R, D and the In-betweens

In this episode of R, D and the Inbetweens PGRs Belinda (Dan) Li and Irene Gomez talk to other PGRs about being a Postgraduate Teaching Assistant. This epsiode contains interviews with: Lu Yang Lisanne Moline Umas Jin Riadh Ghemmour Chris Grosvenor Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcript   Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development, and everything in between.   Hello, and welcome to the latest episode rd and the in betweens. I'm your host, Kelly Preece. And for now on rd in the in betweens is going to be taking a slight change, of course, and the reason for this is that I have started a new job. I was in a researcher development team and my job was to support our postgraduate researchers with their training and development. But I've just moved to join our academic development team doesn't sound that different. And in reality, I suppose it isn't. But I'm working on the other side of things. Now I'm working to develop and deliver doctoral supervision training. So I'm helping our supervisors become even more excellent in the support of our postgraduate researchers. So as such, the content of R D and the in betweens might be a little bit different and might be a little bit more teaching focused, a little bit more supervision focused, but it will fundamentally still be about researchers, their development and everything in between. So for this first episode, I've actually got a guest episode from two PGRs, Belinda L, and Irene Gomez, and they ran a project in the summer, talking to our postgraduate teaching assistants about their experiences   Welcome to our PTA podcast, aiming to improve your experiences. We are a group of PTAs from a range of courses and backgrounds with various different experiences. We have been working on a project this summer to share inspirational PTA experiences and top tips. We hope this will help both incoming and current PTAs have the best experience possible.   Lu Yang is a second year PhD student in the Department of Modern Languages and Cultures, she teaches speaking seminars for intermediate Chinese. My first tip is don't be afraid of your students, because if you are afraid, they will find it. The second is pay more attention to those shy students and those that are not catching the lessons because they need more attention and need more help. My top tip is about to take your classmates (and) your student as your friends because we are most near the same age and we are all at the state of learning things. If we just take them as friends, it will release your stress and they will also feel relaxed to talk about your lesson and the content. My teaching style is more friendly and because my lesson is about the oral speaking. So, I think a friendly atmosphere will make them more encouraged to like practice and rather than worrying about any potential mistakes. My lesson is about the Chinese oral speaking. So to prepare my lesson and I usually split the whole lesson for like three parts. The first part is mainly designed by the textbook, questions on the textbook. And the second part usually combined events happened recently, or like holidays, Chinese holidays. I will design some key words about it. And the third part would be like open questions around the lesson they learned on the textbook. And I usually prepare for around an hour. But if I need to search some online videos about the lesson, it will take about two hours. I am a film student, so I tried to add some film cuts and some short videos in the class. And I always like to try to encourage them to talk more and don't worry about the mistakes. So, I think it will make a relaxed class.   Lisanne Moliné  is an American filmmaker and a PhD researcher. She trained at SUNY Purchase in New York and she holds a Master's in international film business from the London Film School from University of Exeter. She is currently finishing her PhD in Film by Practice and her research is centered around transmedia.   Thank you so much for joining me in this interview. So Lisanne what would be the three top tips you would give to an incoming PTA   Thank you, Irene for having me.   The PTA scheme was is a great experience. And some of the key points that I found were at the forefront of my whole experience was three particular points, I think would anyone coming into the program would be fixated on thinking about it. And that would be: Diversity and preparation, accessible learning and transferable skills. So what I found, one of the helpful things to do from the very beginning is to journal your experiences. So I actually pulled out my week one, one page notes on my experience of how it went. And week two, and I'll read a little bit for you. So you get an idea of what it was like for me when I came into the program teaching and how these three topics really ended up galvanizing in and helping me through this journey. So, week one, and I put it first term of teaching diary. So this is what I said to myself, I was quite nervous to have to go at it alone. Despite going through the UK shadow scheme, I wasn't so much concerned about the students, though being able to academically engaged with them was on my mind, especially with the cultural differences. I was worried about University politics. Not to say or do the wrong thing. Having come from a conservatory with hands on practical training. I didn't want to cross the line in how Uni wanted and intended the seminar modules to be delivered. A bit of walking on eggshells for me. I made the cliché blunders of dropping all my handouts on the floor. But recovered The two classes were sweet. yet different. The first class was mostly writers very much keen on the creative takeaways. In contrast, the other class was mostly taking the seminar because it was interesting. I did have a few students tell me they enjoyed the seminar, one following me out the door. I think it was a good sign. So that was my first week. And what I found and when I was speaking about the university politics and different cultures is that we all come with our unique experiences and of what education looks like. And the students also are very diverse coming into the seminar classes and the lectures with certain expectation expectations. Trying to balance those experiences that are unique that you're bringing to the table. And at the same time, not overstepping or not delivering on the expectations others are anticipating is, is a, it's a bit of a juggle. But what I found was going to the first topic of importance was diversity in preparation really helped me to close that gap. Look at what the syllabus  is and what was going to be covered. But read the material, read  all of the material that the students are expected to be preparing, and it's a lot it really is, you're going to see that you're going to have empathy for the students. Because you're, you're preparing for one module, but they have several. And the other thing too, is that by understanding what the handouts are, and the materials are, that are being presented and covered, then you're going to be able to extract information to be able to communicate with those students and pivot more on a dime in the in the classroom setting. The other thing I did was I attended lectures that again, depending on how much time you have, I made it a point to attend the lecture so that not only am I informed on the material, but the students are actually seeing me there. And I found it a very nurturing experience, and I recommend it to anyone that has an opportunity to do it. I would definitely do it again for sure.   Umas Jin has recently graduated from his PhD study, which was on Virginia Woolf and neuro psychology. He has years of his teaching and research experience in the higher education sectors, both in Taiwan and the UK. He is currently working on his publication of his doctoral thesis and seeking a research post. The only tip I would give to new PTAs is enjoyment. Try to enjoy yourself. And when you're preparing for the course, to learn it like as if you were a student, to prepare it as if you are the module leader. Right. I really don't have that many tips about developing teaching style for new PTA. But one thing I had to say is that when we are teaching, we are learning. We are still students, postgraduate students, which means we are still learning. Well, everyone is a student anyway. We learn, we teach, and we teach, and we learn. So, I think rather than think that you have to know everything, think about you're learning things with your students. So yeah, so I just think we come in enjoying the courses, try to enjoy the course as they do. And relax, and enjoy teaching, and you're inspiring the next generation. And then in the future, they will thank you for anything you told him in the course, in a seminar. I will watch the recorded lecture before I prepare for the seminar. And I will check the teaching materials on ELE. And it will benefit me from understanding the course and the content. Well, I actually don't know how I develop my teaching style as a PTA. I just thought that it will be nice to think about incorporating the teaching materials within our life. One from a literature background, literature inspired by the author's life, so a lot of literary texts and theories, they are actually closely linked to the author's life or the philosophers' life. So, I thought it would be nice to help and encourage my students to think about how they combine their academic aspect of life with their personal life. And then so that they can feel related to the contents, and they can feel comfortable to talk about some sensitive topics that are related to the teaching materials. So, I think that is how I got my inspiration for my teaching style. As I said earlier, I will not spend that much time on preparing for a PTA job. And I will definitely expand my research to the PTA role content. And again, enjoy while you can prepare for the course.   So I'm Riadh Ghemmour. I hold a PhD in education. So basically, I'm based at the Graduate School of Education at the University of Exeter. And my research interests are critical pedagogy, decolonization, social justice, education, anti-racism, and everything related to EDI (inclusivity, diversity and inclusion). And I'm a postgraduate teaching associate as well, based at GSE. I work part time at the Royal Central School of Speech and Drama in London, which is half University, which is part of the University of London, but also, it's a Conservatoire. And my role really is about overseeing the international students experience in terms of learning development. So, I'm the international students learning skills coordinator, where I work with international students, I have one to one sessions with them, group discussions. I do facilitate also like academic and learning sessions with them in terms of preparing for visitations, academic writing, critical thinking and so on. So, it's been a fun experience so far.   Thank you very much for your sharing. I know you're one of the first PTAs at the Graduate School of Education. Would you like to share your experience about that? And do you have any suggestions for the coming PTAs?   Yeah, that's true actually. I'm one of the first cohort of GSE PTAs. And it's such a privilege to be part of a brilliant team of other PTAs, colleagues, staff, and so on. I think, at the start, nobody knew because it was our first attempt our first trial to test, experiment and make mistakes. I think, at first, nobody knew what was going on, what we were supposed to do, and stuff like that. But I think, the overall experience has been really productive and fruitful. I think what really made this experience fantastic is the collaboration, the willingness to work together, the willingness to receive constructive criticism, feedback and act upon that feedback from, you know, from our line manager, for example. And I think we found that platform where we acted upon our agency as PTAs, we used our lived experiences as students, but also PhD candidates. We use our lived experience as educators and teachers because we taught before. We made use of our research interests to shape the whole GSE provision and practice. So really, overall, I think, working closely with staff and students has been fantastic really. And I really enjoyed working with them, but also developing my skills in terms of holding spaces for students, co facilitating sessions with another PTA. So, there is a lot of like teamwork, and, you know, and so on. So, it was a really great experience.   Thank you very much for your sharing. It sounds like a meaningful experience indeed. Would you like to probably give some useful suggestions or your experience sharing when it comes to, you know, the new PTAs not knowing what to do when they first start the role?   I've got a couple of suggestions. I think the first suggestion is really to ask questions when you don't know when you feel confused. I think a lot of people obviously do not expect you to do the whole work. So do ask questions if you don't know how to do it, or who to go to to ask questions and so on. I think right from the start, do ask your line managers, previous PTAs, like any questions related to the job into the role. I think that's the first suggestion. And the second suggestion is really be part of the community. Don't work on your own. Create relationships with other PTAs, with colleagues. Expose yourself as well. Work in teams as well. Collaborate, listen to and understand other perspectives. Obviously, like, do suggest your own ideas, your own perceptions, find compromises. Really like just put yourself out there. I think that collaborative aspect is really crucial to make the work impactful and meaningful, not only for PTAs and staff, but also for students and the whole GSE community.   Today we interviewing Dr. Chris Grosvenor. Chris is a former PT and a newly appointed Lecturer in Film Studies at the University of Exeter. He has recently published a book based on his PhD research, which examines the importance of cinema in the frontline during World War One.   Hi, Chris, thank you for joining us. So how was your experience as a PTA? I know you did it for a few years.   Yes, so I started on the PTA program around 2016. So quite a while ago now, but I shadowed one of my former teachers, strangely enough in film studies. And I shadowed her for a term on that PTA program. And then ended up teaching a seminar in the final week of term. Alongside that I was completing all of the LTHE requirements and workshops and exercises and coursework on that side of things. But definitely the most informative, the most fun, I guess was actually being in that classroom setting with the person I was shadowing and learning.   So for an incoming  PTA what tips would you give to them?   So for anyone joining or coming into the PTA program, I think my general advice would be to get stuck in be prepared to you know, do a good bit of prep and research and reading around the course or module that you are shadowing, you may not be the one teaching it every week, you may just be watching someone else teach it to seminars you to teach it on a lecture but you know, making sure that you're as sort of intellectually engaged as your students and you can learn from them as much as possible as well as the teaching what's working well what doesn't work.  When other students are engaged, when are they perhaps not as engaged. So yeah, get stuck in with the module content, of course content. I think, learn as much as you can from the tutor that you're shadowing but realize as well, that they may have a particular approach that doesn't necessarily gel with your own ideas for teaching. You know, there are all sorts of ways to go about teaching a subject and no two ways the same. And just because you watch or see your tutor set about teaching a task or communicating to their students in a certain way, doesn't necessarily mean that that's the best way for you. So prepare to you know, think outside the boxes a bit and don't take that tutors approach as gospel, you know, bring your own spin on it. Be prepared to sort of offer a different take or a different type of approach. What other tips?  I think being able to, or being prepared, I should say, to teach beyond your comfort zone as it was whether that's the comfort zone of your current research or your own sort of backgrounds in whatever field of study you have, you've had experience in chances are when you first start teaching, you'll be put on a module or a course that is actually quite removed from what your own research interests might be. So be prepared for that. And don't be scared by that. I think in many ways  being able to teach beyond your own sort of specialism as scary as it might sound, gives you the best sort of standing as an early career teacher, you know, being able to cover a larger remit of topics and subjects and shows that you have a kind good all round knowledge and experience as a teacher. And the other tip I'd say is just make sure that your doctoral research or you know, your day job as it were doesn't get overshadowed by your PTA role, obviously, you know, you need to be making sure you have the time to commit to any PTA placements or teaching experiences that you can. But the day job as it were, the doctoral research should be the priority. And that should that should always be the case, if you find that you're spending more time with the PTA material or that more is being asked of you, you know, you are perfectly within your rights to say,No, I'm not sure I can take on that third module or third seminar group, right, this second. I'm comfortable with one, I'm comfortable with two. And don't let that sort of dictate effectively what should always be your main focus even if the teaching element does sound exciting, and something you do want to get engaged with which obviously, obviously, you can just don't let it roll, roll everything I guess.   Thank you so much for all your tips and sharing your experience with us. We really appreciate it. Thank you for listening to our podcast. We really hope you enjoyed it. We hope you also enjoy the rest of our episodes, and good luck with your PTA work.   And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

This series of podcast episodes will focus on Decolonising Research, and feature talks from the Decolonising Research Festival held at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. The sixteenth epsiode of the series features University of Exeter PGR Olabisi Obamakin interviewing academic and Exeter graduate Dr. Victoria Omotoso. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcription   00:09 Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest, about researchers development, and everything in between.   00:31 Hello, and thank you for tuning in to this online resource. Today we are joined by our very own Dr. Victoria Omotoso, who just graduated with a PhD in theology from the University of Exeter. So   00:47 thanks for having me, I would say yeah, it's been a long road. COVID has been hard for everyone. But um, yeah, finally got back graduation. I've been doing about   01:02 a hard journey. Or you look beautiful the day one away? Yeah, tell us a little bit about yourself. And what your research questions that your research interests are?   01:17 Yeah. So hi, everyone. Yeah, I'm Victoria. I was a PhD student in candidate at the University of Exeter. Prior to that I had done my degree in my undergrad in music and theology at Leeds, and then went on to do a master's in Biblical Studies at the king's King's College London. And it was there were really all the kind of first seedlings were sown, I guess, into me looking at theology, and media and Jesus films and relationships into that. And that then led me to be able to do kind of drop of appraisal, and yes, come to Exeter to do my research. So I was just born in London, Nigerian ancestry. But I grew up in South Africa. So a lot of my kind of cross cultural upbringing has really informed my research and the pathway and the trajectory that ended up taking. So my research was looking at audience reception. And that means like how audiences respond to a, you know, a film or a piece of art or any of those things. So, I was looking at cross cultural audience reception from audiences in the UK and in South Africa, because of my own kind of personal connections to those two geographical locations, and looking at how they respond to Jesus in film, and specifically, a black Jesus and a more westernized Jesus. And using those as parallels to compare and contrast how people responded to Jesus and film. And a lot of it actually, what came out of that was understanding really how our own worldviews our own contexts, and cultural locations really influence how we perceive Jesus and films and how we kind of construct our own perceptions in light of our own biases and assumptions of, of what we may or may not have known. So a lot of my research involves there a lot of my research involves, currently, my research interests involve a lot of kind of like decriminalisation work, postcolonial work looking at how, because a lot of my work was focused in the Global South, looking at how colonialism, even in film has made a massive impact in kind of a cultural subconsciousness of how people perceive a white Jesus. So yeah, that's kind of where my interests lie.   04:09 So your PhD thesis was entitled image in Jesus, ethnic identities and cultural dynamics in the luminaire project, the gospel of Mark and the Son of Man. So tell us a little bit more about that, like how you did your research and and what your findings were.   04:26 Yeah. So, a lot of it was like I said, based on audience reception and cultural ethnography studies. So, how it was set up was I had some main questions, you know, like how, to what extent you know, how do people respond to views and film, to what extent are a kind of use for themes so like, fidelity to the text for example, which aims to determine How closely related These films were to the biblical texts that they were aiming to kind of emulate. And music and gender and all those things. And ethnicity, of course, were kind of the four major themes I used as lens. So with that came setting up focus groups in, in the UK, and in South Africa. And again, just showing them parallel versions of these two Jesus's that I had. And yeah, their findings were really interesting. In the UK, a lot of the audiences were middle about, like middle class, British white people, and in South Africa, it was very much a mix, you had white South Africans, black South Africans, but the majority of the pupils in Africa were mainly black South Africans, that were responding to these focus groups. So I had them set up and ask them to kind of, yeah, just tell us what tell me what they thought. And it was interesting, because the, the white South Africa, the white, British, excuse me, the white British audience, very much preferred the black Jesus, which is from the film Son of Man. And they were very much like, you know, this is great, couldn't stand or Western version, they thought it was boring, they thought it was clinical. Whereas complete opposite in South Africa, particularly with the black audiences who were very vocal, that they could not have a black Jesus. On screen, they were just like, this is absolutely not what you should be. This is completely, you know, not what the Gospels are, they much prefer the Western Jesus. So, you know, begs the question as to, you know, when we actually start to strip back people's historical locations is, you know, in a nation like South Africa, which has a lot of tension with race and ethnicity, historically, when you place a savior into the paradigms of a black body, what are the implications of that? And what does that have subconsciously? And also, on the flip side, when we come to the global north, you know, you know, the, our suspicions of exoticism and suspicion as a Western liberalism, that makes something Oh, because it's different. It's much more preferred. So, you know, these tensions are so nuanced and on both sides of the spectrum, but it was a very kind of interesting study to undertake. Yeah.   07:47 This just sounds absolutely fascinating. But what what role do you think that colonialism may have played in the perception of the South African audience, I haven't had that yet.   08:00 It's interesting, because obviously, I'm dealing, I'm using film as a lens and as a tool to be able to kind of decipher what's going on in terms of post colonial implications of this. And it's, you know, it's amazing to see how that dominant image of the white Jesus has been so much globalized and commercialized. And we think way back, you know, with Christianity and, and the raw Christianity played in say, this is the image of Christianity, which is a white Jesus, and bringing out over over to the continent, of Africa, of course, and in these communities that were taught Christianity, they were also taught all the iconography, they were also taught, you know, not just doctrines, but iconography is a ways of living. And it was a whole another culture shipped, when Christianity came, and part of that culture shift was the images and what were these images, images, you know, overweight Jesus, and that has been so much ingrained into our subconscious, that even film, you know, the films that were played had always been overweight, Jesus, you know, of this generation of people growing up, it's only in kind of recent years now, I think filmmakers have started to cover a consciousness and, and audiences themselves as the importance of audiences is that audiences themselves have that agency to be able to, you know, kind of propagate that, what they want this authenticity. So only in more recent years, overseeing kind of filmmaking develop is something that will be a bit more authentic. But, you know, it's a long way to still go for people to still kind of shed that colonial image and the effects of that, particularly in a nation Do you like South Africa?   10:02 Yeah. So with regard to D colonialism, and theology and film, and just in general, what would you like to see in the next 10 to 20? years?   10:13 Yeah, I'd like to see a complete culture shift. And and I'm I mean, culture shift, I mean, that kind of opening and recognizing of what we have what we mean, when we're talking about, you know, decolonizing theology in itself, you know, me as a good, clean of decolonization and film, and there's so many industries and disciplines and departments that kind of need to recognize, and I think, of course, they said, you know, the first step is actually recognizing that these systems are in place, and that, you know, you need to be able to, because you're, again, you're working with people it's going to be, you're always going to know that there is always going to be opposition and challenges and delays into wanting this change. But I think if collectively, people start to actually realize, well, you know, there are other epistemologies, for example, there are other ways of knowing there are other, you know, kind of attractions through which we can extract meaning and gain knowledge. And I think I'd like, I'd love to see that in in, you know, in our field in the next, you know, 10, to 10 to 20 years, just seeing that kind of appreciation for voices of the voices, other points of view. And it's not just a case of, including, you know, it's not just a case of including non white scholars into the curriculum, or including, you know, non white sources, but actually having a broad dialogue, you know, with with, with various voices and various kinds of points of knowledge through which we can all I think, learn something and gain something, rather than just making it transformative, I think. I'd love to see that in theology of theology to be more transformative, more on the frontlines of what we're doing. And part of that is understanding that there's a decolonizing process that has to go through, for us to be able to actually just interact with the greater representations of society, we need to be able to represent what society looks like, and society does not look wait fully white, and society is not fully male. And society is not in a straight white male Christians. That's not what society represents. And I think theology has a very much I see as a very much a prophetic goal, actually, to be able to break through those barriers and actually engage with the more wider representations of the other voices that we have in society. Wow,   13:02 that's amazing. Just finally, that the last question. So with regard to decolonization, what would you also like to see in the kind of Academy at large in other departments in higher education with regards to decolonization? Yeah,   13:18 I mean, it's hard to kind of imagine what that would look like, in reality, but I think similarly, similarly to what I said, in terms of, in society, what I would like to see as well is again, like, you know, having opportunity for, you know, kind of ethnic minority students, and giving them I think, when they, you know, when you see an ethnic minority, you know, and, and women that's in academia, and in a high position, as they are definitely influences kind of the younger generation, that something is possible. And I think, even that, in itself is a deep learning process, just looking at the faces that are there, that it already is also part of decolonizing you know, departments and systems and just see who is in the room, who are the people that are, you know, sat at the table, so to speak. And I think, encouraging that even from like, right, from under, you know, from from from high school and college, like, encouraging, you know, other ethnic minorities, you know, white working class, like encouraging these young people to be able to actually aim and I want to aim for higher aim for change and whatever discipline they decide to go for, I think, would be, again, another great shift in our departments. So when we look at a staff, when we look at who are the staff in our department is not again, all just one template, but rather kind of a representation like it says, of society and with all that beautiful representation and diversity, you know, come so many different ways. Um, understanding and all of that can only gain traction for the better.   15:07 Thank you, Victoria. I mean, yeah, like your your career has really been inspired, inspired me and seeing you in the academy has, you know, inspired me so much. So thank you so much. So how can we keep in touch with you like, what are your social media handles? Yeah. And what are you up to you? What can we expect from you in the next couple of   15:27 years? Yeah, well, yeah, you can catch me. I'm mostly on Twitter, as, as in victory. So you know, as in victory, that's where you can catch me. Kind of on social I tweet a lot about, yeah, just things going on in the world, and academia and stuff like that. Yeah, I mean, some pretty exciting things coming up. Most particularly is that my PhD has been accepted by Bloomsbury publishing house. Thank you. Thank you. So yeah, a lot of my next couple months at least, will be kind of dealing with that and working with that. Coming, you know, to exercise or to do a few talks here and there. So yeah, so normally, I treat everything I'm doing so yeah, you can kind of keep up keep up with victory. I don't know. Well, I was gonna think of a catchy name. You know, like Keeping Up With The Kardashians kind of thing. But I don't have one. So you can just follow me and find out what I'm up to.   16:30 Amazing. So yeah, thank you so much for joining me. Thank   16:33 you so much,   16:35 lady. So yeah, we're very excited to see what you do in the next couple of years. And we're excited for your book when it comes out.   16:43 Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's been so great. Always love. Coming back to Exeter for my first love. Family. See you. Thank you. Thanks.   16:59 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

This series of podcast episodes will focus on Decolonising Research, and feature talks from the Decolonising Research Festival held at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. The fifteenth episode of this series features University of Exeter PGR Olabisi Obamakin interviewing Exeter academic Professor Louise Lawrence.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcription   00:09 Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host, Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest, about researchers development, and everything in between. Hello,   00:33 and thank you for joining us on this online resource. My name is Bisi Obamakin, and I'm a theology PhD student at the University of Exeter. Today, we are joined by an amazing New Testament scholar, and author of many books, including her newest book, creating compassionate campuses, Professor Louise   00:50 Lawrence. Thank you for joining us, I really, really appreciate it like a really, really big   00:57 thanks for inviting me.   00:59 So yeah, a little bit about yourself what you do and what your research passions are.   01:03 Yeah, so my name is Louise Lawrence, as you as you said, I'm Professor of de testament interpretation here in Exeter. My research interests I work in New Testament studies. So particularly sort of cross cultural anthropology, with biblical texts, but latterly, for the last sort of decade, I've been really interested in the ways in which religion and sacred texts sort of sensor bodies and minds and particularly around disability studies, so yeah, so that's, that's my interests,   01:42 for the people that are watching that maybe they've just gotten a PhD or whatever they're doing, right at the beginning of their career, they're not socialized into any institution, what would you say to them? What would you employ to them? With regards to pedagogy and decolonization? And that kind of thing?   01:57 I think, I mean, well, you're a brilliant example of this. And you should probably say a bit about how you're, I'm picking, I'm picking New Testament studies. But, you know, I'll let you talk about you've got more important things to say on this, I think that you must be true to yourself, you know, and in a sense, if it matters to you, it matters. And if you identify in justice, even if other people haven't seemed to be able to have recognized or have sort of been made conscious of that, then call it out. And I think, I think as an early career, academic, you can, there's a very well known thing called imposter syndrome, I shouldn't be here. I don't look like I should be here. I don't sound like I should be here. I'm not clever enough. But everyone goes through those things. Everyone feels those things, it, it's a very natural part of it. And that says probably more about the in hospitality of academia, or the perceived sort of sense of academia than it does about you. And you just have to have the confidence to have that voice. I you say about your, your ways in which you're sort of challenging the Eurocentrism of Biblical Studies. Yeah, and finding a voice that's been lost or not even recognized. It's that that that no curriculum that you've kind of picked up?   03:26 Yeah, I guess it's just kind of coming into the field and not seeing myself and not really knowing where I fit. And thinking, obviously, recognizing that I was born in the UK, and I do have a Western education. But not really fully feeling like I fit into that box. And then, you know, thinking, oh, yeah, I'm African. That's what I am. And they're not fully fit in that box, either. So yeah, I think bringing a kind of Nigerian British kind of hybrid viewpoint, it's been interesting because it has highlighted things that I don't think anyone has really thought about. Things that I've experienced, and I've walked in my life that are just so normal to me that I guess it's kind of almost a bit, that it was a bit kind of weird to think that it's new, like, why is it new to you? You don't know that? Yeah. Yeah, it's quite unique experience. And I think it's been quite quite privileged, bringing that to theology and introducing new ways of knowing and new new lenses of knowledge. Yeah.   04:27 Similar. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. So you're sort of Afro pm perspective as, as brought out so much of the text. And, and so, so much that that of assumptions that have just been accepted as liberal within interpretation, and actually, you know, should they be, I understand what a kind of transformative moment working with the British deaf community because they innocence very much. Made me unlearn things. So I mean, being an academic, you're very bookish i And I'm, I'm working on New Testament interpretation, I, you know, everything's about tanks. And suddenly to be in a context where I should say, You deaf community with a capital D is a cultural group that yeah, that see themselves very much as politicized, you know, death is not deficit death, yes, death is like an ethnic kind of identity marker with traditions, you know, and, and most crucially with their own language that is not to be written or heard. And so, the ways in which they actually modified my understanding of what Bible was, was really interesting. And, you know, in a sense, a gestural performative Bible, actually, for history has probably more of a resonance with with a context, when there was large, low literacy in the ancient world, you know, and so, those kinds of assumptions, but also the way in which they picked up on parts of the text, which I would never have kind of, or interpreters that were very audio centric, would never have picked up on. So one example is there's a story in the New Testament of Jesus healing a deaf man without speech, and the end of the story, it says, And the man spoke plainly, and in the first sort of reactions to this text, one of the group pointed out that that this person could couldn't have been born deaf. And that Jesus wasn't sort of seeing deafness as a bad thing, but needed to be healed or normalized. It was just that this person had been able to hear and then lost his hearing. And I was like, Well, why did you come to that conclusion? He said, Because he speaks plainly. So he's, he's learned spoken language. So you almost like modified that idea that that spoken language is better than being deaf and completely sort of changed it and actually healing narratives for for disability who are themselves, you know, like a colonized group, by the hearing world colonized their language, you know, you must learn this way. There are allied experiences, I think, with the deaf community and, and colonization, and they very much sort of resistant and refigured those those elements, and I think, yeah, and really opened up a whole new sort of avenue for for of understanding of the stories and traditions,   07:45 that is really powerful. I hadn't even thought about that before, like, wow,   07:49 well, most, I don't think I found from looking at common cheese from the 1800s. Right through no one really picks up that at all, most commentators just said, this is a straight healing story, obviously, you know, it's fulfilling prophecy and prophecy is very able that the deaf will hear the blind will see. And, and they completely kind of, yeah, went against that and, and just shows how norms just become complete status quo and accepted. Yeah, how different viewpoints can completely make you unlearn those? Yeah. Wow, I   08:27 think let me through amazing insights and this discussion. Just before we close, like, what exactly are you doing at the moment? What are you working on?   08:37 Yeah. Oh, that's really nice question. I've been doing a lot of marking of exams at the moment. I'm actually working with colleagues in psychology on a big project on student mental health, or this whole institution approaches to student wellbeing. And actually, you know, it may seem rather unconnected to what we're talking about, but I actually, you know, what, the medical model of mental illness I think, you know, has a place there are, of course, students that need that, that that help but actually, the social and cultural model of, of, of mental health and well being, I think, includes a lot about feeling culturally included, about feeling a sense of belonging, about feeling, a sense of being represented. And many of the sort of stories that we've we've we've been shared by students in this institution, and we're working with six other Russell Group institutions, but very much kind of, they are aware of how they curricular you know, their well being isn't something you can just individualize. Actually, it's about the whole student experience. And that includes what they're studying how they're studying how the how they're kind of learning community See makes them feel and I think, kind of cognitive, epistemological justice and feeling that, you know, like you're saying that there is representation that your voice is heard, all of these kinds of elements are things that can really enhance a sense of belonging and, and a sense of, of wellbeing for students. So yeah, so that's, that's kind of the the big project on on my specific New Testament, I'm going to start looking at, and it's only sort of the very beginnings, but I'd like to do a project on age and ageism. In in New Testament texts and interpretation, that too, I think it's very cross culturally constructed. Just to give you an anecdote, but before I finish, talking about global north south norms, what's really interesting is that I've got a postdoc that's working out in Namibia on a project on religion and inclusion in Namibia. And we had to go through all the ethics approval to work with Human Subjects through Exeter. And actually, you know, 18 is kind of the constructed age of adulthood in our context, but in other contexts, that that's a very meaningless kind of number. And it just shows how even up construction of the person or the thinking person or the person that is able to give consent is a construction. And actually, you know, if we're going to be an institution that thinks carefully about how it works with partners in different contexts, it needs to take seriously the ways in which different contexts construct, construct research, and it's sort of, yeah, voices in different sorts of ways. Similarly, anonymity was a really big thing in, in our ethics process in Exeter, as our participants in Namibia and our informants were really, really keen that their name was put, you know, if I'm saying something, I want my name to be in it. And, and we had to fight quite hard that those names were appended to the voices that we were given. A name in is, has also been used in colonial practices, you know, changing names or forced change of names. And so, so names, personhood and identity, you know, again, really important is to be very sensitive to the ways in which people, you know, are attached to names and more names represented. So yeah, so in our publications, we have our informants names, which is very different, I guess, to too many publications that go through ethics approval here.   12:55 I love it, guys. Watch this face what Lawrence's new book of passionate is. Thank you so much for joining like you. You're amazing. You guys watching are inspired. I mean, I've learned so much already. And it's like it's half an hour talk. Yeah, we'll leave it at that. So see you. Thank you   13:14 so much. And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

This series of podcast episodes will focus on Decolonising Research, and feature talks from the Decolonising Research Festival held at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. The fourteenth episode of the series features University of Exeter PGR Olabisi Obamakin interviewing researcher Jemima Kola-Abodunde.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcription   Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between.   00:31 Hello, and thank you for tuning in to this online resource. My name is Bisi Obamakin and I'm a second year PhD student at the University of Exeter. Today we are joined in discussion by my really good friend Jemima Kola-Abondunde she has nearly 10 years of experience in the NHS. She's a physiotherapist by background and has worked across various settings as a clinician. She's me, MSc in public health, from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. And she's also worked in South Africa. Currently, she works in digital transformation and primary care, exploring how patient outcomes can be improved using digital tools. So thank you so much for joining Jemima. I really appreciate it.   01:14 Thank you. Thanks for having me.   01:16 So yeah, tell us a little bit more about your work. Yeah. what your interests are.   01:21 Yeah, I think you've kind of summarize really well. I think ultimately, my interests are wide and all within health care. And I guess the main focus is about optimizing health care delivery on a global scale for patients and ensuring that those that are most vulnerable are not left behind.   01:46 So that sounds amazing. Yeah, thank you for joining this decolonial festival. So yeah, what does decolonization mean to you?   01:57 Yeah, so this is a really big question. I think when I was looking up what it meant in terms of its definition. You know, the internet said, it's a process by a kind of which colonies become independent of the colonizing country. But for me, personally, I think it's really just going back to one's original roots, and identity. So whilst you know the colonizer might be absent, physically, in some places, to me, decolonization refers to the kind of the mental, social, and cultural independence and sort of disentanglement from invaders and reestablishment to one's original identity. Thank you so much. So,   02:47 so you're working in the field of public health in the NHS. And so why is decolonization important specifically in your field?   02:58 So, I think, when we talk about decolonization in the NHS and in the public health, I think, for me, kind of a refers to a lot, it has a lot to do with health inequalities. And it refers to, you know, inclusion refers to diversity of voices, ensuring that everybody has the same level of care. And that's not happening at the moment, you know, if we think about kind of the workforce in itself, the kind of the beam brackets, I appreciate, not everybody likes that terminology, but about 22% of the NHS staff are within, you know, would kind of classify themselves as beam and that's quite significant. So, you know, their voices need to be heard, as well as they need to be treated fairly. But we've seen kind of in the past that that hasn't always been the case. If we take the case study of COVID. That, in itself, showed us glaringly the health inequalities amongst minority ethnic groups with higher rates of death amongst, you know, black Africans, Bangladeshis because of a lack of understanding, lack of trust from patients public side. So yeah, there was a lot of thing happening, lots of things happening there from a kind of a public health and NHS perspective that ties back to kind of colonial roots, you'd say.   04:40 Yeah, and you know, just thinking about that topic. It kind of made me think about the COVID vaccine, for example, and how I know within the black community, there was a lot of skepticism with regard to the vaccine. And it made me think about, just historically how research has been conducted in Africa. And that has kind of almost experimented on, on black bodies. So how far do you feel like that has influenced people's kind of skepticism around the vaccine and that kind of thing?   05:14 Yeah, I think that has a huge part to play in all of this. I think fundamentally, I mean, I'm sure lots of people have lots of different reasons. So I can't speak for everybody. But I think distrust was a huge part of the reason why there was poor uptake amongst black and minority ethnic groups. Off the back scenes, talk about, you know, kind of case studies like the Tuskegee syphilis study, and, and Yetta lacs, and some other sort of public health studies that were done on black bodies. It's no surprise that people are quite apprehensive about taking you taking vaccines and so on. So I think that definitely has a part to play and why there was a lot of apprehension about certain groups of people.   06:13 Yeah, it just made me think about Yeah, historically, how research research has been conducted in, in Africa and how, yeah, there have been recent really unethical, really unethical experiment. Yeah, experiments and research that has been conducted. That is not okay.   06:35 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, it's really, really unfortunate, because, you know, public health, you know, you could say fundamentally has colonial roots. And so that, that kind of fosters and encourages the white savior syndrome, people parachuting into certain countries, you know, this, the power dynamics, also has a part to play in, in all this. So a combination of all these different factors without sort of CO production can kind of augment. Just poor practices, really, there's kind of public and global health. And so I think, you know, there are some examples of good practice, here and there. But I think, yeah, I think that's still a fundamental problem in public health, and even, you know, within the NHS, as well. I'm happy to talk about some of the examples of good practice, if you want me to, yeah, that'd be great.   07:45 I'm talking to people listening who might be thinking about doing research in public health, and maybe thinking about doing that in other countries.   07:53 Examples? Yeah, sure. No problem at all. I feel like, you know, you mentioned initially about the work that I did in South Africa. And that was part of a global health fellowship that I did with health, education, England. And that was a partnership. You know, not without its flaws, by all means, but I think it's a better model of working with different countries, you know, they know their context, and what we do know about kind of certain interventions, whether it's locally, nationally or internationally, that context is paramount. And, you know, hearing people's voices on ground is really, really important. So that's a global health fellowship. So you can just Google that, if anybody's interested or kind of you can. I'm happy to chat with anybody about that. At Kings also do a global health partnership as well in Sierra Leone and Congo, sort of a similar model, excuse me. Which Yeah, has kind of reaped good benefit I, I believe, as well on ground in those countries. So yeah, there's that and I think, you know, more sort of nationally bringing it home. There's recent health observatory within the UK that's looking at kind of health inequalities and trying to address them. You know, it was kind of mainly following COVID and everything that happened there. So yeah, there are some conversations. I think, most importantly, it's about moving away from conversations and policies and publications and making some of these thoughts and ideas more actionable.   09:38 So you met you mentioned your wife. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that and work that you were that you were doing whilst you were out there.   09:46 Yeah, so I guess that work there, as I said, was with health education, England, I was a fellow there. I was in the Western Cape base at a hospital and I was looking at the stroke stroke my management's within the hospital and how that can be improved. And so everything I did was very much in partnership with the host, a hospital, with the CEO of the hospital with allied health professionals and clinicians and patients. And so it was really trying to facilitate communication between the healthcare staff, looking at things like a designated stroke board looking at documentation, and how they do certain things. So really, I was at their, you know, I guess service really, and try to address some of that. What was going on with stroke, stroke management, and, you know, following, I guess, the fellowship, it was good in the sense that communication did improve. There's just simple things like having kind of regular meetings between them, and streamlining some of the admin tasks. And, you know, listening to patient voices as well about what they feel is important to them. Yes, so that was kind of really just a quick summary of what what that fellowship was about.   11:15 Yeah, it sounds it sounds amazing. So yeah, so with regards to people that may be listening to this podcast, who may be considering doing research in other countries, in other, maybe other African countries? What What would you say to them? Like, how, what would you say would be good practice, especially thinking about decolonial methodologies and practices? How did they come? How do they, you know, not fall into that white savior? Complex kind of narrative? I think   11:49 what I would ask, I'd ask a couple of questions first, actually. And that would be what do you stand for? What motivates you? What's your version of a better world? And I think once you have some understanding of this, then it should help with your decision making. I'd say also to kind of stay curious of question the status quo. This might not always produce the most favorable outcomes, you know, the short and medium term for your career. But if it aligns with your values, it's easier to do. And I'd say when it comes to incorporating decolonial practices, I'd say, act, listen, and ask Excuse me, listen, and act accordingly. So ask questions. Especially if the power dynamics are skewed in your favor. Ask questions, listen intently to what's being said, and act accordingly.   12:50 Wow, that's really, really powerful. Because I think, yeah, historically, people have gone to different countries with kind of, you know, good intentions, and it worked. But you can end up kind of bringing your own Western ideas and ideologies and imposing it on to a people that might that may not want it. So I love it. It's a bit they should listen. And I think it's really important that people do who do research. Ultimately, first, listen, they listen to their research group, listen to their what they actually want. I think that's really, really important.   13:26 Absolutely, I completely agree.   13:29 Thank you so much for your time to MOMA. I really appreciate it. So yeah, what what's next with you? What is that anything that you're getting up to? And how can we keep kept me keep up to date with that? What are your socials?   13:41 He has? So I guess I'm probably most social on Twitter, so to Jemima K, on Twitter, and on LinkedIn, so just my full names you might not collaborate and do on LinkedIn. And when it comes to what's next, I think it really is just what I'm doing now. I'm looking at sort of kind of innovation, technology improvement, digital inclusion, all those things, but all kinds of within healthcare and how we can improve and optimize it for everybody, including those that are most vulnerable.   14:25 So that sounds amazing. But yeah, thank you so much for joining. I really appreciate it. And thank you, thank you for listening. I hope you feel inspired to find ways in which you can really use decolonial practices within your your research. Yeah. Thank you, Jeremiah. Great. Thank you. Thanks   14:45 for having me.   14:46 Bye. Bye.   14:51 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about research. Just development and everything in between

This series of podcast episodes will focus on Decolonising Research, and feature talks from the Decolonising Research Festival held at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. The thirteenth episode of the series features University of Exeter PGR Olabisi Obamakin interviewing Anu Ranawana, Research Specialist at Christian Aid.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcription   00:09 Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest, about researchers development, and everything in between.   00:34 Hello, and thank you for joining this online resource. My name is Bisi Obamakin. I'm a theology PhD student at University of Exeter. Today, we are joined by Dr. Anu Ranawana, sorry, who is a theologian and political economist. And he's gonna be joining us to discuss the theory of the theory behind decolonization. So thank you for joining this discussion. I really appreciate your time. Yeah, a little bit about yourself, what you do and what your research specialisms are.   01:08 Thanks Bisi, I'm so excited to be here. I absolutely love anything to me, like so. So I'm really honored and excited and all of those sorts of things. So a little bit about me, um, you said, I'm a theologian and political economist, I also always like to say, I'm a postulant theologian, because I'm really kind of still still on my journey. As a theologian, a lot of my work and my background has been in international development as a researcher in international development, but also working in the terms of looking at aspects of global justice. So in a sense, I come I come to theology from sort of from the ground of global justice. So I'm very, very sort of rooted in all of that. So because of that, I wear about six different hats at the moment. I'm a research advisor for Christian Aid. I'm doing a project at the University of St. Andrews, where I'm looking at the importance of storytelling to anticolonial, feminist theology, in Asian culture. And I also teach a little bit at the Queens foundation on aspects of justice, and mission. So I juggle a few different things. And so that's yeah, that's me. Amazing.   02:22 I also wanted to ask you, like, how did you get how'd you get involved with like, decolonial work? And that kind of thing? Like, how did you get involved in it?   02:31 In? Well, I mean, in the sense that I think, I've always been something that I've, I've thought about being someone from Sri Lanka, which was a former, and not only a British colony, but a Dutch colony, and a Portuguese colony. So you always think about who you are as a colonized subject. Because there's the kind of internalization of of, of the colony doesn't really go away, even, even even after independence. So in that sense, I think that's always a part of, of your conversations. And I think, in trying to understand what one's intellectual as well as sort of personal identity, I started reading, as we all do, I started reading people who had been writing on this issue, so people like Sylvia winter, or me, Suzanne, or fennel, who opened up these questions that, you know, you've always been trying to find out about yourself to find out about your country to find out about the global scape. And so, you know, in that sense, one of the things that, that these sort of writers do these thinkers do is that they push you to say, to push you beyond your kind of boundaries of, you know, what do you know, what, what don't you know, like, Are you sure of the ground you stand on? And that's kind of incredible. But I think what's really sort of affirmed me and forced me to be passionate about this kind of work has also been being involved in social movements. Because really, that is where that is where the theory of the world, especially in social movements, the creativity of, of social movements, people who, you know, for longer than you I have been alive, have been asking for a different world. And it still hasn't happened, you know, communities, fish or communities from communities that are at, you know, dealing with the, with everyday problems and crises. And they're so I hate the word resilient for the resilient and they're strong, and they create solidarity in those moments. And so, you think, because of, because of this, we, we need to be working for a different way in which our communities are our existing, you know, and not just existing but thriving. So it's combination of two things.   04:59 So On that note, we're going about, like social movements and stuff. So the topic of this discussion is about the theory of decolonization, and about some of the misconceptions around that. So only people just tell us a little bit about the actual theory behind it, and some of some of the misconceptions that are, that are surrounding that.   05:18 And yeah, thanks, missy. So, so decolonization has sort of two aspects of it, right? There is decolonization that unfolded into phases, politically. So from 1945 through till about the late 60s and 70s, we see, you know, the colonized peoples of of Asia and the Middle East, in Sub Saharan Africa, were claiming their sovereignty. So there is that physical aspect of, of decolonization that occurred in terms of the demands of independence from various colonies, right, against essentially European colonizers. But then the other aspect of decolonization is that it is an unfinished project. Right, which is what, which is the phrase I take from Professor in blue, we get Cheney, who's a South African, academic, he says it's an unfinished project. Because what decolonization is, is as, as an intellectual and emotional and political project is trying to do is not on the kind of protesting coloniality. But it's also saying we need to delink ourselves from the political and knowledge systems that are entrenched within us. Because these knowledges, these politics, were not created. For the flow reverse of people, it was essentially an entrenchment of the European project, it was ascribing humanity as a particular kind of human rights. So that persons of color, especially black persons, were seen as disposable, as things so that land and ocean and air was seen as property, as disposable, as something that you conquer. So these great theories of salvation that the European project gave us, was only for a particular kind of society and a particular kind of version of the human. Yeah, so the first thing we have to do is to delink ourselves from that, to reject it in a way to disobey these, this idea of, of the human. And then the next part of the project is the reclamation of what was lost of what was silenced and what was marginalized, you know, of, of re engaging with indigenous cosmologies, which have always existed, which have have continued to thrive and to live, but have been ignored. You know, it's about building you know, what Sylvia winter calls and ecology of knowledge. You know, which is such a beautiful and brilliant way of phrasing it. I think she's one of my favorite writers and, and thinkers at the moment, in terms of, of how she's hopeful in the project. And I think one of the misconceptions, I think, is that decani ality or decolonization is just about being more diverse. It's not actually it's about transformation. It's about this kind of complete change that we need to go through politically, morally and intellectually, in that sense, and can we do it? I think is the bigger question, right? Can we can we reject what we know? Can we refuse what we know? And in doing that, we might then make things like the university, for example, the university is, I mean, pretty much anyone who works on on decolonization will will say the university is a colonial project. So do we have to reject the idea of the university? And that's a hard thing for those of us who are in the academy to do.   09:30 So what do you think are some of the practical things that need to happen within the academy in order to move forward from the place that we're in?   09:37 I think it's difficult, isn't it? I think that the first thing that we can do in the university is to look at the ways in which we structure and shall I say, center knowledge, right? So um, If you look at this is going to sound really, really crude. I talk about it all the time, but look at funding for research. At the moment, we know that if you want funding for research that comes from research councils, wherever they are based, all that money is concentrated in the global north at the moment. And it's nigh impossible for a researcher based in the global south to become a principal investigator, and to lead their own research project, they are dependent on their colleagues in the north, which means that the power of who designs the project who wants to ask the question, and whose knowledge is paramount, is always going to be in the Global North, even if it's a if it's a southern researcher who's based in the Global North, you you, you don't have you don't know whether that person is in trauma, particularly a lead community, you know, what about, and we also don't disperse, we don't diffuse funding enough, so that those who are non academic can actually lead you know, thought leadership. We don't do that enough. If it was up to me, I would simply give a pot of money to a social movement and say, You guys design the project. You know, that will be I mean, I think one of the that's one of the first and fundamental things that we need to do. Other things that I think we need to do practically in the academy is to walk away from what I call the fetish of English. Wow, you know, so much of academic publishing, what we read all the time is in English, or in you know, European languages. And the thing is, language is, you know, this is why Derrida talks about, you know, there's no outside text, because language structures and places strictures and how we think about things and how we do things, you can take a particular concept, you can take the concept of Ubuntu, you can take the concept of, you know, sorry, I can think of when we say you do a wandering you try you translate your dough into English, you can do that. But what are you losing the translation? Are you actually centering that knowledge? Are you translating it or codifying it into English? So these are things that we need to be thinking about how can we ensure a Pluribus in which we're publishing in different languages, we're engaging in different languages where a loving, you know how many scholars or, or researchers and social movements are not able to really come in and be seen in the spotlight at a university because they're not able to present an English or French or German or, you know, what it is? And I think in so this is such a huge thing. I think one of the big conversations I think, going on in publishing right now, is the fact that a lot of researchers from the global south aren't able to publish because they don't really pass peer review in terms of language or something like that. I actually was asked to review a journal article, and one of the things had to take off on the forum was the quality of English. And I literally wrote, they're saying, someone's quality of English should not be equal to their intellectual capacity. And I think that's something that we can also do, as researchers, as reviewers as members of the epistemic community. Right. So those are just a couple of things off the top of my head. But I know you're an academic as well. So what do you think are sort of the practical challenges the difficulties of working in the, in the university as we know it?   13:36 I think, for me, the biggest, biggest challenge is just the fact that we as a society are kind of socialized into thinking that Western epistemology is the center of the universe. Because I was teaching some Sixth Form students just a couple of days ago, and I was just introducing the concept of African African epistemology and different ways of knowing and bless the hearts it was kind of that sense of like, like, why why is it valid? You know? Yeah. And it was it was genuine it I mean, that they're not being pretentious or that No, no, like, What do you mean, and I think it's the way that we are taught from from when we were young, that this is knowledge, this is how to be intelligent, and it's not contextualized. I think for me, if if I were to change anything I would, especially with young people, I will just make sure that everything we teach them is contextualized. And there's a sense that, you know, Western ways of knowing and western knowledge doesn't need to be contextualized because it's kind of it's the norm. It's not sorry, yeah. And I'll try to explain to the young people but it's not like I'm saying just throw out Western epistemology and Western ways of knowing because as a black, Nigerian, a woman of heritage, a lot of my work at the moment is actually kind of us using kind of Western epistemology. So for example, Um, African epistemology is very much oral, and things are passed down orally, which is amazing. And, yeah, incredible. But actually, so my father, for example, he has so much knowledge and history. And so I'm trying to actually write some of that down. So, you know, it's not that we can't learn from Western epistemology or one thing, check it out. But I think it's about us having everyone have an equal seat at the table, and everyone being able to contribute and learning from each other. There's so much we can learn from African Ways of Knowing Asian ways of knowing. And I think it's just a bit sad at the moment that I feel like our students are almost robbed of that opportunity to have a wider perspective, I think it's important because they're gonna be going into the workplace going to be the future leaders to future politicians, and I think want them to have a narrow view of the world, or a very western centric view. Yeah, that's kind of, but that's my heart, really, for the Academy in the next couple of years, that there can be a real change that young people can actually realize that okay, this is the way I view the world. Great. But let me how you how do you view the world? And that's just as valid as mine?   16:16 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I love that, because that's really very much about, you know, how do we create a Pluribus of knowledge? Right, that sees all of these knowledges, whether they're within an educational institution, or outside of education, whether it's in the West, or it's in the east to the south, as all equal, you know, as all saying something about the condition in which we live, you know, this idea of, I mean, I very much, you know, hold on to a lot of, you know, like Buddhist thinking about the importance of experience as a kind of knowledge, you know, and I think we've moved, we've moved so much away from them. It's wonderful. You talk about, you know, oral cultures and storytelling, so much of the wisdom of our ancestors comes to us through scoring, storytelling, and that's knowledge. It's absolutely knowledge, even though it's not like we have not done a literature review of the gaps in the literature, and presented it. It's beautiful knowledge in its, it's not an experiential knowledge. It's also historical knowledge, isn't it? Right?   17:24 Yeah, definitely. So as we come to a close, what kind of practical things would you say to the people that are watching this, that aim to consider when it comes to colonialism? And whether they're academics and non academics? What would you kind of implore them to, to think about,   17:42 and the first thing I would say is read, read vertically and read horizontally? I find that one of the things that helps me a lot is not only to be reading academic texts, but to be reading novels, reads the novels and the stories of people who have gone through things. And I think that's, that's, that's really, really important. I think it's important for those of us who are academics, to not think ourselves above from social movements, we need to be part of social movements. And we need to be loving those social movements to be teaching us. I think the most important thing is building radical community. Yeah, if you're not in community, you're not listening, and you're not really sharing and learning. You know, I think this was the difficulty, you know, we talked with the academia as a Library Tower. But even in that ivory tower, we don't build community to communities is so incredibly important. And I think it's also about asking you when you're reading a text, or when you're engaging with something, constantly asked that question of what here? Do I not know? Oh, yeah. What here? Do I need to refuse? Like, where is this coming from? You can you know, a lot of black theologians talk about you know, reading with in with a framework of a hermeneutics of suspicion, we can be suspicious of the texts that we're reading, contextualize your texts, all of them, not only the ones that come from, you know, as you'll see from the the non West, contextualize the Western text, so you can still read bass and you can still read can't or you know, Merleau Ponty but contextualize them. Yeah, why not? So good. You know, so those are the things that I think you can do. That's   19:43 a good, so yeah, thank you so much for this discussion. I knew I think it's been so amazing to just realize that actually a lot of this stuff that has been kind of theorized with the academy, but you know, decolonial so actually styling grassroots community, you know, it started in social communities. So, I think thank you so much for inviting us on. I really appreciate it. So what are your social media handles? How can we keep a new level of what you're doing? Are there certain things that you're up to?   20:11 Yeah, I'm on Twitter, although it's a bit crazy my twitter but you're welcome to follow me. It's at a R A, N, A WA and a two, five. So do give me a follow ask me a question. And mostly what I'll do is tell you who the fantastic people are in the world who are doing all of this work and who to read and who to be a part of   20:32 that you're definitely one of those people. No, not really. Thank you for joining us. I really, really appreciate it. And thank you guys for watching. Please check out the website for other really amazing resources of D colonialism. Okay? Bye.   20:46 Thanks. We'll see bye.   20:48 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

This series of podcast episodes will focus on Decolonising Research, and feature talks from the Decolonising Research Festival held at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. The eleventh epsiode of the series will feature Dr Salmah Eva-Lina Lawrence from the International Women's Development Agency with her talk 'What does it mean to do decolonial research?'   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcription   00:09 Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development, and everything in between.   00:32 Hello, and welcome to the final recording of talks in our decolonizing research series. For this final episode, I'm delighted to bring to you Dr. Salmah Eva-lina. Lawrence, with her talk, what does it mean to do decolonial research.   00:48 But first of all, I'd like to acknowledge that I am on the lands traditional lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation of New South Wales in Australia. This is where I normally live and work tonight I'm in Melbourne, I'm actually on the lands of the orangery, people of the Kulin nation. I pay my respects to the elders past, present and emerging of the First Nations peoples of Australia. And I recognize that Australia was founded on the genocide and dispossession of First Nations peoples, and that the land was never ceded. It always was and always will be Aboriginal land. So I'm going to do a short introduction to myself and then head off into my presentation. I am currently the acting co CEO of the International Women's Development Agency in Melbourne, Australia, where I lead our decolonial work interrogating our practices and our approach to international development with the objective of decolonizing how we work when I'm not acting CEO, I'm the director of systemic change and partnerships, and I still have charged in the decolonial work that we do. I'm also an adjunct Fellow at Macquarie University. In my scholarly life, I research decolonial theory, ethics and epistemology. And I draw deeply on my own culture, which is a matrilineal culture in Papua New Guinea, the millbay province of Papa New Guinea, and I use my own culture to frame my decolonial practice. In fact, it's my matrilineal culture, a culture that's at the opposite end of the spectrum of the masculinizing patriarchy of coloniality. That shapes my decolonial practice and shaped my decolonial practice long before I became a scholar of the decolonial. So it's really exciting to see Exeter, uni and other academic institutions start to take the decolonization of research seriously. I started my PhD in 2013 and submitted in 2017. So really not that long ago. But my thesis was grounded in decolonial theory theory I was influenced into radio by any bulky handle, Walter Manolo Ramon, Grossberg well, and reproduce cell, or your NK or women in the mighty Nile cough. I hope these names are familiar to you, if you are decolonial researchers, and Linda Jr. By Smith, who is a Maori from the Pacific region. On the one hand, at the level of the institution where I did my PhD, it was a struggle to talk the decolonial and hold a decolonial space, because it was just so alien at that time. It was marginally easier within my discipline of gender and Cultural Studies, because both feminist and anthropological critical studies were an influence in this domain. And I was able to use this as a bridge into post colonial theories and then into decolonial theory. So where you sit discipline wise, I think will have a large influence on how you're able to negotiate using decolonial theory and being a decolonial researcher.   03:49 In the second year of my PhD, I attended a summer school in Barcelona on decolonizing knowledge and power, I met some of the scholars that I've just named, and where I connected with a community of like minded scholars and activists. It was really enlightening, and energizing. And I highly recommend if you are a PhD scholar candidate, or if you're a master student, I recommend participating in this summer school non slip show a slide at the end with the website name and other resources. I'm going to share my understanding of decolonial research which does touch on the points made by dt and Saskia. I want to explain some concepts that I use that I will be using. I'll then talk about some principles for doing decolonial research or for the way that I do my decolonial research. And I'll talk about some of the practices that I use to support those principles. I'm going to talk for about 25 minutes, I can see that it's 10 parts the hour now and I will try to keep to time, but there will be time for q&a at the end. If there's time and if anybody is interested, I'll be able to share with you my own PhD research and what was decolonial about it So the first concept that I want to talk about briefly is the concept of whiteness. Now, I deliberately use the terms of whiteness West Global North Eurocentric developed world interchangeably. These terms often broadly refer to the same demographic, but within specific academic disciplines, they have nuanced meanings. Whiteness, for instance is used by Critical Race theorists to mean a system or culture that discriminates based on race, specifically, this perceived superiority of white people and their customers. For a detailed look at whiteness from the perspective of a white person, I recommend reading Shannon Sullivan's revealing whiteness, the unconscious habits of racial privilege. So like patriarchy, whiteness describes a particular set of characteristics and practices which have become institutionalized in many parts of the world, including an international development the sector in which I work. And of course, in academia, there would be no Exeter University decolonizing Research Festival, where this is not the case. The other concept that I want to share with you is that you will hear me mention majority world and minority world. I use minority world instead of the west or the global north, and I use majority world instead of developing or the global south. For me this, this terminology more meaningfully and accurately describes the global demographic majority who are located in the Global South. It's also terminology that doesn't infantilized by using the word developing or developed or use majority well, because not only is the global south a demographic majority on this planet, we are also a sociological majority. Our cultures share many things in common in contrast to minority world cultures. Across the Pacific Africa, the Americas and Asia, we are united by an ethics of relational autonomy that underpins our diverse social, economic and epistemic systems, and which contrasts starkly with the competitive individualist ethics, growth based economies and binary knowledge systems of the developed world or the minority world. So it's a political choice for me to use this terminology, political choice to use the term majority world to bring into stark relief, the situation that we all find ourselves living with in at the moment, which is a global power system that is based on minority world ideas. Another concept, I want to talk so I've shared with you the concepts that I'm going to use whiteness majority with minority world owners with a little bit about coloniality and epistemic decolonization before I move on to principles and practices.   08:03 So coloniality, as you would know, is a theory developed by a group of primarily Latin American thinkers which coalesced around 1998 into the modernity coloniality matrix. A theory is a way of explaining the world and as we all know, it can be based on the evidence or not. The basic theory is that European modernity has a dark side, which is rarely if ever acknowledged by those working within modernity. And that Dark Side Includes colonization, enslavement, genocide, expropriation, so it is disingenuous to highlight the advances associated with modernity without acknowledging that these advances have been made possible through colonial reality, a matrix of intertwining systems and technologies of power, such as race hierarchies, gender hierarchies, and the exploitation of and dominance over the natural world. The theories of modernity coloniality have gained traction across the majority world across the global south. Because one, the historical and contemporary evidence for it is overwhelming and to the theory describes more accurately what majority well peoples have experienced and continue to experience than just theories produced by global North theorists. The theory of coloniality is a theory that resonates across the majority one because it actually explicates the historical and contemporary experiences of majority well, people who have experienced colonization, enslavement, genocide, racism. So coloniality scholars and the bulky Hondo and Walter Manolo and others generated the modernity collegiality matrix by stepping outside modernity, to view modernity from an alternative perspective, the perspective of coloniality now this group of scholars to coined the term decolonial ality to describe centering understanding of and interpretation of the social, economic and political world from a perspective outside the Eurocentric frame. meaning of modernity. They also refer that they being the scholars also referred to the coloniality as epistemic decolonization. So what does this tell us about decolonial research or about doing decolonial research? And what relevance to the concepts of whiteness and majority and minority worlds have to doing decolonial research? Since deeper learn reality, you don't have to take a sip of water Excuse me. Since decolonial reality is about epistemic decolonization, it means articulating knowledge from a subject position that is not the colonizer. In the spaces that I work in the colonizer is synonymous with whiteness or Anglo and Eurocentrism. In other words, the minority world assuming that one takes a subject position that is not that a whiteness what does that mean to knowledge creation? Let's take the concept of gender. Only in very recent times has the minority world started to recognize that gender and sexual diversity exists along a spectrum. Yet non binary genders have always been recognized in parts of the majority world, such as in some all weather talk term FAR, FAR female refers to a non binary gender, or Urumqi or your woman in her book, The invention of women, demonstrates how Western gender roles do not map neatly to pre Christian roles in parts of Nigeria, providing one example in which the role of a husband the role of a provider and a projector can actually be fulfilled by a woman. The point is that social concepts generated from within one worldview view will not necessarily translate across other worldviews. A subject position that is not whiteness opens up knowledge is they have been unexplored, ignored or deliberately marginalized. So doing decolonial research means first of all, recognizing that the knowledge produced by the colonizer and through the knowledge production systems of whiteness is not universal. And secondly, it means recognizing that the knowledge produced in this system, the colonizer system is only partial knowledge. Why is it only partial knowledge or primarily because if you look at it from the perspective of logic, logically, in order to present knowledge as universal truths, it makes sense only if the entirety of the population to which that truth is said to apply, has been tested against that truth, and found to comply with it. With 7 billion humans on this planet, this is a feat that's never been accomplished. Researchers use sample populations to test their theories and make inferences based on these minut subsets of humanity. And we know that these sample populations are rarely truly representative of the diversity of the entire human population on this planet.   13:05 So the situation that the majority world lives in is that European customs culture, ways of being and knowing have been projected by Europeans as universal norms. But we've just seen that the gender norms of the minority world which are projected to be universal or not, and a cursory look at the literature on gender written by majority world scholars, such as or Iraqi or women immediately challenges that assumption. So what I'm channeling your attention to here is that the social world looks different, according to your worldview, and your subject position. knowledge that is produced by white men is only partial knowledge because it does not incorporate other subject positions. Knowledge produced by white women and white men is still only partial knowledge. We need knowledge generated from multiple different subject positions to create a picture that is holistic, that is more complete and representative of the reality of life on this planet. So the key learning here is that decolonial research and researchers treat minority world knowledge claims as merely one data point and never the only data point. The second point, and one which disrupts the colonizers view of objective knowledge creation. The second learning is that we all carry our cultural baggage, and our conscious and subconscious biases into all of our engagements, including research. No human is free of this, since no human exists outside of the social system. We see according to our own subject positions, when shown a different perspective, we might then see a different perspective. But we also might not see a different perspective, even when we are told about it, and even when we're shown it. So does the fact that we cannot see a different perspective mean that it doesn't exist or does the fact But others can see it mean that it does exist. And we simply don't have the faculties necessary to see that perspective. So for me, that's a very important part of decolonial research allowing for the fact that other perspectives do exist. So to summarize the points that I just made, there is no truly objective researcher. And secondly, since there's never been adequate evidence provided for claims that particular types of social knowledge are universal, the decolonial researcher will be skeptical when those claims are presented to him. So what are some of the principles and practices that researchers can employ to produce work that is decolonial now from my reading across different decolonial decolonial scholars, I've distilled a set of principles which I think a common decolonial works and I detail these in my forthcoming book decolonizing international development majority worldviews, there are three principles which are particularly pertinent to doing decolonial research. The principles highlight that decolonization and decolonial ality is not just about explicitly challenging external and institutional structures of race based power, such as how whiteness informs academia and pervades the interactions between nation states and individual citizens. The decolonial is as much about understanding one's internal world as it is about navigating the external world.   16:33 So what do I mean by this, we talked about how subject position matters. The first principle that I'm going to talk about relates to acknowledging that there is no truly objective researcher. Therefore, perspective matters and diversity matters. That is the principal perspective matters and diversity matters. We inhabit a planet with an incredible diversity of humans and other life forms, where we are situated geographically geopolitically, culturally our gender, a myriad of other intersecting ways. These all shaped the way that we interact with the world. respecting diversity necessarily means that we respect historical and cultural difference. On a planet as diverse as ours, one cannot generate sustainable solutions, or undertake ethical research without multiple diverse voices framing the issues that matter and how they should be addressed. So decolonial researchers employ radical honesty and transparency about their subject position. Now it's common for scholars from the Pacific region. I told you earlier that I am hoping again, you're not from the Pacific region, it's common for scholars in the Pacific region to emplace themselves. I introduced myself as coming from a matrilineal matrilineal culture in Papua New Guinea. My scholarly colleagues variously introduced themselves as Maori Fijian Samoan. In doing this, we are each acknowledging that our views of the world are partial, and they're shaped by our geopolitical location. Very few white scholars, particularly in place themselves, and by not doing so they are complicit in the myth of objective knowledge production, and in upholding white because there's a norm that needs no explanation. Some white scholars in Australia do in place themselves and I'm going to share with you how a white scholar working in Australia in the decolonial space positions herself. I quote along the Lenten who says, I wish to acknowledge the dark people, their elders past and present, and to remind us all that this lecture is taking place on stolen derelict land. I also want to begin my lecture by positioning myself as a European West Asian Jewish woman living on stolen Gadigal land and quote, Alana Lenten acknowledges that she is a settler colonizer on land that has been stolen from the original inhabitants and that she benefits from this situation. The effect of a white person doing the reflective work to understand her subject position. And then voicing that subject position is that it begins to destabilize whiteness as the norm, culture, ethnicity historical wrongs that continue as contemporary social marginally marginalization become visible, as influences on the knowledge that is being presented and the claims that are being made. The second principle that I wanted to talk about is that we live in a blue reverse, not a universe and the blue reverse is a term that we that the cohort of decolonial scholars that I talked about earlier on, Walter Manolo, Arturo Escobar, this was coined by them. decolonial approach rejects the idea of a universe or uni versal approaches which imply a single way of being knowing And doing that is the uni. A decolonial approach embraces the idea of a pure reverse meaning that we understand that there are multiple different and equal ways of being knowing and doing. And the third principle is that every related principle to the previous humility matters. In a pure verse have multiple ways of being, knowing, doing, relating and perceiving. No one individual or group has all the answers to human well being, or cultivating the flourishing of life more generally. In our pure reverse knowledge is generated in a myriad of ways, not just in universities. There are as many experts outside of universities, as there are within them. Who are these people, these other experts, they have people with lived experience of the research question or the policy problem.   21:01 They include, for example, women in communities across the Pacific who navigate who negotiate the effects of climate change in their daily lives, but whose voices are absent from the policymaking that directly affects them. Policy which can produce unintended, unintended harmful consequences for these women because it doesn't address their daily concerns. And I recommend reading Linda to EY Smith decolonizing methodologies as part of your PhD candidature exploration into other ways of knowing and knowledge creation. I'm going to talk now I realized that I'm over the half hour, but I'm going to talk a little bit about some of the practices that serve these decolonial principles. And then we can go into a q&a section. So the first practice that I highlight is a practice of radical self reflexivity, for the principle that perspective matters. radical honesty and transparency about your subject positionality requires deep self reflexivity. At IW da the International Women's Development Agency where I work, we are in the process of finalizing our inaugural decolonial framework to guide our work. And I'm going to quote a passage from this framework because I find it particularly pertinent. Starting the quote, since racist and colonial systems and institutions are created and held in place by many individual people, we each have a duty to do the personal inner work to analyze our relationship with whiteness, and coloniality. We must work to understand our own assumption, beliefs, behaviors, and positions in relation to colonialism and racial hierarchies. We must ask ourselves, how our nationality or religion, our language, our sexuality, or gender, our racialized identity, our indigeneity, our can our conceptual frameworks, our practices, etc, have been and continue to organization and flow in reality, and how this informs our individual sees hard work, particularly for those who benefit from the systems of oppression that coloniality and whiteness represent. However, doing this work as individuals is necessary in order to reframe our understanding of how to relate to other peoples other countries and other cultures, and to begin to decolonize ourselves and quote, this work I put to you is necessary for all decolonial researchers. Well, how can you seek to decolonize if you have no understanding of how you yourself are affected by and or complicit in colonial ality the second practice that I highlight speaks to the fact of living in a pure reverse. And that is all knowledge claims have to be triangulated. If you are researching the Pacific, for example, you triangulate the scholarly texts from scholars who are indigenous to the Pacific region and scholars who've written about the Pacific from other parts of the world or other subject positions. And you search out other sources as well. You acknowledge that people with lived experience of the matters that you are researching, have an expertise that is valuable, and you extend to them the mantle of expert, not just research subject, or object. So the principles and practices that I've outlined here are by no means exhaustive there, but they are I feel necessary tools for the decolonial researcher and practitioner to critique and disrupt and dismantle existing power structures and to contribute to offering and shaping a radical and transformative alter alternative world But to paraphrase Audrey Lorde does not use the Masters tools.   25:06 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

This series of podcast episodes will focus on Decolonising Research, and feature talks from the Decolonising Research Festival held at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. The twelth epsiode of the series will feature Dr. Musarrat Maisha Reza from the University of Exeter and her talk 'How a predominantly white faculty can empower ethnic minority students.'   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcription   00:09 Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host, Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest, about researchers development, and everything in between.   00:31 So, hello, everyone, thank you so much for coming for this session. I am Dr. Marcia Raisa, and I'm a senior lecturer in Biomedical Sciences at the College of Medicine and Health, I also hold the position of the race equality resource officer. So I'm going to use both my experiences to you know, discuss the topic today, which is how a predominantly white faculty can empower beam students. Now being students, basically black Asian minority ethnic students, I'm not really going to use this term moving forward, I will just say, ethnic minority students, because, you know, this is not the favorite term anymore. So I'm going to stick to specifically talking about the role of advising and mentorship, because we know that we do have a predominantly white faculty, and we do have a lot of ethnic minority students, which is quite disproportionate, especially within the medicine and medical sciences curriculum, compared to the kind of ethnic minority faculty that we have. But that doesn't mean that we should deprive our ethnic minority students of mentorship that they deserve, just because the demographics don't align specifically. So how do I become an ally? This is something that is a very interesting conversation that goes on, where white individuals are always wondering how do I become an ally. But before that, we need to start thinking about self work and critical reflection. So this whenever I have this conversation, it seems like a very up in the air kind of conversation, oh, we need to do self work and critical reflection. But I think it is not sufficiently emphasized on how important this work is, before we actually, you know, self work and critical reflection is going to take us a lifelong journey of learning and reflection. But without engaging in this process, trying to mentor and be at or be an ally, to different marginalized groups can actually be more harmful than beneficial. So in this process of self work and critical reflection, I believe it's really important to discover our unconscious biases that shape our decision making and shape our thought process on a regular basis. And what kind of active measures and resistance to these unconscious bias do we need to engage in? This section will not be the main topic of my conversation, I just want to touch on it briefly before I go into the actual mentorship process. So what's an ally? An ally is any person that actively promotes and aspires to advance the culture of inclusion through intentional positive and conscious efforts that benefit people as a whole, or benefit the marginalized communities that we are, we claim to be allies off? Now how do we become an ally, very, very superficial. And simply we can just be an anyone can be an ally, anyone has the capacity and capability of being an ally, regardless of their ethnicity, and you don't have to be a member of a specific marginalized group to support them. So what is really required is the conscious and active effort that is required to better understand the obstacles faced by the members of these marginalized groups. And allies are really important because often they are in positions of more privilege, then members within the marginalized group. So they are powerful voices alongside marginalized ones.   04:07 Now, moving quickly into conscious, being conscious of our unconscious bias. So in terms of unconscious bias, what it's a term that is regularly contested as well, and it's something that also puts people on a bit of a defense where they don't let if they support a certain group, there's a resistance to accept that there is unconscious bias in all of us actually. So our privileges, many of us fall into different spectrums of privilege, and our privileges, it blinds us from the negative experience of marginalized groups. So I have different intersectionalities as a person that makes me who I am that confers upon me certain privileges or disadvantages in society. Now, given the privileges that I have, it is natural for me to be blind. To the experiences that I do not go through in terms of, you know, negative experiences, but that doesn't excuse us from not being aware. So bias is an inevitable as a result of social conditioning and cognitive processes. But it is not evidence or accusations of prejudice. So contrary to our conscious intentions, we all hold hidden biases that manifest in subtle or unconscious ways. And sometimes it can actually manifest in dangerous ways as well. So it's important that we are aware of them, or we may be creating more harm than good for marginalized groups we support. So I'm just going to stop sharing my screen for one second, so that I can close all my tabs, so we don't disturb the rest of the meeting. My apologies. Alright, so we'll go back to this. All right. So thank you. Now, what can I do? These are some of the in my previous talks, where I focused specifically on unconscious bias and, you know, set   06:13 up, sorry, so. So what can I do to counter unconscious biases? These are just some recommendations that I've suggested. But they're not again, I'm not going to go deep into this one. Because this was what I covered in like my previous talks on, you know, self worth and critical reflection, and how do we go about that journey. In previous talks, I also spoke about how I went on my specific journey to, you know, to discover my unconscious biases, and actually start working on them. So that was a lot more comfortable, because I was using myself as an example. So that kind of puts people a little bit at ease. So in terms of my recommendations I made for firstly, being aware of differences in different candidates that we're, you know, we're involved in, a lot of us are academics, a lot of us are in positions of power and leadership positions. We have times where we engage with candidates, with students, with individuals who rely on us for decision making. So it's important that we are aware of those differences in different individuals and ourselves. And acknowledging that we all have bias, even when we do not realize that I think this is this is really important, because the biggest step is to acknowledge it is the lack of acknowledgement, that actually puts a lot of people on the defense. And the third recommendation I'd make would be to actively resist inappropriate advocacy and unreasoned judgment that this person, for example, is not suitable for this position because we are coming from a space of a bias or stereotype. So we don't think that they're capable because of certain gender or certain ethnicity. And lastly, and quite importantly, getting involved in reflective activities to continuously work on unconscious biases. It is a learning process, it is something that everyone has, it is also something that helps us navigate our world. So we're not suggesting that you don't have biases anymore. We're suggesting that you actively engage with your bias so that you know that it does not disadvantage someone who's relying upon you for your decisions. Right. Now, moving forward from this section of self worth, and critical reflection, which is really important to engage with, while and before we get into engagement with ethnic minority students as mentors or allies or advisors. So under this engagement with ethnic minority students, today, I will speak a lot about empathy and vulnerability, which is really important to express because we, we don't have to know everything. I think it is important for us to be vulnerable and know that we don't know everything we are learning. And I'll show you examples on how that honesty and that transparency about where we are on our journey can be really helpful and can gain the interest of students who are different from us. And I would also be talking about some of the positive action and active support that we can provide to our students. So the main flow of my talk would be understanding firstly, the distinction between role models and mentors. Then I'll go into a bit more discussion on a certain publication, which talks about cross race mentoring. And finally, I'll end off with a recording of personal experience of an ethnic minority student who very kindly recorded that for me, and it is very telling and quite aligned with the kind of theory that has been established through this publication.   09:57 So firstly, let's have a look at what Role Models versus mentors are, they're both significant, and they can't be overlooked in terms of their difference, it is important to establish that. So let's look first at what a role models. A role model is someone who we can look up to be inspired by, we admire with an aspiration to emulate their life or behavior, they don't need to be known. So the the role model does not need to know me or I don't need to know the role model, it could be a very silent relationship where we just watch them from afar and want to be like them. And role models usually provide an inspiration from afar. Rather than direct advice and support, it could go into advice and support as well. But this is usually someone you look from afar. Sometimes celebrities, sometimes Nobel Prize winners, it's a one way relationship largely. Mentors, on the other hand, they engage in long term relationships. And they are focused on supporting the growth and development of their mentees by sharing the wealth of experience they have. So mentors are usually on some sort of similar career trajectory, or some kind of space that you connect with in your life and you feel like their experiences can help you. So a mentor is a lot more invested. They ensure and guide their mentees to make informed decisions regarding personal and professional development. And as I said, that relationship happens to be a lot more personal, and there is significant trust that is built between them. So both parties usually agree to that mentorship making this a two way relationship. Now, just some statistics that I found very interesting 87% of UK staff within higher education, they reported that there is a lack of role models from ethnic minority backgrounds and teaching practices. And that is one that has been attributing to work that has been one of the main factors leading to the awarding gap between white and ethnic minority students within higher education. And this was reported by The Times Higher Education survey. So just again, because I am from the College of Medicine health, I would give you a few examples from medicine as well. There is an overall 14% degree awarding gap among medical students within the UK 78% of students within the UK also held similar views on the main reason for the attainment gap. This is directly from the report of the National Union of Students, I want to also highlight that we are changing that attainment gap term, two awarding gap which is a lot more which puts a lot more responsibility on the institution. Because when we use that attainment gap, we kind of put that responsibility of poor achievement to the students or the individuals who are not, you know who are falling in that gap. So an awarding gap puts them takes that deficit model away. But this is a quotation from the NUS UK report. So they cite lack of diverse senior leaders as one of the main factors of the awarding gap. So role models in academia can create that sense of belonging for students who tend to report the imposter syndrome where they feel like they may not belong in that space. 1.3% of ethnic minority students choose to do a PhD, almost half of their white counterparts, which is two point by 2.4%. And that was reported by the Higher Education Funding Council for England.   13:41 Now, role models and mentorships do go hand in hand. And we need to improve diversity in both student and faculty leadership to increase the role models for our students. And today we focus on tools to empower our existing ethnic minority students with resources we have through mentorship, which is basically parallel ongoing work. Now benefits of mentorship would be basically when student and faculty engage in mentoring programs, it has significant benefits to students, especially those that are considered to be at at risk because of academic difficulties. Some of the benefits, these are quite common benefits that we already I think we've all heard of it. It improves self efficacy. There's increased academic scores to help eliminate the degree awarding awarding gap that we have found in literature that students end up completing more credit units, there is a reduced rate of dropouts, increased graduation, more opportunities for growth, and also higher enrollment in graduate programs. And you know, students actually following through with careers in academia. So cross race mentoring, this is the second part of the talk. We're going to look at a case Study, which talks about highly successful versus the least successful mentorship. And the main important reason for why I even talk about this is because in Exeter 88% of our students who are accepted are, you know, is white. And a majority of academics within Russell Group universities are also white. So 86% are white, you have 6%, who's Indian and South Asian 6%, who has Chinese and East Asian, mixed and black are 1%, an Arabic 0.4%. So largely majority of our academics are also white, you know, that kind of puts our ethnic minority students in a position where they are really a minority, where, you know, their counterparts are largely white. And they're the academics that they look up to are also largely white. So discussions with academics in general, one of the quotes that I'm going to make here is something that stayed with me, one of the white colleagues said, I am a white faculty member, it is not my place to mentor, an ethnic minority student, I do not share their lived experiences, and they will not be able to relate. And I cannot help that. So there is this apprehension that they are not qualified or they're not suitable to be a mentor for ethnic minority students. And so they sort of shy away from that role and responsibility, because they don't feel that they can help. Now, there are in again, in literature, there are two sides of the argument for cross race mentorships, some of the concerns raised were that white mentors tend to promote their own racial views, and encourage their mentees to assimilate into the white mainstream. And that largely stems from the unconscious bias where they say things like, you know, you need to, you know, try and integrate better, you need to do better with making friends and you need to do, you just need to try and assimilate with, you know, with the population, if you want to be if you want to feel included. And that's a problem. If we go on to the next one, a lot of academics also want to avoid difficult conversations about racial issues, they don't acknowledge that racial differences, one of the very problematic terms that that that tends to get used as colorblindness, where they say I don't see color, so it doesn't even matter when that is something that can be really, really harmful. So there is a tendency to downplay the significance of race, though it could be central not could be the it is actually central to the lived experiences of their mentees or their tutees. And often, this stems from a huge discomfort that mentors have been discussing race giving, and they tried to give the impression that racial discrimination is not that important, or race is not important. So we don't want to use that or bring that in the into the conversation. There is a positive side to this where you know provenance of this cross race mentorship actually explain why it's needed.   18:23 There are obviously as I showed you, in some steps, just now currently, a lot more people of color who are in need of mentors, then there are minority mentors. So that should not deprive ethnic minority students of mentors. So waiting for some foreseen race match can result in valuable time lost for the for the mentees. There are also practices that can help individuals overcome the obstacles of different lived experiences. For instance, it is important to select mentors who promote their mentees cultural and ethnic identity, who remain cognizant of the lived experiences of minorities. The mentorship gap for ethnic minority students why, as I said, Why white mentors tend to shy away from the mentoring from mentoring their mentees of different ethnicities, because largely they feel that it is not their place. And because of the different lived experience, there can't be a relatability. So some of some research stresses on same race mentoring, and others highlight the resulting dearth of mentors and therefore leaving ethnic minority students with no mentors, there is evidence for contact hypothesis, which which discusses the theory that frequent intergroup contact between equal status members under appropriate conditions meaning like under friendly, hospitable conditions, can I Truly reduce prejudice between majority and minority groups. There are I first personally who really struggled to find studies and analysis of, you know how successful crossways mentorship could be. But I did find one very interesting study. And it was a very, it was a thesis, which really had some some lessons that I think we can learn and implement. So this mentorship program, it was the New Horizons mentorship program that was a program from the Portland State University. It happened in 2013. The study group was basically white faculty members with black and Latino first generation community college students in a formal mentoring program in higher education. So there was this mentorship program went on for three months, and six of the mentor pairs or trios were interviewed. So the aim of this entire project in this university was to understand the perceptions of white adult mentors, and black and Latino mentees of their activities, interactions, and their views on the advantages and drawbacks of their cross race mentoring relationship. So I'm going to set out a few definitions these definitions are from, they're all summarized from this thesis, when they define it to be successful. It describes that both the mentor and the mentee describe their experiences as positive that the relationship involves a close interpersonal bond, there was high level of agreement between the mentoring partners, and both mentors and mentees identify personal and our professional gains or growth during the interview. Sorry, give me one second, let me close my teams as well, this is.   22:02 Okay, my apologies. Let me continue, I have too many tabs open that I think I really need to start closing. So in terms of the low to no success, low to no success, mentorship experience, the participants explicitly describe their experience and partnership in a negative manner. There was very little or negligible relationship that developed between the mentor and the mentee. And mentors and mentees did not discuss anything beyond their research projects, or, or mentees were not even engaged in the research task. So this was classified as low to no success versus successful. So in this entire study, three themes emerge from their from from their entire project. And they've classified it as expectations and perception, the mentoring relationship and the racial component. So for each of these themes, I will give you some examples, a quotation for both successful and non successful relationships under each of the categories. So I think that will give us a very good understanding of, you know, how these mentors and mentees really felt. So in terms of expectations and perceptions, that was defined as mentors motivations and expectations in the program, and the mentor mentee understanding of their relationship and how they describe each other. So in a successful mentoring relationship, the mentor this mentors decision to participate in this project centered on providing mentees with opportunities to advance the mentees educational and career aspirations. They also had raised awareness and highlighted the importance of mentoring students from underrepresented and minority groups in higher education. There was a primary focus on mentees growth and progression towards their academic goals, rather than the mentors own research agenda. That is not withstanding that, of course, that these students were engaged in research, you know, mutually agreed research projects, but there was a lot of focus on what exactly the mentee wants to achieve from it. There is also mutual liking for each other, which helped them develop a personal relationship. And some of the mentees expressed that, you know, despite things being successful there, in the beginning, they still found that race class educational differences, and awareness of the kind of implicit racial attitudes, their white mentors might have created a bit of tense and uneasy feelings for them. So to illustrate that I took one of the courts, which said a black male mentee said the first few meetings I was just like, wow, just the dynamics, you know, an older white woman We have our perceptions about older white women and how they see black men. So it has probably played on me more than it played on them. So it was just like all these emotions, like, Okay, well, I'm in this position, I got to step up show that I'm worthy. So this was one of the comments, the black male mentee made in the beginning, which of course, transformed moving forward in that mentoring relationship. Whereas in a low to no success mentoring relationship, the mentor mentees that were interviewed, the theme that emerged was that mentors had very different motivations for joining this program, because they wanted to get help for their own research and work more than, you know, understanding the mentees career goals or aspirations. And often these mentees were considered a pair of eyes or a pair of hands. And their goals were not given similar consideration. So there was a mich mismatch of their expectations. And that led to a difficulty in the bonding between the mentor and mentees. And you know, there's a difference in personality, there's lack of common interest. So there was little to no mutual liking, and no vision towards that common goal. So mentees often describe that mentorship as like a job, they often felt judged, and they did not feel mentored at all. So one of the mentors, a white mentor, who was a part of this program said, I was kind of at the point where I was working on my research. And that was really the priority for me. I was thankful Jared was able to give me some help. But also I wasn't too concerned about you know, do we like each other.   26:42 Now, let's move on to the second aspect of this theme from this project, which they classified as the mentoring relationship. So the mentoring relationship talks about the overview on the amount of time mentor spent with the mentees and how mentees perceive this experience as contributing to their academic and career goals. So let's look at the successful relationship first. In successful relationships, there was frequent contact with one another, apparently, it was at least once, two thrice a week during the mentorship period, there were opportunities for mentees to expand their social network within the university and community through the mentors network, of course. Them mentees gain a clearer perspective on their academic goals and enhance their personal development. They didn't feel like they were in an employer employee relationship, they really felt like this was more of a friendship. And the tools and support provided really helped to advance the specific skill sets that they aim to advance. And mostly, the mentees talked about equal status relationship where it was more collaborative, and they were working towards shared goals. And both their goals were considered important. So they didn't feel that power hierarchy. That was they're in a non successful mentoring relationship. So the work that they were assigned, was aligned to their career aspirations. So one thing that they did highlight was that equal status is difficult to achieve, especially when you have faculty versus first generation undergrads, that could really lead to a clear hierarchy, which was quite evident for the non successful mentoring relationship. And that gap became becomes more pronounced for ethnic minority mentees. And that often leads to that imposter syndrome. Now, one of the mentees said that the mentor had me talk to different people so I could get a greater perspective of what I want to do. I felt like that was a really good thing. I never felt at any point throughout the whole process that it was just about getting my work done for her. I felt like she wanted me to learn something about what I want to do as well. So that was a really nice quote from the mentee. Now let's look at the unsuccessful one. In an unsuccessful mentoring relationship, there were no clear definitions of the mentor and mentee role, the mentee was largely unclear about what was expected of them. Now, the mismatch of mentor mentee expectations resulted in poor mutual liking. And there was also a mismatch of personality and interest. So the mentor did not really work together with the mentee to achieve the mentees academic goals, and build that entire mentorship program around their own research agenda, rather than working on shared goals. And the mentee also did not perceive the mentor accordingly, but saw the mentorship as an opportunity to gain job experience. So it became automatically this employer employee relationship rather than a collaborative one. Now, one of the mentees said I felt like I didn't get as much For me being where I am in my life and my career, I didn't feel that I got as much out of it as somebody without a career and knowledge base would have got, I think I would have chosen a different research project for myself, I didn't get to hone in on my skills, I got to kill time.   30:18 So the third component, which is the racial component, which is which I personally found the most interesting, and in successful mentoring relationships, the mentors demonstrated raise awareness, and they acknowledge racial stereotypes as barriers to interracial interactions and relationships, which is, which was very interesting for me to read. Mentors stressed the importance of mentoring students from underrepresented groups, and they actively tried to create more inclusive environments. Mentors also demonstrated awareness of implicit racial attitudes, and use experience. As a member of another out group, for example, women in higher education are also they face significant disadvantages as well to empathize with their students. So mentors needed to put in more effort as compared to same race mentorship to ensure success. And this was the sentiment of a lot of the mentors in interviewed in this project. And mentors expressed that same race mentors would have the biggest impact on how they felt only at the beginning, but did not, you know, as same race mentor would not have changed much about their overall mentoring mentoring relationship. Over the three months, one of the mentors said, I am quite a bit older than her, also white male. And so kind of on all levels, there are a lot of differences. And I knew I'd have to make it work to put her at ease and have regular contact, I have to I have to keep in mind my age, my degree, my kind of status, that I was male and white, and all those kinds of things just to try and make it more make it comfortable for her. In a low to no, no success relationship. The racial component was, I think, a very significant factor as well, where white mentors did not believe that racial difference between mentor and mentee had an impact on the outcome of the relationship. This is where I mentioned the color blindness that just now where they use that as a little bit of that shield, to not engage in that difficult conversation. So mentors expressed that it was not important to consider how racial dynamics might affect the mentor mentee interaction. They believed that if work interests align, racial dynamics would not influence the relationship, since common interests should supersede racial differences. The mentors also when interviewed, were very uncomfortable answering questions that explicitly asked about race. And they also did not exhibit racial awareness. So mentees also did not have a have any significant thought about race and its impact on the mentoring relationship. So I wouldn't say it was only the mentors being unaware the mentees also didn't necessarily want to engage with the racial component of it as well. So the mentor said, one of the mentors said, I just don't see how race ethnicity class minority anything. I just don't see how that came out. I really don't and I thought about it. So this was one of the most this was to me, one of the most prominent statements that a mentor from a from an unsuccessful mentoring relationship made, which is why I put it here that I feel like there is especially when mentors do not see how race class ethnicity any of these intersecting factors that make up the life of their mentee had anything to do with a successful mentoring relationship. That is one of the biggest indicators of that of the fact that this relationship is not going to be successful. And this really came out in this particular mentor statement. Now, I want to this this is a four minute clip, I want to play this for you. This student who is speaking here is you know, I cannot reveal any any details about the student at all, but I had received consent to play this for the presentation. So this is an ethnic minority students personal experience with two different white mentors. So I think it'd be really useful to for us to listen to this.   34:34 I am a first generation South Asian immigrant and my parents and I first immigrated to the UK in 2002. I'm currently in the penultimate year of my undergraduate degree and since being University I've had two different white male academic advisors. I really really struggled during the first year at university with undiagnosed ADHD and my Mental health issues. My performance really was limited by my circumstances at the time. So I do feel that it's quite important to highlight my individual case as the different ways my two advisors, approached my problems really dictated my experience as a beam student in terms of having the confidence to approach my difficulties at the time. So my first advisor was assigned to me during my first year at university. And I did feel at the time that although he knew my problems, he had no genuine private concern about them. I was really vocal about negative South Asians specific cultural norms and how they impacted me, pressured me, or caused a lot of difficulties in my academics. And I felt no real response from my previous advisor, I think that maybe you felt you had no place to give input. I mean, maybe speculating doesn't really explain the extent to the of the issue, but I didn't feel a response. And that paired with the fact that we didn't have consistent meetings, when we did meet, it solely focused on academic aspects of my experience, and I essentially had no outlet to explain my difficulties and ask for help. With regards to my personal difficulties. I do feel when I did feel at the time that a vain faculty member would have resonated with my struggles a lot more. And I do feel that he himself was sort of indifferent to my problems at the time. Towards the end of the academic year, I was given the opportunity to change advisors, I did so immediately. My current advisor is also a white male. But the experience has been completely different. He gives me the room to talk about my experiences without judgment, I'm again very vocal about my problems. And my present advisor shows no expression of judgment or confusion. I mean, rather, he shows a real attempt to understand or try to understand. And he's accepted the way that I choose to express myself. It's that acceptance that's really given me comfort. He also kind of links discussions together, so the discussions would have meaningfully linked to each other. And he remembers what I refer to in a previous discussion and then linked it without outright reminding me of a negative experience. I mean, it seems that he tries himself to understand and mentally map out what I'm going through. And he just continuously encourages me, I think, whenever my dialogue is self deprecating or defeatist, he really tries to advise me on how to be positive. And we're both aware of the sort of interracial differences when conversations are centered around culture. But he actively tries to avoid being sort of presumptuous or speechless, he just accepts me and looks to engage and try to understand which is really important to me. During my first year, I had consistently achieved grades a lot lower than what I knew I could achieve, I received to choose thirds, I even scored a 17% on one assignment. I recently received some feedback on two summative assignments, one of which I received in 84%, and the other 95%. Although there are many, many reasons as to why I'm now better able to manage my difficulties, I do feel that my having my present advisor has very much improved my confidence and has equipped me to be better able to kind of reach my potential and approach my issues. It seems clear to me that the demographic of advisors for Boehm students in my case does not necessarily dictate the quality of the experience, rather a space for I mean, open dialogue, with encouragement, persistence, and acceptance does. And I hope that my experience is useful in showcasing that white faculty members can also empower them students. Thank you for listening.   39:19 Alright, so I found that personally very, very inspiring. You know, hearing the students speak the way that she did, I tried to extract some of the things that she has said, and tried to align it with what the research project from Portland State University tried to show as well. So first, when she discussed about developing a personal relationship and her two different experiences, she mentioned that there was no opportunity to express the personal issues that limited her and how all her meetings focused only on only on academic matters, versus the next mentorship. An experience that she had, where she felt free to express herself and mentor provided comfort, reassurance and showed genuine concern. And they also discussed issues outside of work in academia. Now, the second theme that emerged from her conversation was ongoing and meaningful follow up discussions. So comparing her two experiences, the one that she found unsuccessful showed a failure to follow up and maintain communication, despite the students initiative to establish contact and express her challenges versus the successful mentorship mentoring experience, where she said that meetings were very consistent. And the mentor listened actively remembering the students challenges to help monitor her progress. And finally, sensitivity to cultures specific concerns, her unsuccessful mentoring relationship had indifference when you know, she met with her mentor, you know, because there was no discussion on culture, or there was an indifference to the discussions on culture or cultural differences more specifically. So there was also no real attempt to engage or try to understand the students feelings. Versus during a successful relationship. There was that acknowledgement of the difference in cultural backgrounds, and engagement and fruitful dialogue without judgment or disapproval. So if I can go further and map the same, the same themes that extracted you know, I extracted from her conversation, it really does match up with what the study actually found on the themes that they identified, which is expectations and perception of the mentoring relationship, the actual mentoring relationship and what that entails, and the racial component where there is an acknowledgement and understanding that these differences exist, and the differences actually can, you know, impact how the relationship goes on. Now, if I could summarize, overall, based on my entire talk, I think under expectations and perceptions, it is important for to keep mentees goals and aspirations at the forefront. Along with of course, the supervisors or the mentors goals where you know, why they engage in the relationship, it needs to be, you know, both of their goals and aspirations need to be equally valuable. So it is also important to overcome negative perceptions, stereotypes and try and build that trust, which is important in developing mutual liking and the bond. In terms of the mentoring relationship, it is important to provide mentees with tools for growth and development, it is important to have an equal status relationship working towards that shared goal, and of course, effective communication. And finally, the racial component, which I always find very fascinating is demonstrating the awareness of race and ethnicity, acknowledging our own unconscious or implicit biases, being empathetic and allowing vulnerability as I first mentioned in the in the beginning, and having open conversations about racial dynamics that can play into the relationship and the success of the mentoring relationship.   43:27 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

This series of podcast episodes will focus on Decolonising Research, and feature talks from the Decolonising Research Festival held at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. The eleventh epsiode of the series will feature Shibani Das from the University of Exeter and her talk 'Decolonising 'National' heritage: How Indian museums and cultural spaces are addressing their colonial pasts.'   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcription   00:09 Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development, and everything in between. Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of Aldi in the in betweens, and this our 11th episode in the decolonizing research series. In this episode we're going to hear from University of Exeter PhD students Shivani does with her presentation decolonizing national heritage, how Indian museums and cultural spaces are addressing their colonial pasts.   00:53 This is a conversation that's been happening for about 10 years quite strongly within the mean this continent. And it addresses a couple of issues, branching from changing syllabus to changing architecture to changing public attitudes about our colonial past. So who am I to speak to you about all this, this is just to outline that I will be speaking to you not from a political perspective, but from a professional one. I have. I'm currently an HR CCDP doctoral candidate at the University of Exeter, and partly funded by BT archives. But my professional training back in India has been in and around museums and organizations that deal with cultural spaces. So just a list of the places that I have worked at. And I have been closely associated with the Government of India as well as private organizations. So the following five slides will just be an insight to what I have experienced and would not be a blanket statement I would be making across India, I'm sure there will be many people in the conversation, who want to have their own points of views. And I welcome that. Towards the end of the presentation. I've mentioned my email id and my profile. So I'll be happy to continue this conversation sometime later as well. But having said that, let's carry on. So, to begin with, I would like to talk to you about what decolonization means, in the Indian perspective. Across the past month, we've been having conversations about decolonization in the academic space or in the research space on how to how we deal with decolonization within the archives. But decolonization as a national conversation has taken a different route in India completely. So, the three main components of this conversation that are recognized the politician or the museums or cultural spaces, and the Academy space, so for a large part of Indian political history, the conversation has gone from the right hand side, the left hand side, what I mean by that is from the academic space through the cultural space into the cultural space, there was a large Academy conversation about when decolonization began, a lot of British historians believe that began when the Empire began to crumble. So with this second world war onwards, in the process of decolonization, Indian academicians did not appreciate how much focus was given to the British as actors in this conversation. So when the British decided to leave India that was a process of decolonization. What sort of nationalist historians or subaltern or postcolonial historians began arguing about was that decolonization would actually be the process of independent India, shedding the layers of its colonial past, which pushes a timeline back to 1950s 1970s. And the opening up of the Indian economy opening up the Indian quality to the larger world. This had an impact on cultural spaces and how they were designed, which led to opera how politics was designed, with regards to our colonial past, but ever since 2014, there has been a switch in how the Indian public and have been in government understands this, the conversation has switched course and short moving from the, from the from the left to the right, there is a there is a major sort of a tangible political movement to change or to manipulate or to edit, how Indians think of their past or react to their past and that political change has impacted cultural spaces and internal Academy spaces. This sort of two way conversation is quite an interesting one that we will discover more with examples that come ahead. So I've taken the liberty of sort of condensing condensing this conversation down to three simple steps. I do realize it's very reductive, but to have a good conversation, I feel some reduction is essential. So three steps for basically decolonization How would I as the government of India or as India, talk about decolonization and my approach to it. Number one, you remove, remove any selectively remove any tangible remnants of one's colonial past, if you can't remove it, then you appropriate symbolism, the conversation that we will be having would be around the India Gate and this coronation Park in New Delhi. And we'll go ahead and talk about that in a bit. Number two is God right or you   05:36 name whatever, you can't change immediately. So here we have conversations about rewriting how people react to your history or learn their histories, be it through syllabus, in schools, or in universities, or in how we interact with history on a day to day basis. For example, road names, metro station names, museum names, etc. And step number three, which is the final step, which is almost in completion right now in Delhi, is rebuild, undertake massive and drastic construction projects to change the historical landscape. Now, these steps, in my opinion happen over a long period of time, you have to begin to corrode a public's reaction or relationship with that history, to be able to take a drastic step like rebuilding a construction or tangible space. So the first conversation I'd like to have with you in the first case study we like to discuss is removed. So, on the left hand side of this presentation, you see a very interesting sculpture from coronation Park in North Delhi. It was built in 1911. On the right hand side of a familiar symbol of Indian democracy, which is India Gate built in 1921. In New Delhi, the coronation Park is a very interesting Park, it is largely abandoned, it is not it's not in the center of the city is not celebrated. It's not the focus of civic life in that area. It is sort of a graveyard of sculptures that, at the at the moment of independence when we had a lot of Imperial sculptures across the city on road crossings, and the government did not know what to do with it. They just picked everything up and the deposited in one land where the royal the bar was held in 1911. But when approaches when one approaches the park today, what one sees is just streams and streams of magnificent Imperial sculptures left and complete abandonment taken from taken out of where they were originally designed for out of that context. And not sort of responded to or agreed with or addressed by any any any person crossing the road. So that's one way of dealing with decolonization. That was when India did not know what to do with its past. So it decided to pick everything up and push it sort of like under the carpet or in a cupboard that you never want to open ever again. This park still exists and most of these sculptures are an absolute ruin. This is an example of one way of how one can deal with one's colonial past. If you can't remove the colonial symbol you can re appropriate the meaning of the colonial symbol which come which brings me to India Gate, possibly one of the most iconic symbols of Indian democracy. For Delhi at least. India Gate is a celebration of everybody who had passed away fighting for the British Empire in the First World War. It is an imperial symbol it isn't it is a power it is a symbol of all those Indians who lost their lives not for Indian freedom but for British freedom. However, this does not sit heavy on an A common Indian person's mind. The appropriate appropriation of the symbol has been so complete that it is it's visible on most sort of tourist banners, it's the center of our Republic Day celebrations. It is something that all Indians will in the evenings come and sit next to celebrate a very sort of personal relationship with it, you will have ice cream Windows walking up and down the street kids playing it's a very open space wherever we can walk in and it is understood to be a symbol of reverence and respect for one's past not not majorly sort of associated with our colonial history. So these are two ways that India has dealt with some of these major symbols of its colonial history. I spend a lot of time trying to wonder what causes this selection. Why in the India Gate did not have the same do not suffer the same destiny as sculptures from the coronation Park and the within the comes to mind. It wasn't that you can't physically remove it and you can't physically break it down. But I'll be happy to to know what you guys would feel about this as well.   09:57 The second idea is to rewrite and to rename Now these are two heavy ideas that are on the same slide. But they have a similar logic behind them. So there has been a move to rewrite history, not just within the larger Academy historiography, but also within how schools and students understand or learn that history is. So between the two major examples I can give you, the nCrt school syllabus changes, and the undergraduate course changes. Within the school syllabus changes. We've had a series of educational reforms that have moved ideas like say caste politics, or Mughal history, or communal writing or communal violence in Indians. In Indian Indian past, there's also been a move as a fairly political move to suppress the role of the Congress in the independence movement. Just to give a little bit of a background Congress was the larger political force that has been largely defeated now by the current incumbent government, which is the BJP. So ideas like for example, codes from the hero have been removed. The role of rural county in certain movements has been reduced in text. Even as far as population data about how many Hindus versus how many Muslims live in a country, or that their employment rates have been smashed. In school, the textbooks now we need to understand the sort of the sanctity with which a normal school child or or sort of a parent would regard what is it mean a text given that it is published by the government, it is considered to be of a certain value that cannot be questioned, and has been marked up and used for like school learning or passing exams. So the level of questioning that happens at this level is very minimal, which makes change like this very dangerous. This change is going to expounded when one reaches the undergraduate courses. Over the last five years, the undergraduate courses for history learning for the BA in history has been has changed drastically. Just one example that like to begin with is changing the name of, say, history of India to history of Wrath of Hara thrash, which is sort of more in a commercial dualistic Hindu approach to looking at the history of, of India. There's also been a move to sort of have courses that are titled   12:27 Indus Valley Civilization so so the Civilization and its Vedic connection. So when you have courses title like this, there's an assumption that be the history or Hindu history goes back as far as Indus Valley Civilization, which is not a historical fact. But I think through strategies like titling, like making titles like there's so many courses like this, a lot of students would not be able to exercise their ability to critically, critically address this issue, or critically understand the politics behind these kinds of changes. You also have changes in the administration of colleges, you have, in recent past, we've had a massive change in the removal of certain Dean's of principals who don't agree with political changes happening across the country. And those who are ideologically inclined tend to find themselves in positions where they can control, for example, which PhD thesis gets passed or which PhD application is successful. So you have sort of a systematic change and a sieve and a syllabus change happening at the same time. On the right hand side. It's a very interesting list. Initially, I was thinking of doing an entire background or just the number of name changes that have happened in India across and this is just a small summary of it. It's a conglomeration of CTG city name changes, road name changes, museum name changes, and it's color coded. So, when I was looking at this list, I was trying to break down logic behind it. And I found a three way logic. The first is changing a name from a British name to a secular name. The second is from Google name or a Muslim name to a Hindu name. And the third is from a Imperial name to a Hindu name. As you can see that there is a large movement towards making every name more indica, more Hindu. And the definition of indica is largely becoming a non Muslim or, or isolation like a separation change. So I've just made a color. I've just made a color coding happening. So everything in blue is your secular changes. So how Kingsway has been renamed to rajpath Queensway to Janpath all these names are largely understood to be a common secular common communal shared nomenclature, but as we move on to everything in yellow or everything in white, you see either change from for example, the web, the most interesting one was the Mughal museum that was changed to Chatrapati Shivaji Museum in 2020, which is a very recent example, this museum was to be built in Agra, which was a city made by a permaculture ruler. It was supposed to champion the Mughal contributions to Indian culture such as miniature painting or architecture. But in 2020 20, after the museum was already in construction, the Chief Minister of particular state announced that the name has to change initially to brasure Museum, which is a local Indic population or the local language population. And later, it was argued that you would have Chatrapati Shivaji, who is a very strong Mahabharata, Africa from Maharashtra, West India. So this is a trend that we all see happening very often, there are tangible repercussions to these trends, where you have a lot of financial investment in changing names, in rotations, as well. But mostly what it does is it tries to manipulate or change how the public addresses or reacts to history on a day to day basis.   15:59 The second idea is rebuilding. And this is something that I feel very personally sort of passionate about these two particular projects, and they are very recent projects. The idea of rebuilding is when you have managed to have sort of I feel discrete changes to how the public reacts to their history, or public understands their history, you've taken the time of changing the syllabus, you've taken the time of changing the road names, slowly, you're corroding how the population is reacting or responding to their own past. What you can then do is commissioned large scale projects, which undertake massive construction, either breaking down and rebuilding or building once again, and there is a trend in recent past that is creating a lot more like this, the India's moving to a more aggressive, symbolic front, a very aggressive, nationalistic kind of jingoistic front that they are putting across this. There are many examples of this one way one common example that a lot of Indians who have joined this conversation will be familiar with is something called the angry Hanuman motif. There was there is a deity called Hanuman. He's a part of the larger epic of Ramayana, which is an ancient epic in India. He's the symbolism of that figure has changed in the recent past. Initially, he was a symbol of loyalty of servitude, of bravery, and always depicted in a sort of amicable manner in paintings. In the recent past, in the past five years, there was a graphic artist in the south of India, who created a sort of a more aggressive muscled version of the same day. And before you knew it, that symbol serve spread across subcontinent at a speed that nobody predicted by be it either in car stickers or in WhatsApp profile photos. It began to be adopted by a lot of population in India because they began at some level, responding positively to this change, of attitude of change of nature to a more aggressive or more sort of nationalist or jingoistic front. But the two examples I've taken up over here, the first is the central reverse the central Vista redesign project in in September 2019, the government of India undertook a project, they made a sudden announcement that they would undertake major reconstruction on the Kings way and the Queen's were erstwhile kings and queens. So, now the Janpath and the rajpath, which isn't center of Delhi, which is called Docklands, Delhi, are bakers and latrines Delhi. because of two reasons, the first was pragmatic reasons or, for example, government offices are very old buildings, they need remodeling they need re they need to accommodate more people, they need to have a lot more efficient working by putting everybody in one building so all these pragmatic concerns that were coming up the second reason was a sort of an ideological opposition to who design this part of the city be it meant specifically Latvians and Baker B them specifically being British, artists, architects, and the idea of the entirety of central value being a British project or a Brit British construction and the government sort of expressed some concerns with how the British chose to depict or chose which aesthetic elements from which design path design history of India did they choose to incorporate and how the current India the powerful current modern India should rebuild something that is more in tune with a more authentic Indian aesthetic. So there was is a large sort of pushback to this decision, especially in a pre pandemic time, there were protests happening about the level of construction that will be required, specifically in a time where India was suffering through a pandemic and needed sources resources in other in other parts of the, of the country. The scheme of this redesign was extremely massive from breaking down any building that is not heritage sites or anything built after 1950s will be broken down, including the National Museum, the entire central secretariat will be evacuated and made into museums of freedom and democracy. And a massive construction would take place that would eradicate all these parks and public space that you see on the side.   20:48 So this project has sort of divided India a lot in the recent past, specifically with having sort of all academicians to one side and say, sort of a push back from a more pragmatic part of India on the other side, and that only Gupta, who's very respected historian from Delhi spoke about how Janpath or Raj producible was supposed to be a more like a more civic friendly space, for example, to allow a car like a classless a costless space for Indian Indians to come in enjoy their own city, their own capital, to come in have picnics here to have football games here to have walks around India Gate was something that was supposed to be a very common practice amongst delegates who would do this on a day to day basis. However, the current project plans to eradicate all these civic spaces and change a lot of what India Delhi sees as its historical past or its landscape. Now, it is an argument that hasn't been cited as of yet the construction project is ongoing. But one this is I feel one way of handling or decolonizing. One one's own past is sort of pushing back and breaking down these remnants. And then it begs the question of at what point do we stop? At what point do we understand that, like, we put a limit of how much we can go back into a pure version of Indian past, right. The the next example, that came away recently, this month actually was the revealing of a new national symbol. So on the parliament building on top of the parliament building, we would have the Ashokan, Lion Capital head, which you see on the left hand side, this is from 250 BC, from the Shogun empire. It was it sort of Pope's entire pillar, that was the pillars that were built up across India. On the left hand side, you see a line that is a lot more aesthetic it is it shows us an idea of sort of protectiveness or of pride, as opposed to as opposed to the right hand side that can that tone, like in terms of tonality, in terms of aesthetic shows a lot more of an aggressive militant, or sort of an anger that was absent in how India perceived itself in the past. My personal opinions aside, there is a larger collage conversation happening about this sort of tonal tonality change or aesthetic change that one is noticing across India, but this is another example of how we are sort of decolonizing or changing how we want to be perceived across the world. Which I found very, very interesting. However, I mean, I can I can understand how it would be would feel that I'm being very negative about these changes. So I'd have a nice slide about how I think that decolonization also has positive impact on how museums portraying themselves. So on the top you have my favorite museum in Delhi, which is the National Museum as you can see, this is a picture from the basement. I think it's the one early medieval crafts and constructions and that's what the gallery is called. As you can see, it's a very sort of old institution. There are large glass cabinets separating the viewer from the artifact. It's air conditioned, it's very sanitary. It's very Imperial.   24:20 Everything is shut off behind certain glass and wooden cabinets, Kavita Singh, who is the head of department of art and aesthetics department in JNU. Jawaharlal Nehru University has written a very nice article called The museum is national where she discusses the impact or the influence of Imperial thought on Indian history on how the national museum itself is designed. So the initial galleries that you have are periodic galleries such as in this Valley Civilization mariage manga Setswana. Moving on to your early medieval late medieval but the moment Indian history starts approaching this Mughal phase National Museum changes its galleries name to materiality. So it becomes from early medieval late medieval becomes brutal architecture, or metal work or musical instruments are most in a way, denying the Mughal aspect of the Islamic aspect of Indian history by how it's designed. It's a very Imperial institution. So also it sort of repels a lot of Indians from entering the institution who feel like they don't belong inside of they don't have a right to walk inside. So it does create a space of otherness. It does elevate civil, I mean culture towards sort of upper level of only being accessible to the elite who feel like they can enter the museum and walk in whenever they want. On the bottom, we have a nicer a much a much more different way of approaching Indian culture, which is the National Museum in Japan. This is an open open design museum that celebrates village life and broom and poo making that's a local culture. The space is a lot more welcoming to a larger class of Indians, it is a lot more spread out is more in tune with indigenous architecture, and indigenous weather, it also would have employed a lot more locals in the construction and maintenance of the museum. So it does have a lot more specialized focus in terms of where the load the location or the locality of what it is celebrating as opposed to a national mall mostly sort of dominating centralizing figure, the National Museum, which has captured the artifacts from across the Indian subcontinent. As the last line to my conversation, today, I'm gonna be starting the cutting to talk to you about opening up the conversation, I want to talk to you about the thin line between decolonization and re colonization. There's something that I began thinking about when I was thinking, what how India is dealing with its past where, in order to address a past, we are trying to replace it with another idea of our history, which has very tangible repercussions on how future generations will see India and how future generations will think about India. So at what point? Do we sort of white like, at what point we fill the vacuum that decolonization that? The idea of removing a colonial perspective of our past? At what point will the bathroom become so strong that we need to fill it with something else? Is that something that will always happen? Can we have an absence? Or can we have can we deal as a people with a change in our how we perceive our history without putting another ideology on top of it and making sure that gets accepted. So when I think about how India is dealing with its colonial past, I feel that there are some negatives of house aggressively it is trying to do so. At the same time, I do believe that there are a lot of positives in the sense of making, changing how we perceive design or how we perceive our cultural spaces, who is supposed to be what's meant for who who understands or appreciates, or, or is able to access it. But it is a thin line that we do need to discuss and address at some point. I do understand I've been speaking for a good 30 minutes now. And I could go on for much longer. But I would like to now open the field, open the conversation up to any questions that anybody might have. Please feel free to use the chat or unmute yourselves. We can talk about I have a lot of examples on my notes that I would love to discuss with you. We can compare how other nations are dealing with that as well. But in the long list of lectures where I saw a lot of conversations about research, and sort of African African reaction, etc. I felt this conversation about how India is dealing with it in its own way, was an important one to have. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.   29:02 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between

This series of podcast episodes will focus on Decolonising Research, and feature talks from the Decolonising Research Festival held at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. The tenth epsiode of the series will feature Larissa Kennedy from the National Union of Students and her talk 'Reimagining undegraduate research: Student agency throuhg a decolonial lens.' Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcription   00:09 Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest, about researchers development, and everything in between.   00:31 Hi, my name is Larissa, my pronouns are she her. And over the past two years, just up to two weeks ago, I had the joy and privilege of being national president at NUS, which is the National Union of Students representing the 7 million students across Further and Higher Education. Prior to that, I've kind of been in the anti racist space around education for practically my kind of entire university life and college life too. And now, kind of with all of that, under my belt, I'm continuing to do stuff around anti racism and education, decolonization and so on. Because this is yeah, it's really my bread and butter are in activism in our work in a lot of different spaces that climate justice and so now, kind of decolonizing education is for me a core of the work. So I'm going to share my screen, we can jump into it. But please feel free to stop me along the way to write in the chat ask questions, because I want to make it really clear that you know, even though this is stuff that I've I've been doing for a while I know kind of authority, you know, I'm just a black student who was sick and tired of being sick and tired. And and kind of launched into this work in that sense. So please do contribute as and when you see fit. So as it says on the screen, this session is titled reimagining undergraduate research student agency through a decolonial lens. And the reason that, you know, I really wanted to explore student agencies, and part of this is because of the system that we are navigating now. Because, you know, we see the ways that the democratize University kind of quell student agency, the ways that it diminishes student's capacity to be seen beyond individualists consumers or knowledge. And by extension, we have to think about how that impacts a student's capacity or even orientation towards research towards research that captures decolonial knowledge is that is bringing the subaltern into play. And so I really wanted to explore that in this talk today. So, you know, I think, head of really getting into the meat of it. I also want to say that if I'm making sweeping statements about kind of the system as it is, this really isn't to invisible eyes, the incredible efforts that are happening on the ground, by individuals who are seeking to undo colonialism in education, but it's to recognize that they are often jumping through endless bureaucratic hoops in order to make this possible. And so even if they do make it, and even if they do, kind of disrupt the academy in those ways, it's in spite of our institutions, not because of them. So with that in mind, thinking about the marketized University as a colonial export, I think is a really important starting point for recognizing how we got here, how we got to a position where, you know, undergraduate research, and particularly undergraduate research that is calling on deep learning and knowledge is so few and far between, but also kind of the levels of passivity that we have in our education system. So I start over this to kind of emphasize through the title through from the from the off that reimagining undergraduate research and student agency through decolonial lens is not about harking back to the kind of good old days that we often hear about in the education system and in higher education in particular, you know, it's not about reinventing these, the kind of romanticized era of the early 60s through to the 90s, where, you know, education was free at the point of use. And so you supposedly have this point where education was this beacon of possibility and an incredible feat that it was to have free education. And although, you know, I absolutely do see free education as a core part of a core principle of kind of reimagined education. I think we also have to be honest about the fact that that free education at the point of views for shoots in the UK was reliant even then, on different went through international student feeds. But it was also relying on kind of the supremacy of the British education system it   05:08 was relying on, you know, as I say, this education as a colonial export, because students around the world had been sold the story of a superior British education system. You know, for myself, I come from Jamaica, Barbados, and St. Vincent, of western Indian heritage. And from early days, it is taught to children and young people, but also to their parents, that the British education system is that which should be coveted. And as such, there was always baked into the system. And understanding that even when we had free education for students in the UK, that this was going to be subsidized by the kind of colonial export of he in UK. So this kind of historic fact paved the way for where we are now paved the way for students being positioned as passive consumers in the kind of 21st century mark marketized. University. And you know, this, it also paved the way for this construct, that the purpose of education as the kind of wind is just doing a lot here, sorry. And it paved the way for the way that, you know, the construct of the former education secretary Gavin Williamson, often said that the purpose of education is to lead people to a fulfilling working life emphasis on working them. It moved us from this idea that education is a tool of liberation, it removed us from the idea that education can be this, you know, opportunity to fulfill purpose to fulfill, you know, joy, even all of this was extracted such that education from this point, we're talking about, you know, decades and decades before the imposition of home student fees, you know, we were always on the journey to ensuring that, you know, markets, democratize university be that for international students, or for all of us, could be a colonial export. And so I think it's important to see that from the very beginning, such that we understand how we got to where we are. And then that begs the question, how does this impact the status of undergraduate students? How does that inform undergrad teaching, learning and research? Because, you know, we've seen kind of the recent criticisms over the past decade or so, around the kind of false neutrality of knowledge that we receive, around kind of the role of decolonization or prior to those campaigns were often heard of the wider my curriculum, white campaigns, which were, you know, encouraging us to be critical and so on of the knowledge that we receive. But what we rarely see is students positioned as actors in informing you know, these, this status quo, or reshaping or transforming the status quo rather, is about okay, receiving the knowledge that   08:21 there's an issue here. Not being people that are given agency to do something about it. And again, I think it's important to look backwards about how we got here, why this is the case. And fundamentally, this is as true throughout our education system as it is in higher education. If you look at schools, and colleges, this rings true. And, you know, speaking to a kind of anti racist educator, Geoffrey beracha, recently, and he described it by saying that activism is not on the curriculum, meaning that politically, kids are being reared to stay still. And so what is it about the kind of transience of the student population kind of juxtaposed with this stagnant, that is being taught to us? This kind of disempowering dampening of our impulses to make change? And what is it about that that kind of informs the way that undergraduates in particular are approaching their own teaching, learning and research? Because I think when you see the kind of rapturous reaction to the like, so, students at Pimlico Academy, resisting Islamophobic and anti black policies, when you see kind of rapturous reaction to the climate strikes that students are leading schools, it's this kind of inclination to inaction and then the kind of shock horror approach to to student agency being exercise. Those teacher Lesson Two Right, they teach students they teach young people, that for you to act against your education system for you to speak up against your education system is unexpected, and will face backlash. And again, if we go further back, you know this, in the same way that we know that this schooling model was built on the kind of Victorian model of education, which was essentially trying to explore, you know, factory workers. We also know that the university system was built in the image of the so called system, the Masters model of education, which was predicated on the idea that those who hold power know best what should be taught and how it should be taught. So where does agency fit within that, because day in day out, that passivity has been communicated to us structurally through schools and colleges, through higher education, and so on. So this ultimately kind of yields the systemic erasure of black knowledge and forms of knowledge production, I would argue, and particularly so at undergraduate level where there is far less capacity to shape your own journey, and where, you know, when I when I do these workshops with students, when I talk to students across the country, they're often talking about kind of trying to make their education more pliable, trying to twist and shape and like, look for blackness into play, rather than it being possible to exist in tandem with the current educational system. So I really to speak slightly here about okay, if we begin thinking about what does reimagination look like if we start to use that as a jumping off point from which we can think of new? How do we reckon with this kind of hyper visibility and invisibility of black students that often comes up in that sense? You know, invisibility, in the sense of black knowledge is being disregarded and delegitimize by the Academy, but hyper visibility, in that whenever students do bring those kind of whether it's lived experiences, or kind of black colleges, and this isn't just black students, but bringing black knowledges and black studies into play, there is often a kind of, you know, hyper visibility in the sense of a magnifying glass on the students and on their work, you know, which we often see in reports, regarding the BAC, attainment gap, and so on, which, of course, is is a kind of symptom of this broader structural issue. And then, you know, to add to that hyper visibility, it's not just about how it's perceived within the academy, we also see that kind of sense, I've sensationalized reports of anti racist efforts happening within our universities, I'm sure I don't need to tell those in the in this space about the kind of Daily Mail reports and so on, about kind of removal of the Queen. And we're talking about kind of colleges and universities that have taken very simple actions which have been blown out of proportion for sensationalist headlines.   13:17 I think, in addition to talking about that reality for black students, and for black colleges, it's also important to see how this systemic erasure is kind of propped up by the fact that this is operating in tandem with the exploitation of black people and people of color within the academy to, you know, I often talk about the fact that if you put every single if you kind of in a graph or on paper, put down every single person, demographically, that's that's working in the university, you would almost get a kind of pyramid structure with the number of black and brown folks in maintenance role, be that cleaning or otherwise being kind of overwhelmingly disproportionate. And then you see that that the numbers of black and brown folks in roles, you know, first of all, your early careers, academics, you have far more than you do in terms of your your professors and lecturers and senior management, of course, we know is historically very white and middle class. So this isn't happening in isolation. And so it's important to see how this systemic erasure is enabled by that kind of structural ratio of black people and black bodies. So we're often then told off the back of the ad that it's going to take time to diversify the academy. We're kind of expected to wait the number of generations that will Take for black folks to work their way up, you know, this myth of meritocracy and so on feeding into this idea that, you know, in order to enable the research of black colleges, we have to wait for more black friends to come up to be interested in at school, you have no idea and the process continues. But for me this this begs the question, what if students were empowered to redefine the academy now, rather than continuing to absorb knowledge is that have been kind of extracted from the canon? What if the spaces of education that we have today work kind of propelling this action and seeing students as agents of this change, rather than passive consumers of things as they are? And so that obviously requires a kind of considerable shift from our present education system to some kind of reimagined future one, because it present undergraduate research is an extension of the academy that exists within you know, if things are if opportunities for research, the outside of core course content, often they are inaccessible to marginalized students, if those opportunities aren't fully funded, you know, if, you know those opportunities aren't accessible for other reasons, such as even levels of publicity and and people's awareness of them, which often comes with levels of cultural and social capital. There are so many reasons, endless reasons be that kind of black students disproportionately having countless possibilities and so on that the list is endless as to why these things aren't always possible. But how do we bring that future lens into play? How do we think of both the practical interim opportunities that we can can pursue to reimagine undergraduate research within the present education system, on the way to on the path to a reimagined education, which of course we'd have this at the core, then, you know, that's what we can start to think about. So I don't know if folks have any thoughts about what those steps might be, feel free to put things in the chat or to just have a think about them yourself.   17:24 But what I'm gonna do now is take us on to talk a little bit about decolonial theory, and how that applies to undergraduate research. And let's talk a bit more about what that reimagination looks like practically. So I often go back to Poker laneways processes of decolonization and these five stages, which I feel are really useful, the third of which is involved, because it's perhaps my favorite. But it's also important to note that Elaine, we refer to these processes as necessitating or kind of iterative process of them all in tandem. And yeah, I'll just speak a little bit to what these are at the moment. So the first of these stages is rediscovery and recovery, the idea that there is so much to unlock when it comes to forms of knowledge and knowledge production that hasn't been lost by the processes of color, colonialism and imperialism, that this in itself is a necessary process to go through, you know, we have to begin to unlock things that you know, that we don't know that we don't know, that we have to kind of utilize funding and kind of an orientation and an inclination towards uncovering these analogies. And that has to be done with intention. So that's rediscovery and recovery, then the second stage of this is about mourning. And it's about recognizing that there are some things that are lost that cannot be recovered. But there are some things that have been raised that that cannot be undone, and that to reckon with that is a very emotionally taxing thing, and particularly so for those who have lived experience of colonial violence or racist violence. The third process, as I say, is my favorite and that's about dreaming. It's about you know, recognizing that even the barriers of what we think when we are outside the box, we are pushing the boundaries of this and thinking really imaginatively, even that is so tied to where we are at present, and to dream to really think beyond the balance with no limits were blown kind of logic, as I said at the beginning, and kind of prior to the recording for folks, which after we did a bit of a free writing, exercise just to start tapping into our capacity to dream. And I think that this is so so important because as soon as we become bogged down in the kind of what is possible, what is considered impossible. That's when we start to lose possibilities here. So I think it's really, really important to dwell on dreaming as a process. And so I'm going to go into that in a bit more detail in a second. The fourth stage in these processes is around commitment. How do you build that groundswell of community support? How do you kind of tap into, you know, the pupil powered energy that you need to move these processes forward. And often in practice, this looks like things like solidarity between students unions, trade unions, those organizing on the ground and community led initiatives and so on. But this could be even more to. And then the fifth and final stage is action. You know, I love this one, because it's simple. It is what it says on the team is about how do we kind of put in place transformative action that is ready to reckon with the fact that the educational system that we have today, is the very product of colonialism, imperialism, displacement, enslavement, and racial violence and without transformative action. You know, if we keep tinkering at the edges, it's not just, it's just not going to cut in. So to talk about dreaming in a bit more detail, you know, I think there are a number of things that we can begin to tap into, when it comes to reimagining undergraduate students agency and dreaming of an education that is built, not bought that is shared, not sold, dreaming of an education that is kind of free from exploitation, and empowering in the quest for liberation. And the kind of starting point, and this and these, literally, the Eastern kind of ideas are just a starting point, because as I say, this dreaming process has to be collective. But where it seems to start for me, is about tapping into kind of decolonial knowledge is, and I'll start on the screen there, I've   22:18 mentioned Fred mountains kind of concept around blackness and Academy is future tivity. What I really love about this concept is that it recognizes that the existence of black people in the academy as it is, can only be one of theft, right? It can only be one of trying to extract what you can in service of community in a way that isn't permitted by the educational system. But what if we move this from future tivity to function in terms of meaning this would be the norm and not the exception. By being able to move into a kind of reimagined University where we are centering community in research where we are centering kind of the solidarity between students and staff and community in building what needs to be researched in in kind of actioning, that practical recovery, rediscovery and so on. I think that would be a kind of one, but you still have a reimagined University for me, because I feel like the way that that would shape undergraduate student agency in being able to tap into the things that really, really matter to them and to their communities. And being able to use that as a kind of springboard for even thinking about research will be incredibly transformative. I would love to know what you think about that in the chat. And again, in terms of decolonial knowledges, I think a second piece of this is about centering the Western Academy and carving out space to do things differently. And why that I'm not only talking about kind of research at a post grad and staff level, but I'm also talking about how do we begin to see intergeneration knowledge is as important as is kind of aligned with African tradition. How do we start to see Indigenous Knowledges or stop the kind of process by which the academy delegitimize us indigenous knowledge is and use that to start propelling an agency towards tapping into things that haven't yet been done in the west or haven't yet been accepted in the worse. And then kind of thinking about decolonial pedagogy as well. I think this for me is about changing that. How in order to transform the wallet, because at the moment, we have, as I say, an education system built from this masters law that says, You should learn this, you should be taught in this way about this. And if we begin to descend to authority in the classroom, making space for people to bring their whole selves into an educational setting, and not just doing this at higher education, but doing this from afar earlier on, I think we have the opportunity to unlock different ideas, different things, even beyond our imagination, because of the way that we're engaging with knowledge. And I think that's really important. And to be honest, I could talk about decolonial pedagogy all day, but I'm just touching on it here, because I think it is absolutely core to unlocking undergraduate students agency. And then, ultimately, you know, this is about building decolonial spaces for knowledge. And I say spaces rather than institutions. Because perhaps the reimagined University isn't an institution in the sense that we know today. But really, if we are talking about democratizing education, and not just for one set of students, but in a kind of universal sense, if we're talking about democratizing universities, and kind of giving us some forms of agency to students to set the agenda, or to talk about the knowledges that connect with and impact their communities, and so on. And if we're talking about decolonizing institutions, and you know, thinking differently about knowledge about pedagogy about all of this, the kind of structural exploitation of black folks of,   26:51 you know, the Global South, and so on. This is how we begin to build a new, but it also yields towards the kind of abolition of the university as we know it, right? Because the, the university, the institution that we know, today, as I say, is the product of all of these forms of colonialism, imperialism, and so on, if we are to extract and take out and undo, and dismantle all of these kind of real forms of how racism is sewn into the fabric of the academy. Ultimately, this is about the abolition of the university. And for me, the most important thing to note here is how do we connect students and their agency in this process? What would the abolition of the university mean for students? What would it mean for student simulation to staff and community? What would that democratize, democratize, decolonized education actually look like? And How could our spaces of education construct student agency as central rather than kind of the kind of marginal considerations of our education? So this really is about positing students as creators, positive students as architects, not as passive consumers, building spaces both within and beyond the academy to start answering these questions. And this has been kind of some of the journey that under my time as NUS president that we were on. We had something called a student strike where we had students walk out of the educational settings and come to this imaginative space when we will hosting sessions and students themselves are hosting sessions about kind of its presence or absence about building life affirming institutions in the world. As of Ruth Wilson Gilmore, Ruth wheels and Gilmore Girls being one of my favorite Instagram Twitter accounts. And but I do think there is great capacity to think differently about what does it mean to be a student to reconstruct who is seen as a student, because, you know, ultimately, all of us are potential students in the communities that we're in. And to kind of almost weaponize weaponize the position that students have for good to talk about the fact that the university would not run without students without staff without communities fueling into and finally into these spaces. And using that, to leverage your capacity for students to be agents of change in reshaping and reimagining University. So I was hoping to pause at this point to see if there were any questions, contributions, thoughts, reflections on any of that, so far But yeah, I mean, I hope that was helpful as a kind of starting point for these discussions. As I say, I don't want to position myself as any kind of an authority on this, but rather just kind of a black student and a black underground who wants to, you know, be in community with others who are seeking to reimagine the university and to reimagine undergrad student research women that   30:29 and that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between  

This series of podcast episodes will focus on Decolonising Research, and feature talks from the Decolonising Research Festival held at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. The ninth epsiode of the series will feature Olabisi Obamakin from the University of Exeter and her talk 'Afropean theology: Utilising Nigerian/British novels as autoethnography in New Testament Studies.'   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcription   00:09 Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of rd in the in betweens. This will be the ninth now in our series on decolonizing research and for this episode we're going to hear from University of Exeter PGR Olabisi abama kin, and her presentation Afro pIan theology, utilizing Nigerian British novels and auto ethnography in New Testament studies. I am to   00:55 be the first scholar to construct and apply a feminist Nigerian British hermeneutical framework. This hybrid location is referred to as living with liminality. And it was coined African by David Byron, who first used the word with regard to the afro pop band zap mama in 1993. Afro paganism is unique in that it moves beyond the parochial West and the West thinking that has dominated Biblical Studies for centuries. And it moves towards an unfixed heterogeneous concept of identity that finally recognizes the long standing complex and heterogeneous relationship between Africa and Europe. Next slide please. My rationale for choosing to locate myself specifically within the subset of Nigerian Britishness within Afro pianism. It originates from my criticism of Johnny Pitts seminal book entitled Afro peon notes from a black Europe, in which he traveled across Europe in order to catch up black Europe from the streets up. He has been criticized for creating a uniform template in which all black people in Europe should fix. His methodology, which was an abstract travel narrative across Europe can also be accused of uncontrollably mimicking Neo colonial dynamic dynamics. Plus, demonstrating how ingrained colonial thought patterns aren't within scholarship. I argue that pits could be seen to have constructed another a morphism label in which to place black Europeans that takes insufficient amount of the nuances within hybrid ethnic cultural identities. My thesis therefore contends that one must particularize Afro paganism within an individual's lived experience, specific locations and relevant traditions. As a black Nigerian woman, black British Nigerian women of Nigerian descent. This formed my rationale for locating my project within the specific context of being a Nigerian British feminist. Rooting my thesis when the specific location allows me to nest my own specific identity and experience under the umbrella term of Afro pianism. Donna Haraway refers to this as situated knowledge. I will therefore henceforth be referring to this lens as a feminist Nigerian British lens. This new lens aims to address the gaps in current feminist womanist and post colonial feminist interpretation, which completely leaves out the experiences of Nigerian British women and your Parker's new book. If God stories why can't I highlights the cutting edge voice of women scholars in America within the field of Biblical studies, but notable by their absence is a specific black British, or here, Nigerian British feminists biblical interpretation. Next slide, please. Within Oh, sorry. Next slide, please. How's my project decolonial. Within biblical research in history, Europe and North America have been situated as the center of knowledge production, in order to maintain the ideology or superiority and the suppression of the other. These anchor centric and Euro American interpretive traditions have presented cerebral historical critical methods of interpreting scripture as the only founded an academic method of studying scripture when this is not the case, with regards to Africa, Adrian Hastings dates that African songs, musical instruments, languages and dance light at the very heart of its communal and artistic inheritance. I aim to therefore show this creative aspects of African epistemology by using novels as an important source of anthropology within my thesis, and also by incorporating autobiographical criticism.   05:37 This therefore, introduces a much needed rich diversity of global north and global south epistemologies within scholarship. Next slide, please. So my research has three main questions. The first question, please, Laura, is how can New Testament characters be read and interpreted in new ways through a feminist Nigerian British lens? The second question is, what are the unique questions that a feminist Nigerian British Africans will have been approaching the biblical text? And finally, what challenge does this approach pose to a discipline of Biblical Studies? Next slide please. In my thesis, I aim to look at six female New Testament biblical characters. The first is the Canaanite woman in Matthew chapter 15, verses 21 to 28. Then the woman who washed his feet with her hair, in Luke chapter seven, verse 36, to 50, the Samaritan woman at the well, in John chapter four, verses seven to 42, the Pythian slave girl, in Acts chapter 16, verses 16 to 34 and finally commodious, his daughter, in Mark chapter six verses 1721. And Nigerian British hermeneutical lens aims to provide a new way in which to ask questions of this biblical characters. That that, for the first time reflects the specific concerns, values, and interpretive interests of the female Nigerian British experience. My lens does not provide historically grounded solutions to these questions. Rather, it aims to present the new possibilities and maybe the biblical text that have not been explored before and biblical interpretation. It is to be noted that this new feminist Nigerian British lens is not primarily intended to offer constructive theology, or to resource pastors with material with which to preach the church context. It is specifically intended to be disruptive be not destructive sorry, disruptive to the euro North American biblical interpretation daven domination within the academy. Next slide, please. Do too much complexity of the Nigerian British context. This study lends itself to a multidisciplinary methodology, method method methodological approach that incorporates methods from both the global north and Global South. Now therefore, it's five main elements within my African feminist Nigerian British lens. First, it includes Nigerian participants. Secondly, it includes feminist critical readings. Third, includes creative actualization. Fourth, is includes secular novels. And finally, it draws upon critical autobiography. In this way, it draws upon methods rooted in both global north and global south epistemology. It takes a multidisciplinary approach, drawing upon literary criticism, feminist studies, gender studies, postcolonial studies and anthropology. Next slide, please. To ensure that my feminist Nigerian British lens truly addresses the specific concerns and interpretive interests of female Nigerian British people, it is crucial that the key themes within this unique context are identified. In order to do this, I first studied several novels, written by Chimamanda Adichie Ngozi, who originates from a similar hybrid context to to meet so she is an American Nigerian novelist. So I use her work in order to create a scaffold of the potential scenes that might that may be present in Nigerian British identity. Next slide please.   10:11 Then read novels, specifically by female Nigerian British authors, such as Bernadine Evaristo inhabit gold and other and Emma theory and habit, don't touch my hair. I also drew upon my own experiences of being in Nigeria and British women, in order to help choose the themes that I felt most reflected the specific concerns, values and interpreted interests of Nigeria of British women. From my research, I found that there were there were four main themes that emerged from these novels. The first mother and daughter is generally intergenerational relationships. Second, Afro hair, third, marital relationships, and fourth, retrieving a last Nigerian epistemology. In order to stimulate and inform a fresh engagement with the biblical characters, I will be using the themes within these novels. The rationale for using novels secular novels, to illuminate themes within the biblical text originates from the 1870s, in which fictional novels began to acquire the respect once only accorded exclusively the biblical narrative. Previous scholars, such as Northrop, have since used sector novels alongside the biblical text, in order to illuminate mythological structures within the Scripture. scholars such as Alison Longfellow have also reached reimagined scriptural themes using secular novels. In her book, Bible and Bedlam, Louise Lawrence also use novels written by the author, Betsy head to elucidate new lines of inquiry than the Pythian slave girl in Acts chapter two. Oh, next slide, please. So on the next slide, okay, sorry, previous slide. My thesis uses novels in a similar way to Lawrence, by using secular novels written by Nigerian feminist offers, in order to illuminate the theme within Afro paganism. Although these authors did not have an explicit interest in biblical interpretation, and do not identify themselves explicitly as Afro pIan. My rationale for choosing them to embody the afro pIan theme is because they're written by Nigerian British women. As such, their work offers a new way into New Testament biblical study that moves beyond the binary ethnic categories within feminist postcolonial scholarship, and develops a more hybrid intersectional approach. These novels will be used to stimulate creative imagination about the possibilities within the story by using the characters but then, as analogies for the biblical biblical characters. I will not explore each thing and outline how you use it to illuminate new questions of the biblical character. Next slide, please. So the social location of Afro paganism brings a unique complexity to intergenerational family relationships, specifically with regards to mothers and daughters. The implications of occupying a hybrid racial identity, a multi generational as each generation moves beyond a national identity towards the unfixed heterogeneous concept of identity. This thing, and specifically explore the theme of mother and daughter relationships. And in order to do that I use Ben Dean every stone is gone women either. As an author ever Risto strives to explore the hidden narratives of the African diaspora diaspora, to play with ideas, conjure up original and innovative fiction and forms and to subvert expectations and assumptions. Her novel go woman either, especially able to disrupt flats, and parochial assumptions regarding black female characters in the UK, in order to convey the diverse ways that characters respond to their context. The incident and the intergenerational relationship between mothers and daughters is a central theme then, then this novel is amplified by generational element within the novel girl woman other   15:01 This theme is going to help me re reimagine the Canaanite woman. And it does so by making me aware of issues such as race and ethnicity and in intergenerational patterns. Next slide, please. Don't touch my hair, written by Mr. Barbieri. It's an iconic piece of literature, which is half autobiography and half black cultural history, and it has captured the attention of scholars. within it. The theory presents her own autobiographical experience of having Afro hair of having her hair policed and denigrated as a child brought up in in Ireland. It also explores the cultural and colonial history behind the decimation of Afro hair that stands right from the afro from ancient times, right up until social media in modern times. In this book, to bury aim to uncover the racist underpinnings of the categorization of Afro hair in the UK. Hair is the central theme within Afro paganism. This theme of Han will be used to explore the assumptions that previous scholarship has made with regards to the woman who was Jesus's feet with her hair in Luke chapter seven. The aim is to bring out new questions and new possibilities that no one has ever thought before. Did this woman have normative hair in her context? Does she have Straight European hair? Was she perceived as other because of her? What pretty what prejudice prejudices? Could she have faced on account of her hair? How did these insights offer a new reading also women who washed his feet with her hair in the chapter seven perspectives, the 15th. We will be revisiting this at the end and you'll be using it as an example of how to apply my new framework. Next slide please. In QA, Where is your husband, written by Lizzie Damilola Blackburn opens with his mother praying for her to be delivered from singledom and completely humiliated her in front of her friends and her family. This incident highlights two unique and significant themes within black bands. But that could open a whole new door for new interpretation of the women as as in John chapter four. Nigerian British women are especially subjected to parental and wider kinship obligations to marry. Ideally, a Nigerian or a member of Nigerian diaspora and they are pressured to reproduce. This phenomenon is endemic within the UK and is known to result in psychological pressure and most Nigerian British young women. This insight regarding Blackburn's book creates a whole new and exciting line of inquiry with regards to the Samaritan woman. Was she pressured potentially into getting married? Was she a victim of her parents pressure? These are questions that this book illuminates when biblical text net five years historic epistemic injustice has deemed all non western cultures to be inferior, and enforced the marginalization of elements of indigenous epistemic frameworks. Over time, due to a colonial mentality rooted in the erasure of Britain the arrival of British missionaries to Nigeria in 1842. Europe a diaspora like myself have become increasingly distant from their culture and language. The novel butterflyfish Britain by relevant ecology allies with nascent movement scholarship that have sought to objectively contextualize indigenous social relations and culture, which in the past has been described as primitive, crude, backward and they have Koji, who is a female black British author, born in Benin, uses her novel to successfully tilt the worlds of Western reasons, and introduce them to new ways of looking at the world based on an African epistemology.   19:49 Within her narrative, a koji intentionally shifts between the real and the unreal and explores multiple temporalities in concurrent It tracks in order to radically disrupt Western epistemic readings, and to affirm that Africa symbology is valid. This book seeks to retrieve and affirm a lost Europe epistemology that has inspired me to look at the Pythian slave girl in Acts chapter 16 in a different light, it has inspired me actually to think about questions that hasn't been asked before of the text. How is money viewed in an African context? These questions haven't been illuminated by the text by the by the nozzle, and open a new line of inquiry from political text. Next slide, please. So this is my supervisor. Her name is Professor with Lawrence and I'm talking about her earlier about the rationale behind us novels as as tools in which to really illuminate things from the biblical text. So in her book by William Bedlam, she used a book by Betsy head of question of power, which is kind of like a magnet narrative. And she's an African author Bessie head. So Louise retinues, used her work in order to illuminate new question of the Pythian safeguard, and her work really inspired me to do the same. Next slide. Lost my place. Yes, in my work, I also incorporate my own personal experiences of being a Nigerian British women. In the last 20 years, the genre of memoir has gone undergone a complete shift. This shift has led to the creation of a sub genre called critical autobiography that reflects the craft of classic. What's great that critical autobiography is a sub genre of memoir, and does not conform to the traditional definition of nonfiction. This allows room for this ever evolving stop genre of memoir that contains attributes that is not normally attributes nonfiction, is a trickster methodology that is particularly relevant to liberation are in orientated African Bible reading. In a call critical autobiography, is successful and liberated reading of biblical characters, as it provides context specific language that can enrich and complicate older biblical images that have become timeworn, one dimensional and dualistic. Due to the effects of of the global north colonizing Africa, black people, like myself, have only encountered representations of themselves as the object of the surveyors gaze, the exotic native other of anthropology. In southern theory, Raewyn. Connell highlights that historically, westward expansion for the Global North, including silencing the voice of the Global South, leading to the global north domination, but as currently seen in literature, autobiography, or auto ethnography is therefore a powerful method of methodological tool, especially with an African feminism, as it avidly contest essentialism and recognises the plurality of women's lives, rather than privilege for a theory. One notion of a woman black women's voices have been doubly oppressed with regards to race and gender. Due to the intersection of both racial and gender discrimination or spa graphic cuisine therefore, is a powerful means for previous colonized women to take back control of their voice and assert cultural agency and uncover their original native views. As interesting a quote, my personal experience is a valid source of research.   24:34 Autobiography enables female researchers from ethnic minority like myself, to specifically locate themselves and in their research, and gift their readers with a privileged insight into their worldviews and ontology, which otherwise would be completely unacceptable. It gives an invaluable opportunity for minority researchers to feel empowered to share their story. arrays were before they had been silenced. Next slide, please. And return this book chapter, liberating African theology. He states that if now if there is no responsibility for post colonial scholars to expose the dehumanization of Africans, colonial Imperial dispossession, robbery and oppression, all of which have 14 African peoples, and to ensure that African culture and custom ologies are revived and resented. In his article, what is African biblical hermeneutics, a Darmowe desire scholars of African descent to be liberated from internalized colonized consciousness in which they adopt the colonizers epistemology in conducting Biblical Studies. He empowers them to instead use their genius to redefine their own particular hermeneutics. Contrary to global North epistemology, the African worldview can be described as mythopoetic, placing a heavy emphasis on symbols, myths, and stories. Global South epistemology places a heavy emphasis on orality and memoirs. This is shown in the many works of memoirs by black female authors such as a woman alone, by Betty head, or unbowed.   26:42 Women have been told in the past, that their experiences cannot be considered universal, but only particular and trivial. By using autobiography. It gives women like myself a voice within scholarship, where previously we have been silenced. Next slide, please. Finally, I use creative actualization to create a new interpretation. Creative actualization allows women to enter the biblical story with the help of historical imagination, artists that were creation and creativity. It gives the biblical interpreter creative license with which to create new possibilities to the assumptions that have been made about female New Testament biblical characters in western paradigms. Although this methodology originated in the Global North, women in Africa have always invented creative ways of retelling biblical events in a way that African women specifically can relate to. My feminist Nigerian British reading of biblical characters, aims to combine both global north and global south mythologies by using logos written by Nigerian British women in order to stimulate new creative possibilities. Okay, that's five G's. We can quickly do it really quick quickly. So the steps needed to apply my feminist hermeneutical framework because of biblical text, I wanted to make it as simple as quick as possible, quick and easy as possible. So the first step is to pick an afro peon theme. So like the ones that I picked that I said at the beginning, so you would pick one, and then you would pick a New Testament character that you would like to explore. Second step is to pick a novel. So any Nigerian British novel that you feel could illuminate new questions of the biblical text of the of the biblical character? Step three. So then you would think about your own autobiographical experience of being in that context with with regards to the thing, whether it be about hair or about marriage. So we're gonna see an example of that at the end. Step four. So you will apply a feminist critical lens to the biblical text. This means applying what Firenza calls a hermeneutics of suspicion with with regards to the biblical text, which means that you'd be suspicious of how it's been interpreted and interrogate the text. Basically, it will recognize that actually, the Bible was written by men, and therefore men will privilege men, and therefore, as a woman, now, looking at the biblical text, my work aims to put women at the center and look at their stories. Finally, you will use creative actualization in order to think about the possibilities that have been ignored or or that could have occurred that had been ignored by Western paradigms. And next slide, please. Okay, so today we're gonna just do a really brief example of applying this hermeneutical framework to the woman who was Jesus's feet with her hair in Luke chapter 35 to 50. So throughout the centuries, oh, click please. Thank you. Dominant Western interpretations of this woman have hyper sexualized her hair in order to portray her as a prostitute who erotically massage the feet of Jesus. Next slide, please. However, in the West, or sorry, the No, back east, so long hair in the West, has for centuries, been both a gender side and a sex symbol in our society. Doorman exegesis has therefore ignored alternative possibilities to explain this woman's on bound hair. And for those who don't know the story of this woman in the Bible, so this woman,   31:10 Jesus is sitting down, and she comes completely uninvited, and lets down her hair, and washes her feet, what's it what is His feet with her hair, and I noticed it with oil. For scholars have always interpreted this woman as being some sort of prostitute or of being some sort of erotic woman, because in that context, apparently, having long hair was indicative of being a prostitute. But when you interrogate the text further, you realize that actually this assumption is based on Western epistemologies. It's based on Western context, where bear in in the West, long hair has been used as a sex symbol. It may not be that concept in African concept. So next slide, please. By using me to Barry's book, don't touch my hair. She introduces the key concepts that will be Afro pain, epistemology, hair has power in different ways. Click please. She goes on to say to this day, oh, back is, to this day, an African and Afro diasporic cultures, people remain hesitant about their cell falling into a stranger's hands. If someone had access to your hair from a comb. For example, they could do witchcraft or a bear on you. Clip please. My ultimate biographical experience of othered hair in a western context also highlights the fact that hair can be a symbol of displacement and rejection, not just sexuality. This is reflected in the fact that I am often asked, When am I going to do my hair, alluding to the fact that my hair is bad and needs to be tamed. By juxtaposing Don't touch my hair, and my own autobiographical experience along kind of give a context, it allows me to ask new and exciting questions. What was the potential power of this woman's hair at that time? If we desexualize her hair? What could she have been doing? If not erotically inside in the feet of Jesus? My feminist Nigerian participants exposes the male dominated Eurocentric assumptions regarding hat that has informed this dominant interpretation of this woman being a prostitute. And it has highlighted the fact that hair is considered completely differently within a Nigerian British context. Therefore, within Nigerian British interpretation, this woman's hat could be a symbol of colonization, otherness, and displacement within a context for women's hair, had a cultural and religious barriers. How taken out her hair therefore, may not be an indication that she was a prostitute, but could be an act of liberation, as she can refuse to conform to the expectations placed upon her this allies with my experience of having an afro within a Eurocentric context. Next slide. And then next slide please. Next, please, skip this because of time. Oh, no backpack back please. So Oh, back please. On one. Thank you. In this light, and a feminist Nigerian British Oh, no, forward please. Sorry. In light of this, a feminist Nigerian interpretation of this character. Ultimately, two picks her as the positive, heroic female prophet s, who vocalized her resistance to the claim realism and patriarchal control of her day through the haptic of her hair. This woman, on doing her hair in public, in order to dry Jesus's feet, was not a sexual thing at all, as Western Western Think Western interpretation has said, Instead, it could be a prophetic act. She could have been using her her to symbolically. Yeah, you could have been using a hat to embody Christ's function within the end the end times to wipe every tear from people's eyes. She could have also been touching, touching his hair, talking Jesus's feet in order to prophetically prepare Jesus's body for burial. So next slide. So yeah, how? How could an African interpretation, challenge Biblical Studies? Firstly,   36:13 it disrupts your North American domination within Biblical studies. So it interrogate interpretations that have just been taken as normal and taken as normative. Secondly, it exposes the assumptions that have been made about identity and where it lies. So a lot of these interpretations haven't been questioned. And so my interpretation exposes these assumptions that have been made. And finally, it challenges the academy about what constitutes realistic knowledge. So by using autobiography, and using novels within biblical texts, that hasn't been done before, that kind of challenges Western epistemology by saying, Actually, no, you can use novel as a source of data, you can use my own experience as a source of research is valid. And actually, the fact that it hasn't been valid up to this point is actually a indication of colonialism. That needs to be decolonized. And we need to make sure that other people have a voice at the table.   37:22 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

