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Meatball and Big Dipper are joined by writer, director, and actor Alison Rich to chat about what exactly she was up to on Y2K. They learn about Harvard, The Lampoon, and what it takes to elect a little king. Plus they chat about her love of directing funny things and then Alison gets a lesson on cumdump etiquette…can you believe? Listen to Sloppy Seconds Ad-Free AND One Day Early on MOM Plus Call us with your sex stories at 213-536-9180! Or e-mail us at sloppysecondspod@gmail.com FOLLOW SLOPPY SECONDS FOLLOW BIG DIPPER FOLLOW MEATBALL SLOPPY SECONDS IS A FOREVER DOG AND MOGULS OF MEDIA (M.O.M.) PODCAST Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
A quick rundown of movies that never made it to production.
Joey C joins me for another review of a John Landis movie starring John Belushi. That's right it's National Lampoon's Animal House! We talk about this wild comedy in our Belushi inspired costumes. Stick around for the end of the episode where we interview Mark Metcalf who played Niedermeyer in the film. He also played The Maestro in Seinfeld and The Master in Buffy The Vampire Slayer! Buy Mark's book https://a.co/d/7g4q0BN
2024 marks the 35th Anniversary of National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation, the third installment in Chevy Chase's Lampoon films. While the film was initially met with mixed reviews when it was released in December 1989, it has gone on to be considered a holiday classic, delighting audiences from multiple generations. A big part of the appeal is the laugh-a-minute script by 80s cinema icon John Hughes, who managed to wring biting sarcasm and genuine emotion out of the Griswold family's Christmas from hell. So join the Great Pop Culture Debate players as they refill their eggnog, take an imaginary dip in an inground pool, and bring out the rubber sheets and gerbils while reenacting the debating the Best Quote from National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation. Join host Eric Rezsnyak and GPCD panelists Karissa Kloss, Michael Schwarz, and Zack Derby as they check their shitters, and then debate 16 of the most iconic quotes from National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation. Play along at home by finding the listener bracket here. Make a copy for yourself, fill it out, and see if your picks match up with ours! For more exclusive content, including warm-up in which we discuss the quotes the panelists think SHOULD have made the bracket, become a Patreon supporter of the podcast today. Want to play along at home? Download the Listener Bracket and see if your picks match up with ours! Sign up for our weekly newsletter! Subscribe to find out what's new in pop culture each week right in your inbox! Vote in more pop culture polls! Check out our Open Polls. Your votes determine our future debates! Then, vote in our Future Topic Polls to have a say in what episodes we tackle next. Episode Credits Host: Eric Rezsnyak Panel: Karissa Kloss, Michael Schwarz, Zack Derby Producer: Bob Erlenback Editor: Bob Erlenback Theme Music: “Dance to My Tune” by Marc Torch Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
A Fun Old Fashioned Family Christmas. Thoughts on 'Christmas Vacation' to enhance your Thanksgiving weekend.Follow:Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCe_h0uQSYGTVlb44nzXSXuQEmail your movie questions: philwmovies@gmail.comSocial Media:• https://twitter.com/PhilWMovies• https://twitter.com/PhilAtTheMovies• https://www.instagram.com/philatthemovies/
Rob Ulin joins me to discuss watching Gilligan's Island and Dick Van Dyke Show as a kid; wanting to be an actor; going to Harvard and being on Lampoon with Conan; writing a letter to Norman Lear who mentored him; writing the teleplay for a Married with Children; writing an episode of Hard Times on Planet Earth; how Ferris Bueller the TV series almost made him quit writing; Chloris Leachman; writing Dinosaurs made him enjoy writing; doing episodes poking fun at the elderly, religion; an episode in which homosexuality and vegetarianism are parallelled; "New Leaf" about drugs; and dancing as a metaphor for masturbation and wet dreams; joining the writing staff of Roseanne; writing emotional episodes that still had jokes; winning a Humanitas Prize; Ned Beatty; the famous writers T-shirt story; trying to edit the lesbian kiss episode; Shelly Winters; trying to get Shirley Jones & Florence Henderson for a TV mom's episode; getting fired; working with Dave Raether; going to Veronicas Closet and then Stressed Eric; working with Norm MacDonald on Norm; Norm was not able to be an exaggerated version of himself but could act; Jack Warden; Frank Sebastiano; working on Andy Richter Controls the Universe and George Lopez; tackling race on Roseanne; working on Malcolm in the Middle; writing a pilot, My Boys; writing Aliens in America the first post 9-11 sitcom featuring a Muslim cast member; working on The Middle, Anger Management with Charlie Sheen, The Carmichael Show & Young Sheldon; working on The Kids are Alright; Rami; writing his first play Judgement Day starring Jason Alexander; and future projects
The Projector Room Podcast Show Notes Show 168 Ted Salmon, Gareth Myles and Allan Gildea Projector Room Community Projector Room Group at MeWe Feedback and Contributions Adrian Brain on Speak No Evil (2022) Phil Harding on The Bench (2007/2024) Adrian Brain on Caveat (2020) Robert Macrowan on The Union (2024) Flop of the Fortnight Adrian Brain on Superdeep (2020) Private Screening The Cheap Detective (1978) - Full Movie on YouTube Murder by Death (1976) Themed Treats (Donald Sutherland) Don't Look Now (1973) National Lampoon's Animal House (1978) The Eagle Has Landed (1976) Citizen X (1995) Kelly's Heroes (1970) Invasion Of The Body Snatchers (1978) The Main Feature The Shining (1980) vs The Shining (1997) Secrets Of The Shining The Instigators (2024) Rolling Thunder (1977) The Dogs of War (1980) Bonus Reviews Nightmare Beach (1989) - Gareth's Review Violent (2014) - Ted's Review Coming Soon Hysteria (2024) (2024) - Trailer Goodrich (2024) (2024) - Trailer The Room Next Door (2024) (2024) - Trailer The Island (2024) - Trailer Greedy People (2024) - Trailer Azrael (2024) - Trailer The Final Curtain Gena Rowlands Alain Delon John Clegg PodHubUK - Ted on Twitter - Ted on Mastodon - MeWe PSC Group - PSC Photos - PSC Videos - WhateverWorks - Camera Creations - TechAddictsUK - The TechBox - Chewing Gum for the Ears - Projector Room - Coffee Time - Ted's Salmagundi - Steve's Rants'n'Raves - Steve's YouTube Shorts
The Projector Room Podcast Show Notes Show 168 Ted Salmon, Gareth Myles and Allan Gildea Projector Room Community Projector Room Group at MeWe Feedback and Contributions Adrian Brain on Speak No Evil (2022) Phil Harding on The Bench (2007/2024) Adrian Brain on Caveat (2020) Robert Macrowan on The Union (2024) Flop of the Fortnight Adrian Brain on Superdeep (2020) Private Screening The Cheap Detective (1978) - Full Movie on YouTube Murder by Death (1976) Themed Treats (Donald Sutherland) Don't Look Now (1973) National Lampoon's Animal House (1978) The Eagle Has Landed (1976) Citizen X (1995) Kelly's Heroes (1970) Invasion Of The Body Snatchers (1978) The Main Feature The Shining (1980) vs The Shining (1997) Secrets Of The Shining The Instigators (2024) Rolling Thunder (1977) The Dogs of War (1980) Bonus Reviews Nightmare Beach (1989) - Gareth's Review Violent (2014) - Ted's Review Coming Soon Hysteria (2024) (2024) - Trailer Goodrich (2024) (2024) - Trailer The Room Next Door (2024) (2024) - Trailer The Island (2024) - Trailer Greedy People (2024) - Trailer Azrael (2024) - Trailer The Final Curtain Gena Rowlands Alain Delon John Clegg PodHubUK - Ted on Twitter - Ted on Mastodon - MeWe PSC Group - PSC Photos - PSC Videos - WhateverWorks - Camera Creations - TechAddictsUK - The TechBox - Chewing Gum for the Ears - Projector Room - Coffee Time - Ted's Salmagundi - Steve's Rants'n'Raves - Steve's YouTube Shorts
On today's episode I have 3x Emmy Winning writer, producer, and the king of the fast food review, Bill Oakley! Bill is somebody that I have wanted to have on the show for quite some time now. He is best known as a legendary writer and showrunner of The Simpsons for Seasons 3-9, as well as his work on Futurama, Portlandia, Disenchantment, and of course Mission Hill. Bill and his longtime writing and producing partner Josh Weinstein will be in San Diego celebrating the 25th Anniversary of Mission Hill on Thursday, July 25th @ 7PM at the Music Box Theater. They will be joined by original cast members, Brian Posehn as well as Herbert Siguenza. Get your tickets before they sell out on the link below. I talked with Bill about meeting Josh Weinstein in High School, forming their partnership, going to school at Harvard and working on the Lampoon, getting hired on The Simpsons and the iconic episodes he made, how Mission Hill was started, advice for aspiring writers, how the fast food and snack reviews were started, and so much more! A huge Thank You to Bill Oakley for taking the time to join me on the episode. It was so good getting to know him and learning more about his career. Make sure to grab your tickets for the 25th Anniversary of Mission Hill and follow Bill on all the links at www.onthemicpodcast.com Thanks, Bill! Enjoy the episode.
Set the dials of the Wayback Machine for 1973 because the National Lampoon Radio Hour is on the air. In the early 1970s the NatLamp was at the top of the magazine world with content that was outrageous, satirical, and rendered with loving detail. To expand their empire, the 'Poon hired Michael O'Donoghue to create and produce an audio version. With studios located in the Lampoon headquarters in New York, the show featured many writers and performers who would soon go on to create Saturday Night Live and SCTV. The whole thing eventually collapsed because of high production costs and low interest from national sponsored worried about the show's sometimes caustic content. A few attempted reboots have come and gone, but the original is still out there on the internet if you want a taste of the real deal. As always, find extra cuts below and thanks for sharing our shows! Want more National Lampoon Radio Hour? Perhaps the most played Lampoon cut features Christopher Guest and Bill Murray in Mr. Roberts -- a spot on parody of Mr. Rogers.https://youtu.be/mLxGiXMEbEM?si=s5w5cjXTYl4MbUnz When the Radio Hour debuted it was right smack in the middle of the Watergate scandal. Here's Chevy Chase with the Lampoon's take. https://youtu.be/QvyHl3zMOlQ?si=Fm6ZO__Dns2jhWQV Genre spoofs were big with the Lampoon and this one skewers the then-common ads offering to teach you a valuable skill in just ten days. https://youtu.be/XDg7OI9q6LU?si=_EHMegF6r54JMTix
Welcome to the Instant Trivia podcast episode 1213, where we ask the best trivia on the Internet. Round 1. Category: It Happened In The 20Th Century 1: On May 18, 1954 The New York Times headlined, "High Court Bans School" this divisive practice. segregation. 2: In 1981 Ananda Chakrabarty received a patent for a life form made of just 1 this. a cell. 3: In May 1940 he became prime minister and began inspiring the British people. Churchill. 4: John, Paul, George and Ringo arrived in the U.S., bringing this 11-letter contagion. Beatlemania. 5: In 1949 mainland China became a Communist state with this man as its leader. Mao Zedong. Round 2. Category: He'S The Coach 1: UCLA Men's Basketball, 1949-1975. John Wooden. 2: Indiana Pacers, 1997-2000. Larry Bird. 3: Green Bay Packers, 1959-1967. Vince Lombardi. 4: University of Nebraska Football, 1973-1997. Tom Osborne. 5: Chicago Bears, 1920-1967 (with a few breaks). George Halas. Round 3. Category: Playing Card Rhyme Time 1: A cruel royal female. Mean queen. 2: A fire iron used to prod a jester. Joker poker. 3: Building extension for a monarch. King wing. 4: Tautless knave. Slack jack. 5: Dental appliances for a pair of bullets. Aces' braces. Round 4. Category: The Harvard Lampoon 1: Now a fixture as a late-night TV talk show host, in the 1980s, this very tall redhead was a two-year president of the "Harvard Lampoon". Conan O'Brien. 2: The style and irreverence of "Harvard Lampoon" had a huge impact in the '70s when alums Doug Kenney and Henry Beard found "National Lampoon" and Doug co-wrote this very popular college comedy film. Animal House. 3: Lisa Henson was the "Lampoons's" first female president, and she helped her dad Jim write the speech that was given by this Muppet during the Harvard commencement season in 1982. Kermit. 4: Ex-Lampooner Jim Downey not only wrote for "Saturday Night Live" longer than anybody else, he also created this perennial list read by David Letterman. the Top 10 List. 5: Writers and performers who've gone from the "Lampoon" to "Saturday Night Live" include this young fellow who co-hosts "Weekend Update" with Michael Che. Colin Jost. Round 5. Category: The Deans List 1: Dean Moriarty is a memorable character in this Beat Generation novel. On the Road. 2: Much of this Rat Pack crooner's hard-drinking persona may have been just for the cameras. Dean Martin. 3: 1955's "East of Eden" launched the iconic status of this actor. James Dean. 4: Your parents might know Dean Cain as Superman, but you probably know him as Jeremiah Danvers, father of this other DC hero. Supergirl. 5: In the 1930s this "lightheaded" pitcher led the National League in strikeouts 4 times. Dizzy Dean. Thanks for listening! Come back tomorrow for more exciting trivia!Special thanks to https://blog.feedspot.com/trivia_podcasts/ AI Voices used
Emmy Award-winning creator Jon Beckerman dives deep into the comedic whirlpool of television writing and production. Beckerman shares a buffet of behind-the-scenes stories from his early days at the Late Show with David Letterman to his latest venture, the side-splitting Amazon Freevee series, "Dinner with the Parents." Highlights Jon Beckerman's Roots in Comedy: From academic geek to comedy powerhouse, Jon recounts his serendipitous journey through Harvard's Lampoon, where his comedic path was forged alongside comedy legends. Letterman Days: Peek behind the curtain of the iconic Late Show as Jon reminisces about crafting monologues, navigating celebrity sketches, and his unexpected on-air moments with legends like Bill Murray and David Letterman himself. Creating "Ed" and "Dinner with the Parents": Jon details the creative process and challenges of bringing characters and stories to life in "Ed," and how a British sitcom-inspired his latest project, adapting it to resonate with American audiences with his unique comedic flair. On Writing and Directing: Gain insights into Jon's approach to writing comedy that connects with viewers and how he directs episodes to keep the humor flowing and the audience engaged. Whether you're a sitcom aficionado or just love a good laugh, this episode offers a masterclass in humor, creativity, and the sheer unpredictability of television production. You're going to love my conversation with Jon Beckerman IMDB Watch Dinner with the Parents Follow Jeff Dwoskin (host): Jeff Dwoskin on Twitter The Jeff Dwoskin Show podcast on Twitter Podcast website Podcast on Instagram Join my mailing list Subscribe to my Youtube channel (watch Crossing the Streams!) Yes, the show used to be called Live from Detroit: The Jeff Dwoskin Show Ways to support the show: Buy me a coffee (support the show) TeePublic Store: Classic Conversations merch and more! Love the books I talk about on the show? Here is my Amazon store to shop.
