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257. Mother Daughter Relationship During Teen Years and Beyond with Sandra Stanley and Allie Stanley Cooney   "Love never fails." 1 Corinthians 13:8a NIV   **Transcription Below**   Sandra Stanley received her Bachelor of Science degree from Georgia Tech and Master of Arts from Dallas Theological Seminary. Sandra has a heart for foster kids and foster families, as she and Andy have been foster parents since 2010. Her ministry passion is promoting foster care in the local church. Much of her time these days is spent working on various writing projects and continuing her involvement with Fostering Together, the foster care initiative of North Point Ministries. Connect with her online:   Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sandrawstanley  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sandra.w.stanley/   X: https://twitter.com/sandrawstanley   Website: https://www.sandrastanley.com/   Allie Stanley Cooney graduated from Auburn University with a degree in Communication. She completed the North Point Residency program and simultaneously earned a Masters of Christian Education degree from Dallas Theological Seminary. With a decade of experience guiding students along their spiritual journeys, Allie is passionate about empowering middle school, high school and college students to embrace a life devoted to following Jesus wholeheartedly. She has a heart for middle school and high school students and can often be spotted at any number of local coffee shops pouring into girls in those seasons of life.   Connect with her on socials: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/alliekaycooney   X: https://twitter.com/alliekaystanley    Questions and Topics We Cover: How can understanding the three potential relationship stages help these daughters navigate relationships with friends and with boys? When we coach our daughters through developing friendships, what questions do you suggest we ask for clarification and what Scripture do you share for understanding our responsibility within friendships? I love how you both emphasize alone time with Jesus. How can we learn and apply this?   Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: 200 Planting Seeds of Faith in Our Children with Courtney DeFeo 196 Parenting for the Relationship with Sandra Stanley   Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: Parenting the Prodigal Child And God's Desire For Redemption With Mother-Daughter Duo, Claire Stanfill and Tindell Baldwin Effective Parenting for Toddlers Through College with Wife, Mother to 8, and The Exchange Founder, Elizabeth Pehrson Intentional Questions to Ask Our Kids with Susan Seay 207 Cultivating Character in Our Children with Cynthia Yanof 212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee 217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler 220 Cultivating Healthy Family Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:08)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:46) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Duggar, and I'm so glad you're here.    Leman Property Management Co. has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.    I am so excited to get to host these guests, Sandra Stanley and her daughter, Allie Stanley Cooney. They have co-authored this amazing book entitled, Meet Me in the Middle, and throughout it I just loved their sense of humor. I appreciated their witty comments that had me laughing in the middle of their stories, but I also appreciate the practicality this book has to offer.   If you think back, Courtney DeFeo was a previous guest and we discussed the treasured Bible study, which is a great thing for mothers to walk through with their tween daughters, maybe girls of approximately ages 10 to 12, so I'll make sure and link that episode in the show notes, but today's book that we're kind of emphasizing is really good as that next step to highlight perhaps with your junior high or high school daughter. It's a beautiful book because you get really both real perspectives of the mother and the daughter from two drastically different angles, and that's kind of what our conversation is gonna look like today as I get to interview mother-daughter duo, Sandra and Allie. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Sandra and Allie.   Sandra Stanley: (1:59 - 2:03) Thank you for having us.    Allie Stanley Cooney: Thank you for having us. We're excited to be here.   Sandra Stanley: We really are.   Laura Dugger: (2:04 - 2:13) Well, I would love for us to just begin with the two of you sharing some of the hardest and sweetest phases that you've walked through in your own mother-daughter relationship.   Sandra Stanley: (2:14 - 4:00) Okay, well, let's see. Allie, this is funny and this kind of weaves through probably every question, but we are wired very differently from each other, and I am more analytical, efficient, organized, you know, all that. Allie is so creative and just spontaneous, and she is the best content creator and all of that kind of stuff, and I obsess over the details of did I capitalize everything and spell everything, and so while that has been amazing in this project working together because we kind of, you know, can just sort of coach each other along in our strengths, there were some times along the way in when she was growing up that that would just naturally cause some clashes, and that is mostly on me because I have a hard time understanding why efficiency didn't make it to the fruits of the spirit list, and you know, in parenting, efficiency is not the goal. The relationship is the goal, and I would switch those sometimes and err on the side of trying to be efficient, so often when we had those difficult times, it was on me, not her, because of all that kind of stuff, so the sweetest part, though, is she has always inspired me.   Even when she was a kid, she just had a maturity and a desire to have an intimate relationship with the Lord from an early, early age, and I think she just challenged Andy and me both in our just our personal walks with the Lord and authenticity and a bunch of things like that, so it's been a sweet relationship, and we pretty much talk all day long.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (4:00 - 4:34) Yeah, I was gonna say the sweetest season, I think, is definitely this one because I had a baby girl about two years ago, and I remember holding my baby girl for the first, second, third time, whatever, and just like, I love her so much, I'm so overwhelmed, and then looking at my mom and being like, wait a minute, you've loved me this much this whole time? Like, that's crazy. So I think getting to be a mom and doing this project together and all the things, I think this season has been definitely one of the sweetest for sure.   Laura Dugger: (4:34 - 5:07) I think that's very encouraging to anybody raising children in their home, but with your book, there were so many topics for mothers and daughters, but I'd love to first focus on this one section that you title, Finding Your People, and it's where you're talking about relationships, especially with friends and with boys, and so Allie, how can understanding the three potential relationship stages help these daughters navigate relationships with friends and with boys?   Allie Stanley Cooney: (5:08 - 7:43) Yeah, definitely, so how our book is laid out, a little bit of context, my mom wrote the first eight chapters to the moms, and then I wrote the back eight chapters to the girls, and we go through these different topics, and one of the topics, like you said, is friends and boys, so when I was thinking about that chapter, there's some, I feel like when you're in middle school, when you're in high school, friends and boys, that's what you're thinking about, that's what you care about, that's what probably you want to read about if you're gonna have to read something, so I wanted to break this down in a way that it's not natural for, you know, middle schoolers and high schoolers to think about, so we break down the three, the three potential stages, stages, that's what I'm looking for, we break down the three stages and let them know that in each stage of a potential relationship, you're called to love, and so the first stage is just before you enter into this relationship, or before you become really close friends, when you're kind of thinking through, is this something I want, is this something that will be good for you, asking the questions like, does this person make me more like Jesus, is this person a good influence, will this person help my life be better, or will it ultimately make it worse, and what does it look like to navigate that season really well, and then the next season is when you're in the relationship, and how can you love that person well while also honoring yourself and honoring that person, and then the last one I think is my favorite, because I think we forget about it potentially, and obviously a lot of our relationships, my best friend that I met in middle school is still one of my very best friends, but a lot of relationships that you have in middle school and in high school, they tend to go away, so there is a stage that is after the relationship, whether that's a breakup, or you just kind of drift apart, whatever that looks like, and the reminder that we're still called to love, because I know culture especially is like, breakup, you should just say horrible things about them, and trash them, and if anybody's friends with them, then you can't be friends with them, and I think the reality is, no, even when the relationship is over, you're still called to love them, and that doesn't mean you need to be with them, or anything like that, but it does mean being kind about them, being thoughtful, being gentle, even when you're no longer in that relationship, so I think that's something that students don't really think about, once the relationship is over, it's like moving on, yeah, you're not called to anything anymore, so yeah.   Laura Dugger: (7:44 - 8:13) I love it, and you really highlight the scripture in 1 Corinthians 13, and so even though your lessons there were directed at daughters, there's something for each of us to learn for relationships, and Sandra, I'd love to hear from your side too, when we're coaching our daughters through developing friendships, what questions do you suggest we ask for clarification, and what scripture do you share for understanding our responsibility within friendships?   Sandra Stanley: (8:14 - 10:28) Yes, great question. Well, and Allie talked about the structure of the book a little bit, you know, that we have eight topics. I write eight to the mom's. She writes eight to the girls, in the middle is the meet me in the middle section, where they come together, and where they can have these conversations, so that's the time when maybe we are talking about, okay, what is a good friend, you know, what does a good friend look like, what are some characteristics of someone that you want to be friends with, and that you want to see every day, and do life together with, what are those characteristics, what makes a lifelong friend, you know, what's the difference between a short-term friend and a long-term friend, what causes friendships to be short-term, you know, what are the things that can cause one to end, and another big question that we talk about is, do you, and do I, and this all applies to us too, not just to the girls, so when we're doing this meet me in the middle section, and having these conversations, this is a two-way conversation, and I think as moms, it's so important for us to be, you know, authentic, and to dive in and say, yeah, I kind of still struggle with this too, but do I want to become more like this potential friend, that's a big question, is there, you know, is this a person that I want to be like, because scripture is clear in Ephesians 5, “He who walks with the wise becomes wise, and companion of fools suffers harm.” That's an important thing to talk about with our kids. You are going to become more like the people that you spend time with. Another question is: Is this somebody I want to introduce my mom and dad to? I remember there were talking with our middle son years, you know, after college, after he was already married. He said, you know, I always knew, this is not a person for me, if I knew it wasn't someone that I would want to bring home and introduce to you and dad, or to Allie. You know, is this somebody that I want Allie to be friends with for the next bunch of decades, so you know, is this somebody I want to introduce my family to, and so we do take a deep dive into 1 Corinthians 13, the love chapter, Allie asked the girls to circle the characteristics of love, I asked the moms, hey, play along, circle the characteristics of love, let's talk about what it really looks like to love, and let's talk about what it really looks like to have friends who are lovely, and who we want to spend more time with.   Laura Dugger: (10:29 - 10:58) There's so much wisdom in that, and then I think one of your secret sauces, just as a family in general, is your practical teaching, and so if we're taking this even further, let's dive in, it's between pages 64 and 65, but there are a few quotes that I'd love for you to unpack, and one of the first ones is, don't trade what you want most for what you want in the moment.   Sandra Stanley: (10:59 - 11:01) Right, right, do you want to talk about that?   Allie Stanley Cooney: (11:01 - 11:43) Yeah, so I think it's really easy, especially when you're in middle school and high school, and you want to be popular, and you don't want to be left out, and you might want to have a boyfriend, and the reality is, if you just zoom back a little bit, you know, it's like, okay, what do you ultimately want? You ultimately want a healthy family, you ultimately want things in the future, and unfortunately, in middle school and high school, there are certain decisions that you can make that can ultimately compromise what you ultimately want, and so I think having that wisdom and that forethought of, why don't you even think about what you want? Like, have you ever sat down and thought about what you want in your future?   Let's do that together, and then back it up from there, and then see if you're making decisions that will lead to that.   Sandra Stanley: (11:44 - 12:55) Yeah, I think so, and the good thing about the book is moms can contextualize some of this to the age of their daughters, so if it's an older daughter, and she's in a relationship where, you know, there's likely to be some struggle with, you know, how far do I go physically, you know, what are my standards going to be, is all that, to relate to all that, this particular quote is such an important thing to talk about.   Don't trade what you want most for what you might want in the moment, and that speaks, you know, really loudly to a physical relationship, and one of the good things about doing this meet-me-in-the-middle-with-a-daughter is you can have these conversations ahead of time, before there's a face, you know, that we're talking about, or a particular boyfriend or friendship. We can have these conversations early, and then when these things come, we can go back and go, hey, remember what we talked about, about don't trade what you want most for what you want in the moment? Let's just, I want you to go on this date, but I want you to remember that, you know, the decisions that you're gonna make now, they're gonna impact what your future is gonna be like, and the story that you're gonna tell, so that was, that was just kind of what we were, had in our minds as we talked about, don't trade what you want most for what you want in the moment.   Laura Dugger: (12:55 - 13:06) Well, then you follow it up with, don't let your future be negatively influenced by people who won't even be in your future, and I think that kind of...   Allie Stanley Cooney: (13:07 - 13:41) I remember that clicking when I was in high school. I remember, I was dating a guy, and I was like, no, I don't want to marry him, like, no, like, that'd be crazy. What?   And then I'm like, why am I dating him? Like, yeah, I don't want anything, I don't want my friendships impacted, like, I don't want to push my friendships away because I'm spending more time with him. Like there's so many things other than just physical boundaries, which obviously that's a huge one too.   But even aside from that, people who aren't going to be in your life long-term do have the potential to affect your future. So I think that's a really important one too.   Sandra Stanley: (13:41 - 14:28) And affect the relationships that you want to carry into your future. Your good friends, you know, the people that you want to spend time with. So that's a really important one, I think.   And these are great conversation topics. You know, even if you write it on a card and hand it to your daughter and say, hey, let's talk about what this looks like. Don't let your future be negatively influenced by people who won't even be in your future.   And this is where the mom in the conversation that they're having in the meet me in the middle section can talk about a relationship that she can remember having that she thought was going to be forever. And it was, you know, seven months of her life. And then it was over.   So having those opportunities to have these conversations with our girls is so important. And these two particular quotes are really important to talk about ahead of time.   Laura Dugger: (14:29 - 14:52) Certainly. And it just circles back to even Allie, those three things that you were talking about earlier, those three stages, your conclusion in that section is love never fails. And so if we actually are loving in the way the list of first Corinthians 13 love list, then that is hopefully going to set our daughters and us as mothers up for success.   Sandra Stanley: (14:52 - 14:53) Absolutely.   Laura Dugger: (14:54 - 16:57) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. With over 1,700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, Washington, and Canton. And with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Co.   They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to the OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. 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Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@LemanProps.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com.   That's L-E-M-A-N properties.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today.    And Sandra, would you mind just setting the scene, take us back to that day that you walked into your sweet daughter's messy room?   Sandra Stanley: (16:59 - 19:08) Which time? So, this is so funny, and it goes back to how we're wired so differently. I have a place for everything and everything has its place, and I clean up as I go, and all of that kind of stuff, and my sweet, creative daughter just operates differently.   But that manifests itself in a messy room, which really wasn't okay. And growing up, obviously, we want to teach our children just good habits and being tidy and all the things that are gonna serve them well later. So there was one particular day, she was at school, and I had been in her room doing something and realized, wow, this is kind of off the chart messy.   And so when she gets home, we're gonna have to have a conversation about this whole thing. So fast forward, we get to the afternoon, Allie's upstairs, and I know she's up there in her room, so this will be a good time. And I wasn't always the best at picking my approach or my timing, but I did work on it.   So by the time she was in high school, I think I was better maybe at that. She might not think so. But anyway, so anyway, so I walk in her room and I look, and she's sitting on the floor, just furiously typing.   And she goes, mom, before I can even say anything, mom, my girls are going into high school, I'm getting ready to leave to go to college, and there's just some things I need them to know. So I'm writing Allie's rules for high school. And she said, let me read them to you.   So she starts reading this list. And with every single one, my heart just started, I mean, I just started melting into the messy floor with her because I thought this is so much more important. If I were to describe the bullseye on the target in parenting, it would have nothing to do with the clean room.   It would have everything to do with the character of her heart. And as she was writing and reading me these rules, I thought this is Allie's heart on display. And it just kind of was a life changing moment for me.   And then I asked her if I could put it on my blog. I was actively blogging at the time. And she's like, sure, nobody will see it.   So you can put it on your blog.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (19:09 - 19:09) Cute little blog.   Sandra Stanley: (19:09 - 19:37) And as it turned out, it went viral and was all over the place and radio shows in the mornings and all that. On the first day of school, back to school in Fulton County in Atlanta, there was the Burt Show, I think it's still show, Burt Show, a radio show, drive time show. And he was reading them, reading them off.   And everybody in his studio was all commenting on each one of them. So as all of Fulton County is driving to school, Allie's rules for high school were being read to them.   Laura Dugger: (19:38 - 19:45) Wow. I mean, I guess knowing the list, it doesn't surprise me that it would go viral.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (19:46 - 19:48) And I- Surprised me, for sure, yeah.   Laura Dugger: (19:49 - 19:59) Well, I envision mothers and daughters even listening to this conversation together. I do wonder if my daughters would love to pause and go back and say, remember, mark of good parenting is not a clean room.   Sandra Stanley: (20:00 - 20:03) So- Right, they're gonna bookmark that statement, yeah.   Laura Dugger: (20:04 - 20:10) I was guilty of that too, growing up. But Allie, would you be willing to share some of those rules with us?   Allie Stanley Cooney: (20:10 - 21:44) Yeah, no, I'd love to. Well, I will say, so I was going into high school as the small group girls that I was leading. No, no, sorry, I was going into college while the small group girls I was leading were going into high school.   And there was just a lot of things I wanted them to know and to remember and things we had talked about and things that maybe I had learned the hard way or watched my friends learn the hard way. So I will say, hearing them go, like I didn't write them for everybody to hear them. You didn't write them for a universal audience.   No, I think I would have written them differently, but it's sweet now and I'm glad. So I'll just read a couple. I won't do all of them because there's 20 in the book.   But one, surround yourself with people who build you up, not with people who tear you down. Have an accountability partner and be willing to tell her everything. Emphasis on her.   Yep, be so, so, so, so, so, so careful about who you date. This one's my favorite. I don't know why, I just, I really, this one hits home.   If you're wondering if you should break up with him, break up with him. That's the one I learned the hard way. Yep.   Pray, pray, pray. Don't ever forget how much you need God. Have a quiet time.   It may seem like a hassle, but it will help you stay close to God. Be nice to your parents. They love you and want what's best for you.   So if you disagree with them, just remember that they're a lot smarter than you. Sorry about that. Never be afraid to say no.   When you fall on your face, get back up. There's a bunch more, but the last one is one of my favorites and it's selfies are for faces. That sounds like a good one.   Sandra Stanley: (21:44 - 21:49) That was such an insightful one just for girls to hear. Silly. You know, you do a face, a face.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (21:49 - 21:52) I mean, it was mostly like an inside joke.   Sandra Stanley: (21:52 - 22:03) So there were several that were inside jokes for them, which didn't make fun and didn't make a lot of sense on the radio to drive time in Fulton County, but they made it all funny and fun.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (22:03 - 22:05) So that's a couple of them.   Laura Dugger: (22:05 - 22:17) I actually thought that was one of my favorites as well. It was put in a succinct way. And at that time, you were just a few years ahead of them.   And so hearing that from you lands differently than hearing that from mom.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (22:18 - 22:18) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (22:19 - 22:35) But Allie, you're kind of explaining, it was one of those decisions, if you reverse back a little bit, can you share, you write that it was one of the best decisions to grow your faith. And it's something pretty replicable that I'm hoping others will grasp onto as well.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (22:35 - 23:12) No, and that was, if I'm remembering correctly, what I wrote in there, there's a couple of things, but deciding to be a middle school small group leader when I was in high school was probably the best decision I made for my faith because it caused me to take it really seriously. It made me realize, oh, the decisions I make aren't just going to affect me, it's actually now gonna affect these girls. I remember having a moment where I realized, okay, I don't wanna make any decision where I'm gonna be tempted to lie to these girls about it.   Cause you know, middle school girls, they asked me everything.   Sandra Stanley: (23:13 - 23:13) No boundaries.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (23:13 - 23:46) And they were all in my business. And so realizing like, okay, I don't wanna make a decision where if they ask me, which they will, I don't want to be tempted to lie to them. So what did those decisions look like?   What would I be proud to tell them? And ultimately what decisions do I want them to make when they're in high school? So it not only drew me a lot closer to Jesus, cause they also would ask me theological questions and like faith questions.   And I was like, I don't know, let me dive in. But also it was a really cool accountability that I really loved having in high school.   Sandra Stanley: (23:47 - 24:21) This is really one of the things that we've done for a long time in our church. And that is allow our high school students to partner with an adult to lead these small groups. And it just has, it has impacted all three of our kids in their faith journey.   And again, to Allie's point, a big part of it is accountability. Like, oh my goodness, I don't want my girls or my guys to, I don't wanna do something that's gonna cause me to either have to lie or that would be disappointing to them. And so I think it was a, I think it's a great part of the program, yeah.   But so volunteering, always huge.   Laura Dugger: (24:22 - 24:32) Agreed. And to get our students into ministry where they get to experience leadership early on, I think that's so profoundly impactful for faith.   Sandra Stanley: (24:32 - 24:33) That's exactly right, yes.   Laura Dugger: (24:34 - 24:59) Well, and something else that both of you emphasize, which I especially appreciated, was spending alone time with Jesus. And Allie, you were saying that we have to incorporate foundational beliefs and practices into our lives, specifically through two steps, learning and applying. So, will you elaborate on both of those parts?   Allie Stanley Cooney: (25:00 - 26:11) Yeah, so I, yeah, I mean, that's how we grow our faith. We can't have a faith if we don't know anything, and then we can't really have a faith if we're not putting what we know into practice. So, the learning really just looks like reading your Bible.   You know, it looks like it's those really obvious, quote unquote, steps. If you go to church, you've listened to the message and you take in the information about Jesus and about scripture and about God and about who you are and about who people are, and that's you're learning. You have to learn, you have to take in the information.   And then the second one is when you put it into practice, you know, you actually live out what scripture says, you live out what you're learning in church, you love the people around you well, you root yourself and establish yourself in the love of Jesus and who he says you are, and you walk in your identity. So, it's so multifaceted and there's a lot to it, but ultimately, if you can break it down and tell the girls, hey, we learn, and then we take what we learn and we do it, and that's how you grow your faith. And even when it gets hard, you keep going.   And even when people push back, you keep doing it, you keep learning, and you keep applying. And ultimately, that's how your faith grows.   Sandra Stanley: (26:12 - 26:20) And that is how a Jesus follower consistently follows Jesus. So, it's such an important thing. Yeah, absolutely.   Laura Dugger: (26:21 - 26:52) Well, and even one example of that, you first of all say, keep continually putting truth in front of you, but then you go a step further and you say, well, even before that, spend a little bit of time thinking about the best way to keep truth in front of you. And you challenge readers to consider the routines and rhythms of their normal day and see where they can put important truths in. So, do either of you have an example of how you do that in your own life?   Allie Stanley Cooney: (26:53 - 27:54) Yeah, and it's looked really different throughout my life. And I think I wanna give permission to these girls that it's okay if it looks different than somebody else, because we learn and we feel close to our heavenly father in different ways than everybody else and in different seasons of life. So, I remember when I was in middle school, I had a devotional, and it was very story-based.   It was like made up stories, but it had something to learn at the end of it. It had a moral and it was always Jesus-centered, and it was always about simple things like generosity and gratitude. And reading stories for me was how I connected with God.   And then as I got older, I started reading scripture for myself and I'm a huge journaler. So now my time looks a lot like reading scripture and journaling and then journaling some more and then reading scripture. And that's kind of where I find my time with the Lord.   Yeah, but it's definitely changed over time.   Sandra Stanley: (27:54 - 31:31) I would say that mine has changed in different seasons of life too. When you're single and you've got lots of flexibility and time, it really looked one way for me. It was morning and it was longer and all of that.   In the parenting seasons, it looked different throughout that journey when the little ones, I would try to get up before them and try to get my quiet time in, but it really did. It ebbed and flowed in the amount of time I was able to spend and all of that. In this season, I have more time.   And for me, it's always been better in the morning. I know some people are better at night and that's fine. For me, it's been morning, and I just have to have my space, my particular place that I go with all my quiet time materials there.   And when I'm there, it just, the distractions are minimal. And that's because that's just my place to be alone with my heavenly father. I've got a little spot to pray and a spot to sit and read and study.   And so that's what it looks like for me. I am so often asked by moms; do we make our kids have a quiet time? Do I make my middle school son or my middle school daughter or high school daughter have a quiet time?   And I always say, no, you don't need to make them do it. But I suggest three things. You model it, you encourage it, and you make it easy.   You model it, you encourage it and make it easy. So, I, my kids saw me and Andy having quiet times their whole childhood. And again, it looked different, different seasons, but they knew that we both spent time in the word and in prayer.   And that just modeled it for them. So, it was something that they just grew up kind of assuming is a given, which is a good thing, but you can also encourage it. And that's one of the things that we did was we just helped them as they got older, figure out what does this look like for you?   You know, what kind of, are you a morning person? Are you an evening person? Is this gonna be, you know, just helping them figure out best times and best practices and all that for their personality and temperaments.   And then making it easy. We always made sure our kids had age-appropriate Bibles in every season, starting when they couldn't even read little picture Bibles that were their own. We wanted them to have their own Bible and never remember a time that they didn't have their own.   And so we just made sure that, you know, different seasons of their lives, they had age appropriate Bibles. And one of the things that I did, and this is just a kind of a, maybe a little fun thing, their Easter baskets every year, while, you know, it always had some chocolate bunnies, you know, and all the normal Easter basket things, I always made sure that there were quiet time tools in their Easter basket that were age appropriate and, you know, proclivity appropriate based on what they liked. And, you know, one of our sons was a reader, one wasn't so much a reader, but if it was about an athlete and the athlete's testimony, they would both read that.   So, I would put all kinds of different things for Allie, journaling stuff, pens, colored pencils, just anything that I thought would encourage their journey in a quiet time. That was my big time to do that. And then of course, other times of the year, we would add some things, but model it, encourage it, make it easy.   And that's the best way to set your kids up to maybe make this as a habit. And even when they don't, nagging isn't gonna help, so don't nag, you know, don't nag under the guise of I'm just reminding them, but model it, encourage it in the appropriate ways and then make it easy.   Laura Dugger: (31:31 - 31:48) And I even thought there was additional practical wisdom that you shared within that section, just encouraging the mamas, guard your time. And how do you see that intentionality tying over into our time with the Lord?   Sandra Stanley: (31:48 - 34:00) Definitely it ties over. I think, you know, as we think about motherhood and Allie is experiencing this now, there's a whole other layer of busyness that gets added to your life. It's almost like the things on your calendar double.   And then as they get older, it's even more and more intense as they get older, because everybody, you know, has jobs. So, in this season with these moms of middle school and high school girls, they might be having their first little jobs or and your other kids also. So anyway, it's just a busy season and our time is limited.   So, we always say, Andy and I say this all the time to parents, your time is limited. So, you've got to limit what you do with your time. And when you make it a priority to have that time alone with your heavenly father, that's one of your biggest yeses.   And then they're just going to be some no's in different seasons. I call them categorical no's in different seasons of parenting. When the kids were little, I had all these categories of things that are just a no for now.   This might be a yes for later. It's a no for now. So, things like I'm doing now, like writing projects or speaking, or, you know, just stuff like that were no's when my kids were young, because those are so time consuming.   And so those were no for now, but not forever categories of things. So, I would say to moms and to daughters, you know, your time is limited. So, you've got to limit it.   And so, you know, pay attention to what the most important things are. And I would say, go so far as to say calendar those things, put those things on your calendar and treat them like appointments. Because typically the mom is the calendar keeper for the whole family.   And what we put on our calendars, what we actually do. And so I've always used my calendar that way to make sure that the most important things are on the calendar, even little things like call my grandmother, you know, back during those seasons, because I would get busy and, you know, two weeks would go by and, you know, I knew my time with her was limited. So just even little things like that I've always calendared.   And I think our quiet time may be something we need to calendar and give it a time slot. And, you know, for me, again, I'm the efficiency person. So that just works for me.   That doesn't necessarily mean that's for everybody, but it works for me.   Laura Dugger: (34:00 - 34:23) I think that's so good, Sandra. Thank you for sharing. And the two of you wrote about a couple really helpful words in a different section that was titled Family is Forever.   So, can you speak to the roles that gentleness and gratitude play in creating an enjoyable family culture? Yes.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (34:23 - 34:31) Yeah, well, I feel like a lot of girls feel like they don't have a lot of control within their family dynamics.   Sandra Stanley: (34:31 - 34:34) So, this was the topic on family in the book.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (34:34 - 36:07) So, you don't choose your family. You're not choosing what you're having for dinner. You're not choosing your curfew or your classes.   A lot of times in that season, it can feel like there's no control. And so, I wanted to give the girls a couple things that, hey, you do have a choice in these and you do control these as far as it depends on you. And so those things were appreciation, forgiveness, and gentleness.   So, appreciation, you can choose to appreciate your family. You can choose to appreciate your mom. You can choose to say thank you to the people around you for what they do.   Forgiveness, you choose to forgive. And then gentleness. This came a lot from my relationship with my brothers specifically.   How is the youngest of three? Of the youngest, I have two older brothers, and they were mean. Not gentle.   They were mean. And so, learning like, hey, they want you to respond in aggression. They want you to get angry.   That's kind of- They want a reaction. They want a reaction from you. And so responding in gentleness is actually how you deescalate the situation.   And I think that those things, it kind of gives girls like, oh, I'm not totally helpless. I'm not totally out of control. I can actually choose these things and I can choose to do them or not.   And I can see how it positively affects the family or if I choose not to do them, how it negatively affects the family. And we all have ownership in the family culture and vibes and feelings. And so, I think that helps the girls kind of have a grasp on something in their family.   Laura Dugger: (36:08 - 38:01) That's so good. And even, not that either one is more important for the other, but I really was thinking that sets children apart if they are grateful. And that sets parents apart if they are gentle and both are obviously encouraged in the Bible.   So I just thought that was incredible how you drew that out.    Do you love The Savvy Sauce? Do you gain anything when you listen?   Did you know that the two ways we earn money to keep this podcast live is through generous contributions from listeners and from our paying sponsors? That means we can promote your business and you're still supporting The Savvy Sauce. It's a win-win.   Please email us today at info@thesavvysauce.com to inquire about pricing for sponsoring each episode. Thank you for your consideration. And Sandra, you've been a previous guest.   I'll make sure and link to that episode in the show notes. That was about parenting, even starting with younger age children, which was wonderful. But Allie, this is my first time getting to meet you.   So, I'll share with you too. Your dad was actually my first pastor after I became a believer. So, I remember him preaching a series on better decisions, fewer regrets.   And he would challenge us to ask ourselves a question. I think I'm getting this right. In light of my past experiences, my current circumstances and my future hopes and dreams, what's the wise thing to do?   And so, as we're nearing the close of our conversation, would you like to share, after absorbing all this information from the conversation and from your book, now what? What is the wise thing to do?   Allie Stanley Cooney: (38:01 - 39:57) Yeah, so our last chapter is on decision-making because I do think all of it kind of points to the decisions and we point back to Philippians 4, where Paul is saying, now put it into practice. Everything you've learned, everything you've seen, all of these things, it's time to put it into practice. And so, pointing these girls and pointing these moms to stop in a moment and ask themselves exactly what you just said.   Okay, in spite of my past and my present and my future, what is the wise thing to do? What is the thing that will lead to healthier relationships? What is the thing that will lead to less regret in the future?   And I think it's even just a choice to stop and just ask that, because a lot of times we just go, go, go. We don't have time to stop to really think through anything, but the idea of, okay, before we make a decision, let's actually stop and ask ourselves, what is the wise thing to do? And it's not always gonna be popular.   It's not always gonna be easy. And sometimes you might be the only one doing it, but I know in my experience, and even when I was in high school, I went to public school, so I was surrounded by a lot of people who weren't making the wisest decisions and they were my friends and realizing, okay, I'm gonna, even though it's not popular, even though they might laugh at me, even though this might not go well for me, I know what I want my future to look like and therefore I'm gonna do the right thing. I'm gonna say no, or I'm gonna say yes, or I'm gonna do whatever I know the right thing to do is and just trust that it's gonna be okay and trust that my close friends will stick by me and my family will stick by me and they'll be proud of me. And so I think it's hard to do in the moment, but if you have that filter and if you stop and ask, then I think it's really, really great for you and your future.   Sandra Stanley: (39:58 - 41:46) And for moms and daughters to have this question in their back pocket as these things roll out, as hard decisions come along, it's just really important to ask what is the wise thing to do? And I think an approach for parenting in general, but especially for these moms of middle and high school girls, an approach and part of a conversation is, hey, Allie, I love you so much. And my goal is for you to get to the end of these middle school years or the end of these high school years with as few regrets as possible.   So, we're gonna get in the habit of asking this question, what is the wise thing for me to do? What is the wise thing for me to do in this situation? And the second question we talk about in that decision-making chapter is what story do I wanna tell?   When all of this is said and done, when this decision, even this one decision, when this is over and I'm on the other side of it, what is the story that I will want to tell? I think I'm gonna make that decision based on that. So those two questions, what is the wise thing to do and what story am I gonna wanna tell?   Those are big, big conversation pieces for moms and daughters to have and for moms and kids in general and dads and families to have, what's the wise thing to do and what story do you wanna tell? Because we wanna get them to a place where they have as few regrets as possible and God can certainly use our regrets, He can use our stuff. We're not gonna be perfect.   We are not gonna always get it right and we're not always gonna make the wise decision. And I think us being honest and chatting with our kids about decisions we didn't make that were the right ones that we might carry a little bit of baggage around on at the appropriate time and in the appropriate way, we can have those conversations with our kids and let them know, hey, I'm not perfect and I'm not expecting you to be perfect but let's get in the habit of asking these questions because they will cause us to have fewer regrets on the other side.   Laura Dugger: (41:47 - 41:53) So, good and it really puts you on the same team which you are when you're having these conversations.   Sandra Stanley: (41:53 - 42:18) And sometimes your kids don't feel that. They don't feel like we're on their team. They feel like we aren't because we don't want them to have fun or we don't want them to have freedom or whatever.   And it really does. These conversations do emphasize, hey, I am on your team and I am only saying no to this because I am so for you. And I think these conversations set us up for that.   Laura Dugger: (42:19 - 42:27) Well, you've shared some wise questions. Would you also be willing to share the prayer that Allie, I believe you prayed through high school?   Allie Stanley Cooney: (42:28 - 42:36) Yes, the prayer is give me the wisdom to know what's right and the courage to do what's right, even when it's hard and even when I have to do it by myself.   Sandra Stanley: (42:36 - 43:23) We started praying that for our kids before they even knew what we were saying. When they were toddlers, we were praying this prayer with them. And as they got older, that's when we tacked on the end, even if I'm the only one, even if I'm doing it by myself.   Because as you get older and you get into middle school and high school, sometimes you feel like you're the only one. And we celebrated like crazy when we caught our kids making a hard decision and especially if they were the only one. So, when we saw them making wise decisions, we didn't always catch it, but if we did, we wanted them to know this is to be celebrated because what's rewarded is repeated.   And we wanted to reward our kids for making those tough decisions. And I think Allie carried that on with her all the way through, so.   Laura Dugger: (43:24 - 43:36) Love that so much. And really, it's such a joy to learn from both of you. Can you tell us where to go after this conversation where we can continue learning from the wisdom of each of you?   Sandra Stanley: (43:36 - 43:56) Thank you. Yeah, the book is anywhere that you buy books, you know, on Amazon, all of the different places where you buy books. My website, sandrastanley.com has lots of links. Instagram, Allie Kay Cooney, yeah. So we're talking about it a lot these days, just in the season of talking about maybe in the middle.   Laura Dugger: (43:57 - 44:13) Love it. Well, you may know that I have one final question for you because we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for each one of you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Sandra Stanley: (44:14 - 45:04) You go. Okay, I'll start first. I think, Laura, it really is my calendar dictates my life.   But again, that's kind of a personality thing. But for me, if I don't get it on my calendar, it may or may not get done. So for me to put the biggest, most important things on my calendar, it just makes life more smooth for me.   So, I use my calendar for everything. There was a season where I even calendared exercise because it was a crazy season. I thought if I don't put it on here, I'm not gonna do it.   I have a rhythm with that now, so it's a little bit easier. But even things like making sure I'm checking in with my mom and dad, because they are in there getting to their late eighties and, you know, just little reminders of things that are most important that I don't wanna miss, that are easy to miss when I get busy, I just use my calendar for everything.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (45:05 - 45:51) Yeah, I think, I don't know if this is exactly what you mean, but recently, I wanna be off my phone more because it's just everyone's addicted to their phone. So, I got this thing called a brick, and I saw it on Instagram, ironically. But you can tap your phone onto it, and it basically shuts down any app other than whatever apps you want.   And the whole thing is you're turning your phone back into a tool and not a distraction. And it's pretty much changed my life. Because I'll sleep with it on brick, and then so I can't wake up and just like be on my phone.   So, then I have to like intentionally undo it to go on Instagram or do whatever. And then I just keep it bricked. And so, I'm not just scrolling, and it's been really, really helpful.   Laura Dugger: (45:52 - 46:21) I love it, those are so wonderful. And God has just blessed both of you with so many gifts, but I'm seeing so much wisdom, so much beauty in both of you, but your generosity to share because you have a unique family situation and are very well known. And yet you just are giving of yourselves through the time here, through the knowledge and wisdom that you shared in your book.   So, I want to say thank you for a thousand things, but thank you for being my guest today.   Sandra Stanley: (46:21 - 46:26) Thank you for having us. We really appreciate it. This was very fun.   Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (46:27 - 49:41) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

I have been looking forward to talking with our guest, Louise Baxter, for several months. I met Louise through one of our regular podcast guest finders, accessiBe's own Sheldon Lewis. Louise has always lived in Sydney Australia although she has done her share of traveling around the world. She attended some college at night although she never did complete a college degree. Don't let that prejudice you, however. Her life experiences and knowledge rival anyone whether they have a college degree or not.   While attending college Louise worked in clerical positions with some marketing firms. Over time she attained higher positions and began working as a brand or product manager for a number of large well-known companies.   At some point she decided that she wanted to bring a more human-service orientation to her work and left the commercial world to work in not for profit organizations. Part of her work was with the Starlight Foundation in Australia, but she didn't feel she was challenged as much as she wanted to be. So, in 2007 she left Starlight, but in 2009 the Starlight board convinced her to come back as the CEO of the organization.   Louise has brought an extremely positive thinking kind of management style to her work. Starlight in general has to be quite positive as it works to ease the burden of sick children in hospitals and at home. You will get to hear all about Captain Starlight and all the many ways the foundation Louise directs has such a positive impact on sick children around Australia. The life lessons Louise discusses are relevant in any kind of work. I am certain you will come away from this episode more inspired and hopefully more positive about your own life and job.       About the Guest:   LOUISE BAXTER is Chief Executive Officer, Starlight Children's Foundation. Louise has significant experience in senior roles in the commercial and NFP sectors and is described as an “inspiring and authentic leader”. In 2009 Louise returned to the NFP sector as Starlight's Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director. Louise's focus on exceptional experiences and relationships has seen improved metrics across all areas of Starlight. Louise is regularly asked to speak on topics such a positivity, organisational resilience, diversity, and innovation. She is passionate about the creation of organisational purpose and believes this is key to delivering maximum impact through people. She practices positive leadership and has been successful in developing high performing teams within a culture where change is embraced, and innovation is embedded.   Always thinking like a marketer…. Louise's personal journey and reasons behind the shift from corporate to the For Purpose sector. After more than 20 years in marketing and advertising in roles at ARNOTTS, Accor & Johnson & Johnson & in agencies such as Leo Burnett working on brands from Mortein to Coco pops, Louise's journey and the insights she brings as CEO are unique. The very first time Louise became aware of Starlight was actually doing a promotion for one of her clients (when she was in sales/marketing) who was partnering with Starlight. Just seeing the work of Starlight, made her feel so pleased that there was now something that changed and reframed the hospitalization and treatment experience for families like a family she knew as a child with a child suffering from leukemia.    The business acumen needed to thrive and succeed in the For Purpose sector. Often the perception is NFP is a step into the slow lane. Far from it. Louise refers to leading Starlight as if it is in ‘eternal start up mode' and bringing business acumen, finding ways to be efficient and driving growth.     Our business… is the business of brightening lives…. The business growth and success of Starlight since she began from 65 people & 120,000 positive experiences delivered to children, to a team of more than 300 delivering over 1million++ positive Starlight experiences to seriously ill children including more than 13,000 children's Starlight wishes granted.   Louise has lead Starlight through some of the most challenging times. Her positive impact has seen Starlight grow from strength to strength. Starlight enjoys a tremendously creative and innovative culture. Including ‘Most Innovative Company' accolade - an achievement which was achieved under Louise's Leadership.   Starlight Programs growth will be stronger over the next 3 years than it would have been without Covid as programs which Transform and Connect rebuild and programs which Entertain grow. As does fundraising as we layer our face-to-face events back over our digital innovations which have taken off.  We have our creative/innovative culture to thank for this. Stories of personal connections made with Starlight children & families who began their journey more than 20 years ago and flourished thanks to the work of Starlight, including now adults Nathan Cavaleri and Dylan Allcott OAM.   Over the years Louise has been personally involved in many of Starlight's fundraising campaigns, once literally putting her body on the line as she flew over the handlebars and was carried away from the cycling course injured on Great Adventure Challenge.     Storytelling is at the heart of Starlight's success, growth & behind the organisations' ability to connect its stakeholders to its purpose. Louise's has largely led this approach to drive advocacy, differentiation & brand recognition – now one of Australia's most recognised children's charities Passionate about DEI: One of the first things Louise did as CEO was to deliberately approach diversity at Starlight and this continues today. To effectively support the people & families we support, our team members need to reflect this. DEI is addressed at every level.. Inc Board & Exec split to Captains in SER.    Louise considers herself very lucky – her birthday is actually on International Women's Day: IWD, 8 March. She is an active member of Chief Executive Women, an advocate for female empowerment & equity and in incredible role model.   Ways to connect with Louise:   Starlight Children's Foundation Australia Website: www.starlight.org.au Louise Baxter's LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/louisebaxter   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone. Welcome once again to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. It's a fun thing to say I am your host. Mike Hingson, our guest today is the CEO of the starlight foundation in Australia, Louise Baxter, we met Louise through Sheldon Lewis and accessibe, which is always fun. Sheldon is a good supplier of folks, and we can't complain a bit about that. It's a good thing. And so today we're going to learn about Starlight Foundation, and we're going to learn about Louise, and we'll see what else we learned. That's why it's often called the unexpected. Meet anyway, Louise, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Louise Baxter ** 02:04 Thank you, Michael, it's lovely to be here.   Michael Hingson ** 02:08 Well, why don't we start the way I love to start. Why don't you tell us kind of about the early Louise growing up and some of those sorts of things and adventures you got into, or anything that you want to divulge? Okay,   Louise Baxter ** 02:20 alright. Well, I live in Sydney, Australia, and have done my whole life I've traveled a lot, but I've remained here in Sydney. And so life in Sydney was just blissful. And I think what I remember most is just having fun with my friends. It was back in the day where, as a child, you'd leave home on your bike early in the morning, and nobody expected you back till later, often in the afternoon, before dinner, and we had Bush nearby. I can remember catching tadpoles I sailed from the age of eight. My father was a skiff sailor here in Australia and and I had my first time in a Sabo at age eight, we went to the beach a lot, so there was surfing and fun in the sun. I played a lot of sports. So I'm a netball player, which is kind of similar to basketball, but a bit different. I played squash, so a lot of things happening, a very busy life, and I grew up. And I think this is the important thing with parents who were not well off themselves, but were, I mean, we were. We had a lovely life, but they were always raising funds, and our house was a center for raising funds for people who were less fortunate, or that helping out with the local netball club and things like that. So, so I grew up with parents who were very committed to working hard but always giving back, even though they weren't, you know, high net worth people themselves. So I think that's, you know, a great basis for for who I am today.   Michael Hingson ** 04:18 So you went to school and and all those sorts of things like everybody else did. How did your attitude about dealing with people who were probably less fortunate than many and so on really affect what you did in school? Or did you really sort of hone that found that that that spirit later? No,   Louise Baxter ** 04:42 no, I was always involved at school and raising funds. And even, you know, it took us a couple of busses to get to the beach back in the day. So I was in a local youth group, and we made a decision to raise the funds so that we could have one of the fathers, so that we could. Buy a bus, have one of the fathers drive the bus and get us to the beach on Saturday in quick time. So always looking for ways to never taking no or that's hard for an answer, I suppose, always being able to be part of the solution and get things done. So that was happening while I was at school as well.   Michael Hingson ** 05:21 That's kind of cool. So you bought a bus so that everybody could get to the beach. How many people were there that had to get there and use the bus? We   Louise Baxter ** 05:28 had about 40 or 50 people. And during the school holidays, we convinced one of the, a couple of the parents to take us on a trip through far west into, I'm supposing, what into our outback. So we went into kind of desert type lands, and we camped and a shearing a sheep station let us sleep in the shearing sheds overnight. So that was quite an adventure as well. And we did that for one school holidays on that bus.   Michael Hingson ** 06:02 So was the the bus? Well, who owned the bus was it? Was it a school bus, or who owned it   Louise Baxter ** 06:09 the youth group that we, the group did fundraising? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 06:13 cool, yeah. That's pretty unique.   Louise Baxter ** 06:17 I have great memories of that with, you know, green tree frogs in the toilets. Whenever you went to use a bathroom, they were always there looking at you and all of those kind of funny things that you remember, you know, watching and learning farm life and seeing some of the animals sitting on the fence while they were being branded and castrated and all kinds of things, but from as a city kid that was that was really valuable,   Michael Hingson ** 06:47 pretty and unique, but certainly the experience was well worth it, as long as you embraced   Speaker 1 ** 06:53 it. Yes, exactly, yeah. So   Michael Hingson ** 06:57 does that bus still exist today? Or does the youth group still exists now with new youth, that's a very long time ago. Michael, well, I didn't know whether it might have continued with new youth,   Louise Baxter ** 07:07 no. And I, you know, moved locations in Sydney, so I'm not quite sure what's happening there. Now, it'd   Michael Hingson ** 07:14 be exciting if new youth came along and took it over, but yeah, things happen and things evolve.   Louise Baxter ** 07:22 I'm just gonna say their parents probably drive them everywhere now. Yeah, it's   Michael Hingson ** 07:26 gonna say probably the adventure isn't quite the same as it used to be. No   Louise Baxter ** 07:30 exactly,   Michael Hingson ** 07:31 and, and that has its pluses, I suppose, and its minuses, but there, there are also more scary things in one sense in the world now than there used to be. Don't you think,   Louise Baxter ** 07:43 yeah, there are, well, there could be, or maybe, maybe we know more about it now because of our media and communications. So you know, all the kind of predators that impact you as children were around then, I suppose the accidents in cars are up because use of cars has increased. So, yeah, there are. There are different things that impact people nowadays. But us human beings, we're pretty resilient and and we always work out a way through, yeah, well, there's also, there's also a story from my childhood that I think is very relevant for what I do at Starlight, and that story is that you know how you have those family friends, who you grow up with, and you go on holidays with, etc. Well, that family for us, their eldest son was diagnosed with cancer, and back then, survival rates for cancer were very different to what they are today, and much lower. And he died when I was about 12, but as a child, I observed him suffering the pain of the treatment, and there was nothing like Starlight back then. And I saw also the impact that his illness had on his family. And I often think back to him, to those moments now that I'm at Starlight, because Starlight would have changed that situation and made it very different and far more positive for that boy and his family, and I think about about him and what they went through kind of regularly. So it's one of those things that's a childhood. It's a lived experience from my childhood, which, you know still kind of resonates with me today.   Michael Hingson ** 09:44 Well, yeah, and you know, we're, we're constantly evolving. So you can, you can think about that, and you can think about what might have been, but at the same time, the the real issue is, what have you learned? And. How can you now take it forward? And I think, as I said, that's all about embracing the adventure,   Louise Baxter ** 10:04 absolutely, absolutely and so absolutely take that forward,   Michael Hingson ** 10:09 yeah, which is really what you have to do. So you went to college, I assume, yeah.   Louise Baxter ** 10:15 And I actually went part time at night, so I actually went straight into a work environment. And for an organization, and was in the marketing team, just doing basic clerical work, and then I studied part time at night, so did a bit differently.   Michael Hingson ** 10:33 Yeah, well, did you end up eventually getting a degree? No,   Louise Baxter ** 10:37 I have no degree. Which is, which is something that's not, is very unusual in the United States. I know, oh, I don't know   Michael Hingson ** 10:49 that it's that unusual. But the the other side of it is that what you learn and how you put it to use and how you evolve is pretty significant. And that's, of course, part of the issue. Not everyone has a college degree, and sometimes the people with college degrees aren't necessarily the the brightest spots in the constellation either. Absolutely, it's,   Louise Baxter ** 11:13 yeah, there's a lot through lived experience, but I have, yeah, I've studied at various times, and most recently, I was awarded a scholarship. And I've had the experience of doing two short courses at Stanford University in the States, and I'm now on the board of the Stanford Australia Foundation, and so that's been a wonderful experience as a mature age student.   Michael Hingson ** 11:42 That's fair. Yeah, I just recently was inducted into Phi Beta Kappa, which formed the chapter at my university the year I was leaving, so I was able to go to the organizing meeting, but that was it, because then I got my master's degree and left and through circumstances, it was learned that all that happened. So last year, I was called and asked if I wanted to become an alumni member. So I got to be so I finally got to be a member of fraternity. Well, there you go. Congratulations. Well, it's a lot of fun, yeah, and I, and I treasure it and honor it a great deal, and spent a day down at my old university. I haven't really spent a lot of time there since graduating, well, back in 1976 with my master's degree in some business courses. So it's been 48 years. So there you go. Time flies. Well, so what did you do? So you you were working in the marketing world, in a clerical sort of thing, and what did you do from there? I   Louise Baxter ** 12:55 then became an assistant brand manager, a brand manager or product manager, whatever you want to call it, and I worked at Reckitt and Coleman. I worked at Johnson and Johnson and at Arnot snack foods. And Arnot snack foods was interesting because it was a joint venture with Pepsi foods from the US, because they were interested in the biscuit technology from Arnott's, and Arnot was interest interested in their snack food technology. And so what we had was a situation where we were sharing our expertise, and as a result, I was on the team, and we launched Cheetos, Fritos, Doritos into Australia, so they didn't exist here prior to that. Obviously Johnson and Johnson also, you know, big multinational, as is reckoned and Coleman. And then, after a number of years working on client side, I decided I wanted to move to the agency world. And I moved to Leo Burnett advertising agency, where I stayed for a decade. I was on the board there. I managed accounts like the Proctor and Gamble and kill on businesses as well as local businesses like tourism businesses and and wine so hospitality businesses here in Australia, very big wine company and and also the United distillers business back then. So had a lot of experience from both the client and agency side of working on big brands and growing big brands, which I absolutely loved, and we had a lot of fun, you know, along the way, in those days at all of the organizations where I worked, I made a lot of friends, and it's always important to have great friends from those experiences. And then I considered I actually left after i. Left Leah Burnett, I started an agency with two other people that's called Brave New World, which still exists to this day. I haven't been part of that for a long time, and then I had this moment of considering that I could potentially do something more worthwhile with my skills than than selling the products I'd been selling for all those years, and that's when I first made the decision to move to the what I referred to as the profit for purpose sector, and moved to Starlight in a role, and at that time, that was just a six month maternity position role. And I did that because I had great experience of brands from the client and agency side and promotions, so above and below the line. Promotions. I had worked on promotion supporting charity so cause related marketing campaigns. And I felt that the one thing I was missing if I wanted to go back into a corporate, into a corporate social responsibility role. Was that experience of working in a charity, and so I thought at that stage that my, my of journey was going to be back to a corporate because at that time, if you think this is over 20 years ago, triple bottom line was, and the third sector was really becoming important to organizations and to corporates. And so I thought I'd take my skills and go back to a corporate what I did instead was I went to starlight, as I said. It was a six month contract, but after three months, then CEO came out and said, What would it take to keep you here? I loved what I was doing, and I stayed at Starlight. I did stay for six, seven years. I then left and went back to corporate world, and I came back to starlight. So I left at the end of, what am I of? I left at the end of 2007 I came back in 2009 so I had that experience of back in the corporate world, and I came back as a CEO. It's   Michael Hingson ** 17:20 interesting. You started out in, as you said, in clerical work, but you started out in marketing, which, which you liked, what, what caused you to do that? Why marketing? Why marketing and sales, if you will?   Louise Baxter ** 17:33 Well, I love, I love marketing. I love brands, and I love the fact that, you know, brand is a living and breathing thing, and you can grow and change a brand. And I love, I love all the learnings around consumer insights. That was my specialty within marketing. So actually understanding that consumer behavior, and what I say about marketing is it's, it's hardly rocket science, because if you look at a young child, they recognize that they speak differently and use different language and words, etc, when they're speaking to their friends, when they're speaking to their grandparents, when they're speaking to their teachers, when they're speaking to their siblings, and so already, the concept of I have a different consumer in front of me, and I need to change my language and what I'm saying and my communication skills. Need to tweak. A child understands that from a very early age. So when I think about marketing, that's what you're doing the whole time. You're changing what you're the what you're saying and the way you say it, so that you engage more strongly with your consumer, and that's what I love about it, because communication is just so powerful, and you can take people on a journey. I'm also you know you can change behavior before you change the attitude, but ultimately you can move people and kind of change their thinking and their their their habits.   Michael Hingson ** 19:11 What's a really good example that you participated in of that I love a marketing story, loving sales and marketing as I do, I'd love to hear a good marketing story. Um,   Louise Baxter ** 19:22 well, there's, there's, there's quite a few. And I'll, I'll give you one. There was, I used to work on all the roads and traffic authority business, and at that stage, we were responsible for handling all the campaigns, from speeding to seat belts to drink driving, etc. And what was really powerful about those was your results were that every day you came into work and the road toll was there, and the road toll was, you know, up or down. And to work on campaigns which, over years, reduced the road toll because of the messages that you would keep. Communicate to people about speeding, etc. So whether people believed that they should be going, if you know, 10 kilometers slower in that particular zone or not, the messages of you know of penalties being caught, whatever the messaging you used to slow them down in that moment worked, and that saved lives. So, you know, that's, that's an example. I also worked on brands such as Special K, you know, and and for me, seeing, we created a fantastic campaign here that ran for about 20 years, and it was based on the the traditional Special K ads where women would wear clothes that they had years ago. And this one was about a mini skirt, but it was done in such a way that the woman was Stuart was the strength in the TV commercial. She was the lead. And that grew the business, and grew Special K at that time, at like, three times the market average for any, you know, product growth. So to see those things, and what I love is the results. And you you get it very strongly in those moments and and it's exciting.   Michael Hingson ** 21:17 You mentioned having been involved with working with Fritos and so on, which strikes a nerve when I lived in New Jersey, somewhere along the way, ranch flavored Fritos came into existence, but they didn't last very long, and I miss ranch flavored Fritos   Louise Baxter ** 21:34 we used to do when I worked on those snack food brands. We did so much testing and to to create tastes that are suitable, because tastes do change significantly, you know, region to region, and so ensuring that we had exactly the right flavors that would resonate and and sell here was really important to us. But along the way, we had some shockers, and we did have a lot of the specialist from FRITO lay in the states out working with us to craft those flavors. So we eventually got ones that worked here and for this region.   Michael Hingson ** 22:13 Yeah, and I'm sure that that must be what what happened that ranch flavored Fritos just didn't sell enough. In   Louise Baxter ** 22:20 cell Michael, you didn't have enough friends,   Michael Hingson ** 22:23 I guess not. Well, we didn't know enough people in New Jersey. What can I say? But, but we contributed as much as we could. My wife and I both loved them, and we we bought ranch flavored Fritos every chance we got. But unfortunately, that really probably wasn't enough to keep it going. So we, we mourn the loss of ranch flavored Fritos. But you, you did that, and it's interesting, because if I were to bake this observation, in a sense, although part of your job has changed, part of your job hasn't changed, because it's still all about marketing and educating people. Of course, now you're on the not for profit side, but that's okay, but what you're doing is teaching and educating, and now you're doing it for more of a social cause than a profit cause.   Louise Baxter ** 23:21 You're exactly right what we're doing every day because is, we're marketing our organization, and it's all about communication, and that communication might be very different with, you know, high net donors to community groups who support us in terms of how they connect with us. The impact stories are the same, although you also learn that certain individuals might prefer programs that support children, or might support prefer programs supporting older people, older children, or might support programs that support our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children. And so you learn that through all your discussions. So it's all about hearing, because marketing is about really listening and and so I am still, you know, everything we do is about really listening and really hearing from the kids and the young people we support. You know, we need to listen to their situation and what, from our program's perspective, is working for them. So I feel it's very, very similar to what I did, because I was a product manager, so I was always listening to our customers to create more relevant products, and then communicating to people so that they we could sell those products. And the difference here is, back then they were the same people, so you would listen to your customers, then you'd be selling to them. And now what happens is our customers are the children and young people who are seriously ill and hospitalized, and our customers, the people where we're getting the funding from, are the donors who. Support those programs. So you break it into different groups, and we have far more stakeholder groups that you're managing in the profit for purpose sector than you do in the for profit sector. But that keeps it   Michael Hingson ** 25:14 interesting Well, so what is in in what you're doing today? And I'd be interested to to hear a contrast. But what does what does success mean to you today, and what did success mean to you when you were in the marketing world?   Louise Baxter ** 25:30 I think that that's always, you know, being the best you can be, and achieving the the metrics you need to achieve. So that's not changed, and always having really positive relationships with, you know, and partnerships. So for me, none of that's really changed. And I think that, you know, authenticity is very, very important. And so I constantly say, you know, with me, what you see, what you get, I'm the same person, no matter if you're a friend, a colleague at work, whatever, and I think that makes life much easier than if you were different people in different spaces. So I think there's a there's something that's very consistent about that. And I, I am that kind of person who doesn't take no for an answer. It's just okay. That's that's a bit trickier, but how can we get that done? So I'm always, always been solution focused, and I think that's been that's really important. And I think, you know, Obama has made comments about the type of people he wants to employ, people who get stuff done, and that's that's exactly me, and who I look to work with. So none of that has changed, but for me, it's now incredibly important. We're changing lives every day, and I think that what Starlight does in this country is we believe that that happiness in childhood matters, because happiness in your childhood is the strongest determinant of how you perform in your education, your employment, and with long term healthy life behaviors, children who are seriously ill have their ability to be happy significantly impacted. And so what we do is we sort support them with a whole range of programs. And I can talk about our theory of impact, but it builds their well being and resilience. And I know that that that you talk a lot about, you know about fear, and I think resilience is that thing that that gives you the strength to move through those things that may be frightening to you at some stage, and kids who are seriously ill are going through so much that is unfamiliar and frightening to them and painful. And so Starlight has been creating programs which are all about positive psychology and built on the tenants, if we can build, if we can distract a child by something that's positive help them to look forward to something positive. On the other side of treatment, it changes their engagement with their health care, and it changes their health outcomes for a positive and so that's incredibly important, and we were using this a decade before Martin Seligman even coined the phrase positive psychology and and now as as clinicians recognize, and they've recognized this for a long time, but are increasingly recognized the ways this this can be used to create improved health outcomes. And let's face it, you know, healthcare is one of the most innovative, fast moving sectors you can possibly work in, and clinicians have changed and improved health outcomes for every illness and disease you can possibly think of, and that's amazing. And so Starlight has been part of that improvement in healthcare, but the recognition that your mental health and well being is completely connected to your physical health and well being. And so while the doctors and nurses the clinicians look after the physical Starlight is engaging with the child within the illness and helping to lift their spirits, support their well being, resilience, giving back that joy of childhood. Because, you know, a clinician once said to me, Louise, in treating their illness, we steal their childhood. And so what we're about at Starlight is giving those kids back their chance to simply be a child and have that fun of childhood, which is where we started this conversation. You know, childhood should be about fun and having no inhibitions and not worrying, not a care in the world. And children who are seriously ill live in a very kind of adult world where they're dealing with concepts such as life and death. And that's not where any child should really be.   Michael Hingson ** 30:05 So when you're when you're dealing with a child, what, what? What do you do to bring the child back to the child, if you will, as opposed to all the the challenges that they're going through? Because certainly, when you're dealing with a disease like a cancer or whatever, it is, a very tough thing. So how do you bring that child back to being able to be a child at least for part of the time?   Louise Baxter ** 30:32 And that's, that's, you're absolutely right. It's about moments, because, and we talk about moments which matter. You can't do it for 100% of the time, but if you can lift that child and distract them and take them away from that, even if just for a moment, it changes everything. And I, I we have a whole range of programs that cater for this, in hospital and also in community. And last year, we created nearly 2 million so it was 1.9 million positive Starlight experiences for children. And that's the way we talk about it, because they're all so different. But we work in three general areas, and that is, we transform, we work in partnership with the clinicians to transform the healthcare experience, and we even build physical spaces in the hospitals, all the children's hospitals in Australia, which are manned by a character called Captain starlight. So we employ nearly 200 Captain starlights, who are all professional performers, and they work with the children, and they engage. They don't perform, but they use performance skills to engage with the child and the child's imagination, because a couple of things about children is that they are in they have incredible imaginations, and they are also easily distracted. And one of the things about most parents is they they try to work out how they keep their child focused? Well, we use the fact that children can be intensely distracted for good. So, you know, for example. So talking about that transforming the healthcare experience, some of our captain starlets will actually work in a treatment space with the clinicians, and they know how the treatment is going to unfold. Not so they could ever perform the treatment, but be so they know when to distract the child, when to keep the child very calm, etc, throughout that procedure. But let's say it's a burns dressing change that to a child. The pain of having a burns dressing change is like having your skin removed every time the dressing has changed, and what we do is we have our captain starlights there, and children don't have the psychology of pain in their mind. They will be intensely distracted, and their pain threshold then increases by up to 75% by simply distracting them, which means then they don't need to have an anesthetic for their treatment, which means that that child may not have to stay in hospital overnight because of that anesthetic and etc. So by using the power of a child's mind engaging with them, we can change that scenario. They won't feel the pain. Now, for an adult, that sounds weird, because if we were having that burn stressing changed on an arm, even if someone was distracting him, we'd be waiting for the pain, whereas a child just gets absorbed in the distraction and is not waiting for the pain. And so that's the difference. So we transform the healthcare experience, we provide opportunities for children to connect, because social isolation is one of the key issues associated with serious illness and treatment. They're pulled away immediately from their local friends and family, often into, you know, a hospital that's in the city, and that's the way our healthcare system works. The big children's hospitals are in the cities. The kids come out of regional areas and into that so they're away from everything, all their friends that their bedroom, everything that's familiar, and so that social connection is really important. That's part of what we do in our Starlight Express rooms, which are in every Children's Hospital. They also are TV stations within those hospitals and broadcast to the bedside of the child. So if the child's too sick to come into the Starlight Express room, they can be part of that and have that social connection from their bedside. So quizzes, for example, are really important for us, and we run a quiz every day, and sick children have lost that ability to compete in so many ways and have fun and have that little banter that you have with people when you are competing. Yet a quiz brings that all together. And we often have, we always have prizes, but it means a child in their bed who can't physically come into another space with another child for issues in terms of their illness and and. Um and infections and cross infections, etc, they can still be involved, and they can win the quiz, and, you know, be on television and chat with the other kids. So those things are very important. And we also promote entertainment, because entertainment is a great way of of distracting children. And so we talk about what we do. We transform the healthcare experience. We provide social connection that's so missing, and moments of entertainment. And our program sometimes deliver all three, but they're created for one specific reason, and so we're all about having fun. And for me, when I see a child come into a Starlight Express room, especially a child who's recently been diagnosed, you can see they're often in a wheelchair. They're holding an IV drip. They have their head down, their shoulders down, they have the weight of the world on their shoulders. They're looking like no child should ever look and you see this child come into our space and start to lift because a Starline Express room is a haven away from the clinical nature of the ward. They start to lift. They see the space. They see the captain starlights, and for me to observe that same child, 510, 15 minutes later, roaring with laughter, completely forgetting where they are and why. That's the power of starlight, and that's what we do through all our programs every day. And that moment lifts that child and gives them, builds their resilience and gives them the ability to go back into that next round of treatment, surgery, etc. So it is in that moment, and it changes everything.   Michael Hingson ** 36:40 How does the starlight experience differ in America and our healthcare model here as opposed to in Australia? Do you have any idea?   Louise Baxter ** 36:52 Yeah, well, we have, we man all of the spaces in our hospitals. So the hospital, when a new hospital is being built, they they they allocate a section that is the Starlight Express room space. We then build the Starlight Express room, and these are quite large spaces, and then we man it with our own paid team members and volunteers that would never happen in your healthcare system, just with legal issues and liability, etc, you'd never see that happening in in America. So that's, I think, the key, the key difference from things that we do in Australia, we also are a wish granting organization, and we are the largest wish branding organization in Australia, and we have programs called we have a program called Live Wire, which supports young people, so teenagers and up to the age of 20, and that is in hospital. So we then don't have Captain starlights. We have live wire facilitators, and then we have live wire online. We also have a virtual Star LED Express room, which we created and trial during COVID. Because obviously everything around the world and definitely in Australia, was in lockdown, and our programs were an essential service in the children's hospital, but we were restricted, and so we'd been toying with the concept of a virtual Starlight Express room for a long time, and so we used COVID as that opportunity to trial that, and we trialed it. It was very successful, and we're now rolling planet Starlight into every hospital across Australia. All people need there is a QR code. And so we put up beautiful posters, which are also games that kids can play that has a QR code, and they can go directly to Planet starlight. And planet Starlight is set up has live shows of Captain starlights during the day, but also games kids can play directions, how to do art. So if a child's seriously ill, but at home or in another hospital, they can do all of this stuff. And it's it's not that you need a full tank kit. We do it and understanding that children will be able to work with what they have that's near to them. We even have things like I spy for an emergency room space so that kids can stay distracted, no matter what part of a hospital they're in. We also now support families who are in at home palliative care, because 70% of children in this country who are in palliative care are at home. That's not necessarily end of life palliative care, but palliative care can go on for a number of years, and those families are incredibly alone and isolated, and so our Starlight moments program delivers things to uplift that family and have them know that someone's thinking of them during this time. And. Again, it is those moments which really, truly matter.   Michael Hingson ** 40:05 So, um, how did what? What do you know about how it works here, or what actually happens in America? Do you have any real notion about that? I mean, I understand all the legalities and all that, but how does it differ what? What do they do here to be able to foster that same kind of climate. Yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 40:22 they're still about happiness matters, right? Which is fantastic, and they do that with, I'm trying to think of the name now Fun, fun boxes that they have delivered into hospitals with toys, etc, for kids. In some hospitals, they are able to do a refresh of a playroom to make it a starlight space. But it's then not like ours are manned every day with team members. They have little carts that help kids transport round the hospital. So yeah. So they have a whole range of things that they can do within the limitations of the different health system. It   Michael Hingson ** 41:06 must be a real challenge to keep up the spirits of all the people who work for starlight. How do you keep a positive work environment and keep everyone moving forward and hopefully reasonably happy in what they're doing, because they they have to see a lot of challenges. Obviously, yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 41:26 we we're authentic with our commitment to positive psychology. And so getting close to 15 years ago, we started working with a group here in Australia called the positivity Institute, and we started training all of our team members. So every team member who joined Starline is trained in the tools of positive psychology, because you're absolutely right. And I use the airplane analogy, you know, if the plane's going down, you're always told that you put your you have to put your oxygen mask on yourself, because if you don't put it on yourself, you're of no use to anyone else, and POS, psychs like that, you have to care for yourself. And self care is so important, because if you are not caring for yourself, and if you are not topping topping up your own cup, then you're of no use to support and coach and help other people, and so we have positive psychology is the one authentic thing that, just you know, moves right through our organization. It's at the heart of everything we do for the children and young people. And importantly, every question we ask ourselves about every business decision is, will this improve the way we support the seriously ill children and young people, yes or no, and then what we do is we carry that through, because for us to be able to provide the support we do, and you're absolutely right, working often in very challenging situations, we need to know how we can look After ourselves. So POS site flows through the whole organization, and we are an organization that is a great place to work in Australia, there's actually, you know, a survey that's done annually, and corporates and other organizations are ranked, and we're always in the top group of performers there. So it's, it's also very critical to maintain a high performing team, because we need to be sure of able to have our team bring their best self to Starlight every day. And that's what post psych does for us. How does   Michael Hingson ** 43:37 that work? What? What do you do? I mean, you, you obviously have people who go into situations and they get hit with so many sad sorts of things, but obviously you're able to bring them out of that. How do you do that? Well,   Louise Baxter ** 43:52 as I said, Everybody's trained up front and recognizes the tools or has the toolkit for prossite, but we don't just leave it there. So the people who are working in hospitals have daily debriefs. They have a support crew from an employee assistance organizations who work with them. That's the same person who works with those teams. So they then have weekly debriefs, monthly, quarterly. So we're onto it. It's, it's, it's a, May, it's a, it's a, it's very strategic in the way we support them, and it's very considered. And so that support is there for people on a daily basis. So   Michael Hingson ** 44:35 you, you, I'm just thinking of a question I'm going to ask, you're doing a lot with children and all that, which I think is really great. Is there any chance that this kind of approach could also work for older people, adults and so on?   Louise Baxter ** 44:57 Absolutely, and it. It would also work. I mean, we're working with seriously ill, right, and hospitalized children, but it would also work with group, other groups of vulnerable children. So, you know, happiness and positive psychology is something that works for everyone, quite frankly. And so one of the things that's a side benefit of starlight being in a hospital is it lifts the morale of the whole hospital team. So the hospital, the hospital team, is happier. Because if you think of working in a children's hospital, if Starlight was not there, it can be a pretty dour place, and the challenges are every day, but with starlight, they're lifting the spirits, having fun, being silly. It changes everything for the clinicians I know, I've been at the door of a lift, an elevator, as you would say, and and before the lift, the doors open. A doctor who's been waiting there, notices that two captains walk up to hop in the elevator and and the doctor will say, I'm taking the stairs. I never know what those guys make me do between floors, but laughing. So you know, our captain starlights are about that fun. And the thing about Captain Starlight is they come from Planet starlight. So there's a mythology around them, and they fly to planet earth every day in an invisible rocket ship that lands on the roof of the Children's Hospital. And the great thing about this is that the children are then in the gun seat in because they understand everything about Planet Earth, and the captains don't. So the planet the captains will do silly things like pick up a pen and use it like a telephone and go, Hello, you know. And the children will go, No, not that. So it's that merge of slapstick and kind of vaudeville and the child engaging with the child. But they will, can they? Our captain? Starlets will do that silliness with doctors and nurses too, which is also hilarious. And that's the comment from the captain from the doctor. So Right? It keeps the morale of the entire hospital, because, you know, it changes from having children who are crying and distressed and frightened to children who are roaring with laughter, um, despite the fact that they're seriously ill, that's great.   Michael Hingson ** 47:25 How can we bring that to adult patients?   Louise Baxter ** 47:29 Well, do you know what I've been working or I've been walking with our captain starlights as they've had to move through an adult part. You know, some of our hospitals are adults and children's and then the youth are on the other side. As we've walked through, an elderly person stopped and said, Hey, captain, could you sing me a song? And so they had their ukulele there, and they launched into, you are my son. I think he might have requested, You are my sunshine. And you can see immediately the change in the person. So it, it is something that definitely works, but at the moment, we don't have the funding to meet all of the need that we have for children and young people. So while it's, you know, potentially a great concept, it's, it's not something that we can move into in the the immediate future. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 48:24 and you can only do what you can do, but it would certainly, it would seem to me be exciting if people would bring more of those programs to adults too, because adults could could use it. And I'm sure you know that I'm not saying anything magical at all, but I would think there are ways to bring a lot of this to adults that would help lift their spirits. I know when my wife was in the hospital, it was very boring for her. Now she was in a wheelchair, so she was in a chair her whole life. So she had other challenges being in the hospital when she needed to use a restroom or have help with a bedpan, sometimes it took a while and so on. So just a lot of things that could have been better for her, that I think would have made her experience better. And I realized that she was probably, in a sense, a harder case than some, but still, it would just be so nice if we could do more to help all of the different kinds of patients in hospitals and make it a better experience for them.   Louise Baxter ** 49:23 Yeah, that's that's what we're doing about, about changing that healthcare experience,   Michael Hingson ** 49:29 yeah. What about the whole concept of diversity, equity and inclusion and so on? How do you deal with a diverse population? So for example, in all the things that you're talking about, what if you discover that one of the children that you're dealing with is blind in the hospital? How do you adapt so that they get as included as other people in the things that you're doing? Yep,   Louise Baxter ** 49:53 we have. All of our team are trained in dealing with. Children who are blind, who are deaf. We actually recently had training, and we had our captain starlights. They were all blindfolded, and they were going through sensory experiments to teach them how they can better use sound and other things to work with children. So So our team is trained across all of those different areas, because you're right every day, we do deal with children who are deaf, who are blind, who are in wheelchairs, who are non verbal, who are on the autism spectrum, but all of those things. So we have to have teams trained. Our team is trained to understand how they can deliver an exceptional experience to those children, as well as children who don't have those differences. So   Michael Hingson ** 50:56 clearly you have a we got to get it done. Got a really positive attitude to get things done. Where did you learn that attitude? Because that's a very positive thing that I think more companies and more people in general ought to learn. The whole concept of, we're going to get it done no matter what it you know, I don't want to say no matter what it takes, but we're going to get it done, and we're very positive about that. Yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 51:25 I'm not sure that I learned it, but I think that there are people in life who you see that way. I always, I always jokingly call it waiters with their heads up, because, you know, you see when you're in a restaurant often, there's those people who walk past your table and don't pick up the dirty plates, who aren't looking for things to do. And then there are those other ones who you can see are going from table to table, doing stuff everywhere. And I always say they're the people I want to employ, the waiters with their heads up. So I think it's an attitude you have in life. And you can either kind of say, well, that's a challenge, and that's difficult, but how can I get that done? Or you can say, well, that's difficult. I just won't do that anymore. And and, you know, we need people who want to get stuff done and who always have a pot and having a positive attitude just makes you feel so much better than dwelling in the negative. And you know, I hate people who are always who those negative Nellies or nets or whoever they are, and they bring you down. So positivity is something that I think helps all of us every day. And why wouldn't you choose to be positive? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 52:37 and it is a choice. And the reality is that no matter what goes on, I think we can choose to be positive. One of the things that I've been saying for many years, that I learned because of the World Trade Center, basically, is don't worry about what you can control. Focus on what you can let the rest take care of itself. We're so worried about every little old thing in the world that we don't tend to be positive about anything, and that doesn't help any of us. No,   Louise Baxter ** 53:07 I think that being positive is so incredibly important. It makes you feel better and happier, makes everybody around you feel better and happier. So why wouldn't you do it? And I actually use this at Starlight too, because sometimes team members like you reach a point in your in your work life, and I did. I left Starlight because I needed a new challenge, and Starlight didn't have that challenge for me. So why hang around and become that disgruntled person in the corner who's just trying to pull everybody else into their negative little corner and finds fault with everything the organization does. Why would you stay? You know, and if you leave in that instance, you go to somewhere where you can contribute, and you feel great. You're doing a great job. The organization gets someone into your role who really wants to be there, and all that negativity stops. So in positive psychology, the end game is flourishing. And so I jokingly say at my team all the time, if you don't want to be here anymore, if you're not feeling challenged, please go flourish somewhere else. Don't stay here and become that negative person who tries to bring everyone into their negative corner. It's just not good for you or anybody else. So, yeah. So, so the Go flourish somewhere else is a bit of a joke that people say they're going to have printed on my coffee mug at some stage.   Michael Hingson ** 54:30 Well, you went away, but you also came back. That's   Louise Baxter ** 54:34 right, that's right. And so I went away because I needed a new challenge at that stage. And that challenge, potentially, was the CEO role that it wasn't available then. So I went and I did something else that I loved. And then, you know, the board came back to me some time later and said, Would you come back as CEO now? And I said, Yes. So there you go. And then I'd had a different experience, which actually helped. Me to be a better CEO. So as you say, if you're always moving forward, if you don't get hung up about things, and if you choose positivity, that really can set you up for a much better life. What   Michael Hingson ** 55:13 are some of the challenges that Starlight is facing in Australia today?   Louise Baxter ** 55:19 I think that for us it's a nice challenge, because as clinicians recognize the power of positive psychology and the power of the mind in improving health outcomes, they're very creative, and they're coming up with more and more ideas as to how star lack could be used, but we can only deliver if we increase our funding. And obviously, I think globally, communities are under pressure financially, and so those things kind of don't work together. And that's that's a challenge for us. I think we live in a world of increasing complexity and compliance and and we need to within that, ensure we meet the requirements and the criteria, but we do it in the simplest possible way, because simplicity is better for your mental health. It's more effective and efficient. And so sometimes within the the complexity of compliance, people are on making things even more bureaucratic than they need to. So really keeping things simple, I think, is is important against the backdrop of what's happening. And the exciting thing is we work in the sector of health care. And health care is always changing, always improving and and that's a great thing to be part of. What   Michael Hingson ** 56:48 do you think are well, what would you tell somebody from, let's say, one of your former jobs in marketing and so on, what kind of advice would you give them based on what you now know as being the CEO of starlight, for, my gosh, what? For 15 years, 14 almost? Well, 15 years, yes, almost 16 years. Yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 57:10 I think that. I think people have to be true to themselves. You know, you have to be authentic. Choose positivity is something that I would always give advice around, because, as you said, it is a choice, and I fail to understand why everyone, anyone would choose the negative, yeah, side of that equation and really focus on getting stuff done. So never sit back and be lazy. Always be working to be that, that person who thinks about themselves others and cares and gets it done,   Michael Hingson ** 57:55 yeah, we we spend way too much time, because I think we're taught so much to be negative when we don't get taught nearly as much about being as positive as we can be. I know that my parents were always encouraging to me and my brother. I'm not sure my brother always got it quite as much as I did in terms of understanding it, but we were, we were taught that positivity was a choice. We were taught that being innovative and moving forward was a choice. And we also were encouraged to make that the choice that we made too, which is part of the issue, yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 58:37 excellent. And the other thing is, I would say, Do not be a perfectionist. I'm an anti perfectionist. Yeah, I agree. It gets you nowhere. Doesn't exist. And you know, especially in this day, where we can move, and we're very agile, kind of, I say 70% out, because if you say 70% and out, it means people will probably go to 80 or 90% but those people who, if anyone in a in an interview, proudly tells me they're perfectionist, they're gone because all they do is drive themselves and everyone around them crazy. So I don't want to have them in the organization. It   Michael Hingson ** 59:17 seems to me that the thing to say is that I will always do the best that I can do, and I will always give at least 100%   Louise Baxter ** 59:25 Absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 59:28 Yeah, perfection is something I don't think most of us understand anyway, but if we give it our best, probably we'll achieve perfection, in a sense,   Louise Baxter ** 59:37 yeah, and get it done and get it out, get it happening, right? Because the thing is, if it's not, if it's, you know, if it's not, if it's not perfect, you get it out and you get to use it, and you learn so much more. So you got actually a better shot at getting it towards it. You can tweak it after,   Michael Hingson ** 59:55 yeah, well, well, market, well. And what you do. Do is you do the best that you can do, but you're if you're wise and good leaders. Know this. You also work with a team, and sometimes somebody else on the team can take the lead and enhance what you're doing, which is always a good thing.   Louise Baxter ** 1:00:15 Absolutely, you've got to have way smarter people all around you? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:22 I don't think there's anything wrong with having smarter people around you. Your your smarts is in bringing the team together.   Louise Baxter ** 1:00:29 Yes, that's right. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:33 what can you think other regions and countries learn from the challenges that you're facing?   Louise Baxter ** 1:00:40 I think we have, I think the world is so consistent in this day and age more than it's kind of ever been. You know, when you travel, you know, you seek out those places where we're different. Of course, we're different, but there's a lot more that's the same in this day and age than there ever has been and, and, you know, in some instances, I think that's quite sad, yeah, but there's much more consistency. So I think that there's, and there's always something that we can learn from each other, always. And that's what I look for. I'm excited by up learning things and you know, and and something that doesn't go according to plan is fabulous, because you learn so much more from that than something that just smoothly goes along and does everything you thought it would do.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:35 Nothing wrong with learning from things that don't go well. I don't like the term failure and even mistakes, I'm not a great fan of but I think that what happens is that things don't always go as we plan. And the real question is, what do we learn from it? Absolutely which is, which is so cool? Well, Louise, this has been absolutely fun to be able to spend all this time with you. Now it's 10 in the morning where you are, so we should let you go do other things and get something done today. But I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you who are listening for being a part of our podcast today. I'd love to hear your thoughts about what Louise had to say, and I hope that you will communicate with her. And that's a good point. Louise, how can people reach out to you if they'd like to talk with you and maybe learn more from you, and what you have to say, I'm   Louise Baxter ** 1:02:27 on LinkedIn. So if, if those listening are on LinkedIn, you can find me. Louise Baxter, Starlight, Children's Foundation, Australia and or you can go to starlight.org.au, we if you're looking for us, our website, and you'll find me through that as well. Cool.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:47 Well, I hope people will reach out. And if you'd like to reach out to me, and I hope you will, you may email me at Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, and you can also, of course, go to our podcast page, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, you can listen to all of our podcasts there. You can reach out to me. There lots of things you can do on the web. It's an amazing thing to be able to do things on the web. I also would really appreciate it if when you are thinking about us, if you'll give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to us or watching us, we really appreciate your ratings and your comments. So please do that. If you know of anyone who you think might be a good guest, and Louise, you as well. If you can think of anybody else who we ought to have on unstoppable mindset, would definitely appreciate you introducing us. We're always looking to have more people to come on and tell their stories and talk about what they do. That's the best way to learn, is learning by listening to other people and them telling their stories. So hopefully you'll all do that and again, Louise, I want to thank you for being here.