This series of podcast episodes will focus on Decolonising Research, and feature talks from the Decolonising Research Festival held at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. The eighth epsiode of the series will feature Dr. Marq Smith from University College London and his talk 'Whiteness, positionality, allyship and doing the work.'   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcription   00:09 Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development, and everything in between.   00:32 So, hi, everyone. I'm Amy Shakespeare, and this is my colleague, Deborah Ashfield. And we're going to be presenting together today, we're both first year PhD students at the University of Exeter's Penryn campus. And we wanted to do something for the decolonizing Research Festival. And we're originally kind of thinking of doing separate presentations or workshops. But then we realized sort of how much overlap there actually is between our seemingly different research interests. So I'm based in the history department, and Deborah is based in the English department. So I just kind of wanted to caveat today's presentation by saying that it's very much a work in progress. It's very kind of experimental and drawing the two things together and seeing how they sort of work in dialogue with each other. And so we're just trialing some ideas here today. And we're really grateful that you're kind of here to join us for that. And we'd very much welcome any feedback that you have, or any sort of thoughts that it sparks for yourselves. And we're hoping to leave some time to open up the discussion at the end of the session for us all to think about extraction, and last and absence within our own work. And they'll also be time for questions, but do feel free as we're going through to pop questions in the chat. And then maybe we can kind of have more of a unmute and, and free for all at the end. So   02:16 yeah, so we're going to be talking a little bit over kind of force of the next half an hour, 45 minutes, between jumping between ourselves and then opening out to everyone else to join in, we're going to start off talking about kind of some of the differences between terms like decolonizing, and decolonial. What kind of nuances and politics and differences kind of in between, between those two terms are. Then I'm going to move into talking a little bit about extraction and the refusal extraction. So I'm going to be talking a bit about extractive research practices and how these relate to extractive colonialism, colonialism. And then we're going to be thinking a bit about connections between anti extractivism and anti colonialism and research. Then Amy's gonna be chatting a bit about the role of loss in relation to her research, which looks at repatriation, from UK museums to indigenous communities, and so called Canada. And then she's going to be thing, she's going to be talking a bit about the kind of the potential absence and what the absence is left by spaces might mean and what kind of possibilities that might lie there. Particularly in terms of anticolonial practice and spaces.   03:51 Yeah, so that's kind of, as Deb said, an overview. We wanted to start by just asking whether you sort of can use a reaction or the hands up function. Do you consider your work to be decolonial or decolonizing? So yeah, just do either a thumbs up reaction if you do or the hands up. Okay, so got a couple. Great, so a few people do. Brilliant. And now we wanted to ask, do you consider your work to be anti colonial? And the same thing again? One, two, okay. So fairly even split between decolonial anti colonial, which is really interesting. So, you may be familiar with this article from Turkey. And young decolonization is not a metaphor. But we really wanted to sort of introduce a few key quotes from the article to start today's session off. Both Deborah and I use the term anticolonial, rather than decolonial. And tackling Yanga and a few others have been key to us both separately, I should say, but both coming to that conclusion. And it might seem like semantics, but actually, there's really kind of powerful meaning behind the term decolonization and so as this quote says, decolonization brings about the repatriation of indigenous land and life, it is not a metaphor for other things we want to do to improve our societies and schools. So we can see here that that message is very much about land back and life back. And so thinking about how does can research be decolonial? Or is there another word like anticolonial, that might fill that space better?   06:12 And so yeah, talk to me and go on to talk about this trend noticed, which we'll kind of all be familiar with. And they say when one trend that we've noticed with growing apprehension is the ease with which the language of decolonization has been superficially adopted into education and other social sciences, supplanting prior ways of talking about social justice, critical methodologies, or approaches, which approaches which dissenter, dissenter settler perspectives. And this is, it's like a really kind of key message that runs through their their art article is that decolonization isn't a synonym for diversification or for inclusion, or for kind of the many, like, really, like really important kind of like social justice oriented, anti racist, kind of work, and critical methods. And pedagogies that happened in university spaces. And so they kind of, yeah, they just are, they push on this this term, decolonial and decolonizing, and the ways that it's been adopted into the university, and it's used in university spaces, in kind of really interesting ways that yeah, kind of unsettle some of the ways that kind of, we're trained to think about what decolonize what decolonization is, and means.   07:41 Yeah, and then this final quote, that we've picked out, kind of alludes to what Debs was just talking about, in terms of, even if the work that we're doing is out, you know, outrightly clearly anti racist, even if it's for social justice, or critical of what's gone before, this harm that the term can do in terms of, you know, killing the possibility of decolonization, really centering whiteness, thinking about that sort of white guilt, and that sort of idea of, of the Savior as well. I think that, that adoption of the term decolonization plays into all of those things, and can be quite problematic. So we just really wanted to start with that, as I say, to kind of outline why we'll be talking in terms of anti colonial you know, it's not without its own critiques, which I think Deborah's gonna go on to talk about, but just really outlining that difference, and, and why we're making it. So yeah, I'm gonna hand it over to Deborah now to talk about extraction and extractivism.   08:57 Hi, yeah, so um, I just kind of as a kind of as a little bit of preamble pre blurb, I work kind of between contemporary poetry studies, soundscape studies, critical technology studies bioacoustics, kind of broadly under the Environmental Humanities, umbrella. And I, but today, I'm going to be talking mainly about reading and reading methods more generally. And the place of practicing refusal and retooling in relation to extractive research logics and extractive reading practices. I yeah, I work on poetry mainly. So reading and close reading in particular is fairly central in terms of methods that I use. So what I'm going to be talking about in the next kind of 15 minutes or so it's kind of an experimental live bibliography, or sort of process of walking back through and with some of the texts, thinkers, tools, complications and tensions that are continually structuring and dissolving the structure of my practice. Yeah, so I work on extractivism. And particularly in my research, I think a lot about the ways in which looking out for and paying attention to the tendencies towards extractivism. And extractive logics in research methods and practices can give us information about where the worn habits of colonialism, conquest etcetera, reside and take root in our disciplinary and interdisciplinary methods and practices. So, what do we mean when we talk about extractivism? In these terms? Is it different from extraction? How does it manifest in the modern university in teaching and research? What does it mean to be anti extractive and how does all of this relate to colonialism, colonialism and the practice of carrying out anti colonial research or using anti colonial methodologies and you can get to the next slide. Thank you. So, let's begin with some definitions. Etymologically the verb to extract comes from the Latin extra hearing to draw out the term moved into popular circulation in the late 16th, early 17th centuries, and kind of quickly came to signify the often violent process of getting out the contents of anything by force, taking out anything embedded or firmly fixed, also refers to the process of taking from something of which the thing taken was a part. In early you said and still now it revert it refers to various processes of kind of obtaining constituent elements, juicers, etc, from a thing or substance by suction pressure, distillation, or any chemical or mechanical operation, both personal and material agents. So the employment of these various forms of force as a means for assuming access to so called resources, is an ongoing Pologne act, enactment of colonial and capitalist logics that rely upon self maximization and profit as justification for harm. However, I argue, in my work alongside many others, that the problem of extraction and extractivism doesn't necessarily begin and end with whether or not harm and damage are immediately visible, or perceptible as a result of the process of extraction. My project begins when the position and ethic of obligation and reciprocity must replace an extractive model an extractive knowledge economy, in order for, in order to produce knowledge in ways that stand up outside the logics that govern the colonial academic industrial complex. So I'm, I'm entangled with, obviously, we all are, and working within the parameters of this well established, dominant Western New colonial system of knowledge production. And it's therefore inevitable in my project that I'm inadvertently reproducing some of the assumptions and violence is that it's awesome. But I'm also hoping to kind of diagnose and interrupt and in a third University as possible, which is an amazing text, by the way, thoroughly recommend it. The person puts this split obligation really well in his discussions of the ways in which the first, second and third universities, of which the dynamic between the three he explains really well, and I recommend going and reading it.   13:34 Yeah, he explains this split obligation between the three universities which are all coexisting in a kind of constantly malfunctioning machine or assemblage of knowledge and practices. So he says, regardless of its kind of colonial structure, because school or the university is an assemblage of machines, and not a monolithic institution, its machinery is always being subverted towards decolonizing purposes. The bits of machinery that make up the decolonizing University are driven by decolonial desires with decolonizing dreamers who are subversively part of the machinery and part machine themselves. So I'm talking about in terms of the split obligations. These subversive beings wreak scavenge, retool and reassemble the colonizing university into decolonizing contractions. They're cyborgs with a decolonizing desire, you might choose to be one of them. In the third University, which is also inside of the first and second universities. The tools and methods owned by the first university are susceptible to being co opted to anti colonial abolitionist post disciplinary, creative and laboratory and due to my projects focus on taking and interrogating the extractive and colonial origins, uses and entanglements of various tools. methods between the sciences and the humanities. I work kind of in soundscape study. So I think a lot about hydrophones underwater microphones in relation to kind of close reading methods in the humanities. Le pathosans text here provides powerfully grounding ways in which to envisage how this kind of CO option of tools might be enacted as participation in an ongoing collaborative interdisciplinary transnational and trans historical practice of refusing the extractive logics of the first and second universities. Often though, these logics of extractivism and automatic access might not be immediately or obviously identifiable as such. Often they're veiled by suggestions of environmental goods, benevolence, in essence, care. But care in itself can be violent care can be a violation. Our work as Catherine McKittrick puts it so brilliantly can you go to the next sliding? Thank you. Work as Catherine McKenna, McKittrick puts it so brilliantly in data science and other stories to another key kind of methodological texts for my project is to notice this logic, your recursive logic that depicts our presently Ecocide or in genocide or wild as normal and unalterable and breach it. dislodging by biocentric system of knowledge and showing that the natural sciences the humanities and the social sciences are when thought together generative sites of inquiry. One way in which McKittrick suggests doing this noticings breaching of colonial logics is through attention to the politics of citation are our bibliographies extractive did they reproduce the same colonial logics that structure so much of our learning and teaching in the modern Western University. McKittrick calls out how sometimes citation practices do not take the time to feel and recognize liberation. Sometimes referencing signals illusion rather than study. This image of a work cited page containing references to books chapters, articles have been skim read. For neat confirming quotations. Best was kind of all too familiar when I first came across it. Reading McKittrick, I was reminded of and convicted by the ways in which the academy continues to teach and reward deeply colonial acts of extractivism and reading and the ways in which these practices of extractive reading have real material effects.   18:00 are in the waiting room and I've been steadily picked?   18:03 Go back to the one before. Yeah, perfect. So McKittrick offers an alternative, then a sort of next one. Sorry. McKittrick offers an alternative. She says What if the practice of referencing sourcing and crediting is always bursting with intellectual life and takes us outside ourselves? What if we read outside ourselves not for ourselves but to actively or know ourselves? to unhinge enough to come to know each other intellectually, inside and outside the academy Academy, as collaborators have generous and of collective and generous and capacious stories. So I hope that by refusing the logics of unit directionality in reading, automatic access, consumption, possession, and self maximization that characterize these colonial macho modes of knowledge production, but we're also well acquainted with, we remain accountable to and engage in other kinds of readerly possibilities and intertextual relationships. These relationships Well, I hope, expand already do extend beyond the confines of extractive so called objective academic reading and research economies and towards practices of accountability, specificity, reciprocity, caution and exchange. These four melodics of extractivism and objectivity are characteristic of what Max libera on in their book pollution is colonialism and other texts which has been foundational to establishing my methodological and theoretical frameworks as well as my citation on politics has called Resource relations. We can move on to the next one. That's okay. Thank you. Part of how LeBron theorizes really resource relations doesn't necessarily travel Allow from the island of Newfoundland on the ancestral traditional homelands of the Baytech unseeded ancestral traditional lands of the Baytech in so called Canada, to the UK, where I am liberal unexplained resource relations, as referring to the morality of maximum use of resources, dispossession and property as a way to control both time and space to secure settler and colonial futures. Because the province of Newfoundland and Labrador exists in the broader context of a settler state and Canada, its relationship to colonialism is different to here in the UK at the former heart of empire, though the two places are closely entangled with each other. The ways in which colonialism functions and persist in these spaces is different and bears different consequences. However, the concept of resource relations itself is still extremely useful and instructive here. And particularly for talking about how to read in a different kind of relation that isn't consumptive, violent or extractive. This is especially important when engaging with the work of those whose ideas and knowledge have historically been othered left out CO opted, stolen, or overwritten in time in favor of maintaining the colonial Imperial, gendered and racialized status quo in the academy. Elsewhere Libran discusses continues discussions of resource relations and extractive knowledge economies in specific terms relating to reading practices in academic work and writing. The social into an intellectual stakes surrounding these kinds of obligations they explain are high, they particularly talk about me guess next slide, okay. They particularly talk about the ways in which the norms of value and valuation that underlie how we are taught to read and write are also the ones that force us out of academic pipeline pipelines and into trauma. In addition to the social stakes, there are intellectual stakes. The problem with one way extractive transmission of knowledge is that the way knowledge is transmitted, acutely affects the type of knowledge transmitted, extractive reading can only result in one kind of knowledge transmission acquisition, working simultaneously inside of and and against a system that profits from extractive reading and citation of economies the academy and alternative reading and citation practice that notices and offers clues. On potential methods for working towards an economy of reciprocity is vital. These practices include proper relational debt, generous, citation, annotation, deep engagement, time span, and more.   23:01 Work working within this concept of reading within an ethic of reciprocity, rather than in an economy of extractivism. The reader is required to acknowledge that being in relation with and to a text and its authors, crucially outside of kind of one's own head. These practices of embracing the the refusal of extractive research methods and specifically extractive reading relations have slowed me down considerably in the best ways, and forced me to reckon with the usual pushes towards long, tight, comprehensive bibliographies. Illuminating the colonial capitalist and self maximizing performativity, they'll enter these urges when these bibliographies are constructed on the basis of kind of skim reading, and extractive reading. Embracing this refusal has caused me to pause and refrain when the instinct cuts in to add a reference for a text that I'm not yet well enough acquainted with. This is a practice of refusal in progress in process and constantly under review.   24:16 isn't me? Yes. Yeah. So kind of going on. From Deborah, my work, as I said, at the beginning might seem quite different. But hopefully, as we go through, it'll become clearer why we've linked them. So what happens when we do refuse extraction led me to thinking about what happens when we can't preserve everything in museums, the tendency is, you know, extract, collect, preserve, and even today with kind of contemporary collecting that museums are pushed to do, that is what they will do. You know, for example, in the Black Lives Matters, protests happen And they went out, they took the placards, put them in their collection, what is the next move. So we might not be able to extract because we're using anti colonial methodologies or for sustainability reasons or accepting that consent has not been given or maybe taken away. And this is kind of where our research starts to overlap. So I look at the anti colonial spaces left by the return of cultural items, from youth head museums to indigenous communities a couple of decades ago, and even up until relatively recently, one of the repeated arguments against repatriation was that it might lead it would lead to a so called slippery slope, and UK museums would empty. Now that might tell you how much isn't UK museums that shouldn't be. But it's also plainly not true, both because not everything in museums as stolen. And because communities often don't want or can't accommodate having everything back that has been stolen. And I'm still grappling with the word loss as it has such negative connotations. In most instances, museum teams today are pleased when a repatriation occurs, meaning that an item can be back with its rightful community. But I'm finding that there's still this element of saying goodbye of curators letting go of something that they believe it's their duty to care for, of a loss. And so I'm looking at different ways museums prepare for this loss and how some choose to embrace it. So I'm focusing on these spaces both metaphorical and physical, that would be left by items that had been returned, and what the potential for those spaces are. Some curators are keen on ethically purchasing contemporary art from the community that they have returned items to, however, you can then end up with more extraction, or with contemporary pieces from communities still being poorly interpreted, or like the vast majority of items being hidden inside storage facilities in perpetuity. And museums have continually collected objects to tell more stories about people and events and can now be described as agencies for managing profusion. However, there are often gaps in collections that being museums supposedly do not have the objects to tell the stories that they want to, or that they can avoid telling truthful stories of colonialism. And this can mean that themes or issues are missed out of exhibitions. So essentially, by putting artifacts at the center of exhibition, it limits the issues available for discussion. Equally, objects that the museums know little about tend to remain neglected. And many museums try to rearrange objects around absence or collect or create new objects to fill gaps. So to Sylvie talks about how there is this persistent museological assumption that the meaning if a sense of an artifact can best be sustained by securing its physical permanence, and this idea of conservation and securing permanence, as I've said, is extraction in and of itself, is a colonial idea that harks back to the formation of many museums in the Victorian era, the false idea and justification that indigenous people were dying out, and therefore their items needed to be preserved for future generations. Coupled with this, continuing to collect fuels a fundamental problem with museum practice and conservation, which is the fact that museums have become completely unsustainable, due to their storage facilities bursting full of collections that never see the light of day. But as the Silvie writes, on the flip side of this, museums often feel that loss equals erasure, to syllabi concludes that the act of saving something means we become implicated in its biography, once you have this intrinsic link to lose that item would be to lose our identities to. So I believe that the fear around repatriation is the idea of losing our colonial identities, losing that Imperial nostalgia, and there's anxiety associated with that surrender.   29:18 Many museums like universities are seeking to decolonize but as Deborah has just talked about, what about when this permanence comes at a cost of extraction, when this item was never meant to be permanent, never meant to be preserved? Or when our preservation of something suffocates or kills a living being? What does this mean for anticolonial practice? And Harrison someone's drilling? Harrison wrote that there is an acceptance that new ways of carrying collecting, curating and communicating the values of heritage must be conceived to accept the inevitability of change, that everything cannot be extracted, saved and preserved and to move away From traditional conservation, I'm just going to close my window to see if that helps.   30:11 So I'm really interested in this provocation made last month that a brilliant event, which I believe was recorded and is or will be available online. This was from zooming qu who asked, what is the non colonial word for conservation. And I've changed that as to what is the anti colonial word for conservation. Seeming was talking about scientific and ecological conservation being a means to continue Imperial resource extraction. But I think that you can make an argument that heritage conservation, and indeed resource rate sorry, and indeed, research is also a means to continue Imperial resource extraction. And this idea of ethically conducting contemporary art to fill the space of repatriated items feeds into that. So rather than looking at ways to fill these spaces with more items, I follow the absence, I look at the spaces left by or awaiting the return of cultural items. And I argue that within this absence, anti colonial practice can be found. The problematic nature of the display of objects is becoming clearer as museums seek to decolonize. But absence has usually been viewed as negative and museums faces. The idea that and rightly so if an if a community were absent from an archive they weren't represented. For instance, Tally talks about the act of absence thing, where museums choose not to display or not to act session objects into their collection, showing how the museum instead of documenting heritage actually produces its own heritage. And this has linked to the idea of Imperial nostalgia, where museums are places where colonialism is historicized, and glorified. On top of this, you often find that in the interpretation of indigenous items, still today, those communities are talked about in the past tense. So where there is a presence of objects, there is still an absent thing of the communities and absence that historicize is them, and makes them seem like they did die out. The Silvia however, argues that absence can facilitate the Persistence of Memory and significance. spaces created by communities getting their items back can provide such an absence. And I argue that museums should embrace these new absences created by repatriation so that anti colonial stories can be told, without the need to retain or display cultural items that perpetuate colonial violence and are often poorly interpreted. So this quote from Neil Curtis is about a temporary exhibition he curated in 2003, called going home museums and repatriation. And this was off the back of the Moorish shell museum where he was the curator, returning a sacred headdress to the horned society of the guy nation. The exhibition featured various sections that showed the story of the head dress, handover ceremony, repatriation debates elsewhere in the UK, and a discussion board that invited visitors to have their say, and Curtis reflected how comments by visitors were almost entirely favorable, such as all of humanity is connected to each other. And so glad to see this as a discussion, I knew very little about procedures and cases of repatriation. A more recent example of exhibiting absence is at the Pitt rivers Museum. They decided to move remove all human remains from display, including the sensor from South America, which the museum was famous for. Now, as you can see, in this image, they have purposely kept the case empty, which stands out amongst the profusion of material in the museum, and have used space to add the word racism into their interpretation, talk about how the previous curation was problematic. The decision to remove human remains from view and the repatriation processes that will now take place. So these examples indicate the anti colonial power of absence. And further evidence of this potential can be seen in a slightly different way, and the aftermath of the removal of colonial statues throughout the UK in the US in 2020, and 2021. Following the Black Lives Matter protests. These removals was different to repatriation and led by the public have already shown how the removal of objects that perpetuate for violence create opportunities for more powerful messaging. For example, this image shows a group of artists who have created the people's platform, which uses augmented reality to show alternative suggestions created by the public for what could take the place of Colston statue in Bristol. They've also generated a lot of public attention and debate on the difficult side objects that their removal highlighted. This shows what opportunity for growth change and something new the return of cultural items might have and what the future of museums could look like.   35:13 So embracing loss and exhibiting absence could dismantle and transform museum practice decentering the object would enable and move beyond the colonial gaze, and center the anti racist anti colonial stance in the post Museum. These spaces may be filled by interpretation written by the indigenous community themselves, becoming a space for truth telling and healing. These spaces will be people centered rather than object centered. And this embracing of loss would enable museums to start to move away from their colonial roots and disrupt Imperial nostalgia. So although I've been talking about museums and repatriation, I think that the theories and ideas behind my work are applicable to research in general, particularly within settings such as UK universities. If we cannot gain consent to extract then we cannot analyze, interpret or preserve this knowledge. And perhaps that is one of the most anti colonial approaches we can take as researchers, where we cannot extract and we embrace loss. That's where really exciting new work can happen. Innovation, should we create something new? Should we try to describe loss? Should we change topic or approach? And how can communities themselves utilize and tell their own truths in these spaces?   36:32 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between

This series of podcast episodes will focus on Decolonising Research, and feature talks from the Decolonising Research Festival held at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. The seventh epsiode of the series will feature Laura Shobiye from Cardiff University and her talk 'Reflexive Positionality Researching Refugee Mothers as Radicalised Mother But Not Refugee.'   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcription   00:09 Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest, about researchers development, and everything in between. Hello, and welcome to this the seventh episode of our series on decolonizing research. This episode features Laura shrubby from the University of Cardiff and her talk reflexive positionality, researching refugee mothers as a racialized mother, but not as a refugee.   00:51 I'm absolutely not, and would not call myself a decolonial, researcher, a decolonial, specialist, or anything along those lines, I think that it is a very complex area. And there are people that specialize in it and do it very well, that I have found very inspiring and that I have learned from. So my work is influenced, be by decolonial approaches, I'd like to think I'm taking some decolonial approaches, but I wouldn't put that label on how I've gone about everything at all. So if you hear things you don't quite fit or or you're not sure. That's partly partly why I've chosen to talk about positionality. Because this is something that I really reflected on in my work, and the title slide kind of gives away, why in a way that I found positionality a really interesting concept when I learned about it. But I really didn't know in some ways how to apply it to myself, and what it might mean for my work. And so had some learning to do, and continue to learn in that respect. And I've come to believe that like reflexive positionality, and in some research is well in all research. But in some in particular, it's really important. And for me, the reason why it was important was well, I'll talk you through that. But initially, just because I'm I'm part of a racialized minority, I'm a mother, I was researching with mothers. And but I was researching with mothers who are to keep the phrase short for now, from refugee backgrounds, which I'm not. So I think, all of us here with an interest in in decolonial research, potentially have that dilemma of how do I sit with, with the social group that I'm researching with my participants in the spaces that I'm going into for one reason or another, either because we are researching with our community, or we're aware that we're coming in as an outsider. But for me, it's a bit of both. So some of who I am, was really, really important. Yes, I was a researcher, a student, a doctoral researcher, but that is absolutely not the be all and end all of who I am. And it's definitely not who I've always been. And who when i Obviously I started the PhD, who I'd been for probably the shortest period of time in my life, compared to all my other identities and all the other characteristics that I have. And I didn't feel that I'd be going into those research spaces as just a researcher. My project is, as I'll talk about more is, is heavily qualitative, focused on subjective experiences. And so I had to think about my own subjective experiences and who I would be to my participants in those spaces, and and it would gatekeepers and who I was for myself as well. So I'm British, this isn't from London, but living in Cardiff. It sort of became more relevant as we went along. I'm a woman My wife and mother sister daughter, not a blacks mixed race. Dodgy typer. I am black mixed race. So Black Heritage, white as well. So mixed race. And I've taught ESL, to English to Speakers of Other Languages, I've taught English as a foreign language. So I've worked with migrant groups. I have   05:30 on the one side, a migrant background, although I was born a British citizen. And I've taught I've got PGCE qualification. I've also done project management, I have a whole load of other things and skill sets and and who I am. And I need to question do I bring that into my my research? Do I bring that into spaces where I'm doing research how much so and how much will come with me, whether I intend it to or not. And that's where reflexive positionality becomes really important. Because we may think one thing at the start, but as we go along, we need to be continually for me continually reflecting continually thinking. But all of that, for me matters in relation to who we're doing the research and for me who we're doing it with. So I was doing research with mothers, who were also asylum seekers, refugees, sanctuary seekers, force migrants displaced, sorry. And for those of you who don't know much about the asylum system, and immigration immigration systems, in the UK, I won't go into lots of detail on the terminology. But an asylum seeker is someone who enters the UK. For them, they're a refugee. And then they claim that they claim the right to refugee status through an asylum claim. So they're called an asylum seeker. It's a concept that does not exist in much of the world, in fact, much of the world, from where, from the areas where asylum seekers that reached the UK may have come from. And there are international conventions. And if I were not talking about positionality, today, I'd go into those in more detail. But in summary, international conventions, the same types of conventions that set up many various rights and international laws in the two or three, post Second World War decades, there is an international convention on refugees, often referred to as the Geneva Convention and a protocol that goes with it. And it's got the criteria for what should count as a refugee. It also enshrined in law, that right to claim asylum, absolutely. Everybody on the planet. According to that international law has the right to claim asylum. And you'd be granted asylum, on the other hand, on the grounds specific grounds in that convention to do with persecution, war, and so on. And in the UK, you may be granted asylum, and granted refugee status, which comes with leave to remain, which is usually five years now. But there are other outcomes. So that's not the only outcome, you may be granted permission to stay leave to remain, but you don't fit. The individual doesn't fit the criteria of the Refugee Convention and the UK legal systems interpretation of that. So then you might be granted humanitarian protection, discretionary leave to remain, and so on, or protection as a stateless person is particularly relevant. And why I've gone into this level of detail here for for women, because when the conventions were written, the fact that sexual violence is used as a tool of war wasn't, wasn't acknowledged or recognized. The consideration of an individual being in danger for reasons of their sex, or as it would have been seen, then I And for things such as domestic violence, again wasn't, wasn't really considered. So that is difficult to argue. Women are part of a social group. But if that whole social group isn't under threat or a large proportion of it, it's just that   10:18 that one woman as it were, it gets trickier. So, women in those types of situations may be granted another type of status. And which may be less than than five years leave to remain, there are generic terms or, or catch all terms because of these layers of complexity that get used. In Wales, which is where I conducted my research, sanctuary seekers, people seeking sanctuary is a term that is used to cover asylum seekers, refugees, anybody else who may need that, that protection and safety that sanctuary. Forced migrants is a term that is often used displaced persons, force migrants, some people love some really don't like and they get those other cat catch all for one of a better phrase terms are used for things such as climate change refugees, so we hear that expression now. But again, that that wasn't that's not a reason set climate change isn't a reason in in the international law. So in summary, to go back over all of those databases of waffled now, mothers, any any mother who says that she was seeking sanctuary is residing in Wales or was residing in Wales at the time that I was conducting my fieldwork in all of those aspects, that of self identifying I accepted participants truths, their identity and their immigration status. I it was, it's about their experiences, their perceptions, I wasn't about to check gender identities, I wasn't about to check claims of motherhood, nor was I going to ask for their legal documentation and go down the road of bordering with my research. So, but there was more more to that, that was those those three points were really effectively my my recruitment criteria, as it were. But there are other aspects to consider. They were visible and all Gristick minorities are for people who are racialized in the UK, they could be married, separated, single, divorced, widowed, they might be living with their children, they might be living separate from their children or some of their children. I did leave scope for for pregnant women. Or those who might be becoming mothers, by other means, student mums, working moms, they might be stay at home mums, which might be a choice or might have been their previous life or their current life. And that might be through choice or through enforced circumstances. All of these were things too, that I considered, that I knew were possibilities, but also that I found as I went along and learn about the women that agreed to participate in my research. So that is all really important for me, and I will continue to explain why in terms of reflexive positionality and the overall kind of overriding reasons why we're here today. And so it's kind of a question of what I was asking, What am I doing? Why am I doing it? So I have my own personal reasons for coming into this. No, it's no coincidence that I was a mother and I researched mothers. My research focusing on their educational and learning experiences, not a coincidence, I taught that I was a student, mother myself. And I'd worked with asylum seekers and refugees in the past teaching and as a volunteer on projects that had led me to a personal interest that had developed over time, but I really didn't want that personal interest to be that kind of that white gaze. So when I was then looking at that academic influences on my work and research kind of approaches, I'm really became informed by in summary Black and intersectional feminism and critical race theory.   15:07 black feminism intersectionality. Thank you, Kimberly Crenshaw, racial capitalism and theories of social reproduction within social capitalism as well. These are all relevant because they help explain the lens, the theoretical lens and the perspective. But overall, I was approaching my work through and looking at it through particularly, the more I did my initial reading, the position that British immigration policy is was, was and is both gendered, racist and racialized. I think, with the issues with Rwanda, and the questions that have come up with the treatment of Ukrainian refugees over others, I think that idea has become quite well accepted quite quickly, in some circles, but when I started my PhD, there were, in fact, I don't even know few months ago, there were people that would still still struggle to understand the structural systemic racism of the British immigration system. So I was looking at and I look at the experiences that women talk to me about through that lens. With that, I discovered decolonial approaches, and which I found relevant, because while there are the forms of model imperialism, which force people to flee from their homes, economic imperialism, political imperialism interference in other countries, the bombs that the US UK like to drop on places,   17:13 and then walk away from or   17:17 question why people are then fleeing from the linguistic colonialism that remains today, as a result of the full legal and political empire, with a legacy that much of the world speaks and learns English, which does have an impact on why asylum seekers may come to British shores. But it also had its impact on me. And why I'm only English and fluent and fluent in English, despite having one parent who wasn't only fluent in English. And the context of conducting a research in the UK where the vast majority of people don't speak more than one language fluently. Although in Wales, obviously, it's a by the UK is bilingual, but Wales bilingual nation. But I needed to consider that I wasn't expecting my participants to be able to speak Welsh, but that I would need to consider translation or interpretation or be conducting my research through the medium of English. It also again, coming back to that positionality and some of those things that I mentioned at the beginning about myself and about my participants was just acknowledging my own privilege as someone who has been a British citizen from birth, and my own potential risks of Savior ism, and that Savior Ristic voyeuristic approach that can be taken in research. And just because I'm from a racialized minority myself, doesn't mean that I'm incapable of being Savior stick. Some of this then also led me towards other methods for qualitative research, beyond observations and interview is dialogical interviews and looking at creative visual, participatory participatory action and collaborative methods. So those influences have led me to lead me to form kind of the overall shape of my approach. Direct, which is ethnographic. And it took me a long time, till quite recently to feel comfortable using that that word about my research because of some of the negative connotations associated with it. And to be sure that I perhaps had hadn't taken that voyeuristic extractive save your Ristic approach entirely. Qualitative, collaborative, longitudinal. And then multimodal, which is the the language and visuals, research. So my word supports more forms of expression and communication than just words, which I'll talk about more next week. I focused on both presenting and analyzing and use the word displaced but perspectives on educational experiences in Wales. I've tried my best to share stories, share voices and share. When I say their humanity as my participants. I haven't given them voices. They had voices already. And I'm not telling their stories. Hopefully, I'm I'm sharing them. And actually, today when I was checking the slides, I changed some wording that I'd used in the past, again continuing to reflect and it's a very humanizing people that have been dehumanized is how I would describe it in the past. But you know what? That in itself may start a started to make me feel a bit uncomfortable, but cloning realistic, perhaps I don't know the language but just sharing their humanity they would never dehumanize. That's something other people   22:06 have done to this group of women. I conducted my interviews, as mother to Mother conversations with creative methods, which I talk about more as I go along. I say Mother to Mother conversations. And, again, I'll touch upon this later. But because of the in my case, the particular perception of which my participants and gatekeepers have of the term interview. And I think when you're reflecting on your position, it's really important to consider the context of who you are, where you're doing your research, who you're doing with your research with where you're doing your research with. Me and I get in there with the thesis and papers, and multimodal, thematic and narrative presentation. And multi modal thematic and narrative analysis. So I've considered how I present my research, not just how I generate, I use the term generate not collect data, and how I analyze it. To me, it's an entire process end to end, and Western academic traditions. There's still a lot of work to be done there. I think in terms of decolonial ality, and the style in which academic work and academic research is presented. So what does all of that mean for my positionality? Well, really, it was mixed, like me, I have that is an intentional plan, in case you're wondering, and it was messy. So for those of you that have started to do some research, or reading around positionality, who know a little bit, there's debates around aren't you have an insider? Or are you an outsider? Are you a black woman researching black women for so an insider? Or are you a white man, researching black woman and therefore an outsider, and then it's not that straightforward for most. So what determines an insider what determines an outsider? Was I both with whom? When and where? And so if I was both was I both in the same ways at the same times in the same places? Was that consistent? Now it's was no, it was really mixed and messy. So to explain that I did my fieldwork in In refugee community and support groups, so yes, I've used the term refugee but again for that for all sanctuary seekers, their support groups, community support groups, women's groups, in particular, and they did that around Wales. For someone who claims asylum in the UK, if they and they need support to VAs vas 90 or percent do financial support, then they are displaced, which means they are sent with no choice to anywhere around the country to dispersal areas. At the time I was doing my work Wales had for the dispersal system is it changing, particularly in Wales in terms of how many there are, but that's how it was set up. And then for those who come through schemes like the Syrian voluntary resettlement program, or the Afghanistan one, and they are, are sent to other areas, so not dispersal areas. The idea of this came with the 1999 Immigration Act and you labor to spread the burden, lovely term. So that it's not wasn't just London and the Southeast and poor areas that we're we're getting the majority of asylum seekers. And that's how the majority of sanctuary seekers come to the UK now, it is as individual asylum seekers, not through schemes. So I traveled around Wales to the four dispersal areas and another area and spent time in these groups. But each part of Wales each of these four cities, has its slightly different makeup has different proportions of the asylum seekers and refugees population in Wales. So, but half are in Cardiff, which is the most diverse city in Wales versus Wrexham, which only has about 5% of asylum seekers dispersed there. And it's a very white population. So yes, that made a difference. To be honest, there also, I am in Cardiff. So some of those groups I spent time in, I took my children to I volunteered in and I just spent time hanging out as just another person there. Others I couldn't get to on such a regular basis. So I went for the purpose of, of generating data, of interviewing participants. But I also tried to spend time just on those visits, just hanging out as it were, as well. And, obviously, I was able to go to women's groups, because I'm a woman. So in that respect, I was an insider, they were run by women, they were attended by women in some of the spaces. They were centers and location where it wasn't just women present. But I tended to be in the room or in the group or there at the time that was dedicated to women or women and children. And I'm visit visibly black, or brown, depending on people's interpretation. And, and a mother and I took my children. So I was visibly a mother, where I didn't take my children to talk about that in a bit. I did make myself visibly a mother, but also audibly British. And I was talking about this earlier today, in some of those spaces. In Wales, where the population is 95% White in those spaces, it was assumed more than once that I was there as an asylum seeker or refugee. Which was interesting. And I don't think unimportant, I think it helped gatekeepers feel more comfortable with me. Arguably, it helped some of the women feel more comfortably comfortable with me, and we could talk about issues of race as well as motherhood and womanhood. But I was also British talking to people with very, very precarious legal immigration status while I have a very, very certain one.   29:53 So I've talked about some of this already, and that in some of my spaces, some of the spaces my status wasn't clear you immediately, and in some it was, and in some, it wasn't. In some it was perhaps unclear. But I didn't try and hide who I was, I was very honest and open open. And at times, I would be in some spaces as just a woman and a mother, a member of the local community joining in. And other times I was there, as the researcher, or flitting between the two and at sign times, I was both, I was in the space as both. And so it wasn't Not, not at all. clear cut. I'm just gonna check. Yeah. So on the right hand side of these slides, you can see that I've got a little clipboard. And I'm going to whiz through now some of the last slides. So I've been talking too much and give a chance for some questions. So what some of this mean, in terms of the practical realities of of how I went about things. So I had, as I said, that deliberate contextual ethical distinction from other forms of interviews, that asylum seekers and refugees may have gone through journalists, perhaps home office interrogations, police interviews in the UK or elsewhere. And that was really important. And I wouldn't have been allowed into one space by one gatekeeper if I hadn't made that distinction. And that I was coming in, as a woman and as a mother, to speak to women and mothers. In that regard, in that way, mother to mother not to go through a list of questions and interrogate. Now, for me, this was really important because I wasn't there to extract data, or extract information, I was having a dialogue kind of conversation with them. So but having a chat over a cuppa, for one of a better analogy, and sometimes quite literally, if it was in a space where I hadn't taken my children, I might introduce myself as a researcher, yes, but also as a mother and show photos of my, of my kids on my phone, they might show me photos of theirs or call their children over and chat with them. That rapport was built so that I could have that dialogue with them, not to fake friendship. And there is a literature that that discusses that. But to to build that rapport and have that dialogue that is, was conversing with with empathize, sympathize, we laugh together a lot, I laughed a lot in interviews with women. And I've maintained friendly contact between interviews, as I was planning a longitudinal, I say planning, because the pandemic got in the way, but I was planning a longitudinal piece of research, which meant I would be returning to the women to ask them if they want were willing to speak with me again. So I'm in contact contact in between. Again, if I'm you know, honest, there's there's something for me as the researcher alone to gain from that making sure I've not lost participants, but also is not being that extractive here I turn up when I want something from you and only then do you hear from me type approach and continuing that consideration so as I said, I generated generated data with my participants, not from them. So dialogue with them, they drew you can see some of the joints here. I provided the materials and they did the drawings with them for like photo elicitation. So that's with them. They chose the photos, they gave the description. I then edited photos later, and they approved my editing.   34:30 The photos were particularly important with the impact of the pandemic as I moved to remote methods and chose not to continue with such an a focus on interviewing because it didn't feel ethically okay. I chosen to go into women's spaces and take myself into their spaces, not bring them into mine. Because ethically that felt the right thing to due for their comfort for their report or for their well being in case they disclose things and got upset or distressed, I didn't feel I could do any of that. In the same way while working remotely, I didn't feel I could hang up the phone and leave potentially a distressed woman and not know what might have happened, that she might be on her own, she might have a children with her, they hear some of it should my children hear some of it, as well as digital exclusion reasons. So the photographs became more important. So I was hoping to collaborate and I tried to collaborate, but without putting a heavy burden of labor on my participants, so and different people will take different approaches to this. But for me, I can't pay asylum seekers, I didn't have the budget to pay people anyway. And I didn't want to be asking a lot of time and labor from women. I felt that would feel unfair. But neither did I want to be extractive so is that that balancing ground that I constantly and again, constantly considering my positionality, and how best to do that, to be collaborative to continue that contact and check ins get their approval through the photo editing worked, or I created visual digital stories as a little mini visual story at the top there. Where they were created of individual narratives and stories, they were pre approved, again by the individual participant, so done with them. That with me taking the burden of labor. So I had the privilege of time and funding to be able to do this work doesn't always feel like it as a PhD student that you've got time or or money. Not everybody has funding, of course. But I did. Whatever we think of the levelers of stipends. I could empathize with the women and as a mother, but I had an experience of seeking sanctuary in Wales or being coming from refugee background. I was trusted, I am trusted, as a mother of respected as a researcher. But is it always that way round. And I made mistakes, because I don't share experiences. And that privilege, comes with the thoughts of power imbalances. And I did have one to one interviewing where the power balance felt very wrong. I was there to get information to use that explore extractive type phrase. But really, this was a woman who was only speaking to me because she was desperate, desperate, being the right word for information. So I help provide that information and have not included, cut the interview short, and if not included that in my work. And again, continuing to consider my positionality why the woman at a speed agreed to speak with me what she hoped to get from me from what she knew of me and who I was and why I was there. And I skim this a little bit, just to say I had some, some really wonderful feedback. There are next several difficulties, but someone telling me I'm so glad you're doing this, some of them even reflecting me in their creative methods. So on this image here on the right, I'm represented by the lines of jewels at the bottom. And she's represented her family through the rest of the jewelry. So quite touched by that and we're still in touch. Women saying I'm inspiring to them, can't say I necessarily would agree. But equally, I felt that the other way around. I felt that some of the women were really inspiring to me. Some of the women agreed to talk with me wanting to learn more about what's all involved, but that felt more   39:27 equal than the or more better balanced for one of a better term actually, than the situation I described before. And I was definitely able to gain access to spaces as I said before, because of who I am, not just because I'm a researcher and and I was able to build a rapport and friendships in ways that a man maybe even a white woman might not have been able to And yes, I did make friendships. And that's something I can can discuss later. That's something that people do consider the boundaries of. But these aren't things are not positive, unless I was an ethically responsible, which means continuing to reflect on my positionality. So should I be doing this this research? No, I'm not if I don't have that asylum seeking refugee background, am I the right person to be doing this? And how can I use the privileges that I do have? And the experiences that that, that I have both of of that relative privilege, but also of the discrimination and difficulties that I have faced as a, as a black Miss mixed race, woman Mother, how can I use those to support to amplify and to liberate, not to consider that I'm saving or that I'm speaking for, or that I'm discovering? Considering that presentation, and representation matter? And they really do, but when I'm not representative in an always on again, is that possible? Of the group that I'm researching with? How do I achieve that? And I've done that through some of my more visual and collaborative weights, the ethics of anonymization. And I talked about more about this next week, but particularly with photographs of people, and whether anonymizing is disempowering. And allowing people to real names to be used is liberating. And whether there are times as a researcher whether you need to decide for your participants or is that infantilizing. No straightforward answers. And in case anyone's wondering, I kept anonymized everything anonymized for various reasons. And this is a doctoral event. So in within the academy even, but also elsewhere, that racism isn't only about phenotypes. It's relevant for my positionality. It was relevant for my permissive, epistemological framework, relevant for my participants, they might be white, as it were, visibly, but maybe still racialized, based on their accent, their first language, their immigration status in particular. And this was deeply relevant, as I said, for my approach.   43:04 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

This series of podcast episodes will focus on Decolonising Research, and feature talks from the Decolonising Research Festival held at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. The sixth epsiode of the series will feature Amy Shakespeare and Deborah Ashfield from the University of Exeter and their talk 'Refusing extraction embracing loss: Towards an anticolonial politics of absence.'   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcription   00:09 Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development, and everything in between.   00:32 So, hi, everyone. I'm Amy Shakespeare, and this is my colleague, Deborah Ashfield. And we're going to be presenting together today, we're both first year PhD students at the University of Exeter's Penryn campus. And we wanted to do something for the decolonizing Research Festival. And we're originally kind of thinking of doing separate presentations or workshops. But then we realized sort of how much overlap there actually is between our seemingly different research interests. So I'm based in the history department, and Deborah is based in the English department. So I just kind of wanted to caveat today's presentation by saying that it's very much a work in progress. It's very kind of experimental and drawing the two things together and seeing how they sort of work in dialogue with each other. And so we're just trialing some ideas here today. And we're really grateful that you're kind of here to join us for that. And we'd very much welcome any feedback that you have, or any sort of thoughts that it sparks for yourselves. And we're hoping to leave some time to open up the discussion at the end of the session for us all to think about extraction, and last and absence within our own work. And they'll also be time for questions, but do feel free as we're going through to pop questions in the chat. And then maybe we can kind of have more of a unmute and, and free for all at the end. So   02:16 yeah, so we're going to be talking a little bit over kind of force of the next half an hour, 45 minutes, between jumping between ourselves and then opening out to everyone else to join in, we're going to start off talking about kind of some of the differences between terms like decolonizing, and decolonial. What kind of nuances and politics and differences kind of in between, between those two terms are. Then I'm going to move into talking a little bit about extraction and the refusal extraction. So I'm going to be talking a bit about extractive research practices and how these relate to extractive colonialism, colonialism. And then we're going to be thinking a bit about connections between anti extractivism and anti colonialism and research. Then Amy's gonna be chatting a bit about the role of loss in relation to her research, which looks at repatriation, from UK museums to indigenous communities, and so called Canada. And then she's going to be thing, she's going to be talking a bit about the kind of the potential absence and what the absence is left by spaces might mean and what kind of possibilities that might lie there. Particularly in terms of anticolonial practice and spaces.   03:51 Yeah, so that's kind of, as Deb said, an overview. We wanted to start by just asking whether you sort of can use a reaction or the hands up function. Do you consider your work to be decolonial or decolonizing? So yeah, just do either a thumbs up reaction if you do or the hands up. Okay, so got a couple. Great, so a few people do. Brilliant. And now we wanted to ask, do you consider your work to be anti colonial? And the same thing again? One, two, okay. So fairly even split between decolonial anti colonial, which is really interesting. So, you may be familiar with this article from Turkey. And young decolonization is not a metaphor. But we really wanted to sort of introduce a few key quotes from the article to start today's session off. Both Deborah and I use the term anticolonial, rather than decolonial. And tackling Yanga and a few others have been key to us both separately, I should say, but both coming to that conclusion. And it might seem like semantics, but actually, there's really kind of powerful meaning behind the term decolonization and so as this quote says, decolonization brings about the repatriation of indigenous land and life, it is not a metaphor for other things we want to do to improve our societies and schools. So we can see here that that message is very much about land back and life back. And so thinking about how does can research be decolonial? Or is there another word like anticolonial, that might fill that space better?   06:12 And so yeah, talk to me and go on to talk about this trend noticed, which we'll kind of all be familiar with. And they say when one trend that we've noticed with growing apprehension is the ease with which the language of decolonization has been superficially adopted into education and other social sciences, supplanting prior ways of talking about social justice, critical methodologies, or approaches, which approaches which dissenter, dissenter settler perspectives. And this is, it's like a really kind of key message that runs through their their art article is that decolonization isn't a synonym for diversification or for inclusion, or for kind of the many, like, really, like really important kind of like social justice oriented, anti racist, kind of work, and critical methods. And pedagogies that happened in university spaces. And so they kind of, yeah, they just are, they push on this this term, decolonial and decolonizing, and the ways that it's been adopted into the university, and it's used in university spaces, in kind of really interesting ways that yeah, kind of unsettle some of the ways that kind of, we're trained to think about what decolonize what decolonization is, and means.   07:41 Yeah, and then this final quote, that we've picked out, kind of alludes to what Debs was just talking about, in terms of, even if the work that we're doing is out, you know, outrightly clearly anti racist, even if it's for social justice, or critical of what's gone before, this harm that the term can do in terms of, you know, killing the possibility of decolonization, really centering whiteness, thinking about that sort of white guilt, and that sort of idea of, of the Savior as well. I think that, that adoption of the term decolonization plays into all of those things, and can be quite problematic. So we just really wanted to start with that, as I say, to kind of outline why we'll be talking in terms of anti colonial you know, it's not without its own critiques, which I think Deborah's gonna go on to talk about, but just really outlining that difference, and, and why we're making it. So yeah, I'm gonna hand it over to Deborah now to talk about extraction and extractivism.   08:57 Hi, yeah, so um, I just kind of as a kind of as a little bit of preamble pre blurb, I work kind of between contemporary poetry studies, soundscape studies, critical technology studies bioacoustics, kind of broadly under the Environmental Humanities, umbrella. And I, but today, I'm going to be talking mainly about reading and reading methods more generally. And the place of practicing refusal and retooling in relation to extractive research logics and extractive reading practices. I yeah, I work on poetry mainly. So reading and close reading in particular is fairly central in terms of methods that I use. So what I'm going to be talking about in the next kind of 15 minutes or so it's kind of an experimental live bibliography, or sort of process of walking back through and with some of the texts, thinkers, tools, complications and tensions that are continually structuring and dissolving the structure of my practice. Yeah, so I work on extractivism. And particularly in my research, I think a lot about the ways in which looking out for and paying attention to the tendencies towards extractivism. And extractive logics in research methods and practices can give us information about where the worn habits of colonialism, conquest etcetera, reside and take root in our disciplinary and interdisciplinary methods and practices. So, what do we mean when we talk about extractivism? In these terms? Is it different from extraction? How does it manifest in the modern university in teaching and research? What does it mean to be anti extractive and how does all of this relate to colonialism, colonialism and the practice of carrying out anti colonial research or using anti colonial methodologies and you can get to the next slide. Thank you. So, let's begin with some definitions. Etymologically the verb to extract comes from the Latin extra hearing to draw out the term moved into popular circulation in the late 16th, early 17th centuries, and kind of quickly came to signify the often violent process of getting out the contents of anything by force, taking out anything embedded or firmly fixed, also refers to the process of taking from something of which the thing taken was a part. In early you said and still now it revert it refers to various processes of kind of obtaining constituent elements, juicers, etc, from a thing or substance by suction pressure, distillation, or any chemical or mechanical operation, both personal and material agents. So the employment of these various forms of force as a means for assuming access to so called resources, is an ongoing Pologne act, enactment of colonial and capitalist logics that rely upon self maximization and profit as justification for harm. However, I argue, in my work alongside many others, that the problem of extraction and extractivism doesn't necessarily begin and end with whether or not harm and damage are immediately visible, or perceptible as a result of the process of extraction. My project begins when the position and ethic of obligation and reciprocity must replace an extractive model an extractive knowledge economy, in order for, in order to produce knowledge in ways that stand up outside the logics that govern the colonial academic industrial complex. So I'm, I'm entangled with, obviously, we all are, and working within the parameters of this well established, dominant Western New colonial system of knowledge production. And it's therefore inevitable in my project that I'm inadvertently reproducing some of the assumptions and violence is that it's awesome. But I'm also hoping to kind of diagnose and interrupt and in a third University as possible, which is an amazing text, by the way, thoroughly recommend it. The person puts this split obligation really well in his discussions of the ways in which the first, second and third universities, of which the dynamic between the three he explains really well, and I recommend going and reading it.   13:34 Yeah, he explains this split obligation between the three universities which are all coexisting in a kind of constantly malfunctioning machine or assemblage of knowledge and practices. So he says, regardless of its kind of colonial structure, because school or the university is an assemblage of machines, and not a monolithic institution, its machinery is always being subverted towards decolonizing purposes. The bits of machinery that make up the decolonizing University are driven by decolonial desires with decolonizing dreamers who are subversively part of the machinery and part machine themselves. So I'm talking about in terms of the split obligations. These subversive beings wreak scavenge, retool and reassemble the colonizing university into decolonizing contractions. They're cyborgs with a decolonizing desire, you might choose to be one of them. In the third University, which is also inside of the first and second universities. The tools and methods owned by the first university are susceptible to being co opted to anti colonial abolitionist post disciplinary, creative and laboratory and due to my projects focus on taking and interrogating the extractive and colonial origins, uses and entanglements of various tools. methods between the sciences and the humanities. I work kind of in soundscape study. So I think a lot about hydrophones underwater microphones in relation to kind of close reading methods in the humanities. Le pathosans text here provides powerfully grounding ways in which to envisage how this kind of CO option of tools might be enacted as participation in an ongoing collaborative interdisciplinary transnational and trans historical practice of refusing the extractive logics of the first and second universities. Often though, these logics of extractivism and automatic access might not be immediately or obviously identifiable as such. Often they're veiled by suggestions of environmental goods, benevolence, in essence, care. But care in itself can be violent care can be a violation. Our work as Catherine McKittrick puts it so brilliantly can you go to the next sliding? Thank you. Work as Catherine McKenna, McKittrick puts it so brilliantly in data science and other stories to another key kind of methodological texts for my project is to notice this logic, your recursive logic that depicts our presently Ecocide or in genocide or wild as normal and unalterable and breach it. dislodging by biocentric system of knowledge and showing that the natural sciences the humanities and the social sciences are when thought together generative sites of inquiry. One way in which McKittrick suggests doing this noticings breaching of colonial logics is through attention to the politics of citation are our bibliographies extractive did they reproduce the same colonial logics that structure so much of our learning and teaching in the modern Western University. McKittrick calls out how sometimes citation practices do not take the time to feel and recognize liberation. Sometimes referencing signals illusion rather than study. This image of a work cited page containing references to books chapters, articles have been skim read. For neat confirming quotations. Best was kind of all too familiar when I first came across it. Reading McKittrick, I was reminded of and convicted by the ways in which the academy continues to teach and reward deeply colonial acts of extractivism and reading and the ways in which these practices of extractive reading have real material effects.   18:00 are in the waiting room and I've been steadily picked?   18:03 Go back to the one before. Yeah, perfect. So McKittrick offers an alternative, then a sort of next one. Sorry. McKittrick offers an alternative. She says What if the practice of referencing sourcing and crediting is always bursting with intellectual life and takes us outside ourselves? What if we read outside ourselves not for ourselves but to actively or know ourselves? to unhinge enough to come to know each other intellectually, inside and outside the academy Academy, as collaborators have generous and of collective and generous and capacious stories. So I hope that by refusing the logics of unit directionality in reading, automatic access, consumption, possession, and self maximization that characterize these colonial macho modes of knowledge production, but we're also well acquainted with, we remain accountable to and engage in other kinds of readerly possibilities and intertextual relationships. These relationships Well, I hope, expand already do extend beyond the confines of extractive so called objective academic reading and research economies and towards practices of accountability, specificity, reciprocity, caution and exchange. These four melodics of extractivism and objectivity are characteristic of what Max libera on in their book pollution is colonialism and other texts which has been foundational to establishing my methodological and theoretical frameworks as well as my citation on politics has called Resource relations. We can move on to the next one. That's okay. Thank you. Part of how LeBron theorizes really resource relations doesn't necessarily travel Allow from the island of Newfoundland on the ancestral traditional homelands of the Baytech unseeded ancestral traditional lands of the Baytech in so called Canada, to the UK, where I am liberal unexplained resource relations, as referring to the morality of maximum use of resources, dispossession and property as a way to control both time and space to secure settler and colonial futures. Because the province of Newfoundland and Labrador exists in the broader context of a settler state and Canada, its relationship to colonialism is different to here in the UK at the former heart of empire, though the two places are closely entangled with each other. The ways in which colonialism functions and persist in these spaces is different and bears different consequences. However, the concept of resource relations itself is still extremely useful and instructive here. And particularly for talking about how to read in a different kind of relation that isn't consumptive, violent or extractive. This is especially important when engaging with the work of those whose ideas and knowledge have historically been othered left out CO opted, stolen, or overwritten in time in favor of maintaining the colonial Imperial, gendered and racialized status quo in the academy. Elsewhere Libran discusses continues discussions of resource relations and extractive knowledge economies in specific terms relating to reading practices in academic work and writing. The social into an intellectual stakes surrounding these kinds of obligations they explain are high, they particularly talk about me guess next slide, okay. They particularly talk about the ways in which the norms of value and valuation that underlie how we are taught to read and write are also the ones that force us out of academic pipeline pipelines and into trauma. In addition to the social stakes, there are intellectual stakes. The problem with one way extractive transmission of knowledge is that the way knowledge is transmitted, acutely affects the type of knowledge transmitted, extractive reading can only result in one kind of knowledge transmission acquisition, working simultaneously inside of and and against a system that profits from extractive reading and citation of economies the academy and alternative reading and citation practice that notices and offers clues. On potential methods for working towards an economy of reciprocity is vital. These practices include proper relational debt, generous, citation, annotation, deep engagement, time span, and more.   23:01 Work working within this concept of reading within an ethic of reciprocity, rather than in an economy of extractivism. The reader is required to acknowledge that being in relation with and to a text and its authors, crucially outside of kind of one's own head. These practices of embracing the the refusal of extractive research methods and specifically extractive reading relations have slowed me down considerably in the best ways, and forced me to reckon with the usual pushes towards long, tight, comprehensive bibliographies. Illuminating the colonial capitalist and self maximizing performativity, they'll enter these urges when these bibliographies are constructed on the basis of kind of skim reading, and extractive reading. Embracing this refusal has caused me to pause and refrain when the instinct cuts in to add a reference for a text that I'm not yet well enough acquainted with. This is a practice of refusal in progress in process and constantly under review.   24:16 isn't me? Yes. Yeah. So kind of going on. From Deborah, my work, as I said, at the beginning might seem quite different. But hopefully, as we go through, it'll become clearer why we've linked them. So what happens when we do refuse extraction led me to thinking about what happens when we can't preserve everything in museums, the tendency is, you know, extract, collect, preserve, and even today with kind of contemporary collecting that museums are pushed to do, that is what they will do. You know, for example, in the Black Lives Matters, protests happen And they went out, they took the placards, put them in their collection, what is the next move. So we might not be able to extract because we're using anti colonial methodologies or for sustainability reasons or accepting that consent has not been given or maybe taken away. And this is kind of where our research starts to overlap. So I look at the anti colonial spaces left by the return of cultural items, from youth head museums to indigenous communities a couple of decades ago, and even up until relatively recently, one of the repeated arguments against repatriation was that it might lead it would lead to a so called slippery slope, and UK museums would empty. Now that might tell you how much isn't UK museums that shouldn't be. But it's also plainly not true, both because not everything in museums as stolen. And because communities often don't want or can't accommodate having everything back that has been stolen. And I'm still grappling with the word loss as it has such negative connotations. In most instances, museum teams today are pleased when a repatriation occurs, meaning that an item can be back with its rightful community. But I'm finding that there's still this element of saying goodbye of curators letting go of something that they believe it's their duty to care for, of a loss. And so I'm looking at different ways museums prepare for this loss and how some choose to embrace it. So I'm focusing on these spaces both metaphorical and physical, that would be left by items that had been returned, and what the potential for those spaces are. Some curators are keen on ethically purchasing contemporary art from the community that they have returned items to, however, you can then end up with more extraction, or with contemporary pieces from communities still being poorly interpreted, or like the vast majority of items being hidden inside storage facilities in perpetuity. And museums have continually collected objects to tell more stories about people and events and can now be described as agencies for managing profusion. However, there are often gaps in collections that being museums supposedly do not have the objects to tell the stories that they want to, or that they can avoid telling truthful stories of colonialism. And this can mean that themes or issues are missed out of exhibitions. So essentially, by putting artifacts at the center of exhibition, it limits the issues available for discussion. Equally, objects that the museums know little about tend to remain neglected. And many museums try to rearrange objects around absence or collect or create new objects to fill gaps. So to Sylvie talks about how there is this persistent museological assumption that the meaning if a sense of an artifact can best be sustained by securing its physical permanence, and this idea of conservation and securing permanence, as I've said, is extraction in and of itself, is a colonial idea that harks back to the formation of many museums in the Victorian era, the false idea and justification that indigenous people were dying out, and therefore their items needed to be preserved for future generations. Coupled with this, continuing to collect fuels a fundamental problem with museum practice and conservation, which is the fact that museums have become completely unsustainable, due to their storage facilities bursting full of collections that never see the light of day. But as the Silvie writes, on the flip side of this, museums often feel that loss equals erasure, to syllabi concludes that the act of saving something means we become implicated in its biography, once you have this intrinsic link to lose that item would be to lose our identities to. So I believe that the fear around repatriation is the idea of losing our colonial identities, losing that Imperial nostalgia, and there's anxiety associated with that surrender.   29:18 Many museums like universities are seeking to decolonize but as Deborah has just talked about, what about when this permanence comes at a cost of extraction, when this item was never meant to be permanent, never meant to be preserved? Or when our preservation of something suffocates or kills a living being? What does this mean for anticolonial practice? And Harrison someone's drilling? Harrison wrote that there is an acceptance that new ways of carrying collecting, curating and communicating the values of heritage must be conceived to accept the inevitability of change, that everything cannot be extracted, saved and preserved and to move away From traditional conservation, I'm just going to close my window to see if that helps.   30:11 So I'm really interested in this provocation made last month that a brilliant event, which I believe was recorded and is or will be available online. This was from zooming qu who asked, what is the non colonial word for conservation. And I've changed that as to what is the anti colonial word for conservation. Seeming was talking about scientific and ecological conservation being a means to continue Imperial resource extraction. But I think that you can make an argument that heritage conservation, and indeed resource rate sorry, and indeed, research is also a means to continue Imperial resource extraction. And this idea of ethically conducting contemporary art to fill the space of repatriated items feeds into that. So rather than looking at ways to fill these spaces with more items, I follow the absence, I look at the spaces left by or awaiting the return of cultural items. And I argue that within this absence, anti colonial practice can be found. The problematic nature of the display of objects is becoming clearer as museums seek to decolonize. But absence has usually been viewed as negative and museums faces. The idea that and rightly so if an if a community were absent from an archive they weren't represented. For instance, Tally talks about the act of absence thing, where museums choose not to display or not to act session objects into their collection, showing how the museum instead of documenting heritage actually produces its own heritage. And this has linked to the idea of Imperial nostalgia, where museums are places where colonialism is historicized, and glorified. On top of this, you often find that in the interpretation of indigenous items, still today, those communities are talked about in the past tense. So where there is a presence of objects, there is still an absent thing of the communities and absence that historicize is them, and makes them seem like they did die out. The Silvia however, argues that absence can facilitate the Persistence of Memory and significance. spaces created by communities getting their items back can provide such an absence. And I argue that museums should embrace these new absences created by repatriation so that anti colonial stories can be told, without the need to retain or display cultural items that perpetuate colonial violence and are often poorly interpreted. So this quote from Neil Curtis is about a temporary exhibition he curated in 2003, called going home museums and repatriation. And this was off the back of the Moorish shell museum where he was the curator, returning a sacred headdress to the horned society of the guy nation. The exhibition featured various sections that showed the story of the head dress, handover ceremony, repatriation debates elsewhere in the UK, and a discussion board that invited visitors to have their say, and Curtis reflected how comments by visitors were almost entirely favorable, such as all of humanity is connected to each other. And so glad to see this as a discussion, I knew very little about procedures and cases of repatriation. A more recent example of exhibiting absence is at the Pitt rivers Museum. They decided to move remove all human remains from display, including the sensor from South America, which the museum was famous for. Now, as you can see, in this image, they have purposely kept the case empty, which stands out amongst the profusion of material in the museum, and have used space to add the word racism into their interpretation, talk about how the previous curation was problematic. The decision to remove human remains from view and the repatriation processes that will now take place. So these examples indicate the anti colonial power of absence. And further evidence of this potential can be seen in a slightly different way, and the aftermath of the removal of colonial statues throughout the UK in the US in 2020, and 2021. Following the Black Lives Matter protests. These removals was different to repatriation and led by the public have already shown how the removal of objects that perpetuate for violence create opportunities for more powerful messaging. For example, this image shows a group of artists who have created the people's platform, which uses augmented reality to show alternative suggestions created by the public for what could take the place of Colston statue in Bristol. They've also generated a lot of public attention and debate on the difficult side objects that their removal highlighted. This shows what opportunity for growth change and something new the return of cultural items might have and what the future of museums could look like.   35:13 So embracing loss and exhibiting absence could dismantle and transform museum practice decentering the object would enable and move beyond the colonial gaze, and center the anti racist anti colonial stance in the post Museum. These spaces may be filled by interpretation written by the indigenous community themselves, becoming a space for truth telling and healing. These spaces will be people centered rather than object centered. And this embracing of loss would enable museums to start to move away from their colonial roots and disrupt Imperial nostalgia. So although I've been talking about museums and repatriation, I think that the theories and ideas behind my work are applicable to research in general, particularly within settings such as UK universities. If we cannot gain consent to extract then we cannot analyze, interpret or preserve this knowledge. And perhaps that is one of the most anti colonial approaches we can take as researchers, where we cannot extract and we embrace loss. That's where really exciting new work can happen. Innovation, should we create something new? Should we try to describe loss? Should we change topic or approach? And how can communities themselves utilize and tell their own truths in these spaces?   36:32 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between  

This series of podcast episodes will focus on Decolonising Research, and feature talks from the Decolonising Research Festival held at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. The fifth epsiode of the series will feature Pankhuri Singh from the University of Exeter and her talk 'Culture across borders'.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcription 00:09 Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development, and everything in between.   00:32 And today I'll be talking about cultural cross borders. Hello, everyone. My name is Pankaj Singh. I'm a second year PhD student in the Department of English and film studies. Now, what exactly is decolonization? decolonization is the process in which a country that was formerly a colony that was colonized by imperialism or by a par, they they go away and they make that country independent and they lose the stop controlling that country and that country becomes independent internal, this is the process of decolonization. Now, India became independent from the British Empire on the 15th of August 1947. Do it became a republic, it decided to be a part of the Commonwealth of Nations. Hence, it did not severe away all the ties from the British Empire by being part of the Commonwealth nations it accepted the honorary monarchy being being a part of the Indian constitution and in I'm sorry, not the Indian constitution, but of the Indian public in in, in the general terms, not talking a little bit about what the history of India and the UK share is, trade was established between two ringland and Mughal India in the 1600s. When elicited when Elizabeth to one granted the newly formed in East India Company Royal Charter by sending precious gifts to the Mughal court, Emperor of Akbar the trend following the Indian rebellion of 1857. When Indian sepoys rebelled against the British officers, the East India Company was dissolved. The assets of the British East India Company was so huge that the British government decided to step in, and after a series of military encounters established British dominion over India. Later, the English sought to consolidate their political control by taking responsibility to improve the lot of the masses by imparting modern Western education. They took over on themselves which is dubbed as the White Man's Burden, they took over that responsibility of making the Indian masses of socially religiously, morally economically, better human beings. A part of this being Lord Macaulay is minute on Indian education, which came out in the 18 clitic farm. He wanted to establish a class of persons Indian and blood and color, but English and taste, opinion, morals and intellect. According to him, these people would act as intermediaries between the British rulers and the masses that they were to. Indians, however, welcome this decision with open arms. They had their own perceived notions that this charter this minute would help them it was not just the freedom fighters, but also the social reformers who saw the benefits of this plan and how it would work in their own favor. reformers like Raja Ram and Ravi and others crap the opportunity to do away with the dogmatic and Orthodox religious rights, when they realized that is new scientific approach would be important to the Indian education and they would realize that these religions rights were dogmatic and not really something that should be followed. Similarly, the freedom fighters to grab this opportunity and part of collaborating with each other, from different parts of the country to to   04:39 to move forward the nationalist independence movement. Now why was that? It was because India was and still continues to be multilingual. It has 22 languages recognized in the HTML of the Indian constitution, and when Broadmoor collies minute came into being ink, then English became the lingua franca and freedom writers from across regions could actually connect and plans that would work for the very downfall of the British Empire that that brought home that had brought this English language into the country. While all of this was going on in the political front, in the literary front, Shakespeare as a playwright began to gain popularity he's his stories of creed, part, revenge and jealousy, the times and the new no borders. Even after independence, Indians continued to like his filmmakers took an opportunity to make films that were based on Shakespeare's plots. And they thought that his plots were timeless and they could actually adapt to them to the Indian culture. This brings me to my research topic, which is how paraglide trans culturally adapted to Elizabeth and drama to the Indian setting. Today, I will be talking about how the Elizabethan drama written by William Shakespeare in 16 104 that is Othello gets adapted into Ankara, which was a film that released in the year 2006. Cannot be bounded by geographical borders, the emotions of discontentment, jealousy, insecurity, are felt by all residing in any part of the world. Ha replied to spank on the Shakespearean play, and takes pride in being associated with the writer who wrote for the teaching, which ruled his country for centuries. The filmmaker however, does not blindly transform the Elizabethton play of Shakespeare into a film. Rather he adds the elements of Indian Ness in it, which makes the adaptation a unique process he adds in Hindu mythic elements and other features that are exclusive to India. The chief point of the play will tell you is that Otello belongs to a different race than Desdemona, the counterpart the female counterpart. This gets trans culturally adapted in the Indian setting, but how to judge many banks on the emotion of jealousy and insecurity. He bases his film on the very inhibition, which also happens to be a very famous Hindi dialogue in the Bollywood cinema, that a girl and a boy can never be just friends. This inhibition was the root cause for Omkara jealousy and the belief that dolly Desdemona might have cheated on him with case that is Casio. While in the play, Iago makes Roger equal believe that Desdemona loves Casio, he says that they have the same appearance and that will tell you is stop that bringing in the disparity of talent between the levels. In the film this gets adapted when dolly and que su are seeing together and they seem compatible, because they share the same educational background. The the, the issue of caste, the issue of column, never find the mention it is because they will educate together that they become compatible, thereby making Ankara jealous and insecure, that he is approved, and therefore, he is not as in par with the case who as he would have been had he been Western or modern educated. The second method of adapting the play is when Bhardwaj reimagined the character of into the Indian counterpart for Amelia, making her vengeful at Carly, who kills her husband Lambert yaki, the Iago figure for the misdeeds he had done. Thus, Bhardwaj birdwatcher takes a significant departure from the text, because while in the play immediate dies at the hands of Thiago and that is how we see that that's how Amelia is not really able to stand up for Desdemona. Into however, becomes the avenging mother who dresses the wrongs done to her.   09:41 Not only her but also broadly, who she thinks to be her younger sister, or her child. The name into means moon and according to the Hindu mythology, the moon protects the inhabitants of the earth in in the night from the evil forces that look in the dark similarly, in the two dresses the drums metadata and Dolly balandra and the scenes take place in the light rail into as a protector of the good forces fight against the evil forces, which here are represented in Lanre and defeats him. You even though Indu is not the female protagonist here, her position in the development of the plot is of significant value. In the film, Iago is called Long long meaning lane, which attributes to another mythological figure, Shang. Shang is a planet that, according to the Hindu mythology, is a slow moving planet that revolves around the sun, and is associated with black collar and walks with a limp. This mythical trigger is associated with bad luck. And that's the drawing influence of lambda in Ankara. Light can be equated to the beginning of Ankara has done for since Shani said to be the God of karma or one's actions, it can be concluded that Ankara is himself involved in his own downfall. As he is unable to see the truth and false through the deceitful plans of flora. Shani is also associated with black color as a tall talked about he walks he can be seen in the film, in the form of long long walks in with a limb in the dark alleys. He is always shot in dim light, and he adds to the mystery which brings about a kind of mystical persona that holds some secrets within his heart, and that alludes to the dark intentions that he has. My argument is that while Iago becomes the green eyed monster in Othello, longer becomes the demonic figure associated with evil and dark horses, and black is the color associated with him. pilotage also seems to have borrowed from Rahman, when adapting Otello to the Indian context, as the basic fact remains that both in the epic so in the plane or in the film, where the main character are misled to distress the loyalty of their respective rights, just as in Roman law drum believes the words of a washer man and things got a Sita was not loyal to him. So does in the film, Ankara believe two words a camera and considers the dolly is having an illicit affair with case behind his back. The words of Brandon Turner who is destined Mona's father pelo. Look, look at have more if thou have eyes to see, she has deceived her father and me she did get an Indian adaptation to the word three archery three, three archery three is a term that is mentioned in MGS. Murthy, which is a religious, religious Hindu text. It refers to the mysterious character of women, which is translated or real translation stands as nobody knows about the character or tendency of a woman.   13:21 It is thus, a critical evaluation of how Shakespeare's plays were translocated and adapted into the Indian setting, along with aiming, rethinking and repositioning Shakespeare in 21st century intends cinematic setting, acting as a cultural bridge, joining the culture of two different countries to get this fighting with the past and thinking that things were different, and they would have been better if they were different. It is better if we see a future that knows no boundaries, and that where where we share and serving and a future where we share the same legacy and making a new history there, all of our cultures collaborate. My larger argument does is if we as New Age, researchers are able to strike a balance between the methods and means by which the old Pinocchio texts are read and analyzed. And that connection is established between the colonizing power not seeing it as a curse, but rather seen is at seeing it as a means of new forms of connection, a call a new area of decolonizing research will develop it will see literature as belonging to all it does not restrict it by borders or by geopolitics, or where the nations or the nationality of the author lies, but rather assimilating and making literature and music accessible to all.   15:03 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

This series of podcast episodes will focus on Decolonising Research, and feature talks from the Decolonising Research Festival held at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. The fourth epsiode of the series will feature Professor Raewyn Connell from the University of Syndey and her talk 'Decolonising the work of research'. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcription 00:09 Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development, and everything in between. Hello, and welcome to the fourth in our series on decolonizing research. In this episode we hear from Professor Raewyn Connell from the University of Sydney on decolonizing, the work of research   00:44 greetings from Sydney in Australia, I'm Raven, Carnell, and I'm speaking to you on the subject of decolonizing, the work of research, and the significance of the word work will come through. I'm pleased to send you best wishes for this very interesting and imaginative idea of a festival of decolonization in, in, in relation to research. Which event of a kind, I haven't come across the form. I'm interested, of course, because I am a researcher, I've been working for going on around 50 years, as a researcher still trying to learn about it. And there is always much to learn. But I do have some experience then. And that tells me that research is above all else, as a practical matter, matter of things you actually do forms of labor, and, and communication. And that's basically the approach that I want to take in in discussing decolonization. And I wanted to start with a couple of images of the country that I'm speaking from, which illustrates something about knowledge and coloniality. So at this point, I will attempt the great technological feat of sharing my screen choosing my PowerPoint presentation, go you share. And then attempting even to go full screen. So is that successful? Is that come through? Yes, yeah. Excellent. Excellent. Okay, we're underway then. Let me show you a couple of pictures of Australia, not the tourist version. But one from Australian history Australia is a settler colonial country. Its modern society has taken a form shaped by that 230 years of colonization, emigration, and forcible occupation of the land that had previously been occupied by indigenous people who have been here for according to the archaeologists, something like 70,000 years, this is one of the oldest, continuously existing cultures in the world, if not the oldest. But what I'm showing you here is a picture from the late 19th century. A picture drawn by one of the colonizers and published in a local magazine in Melbourne, showing the kind of settlement that moved British occupation out across the land. This is what we in Australia have, for a long time called a station. Perhaps what the Americans understand is backed by a wrench that's in the Western District of Victoria place called Hopkins Hill. And it shows the house that was built by the family to whom this land was granted under colonial rule by the colonial government. And I like this picture because not only does it show how basically European style of art architecture was brought here with perhaps a touch of Indian experience, Imperial experience in it in the wide veranda. But also something about the people who did it because if you look closely   05:15 at the picture, you'll see four people in the middle of the picture standing in front of the house. They are white, they are men, and they're all carrying guns. And somehow that encapsulates a certain relationship to the land. And this has been processed, of taking land that has been characteristic of the whole Imperial story. The second image I want to show you is a modern one, it's contemporary. It's now can I cause? No, why? There we are, that's what I do. This is a painting by a woman of an Aboriginal community indigenous community from the central desert of the continent. In a style, which some of you will recognize, because this is now the most famous art style in Australia known as Dark painting, central desert painting. It's a woman's image, painted by a woman and embodying knowledge, embedding knowledge, which belongs to the women of that particular community. It's called Honey and dreaming. And it's not only an image of the land, the circular parts of the drawing represent water holes and sources of water in order is a very dry landscape. And places where groups of women may gather at a particular time of year. And the U shaped. Symbols in a painting represent people sitting in a sandy place. There's also a representation of water, the lines connecting the water holes show flows of water across the land. And also embedded in the pictures knowledge of when a particular food source. The honey ants, which are the species of ant that gather honey from flowers, and from the plants of the area, are available to be to be harvested by the community. So what you've got here is not just an image, but also a body of knowledge, what we might think of as multidisciplinary knowledge, about geography, about hydrography, about social relations as to who's entitled to have this knowledge and also about biology. And that is something I'd like you to bear in mind. When I talk about the different patterns of knowledge that we come across in thinking about coloniality and decolonization. I want to move from that immediately to territory that's more familiar to most of us here, and that is the disciplinary knowledge system, more knowledge formation, that is characteristic of universities in all parts of the world that produces the mainstream curriculum that I have taught and some of you have taught and all of you have studied. That's a pattern of knowledge, which has been analyzed in this topologies, sociology, knowledge and so on and so forth. Great deal. It's something that I've written about, in if you'll excuse the advertisement in my most recent book, known as the good university, the first chapter of that book, discusses the research what I call the research based knowledge formation and discusses the nature of the labor that goes into research and the different kinds of labor actually that combine to produce   10:01 research based knowledge. As I say in in that book, there are multiple forms of labor in research, five principal ones that I identify. One is consultation with the archive. That is the body of knowledge already existing in interdisciplinary field. When graduate students write their review of the literature in chapter one of the PhD thesis, that's basically what they're doing. Then there's the labor of encounter, which may be data gathering in the field, it may be experimentation, maybe the study of literary texts in the humanities, or artistic images, all of that, but the encounter of the researcher or researchers with their materials is interesting form of labor. And what they've encountered or as they're encountering, they're also concerned with what it means. And this involves a kind of labor that I call patenting, which involves theorization, it involves data analysis, a statistical data analysis, involves interpretation of texts, and the like. And that also is required in the overall movement of disciplinary knowledge. And then this one I call labor of critique, when you got your materials when you've done your patenting, or you want to know what you've got, it's different from what was there before. So you have to relate it back to the archive, that you knew at the beginning of the process, and revise the archive in the light of the new knowledge that you've generated. That's the labor that I call Critique. And in that sense, critique is the growth point of disciplinary knowledge. And then finally, and important is this all the rest is the broadcasting of the results of the labor. Because what we're talking about is a collective form of knowledge produced by a workforce. And the circulation of the results of research labor, is absolutely essential to the to the process as a whole. Hence, the whole apparatus of journals, online communication conferences, and of course teach to as well as part of the broadcasting. Okay, so you can see that there's a very active labor process got a complex labor process that's involved in the production, if we think of knowledge as as produced, there is a production process and that's it. And this is very much collective labor and collective labor requires a workforce, you know, knowledge doesn't drop from the sky, people have to work and there has to be a group working and organization of that group. And this is quite different knowledge formations differ. So indigenous knowledge of the kind that you saw in Narnia and dreaming painting. The knowledge bears the workforce are traditionally known in Aboriginal communities as the eldest. In Islamic base knowledge such as Islamic jurisprudence and as Islamic theology. The workforce is known as the llama. The Islamic scholars, who are not a priesthood are respected as scholars is knowledge parents. In the knowledge in the cert in the research base knowledge formation, it is researchers, popularly known as scientists, of course, we know to include humanist researchers, social scientists, as well as natural scientists. Now, this workforce has existed for considerable time. And the research base knowledge formation has a history of about 500 years. This is also the lifespan of imperialism of overseas imperialism from Europe. And that is not a coincidence because the two are, in fact very closely related.   14:53 So closely related that I don't think we can think of disciplinary knowledge really, outside On a global economy of knowledge, which it has its roots in the story of imperial expansion, colonial encounters, and what we might call the knowledge dividend of empire. Because it wasn't just the gold or the slaves that float back under the control of the colonizers. There's also knowledge and knowledge in many forms. You know, social scientific knowledge about the societies that are encountered natural science, knowledge, and so on. Here is an example of the knowledge that was brought back from the colonized world. This is an important document in the history of biological science, specifically by geography. It's the practice of oppression, aristocratic, called Alexander fondly. It may be known as name may be known to you, who went as a young man to the colonial areas of North Northern and West Coast, South America, then under Spanish control, and studied the plants, animals, geography, atmosphere, he was one of the pioneers of atmospheric science, as well as biogeography. And this is a kind of map that he had drawn on his return to Europe, which synthesized a huge amount of data about the distribution of particular species of plants. According to height, from sea level up to the Andes Mountains, and across the continent from east to west. And that is a typical kind of process of going to the colonies and bringing back data which is in process to metropole. Actually, Humboldt is not the most famous person who did that. The most famous person, undoubtedly, is Charles Darwin. It's been three years sailing around the colonial and postcolonial world, in the famous royal navy ships, the eagle, and brought back that geological and biological data that was so important in the creation of the theory of evolution, and modern biology. And the data that came back in all these different fields of knowledge, were then accumulated in the institutions of the global north, the Botanic Gardens, the universities, the scientific societies, the journals, what we now think of data bases, data archives, and so on, and theorized and turned into organized knowledge in those kinds of institutions. That's applied to so for those of you who are social scientists, this applies in the social sciences to and here's a fascinating example. So book by some Australian colleagues, about if about a famous 19th century book of anthropology called Camilo, Roy and Kurenai, about kinship systems, which was the big concern of anthropology throughout its history. Now, what our colleagues uncovered when they went back into the archives of this book and the 19th century authors of this work on on Aboriginal kinship is the discovery that they, they if this wasn't, if you like the experimental research or just observation, one, like by going and looking at a tree, you can't do that with a kinship system, you have to ask about it. So in effect, the colonizers, in this case, the authors of the anthropological   19:21 treatise, were engaging with in a sense, employing the elders of a local Aboriginal communities as the knowledge sources, and that's extended the knowledge workforce of the empire of the Imperial knowledge system, to the colonized people, intellectual workers of the colonized people, as well as the colonizers. And in that sense, I would never say that the research based knowledge formation is Western knowledge or Western science? I don't think that's right. It is, if anything, you've got to use a phrase like that it's Imperial science because it embeds an enormous amount of knowledge and know how from the colonized and colonized regions, as well as the knowledge of the colonizers. So the as the the economy of knowledge on the Empire evolved, it developed a very significant division of labor. And this is something I learned, particularly from the work of West African philosopher Pauline tungee. Who's writing if you want to follow these issues up, I very strongly recommend his work to most of them is available in English, also available in French. And he pointed out that fields, the familiar fields of knowledge that we we teach in universities in those fields, the colonized and post colonial world so contemporary Africa, mainly functions as a data mine, which produces raw materials that have been organized some process by theoretical labor, in the global metropole, in the Imperial center. So there's kind of division of labor, built into the structure of the global economy of knowledge, where there's mainly a flow of data from the colonized and post colonial world to the Imperial center, and a flow of theory and methodology the other way, which frame the collection of data. And that is the principal role in the whole global economy of knowledge of academics, searches, knowledge workers in the colonized and postcolonial world. And there's one more thing that has to be said about this economy of knowledge, but it was also based on certain exclusions, it excluded the kind of knowledge that we saw in the honey and creaming painting, that is indigenous knowledge formations of the colonized. The the interdisciplinary, multi, non disciplinary knowledge that you saw in that case, also excluded was alternative universalism, like Chinese organization of men's medical knowledge, like Islamic jurisprudence, and those forms of knowledge that were not so place based this indigenous knowledge usually is also competed, if you like for the interest of the world as a whole, but had roots in a different cultural formation. And then there's the knowledge that I call southern theory, which is basically knowledge produced in the colonial encounter itself, by the colonized, and sometimes by colonizers in Lockhart, in the colonial context. These two have mostly been, if not dramatically, excluded, then strongly marginalized. As you see, when you look at the statistics on the leading journals, in almost every university discipline, the leading journals, the ones that are most heavily cited, the most respected, almost all come from the club or north.   24:06 Okay, that's, that's what we're up against. That's why the decolonization project is truly important. For university teaching, university based research, all university disciplines are affected by this. Which then leads me to the question, how do we do it? How do we contest the inequality inequalities, the geographical exclusions and so forth that has shaped the knowledge that is taught and circulated in in the universe, a global university system? Well, there are many if you like democratic knowledge projects in the world. Let me show you a few. Here's one from Sweden. It's I'm sorry, this book has never been translated into English, which I think is a great pity because it's a lovely book. Its title means dig where you stand. And it's about a workers education self education project, of researching their own jobs researching the history of their own jobs. It was taken up by the unions in Sweden, it became a popular knowledge movement like you know, popular on a photography, bird watching popular astronomy, this became popular social science. Who better to understand the history of their job than the person who has the job now, but that led outwards to the industry and industry, the industry history in the community? It led outwards to the economy as a whole and ultimately it goes to questions about globalization. So fascinating stuff. Let me show you another. This is from Central America. The work of Nassim Martin Barro, a Jesuit psychologist, no longer with us as a result of of repressive violence in in that region, but who tried to create a new pattern new kinds of psychology that was his teaching discipline in this university teacher which would be produced knowledge that was actually useful to the oppressed, indigenous and working classes of the Central America region where he worked. He developed the it came to be called liberation psychology on the model of liberation theology. It never became popular in mainstream academic psychology. But if any of you are psychologists, I can recommend Martine borrow as a fascinating, interesting example of other ways to think about your discipline. Let me show you another. This is another university. This is a picture taken almost exactly 100 years ago, when the great Bengali poet Rabindranath Tagore, many of you will know who had been working to create a relevant form of schools in Bengal decided that a good school system needed a college top, if you like a tertiary education top, he looked at the Colonial universities that have been set up by the colonizers in India, quite relatively large university system was created in colonial India. But he wasn't satisfied with it, because it was controlled by the colonial colonial power. So he created his own This is it. This is the launch ceremony of the college that he called this variety, which he understood as which he intended to be what he called a meeting place of civilization.   28:33 We might call a genuinely multicultural curriculum on a global scale. So in their knowledge from indigenous traditions in India was taught knowledge from Europe, Western academics, unquote from Europe to knowledge from China was taught monitoring Tibet. It was intended to be a meeting place for different knowledge formations, to create a unique curriculum, hopefully not unique. Now, it was a struggle. It ran into financial trouble. But it's hard it's still a day in a somewhat different forms now public university in the Indian university system. But they are very proud of this history and it is a fascinating personal story. So we have from below projects, knowledge projects, we have new workforces and institutions as part of the contestation. And we also have contestation that takes the form of shifting the logic of a given methodology a given set of research methods. Those of you who are interested in decolonizing knowledge very possibly I come across this book and I can strongly recommend it indeed to everyone. Linda to you, I Smith is a teacher in Maori communities in our own New Zealand where who that is those communities in the last generation who have developed a number of higher educational institutions based on Maori cultural principles of teaching and learning, and research. And this book is gives a whole stack of examples of forms of research that treat the indigenous people in New Zealand not as the objects of research but as subjects as participants and designers in the research process, where the intention is to study Maori situations, Maori experience Maori contemporary life. Okay, now, those of you who've read this book will know that it's some of its procedures, relatively familiar in qualitative methods in the social sciences, and some people have drawn the, I think, mistaken conclusion that indigenous knowledge is necessarily qualitative. In contrast to quantitative that is. And this, in fact, is not the case. And his the demonstration, a book called indigenous statistics by Maggie Walter, the Australian Indigenous colleague of mine, sociology, Chris Anderson, from North America from from Canada, indigenous scholar there who've taken up the techniques of quantitative research, as for instance, in censuses and surveys, that have historically been used by the colonial power by the colonial state to study and manage indigenous communities indigenous lives. The book mounts an argument for what the author's called data sovereignty, for changing the power relations that are involved in the collection of data and control over the process of crunching the numbers and turning them to the purposes of the indigenous communities rather than the purposes of colonial government. So there's a range of ways in which logics can be shifted in decolonisation connections can be made. Which brings me back to the question of the workforce, how if we want a workforce in the future, in universities that have capacities for this kind of decolonial work? How do we teach? How do we, for instance, teach them new rules for disciplines?   33:34 Well, I would argue that indigenous knowledge in fact, all forms of decolonize knowledge tend to move across genres and across disciplines. So the simple disciplinary agenda is not adequate. Let me illustrate this from one of my great books list in sociology. A book published a bit over 100 years ago, called native life in South Africa. It sounds like the name of so many anthropological monograph, but it's not. It's a highly politicized book, contesting the seizure of indigenous land in South Africa by the new color independent. Color in colonial state that had been set up following what in Britain is known as the Boer War. That is quite controlled state which was the ancestor then of the apartheid regime. The author of this book, this you see in this picture, Solomon Platt chip was the secretary of the organizations later became the African National Congress. And he determined that a knowledge project was needed to gather the information about how this horrendous legislation which was expropriating indigenous land on a huge scale, how that had come about and what its effects were. Well, black people in South Africa at that time couldn't afford a horse. So he went around the country on a bike interview, the displaced families have been moved off as a result of the seizure of land, in this phase of the colonizing project in South Africa and wrote it up in this book, it's an amazing book, it's not only sort of engaged survey research, and interview based social science, it's also historical analysis of the legislation, cultural critique of the political agenda involved. And so it's amazing book. Multidisciplinary, absolutely, you could not confine it within a single discipline. Okay, do we teach our workforce by teaching them new canons, you know, new famous men's mod, I think, as a systematic business, I don't think we need you know, to displace our Darwin's or Max Weber's or Karl Marx is with with alternative, Darwin's Marxism favors. What we need is a much richer archive for that first stage in the research based knowledge process of consulting the archive. Well, I'm a feminist and feminist researcher, I've been also researching the history of feminism to some extent. And, in the course of that, trying to apply a decolonizing agenda, I've been coming across kind of histories that I didn't know the word in the familiar histories that I have read. And here's a couple of people who might figure well, at least one of them Sorry, I thought I had another before that. In if that history, were told, from a decolonizing perspective, we might see this woman being an OG of idol, development economist, environmental thinker, socialist feminist from India, as perhaps the most significant feminist theorist in our generation, done amazing work. And much of what I've been saying raises issues about land. She wrote the book on gender and land, it's called a field of one's own, it should be in your library, if it's not going by the librarians here until they get it an amazing, truly amazing book and an example of the power of the social knowledge that come out of the post colonial context. Okay, and then we come to the question of how we think all things.   38:36 If we recognize the plurality of knowledge formations, do we then wind up with a kind of epistemology, a theory of knowledge, which is like a mosaic a whole lot of different colored tiles, each completing itself, but not speaking to each other? That's queer, some decolonizing arguments head. And I can respect them. Because that involves respect for all the separate all the different knowledge projects and different communities who might be producing knowledge in distinctive ways. But I also think that the decolonization process or the process now of equalizing resources on a global scale, including the results of knowledge, this needs the practices of connection, as well as separateness, connection and mutual learning. And this is an example of an attempt to make that argument for the importance of South South links and South North links as well as the north south flow of theory and methodology that we're so familiar with. Chilean bobek another story? A colleague of mine makes this argument for global feminism's attempting to break the likes of Northern hegemony in global feminist discourse, and develop an understanding of what it would be to give full recognition to the experience and theories and knowledge of feminist communities in the different parts of the post colonial world. It's a fascinating story, fascinating argument. She talks about the processes what she calls braiding at the borders, rather than an imposition of hegemony, which is an image that suggests the kind of respect that might be lead needed for into the community into regional connections in the future. So if I'm right, that we do need a practice of connection, then we can speak of knowledge on a world scale as the future of knowledge without northern hegemony, saying that, as the goal of my argument, doesn't mean that the North doesn't matter. In this process. I think the decolonization concerns the global north, as as intimately an important is concerns urgent in the Global South. And that's the reason I'm very pleased with what you're doing it excellent. There are resistances to decolonization, which I've certainly frequently run into, in the 20 years, or more than I've been making these kinds of arguments around the traps. Some of them are rooted in in racism, some of them are rooted some of the objections that is, and resistances originate in, in class privilege, but somehow more respect worthy. They may reflect, for instance, some of the resistance to decolonization, that I have encountered reflects a fear on the part of academic workers have losing the skills and knowledge they already have, or being unable to pass them on to the next generation in the way that they expect to. And therefore, I think it's important to, to argue for these processes is an expansion of knowledge, not not a contraction. I think we, as a practical matter, we cannot escape, we cannot just jump out of the global economy of knowledge. It's here. It's links the university system around the world now, this is what we've got, where we are confronting every day,   43:29 on campuses. Some decolonial arguments say that the correct response to this is to D link from it. It's a term from decolonial. Economics actually, but it works for decolonial epistemology as well. I would rather say we should be trying to transform rather than simply separate from the existing global economy of knowledge, partly because setting. Knowledge already embeds so much knowledge from the global south that we don't want to abandon. We need certainly to link existing disciplinary knowledge with new perspectives and local practices in different ways. But I don't think we need a radical abandonment of forms of knowledge are already able to be used. So I see that the decolonizing projects they're not as radically displacing existing knowledge formation, but basically is the cutting edge of projects for the for the democratization of knowledge. That project which we've seen before in local forms, like the degrees then project in Sweden. or liberation psychology in Central America. We can now imagine on a world scale, and that is what the decolonization of, of research now I think has to be about.   45:16 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in

This series of podcast episodes will focus on Decolonising Research, and feature talks from the Decolonising Research Festival held at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. The third epsiode of the series will feature Dr. Foluke Adebisi from the University of Bristol and her talk 'Decolonisation and Research: Finding and unsettling your ‘why'.'   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcription   00:09 Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development, and everything in between.   00:32 Hello, and welcome to the third in our series on decolonizing research. For this episode, we hear from Dr. Fluka Adebisi from the University of Bristol in her keynote, decolonization and research finding and unsettling your why.   00:47 So I've been asked to give this keynote which I have titled very, very roughly, decolonization and research finding an unsettling your why. So the my aim here is to talk about the try and give a rough definition of decolonization, what decolonization is what the colonization is not what does that word than mean for research as a sort of broader concept? And sort of reflect on the ways in which the relationship between sort of decolonization colonization, colonialism coloniality, how that relationship or what it has resulted, to or in in terms of research? And how can we think beyond those sort of that relationship or that that nexus, I'm going to attempt to speak for about 30 to 35 minutes never entirely, works well to maybe 14 at a push, and then leave room for questions. Since I'm completely in charge, you can put questions in the chat. So I'll come back to them. Once I finish, I am going to be talking, you know, my area of expertise is mostly low. So I'm going to be talking to a certain extent at a particular level of abstraction. So I would really be I really look forward to the types of questions you will have pertaining to your own sort of areas of expertise research that you are doing. So before I go into this, I just want to thank Kelly Louise Preece for inviting me and for sort of supporting my ability to come here and speak on decolonization and research. I also want to recognize and acknowledge that the very Nexus that we're talking about the relationship between pooling reality, colonialism, colonial logics, and research has produced certain harmful practices, the certain people who have been the object of unethical research across time and space, and I hope that our conversations today will maybe begin to allow us to do justice to their lives. So I'm, yeah, so I'm going to start by thinking through all sort of talking through this focus here with an anti colonial frame. I do struggle a bit even though I write a lot on decolonization, I do struggle a bit with what exactly we're trying to say. So really thinking through an anti colonial frame, and suggesting that the unfolded logics and practices the ways in which colonization and racialized enslavement have operated, the these very logics were produced from and have produced and an even an unequal world. And as researchers, we must not only we must ask not only that, we researched the truth of that production. So what exactly did   04:03 racialized enslavement and what exactly does continuing or ongoing colonialism entail? But also question how our own logics, our own theories and practices, the things we do as researchers, what part do they continue to play in the production, maintenance and reproduction of this unequal world? And why exactly do we research it's definitely not for the money, considering how much researchers are not paid. So why exactly do we do research? What world do we want to research the knowledge that we produce? What world do we want? It's to produce the world we have or a new, different world. I often describe the world we have a world of scars, smudged fingerprints and broken bones. So is it possible considering the standards of our disciplines the structures in which They exist the world in which it is embedded, is it possible for our research to what we research and how we research to change the world? So when I say thinking through the break, I mean, how do we think through this reproduction? How do we break this and disrupt this cycle. So very briefly want to start with, you know, what is not decolonization. So very often, and I'll come back to this in a few slides, the phrase decolonizing, our research is used, and I tend not to want to use it. And a lot of times when people use these sorts of phrases, phrases, they're talking about sort of making research more inclusive, ensuring that we've got the right citations. So there's a conflation between our use of decolonization as a word, and things like equality, diversity, inclusion representation. And that's not to say that equality, Edi and representation are bad things, but just that they're different things, there's certain registers that decolonization should call to mind, and sometimes they're not the same registers. But having said that, there is an overlap, obviously, between the organization and EDI in the sense that sometimes EDI can be used as a means to achieve decolonization or a measure of success of what we're doing. But essentially, when we're thinking about decolonization, we're thinking about other ways of thinking, being and living in the world. So we should be careful not to conflate one with the other. So having said what decolonization is not I, then I'm sort of forced or have put myself in a sort of tight spot of having to define decolonization. And I find it difficult to define decolonization. But one way to think about it is sort of lots of writers for example, Sylvia winter, and the bulky handle, Nelson Maldonado Torres. And so many of us, they put the inception of colonialism slash coloniality, around the 15th century, so 1492 1444 and what they, you know, that sort of date is the suppose that discovery of the Americas, you know, these voyages of discovery, not just the Americas, but also the voyages to southern cape of Africa, the western coast of Africa. So, it at that particular time, you have this almost meeting this confrontation of two different ways of living. The, this confrontation, therefore, it has been suggested, leads immediately to a repudiation of the world in the world, which which introduces, and that is what we define as decolonization. Or that's what can be defined as decolonization. So to put it differently, we can sort of define decolonization as an immediate continuing and stubborn refusal of the colonial conditions of domination, dispossession, and dehumanization that were introduced in the 14th century. But it's also important to note that these sort of encounters these colonial encounters occurred in different contexts, and were deployed using different means and tact tactics, all of them, you know, political and epistemic, and social and legal, and so many things. Therefore, decolonization or the refusal of these ways of thinking being and doing in the world   08:53 have always, you know, been context dependent. So the concept of decolonization responds directly to the sort of the ways in which colonial logics were introduced in that particular context. And that's why I would define or describe decolonization as a set of strategies to refuse the part from, among other things, political and epistemic strategies of ongoing colonial conditions. The other thing to point out is that, because it's a political project of racialized peoples, indigenous peoples and colonized peoples, it's very difficult to suggest that in the Global North that we can take any control of the logics and practices of decolonization so it runs from the Global South, northwards it has existed. It's an immediate and continuing refusal from the 15th century of the ways of being and thinking doing of colonialism, which means that it's important to understand what These sets of strategies are what this set of such strategies is responding to. So if we're saying decolonization is a set of strategies responding to the introduction or the integration of colonial conditions of life, what exactly are these colonial conditions of life and how are they integrated? So, I use the words colonialism and coloniality interchangeably to distinguish it from colonization. So colonization would be the administrative control of territory, so the actual spatial temporal administration of territory but colonialism or colony ality. According to Annabelle Kihara who uses the word collegiality remains the most general form of domination in the world today. So he talks about the colonial matrix of power, which sort of at its base, the social category of races introduced as a key mode of classification or a technology of power to create a hierarchy of humanity. That hierarchy, therefore, also relates to epistemologies to normativity is to ontologies. And I'll come back to this in in a moment. So you have on the slide there, a panel so this is taken from South America, where the hierarchy that was created was sort of a range of 16 different races and hierarchies of humanity. Nelson Maldonado, Torres talks about you know, this ongoing colonization sort of colonialism coloniality and distinguish it distinguishes it from colonialism, from colonization, sorry. So he says that colonialism refers to the long standing patterns of power that emerge, and they sort of they are produced by or maintain the live in books criteria for academic performance. And essentially, this concept of coloniality is constitutive of what we understand as modernity. So, Maldonado Torres argues that as modern subjects as subjects of modernity, we breathe coloniality all the time, and every day. So work, when we talk about decolonization, we have to understand that the relationship between coloniality and modernity is integral to the work that we produce the world we research the language in which we use the methods, they're all produced by colonially coded logics that can be in certain cases made invisible, because, you know, that's just the world we live in, right. So the problem therefore, with this, you know, breathe in coloniality, every day, and all the time, it's more than subjects is that because of the hierarchy created the epistemic hierarchy of humanity that has been created, that particular bodies, racialized bodies, gendered bodies, sexualized bodies, bodies, that sort of non heteronormative   13:08 sort of economically disadvantaged bodies, all these sorts of groups of bodies are not structured within our knowledge system have not been structured within these knowledge systems, as Knowers. So one could ask them, whether or not the vocabularies these sort of markers of modality, as Nelson Maldonado Torres is, you know, talking about things been maintained alive the vocabularies, categories of thought, concepts that are employed by our normative social science that, you know, in my own case, are they an effective means for making sense of or understanding research in these non Western worlds? As Ronco, you mean, suggests, we've got Western theories and African subjects and these things do not always sort of resonate or CO locate. So we then are attempting within most of our research to explain the ways of being and thinking that don't arrive or not predicated on concepts such as gender, the colonized notions of nations or categories as developed, developing traditional or modern, so we are trying to understand something or we're trying to understand things through lenses that are sort of structured not to see the things that they are trying, or they're claiming to see, we have these ideas of rights and obligations in which do not sort of, again, map on to the way in which are the ways in which indigenous colonized racialized peoples have sort of Article ated, the interrelationships. And this has led to, among other things, the breakdown of human interaction, as well as the breakdown of the sort of environment and the climate. And we've got sort of climate change, rising waters. So essentially what we're doing in many cases is we're taking people's experiences and trying to transpose them through preconceived categories, assimilating them into terms that are then put into work, but they're not seeing the things that we are trying to make them see. And this leads me back to my initial sort of framing question, what is our why? Why are we doing this research, if we're not actually seeing as well as we could be the experiences we are trying to research the world that we are trying to research. So, the coloniality, colonialism, sort of modernity relationship is almost reliant, then one could sort of present on the commodification of knowledge. So rather than actually producing knowledge for the making the world better, we are actually producing knowledge that is more or less commodified, or common and modifiable, that you have what I call the research industrial complex. This produce production of publications that relies very much on free labor on equal international research, partnerships and a long history of harmful research. As Linda two way Smith argues, she says research is one of the it's probably one of the dirtiest slang words in the indigenous world's vocabulary. In one of her lectures, Eve tuck tells a story of how white Canadian researchers would regularly visit indigenous communities to collect vials of blood from indigenous peoples without their consent, and without care, and they would pay them $1 Each time a particular child called that $1 That blood money Sibella and love that shiny, describes research and ask the activity of undressing other people so as to see them naked. Emanuela gray asked us to always understand that research, knowledge production cannot be neutral. And often by trying by claiming objectivity and neutrality, we obscure the political and ethical dimensions of research. So I suggest that to think about research, we need to sort of unpack so if we're thinking about research and decolonization, we need to unpack the what the how the WHO for what we value, and what exactly it is it for. So the ontology, epistemology, normativity, axiology. And teleology. And I'll come back to those know how those map onto other bits of our research in a few sort of seconds.   18:08 So I want to sort of very quickly think through or think about, or talk about how research has sort of been exceptionally harmful. So there are lots and lots of examples. I'm only going to mention a few. Marion Sims, for example. The it's called the father of gynecology, and he lots of his research was based on experimentation on enslaved women without anesthesia and without their direct consent. Robert Koch, who is called the father of immunology set up concentration camps, essentially, in East Africa, where he tested on the indigenous population, chemical called a toxin which contained arsenic trying to find out how effective it was a secure for sleeping sickness, it was known that this chemical would cause blindness, severe sort of reactions and even death. When he perfected it, he brought it back. So he, he was German brought it back to Germany, and sort of commodified it marketed it the Tuskegee syphilis, experimental study involves the sort of treatments so to speak of, or the injection of black subjects or black men with so they were being studied about 400 black men were being studied, they will deliberately left untreated so that doctors could be could study syphilis. They were told the subjects of the study, all black men were told that the they were being given a cure, most of them died horrifically. Then we've got Henrietta Lacks whose stem cells were taken without her consent, again commodified without her Families consent, the Kamloops residential school in Canada, the indigenous registers dental school were very young children between the ages of four, excuse me, and 15 were taken from their families. In the past year, it was discovered that there were on there were mass graves on that particular property, and several other mass graves and residential schools have been discovered. And this was based also on sort of research around educational research around the best way to provide education for indigenous peoples. In the current day, we have studies on FGM, we have studies on child soldiers we have there was a study in Nairobi paper was released in 2020, where the subjects of the study were left without wastewater and water for about 10 months. We have therefore, excuse me, there's a long history of over research communities in the context in which the presumptions sort of around the time are that the these over research communities or not, so they fall into this hierarchy? So the into the bottom of the hierarchy of humanity? So the underlying questions that I sort of raised earlier, the ontology, the epistemology normativity, teleology, axiology of these studies, affect and continue to affect the design care, research questions that are being put forward, the very asides put it why of the research? So if we, as modern subjects breathe coloniality all the time and every day? How, then is our research, continually being shaped by the breadth of modernity that is constitutive of coloniality? How do these sorts of questions around who we are as human beings, and where we live, as you know, the Earth or the planet upon which we live? How does that affect the very research that we do the very sort of languages, vocabularies, concepts upon which we rely on? How do we try and break out of those.   22:31 So there is a paradox here. And this is why I kind of tried to trace the my examples of this sort of harmful research from period of racialized enslavement to 2020, that we think that as you know, time continues to move on, there is progress being made, we are becoming more aware of the ways in which race permeates the structures of our research projects, and there is increased urgency to addressing that. So you know, you've been saying when we have to do better, we need to decolonize this and recognize that or we need to be aware of, you know, questions of diversity or inclusivity. But what is actually happening, on the other hand, so on the one hand, we are being sort of becoming more aware, trying to be more inclusive, on the other hand, there is an increased pressure to deliver and lots of people in higher education will sort of relate to or will be able to sort of testify to the fact that the publish or perish, is increasingly becoming publish and perish. And therefore, this pressure to deliver indirectly relies on racial inequalities, it relies on all sorts of inequalities. And you see this paradox apparent in things like budget spreadsheets, where addressing salary inequalities of partners in the Global South, for example, means shrinking the number of outputs that can be achieved within a fixed project budget. So metrics and commodification essentially will continue to produce bad ethics and these bad ethics rely on these sort of vocabularies, these concepts of humanity that have always been harmful, and continue to to be harmful. So how do we move beyond research ethics as a form of litigation protection? And think through this, you know, paradox, this research paradox, we are more aware of this racial inequality, but we are still more we continue to be reliant on these sorts of inequalities to produce outputs. That brings us back you know, brings me back to the question that I started with when we use the word decolonization if we're thinking of decolonization Is this the sets the set of strategies that seeks to repudiate the introductions of these colonial conditions of life? There's colonial ways of sort of ways of dehumanization, dispossession, these ways of thinking, being and living in the world. How exactly do we then talk about decolonizing? Our research? And I suggest that maybe we cannot do that. But I'll sort of give a few sort of suggestions in the next few slides and then Close. And one of the reasons why I suggest that we cannot think that far at the moment is because we are often bound by the standards of the discipline, we are bound by the structures of the university and the world in which we live, work, study, the world in which we breathe. But how then. So, you know, if my suggestion is that that is all to think about decolonizing our research means we need to think beyond the very sort of form of the research itself. What can we do? In the meantime, what do we do? And this is why I always suggest, let's start with the why, why are we doing this, if we're researching, as I said, if we're researching because of the amount of money we think we're going to make from research, then that's probably we've probably chosen the wrong profession. But lots of times, we do want to make the world better. And that if we, if we then see that it is difficult to do so from within the way in which   26:46 the ways in which we are researching the requirements that they have given us that we can sort of work with, think about those rules and unpack them a little bit. So going back to, you know, questions of, you know, ontology, the what question, how do we know, question, Who is it for question, what do we value, we need to think about all of those things. And the products of you know, how coloniality slash colonialism has produced this world, at every single bit of our research project. So at the very beginning, how are we forming our questions, questions of knowledge production? Who are we choosing as partners? What's the relationship? What's the power balance between the partners? who's designing the research? Who's delivering the research? Who's doing the analysis? What form of outputs? Are we thinking about? Do they reproduce these inequalities of this colonial world? Or do they unpack that? Do they disrupt that? So essentially, what does disrupt all of this is the question that we should be was one of the questions that we should be asking at every stage, not at the end, or in the middle. Because there's a tendency, I often see where people talk about decolonization once they've set up their research project. They know the question, they know, the partners, and they think, well, around the time and thinking about outputs, I'm going to think about decolonization. What we need to think on a more macro scale, we need to sort of think about all the theories that we are resting on the theoretical frameworks, for example, are they seeing the people the lived experiences that we want to research? How do we then bring in or enable theorizing from the outside? Are we thinking of our research as you know, there's a universal standard I'm going to try and force other lived experiences and knowledge is into this universal standard or subjugate them to the standard. Escobar asked us to think accurate, Escobar says think about or embrace the pure diversity, universality of epistemologies and ontologies. Therefore, we need to rethink who we're relying on on as thinkers, especially when those thinkers are sort of directly involved in creating these hierarchies of humanities. What vocabularies are we using what's key nations? What questions what concepts are we using, essentially, as Delmia suggests, we need to think about theorizing about as a sort of system of fostering caring, caring for each other. So that's humanity and the earth and that to me is what is your why if the why of research, why we're doing this research, why are we doing this question? If it sort of sits outside of caring for each other and the earth, then we are always going to come back to these questions of, you know, decolonization and colonial knowledge is and colonial. logics in this sort of harmful outcomes of research. So we need to think about who sets the research agenda? Who picks the question? What's the framework? What's the methodology? Who are the partners in thinking through these sort of, you know, what is decolonization in relation to all that? So, as I start, you know, as I said, at the start, I'm thinking with an anti colonial frame, rather than sort of one of decolonization. And that's not to say, you know, decriminalization is relevant is just, I think, because the word excuse me, the word has been co opted a lot I then struggle and has been conflated with, you know, an EDI approach. I then struggled to sort of use that word to articulate what exactly it brings to research. But I think, essentially, for me, it's about an anti colonial reflective practice. All the questions that I have outlined is about thinking, how our research what we do in its sort of theoretical framework in its methodology, in the very research questions, who we partner with the outputs we produce, who we fund, who we're funded by, sorry, you know, the conversations that we have, how all of this can produce different visions of being, doing thinking, that do not reproduce the harms of the past. So the way ways in which we can disrupt this world of broken bones, broken bodies and broken souls.   31:44 As Deborah Byrd rose tells us, epics of decolonization reverse or sidestep, temporal and spatial forms of punctuation, replacement and exclusion. They embrace the coexistence of the peoples who share this place, and embrace the present moment as the time in which all of us share our lives. These ethics expand the present, enabling it to become a real domain of moral action. And sort of to rephrase her to think about decolonization in our research, is to think about doing research in a way in which we do not undress. People who we are researching, to think about research, so it doesn't, it no longer continues to be the dirtiest word in the indigenous vocabulary. So think about decolonization way that doesn't put to think about research sorry, in a way that doesn't produce broken bones, broken bodies, and broken souls to think about research in ways that those communities that have been misused by research, have the space to become the center of their own lives once more.   33:06 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

This series of podcast episodes will focus on Decolonising Research, and feature talks from the Decolonising Research Festival held at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. The second epsiode of the series will feature Dr. Richard Hall from De Montfort University and his talk 'Decolonising DMU and the PGR Experience.'   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcription:   00:09 Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest, about researchers development, and everything in between.   00:32 Hello, and welcome to the second in our series on decolonizing research. In this episode, we hear from Dr. Richard Hall from De Montfort University, talking about decolonizing DMU. And the PGR experience that's going   00:45 to show on the road then. Thank you ever so much for the invite, Chris, and to Kelly as well. It was it's always lovely to get invited down to come talk about work that you've been doing in particular in relation to decolonizing. A little bit of background about me, I work at De Montfort in Leicester. I'm a professor of education and technology there and a National Teaching Fellow, I've been working with a team looking in the first instance at the awarding gap for undergraduate students that was on a project called freedom to achieve and I was the kind of project evaluation and research director on that. And we have a couple of publications out on the back of that I'll talk about that in a little bit more in detail in a in a second. And now I have the same kind of role on our decolonizing DMU project, which has been running since 2019. So I just want to I'm not, I guess I'm, I'm not reclaiming. I don't know what I'm claiming in terms of expertise. I'm not sure I'm claiming any. What I want to do really is to talk you through some of the things that we have been doing as we've tried to widen our work in relation to postgraduate research and some of the issues that have cropped up in that space that we are trying to work through that may then trigger some conversation. So I've got I've also should say I'll pop into the chat afterwards, I've got I've got the slides and some other papers, a self audit tool that we generated, and a presentation on research ethics and PGR on my website, so I'll ping those in the chat, so you'll have access to those as well. I also want to add that much of this work has come out of a long, long period of work with doctors Lucy Ansley, and Paris Connolly, who both currently work at DMU. Lucy is the research fellow on the decolonizing, the new project in Paris was her was her maternity cover. And it was a great privilege to kind of work with them and this work would not have been possible without them. So this is what I want to talk about for the next kind of 25 minutes in a rattle through. I want to try to situate work on the intersection of decolonizing and PGR. Inside an institutional, anti racist program of work called decolonizing DMU. Where that previous previously, that program of work is not really prioritized research is prioritized on the undergraduate experience, it's it's prioritize the awarding gap in particular. So I want to talk about that really, and in particular inside an institution that is teaching intensive and research active.   03:42 Again, the slides are available, I just wanted to kind of give a little bit of an overview, just to say that in terms of our BGR, these latest figures that we have, but in in relation to rpgr population by ethnic group, it is really it is relatively mixed, there are lower levels of of white and certainly white British students than the than the sector average. That's one kind of layer against which we're kind of trying to think about this work going a little bit deeper to kind of think about moving beyond uncovering that layer to try to revealing what exists within that layer, we can see that there's a very definite layer of that level of kind of complexity within that in terms of what we mean by not white, I guess I mean, white in itself is quite, it's complex. And I'm not going here into thinking about other intersections in relation to gender in relation to disability in relation to kind of, I guess, more intersectional kind of understandings. So there is a kind of a layer, a set of layers within that, against which our work has to be placed. So what if we're trying to engage with the lived experiences of students within this space? And in order that those that range of students can see them also reflected in the institution. And as creating the research environment within the institution there are that it isn't as simple for us as kind of white and then Boehm and we're trying to we're trying to, I guess, kind of think through that when we're working with supervisory teams or on doctoral training, for instance. And another layer within this Boris, which is, which is increasingly important, we're seeing within some within some doctoral research, and I'll talk about that in terms of linguist a little bit later, is in relation to what our DDR population looks like in relation to home and international students and what the implications there may be of working with international students through a kind of vehicle decolonizing lens, it's important to note here, I guess that our, in these in these figures, our PGR, population clusters, black is of African heritage.   05:57 Now, the, that's kind of a way of kind of, I guess, trying to talk about the complexities within which we're talking about the population, that populations that we're engaging with, and that will be mirrored with our kind of stuff groupings as well, all of our stuff, groupings tend to look a lot more like me, and tend to be a lot more white, a lot more male, certainly, in particular areas of the university. I'm just gonna give a little bit of background in terms of the context of where this where the work I'm going to talk about has come from, and situate that kind of unraveling of the, of the, of the PGR cohort, our our background, our work over the course since really since 2017, when we were part of a Higher Education Funding Council for England project that then became an office students funded project called freedom to achieve our focus in that was on undergraduate achievement and awarding nothing to do with the kind of student experience beyond that we weren't really thinking about institutional policies and procedures, and we certainly weren't thinking about research. Bringing to achieve was a partnership where it was led by Kingston University. And they, they had they had they had a an inclusive curriculum framework, which is on this diagram is the module on the kind of top right or sort of what whatever that is two o'clock on the right. At the top, they'd also at 12 o'clock, they'd also defined some value added metrics by which kind of program teams could look at the awarding gap within their within their programs. We were looking at this effectively trying to try to link it at the time with work we were doing on on disability and support for universal design for learning as well around kind of around around disability and changes to the DSA in particular that the 2015 I think it was Tory government had bought in. So we were thinking about this really from an undergraduate awarding perspective. And in our co creation events with students. There are some headline thing, headline categories that came out that I think are important that we carried through into our work with PGR students from 2019. So this was uncovered we had we ran some co creation events with students in 2017, through 19. And some of the issues that they they feel like the both students fly with us and with program teams, around relationships, the relationships inside the institution, but also inside the classroom, however constructed, could be lecture could be supervisory team, I guess, if we're thinking about PGR, thinking about their own development in the space as well, and whether that was culturally relevant in relation to the kind of academic support that they were getting. I think that that's important for us to consider stuff around employability as well. And whether that whether the kind of that outplacement stuff beyond the institution, certainly very relevant, I think, for some of my PhD students, whether that whether that was specialized enough for them to kind of think about their own kind of their own kind of, I guess, books or on identity related work in that space. The cultural kind of engagement in terms of teaching and learning, which we kind of we all know about, and a lot of this has come from as well is in there, but also issues around the kind of campus community, wherever there's a sense of belonging and belonging was talked about a lot. One of the other things that was talked about a lot was a perception of inherent whiteness, within that within the space. And these are these are some of the issues that we wanted to kind of carry through and think about in the context of rpgr work. So that was 2017 through 2019. With this fkn office the students funded project freedom to achieve the the outcome of that work really was that we needed to go wider than awarding we needed to go wider than engage engagement with the with the undergraduate issues around retention progression continuation, awarding that this was broader than the continuum. So we defined this project called And decolonizing DMU, which was predicated upon five areas work on where we staff work with students broadly constructed, Library and Learning Services, research, and then the institution and the institutional stuff was really about the race equality charter application that we were working towards. But it was also thinking about policies and structures and issues in relation to things like recruitment and retention.   10:29 At that point at the start, and this disconnects, I think, to our kind of research philosophy, we've also produced draft working position, it's a working position, it is permanently in kind of draft format, it is permanently kind of up for grabs. It was a moment in which we were trying to synthesize what the what the project as a whole was about. And it is important to note that it's called decolonizing DMU. It is, it deliberately centers a process, it deliberately centers the idea that this is a movement, that this isn't a fixed thing that I cannot define Jerusalem on the Hill for you. But we might all in that process of kind of moving. We're thinking about the work of for instance, Zapatista movement that, that asking we move, but we will be questioned where we are in order to take the next step in order to question where we are in order to take the next step. So we were trying to think about this, at the intersection of kind of plural approaches thinking about this in terms of difference and the dignity of difference thinking about this in terms of diversifying in all sorts of spaces and ways decentering. And that's super important. I'll come on to talk about when we think about what Pete postgraduate research students told us about theory and method within their work. So thinking about decentering, knowledge production, thinking about relationality within that, and and devaluing hierarchies. And I'm, I'm super, again, kind of aware of the fact that this is a white male professor talking to you about this kind of stuff. And also diminishing some voices and opinions of dominating. And there's a link to the working position. And it's taken really from a kind of an analysis of work on critical race on abolitionist studies on critical university studies as well. It's about kind of intersection. So as we've moved forward with decolonizing, DMU, we've tried to anchor research in the space, much more than that it was so we've renewed it at the start of the back end of last year and the start of this year. Moving away from those five kinds of components moving towards four commitments, this echoes the work of London Metropolitan University as they've generated their work on an anti racism strategy, which also had commitments embedded within it. And that was a kind of response to some of the work of the ECHR on tackling racism in universities from 2019. The quality of education and research is embedded within that also issues around progression and representation in relation to the kind of stuff within that space as well and what we what might happen there around equality impact, for instance, around promotions. However, however, we have a new vice chancellor, my new vice chancellor, she's Katie Normington has been with us since January 2021. Prior to that, we had an interregnum, with an interim vice chancellor for two years. So at the moment of genesis of decolonizing, DMU, we had moved from a previous Vice Chancellor, who, who left us into A into A into a period with an interim just that 18 months, and then a new vice chancellor. So all of a sudden the kind of strategic governance of this there was a space inside which we could reframe stuff. Now we're seeing with a kind of a new take on it, that there's much more of a push on, on how we map this work to our x axis and participation plan, the race equality charter and thinking again about the awarding gap. So, that kind of sense of Liberator emancipatory work that I talked about in the in the in the working paper gets filed down because of strategic kind of imperatives. So just want to move on to talk about the research environment within this within this context of this project. We had a we had a range of priority stuff we wanted to do evaluate the impact of the project's activity. We wanted to generate a deeper understanding of the journey to become anti racist. We wanted to analyze and this is more important these the next two are the kinds of things I'm going to talk about in the next few slides analyzing the institutional research environment. In particular insight because our research students sit within our research institutes and research centers and they relate to our doctoral training programs when they are supported by a Doctoral College So that research environment and issues around the research community, thinking about   15:07 anti racist research principles, whether we're also moving to the heart of the work we were doing within this strand, we will also try and explore perceptions of what decolonizing means for the university as a whole, I'll come on to talk about some of the outcomes from that because they, they there's a real tension between those, I think, when we when we have worked with and talk to staff on the one hand, and what some of the PhD students PGR students that we've talked to, through workshops have told us in relation to kind of the conservativism of the former, and kind of the desire for more radical action on the on the on the for the latter. There's a lot of stuff on here, this, this is just a guess some of the stuff around the environment that we've done, looking at data with research services, in terms of kind of who is involved in projects, who has been bidding who is PI on project, who's involved in impact case, that is how a PGR is and how is the work of PGR is involved in that. We've done some work with our faculty recent head of research students in business law on admissions and transitions. I'll talk about that in a second. With a dedicated doctoral working group. We've discussed research training, centrally, we've engaged with the faculty research ethics committee, in health and life sciences, which I happen to chair now, in terms of decolonizing, and ethics. And there's a link here to a presentation that I gave to a step of decolonizing, STEM curriculum Working Group on decolonizing and ethics as well that you can access. And also crucially, we had a, we had discussions with 10 of our research institutes, and centers. And I have to confess here that we had 32, I went, I went, I went to 10. Friends, if I'm honest with you, because there are some I knew would would definitely want to give us a harder ride, who definitely have do not have a view that issues around decolonizing a structure or within institutions, and certainly do not apply to Pete The PGR experience. So for us, then there was a, I guess, a focus a little bit of a focus on thinking about through that work, the home home versus international or home and international. And the way in which home and international are entangled was an issue, including some work on language and language in the supervisory space and language within institutions in relation to PGR work. So there's a link here to some of the work of one of my one of the PhD students whom I'm privileged to work with Sumaya Luna, who is who is doing work on the experience of international students, and looking at this in terms of race to linguistics, thinking as well about this in relation to decolonizing and research Engaged Teaching. So trying to think about that trying to think about the relationship between PGR work. And in the context of more broadly research and more broadly, how research influences scholarly practice and teaching as well. Our research tends to map to represent communities made marginal, but tends to be short term and conservative. So one of the things that we've seen almost is a is a fear or a questioning and by some people that actually what the work that they're doing is extractivism it's extracting from particular communities in terms of kinds of data, for instance, and what are the issues there in relation to to participation in co creation, and that that also came out from work we were we were exploring with PGR students. And then this point about if we're trying to enhance the institution, institutions strategically tend to be obsessed with data. However, those data in for decision making those data tend to be owned and managed by different groupings within the institution and trying to get access to them and to link them in order to understand how they what they reveal about the lived experiences that we are being talked about is problematic. So in terms of in terms of that kind of perceptions of decolonizing and this is this is effectively from whilst the 299 surveys here were staff and students, the interviews and the diary entries were where staff   19:36 and really I want to I want just wanted wanted to flag that the that the staff related stuff, effectively focused upon in terms of what decolonizing means and what could be done was much more focused on EDI. It was much more focused upon kind of classic equality, diversity inclusion strategies with limited engagement with reimagining the university with reimagining what spaces might look like with reimagining what, what relationships inside the institution might look like. But it was much more predicated upon kind of equality of opportunity, really, and not seeing kind of structural issues as being a problem within the space. But some stuff, there was much there was much more of a sense of an argument that actually you can't decolonize a NEO colonial space. And that is what the university in the Global North is. For some black and ethnically minoritized students and staff, there was a sense that actually there's a there are problems of trust in in trusting the institution to deliver and that any engagement will just purely be tokenistic. There's all it was also problematic, certainly for the three of the staff that we interviewed. And it came through in a number of the survey, open text responses that some white students and staff a whole whole range of stuff here and denial around refusal about and in particular, and what about Murray, and that what about re being about white working class boys in particular. So here, we were trying to situate our work on decolonizing, I think around trying to how do we build a longer term strategy, whilst at the same time focusing upon this idea that that we can take an anti racist approach, which is daily impersonal, and local and challenging, whilst at the same time doing more decolonizing work that might be about unlearning, and might be about culture change. So in terms of PGR, it is a little bit more detail about what we about what we have been doing over the course of the last kind of 18 to 24 months influenced and impacted by COVID, I would have to say, because really slow down progress within the institution. The first thing that we don't want to talk about that we did was around this issue of of having a working group in our Faculty of Business and Law that was catalyzed in conversation with our faculty head of research students who were subsequently left. And so some of the momentum was dark drifted away because of that. The work that they were interested in discussing, and we had we held a series of workshops on this was around barriers to inclusivity, and ensuring that we can support diversity in relation to candidates and how we I guess, or transition and the criteria that we use when reviewing and assessing applications in relation to the types of methods the backgrounds the the the connections and identities that people are coming in with. And then their methodological approaches that they want to come in with, rather than necessarily forcing them down and kind of a standard sort of set of roots. And there was a sense that that that was happening. And there was a need to effectively to undertake some more reflexive development or training with potential supervisors focus really on kind of unpacking kind of the language you we use in relation to assessment. So how are we assessing excellence? How are we assessing originality? Are we thinking about implicit or unconscious bias when we are when we're working with prospective students, and also with those who are transitioning into the institution and what this group wanted to do was draft a core set of principles around recruitment with their supervisors that will be the would have to think about this issue of balancing disciplinary or subject based quality, whatever that is, and issues of equality or equity. And so in the workshops that we held, people were focused on applications are principles and criteria being applied equally. Are they transparent? For instance, is some sort of hidden? Is there a hidden curriculum in relation to this? Do we is there an expectation of conformity and hegemonic narratives within within the kind of theoretical and methodological domains? And how are we communicating what we what we're looking for? Understanding that we're dealing with developmental and naive and novice and   24:16 researchers in this space, also, being mindful within this and this was brought up by a number of supervisors about the emotional labor that will be required both both of PGR students and supervisors given how given how intense this work could be, and for some, there'll be an A would have to invoke cultural code switching in order to cope within the institution. One of the other issues that was raised was was how have we manage all of this within within a competitive environment where where we just have the ref result sale and people are competing for, for internal bursaries. They're competing for the resources, institutions are on Can disciplines and individuals kind of locked into a competitive environment? And how does money work within that space in particular in relation to kind of international and home students the role of visas within that space as well was talked about? And how do we how do we appropriately mentor and involve a read the full range of PhDs within that space within that kind of more competitive environment. Supervisors, there's another couple of slides on their supervisors talked about transitions and support giving power to PGR. Students themselves as groups were those groups existed within institutes and centers, in order to help overcome issues of isolation in order to support mentoring in order to try to support transition, and here, a very critical issue was raised in terms of how to support the internal transition into PGR, into PhD PGR work, rather than that focus upon external or externally funded students, for instance, part of part of this as well was focused upon in terms of transitions, the pressure the process related pressures of the first year, and how do we work with a range of students to around our relationships, our communication of that our expectations of that, so in particular, here in relation to kind of probation reviews, and who is undertaking those, and an ethics where they might form a block methodologically, or again, theoretically, and here, one of the issues that was was raised was around wellbeing, in particular, and mental health, and particularly in relation to kind of supervisory relationship relationships. And that's, that's this is my final slide on what on those kind of supervisory workshop outcomes. And that was around those kinds of considerations for supervisors. And in and in particular, here, I guess, a sense of how do we broaden the skill sets within teams in order that in order that student identity identities can be supported within that within within the space, and so that's a kind of constant negotiation with students, in terms of the in terms of the PGRs themselves, what they were, what they were focused upon, was much more about horizontal relations within research institutes within their supervisory spaces, respectful of people's kind of privilege, as a as a as a risk as an established researcher with a PhD. The focus upon having dedicated bits of work reading groups, for instance, modes of analysis, different modes of analysis and presentation in order to understand different perspectives, positions and values in particular. So to see this much more driven by humane values within the research environment, and the research sets of relationships, rather than that kind of competitive value, economic value and surplus driven approach that they were situated within, and then how to build a kind of positive, more positive, more inclusive, learning environment. And again, a sense of coming back to kind of methodology and theory and the students were quite strong on not wanting, not wanting to be involved in research that was extractive pushing back against hegemonic theory and hegemonic methods and seeing much more kind of intersection and interaction between theory and method, thinking about engaging with grassroots and participatory work, and thinking much more about intersectional approaches and working with communities.   28:50 So I don't really want to talk much more about, about that about kind of that side of things other than to say that one of the things that kind of came out of this work with 10 reselect centers and Institute's but also with our students and staff was the self audit tool, and it's linked here. It's also linked on my website, and I'll put the I'll put the blog post up in the chat in a second. There's also a talk a dedicated talk about the self audit tool as part of our our first hour decolonizing festival we had a month or so ago, and there's a link to it there. But one of the things that we ask it research institutes and centers to look at well, here's a series of issues in relation to PGR. There are there's a series of other issues we asked them to think about in terms of impact output environment. But in terms of in terms of PGR, we're thinking about we're asking them, do they are they monitoring registrations, completions, terminations, withdrawals in order to come up with action plans? How are they engaging with voice within the context of their center or Institute How are they thinking about scholarships and bursaries? Are they? Are they thinking about dedicated support for black and ethnically minoritized applications into the space? Or are they just open? Not not by you. I said, just you know, and that sounds pejorative, but as their dedicated work varies, that is happening in order to decode the space. For a range of students, this is a critical one, our students are being supported in finding mentors outside of their supervisory teams, I've just we've just been working on with one student that I supervise on on finding someone who can help them in much more detail around critical race. So we've brought that person in. And then what are we thinking about in terms of what do you think about in terms of methodology and theory, the the construction and composition of supervisory teams, and also an examination teams. So this is a range of stuff that we are thinking about in relation to that. So that's the kind of last slide on this, I just, I just then, just want to caution, I guess, before I finish, that a lot of this is now is now increasingly governed, as we know, by a drive a policy driver governance and regulation and funding drive around value and value for money. So we we see this being driven by the Office for Students have a value for money strategy, which against which institutions are regulated. And there's been a an increasing, I guess, momentum around ideas of value as opposed to humane values. And one of the things that our project has been trying to do is to think about relationality humane values. However, we define those, and, as I said before, a kind of movements of dignity really, but they do tend to run up against these regulatory requirements around value and surplus within the space. We equally know that the government is, is has a focus on freedom of speech, and it constructs that in a particular way as well. And at the bottom here, we have a recent tweet from Susan Lapworth, the   32:21 acting head of Office of students talking, talking about how she would expect autonomous, autonomous universities to be thinking carefully and independently about free speech. When signing up to the talks about these sorts of schemes. She's talking about Athena SWAN race equality charter, she's talking about work around decolonizing, for instance. So there's a there's a, there's a cultural and policy terrain that's been constructed in this space. And we we know that there's a need for this work to happen. There's a lot of evidence that has that has been kind of raised from the kind of leading roots work in relation to the PGR, the EHR, CS work on tackling racial harassment, for instance. But intersectional and differential experiences of mental health, for instance. So we know that there's an issue there, but it is being challenged explicitly by government in this space. And it does mean that for institutional leaders trying to do work, for instance, around decolonizing and PGR. There's a line to be there's a line to be trodden, I guess. So. There's just a few quotes from from Gavin Williamson, as part of the government's higher education restructuring regime for around COVID-19. So if you wanted if you want, if you want money, so if you're struggling and you want money is in relation to kind of your response to the pandemic is now closed, then then there are efficiencies there are requirements wrapped around that. And one of them there is a commitment to academic freedom and free speech and student use. Student Unions should not be subsidizing niche activism and campaigns DFD in a statement in 2020, on reducing bureaucratic burden in research and innovation, again, marked out Athena SWAN and race equality work as inefficient, bureaucratic and detracting from core teaching activities. In the free the free speech and academic freedom. Bill, it's very clear that it regards to colonizing as a contested political ideology. So there's there's that space as well. And then I mean, adenan, speaking in response to the Krej commission, it's very clear that an institutional response and a societal response to a lot of these issues should be around the individual and the individuals agency and resilience and support and that support should come from institutions that there is no structure or set of issues that are driving any of these problems in relation to, for instance, PGR transition or BGR achievement and awarding, and instead the issue here is around quality and standards, choice based consumer rights, access participation, and then employment outcomes that is going to be outcomes that drive this. So I just think it's important that that policy framework shapes the institutional appetite for this work, and it shapes some of the responses that we're seeing from staff in relation to conservative responses as opposed to the PGR students desire and drive for something more radical.   35:33 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between

This series of podcast episodes will focus on Decolonising Research, and feature talks from the Decolonising Research Festival held at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. The first epsiode of the series will feature Professor Chrissie Boughey from Rhodes University and her talk 'Decolonising the curriculum: Experiences from South Africa'.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcription   00:09 Hello, and welcome to rd in the in betweens. I'm your host Kelly Preece. And every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development, and everything in between.   00:32 Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of beyond your research degree. This episode marks the first in a new series on decolonizing research. So this is off the back of a decolonizing Research Festival. I organized at the University of Exeter in June and July 2022. We recorded all of the talks as part of the festival and the turning all of those talks into podcast episodes so that whether you are able to attend the festival or not, you can still benefit from the rich and vibrant knowledge that was shared. So without further ado, here's our first recording. The first talk from the festival was called decolonizing, the curriculum experiences from South Africa. And it's a talk by Dr. Chrissy Bowie from Rhodes University.   01:19 Okay, everybody, we've now got what 18 people in the room that's including me, and some of the organizers, but I think I'm going to get going anyway. As I've already said, my name is Chrissy Bowie, and I'm joining you from I'm actually now in Stellenbosch in the mountains outside Cape Town, where it is very, very cold. Unlike England where I understand you're having a heatwave, or you were having a heatwave I am an emeritus professor of Rhodes University and I worked at Rhodes University for many years. And my field is higher education studies. So I've done a lot of research and supervision in higher education studies. But I also had the dubious honor of being Deputy Vice Chancellor at the end of my career at Rhodes University. And I was DVC. Academics, I was in charge of all matters related to teaching and learning. It was a time when South Africa was rocked by student protests. But I'll speak about those in the course of my presentation. Please could ask you to keep your camera's off. Just for the bandwidth. I'll switch mine off in a moment, I'm going to use a PowerPoint. I will be very happy to take questions at the end. If there's a burning point, stick your hands up. And I'll also try to monitor the chat. I hope I don't get too caught up in my own presentation. To do that. I'll try to manage to the chat and address anything as it as it goes along. One last point from me. And that is South Africa has waves of load shedding. And we just started a new load shedding run at the moment. And it's quite well, my area is sheduled for load shedding in an hour. So I'm quite likely to just disappear at one o'clock. So don't think I'm being rude. It's because the powers gone. And it takes and the Internet goes and it takes a while for the generators to kick in. So please, I'm sorry, if if I have an abrupt departure. But I'll always be very happy to speak to anybody on the email if you want to. And I'll put my email address, I'm CDOT Bowie at on you.ac A if you need to afterwards. So let's get going. I'm going to share my screen and I have a presentation. Okay. So what you can see on the screen is a picture of Rhodes University, which is in the Eastern Cape in South Africa. And you've only got to look at it to see how in appearance, how colonial it is Rhodes University. So some of Cecil John's Rhodes his money was involved in getting it going and it still bears the name Rhodes, which obviously is hugely problematic. I won't speak to the name changing stories, but needless to say they are ongoing So it's a historically white university. It is research intensive. So one of the small group of universities that produces the bulk of his research in South Africa. It's also one of the smallest universities in South Africa. And as I said, it's located in Eastern Cape, which is one of the poorest provinces in the country. So that's a little bit of background to where I worked. I was there for 22 years. But I also worked at the University of Zululand. And the reason I originally came to South Africa and bridge by birth, was that I came on an aid project in the 1980s, to the University of the Western Cape, which at that time, was at the forefront of the struggle against apartheid. And I found it impossible to leave just for all sorts of reasons. But mostly because I became hooked with the idea that I wanted to try to make a contribution in this country at a time of great social change.   06:13 So what you can now see on the screen is a picture taken at Rhodes University, from the student protests, and we had waves of student protests in 2015 16, and 17. And the protests were under a number of banners. So roads must fall. And you might be familiar with that, because of, obviously, there's Oriel College in Oxford, but also in South Africa. At the University of Cape Town, there were protests about the statue, the the Cecil John Rhodes statue on the campus, which was eventually removed. But there were also went into the banner of fees must fall. And then finally, the so called reference list, but I'll explain those. So what were the roots of the protests? Well, basically, a lot of it was about the inability of poor black students to pay tuition fees, as in other countries across the world, tuition free fees have risen steadily in South Africa. And as those fees have risen, more and more black students have managed to gain access to the higher education system. We are now rightly, a system where the majority of students are black. But the participation rate of 18 to 22 year olds still doesn't reflect the proportion of black people in the country. So basically, what that means is that if you're white, you're more likely to get to a university than if you're black, and particularly if you're poor, and black. The rising fees problem was exacerbated by lack of access to bursaries, and loans. So that there is now thanks to the protests, a much more established bursary system, some of it which is a loan system, but if a student passes, basically, a loan is converted to a bursary. But for black working class students in particular, particular, there was an inability to access loans from commercial banks, there's literally no collateral in families. So their families weren't able to access a loan to allow them to study. So there's this huge burden of fees. And at the same time, we've got data. And that data shows a really persistent pattern, and we haven't managed to shift it. And you'll find that in the council and higher education, vital stats series that some an analysis of performance in higher education produced year on year. And what that shows is that, regardless of the universities at which they're registered, regardless of the field of study, and regardless of the level of the qualification, black students don't do as well as white students. Now, many people, including myself, for many years have argued that it's the system that's problematic in South Africa. It's a higher education system. Historically, black students were understood as carrying problems inherited from their poor schooling with them into the universities. But from way back in the mid 1980s. And this was an idea that captured me. It was argued that the students aren't the problem, the system is the problem. It's the universities that have to change. And that idea of transformation of change was certainly picked up as South Africa moved into democracy. And you see it over and over again, in policy documents. But we're still seeking transformation. We're not a transformed system in so many ways. But of course, the other reason for the protests was decolonial theory. And I've cited machmood Mamdani. There. And Mamdani is actually in 1998, gave a lecture at the University of Cape Town.   10:55 He's a Ugandan scholar, and he was very, very critical of the curriculum at the University of Cape Town. But of course, Nanjiani is just one scholar. There are many, many other scholars who write about theorize decolonial ality many from the American Southern Americas. But I've cited Mamdani there. So it the protests came out of a hole, hear a lot of things. But basically, it was about black students being treated unfairly in the universities. And one of the things that you saw on the placards in the protests, were statements like you don't see us. We don't see black students. So, you know, people are teaching but they're teaching to a class. And they're not seeing that the majority of their students now are different to the students they sat beside, when they were students years ago. And another thing that was quite common on placards in the protests, were statements like you can say credit, but not her, Debbie. So characters in Afrikaans name, credit OB is a name in the Goony languages. So, you know, the claim there was well, okay, you, you white lecturers, you can use an Afrikaans name correctly, but you can't say my name. So that's the sort of thing that we saw in the protests. So I'm going to talk about the curriculum. And I'm going to begin with the assumption that the curriculum is not neutral. It's a structure that distributes access to knowledge.   12:58 And with that, access to the goods of the world,   13:04 and to power in all sorts of ways. I've kept the idea of knowledge vague there. But basically, I would see the curriculum as a structure that's implicated in power, through distributing access to knowledge. After the protests, most universities began some sort of curriculum review, or renewal projects, and Jonathan Jansen, who's a very well known South African scholar, he has a book and there's a list of references at the end of this presentation. And he, he did some research on what the universities were doing in order to start this process of curriculum review. I don't think it's got very far, I think most of those projects are floundering. If not, if he actually floundered. I won't go into the reasons for that. But I don't think it's been hugely successful. But what I wanted to do, and this is my own thinking, is draw on a sort of continuum of thinking about approaches to decolonizing the curriculum. And this comes from my own experience of being in South African higher education, reading the literature, going to conferences, and things like that. And I've arranged them along a continuum from what I've called weaker approaches to stronger approaches. And any any, if you look at Jonathan Johnson's book, I think what you could do is look at the work that's is reported in the book, and you could start to play some on this continuum.   15:07 Okay, so   15:12 let's begin. But I want to begin with the work of Bernstein, British sociologist basil Bernstein, who I think is really useful in thinking about the curriculum. And not only in relation to decolonization and what Bernstein does is he identifies equals to discourses to knowledge forms, if you like. And he The first is horizontal discourse, which is everyday common sense knowledge, closely tied to the context in which it arises. And it often exists only in spoken language. And you encounter that all over the place outside the university. So if I give you an example of horizontal discourse, South Africa is a big country. And it contains several weather systems, because different oceans, different ocean temperatures on either side of the country. So if you live on the eastern side of the country, in KwaZulu Natal, they then you might make a statement which says, In cuisine and sell it, or it rains in the summer. And that is true for the eastern part of the country. In the eastern part, rain falls in the summer months. And it's because it's water vapor clouds coming in off the Indian Ocean. That's not true for the western part of the country. In the Western Cape where I'm located, it rains in the winter, the summer is the dry, dry season. So that statement, it always rains in the summer, is tied to the context of somebody's experiences in the eastern parts of the country.   17:27 So very, very closely linked to a particular context text. It's true, but it's true of a particular context.   17:40 Vertical discourse, on the other hand, is theorized abstract, systematized knowledge that can cross contexts. Now, if I go back to my rain example, an example of vertical discourse would be the explanation of the weather system that is often given in schools to quite young children. And I'm sure you all know about that, you know, sun shines on the ocean, the water evaporates, it forms clouds, the clouds move over the land, the rain falls over the land, and it runs back into the ocean, through rivers. So obviously, that's a very simplified version of an explanation of weather. But it's been systematized, the knowledge has been systematized. It's abstract, you can't see the water vapor rising of the ocean. And there's a whole theory in it about heat and goodness knows what else to explain weather systems. Now that knowledge will explain rainfall, if I get keep in South Africa, in the eastern part of the country, and in the western parts of the country, which have very different weather systems. So of course, vertical discourse, this theorized abstract, systematized knowledge that can cross contexts. It's the stuff of schools were introduced with his children in schools. It exists in written forms, mostly one would argue in written forms. And what it does essentially is it acts as a lens that allows the world to be seen differently. So it's like it's theory put theory on, like a pair of spectacles, and then you can see the world differently, you can understand the world differently. And importantly, it will also allow us to predict. And of course, this theorized abstract system. acties knowledge allows us to make hypotheses, which then can be tested. And scientists do that all the time. So you can predict a world if you like the data jets exist. And because of all these features, vertical discourse is often cited by the likes of Lisa Wheeler, Han, and other scholars who draw on beans Bernstein as powerful knowledge. It's powerful because of its its power to explain and predict, whereas horizontal discourse is stuck to local contexts. So two kinds of knowledge identified by Bernstein. Okay, now let's get back to approaches to decolonizing, the curriculum. And one at one of the most early approaches, it was to introduce examples and texts into curricula, African examples and effort, African authors, African texts, bring those into the curriculum. So many of the textbooks that are used in the universities are, in fact imported from the Global North. And when you look at those textbooks, they'll have examples from the global Norse. But the theories that the textbook books teach, they're also mostly generated in the Global North. They're not theories that were produced in the global south in Africa. So so any textbook is likely to contain these examples and theories from from the global Norse. There are our South African textbooks written by South African academics, particularly in higher education. And they also may well drawn examples from the Global North. And they will draw on theory from the Global North. And the other thing, of course, is that literature is overwhelmingly generated in the Global North Africa produces less than 1% of the world's research. And one one of the problems is that researchers from the global north, often come selves. And they literally mined the continent for data. And they publish on Africa.   22:39 That they're not of Africa, they're not applicant. But but they they find Africa a really interesting place. And they'll come and do research here. And one of my colleagues in higher education studies, once told me that he loved doing research in South Africa, because the problems was so raw here. But that that research obviously, was being undertaken from a theoretical view series produced in the in the Global North by a British researcher. And it was mostly published in British journals and books, books, published publishers. And even when you get work done by African searcher researchers, it tends to draw on dominant theories generated in the in the Global North. So, you know, fine, you can cite African authors, but the thinking they are using thinking they are using theory. And to go back to my Bernstein slide, they're using the knowledge, the theoretical, abstract, systematized knowledge that's been generated in the global Norse. To do that research in African there might be publishing in Africa. So this was an approach to the decolonization of the curriculum that emerged very quickly following the protests. And I say that was a weak approach towards the left hand end of that continuum. I shown you I've shown you, and I hope that as I continue, you'll start to see why and how it differs from what I'll call stronger approaches. Okay, so another, also sorry, what does it do? What does that approach achieve? Well, of course, it does affirm Africans, African scholars, as researchers and knowledge makers. I think it does But then does it? If they're using theory from the Global North? I put a question mark there because of that, does it provide access to knowledge through local examples, many would argue, argue that if you, if you put an example in from Africa, students are probably better able to understand you'd have to have more evidence to support that claim, I think, I'm not aware of research that's been been done that will affirm that claim. But potentially, using African examples drawing on African research would have the potential to affirm and possibly provide greater access. But another approach, and this sort of leads on to providing access to, to knowledge to Western knowledge is is the use of Indigenous Knowledges as a kind of stepping stone. And I've got an example here. So a mercy. And it's a type of fermented milk, a bit like drinking yogurt is widely consumed in South Africa. And nowadays, you can buy it in supermarkets, but of course, historically, it was made at home. And when, when a Massey has been made and consumed, you need to clean the bowl, before you put more milk in to make more a Massey, because obviously, you need the right kind of bacteria to start the fermentation process. So an indigenous practice is to use a particular kind of leaf, an indigenous plant to sterilize the bill. And I've actually seen someone doing this, someone demonstrating it, and the leaf had a sort of silvery sheen on the back. And you could see as the role was cleaned with the leaf, some of the celebrates its sheen going off onto the inner surface of the bell. and Western science explains that as   27:30 the leaf having antibiotic properties, so the leaf has the potential to kill the bacteria that remain in the bowl, the wrong kind of bacteria, and then you can put the milk in, and the milk will ferment as you want it to. So with that sort of example, what's happening is that Western science is taking over and indigenous knowledge in the form of a practice. So okay, the knowledge is, if I clean my bowl with this particular relief, then I will be able to produce good MRC. If I do that, that's the knowledge and I clean my bow therefore, as a result of a practice that emerges from the knowledge. What Western science does is it takes over the knowledge and practice and it explains it in its own terms. It explains it in terms of the leaf, having antibiotic properties. And and there's a lot of this. Some of you might remember the the there was a lot in the newspapers about it about a plant who deer which is used by the sun to stave off hunger and Western pharmaceutical companies. We're find out the identified the compounds in the hoodia plant, and we're using it to produce what diet medication and medication to that would help people you lose weight. So the science the western science takes over indigenous knowledge and practice. And it explains it in terms of Western science. And I've got another example of that here. And this was a book published last year. Big project. killers that hotel. And what they were looking at was   29:44 rural students.   29:48 Students really from quite remote parts of the country and their experiences as they came into institutions of higher education inside of Africa. But the approach that they drew on was very much using indigenous knowledge as a stepping stone to understanding dominant western knowledge, the knowledge of the universities. And another person who does this is Madonna and Fatima Dondo. And he was actually involved in the project, though he doesn't appear as an author of the book, and he has an article on it. I know that in Redondo he was teaching in a particular kind of program aimed at giving more access to students from poor black working class backgrounds in at Rhodes university. But what I've done here is I've cited from his data, and it's in this article here. And so this is one of his students he interviewed. And so the student says, there is a similarity between indigenous knowledge, like our grandpa, parents knowing how to diagnose cars, when they're sick from grazing, we went to a dam, so he's talking about his class, now. We went to a dam, we went there, they know back home, and he's talking about the village, they know back home, how do you detect climate changes that are affecting water, where you were not sure when you were growing up, you were not sure whether it's true or not. But when you experience it at university, you're like, Oh, I've actually heard about this. So what what madonn do uses that quotation from the student to illustrate is his approach to teaching, which was to get students to activate and ditch indigenous knowledge that they might have been introduced to and grown up with from being very small. And to use it as a basis on which to begin understanding the knowledge in the Bachelor of Science degree for which they were studying. And of course, you can see how, in this quotation, it's affirming, yeah, that I'd accept that as a some evidence of students being affirmed by by the use of indigenous   32:28 knowledge.   32:30 So you can use it as a stepping stone. And I put that approach as moving towards the stronger end of the curriculum that I'm talking about.   32:44 Okay. I want you to move on now.   32:53 To what I'd consider the strongest approaches, and a challenge, a real challenge. And I'm very conscious as I'm talking now, that I'm a white woman. I'm an aging academic schooled in western knowledge,   33:15 and conscious of that, but let me begin with   33:21 a story if you like I used to work up in Zulu lands in northern KwaZulu Natal and in eastern parts of the country. I was at the University of Zeeland. And I was told by a researcher there a botanist, who had written a Zulu herb theory. So she had categorized classified the plants used by traditional healers in their healing practices. And Anna Hutchings told me that traditional healers in the region treated high blood pressure, which they called the high high, very successfully using herbs so that they had a remedy for high blood pressure, what we know as high blood pressure. Interestingly, the healers were also drawing on Western knowledge when they named it the high high. What Works Hutchins told me was that the compounds in the herbs and remember she was a botanist, are the same as those incorporated into globe Global North manufactured medication. So if you go to a Western trained medical practitioner, and you get medication for high blood pressure, that medication will contain the same compounds that the traditional healers were using in the herps. But, and this is important point.   34:52 The traditional healers didn't recognize the heart as a pump. Now   34:59 I No had high blood pressure is about the heart. It's about something that the heart not pumping the blood as it should do that. But in western science, high blood pressure is is understood as emanating from a problem with the heart and its function as a pump in the body. The traditional healers in that part of the country didn't recognize God as a pump. And I remember and telling me that she'd been at ceremonies where a beast had been slain as beats bass was cut up to be consumed. She asked what does this do? Pointing to the heart and a completely different explanation was provided by the healers. So what I think you can see here is another theory of being and as a theory of physiology, underpins the practice of the traditional healers, they could treat what we know as high blood pressure and what they call the high high very effectively. But the theory underpinning that treatment   36:20 was different. What is the theory? That's what we need, what is the theory? Because that is a theory that is of the South is of Africa   36:41 but yeah, I know Hutchings was a white woman, a botanist. But she she worked in sunnah lamb for many years, spoke fluent Zulu worked with with traditional healers over a long time, and had enjoyed a high level of trust with them. But she herself hadn't actually been able to explicate the theory, she was more interested in producing this classification of herbs. But I would argue that that theory and other theories of a similar kind, not only for physiology for a theory of being but but for the world, other theories need to be identified and explicated.   37:34 So, to go back to Bernstein   37:39 indigenous knowledge currently exists mainly as practice and is communicated as horizontal discourse. That is, it's very closely tied to the context. Now, my domestic worker in I used to live in the Eastern Cape. When I was at roots university, my domestic worker was called to become a traditional healer. And her training as a traditional healer was a kind of apprenticeship. So she was apprentice to a sangoma to a traditional healer, over a period of many years. And she needed to go off and she would spend days in the bush, with with her, her mentor, with the Master, if you like the the knower would spend days in the bush. And she'd learned the practice of healing from from this expert. My domestic worker could read and write, but I'm sure that none of the knowledge that she gained as a result of this apprenticeship to a traditional healer was written, it was all communicated   39:03 orally. So why   39:07 indigenous knowledge exists, it exists as practice. It's communicated as horizontal discourse, and it will be closely tied to context. So if I look at the knowledge that my domestic worker developed through her training, as a sangoma, it would have been in relation to the plants that grew in the Eastern Cape. I'm not a botanist, but many of those plants would be different to the plants in other parts of the country, but closely tied to the context in which she developed the knowledge. So what I would argue along with others, and who am I to argue remember, I'm the white woman, trained in In Northern Western scientific methods, as it were, but but people like psycho camallo, and I've got a reference to his book. And if you're interested, I'd really advise you to look at Kamal as work. Very young scholar. But wow, his work is mind blowing. And Matoba Matoba has a chapter in commandos book, what they argue is that the theorizing, and the abstraction, making abstract, the systematization, of indigenous knowledge. And you can say the verticalization, if you're drawing on Bourbon Street, Bernstein, that's what needs to happen. We need African theory, we need African theory, which will travel across contexts. And we need to bring that theory into the university. So camallo and Matoba, argue that that's the task for African scholars for at least the next decade, at least the next decade. So it's not something that we're going to be able to do immediately. It's a huge task. And you can only I can't begin to say in any, you know, sort of rigorous way will lie about how you can proceed, you'd have to go, it would have to be ethnographic research, I think you'd have to go and engage with the healers, as my colleague John Hutchings did at zunar land, you'd have to go and engage there Or you'd have to go and engage with farmers, and so on, and explore through careful questioning, and so on and so on, to try to vertical eyes, this theory. So what I'm arguing is that a stronger and I would say, a more valid approach to the decolonization of the curriculum would involve drawing on indigenous knowledge that has been verticalized, systematized, systematized theorized and abstracted, it will be a completely different kinds of knowledge to the western knowledge, except it will, it will share these features of being able to explain the world across multiple contexts, it will be able to explain the world in the future predict worlds that we don't yet know. But it will do it from a perspective in African knowing.   43:12 But, as I've indicated, camallo argues task for at least the next decade, we're not there yet, by any means. So I'll come to,   43:31 to conclude what I'm saying. But I've got a few more thoughts. And this these sorts relate to work that I've been doing recently, and to a publication that I've been working on, and which is currently under review. So of course, curriculum isn't only the what of content, curriculum is a whole lot of things. It's who's being taught who's teaching, and it's also the how, of pedagogy, the how of teaching and learning. So what I've done so far, is very much focused on the watch of curriculum, because curricula in South African universities were imported, that the model of the even though African universities have existed on African soil for centuries, some of the oldest universities in the world were in Africa, but the so called modern university, it was an import thanks to colonialization. And as the the modern universities supposedly were established, so curriculum also came from the north. And with that importance of the watch the series and so on, you will also got the pedagogy.   44:56 You know, the idea that you've got a lecture   45:00 Standing in front of a class and lecturing, the tutorial system, the so called Oxbridge system of tutorials. Richard wants to draw on that extensively. So the curriculum also includes imported pedagogy. And because of my own background, I'm interested in pedagogy. And I'm interested in what pedagogy does to students. Okay, so here are some ideas. And again, who am I to do this, but some ideas that I think could be pursued in thinking about pedagogy in about decolonizing pedagogy. So, in that there's lots of work which looks at the roots of the so called independent, autonomous, rational thinker in the enlightenment of 16th, and 17th century Europe. And that idea that, you know, ideally, students should be independent, autonomous, rational, applying their logic, that dominates Teaching and Learning in Higher Education. I, if I think back, there's this work that's very popular. That's popular now. But it certainly was 10 years ago, so called approaches to learning research. And researchers identified two approaches to learning, which they call deep approaches and surface approaches, surface approaches involved rote learning, and just trying to remember stuff. Deep approaches involve trying to get to the meaning. And to use logic, and so on, and so on. And, and in those deep approaches where it was worthy, these independent thinkers, you know, and you'll hear academics saying, Oh, I'm not interested in spoon feeding my students or students wants to be spoon fed. Well, lots of those ideas, you can trace back to the privileging of this particular kind of thinking, a particular kind of thinker, or InLight, enlightenment Europe. And of course, that thinker wasn't emotional, you take emotion out of it, you take feeling you take being out of it, it's all about the head. It's about cognition. I think, therefore I am. Now that dominates Teaching and Learning in Higher Education, pedagogy. What would happen, if you d privilege the idea of the autonomous, rational thinker, in favor of understandings of learning as communal, and there's a concept in southern Africa, we've been through, and it means a person is a person through others. So you only gain your personhood through others, through being one with others. Now, many of the students in our universities will be deeply imbued in this concept of Ubuntu, they're very big, will draw on Ubuntu. So so the idea of, you know, excelling, being top of the class, and I am me, and you know, I've got 75%, I've got a first   48:48 you gain your personhood through others. And   48:54 in the struggle against apartheid, you saw some of the Ubuntu thinking coming out in the, in the claim that it we should pass one parcel. It was about the collective pass one pass all so so what would happen if you drew on that understanding of being and therefore of learning as communal?   49:25 I'm not, I'm not claiming to know how to do that. But what if you do   49:30 privilege this decentered this internet, Tom was rational thinker, and you you brought in the idea of being through others? And what would happen if you acknowledge that knowing can be more than cognition? You know, we do have some work in the global Norse, about embodied knowing and so on. But what would happen if you brought that in? Could you Could you build learning theories based on that? I'm beginning to think what I do think that you probably could, I don't know that I can do it or people like me to do it. But I think African scholars could do it. And then one more idea related to pedagogy relates to oracy and literacy. This is something that interests me a lot. So the development of the printing press in Europe eventually led to understandings of meanings as being fixed in a written text, before you got the printing press, press, and you got lots of printed texts, and most meanings were communicated orally. And typically they were communicated in poetry. And poetry has all sorts of devices, which allows it to be remembered, you know, rhyme, mnemonic devices, and so on. So if you go right back and look at, you know, the epic poems, the sagas of the Norseman, and so on, you'll see that leanings about society were communicated through poetry. Now, when you had oral poetry, you'd have a poet reciting. But the recitation would differ, depending on the poet. But that didn't matter. Because the same stories were narrated over and over again. And so the meaning resulted from an interaction between the text recited by the poet and the people in the context. So the meaning was, in the context, not in the text. Once you got the printing press, and the widespread availability of printed text, the belief grew, that the meeting was on the page. I mean, modern linguists wouldn't accept that. But that's the sort of common sense for you, it's there, it's on the page and you extract it from the page. It also the printing press, ultimately also led to the development of so called saps literacy. You know, you see that in the work of people like John Locke, Montaigne, and so on a particular style of writing, and you could track right that right through to writing essays in the university today.   52:38 written forms,   52:40 particularly genres, ways of writing, and you're unlikely to pass unless you can write an essay. And the essay is literacy forms, will inform the writing of theses, even in the sciences,   52:54 and so on. However, we've got lots of work.   53:00 And I've cited golf there. He was actually my PhD student supervisor many years ago. So golf argues that creators of aural genres in South Africa compose original highly complex words as they speak, literally, in the act of speaking, they compose these original, highly complex works. And he gives all sorts of examples, one of which is particularly genre called releasing the widow, which, which is when the brother of a man who's died, releases his widow into the world at some point after the dance, and he analyzes them to show that this is the case. So my question is in relation to pedagogy, can we dissenter literacy in the university and explore the use of oracy in teaching and learning literacy rules, but what would happen if we dissented it? And explored the use of literacy? Can we shift from essays text to other genres to allow for students to draw and literacy practices that they carry into the university? I know that many students write poetry, and I have a geologist, friend at Rhodes University University, who allows his students to use poetry about rocks. And he's teaching I think it's geomorphology.   54:38 Fascinating, what would happen   54:41 if we allowed students to draw on an illiteracy form, which they felt happy with felt confident with   54:52 and we dissented the literacy.   54:53 So these are ideas that only ideas because not only if If you're thinking about decolonization, not only do we have to think about decolonizing, the watch of curriculum content, we also have to think about the how of pedagogy.   55:14 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