Growing up in Staten Island, Colin Jost hung around many of his mother's colleagues at the New York City Fire Department. He quickly gained an appreciation for the power of laughter, even in grave circumstances. By middle school, Jost was doing David Letterman impressions for classmates, and less than a decade later, while enrolled at Harvard, he rose to the top of the masthead of the school's humor magazine, the Lampoon. Suffice it to say, Jost's talents as a writer and performer were clear to all, and he routinely demonstrates this aptitude on S.N.L.'s Weekend Update, which he has co-hosted with Michael Che since 2014. On this week's episode of Table for Two, Jost joins host and AIR MAIL contributor Bruce Bozzi to reflect on his early days as a comedy writer, the comedians and actors who influenced him, and the joys of raising his son, Cosmo, alongside his wife, Scarlett Johansson.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
The Blues Brothers: An Epic Friendship, the Rise of Improv, and the Making of an American Film Classic (Grove Atlantic, 2024) tells the story of the epic friendship between John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd, the golden era of improv, and the making of a comedic film classic that helped shape our popular culture. “They're not going to catch us,” Dan Aykroyd, as Elwood Blues, tells his brother Jake, played by John Belushi. “We're on a mission from God.” So opens the musical action comedy The Blues Brothers, which hit theaters on June 20, 1980. Their scripted mission was to save a local Chicago orphanage. But Aykroyd, who conceived and wrote much of the film, had a greater mission: to honor the then-seemingly forgotten tradition of rhythm and blues, some of whose greatest artists—Aretha Franklin, James Brown, John Lee Hooker, Cab Calloway, Ray Charles—made the film as unforgettable as its wild car chases. Much delayed and vastly over budget, beset by mercurial and oft drugged-out stars, The Blues Brothers opened to outraged reviews. However, in the 44 years since, it has been acknowledged a classic: it has been inducted into the National Film Registry for its cultural significance, even declared a “Catholic classic” by the Church itself, and re-aired thousands of times on television to huge worldwide audiences. It is, undeniably, one of the most significant films of the twentieth century. The story behind any classic is rich; the saga behind The Blues Brothers, as Daniel de Visé reveals, is epic, encompassing the colorful childhoods of Belushi and Aykroyd; the comedic revolution sparked by Harvard's Lampoon and Chicago's Second City; the birth and anecdote-rich, drug-filled early years of Saturday Night Live, where the Blues Brothers were born as an act amidst turmoil and rivalry; and, of course, the indelible behind-the-scenes narrative of how the film was made, scene by memorable scene. Based on original research and dozens of interviews probing the memories of principals from director John Landis and producer Bob Weiss to Aykroyd himself, The Blues Brothers illuminates an American masterpiece while vividly portraying the creative geniuses behind modern comedy. Daniel de Visé is an author and journalist. A graduate of Wesleyan and Northwestern universities, he worked at the The Washington Post, the Miami Herald and three other newspapers in a 23-year career. He shared a 2001 team Pulitzer Prize and garnered more than two dozen other national and regional journalism awards. His investigative reporting twice led to the release of wrongly convicted men from life terms in prison. His first book, I Forgot To Remember (with Su Meck, Simon & Schuster, 2014), began as a front-page article de Visé wrote for the Washington Post in 2011. His second book, Andy & Don (Simon & Schuster, 2015), began as a journalistic exploration into the storied career of his late brother-in-law, famed actor Don Knotts. His third book, The Comeback (Grove Atlantic, 2018), rekindles a childhood obsession with professional cycling. Daniel is married to Sophie Yarborough, a senior editor at The Washington Post. They and their children live outside Washington D.C. Daniel Moran earned his B.A. and M.A. in English from Rutgers University and his Ph.D. in History from Drew University. The author of Creating Flannery O'Connor: Her Critics, Her Publishers, Her Readers and articles on G. K. Chesterton and John Ford, he teaches research and writing at Rutgers and co-hosts the podcast Fifteen-Minute Film Fanatics, found here on the New Books Network and on X. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network
The Blues Brothers: An Epic Friendship, the Rise of Improv, and the Making of an American Film Classic (Grove Atlantic, 2024) tells the story of the epic friendship between John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd, the golden era of improv, and the making of a comedic film classic that helped shape our popular culture. “They're not going to catch us,” Dan Aykroyd, as Elwood Blues, tells his brother Jake, played by John Belushi. “We're on a mission from God.” So opens the musical action comedy The Blues Brothers, which hit theaters on June 20, 1980. Their scripted mission was to save a local Chicago orphanage. But Aykroyd, who conceived and wrote much of the film, had a greater mission: to honor the then-seemingly forgotten tradition of rhythm and blues, some of whose greatest artists—Aretha Franklin, James Brown, John Lee Hooker, Cab Calloway, Ray Charles—made the film as unforgettable as its wild car chases. Much delayed and vastly over budget, beset by mercurial and oft drugged-out stars, The Blues Brothers opened to outraged reviews. However, in the 44 years since, it has been acknowledged a classic: it has been inducted into the National Film Registry for its cultural significance, even declared a “Catholic classic” by the Church itself, and re-aired thousands of times on television to huge worldwide audiences. It is, undeniably, one of the most significant films of the twentieth century. The story behind any classic is rich; the saga behind The Blues Brothers, as Daniel de Visé reveals, is epic, encompassing the colorful childhoods of Belushi and Aykroyd; the comedic revolution sparked by Harvard's Lampoon and Chicago's Second City; the birth and anecdote-rich, drug-filled early years of Saturday Night Live, where the Blues Brothers were born as an act amidst turmoil and rivalry; and, of course, the indelible behind-the-scenes narrative of how the film was made, scene by memorable scene. Based on original research and dozens of interviews probing the memories of principals from director John Landis and producer Bob Weiss to Aykroyd himself, The Blues Brothers illuminates an American masterpiece while vividly portraying the creative geniuses behind modern comedy. Daniel de Visé is an author and journalist. A graduate of Wesleyan and Northwestern universities, he worked at the The Washington Post, the Miami Herald and three other newspapers in a 23-year career. He shared a 2001 team Pulitzer Prize and garnered more than two dozen other national and regional journalism awards. His investigative reporting twice led to the release of wrongly convicted men from life terms in prison. His first book, I Forgot To Remember (with Su Meck, Simon & Schuster, 2014), began as a front-page article de Visé wrote for the Washington Post in 2011. His second book, Andy & Don (Simon & Schuster, 2015), began as a journalistic exploration into the storied career of his late brother-in-law, famed actor Don Knotts. His third book, The Comeback (Grove Atlantic, 2018), rekindles a childhood obsession with professional cycling. Daniel is married to Sophie Yarborough, a senior editor at The Washington Post. They and their children live outside Washington D.C. Daniel Moran earned his B.A. and M.A. in English from Rutgers University and his Ph.D. in History from Drew University. The author of Creating Flannery O'Connor: Her Critics, Her Publishers, Her Readers and articles on G. K. Chesterton and John Ford, he teaches research and writing at Rutgers and co-hosts the podcast Fifteen-Minute Film Fanatics, found here on the New Books Network and on X. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/history
The Blues Brothers: An Epic Friendship, the Rise of Improv, and the Making of an American Film Classic (Grove Atlantic, 2024) tells the story of the epic friendship between John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd, the golden era of improv, and the making of a comedic film classic that helped shape our popular culture. “They're not going to catch us,” Dan Aykroyd, as Elwood Blues, tells his brother Jake, played by John Belushi. “We're on a mission from God.” So opens the musical action comedy The Blues Brothers, which hit theaters on June 20, 1980. Their scripted mission was to save a local Chicago orphanage. But Aykroyd, who conceived and wrote much of the film, had a greater mission: to honor the then-seemingly forgotten tradition of rhythm and blues, some of whose greatest artists—Aretha Franklin, James Brown, John Lee Hooker, Cab Calloway, Ray Charles—made the film as unforgettable as its wild car chases. Much delayed and vastly over budget, beset by mercurial and oft drugged-out stars, The Blues Brothers opened to outraged reviews. However, in the 44 years since, it has been acknowledged a classic: it has been inducted into the National Film Registry for its cultural significance, even declared a “Catholic classic” by the Church itself, and re-aired thousands of times on television to huge worldwide audiences. It is, undeniably, one of the most significant films of the twentieth century. The story behind any classic is rich; the saga behind The Blues Brothers, as Daniel de Visé reveals, is epic, encompassing the colorful childhoods of Belushi and Aykroyd; the comedic revolution sparked by Harvard's Lampoon and Chicago's Second City; the birth and anecdote-rich, drug-filled early years of Saturday Night Live, where the Blues Brothers were born as an act amidst turmoil and rivalry; and, of course, the indelible behind-the-scenes narrative of how the film was made, scene by memorable scene. Based on original research and dozens of interviews probing the memories of principals from director John Landis and producer Bob Weiss to Aykroyd himself, The Blues Brothers illuminates an American masterpiece while vividly portraying the creative geniuses behind modern comedy. Daniel de Visé is an author and journalist. A graduate of Wesleyan and Northwestern universities, he worked at the The Washington Post, the Miami Herald and three other newspapers in a 23-year career. He shared a 2001 team Pulitzer Prize and garnered more than two dozen other national and regional journalism awards. His investigative reporting twice led to the release of wrongly convicted men from life terms in prison. His first book, I Forgot To Remember (with Su Meck, Simon & Schuster, 2014), began as a front-page article de Visé wrote for the Washington Post in 2011. His second book, Andy & Don (Simon & Schuster, 2015), began as a journalistic exploration into the storied career of his late brother-in-law, famed actor Don Knotts. His third book, The Comeback (Grove Atlantic, 2018), rekindles a childhood obsession with professional cycling. Daniel is married to Sophie Yarborough, a senior editor at The Washington Post. They and their children live outside Washington D.C. Daniel Moran earned his B.A. and M.A. in English from Rutgers University and his Ph.D. in History from Drew University. The author of Creating Flannery O'Connor: Her Critics, Her Publishers, Her Readers and articles on G. K. Chesterton and John Ford, he teaches research and writing at Rutgers and co-hosts the podcast Fifteen-Minute Film Fanatics, found here on the New Books Network and on X. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/film
The Blues Brothers: An Epic Friendship, the Rise of Improv, and the Making of an American Film Classic (Grove Atlantic, 2024) tells the story of the epic friendship between John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd, the golden era of improv, and the making of a comedic film classic that helped shape our popular culture. “They're not going to catch us,” Dan Aykroyd, as Elwood Blues, tells his brother Jake, played by John Belushi. “We're on a mission from God.” So opens the musical action comedy The Blues Brothers, which hit theaters on June 20, 1980. Their scripted mission was to save a local Chicago orphanage. But Aykroyd, who conceived and wrote much of the film, had a greater mission: to honor the then-seemingly forgotten tradition of rhythm and blues, some of whose greatest artists—Aretha Franklin, James Brown, John Lee Hooker, Cab Calloway, Ray Charles—made the film as unforgettable as its wild car chases. Much delayed and vastly over budget, beset by mercurial and oft drugged-out stars, The Blues Brothers opened to outraged reviews. However, in the 44 years since, it has been acknowledged a classic: it has been inducted into the National Film Registry for its cultural significance, even declared a “Catholic classic” by the Church itself, and re-aired thousands of times on television to huge worldwide audiences. It is, undeniably, one of the most significant films of the twentieth century. The story behind any classic is rich; the saga behind The Blues Brothers, as Daniel de Visé reveals, is epic, encompassing the colorful childhoods of Belushi and Aykroyd; the comedic revolution sparked by Harvard's Lampoon and Chicago's Second City; the birth and anecdote-rich, drug-filled early years of Saturday Night Live, where the Blues Brothers were born as an act amidst turmoil and rivalry; and, of course, the indelible behind-the-scenes narrative of how the film was made, scene by memorable scene. Based on original research and dozens of interviews probing the memories of principals from director John Landis and producer Bob Weiss to Aykroyd himself, The Blues Brothers illuminates an American masterpiece while vividly portraying the creative geniuses behind modern comedy. Daniel de Visé is an author and journalist. A graduate of Wesleyan and Northwestern universities, he worked at the The Washington Post, the Miami Herald and three other newspapers in a 23-year career. He shared a 2001 team Pulitzer Prize and garnered more than two dozen other national and regional journalism awards. His investigative reporting twice led to the release of wrongly convicted men from life terms in prison. His first book, I Forgot To Remember (with Su Meck, Simon & Schuster, 2014), began as a front-page article de Visé wrote for the Washington Post in 2011. His second book, Andy & Don (Simon & Schuster, 2015), began as a journalistic exploration into the storied career of his late brother-in-law, famed actor Don Knotts. His third book, The Comeback (Grove Atlantic, 2018), rekindles a childhood obsession with professional cycling. Daniel is married to Sophie Yarborough, a senior editor at The Washington Post. They and their children live outside Washington D.C. Daniel Moran earned his B.A. and M.A. in English from Rutgers University and his Ph.D. in History from Drew University. The author of Creating Flannery O'Connor: Her Critics, Her Publishers, Her Readers and articles on G. K. Chesterton and John Ford, he teaches research and writing at Rutgers and co-hosts the podcast Fifteen-Minute Film Fanatics, found here on the New Books Network and on X. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/performing-arts
The Blues Brothers: An Epic Friendship, the Rise of Improv, and the Making of an American Film Classic (Grove Atlantic, 2024) tells the story of the epic friendship between John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd, the golden era of improv, and the making of a comedic film classic that helped shape our popular culture. “They're not going to catch us,” Dan Aykroyd, as Elwood Blues, tells his brother Jake, played by John Belushi. “We're on a mission from God.” So opens the musical action comedy The Blues Brothers, which hit theaters on June 20, 1980. Their scripted mission was to save a local Chicago orphanage. But Aykroyd, who conceived and wrote much of the film, had a greater mission: to honor the then-seemingly forgotten tradition of rhythm and blues, some of whose greatest artists—Aretha Franklin, James Brown, John Lee Hooker, Cab Calloway, Ray Charles—made the film as unforgettable as its wild car chases. Much delayed and vastly over budget, beset by mercurial and oft drugged-out stars, The Blues Brothers opened to outraged reviews. However, in the 44 years since, it has been acknowledged a classic: it has been inducted into the National Film Registry for its cultural significance, even declared a “Catholic classic” by the Church itself, and re-aired thousands of times on television to huge worldwide audiences. It is, undeniably, one of the most significant films of the twentieth century. The story behind any classic is rich; the saga behind The Blues Brothers, as Daniel de Visé reveals, is epic, encompassing the colorful childhoods of Belushi and Aykroyd; the comedic revolution sparked by Harvard's Lampoon and Chicago's Second City; the birth and anecdote-rich, drug-filled early years of Saturday Night Live, where the Blues Brothers were born as an act amidst turmoil and rivalry; and, of course, the indelible behind-the-scenes narrative of how the film was made, scene by memorable scene. Based on original research and dozens of interviews probing the memories of principals from director John Landis and producer Bob Weiss to Aykroyd himself, The Blues Brothers illuminates an American masterpiece while vividly portraying the creative geniuses behind modern comedy. Daniel de Visé is an author and journalist. A graduate of Wesleyan and Northwestern universities, he worked at the The Washington Post, the Miami Herald and three other newspapers in a 23-year career. He shared a 2001 team Pulitzer Prize and garnered more than two dozen other national and regional journalism awards. His investigative reporting twice led to the release of wrongly convicted men from life terms in prison. His first book, I Forgot To Remember (with Su Meck, Simon & Schuster, 2014), began as a front-page article de Visé wrote for the Washington Post in 2011. His second book, Andy & Don (Simon & Schuster, 2015), began as a journalistic exploration into the storied career of his late brother-in-law, famed actor Don Knotts. His third book, The Comeback (Grove Atlantic, 2018), rekindles a childhood obsession with professional cycling. Daniel is married to Sophie Yarborough, a senior editor at The Washington Post. They and their children live outside Washington D.C. Daniel Moran earned his B.A. and M.A. in English from Rutgers University and his Ph.D. in History from Drew University. The author of Creating Flannery O'Connor: Her Critics, Her Publishers, Her Readers and articles on G. K. Chesterton and John Ford, he teaches research and writing at Rutgers and co-hosts the podcast Fifteen-Minute Film Fanatics, found here on the New Books Network and on X. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/american-studies
The Blues Brothers: An Epic Friendship, the Rise of Improv, and the Making of an American Film Classic (Grove Atlantic, 2024) tells the story of the epic friendship between John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd, the golden era of improv, and the making of a comedic film classic that helped shape our popular culture. “They're not going to catch us,” Dan Aykroyd, as Elwood Blues, tells his brother Jake, played by John Belushi. “We're on a mission from God.” So opens the musical action comedy The Blues Brothers, which hit theaters on June 20, 1980. Their scripted mission was to save a local Chicago orphanage. But Aykroyd, who conceived and wrote much of the film, had a greater mission: to honor the then-seemingly forgotten tradition of rhythm and blues, some of whose greatest artists—Aretha Franklin, James Brown, John Lee Hooker, Cab Calloway, Ray Charles—made the film as unforgettable as its wild car chases. Much delayed and vastly over budget, beset by mercurial and oft drugged-out stars, The Blues Brothers opened to outraged reviews. However, in the 44 years since, it has been acknowledged a classic: it has been inducted into the National Film Registry for its cultural significance, even declared a “Catholic classic” by the Church itself, and re-aired thousands of times on television to huge worldwide audiences. It is, undeniably, one of the most significant films of the twentieth century. The story behind any classic is rich; the saga behind The Blues Brothers, as Daniel de Visé reveals, is epic, encompassing the colorful childhoods of Belushi and Aykroyd; the comedic revolution sparked by Harvard's Lampoon and Chicago's Second City; the birth and anecdote-rich, drug-filled early years of Saturday Night Live, where the Blues Brothers were born as an act amidst turmoil and rivalry; and, of course, the indelible behind-the-scenes narrative of how the film was made, scene by memorable scene. Based on original research and dozens of interviews probing the memories of principals from director John Landis and producer Bob Weiss to Aykroyd himself, The Blues Brothers illuminates an American masterpiece while vividly portraying the creative geniuses behind modern comedy. Daniel de Visé is an author and journalist. A graduate of Wesleyan and Northwestern universities, he worked at the The Washington Post, the Miami Herald and three other newspapers in a 23-year career. He shared a 2001 team Pulitzer Prize and garnered more than two dozen other national and regional journalism awards. His investigative reporting twice led to the release of wrongly convicted men from life terms in prison. His first book, I Forgot To Remember (with Su Meck, Simon & Schuster, 2014), began as a front-page article de Visé wrote for the Washington Post in 2011. His second book, Andy & Don (Simon & Schuster, 2015), began as a journalistic exploration into the storied career of his late brother-in-law, famed actor Don Knotts. His third book, The Comeback (Grove Atlantic, 2018), rekindles a childhood obsession with professional cycling. Daniel is married to Sophie Yarborough, a senior editor at The Washington Post. They and their children live outside Washington D.C. Daniel Moran earned his B.A. and M.A. in English from Rutgers University and his Ph.D. in History from Drew University. The author of Creating Flannery O'Connor: Her Critics, Her Publishers, Her Readers and articles on G. K. Chesterton and John Ford, he teaches research and writing at Rutgers and co-hosts the podcast Fifteen-Minute Film Fanatics, found here on the New Books Network and on X. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/popular-culture
The story of the epic friendship between John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd, the golden era of improv, and the making of a comedic film classic that helped shape our popular culture. "They're not going to catch us," Dan Aykroyd as Elwood Blues tells his brother Jake, played by John Belushi. "We're on a mission from God." So opens the musical action comedy The Blues Brothers, which hit theatres on June 20, 1980. Their scripted mission was to save a local Chicago orphanage; but Aykroyd, who conceived and wrote the film, had a greater mission: to honor the then-seemingly forgotten tradition of rhythm and blues, some of whose greatest artists-Aretha Franklin, James Brown, John Lee Hooker, Cab Calloway, Ray Charles-made the film as unforgettable as its wild car chases. Late and vastly over budget, beset by mercurial and oft drugged-out stars, The Blues Brothers opened to tepid reviews at best. However, in the 44 years since it has been acknowledged a classic: inducted into the National Film Registry for its cultural significance; even declared a "Catholic classic" by the Church itself; and re-aired thousands of times on television to huge worldwide audiences. It is, undeniably, one of the most significant films of the 20th century. The story behind any classic is rich; the saga behind The Blues Brothers, as Daniel de Visé reveals, is epic, encompassing the colorful childhoods of Belushi and Aykroyd; the comedic revolution sparked by Harvard's Lampoon and Chicago's Second City; the birth and anecdote-rich, drug-filled early years of Saturday Night Live, where the Blues Brothers were born as an act amidst turmoil and rivalry; and of course the indelible behind-the-scenes narrative of how the film was made, scene by memorable scene. Based on original research and dozens of interviews probing the memories of principals from director John Landis and producer Bob Weiss to SNL creator Lorne Michaels and Aykroyd himself, The Blues Brothers vividly portrays the creative geniuses behind modern comedy.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/arroe-collins-unplugged-totally-uncut--994165/support.