In this episode, I'm joined by romance author, Abby Millsaps, who is taking the why choose trope by storm with her series, The Boys of South Chapel, that is now complete with the release of So Right! We chat about this new release, the entire series, and:Why she loves writing why choose romance,Why the boys of South Chapel will become readers' next favorite book boyfriends,Why she thrives off of writing unapologetically angsty romance that causes emotional damage for her readers,The free book she's gifting members of the She Reads Romance Books Book Club, and more!When you join the She Reads Romance Books Book Club this March 2025, you will get a free copy of So Wrong by Abby Millsaps!!Plus, you will also gain access to the exclusive, extended video interview to hear even more from Abby such as her favorite romance books and authors, why she loves reading romance, and her favorite tropes! Join today so you don't miss this freebie.Check out the Boys of South Chapel: https://amzn.to/4hWKSPFJoin the She Reads Romance Books Book Club: https://www.shereadsromancebooks.com/bookclubFollow Abby:WebsiteInstagramTikTokSPONSORED BY: Angel by Tina WortmanIn a universe where treaties are crucial, Angel—a genetically engineered beacon of perfection—stands at the crossroads of love and duty. Bound by fate to three men to unite their planets. Hiding in plain sight on Earth, her world shatters when her childhood love, Mikey, abandons their preordained path, leaving her to question everything. As forbidden passion ignites with the dangerously alluring Greig, Angel finds herself caught in a high stakes battle between destiny and desire. Will she uphold the legacy crafted by the Alliance and King Bryon, or dare to redefine her own future and reshape entire galaxies?Discover a tale of love, sacrifice, and rebellion where one girl's choice could alter the fate of the universe. Get it now: https://www.tinawortman.com/FOLLOW ME! Join My Email List: https://www.shereadsromancebooks.com/joinFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/shereadsromancebooks Instagram https://www.instagram.com/shereadsromancebooksblog/LEAVE A REVIEW!If you liked this episode, please give a star rating and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. Thanks!This post may include affiliate links. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

***All of our episodes will contain spoilers & potential triggers... consider yourself warned***Hey sluts!! Enjoy this week's interview with the amazing Abby Millsaps. We didn't get a chance to talk about audio, but Books 1-3 in The Boys of South Chapel Series is currently available on audio.Get your copy of So Right by Abby Millsaps here: https://a.co/d/1bfqPOQListen now on your favorite platform!If you want more info on PMDD, check out this website, you are not alone: https://iapmd.org/about-pmdd ***Don't forget to rate/review us on your listening platform. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-wet-spot-pod/donations

In this profound episode, Mick Hunt engages with Brenda Russell to explore her journey as a musician and songwriter. Brenda discusses her creative process, the stories behind her most cherished songs, and her philosophy on music and life. This episode offers an in-depth look at the artistry that has made Brenda a beloved figure in the music industry.Brenda Russell's Background: Celebrated for her deep musical heritage and iconic songs that have resonated across generations.Defining Moments: Brenda shares her approach to songwriting, including the spontaneous creation of "So Good, So Right" and insights into maintaining creativity and authenticity in her work.Discussion Topics:The inspiration and emotional depth behind her hit song "If Only For One Night."Her songwriting process and how she captures complex emotions and stories in her music.Collaborations with legendary artists like Maurice White and experiences that shaped her music career.Key Quotes:"Many writers write about our heartbreaks, and those sometimes are the best songs.""Write from your heart for yourself because that's your highest point."Next Steps:Listen: Explore Brenda Russell's music to experience her powerful storytelling.Reflect: Consider how you can bring more authenticity and heart into your creative endeavors.Engage: Share your favorite Brenda Russell song and how it has impacted you using #MickUnplugged.

In this episode, Craig Dalton and Justin Bowes reflect on the lead-up to the Unbound Gravel 200 race, sharing insights into the unique training approach adopted to prepare for the challenging event. They discuss the strategic training block, the importance of quality over quantity, utilizing power meters for training effectiveness, and the significance of recovery in a compressed time frame. The conversation dives into the pivotal four-day mini camp, highlighting the benefits of stacking workload and the nuances of balancing intervals and endurance rides.  Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Key themes include strategically structuring training around time constraints, leveraging prior endurance experience, the impact of power meter training, optimizing recovery for peak performance, and the mental challenges faced leading up to a formidable gravel race like Unbound. Key Takeaways: Strategic training plans can be tailored effectively to accommodate time constraints and previous endurance experience. Balancing interval workouts with endurance rides is crucial for building strength and endurance for challenging events. Utilizing power meters can provide valuable insights into training progress and help optimize performance. Adequate recovery periods are essential for the body to absorb training load effectively, leading to improved performance. Mental preparation and breaking down the race into manageable segments can help athletes. Transcript: [00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Justin, welcome back to the show, [00:00:02] - (): Justin Bowes: Craig. Thank you for having me. It's good to see you again. [00:00:05] - (): Craig Dalton: Post Unbound. We did it. [00:00:07] - (): Justin Bowes: That's right. You did it. Yeah, you did it a big way. [00:00:12] - (): Craig Dalton: I appreciate you coming on board and being my muse to help me tell my story. I feel like you were an integral part of my life for a while this year. **** - (): In our last episode, we talked about kind of what the run up to my non cycling related vacation looked like. And maybe we pick up the story post that vacation. [00:00:33] - (): Justin Bowes: Sure. Yeah, it was, we discussed on the, on the first pod that, we, we were having a little bit uncharacteristic buildup, um, not only because you had some, prior work, obligations with, as far as travel, but we were starting quite late, um, as well. **** - (): So we had to, be a little creative in how we wanted to, to approach your training. So, right when you were, uh, leaving, we had really built up your training load, um, because obviously we knew that you were going to be leaving and you're gonna have time off the bike. You weren't gonna be. **** - (): Completely immobile. I mean, you were, we're going to be able to, do some running and walking and some lifting and, and, um, a few stationary bike sessions in there and things like that, but it's not the most ideal unbound training, especially when you're training for the 200 and. We're only a couple months into it or, a couple of months out from it, I should say. **** - (): And so, uh, the thought behind, how I wanted to structure your training was to take advantage of the, the, the amount of time that you did not have to train. And so where a traditional buildup would have multiple big ride days on the weekends, um, not only that, but then also, during the week, You would have your meat and potato interval session, but also bookend it with some big endurance rides on the front and the back end of it, but you just didn't have that available to you. **** - (): So, um, I needed to make sure that we were going to take advantage of not only the lack of time that you had available to you, but also you're, you're no stranger to endurance, um, athletics. So you had a background that I could work with. And that makes all the difference. If you were just coming to me off the street and say, Hey, can you get me ready? **** - (): And less than four months, for a 200 mile gravel race, the hardest 200 mile gravel race in the world. It would, that would be a different story, but thankfully you, you had some background in endurance, so it wasn't. A foreign concept to your body. [00:02:48] - (): Craig Dalton: It was interesting in my training block leading up to Cuba because we really didn't do a lot of meaningfully long rides, but I also understood like, I'd never really done meaningful intervals before. **** - (): And clearly like the workouts you were prescribing to me that were one hour in duration. Pretty tired afterwards. Like I felt like I really gassed myself because now that we're looking at a power meter and we're really saying it's not like perceived level of exertion. It's like, here's the exertion you need to achieve. **** - (): Um, and it was really, I mean, frankly, it was like, I was burying myself on a lot of those workouts, which was very different than anything I'd been done doing in the, the decade before, to be honest. [00:03:32] - (): Justin Bowes: Right. Right. And I mean, it's, it's the old adage, quality over quantity. And again, I, I keep coming back to, the time crunch. **** - (): I mean, that's what we were up against. And so I really wanted to make sure that, the lead up to your trip to Cuba, but then also once you get back, we added enough low to you. to your training so that, um, the break was needed. And so your body would be able to absorb all of that load while you're gone because, yes, you would still be active, but you weren't training. **** - (): And so it allowed your body to recover from all that. And by the way, Um, Craig did an amazing job, um, of hitting all of his workouts. Like, I want to say there's less than a handful that were just kind of like, didn't nail them perfectly, but it wasn't for the lack of trying by any means. Um, and so, um, with that, and you brought up the point too, it's just like, you've never trained with power before, and so there was just, that was just another element to the training that we had to kind Yeah. implement. It wasn't like, Oh yeah, I've been training for years with power. So I know what my zones are and why and all of that. So kind of helping coach you through, the use of the power meters and, and the importance of that. **** - (): I think it gave us a really good detailed picture of where the training was going and you could see. Yeah. and ultimately feel, yourself getting stronger, after each week, things just got better and better and better. So once you got back into the country, then it was time to start, we'll continue on the interval workouts, but we're going to start introducing, the longer sessions as well. [00:05:21] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, yeah. And I remember like I definitely felt tired when I left for that week off, um, and unfortunately not incredibly refreshed after my quote unquote vacation, because there's a lot of running around with the family, but coming back and looking at the training calendar, we had a couple of things up in the air, but we knew like that next six weeks was going to be a big build of long rides, endurance rides, and continuing on some of the interval work. [00:05:47] - (): Justin Bowes: Right, right. And so, had, had things been different as far as scheduling of the trip and things like that, we may have flipped the script a little bit and did all of your big rides be, on the front end, and then do all the more structured training, the higher, shorter, sharper stuff on the back end. **** - (): But I just felt like with your background and what we wanted to accomplish with Unbound, um, it was better for us to, to stack those. shorter, sharper workouts on the front end and then give yourself time to relax or, absorb. And then once you came back and we figured out, some pieces as far as like, Hey, when can we get out and do back to back big rides? **** - (): And I want to talk about that too, because I think it was really important, um, in the buildup, um, for the race, um, those, those four days of just, some really good rides, but it, it, it, It was working and from my standpoint, I could see, the fatigue building, but your recovery was also taking, it was, it was working as well, and so it was like, we'd stack the work on you. **** - (): But then the recovery days were structured so that, those. again, your body absorbs that work. And the cool thing with watching you is he can, you, Craig, he can handle a lot of work, so I'd be looking at your workouts, every day. And I'm like, he's, he's doing this, like he's actually absorbing all this workload. **** - (): And that's where it was really starting to fuel my confidence. And what you were going to be able to, um, accomplish at Unbound was, not only is he nailing all these workouts, but he's also recovering on the backside of it too. And that was just, again, it was fueling my confidence for you to egg you on to say, Craig, you can do this. **** - (): Like we're in a really good position. And I didn't want to get down into all the weeds with you as far as like what I was seeing, right? Right. Because ultimately it's just like, I just want Craig, you to understand you can do this. So it was really cool from my standpoint to see. [00:08:03] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's interesting. As you talk about, like, if, if we had given more time that you might've done the longer rides earlier and then that kind of high performance stuff later, right. **** - (): I kind of feel like I might've struggled with confidence With that approach, even though like, obviously I would've had massive workouts six weeks back. [00:08:24] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, yeah. . But I [00:08:25] - (): Craig Dalton: kind of, I kind of like the, the idea that we were progressively testing me Yes. On these harder and harder weekends towards the end. **** - (): Right? [00:08:34] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. And I, and definitely by design , but at the same time it, it, it worked out, I think, better than I even. had hoped for because, again, in theory and on paper, I'm looking at what I want you to do, but ultimately it's what can your body and, now that we're getting deeper into it, what can your mind and your body do? **** - (): Handle. And so that's where, that's where, the coaching science and the coaching art kind of, blur the lines together of like, okay, this is what I expect him to be able to do, but this is what I'm seeing him, doing. And it's just, it's a really cool kind of blend of, the science and the art coming together. **** - (): And again, it just stokes my confidence. And hopefully that comes across in my communication with you is like, I'm really excited. I can see this happening. And this is why I believe that you're going to be able to, perform this, um, crazy, crazy event. So [00:09:39] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, I think what was good for both of us was knowing that, and I'd said to you early on, knowing that I kind of put myself and you behind the eight ball starting late. **** - (): Yes. But that, I had this, I could make a four day. Kind of mini camp whenever we needed it in May as like this option to really kind of do some big volume. [00:10:01] - (): Justin Bowes: Right, right. And that was, that kind of gave me, that was kind of one of those moments of like, okay, good, at least. We, we, we've got it to where, it's in our back pocket. **** - (): I've got that card to play. Um, it's going to lend itself really well. And, fortunately it was, you were really flexible on, when that could actually happen. And that, that definitely makes a, a big impact because, within the month of an event like, the 200. **** - (): Like, we can't miss days. We can't, there's like no makeup days or anything. And each day is just that much more important for the next and the next and the next, and. Um, yeah, having you be able to go out and just knock out these four days of, big rides and, when we were talking about how we were going to do that, when a lot of, I don't want to say a lot, when, when most people have that kind of that opening of like, Hey, I'm going to do a, a mini camp, whether it's a long, four day weekend or in the middle of the week, however it works out, they're so excited to go and put in the big miles, they're, they've got free time. **** - (): They've got the, the hall pass to go and just train. That's awesome. That's great. But the biggest mistake made by most people that do that is. They go out and do a seven or eight hour ride, on day one, and they're not used to that. And on day two, day three, they're just like, yeah, two hours here, three hours there, whatever. **** - (): And if that, because they just completely blew themselves to the moon on day one and weren't ready for that. And so, so I prescribed to you that we'll just stair step ourself into the, into that block so that. We get the most bang for our buck out of that, that mini block of training. And. It worked. **** - (): It worked well. [00:12:03] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think that was definitely a critical weekend for me. I think I rode four hours kind of mixed terrain with a buddy of mine on Thursday, four, maybe five hours on Friday and then eight and a half or nine on Saturday and followed up by two or three on Sunday. [00:12:21] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, that was, again, it was, it was a big, um, big chunk of time in the saddle. **** - (): Um, and it was a big, um, bite on your end. I mean, to take, to, to put in that much time, but again, it just, it, it just speaks to the training that we did leading into it helped. your body absorb those big days. And once you, once you came out of that, to me, like I didn't want to, I didn't want to like pile on just like the raw, raw cheerleader, like, Oh my God, he's going to do this sort of thing. **** - (): I, I was, I was, I internally, like on this side of the screen, I was like, hell yeah. Like this is, this is going to work. Like he, he's going to He's going to do okay at this. [00:13:12] - (): Craig Dalton: I think I got a hell yeah. In the comments and training peaks, [00:13:15] - (): Justin Bowes: you probably did. Yeah, [00:13:17] - (): Craig Dalton: that's sad. I think that for me, that Saturday ride was the one that I reflected on, on game day, because it was 10, 000 feet plus of climbing in. **** - (): Very, very challenging terrain. Like in fact, like I forgot, cause I don't go so far north as much like coming across pine mountain and up San Geronimo Ridge, things that the locals around here might understand, like it was just super rocky and this was like six, seven hours into the day that I hit just these trails that I just forgot how steep they are and how rocky they are. **** - (): So when I came home from that. And was able to get on the bike the next day. I was like, okay, like it was only 77 miles and I'm doing a 200 mile race, but I did the elevation and I can guarantee some of those miles were a lot harder to come by than what I'd experienced in Kansas. [00:14:13] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Um, I mean, just quickly for the listeners, just kind of given, give them some numbers behind the, uh, that particular ride. **** - (): I'll, I'll preface this by saying, even the professionals in the 200, they're not going to be able to go out and mimic. an exact 200 mile, day. And so it's just, it's just, that's a big day for anybody. And so if you can get in, for you, we're, we're targeting, like, we had the kind of the, um, beat the sun, uh, goal. **** - (): Hey, I'd like to get in, under 15 hours, just a couple, just high level. This is kind of what I want to do. So when you were able to clock in at over eight and a half hours in the saddle with, over 10, 000 feet of climbing. And coming in with a TSS of over 400 in under 80 miles, that's a big day. **** - (): And you're right. It's it's it, of course it's not, a hundred miles or even 125 miles or anything like that. Like, most people will, who do the 200 who have serious training behind them. They're going to be pushing that 150 mile, training day on one of, on their last big. **** - (): Uh, training block, but you being able to get out there and produce the power that you did, the load that you were able to accumulate and the efficiency. I should note, the efficiency factor that you were able to, um, uh, complete this ride in again, it was just like, it's just pure gold in the bank, like, not even cash, like gold, like, it's solid, it's, it's, it's tangible, like, he's going to be able to reflect on this ride when things maybe get a little dark in Kansas and be able to say, I, Look what I did. **** - (): Like, I can do that. And so when you have a ride like that, Craig, it's, it's, it's really good. Um, and it's, it's hard to quantify from a coaching perspective to an athlete until they actually do it of like what that truly means, um, to the end goal. **** - (): Yeah, yeah, I think it's so important [00:16:24] - (): Craig Dalton: to have those just tough tough days to reflect back on and put in the bank and I feel like when I, when I got to Kansas, I had sort of maybe a 90 percent confidence interval on my ability to complete the event. I knew, as you said before, I knew that I had Done everything that was asked of me pretty put a pretty solid effort in, but there was always that little bit in my mind saying, like, I've never ridden in Kansas. **** - (): I don't know what the terrain's like, and I've certainly never ridden more than 130 miles. Right? [00:17:00] - (): Justin Bowes: Right. And that brings up an interesting, question that I don't know. I've, I don't think I've posed to you since to to unbound, but like, mentally. That week leading into it, where was your head at? Like you, you've touched on like, Hey, I've never ridden in Kansas. **** - (): I've never ridden the 200 miles, kind of speak to, mentally where, where you were at leading into the race that like that week of. [00:17:27] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. I think it was a little bit all over the place. Like I started seeing footage of the actual terrain and I started actually, let me step back for a second. **** - (): They talked about the North course being chunky. And when I think about chunky, I think about where I ride at home, but I realized in retrospect, it's chunky at home, but 15 percent grades [00:17:50] - (): Justin Bowes: and [00:17:50] - (): Craig Dalton: Kansas chunky is chunky, but 6 percent grade, so it felt a lot different. Um, so that's a point on the chunkiness. **** - (): And then second, I started to see some of the more, um, minimum a maintenance roads and they had these great dual tracks that. We're pretty hard pack. Yeah. And I was, I was definitely conscious that conditions could change and good God, if you were in the Facebook group, the, the amount of meteorologists that came out of the woodwork was pretty insane that week leading in, but there's definitely some rain on the calendar. **** - (): Right. Yeah. [00:18:23] - (): Justin Bowes: No, I just felt like I may have oversold, um, the northbound course as being as chunky and technical, um, but I think, I'd rather you go in. With a higher level of like, Oh, okay. **** - (): This could be pretty rough. Um, as opposed to, Oh yeah, the North course is fine. Yeah, it gets chunky in sections, overall it's fine. But then you get there and you're like, Whoa, I was, you did not warn me about this. You did not, my expectation was down here. And now it's like, what is happening? **** - (): I [00:18:55] - (): Craig Dalton: think what it left you with, Justin was just an awareness of. This could go wrong for my equipment if I'm not careful. And I'll get into a little bit once we start talking about the ride itself, like how I rode the race. [00:19:10] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Um, [00:19:11] - (): Craig Dalton: but once I got to, I, I got out to Kansas on Wednesday night, got to Emporia on Thursday, did my first group shakeout ride for 15 miles on Thursday, actually in the rain. **** - (): Um, Start, it was nice to just get the bike on the dirt out there and start to get a sense for it. You start to understand, in any grid shaped race or race course, the 90 degree corners are what you have to be aware of because Right, while you may have good dual tracks when you're coming around a corner, it, it can be very much marbley, kind of gravel in the middle. **** - (): So it was good to sort of just. Test the cornering a little bit, so to speak. [00:19:53] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, it's, yeah, a lot of gravel races. You just have that natural, flow of the course and, and everything, but yeah, out in Emporia, it truly is. a hard right, a hard left, and, and, if you get out of that line, um, or, you, you find yourself, drifting out of that corner or out of the race line and into the, the, the sides of the course. **** - (): Yeah. It can get, it can get pretty chunky and it's, and not only that or loose too, but not only that is just the amount of. Shrapnel being thrown up at you, with that, that many cyclists, on a course, um, yeah, it's, it's tough. [00:20:40] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, exactly. So then Friday I hooked up with the, my, my crew in the house. **** - (): I was staying with shout out to Doug Bucko and Phil. Uh, we did a little ride in the town we were staying in and then I went into the, um, the meat, mandatory media event. Yeah. That lifetime was holding, and it was interesting because I did glean some perspective there as well, because they talked about how they felt like the first 28 miles of this race was going to be incredibly fast and actually that turned out to be a useful tidbit. **** - (): Um, After the race started, so we can talk about that in a little bit, but I sort of, I did a little ride on Friday, felt good. The equipment felt dialed in retrospect. I sort of had tire size envy a little bit because it was weird because I normally ride like a 47 at home. And, um, we talked about this early on. **** - (): You're a big fan of the IRC Boken and the biggest they come in is a 42. And I was like, well, I'm riding my titanium unicorn. I've got a front suspension fork. Like I don't need all that volume. And it, it seemed interesting to me to kind of go to something a little bit faster rolling potentially. But the big tire guy in me, when all the pros were talking about running 50 started to get a little bit jealous. [00:21:55] - (): Justin Bowes: Right. Yeah, it's, it's, it's so personal. Like, um, yeah, I can give you my recommendations and, what I've seen work, for myself and other athletes and competitors and things like that, but it's, it's, yeah, it really comes down to your comfort level of, You know what you, what you, what you can ride and what feels good underneath you and, and things like that. **** - (): And I, yeah, I'm, I'm all about my IRC tires, but at the same time, yeah, I couldn't help but be a little like, [00:22:28] - (): Craig Dalton: Hmm, [00:22:28] - (): Justin Bowes: 50 would be pretty nice, and I did [00:22:30] - (): Craig Dalton: talk to the IRC guys and they said, Hey, the guys are from Japan are here. Yeah. And I'm making them listen to all these pros who are talking about fifties. [00:22:39] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. [00:22:42] - (): Craig Dalton: So I feel like, like Thursday, Friday was all going swimmingly. And then through like being part of a larger group, my dinner on Friday night, we didn't end up sitting down to like maybe seven 30 or eight. Yeah, which is later than we had all intended by a few hours, right? I had been drinking a bunch of electrolyte stuff that I had picked up in the the expo area and For whatever reason and I don't really think I wasn't really in my head about the race because I was very kind of just at peace with Where I was at and what was going to unfold was going to unfold Friday night. **** - (): I had a horrible night's sleep. I had a headache. I just kind of couldn't go down, which definitely rattled me, getting up at 4 30 AM to start eating on Saturday morning. [00:23:30] - (): Justin Bowes: Right, right. Yeah. It's, it's tough. Um, yeah, it's, especially when you're with a group of people at a big race like that and, Emporia, I mean, they do an amazing job trying to absorb. **** - (): Influx of what, uh, 12, 000 plus people with support staff and racers. And, but yeah, with dining options being as limited as they are, um, and then trying to, get a group to dinner or prepare dinner, whatever that case may be. Yeah. It's, it's, it's tough. And. I'm, I'm of the belief, I've always had this, in the school of thought of, it's not the night before, it's two nights before, um, as far as like your most important rest, um, and, recovery time and things like that, because even if, Craig, even if everything went perfect on Friday night, The enormity of what you're about to do on Saturday morning will keep you from having a restful night's sleep, it's just, yeah, maybe, maybe you fell asleep a little bit quicker, but, just knowing that, oh, my gosh, I got to get up at 430. **** - (): I've got to have, double check this triple check that. I've got to start eating like immediately. I got to, make sure, everything's functioning. And so it's even with the best laid plans, it's always going to be, um, um, a rough night. So, but, again, objectively looking at it. **** - (): And I think I shared with you on our call the other day was, if somebody just tossed this file in front of me. Um, and just said, Hey, tell me what you think, without any context or knowing who it was or anything like that. It's like, this guy had a great race and it was indicative of, um, again, I think just your confidence of, being prepared and knowing it is what it is at this point and yeah, you, strapped in and got to work. **** - (): So. [00:25:31] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean, I felt great about my equipment going in. I spent way more time thinking about hydration and nutrition than I ever had before, and I was, I was really jazzed with the way the First Endurance EPO Pro High Carb Drink worked for me. So to give some perspective, I used two 12 ounce bottles of the high carb drink, and then I had a use way backpack with water in it. **** - (): And my plan was at every opportunity to refill those bottles. I would refill with the. The first endurance high carb mix that kind of annoyed maybe my, my compatriots a little bit. Cause I was like, Oh, I got to dump this powder in. And by the way, for any product designers out there, I need a product that will encapsulate a serving of first endurance. **** - (): That's better than a plastic bag and faster to pour into [00:26:24] - (): Justin Bowes: a bottle. **** - (): So you felt like **** - (): the, **** - (): the first endurance high carb. That was. That was good for you. [00:26:31] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. So I was using that, uh, trying to goal was to drink a bottle an hour and do Right. A goo or something in addition to it. So Right. Aiming around, I think 85 to 90 carbs an hour. Mm-Hmm. . And I had, I had trained on that on every one of my long rides. **** - (): Exactly. [00:26:48] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. And some people will say, well that's on the low side now, but, um, and, and it. It is, but at the same time, if that's what you're training with and that's what your body's used to, and again, being able to get through all the training sessions the way you did, why, why change that, and, and try to like go all pro and be like, I'm getting 120, 130 grams, of carbs per hour. **** - (): And then all of a sudden, you're two hours in and your body's like, I. Don't know what this means, and just let's just shut down on you. Um, you were, you were talking about, um, you touched on it really quick on, um, your bike and everything. Talk a little bit more about like the equipment that you did, end up using, for the race. [00:27:33] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. So I was using, it's basically my standard setup at home with the exception of, I was running 700 by 42 tires as IRC Bokens. Uh, as we mentioned before, I did have the RockShox suspension fork on there as well as a dropper post. I considered taking the dropper post off, um, because I didn't think it was going to be warranted, but I'm glad I did not. **** - (): I'm glad I left it on. [00:27:58] - (): Justin Bowes: Interesting. [00:27:58] - (): Craig Dalton: Okay. Part of that rationale was nothing new on game day philosophy. Um, but I, I can go on and on and on about dropper posts and in the context of unbound. It certainly enabled a heightened level of comfort during any of the technical sections. So little Egypt and right. **** - (): Call reservation. And then oddly, like on the more, on the longer kind of just gentler downhills, it just allowed me to really get in sort of a chilled out yet arrow position. [00:28:33] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay. [00:28:34] - (): Craig Dalton: So it, it, it turned out really well. And. Obviously there's like a slight weight penalty, uh, with it, but it just provides me so much comfort when I go downhill and so much confidence that, I was like, I'm just going to leave it on. **** - (): And I'm totally glad I did. [00:28:51] - (): Justin Bowes: Nice. No, I, I don't think we talk much about droppers when it comes to, to unbound. I don't think that's like any, in any of the, like the hot topics it's, it's, it's all tires and and now that they've banned, arrow bars, from the pros and stuff. I mean, it's just like all the focuses, your, your number. **** - (): Uh, holder now, so you can keep it flat and arrow and all of that. Um, and then your tires and, and wheel choice. Um, but yeah, dropper, like I think it makes a lot of sense, especially, just from a positioning standpoint. of just giving you your body a different position for that long of a period, because if you think about how being in a static cycling position for, 13, 14, 15 hours, being able to mix it up and know that you can, like you said, just have a little confidence boost and just like a different position for those descents. **** - (): Taking some pressure off your lower back, off your hamstrings, the glutes, all of that. I mean, the little things like that really do add up, especially over that course of, that type of distance. [00:30:01] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I do feel like at this moment I should, I should make one admission to my, my training progress. **** - (): I will say like the one area, Justin, where I felt like I failed down and fell down when fortunately it didn't bite me in the ass is while I did do a ton of foam rolling, I wasn't as committed as I should have been to my foundation back exercises. Truth comes [00:30:27] - (): Justin Bowes: out. Um, it's funny because I, like I doubled down on my foundation, uh, back exercises, the, the month leading into unbound, um, I've, I've always had a really strong back, um, partly from, swim background and everything. **** - (): But, um, as we've gotten older, um, things are just a little bit, they make themselves a little bit more aware and a day like, unbound granted, I did the hundred, not the 200. Um, it's still, It adds up. And so I was just like, I'm doubling down on my, my foundation work. So instead of, a minimum of twice a week, I was doing it four plus times a week. **** - (): And, um, I, I, I definitely felt a difference. Um, Just finishing and standing in the finish corral with everybody. And it was like, wow, I can actually like stand straight up, normally, normally you have that pre or post race kind of like slouch and slump and you're like, and have to like come back up to, um, vertical, uh, slowly. **** - (): Um, but yeah, big time. So interesting that you mentioned that. Um, [00:31:42] - (): Craig Dalton: So yeah, a hundred percent. It was not a recommendation to not do those things to anybody listening to what [00:31:46] - (): Justin Bowes: Craig did on. [00:31:47] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, exactly. So talking about race day, I mean, so, we got, it was surprised, like it was very hassle free to kind of get to the start line. **** - (): Yeah. Probably got there maybe a few minutes later than probably could have gotten further up in the Peloton if you, if you will. [00:32:03] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay. [00:32:04] - (): Craig Dalton: If I got there a few minutes early, but we were there maybe 20 minutes early and we got right to the basically to the 14 hour flag, which is where we decided we were going to start. **** - (): Cause it was important to me. I know from, from past experience, it's important for me to kind of get swept up and make miles when miles are easy. And so I was pretty adamant with the career that I was with that, like, for me, this was like an imperative. Like I, I definitely wanted to start there and ride in a big pack for a while. [00:32:35] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. And, we, we, we did touch on this, um, a little bit that, while you, you definitely need to be with your people, and be with those people that are going to, you. get you through those first, couple hours. Um, but be cautious of not getting swept up in the moment, of, of what Unbound is. **** - (): And for, for anybody who's never been to Emporia on race day, um, I mean, it's a, it's a big deal and you, it's very easy to get caught up, even the days leading into the race of, Oh, we can go do another shakeout, right. Or let's spend five hours at the expo on our feet, because we're having so much fun and we're talking with everybody and things like that with, without much thought of like, Oh, by the way, the biggest race of your life is, two days away and you need to like, Chill and relax, but, um, I, I totally agree. **** - (): Like, you, when. You have to take advantage of those easy miles. Um, with, with, with the caveat that, Hey, I don't want to get swept up and do too much too soon. But I also want to, as you say, make, make hay while the sun is shining. Right. Um, and, and put it away. So when things start to turn south a little bit, no pun intended, um, it's. **** - (): It's you're further up and you're further along and you're feeling better than, had you been too conservative and held back. [00:34:07] - (): Craig Dalton: And maybe, I mean, maybe because we couldn't get farther up, it was actually kind of a, the pace felt very pedestrian. The first 28 miles to me, like, I never, I never had to really, put in any meaningful effort to cruise. **** - (): And I, I was watching some videos this last weekend about it. And a guy who had done it in 12 hours. And I saw the difference of what the 12 hour pace looked like in the 14 hour. And I was like, maybe if I'm like totally nitpicking my day out there, maybe I should have been up a little bit further, but there's something to be said for like, I definitely had a chill first 28 miles. **** - (): And then. We hit, we hit the first technical section and it was interesting. I was definitely conscious of my equipment because I had weirdly, like I'd seen flats like barely out of town. [00:34:59] - (): Justin Bowes: I was like, [00:35:00] - (): Craig Dalton: God, I don't, I don't want to have a flat, there, people are flatting all over the place. **** - (): We would hit these, the, uh, the technical descents and you'd sort of, You have to ride in one of the dual tracks. We're kind of the safest way there. And there was a little rocky kind of drop offs. Nothing too technical if you had a clean look at it, but as you were riding in a group, sometimes you're inevitably forced into a line that you wouldn't have opted into. **** - (): I think that's where you risk, flatting or crashing. [00:35:28] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. And I think that's where most people get in to the big trouble is, they try to, they try to switch those lanes. When they really shouldn't. Um, and that's, a couple of things, a lot of those dual track MMRs, we'll have like a, a big grass section down the center of it. **** - (): Yeah. And the grass looks inviting, but it hides a lot of stuff in there, whether it's, a rut or a. Bigger, nastier rock that's been kicked out of the track into, it's just laying there. And so that's where I think people really make the mistake of like, Oh, this line's going faster on the left. **** - (): So I'm going to hop from the right side to the left side or vice versa. And that's where the cuts happen. And the, even crashes just because they hit something that they weren't expecting and things like that. [00:36:18] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, that 100 percent started to be a necessity to do those cross lane jumps for me. **** - (): Like, as we came out of the other side of the, the first technical section, like, you would just see one group moving up and another. Kind of fading back on a climb. And I was definitely conscious of that middle section. Like this is when it could go all wrong, you feel the need to kind of keep joining groups with forward momentum. **** - (): And yes, I was very pleased that, um, my, my buddy Doug, Was right there with me. I had kind of no sense because I was just sort of focused on saying, with that group in the first 28 miles. And when we came through the technical section, it was great to see his enthusiastic face pull through. And I was like, this is awesome. **** - (): Like, cause I, we hadn't written together, but once or twice. So it was great to see that. We could potentially spend a bunch of time together. So from mile 30 to mile a hundred, we were riding together and riding with groups. Um, it's interesting and unbound cause the amateurs can use arrow bars. **** - (): So you would see these guys and girls who would kind of maybe go slower on the hills, but once you got on the downhill or a flat, they were happy to have a train of people behind them. And I was, I'm not ashamed to say I was taking advantage of that as much as possible. [00:37:35] - (): Justin Bowes: Heck yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Real quick, before I forget, um, I think on the first pod that we did, um, you were asking me about the climbs. **** - (): Um, and, cause I had given you some description of like, punchy, um, death by a thousand cut because of just the, how many there were, succession and things like that now that you've done it, like what, what was your overall, um, Observation as far as like the climbing was concerned. [00:38:07] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. I mean, everything's so short relative to what I'm used to. And I knew that was going to be the case going in, but on the plus side, you can always, you can generally always see the top of them. So you kind of knew, and you could measure your, you could gauge your efforts. When I, I think about sort of towards mile a hundred, it started, we started to get to some that required a little bit more effort. **** - (): And actually this was, One of the, probably the darkest mental moment I had was I kind of, I lost Doug's wheel. He caught some good wheels. I was behind someone, uh, who was not moving as efficiently and we kind of separated. And I, I thought to myself, I don't feel like I want to make this effort over the top of the hill to bridge this gap. **** - (): But I was also staring down the barrel of like the one guy I know in this race is now riding away from me. Right. Um, there's a little bit of a dark moment there, but to your question about the hills, like, I was comforted that I could always see the top. I knew they were quite short relative to what I'm used to riding, and it was really a matter of, for me, there was maybe, I think, three times. **** - (): I ended up getting off on the last 25 percent of a climb or last 15%. Okay. Because I gauged that I could do it, but I felt like I was going to go into the red too much. And it felt prudent to just hop off real quick and walk. [00:39:32] - (): Justin Bowes: And that was, that was pretty late on though, right? [00:39:35] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. [00:39:36] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. It wasn't like mile 30 and you're like, okay, I'm going to start saving. **** - (): Yeah. [00:39:41] - (): Craig Dalton: Not at [00:39:41] - (): Justin Bowes: all. Not [00:39:42] - (): Craig Dalton: at [00:39:42] - (): Justin Bowes: all. Yeah. [00:39:43] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. So it was interesting. I was, I, there was a lot of mental gymnastics between mile 100 and one 48, which was the, the second checkpoint for us. Cause I had lost Doug. Um, it was starting to get hot. It was just. I talked to a few people and you probably mentioned the same thing to me. **** - (): Like you can't think of the totality of the 200 miles you have to do. You really just need to break it down into chunks. Yep. Right. So I started really thinking about, um, our crew chief, Phil, who was a godsend out there. He had such great. Support for us at the aid station. We had an easy up. He had everything imaginable. **** - (): I knew he had bottles on ice for me. So I jokingly referred to miles 100 to 1 48 as project Phil. [00:40:30] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay. [00:40:31] - (): Craig Dalton: And. Everything I did either was a positive effect towards Project Phil or a negative effect. So if I was, if I found a good wheel or I was riding well, I was like, okay, we're making progress, we're going to get to Phil. **** - (): And if I, fell off the pace or something, I was like, this is a serious blow to Project Phil. And I, it's funny. I started sort of naming a few of the characters that I would ride behind and, There is a guy, a guy I was calling the orange crush because he had an orange jersey. [00:40:59] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay. [00:41:00] - (): Craig Dalton: And every, he was like one of those arrow bar guys. **** - (): Right, right. Which was quite helpful. And then, at one point, um, at one point I got a really nice, um, Uh, I've started following a guy with a, with a beat the sun patch on his hip pack. [00:41:16] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay. [00:41:17] - (): Craig Dalton: And I was like, that's a good sign, actually. Like if this guy is, has clearly beat the sun in the past, this is probably a good sign. **** - (): So, got into a rhythm that mile 110. Or 112 water stop I'd forgotten about. And that was absolutely a godsend because, um, I need it. I just needed some relief and the volunteers there and everywhere were just phenomenal. So they poured a bunch of water over my head and just kind of cooled me down and filled me up and set me on my way. **** - (): And so I got to mile one 48 and my buddy Doug was sitting in the chair. With Phil and I was like, this is great. Like, I wasn't expecting to catch Doug again. Right. So it was, that was a nice sort of mental jump. And, he, he had run outta water, so he wasn't feeling that great, but he's like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna head, he'd been there a little bit, I don't know how long, but Phil had taken care of him, got his bike all tuned up, and um, he's like, I'm gonna head out, but I suspect you'll catch me. **** - (): And in my head, I didn't know whether that would be the case, but yeah, I ended up heading out of town and catching up with Doug, um, which was great to just know that I had someone to ride with. And he rebounded quite well for that last, um, the last 50 miles of the race. So we were very simpatico. [00:42:37] - (): Justin Bowes: Nice. Did, um, I didn't, I didn't ask you this, but, um, just talking about the aid stations. Did you have, did you give yourself like any treats, like something to look forward to in the aid stations or did you just keep it strictly business? I had a vision [00:42:51] - (): Craig Dalton: of a lot of treats. I asked, I asked, uh, Phil to get me some gummy bears. **** - (): Okay. Unfortunately, all the gummy bears melted in the sun and he, he did have everything. Like we had like sandwiches, he got a pizza from Casey's and I, I just, I felt like my nutrition was working. And so I was kind of like, besides some, um, Lay's potato chips, it's like, I'm just going to stick with the program. **** - (): I never rolled in feeling like super hungry or anything. So I was like, I'm doing something right. So why don't I just keep doing it? [00:43:28] - (): Justin Bowes: No, that's great. Yeah. I know, from other athletes that I've coached for the 200, they always, we'll have. I mean, yeah, the Casey's pizza is clutch. Like I think everybody knows, like if you're coming to the Midwest, um, you got to get a Casey's pizza in your aid station, um, or, a cheeseburger or, potato chips seem to be like, high on the list as well. **** - (): Yeah. That's, that tends to, uh, be a really fit, good favorite, just because, I mean, it's like the salt you want, the starch and the carbs and all of that goes down really easy. And then usually like a Mexican Coke to, to, to wash it down with. So how were your, um, timing wise, how long did you stop? [00:44:12] - (): Craig Dalton: Very little amount of time. I think my, my ride time was just under 13 hours, 30 and my total elapsed time was 14. [00:44:22] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. So two, two dedicated aid stations and two water. Yeah. And I stopped [00:44:28] - (): Craig Dalton: at both, I stopped at both aid stations. I honestly think at mile one 12 at that neutral aid station, when they were pouring water on me, that might've been longer than my checkpoint to stop [00:44:40] - (): Justin Bowes: looking at your file. **** - (): I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah. [00:44:44] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. So, yeah, it was a bit crazy. Like, I just didn't, I, like, I know myself, like I know I just need to keep going. So I didn't, I sat down for a minute and, Phil was great. He was like there with lots of stuff, but I was like, let's just swap the bottles out. He put some ice down my back, he put my pack in the cooler, like, to get ice water on it. **** - (): And, uh, after a few things, lubing up the chain, et cetera, making sure the bike was all right. Yeah. It just felt like it's time to go. [00:45:12] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, no, that's good. I, that's, definitely, um, a word of caution to, athletes, especially new to the 200 of like, unless you're in a bad state, in a bad way, uh, you want to minimize the amount of time you hang around in the aid station, just because your legs start to. **** - (): revolt a little bit and they don't want to cooperate, and so the, the shorter time you can, uh, the quicker you can get in and get out, um, with giving yourself enough time to resupply and not forget anything is always going to be better than just, standing around for, 10 plus minutes, John, John with everybody and things like that. **** - (): Cause if you don't need to, man, Yeah. A hundred percent. Get back after it. So. [00:46:01] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, at that second aid station mile one 48, I think Doug was a lot more conscious of the idea that we could beat the sun than I was. I think the last, the last 50 miles had been a little bit mentally hard on me. **** - (): I was not in a dark place by any means, but I'd kind of was like, this is what it is. Like I gotta, I'll pedal as far as I can pedal and as fast as I can pedal and it is what it is. But. He, he had never beat the sun before. And I think he saw it as a really great opportunity. And as we had talked about as my kind of, my number one goal was to finish. **** - (): Second goal was to finish healthy. And third goal was to beat the sun. Right. It was great to know it was out there. And the funny thing was my, my Wahoo was, it had 54 climbs as the listed number of climbs. And I believe by aid station two, by checkpoint two, we've done 52 of 54 climbs. [00:47:00] - (): Justin Bowes: Right, right. Yeah. [00:47:02] - (): Craig Dalton: Which is pretty, it's pretty crazy. So we've done like, close to 10, 000 feet of climbing already. And I think they maybe have listed it as 11. Anyway, negligible amount of climbing over the next 50 miles. So I was like, well, that's, that, that feels good to know that most of it's behind me. And, and, and everybody had said this, like getting to checkpoint two Was really the hardest part, right? **** - (): And you just need to ride back to Emporia. [00:47:25] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, exactly. I mean, there's always there's always going to be, a Joker station or, segment. Um, generally, it's like the Kohola, uh, Lake climb. Yeah. Um, and, For those who don't know, um, or didn't follow the weather or anything like that, we had pretty optimal conditions all day. **** - (): I mean, we started, um, cloud cover, cool, nice, favorable breeze, um, all of that. And, for us in the 100, it wasn't until we really got closer to Kohola Lake, I mean, it was like. After the aid station, which, we shared, um, there in council groves, um, the, the clouds were starting to thin out and you could, you see a little bit more of a shadow underneath you and everything like that. **** - (): Um, but it, you guys were in it a little longer, the heat, the sun and everything like that, but it still wasn't like in 2021 where it was just essentially a hairdryer. on your face, the entire day. Um, and so with the Kohola climb, that can always be a spoiler. Um, and I think I mentioned this to you on our call the other day. **** - (): It was like a lot of people, as soon as they get over that climb, you're roughly, inside the last 25 miles basically to, to the finish and. Yeah, your climbing's essentially done too and people like, oh, this is great and just like get on the gas and in a 10 mile span They're completely shattered and on the side of the road because they just completely underestimated You know, whether it be the previous 70 miles or the previous, 180 that you just did are in your legs and Any extra efforts can really put a Put you in the box really quickly. **** - (): And a lot of people's wheels fall off after that Cahola climb. Um, because they're like, Oh, we're done. Yeah. Yeah. But you're not done. You still got some mileage ahead of you. Yeah, [00:49:27] - (): Craig Dalton: exactly. I think we were, we were looking over our right shoulders at the sun and looking at it kind of starting to go down and we're like, we do need to keep going pretty efficiently [00:49:41] - (): Justin Bowes: to [00:49:41] - (): Craig Dalton: make it. **** - (): And, you go, you continue riding the dirt roads and then you go under the highway. And then you're at the university and you've got that final paved climb before the finish line. Yep. Um, and we're like, we've, we're like, we're going to do this. We're going to do this. [00:49:57] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. [00:49:58] - (): Craig Dalton: And I think we ended up finishing like 15 minutes to spare before the sunset. [00:50:03] - (): Justin Bowes: No, it's, it's, it's awesome. And I think, uh, to, to put it in context, um, this is the first year. That a lot of people were nervous about it because The start time had been pushed back, uh, to accommodate the new, uh, starting protocol with the, the pro men. Then 15 minutes later, the pro women, and then essentially a half an hour behind them, you all started. **** - (): So I mean, taking away 30 minutes doesn't sound like a lot, but when you're up against the sun actually setting on you, it, it, it comes quickly. Like you said, I mean, you had 15 ish minutes to, in your pocket, um, that could have easily gone one way or the other, um, quickly. So, yeah, [00:50:53] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, you, you could, you could see to your point earlier about the aid stations, like you could have very easily burned 15 minutes sitting around on your ass, having a pizza, [00:51:03] - (): Justin Bowes: totally. **** - (): And I mean, and not 15 minutes at one, you could do, Seven here, eight there. And in, in the grand scheme of things in a 14 hour raise, what's seven minutes. Right. Well, add that up and all of a sudden you're, you're finishing in the dark. [00:51:21] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. So a hundred percent. So, yeah, I mean, I haven't finished. **** - (): Crossing the finish line was, was great. I mean, riding down commercial street with, um, with Doug was just fantastic. That's so cool. Have us, yeah, have us both meet our goals and the crowd were great. And we've got our names announced and, uh, Yeah. It just like, it wasn't lost on me the entirety of the experience. **** - (): The town was wonderful. It's it's, it's obviously a grand spectacle of the gravel cycling community. Right. So I think coming down that I was, I was generally genuinely emotional, just felt very fulfilled with my day and effort to have it conclude before sunset and, come down that finishing line shoot. **** - (): It just. It felt great. [00:52:10] - (): Justin Bowes: Oh, I bet. I mean, I, I did share this with you, uh, the other day. Um, not only did I have you, have you, uh, competing, but I had, uh, one other in the 200 and another one in the a hundred and as a coach, even though I was racing, I still have like, you know, The best I could compare it to is, being a father of three, it's just like, it's like you're looking after your kids, right? **** - (): You're nervous for them. Yeah. And, um, and so after I got done and cleaned up and went about the rest of my day on, on, on Saturday and everything like that, now I turn my I turned my browser to the race results to see, how everybody's faring out there and projected times and, and things like that. **** - (): And when I, when I popped open my laptop and, and pulled up the results and you were still on a course, obviously, but, uh, just seeing your splits come in and everything, I was just like. Damn right, like, look at this guy go, like, he's, he's actually doing this and, um, we can talk about it all the time, as coaches of like, I know that I was giving you the proper training, and you were executing the training and things like that. **** - (): But you never, I mean, there's so many variables that can show up on race day and, Mechanically, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, you had a clean race mechanically, right? Yeah, [00:53:30] - (): Craig Dalton: totally clean. Yeah. [00:53:31] - (): Justin Bowes: And for that to happen just by itself is amazing. And then on top of that, you hit your nutrition and hydration and everything just, it worked, and so, um, with, with a race like unbound, You know that something's going to go wrong, somewhere, some way, something's going to happen. And it's, it's, it's such a rarity to have a clean run, especially on your first time, not knowing what to expect and, and all of that. Um, but for you to be so successful with that, um, And it was just, yeah, as your coach and now as your friend, um, I'm just super excited for you. **** - (): I was just, I was over the moon, um, excited to see your finishing time and, and, uh, to, to just hear, hear it in your voice and, and at first it was, it was just in text messages back and forth, but just, getting the tone of like, Your satisfaction with everything was just, it's, it's huge. And yeah, it was awesome to, to be a small part of that. [00:54:37] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, no, it means a lot. It's been, it's been a great journey working together. It's been very fun. I, I haven't had proper coaching in ages. Um, and I recommend it. I recommend you, I recommend fast cat. It was just, it was enjoyable to just Go through a process, see improvement, uh, along the way, build confidence to do something that I'd never done before. **** - (): And frankly, that I was, a bit scared of this whole journey started because I wanted to do something that scared me. Um, and, and to come out the other side of it, just, I'm very grateful for the entire experience, the last six months [00:55:18] - (): Justin Bowes: Oh man, Craig, it's, it, again, it's been a privilege and Just exciting to, to, to see how you developed and just your professionalism with, with regards to your training and, accepting some new guy that you've never met before, be like in charge of this craziness. **** - (): Um, and, um, yeah, it just, you, you didn't flinch. Um, I, I appreciate you being cautiously. Questioning about hate, why are we doing it this way? Why, where are we going? Um, why would you have me do this instead of that? Um, I mean that, it wasn't like I ever thought, Oh, he's questioning my ability or anything like that. **** - (): He just generally wants to know why we're doing the training that we're doing. And, um, and I appreciate that. Like I love, when, when, when my athletes are like engaged. To the point that they want to know, I mean, it's, it's nice to when you just blindly follow the plan, but, when, when you're so engaged and you're so invested in the outcome of this goal that you've set for yourself and you're like, Hey, I just want to know what's going on and. **** - (): It, it just, it tells me again, it's just another little, box to check, with, with my coaching hat on of like this, this athlete is he, he's invested, like he cares and he wants to do what needs to be done to, to, to succeed at this goal. And that makes a big difference on my end, um, because then I know, yeah, these are going to be hard workouts and they're going to put them in the box a couple times. **** - (): But because he wants it and he's, he's, he's wanting to follow the plan, um, and be consistent with it, he's going to do really well. And, um, yeah, it showed. So, um, one, one final question. If I can, um, and I, I touched on it on our call the other day is like on a scale one to 10, how would you rate this overall experience from training to the event to your, your overall experience with, with Unbound here? [00:57:34] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I said it last week and I think I'll stick to it. It's a 10 out of 10 for me. Okay. And. Yeah, the only, I hesitated a second there, Justin, because I might've knocked it down to a 9. 5 because I, again, like I watched someone else's video and I was like, Maybe I could have pushed a little harder early on, but it's in the grand scheme of things, neither here nor there. **** - (): Like, I think again, like the, I learned a lot along the way. It was fascinating, working with a power meter, thanks to SRM, uh, using their power meter pedals. It was interesting to me going carb journey and trying to figure out, would that work for me? Along the way, everything was, great on the training. **** - (): Like we had to cram a little bit, but that was all good. The family was super supportive of it. And then, getting to Emporia and having that bluebird of a day, um, was something, that it couldn't have counted on at all in terms of the weather. The, the mileage came easy and fast. The technical elements of it were no issue for me whatsoever. **** - (): And I felt like I had the right bike to take a few hits harder than I might have wanted to, to keep the pace going, but never had any issues there. And then to, to ride with my buddy Doug and have the experience with the, the whole crew. We had a number of guys doing the hundred and one guy doing the three 50. **** - (): Great to make some new friends out there within the houses we were staying at. And the overall experience, yeah. 10 out of 10. [00:59:06] - (): Justin Bowes: Nice. Okay, good. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, yeah. When, when you shared that with me the other day, um, yeah, I got off our call and I was just like, Um, I was just like, all right, I, I, it just, it's, it's, it's so rewarding, um, to see an athlete just like check all those boxes and, feel good about, what they accomplished. **** - (): Um, because yeah, I can put together the plan for you. Um, but it's ultimately all on your shoulders to execute. Yeah. Take care of all this, the variables outside of the training plan that is, you know, recovering responsibly, being, diligent to, the consistency of, following the plan and all those little things that I can't, I can't even like begin to. **** - (): Yeah. Help you with, that's just your wife, and so, um, again, Greg. Congratulations. It's, it's so cool to, to see and, and have a time like that. Um, I'll, I'll give the listeners, a little, uh, number crunch here real quick. You're right. I mean, you were just in under, um, 1330 at 1327 for 203 miles. **** - (): Um, TSS, obviously off the charts with 645, um, that's, to be expected for sure. Um, average speed, I mean, just over 15 miles an hour for the 200 miles over that type of terrain is fantastic. Um, your normalized power, um, was so good. Um, Yeah, it was just the only thing that we didn't capture was heart rate. **** - (): Um, [01:00:48] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, I failed to talk about that. I was so mad for so long that my strap wasn't working. [01:00:54] - (): Justin Bowes: It's the worst when it's on and there's just nothing you can do about it. I kept [01:00:59] - (): Craig Dalton: thinking like by the first aid station, I would take everything off and recover it, which I did. And then it still didn't work. Yeah. **** - (): And like halfway through. The next segment, I just like ripped it off my body and shoved it in my pocket. [01:01:12] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. I mean, just, I mean, that's, that's one like little nitpick on my end and sense of like, it would just been really interesting to see, um, the correlation between your power and the heart rate and where, I mean, it ultimately, it was always going to drop off and start to decouple, but you know where that was for you. **** - (): Um, because then, for me, I can go back to the training and say, okay, yeah, this is, this is white. We went as far as we did and, and all of that. So, oh yeah, yeah. I mean, so there's, there was one less than ideal thing, pop up out of here and it was stupid heart rate monitor. So. [01:01:51] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. **** - (): In the grand scheme of things. [01:01:53] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. [01:01:54] - (): Craig Dalton: Justin, thanks so much for coming back on board and helping me recount this, uh, this event or this experience that's going to be in my memory for a long time. [01:02:02] - (): Justin Bowes: With that, is there an Unbound in your future again or too soon? [01:02:07] - (): Craig Dalton: It's a little too soon. And I think I mentioned to you that last week, it's hard to imagine having a better day out there. **** - (): Then, then I had all things considered and with so many great events out there that I would love to do in time away from the family. I don't, I don't know if unbound would be it again. [01:02:26] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, no, that's fair. That's fair. [01:02:27] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, [01:02:28] - (): Justin Bowes: no, I mean, it's hard to go out. And, as, as good as you did. And like you said, I mean, uh, another experience would it, taint this one, and in the sense of like, next year is like, flats on flats on flats or, body shuts down or, whatever the case may be, or the worst weather ever. **** - (): I mean, so yeah, go, go out on top. [01:02:50] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. I'm going out on top, I think on the 200. For me, it's either like. Go shorter and actually like, see what it's like to race an event. Cause I don't, the 200 miler, like it's hard to consider it a race for me. It was really about managing my way across the finish line as efficiently as possible. **** - (): Or going the other way, which has always attracted me, which is like the bike packing. route and, trying some of the real long distance stuff longer than 200 miles. Sure. [01:03:18] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. The, the 350, the XL crew, that is, that's next level, man. Yeah. I, I, I always, I always like tease myself, like, that would be so cool just like to push your limits. **** - (): Um, And, and, and see what that's like, um, for that distance and everything. But then reality kind of sets in on me and like, you, you're not going to do that. So I'll stick with my hundred. I love my hundred distance. [01:03:44] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there is like an overnight riding experience that I need to have as that next unchecked box. I've sure I've done like the team racing 24 hours, but I've never done. Sort of a self supported overnight. [01:03:59] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Yeah. [01:03:59] - (): Craig Dalton: Straight through. So I am, I am curious about that. Why don't we leave it at that? **** - (): That'll be a mystery. And if, if, and when I decide to do something crazy like that, we'll chat more about it. [01:04:09] - (): Justin Bowes: Heck yeah. Love that. [01:04:12] - (): Craig Dalton: Good to talk to you, Justin. [01:04:13] - (): Justin Bowes: Craig, it was great seeing you and congrats again, man. It's awesome. [01:04:17] - (): Craig Dalton: Thank you.      