In this episode of R, D and the Inbetweens I am talking to Jamie Pei, PhD aka The Messy PhD/The Messy Coach about research, messiness and how we can challenge and subvert the academic system! Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcript   1 00:00:09,220 --> 00:00:13,600 Hello and welcome to RD and the in-betweens.   2 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:26,200 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers, development and everything in between.   3 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:36,130 Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of RD and the in-betweens.   4 00:00:36,130 --> 00:00:41,800 In this episode, I'm delighted to be talking to my friend and colleague Jamie Pei from the Messy Ph.D.   5 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:46,570 Jamie delivers some training sessions on messiness in research on the Research   6 00:00:46,570 --> 00:00:53,620 Development Programme at Exeter and also provides training and coaching for Ph.D. students   7 00:00:53,620 --> 00:01:02,830 and beyond that, through life coaching. In our conversation, we talk about messiness, in research and in life,   8 00:01:02,830 --> 00:01:11,050 and how kind of acknowledging that messiness and sitting with it might subvert some of the   9 00:01:11,050 --> 00:01:17,860 typical kind of problematic cultures and approaches to academia and research in general.   10 00:01:17,860 --> 00:01:26,410 So I'm Jamie Pei. I completed my Ph.D. in women's studies from the University of York.   11 00:01:26,410 --> 00:01:36,730 It feels like such a long time ago, but I officially graduated last year and I am now a life and Ph.D. coach,   12 00:01:36,730 --> 00:01:42,910 and I also do workshops and training for postgraduate researchers.   13 00:01:42,910 --> 00:01:46,210 So I've done some training with you, Kelly, for the University of Exeter,   14 00:01:46,210 --> 00:01:53,080 which I've totally enjoyed, and I'm now working on building out my Ph.D. coaching work.   15 00:01:53,080 --> 00:02:01,720 So part of what's led us to this is that you've done some journalism training for me at the University of Exeter,   16 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:13,330 which has been really popular and I think has really just.. because it's really resonated with the PGR community and   17 00:02:13,330 --> 00:02:22,120 particularly in the way that you approach the, kind of, the research journey and this concept of of messiness.   18 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,450 And I wondered if you could sort of say a little bit about   19 00:02:25,450 --> 00:02:34,270 what this idea that like the messy PHD is and how that evolved in your thinking and in your practise?   20 00:02:34,270 --> 00:02:43,000 Yes. So I guess I'd have to go all the way back to my own Ph.D. and maybe even a little bit before that.   21 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:48,790 So in my previous life, before coming back to academia,   22 00:02:48,790 --> 00:02:55,210 I was a journalist and my last job before coming back into my Ph.D. was in fashion journalism.   23 00:02:55,210 --> 00:03:01,420 I was working for a fashion magazine and everything there is, you know, it has to be perfect, right?   24 00:03:01,420 --> 00:03:06,550 Like, in journalism, there is no room for messiness. There's no room for mistakes, really.   25 00:03:06,550 --> 00:03:16,720 And now I was like, given this world where like no, the messiness is where all the good stuff happens, and that's where things are rich.   26 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:22,280 That's where you get to be curious. That's where the new questions and the new ideas come up.   27 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:29,620 And so that was the research side of it, like the messiness of the actual research.   28 00:03:29,620 --> 00:03:37,990 But the other components to messiness is about the messiness of being a human being   29 00:03:37,990 --> 00:03:42,820 doing the research. You know, there's this..   30 00:03:42,820 --> 00:03:51,580 I think there's this mistaken view that because we are highly qualified and highly educated,   31 00:03:51,580 --> 00:03:55,090 that we know the answers to everything that we've all got to have our shit together   32 00:03:55,090 --> 00:04:02,170 and knowing how to write a good thesis or do good research or be,   33 00:04:02,170 --> 00:04:09,700 you know, be really competent in the labs also means that you know how to perfectly balance your life,   34 00:04:09,700 --> 00:04:15,160 how to be productive, how to stay motivated and all that other stuff that comes with just being human.   35 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,220 But that's not necessarily true.   36 00:04:18,220 --> 00:04:27,820 And so much of the Ph.D journey like my own, as well as my colleagues and all the friends that I met through the course of my Ph.D.,   37 00:04:27,820 --> 00:04:31,780 you know, most people don't struggle with the actual work, right?   38 00:04:31,780 --> 00:04:38,170 Like people know how to do the experimental, how to use SPSS or whatever it is.   39 00:04:38,170 --> 00:04:42,250 People struggle with all the other messy in-betweens.   40 00:04:42,250 --> 00:04:52,210 And that's why I sort of came up with the term messy, because it's stuff that isn't really, can't always be clearly defined,   41 00:04:52,210 --> 00:05:05,050 that there isn't always a clear roadmap too, there almost never is like formal university-led training to deal with this messiness.   42 00:05:05,050 --> 00:05:18,070 Even though that messy, that messy journey, the messy experiences are really what characterise a lot of people's doctoral journey and experience.   43 00:05:18,070 --> 00:05:19,390 And I can go into that a little bit more.   44 00:05:19,390 --> 00:05:28,540 I can talk about this forever, but really, it's things like the emotional fallout struggling with work life balance,   45 00:05:28,540 --> 00:05:39,610 the feelings of imposter syndrome, fear of failure, deep insecurity that you're not good enough and that can prevail all the way through the Ph.D.   46 00:05:39,610 --> 00:05:49,240 Overwork, the guilt that comes with doing a Ph.D. guilt in terms of always feeling like you should be working more.   47 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:58,660 And even when you're doing perfectly normal, acceptable things like sleep or cook dinner, you're feeling guilty.   48 00:05:58,660 --> 00:06:08,050 The kind of glorification of suffering and the messiness of feeling like my Ph.D. is not worthy   49 00:06:08,050 --> 00:06:13,960 or I am not worthy unless I'm suffering and how to kind of deal with those sorts of emotions.   50 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:22,780 So I'm not by any means a trained mental health professional or a therapist or anything like that.   51 00:06:22,780 --> 00:06:28,540 But these are things that I've worked through a lot in my own life, not just in the Ph.D.   52 00:06:28,540 --> 00:06:36,370 Beyond that as well, and is something that I started to identify a lot in the trainings that I was doing   53 00:06:36,370 --> 00:06:42,220 in the kind of peer led workshops that I was running while I was still doing my Ph.D.   54 00:06:42,220 --> 00:06:45,430 You know, people, people are coming in to trainings.   55 00:06:45,430 --> 00:06:53,530 And yes, you know, the initial concerns might be, how do I write a lit review or how do I organise my references?   56 00:06:53,530 --> 00:07:01,300 But actually given time and space and all the other messy things come up where people are like, Oh, I'm feeling like I'm behind.   57 00:07:01,300 --> 00:07:06,350 I constantly feel like I'm not good enough, and all these other things come up.   58 00:07:06,350 --> 00:07:15,760 I'm feeling really validated and reassured to have their experience represented because I think two things really stuck out for me   59 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,320 on what you were saying first is that,   60 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:26,510 You know, I often say the kind of people that end up doing a Ph.D or research degree of some kind are people that have been,   61 00:07:26,510 --> 00:07:30,740 in some sense, high achievers. Yeah, for sure.   62 00:07:30,740 --> 00:07:40,010 throughout their academic career and are perfectionists and highly critical and these are the things that make us really good at research.   63 00:07:40,010 --> 00:07:47,450 And in some ways, they make us good at research, but bad at being researchers in the sense that..   64 00:07:47,450 --> 00:07:59,360 it begets the, kind of, some of the messiness that you're talking about and the imposter syndrome and the feeling everything needs to be fixed and   65 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:06,180 plan-able and clearly laid out, and it's just not that.   66 00:08:06,180 --> 00:08:12,710 Yeah, yeah, and it' also that discomfort with the messiness, you know,   67 00:08:12,710 --> 00:08:23,060 because we are perfectionists and we like to have full control over how things are going to turn out and how we envisage things to be   68 00:08:23,060 --> 00:08:32,690 and how we envisage ourselves to be as we're doing that research and the nature of research is that it necessarily needs to be messy,   69 00:08:32,690 --> 00:08:38,810 right? Like, if it wasn't messy, if we did know everything and we could control everything,   70 00:08:38,810 --> 00:08:45,560 and then there wouldn't be the need to do the research right? because we would already know everything.   71 00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:57,530 Yeah. So it's like learning to be OK with the fact that things are not perfect and actually to see that messiness as a resource.   72 00:08:57,530 --> 00:08:59,930 And that's something I always talk about.   73 00:08:59,930 --> 00:09:09,290 Like, I always say that the magic is in the mess, and I know that sounds like such a sort of almost like Disney-fied woowoo thing to say,   74 00:09:09,290 --> 00:09:20,270 but especially in research, you know, so much good stuff comes out of not knowing or of confusion or initial confusion.   75 00:09:20,270 --> 00:09:28,820 And, you know, the not being in full control of things because that's where your data is telling you things or, you know,   76 00:09:28,820 --> 00:09:37,100 you're struck by new methods or new ideas or perspectives that you might not otherwise have thought of if you'd followed that plan exactly   77 00:09:37,100 --> 00:09:45,450 and perfectly. Exactly, and as someone that comes from, kind of, from an artistic background,   78 00:09:45,450 --> 00:09:52,150 that kind of idea of the knowledge and the productiveness and all the good things coming from the mess really,   79 00:09:52,150 --> 00:09:59,420 really speaks to the kind of artist training in me because, you know..   80 00:09:59,420 --> 00:10:06,140 That yeah, that is how we create new knowledge and new understanding, it is from the messy and with the unknown and from the discomfort.   81 00:10:06,140 --> 00:10:17,120 But it's not something that we are trained to deal with in life, let alone in research, you know, if you think about just,   82 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,880 you know, with my head on and kind of the British education system from a young age,   83 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:27,470 you're taught to put everything in boxes and everything's kind of measurable and neat, even though it's not.   84 00:10:27,470 --> 00:10:31,490 And no wonder we get young people coming to university and, you know,   85 00:10:31,490 --> 00:10:35,630 as undergraduates and postgraduates who kind of don't know how to deal with the mess and the   86 00:10:35,630 --> 00:10:41,690 discomfort because all we've done is try to kind of teach them that the world is not like that.   87 00:10:41,690 --> 00:10:45,490 Yeah. You know, this comes also of like,   88 00:10:45,490 --> 00:11:00,040 capitalist, patriarchal, colonised cultures, right where, you know, productivity is king, success, self-made success,   89 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:10,340 all that, the drive being productive, being successful, being entrepreneurial and all that, that is prized above everything else.   90 00:11:10,340 --> 00:11:15,010 So I think a lot of us, myself included, you know, when I talk about all this,   91 00:11:15,010 --> 00:11:19,540 I'm not talking about PGRs and Ph.D students as something separate from me.   92 00:11:19,540 --> 00:11:25,360 I absolutely went through all of this myself and I still do, like, not as a Ph.D. student now.   93 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:32,710 It's just the bar has just moved somewhere else now that I'm starting my own online coaching stuff.   94 00:11:32,710 --> 00:11:40,870 But there's this idea that like, you know, the whole Ph.D journey rests on what you produce at the end of it, right?   95 00:11:40,870 --> 00:11:46,720 Like, everything hinges on that thesis.   96 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:51,730 The viva. What you have produced.   97 00:11:51,730 --> 00:12:00,430 But there's something huge that my supervisor also said to me midway through my Ph.D., which was, she said, you know,   98 00:12:00,430 --> 00:12:08,950 you're not just being assessed on what you're researching, you're actually being, especially as a as a Ph.D. student.   99 00:12:08,950 --> 00:12:20,110 And we are I know that we kind of rail against the term student because we want to be sort of regarded as sort of higher up the chain or whatever.   100 00:12:20,110 --> 00:12:25,690 But ultimately, we are still students. We are in an educational programme.   101 00:12:25,690 --> 00:12:37,460 And part of that education and that assessment is, it's not just assessing what we're producing, it's assessing how we're doing that research.   102 00:12:37,460 --> 00:12:41,980 And I think that is a huge element that isn't emphasised enough.   103 00:12:41,980 --> 00:12:45,940 And, you know, I was really fortunate that my, like I said,   104 00:12:45,940 --> 00:12:56,000 my supervisor loved messiness and that kind of creative discomfort and figuring out the 'how' of doing that research throughout the process.   105 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:04,000 So, you know, that was very much built into the way that she supervised me and guided me through those three or four years.   106 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:10,990 But I think a lot of people don't get that, you know, everyone's just got their eye on like the final product.   107 00:13:10,990 --> 00:13:18,790 I have to produce a perfect piece of research where my results match my hypothesis or whatever,   108 00:13:18,790 --> 00:13:24,580 where I can answer my research questions perfectly and everything matches up.   109 00:13:24,580 --> 00:13:28,840 Nothing must ever go wrong because then it shows I failed as a researcher,   110 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:35,830 but actually examiners, supervisors, they're expecting things to fail, right?   111 00:13:35,830 --> 00:13:40,780 Like, they know that research is messy. They know that research is unpredictable. Shit happens.   112 00:13:40,780 --> 00:13:45,010 There's a pandemic in the world or whatever, machinery breaks down.   113 00:13:45,010 --> 00:13:55,180 People leave things in the lab overnight and electricity goes off, whatever. And it's not, like, what happens, like, what results you get,   114 00:13:55,180 --> 00:14:03,610 what the thesis is, is not as important as how you're responding at each stage of that research,   115 00:14:03,610 --> 00:14:09,910 what you're doing, what decisions you're taking and how you're justifying those decisions.   116 00:14:09,910 --> 00:14:15,760 And that, I think, I see now now that looking back and now that I've had some distance from it, you know,   117 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:26,740 like how you're doing the research and how you are as a researcher really is more important than what it is that you are producing.   118 00:14:26,740 --> 00:14:34,870 Does that make sense? It absolutely makes sense that it really feeds into, kind of, my approach to research development,   119 00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:38,530 which is, you know, there's the elements of, we do of research development,   120 00:14:38,530 --> 00:14:45,820 which are about developing the research and your ability to do the research, that actually the whole kind of concept behind,   121 00:14:45,820 --> 00:14:51,190 you know, research development framework is looking at the researcher in a holistic fashion.   122 00:14:51,190 --> 00:14:58,930 And I think sometimes because, you know, we're so focussed on getting students through in x number of years and all that sort of   123 00:14:58,930 --> 00:15:04,120 stuff that we forget that actually it's the researcher that we're developing.   124 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:09,970 And I'm really reminded in what you're saying about, say, Pat Thompson from Nottingham.   125 00:15:09,970 --> 00:15:18,590 I wrote this blog post once about and it really, really stood out for me about how the thesis is a representation of the research.   126 00:15:18,590 --> 00:15:28,020 It's a narrative that you're curating for a particular audience, and it has to be   127 00:15:28,020 --> 00:15:37,370 linear and well-structured and   128 00:15:37,370 --> 00:15:44,740 you know, a kind of, Logical argument that develops and all this, all those sorts of things, but that's not what research is like.   129 00:15:44,740 --> 00:15:47,060 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.   130 00:15:47,060 --> 00:15:57,050 At the end of it, you have to produce this document which has this linearity and coherency that the research process just does not.   131 00:15:57,050 --> 00:16:04,000 And so, you know, then the representation of the thing that we hold up at the end of it,   132 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:10,820 that we examine, isn't necessarily the thing that's actually reflective of what the process of doing it is like,   133 00:16:10,820 --> 00:16:15,610 and I always thought that was really interesting and a really interesting way to think about writing   134 00:16:15,610 --> 00:16:18,640 your thesis is actually, you know,   135 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:25,480 you're telling the story of you doing this research and you're constructing it for your examiner as an audience.   136 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:33,910 Mm hmm. And so you need to kind of step away from what it felt like to do it almost and think about how to kind of look at it from the outside.   137 00:16:33,910 --> 00:16:43,470 Yeah, there is this definitely that kind of disjuncture between the living research and that process of it.   138 00:16:43,470 --> 00:16:52,960 And the telling of it, you know, in a way that's going to tick the boxes to pass the Ph.D. as well.   139 00:16:52,960 --> 00:17:04,620 And for me personally, my experience of the research couldn't really be divorced from, like, the how couldn't really be divorced from the what.   140 00:17:04,620 --> 00:17:09,480 And there was a time that I was thinking a lot about actually changing my thesis   141 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:15,780 to be more focussed on the methodology of it and the kind of epistemology behind it,   142 00:17:15,780 --> 00:17:22,440 because researcher reflexivity and all that kind of thing was really important to me.   143 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:32,040 And in the final version of the thesis, I think does leave out a lot that is potentially more interesting,   144 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:40,200 I think, and more rich because it's really about how I did the research and how I grew as a researcher.   145 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:46,480 But obviously, like, that's not necessarily what examiners want. So that's another messy thing as well.   146 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:55,170 You know, the story that you want to tell and that you've lived through your research and what it is that you are telling your researcher?   147 00:17:55,170 --> 00:18:00,480 That's a whole other topic, though I think. And the thing is as well,   148 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:07,770 the other thing that's part of messiness is like, I think a lot of PGRs I come across feel this that, you know,   149 00:18:07,770 --> 00:18:16,590 we feel like we're the only person in the world who doesn't know what they're doing and everybody else has their shit together.   150 00:18:16,590 --> 00:18:21,570 And I'm always saying, like, literally nobody else does any fucking clue what they're doing either.   151 00:18:21,570 --> 00:18:25,230 Everybody is just figuring it out.   152 00:18:25,230 --> 00:18:30,630 This is part of being, it's a being human thing. It's not a research thing or an academic thing.   153 00:18:30,630 --> 00:18:34,990 It's just part of being human being, right? Yeah, absolutely.   154 00:18:34,990 --> 00:18:43,150 And that's why I think the, kind of, the work that you're doing and the route that you're taking, it just really, really resonates really,   155 00:18:43,150 --> 00:18:47,880 really speaks to me in terms of my experience because it is.. what you've kind   156 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:53,760 of ended up doing is articulating something that I feel like I've lived,   157 00:18:53,760 --> 00:19:01,550 and not really known how to pass on to people, I've talked to a little bit about my kind of,   158 00:19:01,550 --> 00:19:07,250 about my journey and the kind of intersections of my professional and personal lives.   159 00:19:07,250 --> 00:19:17,150 But yeah, just, I think the kind of, the work that you're doing, the messy Ph.D. and the intersection of research and life coaching..   160 00:19:17,150 --> 00:19:26,070 Just really speaks to what my experience has been like working in higher education, I guess.   161 00:19:26,070 --> 00:19:33,330 Yeah, I just, I kind of, and I rant about this on Twitter a lot, I say, you know,   162 00:19:33,330 --> 00:19:41,610 you could have the most perfect sweep of training and workshops for your Ph.D. community,   163 00:19:41,610 --> 00:19:48,540 like, how to write the Ph.D., you know, workshops on academic writing, on software, on data management,   164 00:19:48,540 --> 00:19:53,950 all of that, but it wouldn't matter at all.   165 00:19:53,950 --> 00:20:03,720 Like, not a single bit, if the person is a mess, you know, and what else is going on in their life is a mess.   166 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:08,910 You know, you need to sort that out first, and in most instances,   167 00:20:08,910 --> 00:20:16,670 Ph.D. students are highly intelligent, highly capable people, like, doing the work is not the problem.   168 00:20:16,670 --> 00:20:23,900 It's everything else that is around the work that usually is the problem, right?   169 00:20:23,900 --> 00:20:32,630 And also, you know, like you say, just because you are an intelligent person doesn't mean you instinctively know how to navigate   170 00:20:32,630 --> 00:20:39,920 doing a really intense research project alongside a traumatic life event   171 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:44,120 Yes, and not to mention all the other structural things that you're dealing with,   172 00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:55,610 like the racism and the sexism and the ableism and all that you know, that's so endemic and in-built within the academy as well.   173 00:20:55,610 --> 00:21:02,420 Yeah. And then also dealing with the messy nature of research itself, right?   174 00:21:02,420 --> 00:21:11,840 Like, things being unpredictable and dealing with data that goes wrong or pandemics and all this.   175 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,650 And it's it is a huge piece of work for a lot of people that it's going to be the largest   176 00:21:15,650 --> 00:21:21,650 independently done piece of work they've done to up to that point in their life.   177 00:21:21,650 --> 00:21:31,850 And a lot of it's kind of done on your own as well. You know, you're not  necessarily working like you would in a job.   178 00:21:31,850 --> 00:21:36,290 And that's another thing. That's another part of messiness. Is that sense of loneliness, right?   179 00:21:36,290 --> 00:21:42,320 And kind of dealing with that, like how do you figure out your own feelings?   180 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:51,410 How do you fit in with your community? So, yeah, I mean, that's something that I try and address in my coaching as well.   181 00:21:51,410 --> 00:22:00,440 One of the things that I found really palpable in my role in research development is the desire people have to come to me for the answer.   182 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:05,000 Yeah, they want to come to training or they want to come and talk to me because they they think,   183 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,440 Well, you're in this job, so you must have you must have the answer. And then they come to me and I go.   184 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:14,230 Not only do I not have the answer, but there isn't an answer   185 00:22:14,230 --> 00:22:20,860 Yeah, yeah. And it's a really confronting experience for a lot of people.   186 00:22:20,860 --> 00:22:28,500 But why can't you? But why can't you give me the answer? I can't give you an answer that doesn't exist.   187 00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:38,750 Yeah, I feel that so much, yeah. It's really painful in the sense that, you know, people are desperate   188 00:22:38,750 --> 00:22:44,510 for you to give them the answer, not because they are incapable or any of those things,   189 00:22:44,510 --> 00:22:52,490 but because the system is kind of really rigid and really convincing them that there has to be an answer and there has to be a way.   190 00:22:52,490 --> 00:23:00,290 Then people like me swan in and go, 'no it doesn't really work like that, there isn't a way.'   191 00:23:00,290 --> 00:23:05,090 And that's exactly how it was for me as well with my supervisor, you know,   192 00:23:05,090 --> 00:23:16,340 and needing to know the right answer in a particular way and also needing to have a very rigid structure like,   193 00:23:16,340 --> 00:23:21,380 'Oh, I should be here by now, I should have attained this by now.'   194 00:23:21,380 --> 00:23:23,660 And I remember saying to my supervisor once, like,   195 00:23:23,660 --> 00:23:30,890 I basically need you to chase me around with a stick and make sure that I'm on track and like, beat me   196 00:23:30,890 --> 00:23:35,690 if I haven't submitted things on time. And she was horrified that I said that.   197 00:23:35,690 --> 00:23:41,480 And it really took me almost like two years to really, like   198 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:48,200 It took two years for it to jig that, Oh, you know what, actually, I'm in charge of this completely.   199 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:57,500 I get to call the shots. There isn't a particular way of doing this and only one way of doing this, and I'm actually not reporting to anyone.   200 00:23:57,500 --> 00:24:04,400 This is why it's another weird, messy space because, you know, you're not submitting work to a teacher to assess,   201 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,640 so there isn't a right answer in that way.   202 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:17,310 And up until this point, you know, in most taught degrees, there is some degree of what's the right answer or the right way of doing things.   203 00:24:17,310 --> 00:24:19,400 And then suddenly you're in this space where   204 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:28,660 Like, actually, there's like 981 different ways that you could do this and a potentially infinite number of answers to this.   205 00:24:28,660 --> 00:24:38,870 Yes. So what we're saying is you come into a research degree and you're working with someone who's not your teacher and who's not your boss.   206 00:24:38,870 --> 00:24:45,910 Yeah. Independently for the first time. And so you've got to kind of motivate yourself in a way that you've never had   207 00:24:45,910 --> 00:24:50,950 to before, you're undertaking something where nobody has the answers for you.   208 00:24:50,950 --> 00:24:52,750 You've got to go and find them.   209 00:24:52,750 --> 00:25:04,870 You're used to things being quantifiable and linear and coherent, and things are messy, complicated and throw curve balls at you all the time.   210 00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:10,090 And whilst you're doing this, you need to navigate adulthood and life.   211 00:25:10,090 --> 00:25:14,230 Potentially, you know, if you're going through a conventional route, let's say through the system,   212 00:25:14,230 --> 00:25:20,020 you're encountering adulthood and life and life experiences that you've not had to..   213 00:25:20,020 --> 00:25:29,410 Deal with before. Regardless of when you're doing a Ph.D., you know, you've got you've got to do with life and life events and a global pandemic.   214 00:25:29,410 --> 00:25:36,920 And. Yeah, yeah.   215 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,770 Yeah, it's it's a whole mash up, isn't it? It's..   216 00:25:40,770 --> 00:25:48,360 Kind of figuring out the expectations on top of all this as well, then you know, you were thrust into this community,   217 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:57,870 which is extremely competitive and where there are already these existing narratives of what it means to work hard,   218 00:25:57,870 --> 00:26:04,140 what it means to be successful, what is considered valuable research.   219 00:26:04,140 --> 00:26:11,940 You know, these ideas that infiltrate around 'you should be working all the time' and 'working harder and more hours means you   220 00:26:11,940 --> 00:26:19,920 are a better researcher' and those kinds of horrible myths that kind of get perpetuated and re-perpetuated   221 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:27,300 I really dislike the memes and the jokes on Twitter and on social media that poke fun at,   222 00:26:27,300 --> 00:26:33,240 like, Ph.D. is not having a life and oh, weekends, what are they? and those kinds of things   223 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:38,610 And I get it that people need to blow off steam and and kind of make light of it.   224 00:26:38,610 --> 00:26:45,720 But inadvertently, it does also perpetuate this notion of, you know, this need to constantly work.   225 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:50,790 And then therefore, if you're not constantly working, if you're not struggling,   226 00:26:50,790 --> 00:26:56,580 if you're actually finding your Ph.D. quite enjoyable, then there's this idea that maybe you're doing something wrong.   227 00:26:56,580 --> 00:26:58,320 So like on top of, you know,   228 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:08,490 figuring out what it means to be a grown up in the world and surviving in the pandemic and learning a new way of working and researching and studying.   229 00:27:08,490 --> 00:27:16,800 On top of that, all of this is happening within this extremely competitive, highly pressurised environment,   230 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:26,580 and you have to navigate that as well and set your boundaries within that space as well.   231 00:27:26,580 --> 00:27:30,240 And it's, you know, it sounds so easy, right? Like just set boundaries.   232 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,390 Just say no. But what,   233 00:27:33,390 --> 00:27:41,880 What 'say no' for one person will look very different to what, you know, 'say no' is for somebody else and what those boundaries are.   234 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:48,930 Nobody can decide them for you. You have to decide them for yourself. And that's hard to work through sometimes.   235 00:27:48,930 --> 00:27:52,740 Yeah, it's not a case of 'say yes to this, say no to that,   236 00:27:52,740 --> 00:27:57,470 say yes to this' You know, it's not a tick box exercise.   237 00:27:57,470 --> 00:28:05,860 Yes, absolutely not, and it's going to vary, you could be on the same project team in the same department with the same PI.   238 00:28:05,860 --> 00:28:18,710 And your boundaries will still look vastly different, right, from that other person. Because we are different people and our lives are different and..   239 00:28:18,710 --> 00:28:25,410 And therefore, our boundaries are always going to be different.   240 00:28:25,410 --> 00:28:32,040 Yeah, yeah, I mean, this goes for everything, right? And not just the Ph.D.   241 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:41,790 Yeah, and that's another thing as well, you know, this tendency to compare that 'so-and-so is further ahead than me..   242 00:28:41,790 --> 00:28:48,780 they're doing better than me. They've presented at more conferences than me' and realising that like, you know,   243 00:28:48,780 --> 00:28:57,840 as well as having different life boundaries, people's research boundaries, people's research topics and how they're doing   244 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:06,180 their research varies tremendously as well. Like, it literally is like comparing.. it's not just even comparing apples and oranges,   245 00:29:06,180 --> 00:29:10,750 it's like comparing a bowl of fruit with a packet of biscuits, right?   246 00:29:10,750 --> 00:29:13,820 Like, completely different. You know,   247 00:29:13,820 --> 00:29:22,380 and we compare ourselves using these unfair measurements and then we beat ourselves up for it when they're actually just not accurate at all.   248 00:29:22,380 --> 00:29:27,570 And then we get ourselves into more mess, right? Because then our boundaries are even more blurred.   249 00:29:27,570 --> 00:29:33,720 Yeah, exactly. And you just end up going around in these vicious circles.   250 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:39,180 And then, you know, like we're saying earlier then that perpetuates itself amongst the people that we're   251 00:29:39,180 --> 00:29:43,710 teaching or supporting or that are just kind of looking at us as role models,   252 00:29:43,710 --> 00:29:49,430 even though we might not, you know, be intentionally kind of   253 00:29:49,430 --> 00:29:55,490 framing ourselves in that way, but looking at us and going, 'oh yeah, that's how you do it, that's that's how it's supposed to be.'   254 00:29:55,490 --> 00:30:00,870 Yeah, but even the person who looks like they know   255 00:30:00,870 --> 00:30:10,500 how it's supposed to be, has probably stumbled upon that by mistake or there's something going on behind the scenes, you know, like swans, right?   256 00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:15,680 I always think of researchers like swans, like you look like you gliding along really elegantly,   257 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:23,580 but you're paddling like crazy under the bottom. And then everyone around you goes, 'Well, they can do it without..   258 00:30:23,580 --> 00:30:32,910 Without struggling or without it being difficult. So why can't I?' and we get into this kind of..   259 00:30:32,910 --> 00:30:34,370 Yeah.   260 00:30:34,370 --> 00:30:45,250 Yeah, that's something that I really want to try and normalise as well with my work, is to tell those stories of failure or falling flat or like..   261 00:30:45,250 --> 00:30:52,180 Exactly, I like to do in my training, I always like to do the kind of, there's always a moment where we go:   262 00:30:52,180 --> 00:30:58,000 And now we're going to learn from past Kelly's mistakes. I love that.   263 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:05,200 And just kind of, yeah, these are all of the way, you know, because I think sometimes as well when we're doing training it,   264 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:12,250 it does appear like we've we've got the answers and we know how things should be done and we know how, you know, it's important to take breaks.   265 00:31:12,250 --> 00:31:20,160 And I talk constantly about how important it is to take breaks, I don't take breaks, like, I'm not good at that.   266 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:25,020 Yeah, yeah, I feel you. I still, if I am taking a break, I'm sat there feeling guilty.   267 00:31:25,020 --> 00:31:30,690 Yup, yup. The break I had today was going and hanging the washing on the line.   268 00:31:30,690 --> 00:31:36,990 That's not a break. Yeah, no, that's still doing something, isn't it?   269 00:31:36,990 --> 00:31:44,400 You know, and also, I think just because as well, just because you know how you should be doing something doesn't mean that..   270 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:50,490 You are doing it that way, or that it's easy or that you can do it that way all of the time.   271 00:31:50,490 --> 00:31:55,380 You know, practising what you preach is actually really, really difficult.   272 00:31:55,380 --> 00:32:02,010 And so I think it's like that sense of being open about failure is really important because you're like,   273 00:32:02,010 --> 00:32:05,430 well, actually, you know, it might seem like, I know the right way.   274 00:32:05,430 --> 00:32:11,010 I know a lot of good ways of doing things.   275 00:32:11,010 --> 00:32:18,930 I know how I should approach something, or how I could, but that doesn't mean that I do it like that all the time or even at all.   276 00:32:18,930 --> 00:32:27,960 Yeah. Or you know, the reason that I teach the things that I teach is because I spent four years not doing them.   277 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:33,420 And then now looking back, I'm like 'that's what I should have done.'   278 00:32:33,420 --> 00:32:45,200 And therefore don't, kind of, shame yourself for not doing the thing that you know is right for you.   279 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:51,200 Don't shame yourself for getting it wrong or for..   280 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:56,380 Sitting at a computer all day or working too late, you know.. You haven't failed.   281 00:32:56,380 --> 00:32:59,350 It's, you know, it's creating another sense of failure in a way, you know,   282 00:32:59,350 --> 00:33:07,800 you haven't failed if you don't achieve that or you don't kind of embody those principles.   283 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:15,660 Yeah, because there is no.. to say that you failed then indicates that there is a right way of doing it, right?   284 00:33:15,660 --> 00:33:23,190 So you fail because you haven't done it the right way. But then there is no right way, right?   285 00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:28,530 And it's really kind of about figuring out what's right for you. And this is something I talk about a lot as well.   286 00:33:28,530 --> 00:33:33,510 Like finding your own work groove. That's another big thing.   287 00:33:33,510 --> 00:33:42,180 You know, a huge thing of feeling like we failed is because we feel, 'oh my goodness, I haven't worked 40 hours a week,   288 00:33:42,180 --> 00:33:54,320 I'm not at my desk from nine to five. I'm in the lab, but I only did two two hours out of the six hours I was there', whatever.   289 00:33:54,320 --> 00:34:03,290 And it's really about: it took me almost four years, I didn't really get this until maybe the very last year of my Ph.D.,   290 00:34:03,290 --> 00:34:08,300 and that is: so for the first four years I kept trying to be a morning person, right?   291 00:34:08,300 --> 00:34:17,270 So I kept saying, 'OK, I've got to be up at eight and get to my office and get a full day's worth of writing in it.'   292 00:34:17,270 --> 00:34:21,410 And every single day I'd wake up at like 11 and be like, 'Oh, I failed again.'   293 00:34:21,410 --> 00:34:26,030 Like, I didn't do the eight o'clock thing, right? And I did this for four years.   294 00:34:26,030 --> 00:34:30,920 And finally, like towards the end, I was like, You know what? I'm just not a morning person.   295 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:37,610 My work groove is to start after 11:00, and that's OK, you know?   296 00:34:37,610 --> 00:34:43,910 And that's maybe not the right way for someone else, but it is absolutely the right way for me.   297 00:34:43,910 --> 00:34:48,110 Yeah. So then you're setting yourself up to not fail, right?   298 00:34:48,110 --> 00:34:54,470 Because you're finding out what's going to work for you and what's going to be right for you.   299 00:34:54,470 --> 00:34:59,750 Yes. I wonder if just to finish, if you could..   300 00:34:59,750 --> 00:35:07,520 If you could capture the philosophy of the messy Ph.D. and the work   301 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:12,650 that you're doing in, like, a little soundbite or a sentence or..   302 00:35:12,650 --> 00:35:18,950 you know, whatever you want to call it, what's the core of it for you?   303 00:35:18,950 --> 00:35:28,010 If somebody listens to this podcast, which will be edited down from the hour and 45 minutes we've been talking for..   304 00:35:28,010 --> 00:35:34,400 however long this podcast ends up being, if somebody listens to the whole thing, what's the one thing that you want them to leave   305 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:40,670 Listening to this with. I think it would be..   306 00:35:40,670 --> 00:35:46,220 And I mentioned this earlier. It's to find the magic in the mess.   307 00:35:46,220 --> 00:35:53,870 And what I mean by that is not to discard messiness, whatever that might mean for you.   308 00:35:53,870 --> 00:36:00,410 It's not to discard it or overlook it, or even to try to fix it or to gloss over it,   309 00:36:00,410 --> 00:36:07,610 but to use that messiness as a resource and to find the magic within that mess.   310 00:36:07,610 --> 00:36:13,040 There's usually something within that messiness that can tell you something helpful and creative,   311 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:18,220 both for your research as well as for life in general.   312 00:36:18,220 --> 00:36:22,960 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe.   313 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:50,063 And join me next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

In this episode of R, D and the Inbetweens I am talking to Dr. Simon Clark - University of Exeter PhD graduate, Youtuber and author of Firmament: The Hidden Science of Weather, Climate Change and the Air That Surrounds Us. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcript 1 00:00:09,220 --> 00:00:13,600 Hello and welcome to R, D and the in-betweens. 2 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:26,200 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:36,190 , and welcome to the latest episode of R&D in the In-betweens. 4 00:00:36,190 --> 00:00:42,460 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and in this episode, I'm going to be talking to one of the University of Exeter's doctoral graduates, 5 00:00:42,460 --> 00:00:50,560 Dr Simon Clarke, about his experience setting up a wildly successful YouTube channel during his PhD. 6 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:58,900 And all of the science communication work he's gone on to do afterwards, and in particular, the publication of his first book Firmament. 7 00:00:58,900 --> 00:01:06,610 So my name is Simon Clarke. I am a full time professional nerd, and I mostly express that through making YouTube videos. 8 00:01:06,610 --> 00:01:11,690 So I have been running a YouTube channel about various topics in science, mostly Earth science, 9 00:01:11,690 --> 00:01:17,500 particular focus on climate change since I graduated with my Ph.D. in 2018. 10 00:01:17,500 --> 00:01:24,310 I had to think that because it's been actually quite a few years and I also do a variety of other things, I do a bit of livestreaming on Twitch. 11 00:01:24,310 --> 00:01:31,630 I have a podcast and recently I wrote a book called Firmament, which is an introduction to and history of atmospheric science. 12 00:01:31,630 --> 00:01:37,450 I guess the starting point for me is about how you became interested in what led you to 13 00:01:37,450 --> 00:01:43,660 become a professional nerd and particularly in times of kind of science communication. 14 00:01:43,660 --> 00:01:49,940 What was the route that takes you from kind of being a researcher and doing a Ph.D. to what you're doing now? 15 00:01:49,940 --> 00:01:52,180 How did that? How did that evolve? 16 00:01:52,180 --> 00:02:01,900 Well, it's something that sort of spon kind of spontaneously happened over a long period of time in that I so when I was a kid, 17 00:02:01,900 --> 00:02:07,180 I used to want to be a film director like I was obsessed with cinema and the moving image and stuff like that. 18 00:02:07,180 --> 00:02:12,280 And so I ended up doing science because that was sort of what I felt like was a 19 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:18,670 responsible thing to do societally and financially and ended up doing my undergrad. 20 00:02:18,670 --> 00:02:22,630 And did my PhD? But when I was in my undergrad, I had this opportunity. 21 00:02:22,630 --> 00:02:29,740 I thought to make video content that would be worthwhile because I was a state school kid. 22 00:02:29,740 --> 00:02:35,800 I went to a comprehensive school just outside Bristol, and when I applied to study physics at Oxford, 23 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:41,410 I was the only no one from my school had ever done that before. No one had ever gone to Oxford to study physics. 24 00:02:41,410 --> 00:02:45,610 And so I had loads of questions about how the process works. 25 00:02:45,610 --> 00:02:52,120 You know, what were the interviews like? Did you have to speak Latin to get in? Did you have to have a parent who'd been to Oxford to go there? 26 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:57,910 And I just didn't know, you know, these are for someone who's been there. These are silly questions, but I didn't know any better. 27 00:02:57,910 --> 00:03:08,680 So when I when I got in, I realised that I had something of a valuable perspective as somebody who could help the student I was a year ago. 28 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:13,090 So when I spent a term at Oxford and I'd seen what life was like, 29 00:03:13,090 --> 00:03:20,140 and I'd also seen the admissions process from the other side of the coin, I just made one video about what that was like. 30 00:03:20,140 --> 00:03:25,930 You know, what life is like in Oxford and advice to people who were applying. And that was I thought I'd be done. 31 00:03:25,930 --> 00:03:32,260 And then it hit the big time and it got like a hundred views, and I thought that maybe I could do another one because I've lots of people in the comments. 32 00:03:32,260 --> 00:03:38,950 You could, you know who had other questions. So I did another video a couple of months later and then another one and another one, 33 00:03:38,950 --> 00:03:44,410 and I gradually fell into this thing about just these sorts of becoming the internet version of a of a 34 00:03:44,410 --> 00:03:51,730 movie director in in that I was making my own short films and it was something that I carried on in the. 35 00:03:51,730 --> 00:03:57,760 And I eventually ended up doing a series where I was vlogging my life as a Ph.D. student, 36 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:05,710 and that was something that was very deliberately as a an exercise in science communication and in outreach. 37 00:04:05,710 --> 00:04:08,110 It was trying to show what the process of doing a PhD was like, 38 00:04:08,110 --> 00:04:13,270 but also what I was doing in my research and sort of telling people about the field that I was really interested in. 39 00:04:13,270 --> 00:04:18,850 And that got to the point where towards the basically in the final year of the Ph.D., 40 00:04:18,850 --> 00:04:26,980 I sort of weighed up my options and thought to myself, You know, I think I could do this as a full time thing. 41 00:04:26,980 --> 00:04:32,740 It wasn't at the point where financially that was anywhere near possible. Like, I was not earning very much at all then. 42 00:04:32,740 --> 00:04:37,990 But I thought that with a with a sort of a year of concerted effort and a little bit of luck, 43 00:04:37,990 --> 00:04:43,900 I could maybe do this as a job and it wasn't so much a deliberate choice that I've made 44 00:04:43,900 --> 00:04:49,390 thinking it would be successful as an opportunity that I thought I would regret not taking. 45 00:04:49,390 --> 00:04:55,960 So I ended up doing it, you know, giving it a go after the Ph.D. and ended up, you know, where I am now. 46 00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:00,590 But in terms of why I didn't want to stay in academia and I wanted to do that. 47 00:05:00,590 --> 00:05:08,780 Sci comm media production, basically, I thought I didn't have necessarily the best time in my Ph.D., 48 00:05:08,780 --> 00:05:14,060 I didn't have the best working relationship with my supervisor because it's the first time 49 00:05:14,060 --> 00:05:18,200 I did a Ph.D. I didn't really know what that relationship was supposed to look like. 50 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:25,430 And so we didn't, you know, get publications out. We basically had to scrape together a thesis at the end of the process. 51 00:05:25,430 --> 00:05:26,630 There was enough science that had been done, 52 00:05:26,630 --> 00:05:33,650 but it was just so disjointed and all over the place and stop start that we sort of had to compile it all together into a thesis at the end. 53 00:05:33,650 --> 00:05:36,410 But that meant that I felt whether this was accurate or not. 54 00:05:36,410 --> 00:05:41,660 But I felt at the time that I didn't have the option to go into academia because I didn't have those publications. 55 00:05:41,660 --> 00:05:45,170 But more than that, I just wasn't really having a good time. 56 00:05:45,170 --> 00:05:51,470 And it wasn't wasn't something that I was passionate about doing anymore, whereas the video stuff I was, 57 00:05:51,470 --> 00:05:57,470 I was very happily staying up until one or two in the morning editing videos, and it was something that I could really see myself doing. 58 00:05:57,470 --> 00:06:05,300 And I loved that process of coming up with an idea and crafting it and making it your own video And in that video, 59 00:06:05,300 --> 00:06:09,290 doing some teaching, because that's that's fundamentally sort of how I think about my content. 60 00:06:09,290 --> 00:06:14,660 You've got a learning objective. You have some educational objective that you want to try and achieve, 61 00:06:14,660 --> 00:06:19,370 and you craft a video to try and maximise the probability of your audience reaching that objective. 62 00:06:19,370 --> 00:06:23,820 And that's a process that I really enjoyed then and I still enjoy doing now. 63 00:06:23,820 --> 00:06:27,860 So, you know, I have no plans to stop doing this. Amazing. 64 00:06:27,860 --> 00:06:32,780 And I think it's it's and I find this with a lot of people. 65 00:06:32,780 --> 00:06:41,020 I talk to about what they've gone on to do after PhDs or research degrees is there's this kind of. 66 00:06:41,020 --> 00:06:47,690 Accidental, or is this kind of serendipity, I guess, of following various interests, 67 00:06:47,690 --> 00:06:52,420 various parts of their lives and then that kind of coalescing into a career, 68 00:06:52,420 --> 00:06:58,750 which it's done really beautifully for you. it's something that my dad calls proactive serendipity. 69 00:06:58,750 --> 00:07:03,670 Oh, I like that where you're, you know, it's very lucky that I've been in this position, 70 00:07:03,670 --> 00:07:07,000 but I was only able to be lucky because I've put sort of all of the work in before, 71 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:12,460 and I've made hundreds and hundreds of videos before I turned full time, so I had the skills built up. 72 00:07:12,460 --> 00:07:15,560 But you know, at the end of the day, it still takes. 73 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:20,050 It's the whole 99 percent perspiration 1% inspiration thing like it's it's lots and lots of work, 74 00:07:20,050 --> 00:07:24,490 but you do need that break that you do that that bit of luck in order to be successful. 75 00:07:24,490 --> 00:07:29,830 And that's the bit that you just have to try and maximise the probability of, but is out of your control. 76 00:07:29,830 --> 00:07:36,650 So thinking about kind of. You know, you you you said when you were kind of in the final year, 77 00:07:36,650 --> 00:07:41,720 you were making a little kind of a little bit of money from it and not anything kind of, you know, to live on or anything. 78 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:50,870 But how how did you go about thinking and turning that into effectively a business and a job for yourself? 79 00:07:50,870 --> 00:07:56,840 I mean, I'm not the kind of kid who who grew up wanting to be a CEO. 80 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:02,000 I was very I was on. I very much am not still business oriented. 81 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,780 So I mean, I personally, my personal opinion is there are two kinds of YouTubers. 82 00:08:05,780 --> 00:08:12,170 There are those who run a business and it happens to be making videos and there are those who make videos and they happen upon it as a business. 83 00:08:12,170 --> 00:08:13,340 And I'm definitely the latter. 84 00:08:13,340 --> 00:08:19,370 I am somebody who just made the content that I thought was interesting and trusted that if I thought it was good enough, 85 00:08:19,370 --> 00:08:24,800 other people would think it was good. And that was something that, you know, I just sort of put all my eggs in that basket, so to speak. 86 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:29,030 And after I finished the PhD, I was like, Right, what are the topics that I find cool? 87 00:08:29,030 --> 00:08:36,980 What are these? What stories that I can tell? And I suppose just blindly trusted that that would eventually turn itself into a job. 88 00:08:36,980 --> 00:08:44,720 And we know that that I think I have been very lucky, but I think also that that is a general something that is true in life, 89 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,050 that if you make stuff that's good, people will come to you. 90 00:08:48,050 --> 00:08:51,110 You don't necessarily have to do all of the the legwork yourself. 91 00:08:51,110 --> 00:08:57,860 You just have to make something that's good and get it out there and eventually think, you know, it may take a while, 92 00:08:57,860 --> 00:09:03,140 but eventually it does get to that audience and that audience then becomes something that you can turn into a business. 93 00:09:03,140 --> 00:09:09,230 But the process that last step is something that has happened almost entirely bungled through. 94 00:09:09,230 --> 00:09:11,760 I'm like the Mr Bean of the business world. 95 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:20,380 It's the things that sort of happened to me, and I've been very lucky, but I have very little kind of wilful kind of agency over it. 96 00:09:20,380 --> 00:09:24,460 Yeah, Mr Bean of the business world is quite quite an image. 97 00:09:24,460 --> 00:09:33,010 So one one of the reasons why I wanted to have a chat with you is about the book that you've written Firmament. 98 00:09:33,010 --> 00:09:37,100 Can you tell me a bit about how 99 00:09:37,100 --> 00:09:44,600 I mean, what the book is about, but also how it came about the for you to write the book, how that opportunity presented itself. 100 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,220 So I in terms of what the book's about first. 101 00:09:48,220 --> 00:09:50,810 So. So the book is it's as I said earlier, 102 00:09:50,810 --> 00:09:56,270 it's an introduction to and it's a history of atmospheric science and those two sort of key components of it, 50 50. 103 00:09:56,270 --> 00:10:03,350 Because when you're learning about atmospheric science in an undergrad or in Ph.D., the emphasis is very much on. 104 00:10:03,350 --> 00:10:07,100 Here are the equations. Here's how you apply them go. 105 00:10:07,100 --> 00:10:13,370 There's there's there's very little historical context and often actually very little scientific context to, 106 00:10:13,370 --> 00:10:16,790 you know, where these things come from, where do these expressions come from? 107 00:10:16,790 --> 00:10:22,190 And when I was an undergrad, my favourite lecture series was Thermal Physics, taught by Stephen Blundell. 108 00:10:22,190 --> 00:10:26,300 And there is one of the reasons it was my favourite, apart from the fact that he was an amazing lecturer, 109 00:10:26,300 --> 00:10:30,380 was that he went on these little historical asides and he filled in that context. 110 00:10:30,380 --> 00:10:33,470 And I don't if it was just me, hopefully not. 111 00:10:33,470 --> 00:10:41,600 But I found that knowing that historical and scientific context to why an expression is the way it is and how we came to know this stuff, 112 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,320 how we know what we know was really useful and really interesting. 113 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:51,830 So when I was when I sort of sat down to work out, you know, if if I were to write a book, what would I want it to be about? 114 00:10:51,830 --> 00:10:53,810 That was very much at the forefront of my mind, 115 00:10:53,810 --> 00:10:59,900 and I designed it to be similar to books that I read when I was in sort of sixth form, an undergraduate. 116 00:10:59,900 --> 00:11:08,720 So books like in such a Schrodinger's Cats or the Elegant Universe, or, you know, if you want to get grandiose like a brief history of time. 117 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:16,910 So something that gets you into interested in a subject but is not necessarily very detailed in terms of the the academic detail. 118 00:11:16,910 --> 00:11:23,780 There's not very many equations, for example, in it, but it's something that sparks your interests or sparks your passion and provides that 119 00:11:23,780 --> 00:11:30,580 historical context because those books exist for physics and chemistry and for biology. 120 00:11:30,580 --> 00:11:36,890 But as far as I could tell, nothing existed for the atmosphere, meaning specifically the atmosphere, 121 00:11:36,890 --> 00:11:42,740 not just weather or not this climate, because there were a couple of books, have been written as sort of a historical introduction to climate change, 122 00:11:42,740 --> 00:11:48,020 like the discovery of global warming by Spencer Weart was quite a big sort of influence on me. 123 00:11:48,020 --> 00:11:51,890 But the atmosphere, specifically the physical system, how we, how we discovered it, 124 00:11:51,890 --> 00:11:55,700 how we understand it, and sort of how that understanding has evolved over time. 125 00:11:55,700 --> 00:11:58,670 Just nobody seemed to have written about for that audience before. 126 00:11:58,670 --> 00:12:04,250 So that was my my goal was to write a personal statement book that kids will say they've read on their personal statement. 127 00:12:04,250 --> 00:12:11,600 Hopefully they have actually read it. And then in terms of how it came to be, I like I said, I sat down and sort of worked out. 128 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,030 If I were to write a book, what would it be about? 129 00:12:14,030 --> 00:12:22,720 And I, I sort of kind of wrote, I suppose, a rough book proposal in it mentally, and I think I must have written it down somewhere that I haven't. 130 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:27,200 I wish I could find that original note, and I set it as a goal of mine. 131 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:32,180 I wanted to write this book and I again the whole proactive serendipitity thing. 132 00:12:32,180 --> 00:12:39,290 I started a book series on my YouTube. I started a series of videos where I talked about books and reviewed what I was reading and suggested 133 00:12:39,290 --> 00:12:46,910 books for people with the explicit intent intention of that being something that a publisher would find. 134 00:12:46,910 --> 00:12:52,760 See me, see my social media profile and think, Oh, this guy's a science person who knows about books and seems to know what they're talking about. 135 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:59,810 Maybe they should write a book and that that was a very explicit goal in my head of having a book playlist on my channel. 136 00:12:59,810 --> 00:13:05,750 And eventually, that was somewhat unbelievably one of my plans actually works, 137 00:13:05,750 --> 00:13:09,980 and I had an email from a publisher, Hodder and Stoughton, and they asked me to come in 138 00:13:09,980 --> 00:13:11,030 And basically, you know, 139 00:13:11,030 --> 00:13:21,830 if I had any ideas for book and I had that proposal basically ready and almost completely unchanged is what we ended up publishing. 140 00:13:21,830 --> 00:13:32,000 That's phenomenal, and I think you know that. You know, that proactive serendipity of going this, this is something that I would like to do this, 141 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:37,550 this is how I can use the work that I'm doing and the platform that I have to perhaps. 142 00:13:37,550 --> 00:13:45,650 Work towards that. Yeah. Maximise the chance of having luck happened to you in a very wishy washy way. 143 00:13:45,650 --> 00:13:50,840 Yeah, but it's it's actually true. I was quite interested in what you were saying about the history and the science, 144 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:56,870 but also kind of thinking about some of the the public speaking training and work that i've done, 145 00:13:56,870 --> 00:14:01,520 particularly with scientists where we're talking about kind of public engagement or science communication. 146 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:10,070 And this there's always this real kind of like really intense fear of dumbing the science down for a lay audience. 147 00:14:10,070 --> 00:14:18,020 And I wondered if you could say a little bit about kind of what it was like writing or, you know, just generally, obviously the science communication, 148 00:14:18,020 --> 00:14:22,550 what you've done about your experience as a as a researcher who's someone who's got that kind of 149 00:14:22,550 --> 00:14:29,990 scientific background doing the more quote unquote popular science or popular communication? 150 00:14:29,990 --> 00:14:37,340 It's tough at the fundamental problem of science. Communication is that balance between content, 151 00:14:37,340 --> 00:14:42,590 meaning having something that is scientifically accurate to the best of our knowledge and is 152 00:14:42,590 --> 00:14:49,370 truthful and weaving a story that people actually wants to listen to or read about or watch. 153 00:14:49,370 --> 00:14:55,970 Because, you know, a perfectly just just reading the IPCC report for the context of climate change, for example, 154 00:14:55,970 --> 00:15:00,860 would probably be a video that I could make that would be the most accurate thing I could possibly produce. 155 00:15:00,860 --> 00:15:05,240 But the problem with that would be nobody would watch it, but maybe some people would. 156 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:12,260 I don't know. Maybe I could do an ASMR reading of the IPCC report just to have the maximum number of acronyms in the title 157 00:15:12,260 --> 00:15:18,320 But it's that's the fundamental challenge, really, and it's something that I've oscillated on over the years, 158 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:24,320 I think, and what I've eventually hit on is you have to pick your battles. 159 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,280 And by that, I mean, you have to pick a level of science capital. 160 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:35,660 So you know, this concept of how into science a person is whether that's through their interest, you know, 161 00:15:35,660 --> 00:15:40,970 in terms of podcasts or videos or whatever it is, but also, you know, degrees that they have and things like that. 162 00:15:40,970 --> 00:15:45,200 And I delight in making stuff for a high science capital audience. 163 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,190 So when I give talks at universities, I can go into, here's this equation I derive. 164 00:15:49,190 --> 00:15:52,430 Let's talk about all the different components and what they mean, and this is applying it to this data. 165 00:15:52,430 --> 00:15:56,630 And this is why this data comes from and these are the problems with it and the assumptions we make and all this kind of stuff. 166 00:15:56,630 --> 00:16:00,440 That's great. I love doing that. But at the same time, 167 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:10,910 I recognise that aiming for that high science capital audience is aiming for a minuscule component of the people that you could be reaching with. 168 00:16:10,910 --> 00:16:17,450 Second. And furthermore, that the goal of talking to them is to raise their science capital. 169 00:16:17,450 --> 00:16:22,790 But you're only going to raise it by a tiny proportion. It's going to be the thinnest sliver on the top of that. 170 00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:25,040 That science capital on the bar graph. 171 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:34,460 Whereas if you aim for a lower science capital audience, you can do more societal good and raise their science capital by far larger proportional. 172 00:16:34,460 --> 00:16:44,810 And honestly, I think absolute value. And so when I am writing stuff, whether that's the book or whether it's videos, I have this audience in mind. 173 00:16:44,810 --> 00:16:50,000 I sort of have this, this learning objective in mind of who needs to know this? 174 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:55,490 And, you know, what do they need to learn? And therefore, what level do I need to pitch this at? 175 00:16:55,490 --> 00:16:59,870 And once I've done that, in a way, the script kind of writes itself. 176 00:16:59,870 --> 00:17:02,090 I don't know if this is because of my training as a physicist, 177 00:17:02,090 --> 00:17:08,270 but that the whole fundamental thing with physics is you neglect information in order to make a system solvable, 178 00:17:08,270 --> 00:17:12,290 like you make assumptions about there being no resistance or friction or whatever it is. 179 00:17:12,290 --> 00:17:16,580 Radial symmetry in order to be able to write an equation that describes what's going on, 180 00:17:16,580 --> 00:17:22,130 and I feel like that happens with me when I'm writing scripts for for for relatively low science 181 00:17:22,130 --> 00:17:29,030 capital audience in that it forces you to strip down to what is the core essential of this topic. 182 00:17:29,030 --> 00:17:35,190 And once you've got that? Making sure that you're not saying anything that actually contradicts the broader picture, 183 00:17:35,190 --> 00:17:42,150 are you saying anything that if you fill in all those other extraneous details and you put air friction resistance and friction back in? 184 00:17:42,150 --> 00:17:47,280 Are you still correct? And that is really the fundamental problem. 185 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:54,900 It's trying to render something down as simply as possible without making sure that you're not contradicting anything in the broader picture. 186 00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:59,880 And the videos, I felt like I've got that down to a reasonable extent. 187 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:06,870 Now I think I'm OK at that with with the book, the benefit was that I had much, much more time to work on it, 188 00:18:06,870 --> 00:18:14,160 like in the writing process for a YouTube video is typically about a week, whereas, you know, the book was about 18 months to two years. 189 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:21,780 And so it really allowed you to write something and stew and look at it as like, OK, now how would a hydrological researcher look at this paragraph? 190 00:18:21,780 --> 00:18:28,020 What would they say and thinking, Oh, actually, yeah, when you look at it from that angle that that particular adjective is probably not quite right, 191 00:18:28,020 --> 00:18:33,270 let's change that to be, you know, rather than significant use substantial or something like that. 192 00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:43,440 So it's something that definitely gets easier the longer you do it, but also gets easier, the more time you have to do it for a given thing. 193 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:49,130 Yeah. So on that on that note about the kind of the time and the process of writing the book, 194 00:18:49,130 --> 00:18:55,920 you said that Hodder and Stoughton got in touch with you through the YouTube series and 195 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,370 what you went for a meeting and you had you had kind of a proposal already. 196 00:18:59,370 --> 00:19:06,960 Can you can you talk a little bit about kind of the process of, I guess, agreeing and doing a formal proposal to write the book? 197 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:12,690 And then also like the big question of what is it like to write a book? 198 00:19:12,690 --> 00:19:16,260 Well, the big question, well, I mean, I'm like, OK, right, that's OK for you, those in order. 199 00:19:16,260 --> 00:19:22,260 So in terms of I went into their offices in London and I met up with my editor iIan Wong who was 200 00:19:22,260 --> 00:19:27,000 very enthusiastic and he knew me from my videos and was obviously very keen to work together. 201 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,620 And he basically said, Have you got any ideas? And I I I tried to low roll. 202 00:19:31,620 --> 00:19:36,660 There's this idea that I've been so stewing for years and years and sort of pitched that. 203 00:19:36,660 --> 00:19:43,920 And basically, we agreed on the day that this is something that's interesting, and I'm pretty sure the publisher would like to go through with this. 204 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,260 What? So I'll send you an email with all the details. 205 00:19:46,260 --> 00:19:52,470 And then I go back home and then got an email from Ian saying, Right, I want you to fill out a proposal and what that is. 206 00:19:52,470 --> 00:19:57,570 And he sort of walked me through and it was basically saying to the publisher, who I am, 207 00:19:57,570 --> 00:20:03,780 why I should be trusted to write a book, what my credentials, why I think people would be interested in this topic. 208 00:20:03,780 --> 00:20:07,170 You know, what's the selling points of the book? And then a writing sample. 209 00:20:07,170 --> 00:20:13,530 So basically, what ended up actually being, I think, almost entirely the introduction chapter of the book. 210 00:20:13,530 --> 00:20:20,850 So it was a couple of thousand words like not very many that allowed them to see what my authorial voice was like. 211 00:20:20,850 --> 00:20:30,660 And I remember I so clearly remember writing that in a Wetherspoons in Bishop's Stortford in Hertfordshire, which is where I lived at the time. 212 00:20:30,660 --> 00:20:32,350 I used to go into towns like do a bit of work, 213 00:20:32,350 --> 00:20:39,510 and there's an image of me with a pint of Diet Coke in the middle of the day and this almost empty Wetherspoons writing this book proposal, 214 00:20:39,510 --> 00:20:41,790 which I eventually finished and sent over. 215 00:20:41,790 --> 00:20:47,250 And there's a brief period of deliberation, like a couple of days and they got back together like, great, we want to green light it. 216 00:20:47,250 --> 00:20:53,190 We're noe going to talk about contracts. And at that point, I realised I probably should have should get myself a literary agent. 217 00:20:53,190 --> 00:21:03,720 And I just so happened to have a friend of mine who had just written a book and you know, it was Andrew Steele. 218 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:05,370 I should probably give him a shout out, actually. 219 00:21:05,370 --> 00:21:12,660 Andrew Steele, who wrote a book called Ageless about the Science of Ageing, and he had a literary agent that heintroduced me to. 220 00:21:12,660 --> 00:21:16,890 And basically, he liked the sound of the project as well. So he agreed to represent me. 221 00:21:16,890 --> 00:21:22,680 And then he spoke to the publishers and we got a contracts hashed out, which we then signed. 222 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,340 And it was basically then right? You've got a year. 223 00:21:26,340 --> 00:21:34,170 I think it was. It wasn't exactly. It was about a year to write this project and that was the start of 2020. 224 00:21:34,170 --> 00:21:38,880 And then everything went tits up and the whole plan. 225 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:46,530 What a time to start? Yeah, it really was. And especially because I got covid quite early on in the pandemic in the first couple of months. 226 00:21:46,530 --> 00:21:50,880 So I immediately I was like, right, I'm like a month behind already. 227 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:55,140 I think we're going to need to realistically change this delivery date. 228 00:21:55,140 --> 00:22:01,290 And and also, it changed how I wanted to write the book because originally my plan was to go to 229 00:22:01,290 --> 00:22:04,920 the Met Office and talk to people in the archives and feature interviews with 230 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:09,870 people and actually put myself into the book a little bit more a bit like how Naomi 231 00:22:09,870 --> 00:22:14,310 Klein does this and some of her her works and sort of be a character as it were. 232 00:22:14,310 --> 00:22:18,720 And that just was not going to happen because travel was just going to be totally impossible. 233 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:26,370 So we ended up pushing the delivery date back a bit, and I just sort of got my head down and started working on it. 234 00:22:26,370 --> 00:22:30,680 I mean, originally, the plan that I had. 235 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:35,870 Was to much like you'd write a paper, I suppose, was to write out all of your research to, 236 00:22:35,870 --> 00:22:39,710 you know, find all these these books for every chapter you're going to write buy a bunch of books, 237 00:22:39,710 --> 00:22:45,820 take notes from each of them, find articles online, find papers, take notes and then coalesce those all together into a chapter. 238 00:22:45,820 --> 00:22:52,350 And I did that for one chapter, and it took me about two or three months. So it was totally unfeasible for the rest of the book. 239 00:22:52,350 --> 00:22:57,560 And so what I ended up doing was more of a kind of rolling road approach of I had a structure. 240 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,220 I knew what was going to go into each chapter and I knew what the big points were going to be in each chapter. 241 00:23:01,220 --> 00:23:06,110 Because at the end of the day, when you writing an introductory text, you know the science that you're talking about. 242 00:23:06,110 --> 00:23:10,130 But what you don't know is all the detail that goes in between. 243 00:23:10,130 --> 00:23:14,690 It's all the historical detail and the fleshing out of characters and little bits of 244 00:23:14,690 --> 00:23:18,110 information that you can drop in here and there that really make the book what it is. 245 00:23:18,110 --> 00:23:29,090 That's the that's what hangs on the skeleton of the science. So I ended up just sort of researching and writing, not immediately writing something. 246 00:23:29,090 --> 00:23:34,550 As soon as you researched it but sort of pulling together a document, pulling together notes and then doing a bit at a time. 247 00:23:34,550 --> 00:23:38,360 And originally, my strategy was I would write for an hour a day. 248 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:42,800 That was my my goal in my notion database for every day, write for one hour. 249 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:50,690 And I found that what happened was I would just sort of open my word document and you'd piddle around for a bit and then go, 250 00:23:50,690 --> 00:23:54,890 Oh, would you look at that? And time was up. I've done my objective and then carry on with the rest of my day. 251 00:23:54,890 --> 00:24:01,040 And it meant I wasn't writing enough, so I switched to writing a certain number of words a day. 252 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:07,970 And originally I think it was 100 words in a day, which is a pitiful writing target, but is very achievable. 253 00:24:07,970 --> 00:24:12,290 So what you and I inevitably did was I would write 100 words and go, Well, 254 00:24:12,290 --> 00:24:18,380 yeah, but I've got the laptop open now, and I felt like kind of in the flow. So I'll just keep going and you end up writing a couple of hundred words. 255 00:24:18,380 --> 00:24:25,880 And then gradually just upping the workcount I wanted to write per day, so eventually writing 500 words a day and then a thousand. 256 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:35,090 I think towards the end of the process, right at the end when I had the book in my head and I just needed to flesh out the last few bits and, 257 00:24:35,090 --> 00:24:37,160 you know, basically do the set dressing. 258 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:42,770 I think I was writing two or three thousand words a day, but that was because the words were already written in my head. 259 00:24:42,770 --> 00:24:49,790 I just had to put them down on on keyboard. And yeah, that was sort of this little bit of a little bit of a mad rush to some. 260 00:24:49,790 --> 00:24:54,650 Suppose anybody who's done a thesis or writing a dissertation will have experienced as well. Towards the end, when you have that, 261 00:24:54,650 --> 00:25:01,160 that concept and you just want to get it down and then delivered that first draft of the manuscript and foolishly, 262 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,420 I thought that was what I was mostly finished. But then obviously you have to do a bunch of edits. 263 00:25:05,420 --> 00:25:11,180 And originally there's there's the round of edits where you speak to your editor and you effectively ask, 264 00:25:11,180 --> 00:25:17,180 right are all the chapters in the right order and are the points in each chapter in the right chapter. 265 00:25:17,180 --> 00:25:19,730 And once you've done that, then doing a second round of edits, 266 00:25:19,730 --> 00:25:24,290 so you're saying right are all the paragraphs in each chapter in the right order, are they 267 00:25:24,290 --> 00:25:25,160 Is there a logical flow? 268 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:34,220 Is there a story that's being told here and then going through a copy editor goes through and kind of goes word by word is everything spelled correctly? 269 00:25:34,220 --> 00:25:40,550 Is the grammar correct? Well, this kind of stuff. And then you get a copy editor who will go in sorry no 270 00:25:40,550 --> 00:25:43,640 That's the copy editor. Then you get a proof reader who comes in and does the same thing. 271 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:49,190 And you'll get notes from each stage of this, where the the amount of work you do generally decreases with each step. 272 00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:52,820 But every time you'll get a big document, they'll say, right, these are the suggested changes. 273 00:25:52,820 --> 00:25:58,250 Review them. You don't have to do them, but we think you should do these things. And so there's that big block of work. 274 00:25:58,250 --> 00:26:04,700 And then a kind of spaced repetition almost of going through with a fair bit of work and then a little bit of work and then a tiny bit of work. 275 00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:13,670 And then eventually you get what you think is the finished book and you record the audiobook for it or in my case, I did. 276 00:26:13,670 --> 00:26:22,250 And you go into the booth and then you find a whole bunch of other stuff that you want to change and things that are very minor typos. 277 00:26:22,250 --> 00:26:28,280 That have just been missed up until now, and sometimes they'll be version problems where they'll be two versions of a paragraph. 278 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:35,440 That one's slightly different, but for some reason the old ones are still there. And that's like the final time you have, you know, 279 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,740 it's like gradually taking your hands off the wheel of a car and originally you're gripping on really tight. 280 00:26:39,740 --> 00:26:44,990 And then eventually it's sort of like letting Jesus take the wheel. Eventually, you've just got like a finger on it. 281 00:26:44,990 --> 00:26:51,530 And then as you record the audiobook and you send off the last sort of few bullet points to change the last few atoms of your skin, 282 00:26:51,530 --> 00:26:58,900 leave the wheel, and suddenly it's completely out of your hands and it's getting printed 10000 times and it's being sent all over the world. 283 00:26:58,900 --> 00:27:06,980 So that's kind of what it's like to write a book. I was interested about what you said about the audiobook, actually, and about reading. 284 00:27:06,980 --> 00:27:20,010 I'm reading if I'm. Because I mean, partly personally, I can't imagine anything I would hate more than recording something that I had written. 285 00:27:20,010 --> 00:27:23,740 But. What, what was that like? 286 00:27:23,740 --> 00:27:26,950 What was that like? Because that's a whole other machine. 287 00:27:26,950 --> 00:27:37,030 Yeah, I mean, so I the only analogy analogy that I can make is that so the other thing that I do in my spare time, 288 00:27:37,030 --> 00:27:47,050 I paint models, so I paint Warhammer. And it's like spending what you think is a really long period of time on a model and getting it perfect. 289 00:27:47,050 --> 00:27:50,500 You're looking at for every angle and you think that's absolutely where I want it to be. 290 00:27:50,500 --> 00:27:55,450 And then you put it under somebody basically pulls you aside and says, for the next two days, 291 00:27:55,450 --> 00:28:01,090 you're going to be looking at that thing through a microscope and you're going to write down every little thing that you find wrong with it. 292 00:28:01,090 --> 00:28:05,770 And as a process, I'm sure that it has made me better as an author. 293 00:28:05,770 --> 00:28:11,470 And it's made me better as a narrator. But it was a massive hit to self-confidence. 294 00:28:11,470 --> 00:28:17,470 It was definitely a massive hits to thinking that I knew what I was doing in the first place. 295 00:28:17,470 --> 00:28:23,980 Because, yeah, it just exposes every little thing that you've done wrong because there is no room for interpretation. 296 00:28:23,980 --> 00:28:30,220 There is no at no point are you allowed to change what is actually written on the page unless there is an actual mistake. 297 00:28:30,220 --> 00:28:33,460 You have to read out every syllable as you wrote it. 298 00:28:33,460 --> 00:28:37,600 You can't use contractions. You can't switch the order of words around. 299 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:43,990 If you do, they'll be a little voice in your ear that will say, Nope, sorry, you've got to do that again. And so it locks you into to what you have done. 300 00:28:43,990 --> 00:28:50,410 And it was two days that were about eight hours each in a booth of just reading stuff 301 00:28:50,410 --> 00:28:56,060 that I'd written and going over a real journey with that because I realised that, 302 00:28:56,060 --> 00:29:03,160 as I said, I assume most authors do. I started writing the book at the start and then worked my way through. 303 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,820 And that means that you find your your voice as you, as you go. 304 00:29:06,820 --> 00:29:13,690 Sure. And you will then loop back to the start after you found your voice and you know what you're doing and you'll edit what you wrote. 305 00:29:13,690 --> 00:29:17,290 But even then, I found the first couple of chapters. 306 00:29:17,290 --> 00:29:20,680 I was like, Oh, this isn't. This isn't quite what I wanted it to be. 307 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,640 It's fine, and everybody has been very lovely about it and we've not had any negative feedback. 308 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:31,570 It's all about the first few chapters, but to me, I didn't think they matched up to the image that I had in my head of the of the book. 309 00:29:31,570 --> 00:29:33,280 By the end of it, by the second day, 310 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:41,080 I was really in the flow of it and I was better at narrating in that I was tripping up less and I wasn't mangling my words quite so frequently. 311 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:47,320 So you'd actually go over a couple of pages at a time without fouling up and having to start again. 312 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,810 But also, I felt like the book really got into its own. 313 00:29:49,810 --> 00:29:56,920 And so that was that was a real kind of journey of going in very naive, being really smacked down in terms of self-confidence. 314 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:04,250 And then by the end of it finding, actually, you know what? This is, OK? You've done pretty well with this book, I think. 315 00:30:04,250 --> 00:30:16,160 Yeah, and that must be really, really challenging as well for someone who's used to YouTube as a medium and speaking much more. 316 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:27,800 Fluidly and freely, I guess, or improvising? Yeah, that's the word, and having total control over and sole control over what I make, 317 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:33,140 I don't have to put things through 20 people in order for a final product to come out. 318 00:30:33,140 --> 00:30:38,060 The other end, if I wanted to, I could turn on my camera right now, film a video. 319 00:30:38,060 --> 00:30:43,100 Not even edit it at all if I didn't want to just put it on YouTube, and it goes out to my audience. 320 00:30:43,100 --> 00:30:45,950 And you know, that's not something I'd ever do, but it's not. 321 00:30:45,950 --> 00:30:51,440 But I like having that control and having having that sort of final say over the stuff that I make. 322 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:57,980 So definitely adapting to being limited in that sense, and it was limiting in terms of the audiobook. 323 00:30:57,980 --> 00:31:03,830 But also, you know, when you're writing the book, you're obviously having to work through other people and having people caution you and say, 324 00:31:03,830 --> 00:31:10,460 Actually, I don't think this works and all that kind of stuff. It was it was a definite shift, and I think it has made me better. 325 00:31:10,460 --> 00:31:14,180 And the book is undeniably better for that process. 326 00:31:14,180 --> 00:31:17,240 And I think it's also made better as as an author, because at the end of the day, 327 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:24,200 I'm borrowing other people's expertise and hopefully using that to improve my content going forwards. 328 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:34,720 But yeah, it's a definite change to what I was used to. And so moving kind of forward to the kind of the publication of it, so I mean, 329 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,520 I'm interested to know what that was like to have it to finally have the book in front of you. 330 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:45,490 Yeah, I mean, that was so I. 331 00:31:45,490 --> 00:31:49,240 There had been several moments where I've been kind of like, Oh my gosh, 332 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:58,000 I'm writing a book like I have written a book and, you know, submitting the the manuscript. 333 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:04,480 The final version of the manuscript is one of them. Seeing the proofs of what the outside was going to look like was another one. 334 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:10,270 See what the you know, the typeset version of the book. A PDF of what it was actually going to look like on the page was another. 335 00:32:10,270 --> 00:32:15,860 But the ultimate one was a couple of weeks before it was released holding it in my hands. 336 00:32:15,860 --> 00:32:21,920 They sent me a box of about 12 of them to distribute to people, and I was just sort of struck dumb. 337 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,000 That was it was a really emotional moment to hold this thing that I've. 338 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:34,010 I spent so long on, but also it was this ambition I'd had for years and years and years to to write it was a it was a really, 339 00:32:34,010 --> 00:32:36,680 really big moment for me. 340 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:43,640 And in a way, I told myself that because of all of that, because I'd had that big resonant emotional connection holding the book. 341 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:50,960 I thought that the actual release date itself wouldn't be that significant because we'd actually had some press before then. 342 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,670 And I'd had sort of reviews from people who I'd sent early copies, too, which were very nice. 343 00:32:55,670 --> 00:33:01,130 And, you know, I just didn't think that was very much to do itself on the day. But it still was a whirlwind. 344 00:33:01,130 --> 00:33:06,410 It was still absolutely overwhelming because you you put the post out on social media and everybody's, 345 00:33:06,410 --> 00:33:11,210 you know, sort of overwhelming with congratulations and everything like that on on Twitter and on Instagram. 346 00:33:11,210 --> 00:33:15,470 And I did a livestream on Twitch where I was answering people's questions and I did a bit of reading. 347 00:33:15,470 --> 00:33:20,120 And the day just flew by. Like, I had very few things to do that day. 348 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:25,940 And I'm glad of that because I just I there was no way I was going to be able to do anything else. 349 00:33:25,940 --> 00:33:29,690 I was just so emotionally spent trying to keep up. 350 00:33:29,690 --> 00:33:35,180 It was almost like, hold the day was going away from me and I was just trying to keep a handle on it and keep a handle on what was going on. 351 00:33:35,180 --> 00:33:42,980 So, yeah, it was totally overwhelming and something that I think I'm just about. 352 00:33:42,980 --> 00:33:49,070 OK with the idea now that I have published a book and it's in shops all over the all over the world now, 353 00:33:49,070 --> 00:33:55,280 and people have been very nice about it and people have written nice reviews. And I previously I understood that in abstract. 354 00:33:55,280 --> 00:34:00,080 I think now I actually I believe it and actually understand that it's something that matters. 355 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:05,300 And so what? What's happened since, you know, after that kind of really intense day of publication day? 356 00:34:05,300 --> 00:34:16,850 What what's happened sense in terms of, you know, publicity for the book or, you know, what opportunities have you got as a result of doing the book? 357 00:34:16,850 --> 00:34:20,210 Yeah, I mean, I've done quite a few literary festivals. 358 00:34:20,210 --> 00:34:25,910 I was in Warwick University of Warwick last week and previously I had talks in Bath and Bristol and London. 359 00:34:25,910 --> 00:34:30,020 I'm off to Hexham later this year. I actually just got invited to the I. 360 00:34:30,020 --> 00:34:38,510 Hopefully I'm allowed to say this to the Jersey Literary Festival, which is amazing because I love Jersey as an island. 361 00:34:38,510 --> 00:34:46,910 So, yeah, you know, there have been great opportunities to travel as a result. I think it gives you a certain level of second gravitas. 362 00:34:46,910 --> 00:34:54,830 If you if you have a book and you know that that is, I think, probably going to be around for a little while. 363 00:34:54,830 --> 00:34:58,700 The other thing which has happened is that I am now constantly thinking of and my publishers, 364 00:34:58,700 --> 00:35:03,570 asked me about, you know, doing another one, and it's a process that I would like to repeat 365 00:35:03,570 --> 00:35:10,580 And so, you know, every pretty much every day now I've just mulling over ideas in my head about like, what do I think is important? 366 00:35:10,580 --> 00:35:14,210 How would I change what I did before? 367 00:35:14,210 --> 00:35:23,240 Yeah, like the stuff now that is sort of I think I have it in my head that I like writing books and I would like to write more of them. 368 00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:27,680 And that's something that I imagine is going to only intensify and grow over the years. 369 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,470 And eventually, I do not want to stop making YouTube videos, 370 00:35:30,470 --> 00:35:36,110 but maybe eventually I'll be author and part time YouTuber rather than the other way around, 371 00:35:36,110 --> 00:35:44,960 because that was going to be my next question is the kind of the what next in terms of, you know, continuing with the YouTube channel. 372 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:53,610 Obviously, you know what? If the kind of the goal that you were trying to manifest was the right in the book, what's what's next? 373 00:35:53,610 --> 00:35:58,590 What's the next thing that you're kind of thinking about that you'd like to do? 374 00:35:58,590 --> 00:36:07,050 I mean, I would love to the project that I think is most would be the most valuable to do is a book about geoengineering, 375 00:36:07,050 --> 00:36:12,420 and that's something that I didn't quite deliberately didn't cover in firmament. 376 00:36:12,420 --> 00:36:21,030 But I think it's worth its own book and introduce people to what I unfortunately think he's going to be a big political issue 377 00:36:21,030 --> 00:36:28,470 this century is this idea of should we deliberately change the climate to undo some of the damage that we've previously done? 378 00:36:28,470 --> 00:36:34,170 And there are a couple of other things that are mulling around my head, but that's the one I keep coming back to. 379 00:36:34,170 --> 00:36:41,550 So in the short to medium term, I imagine that it would look like my future is going to involve making that. 380 00:36:41,550 --> 00:36:48,270 And if that one does well as well, because you know, Firmament has certainly done, it's far out performed my expectations in terms of sales. 381 00:36:48,270 --> 00:36:53,940 And Hodder and Stoughton have been very, very happy with it. So another one goes, Well, then who knows, 382 00:36:53,940 --> 00:37:00,510 maybe this is something this maybe this is sort of the way that things are for me for the foreseeable future is doing a book every couple of years. 383 00:37:00,510 --> 00:37:10,140 And if that involves me getting to meet interesting people and visit interesting places and just have to write about it, then that's that's fantastic. 384 00:37:10,140 --> 00:37:20,090 I'm very happy with that. It's incredibly, incredibly exciting, and I usually kind of try and finish things up by saying, you know, 385 00:37:20,090 --> 00:37:26,490 if if there's one of our kind of researchers out there who's listening to this, who's thinking? 386 00:37:26,490 --> 00:37:35,040 You know, science communication sounds like a really exciting career path and something that I might want to investigate, 387 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:41,470 what kind of advice would you give, particularly what they're still doing their research degree about what they might. 388 00:37:41,470 --> 00:37:48,810 Explore what opportunities to make the most of, to kind of put them in a really good place when they're coming out of it to. 389 00:37:48,810 --> 00:37:55,610 Yeah, perhaps think about going into. So the the toughest piece of advice I was ever given, 390 00:37:55,610 --> 00:38:03,950 and this was fortunately very early on when I was making videos was also the piece of advice that I give everyone because I think it's very true, 391 00:38:03,950 --> 00:38:09,620 which is you have to accept the fact that the first hundred videos you make will suck. 392 00:38:09,620 --> 00:38:15,830 And it's just unavoidable because you're not very good at it. But every time you make a video that sucks, 393 00:38:15,830 --> 00:38:22,070 you get a little bit better and you get to the point where you've learnt enough enough mistakes and you've 394 00:38:22,070 --> 00:38:28,130 learnt enough lessons that actually you can probably make something that's half decent on your first attempt. 395 00:38:28,130 --> 00:38:33,500 And it's the same in any other field. It's the same in drawing, you know, I think it's is it Chuck Larry? 396 00:38:33,500 --> 00:38:40,850 He was the artist for Bugs Bunny, said that every artist has a million bad drawings in their pencil, and it's your job as an artist to push them out. 397 00:38:40,850 --> 00:38:42,470 And eventually you get to the good ones. 398 00:38:42,470 --> 00:38:49,250 Or if you're writing the first piece of writing you have to do is going to be bad, but the next piece will be better because you learn from it. 399 00:38:49,250 --> 00:38:59,540 And if you are interested in making stuff, if you're interested in communicating science in a particular format, then don't worry about doing it well. 400 00:38:59,540 --> 00:39:03,140 And don't worry about doing it. When you're doing it full time, just start doing it. 401 00:39:03,140 --> 00:39:08,930 Just make stuff, because the first step to being good at something is being bad at something. 402 00:39:08,930 --> 00:39:14,930 And that is the hardest step. I think actually is to take that initial step of I just I want to do something. 403 00:39:14,930 --> 00:39:20,270 This is this. I like the idea of making a podcast. I'm just going to make it, and it will probably be bad. 404 00:39:20,270 --> 00:39:25,820 But the next time around, you'll probably learn from it quite quickly, and the second thing you make will be a lot better. 405 00:39:25,820 --> 00:39:30,080 And sure, maybe the first, you know, it might not be 100. It might be 10 or 20. 406 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,950 Things that you try are going to not be popular. 407 00:39:33,950 --> 00:39:35,060 They're not going be very good, 408 00:39:35,060 --> 00:39:41,360 but you're not going to get to the point to make something that will be good and will be popular without making those other projects. 409 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:48,350 So, so if you are interested in doing this down the line, don't think in terms like down the line, 410 00:39:48,350 --> 00:39:54,800 start doing it now and start learning those lessons whilst you're still in a structure, like doing a Ph.D. or lecturing or a postdoc. 411 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,240 That gives you that flexibility, and it means that you're not dependent on doing this. 412 00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:03,080 It's almost like a bird growing feathers before it tries to flee the nest. 413 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,610 Like you don't hop out of the nest and then hope that you grow feathers on the way down. 414 00:40:07,610 --> 00:40:16,430 You get to the point where you're able to take off. And whilst you're still in a safe environment, so definitely just start making stuff. 415 00:40:16,430 --> 00:40:21,980 And in terms of getting the message out there, I'd also recommend people to develop social media platforms. 416 00:40:21,980 --> 00:40:26,630 So it depends. It's entirely down to personal taste and sort of the audience you're trying to reach. 417 00:40:26,630 --> 00:40:33,950 I developed my Twitter and my YouTube, obviously, as I was going through the Ph.D., but allows you to signal boost something. 418 00:40:33,950 --> 00:40:38,450 It means that you make something and you boost it to an initial audience of people who, if it's good, 419 00:40:38,450 --> 00:40:41,780 will then boost it to other people and they'll bosst it to other people and so on and so on. 420 00:40:41,780 --> 00:40:48,470 But you have that little Kickstart so that starter engine for, for attention and publicity, for the stuff that you've made. 421 00:40:48,470 --> 00:40:48,920 And of course, 422 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:56,150 the way the best way to do that is grow what your your social media presence is to start making stuff and for people to start organically finding you. 423 00:40:56,150 --> 00:41:00,950 And eventually, the content will get to the point where it stands on its own two feet. 424 00:41:00,950 --> 00:41:07,160 And the social media profile will get to the point where people want to find you based on the merits of the stuff that you're making, 425 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:13,070 rather than necessarily just being your mates or your research group or whatever. And there's no hack to that. 426 00:41:13,070 --> 00:41:16,820 The unfortunate thing is you just got to you've got to start and grind it out. 427 00:41:16,820 --> 00:41:23,630 And the longer you put off starting that process, the longer it's going to be until you reach that end point. 428 00:41:23,630 --> 00:41:30,020 So start growing your feathers now and start making stuff. What a brilliant note to end on 429 00:41:30,020 --> 00:41:35,840 Thank you so much to Simon for taking the time out of his very busy schedule to talk to me. 430 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,470 And yeah what he says. Go out there and try stuff. 431 00:41:39,470 --> 00:41:42,530 I know in my career in very different ways. 432 00:41:42,530 --> 00:41:52,860 To Simon, trying new things and being willing to fail at them have kind of led to the really the best parts of my job and my career. 433 00:41:52,860 --> 00:41:58,460 And look out for firmament in a bookshop near you, and that's it for this episode. 434 00:41:58,460 --> 00:42:01,610 Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me. 435 00:42:01,610 --> 00:42:15,330 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.    

In this episode of R, D and the Inbetweens I am talking to Dr. Jane May Morrison and Dr. Edward Mills about being a neurodiverse PGR in honour of Neurodiversity Celebration Week! I have developed some advice for supervising neurodiverse PGRs from my conversation with Jane and Edward, which you can find on the University of Exeter Doctoral College blog. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Transcript   1 00:00:09,220 --> 00:00:13,600 Hello and welcome to R, D and the in-betweens. 2 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:25,530 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:25,530 --> 00:00:36,160 Hmm. Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of R, D in the In-betweens. 4 00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:41,500 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and I'm bringing you a special episode for Neurodiversity Celebration Week. 5 00:00:41,500 --> 00:00:48,250 So I'm going to be talking to two of our neurodiverse graduates about their experience of doing a Ph.D. 6 00:00:48,250 --> 00:00:54,370 So for those that don't know, neurodiversity is a way that we talk about variations or differences in the human brain. 7 00:00:54,370 --> 00:01:02,590 They may be regarding sociability, learning attention or mood, and we characterise those as differences rather than pathology. 8 00:01:02,590 --> 00:01:07,300 So rather than as something that's wrong with someone, it's just a way that they're different. 9 00:01:07,300 --> 00:01:17,200 Specifically, our guests today are autistic, so autism is a form of neurodiversity, but in and of itself refers to a very broad range of conditions, 10 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:22,450 which can be characterised by challenges with social skills, repetitive behaviours, 11 00:01:22,450 --> 00:01:30,430 speech and nonverbal communication, but not necessarily all of or just exclusive to these things. 12 00:01:30,430 --> 00:01:35,860 This episode is part of a new series where we're going to talk to researchers about 13 00:01:35,860 --> 00:01:42,040 their experiences of doing research with particular challenges such as neurodiversity, 14 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,800 and hopefully produce some guidance for supervisors, for PIs 15 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:56,290 for research leaders about how to best support and our researchers who have unique challenges within the research environment. 16 00:01:56,290 --> 00:02:04,870 Yeah, my name is Jane, and I'm originally from Glasgow, and I came to Exeter to do my PhD in human geography. 17 00:02:04,870 --> 00:02:12,040 I studied eco towns and whether or not living there is likelier to make you do green behaviours or not. 18 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:22,210 I was late diagnosed with autism at 29, and I'm also going to speak a little bit about the kind of ADHD neurodiversity perspective here as well, 19 00:02:22,210 --> 00:02:33,470 because my husband also who has ADHD, got his Ph.D. a few years ago, so we had to neurodiverse doctors in this house. 20 00:02:33,470 --> 00:02:40,490 I love that phrase two neurodiverse doctors. It sounds like it should be a TV show. 21 00:02:40,490 --> 00:02:43,700 I'm Edward. Do you want to go next? Yeah, of course. 22 00:02:43,700 --> 00:02:53,390 So Edward Mills, I am a lecturer in mediaeval studies now at Exeter, but I completed my PhD back in 2021. 23 00:02:53,390 --> 00:03:03,290 I think it was, yes. And I am here representing the autism side of things specifically. 24 00:03:03,290 --> 00:03:09,640 I was also late diagnosed not quite as late as Jane at I think twenty three. 25 00:03:09,640 --> 00:03:13,450 That poses some challenges, but I've never really thought about. 26 00:03:13,450 --> 00:03:21,970 How autism interests with study until a certain point, during my PhD which I am sure we will discuss in detail later 27 00:03:21,970 --> 00:03:27,400 Yes, thank you both, and I think that's what's particularly interesting about this conversation actually is 28 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:32,320 and is not just thinking about neurodiversity in general in terms of the PhD process, 29 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:43,610 but also, you know. Late diagnosis of of neurodiversity and how that particularly is, you're kind of embarking on a research degree, 30 00:03:43,610 --> 00:03:53,210 how that impacts your approach and your support and your position as a student whilst your grappling with. 31 00:03:53,210 --> 00:03:59,270 The diagnosis, were you both diagnosed before you started your research degrees 32 00:03:59,270 --> 00:04:01,430 No, I wasn't myself. 33 00:04:01,430 --> 00:04:12,560 I was only diagnosed within the first few months of my Ph.D., which was news that I didn't expect, and it wasn't terribly helpful, to be honest. 34 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:18,170 Yeah. So can you say something about that? About what? What do you mean by it wasn't terribly helpful. 35 00:04:18,170 --> 00:04:24,560 So I suppose in the long run, you could say it was helpful in the sense that it's better to know if you're having if you're struggling, 36 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:30,650 if you're having some difficulties communicating, if you're having some trouble with some aspects of study and being on campus. 37 00:04:30,650 --> 00:04:33,740 It's better to know than not to know. I completely believe in that. 38 00:04:33,740 --> 00:04:39,290 That's I completely believe in having the right information to understand your own condition. 39 00:04:39,290 --> 00:04:47,540 On the other hand, you don't necessarily want to hear just as you start one of the most difficult kinds of academic challenges of your life, 40 00:04:47,540 --> 00:04:51,110 that you are also going to have to do it slightly with, you know, 41 00:04:51,110 --> 00:04:56,240 an added difficulty level there of having a condition you hadn't anticipated or not having to manage. 42 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:01,880 So there are swings and roundabouts to knowing at that point. Absolutely. 43 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,990 What about you, Edwards, different circumstances similar outcome 44 00:05:05,990 --> 00:05:10,220 I think so. I was diagnosed a while before I started my research degree. 45 00:05:10,220 --> 00:05:14,540 I was diagnosed the day before my graduation for my undergraduate defree 46 00:05:14,540 --> 00:05:22,520 but I didn't really do anything about it, so to speak, until about six months into my Ph.D. 47 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:31,030 So the experience of coming to terms with what the diagnosis of, in my case, Asperger's meant. 48 00:05:31,030 --> 00:05:38,140 Wasn't something that I'd really had to tackle until it got to a point where I needed to do something about it. 49 00:05:38,140 --> 00:05:44,380 Yeah, so there's there's the dual challenges of, you know, the challenges of doing a research degree anyway, 50 00:05:44,380 --> 00:05:51,430 which let's face it, it's not the easiest of undertakings. But then also, you know. 51 00:05:51,430 --> 00:06:00,640 Coming, getting to grips with the diagnosis and what it means, and also, I guess what support is available to you and I'd be quite interested to know. 52 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:09,450 And you know, quite honestly about the did you access any support from the university? 53 00:06:09,450 --> 00:06:13,840 As somebody who is neurodivergent or did you? 54 00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:22,630 Did you feel kind of comfortable to continue your studies kind of without support mechanisms or you know or were, 55 00:06:22,630 --> 00:06:28,400 you know, how were the support mechanisms in place were they beneficial or not, I guess is the, you know? 56 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:36,460 Yeah, I see what you mean there. Yeah, I suppose that sometimes disability accommodations can be a little bit one size fits all. 57 00:06:36,460 --> 00:06:44,140 That can be a little bit of a nuance lost between figuring out the different conditions are really going to require different things. 58 00:06:44,140 --> 00:06:48,160 A lot of it is tailored towards undergrads. That's that's something I found in general. 59 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:57,910 From speaking to other neurodiverse peers. They're not necessarily completely sure what to do with some of the situations that arise during the PhD. 60 00:06:57,910 --> 00:07:05,500 It's more about having extra exam time and things that are the things that would come up more in an undergrad course. 61 00:07:05,500 --> 00:07:12,220 That's not to say that there was nothing helpful on offer. I don't want to come down hard on that at all. 62 00:07:12,220 --> 00:07:20,020 But some of it wasn't as tailored towards actually autism as opposed to just, oh well, there is a general disability here. 63 00:07:20,020 --> 00:07:27,520 Therefore, you find academic life generally difficult, therefore have extra time on an exam. 64 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,700 And yeah, and like you say, it's it's there's the. 65 00:07:30,700 --> 00:07:39,190 So there's the issue there of the kind of generic support for all disabilities and whether, you know, 66 00:07:39,190 --> 00:07:43,720 without getting into a debate of whether you consider neurodivergence to be a disability, 67 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:50,060 but also let you say it's it's aimed towards undergraduates, so it's more time in an exam, which just does. 68 00:07:50,060 --> 00:07:55,420 It just doesn't apply in the in the research environment. 69 00:07:55,420 --> 00:08:05,050 Yeah, I mean, in my case, I found it difficult sometimes to tell the difference between struggling with something because of because of the condition, 70 00:08:05,050 --> 00:08:12,970 because of autism or just am I struggling with something because it's something that any PhD would struggle with and the people around me as well, 71 00:08:12,970 --> 00:08:18,310 like, how do we attribute that if there is a difficultly or if there's something, I'm finding tricky? 72 00:08:18,310 --> 00:08:24,160 How do we how do we kind of pass out if it really is something that I'm just finding difficult because of who I am? 73 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:28,960 Or is it genuinely like, would anyone find this a tough situation? 74 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:35,090 Hmm. Yeah. And like I said, if you are doing research degree is tough. 75 00:08:35,090 --> 00:08:41,960 Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. Well, what if you go to say on that Edward in terms of your experience? 76 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,780 So I think it's again not altogether dissimilar, 77 00:08:45,780 --> 00:08:54,410 certainly the way in which Exeter and a lot of institutions address the challenges that something like 78 00:08:54,410 --> 00:09:00,740 an autism or ADHD diagnosis might pose for students is some variant of something called an individual. 79 00:09:00,740 --> 00:09:08,390 Learning plans wasn't really applicable. It's through the ILP at Exeter, where you get things like adjustments for exam time. 80 00:09:08,390 --> 00:09:14,780 But in my case  if I could give one piece of advice to a  neurodiverse PGR it would be this. 81 00:09:14,780 --> 00:09:21,020 I was able to make use of the supervision agreements, which is something that is specific to PGR. 82 00:09:21,020 --> 00:09:26,390 So in my case, I actually had the almost the supervision contract. 83 00:09:26,390 --> 00:09:32,540 If that makes sense that every new PGR signed up to individually with their supervisors at the start of the Ph.D., 84 00:09:32,540 --> 00:09:37,910 I mentioned it there and highlighted autism from the start. 85 00:09:37,910 --> 00:09:47,300 In that context, there wasn't really anything that an ILP tailored towards an undergraduate would necessarily achieve. 86 00:09:47,300 --> 00:09:55,160 So I didn't want to put that weight on the accessibility team next to manage that. 87 00:09:55,160 --> 00:10:00,770 So I found that going through that what is available to PGR specifically was quite helpful to take. 88 00:10:00,770 --> 00:10:06,200 So I guess that leads to two questions. 89 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,530 Sure, we'll deal with. So stick with the support theme. 90 00:10:10,530 --> 00:10:18,870 To start with, one of which is so you know, you said. You know, you, Edward, you raised. 91 00:10:18,870 --> 00:10:26,040 Your diagnosis within supervision agreement that was is a PGR related process, 92 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:32,220 and you've both reflected on kind of the individual learning plan model is that it's aimed at undergraduates. 93 00:10:32,220 --> 00:10:35,200 I guess my question then is what? 94 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:47,320 What support could have been available if that process were less aimed at undergraduates and it was it was more aware of the PGR experience? 95 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:51,100 Is there support that you think the university could have given you that it didn't? 96 00:10:51,100 --> 00:10:55,390 I think it's important to say that the support the university offers for neurodiverse, 97 00:10:55,390 --> 00:11:02,620 students isn't just an ILP, there were other areas of the university support for autistic students. 98 00:11:02,620 --> 00:11:05,860 In my case, I was able to access it, which I benefited enormously from. 99 00:11:05,860 --> 00:11:16,240 So, for example, there is the not at all oxymoronic autism social group, which I attended on a few occasions. 100 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:23,620 That tends to be quite undergraduate heavy, but it's always nice to meet people whose brains work in a similar way to yours, regardless of age. 101 00:11:23,620 --> 00:11:31,090 The university did also offer autism mentoring, which you can tailor and you can use its something a lot of universities do 102 00:11:31,090 --> 00:11:40,660 You can tailor and you can iuse it any way you see fit, so. In my case, it was not about some of the concerns that undergraduates might have. 103 00:11:40,660 --> 00:11:49,420 It wasn't about sort of. Principles of very basic time management that you might be coming to for the first time if you were going to graduate, 104 00:11:49,420 --> 00:11:57,640 it was sort of more more complex ideas than that and my mentor was still able to to help out with that enormously. 105 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:02,410 Yeah. So for me, a lot of it was simply awareness raising. 106 00:12:02,410 --> 00:12:12,160 I found helpful. Some accommodations are more to me of a safety net than something that is frequently needed. 107 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:23,170 I found that having a tailored kind of ILP type document of requirements, especially for my viva, it was very good to have as a safety net. 108 00:12:23,170 --> 00:12:31,330 It was very good to know that they had been aware that if my eye contact wasn't exactly as another students might have been, 109 00:12:31,330 --> 00:12:35,890 it's not because I'm being shifty or suspicious or because I'm hiding something, you know, 110 00:12:35,890 --> 00:12:41,290 it's just a natural feature of autism that you don't always make eye contact in quite the same way. 111 00:12:41,290 --> 00:12:48,070 And simply having that level of awareness and also having the option of the things that were in it was things like being able to take breaks, 112 00:12:48,070 --> 00:12:53,440 when I needed or if I appeared to be getting overwhelmed, if there was any flapping and skimming going on. 113 00:12:53,440 --> 00:13:02,440 It's a sign that your autistic student is starting to get a bit agitated. Time to call a break and start again, things like that in it. 114 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,040 In the end, none of that was necessary. The Viva went really well. 115 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:11,050 No need for taking any breaks. I felt completely in control and enjoyed the whole thing. 116 00:13:11,050 --> 00:13:14,200 But the fact that it was there as a safety net was helpful. 117 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:21,640 So sometimes even just knowing that your supervisors and the people who work with you are aware if you should become overwhelmed, 118 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:27,810 if you should start to get into difficulties. I think it makes all the difference. 119 00:13:27,810 --> 00:13:36,300 Yeah, I really that really resonates with me, the the issue of awareness and also having, like you say, 120 00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:47,620 having those things in place if they are needed because they are not necessarily going to be needed, we're not dealing with with, you know. 121 00:13:47,620 --> 00:13:51,790 We're not dealing with fixed experiences. No, that's yeah, but yeah. 122 00:13:51,790 --> 00:13:54,910 Also from the from the kind of ADHD perspective as well. 123 00:13:54,910 --> 00:14:03,280 It's it's looking back in retrospect that things I think would have made the whole experience easier for those with attention deficit disorder. 124 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,500 I mean, things like customised workplaces, 125 00:14:05,500 --> 00:14:11,950 because the science indicates that people with ADHD tend to learn better when they're a little bit in motion. 126 00:14:11,950 --> 00:14:16,690 So if they have the ability to pace up and down as they're studying, you know, 127 00:14:16,690 --> 00:14:23,530 that's why situations like hot desking in a quiet room where there's lots of people all together and everyone needs to be very quiet and considerate. 128 00:14:23,530 --> 00:14:23,890 You know, 129 00:14:23,890 --> 00:14:31,630 if you can give the ADHD students a little bit of space on their own for some pacing and talking to themselves and waving their hands at a whiteboard, 130 00:14:31,630 --> 00:14:36,760 you know this is how we do it in our household. Maybe it's a little kooky, but it works, you know? 131 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:45,810 And that's something that's specific to ADHD. Also, things like supervisors being able to. 132 00:14:45,810 --> 00:14:51,240 Stay quite on the ball. Stay quite strict with deadlines, 133 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:56,400 because even though you would assume that a lot of people that I've talked to who are managing 134 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:02,910 ADHD at university say that if the supervisor gives them to kind of vague or deadline and says, 135 00:15:02,910 --> 00:15:08,340 Oh, get it in whenever I don't really mind, I trust you. They say, Well, you know, how am I going to keep my concentration? 136 00:15:08,340 --> 00:15:16,320 I've got to keep my motivation high. I've got to have people you know that I can sign in with and check in with and talk to regularly. 137 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:24,990 So, yeah, it's surprising that what does work for one condition? It's surprising how much it really doesn't work for another sometimes. 138 00:15:24,990 --> 00:15:28,890 Yeah, and so there's there's a couple of things in there which which are really important. 139 00:15:28,890 --> 00:15:39,880 One is like you say, it's the it's. Different people require different structures, and you've both mentioned it, 140 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:49,600 so I wanted to bring up supervision and supervisors and specifically, you know where your saying, you know, awareness. 141 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:55,180 Is key. What kind of. 142 00:15:55,180 --> 00:15:58,030 What kind of support did you have in place for most supervisors, 143 00:15:58,030 --> 00:16:06,020 how did you approach talking to them about the different support that you might need or the different structures you might need? 144 00:16:06,020 --> 00:16:14,570 And you know, how willing were they to accommodate, I guess, is the word I'm looking for. 145 00:16:14,570 --> 00:16:23,320 So shall I go first? Yeah. Go for it Edward. So obviously, I've given everyone supervisor envy on this podcast before. 146 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,680 My supervisor Tom Hinton was wonderful about the whole thing. 147 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:35,350 I think what I actually put on the supervision agreement because it's very much a document at least at Exeter that you draft with your supervisor. 148 00:16:35,350 --> 00:16:42,160 Was that Edward might misread social cues or. 149 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:50,470 Possibly be a little too blunt when he didn't mean to be very standard, almost stereotypical things, really, 150 00:16:50,470 --> 00:16:59,290 but what tended to find was that sort of making a raising some awareness of that at the start was quite helpful in that. 151 00:16:59,290 --> 00:17:01,960 It's kind of a baseline, as we said, 152 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:10,660 where there's an expectation which then we probably both found ourselves tailoring without really thinking about the as the relationship evolved. 153 00:17:10,660 --> 00:17:15,880 Yeah. So it's not a particularly complex point to develop from what was being said a moment ago, 154 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:24,250 but it's the idea of being aware of being aware rather of your supervisor and the supervisor, 155 00:17:24,250 --> 00:17:31,330 being aware of what what they can do to help the supervisor work effectively with them as well. 156 00:17:31,330 --> 00:17:39,040 That can make a big difference from the outset and. What about you, Jane, what was your experience? 157 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:46,180 It was a learning curve for both of us because I was as much in the dark really as they were. 158 00:17:46,180 --> 00:17:53,290 I had no understanding or training. I didn't even really know what Asperger syndrome was. 159 00:17:53,290 --> 00:17:59,140 Apart from a few stereotypes that you see on TV, and we all know those can be wildly inaccurate. 160 00:17:59,140 --> 00:18:04,840 So we were all kind of learning together, and I think the whole process evolved over time. 161 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:14,200 I did have to change supervisors. And so that was part of the evolving that was part of the way that my degree changed over time. 162 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:24,930 That was part of my degree journey. And sometimes it was sometimes communication differences and things were they were quite nuanced, 163 00:18:24,930 --> 00:18:28,230 they were to do with the sort of conventions of academia. 164 00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:36,600 So for example, situations where it's the academic convention to write in the margins to give helpful feedback. 165 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:42,060 So I would have written this paragraph using X source. I would have emphasised Y Point differently. 166 00:18:42,060 --> 00:18:50,160 There's a little missing piece of the puzzle in the autistic mind, sometimes where the cognitive jump as to why he's writing that doesn't. 167 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:56,100 It's not immediately obvious to us. I have come to understand over time logicking it out that, you know, 168 00:18:56,100 --> 00:19:03,720 he means you might like to try writing this paragraph using x source, and you might like to emphasise y point differently. 169 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,950 My initial reaction is to look at it and go, Well, of course you would. You're a different human being. 170 00:19:07,950 --> 00:19:16,260 You'd have written a different thing to me because we do have these little misunderstandings that you just have to kind of, you know, 171 00:19:16,260 --> 00:19:19,590 the first few times and logic out kind of longhand and think right now, 172 00:19:19,590 --> 00:19:27,750 obviously it must mean that logically and then you come to an understanding and it becomes more commonplace, more kind of routine. 173 00:19:27,750 --> 00:19:34,410 Yeah, I had a few, a few moments like that. I don't think my supervisor typically wrote I would have written it this way, 174 00:19:34,410 --> 00:19:40,800 but there certainly were versions of that along the lines of me kind of having to, 175 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:49,770 as you said, logic out something using the logical parts of your brain where somebody who is neurotypical might do that quote-unquote instinctively. 176 00:19:49,770 --> 00:19:53,400 So that's certainly an experience I can relate to as well. Mm-Hmm. 177 00:19:53,400 --> 00:20:01,050 So if I was struggling with a piece of feedback struggling to understand exactly what the change I should make really was, 178 00:20:01,050 --> 00:20:09,510 that could be difficult at times because my supervisor would then think, Well, this person is struggling because I'm being too harsh. 179 00:20:09,510 --> 00:20:16,530 I need to moderate my tone more, I need to make the feedback more oblique and indirect, because otherwise it'll be too blunt. 180 00:20:16,530 --> 00:20:21,180 And of course, this is this is the opposite of of what would have really worked for the situation, 181 00:20:21,180 --> 00:20:28,080 because the more vague and oblique and indirect it becomes, the less easy to understand the actual objection is. 182 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:34,830 And so we all end up kind of missing each other in a way that was completely accidental and no one intends. 183 00:20:34,830 --> 00:20:41,430 But that was the kind of miscommunication error that we had to kind of overcome in the course of the degree. 184 00:20:41,430 --> 00:20:45,670 Yeah. Did you find yourself almost having a meta dialogue about? 185 00:20:45,670 --> 00:20:52,210 That sort of form of communication and feedback and all that sort of stuff to kind of. 186 00:20:52,210 --> 00:20:56,230 Tease out what what was was and wasn't working for both of you, I guess. 187 00:20:56,230 --> 00:20:59,560 I absolutely did with my supervisor. I think we did actually go on. 188 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:05,200 I did discuss that on a few occasions that he did. He did very helpfully clarify that for me, it was that it wasn't feedback on me. 189 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:11,800 It was what I what I'd written and how I could make it better because I have a tendency to take feedback very personally. 190 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:18,040 I encountered some resistance to that. Obviously, I'm not here on this podcast is single anybody out at all? 191 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:24,670 I'm just speaking honestly about it. Yes, there was some resistance from some quarters. 192 00:21:24,670 --> 00:21:33,610 There was a sense that I was asking for something very unreasonable and that when I confessed I was having some trouble communicating, 193 00:21:33,610 --> 00:21:39,460 there was a general meeting held to sort of say, Well, this is just the requirements of the degree we can't accommodate. 194 00:21:39,460 --> 00:21:44,100 It's got to be this way. So that was a little tough at first. 195 00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:50,970 I can't pretend otherways about that part. But, you know, ultimately in the long run, it all kind of evolved and it did work in the long run. 196 00:21:50,970 --> 00:21:57,140 We all came to a better understanding of communication. Yeah, and I think that there's two things that are really important, 197 00:21:57,140 --> 00:22:03,380 and one is is the importance of communication within within this and that kind 198 00:22:03,380 --> 00:22:09,100 of meta dialogue or meta communication and actually openness because. 199 00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:16,210 It sounds like you can only unpick because we're not talking about something as simple here as to go back to that classic example. 200 00:22:16,210 --> 00:22:20,950 More time in an exam, we're talking about something much more subtle, a much more nuanced. 201 00:22:20,950 --> 00:22:26,950 Yeah. And it sounds like to me what you're saying is that need that needs unpicking. 202 00:22:26,950 --> 00:22:32,750 Yeah, yeah. For that supervisory relationship to be able to work properly. 203 00:22:32,750 --> 00:22:37,750 It's like coming back to the awareness thing, even just knowing that that is on the table. 204 00:22:37,750 --> 00:22:41,110 The kind of meta unpicking option is on the table. 205 00:22:41,110 --> 00:22:45,700 If you want it to have a conversation about, you know, how can we talk about how we're communicating here? 206 00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:51,540 Is this working for you? Even just knowing that you could have that conversation is is helpful, I think, 207 00:22:51,540 --> 00:22:56,690 and I think setting that up from the outset is a very a very if you're able to do that, 208 00:22:56,690 --> 00:23:03,340 it's a very positive thing to do, certainly with my supervision agreement I was fornature enough to have that in place from the outset. 209 00:23:03,340 --> 00:23:14,370 And I think I you know and this is something that I harp on about quite a lot about, quote unquote adjustments is that, you know? 210 00:23:14,370 --> 00:23:19,080 That, I would say, is good practise in any supervisory relationship. 211 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:26,900 I'm. It to be having those conversations about how you communicate and what works and what doesn't. 212 00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:36,020 Because I it makes the learning experience much more effective, and this thing that I wanted to raise was, I think that Jane, 213 00:23:36,020 --> 00:23:38,390 you found something really crucial as well for me, 214 00:23:38,390 --> 00:23:46,670 which is that we have systems and processes and ways of doing which aren't like the not regulations. 215 00:23:46,670 --> 00:23:51,200 You know, they're not things that we have to do them all kind of cultural norms, really. 216 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:58,540 Yeah, the norms of the way that we do things and sometimes people find it really difficult to move outside of that. 217 00:23:58,540 --> 00:24:05,360 Well, that no, but that's the way that we do it, as if there's the fact that the way we do that, that's the way that we do. 218 00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:16,820 It means it's the right way and the only way which we're just not in a realm of, of the right way and the only way in so much of this work. 219 00:24:16,820 --> 00:24:24,380 And I think that that's a really important recognition as well is that it's it's a challenge to the norms of the system. 220 00:24:24,380 --> 00:24:33,590 Yeah, it's being changed in the undergraduate realm I'm thinking here about undergraduate assessment is often being has been 221 00:24:33,590 --> 00:24:38,060 radically changed in recent years in response to in response to COVID to change. 222 00:24:38,060 --> 00:24:43,070 Change is possible and change change does happen. Absolutely. 223 00:24:43,070 --> 00:24:48,960 But there's I think there is still a sense that the the Ph.D. as a. 224 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:59,190 As a higher degree is still being held to a lot of very traditional norms with a certain a certain set of expectations, be placed upon it. 225 00:24:59,190 --> 00:25:03,600 Excuse me, strange accent? Yes. 226 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:14,760 And I think that's really it's really important to recognise because the challenges to the system are crucial because it's challenging, you know? 227 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:20,710 Well, why? Why does it have to work that way? Why does it be assessed that way? 228 00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:25,840 Why do we have to communicate that way? You know, why is it that that's the way that we do things? 229 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,910 And what? Why can't we do things differently? 230 00:25:29,910 --> 00:25:35,070 And there might be a valid answer to that question that might be that the viva is an important. 231 00:25:35,070 --> 00:25:36,120 The way that we typically do it, 232 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:45,420 viva is an important step in making sure that we are able to prove authorship of the thesis and if they and in speech but equally, 233 00:25:45,420 --> 00:25:54,750 there are changes that we can make. Yeah. And I know that for instance, and what we've done at Exeter on adjustments for vivas, you know, 234 00:25:54,750 --> 00:26:02,550 it's been quite challenging because one of the things that often gets suggested by accessibility is, well, couldn't you have the questions in advance? 235 00:26:02,550 --> 00:26:09,250 And you go, Well, it's it's not a case of the questions are set in advance because it's a conversation. 236 00:26:09,250 --> 00:26:18,090 And so you can't you might be able to provide some of that, but you can't provide all of it's not the nature of of what the examination is, 237 00:26:18,090 --> 00:26:23,790 but there might be other accommodations that you could make that would provide the same level of support. 238 00:26:23,790 --> 00:26:30,120 For instance, I know I've had we've had students, for instance, who have stutters, 239 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:34,740 who have been who have been provided with some of the questions in advance so that they're 240 00:26:34,740 --> 00:26:40,290 able to write out responses so that if they are struggling to communicate within the viva 241 00:26:40,290 --> 00:26:46,080 that they have a response, but they only get that with, you know, within a certain time period or in advance and all this sort of stuff. 242 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:51,450 So there were there were rules around it, but it's not that the accommodations can't be made. 243 00:26:51,450 --> 00:26:59,700 It's just that they've got to, I guess, honour the nature of the examination whilst also not kind of. 244 00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:04,230 I realise I'm contradicting myself slightly, because whilst also not kind of being, 245 00:27:04,230 --> 00:27:08,320 you know, I don't think you're contradicting yourself, I understand what you're saying. Yeah. 246 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,840 No reasonable adjustments. I think that you're right, which is not really I mean, 247 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:19,740 that really resonates with me because I had an added complication on top of the autism I also was diagnosed with. 248 00:27:19,740 --> 00:27:24,660 Obsessive compulsive disorder was actually so severe that I was hospitalised 249 00:27:24,660 --> 00:27:29,430 within the first few weeks of my PhD with it because it was it was quite extreme. 250 00:27:29,430 --> 00:27:36,000 So it has been very bad at certain points, and I know that that has added a layer of complication and difficulty, 251 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,870 which I mean is something that you can you can kind of anticipate as part of 252 00:27:39,870 --> 00:27:44,010 disability services because it is normal for some conditions to cluster together. 253 00:27:44,010 --> 00:27:50,550 We all know statistically that it's much more common for people on the autism spectrum to have a diagnosis of OCD. 254 00:27:50,550 --> 00:27:56,910 So the fact that some of these disorders come in clusters will come together. You know, it's not a surprising thing. 255 00:27:56,910 --> 00:27:59,580 Well, it is a whole other layer of complications to manage. 256 00:27:59,580 --> 00:28:08,100 And I certainly was aware of the humorous irony, of a student trying to do a geography degree with periodic agoraphobia. 257 00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:14,340 So attempting to be on location and studying a particular location was having some difficulty 258 00:28:14,340 --> 00:28:19,560 leaving the house due to intrusive thoughts because obsessive compulsive disorder can catch you that way. 259 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:24,960 Sometimes when it's when it's busy and I raise you autism in a modern foreign languages degree. 260 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:33,990 Oh, I know you think that that wasn't helpful to have ended up with a situation of, you know, 261 00:28:33,990 --> 00:28:38,460 I'm going to I made out, obviously to my research location as often as I possibly could. 262 00:28:38,460 --> 00:28:45,180 But there were periods where the symptoms were very bad and it was difficult to get to conduct an interview, for example, face to face. 263 00:28:45,180 --> 00:28:51,600 And at that point, luckily, I say luckily in terms of a global pandemic, I wasn't lucky as such. 264 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:57,150 But you know, everyone was starting to move towards this more Zoom model of doing things. 265 00:28:57,150 --> 00:29:01,620 Everyone was understanding that there was a kind of online correlate way of doing things. 266 00:29:01,620 --> 00:29:10,380 And even though I acknowledged at the time, I understand that it's not as not necessarily as effective as being face to face my question at the 267 00:29:10,380 --> 00:29:16,470 time to the university authorities was can it be effective enough for me to make progress on my degree, 268 00:29:16,470 --> 00:29:24,000 even if we do a kind of online way that is not as superior, it's not necessarily as good as face to face. 269 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:31,230 Is it still 90 percent as good? Can we still make it as good as possible and it still be an accommodation that just about still works? 270 00:29:31,230 --> 00:29:35,520 And in the end, I did it half and half. I did some interviews face to face and I did some online. 271 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,120 And because of the COVID situation, that was becoming not unusual at that point. 272 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:44,250 So and I couldn't work in some circumstances. 273 00:29:44,250 --> 00:29:49,830 And I think that that in some ways is, you know, not not to in any way make light of a global pandemic. 274 00:29:49,830 --> 00:29:55,950 But that is some of the advances that COVID has given us is those sorts of things where we've gone will know it's it's inferior. 275 00:29:55,950 --> 00:30:04,410 It's not the same. It's not as good. We're not going to try or accommodate it because we were all forced into an environment where we had to actually, 276 00:30:04,410 --> 00:30:14,550 like you say, we've realised actually, you know what is 90 percent is good, actually, that's still valid and still useful and still, 277 00:30:14,550 --> 00:30:19,400 you know, helps us to create knowledge and do these things. 278 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:25,410 It still has worth just because it's the same doesn't mean it's not. 279 00:30:25,410 --> 00:30:26,640 It's not worthwhile. 280 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:33,990 I would challenge anyone looking at the side-by-side transcripts of the interviews done face to face and the interviews that I did online. 281 00:30:33,990 --> 00:30:37,560 I would really challenge anyone to see much of a difference in those. 282 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:43,410 I think we used a tiny bit of the kind of nuance of communication, facial expressions, body language. 283 00:30:43,410 --> 00:30:50,460 However, for an autistic student, I did kind of point out in my degree when I reflected on how it had gone and said maybe for autistic students, 284 00:30:50,460 --> 00:30:56,610 that's not as big a loss that we might not have been looking at that very well anyway. 285 00:30:56,610 --> 00:31:05,040 So, yeah, 90 percent as good, you know? So the. 286 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:11,400 I guess my next question is about what were the real challenges that you experienced 287 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,730 throughout the process of doing a research degree as someone who was neurodivergent, 288 00:31:15,730 --> 00:31:23,100 are there particular pinch points in the process like the Viva or was it just like you, said Jane. 289 00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:29,430 When you know these are in some ways fluctuating kind of symptoms and fluctuating effect on your life? 290 00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:32,370 And so if you will be like, you know, 291 00:31:32,370 --> 00:31:40,300 you said about when your OCD was particularly bad that you know that that causes of the knock on effect and challenges in your studies. 292 00:31:40,300 --> 00:31:49,080 I just wondered kind of. Yeah, I guess for you in your experience, what the big challenges were. 293 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:55,320 Yes. For the kind of OCD aspect of it certainly made concentration a little harder. 294 00:31:55,320 --> 00:32:02,370 You know, I was still able to produce a good result and like you say, sometimes you get the good result by atypical means. 295 00:32:02,370 --> 00:32:09,450 I think it slowed me down a little. I think that it was hard, harder to concentrate with intrusive thoughts causing a problem. 296 00:32:09,450 --> 00:32:17,700 But you know, you still get there in the end, you find ways of working around it, even if it goes a little bit slower than the conventional timetable. 297 00:32:17,700 --> 00:32:22,650 You can still get that. Yeah, that that for me was challenging. 298 00:32:22,650 --> 00:32:27,810 That was that was hard to bear sometimes because I didn't want to be dealing with it. 299 00:32:27,810 --> 00:32:33,660 You know, nobody else wanted me to be dealing with it. I was just. Whereas I think so. 300 00:32:33,660 --> 00:32:40,050 The analogy that's often used for having a neurodivergent condition is that you're 301 00:32:40,050 --> 00:32:43,350 running on a slightly different operating system than the rest of the world. 302 00:32:43,350 --> 00:32:47,700 So most of the world is running on Microsoft and you're kind of running on Linux. 303 00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:53,130 You might still you might use slightly different means to achieve the same tasks. 304 00:32:53,130 --> 00:32:57,750 OCD is more like a virus. OCD is more like a computer virus. It's not like an operating system. 305 00:32:57,750 --> 00:33:01,740 It's it's like something that stops the functioning of the system. 306 00:33:01,740 --> 00:33:05,210 So where's autism at something that can be worked with in academia? 307 00:33:05,210 --> 00:33:09,180 It can be really autism friendly. The OCD wasn't as much. 308 00:33:09,180 --> 00:33:14,220 That's a really, really interesting point, actually, and not one, 309 00:33:14,220 --> 00:33:19,950 not an angle that I I've thought about before, but certainly from an autism perspective. 310 00:33:19,950 --> 00:33:31,140 Your your brain running on a different OS is a very powerful model to take, and it's probably worth saying you mentioned some of the challenges, 311 00:33:31,140 --> 00:33:38,910 and I think I can echo the challenges coming up at certain points and being created by things other than necessarily purely PhD related things. 312 00:33:38,910 --> 00:33:46,620 So, for example, I really struggled living in a shared house in my first few months of the PhD, 313 00:33:46,620 --> 00:33:52,470 which is actually what kicked me into getting some autism support in the first place. 314 00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:57,840 But you mention that academia can also be autism friendly. 315 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:05,490 And you're right in that if if autistic people can be running Linux when everyone else is running Windows, 316 00:34:05,490 --> 00:34:13,590 that means that you can do a lot of things much more efficiently than than other people can accept. 317 00:34:13,590 --> 00:34:19,170 Then you'll sometimes ask to do something that's really easy to do in windows, and you have to go, Oh no, hang on I've got to open up the terminal here. 318 00:34:19,170 --> 00:34:31,770 Just just, yeah, yeah. How far does this analogy extend? As brilliant as always, as a non Linux user, I'm already confused. 319 00:34:31,770 --> 00:34:36,990 So. And I find that analogy really helpful. 320 00:34:36,990 --> 00:34:47,620 Like, I think that it really clarifies it and the way to the extent to which you've taken Edward really helps, kind of. 321 00:34:47,620 --> 00:34:56,260 Understand what the challenges are and let you see how some things might be more efficient, also easier. 322 00:34:56,260 --> 00:34:59,470 But then things that seem might be simple, as you said, 323 00:34:59,470 --> 00:35:06,550 simple in windows and then actually more complicated in Linux because we're continuing with this analogy. 324 00:35:06,550 --> 00:35:13,320 I wondered what? Based on the kind of the challenges and particularly. 325 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,010 What you seem to be saying is, is kind of it's it's. 326 00:35:17,010 --> 00:35:24,090 It's less about the process of doing the research degree and more about kind of basically how life intersects with it. 327 00:35:24,090 --> 00:35:32,640 You know, life happens and, you know, in whatever form and that creates, you know, challenges. 328 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:42,060 What advice would you have for supervisors in supporting neurodivergent students? 329 00:35:42,060 --> 00:35:46,440 With these challenges, shall I go first on this one? 330 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:52,770 Yeah, go for it. I think the main piece of advice I'd give supervises. 331 00:35:52,770 --> 00:35:58,460 It would be. Empathy. 332 00:35:58,460 --> 00:36:08,510 This sounds like a really obvious point to make, but being willing and able to listen from the start can make a huge difference, 333 00:36:08,510 --> 00:36:14,720 both in making the supervisor feel comfortable and ultimately new as a supervisor, 334 00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:20,360 making what's probably going to be a significant investment of your time over the next sort of three, 335 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:26,790 three and a half, four years or longer, it'll work better and work more productively. 336 00:36:26,790 --> 00:36:37,880 So being willing from the outset to listen and to engage in what we call the meta dialogue earlier can make a huge difference, 337 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:43,130 I think, from from the outset. So anything you wants to add to that, right? 338 00:36:43,130 --> 00:36:50,450 Oh, right. Yes. I think it comes back to a lot of what we were saying earlier about the willingness to communicate. 339 00:36:50,450 --> 00:36:57,230 I think what you made with some great points there, what I think empathy is certainly something that would be helpful and their willingness to 340 00:36:57,230 --> 00:37:02,210 communicate and the willingness to talk like you was saying on that meta level as well, 341 00:37:02,210 --> 00:37:11,390 to communicate about communicating, to ask, how is it going to actually ask what kind of ways of getting an idea together would be the most helpful? 342 00:37:11,390 --> 00:37:18,470 And if the current ones that we're using are working, you know, so you even just being able to talk on that meta level is also useful. 343 00:37:18,470 --> 00:37:25,010 But I found that the raising awareness and simply laying out kind of expectations 344 00:37:25,010 --> 00:37:29,390 or laying out an understanding of autism was at the beginning of things. 345 00:37:29,390 --> 00:37:32,270 It does change the whole dynamic. It does change the whole tone. 346 00:37:32,270 --> 00:37:38,990 If you go into it knowing that that's something that is going to be in the room with you, that you have to manage. 347 00:37:38,990 --> 00:37:45,520 You know, it no longer surprises people. People understand that if your eye contact, for example, is a little bit off to the left, 348 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:52,160 no, it's not a sign that something is wrong or that someone is uncomfortable. It's just what's normal for that student. 349 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:57,430 It really does make a huge difference as we sort of. 350 00:37:57,430 --> 00:38:07,160 Bring us up to a close, I wondered, actually if we could flip that around from advice to supervisors, what advice would you have for? 351 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:14,810 Either the current neurodivergent PGRs or people who are neurodivergent, who are considering doing a research degree. 352 00:38:14,810 --> 00:38:23,780 We got any kind of things that you wish you knew or kind of advice that you wish you'd been given at that point in time. 353 00:38:23,780 --> 00:38:28,340 Yeah. Well, I think when it comes to this kind of self-knowledge, like knowledge is power. 354 00:38:28,340 --> 00:38:33,140 The more you can articulate what's going on in your head, the more you can communicate. 355 00:38:33,140 --> 00:38:34,970 I know ironically, this is about autism, 356 00:38:34,970 --> 00:38:43,370 but the more that you can communicate your needs and the way that you operates and what kind of things that you need from others, 357 00:38:43,370 --> 00:38:53,120 you know, that's very helpful. Read up on your condition. Ask others or attend the very helpful support group that they have here at Exeter. 358 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:54,860 You know, that's very useful stuff. 359 00:38:54,860 --> 00:39:00,770 You connect with other people who have the same condition that you have and see what kind of commonalities you've got. 360 00:39:00,770 --> 00:39:06,080 And then, you know, that's a helpful springboard to work from because the more you know about yourself and your needs, 361 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:15,380 the more you can advocate and the more you can be precise and clear about what it is you're going to need during the course of your degree. 362 00:39:15,380 --> 00:39:21,420 I actually found a role for myself within the social group, which was sort of. 363 00:39:21,420 --> 00:39:27,600 Almost somewhere between a facilitator and a member, I suppose, I mean, I might be misreading that somewhat, 364 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:34,650 but I ended up I ended up running a kind of an informal autism lending library whereby all the books applied over the previous years. 365 00:39:34,650 --> 00:39:38,130 I just lent them out to autistic undergrads did, too. 366 00:39:38,130 --> 00:39:42,340 I took home a couple from you once. Oh, you're pretty sure. I think I did. 367 00:39:42,340 --> 00:39:46,920 Yeah. Did I get them back. Oh, oh no. 368 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:53,640 That's that's a challenging question. I'm quite sure that it's pretty sure I'm quite conscientious about that 369 00:39:53,640 --> 00:40:06,280 And if not, I've got the spreadsheet. But the the I would give to to students incoming PGRs is 370 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:15,880 Not just know as much about yourself as possible, but but certainly I echo a lot of of what Jane says about going to support groups, 371 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,690 even if you don't think at the start that you necessarily need them. 372 00:40:19,690 --> 00:40:32,210 It was a the university made it very easy, but it was inherently an unpleasant experience having to go in my second term in Exeter. 373 00:40:32,210 --> 00:40:40,040 Falling as it felt to well-being, saying, Hi, I'm a 25 year old. 374 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:46,400 Researcher who sits somewhere awkwardly between staff and a student, you know, 375 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:57,700 but I'm struggling with something that feels like all the undergrads just get. Help us in the all the undergrads get full stop help exclamation mark. 376 00:40:57,700 --> 00:41:06,520 So what what I would say is get the get the support mechanisms set up as soon as possible. 377 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,150 It's it's it's something I say to undergraduate students actually, 378 00:41:10,150 --> 00:41:19,150 as a personal tutor now is if you know that you might benefit from support, put the steps to get it in place way. 379 00:41:19,150 --> 00:41:25,360 Put put the steps underway now rather than waiting for a crisis because you will make your life 380 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:33,040 so much easier if you are comfortable and if you are aware of what might happen before it does. 381 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:40,650 Yeah, because. And neurodivergent conditions will. 382 00:41:40,650 --> 00:41:42,840 Make your experience different, 383 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:51,990 and the earlier that you can acknowledge that and lean into both how that can make you experience good and also how we can. 384 00:41:51,990 --> 00:41:57,240 Create problems that you'll need to deal with the better. Yeah, yeah. 385 00:41:57,240 --> 00:42:01,620 I mean, I would add even things like communicating on academic Twitter can be helpful. 386 00:42:01,620 --> 00:42:05,610 There is a little group of neurodiverse PhDs on there. 387 00:42:05,610 --> 00:42:13,080 We share tips. We share information. And like you say, even if you don't think you're going to need a kind of support group scenario, 388 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:20,070 even if you don't think that you've got a particular interest in socialising with your own people, 389 00:42:20,070 --> 00:42:28,380 even if you, you know, even if you don't think that's of particular interest to you, you'd rather cluster around an interest or about something else. 390 00:42:28,380 --> 00:42:35,310 There were light bulb moments at the autism sort of social group at Exeter that I have. 391 00:42:35,310 --> 00:42:38,580 I think we were out on a social trip to the bowling or something. 392 00:42:38,580 --> 00:42:43,680 We were all walking down the road together and I looked around and was like, Wait a minute, we've all got the same walk. 393 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:50,340 How does this happen? These moments of like, we've all got these particular commonalities. 394 00:42:50,340 --> 00:42:55,080 You know, we will do this thing the same way we all think about this thing the same way. 395 00:42:55,080 --> 00:43:02,040 And I was this little light bulb moment where I have realisations about myself and about the way I worked that I found helpful. 396 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:08,580 Oh, for me with trying to work out how many how much of the surface area of Devon you could cover if you took all of the baked beans that ever been made? 397 00:43:08,580 --> 00:43:18,130 We did the maths on it all classic. Yeah, in a hundred and forty years, no 400 years to cover Devon in baked beans. 398 00:43:18,130 --> 00:43:27,700 I am afraid I'm going to have to draw us to an end. Thank you both so much for your time and your candour. 399 00:43:27,700 --> 00:43:42,180 And and just for sharing your experience because I think like, you know, you're both saying about awareness and about. 400 00:43:42,180 --> 00:43:51,300 About learning from others and all of those sorts of things, and I think that hopefully for anybody listening that this will be really useful. 401 00:43:51,300 --> 00:43:56,040 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. 402 00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:23,157 And join me. Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

In this episode of R, D and the Inbetweens, I talk to Dr. Catherine Talbot, Lecturer in Pyschology at Bournemouth University about dealing with failure and rejections.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,220 --> 00:00:13,600 Hello and welcome to R, D and the in-betweens. 2 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:25,530 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:25,530 --> 00:00:36,190 Hmm. Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In-betweens. 4 00:00:36,190 --> 00:00:44,590 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and this episode, I think, is possibly one of our most important episodes so far. 5 00:00:44,590 --> 00:00:50,380 So in this episode, I'm going to be talking to one of our wonderful doctoral graduates from the University of Exeter, 6 00:00:50,380 --> 00:00:56,650 Dr. Catherine Talbot, who is now a lecturer in psychology at the University of Bournemouth. 7 00:00:56,650 --> 00:01:06,580 All about failure and rejection, and about how it's perhaps unseen and under-discussed area of academic life. 8 00:01:06,580 --> 00:01:13,420 And one we hope by the end of this conversation, we can normalise a little bit for you. 9 00:01:13,420 --> 00:01:23,890 Yes. So my name is Catherine Talbot, and I actually did my Ph.D. at the University of Exeter and finished a few years ago in medical studies, 10 00:01:23,890 --> 00:01:28,750 and now I'm a lecturer in psychology at Bournemouth University. 11 00:01:28,750 --> 00:01:37,780 Most of my research is in the area of cyber psychology, so I specifically focus on social media and how people with dementia use it, 12 00:01:37,780 --> 00:01:42,730 the barriers they face, the challenges and also the benefits. So. 13 00:01:42,730 --> 00:01:51,730 What we're going to talk about is failure and rejection, and we're going to sort of undermine those terms as we talk. 14 00:01:51,730 --> 00:01:58,420 But, you know, acknowledging I think that for a lot of people that by the time they get to a research degree, 15 00:01:58,420 --> 00:02:01,390 they tend to have been high flyers throughout their academic education, 16 00:02:01,390 --> 00:02:07,060 and they tend to have been people that have done really well and been really successful and not 17 00:02:07,060 --> 00:02:16,210 necessarily having had experience of quote unquote failing or being rejected for something. 18 00:02:16,210 --> 00:02:21,730 And then when that does start to happen through publications, through funding, 19 00:02:21,730 --> 00:02:26,770 through conferences, various different things, it can be a really difficult thing. 20 00:02:26,770 --> 00:02:35,530 But at the same time, it's. It is a kind of cornerstone of the academic experience. 21 00:02:35,530 --> 00:02:45,160 So I wondered if you could say something about your kind of first your first experiences of of sort of failure or rejection as an academic, 22 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:55,660 whether as a Ph.D. student or as a lecturer. And really what that what it was and what that felt like to you, if that's OK. 23 00:02:55,660 --> 00:03:03,970 Yeah, of course. I guess by now, I feel a bit like an expert in failure and rejection, to be honest. 24 00:03:03,970 --> 00:03:07,900 So I just really identify with what you were saying. 25 00:03:07,900 --> 00:03:13,180 So when I first came to my research programme was a Ph.D. student. 26 00:03:13,180 --> 00:03:17,590 You know, I'd done really well at university. I had a placement. 27 00:03:17,590 --> 00:03:21,310 Year, I was looking to publish a paper. All very exciting stuff. 28 00:03:21,310 --> 00:03:25,630 So I didn't really have that experience of rejection. 29 00:03:25,630 --> 00:03:33,100 And then it came to my p h d and submitted the paper to a journal for the first time. 30 00:03:33,100 --> 00:03:42,250 And yeah, just having the reviewers comments back and then really just really tearing that paper apart. 31 00:03:42,250 --> 00:03:46,390 It's something that I just put my heart and my soul into. 32 00:03:46,390 --> 00:03:55,360 And I remember receiving those comments and just crying, just go and having a little cry and thinking, I'm the worst researcher ever. 33 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,470 I can't do this. I'm going to fail my PhD 34 00:03:59,470 --> 00:04:05,320 Everyone, you know, and just completely catastrophize and really from there. 35 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:09,790 So, yeah, I just I've got much better at dealing with that now. 36 00:04:09,790 --> 00:04:16,720 Yeah, I you're saying now I'm remembering this always comes back to my memory randomly the first time. 37 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:29,260 And so when I started my research degree, I submitted part of Masters for publication at my sort of supervisor's suggestion and it got rejected. 38 00:04:29,260 --> 00:04:34,780 And I read about two sentences of that feedback. 39 00:04:34,780 --> 00:04:41,800 And it was it felt so brutal. I didn't want to read anymore, so I filed it in my email. 40 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:48,280 And by the time I got up, the courage to try and read it it had been archived and I couldn't get it back. 41 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:50,560 So I never actually read the feedback. 42 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:57,100 I just literally like, I couldn't handle it, so I dug my head in the sand just as like, No, I'm not going to deal with this I'm not 43 00:04:57,100 --> 00:05:05,290 gonna think about it, which it's very difficult, but it is so, so difficult, especially how those emails start as well. 44 00:05:05,290 --> 00:05:10,180 You just think, Oh, I'm rubbish, I'm the worst. Yes. And it very much. 45 00:05:10,180 --> 00:05:12,100 And that's the thing. I think it's it's twofold. 46 00:05:12,100 --> 00:05:20,560 It very much feels like a personal failure and you and catastrophizing what you say, you think, Oh, I'm not going to I can't do this. 47 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:25,240 I can't do it because, you know, because of this one thing where they've said, No, not this time. 48 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:37,540 Essentially, you know, you feel like everything is over and you can't do any of it, which of course, is not true, but it feels so real at the time. 49 00:05:37,540 --> 00:05:42,240 It feels so overwhelming. Yeah, definitely. 50 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:48,060 And also, you do I've noticed I do tend to focus on the negatives as well that are in there. 51 00:05:48,060 --> 00:05:57,630 So even if I receive well as an example, actually, I wrote a paper recently which got accepted for publication, 52 00:05:57,630 --> 00:06:04,260 but I didn't actually realise it had been accepted because I picked up on all of the negative comments within the review. 53 00:06:04,260 --> 00:06:07,620 I didn't read that one sentence that was like, If you make these changes, 54 00:06:07,620 --> 00:06:18,680 I'm happy to accept that it just it says something really significant about our mindset and and the way that we're that, 55 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,670 the way that we're both used to and respond to critique. 56 00:06:23,670 --> 00:06:29,840 We're all it's that kind of perfectionism and imposter syndrome. I think like we're always assuming that we're going to get found out. 57 00:06:29,840 --> 00:06:37,150 And so we're always trying to like looking for the negatives or looking for the flaws and not necessarily looking for the sentence that says. 58 00:06:37,150 --> 00:06:43,010 We want to accept this for publication. Yeah, exactly, exactly. 59 00:06:43,010 --> 00:06:52,150 Always looking for that critique and that criticism. And I think it is important to go back to the idea of. 60 00:06:52,150 --> 00:06:57,580 Of it feeling like a a personal failure, because one of the things I always try and say to people is, 61 00:06:57,580 --> 00:07:04,330 you know, you have to try and and I'm not saying I can't do this or I'm good at it, by the way, 62 00:07:04,330 --> 00:07:11,440 but you have to try and take a step back and realise that even though you put your heart and 63 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:18,250 soul and all of this work into your publications or applications or anything that you're doing, 64 00:07:18,250 --> 00:07:21,250 that is not you, and that is not the sum of you. 65 00:07:21,250 --> 00:07:28,600 And so when that is rejected, whatever reason, that isn't a rejection of you, it's a rejection of whatever is on that piece of paper. 66 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:39,280 The tiniest snapshot. Yeah, I agree. And it can just feel so personal that this is an issue with you as a person, as you as a student as well, 67 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:44,800 when actually, you know, they're just critically appraising the work, which is what they're meant to do. 68 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:50,720 And there will be some good bits in that. And usually reviews do add some nice little positive bits as well, 69 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:58,390 or ultimately just seeing This as right, I can take this information and I can go and improve my work. 70 00:07:58,390 --> 00:08:07,690 And because people, they have taken the time to, to look at your work, to engage with that and to provide comprehensive feedback. 71 00:08:07,690 --> 00:08:14,910 So they're viewing it more in that way as well. But I think what you said there, Kelly, and was really interesting actually, 72 00:08:14,910 --> 00:08:20,230 because I think maybe this relates to how we see ourselves as Ph.D. students as well, 73 00:08:20,230 --> 00:08:28,390 because I know at that point in my life that was such a big part of who I was as a person was the name of a Ph.D. student. 74 00:08:28,390 --> 00:08:36,160 And that's kind of how I evaluated myself. So when having that negative feedback or that experience of rejection, 75 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:41,890 it can be quite hard not to take it personally because that's such a big part of who you are. 76 00:08:41,890 --> 00:08:49,990 So like I was saying at the start, I think if you're if you've been, like, really academically successful. 77 00:08:49,990 --> 00:08:58,720 And most people, you know, that come of certainly through a traditional route to a research degree or a PhD have been 78 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:06,100 you're not you're not used to it, you're not used to not doing well at things and it's a privileged position to be in. 79 00:09:06,100 --> 00:09:18,650 But it's still, you know, it's a learning process of how to deal with critique and how to deal with rejection and how to turn that into. 80 00:09:18,650 --> 00:09:21,740 Into the positive that you're talking about, actually turn that into a. 81 00:09:21,740 --> 00:09:31,050 How do I use this to improve my work to make it better rather than just going kind of falling into an existential hole of. 82 00:09:31,050 --> 00:09:35,580 Why am I doing this, why aren't you know? I'm not I'm not good enough to do this. 83 00:09:35,580 --> 00:09:45,850 I'm. So. I wonder if you could say a little bit about how, you know, a few years on. 84 00:09:45,850 --> 00:09:51,000 How you deal with any kind of failure or rejection? 85 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:58,680 In your professional life now, like, you know, compared to that first paper when you started the Ph.D. 86 00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:06,180 If you have something now, what do you do? How do you try and and and respond to it in perhaps a more positive way? 87 00:10:06,180 --> 00:10:10,980 And how and how do you cope with the emotions that you feel associated with it? 88 00:10:10,980 --> 00:10:23,730 Yeah. So it is difficult. And I will say that I think I've got better with time and just kind of as you get more experience of it and this rejection, 89 00:10:23,730 --> 00:10:31,110 unfortunately being quite a normal part of academia, you do. You do you kind of get a little bit used to it, I guess. 90 00:10:31,110 --> 00:10:37,230 But it's still hard when you spend lots of time on something and you've got that rejection. 91 00:10:37,230 --> 00:10:43,680 And you know, initially what I found is I do feel upset or I feel angry. 92 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:48,750 So what I do is I read through the rejection letter, so if it's a paper, 93 00:10:48,750 --> 00:10:54,990 I'll look through the reviews and then I'll just allow myself to feel the emotions that I'm feeling right. 94 00:10:54,990 --> 00:10:59,970 We shouldn't be suppressing those emotions just accept how I'm feeling. 95 00:10:59,970 --> 00:11:03,870 And then I just move those reviews to a different folder in my inbox. 96 00:11:03,870 --> 00:11:13,260 And I think, right, I'll return to those in a couple of days. And what I found actually is that when I return to that, those reviews in a few days, 97 00:11:13,260 --> 00:11:21,210 they seem they make a lot more sense and they, you know, they seem a bit kinder than when I initially read them. 98 00:11:21,210 --> 00:11:25,930 So I find that is one helpful thing to do. 99 00:11:25,930 --> 00:11:35,800 Yeah, I think that's really crucial and really important is letting yourself feel that and letting yourself have an emotional response to it, 100 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,890 particularly as you put so much into, you know, 101 00:11:38,890 --> 00:11:46,270 whether you're writing an article or you're putting together a funding application, you know, these are colossal pieces of work. 102 00:11:46,270 --> 00:11:59,780 And you dedicate a huge amount of time amd yourself to and to then get that email, as it tends to be now that says no is it's really hard. 103 00:11:59,780 --> 00:12:07,600 And as you as you rightfully said, unfortunately, it is a sort of no, it's a normal thing in academic life. 104 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:20,260 It's the mainstay, you know? The nature of what we do is you try things, whether that's, you know. 105 00:12:20,260 --> 00:12:25,540 Particular research or, you know, trying to publish something or trying to get some funding. 106 00:12:25,540 --> 00:12:31,670 You know, you try things, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and. 107 00:12:31,670 --> 00:12:41,250 Given how competitive it is, unfortunately, you tend to lose more than you win, and that's normal. 108 00:12:41,250 --> 00:12:51,930 Yeah, I was going to just add to that, actually, that I've have, and this is the same for professors and, you know, world leaders in the field. 109 00:12:51,930 --> 00:13:01,820 They have admitted they have had far more grants rejected than they've had accepted, and that's certainly the case for me. 110 00:13:01,820 --> 00:13:08,250 And you know, it's just the nature of it, and it's about almost being able to just dust yourself off and say, 111 00:13:08,250 --> 00:13:14,830 Right, what can I do with this information to improve and to succeed in the future? 112 00:13:14,830 --> 00:13:24,490 Absolutely, because there will be something in there, some nugget of wisdom that you can take forward with you to the next one. 113 00:13:24,490 --> 00:13:29,720 And you know, it is a little bit of a revolving door of. 114 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:37,980 Right. Not that journal. Let's look at the feedback. Let's look what they said unless, you know, let's try again somewhere else. 115 00:13:37,980 --> 00:13:42,120 And it is a bit like that, and sometimes it's just it's not it's not the right place, 116 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:46,830 it's not the right time, you know, if the research isn't quite developed and you know, 117 00:13:46,830 --> 00:13:51,600 the ideas aren't quite developed enough, it's all sorts, all sorts of reasons, 118 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:58,680 none of which are anything to do with you or your ability as a researcher. 119 00:13:58,680 --> 00:13:59,970 Yeah, I was just going to add as well. 120 00:13:59,970 --> 00:14:06,870 There is it's also recognised in that there is that element of luck there as well, and that's something I've certainly found. 121 00:14:06,870 --> 00:14:11,520 So as a qualitative researcher submitted to journals, 122 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:21,300 it's the most frustrating thing where you get someone who uses quantitative methods reviewing your stuff and just doesn't understand it and therefore, 123 00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:28,890 you know, suggests that it's rejected and then it gets rejected. So maybe also think about is, is this fair? 124 00:14:28,890 --> 00:14:33,220 Is it is it fair or is it that I need to find somewhere else to send this somewhere? 125 00:14:33,220 --> 00:14:37,120 That's and what I'm doing a little bit more. 126 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:45,220 And like you say, you know. There's an element of luck in this and timing. 127 00:14:45,220 --> 00:14:49,700 There's an element of I mean, it's hugely competitive, 128 00:14:49,700 --> 00:14:57,730 I remember when I was an undergrad applying for funding for my masters and I applied to the Arts Humanities Research Council, 129 00:14:57,730 --> 00:15:05,590 the AHRC for funding and my application got rated excellent priority for an award. 130 00:15:05,590 --> 00:15:11,570 And I did not get any money because the. 131 00:15:11,570 --> 00:15:20,850 There were so many applicants. I was just going to say it is just so competitive with all of these grants fellowships, 132 00:15:20,850 --> 00:15:28,380 and there's lots of really excellent researchers all applying for the same funding with excellent proposals. 133 00:15:28,380 --> 00:15:34,650 And just the chance of success is so, so low. Yeah, and that's. 134 00:15:34,650 --> 00:15:42,690 And I say that not to discourage people, but just just to recognise the reality of it, and I say the same with academic jobs as well. 135 00:15:42,690 --> 00:15:48,870 You know, I see a lot of of PGRs coming through and applying for postdocs or for lectureship. 136 00:15:48,870 --> 00:15:53,760 And not getting interviews or getting interviews and not getting the roles and saying, 137 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:58,500 Oh, you know, they gave it to someone and they've got more publications. 138 00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:03,360 than me they've done this many more conference presentations or they had funding for that, 139 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:09,210 you know, and kind of starting to do this, do this exercise of right. 140 00:16:09,210 --> 00:16:14,730 These are the things I've done and these are the things that they've done. And these are all the ways they've done things. 141 00:16:14,730 --> 00:16:17,430 They've done more things than I have done better things than I have. 142 00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:23,040 And the thing that always strikes me when people do that is that they write this list of all the things somebody 143 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:29,760 else has done that they haven't and they don't think about the things that they've done that somebody else hasn't. 144 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,770 And the experience that they have that somebody else doesn't. 145 00:16:31,770 --> 00:16:40,630 They totally devalue what they have and go, well, that person's better because they've done X, Y and Z, and I haven't done that. 146 00:16:40,630 --> 00:16:49,090 That's such a good point. I'm definitely guilty of that. It's and it's hard not to do it. 147 00:16:49,090 --> 00:16:54,340 But, you know, there's all sorts of reasons why that person might be the person that gets a job over you 148 00:16:54,340 --> 00:16:57,620 They may have all of these things because they're not because they're further along. 149 00:16:57,620 --> 00:17:02,050 You know, they may be three years out of their research degree and you're only one. 150 00:17:02,050 --> 00:17:07,630 So they've they had more experience. They've had more time. You know, that's not a reflection on you. 151 00:17:07,630 --> 00:17:12,950 That's just the reality of having had more time to develop these things. 152 00:17:12,950 --> 00:17:19,400 But exactly, and we can't just judge people just based on these singular criteria, 153 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:27,110 when we're all very different, I guess different disciplines, we have different approaches to doing research. 154 00:17:27,110 --> 00:17:31,250 You just can't really compare yourself. I don't think either. No. 155 00:17:31,250 --> 00:17:39,010 And it's it's, you know, it's like we said about the kind of, you know, an article or an application being a snapshot, you know, a job application. 156 00:17:39,010 --> 00:17:48,090 Again, it's just a snapshot. What? What's on? A piece of paper or an online form is not the sum of everything that you are. 157 00:17:48,090 --> 00:17:56,990 And somebody has got to make a judgement based on what is what they have in front of them, which is. 158 00:17:56,990 --> 00:18:07,220 So far from the sum of its parts, you know, it's so far from representative of all that that person is and all that they do. 159 00:18:07,220 --> 00:18:16,440 And so they're not, you know, they're not judging. That person is better than Person B, they're 160 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,250 Looking at what they've got on a piece of paper to make a decision, 161 00:18:20,250 --> 00:18:25,860 and it's not a judgement on an individual, and it doesn't mean that that person's better than you. 162 00:18:25,860 --> 00:18:31,950 It just means that you say they fit a set of criteria and it was it was on the form that they needed. 163 00:18:31,950 --> 00:18:40,780 You know, it's. It's it's a strange way to make decisions, but it is nonetheless the way that we do it. 164 00:18:40,780 --> 00:18:49,780 Yeah, exactly. I mean, just on that point about jobs, I guess before my first postdoc, I applied well. 165 00:18:49,780 --> 00:18:54,490 I had interviews for three positions before actually getting that one. 166 00:18:54,490 --> 00:18:59,830 So getting rejected from these positions is completely normal. 167 00:18:59,830 --> 00:19:08,380 And actually, I think some of it as well is learning what to expect in an interview and actually learning how to write those job applications, 168 00:19:08,380 --> 00:19:13,720 which I've certainly got better at now and how to emphasise your skills and how to 169 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:18,580 show that you do fit this criteria so that when a person goes through those forms, 170 00:19:18,580 --> 00:19:21,190 they can just say yes, they meet this criteria. 171 00:19:21,190 --> 00:19:28,650 Yes, they've published paper and just really trying to sell yourself, I guess, in the best possible way. 172 00:19:28,650 --> 00:19:34,630 And try and capture what you know that. 173 00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:41,830 That thing that makes you unique. You know, the thing that you know so and so might have X number more publications than you. 174 00:19:41,830 --> 00:19:46,990 But what do you have that they don't? Do you have more teaching experience that they than they do? 175 00:19:46,990 --> 00:19:50,830 Because actually, if you're applying for an academic role that might, 176 00:19:50,830 --> 00:19:58,050 depending on what the need is in the department at that time, that might be more valuable to them. 177 00:19:58,050 --> 00:20:06,910 Yeah, exactly. Such a good point. And also, when applying for the postdoc, your topic area might be a better fit than someone else. 178 00:20:06,910 --> 00:20:07,980 And you know, 179 00:20:07,980 --> 00:20:17,880 it's and also in terms of what other skills do you have in terms of networking and what kind of what wider network do you bring to the role? 180 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,470 You might have some fantastic contacts and collaborations. 181 00:20:22,470 --> 00:20:29,740 Do you have experience with science communication and think about those other skills as well that aren't just publications, 182 00:20:29,740 --> 00:20:37,710 because especially if you're applying for a postdoc, you'll be publishing while doing the postdoc and you will get guidance and advice on that. 183 00:20:37,710 --> 00:20:45,040 Absolutely, and you know, it's important to remember that with all of these activities, none of it is a finished product. 184 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:55,460 You know, it's not a finished researcher, you know, putting a box tied up with a bow, perfect number of publications perfect number of 185 00:20:55,460 --> 00:21:02,740 postdocs held. It's it's all a process, and you will develop within whatever role. 186 00:21:02,740 --> 00:21:06,460 You end up getting on you, 187 00:21:06,460 --> 00:21:09,700 and that will give you the opportunity to develop these things and to develop 188 00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:16,220 your publications and build from the bits of and all of these sorts of things. 189 00:21:16,220 --> 00:21:23,340 I wondered if you could say something about what I guess what you've learnt. 190 00:21:23,340 --> 00:21:27,810 From the process of failure, so, you know, we've said it's a common part of the academic experience. 191 00:21:27,810 --> 00:21:33,460 You get rejected and you get rejected more times than you'll get accepted. 192 00:21:33,460 --> 00:21:39,770 But so what have you learnt along the way? 193 00:21:39,770 --> 00:21:50,860 So while we've already touched on not taking it too personally, I've I've learnt that I've also learnt about it being a common experience. 194 00:21:50,860 --> 00:22:01,310 So for example, I've recently started collaborating with this amazing big deal researcher and they were sharing their experiences 195 00:22:01,310 --> 00:22:07,970 of failure actually and talking about all of these grants they've submitted and none of them getting funded. 196 00:22:07,970 --> 00:22:10,010 And I thought, Wow, OK, 197 00:22:10,010 --> 00:22:18,410 so it actually is a common experience that people who are these superstars are also experiencing it too I think that that's really important. 198 00:22:18,410 --> 00:22:27,770 And so there being an openness and talking about failure is really important because the more we talk about it, 199 00:22:27,770 --> 00:22:32,890 the more we normalise it and the more we create an environment that says, actually, 200 00:22:32,890 --> 00:22:41,100 you know, this is normal, this is something we're going to go through and. 201 00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:51,960 There are ways there are ways to cope with it. And you know that you have a community around you who've been through exactly the same things. 202 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:57,360 Yeah, exactly, and I guess that's something that I try to talk about on academic Twitter. 203 00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:02,550 quite a bit is talking about experiences of rejection and being quite open about that. 204 00:23:02,550 --> 00:23:09,490 I mean, don't get me wrong, sometimes academic Twitter can make you feel quite rubbish because you see all of these people doing amazing things. 205 00:23:09,490 --> 00:23:17,160 And I sometimes think, Oh, I'm not doing that. But there are a lot of people speaking openly about rejection and failure on that, 206 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,990 and it's such a good community, particularly for PhD students, I think. 207 00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:25,510 So definitely recommend making use of that. Yeah. 208 00:23:25,510 --> 00:23:36,600 And like let you say, I mean, because Twitter has historically been a kind of a publicity tool, let's say, for for academics. 209 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,170 It can make you feel inferior. 210 00:23:39,170 --> 00:23:48,640 But but increasingly, there's more and more discussion of the realities, I guess, of being an academic and things like failure. 211 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:53,310 And there's been an increase we've seen in people publishing failure CVs 212 00:23:53,310 --> 00:24:00,660 So the kind of opposite of a CV, all of the things that you failed at all of the things that you've been rejected from. 213 00:24:00,660 --> 00:24:09,090 To kind of bring to the surface, actually the thing the thing that you would submit to, you know, for a job application is all the positive things. 214 00:24:09,090 --> 00:24:12,720 But like you say, there's all of the kind of. 215 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:20,160 The rejections and the failures behind that which outnumber, you know, the things that you would put on a CV for an employer. 216 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:32,280 And I think that that's it's just really healthy to be for people to be sharing that openly and making it clear. 217 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,110 This is normal, I'm not just saying it's normal, 218 00:24:34,110 --> 00:24:44,410 but like you were saying with working with a more senior researcher really showing and demonstrating in reality that his perfectly normal. 219 00:24:44,410 --> 00:24:52,360 Yeah, exactly, and I think what I've learnt the most is you've got to keep them up your motivation so that it can be so hard. 220 00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:57,760 But if you've got a grant application that hasn't been funded, yeah, that's rubbish. 221 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,110 But think right? Where can I send this now? What is that? 222 00:25:02,110 --> 00:25:08,020 That's still useful. That will help me to grow as a researcher and really improve my skills. 223 00:25:08,020 --> 00:25:17,060 How can we still do this despite this rejection, are there other avenues and really thinking about those sort of things? 224 00:25:17,060 --> 00:25:22,790 You know, if you if you submit an article to a journal, 225 00:25:22,790 --> 00:25:30,090 the worst thing that happens is that you're going to be outright rejected, but you will get feedback. 226 00:25:30,090 --> 00:25:40,230 On how to improve. So there's always that kind of sense of of being able to move, move it forward. 227 00:25:40,230 --> 00:25:46,590 Yeah, and I didn't realise it as well, that people say, who do these reviews generally, 228 00:25:46,590 --> 00:25:53,940 I'm not going to say often, but generally people do want to be constructive and they do want to help. 229 00:25:53,940 --> 00:25:59,190 And there is this push as well now to be a lot kinder in reviews as well. 230 00:25:59,190 --> 00:26:05,230 So I know a lot of editors are giving that as outright guidance, but realising that these people, 231 00:26:05,230 --> 00:26:10,740 they have spent their time on it and that very often experts in that area. 232 00:26:10,740 --> 00:26:13,950 So it is a way for you to improve and to develop. 233 00:26:13,950 --> 00:26:20,970 And you know, if we're thinking about a publication, then you can actually end up with a much better publication as a result of that. 234 00:26:20,970 --> 00:26:27,750 So I know some of my own work from when I've submitted it to the first journal compared to, say, the third one. 235 00:26:27,750 --> 00:26:34,530 The paper changes so much and it's so much better, and I'm much happier with it with that final submission. 236 00:26:34,530 --> 00:26:41,940 So and something else I was thinking, which I find really helpful if I'm really annoyed about some reviewers comments. 237 00:26:41,940 --> 00:26:46,260 I will just meet up with my friends, say, go to the pub, go to the cafe, 238 00:26:46,260 --> 00:26:53,190 have a video call during COVID, and I will just rant about it for a good half hour an hour. 239 00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:59,810 Get it all out of my system and then I'll say, Oh, OK, I feel a lot better now and ready to talk about. 240 00:26:59,810 --> 00:27:05,890 Exactly how we'd process anything else. And I think that's what we've got to, you know, 241 00:27:05,890 --> 00:27:13,340 got to remember that it's how you'd process any other kind of emotion or not back if you had an argument with somebody, 242 00:27:13,340 --> 00:27:16,610 when someone's done something to annoy you. That's exactly what you would do. 243 00:27:16,610 --> 00:27:24,870 You would go and sit in a pub with your friends and go, Oh my, oh my God, you'll never believe what just happened. 244 00:27:24,870 --> 00:27:32,940 And that is cathartic. Exactly, and it's so simple, and I really value that pub time. 245 00:27:32,940 --> 00:27:42,180 Exactly. And that's why our and that's why our communities of practise and and kind of communities 246 00:27:42,180 --> 00:27:49,470 appears so important because actually they're the ones that kind of nurture and sustain us, 247 00:27:49,470 --> 00:27:54,060 share their experiences with us. You know, and say, you know, it's share. 248 00:27:54,060 --> 00:28:00,030 I've been through this too and kind of commiserate you when the failures and the rejections come in, 249 00:28:00,030 --> 00:28:06,510 but also celebrate with you when the when the successes happen. 250 00:28:06,510 --> 00:28:09,680 And I find that other people are very good at. 251 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:18,740 When you kind of wallowing in self-pity, which I consider to be very myself, to be very, very good at is other people are very good at going. 252 00:28:18,740 --> 00:28:24,290 But what about that thing that you did? That's really good. What about that thing you did? 253 00:28:24,290 --> 00:28:31,790 That's really good. And getting yourself a group of colleagues and a group of people that will do that for you is, 254 00:28:31,790 --> 00:28:37,360 I think, so important as part of the academic experience. 255 00:28:37,360 --> 00:28:40,660 Yes, so basically find your cheerleaders, find them. 256 00:28:40,660 --> 00:28:46,480 They're out there and they'll be experiencing exactly the same stuff that you are ever. 257 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:52,120 Pretty much everyone is experiencing those feelings, the failure ot rejection. 258 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:57,490 So you just need to find your cheerleaders and you can be theres as well. 259 00:28:57,490 --> 00:29:01,000 Thank you so much to Catherine for taking this time to speak to me, 260 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:08,230 but also for her candour and honesty about what are actually quite difficult experiences to talk about, 261 00:29:08,230 --> 00:29:13,510 but also admit to because it's not in academic culture to talk about these things. 262 00:29:13,510 --> 00:29:20,890 So I really value her honesty, both in this discussion, but also on Twitter. 263 00:29:20,890 --> 00:29:25,630 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. 264 00:29:25,630 --> 00:29:39,770 And join me. Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between. 265 00:29:39,770 --> 00:29:52,731 To.  