The story of the epic friendship between John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd, the golden era of improv, and the making of a comedic film classic that helped shape our popular culture. "They're not going to catch us," Dan Aykroyd as Elwood Blues tells his brother Jake, played by John Belushi. "We're on a mission from God." So opens the musical action comedy The Blues Brothers, which hit theatres on June 20, 1980. Their scripted mission was to save a local Chicago orphanage; but Aykroyd, who conceived and wrote the film, had a greater mission: to honor the then-seemingly forgotten tradition of rhythm and blues, some of whose greatest artists-Aretha Franklin, James Brown, John Lee Hooker, Cab Calloway, Ray Charles-made the film as unforgettable as its wild car chases. Late and vastly over budget, beset by mercurial and oft drugged-out stars, The Blues Brothers opened to tepid reviews at best. However, in the 44 years since it has been acknowledged a classic: inducted into the National Film Registry for its cultural significance; even declared a "Catholic classic" by the Church itself; and re-aired thousands of times on television to huge worldwide audiences. It is, undeniably, one of the most significant films of the 20th century. The story behind any classic is rich; the saga behind The Blues Brothers, as Daniel de Visé reveals, is epic, encompassing the colorful childhoods of Belushi and Aykroyd; the comedic revolution sparked by Harvard's Lampoon and Chicago's Second City; the birth and anecdote-rich, drug-filled early years of Saturday Night Live, where the Blues Brothers were born as an act amidst turmoil and rivalry; and of course the indelible behind-the-scenes narrative of how the film was made, scene by memorable scene. Based on original research and dozens of interviews probing the memories of principals from director John Landis and producer Bob Weiss to SNL creator Lorne Michaels and Aykroyd himself, The Blues Brothers vividly portrays the creative geniuses behind modern comedy.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/arroe-collins-like-it-s-live--4113802/support.
A comedic take on a murder mystery had so much potential, but unfortunately, the creators of SEE HOW THEY RUN wasted it with what can only be described as lazy writing and lazy editing. This is what happens when the writers of murder mysteries aren't also superfans of the genre, or when they try to cut corners. This week, Valerie discusses the unfortunate skinny wrist reveal, and Melanie walks us through all the clues and red herrings. Do you agree with their analysis?"If you're serious about getting published, be honest with yourself about the gaps in your knowledge. We all have them. It's okay." Valerie FrancisRelated Story Nerd EpisodesCrooked House (Season 9, Episode 901)Death on the Nile (Season 2, Episode 207)Knives Out (Season 1, Episode 107) For information about Valerie's upcoming webinars, visit: www.valeriefrancis.ca/webinarsFor access to writing templates and worksheets, and more than 70 hours of training (all for free), subscribe to Valerie's Inner Circle: www.valeriefrancis.ca/innercircleTo learn to read like a writer, visit Melanie's website: www.melaniehill.com.auFollow Valerie on X, Instagram and Threads @valerie_francisFollow Melanie on X, Instagram and Facebook @MelanieHillAuthor
Merriam-Webster's Word of the Day for February 21, 2024 is: lampoon • lam-POON • verb To lampoon someone or something is to ridicule that person or thing, especially through the use of harsh satire. // The exhibit chronicles the long history of lampooning public figures in cartoons. See the entry > Examples: "'An exciting element of this to me was the opportunity to completely lampoon entitled Hollywood celebrities. Those celebrities out there who think that acting is the most important vocation in the world and that there's not an interesting conversation unless it's about one of their future projects,' [Jury Duty actor, James] Marsden said with a laugh and without naming names." — Rosy Cordero, Deadline, 20 Apr. 2023 Did you know? Lampoon can be a noun or a verb. The noun lampoon (meaning "satire" or, specifically, "a harsh satire usually directed against an individual") was first used in English in the 17th century and may be familiar from the names of humor publications such as The Harvard Lampoon and its now-defunct spinoff National Lampoon. Both the noun and the verb come from the French word lampon, which likely originated from lampons, a form of the verb lamper, meaning "to drink to the bottom." So what is the connection? Lampons! (meaning "Let us guzzle!"—that is, drink greedily) was a frequent refrain in 17th-century French satirical poems.
The great cartoonist and humorist Ed Subitzky gets his long-delayed due with the new collection, POOR HELPLESS COMICS! (New York Review Comics). We talk about Ed's amazing career at National Lampoon, how he developed his "can't draw' style after taking a cartooning class with RO Blechman & Charles Blackman A DOZEN TIMES, how the Rapidograph became his Excalibur, and why this collection includes some of his favorite prose pieces alongside all the comics. We get into how he began experimenting with the form & structure of comics, his lifelong curiosities for science and philosophy and how he wound up getting published in the Journal of Consciousness Studies, his longtime career writing direct marketing pieces, and how it took preparing this book and looking back at his work for him to realize his comics were really funny. • More info at our site • Support The Virtual Memories Show via Patreon or Paypal and via our e-newsletter
Former Letterman head writer John Beckerman joins the gang to talk Dave, the Lampoon, and growing up artsy in Pittsburgh. Goldy gets a boombox. Alec can't get a “haha”. JC chimes in on the importance of creating good memories.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Is "National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation" the most quotable movie of the '80s? Is "Christmas Vacation" the best holiday movie of our decade? Does it stand the test of time? We examine these pressing questions and more in this week's holiday podcast. The Stuck in the '80s podcast is sponsored by The 80s Cruise. Join all your '80s friends on the Royal Caribbean Mariner of the Seas on Feb. 29 to March 7 for a weeklong trip back to the '80s. The lineup includes: 38 Special, Air Supply, The English Beat, Soft Cell, Debbie Gibson, Sebastian Bach, Steve Pearcy of Ratt, Ray Parker Jr., Sheena Easton, Wang Chung, Midnight Star, Animotion, Real Life, Escape Club, When in Rome UK, Marky Ramone's Blitzkrieg and more. Original MTV veejays Alan Hunter and Mark Goodman will be there to host along with Downtown Julie Brown. Listen to the show to get our promo code for $200 of cabin credit for first-time guests. The 2024 cruise is sold out but you can still join the wait list and make it! Our podcast is listener-supported via Patreon. Members get special swag and invitations to patron-only Zoom happy hours with the hosts of the podcast. Find out more at our official Patreon page. The Stuck in the '80s podcast is hosted by creator Steve Spears and Brad Williams. Find out more about the show, celebrating its 18th year in 2023, at sit80s.com.
"Enterprise" has decided to have an arc, and it's about trying to get to Risa! No, really. But there's some hiccups on the way and even more once they get there! First up: Data's Mom is an inspiration to T'Pol but uh-oh she might be bad in "Fallen Hero". After that, Mr. Krabs wants Archer's help against tyranny in "Desert Crossing". Finally, almost everyone's vacation goes awry in "Two Days and Two Nights"! Also this week: guest stars, bad governments, and Geordi La Forge! [timestamps: Hero: 01:34; Crossing: 25:23; Days; 45:56; Geordi: 1:17:39] [grab a Coco-no-no and settle in to read about Geordie: https://www.tumblr.com/sshbpodcast/735986737078288384/character-spotlight-geordi-la-forge?source=share]
Musique Mécanique par le Théâtre Électrique ::"Life on Mars" by David Bowie:: Voix AI Jun
He's Chevy Chase. . .and you're not! From early work with the National Lampoon Radio Hour to his time as the first anchor of SNL's Weekend Update, to a varied (and variable) movie career, Chevy Chase has blended snark and slapstick to the delight of fans. Films such as Fletch, National Lampoon's Vacation, and Caddyshack were box office hits while other projects such as a Fox late night show were bombs. And there were many stories of Chevy and his coworkers scrapping (sometimes literally) along the way. So fans were surprised when Chevy reemerged as Pierce Hawthorne in the NBC sitcom Community. That didn't end well either, but it was a welcome callback to the time when we all stayed up late waiting for the words "Live from New York, It's Saturday Night!" As always find extra clips below and thanks for sharing our shows! Want more Chevy? Chevy's tenure at Saturday Night Live was stormy, but maybe that was inevitable as he became the breakout star of the first season with his pratfall filled opens and his Weekend Update anchor gig. Here's Chevy with one of his most notorious impressions -- that of perpetually clumsy President Gerald Ford. https://youtu.be/_bvxZgCryUE?si=nYQ8kyW-I4log8Nh Chevy's first two films were rom-coms which confused his fans who were expecting sharper edged comedy. That came in 1980 courtesy of Caddyshack, a Lampoon production that included great work from Bill Murray, Rodney Dangerfield, and Ted Knight. All together now -- Be The Ball! https://youtu.be/I3akC_INsFc?si=iY_iB8Msu6xrNUBk Chevy pretty much fell off the radar in the early 2000s, so it was a surprise at the end of the decade when he was cast as older community college student Pierce Hawthorne in NBC's Community and gained a new generation of fans. https://youtu.be/srIhtTPUJ_g?si=DcgRiITlDt1j7Rzi
Musique Mécanique par le Théâtre Électrique ::"Wrecking Ball" by Dr. Luke and Cirkut:: Voix AI Solaria
Musique Mécanique par le Théâtre Électrique ::"Wild World" by Cat Stevens:: Voix AI Jun
Musique Mécanique par le Théâtre Électrique ::"The Living Daylights" by a-haVoix AI Jun
Musique Mécanique par le Théâtre Électrique ::"Skyline Pigeon" by Elton John
Musique Mécanique par le Théâtre Électrique ::"Walk through the World with Me" by Leslie Bricusse
Musique Mécanique par le Théâtre Électrique ::"Diamonds Are Forever" by John Barry
Musique Mécanique par le Théâtre Électrique ::"Heroes" by David Bowie
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan A stately pleasure-dome decree: Where Alph, the sacred river, ran through caverns measureless to man down to a sunless sea... Musique Mécanique par le Théâtre Électrique ::"Xanadu" by Jeff Lynne
Musique Mécanique par le Théâtre Électrique ::"Sweet Thing" by David Bowie
Musique Mécanique par le Théâtre Électrique ::"The Voice" by Ultravox
Musique Mécanique par le Théâtre Électrique :: "Vienna" by Ultravox
Musique Mécanique par le Théâtre Électrique ::"Nevermore" by Queen
Musique Mécanique par le Théâtre Électrique ::"The Man with the Child in his Eyes" by Kate Bush
Musique Mécanique par le Théâtre Électrique ::"Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" by Elton John
Musique Mécanique par le Théâtre Électrique ::"Fill The World" by Leslie Bricusse
On this week's episode, I talk about my thoughts on going to Film School. We also talk about what some industry insiders think about this and whether or not it helps your career. Tune in for much more!Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:Because I don't want to make it harder for my, when I'm working in a writer's room, I don't want to make it harder for myself. I want to make it simple for me to think about these problems. So I don't want to make it harder. The job is hard enough as it is. Why make it harder? Make it simpler. You're telling a story, it's not heart surgery. You're listening to screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin. Hey everybody, welcome back. I'm Michael Jamin. I'm here with Phil Hudson and today we're answering the question, or at least we're asking it. Who knows if we'll have an answer? Should I go to film school? I get this one a lot. Let's talk about it. Well first of all, Phil, you might be better than me answering because you actually went to film school. Where'd you go?Phil Hudson:I went to Santa Fe University of Art and Design and I got a bachelor's, a fine arts in film story development from a film schoolMichael Jamin:There. How many years is that degree?Phil Hudson:It's a four year degree. Took me, oh myMichael Jamin:God,Phil Hudson:It's a bachelor's program. So it wasn't like master's an n, NYU U Master's in film. It was a bachelor's degree. And I remember when I was contemplating going, I had just really met you. I'd been working with your wife for a while and I asked you, should I go there or should I go to Hollywood? And you said, well, I don't know how valuable film school is outside of the network. You'll build there, but the work's here, so that's a personal choice. And then you said, well, at least you'll be able to teach college. And I said, well, I don't know if I will because it won't have a master's. And you're like, oh no.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well how much did that degree cost? Not necessarily you, but most people.Phil Hudson:Yeah, so the school was $30,000 a year, so it's $120,000 to get a four year degree. And I think at the time the average student would take about five years to get a bachelor's degree. So it actually, it would be $150,000 forMichael Jamin:That degree. I just Googled U S C film school and it's 53,000 a year. And I dunno if it's two or three years, but either way it's enough to give you heart palpitations.Phil Hudson:To put this into perspective, my brother, he's a lawyer, went to law school in Idaho and he's a lawyer in Montana where he passed the bar and I think his degree cost him $120,000 to be a lawyer.Michael Jamin:To be a lawyer. And you can immediately start earning that back the minute you passed thePhil Hudson:Bar. Oh, he's making more money per hour than I am now. He went, I mean he really took his time and now he was scraping by living on student loans, building up debt to get through film school with a family. I mean he's building five to six billable hours per day at $200 an hour. He is making more in a day than I make as a PAMichael Jamin:On. Yeah, right. But film school, so should people go to film school? Here's the thing, you're going to graduate with a lot of debt and we don't know when or if you'll ever pay that off. As far as I can tell.Phil Hudson:I can be transparent on that too. I had a Robert Redford scholarship and a talent scholarship, so my cost all in, aside from what I paid, I have $40,000 in student loans from school and my school closed down. It doesn't exist anymore.Michael Jamin:So do you have to pay back your loan then? IPhil Hudson:Do.Michael Jamin:You do. Even though, who's it going to? They don't have school.Phil Hudson:The federal government loaned me the money and then paid the school. And that is something I can never get rid of. It's you can't file bankruptcy on it. It lives with you till death. You will always owe that money unless you pay it back. The other side of this is there is a way that I could challenge that and say, well, my school's gone because the school actually never sent me my diploma. So I walked, I have the itinerary, the photos, the whole thing, but I never got my diploma from the school. And there's a process to go get it through the parent organization laureate to go get that, but it's a bit of a pain in the butt. And they messed up my transcripts because I did that four year program in two and a half years. So I really expedited things. I saw them writing on the wall that it was going to shut down so I could challenge it and I could get that waived and then I would lose my degree. So I've wasted two and a half years, so it's not really worth fighting to me. I'd rather have the degree. So I've just got to find the time to go fight that other battle for you.Michael Jamin:Well, just so people know, I've worked in TV for a long time, 27 years, and most of the writers that I work, if you want to be a screenwriter, very, very few actually went to film school. I was at a party a couple weeks ago, a friend of mine who told me he went to film school and I've worked with him for many years. He's like, you went to film school. It just doesn't come up. And when you get hired for, no one's going to ask you to see your degree. No one caress what your G p A was in film school. No one caress if you went or you didn't go. All they care is can you put the words in the page? That comp compelled people to turn to the next page. And you don't need just the fact that you have a degree or even an M F A in creative writing or whatever. The degree is worthless. The knowledge that you gain might be worth something might depending on who's teaching it to you. And I think that is more dependent on not necessarily the school or the program, but who's teaching that semester, who did they get? Often these are adjuncts and sometimes the adjuncts are working screenwriters who have a break in their schedule and want to teach. And you may find one that's great, but these adjuncts don't get paid a lot of money. So it's not what I mean a lot of money. I'm talking aboutPhil Hudson:A couple hundred bucks a month.