Is your relationship navigating the choppy waters of midlife? Then you are not alone. In this week's deep dive on "The Hormone Prescription Podcast," we unpack the conversations you need to have but might be dreading. This episode, we tackle erectile dysfunction (ED) head-on with the formidable Dr. Elliot Justin. Let's not skirt around the issue—the man in your life's ED affects both of you deeply. It's essential to address it not just for his well-being, but for yours and your relationship's health. Dr. Justin strides into the studio with an awe-inspiring list of credentials: urologist, innovative thinker, and couples' counselor extraordinaire, renowned for bringing new perspectives to midlife challenges. Today, he shares the collective wisdom garnered from years at the forefront of men's health and intimate relationships. Midlife can feel like a carnival of changes and curveballs. But when the elephant in the room is ED, that jovial atmosphere quickly transforms into a solo tightrope walk. Dr. Justin encourages us to transform this walk into a joint tightrope act, one that strengthens your bond and navigates the complexities of progesterone to performance. About Dr. Elliot Justin: ELLIOT JUSTIN, MD, FACEP, is the CEO and Founder of FirmTech, the first sex tech company dedicated to improving men's erectile fitness. He has a background in Emergency Medicine and healthcare technology consulting. Dr. Justin is also a serial healthcare entrepreneur, having founded and sold Pegasus Emergency Group and Swift MD. He has provided guidance to various services, telemedicine, and tech startups. Dr. Justin pursued Slavic Studies at Harvard University and studied medicine at Boston University. Happily married for 35 years, and father of three children, Elliot and Ann live in Montana with three energetic mares and a flock of chickens So, what can you expect to uncover in this eye-opening chat? Insights You Can't Afford to Ignore: Understand just how much ED can influence your daily life, and how to navigate these changes with grace. The Expert's Plan for Partnership: Dr. Justin's wealth of knowledge and experience is distilled into practical strategies to face the ED challenge as a team. Innovative Approaches to Speak Up and Heal: Discover modern ways to approach ED—no more outdated stigmas, only up-to-date solutions. Communication is Key to Connection: Learn the importance of open and honest conversation, and some powerful dialogue strategies for building bridges. Success Stories that Give Hope: Real-life experiences and victories will inspire you on your own journey through midlife. This episode bears all, from tender anecdotes to strategic wisdom, and catapults us into a space where ED isn't just a problem to overcome, but a journey to undertake together. So gather your wits and your earbuds—this one's going to shake up the midlife conversation in all the best ways. Tune into "The Hormone Prescription Podcast" now. And remember, don't just listen—subscribe, review, and transform the narrative of midlife with us.   Speaker 1 (00:00): “What goes up does not have to come down until you're ready.” Dr. Elliot. Justin, stay tuned to find out why your partner's ED is essential to address and how. Speaker 2 (00:12): So the big question is, how do women over 40 like us keep weight off, have great energy, balance our hormones in our moods, feel sexy and confident, and master midlife? If you're like most of us, you are not getting the answers you need and remain confused and pretty hopeless to ever feel like yourself again. As an O-B-G-Y-N, I had to discover for myself the truth about what creates a rock solid metabolism, lasting weight loss, and supercharged energy after 40, in order to lose a hundred pounds and fix my fatigue. Now I'm on a mission. This podcast is designed to share the natural tools you need for impactful results and to give you clarity on the answers to your midlife metabolism challenges. Join me for tangible, natural strategies to crush the hormone imbalances you are facing and help you get unstuck from the sidelines of life. My name is Dr. Kyrin Dunston. Welcome to the Hormone Prescription Podcast. Speaker 1 (01:05): Hi everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The Hormone Prescription. Thank you so much for joining me today as we dive into the topic of erectile dysfunction for men. You know, it's kind of interesting that, you know, we women actually get erections of our clitoris. It's really a mini penis and most women aren't aware of that. And if you are not getting erections, that's something that needs to be addressed. I think we dive into this in this episode. In the interview we talk a little bit about this. He calls it something else for women, but for men and women, it really can be a sign of larger health issues, particularly related to your cardiac function, to your heart that can be lethal. So it's something you need to pay attention to. A lot of guys don't talk to their doctors about this issue because they're embarrassed and really, yeah, those days are over. Speaker 1 (02:02): You need to start talking to your doctors about your sex. You just do. It's imperative. Your sex is not separate from . Your total function, your liver function, your hormone function, your brain function, your gastrointestinal digestive function, your heart cardiac function, your sex is an essential part of your body, of who you are, how you function, your vitality. We get into that in this episode. Dr. Justin is on the same page with me. So if your doctor is ignoring your sexuality and not talking to you about it, it's time that you brought it up and demand to have it addressed and also for your partner. But I know that we women sometimes play that role for the men in our lives to be the one to help them get over themselves and talk about this with their doctor. So we're gonna talk about how to do that in this episode and more. Speaker 1 (02:57): Dr. Justin is not only a physician who's treated many, many patients, but he's a researcher, he's a developer, and he, like me, is always thinking about how we can serve people better? How can we help them live healthier, happier, longer lives? So I think you're gonna love Dr. Justin as much as I love talking to him. Just note, this is an explicit interview. So we do say some words that you might not want your kiddos to hear. So if you don't want them to hear it, you might wanna switch to a different episode and listen to this when you are in privacy. Just a note and I'll tell you a little about Dr. Justin. Then we'll get started. So, Dr. Elliot, Justin is a medical doctor fellow and CEO of the founder of Firm Tech. It's the first sex tech company dedicated to improving men's erectile fist fitness. Most sex companies are just sex toy companies, but this is a tech company to improve erectile fitness. He has a background in emergency med and healthcare technology consulting, and he is a serial healthcare entrepreneur, like I said, always developing things to help people live better lives. And he founded and sold multiple companies and provided guidance to various services. And he's just an all around badass who loves helping people. So I think you're gonna enjoy this episode. Without further ado, please help me welcome Dr. Elliot Justin to the show. Speaker 3 (04:31): Thanks. I welcome the opportunity to speak. Speaker 1 (04:32): Yeah. I'm really excited to have you on because you and I both know that men are not talking to their doctors about their erectile difficulties, their sexual difficulties, or low libido, all the problems they're having in the bedroom. We know that they, there are women, female partners are aware, and therefore we're really the ones that need the information. So if you're a woman listening, listen up, because really, I always say that erectile dysfunction could save a man's life, and we're gonna talk about that and you're probably scratching your head going, how could that save a man's life? But I wanna start by, I could explain that, know you have a background. Yeah, we'll get to that. You have a background in emergency medicine and healthcare technology. So what got you interested in diving deeper into the subject of men's sexuality and erectile dysfunction and men's sexual health? Speaker 3 (05:34): Well, my background, I'm an emergency medicine physician, and since 2015, my, I've been doing medical technology. That's how I got to this as an emergency medicine doctor, I can assure you that's short of a heart attack or a stroke. There are a few emergencies I could concern a man as much as a lip dick. So this is something that's of, of, you know, of vital importance to men, both their self-esteem and their health. I got involved in this. I was actually working on a very complicated catheter to regulate blood pressure after a stroke. A urologist heard what I was doing and said, I see you've done some research with neuromodulation of erectile function, which I had a neuromodulation for. We mean placing electrodes by a nerve and nerves. The paradigm for that is cardiac pacemaker that controls your heart, your heart, even have to even after you're dead. Speaker 3 (06:17): My thought was if we can control sexuality, the impact on, on, on an aging population would be enormous. I will say that project failed. I tried to neuromodulation the cous nerve, which everyone's favorite nerve no has heard about. Suppose the nerve that's responsible produce orgasms in men or women. We try it out on, on some, on some sheep. And actually, and on myself. We, we to no effect. I actually don't think that we know how orgasms are produced. It's very complicated. Well, oddly, even more complicated than, than the heart. So this urologist came to me about in 2015 and said, I wanna count the number nocturnal erection, not two, excuse me, came me three years ago, 2020, and said, I wanna count the number of nocturnal erections that are leading indicator of mass cardiovascular health. And I said, really? I know, I know anything about it. Speaker 3 (07:03): I, you know, I mean, everyone knows about morning wood. We poke up partners where it, we made, we laugh about it. But a healthy man has three to five nocturnal erections per night. And if that number goes down, it's a sign of an impending heart attack or stroke. So it's not just an association. Blood take, taking a blood high blood pressure is associated with stroke and heart attack. Declined number of nocturnal reactions is actually a leading indicator. It's predictive. So that I thought, gee, that could be enormous as an emergency medicine doctor. But a, that's another vital sign and a vital sign that would be much more compelling to men probably than any other than the other, other vital signs. And we live in this age of healthcare wearables for pretty much everything except for sex. And what do men, frankly, women care more about? Speaker 3 (07:43): How many steps they took yesterday or their calorie count or this or this or, or their sexual health. And that's, you know, that's a, that's a rhetoric, rhetoric question for most people. So the numbers are enormous, as you indicated earlier. I mean, 50% of men by age 50 have erectile dysfunction. It's even higher for women. And why is it higher for women? Because postmenopausal women lose their hormonal protection against heart disease. So postmenopausal women have all the same problems that men deal with. Diabetes, high blood pressure, atherosclerosis, auto attacks, et cetera. But premenopausal women take SSR antidepressants and they take hormones all which have, both of which have a significant impact upon their sexual performance as a health. So with d with data, we give people data. We can now transform the quality of, of, of, of health, of healthcare. We can transform how things are managed. Speaker 3 (08:35): 'Cause There's a cliche, if you can track it, you can hack it. So right now, when it comes to sexual health, doctors just really just have opinions. If I go, I'm 70 years old. If I went to a urologist or a sexologist right now and said, I like where my, where my sexual health is right now. I can perform every day. My wife and I are happy, but I wanna keep it there. What can ha what can you tell me? Or I told him, you know, I'm having, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm struggling getting erections. They can wave an ultrasound over my, over my penis in the office, but I'm not getting aroused. I'm not finding out what I really wanna know, which is what's happening when I'm trying to, trying to perform. So if we can give people data, they can then measure the impact of diseases, medications, diet, self effects, all these claims that are made and see what works for them. Speaker 1 (09:18): Yeah. You know, you, you've made so many great points in that. I just wanna go back and highlight a couple of them. Sure. So number one is that most women don't realize that erectile dysfunction is a problem for women. Women, yes. We get erections, ladies, right? 'cause Our clitoris is a small penis and they do get erect with sexual arousal. And that we women just write off that we're not getting aroused. We don't have orgasms as, oh, it's only a pleasure problem. But it's not just like for men, like you said, it's a leading indicator for cardiac disease. It is a leading indicator for cardiac disease and hormonal poverty for you ladies. So I just wanna highlight that because I think that's essential. But now I wanna go back. So this is great. Okay. That you, you really saw that there was a need for this. And you probably recognize men aren't gonna go to the doctor for this. They're not gonna talk about it. And so you started looking at ways that they could actually measure this themselves, right? Speaker 3 (10:22): Correct. Well, the doctors are really ignorant about this. Mm-Hmm. , I'll, I'll give you two examples in, I was approached by Dr. Hot Hotel and professor of urology at University of Utah to count the nerve nocturnal erections. And he wanted to embed sensors into a device like a condom ring that had six mm-Hmm. But it would have six times the elasticity of the condom ring. And I looked at this device and said, well, that's not gonna work because condom rings break. So have he been a urologist unaware of the fact that this piece of common technology is actually vulnerable to breaking also condom rings can rotate, which means, which means, means you have rotational artifact. And my thought to hit the response was, well, let's do better than that. Let's try to do more than just count the number in external erections. Let's try to figure out the health of all erections. So my thought was to embed sensors into an advanced form of an erection ring or cochran instead of colloquially known as this doctor, I've never used the cockran. Now I have yet to find, well, here's a joke we have at medical, at medical congresses. I'll ask you, how do you tell the difference between a straight doctor and a gay doctor? You ask one question, Rin, Speaker 1 (11:27): Have you used a coching? Is that the question? ? That's Speaker 3 (11:30): The question you got. How have you used a coching? You got, and the answer is, and, and a straight doctor's like nine is like never. 'cause They just, whether it's male pride or I don't, you know, straight doctors treat rings like a Suman kryptonite. I don't need that. Gay doctors will be like, yeah, like last night you got a better one. So gay straight doctors aren't open to the really, what should be the, the first line of therapy for man who has dysfunction? Then you have, there's no, there's no sense from these doctors about what is, what is normal sexual behavior. The scoring systems that are used by urologists, by sexologists to evaluate men or women for that matter, are focused on penetrative sex. There's the shim score, the atom, the eye, you're probably familiar with these. They don't reflect what people are actually doing. Speaker 3 (12:14): Mo most se most, most sex between, between partners over the age of 40. Penetration is just a part of it. It's not the focus, it's not the endpoint. And these studies, like something out of the 1950s or 60, are focused on that as an endpoint. Then urologists think, okay, the first line of therapy is to give a PD five medication with Viagra, Ali, p and d, you know, the, the top ones. But those medications put more blood into the penis, but they don't keep it there. Mm-Hmm. most men's problem is not getting it up. Most men's problem is losing an erection. That could happen for a whole variety of reasons from anxiety, diabetes, hypertension, alcohol, drugs. And then the most common one that urologists don't think about because all men get it, all women get it too, which is venous leak syndrome. Speaker 3 (12:57): Urologists are sure are surgery oriented. The pill doesn't work. They wanna put an implants into a penis or, or do some sort of surgical procedure. So venous leak syndrome is something that we can be born with. Very, very few men have it where you get blood, the penis, but it leaks out because the muscles that control the veins to hold the blood of the penis aren't, aren't very strong. Venous leak syndrome is something we all experience as we get older. I don't know how old you are. I'm 70. If I sit on a plane for five or six hours, my socks will start to pinch. My wedding band will, my finger will be hard, hard to take off my finger because I have venous link. 'cause As I get older, the, the muscles and my small veins don't pump blood back to my heart as effectively. Speaker 3 (13:32): It's the same thing for the penis. As we get older, our, our our, the smooth muscles weaken in our penis. We get an erection and we lose it. Now, that loss could be accelerated by anxiety or it can be the very cause of anxiety or, or caused by medications. Our research shows the big cocktails are SR antidepressants and anti antihypertensive and or in combination. But the solution is a plumbing solution. The P five medications put more blood in the penis. A properly used Cochran holds the blood in the penis, allowing a man to sustain erection for more, for a more satisfactory time period. Coing should be mainstreamed. I look at vibrators in my lifetime. My mother's vibrator was in a bottom dress drawer of a supply closet. Just thought we'd never find it. . We didn't know what it was. Speaker 3 (14:15): We found it. You know, I don't, my wife probably owns seven or eight. My daughter takes 'em on dates. They've been mainstreamed. It's no longer considered to be shameful for women to use a vibrator. Most women, I think in the latest report there were 60 women, 60 million women in the United States own more than one. What do men have? Well, they have these monstrous things called strokers. Like somebody could beat something to death with, they don't have anything, but, but they do have rings. But cochlea have been made the wrong way for many years. Can I, may I explain? Yeah. So I want to come up with a ring that could be worn overnight. Well, this cause I want to count data. I want to count these nocturnal erections. I also want to come up with a ring that could be worn comfortably during sex with sensors inside of it in order to record the duration of the firmness. Speaker 3 (14:56): Every erection. So we get baseline data on man's sexual health. But ings have been made for 150 years out of tight silicone rings. You have to have an erection before you put them on. 'cause They choke off the blood supply. It's like a NOIs on of penis. I mean, it's like some design by a hangman. I mean, so I thought, let's make coch rings out of a soft elastomer. So these are, I dunno if on camera right now, but these, these, our rings are unique. They're, they're made out of a, out of a soft elastomer. So they're comfortable with us. Silicone makes us adapt to them. I also wanted the ring to be safe, easy on, easy off. Many men are overweight. They, they, they can't, they can't even see their penis. Men who they're, they're anxious. These things need to be made very, very easy for them. Speaker 3 (15:35): I would suspect that about half the se heterosexual sex in the world starts when a man is scratching his wife's back. When she takes a bra off at night. Women don't like bras in their back because they're silicone in the back. It's itchy to the skin. I was looking at my wife's bra on the ground and I thought, oh, a hook. Women don't put on bras over their heads. A bras is a ring that opens and closes with a hook. Let's make an erection ring with a hook. So it's easy on, easy off. And then let's also design a ring. But that man can put on when he is flacid. So we can put on discreetly, put on hours before second. It could be worn for hours. So it doesn't block the arterial flow. It only constrains the return. And then let's also try to design a ring that will make a man's pleasure more intense. Speaker 3 (16:19): It's not a vibrator. The way we do that with a man is we draw out the. So we tested a ring on a group of men between the ages of 27 and 70. The goal is that if we put the right, we want to increase the ejaculatory phase by 50%. So with this ring, my ejaculatory phase goes from four seconds to seven seconds. That's a significantly more powerful orgasm. I think it's good as a vibrator, but it's, if it's for an instantly more powerful orgasm. But more importantly now, by putting sensors into it, we, we have a ring that's comfortably worn overnight to count nocturnal erections, which are leading the indicator mass. Cardiovascular health and wandering sex. The ring can measure the duration of firmness of erections. So now men can measure the impact of everything from medications, diseases, supplements, diets, relationships. Mm-Hmm. on sexual performance and say what works, what doesn't work. Speaker 1 (17:07): So I wanna ask you, because you mentioned this before we started recording, and then we touched a little bit on it just then that vibrators are mainstream for women. I mean, there are all kinds you can get like, what did I see online? It was like a superhero shaped vibrator. And I mean, they got everything. So sex toys for women are really mainstream, but not for men unless they're gay men. Why do you think that is? Speaker 3 (17:34): Well, I think there's several reasons. I think women, one, represent a much larger market. Women do women make what? Like 80% of the purchases overall in the United States or, I, I I think that might, I think it might be worldwide women purchase. If you exclude condoms, women purchase the majority of the sex toys. So when people look at numbers in, in the sex toy area, they say, oh, well men buy more. Well, not, that's not that. Once you exclude condoms, then it's, you know, then it's women. I think women are more open-minded rep represent a larger market. I also think the vibrators have been so enormously successful. No one else has figured out something equivalent for, you know, for men. I think for gay men, it's different. They're really, really focused on, on sexual pleasure and much less inhibited. Mm-Hmm. . And also anal sex requires a harder penis. It's harder to penetrate the anal sphincter than it is to penetrate a vagina. So a ring becomes, you know, it's almost a necessary tool. Speaker 1 (18:28): Okay. You, you made a comment though before we were recording. There's something about you, the way you said it was pretty comical because you said if a woman brings sex toys into the bedroom, so can you share that, that no problem. Yeah, sure. But if a man, then what happens? Yeah. Speaker 3 (18:44): When managers introduce sex toys, the industry surveys say they get used one or two times and then they get thrown out. If a woman introduces a sex toy, it, it gets used for as long and as often as she wants, wants it to be used. But, that also inhibits men from buying sex toys as well too, because they're not gonna get used. I also, I don't think any effort has really been made by the industry to make sex, make conquering sexy. But, but I, but the data shows this, this is a really important 'cause and there's, we, we've had an internal study to this effect. And there's gonna be big paper, two pi papers, spout rings at the American Neurology Association and Congress coming up, coming up in in May one is going, is going to show that if a man wants to have a longer lasting erection, a ring is more, more effective than a PD five medication. Speaker 3 (19:27): Well, big pharma's not gonna like that. And the heterosexual doctors have frankly been, they should have caught on this a long time ago. And if we're using rings, they would realize it. But a ring to dil in our internal data will keep, we were looking at D 2 cent data. So no one has studied D two ence. D two s is the time it takes for an erection to go down. We didn't measure time to go up because there's so many variables involved in that. Are you with a partner? Are you masturbating just by watching porn? You're drinking? We are just interested in the time it takes for erection to go down. 'cause That would be a measure of how much blood is held in the penis. So the ring alone, dala fill alone sustains an erection on the average of two, two to three minutes afterwards. The ring is about four and a half minutes long. And a ring plus the film is about five and a half minutes. So that those are men without Ed. So the takeaway message really is for all men would be, if you want to have a longer lasting, harder erection, put a ring on it and take a pill. Also, if you're a man who suffers prematurely and you want to keep thrusting afterwards comfortably, not uncomfortably, put a ring on it, take a pill. Mm-Hmm, Speaker 1 (20:30): , you made the comment several times, and I don't wanna bypass it because I think it's worth talking about. 'cause I know somebody listening is wondering why are doctors so phobic about talking about sex? You know, sexual function is a leading indicator of your overall health and vitality. So looking at a male man or woman's sexual functioning, I think is vital to their overall health assessment. And if there's any difficulty there, it's essential to evaluate it because it corresponds to cortisol stress hormone levels, and there are other sex hormone levels and vascular function, cardiac function, but also as a preventative practice, just like drinking enough water, just like enough aerobic exercise, weight bearing exercise, sex, regular, active, pleasurable sex is vital in promoting vitality. So what are we missing? Because I know women are listening, why isn't my doctor talking to me about this? Why isn't my doctor talking to my partner about this? What is the problem with doctors here? Speaker 3 (21:41): I have so angry about this issue because we physicians are doing our patients a horrific disservice. I'm seven years old, I'm a doctor. Doctor should feel comfortable talking to me. I've never had a doctor warn me about the sexual side effects of medication. I've never had a doctor ask me about my marriage. Did not ask those questions. Is stupid. It's insensitive. Now. One reason is there are no boxes to check for those things. There's no way of making money addressing those things that they should. And, and, and it actually applies to urologists as well too. They often don't take complete sex stories with people, but just, Hey, here's a PD five medication. We'll do an ultrasound. You're not working. You need an implant. You're not helping a person that way. I completely agree with you. Studies show that if someone has sex every day, their cortisol levels significantly improve. Speaker 3 (22:27): If men were in control study, big study was done. Whales, I think of Scotland. If men have men with equivalent cardiovascular disease at age 70 start having sex twice a week, their risk of cardiac arrest goes down 50% over the next five years. The benefits are enormous. And we should be recommending to people to have more sex. We doctors make recommendations about diet, about exercise, about sleep, and we don't speak about sex. And if we do speak about it, we are embarrassed. We have, believe me, people wanna talk about it. My, my last year of emergency medicine clinical practice, I said, you know what, I'm just going to do what I was trained to do in medical school. I'm gonna add a sexual history to pretty much all my exams. Well, it turned out even people came in with an ankle sprain. Wanna talk about both? A lot of 'em just wanna talk about their sex lives and they don't wanna talk about this spouse who wants to tell you all about it. Speaker 3 (23:15): So people, men and women are hungry for this information. And they're, to your point, and I would like to bring it up, Dr. Dustin, we doctors are doing them a tremendous disservice. But I don't know if doctors, mostly doctors are even capable of discussing it because they're kind of, they're relative as, as, as a group. They're relatively pr and conservative in conservative sort. An old, an old fashioned kind of, you know, you know, meaning about sex. Before I got involved in this field, I never, I never went to sexual congresses of urology or society of sexual methodology, which is no one's talk. There's very little talk about pleasure. All the focus is on surgery and pills. And it's not focused on what most con what concerns most people, which is how do I maintain my sexual health if I, if I'm poor sexual health, how, what can I do to reverse it? It's, you know, the, the focus of the doctors is, is on things, I'll be blunt things that make them money. Yeah, Speaker 1 (24:06): That's unfortunate. And really sex has been relegated to the closet for everyone. And it's such a vital part of health prevention, of promotion, of vitality, prevention of disease. I would be remiss if I didn't ask about, you mentioned some causes and contributors to erectile dysfunction, sexual dysfunction in men. If we didn't talk about porn, because that's epidemic among men in the United States all over the world, globally, how does that affect, and I know there's some women listening who are like, my husband watches porn. Is that part of the problem? Well, Speaker 3 (24:42): I'm, I'm, I'm ambivalent about porn because for a lot of men it is an escape to a world where they, where they, where in fantasy they, they get what they want and the things that they're not getting from their partners, male or female partners. For some people porn is beneficial. And so are we gonna ban porn because it's also harmful to some people. I wish that people could discuss porn with their partners. That's really where the where it comes in porn becomes. It can become a window into finding out what someone else's fantasies are. And most people, too many people don't have sex regularly. They, so before I talk about, talk about porn, because I'm, I I'm gonna get, I'll get you the mail, the major male complaint about porn in a moment. Mm-Hmm. men, too many people stop making love. Hmm. That's, they need to plan for pleasure. Speaker 3 (25:23): I mean, I, it it, I bring this up with guys at the gym or women, women too, which is like, Hey, you these, because they know what, they know what I'm doing. You, you let me know your love life is not satisfactory. How many hours do you spend working out a week? It'd be like, oh, 10, 14 hours. And I'll say, if you could just take two hours of that away and put that into your relationship, and they look at me like, men and women look at me like I'm nuts. Well, it's that, that that can't be done. I said, yeah, it can be done and should be done with planning. You know, a good love making is no more spontaneous than a good exercise session or, or a great meal meal. I don't just up a great meal Speaker 1 (25:57): Meal or a great vacation. I Speaker 3 (25:58): Don't, I don't go there, I don't, I don't know the refrigerator and say, Hey, what, what are the leftovers? Let's have leftovers again, . And that's what, and that's, let's have rotisserie chicken for the third night in a row. And that's the problem with a lot of people sex . They, they, they get bored with what they're doing with their partners and they don't talk about it. Speaker 1 (26:15): That analogy. But I love it. It's great. It's so true. You know, and, and I recently, I've really been diving the past six or so months into sacred sexuality and womb wisdom and the whole, you know, three types of orgasms or more, actually five, that women can have. And in diving into this, I've read a lot where the biggest problem for most women regarding sex and why they don't wanna have it, is because their men don't know how to properly work the machinery, how to please them, the different types of orgasms, what's required to get their motors going. And for them to become satisfied and actually to make love. They know how to wham bam, thank you man, kind of ma'am have sex, but they don't know how to make love. And so I'm wondering, where do guys supposed to learn this? Where Speaker 3 (27:06): Are women supposed to learn? I mean, you, you, because men have all the same complaints about women, men my age and men younger. It's like, oh, she's all, you know, she's, she, she thinks she tugs on my, my penis. Like, like, like, like an arm a machine or, you know, so people, this, this issue cuts both ways. Okay? And this is where people, people need to, people need to, my opinion, they, they need to, to communicate better about what they want. I mean, I, I'll get back to, I'll get back to, to my food analogy. Mm-Hmm. My wife is in the room right now. I don't know what she wants for dinner. And I could eat, you know, I, you know, so I, if, if I want, if I want to, if I wanna really make her happy with, for dinner tonight, I should explore what her, her ideas are. Speaker 3 (27:45): I think when it comes to sex, people kind of settle into both parties. I go down on her, she comes and then I penetrate her. That's kind of pretty, pretty standard and pretty boring sex that goes, that goes on for most people. This, they would, they would communicate. And that's what, that's, that's where I think porn can be valuable. People watch, if people explore porn together, they will expl expand their vocabulary for love, you know, for, you know, for love making. Also, there are a lot of guys for porn, porn is an outlet for them. The way shopping is for women and people like to say that, that porn built the web, but porn might have built the web originally. But shopping sustains the web, women do 85 to 90% of shopping online. Women have done studies showing that women get the same dopamine hits in their brain that men do from shopping, that men do from Washington porn. So gone to the point of Congress as people like to blame the other sex, but they need to, you know, examine what they're doing. And then they, then they need, they, they need to communicate better about what, about what their mutual needs are and be more. Right. Not saying nothing. Speaker 1 (28:45): That's fascinating information about shopping. I didn't know that's the case. So you're kind of equating the two. Speaker 3 (28:51): If women think it's ridiculous that a man wants to look at eight, eight bodies online, a guy might also think it's ridiculous that the woman needs to look at 25 shoes online. It's, it's, it's . You know, it's, I mean, but meanwhile to your, you know, Dr. Doc, Dustin, to your point, they could be making love. They could be. They could be. And that's the problem. They're not talking, they're not not playing for pleasure. They're not communicating. In addition to which there are other problems, which circle back to which we, people are taking a lot of medications to interfere with their sexual performance with, you know, half the adult population being diabetic, hypertensive 20, 25% taking anti antis antidepressants. All these drugs have, have, and these diseases have significant impact upon, upon their sexual performance. And people. And the doctors don't do a good job about wanting people to know about the sexual side effects. Speaker 3 (29:37): So with data, about how long they last, how firm they can get, we have, we're starting to get some data about women with the, the, the trial protocol. We can, they, people can then say, you know what? My doctor prescribed 300 milligrams of whatever antidepressant, but I noticed that around 150 milligrams my erection starts to soften or I can't. So people, I mean of course we, we, we recommend to everyone if they don't make changes, but with their medications before, let's discuss it with healthcare providers. But I know people are doing it because the healthcare providers don't know about them, don't know about these issues and don't prioritize. You know, they, as you said, you said earlier, the least priority for most doctors is someone's sexual performance. But if someone's taking Sri SRI antidepressant and lisinopril for their blood pressure and they can't get it up, but they can't, you're not making, you're not helping, you're not helping the depressions very much and you're not helping their their partner either. Speaker 1 (30:29): Right? Sex is a natural antidepressant. So , if you fix the sex, you probably wouldn't need the medication. So there's a woman listening now and she's really paying attention because she's thinking, wow, we don't have sex. We become like roommates. Either one of us could take it or leave it. Maybe she hasn't gotten out of hormonal poverty. So that's part of her issue. And if that's you, you definitely wanna listen up. 'cause , we are gonna run a special at her hormone club this winter if you wanna join us. But she knows her partner, she's observed that he's having some difficulties, whether obtaining an erection, maintaining having short or premature. How do you suggest that she approach this and talk to him? Because I've heard complaints from women before that when they've tried to bro this subject with their partners, that it has not been met with openness. So as a man, what would you say? How do we approach this with our partners? Speaker 3 (31:30): That's a great question. Hopefully you have some background information on the guy, because someone, it depends upon the person's age, but if, if it's, if it's a man over 45 or 50 it's the, the likelihood of that person having a physiological problem increases. So you really need to know what someone's blood pressure is, what their blood sugar, hemoglobin A1C is and the blood sugar, what their testosterone level is. There are, there are tests and then there are medications. I, you know, with, I've been impressed with the work that I've done over the last year, speaking to our patients, how many men could be helped just by, just in their medications and 'cause they're often taking multiple medications that that, that often a combination with alcohol are, are affecting their sexual performance. So you need to find out about the base, these, these baseline health factors. Speaker 3 (32:16): Another issue is these are all hard, such such just discussed, which is if a man can get it up with pornography and if a man is having erections at night when he's sleeping, he should be able to get up with his partner. And if he's not getting up with, with his partner, there's some issue in the relationship more, far more likely not some anxiety producing issue that's built up over the over built up over the years that need that, that needs to be addressed. Addressed. Mm-Hmm. between the two of them or, or addressed with, with, with the benefit of, of therapy. That's where ring comes in handy because a lot of those men get, they can get up and then they lo then they lose the erection and then they avoid sex because they, they, they feel I've got it up with her, but I've lost it. It hasn't worked out. That's where ring ring comes with confidence build up because a male erection things very differently than a male without erection. And, and Cochran will keep the blood in the penis even if people are having an argument of some erection. Speaker 1 (33:05): Is the way for her to approach it with him to maybe say, honey, I have some concerns I'd like to talk to you about. Can we set aside some time this weekend and then secure a time and then just couch it as a health concern and say, you know, I've noticed a, B, C when we are making love and I'm concerned because I heard Dr. Justin talking on Dr. Kirin show that this could have indications, meaning that you're at increased risk for heart disease, heart attack and early death, or any of the other things we've talked about. Or that the medications you're on might need to be adjusted. And I'm really wondering if we might be able to go to your doctor or if you could make an appointment with your doctor. Does that sound like a reasonable approach? Speaker 3 (33:52): Yeah, definitely. Speaker 1 (33:53): It's non-threatening. Uhhuh . Speaker 3 (33:55): Absolutely. And it does have to be approached as a partner issue. I mean, men often need the support of their partners just to comply with their medicines. Mm-Hmm. , I mean women are much more likely to comply with their, with it, with their medicines. Also, I think people need to think about what happens when they try to have sex. And his significance, if a man never gets an erection, doesn't have a a morning erection, this is where a device that can count the overnight that could be worn overnight comes in handy. I'll take it at both extremes. If a man, if a, if a man has a tech ring that can count, he wears overnight and he has nocturnal erections three or more, that man's sexual health is good enough to have to have sex. So that indicates that the issue is not medication related, disease related. Speaker 3 (34:36): The issue is probably is partnership related at the other extreme, the other extreme, and this happens, we, we, if a man has two or less nocturnal erections or those not, and those erections are, are either weak or not, they just don't occur that partner is getting risk fatigue or jaw fatigue for nothing. 'cause It ain't gonna happen. That man has a significant erectile problem that man needs to, to your point, that man needs to see a urologist and a cardiologist because he has a cardiovascular, cardio urological problem of, of profound significance and he needs help. Mm-Hmm. . So, and that's what, that's, that's where the data really comes in handy. 'cause The data ought to assess what's going on. So it could be, Hey honey, I noticed that, you know, the last six months have been really bad, you know, been difficult for you in, in bed and you start taking medication X just around the same time. Maybe the medication is the problem and maybe we can, with data, we can test whether that is the Speaker 1 (35:30): Issue. Right. And so the device that you developed actually they can wear overnight and it gives data in the privacy of their own home. Is that correct? Speaker 3 (35:39): That's correct. It can be one during sex as well too. Speaker 1 (35:41): Okay. And so how often do they have to use it to get enough data for how long a week takes a month? It Speaker 3 (35:48): Takes about up to about four uses for the sensors to calibrate the, to the individual's body. 'cause People's, you know, penises vary and, and how firm they get, they vary and, and you know, just variability. Variability in how long, how, how long people last. So I use it the way I use blood pressure. I take my blood pressure once a week. I take my, I measure my sexual health once a week. Oh, Speaker 1 (36:10): Okay. And then you kind of can follow it over time. Speaker 3 (36:13): Yeah, we have, we have men who use it every day and we have men who use it frequently. I mean it's been really valuable. There's a whole other issue here too, which can discuss prostate disease, which is, is another issue that prostate disease can, erectile dysfunction can mean a warning sign of prostate disease. So if a man Oh mm-Hmm Speaker 1 (36:27): Yeah. We even Speaker 3 (36:28): Talk that, I'm sorry, sorry I It's okay. So Right, if a man develops is starting to develop erectile dysfunction that man does need, you know, especially an older man, not, you know, old man over the age of 45, 50, that man needs, needs a a ur urology exam as well too. Speaker 1 (36:42): And men should be getting a rectal prostate exam annually. Correct. Speaker 3 (36:47): Annually. At least every two, every every two or three years. And if there's a family history, it should, it might need to be done more frequently. Right. I mean the PSA test remains controversial. I think it's a good idea. There might be some false positives, but, you know, why take a chance? Speaker 1 (37:00): Well what's the current age at which they should be getting that and is it annual? Speaker 3 (37:03): It's annual, I think it's 55. I I have to look. The indications change so frequently I have to look it up. Speaker 1 (37:09): Same for women . Yeah. So yeah, make sure that your partner is getting the PSA prostate specific antigen and a rectal prostate exam at whatever the current recommendations are. They should be getting that Women you need to be getting your rectal every year . They also need the rectal for screening for blood as well. Oh my gosh. This is such good information. And I think you've helped save some men, some women, and some marriages and couplings today because it's vital. Lemme Speaker 3 (37:41): Talk about that. 'cause We've had two men who had significantly declining nocturnal erections who went to their doctors and, and, and went to cardiology, actually got a cardiology workup and they, and they got catheterized and they got treated. They would've, they could've gone to have a heart, have a heart attack or something more, more disastrous. So the data, the data's fun, but the data's also really, really valuable. Yes. Speaker 1 (38:01): Very valuable when it comes to health. So ladies, don't ignore it. If your partner is suffering with any of these conditions, take steps to assess what's going on and get it addressed. Because it could be a sign of deeper health issues that could be life threatening, number one. But number two, a great sex life is really an important part of your, not only your physical vitality, but your emotional wellness and your connection to your partner and to the world at large. So thank you so much Dr. Justin for coming on and sharing this wonderful information. You've got some information to share with everyone about where they can find out more about you. We'll have the links in the show notes, they can find out more about your device and about how you are helping men. Speaker 3 (38:54): Yeah. If I could just add just one other thing, Dr. Dunston, which is that Sure. We're working, we're working on similar technology for women. So we've retested on, on, on, on 38 women and it's, it's our goal by early 25 2025 to deliver data for women that will also allow them to hack their sex, their sexual health in order to have a long, a longer lifetime of, of love making. Speaker 1 (39:13): Okay. You gotta give us a sneak peek in like one to two minutes . Sure. So we can know about that. Speaker 3 (39:19): Uhhuh we are measuring, it's all about blood flow in men and women. So just as, as the male device firmness is a marker of blood flow in a female device. I don't call it so much erection, but I call it arousal. We are measuring blood flow in the CLS overnight. Women have nocturnal chlor arousal and we are measuring that as a leading indicator of their cardiovascular and cardiometabolic health. And in one during sex, we are measuring their chlor arousal as well. So women can then measure the impact of diseases, diets, supplements, creams, all the, all, all things that that which claims are made for, for their sexual health and see what works best for them. Speaker 1 (39:54): That's amazing. Thank you for that. Do keep me updated on that . I will. So yeah, tell everyone where they can find out more. Speaker 3 (40:01): Sure. You can find us at my firm tech M-Y-F-I-R-M-T-E-C h.com and you can find me directly at elliot E-L-L-I-O t@myfirmtech.com. And thank you much so much, doc Dustin, for this opportunity. Speaker 1 (40:15): Yeah, thank you so much for coming on. I think this has been such valuable information. We will have that link in the show notes and you can go there to click and find out more and stay updated. I'm gonna stay updated on what's coming down the line for women and I'll certainly let you know. So thank you again for joining us for another episode of the Hormone Prescription. I know you are inspired to create a better sex life for yourself and your partner for all its wellness and vitality benefits. I look forward to hearing from you on social media more about this. Have a great week and until next week, peace, love, and hormones y'all. Speaker 2 (40:55): Thank you so much for listening. I know that incredible vitality occurs for women over 40 when we learn to speak hormones and balance these vital regulators to create the health and the life that we deserve. If you're enjoying this podcast, I'd love it if you'd give me a review and subscribe. It really does help this podcast out so much. You can visit the hormone prescription.com where we have some free gifts for you and you can sign up to have a hormone evaluation with me on the podcast to gain clarity into your personal situation. Until next time, remember, take small steps each day to balance your hormones and watch the wonderful changes in your health that begin to unfold for you. Talk to you soon.   ► Learn more about Dr. Justin's works on erectile fitness - CLICK HERE.   ► Feeling tired? Can't seem to lose weight, no matter how hard you try? It might be time to check your hormones. Most people don't even know that their hormones could be the culprit behind their problems. But at Her Hormone Club, we specialize in hormone testing and treatment. We can help you figure out what's going on with your hormones and get you back on track. We offer advanced hormone testing and treatment from Board Certified Practitioners, so you can feel confident that you're getting the best possible care. Plus, our convenient online consultation process makes it easy to get started. Try Her Hormone Club for 30 days and see how it can help you feel better than before. CLICK HERE.   ► Do you feel exhausted, moody, and unable to do the things that used to bring you joy? It could be because of hormonal poverty! You can take our quiz now to find out if your hormone levels are at optimum level or not. Take this quiz and get ready to reclaim your life; say goodbye to fatigue and lack of energy for good. We want every woman to live her best life — free from any signs or symptoms of hormonal poverty, so they can relish their everyday moments with confidence and joy. Imagine having a strong immune system, vibrant skin, improved sleep quality… these are all possible when hormones are balanced! CLICK HERE now and take the #WWPHD Quiz to discover if you're in hormonal poverty — it only takes 2 minutes! Let's get started on optimizing your hormone health today.

For non-Spotify listeners, here is the commentary portion of this week's musical episode without any of the songs included. Here's the playlist: 100 in a 55 by Pop Evil Hero by Chad Kroeger feat. Josey Scott Smokin' & Ridin' by Ja Rule Downfall by Matchbox 20 So Right by Dave Matthews Band Lessons in Love, Hope, and Faith - Part 1 The Road by Sister Hazel The Artist in the Ambulance by Thrice Lose Yourself by Eminem Race Against Time II by Ja Rule On the Grind by Nelly feat. King Jacob What I Learned Out On the Road by Kid Rock Tonight by Charlie Robison Honorable mentions: Last Kiss by Pearl Jam How to Save a Life by The Fray Superman (It's Not Easy) by Five for Fighting The Change by Garth Brooks Think of Me by Tracy Lawrence Wherever You Will Go by The Calling Hold My Hand by Hootie & The Blowfish Ride Wit Me by Nelly Utha Side by Nelly Drivin' My Life Away by Eddie Rabbit Can't Believe by Sister Hazel Let the Fire Burn by Sister Hazel Stairway to Heaven by Led Zepplin Another One Bites the Dust by Queen Stayin' Alive by the Bee Gees Don't Fear the Reaper by Blue Oyster Cult Rescue by Lauren Daigle ⁠Jody's YouTube Channel⁠ ⁠Support the show⁠ ⁠Check out our (non-Spotify) website⁠ What's on your mixtape? Email any time: thekppod@gmail.com

We're back to wrap up our conversation which might be a bit counterintuitive. We're going to question the real impact of common financial habits. Are the strategies you consider beneficial actually working in your favor? We explore the pros and cons of practices like paying off debt early and keeping up with financial news. Join us for a practical discussion, as we uncover the unexpected effects of everyday money decisions. Are your good money habits holding you back?   Important Links: Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381   ----more---- Transcript:  Marc Killian  00:00 Part Two of our prior conversation on our good money habits holding you back, we're going to continue to have the conversation about the real impact of common financial habits. And are those strategies that you consider beneficial actually working in your favor? So join us here on playing with the tax man with Tony Morrow.   Announcer 2  00:17 Look up in the sky. It's a bird. It's a plane. No, it's the tax man. He may not be a superhero. But Tony Morrow has saved many retirement plans with his extreme knowledge of tax planning strategies. It's time for a plan with the tax man.   Marc Killian  00:35 Welcome back into part two of our conversation on those good money habits. are they holding you back? Tony and I back again to talk investing finance and retirement of course, Tony is the CPA CFP a and in the big kahuna over there at tax Doctor Inc. And if you guys have questions, need some help get onto the calendar and have a conversation with him at your planning. proz.com He and his team are here to help you get to and through retirement at your planning proz.com What's going on my friend? How are you?   Tony Mauro  01:03 I am good in tax season is upon us now. So it's gonna be a little busier.   Marc Killian  01:08 I was gonna say I feel like I feel like that's gonna be the theme. I hear from you for the next couple of weeks. When we talk as tax season. It's tax season. Oh, yeah, it's tax season.   Tony Mauro  01:18 Now, it's, you know, the IRS, right, it has kind of delayed the start of the tax season, they always do this. And they kind of cram it into, sometimes less and less time. So it's always that that crunch, you know, and we don't well, we don't work ourselves to death, like we used to. And you know, so we have some cut offs there. And so it's not as bad, you know, as long and stuff as it used to be. But nevertheless, it's busy.   Marc Killian  01:43 Exactly, exactly. Well, I won't keep you long we'll finish our conversation. That way you can get back in and work on these things we got to do. But we started off with our first five right on some good money habits, are they holding us back. So we're gonna continue and of course, you don't have to listen to the prior podcast folks to check this one out, or enjoy or pick up some nuggets of information from this one. But it certainly isn't a bad idea. So make sure you go by and check that out. You can find it at your planning proz.com or subscribe to us on Apple, Google, Apple, YouTube or Spotify. Just type in playing with the tax man in the search box. Alright, so let's go to number six here have our total 10. Tony paying off debt early. Hey, you know, good habit, right? Reduces long term interest payments can provide a nice mental boost, especially when you pay something off, you're like, oh, yeah, you feel really good about that. But Why might it be bad to pay off debt early? This can be interesting.   Tony Mauro  02:33 I think, you know, I definitely advocate paying off high interest debt, of course, and get rid of all of that. But sometimes, especially in the mortgage area, you know, some of us that have had a mortgage over the last, what, 710 years where you've got low interest rates, if you pay it off early, you know, you could be, you know, basically using that money. In other words, you you take cash flow out of your out of your monthly budget to pay that off. And you could be using that to get higher returns elsewhere. And still, the net is quite a bit of a plus for you. So if you've got a low interest loan, you got to take a look at it work with your advisor to see if this is the best thing for you. I do advocate staying out of debt and being out of debt. But every once in a while, it's not that bad of a deal, especially on like, say on home mortgages.   Marc Killian  03:22 Right? Yeah, you know, so you got to kind of take a look at how you're dealing it and really kind of the debt thing will kind of play into that lazy money conversation, maybe right, some of that extra money sitting in savings right now or something like that. Right? So because, you know, if you're, you're thinking, Okay, I'm getting, you know, I can get 4% on the CD, because the numbers have been better, because we talked a little bit about the fact that the feds are probably going to cut rates this year in 2024. But you know, you're paying off your house more, if you're lucky enough to have like a 3% mortgage, right? Well, yeah, you're making 1%. But could that be better use someplace else? Right? So let's, let's say you're gonna drop 50 grand on your mortgage, and you know, and you still weren't paying it off, you were just gonna get it knocked down a good chunk or something like that. Could that 50 grand be making you more money someplace else? safely, of course, I get that we want to, you know, find a vehicle that, you know, kind of works well for our risk tolerance. But again, that's why maybe paying off too much debt early. Bad debt, probably certainly a good idea to get rid of quickly, right? Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay, cool. Make sure I wanted to make sure I was following you there. Number seven, staying informed by watching and reading financial news or listening to podcasts. Right. So another way to do it. Good side, right. Financial education is important. Not a bad idea to be up on various different things. That's why we try to that's why I always say, you know,   Tony Mauro  04:43 hopefully you picked up a useful nugget or two of information from our show. But be careful, right, because there's an awful lot of talking heads ton of it, especially I mean, you got podcasts like we're doing of course, stuff you view the internet everything everybody's got an opinion right in it. It tends to be if you tend to get too far into it, maybe information overload, I think could be bad, I think you could end up making some rash decisions, I would say, if there's nothing wrong with listening and gathering as much info as you can, I would definitely say, to, you know, run it by your advisor, you know, because they are going to be the ones that can, you know, lend some credibility to some of that stuff you hear, and whether it fits into you know, what you're trying to do. So just be careful. And the other thing is, unless you really enjoy getting information overload, eminent just just for your own time sake, you know, go do something else. It's fun, unless, again, unless you really enjoy it, it's yeah, it's   Marc Killian  05:41 so funny how our society is so geared that we have all this tech, we have so many things that, you know, making our life, you know, supposedly easier, but they're really time socks. And the next thing, you know, you go, why the hell the day go, you know, right. And it's just, it's amazing. Like, again, the wife and I were on this diet, you know, it's still January, and we're still hanging in there. And, and it's cooking healthy takes so much time, you know, yes. And so it's no wonder that our society is a little heavier, because it's easy to run to Taco Bell, and so on and so forth. Right. And I think the same thing financially, sometimes, sometimes it's easy to think, Okay, well, I'll just, you know, I'll just Google something real quick. And then I'll just, you know,   06:25 the first two or three things is the what, probably what I'll go with, but it might not be the right thing for you, right? Just kind of like that taco. It tastes good, but it might not be the right thing. That's right. You know, speaking of that healthy eating not only takes a long time, it's generally more expensive. Oh, Wally, way more expensive, way more expensive. Yeah. And I'm actually tonight, I'm in charge of going home, and I gotta go get the ingredients. So you   Marc Killian  06:50 got to go out and get the ingredients. Hmm. I   Tony Mauro  06:53 And but it is, it is painful, you know, to go out and do that. And you. You cook it in now? Yeah, it's gone in about 1520 minutes. Yeah. Well,   Marc Killian  07:03 I don't want to go down that avenue, because that's what the wife's complain about Thanksgiving. I'm like, Yeah, but it's so good. She's like, I spent all day on this. And I was like, yeah, man, it's good. I tell you what, the healthy thing right, I know, we're off on a tangent. But that's the point of the podcast is just talking about life in general as well. And how it relates to finance but thinking about like even just wastefulness. So help this healthy eating out to your point, it's expensive. And so the other day, she bought one of these vegetable things, as already, it's all kind of pre cut stuff already. It's already kind of sealed up in the plastic and blah, blah, blah, right? It's about you know, a smorgasbord of vegetables already kind of pre done for you to make your was a call that meat crop or whatever the whenever you're making your stuff for food. And as soon as she opened it, she pulled the lid off of it. And the smell hit us like a ton of bricks. This was brand new, and the vegetables were were bad. They didn't look bad, but it wreaked. Right. And so it was like, well, that's total money gone down, right down the drain, you know, and so and so I was joking with the wife has said, you know, what, never, you know, gets mushy and smells really terrible and goes bad like that. And she's like, What, like doughnuts.   Tony Mauro  08:10 That's like so much preservatives. And   Marc Killian  08:13 she's like, You suck. And I said, I know. I know. But you know, it is it's expensive. So you definitely you got to be on your toes when you're trying to do you know, financial stuff, and healthy eating right? Learn a lot of stuff out there. Alright, so that was informative news. Let's go to number eight. global diversification. That sounds good. Tony spreads out the risk, right? You can capture growth and different economies. Give me some negatives to think about here? Well,   Tony Mauro  08:37 I think the one thing with the negatives is while it you know, depending on what you're doing, and which countries you're investing in, it definitely could add to the complexity, because a lot of these different countries have different laws, different regulations for their securities and whatnot. And the other thing is, is it does increase your risk, because obviously, there's a lot of volatility, generally, when, when a certain country is doing well, other countries are not, and vice versa. And it would behoove you definitely to get with your advisor, maybe even choose a fund versus individual securities, if you're going, you know, globally, because it's impossible for us sitting here, wherever we are, to get any type of what I would call, you know, in depth research and even if you have it, are you gonna be able to understand it, it's different accounting rules, different laws, everything else. So be very, very careful there and make sure that you get the diversification you need. I'm not opposed to global diversification. I think it needs to be done wisely. Okay. All right.   Marc Killian  09:37 Yeah. So cuz you're definitely exposed to more volatility. So Right. So if you're not comfortable with volatility, got to take that into consideration. All right. Number nine, that emergency fund constantly building it? So you know, we've talked about this before, but like you got 100 grand sitting in the savings account? What kind of emergency Do you have, that's going to cost $100,000? You know, did you get your you know, did you get your dog kidnapped, gotta pay Have 100 grand to get it back, right? So it's a great safety net to have. But just be careful, right? Because obviously, the downside of this is that your your basically, your savings account, even with the higher interest rates, were in telling your savings accounts not paying you four or 5%. So you're losing money safely.   Tony Mauro  10:15 You're losing money safely. And you certainly can continue the good habit, but maybe just reroute that money to something that could earn you a little bit more put it to work for you. Right. Yeah, be a put it to work better for you. You know, it's great to build up a really good emergency fund. But after that's done, like you say, there's no sense of just keep putting money into that you got to you got to keep it working better for you.   Marc Killian  10:37 Yeah. And, and if you're a retired person, obviously, the emergency fund conversation is completely different than if you're still working, right? Yes, yeah. And it's also that comfort, that comfort Tommy level of like, what's the amount in the savings account, a savings account that makes you both feel good to sleep at night, find that number kind of something fair for eat for both of you. Because it can be one something where one party in the marriage wants, you know, a big number and the other party is fine with less? And you know, so you want both to be comfortable, but you got to again, not have it, you know, being ineffective, too. Right? Okay. All right. Number 10 final one here, patients making financial decisions and building a plan. Now, again, this is kind of like our fifth one on the prior segment. In some cases, delaying your decisions, to get more information or to you know, check things out, can lead to better outcomes, right, it could lead to making impulsive decisions, I bought something over the holiday Christmas break, I shouldn't have. Right, and get some more information. But when, when that patients turns to do nothingness, which humans are really, really good at procrastination,   Tony Mauro  11:41 it can certainly harm you, it can harm you, because you can't get off the sidelines. And sometimes you tend to overthink slash over analyze, like say there's nothing wrong, being patient, getting all the facts, working with your advisor. But at some point, you're going to, you know, make your goals, you're going to have to make some decisions, and you're going so, and hopefully the advisors, you know, and that's what part of what you're paying them for is you know, to keep you on track. Get you going keep you going. Yeah, because we are as humans tend to not want to change.   Marc Killian  12:10 We're really, really good at procrastination, aren't we? Yeah. You know, and not like, I know that some people are really, you know, the opposite. That's great. But I think a good portion of us are pretty darn good at procrastination, and it may be in different arenas, right? Some people are really on the ball about this, but procrastinate the heck out of that right, you know, so on and so forth. So it's a treat, we all kind of carry around so just be careful. So that's our podcasts were good habits can sometimes maybe hold us back. Hopefully you found that informative. And of course, as always, if you got questions need help. Before you take any action, always check with a qualified professional like Tony as I mentioned earlier, he's a CPA, a CFP and an EA He's got the whole alphabet soup, right there on his business cards. If you need some help, reach out to him at your planning proz.com That is your planning proz.com And subscribe to play with the tax ban on Apple, Spotify and YouTube. Tony, my friend. Thanks for hanging out and good luck with dinner tonight. All right, thank   Tony Mauro  13:07 you. We'll see you next time. Yeah, we'll   Marc Killian  13:08 catch you next time. It'll be into February here on plan with the tax man with Tony Morris.   Walter Storholt  13:18 Securities offered through a van tax investment services SM Member FINRA SIPC, investment advisory services offered through a van tax advisory services insurance services offered through an event tax affiliated Insurance Agency investment strategies discussed in this episode may not be suitable for all investors. Please consult with a financial professional

In today's episode of Welcome to Cloudlandia, we take you on a journey through history and our complex relationship with time and its perception. We discuss hidden economic forces that shaped pivotal history and debate if we live in the "best or worst of times." I share my experience with breaking free from television, only to be pulled back by sporting thrills and gripping shows, a reminder of how addictive media can be. As we wrap up our discussion, we reflect on exciting developments on the horizon. We celebrate entrepreneurs who have adapted their businesses to thrive online.   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Dean talks about time perception and the fascination with having foreknowledge of events, particularly in the context of financial markets and the desire to possess tomorrow's news today. We explore the human ability to adapt to a wide range of temperatures, humorously comparing our ancestors' robust survival skills to modern reactions to climate change. Dean reflects on the concept of whether we are living in the best or worst of times, citing both the remarkable conveniences of modern life and the psychological challenges posed by the battle for our attention. Personal anecdotes include Dean's success in abstaining from watching television for over five years, despite being tempted by his loyalty to sports teams and the immersive experience of a Netflix binge. There's a discussion about the skepticism surrounding medical advancements and the difficulty in discerning credible health information in an era of conflicting opinions. We examine the impact of technology on spontaneity and control in our lives, touching on smart devices and drawing a parallel to the controlling nature of HAL 9000 from "2001: A Space Odyssey". Dan shares insights on entrepreneurship, reflecting on the adaptability required to thrive in the digital age, such as the growth of his coaching program and the shift from in-person workshops to online formats. We delve into the process of book production, noting the importance of releasing work to make room for new ideas and discussing technological advancements that have expedited the process. Dean talks about integrating AI chat into books to allow readers to interact with content and contemplates whether AI could help guide readers through material by asking questions. Coordination for an upcoming trip to Chicago is mentioned, where Albie will be joining Dean and Dan, indicating excitement for the visit and the promise of future stimulating discussions. Links: WelcomeToCloudlandia.com StrategicCoach.com DeanJackson.com ListingAgentLifestyle.com TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dean: Mr Sullivan. Dan: I'm almost tapping in here. Dean: Almost. That's exactly right as close as you can get without going over. We're you know we're going to be 12 hours away from it here, it's all very exciting. Dan: Yeah, yeah, we were talking to Kim Daniel. He now calls himself. Daniel White and he phoned us from birth Australia from the future from the future from the future. So they're already. They're already into New Year's yeah, that's so funny. What a weird world, what a world for a world, you know. Dean: I saw an infographic that there's an island. There's two islands up where Russia and Alaska joined. They're separated by three miles. You can see the other island. I like it once called tomorrow Island or something. What the American side is. You know 24 hours difference because it's right after the straddle the line divides them is the international date line. So they're three miles away, and yet they're 24 hours apart. Yeah that's really interesting. Dan: You know people often have these quizzes. You know it's either you're reading the quizzes or you're being asked the quiz. Yeah, and it's. Dan: if you had one superpower, what would it be? Have you ever had anything like that, so many? I have you know I think about or you were you were a witness to this question being asked. And mine is that I would like to have tomorrow morning's Wall Street Journal yesterday. Yeah, exactly Exactly. How great would that be, that could be. Dean: The thing is literally what you should. That could be a loophole, Dan. Maybe we should go to these islands and subscribe to the Wall Street Journal on tomorrow Island. Oh man. Dan: Now take a bit of work. I mean, you still have to learn what to look for, and you know you'd have to have the means by which you could, and but that just reminds me. I think everybody would like to have that superpower. Dean: They would like to have advanced understanding of the future Well you know what's so funny is one of the things that I wanted to talk about today, because it's, you know, explore. This idea is because I ranked it up there as one of the top concepts of the year for me, and that is guessing and betting, and essentially, what you're saying is it's absolutely true. The reason that would be so valuable is that it would bring certainty. If you look tomorrow and see what the closing stock price of a any stock was today. If you knew that in advance, that it starts out at X and it's going to be X plus. Y at the end of the day, you're betting with certainty, and that's a pretty interesting. That's what I really thought about the that concept, and I'd love to hear a little more, because well, I think it's, I think it's been. Dan: It's a thought that's been in the human brain since the first humans. Dean: Yeah, I agree, you think that not knowing, I wonder where. I wonder how would that have manifested itself then in the beginning? Knowing where, the, I guess what would it be? Knowing where, the where the food is going to be, or something. Dan: Well, I think, you know, I think probably it manifested itself in the first days of people just noticing the weather, you know, like wherever they were, that you know, that. I mean I think they probably, if you did Colby's back then, like a Colby profile that that the earliest humans really varied in terms of you know what they were skillful at and what they focused on Okay. And. But my sense is that there were some people who were more conceptual, who could notice patterns better than others. And they could make sort of predictions which you know as it regard weatherers. That regarded, the wildlife around them or the you know. The you know availability of food. They would immediately go to the top of authority and in whatever group they were, because they just had a sense of what was going on and a better sense of tomorrow than anybody else did. Dean: Yeah, that's really yeah must have freaked, I mean, imagine, not knowing with. I guess the first certainty would be well, even though the sun went away, it's going to come back up again, Yep, and then getting that certainty that, okay, there it is. And wait a minute, it's colder this time of year than what's all this white stuff. I subscribe to the Gary Halbert philosophy. He had a saying that God gave us a sign by planting palm trees in all the places that were suitable for human habitation. So if you wake up and you don't see any palm trees, keep bending south. That's his philosophy. If you see palm trees. Dean: You know you're in the right place. Yeah. Dan: Yeah, and then you know you, it's very interesting. Everybody worries about global warming or they are making large amounts of money warning about global warming. I think that's more of a ladder than it is that they're actually worried. I think they've discovered a new way to make money? Yeah, but but if you think of the variations in temperature that humans can deal with, okay. So, for example, in North Africa, in the Sahara, people go about their business when it's 120 degrees up, 120 or plus, you know, in the Sahara. And at the same time there I've been in Alberta in Canada, when it was 44 below and everybody went about their business. Speaker 3 Yeah, so that's a difference, that's a difference. Dan: Fahrenheit wise, that's a difference of 164 degrees Okay. And humans at one end, people are going about their business. That's the other. They're going about their business and they're freaking out about a one degree change, one or two degree change. And I said I mean, who of us doesn't go through that, even you know, in idyllic spots like where you live? Yeah, there's still a variation of 20 to 25, maybe 30 degrees during here, right, Right. Dean: Yeah, no, it's been. It's been a little cold here Like I. Literally, I almost had to wear socks with my shorts today, dan, it's that's how chilly it was, wow, yeah. Yeah. Dean: And I have a hoodie on Wow. Just to stay one because I'm committed. I'm still sitting out in the courtyard have you done trauma? Dan: Have you done trauma therapy on this? Dean: No, you know, the funny thing about I mean, what they call the whole climate change is, you know, if we look back, it's a fact, scientifically accepted, that we were in an ice age at one point and somehow, without the aid of fossil fuels and combustible engines, the earth warmed itself out of an ice age. And now we're having a nervous breakdown that we're gonna, because of combustible engines, throw the whole thing off into. Dan: I don't know, it's just See as an entrepreneur talking to an entrepreneur. That proves to me that there's money to be made in nervous breakdowns. Dean: Give people nervous breakdowns. That's the thing, yeah, yeah. Dan: You know, it's like the Jerry McGuire movie. Remember Jerry McGuire movie. Dean: I do. That's a great movie. Where's the? Dan: money. Dean: Yeah. Dan: Show me the money. Show me the money, show me the money. And I think that when you're trying to analyze any event on the planet which is being interpreted in economic, political well, not economic but political, philosophical terms, I say I think your first question has to be okay, who's making the money? here yeah right. Dean: That's absolutely true, absolutely true, and it's gonna be. Yeah, I think that you know I was sharing a couple of weeks ago the idea of my contemplation on whether this is the best of times or the worst of times. Dan: And the answer is yeah. Dean: That's exactly right. But what I realized is that there's, in terms of every physical measurement, every convenience, access to information, democratization of virtually everything. It's the very best of times. There's never been a better time than now, and on the worst, the best things that I could come up with are the most, you know, the things that would qualify as making it the worst of times, where all the battle for our minds and it's that creating those there's a lot to fixate on. You know that really has nothing to do with us in. You know, in reality, like when it's all mental, the inner game is really the battle, for Dean Landia is strong, you know. Dan: Yeah, I think it's true, and just to bring you know the latest update, I'm now in my Almost six, five and a half years of not watching television. Dean: I know I thought like amazing. Dan: Yeah, and, but this was sort of the test for me this fall, because I'm from Cleveland originally and. I have the normal sports loyalties. Like I rude right, you know, I root for the teams I rooted for when I was eight years old and the Cleveland Browns are having a really quite an extraordinary season as the result of a 38 year old quarterback. Yeah, I've heard his name Joe Flack, oh, oh. Who was sitting on a. Who is sitting on a couch Watching television or lying on a couch? Six weeks ago, when Cleveland went to their third quarterback of the year, went down and they brought him in. And he's been easily the best quarterback in the league over the last four or five years. Yeah and Just, I mean he's. Here's the Hollywood ending that they go to the Super Bowl and this guy comes off the coach and wins the Super Bowl. That's a great. Dean: Yeah, it's the Kurt Warner story right. Dan: Oh yeah yeah, this is even more because Kurt Warner was about 31 or 32, yeah, when it happened, but this guy's 38. He's he played 16 years and nobody wanted in this year. So it's just got all the makings of a great just a terrific Hollywood script you know, and. But ask me how much? What? How many minutes of Watching the Cleveland Browns this fall have I done? Dean: well, you told me your secret Was that you watch the YouTube summary of the game. Dan: Well, first of all, I watch whether they won or lost right, okay, perfect yes. If they lost, I don't watch the summary if they win. I watched the video. And what I've discovered I? Dan: what I've discovered is that no football game has more than 10 minutes of actual highlights. Speaker 3 Right. Dan: Yeah, and then? The one I like the best is where they just show your team's highlights when they want, which is about five minutes. Yeah right right, right. Dan: So rabbit pan. First game was 97 Jim Brown, olive fame and perhaps the greatest running back of all time. It was his rookie season and he broke the one game rushing record Day for touchdowns 200, 200 plus some yards. That was my first and I was addicted. It was like drugs, right. You know, you don't you give the first sample away free, and then the drugs do the selling for the rest of my life. Yeah and so anyway. But, tempted as I may be, this fall I did not watch a minute of television. Dean: Wow, that's great, and you know I'm watching the. Dan: I'm not watching the highlights TV, as a matter of fact, I'm looking at the TV. It's across the room for me. And. Dan: I don't even know where, I don't even know how you turn it on, oh, boy. Fantastic. It's like the Dark Ages. I've lost abilities that the Romans said. You know the whole. Dean: You know, on the other side of that spectrum is Yesterday. I had two amazing things happen. So yesterday I Got up and I got coffee, and sometimes what I'll do is I, like Jerry Seinfeld had a series called comedians in cars getting coffee and it's just a fun. You know they're 10 minute episodes, 10 12 minutes kind of thing. I think I'm someone in, so I sometimes I'm having like coffee, I'll sit there and I'll watch a comedians in cars getting coffee, and so I turned on Netflix to do that. And Netflix has this thing of pushing to your home screen, you know, through your algorithm or whatever, the thing that would be the most interesting to you, probably. And there was a series called money heist, which was a big thing. You know, in 2020, when we were all in Lockdown based, this money heist series came on and everybody got, you know, fully addicted to it. It was really well done. It was just from Spain and it was Dubbed with English voices, but really well done. So, in any event, the third installment of this money heist series was front and center on my Netflix home screen yesterday and I Ended up no, this was Friday, sorry, I ended up watching the whole series on that Friday and the funniest thing, dan, is that I, for the entire day, thought it was Saturday and I didn't realize until the end of the day that I got an extra day. Do you have those things where in the holidays the days just kind of blend all together? Because I haven't had. Or anything you know and the way you do that, in the way you do. Dan: We each, we all have our own approaches, you know, right on that was so. Dean: That was the funniest thing. I watched the entire series of Fantastic and, but it felt like I just borrowed from my leap year day. Dan: Something got that day. Now I'm thinking got. Dean: I said something got heisted. That's exactly right. Dan: That is exactly right. Well, you know, everybody makes a big deal about this today, but I don't think it was any different. Everybody wants to make Case that the world and humanity has never experienced before, of what we're experiencing to work, and I resist that thought. And I say well, first of all, we don't know, do we? I mean we? I mean we don't know what was going on in the world when we were five or six years old, you know, I mean yeah. I mean, we were just struggling together handle on walking and running and Everything else. But people make all these things like Something like this has never happened before in human history and I yeah. I said first of all, vast majority of people haven't got a clue what happened 10 years ago so you know. I mean and you know some of some people it's last week and. Anyway, and I said actually probably, we all want to believe that our own age is something special. And I said okay, well, that's something to remember that regardless of what age you're in, people want to believe that it's sort of special. Okay, and I get that, but my sense is it's always been special. One it's always been special, or two it's never been special. And but if you go back, and If you go back and read the thinking of people, where we actually have the documents Greek 2500 years ago, totally understandable, translated and Very thoughtful and you could learn a lot from these guys. Okay so so are there people smarter today than our Air stock? I don't know, because I'm not sure how you would compare a smartness over in 2500 years. Dean: Well, I mean, I think you can point to certain things. I mean you can point to Even just in. Let's just take medicine. You've just returned from your second trip to Buenos Aires to get stem, stem cells for generating cartilage in your knees Right and others and others. Dan: So it's turning into. It's turning into repair and also prevention. So they're now doing proactive stuff for you know your brain and your vascular system and everything. Dean: Oh, I remember. Yeah, so you know. I remember walking in Regents Park in London with Jamie Smart. We were walking around and he was telling me, you know he had written his new book at the time Clarity was out and he was saying how, in the 18, people thought that bad smells cause disease and so people would walk around with posies and fragrant things to ward off disease. And turns out that it was germs that caused this disease. And so when you think about, you know, 2,500 years ago, advancements in medicine, you know we were, I mean, leaching and you know bloodletting and all of these sort of you know superstitious things I think were happening and they were thinking that some diseases were demonic possession. You know that's really what was going on, that bring people had seizure, that they were possessed by the devil or by demons. And so now you fast forward to today and we have DNA that with certainty can point to what your genetic predispositions are, and stem cell, you know, can go in and repair or modify those things. I don't know. Dean: I mean, I think that we are, I think, life expectancy. So I think in many ways we're constantly ratcheting forward society, right, and I think, with now access to you know it used to be. If you just take even 50 years ago, you know it used to be that all of the research and development and advancements in medicine were all done in silos, where you know proximity to those people or you know had to be around. And now we're at a point where every advancement that's documented and available is, you know, instantly analyzable by artificial intelligence and machine learning. So we have access to not just our own thinking but the analysis and you know computation skills or whatever, to everything to the hive mind. You know. I think that's really what we've evolved to. Is that you know it's not individual thinkers who you had to. 2,500 years ago you had to be in at the Agora to listen to Aristotle talk, to get the wisdom of Aristotle, or somebody had a scroll that had written down something that he said. You know Now it's like everything I don't know. It's such amazing things that we have access to everything that's ever been said and can project forward in the style of what Aristotle would say today about certain situations. Like you told me, your story of having something interpreted and written as Shakespeare would write it in the Iambic pandemic right, and so I don't I mean, it's like in certain things any argument that today is not a pinnacle of achievement or Well yeah, I think we I've been, you know, pondering over the years what constitutes smart, because it's very clear to me that you can find examples of people thousands of years ago. Yeah. Dan: If the person were in the room and you could understand the language they were speaking they would strike you as being very smart. Speaker 3 Yes. Dan: Okay, and the couple of weeks ago in Congress we had three presidents of prestigious universities who, over a period of about 15 minutes, indicated that they're not very smart Harvard, mit and Penn, okay. And they were asked a fairly simple question Would anything happening on your campus in advocating genocide to Jews, with that constitutive violation of code of conduct? And they couldn't answer the question. Somebody 2,500 years ago could answer the question. So my sense is it's kind of like you're as smart as who you hang out with. Yeah. Dan: And you're as smart as your ability to deal with the your own unknown factors, like we all have unknown factors, and so my sense is that intelligence and smartness has to do with your creative response, or your either creative or reactive response to kind of the conditions that you're living in. You know. You know, and, for example, it's pretty well known now that the people of the South Pacific pledged all over just understanding the color of waves. They could see that there were different variations in the color of the water sea water and they could make predictions based on that. I doubt if there's any human beings today who can do that. Yeah, but I wonder yeah, I mean that's so the thing that I'm saying, I think that human intelligence is kind of a constant and you know, people in the earliest humans were kind of smart in relationship to their circumstances and we probably couldn't survive for a day what they could survive for a year, you know, because we didn't have their knowledge and experience. So I think we have access to great medical breakthroughs right now, but I haven't met a regular doctor yet that knows any of those breakers. Dean: Right? Well, because there's a whole. Dan: I just use my general. I just use my general practitioners for drugs drug dealers. Dean: Yeah. Dan: Good drug dealers. Dean: Yeah, but there's a whole. You know there's a whole, especially in these medical things. There's a lot of. That's one of these nervous breakdown things that there's a whole lot of. For every advancement or every miracle cure or protocol, there's someone, there's a vocal and official sounding opposition to it. Yep. Dean: It's really. This is where it's really difficult. Dan: You can count on that. Is to discern what the yeah, because somebody's pension is at stake, somebody's reputation is at stake, somebody's livelihood is at stake because of something new, because of something new Because they stopped growing 20 years ago and they've been on autopilot and suddenly they've been interrupted. Something new what we've? Dean: got to stop. Is you look at something as devices, as vaccines? That's been the. You know the number one kind of contention in the last four years is the whole. You know the on both sides. You know it's either is it a miracle or is it killing you Is. You know and you don't know the normal answer. Dan: The answer is yes, and the answer is yes. Dean: Yeah, I mean it's so funny. But true, right Like so. Dan: I mean the whole thing, that there was some wisdom, that they had before COVID, which they disregarded. One is that what you have to do is go for the 65-year-olds and older and protect them. Yeah. Dan: Protect the humans that are over 65. That's because there's a likelihood they've got a lot of other conditions that this will put them over the edge. This new thing will put them over the edge. Okay, no they want to start at six months old, they want to start at a year old, you know. Yeah. Dan: I mean, the masks were bigger than the child's head, you know Right, and everything like that. It had nothing to do with medicine. It had nothing to do. It had a lot to do with control. Yes, yes, and I don't know if we've learned anything about vaccines over the last four years, but a large portion of the public has learned not to trust healthcare experts. Public Right, especially public healthcare, that's what we've learned. Yeah, I mean, that's what we've learned Exactly. Dan: Yeah, like, don't go to the water hole at sunrise or sunset, right? Yeah, I mean, that's the truth. Dean: Right. Dan: I mean creditors show up for easy eating. Yes, you know. So my sense is a lot has been learned over the last four years, but I don't think it had anything to do with vaccines. Dean: Yeah, yeah, I agree, and that's, I think, from the you know, for the general public, for people you know observing this, it really creates the sense of you know, nervous, breakdown level things, of you know that there it feels like you're there's no right answer, that it's wrong. You know that you're either COVID's going to get you or the vaccine's going to get you and you can't make the right decision. People are not there's no uncertainty in the decision. Dan: Are your Tesla is going to explode. Right, exactly, or they're going to you know, and there's the thing, right. Dean: That's all part of it. That's what your Tesla is going to be shut down. You know that the government's going to control. Yeah, I mean, there's so much, yeah, I love this. Dan: You know, I mean I'm not. Babs loves her Tesla and she has the same model you do, and she's had it for six years and she loves it and I love Babs, so it works. But I really liked my Beamer. I really liked the Beamer we had before. Dean: You know what? Dan: It didn't get any smarter in the garage overnight. And when the car goes into the garage when the car goes into the garage before dark and we close the door. I don't want a smarter car. When I pick up the phone, oh my goodness. Dean: You know, what's so funny is I think it's so presumptuous, so fun. I wake up, I get in the car and it tells me it's nine minutes to Haven Bakery, haven Cafe. It's like telling me that. Or at Honeycomb Cafe, it's telling me nine minutes, traffic is okay. It's presuming where I'm going. Dan: Well, why can't you just take a chance? I wonder how the traffic is going to be this morning. To see that there's a pleasure has been taken away from me. Yeah yeah. Dean: It's so funny, right? I don't have any, you've got certainty and I just push the button and let it drive me there. So that's the greatest thing you know. It's so funny. Dan: Yeah it's like you know it's 2001,. Stanley Kubrick's movie. What was the astronauts name? I forget, but that Hal was talking to us. What do you think you're doing? Was it Doug? Or I'm trying to think he's. Hal Dave. Dan: Yeah, hal was the computer you know yeah. Which is just IBM. You know, if you take IBM backwards, you come up with Hal, but anyway, and it's saying what do you think you're doing, dave? You know, like that. Dan: It's nine minutes to the coffee show, Dave. Dean: Right. Why are you turning left? Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, why are you? Dan: even wondering Goodness, that is funny though that your car. Dean: You wake up and your car is smarter it was. Oh man. Dan: Oh, you said it at the beginning. You said it was the beginning. Dean, that's all a fight and competition for your brain, that's what it is. Dean: It's the absolute truth you know, and I think that you, you know, I think you've cut off the good portion of that access to your brain by removing yourself from programming television and you're becoming the program director. Dan: Well, think about this as an entrepreneur, that if you want to know the distinction between an entrepreneur, and a non-entrepreneur you know and I think about this a lot because I've been at it for 50 years right now, and I've asked that question a lot, you know. Do you think entrepreneurs are born? And I said well that I couldn't attest to it. Yes, they were born, but you know, or you know, is it learned? And I said well, I don't know the answer to that question, but I would say that the entrepreneurs I know were on a path that was decidedly different, probably before they were 10 years old. They weren't going along with the crowd, they were. they were doing something individual, kind of on their own because, they were very curious about something, and most people who aren't entrepreneurs were more socially addicted. You know what did the group think and what they had, but if you think about that, you're a self programmer. The big thing about entrepreneurs is that we're self programmers, in other words, we program the next day, we program the next week, we program. You know, here we are on New Year's Eve and both of us are programming the next year and it really doesn't have to do with anybody else's programming. Dean: Yeah, that's the greatest thing. This is going to be a big 2024, it's going to be a big year. I mean you're about, you're going to turn 80 in. Dan: May, yeah, and it's 50 years coaching 50 years coaching since and the company. The program is 35 years old, so yeah, they're at 35th and yeah, I mean, yeah, they all three of them happened this year, but but I mean we just came off our best year ever. I mean just in terms of you know new people into the program and everything else. Yeah, we hit 52, which was great. 952 new people in the program that's awesome, and except for two presentations, I didn't have anything to do with that. That's a real, that's a real good measurement for me. Dean: Yeah, for sure. And now this year, this will be your first year with only free zone workshops. Dan: No that was. Dean: This was your first year. Dan: Yeah, this I stopped, I stopped. I'm just trying to take one. Did that Cross over? That's what I'm wondering, yeah. Dan: No, it was January of last year, January. Dean: Okay, so this year was yeah, I've gotten a full year full year with only free zone. Dan: Yeah, right, and you know, really caused a lot of tension for a lot of people in the company and everything else and I said, well, it's going to happen sometime. Why don't we just make it happen right now? Yeah. Dan: And you know there was pushback and you know the usual sort of thing. But my way of creating change is just to create a vacuum. Yeah, right, something's going to fill it. Speaker 3 Throw your hat over the fence. Yeah. Dan: So I announced in the middle of just trying to take care. I announced in the middle of 2021. So it was June of 2021. At the end of 22, I'm not going to do any more 10 times workshops. Right, yeah, I remember. Dan: People said, well, how are we going to do this? And I said my security clearance doesn't go that high, I just have no idea. I just know that after the end of next year I'm not going to do any 10 times workshops. Okay, and. I've done this enough in the past. People and Babs and I had already worked this out, so that wasn't Babs and I are saying that something's going to happen. Well, that's not negotiable. Dean: Right, yeah, that's awesome. Dan: But we have five coaches, who you know, who had to jump to the next level, and they did a good job and the renewals are more or less the same as if I was doing the workshops at the end of the first year, pointing off here, pointing out there. So you know, and you know, and I think we had 180 people who moved from the signature level to the end times. So that was great. Dean: Oh, I didn't have a. Dan: I didn't have anything to do with that, and the more things that can happen in the company that I don't do or don't even know about, the better I feel. Speaker 3 Yes, yes, that's yeah that's pretty exciting, I'm talking about. I'm talking about. Yeah, no, I bet it. Dean: I'm sure any dip in the you know 10 times conversions or whatever was offset by people in 10 times who want to stay with Dan moving up to freedom. Imagine that was offset by that. Yeah. Dan: Well, it pushes. It pushes both ways. But the one thing that we realized, that I hadn't thought of that. Really worked out great, and it's only because of COVID. It's the two hour. Zoom workshops, yeah, so every quarter. Dan: I do six two hour 10 times workshops and I do two hour free zone workshops and that little two hour thing, which was only possible because of COVID Nobody, nobody watched Zoom before. Covid has made a world of difference. It's made a world of difference. So I was only going to do that for a year and now I'm going to. I've extended it to the end of 24. And I like that yeah. Dan: But I like it, I like it and everybody else likes it, and it seems to work. But I don't think that would have ever happened if I hadn't just said no more full day in-person workshops. Dean: Right, yeah, that's fantastic, so you're coming up now. This is interesting, then the when did your quarterly book? Did that start on your birthday? That was the end of the end of 2014. Dan: So next December it'll be book 40. Dean: Right, okay, there you go. And we're just curious about your intention and your plan for your 80s being the best decades. Dan: Well, I'll do 40 more books because I'm not to 100 yet. So, and they're getting better. I mean, I can tell the feedback from our longtime clients. They said you know the books are really, they're really getting more interesting. They're not just program tools that you're explaining, you're doing right, doing all sorts of different things, but the insight I had, dean, was that a lot of people spend years, even decades, on books Okay, which, yeah, aren't finished, which aren't finished, right, and they they maybe have 20 or 30 chapters and each of the chapters are kind of interesting, not equal to each other but their interest. I said, why don't you just take one of the chapters and turn it out as a book? And of course you and I went through the early days when you could do this quickly, when you had the 90 minute book idea and are continuing to do that. And then I think it was who was it that came up with they could turn a book around in a week for you if you just send it in for them. Who is that Amazon? Is it Amazon? Yeah, I think it's Amazon Exactly. Dan: Yeah, amazon yeah, and we use. Dean: yeah, I mean it's yeah. Dan: And yeah, and perfectly good, you know, perfectly useful, and but we've got our own. You know print shops here in Toronto and it's a lot cheaper than in the US. We found out that a point to realize for you living in the States that getting a book printed in Toronto is about 40% cheaper than getting a book printed in Chicago, dollar for dollar. You know Canadian dollar. Dean: Wow, Even after the exchange rate right. Yeah, yeah. Dean: After the exchange rate yeah, yeah, you're, yeah. The other thing is yeah, my head. Dean: You know it's not a unique. You have a one of one style of book. That everything about it, from the double cover to the thickness of the color cover, to the paper stock on the inside and the color scheme, and you know it's one of one. There's no, there's nothing else like it. Dan: Yeah, and I've told people you know you're sitting on books. I mean you're always talking about writing the book. But where's the book? You know, why don't you just get the book finished? And they said well, you know, you know. I said I said you're thinking about it too much, you're not executed. I said just get the book out there. I said it's not going to change the world, it's not going to be a bestseller, they're not going to make a Hollywood movie out of it. So Right. And what it does is it gets some old ideas in your head out so that you can have some new ideas. Dean: Yeah, the truth isn't it. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what a collection to going all the way back to book number one and then to book, you know, whatever you're at now I'm working on 7 right now. Yeah, yeah. Dan: Well, I get a lot out of it and of course we've got great teamwork inside the company when we started with your team actually the first one. Dean: I remember the first couple Thinking about your thinking that was the first book. Dan: And then you know, some of our team members said well, we could do this, and we could do this, and we could do this. And I said that's great. Plus, the technology just keeps improving. I mean, if you think I started that in. Where's the technology today compared to where? it was in 2014,. Dan: You know. Yeah, yes. Dan: So my cartoonist Hamish McDonald. I estimate that every year I get the productivity capability of another Hamish just because of the upgrades to software and hardware. Dean: To the tools he's able to use and deploy. Dan: Oh. Dean: Yeah, oh yeah. Dan: I mean, like I'll, we're right at the end of the book I'm working on. So we're just working on the conclusion and the program where we describe strategic coach. Those are the last two sections. So on Tuesday I'll sit down and we'll sketch out what the cartoon is going to be for the conclusion. I've got the outline, with the outline copy all done, so we can read it. Yeah. Dan: And we'll sketch it out and we'll have another meeting on Thursday and he'll be 90% finished Full color. Yeah. Dan: And we do a little tweaks and then in the last 10 minutes we say well, let's look at the next section and he'll sketch it out, and on Monday of the following week he'll be finished with the cartoon. Book one that was a 10 day process for. That was a 10 day process for one sections cartoons. Dean: Right, well, it's wild. And now I guess you know I mean book 36,. You've got all of the ear. You've evolved it into all of the ways to consume. Now you know that you've got the cartoons and the audio and the video. Dan: Yeah, so we're going to do one new thing that Dean and we could talk about this. We're going to do one new thing, probably the first quarter. I'm going to take one of the books and we're just got it down to choice of three and we're going to create an AI chat on just that book. Okay, so the entire knowledge base will just be the words that are in that particular book. And then we'll use, and Leor Weinstein is helping us with this. Dean: And then. Dan: So in addition to the audio, the video, the cartoons, the text, you'll also get the AI and you can ask the book questions and it'll answer you. Dean: Do you think, dan, this is? I've had this in this conversation. Maybe we could have a whole discussion around this, but because I you know this is a very real capability of AI right now, but I think that there's. I would rather have the AI ask me questions and guide me through the process than me having to ask the questions. Yeah because that requires me having included yeah it requires work. Yes, that's exactly right. We're inquiring, you and I, how that's exactly right, and I would much rather I would love to have an AI coach me through applying this to me. So it was hey that hey, hey, hey yeah. Dan: Well, I think you should go get in the car and take a 15 minute, 15 minute drive to the car. Dean: I think that's not you know, because somebody else. No, no, no that's brilliant. Dan: That's brilliant. Let's talk about that. Yeah because somebody else that actually indicates some intelligence, doesn't it? Dean: Yes, but the thing is that you know that application where, if I could go through a track, it's like a guided thing. If you could train the AI as a coach in this to guide somebody through where they're at and how this would apply to them, like somebody had, because somebody was training up a Napoleon Hill that you could chat with Napoleon Hill and you could ask him any questions. And I just realized that much better experience. Dan: You could have one from Jerry Spence. Yes. Dean: How great would that be right, Jerry Spence coaching. Dan: Well, he would ask you all sorts of adverts questions before you know that's, that's his book is great, by the way, you put me on to him. Yes, you know more or less his autobiography. But nice person, I mean he comes across. I mean probably a prick if he was the opposing lawyer in a trial, but he seems like, if you had him on your side, you'd feel good about him. Dean: That's exactly true. I need to reread that again. That how to argue and win every time is one of my top wisdom books. Dan: Yeah, Anyway what did we cover today? What are two or three things that we covered today? Dean: So follow the money, follow the money. Dan: Yeah, we found out about what the Hamas is about. All the money was in Kedr, you know the country of. Kedr. The three top people were worth 6 billion, 5 billion and 4 billion. So that's what Hamas is all about is about money, you know, and their racket. Dean: That's amazing. Dan: Anyway, yeah, but okay, follow the money. What's in the other thing? Dean: Yeah, I think your strategy. It's always amazed me this last five years of your disconnecting from programming. Dan: Yeah other people's programming. Dean: Other people's programming. Yeah. Dean: I think that's a big thing. One thing we did not get to talk about that I want to maybe present next time is I watched another Russell Barclay video and they're talking about executive function and the. It's really an interesting distinction but the difference between you know what and how, knowing what and how is not effective. That the ADHD brain is not. It's not inhibited in the knowing what and how to do. It's the when and the where. That is where executive function comes in and I found that that's absolutely the truth in a real. It sounds so simple and obvious, but it's the absolute truth. That's the thing about you know. Imagine if you applied yourself. Applying yourself is only evidence in the when and the where, both where, when and where. Future and when and where is this going to happen and when and where did it happen? You know what actually happened. That's the an often those don't align. I find for me that's the biggest. That's the biggest disconnect is knowing what I want to do, knowing what you know, how it needs to happen, even projecting when and where, but the alignment of you know missing the exit kind of be interesting with the intention. Dan: That'd be an interesting question, yeah because, the appropriateness of things is really not the what or the how the appropriateness is really the when and where it makes appropriate or inappropriate, you know yeah. Yeah, great topic. Dean: Yeah, how about for you? What was your take away from today? Dan: Yeah, I think that the big thing that I'm zeroing in is the bet that human nature is fairly constant and that changing times simply means humans using different capabilities that they've already developed for new purposes, but the basic human nature remains fairly constant, and the more I mean it was, you know, was Jeff Bezos was asked what do you think's going to change most in the next 10 years, and he said the thing I'm most interested in what are the 10 things that aren't going to change? Yeah next 10 years, because you can actually bet on those. Yeah bet on those better than what is going to change Awesome. Dean: Well. Dan: I think we, I think we, each of us, says on our part today I think so Absolutely. Dean: I can't believe it. Let this quickly Alas, it did so, yeah, and. Dan: I'm we're in the schedule for Albie in Chicago next week. But we're in the schedule, so I'll talk to you from Chicago. Dean: I love it. That sounds great. All right, happy New Year, dan, to you and Babs. Have a wonderful night. Okay, we'll talk to you soon. Bye.