In this episode of R, D and the Inbetweens, I talk to Dr. Nicole Morrissey and Dr. Victoria Omotoso about their experiences of doing ajorr corrections after their viva.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,220 --> 00:00:13,600 Hello and welcome to R, D and the in-betweens. 2 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:25,790 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:25,790 --> 00:00:36,790 Hmm. Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of R D the In-betweens. 4 00:00:36,790 --> 00:00:43,480 We're back again talking about the viva and specifically about corrections and outcomes of post viva. 5 00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:49,310 This episode is all about major corrections. Now there's a lot of anxiety around major corrections. 6 00:00:49,310 --> 00:00:54,220 The what that means in reality, that it's something terribly bad as an outcome. 7 00:00:54,220 --> 00:01:01,540 And hopefully the experiences of two of our graduates, Dr. Nicole Morrissey and Dr. Victoria Omotoso, 8 00:01:01,540 --> 00:01:11,260 will allay some of these fears and actually help you understand what major corrections are in reality and that it's really not so bad. 9 00:01:11,260 --> 00:01:21,250 OK, so I'm Nicole Morrissey. I did my Ph.D. in medical sciences or more specifically, neuroscience, 10 00:01:21,250 --> 00:01:30,080 and now I'm a postdoctoral researcher at the Medical Research Council in Harwell. 11 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:40,690 Fantastic, so the big question is when you after you did your viva, what kind of car did you get? 12 00:01:40,690 --> 00:01:51,080 And so while I was in my viva because I had what's known as an independent learning plan, 13 00:01:51,080 --> 00:02:00,710 they kind of say I was just it was described to me that my corrections were kind of like minor, but with extra time or minor/major. 14 00:02:00,710 --> 00:02:04,400 Well, officially on paper, I got given major corrections. 15 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:09,920 So that meant that I had what like six months to do the corrections rather than three months. 16 00:02:09,920 --> 00:02:18,860 Yeah, exactly right. And I think what you've raised there is a really, really important point and important way in which minor major corrections are used, 17 00:02:18,860 --> 00:02:23,900 which is that it's about time that it will take you to do the corrections. 18 00:02:23,900 --> 00:02:28,610 And it's all sorts of reasons why people have what might be classified as minor corrections, 19 00:02:28,610 --> 00:02:32,030 but they get major corrections to give them the time to do them. 20 00:02:32,030 --> 00:02:38,480 You know, lots of people who are already working and therefore can't work on the corrections full time or that, 21 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,060 you know, there's all, you know, there's all sorts of reasons. 22 00:02:41,060 --> 00:02:47,120 And of course, having an individual learning plan, that means you're not able to do it in that period of time. 23 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:52,400 And it's really about the time it will take you to do the corrections rather than the corrections themselves. 24 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:59,930 How did they talk to you in the viva and afterwards about what specifically they want to do to do so through the viva 25 00:02:59,930 --> 00:03:03,050 We kind of just started. So mine was during the lockdown, 26 00:03:03,050 --> 00:03:11,810 so it was virtually so we were kind of all of us looking at our screens I had two screens set up one with the thesis and one with the examiners, 27 00:03:11,810 --> 00:03:17,480 and we were just going through the thesis just like a chapter by chapter going through it, 28 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:25,520 just discussing what I did and what they kind of they thought maybe needed to be corrected. 29 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:36,410 So I made notes as I was going through it, but also then afterwards it took it was about. 30 00:03:36,410 --> 00:03:41,890 First, probably three or four weeks after the viva I received the official documentation, 31 00:03:41,890 --> 00:03:48,730 which is when the examiners had written down what the corrections are, 32 00:03:48,730 --> 00:03:59,740 how specific were they about in that kind of list that they sent you about what you needed to do to get the OhD? 33 00:03:59,740 --> 00:04:06,640 I mean, they wrote down what the page number of what their point that they were like making and 34 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:12,760 whereabouts on the page like first paragraph second paragraph halfway through the second paragraph. 35 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:19,170 So that made it quite easy to sort of go through one by one and correct it. 36 00:04:19,170 --> 00:04:24,300 But it was at least clear to you what the expectation of the examiners was. 37 00:04:24,300 --> 00:04:33,090 Yes. And I think that's where a lot of the anxiety for people comes is they think it's not going to be clear what they need to do and it might, 38 00:04:33,090 --> 00:04:39,270 you know, be open to huge amounts of interpretation, whereas actually. 39 00:04:39,270 --> 00:04:45,570 Examiners tend to be pretty, pretty clear and pretty specific about what what is needed. 40 00:04:45,570 --> 00:04:50,940 Yeah. Like, I felt like it was kind of like a to do list, that I went through and sort of tickd things off 41 00:04:50,940 --> 00:04:58,060 Yeah, I like that kind of concept of it. So when you see, you know, you tackled your corrections, you talk to your supervisor. 42 00:04:58,060 --> 00:05:03,480 You ticked off the to do list. And you when you finished that, what happened? 43 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:08,670 What did how did you resubmit the thesis? 44 00:05:08,670 --> 00:05:18,150 So I had to email the postgraduate admissions office and tell them I was ready to resubmit. 45 00:05:18,150 --> 00:05:21,090 And similarly to how I submitted in the first place, 46 00:05:21,090 --> 00:05:33,060 they gave me a link to the online folder where I uploaded it in both Microsoft Word and PDF format because I thought both might be helpful. 47 00:05:33,060 --> 00:05:36,990 And what happened then? How long of a wait did you have before you 48 00:05:36,990 --> 00:05:44,520 Actually, you heard that the corrections have been accepted? Um, well, I had quite a long wait. 49 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,820 I ended up having to like ask about what was happening. 50 00:05:47,820 --> 00:05:54,810 I think because it was a mix of the pandemic and I submitted my corrections probably at the end of May. 51 00:05:54,810 --> 00:06:03,840 So then it was also the summer and people were away. So I didn't find out about my corrections until beginning of August. 52 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:11,950 Wow. Wow. So it was quite a few months, and then I had a second set of corrections to do. 53 00:06:11,950 --> 00:06:15,850 OK, so this is so this is something that people often ask about is, if you know, 54 00:06:15,850 --> 00:06:19,780 submit if you submit the first set of corrections, what if they come back with extra things? 55 00:06:19,780 --> 00:06:22,400 So can you talk a little bit about? 56 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:29,690 About that, about how how you got that extra set of corrections, what kind of things they were, how you approached it? 57 00:06:29,690 --> 00:06:35,600 Yeah. So it was, I don't know, frustrating, is the right word or disappointing. 58 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:43,730 But when I went through like the the examiner's report of the second set of corrections, 59 00:06:43,730 --> 00:06:47,630 it became clear to me that they had read the entire thing pretty much. 60 00:06:47,630 --> 00:06:53,950 Or most of it again. Wow. And most of the corrections were just spelling errors and then a few suggestions 61 00:06:53,950 --> 00:07:04,400 and change like statistical tests or corrections to my statistical analysis. 62 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:09,620 A couple of things that I didn't really make clear during my first corrections 63 00:07:09,620 --> 00:07:18,850 So. I kind of went through it and was able to appreciate like the like the effort and help, 64 00:07:18,850 --> 00:07:24,810 that the examiners provided to make it the best, that my thesis, the best it could be. 65 00:07:24,810 --> 00:07:36,670 And. I think also having quite a bit of a break between submitting my second corrections no submitting my first corrections and receiving the second lot, 66 00:07:36,670 --> 00:07:42,190 I was able to look through my thesis and with a clearer mind. 67 00:07:42,190 --> 00:07:52,840 It actually kind of it made it a lot easier to kind of get into a good, sort of like the best version of it can be. 68 00:07:52,840 --> 00:08:02,620 And so although it was maybe disappointing, I it kind of it was again another good learning experience. 69 00:08:02,620 --> 00:08:08,200 It made it a lot better than it was from the first set of corrections. 70 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,720 Absolutely. And so how did how did that happen? 71 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:18,550 Did they email you and say, Look, we've got a few more, few more corrections we want you to do before we can pass it? 72 00:08:18,550 --> 00:08:24,340 And then how long did you did you have to do the second set? 73 00:08:24,340 --> 00:08:28,600 Yes. So I got another email. Similarly, like before saying that. 74 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,290 So yeah, it was like, before that I got an email. 75 00:08:33,290 --> 00:08:39,680 The exact wording. It said something like to like. 76 00:08:39,680 --> 00:08:46,790 Further corrections or something. And again, it was like a to do list again, but a lot smaller. 77 00:08:46,790 --> 00:08:53,720 Yeah. And I was given four weeks to finish complete them in. 78 00:08:53,720 --> 00:09:01,650 And you said they were kind of mostly. Typing spelling like really tiny bits of work. 79 00:09:01,650 --> 00:09:14,290 Yeah, which is kind of I remember seeing on Twitter being like a meme or not a meme, but like it's a picture with words saying, you know? 80 00:09:14,290 --> 00:09:17,980 That not to worry about or make going through your thesis. 81 00:09:17,980 --> 00:09:22,120 Make sure the spelling perfect cause the examiners aren't actually going to read it. 82 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:27,250 I was like, well, it was actually it was important. 83 00:09:27,250 --> 00:09:35,620 Yeah. And then my examiners definitely like, Read it. So yeah, I was like, That's funny, but it's also not true. 84 00:09:35,620 --> 00:09:38,890 I think there's something really lovely that you said in there about the, you know, 85 00:09:38,890 --> 00:09:46,150 the the way in which the examiners approached the thesis and the level of detail about second time around that they read it. 86 00:09:46,150 --> 00:09:56,760 But they that what you see, the way that you talked about it seemed to be with a kind of that there was real, there was real care from the examiners. 87 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:03,340 You know, your thesis. I mean, I I really enjoyed the viva 88 00:10:03,340 --> 00:10:07,900 I mean, it was, you know, it was a good chat about my work. 89 00:10:07,900 --> 00:10:16,840 And I mean, my examiners kind of like, I think the way you look at it, it's all a learning process. 90 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:21,810 So. You know, it's. 91 00:10:21,810 --> 00:10:31,890 I think it's to be appreciated the kind of the time and effort that they put in because it's it's towards your own development. 92 00:10:31,890 --> 00:10:41,910 Absolutely. And. I think, you know, goes back to the kind of thing that we always tell people, which is that, you know, your examiners wants you to pass. 93 00:10:41,910 --> 00:10:49,800 They want you to pass and pass and produce the best thesis that you have that you can produce at that point in time. 94 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:56,920 And you know, that's everybody's goal, not just yours, their job isn't to catch you out in any way 95 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:05,110 Exactly. And one thing that I often get asked by people about major corrections is if having had 96 00:11:05,110 --> 00:11:11,380 major corrections somehow negatively affects your opportunities that come after the PhD 97 00:11:11,380 --> 00:11:16,720 And I have a very specific answer to this and a very brief answer, 98 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:21,910 but I wondered if if you as somebody that you know, has has been through, it could talk. 99 00:11:21,910 --> 00:11:30,690 Or just comment on if there's any kind of impact. Long term from having had major corrections. 100 00:11:30,690 --> 00:11:38,640 I mean, I don't think so, so I mean, I got my post-doc position like before I'd actually submitted my thesis, 101 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,340 so it didn't impact that and I can't see it. 102 00:11:42,340 --> 00:11:49,650 I'm just like applying for new positions now, and I can't see it impacting me here because it's not something that you generally list. 103 00:11:49,650 --> 00:11:51,720 On your CV or 104 00:11:51,720 --> 00:12:01,320 And if someone asks, you kind of got a question why they're asking you, because it's not like with other examples university or school exams. 105 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,400 It's not really a very standardised because it really just depends on the examiners 106 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:14,640 that you have and how like I guess what they what they think should be corrected. 107 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:21,610 So it is very subjective and very much depends on the viva and on the examiners. 108 00:12:21,610 --> 00:12:24,760 Yeah, and that's exactly what I tell people. 109 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:33,040 Everything that you said for it, when it actually comes to getting out in the world, nobody really asks or. 110 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:39,430 Exactly. And in that case, because you've got a you've got a Ph.D. or whatever research degree you've been doing, 111 00:12:39,430 --> 00:12:45,350 you know, you you've it's it's not like a first or a 2:1, it's pass or fail. 112 00:12:45,350 --> 00:12:50,550 It's it's that simple. And so once you're through that system, it doesn't matter. 113 00:12:50,550 --> 00:12:55,020 If you've got major corrections and I think it's important to take some of the stigma away 114 00:12:55,020 --> 00:13:00,670 from corrections being a negative thing because corrections are actually quite normal thing. 115 00:13:00,670 --> 00:13:06,070 Hi, my name is Victoria Omotoso I did my Ph.D. in theology, 116 00:13:06,070 --> 00:13:12,190 and my research was looking specifically at audience reception of Jesus in film. 117 00:13:12,190 --> 00:13:19,360 So looking at audiences in South Africa and in the UK and how they respond to Jesus in films. 118 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:29,430 And currently I am working as a lecturer, teaching theology and Media, IMedia Studies. 119 00:13:29,430 --> 00:13:38,450 Fabulous, thank you. So can you tell us a little bit about a little bit about your viva experience, but particularly and. 120 00:13:38,450 --> 00:13:41,730 What you what you had in terms of corrections after the viva 121 00:13:41,730 --> 00:13:50,210 and whether they were classified as major or minor and how the examiners talked to you about those corrections and in the viva? 122 00:13:50,210 --> 00:13:54,920 Yeah. So my viva experience happened in 2020. 123 00:13:54,920 --> 00:14:00,370 So obviously it was during the time of heightened kind of COVID restrictions. 124 00:14:00,370 --> 00:14:02,300 And so it was an online viva, 125 00:14:02,300 --> 00:14:12,200 which actually which did not actually detract anything away from the overall experience of a lovely engagement, even online. 126 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,890 And my examiners were lovely and gracious, and I had, you know, 127 00:14:15,890 --> 00:14:23,840 good support in terms of kind of prepping of what that might look like, say the Viva itself went well. 128 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:35,370 And then when I think the next phase when I returned back into the virtual room, I was given. 129 00:14:35,370 --> 00:14:42,270 Major corrections and major corrections, it was classified as because of the time they had given me, 130 00:14:42,270 --> 00:14:49,290 I was given six months in terms of the nature and you have to remember everything is 131 00:14:49,290 --> 00:14:56,640 kind of specific to the nature of your research and of what they require of you. 132 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:03,660 So of course, everyone's kind of specific specific recommendations will be different. 133 00:15:03,660 --> 00:15:10,740 But in my personal case, it was to kind of go back on one thing, 134 00:15:10,740 --> 00:15:19,260 but they had given me enough time to gather all the extra extra kind of literary resources that I needed to do it. 135 00:15:19,260 --> 00:15:25,810 And at first, it was a bit harrowinfbecause I wasn't sure about what that meant. 136 00:15:25,810 --> 00:15:29,970 Like, you know, do I get a Ph.D. or what has happened? 137 00:15:29,970 --> 00:15:36,690 But it was only after a few kind of frantic calls to my supervisor and to kind of the chair. 138 00:15:36,690 --> 00:15:40,590 So there's always like a chair that, you know, sits in even online, 139 00:15:40,590 --> 00:15:48,120 and they were able to kind of explain properly what the process of these corrections meant and 140 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:54,540 which then after I was a bit more calm and not too worried about like I will get my Ph.D., 141 00:15:54,540 --> 00:16:00,540 but this is just what they require. And you know, at the end of the day, it makes it better at the end. 142 00:16:00,540 --> 00:16:09,140 So don't be like so disheartened when you feel like you have majorcorrections because the examiners at the end of the day do just want your best. 143 00:16:09,140 --> 00:16:18,190 They just wanted your best interests and will make a more stronger Ph.D. at the end of it. 144 00:16:18,190 --> 00:16:20,740 Yes, and I think that's really important what you just said there, 145 00:16:20,740 --> 00:16:25,930 because people do hear major corrections and they sort of shudder slightly because what 146 00:16:25,930 --> 00:16:30,400 they were imagining for major corrections is is a rewrite of the PhD essential 147 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:37,750 which is not in any way what it is and not you like you say, rightfully put it, it's much more to do with the time it takes. 148 00:16:37,750 --> 00:16:46,360 It will take you to do the work. And so because you get up to three months of minor corrections and up to six months for major. 149 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:53,560 So I wondered if you could say a little bit more about what your your corrections were, what kind of work that you had to do? 150 00:16:53,560 --> 00:17:01,210 Yeah. So yeah, like like you said, it was about the time. So I was given six months essentially and it was all on one chapter. 151 00:17:01,210 --> 00:17:05,350 It was one. I mean, I wrote six chapters and they were fine with the other six. 152 00:17:05,350 --> 00:17:13,930 But it was one chapter that they really wanted me to hone in on to get more kind of, you know, more kind of scholarly knowledge about the field. 153 00:17:13,930 --> 00:17:17,530 And it was it was a chapter on whiteness and whiteness in film. 154 00:17:17,530 --> 00:17:20,530 And of course, you know. 155 00:17:20,530 --> 00:17:29,110 This kind of day and age, you need to be up to date anyway with those, if you're going to kind of go to these kind of topics, say in itself 156 00:17:29,110 --> 00:17:32,290 That's what they told me to do. They gave me a list of books, 157 00:17:32,290 --> 00:17:46,030 a list of authors to go and resource and add those list of authors to my existing bibliography and add that already to the work I had already done. 158 00:17:46,030 --> 00:17:50,830 So it's important to note that it is having major corrections. It is the time. 159 00:17:50,830 --> 00:17:56,590 So, you know, by the time you get the resources six months goes quite quickly. Actually, in terms of resourcing, 160 00:17:56,590 --> 00:18:00,610 the authors going to different libraries getting the books you need and then 161 00:18:00,610 --> 00:18:05,200 taking the time to actually read through them and edit what you need and take in. 162 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,060 You know, just kind of shifting things around six months goes by really quickly. 163 00:18:10,060 --> 00:18:14,500 So it was really helpful to actually have those six months in three months. 164 00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:21,790 I think it would have been a bit of a scramble. And so with the major corrections on the six months timescale actually was very helpful. 165 00:18:21,790 --> 00:18:31,810 And yeah, just even my own like personal like health issues as well that help me also spread out more, 166 00:18:31,810 --> 00:18:35,980 especially for, you know, people that have kind of, you know, different things. 167 00:18:35,980 --> 00:18:43,960 Life is just really hectic sometimes. So having that extra time actually was a blessing because you were able to kind 168 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:49,810 of spread out a bit longer and make sure that you do the work properly and. 169 00:18:49,810 --> 00:18:54,310 You know, in the time they had given you so that was essentially what my corrections were 170 00:18:54,310 --> 00:19:01,190 was to add more and more kind of literary works to what I had already written. 171 00:19:01,190 --> 00:19:04,420 And so that is why I spent six months doing looking for the books, 172 00:19:04,420 --> 00:19:14,770 getting the books and reworking parts of that chapter that had now had all these new and more updated authors into them. 173 00:19:14,770 --> 00:19:23,140 Yeah. And so, you know, the overall from the sounds of it the corrections you had to do is to kind of further develop the literature and one chapter. 174 00:19:23,140 --> 00:19:28,270 But also it seems from what you're saying that they didn't just say that is the correction. 175 00:19:28,270 --> 00:19:32,860 They were actually very specific in what what they wanted you to read and to 176 00:19:32,860 --> 00:19:37,930 incorporate in developing the this kind of scholarly debate in that chapter. 177 00:19:37,930 --> 00:19:43,450 Could you say a little bit more about how prescriptive they were or weren't about what they wanted you to do? 178 00:19:43,450 --> 00:19:51,400 Yeah. Yes. So about a month after the Viva, the PhD report comes through 179 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:56,420 The report, of course, gives a very detailed description of what they wanted. 180 00:19:56,420 --> 00:19:59,290 So there was kind of one. 181 00:19:59,290 --> 00:20:09,100 You know, there's a few other things actually, apart from the one chapter they wanted me to say to add a bit more of my personal views. 182 00:20:09,100 --> 00:20:13,960 So kind of my own positionality in the research say kind of. 183 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:21,250 I mean, I did it and I added about like two, maybe three paragraphs, but they wanted more. 184 00:20:21,250 --> 00:20:28,630 And the thing is, it was really good because then I was able to actually sit down and write six extra pages talking about myself. 185 00:20:28,630 --> 00:20:38,710 Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, from three paragraphs to six pages of my positionality, which is what they wanted, you know? 186 00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:44,980 So at the end of the day, it makes, you know, like I said, the end result makes for a much stronger Ph.D. 187 00:20:44,980 --> 00:20:48,880 So that was the other thing that they wanted me to do apart from the chapter, but it was all very detailed. 188 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:54,130 It was like, you know, speak more about your positionality in this research 189 00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:58,180 And then kind of these are the authors that we'd like to add. 190 00:20:58,180 --> 00:21:03,790 You know, if you're going to talk about, you know, having more as well, you know, doing like, add more, you know, BAME authors. 191 00:21:03,790 --> 00:21:09,720 And they gave me names and books, specific books and authors to kind of go and seek out. 192 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:17,530 And so, you know, they were they were quite gracious in the fact that they were taken the time to actually say, 193 00:21:17,530 --> 00:21:23,650 OK, it's not just, you know, go and add more, but actually these are the books we want to see. 194 00:21:23,650 --> 00:21:31,510 And these are the names we want to see to make sure that you have kind of covered all the bases of what we had asked of you. 195 00:21:31,510 --> 00:21:35,620 So they were very detailed in that respect. 196 00:21:35,620 --> 00:21:39,100 And then, of course, you always get those are the major ones and then you always get, you know, 197 00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:45,700 the little kind of, you know, minor grammatical ones that they said there was not many of those. 198 00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:51,280 But, you know, they also add that to the overall report in terms of, you know, 199 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:57,890 you could have made the sentence a bit shorter here or ass a comment that there's kind of just like minor ones. 200 00:21:57,890 --> 00:22:04,870 And but overall, it was, you know, it was helpful to kind of just go through each point and say, 201 00:22:04,870 --> 00:22:10,360 OK, this is what they want and then kind of respond to that. 202 00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:13,960 And you know, there were there were moments where you could where, you know, 203 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:18,840 you could, I guess, kind of push back a bit and, you know, say to the examiners 204 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,900 You know what? This is what I meant when I said this kind of things like that. 205 00:22:22,900 --> 00:22:26,770 So, you know, it is, it is, you know, a dialogue anyway, that's going on. 206 00:22:26,770 --> 00:22:32,590 And at the end of the day, you know, like I said, they were all working towards the same goal, 207 00:22:32,590 --> 00:22:38,590 which is, you know, to have an end product that you will be proud of. 208 00:22:38,590 --> 00:22:43,360 Your supervisor will be proud of and the examiners themselves and will be just really happy to be like OK. 209 00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:46,960 They've done the work that they that we told them to do, and they've done it. 210 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:55,610 So yeah, that was just the main kind of process of just kind of going through that report step by step. 211 00:22:55,610 --> 00:23:01,090 And with that as well. And it was great because my supervisors also see they get a copy of the report as well. 212 00:23:01,090 --> 00:23:02,830 So, you know, for the next six months, 213 00:23:02,830 --> 00:23:11,590 it was just the three of us really just going through this report and making sure that we kind of ticked all the all the boxes that they wanted. 214 00:23:11,590 --> 00:23:15,190 So that was made easier because, you know, OK, wait, one, they want to this. 215 00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:20,590 Have we done that? yeah, they wanted this? Have we done that? So it was just, you know, an easy list, 216 00:23:20,590 --> 00:23:25,090 kind of just going through and make sure that you tick the boxes and then you could kind of submit 217 00:23:25,090 --> 00:23:30,740 this corrections with confidence knowing that you've answered all their questions. 218 00:23:30,740 --> 00:23:38,240 Yeah, and I think that was, you know, like you say, it's not it's it's not as generic as you need to develop the literature in this chapter, you know, 219 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:43,880 and it's not even as as as vague as you need to include more BAME authors, you know, 220 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:50,870 a list of people for you to go about and think about, including and I think that that's, you know, that's what's really important. 221 00:23:50,870 --> 00:23:56,060 And for people to know is that you're getting a level of specificity in this, 222 00:23:56,060 --> 00:24:02,380 they're going to be very, very clear and specific about what they what they want and need you to do. 223 00:24:02,380 --> 00:24:08,760 Yes, to enable you to get it to the level that. Will get your Ph.D. 224 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:14,040 What then happened with submitting those corrections? What was the process and how did you find out? 225 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:19,950 You know, whether or not they'd been approved yet? So the process again was pretty simple. 226 00:24:19,950 --> 00:24:24,960 It's pretty much the same way you'd submit it first time round. 227 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:30,210 You kind of submit that and try to just remember, did I submit? 228 00:24:30,210 --> 00:24:33,550 Yeah, I think I submitted one. 229 00:24:33,550 --> 00:24:44,770 With the comments say, I kind of did kind of two versions of that where I had one, where I'd kind of put the comments to say, OK. 230 00:24:44,770 --> 00:24:49,630 Page 12, Line 16. It was because that's how they were in the report. 231 00:24:49,630 --> 00:24:54,360 And I put that, Oh, I did this, that this author's now added. 232 00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:57,280 So I had all the list of all these comments in there 233 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:08,860 And then I also had another copy that had no comments, but the corrections were made, so I submitted the one anyway, just in case, 234 00:25:08,860 --> 00:25:16,040 as a backup, the one that had no comments and they just submitted it exactly the same way to a email address the same. 235 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:25,270 I submitted the first one and then it's kind of a waiting game there after. 236 00:25:25,270 --> 00:25:40,700 And then you kind of just get an email saying that you, you know, the examiners have reviewed your thesis and the exam board are happy to kind of. 237 00:25:40,700 --> 00:25:48,590 I guess, you know, award you with a Ph.D. and that's it for this episode. 238 00:25:48,590 --> 00:25:51,710 Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me. 239 00:25:51,710 --> 00:26:18,370 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

In this episode of R, D and the Inbetweens, I talk to Dr. Connor Horton, Dr. Daniela Lazaro Pancheco and Dr. Edward Mills about their experiences of doing minor corrections after their viva.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,220 --> 00:00:13,600 Hello and welcome to R, D and the in-betweens. 2 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:32,720 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:38,300 Hello, everyone. Welcome to the latest episode of R&D and the In-betweens. I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 4 00:00:38,300 --> 00:00:41,450 And today we've got another compilation episode for you. 5 00:00:41,450 --> 00:00:48,500 So a number of you have been asking to do an episode on corrections, so corrections after you've had your viva. 6 00:00:48,500 --> 00:00:55,520 So I have spoken to recent graduates about both minor and major corrections, and for this episode, 7 00:00:55,520 --> 00:01:00,500 I'm going to be talking to Connor, Daniela and Edward about their minor corrections. 8 00:01:00,500 --> 00:01:13,370 Yes, so my name is Connor. I used to study - well did a PhD in - cell biology at the university between 2015 and 2019, and then came out into the 9 00:01:13,370 --> 00:01:22,190 COVID 19 job market, and have now found a job in medical communications where I'm writing for an agency in London. 10 00:01:22,190 --> 00:01:28,060 So I guess the first question is: what was your viva experience like, 11 00:01:28,060 --> 00:01:37,800 and what did you get in terms of corrections afterwards? Yes, so my viva was actually a really good experience, actually. 12 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:43,410 I was always told that old adage, it's the only time that anyone's going to be really interested about your work, 13 00:01:43,410 --> 00:01:47,730 so you should enjoy it because you're never going to get as many questions about your work again. 14 00:01:47,730 --> 00:01:54,180 So, yeah, mine was was really good. I had a really good external assessor, and a good internal assessor. 15 00:01:54,180 --> 00:01:56,760 And I think the whole process took around two and a half to three hours. 16 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:02,940 So my viva corrections were minor corrections, which was which was good because you would have that. 17 00:02:02,940 --> 00:02:08,310 worry going in. You know, like how much am I going to have to actually don top of this? 18 00:02:08,310 --> 00:02:12,870 But it was really things like, you know, adding in more sections of things they wanted included. 19 00:02:12,870 --> 00:02:17,340 So I had to put those in, remove certain figures or change figure legends. 20 00:02:17,340 --> 00:02:23,310 And then most of it was kind of grammatical and yeah, just punctuation and capitals and things like that. 21 00:02:23,310 --> 00:02:27,450 So it wasn't actually too much, which was just great. Yeah. 22 00:02:27,450 --> 00:02:31,890 And I think that's reassuring for people to hear that minor really does mean minor. 23 00:02:31,890 --> 00:02:37,740 And you know, it's it's has to be stuff that can get done within within three months. 24 00:02:37,740 --> 00:02:41,310 But for many people, it's stuff that can be done within a couple of days. 25 00:02:41,310 --> 00:02:46,200 Yeah, when you see minor and you actually see what the revisions are, you're like, 'actually, it's not as bad as I thought it was going to be.' 26 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:54,510 So it's not as bad. And I was going to say, how were the revisions and the corrections communicated to you? 27 00:02:54,510 --> 00:02:57,830 So it was quite nerve racking when I went into my viva because of course, 28 00:02:57,830 --> 00:03:03,060 I did it in the time before COVID, where we did it all with physical copies and in person. 29 00:03:03,060 --> 00:03:08,820 And you see examiners come in with a copy of your thesis that is just absolutely covered in Post-it Notes and you're like, 30 00:03:08,820 --> 00:03:15,630 Oh my God, like, was there that much wrong with it? A lot of it is comments that they have or things that they want to touch upon. 31 00:03:15,630 --> 00:03:21,900 But I think when I received my final set of corrections, it very much was, you know, 32 00:03:21,900 --> 00:03:26,130 a kind of a table of how the whole thing went and my kind of like, 'overall 33 00:03:26,130 --> 00:03:30,330 satisfactory' or like the kind of comments that they had about the viva process. 34 00:03:30,330 --> 00:03:36,600 And then underneath was a list of like what page number there was and then what needed changing and what line and things like that. 35 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:42,370 So it's very much it's very quick to do because it corresponds to, yeah, it's two specific pages, 36 00:03:42,370 --> 00:03:48,420 so you can just quickly whizz through it and and find the bits that they're talking about and correct them. 37 00:03:48,420 --> 00:03:52,230 And I think, again, that's another thing that causes people anxiety, it's that sense of, well, 38 00:03:52,230 --> 00:03:57,180 you know, 'am I going to be in the dark about what it is they actually will want me to do?' 39 00:03:57,180 --> 00:04:06,660 whereas actually examiners tend to be pretty specific and prescriptive about what the changes are that they want to make. 40 00:04:06,660 --> 00:04:12,300 Yeah, I don't think it was unfair at all and what they said, and I think everything was quite clearly put across. 41 00:04:12,300 --> 00:04:19,530 But I think you've also got to remember that that they're not looking for excuses to fail you, that they're looking for a lot of reasons to pass you. 42 00:04:19,530 --> 00:04:24,180 And you know, they want you to do the best that you can. And that really came across in the discussions that we had. 43 00:04:24,180 --> 00:04:27,930 They were really encouraging and they really wanted to encourage a great discussion and really kind 44 00:04:27,930 --> 00:04:32,610 of tease into the knowledge that I had and allow it to come out and they're not trying to trick you, 45 00:04:32,610 --> 00:04:37,560 which I think is another thing. You know, a lot of people think that it's like a good cop bad cop routine when you go in. They were both, 46 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:42,030 you know, really pleasant in my experience, really wanted to talk about the science. 47 00:04:42,030 --> 00:04:47,370 And I think everything that they gave me was corrections was entirely fair. And yeah, they were incredibly transparent, which is good. 48 00:04:47,370 --> 00:04:57,470 So. And how did you approach that period or the kind of time you took to undertake those corrections? 49 00:04:57,470 --> 00:05:06,340 Did you just kind of print off a list and tick them off as you went through; you know, how did you actually go about it? 50 00:05:06,340 --> 00:05:14,530 Yes, so I think I did what most people did and came out the viva and was like, 'Oh my God, thank God, that's done.' 51 00:05:14,530 --> 00:05:18,520 My viva was in November, so I was very much like, 'Oh, 52 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:24,640 I'll have Christmas and I'll sit on these for a bit and you know, I'll do it in the in the new year.' 53 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:31,480 But I think it's fair to say as well that there was an element of burnout that I was kind of experiencing after my Ph.D. 54 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,160 I think like, 55 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:43,120 you're always operating at incredibly high level for (I think my PhD was four years) and you're always operating at maximum capacity. 56 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,620 And yeah, you get you finally finish and, you know, everyone tells you, oh, 57 00:05:47,620 --> 00:05:52,960 you got to submit your thesis and then you submit your thesis and then you'vew gotta have a viva and then you have your viva, 58 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,280 And even then it's it's still not over. 59 00:05:55,280 --> 00:06:02,590 So mentally, it was kind of like, 'when is the final bits?', you know, and when you get to the corrections, that is very much the final section. 60 00:06:02,590 --> 00:06:09,490 But I think mentally for me is just never really see the end in sight because every time you have an ending, there's another bit to be done. 61 00:06:09,490 --> 00:06:14,500 And so to approach the corrections, yeah, I had the list, went through, 62 00:06:14,500 --> 00:06:20,320 ticked them off, mase sure that everything was like absolutely perfect before sending it back. 63 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:26,740 And then even when you send them back, you're like, 'Oh, will my examiners agree with the corrections that I've made?' 64 00:06:26,740 --> 00:06:29,350 Or, you know, there's still an element of uncertainty. 65 00:06:29,350 --> 00:06:35,690 It wasn't until I actually got my certificate in the post that I could actually kind of relax a bit and be like, 'Oh, it's it's over.' 66 00:06:35,690 --> 00:06:44,560 You know, it's done. And did you hear quite quickly that your corrections had been accepted? 67 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:50,860 The whole process was very quick, actually. So I submitted my thesis in September, my viva was in November. 68 00:06:50,860 --> 00:06:57,370 I submitted my corrections in January and I think a week later I got an email saying that it had been approved by the Senate of the university. 69 00:06:57,370 --> 00:06:59,350 And that a PhD would be awarded. 70 00:06:59,350 --> 00:07:06,250 So I kind of look back on that and I was like, I don't know why it took me so long to do that because it could have been done before the new year. 71 00:07:06,250 --> 00:07:09,100 But I think, yeah, you've got to have that kind of aspect of - mentally, 72 00:07:09,100 --> 00:07:13,020 You've also got to do what is right for you as well, and you have three months to turn them around. 73 00:07:13,020 --> 00:07:16,810 So. Yeah, and I think that's really, 74 00:07:16,810 --> 00:07:22,600 really important actually that you recognise that the kind of the impact of the burnout and that you've got three months, 75 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:27,070 it doesn't make any difference to anybody other than you, 76 00:07:27,070 --> 00:07:32,290 You know, if you submit within a week or within at the end, the end of those three months, 77 00:07:32,290 --> 00:07:39,790 it's how you manage your time depending on what other responsibilities you have or you know what other pressures you have, 78 00:07:39,790 --> 00:07:43,360 but also, you know your well-being. Yeah, exactly. 79 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:48,490 Yeah, that's probably a take-home message from this, I think, is, you know, look after yourself first. 80 00:07:48,490 --> 00:07:55,090 And I was very lucky to have supervisors that kind of agreed to me on that and very supportive for the whole process. 81 00:07:55,090 --> 00:08:04,450 My name is Daniella Pacheco. Right now, I work as a postdoctoral research assistant at the engineering department. 82 00:08:04,450 --> 00:08:11,860 My research is currently focussed on the study of the intervertebral disc in order to improve the testing 83 00:08:11,860 --> 00:08:21,040 for new therapies that eventually will lead to treat degeneration in the spine and low back pain. 84 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,510 So I did my viva back in 2019. 85 00:08:25,510 --> 00:08:29,140 It was quite a good experience, I would say. 86 00:08:29,140 --> 00:08:40,840 Fortunately, the outcome of my viva, I passed with minor corrections. Once we completed the viva and my viva lasted almost three hours, 87 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:49,450 I - they mentioned that they will send a report with all the notes and the recommendations for me to to make the corrections. 88 00:08:49,450 --> 00:08:59,380 And what I received was a very detailed list that was numbered with very specific parts to be corrected on my thesis. More than content, 89 00:08:59,380 --> 00:09:07,240 it was a week of editing, a week of going into more detail having some explanations and very little technical 90 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:13,600 corrections in terms of the content of what I wrote for my dissertation or for my thesis. 91 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,680 I waited around a month for my list of corrections. 92 00:09:17,680 --> 00:09:25,120 To be honest, I thought it was quite a long proces: I emailed asking when I'm going to receive this. 93 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:31,480 In that case is a little bit tricky as well because I was an international student back then. 94 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:37,360 So all these processes linked to my visa and my time started to apply or go back 95 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:43,810 to my country or where my - where I'm allowed to take any extra work as well. 96 00:09:43,810 --> 00:09:48,760 So time is also something that you should pay attention on. 97 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:53,230 If that's something that you worry about, like, you communicate that to your department. 98 00:09:53,230 --> 00:10:02,590 That's probably my recommendation there. So I received this document Word lwith, as I mentioned, a numbered list. In my case, 99 00:10:02,590 --> 00:10:12,930 There were around 20 lines or 20 corrections. As I mentioned before, they were very specific in terms of 'Line 16, 100 00:10:12,930 --> 00:10:22,860 Page - number of the page, number of the paragraph', and then a little bit description of what they wanted for that paragraph to change, 101 00:10:22,860 --> 00:10:25,380 for what they want, if they require more detail, 102 00:10:25,380 --> 00:10:35,470 if they want, if they say it wasn't clear enough that the content was okay based on their discussion on the viva, but it required some rewriting. 103 00:10:35,470 --> 00:10:38,620 And so are some rewording in some cases, 104 00:10:38,620 --> 00:10:47,140 they ask at part of my conclusions to add content and be more explicit on my suggestions or recommendations for future work. 105 00:10:47,140 --> 00:10:52,450 So I will say some of them were very editorial that were very easy to address. 106 00:10:52,450 --> 00:11:00,070 And in terms of content they were, they were quite descriptive of what they expected based on our discussion. 107 00:11:00,070 --> 00:11:04,810 I mentioned that there were around 20 corrections on this list. There were two pages in a Word 108 00:11:04,810 --> 00:11:10,390 Document, so even where there were quite a lot of corrections suggested there, 109 00:11:10,390 --> 00:11:15,640 They were easy to address and they were briefly but clearly descripted. 110 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,810 It took me around probably three hours to do the whole corrections. 111 00:11:19,810 --> 00:11:26,470 So in my case, it was very simple. Even when it took me three hours, which I was very glad, 112 00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:32,470 once the process - I spent a month before receiving a little a bit of stress and anxiety, 113 00:11:32,470 --> 00:11:37,510 and just thinking 'how long this is going to take?', even when I have three months and they were more than enough. 114 00:11:37,510 --> 00:11:45,490 And even because I was applying for different visas and I was checking where my opportunities were in terms of jobs, 115 00:11:45,490 --> 00:11:50,020 I waited till the last week to submit my corrections. 116 00:11:50,020 --> 00:11:56,500 So I sent the I sent the corrections to my internal examiner through an email. 117 00:11:56,500 --> 00:12:02,740 It was quite a very informal but clear process to follow there. Hello, my name is Edward Mills. 118 00:12:02,740 --> 00:12:12,860 I am a lecturer in medieval studies here at the University of Exeter, and I completed my viva in October 2020. 119 00:12:12,860 --> 00:12:18,770 So can you tell us a little bit about your corrections? So you got minor corrections, is that correct? 120 00:12:18,770 --> 00:12:20,390 That's correct, yes. Minor corrections. 121 00:12:20,390 --> 00:12:28,940 So first of all, can you tell us a little bit about how your examiners talked to you about your corrections in the viva? 122 00:12:28,940 --> 00:12:32,870 So my examiners gave me minor corrections at the end of viva life. 123 00:12:32,870 --> 00:12:41,600 They were very helpful actually in distinguishing, both in the viva and in the report they sent to me afterwards, thesis corrections 124 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:48,380 which would need to be completed in order for the thesis to be accepted on revision 125 00:12:48,380 --> 00:12:55,880 and then possible future corrections if the thesis were to be published as a book. 126 00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:05,870 They made it clear that the corrections to have the thesis accepted for the first part of those two were fairly minor, 127 00:13:05,870 --> 00:13:10,940 but they were clear from from the end of the thesis - from the end of the viva onwards. 128 00:13:10,940 --> 00:13:15,710 So when you say they were fairly minor (yep), can you elaborate on what that is? 129 00:13:15,710 --> 00:13:19,730 Because I think for a lot of people, until they go through it, 130 00:13:19,730 --> 00:13:24,470 They don't actually know what minor corrections entail. 131 00:13:24,470 --> 00:13:30,500 So minor corrections for me meant corrections that could be achieved within a period of about three months. 132 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:38,750 So my viva was in October, and I had until, I think, mid-January to actually submit those corrections. 133 00:13:38,750 --> 00:13:44,450 I'm actually looking now at the spreadsheet I made with all of the corrections that I was given on it. 134 00:13:44,450 --> 00:13:52,370 And they ranged from picking out particularly 135 00:13:52,370 --> 00:13:59,570 Unclear or problematic single phrases that I've used, so I've got one example here, which says simply, 136 00:13:59,570 --> 00:14:07,490 I've talked about 'reductive modern understandings', and I was asked to unpack that debate, make it a bit clearer what that precisely meant. 137 00:14:07,490 --> 00:14:17,000 Another example of something similar to that: I was asked to provide my definition of the term 'didactic', however broad it might be. 138 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,840 I just use that term and left it hanging. I was asked to clarify that slightly. 139 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:25,830 So we're talking about really, really specific things. 140 00:14:25,830 --> 00:14:31,920 Yes, I think everything in my minor corrections was within an individual chapter. 141 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:38,400 There was nothing that cuts across the board of chapters. And so how were these corrections communicated to you? 142 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,570 So in two ways, I think. The first was during the viva itself. 143 00:14:42,570 --> 00:14:51,270 I, it became clear as the examiners went through my thesis - and they did take a fairly linear approach during the viva - 144 00:14:51,270 --> 00:14:55,170 which bits they returned to and where I could probably expect comments. 145 00:14:55,170 --> 00:14:58,830 But the main way in which I got corrections was in the Examiner's report, 146 00:14:58,830 --> 00:15:05,310 which I received about three or four weeks after the viva. Which I should say is completely normal. 147 00:15:05,310 --> 00:15:12,280 Yes. It does take some time and your correction period. 148 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:17,340 Whatever it is, three months for minor, six months for major, et cetera, doesn't start until you get that report. 149 00:15:17,340 --> 00:15:22,060 It doesn't start on the day of the viva. It does make for a slightly nervous three weeks after the viva. 150 00:15:22,060 --> 00:15:27,760 Yes. Yes. Worth pointing out. But when I got the report back. 151 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,190 The thing that I noticed it was for me, it was a PDF document. 152 00:15:31,190 --> 00:15:36,310 And the thing that I noticed when I looked at it was it was - I was given effectively page reference, 153 00:15:36,310 --> 00:15:42,100 possibly a quote from my thesis and then a question. 154 00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:46,290 So for example, 'are you making assumptions here?' 155 00:15:46,290 --> 00:15:55,910 Question mark. And the expectation was for me to answer that question or clarify or resolve something that I left hanging. 156 00:15:55,910 --> 00:16:00,860 So there was nothing ambiguous about the corrections that they wanted you to do. 157 00:16:00,860 --> 00:16:07,250 No, they'd made it clear to me that I couldn't go back to them directly, but that I could go through my supervisor once. 158 00:16:07,250 --> 00:16:11,670 But I think, what I mean more is the list that they gave you. 159 00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:18,230 It's very clear what they expected you to do to. Resubmit and pass. 160 00:16:18,230 --> 00:16:21,560 Yes, I would. I think I was very fortunate in that respect. 161 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:28,580 And I think it's fair to say with with minor and major corrections, actually there is, you know, 162 00:16:28,580 --> 00:16:33,800 There's a level quite a level of specificity of what it is the examiners want you to do. 163 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:38,420 Yes, I've actually got one example here on the spreadsheet, which is perhaps a little detailed, 164 00:16:38,420 --> 00:16:42,830 but I'm going to give it because it's a really good example of a single minor correction. 165 00:16:42,830 --> 00:16:52,010 OK. So on Page 304, for example, the examiner has asked the question, 'French is indeed a language of court and cloister, 166 00:16:52,010 --> 00:16:59,120 But why does this make it ambivalent as a language?', which is a really specific and also a really good question. 167 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:06,040 And then I fixed that by changing the term from 'ambivalent' to 'polyvalent'. 168 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:14,020 That was an example of a super-specific correction. And so you mentioned a spreadsheet. 169 00:17:14,020 --> 00:17:18,950 Yes. So this is something about how you - how you managed and responded to your corrections. 170 00:17:18,950 --> 00:17:24,820 Could you tell us a little bit more about that? Yes. So the simple answer to that is: 171 00:17:24,820 --> 00:17:32,980 I went and made a spreadsheet because I noticed that all of my comments on things to fix came in the form of questions, 172 00:17:32,980 --> 00:17:38,980 I thought the easiest way of doing it would be to copy and paste the entire document 173 00:17:38,980 --> 00:17:45,100 into an Excel spreadsheet and break it up so that for each row in a spreadsheet, 174 00:17:45,100 --> 00:17:51,550 I would have a page reference, whether it was a minor correction for the thesis or future one, 175 00:17:51,550 --> 00:17:56,590 and I would focus on the kind of minor corrections for resubmission. 176 00:17:56,590 --> 00:18:06,700 I then had a box next to it, which said, 'changed?' with an X on it when I done that and then details as well. The details column said 177 00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:14,170 Something like, for example, 'added a note on Page 248 to clarify this' or 'fixed awkward phrasing.' 178 00:18:14,170 --> 00:18:22,120 And so was this just for your own benefit or was this something you had to submit, or ... I didn't have to submit it, actually, but I chose to. 179 00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:26,890 It was mainly for my own benefit so that I could make sure that I'd done everything. 180 00:18:26,890 --> 00:18:34,660 The other thing to note is that as I added a little bit of material (and I did tend to find that the process of making corrections involved 181 00:18:34,660 --> 00:18:41,050 adding a little bit of material to the thesis here and there), the page numbers would go out of whack. 182 00:18:41,050 --> 00:18:48,730 So it allowed me to say things like 'fixed awkward phrasing (brackets was on page 247 in the original; now page 249.) 183 00:18:48,730 --> 00:18:55,660 And that meant I could go and check things very quickly. I then made the decision when I was. 184 00:18:55,660 --> 00:19:00,430 Resubmitting - well, not resubmitting, when I was submitting the revised thesis, I should say, 185 00:19:00,430 --> 00:19:05,560 with the minor corrections incorporated - to send in the spreadsheet alongside it. 186 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:13,210 There's no requirement to do that, but I thought it might improve my chances of not being sent back again with corrections. 187 00:19:13,210 --> 00:19:22,330 And indeed I was actually told that my internal examiner very much appreciated that, specially because it made her life a lot easier. 188 00:19:22,330 --> 00:19:27,040 So that was my next question: so what happened when you'd done the corrections? 189 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:34,570 So when I'd done the corrections, there was a period of waiting. So you submitted them again, but just directly to the internal examiner, 190 00:19:34,570 --> 00:19:38,830 was that correct? I actually submitted them to the postgraduate administration team. 191 00:19:38,830 --> 00:19:47,480 Yes. Rather than to the Examiner directly. It's their job then to to pass that on and indeed to manage the process. 192 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,660 And then you had another period of waiting. I did. 193 00:19:50,660 --> 00:19:57,290 I had a slightly longer period of waiting than the period between the the viva and the and the report, 194 00:19:57,290 --> 00:20:00,320 which is perhaps understandable because it's the way these things work. 195 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:10,340 Again, it's a perfectly normal thing because at some point your examiner, internal examiner, needs to sit down and read the corrections. 196 00:20:10,340 --> 00:20:19,310 And, you know, depending on how minor they are, you know, even if you know they are the kind of things that you're talking about, 197 00:20:19,310 --> 00:20:24,680 it will take some time for them to read and digest and reflect. 198 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,100 And so it's not something that can be done kind of ad hoc. 199 00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:32,450 It's something that they need to kind of focus on. So sometimes it will take a few weeks to get back to you, 200 00:20:32,450 --> 00:20:38,240 although it might be worth thinking about how you can make your life easier for your internal examiners if that one of reviewing it, 201 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:43,130 such as, for example, with a spreadsheet, because that would help the internal examiner to track their progress as well. 202 00:20:43,130 --> 00:20:46,130 And that may have from a purely selfish perspective made them a little better 203 00:20:46,130 --> 00:20:50,150 disposed towards me while they were making those comments on the corrections. 204 00:20:50,150 --> 00:20:53,570 I'm yeah, I'm not sure it can influence their decision, but it shouldn't - 205 00:20:53,570 --> 00:21:03,570 But it for certain can't hurt. Exactly. So. So how did you find out that the corrections have been approved? Via email, 206 00:21:03,570 --> 00:21:11,040 Actually! I got an email saying that my corrections had been approved and I had been recommended for an award. 207 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:18,900 Effectively the the next meeting of the appropriate committee would review things and hopefully approve it. 208 00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:24,180 That went through, I think, on something like the 8th or the 9th of February. 209 00:21:24,180 --> 00:21:28,230 And then on the 11th my birthday, I actually got confirmation. 210 00:21:28,230 --> 00:21:32,310 I got the infamous email that begins 'Dear Doctor Surname'. 211 00:21:32,310 --> 00:21:37,230 So 'Dear Dr. Mills'. What a birthday present! I know, right? 212 00:21:37,230 --> 00:21:46,980 Thank you so much to Connor, Daniella and Edward for their time and insight into their process of receiving and doing their minor corrections. 213 00:21:46,980 --> 00:21:51,750 But of course, minor corrections is only part of the story. 214 00:21:51,750 --> 00:22:00,750 In our next episode, we'll be talking to researchers about the process of doing major corrections. And that's it for this episode. 215 00:22:00,750 --> 00:22:03,900 Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe, and join me 216 00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:30,552 next time, where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers, development, and everything in between.  

Are you just starting out with qualitative research? Or perhaps you have experience in other forms of qualitative research but want to learn a bit more about Thematic Analysis specifically? You've come to the right place. In this podcast we (three early career researchers) talk about our understanding and experiences of conducting Thematic Analysis (TA) with the help of NVivo Software. We delve under the umbrella term of TA to ask, what is TA? Why did it appeal to our different research projects? And, of course, no research project is complete without a few stumbling blocks along the way, so we talk about those as well.   To polish off and add a little extra shine to the podcast we include a short interview with Dr. Katherine Ashbullby, Lecturer in Psychology at the University of Exeter, who shares her knowledge and experience of TA with the benefit of her experience in the field.   Resources NVivo QSR International (2021) For more information about NVivo and a range of training resources visit the NVivo website: https://www.qsrinternational.com/nvivo-qualitative-data-analysis-software/home/   Sandelowski M, Barroso J. (2003) Classifying the findings in qualitative studies. Qual Health Res. 13(7):905–923.   Braun V, Clarke, V (2019) Reflecting on reflexive thematic analysis, Qualitative Research in Sport, Exercise and Health, 11:4, 589-597, DOI 10.1080/2159676X.2019.1628806  [this paper was referred to as ‘the 2016 one' by Emily in the podcast]   Braun V, Clarke V. (2021) Can I use TA? Should I use TA? Should I not use TA? Comparing reflexive thematic analysis and other pattern-based qualitative analytic approaches. Couns Psychother Res.;21:37–47. https://doi.org/10.1002/capr.12360   Victoria Clarke has tweeted a useful twitter thread on the Big Q/small q qualitative distinction, which be accessed through the following link:  https://twitter.com/drvicclarke/status/1444258228439764993?s=20    YouTube videos by Victoria Clarke on Thematic Analysis: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLBw6Qig8KBId9YuIMzAg7w   Kiger M.E., Varpio L. (2020) Thematic analysis of qualitative data: AMEE Guide No. 131, Medical Teacher, 42:8, 846-854, DOI: 10.1080/0142159X.2020.1755030   Contact and Feedback This podcast is supported by the GW4 institutions – Bristol, Bath, Cardiff, and Exeter – as part of their NVivo Resource Development project, a pool of resources for researchers wishing to get started with NVivo software.   We hope that you enjoyed our podcast. We'd love to hear how you found it. Share your feedback with any of the GW4 doctoral college Twitter accounts: @ExeterDoctoral              @DoctoralBath                   @bristoldc   Thank you for listening! A big thank you from us, Ailsa Naismith, Merve Mollaahmetoglu and Emily Taylor, for listening and we wish you all the best in your research endeavours.   Podcast transcript: 1 00:00:09,210 --> 00:00:20,730 Hello and welcome to R, D and the In Betweens, a fortnightly podcast where we talk to guests about research, development and everything in between. 2 00:00:20,730 --> 00:00:31,380 This week is a special episode with three guest hosts, Ailsa Merve and Emily from the University of Bristol and Exeter. 3 00:00:31,380 --> 00:00:39,050 You're listening to a podcast on thematic analysis and how to tease meaning from qualitative data. 4 00:00:39,050 --> 00:00:41,960 If you're interested about thematic analysis, 5 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:50,480 keep listening for some insights from three researchers from the University of Exeter and Bristol who have been through the process. 6 00:00:50,480 --> 00:00:58,160 We're also going to hear a little bit from an expert on thematic analysis who shares their key tips on the process. 7 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:03,380 I'm Ailsa and I work at Earth Sciences at the University of Bristol. 8 00:01:03,380 --> 00:01:13,400 I'm here with Merve working in psychology and Emily, who works in the College of Medicine and Health, and both are at the University of Exeter. 9 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,940 Hi there. Hi. Great. 10 00:01:17,940 --> 00:01:24,230 So lovely to chat today. And let's make some introductions. 11 00:01:24,230 --> 00:01:33,590 I myself am a volcanologist, and I started using thematic analysis to study how people remember past volcanic eruptions. 12 00:01:33,590 --> 00:01:41,930 How did both of you get into the topic from what backgrounds? Yes, my name is Merve and I'm in the psychology department. 13 00:01:41,930 --> 00:01:48,560 So I started using thematic analysis to understand experiences of people who were being ketamine for the treatment, 14 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,790 who were being given ketamine for the treatment of alcohol use disorders. 15 00:01:52,790 --> 00:02:02,240 Yeah. How about you? I'm Emily and I use thematic analysis for my project looking at independent and older people. 16 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:07,370 And this was a mixed method analysis. So I was using quantitative and qualitative data. 17 00:02:07,370 --> 00:02:13,860 So I found thematic analysis with some of its flexibility was really quite helpful for that. 18 00:02:13,860 --> 00:02:21,690 That's really interesting. It sounds like we're coming from very different backgrounds and using thematic analysis in different ways, 19 00:02:21,690 --> 00:02:35,220 but for those people who for those listeners who are not so familiar with thematic analysis, how would we define that message to them? 20 00:02:35,220 --> 00:02:36,480 That's a really good question. 21 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:45,420 And I think one thing to understand is that thematic analysis is not a single method, but it's used as an umbrella term for a family of methods. 22 00:02:45,420 --> 00:02:52,980 And as Emily mentioned, it can be flexible in both theoretically, but also in the way that it can be used with inductive. 23 00:02:52,980 --> 00:02:59,400 So data driven and deductive, so theory driven approaches and approaches to coding. 24 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:06,150 And it can also capture both semantics, explicit or latent implicit meanings and data. 25 00:03:06,150 --> 00:03:07,860 So what is actually thematic analysis? 26 00:03:07,860 --> 00:03:17,760 So it is a pattern based qualitative method and it's considered to belong to the phenomenological or experiential qualitative research tradition. 27 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:25,410 So it tries to understand exploration of participants subjective experiences and making sense of their. 28 00:03:25,410 --> 00:03:34,410 I think the only thing I can think to add is some people would say it's sort of in the middle in terms of descriptive vs. interpretive. 29 00:03:34,410 --> 00:03:38,830 Some people would argue it can go any place on the scale depending on how you use it. 30 00:03:38,830 --> 00:03:44,730 But I think it can you sort of sit in the middle? Yeah, and I definitely agree with that. 31 00:03:44,730 --> 00:03:51,570 And I think that ties in with what Merve says about it could be an inductive or deductive 32 00:03:51,570 --> 00:03:59,160 approach that you kind of start with a you start with a theory of what you're expecting to see. 33 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:03,990 And you might find that in your research you confirm that, or conversely, 34 00:04:03,990 --> 00:04:11,040 you might start with almost kind of no expectations of what you're going to find in your research. 35 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,900 And then you build up your themes as you as you go along. 36 00:04:15,900 --> 00:04:23,340 And I think that that is one of the really good things about thematic analysis, 37 00:04:23,340 --> 00:04:32,100 the flexibility that you mention, Emily and Merve, you use this term of pattern based methods. 38 00:04:32,100 --> 00:04:39,710 I'm kind of interested in that. How could you elaborate on that pattern based, similar pattern based? 39 00:04:39,710 --> 00:04:45,150 I'm referring to qualitative analysis methods that focus on analysing patterns 40 00:04:45,150 --> 00:04:50,170 of meaning across data items or cases and a qualitative qualitative data set. 41 00:04:50,170 --> 00:04:54,510 So what I mean by data items are cases. I'm referring to participants. 42 00:04:54,510 --> 00:05:03,960 So call it a thematic analysis is one approach, one pattern based approach that others, such as qualitative content analysis, 43 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:12,960 IPA, grounded theory, reflexive thematic analysis, the one I just mentioned, and also a pattern based discourse analysis. 44 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:19,590 I guess pattern based methods are different than other qualitative methods that examine, 45 00:05:19,590 --> 00:05:25,110 for example, the more fine grained or interactional work of speech, 46 00:05:25,110 --> 00:05:33,390 such as conversation, analysis, or it's also different from methods that focus on biographies or stories such as narrative analysis. 47 00:05:33,390 --> 00:05:40,980 So that's how we can distinguish thematic analysis from other types of qualitative analysis approaches. 48 00:05:40,980 --> 00:05:46,080 Emily, did you have anything to add? No. Again, I think you've put it really well. 49 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:58,320 I think one of the things about it being pattern based, so it also lends to it being a useful foundational tool for for other qualitative methods. 50 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:08,280 So grounded theory and an IPA, I think both kind of expand on and of some of the concepts of thematic analysis, 51 00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:14,320 although thematic analysis is definitelu argued as a standalone method in itself. 52 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:19,130 I just realised we haven't quite defined what it is, and for me, I initially forgot, 53 00:06:19,130 --> 00:06:24,850 well, not forgot, but it's quite a long road, so we should probably specify that. 54 00:06:24,850 --> 00:06:30,650 I think it's interpretative phenomenological analysis, just as a note to the listener. 55 00:06:30,650 --> 00:06:38,530 Yeah, good point. Very nicely pronounced. I'm always like shying away from saying it because it's such a long one. 56 00:06:38,530 --> 00:06:47,400 But yet when we say IPA, that's what we're referring to. Got you got you, not the IPA beer 57 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:52,240 That would be a great type of uh. I'd be very interested. Yeah. 58 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:58,150 Emily, I really liked what you picked up on in that thematic analysis can be kind of standalone, 59 00:06:58,150 --> 00:07:04,030 but it also is the foundation for a lot of different other types of analysis. 60 00:07:04,030 --> 00:07:10,990 I think that's really key and that for me in my research was something I instinctively felt. 61 00:07:10,990 --> 00:07:21,730 So I haven't done any other types of qualitative analysis than the analysis, but it kind of feels when you're doing it that it's so, 62 00:07:21,730 --> 00:07:27,970 so powerful and so flexible that you could really use it for and other other methods. 63 00:07:27,970 --> 00:07:35,500 And yeah, I wondered I mean, like I've said, I haven't done anything else apart from thematic analysis. 64 00:07:35,500 --> 00:07:47,350 But I wondered if you had both worked on some of these other methods that that you mentioned Merve and whether you wanted to kind of 65 00:07:47,350 --> 00:07:57,070 briefly elaborate on on how perhaps whether you liked them and whether thematic analysis itself really informed those other methods. 66 00:07:57,070 --> 00:08:06,820 So I will I am I have only really used thematic analysis, although I didn't really realise that it was counted as thematic analysis, 67 00:08:06,820 --> 00:08:10,570 because going back to the comment you made earlier is an umbrella term. 68 00:08:10,570 --> 00:08:18,340 So I actually use framework analysis, which if you go by and Clarke's definition, 69 00:08:18,340 --> 00:08:22,840 that would be counted as sort of a code book type of thematic analysis. 70 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:30,280 And so that's just it's not as rigid as another form, which is coding reliability, 71 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:40,660 which is very keen on having accurate codes that are repeatable and have different researchers. 72 00:08:40,660 --> 00:08:48,760 So that's kind of the key quality of coding reliability. And then you've got the bottom part version of reflexive analysis, 73 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:56,830 which is much more recognising the generation and and sending of the researcher and the impact to the researcher on things. 74 00:08:56,830 --> 00:09:02,530 So a code book, which is where mine sits this framework is sort of in between those two, 75 00:09:02,530 --> 00:09:09,220 because it does have a framework which has some sort of deductive codes coming in to start with. 76 00:09:09,220 --> 00:09:16,040 And for me that was useful because that related to the mixed methods sort of side of my project that I, 77 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:24,700 I did want to explore and sort of the more abstract and deeper kind of meanings within my studies. 78 00:09:24,700 --> 00:09:30,910 But I also needed to relate it to the quantitative work as well. So then use the deductive side for that. 79 00:09:30,910 --> 00:09:38,230 Mm hmm. That's so interesting, Emily. And I think that kind of brings us to a point that I wanted to mention about this, 80 00:09:38,230 --> 00:09:44,950 because we defined we said that thematic analysis is an umbrella term, but we haven't really quite defined what sits under that. 81 00:09:44,950 --> 00:09:51,280 And you refer to these sort of three main approaches within themantic analysis that Braun and Clark mentioned. 82 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,860 So, you know, you said the coding reliability approaches, 83 00:09:53,860 --> 00:10:03,870 the reflexive approaches and the codebook approaches with that continuum from coding reliability to reflexive themantic analysis. 84 00:10:03,870 --> 00:10:08,080 And, yeah, I think that's an important distinction to make. 85 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:13,930 And I think what I would add to that is that Braun and Clark refer to coding reliability. 86 00:10:13,930 --> 00:10:17,710 Thematic analysis is what's called a small q qualitative research. 87 00:10:17,710 --> 00:10:24,410 So when you use qualitative tools and techniques with a post positivist research values 88 00:10:24,410 --> 00:10:33,910 so sort of the research values that underpin quantitative research and emphasise sort of the objective and replicable knowledge as ideal, 89 00:10:33,910 --> 00:10:39,850 whereas the reflexive thematic analysis sits more within the big Q qualitative research 90 00:10:39,850 --> 00:10:45,640 which where qualitative research is not simply conceptualised as tools and techniques, 91 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,350 what that means is qualitative, both in terms of techniques but also values. 92 00:10:49,350 --> 00:10:55,150 So I think that's a really interesting discussion. Yeah, that is an interesting discussion, rather. 93 00:10:55,150 --> 00:11:01,120 And I wanted to ask you a bit more about that, because I still find some of these terms a bit confusing. 94 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:07,570 So you kind of said that the small q qualitative research is use qualitative tools, 95 00:11:07,570 --> 00:11:15,610 but you have values of, I'm guessing, understanding that there's maybe a objective truth out. 96 00:11:15,610 --> 00:11:16,750 There are things to learn, 97 00:11:16,750 --> 00:11:25,840 whereas the big Q qualitative would be both that you use the qualitative tools but also have a qualitative approach in that you say, 98 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:30,910 well, the truth is subjective and this is my interpretation of what you said, 99 00:11:30,910 --> 00:11:36,350 but perhaps you can elaborate because it's always it's good to hear in your own words. 100 00:11:36,350 --> 00:11:42,220 I've just got a note here that the big Q is around encompassing the philosophy and procedure. 101 00:11:42,220 --> 00:11:51,460 And so sort of what you were saying. Yeah, I guess the point to make here is that there's the what is referred to as small q qualitative research, 102 00:11:51,460 --> 00:11:56,830 which uses maybe the quantitative research values within a qualitative method. 103 00:11:56,830 --> 00:12:04,870 And then there's the big Q qualitative research which where the methods and the values are aligned in qualitative research. 104 00:12:04,870 --> 00:12:08,320 Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it actually. 105 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:15,670 And I guess you can see where you sit within this continuum of thematic analysis or qualitative research more generally, 106 00:12:15,670 --> 00:12:20,170 depending on what the needs of the research that you're conducting are. 107 00:12:20,170 --> 00:12:25,120 And I think the reference for that is from Sandelowski and Barroso in 2003, 108 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:29,200 just from reading this morning that we might be able to put that in the notes. 109 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,720 And you've also both mentioned Braun and Clarke. 110 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:39,190 So I think this would be this is a really key article to it, kind of in reference for people to be able to look back on. 111 00:12:39,190 --> 00:12:45,910 It seems that I think all of us have found that a really useful resource from our very different backgrounds. 112 00:12:45,910 --> 00:12:51,820 I think one of the really interesting things about Braun and Clark is that they do they have the original paper in 2006, 113 00:12:51,820 --> 00:12:56,610 but they have done lots of papers since and encourage you to read those papers because they. 114 00:12:56,610 --> 00:13:05,790 You reflect on what how they've learnt to learn from teaching about as well, and I think that makes and is really helpful, 115 00:13:05,790 --> 00:13:15,420 but also quite informative for a new researcher to realise actually there was all this reflection and all of this has gone before. 116 00:13:15,420 --> 00:13:22,710 Yeah, definitely, if you're just starting with qualitative research, don't just go and read their paper from 2006, that was 15 years ago. 117 00:13:22,710 --> 00:13:28,650 And there they have so many more papers come out since then that are really informative. 118 00:13:28,650 --> 00:13:33,210 So I think that's one of the most referenced papers in the whole world. 119 00:13:33,210 --> 00:13:35,580 I'm not entirely sure it's about hundred thousand times. 120 00:13:35,580 --> 00:13:43,540 But, you know, I think they also emphasise that things have moved on from the their understanding at that time. 121 00:13:43,540 --> 00:13:51,470 So I would definitely recommend reading some of their most recent papers, which we can link in the show notes as well. 122 00:13:51,470 --> 00:13:57,710 This is a mad numbers of references. Yeah, it's crazy, but it's also, I think, 123 00:13:57,710 --> 00:14:07,220 confidence building that these people who have written such a seminal resource have also shown that in their subsequent papers, 124 00:14:07,220 --> 00:14:09,260 they've been pretty reflexive. 125 00:14:09,260 --> 00:14:21,890 The because this is kind of a theme or a common feature of thematic analysis itself that's kind of going over and and refining looking back on. 126 00:14:21,890 --> 00:14:29,070 So to have some of the most prominent practitioners of it do it in their own work and in their own understanding, 127 00:14:29,070 --> 00:14:37,910 that's pretty, pretty great, I think. 128 00:14:37,910 --> 00:14:48,770 I just want to say one other aspect perhaps that we haven't discussed in terms of thematic analysis is, is the issue of method versus methodology. 129 00:14:48,770 --> 00:14:55,700 And I think before I started doing qualitative research, before I started being involved with qualitative research, 130 00:14:55,700 --> 00:14:59,210 I kind of assumed method and methodology were the same thing. 131 00:14:59,210 --> 00:15:07,110 So I kind of used interchangeably. But they actually refer to different things and I think it would be really useful for people to know. 132 00:15:07,110 --> 00:15:15,690 And so the way methodology is defined is that methodology refers to theoretically informed frameworks for research. 133 00:15:15,690 --> 00:15:21,470 So this include things like IPA discourse, analysis, and on the other hand, 134 00:15:21,470 --> 00:15:29,000 method refers to technically it's sort of not technically, theoretically independent tools and techniques such as thematic analysis. 135 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:38,630 So, you know, from the examples that we've given earlier about pattern based methods from pattern based methods and methodologies, 136 00:15:38,630 --> 00:15:45,140 thematic analysis and qualitative content analysis are are considered pattern based methods. 137 00:15:45,140 --> 00:15:54,020 So these offer people, researchers, tools and techniques that are either a theoretical or theoretically flexible in the case of thematic analysis, 138 00:15:54,020 --> 00:16:01,610 for example, and things like IPA, grounded theory, discourse, analysis, these are considered methodology. 139 00:16:01,610 --> 00:16:09,230 So these have theoretically informed framework's research. That's an important distinction to clarify for people. 140 00:16:09,230 --> 00:16:18,590 Yeah, Merve I think you nailed it. I mean, I, I still struggle with method versus methodology, but I think that's that's quite clear. 141 00:16:18,590 --> 00:16:22,630 And for me, it's kind of useful, you know, like what's in an ology 142 00:16:22,630 --> 00:16:34,700 Like, what's the difference that I think I think I mean, one one one thing that's just occurred to me as as you describe that Merve is that, 143 00:16:34,700 --> 00:16:40,010 you know, the set method, as I understand it, is theory. 144 00:16:40,010 --> 00:16:45,510 So you said it's the theoretically independent. So I could approach that with different research philosophies. 145 00:16:45,510 --> 00:16:53,240 Yes. And the methodology is is informed by a particular research philosophy. 146 00:16:53,240 --> 00:17:00,290 I think in a way like what Emily said was really helpful in understanding that themantic analysis is theoretically flexible because, you know, 147 00:17:00,290 --> 00:17:06,290 she said how she adapted it to suit the needs of her research project in the 148 00:17:06,290 --> 00:17:11,330 sense that she still needed things to be reliable and replicable in a sense. 149 00:17:11,330 --> 00:17:18,740 So she didn't use perhaps the reflexive thematic analysis, which doesn't necessarily concern itself with reliability. 150 00:17:18,740 --> 00:17:26,750 And it understands that themes are quite subjective. So it doesn't try to reduce that research researcher bias. 151 00:17:26,750 --> 00:17:33,360 So, you know, she's adopted the thematic analysis to her research values and philosophy. 152 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:35,430 Yeah. 153 00:17:35,430 --> 00:17:45,270 Yeah, yeah, I really I keep coming back to that that that thing you said the start, I believe, how you liked the flexibility of thematic analysis. 154 00:17:45,270 --> 00:17:52,030 And I also in my research, that was a really big pool for me because I had this this. 155 00:17:52,030 --> 00:17:56,580 Yeah, I just I just wanted to have a powerful tool that could do what I wanted it to do. 156 00:17:56,580 --> 00:18:08,760 So, yeah. And I wanted to ask if there were other other appeals of thematic analysis that really led you to choose it to to analyse your research. 157 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:16,830 That's a good question, I think. It sort of led me on to think of something else, which may not be quite answering the question, 158 00:18:16,830 --> 00:18:25,770 but I think it's sort of relevant and I don't want to ask again, I think it's a 2016 paper. 159 00:18:25,770 --> 00:18:32,970 They talk about and using it as a tool to be used flexibly, but also with knowingness. 160 00:18:32,970 --> 00:18:38,190 So and thinking about although it can be flexible with the very thinking about 161 00:18:38,190 --> 00:18:42,750 what I still think about what's underpinning it and how you're using that. 162 00:18:42,750 --> 00:18:46,650 And for me, this it just worked. 163 00:18:46,650 --> 00:18:52,470 And I think the conversation it was having going on in my research is looking 164 00:18:52,470 --> 00:18:58,440 at the quantitative and qualitative and how they speak to each other or not, 165 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:05,610 and the fact that I could use a guess sort of deductive and inductive within that analysis. 166 00:19:05,610 --> 00:19:09,150 And also the fact is looking at patterns so I can only see other patterns 167 00:19:09,150 --> 00:19:16,440 between the two types of data and what a contrast and just works well for me, 168 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:25,200 I think. Mm hmm. I think what I wanted to also say is something that Emily said is that it can do both. 169 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:33,930 It sort of sits between descriptive and analytical approaches. And again, that fits within more descriptive, more themantic approach, 170 00:19:33,930 --> 00:19:44,010 a systematic analysis versus more light and versus approaches that try to on the cover more detail and implicit meanings. 171 00:19:44,010 --> 00:19:49,410 So I think that's some other benefit of thematic analysis that you can sort of do both of those things with it. 172 00:19:49,410 --> 00:19:51,430 Yeah, yeah, I like that. 173 00:19:51,430 --> 00:19:59,790 So I imagine that if you're under covering a theme, a theme could be something that someone's kind of one of your, let's say, an interview. 174 00:19:59,790 --> 00:20:06,660 He says something that you say, well, this can't this text can be taken as read a descriptive theme or it's kind of 175 00:20:06,660 --> 00:20:11,850 the meaning behind the words is the kind of latent thing that you pick up. 176 00:20:11,850 --> 00:20:12,900 And yeah. 177 00:20:12,900 --> 00:20:21,510 Emily, from your your what you described, it sounds like you like the flexibility, but there was also some kind of structure underpinning it. 178 00:20:21,510 --> 00:20:25,710 So you didn't kind of just jump in and say, oh, I'm going to do whatever, 179 00:20:25,710 --> 00:20:31,350 but that you use thematci analysis to kind of marry that quantitative and qualitative analysis. 180 00:20:31,350 --> 00:20:46,860 And I really like that. I think that's. Yeah, a really, really positive thing of thematic analysis. 181 00:20:46,860 --> 00:20:56,440 So one thing I was going to go on to after that was that I think that we all use the software NVivo, for for thematic analysis. 182 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:07,530 And I wondered if you felt that it was easy to kind of marry the analysis of the different qualitative and quantitative data in NVivo 183 00:21:07,530 --> 00:21:14,980 And that's also a good question. It certainly works well, I think can be very for me, it works how I think. 184 00:21:14,980 --> 00:21:23,640 So if I had a word my interview transcripts in paper form, I would probably be highlighting and then putting little notes in the margin. 185 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:29,040 And actually, NVivo allows me to do that because I can highlight it and then make annotations. 186 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,540 Or if I'm actually thinking about organising it, I can highlight to encode it. 187 00:21:33,540 --> 00:21:39,130 And that works. I believe it's a quantitative code or a qualitative code. 188 00:21:39,130 --> 00:21:46,020 Yeah. So it just works for me. And the benefit of and we believe we're doing that on paper is that I can then 189 00:21:46,020 --> 00:21:50,340 take those bits that I've coded and move them around and look at them together. 190 00:21:50,340 --> 00:21:59,010 Hmm. I mean, it's a great tool, isn't it, because, you know, before computers and NVivo, I imagine people had to do this by hand. 191 00:21:59,010 --> 00:22:09,270 And I think they would print out the interviews and they would highlight cut and paste, move around, you know, the whole floor being covered by paper. 192 00:22:09,270 --> 00:22:14,460 And, you know, I guess in a way you might become more involved with your data, 193 00:22:14,460 --> 00:22:20,640 but it also is very difficult to manage and share with other people and also very prone to getting lost. 194 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,540 So and we were kind of does all of that in a computer system. 195 00:22:24,540 --> 00:22:31,710 And I think it's really helpful in terms of collaborating with people, because we know that, you know, in most qualitative research, 196 00:22:31,710 --> 00:22:36,780 interviews are coded by more than one people one person, one researcher, 197 00:22:36,780 --> 00:22:42,870 or even if it is just coded by you, you still probably want to share it with other people. 198 00:22:42,870 --> 00:22:46,410 So it's a great tool for facilitating facilitating that. 199 00:22:46,410 --> 00:22:49,500 Yeah. So there's a lot of tools around how to work with other people. 200 00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:57,970 And this is one of the tools that we've created for the for the enviable resources as part of the GW4 network. 201 00:22:57,970 --> 00:23:00,300 So if you are in one of those institutions, 202 00:23:00,300 --> 00:23:07,170 you will be able to access access some information about how to facilitate collaboration on NVivo as well, which we will link to at the end. 203 00:23:07,170 --> 00:23:08,190 Yeah, I love that. 204 00:23:08,190 --> 00:23:17,830 My personal experience I remember the first my very first getting into thematic analysis and having only three interviews to analyse, 205 00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:25,020 but the transcripts werfe each like 20 pages long. And before I got to use NVivo, I was just like, you know, writing down texts and stuff. 206 00:23:25,020 --> 00:23:32,190 And I had I think I had interesting themes, but it was like impossible to organise that or to get a sense of, 207 00:23:32,190 --> 00:23:40,290 you know, what was significant or what was just, you know, a kind of small idea, what could be descriptive. 208 00:23:40,290 --> 00:23:41,930 And I think in particular, 209 00:23:41,930 --> 00:23:52,530 the kind of latent themes for me were much harder to to to tease out and to understand when I just had big stacks of paper coming. 210 00:23:52,530 --> 00:24:06,090 And for me, uploading these transcripts into and being able to organise themes through notes and kind of linked them was like really a game changer. 211 00:24:06,090 --> 00:24:12,900 Yeah. Was it the same for you? Every. Yeah, yeah, there's a couple of things you said that it made me think I mean, 212 00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:16,510 I find it really helpful that you can sort of have everything in one place. 213 00:24:16,510 --> 00:24:25,710 You can have you can use memos to be to maybe reflexive memos or so you can have a project log, as almost, maybe your diary. 214 00:24:25,710 --> 00:24:27,630 And because I don't know if you're anything like me, 215 00:24:27,630 --> 00:24:34,440 but we have bits of paper everywhere that have little notes that you can have it all on and NVivo, which is quite handy. 216 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:44,310 And also, um, I'm a very visual thinker. So some of the visualisation tools, that computer has had been really helpful, I think. 217 00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:46,560 Mm hmm. Yeah, I was just about to mention that. 218 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:52,530 And I think another really cool tool is if you're using thematic analysis with a more quantitative approach, 219 00:24:52,530 --> 00:24:56,670 let's say you can run coding comparison a query. 220 00:24:56,670 --> 00:25:04,800 So if you have multiple people coding on the same project, you can automatically compare how much do they agree in terms of their coding? 221 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,850 And you can highlight differences and you can highlight areas where they disagree. 222 00:25:08,850 --> 00:25:15,060 But it can be really useful tool to enable comparisons of integrated reliability and things like that. 223 00:25:15,060 --> 00:25:22,710 That's really useful to know because I have only ever coded as a I've only ever 224 00:25:22,710 --> 00:25:29,940 coded so low that going forward it could be a really useful thing to be able to, 225 00:25:29,940 --> 00:25:38,880 again, kind of reflect on whether these systems are robust, if other researchers involved are kind of seeing those who are picking them out. 226 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:44,490 And if not, then there's an interesting dialogue to be had there with other researchers. 227 00:25:44,490 --> 00:25:48,600 And yeah, but I have I have also used the visualisation tools. 228 00:25:48,600 --> 00:26:00,020 I don't know if both of you use, but I'm a particular fan of the word clouds. 229 00:26:00,020 --> 00:26:06,470 I mean, talking about, you know, we've talked a lot about all the benefits of thematic analysis, 230 00:26:06,470 --> 00:26:15,140 and I think listeners will be able to tell that we're all fans. But I know that with everything there comes some challenges. 231 00:26:15,140 --> 00:26:26,330 And for instance, I found initially that it was quite difficult to know how much significance to ascribe to a theme that was emerging in my data. 232 00:26:26,330 --> 00:26:34,400 And I wanted to ask you both, you know, any particular challenges that you've come across while doing thematic analysis? 233 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:43,340 Yeah, I think that's a good point about describing how much weight to ascribe to the different bits of coding, 234 00:26:43,340 --> 00:26:48,620 and especially where we've talked about coming from Quantitative maybe a more quantitative background where 235 00:26:48,620 --> 00:26:54,200 you may be looking at Frequency's and things like that and actually realising that in thematic analysis, 236 00:26:54,200 --> 00:27:01,490 actually some of the very important and possibly the richest themes can be ones that don't appear all that often. 237 00:27:01,490 --> 00:27:03,860 But they they're really potent when they do. 238 00:27:03,860 --> 00:27:11,540 And they might also encourage you to explore a bit more into the other of the transcripts as well to see whether it does actually come up. 239 00:27:11,540 --> 00:27:16,760 It might just have been a bit more subtle than some of the others. That's really interesting. 240 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:27,050 I guess for me, one of the challenges was getting my head around sort of this distinction between what's referred to as themes and domain summaries, 241 00:27:27,050 --> 00:27:34,640 especially within reflexive thematic analysis. So now now I do understand what domain summaries are. 242 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:41,840 So domain summaries are basically a summary of what's been said, everything that's been said about a particular topic. 243 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:46,670 So, for example, if I asked the participants a question, I might have asked something like, 244 00:27:46,670 --> 00:27:50,660 what are some of the negative experiences you've had with this treatment? 245 00:27:50,660 --> 00:27:55,280 And if I just summarise everything that said, that would be a domain summary, 246 00:27:55,280 --> 00:28:00,080 but it doesn't actually uncover the latents meanings behind what they've said. 247 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:05,360 So the themes now I understand within reflect systematic analysis. 248 00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:14,780 The themes are sort of uniting the more implicit and or latent meanings behind what people have said, not just summarising what everyone has said. 249 00:28:14,780 --> 00:28:20,810 So, for example, a list of people have reported these as negative effects of the treatment sort of thing. 250 00:28:20,810 --> 00:28:31,460 So initially that was quite a challenge for me. But again, there are some useful resources around this as well, which we can link to. 251 00:28:31,460 --> 00:28:34,640 We're going to have so many links in the show. Great. 252 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:49,190 Yeah, I think one other challenge I had starting off with is that I had some research questions that I think were led by my my certain approach, 253 00:28:49,190 --> 00:29:00,860 feeling that I feeling that I when I was coding my data, I wasn't actually getting answers that matched particularly well to the questions. 254 00:29:00,860 --> 00:29:06,380 And so initially that that felt quite worrisome. 255 00:29:06,380 --> 00:29:16,580 And then I think that what was helpful was understanding that the the themes that were emerging could then inform the questions. 256 00:29:16,580 --> 00:29:23,410 And in my case, I was able to do more interviews to then kind of revise the question. 257 00:29:23,410 --> 00:29:26,180 So, again, it was that thing that, you know, 258 00:29:26,180 --> 00:29:34,850 just because the things didn't necessarily answer exactly the questions that I had posed, that didn't mean that they're wrong. 259 00:29:34,850 --> 00:29:40,850 It was a case of of kind of recasting things, you know, re re. 260 00:29:40,850 --> 00:29:46,460 Yeah, recreating things and reflecting to understand that things could change. 261 00:29:46,460 --> 00:29:54,170 So I'd say moving from a kind of fixed mindset of, you know, the my hypothesis is wrong, 262 00:29:54,170 --> 00:29:58,970 which as a as a natural scientist, that is kind of that is the approach that we take. 263 00:29:58,970 --> 00:30:04,010 And it's like a very ingrained thing that we don't really reflect on research philosophy at 264 00:30:04,010 --> 00:30:10,190 all to meeting something that was like a lot more reflective and a lot more understanding 265 00:30:10,190 --> 00:30:20,030 of the subjectivity of meaning and of experience that I think is really key to thematic 266 00:30:20,030 --> 00:30:27,260 analysis and for me and maybe for you guys too really attractive to this kind of research. 267 00:30:27,260 --> 00:30:34,400 And I think in a way, what you're saying is that your research questions were informed by your data as well, 268 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,570 rather than the other way around, which usually is the case with quantitative research. 269 00:30:38,570 --> 00:30:44,360 You have a theory which informs the research questions and then you get the data to support or not supported, 270 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:50,490 whereas here you got some data and that led you to revise your research questions. 271 00:30:50,490 --> 00:31:01,200 Yes, exactly. Nail on the head. And that is a really exciting for me everything exciting new ways to do research. 272 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:09,020 Yeah. I think one one interesting thing about qualitative research generally is that it can generate a lot of hypotheses. 273 00:31:09,020 --> 00:31:17,240 Right. So I think that's one of the things that I've enjoyed so much about being involved in qualitative research is that you get such a deep insight 274 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:26,450 into a topic and it can sort of generate more questions for research that either you answer with qualitative or with quantitative research. 275 00:31:26,450 --> 00:31:36,170 Yeah, I think, you know, so your example was sort of just thinking about deductive and inductive that the deductive is it can be very useful 276 00:31:36,170 --> 00:31:42,080 sometimes to kind of if you really need to pinpoint a particular aspect and you've got that in your question. 277 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:50,090 But actually the inductive has that place to explore a bit further and may deviate from actually what that initial question was. 278 00:31:50,090 --> 00:31:52,580 But as you say, it's just that much more informative. 279 00:31:52,580 --> 00:32:01,610 And it's one of the I think one of the as it if it was one of the joys of qualitative research and how it can be really informative. 280 00:32:01,610 --> 00:32:06,560 You're so right. And it's it's cool to think of OK to think of it as an ongoing process. 281 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:17,180 I think that that it's not kind of done and dusted it can kind of continually we can continually learn more and ascribe more meaning. 282 00:32:17,180 --> 00:32:23,570 Absolutely. I think there's several cases where it's been, you know, actually, although there might be steps, 283 00:32:23,570 --> 00:32:33,020 I think one of the papers we're looking at gets six steps to to or I think it's the reflectivity. 284 00:32:33,020 --> 00:32:38,660 But actually, although it might be presented as six steps, though, things are very much you kind of go cyclical, 285 00:32:38,660 --> 00:32:47,750 you might get to step two and then have to go back to that one and you might just kind of keep reinforcing or learning more so it develops as you go, 286 00:32:47,750 --> 00:32:55,130 which I think is very important as well. And that is part of the adding depth and richness to to your data as well. 287 00:32:55,130 --> 00:33:01,670 Definitely, yeah. I think before we wrap up, I just wanted to add something that might be reassuring to people. 288 00:33:01,670 --> 00:33:09,380 You know, if you're sort of thinking, is thematic analysis the right choice for me or, you know, how do I choose a type of analysis? 289 00:33:09,380 --> 00:33:14,090 I think what I found really interesting reading in one of Braun and Clark's paper, 290 00:33:14,090 --> 00:33:17,730 they're basically that they have a wealth of knowledge in this area. 291 00:33:17,730 --> 00:33:24,740 So we refer to them a lot. But I think they say that considering and choosing an analytical approach is sort of more like 292 00:33:24,740 --> 00:33:29,810 deciding between which type of fruit you will choose to eat rather than deciding whether 293 00:33:29,810 --> 00:33:32,220 to have fruit a slice of cake or a burger. 294 00:33:32,220 --> 00:33:41,330 So they kind of emphasise that a lot of different pattern based methods for examples, for example, can have very similar outputs. 295 00:33:41,330 --> 00:33:47,690 So it is an important decision, but it's not choosing between an apple and a burger, 296 00:33:47,690 --> 00:33:53,940 but it's more choosing between the types of fruits, which I find quite a reassuring analogy. 297 00:33:53,940 --> 00:33:58,460 Yeah, I like that one. Yeah, great. For someone is indecisive as me. 298 00:33:58,460 --> 00:34:01,700 That's very helpful. Yeah. And I guess yeah. 299 00:34:01,700 --> 00:34:08,840 There's a lot of resources around how to choose between different types of different types of pattern based methodology, 300 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,010 methods or methodologies, and there are similarities and differences. 301 00:34:12,010 --> 00:34:21,560 So I think one of their papers was comparing thematic analysis to different types of other types of pattern based methods or methodology, 302 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,800 which can be quite useful for some people to read. So we will link that as well. 303 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:36,640 Definitely, we'll we'll put that in the show notes, and so I think we'll wrap up there because it's been a really lovely and informative 304 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:42,460 discussion and we've talked around various aspects of thematic analysis, 305 00:34:42,460 --> 00:34:48,820 how we first came to you to join it or how we first came to use it in our research and the the 306 00:34:48,820 --> 00:34:55,600 benefits and some of its challenges and also some of the definitions of thematic analysis. 307 00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:02,860 And for me, it's been a real pleasure to to host this and to share with you guys a really great discussion. 308 00:35:02,860 --> 00:35:09,960 So I'd like to thank both of you. Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's been really interesting talking to you both about this. 309 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,430 I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Oh, it's lovely. 310 00:35:13,430 --> 00:35:20,420 And, yeah, we've we've learnt a huge well, I personally learnt a huge amount and hope the listeners have to. 311 00:35:20,420 --> 00:35:25,940 But as we've said at various points through the podcast we have, 312 00:35:25,940 --> 00:35:32,810 we will include a link in links in the show, notes to all of the resources that we've mentioned. 313 00:35:32,810 --> 00:35:44,680 So, again, a huge thanks to Merve and Emily for our conversation. 314 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:50,980 I have Dr. Kat Ashbullby with me right now. She's a lecturer in psychology at the University of Exeter. 315 00:35:50,980 --> 00:35:55,990 Kat, would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself? Hi, thank you so much for having me. 316 00:35:55,990 --> 00:36:02,770 So, yeah, so I'm a lecturer in psychology at the university and I did all my training at Exeter as well. 317 00:36:02,770 --> 00:36:05,830 And I'm really interested in qualitative methods. 318 00:36:05,830 --> 00:36:13,180 A lot of my research has involved qualitative work and my background is in something called economic psychology, 319 00:36:13,180 --> 00:36:17,830 which is how people make decisions about everyday financial life. 320 00:36:17,830 --> 00:36:22,150 So things like spending behaviour, saving behaviour, money and relationships. 321 00:36:22,150 --> 00:36:29,530 And then after my PhD, I worked in outside academia in a charity as well, doing research about health and wellbeing at work. 322 00:36:29,530 --> 00:36:34,360 So I've had an opportunity to work in different areas using qualitative research. 323 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:39,520 Yeah, great. And the way we know each other is obviously you've been really helpful in our qualitative 324 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:47,140 project and you have a lot more expertise in this topic than I do or any of us do. 325 00:36:47,140 --> 00:36:56,170 And so we have this we're having this podcast to give a bit of our resource to postgraduate researchers who want to get into qualitative research, 326 00:36:56,170 --> 00:37:02,680 specifically thematic analysis. And so we have had some definitions of thematic analysis. 327 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,280 But I wonder if you could give us like a brief definition in your own words? 328 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:16,450 Yeah, of course. A thematic analysis is perhaps best understood as like an umbrella term for different approaches to making sense of qualitative data. 329 00:37:16,450 --> 00:37:22,900 So there's some really nice resources that you can find online, actually, through Victoria Clarke, like on YouTube, for example, 330 00:37:22,900 --> 00:37:29,350 where she talks about the different types of thematic analysis that might be helpful for some of your sort of listeners to go to. 331 00:37:29,350 --> 00:37:37,330 But really, it's just the idea that you're making sense of qualitative data through identifying themes is the very sort of base level. 332 00:37:37,330 --> 00:37:40,600 But then when you go into it, that's kind of different ways of doing that, 333 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,280 whether you're doing it in terms of like what you might have heard of a code book, 334 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,180 thematic analysis, where you've got kind of the more a description already, 335 00:37:49,180 --> 00:37:57,160 even before you've looked at your data of what you might want to find or like what is this more reflexive organic approach where 336 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:03,880 you're much more open to the data when you're going through is on a line by line basis looking at what the people are saying. 337 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:09,160 So you've got no idea before you start what your what your findings will be. 338 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:14,770 And that's quite different to the kind of code book approach where you might already have an idea of what your themes would look like. 339 00:38:14,770 --> 00:38:20,290 So there are these kind of differences within it. But yes, it's all about making sense of qualitative data. 340 00:38:20,290 --> 00:38:29,440 So whether that be from interviews or focus groups or an online source, yeah, that's reassuring that it matches up with what we discussed. 341 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:36,610 Yeah, that's great. Thank you. And I guess our perspective in this podcast has been from three researchers have mainly trained in 342 00:38:36,610 --> 00:38:43,240 quantitative research methods and coming into qualitative research methods later on in our research journeys. 343 00:38:43,240 --> 00:38:45,370 So I wondered, in your experience, 344 00:38:45,370 --> 00:38:52,370 what are some of the common mistakes people might make when they're using thematic analysis, for example, in our position? 345 00:38:52,370 --> 00:38:56,950 Yeah. So I guess like from a positive starting point that is accessible, 346 00:38:56,950 --> 00:39:01,840 the masterclasses people from different backgrounds, I suppose there are like common, I guess, 347 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,280 mistakes people make in the it's getting used to like working in a completely different way, 348 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,980 isn't it, with the different kinds of language of research. 349 00:39:08,980 --> 00:39:16,870 So you're moving away from talking about kind of variables and control to talking about people's lived experiences. 350 00:39:16,870 --> 00:39:21,160 So I guess that's something that just people not aren't necessarily always used to, you know, 351 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:29,260 moving away from the research tradition that they've been in to kind of open their eyes to a new way of doing research in terms of make mistakes. 352 00:39:29,260 --> 00:39:33,940 I guess maybe, you know, like we've just talked about, that definition of thematic analysis, 353 00:39:33,940 --> 00:39:38,290 I guess sometimes is some lack of understanding that it can actually be this umbrella term, 354 00:39:38,290 --> 00:39:42,340 that there are quite different things that you can do as kind of one thing. 355 00:39:42,340 --> 00:39:47,530 So I guess familiarise yourself with the different approaches to try and doing a bit more reading around. 356 00:39:47,530 --> 00:39:55,420 It's really helpful, I guess, as well. Also, sometimes people maybe underestimate the amount of work involved. 357 00:39:55,420 --> 00:40:00,730 So and I guess you know yourself from having done it, some people think it's just quite, very quick that you just, 358 00:40:00,730 --> 00:40:05,950 you know, suddenly have these themes, whereas in reality, it's actually quite a lot of work, isn't it? 359 00:40:05,950 --> 00:40:11,230 First we'll get the transcription and then code the data and then this kind of intrusive nature that 360 00:40:11,230 --> 00:40:16,210 you're going back between the data and your codes and developing it and the work that goes into that. 361 00:40:16,210 --> 00:40:25,390 People might underestimate Definitely And I think especially with the reflexive analysis, there's a lot of interpretative work that's involved. 362 00:40:25,390 --> 00:40:29,470 And yeah, and perhaps I might have made the same mistake in that thinking. 363 00:40:29,470 --> 00:40:33,640 It was a lot more descriptive than. Yeah, it really is. 364 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,780 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So definitely. So I guess that's another one isn't it, that that kind of take. 365 00:40:37,780 --> 00:40:42,680 So people get to the stage where they kind of got this descriptive sort of piece about their. 366 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:47,380 That it's taking at the next level of them, putting those things together to say, first of all, my key findings, 367 00:40:47,380 --> 00:40:55,220 what does this mean in relation to my research question and Braun and Braun and Clark talk about the like, storybook theme. 368 00:40:55,220 --> 00:41:00,700 So that idea that you're really telling a story with your research first is kind of the bucket themes, 369 00:41:00,700 --> 00:41:04,270 which is more like just shoving everything in there that, you know. 370 00:41:04,270 --> 00:41:11,470 So it's kind of a storybook thing where you're trying to say, you know, what's really going on here with my with my findings. 371 00:41:11,470 --> 00:41:16,390 That's really interesting. It reminds me of something that we discussed when we were doing the qualitative 372 00:41:16,390 --> 00:41:21,490 analysis together about the difference between the domain summaries and the themes 373 00:41:21,490 --> 00:41:27,220 And I did mention this as one of the difficulties that I initially found with thematic in the podcast. 374 00:41:27,220 --> 00:41:33,370 But I wondered maybe if you can sort of give a more elaborate description of what that means. 375 00:41:33,370 --> 00:41:37,080 Yeah, I can try. Now, you did a really good job, though, with your paper, didn't you? 376 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:45,520 And so I think it was more like, you know, say with the Ketamine paper, you had, like, for example, all the different things that people experienced. 377 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:51,670 And and that's kind of if you're just writing that all down, that's kind of like what some people call like a domain summary. 378 00:41:51,670 --> 00:41:53,830 It's like all different things that happened. 379 00:41:53,830 --> 00:42:00,040 But then taking that next level was then looking at, OK, so maybe these were really contradictory things. 380 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:05,380 These are about transformation. So it's like then those labels of like contradiction or transformation, 381 00:42:05,380 --> 00:42:09,300 which then become your themes in themselves rather than the list of experiences. 382 00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:12,550 It's like taking in the next level. That makes sense. Yeah, yeah. 383 00:42:12,550 --> 00:42:16,360 That's a really good description. And so what would you advise? 384 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:23,560 I think you sort of answered this, but what would you advise quantitatively, researchers who are new to qualitative methods or thematic analysis? 385 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:29,680 Yeah, what I think doing some like, you know, more study or more reading, like I said, there's some really good online resources. 386 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:38,090 So Victoria Clarke has been really influential in, like, kind of defining and delineating what thematic analysis is. 387 00:42:38,090 --> 00:42:41,140 And she's got some really nice YouTube videos that are quite straightforward 388 00:42:41,140 --> 00:42:45,020 just to watch to introduce you to some of these things about thematic analysis. 389 00:42:45,020 --> 00:42:48,670 And there's also a lot of like papers around that as well that they've done recently, 390 00:42:48,670 --> 00:42:53,090 just talking about different stages of their analysis, I guess, as well. 391 00:42:53,090 --> 00:42:57,700 It's just about being open to a new way of working and a new kind of language 392 00:42:57,700 --> 00:43:03,100 of research where you're more interested in different people's viewpoints, different people's lived experiences. 393 00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:10,120 And it's not necessarily about the number of times somebody says something and trying to get out of that purely quantitative mindset. 394 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:15,460 It's as well as about, you know, the different range of experiences people are having and whether that's something that is 395 00:43:15,460 --> 00:43:19,810 interesting and meaningful to your research and could be taken forward to explore more. 396 00:43:19,810 --> 00:43:25,540 Certainly. I was just going to say it's hard to get out of the quantitative mindset initially because, you know, 397 00:43:25,540 --> 00:43:31,540 when we were first approaching it, we were trying to define how many times or how many participants have said a certain thing. 398 00:43:31,540 --> 00:43:39,220 But then you've explained to us, you know, actually that's not very useful way of approaching things in qualitative research, 399 00:43:39,220 --> 00:43:44,950 because just because half of the people in this interview said this doesn't mean that half of the 400 00:43:44,950 --> 00:43:51,670 people in the general public would say this or we're not approaching generalisability in the same way. 401 00:43:51,670 --> 00:43:56,530 Yeah, exactly. And the other thing that's really tricky, because obviously, if you use and say an in-depth interview, 402 00:43:56,530 --> 00:44:02,950 it might be that because obviously with a certain of certainly structured interviews, you don't always follow exactly the same interview questions. 403 00:44:02,950 --> 00:44:09,760 So it might be that some people had the opportunity because they were asked or it just went down the avenue to talk about their views on something. 404 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,500 So they expressed it, whereas the other people in the other half of interviews might have had the opportunity, say, 405 00:44:14,500 --> 00:44:17,950 rather than them not necessarily agreeing or bringing up as meaningful, 406 00:44:17,950 --> 00:44:21,850 it might not have just been part of the questions, whereas it was a questionnaire. 407 00:44:21,850 --> 00:44:25,780 Everybody's getting exactly the same things that you can kind of compare it. 408 00:44:25,780 --> 00:44:29,050 So I it's just getting used to that different way of thinking about things. 409 00:44:29,050 --> 00:44:36,250 But it is tricky because, you know, it can sometimes be interesting that every single person thinks something versus nobody. 410 00:44:36,250 --> 00:44:40,150 But, yeah, it's just getting that balance, isn't it, and thinking about it in a new way. 411 00:44:40,150 --> 00:44:41,950 Yeah, yeah, definitely. 412 00:44:41,950 --> 00:44:51,910 So if we were to think a little bit about our philosophical position before approaching a qualitative research or more specifically thematic analysis, 413 00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:56,440 do you think it's important to define this before starting with analysis? 414 00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:02,350 And what how would you define your philosophical position? That's really difficult question to ask. 415 00:45:02,350 --> 00:45:05,860 That's a very good yeah. So I think in terms of yeah, there's all these different words, 416 00:45:05,860 --> 00:45:11,560 people can get quite confused about the symbology and ontology and philosophy, philosophical positions. 417 00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:17,800 But I think a lot of it's about thinking about, OK, so what am I trying to find, am I like inductive? 418 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,550 So am I really driven by my data and what people are saying? 419 00:45:21,550 --> 00:45:26,750 The participants are saying and I'm quite open or am I more deductive and more theory based? 420 00:45:26,750 --> 00:45:34,420 So, for example, if I was doing a search, this is a nice paper that looks at social identity approach to food banks and social psychology. 421 00:45:34,420 --> 00:45:42,490 And so that would be very much like a theoretical theoretical basis where you you're very much looking for social identity that would help explain it. 422 00:45:42,490 --> 00:45:49,660 So I think they're having this different theoretical position, whether you're very much data driven or theory driven, 423 00:45:49,660 --> 00:45:53,350 can influence as well the questions that you ask people in your interview. 424 00:45:53,350 --> 00:46:00,880 So in some cases, you know, defining that in advance can be important, but it kind of depends on the stage that you get the data, 425 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:06,330 if you see what I mean, and other people, you know, use different kind of methods. 426 00:46:06,330 --> 00:46:12,640 So if you're using like this, we're talking about thematic analysis, for example, discourse analysis. 427 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,480 If you're looking at the way things are constructed in language versus you've got 428 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,980 like a more straightforward view of what the language is and what people say. 429 00:46:20,980 --> 00:46:28,240 And that's a more like essentialist position. I guess in the past that I've had more essentialist realist one and more inductive approach. 430 00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:31,660 So it's kind of you're just open to what the people are saying. 431 00:46:31,660 --> 00:46:37,520 And that's kind of a straightforward relationship between what they say and what you're writing. 432 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:43,750 But, yeah, I think just being aware that it's more complex than the being one type of thematic analysis of them, 433 00:46:43,750 --> 00:46:50,140 all these different positions that people take that can lead to quite different analyses and quite different results, 434 00:46:50,140 --> 00:46:53,570 I think is is beneficial really when you're doing the work. 435 00:46:53,570 --> 00:47:01,600 So and we talk specifically about small q and big Q, which feeds into these kind of debates as well. 436 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,800 So yeah, I was about to ask that. So yeah, that was something that we discussed. 437 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:12,500 And some are reading this idea between the big Q qualitative research versus small qq ualitative research. 438 00:47:12,500 --> 00:47:16,540 So I wondered, yeah. If you can tell us a little bit more about that. 439 00:47:16,540 --> 00:47:24,280 So that I think was Killoran Fine. And that comes into the idea that you're doing like a project from a so if you're doing a big key, 440 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:29,590 one is from like a qualitative background, a qualitative like philosophy. 441 00:47:29,590 --> 00:47:36,460 And your it's what broaden out talk about the organic reflexive one is like a big key one because you're just very 442 00:47:36,460 --> 00:47:42,190 open to all the participants are saying you don't think that you have to count the number of times things happen. 443 00:47:42,190 --> 00:47:51,370 It's very iterative. Your you know, you're recognising that the researcher as an analyst is very involved in interpreting the data, 444 00:47:51,370 --> 00:47:59,980 whereas like a small q one is much more in line with, like quantitative thinking, thinking that you'd have to maybe, you know, 445 00:47:59,980 --> 00:48:05,110 like a kind of more like a kind of qualitative content analysis where you were counting the number of times something 446 00:48:05,110 --> 00:48:11,440 happened that you had like an idea beforehand of what exactly you were going to count before you even saw the data. 447 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,290 You'd know what you were going to count or not, and then you'd count that thing. 448 00:48:14,290 --> 00:48:21,130 And that would be a much more small, cute sample because you're not really doing the research from a very qualitative philosophy in the sense that, 449 00:48:21,130 --> 00:48:26,440 you know, it's not so much about the participants lived experiences or being open to interpreting the findings. 450 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,180 It's much more like closed off, 451 00:48:28,180 --> 00:48:33,760 like a questionnaire would be something that is much it's like a much more quantitative way to do qualitative research. 452 00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:43,420 So that's kind of part of the divide, I think within and it's not necessarily bad to do small q that could be exactly what you need in a study, 453 00:48:43,420 --> 00:48:52,240 but it is recognising that it is a very different approach from having much more open questions in your interviews and be much more 454 00:48:52,240 --> 00:49:00,850 open to following kind of lines of enquiry from the participant versus is this much more kind of closed off way of of doing it? 455 00:49:00,850 --> 00:49:05,890 And I guess this kind of shows in terms of thematic analysis, different approach, 456 00:49:05,890 --> 00:49:12,190 a thematic analysis kind of set along different ends of this continuum from big Q to small q research, is that right? 457 00:49:12,190 --> 00:49:14,200 Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's what they talk about. 458 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:22,820 Some of the papers, this kind of codebook one or the more kind of content analysis or their reflexive organic one, which is like the big Q So it does. 459 00:49:22,820 --> 00:49:29,710 And that kind of middle that big ish q in the middle where you are some maybe predefined ideas in mind, 460 00:49:29,710 --> 00:49:36,400 but also you're open to what the participants are saying as well, which is kind of where I think the keramine paper sits in the middle. 461 00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:45,580 Yeah, I guess. Before we wrap up, do you have any other final thoughts or tips that you'd have for me, such as approaching qualitative research? 462 00:49:45,580 --> 00:49:48,220 Yeah, I guess just to be open to qualitative research, 463 00:49:48,220 --> 00:49:52,880 if you haven't done it before as a it's just I think most people that even if they haven't done it before, 464 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:58,150 they're going to say to do find it intrinsically really interesting finding out more about their experiences, 465 00:49:58,150 --> 00:50:02,680 because it you know, compared to the questionnaire studies where you just really can't get much information 466 00:50:02,680 --> 00:5

Last week I hit a wall, and had to admit I was expereincing burn out. So many of us have reached that stage due to the pandemic so it felt important to do a podcast episode on it. So, in this I talk to Sunday Blake all about burn out. Sunday was the President of the University of Exeter Student's Guild and has just joined the University's Strategic Delivery Unit - they know a thing or two about burn out. We aren't providing you with answers, as we both admit neither of us are very good at preventing burn out. But hopefully the discussion will resonate and provide some reassurance that your experience is valid and you are not alone. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,220 --> 00:00:15,850 Hello and welcome to R, D and the In Betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 2 00:00:15,850 --> 00:00:32,350 and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers, development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,350 --> 00:00:39,790 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D in the In Betweens for this episode, we're going to be talking about burnout. 4 00:00:39,790 --> 00:00:42,250 Why are we going to be talking about burnout? 5 00:00:42,250 --> 00:00:52,330 Because last week I hit a mental and physical wall and I know I'm not the only one that's ever experienced burnout. 6 00:00:52,330 --> 00:00:55,900 And I certainly know that I'm not the only one experiencing it right now. 7 00:00:55,900 --> 00:00:58,810 So it seemed a really good time to talk about it on the podcast. 8 00:00:58,810 --> 00:01:05,090 And I'm thrilled for this episode to be joined by a colleague and good friend Sunday Blake. 9 00:01:05,090 --> 00:01:10,610 So Sunday was until the end of last week, the president of the Student Guild. 10 00:01:10,610 --> 00:01:16,300 So the student union at the University of Exeter, and they were also the VP for postgraduates for a year before that. 11 00:01:16,300 --> 00:01:26,860 So they had a two term office. And Sunday has just joined the strategic delivery unit at the university and to work as a strategic advisor as well, 12 00:01:26,860 --> 00:01:30,440 and is an ideal person for me to talk to about burnout. 13 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,390 So I hope you enjoy this conversation. I hope it resonates with you. 14 00:01:34,390 --> 00:01:40,810 And I hope it perhaps reassures you that these experiences are normal and everything's going to be OK. 15 00:01:40,810 --> 00:01:52,450 So, yes, the idea was to chat about burnout because I hit a wall in the middle of last week after going back to campus for the first time. 16 00:01:52,450 --> 00:01:59,850 And my body and my mind just went, nope, yeah, this is this isn't good. 17 00:01:59,850 --> 00:02:12,920 I feel like your body goes before your mind goes. Like, I'm I've been in this body for three decades now, and I'm still like one more day do you know what I mean. 18 00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:22,250 And, you know, I don't think I'm the best guest actually to be on this podcast because I don't manage my own burnout, too. 19 00:02:22,250 --> 00:02:30,890 And that's the that's the thing. And like I was chatting to one of the PGRs about it because I said, oh, 20 00:02:30,890 --> 00:02:34,700 you know, on Friday, I took the day off as I've hit a wall and I'm going to take the day off. 21 00:02:34,700 --> 00:02:39,350 And they sent me a message on teams and I replied to it. And they were just like, what are you doing? 22 00:02:39,350 --> 00:02:48,710 Like you do? Yeah. I mean, I had got I got to a place where I was really quite good at kind of setting the boundaries because I, 23 00:02:48,710 --> 00:02:56,850 like, completely burnt out and had a breakdown back in twenty twelve and I'm sorry to hear that 24 00:02:56,850 --> 00:03:05,390 So it's okay. I mean it was, it was a big learning experience and it was the combination of so many different, so many different factors at the time. 25 00:03:05,390 --> 00:03:10,940 But like I learn a lot from that and I've been like on a on a journey ever since to try and kind 26 00:03:10,940 --> 00:03:15,020 of figure out how to put the right boundaries in place to make sure it doesn't happen again. 27 00:03:15,020 --> 00:03:19,910 So it's one of the reasons I stopped being an academic and I changed my job and moved to Devon. 28 00:03:19,910 --> 00:03:24,020 It was whole kind of right. What can I shift in my environment to make this work? And usually 29 00:03:24,020 --> 00:03:29,460 And I've been really good at managing that. But something about the pandemic has just. 30 00:03:29,460 --> 00:03:35,000 And not the early days of the pandemic, like since January, do you know 31 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:40,060 Well, I divide the pandemic up into like good, good times and bad times. 32 00:03:40,060 --> 00:03:49,800 When the pandemic when it first came in March, I was having a great time because I would go and sit my cats in between meetings. 33 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,120 All my laundry would get done. I haven't done laundry. I don't do laundry for weeks now. 34 00:03:54,120 --> 00:04:02,810 And the thing is, I keep a I blame myself for and I get angry at myself because I think you managed this really well in March. 35 00:04:02,810 --> 00:04:07,740 What, in March? Twenty twenty I should say. Not March this year. March. Ugh it has been so long hasn't it. 36 00:04:07,740 --> 00:04:17,070 You managed this really well. Why, why can't I try to almost like push myself to get back to how it was at the beginning when I was like I'm at home. 37 00:04:17,070 --> 00:04:23,430 I learnt to sew. By the way, I think I remember asking you which sewing machine to buy all this stuff. 38 00:04:23,430 --> 00:04:33,300 And now I just I just exist. And it's I don't know how long I'm going to bring this on for because I started a new job this week when I turned up. 39 00:04:33,300 --> 00:04:37,500 You know, I love it it is areally good job, and it's going to be amazing. 40 00:04:37,500 --> 00:04:43,110 But like, I walked into the office and they were like, oh, most people only come in two days a week, which is great. 41 00:04:43,110 --> 00:04:52,140 But I find that I get almost like I get burned out from, like, just seeing the same four walls every day. 42 00:04:52,140 --> 00:04:54,720 That makes sense. Yeah. 43 00:04:54,720 --> 00:05:00,810 I've literally just had a conversation with someone about this and saying about because I was I was really pleased because we were, 44 00:05:00,810 --> 00:05:05,760 because they were talking about us going back to work one day a week from next week. 45 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:11,100 But I would potentially be in an office with twenty eight people and I was really not comfortable with that. 46 00:05:11,100 --> 00:05:17,220 Yeah. But, you know, really lucky, really supportive managers who I've said, no, I can't do that. 47 00:05:17,220 --> 00:05:22,110 And of course you don't have to do that. You do what you do, what makes you feel comfortable. 48 00:05:22,110 --> 00:05:30,720 Nobody's going to pressure you, which is brilliant. But we were talking about it and I was saying, you know, it's a real it's real tear. 49 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:38,010 I'm really torn because in some ways, particularly somebody that's chronically ill, I feel really safe in my house at the moment. 50 00:05:38,010 --> 00:05:44,940 I feel like I am in control of this. I can control who's here and how distanced we are and all that sort of stuff. 51 00:05:44,940 --> 00:05:50,940 And like you say, I can just go if I'm kind of having a moment, I'm going to lie with the cats, just kind of chill out. 52 00:05:50,940 --> 00:05:54,100 But at the same time, it's driving me insane. 53 00:05:54,100 --> 00:06:02,290 And I know that my mental health is worse because I'm not interacting with people and different people and yeah, 54 00:06:02,290 --> 00:06:05,680 walking around campus, yeah, I picked up a stone on. 55 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:11,830 in lock down and I'm eating exactly the same. I'm not not change my diet, nothing like that. 56 00:06:11,830 --> 00:06:17,380 I know some people out on quite a lot of weight and they'll say because they eat when they're bored. I have been eating mainly the same stuff. 57 00:06:17,380 --> 00:06:25,060 In fact I under-eat, I forget to eat my meals because I back to back my meetings, which is bad, but I'm still put a stone on 58 00:06:25,060 --> 00:06:32,290 I cannot shift it because I'm not moving. I don't think that that's kind of like where I am at the moment with being burnt out. 59 00:06:32,290 --> 00:06:40,300 That's kind of where I've where I've got to kind of looking at, like you say, all of the things that this time, not even this time last year, 60 00:06:40,300 --> 00:06:46,810 I was finding it so much easier to manage and I was doing much more kind of in terms of 61 00:06:46,810 --> 00:06:52,600 hobbies and self care and spending lunchtimes outside when we had the nice weather. 62 00:06:52,600 --> 00:07:00,640 I'm not doing any of that now. It's just like you say, we've got so into this kind of back to back meetings because we can do that in a way 63 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,830 that we couldn't when we were doing things face to face and just kind of constant, 64 00:07:04,830 --> 00:07:10,240 constant work and constant worrying, constantly being on. And I think the like. 65 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:17,290 I heard quite a few people talk about the fact that so when we went into the pandemic in March last year, 66 00:07:17,290 --> 00:07:23,760 it was like, you know, our brains essentially went into fight or flight mode, you know, because that's I mean. 67 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:29,560 It's it's a it's a stress reaction. It's it keeps alert to my, you know, when there's a threat. 68 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:35,740 But the problem is we've never really come out of that. And so our limbic system is just completely overrun. 69 00:07:35,740 --> 00:07:40,930 Yeah. And the reason that so many people are struggling with the mental health and feeling burnt out, 70 00:07:40,930 --> 00:07:47,440 like I talk to no one at the moment, that isn't like the end of their tether with it. 71 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:54,280 I am. And it is like this is and it was a neurologist actually who had talked about it on a podcast. 72 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:59,500 And they were like, this is actually affecting our brains and the way that our brains function. 73 00:07:59,500 --> 00:08:08,710 Yeah, yeah. My therapist told me about this saying that it's like to do with your brain plasticity, like all brains, are really, really flexible. 74 00:08:08,710 --> 00:08:16,510 I don't know the terms, but basically like this is why cognitive behavioural therapy works, because you literally carve out new pathways of your brain. 75 00:08:16,510 --> 00:08:24,760 It changes physically changes. I, I mean, I said it when I overshare too much, but the beginning of the pandemic, I started fainting a lot. 76 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,890 Yeah. or collapsing and a lot of people are really worried about it. 77 00:08:28,890 --> 00:08:35,620 I was worried about it and it kind of annoyed actually, because it would happen at really inconvenient moments, stood in the queue at Poundland and stuff. 78 00:08:35,620 --> 00:08:40,090 And yeah, you know, they did so many tests on me they were doing blood pressure. 79 00:08:40,090 --> 00:08:43,000 They would do it everything. Like what could it be? They would ask me if I'm eating 80 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:47,590 I mean to be fair, I never eat enough, but like, I wasn't eating not enough to faint. 81 00:08:47,590 --> 00:08:55,180 And like basically the doctors and the psychiatrist put it down to the fact that I 82 00:08:55,180 --> 00:09:00,850 was going into shops and having to think about who was and wasn't wearing a mask, 83 00:09:00,850 --> 00:09:04,630 because this is before masks were mandatory, you know, because we went through, 84 00:09:04,630 --> 00:09:08,770 like, we went through like half year without them being mandatory, which is crazy. 85 00:09:08,770 --> 00:09:11,920 I know that they came in so late when you think about it. 86 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:16,120 So I was having to think who was wearing a mask because I was looking at what people picking up. 87 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:21,010 So I didn't pick it up because we didn't know if it was passed by surfaces or airborne. 88 00:09:21,010 --> 00:09:25,900 And I was having to calculate two metres, you know, all this stuff was going on. 89 00:09:25,900 --> 00:09:30,070 And basically it was just overloading my brain and my brain was going, you know, 90 00:09:30,070 --> 00:09:36,800 well, we could just turn off and I'd faint, which is crazy that that's the impact. 91 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:45,760 You feel like a lot of people are like that. When I'm walking around the shop, I don't know that I'm stressed, so I'm not walking around going. 92 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,750 I'm so stressed about the two metres and the masks. I'm not thinking that. 93 00:09:49,750 --> 00:10:00,610 But obviously I am somewhere. And I told you at the beginning of the phone call that obviously my right eye has burst or the blood vessels in it. 94 00:10:00,610 --> 00:10:09,350 And the doctors are like, yeah, that's your stress. But obviously I'm like, I don't wake up thinking, oh, I'm really stressed. 95 00:10:09,350 --> 00:10:16,630 And I think this is this is one of the really sinister things about stress is it doesn't have to be 96 00:10:16,630 --> 00:10:24,880 like a cognitive thought then it can actually just like be there like latent and dormant maybe. 97 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:32,650 But yeah, I think this is one of the things that the pandemic has really highlighted. 98 00:10:32,650 --> 00:10:40,390 Yeah. Is that we we actually don't we actually don't really understand on a on a layman's basis how 99 00:10:40,390 --> 00:10:45,460 much stress can have a negative impact on your body without even mentioning your mental health. 100 00:10:45,460 --> 00:10:50,620 You know, and I've I've been the same in particular over the past week, you know, family and friends. 101 00:10:50,620 --> 00:10:56,210 And I've been saying to me, you know, like what? What is it that's really bothering you and I'm like, it's it's not a thing. 102 00:10:56,210 --> 00:11:02,150 It's not like I'm sat churning over the state of the country or, you know, 103 00:11:02,150 --> 00:11:08,060 it's not a thing that I'm sat there thinking about or ruminating on or particularly anxious about. 104 00:11:08,060 --> 00:11:16,310 Yeah, it's this kind of whole picture. And I've I've had the same so I've been over the course of the pandemic, I developed a restless leg syndrome. 105 00:11:16,310 --> 00:11:20,270 So like it's a neurological thing that causes my legs to twitch and particularly 106 00:11:20,270 --> 00:11:24,320 when I'm trying to sleep so I can't sleep because my legs won't stop moving. 107 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:30,080 And the one I originally talked to the doctor about it back in January, 108 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:35,960 it's one of the it's one of those wonderful things that doesn't have kind of a known cause. 109 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:36,620 Yeah. 110 00:11:36,620 --> 00:11:47,330 And he's like, you would be surprised how many people are reporting very similar kinds of problems, not necessarily restless legs, but like you say, 111 00:11:47,330 --> 00:11:52,940 what you were saying with fainting and stuff that don't have an obvious cause are actually like he actually said to me at the time, 112 00:11:52,940 --> 00:11:58,760 like the likelihood is that this is a stress reaction. This is this is your body's way of reacting to the pandemic. 113 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:03,290 And I said at the time, but I'm not like I'm not actively worrying about it. 114 00:12:03,290 --> 00:12:08,360 And it's like it doesn't matter. You don't need to be your your body is responding to it. 115 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:21,800 And so I'm terrible for that because I, I tell myself stuff that stresses me out is really bad issue where I think that I'm really hard. 116 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:29,420 So I think I'm tough. And I actually think this is not good because I set myself almost like emotional, personal bests. 117 00:12:29,420 --> 00:12:33,410 So if I go through something really stressful and I'm like, you know what? 118 00:12:33,410 --> 00:12:40,460 Instead of going, that was really stressful, I hope I never had to go through that again. I'm like, well, at least I know I can handle something that's stressful. 119 00:12:40,460 --> 00:12:44,990 So do you know what i mean like it's when we see it as a as a well I've done it, so I can do it again. 120 00:12:44,990 --> 00:12:47,840 And actually I think that, I don't think that's a great way of looking at it. 121 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,110 I think you should be, I think you should be looking at it going Oh I did that. 122 00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:55,550 And it was horrible and I never want to do it again because I want to look after myself. 123 00:12:55,550 --> 00:13:04,760 But the I, I'm, I'm awful because I'm like, I'll tell myself I'm not stressed. 124 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:10,730 Like, I hate when stuff gets to me. I get annoyed at myself about it and I'm like, no, don't don't let it get to you. 125 00:13:10,730 --> 00:13:17,090 You're you're hard. And I think that because I because I don't give myself that time to be like, you know what? 126 00:13:17,090 --> 00:13:21,470 This is actually really impacted on me. Yeah. I think it just I think it hides away somewhere in my body. 127 00:13:21,470 --> 00:13:29,570 And then I end up. I know. Well, like I said, getting burned out or having a flare or something like that. 128 00:13:29,570 --> 00:13:33,740 Your blood vessels in your blood vessels in my eye burst 129 00:13:33,740 --> 00:13:36,410 Yeah, no, exactly. Exactly. 130 00:13:36,410 --> 00:13:45,380 And I actually I'm one of these people who I actually find relaxing stressful or meeting because I'm always got multitask when watching the TV. 131 00:13:45,380 --> 00:13:51,050 I'm also playing a game on my phone or I'm I'm the same or like I can't stop. 132 00:13:51,050 --> 00:13:58,850 And so, like you say, when you're like when I lay in the bath or read or have got to be on my phone or say, if I don't, I start to think. 133 00:13:58,850 --> 00:14:04,190 And if I start to think, I start to worry and find problems that aren't really problems. 134 00:14:04,190 --> 00:14:10,970 But it's like my brain. It's like, you know, like search, search out and what can I what can I get? 135 00:14:10,970 --> 00:14:16,970 Really anxious about. And I think, you know, it's it's a symptom of. Anxiety, anxiety. 136 00:14:16,970 --> 00:14:23,870 Yeah, but also, I think kind of like trauma and partly trauma from the. 137 00:14:23,870 --> 00:14:30,470 Pandemic and the impact of that, but also part of a longer term kind of, you know, 138 00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:35,650 back to childhood kind of trauma and all of that, where you're just kind of have this sense of. 139 00:14:35,650 --> 00:14:40,710 There's got to be something for me to worry about or something for me to be concerned about. 140 00:14:40,710 --> 00:14:47,910 Or panic about and so like that kind of switching off that apparently people can do. 141 00:14:47,910 --> 00:14:54,880 I'm not I'm not 100 percent sure. I believe they can, but I just my brain doesn't do it, just doesn't do it. 142 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:59,850 It well, the last time I switched off was August twenty nineteen. 143 00:14:59,850 --> 00:15:03,910 It's now like twenty twenty one like I. 144 00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:06,180 Yeah. So me and my partner, 145 00:15:06,180 --> 00:15:19,050 we went to Scotland and I remember I put the pictures up and basically we had no signal we stayed in a shepherds hut and the first couple of days was absolute agony. 146 00:15:19,050 --> 00:15:27,300 But actually I after a couple of days I ended up feeling like a sort of like like an inner peace, you know. 147 00:15:27,300 --> 00:15:33,330 Yeah. I have to have this stem of a similar thing happened to me in twenty sixteen. 148 00:15:33,330 --> 00:15:37,100 I went to a silent retreat for four days, but. 149 00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:48,540 Yeah. And you know what, like I was awful. I thought it was going to be boring but you end up just I can't describe it you haven't 150 00:15:48,540 --> 00:15:53,430 Spoken to anyone you ever see people around you, you go for walks meditation. 151 00:15:53,430 --> 00:16:00,300 Is has libraries. You can read and stuff. Yeah. And it's in a sort of big manor house, almost like a national trust. 152 00:16:00,300 --> 00:16:03,520 Beautiful location, like acres and acres of land. 153 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:12,540 And I cannot describe it, but you end up just happy, like not talking to anyone, you're not laughing with anyone and then you just have this happiness. 154 00:16:12,540 --> 00:16:24,450 And it's really difficult because I think when I'm at work, I get a lot of my I get a lot of my ego boost from being important 155 00:16:24,450 --> 00:16:28,030 Right. It's really important. You know, this is why I did elected roles. 156 00:16:28,030 --> 00:16:33,030 This is why I have quite public facing role, because it tends to be it sounds bad 157 00:16:33,030 --> 00:16:39,300 But like, I like to feel that I'm at the front of things, fixing things and doing stuff and serving my community, 158 00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:45,000 and I'm going to be serving my community, you know, and that's where I get my kicks from. 159 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:51,870 Yeah. And and I think I think that really, just to get really deep on the podcast, 160 00:16:51,870 --> 00:16:59,970 I think that I need to rewire my brain away from your valuable because you serve others. 161 00:16:59,970 --> 00:17:09,480 Yeah. To the way I am at the silent retreat, which is you literally just existing not talking to people, not impressing people, 162 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:14,880 just existing because they give you food and that you sleep in these amazing beds and stuff. 163 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:24,180 And I think I think what it does without without even speaking to you, the monks that live there is that they show you that you're all valuable. 164 00:17:24,180 --> 00:17:29,460 Yeah, literally. you're just existing because what you're doing is you're just breathing. 165 00:17:29,460 --> 00:17:34,620 And obviously when part of Scotland, we obviously were chatting to each other and stuff, 166 00:17:34,620 --> 00:17:39,360 but like, I would wake up, we'd get some food, we would go to like, you know, 167 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:45,930 some ruins or we'd go to like, you know, like a fairy fountain or one of the one of the beautiful places in Scotland, 168 00:17:45,930 --> 00:17:49,000 Inverness, Loch Ness, that sort of thing. Yeah. 169 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:58,590 And I think that's definitely something to do if all well being that if we can if we can just get away from 170 00:17:58,590 --> 00:18:06,000 all the things that make us valuable to other people and we can just exist and know that we are worthy, 171 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,960 I think that I think the people like you and me might find it better to relax, 172 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:16,680 because the anxiety for me is I'm not doing I'm not I'm not earning my place in the world by having a bath. 173 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:22,800 I'm not doing anything like that. Yeah, it's why, like all of my hobbies and all of my, like, relaxation stuff, 174 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:29,610 it's like I like I build lego and I sew because it's all productive, I have to feel like I'm being productive. 175 00:18:29,610 --> 00:18:34,980 And there's a sense of like contribution and like you, I'm I'm really driven in what I do about making, 176 00:18:34,980 --> 00:18:38,040 you know, making a difference and that being really important to me. 177 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:45,270 And like you say, you know, there is that really important thing to me that actually feeling valued and valuable to other people. 178 00:18:45,270 --> 00:18:52,830 But that is it's an incredibly exhausting way to sort of define yourself and define yourself worth. 179 00:18:52,830 --> 00:18:58,380 And I think that, like, so often with like research and being in academia, 180 00:18:58,380 --> 00:19:05,190 that kind of relationship to to something, whether it's to service or it's to your research or something like that, 181 00:19:05,190 --> 00:19:16,650 is so often the kind of driving force behind your identity that, like you say, actually then pulling away from that and relaxing and valuing yourself differently. 182 00:19:16,650 --> 00:19:20,220 And it sounds like from the silent retreat and in Scotland, 183 00:19:20,220 --> 00:19:30,630 it's that kind of actually really having to go through something quite difficult to push through and have it be really difficult. 184 00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:39,660 Yeah, it's difficult. Thank you so much to Sunday for taking the time out of their really busy schedule to talk to me about this, 185 00:19:39,660 --> 00:19:43,260 I think it's a really important topic right now. 186 00:19:43,260 --> 00:19:51,270 And so I know that we haven't really had our conversation, provided any answers, because, as we said, we're both really bad at this. 187 00:19:51,270 --> 00:19:59,250 But I think that that's the important message, is that. Dealing with these kind of things in these kind of stresses, particularly in the pandemic, 188 00:19:59,250 --> 00:20:08,400 it's really tough and we're all feeling this, so don't be too hard on yourself. 189 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:13,800 Take the breaks where you can and find the mechanisms that work for you. 190 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:19,020 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to, like, rate and subscribe and join me. 191 00:20:19,020 --> 00:20:45,640 Next time. We'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

In this episode of R, D and the Inbetweens, I talk to Dr. Ghee Bowman, Tracey Warren, Kensa Broadhurst, Laura Burnett and Catherine Queen about being a mature PGR - the benefits, the challenges, and what Universities need to do better.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,170 --> 00:00:15,800 Hello and welcome to R, D and the In Betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 2 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:32,210 and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers, development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,210 --> 00:00:36,170 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens. 4 00:00:36,170 --> 00:00:39,140 That's right. You are hearing my dulcet tones again. 5 00:00:39,140 --> 00:00:47,930 I am back after a three episode break where the wonderful Dr. Edward Mills guest hosted a few episodes for me. 6 00:00:47,930 --> 00:00:53,450 So in this episode, I'm going to be carrying on a conversation that started actually on Twitter. 7 00:00:53,450 --> 00:01:02,660 So a number of our PGRs raised issues with some of the support that's available at the university for them as mature PGRs. 8 00:01:02,660 --> 00:01:12,050 And so we thought it'd be really valuable to have a conversation about what it means to be a mature PGR, what that even is, what the challenges are, 9 00:01:12,050 --> 00:01:24,710 what the benefits are, and also what advice they have for any mature students who are thinking of starting or about to start a research degree. 10 00:01:24,710 --> 00:01:29,110 So let's start with introductions. Ghee and Tracey happy to go first. 11 00:01:29,110 --> 00:01:37,920 Hello, my name is Ghee Bowman. I finished my Ph.D. in history in well I submitted in September 2019. 12 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,810 I am now. I'll be sixty in two months. 13 00:01:41,810 --> 00:01:54,380 I came back to do a PhD as a relatively mature student because I found a story that really fascinated and intrigued me. 14 00:01:54,380 --> 00:02:00,770 Hi, I'm Tracey Warren. I did an EdD or I'm doing it. 15 00:02:00,770 --> 00:02:06,860 I submitted about four weeks ago, so I got my viva in three weeks. 16 00:02:06,860 --> 00:02:18,470 I was working in Abu Dhabi and Dubai when I started this journey, so I did it as a distance learning international student. 17 00:02:18,470 --> 00:02:21,080 That's great. Now, Catherine and Kensa. Hi. 18 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:30,770 Yeah, I, I've been working in private practise for over thirty years as a town planner and a landscape architect, 19 00:02:30,770 --> 00:02:34,160 and there was a real world problem that troubled me. 20 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:41,720 And I had the bright idea of coming back to university and actually doing a PhD to try and answer the question that I had in my mind. 21 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:50,330 So I actually applied for a Ph.D. that was advertised, fully funded and with a supervisor that I particularly wanted to work with. 22 00:02:50,330 --> 00:02:55,040 So I've come back into human geography. Hi, my name is Kensa 23 00:02:55,040 --> 00:03:06,050 I am a second year full time student at the Institute for Cornish Studies, which is in Exeter's other campus down in Penryn in Cornwall. 24 00:03:06,050 --> 00:03:15,470 I had been a teacher for about twenty years, having done the normal university master's degree straight after undergraduate. 25 00:03:15,470 --> 00:03:22,700 And then I was made redundant and very serendipitously that summer that I left school. 26 00:03:22,700 --> 00:03:34,100 My PhD, which came with funding for my fees, was advertised and I thought, why not I'd always wanted to do one 27 00:03:34,100 --> 00:03:40,220 So I applied, got this award at the studentship and started the PhD and last. 28 00:03:40,220 --> 00:03:41,990 But by no means least, Laura, 29 00:03:41,990 --> 00:03:52,160 I'm Laura Burnett, I'm doing a PhD in history and archaeology and I did the undergraduate degree in archaeology and then I worked for a few years, 30 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:58,820 digging and so on then went back into the Master's. And then I worked professionally within archaeology for about fifteen years. 31 00:03:58,820 --> 00:04:06,740 And I always knew I wanted to come back and do a Ph.D. but it was around identifying a topic that I knew I wanted to do and I knew would work. 32 00:04:06,740 --> 00:04:12,710 And then timing wise, it's been about fitting around kind of family requirements and so on. 33 00:04:12,710 --> 00:04:17,390 And that's why I started now and partly why I've chosen to start in Exeter 34 00:04:17,390 --> 00:04:19,670 Thanks, everyone, for those fabulous introductions. 35 00:04:19,670 --> 00:04:28,190 I think what that really captures is the varying routes back into or into postgraduate research and postgraduate study. 36 00:04:28,190 --> 00:04:31,580 And I wondered if we could just take a little bit of a step back, actually, 37 00:04:31,580 --> 00:04:38,210 and think about what we mean by the term mature student or in this case, mature PGR. 38 00:04:38,210 --> 00:04:41,300 They'll be kind of an official university label, 39 00:04:41,300 --> 00:04:47,570 which generally encompasses somebody who has'nt gone straight through tertiary and further and higher education. 40 00:04:47,570 --> 00:04:54,920 So GCSE's A-levels, undergraduate degree, master's degree straight into some form of research degree, 41 00:04:54,920 --> 00:05:03,230 but that doesn't necessarily work as a label for everyone. And I wondered what you thought of it as a term and how you felt about it as a 42 00:05:03,230 --> 00:05:08,270 label and a classification of who you are as a as a researcher and as a student. 43 00:05:08,270 --> 00:05:13,970 I think it is reasonable to label it. I don't know whether we can define how quickly I think is quite typical. 44 00:05:13,970 --> 00:05:17,870 My experience in talking to students is one or two years gap, 45 00:05:17,870 --> 00:05:25,020 but I think all of us here are people who've had a much longer gap the between kind of finishing our undergraduate off. 46 00:05:25,020 --> 00:05:29,820 As you know, it's not just one or two years of working at that or saving up some money. 47 00:05:29,820 --> 00:05:34,860 We've all had quite substantial gaps, which probably did change both our life situation, 48 00:05:34,860 --> 00:05:40,890 but also the kind of experience and viewpoint we bring to doing a Ph.D. 49 00:05:40,890 --> 00:05:45,630 So I think it's worth thinking about a separate group, but I wouldn't say it's people who just haven't gone straight through. 50 00:05:45,630 --> 00:05:52,830 I'd say probably the people have had at least four to five years of professional experience before they come back. 51 00:05:52,830 --> 00:05:57,480 I you know, I kind of I self identify as young. 52 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:03,870 And this is an expression that someone as someone said the other week to me and I thought that's such a great thing to say. 53 00:06:03,870 --> 00:06:11,670 So I mean, I don't know what mature means, really. I mean, yes. I mean, you know, when I started my PhD, I was in my mid 50s, 54 00:06:11,670 --> 00:06:18,300 but in some ways I would kind of question what, you know, what what the differences are. 55 00:06:18,300 --> 00:06:26,690 I mean, it's partly I think it's I you know, on the whole, I think I'm blessed with the ability to get on with people of all ages. 56 00:06:26,690 --> 00:06:33,540 And so I kind of you know, I didn't I never struggled with people, you know, 57 00:06:33,540 --> 00:06:39,390 my fellow students who were in their early 20s or or their mid 20s, mid 20s seems to be the norm. 58 00:06:39,390 --> 00:06:44,850 But, you know, there was certainly some who were kind of like, you know, twenty two years old starting a Ph.D., 59 00:06:44,850 --> 00:06:48,990 which, of course, I never imagined myself doing when I was anything like that age. 60 00:06:48,990 --> 00:06:55,770 But I don't know. I just kind of think that, yes, it's a long time since I was an undergraduate. 61 00:06:55,770 --> 00:07:05,640 And I am very grateful for doing I'm very glad that I didn't do a Ph.D. when I was 20 or 25 or 30 or, 62 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,120 you know, actually it was the right time when I started in my mid 50s. 63 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:18,670 So I kind of reject the premise here, actually, that there is anything different about being a mature student. 64 00:07:18,670 --> 00:07:25,650 I think you do that. You do. When it's right for you. It doesn't work for everyone, you know, and it it's not always easy. 65 00:07:25,650 --> 00:07:29,970 But in my case, it was the right time. Yeah, I love that. 66 00:07:29,970 --> 00:07:36,360 And I think in all of your introductions, when you were talking about how you came to doing your research degree, 67 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:44,940 you were all talking or providing us with stories that were very much about the right, the right time and the right topic. 68 00:07:44,940 --> 00:07:49,980 So from my perspective, I think it's a combination of experience, 69 00:07:49,980 --> 00:07:59,430 opportunity and an eagerness to get into the world of work that I really didn't want to go through any more formal education. 70 00:07:59,430 --> 00:08:06,510 And I obviously did the undergraduate degree straight through to Masters, literally, because I didn't know what else I wanted to do. 71 00:08:06,510 --> 00:08:12,540 I didn't know what I wanted to do as a job. And I had quite a. 72 00:08:12,540 --> 00:08:19,170 A negative experience as a master's student for my first master's degree, 73 00:08:19,170 --> 00:08:26,790 and actually I think had I then gone straight through to a Ph.D., wouldn't have been I wouldn't have the maturity that I have. 74 00:08:26,790 --> 00:08:39,090 Now, some people might argue I don't. And now having had sort of 20 years away from mainly away from academia and having worked in the real world, 75 00:08:39,090 --> 00:08:44,770 I know I'm quite happy to sort of ask things and go, OK, but I'm not happy about that. 76 00:08:44,770 --> 00:08:49,080 And this is what I want to do. And please, can you help me with this? 77 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:57,480 And I think that 22 year old, 23 year old Kensa would not have had that self-awareness or that confidence to ask for 78 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:04,350 those sorts of things and therefore have got the most out of what was available to me. 79 00:09:04,350 --> 00:09:09,930 And maybe that's maybe that's a reflection also of how academia's moved on. 80 00:09:09,930 --> 00:09:13,430 But I think that. 81 00:09:13,430 --> 00:09:21,590 As other people have said, it's the right time for me, I think it would have been a far more I'm not saying it's not stressful today. 82 00:09:21,590 --> 00:09:28,610 We all know that and we all know the amount of work and pressure that we often put ourselves under. 83 00:09:28,610 --> 00:09:34,520 But early twenties kensa  would not have talking about myself in the third person. 84 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:41,060 would not have coped with that in the way that I find that I'm able to do so now. 85 00:09:41,060 --> 00:09:45,800 I just wanted to reinforce what Kensa said. I completely agree with that. 86 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,060 I mean, I'm not quite as mature as Ghee, but not far off. 87 00:09:50,060 --> 00:09:54,170 And I don't feel that I would have had the confidence to do what I'm doing now. 88 00:09:54,170 --> 00:09:59,210 I think impostor syndrome is a problem for everybody, regardless of age. 89 00:09:59,210 --> 00:10:07,820 And I think sometimes as an older student, you can find a problem, but you also have the resources to to work with it. 90 00:10:07,820 --> 00:10:13,640 You have the confidence to ask the questions. You're not so worried about how you appear to others. 91 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:20,910 Yeah. And it's that that thing of being able to be confident enough to say, actually, I'm struggling with this. 92 00:10:20,910 --> 00:10:23,360 Can somebody help me? Can somebody advise? 93 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:29,150 And I think mature students maybe find that a little bit easier to do because you don't really have anything to prove. 94 00:10:29,150 --> 00:10:33,710 It is lovely talking to the mature students. And actually that was something that really surprised me coming back. 95 00:10:33,710 --> 00:10:42,020 I thought I would be massively older than everyone else and I was massively heartened in my first few days to sit next to lots of the 96 00:10:42,020 --> 00:10:48,860 people who were older and to go into the Induction in history and realise I was not the oldest person there by about 15 years, 97 00:10:48,860 --> 00:10:50,870 which is what I clearly expected to be. 98 00:10:50,870 --> 00:10:59,150 So I think people perhaps right now myself, I wasn't aware of how many mature PhD and research students there are. 99 00:10:59,150 --> 00:11:07,250 So I think that's something I hope, you know, this will make people realise, if I think you're coming in, is that this is not an unusual situation. 100 00:11:07,250 --> 00:11:10,730 Yeah, and I think that's really key because there is even in the way that I frame 101 00:11:10,730 --> 00:11:16,670 this and challenge this so beautifully is is this assumption of difference. 102 00:11:16,670 --> 00:11:23,700 And, you know, like saying actually, you know, we're all human beings coming to this at the right time in our lives. 103 00:11:23,700 --> 00:11:29,240 So are we really that different? But also, you know, the community is diverse. 104 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:34,580 And so I wondered if you could maybe reflect on what it was like coming in as a mature 105 00:11:34,580 --> 00:11:40,910 student and what your experience was of of your assumption of of perhaps being different, 106 00:11:40,910 --> 00:11:44,880 but also the reaction and response from your peers? 107 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:53,990 I think I've been really lucky. The department I went into, everybody was absolutely lovely and it just wasn't even a consideration. 108 00:11:53,990 --> 00:11:58,880 You know, I was at Freshers Week with everybody else, OK? I wasn't out partying, obviously. 109 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:03,230 But, you know, I was just with a bunch of other people who were all starting at the same time. 110 00:12:03,230 --> 00:12:05,480 They were all fantastic. We got on really well. 111 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:13,280 And I didn't really feel that age was even a consideration at any stage on that kind of carried on right the way through for me, really. 112 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:18,140 I found everybody very supportive. And it's just it's a community of people. 113 00:12:18,140 --> 00:12:22,070 I think age is just a state of mind. Yeah, age is a state of mind. 114 00:12:22,070 --> 00:12:24,920 I love that. And I think for me, 115 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:33,560 what made the crucial difference was that I came back and did the Masters more or less well I had a year between the Masters and the Ph.D. 116 00:12:33,560 --> 00:12:42,980 So I was starting a Masters in my fifties after having been out of formal education for twenty years or so. 117 00:12:42,980 --> 00:12:52,550 And and so I struggled a bit when I started the Masters with kind of getting back into, oh, OK. 118 00:12:52,550 --> 00:12:58,640 So here's a confession. When I was an undergraduate, I did my undergraduate degree in the early 1980s at Hull university. 119 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:03,380 And it was a degree in drama and I was the worst student you can imagine. 120 00:13:03,380 --> 00:13:07,100 I was you know, I was partying I was living it up. 121 00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:13,130 I was doing lots of productions, but I was not doing the work that was required to do to do the degree. 122 00:13:13,130 --> 00:13:23,270 And I very nearly failed. I came out with a 2:2 and I even though I was quite bright, I was just not doing putting the work in. 123 00:13:23,270 --> 00:13:30,830 And and that was, you know, that was so it was never nothing could be further from my mind when I was twenty. 124 00:13:30,830 --> 00:13:32,450 Than I would be doing a PhD. 125 00:13:32,450 --> 00:13:41,120 So I had to kind of between that stage of finishing my bachelor's degree and starting my master's degree 30 something years later, 126 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:48,170 I had to go through a long, long journey, which involved all kinds of stops along the way, where I realised, 127 00:13:48,170 --> 00:13:54,350 for example, that I was able to to write reasonably well, which is a skill I had anyway. 128 00:13:54,350 --> 00:14:00,840 But I didn't kind of I didn't have the confidence to realise that I was able to read and, 129 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:07,560 you know, read some kind of difficult theoretical text as well as the more straightforward. 130 00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:19,720 And that I could tell that I could cope, but even so, starting the Masters, as I did in September 2014, I think it was was an interesting shock. 131 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:28,540 And coming up against some of the some of the kind of the sort of the styles and the 132 00:14:28,540 --> 00:14:36,310 ways of being and the ways of talking and the and the how seminars were conducted, 133 00:14:36,310 --> 00:14:41,320 those kind of things are done quite some quite theoretical stuff which I struggled with. 134 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:47,690 And that was the difficult part, having then finished the Masters and done well in the Masters. 135 00:14:47,690 --> 00:14:55,260 Then when I started the PhD that that was an easy transition at the same university, it was the same department, some of the same people around me. 136 00:14:55,260 --> 00:14:59,950 So, yeah, it was the Masters beginning. That was a difficult thing. 137 00:14:59,950 --> 00:15:08,560 And I think I just going to make two points and one of them builds on Ghee's so if I start with that one that I'm thinking about, 138 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,900 kind of positioning yourself in department. 139 00:15:10,900 --> 00:15:18,280 One thing I found a little strange is coming in as someone who's used to managing their work and managing their own time. 140 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:23,320 That's in some of the university setup. It's a little bit more hierarchical. 141 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:29,530 So my supervisor is massively long suffering because he he keeps going about things, 142 00:15:29,530 --> 00:15:35,260 saying things like, you know, has Laura checked your permission to do this ? He just very calmly says, yes, if I haven't, 143 00:15:35,260 --> 00:15:41,200 because I completely forgot that I need to ask my supervisor whether I could do this thing that they could relate to, 144 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:47,620 but not because I'm not in the habit of asking somebody else's permission to do in research. 145 00:15:47,620 --> 00:15:54,160 So, yes, they're very, very sorry about that. But I do think that can sometimes be perhaps difference. 146 00:15:54,160 --> 00:16:00,610 The students who go straight through when they need to move from being a student in a 147 00:16:00,610 --> 00:16:05,920 hierarchical relationship within the department to moving to be a collaborator and a colleague. 148 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:10,090 And obviously people, who come in as mature students and perhaps people in something like archaeology, 149 00:16:10,090 --> 00:16:15,190 which is very collegiate subject in general, are more used to that relationship. 150 00:16:15,190 --> 00:16:23,440 And I think you have to have the right supervisors and colleagues around you who are expecting that they're not expecting you to be a slightly shy, 151 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:28,700 retiring or unsure students. They realise that you are a professional experienced person. 152 00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:37,660 Right. The other point I was going to make about freshers week and joining in, as someone who 153 00:16:37,660 --> 00:16:41,800 I've got my family responsibilities and I have young children and also, 154 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,590 although I live reasonably close to Exeter about an hour's driveway, 155 00:16:44,590 --> 00:16:51,910 so I've not moved to Exeter to do the PhD so I can get involved in some department of life. 156 00:16:51,910 --> 00:16:55,240 And that was one reason I chose Exeter was I am close enough to do that. 157 00:16:55,240 --> 00:17:02,560 But I didn't really take part in things like some of the more social side freshers week or some of the more social side the department. 158 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:07,600 And that does make a difference, I think. And yes. 159 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:16,750 And I think to sort of carry on with what Laura says, I live relatively near the Penryn campus, but I started at funny time of year. 160 00:17:16,750 --> 00:17:23,320 I actually started in November of twenty nineteen. So I sort of missed out on all the induction things. 161 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:31,330 So I very much don't feel part of the social side of Penryn campus at all. 162 00:17:31,330 --> 00:17:36,130 However, three months later, we then went into lockdown. We went online. 163 00:17:36,130 --> 00:17:43,150 And the great thing that I think actually has made my PhD and again, it feeds back to this, you know, 164 00:17:43,150 --> 00:17:50,560 not not feeling older or not not not sort of being perceived as being older than the other students. 165 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:58,210 Is the online community and online sort of support community has has been great and everyone is equal. 166 00:17:58,210 --> 00:18:05,950 Everyone is treated equally. So you really don't notice who's a mature student and who isn't. 167 00:18:05,950 --> 00:18:12,190 And the other thing that Laura was saying about it's the idea of asking permission. 168 00:18:12,190 --> 00:18:19,210 I never do. I'm very, very lucky with my supervisor because I all of my supervisions start with, well, I've done this. 169 00:18:19,210 --> 00:18:27,190 And he goes, okay, then, you know, and I think that possibly comes with the confidence, the maturity that we were talking about earlier. 170 00:18:27,190 --> 00:18:29,650 That's sort of. Okay, well, I, I, 171 00:18:29,650 --> 00:18:39,730 I'm used to having to run my entire life and having to organise this and spin lots and lots of plates because I had to do that throughout my career. 172 00:18:39,730 --> 00:18:46,270 So therefore, I don't ask people if I can do something, I just go ahead and do it. 173 00:18:46,270 --> 00:18:57,310 Yeah, so agreeing with Laura on lots of things. What's really clear from what you're saying is that there are a number of things that as a 174 00:18:57,310 --> 00:19:06,010 mature PGR and somebody who's been out in the world of work for a period of time and that, 175 00:19:06,010 --> 00:19:10,360 you know, there you bring things that are incredibly useful to the experience. 176 00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:19,990 You know, you talked about that kind of confidence and the ability to ask questions and to kind of develop your independence as a researcher. 177 00:19:19,990 --> 00:19:23,290 Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. You know what it's about? 178 00:19:23,290 --> 00:19:24,950 I think it's about skill. 179 00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:33,850 That's what I think is, you know, kind of for me, the difference between between doing it now and doing it and not having done it. 180 00:19:33,850 --> 00:19:38,200 And so I think is like managing a project. 181 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:49,640 You know, it's like managing a really complicated, multi lateral, multi faceted project, which is basically me. 182 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:54,740 I'm on my own with some support from the supervisors. 183 00:19:54,740 --> 00:19:58,070 I like that idea of going into the supervision and saying, I've done this. 184 00:19:58,070 --> 00:20:03,950 And that's a really positive way to do it, is that, you know, you say this is where I'm at and this is what I've got to do. 185 00:20:03,950 --> 00:20:06,470 And this is these are the successes I've had since we last met. 186 00:20:06,470 --> 00:20:14,420 And these are the struggles and the questions that I'd like you to help me with, rather than waiting for the supervisor to start the conversation. 187 00:20:14,420 --> 00:20:15,470 That's really good. 188 00:20:15,470 --> 00:20:25,670 But, yeah, the idea of of, you know, being able to you know, through my other experience in my life, my varied experience, I know how to plan things. 189 00:20:25,670 --> 00:20:30,410 I know how to schedule things. I know how to fill time. 190 00:20:30,410 --> 00:20:38,120 If I'm waiting for something, I know how to manage the information. 191 00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:44,140 I mean, a lot of it, particularly in history. So I did a history PhD. It really is about managing information. 192 00:20:44,140 --> 00:20:48,530 It's about managing my secondary reading and my primary you know the sources that 193 00:20:48,530 --> 00:20:52,910 I'm looking at in the archives and being able to handle all of that material. 194 00:20:52,910 --> 00:20:55,820 All of that is stuff I think that one gets in life. 195 00:20:55,820 --> 00:21:03,320 You know, that if you've got some experience as a person out with a job or with a family or both, then, you know, 196 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:11,240 you gain that experience and you can then bring that to you in the way that somebody is in their 20s, maybe can't yet. 197 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:16,220 Since then, I think I bring a whole lot of skills to it. 198 00:21:16,220 --> 00:21:22,910 But actually, I find I work on academic stuff is probably quite different to how I work on things I've worked on professionally. 199 00:21:22,910 --> 00:21:29,300 It's very seldom you do such a big project professionally and I've done some research and evaluation and that's similar. 200 00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:38,810 But it's rare that I do this sort of work professionally. So I'd say that actually there's kind of yes, there are skills I bring. 201 00:21:38,810 --> 00:21:43,550 And probably the thing that brings me to student is perhaps a lack of panic there. 202 00:21:43,550 --> 00:21:49,310 Are there more there are bigger disasters in my life. There are bigger problems in my life when things go a bit wrong with the PhD 203 00:21:49,310 --> 00:21:55,220 when things are a bit tricky with the PhD relatively, it matters a lot less than other things get bigger by life. 204 00:21:55,220 --> 00:22:00,470 So which is possibly not what supervisors want to hear. But I kind of like my PhD I kind of want it to go. 205 00:22:00,470 --> 00:22:03,890 Well, I want to do all of that, but it's not the be all and end of my life. 206 00:22:03,890 --> 00:22:12,560 And it can't be because, you know, I have other people in my life who are in the end more important, which is sad but true. 207 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:22,050 What I would say is I have found it slightly difficult because I have a way of working academically, which tends to be very intense. 208 00:22:22,050 --> 00:22:26,660 I tend to I'm I'm definitely someone who used to say doesn't stop moving til the ground, 209 00:22:26,660 --> 00:22:32,150 starts shaking that I really I like to very much work towards something, but then have a very intense period. 210 00:22:32,150 --> 00:22:37,910 And that's not always compatible with having a family life and working part time as a Ph.D. 211 00:22:37,910 --> 00:22:42,050 So that's something that I've had to learn to do as a mature student, 212 00:22:42,050 --> 00:22:48,560 which is different from how I worked when I was in my 20s, did my undergraduate or did my master's degree. 213 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:53,900 And I could just completely focus on a period, on a piece of writing I was doing. 214 00:22:53,900 --> 00:22:56,720 And I just can't do that because I have two kids in school. 215 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:02,120 So there is I've actually had to learn to work in different ways in which you're a student. 216 00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:06,980 But yes, like I bring bring a whole lot of kind of life experience to it, which helps. 217 00:23:06,980 --> 00:23:12,170 Yeah, I really I really identify with what Laura is saying. 218 00:23:12,170 --> 00:23:17,450 But one thing for me was actually working at the same time as studying and I found 219 00:23:17,450 --> 00:23:23,660 I was wearing two hats and I actually found that really difficult to juggle. 220 00:23:23,660 --> 00:23:29,240 My professional life was writing reports and communicating in a certain way, 221 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:35,840 and the writing that I was doing was very different to the writing I was doing as part of my PhD. 222 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:44,780 And that became quite a struggle for me, actually, because you were having to adopt these two personas and write in two very different styles. 223 00:23:44,780 --> 00:23:49,490 So you do need to be very organised. I think this is something that Ghee was saying. 224 00:23:49,490 --> 00:23:56,420 And, you know, don't underestimate the fact that you are trying to manage all these things and have a family life on top of that. 225 00:23:56,420 --> 00:24:03,050 So, you know, it does take a lot of organisation. So if you have project management skills, certainly that goes a long way towards it. 226 00:24:03,050 --> 00:24:07,850 But I do think that mature students have slightly different requirements. 227 00:24:07,850 --> 00:24:14,570 For me, it was the kind of the academic writing side of things and, you know, just needing a bit more support on that front. 228 00:24:14,570 --> 00:24:20,510 So we've talked about the benefits and the strengths that you bring as a mature PGR 229 00:24:20,510 --> 00:24:25,340 What about the challenges? What about what are the barriers that you faced? 230 00:24:25,340 --> 00:24:37,310 And certainly one thing I found difficult is having had gone from when I was a full time younger student, 231 00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:49,000 is the way that academia's moved on and things like methodologies and sort of understanding of particular. 232 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:54,760 Themes and ways of working, especially within history or you just have no idea, I mean, 233 00:24:54,760 --> 00:25:00,310 I'm somebody who did my computers with just about coming in obviously they coming in when I was at school. 234 00:25:00,310 --> 00:25:07,180 But when I was an undergraduate, I did all my work handwritten. Everything was longhand when I did my masters. 235 00:25:07,180 --> 00:25:13,120 Yes, I did wordprocess my essays, but we didn't have a university email addresses or anything like that. 236 00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:17,230 So, you know, we're talking about that sort of gap. 237 00:25:17,230 --> 00:25:24,130 So it's not necessarily technology I usde technology the whole way through my career, but understanding the sort of, OK, 238 00:25:24,130 --> 00:25:32,140 this is how we've now decided that you structure a piece of writing and you need to make sure that you included this stuff and the other. 239 00:25:32,140 --> 00:25:44,110 I think sometimes people assume, you know, what that is and somebody's coming straight through would do because they've done an undergraduate degree, 240 00:25:44,110 --> 00:25:48,370 especially in history quite recently, probably in other subjects 241 00:25:48,370 --> 00:25:53,650 So history is my experience and I don't know that. 242 00:25:53,650 --> 00:26:00,610 So that, in a way has been a barrier and you just have to go, OK, I have no idea what you're talking about. 243 00:26:00,610 --> 00:26:09,370 Please, can you help me you know? Occasionally you get the slightly taken aback look, but most people are happy to point you in the right direction. 244 00:26:09,370 --> 00:26:16,630 Yeah, I agree with most people have said and I think there are just a number of things I've noted here. 245 00:26:16,630 --> 00:26:28,150 And the supervisors I've had have been really understanding of me as an older student because they understood that there be other life commitments, 246 00:26:28,150 --> 00:26:35,200 family work. So I don't I found them very supportive. 247 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:46,250 And despite everything that they have pushed things through quite gently in many ways, for me it was the challenges definitely of juggling work. 248 00:26:46,250 --> 00:26:54,040 I was working full time, so every weekend was basically doing the research. 249 00:26:54,040 --> 00:27:01,570 So for me, it's been it was tough the first two years getting assignments done. 250 00:27:01,570 --> 00:27:10,720 And then when the research itself took over, what I found was that that was much more within my remit to deal with timescales. 251 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:17,190 So that was that was great. I could actually plan that out, thinking of my work commitments. 252 00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:21,030 For me, I was as I said, I was an international student, so for me, 253 00:27:21,030 --> 00:27:29,190 I struggled with time because there was a time difference between the UK and where I was living. 254 00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:37,980 So that wasn't just the case of being a mature student. I was juggling work and dealing with time differences when I wanted to contact my supervisors. 255 00:27:37,980 --> 00:27:47,700 But as I said, again, they were very understanding and some of them were even messaging me over weekends because I worked on the Sunday. 256 00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:55,680 The other thing for me was writing and I couldn't agree more with Kensa and that for me my writing style was very different. 257 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:01,920 And that was something that the supervisors commented on. And I reflected on this thinking. 258 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,480 As a younger Tracey, I wouldn't have written like this. 259 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:17,700 I wouldn't have written so confidently about my approach and my perspective, because I that, she said, was a very individual engaging style. 260 00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:23,690 And I don't think I would have done that or had the confidence to do that. The younger me. 261 00:28:23,690 --> 00:28:29,450 And also for the research itself, I actually don't think I could have done this research because this has come over 262 00:28:29,450 --> 00:28:35,180 time experience in my profession and within that particular job at that time. 263 00:28:35,180 --> 00:28:40,850 So the questions developed out of my work in practise in my life. 264 00:28:40,850 --> 00:28:51,440 Yes. So the barriers, I think there were the biggest one was juggling time for me and the distance with big time time difference. 265 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:57,710 But it was actually asking people for help and the right people that I struggled with. 266 00:28:57,710 --> 00:29:07,640 Sometimes I wouldn't know who to go to, whereas if I was on campus or perhaps come through Exeter as an undergraduate, 267 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,050 I might have known quicker where to go for advice on who to ask. 268 00:29:12,050 --> 00:29:16,420 But most of the time my supervisors have been very long suffering. 269 00:29:16,420 --> 00:29:22,390 Yeah, there are lots of things coming out there about being or not being a part of the academic community, 270 00:29:22,390 --> 00:29:26,890 and I wondered if we if we could spend some time thinking or talking about that, 271 00:29:26,890 --> 00:29:37,650 what kind of whether or not you felt welcomed into the academic community, what the what the barriers were again. 272 00:29:37,650 --> 00:29:42,650 I think one thing I would caution against is more think about people who perhaps think listening to this thinking thing, 273 00:29:42,650 --> 00:29:46,890 one is what worth thinking about. What subject I wanted to do 274 00:29:46,890 --> 00:29:53,260 I did think carefully about which university to attend, and partly because I have the experience. 275 00:29:53,260 --> 00:30:03,330 Someone else I could very well who did a of doctoral partnership as a mature student with the university that was some distance away. 276 00:30:03,330 --> 00:30:09,270 And I think that creates difficulties in terms of being able to contact people, 277 00:30:09,270 --> 00:30:14,730 but it also creates difficulties and perhaps perhaps take it sometimes opportunity to think. 278 00:30:14,730 --> 00:30:22,920 And so one reason I wanted to come to Exeter was because they had a strength and a community of people working in the period I want to work in, 279 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,710 but also because they were close enough, for example, 280 00:30:25,710 --> 00:30:29,010 that I could get involved in teaching because that's something I really wanted to make sure I teach. 281 00:30:29,010 --> 00:30:36,630 My Ph.D. will spend some time practising teaching, and I was able to do that because I live close enough of course the things going online. 282 00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:38,730 It's made it much easier to be part of 283 00:30:38,730 --> 00:30:47,370 which has been wonderful and allowed me to really work meet more of the other students and staff working on similar periods to me, 284 00:30:47,370 --> 00:30:50,250 which perhaps I couldn't see, but I knew they would be there. 285 00:30:50,250 --> 00:30:57,690 I couldn't kind of be there at five o'clock on a Tuesday afternoon to actually go to seminars, meet them where I was being invited to do that. 286 00:30:57,690 --> 00:31:02,040 So previously I think that was a barrier with things that time, your seminars and so on. 287 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:10,140 But I do think, you know, when you're thinking about where to go and look for your supervisors, the right people, that happens. 288 00:31:10,140 --> 00:31:17,310 If I think about that, do you think about that community and also what other things you want to do as well as do the research, 289 00:31:17,310 --> 00:31:22,230 whether being close enough to be involved in the department in that way is important as well? 290 00:31:22,230 --> 00:31:29,430 Of course, funding is can be a big control as well, yeah, a slight kind of double edge thing here, which I think is, you know, 291 00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:40,300 my grey hair and the fact that I look like, you know, sometimes I get respect from people just for that. 292 00:31:40,300 --> 00:31:48,630 Sometimes because I'm an older white male, some people will give me respect, which maybe I don't deserve. 293 00:31:48,630 --> 00:31:59,280 And that is on the whole, it's a good thing for me anyway. However, I sometimes I think I've had experience of younger academics, you know, 294 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:10,710 even quite senior academics who are perhaps slightly uncomfortable with having somebody who is a lot older than them, who is, you know, 295 00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:17,280 at that but at that junior level, because there is a very strong hierarchy within the university, you know, 296 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:27,450 undergraduate masters, the professor, etc., etc. There are these very clear strata within the university. 297 00:32:27,450 --> 00:32:35,800 And if there's somebody, you know, on a higher stratum than me who is a lot younger than me, then sometimes I think they struggle. 298 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,190 I don't think I struggle on the whole. I don't think I do. 299 00:32:38,190 --> 00:32:45,890 But I think I've experienced I get older or younger academics who who don't feel quite comfortable in my. 300 00:32:45,890 --> 00:32:49,280 And I don't know what one can do about that. And equally, you know, 301 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:58,400 lots of other academics and other members of staff and students who are perfectly comfortable with the case of 30 something years older 302 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,820 but some people do struggle with it. I totally agree. 303 00:33:01,820 --> 00:33:05,630 I think possibly the thing that mature age, 304 00:33:05,630 --> 00:33:14,900 mature age students bring to the PGR community and maybe the university community as a whole is that we have this experience, 305 00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:17,480 this larger experience outside academia. 306 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:26,750 And we are totally used to having to deal with people at all stages of their life and all stages of their own various journeys, 307 00:33:26,750 --> 00:33:33,950 and therefore actually dealing with a supervisor who might be 20 years younger than us. 308 00:33:33,950 --> 00:33:35,060 That's not my personal experience. 309 00:33:35,060 --> 00:33:44,090 But, you know, or people who have just got their kids who are far younger than us or people that who are far older than us, 310 00:33:44,090 --> 00:33:49,850 doesn't faze us perhaps as much as it would do to somebody in their very early twenties. 311 00:33:49,850 --> 00:33:55,040 And I wondered how that works for you, Tracey, because we're talking about kind of living relatively close to the campus, 312 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,790 whereas, you know, for quite a bit of your studies, you've been on the other side of the world. 313 00:33:59,790 --> 00:34:03,260 So what's that sense of community been like for you? 314 00:34:03,260 --> 00:34:15,920 Yeah, I think for me the challenge was actually having engagement with the student body and my fellow researchers as a community. 315 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:22,850 And at the time, although we have good technology that wasn't open to me until the pandemic, 316 00:34:22,850 --> 00:34:31,280 which you and I have discussed before, the actually the pandemic opened more opportunities for me. 317 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:51,440 And I feel that following my courses and access and seminars, conferences, going online, I feel I've got much more community with fellow researchers, 318 00:34:51,440 --> 00:35:00,320 whether that's younger researchers or not, because I certainly meet many more researches online. 319 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:06,230 In the last year than I did the previously, so I think it isn't a case of distance, 320 00:35:06,230 --> 00:35:12,020 it's a case of opportunity and access and thinking of it much more broadly. 321 00:35:12,020 --> 00:35:17,060 Yeah, I'm really glad you used the word community, because that's made me think about that again. 322 00:35:17,060 --> 00:35:28,310 And I'm kind of thinking that I really have felt I did I didn't feel very much that I was part of the the big university community, 323 00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:35,060 which is I mean, you know, it's an enormous community and it does it's not I mean, when I was an undergraduate just to go back there again, 324 00:35:35,060 --> 00:35:39,680 you know, there were a hundred students in one building studying drama at university. 325 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:44,780 And we were completely a family. And in Exeter, 326 00:35:44,780 --> 00:35:51,410 there are over a thousand students doing history as undergraduates and they are 327 00:35:51,410 --> 00:35:55,880 all scattered across the place and there's no sense of them being one community. 328 00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:03,740 So and I think Exeter is a big university. And I think it's it's it's it's hard to pin down where the community is. 329 00:36:03,740 --> 00:36:12,020 But I always thought I did feel, you know, I was part of you know, I was I spent a lot of time in the library. 330 00:36:12,020 --> 00:36:23,240 I was kind of I would often eat on campus in the day time in and out of the guild, you know, making I mean, I was on university challenge team, 331 00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:32,390 we didnt get on the TV, but even, you know, the kind of lots of things that made me feel as if I was as if I was part of this big group of people. 332 00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:37,700 And I think that that for me really made it work. 333 00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:41,600 And I think I had a again, I had a confidence about that. 334 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,580 I mean, I think that's a word that people have used. 335 00:36:44,580 --> 00:36:52,550 I had a confidence about joining things and going up to people and saying, hello, what can I join in, you know, that kind of stuff. 336 00:36:52,550 --> 00:37:02,180 But that I didn't have when I was if I just want to think about how some of this difference what you want to get out of the PhD 337 00:37:02,180 --> 00:37:08,510 you know, are you doing it professionally to move yourself forward professionally, and you know where that's going to go? 338 00:37:08,510 --> 00:37:18,170 Are you doing it to actually change careers? Are you doing as an experience to develop yourself intellectually, to develop new insights, new research, 339 00:37:18,170 --> 00:37:24,260 in which case that kind of social aspect of being part of a university community can be really important 340 00:37:24,260 --> 00:37:29,630 because you want to open your mind to new things and to meet new people and to be part of that or like, 341 00:37:29,630 --> 00:37:35,480 say, if you if it's a much more this is a professional step within my own career, developing my own skills. 342 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:42,260 You may not actually feel that need because you are already have that community within your professional practise. 343 00:37:42,260 --> 00:37:46,340 So I'm probably somebody whose perhaps move on that a bit 344 00:37:46,340 --> 00:37:55,520 I think when I first came back to do my PhD, very much so this is something that was part of that myself, actually within my career. 345 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,690 But I wasn't very clear about where I wanted what I want after 346 00:37:59,690 --> 00:38:04,380 And if I actually I'm still not and I still get lots of different ideas. But actually, let's go back, in fact. 347 00:38:04,380 --> 00:38:11,500 So I assumed I would never want to come back in academia after my PhD because I thought it was 348 00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:19,450 Possibly sometimesa hit horribly competitive for very small rewards and not perhaps that collegiate in some ways, 349 00:38:19,450 --> 00:38:27,310 and I didn't really feel that was the kind of society I'm working. But actually, I really loved to kind of, you know, teaching and studying again. 350 00:38:27,310 --> 00:38:31,540 And, you know, maybe there are opportunities for me that grateful to be part time. 351 00:38:31,540 --> 00:38:36,250 I've got years to worry about what I'm going to do afterwards. I and try lots of things in the meantime. 352 00:38:36,250 --> 00:38:41,920 That's also what Iwanted to do was to give myself that space to have a PhD part time 353 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:48,010 So I knew I had some income coming in and some work, but also to give myself space to explore new things. 354 00:38:48,010 --> 00:38:54,130 So I suppose why you're coming to do the PhD might impact what other things you to look for and what you really need. 355 00:38:54,130 --> 00:38:57,940 I was just listening to to what Laura said and smiling. 356 00:38:57,940 --> 00:39:05,050 I came I mentioned earlier I came into to do my PhD because it was to solve a problem I had in my career. 357 00:39:05,050 --> 00:39:08,290 And I was doing very well in my career. It was going great. 358 00:39:08,290 --> 00:39:14,260 There was no question of me going into academia, you know, and I was going to go back into my job and I'd be better informed. 359 00:39:14,260 --> 00:39:22,270 Well, that was just rubbish, because doing a PhD changes you as a person in lots of really good ways. 360 00:39:22,270 --> 00:39:29,830 And doing it part time, I think has helped me to kind of compare my working life with my academic life. 361 00:39:29,830 --> 00:39:34,630 And when you're in your 50s, people don't have any great expectations of you to go into academia. 362 00:39:34,630 --> 00:39:40,720 They think you're going to stick with your life in practise. And actually, I've just completely fallen in love with academia. 363 00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:48,700 I'm due to submit my PhD in September, and I've already been successful in securing a permanent lectureship, 364 00:39:48,700 --> 00:39:52,810 which I started in the New Year in Liverpool, and I just couldn't be happier. 365 00:39:52,810 --> 00:40:00,910 I'm a completely different person. I now have a totally different life and I just feel like I've come home, you know, 366 00:40:00,910 --> 00:40:06,430 and I like being in consultancy, but I'm just absolutely delighted with the way things have worked out. 367 00:40:06,430 --> 00:40:14,350 Anddoing a PhD has given me skills and experience and confidence and all the things that I didn't have before. 368 00:40:14,350 --> 00:40:19,990 And that's why I would just say to people, just go for it, because you really don't know where it's going to take you. 369 00:40:19,990 --> 00:40:30,400 That's just completely fantastic. Catherine, congratulations. And talking about kind of, you know, going onto an academic career. 370 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:38,260 It's a really nice Segway actually, into what started this conversation, which was about career support for mature students, you know, 371 00:40:38,260 --> 00:40:40,900 who aren't kind of haven't gone through that, I don't know, 372 00:40:40,900 --> 00:40:47,080 conveyor belt of education without without getting off and doing professional work and so on. 373 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:57,280 Don't know if we could speak a bit about that, about kind of what support you actually need as mature PGRs as you already have had careers 374 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:02,830 who have sought a PhD as a professional development opportunity or as a career change? 375 00:41:02,830 --> 00:41:13,390 You know what? What is it that you need that's different? I can I can start this off because I'm slightly to blame for the entirety of this podcast. 376 00:41:13,390 --> 00:41:21,370 I have having been a teacher in secondary schools, I have absolutely no desire to go back to that. 377 00:41:21,370 --> 00:41:28,690 Not dissing teaching as a career at all. I have the utmost respect for my former colleagues, especially the work they've done in the last year. 378 00:41:28,690 --> 00:41:32,920 But it's not something I want to return to. So I'm that's OK. 379 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,360 I'm in my second year of my Ph.D. stage. I need to decide what I'm going to do afterwards. 380 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,820 I need to start looking at options. 381 00:41:39,820 --> 00:41:51,610 So I'm going to as many I spent the sort of spring term this year going to as many careers seminars and talks and so on as possible and got very 382 00:41:51,610 --> 00:42:01,510 frustrated very early on because there was just this assumption that people looking for work were aged 22 and had an undergraduate degree. 383 00:42:01,510 --> 00:42:10,810 And I actually went to one to where the person said he was, you know, the Exeter graduate who they'd got in to do the talk, 384 00:42:10,810 --> 00:42:15,850 said, oh, yes, and you can make senior management by the time you're 25. 385 00:42:15,850 --> 00:42:20,080 And I, you know, had had we actually physically been in the same room, 386 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:27,340 I think I'd probably having said I'm mature and have grown up and what I probably would have thrown something at him. 387 00:42:27,340 --> 00:42:34,720 There is just this assumption that people looking for work or have just finished university and have no 388 00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:41,800 experience and are looking for a career and they just want money and they want to live in central London. 389 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:50,860 And we all know everyone, undergraduates, schoolteachers, children and teenagers in school, everybody knows that is not true. 390 00:42:50,860 --> 00:42:56,230 So why is this still this fantasy still being peddled in career seminars? 391 00:42:56,230 --> 00:43:03,100 And I didn't challenge him in that one. But then I went to another seminar probably a few days later. 392 00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:09,520 And actually I did turn around to go hi person in my mid forties here who's had one career. 393 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:18,000 Doesn't know what they want to do with their life after the PhD, please don't assume this, and actually got a really positive response from that. 394 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:24,550 But but yes, there is this. You know, I think. 395 00:43:24,550 --> 00:43:27,670 Maybe that's that's something that we need to do as mature students, 396 00:43:27,670 --> 00:43:31,990 but there are a lot of mature students as we've discovered and we need to challenge these 397 00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:38,180 stereotypes and say and also let alone with the way that society has changed, 398 00:43:38,180 --> 00:43:42,460 spot the historian here, the way society has changed over the last 50 years, 399 00:43:42,460 --> 00:43:48,580 people do not go into jobs at the age of 16 and stick with that one company until they're 65. 400 00:43:48,580 --> 00:43:53,740 Many, many people have either changed jobs or change careers partway through their lives. 401 00:43:53,740 --> 00:44:06,340 And I think that's hopefully careers services and whoever will start to realise this and start to sort of tailoring things to, 402 00:44:06,340 --> 00:44:12,880 you know, maybe we need to go and ask for it rather than expecting it to be handed this information to be handed to us on a plate. 403 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:19,940 But I think that people need to start catering for a wider range of needs. 404 00:44:19,940 --> 00:44:26,680 That sounds like actually the university's career department need to do some targeted sessions or or a theme stream, 405 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:31,600 which is about mature students, not necessarily only PGRs 406 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:37,870 but, you know, students of in any level or department or whatever who are, you know, 407 00:44:37,870 --> 00:44:43,690 who are kind of coming in again after after experience family and work. 408 00:44:43,690 --> 00:44:50,920 And you know how that is different and what they you know how it is, because the fact is, we've all got a hell of a lot to offer. 409 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,910 You know what? It's just a question of finding the right. 410 00:44:54,910 --> 00:45:00,160 The people who are looking for that stuff that we've got to offer, you know, and we are. 411 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,400 Yeah, we're great. I agree obviously with Ghee we are wonderful. 412 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:12,400 And people would be lucky to us in their career, I think also because if we're dissing the career service providers, who arent here to reply 413 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:20,170 they could also be missing because I know some of the conversation in amongst issues more broadly is about things like this 414 00:45:20,170 --> 00:45:28,690 terrible phrase of atl-ac the kind of people who are doing PhDs who aren't then planning to go on to an academic career and obviously from people, 415 00:45:28,690 --> 00:45:36,250 the students or from people who've done some of those other careers and therefore perhaps have some useful insights into that conversation. 416 00:45:36,250 --> 00:45:49,150 Or, you know, they could be the university could be exploiting some of our links into kind of industry and into other other areas of the subject. 417 00:45:49,150 --> 00:45:57,520 And it might perhaps be to call back something we spoke about earlier in that subject where sometimes some of the other 418 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:04,450 people who work in department have gone through perhaps more traditional route have stayed in academia their entire career. 419 00:46:04,450 --> 00:46:14,560 And actually therefore, that kind of wider understanding, that of those uproots is sometimes not perhaps there to the same extent. 420 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:20,170 And that's something that the that could can usefully not just mature students, 421 00:46:20,170 --> 00:46:27,790 but by setting it is more of a conversation and the way we can the community with an extra can contribute and work together. 422 00:46:27,790 --> 00:46:31,930 This could be something that other students can benefit from as well. 423 00:46:31,930 --> 00:46:39,580 And the people working in these career service jobs might benefit from some of our expense. 424 00:46:39,580 --> 00:46:41,570 Just very quickly, Laura you;re just spot on. 425 00:46:41,570 --> 00:46:47,320 I and I think the amount of times I've been in an academic situation and I've seen academics with loads of experience who don't know, 426 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:53,650 for example, how to run a meeting, who don't know how to handle a seminar, you know, who only have one way of doing things. 427 00:46:53,650 --> 00:46:58,750 And that's what they've been doing for 20, 30 years within an academic context. 428 00:46:58,750 --> 00:47:03,700 One thing I'd say is perhaps sometimes the nature of this being something that the university 429 00:47:03,700 --> 00:47:09,700 needs to do for students to recognise that if the university is a community, 430 00:47:09,700 --> 00:47:15,250 a kind of academic collegiate community, then this is something we do together in collaboration. 431 00:47:15,250 --> 00:47:21,130 This isn't something the university needs to do for students as a kind of someone lower down the hierarchy. 432 00:47:21,130 --> 00:47:29,560 Perhaps this is this is a this is a we work together at which, you know, I know some people do work collaboratively and that's true. 433 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:33,730 But I think that can we talk a little bit earlier on about sometimes that that 434 00:47:33,730 --> 00:47:37,690 hierarchical relationship that can creep in and that that that is a problem, 435 00:47:37,690 --> 00:47:41,950 I think. And that perhaps is very here. You're right. 436 00:47:41,950 --> 00:47:47,470 And I think that working in collaboration and that reciprocity is really important because one of the 437 00:47:47,470 --> 00:47:55,450 big philosophies of the way that I work is no one knows better what PGRs need than PGRs themselves. 438 00:47:55,450 --> 00:48:03,640 And so I think it's really important for us to working in collaboration, to work together on this and to wrap up. 439 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:05,740 I want to think or imagine that, you know, 440 00:48:05,740 --> 00:48:14,320 there's somebody listening to this podcast who is considering doing a research degree as a mature student or is just about to start. 441 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:23,890 What advice would you give them? What do you wish that you knew at the point at which you started or were considering applying? 442 00:48:23,890 --> 00:48:28,870 It's not so much of what I wish I'd known better, what I have come to realise, 443 00:48:28,870 --> 00:48:35,790 and that is don't be put off by thinking, oh God, I'm a mature student, what on earth my doing with my life? 444 00:48:35,790 --> 00:48:41,860 I suddenly take three or four years out to do a Ph.D. Just go ahead and do it. 445 00:48:41,860 --> 00:48:45,550 You can have whatever whatever life journey you've been on. 446 00:48:45,550 --> 00:48:52,390 You have acquired the skills and the knowledge and the ability to do a Ph.D. and you know, 447 00:48:52,390 --> 00:48:57,640 whether that juggling lots and lots of different things and commitments plus full time study, 448 00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:02,920 whether that's juggling a full time job and part time study, you have learnt those things. 449 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:07,930 You have learnt those skills. And what you need to do is just think I can do this. 450 00:49:07,930 --> 00:49:12,670 The support is there and I will learn so much about myself. 451 00:49:12,670 --> 00:49:17,740 And maybe it's not just about learning about yourself. I will gain something. 452 00:49:17,740 --> 00:49:22,840 And actually I do have the right to do this for me. 453 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:28,120 So I would say then don't be put off by thinking it's just something that people who 454 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:34,480 are very brainy in their mid twenties do not describe myself as very brainy either. 455 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:43,270 But yeah, just go for it. Yeah, I mirror some of what Kensa's said, so I just jotting down a couple of things. 456 00:49:43,270 --> 00:49:49,420 And I think the main thing that people said to me about it was a marathon, not a sprint. 457 00:49:49,420 --> 00:50:01,690 I go at my workplace or life at like a hundred miles an hour or a hundred and forty kilometres an hour along the Dubai Abu Dhabi highway. 458 00:50:01,690 --> 00:50:08,230 And I was still expecting to do that with my doing the doctorate. 459 00:50:08,230 --> 00:50:15,730 And it was only on reflection recently that I recognised that if it was a marathon and that 460 00:50:15,730 --> 00:50:24,940 a different process and different pace and then also mirroring what Kensa had said, 461 00:50:24,940 --> 00:50:36,250 the word I put down was skills, is that I have acquired so many amazing skills during this journey, 462 00:50:36,250 --> 00:50:44,290 and that's through my workplace and life as well as through this research opportunity. 463 00:50:44,290 --> 00:50:50,680 So I think if anybody was debating whether to do it, I'd say absolutely, 464 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:56,950 because you learn so much on the way and incorporate a lot of your life skills. 465 00:50:56,950 --> 00:51:02,980 I was just going to completely echo what the others have said I think that it's much better that I can so i'll just agree with them on that. 466 00:51:02,980 --> 00:51:10,600 Ang one point I was going to raise which hasn't kind of come up some where in the podcast was about doing it in combination with having a young family, 467 00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:15,070 and that I have two boys who are now just eight and five. 468 00:51:15,070 --> 00:51:23,770 And so I started when they're three and five. And obviously that of many mature students have perhaps caring responsibilities as do younger students, 469 00:51:23,770 --> 00:51:29,700 but actually a part-time PhD combines really well with having a family because there is flexibility about where you fit the work. 470 00:51:29,700 --> 00:51:38,110 And so that can really that can work quite well in that I work much more intense because of the times I can take the time off to the holidays. 471 00:51:38,110 --> 00:51:46,120 So if you're thinking will having a young family prevent me from doing a PhDit can actually be a type of work that fits pretty well with it. 472 00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:50,110 But I think what's been inspiring this podcast has been seeing how yes, 473 00:51:50,110 --> 00:51:54,280 go in with a clear idea about why you want to be doing the PhD be clear about why you want to do that topic, 474 00:51:54,280 --> 00:52:01,570 about what you really value about that topic and you know about why you've chosen to do it, where you've chosen to do it. 475 00:52:01,570 --> 00:52:07,000 But I think what to expect expects that that change, that growth you have to PhD. 476 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:13,690 And so don't be surprised if it goes in a different direction as you work through and that you change as you're doing it. 477 00:52:13,690 --> 00:52:18,700 But, yeah, I would agree with people. I think that's it. But I have been glad to do it now. 478 00:52:18,700 --> 00:52:25,330 You know, I wasn't in the place where my kids were very small babies. It wouldn't it would be more much more difficult. 479 00:52:25,330 --> 00:52:29,350 And I don't know whether I'd have come to my twenties. 480 00:52:29,350 --> 00:52:37,570 I would probably have done a different PhD. So, you know, it it fits people at different stages. 481 00:52:37,570 --> 00:52:42,760 Yeah. I mean, I'm just going to agree with everybody else. But one thing I would say is be kind to yourself. 482 00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:49,000 My supervisor often says to me to stop being so hard on myself, he reckons I'm my own worst enemy. 483 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:53,320 And I think sometimes we do put a lot of pressure on ourselves as mature students. 484 00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:59,920 So just something to be aware of. I also think we shouldn't stereotype ourselves, OK, we're mature students. 485 00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:04,870 But, you know, I think we've seen today that actually it doesn't make a lot of difference what age you are. 486 00:53:04,870 --> 00:53:08,740 We all deserve to be there and we've all earned the right to be there. 487 00:53:08,740 --> 00:53:14,500 And just to reiterate what other people said, just be prepared to come out as a different person at the end of it. 488 00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:22,570 Yeah, thank you. I mean, it's one of the things I think I want to say is, is that it's it's not for everyone. 489 00:53:22,570 --> 00:53:28,650 I think that some. That should be said to anyone who's thinking about going to university at any level, 490 00:53:28,650 --> 00:53:38,340 if they're a 17 year old thinking about an undergraduate degree or if they're thinkin