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean the people I've talked to for a semester, maybe they make $4,000. It's not a lot of money, so they're not doing it for the money. And it's not a long-term career option when you're only making four grand for a semester. It's ridiculous. So it just depends on who they got that semester. You may get somebody great, you may not. So the knowledge you get may be fantastic, but again, it's a trade school you're getting, if you want to be a filmmaker, do you want to learn editing? Do you want to learn lighting or maybe, but as a screenwriter, no, you'll learn that in a million other things. There are way less expensive options, including our course that we offer that will teach you probably more in that area of specialty in the writing aspect. But I don't teach lightingPhil Hudson:And I decided to go because I was always a bit more interested in being an ourour, shooting, writing, directing, producing, editing, just kind of understanding the full gamut. I also have a bit of a control need. I need to be able to understand, and this comes from being in the tech space where I'd have engineers telling me something was going to take three weeks to get done, and then you learn how to code it and you realize they're just milking the clock. And so it comes from I'd like to understand the full process so I can better work within that process and hold people a little bit more accountable from a leadership perspective. But yeah, that's smart. Smart. And your note on film school is interesting too. On the writing side, no one cares on the production side. I've actually had conversations with people who roll their eyes when they hear you into film school.Michael Jamin:Yeah, really? People, producers, you meanPhil Hudson:Art directors?Michael Jamin:Why didPhil Hudson:They roll their every department?Michael Jamin:Why did they roll their eyes?Phil Hudson:I dealt with this when I was a missionary. When you're a missionary, you've been out doing this stuff for six months and then you're asked to train somebody new. That guy's coming from a place where they taught them how to be a missionary, but learning how to be a missionary versus being a missionary, just different things. Learning how to make a film and learning how to do a setup versus how a set actually runs. They're different things. The education may be correct, but the environment changes things. And so without fail, people who come in who said, I went to film school, think they know how to do it, think they know better than their superiors and it creates conflict because those people think they're better than the people teaching them.Michael Jamin:Phil, we didn't have this conversation off the air. So just so you know, I worked with a producer on one of my TV shows, the line producer, he was the producer and he said the same exact thing. He said that when he hires PAs for the show and most of the PAs come out of film school, whatever, a hundred thousand in debt, he goes, I have to untrain them. I have to unlearn them everything they learned because they think they know and it's just not how it works. And I was like, really? He goes, yep, that's how he goes. He doesn't prioritize hiring film students. He just as well hired someone who's not a film school student, have them learn on the job and learn instead of being winding up a hundred thousand in debt, they get paid. Although not a lot, but they get paid to learn.Phil Hudson:No, you get paid. I always described it, and I need this too, because when I moved to LA I was 31 and I'd already had a very successful corporate career and I could have pursued that career. When I was in college, I got prospected to go be a chief marketing officer at a bunch of startups in San Francisco paying way more money than I make now. And I turned 'em down because I was way more passionate about this thing I want to do in film. But I always described it to people like I knew, I knew I was going to get coffee for people. I knew it was a lot of yes sir, no, yes sir, no ma'am. However much you need, what can I do? Because it really feels to me like it's the apprenticeship model out here. This is a trade where you learn under someone else who has done it and you not only learn how to do it by the book, but you learn all the tips and tricks and hacks. They had to figure out that were passed down to them as a lineage from the people that taught them who learned it from the guy who was running around with the horses in 1908.Michael Jamin:So another thing that you might get from film school. So in other words, let's break it down. Okay, the diploma is not worth anything, but the knowledge you might get, especially in terms of screenwriting, might be valuable. Just totally depends, but you can spend a lot less on it. You might get context depending on where you go, depending on your graduating class. And if you are willing to stay in contact, if you stay in contact with your people, if you're friends with them, if you're not, those contacts are worth, your graduating class is worthless if you don't know the members of your graduating class. And like I said, it's an expensive venture and it didn't help you get, okay. So when you got your first PA job, did they ask if you went to film school?Phil Hudson:No, I think in fact when I interviewed it was probably one of those situations where I was disqualified because of it. Oh, really? Because in the interview it was for Brett and link's buddy system. You got me the interview, you told me I can get you the interview, I can't get you the job. You got her on the job. And I showed up and I disqualified myself by telling them I wanted to be a writer. That's really what disqualified me. And then, yeah, no one has asked me once, not a single person has ever asked me if I went to film school.Michael Jamin:And so I had toPhil Hudson:Bring it up once or twice out of defense because someone was trying to belittle. This is like I ran into a really toxic person in her season of Tacoma Tea recently, and that person was belittling me by trying to explain to me things and I had to say, yeah, I learned that in film school. And then she looked at me and was like, yeah, I went to film school too. I understand. I know how to calculate it. I get it.Michael Jamin:But there are things in terms of screenwriting that you did not learn in film school.Phil Hudson:Oh man. And this is no knock on anybody. You talk about good professors and bad professors. We had an adjunct professor named Ed Kamara, and he's a legend. He wrote Lady Hawk, which was a huge hit in the eighties. He wrote the Bruce Lee movie. He has actual credits under his belt, retired lives in Santa Fe, and he would come and teach one class per year. And it was intermediate storytelling and I got way more out of that class than I did any of my other writing classes because he was telling you, here's how you write a screenplay. And we had to write a screenplay to get credit in the class. But compare that to my first class and nothing against the professor, but we spent four weeks learning audio visual format for PSAs, and then we learned how to use Celtics because he wrote the book on Celtics and we had to buy the book on Celtics for his course.It was a lot of stuff. And then I had this really interesting moment we've talked about in the podcast, but this is a real thing that happened to me. He asked the room, we finally got into story and structure. He asked the room, what's the definition of a story? And I just perked up and I was like, I know this because it's literally the first thing you had taught me via an email. He asked me that question and I looked around the room and people raising their hands and people are getting it wrong. And I just said, it's a hero overcoming an obstacle to achieve a goal. And the teacher turned around and changed his slides because he didn't have that definition. So yeah, I've learned way more, I would say outside of film school, about screenwriting through you and the stuff you've taught me also from just sitting down and writing, the real benefit for me was that it forced me to write,Michael Jamin:But also you can build and if you want to talk about your graduating class since I brought it up, but you can build your community outside of, you don't need to go to film school to build a community of people, of like-minded people who want what you want, which is to become either filmmakers or screenwriter, whatever it is. But it's like you can build a community, especially online because you don't need to do that now. So much about the world has changed with the internet and social media so much. It's changed so rapidly that, but I think so many people are still stuck in the old model thinking, well no, this is how it has to be done, myself included as well. I sometimes feel that when it doesn't, the world is changing.Phil Hudson:We can talk about generative AI and all of those things because pretty steeped in those. I sent you a bunch of guides yesterday about how to do some content on chat G P T and stuff, but tool, like you said, technology has just changed things. MySpace was a thing when I was in high school and Facebook was brand new when I got off my mission in 2008, and I barely, I had to figure out how to use that, but YouTube wasn't a thing. I remember sitting in my first class in film school and one of the assignments was, I want you to write down on a piece of paper, who is the filmmaker that inspired you to be a filmmaker when you were like 12 years old? And then he said, if you were inspired by a YouTuber, come talk to me. I have a different assignment for you. And I was like, what? YouTube was invented in 2005. I graduated in oh four, right? It's just text change things. So I agree with you on that. But in terms of your network and growing a network, my network in my film school, I went to school with a bunch of really passionate people about film, are way more technically savvy than I am. Could make a picture out of a camera I can't even imagine because they just had access to better technology than I did. They were much younger than me,Michael Jamin:ButPhil Hudson:I've found most of 'em didn't understand story at all. And the ones who did, there's a small group of us who made it to la. Out of that group of people, there's like four of them still here. One is working at an agency, one is in the W G A and writes on Selena. She's amazing. You should go check out Selena Blank on her names Alexandra, but it'll come up to me. And then there's one guy who was an announcer, really put in a lot of effort making these happen. And now he's a head of creative development at a pretty well-known studio. That's it. That's really it. I've got a couple of friends who still live in la, but they're not doing anything in the industry writing related. They're doing the visual effects and things, but they all want to be writers, directors. That's what they did. But the group that I think I associate the most with is actually your group from the course.Michael Jamin:Yeah. You associate meaning making connections withPhil Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. I mean prior to that, obviously I know people on set. I need people on set. We trade scripts. We kind of have those things because working with people and then you learn, everybody wants to be a writer. Everybody wants to be a director. Not everybody. There are some people who are like, I love lighting and I love camera and that's what I want to do. But a lot of people want to be writers and directors. And so you can meet a lot of like-minded people that way. They're the events and things in LA that you can go to networking events. There's social media meetups now there's Zoom meetups with people. But your group, I want to highlight because the value of that group to me is these are people who've invested in themselves to learn from a professional who knows how to do it.And we are all sitting down in this group, and it's a group of people who are highly motivated. They're taking it very seriously. They understand the fundamentals the same way that we all do. And then now we're slowly lifting each other up to become better. And there's new people joining every month, and those people are jumping into this ecosystem, but very proactive. We trade notes with those people. The notes are way better. I mean, those are my peers. One comes into town and we meet up, we go pick it with him and Warner Brothers, he comes to my house, he eats food in my home. That's Dave Crossman we talk about all the time. But lots of people in the LA area that we meet up with and do those things. That's the networking that really matters.Michael Jamin:So just to be clear, I have a screenwriting course and that comes with a private Facebook group. That's what you're talking about. And what I see, it's interesting. I am a member of some public Facebook groups screenwriting, and I don't go there. I don't know why I'm in there, but I don't go there. They're dark, they're dark places. People are mean, they talk shit. They don't know what they're talking about. It is just toxic. But that's definitely not the sense in our group, which is very much more supportive, not, and not only that, we haven't even talked about this film, but someone, I think it was Crossman in the group, decided to, Hey, should we do a film, a screenwriting contest? FilmPhil Hudson:Festival. A filmMichael Jamin:Festival? And so I was like, that's fun. That's a good idea.Phil Hudson:You told them to do it on a podcast. You said, you were talking about on the podcast you said, and not crossword, but you said, you know what I think our group needs to do? They need to just do a thing where they can exhibit the stuff they're working on and then someone did it,Michael Jamin:Someone took the initiative to do it, and I'm all for it. I'm not involved in it, but I'm all for it. I'm like, that's a great idea. And it just helps. First of all, it raises everyone's profile in the group with other, amongst themselves, but also that'll spread. I mean, they do this and one of these things does well, if everyone agree on, Hey, this movie's really good, or the screenplays, I don't even know, is it a movie or is it a screenplay? It'sPhil Hudson:Short. It's produced stuff. So it's taking your content and then producing it as a short,Michael Jamin:Right?Phil Hudson:So Imagine Festival,Michael Jamin:Imagine the top three entrants. Everyone agrees, these are the three favorite that will have legs that people will talk about that they'll share that outside of the group. They'll say, I mean, I don't see a downside to this. All I see is upside. And I was, I was actually thinking about what stopped them from doing this two years ago. And the answer, and I came up with the answer and the answer was, one, someone felt like, well, this is a lot of work, which I get it. It's not a lot, but it's work to organize this. And then the second was probably, they're probably thinking, well, who am I to do this? Who am I to be the person? What am I? I'm just a person. Why should am I to say I'm capable? Well, why are you not capable? Who are you not to be the person you're just as good as anybody else? What's the problem? But it's overcoming that little mental barrier that you created for yourself thinking, who am I to make a film a contest? Well, you're you. That's who you are now. You're the guy, now you're the guy, the woman creating this contest and raising your profile in the process, which is only a good thing. So it's only good for the winners or the contestants. It's good for the people who are involved in doing this.Phil Hudson:And we've talked about it too, the proactiveness in that group of people, they have reading groups and that's booked out for six months where they know for every week who's reading these scripts. They're exchanging notes. They do pitch fest. They bring in people outside of the group, professionals that they know. They shared their network with you to hear you pitch things. Right? Wow. Yeah. It's nothing butMichael Jamin:Good for them. I mean, seriously, I'm not organizing this. They're being proactive, which is what I encourage you to do. Control put, this is your destiny. This is your fate. You got to make these opportunities for yourself. And it's only good, good things to be the person, even if you're just a connector, even if you're just the person that links two people together, now you are the connector. You're also valuable. SoHey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Phil Hudson:No, this is the value of leadership. It's just leadershipMichael Jamin:Is what I was even asking too. Are you getting involved in that? Is that what youPhil Hudson:I'm going to, they don't know this. They'll listen to this. I don't know. But yeah, I've got this final that I did in film school. Every project I've ever done, the audio has just been trashed. It's just been correct. And the problem this time was my cinematographer didn't enable the on-camera audio. And so I did have a good audio person getting the audio, so I just was able to scrape it enough to get an A on my final and get out. But I never finished the project. So that's a project that's sitting there. My friend Ken Joseph, who does the music for your podcast, he's going to do the music on as well. And I'm just going to finally cut it and submit it. And then I'm probably going to put something together with a couple of people from the Tacoma crew who aren't working right now and try to just get something shot and submit it just for fun.Michael Jamin:See, and this gets you off your ass, just lets a fire under your ass to do. But I bet you the, IPhil Hudson:Can't not show up Michael. Not that I have any clout, but it's like I'm number two in the group just because of my tech admin status. And so if I don't show up, what message is that sending to people? And so I take that on myself as my responsibility for helping be involved and support the troubleshooting that goes on. Okay, I need to be an activeMichael Jamin:Participant. How many winners are they going to choose?Phil Hudson:I have no clue on that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well, I look forward to watching the winners. I'm not going to judge, but I will be. I'll enjoy the victors. I'll enjoy their work. And I mean, again, that's just people taking initiative of their own careers. That's what you're supposed to do.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I mean, this is what you've been preaching for two years, man. You've been saying this. It's like no one's going to help you. You got to do it yourself. I think this is just a lost American skillset. That is a very important one.Michael Jamin:This is not film school. They don't have to go to film school to do all this. No, this is where the conversation started.Phil Hudson:And on that note, it's like, do you have to go to film school? Absolutely not. My answer is no. Am I glad I went to film school? I don't know that I would be in the same place today if I hadn't. I think that I had to go through a lot of that stuff. Are there benefits to going to school and getting a degree in general? I think so. I think as someone who grew up poor and I just had this chip on my shoulder all the time, that I was less than. So going and getting a classic education from a liberal arts school, having my eyes opened a little bit more by being encouraged to read stuff I would've never read on my own. I took classes on feminist literature because that was the course that fit into my schedule to check that box.And I took the look through it, history of science fiction. Wow, learned so much about this genre that I love and saw the influence of that. So there's a lot of those benefits I think from a personal development perspective. But I'm also an autodidact. I mean, I've got shells full of books that I can just read and learn on my own, and I believe anybody can do that. So it's each their own. And with kids, my wife is not a believer in college and secondary education doesn't really care because it's not something that ever called out to her. I definitely see the value. And so our decision is it's up to our kids to decide and we'll support whatever they want to do. But I also know I've built a very healthy marketing career on my own that did not go to school for,Michael Jamin:The thing is to graduate though with a hundred hundred or $150,000 in debt,Phil Hudson:It's insurmountable for a lot of people, especially, and I think this is what the strike highlights is, people in Hollywood have this opinion that riders are just driving Lamborghinis and they're loaded. And the answer is no. They're middle class people. They just live in a city that requires more money to live in, but they live a middle class lifestyle that would be the equivalent of a upper middle class lifestyle. In any other suburban area of America doing any other middle class job, there are outliers. It's a bell curve. There are people who make way less. There are a lot of people who make a lot more, but the average in the bell, they're just middle class people and they're in my neighborhood. I mean, I just moved into this new neighborhood a year ago, and in my neighborhood, I go to this church and there are four people in the industry in the church. One's an editor at Sony, one was the head gaffer for N C I S, and he's retired now. And the other one's a composer for film and tv, but they live in what I would call an upper middle class neighborhood. They're not in the Hollywood Hills. I'm further away from LA than I've ever been. This is where I could afford to put my family.Michael Jamin:Right. So it's just a little hard to think about having that amount of debt isPhil Hudson:When you can go to school for six, seven years and then start making 1200 bucks a day as an attorney.Michael Jamin:Yeah. So do you really want to add that for the same debt?Phil Hudson:The same debt? So it's crazy.Michael Jamin:So it's probably just a better way to spend your money and your time probably. I would think. And again, I didn't go to film school. One of the best writers I've ever worked with didn't go to college. She was just a high school graduate. So it's a question of can you put the words on the page? The degree will not open doors for you. No.Phil Hudson:Yeah. And that ties into limiting belief, people talking all the time is you have to go to Harvard to make it in Hollywood. Yeah. It's like, no, there are recruiting groups. There are kind of cliquey things that can happen for sure. And this is, I don't know, so I apologize if this is incorrect, but I've heard that the Simpsons largely hires people from Harvard,Michael Jamin:And that was really, that news is 30 years old, so I don't even know if they're hiring anymore. The Simpsons is not what it once was. And people aren't leaving that show. If you're a writer on that show, you're not leaving because why would you? So I don't know how many writers they hire, and I don't know if I know it once was a feeder. You go to the Lampoon. If you did the Harvard Lampoon, then maybe you get some contact.Phil Hudson:But that's a qualification, right? You to work at the Lampoon, you are qualified because you have to have a certain joke set, a style of jokes. So I mean, that just makes sense to me. I know there's a big U Ss C producing, I wouldn't call it click but network. If you went to the producing school at U S C, that has value to people in the producing side. They know the quality of the education that you had.But I mean, that's alumni networks and that's been around for forever. No different. The difference here is I know that if I need to find a job tomorrow, so let's say the strikes end tomorrow and Tacoma FD is canceled, which is not, but if it did, what's my next step? My step is to send out emails to everybody I know that I've worked with in the four years I've been on Tacoma fd, letting 'em know this is the kind of job I'm looking for. Lemme know if you hear anything. And I know that my work ethic will shine that if there's an opportunity, they'll ask me. They'll recommend me that,Michael Jamin:Right?Phil Hudson:That's the same network. I got that working.