In this eye-opening interview, investigative reporter Natalie Winters exposes the Chinese Communist Party's (CCP) infiltration tactics and their impact on American society. From compromising politicians and academics to controlling supply chains and media narratives, the CCP's slow-burn approach aims to achieve control without firing a shot. Natalie discusses the influence of CCP-funded organizations and their efforts to shape discourse and policy in the United States. She also highlights the correlation between the open southern border and potential national security threats posed by Chinese nationals crossing into the country. Despite the dark picture painted, Natalie emphasizes the power of awareness and conversation in countering CCP influence. She also shares her own entrepreneurial venture, She's So Right, a clothing line that allows women to express their values in a fun and culturally cool way. Tune in to learn more about the CCP's infiltration tactics and how individuals can take action to protect American values and sovereignty. __________________________________________________________________________ ⇩ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS ⇩ BRAVE TV HEALTH: Parasites are one of the main reasons that so many of our health problems happen! Guess what? They're more active around the full moon. That's why friend of the Show, Dr. Jason Dean, developed the Full Moon Parasite Protocol. Get 15% off now by using our link: https://bravetv.store/CYOL MY PILLOW: By FAR one of my favorite products I own for the best night's sleep in the world, unless my four year old jumps on my, the My Pillow. Get up to 66% off select products, including the My Pillow Classic or the new My Pillow 2.0, go to https://www.mypillow.com use PROMO CODE: CYOL  ________________________________________________________________ DOWNLOAD AUDIO PODCAST & GIVE A 5 STAR RATING!: APPLE: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-create-your-own-life-show/id1059619918  SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/5UFFtmJqBUJHTU6iFch3QU (also available Google  Podcasts & wherever else podcasts are streamed  _________________________________________________________________ ⇩ VIDEO PLATFORMS ⇩ ➤ BITCHUTE: https://www.bitchute.com/channel/9GaIXqHEyTf5/ ➤ RUMBLE: https://rumble.com/c/JeremyRyanSlate ➤ ODYSEE: https://odysee.com/@jeremyryanslate:2  _________________________________________________________________ ⇩ SOCIAL MEDIA ⇩ ➤ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/jeremyryanslate ➤ INSTAGRAM https://www.instagram.com/jeremyryanslate ➤ FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/jeremyryanslate  _________________________________________________________________ ➤ CONTACT: JRS@JEREMYRYANSLATE.COM

In this eye-opening interview, investigative reporter Natalie Winters exposes the Chinese Communist Party's (CCP) infiltration tactics and their impact on American society. From compromising politicians and academics to controlling supply chains and media narratives, the CCP's slow-burn approach aims to achieve control without firing a shot. Natalie discusses the influence of CCP-funded organizations and their efforts to shape discourse and policy in the United States. She also highlights the correlation between the open southern border and potential national security threats posed by Chinese nationals crossing into the country. Despite the dark picture painted, Natalie emphasizes the power of awareness and conversation in countering CCP influence. She also shares her own entrepreneurial venture, She's So Right, a clothing line that allows women to express their values in a fun and culturally cool way. Tune in to learn more about the CCP's infiltration tactics and how individuals can take action to protect American values and sovereignty. __________________________________________________________________________ ⇩ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS ⇩ BRAVE TV HEALTH: Parasites are one of the main reasons that so many of our health problems happen! Guess what? They're more active around the full moon. That's why friend of the Show, Dr. Jason Dean, developed the Full Moon Parasite Protocol. Get 15% off now by using our link: https://bravetv.store/CYOL MY PILLOW: By FAR one of my favorite products I own for the best night's sleep in the world, unless my four year old jumps on my, the My Pillow. Get up to 66% off select products, including the My Pillow Classic or the new My Pillow 2.0, go to https://www.mypillow.com use PROMO CODE: CYOL  ________________________________________________________________ DOWNLOAD AUDIO PODCAST & GIVE A 5 STAR RATING!: APPLE: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-create-your-own-life-show/id1059619918  SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/5UFFtmJqBUJHTU6iFch3QU (also available Google  Podcasts & wherever else podcasts are streamed  _________________________________________________________________ ⇩ VIDEO PLATFORMS ⇩ ➤ BITCHUTE: https://www.bitchute.com/channel/9GaIXqHEyTf5/ ➤ RUMBLE: https://rumble.com/c/JeremyRyanSlate ➤ ODYSEE: https://odysee.com/@jeremyryanslate:2  _________________________________________________________________ ⇩ SOCIAL MEDIA ⇩ ➤ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/jeremyryanslate ➤ INSTAGRAM https://www.instagram.com/jeremyryanslate ➤ FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/jeremyryanslate  _________________________________________________________________ ➤ CONTACT: JRS@JEREMYRYANSLATE.COM

In this captivating episode of the Must Read Alaska Show, host John Quick sits down with Natalie Winters, the dynamic co-host of Steve Bannon's "War Room" and the creative mind behind the new conservative women's lifestyle brand, "She's So Right." Join us as Natalie delves into her journey from political commentary to fashion entrepreneurship, revealing the unique blend of style and conservative thought that shapes her brand.   She discusses the challenges and triumphs of infusing fashion with political discourse, her inspiration behind the brand's creation, and her vision for empowering conservative women through fashion. Winters also opens up about her experiences in the media industry, providing insights into the current political landscape and her role as a conservative commentator. Don't miss this insightful conversation where the worlds of fashion and conservative politics intriguingly collide! Check her brand out here: https://shessoright.co/

Follow Natalie Winters: https://twitter.com/nataliegwinters   She's So Right! https://shessoright.co https://twitter.com/ShopShesSoRight   We The People must stand strong, stay united, resolute, calm and focus on the mission - God Wins!   We at www.themelkshow.com want to thank all our amazing patriots pals for joining us on this journey, for your support of our work and for your faith in this biblical transition to greatness. We love what we do and are working hard to keep on top of everything to help this transition  along peacefully and with love. Please help us amplify our message: Like, Comment & Share!   The Show's Partners Page: https://themelkshow.com/partners/ Consider Making A Donation: https://themelkshow.com/donate/   Another way to get involved and find ways to become active in the community is to come meet Mel and many amazing truth warriors at our upcoming live in person speaking events. Together we are unstoppable. We look forward to seeing you. God Wins! https://themelkshow.com/events/   Youth Leadership Rally  West Palm Beach, January 13th   ReAwaken America Tour Detroit, MI June 7th & 8th    Remember to mention Mel K for great discounts on all these fun and informative events. See you there! Our Website www.TheMelKShow.com   Rumble (Video) - The Mel K Show: https://rumble.com/c/TheMelKShow Twitter: https://twitter.com/MelKShow Twitter (Original): https://twitter.com/originalmelk TRUTH Social: https://truthsocial.com/@themelkshow Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themelkshow/ CloutHub: https://app.clouthub.com/#/users/u/TheMelKShow Mel K Show Video Platform (Subscription): https://www.themelkshow.tv Bitchute: https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Iw2kiviwZpwx/ Podbean: https://themelkshow.podbean.com/ Gab: https://gab.com/MelKShow GETTR: https://www.gettr.com/user/themelkshow Locals.com: https://melk.locals.com/ Banned Video: https://banned.video/channel/the-mel-k-show Brighteon: https://www.brighteon.com/channels/themelkshow Odysee: https://odysee.com/@themelkshow:5   If you are interested to explore investing in precious metals please contact below and mention MelK for special offers:   Beverly Hills Precious Metals Exchange Buy Gold & Silver https://themelkshow.com/gold/ Speak with Gold Expert Andrew Sorchini…Tell Him Mel K Sent You!   Support Patriots With MyPillow Go to https://www.mypillow.com/melk Use offer code “MelK” to support both MyPillow and The Mel K Show   Mel K Superfoods Supercharge your wellness with Mel K Superfoods Use Code: MELKWELLNESS and Save Over $100 off retail today! www.MelKSuperfoods.com   Patriot Mobile Support your values, your freedom and the Mel K Show. Switch to Patriot Mobile for Free. Use free activation code MELK https://www.patriotmobile.com/melk/   HempWorx The #1 selling CBD brand. Offering cutting edge products that run the gamut from CBD oils and other hemp products to essential oils in our Mantra Brand, MDC Daily Sprays which are Vitamin and Herb combination sprays/ https://themelkshow.com/my-daily-choice/   Dr. Zelenko Immunity Protocols https://zstacklife.com/MelK   The Wellness Company - Emergency Medical Kits: www.twc.health/pages/melk-prepkit   Dr. Jason Dean and BraveTV bring you the most innovative and cutting edge science in Nutrition with Nano-Particle Detoxification, The Full Moon Parasite Protocol and Clot Shot Defense. https://bravetv.store/?sca_ref=3278505.GWvLbyryzv   Dr. Stella Immanuel, MD. Consult with a renowned healthcare provider! Offering Telehealth Services & Supplements. Use offer code ‘MelK' for 5% Off https://bit.ly/MelKDrStellaMD

What You Need to Know is that the Narrative Machine is lying all around us! One of the best ways to keep track of the Narrative Machine's narrative is to follow Politico. Their rhetoric around democracy is just a talking point of the left, used to target the right. In the US, they use it to attack Trump, and in Europe, they criticize the people for wanting to democratically vote against mass-migration. All while being silent about Zelensky canceling elections in Ukraine. The left only cares about Democracy and the will of the people when it lines up with their will for the people. Do not fall into believing the Narrative Machine's dishonest rhetoric. Natalie Winters, co-host of Steve Bannon's War Room and founder of Sh e's So Right, joins Ed to discuss her new lifestyle brand for conservative women. Natalie discusses how most brands are enmeshed in the world of leftism and resent conservative values, which motivated her to create clothing that both looks nice and aligns with conservative values. Mark Mix, President of the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation, joins Ed to discuss how 33 Democrat Senators sent a letter to non-union automakers urging ‘neutrality' to UAW unionization. Mark explains how this plays into the electric vehicle transition, as well as how the taxpayer money in the Inflation Reduction Act is being used to control corporations in the United States. Wrap Up: Tomorrow is January 6, and we should take a moment to say thank you to Rachel Powell for her bravery and perseverance through the legal process, even after being sentenced to nearly 5 years in prison. NBC is very dishonest about her.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Pals, our journey through the works of Carly Rae Jepsen finally draws to a close for the time being with 2023's The Loveliest Time! Join us as we decide which record is the best and which one has CRJ's worst song on it according to me, Bleachers! Listen along at home at: https://open.spotify.com/album/4bRYGKmKOkXvKL1QBf0cGk Timestamps: 1. Anything to Be with You - 14:55 2. Kamikaze - 18:12 3. After Last Night - 21:12 4. Aeroplanes - 24:40 5. Shy Boy - 28:01 6. Kollage - 31:31 7. Shadow - 35:47 8. Psychedelic Switch - 38:37 9. So Right - 43:09 10. Come Over - 46:46 11. Put It to Rest - 49:40 12. Stadium Love - 53:00 13. Weekend Love - 55:50 Contact us at: twitter.com/the3rdonesucks the3rdonesucks@gmail.com This episode of The 3rd One Sucks: Sophomore Slump was hosted by Dan Ellis, Mark Beall and Jake Mason. Mixed and Edited by Mark Beall and Dan Ellis Intro/Outro Music by Dan Ellis. The 3rd One Sucks is a Retrograde Orbit Radio production. Find more great shows like this at www.retrogradeorbitradio.com

I love the opportunity to have had Dr. Christin Roberson as a guest on Unstoppable Mindset. Christin, like others who we all have met, was born into a military family and spent much of her youth traveling from one place to another. Christin loved the travels and the experiences. Her youth gave her a broad view of people which helped her later as she began a career in higher education. More important, as she will tell us, she learned over the past seven years, that she had strengths that not only served her well in her original career, but that also caused her to “pivot” into a coaching and entrepreneurial business. Today she uses her strengths to help others who are considering a career change. She also uses her skills and knowledge to help her clients learn about and better utilize their own strengths. Often, as she will describe, people may not even recognize their individual strengths and gifts, but once they do and embrace them these people really can move on and advance. Christin is just completing a course about strengths and how you can use your gifts. We have information about the course in the notes. I hope you find this episode timely and valuable. About the Guest: Dr. Christin L. Roberson, EdD, is a Gallup Certified Strengths Coach who employs her top five strengths—Relator, Learner, Achiever, Developer, and Deliberative—by developing genuine relationships with others, learning about their talents, helping them reach new levels of productivity, and teaching others how to utilize their strengths to make sound decisions in their personal and professional pursuits. She recently pivoted from a 15+ years career in higher education into recruiting in the tech industry and now provides full-time career services. Her educational background includes a Doctorate in Higher Education Leadership from Azusa Pacific University, a Master's in Education in Educational Organization and Leadership with a concentration in Higher Education from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, and a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology from Alverno College.  Dr. Roberson has also been featured as a guest on Gallup's podcast, Called to Coach, presented at the 2017 CliftonStrengths Summit, and completed Strengths Certification Training in Higher Education at Azusa Pacific University. Ways to connect with Rob: The Career Doc Website,  Instagram,  LinkedIn,  Facebook About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes **Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.  **Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi, welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity in the unexpected meet. I love that unexpected part. It makes it so much fun. Then today, we get to chat with Christin Roberson. She is a certified Gallup strengths coach, we're going to learn about that. She's spent a lot of time in higher education. And now we'll she'll tell you what she does now as we get to it. And obviously is had what I would say is a fascinating life, and a life we're talking about, which is how we got her to come on unstoppable mindset. So, Kristen, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. **Christin Roberson ** 01:58 Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here. **Michael Hingson ** 02:01 Well, why don't we start? It's always fun to why don't you tell us a little about kind of the early Christin, you know, where, where you came from growing up, and any of those good kinds of things that you think would be relevant for us to know? **Christin Roberson ** 02:16 Well, I was born on November 8, no, I won't go that far. **Michael Hingson ** 02:20 And you had to walk 12 miles when you were 12 years old, just to return three cents to someone. Right? Yeah. Yeah, that was me. That was me. Yeah. It wasn't like and it was you? Yeah. **Christin Roberson ** 02:32 I think probably the best way to start is that I'm an Army brat. So life was very different. And of growing up. My dad was in the army for 2020 plus years or so. And so my whole life was basically moving every three years. And so change was constant. Change was constant, friends were always new. So I learned how to be pretty resilient and adjust fairly quickly. At an early age, it got harder as I got older, but early Christin moved a lot. And so I think it probably characterizes why I moved so much when I was younger, because I enjoyed it. I think a lot of my earlier experiences too, were around education, I always wanted to be in the field of education wanted to be a teacher initially. And then a counselor and I started working in higher education and got the bug and started working in housing and thought it would be a good idea to live and work with college students. Which is can be good and bad. But it was a wonderful experience that really taught me a lot about building community, you know, handling a lot of tough decisions and problem solving and really helping others grow because college students are, you know, very much in a developmental phase in their life, and to be kind of a part of them figuring themselves out through the good and the bad, was something that I feel like I really enjoyed. And I think kind of followed me on to my further career is to always be in some type of helping profession, where I'm helping other people kind of figure things out, and kind of shaped what they want their life to be. So I hope that answers your question. **Michael Hingson ** 04:13 My wife was a teacher for 10 years, she loved elementary school. And she said she really loved third grade, because the kids in third grade were still really developing attitudes and so on. And she said, by the time they got to even sixth and seventh grade, much less than high school, it was harder to teach them and to really have an influence on their lives. Yet at the same time, I hear a number of people say exactly what you said about college that and I think we all of us who've been to college would would mostly agree that even when you go to college, you're you're still really looking for yourself. So how does that correlate with like what my wife felt about third graders? **Christin Roberson ** 04:50 Yeah, well, there's from our own kind of study from higher ed like there's these different phases. And so I think there's different phases in life up to development. And you know, thinking about your wife, a lot of that development is not just kind of figuring out who you are figuring out how to walk, how to do very basic foundational things to learn as just being a person, but I think when you get to college, they formed a lot of that already. So it's kind of helping them figure out, or at least in my experience, a lot of what's right and what's wrong. And how to exist in a world where there are a lot of temptations and making the best decisions for yourself. So it's kind of some of those more moral, maybe foundational pieces that you kind of get to, you help them shape, maybe some other, you know, foundational things, too, if that's something that they didn't get growing up, which was the case with a lot of students, depending on how they grew up. But a lot of times, a lot of the morality issue will just like, Okay, why did why did you think it was a good idea to do that much drinking, and I found you on the grass outside of my building passed out? Let's talk about making good decisions. So it helped with a lot of a lot of that. Those are a lot of the conversation. **Michael Hingson ** 06:04 Did anybody ever say to you, though, well, you know, I feel sorry for people who don't drink because then they get up in the morning. That's as good as they're gonna feel for the rest of the day. I listen to too much Dean Martin, what can I tell? **Christin Roberson ** 06:18 Two great lines ever said that before I've gotten cussed out before by students who weren't drunk, but nobody ever said that before. **Michael Hingson ** 06:25 I was at the University of California, Irvine, and I think it was in my senior year I was living on campus apartment, because I kind of outgrew living in a dorm. by that. I mean, I had too many Braille books wouldn't all fit in a dorm room. So they let me live in a campus apartment. I had two roommates, who actually moved with me from my dorm. And one of them decided one night to drink. He hadn't done it before. We had those 12 or 16 ounce wienerschnitzel glasses, Coke glasses, and he started drinking screwdrivers. And the first one was maybe about a quarter to a third full of vodka and the rest was orange juice. Then the next one was half vodka. And the next was basically all vodka by five in the morning. He was ill horrible, convinced me never to want to get drunk and I never have I don't never had a desire to do that. So no, yeah, I I have had a couple of times that I did drink something that someone gave me and said it's very strong. Drink it slow. I did over about an hour and I still had a little bit of a lightheadedness and I said if that's the way drinkin starts, forget it. So I wasn't imperative to the point where I couldn't move around and walk and all that but I understand what what alcohol can do. And I saw it with with my roommate and what happened to him. He was bad for a while he was just not not doing well in the bathroom. It was one of those horrible things. **Christin Roberson ** 08:10 There was some caution tape over that door. **Michael Hingson ** 08:12 Well, it was all about. Yeah. And you could hear you know, and we were all helping him. We supported him. But he was just doing a lot of throwing up to get it all out of his system. But it's no fun. Not at all. Drink it up. 1216 ounce glass of pure vodka. Yeah. So that's bound to happen. Yeah, it's bound to happen. But I hear what you're saying. I think there's a there's a it's like anything College offers so many opportunities to learn, and as also a matter of being open enough to take advantage of them and really learn too, isn't it? **Christin Roberson ** 08:50 Absolutely. **Michael Hingson ** 08:52 So people just can grow. I really enjoyed college life. I enjoyed dorm life. And then when we moved to the apartment, which we as I say we had to do, because I needed the space for Braille books. Getting a master's in physics, Braille takes up a lot of space and physics. But nevertheless, it was it was fun and still participated in campus activity. So it was very enjoyable. So you what was your Bachelor's in **Christin Roberson ** 09:21 my bachelor's in psychology? The plan was to be a clinical psychologist, mainly working with with young people. And then that went away. When I started working in higher ed, I realized I enjoy working with college students and still got to use that psychology degree every single **Michael Hingson ** 09:39 day. So what were you doing? What was your job in higher ed when you started? How long ago was that, by the way? **Christin Roberson ** 09:45 Um, well, I probably have about 15 years of experience working in higher education. It started in housing. So in the dormitories most people will call it so it was basically running a bit building building manager of sorts. And so anything that was happening, you know, with the building of like, anywhere from two to 400 students packed in the building. I would oversee, you know, the resident, you know, the RAS and supervise them and plant programs and all that. And then most recently, it was working in what did I do? First year programs. So a lot of it was around programs and work that we were doing with incoming freshmen. So I oversaw a course the introductory course that every freshman basically had to take, and kind of the design of it hiring, you know, of staff and managing it. So yeah, it was a lot of work. But it was, it was very enjoyable to kind of see the results and the fruit of your labor to see students growing and kind of learning from it. **Michael Hingson ** 10:51 I started as a freshman at UC Irvine in the fall of 1968. I sure wonder, and I'm sure that there is a lot that's changed. But I just wonder how it's all changed and how the student programs go. I've had the pleasure of being invited to speak at various colleges, including it some freshman orientation programs over the past several years and see a lot of the difference. But it's, it certainly has to have changed a lot in well for me now. 55 years. **Christin Roberson ** 11:21 Oh, gosh, it's very different. It's so different. **Michael Hingson ** 11:27 But but it's important to keep up with that. **Christin Roberson ** 11:30 It is and but some of it is just scary, because there's so much to keep up with. But yeah, me and a friend of mine, we always kind of talk about, you know, some of those things where we're like, did we have to deal with this when we were younger, you know, with some of the online bullying and having to keep up with social social media so big and we're like, we didn't have that. I didn't have a cell phone in high school. I didn't get one till I was maybe like, I don't know, a sophomore in college. So Right. My life did not revolve around social media or technology. It was like, Okay, here's my phone book that has the numbers, and it's a call people. But it's so so different now. And everything is so out there and live, you know everything kind of instantly. And it's just like, that is a lot. **Michael Hingson ** 12:16 Yeah, I'm not totally sure. It's all a good thing to have such interesting gratification and have such ready communications, especially when a lot of times, factually changes by the time the real truth comes out. I mean, I've watched the news and I see a news headline about one thing or another. And within a day or two, it changes because it really wasn't quite the way it was originally reported. And nobody does anything to regulate that or, or at least do some fact checking before they put the news out. And I don't mean that in a negative political way. I just mean in a, in a factual way about everything that comes out. Oh, **Christin Roberson ** 12:52 my goodness, I completely agree. It's like, can we wait until we get all the information? Before we say that this is what happened? Or what they did? Yeah. You know, **Michael Hingson ** 13:02 you hear about a plane crash, and you hear some things and oh, well, it changes in a day or so well, updated information. Well, you didn't really have information before you had what, what were rumors or what one person said. And we're teaching ourselves that we got to have this information all the time, and that we don't really look at getting accurate information, necessarily. It's more important just to have something and that's crazy. **Christin Roberson ** 13:30 Yeah, it's the breaking news, like CNN effect was breaking news. Something happened, we're not sure what it is. But we're gonna keep saying that for the next hour, or **Michael Hingson ** 13:38 two or three. Right? And, and I remember, well, one example that comes to mind is I was here in July of 2019. And I was about to go to the convention of the National Federation of the Blind, I was gonna go over on a Friday. And the day before, on Thursday, we had an earthquake, and it was a pretty substantive earthquake, it was six point something which, and it was on a fault that really we hadn't had much stuff on before. The epicenter was about 100 miles north and east of us. But the media came on and started talking about it. And every five minutes, they say the same old thing over and over again, rather than you said it, don't keep focusing on this because you're not adding any value. Until you get more information. Of course, then they eventually did. Dr. Lucy Jones at Cal Tech came on and started discussing more about it and that's great, but for an hour or more, they just had all of the same old stuff time and time again, it's just crazy. No, **Christin Roberson ** 14:49 a lot of times like they're, you know, forecast and like I feel like because I lived in California for a time and so, you know, we get an earthquake and then that would be the discussion of the big one. That's kind of the norm Ridge, it's coming in, here's what it could look like. And it's like this doomsday prophecy. And it's just like, Okay, this happens all the time in California. We know something's coming. But do you have to talk about it now? And we're still trying to recover from one? Yeah. **Michael Hingson ** 15:15 Yeah. And the big one. Yeah, that's, well, if it comes, it comes. But you know, so So just go ahead and continue to scare people. Right? Yeah. It makes for an interesting world. But for college students, that is the world that they live in now. And it I, I've got to believe, especially even more than college kids being a little kid, it's gotta be tough, because there's so much stuff that's being thrown at you all the time. And probably a lot of parents don't know how to really filter that or deal with it. Yeah, **Christin Roberson ** 15:50 I cannot imagine being a parent. You know, right. Now, I know, it wasn't easy, you know, necessarily for anybody's parents growing up, because things were changing and growing all the time. But things move at a super fast pace now of learning and having to figure things out. And just as a parent trying to be aware of like, okay, what are these words mean? Or if I see this, what does this mean? Oh, that's a code for this. Okay. That's the code for dress. Oh, oh, my gosh, it's so overwhelming. **Michael Hingson ** 16:22 Yeah. And, and it's just thrown at you all the time, because we have such instant communications or instant gratification about communications. And I don't mind instant communications. But again, gee, let's make sure we have it right a little bit part of the at least part of the time. **Christin Roberson ** 16:43 And I think a lot of young people like, you know, especially in college is kind of this invincibility, like they haven't yet grappled with the fact that you know, something can happen to you, you're not invincible, because you're young. And a lot of them make really poor decisions and kind of put it out there for everybody to see. And don't remember when you put it out there, it's there forever. So I ended up talking to those students from a career perspective to say you might want to do a little research on the internet of what pops up when you type in your name, because that party that you went to, and 97 is still out there, and an employer can see that. So those are always fun conversations. **Michael Hingson ** 17:22 Well, and we see it even with with politicians who get bombed by something that happened 20 and 25 years ago, and they're being held responsible, just like it happened yesterday. And it's that really relevant. We have interesting standards we live by, don't we? **Christin Roberson ** 17:40 Oh, my goodness, yeah, that happened 20 years ago, they were a completely different person. **Michael Hingson ** 17:45 Yeah. And it's crazy that, that you still have to, but you're right, it's there. And you have to deal with it at some point and, and address it, because everything goes out on the web today. And a lot of things are dredged up, just because there were somewhere and so somebody digitized it, and it's out there on the web again. **Christin Roberson ** 18:07 Just like, you know, entertainment, it can blow up into something else, I could have made a statement that, you know, I don't eat burgers anymore, I'm trying to look into my oh my gosh, she hates animals. She thinks like, she's this and this and that. And it's like, that's not what I said, I just said, I made the personal decision not to eat meat, you know, beef or something. And they can blow it up into something where it's like, that's, that's not at all what I was trying to communicate. When **Michael Hingson ** 18:31 I worked at Guide Dogs for the Blind. One day, I went in and delivered a speech. And I was describing what a guide dog does, as opposed to what a person does. And I've said that a guide dog doesn't guide doesn't lead the guide. Their job is to make sure that we walk safely. And my job is to give commands and say where we want to go. And I said another way you could look at it is that I'm the brains of the outfit, not the dog and someone called Guide Dogs for the Blind the next day. And they said they heard about this speech that Mike Hanson gave, and he said that dogs don't have brains. Oh, my goodness. Which is not what I said at all, **Christin Roberson ** 19:12 at all. But you know, they wanted to they **Michael Hingson ** 19:16 heard what they wanted to hear, which is unfortunate. How do students react when you have those conversations with them about Be careful about what you put out there and stuff? **Christin Roberson ** 19:26 You know, some of them will kind of just give the lip service, you know, yeah, kind of know what you mean. And then it's not until they they're in my office for like the second or third time which just happened. And we're like, okay, I remember when I told you you've done this a couple of times. how's this working out with you hanging out with this group of people because you're trying to be, you know, popular, but you are. You're pre med. How do you think that's really going to work out for you? When they you know, look at your record, your grades are poor because you've done these other you have to kind of give them like the big picture from the small steaming Really minut detail to them. The consequences of that can be far, you know, long lasting than you just being in my office and me giving you, you know, a task to do or whatever or you being on probation. So I think that there comes like, some surprised, but also, there's still a lot of times the invincibility piece like, Oh, it'll be fine. Nobody cares about that. So they don't really get it until it happens. It happens. Yeah, unfortunately. **Michael Hingson ** 20:29 Yeah. It's like, so many things, people fear, the whole concept of blindness, partly because we emphasize eyesight so much. But there's also that thing in the back of their mind, this could happen to me what a horrible thing that would be rather than recognizing is just another way of learning to use the gifts that you have eyesight is not the only game in town. But that's not what people want to hear and what they want to believe. So it also makes for a great challenge. **Christin Roberson ** 21:00 Whoo. Yeah, there's definitely a focus on a very specific kind of person or lifestyle. And anything outside of that. It's just like, oh, my gosh, life must be so hard for you. And I'm like, it's probably hard for you to. **Michael Hingson ** 21:15 Yeah, we all have. We all have things that we deal with. And people today say, well, you're differently abled. And I say how? Well you're blind. How does that make me differently abled, the ability is the same. It's the tools that I may use to get there. But you know, I feel sorry for you. Because you have to turn the lights on tonight, you're screwing up the whole carbon footprint by having to run all this electricity, I don't need to do that. **Christin Roberson ** 21:40 I never thought of it in that way. **Michael Hingson ** 21:43 Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb is a reasonable accommodation for light dependent people who can't function in the dark. Which is another way of saying you have a disability too. It's just that technology has mostly covered it up. But seriously, it doesn't change the fact that it's there. It's true. **Christin Roberson ** 22:00 I could not agree more. **Michael Hingson ** 22:02 So well. So you at some point decided to move away from doing higher education college stuff, and you had been doing it 15 years? What? What caused you to go off and go in a different direction? **Christin Roberson ** 22:15 Yeah, well, I think, one, I really had no desire to move up in the field, because I had seen what kind of the C suite looked like, at several different institutions. And a lot of times they have far less contact with students. And I really liked working one on one. But I always chose positions that were student facing where I was planning programs, or supervising them or doing something that was very much focused on the student experience. And I realized, like, okay, we can stay in this kind of, you know, assistant director or coordinator position, forever, or we can decide that maybe we want to try and do something else. I think, you know, higher ed is also very slow to change. And a lot of ways and I think that's why so many have closed and not even just because of COVID was because I think higher education thinks it's invincible to everybody's always going to go to college. And it's like, no, the price tag gets higher and higher every year, people are finding something different to do that is more economical, and advantageous to them than spending four years where you can learn that maybe in like 18 months and an online program and be out working. And so I think that's been a reckoning for higher ed. And so knowing that information, in addition to just a lot of the toxicity that I experienced, made it made it that I'm like, Okay, let's, let's look at something else. Let's look at our strengths. Let's look at what we actually enjoy about this work and how it applies to other industries. And so I took a look at it, and started just looking for jobs. And I'm like, what jobs are interesting to me, that aren't higher at focus. And that's where I kind of started seeing the pattern around things like, you know, human resources, or, you know, people management and things of that nature, which I had done before a long time ago. But I think it was really assessing the current situation, whether it aligned with my values and what I want it and I discovered that it wasn't and it was time to do something different. **Michael Hingson ** 24:24 So what did you end up pivoting to? As you would put it, and how long ago was that? Yeah, **Christin Roberson ** 24:32 so it actually wasn't long ago. And it felt like a very quick pivot. So I learned that sometimes you have to So I left my institution, I ended up taking a contract job, which was not the plan to not have health insurance immediately. But the pay was good enough that I could afford you know my own. So I ended up taking a position in the tech industry where Working in recruiting for a program that oversaw apprenticeships, for the organization, and then some kind of early career programming so long ago. Oh, gosh, that was maybe just like, a year or two ago. Oh, gosh. So **Michael Hingson ** 25:15 coming out of COVID. **Christin Roberson ** 25:17 Yeah, coming out of COVID. And so I worked remotely, you know, it was based in, you know, the Bay Area. And so every now and then I got to travel, you know, and the tech, the tech sector, which a lot of my friends also pivoted into, and they were kind of the inspiration before me, I saw them pivoting into that area, and they were, you know, making way more money than any of us could have ever dreamed and education. The place that I worked at had like, unlimited vacation, and it was just like, how does that work? Do you never have to work? Like, do you? I'm taking off six months, and I'll be back, you know, in the fall. But it became this really interesting concept that there was more out there. And so sadly, I was a contract for six months. And then they converted me to full time. And then I want to say the day after my birthday, I got laid off. It was a quick process. It was like makes a lot of sense. And so well. But I think again, like nobody saw what was coming, or was maybe not as prepared as they thought they were for, you know what happened economically. And even a company like mine that had never done layoffs, had to deal with kind of that harsh reality. And I knew it was coming, you know, I was one of the you know, let you know, a newer hire and sounds like I get it. I'm low on the totem pole. But the day after my birthday. **Michael Hingson ** 26:45 Yes, a little rude. Yeah, I **Christin Roberson ** 26:47 was on vacation at the time. It was, it was difficult. It was a rough vacation. **Michael Hingson ** 26:54 Yeah, I, I've been there and and had similar kinds of situations not right after my birthday. But I've been in situations where I was working for a company, actually in 2019. And I was going to go deliver a speech in Northern California, and then we were going to take a week off. But the morning that I was to travel, I was notified that well, we've spent too much money, we have to lay some people off, and you're one of them. Well, thanks, wow, which ended the vacation idea, but we still went up into the speech because I had made that commitment and it brought in some money. But still, it is it is never fun. So if your plans change, and sometimes you just don't have control over those changes happening. **Christin Roberson ** 27:48 It's unfortunate, like you have to have a plan B through Z is especially in this day and age where it's like really, and truly anything can happen. I've, I've worked with a couple clients now where they're on like their third layoff. And it's just like, wow, and you just kind of keep going out there. Because you don't, you don't know you have to work you have to provide for your family, you know, you have a specialization in that area. And you just have to kind of keep going out and trying. But I think that it's it's, it's heavy, it's heavy to kind of deal with that. And you start to, you know, maybe doubt your abilities and your strengths in that. And so a lot of my work with with folks has been kind of encouraging and affirming them in their abilities that you've been laid off has nothing to do with you as a person or your skill set. This is a business decision. **Michael Hingson ** 28:39 Which may or may not be right, but still it is true. **Christin Roberson ** 28:41 Right? But reframing it I think sometimes kind of helps and kind of helping them focus on okay, but you still have this set of skills. You know, Liam Neeson style have a specific set of skills to do a certain thing. And kind of helping them, you know, point that in the right direction. **Michael Hingson ** 29:01 So, it happened to you and then what did you do? **Christin Roberson ** 29:05 Yeah, so I had already had like, a lot of travel plans. So I ended up doing a lot of traveling probably because it was also basically December, so it was holidays, too. So I was traveling, so I decided I'm gonna keep my travel, I'm gonna still go ahead and have fun and enjoy it. And then we'll come back to the reality when the holidays are over. And so I started again, kind of looking at jobs and seeing like, what is interesting to me, do I want to go back into higher education because that is where, you know, my skill set is predominant, or do we want to give this a go and it's something else? Now while I was working the job in tech, I was getting a lot of people reaching out to me that worked in higher education. And they were like, Well, how did you do that? How did you pivot? And so I started having conversations with people people started asking for help with their resumes. And, you know, okay, how do you what's the interview process? Like? How do you negotiate? And so I started having these conversations, it started kind of a very beta test of a coaching of a coaching job. And so I didn't charge anything at the time, I just asked people to give me a LinkedIn recommendation, if they, you know, were happy with my work. And so after the layoff, I, you know, I had an interview somewhere, it didn't, you know, turn out the way that I hoped, and I decided, okay, all roads seem to point towards this career coaching, because that is what I'm getting the most attention for. And it's something that I actually really enjoyed. So I just started fine tuning what that looked like, and okay, I need a website, I need this and this and that. And started kind of formulating, what would be, you know, the career doc? **Michael Hingson ** 30:54 So you started your own business? **Christin Roberson ** 30:57 I did. I did. Great. Are you? **Michael Hingson ** 31:00 And are you having fun? Sunday's **Christin Roberson ** 31:06 you know, overwhelmingly, it's what's fun is I absolutely love the work of coach, I love coaching. What is not so fun is a lot of the logistics around it, it's very expensive. And a lot of the advice they say and you know, in the beginning is to spend as little amount, you know, money, but the more you do spend, the better. Things kind of get, and the more attractive people might be to your to your product. And there were just some things I couldn't handle. So I think that's the part that kind of gets this isn't fun to have to, you know, buy another thing or this rate is going up. But I'd love, love, love just the one on one nature of helping people kind of figuring out what to do next, or what to do different. **Michael Hingson ** 31:49 Do you get support? Do you get people to help you with some of the logistical things and things that you don't really like to do? So do you have any kind of staffer help to do any of that? **Christin Roberson ** 32:00 I do. Probably like in the last month or two? Yeah. Someone I actually knew from my higher ed days had a side business of basically doing administrative work. And so I reached out to her, and we kind of did a trial run of sorts. And so she handles all the admin stuff, kind of going through my overflowing inbox and making sure you know, people get rescheduled. And then I ended up hiring somebody to do marketing, because marketing is everything. And I just did not have time or capacity or really allowed the expertise to do the things that she can do. So, and then also, I'm going to be launching a course soon on Route Career Discovery. And I hired a course designer to help with that. And so because I realized, like, I can't do this on my own. Because one, it's overwhelming, but there's also people who have strengths in these areas that I don't have, and I think I need their help. **Michael Hingson ** 33:00 Well, as you go toward doing your course and so on, I, I would assume you've had enough time at doing this, that you realize that it's okay to charge not overly so but to charge and charge a decent fee for what you do because you're worth it. Yeah, it's, **Christin Roberson ** 33:19 it's difficult. But you do have to do it. A lot **Michael Hingson ** 33:24 of people will say, well, but how do I know people will pay $1,000 for a course or something like that, or for whatever it is that I'm doing. And the reality is we mostly underrate our gifts, our abilities, and our worth. And sometimes you've got to start by not charging or not charging much to get people to to come. But if they really want to continue with you, then you've got to make it really clear and get them to acknowledge you're worth it. Yeah, **Christin Roberson ** 33:58 I think the difficult thing about that is like a lot of my population are folks that have maybe worked in education. And as someone who's worked in education, I know how much we don't make. Right. Right. That becomes a struggle of like, I don't want to price out, you know, my prime audience. **Michael Hingson ** 34:16 But you know what to do in that situation, though? And yeah, that's the point. Yeah. **Christin Roberson ** 34:21 So you know, you work through some of that stuff. And then you have different price points for different things and kind of go forth. But I think I'm just now getting into that space of just like, Okay, we've been doing this for a while, you know, we we've made a profit, we've had to hire some people. It might be time to kind of raise our prices, like everybody says, to do that every kind of expert. Yeah, you're like, Oh, you're charging way lower. And I'm like, I don't want people to not be able to do this. But **Michael Hingson ** 34:50 the other side. The other side of that, though, is that if they really want to do this, and I know you don't want to price yourself out of the market, but if they really want Do it, they will find ways to come up with funds to to make it happen. And you may have to adjust exactly how you charge like, maybe you don't do it all at once you charged for payment schedule or something. I mean, who knows, but people can always find ways to do things, if they really value what it is that they want to do. **Christin Roberson ** 35:21 Yeah. And that, honestly, what you just said is exactly what I did. I started looking into kind of those, you know, you know, what is it pay per service, or, you know, PayPal has a program paying for, you know, installments, and so I started looking at installment payments. And that helped quite a bit where you don't have to pay it all at once. Like, I'll get it all at once. But then you're paying it slower. And that was something that helped. And that took research and just kind of is that something I could do? Yeah, I could do that. And it still allows me to charge you know, what I think is, you know, necessary and values need but also allows them to have a little bit more flexibility with how long it takes them to pay for something. **Michael Hingson ** 36:06 There's a course I needed to take a few years ago, and they wanted a bunch of money upfront. And I said, I really value the course I want to do it. I know what I'll get out of it. But I can't pay you all that money, can we work out a schedule, and God bless them they did. And what Normally people would pay in one lump sum of I don't even remember what the total was, but it was significant. They let me pay it over two years. Oh, wow. But we had a we had a schedule, we had it set up so that the money automatically came out. So they were confident in it, and it worked out. So there are a lot of ways to do it. If people want to make something happen, they can. And when you're willing to really help make it happen, then so much the better, because then you establish a more meaningful relationship. Yeah, **Christin Roberson ** 36:52 I think that's true. Because at the heart of the matter, I just, I really have a passion for kind of helping people, you know, especially in their career, because of what I, you know, experience through a lot of hard lessons to learn about, you know, not only just valuing myself, but also just kind of recognizing that there is more out there, you don't have to be, you know, chained to a desk and always working, you know, at night pass work on the weekends. That's not really live in life. And some people love that. But it wasn't for me, and it was something worse, like I can do something different. And I want to help other people do the same to work at home. **Michael Hingson ** 37:29 And I like my weekends. But also there are some things that I maybe didn't get done during the weekend, I'll do them on the weekends. But I can also spread things out and do them when I want. There's a lot of fun, I'm used to doing a lot of work at home, not necessarily going into an office, although I also value, the time when I can go into an office, but still working at home is a lot of fun. And you can schedule your times now, my life changed because my wife of 40 years passed away this last November. So now I can be up at 530 in the morning without worrying about waking her up. Which is a good thing. And as I tell people though, she's she's monitoring me if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it. So but but she doesn't have to worry about waking up at 530 in the morning. She's going to monitor all the time anyway. So I can do that. But at the same time if I decide I want to go to bed at eight or 830 I can do that too. **Christin Roberson ** 38:25 Yeah, yeah, I definitely caught the stay at home. But during the pandemic, I was Yeah, working in education, and they sent us you know, home or whatever. And I was like, I think I actually thrive a little bit better being at home. I'm an introvert also. So I don't necessarily always need the the interaction and I could get it you know, if I wanted to, you know, through different chats or meet offline. But overwhelmingly I was like, I think I function better being at home. And just being able to do what I need to it was a part of what I needed to thrive. Some people Oh, you're so lazy. You don't want to go into the office? And I'm like, No, actually, it's just a preference. I didn't know it was the option we ever had. And now that we do, I don't want to let it go. **Michael Hingson ** 39:13 And the reality is the pandemic has taught us that there's a lot of value in people being able to work in a hybrid environment and spending some of that time working at home. Yeah, **Christin Roberson ** 39:23 and you get to use your own toilet. I'm just saying. It's just like you can make your own lunch, you can take a nap if you want to, like you can do things that actually make work not feel quite as daunting by kind of like, okay, I'm going to shape what my day looks like. Yeah. **Michael Hingson ** 39:44 And, and it works. And I think a lot of companies are starting to recognize that which hopefully will lead to a little bit more common sense in terms of who work environment will tell me about this whole concept of being a Gallup certified string. Just coach, I've never heard of somebody who was certified by Gallup. Yeah. So **Christin Roberson ** 40:06 they probably found is that I was working in higher education, because that's where, you know, a lot of the Clifton Strengths Assessment is administered is in higher education with students. And I had taken, you know, the assessment, you know, maybe one or two times. And then in one particular job, I worked at an online university that was connected to a larger university that was strengths based. And I was like, what is that? What does that mean? And so I ended up taking the assessment again, and then I got coaching from someone who was certified. And I was like, Oh, wow, this, this makes quite a difference. And there's like 5 million different assessments, you know, what color is your balloon? Right foot left foot, you know, you know, that tells you about what you do best. But this one gave language to the things that I did well, and how I approached kind of situations and problems. And so it made more sense to me. So I started looking into, like, how can I get more training on this. And so they had, at the larger institution I was connected to, you know, they had a training that was more focused on higher education, students success, so I took that. But I really wanted to get a larger Foundation. And so I ended up going to the very first Clifton Strengths summit that they had, I couldn't even tell you what year maybe 2016 or so. And it was there that they started talking about the certification piece. And here's what you get out of it, this is what it is. And I decided, like, I think I want to do this, because this is something I feel like I would integrate into every job that I had. And I really believe in this. So I spent the money, I definitely use student loan money, because I was still in school at the time. And I went to Omaha, Nebraska for a week and did an intense start of our strengths kind of training process, because you take the classes, and then you have to get a number of people to I guess, recommend you or give you a rating on your coaching. And then you take an exam, and then that's when you kind of find out whether you're you're going to be certified or not. So it's a lengthy process, but it was well worth it. **Michael Hingson ** 42:23 And it's it's run by or ultimately Gallup is involved. **Christin Roberson ** 42:27 Yes, yeah. Yeah. So when you're certified, you're certified through Gallup. **Michael Hingson ** 42:33 So you can start going off and doing polls now. Well, so and you are certified as a strength coach, what does that mean? Yeah. **Christin Roberson ** 42:45 So what it means is that there's a level of expertise that I have, and being able to talk about strengths and help other people kind of develop, and train. So a lot of my early work was around, kind of working with teams, and helping teams to kind of work better together. And to kind of discuss, like, you know, you work better together as a team, because everybody has different strengths. And here's the best practices on how you can kind of work together better, because some folks are butting heads, or there's something called kind of the shadow side of strengths. It sounds very ominous. But essentially, it's kind of the the side of your strength where you're not maybe using it correctly, it's not matured, or it's causing problems for you. And so we talk about kind of the how you kind of manage that piece of it. So it's, it's honestly learning how to work better with people from a place of your strengths and using them in a way that benefits you and the other people that you work with. **Michael Hingson ** 43:48 So how did you determine what your strengths were? **Christin Roberson ** 43:52 Yeah, well, I took the assessment. Yeah, took the assessment. And, you know, gave me my top five, I've taken all 34, which is always interesting, because you look at the bottom of the list, naturally. But my top five ended up being a relator, learner, achiever, developer and deliberative. And so then became kind of what what does this all mean, and how does it impact my work? A lot of my work with clients now, especially in the business is around value alignment. That's the framework that I've kind of created. And I look at strengths as values. So for example relator is used is generally about kind of close relationships, folks that are relators generally haven't had people in their life that have been there forever. You've had the same friend since kindergarten. I don't because I moved around all the time. I knew who I am. But most of the people in my life had been there for a very long time. So I really value close relationships, community like that I can be connected to. So it taught me a lot about a lot about those things. And it helped me actually figure out even job wise, like, if I'm going to work somewhere, I want to work somewhere where I can actually build community, and be connected to other individuals who enjoy what they're doing. I don't want to work in like a singular space where it's me and only me. And I don't have a chance to interact with anybody, I actually want to build community. So yeah. **Michael Hingson ** 45:33 So how do you feel you use your five key strings to help support people in building their personal and professional worlds? **Christin Roberson ** 45:42 Yeah. So it also starts with that relator piece, the one on one, because that's most of the coaching that I do now is one on one versus group. And so it centers around kind of building the relationship and building that place of trust. Because a lot of times people will tell you, you know, some deeply personal things that relate to work or their personal life, because your personal life doesn't sit at the door, when you go to work, it comes with you and affects your work. And so, you know, we end up kind of talking about, you know, what is it that you, you know, why did you even want to come to coaching, why is this important to you? What do you want to get out of it? But a lot of the questions that I kind of end up asking are kind of from that learner perspective. So it's the building of the relationship through the learning about the other person. And really kind of getting to the heart of of who they are, and what they're really looking to do. Because some of them have maybe never asked been asked that question or haven't thought about it in a long time. Because, you know, I've done the same job forever, I never thought that there'd be other options. So those two work pretty pretty instinct. achiever is generally focused around productivity, that's more of a, I call it an internal strength, there's like, internal things that are more so for you versus external, that are for other people like responsibility that she was really focused on other people. So for me, it's the constant need to kind of stay busy. And to always be learning and doing new things. And feeling like I'm being productive in the help that I'm giving other people like I'm doing things that are going to help them be successful. developer is probably the biggest one because it's around potential. And so seeing the potential in people, places and things. And so that's a lot of the work, that's probably the most utilized strength, because people really don't always can always see some of the things that everybody else knows about them. And being a stranger than I generally am to a lot of people. And, you know, after a couple of conversations, you look at their resume, gather some information. And you just start saying some of these things. They're like, yeah, yeah, that is me. Yeah, I never, you know, I never thought about that. Yeah, so being able to just point out the potential that people have to do something different, or differently, I'll say, has been huge. Yeah. Well, so there's a fifth one. Oh. Last one is just deliberative. And that's generally circled around decision making. So it's a lot of pros and cons, which is a lot of what I do with clients, where the pros and cons, okay, if you stay at your job another year, if you do something as like a side role if you decide to leave, and just trying to help them make the best decision possible. **Michael Hingson ** 48:40 What are some of the common challenges and misconceptions that people have about their own strengths? **Christin Roberson ** 48:47 Yeah, one, they don't always feel like they have them. The things that they do so naturally, they never really thought of as strength. So I always use kind of the example around like math. And I'll do like our raise your hand if you really love math. And it came very easy to you, you know, in school, and you know, you know, there'll be a couple of people that I raised their hands. And then who else who struggled with math, and you never liked it, and that was me raising my hand as well. And, you know, when you talk to both groups, you kind of get a sense of, you know, oh, well, this particular I didn't think that was a strength. I just like numbers. And it's like, that's, that's a strength of yours. That's an ability to be probably analytical. One of the strengths and you maybe just never thought of it that way, but that's maybe how your brain functions. So if you are approaching, you know, a problem, you might do it from an analytical perspective versus something that's more around well, how are the people versus someone who's going to ask like, can I see, you know, the strategic plan for the company that would give me the insight that I kind of want a little bit more. And so I think a lot of People don't consider the things they do naturally strengths. I think that they, when they get their top five, they kind of feel like, Oh, well, I, I kind of stink. They're only in one leadership area. And so I had a friend and all hers were in, like the relationship development leadership domain. And she was like, well, this stinks. And I said, No, it doesn't. You, you are the heart of this team, you can always tell me what's going on with everybody. I don't always see it, because I'm rushing, and I'm doing supervisory things. And I might miss it. But she will be the one to be like, Kristin, you really need to check in with so and so because they're going through this. She was the heart and I really had to talk to her about seeing that, you know, as a strength. But also not feeling like just because you don't have one in every leadership domain doesn't mean like you're, you're not okay, or that you won't do well, it simply means that your strengths are very concentrated in one area. And it's something that you do well. So those are probably the two, I think biggest ones or challenges kind of help people see and kind of get through. Do **Michael Hingson ** 51:06 you encourage people to take time at the end of the day, or at some time during the day just stop and chill and maybe do a little bit of introspection, and so on and to think about what's going on in their lives? Because we're so much on the go all the time, as we've talked about so often already on this episode. **Christin Roberson ** 51:25 Yeah. And I think that's kind of what happens in a lot of my conversations with them is that kind of what we ended up doing, they started thinking about things that they had never really, you know, considered before, or, Oh, okay, that's, oh, it's a lot of the Oh, the AHA lightbulb moment of them figuring out that's why I do that particular thing, or that's maybe why I'm struggling with this job so much is because it's actually not aligned with my strengths and the things that I really value. And so there's a lot of those little lightbulb moments that happen, or we're just really able to make some connections between their strengths. And the areas where they are doing well in the areas where they are experiencing challenges. I generally tend to think the areas where we're experiencing challenges, it could be for a number of reasons. But a lot of times, I think it's around the fact that it may be out of sync with our strengths, which is one of the things that I did in my pivoting is I started, I looked at my strengths and kind of did a bit of an assessment. And I said, you know, how, how often do I actually get to use my strengths in my job. And it was very low. And there was maybe one that I use all the time, which was productivity, because it was about kind of getting work out very quickly. But I wasn't learning anything new. I wasn't building community, I wasn't really able to make decisions they were made for me. Yeah, and it was like, Okay, I think it's time to think about this in a different way, or to figure something else out. Because this is not in alignment with who I am or what I want. And we **Michael Hingson ** 53:01 get so much in the habit of just going one way and doing whatever it is we're doing that we don't tend to look at going about what's going on. And is this really what I want. And our brain is usually our heart is usually telling us, maybe there's an issue here. And it becomes a process of learning to listen to that. And then going back and stepping back to see what's really happening. **Christin Roberson ** 53:27 And oftentimes, as it was for me, and a lot of other people that I know, maybe didn't realize it, but it was showing up physically where I was, I had migraines way more often I was getting sick, you know a lot more often, like there were physical ailments that I was experiencing that were in response to the strength or the stress I was experiencing. And even, you know, depression, anxiety was happening. And I'm like, I don't know what's going on. And I had to take a look what's working in my life that I love. And where am I seeing like the most, you know, the more difficult difficulty in trying to manage it. And it always came back to my job. So it wasn't that I didn't like to work with the particular environment. And what I was tasked to do became more difficult by the day that it was showing up as a physical ailment. And this hadn't been the first time that I had experienced it. And I had heard it from many other people who had also left higher ed, who experienced the same thing. And they're like, I don't know if I'm going to make it another year and not have be found in my chair and had a heart attack or something, you know, because of the weight of the stress of what you're trying to do. And so I would rather people figure it out through coaching than being in the hospital. Yeah. **Michael Hingson ** 54:42 What's up being a sales guy loving stories? Do you have a story of one particular time that maybe you really had a great success that helping people understand their strengths and how they were able to use that to improve and enhance **Christin Roberson ** 54:57 Yeah, When I first started the business, I wasn't charging anything, I was just asking for LinkedIn recommendations. And there was a group of about five individuals that I was working with at the time, they all worked in higher education, they had been doing it for a long time. Some of them had chord experiences and the way that they were being treated, and being able to kind of talk them through what they were experiencing was, first, it was phenomenal, because it was an opportunity for people to connect with someone who understood the field, what they were going through, you didn't have to explain you know, acronyms, or what this thing was, I already knew. And so I love that they enjoy connecting with someone who knew. And so with one particular individual, like, we would have extensive conversations about her experiences, but also at what she was good at. And we worked together for quite a few months, along with all the other individuals. But one of the things that I always deem is success is not just that they find a job, it's like they're thriving in that job. So the conversation and the coaching became something that was like, excellent, because I could see the results of it, I could see the result of it, and it's what they wanted. And now they were living a life where there you can see them going on vacation, you see them going to a conference, and they're happy. And I check in with them, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, you look like you're having a great time works going well. And they'll they'll let me know. And so I don't always get to see that. But a lot of times I do. And so for me, those moments are always key and seeing people happy, thriving and enjoying themselves. And knowing that there were other options, because many of them were like, I'm never going to get off this field, which is how I felt I don't have any options, especially having a terminal degree, like me and so many others had where it was not my intention to leave the field with a doctorate in higher education, that's an investment you make that you're going to stay in the industry. So talking to other individuals who felt the same way with their degrees, and giving them hope, was just paramount to what I always deemed as success was the hope that you felt them staying at the end of the call I oh my gosh, Chris, I feel so much better about this. Okay, I think about this differently now. So it's hard to pinpoint specific examples. But it's more so kind of the moments of aha of happiness and seeing the end result of the coaching and how they have progressed afterwards. **Michael Hingson ** 57:39 I had always planned on going into teaching when I got a bachelor's and a master's degree. But then things changed. And what I discovered, which I think is a pretty important thing is that, although I didn't go into formal teaching, in fact, mostly what I do is teach and in fact that the training I got in the the world of science, and attitudes and philosophies are tools that I can use wherever I go in whatever I do. So I I would not regret my time in physics at all. **Christin Roberson ** 58:17 I agree, it's taken me some time to kind of get over that mostly looking at my student loan balances. Sometimes they're like, my gosh, maybe we should go back and make it work. But when I remember what that life was like, and that yes, I have this degree, but ultimately, this degree led me to be know about strengths. And to be certified and to meet, you know, other people who are interested in it and folks that I've now known forever, then yeah, it was worth it. It's tough sometimes, because there's still some moments where I think about it, but it's never that I can't go back. I'll say that. And I always remind myself, I can always be an adjunct instructor or go and do something else. This may not be forever. But it definitely is what I want to do now and for as long as I possibly can. **Michael Hingson ** 59:00 So, you know, you pivoted, you went from one kind of career in a sense to another, although I'm not sure that totally they're different, the environments different, but what you're doing to a great degree is the same. What kind of advice would you give to other people who may be thinking about or who ought to think about looking at an alternative to what they're doing today? **Christin Roberson ** 59:22 Yeah. And I'm totally not sponsored by Simon Sinek. But start with why. I, that is one of the one of like five books I recommend that people who are thinking about it is to start with why that's probably the most important book to me outside of pivot by Jenny Blake. And it's basically starting with Why do you want to do this? Why do you feel like you need to do this? And there's not any right or wrong answers. A lot of mine were Yeah, I want to be happy. I want to be fulfilled. I'd also like to buy a house someday and I can't do that. On my salary, I can't pay off the debt, you know, from student loans on this salary can't necessarily live the way that I want to. And I, I had hoped, with the investment that I made in my, you know, particular education. And so a lot of that is just asking, why not just why you want to do coaching? Or why are you thinking about changing fields? I think beyond that, it's also just like, doing doing the research into the job. You know, the thing about strengths is, a lot of people may fit like they have a strength in a particular area. But it's maybe not. And we have people in our lives that are probably working in profession where you're like, that's probably not the best route for you. You're, you're, you have strengths in other areas that this, isn't it. And so being able to kind of do the work, or kind of, you know, what I call it as the skills gap, you know, what am I missing? So doing the research, discovering what actually are my skills, not just my top five strengths that are a great foundation, a great place to start, but like, what else am I like, really good at? How do I, you know, extend this, but starting with just the reason why unpacks a lot, because a lot of in the even in my unpacking was like, Oh, my gosh, I've been terribly unhappy for the past five years, working in the field, I really haven't been able to do the work that I want to, I'm always working, I've missed things, because I'm always working. So it wasn't just, you know, I'm not using my why was yes, you know, I'm not using my strengths. But also, there were basic foundational things