In this episode, guest host Dr. Edward Mills talks to Professor Michelle Bolduc, Professor in Translation Studies and Edward's internal examiner, about preparing for your viva.    In the podcast, Michelle mentions the TQA manual where Univeristy of Exeter PGRs can find the criteria for assessment for research degrees. These are taken directly from the Quality Assurance Agency's crtieria for assessment of research degrees. Please do check how these are applied at your instition.   This is the last in a new series of podcasts on the viva, being developed as part of a suite of online resources by Edward for the University of Exeter Doctoral College.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,170 --> 00:00:13,550 Hello and welcome to R, D and the In Betweens.   2 00:00:13,550 --> 00:00:32,300 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers, development and everything in between.   3 00:00:32,300 --> 00:00:40,940 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D in the In Betweens. This is our final episode in the series on The viva.   4 00:00:40,940 --> 00:00:49,540 And in this final episode, Dr. Edward Mills is going to be talking to his own internal examiner, Dr. Michelle Bolduc about.   5 00:00:49,540 --> 00:00:55,720 The similar things that we've talked about in the previous two episodes, viva Prep, how examiners approach the thesis,   6 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:03,490 but also with a little bit of a twist and a perspective from his own viva experience.   7 00:01:03,490 --> 00:01:04,850 So over to you, Edward.   8 00:01:04,850 --> 00:01:14,680 I was very fortunate to speak with Michelle about all things relating to the PhD  Viva, including My Own PhD viva, which she was the internal examiner.   9 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:20,470 First up, I was wondering if you could just introduce yourself and what your kind of experience is with vivas,   10 00:01:20,470 --> 00:01:25,750 whether as a student or as somebody who's administered them.   11 00:01:25,750 --> 00:01:33,100 So I'm Michelle Bolduc, the director and professor of translation studies, obviously at Exeter.   12 00:01:33,100 --> 00:01:45,160 And in terms of experience and Vivas, I would say that I've had both an American and a UK experience,   13 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:50,740 so I'll be really limiting myself and my remarks to the latter.   14 00:01:50,740 --> 00:01:59,320 I think it's probably more pertinent. So obviously you have done yourfair share of vivas in your time, including mine.   15 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:09,010 But I was wondering if if you could start just by explaining what you as an examiner do when you when you get a thesis ahead of the viva   16 00:02:09,010 --> 00:02:13,900 presumably the first thing you do is read it. But I mean, how do you how do you go about doing this?   17 00:02:13,900 --> 00:02:14,500 Well, you know,   18 00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:29,200 it's a it's a really interesting question given given now that all of the Covid regulations require the that we don't have paper copies,   19 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,980 I really need a paper copy in order to be able to read.   20 00:02:32,980 --> 00:02:42,610 So I don't know whether you know this but, but I requested paper copies of your dissertation.   21 00:02:42,610 --> 00:02:47,620 And I did so because the way that I'm going to be just very practical about it,   22 00:02:47,620 --> 00:02:57,190 the way that I read is both by taking notes with a pen really old fashioned on the thesis itself,   23 00:02:57,190 --> 00:03:03,100 on the pages and also on a notepad that I keep next to me.   24 00:03:03,100 --> 00:03:08,380 So I go through, I read, I take notes on the thesis.   25 00:03:08,380 --> 00:03:12,880 I read it a second time. I take notes on the notepad.   26 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:24,430 I read it a third time. I take further notes on my notepad. And and then usually my fourth reading is where I start to try to pull things   27 00:03:24,430 --> 00:03:32,320 onto some kind of a word document so I can organise the comments thematically,   28 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:43,090 whether it's based on argument or language use or some of the kinds of ideas   29 00:03:43,090 --> 00:03:49,670 that are linked across the the thesis and the questions that I might have.   30 00:03:49,670 --> 00:03:58,840 So could I ask what when you're reading a thesis for whether it's the first time or the fourth time, what do you like to see?   31 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,270 And is there anything that sort of really frustrates you?   32 00:04:01,270 --> 00:04:06,910 Is there anything you look at and are good or anything you look at and go, oh, hang on a minute, this is going to irritate me me?   33 00:04:06,910 --> 00:04:11,860 Well, I would say that I really like signposting.   34 00:04:11,860 --> 00:04:21,850 I really like when I see what the argument is, I see clearly how the argument is progressing,   35 00:04:21,850 --> 00:04:28,570 the way in which the student has chosen to or the candidate has chosen to mark out.   36 00:04:28,570 --> 00:04:33,490 This is what I'm doing and this is why I'm doing it.   37 00:04:33,490 --> 00:04:41,590 I pay really close attention actually to those features of argument that I don't think we teach quite enough, frankly.   38 00:04:41,590 --> 00:04:48,880 But but I think that having a sense of what your argument is, why it's important,   39 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:58,660 how you're going to improve it makes for a much easier reading experience for the for the evaluator, for the examiner.   40 00:04:58,660 --> 00:05:06,070 But I think it's also important for you as a candidate to know.   41 00:05:06,070 --> 00:05:14,590 Can you can you identify what it is that you're arguing and why you're arguing it, what's important about it?   42 00:05:14,590 --> 00:05:20,380 It sounds really simplistic, but oftentimes that's lacking.   43 00:05:20,380 --> 00:05:24,160 And so oftentimes, by the time you get to the the the Viva,   44 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:32,950 hopefully all of that is is quite clear is this is this sort of lack of structure or lack of signposting,   45 00:05:32,950 --> 00:05:39,430 something you you would you would hope to sort of signal the upgrade stage if it's not if it's not immediately clear.   46 00:05:39,430 --> 00:05:42,760 We do always signal it at the upgrade,   47 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:54,940 but especially now what we're reading in terms of the upgrade tends to be a very small number of pages compared to what the the thesis ends up being.   48 00:05:54,940 --> 00:06:01,120 There can sometimes be a little bit of an issue of if students go through the upgrade,   49 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:08,680 but they're still not able to mark out their argument and in a very clear way.   50 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,820 It's it's really easy to get lost when you're writing your thesis.   51 00:06:12,820 --> 00:06:16,480 And Edward, I have your thesis sitting in front of me.   52 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:24,280 And without the appendix, I seem to recall it was like three hundred and twenty nine pages, something like that.   53 00:06:24,280 --> 00:06:33,250 I think that's right. Yes. You know, it's it's it's really hard over many, many pages like that to remember.   54 00:06:33,250 --> 00:06:42,190 Well, how does how does page two hundred and twenty nine fit with what I said back on page seven.   55 00:06:42,190 --> 00:06:51,820 You've got to be able to to focus in on specific places in your argument, specific ideas,   56 00:06:51,820 --> 00:07:03,880 and yet still have an overarching idea of what it is that you're doing and how each specific idea responds to that overarching idea.   57 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:10,570 And could I ask just for anyone who's not familiar with the term signposting, obviously how ideas relate to each other is one thing.   58 00:07:10,570 --> 00:07:15,460 But how would you describe signposting? Is that to do with how you signal all of that?   59 00:07:15,460 --> 00:07:25,690 Well, it's about how you signal the way that a very specific idea is important to your argument on   60 00:07:25,690 --> 00:07:33,760 a local level and important to your argument on a on a general universal overarching level.   61 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:38,590 And signposting doesn't mean anything really complicated.   62 00:07:38,590 --> 00:07:46,990 It can just mean explaining. I am looking at this particular idea because it relates to my argument in this way   63 00:07:46,990 --> 00:07:57,200 in relation to something is the idea of connective tissue signposting gives the.   64 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:58,190 Reader,   65 00:07:58,190 --> 00:08:11,510 the idea that you you know what this particular idea is doing for your argument and in your argument and your and you're telling that to the reader,   66 00:08:11,510 --> 00:08:16,250 connective tissue is making the connections between the idea.   67 00:08:16,250 --> 00:08:23,780 Why is it that one idea follows another idea that you do just simply with transitions   68 00:08:23,780 --> 00:08:31,010 And and I can be that it's important in terms of the paragraph structure.   69 00:08:31,010 --> 00:08:37,700 But typically speaking, by the time you're getting to writing your thesis, you don't have a problem with how you link paragraphs.   70 00:08:37,700 --> 00:08:41,870 It's more how you move from one idea to another.   71 00:08:41,870 --> 00:08:48,050 There's some really interesting and useful thoughts I think, that a lot of PGRs will find very helpful.   72 00:08:48,050 --> 00:08:56,120 Thanks. A lot of those were based around the sort of preparing for submission stage, if you like, what you do before you submit your thesis.   73 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:00,380 So I was wondering if I could talk a little bit about the preparation for the Viva itself.   74 00:09:00,380 --> 00:09:05,360 You mentioned that you will have been reading the thesis through two, three, four times,   75 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:15,380 that you yourself have a hard copy and that you go from notes on the thesis to notes on a notepad, to notes on word document.   76 00:09:15,380 --> 00:09:20,300 Could I ask what you might suggest the students to be doing at that point?   77 00:09:20,300 --> 00:09:28,160 How would you how would you advise a student to prepare for the viva if you were the examiner, for example?   78 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:34,790 It's hard to do, but I think that as much as you can move away,   79 00:09:34,790 --> 00:09:45,830 step away from your thesis and come back to it as if you weren't the person who wrote it and try to work out for yourself,   80 00:09:45,830 --> 00:09:51,130 how would someone who is external to the process see this?   81 00:09:51,130 --> 00:09:56,020 I think you can't do it on the computer. I really think you need to have a hard copy in front of you.   82 00:09:56,020 --> 00:10:01,240 I have vague memories of doing exactly that, actually, of going in sitting places with a hard copy deliberately.   83 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:06,710 No screens in front of me going through and asking myself, so what with every few pages of the thesis?   84 00:10:06,710 --> 00:10:15,220 Yeah, it's not it's not easy to do. I think that first, when you're reading on a screen, you're not actually reading.   85 00:10:15,220 --> 00:10:20,470 Oftentimes you kind of your eyes just skip over words because they've become very familiar.   86 00:10:20,470 --> 00:10:24,940 So you really need to have, I think, the hard copy in front of you.   87 00:10:24,940 --> 00:10:33,910 And it's really hard to to read your own work as if you're not an interested party if if you know what I mean.   88 00:10:33,910 --> 00:10:41,530 What you can do is think to yourself, what kinds of questions?   89 00:10:41,530 --> 00:10:51,430 Do I want to be asked what kinds of questions scare me, what kind of questions am I really afraid of being asked?   90 00:10:51,430 --> 00:11:00,850 So if you can come up with a list, a list of potential questions that you might imagine the examiners asking,   91 00:11:00,850 --> 00:11:10,300 and how would you respond to those questions? What are the questions that are really scary for me that I really don't want my examiners to ask?   92 00:11:10,300 --> 00:11:17,590 Those are the ones that you probably need to pay the most attention to. I think that's that's that's a really useful piece of advice.   93 00:11:17,590 --> 00:11:21,920 Thank you. I remember actually that's something that happened in in my experience coming out of my upgrade.   94 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:27,850 viva your questions were fair, but also in many ways quite nightmarish,   95 00:11:27,850 --> 00:11:39,070 which provided me with a really good opportunity going into the final viva several years later to imagine you because you were the examiner.   96 00:11:39,070 --> 00:11:44,350 I knew at that point I'd met at least once imagining really difficult questions.   97 00:11:44,350 --> 00:11:47,500 And this led to me creating what I call the nightmare sheet,   98 00:11:47,500 --> 00:11:54,400 where I had some notes on the worst possible questions I could be asked and how I might how am I answer them?   99 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:59,770 I asked my supervisor on the morning of my Viva to put me on the spot and make me really uncomfortable for a few minutes.   100 00:11:59,770 --> 00:12:03,580 And did he? Oh, he did, yes. It was awkward because we know each other quite well.   101 00:12:03,580 --> 00:12:10,960 But now he did. He put me on the spot and he he helped me think through some of the some of the nightmare questions, if that makes sense.   102 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,500 And what about during the Viva itself then?   103 00:12:14,500 --> 00:12:22,390 Obviously it's a. A nerve wracking experience for the candidate, could I ask?   104 00:12:22,390 --> 00:12:26,770 You've mostly worked as an internal examiner, is that correct? That's right.   105 00:12:26,770 --> 00:12:35,770 So in the UK system at least, what contact is there between the the internal and the external examiner before the vivaitself?   106 00:12:35,770 --> 00:12:44,770 There is quite a bit of contact. Typically, we each have to fill out a preliminary report form.   107 00:12:44,770 --> 00:13:00,100 And in that report form, we give a sense of whether or not imagine that the dissertation fulfils the criteria for the award of the Ph.D.   108 00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:09,070 So we have to be in agreement about that. So I'm sure many of us will already be familiar with what these criteria that you mention are.   109 00:13:09,070 --> 00:13:14,020 But can I ask if you'd be willing to just run through them again for anybody who's come across these for the first time?   110 00:13:14,020 --> 00:13:23,260 Of course, there are five different criteria. And actually you can find this in the TQA manual.   111 00:13:23,260 --> 00:13:32,530 Basically, you're you need to have shown that you've created and interpreted some kind of new knowledge.   112 00:13:32,530 --> 00:13:42,280 It needs to be original research, some advanced scholarship, something that peer review quality,   113 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,340 extending the forefront of the discipline and it merits publication.   114 00:13:46,340 --> 00:13:56,290 That's that's the first criterion. The second is a showing a systematic acquisition and understanding of a substantial body of knowledge,   115 00:13:56,290 --> 00:14:04,980 again, at the forefront of an academic discipline. You need to show the general ability to conceptualise,   116 00:14:04,980 --> 00:14:15,780 design and implement a project for the generation of new knowledge and the ability to adjust the project design in light of unforeseen problems.   117 00:14:15,780 --> 00:14:21,090 The fourth is a detailed understanding of applicable techniques and advanced   118 00:14:21,090 --> 00:14:28,080 academic enquiry and finally a satisfactory level of literary presentation.   119 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:40,790 So basically candidates, when they submit their thesis, the preliminary reports, look at whether or not the thesis.   120 00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:47,030 Meets these criteria. So is there something original about it?   121 00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:53,150 Is does it advance our knowledge in the discipline?   122 00:14:53,150 --> 00:15:02,390 Is it is it written in a high form of academic discourse or not?   123 00:15:02,390 --> 00:15:12,610 I think the Vivais really important because it gives the candidate a chance to expose.   124 00:15:12,610 --> 00:15:27,610 What he or she has been working on for many, many years and for examiners to talk about the strengths and weaknesses of that approach,   125 00:15:27,610 --> 00:15:36,360 to give feedback, to give ideas for how this might be shaped into a book, that kind of thing.   126 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:42,790 Believe it or not, for me, the Viva is meant to be much more of a friendly process.   127 00:15:42,790 --> 00:15:54,100 I know that it probably didn't feel like that to you, but by the time you are at the level of submitting a PhD thesis,   128 00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:58,360 it means that you're entering into a different circle, if you will.   129 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:04,910 You're becoming a peer as opposed to a student. So I was wondering if we could just sort of fast forward a bit.   130 00:16:04,910 --> 00:16:09,760 You've the candidate has just walked into the viva or logged on.   131 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:19,720 If we're doing things in the covid format, you have produced a preliminary report that you have discussed with the the external examiner.   132 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:24,010 You've come to a sort of preliminary conclusion. Is that right?   133 00:16:24,010 --> 00:16:34,600 That's right, the preliminary report really just says something like this, this thesis meets the criteria for these reasons,   134 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:46,960 there may be these issues or I anticipate the viva dealing with particular maybe problems.   135 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:54,910 So it's kind of a brief evaluation. So obviously that brings us quite neatly onto the Viva itself.   136 00:16:54,910 --> 00:17:00,400 It's clearly a very stressful experience for the candidate when they're sitting there or logged on   137 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:09,460 there with two experts in the field being being grilled or at least being asked challenging questions.   138 00:17:09,460 --> 00:17:18,520 What? Do you hope to see from candidates during during that viva process?   139 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:26,630 I think one of the hardest things for. Candidates is listening.   140 00:17:26,630 --> 00:17:40,280 I think there's so much stress that sometimes candidates find it very difficult to properly listen to to what the examiner is asking,   141 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:52,690 and if you can remove yourself slightly from the fact that this is your work and think about as you're being asked questions.   142 00:17:52,690 --> 00:18:02,860 What's useful about that question? I mean, I think examiners are not trying to, again, trap you or trick you or anything.   143 00:18:02,860 --> 00:18:06,370 We're really there to improve the work.   144 00:18:06,370 --> 00:18:17,140 And so sometimes I've found that candidates are really, really stressed and not always paying attention to what's going on.   145 00:18:17,140 --> 00:18:22,510 This isn't always the case. It certainly wasn't the case when you were doing your viva   146 00:18:22,510 --> 00:18:30,250 But I think you need to be open to the conversation going in directions that you may not have anticipated.   147 00:18:30,250 --> 00:18:38,650 What I like to see as a student or a candidate who is responsive to what's being said and   148 00:18:38,650 --> 00:18:46,200 what's being asked instead of kind of turning your wheels on and rehearsing arguments.   149 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:54,250 And I mean, in other words, if we're asking a question and you give the same answer that you gave in your thesis,   150 00:18:54,250 --> 00:19:04,330 you probably want to elaborate a little bit more, because if you're asking the question, it means that you haven't done quite enough in writing.   151 00:19:04,330 --> 00:19:10,840 And we want a little bit more in in your oral expression.   152 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:15,280 And this presumably comes back to what you can do to do prepare for the viva as well.   153 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:21,340 You can go through and you can annotate these points that you thought might be   154 00:19:21,340 --> 00:19:24,850 asked about in the viva and develop them further than in preparation for.   155 00:19:24,850 --> 00:19:36,610 That's right. You it's good to think about. Well, what kinds of ideas could I have elaborated on that maybe I didn't as as thoroughly as I might have.   156 00:19:36,610 --> 00:19:41,200 And obviously the viva itself can go on for quite a length of time.   157 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:49,240 Our one was was four hours, which I think is the maximum that allows.   158 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:57,750 It's often said that the length of the Viva does not necessarily correspond to how well the candidate does.   159 00:19:57,750 --> 00:20:03,400 So a 90 minute Viva doesn't mean an excellent candidate necessarily and a four hour viva   160 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,670 Doesn't necessarily mean, you know, a candidate nearly failed.   161 00:20:07,670 --> 00:20:10,900 Would you say a little bit more about the sort of the length of time?   162 00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:17,890 Because I know that from my experience, your vivas tend to be quite long ones, don't they?   163 00:20:17,890 --> 00:20:24,160 I guess I'm always really interested in what I'm reading and I always have a lot of questions.   164 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:33,910 I would agree that the length of the Viva doesn't reflect at all the quality of the thesis or the quality of the Viva   165 00:20:33,910 --> 00:20:43,510 Again, I wouldn't assume that if you're Vivir is over in an hour and a half that you've completely done a terrible job.   166 00:20:43,510 --> 00:20:50,980 Typically we give you some sense at the end of the viva of how we thought it went.   167 00:20:50,980 --> 00:20:57,280 So you get immediate feedback, at least informal feedback.   168 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:09,040 I remember you telling me at the end of my viva I was quite a fighter, if I remember correctly, which was an interesting term to use.   169 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,210 I think you were sort of I think that was a compliment or it was.   170 00:21:13,210 --> 00:21:17,650 Yeah, in the sense that I was kind of I was able to defend my points,   171 00:21:17,650 --> 00:21:23,840 but it was and that's I think that's the kind of feedback that you're referring to, that when you say informal feedback, is that is that fair to say?   172 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:33,550 Yeah, that's right. And actually, that kind of you have to be really careful because what you did in your viva in your Viva and the   173 00:21:33,550 --> 00:21:43,450 way that you were a fighter was that you answered the questions in in such a way as to be persuasive.   174 00:21:43,450 --> 00:21:49,360 You didn't rehash your thesis where there might have been weak points.   175 00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:58,270 You were actually you actually really broadened the perspective in a way that was effective.   176 00:21:58,270 --> 00:22:04,980 Thank you for saying so. Saying that someone was a fighter could be one of two.   177 00:22:04,980 --> 00:22:12,850 It could be complementary, but it could also be you haven't really been listening to what we're asking in our case.   178 00:22:12,850 --> 00:22:16,360 In your case, that that wasn't what was going on.   179 00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:22,990 I was I thought I thought you might want to clarify that, because I can see It could definitely be argued one way or the other.   180 00:22:22,990 --> 00:22:27,910 So that brings us rather neatly to the possible outcomes.   181 00:22:27,910 --> 00:22:32,110 I think of the viva. I mean, in my view, you know, I got minor corrections.   182 00:22:32,110 --> 00:22:43,690 That's one of four possible outcomes that you can have. You mentioned that you have had experience of examining candidates who got major corrections,   183 00:22:43,690 --> 00:22:47,290 which is something that I know a lot of people are afraid of.   184 00:22:47,290 --> 00:22:50,740 It's unlikely that you'll end up with major corrections.   185 00:22:50,740 --> 00:22:56,350 But I was wondering if you could say a bit more about your experience with that and whether it was the the end of the world   186 00:22:56,350 --> 00:23:06,430 as as some candidates seem to think definitely for this particular individual was not it was not the end of the world.   187 00:23:06,430 --> 00:23:12,850 I think it was it was shattering at the moment for the student   188 00:23:12,850 --> 00:23:25,750 I think the student was was really not anticipating this as a as a potential outcome in hindsight.   189 00:23:25,750 --> 00:23:29,270 And this is where hindsight is always so.   190 00:23:29,270 --> 00:23:40,880 Great, the work was significantly improved, so much so that I'm really hoping it's going to come out as a book.   191 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:53,330 I think, again, the purpose of viva is to allow you to elaborate on areas that you may not have done   192 00:23:53,330 --> 00:24:01,370 so well for you to get feedback on your thesis and try to work out how to make it better,   193 00:24:01,370 --> 00:24:09,590 how to make it into something that will actually be read by other people and not just by your examiners.   194 00:24:09,590 --> 00:24:15,680 So it might feel like a kind of a violent process.   195 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:26,960 But if if you can sort of de-stress and think this is only for my thesis to be better,   196 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:34,790 stronger, more persuasive, publishable, you'll be a lot more at ease.   197 00:24:34,790 --> 00:24:41,780 And I think you you'll have a different experience of the Viva   198 00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:47,150 I know that from my experience, you were kind enough. I know this may not happen in every case.   199 00:24:47,150 --> 00:24:55,340 You and Jocelyn my external, were kind enough to provide me with sort of two levels of corrections.   200 00:24:55,340 --> 00:24:58,760 So while I got minor corrections at the thesis level,   201 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:06,140 you made some more sort of substantial points that I'll need to consider as and when I look to publish this in book form.   202 00:25:06,140 --> 00:25:14,990 And I think that's a really, really interesting point to end on, actually, is that the thesis you mentioned this earlier is a living document,   203 00:25:14,990 --> 00:25:22,340 and the Viva aims to look at it not just as a thesis, but also is it fair to say to give you advice going forward with it?   204 00:25:22,340 --> 00:25:29,480 Absolutely. It might be that your thesis will be divided up into articles that you'll send out.   205 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,580 It might be that you you will have just a couple of chapters.   206 00:25:34,580 --> 00:25:37,010 You'll add a couple more and that will be a book.   207 00:25:37,010 --> 00:25:47,570 And what you didn't include in your thesis will be an article where really we're think we're training you to be academics.   208 00:25:47,570 --> 00:25:58,160 When you get a Ph.D., we're assuming that you're going to be entering into this academic world.   209 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:03,510 What do you need to do in order to be be a part of this academic world?   210 00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:04,370 You need to publish.   211 00:26:04,370 --> 00:26:15,860 And so part of the purpose of the Viva is to give you feedback not just on what you've produced, but on what you might do with what you've produced.   212 00:26:15,860 --> 00:26:21,950 I mean, obviously, not everyone will go into academia after a Ph.D., but of course,   213 00:26:21,950 --> 00:26:27,140 it's it's very useful to know that that's what the the the the beauty viva is at least that   214 00:26:27,140 --> 00:26:33,830 of preparing you for and training you for that is part of a part of a massive pipeline.   215 00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:34,160 You know,   216 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:47,270 it may be that there are parts of your  of your PhD thesis that you decide you want to put onto a blog or to send to a newspaper publication.   217 00:26:47,270 --> 00:26:55,560 Again, thinking about who your audience is and how you might need to disseminate that information for more of a lay reader.   218 00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:01,100 And, you know, even if even if you don't go on in academia, if you decide that, you know,   219 00:27:01,100 --> 00:27:13,640 teaching in a university is not your dream job after all, think about the kinds of transferable skills that you've learnt in writing your thesis.   220 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:21,680 You've you've learnt how to research. You've learnt how to evaluate other scholarship.   221 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:28,370 You you know how to situate your ideas. You know how to express your ideas in a persuasive way.   222 00:27:28,370 --> 00:27:33,260 These are important skills for any any field.   223 00:27:33,260 --> 00:27:49,080 Is the process of submitting your thesis of going through the Viva is admittedly an inherently stressful, but it really is designed to.   224 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:55,800 Make sure that your work is the best that it can be, and that's what we're aiming for.   225 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:01,500 I certainly found in my experience with you as my internal that that was that was what I got out of.   226 00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:09,370 It was very stressful beforehand. I was I was incredibly nervous going into it.   227 00:28:09,370 --> 00:28:15,750 May have may have walked the entire circumference of the small room I was in about 50 times beforehand.   228 00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:23,790 But coming out of it, I definitely felt like the comments that I got had the potential to make the thesis better.   229 00:28:23,790 --> 00:28:30,000 And the list of comments that I got, which I then went away and put into an Excel spreadsheet,   230 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:38,370 really were a crucial tool when it came to revising the thesis and making it better, I think, to to come back to a term that you've used the you know,   231 00:28:38,370 --> 00:28:48,750 the other thing about viva that's really, really lovely and amazing is that you're having a discussion about your work   232 00:28:48,750 --> 00:28:57,270 with two experts and you might have a four hour conversation about your work.   233 00:28:57,270 --> 00:29:04,530 Very well. Yes. And how how how rare is that?   234 00:29:04,530 --> 00:29:15,660 I mean, how it's so unusual that you're able to get so much feedback and have to be engaged in this really intellectually stimulating conversation,   235 00:29:15,660 --> 00:29:25,140 not just for half an hour, but for four hours on a subject that means so much to you.   236 00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:33,660 So I think I think there is something really special about the viva, because it really is all about you and all about your work.   237 00:29:33,660 --> 00:29:39,780 And that kind of attention is and isn't always so common.   238 00:29:39,780 --> 00:29:46,500 And I think that's a really positive note to end on, actually, given all of the concerns that many of us have about the viva   239 00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:53,600 it's great to hear a bit more there about how it can actually be a really rewarding and positive experience.   240 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:58,040 Thank you so much to Edward and Michelle, but also to John and Bice for what I think has been a really,   241 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:04,010 really rich trio of episodes about the process of the Viva   242 00:30:04,010 --> 00:30:08,570 It's something that causes a huge amount of anxiety to PGRs.   243 00:30:08,570 --> 00:30:17,600 And I really, really hope that the insights of these three academics and the level of reflection and compassion   244 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:25,480 with which they spoke will really reassure you in the supportiveness and integrity of this process.   245 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:30,700 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me.   246 00:30:30,700 --> 00:30:57,321 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

In this episode, guest host Dr. Edward Mills talks to Dr. Bice Maiguashca, Associate Professor in Politics about preparing for your viva in HASS subjects. This is the second in a new series of podcasts on the viva, being developed as part of a suite of online resources by Edward for the University of Exeter Doctoral College. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast Transcript   1 00:00:09,170 --> 00:00:15,800 Hello and welcome to R, D and the In Betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 2 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:32,520 and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers, development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:40,180 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and The Inbetweens, this is the second episode in a series where our guest host, 4 00:00:40,180 --> 00:00:46,470 Dr. Edward Mills, talks to academics and examiners all about the viva process. 5 00:00:46,470 --> 00:00:50,040 In this episode, Edward is talking to Bice Maiguashca 6 00:00:50,040 --> 00:01:00,000 who is an associate professor in the politics department at the University of Exeter, giving her experience and advice as an examiner, 7 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,950 as a supervisor, 8 00:01:01,950 --> 00:01:11,250 and reiterating some of the really excellent advice and support she's given to our PGRs over the years through our Preparing for your viva workshops. 9 00:01:11,250 --> 00:01:20,490 So it's over to you Ed. hello. Today I am speaking with Bice Maiguashca, who is a professor in the politics department, 10 00:01:20,490 --> 00:01:29,280 about her experiences as an internal and external and also as a non examining independent chair. 11 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:34,410 OK, so could you start just by saying a little bit about yourself, please? 12 00:01:34,410 --> 00:01:44,130 Sure. I'm an associate professor in the politics department and my research, very broadly speaking, 13 00:01:44,130 --> 00:01:50,850 is on the politics of resistance and more specifically on left politics. 14 00:01:50,850 --> 00:01:56,910 So left social movements as well as left politics in Britain. 15 00:01:56,910 --> 00:02:03,930 And I tend to approach the subject from a feminist perspective. So that's my academic sort of area of expertise. 16 00:02:03,930 --> 00:02:09,450 And so what can I ask? What's your experience as an examiner then of PhD thesis? 17 00:02:09,450 --> 00:02:12,870 I have both taken on both roles. 18 00:02:12,870 --> 00:02:14,850 Well, actually all three roles. 19 00:02:14,850 --> 00:02:27,840 I have been the supervisor, a supervisor to ten students, 10 PhD students, and I have been both internal examiners and external examiners. 20 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:33,600 And in addition, I've also played the role of independent chair on numerous occasions. 21 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,650 I suppose the first thing to ask is a question that I've asked everybody I've spoken to thus far, 22 00:02:37,650 --> 00:02:44,430 which is when you're examining a PhD thesis as an internal and external examiner, 23 00:02:44,430 --> 00:02:49,120 what do you do when you when you get a thesis in front of you for the first time? 24 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:57,270 Yeah. Yeah. Well, the first thing you do is you decide when you're going to at what point you're going to 25 00:02:57,270 --> 00:03:03,270 read it and you want to make sure when you do that you have several hours ahead of you. 26 00:03:03,270 --> 00:03:08,280 In other words, at least in my experience, in my view, you can't read a thesis 27 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:13,230 or at least I can't read the thesis over several days in small chunks. 28 00:03:13,230 --> 00:03:24,510 So I pick up the thesis and I make sure that I have three to four or five hours to focus on it, to make myself comfortable with something. 29 00:03:24,510 --> 00:03:31,770 And I read the introduction and the conclusion, and this may be very individual, 30 00:03:31,770 --> 00:03:39,780 idiosyncratic thing to do, but for me, I need to have a general map of the thesis before I dive in 31 00:03:39,780 --> 00:03:45,780 So I want to have a sense of what the story line is. 32 00:03:45,780 --> 00:03:52,950 In other words, a thesis for me and for no academic. is never read sort of as a myth, as a mystery novel, if you like, 33 00:03:52,950 --> 00:03:59,220 where the the the the plot line emerges at the end or the punch line emerges at the end. 34 00:03:59,220 --> 00:04:06,870 We like to know what's going on, what the aims of the thesis are, what the argument is going to be foregrounded at the beginning. 35 00:04:06,870 --> 00:04:14,820 So I read the introduction. I then read the conclusion. So I have a sense of the both, if you like, the bookends of the thesis. 36 00:04:14,820 --> 00:04:20,220 I have an overall map of the thesis in my mind, and then I dive into Chapter one, 37 00:04:20,220 --> 00:04:26,520 start looking for story line as well as the evidence which is going to sustain it. 38 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,570 Reading the introduction, the conclusion of the thesis. Yes, some examiners may do that. 39 00:04:30,570 --> 00:04:38,190 Some some may not. But it's interesting to hear you talk about the the storyline of a thesis. 40 00:04:38,190 --> 00:04:40,710 Could you say a bit more about what you mean by the story line? 41 00:04:40,710 --> 00:04:50,430 Yeah, OK, so I think it's very important that the introduction of a thesis does four things and they all add up. 42 00:04:50,430 --> 00:04:58,020 If you like the story line in some sense of the thesis, the first thing that the introduction needs to do, 43 00:04:58,020 --> 00:05:08,970 in my view, is establish the puzzle or the problem or the research question that the student is trying to tackle. 44 00:05:08,970 --> 00:05:16,430 So what is the thesis about and what questions is it trying to answer? 45 00:05:16,430 --> 00:05:24,140 The second aspect, if you like, of this storyline has to do with the answer to that question. 46 00:05:24,140 --> 00:05:30,960 In other words, what is the argument? Of the PhD 47 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:36,620 What is the thesis? That the student is putting forward. 48 00:05:36,620 --> 00:05:47,300 So that's the second bit, the third part of the storyline is why that question needs to be answered in academic terms. 49 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:56,630 What is important about that question? Another way of putting this part of the storyline is to call it the rationale of the thesis. 50 00:05:56,630 --> 00:06:00,950 What is the rationale of the thesis? And you can have two types of rationale. 51 00:06:00,950 --> 00:06:09,840 You can have an academic rationale. In other words, there is a gap in the literature or perhaps there is a gap in the literature. 52 00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:19,460 But this is an important question and hasn't been studied. And the second form of rationale that might be relevant, particularly politics students, 53 00:06:19,460 --> 00:06:25,700 perhaps to others, is that there may be a political or social rationale for doing the thesis. 54 00:06:25,700 --> 00:06:34,290 In other words, it's tackling a particularly important political or social problem that begs to be solved. 55 00:06:34,290 --> 00:06:47,300 And the fourth thing that I think a reader needs to find in the introduction is an explanation of how they proceeded to do the research. 56 00:06:47,300 --> 00:06:52,300 In other words, what's otherwise called the methodology of the thesis. 57 00:06:52,300 --> 00:06:59,760 So just to recap, in the introduction of the thesis, the reader is looking for four things. 58 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:04,420 What is the puzzle? What is the argument of the thesis? 59 00:07:04,420 --> 00:07:10,150 Why does the puzzle and argument matter? In other words, contribution to knowledge? 60 00:07:10,150 --> 00:07:19,810 And finally, how has the student undertaken this research and why have they made the choices that they have in terms of methodology? 61 00:07:19,810 --> 00:07:32,200 Those four pillars hold up thesis in many respects and need to be foregrounded in the introduction and then perhaps revisited in the conclusion. 62 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,860 I don't know how you wrote your introduction, but does that sound familiar to you? 63 00:07:35,860 --> 00:07:44,590 That sounds very familiar, particularly given the advice that a lot of people are given to do their introduction last. 64 00:07:44,590 --> 00:07:50,560 Right. OK, certainly that might sound slightly odd in the. 65 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:57,730 Does that sound odd? This this may or may not make it into the final cut? I think I've heard people say it before, but I don't think it's realistic. 66 00:07:57,730 --> 00:08:09,850 So what I would say is that your the introduction of all the chapters in your thesis is the one that perhaps is rewritten and evolves the most. 67 00:08:09,850 --> 00:08:13,450 In other words, I think one can't write it at the end. 68 00:08:13,450 --> 00:08:20,030 One has to write it at the beginning because it's usually provides the student with a roadmap of what they intend to do. 69 00:08:20,030 --> 00:08:26,830 And I always get my students to turn their research proposals or proposals into some form of introduction. 70 00:08:26,830 --> 00:08:32,800 As they expand on the puzzle, they expand on the rationale and they expand on the methodology, 71 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,580 even if they're not entirely sure about the argument itself, 72 00:08:36,580 --> 00:08:47,320 because they still have to do the research, if you understand what I mean, and they then go back and revisit the introduction as they move forward. 73 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,970 So I think there are multiple iterations of an introduction. 74 00:08:51,970 --> 00:09:01,480 Go back to it at the end of the thesis when you finish the whole draft and yes, indeed, one then goes and edits it, the final draft, so to speak. 75 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,650 At the end of the writing of your thesis, you need a copy, if you like, 76 00:09:05,650 --> 00:09:10,810 a draft of the introduction at the beginning as well to give you focus and direction. 77 00:09:10,810 --> 00:09:18,610 Yeah, I think that's very fair. Actually, a lot of my introduction was written in the first year of the thesis but was then quite substantially revised. 78 00:09:18,610 --> 00:09:21,760 Once the argument had become clearer. 79 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:31,360 I suppose to an extent the kind of solution part of your four stage, your four pillars might be the bit that needs to be rewritten most. 80 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:39,010 But that's a that's a very good point, actually. Thank you. What contact do the internal and external examiners have before the viva? 81 00:09:39,010 --> 00:09:43,420 And what do they what do they have to produce before the viva starts? 82 00:09:43,420 --> 00:09:53,800 So the internal and external normally contact each other after they've read the thesis. 83 00:09:53,800 --> 00:10:06,340 In fact, it's the been the internal job to organise the time and place of the vivaand to agree that with the external and the student, 84 00:10:06,340 --> 00:10:13,120 then the internal and external, each separately without consulting with each other. 85 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:26,110 Write What's called a preliminary report in that preliminary report, they normally start off by summarising what they think the PhD is trying to do. 86 00:10:26,110 --> 00:10:32,710 So their understanding of what the aims of these are, the rationale and the methodology. 87 00:10:32,710 --> 00:10:36,410 So that's normally the first couple of paragraphs of the preliminary report. 88 00:10:36,410 --> 00:10:43,360 That's why it's so important in your introduction, you make sure that those key aspects of the thesis are clear. 89 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,920 Then they go on to assess each one of them in some detail. 90 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:59,800 In other words, they they offer their evaluation of how well the student has done each and then they determine a preliminary outcome. 91 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:07,930 In other words, they recommend minor revisions or major revisions or a pass, an unconditional pass. 92 00:11:07,930 --> 00:11:16,510 Those preliminary reports are then exchanged prior to the viva, usually some days before. 93 00:11:16,510 --> 00:11:21,910 And so so that each can reflect on the views of the other. 94 00:11:21,910 --> 00:11:30,430 Then they usually meet wherever the is taking place, often over lunch prior to the viva or or over coffee. 95 00:11:30,430 --> 00:11:36,100 They discuss their agreements and disagreements before they go in to the viva 96 00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:41,620 So when you when the student enters into the room, internal and external have already met each other. 97 00:11:41,620 --> 00:11:46,210 They've already had a substantive discussion about the thesis and about their views. 98 00:11:46,210 --> 00:11:50,670 It will always be some differences and they will have come to. 99 00:11:50,670 --> 00:12:01,020 An initial view on the thesis and its quality and the recommendation they would like to make at the end of the two or three hour, 100 00:12:01,020 --> 00:12:10,320 viva students will be asked to sit out to the outside and the internal and external will deliberate once again and see whether, 101 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:16,410 in fact, their view still stands or whether, in fact, they want to shift that view based on viva 102 00:12:16,410 --> 00:12:18,360 That's why the viva does matter. 103 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:27,940 So jumping forward slightly, then let's just imagine you sat down with your cup of tea on the thesis, which is a lovely image, by the way. 104 00:12:27,940 --> 00:12:35,470 What would you advise a student to be to be doing in that time, this kind of awkward 70 days? 105 00:12:35,470 --> 00:12:40,150 I mean, it can be it can be a significant amount of time between the Viva and the submission and viva rather 106 00:12:40,150 --> 00:12:43,930 So what would you how would you recommend a student spend that time? 107 00:12:43,930 --> 00:12:55,330 Well, I think you normally have about, am I right, three months between submission and the actual viva. 108 00:12:55,330 --> 00:12:58,690 That was certainly the case for me. I think it can be slightly more than that. 109 00:12:58,690 --> 00:13:02,000 But also, yes, it can be more. 110 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:10,330 But regardless of how long you have, I think the first thing you should do is actually take a rest. 111 00:13:10,330 --> 00:13:20,200 You probably will working very intensely on your project until submission point, and you're probably saturated by it. 112 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:26,770 And I think I say that you should take a rest, not just because you should take care of yourself and for well-being reasons, 113 00:13:26,770 --> 00:13:34,630 but also because while you're taking a rest, you are gaining critical distance from your thesis. 114 00:13:34,630 --> 00:13:45,460 And I think that's very important. Before you go into the viva that you develop some critical distance from it so that when you return to the thesis, 115 00:13:45,460 --> 00:13:51,510 which you must do in order to prepare for the viva, which is worth doing. 116 00:13:51,510 --> 00:13:58,410 You know, it's not that you've forgotten what you've written, but that you can somehow see it through clearer, 117 00:13:58,410 --> 00:14:04,080 more self-critical eyes, and I think that perspective is crucial. 118 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:09,750 So after you've taken perhaps two or three weeks off, perhaps even a month, if you can, 119 00:14:09,750 --> 00:14:14,100 it could involve a holiday, but it also could involve just doing other work. 120 00:14:14,100 --> 00:14:19,530 What you want to do is turn your mind away from the project, think about other things, 121 00:14:19,530 --> 00:14:24,420 and then come back to it afresh and you will see it with different eyes. 122 00:14:24,420 --> 00:14:32,040 And that experience of coming back to your project after leaving it for a little while is both exhilarating and exciting. 123 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:37,050 Also a little scary and sometimes a little frustrating because you, of course, 124 00:14:37,050 --> 00:14:43,530 reread it and realise the strength of the thesis as well as its limitations. 125 00:14:43,530 --> 00:14:52,050 But I think that's very important that you go into a knowing its strengths because you might even be asked this question by a cheeky external. 126 00:14:52,050 --> 00:14:57,480 What are the strengths of the thesis and what do you think the limitations of your work are? 127 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:07,290 So once you've, if you like, undertaken the moves to put you in that perspective or to acquire that perspective, 128 00:15:07,290 --> 00:15:18,540 and you need to prepare to answer four questions, there is no way you're going to have a viva without being asked all four of these questions. 129 00:15:18,540 --> 00:15:25,280 And of course, they're not going to be surprising because they pertain to the four pillars, if you like, of the the storyline of the. 130 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:31,070 The first question you're going to be asked, and sometimes it comes up at the very beginning of your viva, 131 00:15:31,070 --> 00:15:35,630 is your research question, your puzzle, your problem? 132 00:15:35,630 --> 00:15:41,540 They may ask they may ask the question in different ways. Why did you choose this topic? 133 00:15:41,540 --> 00:15:47,570 What brought you to this question? Why did you think it was so important? 134 00:15:47,570 --> 00:15:52,270 But they will ask you to explain your puzzle. 135 00:15:52,270 --> 00:15:59,390 In other words, the aims of your thesis. Second of all, they will ask you. 136 00:15:59,390 --> 00:16:09,170 What your argument is. So, in fact, I have been in the viva once where I think the external I wouldn't have done it this way, 137 00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:16,480 but the external the first question she asked was, so tell me in two sentences what your thesis is. 138 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:26,720 But you need to practise articulating the argument of your thesis in one or two sentences just in case you're put on the spot. 139 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:32,240 Third, you're going to be asked questions around the rationale of the thesis, 140 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:43,720 why you thought it was an important project to pursue in academic terms, and what do you think the contribution to knowledge is? 141 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:49,270 And finally, they're going to ask you about how you did your research. 142 00:16:49,270 --> 00:16:57,790 So in other words, your methodology, the entire viva, will be structured around those four broad questions. 143 00:16:57,790 --> 00:17:08,090 And depending on your answers, you will get subsequent questions pushing you to illuminate the work that you've done. 144 00:17:08,090 --> 00:17:12,050 So I would prepare for the viva in the interim, 145 00:17:12,050 --> 00:17:18,920 I would not believe what I've heard from some students and some colleagues that the viva doesn't really matter. 146 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,910 Some people would argue that in the end, what really matters is the thesis itself. 147 00:17:22,910 --> 00:17:31,130 In other words, what you've written, that is what's being tested and that what you actually say in the viva is neither here nor there, 148 00:17:31,130 --> 00:17:39,500 apart from the fact that one of the purposes, one of the functions of Avivah is to actually establish that you're the author of the. 149 00:17:39,500 --> 00:17:42,740 So that's that's that's one function. 150 00:17:42,740 --> 00:17:53,330 But I would argue that preparing for the viva is incredibly important for the outcome in two ways, one, emotionally and psychologically. 151 00:17:53,330 --> 00:17:58,340 In other words, you're more likely to have a good experience in the viva. 152 00:17:58,340 --> 00:18:02,900 In other words, a good conversation with your internal and external, 153 00:18:02,900 --> 00:18:10,590 if you know your thesis well and you're prepared to answer questions around those four pillars. 154 00:18:10,590 --> 00:18:21,810 And I think, second of all, if by any chance there is a difference of opinion between the internal and external about what the outcome should be, 155 00:18:21,810 --> 00:18:30,030 let's say minor revision versus major revision, your answers to those four very broad questions. 156 00:18:30,030 --> 00:18:36,890 can help them decide whether it's going to be minor or major. 157 00:18:36,890 --> 00:18:48,710 So I strongly advise students to prepare for the viva both so that they have fun and also so that the outcome is as good as it can be. 158 00:18:48,710 --> 00:18:53,150 There was one term that you used there, which I think a lot of people will have heard many, 159 00:18:53,150 --> 00:18:57,020 many times, but I think it might be worth spending them to unpick if that's OK. 160 00:18:57,020 --> 00:19:00,770 It's the idea of the Viva as a conversation, 161 00:19:00,770 --> 00:19:07,310 which I think is connected to what you were saying earlier about how depending on the answers you give to certain questions, 162 00:19:07,310 --> 00:19:11,000 the the examiners can go down different roads. 163 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:18,320 So when you think of a presumably a good viva as a good conversation, what do you what do you mean by that? 164 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:22,400 How is it different from, say, an interview, for example? 165 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:34,550 I think conversation or dialogue as a way of describing the thesis as well as viva is, is a helpful way of thinking about the whole process. 166 00:19:34,550 --> 00:19:41,640 So let me start by saying that in many respects, a thesis or a PhD 167 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:50,880 Is in fact, the product of a conversation, so in the rationale of your of your thesis, 168 00:19:50,880 --> 00:20:01,210 where you explain why you pursued this particular puzzle, you will need to lay out an academic academic conversation about your topic. 169 00:20:01,210 --> 00:20:04,330 It's often called the literature review. 170 00:20:04,330 --> 00:20:15,430 So the thesis itself represents a conversation between a group of academics who may agree or disagree with each other and yourself, in other words, 171 00:20:15,430 --> 00:20:26,610 when you write a thesis as a student, you are intervening or you're seeking to intervene in a dialogue amongst experts about the subject. 172 00:20:26,610 --> 00:20:36,230 When you do your Viva. Then you have a second type of conversation, you have a conversation with two experts in the field. 173 00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:44,960 About the conversation you've had in your thesis. So in other words, with your with your viva 174 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:53,420 your internal and external are interested not so much in determining whether they agree with your 175 00:20:53,420 --> 00:21:03,800 answers or not or whether they understand how you've come to them and why you've come to them. 176 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:11,390 Which comes itself to another point, which I think you may have raised in the discussion that I was actually in your experience. 177 00:21:11,390 --> 00:21:19,310 Is it possible to pass a viva, even if you examine it, totally disagree with your conclusions? 178 00:21:19,310 --> 00:21:26,390 I think that depends on what one means by disagree with one's conclusions. 179 00:21:26,390 --> 00:21:36,380 I'm speculating here. I'm not in the sciences, but I'm wondering whether perhaps in the sciences that may not be possible. 180 00:21:36,380 --> 00:21:41,540 In other words, if they think that you've done i don't know you've performed 181 00:21:41,540 --> 00:21:49,280 like the formulas incorrectly or misunderstood your formulas or use the wrong ones and therefore have the wrong outcomes, 182 00:21:49,280 --> 00:22:00,680 it's quite possible that perhaps you don't pass. I think in the social sciences, there's it can be a matter of interpretation. 183 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:09,150 So in the social sciences, what they will be checking and what I would check for is the level of scholarship. 184 00:22:09,150 --> 00:22:11,220 Involved in the thesis. 185 00:22:11,220 --> 00:22:22,440 In other words, has this student engaged with the right, with the relevant literature on the subject, or have they missed certain literature? 186 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:30,140 Do they show a good grasp of the conceptual and empirical material that's out there? 187 00:22:30,140 --> 00:22:39,140 And have they managed to mobilise evidence to sustain the argument that they're making? 188 00:22:39,140 --> 00:22:46,820 If they do all of that, and I still disagree perhaps with either the direction they've taken or, 189 00:22:46,820 --> 00:22:53,930 as you put it, the outcomes, then yes, yes, they will still pass. 190 00:22:53,930 --> 00:23:05,940 I've had a number of students who have mobilised or deployed theoretical perspectives that I don't find particularly interesting and or helpful. 191 00:23:05,940 --> 00:23:11,160 And a brilliant thesis can be written using both theoretical perspectives, 192 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,840 even if I'm perhaps not enamoured with them because I think there are problems. 193 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:22,350 So I might raise those problems in the viva to make sure they understand the limits of that perspective. 194 00:23:22,350 --> 00:23:28,560 But I'm going to be very happy passing them if they have done a good job mobilising evidence 195 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:34,420 for their case and showing a good understanding of the theoretical perspective and its limits. 196 00:23:34,420 --> 00:23:35,170 So thank you for that. 197 00:23:35,170 --> 00:23:43,216 I think that's a really good clarification of a point that a lot of people will have heard but may not have been able to express in detail. 198 00:23:43,216 --> 00:23:50,716 So let's jump forward now to the Viva itself. I mean, with everything we've spoken about, this has been Viva to some degree, but. 199 00:23:50,716 --> 00:23:55,776 As an examiner, whether an internal or external. 200 00:23:55,776 --> 00:24:11,046 What frustrates you in a viva, I think some viva I've really enjoyed some this and I found other viva is very difficult to get through. 201 00:24:11,046 --> 00:24:21,516 I think one of the things that students should keep in mind, as I said earlier, is that viva is a dialogue. 202 00:24:21,516 --> 00:24:34,416 It's a dialogue between three people, sometimes four, depending on whether you have two externals and one internal or just one external, one internal. 203 00:24:34,416 --> 00:24:44,946 And I think students should keep in mind that although it's intimate and that there are only three of you in a room or perhaps four, 204 00:24:44,946 --> 00:24:50,046 but somehow externals and internals are people, too, 205 00:24:50,046 --> 00:24:58,026 and that they may also come to the viva with their own baggage and in fact, may feel a little bit nervous. 206 00:24:58,026 --> 00:25:04,056 In other words, it's a performance and the student is performing, but so is the internal and so the external, 207 00:25:04,056 --> 00:25:08,886 especially if there's an internal chair and internal chair presence as well. 208 00:25:08,886 --> 00:25:18,426 And so what one wants in the performance of the viva is everyone to listen to each other, 209 00:25:18,426 --> 00:25:24,546 to be respectful and polite with each other and to enjoy it. 210 00:25:24,546 --> 00:25:31,626 So one of the things that frustrates me, if you like, is and I realise it can't be helped, 211 00:25:31,626 --> 00:25:38,916 is that if a student is so nervous that they can't engage in that dialogue. 212 00:25:38,916 --> 00:25:46,596 In other words, if they haven't prepared and therefore thrown by questions about what their puzzle is or what their thesis is, 213 00:25:46,596 --> 00:25:52,026 etc., then that conversation can slowly grind to a halt. 214 00:25:52,026 --> 00:25:58,356 And that can be frustrating for for the student, but also for the internal and external. 215 00:25:58,356 --> 00:26:03,216 So, in fact, you want the students to go into the viva, not only well prepared, in other words, 216 00:26:03,216 --> 00:26:11,706 they know their thesis well, but also hopefully you want them to go in with some enthusiasm. 217 00:26:11,706 --> 00:26:16,506 Remember, the internal and the external are experts in the field. 218 00:26:16,506 --> 00:26:23,406 And therefore, this is the you should see the viva as an opportunity to have a good natter with two people in your 219 00:26:23,406 --> 00:26:34,566 field who are interested in your project and who may well in the future become referees for jobs. 220 00:26:34,566 --> 00:26:41,286 So I think I realise this is a big ask because it's normal to be nervousl, to be nervous, 221 00:26:41,286 --> 00:26:45,576 but I strongly believe that preparing for a viva can actually reduce that 222 00:26:45,576 --> 00:26:53,816 problem and help you perform in a relaxed and congenial way in the actual viva 223 00:26:53,816 --> 00:26:58,846 I think my advice to students who are going into the viva. 224 00:26:58,846 --> 00:27:04,726 Is that they to the best of their ability, and I understand it's a nerve wracking moment, 225 00:27:04,726 --> 00:27:13,216 but they must try very hard not to become defensive in the viva 226 00:27:13,216 --> 00:27:21,346 I think I have been in some Vivas where the student has become overly defensive. 227 00:27:21,346 --> 00:27:33,916 I realise it's partly because of nerves. And as a result, the conversation has become stilted and in fact, sometimes uncomfortable. 228 00:27:33,916 --> 00:27:42,086 So remember, students need to remember that the internal and external, it's part of their job. 229 00:27:42,086 --> 00:27:48,556 It's part of their mandate to critically interrogate the piece of work in front of them 230 00:27:48,556 --> 00:27:56,316 and to engage you in a robust conversation about its strengths as well as its limits. 231 00:27:56,316 --> 00:28:07,296 So while I'm not suggesting you should concede on every point raised by the internal or external critical point, you must defend the. 232 00:28:07,296 --> 00:28:15,936 You must not become defensive. You must acknowledge that there are some limits to it. 233 00:28:15,936 --> 00:28:21,186 And you must show an understanding of why those limits arose. 234 00:28:21,186 --> 00:28:30,036 But whatever you do, don't go in there defensive because it will make your internal and external examiners defensive in return. 235 00:28:30,036 --> 00:28:34,656 So would you mind saying a bit more about major correction? 236 00:28:34,656 --> 00:28:42,126 Because I know it's something a lot of people are worried about. What's your experience with major corrections as opposed to minor? 237 00:28:42,126 --> 00:28:47,136 I think there are more major revisions than people realise. Let me put it that way. 238 00:28:47,136 --> 00:28:53,406 I think students often think that getting major revisions is a disaster. 239 00:28:53,406 --> 00:29:03,366 It's not. It's not. I mean, if you look at the if you look at the what do you call it from the description of each category, 240 00:29:03,366 --> 00:29:13,266 minor revisions should arguably only involve changes to the text typos or adding references or 241 00:29:13,266 --> 00:29:21,906 perhaps adding a table and perhaps adding a little bit of research in one discrete chapter. 242 00:29:21,906 --> 00:29:32,696 Anything more than that, anything that would require you to do the cuts across the chapters, for example, will go under major revisions. 243 00:29:32,696 --> 00:29:42,296 And yet that that may be necessary and may not take that long to do so, I think a lot of students do get major. 244 00:29:42,296 --> 00:29:52,676 That's my impression, especially since I think some years ago they made a change and they narrowed minor revisions down to two very small changes. 245 00:29:52,676 --> 00:29:56,606 So I would just encourage students to to not panic. 246 00:29:56,606 --> 00:30:01,856 They get major revisions to see that is eminently doable. 247 00:30:01,856 --> 00:30:08,006 I really like your point about cutting across chapters, being major revisions, minor revisions. 248 00:30:08,006 --> 00:30:14,846 And my impression is that minor revisions should be contained, containable, 249 00:30:14,846 --> 00:30:22,196 so we can go anywhere from typos to adding sections of a chapter, perhaps even sections to chapters. 250 00:30:22,196 --> 00:30:29,576 But anything that requires changing the story line, as I put it, is usually goes under, Major. 251 00:30:29,576 --> 00:30:41,876 I mean, keep in mind, Edward, that sometimes an external and internal will decide to give the student major revisions in part, 252 00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:49,016 in part to help them out and give them enough time to make those revisions. 253 00:30:49,016 --> 00:30:56,396 So remember, the difference between minor and major is not just about quality, if you like the thesis, 254 00:30:56,396 --> 00:31:04,586 but it's also about the amount of time that the internal and external deemed to be necessary to make the changes. 255 00:31:04,586 --> 00:31:09,476 And in order to determine that, they often ask student. 256 00:31:09,476 --> 00:31:13,796 What their needs are and what they're doing and how much time they need. 257 00:31:13,796 --> 00:31:20,096 Sometimes you might have a student that's working full time, for instance, they've had to get a job and therefore, 258 00:31:20,096 --> 00:31:26,006 the internal and external might make a decision partly about whether it's minor or a major, 259 00:31:26,006 --> 00:31:30,846 partly in terms of the amount of time that they think the student needs. 260 00:31:30,846 --> 00:31:40,966 So it's a strategic decision as well. And the last question I want to ask was a specific one about the the role of the chair, if that's OK. 261 00:31:40,966 --> 00:31:47,466 So. Increasingly at Exeter, and certainly in light of coronavirus, 262 00:31:47,466 --> 00:31:58,206 we're seeing a lot of PhDs being examined with this mysterious extra person on the panel who shouldn't and 263 00:31:58,206 --> 00:32:02,946 arguably make a huge amount of difference to the outcomes of either but whose role is very important. 264 00:32:02,946 --> 00:32:11,616 So could I ask you to say a bit more about that role, this non examining independent chair position, which I understand you've done yourself? 265 00:32:11,616 --> 00:32:23,916 Yes, although I have to say that I would I would question the idea that the independent chair plays any role in determining the outcome of viva, 266 00:32:23,916 --> 00:32:28,986 and that's not their role. The role of the of the independent chair, 267 00:32:28,986 --> 00:32:38,436 the non examining that's the key non examining independent chair is simply to to assess that you 268 00:32:38,436 --> 00:32:46,626 like and to monitor the viva and make sure that it is conducted according to the regulations. 269 00:32:46,626 --> 00:32:53,526 So they will not have read the thesis, they will have no view on on the content of it. 270 00:32:53,526 --> 00:32:58,236 They will have not be asked for their view on the outcome. 271 00:32:58,236 --> 00:33:08,616 The only thing that they are responsible for is the conduct of the viva itself and that it is conducted according to the rules. 272 00:33:08,616 --> 00:33:10,986 Can I ask a related question to that? 273 00:33:10,986 --> 00:33:19,326 This is something I've always wondered myself what once the candidate is asked to step out of the room or in my case, 274 00:33:19,326 --> 00:33:26,826 to temporarily leave the team's meeting as it was, because I had, of course, virtual viva 275 00:33:26,826 --> 00:33:29,916 What kind of things are actually said between the examiners? 276 00:33:29,916 --> 00:33:38,226 This is just a personal question I've always wondered this is it kind of oh few or is it kind of a OK or does it very much depend on the viva? 277 00:33:38,226 --> 00:33:45,876 It very much depends on the viva. And sometimes there is an overview, especially if the student is either very nervous, 278 00:33:45,876 --> 00:33:52,836 in which case the conversation is stilted and that's felt by all concerned or in the case where 279 00:33:52,836 --> 00:33:58,626 a student can be very defensive or just show no understanding of the weaknesses of the case. 280 00:33:58,626 --> 00:34:03,726 In all three cases or scenarios, vivas can be painful. 281 00:34:03,726 --> 00:34:11,586 And so the supervisors sorry, not the supervisor, the internal and external can sometimes be relieved at the end. 282 00:34:11,586 --> 00:34:16,266 Usually, however, and most of the Vivas I've done, it's very rare that that happens. 283 00:34:16,266 --> 00:34:22,656 By the way, most of the five years I've done the the internal and external look at each other 284 00:34:22,656 --> 00:34:26,946 and most of the time we've enjoyed the conversation we've had with the student. 285 00:34:26,946 --> 00:34:37,836 And in my experience anyway, is often and attempt to be as generous with the students as possible, generous and supportive of the student. 286 00:34:37,836 --> 00:34:44,616 And I think sometimes there's a misunderstanding that the job of the internal is to defend the students. 287 00:34:44,616 --> 00:34:50,496 The job of the external is to be the critical interrogator. 288 00:34:50,496 --> 00:34:53,016 In my experience, that's not the case. 289 00:34:53,016 --> 00:35:00,576 In my experience, the world of the internal is really only to make sure again, especially if there's no independent chair, 290 00:35:00,576 --> 00:35:07,386 that the Viva has been conducted in a way that is consistent with the regulations. 291 00:35:07,386 --> 00:35:13,326 Apart from that, both the internal and the external are expected to ask tough questions of the students. 292 00:35:13,326 --> 00:35:21,486 And it's not the role of the internal so-called defend the student unless unless they feel that the viva is taking 293 00:35:21,486 --> 00:35:27,216 an uncomfortable turn and that the external is being overly critical or destructive in their manner. 294 00:35:27,216 --> 00:35:31,386 But apart from that, both internal and external have the same role. 295 00:35:31,386 --> 00:35:39,486 In other words, they're there to assess the scholarship of the student and to determine whether it meets the required standards. 296 00:35:39,486 --> 00:35:44,706 What's your opinion on Mock Vivas? Do you tend to encourage your as a supervisor, 297 00:35:44,706 --> 00:35:51,426 your your students to have them always is a mock or something that you're kind of doing all through your PhD? 298 00:35:51,426 --> 00:35:54,636 I would actually encourage students to go through Mock Vivas 299 00:35:54,636 --> 00:36:05,286 I think it's good practise if for no other reason that it might help students manage their nerves. 300 00:36:05,286 --> 00:36:09,996 So if they performed the viva already with their supervisor perhaps and a friend. 301 00:36:09,996 --> 00:36:19,386 So I did it once with a colleague of mine, we both sat and pretended to be the internal and external and put the student through a grilling. 302 00:36:19,386 --> 00:36:27,216 And I think it worked very well. And hopefully it helped the student prepare for the viva because they were less nervous 303 00:36:27,216 --> 00:36:37,266 when they went in and they understood the kinds of questions they would be asked. So I think mock vivas are are are to be encouraged. 304 00:36:37,266 --> 00:36:41,376 Thanks again to Bice for that really illuminating conversation and discussion, 305 00:36:41,376 --> 00:36:46,206 which I'm sure will be very useful to those of us preparing for Vivas at the moment. 306 00:36:46,206 --> 00:36:54,696 Thank you so much to Edward and Bice for such an illuminating and supportive discussion. 307 00:36:54,696 --> 00:37:01,386 Our next episode will be the last one in this mini series on the Viva guest hosted by Edward 308 00:37:01,386 --> 00:37:07,776 In that episode, he'll be talking to one of his own Viva examiners. And that's it for this episode. 309 00:37:07,776 --> 00:37:10,896 Don't forget to like rate and subscribe and join me. 310 00:37:10,896 --> 00:37:37,505 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers, development and everything in between.  

In this episode, guest host Dr. Edward Mills talks to Professor Jon Blount, Director of Postgraduate Researcher in the College of Life and Environmental Sciences about preparing for your viva in STEMM subjects. A couple of claifications on rules and regulations at Exeter: Staff members doing a research degree viva will need two external examiners, not two internal examiners It is not possible to 'fail' your first viva - the outcomes are no corrections, minor corrections, major corrections and resubmission For minor corrections, you have 3 months to complete the revisions not two This is the first in a new series of podcasts on the viva, being developed as part of a suite of online resources by Edward for the University of Exeter Doctoral College.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,260 --> 00:00:15,880 Hello and welcome, R, D And in betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece. 2 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:32,260 And every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,260 --> 00:00:36,200 And welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens. 4 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:44,580 This episode comes to you a little late due to an incident with a microphone cable that sadly is no more. 5 00:00:44,580 --> 00:00:51,170 But I'm really delighted for the first time to bring you guest host for R, D and the In Betweens. 6 00:00:51,170 --> 00:00:55,880 So this week, Dr. Edward Mills, who has been a frequent guest on the podcast, 7 00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:02,960 is taking over and bringing us an episode all about preparing for your viiva 8 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:08,930 So Edward is working with me to develop some online resources and training about preparing for your viva 9 00:01:08,930 --> 00:01:16,550 and that includes a series of podcasts with different academics and examiners and researchers all about the process. 10 00:01:16,550 --> 00:01:23,480 So this is the first of a new series. And over to you, Edward. 11 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,050 Hello. As Kelly said in her intro, my name is Edward. 12 00:01:27,050 --> 00:01:33,890 I am a postdoc in Modern languages. And this episode of R, D and The In Betweens comes to you courtesy of Jon Blount 13 00:01:33,890 --> 00:01:42,080 director of Postgraduate Researchers in CLES, the College of Life Environmental Sciences here at the University of Exeter. 14 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:48,110 It's part of a series of interviews that I'm doing with DPGRs and examiners from around the 15 00:01:48,110 --> 00:01:54,260 university as part of the preparation for a new suite of resources on preparing for your viva. 16 00:01:54,260 --> 00:02:03,110 And Jon has very kindly agreed that we can use the long form version of our discussion as part of this podcast series. 17 00:02:03,110 --> 00:02:09,470 So I started by asking, Jonn, as you can probably imagine, whether he'd be willing to introduce himself. 18 00:02:09,470 --> 00:02:13,730 Yeah, sure. So I'm I'm Jon Blount. As you said, I'm a professor of animal physiology. 19 00:02:13,730 --> 00:02:17,720 So my sort of parent discipline is bio sciences. 20 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:25,220 But in CLES, I oversee, in addition to bio sciences, geography, sport and health sciences and psychology as well, including clinical psychology. 21 00:02:25,220 --> 00:02:29,090 So it's quite a diverse range of subject areas and quite large college. 22 00:02:29,090 --> 00:02:34,160 We've got about five hundred and seventy five students, something of that in that order. 23 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,310 You mentioned the diverse college that you have in CLES 24 00:02:37,310 --> 00:02:46,550 And I was really interested to hear about this during the preinterview chat that we had in that you've got researchers from 25 00:02:46,550 --> 00:02:52,190 areas that say human geography who might be quite close to some of the work that we do in humanities and social sciences. 26 00:02:52,190 --> 00:02:59,670 Then you also have, of course, a lot of researchers who are nearer towards the what you might call the hard sciences and in CLES 27 00:02:59,670 --> 00:03:01,370 Is that right? That's right. Yeah. 28 00:03:01,370 --> 00:03:09,140 I mean, most of most of the theses that are examined in this college would be, I guess, what you would call STEM related. 29 00:03:09,140 --> 00:03:13,730 But as you say, towards the sort of human geography and of the geography spectrum, 30 00:03:13,730 --> 00:03:20,150 we do see PhDs that can be examined, including elements of performing arts, for example. 31 00:03:20,150 --> 00:03:25,760 So, you know, a very diverse range of presentations. Yes. 32 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:34,940 And certainly we're hoping that the material in this discussion that will be useful to people then has people in STEM and everything in between. 33 00:03:34,940 --> 00:03:37,370 I was wondering if we could start just with me, 34 00:03:37,370 --> 00:03:47,960 asking when you tend to advise these students to start thinking about the viva as a moment in their course of study. 35 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:55,100 I think this is a conversation that will naturally emerge in the final you know, the final year, let's say. 36 00:03:55,100 --> 00:04:01,640 It should be it should be around the time when you're getting deep into writing up and thinking about the 37 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:06,740 kind of literature that you should be citing to properly represent the field of work that you're in. 38 00:04:06,740 --> 00:04:13,400 I mean, the choice of examiners will be strongly informed by the experience of your supervisory team. 39 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:19,700 And I think it's important. You know, it's usually the case that students are aware of who their examiners are going to be. 40 00:04:19,700 --> 00:04:26,120 At some point during the latter months when they're finishing up the up stage and end it. 41 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,330 And it's useful at that stage to kind of, you know, 42 00:04:29,330 --> 00:04:36,070 your audience really to think about who's going to be reading this and what literature they are going to be familiar with. 43 00:04:36,070 --> 00:04:40,040 You know, making sure that you properly represent their own research, 44 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:46,730 perhaps not just the broader field of literature that they will be most knowledgeable about. 45 00:04:46,730 --> 00:04:53,120 So as a sort of follow up to that, then just to sort of try and demystify the process of it. 46 00:04:53,120 --> 00:05:01,580 Could I ask what you as an examiner will do when you're given a thesis or 47 00:05:01,580 --> 00:05:08,330 approached by one of the supervisors first to ask if it's an area you'd be willing to examine. 48 00:05:08,330 --> 00:05:09,540 Yeah. 49 00:05:09,540 --> 00:05:19,200 Your typically you'd be approached by the primary supervisor who would tell you roughly what the subject area is and what how many chapters there are, 50 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,220 roughly how long the thesis says and what kind of format it's in and so on. 51 00:05:23,220 --> 00:05:30,330 And then you decide, you know, whether you're available and able to do it within the timescale that they will identify for. 52 00:05:30,330 --> 00:05:34,770 You know, they'll say to you, look, the candidates looking to submit around so and so and so we you know, 53 00:05:34,770 --> 00:05:38,390 we'd really like to have this done within two or three months of that date. Is that possible? 54 00:05:38,390 --> 00:05:47,070 And you agree or you decline depending on what what you know, what you've got on your plate at the time and so on when the thesis arrives to you, 55 00:05:47,070 --> 00:05:53,880 it will, of course, come electronically and it should also arrive as hard copy. 56 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:59,160 If it doesn't, most examiners will request that because it's a lot easier to read a large document, 57 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,810 as we all know, you know, in hard copy than on screen. 58 00:06:03,810 --> 00:06:11,040 And most examiners will have a quick flick through the thing when it arrives and just get a sense of the scale of the task ahead of them. 59 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:17,690 You know, how much time do they feel that they will need to set aside to read this ahead of the thev viva? 60 00:06:17,690 --> 00:06:25,560 Well, if there is a viva. And then usually, you know what most people will do because we've all got a lot of things going on. 61 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:37,140 It will normally be put to the side until a week or two before the date of the exam or the deadline for the submission of the report for the viva. 62 00:06:37,140 --> 00:06:46,290 And then they will they will intensively read it over a period of whatever's required, you know, two, three days as required and write the comments. 63 00:06:46,290 --> 00:06:54,030 I, I tend to go through the thesis and mark up the hard copy. 64 00:06:54,030 --> 00:06:56,520 And then after I've gone through each chapter, 65 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:04,680 I'll then type up my notes and think about which bits of it are actually substantive and need to be discussed in a in a viva or 66 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:11,790 would need to be presented to the candidate as a something they should respond to could potentially require revision and so on. 67 00:07:11,790 --> 00:07:21,620 So in that sort of post submission pre viva period, how do you typically advise a candidate to prepare for the viva? 68 00:07:21,620 --> 00:07:26,730 OK, so after you submit, obviously, there's a great sense of elation that you've sort of crossed the line and you 69 00:07:26,730 --> 00:07:32,100 tend to put the thing in the top drawer and forget about it for a few weeks, 70 00:07:32,100 --> 00:07:38,500 and that's absolutely the right thing to do. You know, just go away and forget about it, relax and do something else. 71 00:07:38,500 --> 00:07:49,390 But when it, when you when you know the date of your viva, I feel it's very important to make sure that you read the thesis and know its contents. 72 00:07:49,390 --> 00:07:53,560 Well, you know, you you can to a greater or lesser extent, 73 00:07:53,560 --> 00:08:00,010 anticipate the kinds of questions they're going to ask about each chapter and perhaps overall 74 00:08:00,010 --> 00:08:03,920 about how the thesis hangs together as a whole and what it what is its broader significance. 75 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:11,320 So for each chapter, I would encourage candidates to just read it not immediately before the viva 76 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,430 I'm not talking about the day before. I'm talking about maybe a week or two before. 77 00:08:15,430 --> 00:08:20,860 Read the chapter. Make sure you can or are clear in your own mind. 78 00:08:20,860 --> 00:08:26,710 What was the overall aim or question that we were setting out to address here? 79 00:08:26,710 --> 00:08:31,330 What were the what were the major questions and hypotheses that we approach? 80 00:08:31,330 --> 00:08:39,800 What were the major findings? And how do these findings change the way we think about the original question that we set out to answer at the outset? 81 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:45,520 You know, you can you can if you can answer those sorts of questions in relation to each chapter, 82 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:50,710 you're going to do absolutely fine, because you're almost certainly going to be asked to explain. 83 00:08:50,710 --> 00:08:55,990 What did you do? Why did you do it? What did you find out? 84 00:08:55,990 --> 00:09:02,980 You want to be all you want to almost be able to explain the purpose or the outcome of each chapter, 85 00:09:02,980 --> 00:09:10,300 as if you were writing a lay summary or or as if you were, you know, explaining to a non-specialist in the kitchen a party. 86 00:09:10,300 --> 00:09:14,540 You know what? Why what do you do? Why did you do that? What who cares? 87 00:09:14,540 --> 00:09:23,080 What did you find out? And in a conversational kind of way, you want to give a fairly pithy answer to those sorts of questions, 88 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:32,660 because you're almost certainly going to be asked. And that's really I think preparation is the key. 89 00:09:32,660 --> 00:09:40,220 Think about potential weaknesses. It's not your role to hide any potential weaknesses that you're aware of. 90 00:09:40,220 --> 00:09:50,180 It's okay to be open and talk about them, too. The examiner's main job is, as I said before, is to make sure that you wrote the thesis. 91 00:09:50,180 --> 00:09:55,130 So just make sure that you you do remember its content. 92 00:09:55,130 --> 00:09:59,140 Don't put it to one side and then literally don't look at it again for three months and 93 00:09:59,140 --> 00:10:04,050 then go into the room because you're gonna be asked detailed questions about his content. 94 00:10:04,050 --> 00:10:09,050 And you mentioned this sort of writing of reports that takes place before the viva. 95 00:10:09,050 --> 00:10:12,800 Could you say a bit more about that and about the role of different examiners? 96 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:22,040 Because, of course, there will be more than one. Yeah, there'll be an external examiner and one or more internal examiners. 97 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:29,510 If, for example, a member of staff themselves went for a PhD, if they didn't have a PhD already, they might do a PhD as 98 00:10:29,510 --> 00:10:33,860 part of their work for Exeter. They would then require two internal examiners. 99 00:10:33,860 --> 00:10:40,070 But, you know, there there are sort of process related things like that that might determine how many people are in the room. 100 00:10:40,070 --> 00:10:46,400 But, you know, there's going to be an internal examiner. At least one of those is going to be one external examiner potentially two external examiners. 101 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:54,290 If the thesis covers a very broad range of expertise, is that requires a bit more inputs to examine. 102 00:10:54,290 --> 00:10:58,550 And there might be a non examining independent chair whose role is just to oversee proceedings. 103 00:10:58,550 --> 00:11:03,320 They don't they don't read the thesis and they won't contributes the conversation 104 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,340 other than to chip in and sort of bring things back on course if they feel that, 105 00:11:07,340 --> 00:11:13,370 you know, you've overrun the time that's available or something like that. And I think that's actually our requirement, isn't it? 106 00:11:13,370 --> 00:11:19,910 With the new virtual Vivas in the age of COVID, it is a requirement of the online virtual Vivas. 107 00:11:19,910 --> 00:11:26,990 It's not a requirement, typically, unless there's something like, you know, one of the examiners has not examined at the level of the award before. 108 00:11:26,990 --> 00:11:31,800 It might require a non-examiningchair to be present just to oversee, oversee proceedings. 109 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,480 As I say, their role is just to make sure that the regulations are followed really, 110 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:41,140 and that the candidate has a fair crack, the whip to defend their thesis, as we say. 111 00:11:41,140 --> 00:11:42,800 And obviously the first step, I imagine, 112 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:50,870 is defending the thesis comes in the form of the examiners producing these reports on what you as a candidate have written. 113 00:11:50,870 --> 00:11:54,920 Could you say a bit more about what goes into these reports at all? 114 00:11:54,920 --> 00:12:02,540 Yes. So that the preliminary reports are written independently by the each individual examiner. 115 00:12:02,540 --> 00:12:12,080 And they will give an abridged version of their overall comments that they've already written up in note form or in longhand. 116 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,470 You know, they would just give a sort of a sense of where they of 117 00:12:15,470 --> 00:12:19,550 what they feel the likely outcome will be on the basis of the thesis that they've read. 118 00:12:19,550 --> 00:12:30,980 They will give a tentative recommendation at the end. I think this is I think this is worthy of the award of PhD 119 00:12:30,980 --> 00:12:35,390 It's subject to perhaps some revisions in the areas that I've outlined above. 120 00:12:35,390 --> 00:12:41,540 That's the kind of the way that that report typically. And and then then then examiners share those reports with each other. 121 00:12:41,540 --> 00:12:47,570 Usually the day before the exam, just so they're aware of the gist of what each other's feelings are. 122 00:12:47,570 --> 00:12:55,490 It's useful to have that for context. And then but you wouldn't modify those reports at that stage, even if you identified differences in your view. 123 00:12:55,490 --> 00:12:58,700 So that's that's quite normal. 124 00:12:58,700 --> 00:13:08,450 But then on that, you know, after the after the viva has taken place, the examiners would then get together virtually. 125 00:13:08,450 --> 00:13:14,990 In the current circumstances or physically, they would get together a room and they would draw up a report, 126 00:13:14,990 --> 00:13:18,710 a joint report where they make their recommendation. 127 00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:26,360 This should be awarded, you know, subject to revisions or whatever the recommendation is, though, they'll state, what their recommendation is. 128 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:32,380 And then if there are revisions required, they'll list them. That's that's the function of the final report. 129 00:13:32,380 --> 00:13:40,580 The period, of course, when the examiners are doing this before the viva itself starts is one of high tension for the student candidate. 130 00:13:40,580 --> 00:13:53,140 I remember it myself, very well, what advice do you tend to give to PGR is going into the viva about nerves and how to handle them? 131 00:13:53,140 --> 00:13:54,800 I think I think the first thing to say is, you know, 132 00:13:54,800 --> 00:14:00,030 try not to be nervous because you know more about this thing than anyone else does almost certainly. 133 00:14:00,030 --> 00:14:06,570 And that the primary function of the examiners is just to make sure to verify that you indeed wrote this thing yourself. 134 00:14:06,570 --> 00:14:10,850 You know, this is an independent, independent piece of research. And you are the author. That's their primary function. 135 00:14:10,850 --> 00:14:14,330 So, you know, of course, that is almost invariably going to be the case. 136 00:14:14,330 --> 00:14:20,180 So, you know, you should go into this feeling that you're in control. 137 00:14:20,180 --> 00:14:24,600 You know, to us to a greater or lesser extent, that you know more about this than anyone else. 138 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:31,760 So you shouldn't. Although it's almost impossible. Not to become anxious ahead of a major life event like this. 139 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,850 The examiners are going to want you to do well. And I think it's important that, you know, 140 00:14:35,850 --> 00:14:42,970 that the candidates recognise that good examiners will set you at ease when you walk into the room just by 141 00:14:42,970 --> 00:14:51,210 asking you some rather banal questions about what you've been up to since you submitted the thing or you know, 142 00:14:51,210 --> 00:15:00,190 that just conversation starts ready to break the ice. They might even give you a sense of the likely outcome before that final proper begins. 143 00:15:00,190 --> 00:15:04,110 So everybody wants you to do well. 144 00:15:04,110 --> 00:15:11,290 And in an ideal world, you will be put at ease relatively quickly after the thing starts. 145 00:15:11,290 --> 00:15:18,520 And that's something that's come up a lot, actually, in the discussions I've had with examiners and DPGRs across across colleges that 146 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:24,130 examiners will often give an indication early on over the way the wind is blowing. 147 00:15:24,130 --> 00:15:24,430 Obviously, 148 00:15:24,430 --> 00:15:32,020 that might not always be the case and you might not get this sort of early indication of whether you're going to pass with major corrections, 149 00:15:32,020 --> 00:15:35,440 minor corrections, no corrections or so on if you don't get that. 150 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,470 Is that necessarily a bad thing from the outset of either place? 151 00:15:39,470 --> 00:15:47,500 So it's sometimes quite difficult to give a precise indication because it may not be cut and dry whether they will want you to make revisions or not. 152 00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:54,520 You know, some of the some of the items that they've, some of the things they've itemised in the provisional list of corrections that 153 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,750 they they want to discuss with you will end up just being put to one side, 154 00:15:58,750 --> 00:16:03,550 having had a discussion. It's the misunderstandings cleared up and it doesn't actually require revision. 155 00:16:03,550 --> 00:16:13,150 So I think I wouldn't be at all concerned if you're not given an indication of the likely outcome is is quite often 156 00:16:13,150 --> 00:16:20,680 difficult to be definitive before you've actually heard the candidate speak and wants to do the questions in. 157 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:27,820 So once we're into the meat of the viva, if you like, past the initial introductions, those those early questions. 158 00:16:27,820 --> 00:16:34,270 Is there anything that you as an examiner like to see that gives you confidence in the 159 00:16:34,270 --> 00:16:38,380 candidate that you examine in confidence that the candidate knows what they're doing, 160 00:16:38,380 --> 00:16:42,400 knows what they're talking about? I mean, you're you know, you're an examiner. 161 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:47,050 You're looking for a thesis, a thesis that's well, well presented and has been proofs 162 00:16:47,050 --> 00:16:49,210 Read 163 00:16:49,210 --> 00:16:59,230 It makes the task of examining so much more enjoyable if you feel that the candidate has taken care over the presentation and then the proofreading, 164 00:16:59,230 --> 00:17:01,660 you know, there's really no excuse for it to be littered with typos. 165 00:17:01,660 --> 00:17:08,470 And it sets the tone in the wrong direction from the outset because you're creating a 166 00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:13,660 great deal more work for the examiners if you haven't had time or bothered to do that, 167 00:17:13,660 --> 00:17:20,800 work yourself. You know, similarly, you want to see a good you want to be easy to navigate. 168 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:28,350 So you want see a good context content section so you can find all the different bits easily and cross-reference things when you need to. 169 00:17:28,350 --> 00:17:33,940 You're to make sure that the literature is appropriately cited. We've touched on that already. 170 00:17:33,940 --> 00:17:40,450 And the other thing I suppose to say here is I think it's important to make sure 171 00:17:40,450 --> 00:17:44,950 that you deal with all all the revisions that you're given at the end of it. 172 00:17:44,950 --> 00:17:49,360 You know that the final report that you receive at the end of viva will 173 00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:54,760 potentially have a list of things that the examiners want you to correct or amend. 174 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:59,590 And, you know, occasionally candidates don't agree with all of those things. 175 00:17:59,590 --> 00:18:03,080 And and they might then choose to sort of argue the point. 176 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:11,890 And I would strongly advise against that, because it doesn't it just doesn't end well for the candidate, because it just draws out the process. 177 00:18:11,890 --> 00:18:19,410 And basically the examiners are highly unlikely to. To back down on an amendment that they've asked for. 178 00:18:19,410 --> 00:18:28,890 So that's a really interesting point, Just to check are you referring specifically to amendments that are proposed post Viva or to the kind of 179 00:18:28,890 --> 00:18:35,280 discussions that you'd have in the propositions made by the examiners during the viva itself? 180 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:36,180 No. No, 181 00:18:36,180 --> 00:18:44,220 During the discussion, I mean, it's absolutely fine to sort of argue, argue the point and perhaps not argue, but of robust discussion about something. 182 00:18:44,220 --> 00:18:50,160 If if the examiners ask you to change the way some piece of statistical analysis is done or something and you don't agree, 183 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:56,260 then it's absolutely your prerogative to figure out why you feel that they're wrong and they may well be wrong. 184 00:18:56,260 --> 00:19:00,000 I mean, that could be an example of a potential amendment that they then just scrub 185 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,810 out off the list because they realise that they misunderstood or something. 186 00:19:03,810 --> 00:19:10,800 But at the end of the process, if there are amendments or corrections requested, it will come in the form of a list. 187 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,810 And, you know, you've basically just got to do what you've been asked to do at that stage. 188 00:19:15,810 --> 00:19:21,480 There's no point arguing candidates occasionally will feel that they want to do that. 189 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:26,790 But it's a pointless exercise would be my advice. 190 00:19:26,790 --> 00:19:29,010 Yeah. Thanks for clarifying that. 191 00:19:29,010 --> 00:19:38,620 Actually, I think that resonates with a lot of what people have heard in HASS subjects as well about the need to engage in this robust discussion, 192 00:19:38,620 --> 00:19:44,700 during the viva itsel on that topic, actually, of a sort of robust discussion. 193 00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:52,130 How do you tend to encourage candidates to reach that stage? 194 00:19:52,130 --> 00:19:59,060 Well, one thing that I've heard before from a lot of people is the value of not getting too defensive in the viva 195 00:19:59,060 --> 00:20:08,130 Yes. I think, you know, you got a break. You got to recognise that. You know, exams will vary and some examiners are just human beings, 196 00:20:08,130 --> 00:20:14,810 right so they will have different demeanours and ways of approaching things and different manners of asking questions. 197 00:20:14,810 --> 00:20:21,930 But as a candidate, whatever you're presented with, you've just got to stay cool and listen to the question carefully. 198 00:20:21,930 --> 00:20:26,190 And, you know, above all, don't don't don't argue. 199 00:20:26,190 --> 00:20:32,580 Just take your time. Listen to it. Ask. Ask for a clarification if you don't understand the question properly. 200 00:20:32,580 --> 00:20:37,200 Once you do understand what they're getting out, you know, whatever it is. 201 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:47,100 Just give a calm answer. This is the best advice really is absolutely no point folding your arms and arguing. 202 00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:51,930 So when you say don't argue. It sounds like a kind of demeanour thing. 203 00:20:51,930 --> 00:20:55,890 Almost. Don't don't snap back. Just keep your cool. If that makes sense. 204 00:20:55,890 --> 00:21:03,000 Very often in in STEM subject areas that, you know, there will be multiple ways of doing something. 205 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:07,770 And the examiners may have their own particular preference of how something should be done. 206 00:21:07,770 --> 00:21:09,870 And they may say to you, I think you should do it like this. 207 00:21:09,870 --> 00:21:20,280 And it say it's absolutely fine to try to reason with the examiner why you feel the way you've done it is it is an alternative or adequate approach to. 208 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:25,500 And, you know, a good examiner, a good board of examiners would accept that they'd listen to and accept that. 209 00:21:25,500 --> 00:21:28,860 And actually, that will sort of bolster their confidence that you are in command of this. 210 00:21:28,860 --> 00:21:32,940 And as I said, it is your PhD. And you know more about this to anyone else. 211 00:21:32,940 --> 00:21:37,950 And in many cases, examiners will simply say, that's absolutely fine. 212 00:21:37,950 --> 00:21:44,400 And drop the point. You will occasionally get situations where examiner is absolutely adamant that they want something done in a particular way. 213 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:51,990 And you very strongly disagree. And that's the sort of bit where the internal examiners role really comes to the fore there, 214 00:21:51,990 --> 00:21:59,370 because they ought to be experienced enough to, you know, recognise a point when, you know, we've exhausted this. 215 00:21:59,370 --> 00:22:05,130 Now let's move on. And they will potentially intervene and say, I think we think we've covered this now. 216 00:22:05,130 --> 00:22:06,120 We'll move on at the end. 217 00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:12,660 And then, you know, yet when you see the report, the and you'll find out what the decision has been as to what they want you to do. 218 00:22:12,660 --> 00:22:19,830 But that's the point at which you there's no point arguing, just jumping back slightly, if that's okay. 219 00:22:19,830 --> 00:22:25,350 One thing that you mentioned earlier was the importance of signposting and there being a clear structure throughout the thesis. 220 00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:32,820 And another thing that came out of our discussion before I hit the big red record button was this notion of the results chapter, 221 00:22:32,820 --> 00:22:42,240 which sounds in some ways that's quite a specific STEM thing for listeners who are a maybe HASS subjects. 222 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:50,790 Would you be able to say a little bit more about what you mean by that and how that might apply more generally, this notion of results chapter? 223 00:22:50,790 --> 00:22:57,060 So the typical structure of a PhDthesis in STEM would be an introductory chapter, 224 00:22:57,060 --> 00:23:04,230 which might be a sort of a literature review type chapter that sets the research questions in the context of the existing 225 00:23:04,230 --> 00:23:11,550 literature and identifies the gaps in knowledge that you're going to address that may or may not be publishable units, 226 00:23:11,550 --> 00:23:17,910 if you like, in its own right. It might end up being a review article in in in in the STEM literature, 227 00:23:17,910 --> 00:23:25,230 or it might just serve the purpose of being part of the thesis that sort of bookends the results chapters which are in the middle. 228 00:23:25,230 --> 00:23:32,370 So after your introductory general introduction, you would typically then have a series of, you know, what we call results chapters. 229 00:23:32,370 --> 00:23:38,730 So each of those will have its own introduction methods, results, discussion, reference list and so on. 230 00:23:38,730 --> 00:23:49,740 They may or may not have been submitted for publication, as you know, individual publishable units at the point by which you have the viva. 231 00:23:49,740 --> 00:23:51,060 If they have been published, 232 00:23:51,060 --> 00:23:57,630 it's very often the case that you'll just have an interesting chat about the contents of it and what we found out about it. 233 00:23:57,630 --> 00:24:02,100 You know, what was the main question? How did you address it? What were the main findings? 234 00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:07,380 How does this change the way we view the world? You know, but they won't nit pick about details. 235 00:24:07,380 --> 00:24:11,820 And why did you do your analysis in this way? Did you think about doing in a different way? 236 00:24:11,820 --> 00:24:16,460 Because it's already been subject to peer review and and it's published. 237 00:24:16,460 --> 00:24:22,470 You know, what's the point of changing a part of a thesis that's already in the public domain as a published article? 238 00:24:22,470 --> 00:24:27,900 So most examiners won't ask you to revise published chapters. 239 00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:31,620 It can happen, but it's it's relatively unusual. 240 00:24:31,620 --> 00:24:37,180 They're more likely to spend more time talking about the aspects of the thesis which are potentially publishable, 241 00:24:37,180 --> 00:24:41,460 i.e., the results chapters which have not yet been submitted for peer review. 242 00:24:41,460 --> 00:24:46,690 So they'll be doing the job of external peer review is at that stage. 243 00:24:46,690 --> 00:24:54,540 And actually, that conversation that happens in the Viva is really, really helpful for you for when you come to write those papers up for publication, 244 00:24:54,540 --> 00:25:00,480 submit them, because hopefully with all of that expert opinion you've already had about this piece of work, 245 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,920 you'll have covered many of the issues that the. 246 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:11,110 The reviewers might might have picked up and how helpful is it, at least in in STEM specifically to compartmentalise in this way? 247 00:25:11,110 --> 00:25:17,610 I mean, I'm assuming most reviewers will take it in a relatively chapter by chapter like fashion. 248 00:25:17,610 --> 00:25:23,100 They will actually, in this subject it's actually the most common format for these conversations will be to let's start with 249 00:25:23,100 --> 00:25:30,060 chapter one and then two and three and so on you can you can approach this and examine other ways entirely up to you, 250 00:25:30,060 --> 00:25:35,940 how you approach it. But with the agreement of all the examiners, you could go it in a very much wider way. 251 00:25:35,940 --> 00:25:40,050 And just and just start with the really broad questions about, you know, what have we learnt? 252 00:25:40,050 --> 00:25:46,530 How does this how does this how does the findings of your thesis change the way we think about the original questions you set out? 253 00:25:46,530 --> 00:25:53,400 And then just sort of pick up on individual bits of it as you as you sort of navigate through that conversation. 254 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:59,970 And that might be the more appropriate way to do it. If, for example, as exceptionally to be fair, but if, for example, 255 00:25:59,970 --> 00:26:07,110 the candidate had already published all of their results, chapters in the peer reviewed scientific literature, 256 00:26:07,110 --> 00:26:15,930 then it might be appropriate to have a slightly different style of conversation in the viva, where you just go at it from a much broader perspective. 257 00:26:15,930 --> 00:26:20,010 I was going to ask actually on that subjects, would you recommend, therefore, 258 00:26:20,010 --> 00:26:30,180 at least in STEMM subject that candidates try and sort of publish as much as possible prior to their PhD just to give themselves that insurance? 259 00:26:30,180 --> 00:26:34,610 I wouldn't say recommend because it's so project specific. You know, some it's some projects. 260 00:26:34,610 --> 00:26:38,760 The results only come towards the end. It's just a necessary part of it. 261 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:44,460 You know, if you're working on a longitudinal study of a mammal in the wild or something, 262 00:26:44,460 --> 00:26:49,920 you might only get all of your data in the final year and so on. So it's almost impossible to publish as you go. 263 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:56,160 But, you know, in in this subject area, we are we're all obsessed, if you like, 264 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:01,590 in our careers are judged on the numbers and quality of the publications that we produce. 265 00:27:01,590 --> 00:27:09,420 And so, you know, all all supervisors will be encouraging you to look for opportunities to publish as you go. 266 00:27:09,420 --> 00:27:14,510 Based on that, then, would publication make you untouchable in a viva on a given chapter, 267 00:27:14,510 --> 00:27:18,540 or is that, as I suspect, something of an oversimplification? 268 00:27:18,540 --> 00:27:25,290 It's an oversimplification, but, you know, the role of the examiners is to make sure you have been examined. 269 00:27:25,290 --> 00:27:31,350 You know, it'd be remiss of them just to have a laid back conversation if you just because you've published everything, 270 00:27:31,350 --> 00:27:37,710 they would be looking to test you on your thoughts about what are the most significant parts of what you've found. 271 00:27:37,710 --> 00:27:42,990 And, you know, why should we care about what you've found and how could this apply to fields, you know, 272 00:27:42,990 --> 00:27:48,240 outside of your immediate gaze and subject area and so on, mean they will as experienced academics, 273 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,360 they will want to make you feel like you've had an exam, 274 00:27:51,360 --> 00:28:02,510 although a constructive and enjoyable conversation that just for the final part of our conversation, I was wondering if we could look at little bit more. 275 00:28:02,510 --> 00:28:07,950 Are some of the outcomes. We've briefly touched on these already. 276 00:28:07,950 --> 00:28:10,230 But just to begin with the basic points. 277 00:28:10,230 --> 00:28:17,910 Am I right in thinking that the standard outcomes od pass with no corrections, with minor corrections, major corrections, 278 00:28:17,910 --> 00:28:27,370 that sort of range of outcomes and of course, other ones alongside that are broadly consistent in STEM subjects as well as in HASS? 279 00:28:27,370 --> 00:28:29,100 The potential outcomes are the same. 280 00:28:29,100 --> 00:28:36,150 And at the end of the viva of the examiners will send you out of the room, you know, physically or figuratively speaking, 281 00:28:36,150 --> 00:28:40,770 if it was a virtual viva and they'll have a conversation about what their recommendations are going to be, 282 00:28:40,770 --> 00:28:44,700 then they'll call you back in and they'll tell you verbally what the recommendation is. 283 00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:50,700 Of course, if it's no corrections, it's just a case of, you know, slapping each other on the back and wishing you well. 284 00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:54,960 If it's if the recommendation is for major or minor corrections, 285 00:28:54,960 --> 00:29:02,400 then they'll explain to you why they feel that's justified and what you're required to do for the award. 286 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:09,020 And then you will be sent the written up report once they've conferred and actually got it down in writing. 287 00:29:09,020 --> 00:29:17,100 You will be sent that within a few days usually, and you'll be given a period of time in which you need to turn it around and resubmit it. 288 00:29:17,100 --> 00:29:21,300 And then once the revisions are received back at the university administrative hub, 289 00:29:21,300 --> 00:29:29,900 they will be sent to the internal examiners whose role is just to go through and check that you've done all that you were asked to do. 290 00:29:29,900 --> 00:29:35,160 And if there's any uncertainty in their mind about that, they will confer with the external examiner. 291 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,600 But in most cases, the external examiner isn't consulted at that point. 292 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:47,970 And it the case in sciences as it is in, has subjects that you're not allowed to contact your examiners for further feedback. 293 00:29:47,970 --> 00:29:54,060 No, it's really important you don't contact the examiners. It compromises their position. 294 00:29:54,060 --> 00:29:57,420 They won't welcome the approach and it and it contravenes our rules. 295 00:29:57,420 --> 00:30:04,310 And regs so potentially would render the examination invalid and you'd have to do it again. 296 00:30:04,310 --> 00:30:10,170 There is that the option of going through your supervisor. But that can only happen once. 297 00:30:10,170 --> 00:30:15,090 As I understand it. Yeah. I don't know about the frequency, whether it once or whatever. 298 00:30:15,090 --> 00:30:22,270 It's some it. It's not generally considered to be a good idea for any one to confer with the examiners would be my advice. 299 00:30:22,270 --> 00:30:27,520 You can go back to the internal examiner would be that the supervisor could approach the 300 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:32,880 internal examiner and ask for clarification about the wording of something that would be okay. 301 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:39,490 Yeah. I think that would be fine once. And what is the distribution curve, if that's the right term? 302 00:30:39,490 --> 00:30:46,330 Look like what percentage of candidates will get no minor major correction. 303 00:30:46,330 --> 00:30:52,870 So in our college, minor corrections is the most common outcome. 304 00:30:52,870 --> 00:31:00,160 Something like 80 percent of submitted theses will get minor corrections, no corrections, 305 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:12,070 about 10 percent major corrections or other potential outcomes like a fail or award of a lower degree and MPhil or that sort of thing. 306 00:31:12,070 --> 00:31:20,760 That would be, you know, in the single figures. And how do people tend to react to all of the different outcomes that they might achieve? 307 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:25,410 I went into my viva I remember hoping for minor corrections. 308 00:31:25,410 --> 00:31:28,930 Is that sort of the attitude to take, would you say? I think so. 309 00:31:28,930 --> 00:31:32,410 I mean, if you if you've prepared the thesis, you know, 310 00:31:32,410 --> 00:31:38,170 if you've if you've had it read by your supervisors and you've gone through rounds of revision and so on, us, 311 00:31:38,170 --> 00:31:43,570 as should be the case, then everyone should feel reasonably confident that the point that which is submitted, 312 00:31:43,570 --> 00:31:47,480 that this is going to get a pass with no no major difficulties. 313 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:53,830 That's why major corrections or a fail or award of a lower degree is that is a relatively rare outcome. 314 00:31:53,830 --> 00:32:00,060 Yes. Can I ask first what constitutes minor corrections as opposed to say no corrections? 315 00:32:00,060 --> 00:32:08,320 Yeah. So minor corrections is typically could just be a list of typos, you know, or very minor things. 316 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:13,240 Like I think you should reference this additional area of literature, which you haven't mentioned. 317 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:21,610 If that list of very minor issues becomes increasingly very long and pervasive throughout the thesis, 318 00:32:21,610 --> 00:32:28,300 then potentially that could in itself swing it towards major corrections because it would require longer than, 319 00:32:28,300 --> 00:32:34,750 you know, just two months to fix sort of thing. It's it's a wholesale rewriting that could potentially constitute major corrections. 320 00:32:34,750 --> 00:32:42,370 The more common justification for the requests of major corrections is if there are aspects of the analysis, 321 00:32:42,370 --> 00:32:48,420 i.e. the data analysis in STEM that require doing again. 322 00:32:48,420 --> 00:32:53,740 And that could potentially also the interpretation, because the results are not known, 323 00:32:53,740 --> 00:33:01,060 because the analysis hasn't been revised and might not require more data gathering. 324 00:33:01,060 --> 00:33:06,360 Or would it be a question for major corrections of reinterpreting the data they already have? 325 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:12,670 If it required more data to be collected, that would almost invariably constitute a recommendation of major corrections. 326 00:33:12,670 --> 00:33:14,980 Because you can't predict what the outcome of that would be. 327 00:33:14,980 --> 00:33:21,670 That would in fact probably be the sort of thesis that might be failed and would be, you know, 328 00:33:21,670 --> 00:33:25,880 you're asking a student to do more work, substantially more work and then try again. 329 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,610 That that would that would be major corrections. But it's typically it's typically, you know, 330 00:33:30,610 --> 00:33:35,890 examiners might not like the way that the statistical modelling has been done and they feel there's 331 00:33:35,890 --> 00:33:41,260 a reasonable chance that it could render a result that you think is statistically significant, 332 00:33:41,260 --> 00:33:46,840 being non significant, or it could be that they think there's more to this story, 333 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,530 that your analysis hasn't done it justice and, you know, you should do it in a different way. 334 00:33:50,530 --> 00:33:57,010 And that, almost by definition, is is going to result in a recommendation of major corrections. 335 00:33:57,010 --> 00:34:02,350 Presumably, the simple fact of there being more can be done in a given area would not be enough to constitute corrections, though. 336 00:34:02,350 --> 00:34:06,410 It's more to do with your individual project. Yes. 337 00:34:06,410 --> 00:34:14,770 And will more to be done to properly interpret the outcomes of the results that you've posed and the results from your studies? 338 00:34:14,770 --> 00:34:19,210 This has nothing to do with the fact that you may not have covered all the different things you might have done. 339 00:34:19,210 --> 00:34:23,110 That's not their role, but that's not their role to assess. 340 00:34:23,110 --> 00:34:29,740 And how the candidates usually respond if they come out and provide them with major corrections as opposed to, say, minor corrections. 341 00:34:29,740 --> 00:34:36,640 It's usually apparent by the end of the discussion that, you know, if if a thesis is going to get a recommendation of major corrections, 342 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:41,140 I think the candidate would come out of the viva pretty much expecting that outcome. 343 00:34:41,140 --> 00:34:47,680 It wouldn't typically be a surprise. They'd be told at the end. You know, we're recommending major corrections for the following reasons. 344 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:55,450 But I think because of that, the nature of the conversation that they've had for the last whatever is two and a half to four hours, 345 00:34:55,450 --> 00:35:02,380 then they would they would have a rough idea of what way the wind is blowing by the end of it. 346 00:35:02,380 --> 00:35:07,340 How do people tend to respond to that? Is it sort of disappointment, acceptance somewhere in between? 347 00:35:07,340 --> 00:35:14,260 Well, I think in acceptance. I mean, most of us, you know, we some people some people will submit a thesis where they know there are issues, 348 00:35:14,260 --> 00:35:20,890 you know, they expect there to be conversation about one ot Two aspects of that already have an inkling that they're going to be asked to do revisions. 349 00:35:20,890 --> 00:35:23,260 It's just a question of how much they're asked to do. 350 00:35:23,260 --> 00:35:29,980 And I don't think it's it's not usually a surprise some people will hand in a thesis in a wishing 351 00:35:29,980 --> 00:35:36,340 they'd had an additional two weeks to polish all the little bits which that could otherwise have done. 352 00:35:36,340 --> 00:35:38,300 And so they'll be expecting some revisions. 353 00:35:38,300 --> 00:35:45,170 But it's just down to the judgement of the examiners really to decide whether it's whether they want revisions and whether it's major or minor. 354 00:35:45,170 --> 00:35:47,020 There are a couple of other points I'd make. 355 00:35:47,020 --> 00:35:56,290 One is that, you know, if it were a recommendation of no corrections doesn't mean that the thesis is absolutely polished and there are no typos in it. 356 00:35:56,290 --> 00:36:02,530 It it's it's at the discretion of the examiners to make a recommendation of no corrections if they feel that it's. 357 00:36:02,530 --> 00:36:06,010 I mean, clearly, it's you know, it's really top notch work. 358 00:36:06,010 --> 00:36:14,260 They just they don't want to burden you with going through and fixing the fact that you you've missed a Full Stop on page 116. 359 00:36:14,260 --> 00:36:19,270 You know, that that's that's the sort of thing the recommendation. No correction doesn't mean there's absolutely nothing wrong. 360 00:36:19,270 --> 00:36:24,850 It just means they've taken the view that you've done far away enough for the award. 361 00:36:24,850 --> 00:36:31,540 So just to conclude, could I ask what your advice would be to somebody who comes out of viva specifically with major corrections, 362 00:36:31,540 --> 00:36:36,400 whether they expected it or otherwise? Well, you know, 363 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:41,020 take a minute to digest what's being asked of you and the scale of the task of what you need to do and 364 00:36:41,020 --> 00:36:46,420 then confer with your supervisory team and come up with a plan about how you're going to tackle this. 365 00:36:46,420 --> 00:36:55,060 And the timeline of when you're going to achieve this and so on. I think it's worth the risk worth reflecting on the fact that a recommendation 366 00:36:55,060 --> 00:36:59,560 of major corrections or minor corrections or whatever the recommendation is, 367 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,550 it is down to the examiners in their judgement to come up with this view. 368 00:37:03,550 --> 00:37:09,220 But but that decision is also checked by two other senior experienced academics. 369 00:37:09,220 --> 00:37:12,370 It's checked by the college director of postgraduate research. 370 00:37:12,370 --> 00:37:23,420 So every single examiners recommendation that gets submitted back to the PGR administrative team then gets referred to the college director of PGR. 371 00:37:23,420 --> 00:37:32,590 So me in CLES and I go through and I'm specifically looking to see whether I feel the list of recommendations that they've come up with. 372 00:37:32,590 --> 00:37:39,250 Sorry, the list, the list of revisions or amendments that the examiners are requesting justifies the 373 00:37:39,250 --> 00:37:44,560 recommendation that I'm looking for correspondence between the recommendation of major minor, 374 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,960 no corrections and so on. And the revisions are being asked for. 375 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:55,240 And I and I will sometimes challenge the examiners on that and occasionally I'll overturn it. 376 00:37:55,240 --> 00:38:04,460 But it's usually it's usually the case that I agree with the recommendation after the college director of PGR is checked, 377 00:38:04,460 --> 00:38:08,320 that it then gets referred to the dean of the doctoral college as well. 378 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:18,460 So to two other people have checked this. And so it should be a sort of a robust recommendation. 379 00:38:18,460 --> 00:38:23,710 Thank you very much to Jon Blount there for taking the time to discuss these questions with me. 380 00:38:23,710 --> 00:38:33,750 It's certainly been really interesting for me from a predominately humanities perspective to get a STEM view on these questions of the viva, 381 00:38:33,750 --> 00:38:38,590 and that would nevertheless hopefully be useful for people from all manner of backgrounds. 382 00:38:38,590 --> 00:38:43,060 I hope it is a useful topic to discuss. 383 00:38:43,060 --> 00:38:45,540 If you're preparing for your own viva yourself. 384 00:38:45,540 --> 00:38:53,290 And I also hope that this interview that we had has done double duty effectively as an episode of R, D and in betweens 385 00:38:53,290 --> 00:38:59,790 Thank you very much to Jon again and thanks for joining me. 386 00:38:59,790 --> 00:39:04,620 And that's it for this episode. Forget to like, rate and subscribe. 387 00:39:04,620 --> 00:39:31,531 Join me next time. We'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.    

In this episode I talk to Dr. Kay Guccione, Senior Lecturer in Academic Development about her work, research and expertise in mentoring and coaching for researchers. During the podcast Kay mentioned a resource about Choosing, Recruiting and working with a mentor which is available online. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,230 --> 00:00:13,640 Hello and welcome to R, D and The Inbetweens. 2 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:32,180 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,180 --> 00:00:39,980 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and The Inbetweens. In this episode, I'm going to be talking to my colleague, Dr. Kay Guccione. 4 00:00:39,980 --> 00:00:47,840 Kay, I've known for a few years because of her expertise and amazing work in mentoring and coaching for researchers. 5 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:53,570 So I wanted to invite Kay on the podcast to talk about why it's important to have a mentor. 6 00:00:53,570 --> 00:00:59,630 What thebenefits are also about how she sets up mentoring schemes for researchers. 7 00:00:59,630 --> 00:01:04,910 So, Kay, happy to introduce yourself. My name is Kay Guccione. 8 00:01:04,910 --> 00:01:09,860 I work at Glasgow Caledonian University and I work in academic development. 9 00:01:09,860 --> 00:01:18,920 I lead on things like professional recognition through HEA accreditation, but also on mentoring and community building for our staff who teach. 10 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:26,030 So the reason we want to chat today was about the kind of mentoring and coaching aspect of the work you do. 11 00:01:26,030 --> 00:01:34,790 And I wondered if you could tell us a little bit about how how you became interested in this area, because you've done a huge amount work in it. 12 00:01:34,790 --> 00:01:41,750 Yeah, I. You know, I never had a mentor until really recently or really anybody who's played a role. 13 00:01:41,750 --> 00:01:47,360 Anything in my development, like mentoring is, as we understand it now as a professional practise. 14 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,500 And really, my undergrad and PhD looking back, 15 00:01:49,500 --> 00:01:57,590 I really have made use of that kind of thing because as a person who likes to sound things out makes up my mind by doing that sort of, 16 00:01:57,590 --> 00:02:02,840 you know, talking it through, seeing what comes out and then making sense of that. 17 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,200 I could have used that kind of development myself. 18 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:14,720 But my first encounter with mentoring was when I moved out of postdoc and I was a science postdoc and I moved into being a postdoc developer. 19 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:23,920 So research developer and one of the projects on the long list of things to do for postdocs just said you're mentoring programme as as the Concordat 20 00:02:23,920 --> 00:02:27,770 did in that days. You know, it just it said postdocs should have some mentoring. 21 00:02:27,770 --> 00:02:32,360 So it was a really blank canvas open to whatever we made of it. 22 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,390 Really, I don't know anything about mentoring. I never experienced it firsthand. 23 00:02:35,390 --> 00:02:41,930 So I popped over to Sheffield Hallam University to meet Paul Stokes in the mentoring and 24 00:02:41,930 --> 00:02:47,240 Coaching Research Unit down there and to get the support of that team really in terms of, 25 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,050 you know, what's a programme? What does it look like? What is happening? What was mentoring? 26 00:02:51,050 --> 00:02:56,060 What the mentor supposed to do? So very naive. Which went along and ask some experts. 27 00:02:56,060 --> 00:03:00,410 I suppose that's a particular skill of mine. Go and ask someone who knows. 28 00:03:00,410 --> 00:03:06,440 And we started the programme and it immediately became my favourite piece of work. 29 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:13,780 You can see the transformation happening and mentoring is really rich learning and it's personalised to each individual mentee that comes in. 30 00:03:13,780 --> 00:03:20,990 And because it's contextualised as it helps them do the things that they want to do, it has really immediate impact. 31 00:03:20,990 --> 00:03:30,040 And people were raving about it, about the quality of the conversations that they were having with their mentors and what it was enabling them to do. 32 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,830 It became just a dream to work on. So over time, that programme grew. 33 00:03:33,830 --> 00:03:39,200 It became massive. It went to institutional level and then spun off into smaller programmes like thesis 34 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:45,080 mentoring and the mentoring for researchers who want to get careers outside the academy. 35 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:51,060 And then from that into a suite of new programmes supporting people across the University of Sheffield. 36 00:03:51,060 --> 00:03:57,800 Alongside that, I'd done a Masters is a master's in education with a coaching and mentoring specialism through the University of Derby. 37 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:04,760 So I have imbibed all experience at programme development level and then all the training that underpins it. 38 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:14,810 I was able to make a case very during a team restructure that there should be a role dedicated to mentoring, coaching in communities. 39 00:04:14,810 --> 00:04:20,750 And I did that role in Sheffield from 2012 to 2019. They want to move to GCU in 2019. 40 00:04:20,750 --> 00:04:26,970 That sort of work, again, became a large part of my role because it works, you know, because it's something we can put into place. 41 00:04:26,970 --> 00:04:31,670 It's I mean, it's personalised and we see the results within six months of what is going on. 42 00:04:31,670 --> 00:04:41,480 So that's fabulous. You know, you said just that, you know, how much you enjoy that work and how quickly you see the impact and the benefits. 43 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:52,160 I mean, making that case for a dedicated role to look at mentoring, coaching, it's not it's not an easy thing within. 44 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:59,000 A higher education. But could you talk a little bit about some of the impact and benefits that you see? 45 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:07,590 Yes. And I think the thing the thing was that helps me making that case when the role is that mentoring isn't the way I see is. 46 00:05:07,590 --> 00:05:14,400 Mentoring isn't a project has very limited reach. If it's seen as something that is a project, you know, alongside, 47 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:19,140 we do this kind of training course and that kind of network and this kind of mentoring programme. 48 00:05:19,140 --> 00:05:23,880 If you see mentoring as something systemic, you know, and you think in systems of mentoring. 49 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,370 So we've got the senior academics mentoring the junior academics. 50 00:05:26,370 --> 00:05:31,630 They're mentoring the postdocs, postdocs mentoring the PGR as PGRs are peer mentoring with each other. 51 00:05:31,630 --> 00:05:38,460 And, you know, it's if you see as something that cascades out and understand the difference that can be made, 52 00:05:38,460 --> 00:05:44,850 if everybody has this skill set and everyone can apply that skill set not just to a mentoring programme, 53 00:05:44,850 --> 00:05:48,940 but, you know, in small group teaching, you can use these skills as a  line manager. 54 00:05:48,940 --> 00:05:52,290 You can use these skills as a PhD supervisor, you can use these skills. 55 00:05:52,290 --> 00:06:03,840 So once I became to see it as a systems of work, it was much easier to show what impact it would have at that organisational level. 56 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:07,940 And in terms of the individuals that that's where it starts, you know, the impact on this person. 57 00:06:07,940 --> 00:06:14,340 So I guess at its most basic level, mentoring is a confidential space where someone can sit down, 58 00:06:14,340 --> 00:06:18,750 think out loud, check things out and just find out how stuff works. 59 00:06:18,750 --> 00:06:23,410 So even at that basic one to one level, there's probably something in it for everyone, 60 00:06:23,410 --> 00:06:30,420 because the questions that you have and the things you want to talk about a personal to you coming into that mentoring programme, 61 00:06:30,420 --> 00:06:36,990 the mentors, they're you know, they help you make some time and some space to actually sit down and think about yourself for a change. 62 00:06:36,990 --> 00:06:40,560 Think about where you go in. We don't often get to do. A real privilege. 63 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:48,420 And I think the quality of the plans we put into action are probably represented by the quality of the thinking that went into them. 64 00:06:48,420 --> 00:06:56,660 So being able to find our feet and find our way forward is something that's a key impact of those mentoring kind of conversations. 65 00:06:56,660 --> 00:07:00,180 You know, if it depends what people are looking for, it's a chance to be heard and really listened to. 66 00:07:00,180 --> 00:07:03,240 That's not very common in pressured competitive environments, 67 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:10,890 particularly suited to the research environment, I think, to make that space to be heard and be listened to. 68 00:07:10,890 --> 00:07:16,920 And, you know, if we understand how something works, the game of academia, what the rules are, how to navigate it with them, 69 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:26,370 building confidence to try things out and building confidence in ourselves as researchers and ask people who have something to contribute. 70 00:07:26,370 --> 00:07:30,450 If you're kind of person, who needs a bit of a push or some accountability to say, get your papers written. 71 00:07:30,450 --> 00:07:36,810 A mentor can help with that. If you're someone who needs, you know, at a time where they need a get support and a sympathetic ear. 72 00:07:36,810 --> 00:07:41,220 Mentors can offer that. If it's just a, you know, case of what next. 73 00:07:41,220 --> 00:07:44,470 I don't know what the options are on where to go. Mentors can offer that as well. 74 00:07:44,470 --> 00:07:49,000 So whatever you bring to it, that's what you work on. 75 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:56,610 And I think if people see it really as an arena for doing a piece of planning rather than for solving a problem particularly, 76 00:07:56,610 --> 00:08:01,500 you can start to see how it fits into into everyday work and everyday life. 77 00:08:01,500 --> 00:08:08,010 And we've all got things on the horizon we need to think about. Let's do that thinking in a systematic way with someone who wants to help us. 78 00:08:08,010 --> 00:08:11,870 And I think it gives us that time to do what you know, 79 00:08:11,870 --> 00:08:20,670 we we don't have time to do so often at higher education, which is to take a step back and reflect and plan. 80 00:08:20,670 --> 00:08:26,700 And I know in in my role as a researcher developer, which obviously, you know, you've done that as well. 81 00:08:26,700 --> 00:08:31,320 And now as a senior lecturer working in academic development, 82 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:38,250 you know that the time and the facility for that just feels like it's dwindling as a 83 00:08:38,250 --> 00:08:45,180 kind of academic workloads and expectations and outputs and everything kind of grows. 84 00:08:45,180 --> 00:08:52,740 But actually, it's those conversations like you're talking about those plans that planning, that time for reflection, 85 00:08:52,740 --> 00:09:00,590 for strategic thinking about what comes next, that's actually going to help us to do the productive aspect of it. 86 00:09:00,590 --> 00:09:07,800 Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's there's very famous cartoon where there's a sort of a cave dwelling person pushing 87 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:12,870 a cart with square wheels and there's the developer there offering them round wheels and they say, 88 00:09:12,870 --> 00:09:19,410 you know, I haven't got time for this. I'm too busy. And you figure this would really help with what you're trying to achieve? 89 00:09:19,410 --> 00:09:23,760 And I think absolutely, we cannot deny that workloads have rocketed. 90 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,680 There's not enough staff in universities. Everybody's doing at least a job and a half right now. 91 00:09:28,680 --> 00:09:33,540 And I think as somebody who designs programmes and designs mentoring conversations, 92 00:09:33,540 --> 00:09:39,750 even just having the chance to go and meet a mentor is being pushed out. 93 00:09:39,750 --> 00:09:43,530 So it's a cases and, you know, how else can we get these conversations into things? 94 00:09:43,530 --> 00:09:46,980 How can we make them part of peer observations or peer review? 95 00:09:46,980 --> 00:09:51,450 How can we make them part of team meetings or annual appraisal systems and. 96 00:09:51,450 --> 00:09:55,590 How can we we get these. The quality of conversation. 97 00:09:55,590 --> 00:10:03,540 Two things people are obliged to do, even if they can't find time to sort of, you know, sit down for the hour. 98 00:10:03,540 --> 00:10:10,740 What can be done and trying to find ways to fit it in a simple cost is for postgraduate and early career researchers. 99 00:10:10,740 --> 00:10:18,870 I wonder if you could say something about maybe the benefits of engaging in mentoring and coaching at that stage of your career. 100 00:10:18,870 --> 00:10:29,800 But also why it's something that they should make the time for, because they're not necessarily part of those kind of line management type structures. 101 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:36,750 to a certain extent. I think it is about readiness because mentoring is a piece of work that researchers do. 102 00:10:36,750 --> 00:10:42,330 You know, it's not it's not a magic fix. It's not a case of going off to meet somebody and then receiving the answers. 103 00:10:42,330 --> 00:10:53,640 It is a piece of self evaluation. It requires you to be open and be honest with yourself, at least about where it is you want to go. 104 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:59,610 And where you're at right now. So I would say firstly, if people really believe it's not for them and don't want to, 105 00:10:59,610 --> 00:11:05,070 that's absolutely fine, because it does require a certain amount of energy and input from the researcher. 106 00:11:05,070 --> 00:11:09,110 But if you are ready for that and you're thinking, you know, who do I choose and how? 107 00:11:09,110 --> 00:11:14,130 I'm happy to pass on a whole resource that I've got about how to consider that. 108 00:11:14,130 --> 00:11:21,540 I'll make sure that that gets passed over. Linked to the main things to think about are who do you. 109 00:11:21,540 --> 00:11:28,500 Who do you want to work with? Who would you like to speak to? And the people who you might identify as being really appropriate mentors, 110 00:11:28,500 --> 00:11:33,180 people with big CVs, lots of publications, you know, big research teams, actually. 111 00:11:33,180 --> 00:11:39,510 Are they the best mentors? You know, we're looking at mentoring. As I said, is a specific skill sets. 112 00:11:39,510 --> 00:11:42,960 It's an education based skill set, is an interpersonal skill set. 113 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:49,530 So look around for the person who everybody thinks is a good, you know, a good supporter. 114 00:11:49,530 --> 00:11:53,100 Look at that. Their PhD students. Their postdocs. The research teams. 115 00:11:53,100 --> 00:11:57,180 And you can ask, you know, of a good person to speak to. 116 00:11:57,180 --> 00:12:02,700 And then when you approach a mentor, I would say it's good to tell them who you are, what you might be aiming for, 117 00:12:02,700 --> 00:12:11,610 what you might want from them, where you're aiming to go, perhaps, and then what you've seen about them that you think you could benefit from. 118 00:12:11,610 --> 00:12:20,100 And I think if we start off together on this understanding that mentoring is a piece of work that the mentee does, the mentor is the support for that. 119 00:12:20,100 --> 00:12:20,910 And in order to support, 120 00:12:20,910 --> 00:12:28,740 they've got to have these these great skills were probably in the right mindset for understanding if mentoring is for us right now. 121 00:12:28,740 --> 00:12:33,280 If you are thinking about try and out, but you're hesitating a bit. 122 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:39,120 I mean, just give it a go. What's what what could happen. You know, you might think, actually, I picked the wrong person. 123 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:45,990 Never mind. Let's just say thanks and move on or I don't really see what I've got out of that that I couldn't have done on my own. 124 00:12:45,990 --> 00:12:50,970 That's perfectly fine. Some people like to work, you know, in as as an individual on paper, in the heads. 125 00:12:50,970 --> 00:12:54,750 That's fine. It's a skill set. And you can self coach and self mentor. 126 00:12:54,750 --> 00:13:02,040 Once you know these kind of self-analysis tools and ways of thinking, you can ask yourself coaching questions as well. 127 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:08,470 If there's nobody available to you around, you could get together with peers, talk to friends, have a little coaching session. 128 00:13:08,470 --> 00:13:13,080 You know, there's there's always some way to do the kind of reflection that I'm talking about. 129 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:19,290 So start small. Build up. Decide if you like it. If you don't know where is in that. 130 00:13:19,290 --> 00:13:28,130 All of this is the schemes that you've run. And I know at Sheffield that the the volume of them kind of in the end was huge, 131 00:13:28,130 --> 00:13:33,810 are there kind of really tangible benefits that you saw from people going through that scheme in terms of 132 00:13:33,810 --> 00:13:39,710 kind of how they move forward with their careers or research completion publication that that sort of thing. 133 00:13:39,710 --> 00:13:42,810 Yeah. I would say when you're evaluating mentor or you want to look first, 134 00:13:42,810 --> 00:13:49,200 they experience people have because that will give you that will give you a sense of what might happen in the future. 135 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:56,070 Now, with mentoring programmes, you know, can be short just in a few months, six months, say what we probably aren't expecting. 136 00:13:56,070 --> 00:14:00,820 And that time is for someone to get five publications out just because of the timelines that research and publishing 137 00:14:00,820 --> 00:14:10,070 and those kinds of indicators of academic esteem work on different timelines to mentor and obviously so on the. 138 00:14:10,070 --> 00:14:15,920 On the programmes I've worked on, I've always asked people, you know, did this make a difference to your sense of belonging to the university? 139 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:22,040 Did it make a difference to your confidence? Did it make a difference to the strategies and plans you've put into place? 140 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,850 And then what we see is further down the line that we see the tangible benefits of that. 141 00:14:25,850 --> 00:14:32,130 So we might get the person who gets the fellowship. We might get the person who gets a different job, decides what career they want to move into, 142 00:14:32,130 --> 00:14:39,290 gets their publishing done, gets involved in the kind of outreach or public engagement work that they want to do. 143 00:14:39,290 --> 00:14:41,210 The goals are personal to the individuals. 144 00:14:41,210 --> 00:14:50,480 But if we start with the support, the confidence and the planning, those more tangible or hard benefits will tend to come after that. 145 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:59,960 And I think that's the key for me in so much of the development work that we do as a researcher, academic people would have a developers. 146 00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:07,190 Is that, you know, sometimes because because of the nature of H-E and the kind of culture of the speed of it, 147 00:15:07,190 --> 00:15:10,600 the level of workload, there's a kind of desire for a quick fix. 148 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:15,320 There's a kind of okay, but I need something that's gonna give me a very tangible, very clear output now. 149 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:20,750 So, you know, I have it when people come to workshops. So, you know, we're going to workshop or writing your literature review. 150 00:15:20,750 --> 00:15:24,800 They kind of want to leave. Being able to sit down and write the literature review immediately afterwards, 151 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,420 whereas it's not what we're dealing with is something more complex and that a 152 00:15:28,420 --> 00:15:32,810 more reflective that gets you to kind of work towards being able to do that. 153 00:15:32,810 --> 00:15:37,400 And. And I think I can really see that in what in what you're saying, actually, 154 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:43,020 it's it's not gonna give it's not necessarily going to give you that immediate kind of. 155 00:15:43,020 --> 00:15:46,890 OK. You've had a meeting. Here's a tangible thing that you can take away. 156 00:15:46,890 --> 00:15:48,920 And you've got output or you've got you know, 157 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:54,890 you've got something you can write on a CV or look up on a screen or hold in your hand or whatever it is. 158 00:15:54,890 --> 00:16:01,220 It's actually accepting that the benefit that the tangible or the kind of hard benefits, 159 00:16:01,220 --> 00:16:05,700 as you call them, of this tend to come in the long term rather than the short term. 160 00:16:05,700 --> 00:16:09,230 Yeah, absolutely. So this is kind of a transformative process. 161 00:16:09,230 --> 00:16:13,820 And, you know, you might get a person coming into mentoring who's already got all this skills. 162 00:16:13,820 --> 00:16:19,670 They've got all of the aid is there ready to go. And all they need is somebody to say, yes, you can do it, you know? 163 00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:22,430 And then you get to see a very immediate benefit. 164 00:16:22,430 --> 00:16:27,380 But you might also get somebody coming into the same mentoring programme who's just starting a journey. 165 00:16:27,380 --> 00:16:30,110 And it's got to figure out a lot. A lot of things. 166 00:16:30,110 --> 00:16:37,250 You know, they it takes time to have ideas, to develop ideas, to draught writing and to to develop that writing. 167 00:16:37,250 --> 00:16:45,230 I think we absolutely have to look where people come in and where they where they finished mentoring programmes, 168 00:16:45,230 --> 00:16:49,860 you know, the objectives that they set for themselves at the beginning. How far along did they get those? 169 00:16:49,860 --> 00:16:58,370 And some of that's in setting smart objectives, you know. Is it about having 10 papers at the end of this programme or is it about figuring out 170 00:16:58,370 --> 00:17:03,070 one good place to publish and really understanding what that journal is looking for? 171 00:17:03,070 --> 00:17:10,550 We've got different, different people coming in at different stages of their thinking, different stages of their understanding. 172 00:17:10,550 --> 00:17:12,950 And that's why we have to work at the individual level. 173 00:17:12,950 --> 00:17:19,000 We have to make sure that the support that's received is tailored to where that person's at and where they want to go. 174 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,940 You know, I, I know from myself, when I've gone into mentoring, I've gone into it and gone. 175 00:17:22,940 --> 00:17:27,160 I know I need somebody to talk to you, but I don't have any idea what I'm aiming at 176 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,680 And that's that's the most mentees I've worked with. 177 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:37,440 We don't all turn up going. Here is my goal. You know, sometimes it's like I think something's wrong, 178 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:42,920 but I'm not sure what it is or I think something could be better or I don't understand what is expected of me. 179 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:51,500 And these are normal reactions to have at work. You know, it's complex and figuring out different work relationships and figuring out, you know, 180 00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:59,750 what's possible for you and how you'd like to approach that is something that we all go through and a mentor can most definitely help with. 181 00:17:59,750 --> 00:18:06,750 So you mentioned earlier that. You know, a lot of this is is it is an eco system. 182 00:18:06,750 --> 00:18:13,790 Yeah, it's the kind of the senior professors mentoring the senior lecturers, mentoring the kind of newer academics, 183 00:18:13,790 --> 00:18:17,510 mentoring the postdocs, mentoring the PGRs you know, who are mentoring each other. 184 00:18:17,510 --> 00:18:22,970 So it is that kind of top down or bottom up, which is where you want to look at the ecosystem. 185 00:18:22,970 --> 00:18:26,240 And I wondered if you could talk a little bit about how that. 186 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:37,370 How that kind of looks and operates and the benefits of that kind of level of an engaged mentoring culture amongst academics. 187 00:18:37,370 --> 00:18:45,620 Yeah, so I would say how it looks now is not how it looks when you start it, you don't have to do all in the first instance. 188 00:18:45,620 --> 00:18:51,980 It's not a case of, you know, assembling 10000 people and making a culture of mentoring. 189 00:18:51,980 --> 00:18:59,840 On day three, it's how it started. It started with 12 people, six pairs. 190 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:06,440 So six academic volunteers and six postdocs is where it started. 191 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:11,660 And I think if you focus at that point on making sure everybody has a good experience and making 192 00:19:11,660 --> 00:19:16,040 sure at the end of it you understand what's made that a good experience and what the outcomes were, 193 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:22,190 those people will then start to do the work for you because the postdocs will tell other people this was great. 194 00:19:22,190 --> 00:19:26,780 Get on board with it. You know, if I go back to the mentors and say, would you mentor for us again? 195 00:19:26,780 --> 00:19:30,650 And also can you recommend a colleague? And we started we sought to double up. 196 00:19:30,650 --> 00:19:35,720 So there comes a time when people are experienced as mentors say you got your 197 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,650 most senior academics and they will come to you and start asking questions. 198 00:19:39,650 --> 00:19:49,460 You know, I want. They might say I would like my Masters course to have a mentoring component with industry, or they might say, 199 00:19:49,460 --> 00:19:58,100 I want all of my first year to do peer mentoring conversations with each other as a formative assessment before they get into their four, 200 00:19:58,100 --> 00:20:01,910 they get into their summative assessments and you start to help with that and that. 201 00:20:01,910 --> 00:20:07,310 And so you start to see that the mentors who've had a really good experience want more of it. 202 00:20:07,310 --> 00:20:12,730 They're trying to bring it into the departments for, say, new new academic starters on probation. 203 00:20:12,730 --> 00:20:14,570 They're trying to bring it into their taught courses. 204 00:20:14,570 --> 00:20:18,860 They're trying to bring it in with the people they supervise because they've had that good experience. 205 00:20:18,860 --> 00:20:25,610 They can see the benefits. And then is a case of saying, you know, we've got a lot of people now, postdocs, for example, 206 00:20:25,610 --> 00:20:31,750 who've experienced having a mentor and why shouldn't they have the same skills? 207 00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:35,570 You know, why shouldn't they also be able to apply this? We've got all these PGRs 208 00:20:35,570 --> 00:20:42,500 So, again,  it's more recruiting, piloting, trying to understand what's going on, thinking what what do people need to get done? 209 00:20:42,500 --> 00:20:46,160 They need to get their theses done. What have postdocs already done? 210 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,670 They've written their thesis. So here we've got a hook to hang mentoring on. 211 00:20:49,670 --> 00:20:53,960 We say, you know, this is not just about generic career support or career mentoring, 212 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:58,140 which I actually think PGRs are very well served for most universities now. 213 00:20:58,140 --> 00:21:01,670 But saying what targeted thing can we achieve with mentoring here? 214 00:21:01,670 --> 00:21:07,460 So postdoc thesis mentors was where I went next, coming out of thesis mentoring. 215 00:21:07,460 --> 00:21:14,060 People were saying, I wish I'd had this earlier. I really wish I hadn't left it to the last six months of my PhD to have a mentor. 216 00:21:14,060 --> 00:21:22,330 Fantastic. So what can we do at an early stage? And I'm looking then at a confirmation review which might be called upgrade of first year vivas 217 00:21:22,330 --> 00:21:29,510 But that piece of written work. Students have to do in order to remain on their doctoral course. 218 00:21:29,510 --> 00:21:35,000 And then on the other side of that, recognising that. So having a day, a year, you know, 219 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:40,310 there might be a national or international mentoring day or other event in the calendar 220 00:21:40,310 --> 00:21:44,690 for your university where you want to highlight all of the good stuff that's going on. 221 00:21:44,690 --> 00:21:51,480 So really championing that and saying, you know, we've had 100000 mentoring conversations at the university in the last year or. 222 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:56,030 And these are all the different kinds of groups we've served. These are all the different kinds of outcomes. 223 00:21:56,030 --> 00:22:01,580 We have and making sure that's very visible and it's very seen, of course, the university. 224 00:22:01,580 --> 00:22:08,720 But all that grows over time. So, you know, pick your six PGRs and start there and give them a good experience. 225 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,070 And it proves itself and it will grow from there. 226 00:22:13,070 --> 00:22:21,920 Yeah, I think really inspiring and and that's the importance of kind of start small and let people appreciate the benefits. 227 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,750 And then that will in and of itself, in and of itself, do the work for you. 228 00:22:25,750 --> 00:22:32,840 Yeah, absolutely. I was really interested in what you were saying there about the thesis mentoring, because I think one of the things that I, 229 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:38,720 I find when I talk to PGRs is that as a mentor, they don't think they've got anything to offer. 230 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:48,560 So they they they sort of would love to have, you know, be a mentee and have a mentor who either are most more experienced senior PGR or an academic, 231 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:53,900 but they don't see in themselves what they have to offer as a mentor. 232 00:22:53,900 --> 00:22:59,060 I find that really just really challenging sometimes because I think particularly with peer to peer stuff 233 00:22:59,060 --> 00:23:04,340 One of the barriers that that certainly I feel that I have in the research community 234 00:23:04,340 --> 00:23:09,110 is that that it's they don't see the experience they have to offer. 235 00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:17,420 Yeah. And we know PGRs and that's incredible, isn't it, because we see that the huge amount of value that they bring to universities, I mean, 236 00:23:17,420 --> 00:23:22,310 really smart people who've achieved throughout their academic careers, 237 00:23:22,310 --> 00:23:31,220 who've come into a PhD as like independent thinkers and scholars, very proactive people, very engaged people, very smart. 238 00:23:31,220 --> 00:23:35,390 There's very definitely something people can can offer there. 239 00:23:35,390 --> 00:23:38,960 But I think. Because mentoring and the skills of mentoring. 240 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:47,840 I talked about before this very person centred philosophy. The skills don't rely on the mentor having all the answers they rely on the mentor, 241 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:54,230 having the appropriate skills to question, to listen, to facilitate and to support other people. 242 00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:58,070 And those are learnt skills. That's not something you just have to have or don't have. 243 00:23:58,070 --> 00:24:02,150 So, you know, every mentoring programme should come with some training for the mentors. 244 00:24:02,150 --> 00:24:10,610 And if you ask me, the mentees. But, you know, as as programme designs and programme owners, we should definitely be preparing mentors, 245 00:24:10,610 --> 00:24:14,510 making sure they've got the skills, making sure they know how to to apply them. 246 00:24:14,510 --> 00:24:21,350 And I think it's really empowering. If you get away from this advice based model of mentoring where the mentor has all the answers, 247 00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:27,650 the mentor asks the question, the mentor gives the answer. Yeah. You know, some of that might take place, but that's only half the story. 248 00:24:27,650 --> 00:24:35,620 It's kind of half mentoring. The the skills of being able to say to somebody, what if you already tried, you know. 249 00:24:35,620 --> 00:24:37,940 Well, how has that gone? And what do you think you're going to do next? 250 00:24:37,940 --> 00:24:43,940 And really facilitating that mentee to think through the different issues that are 251 00:24:43,940 --> 00:24:48,830 going on and to have the power basically to go make that change for themselves. 252 00:24:48,830 --> 00:24:56,620 Thanks so much to Kay for taking the time out of what I know is an incredibly busy schedule to talk to me about coaching ang mentoring. 253 00:24:56,620 --> 00:25:01,130 We're thinking a lot about peer mentoring in particular as Exeter at the moment. 254 00:25:01,130 --> 00:25:06,650 So it was a great to have the opportunity to talk to Kay in detail about how 255 00:25:06,650 --> 00:25:12,260 these things get off the ground and kind of how to kind of take that step back, 256 00:25:12,260 --> 00:25:19,370 start small and let the impact of mentoring kind of do the work for you and growing it, 257 00:25:19,370 --> 00:25:24,740 but also really focussing on the idea that mentoring is not a knowledge base. 258 00:25:24,740 --> 00:25:30,400 It's a skill set. It's not about having all the answers. It's about helping ask the right questions. 259 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:35,510 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to, like, rate and subscribe and join me. 260 00:25:35,510 --> 00:26:02,117 Next time. We'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