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah, right. You built that yourself really. So, and another thing you can do if you decide to take a course or a class, and I've talked about this before, so apologize for repeating myself, but whoever your teacher is, it says if it's screenwriting, ask to read their work. It's okay. That's okay. And you could say, I'd love to, before you sign up, I'd love to read what your work is. And then they'll give you a script. If they're not willing to share their work, what's the problem? It's a red flag. If you read it and you're not sure whether you like where you think it's good or not, there's a simple test. When you turn to page one and you get to the bottom of page one, do you want to turn to page two? It's the bottom of every page. Do you want to turn the page and find out what happens next?If you're on the fence, it's not good enough. It really should be captivating. You should want to, it's entertainment. If it's not entertaining you, that's how you judge. There's no secret language to figure out whether, and I didn't know this when I first broke into Hollywood, I didn't know this. I would read a script and I go, it looks like a script. I don't know. Or I was doing coverage for a publisher. Would this book make a good movie? So I was reading a lot of books and they'd say, do you think it'll make a good movie? I'm like, I guess I remember reading, taking months to read or whatever weeks to read a book and thinking, this is dreadful. I guess this, it's a good movie. No, it is actually less simpler. It shouldn't feel like torture, turning the page.Phil Hudson:And that's a real thing. And we're having read so much stuff now pretty quick.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Phil Hudson:It's going to suck.Michael Jamin:So ask to read their work, and if you don't like it, then don't study from them. They're not going to. It's really as simple as that. And if you do like it, great. Maybe you'll study from still. Doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be a great teacher. Sometimes they can't crystallize it. They just might have some raw talent that they can't really, it doesn't mean they're good at sharing their knowledge means they have some kind of thing in them that, so there's that.Phil Hudson:Well, and let me pay you a compliment too, Michael, because we've had a lot of people go through your course and one of the common testimonials we get or reviews we get is just how easily digestible it is and how packed with value it is. And I remember we've had two people in particular. One Bruce Gordon left you this great review. He said that, and I'm paraphrasing, but he said that learning the whole course, the learning process is so easy to get through that it's impossible to not get value out of the backend. And we had someone who recently signed up within the last month who is literally, this is her job is learning systems, online learning management, and she wanted to know what platform we were using because she was so impressed with it. And I was like, it's the most popular platform. Everyone uses platform. It's not that. It's the fact that you're teaching valuable stuff, organized in a way that makes linear and logical sense that anybody can grasp.Michael Jamin:There's no secret from it is just like I try to explain it in very simple terms so an idiot can get it. I'm not interested in, oh,Phil Hudson:And I'm an idiot. You've said things that I've heard a thousand times over in books and courses. And it wasn't until you said it was like, oh no, duh.Michael Jamin:Yeah, because I don't want to make it harder for my, when I'm working in a writer's room, I don't want to make it harder for myself. I want to make it simple for me to think about these problems. So I don't want to make it harder. The job is hard enough as it is. Why make it harder? Make it simpler. You're telling a story. It's not heart surgery don't make so complicated.Phil Hudson:And you're structured in the course that you talk about your bottom of act one. The way you define that. Oh my gosh, that just made so much sense. The first half of Act two. Oh my gosh. Makes so much sense. And I remember I was lucky enough, I came out to Disneyland with my family and I swung by your garage to talk about marketing stuff for your wife's company. And we were just hanging out where you were recording. And I remember sitting there and you were like, well, what can I do for you? And I was like, oh, I don't know, man. I'd just love to know what you think about story. And you broke the whiteboard out for me the same way you do in the course. And I was in film school at the time, and the way you laid it out, just I wanted to cry. It was like, this is soMichael Jamin:Easy. Yeah, see, it's easy. We don't make things harder. My partner and I, we try not to make things harder than it has to be. And that's not to say it's formulaic or facile, it's just like, because you could tell a complicated, nuanced story, but you don't have to make the beats of it complicated. You don't have to. Geez, because we got to do this every week.Phil Hudson:I was watching Get Out on the plane, I'd never seen Get Out. I've bought it. I wanted to watch it. I just never made the time. And I watched it on the plane yesterday and this thing happens. I was like, I know where we're at. And I checked the time. Oh, we're there. Oh, beat by beat by beat.Michael Jamin:It fell rightPhil Hudson:Into it. Of the greatest films of the last five, six years. Beat by Beat by beat. It's the same story structure we use in Tacoma fd we use in King of the Hill, wherever it is. It's the same thing.Michael Jamin:Yeah, same thing. The wayPhil Hudson:Jordan Peele does it, I could never do cause surprised, fascinating, great, that's him. But it's the same structure,Michael Jamin:Right? The structure is the same, right? So that's where you put the structure is just like that's building a house. Okay. If you know how to frame a house, you should be able to frame the house and then the color of the paint and the tiles, all that stuff is that's the decorations. And that requires your taste and how you want to execute it. That's fine. But don't make the structure the hard part.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Structures are not hard. You have a foundation and you have stuff. That's it. Everything else, the way you put it in your electrical system, what type of water heater you use, the piping you use, how is it connected? The junction box, that's the complicated stuff. That's you, that's your craft. But the framing that, that's a process. So one thing I wanted to tell you is I was at dinner with Paul Soter when I was on the quasi tour, and we were talking about writing in the writer's room and TV and all of this stuff, and I told him this advice that you gave me, which was one, learn hotkeys. If you're going to be a writer's assistant and two, shut the F up. Your job is not to talk in the room. Your job is to sit there and take notes and listen and learn, and that's what you're going to do. And Paul Soder paid you and your writing partner or great credit, he said, yeah, I remember my first season in Tacoma. I just remember sitting there and wanting to shut up and say nothing and just learn from these guys. Oh, wow. Although they have great career in indie film and doing major studio films, they were still learning from you too because of us. I think it goes back to the simplicity with which you're doing itMichael Jamin:And those guys, they're movies. They made some really fun movies that people really love and they've made quite a few. They've made, I don't know how many, maybe probably less than 10 movies, but it's quite a few. But it's probably not more than 10, right? It's eightPhil Hudson:I want to say. But yeah.Michael Jamin:Okay. Let's say it's eight. And many of them have done really, really well. These low budget movies that have really made some money and they have a huge cult following, but they've only told whatever, eight or 10 stories. Whereas when you're in tv, when we started, we were doing 22 stories a season. And it's that repetition that you really is. That's where you really learn how to figure out what story structure is. And you do 22 episodes over my 27 year career, it's like, okay, it becomes a lot easier to know what a story is and how to break a story. Whereas in the beginning of my career, I was like sitting in a writer's room watching the other more senior writers break a story. It was like a magic trick. It's like, how do you know how to do any of this?Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's cool, man. So to answer the question, do you need to go to film school? My answer is no. And for most people, I would actually encourage you not to because you're going to get the debts, you're going to get the student loans, and none of it's going to help you progress in your career. Is there a chance it's going to help you with your craft and get better at your craft? Yeah, absolutely. I think a little bit of it's luck of the draw though. Like you said, it really depends on the teachers you get. Depends on how committed you are. Is it going to make you a better writer? No.Michael Jamin:Are there far less expensive ways to get the same amount of knowledge and connections? Yes, absolutely. It might require a little more work, but think about how much money you're saving.Phil Hudson:Yeah, there's a doctor, a pretty renowned doctor now, Peter Atia. Have you heard of him?Michael Jamin:No.Phil Hudson:Dr. Peter Atia. He's in the health and fitness and lung. He's a longevity doctor. So he literally how to live Chris, he's a Chris Hemsworth doctor, and heMichael Jamin:From Harvard, this guy,Phil Hudson:I don't think it was Harvard, he was John Hopkins. He was a Al intern at John Hopkins. But anyway, he's a book just came out just a couple months ago. Really, really good book about longevity. And he had talked about this thing called Arian Olympics, which is how do I live to be 100 and still be able to get down on the ground and play with my kids and put something in the overhead compartment? All of the things that kill people, old people, they don't have that. But he was talking on a podcast about vaping and nicotine and all that stuff, and he's like, I don't have a problem with nicotine. The problem is the device and it's the tobacco. And this is, for me, I always view things in two types. It's risk and reward. And there's levels. There's a scale of risk and a scale of reward. And I think this applies directly to film school for people the risk, is it like getting hit by a tricycle or is it getting hit by a bus? And the reward is, am I step bending over to pick up a dollar? We're picking up gold coinsAnd there's an offset. If the risk to reward or matched, it might be worth pursuing If the risk to reward or misaligned, it's not. And my opinion here is it's the financial equivalent of getting hit by a bus to pick up dollars. Because you're going to go to la, be a pa, and you're going to make minimum wage for 4, 5, 6 years and you may never get out of that. I know people when the A M T P, excuse me, not the mtp, but the biopsy strike was going on, they were talking about how they never made it past writer's assistant because they'd get on a show and it would get canceled, and then they would get on a show as a writer's assistant and it'd get canceled six years down the road. They have it become a staff writer, even though they're knocking at the door because luck of the draw.Michael Jamin:Yeah, there's luck there. Yeah, for sure. Alright, well there's your answer, Phil. How's that for? All right, well, before we wrap it up, let's tell people what more they can get. We have a lot of resources free. Forget about paying Phil the same. I got a film school here. It's free.Phil Hudson:Here's the big one, Michael, you talked about if you want to learn from somebody, read their stuff. Well, you give away your stuff. You had me put this on the site, so it's on your about page, there's a form. You fill it out, and then Michael will send you a bunch of actual written and produced episodes of TV show. It's like King of the Hill and a bunch of other stuff in there. But you can go read your produced writing and then go watch the show, which is, I think, a step beyond. It's like you can immerse, see what you did and see how it ended up end result, which is pretty cool. So michaeljamin.com. I want to say it's about, but you can just go to the main magazine, I think it'sMichael Jamin:About.Phil Hudson:Yeah, and you can go get it there. And that'll be sent directly to you. The free lesson, the same lesson you taught me, the one I talked about with my professor. You can get that lesson in a longer format with more detail, with more entertaining. And that's michaeljamin.com/free. It's how to Tell a story. You've got a paper orchestra stuff, webinar, which we going to talk about. Yeah, webinar. Webinar. Every three weeks. Now we're doing a webinar. It's about three absolutely freeMichael Jamin:Webinar.Phil Hudson:Come join Michael for an hour, get your questions answered. We've been doing this private v i p thing where you just do q and a with people for about an hour or so after. And the results coming out of that. People love that. They're big fansMichael Jamin:Of that one that is not free. There's a small fee for that to cover some of our expenses, but,Phil Hudson:But you don't have to do that. And you answer questions throughout the whole webinar as well. And we often put 'em on podcasts. So again, access to a professional writer I would've killed for 10 years ago that I never had, and then a paper orchestra book. I think that was something you were going to talk about. You were going to tell us a little bit about that process. You're doing the audiobook, right? Oh,Michael Jamin:One of the things. Yeah, I'm excited. That'll be dropping in a couple months because we're still producing the audiobook. And what I've always, when I was writing this, it's a collection of personal essays, but there's stories, it's not about, it's not an essay. It feels like a story. It feels like you could shoot it, it feels like an episode of television show. But I wanted people to, at the end when as I was writing it, I want people to feel something and feel something like laugh and then feel this maybe discomfort at the end or something to hit 'em in the heart. And I want them to sit in it, and I don't want them, as I was writing, I was like, how do I get people to just sit in this and not turn the chapter once the chapter's over, I want 'em to sit in it. I don't even want 'em to turn the page. I want 'em to really just feel it for a while. And in the audio book, how do you do that in a regular book? You can't. You can only hope that they do that. When I do my show, as I perform this, as I say afterwards, my goal is I want you to go to your car and just before you turn the ignition, just sit in it.I'm rocked. I'm too rocked to even turn the ignition for a couple half a minute or whatever. But for the audiobook, I'm actually able to do this. I'm actually can force you to do this because I do the story. And I gave each story the audiobook to this composer that I work with, Anthony Rizzo on Marin, who's working with me on the audiobook. And I said, if this story, if this piece, this chapter was a piece of music, what would it sound like to you? And so this is his chance to do his art. He came back with these beautiful scores. So at the end of every piece, every chapter, it goes into music that he wrote. And you just listen to it and it's like it carries you out. It carries the last note of the stories, the note, the first note of his score. And it really forces just, and some of they're up and some of them are down, and some of them are happy and some, but it is wonderful how he did this. And so the audio book, I think this makes it more of an experience. And I haven't heard an audio book done this way,Phil Hudson:So that's so cool. And this, having had the privilege of seeing you perform this live last year in la it did that. It did that for me. I still think I'm thinking about it now. I think it was your story, I think it was called Ghost, is that right? Goul.Michael Jamin:The Goul. The Goul, yeah.Phil Hudson:And yeah, man, just thinking about that, all that emotion comes right back. Yeah,Michael Jamin:The score he did for that, the score he did is fricking haunting. I was like, man, this is really good. So I'm so excited.Phil Hudson:So the cool thing is for people who can't see you live, they can get a taste of that performance of you live with it sounds like plussed up with some amazing music too.Michael Jamin:And I do hope to tour with it, but obviously not to every city. It has to be your, I guess, bigger cities. But, and so if you want to know more about that or be notified when it drops, it's michaeljamin.com/upcoming. And yeah, we're working on it. ButPhil Hudson:The only other thing was the newsletter. The watch. Oh, the newsletter to do weekly, your top three things. Also updates. We started adding updates like what podcast episodes coming out, what webinars coming up, that kind of stuff. Just a little bit more informational, but the value is still there. With those three free pieces of content delivered every Friday, right to your inbox. We proactively work to not do anything marketable or salesy to that newsletter. So if you want a lot of free content and you don't really care too much about some of the other stuff that we're doing with the course and that you're safe there, go sign up for the watch list because it's really meant just to be a value add of content that you're putting out already. Just digesting it and getting it to people directly in their inbox.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. So Phil's in charge of all of that. Phil, you do a great job just in keeping all of that up to date and keeping your website up to date.Phil Hudson:We just did a whole revamp on it because when we changed systems last year, there were a lot of people who wanted marketing that were not getting it because we tried to protect that watch list so much from any types of salesy stuff. And you're really big on that. You don't want to be a salesy guy at all. So we did clean that up a bit. So if you haven't been here from Michael and you start, it's because we clean that up, but we even just set it up so they can manage their own list. So if they want to be marketed to and they decide they don't, they can unsubscribe from that. But keep the watch list. We really did a lot of that stuff, trying to make it better.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And thank you for all that. Yeah. Alright, everyone, thank you. Another a great episode, Phil, and I'll be back very soon with more. Until then, keep writing.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar@michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music, by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.