Welcome back to The Hormone Prescription Podcast - the go-to show for midlife women looking for expert insights on health. In this episode, we have the pleasure of welcoming Dr. Jennifer Simmons, a prominent board-certified breast surgeon with over fifteen years of experience in the field of breast disease.    Dr. Simmons has an impressive list of awards and achievements, including receiving the prestigious 2016 Founders Award from the Living Beyond Breast Cancer organization, and being named TOP DOC for six consecutive years by Philadelphia Magazine, Main Line Today 2018, and Suburban Life. With her expertise, she has been a frequent on-camera guest, sharing breaking medical breast cancer news on popular platforms such as 6ABC, CBS Philly, Fox 29 Good Day, and KYW News Radio.    In this insightful conversation, Dr. Jennifer Simmons shares her professional knowledge and invaluable advice on understanding and dealing with breast cancer. Key discussion points in this episode: - Understanding breast cancer: Dr. Simmons helps us grasp the basics of breast cancer, its types, and its stages. - Risk factors: The different factors that could contribute to an increased risk of developing breast cancer, and what we can do to mitigate these risks. - Early detection strategies: The significance of self-examinations, mammograms, and regular check-ups with healthcare professionals, as well as new technologies that can potentially help in early detection. - Treatment options: An overview of different treatment pathways available depending on the type and stage of breast cancer, including surgery, radiation therapy, chemotherapy, and targeted therapy. - Support systems: The importance of nurturing a strong support system during the cancer journey, including support from friends, family, and healthcare professionals. Dr. Simmons also highlights invaluable resources like the Living Beyond Breast Cancer organization. - Practical advice: Dr. Simmons shares her top tips for women going through a breast cancer diagnosis, treatment, and recovery. - Advancements in the field: A peek into current research and advancements that could potentially change the face of breast cancer treatment and prevention in the near future.    Get ready for an eye-opening and informative conversation with Dr. Jennifer Simmons, and don't forget to subscribe to The Hormone Prescription Podcast for more expert insights on health for midlife women.   Speaker 1 (00:00): There is no greater perspective than when you lose your health. The only person who can heal you is you, Dr. Jen Simmons. Speaker 2 (00:10): So the big question is, how do women over 40 like us, keep weight off, have great energy, balance our hormones and our moods, feel sexy and confident, and master midlife? If you're like most of us, you are not getting the answers you need and remain confused and pretty hopeless to ever feel like yourself Again. As an OB G Y N, I had to discover for myself the truth about what creates a rock solid metabolism, lasting weight loss, and supercharged energy after 40, in order to lose a hundred pounds and fix my fatigue, now I'm on a mission. This podcast is designed to share the natural tools you need for impactful results and to give you clarity on the answers to your midlife metabolism challenges. Join me for tangible, natural strategies to crush the hormone imbalances you are facing and help you get unstuck from the sidelines of life. My name is Dr. Kieran Dunton. Welcome to the Hormone Prescription Podcast. Speaker 1 (01:03): Hi everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Hormone Prescription with Dr. Kieran. Thank you so much for joining me today. My guest today, Dr. Jennifer Simmons, is an amazing woman and physician who has accomplished much and really is leading the way to show women how to prevent breast cancer and how to heal their bodies overall. But most of us really don't pay attention. There is no greater perspective than when you lose your health. She says during our interview, and you'll see what else she says about that, but it really does put things in perspective because our health is the only reason that we get time on this earth. Time to enjoy our relationships, time to accomplish things, time to enjoy sunsets and the ocean and the mountains. And so if we're not paying attention to our health and doing everything that we can to make it the best, we're really in a state of dying. Speaker 1 (02:04): If you think about it, and I know that's pretty sobering and most of us don't like to think about it, but I actually like to keep my eye on the fact that I am going to die because it helps me to live each day to the fullest. And how could changing your perspective before you get an illness lead you to more health and wholeness is something I'd like you to start thinking about. The other quote she offered, the only person who can heal you is you, is so profound because a lot of us are always looking to someone else to heal us or fix us, but really the healing comes from within. So we have a very deep personal discussion about that as well. I'll tell you a little bit more about Dr. Jen Simmons and then we'll get started. She had an amazing career. Speaker 1 (02:52): So she's a prominent board certified breast surgeon in Philadelphia. She was the chief of breast surgery and director of the breast program at Einstein Medical Center, Montgomery, and she has had 15 years of experience in the field of breast disease. She received the 2016 top Honors Founders Award from the Living Beyond Breast Cancer Organization for improving the lives of women with breast cancer. She's always on the forefront of medical advances in breast surgery. She's been named Top Doc six years in a row by Philadelphia Magazine and also in mainline today, 2018 and Suburban Life. She's been on many news shows, many podcasts, many summits, and share her brilliance everywhere. And after her very personal and touching story that she shares in the interview view that you don't wanna hear, excuse me, you don't wanna miss hearing. She shares how she transitioned from being the top breast surgeon and taking care of women with breast cancer after they were diagnosed to taking care of women in a way that helps them prevent breast cancer and also heal holistically from breast cancer. Speaker 1 (04:10): She has some views that are very radical that you might be shocked by that I love and embrace because she is a truth seeker and a truth teller. And when it comes to healing yourself, not only from breast cancer, but all the melodies that we suffer from at midlife, midlife, metabolic mayhem, other diseases, and premature death when we're in hormonal poverty, you gotta get to the truth. And sometimes truth is painful, but if you don't tell the truth, you can't know the truth and you can't know what you need to do to heal. And then healing becomes impossible. And that's where so many women are right now. They're blind to the truth. So I'm a true seeker truth teller. Dr. Jen is a true seeker truth teller. And if you really want to know what's possible for you in this lifetime and achieve it, you've got to become a truth seeker and a truth knower. Speaker 1 (05:06): So now she has a practice Real Health md. She is the doctor with the answer to breast cancer. We give all the places you can find her online on social media and talk about her book as well. So without further ado, please help me welcome Dr. Jen Simmons to the show. Thanks. I'm so glad to be here. So breast cancer is a hot topic with women. I deal with women in their hormones, and the number one objection that people have about the hormones that they need a prescription for is, oh, but my doctor told me estrogen causes cancer. And so this is really in your ballpark. So I think we should start with the hard questions first, , does estrogen cause breast cancer? Let's start right there. Let's just dive right in. So of course it doesn't cause breast cancer. Speaker 3 (05:57): I mean, it's such a ridiculous notion that it, I mean, just thinking about it from the logical standpoints, right? So first of all, why would God give us a hormone that is so vital to life that causes breast cancer? I mean, it's absurd. And then when we look at who gets breast cancer, the vast majority of breast cancers are in the postmenopausal population. And when you measure hormone levels in that population, they are completely deplete, right? They have no virtually no circulating estrogen. And so to say that estrogen causes breast cancer is absurd. It's ridiculous. And they're all evidence to the contrary. In fact, it's when estrogen is going away, that is the issue. When your body can't access its own estrogen because your ovaries are shutting down, that's when breast cancer becomes an issue. Now, when I say estrogen does not cause breast cancer, I am talking about the estrogen that is produced by your ovaries, produced by your adrenal glands. Speaker 3 (07:05): That is not the issue. However, there are environmental estrogens things in our environment that act like estrogen that are very toxic, that without question cause cellular damage, d n a damage and lead to breast cancers. So I'm talking about things like plastics, like antibiotics, like fragrance, like cleaning solutions, like phthalates, all these synthetic things that are in our environment on the estrogen receptor, but don't act like estrogen. They act in a far more stimulatory, irreversible way. And then they also have to be broken down by our hormone detoxification ways. And when that happens, they go preferentially down a toxic pathway because they're toxins. So I am very comfortable saying estrogen does not cause breast cancer. Do estrogen-like substances contribute to breast cancer? Absolutely. Without question. Yes. Speaker 1 (08:13): And I say I, I'm always a kind of common sense doctor, and I say reality check. 'cause That makes sense to you. Every man, woman, and child on the face of this planet has estrogen, , and if estrogen caused breast cancer, we'd all have it. Speaker 3 (08:29): That's exactly right. That's exactly right. It's an absurd notion. Now, I can tell you that the reason that we talk about estrogen and breast cancer and a causative relationship is because we have synthetic medicines. We have pharmaceuticals that block the synthe, the synthetic pathway, like they block the synthesis, the the creation of estrogen. And we have pharmaceuticals that act on the estrogen receptor. So the reason that we use that explanation estrogen causes breast cancer is for the purposes of utilizing these drugs, but not because estrogen causes breast cancer. Again, it doesn't, it's absurd. But they have pharmaceuticals that can intervene in this pathway. And so they use that explanation in order to use the drugs. Speaker 1 (09:22): Oh, well that, I hadn't heard that concept. That's interesting. Yeah. So Speaker 3 (09:27): The estrogen Speaker 1 (09:28): Blockers, Speaker 3 (09:29): You'll, you'll notice, you'll notice like the vast majority of breast cancers have both estrogen and progesterone receptors on them. But we never talk about the progesterone part, right? You never hear progesterone causes breast cancer and you don't hear about drugs because we don't have them. So now we just focus on the estrogen because we have estrogen blocking drugs that are a nightmare. And so that's the story that people are told over and over and over again. And when you are told the same story over and over and over again, despite whether or not it's true, it becomes believable because it's repeatable. And that's exactly what happened in this case. And you know, we've seen that evidenced time and time again, especially over the last three years. Speaker 1 (10:15): It's fascinating. I mean, the more you know about big pharma and medicine, the deeper the do-do gets. That's really fascinating. And so I know they really revised the, the Women's Health Initiative study results, and they've come back and said, no, estrogen is protective against breast cancer. But nobody's listening. No, doctors are listening. They're not telling their patients this. So you're right. Once you repeat a lie so many times it does become the gospel. Yeah. Speaker 3 (10:42): And so doctors unfortunately, are hard to convince. They, you have to remember that the Women's Health Initiative, those results, those preliminary results, which should have never been released, you don't release the sto the results of a study in a newspaper article. But those results should have never, ever, ever been released. But they were, and it was 20 years ago. So for 20 years we've heard this false narrative. So it's really, really hard for people to unring that bell. And there are pieces of that puzzle that fit and make sense to people. So for instance, you know, you're only given estrogen blockade if you have a hormone positive tumor. And so people associate the fact that there, there are breast cancers with estrogen receptors on them, so therefore estrogen must be causative. And what people don't realize is that normal breast cells have estrogen receptors on them. They're supposed to have estrogen receptors on them. That's how the breast does what it's supposed to do, do, because it responds to normal stimulation by estrogen, normal signaling by estrogen. And in fact, it's the breast cancers that don't have estrogen receptors on them that are far more aggressive and far more difficult to treat and reverse because they are a further departure from normal. So a hormone positive tumor resembles the normal tissue and the further the cancer gets away from resembling the normal tissue, the more aggressive a process it is. Speaker 1 (12:28): Yeah, I think that there's so much misinformation, and I think that even regular gynecologists and general practitioners aren't aware of this. So they're counseling people incorrectly. You know, I know you, you gave me some great questions, but I had to go for the hardest one first because I really wanted to make sure we cover that. And I know that a lot of women coming to listening listen to you. That's what they wanna hear. But the basics, let's start with, what is breast cancer? Speaker 3 (12:55): Yeah, so that's a great question which so many people don't understand. So I, I wanna start off by saying that breast cancer is a normal response to an abnormal environment. So many people think that breast cancer is separate, right? It's a non-self, it's not a part of you. It is a foreign body, a foreign invader, a foreign thing. But the truth is that your breast cancer is a part of you, and it's the part of you that feels threatened by its environment. People with breast cancer don't have a bad breast. Breast cancer is a systemic disease. It means that there has been some systemic shift. The chemistry in the breast, the environment in the body has shifted away from homeostasis. And when that happens, the breast cells feel threatened. And so what does anything do when it feels threatened? It goes into survival mode, right? Speaker 3 (13:54): Think about an animal that's cornered. How is that animal gonna behave? It's gonna be extremely aggressive, it's gonna be ferocious, right? It's just trying to survive. That same process is happening in any organ that undergoes a cancerous transformation. It is responding to a hostile environment, and it is transforming into survival mode. So the key to breast cancer, the key to any cancer is to restoring the health of the environment, both the microenvironment and the environment in the breast or whatever organ you're talking about. But the microenvironment of the breast is influenced by the macro, the overall environment of the body. And so healing from breast cancer is about transforming that environment, getting back into homeostasis, getting rid of the threat so that those cells feel safe again, and no longer have to be in survival mode. So again, breast cancer is just a normal response to an abnormal environment. And the only approach is to restore health. Speaker 1 (15:00): And in mainstream medicine, is that addressed at all, or it's still surgery, chemotherapy, radiation level. Speaker 3 (15:10): Yeah, so it's conventional medicine. All the focus is on disease, right? Because that's what conventional medical doctors are taught. Nowhere in any part of my training, and I went to medical school for four years, I did residency for five years. I did fellowship for a year. And nowhere anywhere in my training was I taught how to make people, how to help people get healthy. We are trained to recognize a constellation of symptoms, give it a title, right? Diagnose and then prescribe, prescribe a pill, prescribe a procedure. That is what we are trained to do. And nowhere along those lines are we asking the important question. The important question for everyone has to be, where is the disease coming from? What is driving this disease? And the key to reversing it is about learning that understanding that eliminating whatever is driving disease and at the same time doing the things that drive health. Speaker 3 (16:13): And when all you focus on is disease, right? Like think about the mainstream response to breast cancer, like you're in for a fight. Get ready for a fight, be a fighter, keep fighting. That whole mentality is wrong. And what I advocate for, because you don't wanna fight, you don't want a war, you don't want the chemistry of stress. Think about what wars are filled with, they're filled with, with violence and fear. That's the last thing that you want in your body. You want to prepare for peace. That is what you're seeking. That is what you're looking to create. And with that comes homeostasis and health. And so it's about shifting the focus from illness, from disease, from the tumor, shifting the focus to health and to building health. Because if all you focus on is the tumor, you're focusing in the wrong area. Because first of all, what we focus on grows. And that's the last thing we want to grow. The tumor is not the problem. The tumor is the symptom of the problem. And until we realize that, until we recognize that we will never solve it. Speaker 1 (17:29): Yeah. I say exactly the same thing about weight. The excess fat is not the problem, it's the symptom of the problem. That's Speaker 3 (17:37): Exactly right. And Speaker 1 (17:38): And what you mentioned about peace and healing, I, I so agree with you. And I don't know if, if we can get into kind of the energetics of it, but the, the breasts relate to the heart chakra and love. Speaker 3 (17:52): Of course. Of course. And this is why we so often see a breast cancer diagnosis following heartache. So if you talk to someone who was diagnosed with breast cancer, you are almost certainly going to learn that they've had a death in the family, or they're caring for a sick patient or a sick parent or child, god forbid, or they've been through a divorce or had a move or lost their job. But there is going to be, or they've, you know, undergone trauma abuse. There is going to be heartache and heartbreak in the preceding years to the diagnosis. It happens nearly 100% of the time. Yeah. Speaker 1 (18:34): And so we need to be, I mean, medicine should be tending to our hearts and our energy, but I guess those doctors like us who went through the mainstream training and learned that method and then were enlightened to realize that it's way bigger than that can help people with that. So that's why I'm so glad to have you on the show and offer and share what, you know, it's so important for women about breast cancer. Now, we just got done talking about that estrogen doesn't cause breast cancer. But do we need to talk about why younger women are more and more getting breast cancer diagnosis and its relation to estrogen dominance? Speaker 3 (19:17): Yeah. So let's talk about what that is and what that means. Mm-Hmm. , because when we talk about estrogen dominance, what we're not mentioning there is a lack of progesterone. And that is what is happening most of the time, is that our estrogen balance is entirely dependent on our progesterone balance. And progesterone is one of those very sensitive hormones. And if you are under a considerable amount of stress, then the overall chemical in your makeup is going to be cortisol stress hormone. And we're going to make cortisol at the expense of making progesterone. And so all of a sudden, all else being equal and your estrogen levels are what they are. But if you drop progesterone, now suddenly you're estrogen dominant. Right? Does that make sense? Speaker 1 (20:15): Absolutely. Speaker 3 (20:16): And so for so many women, we're having that progesterone drop off earlier and earlier and earlier. And so that is one problem, right? And that is because of the way we live our lives, the stressful environments, the lack of self-care, the lack of prioritization of sleep, the lack of a nourishing diet. And I'm not just talking about food because there are, you know, secondary foods, the things that you put in your, in your mouth. More important, there are primary foods, the things that nourish you, like sunshine and relaxation and connection, and all of these things that are so essential to life that we are skipping over. We are skipping over for busyness, for blue light, for over consumption. We're just skipping over the things that nourish us. And as a result, we lower our progesterone levels, raise our cortisol levels, and then we're in this estrogen dominant can position. Speaker 3 (21:21): In addition to that, we talked a little bit before about xenoestrogens. These are environmental estrogens. These are things that we are literally swimming in. We are swimming in a soup of environmental estrogens. Not what is made by our ovaries, not what is made by our adrenal glands, but what is what we are coming into contact with day in and day out that acts like this toxic estrogen in our body. And it's only compounding the problem on top of, you know, our relative progesterone paucity. And so this becomes a big issue. And these xenoestrogens directly damage D n A, they can directly cause answers to form. Everyone makes cancer cells young, old, and everyone in between. And the key to not getting cancer in that, the key to not having it reach mass size is to have an intact immune system. Mm-Hmm. . So an intact immune system will recognize those cancer cells in their infancy and destroy them. Speaker 3 (22:29): But unfortunately, so many of us are walking around relatively immunocompromised because the things that distract your immune system, the things that weaken your immune system are so prevalent and no one's talking about them, right? So Right. Just one night of poor sleep will weaken your immunity just one night. So if you making cancer cells every day and you are having prolonged lack of sleep, that's a recipe for breast cancer. And we know that. We know that people who are poor sleepers, chronic short sleepers, they are at increased risk for a variety of chronic diseases, including cancer. And so it's the environmental influence and the reason that, which is the reason why we are seeing cancer younger and younger and younger, because we're getting further and further away from our evolutionary selves. We are modern beings living on a very old gene code. We only know safety or fight and flight. Speaker 3 (23:34): And we are not meant to be in fight or flight for more than a few seconds. Right? We are built for coming out of the cave in the morning, encountering the Saber two tiger, and either being able to escape within seconds and being restored to normal physiology or dying. But we are not built to run away from a saber two tiger for three hours, three days, three white weeks, three months, three years. We're not built for it. And yet our world is filled with saber-tooth tigers filled with things that compromise our immunity. Because when you're running away from a saber tooth tiger, you don't need to fight off a cold. So your immune system gets shut off. But if you are constantly running away from saber two tigers, there's no opportunity for your immune system to come back online. And that is a really, really important part of disease reversal, is getting the immune system to come back online. Speaker 3 (24:33): And the way that you do that is you build all these foundations of health, you prioritize sleep, you cut out processed foods, you make sure that you have joyful movement, you live a connected life and you eliminate toxins. And you manage the stressors of life as best you can. You're never gonna be able to get rid of all the stress, but it's not the stress that matters, it's how you internalize the stress that matters. And so having healthy ways to manage the stressors of life only way, the only way to reverse disease and to be healthy, to get your immune system to come back online and so that you can function the way that you are supposed to function the way that you wanna Speaker 1 (25:19): Function. Yes, absolutely. And I just wanna comment on something you shared about the estrogen progesterone balance. Right before, when I was preparing for our interview on my phone, I get these news alerts and popped up an article that said, younger women are getting exorbitant amounts of breast cancer or something like that. And doctors don't know why. And you know, I remember a few weeks ago there was one about the side effects from taking statin drugs and low energy. And doctors are confused as to why. And I'm thinking, well, mainstream doctors are confused about these things. These, but who have, you know, a functional metabolic perspective or not confused, this is science, this is how the body works. Speaker 3 (26:04): So yeah. See the problem is there are tons of prescribers that are prescribing that have no idea what they're prescribing, what what it does, right? Like anyone who prescribes a statin should know that if you're gonna take away cholesterol, which is the base molecule of life, it is the molecule from which we build all our hormones, we build all our neurotransmitters. So if you're gonna take that away and take away your hormones and your neurotransmitters, what do you expect to happen? Nothing good, right? Right. And yet statins are so readily prescribed, they don't lower anyone's risk of getting heart disease. They don't lower the risk of a heart attack, increase the risk of diabetes by 63%. So what are we doing? Right? and people like you and I, all we do is shake our heads that people are surprised by this. When if they just spent, you know, 10 minutes understanding the physiology of the drug, they would stop that. Speaker 1 (27:05): Yeah. And, but it's interesting because some patients, I, a woman comes to mind I met with a few weeks ago, and her doctor wanted to check her cholesterol of course, and put her on a statin. And it's really not even high. And I explained all this to her and the kind of what she was looking forward to in terms of her decreased at t p production and hormones. And she said, well, that's okay. I'm still gonna take it . Yeah. Speaker 3 (27:31): Yeah. So the one like thing that the cardiologists hang onto is that statins do have a short-term anti-inflammatory effect. But I mean, you can do so much better, right? Like you can use turmeric, ginger, there are so many other ways to get those anti-inflammatory effects than a statin, which is going to deplete your coenzyme q deplete your hormones, deplete your neurotransmitters, and make you even more susceptible to diabetes while not, while not impacting your coronary disease risk. So I think when people it, it is going to take a lot of reeducation, right? Because again, this statin story is another one that's been around for a long time. And when people hear the same thing enough times, they believe it to be true. I think we would be remiss if we didn't talk about the fact that, you know, we are going to see younger and younger breast cancers, just like we're going to see infertility because we bury widely used a, let's call it a drug that seriously affected people's immune system. And Oh yeah. And we're, we're gonna see the ramifications of that over the next, at least 10 years. It could be two generations, but we're gonna see it at least over one generation. We're gonna see infertility, we're gonna see cancers. Because you can't hijack the immune system without having repercussions. You can't, you can't. Speaker 1 (29:13): Yeah. It's, it's unfortunate and mm-hmm and it is a fact. And I've actually encountered quite a few people who have all kinds of repercussions from that medication. Yeah. Speaker 3 (29:24): I'm seeing the, you know, six months later breast cancer diagnoses. So, and what's happening there, because you know, breast cancer's a long road, breast cancers don't develop in six months. But what happens is that because we're all making cancer cells all day, every day, an immune, an intact immune system will keep that at bay. But when you take the immune system out of it, a process which was maybe just like slowly chugging along and wasn't going to really do anything now is existing unchecked. And it's when we pull the immune system out of the picture, when we take away its ability to do its job that we see all of these disease states propping up. And breast cancer is a big one. It Speaker 1 (30:10): Is. And I know some women listening are thinking, oh, you know, have the recommendations for screening changed? So I'm wondering if we can talk about that. Mm-Hmm your thoughts on mammography, thermography and some of the o other, other technologies available. Yeah, absolutely. And absolutely. Have you changed any recommendations that you give your patients about screening? Speaker 3 (30:32): Yeah, absolutely. So first let's talk about the mammographic screening program because what we have today was never trialed, was never tested. It was grandfathered in. It was grandfathered in based on the studies that were done in the 1970s, the safety studies in the 1970s when we were using two D mammograms. And you know, at that time the thought was that breast cancer started small, grew to some critical mass, at which time it would become more likely to metastasize. And so if we could screen and find these cancers before they reached a critical mass, we could save lives. And it is a lovely theory, lovely, just doesn't happen to be true because breast cancer growth is neither predictable nor linear. So a breast cancer is what it is from the very start. And if it's going to be aggressive, it's going to be aggressive from the very start. Speaker 3 (31:36): And if it's not going to be aggressive, it's not going to be aggressive. So no matter how big those non-aggressive tumors get, those people are going to do fine almost no matter what you do. And the people with aggressive cancers, no matter how small you find them, those people are not going to be fine almost no matter what you do. And then there's everyone in between. And the mammographic screening programs around the world, many of them have been abandoned. And what we see in this country is a huge push for mammography does not save lives. It earns a lot of money. It earns an an enormous amount of money for the system, but it does not save lives. In fact, when we look at a woman over her lifetime, for every 10,000 women that you screen, you will maybe save one woman's life and you will cause breast cancers in seven of them. Speaker 3 (32:32): So we're gonna cause seven times more breast cancers than lives we save. And no matter how many women we screen every year, no matter how many women, the exact same number of women die of breast cancer, 43,000 women will die of breast cancer every single year, no matter how many women we screen. So we are not doing better. Screening does not save lives. That is a bell. That's a 50 year long bell. And people are convinced that mammogram is saving their life. So I want to be clear, mammogram is not saving your life. It is ionizing radiation. It is traumatic, it is definitely causing damage. The more mammograms you get, the more damage there's going to be. So there is no benefit from my perspective in using mammogram to screen. If you wanna use it to, for diagnostic purposes, if you feel something you need an an evaluation, fine. Speaker 3 (33:28): Take 100 milligrams of melatonin and 2000 to 4,000 milligrams of vitamin C, liposomal vitamin C one hour before your study. And that goes for any radiographic study, an X-ray, a mammogram, a CAT scan, a PET scan, a bone scan, a DEXA scan, any radiation, ionizing radiation study, CAT scan. Did I say that? I hope so. Greening with mammogram is not gonna save anyone's life. And what it is going to do is identify a bunch of cancers that may never have become meaningful, clinically relevant. So a lot of women are going to get treated for breast cancer that don't need to get treated for breast cancer. And what's gonna happen to them, the vast majority of them are going to be hormone positive. They're gonna be put on hormone blockade. And we know that radiation, chemotherapy, hormone blockade, they all accelerate heart disease, which is by far the number one threat to a woman's life. Speaker 3 (34:28): In fact, every decade of a woman's life, after she's 30, she will die exponentially more of heart disease than breast cancer. We should be doing every single thing we can to protect the heart. And coincidentally, if you're doing that, those same things also prevent breast cancer. So I'm all about prevention. I don't think mammogram has any role. I do use thermography and I use thermography as an indicator. So if you have a thermogram that shows increased heat, then you know this is your kind of opportunity. This is your opportunity to make sure that your health is optimized. And I believe in self-exam, but all of this is going to be a moot point in the next year or two because there is an F D A approved screening modality called QT imaging. And this is novel. This is a novel imaging technique. It is not like anything else that's out there. There is no radiation. It is painless, it is fast, it is inexpensive and it has 40 times the resolution of M R I. And it is poised to not only replace M R I, but to replace mammogram for screening. It is already F D A approved to screen dense breasts and within a year it will be F D A approved to screen everyone. So it is really the solution that has been needed for so many years in terms of screening. Great. Speaker 1 (36:12): Thank you so much for talking about that. 'cause We get a lot of questions on that and I think it really helps to hear it from somebody with your credentials and experience. And you've got a great new thing coming, the QT screening, so we'll wanna know more about that when it's available. Yeah. But like you said, it's all about prevention and you talked a little bit about that with stress and sleep and proper diet and the nourishment that you get from connection and living a healthy life that isn't filled with stress. And you've got a wonderful freebie for everyone, a weekly checklist. Is there anything else you'd like to say about preventing breast cancer? Speaker 3 (36:56): Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, breast health is health and the things that you do to drive your overall health are the same things that are going to create healthy breast, create a healthy heart, create a healthy brain, create healthy bones, create healthy muscles, create a healthy gut. Like we are all one system working in concert. And if you, unless you pay attention to everything that makes up the symphony, you're not going to have the result that you want to have. And so it's all about the everything. And actually my book called A Smart Person's Guide to Breast Cancer was just released yesterday. And this is the place to go for the answers that you're looking for. Because I talk about prevention, I talk about what to do if you get a breast cancer diagnosis. I give you all the tools you need to understand not only the conventional modalities but also all the things that you can do for yourself. Again, the only person that can heal you is you. And health is not something that you can buy, you can't get it anywhere. You have to achieve it, you have to work for it. But in the end it's so worth it because when you have your health, that means that you are living a life worth living with. You are richly, richly rewarded for that. Speaker 1 (38:28): It's so true. And I always ask people, what's your most valuable asset? And people say, oh my house, usually my partner and I say, well you know, what about your health? And without your health, you don't have, you don't have a life. It's the only thing that gives you that dash on your tombstone is the time that you're here on this earth. And you, your health is of vital importance. So if you're not treating it like your most valued asset and something to invest time, energy, money in, then you're kind of missing the point. . Yeah. But I love what you said, the only person who can heal you is you. Yeah. I love Speaker 3 (39:06): That. I know you probably have your own pain to purpose story. I feel like most of us who have come to exist in this space have our own pain to purpose story. Mm-Hmm . And unfortunately my pain keeps popping up again and again and again to remind me to stay on track. But when you talk about valuing your health, I had a bout of vertigo about a week and a half ago, and it's really truly when you lose your health there, there is no greater perspective than when you lose your health. Because in that period of time you realize that there is nothing else, nothing else. When you are suffering, it is impossible to do anything else. Like you can't create, all you can do is feel and experience that pain and know that there is nothing more horrible than living in that state of pain. And you realize how valuable it is to not be that way, to not feel that way, to be able to be free to live. And I don't know why humans have to learn lessons the hard way, but we do . Speaker 1 (40:21): . I don't know why we do. And you know, I kind of skipped over that skipped 'cause you skipped, there's so much to cover with your topic that women wanna hear about. So I was, I guess kind of anxious to get it all in. But do you wanna share, I'd love for you to share a bit about your story. I think the more that women here, people like you and me sharing our pain to purpose stories, they say, wow, they pay attention. Yeah. And they really get it on a more personal level to start taking action. Speaker 3 (40:55): Yeah. I've seen the abyss more than once. You know, really, I'm in the breast cancer space very organically, so organic. Like many women, I come from a breast cancer family. And there was really never a time in my life where I didn't know about breast cancer. When I was growing up. I had a first cousin, her name was Linda Creed, and Linda was a singer songwriter in the 1970s and 1980. She wrote all the music for the spinners and the stylistics . She wrote 54 hits in all. And her most famous song was The Greatest Love of All. She wrote that song in 1977 as the title, title track to the movie, the Greatest starring Muhammad Ali. But it really received its acclaim in March of 1986 when Whitney Houston released that song to the world. And at that time it would spend 14 weeks at the top of the charts. Speaker 3 (41:47): Only Linda would never know because she died of metastatic breast cancer. Just one month after Whitney released the song. And I was 16 years old and my hero died. And so that no other woman, no other family, no other community had to grieve and feel this pain. And the way that my family felt this pain, I let her life and ultimately her death, give birth to my life's purpose. And I did the only thing I knew how to do. I became a doctor, I became a surgeon. I became the first fellowship trained breast surgeon in Philadelphia. And I did that really well. And for a really long time. And you know, during my tenure, my aunt was diagnosed, my mom was diagnosed, and all the while I just continued to live in that world and thought that I was truly making a contribution. And I'm running my practice and running the cancer program for my hospital, a wife and a mother and a stepmother and an athlete and a philanthropist. Speaker 3 (42:53): And I have all these balls in the air and I think I'm invincible until I'm not. And I go from probably being one of the most high functioning people that you ever knew to, I can't walk across the room, I just don't have the breath in my lungs to walk across the room. And I think I'm having a heart attack. And I go to the emergency room and I have an exhaustive three day workup. And at the end of that three days, I'm sitting in the office of my friend and colleague and physician and he tells me that I need to have surgery and chemoradiation and be on lifelong medication. And despite the fact that these are things that I say all day every day to people, when the words are coming at me, it's like I'm having an out-of-body experience. And I still to this day don't know why I walked away. Speaker 3 (43:44): You can call it God, you can call it universe. I just couldn't reconcile it when it was about me and my doctor told me I was gonna die. And it's not that I didn't believe him. I mean the I, I told thousands of women through my career that if they didn't get treatment for their cancer, they were gonna die. So it's not that I didn't believe him, but that something said to me that there was something else. And so I went on a journey to heal myself. And it was a selfish journey. Like this was never about solving the breast cancer problem. This was about solving my problem. And I was listening to a lecture, a man named Mark Hyman walked on the stage. This was 2017. I had never heard of him. His name meant nothing to me. And he came on stage and he introduced himself as a functional medicine physician. Speaker 3 (44:38): And at this point I had been a doctor for like 20 years. And I was super duper cynical despite the fact that I was going against medical advice, despite the fact that I was not accepting the standard of care. But I was still super cynical. And I thought like, what is this quack talking about? There's no such thing as functional medicine. And then I remembered that I was sick. And so I checked my ego at the door tuned in and thank God I did. Because within five minutes of him speaking my entire world makes sense. And I know exactly why I got sick. I got sick so that I could be in that room on that day in that chair listening to him speak. Because not only was I not on the right path for my health, but I wasn't on the right path for my patient's health. Speaker 3 (45:25): And if I really wanted to leave a legacy, if I really wanted to make the impact that I wanted to make, then I needed to reframe. Because like we talked about before, all of conventional medicine is focused on the tumor. And if you focus on the tumor, that's all that's growing. So my part in the breast cancer scenario was just perpetuating the same thing. I wasn't ever interfering with why people got cancer. All I was doing was cutting out tumors, leaving them to only go on to manifest the next disease. Because unless you intervene, unless you change why someone got cancer, they're only going to manifest the next disease or have a recurrence. And so it really took my own illness and you know, three years of my life to learn functional medicine and heal and, and prove it in myself so that I could go on to prove it in my patience. Speaker 3 (46:25): You know, that was my opportunity and I'm not gonna pretend that my healing was easy or linear is not. And there were plenty of days where I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna die 'cause this is too hard. And then I have an amazing husband and four beautiful children and a lot to live for. And so I pushed on and in the end I'm left with something a million times more rewarding. And I am on a mission to impact the lives of millions of women who would not have otherwise had this opportunity, the opportunity to be healthy. And if I can walk with them at any part on their journey and make a difference, that's what I wanna do. That's the legacy that I wanna leave. And I could have never, ever, ever had the opportunity as a surgeon and I would've never left surgery had it not been for my own health journey. Gosh. Speaker 1 (47:24): So such a, a beautiful and painful story. And you know, unfortunately it was pain that had to get me back on my path too. And like you said, so much better what you've gained, thank you so much for sharing that. I know that what you've shared has really spoken to women listening and I hope that they hear from what you're saying. I used to prescribe all the drugs and the chemotherapies and the radiation and do the surgery and when it came to me, I said no and found another way. And that was what, seven years ago, right? Speaker 3 (48:00): Wow. Right Speaker 1 (48:01): For you Jen. Seven years. Mm-Hmm. Speaker 3 (48:03): I actually didn't leave surgery. Right. Right away. So this journey, yes. Started seven years ago for me, but it took me some time to be able to leave. I'll tell you that of all of the things that I've done in my life and I've done a lot, I've had tremendous privilege. I mean, I really, you know, there is nothing like the privilege of being a surgeon in that God gave me this incredible ability to do what I did. And there is no greater trust than when someone goes to sleep and leaves you solely responsible for their life. Yeah. Their life. And it was amazing. And I really truly would have ever walked away from that had I not had this experience and this epiphany. But I was deeply entrenched in traditional medicine. So you know, it's not like one day the light switch flipped and I was all in. Speaker 3 (49:05): I did have to go back and train in functional medicine. It took three years. And you know, along the way it's belief and doubt, belief and doubt, belief and doubt. But at the end of that three years, I walked away from a position where I was highly paid, highly respected, and I was walking into the unknown working for myself for the first time in my life, I had spent my entire career as an employed surgeon walking away from very large income, of which, at least part of which was going toward supporting my family and putting my children through school. And it was a huge, huge sacrifice for me and my family at the age of 50 to start over. Huge. So that really truly was one of the most courageous things that I've ever done, is walk away from something that I was the master of to something that, you know, was completely new to me. Speaker 3 (50:07): And you know, thank God I did. And I'm sure you feel that same way, that thank God you did and I'm so, so, so grateful for the opportunity. I don't want to say that I am blessed by the fact that I had a near death experience because mm-hmm , you know, that's not a blessing. When I was able to see it as an opportunity, that was the turning point for me. And I think that that's an a really important message for people to know. Breast cancer sucks. Horrible. I don't wish it on anyone, but if you can, instead of seeing it as a punishment, seeing it as an opportunity, a window to something bigger and better, greater, more refined, more connected version of yourself for the people that are able to do that, it pays off. It pays off exponentially, but it's not always easy. Speaker 3 (51:04): And I didn't get there the first day either. I didn't even get there the first year. Like it took me a while to see my illness as opportunity. But that should be the goal. Yeah. It may not be the goal the day that you're diagnosed, but it needs to be the goal at some point. If you're going to truly overcome, if you're going to truly get healthy, it needs to be the goal at some point. And there's a large focus on that in my book. And in fact that's how my book ends, by reminding people that when they're ready, look to your why. What is the message? What is your dysfunction trying to tell you? Because we are created by God. We are perfect in machines and in a very imperfect world. And what is it that is interfering with the function of your machine? Because our bodies know how to heal, we just need to give it what it needs and take away what it doesn't. And that's where the work is. The work is in knowing what's working for you and what's not. So Speaker 1 (52:06): Much wisdom and brilliance and courage. And thank you for the path you've taken. I know it, it's has not been easy. And I'm so grateful to have the honor of having you on the show to tell your story and talk about such important information that women need to hear. So many women are quite afraid of breast cancer and they don't really know who to turn to. And now my followers know who to turn to, Dr. Jennifer Simmons. And I know you have a wonderful download for everyone about some things that they can start doing today to prevent themselves from not only getting breast cancer, but a lot of other diseases. Do you wanna tell 'em about it? Yeah, Speaker 3 (52:52): Absolutely. I mean, you know, ultimately you have so much more control than you think. And none of us need to be victims. We don't. And we can take that control now and have the health that we want, that we deserve, that we need. And so I put together a list of all of the things that you should be thinking about over the course of the week. I mean, you're not gonna be able to do everything every day, but as long as you get to it over the course of the week, that is what really is meaningful. You're not gonna be perfect. Don't strive for perfection. If you strive for perfection, all you're gonna be met with is failure. And just remember, it's what you do most that matters. So make it mostly great. Speaker 1 (53:33): Awesome. We'll have the link in the show notes, it's for Dr. Jen's weekly checklist and tell everyone where they can find out more about you online. Speaker 3 (53:42): Absolutely. So there's lots of places. My website is real health md.com and I have my own podcast called Keeping Abreast with Dr. Jen. And you can get that anywhere that you get your podcasts. I have a Facebook group if you want to follow along, ask questions. That's called Keeping Abreast with Dr. Jen. And my book is out and available. It's called The Smart Person's Guide to Breast Cancer. And if you are affected by breast cancer, if you know someone affected by breast cancer or if you are worried about breast cancer, this is the place to start. Awesome. Speaker 1 (54:18): Definitely go check Dr. Jen out, download her guide and just take it. Simple steps, what could you do today? And like she said, don't aim for perfection. 'cause Then when you don't reach it, then most of us, if you're like me, you say, I forget it. Just do what you can. Thank you so much, Dr. Jen. Oh, Speaker 3 (54:39): My pleasure. My pleasure. And don't forget to follow me on social at Dr. Jen Simmons. And my Jen has two nss. Speaker 1 (54:46): Yes, two Ns. She's at D RJ E n n, SS I M M O N. Ss. Thank you so much for joining us on Speaker 3 (54:55): The show. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. And Speaker 1 (54:57): Thank you for joining us for another episode of The Hormone Prescription with Dr. Kieran. I know you are inspired by Dr. Jen to make changes in your life. If she can do it, you can do it, and I'll look forward to hearing about the changes that you're making. Maybe you're just going to bed a little bit earlier, maybe you're just changing your diet. Whatever it is, tell us about it on social media. We look forward to hearing about it. I'll see you on next week's show. Until then, peace, love, and hormones, y'all. Speaker 2 (55:30): Thank you so much for listening. I know that incredible vitality occurs for women over 40 when we learn to speak hormone and balance these vital regulators to create the health and the life that we deserve. If you're enjoying this podcast, I'd love it if you'd give me a review and subscribe. It really does help this podcast out so much. You can visit the hormone prescription.com where we have some free gifts for you, and you can sign up to have a hormone evaluation with me on the podcast to gain clarity into your personal situation. Until next time, remember, take small steps each day to balance your hormones and watch the wonderful changes in your health that begin to unfold for you. Talk to you soon.   ► Subscribe to Dr. Jenn's FREE Weekly Health Checklist - CLICK HERE.   ► Feeling tired? Can't seem to lose weight, no matter how hard you try? It might be time to check your hormones. Most people don't even know that their hormones could be the culprit behind their problems. But at Her Hormone Club, we specialize in hormone testing and treatment. We can help you figure out what's going on with your hormones and get you back on track. We offer advanced hormone testing and treatment from Board Certified Practitioners, so you can feel confident that you're getting the best possible care. Plus, our convenient online consultation process makes it easy to get started. Try Her Hormone Club for 30 days and see how it can help you feel better than before. CLICK HERE.   ► Do you feel exhausted, moody, and unable to do the things that used to bring you joy? It could be because of hormonal poverty! You can take our quiz now to find out if your hormone levels are at optimum level or not. Take this quiz and get ready to reclaim your life; say goodbye to fatigue and lack of energy for good. We want every woman to live her best life — free from any signs or symptoms of hormonal poverty, so they can relish their everyday moments with confidence and joy. Imagine having a strong immune system, vibrant skin, improved sleep quality… these are all possible when hormones are balanced! CLICK HERE now and take the #WWPHD Quiz to discover if you're in hormonal poverty — it only takes 2 minutes! Let's get started on optimizing your hormone health today.

Like a hungry young gunslinger, GEO has been plucked from the sidelines to the big leagues this week, making the jump from Kayo to the hallowed turf of Fox League. But don't worry, it's still the same show you love. Your favourite segs, What Were They Thinking and So Right, So Wrong have made the cut, plus there's a heap of Flare Bets and banter to boot.

Today's guest is Malcolm Turner   Malcolm has over 25 years in the financial services industry but specializes exclusively in commercial lending. In 2007, he co-founded Castle Commercial Capital LLC, a national commercial mortgage banker and brokerage based in Southfield, MI.   Show summary: In this episode, Sam interviews Malcolm Turner, co-founder of Castle Commercial Capital LLC. Malcolm shares his journey into commercial lending, starting with his background in financial services and his transition from residential lending to commercial lending. He discusses the challenges and opportunities in the current market, emphasizing the importance of finding the right financing options for different types of deals. Malcolm also talks about the benefits of bridge lending and gives examples from the self-storage industry.    -------------------------------------------------------------- Intro [00:00:00]   Starting a Commercial Mortgage Brokerage [00:00:49]   Surviving the Financial Crisis and COVID [00:03:21]   Specializing in Multifamily and Bridge Loans [00:05:46]   The importance of speed and time in closing deals [00:11:34]   The risk and challenges of unbankable deals [00:15:40]   Strategic repositioning of a hotel property [00:19:16]   The challenges and opportunities in the current market [00:22:27]   Using premier properties to feed applications and keep occupancy high [00:23:34]   The importance of meeting with a finance guy ahead of a deal [00:24:36]   -------------------------------------------------------------- Connect with Malcolm: YouTube: @CastleCommercialCapital  LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/malcolmturner/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/malcolm.a.turner  Twitter: @CastleLoans   Connect with Sam: I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.     Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/ Email me → sam@brickeninvestmentgroup.com   SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-scale-commercial-real-estate/id1539979234 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f -------------------------------------------------------------- Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below: Malcolm Turner (00:00:00) - A lot of people that were doing bridge loan deals that shouldn't have. Mm. And so now with the price increases, okay, they're not competitive and it's like, oh, bridge loans are bad. No, that deal should have never been in a bridge loan in the first place.   Sam Wilson (00:00:14) - Welcome to the How to scale commercial real estate show. Whether you are an active or passive investor, we'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big. Malcolm Turner has over 25 years in the financial services industry. He specializes, though, exclusively in commercial lending. In 2007, he co-founded Castle Commercial Capital, LLC. They are a national commercial mortgage banker and brokerage based in Southfield, Michigan. Malcolm, welcome to the show.   Malcolm Turner (00:00:46) - Thanks, Sam. Thanks for having me on. I'm honored to be here.   Sam Wilson (00:00:49) - Absolutely. Malcolm, The pleasure is mine. There are three questions I ask every guest who comes on the show in 90s or less. And you tell me, where did you start? Where are you now and how did you get there?   Malcolm Turner (00:00:58) - I started in.   Malcolm Turner (00:01:01) - Well, how far you want to go back? I started in financial services as a financial advisor. And then the laws changed with Glass-Steagall, where everyone got in everyone's backyard. You know, insurance guys selling brokerage and broker, selling insurance and got into residential lending. That was a tremendously lucrative at the time. You couldn't do deals fast enough. There wasn't enough appraisers to do them at that time. This is oh five, oh six, and was having a conversation with my pastor and his office one day about me doing the right thing for a client, which meant putting him in a fixed rate FHA loan, and my manager wanted me to put them in an option arm that would have blowed up three years later had we, you know, you know, new had a crystal ball. And I was like, Yeah, but this guy is a single guy. First deal. We should do the right thing, right? Oh, there you go, Malcolm Talking about that. Do the right thing. Stuff, you know, and I said to my pastor, why he's doing the right thing.   Malcolm Turner (00:01:57) - A batch of dishonor. And he says, Well, if you were going to do a company, you know, mortgage broker, brokerage, how would you do it? I'm like, well, do commercial because commercial is about the numbers. It's not about the kitchens and the bathrooms. It's the math. You know, And we talked about I said, you set up an office and you have to build relationships with lenders and do this, that and the other. And that's about all it would take. It goes, Great, let's do it. I was like, Oh, I thought we were talking hypothetical. He's like, No, I love you like a brother and I trust you with money. We should do it. And I was like, okay. I was like, Well, I love you too, man, and I trust you. But the only thing about mortgages. So we would be doing all the work and we're splitting the money and I don't want to mess up our relationship.   Malcolm Turner (00:02:41) - And he's like, Yeah, you're right, Malcolm. I totally get that. Tell you what, you you don't have to train me. I get it. I'll be humble, let you coach me. Um, let's build a legacy for our families, and I'll fund it. And you set it up, and then we'll be evenly yoked. I was like. Okay. And that's how Castle Commercial Capital was born 16 years ago.   Sam Wilson (00:03:06) - Wow. That's a that's an unconventional story. I love that getting into lending in 2007 doesn't seem like the most favorable time to start a company like that.   Malcolm Turner (00:03:21) - It was not. Our saving grace was the residential market crashed first. Commercial really didn't get pounded until 2010. That's about when the, you know, it finally caught up to commercial. You know, but since then, we've survived the great financial crisis. We survived Covid. You know, we've even survived just the latest rate increase over the last year because there's been quite amount, quite a bit of turmoil, especially on my side of the table.   Malcolm Turner (00:03:54) - You know, lenders have gotten and all lenders are going out of business. You know, when lending stopped during Covid and in March of 2020, by the time June and July rolled around, some of those lenders didn't make it, you know, and we're still here. So I'm I'm I'm glad to do that. But, I mean, that's not because I'm special or anything like that. But I've always recognized like when Covid hit, I said, okay, no one's funding right now. Not sure when they're going to kick up. So let's redo our website. It's a great time to do it. Let's redo our marketing. As a matter of fact, let's come out with a commercial mobile lending app. Let's do that. You know, and so I've always tried to stay out front and say, okay, you know, like Wayne Gretzky said, you know, he's great because he skates to where the puck is going. Not to where the puck is, you know. And that's up the side.   Malcolm Turner (00:04:51) - And then we just wrote our book financing the Bankable deal, you know, And so I was at the commercial, the National Commercial Mortgage Brokers Conference in Vegas last year, and I was talking to a bunch of commercial lenders and saying, Hey, I'm writing this book. Where do you guys think the market is going and what's it doing? And, you know, did I cover everything? You know, Is there anything I missed? And one of the guys was somewhat skeptical. And we had a breakout session the next day. And during the breakout session, he found out everyone on the panel had done business with me. But him. He was like, Wait a minute, you did business with him. You did along with him. And both of the guys going, Yeah, he sure did. Yes, he does. They're like, Well, okay, well, you got to get us in there, right? You know? And I was like, Yeah, okay. You know, that's awesome.   Sam Wilson (00:05:38) - That's awesome. Well, tell me this. What what is the type of lending that you specialize in now?   Malcolm Turner (00:05:46) - Right now, most of our business is multifamily. Most of our businesses are multifamily and we kind of slid into the bridge loan, the bridge lending space because you know, the market for deals. That are picked over and everyone's fighting for. If the market is this big, those deals are this big.   Sam Wilson (00:06:09) - Right.   Malcolm Turner (00:06:10) - And so there's another you know, this is a stat a lot of people don't know, but like 85% of commercial loan applications are denied. Yeah. Believe that are denied. Right. That doesn't mean that the other that the the 15% are great and the other 85% are terrible. You know, there's probably another 25%. Of those deals that are doable. They just don't know how to do them when their bank says no. Right. Right. And so I was at a a commercial multifamily meetup and a banker was doing the presentation on financing. And at the end of it, they said someone asked the question, well, outside of there were a small community bank outside of you guys doing loans, who else can do them? Another way to do multifamily as well, the small banks and big banks.   Malcolm Turner (00:07:02) - And I was like, That's it. And they were like, Yeah, just just those two. And that was from their perspective, Right, Right. And I was like, okay. So I posted in the group on their Facebook page. There's seven alternative ways of financing deals between Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, USDA, FHA, HUD, Right. Private lending, bridge lending. There's a whole smorgasbord of options, you know, and everyone's getting in the business. You have insurance companies, pension funds, hedge funds that are setting up mortgage funds. So there's plenty of capital in the marketplace. Now, deals, on the other hand, is another story, but there's plenty of capital to get to get deals done right. Just no matter what, it's going to cost you. And then if you're buying, can I price my deal where the cost of capital makes sense, you know?   Sam Wilson (00:07:54) - Right. Right. That that's the the kicker right there. Can I price my deal where the cost of capital makes sense? And, you know, there's a lot of fear, I think, in the marketplace right now.   Sam Wilson (00:08:09) - What are we on? And you would know this stat better than me, but I read it maybe. A month ago. That year to date, transaction volume in the multifamily space was down 75% nationally. The rising interest rates are a concern, as you said. You know, you guys have weathered through that. But having, you know, specializing in the bridge lending space, there's a lot of people that look at bridge lending now, especially with a, you know, suspiciously. They look at it and go, oh, absolutely. Bridge lending. Don't I got to go? Like, that's not for me. Tell me why it still is a good option for the deals you guys are getting done.   Malcolm Turner (00:08:51) - Well, I think you start with when is it inappropriate? Mm. Right. If you have a cherry deal, it's cash on like crazy. You got tremendous occupancy or expense ratio is is fantastic. The property condition is great, the location is great. You know, you don't need a bridge loan.   Malcolm Turner (00:09:16) - And what I've seen is for convenience and speed and just, you know, again, convenience because it's not as many hoops to jump through. A lot of people that were doing bridge loan deals that shouldn't have. Mm. And so now with the price increases, okay, they're not competitive and it's like, oh, bridge loans are bad. No, that deal should have never been in a bridge loan in the first place.   Sam Wilson (00:09:39) - Right.   Malcolm Turner (00:09:40) - You know, so for me I look at if the deal has something wrong, if it's got what we call heron on the deal, poor occupancy, poor cash flow, you know, there's all time. There's a situation where there's a time sensitive thing going on. Like, for example, I had to deal with closed where there was two partners, two guys partnering on a deal. They own the property probably about 5 or 6 years when I was getting a divorce. And and, you know, sometimes you see it coming. Sam Right. You sort of know the handwriting's on the wall, right? And the one partner says, Look, if you're getting divorced, we got to get out of this partnership because I don't want your wife winning, winning your half of the deal, and I can't be partners with her.   Malcolm Turner (00:10:28) - Right. You couldn't make it work. I sure as hell can't. Right. So. So they were looking to get out fast. Their property manager was my client. So I have been he's been I do commercial real estate meetup here locally in Southfield, Michigan. And this guy's been coming to my meetups a couple of years and he had about ten rental properties. And so we did a portfolio loan, cashed out of his cash, a bunch of equity out of his residential. And then literally 45 days later, these guys said, Hey, hey, Rob, do you know anybody that might want to buy this property? Because we got to get out fast. And he was like, Hey, me, me, me, me, me. Right. He's already been the property manager and he had the cash and he knows what the issues were with, with the property, right. And there were certain things they were they should have done, but they weren't doing. They could have made it more profitable.   Malcolm Turner (00:11:25) - And so he knew where it could go. So we financed that deal, got those guys out, and we closed in like 30 days.   Sam Wilson (00:11:33) - Wow.   Malcolm Turner (00:11:34) - You know, and for the speed for closing that quickly and beating the attorney right to the courthouse, you know, he got that property at like a 15 know 18% discount to value. Right? Right. So for some sellers. Speed and time. Let's just say time is more important than money. Right, Right, right. And so, you know, you have to say and play a blue ocean strategy. And say, okay, where am I looking at deals that no one else is looking at and then how do I make that work? And then that's where a bridge loan could come in. And even if the deal is is fine and there's no pressing issues like these two partners had, you might still offer that lower price. But I will close quickly. I will close in three weeks. I will close in 30 days or less, you know, and see if they bite now, if they don't bite.   Malcolm Turner (00:12:32) - And he says, okay, fine, you didn't you know, you didn't bite. I guess I won't have to go the traditional route, you know, because there's going to be a higher cost with the bridge loan. Sure. Right. But if I'm getting an 18% discount off a value. I don't care.   Sam Wilson (00:12:47) - Right.   Malcolm Turner (00:12:48) - The math works, right?   Sam Wilson (00:12:50) - Well, hopefully the math works, because even if it's a discount, if the current cash flows don't cover the, you know, the current expenses, then it becomes an interesting, interesting equation.   Malcolm Turner (00:13:02) - Well, right. That's where the math has the math. Right. Right. And I say that in my in my book. The math has to work. Right. Right. And you can't fall in. And one of the mistakes sometimes investors will make is they'll they'll find a deal or maybe it's a deal that been paying on for a long time. It finally comes available. They get a shot at it and it's a bad deal. And I'm telling them it's a bad deal.   Malcolm Turner (00:13:28) - They got other advisers telling them it's a bad deal and somehow they still trying to make it work. I remember I had a guy shop a deal to me three times in two years. In the first time, I was like, Yeah, I don't think this is going to work. He didn't listen. He went to someone else, you know, didn't work, pay some guys money up front to quote unquote pre-approval or some nonsense. Okay. And came back to me. And then the third time, a real estate commercial real estate brokerage here in town say, hey, Mac, I got a client coming in tomorrow. He's got this big deal downtown Detroit. We're trying to make it work, you know, I know it's short notice, but can you meet me in my office at 10:00? Because he doesn't have his financing set. And I was like, sure, sure. I walked up to the meeting and the guy's name the broker's name was Levi, right. And I was like, Hey, Levi, how are you doing? Is that good? He's like, Malcolm.   Malcolm Turner (00:14:20) - I was like, Mike. And Mike was like, Hey, Malcolm, how are you doing? I'm like, Good. He was like, Oh, you know, each other. I was like, Oh, yeah, right. And we went to talk about the deal and he was like, Yeah, I got the spreadsheets. Like, It's okay, Mike. I got everything on your deal. I don't throw that stuff away. So everything you submitted to me is all those financials still the same? Yeah. Okay. Well, your options. The options I gave you six months ago. The options I gave you a year or two years ago. I'm probably the ones you still should take. And he wasn't willing to listen. He was so in love with this deal. He just couldn't let it go.   Sam Wilson (00:14:57) - Mm hm. And it was a deal that should have just been let go, is what it sounds like. It was just a bad deal.   Malcolm Turner (00:15:04) - It was. Well, it wasn't.   Malcolm Turner (00:15:05) - I won't say it was a bad deal, per se. It wasn't a great deal for him. Right. And he ended up losing it. Someone else got it. And, you know, long story short, it was a deal that was probably like a million and a half. And I just saw it. It sold for like 5.20.   Sam Wilson (00:15:22) - Wow.   Malcolm Turner (00:15:23) - So, you know. But but if I you know, they always say, you know, there's there's more than one way to skin a cat. Sometimes there's only one. There really is only one. And if I say this is how you make it work and that's how you get it done and the guy doesn't want to do it was nothing I can do. I can only advise.   Sam Wilson (00:15:40) - You can only advise. Let's talk a little bit about your financing, the UN bankable deal book. And again, you know, this kind of goes obviously hand in hand with bridge loans, things like that, that help get some of these deals across the across the finish line.   Sam Wilson (00:15:56) - But what are un bankable deals and why? What's compelling about those that makes people even want to buy them? I mean, if banks are looking at it going way, way, way too much risk, kind of like you looking at it going, Hey. That's a that's a challenging deal. Like what? What's the motivation behind someone trying to get deals like that done And what's the what's the I mean, just give me some color behind that if you can.   Malcolm Turner (00:16:21) - Sure, sure, sure. I mean, from my perspective, a good bankable deal has got some hair on it that scares the willies out of everybody else. So one, you're not going to have a lot of competition when it comes to negotiating the deal, because most people, I think, don't think it's possible. Right. To you know, like I said, it may have cash flow issues or occupancy issues. And the question becomes, does your team because I believe teamwork makes the dream work. Right? Does your commercial real estate team have a plan? To turn that property around.   Malcolm Turner (00:16:59) - You know, sometimes that that property, that own banker will deal is a hotel that's failing miserably as it is a lot of hotels right now, Sam, that are in trouble. A lot of the biggest category of deals in foreclosure and forbearance. Our hotel deals. Okay.   Sam Wilson (00:17:18) - It's not it's not office space.   Malcolm Turner (00:17:21) - No, it's hotels. It's hotels.   Sam Wilson (00:17:25) - Tough. Why?   Malcolm Turner (00:17:26) - Because if I'm, um. Ford. Okay. And I'm leasing 50,000ft², and I've got a five year lease, right? I'm paying my bills. Right? Right. For may try to negotiate with the landlord, but I'm paying my bills. Yeah, okay. In a hotel, though, right? It's consumer based. So Right. So the consumers are like, Yeah, that area's not that hot anymore or we don't like that property anymore or it's not managed well. It can drop like a hat. You know? And so as an investor, though, sometimes we know in commercial it's about highest and best use. Right.   Malcolm Turner (00:18:14) - So one of my examples in my book is about strategic repositioning. I had a client, she bought one of these, um, drive in like motel type places. You know, we're talking about, you know, the movies. You pull up to it, that's where everybody hides out and trying to hide from the FBI. You're on the lam. One of those type hotels. And she closed off the place. She put wrought iron fencing all around it. She made it senior only because seniors only need about that much square footage. Right. She took the wall out and the and the back of the unit in between. So she made two units. One one unit is like their living area and the other unit is a bedroom. Sure. Bedroom, private bath. Right. The other one was like a little living area with a kitchenette. Okay. She provided housekeeping for them. She provided meals for them three squares a day, all for all inclusive price of, like 2500 a month.   Sam Wilson (00:19:15) - Wow.   Sam Wilson (00:19:15) - Okay.   Malcolm Turner (00:19:16) - The square footage was only 432ft². We? You know, that thing was cash flow and like crazy, right?   Sam Wilson (00:19:30) - I'm sure it was.   Malcolm Turner (00:19:32) - You know, And so she's like, let me do it again. And so that's where now if she goes to get a loan for multifamily. That's not going to work there. Look, this is a hotel, right? You're going to have to do some renovations to it. We don't know about your experience doing that, you know? How successful is it you're going to change the use? What about. But if somebody has a plan and they've got it worked out and she had a chef that would come in in the in the clubhouse of the of the place, he would cook meals for all the residents on a daily basis. It worked out. It cost her like $5 a meal. Wow. Right. The maid service, same thing. And the great thing about the maid service. They're all seniors, right? They're on fixed income. They loved the fact that meals, housekeeping, everything was included for her.   Malcolm Turner (00:20:26) - She knew her property was going to get kept up because the maids going in there cleaning everybody stuff. And if somebody was having a rough time, if they were sick or they weren't doing well, the maid would know first. Sure. And say, Hey, Mrs. Johnson, And you know, Unit three B is struggling. You may want to call her adult children, have them come check on her. You know, So it was a way to better manage the property as a property manager because the maid was giving her all the gossip on what was going on with the place, you know, and every unit was maintained well, and she made a really good profit. Oh, and she gave them cable, right? Because she gave them like basic cable. And the only thing those tenants had to pay for was their own cell phone.   Sam Wilson (00:21:08) - Wow.   Malcolm Turner (00:21:09) - Wow. And that was not a bankable deal. But that was where, you know, and I believe she bought that property all in between the renovations and the purchase was like a mill one.   Malcolm Turner (00:21:23) - And I think the value of our cash flow was something like 2.4. Wow. And then when I met her, she wanted to cash out, refi and then go buy her another one. Sure. And I was like, Absolutely.   Sam Wilson (00:21:37) - Absolutely. Yeah. Because you got the model. I mean, that's it. And I think that's what I'm hearing you say here is anything that is outside of the ordinary, it's not maybe cash flow positive and or if it is cash flow positive, the value add plan has not yet been implemented. A heavy value add plan has not yet been implemented. So what you need are a couple of things. Tell me if I'm wrong, but you need someone with a skill set to implement the heavy value add plan. Yes. And then, you know, obviously, you know, that's really it. In the second part is to have that plan. So if you have those two things inside of a deal, maybe that non-traditional or the lender's traditional lenders won't look at, you need to go to the non-traditional route, which is through maybe somebody like yourself that helps specialize in that.   Malcolm Turner (00:22:27) - Okay. And there's money for you know, there's money for all of that. And as lenders who aren't scared. Of a value add project. Right. They're not scared of even if it's like a straight, like obviously repositioned, but also just, you know, this is a property that maybe market rents are 1200 a month and the current rents are like 700, 800 bucks. The owner is like, you know, 82 years old. And he just didn't feel like putting everyone on a new lease. So the whole rent roll is month to month. You know, it's on the market and the bank is like, Yeah, yeah, we didn't want to do that. But if you've got a guy that's got, let's say, 4 or 5 properties already in the area, he's bringing in applications, right? Rental applications from those other properties. Okay. He knows I can fill up those 20 units easy, no time. You know, I know guys, they do self storage like that. They'll have a great location and they'll they'll have one property.   Malcolm Turner (00:23:34) - That's the real big marketing property. It's on such a great corner that property is always filled and they use those extra locations to fill other self storage. They got like 5 or 6 other self-storage units that are not on great locations, so therefore they were cheaper.   Sam Wilson (00:23:50) - Right.   Malcolm Turner (00:23:51) - Right. And they use the one premier property, right? The trophy property to feed the applications and keep the occupancy high and the other self-storage properties that they have.   Sam Wilson (00:24:02) - That's awesome. I love it. I love it. Malcolm, I've learned a lot from you here today. Learned about bridge lending. You learned about the times when it's a good application and a good opportunity to use that. Talking about your book Financing the Unbreakable Deal, we've talked a lot about the advantages of using bridge lending, convenient speed. The yeah, just went kind of through a lot of those details on that. I've learned a lot from you. Certainly appreciate you taking your time to come on the show today. If our listeners want to get in touch with you and learn more about you, what is the best way to do that?   Malcolm Turner (00:24:33) - They can find us on YouTube.   Malcolm Turner (00:24:36) - We have a YouTube channel, Castle Commercial capital. You can find us on YouTube. Our website is Castle Commercial Capital. I also have my book website, which is financing them. Bankable deal. They can learn more about the value that's in our book and if they want to book consultation, I offer this to all of your listeners there. They can have a free consultation for half an hour with me to discuss the deals that they're working on and future deals, because one of the best ways to be really effective with your financing and I put this in my book is to meet with your finance guy ahead of the deal and say, Hey, here's where financing is at, here's where it's going, here's the best deals to get done, and then go out in the marketplace and see which. And it's amazing. Sometimes I'll have a conversation with someone. And literally three days later, I found just the deal you were talking about. Really? Yeah. But it's like and I'll end with this, it's like getting a car, you know? I got a black Toyota Venza, XLE.   Malcolm Turner (00:25:36) - Not a whole lot. I'm on the road. Most. We don't even know what that car is. I didn't know what it was. I fell in love with it when I saw it. Right now, I see them all the time. Every day. Right? Right. It's like once you get an eye. For certain types of deals. You see them. You know, I've got an eye for commercial real estate. You know, I personally like to buy single tenant leased properties that are vacant. So every time I'm driving down the street and I see an empty McDonald's or a former Baskin-Robbins or a close Starbucks, I'm like, ha ha ha. And then I'm reading What's the other tenants around that? And most people just drive by those places, right?   Sam Wilson (00:26:15) - I love it. I love it. Malcolm, thank you for taking the time to come on the show today. We'll make sure we include the links to your book and to your website there as well. There in the show notes.   Sam Wilson (00:26:25) - I certainly appreciate your insight and your time.   Malcolm Turner (00:26:27) - Hey, thanks for having me on, Sam. I appreciate. It was fun.   Sam Wilson (00:26:30) - Hey, thanks for listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate podcast. If you can do me a favor and subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, whatever platform it is you use to listen. If you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show. It helps us both attract new listeners as well as rank higher on those directories. So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.

Market Proof Marketing · Sorting Through the Perceptions & Realities of Today's Mismatched Market with Nick BoniakowskiIn this episode, Kevin Oakley is joined by Nicholas Boniakowski, Head of Agent Partnerships at Opendoor. Together, they discuss an article from Opendoor that sheds light on the current real estate market. Nick unpacks what a “mismatched market” means and the inconsistencies with what consumers are saying and what they are doing. They talk about the future of the economy and Opendoor's dedication to making sure sellers know they have options in an uncertain market.Kevin and Nick discuss:This article: https://www.opendoor.com/articles/todays-mismatched-market-real-estate-perceptions-vs-reality The low inventory and how that is influencing the market.The buzz around the upcoming recession… that still hasn't happened yet.How most homebuyers and sellers desire flexibility on the closing date.The new normal on buyer and seller concessions.Questions? Comments? Email show@doyouconvert.com or call 404-369-2595 and we'll address them on the next episode. More insights, discussions, and opportunities in the Market Proof Marketing Facebook group.Subscribe on iTunes > https://now.doyouconvert.com/mpm-itunesFollow on Spotify > https://now.doyouconvert.com/mpm-spotifyListen On Stitcher > https://now.doyouconvert.com/mpm-stitcherA weekly new home marketing podcast for home builders and developers. Each week Kevin Oakley, Andrew Peek, Jackie Lipinski, Julie Jarnagin, and other team members from Do You Convert will break down the headlines, share best practices and stories from the front line, and perform a deep dive on a relevant marketing topic. We're here to help you – not to sell you!Transcript:KevinAnd today we have Nick Boniakwoski, head of agent partnerships at Opendoor here to sit down and talk about some of the research that they've found in terms of a mismatched market perceptions versus reality. Some some really great insights and takeaways. And Nick, thanks for joining the program.NickThanks, Kevin. Thanks for having me.KevinNow, your title, head of agent Partnerships at Opendoor. Give us a quick background of what it is that you do Opendoor, how you found yourself there, and kind of the background that that makes you the right person to be talking to today.NickSure. And up to. So I'm coming up on about almost two years at Opendoor now, but I've been in real estate in and around real estate for most of my professional career, which sadly not to date myself, goes back. Coming up on two decades, I've had about 15, 16 years in the real estate industry starting.KevinDo you still have so much hair as if you've been around in real estate that long?NickI've I. You can't see the back of my head. I'll just. I'll just say that. And I'm going to look forward on this camera for the rest of the time. But no, it's, you know, I so I can't say that I've seen a few cycles now and I'm sure we'll talk about later in this conversation kind of how this one is unprecedented.NickBut I did grow up in a third generation real estate office right about my grandparents. First job was organizing the filing cabinets that our deal folders went into. And I remember in that job when I was 14 or 15, you know, moving these folders up to the attic because it was a New Jersey law where I'm from. Yeah.NickTo maintain these files for seven years. I remember in those early days thinking, Man, I'm using my computer for everything. When is this part going to change? When is that going to change? So I've been fascinated with the industry and that intersection with technology, which has led me down a series of different jobs in in the industry, some some years at some other big real estate companies, including Redfin.NickI actually worked at Realogy. Now anywhere brands for a little bit, but always kind of at that forefront that intersection of of marrying the old with the new, you know the brilliance of all the new technology in the world alongside the new local expertise that an agent can bring. So talking about, you know, how I'm in this, where I am at this role now as head of agent partnerships, it's really about meeting the consumer where they are.NickAnd that's generally the theme of our our whole partnerships team at Opendoor, where, you know, we're trying to do a lot of interesting things to digitize the home buying and selling process, working with consumers, giving them other options to to move with the click of a button. On the partnership side, we also recognize that, you know, in 2023, while technology continues to improve the process, you know, customers are comfortable working in different ways.NickAnd on agent partnerships, it's our recognition that, you know, many, many, many consumers have that trusted advisor in their local network. They want to work with that person. So my job is to basically reach out to the agent community, help agents and brokerages understand ways that they can partner with Opendoor to make Opendoor a solution for their customers that want the best of both worlds.NickYou know, the guidance from their their trusted advisor and access to open doors digital home selling or buying solution.KevinSo I think that's awesome. One, it's great to see always see people who have kind of that front line experience and so that background in the agent world of seeing transactions and being involved in transactions, definitely that's always one of the missing pieces when we start abstracting to other layers of technology and finance and operations. And it's like, have you done this?KevinYou know, you kind of if you sit in enough brainstorming sessions with people who haven't been involved to that degree in the real estate world, it's just almost it's just really hard to come out with what the consumer really does want. I think that's interesting. And then second, I think it's really interesting that part of the approach, it appears that Opendoor is, hey, we need to have great data and great insights to share with agents as well as consumers, as well as builders.KevinAnd that's again, kind of brings us back to this article of of, you know, anything that can be used to inform, better inform kind of all of our mutual customers. It's it's it's good for everybody.NickYeah. Yeah. I totally agree. I mean, and that's one of the enjoyable and exciting parts of my role actually. In addition to data, you know, we have access to hundreds of thousands of consumers. So, you know, with that access, I agree with you. And there's a sense of responsibility around, well, how can we pull conclusions not just keep them from ourselves, but really inform, you know, the broader population of the vendors, partners and the various folks that are going to be interacting with customers.NickAnd that's truly been one of my favorite parts about working in the real estate industry in that like at its heart, it's very collaborative. You know, the nature of of buyers and sellers and representation on all sides and that people are generally trying to work together. And that's what we're doing with a lot of these surveys that we publish, you know, with that access to consumers, you know, we can collect some insights and hopefully share them with the industry so they can better position their products or for our for our agents, they can look to Opendoor and realize that, you know, we're here to inform and educate and make the process better for for everyoneNickout there along those lines and into the data, which, you know, I will walk through today, I have the privilege of talking to agents across the country in my in my role, whether they're partners or just new agents that are interested in hearing about us. And that may be at conferences or individual office visits. But we have a team at Opendoor.NickLiterally in the past 24 hours, I've talked to an independent broker in Charlotte, in North Carolina, and I had a meeting with, you know, one of the larger teams in in the Houston market of Texas. So we get an interesting perspective, which is a theme We'll talk about a bit today, I think, in what's going on with mismatched buyer and seller expectations.NickBut just this idea that, you know, real estate, we all know it's hyper local, but that's also true. And what the data shows us, that it can feel like a hot market in one area and it can feel extremely cold in another.KevinSo yeah, and we'll have a link to the article in the show notes and I'll show it here. For those of you watching on on video right now as well. But I mean, Mismatch market, I love how it opens of you know, everyone wants to try to summarize it down to a point of is it a buyer's market or a seller's market?KevinAnd I think the the first thing of the article really points out is that buyers and sellers are both in agreement that it's a tough market, but maybe for different reasons depending on the side of it. You're on. But but no one thinks that the current market is a panacea for either side. It's a fair way to say it.NickI think so. I mean, I think when you pay attention to headlines, people have realized that it's been what I would call a seller's market for for quite a few years, although that's that's shifted mostly because of the volatility. And I think whereas if you had to get someone to choose buyer or sellers, you're going to have more folks that are going to say, well, it's likely easier to be a seller, just given the fact that inventory is extremely low and interest rates are triple what they were a year ago.NickThat said, it is clearly a different seller's market or less so than it has been in some of these crazy years of the last few. So yeah, you're generally just getting a lot of confusion where I think people hesitate to answer that question specifically. And it's part of the reason why we went into this this research just to kind of to settle this.NickAnd I think as we see in the data and reading this report, it still is a little bit inconclusive, although there is some alignment on buyers and sellers. And I think the reality is that however people feel about how easy it might be to sell your home right now, there's just general agreement that it's tough. I mean, it is a tough a tough place to be transacting.NickAnd most of the people that we're seeing moving are doing so because of, you know, life events, reasons that they have to be dealing with. A lot of speculative buyers right now are looking to take advantage of some opportunity in the market. So.KevinYeah, and typically when you hear the terms buyer's market or seller's market, it's like everything on either side of the ledger is in favor of that audience. And that's that's what we're saying here, is that, yes, it's still more a seller's market than not, but it's not in past seller's markets. It's been like the seller can just state their terms and get what they want.KevinThere's there are going to need to be concessions. If you're going to talk a little bit more about at the end or expected concessions on either side and that's a little bit more nuanced. And of course, it all depends on the specific markets. But next in the article that I thought was really interesting, it says the top five housing market concerns all generations actually can agree on in the top three.KevinSo the question was, you know, what what are the things about the housing market that's concerning to you? 77% said interest rates, 72% said home affordability, which I think is interesting. And a weak economy was 60%. The next two were not over 50%, but still a good portion. Lack of homes for sale, 34% and high unemployment at 20%.KevinInterest rates are an unavoidable reality. So that one, we could we could talk more about that, Nick, but I want to maybe just have a little more conversation on your perspective of the next two, which is affordability. This doesn't really seem to be slowing people down. In the article, it talks about the fact that kind of the velocity of of sales as a percentage of what's available, 3% I think is a weak roughly is higher than it was in 2019.KevinSo even though it's a concern, it doesn't seem to be something that's actually causing transactions to pause or I think again, in other markets kind of like that, that would be something that would be that would be reducing that speed of transaction. Yeah.NickYeah. I think it's a great, great call out and I think it's exactly, you know, one of the points here that illustrates the title of this whole whole survey, it kind of is mismatched expectations, mismatched market where it's not not really just mismatched expectations between buyers and sellers. It's mismatched kind of fact or what consumers are telling us and what they're actually doing.NickSo people are hoarding. They have concerns about affordability, obviously interest rates, yet they're still transacting. And I think more than anything that speaks to really one thing and it's inventory. The fact that we're dealing with inventory levels from from, you know, not seen since 2004, I think is is the year we mentioned here, just that in most markets you're dealing with lower demand.NickYou certainly have decreased buyer demand just because of interest rates. Some folks have simply been priced out of the market. Yeah, the only thing beating that decrease in demand is the decrease in inventory. So no matter how few buyers you have, they're still chasing fewer and fewer homes. So that that unfortunately, it creates a world where homeless portability can be a concern.NickBut doesn't change reality if if there's still two buyers chasing one seller. You know I loved when you when you opened you talked about what a what a true seller's market looks like where there was this idea where you could put your home on the market and just say everything you want. And actually used a similar phrase in a conversation last week where it was almost like a demand letter.NickYou would go to the market and you you'd publish your demand letter during your highest and best, and you say, These are the things I want. This is the closing date, this is the money down. This is the lender I want you to use. And this is exactly how you're going to close and what you're going to ask for in your inspections.NickI've definitely seen a step back from that type. So I think we're kind of in this transition period where the sellers who used to be able to do that, or the agents who used to be able to guide their customers to say, publish your demand letter when we do your highest and best, you're not encouraging that kind of activity anymore.NickYet they are still going to market in most cases if they have, you know, well-priced home in relatively good condition, they still are expecting multiple bids. They're just aware that it's not going to be quite what it was. So we're still in this mode where people are expecting because there are so few of their neighbors on the market, that these buyers are going to have to overlook the concerns about the home affordability and the interest rates on their.NickIs that.KevinGood? I think what's interesting is it's like this captured thing because people who are choosing to transact now on either side, buyer or seller are probably doing it because there is a innate need or prompting of circumstance that that, you know, I was just reading on another article today about the fact that, you know, builders in my world, you know, their concession amounts have been higher.KevinSomeone just recently, one of the public builders just now said that like 9% on average are giving away 9% of their their prices on incentives. Well, if someone is choosing to sell their existing used home in this market, they're probably doing so because there is a reason. So like the arguments being made that builders find the market faster because they have to sell all the time no matter what and the used market doesn't have to.KevinBut the sellers in today's market are probably selling because there is something that makes it. I have to situation. It's not going to be all the time, but it's more so to me. The analogy is I love analogies Nick is if if I invited my wife to go out for a steak dinner knowing that she likes steak and I say the words, we are going to go get a nice steak dinner at a nice restaurant.KevinAnd then we show up at the restaurant. You know, the date had been made were there. And I look at the menu and I'm like, Oh, dang, steak is twice what it used to be. At that point. I can be frustrated and I can express concern about the affordability of steak, but like, we're getting steak, it's not like we're going to say, Hey, let's let's just leave the restaurant and go get Italian.KevinLike, let's go ahead Olive Garden. So I just think that that whole and it's important for for our audience as builders and developers understand that you are going to get questions and objections and concerns around affordability, and you do need to be ready to speak to those. But also you don't have to have kind of an initial response of, Oh my gosh, I must be overpriced or overcharging.KevinBecause again, kind of what you spoke to, a nuance there was demand might be low, but suppliers to lower in most cases. All right. Moving on to a weak economy, 60% of people worry about the weak economy. Is it weak? Is this just this is future projection, obviously, of the fact that it feels like things must get worse.KevinBut everyone's been talking about this is, you know, the recession that has been the most anticipated recession of all time. That still hasn't happened yet.NickYeah, you know, I myself am confused. I don't know if the recession happened is happening today or is happening tomorrow. All I know is that it's in every headline that I read. And I think that is basically what most Americans experience as well. Yeah. You know, Jay Powell a few weeks ago talking about, you know, bypassing a recession.NickWe have a bunch of different data points that would indicate that it is a healthy economy. Obviously, we see unemployment towards the bottom of this list. I don't think that's a coincidence given how relatively strong employment numbers have been. And I will say that in this subject in general, I always guide and counsel any real estate professionals or people in and around the industry that if you want to be successful in real estate and don't ever talk about politics, just look at approach on the sales side.NickAnd I think that as you get into the economy, you know, these things become a bit political in that someone's always to blame for whatever the current economy is. So I think the reality is that we're going to we're in a media cycle where we're always going to be talking about the economy, how it could be better, what are the warning signs those kind of headlines get?KevinI think the benefit is that generally people can be concerned. I think both home affordability and economy fall into the same place of I'm worried. I'm really worried about it in air quotes, but not in my own personal situation. Like, yeah, I feel like the economy must be getting worse or headed in that direction. But I just got a raise.KevinI just got approved to work from home. I just, you know, it's like, but it's for everyone else to worry about. And at the end of the day, the people who are choosing to transact in this market, they have concerns about those things, but they also either feel like they may not apply. And that's just that's like human nature.NickYeah, I think that that that is right on. And I think the reality is that for people that have been looking for homes, given how difficult it's been to find a home over the last few years with inventory, you have a lot of buyers that have been at the search for quite a while. So they're prepared. They have gone through the process you have to go through with a lender.NickObviously, the borrowing requirements are a lot different than they were during the, you know, the years leading into the great financial crisis. So, you know, you have informed consumers, despite the increases in rates that feel some sense of security and they're getting educated on on what's required to actually buy a home. So I think what you said is, is mirrors a lot of what I'm hearing from agents and that the overall state of the economy, you know, whatever people may think about individual buyers, you know, they're going into these purchases despite the increase in interest rates with, you know, strong savings and a plan.NickAnd they looked at 500 houses. So they generally have a sense of of where they think the value is. And there's a bit of confidence on that side.KevinYeah. And so like you said, even it's still a on the balance of seller's market. But even in this market, it seems like they still want the same three things that sellers have always wanted. And the research calls us out. 87% of sellers say the certainty of an offer not following through. So certainty, 74% of sellers want to sell as fast as possible.KevinThey want speed, and 58% of sellers say that receiving a cash offer is important to them. So certainty, speed in cash sounds like what sellers have always wanted and always will want it does.NickI mean, also a bit of a plug for for opendoor. It's it's it's kind of the basis of what we try to do. But I mean, that's no coincidence, obviously, in that, you know, we're looking to deliver exactly what what consumers consumers want. I do think, you know, along those lines, one of the trends that we've we've mentioned in this article is that we have seen fall through rates increase, I think 18% currently sales are falling through and that's that's up to the second highest percentage since 2014, I believe.NickSo it's becoming an increasingly real, you know, problem in the industry. My wife's in the residential lending space and, you know, someone qualifying, you know, at a five and a half or 6% rate. And then when that rate goes 2 to 7% can be the difference between someone, you know, losing qualification. Different things can happen during deals. And, you know, we are seeing some of the hesitancy show up in the way people are acting during transactions.NickSo at the end of the day, you know, despite it feeling like it's it's a good seller's market for many sellers but in uncertainty in the world that we're seeing show up in the data here around concerns around interest rates and the economy and all that, it is showing up in people backing out of transactions and it is obviously in sellers mind.NickSo being able to deliver, you know, the certainty and the speed and cash that that open door can just to have it as an option on the table. I spend 99% of my my time with my team talking to agents about having this option. You know, sellers are going to consider a lot of different things. But knowing that in this kind of uncertain market, having having that cash offer, which is what we try to be for agents, you know, you have this cash buyer, at the end of the day who will execute the same as obviously, you know, I know you've had some of my colleagues on to talk about the homebuilding side, how andNickhow important that can be. You know, even in this market where inventory is low, having continued contingency, you know, to buy one of those homes obviously can be nearly impossible. So Right. Continues to be true, continues to be something that we really try to try to push. And, you know, I think this will become increasingly important as we continue to move towards, you know, this uncertain period of time.NickI don't know what's going to happen in the future. Obviously, I think a lot of people have been has been wrong about where the real estate market is headed over the last few years. But you have to imagine, as this business tends to be cyclical, there will be some more movement, you know, to to reach some kind of equilibrium.NickAnd during that time, I imagine these demand from seller is going to become more important.KevinAnd then equilibrium is found by buyers and sellers making concessions, in fact, finding the market one one transaction at a time. Ultimately in the data here says that both prospective sellers, 76% and buyers 80% indicate a willingness to make concessions to expedite the process. So again, it's this idea of buyer sellers, market. We're going to have to make some concessions in order to make things move forward.KevinSo this is, again, where you're you're both your background and your current position really lets you talk in depth on this particular topic. So before we get to kind of the current data points, how have concessions evolved over the years? Would you say?NickYeah, and that's the real the real meat of this survey. You know, concessions don't always show up in the numbers, right? You know, the popular headline is always purchase price. People think about their real estate deal. The thing that stands out is what you pay for or concessions are are one of those things that kind of exists in the background where they're not always quantified on the settlement statement.NickThey don't always show up that the seller was willing to to leave a an old Volvo in the driveway to get a deal done has actually happened to the neighbor of mine. So they're kind of that unspoken in some ways. Part of the deal and a reason why we really wanted to survey our audience on this was because you don't always see it show up.NickAnd I think that concessions when you start to see people do different things on concessions and get more active on the seller side, that is a tipping point that shows you moving from from one market to another. So as we discussed, we are by no means, you know, moving towards this this robust buyer's market. But as we move a bit from extreme seller to like moderate seller market, we're starting to see at least a willingness on the seller side and buyers and of course, to align on concessions.NickSo, you know, we mentioned, you know, what they are these are the components that basically get deals done. It is where, in my opinion, from working with real estate agents for four years, it is an area where I see the best experienced agents really outshine their competition in terms of creativity and really just general awareness on telling their customers, you know, what can actually happen here.NickBecause again, if you come into a transaction, you're thinking, well, I got to pay this amount and it's going to cost me this much money per month, and these are my taxes. But, you know, if you're in the industry and an expert in the industry, like many of the real estate agents I work with, you know, you are advising your client on all the different moving parts, whether it's a closing date or getting help with, you know, rate rain by downs and the different components, different ways that you can make concessions as a seller or as a buyer to really bring a deal together.NickAnd I think that's what we're we're starting to see in the survey shows and you mentioned the 76% and 80% of buyers and sellers willing to incorporate some concessions shows a general alignment. And I think the thing that I hear the most, and this is more qualitative and quantitative, but it backs up that point is that 72% of sellers are buyers right now as well.NickSo you can have the best time ever selling, put your house in the market and get a ton of offers. But if you're going to buy the next home, you're going to deal with the same set of problems that every buyer is facing right now, including the 7% point mortgage rate. So I'm not going to sit here and say that sellers are deeply sympathetic or are ever going to feel bad about getting 50% more than they paid for their home five years ago or ten years ago.NickWhen you're selling, you're probably going to get the best deal you can. But I will say that there's a general awareness around, wow, this young family is now dealing with a rate that was triple what they could before. I'm going to have to deal with that as well. When I want to move, I'm going to have to deal with all of the things that they're dealing with.NickSo it's kind of recognition of how tough it is. And that showed up at the top in our kind of alignment piece where where this is one thing that buyers and sellers agree on that even the sellers are saying, yeah, it's it's overpriced. Like I see it, it is a very overpriced mark.KevinI think even the top the top one here on your list on flexibility and closing date makes complete sense. And my, my hunch would be that this has been at that top really ever since the COVID epidemic began, because everyone, you know, when it was a completely a seller's market for sure, this most likely would have gone away of like just figure it out.KevinI don't care. But now that we're back in this more balanced market, that everyone understands that just making dates align is really, really tough. I also just anecdotally, my own experience and people I know, it seems like when you close and when you take possession are also often two different dates in today's world, a lot more flexibility of hey, you can you can remain in the home for a period of time after the closing occurs or rent back or, you know, a lot more flexibility on timing.NickYeah. The only difficult part about doing a chat with you, Kevin, is that you take a lot of take a lot of my my headlines that's exactly the point I was going to make that I think which which I appreciate you know you're you're an expert so it's nice to us to realize that, you know. Yes, that's exactly right.NickExactly where I was going to go. But again, for for agents that we talk to and for our consumers, there is a general awareness at that point. You know, it's usually like, well, I'm closing this date, the deal's funding. I better move in that day. But there's a ton of flexibility. And this is what we're seeing, you know, with many of the agents that I talk to, it is just detaching those two things.NickThe deal may close this day, but I may be getting, you know, three weeks of a lease back so I can stay in my home or, you know, I may be moving in early or there's all these different things I haven't heard of a really extreme example from a very fortunate real estate agent who is doing quite well and has a second home down down the beach and she was actually able to she she was representing buyers, but the seller wanted to stay on the property until they're closing date.NickThe buyer wanted to get into do work, so the seller had nowhere to go for another three weeks. But that agent was actually able to use her summer home to give it to the seller for free, to basically allow her buyers to start the work. So they closed up front. Seller had a place to stay, which wasn't their relative's house, but, you know, extreme an extreme example, a fortunate position to be in.NickBut I'm hearing people basically make deals like that. And I agree with you and I've covered this this kind of concession has become popular. And I think it's a good thing for just customers to be aware enough. I think overall in the concessions piece, another thing that I hear from agents a lot recently is, you know, you mentioned home builders and different things they're doing and that 9% figure.NickThe thing that I hear from agents with new construction being an increasingly large part of invisible available inventory inventory, is that on the resale on a used market, they're competing now with with those concessions. So whereas, you know, in the seller's markets of the past, you didn't have to go to market with a bunch of concessions, you didn't have to list on the MLS, you know, get a $5,000 closing cost credit.NickI don't think we're at that point yet, but I'm hearing from agents that they're being a lot more proactive in advising their sellers to possibly play a role in a rate buy down. Now, obviously, that looks a lot different from from, you know, a new built where you can advertise that on the banner at the front door, the new sales office.NickBut we're hearing that a lot more that agents are trying to educate the sellers to be a little bit more proactive. And even if it means that they're going to net that same strong purchase price just as a way to get buyers more comfortable with, you know, getting that that rate down a quarter or an eighth of a point.NickAnything they can do to kind of just create more goodwill on that transaction Because again, there's just a general sense of, yeah, it's tough to transact right now. And if you're doing so, it's like you said before, you're doing something because you need to.KevinYeah, well I think a couple of things there. One is your point is is really insightful that even a lot of shoppers and sellers don't understand how common this concession is in terms of flexibility. And so when you're dealing with an uncertain consumer on either side of the transaction, it's important somehow to to communicate this with. And that's obviously where the experts have to come in.KevinAnd how do you communicate that without kind of starting out with desperation? Not at the beginning, but you can imagine hundreds of consumers saying no way, honey. We we got to make sure that the data lines up because think about all the stress in the and the domino of other things that have to be lined up and really know that that doesn't have to be.KevinBut unless you help them understand that that that possibility exists, that uncertainty is is really high. So like how how you kind of remove the veil on that is important for both buyers and sellers under understanding and and if they have representation that's communicated. But the other thing that I think is real interesting is as a seller, when you add the 18% cancellation rate of transactions and then you start talking about this, a lot of flexibility that you're offering to the buyer on timing, that does seem to be a little bit like you are adding risk to the equation.KevinI'm I don't know if I'm saying this well, Nick, but and I'm trying to find out a way to make it not sound like a blatant advertisement for Opendoor. But my point would just be like knowing that 18% of transactions are falling through and then delaying and delaying and delaying a closing date for a buyer that might not close, It does seem like that's a riskier bet and something that certainly should be factored into.KevinDo I should I take this offer from Opendoor that has, you know, certainty, speed and cash versus saying, hey, I'll take this this offer from from someone else, but I'll delay the closing for three months and then two months in and they say, sorry, we're not we're not doing it.NickI mean, I, I can can disagree with you and I understand why I could feel like a bit of an advertisement. But, you know, that is one of the primary value props. And I think specifically and also for for a big chunk of your audience, obviously on the other side, that unique offering that we have for our homebuilder partners of of nine months of close of escrow and basically must say that.KevinAgain because I still I'm amazed by the number of people I interact with who are like they don't they have not heard this or it never registered to them.NickYeah. Just recognizing, you know, the partnerships and the the use case that we have on the homebuilder side. And this is not my world. This is a nod to my my, my colleagues on the home other side that I work very closely with. Obviously, many, many homebuilders are working with agents. So it's all it's all related. I don't want agents to know this, do that.NickAnd then when I went off consumer selling to open door and buying from one of our homebuilder partners or any new construction made from a homebuilder, they are eligible for up to nine months for their tools. The best girl with basically unlimited flexibility on when they're going to pick that date and how often they need to move it, which obviously your audience doesn't doesn't need me to explain.NickIt is tremendously valuable in that whether it's a close date, getting pushed out for for a construction delay or whatever it may be, having that flexibility for the reasons that you just articulated around falling through, you know, you're under contract with a traditional buyer of your own home and their financing changes. You know, you're out of luck. On the other side there.NickSo that is a massive, massive value prop. You know, we recognize how necessary it is when you're in that situation and, you know, versions of that exists. Obviously, the flexibility around the closing date for for all consumers. So when we work as agents, I think it's one of the most difficult things for us to explain to our agent partners when they talk about a closing date.NickWe show them a calendar and a product and we say pick the date, you know, and they're dealing with a 60 day window, but they can pick Tuesday. They could change the next day to Wednesday. And having the ability to have this cash buyer of Opendoor who can execute the closing on the day that the seller needs to is tremendously valuable.NickAnd also, you know, recognition that we're going to close. We don't have to, you know, go go borrow our money the way a traditional buyer what it's going to close. And we say it's going to close. And yeah, I think if I had the ability to convey what you just conveyed around the risk of fall through and how much that can cost, if we could do that succinctly upfront, I think everyone in the world may look at the opportunity in more favorably.NickBut but that's my mission to spread that word. And, you know, I recognize there's a lot of different ways to buy and sell on the world, but that is obviously a massive, massive benefit of working with Opendoor.KevinAll right. My last question is, do you feel like this openness towards concessions is the new normal that we're in for a while or you know, what? What are you hearing and seeing kind of on the front lines right now when it comes to buyer and seller concessions?NickYeah, You know, my my, my colleagues are starting to make fun of me for saying this because I reference it so often. But I got to get my my father, my my original mentor in real estate a shout just one of the earliest lines I've I've heard him say since probably the nineties when I started paying attention to what he was doing.NickAnd I was a young kid then, but he'd always say, and this is going back to the nineties, my crystal ball is in the shop now. Now I'm a dad and I'm saying the same cheesy stuff, but it is the truth. You know, my crystal ball has been in the shop for as long as his had. It's very difficult to say, you know, where the world is headed.NickI'm not an economist. Everyone I talk to in the industry now says these times are unprecedented. They haven't seen them before. And, you know, real estate folks, they love to say, oh, I've seen this before, but this one feels especially new when I can say being in the industry. I mentioned this earlier. The thing to me that separates the great agents, the that are always doing a ton of transactions and the same is true for sales associates.NickAnd in the new construction offices I go to is that they are open to negotiating concessions are always a part of their business in good markets, down markets you know giving people how were the market is just mean if it's buyer or seller giving both counterparties a sense of many victories is just a really smart strategy and hire conducting your business.NickSo you know if the market continues to shift, if we get into a world where, you know, inventory starts to come back and we get a little more balance, you know, I see obviously where concessions appear in a transaction either upfront on the seller's MLS listing or on closing day. You know, that kind of shifts around a timeline of when they're used, either keep a deal together or attract new business.NickSellers are certainly calling the shots today, so that means concessions are happening, but happening further on down the process. And, you know, I just stay with that theme of not sure what's going to happen in the market, but smart folks are continuing to deploy them in every situation and and just making sure their customers are aware of all of these different moving parts that go beyond just the purchase price.KevinI'm going to say something that sounds like it might be an extreme statement, but I really I don't know. I don't think it is. I think tip to me the fact that both sides are open to concessions. I don't know this has ever been plotted on a on a chart, but makes me feel like the market is more balanced than most people would think.KevinIt's another way of just saying what we've kind of said a couple of different ways on on today's show, Nick, But like, you know, a savagely unhealthy market and one extreme would be again, where we're one side is like, nope, I don't need to make concessions because it's a buyer's market or it's a seller's market. And so the the volume of transactions, especially in the agent world, feels highly unhealthy.KevinBut when I look at outside of the number of transactions as a as a data point, I think both sides are willing to make concessions then then it's maybe a more healthy market than a lot of people would say from the outside.NickI think it's a reasonable conclusion. And I think that's why and I encourage all your listeners to check out this survey and the resulting blog and the research we've done around it. Just just going back to that point of we see a lot of headlines. We know, you know, the popular headline around price growth and going to being generally a seller's market.NickBut these concessions and the reason why we were so interested in it and the data here is exactly that point that but maybe it isn't exactly as it looks in the headlines, maybe there's stuff going on below the headline, but behind the scenes that shows that buyers and sellers are are getting together and compromising a little bit more than, you know, the headline would lead you to believe.NickSo yeah, I like the conclusion.KevinSo awesome. Well, Nick, thanks for coming on and thanks to the whole Opendoor team for, for doing research like this and sharing it openly. Always good to have more insights, especially from people who have both the number of transactions and consumers. The interaction with but but also just the general industry connections to to hear what's what's going on on the ground floor.NickAwesome. Thanks for having us, Kevin.  The post Guest Episode: Sorting Through the Perceptions & Realities of Today's Mismatched Market with Nick Boniakowski appeared first on Online Sales and Marketing for Home Builders - DYC.