In this episode I talk to regular contributor Dr. Edward Mills about taking a break. As the flipside to my episode with Ellie Hassan before Christmas we discuss what it's like when you're not very good at taking breaks, and how we using our hobbies and interests to get ourselves away from the computer, and the culture of overwork. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,230 --> 00:00:15,870 Hello and welcome to R, D and The Inbetweens. I'm your host, Kelly Preece. 2 00:00:15,870 --> 00:00:32,270 And every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:36,360 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens. 4 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,280 I'm coming to you from a an almost two week break from work. 5 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:47,060 So I took a couple of weeks of annual leave and inspired by that, I wanted to do a second podcast episode about taking a break. 6 00:00:47,060 --> 00:00:52,370 So you might remember, I spoke to one of our PGR Ellie Hassan, before Christmas about taking a break. 7 00:00:52,370 --> 00:00:57,440 And she talked about the kind of really practical way she approaches her research 8 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,910 degree as a job and kind of doesn't feel guilty for taking these breaks. 9 00:01:01,910 --> 00:01:05,660 So I thought it might be good to come at it from the other side of the coin. 10 00:01:05,660 --> 00:01:09,200 So I'm talking once again to a regular contributor. 11 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:20,690 I think we call him now Edward Mills, who is now Dr. Edward Mills, officially about being the kind of people that aren't very good at taking breaks, 12 00:01:20,690 --> 00:01:25,190 who regularly experience burnout, how we manage that, 13 00:01:25,190 --> 00:01:33,740 and also kind of what strategies we have in place and particularly kind of hobbies and activities we engage in. 14 00:01:33,740 --> 00:01:39,630 to basically force us to take those much, much needed breaks. 15 00:01:39,630 --> 00:01:48,380 Okay, so let's start with kind of a million dollar question is, which is why do you find it so difficult to take a break? 16 00:01:48,380 --> 00:01:56,600 I suppose it's just kind of the way I am really the risk of sounding a little bit like I'm sitting on a psychiatrist's couch. 17 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:03,290 It's it's sort of just the way I've always been at it. I don't quite know why, but I know what that means. 18 00:02:03,290 --> 00:02:11,510 In a practical sense. For me, it means that I'm always thinking about work in one way or another. 19 00:02:11,510 --> 00:02:19,050 And it's quite difficult to train my brain out of that. Yeah, and I, I can relate to that in a lot of ways, but I think different. 20 00:02:19,050 --> 00:02:24,080 I do know why I;m like that, and I think that's probably because of the job that I.m 21 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,460 in the you know, it's it's my job to understand these kind of cultures of work. 22 00:02:28,460 --> 00:02:31,850 And I think there's an anxiety element to it. 23 00:02:31,850 --> 00:02:40,400 There's a perfectionism element to it, significant perfectionism, an element that kind of keeps you feeling like you you must keep working. 24 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:45,350 And I think being the product of a very particular kind of school system that, you know, 25 00:02:45,350 --> 00:02:49,310 I went to old fashioned grammar school and it was very much kind of like you work 26 00:02:49,310 --> 00:02:55,550 constantly rather than thinking about kind of quality over quantity necessarily. 27 00:02:55,550 --> 00:03:01,160 And one thing to add on that front, actually, I think very often when you hear people say, 28 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:09,270 oh, I can't stop working, I'm always working, I find it hard to relax. That tends to be seen as something of a humble brag 29 00:03:09,270 --> 00:03:14,460 It's not, though, it's not, though. No, this is the thing, really. Certainly, certainly in my case it's not. 30 00:03:14,460 --> 00:03:18,090 I actually think that in many ways what I do is worse because of this. 31 00:03:18,090 --> 00:03:22,530 This is it can be something of a problem. What I'm saying. 32 00:03:22,530 --> 00:03:27,460 Oh, I'm saying. Oh, I'm always thinking about work. That doesn't mean that I'm always working. 33 00:03:27,460 --> 00:03:34,320 No, what it actually means is that I'm always running on about 30 percent capacity. 34 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:40,260 Even when I should be running on 100 percent, I'm just running on 30 percent when I should also be running on zero percent. 35 00:03:40,260 --> 00:03:44,190 What is it that that phrase that you said that your dad uses to describe you? 36 00:03:44,190 --> 00:03:54,610 You're either flat, flat out or. Yeah, my my dad my dad had a phrase that he used to describe me, which is I have two speeds. 37 00:03:54,610 --> 00:04:01,860 I'm either flat out as in going flat out or flat out as in flat out on the floor. 38 00:04:01,860 --> 00:04:07,020 Which pretty much sums me up. I think it sums up a lot of people who do who do a PhD 39 00:04:07,020 --> 00:04:10,620 By no means. By no means everybody. Nor is it an ideal to aim towards. 40 00:04:10,620 --> 00:04:14,370 No, but it is a common experience. And I've I've, as you know, 41 00:04:14,370 --> 00:04:21,060 written a bit about this in a chapter that's coming out about the culture of overwork and imposter syndrome and the way that 42 00:04:21,060 --> 00:04:27,410 that feeds into this kind of really complex and toxic culture of kind of we'll just sit in front of a computer and work, 43 00:04:27,410 --> 00:04:28,200 work, work. 44 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:37,680 But also, you know, the the challenge when you're so invested in the work that you do because you have to be to motivate yourself to to do research, 45 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:39,720 it's difficult to leave that behind. 46 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:46,440 I think I'm apart from the fact that I've kind of it's my job and it's now my research to reflect on these things. 47 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:54,410 I think, you know, having been an academic and I, I always say that I was a very successful academic, 48 00:04:54,410 --> 00:05:01,950 but I was also a very unsuccessful at being an academic in the sense that, you know, I've got good module evaluations. 49 00:05:01,950 --> 00:05:06,660 I presented my work at conferences, I got publications, I brought in research funding. Did all of the ticked all of the boxes. 50 00:05:06,660 --> 00:05:11,190 You've got to tick. But I burned myself out. 51 00:05:11,190 --> 00:05:16,680 I did it twice in the space of five years. And in very different ways. 52 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:24,660 Very different reasons. But overwork is that is at the heart of it and not being able to really manage work life balance. 53 00:05:24,660 --> 00:05:31,440 And that's why I stopped being an academic. I learnt that actually I wasn't very good at putting those boundaries in place. 54 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:37,890 And that's why, you know, and I've talked I talk about it a lot. That's why I went into professional services, because it's it's more nine to five. 55 00:05:37,890 --> 00:05:46,800 It's encourages work life balance more. And given the kind of person that I am, it's better for me to manage. 56 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,330 And I suspect that this will come up in the discussion that we have today. 57 00:05:49,330 --> 00:06:03,750 But one of the things to bear in mind when we talk about what I do to to to relax and how I do that is the fact that I I don't have young children, 58 00:06:03,750 --> 00:06:06,840 you know, or really all that many caring responsibilities. 59 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:16,050 If you want a good example of how diverse people's experiences of engagement with academia are. 60 00:06:16,050 --> 00:06:17,970 Some people, those of you who are on Twitter, 61 00:06:17,970 --> 00:06:28,410 will probably have seen the response recently to academic who who tweeted piece of advice on how they have had 75 published pieces since 2008. 62 00:06:28,410 --> 00:06:30,700 I think it was. 63 00:06:30,700 --> 00:06:38,610 And the responses to that are very interesting because they they highlight how many people are juggling academia with caring responsibilities, 64 00:06:38,610 --> 00:06:43,980 with families, with other jobs, with independent research, with other work. 65 00:06:43,980 --> 00:06:50,260 And that's not something that I myself have necessarily got much experience in doing. 66 00:06:50,260 --> 00:06:56,520 No and it is very much that really old fashioned now mantra publish or perish within the academy. 67 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:02,910 And it you know, it links into these things about metrics and outputs and the way that we kind of that we value the 68 00:07:02,910 --> 00:07:07,590 outcomes of research in terms of the REF and the way that we value teaching in the in the TEF 69 00:07:07,590 --> 00:07:11,070 And now the KEP has launched. So we got all of the Fs 70 00:07:11,070 --> 00:07:15,690 And I think that the really important thing there is well, there's two really important things. 71 00:07:15,690 --> 00:07:19,860 One is that this is the culture of higher education. 72 00:07:19,860 --> 00:07:28,410 And so, too, it's a kind of go against that and take breaks and have a work life balance and practise self care. 73 00:07:28,410 --> 00:07:34,990 All of these things are a kind of quite a complex, difficult and brave act. 74 00:07:34,990 --> 00:07:41,460 And because you're going against the system essentially. So I often do this and I do a career talk. 75 00:07:41,460 --> 00:07:47,280 It's called I call it an alternative career talk that kind of maps, my career path and work on, if possible, career story. 76 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,960 And it's very good. Yeah, lots of people have seen it lots of times. 77 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:56,250 I guess it's it's the classic kind of will will carry out talk about this. 78 00:07:56,250 --> 00:08:01,920 But it's it is a reflection on why I stopped being an academic and a lot of ways and I talk about my 79 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:06,270 life when I was an academic and fact that I was working seven days a week on a four day week contract. 80 00:08:06,270 --> 00:08:08,860 And I was working, you know, from 8 81 00:08:08,860 --> 00:08:17,250 In the morning to 9 o'clock at night, and I was completely burnt out and I had literally no life, I had no you know, I lived away from my family. 82 00:08:17,250 --> 00:08:24,320 I moved to a new place. I wasn't able to make friends because I was working all the time and. 83 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,260 They kind of really negative space that got me into. 84 00:08:27,260 --> 00:08:35,210 And what I've got now and one of the things I talk about now is kind of, you know, the fact that I enjoy my job and I'm good at what I do, 85 00:08:35,210 --> 00:08:49,310 but also that I have these miraculous things called hobbies and interests that I just was not able to have when I was when I was an academic. 86 00:08:49,310 --> 00:08:54,200 And I'm not like I always sort of say I'm not suggesting that you can't do these things as an academic. 87 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,470 I'm saying that I couldn't do these things as an academic. It's very personal. 88 00:08:57,470 --> 00:09:01,880 And I think in many ways you should do these things as you absolutely should. I just wasn't right. 89 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,900 And I know lots of people who managed to do it. I'm not very good at it. 90 00:09:05,900 --> 00:09:11,780 And it's one of those difficult kind of reflections where you go, actually, 91 00:09:11,780 --> 00:09:15,320 I'm really good at this thing, you know, being an academic and there's things about it I love. 92 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:21,620 But actually it and I aren't really suited for each other in lots of different ways. 93 00:09:21,620 --> 00:09:24,860 And I just wasn't very good at managing that. 94 00:09:24,860 --> 00:09:29,270 But now, as I said, I work an environment that's more nine to five. 95 00:09:29,270 --> 00:09:34,190 So I have that, you know, I have that privilege, I guess. 96 00:09:34,190 --> 00:09:41,540 And it's much more encouraged. But I am much more having burn out so significantly a couple of times. 97 00:09:41,540 --> 00:09:51,500 I am more diligent with myself in recognising the signs, but also be kind of engaging in hobbies and practising self care. 98 00:09:51,500 --> 00:09:55,370 And if you follow me on Twitter, you'll know that I talk about this non-stop. 99 00:09:55,370 --> 00:10:01,880 And I've got a book chapter coming out about it. So it's it's it's become the thing to talk about, but to talk honestly about it. 100 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:07,290 And sometimes that's saying, you know, I'm not very good at it. So. 101 00:10:07,290 --> 00:10:13,290 Thinking about that and we can talk about some of mine in a minute, but like what are your what are your hobbies? 102 00:10:13,290 --> 00:10:20,370 What are you. What are the things that you do to take you away from the research that force you into a break? 103 00:10:20,370 --> 00:10:25,770 You know, if we change languages here is would basically be a GCSE French speaking exam. 104 00:10:25,770 --> 00:10:29,580 Always the linguist. Sorry, everybody. No. 105 00:10:29,580 --> 00:10:32,980 So to answer the question, there's a few, I think. 106 00:10:32,980 --> 00:10:39,660 And they fall into a couple of different categories. The general thing that connects them is organised fun. 107 00:10:39,660 --> 00:10:44,020 And in the I love organised fun. I know in the in my research for this 108 00:10:44,020 --> 00:10:47,670 I went up and looked looked up the phrase organised fun favourite definition 109 00:10:47,670 --> 00:10:51,930 for it comes in the ever reliable and ever well sourced urban dictionary, 110 00:10:51,930 --> 00:10:59,670 which describes it as a compulsory activity organised to work, intended to be fun. 111 00:10:59,670 --> 00:11:05,430 But in fact, so lame that it's impossible to actually enjoy ourselves or words to that effect. 112 00:11:05,430 --> 00:11:10,500 They they don't know me. I disagree with that as well. 113 00:11:10,500 --> 00:11:18,300 I've tended to find that because I am generally just not very good at sitting with my feet up and doing nothing. 114 00:11:18,300 --> 00:11:25,860 I tend to gravitate towards activities that have a measurable goal or outcome to them. 115 00:11:25,860 --> 00:11:35,430 So longtime listeners to this podcast. Know, that a few months ago I talked about the benefits of going very fast down a hill on a bike. 116 00:11:35,430 --> 00:11:42,240 I can now confirm I'm actually going slightly slower down the hills on bikes than I was and certainly a lot slower going up the hills on bikes. 117 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:43,860 Better. I was who I was before. 118 00:11:43,860 --> 00:11:55,170 But with the resumption of organised sport activities, I've got back into cycling with other people again, which is really fun. 119 00:11:55,170 --> 00:12:03,330 It combines the social benefits of seeing other people with not having to just sit and argue, where will we go next? 120 00:12:03,330 --> 00:12:12,290 Because you're constantly moving, which is always a benefit. Also, cafe stops because cafes are good. 121 00:12:12,290 --> 00:12:22,240 If exercise is one of the things I do, though, I think the trend towards organised fun is something that I'd kind of carry elsewhere as well. 122 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:30,610 So one subject that I have not spoken about before on this podcast is scale modelling. 123 00:12:30,610 --> 00:12:39,410 This is something I have gotten into lately. It is quite possibly the geekiest hobby I've ever had. 124 00:12:39,410 --> 00:12:44,660 And that's saying something. Yes, but it effectively involves making scale models using little kits 125 00:12:44,660 --> 00:12:50,210 Nice. So there is a shelf next to next to the desk that I use, 126 00:12:50,210 --> 00:12:56,720 which is basically full of little models of aircraft in terms of time investment vs. money spent. 127 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:05,900 They're actually pretty good because for 10 pounds you can get about four or five hours of building out of it. 128 00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:12,170 Effectively, you can do it well or you can do it like I do, which is badly. 129 00:13:12,170 --> 00:13:15,590 But however you do it, what a hobby. 130 00:13:15,590 --> 00:13:20,570 Like scale modelling or I think in your case, is it Lego? 131 00:13:20,570 --> 00:13:27,260 Yes, it's like I would do. Is it will it's a bit difficult to do Lego badly. 132 00:13:27,260 --> 00:13:31,880 I think I would manage it. But whatever the hobby is, and however you do it 133 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:37,640 The benefit of a hobby like that is that it forces you to spend time away from the screen. 134 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:42,020 And this is something I think I spoke about on the podcast about writing up a few months back. 135 00:13:42,020 --> 00:13:48,680 about getting away from the screen while still doing something is the main way really in which I relax. 136 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:53,030 And I think that, like, you know, you said the Lego and I think it's a key example for me. 137 00:13:53,030 --> 00:13:58,360 You know, it's it's very much the same. It has to be organised, kind of goal oriented. 138 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:07,940 I like following instructions. I'm just that kind of person. And so doing things like building diaogon alley out of Lego 139 00:14:07,940 --> 00:14:16,190 And, you know, the other thing I do with my time, which is sewing or various forms of crafting and crochet, I do embroidery and cross stitch. 140 00:14:16,190 --> 00:14:20,450 Any any of the crafting. I like the productiveness of it. 141 00:14:20,450 --> 00:14:27,980 I feel like it. I think there's an inbuilt thing of feeling, not feeling like I'm wasting time, like I'm getting this. 142 00:14:27,980 --> 00:14:32,090 There's physical output to it. So it's going back to that kind of output mentality. 143 00:14:32,090 --> 00:14:40,280 You know, if there's a dress or a jacket or a shawl or a jumper that says I just need some space surrounded by planets, 144 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:45,530 that's something I'm currently working on. But I love the idea of the Airfix Excellence Framework 145 00:14:45,530 --> 00:14:50,600 The Lego Excellence Framework. The LEF. Yeah, the LEF. But all of yeah. 146 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:55,130 All of these things kind of are very instructions oriented. You kind of create something out of it. 147 00:14:55,130 --> 00:14:56,210 Even with the Lego, you know, 148 00:14:56,210 --> 00:15:05,210 I've got I'm looking at various bits of Hogwarts are to the left of me and then diagon alley in the hallway to the right 149 00:15:05,210 --> 00:15:09,920 Hogwarts to the left of me diagon alley to the right. Here I am stuck in the middle. Yes, very much so. 150 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:14,450 But it's you know, there's there's that sense of output. 151 00:15:14,450 --> 00:15:20,890 But I think for me, coming from a creative background, there's a creativity element to it, particularly to the crafting and the sewing 152 00:15:20,890 --> 00:15:26,690 You know that there is that element that, you know, is in my personality. 153 00:15:26,690 --> 00:15:30,260 But also there's an awful lot of research about the impact of creativity and creative, 154 00:15:30,260 --> 00:15:38,210 active activities on wellbeing and on kind of personal identity and self kind of realisation, 155 00:15:38,210 --> 00:15:45,530 actualisation, all this of stuff, which is why creative practises are used in therapeutic context, right? 156 00:15:45,530 --> 00:15:52,520 Absolutely. And if I can go off on a slight tangent here with respect to some of the research that I've done, 157 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:59,090 there's a lot of evidence that in creative writing or their most effective ways to do this and to get outputs, 158 00:15:59,090 --> 00:16:02,570 to use that terminology again, is to work on the constraints. 159 00:16:02,570 --> 00:16:10,340 The Olipou movement in post-war France wrote about this idea of 160 00:16:10,340 --> 00:16:16,370 constrained literature whereby in order to motivate yourself and to stimulate yourself, 161 00:16:16,370 --> 00:16:24,050 you give yourself limits within which to work. The most famous example of this is  George Perec, who published entire novel that. 162 00:16:24,050 --> 00:16:36,080 Doesn't use the letter E once. Yes. And I think this feeds into the idea of harnessing your personality rather than trying to fight against it. 163 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:45,440 If you are a working person, by which I mean if you're someone who struggles to switch off, switch off. 164 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:50,740 And still switch off. And again, I hasten to add, that can often be a very bad thing. 165 00:16:50,740 --> 00:16:52,550 It's absolutely always a very bad thing. 166 00:16:52,550 --> 00:17:02,030 The best way to relax, therefore, is to acknowledge that and give yourself something else to do rather than to try and say no. 167 00:17:02,030 --> 00:17:07,730 Now I am going to relax. The important thing in that case is that you do give yourself things to do. 168 00:17:07,730 --> 00:17:10,770 Otherwise, when you're on your day off, you will. 169 00:17:10,770 --> 00:17:15,940 Find yourself itching just to maybe reply to that one e-mail, it wants to feel like you've not wasted your day. 170 00:17:15,940 --> 00:17:20,130 Yeah, and I think that is kind of that's another bit of it, 171 00:17:20,130 --> 00:17:25,080 because the days where I don't do very much and like, you know, I've just come back from some annual leave. 172 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:35,130 And actually I was incredibly tired because we've been working flat out since January and there's a global pandemic and, you know, all of these things. 173 00:17:35,130 --> 00:17:40,680 And so I did a lot of sleeping or resting and I didn't actually get to do any 174 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,610 any sewing or any of my kind of hobby type stuff until the end of last week. 175 00:17:44,610 --> 00:17:46,630 And I was really frustrated. I was like, I have waste. 176 00:17:46,630 --> 00:17:55,680 I've wasted wasted the time because the idea that you don't have an output to your time is is really difficult for me. 177 00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:02,460 And so I think what you're saying about harnessing your personality and finding it's you know, it's the stuff I talk about in terms of self care. 178 00:18:02,460 --> 00:18:07,500 It's finding what works for you as a person because it will be incredibly specific. 179 00:18:07,500 --> 00:18:17,070 And hobbies always are incredibly specific. And, you know, sometimes you have to you know, I've I tend to be kind of instructions oriented. 180 00:18:17,070 --> 00:18:24,170 But during the pandemic, I finally committed to taking up the ukulele and had one for a couple of years. 181 00:18:24,170 --> 00:18:31,980 But I hadn't I'd sort of mucked around with it but I hadn't really learnt. But my neighbour, two doors down is a ukulele teacher, so we could have outside lessons. 182 00:18:31,980 --> 00:18:36,930 And it all seemed perfect. And kind of that's been quite a different its creative still 183 00:18:36,930 --> 00:18:42,300 But there's been quite different thing for me because it doesn't have the end product and goal in quite the same way. 184 00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:50,250 So but, you know, I find that once I get practising and playing stuff and kind of singing along to my kind of favourite songs, 185 00:18:50,250 --> 00:18:54,780 which tend to be either kind of 90s pop or the Beatles, 186 00:18:54,780 --> 00:19:04,860 I don't really have a very diverse taste in music then you know that I find that so soothing and so relaxing. 187 00:19:04,860 --> 00:19:09,990 And that's been quite a different thing for me because, like, it it's not that kind of goal oriented. 188 00:19:09,990 --> 00:19:15,870 And also it's something it's something you can do badly. My version of you have to I have to accept that which I'm not very good at. 189 00:19:15,870 --> 00:19:20,970 As a perfectionist, I'm not very good at not immediately being very good at something. 190 00:19:20,970 --> 00:19:29,910 That's been a really tough lesson to learn. Weirdly, my version of that, my kind of slightly less constrained but still creative, 191 00:19:29,910 --> 00:19:34,050 blowing the boundaries between doing nothing and having a rigid set of instructions. 192 00:19:34,050 --> 00:19:40,870 Practise is also musical. It is making arrangements of entirely inappropriate songs for Brass Band. 193 00:19:40,870 --> 00:19:46,200 For Brass Band. Yes. Shout out to Exeter Railway Band look us up. 194 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:51,510 We have a website and a Twitter page as well. So I've been trying to arrange pop songs, 195 00:19:51,510 --> 00:20:02,100 venga boys Medley's songs from Frozen for Brass Band because I can't imagine anything better than frozen for brass band. 196 00:20:02,100 --> 00:20:11,040 No, it is a step into the unknown, though. You have got to be careful. Niches Frozen 2 joke. 197 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,570 And I think the harnessing of personality thing obviously is is central to this. 198 00:20:15,570 --> 00:20:23,790 But also I, like a lot of people, really struggled with this kind of thing when the pandemic started. 199 00:20:23,790 --> 00:20:30,960 So the pandemic started. And, you know, my concept of work life balance and and everything really went out the window. 200 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:42,660 And I had to manage my working day in a very different way because, you know, my working life and my home life are now very much integrated. 201 00:20:42,660 --> 00:20:48,460 And so I had to recalibrate a lot of that. And I actually found myself. You know, 202 00:20:48,460 --> 00:20:52,590 and in part due to kind of the fatigue that we all experienced as kind of part 203 00:20:52,590 --> 00:20:56,490 of lockdowns and everything pointing it were difficult to do these things. 204 00:20:56,490 --> 00:21:00,840 So actually, I, I tried to make them into a habit. 205 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:05,760 So I have I this is I mean, this is a revelation into my personality. 206 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:17,370 I have reminders on my phone of like chores and tasks I need to do every day. And I added things like read a chapter of a book or, you know, 207 00:21:17,370 --> 00:21:27,570 sew one seam or one step in a garment to just try and push myself to do those things. 208 00:21:27,570 --> 00:21:34,350 And some days, you know, all that I could cope with mentally and physically was to read that one chapter and to say that one seam 209 00:21:34,350 --> 00:21:41,720 But of course, more often than not, you start. And it spirals and. 210 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:48,410 I found that really helpful as a way to kind of I don't do anymore to have these reminders because I've got back into it, 211 00:21:48,410 --> 00:21:53,270 but it's it was a real kind of way to kick start me back into. 212 00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:56,900 And again, it's harnessing my personality, isn't it? I mean, 213 00:21:56,900 --> 00:22:00,230 I like to tick things off. I don't like having red dots on my phone. 214 00:22:00,230 --> 00:22:08,270 So having it in that way and utilising this kind of lists and reminders was a way to get me back into doing it. 215 00:22:08,270 --> 00:22:13,700 Yeah, kind of like like coaching a football team made of herbs. 216 00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:18,770 A lot of it comes down to time management. Oh, that's terrible. Thank you very much. 217 00:22:18,770 --> 00:22:28,760 But if I were in that situation, I would also put things like do an airfix model or go for a bike ride on my list. 218 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,620 I certainly do put them into my diary, my planner 219 00:22:32,620 --> 00:22:38,390 Yeah, because that's an important part of making sure that those are treated as part of your. 220 00:22:38,390 --> 00:22:44,430 Day to day life and thereby ingraining that sort of time off. 221 00:22:44,430 --> 00:22:49,490 That is might be better described as time doing other stuff here into your routine. 222 00:22:49,490 --> 00:22:57,190 Mm hmm. Absolutely. And. It's so I guess to. 223 00:22:57,190 --> 00:23:04,210 To end on, we've talked about kind of how we force ourselves to take breaks and the hobbies and the interest 224 00:23:04,210 --> 00:23:09,700 that we have and about the importance of harnessing your personality to make it work to you. 225 00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:14,320 So I guess if somebody is out there and they're thinking, okay, but I don't know, you know, 226 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:20,980 how do I find the Harry Potter Lego sets are my thing or sewing or arranging bengaboys for brass band? 227 00:23:20,980 --> 00:23:28,750 How how how have you gone on that journey to kind of find those those things that work for you? 228 00:23:28,750 --> 00:23:30,100 That's a difficult one to answer, 229 00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:39,650 particularly given that as time as recording opportunities for discovering these kinds of things are a little bit more limited. 230 00:23:39,650 --> 00:23:46,750 Yes, they were. So, I mean, I wouldn't have discovered my interest in arranging for brass band had I not been in a brass band already. 231 00:23:46,750 --> 00:23:53,380 I wouldn't have discovered my interest in scale modelling had I not been able to one day be walking through a garden centre, 232 00:23:53,380 --> 00:23:57,880 see some airfix and think, oh, I might have a go at this. 233 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:05,170 But my general advice is, as banal as it might be, would be to explore it. 234 00:24:05,170 --> 00:24:11,920 Look at what I think about what kinds of things you like to do rather than emerging in terms of. 235 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,750 Oh. I wouldn't like to do this or I would like to do this. 236 00:24:15,750 --> 00:24:20,850 Think about what you value in an activity and take it from there. 237 00:24:20,850 --> 00:24:26,610 Yeah, and I think for me, actually, this is an interesting point of reflection, 238 00:24:26,610 --> 00:24:38,550 which is that the things that I come back to are the things that I was interested in as a child and as a teenager that really dropped off when, 239 00:24:38,550 --> 00:24:40,680 you know, if you're. 240 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:47,850 If you're a you know, a dancer or an actor or a performer, you know, I did all of those things, you kind of end up dedicating all of your time to it. 241 00:24:47,850 --> 00:24:51,090 And and then I became an academic and I dedicated all of my time to that. 242 00:24:51,090 --> 00:24:54,850 And so I went back to those things that I really loved as a child. 243 00:24:54,850 --> 00:24:58,870 And one of those was building Lego. One of those was crafting. It wasn't sewinf 244 00:24:58,870 --> 00:25:03,850 It was actually doing cross stitch. I was like an 80 year old lady, an eight year old body. 245 00:25:03,850 --> 00:25:07,290 But reading. And, you know, all of those things. 246 00:25:07,290 --> 00:25:13,890 They were actually things that I really loved when I was younger. And I've I've rediscovered them as an adult. 247 00:25:13,890 --> 00:25:20,160 Which brings me an awful lot of joy. It helps me maintain a work life balance. 248 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:30,870 And it maintains my status as to quote my my nephew, the coolest aunt in the world, because everybody, 249 00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:37,740 every 11 year old boy wants an aunt with an extensive Harry Potter Lego collection. 250 00:25:37,740 --> 00:25:44,880 I think the activiriwa that you you might enjoy now and activities you enjoyed when you were younger might take on different forms. 251 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:50,190 It's worth noting, you know, that if you enjoyed playing with Lego as a child, 252 00:25:50,190 --> 00:25:54,540 you might not enjoy playing with Lego as an adult although you probably would. 253 00:25:54,540 --> 00:26:00,540 It might be that that sort of construction idea and that the idea of building things and following instructions. 254 00:26:00,540 --> 00:26:05,790 Yeah. Might be the thing to look for rather than necessarily sticking rigidly to Lego. 255 00:26:05,790 --> 00:26:10,980 But yes, I think it's exploring and thinking about those interests that you've had only said the things that 256 00:26:10,980 --> 00:26:16,200 you value and the things that you've always enjoyed and trying to kind of follow follow that path. 257 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:22,220 Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Thanks so much to Edward for joining me for this week's episode. 258 00:26:22,220 --> 00:26:29,850 And yeah, go out and find those things that interest you and excite you. 259 00:26:29,850 --> 00:26:31,290 And please, please, please. 260 00:26:31,290 --> 00:26:40,600 If you get the opportunity, do try and build Lego as an adult, you will be really surprised at how much you still enjoy it. 261 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:45,720 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me. 262 00:26:45,720 --> 00:27:12,332 Next time. We'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

In this episode I talk to Lizzie Hubson about her experience of doing non-traditional research, using creative research methods to undertake research in Cultural Geography. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,230 --> 00:00:13,640 Hello and welcome to R, D and The Inbetweens. 2 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:32,180 I'm your host, Kelly Prwwxw, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,180 --> 00:00:37,190 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens. It's Kelly Preece here 4 00:00:37,190 --> 00:00:44,900 And today, I'm delighted to be bringing you an episode about non traditional research or approaching research, 5 00:00:44,900 --> 00:00:50,090 and research methodologies in non-traditional ways, the benefits, the challenges. 6 00:00:50,090 --> 00:00:54,260 So I'm delighted to welcome Lizzie Hobson who is the PGR in geography. 7 00:00:54,260 --> 00:00:58,220 Lizzie, are you happy to introduce yourself? I'm 8 00:00:58,220 --> 00:01:06,530 Lizzie Hobson from the Geography Department here at Exeter I'm a PhD student in the final kind of throes and stages. 9 00:01:06,530 --> 00:01:11,330 So I'm spending most of my time writing up. 10 00:01:11,330 --> 00:01:21,200 So I guess now I would call myself a cultural geographer. That means I'm mostly interested in the development of landscape theory and geography and 11 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:28,410 perhaps more broadly about geography of writing kind of effectivity and performance. 12 00:01:28,410 --> 00:01:38,620 Brilliant. Thank you. So the what we gonna talk about today is, quote unquote, doing non-traditional research. 13 00:01:38,620 --> 00:01:40,470 So so kind of unpack back a little. 14 00:01:40,470 --> 00:01:50,550 Can you talk about how how your research breaks the kind of traditional mode of what we expect research to look like a doctoral level? 15 00:01:50,550 --> 00:01:57,200 So a lot of my work is very methods based rather than 16 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:04,350 And so I kind of engage with theory in a more of a framing statement kind of way and think about how we can 17 00:02:04,350 --> 00:02:11,010 think about ideas kind of differently when we experiment with styles of writing and modes of presentation. 18 00:02:11,010 --> 00:02:14,820 I guess maybe in the simplest sense 19 00:02:14,820 --> 00:02:21,600 my project is about therapeutic landscapes and encounters to think about the therapeutic as kind 20 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:29,910 of residing more in the encounters between bodies and landscapes and in body practises. 21 00:02:29,910 --> 00:02:36,110 The problem with some of this research is that it puts forward this kind of. 22 00:02:36,110 --> 00:02:44,130 And this is me speaking in a in a general sense, an argument that's led to what we can call the medicalisation of landscape amd nature. 23 00:02:44,130 --> 00:02:50,520 I try and open up what we might judge, as having kind of restorative or recuperative qualities. 24 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:57,330 And what recovery might mean. And I'm particularly interested in how creative practises might open up some 25 00:02:57,330 --> 00:03:03,240 of these spaces and address some of these questions in more open ended ways, 26 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:09,060 I guess its pretty, quite useful to go through an example of my work. 27 00:03:09,060 --> 00:03:14,680 So a part of my project is kind of laid out into three. And I got. 28 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:22,460 A really good opportunity to go to Ithica, which is a small island and part of Greece, 29 00:03:22,460 --> 00:03:31,120 is not a traditional health pilgrimage site in the way Lourdes might be, but it is kind of a health landscape of sorts. 30 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:38,200 But it kind of ties with these ideas of the therapeutic come from kind of its Greek mythology. 31 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:45,490 So I didn't do Latin or Greek in school. So I was kind of really unfamiliar with these ideas before I got to Ithica 32 00:03:45,490 --> 00:03:55,480 But Ithica is supposedly the home of Odysseus, who is kind of thought to have spent this 10 years mega journey battling sea monsters and 33 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,660 going through all kinds of mental torment just to kind of return to his beloved homeland, 34 00:03:59,660 --> 00:04:09,370 Ithica. And then because of this and with the help of the poet C.P. Caffery, who wrote this famous poem, Ithica, and for many, 35 00:04:09,370 --> 00:04:18,280 Ithica has come to symbolise this kind of legendary journey that every person makes through life as they look for their own kind of personal Ithica. 36 00:04:18,280 --> 00:04:22,480 And it's become this metaphor for a kind of supreme goal 37 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:29,710 this kind of sweet homeland where you'll find a kind of internal calmness and satisfaction. 38 00:04:29,710 --> 00:04:37,730 When I was in Ithica, I was lucky enough to spend some time with an archaeologist who took me to Homer's Palace 39 00:04:37,730 --> 00:04:45,850 no Homer's School, which is also thought to be the ruins of Odysseus' palace. 40 00:04:45,850 --> 00:04:49,770 And the thing is, when you go there, you expect this kind of super 41 00:04:49,770 --> 00:04:57,850 grand place like ticketed off kind of all official like English heritage or national trust, what you see with them. 42 00:04:57,850 --> 00:05:01,600 When I got those kind of none of that. And that's really super glad 43 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:06,190 to have my guide because I wouldn't have known what I was looking at. 44 00:05:06,190 --> 00:05:11,130 There's basically one kind of placket saying you enter the site at your own risk 45 00:05:11,130 --> 00:05:15,850 as it isn't stable and then nothing telling you what you were looking at. 46 00:05:15,850 --> 00:05:24,250 So I kind of started thinking about these kind of grand myths and legends and standing amongst this place that was kind of. 47 00:05:24,250 --> 00:05:30,460 Full of rubble. And I started experimenting with knitting as a practise, 48 00:05:30,460 --> 00:05:39,060 and I didn't if you know those kind of old school geography diagrams where you get those different layers like sediment. 49 00:05:39,060 --> 00:05:43,090 And then you've got the granite layer that's a bit harder on sits on top and lasts a bit longer. 50 00:05:43,090 --> 00:05:49,440 And I think it's probably actually the other way around. But I was thinking about knitting a bit like that. 51 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:57,010 So knitting is kind of a way to bring the landscapes, kind of absences and presences in gaps into life. 52 00:05:57,010 --> 00:06:02,140 So when I was there, I was kind of interested in the materiality of the place. 53 00:06:02,140 --> 00:06:06,650 That was kind of caught up in this very real process of erosion. 54 00:06:06,650 --> 00:06:11,290 And lack of funds have kind of stopped any kind of like 55 00:06:11,290 --> 00:06:20,110 Oh, gosh, archaeological work. And nothing was kind of roped off in the way Stonehenge was. 56 00:06:20,110 --> 00:06:27,670 When I was talking to my friend, my participant, before I went out on this this trip with the archaeologist, 57 00:06:27,670 --> 00:06:31,480 her partner actually knew the site I mentioned because he was there. 58 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:32,620 Oh, yeah, I've been there. 59 00:06:32,620 --> 00:06:41,500 I do rock climbing and kind of parkour there as a substitute because there's no gyms, you know, outside it's site for outdoor exercise for him, 60 00:06:41,500 --> 00:06:49,870 which are kind of real madness when you think about heritage site regulations kind of here in the UK. 61 00:06:49,870 --> 00:06:54,610 And yeah, I also got to spend a lot time looking at Ithica's museum collections, 62 00:06:54,610 --> 00:07:02,620 some of the artefacts are kind of rumoured to be linked to as evidence that this was Odysseus' home place. 63 00:07:02,620 --> 00:07:13,630 So, yeah, we looked at these fragments of kind of urns and tripods and it meant to be gifts to Odysseus and kind of spoke to this magical place. 64 00:07:13,630 --> 00:07:24,640 But they also kind of opened up the space to talk about anticipating loss and curated decay and kind of heritage, those potentially beyond saving. 65 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:30,900 So when you kind of through the process of knitting and forming and reforming the landscape, 66 00:07:30,900 --> 00:07:35,890 it kind of became for me not just about this this magical tale 67 00:07:35,890 --> 00:07:44,980 but about visible mending, decision making and uncertain times and ideas about unbuilding in the process of preservation. 68 00:07:44,980 --> 00:07:48,810 So I started thinking about Ithica, this place of mining memories. 69 00:07:48,810 --> 00:07:53,500 So that's kind of just one example of my practise. 70 00:07:53,500 --> 00:07:58,900 I've done different things and in different places. 71 00:07:58,900 --> 00:08:03,840 That's completely and utterly fascinating. 72 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:12,620 So, okay, so you've talked about the ways in which your kind of research methods are not traditional. 73 00:08:12,620 --> 00:08:20,960 How how does these practises or things like knitting and the way that if I'm understanding correctly, 74 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:30,020 that knitting is kind of a practise of recreate and exposing those kind of different layers within these sites? 75 00:08:30,020 --> 00:08:34,980 How how does that form for part of a of a doctoral thesis? 76 00:08:34,980 --> 00:08:44,360 You know, as we said before we started recording, I'm I'm very as an art, as a kind of ex artist and lecturer in the arts. 77 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,040 I am very familiar with this kind of practise. 78 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:51,770 But thinking about the kind of people out there that are doing very traditional research that don't have a clue about 79 00:08:51,770 --> 00:08:58,040 how kind of these sorts of practises can be incorporated for a research project or be kind of an outcome of research. 80 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:06,770 How does that work? Like I'm sure quite a lot of different disciplines do is that I keep kind of a field. 81 00:09:06,770 --> 00:09:15,170 note journal. And instead of just classically kind of doing interviews or something like that, I kind of. 82 00:09:15,170 --> 00:09:19,830 And then I do a bit of that as well. But, you know, and keep a diary. 83 00:09:19,830 --> 00:09:24,400 But I also do like lots of sketches and things out in the landscape and things like that. 84 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:34,250 So when like and like anyone else, I then write it up when I when I get back and I'm making a lot more kind of it out. 85 00:09:34,250 --> 00:09:38,080 I'm kind of. Impressive. So it goes alongside a text 86 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:44,080 So in the case of the kittting, I kind of I write 87 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:49,000 Conceptually thing about ruins and kind of ruination in an essay format. 88 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:55,610 And then I also present my my knitting alongside that. 89 00:09:55,610 --> 00:10:01,990 In that kind of works in photograph form. 90 00:10:01,990 --> 00:10:08,170 I was really interested to hear you describe it as an artist sketchbook. Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things, isn't it? 91 00:10:08,170 --> 00:10:09,970 Does this do a disservice? 92 00:10:09,970 --> 00:10:16,090 That's when one of the thingsmy supervisors said when I think, no, you know, it's probably the best way of encapsulating it. 93 00:10:16,090 --> 00:10:21,780 It's almost more like a magazine than a traditional...more like a magazine. 94 00:10:21,780 --> 00:10:28,640 Again, this is probably the wrong terminology, but. Yeah, so I have. 95 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:37,580 I have to. I have a lot of I link back to the academic literature, but for me, I'm not practise based. 96 00:10:37,580 --> 00:10:45,170 I haven't gone by performance. And it kind of opens up another huge kind of can of worms around. 97 00:10:45,170 --> 00:10:49,940 what creative methods are who uses them? That thing for me. 98 00:10:49,940 --> 00:10:56,240 It's a way of. Kind of. Using creative methods is a process as a way of kind of slowing down what we think 99 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:02,110 we know when I'm sitting with kind of uncomfortable moments at the discipline. 100 00:11:02,110 --> 00:11:06,950 And I guess if you were going more by performance, you obviously have your your final end piece. 101 00:11:06,950 --> 00:11:14,490 And that looks very different to what I'm kind of talking about at a non-traditional thesis. 102 00:11:14,490 --> 00:11:22,600 Yeah, absolutely. And like what you're talking about and how you're talking about it, really. 103 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:30,230 The kind of methodology that your approach you're approaching in that artist's sketchbook really it sounds, you know, 104 00:11:30,230 --> 00:11:36,640 to make a parallel for people who aren't familiar with this kind of thing, it really sounds like kind of how you document ethnographic fieldwork. 105 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:48,400 Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's it's very similar in its approach, but it's taking more creative forms of documentation and. 106 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:53,590 Thinking about data in a much, much broader. 107 00:11:53,590 --> 00:11:58,140 And way as kind of being beyond. 108 00:11:58,140 --> 00:12:06,410 And, you know, words, numbers, which a lot of our kind of data and research tends to be either numerical or linguistic. 109 00:12:06,410 --> 00:12:13,900 But also thinking about. Practises of knowledge and understanding that go beyond the numerical and the linguistic. 110 00:12:13,900 --> 00:12:23,270 So, you know, I'm thinking as a as a  person with an arts background. You know, we talk to a lot about experiential learning. 111 00:12:23,270 --> 00:12:37,010 And wht we would call embodied knowing say things that you might know through experience or intuition that you can't necessarily put into language. 112 00:12:37,010 --> 00:12:50,060 So it sounds to me like you're incorporating all of those different forms of knowledge and learning into kind of one really rich set of data. 113 00:12:50,060 --> 00:12:57,120 Yeah. It's all about non-representational theory and. 114 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:04,690 And yeah embodied and bodied ways and bodily ways of knowing. And I think that that's that's one of the challenges, right, 115 00:13:04,690 --> 00:13:17,790 of doing this kind of research in an academic environment that even though it's actually not new to approach research in this kind of way, it's still. 116 00:13:17,790 --> 00:13:20,490 I don't want to always say looked down on, because that isn't always the case, 117 00:13:20,490 --> 00:13:27,720 but it's it's not valued in the same way sort of across the sector or across all disciplines 118 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:33,840 in higher education that more traditional research methods and forms of knowledge are. 119 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:41,520 And that's really one of the key. I would imagine one of the key challenges of doing research in this way is kind of having to. 120 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:46,650 To justify it to the to the wider academy is that something that you experience? 121 00:13:46,650 --> 00:13:51,420 I think I'm. I'm really lucky because I work in a little pocket. 122 00:13:51,420 --> 00:13:57,410 And so I've got a lot of kind of like minded people, which again, I guess is why in. 123 00:13:57,410 --> 00:14:03,790 Sometimes it's hard to stay outside and kind of go, oh, yeah, is just like ethnography, you know. 124 00:14:03,790 --> 00:14:09,580 But yeah, there's this challenge of kind of publication and how to judge creative work. 125 00:14:09,580 --> 00:14:18,230 So, yeah, despite the fact that in my own discipline, there's this widespread support for kind of this creative turn within geography, 126 00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:24,230 in this kind of acceptance or even understanding of alternative outputs 127 00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:30,380 It's very varied even I guess by no means universal. Yeah, exactly. 128 00:14:30,380 --> 00:14:38,060 And I know I find kind of sometimes the articulation of trying to use traditional language like, 129 00:14:38,060 --> 00:14:44,070 you know, talking about all of the different things in your sketchbookas just different forms of data. 130 00:14:44,070 --> 00:14:50,920 That's, you know, it still has that. You know, you talked about writing the kind of theoretical and unpacking that is alongside it. 131 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:57,990 It still has that theoretical basis, still has that analysis. All of those things that other people are using to create knowledge. 132 00:14:57,990 --> 00:15:06,470 Yeah. So whether you're in politics or whether you're in engineering, you know, you're you're still doing collecting data and interpreting it and analysing it. 133 00:15:06,470 --> 00:15:11,360 And you are very much doing that. You're just doing that in a different way. 134 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:17,170 Yeah. And I think this is this. I really wish that I could come and be able to show you my work. 135 00:15:17,170 --> 00:15:20,890 You know, because, yeah, my work is practise based. 136 00:15:20,890 --> 00:15:24,200 You know, I know. I speak about it. I do it. 137 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:29,720 You know, and so it kind of comes up against these traditional forms a bit in a podcast but 138 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:36,350 a lot about the journal format, more, you know how well these places are kind of geared up for creative output. 139 00:15:36,350 --> 00:15:44,840 So I guess one of the issues I come up against in my thesis and which is going to for a whole nother kind of spanner in the works here. 140 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:50,090 But yes, so I do a part on Ithica and I also do your part on aerial silks and circus skills. 141 00:15:50,090 --> 00:15:56,660 And so I'm interested in visual and movement, bodily movements in landscape. 142 00:15:56,660 --> 00:16:04,790 So I really my ideal situation would be being able to include these videos of performances 143 00:16:04,790 --> 00:16:12,140 of aerial silks by myself or my participants and demonstrating certain kind of silw routines, 144 00:16:12,140 --> 00:16:19,670 experiences with gravity in the air. But the traditional kind of word document doesn't really have this capacity. 145 00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:28,160 So at the moment, I'm kind of working with including a load of load of visual like screenshots not screenshots 146 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,660 stills from these videos and kind of laid out like that old school kind of camera. 147 00:16:32,660 --> 00:16:38,860 reel, but. Ideally, I would be able to actually include video or someone read a paper. 148 00:16:38,860 --> 00:16:44,260 They'd be able to see the video instead of having to do the follow this link. No disruption. 149 00:16:44,260 --> 00:16:49,070 So you have to. Is imperfect and it's an imperfect option. 150 00:16:49,070 --> 00:16:53,640 So we talked about the challenges. Let's. Flip it on its head. 151 00:16:53,640 --> 00:17:00,270 What are the benefits of approaching a this way? What are the what are the benefits to the research? 152 00:17:00,270 --> 00:17:01,890 You know, on a kind of theoretical basis. 153 00:17:01,890 --> 00:17:09,570 But what are for you as a researcher what are the benefits and the development opportunities and the joys of doing research in this way? 154 00:17:09,570 --> 00:17:18,140 I guess for me. And I guess this is quite a personal thing, is that it's about doing something that you love. 155 00:17:18,140 --> 00:17:21,500 That's sounds like cheesey. So I like super cheesy. 156 00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:29,030 And I'm going to get even more cheesy because maybe it's because I'm getting to the end of my PhD 157 00:17:29,030 --> 00:17:37,250 My partner's just finish and he's looking for jobs. And sometimes, yeah, my PhD is a gift. 158 00:17:37,250 --> 00:17:43,550 Right. I get to spend four years of my life doing something that I enjoy and I want to do. 159 00:17:43,550 --> 00:17:47,870 And I'm very lucky that I got to write my own PhD and that I'm funded. 160 00:17:47,870 --> 00:17:54,100 So I'm aware that I speak from a privileged position here. 161 00:17:54,100 --> 00:18:02,170 But, yeah, I don't think despite all of the stresses that we've kind of talked about, that I could have done my PhD any other way. 162 00:18:02,170 --> 00:18:09,520 I kind of felt happy and true to myself and I was really doing something worthwhile. 163 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:15,200 So, yeah, I did. I'm very aware that sounds very idealistic. 164 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:20,240 I kind of spent the first. So I've done creative methods all the way through my undergrad. 165 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:25,370 Then in my Masters. I'm very lucky that I kind of fell on my feet and like there's a real hub for it in geography 166 00:18:25,370 --> 00:18:33,680 And when I started, I was kind of. I never really thought I was ever gonna kind of go into further education, 167 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:38,150 and I was really lucky to have some very good mentors kind of help push me that way. 168 00:18:38,150 --> 00:18:43,010 But when I I thought, I don't know. I don't know what a thesis looks like. 169 00:18:43,010 --> 00:18:48,470 So I spent probably a bit over a year trying to write a traditional PhD 170 00:18:48,470 --> 00:18:54,890 I kind of resorted back to these traditional methodologies like interviews and things like that. 171 00:18:54,890 --> 00:18:57,740 And I really hated it. 172 00:18:57,740 --> 00:19:05,880 And I honestly think if I hadn't kind of started trusting myself again, I wouldn't have finished and I certainly would have been happy with it. 173 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:14,850 So. Yeah, I think. But I think it was just a necessity. 174 00:19:14,850 --> 00:19:20,520 So people tend to be really reticent to talk about their research in that kind of enthusiastic, 175 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:27,370 passionate and idealistic way, which is kind of bizarre on a number of levels because. 176 00:19:27,370 --> 00:19:37,390 You are not going to dedicate however many years of your life you take to do your research degree to a project. 177 00:19:37,390 --> 00:19:45,900 If you're not incredibly passionate about it. And incredibly invested in it because you couldn't do it, you know, so. 178 00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:50,470 And also what we respond when people talk about their research. 179 00:19:50,470 --> 00:19:57,310 Is their enthusiasm and their excitement. You know, that's that's the thing we respond to as human beings. 180 00:19:57,310 --> 00:19:59,230 Obviously, we respond to the content. 181 00:19:59,230 --> 00:20:06,270 But if someone you know, if someone's talking to you about their research and they sound really bored, you don't pay attention. 182 00:20:06,270 --> 00:20:15,130 And and it's really lovely to hear you talk about your research in that kind of enthusiastic and passionate way, 183 00:20:15,130 --> 00:20:21,500 because doing a research degree is hard. Like. I'm not trying to sugarcoat it, 184 00:20:21,500 --> 00:20:29,130 but there are some things about it that are wonderful and positive and that kind of enthusiasm and passion is one of them. 185 00:20:29,130 --> 00:20:34,700 So what I like to do is to wrap up is ask people to offer some advice based on their experience. 186 00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:39,010 So basically, you know, if people are. 187 00:20:39,010 --> 00:20:47,870 You know, looking at doing or have just started doing a research degree that involves these kind of creative methods. 188 00:20:47,870 --> 00:20:54,200 What advice would you give them based on your experience? What did you wish you knew when you started? 189 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:59,890 Yes, I guess from my kind of experience, I would say. 190 00:20:59,890 --> 00:21:03,100 That you probably have to compromise. 191 00:21:03,100 --> 00:21:10,480 Compromise is probably the wrong word here, because if you're gonna do something so bold, then you need conviction. 192 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:18,960 But. I guess what I mean by compromise is that if you're going to experiment with styles and kind of modes of presentation, 193 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:25,870 then you kind of have an obligation to your reader to help them. Get where you're going. 194 00:21:25,870 --> 00:21:31,090 So for me, I have a framing statement that does a bit of this kind of donkey work. 195 00:21:31,090 --> 00:21:34,840 It kind of acts a bit like what I was kind of saying in the beginning. 196 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:43,160 Like, I kind of started talking about my method. If I hadn't stopped, it's situating them somewhere within the therapeutic landscapes literature. 197 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:48,380 So. I love creative writing. 198 00:21:48,380 --> 00:21:53,990 I do. That's my kind of niche, which I kind of. 199 00:21:53,990 --> 00:21:57,710 I go from there. I will start with creative writing. 200 00:21:57,710 --> 00:22:06,250 But for me, I had to kind of come to terms with the fact that there's gonna be some bits of my thesis that are not so beautifully written. 201 00:22:06,250 --> 00:22:12,860 Because there are times when I'm gonna need to hold my reader's hand and I need to put interludes between between the pieces because, 202 00:22:12,860 --> 00:22:17,300 you know, we jump from Ithica and then we go to the circus skills. 203 00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:23,720 Right. So, yeah, compromise in a sense. 204 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:30,650 And I guess I'd also say that there's a need to take real care, I guess first picking up supervisors, 205 00:22:30,650 --> 00:22:39,500 but then also picking examiners to kind of see where you're coming from and see the value in your in your work. 206 00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:44,360 I've had some encounters where peoplehave just thought they're nice pretty pictures. 207 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:48,470 But what are they doing? Ouch. My heart, you know. 208 00:22:48,470 --> 00:22:56,340 I've had others that I've really got what I'm trying to do and had really critical and productive conversation. 209 00:22:56,340 --> 00:22:59,360 So quite important. 210 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:08,660 Thanks so much to Lizzie for taking the time to talk to me about what is an incredibly fascinating project and about the real challenges, 211 00:23:08,660 --> 00:23:15,180 but also the real benefits of doing, quote unquote, non-traditional research. 212 00:23:15,180 --> 00:23:21,440 If there's something about your project that you're approaching non traditionally. I'd love to hear from you and to talk to you on the podcast. 213 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,280 I think it's really important that we share these stories and represent these 214 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:32,550 alternative ways of doing that increasingly aren't that alternative and becoming very mainstream. 215 00:23:32,550 --> 00:23:38,750 But it can be scary to be the first one in your department to take that leap. And that's it for this episode. 216 00:23:38,750 --> 00:23:41,840 Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me. 217 00:23:41,840 --> 00:24:08,448 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

In this episode I talk to Maria Dede about her experience changing supervisors, and the impact that had on her research and her supervisory relationships. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript 1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Hello and welcome, R, D And The Inbetweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,000 and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers, development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:37,000 Hello, everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens. 4 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,000 So in this episode, 5 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:49,000 I really wanted to provide a kind of the start of a counterbalance to the episode I did a few weeks ago about the supervisory relationship. 6 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:56,000 So I talked to Dr. Edward Mills and Dr. Tom Hinton about the supervisory relationship from both sides, 7 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:02,000 and they had incredibly positive experience as supervisor and supervisee. 8 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:13,000 And were able to offer lots of kind of examples of best practise and where a supervisory relationship can be really rich and fulfilling, 9 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,000 both professionally and interpersonally. Now, 10 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:22,000 I recognise that not all supervisory relationships are like that and that the 11 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:27,000 supervisory relationship can be fraught with problems for lots of different reasons. 12 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,000 So today I'm gonna be talking to Maria Dede 13 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:39,000 Maria is also a PhD student at the University of Exeter, and she has had to change supervisors a couple of times during her research degree. 14 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:44,000 And I'm going to talk to her a little bit about what that experience was like, 15 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:51,000 why these changes happened, how she dealt with them, and also how they affected her PhD journey. 16 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:55,000 So, Maria. Are you happy to introduce yourself? Yes. 17 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:01,000 My name's Maria. I'm in my final year and I might be PhD in philosophy. 18 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,000 And, you know, I have, um, I'm not funded. 19 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:20,000 So I have I have had to work throughout my PhD to pay tuition and to pay sort of like living expenses and hopefully will be graduating at the end of this term. 20 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:26,000 Brilliant. Thank you, Maria. So one of the main things that we wanted to talk about today, actually, 21 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:35,000 was the experience you've had during your PhD because you've had a number of different changes of supervisor, is that right? 22 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:42,000 Yes, technically, I am now on supervisor number four and five, although to be fair, 23 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:49,000 at least one of them was sort of like and was kind enough to just place their name, for bureaucratic reasons. 24 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,000 So, yes, maybe four or five isn't right. 25 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,000 Actually, what happened? But technically, that's another 26 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:02,000 I also had to change one supervisor because they agreed to supervise me and that was fine. 27 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:07,000 But they had to actually leave the university and because they got a different position after a month. 28 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,000 So it was just much more practical. 29 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:19,000 But I found another person. Yes, you can. Can you talk us through kind of each of those changes and I guess when they happened 30 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:26,000 and why they happened for also the the effect that had on you and your studies? 31 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:33,000 I. So the first year I was with my first set of supervisors and after a year, 32 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:39,000 it was their initiative that maybe we would be better off if I found someone else. 33 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:43,000 And to be fair, that was a very good idea. 34 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:51,000 And I'm very grateful that they went forward and suggested that because I wasn't sure that it would have occurred to me and I wasn't like in it. 35 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:56,000 And I really considered as an option because it's not something that I had sort of like had. 36 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,000 I knew that you can change, supervise, 37 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:05,000 but it wasn't some there was widely discussed and how to go about it and under what circumstances and things like that. 38 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:11,000 And so if it was up to me, I was considering just stopping my degree. 39 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:22,000 The main problems. That we had, and I think from what I can tell, at least retrospectively is. 40 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:29,000 Potentially our style of working and our expectations and how sort of and potentially 41 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:35,000 what what our role me as a student and my supervisor as my supervisor  would entail. 42 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:40,000 I think it was. Our approaches was just clashing a bit. 43 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:51,000 And I don't think I was a particularly good student for and for my supervisor just as much as my supervisor wasn't a good fit for me. 44 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:59,000 So you use your supervisor suggested that you that you make that shift. 45 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:08,000 So can you tell me a little bit about how you got what the process was like finding new supervisors, what role you might played in that? 46 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:17,000 To be fair I don't think I played much of a role in that some other people were suggested I met them and. 47 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:24,000 We really sort of. At this point, I was I was happy because it had been a year. 48 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,000 And I feel. I don't necessarily want someone I didn't. 49 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:33,000 I'm okay with having someone that isn't, you know, that specialised in exactly the same thing that I do. 50 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:38,000 That doesn't matter. I can deal with that. And it's more along the lines of I want some that I can work well with. 51 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:45,000 And so I met my supervisor and then we just instantly I felt so much comfortable and we hit it off. 52 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:50,000 I immediately thought I would. I was very happy for them to supervise me. And yeah, they were happy to do so. 53 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:56,000 So the arrangement was made, but I didn't actually have an active role in it. 54 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,000 Not particularly. Well. That's incredibly positive. 55 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:06,000 So, yeah. So that's the first change that supervisors one and two, to supervisors, three and four. 56 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,000 Is that right? Technically four and five. 57 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:15,000 Okay, so there was somebody else in in the interim then. 58 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:20,000 Yeah. That was that, that was a person that they agreed supervise me. 59 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,000 I met them, they were fine but then they just moved, then they got. Okay. 60 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:29,000 Okay. So there's lots of different things in there but kind of reasons which are you know, 61 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,000 there are all sorts of reasons why you might say supervisor had to do with kind of right. 62 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:39,000 You say chemistry, working style in interest or kind of specialism in the subject. 63 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:45,000 You know, you you mentioned you know, it does happen. People leave and people leave the university and that creates problems. 64 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:53,000 So, you know, this is a lot of change for you during your during a really, really important formative time. 65 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:57,000 So can you talk to me a little bit about it? 66 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,000 So what was the time period over all of these changes? 67 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:07,000 Like it did happen over the course of a year, two years, three years, and I think it all happened. 68 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:13,000 I think if I if I'm not mistaken, I think I've been with these supervisors for just 69 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:19,000 Right after my first. Yes, I think most changes ve happened over the scope of like. 70 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:32,000 A few months. After my first year, so practically that had the impact that that had, is that it obviously. 71 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:37,000 It really delayed my upgrade. So I didn't upgrade. 72 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:42,000 until my third year or something like that like really late, which went fine. 73 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:49,000 And it also obviously my upgrade got delayed 74 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:56,000 taking into account the changes of supervision, because you need you need some time just to adjust. 75 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:02,000 Work with new people and maybe taking your research in different directions and things like that. 76 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:11,000 And yet, practically speaking, it was. It it did have an impact because, again, it just. 77 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:19,000 It I think it just extended the amount of time in my PhD where I felt that I'm not exactly sure. 78 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:26,000 What what am I doing? So I just as a result of this. 79 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:32,000 I was just doing things like, I'm just gonna write this, I'm just gonna research this, and hopefully eventually it will all come together as it did. 80 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:41,000 But it just for long. The sentiment of uncertainty. In probably a bit too long. 81 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,000 And how how so you said, you know, you keep going. How how did that affect your motivation? 82 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:53,000 How did it affect your focus and your ability to actually do the do the research to do the work? 83 00:08:53,000 --> 00:09:01,000 I was lucky enough so with my current, supervisor they have been very happy to do like. 84 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,000 Let me pursue angles and ideas and things that I find interesting. 85 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:10,000 So a lot of that had to do with I liked my subject not all parts of it. 86 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,000 Some of them were really annoying. But for the most part, it was nice and I was interested. 87 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:17,000 And the other thing is that because. Exactly. 88 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:22,000 Because I'm self-funded and I I have to keep a variety of other jobs. 89 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:26,000 It's like my day to day life really, really has. 90 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:30,000 And it's like it's well organised between like day jobs and hight jobs and, things like that. 91 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:41,000 So I found that that really that structure really helped me sort of like stay focussed in the amount of time that I had to dedicate. 92 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:46,000 Like, if you know that you only have like five hours today because then you need to do to get to your other job. 93 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,000 You make these five. That was count. So I found that really helpful. 94 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:58,000 Yeah. And, you know, I think that's important to recognise as well. You're not just juggling. 95 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:05,000 The complexities of the research project, the complexities of the supervisory changes, but also. 96 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,000 You know, you. You're conducting your. 97 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:14,000 You're doing your PhD research in what gets referred to as a non-traditional way. 98 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,000 Well, I find problems with that because I don't think it is actually in my experience. 99 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:27,000 But, you know, you're working alongside your PhD And that's that's a lot to juggle. 100 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:36,000 Right, it. Yeah, it is. To be fair, I kind of like I love to both sort of like whine about it because I want to be fair. 101 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:41,000 Obviously would have loved not to be doing so much work. 102 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,000 And since I said, like since I stopped doing with the pandemic like two of my jobs 103 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:52,000 I have been so productive and I think I've written over written more in the last year than I have of the previous three. 104 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,000 But that being said, I also kind of enjoyed it because a PhD 105 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:03,000 Particularly when you're doing something so theoretical as I can be a like, very isolating. 106 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:09,000 Like, you don't have labs. You don't get to work with teams and or things like that and even people in your own office. 107 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:14,000 It's so specific that it's rather unlucky. There were actually no sort of. 108 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:21,000 Have the mental capacity. I just want to hear you talk about your own work. 109 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:26,000 So I quite enjoyed that change of pace. I think that it was. 110 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:35,000 I think that if I only had to focus on my PhD, I would find it harder, whereas having the variety between engaging with different activities, 111 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:40,000 different types of work, different groups of people has again, like it's time consuming and can be quite social 112 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:46,000 But it also has like it gives you some sort of like an like an intellectual stimulation. 113 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,000 It's quite nice. Yeah. 114 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:57,000 And so, you know, we talked a little bit about the changes and what happened, the kind of how how we manage that from a work basis. 115 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,000 And I wonder if you could say a little bit about. 116 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:08,000 I guess how that felt is the kind of broad way I'd phrase it, but I guess the impact on your well-being, I guess is what I'm trying to get out, 117 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:17,000 because, you know, we're we're in a period now where people are dealing with a huge amount of change. 118 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:21,000 On top of the normal change that happens within a research degree programme. 119 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:26,000 And so I wondered, you know, could you would you be willing to say something about. 120 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:32,000 About how that affected your well-being and how maybe how you coped with that? 121 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:37,000 Uh, yeah. So. I think. 122 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:42,000 Well, I think that the the biggest issue is that. 123 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:48,000 In relationin terms of the whole supervisor changes. 124 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,000 It just for a long time, 125 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:58,000 it made me feel that I should probably quit that clearly academia is not for me and that I would probably be better off doing something, 126 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:06,000 something else. And I think that's because. You just at least for me. 127 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:17,000 It never occurred to me that. Some that the problem might lie elsewhere, that I'd sort of like, that I couldn't. 128 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:21,000 It never occurred to me they just might be that, yeah, I just can't work well with this particular person. 129 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:26,000 No one's fault. It's just it is what it is. I just automatically assume that it's my fault I'm doing something bad. 130 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:30,000 Like, clearly. I know. Like I didn't belong here. 131 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:35,000 So that does take a toll. Firstly, because. 132 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:40,000 Again, it sort of it leaves you it really tests your commitment. 133 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:46,000 Usually you get these days like, oh my God, I am in my. 134 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,000 I don't have a job. I don't have a salary. I'm working like three part time. 135 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:57,000 We had we had side jobs to do something that I might not be a good fit for. 136 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:01,000 And it that does take take it still like, you know what? 137 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,000 What if I disappoint my parents? What about my family? Like, who looked up to me. 138 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:14,000 What what what does it say about me and things like that. And to be fair but looking at now four years later, all of it, it was just. 139 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:20,000 Again, like retrospectively, just so simple, it was so simple, what once so I have once I. 140 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:27,000 Work with different people. Most of these problems just went away. 141 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:33,000 I mean, not all of them. I think my my relationship with my first supervisors really has impacted my relationship with 142 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:40,000 my current supervisor as well, even though I think we are, a much better fit. 143 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:49,000 I still, for instance, feel very. And I still I think I'm kind of scared of asking my supervisor for things or 144 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:56,000 approaching them with something that might not strictly be related to my project. 145 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:03,000 But, you know, it might reflect like a broader sort of an academic issue. 146 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:09,000 I think I just can't get a. Oh, look, I get nervous when I hand them in things. 147 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,000 I was a little part of me that thinks that. 148 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:18,000 Anything I give them or suggest to them that would just sort of like look at it and go yeah that's ridiculous and just laugh at me, 149 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:23,000 which I'm pretty sure, like, I know that that's not what's going to happen. Just be hard to move away from that. 150 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:30,000 Yeah. And I think there's there's a there's two. Really significant things I want to pick up on there that you that you raised. 151 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:37,000 One of them is the impact this kind of I'm gonna call them organisational changes. 152 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:42,000 I know that they're more than that, but there's kind of more organisational and administrative things of changing supervisor. 153 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:54,000 Actually, the impact that that can have on your confidence and your faith in your ability to do this project is really significant. 154 00:15:54,000 --> 00:16:02,000 And, you know, impostor syndrome is rife through academia and the postgraduate research community anyway, without kind of, 155 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:09,000 you know, when we have these exacerbating issues, actually, they just feed into those feelings are already there. 156 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:15,000 And it's really interesting to hear you say that, you know, you were thinking about about quitting. 157 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:23,000 So I guess my question is, why didn't you. What made you stay? 158 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:33,000 Well, that's a good question. I'm. One of that is because the change happen when it happened, like. 159 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,000 And that's why we'll always be really grateful for my first supervisor, even though I didn't work out well with us. 160 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:48,000 And I'm very happy that they suggested the change when they did, because I probably would have ended up quitting if we had gone any further with this. 161 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:57,000 And the other one was that because we because my parents helped me with my tuition fees, I just felt so guilty that, oh, my God, like, 162 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,000 these people have paid so much money for me and I'm just gonna disappoint them like 163 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,000 that because I'm too spoilt and or I don't lknow or whatever nonsense I was thinking. 164 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,000 And even though I know that that's not the case, I know that my parents love me unconditionally 165 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:16,000 It's just like you feel like you're letting people down, even though, you know, again, you know, it's not the case. 166 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:21,000 It's just a reaction that you can't really control because it's not just I think that's another thing. 167 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:25,000 Like it's not just you that's invested. 168 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:33,000 If necessary, in this research degree, you are supervisors in your departments, the university, you know, the whole kind of institution. 169 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:39,000 Even though I know it doesn't feel like it sometimes. But everyone is highly invested in you doing this. 170 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:44,000 And, you know, your partners and your family and your friends, everybody's providing that support for you. 171 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:52,000 And if you're getting, you know, like financial support as well. Additional pressure. 172 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:57,000 Oh, yeah, exactly. And also it's like Why am I failing at this? 173 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,000 What's wrong with me? What am I doing wrong again? 174 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:06,000 Even though I know. I know. Well, that that's that's not an accurate way of describing it. 175 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,000 It's just like this little voice in your head that you cannot get up. 176 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,000 I mean, it's so common. 177 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:19,000 And it's you know, and I'm really pleased that you shared that because it is so common for people to feel like if something goes wrong. 178 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:30,000 Either your failure or there's someone to blame. And don't get me wrong, there are situations in life where people are to blame, but so often. 179 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:35,000 Problems arise not because somebody is, you know, purposefully doing something to cause harm, 180 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:40,000 but, you know, there's been a lack of communication, a lack of clarity. 181 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,000 And so, you know, no one necessarily is to blame for the situation, you know, that's not missed. 182 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,000 Like you said, I was really pleased to hear you say, you know, 183 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:53,000 there was no one in your situation to blame in the in your first supervisory relationship for it not working. 184 00:18:53,000 --> 00:19:03,000 It just didn't work. And we all know that like that happens to us all in life in various ways, 185 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:11,000 which is which is so weird because it it almost feels like what no one told me about this. 186 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:19,000 Isn't that something that was common knowledge? Like. Yeah, cool. Like, it's definitely not unusual to not perfectly get along with your boss. 187 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,000 Why is that not a thing that people just discuss? Much more common. 188 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:27,000 Why in particular? Because sometimes you just don't know what you need. 189 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,000 And I think that was my problem. I didn't know what I needed. Like what? 190 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:40,000 What is it that's going wrong for me? Is the research is the structure is it's like and like the way that I'm being managed with what's happening. 191 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:50,000 I don't know, particularly because it was. Yeah, exactly. This like the first kind of setting that an educational setting that called in 192 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:55,000 allows for you to be like so actively engaged in shaping your own project that, 193 00:19:55,000 --> 00:20:00,000 yeah, it's a different skill set that you don't say you have, you know, just coming in. 194 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:09,000 And it's just the feeling of. Yeah, again, like isolation, failure, like I remember official supervisor meetings. 195 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:15,000 My only thought is like, why do you hate me? What have I done? And oh my God, I'm such a moron. 196 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,000 These are the two thoughts and I'm not the most productive thing. 197 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:25,000 And again, I'm talking about a person that you didn't actually do anything specifically wrong or bad. 198 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,000 I don't have no complaints. It's just that. Yeah. 199 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:34,000 Then how the relationship doesn't work rather than a person being at fault. 200 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:43,000 Let's talk about where you are now. So. You've had this set of supervisors for how long? 201 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:50,000 And three, four years. Okay. Yeah, three years. So how how is that going? 202 00:20:50,000 --> 00:21:00,000 How does how different is your experience now that you've got that stable supervisory relationship, that stable kind of support team? 203 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:14,000 I think the biggest. The biggest difference is that when we will now arrange for a supervisor meeting, I still a little bit get nervous. 204 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:21,000 But now I can. We feel much better than I previously. 205 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:26,000 It's like now I know that. It was that the experience is going to be pleasant. 206 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,000 That going to be no sort of like, you know, heart palpitation, nausea. 207 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:36,000 So it's definitely been an improvement. And its definitely it makes you feel much more confident. 208 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:43,000 Yeah, of course I can do this. I'll persevere and it will be fine. 209 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:52,000 It also, I mean, practically speaking, of course, it makes a difference in the like the research, having people giving you so like an. 210 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:57,000 Having the same the same set of people, looking at your work, seeing how you have progressed, 211 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:07,000 seems sort of like any potential issues that you have with your writing or like your methodology and things like that. 212 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:15,000 Yeah, because I think there's something really important in there about consistency, you know, and being able to see that development over time. 213 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:20,000 Whereas, you know, when you come into a piece of work you're just getting a snapshot of where it's currently at, 214 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:26,000 not kind of the journey that it's been on. And that can be about, you know, the quality of the writing and the quality of the ideas. 215 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:32,000 But it can also be about the kind of evolution of the project and the way in which things have developed and changed 216 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,000 And that's really important context. 217 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:43,000 You're exactly like you're working with people that have a good overview of your work, your ideas, your ways, like how you do things. 218 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:48,000 And definitely establishs a sort of like. I like a good trusting relations. 219 00:22:48,000 --> 00:23:00,000 And it also it helps you because I mean. Particularly in in social sciences, which is what I do. 220 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:09,000 It's sometimes it's just. You also need to adapt your work. 221 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:14,000 To what your supervisors sort of 222 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:23,000 To directions that your supervisors give you. So in that sense, consistency is definitely like helpful. 223 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,000 You agree with one supervisor and then someone is like 224 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:30,000 But, you know, I think it's better when you do ABC and then you work with another one that says exactly the opposite. 225 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:38,000 And then you work with a third one with other points, like it's so nice to work with people where you know exactly where you stand and what to do. 226 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:44,000 Yes, I think that's really important. And I guess my next question is what? 227 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:52,000 What advice would you give to someone who is going through a change of supervisor for whatever reason? 228 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:58,000 First of all, it's fine. It's okay. It's definitely not what you're definitely not the only person has ever gone through. 229 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:04,000 That doesn't mean that you are bad at what you do and it doesn't mean that 230 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,000 You won't be able to complete your PhD at all. 231 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,000 Whatever research project you're doing. So first and foremost, that's fine. 232 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,000 And secondly. It's better to work with. 233 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:26,000 It's better to have someone that your work working styles match rather than let's have someone that is an. 234 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:34,000 More relevant to your exact project, because after a couple of years, you will know more about your project than your supervisor 235 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:40,000 So you can do that by yourself but the relationship and have like having a trusting relationship with them. 236 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:49,000 It's much more important. Thank you so much to Maria for talking to me and being so open and honest about her 237 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:55,000 experience of changing supervisors several times and the impact that that had on her work. 238 00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:04,000 I'd be really interested to hear from more people about their experiences of the supervisory relationship, the good, the bad and the in between. 239 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:12,000 So if you interested in talking to me about your experience as a supervisor or a supervisor, please do get in touch. 240 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:17,000 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to, like, rate and subscribe and join me. 241 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:43,786 Next time. We'll be talking to somebody else about researches, development and everything in between.  

Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Hello and welcome to R, D and the In Betweens. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:32,000 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers, development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,000 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R Di and The Inbetweens. 4 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:44,000 Now I say episode, but I don't have an interview with a researcher for you this week. 5 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:51,000 There's a number of different reasons for that. One of which was that I was due to record an episode last Friday, 6 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:58,000 but I was off work the end of last week because I was suffering from a migraine 7 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:02,000 and I was just going to put out a kind of alert that said no episode this week. 8 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:03,000 Back in two weeks time. 9 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:17,000 But actually, I wanted to acknowledge something, which is that like, hey, everyone I'm speaking to right now, I've hit a brick wall. 10 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:24,000 I'm really struggling with all of the screen time, struggling with migraines and headaches, struggling to sleep. 11 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:32,000 And I just wanted to share that with you, just to remind you that right now that experience is normal and it's okay. 12 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:39,000 And also, if that's what you're experiencing, please, please give yourself some time and some headspace. 13 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:44,000 I had two days off work and another two days weekend away from the computer screen. 14 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:51,000 I still feel pretty kind of alert and stressed this week. I think it's my kind of fight or flight coming back into play. 15 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:59,000 But. I feel a lot better and I feel much more able to function than I did just a few days ago. 16 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:04,000 So the phrase that I've been hearing a lot recently, when we ask each other how we are, 17 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:11,000 as we tend to do in that very British way, is people responding with pandemic fine. 18 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:16,000 So I'm not fine. I'm pandemic fine. These days. 19 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:25,000 I seem to have three moods. Pandemic fine. Pandemic breakdown or extreme cabin fever. 20 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:30,000 So this is just a quick message to say sorry, there's no epsiode this week. 21 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,000 I'm just finding it tough to sit down at my computer. 22 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:43,000 And if you're experiencing that, too, I'm here in solidarity with you and it's okay and it's normal. 23 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:51,000 You know, it's the new normal for us. And I'm I'm really hoping that things are going to. 24 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:57,000 Continue to move in the right direction and change soon. And that's it for this episode. 25 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,000 Don't forget to, like, rate and subscribe and join me. 26 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:26,719 Next time. We'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

In this special mini episode, Kelly Preece talks to Léna Prouchet about adpating her research project due to COVID-19.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Hello and welcome, R, D And the in betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,000 and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:37,000 Hello and welcome to this special mini episode of R D and the In Betweens. 4 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:42,000 So one of the projects I'm working on at the moment at work is really trying to gather information 5 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:47,000 about how people's research projects have had to change due to COVID and how they manage that. 6 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:54,000 And when I spoke to Lena last week, she talked a little bit about how actually. 7 00:00:54,000 --> 00:01:01,000 She started two weeks before the start of the pandemic, and that changed the nature and scope of her project quite substantially. 8 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:11,000 So I wanted to take some of these conversations and make just a little special mini episode about how Lena adapted her project. 9 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:22,000 Yes. So I guess at the beginning we took a really inductive approach to this project. 10 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:27,000 And I mean, the pandemic happened two weeks after I started the project. 11 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:33,000 Yes. So the plan at the beginning was to collaborate with Cool Eartch 12 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:39,000 So from the beginning, I was supposed to work in their offices two days a week so I could get to know them and get to know their projects. 13 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:44,000 And after the plan was to go to Peru because they have a project there. 14 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:48,000 So the Latin American project they have are in Peru. 15 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:54,000 So I was supposed to do this exploratory trip where I would meet with the communities cool earth partner with. 16 00:01:54,000 --> 00:02:01,000 And we would come up with a research topic that would match everybody's interests. 17 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:07,000 Unfortunately, this was not possible because travelling to Peru was not an option. 18 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:17,000 So what I did was very much to tighten my links with Cool Earths so trying to understand their project 19 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:25,000 through Cool Earth itself and not the communities with the plan of going to Peru in the next few months. 20 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:34,000 So kind of know adapting my approach. And this was made by me attending most of their team meetings. 21 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:40,000 They have we also have meetings where we only talk about my research and I 22 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:47,000 also present my research project and how it evolves quite regularly to them, 23 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:56,000 to their team in the UK. So the team I was talking about are based in Penryn, but also to the country team they have in Peru. 24 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:04,000 That's really great and it does sound like you've had. A lot of freedom to shape the project. 25 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:10,000 Whilst I appreciate you know, it in organisational sense, 26 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:20,000 whilst at the same time being quite directed by not being able to go to Peru and the impact of COVID19, 27 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:25,000 I wondered if you could say a little bit about that experience, 28 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:31,000 about coming in with a kind of really clear understanding of what you were gonna do, 29 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:42,000 go and work and research these communities and then having to kind of really early on shift the focus of the project because of the pandemic. 30 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,000 Yeah. So that was that was a tough experience, especially. 31 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:51,000 I think it depends on people. And some people, they can adapt very easily. 32 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:58,000 But I'm a person who really likes to plan things. So I had applied to thisPhDposition. 33 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:04,000 The research proposal was already written. There was already the research question and the different steps of the research. 34 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:14,000 And for me, it was very reassuring because I would never have applied to a PhD and come up with a research proposal myself, 35 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,000 because I thought that I was ensured that my topic would be relevant. 36 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:24,000 So I thought if someone in academia identifies those gaps, it means they're expert on that. 37 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,000 So, I mean, it's it's helpful to do research in this area. 38 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:33,000 So this was very much my approach or I was only applying to project that were already super defined. 39 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:43,000 So I arrive and I have all this list. But like a to do list and it's very reassuring, especially since you don't know where to start. 40 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:52,000 And then two weeks after everything changes. Not only as a result of the pandemic, I think my project would have changed anyways. 41 00:04:52,000 --> 00:05:00,000 As I told you, because I needed you to take more of a business and management approach to it 42 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,000 And so eventually now when I would look at my research proposal, I think that I. 43 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:09,000 I did it myself. Like I really transformed it. 44 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:14,000 The only thing that remains from the beginning is the partnership with Cool Earth 45 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:23,000 And I think that that's the most important part. And I think I feel proud about it because I feel this is something. 46 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:28,000 Yeah. That was the result of months of work and collaboration and discussions. 47 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:37,000 And it's actually I have this sense of ownership that I wouldn't have had with the initial proposal. 48 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,000 So in the process of it, it was very hard. 49 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:48,000 I had months where I was coming up with a research question every week because I was stressing out a lot about it and thinking, 50 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:54,000 okay, I'm never going to find a relevant topic. It's never gonna happen. 51 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:59,000 I had those phases during the summer, but eventually it worked out. 52 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,000 So the process was tough. It was definitely worth it. 53 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,000 And now, yes, I'm happy. 54 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:13,000 Although I know it's going to change a lot when I start fieldwork and the approach is going to be totally different in the final work. 55 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:19,000 But for now, I'm I'm pleased with. With the topic and the approach. 56 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:26,000 Yeah. And I think there's a number of things that you said in that which I think are really important, which. 57 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:35,000 What I've been discussing a lot with colleagues, and it's not to in any way downplay the impact of COVID on people's research projects on it, 58 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:41,000 and it has had varying degrees of impact where kind of people have had to, 59 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:47,000 you know, shift to doing things, you know, doing interviews or whatever on line to completely, 60 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:54,000 you know, in in a lot of the ways that you don't like completely redesigning the project. 61 00:06:54,000 --> 00:07:01,000 But it's interesting to hear you talk about that kind of flexibility and adaptability and the importance of that and the 62 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:10,000 also the kind of slightly philosophical recognition that research is about change fundamentally. 63 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:16,000 And, you know, when you talk to any researcher, but certainly any, you know, postgraduate researcher like yourself, 64 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:27,000 where they start when they come in with a proposal and where they leave when they, you know, submit their thesis. 65 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:32,000 Are always two incredibly different places. 66 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:41,000 I'm not. And I think that's that's reassuring because, I mean, when you start to feel work is you're not open to what you're seeing, 67 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:48,000 what people tell you in you have your agenda in mind, in your just telling people, I'm going to do this and this and this. 68 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:54,000 I mean, it's I don't think that's a very constructive nor ethical approach. 69 00:07:54,000 --> 00:08:04,000 So I think it's good to. It's even necessary to to remain open minded during the entire project, especially in my case, 70 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:12,000 where I work with indigenous communities, where communities who have been over researched. 71 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:19,000 And it's interesting because I had the opportunity to talk with an anthropologist that work with Cool Earth last summer. 72 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:25,000 And she told me about her experience of going to the communities and during the community assembly. 73 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:32,000 So members of the communities telling her, yeah, but what ways should we take part in this? 74 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:39,000 It's always the same process of you Western researchers coming on taking our knowledge and leaving and we never hear from you again. 75 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:50,000 So what are the benefits from Forest? Right. So if you take a more participatory approach and saying, OK, we're gonna remain open, 76 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:58,000 we're going to construct this research together and we're going to identify your needs and see how the research projects can benefit, 77 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:05,000 can benefit you, then I think that's that's the best way of doing it. 78 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:12,000 Yeah. And I think. I think that's really interesting and the issue of of of ethics. 79 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:18,000 I think that was really interesting and I'll come back to that in a moment. But. 80 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:24,000 As you were saying that I was thinking about, well, actually, when you do get to do fieldwork now, 81 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:29,000 the framing and the approach of that field work will be very different. 82 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:41,000 Having worked within within the organisation in the U.K. for, you know, a year or plus and actually the kind of the way in which that will. 83 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:54,000 Inform. The way the way that your approach that and I guess the additional context and knowledge and skills and all those sorts of things that you've gained from. 84 00:09:54,000 --> 00:10:01,000 Taking that step back and spending time with the organisation. Yes, I think it also there are some pros and cons. 85 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,000 So, of course, the pros is that. I know. 86 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:15,000 I know more about what's happening in the community, the relationship between Cool Earth and the communities with UK and also Peruvian team. 87 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:22,000 So it's very good that I have this communication with Peruvian teams because they are the ones who go to the community more often. 88 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:27,000 They also have technicians that live with the communities. So I have this insight. 89 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,000 Well, on the other hand, then it gives me a certain perspective and a certain vision. 90 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:38,000 I don't think that's bad. And I think any researcher has has biases. 91 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,000 You just have to acknowledge that. 92 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:50,000 And you I mean, from the recommendation that I had in the various articles, I could read about that when you arrive, 93 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,000 even though you're in embedded research within your organisation, 94 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:57,000 when you arrive to fieldwork in the communities, you're not working for the organisation. 95 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:04,000 You have to make this clear to community members. Of course, because you have to tell them that you're independent and what they're going to tell you, 96 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:12,000 you're not going to going to report it in any way. So it's it's important for the trust and the relationships you're you're building with them. 97 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:20,000 But you also have to try to put aside what you've seen before and really take 98 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:26,000 this new approach and trying to understand from scratch what's happening there. 99 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:34,000 And this is very challenging. So the way now I see I'm going to try to to address this is to spend an initial 100 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:43,000 phase of one month in the communities doing only participant observation to. 101 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:51,000 Yes, to try to understand how he works there. Also to prove that I'm there, too, to work with them, 102 00:11:51,000 --> 00:12:00,000 but not to to steal anything in terms of of knowledge or practises, really to to build those those trust relationships. 103 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:07,000 And then from there, from what I've seen during the past, leaving the reservation and from my previous learnings with Cool Earth and the interviews, 104 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:14,000 I'm going to you then deciding on on follow up methods such as, I don't know, interview or focus groups. 105 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:27,000 But this will come in second time. So can you say a little bit about how you approached or went about thinking about how to change the project? 106 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:35,000 So, yes, after I think what mattered for me that I tried to get in touch with other PhD students 107 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:42,000 or postdocs to ask them about this process of reshaping their research topics, 108 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:47,000 because I know this is something that happens a lot for PhD programmes. 109 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:55,000 And I thought it was interesting to have the to the experience of my peers and some of them and told me, well, 110 00:12:55,000 --> 00:13:01,000 first of all, think about yourself, because you're going to live with this project for the next now three. 111 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,000 But it was four years at the beginning. 112 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:11,000 So if you don't like it, if you're not happy to to read about it, write about it every morning, then it's not going to work out. 113 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:18,000 And this is something I had kind of forgotten at the beginning because I really wanted to comply. 114 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:25,000 And to be sure, I was ticking the boxes. But then, yes, as the months came along, I thought, okay. 115 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:33,000 I have to find this balance and I have to find this topic that also pleases me in something I'm passionate about. 116 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:42,000 So this took really a long time. I started in March and they came up with the final idea in November. 117 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,000 And my supervisor, they had reassured me from the beginning that it was normal. 118 00:13:46,000 --> 00:14:00,000 It was going to take a long time. So you had to be to get lost in the the literature jungle and then see which angle you wanted to to adopt. 119 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:09,000 Thanks, Lena, for that insight into the reorganisation of PPhD project. 120 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:15,000 Two weeks in, I'd be really interested to talk to other people who've had to change their projects due to COVID. 121 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:19,000 So please, if you're interested in sharing your experience, good. 122 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:24,000 The bad, the ugly. Please do get in touch. And that's it for this episode. 123 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,000 Don't forget to, like, rate and subscribe and join me. 124 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:54,505 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

In this episode I talk again to Léna Prouchet about doing her PhD between the Environment and Sustainability Institute at the University of Exeter, and the NGO Cool Earth. You can find out more about Léna and her research on twitter and on her University of Exeter profile. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/    Podcast transcript 1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Hello and welcome, R, D And the in betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,000 and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:37,000 Hello and welcome to this special mini episode of R D and the In Betweens. 4 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:42,000 So one of the projects I'm working on at the moment at work is really trying to gather information 5 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:47,000 about how people's research projects have had to change due to COVID and how they manage that. 6 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:54,000 And when I spoke to Lena last week, she talked a little bit about how actually. 7 00:00:54,000 --> 00:01:01,000 She started two weeks before the start of the pandemic, and that changed the nature and scope of her project quite substantially. 8 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:11,000 So I wanted to take some of these conversations and make just a little special mini episode about how Lena adapted her project. 9 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:22,000 Yes. So I guess at the beginning we took a really inductive approach to this project. 10 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:27,000 And I mean, the pandemic happened two weeks after I started the project. 11 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:33,000 Yes. So the plan at the beginning was to collaborate with Cool Eartch 12 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:39,000 So from the beginning, I was supposed to work in their offices two days a week so I could get to know them and get to know their projects. 13 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:44,000 And after the plan was to go to Peru because they have a project there. 14 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:48,000 So the Latin American project they have are in Peru. 15 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:54,000 So I was supposed to do this exploratory trip where I would meet with the communities cool earth partner with. 16 00:01:54,000 --> 00:02:01,000 And we would come up with a research topic that would match everybody's interests. 17 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:07,000 Unfortunately, this was not possible because travelling to Peru was not an option. 18 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:17,000 So what I did was very much to tighten my links with Cool Earths so trying to understand their project 19 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:25,000 through Cool Earth itself and not the communities with the plan of going to Peru in the next few months. 20 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:34,000 So kind of know adapting my approach. And this was made by me attending most of their team meetings. 21 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:40,000 They have we also have meetings where we only talk about my research and I 22 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:47,000 also present my research project and how it evolves quite regularly to them, 23 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:56,000 to their team in the UK. So the team I was talking about are based in Penryn, but also to the country team they have in Peru. 24 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:04,000 That's really great and it does sound like you've had. A lot of freedom to shape the project. 25 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:10,000 Whilst I appreciate you know, it in organisational sense, 26 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:20,000 whilst at the same time being quite directed by not being able to go to Peru and the impact of COVID19, 27 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:25,000 I wondered if you could say a little bit about that experience, 28 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:31,000 about coming in with a kind of really clear understanding of what you were gonna do, 29 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:42,000 go and work and research these communities and then having to kind of really early on shift the focus of the project because of the pandemic. 30 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,000 Yeah. So that was that was a tough experience, especially. 31 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:51,000 I think it depends on people. And some people, they can adapt very easily. 32 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:58,000 But I'm a person who really likes to plan things. So I had applied to thisPhDposition. 33 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:04,000 The research proposal was already written. There was already the research question and the different steps of the research. 34 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:14,000 And for me, it was very reassuring because I would never have applied to a PhD and come up with a research proposal myself, 35 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,000 because I thought that I was ensured that my topic would be relevant. 36 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:24,000 So I thought if someone in academia identifies those gaps, it means they're expert on that. 37 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,000 So, I mean, it's it's helpful to do research in this area. 38 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:33,000 So this was very much my approach or I was only applying to project that were already super defined. 39 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:43,000 So I arrive and I have all this list. But like a to do list and it's very reassuring, especially since you don't know where to start. 40 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:52,000 And then two weeks after everything changes. Not only as a result of the pandemic, I think my project would have changed anyways. 41 00:04:52,000 --> 00:05:00,000 As I told you, because I needed you to take more of a business and management approach to it 42 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,000 And so eventually now when I would look at my research proposal, I think that I. 43 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:09,000 I did it myself. Like I really transformed it. 44 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:14,000 The only thing that remains from the beginning is the partnership with Cool Earth 45 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:23,000 And I think that that's the most important part. And I think I feel proud about it because I feel this is something. 46 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:28,000 Yeah. That was the result of months of work and collaboration and discussions. 47 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:37,000 And it's actually I have this sense of ownership that I wouldn't have had with the initial proposal. 48 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,000 So in the process of it, it was very hard. 49 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:48,000 I had months where I was coming up with a research question every week because I was stressing out a lot about it and thinking, 50 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:54,000 okay, I'm never going to find a relevant topic. It's never gonna happen. 51 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:59,000 I had those phases during the summer, but eventually it worked out. 52 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,000 So the process was tough. It was definitely worth it. 53 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,000 And now, yes, I'm happy. 54 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:13,000 Although I know it's going to change a lot when I start fieldwork and the approach is going to be totally different in the final work. 55 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:19,000 But for now, I'm I'm pleased with. With the topic and the approach. 56 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:26,000 Yeah. And I think there's a number of things that you said in that which I think are really important, which. 57 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:35,000 What I've been discussing a lot with colleagues, and it's not to in any way downplay the impact of COVID on people's research projects on it, 58 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:41,000 and it has had varying degrees of impact where kind of people have had to, 59 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:47,000 you know, shift to doing things, you know, doing interviews or whatever on line to completely, 60 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:54,000 you know, in in a lot of the ways that you don't like completely redesigning the project. 61 00:06:54,000 --> 00:07:01,000 But it's interesting to hear you talk about that kind of flexibility and adaptability and the importance of that and the 62 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:10,000 also the kind of slightly philosophical recognition that research is about change fundamentally. 63 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:16,000 And, you know, when you talk to any researcher, but certainly any, you know, postgraduate researcher like yourself, 64 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:27,000 where they start when they come in with a proposal and where they leave when they, you know, submit their thesis. 65 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:32,000 Are always two incredibly different places. 66 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:41,000 I'm not. And I think that's that's reassuring because, I mean, when you start to feel work is you're not open to what you're seeing, 67 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:48,000 what people tell you in you have your agenda in mind, in your just telling people, I'm going to do this and this and this. 68 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:54,000 I mean, it's I don't think that's a very constructive nor ethical approach. 69 00:07:54,000 --> 00:08:04,000 So I think it's good to. It's even necessary to to remain open minded during the entire project, especially in my case, 70 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:12,000 where I work with indigenous communities, where communities who have been over researched. 71 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:19,000 And it's interesting because I had the opportunity to talk with an anthropologist that work with Cool Earth last summer. 72 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:25,000 And she told me about her experience of going to the communities and during the community assembly. 73 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:32,000 So members of the communities telling her, yeah, but what ways should we take part in this? 74 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:39,000 It's always the same process of you Western researchers coming on taking our knowledge and leaving and we never hear from you again. 75 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:50,000 So what are the benefits from Forest? Right. So if you take a more participatory approach and saying, OK, we're gonna remain open, 76 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:58,000 we're going to construct this research together and we're going to identify your needs and see how the research projects can benefit, 77 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:05,000 can benefit you, then I think that's that's the best way of doing it. 78 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:12,000 Yeah. And I think. I think that's really interesting and the issue of of of ethics. 79 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:18,000 I think that was really interesting and I'll come back to that in a moment. But. 80 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:24,000 As you were saying that I was thinking about, well, actually, when you do get to do fieldwork now, 81 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:29,000 the framing and the approach of that field work will be very different. 82 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:41,000 Having worked within within the organisation in the U.K. for, you know, a year or plus and actually the kind of the way in which that will. 83 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:54,000 Inform. The way the way that your approach that and I guess the additional context and knowledge and skills and all those sorts of things that you've gained from. 84 00:09:54,000 --> 00:10:01,000 Taking that step back and spending time with the organisation. Yes, I think it also there are some pros and cons. 85 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,000 So, of course, the pros is that. I know. 86 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:15,000 I know more about what's happening in the community, the relationship between Cool Earth and the communities with UK and also Peruvian team. 87 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:22,000 So it's very good that I have this communication with Peruvian teams because they are the ones who go to the community more often. 88 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:27,000 They also have technicians that live with the communities. So I have this insight. 89 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,000 Well, on the other hand, then it gives me a certain perspective and a certain vision. 90 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:38,000 I don't think that's bad. And I think any researcher has has biases. 91 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,000 You just have to acknowledge that. 92 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:50,000 And you I mean, from the recommendation that I had in the various articles, I could read about that when you arrive, 93 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,000 even though you're in embedded research within your organisation, 94 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:57,000 when you arrive to fieldwork in the communities, you're not working for the organisation. 95 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:04,000 You have to make this clear to community members. Of course, because you have to tell them that you're independent and what they're going to tell you, 96 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:12,000 you're not going to going to report it in any way. So it's it's important for the trust and the relationships you're you're building with them. 97 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:20,000 But you also have to try to put aside what you've seen before and really take 98 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:26,000 this new approach and trying to understand from scratch what's happening there. 99 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:34,000 And this is very challenging. So the way now I see I'm going to try to to address this is to spend an initial 100 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:43,000 phase of one month in the communities doing only participant observation to. 101 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:51,000 Yes, to try to understand how he works there. Also to prove that I'm there, too, to work with them, 102 00:11:51,000 --> 00:12:00,000 but not to to steal anything in terms of of knowledge or practises, really to to build those those trust relationships. 103 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:07,000 And then from there, from what I've seen during the past, leaving the reservation and from my previous learnings with Cool Earth and the interviews, 104 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:14,000 I'm going to you then deciding on on follow up methods such as, I don't know, interview or focus groups. 105 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:27,000 But this will come in second time. So can you say a little bit about how you approached or went about thinking about how to change the project? 106 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:35,000 So, yes, after I think what mattered for me that I tried to get in touch with other PhD students 107 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:42,000 or postdocs to ask them about this process of reshaping their research topics, 108 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:47,000 because I know this is something that happens a lot for PhD programmes. 109 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:55,000 And I thought it was interesting to have the to the experience of my peers and some of them and told me, well, 110 00:12:55,000 --> 00:13:01,000 first of all, think about yourself, because you're going to live with this project for the next now three. 111 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,000 But it was four years at the beginning. 112 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:11,000 So if you don't like it, if you're not happy to to read about it, write about it every morning, then it's not going to work out. 113 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:18,000 And this is something I had kind of forgotten at the beginning because I really wanted to comply. 114 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:25,000 And to be sure, I was ticking the boxes. But then, yes, as the months came along, I thought, okay. 115 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:33,000 I have to find this balance and I have to find this topic that also pleases me in something I'm passionate about. 116 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:42,000 So this took really a long time. I started in March and they came up with the final idea in November. 117 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,000 And my supervisor, they had reassured me from the beginning that it was normal. 118 00:13:46,000 --> 00:14:00,000 It was going to take a long time. So you had to be to get lost in the the literature jungle and then see which angle you wanted to to adopt. 119 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:09,000 Thanks, Lena, for that insight into the reorganisation of PPhD project. 120 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:15,000 Two weeks in, I'd be really interested to talk to other people who've had to change their projects due to COVID. 121 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:19,000 So please, if you're interested in sharing your experience, good. 122 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:24,000 The bad, the ugly. Please do get in touch. And that's it for this episode. 123 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,000 Don't forget to, like, rate and subscribe and join me. 124 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:54,505 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.   1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Hello and welcome to R, D and the in betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,000 and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,000 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens. 4 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:41,000 It's Kelly Preece here. And today I'm gonna be talking to one of our PGRs Lena. 5 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:48,000 Now, Lena started her PhD at a really odd time just a couple of weeks before the start of the pandemic. 6 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:57,000 But the reason that I wanted to talk to her is actually because her PhD is a collaboration between the university and an external partner. 7 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:01,000 This is a common thing in these days in terms of funding, 8 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:09,000 but it presents particular situations and challenges for the student in working between two very different organisations. 9 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,000 And I was delighted that Lena was happy to speak to me about this. 10 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:18,000 So, Lena, are you happy to introduce yourself? Yeah. Hi. 11 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:24,000 Good morning. Thank you for for having me in your podcast, Kelly. So my name is Lena. 12 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:32,000 I'm finishing the first year of my PhD in the business school that I'm based in the ESI 13 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:41,000 So the Environmental and Sustainability Institute in Penryn and my PhD looks at how indigenous intrapreneurship, 14 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:50,000 so more specifically cocoa and coffee growing, can empower forest communities who perform these activities. 15 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:56,000 And more specifically, I'm interested in how these activities are supported by external organisations 16 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:05,000 such as NGOs and how these organisations play a role in the empowerment processes. 17 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:11,000 So, yeah, I work in directly in collaboration with an NGO called Cool Earth 18 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:16,000 So they are based on the penryn campus as well. 19 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:27,000 And they're a conservation NGO whose founding principle is that people who live in the rainforest should determine their own future. 20 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:32,000 So Cool Earth creates projects for sustainable livelihood creation, 21 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:38,000 and those projects can contribute to forest preservation and climate change mitigation. 22 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,000 That's great. Thank you. 23 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:49,000 So actually, the thing we're going to talk about today is the experience for you of working between the university and the NGO. 24 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,000 So I guess it's a good place to start is. How how did that come about? 25 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:59,000 So how I guess, how did the  collaboration between the NGO and the university came about? 26 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:05,000 And then what kind of led you to become interested and apply for the project? 27 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:13,000 Yeah. So I applied for this PhD position in July twenty nineteen, so it's been quite a long time ago now. 28 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,000 And on the project description, there was no direct mention. 29 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:27,000 Of Cool Earth, the project was only talking about food security issues within indigenous communities in Latin America. 30 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:36,000 And this was a topic I was very interested in because at that time I was doing a masters degree in food policy. 31 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,000 And previous to that, I had done a master's in international development. 32 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:47,000 And I had looked for my thesis, the question of the preservation of indigenous intellectual property. 33 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:51,000 So it was very in line with my interests. 34 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:56,000 So then I emailed the main supervisor to ask for more information. 35 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:01,000 I got in touch with the main supervisor of the project, who is Stefano Pascucci 36 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:06,000 and he explained to me that this project will be a collaboration with Cool Earth 37 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,000 So this was already decided. 38 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:16,000 And actually, when I took the interview, there were two people from the University of Exeter and two people from Cool Earth. 39 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:22,000 So, okay, so the the relationship and the NGO were really embedded from the beginning then. 40 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:35,000 They're part of the interview process as well. Yes. So I guess at the beginning we took a really inductive approach to this project. 41 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:41,000 And I mean, the pandemic happened two weeks after I started the project. 42 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:46,000 Yes. So the plan at the beginning was to collaborate with Cool Earth. 43 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:53,000 So from the beginning, I was supposed to work in their offices two days a week so I could get to know them and get to know their projects. 44 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:58,000 And after the plan was to go to Peru because they have a project there. 45 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,000 So the Latin American project they have are in Peru. 46 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:07,000 So I was supposed to do this exploratory trip where I would meet with the communities cool earth partner with. 47 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:14,000 And we would have come up with a research topic that would match everybody's interests. 48 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:20,000 Unfortunately, this was not possible because travelling to Peru was not an option. 49 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:31,000 So what I did was very much to tighten my links with Cool Earth so trying to understand their project 50 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:38,000 through Cool Earth itself and not the communities with the plan of going to Peru in the next few months. 51 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:47,000 So kind of, you know, adapting my approach. And this was made by me attending most of their team meetings. 52 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:53,000 They have we also have meetings where we only talk about my research and I 53 00:05:53,000 --> 00:06:00,000 also present my research project and how it evolves quite regularly to them, 54 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:06,000 to their team in the UK. So the team I was talking about based in Penryn, but also to the in country. 55 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,000 team they have in Peru Think the the shift in the project. 56 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:16,000 That was really interesting. So I can I can sort of imagine that the dynamic and the relationship between you, 57 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:22,000 the research and the research project and the organisation had to shift quite considerably if you're 58 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:30,000 going from kind of researching the projects and the communities that they work with to actually. 59 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:36,000 Researching the organiser. Yes. So that's a very interesting point, so. 60 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:41,000 So at the beginning, my unit of analysis was supposed to be the communities themselves. 61 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:51,000 But since I I have this embedded approach. As you said that I came to really try to understand how Cool Earth worked and 62 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:56,000 why was their theory of change and why were the challenges they were facing. 63 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:06,000 I shifted my approach and now the units of analysis is more the network that cool earth created in these creating with its partners. 64 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:11,000 So it really influenced my approach. It also changed the topic of my research. 65 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:17,000 So as I told you at the beginning, it was very much so food security related. 66 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:24,000 And more specifically, was alluding to sustainable agriculture and agroecology. 67 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:31,000 But early on, I realised that there were issues with this this topic. 68 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,000 And first of all, in the sense that I couldn't go to Peru, as I said before. 69 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:39,000 So it was very hard for me to understand what was happening there exactly on the ground. 70 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:47,000 Although cool earth gave me very interesting insights on what was happening there. 71 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:52,000 But the second problem I had is that I'm PhD student in the business school. 72 00:07:52,000 --> 00:08:03,000 And it was made clear to me by my supervisors from the beginning that I had to bring a contribution to the business or the management literature. 73 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:09,000 So I tried to to shift the topic so that it would please both. 74 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:19,000 Cool earth and the business school, my supervisor, and most importantly, that it would be a topic that I would be passionate about. 75 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:25,000 I mean, simple as that. Yeah. So it took a long time. 76 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:30,000 A lot of it was a very iterative process, a lot of conversation. 77 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:36,000 What was great was that there was always a connection between my supervisors and cool earth as well. 78 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:42,000 So we had a meeting where we would all talk together about my projects or communication. 79 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:51,000 I think it was very important in this process. And I mean this I think this is part of the hD research that you have to constantly adapt. 80 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:57,000 And I consider myself lucky because, I mean, I started the PhD really two weeks before lockdown. 81 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,000 So nothing was set in stone yet. I could really adapt. 82 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:08,000 It's not like I had planned already. I had my tickets for Peru and I had to change everything, which would have been way more complicated. 83 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:13,000 Of course, there's a couple of things I want to pick up, pick up on that in terms of relationship. 84 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:19,000 So the first one to kind of sort of, you know, 85 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:25,000 focussed more on the kind of topic for the minute is about your relationship, therefore, with the organisation. 86 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:32,000 So. You know, you talked about being kind of embedded in it and, you know, the idea was that you'd spend time in their offices. 87 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:38,000 Obviously, that has happened, I imagine, in a in a very different way during the pandemic. 88 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:45,000 But I wondered if you could talk about kind of being embedded or being part of the organisation, 89 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:51,000 but also researching the organisation and what's that what that's like for you as a researcher, 90 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:59,000 but also what how that kind of how that affects your relationships with the people in the organisation, how you navigate that? 91 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:09,000 Does that make sense? Yeah, sure. So it's funny because this concept of embedded research I actually found about it quite recently when 92 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:16,000 I was so I was working on my upgrades and I was having a conversation with one of my supervisor, 93 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:22,000 one of my supervisors, sorry, and she told me what actually what you're doing is is embedded research, 94 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:31,000 because usually what a researcher does is preparing and having this phase of literature review and then going to the to the field. 95 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:41,000 But what happened for me was I dived into the field from day one and I hadn't really realised that for me it was something natural about had happened. 96 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:51,000 And actually this position has a lot of consequences on the approach towards the research project, and it has benefits and challenges. 97 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:55,000 So I would say that. 98 00:10:55,000 --> 00:11:03,000 So the main benefit that you have is that you're really able to build those trust based relationships with the other members of the team. 99 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:09,000 So you understand what the work is, but also who they are as a person. 100 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:19,000 So you can really bond with them. And I think it's a very important element of research, of building this, what is called the raport. 101 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:23,000 You can also gain deep knowledge on the organisation. 102 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:28,000 It's not like you look at their Web site. You really understand how they work from an internal point of view. 103 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:33,000 And they think this is also very valuable. 104 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:44,000 And this allows you to build a project that I called action oriented in the sense that I really endeavour to ensure that my research priorities 105 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:54,000 were in line with Cool earth's interests and that I was I was coming up with a project that could really inform their future strategies. 106 00:11:54,000 --> 00:12:02,000 I mean, also, it is going to be an academic work, but I really wanted to be Demand-Driven. 107 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:11,000 We also had the opportunity to to work on a variety of projects that are not necessarily related to my to my research group. 108 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:18,000 We're working, for example, on a crowdfunding application together or on a conference abstract 109 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:24,000 So we have though those side projects are very also interesting for me. 110 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:31,000 And I would say that it's also super nice to meet with people during the pandemic because otherwise I don't have a research group. 111 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,000 So it would be very much me, myself and I. 112 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:43,000 I'm in meetings with my supervisors, of course, but those weekly meetings I have with Cool earth have been very important for my mental health as well. 113 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:48,000 this also comes with some challenges so like you were 114 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:58,000 mentioning my relationship with the organisation and how I can manage that because I'm researching them at the same time, which can be quite tricky. 115 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:06,000 So in terms of ethics, approach, first avoids very hard to to manage that, because in the end, 116 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:13,000 when you're going through the ethical review process, you don't have to start that correction before having the approval. 117 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:20,000 So all the information I gathered until now, I'm not going to do for in my research is data. 118 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,000 I'm going to just use it as a way of building my research project. 119 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:27,000 But then I'm going to do formal interviews with cool Earth members. 120 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:35,000 And I already told them that everything they had disclosed with me previously, I wouldn't use it for. 121 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:36,000 For ethics purposes. 122 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:45,000 So you have also to be aware that there might be the temptation of  thinking, oh, I heard this amazing thing during a meeting. 123 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:52,000 That would be great if I can use it. But no, you can't. So this is something you really have to be careful about. 124 00:13:52,000 --> 00:14:01,000 As I was saying, I also tend to very much focus on trying to come up with a project that's helpful for Cool Earth. 125 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:07,000 And since I have those very tight links with them, sometimes I tend to forget. 126 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:12,000 But I also am a PhD student and I have to bring a contribution to specific literature. 127 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,000 So it's kind of hard to be in the middle sometimes. 128 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:23,000 So I try to remind myself and my supervisors are here for that as well. 129 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:32,000 And also, I would say that the last element is. I really feel that Cool earth's members, they trust me and they value my opinion. 130 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:40,000 So sometimes, yes, I share with them my thoughts or some notes on academic reading I had. 131 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:50,000 But I feel I lack the legitimacy to really be able to provide any advice, because, I mean, there they have been there for a long time. 132 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:56,000 They know the topic. They know your communities. They have relationship with those communities. 133 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:02,000 And I'm on the I have only been there for 12 months and working from home. 134 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,000 So, yeah, sometimes it's I feel a little bit like that. 135 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,000 But otherwise, it has been a great experience. Sounds really fruitful. 136 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:17,000 And I think it's really interesting to hear you talk about the sense of connection with people that working in this way has given you, 137 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:24,000 particularly during the kind of the UK lockdowns and the corona virus pandemic, because. 138 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:30,000 Yeah, the impact on your mental health. I think that that's a really interesting facet and kind of had extra of this. 139 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:38,000 So you've talked a little bit about kind of making sure that the research project is useful to the organisation, 140 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,000 making sure that it makes an academic contribution. 141 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:50,000 So sort of satisfying your supervisors at the university, but also making sure that it's interesting to you as a researcher and. 142 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:56,000 I sort of glibly commented when you mentioned that oh it's as simple as that. But of course, we know that it's it's nothing like. 143 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:05,000 So I wondered if you could talk a little bit about how how you negotiate that kind of almost a triad of expectations, 144 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:11,000 but also kind of triad of what people want out of the project and how what the 145 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:15,000 challenges are with that and maybe a little bit about how you've been negotiating it. 146 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,000 Yes, sure. So I as I mentioned before, 147 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:30,000 I think one of the key points was to have this communication with both my supervisors and my academic team and cool earth and even between then, 148 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,000 they can communicate. So it's not just me telling to the other. 149 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:38,000 Oh, they have told me that in doing this back and forth thing, we have really a group. 150 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:43,000 I feel it. So we're a group and we we all have a common goal. 151 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:48,000 And we wanted to create a project that is interesting for all of us. 152 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:54,000 So I think it's important then that we are on the same line also from the beginning. 153 00:16:54,000 --> 00:17:02,000 Cool earth's members told me that they were really open on their research topic as long as it was relevant to their projects. 154 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:12,000 So they really gave me this freedom and they did an imposing list of topic I should focus on. 155 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:20,000 So, yes, after I think what mattered for me that I tried to get in touch with other PhD students 156 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:27,000 or postdocs to ask them about this process of reshaping their research topics, 157 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:32,000 because I know this is something that happens a lot for PhD programmes. 158 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:40,000 And I thought it was interesting to have to the experience of my peers and a lot of them told me, well, 159 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:46,000 first of all, think about yourself, because you're going to live with this project for the next now three. 160 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,000 But it was four years at the beginning. 161 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:56,000 So if you don't like it, if you're not happy to to read about it, write about it every morning, then it's not going to work out. 162 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:06,000 And this is something I had. Kind of forgotten at the beginning because I really wanted to comply and to be sure, I was ticking the boxes. 163 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,000 But then, yes, as the months came along, I thought, okay. 164 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:18,000 I have to find this balance and I have to find this topic that also pleases me in something I'm passionate about. 165 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:27,000 So this took really a long time. I started in March and they came up with the final idea in November. 166 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:31,000 And my supervisor, they had reassured me from the beginning that it was normal. 167 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:44,000 It was going to take a long time. So you had to be to get lost in the literature jungle and then and see which angle you wanted to to adopt. 168 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:52,000 I wanted to talk to close by asking you if that's another potential PGR out there, 169 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:59,000 who is looking at doing a piece of research that is working between a university and external organisation. 170 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:05,000 What advice would you give them? What would you sort of tell them to consider? 171 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:12,000 Mm hmm. Yeah. So how to be a good embedded researcher? 172 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:23,000 Well, first of all, that that's an approach I would definitely encourage as often as possible when it's relevant to the research topic. 173 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:34,000 I think what's important is to be clear from the beginning of what the collaboration entails and what it does not entail. 174 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:43,000 Even to have it's written down. So it's it's clear between the researcher and the organisation, but also the supervisory team. 175 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:54,000 And I think what makes for me this collaboration very fruitful is the communication between the organisation and my supervisory team. 176 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,000 I think it's very good to have this contact. So to ensure we are on the same line. 177 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:03,000 And there are no there are not two agendas growing side to side. 178 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:09,000 And because I think this is the one thing that can be very challenging for for researchers. 179 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:16,000 Thank you so much to Lena for sharing her experience with us of working between the university and 180 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:24,000 Cool Earth and the unique challenges there are between working between the university and industry partner, 181 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:29,000 but also doing that and starting that during COVID 182 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:35,000 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like rate and subscribe and join me next time. 183 00:20:35,000 --> 00:21:01,149 where i'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

In this episode I talk Edward Mills and Dr. Tom Hinton about their supervisory relationship, from exchanging their first speculative emails about the PhD to working together now on a postdoctoral project.  Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/    Podcast transcript 1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Hello and welcome, R, D and And The Inbetweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:31,000 and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:36,000 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and The Inbetweens. 4 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:44,000 It's Kelly Preece. And today I'm gonna be talking to both sides of a PhD supervisory team to Edward Mills. 5 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:53,000 He's been on this podcast a few times, talking about writing up his thesis and preparing for your Viva is here today with his PhD supervisor 6 00:00:53,000 --> 00:01:02,000 and now postdoc supervisor Dr. Thomas Hinton to talk about the supervisory relationship from both sides. 7 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:11,000 What makes a good supervisor? What makes a good supervisor? And what advice they have for other students and academics. 8 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,000 So, Tom, first, you happy to introduce yourself? Yes. 9 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:15,000 So I'm Tom Hinton. 10 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:26,000 I'm a senior lecturer in French in the Department of Modern Languages, specialised in the Middle Ages, particularly medieval French and Occitan Fab. 11 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:32,000 Edward. Hello, my name's Edward. I am just in the process of finishing up my PhD 12 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:38,000 I've just submitted my corrections in modern languages. Work on many of these similar areas. 13 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:44,000 Tom. Really Which is appropriate, I think, given the focus for for this podcast. 14 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:49,000 So, yeah, we're gonna talk about the supervisory relationship and the particular supervisory 15 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,000 relationship that Tom and Edward have experienced over the past four years. 16 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,000 I guess best thing to do is go right back to the start. Back to the beginning. 17 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:03,000 So how did you come to be Tom's student Edward? 18 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,000 So I am very fortunate. 19 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:18,000 I think on one thing which I am conscious of in this episode is I'm going to give everybody supervisor envy. But to go way back. 20 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,000 It actually happened because of an email that we sent out. 21 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:32,000 So I was working in France after finishing my master's and my masters supervisor who knew that myself, 22 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:37,000 another master's candidate, were interested in doing PhDs 23 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:43,000 occasionally sent out emails to us saying, you know, have you seen this opportunity for funding, this opportunity for funding and so on and so forth. 24 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:51,000 And it just so happened that Tom had sent one round about some funding that was available in Exeter, 25 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:59,000 mentioning that there were these three student ships and it would be great to have some mediaeval French representation 26 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:07,000 in amongst that this sort of new cohort and that French specific PhD funding was and still is quite rare. 27 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:18,000 So I sat down over Christmas five years ago and wrote an email, basically, and that's sort of where it started, isn't it, Tom? 28 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:29,000 Really? Yeah, I think it's a I mean, that's how a lot of PhD supervisor relationships start, I think is through someone e-mailing in this case. 29 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,000 I was, as I would explain, 30 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:39,000 I was trying to be proactive in terms of putting feelers out to colleagues around the country to see if they had students who be interested. 31 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:47,000 And then you get an email in your inbox. And I think obviously it's important that the project is a good fit. 32 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:52,000 So it doesn't it doesn't have to be exactly what you're working on, but you have to, as a supervisor, 33 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:58,000 be able to see yourself giving good value, being the right person for that project. 34 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:03,000 In this case, it did so happen that it was remarkably close to what I was interested in. 35 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:10,000 And I think, um, the the topic immediately caught my interest. 36 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,000 So was that so that you said that there was funding available? 37 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:22,000 So was there an interview process? Did you like what kind of interaction did you have in advance of you starting Ed? 38 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:28,000 Edward, did you speak on the phone or did you meet and get to meet in person or. 39 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:33,000 So we most did it via e-mail. I think Tom is not fair to say. 40 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:38,000 Yeah, I think almost entirely wasn't it I think. Yeah. I actually spoke face to face to you. 41 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:43,000 I don't think we ever spoke on the phone. But the time we spoke face to face, I think you already had your offer. 42 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,000 I think that's why. Yeah. So there was an application process. 43 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:57,000 I actually did something I wouldn't recommend to future applicants, which is I only applied for this one particular pot of funding. 44 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,000 I this was university funding rather than DTP funding. 45 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:06,000 So looking back, I was incredibly fortunate that I was successful in this respect. 46 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:12,000 I would definitely recommend applying for funding in as many places as possible. 47 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,000 But in terms of the particular funding stream that I was on. 48 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:21,000 Yeah, there was an application and interview process. 49 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:26,000 So I'd say that our correspondance kind of split into two phases roughly. 50 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:31,000 The first one was when we were kind of hammering out what the project would would be about. 51 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:36,000 And again, that was mostly for me. I think it's it's fair to say, Tom, I think that's really the right way of going about it. 52 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,000 Yeah. And I think that's quite it's kind of surprisingly important stage. 53 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:51,000 I think potentially in it as a supervisor, I see that's the time when I can ask questions that that might prompt further reflection, 54 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:56,000 might prompt revision of certain parts,  improvements. 55 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,000 So that by the time a candidate arrives at they're actually submitting an actual application. 56 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:07,000 They're in the best possible place. I think it's you know, if this relationship is going to work well afterwards, 57 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:13,000 it's useful if you can kind of get it in even in that speculative phase when you don't know if you need to get to work together. 58 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:18,000 I've had other students where they weren't successful in the applications, 59 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:25,000 and you could look at that as a lost time when you invest time in in a student and helping them to refine their ideas. 60 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:31,000 But actually, it's it's crucial, I think, once that those projects that do get off the ground once you get going, 61 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:36,000 because then it allows you to already know that you are probably for it. 62 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:43,000 I mean, I'll ask you here, Edward, but I think for the student, it's an opportunity to kind of see how you might work with that supervisor as well. 63 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:48,000 Intellectually. Yeah, I think that's that's absolutely right. 64 00:06:48,000 --> 00:07:00,000 And I remember being very struck when I started emailing back and forth and we started coming to see the second stage in particular, 65 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:08,000 which was why me producing a rough research proposal now kind of refining it together. 66 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:14,000 I think we went through several versions of it, didn't we, before before we submitted it. 67 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:28,000 And I remember being struck by the level of detail of care and of interest that Tom showed for it. 68 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,000 It's definitely an opportunity, as you said, time for the student to see how the relationship would work. 69 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:38,000 And it was something that really. Made me think that. 70 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:39,000 Exeter was a place I'd want to go. 71 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:45,000 This isn't an advert for the University of Exeter or necessarily for Tom Hinton, though I certainly would make that in a heartbeat. 72 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:51,000 But it's if you get that sense that there's a good dialogue going between you. 73 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:57,000 It's it's really, really positive step. Nothing made me feel. 74 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:03,000 More keen to go to Exeter. Or to work with this particular supervisor, 75 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:11,000 then the degree of interest that there was in the feeling that this was a project that that you take it on were interested in. 76 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,000 I think. 77 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:20,000 I think I think that that's a it's such an important part of the process and it's not depending what discipline you're in, it's not always possible, 78 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:30,000 because particularly in the sciences, you're applying to a very specific project which is led by a very specific supervisor or principal investigator. 79 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,000 But we're kind of in the more humanities and social sciences. 80 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:41,000 It's such so important to have that conversation. It's like you say, Tom, it's not just about how you're going to work together intellectually, 81 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:46,000 but also about actually what the dynamic of the relationship is going to be. 82 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:53,000 And if that that that is right for you, it's kind of like an audition like it for you both to sort of feel like, is this is this going to work for us? 83 00:08:53,000 --> 00:09:00,000 Is this going to be the kind of relationship that we're both going to find? 84 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:05,000 Intellectually and I guess professionally is the word I'd use fruitful. 85 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:10,000 Say they want to commit to over a significant period of time? It is. 86 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:15,000 Yeah, I'm pleased to say that I managed to I managed to dupe Tom and four a bit. 87 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:22,000 Years later, he's still trying to escape, I believe. So. 88 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:30,000 Thinking about this over the span of the past four years of your supervisory relationship. 89 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:34,000 What will? I guess I'll ask you first. 90 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,000 Edward, what? How would you describe the dynamic of it? 91 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:44,000 You talked about how in those initial interactions you felt that there was an awful lot of attention to detail and a sense of care. 92 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:49,000 Is that did that kind of follow through in there in the rest of the relationship? 93 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:55,000 How how would you say the dynamics are? Yeah, I think it definitely did carry on through. 94 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:59,000 So in our first meeting together in September, we already met in person over the summer. 95 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,000 But in our first sort of September meeting, 96 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:10,000 Tom suggested that we start by effectively just discussing the document that I've been working on over the previous few months, 97 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:15,000 which was the research proposal, just seeing if anything had changed in the couple of months since, 98 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:23,000 obviously I'd last discussed it with him and seeing if anything new had come up and discussing how we might get started. 99 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,000 Which in the arts nad humanities is often a difficult conversation to have. 100 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,000 So, yeah, I definitely did, I think continue on that sense of good care and an interest. 101 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,000 Yeah. What about. What about for you, Tom? 102 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:44,000 How would you describe your dynamically working relationship with Edward as this as a supervisor and supervisor? 103 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:49,000 I think the great thing about Edward is that he'll always come to meetings with ideas. 104 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:56,000 So there's always something to discuss. There's always a really some really interesting routes in 105 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:07,000 And I guess for me it's been I'd say, first of all, I want to talk about it intellectually and then about sort of interpersonally, intellectually. 106 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:13,000 It's been an interesting experience supervising PhD that's really quite close to the kinds of questions that I'm interested in, 107 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:22,000 because I've been very aware all the way through not wanting to to guide the project in the way that I might have if it was me working on it. 108 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:27,000 So it's obvious it's crucial that this is the student's project. 109 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:35,000 And your role as supervisor, I think, is to try to prompt, to nudge, to advise, but not to not to guide or to take over in any way. 110 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:41,000 Hopefully that's something I've managed to avoid doing. And interpersonally, I think it's always been. 111 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,000 It was very straightforward and easy from the start. 112 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:50,000 I think we were lucky from that point of view because, you know, there's an element of luck about this as well. 113 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:56,000 So you get a bit of a sense of of your supervisor's personality and your students personality from early exchanges. 114 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:00,000 But in the end, you you can bring two people together. 115 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:05,000 Hopefully we'll get on and certainly be professional. You know, it's very important that professional relationship. 116 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:10,000 In our case, I think we did get on genuinely with. We are friends now. 117 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:16,000 And and that's a that's that was a really good serendipitous thing. 118 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:25,000 But I think as a supervisor, even if you didn't have immediate chemistry with the student on an interpersonal level, 119 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:31,000 you obviously have responsibilities and a professional attitude that you need to have. 120 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:40,000 You can maybe talk about that as well later on, what you're saying about the kind of the interpersonal, but also. 121 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:45,000 You know how you work with someone professionally, I think it's really important because, yes, 122 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:54,000 in either lots of cases you do have that sort of interpersonal connection and you do kind of end up becoming not just, 123 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,000 you know, colleagues or supervisors supervisor, but friends. 124 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:02,000 But that's not always the case because it's not always the case with anybody we work with in our professional lives. 125 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:08,000 And just because you don't have that kind of platonic connection with someone doesn't 126 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:15,000 mean that you can't work very productively with them on a professional level. 127 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:27,000 Yeah, I think that's really nicely put, actually. I think yeah, I think that's my experience of sort of second hand experience of other colleagues. 128 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:34,000 Supervisory relationships is that on the whole I think As you suggested, the staff most often there is there. 129 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:42,000 I mean, it's it's quite a natural thing to evolve out of being so closely involved with someone's work and not just work, but their working life, 130 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:50,000 I suppose, over such a long period of time that there very often is a strong personal relationship that develops and the supportive relationship. 131 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:56,000 But it's not it's not a given. And even in cases where that didn't develop. 132 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:01,000 I think the important thing is that there's a strong professional relationship. 133 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:07,000 And one thing I'd add to that, actually, you were very kind earlier, Tom, to mention I come to. 134 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:12,000 We call them supervisions. I think that's probably a hangover from. 135 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:23,000 Where I did my undergraduate and various other bits of terminology, but meetings or kind of contact events or whatever you want to call them. 136 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:30,000 I think coming to them with ideas is something I would encourage all students to do when working with supervisors. 137 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:36,000 Tom and I both did. Alternate components of the same training. 138 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,000 I think didn't we Tom in the kind of the first couple of months. 139 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:43,000 So I had it as a hDE session on working with the supervisors, 140 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:51,000 which is now being developed into an excellent set of online resources put together by one of our PGRs. And there's an ECR or supervisors equivalent to that. 141 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:57,000 And I think one thing we both fully took away from the versions of that was that. 142 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:07,000 As a PhD student, you have a lot more responsibility for shaping your project than you may be used to from an undergraduate or master's perspective. 143 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,000 So I would always be. 144 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:20,000 Possibly slightly annoying in coming to Supervisions which is certainly the early ones with an actual agenda, which may be overkill. 145 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:24,000 But I would always come along with ideas of what I wanted to discuss because 146 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:31,000 I was very conscious from the start of the fact that my supervisor's time, 147 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:37,000 one of my supervisors in the plural, because of course, it's not just the one person supervision job is precious. 148 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:46,000 And I want to effectively milk my supervisors as efficiently as possible. 149 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:56,000 You've been working together for four years now on the PhD, but also on a postdoctoral project which we can perhaps come to later. 150 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:01,000 But how has the dynamic of the relationship changed in that time? 151 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:06,000 I'm interested in hearing from Tom first. Obviously, you know, you helped him. 152 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:11,000 Put the proposal together or gave him some advice and guidance, and he said that, 153 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:16,000 you know, because the research areas are so close, you didn't want to steer him too heavily. 154 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:24,000 But how have things. How have things shifted during that time as he's got more knowledgeable about the project? 155 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:30,000 I think. I think one thing I should have said probably earlier is that Edwards was my first student. 156 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:35,000 And so it's been a learning process for me. At the same time as I think it has to him. 157 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:43,000 So I think we both felt our way into the relationship in the in the first the first phase. 158 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:48,000 And nothing, as is probably natural as most PhD projects. 159 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:56,000 Initially, the initial stages were about Edward getting a sense of what he wanted to work on. 160 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:05,000 And so I probably had more of a. More of a directional 161 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:15,000 involvement At that stage, whereas I think as the project's gone on, particularly in the last year of it, 162 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:23,000 when a lot of work was coming from Edward in quite a short space of time. 163 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,000 It's been nice to see how he's developed his expertise. 164 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:36,000 And I've been I've had much more of a secondary role, I think, in terms of just responding to the kind of big ideas that he was bringing. 165 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:49,000 But I think probably that initial phase was interested to hear what Edward says to this was about helping him to 166 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:58,000 see the big ideas that he might pursue and that he might weigh what kind of direction he might take is his PhD. 167 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:06,000 Yeah, I think I said absolutely accurate description of what I think your role was that on? 168 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:11,000 Only I. Always found big ideas in some aspect of that quite scary. 169 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:20,000 So. I think certainly in the early stages, the thesis work quite well was Tom sort of pushing me to think about the big ideas 170 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:26,000 in response to me producing what was actually quite specific pieces of text. 171 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:35,000 So one of the things that we decided from the start of the thesis is that for pretty much every meeting that we'd have, 172 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,000 I would bring something to the table. Why? 173 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,000 I'd bring. I think we set it like fifteen hundred words of writing 174 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,000 Tom as a minimum something. like that. Yeah. 175 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:51,000 When we when we draftedd the supervision agreement, 176 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:58,000 which is something that requires of PhD students and their supervisors both to sign off on. 177 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:03,000 We said, okay, so if I produce this that will then leave something to lead us to, something to to discuss. 178 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:11,000 So looking back, I'm looking now at first piece of work I submitted to Tom, and it's slightly painful to read in some respects. 179 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:17,000 But I can see here how how your role, how you how how you saw your role fits into that. 180 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:25,000 Now, in terms of encouraging me to think about these bigger ideas, I'm watching something quite specific about certain texts. 181 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:33,000 And I remember you sort of encouraging me to think more broadly and to look at where I might go with all of that, 182 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,000 these ideas I was bringing to the table. 183 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:44,000 Whereas I think more recently that the latter stages of PhD, you've been much more assertive about the way you think you want to go next. 184 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:50,000 And that's been really great. That's interesting. Actually, I hadn't I hadn't realised that. 185 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,000 I mean, clearly you've been managing it, managing it very, very effectively. 186 00:19:54,000 --> 00:20:03,000 I think you always knew you always it's this is something that must vary a lot across from one student to another in that, 187 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:09,000 as you say, some students are more comfortable initially diving straight into the kind of the big questions. 188 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,000 And I think in your case, as you rightly said, 189 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:18,000 it was much more about working on focussed on smaller questions and then seeing what the implications of that were. 190 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:23,000 And I think those implications, I think you where I think you really developed over the. 191 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:29,000 PhD is in getting to grips with those implications and seeing them a lot a lot earlier. 192 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:37,000 Well, one of the one of the things that I was being told in, my Masters, is that I work best when I have a very specific question to answer. 193 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:45,000 And I think that's still true. But one of the things that I think supervision has allowed me to do is to develop 194 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:51,000 those specific questions into bigger ideas more quickly and more efficiently, 195 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,000 I suppose, if that's fair to say. 196 00:20:54,000 --> 00:21:01,000 I think the one thing for you that's been a consistent all the way through is probably the corpus that you thought you wanted to work on. 197 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,000 So that has stayed fairly stable, hasn't it, all the way through fairly. 198 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,000 I mean, it has hasn't really changed, I think. 199 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,000 But yeah the corpus itself has remained fairly similar. 200 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:25,000 I think the way I approach it, as you say, Tom, has changed, particularly after the the upgrade, which was a a challenging point in the PhD for me. 201 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:33,000 And I think one where I came to really appreciate your role in the supervisor's supervisor relationship. 202 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:40,000 And I think that's a really good Segue actually into thinking about that, because you've talked and you both talked a lot about the the you know, 203 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:49,000 the many, many positives and strengths in your intellectual, interpersonal, professional relationship as supervisor and supervisor. 204 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:53,000 But, of course, you know, no research degree is without its challenges. 205 00:21:53,000 --> 00:22:02,000 So, Edward, first, can you talk a little bit about the upgrade and why that was a why that was such a challenge? 206 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:09,000 And maybe, Tom, you can reflect on how you worked with Edward through that process. 207 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:14,000 So to answer that, I'm going to have to be a little bit specific about certain parts of my PhD. 208 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,000 And I'll I'll try and keep this as sort of brief as possible. 209 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:26,000 The first year of my PhD, I was basically thinking about a distinctive Anglo Norman. 210 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:38,000 Didactic, that is to say how what was special about French texts in medieval England and how they thought about and engaged with education. 211 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:52,000 And I'd spent the year producing effectively a lot of contextual material about the Latin background to a lot of these medieval texts and the. 212 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:58,000 Upgrade itself, which for me under the old system happened at the in the fourth term. 213 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:07,000 So sort of around the start of my second year rather than the end of the first, which is the norm nowadays was something of a shock, I think. 214 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:15,000 I think it's fair. Is it fair to say Tom was a bit of a shock for both of us? Oh, yeah, definitely a learning experience for me as well. 215 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:24,000 So effectively, what was pointed out to me, quite rightly, I think and this is something that we had both missed. 216 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:36,000 Was that if I'm going to ask the what's special about this block of texts that would require a significant amount of engagement with. 217 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:46,000 The texts that they'd need to be compared to so continental French texts and Latin texts, which was really several PhDs 218 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:55,000 And so it wasn't really something I could do in one PhD. Concomitant to that, I was also asked. 219 00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:01,000 OK. So you're doing a lot of close reading. This is this mysterious thing in the humanities we call close reading. 220 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:11,000 So what where are you going with this? And two phrases jumped out at me from the upgrade report. 221 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:18,000 The first one was the best backhanded compliment I've ever heard, which was Edward has done a significant amount of contextual work, 222 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,000 which will stand him in good stead for primary source material later in the thesis, 223 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:28,000 which is a very nice way of saying why is there no primary source work in this chapter that you've submitted? 224 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:38,000 And the second was Edward needs to develop a methodology that goes beyond close reading to encompass broader questions of X, Y and Z. 225 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:44,000 So those would be difficult things to hear. Tom, you were you were in the upgrades, I think, with me, weren't you? 226 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:50,000 You you'd. You were keen to come along and I did. 227 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:56,000 Can I. Can I ask what your experience was of the upgrade? I think so, yeah. 228 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:02,000 I wanted to be there. I was invited and asked if I wanted to be there. I wanted to sit in and 229 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:11,000 Edward was happy with that as well to learn because this was my first experience of having a student go through the upgrade. 230 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:17,000 And I think, yes, slightly chastening experience for me as well, because, I mean, 231 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:21,000 there was a there was good and bad mixed in in terms of the the feedback that you were getting there. 232 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:28,000 Right. I think it made me realise that both of us had been unclear on this. 233 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,000 I think is the supervisors responsibility in this case. 234 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:38,000 I should have known the process better, but I think there are some things you learn just through going going through them and experiencing them. 235 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,000 I should have been clearer about what the upgrade wanted. 236 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:48,000 So the one thing I learnt from listening to the examiners in the conversation they were having with you, Edward, 237 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:58,000 was that what they really wanted to see was a sign of how you argued and what kind of what 238 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,000 kind of thesis in the literal sense of that word you were building and what kind of argument, 239 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,000 overarching argument you you're building? And I realised that that was something that we hadn't because we'd focus so much on 240 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:13,000 getting you the contextual knowledge and getting you a mastery of the of the whole area. 241 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:19,000 We hadn't really done enough on that. I think what I learnt was some I talked a bit about how great it's been, 242 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,000 see Edward becoming more confident as he's developed his expertise through the thesis. 243 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:29,000 I think it made me a little bit more confident subsequently about my roles. 244 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,000 So I mentioned earlier that you kind of as a supervisor, 245 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:38,000 I think you need to step stand back and make sure that you don't take ownership in any sense of the of the project, 246 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:43,000 that there is a balance to strike where sometimes you do need to be a little bit more interventionist. 247 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:52,000 And I think possibly in that first year of our relationship, I was probably standing back too much, maybe I think or not one. 248 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,000 I was very conscious of not wanting to interfere with your voice. 249 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,000 Edward and your your way of approaching your intellectual. 250 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:08,000 And I think that's still crucial. But I think also, having gone through the viva sorry, the upgrade, 251 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:13,000 Viva made me more confident probably about pointing out where think if you remember, 252 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:20,000 one of the things that they mentioned was that quite a lot of things were in the passive or you were you were kind 253 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:26,000 of presenting other scholars views rather than taking ownership yourself off of the topic you were talking about. 254 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:32,000 And so pushing you a little bit more to to do that in response to those to those comments. 255 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:37,000 I think that that probably became a little bit more part of what I was doing subsequent to that. 256 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:45,000 And this is something which you then quite rightly began to point out more, I think, in my writing. 257 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:55,000 My tendency in when I write to hide behind authorities and to be a little bit too deferential on occasion, 258 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,000 I think using quotation where you could actually say things in your own words. 259 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:06,000 So we'd have situations when we were I'd be saying, oh, there's a possible way of why the quotation marks here, you know? 260 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:14,000 Couldn't you just say that in your own words? Yes. Yep. Which might sound like a really, really specific point to make. 261 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:21,000 But he actually fitted into a broader development, I think, in terms of how I argued it was a really important steppingstone. 262 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,000 I disagree about that being a specific thing. 263 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:33,000 I think that that is part of the process of learning to be an independent scholar and learning to value your contribution and your voice, 264 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:38,000 because that process is about having. 265 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:43,000 The confidence to articulate that in your own words, rather than always being deferential and referring to others. 266 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:50,000 I think that's part of the a part of the process and a part of the journey. 267 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,000 you're trying to work out where you are. I can relate to the fields. 268 00:28:54,000 --> 00:29:01,000 And so some PGRs are going to be very confident, being very comfortable, being assertive from the off and others are not. 269 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:06,000 And you know, those who are very assertive, they may need to tone it down slightly. 270 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:13,000 And those who are not assertive enough, they may need to learn to turn it up. It's a very it's really fine balance. 271 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:20,000 Really fine balance. And in the in the sort of weeks or months following the the upgrade, 272 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:28,000 I think there were probably two points in the PhD the where I was really struggling. 273 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:33,000 I think this is probably one of them. 274 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:42,000 Sad to say, my way out of that eventually was to effectively do the same thing that I'd done in my first year, 275 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,000 which was just to pick a text and write something on it. 276 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:55,000 Except this time we were thinking a lot more about the the broader implications of it, in particular the focus that the thesis started to take. 277 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,000 And this was a suggestion from you, 278 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:03,000 which I bought into very enthusiastically because I realised it fitted very well with what I like to talk about anyway, 279 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:14,000 was that we focus less on what's special about Ango Norman didactic texts and more about the environment in which they were conceived and used. 280 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,000 Again, getting slightly technical here. 281 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:24,000 One of the really cool things about the work that Tom and I both do now actually on the same project is that medieval England is multilingual. 282 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:34,000 And this is something that does distinguish it from what we now call the hexagons as a continental fault in that sense. 283 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,000 So English is working with French and with Latin and with other minority languages. 284 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:43,000 And this is something that we came to realise should be a much more important part of the thesis. 285 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:48,000 And that's, I think, how we got out of that first sort of caught my eye. 286 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:54,000 And I think Tom played a very important role there in reminding me of these big, big questions that I had to consider. 287 00:30:54,000 --> 00:31:04,000 So I think it's some that this is really common thing for these students to experience at some point during the whole process, 288 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,000 a period of writer's block or of loss of confidence. There are potential knock backs. 289 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:13,000 So in Edward's case, it was the upgrade viva. For other people, it'll be different moments. 290 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:19,000 And it's really, I think is quite a challenge as a supervisor at that point, because your heart goes out to them. 291 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:28,000 But then once again, we've talked about that balance of giving, giving space for the student to find their feet again, 292 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:34,000 but equally not allowing them to feel like they're abandoned or that they're on their own with it. 293 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,000 And and so I think in Edward's case, 294 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:45,000 coming back to writing just a little bit on something focussed was a was a very good way of getting back into getting back into the saddle. 295 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:56,000 I. But I've had yeah. I'm aware of this as a general point, that if you as a supervisor, you have a student who's. 296 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,000 Struggling to write something, then you sort of don't want to. 297 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:07,000 You kind of, yeah, you want to try and get the right amount of of contact because you don't want to do it. 298 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:17,000 Translate into pressure from another source. But at the same time, I think you do need to maintain an active role in that stage as well. 299 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:28,000 And I think the takeaway for me from that period, this is kind of middle end of my second year, actually, to take away from me the. 300 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:35,000 Was very much one of Tom being there when I needed him to be. 301 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:43,000 I think this was the thing. At no point I think did the Tom have to step in and say, you've gone quiet. 302 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:50,000 You know how you know. Do you want to meet at some point? 303 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:55,000 But Tom did know when I was writingsomething he'd need to give me sometimes a little bit of space. 304 00:32:55,000 --> 00:33:05,000 And we balanced that, I think, quite well. I remember one one email I received which legitimately made me. 305 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:12,000 weep a little bit in the office. I think Tom described me is writing beautifully. 306 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:22,000 Was the word that you use, the phrase you use Tom. And by that, which was genuinely slightly emotional. 307 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:28,000 But it was that sort of that was that just that moment of your life. 308 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:36,000 You've got this. While I was struggling, that was very much appreciated. 309 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:42,000 As we're talking about writing, I think it would be useful to have a have a quick chat about. 310 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:48,000 Feedback on written work, because it's such a fundamental part of the research degree process, 311 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:54,000 because, of course, in the end what you're examined on is the thesis and the viva on the thesis. 312 00:33:54,000 --> 00:34:03,000 So I wonder if you could say a little bit about how you managed that, how you managed that process of. 313 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:11,000 I guess from Tom's perspective how you gave feedback on the writing and how you approached it and then from Edward's perspective, 314 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:19,000 how you kind of dealt with that and responded to that. So I think with feedback. 315 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:25,000 Something the supervisors need to bear in mind and maybe that students need to bear in mind when reading feedback 316 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:35,000 is the effect of written the written format in relation to feedback that you can give through to the voice, 317 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:41,000 because there's a there are all sorts of things we do when we face to face it. Someone that attenuate criticism, 318 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:49,000 that make it easier is to make suggestions for improvement without coming across painfully and sometimes with written feedback. 319 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,000 I'm aware of this when I mark undergraduate work. 320 00:34:52,000 --> 00:35:02,000 When I comment on these students work and when I write do review reports or what, when I write book reviews or when I do reports, submissions, 321 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:10,000 article submissions to journals across all of that, you can come across very aggressively, sometimes very dismissively, if you're not careful. 322 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:15,000 And I think if you do, probably if you do get a comment that is uncomfortable, 323 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:23,000 it's worth bearing in mind as a student that there may be just a slight infelicities of tone there. 324 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:31,000 Hopefully the key thing is that the feedback is constructive and that means for me, it means engaging both on point of detail. 325 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:38,000 As I read through as a kind of interested reader, really, I sort of I'm having a conversation with the with the text on the page, 326 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,000 I guess, but then also engaging with those bigger questions that we talked about. 327 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:48,000 So trying to put one's finger on where there's an implication that's not being teased out. 328 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:55,000 Was that something that can go further productively? So I think that's those two levels on which you work. 329 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,000 One is that the level of detail on the other is the level of implications and 330 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:07,000 consequences way you want to try and help the student to see where they could go further. 331 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:15,000 I would add, actually, that it is possible to inject some warmth into feedback for PDG arse, 332 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:23,000 and I think that the work that Thomas is a very good example of that in that it was feedback rather than correction. 333 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:30,000 So I would occasionally get a little note along the lines of, oh, I haven't seen this exclamation mark. 334 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:35,000 If there was an article I'd come across the previous week that just been published, for example, I hasten to add. 335 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,000 That was fantastically rare. 336 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:51,000 But I'd also get things like nice or good analysis here, you know, which is a way of conveying that warmth and that interest in your project. 337 00:36:51,000 --> 00:37:03,000 I think. The question about the mitigation and not not coming across too harshly is one that the supervision meeting itself can really help with. 338 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,000 Yes. So I think we varied it, didn't we, Tom? 339 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,000 Sometimes you'd send me feedback ahead of a session. Sometimes you do it in the session. 340 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:15,000 It depended on how punctual I was in getting the work to you. 341 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:24,000 Probably how busy I was. No, no, no. I vaguely remember sending you, like, 10000 words on a Wednesday and that Friday was the meeting. 342 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,000 So I don't know. I'd always if I did that. 343 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:33,000 I'd say, you know, here's a bit to focus on if, you know, including the highly likely event that I'm being unrealistic or or, 344 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:42,000 you know, do you want to delay by a week or something like that. But there was there was real warm for thinking in your comments. 345 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:49,000 We also varied, I think, between print and PDF in terms of how we did it. 346 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:58,000 Obviously, in terms of the last few months, the thesis when when we weren't seeing each other in person because of covic, we went to PDF. 347 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:03,000 But I think you tended to quite like printing out and writing, didn't you, Tom? 348 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,000 Yes. That's I think that's just a personal personal preference. 349 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:14,000 Yeah, I think it's one of these things that might be worth for PhD students sort of seeing what they what they like as well, 350 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:22,000 since it works quite well for me as well to the benefit I have of that sort of thing was I then had to take away from I then go away. 351 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,000 You usually go a cup of tea, sit down and just read it all again. 352 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:32,000 And then when I was revising that piece of work a bit later, I'd go through with a massive marker 353 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:41,000 And you put a big tick through the comments. I did. Then if I ever told you that you say the other thing I want to say is that it might be 354 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:46,000 easy to forget that you think of your supervisor as someone who's an expert in that field. 355 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:51,000 You hope that they are. But that doesn't mean that they know everything, and particularly they don't necessarily know everything about your project. 356 00:38:51,000 --> 00:39:01,000 And one of the benefits of supervision for the supervisor is that it's genuinely interesting and exciting to follow someone else's project, 357 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:06,000 to follow these ideas that are coming at you and that you're getting a lot from intellectually as well. 358 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:12,000 Yes, so. It does sound like it's been an incredibly fruitful relationship intellectually and obviously, you know, it's continued. 359 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:18,000 You submitted your thesis and Viva'd got minor corrections and submitted those and are just waiting to hear. 360 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,000 Is that right? Still waiting to hear. That's right. 361 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:27,000 And, you know, you've been working together already for, you know, the last part of the PhD on a of projects. 362 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:32,000 So, you know, you don't continue those relationships if they're not intellectually fruitful. 363 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:38,000 No. I want to say I've been I'm. But they did mention at the start of this podcast my worries about giving one supervisor envy. 364 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,000 I do want to apologise because I did get incredibly fortunate, 365 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:48,000 not just to be able to work with Tom, but also in the fact that he wanted to keep working with me. 366 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:55,000 And in fact, that a particular project came along and got funding at the moment when I was finishing 367 00:39:55,000 --> 00:40:00,000 up my PhD and that because we were so closely aligned in terms of what we worked on. 368 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:06,000 I was an eligible candidate for that position. I wonder what you had to say about that, Tom. 369 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:11,000 So I think it was yeah, it was serendipitous that this project got funded at the point when it did. 370 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,000 Ed is too modest to say this, but he wasn't just eligible. 371 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:22,000 He was an ideal candidate for that role because of the skill set that he had, because I knew that we had this good working relationship. 372 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:33,000 So I remember my PhD supervisor, former PhD supervisor, who was talking to me about this project saying, well, it would. 373 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,000 It's really important if you're looking for a research associate to think about 374 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:41,000 the working relationship and the fact that Edward and I already knew each other, 375 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:48,000 already had this this connection and an established positive way working meant that 376 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:53,000 it was really perfect to be able to interview and appoint him for that post. 377 00:40:53,000 --> 00:41:01,000 One thing that that has been interesting, actually, in this this phase now is thinking about making sure that it's not just the phd 378 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,000 supervisors supervisor relationship anymore is we've moved beyond that now. 379 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:10,000 We're colleagues. So that's been an interesting evolution as well. Yeah, it really has. 380 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:17,000 I think Tom is the P.I. on the project and I'm the RD on the project. 381 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:24,000 Tom, did I say some acronyms there that I'll just explain for our listeners just in case P I is principal investigator, RS is Research associate. 382 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:30,000 Yes. Tom did make a point about the difference between research assistant and research associate at the start of this position. 383 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:41,000 I think it's a valid one. I think this is an extension of the that the PhD the relationship in that Tom, 384 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:46,000 while not technically my boss, is the person that I'm accountable to on a day to day basis. 385 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:55,000 But the way that the project is set up, there's definitely a difference in terms of some of the technical skills. 386 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,000 I was very fortunate to have some experience in that respect. 387 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:06,000 So the discussions that Tom and I have had in certain areas are very collegiate, more so certainly than at the start of the PhD 388 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:16,000 our discussions were around e Anglo Norman didacticism, hard to say that, you'd have thought I;d have practise after four years. 389 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:22,000 So I guess to wrap up what I'm thinking would be useful is is just, you know, 390 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:30,000 through the process of this supervisory relationship to Tom, you said it was, you know, and it was your first p h d student. 391 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,000 So you kind of both new to either side of this. 392 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:44,000 I wondered if you had any reflections or advice for other supervisors or supervises about what makes it kind of productive, 393 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:51,000 intellectually exciting, good kind of professional supervisory relationship. 394 00:42:51,000 --> 00:43:00,000 Can I go first here for for supervises? I've heard a lot of discussion about what makes. 395 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:06,000 A good environment for these student over the last few years. 396 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:15,000 And I think that from the discussions that I've heard, the most important thing is not effective marketing. 397 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:21,000 It's not. Advertising certain resources. 398 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:26,000 It's not X, Y or Z, which you can you can list off very neatly and easily. 399 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:31,000 I think it's something more ephemeral than that. 400 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:42,000 It's the idea of finding a supervisor who genuinely cares about you as a person, about what you're doing and about your project as well. 401 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:47,000 Any amount of. Advertising about Library resources. 402 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:55,000 Any amount of boasting about research rankings will fall by the wayside. 403 00:43:55,000 --> 00:44:04,000 If the relationship with your supervisor doesn't work and I've been very fortunate in finding a relationship that does. 404 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,000 It was actually one that was put onto me by my undergraduate supervisor, who, 405 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,000 when I mentioned your the opportunity of working with Tom, specifically went. 406 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:17,000 Yes, that one. That one. Do that one. Do it now. But. 407 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:27,000 I think if you get a sense that a potential supervisor is someone that you will work with and get on with. 408 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:34,000 Go with your gut there for current PGRs . I'd extend that and say I appreciate your supervisors and what they do. 409 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:42,000 There's a lot of training available through the doctoral college in managing relationships with supervisors, and I would encourage you to do that. 410 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:53,000 It's certainly helped me way back at the start of the thesis and also through the thesis as well to appreciate what exactly. 411 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:59,000 The role of supervisor is and what you can reasonably and should not expect. 412 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:10,000 That was supervisor. What about you Tom? I think I'm probably going to repeat a fair bit of someone's fair bit of what I've been saying. 413 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:16,000 I think from supervisor's point of view, remember that each project and each student is different. 414 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:24,000 And that's part of the joy of supervision, because you get to be involved in all these different ways of working to get 415 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:30,000 that balance of being available without being overbearing and then enjoy it. 416 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:40,000 Thank you so much to Edward and Tom for taking the time to have a really rich and in-depth discussion with me about their supervisory relationship. 417 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:49,000 And I think it's been really fascinating to hear them talk about those kind of initial emails that they exchanged 418 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:56,000 before Edward even applied right through to now working together as colleagues on the postdoctoral project. 419 00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:28,490 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to, like, rate and subscribe and join me next time where I'll be talking to someone else about researchers, development, and everything in between!    