Time Warp 1983: 40th Anniversary Movies & Pop Culture Part 4: Mr. Mom, Krull, National Lampoon's Vacation, Private School, Staying Alive, Jaws 3-D & More! Watch the video on the Fandom Podcast Network YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/FandomPodcastNetwork Audio Podcast Link: https://fpnet.podbean.com/category/time-warp Welcome to the Fandom Podcast Network's 'Time Warp 1983': 40th Anniversary - Movies & Pop Culture Part 4! In this episode of Time Warp, your hosts Kevin, Kyle and Lacee will Time Travel back to the 80's, and look back on the pop culture, movies, TV, music and notable events of 1983, which are celebrating their 40th Anniversary in 2023! Here are the movies we cover in Time Warp: 1983 Part 4: July 1983. - Mr. Mom - Krull - National Lampoon's Vacation - Private School - Staying Alive - Jaws 3-D - Stroker Ace - Class - Deadly Force - Space Raiders Fandom Podcast Network Contact Information - The FANDOM PODCAST NETWORK YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/FandomPodcastNetwork - Master feed for all FPNet Audio Podcasts: http://fpnet.podbean.com/ - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Fandompodcastnetwork - Email: fandompodcastnetwork@gmail.com - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fandompodcastnetwork/ - Twitter: @fanpodnetwork / https://twitter.com/fanpodnetwork Time Warp Host Contact Info On Social Media: - Kevin Reitzel on Twitter / Instagram & Threads: @spartan_phoenix - Kyle Wagner on Twitter: @AKyleW / Instagram: @Akylefandom - Lacee Aderhold on Twitter: @LaceePants / Instagram: @thelaceepants - Tee Public Fandom Podcast Network Store: https://www.teepublic.com/stores/fandom-podcast-network
This week, Emmy nominated Writer/Producer Jonathan Fener, (American Dad!, iCarly, The Mindy Project, and many more) is on the podcast discussing the importance of having access to industry professionals, getting his footing in the industry, and working in the multi-cam world.Show NotesJonathan Fener on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0271779/Jonathan Fener on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jfenskiMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:I always say, you're kissing the wrong asses. Kiss the asses of assistants because they're not go, you know, they don't get their asses kissed. They, they love it. I mean, who wouldn't get, give 'em some attention. They get abused all the time, then they rise up eventually. So, yeah, those are the ones. You gotta be nice to the assistants always, you know.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I have a wonderful guest today. This is a, this is a, I'm gonna tell you the story, how, how we met. So, as you know, the Writers Guild of America's on Strike, and my next guest is a well-known Setcom writer, although we've never worked together over the years. So our paths, you know, we haven't really crossed, but we know all the same people. And then we started, we were on the picket line outside of CBS Radford, and we started chatting and we had a really nice talk. And I was like, well, this, I gotta bring this guy in the podcast. So everyone, if you're driving your car, please pull over, put your hands together. A warm round of applause for Mr. Jonathan Fener. He is, let me just give you some of his credits before I let him talk.You'll notice it's a 45 minute podcast, and I, I do talking for about 44 minutes of it, but I'm gonna talk about your credits. He, he wrote on Bette, the Bette Midler show, Veronica's Closet, do-Over Kid, notorious. It's all relative Method. And Red Father of the Pride, you remember that one with Siegfried and Wright the 78th Annual Academy Awards. I wanna talk about that. American Dad. We know that happy endings, old Soul telenovela, the Mindy Project. How come that wasn't a show? Why was that? Just a project. Trolls Holiday, Elliot to Vegas, American Housewife, trolls, holiday in Harmony. We'll talk about that. And most recently, the iCarly reboot as well as well Mullaney. But guys, this guy's been around the block. John, thank you so much for being on the show.Jonathan Fener:My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thank.Michael Jamin:So, I wanna find out, I wanna know all about your, your history. Let's take it back from the beginning when your great grandparents met. Let's really do a deep dive into your life. ,Jonathan Fener:Eastern Europe.Michael Jamin:Eastern Europe. Let's justJonathan Fener:Do, yeah, let's go back to Eastern Europe.Michael Jamin:But tell me were you, were okay, so how did you first break into the business and did you always know you wanted to be a, a, a setcom writer?Jonathan Fener:Yeah. I, I, even when I didn't know that's what I wanted to do, I, I look back and I'm like, oh, that's what I wanted to do. You know, I, I feel like I'm part of a, a generation that you know, back to watching television shows, videotaping, you know, Saturday Night Live and Uhhuh and sitcoms and, and like I used to audiotape them toMichael Jamin:StudyJonathan Fener:Them and watch. Yeah. And, and, and like, I would, I would watch Saturday Night Live, even when I was old. It wasn't old enough to like watch it. I would tape it on the VCR that we had, the, the one that popped up Yeah. At the top. And then and then I would have an, and then in the morning I'd watch it all day. And I would, and, and I used to make mixtapes, I guess video mixtapes where I would like, like mix and match different sketches that I liked. And then I and I used to listen to those all the time. And then I would also, I'd watch television shows. I did do that thing where I, I would tape television shows and then I would try and like write out the script. I didn't, I didn't know what the formatting was, so I always was interested in Yes, you'dMichael Jamin:Write it, what kind of word for word? Or you'd write your own,Jonathan Fener:I'd write it word for word. I would transcribe.Michael Jamin:Because that made you a writer then. Did you think that was, what was the point of that?Jonathan Fener:Well,Michael Jamin:,Jonathan Fener:It's like this this, this is gonna sound douchey maybe, but I remember reading this quote, I, I, I think Hunters Thompson once said that he used to just type pages of the Great Gatsby, just to feel oh, what it was like to really, to write those words. Yeah. and so you can draw a direct line between me and Hunter s Thompson and The Great Gatsby. Yeah. And, you know, the Bette Midler show. Like, they're basically one to one.Michael Jamin:But then, and Okay, go on. So then, then as a kid, you,Jonathan Fener:Well, I always was a, I was a huge comedy fan. I was a huge movie, television, e everything fan, standup comedy. I loved standup comedy. Right. So was always too afraid to do it. But yeah, I mean, I always knew I wanted to be part of making that comedy, you know, television, movies, all that stuff. So I went to Fast Forward, I went to usc. I, I I didn't go to the film school, but I, I just was, just wanted to be in la Oh. And I guess sort of the way sort of goes, you, you get outta school and, and I, I knew a guy that I went to school with who worked at a talent agency, and he got me a job as a messenger when they were still inMichael Jamin:Existence as a messenger. And so you were driving around town delivering envelopes.Jonathan Fener:That sounds terrible. Thomas Guide. WithMichael Jamin:Your ThomasJonathan Fener:Guide, right? No yeah. In the heat and the traffic. And howMichael Jamin:Long did you do that for?Jonathan Fener:I was probably a messenger for about, I don't know, matter of months, maybe like 3, 4, 5 months. And then a desk opens up and then you're, you're answering phones, so, oh, soMichael Jamin:You didn't have to go to the mail room, you went from Messenger toJonathan Fener:It really wasn't a mail room. I, it was a very small town agency. Okay. It, it was called the Herb Schechter Company. Sure. I dunno if you ever No, I've heard. And it was like back in the day where, you know, he mostly represented like TV writers. They had a whole below the line department. It was a small agency and they didn't really have a male. One boutique. Yeah. Boutique. Boutique. They had a lot of like, guys that were like supervising producers on Magnum, stuff likeMichael Jamin:That. But that's a good, but then, so how long, cuz you know, I was a, I was an assistant at William Morris for three days. I got fired on my second day and I go, but I stuck out the week. I finished the week . So I, I applaud you for being like, it's just a hard job being an assistant for an agent, because I found it was,Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was an assistant for a lot of different people. I was, I, and it, I think it helped that it was kind of, I, I don't know if low, I guess low stakes, cuz it wasn't like, I wasn't at caa. I wasn't at, you know, William Morris. I was at this tiny little agency and this woman I worked for was, you know, she represented like stunt coordinators and, and oh, like that. So not that, look, I still had to do the like, rolling calls thing and all thatMichael Jamin:Stuff. But did you, but did that, did that give you context? Like what did that, what what, what was your takeaway from doing that job for howeverJonathan Fener:Long? Honestly, a lot of the jobs I had until I was a writer were, it taught me what I didn't want to do. Yes. I'm like, oh, I work for an agent. I don't wanna be an agent. Right. And then there's like a network of assistances mm-hmm. where, you know, there was another agent there, this really nice woman named Deborah Lee. I still remember her. She she called me in one day. She's like, what do you want to do? What are you doing? I'm like, I don't know. You know, I mean, I, I think I wanna write, but, you know, may maybe I wanna be a creative exec. I just, I wasn't sure. Okay. So she was like, well, I have a friend who works at Fox and they need an assistant. So, you know, if you wanna get outta here and go work there.And I was like, great. So I went to go work for this other woman and then I just met, I would just meet assistants and they would offer me other jobs. I worked for this guy. My biggest assistant job was I worked for this guy John Matian, who was the president of Fox Network. Mm-Hmm. . So that was the first time where I saw an entire television season from pitches, development scripts and shooting all the way through. Right. Cause I was on his desk and I read every script that came across his desk that was like, I don't know if you remember that guy, or even like, that was the year, that was like in the early mid nineties when they were like, maybe gonna try and do like friends. Like they had this show called Partners and Ned and Stacy andMichael Jamin:Ned and Stacy. Yep.Jonathan Fener:It was becoming a little bit more of like, let's try and make a, a friends clone. So like the XFiles was happening then, right? It was just like, it was, I had one year where I had an entire overview of television and I'm like, and then I would read the scripts and I'm like, I think I can, I I can do this. I can. SoMichael Jamin:Did who, where did you learn to write then? What do you, what was the next step?Jonathan Fener:I just figured it out. I mean, I think that what happened was I met my partner who was my friend Josh by Cell. And we were buddies. And he was at UCLA in screenwriting school actually. Okay. And he was actually writing with his dad. He, him and his dad were writing a script together. It was, it was very, and I was, we would just talk about stuff. And, and then, so the story is that we had another friend who was a PA on this show called The Single Guy. Yep. Remember that show with Jonathan Silverman? Yes.Michael Jamin:Jonathan Silverman. Yep.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. The Brad Hall show. And we, he used to bring home scripts every week and we would read them and we were like, I can't remember, one of us pitched an idea, but funny if they did an episode, whatever, like in real time of whatever. And then we're like, we should write it. Let's just write it. We know how to do it. We should just write it. So we sat down and wrote this script and it was, I thought it was pretty good. And , we, we, and, and again, the assistant network was we knew somebody who was an assistant to Richard Whites at the time. Yeah. Who was a young guy. AndMichael Jamin:And young agent. He was I c m probably, right?Jonathan Fener:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and it was just one of these things where like, after a while I was assistant for three, four years and I had access cuz all the young people that I was working with were now becoming executives or agents. Yeah. So there were people you could actually hand your script to. They would read it as opposed to just throwing it in a pile. Right. And the, the, the long and the short of it was Richard read the script because Brad was a client of his, and I remember he called me at my house and he was like, your friend Mallory gave me your script. I think it's funny and I think that you need to write something else because no one will read a single guy. He's like, I only read it because I represent Brad, but no one will read. He's like, you have to write friends, you have to write Seinfeld, you have to write news, radio, whatever. So Right. That, that was kind of the first thing where we were like, Hey, we can maybe do this. Let's doMichael Jamin:This. That's interesting because this is what I say. Cuz people always sit and they're like, well, do I have to move to Hollywood to break into Hollywood? It's like, well, this is how you do it. You get these jobs, you know, you become an assistant and you network or you get on the network and then that's how you make connections. So that's what you did. I do. I wonder, do you think the assistant network is still strong now? I mean, so everything's changing so much.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. You know, it's a good question. You know, it's like, that's the age old question. Like, how do you break in? And, you know, I feel for years now that like, maybe that's not the way it's done anymore. May maybe I'm just looking at like, stuff as like an older guy where like I look at people and I go, I don't know. Can't you make your own television show on your phone? Or something like, I, but you know, you, you still need some kind of access, I think. And maybe I don't even, maybe I don't, I can't wrap my mind around it a little bit. But like, it just seems like if you do, if you write something, if you make something, someone's gotta watch it. Someone's gotta see it. Mm-Hmm. that can make a decision for you or, or help you. Right. And that's about, that's about that relationships.Michael Jamin:But then how did, so what was your next step? How did you get on staff?Jonathan Fener:We wrote a bunch of specs and we had some friends that were becoming agents. A guy that I, I, I was, I was an assistant with a guy who became an agent and he was a paradigm. We, we kind of, we worked with him for a little bit, but it was, we, cuz like we were friends and like, when things don't go so well sometimes mm-hmm. , it's like it's messing up the relationship. So I think we just were able to get, look, we, we, we, anybody that would read our script, that was a, that was a young agent, we would somehow try and get to them. And everybody passed. One guy at I C m mm-hmm. was signed us. I mean, I, I remember very clearly getting a phone call. I, I, you know, my partner and I, Josh, our birthdays are a week apart. We really were like, you know, we were friends, we were, you know, we, it was like intertwined lives. But we were having like a joint birthday party mm-hmm. . And we got a phone call that, you know, they wanted to sign us. And that was a big, big fuckingMichael Jamin:Deal. And, and what, and they submitted you to which show? What was the first show then?Jonathan Fener:Well, this is funny how things work too. So his one big connection was this woman shit. Her name was Debbie. This is Embarra. I, that's okay. She, she ran Bry, Kaufman Crane. She was like their development person.Michael Jamin:Right.Jonathan Fener:And I feel bad that I don't remember her name cuz she was sweet. And, but that was a good relationship that he had. Mm-Hmm. . So they submitted us for Veronica's Closet. Right. The, it, it was, it had done a year. It did. Well, you know, Christie alley's back to TV and it was, I mean, it was Thursday night. Yeah. Nbc I mean, it was a huge, huge show. AndMichael Jamin:Let's take it back for a second. That used to be a big time slot. Thursday night, n b slate, nbc. Now I don't even know what now. I don't know what they, what they're doing there, but maybe some, it's reality. It's soJonathan Fener:Fire, something fire.Michael Jamin:Is it some dump Dumpster fire? But that's the one. So, but it's, so, but this is something else that you bring up which I think is really interesting. Like, people always say you're kissing, I always say you're kissing the wrong asses. Kiss the asses of assistant because they're not go, you know, they don't get their asses kissed. They didn't, they love it. I mean, who wouldn't get, give 'em some attention. They get abused all the time, then they rise up eventually. Yeah. So those are the ones you gotta be nice to the assistants always, you know,Jonathan Fener:Oh, yeah. Christmas, you know, send them, get the, get the gift card, do the thing. Yeah. I mean, you know, they'll put your call through. I mean, look, I mean, they can do only so much, but yeah, it was, it's just, again, everybody, even if it's the same trajectory, everybody's story is a little bit different, you know? Yeah. And you know, it, it was, I think we were, I think we were lucky, but it was also, it was a, it was, you know, I, I hate to sound like I'm a thousand years old, but it was a very different time. Yeah. And, you know, staffing was like, almost were all seemed like so many opportunities. And it was just like, it almost seemed like, it wasn't like, you know, if I'm gonna get staffed, it was sort of like, where am I gonna get staffed? And, and but, but you know, you sweated out and I never felt like that. I mean, and for every, we, we, I don't think, you know, look, I, I think we were good and, and, but and still are. But you know, I never felt like we were juggling offers . Yeah. You know, it was definitely like, you know, okay, we got this gig and, and you know,Michael Jamin:Yeah. People don't, people don't realize that as well. Like, once you're in, it's great. It, that first job is hard, but you're, then you always gotta worry. You gotta worry about your next job. None of it's, you know, if people think well, you know, it is like you must have it made, but you don't, you never have it made. You're always hustling.Jonathan Fener:Never.Michael Jamin:What did you feel your first season as a staff writer? Did you feel comfortable? Did you feel like, oh, and over your head?Jonathan Fener:Honestly, no. I, I, I can say that with confidence. I felt like I got there and I was like, yeah, this is what I should be doing. Oh, you said I'm not just Yeah. You know, look, we were the youngest guys that, you know, we were the staff writers. Right. The baby writers. It was a very challenging place to work. I mean, you know, Bry, Kaufman Crane, you know, look, we, I could, we could do an entire podcast on just working on b Brianca's Closet and just literally being down the hall from season five of friends. It's like the Beatles. Yes. They, they, their, their dressing room is down the hall. And I'm, you know, with Jerry the Pacemakers or something. Not that, not that. That's, that's a great reference, by the way, for all your younger,Michael Jamin:I don't, I don't know. Listener. Yeah.Jonathan Fener:Just some, but it was like, and the show was, you know, it, it was what it was. It was funny. There were tons of funny people on that show, people I still talk to, to this day. Honestly, but it was like the, the culture of that. And I think it, it's a, it's, it's not a news story in sitcoms. But, you know, we worked, we watched the Sun come up all the time, and it was really, that was my first step. It was like, I had never done it before, but I was like, I knew immediately. I'm like, this is not the way it, this is not the way it should be. Right.Michael Jamin:Was it cause stories were being tossed out? Or notes from the network or what?Jonathan Fener:Yeah, it, it was poor, poor management.Michael Jamin:Oh, time management. It wasJonathan Fener:Poor time management. You know, I would say like, you know, you're, when you work on a, on a show with terrible hours, you're just like, you're a victim of somebody else's badMichael Jamin:Work. Well, there's, there's that. Yeah. Yeah. I always felt very when we were running a show, I was like, I always felt I would crack the whip just because I felt like I want people to go home. I want stop messing around. And, and I was a hard ass in that way. Cause I wanna go home and I think you wanna go home too, don't you? You know, like, let's just work and go home.Jonathan Fener:Those are the ones, the ones that don't want to go home. Those are theMichael Jamin:Worst. Yeah. Those are the worst. Right. Did you, were you on many shows like that, where you felt like a hostage ?Jonathan Fener:No. well, let me think. Not really. That was the worst. And then there were a couple other shows that were rough, but I think that, like, as time went on, I definitely got lucky as time went on that I, I worked for de Decent people.Michael Jamin:Well, you also had another show that was basically the stepchild, which was American Dad compared to Family Guy. I mean, family Guy. Was this behemoth, not that American Dead was any slouch, but you were still in the shadow of a, a family guy, right?Jonathan Fener:That's right. The other one. Yeah. Yeah. The other show. Which, but that Yeah. And that, that was good point. No, but it was, it was and animation was something that I, you know, we got into pretty early on too. And I really, really liked that. And you know, there, there's animation usually is not terrible because the deadlines are, are way far apart. Yeah. Like, as far as like, you know, like Multicam is probably the worst because it literally, you gotta rewrite itMichael Jamin:Tonight at four, at four o'clock you start your day basically. Yeah. AfterJonathan Fener:The run Yeah. Run through is it ruins your whole night. And then it's like someone has, like, if you're doing single camera, you know it, you're usually reading a script for the next week. So, you know, you want to get it done by tonight, but, you know, maybe you can leave a couple of jokes and then the next day you can like, sort of clean it up. Right. But like Multicam, they're, they're at rehearsal at 9:00 AM so they need a script.