On this episode of the Circuit of Success, host Brett Gilliland interviews Katie Collier, the owner of Katie's Pizza and Pasta Osteria. At 20, Katie created the business plan for the first and original location, Katie's Pizzeria, with a dream to bring hand-made, in-house artisan and Neapolitan pizza to St. Louis. Under the ownership of her father, Tom Lee, Katie's Pizzeria opened its doors in February 2008. She recently opened her 3rd location in Ballpark Village in Downtown St. Louis. When COVID-19 hit, and dining rooms across the country closed, Katie acted fast. She and her team immediately began freezing and selling their pizzas to save the restaurants and protect the livelihood of Katie's team. They now ship their pizza throughout the U.S. and their products are available in grocery stores nationwide. Katie shares her journey from opening this pizzeria in St. Louis in 2008 to becoming homeless and eventually finding sobriety. She talks about the importance of thinking big and believing in yourself and encourages entrepreneurs to never give up. https://youtu.be/ZfLSvypx4V8 Speaker Brett Gilliland: Welcome to the Circuit of Success podcast. The Circuitive Success podcast. With your host. Brett? Brett? Brett. Brett, go over there. Brett, Gilliland visionary wealth advisory. The circuit of success podcast, to start the show. Welcome to the Circive Success. I'm your host, Brett Gilliland. Today, I've got Katie call you with me. Katie, what's going on? Speaker Katie Collier: Not much. I'm here and I'm excited. Speaker Brett Gilliland: You're here and excited. We're excited to have you. Speaker Katie Collier: Thank you. Speaker Brett Gilliland: You break away from the restaurant to get over here. Speaker Katie Collier: The restaurant and the five year old. And the five year old. Speaker Brett Gilliland: That's that's the hardest part. The five year old. Right? We gotta get Katie's, pizza and pasta to Illinois. Speaker Katie Collier: I get asked so much. I mean, everyone says of Allen, Illinois. So Right. I know I might do couple laps while I'm here. Speaker Brett Gilliland: You heard it here folks right here. No. We won't we won't hold you to that, but it's a great community. Speaker Katie Collier: For rents. Yes. Speaker Brett Gilliland: We can help you with that. Well, you are Katie Collier. You're the owner of Katie's Gilliland Pasta. You have an amazing new location at ballpark Village. Holy crap. Speaker Katie Collier: Wow. That's really cool. Speaker Brett Gilliland: I saw you there on opening day. And, we talked and, just I've been back a couple times, and it's phenomenal. I mean, it's just the coolest thing ever. You gotta be so proud. Speaker Katie Collier: Yeah. Just to be right next to the stadium and that energy. Yeah. It's really great. And the space is Huge. And, we just went all out. So Speaker Brett Gilliland: It's so well decorated. It just looks it doesn't feel like you're in downtown Saint Louis. Speaker Katie Collier: Oh, I don't think so. Speaker Brett Gilliland: It doesn't. Yeah. So if you've done a great job. Well, if you can, we could talk about that all day. I'm sure. But if you can, I always like to start every podcast what's made you the person you are today, which is a very big loaded question I know? Speaker Katie Collier: Yeah. Speaker Brett Gilliland: But you've gotta tell the story. So if you can, let's Speaker Katie Collier: start. Let's start Speaker Brett Gilliland: healing back that onion layer talking about who Katie Collier is. Speaker Katie Collier: Obviously, parents are very key. Yeah. I have some really unique crazy ones. My mom's not crazy. My dad's passed, so I'm allowed to calm crazy. You can be crazy now. But, crazy in a good way. Just really unique, wonderful people. And then I think going through some painful experiences, one of my dad's quotes was pain is the only teacher, you know. And so, I've been through some stuff with addiction and losing people and all the thin...

The best albums out this week include new ones from Post Malone, Carly Rae Jepsen, composer and singer Beverly Glenn-Copeland, Joni Mitchell's surprise performance at Newport last year and more.Featured Albums:1. Post Malone — AUSTINFeatured Songs: "Texas Tea," "Something Real," "Don't Understand," "Mourning"2. Georgia — EuphoricFeatured Songs: "It's Euphoric," "Give It up for Love," "Live Like We're Dancing (Part II)," "Friends Will Never Let You Go"3. Beverly Glenn-Copeland — The Ones AheadFeatured Songs: "Harbour (Song For Elizabeth)," "People of the Loon," "Stand Anthem"4. Carly Rae Jepsen — The Loveliest TimeFeatured Songs: "Anything to Be With You," "Shy Boy," "Kollage," "So Right," "Stadium Love"5. Joni Mitchell — At Newport Featured Songs: "Both Sides, Now," "Just Like This Train," "Amelia (feat. Taylor Goldsmith)," "Summertime"Lightning Round:Chika — SAMSON: THE ALBUMMadeline Kenney — A New Reality Mind Paris Texas — MID AIRStevie Nicks — Stevie Nicks Complete Studio Albums & Rarities Other notable releases for July 28:Aphex Twin — Black Box Life Recorder 21f / in a Room7 F760Bethany Cosentino — Natural DisasterThe Budos Band — Frontier's EdgeBush Tetras — They Live in My HeadChief Xian aTunde Adjuah — Bark Out Thunder Roar Out Lightning The Clientele — I Am Not There AnymoreDarlingside — Everything Is AliveFly Anakin — Skinemaxxx (Side B)Jessy Lanza — Love HallucinationNite Bjuti — Nite Bjuti

Today's episode is all about understanding the crucial role of income analysis in retirement planning. We'll uncover the secrets of guaranteed income versus the uncertain stuff and shed light on the consequences of retiring without a clear income plan. Don't worry if you're feeling lost - we've got your back with practical solutions and expert guidance. Tune in and take charge of your retirement cash flow!   Important Links:  Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381 ----more---- Transcript:  Speaker 1  0:00  Welcome into another edition of the podcast. It's playing with the tax man with Tony Mauro and myself here to talk about mastering some retirement cash flow really kind of understanding income is going to be the topic conversation on the podcast this week with Tony. Who is de Moines professional alternative at tax Doctor Inc. And you can find them online at your planning proz.com at your planning proz.com What's going on, buddy? How are you?   Speaker 2  0:25  I'm good enjoying the summer? How about you?   Speaker 1  0:27  Yeah, pretty much the same. It's been a bit of wet one, though. It's been a lot of lot of rain. Yeah, down here where we're at. It's been a lot of rain. So   Speaker 2  0:32  yeah, we have not had a lot of rain. And we just got some scoring well needed. Yeah, it's funny   Speaker 1  0:37  how the country does that Right? Talk to several people all the time every week. And it's, it's always a little something different. And then whatever neck of the woods you happen to be in. So right here lately, it's just been been really wet. So our Fourth of July got kind of rained out. But that's okay. We still had a good time and with family and friends. And so everybody out for everybody else that as well. We are back here. This is for our our later July edition here. So this is our second half of July. So let's get into understanding some income. Because you know, cash is king. We've heard that Tony a million times. But in retirement incomes King right? Income is always King in retirement. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I guess it is all the time. But it's really, it's really more important, or certainly critically important in retirement. So what's kind of some scenarios that some issues that you can be looking at, if you don't really have a good clear picture of your retirement income?   Speaker 2  1:33  If you're, you know, if you're kind of DIY, and you're thinking, well, I'll just figure it out when I get there. What are some of the issues you've seen people bump into, you know, I've seen, I've seen a lot of it up this way. And some of the people that own land, and farms and whatnot can probably relate to this. But I've seen, you know, retirees come in, and they'll say, you know, I'm ready to hang it up. But I've, I've got all this land, you know, but the land itself isn't really producing any income. So while they have a lot of assets, that that asset or assets isn't really throwing off any income? I see that a lot. Yeah, yeah, I see a lot of people trying to work their retirement income from a basket of, or a portfolio of securities that they had when they were younger, and trying to kind of make shift pull money out, you know, as they need it. Because they don't have a real clear picture. In other words, most of the time, it's, you know, not income generating stocks, and they're just going to wait for prices to go up. And, you know, hopefully sell and make gains and use that when that doesn't happen, or, or it takes longer than expected. They're stuck with out income. Well, I'd like to make life app,   Speaker 1  2:36  I guess what we should do is maybe identify some potential sources of income that people might have as a retired person. So what are some examples of different places that you know, you might be able to draw income from depending on obviously your life? Right? Well,   Speaker 2  2:51  I mean, the list is long, but the easy ones are, you know, your 401 K's pensions, if you have one, IRAs, of course, Social Security. Yeah, that's the big one. Everybody knows if you have some annuities, dividends and income and interest income from either investments, or bank accounts, CDs, things like that bonds, some of you could have some other type of income, you know, maybe you're working part time, maybe you are doing a little side hustle. And you've got some income coming from that. Yeah, yeah, sure. All of those things are potentials, but the three or four biggies prior Social Security, IRAs and 401 K's.   Speaker 1  3:29  So you know, we talk often about being diversified Tony in the realm of investments. And I think that's where people's mind goes to, okay, I need to be diversified and not have too much in large cap or, you know, or something like that. But you really also want diversification of income sources. So you're not relying overly heavily on just one. And obviously, the big one here to think about is if you've not done any planning, or you've not done any savings properly, or some things happen in your own social security, either completely, or it's making most of what you need to live on. And I'll throw my mom under the bus with this, because unfortunately, that's where she's at in her life in her 80s. Now, I help her out. But you know, from her own potential standpoint, that's where she got she lost just about everything in the Oh, eight downturn, and in addition to some bad choices and things of that nature. She's on Social Security only. And that is clearly not where we want to be.   Speaker 2  4:23  That's definitely not really where you want to be. And I've seen that too. And I've seen tax clients that get to the end. And that's really it. Because at that point, you are, it's impossible to try to generate other sources of income, you know, because your timetable it's got Yeah, it's just too late, you know, and so most of these sources need to be thought out along the way. And so which, again, begs the question of, you got to you got to get a plan and you got to work the plan, which we're always talking about. And, you know, that   Speaker 1  4:52  importance of saving, you know, paying your future self right, Exactly.   Speaker 2  4:57  Yeah, I mean, that's what it isn't, you know, it's hard for to take Get a 65 year old and even if they've got a large portfolio, say of of stocks or bonds or something like that and say, well, let's, let's let's diversify a little bit and go out and buy for rentals, you know, that might not be the wisest move, because, you know, they take, even though they could throw off some income, for example, well, you know, that's actually work, you know, and they may not be the wisest of choices. But you know, for a guy that's had rentals for a long time and wants to continue to have them in retirement, you know, it's a great another source. But I do think you're right, we're really trying to aim for before we even talk about what types of earnings you're getting on them or what the income is, but the different sources, the I think the more you different sources you have the more potential to really live the retirement you want.   Speaker 1  5:43  Exactly. And that way, you're not overly reliant on any one thing, which again, is that diversification key. So let's talk about the two kinds of income in the way that most advisors, I think, probably categorize this or people have heard it, which is going to be what, what are the two kind of ways we would think about income? Well, a lot of times people think about it as guaranteed versus not guaranteed. Right. And, you know, I like to phrase it a you know, on the guaranteed side is guaranteed for as long as you live. So security first. Yeah, that's the first security.   Speaker 2  6:19  yeah. If you have an annuity and you annuitize it, you know, it kind of becomes like a social security payment. It's annuitize.   Speaker 1  6:26  So security check even say annuity on the top of it, I think. I think it does, yeah, anyway.   Speaker 2  6:31  So those are the two, you know, and if you do and are lucky enough to have an old fashioned pension that works the same way, you know, it's a monthly income stream for life. So if you've got those, those are kind of, you can't make changes to them. You know, I mean, you get x and that's it. It's over when generally,   Speaker 1  6:49  yeah, whatever you like, whenever you turn on your Social Security, you know, that's your that's what you're locked into that kind of, that's what you're like, yeah, and you're not guaranteed is that's going to be the that's gonna be our personal stuff, right?   Speaker 2  7:00  As we all have personal stuff, your IRAs 401 K savings, you know, pretty much everything else that you're kind of hoping to use in retirement, and I say non guaranteed, because it you know, you have to initiate, I mean, even if the IRA or 401 K or your investments, you know, fully invested, you got to initiate Okay, and figure out how much is it going to earn? And how much can I take, and so in that could fluctuate a little bit. And that's why most advisors when they start talking about retirement, you know, and you hear a lot about, well, what's the sustainable rate? You know, is it 4%? Is it 3% 5% That I can take out month in month out every year, you know, and maybe not use my principal, or maybe some of my principal, but because retirees, you know, we're, again, we're thinking about that income of how much do I need every month? And then how much you know, above that? Do I do I want?   Speaker 1  7:52  Well, so if we're thinking about guaranteed versus non guaranteed now, balance was where I was going to go with this, I got ahead of myself. So you know, somebody might say, well, what's the proper balance? Like, I want more of the guaranteed many of us would just say that, because we feel like, okay, great, that means that we're covered. But often if you're thinking about this, okay, so if that's where the strategizing comes in, because let's say you've got your, your assets that you've built up of, let's just keep it an easy number, a million dollars, right? And a 401k, or whatever, you know, various different sources like that. And then you got your Social Security, your polling, and the balance that comes into play, Tony, when you're trying to figure out how much you need to pull from what place at what time to create that difference of that shortfall, but also not cause yourself taxation issues, correct?   Speaker 2  8:36  Correct. Yeah. And that's where the good planning comes in more for retirees. I think that even people, you know, just trying to get to the end, right. They're working because, yeah, yeah, in the working years, but it really comes down to, you know, sitting down and trying to analyze what your expenses are, so you can figure out what is covered what isn't, I think a lot of times, people don't realize that, even on the non guaranteed side, once you get this number, or your shortfall number. And depending on what you have, you know, it's fairly easily to predict, especially with today's software, where you can take a person's, let's say, let's say they had a million dollars, and we were going to assume a 4% withdrawal rate you can easily see based on different investments scenarios, how much predictability or what percentage of the time if they live to say 95 to 100? Would they absolutely run out of money and, and so then they could sit there and say, okay, so you know, there's a, for example, a 95% chance, if I have x amount of my guaranteed side, and I take my Million Dollar Portfolio invested in such a way that it's going to throw off X that I'm never going to run out of money and I I've already got everything covered, plus what I want to do and then they can feel good about that, you know, and that's, that's where the numbers come in.   Speaker 1  9:55  Well, now many of us have heard the term paycheck and play check. And if not, I think that was actually coined by Tom hegner, I believe, financial professional as well, you know, so typically, we might think of, okay, well, I need that guaranteed money. That's my quote unquote, paycheck, right? That's covering my must haves and must haves, or you know, the house, rent, or mortgage or food, right? You know, the things we have to have. And then the paycheck side, often people say, well, that's gonna be the non guaranteed and that's the fun stuff in retirement. Do you see that as kind of accurate? Or is that still a really is there other strategizing to where maybe we want to try to pay for everything out of those paychecks and then let the paychecks grow or be really special.   Speaker 2  10:40  you know, a one off kind of deals, I suggest that to some people that are in in the position where they're guaranteed side can cover everything. Right, you know, I don't have any clients right now that have taken me up on that, you know, that say, I want my my stash my paycheck side to just sit and grow for legacy for right. Yeah,   Unknown Speaker  11:00  I guess it depends on your what you want. Right? Legacy is a great, yeah.   Speaker 2  11:03  Yeah. But it is it is a point to consider. I mean, most of the people that we work with, even their you know, without increasing their, their lifestyle, the guaranteed side, the paycheck side is not generally fully covered by guaranteed stuff. Right. And so we all right, yeah, it's a shortfall. Yeah. And so we're kind of dipping into and then we got to show them. Well, you know, but you know, that shortfall could easily be covered by the other side of things. Yeah, the   Speaker 1  11:31  million bucks put away. Let's say that was the exam. Yeah. And that's I think that's where most of us go right, Tony, I mean, because unless you're lucky enough to have a pension. And so because, like the like the milking stool philosophy, right, the analogy, excuse me, were the three legs of a milking stool, right you so if you've got a pension and Social Security, usually a fairly modest or even or a good, you know, nest egg built of your own, you may not have to touch that nest egg very often, because the Social Security in the pension covers it. But most of us are not in that boat. So Right. So that shortfall is a little bigger, because we don't have that quote unquote, pension leg. That's true. Yes. And even,   Speaker 2  12:06  I mean, it's hard to to find these days, where they've got that, you know, because most people aren't in, you know, a place for 3540 years, most places don't have pensions, like government, right, or stay at, let's say, government. And so there is that shortfall. Now, in my own personal situation, my wife happens to be in a government spot. She's been there for 35 years. And so she has our IPERs, which, even though it's extremely good, you know, it doesn't replace 100% of her salary, but it replaces about 70%. And so the   Speaker 1  12:38  shortfall, you gotta kind of you may have to look at like your own personal nest egg, correct my own   Speaker 2  12:42  personal essay, and then she's gonna have Social Security on top of that. So I think with, like, in her case, about 80% of her pre retirement income is going to be covered. And so that's pretty pretty darn close, you know, and then with the other investments, you know, we have and whatnot that that's our play, check slash, fill in the gap money. And that's what you go with, you know, when you got to get engineering   Speaker 1  13:08  well, so and this is where I guess the strategizing of maximization for your income streams or sources, comes into play, right? So having a good conversation, having a good strategy, put together with an advisor, like yourself, so we can it cuz we hear like terms like, hey, get us Social Security Maximization, right? For example. What's the strategy for doing that? And that's really where working with a Pro comes into place is we talk all the time, Tony about the DIY movement of the last number of years has been very easy. It's in it's been easy for quite a while, let's be honest, to accumulate money, right? So if you do the basics, you can probably save, you know, for your future self. But the retirement aspect, that preservation distribution, and the little funky nuances of how to maximize this, what's the best strategy for that? How's it gonna affect tax aid, you know, taxation by taking this money out at this time, and so on. And so that's where the nitty gritty gets really tough for folks. And that's where, obviously, you know, folks like you come in   Speaker 2  14:05  it is and even with a Social Security, you know, planning for because everybody's got the question, Well, should I take it early? Or? I'm gonna take it a second I, you know, I for retirement benefits they owe me it's mine. Right? Yeah, it's mine, you know, and so I tried to talk to him about well, but if we do this, based on what you have, it might be better to wait, you know, type of thing. And I know, and big money that we're talking to, can be big money, big money. And in my own case, again, back to my wife's pension, you know, the, one of the decisions we'll have to make is, well, do we want to just take the straight pension and then when she dies, if she dies before me, I'm out, or do we want to make sure it takes a little less and so you know, if she dies before me, I've still got it till I die, you know, and then run that it's over. So it's those kinds of little decisions you got to put a pencil to and try to figure out what's best for your own situation.   Speaker 1  14:57  Yeah, and often you definitely want to make sure you're making the right one there. or because, depending again on the strategy, because some people might say, well, we're gonna take the bigger dollar option, which does eliminate the spousal often, right. And so if you do that you better have that backup plan in place to know that the spouse is still covered, once that pension runs out, so or the exactly person passes away prematurely, or, you know, whatever the case might be. So there's a lot of little nuances to that. So understanding your income is really important. So this is kind of a quick rundown of some of some different categories you might find. And, again, the guaranteed versus the non guaranteed and how they kind of all play together. And that's why it's important to get a plan and a strategy. So if you need some help, and you're not already working with Tony, reach out to him and have a conversation, hopefully this kind of sparked some interest for you to start thinking about, Yeah, where is my income sources coming from? Or how do I make my 401 K and income source, things like that? Reach out to Tony and his team at tax Doctor Inc. find them online at your planning proz.com That's you're planning proz.com or call him at 844-707-7381. And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast playing with the tax man on Apple, Google or Spotify. Alright, Tony, thanks for hanging out, buddy. I appreciate it.   Unknown Speaker  16:06  All right. We'll see you next time. Yeah,   Speaker 1  16:07  I'll see you in a couple of weeks and we'll be back in August with a new episode here on plan with the tax man   Disclaimer: Securities offered through Avantax Investment ServicesSM. Member FINRA, S.I.P.C. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency.

This week, Emmy nominated Writer/Producer Jonathan Fener, (American Dad!, iCarly, The Mindy Project, and many more) is on the podcast discussing the importance of having access to industry professionals, getting his footing in the industry, and working in the multi-cam world.Show NotesJonathan Fener on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0271779/Jonathan Fener on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jfenskiMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:I always say, you're kissing the wrong asses. Kiss the asses of assistants because they're not go, you know, they don't get their asses kissed. They, they love it. I mean, who wouldn't get, give 'em some attention. They get abused all the time, then they rise up eventually. So, yeah, those are the ones. You gotta be nice to the assistants always, you know.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I have a wonderful guest today. This is a, this is a, I'm gonna tell you the story, how, how we met. So, as you know, the Writers Guild of America's on Strike, and my next guest is a well-known Setcom writer, although we've never worked together over the years. So our paths, you know, we haven't really crossed, but we know all the same people. And then we started, we were on the picket line outside of CBS Radford, and we started chatting and we had a really nice talk. And I was like, well, this, I gotta bring this guy in the podcast. So everyone, if you're driving your car, please pull over, put your hands together. A warm round of applause for Mr. Jonathan Fener. He is, let me just give you some of his credits before I let him talk.You'll notice it's a 45 minute podcast, and I, I do talking for about 44 minutes of it, but I'm gonna talk about your credits. He, he wrote on Bette, the Bette Midler show, Veronica's Closet, do-Over Kid, notorious. It's all relative Method. And Red Father of the Pride, you remember that one with Siegfried and Wright the 78th Annual Academy Awards. I wanna talk about that. American Dad. We know that happy endings, old Soul telenovela, the Mindy Project. How come that wasn't a show? Why was that? Just a project. Trolls Holiday, Elliot to Vegas, American Housewife, trolls, holiday in Harmony. We'll talk about that. And most recently, the iCarly reboot as well as well Mullaney. But guys, this guy's been around the block. John, thank you so much for being on the show.Jonathan Fener:My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thank.Michael Jamin:So, I wanna find out, I wanna know all about your, your history. Let's take it back from the beginning when your great grandparents met. Let's really do a deep dive into your life. ,Jonathan Fener:Eastern Europe.Michael Jamin:Eastern Europe. Let's justJonathan Fener:Do, yeah, let's go back to Eastern Europe.Michael Jamin:But tell me were you, were okay, so how did you first break into the business and did you always know you wanted to be a, a, a setcom writer?Jonathan Fener:Yeah. I, I, even when I didn't know that's what I wanted to do, I, I look back and I'm like, oh, that's what I wanted to do. You know, I, I feel like I'm part of a, a generation that you know, back to watching television shows, videotaping, you know, Saturday Night Live and Uhhuh and sitcoms and, and like I used to audiotape them toMichael Jamin:StudyJonathan Fener:Them and watch. Yeah. And, and, and like, I would, I would watch Saturday Night Live, even when I was old. It wasn't old enough to like watch it. I would tape it on the VCR that we had, the, the one that popped up Yeah. At the top. And then and then I would have an, and then in the morning I'd watch it all day. And I would, and, and I used to make mixtapes, I guess video mixtapes where I would like, like mix and match different sketches that I liked. And then I and I used to listen to those all the time. And then I would also, I'd watch television shows. I did do that thing where I, I would tape television shows and then I would try and like write out the script. I didn't, I didn't know what the formatting was, so I always was interested in Yes, you'dMichael Jamin:Write it, what kind of word for word? Or you'd write your own,Jonathan Fener:I'd write it word for word. I would transcribe.Michael Jamin:Because that made you a writer then. Did you think that was, what was the point of that?Jonathan Fener:Well,Michael Jamin:,Jonathan Fener:It's like this this, this is gonna sound douchey maybe, but I remember reading this quote, I, I, I think Hunters Thompson once said that he used to just type pages of the Great Gatsby, just to feel oh, what it was like to really, to write those words. Yeah. and so you can draw a direct line between me and Hunter s Thompson and The Great Gatsby. Yeah. And, you know, the Bette Midler show. Like, they're basically one to one.Michael Jamin:But then, and Okay, go on. So then, then as a kid, you,Jonathan Fener:Well, I always was a, I was a huge comedy fan. I was a huge movie, television, e everything fan, standup comedy. I loved standup comedy. Right. So was always too afraid to do it. But yeah, I mean, I always knew I wanted to be part of making that comedy, you know, television, movies, all that stuff. So I went to Fast Forward, I went to usc. I, I I didn't go to the film school, but I, I just was, just wanted to be in la Oh. And I guess sort of the way sort of goes, you, you get outta school and, and I, I knew a guy that I went to school with who worked at a talent agency, and he got me a job as a messenger when they were still inMichael Jamin:Existence as a messenger. And so you were driving around town delivering envelopes.Jonathan Fener:That sounds terrible. Thomas Guide. WithMichael Jamin:Your ThomasJonathan Fener:Guide, right? No yeah. In the heat and the traffic. And howMichael Jamin:Long did you do that for?Jonathan Fener:I was probably a messenger for about, I don't know, matter of months, maybe like 3, 4, 5 months. And then a desk opens up and then you're, you're answering phones, so, oh, soMichael Jamin:You didn't have to go to the mail room, you went from Messenger toJonathan Fener:It really wasn't a mail room. I, it was a very small town agency. Okay. It, it was called the Herb Schechter Company. Sure. I dunno if you ever No, I've heard. And it was like back in the day where, you know, he mostly represented like TV writers. They had a whole below the line department. It was a small agency and they didn't really have a male. One boutique. Yeah. Boutique. Boutique. They had a lot of like, guys that were like supervising producers on Magnum, stuff likeMichael Jamin:That. But that's a good, but then, so how long, cuz you know, I was a, I was an assistant at William Morris for three days. I got fired on my second day and I go, but I stuck out the week. I finished the week . So I, I applaud you for being like, it's just a hard job being an assistant for an agent, because I found it was,Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was an assistant for a lot of different people. I was, I, and it, I think it helped that it was kind of, I, I don't know if low, I guess low stakes, cuz it wasn't like, I wasn't at caa. I wasn't at, you know, William Morris. I was at this tiny little agency and this woman I worked for was, you know, she represented like stunt coordinators and, and oh, like that. So not that, look, I still had to do the like, rolling calls thing and all thatMichael Jamin:Stuff. But did you, but did that, did that give you context? Like what did that, what what, what was your takeaway from doing that job for howeverJonathan Fener:Long? Honestly, a lot of the jobs I had until I was a writer were, it taught me what I didn't want to do. Yes. I'm like, oh, I work for an agent. I don't wanna be an agent. Right. And then there's like a network of assistances mm-hmm. where, you know, there was another agent there, this really nice woman named Deborah Lee. I still remember her. She she called me in one day. She's like, what do you want to do? What are you doing? I'm like, I don't know. You know, I mean, I, I think I wanna write, but, you know, may maybe I wanna be a creative exec. I just, I wasn't sure. Okay. So she was like, well, I have a friend who works at Fox and they need an assistant. So, you know, if you wanna get outta here and go work there.And I was like, great. So I went to go work for this other woman and then I just met, I would just meet assistants and they would offer me other jobs. I worked for this guy. My biggest assistant job was I worked for this guy John Matian, who was the president of Fox Network. Mm-Hmm. . So that was the first time where I saw an entire television season from pitches, development scripts and shooting all the way through. Right. Cause I was on his desk and I read every script that came across his desk that was like, I don't know if you remember that guy, or even like, that was the year, that was like in the early mid nineties when they were like, maybe gonna try and do like friends. Like they had this show called Partners and Ned and Stacy andMichael Jamin:Ned and Stacy. Yep.Jonathan Fener:It was becoming a little bit more of like, let's try and make a, a friends clone. So like the XFiles was happening then, right? It was just like, it was, I had one year where I had an entire overview of television and I'm like, and then I would read the scripts and I'm like, I think I can, I I can do this. I can. SoMichael Jamin:Did who, where did you learn to write then? What do you, what was the next step?Jonathan Fener:I just figured it out. I mean, I think that what happened was I met my partner who was my friend Josh by Cell. And we were buddies. And he was at UCLA in screenwriting school actually. Okay. And he was actually writing with his dad. He, him and his dad were writing a script together. It was, it was very, and I was, we would just talk about stuff. And, and then, so the story is that we had another friend who was a PA on this show called The Single Guy. Yep. Remember that show with Jonathan Silverman? Yes.Michael Jamin:Jonathan Silverman. Yep.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. The Brad Hall show. And we, he used to bring home scripts every week and we would read them and we were like, I can't remember, one of us pitched an idea, but funny if they did an episode, whatever, like in real time of whatever. And then we're like, we should write it. Let's just write it. We know how to do it. We should just write it. So we sat down and wrote this script and it was, I thought it was pretty good. And , we, we, and, and again, the assistant network was we knew somebody who was an assistant to Richard Whites at the time. Yeah. Who was a young guy. AndMichael Jamin:And young agent. He was I c m probably, right?Jonathan Fener:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and it was just one of these things where like, after a while I was assistant for three, four years and I had access cuz all the young people that I was working with were now becoming executives or agents. Yeah. So there were people you could actually hand your script to. They would read it as opposed to just throwing it in a pile. Right. And the, the, the long and the short of it was Richard read the script because Brad was a client of his, and I remember he called me at my house and he was like, your friend Mallory gave me your script. I think it's funny and I think that you need to write something else because no one will read a single guy. He's like, I only read it because I represent Brad, but no one will read. He's like, you have to write friends, you have to write Seinfeld, you have to write news, radio, whatever. So Right. That, that was kind of the first thing where we were like, Hey, we can maybe do this. Let's doMichael Jamin:This. That's interesting because this is what I say. Cuz people always sit and they're like, well, do I have to move to Hollywood to break into Hollywood? It's like, well, this is how you do it. You get these jobs, you know, you become an assistant and you network or you get on the network and then that's how you make connections. So that's what you did. I do. I wonder, do you think the assistant network is still strong now? I mean, so everything's changing so much.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. You know, it's a good question. You know, it's like, that's the age old question. Like, how do you break in? And, you know, I feel for years now that like, maybe that's not the way it's done anymore. May maybe I'm just looking at like, stuff as like an older guy where like I look at people and I go, I don't know. Can't you make your own television show on your phone? Or something like, I, but you know, you, you still need some kind of access, I think. And maybe I don't even, maybe I don't, I can't wrap my mind around it a little bit. But like, it just seems like if you do, if you write something, if you make something, someone's gotta watch it. Someone's gotta see it. Mm-Hmm. that can make a decision for you or, or help you. Right. And that's about, that's about that relationships.Michael Jamin:But then how did, so what was your next step? How did you get on staff?Jonathan Fener:We wrote a bunch of specs and we had some friends that were becoming agents. A guy that I, I, I was, I was an assistant with a guy who became an agent and he was a paradigm. We, we kind of, we worked with him for a little bit, but it was, we, cuz like we were friends and like, when things don't go so well sometimes mm-hmm. , it's like it's messing up the relationship. So I think we just were able to get, look, we, we, we, anybody that would read our script, that was a, that was a young agent, we would somehow try and get to them. And everybody passed. One guy at I C m mm-hmm. was signed us. I mean, I, I remember very clearly getting a phone call. I, I, you know, my partner and I, Josh, our birthdays are a week apart. We really were like, you know, we were friends, we were, you know, we, it was like intertwined lives. But we were having like a joint birthday party mm-hmm. . And we got a phone call that, you know, they wanted to sign us. And that was a big, big fuckingMichael Jamin:Deal. And, and what, and they submitted you to which show? What was the first show then?Jonathan Fener:Well, this is funny how things work too. So his one big connection was this woman shit. Her name was Debbie. This is Embarra. I, that's okay. She, she ran Bry, Kaufman Crane. She was like their development person.Michael Jamin:Right.Jonathan Fener:And I feel bad that I don't remember her name cuz she was sweet. And, but that was a good relationship that he had. Mm-Hmm. . So they submitted us for Veronica's Closet. Right. The, it, it was, it had done a year. It did. Well, you know, Christie alley's back to TV and it was, I mean, it was Thursday night. Yeah. Nbc I mean, it was a huge, huge show. AndMichael Jamin:Let's take it back for a second. That used to be a big time slot. Thursday night, n b slate, nbc. Now I don't even know what now. I don't know what they, what they're doing there, but maybe some, it's reality. It's soJonathan Fener:Fire, something fire.Michael Jamin:Is it some dump Dumpster fire? But that's the one. So, but it's, so, but this is something else that you bring up which I think is really interesting. Like, people always say you're kissing, I always say you're kissing the wrong asses. Kiss the asses of assistant because they're not go, you know, they don't get their asses kissed. They didn't, they love it. I mean, who wouldn't get, give 'em some attention. They get abused all the time, then they rise up eventually. Yeah. So those are the ones you gotta be nice to the assistants always, you know,Jonathan Fener:Oh, yeah. Christmas, you know, send them, get the, get the gift card, do the thing. Yeah. I mean, you know, they'll put your call through. I mean, look, I mean, they can do only so much, but yeah, it was, it's just, again, everybody, even if it's the same trajectory, everybody's story is a little bit different, you know? Yeah. And you know, it, it was, I think we were, I think we were lucky, but it was also, it was a, it was, you know, I, I hate to sound like I'm a thousand years old, but it was a very different time. Yeah. And, you know, staffing was like, almost were all seemed like so many opportunities. And it was just like, it almost seemed like, it wasn't like, you know, if I'm gonna get staffed, it was sort of like, where am I gonna get staffed? And, and but, but you know, you sweated out and I never felt like that. I mean, and for every, we, we, I don't think, you know, look, I, I think we were good and, and, but and still are. But you know, I never felt like we were juggling offers . Yeah. You know, it was definitely like, you know, okay, we got this gig and, and you know,Michael Jamin:Yeah. People don't, people don't realize that as well. Like, once you're in, it's great. It, that first job is hard, but you're, then you always gotta worry. You gotta worry about your next job. None of it's, you know, if people think well, you know, it is like you must have it made, but you don't, you never have it made. You're always hustling.Jonathan Fener:Never.Michael Jamin:What did you feel your first season as a staff writer? Did you feel comfortable? Did you feel like, oh, and over your head?Jonathan Fener:Honestly, no. I, I, I can say that with confidence. I felt like I got there and I was like, yeah, this is what I should be doing. Oh, you said I'm not just Yeah. You know, look, we were the youngest guys that, you know, we were the staff writers. Right. The baby writers. It was a very challenging place to work. I mean, you know, Bry, Kaufman Crane, you know, look, we, I could, we could do an entire podcast on just working on b Brianca's Closet and just literally being down the hall from season five of friends. It's like the Beatles. Yes. They, they, their, their dressing room is down the hall. And I'm, you know, with Jerry the Pacemakers or something. Not that, not that. That's, that's a great reference, by the way, for all your younger,Michael Jamin:I don't, I don't know. Listener. Yeah.Jonathan Fener:Just some, but it was like, and the show was, you know, it, it was what it was. It was funny. There were tons of funny people on that show, people I still talk to, to this day. Honestly, but it was like the, the culture of that. And I think it, it's a, it's, it's not a news story in sitcoms. But, you know, we worked, we watched the Sun come up all the time, and it was really, that was my first step. It was like, I had never done it before, but I was like, I knew immediately. I'm like, this is not the way it, this is not the way it should be. Right.Michael Jamin:Was it cause stories were being tossed out? Or notes from the network or what?Jonathan Fener:Yeah, it, it was poor, poor management.Michael Jamin:Oh, time management. It wasJonathan Fener:Poor time management. You know, I would say like, you know, you're, when you work on a, on a show with terrible hours, you're just like, you're a victim of somebody else's badMichael Jamin:Work. Well, there's, there's that. Yeah. Yeah. I always felt very when we were running a show, I was like, I always felt I would crack the whip just because I felt like I want people to go home. I want stop messing around. And, and I was a hard ass in that way. Cause I wanna go home and I think you wanna go home too, don't you? You know, like, let's just work and go home.Jonathan Fener:Those are the ones, the ones that don't want to go home. Those are theMichael Jamin:Worst. Yeah. Those are the worst. Right. Did you, were you on many shows like that, where you felt like a hostage ?Jonathan Fener:No. well, let me think. Not really. That was the worst. And then there were a couple other shows that were rough, but I think that, like, as time went on, I definitely got lucky as time went on that I, I worked for de Decent people.Michael Jamin:Well, you also had another show that was basically the stepchild, which was American Dad compared to Family Guy. I mean, family Guy. Was this behemoth, not that American Dead was any slouch, but you were still in the shadow of a, a family guy, right?Jonathan Fener:That's right. The other one. Yeah. Yeah. The other show. Which, but that Yeah. And that, that was good point. No, but it was, it was and animation was something that I, you know, we got into pretty early on too. And I really, really liked that. And you know, there, there's animation usually is not terrible because the deadlines are, are way far apart. Yeah. Like, as far as like, you know, like Multicam is probably the worst because it literally, you gotta rewrite itMichael Jamin:Tonight at four, at four o'clock you start your day basically. Yeah. AfterJonathan Fener:The run Yeah. Run through is it ruins your whole night. And then it's like someone has, like, if you're doing single camera, you know it, you're usually reading a script for the next week. So, you know, you want to get it done by tonight, but, you know, maybe you can leave a couple of jokes and then the next day you can like, sort of clean it up. Right. But like Multicam, they're, they're at rehearsal at 9:00 AM so they need a script.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. And that was your joint. You were on the Warner Brothers slot. All right. So then, so then what happened? You, I'm gonna, I'm going with your credits over here. So Veronica's closet. And then what about, what was, you were there for, well, how many, well, how many seasons was that? The show was what? Two seasons?Jonathan Fener:They did? Th they three. I was on the last two.Michael Jamin:The last two. And then when it was done, what happened?Jonathan Fener:When it was done, I was like, I, I did it. I, you know, no, I, I was like we, we just got back out in the staffing pool, you know?Michael Jamin:Right. And then you just jumped.Jonathan Fener:We, we, yeah, that was the next, the next season we went to, we got on the Bette Midler show, which at the time was like massive. It was massive. ThatMichael Jamin:Was massive. And then,Jonathan Fener:And that's another, I'm sorry to interrupt. I was gonna say, like, that's an interesting story where, you know, I don't know if you think of 2 26 year old guys as like, yeah, we gotta get those guys on the Bette Midler show. Mm-Hmm. . But our agent submitted us, and at the time we were even thinking to ourselves like, what, what samples can we write that are a little different? So we wrote a Buffy, the Empire Slayer Script, just cuz like, we liked the show and Right. The tone. And so we wrote that and then, and I think we were like, maybe we can look and see about, you know, maybe getting on like an hour or something like that. And then the, it just so happens that Jos Whedon, I think worked for the guy that created that show, Fette.Michael Jamin:So I was gonna say, I wanted to say Cohan and Nik, but no, that, I don't think that's right. Who created it?Jonathan Fener:Jeffrey Lane.Michael Jamin:Jeffrey Lane, of course. Right,Jonathan Fener:Right. Who was a big mad about you, dude.Michael Jamin:Yes. And then, then working for Bette. I mean, that's, that's a whole other thing. You have this oversized star, really a giant star. And she must have had a lot of creative input.Jonathan Fener:Yeah, yeah. You know, she had opinions, but no, she was it was, it was nuts. I mean, you know, they picked that show up for a full season, which even, even then wasn't a thing. And she, she just was like, like such a massive force, you know? Yeah. Almost too big for television. I would even say, like, I remember thinking, she's on the stage and I'm like, and I mean the sound stage. Like I can see her playing Caesars just live or in the movies where she's gigantic. But there's also, there's, there's, I don't know if muting is the right word, but you know what I mean, like, like, there's just something about those mediums that like, sort of, and, and I just think on tv she just was like, massive. Just like, but, but, you know, really funny. And, you know, she did everything. You know, she sang the Rose and she, it was like, pulled out all the stops. It was just, it was almost like, and I don't think she knew what being on a television show entailed. I think when you take people that have never worked on TV and put them on tv, they're like, I have to come back again tomorrow. And Yeah. Tomorrow. And it's a new script today. And like, they're used to shooting films, but even like, it, it's, it's a grind for everybody. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jonathan Fener:SoMichael Jamin:She, she became a little cantankerous. You think ?Jonathan Fener:She, I think, yeah. No, she, she, she, you know, she liked me. she liked me and my partner. We, we wrote this episode actually with Kobe Bryant in it.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay.Jonathan Fener:And I think they were like, get the young guys to write this. And Kobe was, and he agreed to do the show. I think his wife was a huge Bette Midler fan. He, I think he said, I mean, he was nice guy. I remember meeting him and the show, I mean, think about this. We shot the sh we shot our episode in the forum. Like, and, and the, the, the plot of the show is that, that becomes like, she basically accidentally gets onto the court and she starts dancing with the Laker girls. IMichael Jamin:Don't know, but it was a multi happened. It was a Multicam, right?Jonathan Fener:Yeah. But they just, they shot it on the forum, I mean, on form. They, and it was, it was the kind of thing where it was like, whatever it cost, it cost,Michael Jamin:Right.Jonathan Fener:They booked the forum and, and that episode sort of turned out okay. And then I think she felt like, oh, these guys get the show. So they took us out, she took us out to lunch, and she's like, what should, what should the show be? You guys see that? OhMichael Jamin:No. Oh no. And you guys are, you guys are story editors at this point. Right. See, that would be panicked about that. That's not good.Jonathan Fener:Co Cohen was at that lunch too.Michael Jamin:Oh, she took Rob. See, that's the thing. She lovedJonathan Fener:Rob, loved Rob.Michael Jamin:My, my rule of thumb early in my career is don't let the actors know your name cuz only bad things can come of it. . And then, and then, right. So she takes you and now you're, maybe you don't wanna talk about this, but I, that puts you in a difficult position because she should be taking the showrunner and the showrunner should be bouncing you. She should be bouncing the ideas and not, you know,Jonathan Fener:You know. Yeah. It was a Yeah, it was. I mean, I didn't know. We were just like, well, you know, just more do more of this stuff. Right, right. You know, we'll, you know, go to a baseball game. Or, I, I just think she, I, I, look, I think that she was searching for what the show was. I think the showrunner was, I think they just were, and it was a, it was a weird, not a weird premise, but it was like, she, she played a character named Bette, and she played Aer that was a famous Hollywood actress and had been in a movie called The Rose and all these things that were true. Right. But she kept saying, I'm, but I'm not Bette Midler.Michael Jamin:She would say that in the show, but I'm not Bette Midler. She would say, she would say that toJonathan Fener:Us. Oh, okay. Cause we would write jokes and she's like, but I'm not Bette Midler. And we're like, but you were in The Rose. And we're like, okay. Bette Schidler. You're bet. Schidler. Yeah. And, and, and a lot of stuff that happened to her in real life we would try and put into the show. But it was like, it was just one of those things where we were just trying to find our footing and, and, and never really found it.Michael Jamin:Wow. But that's pretty cool though. I mean, hanging out with Bette Midler's pretty cool. SheJonathan Fener:Was something else, man. She was like a, like I said, like a force, like just funny and, and just larger than life. AndMichael Jamin:You know, but we were, we didn't just shoot me. And and George Siegel, of course, in the seventies, there was no bigger actor than George Siegel. And he wasJonathan Fener:Huge. Yeah. Funny.Michael Jamin:And then c just shoot me. And we wrote an episode and he, George could not have been a sweeter guy, such a nice guy and great sense of humor. But there was one episode he, I guess he wasn't happy with what he was playing. Maybe he didn't have enough lines, or maybe he thought his storyline was dumb or whatever. . But I remember he, we were all the writer's rehearsal. And George goes, you know, I was nominated for an Emmy. I'm sorry. He was, you don't have nominated for an Oscar. You know that. Right. And one of the writers goes, yeah, that was a long time ago. George. Get in the dunk tank. . And George thought that was so funny. I mean, he like, to his credit, he just laughed. He thought it was great. .Jonathan Fener:That's so funny.Michael Jamin:That's what's fun about working with some of these, you know, some, some of these old timers are great, some of them are, you know, a little di difficult. Who knows. All right. So then what, at what point did you guys start developing your own shows? Cause that's always a big leap.Jonathan Fener:You know, we, we were kind of like wanting to do that early. And I remember that was another thing that was not encouraged. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Not then itJonathan Fener:Wasn't at all. It was just sort of like, it was the tail end of it, but it was kind of just like, here's the model. Get on staff. Mm-Hmm. work your way up to producer, supervising producer, get a deal. Mm-Hmm. and then you develop. Right. So that was the, that was the the road. But we were like, no, we have some ideas. And you know, if they don't wanna listen to us at, at nbc, then maybe they'll listen to us at mtv. So we had heard that MTV was looking to develop shows. Cheap show. I mean, it's like that thing every, like couple of years. MTV's like, we wanna do scripted. And then they would hardly ever do it, but Right. We had this idea that we would do cuz they wanted to repurpose videos, but somehow do it in a scripted way.So we had this idea that we would do like Dream on, but with music videos. So it was about a kid whose interior monologue was music videos instead of old movies. Right, right. And like, just seemed it was like risky business, but the kid is 16 and he's just that. So we sold that. We actually sold that and wrote it and it never got shot. But that was like, pretty early. That was like a couple years in. And we sold a movie. Like, we were kind of like trying a bunch of stuff. But I think that we early on were like, I feel like we should do our own stuff too. Uhhuh . So I always have said like, like, like I don't, I don't know what it's like to have just like one job. I always feel like I was doing two things at once. So like, eventually if people are always like, they're on staff, like I was always on staff. And then on the weekends I was working on the other thing.Michael Jamin:You see, people don't understand how exhausting that is cuz you're on staff, you're working very long days and then on the weekends you're working more. You know, it's, it's, it's good for you when you're, you know, it's hard. It's hard to do that. Yeah.Jonathan Fener:It was hard. And I think it was the right look. I wasn't, I was, I was, I was married, but I didn't have any kids and mm-hmm. , you know, but it's, it was tough, man. I mean, you know, and, and that was back before you, we were zooming. So like, we would go, I'd go to Josh's house, he'd come to my house, Uhhuh, . I mean, we used to literally meet in the middle and trade.Michael Jamin:Oh. Cause you guys, you guys let, did you live far apart from each other?Jonathan Fener:Yeah, yeah. We, we, we, yeah. UsuallyMichael Jamin:Trade far discs. So I'm, I'm skipping ahead a little bit, but, but I'm curious to know, well first of all, I wanna know how, what was the academy, how did you work on the Academy Awards? How did that come about? That's such an odd term for you thatJonathan Fener:Yeah, that was, that was the connection. There was, that was the year John Stewart hosted, I don't know if that was his first time. I know he did a bunch of times. It was the year of crash crash one. Okay. The best picture. And like Philip er Hoffman one for Capote, but John was Right. Was hosting and he brought out like a bunch of daily show people. And my partner went to college with a guy, Ben Carlin. Yes. Who I kind of became friends with too, because of those guys. So, so Ben was running the Daily Show. He was one of the eps. And so when he came out, he called me and Josh and a couple of other guys and asked if we wanted to be part of the staff of people. Basically they, the, the Daily Show guys wrote the monologue. They asked us the la guys to write like short film parodies of the nominees.Right. So, and then, you know, maybe help out with the, and and, and on on show night we would be part of the joke room cuz they're writing jokes throughout the night. With like, I mean, Bruce Lance was there mm-hmm. and some local school guys were, were there. But so yeah. So we basically pitched like 20 little short filmed things and they picked five or six of 'em and then we got to produce them and, and, and all that. But we were part of that whole thing. That sounds fun. Yeah, it was really fun. It was really, really fun. And like on show night, we literally, they put us down in this basement and we are like watching the show live and it was like instant messaging. If whatever, who, if somebody won something, we would like shoot a bunch of jokes up to them and the wings. ButMichael Jamin:Did you have to wear a tuxedo to do that? Yes. In my mind. You, I knew it in my mind, you have to wear a tuxedo even though you're not gonna be on camera, but you're at the Oscars. Wow. They tell you thatJonathan Fener:Because Yeah. Be because we were, I mean, it was really cool. I mean, we got, went, went to, you know, my, my wife and, and Josh's wife and, and all the wives got to go to the show. Right. They got tickets to the show. We were downstairs and then afterwards we went to the governor's ball. Right. I mean, it was really, I mean, we had access.Michael Jamin:That's a trip.Jonathan Fener:That's, it was, that didn't get a gift back. I was really hoping I'd get like a, because I always, I'm like, there's like a trip to Australia in there or something, but I,Michael Jamin:But you got a nice, you got a nice paycheck that's got that kind of counts for something.Jonathan Fener:I don't remember how much we got paid. I don't know if it was, I, I feel like, I don't knowMichael Jamin:Now what about it was great. What about the Mindy Project? Cuz that was like a big, that must have been a big experience for you.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was fun. And, and that when we were, we had a deal at Universal mm-hmm. . And we had, we, we were kind of lucky. Like we, that was when I worked on the Malaney show and Right. We did a lot of development when we were there and we supervised and ran a couple of shows there. But that was sort of towards the end where they just asked us to come and help out.Michael Jamin:Okay.Jonathan Fener:Oh, for a season. Yeah. And it was it was like, it it is one of those things though, where it was a very tight, well-oiled machine and we, and it was, it was fine. It, it was, it was kind of funny though cuz it was like, you, this sort of happens where, you know, you, you write pilots, you shoot pilots, you run shows, but then sometimes you're a staff guy again. Yeah. And that was a gig where we were sort of like, alright, we're part of this staff. And, and everybody there was like, really funny, really smart. Like, I think, I think that writer's room literally had like three former Lampoon editors, Uhhuh and just like really, really funny smart guys. Right. And women. And we just were like, okay, we're just pitching jokes.Michael Jamin:You're, oh, okay. And then so that, that's, that's the whole experience. But did Mindy run the show? Was she the showrunner at,Jonathan Fener:I mean, she, I she, she had, there was a guy named Matt War Burton, who was sort of running the room mm-hmm. When she was gone. Because the most impressive thing was that she, she shot all day. Yes. Because it was seeing the camera show. She was the star of the show. But she came in at lunch, Uhhuh . And Matt would pitch her and she very efficiently was like, I love this. I love this. What if this happens? What if this happens? Gotta go. And so she, she had the final say. Right. But she was busy, you know. Yeah. And, and that, I I'm trying to think Melany was that way too, but Melany was really part of the writing and that was also a Multicam. So,Michael Jamin:And that was probably, it's, that Melany show was probably three years too soon. Like, you know, like before he really became huge.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. That was, you know, I, I think that, that, this was my opinion and I'm not like making this up. And I remember we used to talk, like John was trying, I feel like John was trying to do something where, you know, everyone just looked at it and at face value and said, oh, it's Seinfeld. He's just doing Seinfeld. But Uhhuh, I think he really, really liked the, the medium. He liked multi-cam, but there was a part of it that I think was a little bit satirical. Mm-Hmm. . But it really, I, I think that if you didn't know that you're just like, oh, he's just, is just a, you know, like I feel like some of the stories that he pitched he felt were funny because it's like, oh, this is kind of a clammy story. But I, but I think it's funny in like, I'm doing it with a wink. Right. But I think people maybe saw it and said, there'sMichael Jamin:No wink. I don'tJonathan Fener:See the wink. Yeah. There's no, yeah. And, and, you know, but it, it was, it's not that it was the wrong vehicle because it was his show. And, and, and he is the funniest guy in the room always, you know? Right. I mean, and NA, see Petra was on the, was in the cast too. She was really funny. There was a great cast. Elliot Gould was on that show. Martin Short was on that show. Yeah. It was like, it was, it was, it was really, really fun. But yeah, maybe it was, I, I think maybe he was trying to like rein, not reinvent the multi-cam, but just like, turn it on 10 a little bit. Right. And it maybe wasn't, no one was like, ready for that.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamen. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist.Did you, cause whenever we developed for comics, we, you know, we wound up studying, then we read, we watched the act, we read, listened to their, whatever the audio books or, you know, read their, did you do the same as well forJonathan Fener:I just knew you mean for that show or for,Michael Jamin:Well, for Malaney or, or for any, any comic that you're writing for. Really. Or even like Bette, you know, for example,Jonathan Fener:Well, Bette, I mean, we definitely like combed through her career and her life and mm-hmm. tried to get stories from it. Mm-Hmm. yeah. Whenever, and, and, and, and, you know, the, the Mullany thing, we, we kind of like, we were also, that was a period of time where like, we were on that staff for a period of time, and then we had a pilot picked up and went to go shoot it. Oh. So we were sort of there for a, a specific period of time. But like, that show was all him to me. I mean, he ran that with a guy John Pollock, a good friend who who's also like, he, he's, he's such a good, he's a pro guy. He's a pro and, and can guide things. He's so funny and smart. But so I think that, that they really clicked well. And there were a lot of really funny people on that staff too. But yeah. Yeah. I, I think that to answer your question, it's always good, especially if you're dealing with somebody who's gonna put a little bit of their lives into it, to just mm-hmm. because I mean, frankly, you, you kind of want to like, connect with them too. Like, it's something that they can connect with. Right. Unless they don't wanna do it. Unless they wanna be completely a different person if they're being some version of themselves. Yeah.Michael Jamin:What's so odd is that you and I have never worked together, even though we've worked with so many of the same people, you know? Yeah. It seems, it seems like very odd that, you know, how how did that never happen? But how do you see, like, so okay, we are on strike. How do you see the business now? Like, what do you, like, what's your take on the past, I don't know, three to five years? You knowJonathan Fener:Everything's going great. It's great.Michael Jamin:Everything's perfect.Jonathan Fener: and just getting betterMichael Jamin:.Jonathan Fener:I, everybody knows what's going on. Yeah. no, I I think it, to me it feels like it's a massive sea change. Yeah. It really feels like even having lived through the first strike, like that was streaming was just kind of coming around and, you know, Netflix was a thing and, but now everything has completely been disrupted and mm-hmm. , I just think that I mean look, this is nothing new, but like, you know, to, to me, cable seemed to be working okay. And then streaming came in and it just seemed like there were no parameters. It's like all the streaming services come, came around. And I understood economically that like all the studios are gonna want to have their own thing mm-hmm. and not have to license it to anybody anymore. But without the structure of a, of a schedule, like a nightly schedule, it's just like, it just became a bottomless pit.Yeah. And so there was this five, you know, it, it was the, it was the old, it was the, the Wild West again. And there's a billion shows. And I, I, you know, some of these studios I guess were just like, wait, this is so expensive. Like a full staff for every show and we're making so many shows. We need to, now, now it's like we overspent now we need to back up a little bit. And then, but in the meantime, to me, I just felt like it was, like the rules got changed where there was a somewhat of a model in network television and even cable where it's like, we're gonna pick this show up for X number of episodes. We're gonna have this many people on staff. That's the way it's done. Mm-Hmm. . And then now the, it's like, oh, we have this new area of streaming. We're just gonna do things differently. Now we're gonna hire three people. Mm-Hmm. , or the guy that created the show is just gonna write 'em all and then shoot 'em all. And it, it just, I don't, it's, it's, you know, I mean, all I can know, all I can do is keep doing what I do, but it's, you know, it seems more, it, it really seems, it feels like the ground underneath us is that much more Yeah. Shaky. Really shaky.Michael Jamin:How do you, and what's your take? I don't know if you work a lot with, well you know, young, well, let's see. I actually, I have two questions I wanna ask you cuz your last, your last network show was probably was what The Mindy Project? Cause I haven't worked, I haven't worked in the network for a while. It's all been cable. Right.Jonathan Fener:The last network show I worked on was American HousewifeMichael Jamin:Oh. American House. So it's so interesting. Which wasn't even that long ago. And so you're working with young, there's bigger staffs on network. You're, they're bringing in younger writers. What's it like? What, what are the kids like? Do you think they're different these days on network shows?Michael Jamin:Because we had a hierarchy. We had, there was a pattern. There was a, you know, all broken.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I think it's probably better. I mean, I worked, I worked in some rough rooms and then I worked in some more, you know, I certainly, I don't feel like I ran a rough room. What do you mean?Michael Jamin:What do you mean by rough room? What were they like?Jonathan Fener:Just a, that the, the real hierarchy. Like when I was a staff writer, you were not really expected to talk very much. Right. It was kind of like sit and listen. Right. But and then I'd say I'd, I'd pitch something and they'd be like, not now. And I'd say, I'm sorry. And they'd say, don't be sorry. Just be quiet.Michael Jamin:. Don't be sorry. Don't let happenJonathan Fener:Again. Don't be sorry. Just be quiet. I, I, and like, look, that's the, that's the, it was always done with a joke. You know what I mean? Right. And, and like, I don't ever feel like I was treated cruelly. Mm. I mean, I mean, I guess I, I guess it was cruel that, you know, I did feel like I was held hostage and, you know, yeah. Going home at 6 30, 7 o'clock in the morning in, in rush hour traffic the wrong way. Like yeah. My nights and days were mixed up. But like, eventually what I was gonna say was I just feel like there was something to earning it a little bit. You know, I, I just feel like, you know, even even those first jobs, like, especially like Bright Coffman Crane, I remember there were certain things that you, like, they were big on floor pitching Right.On, on, on, on show night. And that's great experience. I mean, look, multi cams aren't around as much as they used to be, but like, I remember learning a ton. Like, I, I can still shoot back to the time we were on show night and a joke bombed, and then you just huddle up mm-hmm. and you're just staring at each other and everyone's thinking, and you gotta come up with an alt. And people are pitching stuff and it's like, and you pitch a joke and everybody laughs and you're like, oh my God, you're theMichael Jamin:Hero.Jonathan Fener:Amazing. And then, yeah. And then, and then they put it in and itMichael Jamin:Dies and it, and it dies. Yeah. That's what a flip joke. People listen. That's what a floor pitch is. I'm showing that on a multicam, you at the last minute throw a joke in after one bombs. SoJonathan Fener:Yeah. Right. And then you finally, you, you give up and you just pitch a joke with the word nipple in it. . And people laugh at that and you're like, ah, I hate myself. Yeah. But no, but, but I, I think that now, you know, ha like being the older guy and, and even, you know, running a show, like, there, there is a, there is a certain level of like, everybody has an equal voice mm-hmm. . And, which I think is good, you know, but I also think that there's, it's not that you are less than at all. To me it was always about like experience. Mm-Hmm. . Like, you, you just gotta, you know what it is, it's about, it's, there's, there's no substitute for being able to read the room. Yeah. And there are people sometimes that are younger and less experienced and they, they pitch an idea and no one says anything, which is like the night, it's, it's, you know, the worst is if someone says, that sucks. Right. But if you pitch a joke or a story and no one really like, jumps on it, no one Yes. Ands it, you know what, let it float away because Yeah. You know, and then if you re-pitch it and then you re-pitch it,Michael Jamin:You're gonna get yelled at, you'reJonathan Fener:Gonna get yelled at. Like, that's just not cool. And I feel like sometimes maybe people don't like that anymore. You know? Yeah. Like, you're not supposed to do.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I hear you. What, what? Surprised It's so hard. There's a huge learning curve on their job. And when someone pitches an idea, if it's a good idea, it really doesn't matter who it comes from, but it's pretty obvious when it's a good idea. The right. Like the, the senior writers are, oh, that's good. Right. And if you're new inexperienced, you just don't know what's, what's a good idea from a bad idea. And I think they sometimes get a little offended or hurt. It's no, it's, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's just the idea. It's not you, you know? Right. The idea didn't land.Jonathan Fener:Sometimes it's them. No. Sometimes it'sMichael Jamin:ThemJonathan Fener:. But yeah, it's, it best idea wins always, always, always. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Best idea. Gets you homework faster and so and so. Yeah. I know. Well, I was gonna ask you something else. Oh. Oh, that's, that's how I was gonna say we met, we met years ago. Cause you were running a show, which is an interesting thing that you did was said you were running a show called Awesome Town, but you were running it. Someone else with less experienced writer wrote it and you guys were brought on to supervisor it. Right,Jonathan Fener:Right, right.Michael Jamin:It was like, so talk about your experience doing that kind of stuff.Jonathan Fener:That was the first time we'd ever done that. We've, and we've done that a bunch just because I feel like my partner and I, that's not really something that a lot of people love to do, like run other people's shows. Everybody wants to, you know, get your own thing. And we were writing our own pilots at the time too. But if you get enough experience, honestly, you know, my feeling is you want to have as many skills as possible in this business because mm-hmm. , you know, you want to just have another arrow in your quiver.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jonathan Fener:That's the right term. But like, so i, if you can successfully help someone just guide the ship and it's their show and they've never done it before, cuz that's a really hard job.Michael Jamin:Were there creative struggles though, between you and them at all when you do this?Jonathan Fener:No, honestly, no. I really feel like it was this guy, Adam Ste. Hillel, who's like super nice guy. He he's like big feature guy now. I think he wrote Black Adam. Mm-Hmm. , he like, works with the Rock a lot and, and he created Undateable with Bill Lawrence too. Mm-Hmm. . So he's, he's had a bunch of stuff. No, he's very nice guy. Very funny. And it was actually kind of cool that he got this job on, it was basically just about the, these four like early twenties friends and negotiating life afterwards and they threw a lot of stuff. It's funny, I remember they, they picked the show up because I feel like a, b C was looking to do something in the younger space. Right. But it did, it was one of those shows. It wasn't, it was very low concept. And there was a whole opening teaser that we, I I always suspected, this is why it got picked up cuz it was very, it was very American pie.It was like kind of dirty and there was like a couple and somebody had peanut butter on them and a dog was looking and Right. You can imagine. So but I remember thinking like, this is why they picked it up because this is outrageous. There's no way they ever shoot this though. Right. Which is like, that's like an age old story in tv. It's like the thing they love about it. Mm-Hmm. is the thing they cut first. It's exactly right. You know, it's like you, you, you pick up a show called like Immortal because the, the lead character ha has been alive for a thousand years. Uhhuh. And then the first note is, can we make him immortal please? Yes,Michael Jamin:That's exactly right.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. but, and you do it cuz you're like, oh, they just they just picked up the show. They just gave me a budget and Right. But so they, they made a bunch of changes to this show and including changing that entire teaser. But it was, it was just an opportunity that came because again, like I think we had written a pilot for the studio that made it and they needed somebody we, like, we had just gone through, you had a deal,Michael Jamin:You probably had a deal at the time, an overall deal. Right.Jonathan Fener:I don't know if we had it like, you know what we did, I think we had just sold a pilot to like 20th Uhhuh . And it was like a very good experience, but we just, it just was one of those shows that like almost got there but didn't Yeah. But then, then they picked up all their other shows and they're like, oh, we're gonna pick up this show with these guys. And we had a good relationship with the development people that like, you know, maybe John and Josh can help with that. So that was awesome. That was, that was like, and I remember like, we cast whoever we want. Like we changed roles because we found, like I'd never seen Brett Gelman before and he came in and was so funny. We're like, we're putting him in this show somehow. He was easily 10 years older than everybody. Well, was supposed to be a coworker, Uhhuh, , ally Wong came in, we're like, Uhhuh, let's create a intern. But it was like, it, it, it was like, it was the first it was a good gig to get. And then from there we, we got a bunch more of those gigs to sort ofMichael Jamin:Like, see, that's, that's a talent, because a lot of, I think sometimes when you have a no, a young creator will create a show. Then they assign a showrunner, and sometimes the showrunner's like, well, listen, my name's on this too, and I don't want this to have, I don't have a stink on me if this is terrible. So they kind of turn into what they want it to be. It doesn't sound like you did that. It sounds like you were very much trying to realize the vision of the person who created these shows, which is nice of you.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. I mean, I don't, maybe that's just the way that we are. I mean, I just feel like that's the fir like, and I'm, look, by the way, that's probably a good way to get the gig, is to go have lunch with them and go, listen your show, man. We're just here to help you carry the water from here to there. Right. And we know how to do it. And but that it's the truth. I mean, honestly, I like, I don't want it to be bad, but like, you know, and like, I'll tell you what, I think I'll give you my opinion, but also like, again, I don't know anybody that could ever do that, show that job alone. Like, it's, it's miserable and not mis, you know what I mean? And we we owe, and plus, you know, you could relate to this too, just being, I mean, being on a writing staff is collaborative anyway, but being in a writing partnership, you just really learn how to negotiateMichael Jamin:Mm-Hmm. Jonathan Fener:Compromise. Mm-Hmm. and talking it out. And, you know, single writers tend to be really, you knowMichael Jamin:Yeah.Jonathan Fener:Hold onto their stuff cuz there's mm-hmm. Never any other counterpoints. So I feel like we have the right skillset forMichael Jamin:That. Yeah. There's also a sense of, there's so many decisions to be made. If I don't make this one decision, that's okay. I gotta make a million other decisions. So it's okay if I didn't, if I don't make this one decision, you know, there's a lot to do.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. I don't need to be in wardrobe. I always say that. I don't need to be, I don't need, I I you can do rack check. I don't need to do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. There's exactly, there's exactly, there's a ton. I, when we ran Marin, we, the the wardrobe people loved us cuz they chose us choices. And I go, what do you think, you know, well this one. And I said, well, why do you think that one, they gimme reason. I go, all right, sounds like you know what you're doing, . Sounds like you got a good idea there, so let's do what you say.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. I mean how, how many episodes did you do of Maryland?Michael Jamin:We did four seasons. I, I want, it was probably around 50. Cuz each show, each season was, I don't know, whatever, 12, 13 or something like that. Uhhuh . So, yeah. But that was I c and that was a pleasure because it was low budget. They just leave you alone. It was wonderful. So, yeah.Jonathan Fener:And I mean, did you finally that it was, was it hard to produce? Because I mean, how big was your staffMichael Jamin:The first season? So that was a show that was created by this guy Duncan Birmingham. We didn't create it, but he wrote the pilot. He was a young writer. He wrote the presentation and then with Mark, so that season, the first season when they picked it up, it was Mark Marin, who's very good writer, but had no writing experience for sitcoms. He's a, you know, standup, this guy Duncan Birmingham, who was a, a young guy who they just, they they could exploit. So he had no experience and it was me and my partner, and that was it. So we, the ones with any real sitcom experience. And then, but then as each season one, we picked up a couple more writers and then we rounded it out. But but it was a great, it was a wonderful experience, but the budget was tiny. The budget was, it was like nothing. It was nothing. Yeah. And we shot each episode in two and a half days, soJonathan Fener:Really?Michael Jamin:Yeah, it was, yeah. As long as someone's finger wasn't in front of the lens, we got it. , let's move it on. So yeah, that was, that was such a great experience. And, and, and no one remembers that. No one remembers, you know, like, hey, the show, it wasn't that perfectly lit. Yeah, that's okay. But people liked the writing. They like the acting. That's the important thing, you know. So what if the camera went like this a little bit ?Jonathan Fener:Right. my, yeah, my partner always was like, when you're like, he's like, they're doing laundry. They're paying their, they're paying their bills while they watch this. Like, they like the people. Oh,Michael Jamin:Oh, yeah.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. They're like, they're, they're, they're like, they're listening. They're half, you know, they're, they're not,Michael Jamin:Not even anymore. Now they're on their phones and watch. I mean, now they're really not watching the show. . He's Right. Cause like everyone, you know, Siebert, you say the same thing you'd say. Like Yeah, they're, they're reading People magazine, not any anymore. They're not, now they're on, they're watching the show and on TikTok and getting text messages, , they're not paying attention.Jonathan Fener:They're reading the live tweeting. Yeah. Of other people read, likeMichael Jamin:Watching the show for them, so. Right. It's an odd time, but yeah. So what do you s so what do, what excites you then going forward? What, as we, as we wrap it up, what is your, like what excites you now?Jonathan Fener:In entertainment?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Or just, yeah. As a, as a writer. Yeah.Jonathan Fener:I still, I mean, I like what I always liked, honestly. Like, I feel like right now I want to, the thing that I want to do is I, I want to try new things, but I also, I know this is like, but but, but, but also I feel like as I get older, like you have to, you have to always write what's sort of like, I don't know, is like personal to you. Like, I don't know, this is, because then it sort of seems inauthentic. Right? but having said that, like I think that I, I would really like to get back into animation mm-hmm. , I feel, I feel like I, I know it's like, I feel like features, like, like I feel like weirdly streaming has opened that up. Mm-Hmm. a little bit too, cuz like, you know, it's hard to get a movie out in the theaters. I mean, especially now. Yeah. it's not a Marvel thing or something like that. So like, there might be like avenues to go with with streaming movies and stuff like that. But like, I don't know. That's, I mean, it's, it's, it's, I I feel like I don't have any, a good answer to that question because I still really, like, I, I still feel like I always have ideas, Uhhuh, but and, and honestly like more often than not, like I'm looking to collaborate with more people. Yeah. Different people, you know, becauseMichael Jamin:Not necessarily on air talent, but writers as well.Jonathan Fener:Other writers. Yeah. Yeah. I just feel like, you know, if you're lucky you have a long career and mm-hmm. a lot of different types of careers and, you know, my partner and I always said like we we've sort of had an open marriage a little because mm-hmm. , we started out together, we, and, you know, you work very closely with a writing partner and, and we worked together for many, many years and then we sort of split on staff for a while, and then we came back together mm-hmm. for a while, and then now we're separate again. ButMichael Jamin:Was that hard for you when you're writing after you split to start writing alone? Let's say even on staff, cuz this is the first Okay. You usually, you have somebody to bounce an idea off of. Now you're, you're on, you know, you're looking at that blank page by yourself.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. Mm-Hmm. , it's hard to be in that. It's, it's, it's definitely hard. And I feel like I'm getting better at like, sort of reaching out to mm-hmm. other writers and just sort of like, can you look at, because it's like my wife can't hear it anymore, you know? Yeah. Like, go walk into the kitchen. It's like, would this character say that? She's like, I don't know, like, what are you talking about? So I have to, I I I just feel like you have to, I guess you, you learn to sort of like mute your ego a little bit mm-hmm. and just sort of like, let o let other, like, sometimes you just have to talk it out and, and that's what a partner was for, you know. Yeah. but I don't even know if I answered your question. That'sMichael Jamin:Okay. We're just, we're we're chatting. What about, what about advice for aspiring writers? What do you, what do you tell them? Either about the craft or about the business?Jonathan Fener:I mean, to get in nowMichael Jamin:Mm-Hmm. .Jonathan Fener:I think that starting out the, the best thing about now to me mm-hmm. , is that it seemed like in the beginning when we started, it was really all about like, what's the speck of the big show.Michael Jamin:Mm-Hmm. ,Jonathan Fener:Which there's a, there's an art to that, you know, beca