In this episode I talk to a range of PGRs from the University of Exeter about their experience of the upgrade process, where student's progress is assessed to enable a change in registration from MPhil to PhD. Here they share what the upgrade involved, how they prepared and what their upgrade viva or presentation was like. This episode features: Jo Sutherst, PGR in Art History and Visual Culture. You can follow Jo on twitter @JoSutherst. Steve Burrows, PGR in Marine Biology. You can follow Steve on twitter @Steve_D_Burrows. Merve Mollaahmetoglu, PGR in Psychology. You can follow Merve on twitter @mervemolla, and listen to her podcast PhD: addicted to research Aoife Maher, PGR in the Centre for Rural Policy. If you are preparing for your upgrade, you may find these blog posts useful: Surviving your PhD Upgrade – Merve Mollaahmetolgu Top 40 Potential Viva Questions Preparing for a Virtual Upgrade – Issy Sawkins PhD Chat My PhD Upgrade Experience – Debbie Kinsey We will be running a question and answer panel for University of Exeter PGRs on Wednesday 24th February at 2pm. You can book your place on My Career Zone. You can access the University of Exeter policy on the Upgrade, and the temporary policy for COVID-19. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)  Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License  http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/    Podcast Transcript   1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Hello and welcome to R, D and the In-betweens. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:32,000 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,000 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens. 4 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:45,000 For this episode, I'm gonna be talking to three of our PGRs at the University of Exeter about the process that at Exeter we call the upgrade. 5 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:52,000 I've heard it variously called the transfer. The confirmation, whatever your university calls it, 6 00:00:52,000 --> 00:01:02,000 it's the process through which your candidacy or your status is upgraded from MPhil to PhD or insert other acronyms here, 7 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:07,000 depending on what kind of research degree programme you're on. Before we start, 8 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:15,000 I want to just say the caveat to say obviously the advice being given in this episode is very specific to the processes at the University of Exeter. 9 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:24,000 And you should absolutely if you're listening from other institutions, go and find out more about the specifics of the processes at your institution. 10 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:29,000 Although there may be similarities with how we do this at Exeter to there will inevitably be differences. 11 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:34,000 And in fact, as you'll see throughout this episode, there are even differences within the university, 12 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:41,000 depending on the college and discipline that you're in. And without further ado, I'm going to hand over to our PGRs. 13 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:47,000 First up, we've got Jo Sutherst. Jo's been on the podcast before talking about being a distance based researcher. 14 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:54,000 And Jo is based in the Department of Art, History and Visual Culture in the College of Humanities. 15 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:59,000 So can you tell me a little bit about the process of preparing for the upgrade? 16 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:08,000 So for my upgrade, I had to submit five pieces of work in advance, which was a time plan of a page, 17 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:16,000 an abstract, thesis chapter plan, a project proposal and a writing sample of between five and six thousand words. 18 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:22,000 Then once those have been submitted and had a good look at, then there was the upgrade viva. 19 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:27,000 So for me, I started work on these things really early. 20 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:32,000 So my initial deadline was the beginning of May 2020. 21 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:38,000 It did subsequently move slightly because of the pandemic. 22 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,000 So I started back in December, started to put these documents together, 23 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:52,000 and I had regular meetings with my supervisors and I regularly submitted work to them to have a look at and to critique and to give feedback on. 24 00:02:52,000 --> 00:03:01,000 And then I also as part of my preparation, spoke to people, particularly in things like shut up and write about what their experiences have been, 25 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:07,000 what kind of things people were trying to do or having to do, and how they were finding it, 26 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:15,000 how they prepared particularly for the upgrade over what they did to prepare for that and ask lots of questions. 27 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:22,000 And I think the important thing about the upgrade preparation is that. 28 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:31,000 You try to or I tried initially to fit myself into a box that I only did to look a particular way, and a few of us fell into that trap, 29 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:37,000 particularly things like the time plan and the chapter plan, because at the end of the day, your work's unique. 30 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:45,000 So it needs to fit your project and not what you think is a checklist of what needs to be in each of those items. 31 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:55,000 So it was essentially that the main thing is starting early and just keeping on top of regular submissions and regular feedback. 32 00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:01,000 Thanks so much, Jo. That's a really helpful overview of how you prepared for your upgrade. 33 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:08,000 So now could you tell me a little bit about the upgrade itself? 34 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:16,000 Yeah. So I'm from humanities, from art history, and visual culture. And each of us, each discipline has its own requirements. 35 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:21,000 So the biggest part of the upgrade. The upgrade for myself. 36 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:25,000 Was the writing sample between five and six thousand words. 37 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:31,000 Although I submitted nearly six and a half thousand words, because if I had cut it, it just didn't make sense. 38 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:37,000 So I think you just have to realise that that's a guideline for the number of words, and that's quite important. 39 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:41,000 It's actually a really, really supportive process, 40 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:48,000 although at the time you think it's quite stressful and if you've never done anything like it before, it can feel really stressful. 41 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:57,000 Add into that lockdown pandemic. It all comes to feel like a really big task, but actually it's really supportive. 42 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,000 And it's really good to see your whole PhD laid out in front of you. 43 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:08,000 The plans that you had at the start actually down on paper and just see it all start to come together. 44 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:17,000 And it's absolutely amazing to talk through your plans, your work, your research questions, the stuff that you've already written. 45 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:25,000 So good to talk to other people, other academics who'll give you a completely different viewpoint on a particular point or say to you, 46 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:30,000 like, in my case it was they picked out certain things that got these things are really key. 47 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:35,000 They're really unique and they're really exciting. And they're things that I thought was exciting. 48 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:42,000 But you sort of think you need to go a particular way as well at parts. But to have someone else go, you know, that bit that that's a nugget. 49 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,000 You know, that's really, really good. 50 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:55,000 It's so good for your confidence and actually is quite an exciting and really supportive, great, fantastic process. 51 00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:00,000 But before you get there, you think, oh, my goodness, it's really stressful. 52 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:09,000 Thanks, Jo. So next, that we're going to take a completely different perspective or certainly in terms of discipline on the upgrade process. 53 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:16,000 We're going to hear from Steve Burrows. Steve is a PGR in bio sciences in our College of Life and Environmental Sciences. 54 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:23,000 So, Steve, how did you prepared for your upgrade? The main part, obviously, was the upgrade document. 55 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:31,000 So that was the general outline and background of my projects subject. 56 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:36,000 And then an outline of my plan thesis structure. 57 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:44,000 So it's just going through the ins and outs of what methods that was used in, why I was using them, 58 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:56,000 and what the four chapters that I hadn't completed, what I had planned and why I was doing about it, where it was basically. 59 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:04,000 And so for the. So I had to prepare a documents that prepared. 60 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:12,000 I think it was a 25 minute PowerPoint presentation that I had to send to them beforehand. 61 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:21,000 And that was a basic like basically going through the content of the upgrade documents. 62 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:26,000 And then there was the gantt chart. So that was like a planned timeline for the project. 63 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:34,000 So what I plan to deliver at what times throughout the PhD 64 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:41,000 Thanks, Steve. And what about the upgrade and the upgrade, viva itself? Yes, 65 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:47,000 So it was kind of the most stressful part was kind of a build up to those. 66 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:52,000 So you prepared this document for such an amount of time and you kind of build up in your head. 67 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:57,000 There's this great milestone that's coming up. And so it gets a little better. 68 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:04,000 It's a little bit like anxiety inducing. And it's kind of that's kind of the worst bit. 69 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:11,000 And then it happens. And then you, as you're going through the talk with the assessors, 70 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:16,000 it turns in to more like more of a conversation after you do the actual presentation. 71 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:24,000 It's a lot more conversational and you realise that they're you know, at least in my experience, it was very constructive. 72 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:37,000 And I definitely gained a lot from it. But in terms of preparing for the actual presentation itself, a lot of my preparation. 73 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:42,000 Well, I mean, outside, just making sure that I knew everything. 74 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:48,000 Well, as much as I could about the background and the different methods and techniques that I was using, 75 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:54,000 the most beneficial thing for me preparing was actually explained like going through the 76 00:08:54,000 --> 00:09:01,000 presentation and having a conversation with people that weren't necessarily in my field 77 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:07,000 So whether that was other PhDs or postdocs, that would just listen to me. 78 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:12,000 And. After it's after I gave them the presentation, 79 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:21,000 they'd have different questions and there'd be there'd be a few curveballs and that I wouldn't necessarily be able to predict myself. 80 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:29,000 And so it kind of helped me become. It helps you become a little bit more adaptable kind of which 81 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:40,000 Yeah, I find that really useful. And this or any particular advice you give anyone who's got the upgrade coming up? 82 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:41,000 So like I said before, 83 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:52,000 that the main advice would be just to go through that process with friends or colleagues not necessarily in your fields or maybe like tangent, 84 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:58,000 like somewhat connected, but not directly. And they'll. 85 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:05,000 Least it was my experience they'd kind of produce situations that you can learn from 86 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:11,000 that are going to be similar to what you're going to come across in the upgrade 87 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:23,000 For the things that I'd recommend being OK with saying that you don't know something that was really that was really liberating, 88 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:28,000 liberating in a way because it just it just takes the stress off a little bit. 89 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:36,000 You know, you're only human. You're a student still and you're still you know, you're still learning. 90 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:43,000 And so it's important to know that it's OK to say that you don't know that the ceiling is not going to crash in on you. 91 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,000 If you do, you know, it's not the end of the world. I didn't understand. 92 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:54,000 And it was like, say, my experience was very constructive and there was very much okay with hearing that. 93 00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:02,000 I think I've said it once or twice. And it's, you know, it's completely okay to say that. 94 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:13,000 Another tip probably I have is if. Because it's so I talked about the anxiety builds up before you go into the upgrade 95 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,000 And I'm quite an anxious person as it is. 96 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:28,000 One thing I would recommend is it's kind of just look after your own well-being beforehand and understanding that the anxiety it. 97 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:35,000 You know, it it does play a part in, you know. Quotation marks like performance on the day. 98 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:46,000 So taken up things like meditation and things like that, I found very beneficial to dealing with those sorts of situations, throughout the PhD as well. 99 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:54,000 So I can highly recommend that. And it's really there's loads of different apps and stuff like that that you can 100 00:11:54,000 --> 00:12:00,000 download and get into it quite easily if you got the student version of Spotify. 101 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:05,000 And I'm pretty sure you get the Headspace app free with that. 102 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:15,000 I can't recommend that enough if anyone's. If that resonates with anyone else. 103 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:22,000 Next, we have Merve Mollaahmetoglu   who is a PGR in psychology, talking about her experience of preparing for the upgrade. 104 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:27,000 It must have been about a year ago. I think. I started preparing for it. 105 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:34,000 Yes. For me, it was sort of thinking about the upgrade report, which was the biggest part of the process in my case. 106 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:41,000 So now, you know, it's different requirements for different disciplines, but in psychology and probably other STEM disciplines as well. 107 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:47,000 The report is quite an important part and it involves writing a literature review. 108 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:55,000 And usually you'll be asked to write up about an empirical study and its results, at least one study. 109 00:12:55,000 --> 00:13:03,000 And then also talking about future plans. I think that was a key part of the preparation of the upgrade reports. 110 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:11,000 And I worked closely with my supervisor to work on a report, basically writing up the results of my study, 111 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:19,000 writing a literature review and thinking about future studies and sort of what's stage. 112 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:24,000 So I had some other studies that I was working on, but that weren't completed. I was kind of writing up about. 113 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:29,000 Okay, so when do I expect to complete this? What stage am I at 114 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:34,000 And I think that was a really useful thing to include because it shows that you're 115 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:41,000 thinking about all these different stages and you have a clear plan for going forward. 116 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:46,000 So what did the upgrade process actually involve for you in psychology? What did you have to submit? 117 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,000 And did you have a viva? Yes, of course. 118 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:57,000 As I said, the upgrade involved from me writing a report which consisted of a literature review, at least one. 119 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:05,000 empirical study and talking about future studies. I think it was meant to be about 10000 words at the time, roughly about that. 120 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,000 And then I also had a viva a mini viva 121 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:13,000 They call it. Which sort of lasted about, I think up to an hour. 122 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:23,000 And it was sort of, you know, talking about your reports, asking you questions about why you chose that specific area of research, 123 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:31,000 you know, justifications or research questions, any clarifications of methodological considerations. 124 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,000 And then discussing plans for future studies. 125 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:44,000 And for me, but I think in most cases, it also involves the examiners giving you a bit of feedback about what you should be doing next. 126 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:52,000 You know, in some cases, they might say, oh, you know, we think that you should really focus on X, Y, Z. 127 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:59,000 In my case, they said, you know, it might be best for you to focus on writing up your studies for publication. 128 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:06,000 You know, maybe rather than doing any more studies, because we sort of had plans for a couple of studies in place already. 129 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:12,000 So that was one of the recommendations from my upgrades in terms of, you know, going forward, with my PhD 130 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:18,000 Yeah. That sounds like a really supportive and fruitful process. 131 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:26,000 Is there anything that you wish you knew before you started preparing for the upgrade or worrying about it? 132 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:36,000 Is there anything that I wish I knew? But I think in terms of tips, I would say, you know, the upgrade sounds sounds like a scary thing. 133 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:45,000 It's one of the first milestones of a PhD. They say it might be quite daunting, but actually it's not something that's there to catch you out. 134 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:56,000 But it is that sort of you know, if there are any problems early on in your PhD about your studies or, you know, anything to do with, you know, 135 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,000 your working relationship with your supervisors, you know, 136 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:05,000 it's sort of an opportunity to highlight these issues and figure out how you can address them. 137 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:11,000 So, you know, I wouldn't necessarily worry if things are not necessarily going well with your PhD. 138 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:20,000 It doesn't mean that the upgrade will be and will be a bad process as it will be a process where you can highlight any of those issues. 139 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:28,000 And the examiners, you know, you can sort of work with the examiners and your supervisors to come up with a plan of how to address, 140 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:35,000 you know, how to address any issues and how you can progress on with with the PhD basically. 141 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,000 So, you know, even if you submitted a report and, you know, 142 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:47,000 the outcome could be that they ask you to resubmit the upgrade report with some changes, that's not necessarily a negative outcome per se 143 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:54,000 So, you know, I would just say it's sort of an opportunity to to discuss your research, talk about your research and to improve it. 144 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:59,000 So I would sort of remind people that it's a helpful process for you. 145 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:04,000 It's not a process to punish you or anything. 146 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:10,000 Finally, we have a Aoife Maher  who is a PGRin the Centre for Rural Policy. 147 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,000 So Aoife. Can you tell me a bit about how you prepared for your upgrade? Sure. 148 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:25,000 So my upgrade was originally scheduled for January 2021 and I made the decision to up the amount of hours. 149 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:33,000 I'm doing something as I'm doing my PhD part time and it was certainly moving forward, which I felt quite frightening, quite dramatic. 150 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:46,000 So it was suddenly a real focus of my mind. So obviously there was a real back and forth between myself and my supervisory team to get my submission 151 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:53,000 into shape where we were all happy with that and being a good reflection of where I got to so far. 152 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,000 And so that was quite a lot of. 153 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:05,000 Yeah, tinkering with that and making sure I was really comfortable with the content and where things I had included or hadn't included. 154 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:11,000 And I was just sort of comfortable with the literature around as well to know 155 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:18,000 why certain things were included and were important and why things weren't. 156 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:27,000 I also when I was really knuckling down to prepare for the actual day, I found a really good blog by the Open University. 157 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:33,000 And they had listed four questions for people who were preparing for their vivas 158 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:40,000 And so I use those to try and prepare for the upgrade interview, even though some of them weren't applicable, obviously, because I did not work. 159 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:50,000 But it really helped me to sort of focus on what sort of questions I should be thinking about and what sort of questions I might be asked. 160 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:57,000 I also reread my submission for the upgrade viva the many, 161 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:05,000 many times and tried to persuade anyone that I needed to read it and talk to me about it, even if they didn't know anything about it. 162 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,000 But that was still really helpful. 163 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:18,000 Still points out some of areas or places where I haven't been clear enough in what I was explaining, what I was doing. 164 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:28,000 And then I suppose the other things I did to prepare were practical so I printed out, the submission so I had it to hand, I could write notes on it. 165 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:35,000 And also, I was kind of because I did my upgrade on Zoom, I could cheat a bit 166 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:43,000 And I had a little cheat sheet of all the key things that I wanted to talk about in the upgrade meeting, which I'm not sure I should really admit to. 167 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:50,000 But I think in the in the spirit of sharing my fellow PhD students, that was really helpful to just have like keywords. 168 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:57,000 I wanted to make sure I talked about when I was talking about my actually my plan to do my research. 169 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:10,000 And what was the upgrade itself like? So my upgrade, I was invited to an interview with a panel from my department. 170 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:18,000 And it was all an internal colleagues who were carrying out my upgrade interview. 171 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:26,000 Which was nice as two of them. I knew well, actually met in person before the pandemic. 172 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:31,000 And one person who I didn't know well, but who was also in the department. 173 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,000 Really nice. So that was. Yeah. 174 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:41,000 Quite comforting. And then the other thing was, I didn't have to prepare a presentation or anything like that, 175 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:51,000 which I think at this stage was quite helpful because that meant we could just get straight into talking about the documents that I'd submitted. 176 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:57,000 So I submitted a project plan and 8000 words. 177 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:06,000 So for some people, that might have been a literature review that later bits of it would end up all over that final thesis. 178 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:20,000 But because of how my initial stages of research has all been affected by the pandemic, I'd tried to present a full chapter methodology chapter. 179 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:27,000 So quite a lot of discussion than I thought would be focussed on that chapter. 180 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:31,000 Actually, I think that the discussion, which was really helpful, 181 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:41,000 I think more of it was on how I'm going to move forward and how I'm going to tackle my research next. 182 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,000 Yeah, I found the whole process, even though I've been really nervous about it. 183 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:53,000 I found a really supportive and challenging but in a in and really helpful way. 184 00:21:53,000 --> 00:22:07,000 So colleagues on my panel gave me lots of ideas of other literature to look at that might help and might form part of my conceptual framework. 185 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:14,000 And we also talked a lot about my research and how to deal with. 186 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:22,000 So as part of my research, I'm trying to work out why some people don't want to grow horticultural crops. 187 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:30,000 Some people who are existing farmers and we talked a lot about the problems of exploring a negative in research, 188 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:39,000 and it felt really helpful to sort of be able to brainstorm some of those issues and be able to acknowledge that. 189 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,000 And for some of these issues, I don't have all the answers now, but that's right. 190 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:49,000 And I can see where the research will lead me. So that was really helpful. 191 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:55,000 And I also was told that I'm trying to do too much in my PhD, which I know is a very common theme. 192 00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:00,000 So I'm going to take that on board as well. 193 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:09,000 Yeah, even though it was a nerve wracking experience ends up being much more supportive and like, really enlightening process. 194 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,000 And yeah, I suppose I hadn't been anticipating that. 195 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:22,000 So I was quite keen to come on and talk to you about how you how beneficial I found the process really to encourage other people about to go through. 196 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,000 It doesn't have to be a frightening, challenging experience. 197 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:31,000 It can be a positive, challenging experience. Thank you so much to Jo 198 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:36,000 Steve Merve and Aoife for sharing their experiences with me for this podcast. 199 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:41,000 Hopefully it's given you a little bit of insight into what the upgrade is like. 200 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:48,000 And also a little bit of reassurance that this is a supportive process that's going to really help you move forward with your research. 201 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,000 A couple of blog posts and things have been mentioned in the episode. 202 00:23:52,000 --> 00:24:00,000 I'm going to link those in the show notes and also a booking link for the question and answer panel that I'm running on preparing for your upgrade. 203 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:05,000 On Wednesday, the 24th of February for University of Exeter PGRs 204 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:10,000 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me. 205 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:37,546 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.    

In the first episode of 2021 I continue my conversation with Sport and Health Sciences PGR Ellie Hassan, discussing the impact of Covid19 on her research, and the changes she has had to make to her data collection. If anyone else is interested in talking to me about how they've had to change their project due to the impact of Covid19, please get in touch with me on twitter @Preece_Kelly.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Hello and welcome, to R, D And the in betweens. I'm your host, Kelly Preece. 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:31,000 And every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:37,000 Hello and welcome to R, D and the In Betweens in 2021. It's your erstwhite host Kelly Preece here 4 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:42,000 And I'm delighted to be bringing you our first episode of the New Year. 5 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:50,000 This is the conclusion of my discussion with Ellie Hassan, which I started back in 20/20 before Christmas, 6 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:54,000 talking about work life balance and managing and taking breaks. 7 00:00:54,000 --> 00:01:01,000 We went on to talking about how the COVID 19 pandemic has affected the data collection for her research, 8 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:06,000 and I thought the discussion was significant enough that it warranted its own podcast. 9 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:17,000 So here it is. People are struggling a lot with this at the moment because of kind of the way in which it has disrupted. 10 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:26,000 People's research, particularly data collection and the kind of the feeling, the need to kind of quote unquote catch up. 11 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:27,000 Yes. 12 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:40,000 Definitely had that. with what may have been missed or kind of where people feel very much behind where they were expecting to be, 13 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:45,000 I guess, have to say. Have you experienced that? 14 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:51,000 How have you dealt with it? Yeah, I've really, really experienced that especially. 15 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:57,000 I don't know what happened, like, off the basically as soon as September came in. 16 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:02,000 It felt like all of a sudden everyone was suddenly expected to be back on full again. 17 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:09,000 I don't know if other people had that experience, but it went from kind of the kind of general consensus that I was getting was it's okay. 18 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:14,000 Like we're in a pandemic. Everything's difficult to do. Right. We have to get by doing research now. 19 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:19,000 And I was like, oh, excuse me. Well, the situation hasn't really changed. 20 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:27,000 still pretty up to the air. And we are still not able to test people face to face, which is what I'm relying on be able to do? 21 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:38,000 To get the data from my study. My main way I cope with that is I had to replan my whole PhD pretty much, which was kind of daunting 22 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:49,000 I say replan. We didn't completely change everything, but we had to kind of just be really brutal and cut out anything that we could get cut out. 23 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:55,000 So I actually I was really lucky to get some project management training from my DTP 24 00:02:55,000 --> 00:03:02,000 And has conversations with my supervisors about what constituted like a realistic work programme and things like that? 25 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:07,000 So, yeah, it was just it was just kind of rethinking the whole thing. And it was kind of disappointing when it wasn't kind of disappointing. 26 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,000 It was very disappointing. I just had my upgrade when we went into lockdown. 27 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:16,000 So I had all these like, great plans for the radical research. 28 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,000 And now it's it's just nothing like how it would have been. 29 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:25,000 But, you know, that's fine. I'm still gonna get to do some really cool stuff. 30 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,000 It just means that there's other cool stuff waiting for me once I'm done. 31 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:36,000 So, yeah. Have you a major rethink just what's realistic for me to do at the moment? 32 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:41,000 Absolutely. Because if you're trying to just stick to what you have planned for. 33 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:45,000 It's just it's just not going to be possible, is it? No. 34 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:52,000 And it and I think the what you said about the disappointment, I think is really important because, you know, 35 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:57,000 we think about the kind of practical implications of, you know, I know people that have, you know, 36 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,000 been supposed to be doing fieldwork abroad and in and, you know, 37 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:08,000 that's going to be an entire chapter case study of the thesis and all this stuff that's been postponed or potentially, you know, cancelled altogether. 38 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:19,000 And it's huge practical disruption. But a lot of the time that there are ways in which, like, you know, you're talking to modify. 39 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:20,000 Yes, project. 40 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:29,000 So there is still it's still it's it's still a PhD or a research degree or what, you know, which, you know, every kind of programme we run. 41 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:39,000 But the disappointment and the stress and the anxiety associated with that, I think is possibly the thing that we're not talking about enough. 42 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:45,000 Yeah, it was really disappointing. And really, I'm I'm still anxious like about it. 43 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:53,000 We still don't know what's going to happen in the next like Yeah. You know, in the next two weeks, let alone. 44 00:04:53,000 --> 00:05:04,000 Yeah. But like, I'm halfway through my PhD and I still don't have a chapter yet, which is just like horrifying if you think about it too much 45 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,000 But like it's okay, you know, it's it's fine. It's gonna be all right. 46 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:15,000 But I can't get too stressed about it or it just ends up being counterproductive. 47 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,000 I think it it's that it's all consuming. Yeah. 48 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:30,000 When that happens and it that's that's the real challenge is kind of how do you overcome those kind of moments of the. 49 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,000 I think we're all getting in various different, you know, different ways. 50 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:40,000 You know, I have these moments where I go, you know, I have moments where I remember that we're in a global pandemic now. 51 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:47,000 I forget that I have moments where the kind of significance and the weight of it. 52 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:51,000 The reality consumes up every now and again. And you just have these moments of going 53 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:59,000 Oh, my word. Like how? Like, I have barely left the house since March and. 54 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:04,000 I'm probably not gonna go back to work into the office until next March. 55 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,000 I could be working at home for an entire year and, you know. 56 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:11,000 And the world is is a completely different place. In so many ways. 57 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:18,000 And I have these moments of kind of oh my word. And I think, you know, every everybody has those experiences. 58 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:27,000 And then when you have it, it must be the same with you PhD project kind of pootling along alright and then go, oh, my word. 59 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:32,000 Or, you know, all of the things that I wanted to do when I'd planned to do. 60 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:37,000 Yeah. Is is I don't want to sound too melodramatic. 61 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:43,000 No, it is a little bit like being in mourning for your PhD 62 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,000 Yes. No, no, I don't think it's melodramatic at all. 63 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:55,000 And it really that really encapsulates actually the what people have while other people have said to me, they've they said it in that way. 64 00:06:55,000 --> 00:07:01,000 But it is it's in mourning for what the project could've been or would have been in other circumstances. 65 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:08,000 And it and it's difficult to let that go as well, because I think, you know, we we don't know. 66 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:16,000 Another thing that I think we we kind of I think we undervalue is the amount of personal investment. 67 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:22,000 In the design of these projects and, you know, people who do research, 68 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:28,000 they're not doing research generally on some kind of random thing that they don't care about. 69 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:33,000 Yes, I wouldn't go too well especially for a PhD if you didn't care about it. 70 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,000 People are doing research on things that they care about deeply. 71 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,000 And that might be because it affects them personally or affects people that they know, 72 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:45,000 or it's just something that the hugely passion about and they want to create change with. 73 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:52,000 And so the emotional and personal investment that. And the amount of time, yeah. 74 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:58,000 Year and a half your life, you know. Yeah, it's a big revelation for me. 75 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:02,000 So, you know, this already but I'm really into, like, open science. 76 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:08,000 Yeah. I'm one of the things that we planned for my PhD was that I would do register reports. 77 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,000 I won't go into too much detail about where they are, 78 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:19,000 but basically they require you having a pretty good sample size so that you can get a really well powered experiment. 79 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:24,000 And my the opportunity to have a really good sample size now is just gone. 80 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:29,000 But I'm still gonna have like, it's gonna be fine. It's not going to be like anN of two or anything like that. 81 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:40,000 But the opportunity to get some like read like a really solid data and really be able to say like yes this is incredible it's just gone now. 82 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:47,000 Which is. Yeah, it's really sad. I really care about that. And that's just gone. 83 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:54,000 And I think what Ellie's talking about here is what a lot of PhDs have been talking to me about since the start of the COVID 19 pandemic. 84 00:08:54,000 --> 00:09:00,000 It's not about not being able to make changes to complete their research degree. 85 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:07,000 It's about the ways in which the vision or the way that they had envisaged the project is fundamentally changed. 86 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:13,000 And that can be things like what Ellie was experiencing in terms of not being able to collect the same sample size and therefore 87 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:21,000 not being able to engage with those open data practises that she's really passionate about as a researcher and a scientist. 88 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:28,000 But I know people who've had to drop entire case studies or completely changed their methodology. 89 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:33,000 And although the research can be done and they can complete their research degree, 90 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:42,000 there's a real sense of loss and a real sense of mourning for what they envisaged the project would be and the contribution that it would make. 91 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:48,000 And again, it's it's going back to the fact that these are so often deeply personal topics 92 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,000 that people are researching things that they're incredibly passionate about. 93 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:57,000 And so it's important alongside all of the practical complexities of changing these projects, 94 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:04,000 that we acknowledge that there is that emotional toll and there is that sense of grief and mourning. 95 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,000 I'd be really interested in hearing from more postgraduate researchers about the 96 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:13,000 ways in which they've had to change their projects due to the COVID19 pandemic. 97 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:17,000 If you're interested in coming on the podcast and talking to me about your experiences, 98 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:22,000 please do get in touch with me on Twitter @Preece_Kelly 99 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:54,336 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me next time when I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers, development and everything inbetween  

In the last episode of the year I talk to Sport and Health Sciences PGR Ellie Hassan about work/life balance, time management and - most importantly - taking a break.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Hello and welcome, R, D. And the in betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,000 and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researches, development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:38,000 Hello and welcome to the final episode of R, D amd the In Betweens for 2020. 4 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:46,000 And what a year it has been for this last episode as we're going into the winter break or Christmas break. 5 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:53,000 I wanted to think about what it's like for PGRs to manage work life balance and how easy or not easy 6 00:00:53,000 --> 00:01:03,000 in some cases it is to put some time aside at these kind of marker moments in the year and rest. 7 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,000 So I'm delighted to be joined by Ellie Hassan, one of our PGRs. 8 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:15,000 So, Ellie, are you happy to introduce yourself? Yeah. So I'm Ellie I'm a PhD student in health sciences. 9 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:21,000 I'm halfway through my PhD now. So two years into a four year programme. 10 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:34,000 So two years left. And what we're going to talk about in this episode is taking a break in the broad and loose sense of the term. 11 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,000 So we're coming up to Christmas at this point in the UK. 12 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:43,000 And so. It's it's the time of year where we get all of these emails from senior management. 13 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:48,000 I've gotten them to saying, enjoy your break, enjoy your break and your brain goes. 14 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:53,000 You must, enjoy your break. My brain's sense ongoing. 15 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:59,000 I must enjoy the break, but I must also do all of the thing 16 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:07,000 In your experience so far, how do you how have you managed the kind of the not the mandated breaks, 17 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:14,000 but the kind of more sort of the fluctuations of time, time and things like Christmas and Easter, 18 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:20,000 where the university traditionally has a closed period? Have you approached those as a PhD student? 19 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:28,000 Yeah. So I think. So I'm I'm very strict on my holiday time. 20 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,000 I think especially in comparison to other people. 21 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:41,000 One of the reasons that I'm so strict on it and I'm able to approach it the way that I do is when I was doing my undergrad in my master's degree, 22 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:46,000 have structured holidays like that. And I also used to work part time. 23 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,000 So I basically I didn't get weekends or anything like anything any time off. 24 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:55,000 So when I came into my Exeter, I was like, right. This is a full time job. 25 00:02:55,000 --> 00:03:01,000 So I'm going to take weekends off. When there's holidays, there's holidays, and I'm going to try and really make the most of it. 26 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:06,000 And it's just really benefit me a lot. I really like being able to switch off. 27 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:14,000 And as long as I work properly and we don't mess about stuff and we can scheduling like leisure activities. 28 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:22,000 When I really ought to be working. Then I'm like, I'm really happy. 29 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:28,000 I feel like I've earned them. So that works really well for me, for sure. 30 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:35,000 And what? And I think it shouldn't go unsaid that that kind of treating the PhD as a nine to five. 31 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:40,000 Taking your breaks and feeling like you've earned them, it's not a small thing. 32 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,000 It's a really brave thing to do. 33 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:53,000 And I'm always kind of really, really in awe when when people do that, because it isn't an easy thing to do within kind of academic. 34 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:58,000 Because, I mean, is it what you see the academics and students around you doing? 35 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:06,000 Yeah, I see it mixed. So I'm really lucky. One of my supervisors is is really strict on his time. 36 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:13,000 So, I mean, he's got a young family. I mean, he's like, okay, living and working from home and the my. 37 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:18,000 So he's very much better friends with family life. 38 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:24,000 So he's a really good example. He works pretty much eight hours most days. 39 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,000 And I would see him coming into the office in the morning and then leaving a set time 40 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:34,000 every day like he's he wouldn't necessarily e-mail me out of hours or anything like that. 41 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:42,000 How important is that for you having that kind of having a supervisor that is a role model in that way and sets a very clear kind of set, 42 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,000 very clear boundaries and a very clear expectation? 43 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:54,000 Yeah, it's really it's pretty important because it should be like you see a lot of other people doing almost opposite, they're in all the time. 44 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:59,000 Like I know other lecturers, other staff aren't like that. 45 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,000 They'll email all sorts of time. And that's what maybe that's just what their schedule is like, 46 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,000 that maybe they have a strict schedule, but it's just different hours, which is completely fine. 47 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:13,000 But it it kind of sends a message that you have to be you have to be going all the time that this job is like your life. 48 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,000 And I ideally would like to stay in academia, but I don't want to have to do that. 49 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:24,000 So to see someone able to protect their time like that is really comforting and yeah, really nice. 50 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,000 I don't feel any pressure from him to have to do otherwise. 51 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:38,000 So I think that's it's so important that that kind of role modelling of senior academics and supervisors and peers and managers, 52 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:44,000 it is such such an important precedent how they manage their time. 53 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:50,000 And, you know, I have colleagues that work flexibly because particularly at the moment because of childcare and working from home, 54 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:55,000 but also because of health reasons and and, you know, so will be emailing out of hours? 55 00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:00,000 But I see, you know, they have this wonderful thing on the bottom of their email saying, I work flexibly, I'm out of hours. 56 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:07,000 I've got your response out of hours. This is when I'm working. Yeah, I really like that when you pop out at the bottom of the email 57 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:15,000 I really do. And. And every once in a while, I see people with wonderful out of offices saying things like. 58 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:19,000 I hope you get a break. Merry Christmas. And that means something quite nice about that 59 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,000 It is. It gives you it does. The thing that does the you know, 60 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:32,000 what your supervisor is doing by kind of modelling how to set boundaries is giving you a junior researcher permission to do the same thing. 61 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,000 So do you you know, you said you see other people around you doing the exact opposite. 62 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:41,000 You know, just does the pressure of that creep in sometimes? Does it make you sort of feel like, oh, maybe I should be? 63 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:46,000 Yeah, definitely. Especially the nature of the research. 64 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:50,000 Some of the research that goes on in sports health sciences means that people have to come in and say no. 65 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:56,000 At the moment it's not I don't think it's allowed, but people have to come in on the weekend or in the evening or really, 66 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:01,000 really early in the morning to do stuff with like lab samples and things like that. 67 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:09,000 And have you get enough time to test their participants. So sometimes it has happened and that's completely fine. 68 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,000 I don't feel any pressure in regards to that kind thing. 69 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:22,000 But, yeah, it's it's quite stressful when you see people doing loads of work and you think, I had a really nice weekend and I didn't 70 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:27,000 I didn't look at my laptop once But I'm really I'm I'm quite realistic. 71 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:33,000 I think. I mean, I know that I can't work like that. It just ends up really being really counterproductive. 72 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,000 Like, I just can't function if I do stuff like that. 73 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:45,000 So, yeah. So when I feel that pressure frequent, I'm like, well, if I did that, it wouldn't actually help alleviate the whole situation worse. 74 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:51,000 So yeah. And that's that's the thing that's really, really difficult because it's counterintuitive. 75 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:57,000 We think that the more that we sit at a desk and quote unquote work, you know, 76 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:01,000 the more will do and the more productive will be in the back, the better our work will be. 77 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:11,000 But actually, for so many people. It it's just the complete opposite and giving yourself permission. 78 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:17,000 To take those breaks, yeah, it's really difficult. 79 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:22,000 So. When are you stopping for a break? Then over Christmas. 80 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:28,000 I remember. Sorry. It's basically like the week. So I haven't, I think, two weeks on Christmas, maybe a little bit more. 81 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:34,000 Are you not going to look at your emails? So, yeah. So what I tend to do is just kind of I will check 82 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:40,000 I have the phone, but I have the notifications off. So I only checl them when I want to look at them. 83 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:45,000 I know pretty much check every every couple days maybe. 84 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:55,000 It depends if I'm expecting it to come through. When I had my kind of little holiday this summer, I was in the process of like proofing a paper. 85 00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:00,000 You know how they did that thing with I like we have to get this back within 24 hours. 86 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,000 I was checking. I was checking my phone quite a lot to see that had come through 87 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,000 But then literally I produced the paper. It was fine. And I'm on the back. 88 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:13,000 And that was all I did. So, yeah, I'll kind of check my e-mails every every couple days, every few days. 89 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:22,000 It looks it depends what's coming in, who I'm expecting to come in, but it's really just to see if there's anything that I want to follow up. 90 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:27,000 Sometimes it's it's very rarely stuff that has to be followed up, but it can be kind of helpful. 91 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:35,000 You know, you can spend like five minutes, send an email, and then that will save you half an hour in January or whatever. 92 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:40,000 So, yeah, maybe I should be a little bit more strict on that, but that's it makes me feel better. 93 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:50,000 Keeping a little bit on top of what's going on. I've I've had exactly the same idea of someone's literally sent me the message moments ago that I. 94 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:59,000 So I was off for a couple of weeks on sick leave and I was kind of dipping into my emails every few days just to kind of clear the decks. 95 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:04,000 Saying you shouldn't have done that. Yeah, but I kind of felt I felt well enough. 96 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,000 I only did it when I felt well enough to do it. Yeah. 97 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:16,000 So the volume of emails sometimes that come through our inboxes, it, it's, it's not always that way, 98 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:20,000 you know, but it can be particularly in the autumn twem and at this particular time in the autumn term. 99 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,000 So I was like, I just want to make sure that when I come back on Monday morning, 100 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:33,000 I don't have an inbox with kind of hundreds of emails in it that I have to try and deal with really quickly. 101 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:39,000 And I think that that's it's it's not something I would normally do when I'm on annual leave. 102 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:44,000 Yeah. Because usually I would take annual leave in non term time. 103 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:49,000 So email is lower, but because it was term time, I made a decision to do things differently. 104 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:55,000 And I think part of part of this whole process is actually kind of giving yourself permission to do that, too. 105 00:10:55,000 --> 00:11:01,000 Yeah, it's so so I actually I was on sick leave this year for three months. 106 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:09,000 Yeah. Because I ended up getting long COVID but it was a similar thing where there was no obligation for me to do any work. 107 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:15,000 But I, I didn't want to not do anything because I felt like I would kind of stagnate. 108 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:19,000 Also I would go report and I was an extra and I was by myself for Loba as well. 109 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:26,000 So yeah. But yeah, it would have just been pretty boring. So when I felt like I had the kind of capacity that I did something that made 110 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,000 me it made me feel better that I was still kind of ticking along a little bit. 111 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:35,000 But I, I still felt no obligation really. And I ended up writing that paper. 112 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,000 and getting it published. So it was a pretty good use of my time 113 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:46,000 And the idea that made life a lot easier than when I got back off sick leave because there was stuff 114 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:51,000 kind of ticked off the list and also other stuff that I'd been mulling over a little bit as well. 115 00:11:51,000 --> 00:12:01,000 Mulling over time is really helpful. Yeah. And I think that's what we we really undervalue about taking breaks and in a kind of small way, 116 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:07,000 you know, during the day, but also these longer kind of periods of holiday or annually. 117 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:13,000 Yeah. Actually really gives you time to think and to be really does this and that. 118 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,000 And so I get it for me. I find it gives me time to think and process. 119 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:23,000 Then I'll come up with kind of random little thoughts and I kind of join in my focus for a later date. 120 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:28,000 Also, it gives you like a fresh perspective. When you get back to something, you need it. 121 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:35,000 Yeah, it's so valuable. The amount of times I've come back slightly after holiday or even weekend, I've been like, what was like, 122 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:42,000 this is this is silly for these reasons or like, oh, maybe I can tweak this or make it better this way. 123 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:47,000 And I wouldn't if I'd stuck with it the whole time and know how to break it, I would never go that benefit. 124 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:53,000 So. So two weeks off over Christmas. Yeah. 125 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:58,000 How do you how do you relax? How do you kind of. 126 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:03,000 Switch off because, you know. 127 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:09,000 We have that mulling over time, which is great and it's really great for those kind of little moments of random thoughts and inspirations hit, 128 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:14,000 but also because, you know, what we do is an intellectual pursuit. 129 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:22,000 You can really switch off all thinking about your research and certainly about your PhD to allow you to see how how. 130 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,000 How do you go about that? How do you go about that relaxation switching off? 131 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:33,000 Yeah, I guess I I've always been someone who gets bored really easily, so I have to find ways to kind of occupy my brain. 132 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:41,000 So if I'm not trying to occupy it with work, it's like reading gaming's quite a good one. 133 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:48,000 And like spending time my family as well. Like pestering my sister. 134 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,000 Or like I will not see this Christmas, 135 00:13:51,000 --> 00:14:00,000 but like I'll go round my Grandma's for a cup of tea basically getting away from a situation where I've sat at a laptop. 136 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:10,000 And that kind of that get that move away from the screen or getting away from the screen has become even more important now that we're all. 137 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:18,000 Well, I'm feeling lazy working from home. Yeah. And I think I you know, I talk to a lot of researchers and I'm exactly the same as me. 138 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:23,000 I, I cannot sit still. It's just not in my nature. 139 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,000 And I'm constantly told off because I, 140 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:35,000 I can't even watch television and not do something else at the same time playing a game on my phone or like on my switch or just like. 141 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:45,000 Because I do craft stuff like crochet or something. My brain doesn't seem to be able to function or cope unless it's doing a couple of things at once. 142 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,000 And it's been a really difficult kind of learning curve for me to learn. 143 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:54,000 I do I do need to do stuff to relax. Yeah, not just. 144 00:14:54,000 --> 00:15:03,000 You know, I know people who you can just sit. And, you know, I envy them. 145 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:09,000 And I do not understand them. Because that's not I need to do something. 146 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,000 And and more often than not, like you, 147 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:20,000 I need to read or game or craft or whatever is because I need something that's going to occupy my brain in whatever way. 148 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:26,000 Just to take my mind to stop me thinking about all of the other, you know, 149 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:32,000 all of the million things that need that need to be done because it's always more that needs to be done things. 150 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,000 So I'm I'm a really big fan of lists. Yeah. 151 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:41,000 So sometimes like I was usually if I'm I mean, it's not problem to think for research when, you know, actually work. 152 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:46,000 It's not really a problem unless you, like, sit, sat obsessing about it. 153 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:53,000 It's like not really enjoy yourself. But yeah, I find if I, if I find myself kind of stuck out of thought. 154 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:58,000 Or just add it like I just make a list on my phone. I just put this off my phone. 155 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:05,000 And I might even go back to the list and update it as I have more thoughts. But I find it really useful because then I know that I can go back. 156 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:10,000 I don't have to worry about it now when I get back to. 157 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,000 Look, even if it is just a weekend. But when I get back from a holiday, I can look back on that list. 158 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:20,000 Right. What do I need to address it? Like, came up and I did the same thing. 159 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:25,000 I send myself an email. So because I. So I have. 160 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:34,000 My I have my email account on my phone, but I don't have my mail synced, so I can't look at it and move on if I want to. 161 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:39,000 But I've got the calendar synced, but not my mail. And that has been really good. 162 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,000 Yeah. That I discovered that a few years ago. 163 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:49,000 That's been a really revolutionary thing for me because I can get it on that very quickly when I need it or want it. 164 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:57,000 But at the same time, it's it's just the inbox isn't even there. So where to do is if I have a thought or quite often I will you know, 165 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,000 I'll be scrolling through Twitter in the evening and I'll see something that's relevant 166 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,000 to work or something that I think I need to reply to that will do something about that. 167 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:11,000 I just e-mail myself to my work email with a kind of note saying you need to do this or look at this. 168 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:16,000 And I find that helps a lot because it kind of I know that I. 169 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:26,000 I jumped out of my brain. Yeah. Log on to my email on Monday morning or whenever is it will be there. 170 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:33,000 And that almost gives me permission to forget about it. Yeah, I mean, you forgot about having to get it to the site, so when. 171 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:43,000 Yes. Wherever you are, you know, so. Yeah. And I think that's one of the kind of the real benefits of of lists is the ability to put that down. 172 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,000 But even people who work on a natural kind of list, 173 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:56,000 lovers know lots of people that have kind of notes on the phone or notebooks or voice notes or, you know, people do lots of different ways. 174 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,000 Just get out of the brain. 175 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:16,000 And documented somewhere so that they couldn't, you know, get on with the business of relaxation, which is not the easiest thing in the world. 176 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:21,000 OK, so what about ways in which you. 177 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:31,000 Are there ways in which you connect with and kind of relax with the kind of PhD students, so that particular kind of. 178 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:37,000 Ways that interact with each other, that you kind of that you help each other relax. 179 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:42,000 I guess I'm not so much, to be honest. 180 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:47,000 I've got I've got a few friends who like. 181 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:55,000 So I would say the people, the people that I know who are PhD students they kind of broadly fit in to two categories 182 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:00,000 So people that I only really would see you interact with when I'm at work. 183 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:06,000 Yeah. And then people who I do stuff with at the weekend or in evenings or whatever. 184 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:11,000 So yeah, the ones who I would do stuff with kind of outside of work. 185 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:21,000 Yeah. Well like me often stuff, but it's not, it's not a deliberate ploy to get them away from their work and holidays or. 186 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:31,000 Yeah. I think, I think broadly my kind of closer friends are pretty good, which are most of them have partners and things like that. 187 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:35,000 So I think that helps. Yeah. 188 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:43,000 I think, you know, not not to in any way suggest that, particularly during this period, 189 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:48,000 that kind of having partner in families and responsibilities makes things easier. 190 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:54,000 Because I'm not that no. There is an extent to which it forces you to. 191 00:19:54,000 --> 00:20:06,000 Yeah. In some form of boundary. Because I think you've just got something external to remind you you shouldn't just be working the whole day. 192 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,000 We can't just work the whole day. You have to go and pick up pick child up from school. 193 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:14,000 You know, I mean, those aren't movable things. Yeah. 194 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:20,000 In the same way as perhaps kind of having a coffee with someone, whether that be in person, 195 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:26,000 socially distanced, virtually whatever it is we're doing at any given time. 196 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:32,000 But I think it's I think it's interesting because I hear from a lot of people that, you know, there is a kind of. 197 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:36,000 In some ways a demarcation between kind of. 198 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:46,000 PhD life and then kind of personal and family life where a lot of people's friends are actually not PhD students. 199 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,000 Yeah. I think I just want to switch off my friends and. 200 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:59,000 I think all of my friends in Exeter are PhD students pretty much. And then my friends from home, a couple of them, actually. 201 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:04,000 But most of them just have kind of normal jobs, if you like. Yeah. 202 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:10,000 I don't find that really to be a problem. I see. We'll end up talking a lot about for this stuff. 203 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:17,000 Yeah. When we're just trying. But not in a way. I like I don't I don't want to fly down. 204 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:22,000 I mean, it's not like we're sitting down and having your in-depth supervisory about my work. 205 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,000 What I've done in the past week, this idea or this piece of data. Exactly. 206 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:36,000 And it's sometimes super helpful. Especially when, like those very stresses, it's tough to hear from them how they're doing if they're doing well. 207 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:41,000 But it's really nice to see we're happy for them if they're stressed that it's nice because you can both commiserate together. 208 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,000 I think that's what I was trying to get out to you. 209 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:51,000 That senses there's there's a benefit to people that share your experience and that really understand what it's like to be in it. 210 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:57,000 And so, like you say, celebrate with you when it's going well and commiserate with you when it's not. 211 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:04,000 But then having kind of the people outside of that, you don't necessarily have. 212 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:15,000 Experience or understanding of what this journey is like. And, you know, quite frankly, possibly don't want to know. 213 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:20,000 I'm reminded of a wonderful moment that my life was staying with my father over Christmas. 214 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:25,000 And he picked up a draft of a book chapter that I was working on with my supervisor. 215 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:30,000 And he read a sentence of it. And he went. Kelly, I love you, but I've got no idea what you do. 216 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:36,000 and he went and I'm okay with that. And I had this moment of 217 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,000 Yeah, it's it's kind of fine because that it and it works would me. 218 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,000 Because we don't. There's a usual kind of like always it go it all right. 219 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:49,000 Yeah. It's fine. Yeah. But there's no in-depth conversation because. 220 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:59,000 Nobody really knows what questions to ask, and they don't really care. I find that I find support those the kind of people not wanting to know quite. 221 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,000 It can be quite freeing. Guess. Yeah, sure. All right. 222 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:09,000 Okay. I can't I can't talk about it because it's not the audience for it, I guess. 223 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:16,000 Yeah, I completely I've definitely had that with not so much family members, but like friends, 224 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,000 family, like neighbours and things like that, they'll be like, oh like how's it going on my. 225 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:26,000 Oh yeah. You said you are going to be. Oh. What's that about. And I'm like, I actually don't want to talk about it. 226 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,000 I it's nice that you asked but also. 227 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:39,000 So it's really kind of up there and there's always that I always say like make a joke about the moment that they ask the question for the detail. 228 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:46,000 And then if you start giving the I always gave it really quick, like, ah, I regret asking this question. 229 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:53,000 Yeah. Because it's complicated and I'm not sure I actually want to know. 230 00:23:53,000 --> 00:24:03,000 So how I guess. How do you manage all of this being away from. 231 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:12,000 Like family. So obviously, like like a lot of people you come to Exeter to do your PhD 232 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,000 How do you kind of manage all of this stuff and manage relaxing and taking holidays and 233 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,000 taking breaks with being kind of distant from your family and obviously even more, 234 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,000 say, in the past few months? Yeah. 235 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:31,000 I mean, I've always. So I went. So my family from where my family live in London. 236 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:36,000 And I did my undergrad and my masters up in Scotland. 237 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,000 So I've always been, like, pretty far away from them. Yeah. 238 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:45,000 So like anything crazy. But it's not. So you can't just pop back home. 239 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:52,000 So I'm pretty used to being out a this is my family not seeing them like loads. 240 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,000 And yeah, I keep myself just keep myself busy I guess. I talk to them quite a lot. 241 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:01,000 Like I text my sister probably anywhere between five and 30 times a day. 242 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:08,000 Yeah. So it's it's I don't feel like separate from the from them necessarily. 243 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,000 And they'll be like, let me get more, text me. But I Oh you know what you up to this weekend kind of thing. 244 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:19,000 Yeah. Which is quite nice. I usually have some things to report. I also I play hockey. 245 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,000 I haven't been recently because of COVID 246 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:31,000 But that actually takes up quite a lot of time either in the holidays, like they'll put on extra training sessions and stuff. 247 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,000 But then at the weekends, it takes up most of my Saturday, to be honest. Yeah. 248 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,000 Like getting ready, getting to the match, 249 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:46,000 having lunch and getting back for the match can take anything from like four to six hours, depending on where I'm playing. 250 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:54,000 So, yeah, I guess just keeping busy. I have quite a lot of hobbies, so I don't really I really have trouble filling my time. 251 00:25:54,000 --> 00:26:03,000 Yeah. And and thinking about actually playing, playing sport and doing something that involves that kind of training. 252 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,000 How how does that fit in with managing the PhD 253 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:12,000 Like what benefits does that really. Well see so I don't play for the uni 254 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:20,000 So it's really nice to meet people on. I mean, some of the people that I play with, I like medical students, things like that. 255 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,000 But for the most part, people aren't affiliated with university. 256 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:32,000 So it's like getting to meet other people from the real world, the real world from out on the road. 257 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:40,000 It's quite nice. And yeah, because it's kind of a schedule thing that there's definitely been days where, say, we've had training, 258 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:48,000 training somebody about seven o'clock or I've had like a late day in the office or I've had to say I felt like, I have to stay late to do something. 259 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:55,000 And I'm like, hey, I've got hockey, so I have to stop. I have to put this down and I have to go and play hockey. 260 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,000 But yet also seeing them, like a lot of them, just have kind of nine to five jobs. 261 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,000 So seeing them on social media, 262 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:08,000 like enjoying their weekends and enjoying their holidays and not even mentioning thinking about work is again, it's quite good. 263 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:17,000 Like model. Yeah. To build off. So like I know it is a academia, we can see something very different, 264 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:26,000 but really it it should just be a job like it's that's what I'm contracted for, is to receive my  stipend for doing like 40 hours a weel 265 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:33,000 So I don't see why should they. More than that I should be able to compete in that time. 266 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:43,000 Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's that kind of. And if if it's not possible within that time, then the problem is with the system and not with you. 267 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:49,000 I think people often, you know, when people are experiencing like impostersyndrome and. 268 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:57,000 Stress and that kind of thing, it's very easy to go, oh, well, the problem is me, you know, and feeling the pressure to work all the time. 269 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,000 That it was tough, whereas actually, you know, 270 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:06,000 it's the acknowledgement that we actually work in a system that that kind of pushes that in the way it's structured. 271 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,000 And that's not to suggest that any individual person or institution does that. 272 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:18,000 But but it's it's a systemic thing. Yeah. It's a which is why we say that it's really brave to kind of not do that because 273 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:24,000 actually the system is constructed in a way to try and get and get you to. 274 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:30,000 And but people always blame it on kind of personal failures, whereas actually, you know, there's external responsibility. 275 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:35,000 I think more. So I see quite a lot of. 276 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:41,000 I'm quite active on Twitter and I do see people on their say like like I saw some of my other days that they haven't had a holiday for like two years. 277 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:46,000 And I was just like, well, I like that's crazy. 278 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,000 I'm never gonna say that if I. Like I said, I want to stay in academia. 279 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:57,000 If if I have to do that, stay in academia or I'm not doing it, that's just silly. You've got to prioritise yourself at some point. 280 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:04,000 And I appreciate that. Some people say they're just a lot more that one is not even a dedication thing. 281 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:11,000 I think they just have different priorities. But for me, it's it sounds selfish, but it's not a way to stay healthy. 282 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:18,000 You just go for it yourself. So I think that that's well, that's what's really encouraging for me in the job that I mean, 283 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:24,000 is that so many PGRs now are saying what you're saying, which is I want to stay in academia. 284 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:31,000 You know, I want a career in the sector, but also, you know, that kind of culture of overwork. 285 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:38,000 And I'm not going to you know, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to engage in that. 286 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:44,000 This is No. Criticism to anybody. 287 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:45,000 That is subject to those things, 288 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:53,000 because there's a whole kind of complex kind of culture area of audit and metrics and that kind of forces people to say, 289 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,000 you know, this isn't a criticism of them at all. 290 00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:01,000 But it's really encouraging to think that there's kind of a new generation of scholars coming up through the system going. 291 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,000 Well, no, actually, we don't need to buy into that. 292 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:14,000 And when you've got academic role models like your supervisor, you are able to to demarcate in that way. 293 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:21,000 And I think in a particularly, I know a lot of very successful academics in our institution. 294 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:27,000 Whoo hoo! You know, incredibly successful. You do exactly the same as your supervisor does. 295 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:37,000 You have very clear boundaries and very clear kind of work life balance. Yeah, it it shows the the rest of the community what is possible. 296 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,000 And it's not that people that aren't doing that are doing something wrong. I know academics. 297 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:48,000 I've got friends who. You know, they they work pretty much constantly, but they do that out of active choice. 298 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,000 It's interesting that you bring up because yeah, 299 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:58,000 I there's definitely so actually the people I lived with in my first year here, he worked every day of the week. 300 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,000 And I, I also about it once because I just don't understand how you do this. 301 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:11,000 I can't I just can't do that for him. He had to work every day of the week or he just he would just lose focus, will get too stressed. 302 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:16,000 But he didn't he. He never overworked himself like he would get up. 303 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,000 he never set an alarm. He would get up whenever he got up 304 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:26,000 He would go into uni and he he did quite long days, but they'd be peppered with like meeting friends and stuff like that. 305 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:32,000 So, yeah, there isn't one way to do it. And also, even if you don't want to do that, even if you do want to work like twelve hours a day, 306 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:37,000 seven days a week, if that's what you want to do and if you can sustain it, I'd be happy. 307 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:43,000 That is completely fine. It just doesn't work for me at all. So I just won't take part in anything. 308 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:48,000 And I think that that's really important. It's about that sense of individual choice and what and what works for you. 309 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:55,000 Yeah, I do. I do think that for the majority of people, that doesn't work. 310 00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:00,000 But I know, I know and have friends and colleagues for whom it very much does. 311 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:05,000 And for him, it's very fulfilling. There's some people who really thrive on that, don't they? 312 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:11,000 If they're just really well for them. Yeah. And that's and that's absolutely brilliant. 313 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:16,000 But I think that's the thing that we've got to be careful of is we don't make that the. 314 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:21,000 When that becomes the exception that we want that to be the exception rather than the rule. 315 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:26,000 And I feel at the moment it's the rule. And your supervisor. 316 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:34,000 And, you know, that's the exception. And that for me is whether where our culture needs to shift and where I kind of feel, 317 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:39,000 you know, I have my moments of feeling kind of really, really encouraged that, you know, 318 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,000 with with this kind of new generation of scholars coming through, 319 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:49,000 that that shift is coming because I'm seeing more and more people put these boundaries in place and talk openly about it. 320 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:55,000 That's the other thing. It's not just having those boundaries. It's talking about it and talking about how you manage it. 321 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,000 Yeah, we need you know, I we're saying earlier, we need those role models. 322 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:04,000 And we need those examples of senior people doing that. 323 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:14,000 So I guess my next question is, what advice do you have for other paedophiles who say imagining a fictional PGR, 324 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,000 which will be of a lot of PGRs as I imagine. 325 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:28,000 They really, really wants to get to a stage where they're working nine to five, where they're taking their holiday, but they just feel. 326 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:35,000 Pressured by, you know, the way other people in that department are working and or overwhelmed by workload. 327 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,000 What advice would you give them? 328 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:49,000 So I think the key thing is organise yourself so that you know that you can get done what you need to get done in that time. 329 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:57,000 I, I plan I plan on my weeks out and I'm constantly reviewing where I am and what I need to do things like that. 330 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:02,000 So occasionally I do end up working or we can do whatever to get some stuff out of the way. 331 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:09,000 So I know that the next week I can get on their feet. I need to get done in the time that I have to do it. 332 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:17,000 I think that's really the major pressure. People feel like they can't get everything done if they if they only do it on five or whatever. 333 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:23,000 Another thing would be when you're working. You were actually working. 334 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:30,000 So I know some people who do they do long hours, but a lot of it is actually quite unproductive, 335 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:40,000 which is completely fine if that's how you prefer to work. But for me, my nine to five, it's it's a very productive nine to five at least. 336 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:46,000 Definitely the first kind of four hours of the day. I'm I get loads of stuff done. 337 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:51,000 I get as much as I can. And then I might be a bit more relaxed. I might have a slightly longer lunch or whatever, but yeah, I, 338 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:59,000 I make sure that the time that I am doing my work is I'm really like pick some quality working and. 339 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:05,000 Yeah. But that also really helps because then I don't feel bad for taking time off. 340 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:11,000 I know that I've done the 40 hours or thirty seven point five or whatever it is in the week, 341 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:18,000 and I know that I've done my best at doing that and with being organised, I then know that I'm on track. 342 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,000 So yeah, I don't I don't feel bad at all for taking time off. 343 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,000 Also, just be a bit nicer to also look like you deserve. 344 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,000 If you want to take time off, we need to take time off. You completely deserve it. 345 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,000 It's it's more like a luxury that you have to earn. 346 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:41,000 I know I said I feel like I have to earn my time off, but it's more that's just for me to kind of feel. 347 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:49,000 Happy with everything. And really, that's what you want to get to. You won't get to a point where you're just happy with the work you're doing. 348 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:58,000 The balance that you have. Thank you so much to Ellie for taking the time to talk to me about how she manages, well, 349 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:04,000 life balance and taking breaks and taking holidays and weekends and and all of those sorts of things. 350 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,000 And for her great advice for other PGRs, 351 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:13,000 as you think you can tell from the conversation that I've been thinking a lot about well-being 352 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:18,000 and self care and some of the structural issues we have within higher education at the moment. 353 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:24,000 And I think it's really important to acknowledge those when we're talking about work life balance and well-being, 354 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,000 but also to acknowledge the pressures that people have outside work. You know, 355 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:36,000 it's not as simple as taking evenings and weekends for people if they are also working or 356 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:44,000 are self-funded or part time or have families or partners or caring responsibilities. 357 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:51,000 And I think I just want to take a moment to acknowledge that. 358 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:57,000 And that's it for 2020. Thank you so much for coming on this journey with me so far. 359 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:17,000 And I really look forward to more discussions about researchers development and the in betweens in 2021. 360 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:22,000 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me. 361 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:49,175 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researches, development and everything in between.      

In this episode I talk again to Edward Mills who appeared on the second episode of the podcast. Sincer we last spoke Edward has submitted his thesis and passed his viva with minor corrections, and in this episode we'll go right through that process from submission, to prep, to the viva itself and doing the corrections. You can find out about the Viva Survivors podcast and resources Edward mentions on the Viva Survivors website. Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/    Podcast transcript 1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Hello and welcome to R, D and the Inbetweens. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:32,000 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researches, development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,000 Hi, everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of R, D in the In Betweens. 4 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,000 Today, I'm really pleased to be joined once again by Edward Mills, 5 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:48,000 who I spoke to very early on in the kind of the days of this podcast about writing up during the time of Corona virus. 6 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:56,000 And today, I'm really delighted to be talking to Edward about his experience of the VIva, which he passed last month with minor corrections. 7 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:01,000 So, Edward, tell us what you've been up to since we last spoke. 8 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:11,000 Well, it's a it's been a busy few months. I had my viva at the start of October. 9 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:20,000 And since then, I've been waiting for and subsequently received my corrections, which I'm currently working on as ever with postgrad life. 10 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:27,000 Plenty of other things have come up and got in the way as well. But it's been a it's been an exciting period, I think. 11 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:36,000 And I'm looking forward to talking about it today. Yeah. So. As I said at the start, you passed with minor corrections, which is absolutely fantastic. 12 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:42,000 Thank you. Let's talk. Okay. I think it'd be easiest to talk if we talk chronologically. 13 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,000 Yeah. So talk to me about submission. 14 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:52,000 What was that like? So submitting was terrifying. 15 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,000 I actually started to think about submission a long time ago, 16 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:02,000 mainly because I'd spent the last year procrastinating by doing my acknowledgements, of course, Naturally 17 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:13,000 And. I really looked forward to the moment when I go up to the sid desk, the student information desk we have here in Exeter, and hand in my thesis, 18 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:18,000 having done it with a few other people before and having kind of helped them out and been with them and 19 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:23,000 taken the photos of them getting their thesis printed in the student print room just above all of that jazz. 20 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:29,000 I'm really looking forward to it. And then the rona happened. 21 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,000 Oh, she did. Yes. And unfortunately, that got in the way slightly. 22 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:41,000 So therefore, my submission process involved hitting send on an e-mail entitled My PhD Thesis. 23 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:49,000 Yeah, it doesn't quite have the same celebrator moment to it as kind of taking having a picture taken in the in 24 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:55,000 the forum and but especially not when you get an out of out of office reply email in response to it. 25 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,000 Yes. Yes. Because I sent over the weekend. 26 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:08,000 But I mean, even though the the moment of submission, perhaps perhaps less celebratory, I imagine the time afterwards wasn't any. 27 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,000 Was it about as anticlimactic as it usually is? Yes. 28 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:22,000 So in practical terms, what it meant for me was not sending a PDF, but sending a onedrive because my thesis was quite large. 29 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:28,000 And then the file size, not necessarily in terms of intellectual knowledge, but in terms of file size. 30 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,000 It was a minor corrections would disagree with you. In terms of file size, it was surprisingly large. 31 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:39,000 So what I ended up doing was having several PDFs chapter by chapter with high res images and then a single one for the whole thesis, 32 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,000 volume one and volume two with low resolution images on it. 33 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:50,000 So I'd send that link off and then I had a minor panic because I couldn't quite grasp what I'd done. 34 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:55,000 I wasn't quite able to understand the enormity of having submitted a thesis. 35 00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:02,000 Luckily, I was doing some work the following morning so I couldn't focus too heavily on that. 36 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:13,000 But it was a slightly anticlimactic period, especially because not a lot happens between the submission and the Viva period. 37 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:20,000 You're in that sort of no man's land, apart from the occasional email from your internal examiner to confirm dates and times. 38 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:25,000 And then you get the teams notification in my case saying Edward Mills, viva, 39 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:30,000 because, of course, you did an online Viva, which will come to you in a moment. Yes, absolutely. Well, how so? 40 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:38,000 How long was the gap between submission and Viva? So I submitted on I think it was. 41 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,000 It was something like the 5th of September. OK. Or the note was a little early in that. 42 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:50,000 So I think that the twenty eighth of August, something along those lines and my viva was on the 5th of October. 43 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:56,000 So it was just about a month and a half. That's pretty... It was a fairly speedy that the regulations say it was. 44 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:01,000 So it's to be within what, three months. Yeah, but it's one of those sort of at Exeter 45 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,000 Certainly the regulations are within usually within three months because there were all sorts 46 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,000 of reasons why it might need to go beyond three months in terms of availability of externals, 47 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:14,000 etc, etc. But my my viva itself was on the 5th of October. 48 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:21,000 So within within a couple of months after submission, even if I can remember the exact date when I when I hit submit or send one. 49 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:30,000 So when did you start preparing for the viva? 50 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:37,000 I think preparing for the viva actually began before I submitted to a certain degree. 51 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,000 I've been very fortunate to have a wonderful, 52 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:48,000 wonderful PhD supervisor and on a few occasions we did discuss things in the thesis I was drafting them that we thought were defensible. 53 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,000 That would need to be defended at the Viva. 54 00:05:50,000 --> 00:06:00,000 So particular decisions we'd taken in terms of why I'd taken intend to structure in terms of points of focus, in terms of what I hadn't focussed on. 55 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:09,000 But in practical terms, I would certainly say that the main prep for the viva actually happened fairly shortly beforehand. 56 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:15,000 I spent the first couple of weeks after I submitted doing teaching. 57 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:21,000 Which meant that I was something external to the university, which meant that I wasn't really looking at the thesis all that much, 58 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,000 that's probably a good thing in terms of having a fresh pair of eyes to come back to it. Yeah. 59 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,000 We always advise that. I'm hoping at some point you took some form of a break. Oh, absolutely. 60 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,000 Yes. 61 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:40,000 I, I, I did a a big celebratory bike ride, which those of you who remember my previous podcast will remember talking about whizzing downhills going. 62 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:46,000 We it's it's not how everybody would choose to celebrate, but it's how I chose to sell. 63 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:52,000 Well indeed. We were still inside while we were under restrictions in the UK. 64 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:57,000 So celebrations have taken on a very different meaning in the last six months. 65 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:08,000 Yes, this is very true. But in the stage, running up to the viva itself, I think most of the prep that I did falls into two stages. 66 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:16,000 The first was learning about the Viva itself and understanding a bit more about what the viva would be and what it would be like. 67 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:22,000 That included a lot of things I did before I submitted, including attending some of the sessions. 68 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:26,000 thedoctoral college offers. Thank you for the plug, I think. All right. 69 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:36,000 now worries. And that also included talking to quite a few people who'd been through Viva, both in my discipline, 70 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:41,000 which is modern languages and mediaeval studies, and also outside of it as well. 71 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:46,000 So. Just to pick up on that, I. When you when you were speaking to people. 72 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:52,000 Yes. About their viva experiences, what were you asking them? 73 00:07:52,000 --> 00:08:02,000 I was asking them to describe how their viva experience was, if there was anything that they did not expect in their viva, OK? 74 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:08,000 And also what they might have done differently and what advice they might have for me. 75 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:15,000 And I got a very wide range of pieces of advice coming back at me. 76 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:20,000 And I think the thing that emerged throughout all of that was you're the expert. 77 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:29,000 It's difficult to believe that. I'm sure that something will come back to later in the podcast. But that was the main theme that came out from it. 78 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:40,000 One practical piece of advice that I received, which I would very much recommend people do, is to produce a. 79 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:48,000 e prep document of some form and a friend of mine very kindly passed on theirs, 80 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,000 which basically included brief summaries of some of their chapters. 81 00:08:52,000 --> 00:09:00,000 I expanded that myself to make it the thesis on one side of a4 or summarised each section of my thesis. 82 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,000 This is moving on to sort of the second stage now, 83 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:11,000 which is annotating and improving and augmenting the thesis, if you like, for the Viva and like augmenting. 84 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Oh, yes, absolutely. So it's a VR thesis some way. We'll talk about that in a second. 85 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:23,000 And I adapted that to my thesis on one side of A4, which made it much easier to refer to. 86 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:29,000 And as a piece of advice I've actually had given and a number of times by. 87 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:34,000 Academics and researchers to actually being able to articulate it on one side 88 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:38,000 of A4 and either in kind of precis form or in bullet point form is really, 89 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:49,000 really important because it helps you. Crystallise and consolidate what the main driver of it is, which is often something you're asked to do right. 90 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,000 The beginning of the viva is a warm up question, but will come back. Oh, absolutely. 91 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:58,000 And I was very much hoping that I'd have to do it, octosylabic couplets, but unfortunately, that never happened. 92 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:02,000 Yes. Well, I think that might be a challenge for most people. There's also a bit niche isn't it. 93 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:07,000 The other thing I did, based on that particular piece advice, my friends, 94 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:13,000 which I heartily recommend, is producing what I called the kind of nightmare sheet 95 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:20,000 which was basically all of the questions I hoped I wouldn't be asked, but expected I probably would be. 96 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:30,000 Yes. So questions about why you've done this or any holds you think you might have spotted so that you can look at that. 97 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:36,000 There is no rule against taking notes into your viva. Certainly here at Exeter, I know the rules may vary always read the label. 98 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:43,000 But in Exeter, it was it was something I did check with my chair of the Viva. 99 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:52,000 And there were no issues there whatsoever. And that led me on to this sort of second stage of prep, which was the augmented or the annotated thesis. 100 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:57,000 Everyone talks about annotating your thesis or be reading it before the viva. 101 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:01,000 I came across a term in a podcast called Viva Survivors, 102 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:07,000 which I'm sure people listening to this podcast may already have heard, and we'll put a link to it in the show notes. 103 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:13,000 But the advice there was to think of notes you add to your thesis as augmenting them. 104 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:17,000 The point being that you're making those notes so that you can further them in the Vivas. 105 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:24,000 So you want to make your thesis more navigable for you. You want to make your thesis more friendly for you. 106 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:28,000 And you want to make your thesis. Searchable figures. 107 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,000 Yes. And that's precisely what the notes were about. 108 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:38,000 I divided my notes into three types, a different colour highlighter for each one typos, which rapidly became just a list at the end instead. 109 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:47,000 That was much easier. Yes. Danger points, which were things I suspected will be picked up on no relation to Danger Mouse. 110 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:53,000 And then also points for expansions are things I've discovered since submission 111 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:58,000 or things I thought I could say more on if I if I were given the opportunity. 112 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:02,000 Those were the ones where I knew I could go off on a little kind of excitable tangent, 113 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,000 which is something I'm sure we'll talk about in the viva itself. 114 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:16,000 So those were the two steps really of prep the beforehand the kind of discovery about the viva and the initial thinking about how I'd approach it. 115 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:24,000 And then the actual sitting down and reading through the thesis again and augmenting the reading through it actually took place fairly later on. 116 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:33,000 So I, I finished reading it. You know, in the days before the viva rather than like a month beforehand, that. 117 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:38,000 But I imagine that is even more fresh in your mind. Yes, that's one advantage of doing it that way. 118 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:44,000 You're absolutely right. So did you do any kind of did you a mock viva? 119 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,000 Did you do any practise aloud of answering the 120 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:53,000 You know, you said about your nightmare sheet. Did you practise verbally the answers to those questions or was it all very kind of 121 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:59,000 The augmentation and the prep documents were paper based. I wondered if you did anything. 122 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:04,000 So I've. Try to sort of speak about my research. 123 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:11,000 Throughout my thesis, I'm quite lucky to have been given the chance to do that and we've taken the chance to do that in various places. 124 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:17,000 So it wasn't my first time speaking about my thesis in in some detail. 125 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:22,000 And I think that's one of the reasons I didn't do a full mock vivA. 126 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:28,000 What I did do, though, is on the morning of my of my thesis, Viva I. 127 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:33,000 I was lucky enough to meet my supervisor and said to him, Wait. Could I ask a favour? 128 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,000 Would you be willing to make me uncomfortable? 129 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:45,000 You ask me all of the really, really hard questions that I don't want to be asked, as unreasonable as you might think they are having you. 130 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:51,000 And they've been with me on this thesis journey. Can you put me on the spot, please? 131 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,000 And then we'll discuss the responses I give to that. 132 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,000 And obviously, that was basically a chance for me to practise, referring to the nightmare scenario sheet. 133 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:04,000 And how was that? Supposing you were awkward, because my supervisor, when I get on quite well. 134 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:12,000 So it was very strange to hear him picking up so many things that we'd already discussed. 135 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:19,000 Obviously, there was. This is the other danger of doing that. Yeah. There was another practical issue on my part, which is I don't. 136 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:26,000 In order to have a mock viva, in some respects, that needs to be done with people who are intimately familiar with your thesis. 137 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:32,000 And that wasn't necessarily the case for me, that there were that many people who could do that. 138 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,000 Yes, of course, it depends a lot on the department that you're in. 139 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:43,000 I would always advocate making the mock viva's something you're doing for years rather than something that you have before the Viva. 140 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:50,000 But of course, it is a really useful tool. I know plenty of people who've had one and would recommend one as an essential part of it. 141 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,000 Yeah, and I think that's part of the kind of the subjective nature of this. 142 00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:00,000 You know, it's about finding the kind of preparation that works for you. 143 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:08,000 So you've said about the morning of the viva, you speak to your supervisor, got them to ask you awkward questions. 144 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:14,000 And we mentioned earlier your viva was online as so many Vivas that are taking place now. 145 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:22,000 Ah. And I would imagine increasingly in the future and the majority of vivas will be at the very least blended, if not online. 146 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:30,000 Can you talk a little bit about your feelings about doing the Viva online So online vivas 147 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,000 I think, as you say, it's going to become more and more the norm. 148 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:41,000 Yeah. In the future, even after restrictions are eased. 149 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:48,000 I myself didn't have too many qualms about doing my Viva online it 150 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:57,000 Didn't seem to me to be a huge change, and in some respects it has its own advantages, which we'll talk about later, I'm sure. 151 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:02,000 It was nerve wracking, of course, being on my own in a room. 152 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,000 I was basically in my flat before the viva started. 153 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:11,000 And I was just sitting there looking at this incoming teamn notifcation called Edward Mills. 154 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:16,000 Viva which is faintly errifying. Yeah, rather ominous name for me. 155 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:22,000 I did have to go and stick a sign on my on my flat door saying, please don't disturb. 156 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:27,000 Viva in progress. Thanks very much. Say it was. 157 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:39,000 It was an. Ominous and slightly nerve wracking experience, but it's not as big a deal beforehand as I'd expected it to be. 158 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:44,000 Indeed, during the Viva itself, I guess there's all that much to say about the fact that it was online. 159 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:49,000 And that seems to be what so initially when, you know, all these things started moving online, 160 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,000 one of the conversations a lot people were having was kind of like, we know how do we support be able to do online? 161 00:16:53,000 --> 00:17:02,000 And as people started to do them and upgrade Vivas as well. The thing that came back was actually materially it's not very different. 162 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:08,000 No. And we did have a requirement to say this was myself. 163 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:14,000 The were all those in attendance. So myself, the internal, the external. 164 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:19,000 And there was a chair as well in my viva, a non examining independent chair 165 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,000 Yes. 166 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:29,000 To say that we did not feel that the viva had been conducted unfairly and that we did not feel that there was any detriment to having conducted online. 167 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:36,000 That's a very important thing to note. Having the viva online did have one advantage to it, and this is, again, 168 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:42,000 something that I checked with the chair during the viva itself, which is I was able to share my screen. 169 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:48,000 Yes. And this is one practical thing that I found very, very useful because I was able to pull up. 170 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,000 In my specific case, I work a lot with mediaeval manuscripts. 171 00:17:52,000 --> 00:18:01,000 So in my case, I was able to pull up images and to show those images in a greater resolution than could be shown in the images from my thesis. 172 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:09,000 Absolutely. And certainly, you know, in a Face-To-Face viva, you could take in a USB stick with similar content on. 173 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:15,000 And then if you were asked and there's usually a computer in a room because when when isn't there a computer in a room these days? 174 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:22,000 You could show it, but much, much less clunky and much easier to kind of prepare for and to do in the moment. 175 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:28,000 And also, of course, having a PDF copy of your thesis on the computer in front of you means it's searchable. 176 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,000 you probably remember I checked this with you before the viva 177 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:37,000 Whether this was alright or not Yes. But you can just control F and find a particular term. 178 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:42,000 And then flick to that page in your in your printed theses, which I would very much recommend you. 179 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:48,000 You have for anyone who's visualising this at home, by the way, I have this on  the table in front of me right now. 180 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:56,000 This is what thesis sounds like. Sorry. I'm sure anyone who wasn't expecting that will thank me. 181 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:01,000 Their ears will thank you later. Yes. I believe the phrase is RIP headphone users. 182 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:09,000 Yes. Really sorry. So. How long was your viva? 183 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:19,000 Long, very long, specifically four hours, which I'm not I'm not gasping in a in in shock because I already knew this. 184 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:27,000 This is why I asked you. But the so at Exeter four hours is the absolute absolute maximum. 185 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:36,000 It could be. Yes, it is. Yeah. And isn't it right that your examiners spent basically no time discussing the outcome because 186 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,000 they had to get the result back to you and do all of that within that four hour time limit? 187 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:48,000 Yes. So if I remember this correctly, we had a two hour slot, basically, then another two hour slots. 188 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:54,000 We had a break in the middle, which was ten minutes. We went through it chapter by chapter. 189 00:19:54,000 --> 00:20:00,000 So the break came after about two hours for about 10 minutes or so. 190 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:13,000 And then after that, just about three hours and 40 minutes into the viva and the chair pointed out that they had to finish the viva soon 191 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,000 And therefore, I was asked to leave the room, the virtual room. 192 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,000 This is the thing people have asked this in. Q And A's I've been involved with since then. 193 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:28,000 Yes. So leaving the room literally means, in this case, hanging up the teams call and then rejoining 10 minutes later. 194 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:34,000 What did you do in that 10 minutes? Mostly pacing nervously around my small flat. 195 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:40,000 Yeah. Guess at least if you're in the department, your your supervisor will , will be physically there, 196 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:47,000 and people tend to go to people's offices or they'll go to their office or, you know, they'll have people to interact with. 197 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,000 That must have been even though it was only ten minutes. 198 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:55,000 It must have been an incredibly nerve wracking ten minutes. Yeah, it was nerve wracking. 199 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,000 There's actually no requirement for supervisors to attend. 200 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:02,000 No, it's it's an option. Yes. Many supervisors might want to. 201 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:07,000 My supervisor was very keen to give me the choice of of him not attending if if I'd rather not. 202 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:15,000 Yes. I was perfectly happy for him to attend. And in fact, it was slightly easier in some respects than it would have been if I had been in in person, 203 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:21,000 rather because he was able to mite himself and turn off his video. So he was in kind of unannounced observing background. 204 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,000 Yes. Which which is if you're doing it face to face, exactly how it should be. 205 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:30,000 Yes. So. How was it four hours? 206 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:36,000 I mean, for a lot of people who listening to this, that's going to sound like a horror story. 207 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:45,000 So tell us how it was. Well, I think the first thing to say is it was four hours because there was a lot to talk about. 208 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:51,000 Not four hours because they were testing how long I could go without having a drink over a cup of coffee. 209 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,000 Incidentally, the answer to that question is four hours. Yes. 210 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,000 Generally, though, the viva was a really positive experience. 211 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:03,000 And that's not something that I was expecting. 212 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,000 It's something that you hear from. A lot of people say no, actually really enjoyed them all the time. 213 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:19,000 But going into the viva, I did not expect that my my pathological fear was of major corrections or revise and resubmit 214 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:29,000 And neither that is necessarily bad outcomes. It's important to say, but I had it in my head that they were. 215 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:35,000 But if I can enjoy the Viva. Anyone can, because I was terrified beforehand, is what you say about that. 216 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:43,000 Yes. So in terms of how the viva actually went. Each of my examiners took the lead on a different Chapter 217 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:51,000 It just so happened that my internal examiner was an expert in one of the things I discussed in the chapter, which, you know, is not always the case. 218 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:56,000 No. And it's not always the case that they do go that kind of chronologically through their thesis. 219 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:02,000 It's much more common in the sciences, but less so in the humanities. So it seems like it's interesting. 220 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,000 Interesting that they took that approach. Yeah. 221 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:08,000 It's worth noting the examiners did explain at the start of the viva what they'd done 222 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:13,000 What they'd done beforehand, which is that they'd met together. And then they'd compared notes. 223 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:19,000 Yes. So they clearly had a strategy in mind, like in terms of what actually happened. 224 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:26,000 First, we had a little bit of admin at the start where the way the chair sort of clarified what 225 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:32,000 would be going on and what her role was and asked if you had any Gwenny questions and, 226 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,000 you know, maximum time limits and so on and so forth. 227 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:43,000 But I was very lucky, actually, in that my internal took the lead on a lot of the a lot of the kind of admin stuff. 228 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:50,000 And as a way into the viva itself, she actually explained what the thesis was measuring. 229 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,000 And I'm sure that the... You mean the examination criteria? 230 00:23:54,000 --> 00:24:02,000 Yes. Things like the ability to create new knowledge and satisfactory literary presentation, listening presentation, conceptualising a project, adjusting its design. 231 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,000 Those five ideas, I'm sure listeners to this podcast have come across before. 232 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:17,000 Yeah. So how did they start the questioning? Well, they started by telling me that I had passed 233 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,000 They did not tell me what kind of pass it was. Yeah. 234 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:26,000 So that's. Again, that's relatively unusual. 235 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:33,000 So a pass would mean you would be one of a kind of three of the four possible options, an outcome. 236 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,000 So you either, no corrections, minor corrections or major corrections. 237 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:41,000 And it's important to say that it's not common practise necessarily to do that. 238 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:49,000 Some examiners do, some examiners don't. But if they don't do that, it doesn't mean that you've got to revise and resubmit or anything like that. 239 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,000 It's just it's a stylistic thing. 240 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:59,000 It's also worth saying, I think, that they were not saying, as you probably pointed out, that I had passed with minor corrections. 241 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:06,000 They were simply saying that I would not have a revise and resubmit, which again, is not necessarily a comment on the quality of the thesis. 242 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:14,000 You've said before that. They reflects much more than just how good or bad the thesis is in and of itself. 243 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:19,000 Questions about the scope of the thesis and so on come into the decision for revise and resubmit 244 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,000 Oh, yeah. But it's it's a complex. So it's a complex. 245 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:28,000 Yes. Yeah. It really is thing. And a lot of it is the difference between certainly between minor. 246 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:35,000 and major is still the amount of time it would take you to do the corrections rather than the supposed flaws or weakness in the thesis, 247 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,000 which I think is how, you know, when you were saying about you were concerned about getting you know, 248 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:44,000 you were convinced it was going to be major corrections or a revise and resubmit. We tend to think about that on a kind of. 249 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:49,000 You said it yourself. Good or bad, pass or fail. And flaw based model. 250 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:57,000 Whereas actually, it's it's not about that. It's about what needs to be done to bring the thesis to a pass 251 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,000 Yes. And what how long that will take. 252 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:11,000 Quite right. Yeah. My approach when I got told that it was a pass, I assumed that it was go they were going to be corrections. 253 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,000 I always assumed I would get corrections. I think that's a healthy way of doing it. 254 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,000 Statistically, much more likely. Yes. 255 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:28,000 And my decision when I heard that you've passed this is about improving and rendering the thesis was to say, okay. 256 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:33,000 Right. My job now for the next, however long it would be would be to convince the 257 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:39,000 examiners that I should be awarded minor corrections rather than major ones, 258 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:45,000 both by defending what could reasonably be defended and justified decisions I'd made, 259 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:53,000 and also by showing them through my knowledge of the topics and through my engagement with the thesis since the viva 260 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:58,000 that the changes that I would need to make, that I would not be able to sort of. 261 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:05,000 Justify not doing could be made sufficiently quickly for them to count as minor rather than major 262 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:10,000 which comes back to your point about how it's a time thing, rather than a quality thing. 263 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,000 So what kind of things did they ask you? 264 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:20,000 So some questions that they asked me were very specific, and I think that a lot of the time when people are prepping for the viva 265 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:26,000 what they want to know is what questions you ask, what questions you ask. And as a kind of what what questions am I going to be asked? 266 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:31,000 Whereas actually that there isn't a kind of apart from the warm up questions like. 267 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,000 So tell us a little bit about your argument or how you came to do this research. 268 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:41,000 The questions are so detailed and so specific that it's very difficult to kind of compare notes, 269 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,000 as it were, across different Vivas and across different topic areas. 270 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:51,000 Yes. So my question, for example, on my certain. 271 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:58,000 Lack of criticality in accepting a characterisation of Anglo norman literature as precocious 272 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:03,000 would probably not come up in most people's vivas to give an example of a very specific question. 273 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:10,000 However, the kind of general sentiment behind that would come up, which is a certain lack of political distance in adopting critical terms. 274 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:20,000 Yet another example of that. The first question I was asked in the entire Viva was. 275 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:26,000 How do you think your writing style affected Your argument? 276 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:31,000 Wow. Not that I have to say that's not what I've heard before or words to that effect. 277 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:42,000 And it came back to a tendency in my writing generally actually to set up binaries and work to 278 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,000 problematise, them? That's diving in at the deep end. 279 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:53,000 Even though those binaries might not necessarily be accurate. 280 00:28:53,000 --> 00:29:00,000 So I set myself up frameworks within which I have to work, which are occasionally a little bit restrictive in what they allow me to do. 281 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:06,000 And there were several examples of this throughout the thesis. But yes, it was diving in at the deep end. 282 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:12,000 It was an excellent question. I should add, my internal examiners had also been an examiner for my upgrade. 283 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:20,000 Viva! And what that meant was I was able to make connection between the upgrade viva the feedback and the Viva aims 284 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,000 So to give one example, 285 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:30,000 I would probably need to justify a slight methodological distinction between Chapter one and the rest of the thesis. 286 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:36,000 Chapter one is quite linguistic in its approach. The rest of the chapters are much more traditionally literary. 287 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:43,000 And in justifying that I went back to the feedback that I received in my upgrade viva from my upcoming internal examiner, 288 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:52,000 who suggested that I need to develop a methodology that ranges beyond the close reading to embrace theoretical insights related to my materials. 289 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,000 And I use the linguistic chapter as an example of how one might do that. 290 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:06,000 There were others throughout, of course, but that's an example of how the experience of the upgrade Viva actually helped me to develop the 291 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:13,000 viva itself when it came to sitting down in front of that same examiner again three years later. 292 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:18,000 That's really brilliant. And so what you know, you said that the questions are very specific. 293 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:26,000 And, you know, you had one about the writing style and kind of setting binaries and dichotomies and theoretical frameworks. 294 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:31,000 What other what other topic areas were the questions they asked you in? 295 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:37,000 So the question's broadly fail into sort of three groups, if you like. 296 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:43,000 They were often focussed around specific points in the thesis of why you characterised X as Y. 297 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:52,000 But for the broad trends, questions included why I chose to cover certain types of text in my thesis and not others. 298 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:58,000 So is that to do with my primary data kind of thing? Yes. Is to do with what my what my source material. 299 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:07,000 Yes. Yes. And also why not others related to that was why I'd chosen to focus on texts in French of mediaeval England as opposed to, 300 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,000 say, continental French material. And there were good answers to both of those. 301 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,000 One one acceptable answer is simply scope. 302 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:21,000 But there were also more discipline specific reasons, as well as to why the French in mediaeval England is worthy of study in its own right. 303 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,000 Yes, there were theoretical questions about the frameworks that I'd used. 304 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:30,000 So, for example, how I was how I was using certain tools from manuscript studies. 305 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,000 So to to look at some of these mediaeval books. 306 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:41,000 But one thing that stuck out at me was the tendency for the examiners to very kindly divide their feedback into kind of corrections and comments. 307 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:46,000 So did they articulate that in the in the viva? Were they making very clear what was a correction? 308 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,000 What were the comments? What they said was they would produce two reports effectively. 309 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,000 OK. And what they did in the end was use one report with a preface to all of the all 310 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:59,000 of the kind of things to highlight for possible future publication with comment. 311 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,000 And they were they saying that in the main body of the viva or just in the kind of feedback that. 312 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,000 No, they said fairly early on in the viva as well. 313 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,000 But I didn't know stage by stage as they went through what was what. 314 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,000 No, but that's a massive hint. It is. 315 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,000 And I was very fortunate in that respect. 316 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:22,000 And I know that's not that I may not be standard practise, although, of course, it's that there is no such thing as standard practise for either. 317 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:27,000 No. A lot of the time, you know, if if they think that it's, you know, there's nothing to worry about, 318 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,000 they will try their best to kind of indicate that to you in various ways, 319 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:38,000 like saying, you know, well, when you think about publishing this or they're not specific things to do with the examination and the outcome. 320 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:44,000 But there are ways to kind of guide you towards or at least sort of reassure you that this is going to be all right. 321 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,000 Don't worry. That's true. Although that doesn't necessarily mean that the comments for publication are Minor. 322 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,000 It's worth noting that the one of my comments, 323 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:57,000 if I want to publish one thing I these do is seriously reconsider the methodology behind one of my chapters. 324 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:02,000 Yeah. That does not make it ineligible at PhD level for an award. 325 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:10,000 No, but it was a an interesting sort of critical reflection on what might be needed to do how and when. 326 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,000 And I get the impression I'll be using the corrections that I've got. 327 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:20,000 Which Examiners is also worth stressing produce have to produce a written report on Viva with a list of corrections, 328 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,000 including typos that they would like you to make. 329 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:32,000 I'm going to be using this list of corrections for at least the next year rather than just to kind of get myself to the next hurdle, 330 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:39,000 which would be submitting my revisions. So where are you in the process now? 331 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:45,000 I'm currently at the stage of making the revisions that I have to make with a view to submitting them before Christmas. 332 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:57,000 If all goes well, it's an exciting time. I mean, I'm I'm very lucky in that the feedback that I've got is comprehensive, which means that I can. 333 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:06,000 Reflect on them. And there's plenty of material left to work with. So the report you've got are the corrections very specific? 334 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:11,000 Yes, they are indicated by page. Oh, wow. So I'll I'll give an example. 335 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:20,000 Yes. By all means. Yes. So. So, for example, I have on page 22 a comment saying, 336 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:26,000 why is the Anglo norman text society unusually assiduous as opposed to various other text editing bodies? 337 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,000 And then a wonderful comment here. Very few adverbs earned their place in prose. 338 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:38,000 And then you open up a can of worms worth scrutinising the impulse to use an adverb in most cases, and almost always an improvement to edit them out. 339 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:44,000 That's a very specific comment, but also a much broader idea about my writing style, which I very much appreciate it. 340 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,000 So you're working through the report? Yes, absolutely. 341 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:55,000 Enjoying turns of phrase like that is taking into account to make the thesis better. 342 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:02,000 That's one of the most exciting things, actually, about it. It's not just a question of taking another hoop to jump through. 343 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:08,000 It's about engaging again with something that I spent four years of my life very close to and developing 344 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:15,000 in collaboration with people who've read it very closely and have provided very detailed feedback. 345 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:20,000 So how much longer do you think you have to do on the corrections? 346 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:26,000 Not a huge amount more. I've had the meeting with my supervisor to discuss it on stage. 347 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:31,000 I'm starting to make the minor corrections, some of them I can make immediately. 348 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,000 A lot of them are typos. 349 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:40,000 I have a list that I provided, a list in the viva itself, which got some went some way to suggesting that I there would be minor changes. 350 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:46,000 What the major ones I would hope. I'm anticipating I should get it done before Christmas, as I say. 351 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:51,000 And that's alongside other work that I am taking on the moment as well. 352 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,000 And I guess that's that's the final question. 353 00:35:53,000 --> 00:36:03,000 What next or afterwards when you finally get that email that says, Dear Dr. Edward Mills, what are you gonna be doing? 354 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:08,000 Probably doing a happy little dance around the kitchen is the honest answer to that. 355 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:13,000 First of all, good. I'm very, very fortunate to be involved in some some postdoc work. 356 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:19,000 And, um, I'm exploring my options at the moment. If anyone needs Star Trek, translated into Anglo Norman French. 357 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,000 I strongly encourage you to contact me. Oh, wow. I really. 358 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:29,000 I've done this. Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah, it's niche. But then niche is kind of a PhD anyway, isn't it. 359 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:39,000 It really is. So you you said earlier on that in the run up to your viva, you asked people that you knew that had done vivas 360 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:47,000 What kind of advice they had ans. What would you do now that you've had your viva? 361 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:53,000 What would you say? What are you going to say when inevitably other students ask you that question? 362 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:59,000 Not any piece of advice, but something that I didn't believe at first. 363 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:05,000 Everyone says going into the PhD viva either you're the expert, you're the expert, you're the expert. 364 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:10,000 I did not believe that. No-one does. Well, few people believe that. 365 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:18,000 But as someone who didn't think that he was the expert until he was given some positive feedback in the viva. 366 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:23,000 And who even now really doubts that he knows anything at all. 367 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:29,000 You are the expert. You really are. And if you can believe that even slightly before the viva, 368 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:34,000 you put yourself in a much stronger position to take criticism and take comments on board for what they are, 369 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:42,000 which is not attempts to bring you down for the sake of it. But attempts in good faith to improve a piece of work that. 370 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:50,000 The examiners, in all likelihood, really enjoyed reading. Thank you so much, Edward, for taking the time to talk to me again, 371 00:37:50,000 --> 00:38:01,000 particularly during the busy period of doing those corrections alongside other work, which I am sure he is eager to get done as quickly as possible. 372 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:32,885 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to, like, rare and subscribe and join me next time whn I'll be talking to someone else about researchers, development, and everything in between  

In this episode I talk to Dr. Jonathan Doney, Lecturere at the University of Exeter about the process of getting his PhD and postdoc research published as a book.    Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/    Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Hello and welcome, R, D And the in betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,000 and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:39,000 Hello and welcome to this episode of T, F and the In Betweens. I'm delighted this episode to be talking to my colleague, Dr. Jonathan Doney. 4 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:44,000 Jonathan and I are gonna be talking about publishing research as a book and 5 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,000 specifically being unsuccessful in trying to get your thesis published as a book. 6 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:59,000 But thinking about how that material and the learning from the process of failure or rejection can inform other opportunities further down the line. 7 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:04,000 So, Jonathan, are you happy to introduce yourself? I'm Dr. Jonathan Doney 8 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:09,000 I'm a lecturer in education at the School of Education, University of Exeter. 9 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:16,000 And my specialism in teaching is history of education and education policy. 10 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:26,000 All right. Thank you very much. And so we we're going to talk today a little bit about experiences of kind of book publishing processes, 11 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,000 because one of the things that particularly humanities and social science students, 12 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:37,000 when they come out of that research degree, often thinking about the kind of, you know, can I publish my thesis as a book? 13 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:42,000 And that is something that you tried to do. Is that right? That's right. 14 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,000 Yeah. With without a huge success, I would say. 15 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:52,000 But I did learn a lot of lessons from from that process, which I'm willing, willing and happy to share. 16 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:59,000 So how did when you decided that you were when you were thinking about publishing your thesis as a book, what kind of. 17 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:04,000 How did you go about investigating whether or not that was possible? 18 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:15,000 OK, so that might be helpful to give a bit of background and context to my sort of wider academic networks involvement, 19 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:23,000 because I at that point, I had been a co-editor of a journal in the history of education with my supervisor. 20 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:29,000 We shared it. And so I was kind of used to dealing with editors. 21 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,000 Understanding the process of peer review and things like that. 22 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:40,000 And I got in touch with a couple of people from different publishing houses who were very keen. 23 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:48,000 You know, you've just done a PhD. We would love to publish it. They tended to be I think the term used is vanity publisher. 24 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:56,000 So these publishers where you pay a large sum of money and they publish your book as a monograph. 25 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:02,000 First of all, I didn't have a large sum of money because I've just been a grad student for three years. 26 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:11,000 But also, I was warned by by my  sort of academic champions that what you really need is a book that is published by a reputable company. 27 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:20,000 So go to Palgrave, go to Routledge, go to someone like that and see if they'll publish it. 28 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:26,000 So I approached I approached someone I knew at palgrave, and they said, oh, yes, we got a lot of this kind of thing. 29 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:39,000 Here are some information about how to basically how to show us that you are preparing a book and not just changing a couple of words in a thesis. 30 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:44,000 I think that was really useful because, you know, a thesis is written for examiners and no one else really. 31 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,000 I mean, maybe those who who love you or who you love might read the acknowledgements. 32 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:55,000 But on the whole, a thesis is written with the examiners in mind that they are your audience. 33 00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:01,000 And so the suggestion really was that you don't just say, let's change a few bits. 34 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:08,000 You actually take the content of your thesis and restructure it, maybe rework it. 35 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:13,000 So instead of thinking what I'm gonna do is quickly convert a thesis into a book. 36 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:19,000 Actually, what you do is think I'm going to write a book for which I already have the bulk of the content, 37 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:25,000 but I need to express some of that in different ways. I need to give a different sort of introduction. 38 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:32,000 Maybe I need to express some of the findings in more in broad terms for a wider audience. 39 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:45,000 So I sort of sat down with this guidance and prepared the proposal, which was basically my PhD for a different audience, My PhD is 40 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:53,000 quite different from a lot of PhDs because my main contribution to knowledge is a methodological one. 41 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:58,000 So might be PdD basically started off as a historical enquiry that ended up being. 42 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:09,000 Here's a new method for undertaking historical enquiry. But I'd frame in the in the material I submitted, first of all, I framed it as the content. 43 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:17,000 The history of religious education, that's got a very short list of people who'd want to read it. 44 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:24,000 And so far, in preparation for this podcast, I looked back at some of the feedback I got on my initial thing, 45 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,000 and it was, you know, this is a really interesting method. It's a very interesting proposal. 46 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:35,000 But the audience is so limited that we can't suggest that it's printed. 47 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:44,000 So the sense I had was I'd miss the target. Because what what book publishers want is something that's gonna sell. 48 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,000 Because that's how to make their money. 49 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:55,000 The history of R.E. in the 1960s in England, however much I want it to be the case, is never going to be in the top 10 in the Times. 50 00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:03,000 Weelend supplements. So the feedback, as I say, was, you know, it's interesting but not interesting enough. 51 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:12,000 It's too niche. It's too specialised. I spoke to another a couple of other editors and they said, you know, broadly speaking, 52 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:19,000 the fundamental thing that editors, you know, commissioning editors looking for is will this sell? 53 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:28,000 Will it be a textbook? So actually, what I did is looked again at the content. 54 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:36,000 And said, I don't think I would buy that book. To be honest. What did that feel like for them to come back and sort of basically say. 55 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:42,000 Yeah, it's interesting, but it's not interesting enough, given that you kind of dedicate three years of your life to this work. 56 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:48,000 And obviously you do find it interesting and there are many other people to find interesting, obviously. 57 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:54,000 Well, I wouldn't say many others, Kelly, but few I think on the one hand, 58 00:06:54,000 --> 00:07:00,000 I was I obviously I was disappointed because my my career plan was finished at the PhD 59 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:10,000 publish a monograph be the expert, get a job, you know, easy pathway to Professorial appointment. 60 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:16,000 I think I think I agreed with some of the feedback, which shocked me slightly. 61 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:22,000 I mean, I know I know that my area is niche and I know that it's very specialised. 62 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:27,000 Now, obviously, I'm saying that with the benefit of hindsight, since then, I've had a book contract and I've submitted a manuscript. 63 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:33,000 So that is obviously going to change. Changed my view on the feedback. 64 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:41,000 I think what I also learnt what what I also felt with some of the feedback was it's actually very personal. 65 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:49,000 And I've since discovered that both for that and an unsuccessful submission for the later book were sent to 66 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:59,000 people in my field because my field is narrow who think that my cutting edge approach is inappropriate. 67 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:07,000 And so some of the feedback was actually quite personal. I'm not that was difficult to deal with because it was it was the typical reviewer two. 68 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:15,000 You know, if I was writing this book, I would have written something else. And the reasons I would have written those is because you're wrong. 69 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:21,000 So that that was harder. I think that the rejection per say, if that makes sense. 70 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:28,000 That's a really important thing to acknowledge, is kind of, you know, you appreciate that you agree with some of the feedback. 71 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:35,000 But also, you know, even though we we talk about kind of peer review as this wonderful objective, 72 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:44,000 kind of idealised process, actually it is incredibly subjective. Fast forward a little bit then to the book. 73 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:53,000 That you're working on now, say. This is come out of the original book that you proposed out of your thesis that. 74 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:57,000 Had that wasn't accepted. That's right, isn't it? Yeah. 75 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:07,000 I mean, it's kind of it's a development in two ways. So first of all, I applied and was successful in getting a British Academy postdoc fellowship. 76 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:18,000 After my PhD and that project was basically to take the method that I devised in my PhD and use it in a broad sweep of education policy, 77 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:22,000 still focussed on religious education, but rather than just one event. 78 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:28,000 Looking at a series of events from nineteen forty four to the present day. 79 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,000 And so that that sort of expanded the horizon. 80 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:42,000 But also as part of that, there was an opportunity to be published through the British Academy imprint, which is with Oxford University Press. 81 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:51,000 So I applied for that opportunity. And again, the feedback, the feedback from one reviewer was, you know, this is really interesting, 82 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:57,000 potentially very important methodology could be useful across a broad spectrum of policy areas. 83 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,000 And another one was basically this is this is not a good idea. 84 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:11,000 This is completely inappropriate. Straight. You know, I'm disappointed that the writer has not referred to the work of Scholar X. 85 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:17,000 That Scholar X, being the person who done the review, is the typical kind of you haven't done what I would have done. 86 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,000 Yes. So the British Academy said no. 87 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:29,000 Which was disappointing again, because obviously having an Oxford University publication would have been a good career starter. 88 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:36,000 But what I did is I took I took the proposal that I prepared for that to another publisher. 89 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:46,000 I don't think I changed any of it and simply said, please don't send it to Scholar X for review. 90 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,000 And because, you know, I was advised that that is possible. 91 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,000 And I thought, you know, and I said, you know, if you need more information about why, they were like, no, that's fine. 92 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:59,000 You know, we recognised that there were people who are not appropriate. So we sent it to others. 93 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:07,000 And it came back with, you know, a couple of suggestions of how I might slightly improve the text along the lines of, 94 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,000 you know, some of the work I've done is international comparison. 95 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:17,000 And then one of the comments was just make the reason for the international comparison a little bit more obvious. 96 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:25,000 But otherwise, they accepted it. They wanted to change the title and the title they proposed 97 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:33,000 I was not happy with. And I was I was stuck because I thought, well, you know, I'm on the cusp of a monograph. 98 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:38,000 Contract. Do I want to argue about the title? Well, I do. 99 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,000 I care about the title and they accepted the title I suggested. 100 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,000 So both in the title and in the content of the book, 101 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:53,000 the book is now very much a methodological explanation and guide to statement archaeology, which is my thing. 102 00:11:53,000 --> 00:12:07,000 Yeah. And it uses a series of case studies from RE, two of which came from the page day and two of which are more recent work as part of the postdoc. 103 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:13,000 So in that respect, significant elements of the PhD are now included in the monograph, 104 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:20,000 a couple of other bits I've published separately as journal articles. And the method, 105 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,000 the method sort of which begins and ends is that the monograph to be published early 106 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:30,000 next year hopefully is just an extension of the material I've prepared for the PhD. 107 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:36,000 So it kind of feels like it is the monograph from the thesis with a couple of bits at it. 108 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:42,000 But it's restructured in quite a significant way. So that instead of being a book about the history of R.E., 109 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:51,000 it's a book about statement archaeology and the history of RE is the basis of the worked examples, but all the way through it's as you know. 110 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:56,000 And think about how you would use this in your study. This is the kind of question that I have asked here. 111 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:02,000 What kind of question would you ask? And so on. So it is quite a different beast now from what it was. 112 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:13,000 And I think I think because of why it has a better position in the market and will be useful to to people who are interested in RE 113 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:20,000 And I think it's that that's seems to be say the things that when I talk to people like that this is published, 114 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,000 that's this this seems to be the core of it is actually, you know, 115 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:29,000 it's you hope it might just be changing a few words here and there, but it's actually, 116 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:33,000 in a lot of cases, a complete reframing because like you said, you write a thesis for your examiners. 117 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:39,000 It's for a very particular audience in a very particular and go. 118 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:45,000 And so it's constructed in a very particular way. And if you were kind of wanting to reach the wider academic audience, 119 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:53,000 but also the kind of potentially the wider, you know, a student and or public audience, actually, 120 00:13:53,000 --> 00:14:05,000 a lot of people are reframing the work based on what is what is more of interest to the field rather than kind of the requirements of examination. 121 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:12,000 I think that's absolutely right. And I think I would encourage people when they're thinking about how to develop their thesis 122 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:18,000 into a book is is think about as many different possible groupings who might be interested. 123 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:25,000 So, I mean, like I say, my book is primarily a methodological handbook with a lot of stuff about religious education policy, 124 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:33,000 but actually the audience that would be interested. You've got masters level students undertaking their own research projects, PhD students 125 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:41,000 but you've also got historians of education policy makers and policy shapers, people who are interested in social history. 126 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:46,000 You know, there's quite a lot of social history and contextualising some of these policy moves, 127 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,000 initial teacher trainees who are going to go into the humanities. 128 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:57,000 So think as broadly as possible about who might read your book and how you can sort of tick as many boxes. 129 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,000 And one of the big things I say, you know, from experience is if there's an international market. 130 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,000 So I think I added a paragraph about the US. 131 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:10,000 I've got quite a lot of stuff in there already about Scandinavia, because that's where I do my comparison. 132 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:11,000 That ticks an international box, 133 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:19,000 which which keeps publishers happy because they can then think about marketing this book beyond beyond our own shores, 134 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:26,000 whether it's into Europe or the US or any sort of Anglophone type country. 135 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:34,000 So think broadly and then kind of write in a way that tickles the ears of those sorts of people. 136 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:41,000 It is going from the very specific niche kind of contribution that you make in the thesis. 137 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:49,000 And broadening back out again, kind of doing, almost doing, going in the opposite direction to what you've been. 138 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,000 Well, you've been doing for a number of years. I think so, yeah. 139 00:15:53,000 --> 00:16:01,000 I mean, I know some of the some of the books, the monographs that I've read that have been theses. 140 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:06,000 They maintain the level of detail that PhD thesis requires. 141 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:17,000 But they contextualise it differently if that makes sense. Whereas I think probably I would argue for mine, I, I stepped back from some of the detail. 142 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:24,000 For example, you know, I had five or six thousand words just on how Foucault does historical enquiry. 143 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:29,000 Now most sane people would say that's too much in a thesis, let alone a book. 144 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,000 I think I've got a page and a half in the book about it. 145 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:38,000 I mean, the other thing that you can do, which I did quite often, is where you where you don't want to move away from the detail. 146 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:48,000 You can write in general terms in the book and you can reference your PhD because with, you know, the library there available for people to consult. 147 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:56,000 Absolutely. And so you don't have to give up that sense of of the detail and the richness and the integrity of what you did. 148 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:03,000 Thinking a little bit more about the process, because I think that's something that feels really almost mystical to people. 149 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:10,000 So you sent in a proposal. So what kind of format did that take? 150 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:16,000 So most publishing houses that I'm aware of will publish their format. 151 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,000 You know, if you look look on the Web site for all, you know, 152 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:24,000 authors submission to and then your chosen publisher, yeah, they will usually have some kind of pro forma. 153 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:33,000 And is it you know that there are similarities. So, you know, I proposed title give a 300 word description of what the book is. 154 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:43,000 You usually have to give chapter outlines, you know, chapter title, what the chapter will cover, how many words you expect it to be. 155 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,000 And quite a lot of stuff about intended audience. Yeah. 156 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:53,000 And also an analysis of competitor. Competitor titles. 157 00:17:53,000 --> 00:18:03,000 So by being in the system of submitting author, I've also been asked to review a few publications in my field and proposals. 158 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:07,000 And some of them, you know, this is this is the only book on this topic. 159 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:12,000 It's essential because it's core reading for these modules and others. 160 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:19,000 You get a list of fifteen or twenty competitor titles and nothing about why this is different. 161 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:28,000 Yeah, I think those kind of really those kind of marketing positioning in the market kind of questions are quite important. 162 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:37,000 And I guess if that's got a lot of similarities to how you position the the scholarship is kind of filling a. 163 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,000 A gap is as having originality. 164 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:48,000 It's just thinking about it in less in terms of original contribution to knowledge as it is to mark, as is thinking about the market. 165 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:54,000 It's a sounds like it's doing something very similar. I think it's a similar kind of approach in the mind. 166 00:18:54,000 --> 00:19:00,000 You know, that's the kind of thing you have to think of. Why what is it that I'm going to do that either hasn't been done before? 167 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:06,000 Or I mean, one thing that I've seen quite often is books that have been published 30 years ago. 168 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,000 There are key texts here, you know, are out of date. 169 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:16,000 And this this will update the established scholarship in the field, kind of saying. 170 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:23,000 So those kinds of things are important. I was very lucky because because of my sort of contacts, 171 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:33,000 I had someone who had recently submitted a successful book proposal to Oxford University Press, and they sent me their proposal. 172 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:41,000 And obviously, the topics were completely different. The structure was different. But you kind of get an idea of what kind of things make this. 173 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:46,000 It's a bit like doing a funding bid or an application for a funded PhD 174 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:51,000 You know, if you look at successful ones, you kind of get an idea of what what works. 175 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:57,000 Yeah. So I would encourage, you know, particularly early career academics if they're looking for that. 176 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:06,000 Ask your ask your existing networks, even if their fields are slightly different or their topics are slightly different. 177 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:12,000 And I'm always willing to share my my proposals both for funding and for publication, 178 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:18,000 because I think one of the ways we learn how to do it is by looking at ones that I've worked, say. 179 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,000 You submit the proposal, they got back and said, yep, no, no. 180 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:27,000 Oh, no. If only it was as easy as that. So I submitted. 181 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,000 I submitted to Routledge and Routledge, published on their website. 182 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:37,000 Who they're commissioning editors are for different fields now because of a project I'd worked on with other colleagues. 183 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:48,000 There is someone who worked in religious education. So what I did first was sent the proposal to him and said, I realise this may not be your field, 184 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:52,000 but, you know, could you have a quick look because there was already some kind of relationship. 185 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,000 Could you have a quick look and or let me know who I should send it to? Yeah. 186 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:02,000 And he said, oh, yes, the person you need is my colleague so-and-so. So I sent it to her. 187 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:09,000 I actually see she used the policy editorial lead because that's where the book has been. 188 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,000 That's another thing to sort of perhaps come back to is where do you position your book? 189 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:20,000 Yeah. So she had a quick look at it and said, let's have a quick chat. 190 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:27,000 There was an initial just one to one conversation with her, and she said, I think, you know, add some detail to this, maybe change there. 191 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:33,000 Be open to the possibility of the title being being adapted. 192 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:39,000 Once I'd done that, she then takes it to the editorial board meeting. 193 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:44,000 You know, with her support, they came back with a couple of suggestions. 194 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:51,000 Sorry. And in between that, I discussed it with her. Then it went to review and I had the reviewers comments back to me. 195 00:21:51,000 --> 00:22:03,000 Yeah. To change the proposal before it went to the editorial board and the editorial board agreed it subject to a change of title. 196 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:09,000 And then once once they agreed and you've agreed with them the changes, 197 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:16,000 you get offered a contract and the contract is to produce the manuscript within a given amount of time. 198 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:26,000 So how long did that take between, say, between the kind of initial contact and getting the contract? 199 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:30,000 So I think the initial contact was January, and I signed the contract in September. 200 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:39,000 Wow. Now, that's partly because my commissioning editor was off sick for a while, but I mean, that's not an unusual. 201 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:44,000 It's not an unusual timescale, particularly if there is a bit of to ing and fro ing. 202 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:53,000 Yeah. And I think it also depends on the publishing house, because I think some some that have big structures, 203 00:22:53,000 --> 00:23:03,000 you might send it to the person you think and they they without you knowing, send it on to a colleague before it even gets any kind of indication. 204 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:11,000 It's a really important thing to be aware of that actually, when it comes to book publishing, things can move incredibly slowly. 205 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,000 Yeah, I think I think that's right. 206 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:23,000 And I think I mean, if it taking the whole thing from when I first approached that publisher, which was what do we know, it was January. 207 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:31,000 Twenty, eighteen. And I I have just finished completing the page proofs in the last couple of days. 208 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:36,000 Wow. So there'll still be another month or so before it goes to press. 209 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:43,000 Yes. But, you know, obviously part of that time I've been writing the book. 210 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:50,000 Because one thing I didn't want to do, what some people do is they write the book and then they submit a proposal and then they might 211 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:57,000 have to do quite a lot of changing according to what proposal changes the editorial board require. 212 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:04,000 Whereas I had the structure of the book in my mind and then I've written it according to the proposal, we've agreed. 213 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,000 So I guess I've got two questions. And on that say, I mean. 214 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:14,000 Even though you have the structure, you you know, you hadn't written the thing as a as a whole before you went to proposal. 215 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:23,000 It sounds like from your from your the you from your PhD n and from the that you wrote it on you. 216 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:28,000 I'm guessing you had quite a reasonable amount of text already. 217 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,000 I had the basis of a lot of the time. I mean, for the two chapters that came from the PhD 218 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:38,000 It wasn't a copy. Copy and paste job. But it wasn't it wasn't a starting from scratch. 219 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:45,000 There were chunks, particularly chunks of primary evidence that I did just copy and paste across. 220 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:56,000 But I think what I would say is before I said send the book's proposal in, I knew what I'd found and I knew what the structure of the arguments were. 221 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:05,000 Yeah. Because, you know, I think for for this route, the book chapter summaries were about four or five hundred words per chapter. 222 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,000 Yeah, but you need to know enough about what you're gonna say. 223 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:17,000 What's your supporting evidence to be able to test to satisfy them that it's not just a you know, you can't be too general. 224 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:23,000 You have to be specific. Yeah. I'll talk about this act. I'll talk about these policymakers in the process. 225 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:30,000 When did you actually start writing the book? Did you wait until you got the contract or did you start kind of earlier? 226 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,000 What I think. 227 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:42,000 I'd started writing a book a while ago, probably after I finished my PhD, because because I knew that there were bits I wanted to publish. 228 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:48,000 So in terms of sort of text on page, I suppose by the time I submitted the proposal, 229 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:54,000 I might have had forty thousand words written out of eighty five thousand total. 230 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,000 Okay. So yeah, sort of with half of the book written. 231 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,000 I mean a lot of that was just plain old as it says in this paragraph. 232 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,000 Describe in this paragraph account for. Yeah. 233 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:14,000 And then you kind of fill those gaps in. But I was I'd heard stories of people who'd written a book. 234 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:21,000 Written a proposal based on the book they'd written, had the proposal talked around and accepted, and then they basically were starting again anyway. 235 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:26,000 Yeah, I thought the sensible thing was just, you know, it's bad enough write in one book. 236 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:31,000 I certainly did want away two for the price, you know, two books for one publication. 237 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:37,000 If that makes sense, you've got to be you've got to be persuasive enough to the publisher that they think. 238 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,000 I won't say they think you finish the book, but they think you can write the book. 239 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:49,000 And also, I didn't take before with a proposal. I had to send a completed chapter as an exemplar of my writing. 240 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:55,000 And that was one of the chapters that I'd already adapted from the PhD And that was that was okay. 241 00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:01,000 So by the time you getting to the point of writing and you've done the proposal, you submit the example chapter, 242 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:08,000 you've had all of these back and forth conversations, like you said, you've got such a clear idea of of where the market's going. 243 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:13,000 It's then kind of sitting down and doing the thing. 244 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:24,000 So we will momentarily we will gloss over the process of writing as if it it's an, you know, click your fingers magically. 245 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:33,000 It happened. So at what point did you send kind of drafts to your editor? 246 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:45,000 So I. I didn't. They they issued a contract and initially my contract was for the complete book to be ready in April this year. 247 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:56,000 OK. Once we got towards April, I sent a very, very nice email that said, you know, this is this is not going to happen by April. 248 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,000 Can I have till July? 249 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:07,000 And because I also wanted to push back the publication date for for strategic reasons, I didn't want the book published in the current REF cycle. 250 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:13,000 I wanted it published in the next REF cycle. So they said, well, yeah, bearing in mind you're not in a hurry to have it. 251 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:21,000 Then we're happy to put the date back. So I submitted the whole manuscript in July. 252 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:30,000 Yeah. And in the process after that is that, first of all, the editor who has commissioned the work reads the piece. 253 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:36,000 Yes. Basically to check that you've supplied what you agreed. Yes, of course. 254 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,000 So I think it was three or four week turnaround. 255 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:47,000 And I have an e-mail from her saying, you know, you've not only supplied what we asked for, but it's extremely well-written and very engaging. 256 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:57,000 Yes. Which is a technical book on a documentary analysis technique, I think is I said, can I put your comment on the back in the blurb? 257 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:03,000 Then it goes to copyediting that they then send back questions like, you know, 258 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:09,000 you've sometimes you've used ize, sometimes you use ise, which should it be throughout? 259 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:15,000 They ask questions about missing references or references are incomplete. 260 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:24,000 That takes about a month. Yeah. Then it goes to typesetting, and I think that took about another month. 261 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:33,000 So the best in a sense, the bits that they do take about a month, six weeks at a time, and then you get an email saying, hey, is your galley proofs. 262 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:39,000 Please let us have them back in three days. Oh, wow. Which I responded. 263 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:44,000 Thank you very much for the opportunity. I will have them within the next fortnight. 264 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,000 And so far it's been. Oh yes, of course. That's fine. Don't. 265 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:56,000 Don't be afraid to say to your publisher. Hang on a minute. You know, that's not a realistic timescale. 266 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:01,000 So the situation at the moment is that I've got I've got the marked up proofs I need to enter the 267 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:11,000 corrections onto the system and then I won't see the text again until I get physical copies delivered. 268 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,000 So there's no sort of submission of drafts along the way. 269 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:20,000 Certainly in my experience, I don't know how other publishers work, but my sense is that they're not interested. 270 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,000 Once they've awarded the contract, what they want is the finished text. 271 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:32,000 Yeah. So. At what point or is there a point at which it is going to go out to? 272 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:38,000 Review is again, so obviously the proposal went through a peer review process. But does the book, the manuscript as a whole. 273 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:44,000 Go out for a full review in any way? Well, with this one, no. 274 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,000 I've got friends who have published with Palgrave or when they submitted the 275 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:55,000 manuscript that was read by a couple of external readers before it was accepted. 276 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,000 Now, obviously, 277 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:07,000 my take on that is my book is such a close resemblance with the book that I was contracted to write that it didn't need to go out to review, 278 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:12,000 or it may simply be that that's just a delay in the process. 279 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:19,000 And, you know, usually there's some kind of reward, I suspect. So, you know, it costs it takes time. 280 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:26,000 I think that might vary by publisher. It's important to say that there will always be variations in inexactly. 281 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:31,000 How publishers deal with entry is different. These different elements say. 282 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:36,000 So the next time you see you see it, it's going to be. A physical copy. 283 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,000 It's gonna be a physical copy with. With covers and a title on it. 284 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:48,000 Which is gonna be quite scary, but also exciting. So have you seen things like cover art or anything? 285 00:31:48,000 --> 00:32:01,000 Yeah, I am. I was hoping I. I've got a friend who's got a picture that was painted by a relative after that relative had read some of Foucaults work. 286 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:06,000 And it's an amazing picture. I was hoping that that could be the cover of the book. 287 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:18,000 Because it's got that link with Foucault's theory. But I was sent a bland collection of 12 different covers from which I could choose one. 288 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:23,000 So I chose in consultation with my artistic director, my daughter. 289 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:29,000 I chose one. And they said, yeah, we can't use that one on your book because that's for a different series. 290 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:42,000 So in the end, I cover I've got it's not the one I've chosen, but it has the kind of corporate link with books in policy, 291 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,000 which is useful for me because I kind of wanted to position this more in policy 292 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:51,000 than in sort of religious education theology or anything else like that. 293 00:32:51,000 --> 00:33:02,000 So I'm not hugely unhappy with the outcome. But, you know, it shows you how constrained you are as an author about some of these decisions. 294 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:08,000 Yeah. And I think that the thing you said about the identifying it is so visually as corporately as policy. 295 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:18,000 It's interesting you mentioned that earlier about and about it being part of the policy series and the kind of positioning of the book. 296 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,000 Can you say something a little bit about that? 297 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:30,000 Yeah, I mean, I think so, as I sort of hinted earlier on, religious education, there's not a huge sector of educational research. 298 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:37,000 It's a very niche field. And actually, the work that I do is religious education by accident. 299 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:45,000 My my motivation and my intellectual project, if you like, is about understanding how policy development works in real life. 300 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:54,000 It just so happens that I've worked on religious education because that's where I've had ways in or pre-existing knowledge. 301 00:33:54,000 --> 00:34:02,000 Because I know developing my career as an early career researcher, I want to develop an identity as a policy researcher. 302 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,000 So to me, 303 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:16,000 getting the book published in the policy staple was really important because to have it published is as a religious education book would in a sense, 304 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:26,000 keep me constrained within that very narrow field where I've already established a reputation by moving to a slightly broader intellectual silo. 305 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,000 I suppose there is scope for more development. 306 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:35,000 And it's I mean, it's already led to some interesting discussions about other education policy projects. 307 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:42,000 So it's been successful. But I think I think the piece of advice that I was given, I would pass on when thinking about publication, 308 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:47,000 if think about what you want your academic identity to focus around. 309 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:52,000 Yeah. Because lots of us do PhDs to a sort of a combination of what we're interested in, 310 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:59,000 but also what we can get funding for, what our supervisors interests are, where where there is a gap. 311 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:07,000 I mean, I think of Einstein as the example because his PhD was nothing to do with theories of relativity. 312 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:12,000 But that's what he's known for. Yeah. He's not not known for his PhD work, is known for his work afterwards. 313 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,000 And I think it's an opportunity. 314 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:23,000 Getting a book published is to create an early career researcher is a huge thing and it's a thing that gives you opportunities. 315 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:31,000 So think about the opportunities. Where do I want to be positioned and how do I then get this book of this monograph? 316 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,000 How do I then use that as a stepping stone to where I want to be, if that makes sense? 317 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,000 Yeah, absolutely. 318 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:44,000 And within that, I wondered if you could just say a bit more about so you said about delaying it because you didn't want it published. 319 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:49,000 You wanted it published in the next REF cycle. So what was the. 320 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:59,000 What was the rationale for that? OK. So because of the way the REF works, we're all encouraged or demanded to submit, 321 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:04,000 you know, X number of papers at whatever, you know, five For star articles. 322 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:12,000 I know that's ridiculous. But, you know, the pressure is to produce a certain number of For star articles or three star articles within the REF cycle. 323 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:18,000 I'd already I've already achieved that through publications that I've done in the last few years. 324 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:28,000 So if I had got the book published in the current REFcycle, I would have just ended up with, you know, 10 articles from which to choose. 325 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,000 And then when the clock resets for the new REF cycle, I would have had nothing. 326 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:42,000 So it was suggested strongly to me, hold the book back. And then that gives you a starting point for the next REF's cycle. 327 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:52,000 You know, you've already got a good solid. Submission sitting on your desk waiting rather than starting from scratch. 328 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:56,000 So it's simply that that kind of strategic planning. 329 00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:01,000 Yeah, and I think with what you said about kind of how you position yourself. 330 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,000 And how you want to position your academic career? 331 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:15,000 These are incredibly important considerations and particularly with things that like the REF cycle and kind of forward forward planning, I guess. 332 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,000 So what have you learnt from the process of doing the book? 333 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:28,000 I would say I've learnt a lot. You know, I've learnt some some fairly fundamental practical skills, like if you're going to write a book. 334 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,000 You have to change the way that you live. To make it possible. 335 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:45,000 Go. For the the year between getting the contract and submitting the manuscript, I spent the first two hours of every working day working on the book. 336 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,000 OK. Yes. Because it doesn't write 337 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:58,000 You know how much I wanted it to write itself So there's the practical level, I think, on the on the sort of career development level, 338 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:04,000 you know, the importance of a book I'd completely underestimated. Well, I when it was first suggested, it was like, yeah, you know, well, 339 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:09,000 I've done a couple of articles, a book, you know, a book will just be another thing like that. 340 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:14,000 But it's not the way that it's viewed, particularly in terms of job applications and progression. 341 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:20,000 A book is a big thing. And and the all the publication house is a big thing. 342 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:25,000 Yes. So, you know, people were asking me, I interview. 343 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,000 Oh, yeah. You've got your work on a book. Who's publishing it? That was the question before. 344 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,000 What's it about? Yeah. Which I think is interesting. 345 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:40,000 So I've learnt I've learnt that I think I've learnt more about how to negotiate the process of putting together a submission. 346 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:49,000 Getting comments on it, sending it to the right person. You know, that sort of process your side of things. 347 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:58,000 But I think what I've learnt also is that many of my colleagues are hugely academically generous and also very interested in what I'm doing. 348 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:03,000 I tend to think that my work was so niche that no one else really had any interest. 349 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:12,000 But my colleagues have been hugely supportive, very encouraging. I mean, it's a bit like when you start a new job, you know, how's the job going? 350 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,000 How are you getting on? Anything you need? Maybe like when you do. 351 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,000 Each day when people say instead of saying, have you finished yet? 352 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:25,000 They say, can I give you some money or buy you a meal? It's a bit like that, you know. 353 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:29,000 How's the book coming on? Yeah, I see it quite encouraging. 354 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:35,000 So. We also have learnt quite a lot about myself because I didn't I didn't believe that I could do PhD 355 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:43,000 I come from a very chequered educational background. But I left school with with few qualifications. 356 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,000 And each time I, you know, I got my degree, I got my masters, I got my PhD 357 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:55,000 Each time I thought, well, I didn't believe I could do it. And in a sense, getting the book finished showed me that I could. 358 00:39:55,000 --> 00:40:03,000 Other people around me believed I could, but I didn't always. I think the biggest lesson for me is actually you can. 359 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:10,000 Yeah. And I think the final lesson is don't rush into writing a book. 360 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,000 Because it is a lot of work. It's worth it is hugely rewarding. 361 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:18,000 And, you know, I'm so looking forward to hearing from people who are using the method that I've devised. 362 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:25,000 But there are easier ways to spend your life and work you. 363 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:36,000 So in the process of writing, writing the book, where you finishing the postdoc and starting the job you're in now, we say we I working full time. 364 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:41,000 For about. Six months. No more than six months. 365 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:46,000 I started my current role as a lecturer in September last year. 366 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:56,000 OK, but September 2019 and I submitted the manuscript in July 2020 and I didn't get the contracts till September. 367 00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:02,000 So most of the time that I was working on the specific book, I've been working full time. 368 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:07,000 Say, I was think that that kind of doing two hours on it every day, like in the morning, 369 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,000 was that the way that you managed to kind of the balancing of the work? 370 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:17,000 Yeah. Yeah. Because prior to that, I you know, I spent three years with my postdoc. 371 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:24,000 I spent, you know, working on the book all the time. But, you know, a lot of that was research. 372 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:35,000 You know, archive research, data analysis, redeveloping the method, you know, networking meetings, etc. 373 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:41,000 And I did quite a lot of other projects alongside that kind of teaching other places. 374 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:47,000 So. I did try to have a a day, a week on the book. 375 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:55,000 When I first started this role, but it's it wasn't manageable, partly because I can't write flat out for seven or eight hours ago. 376 00:41:55,000 --> 00:42:04,000 Yeah, partly because however much you set aside a day and lock yourself away and turn your e-mail off, people still find you and they still demand, 377 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:10,000 whereas somehow it's more acceptable when people knock on your door eight o'clock in the morning and say, have you got time for a meeting? 378 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:15,000 You can say I'm free at lunchtime or I'm free later. 379 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:23,000 And that's okay. So, yeah, at this point, I mean, it's sort of one of those things that you achieve it by chipping away a bit at a time. 380 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,000 And for me, a couple of hours a day was the way to do it. 381 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:34,000 I know that for some people they write best, you know, in big, long chunks, maybe at the weekend or they take a day away from the office. 382 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,000 But I think you have to do what works for you. 383 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:44,000 I would also say over the course of the whole project, what works for me has changed at different times. 384 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:48,000 I should be be responsive to be be okay with that. 385 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:58,000 Thank you so much to Jonathan for a really fascinating discussion about the publishing process, about failure, about rejection, 386 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:10,000 but also about finding and articulating your identity as an early career researcher and and placing yourself within your field, moving forward. 387 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:15,000 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me. 388 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:42,408 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

In this episode I talk to Victoria Christodoulides, a PGR at the University of Bath and the University of the West of England about organising, attending and submitting abstracts to conferences. Victoria and I are both on the committee oif the Research Ethics Conference 2021, which currently has a call for papers out. You can find out more on the conference website.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/    Podcast transcript 1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Hello and welcome to R, D and The Inbetweena. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:32,000 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researches, development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:39,000 Hello and welcome to this episode of R,D and the In Betweens. Today, I'm going to be talking to Victoria Christodoulides 4 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,000 who is working with me on the conference committee for a new conference on Research Ethics. 5 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:48,000 It's gonna be taking place at the University of Exeter next June. During this episode, 6 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:53,000 we're going to talk about the ethics conference we're involved in and how we kind of 7 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:59,000 got interested in having those wider critical discussions about research ethics, 8 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,000 but also attending and submitting an abstract to your first conference. And some top tips. 9 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:11,000 So if you're new to attending conferences, this will be a really, really good insight into what the experience is like. 10 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:22,000 So, Victoria, are you happy to introduce yourself? My name is Victoria Christodoulides and I am based in the University of Bath, 11 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:29,000 but I work in an interdisciplinary PhD project with UWE as well. 12 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:34,000 So yes, in my second nearly third year. 13 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,000 Now of doing doing that. Yeah. 14 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:49,000 Can you tell me a little bit about the project project. So my my project itself is looking at childhood trauma, recovery, literacy. 15 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,000 So the kind of discourses, 16 00:01:51,000 --> 00:02:07,000 narratives that are surround childhood trauma and the recovery practises and really trying to through kind of participatory action research framework, 17 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:21,000 work with survivors to reimagine what recovery and practising recovery could be and how recovery could be understood, 18 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:26,000 perhaps differently to what it currently is. 19 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:40,000 As it's predominately dominated by what we would classify as the biomedical framework to looking at the psychotherapeutic or medicinal practises, 20 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:47,000 that sounds really fascinating and perhaps unsurprising then that you've become involved with the Research Ethics Conference. 21 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:56,000 Given that, I imagine you're encountering some really deeply complex ethical issues through the course of your research. 22 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:10,000 Yes. So I did an MRes course, prior to starting my PhD, and that's kind of really when the can of worms opened up for me and ethics. 23 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:19,000 I haven't had any of the kind of I supppose. 24 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:25,000 The bio medicinal ethical challenges that some people might get. 25 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,000 But I do get and have had quite a lot of. 26 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:36,000 Complexity in the the ethics proposals that I have, one being. 27 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:44,000 That's quite it, because it's quite complex projects, because it's an emergent design, participatory action research. 28 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,000 I'm going to call it PAR because it's much, much shorter. 29 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:58,000 But the PAR is quite complex framework. So the ethical procedures are quite important. 30 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:03,000 They're more than you know, obviously, they need to be thorough, but they a quite lengthy. 31 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:08,000 Because. Because it's emergent. You have to talk about things that you might include. 32 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:14,000 That might happen. And and that can be quite challenging. 33 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:23,000 But also, there are the challenges around working with what would be classified as a vulnerable population. 34 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:29,000 So you have those kind of ethical challenges as well. 35 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:35,000 And I suppose even more recently, that the things that I'm looking at. 36 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:41,000 And really in the thick of at the moment, because I'm not quite. Haven't quite done my data collection yet. 37 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:52,000 But how to do participatory research in COVID times is quite, quite challenging. 38 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:58,000 So that's obviously some of the challenges involved in your particular research. 39 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:07,000 Yes. Kind of got you. Interested in ethics or considering ethics more broadly in the kind of field of 40 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:12,000 research and therefore wanting to be involved in the research ethics conference. 41 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:26,000 So I think I would probably say that my experiences of ethics and possibly because the the approach I've taken to the projects 42 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:37,000 that I've been involved in have been maybe a little bit more abstract dealing with vulnerable groups in ways that perhaps 43 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:49,000 added a little bit more complexity really opened up to me when I was going through the process in it for my ethics applications 44 00:05:49,000 --> 00:06:05,000 just felt like there wasn't a huge amount of guidance or information around around ethics that I felt were fit for purpose. 45 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:16,000 And talking with other students, staff from, you know, not just our university, but, you know, wherever it seemed to go. 46 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:24,000 Even I was in a conference in Barcelona having the same conversations with senior professors who were going, 47 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,000 yeah, no, it's the same with our university, actually. 48 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:34,000 We are, you know, there there's there's all this talk about we need to be providing ethical research. 49 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:43,000 But actually, what does that actually mean? And when I thought about how well, you know, with my introduction to ethics, 50 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:48,000 I can remember one seminar and I appreciate every university may be different, 51 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:57,000 but I remember having one seminar talking about just kind of what we need to think for and having a few things online to go through as a course. 52 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:04,000 And that was pretty much it. But it's so much more complex and I think. 53 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,000 Wanted to be involved in the conference was one I. 54 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:17,000 I feel very strongly with my experiences in completing ethics forms and being involved in research that there is 55 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:29,000 so much more to the process of ethics and how our research can be ethically grounded than it is currently. 56 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:38,000 And I think it is often an afterthought. It is often a checklist and it would be great. 57 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:46,000 And through this conference and I can see that being a really strong catalyst for it being 58 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:51,000 a starting point to kind of extend these conversations and dialogues and going well look 59 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:56,000 you know. Okay, people are getting ethical approval and completing their research. 60 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:57,000 But how can we make that better? 61 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:07,000 How can we make the researchers more ethically grounded from start to finish of their projects and even before completing it? 62 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:11,000 But also understanding the process is a bit more what it is that they need to complete. 63 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:18,000 What what you need to think about in terms of provision of information, the information sheets, 64 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:23,000 that you get all sorts of things, but that it can be quite complex and difficult to follow. 65 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:30,000 And I think, you know, as I said, you know, speaking to those people just think it's currently not quite fit for purpose. 66 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:38,000 And I think something like the ethics conference has got so many moving parts that can support that. 67 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:45,000 I think I think that that really excites me to be part of something like. 68 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:56,000 Yeah, absolutely. And I I mean, I feel the same. It's becoming a very different perspective in terms of thinking about the the training 69 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:01,000 side of that and how we put the support structures in place and where the knowledge sits. 70 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:09,000 So. We're here to talk really about about conferences and perhaps sort of. 71 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,000 Submitting a abstract to a  conference or attending a conference for the first 72 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:17,000 time to help people thinking about attending the research ethics conference, 73 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:28,000 but also who might be at the start of their research journey and kind of feeling a bit mystified by these magical things called conferences. 74 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:34,000 So can you tell me a little bit about the first time you attended a conference? 75 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:43,000 Oh, the first time in attendance at the conference. Yes, it was during my time as an MRes students. 76 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:48,000 And I didn't submit an abstract to that one, but I did. 77 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:57,000 For the next one. But  attending the conference. That first time funnily enought felt quite nerve racking. 78 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,000 And I think a lot of things were going through my mind. 79 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,000 One was. You know. 80 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:10,000 I'm going to be the one that really looks stupid coming to this conference, 81 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:21,000 all these great speakers and professors and people who are more expert in their line of enquiry than I am. 82 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,000 And it kind of initially put me off going. 83 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:29,000 And, you know, I'm glad I pushed through that nervousness, 84 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:34,000 because when I when I have then subsequently gone on to and I think there's always a little bit of that. 85 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:44,000 When you when you come to conferences sometimes is some actually it doesn't really matter. 86 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:58,000 And these conferences really provide a fantastic space, not just for learning, but also networking and being able to ask questions. 87 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:02,000 That's something you can't you can't necessarily do. 88 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:13,000 If you're just watching a video or just reading a paper, you you get to maybe ask questions around your own research projects. 89 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:24,000 And, you know, I've had some great opportunities, when I've gone to conferences to speak with people who are more knowledgeable than I am and kind of go 90 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:29,000 Can I borrow five minutes of your time? Most of the time. People are really happy to. 91 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:36,000 And, you know, they're very interested listening to your know your project and kind of go look you know this is the problem I've got. 92 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,000 I'm not you know, I was thinking about what you were saying. You know, I'm not quite sure. 93 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:45,000 And I actually so many times, it gives you great ideas and sometimes even problems. 94 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,000 It's a link about that you haven't thought about before. 95 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:59,000 But they are just such a great space for me to be able to move your ideas and project forwards, whatever that might might be. 96 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:10,000 Yeah. And I think that that kind of sort of imposter syndrome that you have is is really, really common, but also. 97 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:16,000 Sort of against the nature of sort of what conferences are, which is, you know, 98 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:23,000 conferences generally aren't places where you find concrete answers, that they're the places where we. 99 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:29,000 Discuss the complex ideas and try to grapple with them. 100 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,000 And, you know, certainly in terms of presenting at conferences, 101 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:38,000 people aren't necessarily expecting you to have sort of a formal finished product, you know? 102 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:49,000 Yes. Is and conference presentations are a great place to. Explore your ideas and explore how you're collating your ideas and analysing data. 103 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,000 And it's not necessarily about kind of having the finished product, 104 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:58,000 but about the opportunity to enter into dialogue about where your thinking is at that moment in time. 105 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:03,000 Absolutely. Yeah, I think you're dead. Right. And you know 106 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:18,000 That's the the the beauty really of conferences, I think is my thoughts around going to conferences is that as long as there's a general 107 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:25,000 link or even more of a specific general to specific link to your to your project. 108 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:33,000 And in this case, ethics kind of applies to everybody. The conference that we're going to be holding. 109 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,000 You know, everyone can come. But generally speaking, you know, 110 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:44,000 there'll be conferences which might be a bit more aligned to what you're researching or very specific to an area of work that you're focussing on. 111 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:56,000 But the real beauty about it, as you were saying, is that, you know, there aren't necessarily concrete finished projects. 112 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:02,000 You can actually come with your idea. And I've done that when I when I delivered a presentation. 113 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:07,000 I kind of was talking about what it is that I wanted to do. And based on some of the work did in my MRes 114 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:12,000 Right. You know. And so it doesn't it, you know, things that have to be finished. 115 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:25,000 And what's great about that is that there are so many different takes that you can be exposed to and how to approach work. 116 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:31,000 No, in theories in methodology is all sorts of different things that you can have a look 117 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:38,000 at that you don't necessarily get access to as easily as you may have done before. 118 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:48,000 And I think what's really important about that for or our learning is if we if we only travel down the routes of reading, watching, 119 00:14:48,000 --> 00:15:06,000 engaging with one specific school of thought and one area of work, we actually don't, we actually inhibit our ability to argue our own standpoint. 120 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:13,000 And I believe quite strongly that if we engage with these different perspectives, 121 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:20,000 which you do get at conferences, which is why that's a fantastic really, you get the opportunity to go. 122 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:29,000 I never thought of that. You know, I could argue my point more strongly because of this or actually that's really made me question my perspective. 123 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,000 I need to think about strengthening my own argument based on what this person says. 124 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:42,000 Well, that's a great example for me to pull on and use within my my work and make it relevant to what I'm talking about. 125 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:48,000 So, yeah, I'm a strong advocate. Absolutely. 126 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:56,000 And, you know, we're we're talking about doing something at the conference, which is which is very much kind of about not having answers. 127 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:05,000 So it's a discussion panel about how ethical training isn't fit for purpose and  and how 128 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:13,000 we and a kind of exploration by a number of panelists and with the people attending. 129 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,000 About what? You know, what we think that. 130 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:26,000 We actually need in terms of training and skills and support to underpin ethical research, practise and, you know, 131 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:31,000 we're not going with the answers about what we think that training should be, but rather with the open question of going. 132 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,000 We know that what we have is an. Isn't doing the job it needs to. 133 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:41,000 So let's have a conversation. You know, let's start the conversation now. 134 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:46,000 and not necessarily find the answers, but at least. Kind of. 135 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:50,000 Propel the. Conversation forward. 136 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,000 Yes, exactly. Absolutely, yeah. 137 00:16:53,000 --> 00:17:01,000 And I think, you know, again, great place for a conference is to be able to kind of it's not just about people talking at you. 138 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:09,000 And I think the ethics conference that we're putting together, we've got workshops, you know, supporting   with training. 139 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:20,000 We've got a good cooperation with different organisations and businesses as well as, you know, students. 140 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:25,000 And I think, you know, if you take the panel in that we're talking about there around the fit for purpose ethical training, 141 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,000 I think, you know, that's a really good example of, 142 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:38,000 you know, we're not here just talking at people saying this is what we think should change because, you know, we really value being from other people. 143 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:45,000 And, you know, what would be great is we have the same range of people talking on the panel, 144 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:53,000 but having a range of perspectives from the audience to kind of go, hey, that this is my experience, you know? 145 00:17:53,000 --> 00:18:00,000 And, you know, how how can we utilise these experiences to better our processes? 146 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:06,000 And I think the beauty of ethics and as I mentioned at the beginning of this conversation, 147 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,000 is there's been so many people that are expected to from all walks of life. 148 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,000 Who just say the same thing that it's not fit for purpose 149 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:22,000 This could be something that I think should transcend across universities, across the education system for research. 150 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:30,000 And it could be so easily done if we can come together and say easily rolling their eyes. 151 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:35,000 Not easily. I appreciate it. But there is definitely, I think, a route here. 152 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:42,000 That could be made easier. Yeah, because collectively we have the knowledge. 153 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:47,000 It's just it's sitting in us with so many things that sitting in individual pockets right now. 154 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:52,000 And yet, you know, the the discussion we're having is about bringing those people together. 155 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,000 And on the broader concerns as well about, you know, 156 00:18:54,000 --> 00:19:04,000 working with different groups and businesses and charities and education organisations outside of higher education. 157 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,000 You know, again, it's bringing that breadth of knowledge and understanding together. 158 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:13,000 And, you know, that is a lot of what research is doing now is about. 159 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:21,000 Absolutely. Interdisciplinary is about connections to industry and practise and bringing together different forms 160 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:26,000 of knowledge or different kinds of knowledge to give us that sense that something richer. 161 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,000 Absolutely, and I think the great thing about this conference is that that we can do that. 162 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:40,000 I think the the bringing the best practises is exactly what I'd love to see happen is I'm sure you know, 163 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:47,000 I know different universities have difficult ethical, different ethical processes as the same departments. 164 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:55,000 I think it's we need to extend those dialogues and conversations to kind of see where is the best practise in a way, 165 00:19:55,000 --> 00:20:00,000 where can we pull on that improve that across across the board. 166 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,000 So I agree Yeah. So. Thinking about. 167 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:10,000 Abstracts and kind of submitting abstracts to a conference. What was that like? 168 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:24,000 The first time you did it? Oh, so the first time I did it, I, I had basically just started my my p h. 169 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,000 D. So it finished my MRes and just started my PhD 170 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:34,000 And I'd been off to talk because of. 171 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:46,000 They are at her empathy conference regarding empathy in research, and I have been asked to talk because the work that I was doing, 172 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:52,000 interlinks with concepts of empathy and some of the practises we were doing. 173 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:59,000 And I felt very, very, very out of my depth because, as we mentioned, you know, even though it didn't matter to me, 174 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:07,000 I feel I should be coming to this conversation with these great speakers with, you know, full blown. 175 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:14,000 Here's my project take. My answers, you know, here's the the outcome and what I'm going to do with it. 176 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:21,000 Hurrah! That was very much. This is just my ideas for my PhD 177 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:33,000 I did base it on some of the work that I'd done within my MRes because how I utilised the MRes for my PhD. 178 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:40,000 So I completed the abstract, I think was. 179 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:46,000 It always seems more daunting than that we really need it, but it really needs to be energy. 180 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:54,000 You pointed out the imposter syndrome really does for me it does raise its ugly head. 181 00:21:54,000 --> 00:22:01,000 But I think when you've got a good structure to follow for the abstract, 182 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:08,000 I think we've got some tips and advice on how to structure that as well as we've got workshops as well, 183 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:14,000 which I've been really looking forward to to to listen to that's helped people. 184 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:22,000 But I think when you've got those things and I didn't have any access to that, it makes it a lot easier. 185 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:30,000 But I think when you send it off, I think it's always good to get other people to to check it over, see what they think. 186 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:34,000 Know you got the right idea in how to structure it. 187 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:41,000 Maybe ask your supervisor to have a quick glance if you got any advice or anybody else, you know, 188 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:51,000 who is who who completed abstracts before and after and stuff on kind of, you know, very quickly got a, you know 189 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:57,000 Yes, this sounds great. We would like to have your presentation. 190 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,000 And it was then quite a straightforward process for me. 191 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:05,000 I appreciate is different depending on what the conference it is. 192 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:10,000 But I believe ours is is quite simple for submitting abstracts. 193 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:21,000 But yes, there's always that slight nervousness of submitting something to know because you want you want to be accepted and approached for it. 194 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:32,000 But I would say I think, you know, even the process of writing an abstract. 195 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:39,000 Even if you don't get chosen and there could be a plethora of reasons why you may not be. 196 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:52,000 But even if you're not, the the whole process of working through writing an abstract actually can help you with your own project. 197 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:58,000 And, you know, it is really useful to do because you've got to be succinct. 198 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,000 And it's great, especially even early, 199 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:10,000 early stages of your project to be able to kind of maybe conceptiualise and more concisely what it is that you're doing. 200 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:15,000 And then even further down the line, you've always got some more information that you could pull on. 201 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:25,000 But again, even doing it kind of mid to end of your project or beyond if you're not a PhD student but a fully fledged academic. 202 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:35,000 But if you if you know, it's great to be able just to utilise, as I said, conceptualise your ideas clearly 203 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:42,000 So, again, I'd really welcome anyone at all stages to to engage in that process. 204 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:50,000 Yeah. And I think that thing that you're saying is really key about actually forcing you to hone in 205 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:58,000 on or crystallise some of your ideas on some of those kind of overarching aims or arguments, 206 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:03,000 because so much of what we do in academia is about long form writing. 207 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:09,000 You know, I know that a journal article doesn't necessarily feel like long form writing, but to a lot of people, you know, 6000 words. 208 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,000 It's quite a lot. 209 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:23,000 You know, it's about having the time to kind of develop argument and to kind of build on ideas, or is actually that the real challenge is, 210 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:30,000 is it okay, how can I describe this really succinctly in a way that communicates why it matters as well? 211 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,000 Absolutely. 212 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:41,000 It's a really important skill and one that, you know, we forget when we are in the throes of writing reams and reams and reams of words, you know. 213 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:49,000 Ninety thousand one hundred thousand words. It seems a few a few hundred 214 00:25:49,000 --> 00:26:01,000 It doesn't seem very much, but it's really important skill that I think, you know, when you do nothing but long writing, you can easily forget it. 215 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:08,000 And it's one that you will absolutely carry forward with within your career, whatever career you go in to as well. 216 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:14,000 You know, when you if you if you were going down the academic route, you'll be asked to submit abstracts in the future, 217 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:25,000 you will be asked to submit journals which are shorter, you know, and you have to really tease out your your your key points. 218 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:30,000 As you said, it needs to be crystallised and really clear with what you're doing. 219 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:36,000 If you're not staying with academia, there are so many times working in business and in sales myself. 220 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:43,000 There's been so many times I might have to be really concise with what I was saying. 221 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:48,000 And I'm a waffle-r people listening to this or they can tell about it. 222 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:54,000 It is a real skill, but that's. Absolutely. 223 00:26:54,000 --> 00:27:01,000 Anybody can benefit from. Obviously abstracts get chosen depending on what they want to go down. 224 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:12,000 You've got lots of options for how people might want to creatively discuss their work. 225 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:22,000 Again, you've then got the opportunity to expand out and maybe do a poster, maybe do a panel, maybe do a presentation. 226 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:27,000 And again, these are all skills that you really, really do need practise. 227 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:34,000 And so, you know, this is a great opportunity for people to do that. 228 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:46,000 Yeah, for sure. And, you know, those those skills of articulation and summarising and kind of being able to talk about your research or being able to. 229 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:54,000 Kind of communicate your research in a fewer amount of words, shall we say, and is an important skill, 230 00:27:54,000 --> 00:28:02,000 not just in kind of communicating with a broader kind of academic and non-academic audience, but also, you know, when it comes to your writing, 231 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:10,000 when it comes to writing up, you aren't going to need to, even though you've got your 80 to 100 thousand words or, you know, 232 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:16,000 whatever it is that you're aiming for, depending on what kind of research programme you're on, you're still going to need to be able to do that. 233 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:22,000 You know, you've got an abstract to write, an introduction, a conclusion. You're going to need to make your argument clear throughout. 234 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,000 That's a skill that's going to carry you through the written thesis as well. 235 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:34,000 It's not just in kind of conference space research communication that that's useful. 236 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,000 Absolutely. And I think the great thing when we've got to conference, 237 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:50,000 which is just so cross disciplinary and I mean it feeds in to all areas of any work, you know, whether it's academic or not. 238 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,000 That's, you know, and I'm we're coming in. 239 00:28:53,000 --> 00:29:04,000 It's been a few years now, but I think it's really prevalently been pushed quite heavily by research councils and organisations and so on, 240 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:10,000 that we need to be demonstrating collaboration, demonstrating impact. 241 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:26,000 And, you know, when you need to do that and often you have to work with different audiences and work into discipline or in an interdisciplinary way. 242 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:31,000 Yes, I was going to say a bigger word. Make it short in an extraordinary way. 243 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:39,000 And when you do that, it's actually, you know, if you're not speaking, even though you may be speaking to another academic, 244 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:49,000 you have to be aware that actually, you know, that there are different languages, you know, across disciplines that people won't understand. 245 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:57,000 So, again, when you're having to engage in writing abstracts and doing it for audiences, 246 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:11,000 that may not be yorr direct discipline or area of thought or out to the organisation for developing skills that will enable you to. 247 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:16,000 Explain what you're doing to anyone. 248 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:25,000 Yes, rather than just that specific niche, that area that youre situated in. 249 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:31,000 And I think that's really important as a said You know, when when we're looking more and more to to, you know, looking at grants, 250 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:38,000 for example, or looking at, you know, working with other organisations, you have to do that. 251 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:47,000 And it's not easy. I'm working in a collaborative, an interdisciplinary field. 252 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,000 And it's not an easy process. So we need to develop those skills. 253 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:56,000 So, again, these conferences provide that and especially one with, as I said, 254 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:04,000 which such as ethics, the topic is already in the cross disciplinary setting. 255 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:10,000 I wanted to also reflects on being involved in the organisation of a conference 256 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:18,000 as a PhD student and what that's like and what kind of what you're gaining on, 257 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:25,000 what you're learning from being kind of involved in that behind the scenes rather than just attending. 258 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:38,000 This is an interesting one actually. I have never been involved in a conference before, so I really didn't know what to expect. 259 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:47,000 I am I'm quite a busy individual and I was a little bit worried about how much time I needed to devote to this. 260 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:53,000 And I would be wrong if I said that, you know, you didn't have to put time aside for it. 261 00:31:53,000 --> 00:32:07,000 And, you know, I'm I'm aware that different members of our team have varied responsibilities. 262 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,000 And there are some who have more than others. 263 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:19,000 So, you know, I think it's bearing and being I think coming to it being I was being really honest about what I could and couldn't do 264 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,000 And I've been able to kind of extend extend that, you know, 265 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:32,000 as I've got one of the more confident with that being being involved in the conference itself. 266 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:40,000 Has been quite illuminating. And. illuminating a number of ways. 267 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:48,000 One, I think I've been really bowled over by just how much stuff one can do, 268 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:55,000 and I think you can make it complex, more complex and not simply depending to what you want to incorporate. 269 00:32:55,000 --> 00:33:00,000 And again, that depends on your team and the skills, I think, for this particular project. 270 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:05,000 We again. Possibly because of the context of what we're talking about. 271 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:14,000 We've really been able to expand. What is on offer and who can you who you can bring, 272 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:20,000 what's in to the possibility of of the project which is extended and I've seen 273 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:25,000 it grow and change in shifted in what we what we are looking to provide, 274 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:32,000 what we can provide. You know, I. Great ideas. And I think that's been felt for me. 275 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:43,000 What's been so interesting is learning from from everybody and kind of going over, you know, although that's not my role. 276 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,000 I've seen what somebody else has done. And so that's really interesting. 277 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:55,000 I never knew you could do that. I even down to programming. And a Microsoft Forms, for example, with all these skills. 278 00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:04,000 I hadn't actually used myself that I was being encouraged to use. 279 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:12,000 It has been very useful for me. I think that that's been, you know, 280 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:19,000 the greatest part and obviously being part of something which I'm quite passionate about and turning off with others as well. 281 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,000 You are passionate about, about ethics in different ways. 282 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:28,000 So, yeah, it's been I've I thoroughly enjoyed it. 283 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,000 Thank you, Victoria, for taking the time to talk to me about all things. 284 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:38,000 Conferences. If you're interested in finding out more about the research ethics conference that Victoria and I are on the committee for, 285 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:42,000 I'm going to add a link to the  conference website in the show notes. 286 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:47,000 But I hope that even though our conversation has been quite specific to this project we're involved in, 287 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:55,000 it's inspired you to to take the plunge and to attend your first conference or submit your first abstract. 288 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:00,000 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me. 289 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:27,526 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.    