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. And that was your joint. You were on the Warner Brothers slot. All right. So then, so then what happened? You, I'm gonna, I'm going with your credits over here. So Veronica's closet. And then what about, what was, you were there for, well, how many, well, how many seasons was that? The show was what? Two seasons?Jonathan Fener:They did? Th they three. I was on the last two.Michael Jamin:The last two. And then when it was done, what happened?Jonathan Fener:When it was done, I was like, I, I did it. I, you know, no, I, I was like we, we just got back out in the staffing pool, you know?Michael Jamin:Right. And then you just jumped.Jonathan Fener:We, we, yeah, that was the next, the next season we went to, we got on the Bette Midler show, which at the time was like massive. It was massive. ThatMichael Jamin:Was massive. And then,Jonathan Fener:And that's another, I'm sorry to interrupt. I was gonna say, like, that's an interesting story where, you know, I don't know if you think of 2 26 year old guys as like, yeah, we gotta get those guys on the Bette Midler show. Mm-Hmm. . But our agent submitted us, and at the time we were even thinking to ourselves like, what, what samples can we write that are a little different? So we wrote a Buffy, the Empire Slayer Script, just cuz like, we liked the show and Right. The tone. And so we wrote that and then, and I think we were like, maybe we can look and see about, you know, maybe getting on like an hour or something like that. And then the, it just so happens that Jos Whedon, I think worked for the guy that created that show, Fette.Michael Jamin:So I was gonna say, I wanted to say Cohan and Nik, but no, that, I don't think that's right. Who created it?Jonathan Fener:Jeffrey Lane.Michael Jamin:Jeffrey Lane, of course. Right,Jonathan Fener:Right. Who was a big mad about you, dude.Michael Jamin:Yes. And then, then working for Bette. I mean, that's, that's a whole other thing. You have this oversized star, really a giant star. And she must have had a lot of creative input.Jonathan Fener:Yeah, yeah. You know, she had opinions, but no, she was it was, it was nuts. I mean, you know, they picked that show up for a full season, which even, even then wasn't a thing. And she, she just was like, like such a massive force, you know? Yeah. Almost too big for television. I would even say, like, I remember thinking, she's on the stage and I'm like, and I mean the sound stage. Like I can see her playing Caesars just live or in the movies where she's gigantic. But there's also, there's, there's, I don't know if muting is the right word, but you know what I mean, like, like, there's just something about those mediums that like, sort of, and, and I just think on tv she just was like, massive. Just like, but, but, you know, really funny. And, you know, she did everything. You know, she sang the Rose and she, it was like, pulled out all the stops. It was just, it was almost like, and I don't think she knew what being on a television show entailed. I think when you take people that have never worked on TV and put them on tv, they're like, I have to come back again tomorrow. And Yeah. Tomorrow. And it's a new script today. And like, they're used to shooting films, but even like, it, it's, it's a grind for everybody. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jonathan Fener:SoMichael Jamin:She, she became a little cantankerous. You think ?Jonathan Fener:She, I think, yeah. No, she, she, she, you know, she liked me. she liked me and my partner. We, we wrote this episode actually with Kobe Bryant in it.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay.Jonathan Fener:And I think they were like, get the young guys to write this. And Kobe was, and he agreed to do the show. I think his wife was a huge Bette Midler fan. He, I think he said, I mean, he was nice guy. I remember meeting him and the show, I mean, think about this. We shot the sh we shot our episode in the forum. Like, and, and the, the, the plot of the show is that, that becomes like, she basically accidentally gets onto the court and she starts dancing with the Laker girls. IMichael Jamin:Don't know, but it was a multi happened. It was a Multicam, right?Jonathan Fener:Yeah. But they just, they shot it on the forum, I mean, on form. They, and it was, it was the kind of thing where it was like, whatever it cost, it cost,Michael Jamin:Right.Jonathan Fener:They booked the forum and, and that episode sort of turned out okay. And then I think she felt like, oh, these guys get the show. So they took us out, she took us out to lunch, and she's like, what should, what should the show be? You guys see that? OhMichael Jamin:No. Oh no. And you guys are, you guys are story editors at this point. Right. See, that would be panicked about that. That's not good.Jonathan Fener:Co Cohen was at that lunch too.Michael Jamin:Oh, she took Rob. See, that's the thing. She lovedJonathan Fener:Rob, loved Rob.Michael Jamin:My, my rule of thumb early in my career is don't let the actors know your name cuz only bad things can come of it. . And then, and then, right. So she takes you and now you're, maybe you don't wanna talk about this, but I, that puts you in a difficult position because she should be taking the showrunner and the showrunner should be bouncing you. She should be bouncing the ideas and not, you know,Jonathan Fener:You know. Yeah. It was a Yeah, it was. I mean, I didn't know. We were just like, well, you know, just more do more of this stuff. Right, right. You know, we'll, you know, go to a baseball game. Or, I, I just think she, I, I, look, I think that she was searching for what the show was. I think the showrunner was, I think they just were, and it was a, it was a weird, not a weird premise, but it was like, she, she played a character named Bette, and she played Aer that was a famous Hollywood actress and had been in a movie called The Rose and all these things that were true. Right. But she kept saying, I'm, but I'm not Bette Midler.Michael Jamin:She would say that in the show, but I'm not Bette Midler. She would say, she would say that toJonathan Fener:Us. Oh, okay. Cause we would write jokes and she's like, but I'm not Bette Midler. And we're like, but you were in The Rose. And we're like, okay. Bette Schidler. You're bet. Schidler. Yeah. And, and, and a lot of stuff that happened to her in real life we would try and put into the show. But it was like, it was just one of those things where we were just trying to find our footing and, and, and never really found it.Michael Jamin:Wow. But that's pretty cool though. I mean, hanging out with Bette Midler's pretty cool. SheJonathan Fener:Was something else, man. She was like a, like I said, like a force, like just funny and, and just larger than life. AndMichael Jamin:You know, but we were, we didn't just shoot me. And and George Siegel, of course, in the seventies, there was no bigger actor than George Siegel. And he wasJonathan Fener:Huge. Yeah. Funny.Michael Jamin:And then c just shoot me. And we wrote an episode and he, George could not have been a sweeter guy, such a nice guy and great sense of humor. But there was one episode he, I guess he wasn't happy with what he was playing. Maybe he didn't have enough lines, or maybe he thought his storyline was dumb or whatever. . But I remember he, we were all the writer's rehearsal. And George goes, you know, I was nominated for an Emmy. I'm sorry. He was, you don't have nominated for an Oscar. You know that. Right. And one of the writers goes, yeah, that was a long time ago. George. Get in the dunk tank. . And George thought that was so funny. I mean, he like, to his credit, he just laughed. He thought it was great. .Jonathan Fener:That's so funny.Michael Jamin:That's what's fun about working with some of these, you know, some, some of these old timers are great, some of them are, you know, a little di difficult. Who knows. All right. So then what, at what point did you guys start developing your own shows? Cause that's always a big leap.Jonathan Fener:You know, we, we were kind of like wanting to do that early. And I remember that was another thing that was not encouraged. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Not then itJonathan Fener:Wasn't at all. It was just sort of like, it was the tail end of it, but it was kind of just like, here's the model. Get on staff. Mm-Hmm. work your way up to producer, supervising producer, get a deal. Mm-Hmm. and then you develop. Right. So that was the, that was the the road. But we were like, no, we have some ideas. And you know, if they don't wanna listen to us at, at nbc, then maybe they'll listen to us at mtv. So we had heard that MTV was looking to develop shows. Cheap show. I mean, it's like that thing every, like couple of years. MTV's like, we wanna do scripted. And then they would hardly ever do it, but Right. We had this idea that we would do cuz they wanted to repurpose videos, but somehow do it in a scripted way.So we had this idea that we would do like Dream on, but with music videos. So it was about a kid whose interior monologue was music videos instead of old movies. Right, right. And like, just seemed it was like risky business, but the kid is 16 and he's just that. So we sold that. We actually sold that and wrote it and it never got shot. But that was like, pretty early. That was like a couple years in. And we sold a movie. Like, we were kind of like trying a bunch of stuff. But I think that we early on were like, I feel like we should do our own stuff too. Uhhuh . So I always have said like, like, like I don't, I don't know what it's like to have just like one job. I always feel like I was doing two things at once. So like, eventually if people are always like, they're on staff, like I was always on staff. And then on the weekends I was working on the other thing.Michael Jamin:You see, people don't understand how exhausting that is cuz you're on staff, you're working very long days and then on the weekends you're working more. You know, it's, it's, it's good for you when you're, you know, it's hard. It's hard to do that. Yeah.Jonathan Fener:It was hard. And I think it was the right look. I wasn't, I was, I was, I was married, but I didn't have any kids and mm-hmm. , you know, but it's, it was tough, man. I mean, you know, and, and that was back before you, we were zooming. So like, we would go, I'd go to Josh's house, he'd come to my house, Uhhuh, . I mean, we used to literally meet in the middle and trade.Michael Jamin:Oh. Cause you guys, you guys let, did you live far apart from each other?Jonathan Fener:Yeah, yeah. We, we, we, yeah. UsuallyMichael Jamin:Trade far discs. So I'm, I'm skipping ahead a little bit, but, but I'm curious to know, well first of all, I wanna know how, what was the academy, how did you work on the Academy Awards? How did that come about? That's such an odd term for you thatJonathan Fener:Yeah, that was, that was the connection. There was, that was the year John Stewart hosted, I don't know if that was his first time. I know he did a bunch of times. It was the year of crash crash one. Okay. The best picture. And like Philip er Hoffman one for Capote, but John was Right. Was hosting and he brought out like a bunch of daily show people. And my partner went to college with a guy, Ben Carlin. Yes. Who I kind of became friends with too, because of those guys. So, so Ben was running the Daily Show. He was one of the eps. And so when he came out, he called me and Josh and a couple of other guys and asked if we wanted to be part of the staff of people. Basically they, the, the Daily Show guys wrote the monologue. They asked us the la guys to write like short film parodies of the nominees.Right. So, and then, you know, maybe help out with the, and and, and on on show night we would be part of the joke room cuz they're writing jokes throughout the night. With like, I mean, Bruce Lance was there mm-hmm. and some local school guys were, were there. But so yeah. So we basically pitched like 20 little short filmed things and they picked five or six of 'em and then we got to produce them and, and, and all that. But we were part of that whole thing. That sounds fun. Yeah, it was really fun. It was really, really fun. And like on show night, we literally, they put us down in this basement and we are like watching the show live and it was like instant messaging. If whatever, who, if somebody won something, we would like shoot a bunch of jokes up to them and the wings. ButMichael Jamin:Did you have to wear a tuxedo to do that? Yes. In my mind. You, I knew it in my mind, you have to wear a tuxedo even though you're not gonna be on camera, but you're at the Oscars. Wow. They tell you thatJonathan Fener:Because Yeah. Be because we were, I mean, it was really cool. I mean, we got, went, went to, you know, my, my wife and, and Josh's wife and, and all the wives got to go to the show. Right. They got tickets to the show. We were downstairs and then afterwards we went to the governor's ball. Right. I mean, it was really, I mean, we had access.Michael Jamin:That's a trip.Jonathan Fener:That's, it was, that didn't get a gift back. I was really hoping I'd get like a, because I always, I'm like, there's like a trip to Australia in there or something, but I,Michael Jamin:But you got a nice, you got a nice paycheck that's got that kind of counts for something.Jonathan Fener:I don't remember how much we got paid. I don't know if it was, I, I feel like, I don't knowMichael Jamin:Now what about it was great. What about the Mindy Project? Cuz that was like a big, that must have been a big experience for you.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was fun. And, and that when we were, we had a deal at Universal mm-hmm. . And we had, we, we were kind of lucky. Like we, that was when I worked on the Malaney show and Right. We did a lot of development when we were there and we supervised and ran a couple of shows there. But that was sort of towards the end where they just asked us to come and help out.Michael Jamin:Okay.Jonathan Fener:Oh, for a season. Yeah. And it was it was like, it it is one of those things though, where it was a very tight, well-oiled machine and we, and it was, it was fine. It, it was, it was kind of funny though cuz it was like, you, this sort of happens where, you know, you, you write pilots, you shoot pilots, you run shows, but then sometimes you're a staff guy again. Yeah. And that was a gig where we were sort of like, alright, we're part of this staff. And, and everybody there was like, really funny, really smart. Like, I think, I think that writer's room literally had like three former Lampoon editors, Uhhuh and just like really, really funny smart guys. Right. And women. And we just were like, okay, we're just pitching jokes.Michael Jamin:You're, oh, okay. And then so that, that's, that's the whole experience. But did Mindy run the show? Was she the showrunner at,Jonathan Fener:I mean, she, I she, she had, there was a guy named Matt War Burton, who was sort of running the room mm-hmm. When she was gone. Because the most impressive thing was that she, she shot all day. Yes. Because it was seeing the camera show. She was the star of the show. But she came in at lunch, Uhhuh . And Matt would pitch her and she very efficiently was like, I love this. I love this. What if this happens? What if this happens? Gotta go. And so she, she had the final say. Right. But she was busy, you know. Yeah. And, and that, I I'm trying to think Melany was that way too, but Melany was really part of the writing and that was also a Multicam. So,Michael Jamin:And that was probably, it's, that Melany show was probably three years too soon. Like, you know, like before he really became huge.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. That was, you know, I, I think that, that, this was my opinion and I'm not like making this up. And I remember we used to talk, like John was trying, I feel like John was trying to do something where, you know, everyone just looked at it and at face value and said, oh, it's Seinfeld. He's just doing Seinfeld. But Uhhuh, I think he really, really liked the, the medium. He liked multi-cam, but there was a part of it that I think was a little bit satirical. Mm-Hmm. . But it really, I, I think that if you didn't know that you're just like, oh, he's just, is just a, you know, like I feel like some of the stories that he pitched he felt were funny because it's like, oh, this is kind of a clammy story. But I, but I think it's funny in like, I'm doing it with a wink. Right. But I think people maybe saw it and said, there'sMichael Jamin:No wink. I don'tJonathan Fener:See the wink. Yeah. There's no, yeah. And, and, you know, but it, it was, it's not that it was the wrong vehicle because it was his show. And, and, and he is the funniest guy in the room always, you know? Right. I mean, and NA, see Petra was on the, was in the cast too. She was really funny. There was a great cast. Elliot Gould was on that show. Martin Short was on that show. Yeah. It was like, it was, it was, it was really, really fun. But yeah, maybe it was, I, I think maybe he was trying to like rein, not reinvent the multi-cam, but just like, turn it on 10 a little bit. Right. And it maybe wasn't, no one was like, ready for that.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamen. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist.Did you, cause whenever we developed for comics, we, you know, we wound up studying, then we read, we watched the act, we read, listened to their, whatever the audio books or, you know, read their, did you do the same as well forJonathan Fener:I just knew you mean for that show or for,Michael Jamin:Well, for Malaney or, or for any, any comic that you're writing for. Really. Or even like Bette, you know, for example,Jonathan Fener:Well, Bette, I mean, we definitely like combed through her career and her life and mm-hmm. tried to get stories from it. Mm-Hmm. yeah. Whenever, and, and, and, and, you know, the, the Mullany thing, we, we kind of like, we were also, that was a period of time where like, we were on that staff for a period of time, and then we had a pilot picked up and went to go shoot it. Oh. So we were sort of there for a, a specific period of time. But like, that show was all him to me. I mean, he ran that with a guy John Pollock, a good friend who who's also like, he, he's, he's such a good, he's a pro guy. He's a pro and, and can guide things. He's so funny and smart. But so I think that, that they really clicked well. And there were a lot of really funny people on that staff too. But yeah. Yeah. I, I think that to answer your question, it's always good, especially if you're dealing with somebody who's gonna put a little bit of their lives into it, to just mm-hmm. because I mean, frankly, you, you kind of want to like, connect with them too. Like, it's something that they can connect with. Right. Unless they don't wanna do it. Unless they wanna be completely a different person if they're being some version of themselves. Yeah.Michael Jamin:What's so odd is that you and I have never worked together, even though we've worked with so many of the same people, you know? Yeah. It seems, it seems like very odd that, you know, how how did that never happen? But how do you see, like, so okay, we are on strike. How do you see the business now? Like, what do you, like, what's your take on the past, I don't know, three to five years? You knowJonathan Fener:Everything's going great. It's great.Michael Jamin:Everything's perfect.Jonathan Fener: and just getting betterMichael Jamin:.Jonathan Fener:I, everybody knows what's going on. Yeah. no, I I think it, to me it feels like it's a massive sea change. Yeah. It really feels like even having lived through the first strike, like that was streaming was just kind of coming around and, you know, Netflix was a thing and, but now everything has completely been disrupted and mm-hmm. , I just think that I mean look, this is nothing new, but like, you know, to, to me, cable seemed to be working okay. And then streaming came in and it just seemed like there were no parameters. It's like all the streaming services come, came around. And I understood economically that like all the studios are gonna want to have their own thing mm-hmm. and not have to license it to anybody anymore. But without the structure of a, of a schedule, like a nightly schedule, it's just like, it just became a bottomless pit.Yeah. And so there was this five, you know, it, it was the, it was the old, it was the, the Wild West again. And there's a billion shows. And I, I, you know, some of these studios I guess were just like, wait, this is so expensive. Like a full staff for every show and we're making so many shows. We need to, now, now it's like we overspent now we need to back up a little bit. And then, but in the meantime, to me, I just felt like it was, like the rules got changed where there was a somewhat of a model in network television and even cable where it's like, we're gonna pick this show up for X number of episodes. We're gonna have this many people on staff. That's the way it's done. Mm-Hmm. . And then now the, it's like, oh, we have this new area of streaming. We're just gonna do things differently. Now we're gonna hire three people. Mm-Hmm. , or the guy that created the show is just gonna write 'em all and then shoot 'em all. And it, it just, I don't, it's, it's, you know, I mean, all I can know, all I can do is keep doing what I do, but it's, you know, it seems more, it, it really seems, it feels like the ground underneath us is that much more Yeah. Shaky. Really shaky.Michael Jamin:How do you, and what's your take? I don't know if you work a lot with, well you know, young, well, let's see. I actually, I have two questions I wanna ask you cuz your last, your last network show was probably was what The Mindy Project? Cause I haven't worked, I haven't worked in the network for a while. It's all been cable. Right.Jonathan Fener:The last network show I worked on was American HousewifeMichael Jamin:Oh. American House. So it's so interesting. Which wasn't even that long ago. And so you're working with young, there's bigger staffs on network. You're, they're bringing in younger writers. What's it like? What, what are the kids like? Do you think they're different these days on network shows?Michael Jamin:Because we had a hierarchy. We had, there was a pattern. There was a, you know, all broken.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I think it's probably better. I mean, I worked, I worked in some rough rooms and then I worked in some more, you know, I certainly, I don't feel like I ran a rough room. What do you mean?Michael Jamin:What do you mean by rough room? What were they like?Jonathan Fener:Just a, that the, the real hierarchy. Like when I was a staff writer, you were not really expected to talk very much. Right. It was kind of like sit and listen. Right. But and then I'd say I'd, I'd pitch something and they'd be like, not now. And I'd say, I'm sorry. And they'd say, don't be sorry. Just be quiet.Michael Jamin:. Don't be sorry. Don't let happenJonathan Fener:Again. Don't be sorry. Just be quiet. I, I, and like, look, that's the, that's the, it was always done with a joke. You know what I mean? Right. And, and like, I don't ever feel like I was treated cruelly. Mm. I mean, I mean, I guess I, I guess it was cruel that, you know, I did feel like I was held hostage and, you know, yeah. Going home at 6 30, 7 o'clock in the morning in, in rush hour traffic the wrong way. Like yeah. My nights and days were mixed up. But like, eventually what I was gonna say was I just feel like there was something to earning it a little bit. You know, I, I just feel like, you know, even even those first jobs, like, especially like Bright Coffman Crane, I remember there were certain things that you, like, they were big on floor pitching Right.On, on, on, on show night. And that's great experience. I mean, look, multi cams aren't around as much as they used to be, but like, I remember learning a ton. Like, I, I can still shoot back to the time we were on show night and a joke bombed, and then you just huddle up mm-hmm. and you're just staring at each other and everyone's thinking, and you gotta come up with an alt. And people are pitching stuff and it's like, and you pitch a joke and everybody laughs and you're like, oh my God, you're theMichael Jamin:Hero.Jonathan Fener:Amazing. And then, yeah. And then, and then they put it in and itMichael Jamin:Dies and it, and it dies. Yeah. That's what a flip joke. People listen. That's what a floor pitch is. I'm showing that on a multicam, you at the last minute throw a joke in after one bombs. SoJonathan Fener:Yeah. Right. And then you finally, you, you give up and you just pitch a joke with the word nipple in it. . And people laugh at that and you're like, ah, I hate myself. Yeah. But no, but, but I, I think that now, you know, ha like being the older guy and, and even, you know, running a show, like, there, there is a, there is a certain level of like, everybody has an equal voice mm-hmm. . And, which I think is good, you know, but I also think that there's, it's not that you are less than at all. To me it was always about like experience. Mm-Hmm. . Like, you, you just gotta, you know what it is, it's about, it's, there's, there's no substitute for being able to read the room. Yeah. And there are people sometimes that are younger and less experienced and they, they pitch an idea and no one says anything, which is like the night, it's, it's, you know, the worst is if someone says, that sucks. Right. But if you pitch a joke or a story and no one really like, jumps on it, no one Yes. Ands it, you know what, let it float away because Yeah. You know, and then if you re-pitch it and then you re-pitch it,Michael Jamin:You're gonna get yelled at, you'reJonathan Fener:Gonna get yelled at. Like, that's just not cool. And I feel like sometimes maybe people don't like that anymore. You know? Yeah. Like, you're not supposed to do.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I hear you. What, what? Surprised It's so hard. There's a huge learning curve on their job. And when someone pitches an idea, if it's a good idea, it really doesn't matter who it comes from, but it's pretty obvious when it's a good idea. The right. Like the, the senior writers are, oh, that's good. Right. And if you're new inexperienced, you just don't know what's, what's a good idea from a bad idea. And I think they sometimes get a little offended or hurt. It's no, it's, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's just the idea. It's not you, you know? Right. The idea didn't land.Jonathan Fener:Sometimes it's them. No. Sometimes it'sMichael Jamin:ThemJonathan Fener:. But yeah, it's, it best idea wins always, always, always. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Best idea. Gets you homework faster and so and so. Yeah. I know. Well, I was gonna ask you something else. Oh. Oh, that's, that's how I was gonna say we met, we met years ago. Cause you were running a show, which is an interesting thing that you did was said you were running a show called Awesome Town, but you were running it. Someone else with less experienced writer wrote it and you guys were brought on to supervisor it. Right,Jonathan Fener:Right, right.Michael Jamin:It was like, so talk about your experience doing that kind of stuff.Jonathan Fener:That was the first time we'd ever done that. We've, and we've done that a bunch just because I feel like my partner and I, that's not really something that a lot of people love to do, like run other people's shows. Everybody wants to, you know, get your own thing. And we were writing our own pilots at the time too. But if you get enough experience, honestly, you know, my feeling is you want to have as many skills as possible in this business because mm-hmm. , you know, you want to just have another arrow in your quiver.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jonathan Fener:That's the right term. But like, so i, if you can successfully help someone just guide the ship and it's their show and they've never done it before, cuz that's a really hard job.Michael Jamin:Were there creative struggles though, between you and them at all when you do this?Jonathan Fener:No, honestly, no. I really feel like it was this guy, Adam Ste. Hillel, who's like super nice guy. He he's like big feature guy now. I think he wrote Black Adam. Mm-Hmm. , he like, works with the Rock a lot and, and he created Undateable with Bill Lawrence too. Mm-Hmm. . So he's, he's had a bunch of stuff. No, he's very nice guy. Very funny. And it was actually kind of cool that he got this job on, it was basically just about the, these four like early twenties friends and negotiating life afterwards and they threw a lot of stuff. It's funny, I remember they, they picked the show up because I feel like a, b C was looking to do something in the younger space. Right. But it did, it was one of those shows. It wasn't, it was very low concept. And there was a whole opening teaser that we, I I always suspected, this is why it got picked up cuz it was very, it was very American pie.It was like kind of dirty and there was like a couple and somebody had peanut butter on them and a dog was looking and Right. You can imagine. So but I remember thinking like, this is why they picked it up because this is outrageous. There's no way they ever shoot this though. Right. Which is like, that's like an age old story in tv. It's like the thing they love about it. Mm-Hmm. is the thing they cut first. It's exactly right. You know, it's like you, you, you pick up a show called like Immortal because the, the lead character ha has been alive for a thousand years. Uhhuh. And then the first note is, can we make him immortal please? Yes,Michael Jamin:That's exactly right.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. but, and you do it cuz you're like, oh, they just they just picked up the show. They just gave me a budget and Right. But so they, they made a bunch of changes to this show and including changing that entire teaser. But it was, it was just an opportunity that came because again, like I think we had written a pilot for the studio that made it and they needed somebody we, like, we had just gone through, you had a deal,Michael Jamin:You probably had a deal at the time, an overall deal. Right.Jonathan Fener:I don't know if we had it like, you know what we did, I think we had just sold a pilot to like 20th Uhhuh . And it was like a very good experience, but we just, it just was one of those shows that like almost got there but didn't Yeah. But then, then they picked up all their other shows and they're like, oh, we're gonna pick up this show with these guys. And we had a good relationship with the development people that like, you know, maybe John and Josh can help with that. So that was awesome. That was, that was like, and I remember like, we cast whoever we want. Like we changed roles because we found, like I'd never seen Brett Gelman before and he came in and was so funny. We're like, we're putting him in this show somehow. He was easily 10 years older than everybody. Well, was supposed to be a coworker, Uhhuh, , ally Wong came in, we're like, Uhhuh, let's create a intern. But it was like, it, it, it was like, it was the first it was a good gig to get. And then from there we, we got a bunch more of those gigs to sort ofMichael Jamin:Like, see, that's, that's a talent, because a lot of, I think sometimes when you have a no, a young creator will create a show. Then they assign a showrunner, and sometimes the showrunner's like, well, listen, my name's on this too, and I don't want this to have, I don't have a stink on me if this is terrible. So they kind of turn into what they want it to be. It doesn't sound like you did that. It sounds like you were very much trying to realize the vision of the person who created these shows, which is nice of you.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. I mean, I don't, maybe that's just the way that we are. I mean, I just feel like that's the fir like, and I'm, look, by the way, that's probably a good way to get the gig, is to go have lunch with them and go, listen your show, man. We're just here to help you carry the water from here to there. Right. And we know how to do it. And but that it's the truth. I mean, honestly, I like, I don't want it to be bad, but like, you know, and like, I'll tell you what, I think I'll give you my opinion, but also like, again, I don't know anybody that could ever do that, show that job alone. Like, it's, it's miserable and not mis, you know what I mean? And we we owe, and plus, you know, you could relate to this too, just being, I mean, being on a writing staff is collaborative anyway, but being in a writing partnership, you just really learn how to negotiateMichael Jamin:Mm-Hmm. Jonathan Fener:Compromise. Mm-Hmm. and talking it out. And, you know, single writers tend to be really, you knowMichael Jamin:Yeah.Jonathan Fener:Hold onto their stuff cuz there's mm-hmm. Never any other counterpoints. So I feel like we have the right skillset forMichael Jamin:That. Yeah. There's also a sense of, there's so many decisions to be made. If I don't make this one decision, that's okay. I gotta make a million other decisions. So it's okay if I didn't, if I don't make this one decision, you know, there's a lot to do.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. I don't need to be in wardrobe. I always say that. I don't need to be, I don't need, I I you can do rack check. I don't need to do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. There's exactly, there's exactly, there's a ton. I, when we ran Marin, we, the the wardrobe people loved us cuz they chose us choices. And I go, what do you think, you know, well this one. And I said, well, why do you think that one, they gimme reason. I go, all right, sounds like you know what you're doing, . Sounds like you got a good idea there, so let's do what you say.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. I mean how, how many episodes did you do of Maryland?Michael Jamin:We did four seasons. I, I want, it was probably around 50. Cuz each show, each season was, I don't know, whatever, 12, 13 or something like that. Uhhuh . So, yeah. But that was I c and that was a pleasure because it was low budget. They just leave you alone. It was wonderful. So, yeah.Jonathan Fener:And I mean, did you finally that it was, was it hard to produce? Because I mean, how big was your staffMichael Jamin:The first season? So that was a show that was created by this guy Duncan Birmingham. We didn't create it, but he wrote the pilot. He was a young writer. He wrote the presentation and then with Mark, so that season, the first season when they picked it up, it was Mark Marin, who's very good writer, but had no writing experience for sitcoms. He's a, you know, standup, this guy Duncan Birmingham, who was a, a young guy who they just, they they could exploit. So he had no experience and it was me and my partner, and that was it. So we, the ones with any real sitcom experience. And then, but then as each season one, we picked up a couple more writers and then we rounded it out. But but it was a great, it was a wonderful experience, but the budget was tiny. The budget was, it was like nothing. It was nothing. Yeah. And we shot each episode in two and a half days, soJonathan Fener:Really?Michael Jamin:Yeah, it was, yeah. As long as someone's finger wasn't in front of the lens, we got it. , let's move it on. So yeah, that was, that was such a great experience. And, and, and no one remembers that. No one remembers, you know, like, hey, the show, it wasn't that perfectly lit. Yeah, that's okay. But people liked the writing. They like the acting. That's the important thing, you know. So what if the camera went like this a little bit ?Jonathan Fener:Right. my, yeah, my partner always was like, when you're like, he's like, they're doing laundry. They're paying their, they're paying their bills while they watch this. Like, they like the people. Oh,Michael Jamin:Oh, yeah.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. They're like, they're, they're, they're like, they're listening. They're half, you know, they're, they're not,Michael Jamin:Not even anymore. Now they're on their phones and watch. I mean, now they're really not watching the show. . He's Right. Cause like everyone, you know, Siebert, you say the same thing you'd say. Like Yeah, they're, they're reading People magazine, not any anymore. They're not, now they're on, they're watching the show and on TikTok and getting text messages, , they're not paying attention.Jonathan Fener:They're reading the live tweeting. Yeah. Of other people read, likeMichael Jamin:Watching the show for them, so. Right. It's an odd time, but yeah. So what do you s so what do, what excites you then going forward? What, as we, as we wrap it up, what is your, like what excites you now?Jonathan Fener:In entertainment?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Or just, yeah. As a, as a writer. Yeah.Jonathan Fener:I still, I mean, I like what I always liked, honestly. Like, I feel like right now I want to, the thing that I want to do is I, I want to try new things, but I also, I know this is like, but but, but, but also I feel like as I get older, like you have to, you have to always write what's sort of like, I don't know, is like personal to you. Like, I don't know, this is, because then it sort of seems inauthentic. Right? but having said that, like I think that I, I would really like to get back into animation mm-hmm. , I feel, I feel like I, I know it's like, I feel like features, like, like I feel like weirdly streaming has opened that up. Mm-Hmm. a little bit too, cuz like, you know, it's hard to get a movie out in the theaters. I mean, especially now. Yeah. it's not a Marvel thing or something like that. So like, there might be like avenues to go with with streaming movies and stuff like that. But like, I don't know. That's, I mean, it's, it's, it's, I I feel like I don't have any, a good answer to that question because I still really, like, I, I still feel like I always have ideas, Uhhuh, but and, and honestly like more often than not, like I'm looking to collaborate with more people. Yeah. Different people, you know, becauseMichael Jamin:Not necessarily on air talent, but writers as well.Jonathan Fener:Other writers. Yeah. Yeah. I just feel like, you know, if you're lucky you have a long career and mm-hmm. a lot of different types of careers and, you know, my partner and I always said like we we've sort of had an open marriage a little because mm-hmm. , we started out together, we, and, you know, you work very closely with a writing partner and, and we worked together for many, many years and then we sort of split on staff for a while, and then we came back together mm-hmm. for a while, and then now we're separate again. ButMichael Jamin:Was that hard for you when you're writing after you split to start writing alone? Let's say even on staff, cuz this is the first Okay. You usually, you have somebody to bounce an idea off of. Now you're, you're on, you know, you're looking at that blank page by yourself.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. Mm-Hmm. , it's hard to be in that. It's, it's, it's definitely hard. And I feel like I'm getting better at like, sort of reaching out to mm-hmm. other writers and just sort of like, can you look at, because it's like my wife can't hear it anymore, you know? Yeah. Like, go walk into the kitchen. It's like, would this character say that? She's like, I don't know, like, what are you talking about? So I have to, I I I just feel like you have to, I guess you, you learn to sort of like mute your ego a little bit mm-hmm. and just sort of like, let o let other, like, sometimes you just have to talk it out and, and that's what a partner was for, you know. Yeah. but I don't even know if I answered your question. That'sMichael Jamin:Okay. We're just, we're we're chatting. What about, what about advice for aspiring writers? What do you, what do you tell them? Either about the craft or about the business?Jonathan Fener:I mean, to get in nowMichael Jamin:Mm-Hmm. .Jonathan Fener:I think that starting out the, the best thing about now to me mm-hmm. , is that it seemed like in the beginning when we started, it was really all about like, what's the speck of the big show.Michael Jamin:Mm-Hmm. ,Jonathan Fener:Which there's a, there's an art to that, you know, beca
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