In this episode I talk to Megan Maunder, a PGR at the University of Exeter about being a disabled researcher. I also discuss my own experiences of working in HE and being disabled, as a I suffer from chronic invisible illnesses. If you are interested in learning more about structural inequalities in HE, you may find the AdvanceHE Equality in higher education: statistical report 2019 useful.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/    Podcast transcript   00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Hello and welcome to R, D and the in betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,000 and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:37,000 Hi, everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens. 4 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:44,000 My name is Kelly Preece. And as always. I'll be your host. Today I'm talking to one of our postgraduate researchers, Meghan Maunder, 5 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:49,000 to carry on the series that I've started about talking to researchers and H-E 6 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:55,000 professionals about what it's like working in higher education and being a researcher. 7 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:03,000 When you have a protected characteristic. So I'm gonna be talking to Megan today about being a disabled researcher at higher education. 8 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:11,000 Now, it's really important to note that I'll be interjecting my own experience into this conversation, as some listeners will know. 9 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,000 I have a longtime chronic health condition which is covered by the Equality Act. 10 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:26,000 So in legal terms, I am disabled and therefore experience challenges working in higher education and living my life, 11 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:34,000 but also receive an awful lot of support. So I'm going to be talking with Megan about our experiences. 12 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:45,000 So hi, I'm Megan. I'm currently a third year PhD student at the university of Exeter, and I live with multiple chronic illnesses and disabilities. 13 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:55,000 I didn't get a proper diagnosis or a label, most of them until later in my undergraduate and during my PhD so 14 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,000 a lot of it for me, even though I sort of been living with it my whole life. 15 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:06,000 Dealing with the admin and the bureaucracy is something that is very I've had to learn very quickly over the last two years. 16 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,000 Yeah. And I can as you know, I can relate to that hugely. 17 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,000 One of the reasons I wanted to have this conversation is because I also have a number 18 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:19,000 of chronic illnesses and have only in the past few years been diagnosed and 19 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:27,000 I'm kind of navigating the support that is and isn't available and how to best operate 20 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:34,000 look after myself with the academic environment within an academic environment. So. 21 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:40,000 I guess let's let's start with the big one. How accessible do we feel 22 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:46,000 Higher education and research is for people with chronic illnesses such. 23 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:55,000 Big question. Yes, I think it does look lot like a lot of it depends on what field you're in. 24 00:02:55,000 --> 00:03:00,000 the type of research you're in. Definitely. So how does that work? 25 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:06,000 I mean, in my personal experience, my immediate supervisory team and colleagues have been really great and supportive. 26 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:13,000 My, I guess, battles, if they were being with admin bureaucracy and making sure that I get the support I need. 27 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:18,000 I mean, even in my undergraduate, it took me until my master's year, 28 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:24,000 which four years to get all the accommodation I needed for my exams, which is a very long time. 29 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:32,000 And that only really came as a result of me having a lot of support from my personal tutor or friends and family, really. 30 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:38,000 And I think that truly there's a lot to be done. And I was really hoping, given the current situation, things would become more accessible 31 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:43,000 But if anything, I actually think they've become more hostile. Really? 32 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:50,000 Yeah. I mean, from personal experience now, accessible routes are being blocked in favour of one way systems. 33 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:55,000 I think that there's a lot of discussion about things we're putting in place 34 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,000 that disproportionately affect people who are disabled and chronically ill. 35 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,000 I know you know, worry for me is that with the push to have everything outside is great in the summer. 36 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:08,000 But in the winter, if I get cold, it really exacerbates a lot of my symptoms. 37 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:15,000 And that's a worry for me. And the kind of loneliness that you get at that and not being on campus at the moment is also. 38 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,000 So I'm lucky that I have a home office setup, but not everyone does. 39 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:29,000 I think that broadly it's the extra load that you have of being a disabled kind of human individual where you have less energy than everybody else. 40 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,000 You're a lot more pain than everybody else who's able bodied 41 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:41,000 And then you have this whole load of admin you to deal with, with your already limited time in order to make academia accessible. 42 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,000 And that, for me, I think is the biggest hurdle. 43 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:51,000 And for a lot of people, it's the form filling and the constant battle and chasing people up to get what you need in order to access it. 44 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:59,000 And there still seems to be. A sort of statement that these things are not. 45 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,000 Levelling the playing field, but somehow giving you an advantage. 46 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:06,000 And people seem to think that's a bonus not realising that you're already miles behind everyone else. 47 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,000 So this is just helping you catch up. Yeah, and I. 48 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:17,000 I really relate to that. What you're saying about where we've got, you know, more physical barrier barriers, 49 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:22,000 less energy, more pain, all, you know, all of our kind of medical symptoms, as it were. 50 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:27,000 But we've also got to do more work to. 51 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:33,000 Access support systems and be, you know, be anything near a level playing field with other people, and I think that's the fundamental irony, right? 52 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:39,000 We've got less energy, but more work. Yes, exactly. And. 53 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:48,000 The the thing that I find really interesting is this, and it applies obviously at the moment to a lot of different protected characteristics. 54 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:53,000 But this idea of kind of putting things in place to support disabled people. 55 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:58,000 Provides advantage. So in the end, we end up with. 56 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:05,000 You know, this is perception perhaps that we might have more advantage than other people. 57 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,000 Well, not true. Like you say, it's just levelling the playing field. 58 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:17,000 is that something that you've overtly experienced in academia or have you felt that's just an undercurrent? 59 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:22,000 I think people who are directly involved with me, like I said, that they've been very supportive. 60 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:30,000 It's definitely something I felt that dealing with disability and accessibility is not a priority within the administration side of things. 61 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:35,000 And I think people do tend to feel like sometimes you make a fuss of nothing. 62 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,000 But it is also like the little micro aggressions and comments, 63 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:43,000 like when I had a new office chair and someone said to me, Oh, gee, do you not just like the office chair? 64 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:50,000 I was like, no. You know, I'm a long term disabled. I need a prescription filled chair to be able to be in the office. 65 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:57,000 And, you know, I, I, I think you don't have to think so. Some of course you do. But it's the little microaggression, I think, that builds up. 66 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:04,000 And when I was an undergraduate and applying for graduate jobs, a lot of schemes I applied for, there was a guaranteed interview. 67 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,000 If you were disabled student and people, why don't you see that's fair? 68 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:13,000 I said, well, no, it's because they can't make the accommodations you need in the application process. 69 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,000 So why should I be denied the opportunity to apply? 70 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:21,000 They've decided that the cheapest and easiest route for them is just to offer me an interview rather than trying to accommodate me. 71 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:26,000 Like I don't have an advantage. I'm just not able to compete in the same way you are. 72 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:32,000 Yeah, I know. I know what you mean about the micro aggressions. And I, I find having an invisible illness. 73 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:38,000 People are people who are really, really understanding up to a point. 74 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:43,000 Yeah. And then it's kind of like, you know, I've got a sit standdesk which. 75 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:51,000 Actually, since I got it, I've not been able to use very much because my it was my knees that was I was struggling with and sitting for so long. 76 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,000 So I needed to kind of stand and alternate. 77 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:59,000 And now it's the moment I'm going through a phase where my feet are actually the problem and I can't stand right now 78 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:06,000 So it's and people will sort guess that, oh, you know, you obviously didn't or did you did you not really need that in the end? 79 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:15,000 And that kind of thing. And I think because. Most of, what, ninety nine point nine percent of the time, I don't look visibly unwell. 80 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:21,000 There is that kind of I fear that it's those micro aggressions where you feel like 81 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:27,000 this is that tiny bit of doubt in someone's mind that you that you're telling the truth. 82 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,000 Yeah, absolutely, and I think particularly like you said, when it comes to accommodations, 83 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:36,000 I think what people don't understand that it's not a binary thing. 84 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:43,000 You constantly your situation is constantly evolving, your tolerance, your pain levels and your ability to understand what's going on. 85 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:51,000 And I think that you get that the system we currently have doesn't make room for those accommodations to change. 86 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:55,000 And like you said, you feel like you have to kind of justify your current things even if don't work for you. 87 00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:02,000 And it feels like under the current system, you don't have the space to experiment and figure out what works best for you, 88 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:11,000 either because you kind of have to try and take everything because you don't know how many chances you're going to have to reassess your situation. 89 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:18,000 Absolutely. Absolutely. So I wanted to pick up on that as well, 90 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:26,000 what you said about about kind of recent developments due to COVID and the introduction of one way systems and the impact of that on accessibility. 91 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:31,000 Can you talk to me a little bit about some of the issues you have experienced or foresee 92 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:39,000 around the kind of COVID related changes that make campuses less accessible? 93 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:47,000 Yeah, I think from not on campus, but for example, I have an issue going to my bank because they wanted me to go up in the lift and down the stairs. 94 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,000 And I said, well, I'm not in a position to manage this today. 95 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:55,000 And they were a bit taken aback because obviously I didn't look disabled to show that someone will come to a different arrangement for you. 96 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:59,000 As it was, they sourced everything so they could do everything downstairs. 97 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:07,000 But it worries me that on campus, people are going to see people who are they don't know are visibly. 98 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:15,000 It worries me that on campus, the people who are physically disabled might be called out for doing what's right for them, 99 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:21,000 because whilst I'm pretty open about my disability, obviously not everyone who knows me knows I'm disabled. 100 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:28,000 And also, I worry with particularly how the university word things about challenging people who are not wearing a 101 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:33,000 mask and breaking the one way system when we know there are people that are not in that position. 102 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:42,000 And I think that particularly in a world where people are scared and people are unsure about themselves. 103 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:47,000 People are less likely to be kind and tolerant about people who are behaving differently 104 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,000 And I think that that for me is really the key. 105 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:57,000 You've got the combination of we're already in a you know, I was talking to someone about this not long ago about, 106 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:04,000 you know, we're already in that kind of fight or flight mode and we have been for months because of this pandemic. 107 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:05,000 You know, we're already scared. 108 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:13,000 We've got, you know, everything that all our emotions, our senses, everything is heightened to a degree to help us deal with the current situation. 109 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:21,000 You combine that with the micro aggressions that people already face in in an academic environment or in any environment. 110 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,000 Indeed. And so and then, you know, 111 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:33,000 the very real instances we've seen out and about of people challenging people not being socially distanced or not wearing a mask. 112 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:37,000 And then the fear that that will happen when you come back on campus becomes very real. 113 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:43,000 And I think it's difficult for people to understand that without the context of the micro aggressions. 114 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:50,000 I don't know what you think. Oh, absolutely. And I think, you know, as a society, we're all trying to pull together right now. 115 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,000 And I'm not saying that the measures in place are not needed. Yeah, 116 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:58,000 but there's a a strong worry and a concern that yet because of these micro aggressions and 117 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:03,000 this Build-Up and this really strong tension that we're feeling in society right now, 118 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:10,000 it's going to disproportionately effect people who are disabled and who the current systems don't work for 119 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:17,000 And I think you're right in saying that it's it is a systematic thing that's being exacerbated by this situation. 120 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:23,000 And one of the things that. I mean, I think we've we've talked about it in the past as well. 121 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:29,000 Is that the the idea of any campus being accessible. 122 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:42,000 Is loose in terms of there's there's a difference between meeting the legal requirements and being fully accessible and inclusive. 123 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:43,000 And you know, 124 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:51,000 the key example of that being the building that I work in has a push plate door to get in and then it has a pull door to get in the actual. 125 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:56,000 But again, a hallway and then a pull door to get into the actual building. Just that. 126 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:04,000 So you can get into that. You can get into the corridor, if you will, but you can't get further. 127 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,000 Unlike, you know, we know a lot of buildings on our campus. 128 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:14,000 But this is true of all university campuses and all public spaces, really, that have one accessible entrance. 129 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:21,000 And how does that work with a one way system? Well. 130 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:28,000 The fact that, you know, that these buildings and these campuses generally on necessarily built to properly be inclusive, 131 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:37,000 but to kind of meet the requirements of the law. How does that make you feel as a disabled person? 132 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:47,000 I think it's incredibly frustrating and it feels to be unfair that, for example, in the past. 133 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:52,000 Yeah, there have been times where the quickest route between my building, I see the building. 134 00:13:52,000 --> 00:14:00,000 I'm not able to make because I've it's been a day where stairs have not been my friend, and the sensible route is about four times as long. 135 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:05,000 So not only is it adding extra time to my day, but it's also taking more out of me 136 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,000 because I'm having to make that route. 137 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:19,000 And it's just incredibly frustrating that in 2020, when equality, equity and inclusivity should be at the top of everybody's priority. 138 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:25,000 That these things are constantly overlooked and when they brought up they're not taken seriously, particularly like you said, with doors. 139 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:31,000 It's so frustrating for me to push heavy doors like it causes me an incredible amount of pain. 140 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,000 And when I say to people, they say that's not a really big deal in the grand scheme of things, is it? 141 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:40,000 But it's something that the university in reality, there are plenty of solutions to do. 142 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,000 It's just not high on the agenda. And it frustrates me. 143 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:49,000 It feels like to say, well, students are not as valued and the same for disabled staff as well. 144 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:53,000 And I think that that's that's getting to the crux of it, isn't it? 145 00:14:53,000 --> 00:15:00,000 It's not it's not just the kind of the actual access issue and the fact that, you know, 146 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:06,000 you can't the the you know, the accessible route to your supervisor takes it out of you. 147 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:20,000 It's actually that fundamentally. It it that those as sort of systematic and structural micro aggressions, if you will, make you feel less welcome. 148 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:30,000 Absolutely, and especially when you're in a group, essentially to people who you don't know that well on a different academic campus, for example. 149 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:36,000 And they try a route that's successful. It's really hard. Everything isn't accessible. 150 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:40,000 It's really hard to be the one to speak up all the time, be like, no, actually, I can't do that. 151 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:44,000 Can we do this instead? And the onus is always on the individual. 152 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,000 And it's an extra emotional load. 153 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:54,000 It's an extra load logistically, because you have to plan your trips in a way that a lot of people can just turn up and hope for the best. 154 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,000 And that's not an option for myself. And, of course, a lot of disabled students. 155 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:03,000 So. It's frustrating that the onus is always on you and it's an extra load. 156 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:08,000 You have to carry when you're already carrying more than everybody else. Absolutely. 157 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:22,000 Absolutely. Can we talk a little bit about being being a researcher and what what challenges or or 158 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:29,000 limitations there are from the system for engaging kind of in the full research academic life? 159 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:36,000 If you are disabled or chronically ill other. Are there particular things that are difficult or challenging? 160 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:41,000 Well, I have a very big pet peeve about what's your pet peeve? 161 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:51,000 It's an injustice. It is not fair. I really it really frustrates me that as a student, you're only exempt for council tax if you are full time. 162 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:57,000 If you if you're studying full time, as soon as you drop down to part time, you have to pay council tax. 163 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:04,000 So if you're a student who's decided that they'll take the drop in income of a stipend because they can't physically meet those five days. 164 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,000 Not only losing your income, they you're losing your income because now you have to start paying council tax. 165 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:17,000 Yeah. And that's the same with sick leave. So if you're UKRI funded student, you get up to 13 weeks sick leave pay to twelve months, 166 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:25,000 which even if you're an able bodied person and get into an accident, 13 weeks probably isn't enough to aid recovery if it's a pretty serious accident. 167 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:30,000 So if you're dealing with long term chronic illnesses that say it's quite difficult to access. 168 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:38,000 I feel like a lot of these. Little bureaucratic things could just be fixed by the U.K. sector as a whole, 169 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:44,000 starting to employ PGR students as employees rather than students with a stipend. 170 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:51,000 I think falling into this grey area where you work as a teaching assistant and you're not really an undergrad, 171 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,000 you're not doing a taught, you're not doing a taught module, you're not taught student. 172 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:59,000 You're not really staff either means that actually you don't really feel represented either. 173 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,000 And it's really hard to to make that change in such a small group of you. 174 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:08,000 And you're only sort of doing that for a short period of time. 175 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:16,000 And that really impacts your research. And like I said, because I have less time to spend on my research when I'm trying to mitigate dealing 176 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:21,000 with all my health issues and all the emailing I have to do separately academia. 177 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:26,000 And also I have to chase up all of the things that I need to accommodate me to make that work. 178 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:35,000 And it seems unfair that the university doesn't take on more of the responsibility to help make that easy for you. 179 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,000 And I think that the part time kind of flexibility issue is really, 180 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:51,000 really key because we know so many people who are disabled or chronically ill either can't work full time or if they or like me, 181 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:58,000 I am able to work full time, but I am able to work full time if I'm able to work flexibly. 182 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:10,000 And if I wasn't able to work flexibly and I will sort of put my hands up and say my experience of support and opportunities, 183 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:15,000 flexible working has been incredibly positive, which I know is not necessarily the norm. 184 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:23,000 And I accept that. But, you know, I work I do compressed hours and have done for a year and a half. 185 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:33,000 No. Almost two years now. And that really helps me having a regular like every two weeks I have a day off in which I just rest. 186 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:38,000 And the in the positive impact that has had on my. 187 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:47,000 Physical or mental health is substantial. And I've always had the opportunity to work at home one day a week. 188 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:56,000 Obviously I'm working at home all the time. And when we go back into a post COVID world, we will be working at home a little bit more. 189 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,000 And working at home physically has been very good for me because it takes the 190 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,000 kind of takes the commute and takes the the things that I find challenging, 191 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,000 particularly first thing in the morning with arthritis out of the day. 192 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:15,000 And so I'm able to kind of, you know, to use the sort of well trodden spoon's analogy. 193 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:24,000 I'm I'm able to retain some some of those spoon's that I use doing kind of very basic things like getting in the shower and driving to work. 194 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:32,000 And I can I can use either on my work, which is a good thing, or I can, you know, dare I say it, 195 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:46,000 use them on things that I do for myself, like hobbies or relaxing or or seeing friends either online or socially distanced. 196 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:51,000 Obviously. You know that flexible working is really crucial. 197 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:59,000 And I know where people don't have to. They have no choice but to work part time because it's the only way that they can manage. 198 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:10,000 Oh, I completely agree. If my supervisory team wasn't fully supportive of my flexible working hours and even pre-COVID with me working from home, 199 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:16,000 not Full-Time, but I tend to split my time. So I have certain activities sitting at home and sitting one side of me office. 200 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:20,000 I'm not sure I would have stuck with it because, like you said, 201 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:25,000 there's always a choice that you have to make and how you want to spend your limited energy reserves. 202 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,000 Yeah. And me sometimes more mornings. 203 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:37,000 Difficult. I've never been a morning person anyway. But my conditions exacerbate my issues in the morning. 204 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:43,000 Being able to be at home and not worry about pushing myself to get dressed and walk or drive 205 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:49,000 or take public transport gives me that time to think and lets me invest my time better. 206 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:56,000 And I think there's a lot of misconceptions that just because you can work, you can't be in that much pain. 207 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:01,000 You can't be that ill. A lot people don't realise that it's a constant choice you have to make. 208 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:08,000 Yeah, it's you. Do I feel well enough to work today. Do I choose work above my health and that. 209 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,000 For me is a really, really challenging one. 210 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:21,000 I mean, we know, you know, the academia has a culture of overwork and kind of toxic cultures in relation to mental health. 211 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,000 And actually, it's take me since I. 212 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,000 So I've I've stopped being an academic five years ago and in professional services. 213 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,000 And during that time have been able to carve out much better work life balance, 214 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:39,000 which has been better for both my mental and physical health, but also. 215 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:47,000 Kind of checking out of both that culture of overwork, but also the kind of the prioritising of work over. 216 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,000 Over myself, yeah. And I'm still doing it. 217 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:55,000 I'm getting I know I'm not well enough to work and I'll and I'll get it. 218 00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:02,000 I'll get out of bed. I'll have a shower. I'll drive in and I'll arrive at work. And I'll just be absolutely exhausted and they'll lean on. 219 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:08,000 My colleagues will look at me and go, Why are you here? Why are you here? 220 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:14,000 And actually, I've done it where I've gone into work. And then I've been so unwell from doing that, but I couldn't go home again. 221 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:19,000 And it's just, you know, but there's that that guilt where I feel like. 222 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:25,000 But. But I should be working because, you know, I don't have a broken leg or whatever. 223 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:30,000 You know, I should I should be going to work. I should be doing something. You know, I've got lots to do. 224 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,000 You know, that wonderful illusion that we have that the world won't keep churning without us 225 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:47,000 If we're not doing our jobs. And how do you feel like your disability  feeds into those kind of overwork, slightly toxic cultures and academia? 226 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:55,000 Yeah, like I said, I think I have been really lucky that my supervisor was incredibly supportive and helps my flexible working and, you know, 227 00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:04,000 the last few months and it's craziness aside, for me, I feel like I'm on track and I'm in a relatively good place with my research. 228 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:11,000 But you're right, it's not retraining your brain and removing those expectations from society and 229 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:16,000 sort of the internalised ableism about what we should and shouldn't be doing. 230 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:22,000 And I think, you know, just to looking at a general terms for everybody in the pandemic, at the stop, 231 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:27,000 you say you're working from home, you should get up and get dressed and make it like you're going to work. 232 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,000 I think that was sort of abandoned a few months in when people realised that that wasn't 233 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:36,000 really sustainable when everyone was struggling with this huge amount of uncertainty. 234 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:41,000 And it's it's the same process for me either. You have to I have to realign my expectations. 235 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:50,000 But you're right. With the toxic culture, I was on a course a few years ago now, and it was supposed to be a session of our well-being. 236 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,000 And the person said, oh, who here actually sticks to their 40 hour week? 237 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:58,000 And I put my hands up and I felt very singled out for it. 238 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,000 And I politely spoke to the person who who wrote it at the end because he was basically saying, 239 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:07,000 oh, well done, you're sticking to what we should be doing. That's what we should be aiming to do. 240 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:12,000 And it's a very brave thing to make sure you stick to your work hours. And I said, we know there are some weeks. 241 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,000 Right, to do a lot more than that. But I try and balance it out with times what I'm doing next. 242 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:21,000 But I said, you know, you brought this up in a context, not knowing what my background was. 243 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:27,000 I don't have a choice. I think if I routinely overwork myself, I won't be able to do any work. 244 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:36,000 I've done that, you know, and that's been part of my journey over the past five years is I have routinely overworked myself and I've ended up. 245 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:43,000 In one case, quite literally, flat on the floor, unable to move so much pain every couple of years ago, I did. 246 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:53,000 I had a week where I did. The induction day in Exeter, which the induction is something I kind of do the all the presenting and talking at it, 247 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:59,000 and I find it incredibly, incredibly draining and it's all on my feet all day, which I'm not good at with my joints. 248 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:04,000 And then did it and drove down to Cornwall the next day and did the same thing in Penryn. 249 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:09,000 And then at the end of that, I drove to Birmingham to present at a conference the next day. 250 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:19,000 And I got back on Thursday and I just told my boss and said, I'm gonna I'm I'm done 251 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,000 I couldn't physically 252 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:30,000 I couldn't get a bed for a week because it was and I you know, like you, I had a fantastic, fantastic boss who, when I got back to work, sat me down. 253 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:35,000 And said you are never doing that again, do you hear me? 254 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:42,000 Like, you cannot physically do that. We will find other ways. But, you know, and that and I felt incredibly guilty. 255 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,000 So I thought, well, that shouldn't be an impossible thing. 256 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:53,000 To do you know, to do things at different campuses and then to travel, to go to a conference, but actually it's the kind of. 257 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:58,000 Situation of well, for me. It is. Yeah. 258 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:05,000 And actually this year, getting to do you know, I did all of those things actually this year, but virtually. 259 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:12,000 And it didn't take anything like the same amount of energy, and because of that, I did a better job of it. 260 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:22,000 And I didn't end up taking a week off work to recover. But it seems to me it's like something you said right at the beginning, 261 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:27,000 which I really relate to, which is, you know, after getting diagnosed and off, you know, 262 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:32,000 going through a period of potentially kind of fighting a medical system that, you know, 263 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:43,000 for us doesn't value or doesn't believe in women's pain and kind of fighting and fighting and fighting to get a diagnosis. 264 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:49,000 You then have to completely reframe your attitude to all of your symptoms. 265 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:55,000 And learn how to manage them, because the way that you've managed them before. 266 00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:00,000 I I don't know how to say this quite, but it doesn't really work. 267 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,000 No, I completely agree. And you know what's wrong? Yeah. 268 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:10,000 I think especially when you do know what's wrong, it's easier to figure out how you can help yourself. 269 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:16,000 And I realise that being an academic does actually come with them on a set amount of privilege when dealing with health in 270 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:23,000 that you have an institutional access to research papers and that you also have the ability to understand those papers. 271 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,000 So I can go to my specialist appointments armed with all of the reading I've done. 272 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:35,000 Yes. Also, knowing what my potential clinical outcomes are and the type of things I would like to experiment with are going to help me. 273 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:42,000 You're right. It was having that label that allowed me to engage with that. And like you said, travelling takes out of me. 274 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:47,000 And I have to build in rest days if I'm travelling for a conference. 275 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,000 It's not an option to not have those who may like it really works me out. 276 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:57,000 And it's the same in my personal life. I'm very just to people who can go on holiday, come back on a Sunday and start work on a Monday, 277 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,000 because I need that day at home to recover, even if I had a great time. 278 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:09,000 Travelling, will take it out of me. And for me, having my diagnosis meant I could pinpoint a few things that help mitigate my symptoms. 279 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,000 Like I actually, for me, the pandemic. 280 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:18,000 Helped some of my symptoms in the sense that I'm always in a prescription built chair or a supportive chair or in bed, 281 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:26,000 which meant that issues with my spine and my neck pain was reducing and I could mitigate that a bit more because I wasn't 282 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:34,000 in a position where I sit in those awkward plastic chairs in a seminar room or a sitting in an uncomfortable lecture hall 283 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,000 And that's something that as the world starts to be open again, 284 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:43,000 I worry about meeting that balance, knowing how much of a difference that's made to me. 285 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:53,000 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, we've talked already about some of the the fears, 286 00:29:53,000 --> 00:30:01,000 the real fears that we and other disabled people have about kind of returning post COVID 287 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:07,000 And that's not even taking into account where people are vulnerable because of their disability, 288 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:16,000 whether that's whether that vulnerability is kind of government approved or government sanctioned or not. 289 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:21,000 The level of challenge, I think. And I think that's the thing that we're seeing. 290 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:30,000 We're hearing a lot within kind of the discussions around Black Lives Matter, as well as the extra physical and emotional labour. 291 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:36,000 Involved in fighting to be on a level playing field with everybody else. 292 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:47,000 Yeah, absolutely, and I think that, you know, especially in the past, that Labour has been done for free and I think that now more institutions are, 293 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:57,000 I guess, realising that this is something that takes a very emotional toll on people, as well as the physical time spent engaging with this. 294 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,000 And they're starting to compensate people for that. 295 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:06,000 I know that some institutions are now starting to pay their speakers who come and talk about this as they should be, 296 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,000 because it is a very difficult thing to navigate. 297 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:18,000 And I think also there's a very large difference between people who research these things and people who experience these things. 298 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:25,000 Lived experience is something that I think isn't taken. 299 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:32,000 It isn't held in as high regard. Yeah, I mean, for me, I'm so lucky that I've had incredibly supportive people in my life, 300 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:41,000 but also I have disabled friends and family who helped me navigate what is quite a difficult world and process and 301 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:51,000 give me that support and introduced me to to theories and metaphors and ways to deal with it and explain it. 302 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:58,000 And you, sadly, especially, you can draw parallels with all sorts of groups that are in a similar situation and 303 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:04,000 that they're not represented and they're not being accredited fairly for their labour. 304 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:10,000 That's something that I really wanted to pick up on. It's a conversation I've had with a few people lately, actually with chronic illnesses, 305 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:16,000 which is about kind of the the the struggles and difficulties of having a chronic 306 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:22,000 illness when you are not surrounded by you don't know any other people with. 307 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:30,000 That chronic illness or another chronic illness. You can relate to and share experience with, you know, have a whinfe as well. 308 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:41,000 We will. Well, I love a whinge. And not having that kind of network of support in a work context were also. 309 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:46,000 The way that not having visible role models as well. 310 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:54,000 Who are disabled or have chronic illnesses, the impact that that has on that sense of sense of belonging. 311 00:32:54,000 --> 00:33:04,000 You know, I when I first got my diagnosis, I knew nobody else under the age of 60 with my medical condition. 312 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:09,000 And as much as kind of I talked to older friends and family. 313 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:14,000 I never felt like they really understood what I was going through. 314 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:19,000 Yeah, because they weren't kind of twenty nine years old and dealing with this diagnosis, 315 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:30,000 and it's only through being very open on social media that I have met and connected with a range of other people who are around the same age as me, 316 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,000 who have the same medical condition as me and provide a supportive community. 317 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:41,000 And sometimes I don't know how I'd cope without that. But I was talking to someone who is chronically ill, who knows no one else. 318 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:48,000 Her age who has her medical condition and feels kind of so isolated and so alone and doesn't feel like as well. 319 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:53,000 She's got people to kind of look up to to see how they how they deal with it and how they cope and how they progress. 320 00:33:53,000 --> 00:34:02,000 And I wondered what. If you had any thoughts about that kind of that culture in academia, about the culture of support, 321 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:08,000 but also that kind of culture of role models that we don't necessarily have. 322 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:15,000 Yeah, I think it's difficult. And I'm the same. I don't know in person anyone my age with my condition. 323 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:20,000 Yeah. And even just in the UK support networks, I found 324 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:26,000 They tend to be the children are much older. Yeah. And it's a difficult thing to come to terms with. 325 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:32,000 But like I said, I've had the privilege of being able to access research papers that help mitigate some of my concerns. 326 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:38,000 And I have an incredibly supportive GP. She is wonderful. But yeah, it's hard. 327 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:46,000 I mean, I think particularly in academia, I'm I'm very open about it because it's not going to change me. 328 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:53,000 And yes, there's always a concern that that may come around and potentially be used against me later on. 329 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,000 But I think that's a risk I'm willing to take, because actually, since I have been more open. 330 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:04,000 Other people have confided in me more and people feel more open and more willing to come and chat to me, 331 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:09,000 even if they don't necessarily have a disability and might need some help navigating a process. 332 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,000 And I've been there and I've done that. And particularly friends again, 333 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:21,000 who are dealing with new diagnosis that the paperwork is hard and sometimes it's just having someone to hold your hand through that process. 334 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:28,000 And yeah, I think you're right, there is a culture about it. And I honestly think unless people speak more openly about it, that's not gonna change. 335 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:33,000 Then I'm say I'm I'm very aware that I have a privilege, that I feel that I'm able to do that. 336 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,000 And, you know, everyone is able to do that. I feel it broadly. 337 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:44,000 The the team and the government is incredibly supportive and welcoming, and I feel safe enough to do that. 338 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:51,000 But you're right that this culture needs to be challenged and it can't be isolating if you don't have anyone who's gone through it. 339 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:56,000 And in all honesty, if it was for the fact that I have a very good friend, that I made her undergraduate, 340 00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:05,000 who we struck solidly campaigns for equality and equity for disabled people and has done throughout her career and and still does. 341 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:14,000 Now, I'm not sure things would have been as easy for me and I wouldn't have been so assertive in making sure my accommodations were made. 342 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:19,000 And I think as sometimes you do kind of have to throw out the rulebook and not be 343 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,000 afraid to pester people when they should be doing something and not be afraid to even say, 344 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:28,000 well, OK, can you give me an update on that? So when is this happening? Can you please give me a progress update? 345 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,000 And yes, that's again, taking extra time. But unless you know. 346 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:38,000 But this podcast I think is great because we are talking about it and it's giving people, I guess, 347 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:47,000 a platform to realise that there are other people who are kind of going at the same thing, that there is a shortage of disabled role models in academia 348 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:51,000 I do wonder sometimes how how do I know I'll be able to stay in academia? 349 00:36:51,000 --> 00:37:00,000 This is an assumption that these students are single, able bodied, have no caring responsibilities and can just up and move. 350 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:06,000 Yes. The thing you're saying now about, you know, two sides lecturing things, saying about privilege is really key 351 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:17,000 And I see lots of points because. One of the things that we do have in academia is more flexibility than other professions perhaps do. 352 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:28,000 And I do feel more much more comfortable being open about my medical problems in an academic environment than I think I would in an industry, 353 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:35,000 because there's a level of. I'm trying to think about how to phrase this 354 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,000 Even if. 355 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:47,000 People aren't understanding and aren't supportive because of the kind of environment we're in, there's at least a perception that people should be. 356 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:57,000 Yeah. And so that feels like a protection because I sort of think, well, if I'm open about it and you do discriminate against me. 357 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:08,000 You can't do that. And I feel like I feel like I have more, more, more power in that situation than I would do in other roles in other industries. 358 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:17,000 But, you know, the lack of role models and the lack of seeing people kind of doing things differently and working flexibly at a more senior level. 359 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,000 It's a concern. Yes, absolutely. 360 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,000 And I hear what you say about academia somewhat because of its nature. 361 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:33,000 I think because of the way we challenge our assumptions, as you do in research, means that you're right. 362 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,000 Even if it's not happening, there's a perception that it should be. 363 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:41,000 And I do worry, especially when I go for a job, interviews and things which I've not done for a while. 364 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:48,000 But when it came to me graduating, I would never apply for a job that didn't have flexi time in the job description 365 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:53,000 And that's just a thing that I have to accept that I need it. And if they're not having it in the job description. 366 00:38:53,000 --> 00:39:00,000 I know I have to have to fight tooth and nail for it. And it's not a fight I'm willing to have. 367 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:04,000 But also, when I go for various jobs, there's someone. Do you have any questions? 368 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:08,000 Oh, yes. Well, how supportive of you about working time? What's your sick policy like? 369 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:14,000 Do you have X, Y, Z? But there's always a worry that if you start asking these questions, they're gonna be. 370 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:21,000 They're going to say something along the lines of, oh, this person seems more trouble than they're worth. 371 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:28,000 It's always a worry, isn't it, that as soon as you start talking about it, people don't understand. 372 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:33,000 And misconceive what it is you're saying. But I think there's also. 373 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,000 A movement is that's broadly trying to be more inclusive and saying these people 374 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:41,000 have just as much to give and have just as much attention as able-bodied people. 375 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,000 We're just not giving them tools of which to do it. 376 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:52,000 Like, for example, I've discovered using my screen reader as a sort of audiobook allows me to engage with materials on days. 377 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:57,000 And previously, I don't feel like I would have been able to achieve much because I couldn't sit at my computer. 378 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:04,000 I saw something someone tweet the other day about actually that some like journal companies like Tayler and Francis, 379 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:10,000 they have read aloud functions on the journal articles. This is kind of. 380 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:15,000 This has completely changed my life, discovering this two days. 381 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:23,000 It's really small, really tiny thing might seem really insignificant people, but all the impact that's going to have. 382 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:32,000 Yeah, I think it's wonderful. But I also think that the onus needs to be on institutions to make sure that particularly you're having to use software, 383 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:36,000 which is big, it's clunky, it takes a lot to run. 384 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,000 You have computers that can adequately run it. Yeah. 385 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:44,000 But, yeah, I think, you know, these little things, though, are starting to make things easier. 386 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:49,000 And the thing is, they don't just make things easier for people with disabilities either. 387 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:58,000 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think there needs to be a change in the perception that changing one thing doesn't mean that you're erasing history. 388 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:04,000 So is the analogy isn't this people say, oh, what? You need to understand why it was there before we start changing it. 389 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:10,000 And I'm sorry, but I don't need to understand why the steps were there to know that some people need a ramp instead. 390 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:19,000 Yeah. Like it's 2020. We need to stop prioritising architecture and history and tradition over people. 391 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:25,000 Oh, that's. That just needs to be a mantra for everything is just. 392 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:31,000 Yeah. Just move for me to think about ending on a slight positive note. 393 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,000 Well, what I kind of like what are our hopes for the future? 394 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:43,000 No, we you know, we're up we're at a moment of change in the world in so many, many ways. 395 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:51,000 Well, what do we hope the world you know, if we we were to kind of talk about our post COVID 396 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:57,000 accessible, inclusive world of academia, what would that be like? 397 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:01,000 Oh, I think definitely what I mentioned about geography earlier. 398 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:10,000 I think we need to stop particularly in academia simply because you've moved around a lot, but that's really important. 399 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:19,000 And especially now we've got all these wonderful tools for collaboration with different institutes and we're able to engage much more online. 400 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:28,000 We wouldn't have before. I don't necessarily think it as needed as before because I think you get that exposure to new ideas and concepts and teams, 401 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:33,000 perhaps not in the same way as you would by moving them. You still get more exposure anyway, way we didn't even 50 years ago. 402 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,000 Yeah. So hopefully geography becomes less of an issue. 403 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:44,000 I think definitely, like you said, the removal of the toxic culture know the normalising of work life balance. 404 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:49,000 And it's something that I particularly found when I've been to open days and things and the oh, what's the work life balance like? 405 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:56,000 People are shocked that someone in that. Well, I guess now mid 20s is prioritising that. 406 00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:03,000 And I think changing the idea and this does affects everyone is so, you know, people with children with caring responsibilities, 407 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:10,000 that career academics are completely unattached and have that freedom is really important. 408 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:16,000 And just making it a more open culture in which we can talk and support each other. 409 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:25,000 And the difference is, I used to help improve life for everyone and improve your research rather than used to disadvantage you. 410 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:33,000 Yeah. And I think we're at a point where because of the way things have changed with COVID, that it can happen. 411 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:41,000 Yeah, I read. Yeah. And I do think this, you know, like like you were saying earlier, I think at the moment there are clear. 412 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:50,000 Issues around accessibility, where the kind of COVID measures on making buildings and systems less accessible, sensible people. 413 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:51,000 But in the long run, 414 00:43:51,000 --> 00:44:00,000 the trend of change in the way of working and the change in people's attitudes feels certainly feels like cave it has brought into the workplace. 415 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:07,000 Might lead us to a more positive shift and an understanding that that positive shift will benefit us all. 416 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,000 Yeah. I think so, and I hope that people are starting to realise that. 417 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:16,000 I think broadly people who've. 418 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:22,000 who come from a place in the pandemic where they've had their own home and they have not had to worry financially. 419 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:29,000 Have in some ways appreciated the chance to slow down and spend that time with their families, even if everything else has been incredibly difficult. 420 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:34,000 And I realise that I fall into that category. I'm so grateful that, you know, my income is stable and I. 421 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,000 I have my own little place with my partner. We have a garden. 422 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:44,000 So for us, you know, spending that time together was great even if we struggled with the rest of the world. 423 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:49,000 And I think that people are prioritising their work life balance and their families. 424 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:57,000 And I just hope as well with with architecture, things like we were talking about doors earlier now touch and contact is an issue for everyone. 425 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:02,000 There's no reason to have not to have electric systems to keep the doors open. And they shut automatically 426 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:07,000 When the fire alarm goes off and little things like that, when I start to consider our hope become a normal, 427 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:16,000 particularly when considering new buildings and refurbishing them, I really hope the priority is to have a say, a disabled person on the committee. 428 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:21,000 So I think a lot of things are not wilfully ignorant. It's just cause, you know, inexperience. 429 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:26,000 And I'm hoping that the more academia embraces diversity, 430 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:31,000 the more we can have open conversations about these things to make sure that that's not the case. 431 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:38,000 Thank you to Megan for taking the time for such a candid and thought-provoking conversation. 432 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:43,000 I wanted to end on the positive note because I do think we're at a tipping point. 433 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:49,000 We're at a point where things could get a lot better for accessibility for 434 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:53,000 disabled and chronically ill people in higher education and all walks of life. 435 00:45:53,000 --> 00:46:03,000 And indeed, in doing so, I do firmly believe and there's an awful lot of evidence to suggest that in in systems being more accessible for disabled people, 436 00:46:03,000 --> 00:47:33,000 they'll be more accessible for everyone. And that's it for this episode. 437 00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:34,000 Don't forget to like, 438 00:47:34,000 --> 00:48:03,073 rare and subscribe and join me next time when I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

In this episode I talk to Tinashe Verhaeghe, who founded the BME Network at the University of Exeter. We discuss activisim, advocacy, emotional labour, freedom of speech - and fundamentally what it is like to be black in HE. If you are interested in black experiences of HE, you might want to listen to the previous epsiode Being a BAME Researcher with Victoria Omotoso.   You can find out more about the University of Exeter BME Network on the university website and twitter.  If you are interested in learning more about structural inequalities in HE, you may find the AdvanceHE Equality in higher education: statistical report 2019 useful.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/    Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Hello and welcome, R, D And The Inbetweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,000 and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,000 Hi, everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens. 4 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:44,000 It's Kelly Preece here. And I'm delighted to be bringing you a follow up episode to my discussion about being a BAME researcher in higher education. 5 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,000 So following the events in America over the summer, 6 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:55,000 I actually made the second episode of this podcast as a special episode where I wanted to talk to one of our BAME researchers about the 7 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:08,000 reality of higher education for someone that is black and therefore working in a structurally and institutionally racist environment. 8 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:15,000 I'm really pleased today to be able to follow up that conversation by talking to one of my wonderful colleagues, Tina, 9 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:29,000 who started the BME network at the University of Exeter and is playing a crucial role in fighting structural racism at our university and beyond, 10 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:41,000 prioritising and amplifying the voice of Black and BAME staff, students, researchers and is generally being a role model, I think, 11 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:53,000 for all of us in how we can challenge power structures and work to make our community a better and more inclusive place. 12 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:58,000 So, like with my episode with Victoria, I'm going to do minimal to no editing of this conversation. 13 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,000 So it's another longer episode. 14 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:12,000 But I think it's important that I don't assert my white privilege and perspective onto this conversation and that I let Tinas words and. 15 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:16,000 Do the fantastic work that they and Tina do. 16 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:27,000 So my name is Tinashe Verhaeghe and I am currently the college EDI manager for  for the College of Social Sciences at the University of Exeter. 17 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:36,000 And I'm also a project manager on a GCRF if funded project called Imagining Futures, which is so cool. 18 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:45,000 I am one of the founders of the BME network and the current chair of the BME network as well. 19 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:57,000 And I run a number of really cool initiatives around race in higher education at the University of Exeter. 20 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:03,000 Brilliant. So the BME network is relatively new 21 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:08,000 The university, if I'm remembering my timeline's right, is at two years old. 22 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,000 Yep, exactly. We started last year, 2019, January. 23 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:18,000 So. Can you tell me a little bit about about how the network got started on? 24 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:26,000 And I guess the why from your perspective? Hopefully it would seem relatively straightforward about why. 25 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:30,000 So I've worked at the university. I studied at the university, first of all. 26 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:37,000 And I was a student in the business school. And I've worked there since I graduated. 27 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:47,000 So that's that would have been since 2011. And it was it was always kind of uneventful, really, 28 00:03:47,000 --> 00:04:00,000 until in 2018 I had a series of personal experiences around that, you know, around race and racism at university. 29 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:10,000 And I realised that the debilitating nature of those experiences was in the fact that I just had no one to talk to about it. 30 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:19,000 No one who understood. No one who could kind of, you know, have that reaction of they said what or or laugh about it together. 31 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:30,000 You know, it was just lonely and it was crushing. And I realised that I've got I've got such a strong support system anyway. 32 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,000 In terms of family and friends. But I think that, you know, 33 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:41,000 the lacking was having another black woman or another woman of colour or a person of colour to talk to about specific things. 34 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:51,000 That was what I didn't have at the time. And I know, as I was saying, I was aware of the fact that I have a strong support system. 35 00:04:51,000 --> 00:05:01,000 I've been at I've been in Exeter for so long and I think my heart broke for people who didn't have what I had. 36 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:07,000 So people who had were going through these experiences that were alone, 37 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:12,000 you know, if you're an international student, for example, your family's abroad. 38 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:19,000 I was an international student, so I get it. I didn't go home for five years at one point. 39 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:23,000 So I. I get it. And I just let you know this is it. 40 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,000 Let's just fix this one thing. At least if I do anything, 41 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:38,000 it's to fix this one thing where we have community and we can all come together and dissect these experiences and make a difference. 42 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:49,000 So I start having conversations with people. And the network officially launched in January 2019. 43 00:05:49,000 --> 00:06:00,000 And certainly, from my perspective, as an ally this has just been going from strength to strength in terms of its. 44 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:07,000 Voice and position in the university, and particularly in latter months, kind of. 45 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:12,000 Really leading the way. 46 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:23,000 For the university start having some really important conversations about race and black attainment and the black attainment gap, amongst other things. 47 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:30,000 Yeah, I was quite interested by what you said about kind of everything kind of being pootling along with everything. 48 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:38,000 Fine. And then you had a couple of instances in 2018 that were really challenging. 49 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:45,000 We've we've talked before, and I think one of the things that really has been much more part of the conversation of 50 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:53,000 late has been about the about structural racism and the ways in which our systems are. 51 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:59,000 Inherently racist in the way that they're built and I wondered if you could talk a little bit about from your perspective, 52 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:11,000 what the what those issues are in higher education, what we know, what aspects of the system are structurally racist. 53 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:23,000 So looking back, one of the things that's that's kind of spurred on this awakening in me was a. 54 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:32,000 Sighs I was trying to get a new job, and I just realised I had a realisation that I am capable, 55 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:41,000 I'm competent and educated andI'm ambitious and I should progress my career and I'd apply for jobs and get interviews, 56 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:46,000 but constantly be told you're completely, you know, completely appointable 57 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:55,000 But and this isn't just, you know, one or two or five interviews. I might have gone for 15 interviews in one year and kept getting the same response. 58 00:07:55,000 --> 00:08:02,000 And that's when I realised that this environment seems to be happy when I'm at a certain level. 59 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:08,000 But when I when I'm wanting to go up that step, it feels harder than it should be. 60 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:22,000 And I think that's an example of how, um, structural racism manifests is in, you know, how difficult it is to progress for people of colour. 61 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:30,000 And, you know, that's evidenced by how thin the number, the numbers get as you go up the organisation, 62 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:37,000 the number of black professors we have or BAME professors, whatever it is, 63 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:47,000 there is evidence that shows that there is that there's a barrier to progression. 64 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:57,000 And we talk about, you know, the attainment gap and how and all of this goes to show that there's a problem. 65 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:06,000 You know, there's a problem with that around the experience of students of colour, 66 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:13,000 because evidentially they are likely to perform less than their white counterparts. 67 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:22,000 And the only thing I can see, only difference I can see is the fact that they are you know, they're people of colour. 68 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:28,000 And I know that it's a societal problem as well. 69 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:34,000 But what can we do to challenge that and address that as the university? 70 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:43,000 And I think Exeter has unique issues in that the city within is predominantly white. 71 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:53,000 Devon is predominantly white. And, you know, even I know I've had I talk to students who told me and staff I you know, 72 00:09:53,000 --> 00:10:00,000 I've had members of staff told me that experiencing racism in the city is the norm. 73 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:07,000 I'm lucky that this isn't the norm for me. If anyone ever expressed overt racism, I'd take note. 74 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:12,000 I have experienced it in the city, but it's not at the stage where they call it the norm. 75 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:28,000 But I've heard that when black students are in town at arts clubbing or whatever, it's the norm to have racist insults thrown at them. 76 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:37,000 So, you know, Exeter, Devon, Cornwall, especially, you have that issue. 77 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:51,000 And I think. Which is, I think, you know, looking at the evidence of the experiences of people of colour in Exeter. 78 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:57,000 That is an issue. It's not even just about listening to people's stories. You can't deny it. 79 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:03,000 I'd I'd almost say show me an area where. 80 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:15,000 People of colour are don't seem to be on the back end of of being able to succeed or progress. 81 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:20,000 I'd almost say. Let's look at it that way, it would be a shorter conversation. 82 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:29,000 Yes, and I think it's the the thing you're saying about the local areas is really interesting for me. 83 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:39,000 I grew up in this area and certainly my kind of when I went to university and I lived to you know, I lived out of Devon for 10, 15 years. 84 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:45,000 And when I would describe multiculturalism in Devon, my sort of explanation was we don't have it. 85 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,000 It hasn't gotten that yet. 86 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:58,000 And certainly since I started working at at the University of Exeter and I've been meeting kind of research students when they start. 87 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:07,000 You know, I've had a couple of BAME researchers say to me very early on kind of that, you know, 88 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:14,000 they go into Exeter and it's it's not necessarily that they're talking about experiences of. 89 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:23,000 Overt racism or racist remarks? Obviously, that does happen. But more the kind of being struck by how. 90 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:28,000 Undiversified. And how overwhelmingly white. 91 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:36,000 And then you kind of come up to this university on the Hill and it's slightly more diverse than the city that surrounds it. 92 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:41,000 But not hugely. I'm. 93 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:50,000 You know, I remember going to Birmingham once. It must have been Birmingham. And I'd never been and stepping off the station. 94 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:56,000 I was like, am I still in England? Where am I? It's so it's so diverse. 95 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,000 I didn't stick. I didn't stick out at all. I didn't. You know, like in Exeter 96 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:07,000 you're walking down the street and you see people of colour, you. They just pop out at you because they're so few of us. 97 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,000 You're like, I see you, you know. And you do that. 98 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:20,000 The acknowledgement that says I see you. Many of us here today and in Birmingham, I remember just it was overwhelming. 99 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,000 I'm like, I don't nod because there's just too many of you. 100 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:32,000 I can't just be nodding at everyone to say hi. That's just how different it was. 101 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:37,000 And I think that's when I realised I, I, I think that's when I realised that. 102 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:44,000 How how different the situation here is. Does that does that make you behave differently? 103 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,000 I mean, I appreciate for certain that it makes other people behave differently. 104 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:53,000 But does it make you behave differently? Do you feel more comfortable? Do you feel more relaxed? 105 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:59,000 I definitely felt more relaxed. I don't know. It's just it felt nice to not stick out. 106 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:06,000 It felt nice to not feel like an awareness of I don't know what people who are around 107 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:11,000 me think because so few of them would look like me and some of them might be racist. 108 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:18,000 I guess that's my reality. You know, it is a reality that some of the people you walk past in town are thinking, 109 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:27,000 I wish she'd go back where she came from without even knowing me. So I definitely felt relaxed. 110 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:32,000 And I think that's something that, you know, as. 111 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:37,000 White people, we don't. It's so far from our. 112 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:42,000 Experience, this is something we don't think about. About that sense of. 113 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:50,000 I didn't quite mean belonging, but comfort in your surroundings, because, you know, you're always surrounded by. 114 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:59,000 People that look like you and you do blend in. Exactly. 115 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:05,000 So you mentioned about there being a particular kind of particular issues, at Exeter and what I would like to get into that. 116 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:15,000 But in terms of so you mentioned the issue of where Exter is located, being a kind of contributing factor. 117 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:22,000 But what...we kind of recognise structural is structural racism is a. 118 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:27,000 Global problem. And, you know, it's it's for sure. 119 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,000 I mean, and we've got so much data to prove it a problem in higher education. 120 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:38,000 What is it about? Exeter. That gives us a particular problem. 121 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:47,000 I I think we've alwaysk, Exeter is, kind of, you know, this elite university, we're very it's very middle class. 122 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:58,000 It's very. I've heard it referred to historically as the green welly attracting the green welly brigades. 123 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:12,000 And, you know, I'm I think I recognise that I have privilege and that, you know, my parents worked so hard to be able to give me the best education. 124 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,000 And there's an extent to which I can come into this environment. 125 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:21,000 And I know how to be a black woman in this environment. 126 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:29,000 I know how to sound like I fit in. And all of that. 127 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:40,000 But there is something about being being from that kind of middle class background, especially like middle class white. 128 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:50,000 That means that you don't. You might you're less likely maybe to understand what it's like to be unheard. 129 00:16:50,000 --> 00:17:04,000 And I do think that the combination of, you know, being having this academic community that is very middle class, 130 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:10,000 white in themselves and then the student body that is similar, 131 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:18,000 but not not complete 100 percent like I'm not but I'm saying to an extent, 132 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:28,000 just has led to the conversation around the experiences of minority communities or marginalised communities being stinted. 133 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:40,000 Yeah. And the progression and development of a more inclusive community being affected by that. 134 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:51,000 And I actually also think that we compartmentalise so as people we've learnt that what I discuss with my 135 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:57,000 friends outside of work or outside of the university is very different to what I discuss when I'm in work. 136 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:06,000 So I might actually be an activist outside of work, but I'm not bringing that into my office and not bringing that into my classroom. 137 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:11,000 And again, there's reasons behind that, you know. What what do we feel like? 138 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:22,000 There's repercussions for speaking out. And I think historically there probably have been because of where the conversation has been at the time. 139 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:28,000 But that also is another reason that I'd say the conversation is stinted 140 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:39,000 But I mean, it's good to see that this change around that as well on that kind of theme about about kind of conversations about race. 141 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:47,000 One of the things that I was interested to talk about was and this notion of academic freedom of speech. 142 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:51,000 There've been several instances nationwide, but I'm thinking of a couple in particular at 143 00:18:51,000 --> 00:19:02,000 Exeter, where comments have been made about trans people and also about 144 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:08,000 BAME people are, and in particular in recent months about colonialism 145 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:16,000 that have been. Viewed as problematic, but have been defended. 146 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:25,000 Perhaps not defended, but dismissed on the basis of. Well, we have academic freedom of speech and we have a right to be critical, 147 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:33,000 and that's our job and that's what we do as an institution, even if what's being said is. 148 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:38,000 Quite obviously problematic to some of us. And. 149 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:47,000 And I wondered what you will what your thoughts were about that, about this nation of academic freedom of speech. 150 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:55,000 Yeah, no, I don't come at this from an academic background cause I'm not an academic. 151 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,000 It's from what I've seen and what I understand today. 152 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:15,000 I have an appreciation for academic freedom of speech and what it allows people to explore and what it could do for future generations. 153 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:33,000 I think for me, it's a problem when it seems to allow people to behave in a way that lacks integrity, when it allows people to. 154 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:42,000 I don't know. Not not act out of good character or. 155 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:49,000 Yeah, it just removes common decency. Cause there's a you know, when when we're talking about these issues, 156 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:57,000 I don't talk about racism out of kind of a ideology and it's academic research or whatever. 157 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:05,000 I talk about it from wanting a better experience, a better lived experience for people. 158 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:14,000 And if and if someone is more if someone's finding that their academic freedom of speech is more important 159 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:21,000 than actually listening to what the individual is saying about the about how they're being oppressed. 160 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:26,000 Yeah. Then what's what are you going to do with that 161 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:34,000 I just I feel like, you know, when people when those kinds of people exist and they can all go about doing their life 162 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:44,000 until something hopefully makes them see that there are people behind these stories. 163 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:52,000 And hopefully they'll come out from behind the academic freedom of speech banner that they're able to hide behind. 164 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,000 And I think part for me as sort of, you know, an academic and a researcher, 165 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:04,000 that is there's something in there about hiding behind the objectivity of research that is kind of fantasy that we have that, 166 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:12,000 you know, research is objective. We're not looking at it. You know, our personal experiences and our viewpoints and the lived experience. 167 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:19,000 People don't come into it. We're just looking at this. We're stepping back and we're looking at it objectively as if that's in any way possible. 168 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:25,000 And actually, you know, there were a lot of research traditions that in sort of the past couple of decades that have moved beyond that and said, 169 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:31,000 well, a, you can't do that if it involves human beings, it's inherently subjective and biased. 170 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:39,000 What would that be? Why would we want to in that way? Why would we want to look at experiences of race and colonialism objectively? 171 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,000 Because they aren't objective. They're subjective. 172 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:49,000 And I'm you're saying that we're talking about people's lived experience or why would we want to talk about it in a way that's disconnected from that? 173 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:58,000 Exactly. That's so true. And on an academic level, it's it's one of my frustrations on an on a purely academic level. 174 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:08,000 It makes no sense to me because of that, let alone the kind of more kind of moral kind of, 175 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:18,000 you know, kind common decency of angle to which, of course, is more important. 176 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:30,000 And I think inside, you know, I think about how academia is built on the basis of white supremacy and how. 177 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:41,000 Until we understand that this notion of academic freedom of speech is built on the ideology of white supremacy, there's power dynamics involved in it. 178 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:51,000 And it's never going to be something that allows society to move on an inclusive way. 179 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:57,000 Absolutely. And that and that academic freedom of speech is not academic freedom of speech for all. 180 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:05,000 Exactly. It's for people with identities that we find most comfortable or palatable. 181 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:11,000 Exactly. And that that's a really important because I think there is like. 182 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:23,000 You know, it does. I often hear the argument, you know, for lots of different and minority groups that will, you know, will. 183 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:31,000 But. But, you know, you can't overtly decide to pay someone less or because they're a woman or not promote them 184 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:37,000 because they're black or not hire them because they're disabled and all that sort of thing. You know, if you can't do that, it doesn't happen. 185 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,000 We have we have processes against it. And you go, but. But but. 186 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:48,000 So then why do we not have more of these people represented in senior management? 187 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:53,000 And it's not the. Those. 188 00:24:53,000 --> 00:25:03,000 It's not that the decisions are necessarily overtly racist, but if you got a system that's based on white supremacy and, you know, 189 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:15,000 privileges, white, male, cis, middle class, straight voices, then inevitably you're going to be making decisions that are based on. 190 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:22,000 That history. Exactly. Exactly. 191 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:32,000 It's it's inherently. It's inherently racist and oppressive and you which to you know, when it's not thinking outside the box, 192 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:40,000 being innovative in approaching these issues and not do what we've always done, because, look, we're what we've always done has left us, you know. 193 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:50,000 Yeah. Absolutely. And I think, you know, in that in terms of my own. 194 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,000 Journey to understand this as a white person. 195 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:58,000 I think, you know, one of the things that it was challenging. 196 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:05,000 To get my head round was the ways in which things are, you know, systems are structurally racist and, 197 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:13,000 you know, systems, academia are built on white supremacy because I don't see it. 198 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,000 Because it doesn't it. I was gonna say it doesn't affect me. 199 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:22,000 It does affect me. It affects me positively. And. 200 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:29,000 You know, and I think as well in learning about race and racism, learning the. 201 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:36,000 Learning that kind of. Racism isn't just racial slurs. 202 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:46,000 And I think that's been quite a. A different quite quite a challenging thing to wrap my head around. 203 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:52,000 I think over the years and has completely changed my. 204 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:57,000 My perspective on. On systems. 205 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:09,000 But I think it's still. You know, for instance, it's only really in recent years that when. 206 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:17,000 I've. So I I when I walk in a room to a meeting, say particularly kind of any any kind of management meeting, 207 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:24,000 I will always know how many women are in that room. And I will always make a mental note of, oh, 208 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:32,000 I'm the only woman in this room or I'm one of three women in this room and two of us are taking notes or whatever it is. 209 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:40,000 But it's only in recent years that I've. Start to walk into a room and go, hang on a minute. 210 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:46,000 You're thinking about whether or not there were women in this room because you're a woman and because that's what you're looking for. 211 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:53,000 And you're looking for. People like you, but realising that the majority of you know, I. 212 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,000 So I worked in HE for eleven years now in a variety of different roles. 213 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:09,000 And if I look back and think hard, I can remember very few rooms I was in that had people in them that weren't white. 214 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:15,000 Yes, very few. But I really struggle to remember. 215 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:21,000 Yeah, and that's and that's not from some lofty thing of I don't see right in all of that sort of stuff, it's thinking back. 216 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:33,000 I'm like, no, I'm pretty sure the majority of meetings and rooms and events I've been involved in in H-E have been almost completely white. 217 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:41,000 Yeah, and. It's. You know, we have we have the data. 218 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:46,000 Know we have acres of it and it and it's completely stark. 219 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:56,000 But that doesn't seem to be. Doesn't seem to be enough to convince people of how much of a problem this is 220 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:02,000 Completely. There's lots of explanations that I mean, 221 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:11,000 I don't think there are lots of explanations I've heard when you ask about the number of people who work at the university. 222 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:21,000 But a big one is look at the context of Exeter. You know, it's difficult to to find the people. 223 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:36,000 And, you know, I can understand that. But, you know, I think of the number of people who've kind of been interviewed for jobs who just have not been appointed here. 224 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:46,000 And I know it might not have made the world of a difference and might not have meant that walking on on campus is like walking in Birmingham. 225 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:55,000 But it would have made a difference if people actually stopped to examine I mean, what was happening with our hiring practises. 226 00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:04,000 And I really like what you say because I always wonder I mean, I'm often the only black woman in a room. 227 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:10,000 I've I feel lucky that I've had a black manager in my career here. 228 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:19,000 And I have had someone I've actually seen someone, a black woman managing and seen that you have had that role model. 229 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:28,000 And I feel really lucky for that, about as they I actually realised that a lot of people might not ever have had that. 230 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:37,000 And I think about the number of managers who don't have any kind of diversity around them at all, 231 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:50,000 or the number of people who are able to make a change, who could go through months without having had a meeting that has someone who is on. 232 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:57,000 Not that it does have to be equal footing, but has a position of responsibility in authority, 233 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:02,000 who is a person of colour around them and how comfortable that seems to look for them, 234 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:11,000 because they don't don't ever they don't seem to be uncomfortable with it. 235 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:18,000 And I think, you know, I hear a lot from students as well as when people start here where am I represented. 236 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:27,000 I have no black professors, I have no black teacher leads or whatever, where I'm not represented anywhere. 237 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,000 I don't feel represented on the core set of your my course, I don't feel represented. I don't feel like I've. 238 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:38,000 I don't have a role model. And I think it's just. 239 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:45,000 These are the reasons that we talk about these issues because, you know, we talk about the BME attainment gap and one of the. 240 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:54,000 Like, how can we expect people to succeed when the measures of success around them are not represented in that, you know? 241 00:31:54,000 --> 00:32:09,000 No. And and also that the reach to achievement have infinitely more blocks and hurdles and placed in in the way you know, 242 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:16,000 it's not like everybody's everybody's walking through the same I, you know, perfectly open door. 243 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:26,000 It's not. It's not as simple as that and I you know, I remember myself, you know, thinking when I was younger that that thing, 244 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:33,000 you know, had a very kind of idealistic kind of meritocracy idea that we know if you work hard, you can do anything. 245 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:39,000 Well, no, that's not that's. It's just infinitely not that simple because. 246 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:45,000 No, if. And I think the thing about not seeing people represented is interesting is it just perpetuates. 247 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:58,000 If you don't see yourself represented in academia, in like having black professors and role models, then you don't consider that to be a route that. 248 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:04,000 You would go down because you don't see yourself modelled in that. And then we, you know, we continue to get it, 249 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:11,000 getting this perpetual cycle of people that see themselves so they don't pursue those career routes or pursue those opportunities. 250 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:16,000 And it just. All that does is reinforce. 251 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:26,000 The status quo. Right, yeah. And it seems to me. 252 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,000 And that. 253 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:39,000 Therefore, what we need to be doing is taking a step back from that whole process and going, okay, what can we do to, you know, if we're not hiring? 254 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:44,000 Very many black people, if we're not attractzing that many black researchers or black academics. 255 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:56,000 What what can we do? More actively recruit. 256 00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:04,000 academics to create and to put policies and environment in place that would make black academics and students want to come here. 257 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:11,000 If we think that's the issue, then what what can we do to to change the environment, 258 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:16,000 to be more attractive, but also not, I think, go out and actually. 259 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:22,000 Find people not expect kind of people to come to us. 260 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,000 That's so interesting, is that what I mean? 261 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:38,000 I think in the last 12 months especially, there've been a number of open letters written to the university about racism and race at the university. 262 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:44,000 And I actually there's a number of commonalities around across all the letters. 263 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:50,000 But one commonality is that not not one of them talks about increasing diversity. 264 00:34:50,000 --> 00:35:01,000 Not one of them says we need more people of colour. All of them are just talking about the current environment and watch and what needs to be changed. 265 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:09,000 And I, I just find that I found that interesting because it is saying that it is this what 266 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:15,000 needs to happen in this environment for people to actually kind of recommend Exeter to people, 267 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:21,000 you know, the students and people who are looking for jobs, but also because we know that you'll come and succeed, 268 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:26,000 not that you'll you'll come here and have to fight racism, you know? 269 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:35,000 I think of. The student body and how some, you know, some people could go through their whole career. 270 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:43,000 I kind of have, you know, a relatively positive experience, let's say relatively, because no one has a perfect experience. 271 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:56,000 But. But not. But without having to kind of spend emotional or physical energy and labour towards improving the environment around them. 272 00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:03,000 But the likelihood that black students have to come here and then be students but also be activists. 273 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:11,000 Yeah. Is, well, higher than their white counterparts. 274 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:24,000 And I just think about the time and energy that that takes. And it breaks my heart to think that that's an experience that people have as standard just 275 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:33,000 because you are experiencing the oppression of racism and structured racism at the university, 276 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:41,000 you know. Yeah. And I think that's another that's another thing I wanted to pick up on, really, 277 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:47,000 is this is this sense of labour and I mean, you know, literal physical labour, 278 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:56,000 but it largely kind of mental and emotional labour that goes into being being black or being BAME in 279 00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:03,000 this kind of environment where you don't have the same opportunities to progress and to succeed. 280 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:07,000 And that, you know, potentially as a student, you're thinking about coming to university. 281 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:15,000 Like you said, you're not just thinking about coming to university to enjoy it and to work and get your degree, but making a decision of do I want. 282 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:22,000 Do I want to be a part of this system where I have to in some shape or form? 283 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:28,000 Fight for me right to be there. Well, I mean, 284 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:37,000 I think that the idea that that idea of black people having to it to be the voices that 285 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:44,000 change the system in a in a place like Exeter is only exacerbated by how few of us they are. 286 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:53,000 So I'm really the only black person meeting who then has to say, oh, hey, you know what? 287 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,000 Something horrific is happening in the black community internationally. 288 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,000 And I have to tell people that I'm not coping because of this. 289 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:08,000 And I'm not even saying this because for me, but I'm saying it because we have black students and I'm hoping that I'm not 290 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,000 the only black member of staff that those people might be around that day. 291 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:21,000 And it's good practise for us to know what's going on across the world so we can support each other and be more inclusive environment. 292 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:26,000 But this ends up being just constant for me in the workplace. 293 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:31,000 I'm constantly the one who will have to say in a meeting. OK. 294 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:41,000 What are the implications of that? Or is there an awareness of what J.K. Rowling has been saying about trans people? 295 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:48,000 And what's what's what are we. What it what message are we wanting to send as colleagues and to our students? 296 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,000 Do we are we just ignoring it? I'm really not aware of it. I do. 297 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:59,000 I know it's confusing for me, but it's my I know it's been, what, 298 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:08,000 almost two years now that I've been working with the network and it's been a roller coaster. 299 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:20,000 Personally, I feel like I am constantly broken into pieces by conversation, hearing what people's experiences are like on the ground. 300 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:30,000 Yes. And it's just heartbreaking to know that that's that's happening, but also seeing how incredible these people are. 301 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:36,000 They just, you know, there's an awareness that racism is the white people's problems. 302 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:41,000 It's that white person's problem is not my problem. I am phenomenal and capable. 303 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:52,000 And you, whoever it is that's perpetuating the racism, just has a lot of work to do themselves, to be better people. 304 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:58,000 But it's still it's not easy. It's still difficult. And I think so personally. 305 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:02,000 The person probably seen my struggles the most is my husband. 306 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:14,000 He's seen me where I'm just completely broken because of how hard I have to work and how little the returns feel. 307 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:22,000 And but, you know, there's also. I find that the people in the university that I can work with. 308 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:31,000 And we do really good work. But it's the people who are not convinced. 309 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:35,000 I don't know who don't feel that racism is worth putting effort towards. 310 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:44,000 Who was whose response to racism seems to its feels performative because of the things they say behind closed doors. 311 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:50,000 And I've had those experiences of things said behind closed doors where. 312 00:40:50,000 --> 00:41:01,000 And then also having that, I think that's probably what's broken me the most, is seeing how people who are performative get away with that. 313 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:06,000 They not only get away with being performative, but they get away with with doing with saying things that are harmful behind closed doors. 314 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,000 Yeah. But because there's a power dynamic at play. 315 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:15,000 They come out smelling like roses, you know. Yeah. 316 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:21,000 So that's one of the things that really gets me. 317 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:30,000 And I'm I'm so big on justice. I'm so big on social justice that I want to I want to shake up the system and say this is wrong. 318 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:38,000 But then I'm also just aware of how strong the the political dynamics are in higher education and life in general, 319 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:45,000 but in higher education specifically. That's very hierarchical. It's incredibly political. 320 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:52,000 And you have to pick your I. I've come to a stage where I you know, I have to pick my battles. 321 00:41:52,000 --> 00:42:01,000 And I also, you know, have to think about where I want to invest my own emotional energy. 322 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:11,000 Yeah. There's an extent to which I actually feel that the university, there are pockets in the university where really, really good work is being done. 323 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:19,000 I've and I I have faith and trust that there'll be really, really good outcomes out of it. 324 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:30,000 And it is more about setting up systems where people are incentivised to think about the racism and race 325 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,000 power dynamics because there isn't an incentive if if someone's not engaged. 326 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:43,000 How do you engage people who are not engaged, basically? And I think that's where the issue will always lie. 327 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:52,000 But, you know, I also feel a level of frustration that I can't just have I can't just build my career. 328 00:42:52,000 --> 00:43:02,000 Why do I have to be an advocate advocates alongside building a career? 329 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:07,000 You know, I think. I just want to. 330 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:12,000 I'm doing this because when when my kids are working, 331 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:16,000 I'm hopeful that they will be in a position where they are more likely to be able to just 332 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:21,000 build their careers without having to be activists because of the colour of their skin. 333 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,000 They can be activists because the world will always need it, 334 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:30,000 but not because their mom was black, that they need to do this to do things. 335 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:38,000 In addition to what? Other people who have a level of privilege that they don't have can do. 336 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:43,000 And that really reminds me of what you said earlier about your kind of your experience of of trying to 337 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:49,000 progress and going in to interview for jobs and always being told you were appointable 338 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:53,000 appointable not appointed is what I call it. 339 00:43:53,000 --> 00:44:00,000 And I suppose seeing it in that situation and feeling that frustration and all of the work that needs to be done. 340 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:07,000 Whilst I am imagining you're watching white colleagues. 341 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:15,000 progress up that ladder more easily. Completely. 342 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:22,000 And I that's completely right. I think I remember looking at my credentials. 343 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:27,000 I'm looking at the credentials of different colleagues are not. I'm not into comparing way 344 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:35,000 I guess not having had a mentor to actually at one stage say, Tina, you are incredible. 345 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:42,000 And you your to affirm your ambition. Having to affirm that ambition in myself because no one else is no good for you. 346 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:51,000 First of all. And then kind of pegging where you you you should be in your career using kind of do it in a measured way, 347 00:44:51,000 --> 00:45:02,000 not just kind of finger in the sky approximation, but seeing that there are people who you operate at the same level. 348 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,000 And. But it's it's just proving to be impossible for you. 349 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:15,000 And also accepting accepting the fact that. I I don't I don't feel entitled to these jobs. 350 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:26,000 But on the balance of probability, once you've had a certain number of interviews and you're appointable, something's got to work out right. 351 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,000 All of the things that you get told it it's it's to do with the candidate pool or this, you know, 352 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:37,000 that just happens to be somebody that's already working in that area or at that level or, you know, whatever the rationale is. 353 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:42,000 There's got yeah. Logic tells me that at some point that's got to work in your favour. 354 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,000 Exactly. At some point. And it's that point came 355 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:56,000 But I just feel like that that point came after a hell of a lot of attempts. 356 00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:04,000 And it's also, you know, it's difficult to to to say that because you're kind of like. 357 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:11,000 I don't know, like you imagine that people are like, oh, but maybe you weren't ready for the job or you weren't good at the job. 358 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,000 That is, there's rationales reasons that people will have for that. 359 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:20,000 And some of them might be true, but I. I do. 360 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:26,000 So I say this because it's not just my experience. 361 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:34,000 I have colleagues who go through similar things where I like you've got how many degrees and you're what grade and you've been trying to progress, 362 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:41,000 but you're getting you're finding it impossible, you know. And this is in the professional services, not in academia. 363 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:52,000 I mean, I certainly know from my from my experience as a as a woman in this environment and also trying to progress that I've got. 364 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:57,000 I've got to the kind of level where women tend to top out. 365 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:04,000 In H-E and so trying to progress beyond that is there is an ongoing challenge. 366 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:10,000 And I think one of the things that. 367 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:20,000 One of the things that I've I've struggled with, and I wondered if it it was a similar experience, is after a certain number of rejections, 368 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:26,000 kind of even though people are saying that you're appointable going well, is is there something wrong with me? 369 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:37,000 Why isn't it? Why is it that I keep getting rejected? I think it's very easy to then take the not the blame of it, because it's not. 370 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,000 But go. Oh, there must be something wrong with me. 371 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:48,000 And I feel really privileged to have wonderful people, particularly women in my life, to turn around, to go. 372 00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:54,000 No, it's not you. It's the system. 373 00:47:54,000 --> 00:48:03,000 But it's very difficult not to take your sense of responsibility and a sense of almost failure onto yourself. 374 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:10,000 Even if you know logically that the issue is more about the system than it is about you. 375 00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:16,000 And I wondered if that was the same kind of. It. 376 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:28,000 Yeah, completely, I don't know if there's a way to not take it on you in some way and without exactly 377 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:35,000 and without that that voice that does say there's something with the system. 378 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:41,000 You will take it on. And I think that's part of what I was trying to say before. 379 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:52,000 But you definitely summed it up perfectly. Is that, you know, you can go after you after your nth rejection. 380 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:57,000 What else could I have done? You know, what else could I have done? What's wrong with me? 381 00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:06,000 I am I just fooling myself to think that I should invest in this ambition that I have. 382 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:14,000 And this. And the fact that I know I can do this job or whatever. 383 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:24,000 But I think I I actually started to think about what this about unconscious bias and, you know, 384 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:32,000 the training that we get in light of the fact that a lot of the interviews I'll have, 385 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:41,000 the positions would likely to be take to be given to the successful candidate is likely to be a white woman. 386 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:46,000 And the person who was in the position before is likely to be a white woman. 387 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:52,000 And I think there's something to be said about unconscious bias when you're filling 388 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:57,000 a position in a way that's like for like when it comes to these characteristics, 389 00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:08,000 because you can't see out fo the box, you can't see that there's something block stopping you from seeing someone who looks different in that position. 390 00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:16,000 So I think for me, it's something that I had to that I have to could I have to keep reminding myself that it's not me? 391 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:26,000 I mean, I I'm always I'm someone who's into growing as a person, developing myself. 392 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:32,000 So I I you know, would I get feedback, I will take it on board. 393 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:39,000 But there's an extent to which I it guess there's something about the system that is blocking. 394 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:43,000 There's nothing more difficult than it has to be. 395 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:51,000 And I have to keep reminding myself of that because it's important it's important that I don't internalise what's going on. 396 00:50:51,000 --> 00:51:00,000 And I keep forging ahead and I keep trying to make a difference for future generations. 397 00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:09,000 And I think that really, for me, relates back to what you were saying earlier about the, you know, why you set up the network. 398 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:14,000 And the importance of it is is having those. 399 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:26,000 but also just people around you who share in that experience who can kind of be your voice of reason outside yourself to help you not internalise. 400 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:31,000 Everything, actually. Exactly. 401 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:39,000 And we do. I have colleagues that we have these conversations with about because I'm not the only one who struggled in this way. 402 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:47,000 We talk about how how frustrating it is. 403 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:53,000 And it's a it's a shared experience for amongst some of us. 404 00:51:53,000 --> 00:52:01,000 Yes. One of the things I'm I'm interested in hearing about from you as well is. 405 00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:11,000 What? What's changing, I'm not gonna say changed, but what's what's starting starting that process of changing as a result of. 406 00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:16,000 The BME network, I know from a sort of again, as an outsider, 407 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:30,000 I'm seeing a lot more conversation here at university level about issues to do with race and certainly initiatives and events around race. 408 00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:36,000 But I wondered kind of what. Well, from your perspective, feels like it's changing. 409 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:48,000 If if anything. Yeah. So I a I'd say that's the allies are definitely bringing the ship in to work more. 410 00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:52,000 I can't speak for the student community because I don't know. 411 00:52:52,000 --> 00:53:01,000 But in terms of the work environment, people who are in positions all over at different levels in the university are 412 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:05,000 definitely bringing their allyship in to work and trying to and people 413 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:10,000 who and people are encouraging and watching them that made it motivate themselves 414 00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,000 to learn more about what race and racism mean for them in a work context, 415 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:24,000 which is phenomenal. And it's leading to a lot of these initiatives that would not have taken place before without the move. 416 00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:31,000 There's more conversations going on. And when I started. 417 00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:39,000 This whole journey in general. I remember thinking. I don't understand how we can have such white leadership and be expected to just naturally 418 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:49,000 trust that our that my best interests are being incorporated into a decision or that may. 419 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:55,000 That's the vantage point of being a black woman in this institution is appropriately being represented in decision making. 420 00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:58,000 I just I don't understand that. 421 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:11,000 And I think that I'd say that there is definitely more conversation and there are there's more relationships of trust being built, 422 00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:18,000 which is important because I think actually I'd say that the university, 423 00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:24,000 as there are pockets in the university that are recognising that you don't just assume 424 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:33,000 you have trust or that as a community we are saying we deserve to be able to trust you. 425 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:37,000 And if you can't subscribe to that, 426 00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:42,000 then we're going to have an issue that when you talk about or we actually just that there's going to be 427 00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:48,000 something done about the fact that you don't think that you owe a duty of care to us as a community. 428 00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:57,000 and we knows that white assumptions and understanding about race and racism are massively flawed? 429 00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:08,000 So, you know, and if I can recognise that as a white person and recognise and recognise the flaws in my previous thinking as well, 430 00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:12,000 you know, how can we not realise that? Of course, if you're black, 431 00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:24,000 you don't trust white management to represent your views because you know that any guesswork they're doing about your experience is. 432 00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:30,000 A lot of the time wholly inaccurate. And that's not necessarily of a fault of theirs. 433 00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:36,000 But you've not lived it. So how how do how can you really understand the reality of that experience? 434 00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:41,000 And if you've not lived it and if you're not engaging with people's experience. Exactly. 435 00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:49,000 It's completely yet. And I think as as members of this community, I for one, was I. 436 00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:54,000 OK. So we're in a situation where our leadership is white. 437 00:55:54,000 --> 00:56:01,000 How are we going to enter a dialogue that shows that we can reach you, get you. 438 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:07,000 I want to hear the language. What kind of language you're using? I want to know how we interact. Are you are you defensive when we're interacting? 439 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:14,000 Or are you are you are you are you saying the right things? 440 00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:23,000 Are you say acknowledging the fact that things as they are are not ideal in any way, but we're working towards it or when we're in a meeting? 441 00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:32,000 Are you using me just as lived experience or as a professional woman in your organisation? 442 00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:39,000 So that that we've had conversations with different people in management at the university and they've 443 00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:50,000 I think that's that's been a really positive change for us and an opportunity for people to be able to be frank in conversation 444 00:56:50,000 --> 00:57:04,000 and to actually be building with when it comes to a lot of these initiatives as opposed to them being completely top down. 445 00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:09,000 And the conversation element is just crucial in general across the university. 446 00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:14,000 There's I think, you know, this is. A term like no other, 447 00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:20,000 when we look at the comms around race and racism and the university and even looking at 448 00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:26,000 Sir Steve Smith acknowledging certain things about race and racism at the university. 449 00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:33,000 In his last address to the staff shows that there is. 450 00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:41,000 There is something different about how things are now, and I think they even completely different how things were at the beginning of last year. 451 00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:47,000 Completely different. And the network has we've been so busy. 452 00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:51,000 We've worked so hard as a community.  Yeah. 453 00:57:51,000 --> 00:58:02,000 We've worked so hard as a community to make sure that we are seen and that we're not only seen as people with lived experience, 454 00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:06,000 but we are professionals. We are capable, we're competent. 455 00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:12,000 And in ourselves, where I think there's there's an extent to which I'm like, OK, you know what? 456 00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:22,000 You might be more senior than me, but don't don't be fooled to think that you are more capable than me in any way. 457 00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:29,000 I have the fact that I'm a black woman that I work with every day. 458 00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:34,000 Things would have been things would be different if we were in we were switched places. 459 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:39,000 So I think in me, it's that understanding that I might not have that position. 460 00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:44,000 But there are reasons for that. It's not because I am incapable or incompetent. 461 00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:49,000 So I'm going to act like that person has that position, because that's what I think. 462 00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:59,000 That's what needs to happen for things to get done. And whoever it is that I'm talking to can can kind of process how they want for themselves. 463 00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:06,000 But you can't deny the fact that what we're saying makes sense and things need to change. 464 00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:12,000 So you can you know, we can process it together. We're going to be available to process things with you. 465 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:17,000 But not. But not when you're looking down on us in any way. 466 00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:22,000 Then we're just gonna go round you over your head or whatever, because things need to get done. 467 00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:28,000 So in all of this, we've talked about all of the issues and all of the work that you're doing and some 468 00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:33,000 of the really positive changes that are happening in our university community, 469 00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:41,000 certainly. And so I wanted to finish by asking you, what do you hope for? 470 00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:49,000 If I was going to hope for anything out of this conversation, it would be that, you know, 471 00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:57,000 we need to expand our horizons, expand our perspectives and think about the different experiences around us. 472 00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:03,000 Not, not Think that everyone sees life through our lenses and be open to that. 473 01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:13,000 And also be vocal in creating an environment in which more more people can succeed. 474 01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:18,000 And the voices of more people are are included. 475 01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:22,000 Thank you so much to Tina for taking the time to talk to me. 476 01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:31,000 I found our conversation really challenging and humbling and moving in equal measure, 477 01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:40,000 particularly around discussions of the importance of community, the importance of seeing people who look like you to being part of a community, 478 01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:47,000 but also having a support network where you are encountering racism, whether that be through overt racism, 479 01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:58,000 racism or micro aggressions or structural racism that say you've got people to share those experience with experiences with that you can relate to. 480 01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:03,000 I'm hoping that this discussion will be the start of a series of episodes of this podcast 481 01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:07,000 throughout the next few months on discriminated groups and their experiences of H-E. 482 01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:16,000 I think it's really important to open up the discussion and to be honest about what it's like to 483 01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:21,000 have a protected characteristic or be part of a minority group and operate in our environment. 484 01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:53,570 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, ratre and subscribe and join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers, development, and everything in between.

In this episode we welcome new PGRs to the start of the academic year with a special episode on starting your research degree with contributions from Catherine Cartwright, Jamie Cranston, Edward Mills, Victoria Omotoso, Warren Speed and Emily Taylor, talking about their experiences of starting their research degrees, and advice they have for those joining our community this September.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Hello and welcome to R, D and The Inbetweens. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:32,000 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:39,000 Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of R, D and the In Betweens to celebrate the start of the academic year at the University of Exeter. 4 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:45,000 We've got lots of new PGRs joining us. And so I wanted to do an episode that was about getting started with your research degree. 5 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,000 So what I've done over the past few weeks is I've spoken to a variety of our postgraduate 6 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,000 researchers and asked them what it was like for them starting a research degree. 7 00:00:53,000 --> 00:01:02,000 And what advice they'd give to someone coming in. But before we dispense with the advice, let's start with a warm welcome. 8 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,000 I'm Emily. I'm just going into the second year of my PhD 9 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,000 And I really want to say a big welcome to the University of Exeter. 10 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:17,000 Shame can't do it in person at this time, but it doesn't mean that you're welcome any less. 11 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:22,000 And I hope you have a great time. Congratulations as well. 12 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:28,000 And on achieving your goal, getting the place. 13 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:35,000 So let's start by talking about how does it feel to start a research degree. Here 4 of our PGRs 14 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:42,000 Catherine Cartwright, Edward Mills, Victoria Omotoso, and Warren Speed talk about their feelings of nervousness, 15 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:49,000 disorientation and uncertainty during those first few months and indeed that first year. 16 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:58,000 Well, I had said it's pretty disorientating coming to what is a massive university, 17 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:08,000 much busier than what I was usde to on, my M.A., which was on a kind of side campus that where I was. 18 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:20,000 And it's just remembering what it's like to be new somewhere and be new at something intimidating is how I describe it, actually. 19 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,000 I spent a year out of academia doing teaching. 20 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:31,000 I was very enthusiastic about getting back into it. But I was also nervous that I might not have a clue what I was actually doing. 21 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:39,000 It's a whole research thing. I was very lucky to get very good support from the staff, from the Doctoral College here at Exeter and also from my supervisors. 22 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:48,000 But. I think it is a very natural thing to feel to feel nervous about starting a degree 23 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:53,000 So at best, it was all quite uncertain. Of course, everyone's really excited to start a PhD 24 00:02:53,000 --> 00:03:06,000 But for me personally, I didn't I can't really comprehend what that meant in terms of how to kind of kick it off, kick off this PhD journey 25 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:15,000 I think the first thing that was super helpful for me was having first contact with my supervisors. 26 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:21,000 It was tricky at the beginning trying to navigate what it was actually trying to do. 27 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,000 I had no idea what I was doing my PhD in. 28 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:30,000 But I don't think you really do have an idea of what you want to do a PhD in, especially with social sciences and in my 29 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:36,000 And for me, until you get into your second year and you really start thinking about the questions 30 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:41,000 that you need to ask or what it is you're looking for properly and you get into it. 31 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:46,000 But having a great supervisor supporting it is great. 32 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:55,000 I've got brilliant one. He's really supportive. So speak to your supervisor speak to your personal tutor, the personal tutors, they've heard everything. 33 00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:03,000 So don't be afraid to speak to them. The other thing is, is when you your first year is always gonna be an absolute mess. 34 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,000 Well, for me, it for a lot of my friends. It was anyway. We're not really sure what we're doing. 35 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:13,000 We did a lit review. Bits of introduction. Little bits of questions of methods and application forms, whatever. 36 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:19,000 That's what the first year like the first year is just meh. The second is hard. 37 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,000 I found because that's usually when you start doing data collection and it can be really difficult. 38 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:34,000 And don't underestimate data collection and do not underestimate how long it can take to organise to find participants to get involved in research. 39 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,000 Think what Warren's saying is really poignant. 40 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:44,000 You know that first year is challenging you're finding the direction of your research or trying to find a narrow down what it is that you're doing. 41 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:49,000 And so it has a lot of challenges in learning new skills in terms of managing your time, 42 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:58,000 but also learning new research skills and learning to to sit in that uncertainty and how to be productive within it. 43 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:06,000 And we've got some great tips from Catherine and Edward about things you can do in that first year to help you to use Warren's word, 44 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:13,000 organise the mess in that first term and ongoing. 45 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:19,000 I think it's really useful to keep some sort of diary or journal, which you don't have to write much in it. 46 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:29,000 But what I kept note of was what I did each day, because it's very easy to feel like you haven't been doing anything or you haven't achieved anything. 47 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:34,000 But you can look back and you go. Oh, yeah, of course. I took that training course. 48 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:40,000 I spent like two hours figuring out how to use this database. Oh, it's the library. 49 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:50,000 Oh, I did this. And so when that kind of little telling of voice in your head says that you haven't done anything, 50 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:54,000 you can look back and go, oh, well, actually, I've done a lot. 51 00:05:54,000 --> 00:06:01,000 And that  I stopped it from while I started it back during lockdown. 52 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:08,000 And during this time. And it gives me a certain structure and boundaries. 53 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:15,000 The way that I dealt with a lot of those nerves was to just dive headfirst into doing PhD 54 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:24,000 The advice I was given from the start, which I think is is good advice, is to write from the beginning, something you'll hear a lot in humanities 55 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,000 in particular, but I think it's important in sciences, too. 56 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:33,000 It's very tempting to think of your first year with your research year, or even of your first month as your research month. 57 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:40,000 Oh, I've not got anything to write about. What could I possibly do at this stage apart from read things? 58 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:49,000 And to an extent, that's true. But what I found myself doing was writing something in response to a specific bit 59 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:53,000 of primary reading I had done. It didn't really matter what I was writing. 60 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,000 And then a couple of weeks in, I met with my supervisors again and we said, Okay. Yep. 61 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:02,000 Can you work this up into an extended version of your research proposal, which you've submitted before 62 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:09,000 you started your PhD obviously. And that was basically my way of dealing with the nerves of. 63 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:17,000 writing in response to a prompt that I had set myself. So that's about actually starting the research degree and starting the research. 64 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:24,000 But what about building a community and making Connections with other researchers? 65 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:35,000 Let's hear from Victoria, Warren. Emily and Catherine about their experience of networking and building Connections and building a community. 66 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:44,000 I came from London and I'm sure there'll be PhDs coming from all over the country or internationally even. 67 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:58,000 But a PhD can be a really isolating. And I know in the first few months I was here, I felt horrible genuinely because I just had no network. 68 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:05,000 I didn't really know anybody. I didn't know other PhDs. And I was feeling like, oh, what have I done? 69 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:12,000 Like, I've just come to a completely different city and I don't know anybody and say it was very 70 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:18,000 you can imagine my joy when I discovered kind of you know things like the Postgrads Society, 71 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:24,000 which was great in just having that kind of social aspect. 72 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,000 And yeah. And seeking that out. And I, I mean, if there's one thing I would have done, 73 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:38,000 would have I wish I sought so kind of those kind of social societies and like those social events that the college have hosted, 74 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,000 I wish I sort that out earlier than I did. 75 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:48,000 It would have saved me a lot of. Sadness in the beginning and loneliness, I guess. 76 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:55,000 But yet, like, really kind of seek out, seek out having other PhDs around you. 77 00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:04,000 And I found that very helpful throughout. Even now, as I was saying, and I'm finishing, I still find that network so helpful. 78 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:08,000 Just for your well-being and just to know that we're all in the same boat. 79 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:13,000 We're all trying to kind of navigate these PhDs and just. 80 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:23,000 Yeah, having that kind of network is. Yeah, I found it so helpful and very beneficial to my well-being. 81 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:29,000 Not enough conversations happen. Just general conversations about how well people are doing or. 82 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,000 Oh, how you work. Or research is getting on and doing. 83 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:40,000 A PhD can be a very, very lonely, solitary place and very difficult for quite a lot of us. 84 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:47,000 I would say go out there, start to speak to other people, make some friends, get involved in things like I do and the doctoral college, 85 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:54,000 get involved in things with Student Guild as a PGR, but do something. 86 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,000 Don't just sit in your office or sit at home and do nothing and just work. 87 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:08,000 You need to. Go find something fun and speak to human beings and also make time for yourself and for connecting other PGR students. 88 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:15,000 That is so important. And since I started, I have been lucky enough to be part of a group of PGR students, too. 89 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:22,000 And we meet regularly sort of weekly. And although it can be tricky fitting it around all the other stuff 90 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:28,000 It's just been a lifeline and a really great place to share ideas and share worries 91 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:33,000 and realise that you're not the only one who is experiencing whatever it is you're experiencing. 92 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:39,000 It's such a strange things going throuhg a PhD. Actually amazing at times. 93 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:45,000 And it can be very difficult at times. But when you got people to share it, that really makes a difference. 94 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,000 There's also something really important that came out when I was talking to 95 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:53,000 our PGRs about work life balance and setting boundaries and asking for help. 96 00:10:53,000 --> 00:11:03,000 So here's Catherine Victoria Warren. I'm one of our Penryn PGRs, Jamie Cranston talking about those very things. 97 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:13,000 The thing with doing a PhD because it's. It is, by its essence, quite not nebulous necessarily, 98 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:22,000 but kind of you have to put your own boundaries in and so that might be kind of like, OK, well, I just work. 99 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,000 I work nine to five. I don't work in the evenings. I don't. 100 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:31,000 What work we can it had to be what works for you. Some people might have natural boundaries in their life. 101 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:36,000 They've got children that need like feeding 102 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:43,000 I've always found my kids quite useful that way, like calls you out of your work and you have to stop. 103 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:50,000 So the diary or journals part of that setting boundaries for yourself. 104 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:56,000 And of course, you know, I've always said about the PhD, it's not a sprint it's a marathon. 105 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:02,000 So take some time. There's one thing I would have definitely told myself. 106 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:07,000 Even I think, too, recently is take some time for yourself. 107 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:11,000 Your PhDis not your life. And you have friends. 108 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:18,000 You have family. And you had yourself to take care of as well and always just keep it in mind. 109 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:24,000 Yes doing a PhD is Great. Yes, it's very satisfying once you've completed it. 110 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:31,000 But don't let it take over your life. Everything in moderation. 111 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:39,000 Don't ever compare yourself to another PhD students work because their work is totally different to what we're doing. 112 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,000 So I did that quite a lot. And I think everybody does, too. 113 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,000 I think even when I'm saying this and whoever's listening to this, you probably will do it. 114 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:51,000 But don't ever compare yourself. Because it does mean it can put you down. 115 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,000 But you need to bear in mind that it is completely different. They are different timescales. 116 00:12:55,000 --> 00:13:00,000 Everything they do is completely unique to their own work as well. 117 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:04,000 You will see. So they'll probably looking at your work and also thinking the same. 118 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:09,000 So try not to compare, I guess, to the other big one is some. 119 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:19,000 And don't be afraid to ask for help. I think that's the biggest development that I've had over my PhD at the start. 120 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,000 It's quite easy to get sucked into the feeling of, oh, I must know everything. 121 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:29,000 And often it's off the this imposter syndrome. And you feel the need to to. 122 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:35,000 You may find things out yourself, and obviously part of the PhD is developing those independent skills, 123 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:39,000 but you're not expected to know absolutely everything. 124 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:45,000 And so long as you're learning, when you ask somebody for help, obviously getting somebody to do it for you, 125 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:49,000 sort of defeats the whole purpose of the activity that. 126 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:57,000 One of the best ways to learn stuff and save yourself a lot of time and pain and frustration, it's to ask for help. 127 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:07,000 And that goes from coding, writing and even like simple things like how to organise your reading. 128 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:14,000 There's lots of people in your departments who have gone through that experience themselves and will usually have some good advice. 129 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:20,000 And it's always good to get different people's advice because sometimes one person's approach isn't a good match for you. 130 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,000 So you might need to try a few different things. 131 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:31,000 I hope some of that has given you an insight into other people's experiences of starting the research degree, the things that they find difficult. 132 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:38,000 And also, if you're finding it intimidating and anxiety producing nerve racking, you're not on your own. 133 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,000 That's a completely normal experience. And as Jamie said, we're here to help. 134 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:48,000 And please do reach out if you need us. But also enjoy the final thing is just enjoy it. 135 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:54,000 Enjoy it. And the time goes by so quickly, you don't even realise it. 136 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:59,000 But yet they are going to be some moments. It's not easy, right. 137 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:04,000 I will not sugarcoat this. It is. It is not is. 138 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:15,000 They are. There will be moments where you will want to just cry. But at the end of today, you know, if you have a goal, you will work towards that. 139 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:22,000 And and just make sure you have a great support network of friends and family and supervisors, 140 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:27,000 because that will honestly, that's what got me through as well. That's what helped me. 141 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:33,000 Those kind of moments where I just was like, what am I doing? I didn't think this work is working. 142 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:40,000 And but yeah, I just having all of that kind of adds to that, to the experience of it all. 143 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:46,000 And yeah, hopefully at the end of it you be able to say you've completed it. 144 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:51,000 And yeah. And you're very proud of the work that you've produced. Thank you so much. 145 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:56,000 Emily. Catherine. Edward. Victoria Warren and Jamie for 146 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:02,000 their insights and their contributions to this week's episode. And that's it for this episode. 147 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,000 don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me. 148 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:32,451 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

In this episode I talk to Jayne Hardy, author and founder of The Blurt Foundation, about mental health and wellbeing in academia. You can access the show notes and podcast transcript here.  

In this episode I talk to some of our PGRs about their experiences of online training and development at the University of Exeter, including their advice to academics and Researcher Developers for delivering high quality, online training and development. You can access the show notes here.   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Hello and welcome, R, D And The Inbetweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,000 and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:38,000 Hello and welcome back to R, D and the In Betweens. Hope you were all well during my hiatus. 4 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:47,000 And I'm back with a really fascinating discussion this episode over the past few months during the COVID nineteen pandemic, 5 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,000 we've all had to learn a new range of skills. 6 00:00:50,000 --> 00:01:00,000 For academics and for teachers, this is involved learning not only new technologies, but new pedagogies and for students, new ways of learning. 7 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,000 At the University of Exeter, 8 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:09,000 we've actually had a webinar programme that mirrors our face to face workshop training and development programme for about eight years. 9 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:16,000 So our students are well versed in learning and undertaking training and development online. 10 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:21,000 And a lot of the discussions we're having now on a sort of local and national level 11 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,000 were talking about the experience of academics and moving into the online environment. 12 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,000 And I don't think there's been enough focus on the student experience and what 13 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:34,000 it's like to learn and what makes good online teaching and specifically for me, 14 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:43,000 good online training and development. So I asked a few of our PGRs to join me to have a discussion about online training and development. 15 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:48,000 What works for them and what it means for them to have a good rounded learning experience. 16 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,000 Online. Is everyone happy to introduce yourself so. 17 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,000 Can we start with Edward? Yeah. Hello. My name is Edward. 18 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:01,000 I am just about still a postgraduate research student at the University of Exeter. 19 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:09,000 I am in the awkward post submission PhD stage and I've been involved in quite a lot of online stuff. 20 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:17,000 Kelly's been organising over the last few months from writing retreats to research development sessions. 21 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,000 Great, Pauline. Hi, my name is Pauline McGonagle. 22 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:27,000 I am doing a collaborative PhD with the British Library and Exeter and I'm 23 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:34,000 at the end part of the PhD in that I'm in year five or six. 24 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:39,000 And with a bit of extension now, it'll go on a little bit further. 25 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:47,000 My work is generally archival, etc. And so I'm in a right writing phase at the moment, not being able to access that. 26 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:58,000 But in terms of webinars and online activity with everything its actually been crucial for me because I live in Dover when I do go to the campus. 27 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:05,000 Rarely is for periods of two, three weeks to do something specific or for meetings. 28 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:18,000 So I've been using online and online careers webinar training and the shut up and write sessions which are really, really important to me as well. 29 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,000 Brilliant. Thank you, Jennifer. Hi, I'm Jennifer. 30 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:27,000 I'm a second year PhD student in Biosciences 31 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:38,000 I am working with a fish farm in Anglesey to try and improve the production and welfare standards for fish being farmed. 32 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,000 I have taken part in a couple of things with Kelly from before, 33 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:48,000 and I've also facilitated a couple of sessions with the Research Development Programme, 34 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:58,000 including designing research posters and presentation skills for researchers, which I facilitated both in person and as a webinar. 35 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:03,000 Brilliant. Thank you, Megan. Hi, I'm Megan Maunder 36 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:08,000 I'm about to go into my third year of the PhD in the mathematics department. 37 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:18,000 I am in space for the department and I primarily look at coronal mass ejection, which a large balls of plasma that come off the sun. 38 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:26,000 Broadly, I've been I've done quite a lot of the online research development courses, but also I do a lot of outreach and public engagement. 39 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:35,000 So I've been translating a lot of my face to face sessions to online, which has been a learning curve, 40 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:44,000 quite a bit about how to try and keep people engaged in the different mediums that also work for me in meeting sessions. 41 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,000 Great. And Philippa. Hi, I'm Philippa. 42 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:53,000 I am doing a PhD in the theology and Religion Department. 43 00:04:53,000 --> 00:05:03,000 My research looks at plural marriage within fundamentalist Mormon communities, primarily based in the United States. 44 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:11,000 My experience with with with online webinars and teaching and so on extends back several years. 45 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:20,000 So before this pandemic, looking at I've taught classes both online and in person and in a hybrid fashion. 46 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:25,000 And I've also taken part as a student in a number of online classes as well. 47 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:30,000 Actually, one one of my master's classes was was entirely online. 48 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:35,000 So a bit of experience from both sides of the coin, so to speak. Fantastic. 49 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,000 So I'm going to start with a kind of really basic one, 50 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:49,000 which is what for you as a student are the benefits of having had training and development opportunities available online? 51 00:05:49,000 --> 00:06:01,000 I think for me, as someone who is actually lucky enough in some respects to be in Exeter most of the time and have access to in-person events. 52 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,000 The question is one of flexibility. 53 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:11,000 If you're not able to make it to campus for a given day, you don't feel excluded from the training and opportunities that are going on. 54 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:15,000 And that's obviously less important to me than it might be for somebody who is based elsewhere. 55 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:25,000 But it's something that I don't think we should underestimate. In my experience, the courses that I've done online were released in blocks. 56 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:30,000 So it allowed me to again, as Edward was just saying, this element of flexibility. 57 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,000 It allowed me to say over the course of a long weekend, for example, 58 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:40,000 and bash out a few of the the week's worth of material and work through it and then 59 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:45,000 put it to one side while I focussed on research and then reapproach it again. 60 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:54,000 So the element of flexibility, particularly when the material is present it in in chunks, is very helpful. 61 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:59,000 I think for me, I, I quite often struggle with passive listening. 62 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:06,000 So particularly it comes to like seminars or when someone is giving you information, you don't have to necessarily act it straight away. 63 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:12,000 Being online kind of enables me to do other things that let me really focus on what I'm listening to, 64 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:16,000 which I know that some people will find that abhorrent, really. 65 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:23,000 I've noticed a particular online seminars and yet things where you're listening passively doing the dishes 66 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:28,000 or doing a bit of knitting or something actually allows me to take in that information much more easily. 67 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:33,000 And that's not something that would be necessarily you'd be able to do face to face. 68 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,000 People find that quite rude if you sit there and do something else. So listening to them. 69 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:49,000 On top of what everyone else already said, I think, frankly, the fact that a lot of the webinars are recorded online makes that a lot more inclusive. 70 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:59,000 And like what's been said before. If you missed something, you're able to go back and take an again, which I think is a real benefit, 71 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:08,000 where obviously you can't do that in real life unless you have a Dictaphone or you have permission to record the lecture in another way. 72 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:17,000 Yeah, you can revisit it in a completely different way. Just to add to that, that also extends within the within the seminar as well. 73 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:24,000 So a lot of conversation about going online seems to have been about how can we preserve the benefits 74 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:29,000 of Face-To-Face teaching in an online environment where we don't have people in the same room. 75 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:36,000 You can look at it the other way as well. I think it's something that that I I think that we should give up and forgot to be doing 76 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:41,000 in terms of what can online let you do that you're not able to do in face to face. 77 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:48,000 An example of this, it's come from online teaching more than anything for me is that having a PowerPoint document, 78 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:55,000 which you edit live while screen sharing is a heck of a lot faster than working on a whiteboard and screen. 79 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,000 Sharing in general can be really useful for all kinds of teaching purposes if you want 80 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:06,000 to demonstrate something that will go for any research development context as well. 81 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:12,000 So it's it's also about what online teaching can offer the offline can't 82 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:18,000 necessarily thinking in terms of how to preserve what we already have in offline. 83 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:25,000 If that makes sense, that picks up on. One of the really key things for me is that, you know, like Edward said, 84 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:31,000 there is this concern about what we're going to lose from face to face teaching. 85 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:38,000 And certainly one of those main concerns seems to be about peer to peer interaction and community building. 86 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:49,000 So I wondered if you could talk a little bit about your experience of that in the online training you've attended. 87 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,000 Have you felt this sense of loss of being able to interact with your peers? 88 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:57,000 Have you felt that you haven't had the opportunity to build a community? 89 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:04,000 I've actually found that especially sort of in the time of COVID when webinars have become more common. 90 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,000 I've actually found that in the time since lockdown started, 91 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:18,000 I've made more links with people at the University of Exeter than I had in the months between joining the university in September until March. 92 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:24,000 So so actually, I found that the online forum, especially in smaller groups, 93 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:32,000 has actually led to better friendships, professional relationships with other students. 94 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:37,000 I think it does depend and there is a balance and sometimes things do have to give. 95 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:42,000 I found that a lot of the stuff webinars i;ve attended where 96 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,000 You have the face to face interaction. It just doesn't work as well. 97 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,000 Like people switching from a mainscreen to breakout rooms 98 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:54,000 I've found works with some panel events, for example, but I haven't found it as worthwhile l in some traainging events. 99 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,000 I've attended them within sort of my own research, 100 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:06,000 but we have our own little virtual socialising media and that's worked quite well and just giving everyone a time to touch base. 101 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:14,000 And I feel a bit more connected and less isolated. But I think it's very situational dependent, like it doesn't work in all mediums. 102 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:24,000 And it does depend on how the facilitator. I guess it takes that how they choose to go forward with it, to make it inclusive as well. 103 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:34,000 I am going to build on what Megan said. I completely agree that in some situations, breakout rooms work well and sometimes they don't. 104 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:42,000 But what I find really helpful and really inclusive is when the host remembers to say, I'm going to into break room. 105 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:49,000 If you don't want to go, if you don't want to take part in that part of the webinar, you do not have to. 106 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,000 And I think that that's really, really helpful. 107 00:11:52,000 --> 00:12:01,000 I attended a conference online recently that was organised by the South Asia Centre at Exeter, which was international. 108 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:10,000 It went to universities in Pakistan and India, etc., gave a paper over screen online, which I'd never done before. 109 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:17,000 I know for a fact that that would not have been even offered if we hadn't been in the situation we're in now. 110 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,000 Yeah. And I think that's been you know, we've had that feedback as well. Of course, 111 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:27,000 we moved our three minute thesis competition online and that enabled distance students 112 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:31,000 to engage where they wouldn't have been able to before if we were running it on campus. 113 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:37,000 And so, actually, you know, it it has broadened and broaden the net. 114 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,000 And, of course, you know, we know the conference attendance is expensive. 115 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:45,000 We know that PGRs don't get a huge amount of money, if any at all, to attend them. 116 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:52,000 And particularly for travel and accommodation and so running these things online. 117 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,000 It does mean they can be more open and more accessible. 118 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:03,000 I mean, we shouldn't just assume that the online is automatically accessible and inclusive. 119 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:08,000 There are some issues that we might be had to pick up on those. We're gonna take a sidestep for a minute. 120 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:17,000 And I want to know who did both sides of this. But first of all, I want to know what in your experience as a student, 121 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:25,000 having been to lots of different online and training and conferences and groups and all sorts of things. 122 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:30,000 What's been really good practise for you from the take from the teacher, the person delivering what? 123 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,000 What kind of behaviours or approaches to be seen where you've gone? 124 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:38,000 Yes, it's actually really brilliant for me. I think the big one is having a clear agenda. 125 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:48,000 Like, I like to know what's going on, a way where my active participation is required and where it's a bit more passive. 126 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:55,000 The other thing I think is important. I've actually yet to see is people providing the slides in a PDF format beforehand. 127 00:13:55,000 --> 00:14:01,000 So let's screen readers don't work with just like a standard zoom screen. 128 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:07,000 And that could be difficult for a lot of people. But I think also for me, I sometimes have problems like following along in person. 129 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,000 I know we've discussed the kind of. 130 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:15,000 Use the time that when you want to look things up, but that's not always practical or possible for something you do so want to engage in, 131 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:22,000 but you're not quite able to fully able and you don't fully able to do it in that day. 132 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:27,000 So I think definitely good practise is the agenda, but also, you know, providing resources beforehand, 133 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:33,000 that means people can follow along at their pace rather than just assume that everyone's got a great Internet connection, 134 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:40,000 can move along as quickly as perhaps the person trained to. If they try to condense something into quite short space of time, 135 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:48,000 I think one of the main things that I've seen that I think could benefit a lot of online sessions are having House rules at the start. 136 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:59,000 So just in the first five minutes, ten minutes, either verbally saying or having up on the screen that reminding people that you're an adult, 137 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:04,000 you're your to go to the bathroom when you want to. You don't have to ask permission. You don't have to have your camera on. 138 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:10,000 You don't have to speak if you don't want to. And just making it very clear the expectations from the session. 139 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:17,000 So if it is an engaging session, then please try and engage and speak up where you feel comfortable. 140 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:24,000 But it's not necessary. Those are the main things I've really, really appreciated, 141 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:32,000 as well as having scheduled breaks and just checking in on people and saying, you know, I've covered the first section. 142 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:38,000 I was going to go into the second section before a break. But if people want a break night, that's fine. 143 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:46,000 So constantly adapting your time management, because I've taken a couple of the facilitators, a couple of webinars, 144 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:55,000 and I don't realise how quickly I talk or how difficult it is when you don't have people in front of you. 145 00:15:55,000 --> 00:16:03,000 I kind of sort of fly fine. It's been twenty five minutes and you've gone through all your material and you're supposed to be talking for an hour. 146 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:12,000 But just saying, you know, we can now have fifteen minutes to just chat or you can log off or just adapting as you go and constantly keeping 147 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:19,000 the group up to date with where you are as a presenter and making sure that someone can jump in and say, 148 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:26,000 you know, please slow down or yeah, we've gone over this or anything like that. 149 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:35,000 Yeah, I think that adaptability and being responsive is it's even more important than it is in a Face-To-Face environment. 150 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:42,000 One of the best training that I attended very recently was an online. 151 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:49,000 a writing day, actually. And it was outside Exeter, as it turned out, it was another consortium that includes me whenever they do things. 152 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:55,000 But one of the best things they did was send preparation materials out in advance. 153 00:16:55,000 --> 00:17:02,000 And even though it was an online retreat for writing, it gave us some ideas about prepare by doing the following. 154 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,000 The timings will be like this. Let us know if there is. 155 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:10,000 And it just really made me think about how to make the most out of the day in advance. 156 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:16,000 And I think it paid off more or seemed to be more so more productive because 157 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,000 there was a lot of thought had gone in to helping you to prepare and so on. 158 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:27,000 So I think all of the things that you've said, including the the rules and host rules so that everyone feels they know what you know, 159 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:33,000 what's expected, etc., is very beneficial because it's the sort of thing you would do in real life. 160 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:38,000 You know, when you go into a room, you have whether it's pointed at the fire exits or whatever it might be, 161 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:43,000 you're doing something that's practical and taking note of the environment, just sitting. 162 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:50,000 And, of course, you sitting behind a mike and you don't know anybody's personal circumstances or if they've got a, 163 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:58,000 you know, a small child in the background or whatever it might be. But the point is that a little bit of prep in advance makes people more. 164 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:04,000 I think what it actually makes them more proactive and engaged when they take part as well. 165 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,000 And so a lot of it's interesting that a lot of the things that you've raised so 166 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:12,000 far about good practise have actually been more kind of like organisational, 167 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:17,000 I guess, about how you set out the virtual space rather than kind of content delivery. 168 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:28,000 So I wanted to know about kind of how how good online teachers are making content, engaging for you and making interesting. 169 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:38,000 I think one of the main things for me is when a session has been scheduled for two hours and it has got like 170 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:46,000 one and a half hour mark and that person's done and they don't try and just waffle on the next half an hour. 171 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:52,000 I think that that is really important. And I'm not saying this doesn't happen a lot in person. 172 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,000 I do think that when you've been scheduled for a set amount of time, 173 00:18:54,000 --> 00:19:01,000 there is a certain amount of pressure to just keep talking and keep delivering, which isn't going to engage anyone. 174 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:05,000 And it's probably going to make people switch off more than anything else. 175 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,000 So I think that that's really important to keep in mind, 176 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:17,000 that whether you're a professor and you've been teaching for years and years or whether you're going to be facilitating a webinar to 177 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:26,000 just keep in mind that if you feel like you're waffling and it's likely that someone people are not engaged or not concentrating, 178 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,000 and it's way better to get your point across concisely, 179 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:38,000 but not rush through and just make sure that people are constantly are trying to try to make 180 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:45,000 sure that people can be engaged throughout online teaching recognises the differences, 181 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:50,000 I think, between it and traditional Face-To-Face teaching. 182 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:56,000 So a lot of a lot of the really good zoom sessions I've been to, for example, 183 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:04,000 have been hosted by people who have taken the time to actually investigate how the software works and what you can do with it. 184 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,000 I mean, let's face it, 185 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:12,000 we've all kind of very excited at the idea of using the thumbs up to react button or the raise your hand button or things like that. 186 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:25,000 Sounds silly, but I mean, it's true. But that and things like screen sharing when used, well, let you do things you can't do with Face-To-Face. 187 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:31,000 And that can help with both clarity for content and also think engagement as well, 188 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:41,000 so that some of the best examples that I've seen have been where people have used quite an interactive format and also utilised universal design. 189 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:50,000 So someone mentioned earlier about making sure that PowerPoint slides are distributed in advance to enable people to access screen readers and so on. 190 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:59,000 But also, I think, making things interactive, not just having somebody talk to the group and then wait for questions at the end, 191 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:04,000 pausing at different intervals and asking for questions, utilising the chat function. 192 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:09,000 So questions can go into the chat function. And having either the presentation. 193 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:16,000 Again, it depends on the size of the group. But it's either either the presenter or designated person who's monitoring the chat. 194 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:23,000 You can sort of notify the presenter that a relevant question is in the chat, which should probably be addressed at that point. 195 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,000 And then the presenter can say. What's your question? 196 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:32,000 And then it can then form part of a conversation. 197 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:43,000 But it's also the presenter needs to recognise at what stage too many people in the group means that certain things won't work efficiently. 198 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,000 So there is an element where the person who's presenting needs to have a little 199 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:54,000 bit of knowledge about what groups work best in what formats and and how intimate. 200 00:21:54,000 --> 00:22:00,000 You can't have an interactive session with two hundred people because everyone is just constantly going to talk over one another. 201 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,000 But in a group of six or seven, that might be more appropriate. 202 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:12,000 Yeah, I just kind of want to build on what Ed said about making sure you understand the functionality of your software, 203 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,000 but also then talking to your participants about their functionality. 204 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:24,000 So this is sort of a personal experience, but some friends and I did a pub quiz, as did everyone, during the lockdown. 205 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:32,000 We set up around based on a popular TV game show where you had to guess where certain things were placed. 206 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:39,000 And I assumed it would work fine for everyone. Turns out it was only fine for people using Zoom on a laptop if they were trying to use it on a tablet. 207 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:44,000 Which did the touchscreen wouldn't allow them to press the button properly. 208 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:51,000 So I think that getting to know your software but also getting to know how that translates to different devices than your participants. 209 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:57,000 If this is something you can do in advance, it's definitely good practise to make sure that you're inclusive and accessible and just 210 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:02,000 beforehand asking for accessibility needs like do you need me to send the resources in advance? 211 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:09,000 You can have a screen reader making sure the agenda's clear, making sure you set up breaks with your content. 212 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,000 clearly accessible for people to be able to digest that in their own time. 213 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:21,000 Yeah, that's certainly something that we've encountered over the years in delivering I mean, previously through Skype for business is that, 214 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:31,000 you know, some very simple things, like depending on whether somebody is on a Mac or a Windows computer and the interface looks different. 215 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:39,000 And so, you know, being able to give somebody guidance and understand how different functionality works within a different operating system, you know, 216 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,000 before like you say, Mac, 217 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:49,000 and before you get into access on different devices and different versions of the software on different devices have different functionality. 218 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:56,000 And if you're using a lot of that kind of. Interactive functionality. 219 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:05,000 Then you need to be aware of how that may or may not work on all devices and therefore be able to offer alternative versions. 220 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,000 Let's talk a little bit about interactive functionality. 221 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:15,000 So thinking about all of the different systems that over the course of the past few months we've all become familiar with, 222 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:22,000 everything's got variations on going to similar functionality, some of which is is a bit more flashy than others. 223 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:30,000 What's your kind of your feeling about some of the interactive tools built into these systems? 224 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:37,000 So we've had the chat box mentioned, we've had breakout rooms mentioned, but you can also have polls and white boards. 225 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:46,000 And how how do you feel about these tools? And how kind of engaging do you find them? 226 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:51,000 Right. If everyone knows how they work. And it is the host's responsibility to explain. 227 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,000 I've seen I'm guilty of this myself, 228 00:24:53,000 --> 00:25:01,000 actually having started a poll and then not really explained it and then not had any engagement with because people didn't know it was there. 229 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:08,000 So I think that they will really useful and they replace a lot of the things that universities have spent a lot of money on in recent years. 230 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:16,000 And, you know, in. In-person voting handsets, for example, in face to face teaching. 231 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:22,000 But it's the responsibility of the presenter to deliver that session, to explain quite clearly, 232 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:27,000 clearly this new technology or something, we're not familiar with how it works. 233 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,000 Yeah, I think broadly they can be used well. But as long as they're used 234 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,000 Meaningfully people aren't just using them because they can. 235 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:44,000 And I think even in face to face teaching, you see a lot of people using it so that they can take off their sort of digital box. 236 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,000 I think broadly they work well if they are used to add to meaningful discussion. 237 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:53,000 But sometimes I feel in some of the courses I've been in, it's it's been a bit pointless. 238 00:25:53,000 --> 00:26:00,000 I don't really feel like it's achieved anything or contributed to the session. Like I find sometimes the incessant polling a bit much. 239 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:06,000 As we move to online need to consider are we doing this for the sake of doing it that worked 240 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:11,000 Face to face or are we doing this? It's gonna give us something meaningful. Yeah. 241 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:18,000 And that's a really important issue for me as somebody who's. 242 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:23,000 Kind of been engaging with them, researching blended learning for some time, is it? 243 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:34,000 It's actually about what the tools can actually add. To the learning into the session and actually, you know, over the. 244 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,000 I mean, this is the sort of fifth year that I've been doing online teaching. 245 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:47,000 It's been growing every year. And actually the tool that fundamentally, I think has had the most impact in online teaching is the chat box. 246 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:54,000 It's possibly the simplest tool in there. But like, I can't remember, I think it was Philippa was it Philippa that was saying, you know, 247 00:26:54,000 --> 00:27:02,000 you can continue conversation and engagement and all those sorts of things throughout the session. 248 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:09,000 And that's where the peer learning can happen. So we've talked about the good. 249 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,000 It's probably about time we talked about the bad. 250 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:20,000 So what in your experience of online training, what have you seen people do that hasn't been that great or hasn't been that, shall we say? 251 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:33,000 Isn't that engaging for you? So I did a I guess it was a full day's session with an external company and I don't want to name and shame, but broadly, 252 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:40,000 they expected you to be plugged in if your video on audio on the whole day, which was just exhausting for me. 253 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,000 And I think also, you know, 254 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:50,000 we it's not a natural thing to do when you go and do these things face to face your aren;t staring at someone's face all day and they scheduled in breaks. 255 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,000 Just great. And I was like, oh, you know, go and take five minutes and go and get a cup of tea. 256 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:59,000 That's exactly what I did. And I came back that and because at that point. 257 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:05,000 So I went to get a cup of tea because at that point when I came back, it was just listening and it was passive. 258 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:09,000 I went to drink my cup of tea and he literally stopped it. Oh, I hope you're enjoying that tea Megan 259 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,000 And I was put out because I know no one. I don't really see why. 260 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,000 I mean, I need my camera on right now. But number two, I'm literally just doing what you said. 261 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,000 You know, I went to get my cup of tea and I think particularly during lockdown as well. 262 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,000 Not something I've experienced that other students who've done some external 263 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,000 training said that at one point they were told to go outside and have a walk, 264 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:34,000 which I thought was ridiculous. And also so. 265 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:40,000 It was ridiculous, but also it wasn't very inclusive because they didn't know who at that point was self isolating, who was shielding. 266 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:45,000 So how could they talk about their experiences of a walk if they couldn't go outside? 267 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:52,000 I think broadly, for me, the bad practise I've seen is think not thinking about people's inclusive situations. 268 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:57,000 You know, as we've already mentioned, people might have children, might have pets, people away from home. 269 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:02,000 People have lives. So I think the requirement to be switched on for a whole day is too much. 270 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:08,000 But also just having respect, the people are not going to be just concentrating on you for the whole period. 271 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,000 I was going about that, as we discussed in the past. Kelly Zoom fatigue is a thing. 272 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:21,000 And some of the. Less successful events I've been to over zoom are the ones that don't acknowledge that. 273 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:28,000 To come back to what was what was just said. The ones that require video to be on ones which which is quite easy to do. 274 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:37,000 This is a facilitator, I think, to. Expects or to hope for the same. 275 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:45,000 Indicators of engagement that you might get in a face to face meeting, for example. 276 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:53,000 Expectant looks up at the camera in front of in front of all the audience is not something you can realistically ever get in a an online environment. 277 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:54,000 Face to face. 278 00:29:54,000 --> 00:30:02,000 It's you know, if you've got an audience following you, that can be really quite exciting as it is in the delivery of this kind of content. 279 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:10,000 So if you go into an online session expecting exactly the same behaviours from an audience who could be in a number of different places, 280 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,000 have any number of different things in the room with them, 281 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:23,000 haven't necessarily definitely haven't come to that place where you all fall out of their house slash office slash. 282 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:31,000 I don't know private island. They will then you're you're you're setting yourself up effectively to mismanage, essentially. 283 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,000 I'm basically going to echo what has already been said. 284 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:43,000 But two things that are real negatives for me are when it seems to be a session session's sake, 285 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:50,000 which is something that I've I've signed up to a series of webinars online. 286 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:58,000 And the last one or one of the middle ones is just them of talking at you. 287 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:09,000 And it felt very pointlee. That's something that I phrase that I saw on Twitter, which I would really like to echo, is we aren't remote working from home. 288 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,000 We are living at work. We are living at the gym. 289 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:22,000 And for so many people, you are literally living in one single room and it could be at the top of a 10 storey block. 290 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,000 It could be that you have children or pets or whatever else. 291 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:32,000 And so not being inclusive, it is so easy nowadays to say or take things at your own pace. 292 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:39,000 The pace of life right now is slowed down massively, at least for me, because I've not been able to come to the lab. 293 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:46,000 So it's very much been about what can I do for myself and other people when I'm interacting with them online? 294 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,000 What can I do to make sure that they're engaged and happy? 295 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:59,000 Because otherwise there's just no point to trying to force people to take part in polls or, you know, going on walks or one of them. 296 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,000 I had to build a really a tower as tall as I could. 297 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:11,000 Out of the things in my room. And I was thinking, I've been sitting, staring at someone since nine o'clock this morning it is now have past three. 298 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:16,000 This could have ended by now. You've given me the worthwhile information, which I appreciate. 299 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:23,000 But these like team building things when you if you want to take part in them, that's great. 300 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,000 But forcing people to take part is something that does. 301 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:34,000 It makes me not want to take part in any webinar type things again. 302 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:42,000 Yeah, I think that's that's really powerful. And like, I think I think it was you that said earlier, Jennifer, like, you know. 303 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:48,000 If you don't, it's what you do face to face, if it's come to an end and it's reach a natural end. 304 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:53,000 Do not drag it out with the absolute worst thing. 305 00:32:53,000 --> 00:33:01,000 But you can do nothing, particularly in an online environment, because that fatigue of staring at the screen is very real. 306 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:10,000 So it's kind of just going off the back of that. So I've seen it where materials have been distributed in advance of a session. 307 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:16,000 And I'm not talking about a week in advance. I'm talking about just a few hours before the session. 308 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:24,000 And those materials being completely inaccurate. And they're not the same version of the PowerPoint, for example, that are shown on the screen. 309 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:31,000 And it's quite clear that whoever is presenting the session and I'm actually the example I'm thinking of is an external. 310 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,000 But they they they distributed a PowerPoint presentation, 311 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:42,000 which at either been adapted from something else or they'd in the in the hours between distributing it and actually presenting, 312 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,000 they'd made a lot of changes to the presentation. 313 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:54,000 And it just it it was frustrating as as a participant to have this information that wasn't relevant because I'm dyslexic and dyspraxic 314 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,000 So I can't really deal very well with things that are just on the screen. 315 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:04,000 So I like to have my materials in advance, print them out, and then I can make notes as the presentation is happening. 316 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,000 Well, if those PowerPoint slides have been changed around in order, well, 317 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:13,000 some of them have been added or taken away or the the verbiage has been changed. 318 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,000 It makes it incredibly difficult for me to stay engaged. 319 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:25,000 So I think it's very important that that people who are leading sessions have very relevant information and stuff that they're going to cover. 320 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:32,000 Don't just send information for the sake of sending things. Don't send six journal articles for people to read. 321 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:39,000 If realistically, people aren't going to be able to read that many articles and there's only room for discussion discussing one of them, 322 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,000 because we've all been there where we've been to an in-person seminar where the 323 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,000 material you're given to discuss in that seminar is much more than can be discussed. 324 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:53,000 So who aren't just leaves us feeling a little bit annoyed that they've read all of this extra 325 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,000 stuff when they that there are more important things they could have done with that time. 326 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:06,000 So I think it's about making sure that the information that's distributed as relevant is up to date and is correct as it goes life. 327 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:16,000 And also that any reading and prep that participants need to do in advance is kept to a minimum and a manageable amount. 328 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:23,000 Are there any other things that you've seen or heard people do when you've gone? 329 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:36,000 Actually, that's really off-putting for me. As a participant, it's one of the one of the technical gremlins that we will get, I think. 330 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:41,000 But when feedback is there and not acknowledged by the by the host, by feedback, 331 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,000 I mean, the kind of thing, thing, thing, thing, thing that happens opens up. 332 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:55,000 So when someone is in any way bounces around different microphones and gets picked up and distorted when that's dealt with quickly and efficiently. 333 00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:00,000 That's why asking other people to mute themselves or just checking it out one by one. 334 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,000 That's great. 335 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:09,000 When it doesn't is one of the most infuriating things I think we've ever come across in zoom meetings I hope people will agree with me on that. 336 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:14,000 The feedback  can be the bane of the presenters life sometimes. So another thing which is, 337 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:22,000 is kind of it's a bit of an elephant in the room in that it's all of this sort of presupposes that people have good access to it, 338 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:31,000 to access to a good Internet connexion. And some of the issues with feedback and poor quality can sometimes be due to the fact that someone is using 339 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:37,000 a poor Internet connection or there might be several people trying to work from home at the same time. 340 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:47,000 And I actually had a session that I was part of a few weeks ago when the person he was presenting kept having to come, 341 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:51,000 come off the call and reconnect because their Internet was so strained. 342 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,000 And so I think not. Not so putting the onus on the people who are presenting. 343 00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:00,000 But I think there's also a duty from, you know, thinking about this is a bigger picture from this. 344 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:09,000 You know, we're all going through this global pandemic. And institutions need to be cognisant of what the means of their students in that, you know, 345 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:16,000 some students might not be able to afford the tools they need in order to do what we're doing right now. 346 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:22,000 You know, some some students may not have access to a decent computer. They might not have access to a decent Internet connection. 347 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:26,000 And it's about institutions providing that for them as. 348 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:33,000 As someone who has got learning differences, I get disabled students allowance. 349 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:38,000 And once upon a time, and because I've been a perpetual student once upon a time, 350 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:45,000 disabled students allowance used to pay for your Internet if you had certain disabilities. 351 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:51,000 But that doesn't happen anymore because it's expected that everybody has access to good Internet and not everybody can afford that. 352 00:37:51,000 --> 00:38:00,000 Some students are living hand-to-mouth and will have previously been relying on going into the university every day and using university resources, 353 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:10,000 including good Internet connections. So suddenly being thrown into this sort of lockdown scenario, people, 354 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:16,000 if I've heard of people tethering their phones to their computers to use their phone data, 355 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,000 then running out of that, not having access, you know, 356 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:27,000 you can't just go down to Starbucks or or insert coffee shop of your choice in order to access Internet. 357 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,000 And so it can be a real strain for a lot of people. 358 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:37,000 And I think that needs to be acknowledged at sort of a DSA sort of government level, but also institutional levels as well. 359 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:43,000 And I think you're actually doing a pretty good job at making sure that they are providing for students who have those needs. 360 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:48,000 But I'm not sure that every institution is doing such a great job. 361 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:57,000 Yeah, and I I think that that assumption of having a computer and having Internet access and is. 362 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:04,000 Is really prevalent. And we've had those conversations with academics trying to teach undergraduates of kind of like. 363 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:10,000 But we actually can't assume a certain mode or method of access. 364 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:15,000 Even though we think of these things as being ubiquitous, we think that everybody's got them. 365 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:21,000 But I mean, particularly one of the things that I know that we've had to deal with as researcher 366 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:26,000 development over the years is that we've got students all over the world. 367 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:30,000 So we've had to deal with time differences and we've had to deal with. 368 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:37,000 You know, I remember somebody who was really struggled with the PowerPoint slides. 369 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,000 They just wouldn't load for them. 370 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:45,000 And it's because they were in a remote area of Thailand and they just did not have a good enough quality Internet connection. 371 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,000 We had quite a lot of. 372 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:57,000 Quite a lot of students who were abroad who were primarily accessing recordings because they just don't have the bandwidth to watch something live 373 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:02,000 And so I think that's also where not just that recognition and that stepping up of 374 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:07,000 institutions are saying you can't just assume these things are accessible and are ubiquitous, 375 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:14,000 but also that. You need to provide alternatives for people in different situations. 376 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:21,000 There is also another assumption at times, and one which I suppose I feel includes me and a sense, 377 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:29,000 and it is my responsibility to, I suppose, train myself to keep up with and to learn new ideas as it comes along. 378 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:34,000 But it's one of the things I've found very difficult, and it intimidates me to some extent. 379 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:43,000 And of course, I've learnt an awful lot in recent times that I probably wouldn't have been forced to do so if we hadn't been in this situation. 380 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:50,000 However. I think that there is an assumption of skill and a policy sometimes where, what, 381 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:55,000 some one off or a couple of the worst sessions I've been in is where and polls come in to this 382 00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:02,000 That's where polls have been used. And I would say probably to four questionable means whether they were useful or not. 383 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:11,000 And I have had difficulty even managing to keep up with the speed at which their responses were expected and, you know, felt really uncomfortable. 384 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:17,000 And I couldn't keep up with that. I mean, it's not just because I'm in that particular age group. 385 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,000 I'm trying to deal with new things that I'm finding difficult. 386 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:27,000 It's there is an assumption of knowledge sometimes, which is quite difficult to keep up with. 387 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:36,000 I mean, I forced myself to do that. But if to deliver webinars, et cetera, I'm one of the things which has still kept me from getting more involved, 388 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:46,000 as I'm slightly afraid of having to deal with other people's I.T. difficulties and their remote connections that I could barely deal with my own. 389 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:51,000 You're right, Pauline. And I think that we can't meet again. We can't make that assumption based on. 390 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,000 There are lots of people who, you know, 391 00:41:55,000 --> 00:42:03,000 have grown up with technology that are still that still don't have a high level of technical experience or technical literacy and. 392 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:11,000 And again, it's one of those really challenging assumptions, and so it's making sure that whether the person is an attendee or presenter, 393 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,000 that they have all of the all of the support that they need. 394 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:22,000 And certainly, I mean, in terms of the way we run our our kind of formal webinars, 395 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:28,000 as we always have an administrator who deals with the technical kind of troubleshooting issues, part of that. 396 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:33,000 So that presenter can focus on just that presenting rather than dealing with technical issues. 397 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:40,000 But it also usually means that it's someone that's more experienced with the system and who has the 398 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:46,000 experience and the knowledge to to answer those questions and to do that troubleshooting people. 399 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:51,000 And it doesn't mean we can always answer everyone's problems. We certainly cannot. 400 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:57,000 But. That seems to be a lot coming out that about. 401 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:02,000 Inclusivity And are our assumptions around? 402 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:08,000 People's set up and how people are accessing things. And. 403 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,000 And how people want to engage, I guess, and particularly where, you know, Meghan, 404 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:17,000 you talked about people expecting you to have your camera on or expecting you to go. 405 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,000 You know, people saying, is it going to break out rooms? 406 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:26,000 Actually, we're making a lot of assumptions there about how people want to engage, but also how people want to learn. 407 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:36,000 You know, we we recognise that people learn differently. And so and yet we're not necessarily giving people the opportunity to learn differently. 408 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:41,000 Yeah, I just wanted to really support and echo what you were saying in that I don't think the way 409 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:47,000 a lot of people have moved things to online is inclusive for everyone's learning style. 410 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:54,000 I'm happy to sit and read, but I'm also happy to sit and listen. Asked me to do both at the same time, and I really struggle with that. 411 00:43:54,000 --> 00:44:04,000 And I think that regardless of whether your neurotypical you struggle with visuospatial or other types of learning, 412 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:08,000 providing multiple resources and doing things at a slower pace is help with that. 413 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:13,000 But yet, like way in the move to online, I think we forget that not everyone bends in the same way. 414 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:19,000 And I think, Ticky. So we've made great strides in how to make our lectures more inclusive and accessible. 415 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:25,000 But now we've kind of looked online. I feel like a lot of the physical mechanisms we put in place and are no longer there. 416 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:31,000 Yeah. And it's a whole new set of considerations. I actually and I link in the show notes. 417 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:41,000 I, I did the accessibility of e-learning course at the Open University just as it was a free online course and. 418 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:48,000 Was it's largely about kind of static. So, you know, asynchronous online resources. 419 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:57,000 But nonetheless, it was really interesting to look at some of the some of the commentary around some really specific 420 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:01,000 technical issues around things like screen readers and some of these things that we've talked about today, 421 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:12,000 but also actually the fundamental pedagogical imperative of, regardless of accessibility, 422 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:20,000 and inclusivity, we should be providing things in multiple formats and engagement in in multiple ways. 423 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,000 Because because of that very thing. Because people learn differently. 424 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:33,000 And so we should be providing things in a way that gives people the option of how to engage an in a way that's going to help them learn. 425 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:43,000 I think that people presenting online should be encouraged to, like others have said, send out material beforehand, 426 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:53,000 but then not be put off when someone would like access material and might like access the recording afterwards, 427 00:45:53,000 --> 00:46:02,000 then doesn't necessarily they're either not able to attend the actual session or for whatever reason they can engage with webinars. 428 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:08,000 I think that that means we normalise a bit more. Because for me, I need to have something like hammered into me. 429 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:15,000 I need to read it loads, write it, hear it. And so for me, getting the materials beforehand would help. 430 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:19,000 Engaging with material during and after that would all be great. 431 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:27,000 I know for some webinars, I've not been able to I've not been able to attend them in person. 432 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:32,000 I've asked for the materials anyway. And some people have been great and said, yes, of course. 433 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:36,000 Like, that's such a shame that you can't engage. But I'll send you the slides or the notes later. 434 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:43,000 And some people said, well, no, if you're not able to come and engage in in person, in inverted commas, 435 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:49,000 if you're not able to attend the back more than no, I'm not giving you my material, which is understandable. 436 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:55,000 But I do think that it would be really nice if we could be a little bit more open in sharing our best practise. 437 00:46:55,000 --> 00:47:04,000 If there are people listening to this who are new to delivering online. What's the one thing you want them to bear in mind? 438 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:15,000 Go slower than you think, you need to take it and be kind both to yourself and to the people in the seminar with you. 439 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:24,000 Yes, that's I think that that's taking it slower. It's really, really important because, like somebody said earlier, your. 440 00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:32,000 All of the things that all of the communicative tools that someone read off you in person and that you would read off a screen are out of the window. 441 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:40,000 And so. I find I get a lot more tired doing online teaching because I'm doing an awful lot more 442 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:47,000 with my voice than I would normally to communicate and to make things more engaging. 443 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:56,000 Accessibility, utilising universal design. I'm sort of almost horrified at the number of people who still don't do this. 444 00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:04,000 And especially considering that providing resources for people who have registered learning 445 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:11,000 differences or physical disabilities that might prevent them from engaging in certain ways. 446 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:16,000 The fact that some people are still not providing accessible resources. 447 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:26,000 So it kind of shocks me in the year 2020. So I think just making sure that things are presented in different formats are accessible to those. 448 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:35,000 And and even just emailing participants in advance and saying, what is that that I can do to make this session more accessible to your needs? 449 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:41,000 And that the person leading the session doesn't need to know what the needs of the people are at that point. 450 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:48,000 They don't need to be a member of the university who might get a copy if their learning. 451 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:55,000 So what's the cool that they're the document that they get that that details 452 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:59,000 what resources individuals need to put them on an equal par with their peers. 453 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:05,000 But just emailing participants and saying, what is it that I can do to make this session more accessible to you? 454 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:12,000 And then people can email and say power points in advance or please put on screen captions, 455 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:16,000 or would it be possible to have a transcript produced afterwards? 456 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:24,000 Those sorts of things would help a lot of people. I would say attend other online sessions. 457 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,000 I'm down what you find helpful. 458 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:37,000 What you didn't and then try and learn from that because it's such an on such a weird world being online and trying to keep people engaged. 459 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:47,000 And so the more experience you have of being a participant, the better informed you will be trying to create sections that will be engaging. 460 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:56,000 And there just one other thing that I wanted to see, which sort of links back to what we were saying about how amazing some webinars are and how we've 461 00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:02,000 been able to attend some of the world conferences that we otherwise wouldn't be able to attend. 462 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:11,000 Also, being inclusive of industry or your non institutional partners. 463 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:18,000 That's something really important to keep in mind as well. Yeah, just to kind of echo what's been said already, I think. 464 00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:22,000 Definitely be aware of your pace. Don't be afraid to take things more slowly. 465 00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:27,000 That is something I am very guilty of. And I have a habit of speaking quite quickly. 466 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,000 So I very much, if I'm leading a session, 467 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:39,000 remind people that I'm pretty comfortable with them asking me to repeat something, say something slower, go over concepts. 468 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:44,000 But I think more broadly as well as is really focussing on the accessibility and inclusivity. 469 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:50,000 So making sure that you've got a variety of resources accessible to as many different people as you can think of, 470 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,000 but also echoing what's being said area, 471 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:59,000 making sure that if this is something you could do in advance, get in touch of people and check, that they can have everything catered for. 472 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:06,000 And particularly as a participant who potentially hasn't been involved in this before, they may not even know what to ask for. 473 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:12,000 So making sure that you you get that clear agenda and structure of what you plan to do and what is expected, 474 00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:18,000 what the House rules are gives people an idea of what they may need from you as well. 475 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,000 I think we're going to draw it to a close. That. 476 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:32,000 Thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me this afternoon and offering your your insights into your experience as. 477 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:39,000 As students, as the recipients of online training and development. And that's it for this episode, a long one. 478 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:44,000 I know, but I think incredibly valuable with some really important discussions. 479 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:55,000 And I was really. Heartened to hear coming through that that drive of accessibility, an inclusivity because. 480 00:51:55,000 --> 00:52:00,000 My own reflections during this period have been, yes, technology can be a leveller. 481 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:06,000 But we can't just assume that because we've moved something online, it's more accessible and more inclusive. 482 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:11,000 There's still a lot of work to be done. And that's it for this episode. 483 00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,000 Difficult to, like, rare and subscribe and join me. 484 00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:41,610 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/   Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Hello and welcome to R, D and the in betweens. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:32,000 I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researches, development and everything in between. 3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:40,000 Hi, everyone. I come to you this episode with an apology. Unfortunately, there's no new episode of R, D and the in betweens this week. 4 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:45,000 If you follow me on Twitter, you'll know that about a week ago, my computer got the blue screen of death. 5 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,000 And unfortunately, I lost my latest recording for the podcast. 6 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:56,000 I'm also about to take a couple of weeks hiatus, so I'm going on annual leave for the next two weeks. 7 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:01,000 And after some careful thought, I decided that I would take a break from the podcast as well. 8 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:08,000 Given how stressful and manic the past few months have been, I could really do with some time to drstress and decompress. 9 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:15,000 But I wanted to take this opportunity to give you a little a little teaser of what's coming up on R, D and in the In Betweens. 10 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,000 I've already recorded an episode of the podcast this week about online training, 11 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:26,000 and development talking to a group of our PGRs about their experience as students of online training and development. 12 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:34,000 There's been so much focus recently on how difficult it's been for staff to get things online during COVID 13 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,000 I want to take a step back and actually think about. 14 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:46,000 What that's been like for the students and some of the benefits and the flexibility of developing delivering this kind of content online. 15 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,000 I've also planning to talk to the leaders of our BME network at the University of Exeter 16 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:56,000 about the advocacy and the work that they've been doing over the past few years to 17 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:01,000 really take us to becoming an anti-racist university and the way in which the university 18 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:07,000 has really got on board and started to make tangible changes in the past few months. 19 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,000 I'm also planning some special episodes for the start of term. 20 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:18,000 I've got a compilation episode of advice from our researchers and staff about starting a research degree. 21 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:26,000 And I'm also gonna talk to our student union or at Exeter to the Students Guild and V.P. for Postgraduates and president, 22 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:36,000 both of whom are postgraduate researchers and have been really active in the postgraduate research community and advocacy for our PGR students. 23 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:41,000 So we got some great stuff coming up, and I hope you'll bear with me whilst I take my little holiday. 24 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,000 But we'll be back on the twenty sixth of August, and that's it for this episode. 25 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,000 Don't forget to like, rare and subscribe and join me. 26 00:02:49,000 --> 00:03:15,701 Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.  

In this episode I talk to Tracey Warren about the challenges of being a self-funded, distance, international PGR. You can find Tracey on twitter @TraceyW19521302   Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ Podcast transcript   1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,000 Hello and welcome to R, D   2 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:32,000 And the inbetweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between.   3 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,000 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens.   4 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:44,000 I'm your host, Kelly Preece. And in this episode, I'm going to be talking to another of our postgraduate researchers, Tracey Warren.   5 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:52,000 So Tracey contacted me after we released an episode of our doctoral college podcast, Beyond Your Research Degree,   6 00:00:52,000 --> 00:01:01,000 where I talked to James Alspp, who was a self-funded postgraduate research student and is now working as a secondary school teacher.   7 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:11,000 Tracey got in contact because she was pleased to hear the experiences and the challenges of being a self-funded student articulated in this way.   8 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:16,000 And so we decided we'd record an episode of the podcast about her experience of   9 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:22,000 being not only a self-funded but international postgraduate research student.   10 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:26,000 So, Tracey. Are you happy to introduce yourself? Okay.   11 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:35,000 My name's Tracey Warren. I'm a self-funded international.   12 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:40,000 Research student on the EdD programme, which is a bit of a mouthful.   13 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:46,000 I sometimes have to remember which part of that sentence to remember.   14 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:51,000 So I'm self-funded, which means that I pay for it myself.   15 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:56,000 I'm an international student, although you can probably tell I'm British.   16 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:01,000 But the main reason I'm an international student is because I lived abroad for quite a long time.   17 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:14,000 And when I started this research degree, I was living in the UAE in Abu Dhabi, and hence why I am classed as an international student.   18 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:23,000 Why the EdD and why a research programme? Well, that's a, that'll probably take up a lot of the time, but   19 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:28,000 Yes. It's something that has been on my mind for quite a long time.   20 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,000 I'd say about 15, 20 years.   21 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:39,000 So it's been something that's been part of at the back of my mind, thinking about doing.   22 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:49,000 Whilst I've been having my very busy career and 15 years ago or thereabouts, I had had an offer to do research at Manchester.   23 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:58,000 And then life comes along and a whammy. So I put it to one side and life carried on.   24 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:07,000 And then in 2016, I decided, you know what, I need to revisit this.   25 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:12,000 So I say, yes. The grand old age.   26 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:21,000 I think at the time, 52, I decided that this is something I need to take up before I got too long in the tooth.   27 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:30,000 Why a research degree? Because I've had a lot of experience in education, management, leadership.   28 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:42,000 Special Needs Inclusion International UK that I just thought that I could bring something to the wider audience.   29 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:48,000 And that's why I wanted to do something in research. At the time, I thought I knew what I wanted to do.   30 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:52,000 But obviously, as time's gone on, it has become much more narrow.   31 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:57,000 And I'm in the fourth year. So it's been quite a long journey for me, though.   32 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:03,000 So for two years, I was at Exeter for February and then summer.   33 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:16,000 So it's been quite a lengthy journey, but one that's not only been challenging, but also completely interesting and totally absorbing.   34 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,000 That's fantastic. What an introduction.   35 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:25,000 So you've spoken a little bit about why you wanted to do the research degree, but I wondered if you could talk about the other side of that,   36 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:32,000 which is not just the decision to do the research degree, but to fund it yourself.   37 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:49,000 Well, the self funding was a no brainer, really, living abroad meant that I had very little in the way of access to opportunities for funding.   38 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:54,000 So not even from the company that I worked for would have even considered that.   39 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,000 I mean, we are talking of when I think I first started out,   40 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:03,000 it was about seven and a half thousand pounds a year and it's risen to about nine and a half.   41 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:11,000 So it's a lot of money and therefore the decision to go down this path.   42 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:18,000 I knew that I am a complete a finisher, so therefore I knew that I would get there.   43 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:27,000 But the decision to actually go down the route of doing a research degree at that level of funding requirement,   44 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:39,000 I sort of knew that by the end of it, with flights we travel with, accommodation, we are talking of over 4-5 years of an investment.   45 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:45,000 And that's the word I would use of about fifty thousand pounds, which is a heck of a lot of money.   46 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:51,000 And it was something that I knew from the start.   47 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:56,000 And it's only now just becoming challenging because obviously I'm going to approach a fifth year.   48 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:01,000 So the rationale was very, very clear.   49 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:09,000 The reasoning for going self funding was very clear that I had no alternative.   50 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:13,000 But also, I knew that I had to work to find that funding myself.   51 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:26,000 So I did work full time for the first three years, as well as juggling everything else that I was required to do for the for the cause.   52 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:35,000 So that was a leadership director position and trying to juggle a research.   53 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,000 Part-Time Degree. So let's just pick up on that a minute.   54 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:46,000 What is it like to undergo that juggling act of a full time job and a part time research degree?   55 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:54,000 You have to be very organised and also almost blinkered because, for example,   56 00:06:54,000 --> 00:07:00,000 I also commuted between Abu Dhabi and Dubai, which took out three hours a day minimum.   57 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:06,000 So during the working week, it was very much blinkered work.   58 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,000 And then weekends, it was very much focussing on. I've got two days.   59 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:23,000 This is how many hours a week I could do. So it was being very organised about my timing and planning well ahead, like I'd write an action plan.   60 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:30,000 And also, I had very little in the way of holidays. Living abroad is very different.   61 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:35,000 You have very different terms and conditions to your employment.   62 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,000 So I was only entitled to 22 days a year.   63 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:51,000 So even coming back to Exeter. For the requirement for I think it's February or March, like a two day weekend and then the summer school.   64 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:59,000 That was part of my leave. So for the first two years, it was hard work, knowing full well I had very little in the way of holiday.   65 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:07,000 So being very well organised, well planned and focused was the only way to get through it.   66 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:12,000 It was tough the first few years. Yes, incredibly tough.   67 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:18,000 And the level of dedication it takes to undertake a research degree under any circumstances is huge.   68 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:28,000 But to do that was working full time and knowing full well that you you're giving up your free time, you're giving up your holidays is colossal.   69 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:41,000 But I think that's that's a level of. Not just focus, but eagerness to to make that leap, because I also had a lot of backing.   70 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:51,000 You know, my husband who has been amazing because it meant me spending a lot of time in my study.   71 00:08:51,000 --> 00:09:02,000 So that in itself was a big decision at the start that we knew that I'd have to give up a lot of time.   72 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:11,000 So the big holidays that we'd have, we reduced and the time going out at weekends was reduced.   73 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:19,000 So there was like a not a written, like a not to a code,   74 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:24,000 but we had the understanding that it was for a very short period of time and that so long as I   75 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:32,000 was clear and dedicated that I could get through it with the support of my husband and my family.   76 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:40,000 Absolutely. And a lot of the rhetoric around being a part time student is that it's not just an individual commitment.   77 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,000 No, you have to have a level of support.   78 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:52,000 Like, for example, there were times when I had to get assignments in that it was all day all nighters and he'd throw food in through the study with,   79 00:09:52,000 --> 00:10:04,000 you know, door like he or his food. So, yeah, I think it's the level of support you've got behind you that that helps.   80 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:10,000 I know I, I couldn't have got to this stage without that level of support.   81 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:20,000 What's it like being an international student? What is it like starting out at what is a very considerable distance from the university?   82 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:28,000 There's two things, really, because I have relocated back to UK and September the 30th of last year.   83 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:43,000 So I've got two perspectives. So as an international student, I think up to and I'd say up to almost COVID, I would say it's quite disembodied.   84 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:57,000 I felt very much part of Exeter and being a student when I was there, especially during those spring and summer schools,   85 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:07,000 I found them great because it was that opportunity to connect with like minded people, academics, my tutors, my supervisor.   86 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:18,000 And therefore, it was it was quite it was quite absorbing being there during those times and all embracing because you   87 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:26,000 met others in your cohort and mix with other people from different cohorts in different groupings.   88 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:37,000 So it was an amazing experience, but very disembodied I would say because you'd fly in or I would fly in as an international student,   89 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:43,000 arrive, check in, throw my stuff into my room and start reading and preparing.   90 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:52,000 So those times are really great because I found as if I was part of the university when I was away.   91 00:11:52,000 --> 00:12:01,000 There was a little bit of disconnect, and I found that quite challenging because I actually quite like a spark with people.   92 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:08,000 I like that engagement. So I had to then think about how I was actually going to gain that.   93 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:17,000 So a group of us actually did like a WhatsApp group and and supported each other through the first couple of years.   94 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:23,000 So that was nice because we actually kept in contact. But as an international student.   95 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:29,000 It's part time and living abroad. There is that little bit of a disconnect,   96 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:36,000 and I will then talk about what's happened recently because I would be constantly sending e-mails about what's happening.   97 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:41,000 And I'd be really fascinated.   98 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:50,000 Oh, I really want to join in and listen to that, or I'd love to be there during that time, or there will be some course that would be really useful.   99 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:56,000 And when I'd ask for perhaps it could be put online or whether it could be recorded.   100 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:11,000 That wasn't possible at that time. Which was. I'll say disappointing and disheartening, but I'll say since COVID it's amazing what's happened.   101 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:19,000 I feel as if now, though the opportunity has been embraced by Exeter,   102 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:30,000 and I feel that now they've recognised that the use of virtual online training access is possible.   103 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:36,000 And I feel much more part of the university.   104 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:45,000 Now more than I had before, because there's a lot more happening through zoom through teams.   105 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:53,000 So there's much more engagement online and a good one, I think, is how we got in touch with the shut up and write sessions.   106 00:13:53,000 --> 00:14:03,000 I was fascinated. Oh, OK. I'd love that. But since they've gone online, I have actually been attending, I think, for the last five, six weeks.   107 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:11,000 And to me, that has really helped my writing really helps with engagement with other students and understanding that I'm not the only one.   108 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:17,000 I'm not actually alone. There's other people struggling as well and sharing those successes as well.   109 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:21,000 Even if they're small, those type of sessions have been great.   110 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:28,000 The fact that they're now online and I can access them. So I think there's almost been like a journey for Exeter.   111 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:39,000 And for me, as well as a distance international student, because I had to find a way of being engaged, motivated.   112 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:44,000 And I think it has been.   113 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:50,000 Very. Upsetting about what's been happening in the world.   114 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,000 And for certain people, it's been really distressing.   115 00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:01,000 But there's also been another side of seeing what opportunities have happened and taking note.   116 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:09,000 And it's been amazing to see what's happened with the university about it now going much more online and giving greater,   117 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:21,000 greater access to people like me. So I wonder, what have the other challenges been for you as a part time international self-funded student?   118 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:30,000 We've talked about access to on campus support. But what else what else has been a real challenge or a barrier to you?   119 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:37,000 That's quite tricky cause I always try and turn things around. I talked about the negative and I'm not one that always harps on the negative.   120 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:49,000 I always try and find positives. I think if you got if you are doing a research degree or a degree part time with.   121 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:54,000 You have to be well organised and planned.   122 00:15:54,000 --> 00:16:01,000 I think the best thing was actually being provided with all the dates of assignments so I could put them in my calendar.   123 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:08,000 And I'm a very electronic person anyhow. So I had all of that down, all of my dates.   124 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:19,000 It is about being organised and about developing that, developing a rapport with the other students in your group.   125 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:24,000 Also with your supervisors. I think that was crucial for me,   126 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:34,000 especially if the last two years whilst I'm in thesis stage developing that rapport has been crucial because there's times or I've been like.   127 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:47,000 You know, I've got to write reports for my CEO. And having that relationship to be able to say I need that space, but also for my supervisor,   128 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:53,000 Yeat but Tracey, you know, you've still got to keep within target dates and then and timescales.   129 00:16:53,000 --> 00:17:02,000 And for them to understand that you're in a different you have different priorities.   130 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,000 So it's those priorities ebb and flow.   131 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:10,000 So, for example, I knew that I needed to get an assignment done.   132 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:15,000 So work didn't just take a backseat, it rolled along.   133 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:19,000 But I was able to change my priorities during that period of time.   134 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:26,000 So it's it's looking at your priorities being action, planning, being well organised.   135 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,000 Knowing the library really well. Yeah.   136 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:36,000 I'm a great reader and organising not just your time, but organising your files.   137 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,000 That was something that I learnt.   138 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:50,000 From doing an open university course was that, you know, to get your literature sorted out very quickly and a system for that.   139 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:54,000 So I think that's fair. Any student. But for me, it was very much so.   140 00:17:54,000 --> 00:18:03,000 I could find it very quickly, both it in my literature organising my filing so that I could gain it easily.   141 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:07,000 So, yeah, I'm being very adept.   142 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,000 So, for example, I'm talking about I love to learn.   143 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:16,000 So like youtubing, I've had to do use and NVivo this during my thesis.   144 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:24,000 So I'm adept at looking at courses online to check out how to use things.   145 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:31,000 So it begue being self disciplined as well as self-reliant.   146 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:37,000 And that's part of being a researcher I think is actually eagerness to learn.   147 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,000 And therefore, if you've got a problem, how to work around it.   148 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,000 And I think that's those are the key things I've had to do, be independent, self-reliant.   149 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:56,000 And a problem solver. Okay, so imagine for me that there's another Tracey out there who's about to embark on a research degree   150 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,000 and they're going to be thinking about doing it part time.   151 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:11,000 And as an international student and funding it themselves, what advice would you give them before they started?   152 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:24,000 I knew would be tough, but actually that's the part that's been the toughest, is the writing up their thesis?   153 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:31,000 I'm used to writing. I had to write reports for various people and thousands of words that I've never been a problem.   154 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:38,000 But writing this thesis up has been the biggest challenge, whether it's the case of the blank screen.   155 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:44,000 I'm not sure. But I am now at, say, two thirds through.   156 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:52,000 I think if it was, the advice to myself would be.   157 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,000 Think about the writing beforehand. Okay.   158 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:08,000 I've taken a lot of time preparing all the data, collecting it, analysing it, but I really hadn't anticipated how challenging this writing had been.   159 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:17,000 So I think if I'd have known that my my the advice myself for myself would be to go read many more ideas   160 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:26,000 that I'd been published to go and have a look at some of those before I started writing.   161 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:34,000 So that's one of the things I think also that the old adage of it's a marathon, not a sprint.   162 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:40,000 That's never been me. I'm such a goal orientated person.   163 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:45,000 Yeah, I could do this. I can do this. But actually, that has been one.   164 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,000 Probably one of the best things that.   165 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:56,000 I had to remind myself of especially the last couple of months, because I have found through writing since about March.   166 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:06,000 And I think some of COVID, it has impacted on me. So I think keep reminding myself that you're in for this for the for the long term.   167 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,000 So even if you only write 100 words a day, just do it.   168 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:21,000 I think for me, that was the best thing, was keeping myself motivated and always give myself some space.   169 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:26,000 I think those were the three. If I had to give myself that advice four years ago, that's when it would be.   170 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:33,000 And be kinder to myself. Think sometimes we're not.   171 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:40,000 I think sometimes we're not. We might be kinder to others, but we're not always kind of kinder to ourselves.   172 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:45,000 That's a really poignant piece of advice and I think.   173 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:52,000 So if that's what you need, if that's what you'd say to Tracey, what would you say to universities?   174 00:21:52,000 --> 00:22:03,000 What do they need to think about more in terms of the lived experience of being a part time international self-funded student?   175 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:10,000 For me, I think the university needed  to engage much more with their international students,   176 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:20,000 not just send an email saying, oh, those these courses going on at the student, there's this seminar, this I just felt.   177 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:28,000 Yeah, okay. But that actually doesn't help me. And I feel that they have they are making those changes,   178 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:36,000 and I feel sad that it's taken some some of it has taken a pandemic for it to make that big change.   179 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:41,000 Yeah, I completely get that, but I think, like you and I try and see the positives.   180 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:51,000 And I felt really, really energised by some of the shifts and changes that have come about lately because of the pandemic and the shift online.   181 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:57,000 And it's like so it's like when you're thinking about accessibility and inclusion, you don't make things accessible.   182 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:02,000 You don't think about inclusivity just to support the needs of one person.   183 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:11,000 You do it because actually providing things in multiple formats, in multiple kinds of engagement, it benefits the entire community.   184 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:16,000 It benefits everybody, not just that individual person with specific needs.   185 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:26,000 Oh, you said it so beautifully. Yeah, I'd say I'd say it's about inclusivity because that is actually part of my research is about inclusion.   186 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:32,000 And to me, when I've been doing going through the process of a thesis and writing,   187 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:37,000 some of it was quite poignant and it was a bit that's how I actually feel.   188 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:45,000 And and being part of something and that's why I said the key words to me were about engaging,   189 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:55,000 feeling a part of something, and therefore that helps you with motivation and inclusivity or diversity.   190 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,000 It's amazing the world out there.   191 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:07,000 And the university has the opportunity to engage much more with international students, which will then increase their diversity of ideas.   192 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:14,000 And that in itself is is worthwhile because there's a lot happening out in the world.   193 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:22,000 And it's just saying that there is a blinkered view or there has been because this is amazing research,   194 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:28,000 some amazing ideas, but it's sad that it's it it it's inward looking.   195 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,000 And I feel that that engagement,   196 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:45,000 participation and idea of opening out and being much more inclusive would gather these ideas and increase participation by international students.   197 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:51,000 I think what we've seen with the Shut up and write sessions is actually it doesn't need to be anything particularly complicated.   198 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,000 Oh, absolutely. I love watching and see where everybody is.   199 00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:03,000 I mean, I can see the same the same group, core group comes in and that's great because that's that's probably the stage you're at.   200 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:09,000 I mean, certainly for me, it's very right. So between nine and 12, I'm going to do this.   201 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:14,000 And that's great. It helps to organise your day if you're that type of person. And it helps you to focus.   202 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:20,000 But not only that, it also helps you to feel part of a community. And that's why I talk about engagement and participation.   203 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:25,000 You need to feel part of a community, the community of Exeter,   204 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:32,000 and that that should be what the that the university should be about of making people feel.   205 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:37,000 Part of that community. Community of learners.   206 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:45,000 Thanks so much to Tracy for taking the time to talk to me and making some really, really powerful and salient points about.   207 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:51,000 About kindness to yourself and but also the importance of community of learners.   208 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,000 And that seemed to be something that kept coming through.   209 00:25:54,000 --> 00:26:07,000 About the challenges of being that international part time self-funded student is how how you engage with and how you develop that sense of community.   210 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:16,000 I was also really, really interested to hear her talk about the disembodied nature of being an international student,   211 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:21,000 particularly somebody that used to research embodiment in in digital world.   212 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,000 So that's something that to me sounds like a challenge.   213 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:36,000 And I'm one I'm going to think a lot more about, about how we can bring embodiment back into the virtual world, into the online training that we do.   214 00:26:36,000 --> 00:27:08,476 And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to, like, rate and subscribe. and join me next time where i'll talking to somebody else about researchers, development, and everything in-between!