Today on the Listing Agent Lifestyle podcast, we're talking with Sean Caldwell, a seasoned investor based in North Carolina who generates a lot of business by sourcing off-market deals from distressed homeowners. We had a great conversation about his success using direct mail and cold calling, and we looked at his offers to help homeowners who are struggling financially. We also talked about how he finds and uses the data that help identify potential buyers and the data needed for investors to stay ahead of the various foreclosure procedures. This market is constantly changing, and it's interesting to hear Sean's approach to success while helping people in difficult situations.   HIGHLIGHTS Seasoned real estate investor Sean Caldwell sources off-market deals through demographic prospecting and finding distressed homeowners. Strategies include direct mail and cold calling, identifying homeowners over 65 who receive government assistance, have a mortgage-free property, and have a dated house with needed repairs. County governments provide data on delinquent property taxes, allowing investors to identify potential buyers. Various solutions for financially struggling homeowners include partnering with a reverse mortgage company or crafting an effective letter series to engage with them. Understanding the schedules of each county for foreclosure cases helps investors stay ahead of the curve. Approaching homeowners compassionately and providing guidance during tough times is crucial. Creating an educational guide for homeowners on when to refinance can help identify those who would benefit from a reverse mortgage or selling their house. Engaging with distressed homeowners through innovative marketing strategies for foreclosure prevention can make a difference in their lives and grow the investor's real estate portfolio. Understanding the homeowner's real desire and approaching them in a way that makes them feel safe and secure is essential. Investing in real estate with empathy and providing solutions for struggling homeowners can lead to personal and financial success.     Links: Show Notes GoGoAgent.com Be a Guest Listing Agent Lifestyle Book Listing Agent Scorecard                                                                    Transcript   Dean Jackson Sean. Sean Caldwell Good morning. Dean Jackson Well, there we are. How are you? Sean Caldwell Well, how are you doing? Dean Jackson I am good. Well, here we are. We've got the whole hour And I'm excited to hear what you're up to. Diane is telling me just a little bit about what you do, but I wanna hear as a whole the whole story here. Sean Caldwell Sure. So I am a real estate investor I'm based here in North Carolina. Dean Jackson Mhmm. Sean Caldwell And we typically will either wholesale bills or we'll buy them and keep them and then owner finance them.   Dean Jackson Okay. Sean Caldwell And we're typically sourcing our deals off market. So our marketing is this is geared toward more, I would say, demographic prospecting of -- Mhmm. Dean Jackson -- Sean Caldwell more to geographical. So we're looking or, you know, signs of distress, whether that be issues with mortgage or taxes or dealing with tenants that have evictions or not she is  Dean Jackson the Sean Caldwell tenants, but dealing with landlords, dealing with eviction, and just any kind of distress situation that a homeowner would find themselves in. Those are typically the people that we approach. And our offers usually, it's you know, we'll send them a letter or a postcard and you know, it's just an offer to purchase their house, and we go into all the details about you know, all the benefits that we offer to them. Mhmm. It's it works, but I mean, for what for the effort that we have to undertake, it's I mean, it's just so much just from the cost of it. Dean Jackson Yeah. Sean Caldwell The response rate is oftentimes really low. We get a lot of people calling us out. It just it just Dean Jackson You're not the only investors in North Carolina looking for Sean Caldwell No. No. That's not that. No. Dean Jackson There used to be and it used to be a little less competitive, but there are so many people now that are doing the same thing. So especially when you're using trigger data, you don't you're not you don't have a clean runway. There. Right? You've got everybody all over it. So are you so what's the kinda go-to thing now? What's the thing that's working the best for you?   Sean Caldwell Well, direct mail, it it it's what's working best.   Dean Jackson Right. Especially when you have visible prospects. Right? Like, if you know somebody -- Right. -- gotta tell you, you know, whatever. Mhmm.   Sean Caldwell Right. Yeah. So that's work that's worked well. Mhmm. And we've also had six successes with cold calling. I don't like it. I prefer for the prospect to reach out to us when they're ready, but -- Mhmm. Dean Jackson -- Sean Caldwell we have had success with it. Dean Jackson So Uh-huh. So how do you let's talk a couple of things that you know, who's the ideal prospects for you here? Like, who is what's the if we could, you know, find the right -- Yes. Person. So who's ideal?   Sean Caldwell So our best prospect is someone who is on the verge of a tax foreclosure. Mhmm. They are typically sixty five or older, sixty five years or older, they may or may not have some adult child that helps them out. Mhmm. Typically, they own their home, free and clear, are receiving some form of government assistance, whether that be Social Security or any other kind of benefit. Mhmm. And that's the primary source of income. Mhmm. On occasion, we'll run into a widow. And, you know, her husband was the one that took care of everything and now she's kinda stranded and doesn't really know what to do. Okay. These houses are typically dated. And these are oftentimes  Dean Jackson these are people who are living in these houses. They're living in the house. Sean Caldwell Correct. Yeah. Dean Jackson I didn't. So Right. Okay. Sean Caldwell Right. Yeah. So these are owner occupants who lived in the home for you know, typically thirty years and longer. Mhmm. And with that has come, obviously, a lot of deferred care. Things are just you know, they got the same bathroom and kitchen set up than they had in the seventies. I mean, it just you know, so they it's dated. It's functional, but it's dated, or if, you know, if they do if everything outside of that, there's typically some repairs that are needed. You know, they need a new roof, but they don't have the money or, you know, the grandkids, you know, were playing and they kicked the hole in the wall and there's a big patch of that kind of thing. So tend to be a lot of deferred care. Mhmm.   Dean Jackson And so do you what triggers them as a prospect for you? Like, how do you get your data? Okay. So this is somebody yeah.   Sean Caldwell Sure. So we we're able to source it directly from various County level governments. Mhmm. Use it to tax the tax assessor. We'll we'll make those lists available of people who are delinquent in their property taxes. So we're able to    Dean Jackson Mhmm.     Sean Caldwell to source it that way. Mhmm.   Dean Jackson So this is just this is you can get a list of like, all these things are knowable. Things. Right? These just what you -- Right. -- source. We build a list of people who are sixty five plus who are hundred percent equity -- Right. -- no no mortgage have been in the property for a number of years. And have tax arrears?   Sean Caldwell Yeah. So so we the counties will just give us the list of the properties and all those deep the details regarding the property tax situation. Dean Jackson Yeah. Sean Caldwell From our from us having talked to a lot of these folks and sort of build out a profile of them, we've been able to get all that other data. Okay. There's there's yeah. They don't they don't give us all of that sort of personal -- Right. Dean Jackson -- Sean Caldwell that I don't find it. They just say, hey, this person this property as five thousand dollars in unpaid taxes. Uh-huh. And, you know, six to eight months, they're gonna you know, they they're gonna pay it or we're gonna auction our house off. Dean Jackson And so how long does it take for somebody if they're in tax arrears how long will until they sell? Or what is that? Mhmm. Sean Caldwell Yes. So, typically, you have to be at least a couple years behind And the county will typically work with you to, you know, to try to resolve the situation. And if within, let's say, two to three years, the homeowner fails to pay their delinquent property taxes. Accounties will then assign that property to a third party, usually legal service, or in most cases, a law firm. And that law firm will then carry out the actual foreclosure Dean Jackson -- Sean Caldwell Mhmm. -- once it gets a Dean Jackson tax lien certificate or whatever? Sean Caldwell Correct. Yes. Mhmm. In North Carolina, we're a deed state, but, like, in Florida, it's an I know it's a lien state. So, yeah, they'll sell the deed at the auction. Okay. And that and that process, once it gets so we we typically will target those people that we know once that case has been assigned to the attorney. Mhmm. Typically, counties will move forward with the sale between six to eight months. That's the average. Okay. Dean Jackson And how much are the homes worth typically? What's the range that you're looking at? Sean Caldwell Oh, I would say somewhere, maybe around a hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Mhmm. In some areas because we like I said, we don't target, like, specific neighborhoods. In some areas, that have been gentrified, some of the property values can be, you know, two or three hundred thousand dollars. But I would say, typically, for these properties, somewhere right around a hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Dean Jackson Okay. And how broad an area do you cover? Like, where where Sean Caldwell I cover yeah. Mhmm. So I cover Western North Carolina. And within that territory, they're we cover about twenty different counties. Mhmm. But like I said, we don't the reason we cover so many counties is not by choice, but by default because these are these law firms that are handling these foreclosures, they are responsible for those areas. So -- Mhmm. Dean Jackson -- Sean Caldwell we get the data from them, and that's kinda how we make the decision about you know, what areas are focusing on. Dean Jackson I got you. And so how what's the scope of this? How many how many boxes homes are there, you know, that -- Yeah. -- get data for it. Sean Caldwell Sure. We so right now, we get our data from two sources and between those two sources. On any given month, there's maybe five hundred properties that are within that tax foreclosure timeline.    Dean Jackson Okay.   Sean Caldwell Where Dean Jackson So five hundred of them a month in those twenties. Counties.  Sean Caldwell Yes, Dean Jackson sir. Yeah. And then when you get those five hundred, you put them through another filter looking for that they're sixty five, that they've got a hundred percent equity left there. You don't you just go no matter what -- Yeah. -- if everybody is. Sean Caldwell Yeah. And right. And the reason why is because again, we've collected so much data. We interview a lot of these people when we're talking to them. So you know, just based on what we know about the average person that we talked to, Dean Jackson Yeah. Sean Caldwell You know, we kinda have that profile. But to answer your question, we do have software that will we'll upload the addresses in and -- Yes. Dean Jackson -- Sean Caldwell from there, it'll tell us, you know, what the equity position is, if there's Dean Jackson Gotcha. Sean Caldwell Any liens or anything like that? How, you know, how long they've had to home, all those kind of details? Mhmm. Dean Jackson So how do the numbers play out from with your current system there? So you get five hundred of them. Right now. And then what is that trigger for you? What do you do with those five hundred? You mail them Yeah. We'll mail them. Email them. Yeah. Letter or postcard, what it will email them right away? Sean Caldwell A letter. We'll mail them a letter. And we'll send them that piece, and then we'll every month, we'll send them another piece is kind of, like, a continuation sequence. Mhmm. And we'll do that over the course of six months. And every month we'll sort of track in the system to see, you know, where they stand in terms of the tax foreclosure process. Dean Jackson I gotcha. And so is there when what kind of response do you get to the letters that you mail now. Your offer you mail. The letter, if I -- Yeah. -- summarize it, is hey, we'd like to buy your house or, hey, we noticed you've got tax problems and we'd like to buy your house. Uh-huh. Sean Caldwell Correct. Yes. Dean Jackson Okay. Sean Caldwell And so in terms of response rate, we're usually at maybe half of one percent. Mhmm. No. I yeah. I wanna say that was the last one we did. So, like, yeah, I mean, Dean Jackson we're three to return responses for the five hundred letters? Sean Caldwell Correct. Correct. Dean Jackson Uh-huh. Sean Caldwell And it's I mean, it's that that's a lot of pressure to, you know, to produce something when you only get Dean Jackson the letters how many letters do you think they got? Just I'm curious. I'm interested in that. Yeah. Like, so in North Carolina. You know, I wonder I wonder how many people got the data that you're getting and mail them a letter. I wonder what their mailbox looks like. Sean Caldwell It's it's it's crowded. Dean Jackson Yeah. Sean Caldwell I would say so I'm just outside of Charlotte and Charlotte is, you know, it's I wanna say we're in the top five market in terms of real estate in the country. So they're they may get ten twenty, you know, solicitations. Dean Jackson We got many people saying, hey. Choose me. Choose me. I'll buy your house. I'll buy your house. Right? Sean Caldwell Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dean Jackson And what do you think is the range of the approaches that people are taking? Like, do you think that you know, is anybody have you seen any of the Sean Caldwell the marketing that Yeah. Dean Jackson Have you have you Sean Caldwell Yeah. Yes. I have. So so historically, what what people do is they will they'll go to an online print shop. And -- Mhmm. Dean Jackson -- Sean Caldwell they've got the pre made templates and you just pick a template, upload your list, and they take care of the rest. So -- Yeah. Dean Jackson -- Sean Caldwell in many cases, the homeowner's gonna receive the same marketing piece and same message and Dean Jackson Yeah. You think, like, ten people in the same coaching program or something. They they read the same book or took the same course, and they're saying cut and paste the same letter. Yeah. And then Yeah. We did a yellow envelope for one of the pink Sean Caldwell envelope for what Yeah. No. We we did Dean Jackson Yeah. Sean Caldwell Yeah. We did take it a step further. I did have a copywriter to actually put together a letter series for us, but Uh-huh. It just didn't seem to make much of a difference. I've gotten, you know, positive responses from people, you know, they'll say, you know, I, you know, I appreciate your letter. It's you know, it's well crafted. They most of their comments are about sort of structure of it and how well put together it is. Nothing about selling the house. It hasn't it hasn't account that has not it led to any increase in business. Dean Jackson Okay. Sean Caldwell So and and that's why that's why I started looking into to your Gogo agent program because -- Uh-huh. Looking to do something that's gonna be different. Dean Jackson Right. I hear you. So I'm interested in if we were to take And is it pretty consistent, like, just five hundred a month across the board, plus or minus, or is any is there a particular time of year that's that's Sean Caldwell No. But no. If you count yeah. So each county, you know, they have their own schedules for how they wanna move forward with cases. So it's really sort of based on each county. Dean Jackson So what happened with these people this is what I'm curious about. If we were to go back to December of two thousand nineteen, we'll go back you know, we're in January twenty-one now. So we're to go back to, like, the or even the class of January. Of two thousand and twenty. What what's happened with those five hundred? People who you would have shown up on the list in January last year. What sort of, you know, happened to them? Sean Caldwell Yeah. So the event that typically takes place is some loss of income that could have been that you know, they were tired and they're on, you know, like I mentioned, fixed income. So you know, what they once were able to afford. They're no longer able to afford. It may have been a situation where a spouse was responsible for paying a certain number or say certain percentage of the bills. And because that spouse is passed away. They no longer have that. Mhmm. I've had folks call who you know, they had to take care of a an ill relative and that put them out of work. And so, you know, they've had a tough time sort of been able to manage their financial responsibility. So it's usually someone being becoming ill job loss. Dean Jackson Yeah. Yeah. No. I understand that. I was asking -- Okay. -- what's happened to those five hundred homes in about twelve months since they showed up on that list. But I appreciate you telling me how they got on. Okay. Sean Caldwell That's good. Dean Jackson But what I'm asking is in if it's been if it's five hundred a month, then, right, in January of last year, one year ago, there were five hundred people that showed up on that list for the first time. And what I'm curious about is what happened with those five hundred people between men and now. How many of them sold the house? How many of them rallied and, you know, saved it or whatever would be the outcome -- Sure. -- for those five different people.  Sean Caldwell Okay. So -- Yeah. -- was able to get data from an attorney that deals and foreclosures. And what they said is that they told us that about thirty percent of those people that are on that list will end up having their property foreclosed on so that the option. The remaining seventy percent we'll do usually one of three things. They'll borrow the money from a family member or a friend and keep the house. They'll get a loan from a bank or something like that. They'll sell it. Or they'll file for bankruptcy. Mhmm. Dean Jackson And how many of them would sell the house? Do you That Sean Caldwell part that part I don't know. We haven't tracked it that far out It do all Dean Jackson are you to do for you to see you've got access to the MLS. Yes. Right? So it'd be interesting for you to track the that list of people, those addresses, versus the sale records for two thousand and twenty and see how many of them have actually sold. In the twelve months. And when to give you a sense of what the timing is between when they show up on the list, and when something happens. K. Because that to give you a good sense of how to intervene sort of thing. Have you thought of partnering with a reverse mortgage company in terms of the partnering for the marketing stuff because they're either gonna do one of the two things. Right? Like, they're either gonna that could be a solution for people. Do you think some of them go down that path? Sean Caldwell I'm certain that there's a percentage of them that do. I've just not ever, you know, had a conversation with them. But I've I've heard about people looking in a reverse mortgage. So I'm sure there's an opportunity to collaborate there.   Dean Jackson Right. Because these people they've got equity and they've got they need to do something. Right? And they're they old enough to qualify. And it's nonqualify. I mean, the only thing they need is age to qualify. Age and equity is really all that stuff. That matters, I guess. But I suppose they've gotta be able to pay the taxes. But that could be an interesting you know, way to do some joint marketing there. Right? Because that's why I'm curious about what the other what possible outcomes are so that you can see you know, kind of filter people into the things. If they're going to be foreclosed, that means that none of the guys like you would have got those properties. Is that right? Or would you buy it in foreclosure? Your goal is to buy it before Sean Caldwell for Dean Jackson free foreclosure. Yeah. Sean Caldwell Yes. Yeah. So if we if we don't if they don't sell to us before the auction, then, you know, then yeah. There's guys that will buy at the auction. Dean Jackson Yeah. Sean Caldwell But we, you know, we like I said, just having done it enough times, you know, most of these people, this is this is their retirement. This is the next day. This is all that they have. So we tried to you know you know, create an opportunity for them to get a benefit from that equity before they lose it at the auction and get nothing. Dean Jackson Right. Right. And so is that the because they're not gonna get anything at the auction. What kind of a price discount? Are you buying the properties? What are you finding?   Sean Caldwell Yes. So we'll typically you know, if we buy it too to keep it, we'll typically buy I mean, we can buy up to a hundred and five percent of the value if we're gonna hold it and own or finance it. Mhmm. If we wanna just flip it to another investor. Usually, we're gonna be somewhere around fifty sixty five cents on the dollar. Dean Jackson Uh-huh. And Sean Caldwell And so that's those are the sort of the metrics that we look at -- Mhmm.  Dean Jackson -- Sean Caldwell and then on what strategy that we're gonna use.  Dean Jackson Mhmm. And most of the time, I mean, if they're if you're gonna pay a hundred and five percent or pay marketing value, it's pretty much a property that is in good shape and is ready. Sean Caldwell Yes. Dean Jackson Ready thing? Yeah. Mhmm. Okay. So that's great. Now, so I wonder what one of the things that's kind of a an opportunity, I think, is to think about what's going on in their minds. Right? Like, if you think about if you take the position of someone who's going through this right now. They're getting first of all, before they got it's been nothing but bad news for a long time, right, to get to this point. Because how long have they been in arrears Sean Caldwell years. Dean Jackson Before they get to the point that they officially on the list or whatever that you know, they escalate to that level. Sean Caldwell Yeah. It'll have been a couple of years. Those three years. Dean Jackson Right. So so there's been nothing but if it's, you know, government tax stuff, we're not gonna call them, but there's gonna be nothing but bad news in the mailbox. For two years. Right? Notice. Final notice. This is urgent importance. Right? This is your final warning. Following that to us. So they're used to getting that bad news, and they've probably built a calus on their soul from being the negative assault of all the stuff. Right? They're, you know, adrenaline resistant on that basis. And so here now when it switches, now they're on the list and all of a sudden that unleashes this flood of, you know, lettuce by your by your house, there's. Right? Mhmm. Sell to me. Like, what what's the reasoning? What would be the most common letter if we were to take the letter? Sean Caldwell Yeah. Yeah. So the most common letter that an investor would send to a homeowner would be, you know, we pay cash. We close quickly. We buy as-is no real estate commissions. You know, you know, there's usually some Top dollar. Dean Jackson We pay top dollar. Sean Caldwell Yeah. Yeah. You know. Mhmm. And usually there's, you know, there's the use of certain colors and certain language to -- Mhmm. Dean Jackson -- Sean Caldwell to, I guess, to get them to wanna take action immediately. Dean Jackson Right. Sean Caldwell So there's usually some kind of limited time offer or Dean Jackson Call today. Yeah. Oh, we're trying to reach you or hand written or I wanna buy your house or they're -- Yeah. -- doing all of that stuff. And are they getting text numbers and stuff too? Or Sean Caldwell Yes. Yes. They're doing it's the real estate business, it it's changed so much. And -- Yeah. Dean Jackson -- Sean Caldwell because there's so much money that's made, there are people that see this as a business opportunity. So there's all kind of service providers offering text messaging, voice conferencing, all that -- Yeah. Dean Jackson --   Sean Caldwell tracing, door knocking, social media stuff. I mean, you name it.   Dean Jackson Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I wonder, you know, if you think about the we had a lot of success when in kind of the first refinance, you know, buzz. When interest rates are going down, down, down, maybe just ten, twelve years ago. When the interest rate everybody was refinanced, refinanced, refinanced. Right? Everybody's screaming. Rates have never been lower now at the time. Refinance, no closing costs, you know, save money, all of that stuff. Everybody getting that message, they didn't really know what the whether it made sense for them. Right? And we did a we put together a report called how to know when it makes sense to refinance. And we started offering that as a way that's really a you know, an education kind of thing for people. Because now they're not you're not saying you know, you're not trying to convince people to refinance. You're offering them a guide to know if it makes sense. Right. And so I wonder in this situation here is do people really know what they're options are, you know?   Sean Caldwell No. No. No. They don't. Typically, they'll they'll say I know I'm in a rough situation. Yeah. I wanna keep my house Yeah. But I don't know what to do about it. I don't know how to how to solve this problem.   Dean Jackson Right. And it's kind of an interesting like, if that's where they're coming from, wouldn't it be an interesting situation to approach it that way. Like, if the five hundred people, they're you're mailing out saying, let me buy your house. And you're getting half a percent, you mean, two or three of them because you're reaching out to them about your selfish desire. Right? That's what you're you're taking your position on it. Right? And even though you're catching it in a way that's making it seem like it's an advantage for them, that if they do wanna sell, that you are, you know, go pay cash and you close quickly and you, you know, all of that stuff. But their if their real desire is to stay, what would be some of the paths that you know, like, if you're thinking about how would you be able to like, if you partnered with a reverse mortgage company, even just as a joint venture from the marketing standpoint. That you're going into those things that if they're at least if they feel like the homeowners, that there's a chance that they might be able to keep their house this way. They might be willing to engage in the dialogue. Right? Which is really more important. And if there, then figure out that that's not going to work that you've already started a relationship with them and just say, well, we could just buy your house. You know? Now that that's really I think when you think about it, that way of starting down the path that they really that they want to go on. Like, imagine that your depends on your approach to it or you come from whether you look at it as you look at them keeping the house as your competition or whether you look at it as your opportunity to build relationship with them. Sean Caldwell I get what you're what you're saying. Dean Jackson Like, is that when you say that immediately, like, is your thought though that, well, I don't wanna make it easy for them to keep the house because then that's I'm not gonna be able to buy it. Sean Caldwell Well, no. No. And again, it's because, you know, we just we talked to so many of them that I know that that their ability to come up with the money is when to not. Dean Jackson Right. Sean Caldwell You know, if you're sixty five years old, you're retired, you're living on a fixed income, we got core credit, where would the money come from? Right? And so I know that the chances of it happening are slim to none. Right. So so, yeah, I I I understand, you know, your thought process behind that to sort of Dean Jackson -- Mhmm. -- Sean Caldwell sort of have that be the sort of the beginning of the building of the relationships. Dean Jackson Yes. Is leading to where they are, which is keep your house. Right? So I'll I'll tell you, like, I'll share something with you years ago. I wrote a book with a marriage counselor. He I met this guy in Texas who'd been doing nothing but saving marriages for forty five years when I met him at me at seventy six. And we wrote a book called stop your divorce. And if for somebody because in most divorces, one person doesn't want it. Most of the time, it's somebody you know, in a lot of cases, it's a mutual that, hey, well, let's just go our separate ways kinda thing. But in many cases, it's one person wants the divorce and the other one doesn't. And that person is billing and wants to do everything they can to keep the merits, to stop the divorce to win them back. Right? Now the the words when you see that stop your divorce, are really attractive to somebody in that situation. And The thing about it is that what Homer did was counseling with people. And the thing that was the magic of it was everybody was completely happy at the end because that's ultimately, what they really want is they don't he gets them to see that it's not that they wanna stop the doors. They wanna be happy. First of all. Right? And so in order to stop the divorce, in many cases, which they were able to, you have to get to a point where you don't need the divorce. You mean, you don't need it to work out. Right? And most of the time, people are frantic and addicted to the other person. But then if they can get to a point where they don't need them, to come back, but they would prefer them to come back. That's the position where the other person now feels safe enough or in the you know, that they can work on the relationship. But when the person who's being left is pursuing and chasing, and trying to convince the other person, you know, don't leave me. I'm I'll change. I promise I'll change I can do better ideas. What about the kids? Come on. Think about the kids. Think about our family. All of those things trying to convince them that they should do something other than what they wanna do, which is to leave right now. And what Homer suggested to people is he would explore that first to get rid of that, you know, neediness for it and then be in a position to make a rational decision. Because often when they get to that point, then they rationally realize that that person's an asshole. That's not the person for me. Right? And there's plenty of people that would be much better for me, so they're happy. But they weren't ready to hear that message early on. Right? That's not the message that they're really looking for right now. And so I think the same thing could apply here that if you were somehow keeping the message of keep your house and helping to educate someone on all the options that they could have to keep their house. And then when they realize none of those options are viable, that there you are as the option for getting rid of the house, getting rid of the problem. Sean Caldwell Gotcha. Dean Jackson Okay. Like, is anybody is anybody approaching them with a message of keep your house? Sean Caldwell No. No. No. And we and to your point, I've actually put together it's a it's just two pager. Dean Jackson Mhmm. Sean Caldwell But it actually goes into detail about the different ways that a homeowner might be able to keep their home. And Dean Jackson -- Yes. Sean Caldwell And so we go through, you know, one of the options being to get a loan, bankruptcy, you know, appealing their tax value. Their -- Yeah. -- different counties have different deferment programs where you know Like, when people are Dean Jackson mhmm. When people are act looking for options, like, I might take an approach of this of putting together that guide or putting together information that would be the twenty twenty one North Carolina foreclosure rights guide or something like that. Right? That is showing to people what they can and can't do our tax sale rights or guidelines? Or yeah. You see what I'm saying? That it's like I'm sorry. I just I need to get this I need to look for a loophole here kind of thing. Right? That's we need to be saved by a technicality. It says right here that you can't You know what I'm saying? Sean Caldwell Yeah. Yeah. Dean Jackson So people know their rights or know their things. In that way, you say that's why you can you know, if you or your spouse are have received a notice of tax deficiency or a foreclosure. Notice read this, you know. Almost like it's a you're an advocate for them. Right. You're yeah, you're sending a message as an advocate for them. Because it what we're looking for out of those five hundred people, you've got to find five star prospects. Right? And so when I look at it that I'm looking for five star prospects who are First of all, willing to engage in the dialogue. And number two, they're friendly and cooperative. And number three, they know what they want. And you know what they want, and they're it's realistic, what they want. Right? Then number four, that they're ready to get it, and number five that they'd like us to help. And so the approach that all these letter centers are taking is starting at the bottom with the prescription. Let me buy your house. Sell me your house. No. Sell me your house. But we pay top dollar. We do too. I mean, they're all you could switch out the letterheads and just put the content of the letters, and it wouldn't make any difference to anybody, they're all saying the same thing. Right? Sean Caldwell Yep. Dean Jackson And it just feels to me, like, if you could get fifty of them to engage that, that would be a better outcome. Right? Sean Caldwell Yes. Yeah. You know, it's funny you bring that up. I was I was actually What's it? Nestle Balioma? I I I mean, Nestle Balioma. Look. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And looked at their model as far as what they do. And they do a lot of the attorneys will offer up a guide, and it's all the in and out about it. And -- Yeah. and then at the end, it's, you know, you know, if if you've got this situation here are the things you need to do and here's what you need to pick out for. Yeah. And that that it's fun. That's actually what I was working on. It's So you just you just confirmed that I that I'm moving in the right direction because it's actually something I've been thinking about doing and I actually started putting it together. Dean Jackson Well, good. Wow. So you're on your way. If you can make it seem like it's a, you know, an a neutral information objective source of information. Sean Caldwell Yeah. Yeah. There's no really though. Mhmm. Yeah. There's no there's it's very little selling in there. But it's -- Right. like, I think we put, like, in the beginning, just, you know, what is tax foreclosure you know, what are, you know, what are the what's the timeline? What are your rights? You know? Mhmm. So stuff like that, I mean. And then at the end, I think that's kinda where I was tripped up. It's like, well, how do you like, how do you hire a ball on this and, you know, move to the next, you know, the next conversation. Dean Jackson Well, it's much easier to keep a conversation going when you've engaged with someone, when you have their attention. It's much easier to shift a conversation somewhere once you've started it. Harder to start it. You know? That's why when you start somebody going down that path, of keeping the house or the options for exploring those options. You have their attention because that's what their attention is pursuing right now. Sean Caldwell Okay. So I guess, just from a, I guess, like, it's just a mechanical standpoint. So let's say we put together, I put together a report a twenty twenty one North Carolina foreclosure Drive. And -- Mhmm In that you know, make it, as you say, neutral and just provide a lot of information that that they would be interested in knowing. Dean Jackson Yep. So they have their state and federal government information that's available, that's copyright free that, you know, is freedom of information that you could use and distribute. Sean Caldwell Right. So let's say if we once we let's so let's say we set up a landing page and let's say, sort of follow the Gogo agent model and put together a postcard. Dean Jackson Yep. Sean Caldwell With that report as the lead, the lead, the generator -- Yeah. they can call in or they can request it through the landing page. How would you continue that conversation on after they have requested that report. Dean Jackson Yep. So that then you wanna engage with someone. Right? So once somebody raises their and then the next thing that you're gonna want is to like, if I the mechanism that I would use when you've got their physical address. So when they when you mail the postcard, I would send them to a landing page where they can fill out their information to get the the guide, which would include their email address. Which you might not have in this record. Right? So now you respond then to them. Now you can, you know, engage in a dialogue by email. What Sean Caldwell what I guess that's where I'm where I'm going. This is Dean Jackson -- Yeah. -- Sean Caldwell what like, how would I educate what would I educate them on and, I guess, try to motivate them on? Because would I would it be a situation where you didn't you know, you'd say, you know, continue to sort of talk through all the particular about all the different options that are available to them? Or Dean Jackson Yeah. Exactly. That's the thing, you know, is that if but if you ask them a question. Like, what I would do is to think is immediately when they respond. You can, you know, send them the guide. And along with the guide, you can send them you know, the option also of, you know, here are some options for you. If you wanna do this, here's a government agency that you could talk to. If you wanna explore a reverse mortgage, here's somebody that you could talk to. If you wanna just sell your house, we could buy it. We could sell it. We could buy it within twenty-four hours. Would you just presenting it as an option? Sean Caldwell Right. Dean Jackson Now it seems like what would that up? What would that look like? How much would you know, then you're saying to people, it gives you a we give you a pinpoint price analysis. We'll give you tell you exactly what we would buy your house for. Sean Caldwell K. And just and just kind of and mimicking the goggle agent. You've got three different a three different Yeah. Dean Jackson Whenever you're ready. Yeah. Whenever you're ready, there's three ways we can help you. Sean Caldwell Okay. Okay. Dean Jackson I might look at putting all that information in the guide into an information, and they do, like, a Zoom webinar, you know, where you could bring a foreclosure attorney and a reverse mortgage specialist. And you all on there to kind of educate people. You know? They may wanna take their chances and put their house on the market traditionally, you know? Sean Caldwell Right. Dean Jackson That's an option. Sean Caldwell That right. And that was again, that's what sort of interest me in the Gogo agent -- Yeah.  Sean Caldwell program was because I said, I think it, like, Well, if somebody's in this situation and I and, you know, obviously, that's probably not the conversation they're having right now. But my thinking was, well, if they're looking to if they're in a tax foreclosure, and they're thinking about selling. You know, maybe I you know, maybe the poke maybe they're finding out what their houses worth would you know, would work. Right. From what you're saying, it sounds like perhaps approaching it from a different angle and sort of focusing in on the different way that they might be able to keep their house might be a better way to go,  Dean Jackson especially to get the conversation going.  Sean Caldwell Right. Right. Okay.   Dean Jackson Right? Because they're gonna that's what they want. They wanna pursue that, and it'd be into your advance to be and make you feel good to be helpful if in case -- Right. -- they can save it. Sean Caldwell Sure. Okay. So in that, like, in the follow-up, would you take that time to sort of discuss, I guess, more in-depth -- Okay. some of the different options that they have to keep the house? Or would you talk about just, like Dean Jackson I would. I could yeah. We could still cover  Sean Caldwell that overall.  Dean Jackson Talk about the well, you talk about all the logistics, the how it happens, what the exactly what the options are. But then you then you're transitioning now into advice or strategy or, you know, an approach to figure out what they're going to do, you know? Sean Caldwell Okay. Dean Jackson Okay. Yeah. And I mean, if you said if somebody asked the thing was if somebody downloaded the guide, then you send them the initial message that here's where you can download the guide and here's some other videos on this and whenever you're ready, here's three ways I can help you. And then the next morning, send a quick message to them, like a personal message, you know, to them saying, you know, hey, Sean, are you gonna be selling your house or are you hoping to keep it? Just something that's short, personal, and expecting a reply, you know. And that might not be the right words, but something like that.  Sean Caldwell Yeah. Okay. Okay. Dean Jackson And it may be, you know, but that's the thing is you're ultimately a sorting question, you know. Yeah. Is your house for sale now, or are you hoping to keep it? Sean Caldwell Okay. Dean Jackson Or are you going to be staying? Or once, you know, you start thinking playing around with what those options are? Sean Caldwell K. Dean Jackson And I think that might be a good way to like, I would expect you would get more than half a percent response to something like that too. Sean Caldwell Yes. I do. Dean Jackson Just because it's so different from what they're used to getting. You know? Sean Caldwell Okay. Dean Jackson It's almost like you're on their path. That's oh, what's this as an option? And it's so different than what everybody else is saying to them too. Sean Caldwell Yes. It is. K. Okay. Well, it sounds like I've got some work to do. Dean Jackson Yeah. What I would also be interested in for you. Is to take the five hundred from January of last year and do a little analysis and see how many sold in foreclosure, how many sold on their own, how many stayed, you know, what happened? Sean Caldwell Okay. Dean Jackson Yeah.   Sean Caldwell Here we go. And   Dean Jackson maybe you don't need to take all five hundred, but you take a sample of a hundred.   Sean Caldwell I I get you.   Dean Jackson Yeah. Just to get a sense of what the reality is, you know. And if they haven't, so that may make sense to reach out, back out to the ones from last year.   Sean Caldwell Yes. Yeah. That it would be. Because, you know, like I said, these these are these people have lived in the home, out of them raised their children, and it it's you know, they're connected to the neighborhood. Yeah. They they wanna stay there. Yeah. They just don't know that they're not prepared to do what it takes to stay there. They just they're not there yet. They haven't come to that realization yet. Right. So I like it. I like I like entering their that conversation that they're having which is I wanna keep the house. How do I go about doing that? Right. I'm opposed to being about selling it. So we'll make our adjustments to our marketing. Excited to see how it all how it all turns out for us.   Dean Jackson Right. Awesome. Well, I would like to see I'm gonna be interested to see how it all plays out because you may have something that'll be a new approach for your industry there, you know?   Sean Caldwell I I I do. I believe that it would be because, as I mentioned, just the amount of money that is made in real estate investing. If there's something new, something different that's working better than what everybody else is doing. Yeah. It it it'll catch fire. But yeah. So I'm I'm excited to see how it all works out and we'll let you know, you know, how how how it goes.   Dean Jackson Awesome. Well, I've had fun. This has been a good conversation with your very thoughtful guy. I think this is I love that you're gonna played out. So we'll be connected in Go Go agent. We can, you know, connect in the forum and on our calls there. So I wanna see what's happening as you're doing it, and we'll be able to work it all out.   Sean Caldwell That sounds like planned. Thank you, Dean.    Dean Jackson Awesome. Thanks. I'll talk to you soon.   Sean Caldwell Alright. Bye. Bye.      

This week we tackle questions from our March Webinar titled The Secret To Getting Ahead in Hollywood. We host a webinar every month. Register for the next one using the link below.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsMichael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.Everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back for another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. We're doing a q and a, another q and a as if you're new here. So at once a month, Phil and I, we do a free webinar on screenwriting. And sometimes we talk about writing, sometimes we talk about breaking into the business. Sometimes we talk about at Get industry types to attend your event that's coming up. Each one, each month is a different topic and it's about an hour long and it's free. But we got a lot of questions at the end and it can only have time to answer so many of them. So here are the ones that I missed. So thank you all for coming, for listening. Here are the ones that I couldn't get to.Phil Hudson:Yeah. And this is for the March webinar. And we also have the April webinar questions to get through too, because oh, weMichael Jamin:Got some many questions. A lot,Phil Hudson:Lot of questions.Michael Jamin:The March webinar, what was on, I'm so sorry Phil, I'm putting you on the spot. What was that one for?Phil Hudson:Let's, let's see if I can pull it off. One second.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Phil Hudson:Pressures on. Ding to, I've got it up. The secret to getting ahead in Hollywood. Four things you must know.Michael Jamin:Yeah, the secret to getting ahead. Okay, so here are the questions. Yeah,Phil Hudson:So hit me, Phil. Now to be clear, there are several, there were a lot of questions here. I mean, there were like 70 questions we didn't get to. That webinar is an hour long and it's dedicated to 15 to 20 minutes of q and a. And you actually, you try to push through a lot of the stuff to get to the questions. And despite that, we still have so many. So I have removed duplicate questions. So in our last episode, doing the February q and a, you answered a bunch of these and there are other questions we've already talked about on the podcast or you have talked about on your social media. So if your question is not here and we don't answer it, apologize. But that's already been discussed pretty in depth. So lots of great content just go to at Michael Jamin writer to learn more or look at past podcast episodes related to your topic because we've covered a lot of this alreadyMichael Jamin:@MichaelJaminWriter on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook.Phil Hudson:So yeah, @MichaelJaminWriter, right?Michael Jamin:Just making sure. No, I'm sorry. I dunno,Phil Hudson:My own name. Mi... Michael Jamin, some other guy.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:So cool. Well, question number one, Robert Cowie asked, is there such a thing as a perfect script or is it in the eye of the beholder?Michael Jamin:No. Such a thing. As a matter. As a matter of fact. And it's a great question. I remember working on, just Shoot Me, this was my first staff writing job. And some of the older, more experienced writers, great writers in that show, people Hall I'll interview on the podcast. They turned a script. And I remember reading it thinking, oh my God, this is hilarious. This is gold. And then they would get notes from the Showrun. I'm like, w w what? Why are they getting, this is perfect. And you can always improve. You could always make it be better or slightly different. The Showrun runner was looking for something a little different, but there's no such thing, no writer ever turned a script. You could be Shakespeare, you would get notes. It's just how it works. So there's no such thing as a perfect script.Phil Hudson:Writing is rewriting, and eventually you reach to a point where you stop because you could just spend forever trying to make it better. And then five years from now, you're going to look back and think, that was horrible. I could have done better. Yeah, because you're progressing in the art, right? Yeah. You use Picasso as an example all the time about mastery. And in the course, I think he even show examples of his work as a teenager moving into his twenties. And then he becomes so good at the rules, he can bend the rules and become something truly unique. And that's the path of mastery in any craft.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And that's actually part of the fear as I was talking to my wife Cynthia this morning, cause I'm putting, getting ready to put my book out, a paper orchestra, and I'm like, once I put it out, I can't stop tinkering with it. I'm done. I no can no longer tinker with it. I'm done. And that's going to be a little difficult for me because I can't, there, there's always things that I wish I could do different when I look it over and it's like, no, you got to let it go. And now she's like, well, that's what your second book is for, is to do things differently in your second book, but you got to let it go at some point.Phil Hudson:Yeah, excellent point. Jenin, Macumba music. And I apologize if I mispronounce that I have a pitch meeting with a big league company. I am terrified. Any tips on how a pitch meeting should go?Michael Jamin:You should pitch them what you think it should be and then you should be open to hearing their ideas and incorporate their ideas and make them feel ownership in it. Because if you say, no, no, no, this is my way, the highway, well, they're not going to have any pride of ownership, but if they bounce an idea off you and they go, oh, and that excites you. Oh, that's interesting. Yes. Even if it is your idea, but they're just rephrasing it. I love that. Make them feel like it's their idea. Make 'em feel like you're being heard, that they're listening, that you're listening to them. That way they will fight more because it's their own, now it's theirs. So they'll fight for it. So 'em in them inPhil Hudson:It's a collaborative medium, despite the fact that you're the writer. It's many hands, lots of people, lots of iterations of it. What gets submitted and is not what you shoot. What you shoot is not necessarily what's going to air because there's editing, there's lots of iterations of this.Michael Jamin:And I tend to fall in love with whatever draft I'm working on, and then we'll get a note that's terrible and I'll do the note and I'm like, oh, this is pretty good because I fall in love with whatever. And then my partner will say, don't you remember how much you hated this note.Phil Hudson:That's so funny. One note, it's a bit of a tangent, but I think is an important note here. You've said in the past what you do when you're doing a new version is every day when you sit down, you save a new draft of your script so that you can always go back and you keep that. That's not directly related to pitching, but I think it does speak to keeping your versions so that you can see how it changes and grow and go back.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's a good point. I'm going to talk more about that. But the truth is, I save him to make myself feel better, but I almost never look at 'em. I almost never go back to them. ButPhil Hudson:Glad whenMichael Jamin:You have to allows me the, but it gives me the freedom to tear it apart. I go, I still have it, I have it. If I want it now, I can just tear it apart and feel good. But if I didn't save it, I probably wouldn't want to let go of it.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's playing. That's what your wife taught me in acting classes we're we're going to play. Yeah, right. Cool. Bobby Kin, excuse me, Bobby Kenon, any thoughts for making the transition from playwriting to screenwriting or television writing?Michael Jamin:Well, it's good for you that you're doing that story. Story. What difference does it make whether you put it on a stage or a screen, a large screen or a small screen, who cares? It's funny, when I'm writing for television, do you think I care if someone watches it on 40 inch television or on their six inch iPhone? Do I care? It doesn't change the way I'm writing it? Maybe they'll be able to see less, but I don't really, that's not my business. That's their problem. So it doesn't really change anything. It tips from becoming a playwright. Well, obviously now you have more sets to play with because on in a play, you literally can't have too many sets because where are you going to put 'em all? How are you going to get stage them? And so plays tend to be a little more talky, whereas a TV show or a movie tends to be like, well, let's wa what are we watching now? Oh, the characters on a rollercoaster. Okay, you can't do that in a play. But is story structure a story structure? And if that's something you want to learn, for sure, we got a course, you've go to michaeljamin.com/course, and we teach story and story structure. SoPhil Hudson:Yeah, there's another question in here and it's kind of buried, so I apologize. I'm not going to find the person who said it, but they asked the question. Oh, here it is. Mark Mohawk. And I think that's a fake name. It's not really. Yeah, mark Mahaw. I was going to say, yeah, I, I'm worried I'm saying something.Michael Jamin:I was going to make a joke about his name.Phil Hudson:Can you talk aboutMichael Jamin:Mark, what is itPhil Hudson:In? I think this relates to that, talking about different sets and things. When you talk more about shooting things on your own, when shooting diy, would you prioritize dialogue for budget purposes?Michael Jamin:Well, I prioritize story. The priority is you could shoot everything on your phone. The only thing you have to have is good sound. And I would, that's critical. If the sounds bad, I don't care. You don't want to, if I'm hearing wind noises more than the dialogue, if I'm hearing the background actor of more than the foreground actor, that's a problem. So sound is really important. More so than camera, work lens with camera, you're going to shoot it on, but prioritize dialogue. You should prioritize tell telling a good story. So if you could tell a story with no dialogue, that's fine too.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Aaron Sorkin, lots and lots of dialogue. Yeah. Lots of other writers. No dialogue. I think the movie Drive, have you seen Drive?Michael Jamin:Loved it. Very fluff. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Blew my, blew my mind. Dude. Barely talks. Barely talks. Yeah. But it's so emotive and so expressive and it's just so masterfully shot. Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying if it calls for it or if that's your style, and maybe that will develop your style. I think in film school, it was an indie film school that I went to, and they focused a lot on that. It's like what assets and resources do you have? And utilize the tools that you have to make what you can. Yeah. That might be a park bench. And you've talked about that as an example in the webinar you did.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Park bench. Two people talking could be boring. Put it in the living room. It's one of the greatest shows ever made.Michael Jamin:Yeah. All in the family, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yep.Phil Hudson:Cool. All right. This is another one of those dub boy, d a u boy. B o y I. Sorry, I slotted that. All right. Your recommendation for new writers to be good or contribute in a writer's room?Michael Jamin:What's my recommendation? Yeah,Well just know that you're not getting paid what the more senior writers are getting paid. And so, God, I was just listening to, who was I listening to? Saying the same exact thing, which is relax. I mean, you're a new writer. Just relax, soak up, learn, be a sponge. Don't feel like you have to argue, don't feel like you have to contribute too much. Y you're Jo, you're going to be white knuckling it the first several months, if not seasoned, because you're going to be in way over your head. So just absorb, don't feel compelled that you have to contribute as much as everybody else. My feeling, because just talking to hear yourself talk is not helpful to the rest of us.Phil Hudson:I was talking to a friend who is a staff writer on his first season, and he said, I asked him how it went and asked him if he was nervous to talk. And he's like, what I found interesting is I knew better than to talk very much only when I had a good idea, but I didn't feel that the people just above him, the story editor and senior story editor were talking enough, they were not contributing enough. Oh,Michael Jamin:They were not.Phil Hudson:And feedback from the showrunner, he said, was that the showrunner agreed that those people were not carrying their weight. So at what point, what's the transition point? At what point do you feel like you should be contributing more?Michael Jamin:And it's really hard to know. I mean, that's why it's so important. AndPhil Hudson:Maybe we should clarify for people too. What are those levels, right? Because it's story, it's staff writer, story editor, senior story editor,Michael Jamin:No, executive storyPhil Hudson:Editor. Executive story editor. And then it's was itMichael Jamin:ScriptPhil Hudson:Co-producer,Michael Jamin:Producer,Phil Hudson:Producer. Go ahead.Michael Jamin:Super. Then supervising producer, then co-executive producer, then executive producer. And so the higher up you go, the more you're expected to contribute. And that's why in the beginning, I didn't even know what a good pitch was. I didn't know what a good pitch was versus a bad pitch. The more you learn, the more, yeah. I mean, that's one, when we talk about it in the course, I think one of the valuable parts of the course is hopefully when you go through it, is you get a sense of what a good idea is and what's what story structure is. So you should know you damn well should be known at the end of the course. What constitutes a good pitch? What does this be? What should that beat be? What is a story? How does a story unfold? How does the scene unfold? This is all important stuff that, so you're not just throwing out ideas. I think a lot of problems, Hey, what if, well, we're not pitching, we're not playing. What if right now we're actually trying to break the story. And we're not free reigning right now. Now we're further down the road.Phil Hudson:Just a note, note on the value of that segment about knowing what a good idea is this season in the Tacoma FD writer's room, when I was sitting there, I'm trying not to talk other than I'm answering a question or providing research, because that's kind of my role. And I remember you were all trying to figure out what are we going to do for the cold open of this episode? And you were thinking of an interesting reason to get our firefighters there. And for whatever reason, this story popped in with my friend had a roommate who jabbed an EpiPen into his leg backwards, and it hooked into his thumb, but he was super drunk, and so firefighters had to come. And I just pitched that and I just remember everyone be like, that'll work. And they wrote it up and that was the working cold open. And it changed and it didn't work because they did something very similar later. But I was like, oh, perfect. That was a good idea. Proper time to bring it up. And it worked like that, right? Then that came from your course.Michael Jamin:Oh good. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Cause I wouldn't have pitched anything. First of all, you say don't talk if you're an assistant, but secondly, I did. I knew it was a good pitch because of your course, and that's why I opened my mouth and it was on the board for a week. So yeah. Yeah. Made me feel warm and fuzzy.Michael Jamin:Absolutely.Phil Hudson:Awesome. Lorenzo, can you name a couple of screenwriters you respect and you think could be a good source of technical mastery?Michael Jamin:Well, John Hughes, I, I don't know him personally or, I dunno if this person talking about people I know personally. I mean, I love John Hughes. The Breakfast Club is a play, is a stage play, but it was a movie, but it feels like a stage play. So it very talky and wonderful and so authentic. And it really felt, he remembered what it was like to be a teenager.Phil Hudson:All of his movies capture that time. I mean, it's a John Hughes movie. You know what it is when it's coming up becauseMichael Jamin:Yeah. So is there anybody better than him? That's my opinion. No, but that's the style of writing that I like. So Sure.Phil Hudson:Michael Scott, and I think, I don't know if you want to bring this up, but occasionally when you do the webinar, you will give away a free access, a free seat in your course. Lifetime access.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's a good reason to show up.Phil Hudson:Michael Scott won. Michael Scott was our winner. Oh,Michael Jamin:That's right. He won. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Yeah. So Michael Scott said, do you recommend attending PGA West Producers Guild of America events and networking with showrunners? I think he might mean wga a West.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I've never been to a PGA Producer's Guild event. I don't even know what kind of events they have. And show runner goPhil Hudson:The West, I think means he, he's means wga a, but Michael, I'm sorry. I've forgot that wrong.Michael Jamin:Well, I would, I'd go, but I wouldn't go for a net. I wouldn't go to network. Net networking is gross. People smell it a mile away. I say network with people at your own level, which might be which, whatever level you're at, that's who you network with. Don't network. You don't have to kiss the ass of the show of some showrunner. He or she will smell it a mile away network with people at your own because they rise up. They'll rise up as assistants become whatever, agents, managers, writers, that's your friend group. That's your circle.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I've talked in the past about the Writer's Guild of America Foundation who puts on these events. They have this thing called the Golden Ticket. And when I first moved here, that was what I did. I paid the money for that, and it got me a front row seat at all of these events. And what that allowed me to do was just have a better learning experience and the opportunity to have conversations with these people if I wanted to. And I remember I went to the WGA in Hollywood, and I was riding the elevator up, and I wrote up with John August, and I had met him at Sundance where I was doing translation work. So I was like, oh, hey John. And he was like, oh, hey. And I was like, yeah, I was the Sundance translator. He was like, oh yeah, that's right.And he was like, you enjoying la? And I was like, yeah. And that's all I said to him. And it's cause it just wasn't the right time to attack the guy who's had to go talk on stage and read the room. I understood dynamics, just acknowledge I knew who he was and we'd met before. That was it. That was the most networking I did at any of those events outside of the other people who had paid for the golden ticket and because we were talking to each other every week and sitting there and going to the festival that they put on, I met a lot more people through doing those things.Michael Jamin:That's your net. That's networking. It's not gross. It's not, Hey, what can you do for me? Hey, let's just chat. Yeah. We have something in common.Phil Hudson:Cool. Danny Casone, I'm probably messing that up. How do you develop better writing skills and how do you find someone to bounce your ideas off of?Michael Jamin:Well, the one thing we have in our course is a private Facebook group, and those people trade scripts, and they've all been through my course, so they have some degree of knowledge. So that's a great way to do it. But what was the first part? How do youPhil Hudson:Develop better writing skills?Michael Jamin:Oh yeah. You take classes. That's how you do it. You learn. I How are you expected to do it? How are you expected to do it on your own when you don't know? Yeah. Read. That's why you take a course.Phil Hudson:Read, read and apply. That's the other thing is you can get too caught up in learning how to do something. And that is a form of procrastination because you're not sitting down to execute. You're going to learn a lot more by executing and reading it and realizing how bad it is than you would learning and learning and learning and not sitting down and just doing the work. So yeah, don't procrastinate, just do the work and you'll learn a ton. But as far as ideas, like you said, it's the private Facebook group or the people you're around, all those things. Someone else asked in here, although I'm not a member of the course, can I sign up for the private Facebook group as long as I'm carrying my weight and contributing,Michael Jamin:No, sorry. Sorry.Phil Hudson:You got a lot of those requests.Michael Jamin:Sorry. Because that's just the role to get in. It's like the people who put skin in the game, they've been to the lessons, they're contributing with their knowledge with what they've learned. It's not social hour. It's like it's class. So it's like saying, Hey, can I just go to med school and contribute? Well, no, you're either in or you're out. Yeah.Phil Hudson:The And the quality of every interaction in that group is better because everyone is coming at it from the same foundation.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. I do think they're very serious. I do think the quality of the conversations in that private Facebook group, cause I see it, the comments and I believe comments, it's very high. It's much higher than, say, way higher than Reddit, way higher than some public Facebook group. It's way, hi. It's just higher.Phil Hudson:One example I'll give on that, A friend of mine was like, you got to join this Facebook group. It's awesome. And I joined and I was just trying to introduce myself. I was like, Hey, I'm Phil. I'm new the group. I just wanted to share this thing that I heard about Steve Spielberg said that the opening shot of every film is a metaphor for the whole thing. And I got berated by 50 people saying, I thought everybody knew that this is, what do you mean you're just learning? And I was like, you guys are dicks. I'm out. And I just left the group because I was like, you are not my people and I do not want to be in here with you.Michael Jamin:Yeah, there's a people, yeah, exactly. People on social media could be dicks and I don't see any of that going on. Maybe because I think they know. I'll kick 'em out if I see thatPhil Hudson:You will. Another on that note. So one thing you and I have to do for the course is there's this whole thing that you did with me, which is coming up with an idea, breaking an idea, writing the idea, and getting a pilot. And it was a pilot episode of Tacoma fd, and we still have to go over that final script because someone was like, Uhland. And the group was like, Hey, Phil, did you guys ever, did you finish it? I was like, I did. I need a, it's printed. I just need to send it to Michael so he can give me notes.Michael Jamin:Yeah, we'll do that'll talk.Phil Hudson:And he was like, well, I was just revisiting and I always thought this be this moment at the end of your act too. And I was like, dang, that's better than what I wrote. And then he was like, then maybe this is how the Eddie comes back. I was like, dang it, that's better than what I wrote. Right? This is just, they're thinking about story at the same way. And I was like, I learned some valuable things off of those two comments, and he hasn't even read the script.Michael Jamin:So yeah, it's a good group.Phil Hudson:Yeah. All right. Manola films, can you please talk about the show Bible? What is a show bible and do we need 'em, I think is the ultimate question.Michael Jamin:No, I don't think you need, no. The show Bible, when we work on a show is the writer assistant or the S script supervisor will assemble the episodes that we've shot and put it together and for whatever reason, whoever needs to look at it. I'm like, who wants to look at this? When you're pitching, you think you need a show, Bob, because you want to sell a show, but you're not going to sell a show. So what are you worried about? Your writing sample? Your script is a writing sample. It's a calling card. It's for you to get more work. Why put the, you're not going to, what are you going to do with the Bible not pitching anybody? And if you do pitch someone and they want a Bible, fine, they'll put together a Bible. But that's not what the point of your main goal right now is to have a killer script as a writing sample. That's hard enough. Forget about a Bible.Phil Hudson:There's another writer who's pretty active on TikTok and social media, and he was talking about a Bible, and I asked him, I was like, what do you think the value of the show Bible is? Because I've heard I shouldn't need one. He's like, well, you got to know where your story's going. So when you pitch, you can answer the question, what's where are we going? What's going on? So understand that much about it if you're in the opportunity to sell it. But he wasn't advocating for what I think the pros and the experts are referring to as a bi bible, which is this character and his backstory and his arc through seasons one through 10. And this is the, it's not the detailed, it's just know where you're going with your story. There are also some really interesting Bibles story, Bibles that are available online that I won't link to because they're not our ip. They're not something that you want to link out to, but you can search for 'em and find them. That again, is literally what you said. It's something that an assistant does for the show.Michael Jamin:SoPhil Hudson:Monica, and by the way, it's to help the writers, the new staff writers. We had new writers on Tacoma FD this season, and they were asking me for that, and we didn't have a Bible, and so I had to send 'em all the scripts and they had to read through all the scripts instead of just reading a bible to understand what stories have been told, who the charactersMichael Jamin:Are. They should be reading the scripts anyway. They should. That's the thing. There youPhil Hudson:Go. Yeah. Okay. I'm putting that on you guys. If you're listening. Sorry, you didn't complain when I sent you the script. Yeah. Monica B, what about if you work in a different area of Hollywood, for example, does that experience help when you are ready to pitch a script?Michael Jamin:No. No, it doesn't. I mean, it's great that you're working in Hollywood. Maybe you can make some connections, but if you are working in post and you don't want to, if you want to be a screenwriter, just know not where we, that's not the bullpen. That's not where we're pulling talent from. You're close, the closer you can get physically to the job you want, the better. So you're getting close, but eventually you want to get in on the production side, you want to get closer to the writers. It's good that you have that job, but it's not a transferrable skill.Phil Hudson:I've turned down those jobs because it's not the direction I want to go. Okay.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:So Flyboy 2 43 is starting out writing as a hobby part of the way to become a professional in your spare time if you're at the bottom.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you should be writing. Yeah. If you enjoy writing, you for sure if you like writing, but if you don't like writing, if you're not writing as a hobby, then what makes you think you're going to like it as a profession?Phil Hudson:Philip Mullings Jr. Can you use scripts that you've written on a show as a staff writer in your portfolio?Michael Jamin:Well, I don't have a portfolio. None of us have a portfolio. We just have writing. We have scripts that we've written. So if you were creditPhil Hudson:Staff, right, you have a credit that your agent's putting out there.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But if you were, say you were on a let's staff writer on floppy in the Boys on the Disney Channel, and you wrote a script, fantastic. But if you're trying to get work on some other show, a sophisticated adult show you're floppy in the boys script that was produced is not going to be of any service. So you know, have to have a writing sample that will match the tone of the show you want to work on.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Got it. Alex Zen Draw comics. What do screenwriters do when they're having health problems that may hinder their writing pursuits?Michael Jamin:Well, what are you going to do? I mean, if your health comes first, what are you going to do? You have to be healthy enough to write and healthy enough to work. So that's a problem. What do you do? You know, focus on getting healthy.Phil Hudson:I wanted to include this one because it's an area we haven't talked much about, which may be like the W G A health benefits and some of those benefits that you get from being in the guild. I can tell you, as someone who previously held an insurance license, disability insurance is probably a good idea for most people, which is if you are unable to perform your work for which you get paid, you can get a percentage of that pay. Now, that is not an endorsement for anybody or anything, but it is something to consider for every adult. If I get a hand, if I get handicapped or something, how am I going to pay my bills?Michael Jamin:Yeah. It's just very hard to prove disability if you're a writer, because as long as you have a functioning brain, you can still write. So disability's easier if you're working on a construction because you can't, how are you going to climb a ladder? But if you're hard to prove if you're a writer,Phil Hudson:Interesting. As far as the WGA benefits go for the health plan, I mean, what does that look like? And I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but you have to earn a certain number of points or pay a certain amount into the Guild Fund every year to maintain your benefits.Michael Jamin:The health benefits being in the Writer's Guild gets you health insurance as well as pension, but you have to earn a certain number of points every year to continue qualifying for them.Phil Hudson:And if you don't qualify, is that like a Cobra situation where you're paying out of pocket for those benefits or you get youMichael Jamin:Accrue points so you have a certain, the more you work, the more points, and then if you're unemployed for a year, usually you just draw this point bank that you have and that'll deplete itself after pretty quickly depending on how long you've, your history is. And then after that, you can have a COBRA situation where you get to pay out of pocket,Phil Hudson:Which is expensive. Yeah, but prioritize your health. That's something I'm learning the older I get, especially having children now and people who rely on me is your health is the number one thing, because without it, you cannot provide for your family. You cannot do anything. So Right. Make time for that. All right, Peter Cat, this feels very Russian. Peter, p i e t e r k e t e l a a R. I apologize to everybody for my poor phonetics. What kind of stock do you put in a blacklist score of eight for a pilot in hand already?Michael Jamin:I have no idea what an eight means or what, I barely know what the blacklist is, so I'm going to say, what kind of stock do I put in that zero considering I don't even know the question.Phil Hudson:I knew that was going to be the answer to the question, which is why I included it. Because for those of us who are what we call pre WGA people trying to break into the industry, we put a lot of stock in the blacklist and what that means. But I had a volunteer at Sundance that I met years ago. She had a script that one was on the blacklist, and she had meetings about it, and then she rewrote the whole thing and changed it all up and spent two years focusing on that script instead of walking away from it and working on another good piece of material. And a lot of my conversations were pitching things to her because of your course that ultimately she was like, well, that was in my first draft. That was in my first draft. And she's just getting lots of bad feedback. So the points don't matter. The listing can get you meetings with people, but ultimately you still got to be able to put in the work, and you have to have multiple samplesMichael Jamin:Because multiple samplesPhil Hudson:That might get you into a room, but what else do you got?Michael Jamin:You tell me you got an eight or whatever, or 108 on blacklist. I don't really care. Let me just read the script. I'll decide whether I think the script is good or not. I get to decide that and whoever, whoever's reading it gets to decide. So yeah, it's not like, oh, this person's got an eight right this way. No, I don't care whether you got a zero. If it's I read it, I decide.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Another question from Peter, this was from the webinar where you talked about networking should be at your level or beneath you, right? Because yeah, and we talkedMichael Jamin:About this. That's why I feel this episode. It's my opinion.Phil Hudson:What should my beneath me look like?Michael Jamin:Oh, well, I mean, it's anyone, it's, I mean, I don't know. ThisPhil Hudson:Might be two, taking two as too. So lemme just throw the other one out. What is something that is beneath me? What is something I shouldn't spend my time doing?Michael Jamin:Well, right. Nothing's beneath you. So if your neighbor is saying, Hey, I want to shoot a movie in my backyard, sure, I'll do it. I'll help if I'm just above that level. Yeah, not, it's like, because anybody who's showing any kind of ambition, who's just trying a student at a film school, whatever, get involved in them. If they're going to get out of film school, if they want to stay in the industry, they'll stay in the industry and then they'll work their way up and then you'll be right there with them because you're helping them under their projects. And maybe they'll help you on theirs. That's your class, that's your graduating class. So is anything beneath you? No. As long as you have the time to do it, get involved these, because no one, it's so interesting when I talk about stories from my past, I think it's easy to, and I talk about, oh, this person I know this famous person, this or this successful person, that successful person at the time, they weren't successful. They were just people, and most of them didn't mount to anything in the industry, but some of them did. And that's, some of them did. That's it. So you know, get involved in everybody.Phil Hudson:But it goes back to the thing that's a common theme on our podcast, which is serve everybody. Give as much as you can without any expectation of receiving. Because if you're doing it because you, you're betting all your cards on that horse, everything you got on that horse to win the race, and then they fall out. Well, yeah, there's some manipulation and some self-serving that goes there, and intention has a smell, so we, you're going to stink. It's not good.Michael Jamin:I worked in a show called, I was a PA on a show called Hearts of Fire, which was Marky Post in John John Ritter, and also Billy Bob Thornton was on it actually. And it was a Linda Bloodworth Thomason show. And so there was two young staff writers in that show, which I kind of hung out with them a bit because they were closer to my age and they were, because they were staff writers. Maybe they're a story editor, I don't remember, but they're low. They were low and very low in the totem pole. And I hung out with them because they were closer to my level and they were nice to me. Those guys turned out to be David Cohan and Max Muk, who created Will and Grace years later. I didn't know that at the time. They were just a couple guys my age, a couple years older, and that who I didn't have to kiss anybody's butt, they, I was at pa, so they were definitely above my level, but still they weren't setting in the world on fire at thePhil Hudson:Time. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You could unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Phil Hudson:All right. Taylor Cole, I have had a consistent career as a film producer. How can I best transition into television? I'm assuming television writing.Michael Jamin:Oh, yeah. With TV writing, how can you be? Basically, you're where everyone else is. My answer to you is the same as everyone else. Write scripts, show them. If you have a movie that did really well, give a hit movie that you should have no trouble. You should, people fi, if you made a movie that no one saw, you're going to have a problem. If you made a hit movie where there a breakout at Sundance, people are going to find you. People are going to find you. And that's how I've been doing the whole webinar. I don't want to say too much because I, I've, I've coming up, I want to talk about examples of this, about people who breakout people and how they broke out. And I'm going to talk more about it. And so sign up for one of my webinars that michaeljamin.com/webinar. But, cause I'm going to talk about this for about an hour, but how can you, my advice to you is the same as everyone else. I hope you're, you're following me everywhere and just soaking it up because it's no different for you.Phil Hudson:Yeah, there you go. Shane Gamble. I live in New York City. Do you think it is better to move to LA or should I focus on the network I've currently built here?Michael Jamin:Where's Hollywood? And Hollywood is in la? There is some, obviously there's theater, there's probably more theater in New York than it is in LA that interests you. In the end, you're probably going to have to come out to Hollywood. There's not much of a network out there. This is where it is. I'm from New York. I moved out here because this is where Hollywood is, so yeah.Phil Hudson:Yep. Now there's writing there too, but if you don't have the network there in the writing space,Michael Jamin:Some shows are shot there. But the writing, most of the time the writing's done here. 30 Rock was shot and written in New York, but that's only because Tina Fay didn't want to leave New York. Everybody else does it here.Phil Hudson:Yeah.Michael Jamin:So you might get a job. Let's say you've got a job in New York writing on 30 Rock. Great. How are you going to make a career? Because that show is done. It's not on the air anymore.Phil Hudson:Good point, right? Ariba, how do I work through the problem of getting stuck between my script? Any exercises that I could help work through that I'm currently writing a short film and I find myself stuck midway.Michael Jamin:You don't understand story structure. You didn't break your story cro correctly, which is why you're stuck, which is why you don't know what your characters are going to do. You don't know what to do it. So I don't have any quick fixes for you. I could teach you story structure. I could teach you, which is what the course is. No, I don't have a tip. I teach, I teach you how to become a writer. There's no tips. It's not a tip situation.Phil Hudson:And the course is currently closed. Maybe it's not. When this comes up, probably will be. But the course is currently closed and we open it up once a month at this point for people who want to join. So yeah, best way to know about when is to sign up for the webinars because there's some specials in the webinar and you have a chance to win the course. But also, typically I can not going to promise that every time. I don't want to speak for you, Michael, but yeah, that is typically the best way to find out when the course is going to reopen.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. But yes, unfortunately I don't have any tips. I don't have any exercises. I, I'm going to teach you how to become a writer. I, I'm going to teach you how to write basically if you want, want to take the course.Phil Hudson:One of our really early episodes of the podcast talked about writer's block and about how, sorry, you're a professional and you talked about that recently on another webinar as well. So that's some place to look for some advice on this as well, is work through it, make it happen. But you got to learn the story structure.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Cool. K M C, if I'm writing an entire series, are the accumulation of episodes enough or should I spread out to other writings too?Michael Jamin:Why we write an entire series? That's first question.Phil Hudson:That is advice.Michael Jamin:You got to write one scriptPhil Hudson:That is advice people get, Michael, is you should write an entire series.Michael Jamin:No, write one script. Write one episode that just killer. Write one. Just one. A lot of times, and we were talking, we talked about this privately where someone wrote an entire series and you read it and you're go, no, you just basically took the contents of your pilot and script and spaced it off on 10 episodes. So you have structure 10 episodes of they No Structures. They have 10 episodes of garbage, of they have 10 episodes of Boring when they should have just made one episode. That was great.Phil Hudson:Their intuition for what an entire series is was literally a pilot and everything else was just pipe and unnecessary, confusing, meandering and a lot of, I think one of the early critiques I got in writing, and I've heard many times and felt many times for other people, is a lot of things happening, but no one's doing anything.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. You know, don't want your writing to be that. Learn. There's studies, study your screenwriting. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. So study what a story is. Oh,Phil Hudson:So write a good poem becauseMichael Jamin:If you had known what a story is, if that person had known what a story is, they wouldn't have done that. They wouldn't have wasted all that time.Phil Hudson:Well, I gave him the notes and at the end he's like, you, because I'd only read the pilot and I was like, well, this might be this and this is kind of how structure, what your pilot would be. He's like, you just described my full season. I was like, yeah, man. Yeah. SorryMichael Jamin:Dude. Yeah. Sorry. You screwed up. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Aaron Brown. What are your favorite examples of screenplays We should read?Michael Jamin:Anything you should read. Good. You should read bad. You should read if it's good. You got a stack on screen, please?Phil Hudson:Yeah. I've got Ladybird ready, player one, aliens, which is one of the most popular scripts I think people are recommended to read. James Cameron Unforgiven, which is the script that famously sat inside of blanking on his name.Michael Jamin:Was it Clint Eastwood?Phil Hudson:Clint Eastwood, yeah. Sat, he bought it, put it in his desk, and then waited, I think like 20 years till he was old enough to play the part. And one in Oscar one multiple Oscars. I got Drive, which we talked about recently. This is one of my favorite scripts, Armageddon, which was a big block buster, but just a bunch of scripts that I think were stood out. But I think when Oscar season comes out, the studios release their nominated scripts and you can find 'em publicly. So that's a great place to go to find really good stuff. These are what the industry says are the best scripts right now.Michael Jamin:And you can also go to the Writer's Guild in West Hollywood, or actually it's HollywoodPhil Hudson:Fairfax. Yeah, li It's in Hollywood. Fairfax. Yeah.Michael Jamin:They have a public library. You don't have to be a member, you have to make an an appointment. That's it. And you can read for free a bunch of scripts. Read good ones, read bad ones. If you read a bad one, why don't I like this? And don't say it because it's boring. No. What exactly do you not like about this? If you see a good one, why do you want, what do you like about this script? Why do you want to turn the page? What makes you want to and be specific, not because it's compelling, say it. No, because what about it? It makes you want to turn the page and so you can learn from good or bad.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Awesome. We got a few more questions here and then we'll wrap it up. Michael. Yeah. Kaya, Kaya link, again, probably ruining your name. I apologize. How long should these sample scripts be? Wait, how long should a sample sample be?Michael Jamin:If you're writing a half hour or an hour long, it should be match, whatever. If you're a drama writer, it's going to be an hourPhil Hudson:There. There's a note at the back end of this. It says, feature, should I be writing fe? I'm putting this together fe Should I be writing features every time or should I try TV scripts and all those different things.Michael Jamin:I think you should write whatever you want to write, whatever kind of writer you want to be. Personally, I think you'll learn more from being a television writer than you'll. You'll learn more in a year than you would learn in 10 years. Writing features just because of you're learning. You're working alongside other writers who are experienced. It's like, I don't even know why you wouldn't want to be a TV writer first and then move into feature writing if that interests you. But you'll learn so much from working aside alongside professional writers. There's so much to be gained from that. Whereas if you're working in features home alone, good luck. Good luck.Phil Hudson:On that note too, the industry is focused on TV right now, not features, and they're really a handful of people writing features. Yeah. It's not to say you can't be that, and there's always the indie feature side of things that you can do to write, but I mean, effectively, this is the same advice you gave on TikTok recently on that clip you did, right? Starting television and then move, expandMichael Jamin:Out. I think so, yeah.Phil Hudson:And Michael's got a lot of great stuff. We talked about it before, but go check about @MichaelJaminWriter on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook and Twitter and everywhere. Yeah. All right. Gianna Armin trout. How should you study other TV shows to learn story structure, breaking a story, et cetera? What should I be looking for when I'm watching other shows?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I, and that's exactly what the course goes into. I mean, the problem is if you want to just watch, go ahead. Watch as much as you can, but what you're not going to know what to look for, you're not going to know. That's the problem. And the same thing with reading. I think it's, you're just probably not going to know. And so I explained in the course, this is what you need to be looking for. These are the moments, these are the act breaks. These are the middle of two, this is the top of three. This is what you need to be looking for. These are the patterns you're going to see in smartly written indie movies, smartly written blockbusters and smartly written foreign films. And they all have a lot in common. And just because you and television as well, and just because you think, well, I don't want to learn story structure because that's formulaic and it's not formulaic. These are just things that a good story has. These are just things they have in common. SoPhil Hudson:When I was in film school, we were given the task of picking whatever show we were going to write a spec episode of, and then getting a stopwatch out and then timing the scenes. That seems logical, but ultimately what you don't realize is that's what the editing is. That's not necessarily what the script was and what it was written as. Yeah. And yeah, it's not hitting the important points, which is what beat should I be hitting here? How soon do they introduce this information?Michael Jamin:And I don't even get that. What are you going to do? You're going to write with your stopwatch next to you, or you're going to write and you go, oh, this is page three. This better happen. What do you mean? How are you supposed to make that work?Phil Hudson:That's a lot of screenwriting advice. Michael, this page on pageMichael Jamin:Three, this happened, I don'tPhil Hudson:Understand it. By page 10, this needs to happen at the end of a page 25, this moment should happen. And page 45, this should have page 60. This should happen, right? That's traditional, open, most screenwriting books. And IMichael Jamin:Don't get that. If you were to write a story, whether it's for television or just a story, and like I say, this is what happens. You need to have at the bottom of act one, if now, if you're bottom act one is on page 15 or 17, does it really matter? Does it really matter? What difference does it make it? You're off by page and a half. What the, who cares? And you could always cut it a little bit. If I don't, I don't know. I just don't approach writing that way. It's like it's a story. Whether you want to put the story on a television or on a stage or write it in a book is, and you get to decide whether you want it to happen on 19 or 17, what difference does it make? Really? What difference does it make?Phil Hudson:There you go. Hi, waha Henry are pitch decks, the new calling card. I've been asked to submit pitch decks instead of a script.Michael Jamin:Who asking? Who's asking you these? I want to know. I want names. Who's asking?Phil Hudson:My experience in Hollywood is that they are the people who are not actually producers.Michael Jamin:There is the problem. I want to know if you're a good writer first, if I'm going to get into business with you for anything, whether I'm going to finance your movie, and I don't finance movies, but that or staff you on a show, I want to know, can you write, can you tell a good story? That's the first thing. And if you can't, I don't really care what your pitch deck looks like.Phil Hudson:I had done some work for a production company out here, and the producers were like, well, we'd love to read what you have. And I was going to send my script. And they're like, do you have a story bible? This goes back to the earlier question. I said, I don't, do you have an example of what story Bible you want to say? This was years ago before I realized kind of your advice on this. And they sent me, this is one we think is really good, and it was a pitch deck. That was what piqued their interest. And then they read the script and it's like, these people are just trying to make a dime. They're not necessarily trying to put out the best content that they can, and they're intermediaries and they're not the guy with the overall deal at a studio that can just walk in and present what they want to make.Michael Jamin:Yeah, justPhil Hudson:It's aMichael Jamin:Different level. I don't understand. It's all smoke and mirrors, I think, whoa, the picture that looks great. Really. Are you trying to get hired as a writer or not? Yeah, I'm not a graphic artist.Phil Hudson:Generation X. How can you find someone to read your work who has experience and won't steal your idea?Michael Jamin:Well, where do I be doing this?Phil Hudson:Two notes on that one. I know, right? That's why I brought it. Yeah, that's why I put it in here.Michael Jamin:Where do you begin? Well, your agent will submit it and we'll only submit it to reputable places. Then the question is, well, how do you get an agent? And that'll be talking about that on all my webinars I got, I'll talk about it again at some point. How do you worried about They want to steal your idea? Well, who you're giving it to. Don't give it to some clown at Starbucks. What was the other question?Phil Hudson:How do you get someone with experience to read your work? Oh,Michael Jamin:How do you get someone to experience? Well, you have to bring more to the table. Why? Why would they, like I have experience, why would I want to read your work? If I'm staffing for a TV show, I will go out to agents and managers. Give me the, I'm not going to, I don't go to people off the street. Yeah. I don't hire people off the street, so don't give me your work. Cause I'm not going to hire you. I'll get it from an agent. Well, how do you get an agent? That's a different question. Yeah, but it's not, you don't get people like me to read your work. You. No, you don't. I mean,Phil Hudson:I think this fall, I will have known Michael for 10 years. I've asked him to read maybe three things.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's a big deal. It's a big deal to get somebody to read again. You're telling him to sit down. Somebody said that to me on DM Me. It's like, Hey, would you mind reading my screenplay? Would I mind giving up my Saturday afternoon sitting down, reading your thing, coming up with notes, getting on the phone with you, deliver my notes? What if I said to my dentist, Hey, my two hurts. Would you mind taking a look at it? My dentist say, no, not a problem. Not at all. Go call my office. Make an appointment. Bring your insurance card and your credit card for the deductible. That's what he would say. Yeah, it's business. It's professional that. What do you expect? No.Phil Hudson:Michael kindly offered to read something and I sent him the first script I wrote, and he referred to it as a Frankenstein. And I was like, oh my gosh, I know nothing. And this was five years into studying on my own. And I didn't send you anything else to read until it was a spec I wrote in film school. So that was probably three years later. And then the last thing I sent you to read was just last year. And that was the first good thing. That was the first thing. And your note on the second thing is, I can tell you're a competent writer and you can capture the voice of the show, but all your other notes were about my structure. It still wasn't there.Michael Jamin:And then the third piece was you're like, okay, now you're finally getting it right. Yeah. Now you're finally getting it.Phil Hudson:Yeah. And I consider myself egotistically to be a smart guy, but it really took off when Michael put his course together for me. And I'm your biggest advocate for that thing. All right. Danny Casone again. Have you met Mike Judge and Mark Marinn? They're geniuses, by the way.Michael Jamin:I've worked side by side with both of them. Mark more so than Mike, because I was the showrunner of Mark's Maron show on i c. So we worked side by side for four years. Mike, a little bit less, but I wrote on King of the Hill and Beaver and Butthead and Beaver was in Butthead he would send us, well, we write the scripts, and then he would send us which videos he wanted to make fun of. And so we would watch those. Then we'd go to the booth with him, we'd watch it over his shoulder, we'd pitch jokes, and then he would run into the booth and do the voices and kind of change, do it the way he wanted to do it. But yeah, but they're both great guys. Both of them are great.Phil Hudson:There you go. All right. Final questions. There's two, but one of them is like eight questions because it's the same question we get every single time you do a q and a or anything else. Same question. So I'm going to read two. First one, amalgamation of things. Should I use a script consultant? What are your opinions about people who call themselves professional readers, who give notes? Can you recommend a good script reading service? And how much should I person pay for that service? Do you have any readers or reader services to recommend any or to avoid?Michael Jamin:Okay. Woo. I would avoid anything called a service. Anything. If you can find a retired screenwriter or a screenwriter who has time on their hands and go check out their imdp, pay I mdb paid, check out their credits, read their work. If you could find something like that, and there are people that exist, those are the ones you want to pay and pay them. Whatever they ask, the more experience they have, pay them more. I personally, I would rather find someone with more and more experience and pay them more. If they want double because they have, they've been doing for 20 years, I'll pay double because skimping just doesn't help you. I'd pay. Their expertise is worth every penny. That's what I would say with these services, you're finding people, many of them just hiring people, aspiring writers with no more credits or than you do, no more experience than you have. And they're giving you notes and you're paying for it, and they're completely unqualified to tell you anything. They read their training brochure and that's it. And that's not how it works. A man. Now, what a else do you have to say?Phil Hudson:No, I was just going to say, I think one of the things you can think about too, to get a little tell that I just discovered this week, so I mentioned that I was asked to sign on to help a screen, a Sundance project, because of my experience with Sundance. And I think that it helps them think they're going to get a little bit ahead with having a couple other alumni and fellows on that roster. And they were going to put me in as a script consultant. I went to go see what that would look like on imdb. And right there in that same thread, it's like script doctors and script consultants go under miscellaneous crew, not writers.Michael Jamin:And it isPhil Hudson:The bottom. That's the same place where I put my writer's assistant, my writer's PR credit down there, because it's just not a value. It doesn't do anything in those. People may get hired to do work at a studio level, but I wouldn't hire them to do that on my script. You need to doMichael Jamin:That job. I dunno if they get hired a studio level.Phil Hudson:I don't knowMichael Jamin:If that's a thing.Phil Hudson:So supposedly it's a thing, but you need to know how to write. And so find a writer to give you the feedback or find the writing and how to write to give you feedback. And that's again, what your private Facebook group does and what your course does for people.Michael Jamin:Find a screenwriter who has time on their hand. Maybe they're supplementing their income, but they have good credits and they know they've worked. Don't find someone who's a professional consultant reader or whatever. I would stay away from that.Phil Hudson:And last question, which is similar vein, but I think on a high note, BW asked, what does Michael think of submitting scripts to the Academy? Screenwriting contest, which is the fellows, the Nichols Fellowship.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. Is that, I didn't realize they were the one posted.Phil Hudson:The academy is the Nichols Fellowship.Michael Jamin:Okay. Do that one. That's a prestigious one. If you win, if you come in, if you place, eh, doesn't really help you.Phil Hudson:I've, I've heard of Quarterfinalists and semi-finalists getting some meetings off of that because it's so competitive. And the right, the that's read by actual professionals are donating their time to read and score those. Right. So it's It's definitely has more clout than anything else.Michael Jamin:But yeah, go for it. Also, go for, if you have any fellowships, do those. Sure. If they're industry things, yeah. Sometimes you can get involved in the studios offer various,Phil Hudson:But this goes back, but just this whole thing goes back to just be careful where you're spending your money as a writer. Because you can spend thousands of dollars submitting scripts to festivals thinking that award or that laurel on your website or on your script is going to help you get ahead and it will do nothing for you. And they're all, a lot of them, not all of them are money making machines to fund whatever they're doing at the festival. And I can tell you firsthand that that's the case. I'veMichael Jamin:Spoken about what I would do to break into the industry if I had to do it today. I'm going to do a few a webinar. I'm going to devote a webinar to that topic again probably in a few months. Cause I have other ones I've already planned out. We're going to do first. Get on them. It's free. It's free. That's all I got to say about that. MichaelJamin.com/webinar.Phil Hudson:Perfect. Alright, Michael, I think it's a good place to call it for the today. Anything else you want to add? Time of death,Michael Jamin:Phil.Phil Hudson:Time of death is.Michael Jamin:Time of deathPhil Hudson:Is 50 something minutes. It's a long one. Yeah. Great.Michael Jamin:All right, everyone.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Beyond that, some things you can do to support yourself in writing. So again, you don't have to sign up for Michael's course. Michael's giving a lot of stuff. If you don't have the money, you That's okay, Michael. I will. That's okay. Just make sure people are clear here because they may not know you are offering 0% financing effectively on all these things. If you want to sign up when registration's open, you can do a painful a three month or a six month plan because you said you want to make it as affordable to everyone as possible. There were some partners we had that were adding financing and we removed that option just to make sure. Yeah, it was fair to everybody who wanted to get in,Michael Jamin:And if you can't pay, that's fine. You can go, I got a free lesson. Go to michaeljamin.com/free. If you want to get on my free newsletter where I give out three free tips a week, MichaelJamin.com/watchlist. If you'd like to download some scripts that I've written and read them because they think it'll help you, and they probably will. You can also find those on my website. We got a ton of free stuff. We got this podcast. So yeah, just enjoy. Take it in, take it in. Did youPhil Hudson:Mention the watch list?Michael Jamin:I did. That's our new, yeah, Michael Gemma do com watchPhil Hudson:List. Oh, I was thinking about thinking about all this stuff was blanked for a second. All right. Well, everybody, thank you so much for your time and listening in. Hopefully this was helpful to you and make sure you sign up for the webinar where you do get an opportunity to ask Michael questions live and we dive into more detailed stuff, michael jamen.com/webinar Again for that.Michael Jamin:All right everyone, we'll see you on the next one. Thanks for listening. Bring your questions next time. Awesome.Phil Hudson:Thanks Phil.Michael Jamin:Then keep writing in. Thanks. Keep writing everyone. That's our motto. Phil came up with that. Keep writing. Yeah,Phil Hudson:One good thing. You're welcome guys.Michael Jamin:See ya.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review, and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagra

Megan and Wendy review Hallmark Channel's "Dream Moms" starring Tamera Mowry-Housley and Chelsea Hobbs as two moms who learn it is never too late to go for your dreams. This movie premiered on Saturday, May 13, 2023. What do you think of these Hallmark movies that aren't typical Hallmark? Email us at meganandwendy@gmail.com. Girls Gone Hallmark is a Hallmark movie review podcast. Hosted by Megan and Wendy, listen as they review "Dream Moms" starring Tamera Mowry Housely. Summer Fun on Girls Gone Hallmark! Megan and Wendy will review fan favorite Hallmark movies all summer long! About "Dream Moms" This movie was filmed in and around Vancouver in April 2023. "Dream Moms" was directed by Jessica Harmon. She has 14 directing credits including the Amanda Kloots' Christmas movie "Fit for Christmas" and Niall Mater's "Rip in Time." She also has 70 acting credits, including a starring role in "The 100" on the CW. Tamera Mowry Housley plays Danielle Smith. She has a total of 35 acting credits. This is her 6th Hallmark movie - other credits include "Inventing the Christmas Prince," "Girlfriendship," "The Santa Stakeout," "Christmas Comes Twice" and "Christmas Miracle." She was also recently on The Masked Singer and she does her own singing in this movie. Chelsea Hobbs plays Claire Ryan. She played the sister in "The Holiday Sitter," Laura Leighton's character in the "Unauthorized Melrose Place Story," was on 8 episodes of "UnREAL," plus a recurring role on "The L Word." Who Wrote Hallmark's Dream Moms Roxanne Messina Captor is given story credit for "Dream Moms" as well as an Executive Producer title. The script is by Jessiline Berry who also wrote "Girlfriendship" and "Christmas in Harmony" for Hallmark. She five total writing credits. Matty Finichio play's host Brian Brecrest. He has 108 acting credits and is a Girls Gone Hallmark longtime fave. He also recently played a quiz show host on "Riverdale." He ALSO had a role in "The Holiday Sitter" as well as "Just One Kiss" and "The Wedding Veil Legacy" recently for Hallmark. Mathew James Dowden plays neighbor Sam - his 29 acting credits include quite a bit of Hallmark including "The Holiday Sitter," "When Calls the Heart," "A Second Chance at Love," "North to Home," plus a recent role on "Grease: Rise of the Pink Ladies." Roger Cross plays Danielle's husband Mark. He has 160 acting credits. His very first credit is one episode of "21 Jump Street" in 1989, also 45 episodes of the series "24" from 2005 - 2007. Glen Gordon plays son Paul Ryan - 22 acting credits, most recently in Unexpected Grace, but also Open by Christmas and Sweet Carolina for Hallmark Songs in "Dream Moms"  The three original songs performed in this movie were written specifically for the film: "Dream That Dream," "Bring It Back" and "So Right." You Might Also Want to Like: Hallmark Channel's March 2023 Line Up of Original Movies April 2023 on Hallmark Channel What to expect from Hallmark Channel in May 2023 Look what's on Hallmark Channel in June 2023

If you've been listening to Focus Forward for a while, you know that many of our episodes so far have been focused on teens and adults - but what about the younger kiddos? While we tend to think about how Executive Function skills impact us later in life, these skills do start developing in infancy. I thought it would be helpful to explore what Executive Function skill development looks like in young children, how we can better support them and ourselves in this critical stage of development.In today's episode, we'll learn about this topic from three people who have a depth of insight and experience. First up, you'll hear from Maria Ares, who joined me to talk about supporting Executive Function skill development in the littlest ones in our lives. Maria is a speech language pathologist at a public preschool. And, guess what? She's also my sister! After my conversation with Maria, you'll hear from Stephanie Regan and Mariam Mahmoud who joined me to talk about elementary-aged kids. Both Stephanie and Mariam have worked in elementary education and have lots of experience supporting young children. Maria, Stephanie, and Mariam are all Executive Function coaches with Beyond BookSmart and bring their coaches' perspective to the conversation. I know you'll enjoy learning from their expertise as much as I have! Here are some resources related to our conversation:A Guide to Executive Function - Harvard University Center on the Developing ChildPeg Dawson's Smart but Scattered BooksChild Mind Institute Guide to Executive FunctioningExecutive Function Skills by AgeDownloadable Guides by Age from Harvard UniversityFocus Forward Ep 6: What Does Life Changing Executive Function Support (Really) Look Like? Perspective from a mom with kids who have executive function challengesContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18If you've listened to focus forward for a while, you'll know that many of our episodes so far have been focused on older kids, our teens and college age students. We've covered mental health, coping skills, social skills and college challenges. While we tend to think about how EF skills impact are older children, these skills do start developing in infancy. Babies' interactions with adults help them learn to focus their attention, build their working memory, and regulate their reactions to the things they experience. Everything is new, so they need to learn how to manage at all. As they grow, young children begin to learn planning, flexible thinking and attention. And as a parent or caregiver of young kiddos you might look at them and think "Do they have any executive function skills at all?" They're developing, and rather unreliable, EF skills require a lot of patience and understanding on our part. As I talked about before in my cognitive flexibility episode, it can help so much to learn about EF skill development. And in doing that, we can recognize that children's EF skill development is nowhere near where ours is. I thought it would be helpful to explore what EF skill development looks like in young children, how we can support them by providing tools that help and how we can support ourselves by understanding where they are in their EF skill development. In today's episode, we'll learn about this topic from three people who have a depth of insight and experience. First up, you'll hear from Maria Ares, who joined me to talk about supporting EF skill development in the littlest ones in our lives. Maria is a speech language pathologist at a public preschool. And guess what? She's also my sister! After my conversation with Maria, you'll hear from Stephanie Regan and Mariam Mahmoud, who joined me to talk about elementary-aged kids. Both Stephanie and Mariam have worked in elementary education, and have lots of experience supporting young children. Maria, Stephanie and Mariam are all EF coaches with Beyond BookSmart. And they bring their coach's perspective to the conversation as well. And bonus if you have watched our webinar, How to Reduce Conflict and Transform Your Parenting Through Executive Function, you'll recognize Mariam's voice and wisdom. And if you haven't watched it, you can find the link in the show notes. It's packed full of executive functioning skill approaches, and tips for reducing conflict with our kids. And hey, I'm the host of that, too. All right now on to the show. Hannah Choi 03:09Hi, Maria. Thanks for joining me today.Maria Ares 03:11Hi, Hannah. Thanks for having me.Hannah Choi 03:13Could you introduce yourself to our listeners?Maria Ares 03:16Sure. My name is Maria. And I'm a speech language pathologist and a public preschool where I work with kids who are aged three, four and five. And I also work for Beyond BookSmart wearing many hats, and quite a bit of coaching and coach development and different roles throughout my time with Beyond BookSmart. Hannah Choi 03:35Great. And you're my sister!Maria Ares 03:38I am. Yes, fun fact.Hannah Choi 03:42So you are quite well versed, I would say at working with kids under five or five and under. And I was just talking with someone the other day who was surprised to hear that executive function skills are like they start developing even at birth, and you know, start to show up at written really young eight, you know, at really young ages. So, what do executive What does executive function look like in a kid who's under the age of five? And what are some challenges that might come up?Maria Ares 04:18Yeah, so pretty much every developmental milestone has some sort of executive function skill behind it. But what executive function challenges look like at this age is pretty much everything. Basically, every executive function skill needs to be supported in preschoolers. I would say that almost every preschooler has difficulty with some if not all executive function skills, and that's developmentally appropriate and that's what we're here for, you know, to teach them and guide them and help them figure out you know, these these little skills that help them be people that can do things.Hannah Choi 04:58Yeah, and as caregivers of children, it can be really frustrating because we're coming from a place of having really well, maybe not really great executive function skills, but more fully developed executive function skills. And so it's can be really hard to understand like, why can't they just fill in the blank?Maria Ares 05:16Absolutely. And there's so many blanks you can fill in there.Hannah Choi 05:20All day, every day. And I love that you said that it's developmentally appropriate. Like, that's totally normal. I mean, our frontal cortex, that prefrontal cortex does not finish the finish developing. And we're seeing that you can still make improvements on your executive function skills after your mid 20s, which is about when the prefrontal cortex kind of is finished developing. So obviously, a kid who is little their prefrontal cortex is just getting going,Maria Ares 05:52Absolutely, yeah, they're in the earliest, earliest stages of being able to, you know, show and develop a lot of these skills. And that's really what a lot of early childhood curriculum is centered around is sort of building up the skills that you need, and also the social emotional piece that goes along with executive functioning, and sort of how you can use those skills to keep learning and growing.Hannah Choi 06:18Yeah, and so I imagine that when parents feel it, parents might feel like there's not enough academics going on, it's in a preschool setting. But really, at that point, there's, it is really important to focus on that social, emotional and executive function, skill development. Maria Ares 06:37Absolutely. You need to be able to learn how to learn before you can start learning and being able to use your developing executive function skills to you know, complete different tasks in the classroom, make a project, follow directions, all those things are so important to academics and academic development, but you really can't make much progress academically, if you don't know how to learn first, Hannah Choi 07:01That reminds me of the idea of metacognition, where you in, in order, like as in, which is actually like pretty much the last executive function skill to fully develop. And the idea of metacognition is like learning how we learn, learning about our own brains and how our own brains work. And so it's kind of the same idea like these, the little kids can't really learn the academics until they learn just how to function with other people.Maria Ares 07:30Absolutely, yeah. And that metacognition piece is something that I think a lot about in my teaching. And I tried to help kids remember that everybody learns differently, and that everybody has different strengths, and everybody has different things that they need to work on. I really try often, after a task to ask, "Was that tricky for you? Or was that easy for you?" And then talk about why because starting to build those metacognitive skills, and understand that everybody's brain works really differently, I think is really important. So they can get to know themselves as a learner. And as a person.Hannah Choi 08:10I was just talking with my college client of mine the other day, and we were talking about how exactly that about how, if you have never been taught to notice how you experience things. And notice what like, what's tricky, what's easy. And then you can figure out the why if you've never been taught that, then well, first of all, it's never too late to learn that. But you've really missed out on some really great opportunities to, like learn about your own learning. So I love hearing that you do that with such little kids, because it is something that you have to practice. And I feel like as an adult, I don't remember learning that as a child, I don't remember learning, reflection, and to really think about how I do things and why I do things. And so it's it's great to hear that you're teaching that that early.Hannah Choi 09:07Right and I feel like as a kid, I had an idea of what should be easy and what shouldn't be hard and that wasn't always what I found. And I think that making it an individual thing can really help with self esteem because like Oh that one thing is supposed to be easy, but it's actually really hard for me. If you get if you if you get rid of that whole "is supposed to be easy piece" and think about you as a person and whether it's easy or hard for you that I think that can really help develop a you know, a stronger sense of selfHannah Choi 09:44And comparing yourself to yourself. This used to be hard. And now it is getting easier for me, instead of comparing yourself to other other kids, other people around you teaching kids to learn to compare themselves to themselves and not to anyone else and learn about how they learn. It's also a really great lesson for parents to learn, too. I imagine that let's look at your child's development, your child's progress, just compared to where they've come from, and not necessarily against any other children. Maria Ares 10:18Oh, yeah, totally, especially if there's siblings on the picture. Hannah Choi 10:21So the you I mean, you are saying that there are executive function challenges in pretty much every area off the top of your head? What are some of the most common would you say that you see in your, in your practice in your classrooms? Maria Ares 10:36Yeah, something that first comes to mind is like multi step directions. This can be really hard. attention span, understanding of your own strengths and weaknesses. Problem solving can be really challenging for some kids, and understanding of time is a huge one.Hannah Choi 10:57So do you think that executive function skills are something that parents, like, should spend time working on with their kids? Or are they just going to naturally evolve?Maria Ares 11:08I think the best thing for parents to do is to do a lot of modeling, modeling of your language modeling of planning, talking about the process for things, talking about how you can be present so that you can pay attention. But not you know, not. But I don't think that parents need to be specifically practicing any of these things, because like, we were saying it's developmentally appropriate for kids to still be working on that. But some things that I think can be really helpful are like before doing errands, you can talk about the plan, you know, each thing that you're going to do, and whether it will take a short time or a long time. And then when you're talking about time, I think making it relatable can be really helpful. So while two minutes, I mean, they don't really understand numbers, they also don't really understand time very well. So saying something like this will take as long as it takes to brush your teeth. Or this will take as long as one episode of Masha and the Bear, or this will take as long as it takes to drive to your grandparents' house. And then also give them the number to go along with that. So they start to learn, okay, five minutes is the kind of short time, you know, doesn't take me very long to do something that takes five minutes. But then an hour is like my entire lifetime, a super long time. So then just using those examples, and using that modeling can start to build the foundation of, you know, understanding time management and sort of what we can fit into certain blocks of time. Another tool that can be helpful, is if your child really struggles with multi step directions, or like a multi step plan, just writing out a super quick visual, with maybe a little picture of everything that needs to happen. So maybe they need to put on their socks, put on their shoes and wash their hands or something, just drawing a little picture of each of those and then helping them sort of check it off when they're done with it can really help with the planning and the executing of a of a project or just a multistep task.Hannah Choi 13:22And if someone is not an artist, are there resources online, I'm imagining you can grab some clipart from somewhere.Maria Ares 13:33Yeah, for sure. There's lots of different resources out there. I'm sure there's lots of free resources, but less than pics is a really great website for getting pictures like that. But honestly, you know, you don't need to be an artist stick figures are great. Doodles are great. I think just getting the idea down on on paper or on a whiteboard or something can be helpful.Hannah Choi 14:00And it shows like if you draw it, then it shows your child that it's that it's okay, if you don't have really great art skills.Maria Ares 14:07There is another opportunity to talk about that.Hannah Choi 14:12I love it. That's great. So what would you say that success looks like at this age? And I know that's, I know that's different for everybody. But would you what do you see first as success in that age group?Maria Ares 14:28Yeah, success can look different for every one. Because there are so many skills that our earliest learners are building. For some kids success might look like exclaiming that was easy, which shows that they're thinking about how tasks feel for them, you know, is it easy, is it hard? Success could look like executing both parts of a two step direction. For another success might look like remembering to put pants on.Hannah Choi 14:58Reminds me of a when I interviewed Fran, she said, kids with executive function challenges sometimes forget to put underwear on. So she said success in my house is when they remember to put underwear on.Maria Ares 15:12Yeah, it's it's hard to find a developmental milestone in early childhood that doesn't include executive function skills in some way.Hannah Choi 15:20 Yeah. And it also, something that comes up a lot for us as coaches is the idea of looking for those small wins. And, and it didn't, and especially with this little, these little guys, it's not going to be these huge, you know, they're not gonna like write a paper, and then have, you know, have all these like, massive accomplishments that they've made in their executive function skills, you know, it's going to be more subtle, I imagine.Maria Ares 15:48Absolutely. Definitely, definitely more subtle. You know, they're growing and developing so much every day. So there's so much to notice, and so much to celebrate. And it might not always look like executive function skills, but they're under there for sure. Hannah Choi 16:05And I imagined that there's like there is at any, any age, you might make some progress, and then and then fall back of it and then go forward.Maria Ares 16:15Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really important for parents to remember, you know, just how much their preschooler is learning and developing at one time. And, you know, if they were able to follow a two step direction last week, and this week, they're just, you know, having a really hard time with it. Think about the other things that they're developing that maybe their brain is focusing on a little bit more this week. And I think that we need to cut them a little slack personally, sometimes.Hannah Choi 16:49I agree, and it's, I guess, it's hard because the lens through which we are looking is from the point of view of someone with a fully developed prefrontal cortex and years of experience.Maria Ares 17:01Yeah. And it's also very easy for me to say this about my preschoolers, but when I'm talking about my own child, no, get those shoes on! Hannah Choi 17:08Yeah, That's right. Yes. It's just a two step direction. Yes, or when? When..or my 10 year old. When I say, "Could you put your clothes in the washing machine?" The second step is not mentioned. But it starting it is, is part of it. So he did. He did what I said. But yeah, you did not do the unspoken second step.Maria Ares 17:46Right. I recently made a, like a visual step by step chart for tooth brushing. After we had a little cavity incident. Yeah. So you know, I wrote, I'm just never going to not be a special education teacher. So there's charts and lists and everything in our house of how to do everything. But I had to make a new one, because I didn't include as my last step on the list to clean the spit out of the sink.Hannah Choi 18:16Oh, Yes!Maria Ares 18:20I mean, I thought you don't really need a step on a list for that.Hannah Choi 18:24But here we are. Here we are. And so does she do it now?Maria Ares 18:28Most of the time? Yeah. Right. Which is more than never before. So Right. There's progress. Yeah. And now we can just say, "check your list", rather than "clean the disgusting spit out of the sink", which is a lot easier and you know, feels a lot more. Just feels a lot better to say.Hannah Choi 18:49Yeah, and it takes a takes you out of the equation. You can blame it on the list. The list is the list is what it says. And who knows where that list came from? Yeah, select some internet list or something. All right. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Maria Ares 19:07Yeah, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. Yeah. Hannah Choi 19:11All right. Have fun with those little kids.Hannah Choi 19:13Thanks. Okay, so now that we've learned about our youngest children's EF skill development with Maria, let's move on to my conversation with Stephanie and Mariam to hear about elementary aged kids and their EF skills. Hi, Stephanie and Mariam, thanks so much for joining me today. Would you like to introduce yourselves? Stephanie, you want to go first?Stephanie Regan 19:35Sure. I'm Stephanie Regan. I'm an executive function coach with Beyond BookSmart and I've been working here at Beyond BookSmart for almost two years now. I was an elementary teacher and worked with children in different capacities for about 10 years.Hannah Choi 19:51Great. And how about you Mariam?Mariam Mahmoud 19:53I'm also one of the executive function coaches. I've been working with Beyond BookSmart for almost a year. I'm and I also have been a teacher since 2010. Working with kindergarten all the way to fourth grade.Hannah Choi 20:07Great. So you guys are the perfect people to ask, you have the executive function background and the elementary background. So great. Thank you for joining me today. So we are going to talk about executive function skills in elementary aged kids. So what do challenges look like at that age? And, you know, as, as I've talked about, in many episodes past, before this, we know that executive function skills develop over the beginning part of our lifetime and don't even mature until we're in our 20s, late 20s. And then, of course, we all have things that we still struggle with, even after that. But what do what are your challenges for kids who are in elementary school look like?Stephanie Regan 20:51I would say organization for for space and belongings is really huge. And what that looks like is a lot of students have a hard time remembering where to put things or where they've placed things or where things go. So that's really important. And also, I would say task initiation too, is hard, especially when you think about how impulse control is hard. And I think about that, when it's time to do homework, it can be really hard for a lot of students to begin homework, and not just kind of relax or do something else. That might be easier. I would also say self-regulation. Yes, definitely self regulation to again, and thinking about impulse control is another area to where executive function skill development is really important, because they're still learning to control their impulses.Hannah Choi 21:38Yeah, and that can show up, like you said, in emotion, it can show up in behavior, and it can show up in emotion. So yeah, yeah. And stuff like that self regulation piece is huge. I mean, even as adults, like how often like, I don't know, I want to throw a tantrum sometimes. But I have to regulate your emotions and appropriate way. And it's harder for the kids, because they're just not there yet. I know like, as a parent, my kids at home have certain things that they struggle with. And I'm sure in the classroom, they also have things that they have to work on. So where do, where do executive function skill, challenges show up for kids in the classroom?Stephanie Regan 22:15In the classroom, it can look like following directions, especially one step at a time. Sometimes directions can be complicated, or it can seem complicated to different students. So really, it can also come down to meeting steps broken down into smaller steps for students. So that's often where it can show up in the classroom. And I mean, there are a myriad of ways in which they can, but I feel like as far as following directions, and following routines.Hannah Choi 22:46That's that. And there's, I was just gonna say there are so many executive function skills involved in following directions, right? You like you have to memory you have to remember the steps you have to pay attention. You have to prioritize the knew the steps that you're supposed to be doing over the other thing that you want to do or that you weren't doing. Stephanie Regan 23:06Yeah, so many involved, not to mention distractions in the classroom, full of students. So, there's a lot going on.Hannah Choi 23:15Yeah, so that self regulation piece and impulse control.Mariam Mahmoud 23:20I wanted to add also organization, like just if a teacher gives a paper, like just getting the paper from the classroom to the house that you like, you have to know where to put it, and who to give it to you what stays home and what comes back. Stephanie Regan 23:32So these executive function skill challenges can also show up during recess. On the playground. So again, thinking about self-regulation, it can be hard to not just make friends, but also share friends. That's come up with a former younger client of mine. And also negotiating play can be really hard. I know, when I was a teacher, there was a rule. That was you can't say you can't play. But it's easier said than done. So self regulation during recess is a huge piece. And some students know, I shouldn't say know, but it's easier for some students to have unstructured time than is for other students. And recess can feel really unstructured. And sometimes, I mean, that that can be good. And it can also be challenging for for students. SoHannah Choi 24:29Yeah, I was just, I was just talking with my my son's friend. So my son is in fifth grade. And I was talking with his friend, and, and his friend was saying he does not like recess. And he was saying he doesn't like it because it's so crazy. And it's so yeah, I guess he didn't use the word unstructured, but I kind of read that, that's what he meant. So yeah, yeah, you just think of it as every kid would just like it because it's a break from doing work. But for some kids, it's it Can we I know I see that it is hard. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Thank you for mentioning that. Do you have anything you wanted to add Mariam on that?Mariam Mahmoud 25:09Um, I don't think so I think like recess, some usually when we think of executive function skills, we're thinking of like school in like the content area, but like recess is just as important because school is not only for the educational purposes, it's also for the social purposes. So I think like, it was really important that Stephanie mentioned that recess is a huge, huge place where we see those skills take take place, or evolve over time.Hannah Choi 25:36Yeah. And and it shows how truly involved in every aspect of our lives as adults, and as children, aren't these executive function skills come into play, and they truly are self management skills, and, and how it can show up in different areas and how it can also really challenge kids and adults. But mostly, you know, we're talking about kids today really challenged kids, especially because they haven't fully developed them yet, especially there, many of them are still emerging in elementary school, they're just starting to, you know, just starting to access that whatever skill. So it's, it's a Yeah, no wonder it can be challenging. And I think understanding that is it as a parent, or as a caregiver, as a teacher understanding that can make a really huge differenceStephanie Regan 26:30It can. I know, it can be easier when you're in the place where we can take a step back and really think about it from a different perspective or think about it from a more objective view.Hannah Choi 26:40Yeah, yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. And that makes me think of how nice it is to have someone who is not, not like super super, as involved with your kid as you are as a parent. So like a teacher can maybe teach some of these skills to their students, in a like, less fraught way that it might be for a parent, or like a coach or something, somebody who's outside of the family a little bit, and not like with a child all the time with all the baggage that comes along with the relationships we have with our kids?Mariam Mahmoud 27:19Absolutely. I mean, I have two children. One is like, very, very organized. And my younger one is also in fifth grade. And sometimes I'm like, even though I'm an executive function coach, and elementary school teacher, sometimes it doesn't work when I'm telling him the advice. But if it comes from a teacher, or from the coach, then he's like, the next day, like, he's slowly getting it. And I'm like, okay, awesome, as long as the help comes from somewhere, but yeah, it does. It matters. Like sometimes parents, no matter how much we want to get to through to our children coming from outside, like might have a different effect on them.Stephanie Regan 27:56Yeah, that's true. And sometimes it's also a matter of reinforcement. So they're not just hearing it from from mom or dad, who they, you know, have to, you know, see, well, all the time as soon as they see all the time. But, you know, students spend a lot of time with their teachers as well. But it can help too. And you're, you're hearing getting more than one place. Absolutely.Hannah Choi 28:16So that makes me think like, How can parents support their kids executive function, development without? Or maybe not without friction? Because there's going to be friction, that's just part of the relationship. But how are some ways that parents can support their kids?Mariam Mahmoud 28:35Well, I say like, I think like, the best thing, especially for elementary school students is like I turn everything into a game, or something you'd like have them play, like plan that the activity or the school, like, whether it's school, or sports or like a fun activity at home, have them plan it out beforehand. It helps them reach whatever the goal is in mind, and have them thinking, "Oh, what, what do I want to accomplish? And what steps am I going to take to get there?" Like some activities, if you're reading a story at home, you could stop and ask the question like, "What would you do if you were that character?" Or what would happen if the character was different in the story, this helps, it gets their cognitive thinking, like, oh, like, maybe I shouldn't be upset, or maybe the character shouldn't be upset. And then they like kind of connect that to self to what's happening in the real life. So the text to self connections is really important. You can also play like those games, like Simon Says, or card games card games is like my own children, they love card games. It helps with the memory skills, it helps with like paying attention, it helps with a lot of those executive function skills in a fun way. It also allows them to take turns, follow directions, and even like that impulse control, like it helps them like they have to wait their turn or like they can't just like call out so It's a it's a fun way where they're learning the executive function skills, but at the same time, they don't know. It's like learning.Hannah Choi 30:06Yeah, exactly. Right. They're actually learning a ton of stuff. Yeah. And that's also good too. Because as parents, it can often end up that the interactions that we have with our kids are not always super fun. So, so giving, giving yourself a chance to just play and have fun with your kids, while also teaching EF skills at the same time, is really great. Yeah, I think for me, definitely getting out of the way, and trying to trying to move them towards independence, and also move towards having more positive interactions that have less to do with, what do you need? What do you need to do? Are you doing what you need to do? Why aren't you doing this? So being able to support them in that way, is really nice. So I'm a coach, I'm an executive function coach, I have, you know, a ton of knowledge and experience supporting people and kids with executive function challenges. And I've, you know, done a lot of research on it. I mean, I host a podcast about it. So I have a lot of knowledge. And I still struggle to come up with tools and strategies that I can use for myself, but also that my kids can use so that we can work on developing theirs, and also give them this independence and this autonomy that they crave. And that I need for them to have, so that I can you know, just do my live my life. So what are your further things that come up for kids like the organization and the self regulation and the task initiation? What, what are your go to go to tools that you teach to your clients and to their parents?Stephanie Regan 31:50Well, I would say my go-to tool is a checklist. It sounds really Yeah. and straightforward. And I mean, it's a tool that I use on a weekly basis. So it can be easier to teach it and support it when you use it. So I think having a checklist, an example would be a checklist for an after school routine. And that could look like, you know, come home, put my bag away, eat a snack, start homework, it can have a number of things on it. But I think it's good to keep it to like three or five things. I also think if it's visible and accessible, then it's more helpful. So with that in mind, I think it's important to place it where the client or student can see it at eye level, and it can help I think, ease any tension or frustration around reminding your student or reminding a child of what he she or they need to do when they get home. You can also refer to it like, oh, like remember, you have a checklist that you like, do this, or did you do that? Or what is your checklist, say and if it's at eye level, then the student if the if they're if they can read, then a student can refer to it. And also it's important to use simple language toHannah Choi 33:08Or pictures as well. Right? Yes.Stephanie Regan 33:10Pictures. I do like to use pictures. I won't say I'm a visual learner, because you learn differently. You learn different subjects differently or different topics differently. But I I do like visualization. And I do like pictures that can go along with words or phrases, if not, if I think it's necessary. So that can also be really helpful.Hannah Choi 33:36Yeah, we have a list on our door that goes out to the garage with the things that the kids need to bring in. And it's really nice to just be able to say, "Did you check the list?" I don't have to get involved. I just have to say, "Did you check the list?" I had to make the list, but and I hung up the list. But after that, all I have to say is "Did you check the list?" And then if they didn't check the list, you know, that's on them. So and I mean, my kids are older. So it is easier for me to say that's on them if they didn't check the list, but we scaffold them right? We maybe support them if they forget something on the list and then move them towards leaving it up to them if they forget things on the list.Stephanie Regan 34:13And there can become a point in time where they memorize the list. Oh, yeah, hi is a few things on the list and you don't really need to point it out. You know, they can they might come to a place where they have it memorized which is good too.Hannah Choi 34:25Yeah, I was just talking last night with a friend of mine whose kids are in second and third grade. And she was saying that that she was sharing that she also has a checklist for the morning and it says "pack backpack" and she said she's so funny, she was like "I used I even used indented bullets." So she has packed backpack and then indented bullets. And then it lists the things that go into the backpack and she noticed that her son had not been putting the snack in and she's like, why didn't you put the snack in? He said well because it didn't say pack snack. She's like me, it's just to take the pack from the top part. Pack the indented bulleted things. Stephanie Regan 35:04So, yeah, yeah, reminder that students can be very literal people very, very literal. Not just children!Hannah Choi 35:12Don't assume! And yes, that is such a good point. Stephanie, I completely agree. Yes. What about you, Mariam? I'm, what do you like to use?Mariam Mahmoud 35:22No, I honestly like the same as Stephanie, those checklists. For the younger students. When my children were younger, I instead of doing it over and over again, like, I just put it in like, one of those sleeves, like a paper protector, and kind of turned it into like a dry erase thing. So they would check it off, then I would erase it and then use it again. Yeah, brilliant. And putting it on the refrigerator or the same spot every day, like just having it there. Or like, when they were like, a lot younger, any, like little magnets interact and be like, Oh, I got it's on instead of a checklist, like just put like a little tiny magnet.Hannah Choi 35:58Oh, yeah. Smart. I know. Something that Oh, go ahead. Sorry.Stephanie Regan 36:03I was gonna say I'm an adult. And I like checking things off. In Google. I still get satisfaction from checking things off my grocery list.Hannah Choi 36:14yes, I'm the same way I use any list. And when you tap, it disappears. It's very satisfying. Yeah. I also am a big fan of writing things that I did on my list. So if it wasn't on the list, but I did it, I still write it on the list and then cross it off. After the fact.Stephanie Regan 36:33I was gonna say what you said about like, doing things that weren't on the list reminded me of five minute goals, or the idea of doing like, what you can have five minutes, because you could actually end up doing a lot more than you think you thought you could. Another good strategy or tool was like, okay, like if, if something is a fight, or a struggle with your child at home, or even a student at school, or a client during a coaching session? The Five Minute goals out okay, well, let's see how much you can get done in five minutes. And a lot of times, it's also been three minutes with a particular client of mine, but it's like, what, what can you get done in three minutes? And that I set a timer, it can also turn into a game, or it can be more fun. Hannah Choi 37:16So yes, like they're racing. Yes. Yeah.Stephanie Regan 37:20Doing more than you thought you could is also it can also boost self esteem and, and what have you, so that that's also good to.Hannah Choi 37:27Absolutely I love that tool.Mariam Mahmoud 37:29It also enforces our time awareness. Like they're like, Oh, well, that was five minutes, and I was able to put my shoes away and get my backpack out and get a snack or whatever they could do in five minutes. Like, they're usually very, like, amused or amazed that they could, they could do that much in five minutes. So.Hannah Choi 37:47I was I had that experience. When I, I, we have a gas stove. And I really hate cleaning it off after we cook dinner because you have to like, lift up the grates. And there's so many crevices. It's so annoying. And so I found myself avoiding it, which is gross. And then it looks gross. And and so I said oh, you know what I'm gonna time myself is I think that it takes me about 10 minutes. It took me four minutes, like four minutes top to bottom even wiping down the oven door and the handle on everything. Like Hannah. So every time I don't want to clean off the stove at night, I always say four minutes, you have four minutes. Yeah, it's a really good tool. The other thing I really like about five minute goals and that I always say to myself, and anyone else that I'm suggesting use it is that when that timer goes off, and whether you've set it for two minutes or five minutes or whatever, you can then either decide to be done, or keep going. And it's really nice, because it's like a built in permission to be done. I'm only asking you to do this for five minutes. Oh, you're you're into it. You're like, oh, maybe I'll just keep going. Alright, then keep going. But if you're like, No, this sucks, and I don't want to do this anymore. Then you stop it. I really I like that. That flexibility built in.Stephanie Regan 39:04Yeah, I was gonna say it's good for task initiation and also cognitive flexibility, too. It's like, Oh, that wasn't so hard. Maybe I can keep going.Hannah Choi 39:15Right totally gets you to change your perspective on it.Mariam Mahmoud 39:18Absolutely. I use that strategy actually, for my, my one son, he hates going outside. Like he just doesn't like playing outside and the other one like really enjoys it. So I'm like, Just 10 minutes a day after school just go out for 10 minutes a day. And he's out there for like 20-30 minutes like he absolutely loves it. Um, so I'm like this really like it worked. Just setting that and sometimes like if he's tired, he's like, it's a 10 minutes up, but for the most part, like it got him to go outside more, which was really great at our house, at least.Hannah Choi 39:48Yes. And that brings me back up. Always, always, always just start small, right? Anything that can that feels like it's going to be hard. Feels like it's going to be Challenge start small, which is the same thing when you are implementing new strategies that you're using with your kids to try to make some change in either your relationship with them or trying to build autonomy and independence for them. So you have to start small, this is not a change that's going to happen overnight. It's not, you know, you can't all of a sudden throw all these tools at your kids, and be like, tada, magic. It just doesn't work that way. And there's going to be times that we slip, and there's going to be times that, that we forget. And it's just easier for us to just pack their backpack because we're late. And I just want to pack your backpack because you're not doing it right anyway. But as long as as long as we recognize that is not going to happen overnight, and just do small steps, small steps working towards that independence, I think, at least for me, personally, and what I've seen in my clients, it makes a really big difference.Mariam Mahmoud 40:55Absolutely. And celebrate those small successes too. It's really important if they forgot their backpack for a week, and they finally remembered it, but they forgot to put their Chromebook inside. At least they remember their backpack. So like it's a small, those small steps, but celebrating it because it makes a huge difference when you're like, Oh, awesome job, great job bringing your backpack every day. They get that sense of pride. And they get the sense of oh, you know what, I could keep doing this? And I could add on?Hannah Choi 41:24Yeah, and they start to see the benefit of doing absolutely, yeah. And that makes me think about how, like, we only have the lens that we have through which to look like we are adults. And we are looking at their situation through this adult lens. And so sometimes it can be really hard to understand like, why can't you just remember to do whatever it is that I've just asked you to do? So I think, let me do you see that a lot when you're working with parents and their kids like helping the helping each other understand that we're all coming from a different perspective?Mariam Mahmoud 42:02Absolutely. I think that's one of the biggest things that we have to actually talk to parents about it, just put yourself in their shoes. Yes, it is easy for us, because we've already been through it. Or like been, been through something similar to it, you know, like, we can think of a time that you forgot about your dentist appointment, your doctor's appointment, or you forgot to turn off the stove, when you're making tea, I'm like, it happens to all of us. So we really have this, tell them like just try to think as like the five year old or seven year old or even the teenagers, like there's a lot going on in their mind. It might not be on their top of the things to do is to take their backpack to school, like maybe they were really nervous about a test or, you know, one of their friends were sick or something happened, you know, we just have to always think about what are they feeling?Hannah Choi 42:56Yeah, yeah. And that's why I like that whole...like, for anyone who's listening right now, like you're, you're taking the time to maybe learn something and maybe find something that can help you understand your kids, or maybe ease some of the friction or conflict between you and your kids. And then that's how, like our kids can learn from the role models that they have. And if they if like from their teachers, or their elder siblings, or if they have a coach, just they're just still learning and we were all still learning. I don't know, I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say.Stephanie Regan 43:34We're definitely all still learning. And I mean, I have my own example of I mean, I don't know if I should lead with logical consequences, but because it doesn't always it doesn't feel good when you forget to do something. And you know, because there's, you know, the intention of doing it, and there's the impact. You know, it's one thing if it affects you, it's another thing if it affects someone else, but I was just thinking how I mean, it can be good. If it's a small logical consequence. That's not detrimental. For students to be like, oh, like, I didn't, this would, I mean, be for an older client, but I you know, I didn't look at Google Calendar and I've got to have a quiz, a science quiz. So the logical, you know, the, so there's a consequence of forgetting the quiz, which stinks and then But then there's like, Okay, so next time I'm going to do this. Yes. Which is really important for for that awareness. metacognitive awareness and growth as well.Hannah Choi 44:37So do you guys have any other go to tools that you'd like to share with your clients and parents,Mariam Mahmoud 44:41So one go to tool that like, I think all my clients love once I tell them about it as a fastbreak plan. It's basically like, Okay, I have homework to do, and I have studying to do and I have to walk the dog and my chores to do but I also want to play my video games. So it's coming home and having the child like come home, right from school and do everything that's like a priority according to the parents standards. Just break it up like, Okay, let's do read your reading vocabulary words for 30 minutes, then you could do like a five minute or 15 minute break, then let's get back to doing maybe your math work. This will take like, maybe 20 minutes, okay, then let's take a break. I'm just having those little like brain breaks in between it really lets the child kind of have a sense of their own schedule. Like, yeah, I could do this or I could do that and get the child involved with the fastbreak plan, right? It sounds like does this work for you? Like one of my children, like he gets home, he wants his work, done his homework, like he wants it out of the way. The other one, like he is tired from work, and he's like, I want to play first. And I'm like, Okay, let's come up with a routine that works for you. I mean, it took me a while to get there. Because I'm like, No, it has to be like this. But once I have, like, I listened to him, and I told him, like, he told me what he wants to do. Now he gets all of his work done. But he's not doing it, how I would do it, but that's totally okay. He's using basically that fast break plan where he gets the work done. But he has that time to play and just kind of relax in between.Hannah Choi 46:15And I love how you brought up how, like for you, that's not how you would do it. But you you were able to see from his point of view, this is this really is gonna work for him and how his sibling is, had to approaches it differently. And my kids are the same way. My fifth grader he wants to come in, he wants to get his homework done right away. He doesn't want to have anything that he needs to do. And then he can just go and do it. And then my daughter, she likes to kind of spread it out over the over the evening. So yeah. And I think I think that's really hard to do. I mean, it's hard to do, it's hard to see other people's perspectives, like regardless of who the person's perspective is you're trying to see, it's hard to do, and I do, I really think it's, it is absolutely worth taking the time to try to understand. And you know, and if they come up and like I love how you said get them involved. So they come up with a plan that does really work for them. Why do they have to do it the way you would do it? As long as it's working for them? Why not? Why not? Let them discover that on their own? And how much? How many lessons in independence and autonomy does that teach them?Mariam Mahmoud 47:24Absolutely not to mention, it really does reduce that friction. Like it like,Hannah Choi 47:29It gets you out of the way!Mariam Mahmoud 47:31Oh, I wish I did this a long time ago, like it really like, right? He's doing his work. He's getting everything done by the end of the night, which is the end goal anyways. So I actually never works well.Hannah Choi 47:42Yeah. And the consequences, the natural consequences, logical consequences that you were talking about before Stephanie? Like, okay, so here, I'm going to let you, you know, build this plan, and I'm going to, I'm going to trust you to work through this plan. And if you don't manage your time, well, and you are still you know, up doing your stuff late or you didn't get it done, and then you don't get to turn it in, then there's a consequence. And then maybe you are able to, to, you know, learn from that for the next time. And I think, as parents and maybe even as caregivers not not in the role of a parent, but even as a teacher, especially with younger children. You don't want your kids to experience those natural consequences, you don't want them to have a negative experience, you don't want them to feel bad, you know, you just want them to have this like happy existence where they don't experience those negative feelings. But that's where they learn. And that all those opportunities to learn all that is only going to serve them really well as they get older, and the challenges get bigger, and their responsibilities get bigger. And so if we're constantly trying to protect them from those negative emotions, whatever it is, by doing all the things that they forgot for them, then they miss out on a lot of learning opportunities. I think it is important to consider if you have the time and the bandwidth to consider the different aspects of each situation that can be helpful. Mariam Mahmoud 49:13Absolutely. And give the child time as well. Like if if they make their own schedule, and they're like it's gonna work and the first day they didn't get their homework done. It's not going to change overnight. Again, it's progress, like so what I usually do is like, let's try it for a week or two. And then we talk about it what worked, what didn't work, let's tweak. I mean, as long as their grades aren't going down, and there's they're not forgetting their backpack every single day. I let them learn from the natural consequences. And then we talk about what worked what didn't work, and we change it, because that's how they learn.Hannah Choi 49:44Yep, yeah. And it really does take a long time. It's not it's not overnight. I mean, not even for us, you know, it's as caregivers it's it doesn't happen overnight, either. Like if we're trying to change our approach to our parenting. It doesn't happen overnight. So you Yeah. So as for kids who have for kids who have coaches or who maybe they have like a tutor, or, you know, they work one on one with a specialist, how, how do you guys see parental support coming in? They're like, how did how do you? How do you work with parents of young children.Mariam Mahmoud 50:25Um, for me, I just I let the parents know that like, let the child's practice. If we're working on something in the coaching session, like just practice what we're working on reading for us, for Beyond BookSmart, we have those portal notes, right, where you kind of communicate with the parent, what's going on, let them read the portal, make notes and understand what the tool is, share, like sharing the tools that you use at home with the coach or the tutor or even the teacher, just be like, Oh, we use this at home, like, as simple as color coding. Maybe you could try it in the classroom, it really helps when there's that communication. So communication is like the top key of helping the child no matter who they're learning it from. It helps us work together and help them succeed, which is the main goalHannah Choi 51:15It really reinforces that consistency, which is what you need to find any success. Is there anything else you guys would like to add? In your experience as as coaches of young children? Is there anything? Any takeaways that are really relevant for, for Listen, our listeners.Mariam Mahmoud 51:35I think just basically, just like we said, like communication, and patience, and just consistency is really, really key to having your child succeed. And working with the teacher with the administration, with the coach, with the tutor, no matter who your child sees, even if it's if they're basketball or baseball or playing a sport. Just knowing what your child is working on, and having that open communication could help them succeed.Stephanie Regan 52:04I would say the goal is progress, not perfection.Hannah Choi 52:08Absolutely. Yes. i When I interviewed Peg Dawson, she said progress. She said her colleague had a thing on the wall that said "Progress is measured in in years and not months". So it just it does. It does. Takes a while. Yeah. Great. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining me today.Stephanie Regan 52:29Thank you for having us. Mariam Mahmoud 52:30Thank you.Hannah Choi 52:32And that's our show for today. I hope you enjoyed our conversations about executive function skill development in our youngest kiddos, and that maybe it helps with some of those challenges we experience while parenting or teaching them. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. Please share our show with the people in your lives who might like learning about EF skills and little kids, you never know. It might just make a huge difference for them. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. And if you listen on Apple or Spotify, give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyondbooksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

Are you a big fan of "Blades of Glory"? If so, don't miss out on this podcast episode featuring Dave Krinsky, "Blades of Glory" writer.Show Notes:Dave on Emmys: https://taylorwilliamson.comDave's Wikipedia: https://www.instagram.com/taylorcomedy/Dave on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2743976/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutomated Transcript:Dave Krinsky (00:00):It's so funny in animation because we would do like a big, you know, Hank football. We'd do a big football episode with a lot of people in the crowd, and James would be like, okay, this is really streaming the animators. We can't do another big one next week. So next week we'd go, look, this is a very simple episode. It mostly takes place in the house. It's a very personal story between Hank and Bobby. He's like, Ooh, that's gonna strain the animators. It's gonna require a lot of acting . Yeah. I'm like, ok. So wait, we can't do anything.Michael Jamin (00:25):You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael, Janet.Michael Jamin (00:33):Hey everyone. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this, the podcast. I got another amazing guest today. I'm here with my many, he's been my next guest, has been my boss on many occasions. He's been my friend on one occasion, . And he's . Here he is. Boy, this guy's got good credits. So this is Dave Krinsky and he's a feature writer, show creator. He ran King of the Hill for, what was it, eight years? Eight seasons weDave Krinsky (00:59):Ran. Yeah, I think maybe seven. I can never quite keep track.Michael Jamin (01:02):Felt like eight. Right? He was a show runner, king of Hill for, for many seasons, but a writer on, I think you wrote on every single season, didn't you?Dave Krinsky (01:08):Yeah, we came in right after the first season had just aired. Right. So they were still rewriting and posting season one and starting writing season two,Michael Jamin (01:18):Jump and right in. And then also, we're gonna talk about everything, but I wanna give you a proper introduction. We wrote, co-wrote with his partner, blades of Glory. They ran a, a show called Lopez, which i, I worked on for a little bit. CRO created Silicon Valley. I've heard of that show. Also the Good Family that was a b c animated show ran Bebes and Butthead for a while executive produced movie called Extract. What, what else, what else did you, you did a lot of stuff, man,Dave Krinsky (01:46):Lady Glory. Did you mention that? Wait,Michael Jamin (01:48):I thought I said that. Didn't I not sayDave Krinsky (01:49):That? Yeah, you did. I tuned you out, Don Point. I've learned to tune you out early, soMichael Jamin (01:53):, but man, oh man, I wa how, but you also said, when we were chatting before we started recording, that you did a lot of movie rewr. I didn't even know you guys did other movie rewrites.Dave Krinsky (02:03):Yeah. So when we first came out, this was back, you know, like nineties. You really had to decide where you were. A movie writer, a TV writer. The agents didn't even talk to each other. So we had come out with some movie scripts. We just thought that was sort of the easiest way to break in. Right. And we had ended up selling a couple, we sold one to Warner Brothers. It was they bought it for Chevy Chase. And yeah. Then we got firedMichael Jamin (02:26):And they didn't make up obviously causeDave Krinsky (02:28):They, they didn't make it. We got fired and they hired someone else to rewrite. And our agent goes, that's great news. And I'm like, how's that? Great news? They go, it's not dead. If they're hiring someone else to rewrite it. And it was kind of an a-list writer, then that means it's still alive. But it ended up not getting made, although it's sort of, Ben made a few times because it was a very broad idea about a guy who, you know how we only use 10% of our brain's potential, right. While these scientists developed this serum that unlocked the other 90% instead of being injected in a, you know, good upstanding citizen like Michael Jamin. And it gets in, injected in this doofus Chevy Chase who basically becomes this like throbbing organi organism. He's got 10 times the site and after the hearing 10 times the athletic ability. So he is trying to like, make money and become famous with it.Michael Jamin (03:09):But So he was attached before there was a director or No.Dave Krinsky (03:12):So there was never even a director manager. He was attached, like Chevy Chase had a deal at Warner Brothers and Warner was looking for movies for him. So this, and then those days they were buying spec scripts left and right. Right. So they bought that from us and we spent like a long time rewriting it.Michael Jamin (03:26):So he was giving you the notes on what he wanted?Dave Krinsky (03:29):No, we never even met with him. I think, you know, I don't even know if you ever heard of it, to be honest, it really wasn't those days, Uhhuh , if you wanted a Chevy reputation movie, you bought 10 or 12 scripts and you developed until you found one that you wanted to do and brought to him.Michael Jamin (03:41):So you were dealing with his development people.Dave Krinsky (03:43):We were just dealing with Warner Brothers, Warner Brothers, and the producer. So the way it worked back then, and maybe they still did now, but the spec script market isn't really strong anymore. You would go to your agent with a spec and they'd go, okay, we're gonna send it to X producer who has a deal at Paramount and y producer who has a good relationship with Warner Brothers. And we're gonna, they're gonna go to the studios all on the same weekend and let 'em know. They have to decide. And then hopefully you get at least two offers so that you're playing 'em against each other. And that particular, we only got one from Warner Brothers, so the producer on the project we never even met until Warner Brothers had bought it. So then the producer, and it's a weird deal because we actually had a better relationship with the execs at Warner Brothers than we did with the producer. Like, we like their nodes better. So it's a weird political dynamic that you had to deal with. But we ended up selling a couple of projects that way that didn't get made. But ultimately when Blades of Gloria got made, then it was a ton of rewrite work. Michael Jamin (04:42):And then, but this was, this was during King of the Hill.Dave Krinsky (04:45):Bla Glory was during King of the Hill. I mean, we were doing our movie stuff before King of the Hill started. And, and we started looking around, you know, we sold stuff, but we weren't, we were, John and I were still sharing an apartment in Burbank and I was driving a car with no air conditioning. And I looked over at some of my buddies like Bill Martin, who was like buying a house and buying a nice car. And those guys were all on tv. And John and I were like, well, maybe we should, I mean, we always wanted to do tv but our agents just you, no, you're movie writers. So we ended up writing some TV specs scripts and then ended up getting a job in tv. But, so we were writing specs scripts, we were get assignments occasionally, or we would pitch on something, but it wasn't until Bla Glory that really was like, oh, okay, now we're getting a ton of movie rewrite.Michael Jamin (05:29):And then how did you know Bill Martin? Would you go to, did you go to college with him?Dave Krinsky (05:31):Yeah, we went to college together. So it was weird. It was like, it was me, John Bill, Peyton Reid, who directed all the Aunt Man movies. This guy John Schultz, who directed like Mike. And it was like we all kind of moved out here at the same time to try to pursue the business.Michael Jamin (05:46):Wow. I didn't even know that. And then, well, so was your, when did you decide that you wanted to be a writer? Like in high school or something?Dave Krinsky (05:53):Pretty much, I mean, I, I, this is make me sound really cool but I loved reading as a kid. I loved, you know, books. And I just loved when a story really impacted me and made me think. I was like, wow, that's a cool sort of power to have over people, to influence 'em that way. So since the time I was like 12, 13, I thought about it. And then in high school we had to write a short story for an English class. And I wrote this kind of science fiction funny story, and the teacher, you know, wrote a plus, what are you gonna do with this gift? And I was like, oh, I guess it actually could be a job. Right. So,Michael Jamin (06:24):But you think that it could be a job? Like I didn't, that didn't occur to me until I was older that you could make money in tv.Dave Krinsky (06:29):. Well, you know what I was thinking I'd be a book writer and so I went to Carolina cause I knew they had a strong English department. I took all the creative writing classes there. And since I didn't wanna really do anything else, I took whatever course I find. So screenwriting was one. Playwriting was one. And after I met John Alsk and my partner and, and David Palmer, who I worked with out here a bit.Michael Jamin (06:50):Wow. You were serious about it. Did you have to apply to those programs?Dave Krinsky (06:53):You know? Yeah, no, I mean, I, I was in the, I got accepted to the honors program, which was what I had applied for. And because of that I got to get into some of the writing classes I wouldn't have had access to anyway.Michael Jamin (07:05):So this is all or nothing for you? I mean, you, I mean, there was no plan BDave Krinsky (07:09):Well I, you know, my mom was always like, Ryan, you go to law school, you have something to fall back on. But I knew if I something to fall back and I'd probably fall back on it, you know? And, and it took us a while to get su you know, really established with Point. I could get rid of that crappy car with the o ac ac in the apartment with the oac. But if I had had the ability or the degree to do anything else, I probably would've bailed on the writing dream earlier.Michael Jamin (07:32):Right. Wow. And then, and then, so eventually you just had to move into tv and then how, I know, how did you get your first gig?Dave Krinsky (07:40):So we decided to move tv. We wrote a couple of spec scripts and I think it was Bill Martin who said, oh, you should meet Carolyn Strauss over at hbo o And Carolyn of course was, you know, at the vanguard of starting H B O when it was, yeah.Michael Jamin (07:54):Wait, he's setting up meetings for you? Like, he's like your agent now, bill? No,Dave Krinsky (07:57):It really was one of those things where it was like, we're like, Hey, we wanna get into TV doing, he goes, oh, well you should meet Ke Strauss. We like Hershey's really cool. And I think he might have told her, oh, you should meet these guys. Okay. And so we had a general with her and which was a good lesson. It was like, you know, I think we always had something to pitch. We always knew a general, everybody, you know, wants something. I can't remember if we pitched anything too specifically or not. Cuz in movies you always want to pitch an idea. Sometimes in TV it really is just a general Yeah. To see what you know. But, you know, it was a great meeting and nothing came of it. And then like nine months later we got a call from her and she goes, look, we're doing a show.(08:32): The showrunner really wants movie guys doesn't want like, just TV sitcom guys. Wow. And I thought of you guys, you, you look, look at the pilot, they shot a pilot and they sent the pilot over. It was a black and white period single camera show. David Ledon was the executive producer. Adam Resnick was the showrunner, the creator. And it was awesome. It was like the Cohen Brothers really dark funny. And we were like, yeah. So she set up a call with us. We talked to Adam for like an hour and a half, mostly about Goodfellas and the Godfather and just movies. And then they called us up, goes, look, will you the show's in New York, will you move there? And we're like, yeah, we'll move there. She goes, okay, three or four days, can you move? And we're like, yeah, what do we don't have? I don't even think we had a plant in our place, you know, our fresh food. So we moved toMichael Jamin (09:18):New York. And you got outta your rent You? Or do youDave Krinsky (09:20):Remember? We sublet Cause it was a, I think it was a 10 episode order that became an eight episode order, which is now, you know, the norm. But then was like, okay, so we're only gonna be there probably nine months of production. So we figured why give up our place.Michael Jamin (09:34):Do you think if it wasn't a good show, you would've taken, if it was a bad show, you would've taken the author?Dave Krinsky (09:40):Oh, that's a good question. You know, probably not, you know, before this happened, we were in the movie biz. We, we had a meeting with Polly Shore, right. And Polly was manager was in the meeting and his manager was a gentleman named Michael Rotenberg, who is now my manager. And, and Michael and and Sea have, you know, allMichael Jamin (09:59):Times he's our dealt withDave Krinsky (10:00):Them. He was an executor on King of the Hill. So this was before King of the Hill even. And we pitched Polly the new line, wanted to do a movie where Pauly basically, they sound of mu they wanted him to be a nanny. And we pitched like Sound of Music with Polly going around Europe and Polly was as insulting and, and, and just not a good collaborate. He was just say, Hey, who are these greasy weasels? And you know, he just goes, no, just turn the camera on and I'll be funny. And we're like, okay. But John I think had like $93 in this bank account and I might have had a little bit more. And they offered it to us and we were like, this could be our career right. Path that we don't want to be on. And we turned it down. So I think if it was a crappy show, we probably would've turned it down too.Michael Jamin (10:45):Right. Wow. You turned it down. Cuz I, you know, now you, I think now you take anything you forgetDave Krinsky (10:50):. Yeah, well certainlyMichael Jamin (10:51):It's not you, but one, one does. Right.Dave Krinsky (10:53):And it's not a bad, it's not bad advice. You gotta get in the game, you know? So we had already been in the game just enough that it wasn't like we were completely unknown. We had anything produced, so we certainly weren't a hot commodity. Right. But we really felt like, oh, this could just pigeonhole us. And it was interesting because our agent was like, okay, if you don't wanna do it, fine, but we don't really want to be rude and turn it down, so we're gonna ask for way more money than they'll ever pay you. Right. So they went and asked for like $400,000 and they were furious anyway. They're like, who the hell do you think you are asking anymore? It's just like, sorry, we just don't wanna do it. So. Right.Michael Jamin (11:31):How funny, did you, were you, when you first got on King of the, or I guess not, well I guess, you know, on Resnick's show, were you, did you, did you find it over? You were in over your head? I mean, that's how I felt when we started.Dave Krinsky (11:42):Oh yeah. Because I was always that one of those writers, and I'm sure there's plenty like that. I'm like, I don't even in college where you had to like, give your scr your scripts or your stories to people to read. I'm like, I don't wanna do this. You know? Cause I just didn't have the confidence or faith in myself. So we got to New York and we were working at a Letterman's theater. And Adam's great. I mean, he is the nicest guy. He's a super small staff. There's this John and I, this other team and this guy Vince Calandra. Right. And I just remember like sitting in the writer's room, not saying a word because I was like, I don't wanna say the wrong thing and look like an idiot. And, and in all honesty, when I got to King of the Hill, I looked around, I was like, I recognize names from seeing him on The Simpsons and you know, my judge of course. And I was inhibited there too. And I barely pitched, I think for the first couple of months I was there.Michael Jamin (12:30):Really. And then what was the moment when you felt like you could, you could test the waters?Dave Krinsky (12:36):Well, what happened was, I was just hanging out enough, like, so in the lunchroom, you know, I got to be friendly with people and people go out for a drink and then it suddenly was a social thing. And I was comfortable in that and I could start being funny that way. So by the time I got back to the room after a couple of months, it was kind of like, oh, I was just bull bullshitting with my friends, you know? And it was much easier to pitch because Right. It felt safer,Michael Jamin (13:00):Felt sa because I even remember on Kingley we had some interns, people would sit in pitching and I'm like, how did they get over their fear of pitching when they haven't been hired as a writer? .Dave Krinsky (13:10):Yeah. I mean, and it, it's a good question for young writers and, and I'm teaching a class down at Chapman now and, and I'm like, it's a tricky situation when you're a new writer, you want to talk cuz you want to prove you're mm-hmm. worthy. But if you talk too much or talk poorly Yeah. It doesn't do you any good. And it really, in my opinion, when as a showrunner, I would rather you be quiet and sort of take it all in and pitch very occasionally, then feel like you've gotta pitch stuff that ends up derailing the room.Michael Jamin (13:40):You know, I, I totally agree with you. The one thing I've said, cause I think a new, let's say there's 10 writers in a room, and a staff writer often thinks, well I better speak a 10th of the time because I'm, there's 10 people here, but they're not getting paid a 10th. They're not getting paid as much as the co-executive producer. They don't have to contribute as much. You know?Dave Krinsky (13:56):Yeah. And it's not expected. Like, I've seen plenty of horrible showrunners who are punitive and, you know, they don't make it easy for a staff writer and they're happy to fire a staff writer every season and try someone else. But John, I have always been like, look, we're gonna bring you on board. We're gonna be patient with you. You know, it's like, it's not an easy position to be in. And, and when you're a showrunner, all you want is someone to make your life easier. And if a staff writer makes your life easier one time in a season, it's almost like, okay, you know what? I got something outta you. Great. WhatMichael Jamin (14:27):About that leap from, cuz I was there for that. You were, I guess it was season 60 started running it, is that right?Dave Krinsky (14:35):Yeah, six seven was our first official year running here. Billy,Michael Jamin (14:38):What was it like for you making the le because you know, everyone, you always think, I could do this job, I could do the job better than my boss. And then you become the boss and you're like, wait a minute, this is hard.Dave Krinsky (14:47):Yeah. Well I remember when on that Resnik show, there was a consultant there, and he told us, he goes, the punishment for writing well is producing. And it's like, you know, you work your way up and you become a producer and suddenly Yeah. You're managing people, you're dealing with all the politics, the budget. And I think the, the biggest thing that happened to me was we were working, and I can't remember if you were in the room or not. Do you remember Collier's episode about that Michael Keaton did? What The Pig the Pigs are? Yeah.Michael Jamin (15:15):I was there for probably, we probably got there for the animatic part of it. So we were didn't great itDave Krinsky (15:20):Okay. So it was a really weird story and Collier's a great writer, but this was one that was trouble from the get go just because it was so bizarre. Yes. And and I remember we were working super late trying to get to it and, and I think Richard Chappelle was running the, the show at that point. And he and Greg were developing a show and they left the room and everybody left the room. There was like four of us in there, and I think Greg or Rich Dave, you get on the computer and I and King of the Hill, the room, it wasn't like a conference room, it was like a big, almost like living room with a Yeah. Scattered room. One person sat there, it kind of ran the room. We didn't have the screen showing the script, which I never liked anyway. And I was like, I don't think I can run a room. Mm-Hmm. . And I got up there and I was just like, you know, I just did what I had to do. And I remember we, you know, spent a few hours, it was late night and we kind of like gave the script rich and Greg, and they came and got, this is great, this is working. And it was like, oh gee, so I guess I can do it. Right.Dave Krinsky (16:15):So when we took over the show, yeah. I mean it definitely was like, you, so many things were harder than you would think, but some were easier too. I remember the other showrunners before we run the show would come back from pitching the story. So the network, and they go, well, we sold six outta seven of 'em. So, you know, it wasn't easy. And then when we started pitching to the network, you know, the show had been on for six, seven years. They were like, okay, good. It was like, oh, this isn't that hard. Right. The hard parts were, you know, managing the budget, managing people, managing writers, dealing with the network.Michael Jamin (16:47):How much budget were you dealing with? Like, what were you, how big was it? Like, were you what? No, I mean, like what, what exactly were you doing? You know? Oh, yeah, because I, I don't really touch the, when we were running stuff, we don't really touch the budgets, butDave Krinsky (16:58):What do you, oh, so I mean, first it was the writer's budget, which every year was like, yeah, okay. Like, who can we afford to pay? But I mean, a lot of it, you'll remember our, our line producer McKinsey would walk in and be like, you know what? Last episode had a football crowd and this episode you want to do, you know, whatever a a crowd scene at the school, we can't afford that. The budget won't. Right. You know, so a lot of it was making creative decisions based on the limitations. Although it's so funny in animation because we would do like a big, you know, Hank football, we do a big football episode with a lot of people in the crowd and Jims like, okay, this is really streaming the animators. We can't do another big one next week. So next week we'd go, look, this is a very simple episode. It mostly takes place in the house. It's a very personal story between Hank and Bobby. And he's like, Ooh, that's gonna strain the animators. It's gonna require a lot of acting . Yeah. Like, ok, so wait, we can't do anythingMichael Jamin (17:52):. There's always a reason. That's right. There's always a reason why you're gonna ruin the show,Dave Krinsky (17:57):The bank.Michael Jamin (17:58):Wow. That's so, and now and then so what ha, so then after King of the Hill, which you guys did for many years, then it went down and they then went down for, I was probably a couple years it went down. Right.Dave Krinsky (18:10):I don't remember if it was a couple years because Yeah. So the show did not get picked up. Right. And then they moved John and I and Clarissa assistant onto the lot, into this crummy little office to finish posting the shows. Right. And so we were there posting the shows and we never left. I mean, by the time we, we, it's not like we were like home and done before we left there. They, they picked the show up again for another run.Michael Jamin (18:38):What was the thinking behind canceling and then picking it up again? Like why?Dave Krinsky (18:42):From what I hear Uhhuh, it's so, you know, Fox Network ran the show. Mm-Hmm. , 20th Century Fox was the studio who owned the show. Right. And apparently the, the heads of the studio got big bonuses when they got new shows on the air that were successful. So they weren't making a ton of money.Michael Jamin (19:05):Personally.Dave Krinsky (19:06):Personally. And the other thing, apparently they owned and operated cuz everything was syndicated. You know, in those days the package was so high for them to pay. As the show got on that they were like, wow, we gotta renegotiate this deal. So when everybody started renegotiating, it seemed like, okay, let's not do it. And then ultimately, I bet it was Aria Emmanuel fought for, cuz he was always fighting for it. But, or maybe it was Rotenberg, but yes, that's whatever they just decided. Okay. They made a deal and picked us back up again.Michael Jamin (19:34):And at that point it was, it was a lot of new writers, well most of the writers had moved on, but you were still on the show. So the cause you kind of restarted the staff was almost, as I remember it was almost almost brand new. There was only a couple pre previous writers, like Christie Stratton was there,Dave Krinsky (19:51):I think Christie was there, kit was there, kit Balls, GarlandMichael Jamin (19:54):Garland was there. Sure. Okay.Dave Krinsky (19:56):Yeah. So there was definitely a core group. I remember like, I can't remember Tony and Becky came on. Right. I don't remember if that was before that or not. So I think enough people, it might have been like, nowadays there's not really a staffing season, but I think it might have been during a non-st staffing season that enough people hadn't landed somewhere that we could get, get him back.Michael Jamin (20:15):Right, right. And then after that, you guys did The Good Family?Dave Krinsky (20:20):Yeah. So that was another, you know, people wanted an animated show from us. We had, you know, we'd gotten very close to Mike on King of the Hill. So started working together a lot with him. And we had this, this show The Good Family about a very you know, PC family, sort of the opposite of Hank Hill. And I just remember, you know, everybody was like, okay, take it to Fox and it'll run for forever. And it was just like, we just wanted to do things differently. And m r c and Independent, you know, studio had came out, came after us pretty hard and said, no, we want to do this deal. We can finance it and, and you can have a better upside and more freedom and Okay. So we decided to do it and we pitched it around and a B C just made such a hard press for it.Michael Jamin (21:03):OhDave Krinsky (21:03):Wow. And yeah. And it turns out they weren't the best partners simply because they didn't have any animation on. Right. They put us on with a really bad animated show, like after Wipe Out or something. It was just like not a good fit. Right. So, but it ends up, you know, the bottom fell outta the industry right after that cuz Rotenberg would call us up and goes, you know, your numbers would be a top 10 show like within two years. Right. We would've been like, fine. But at that moment just wasn't good enough numbers.Michael Jamin (21:30):And then, and then came, then they brought back Beavis and Butthead, which you guys ran, which was so interesting cuz that was a whole different experience that, that was all freelance. That's why you guys called us, Hey, you wanna write a briefs and Butthead? We're like, yeah, we'll do that.Dave Krinsky (21:43):Yeah. I mean, who wouldn't wanna have an opportunity do that? Right. Yeah. So Mike, they've always begging Mike to bring it back and he was always like, yeah, the situation has to be right. And he just felt like the timing was right. And he had some stories he wanted to tell and he loves doing them. I mean Yeah. You know, as he always said, king of the Hill requires a ton of effort for a little bit of output. Bvis requires a little bit of input for a ton of output. You know, people just love it and it's funny. Yeah. so yeah, so I mean, the budgets weren't super high and we couldn't license music anymore. I mean, and when Mike originally did it, it was all music videos because M T V owned all those videos. Right. But the world had changed so suddenly we were doing Jersey Shore and, and a lot of other like, reality shows. Cause that was the only sort of material we could get mm-hmm. . Michael Jamin (22:29):Yeah. But we, that's, we did like, because I remember we brought, you guys brought us in, there's a, there was a woman, a couple women in Detroit, it was so cold in the deed, had a song so cold in the deed. ColdDave Krinsky (22:40):In the de Yeah.Michael Jamin (22:41):And I don't remember how it happened, but I, I think I commented on on her, maybe on her YouTube channel or something. I go, this is a great song. And she went with nuts. She's like, oh, thank you so much, . She's, so, yeah,Dave Krinsky (22:53):It was a weird sort of viral head, I think almost before things really went viral. And it was just like a homemade video about, you know, living in Detroit and Michael Jamin (23:01):And how did you find all that stuff?Dave Krinsky (23:03):Mike had found it and just thought it was really funny and really interesting. And soMichael Jamin (23:06):He was just surfing the internet looking for like, real cheap stuff that he could get.Dave Krinsky (23:11):I don't even think it was like with an eye toward Bes, but he also was in this little network of like, Knoxville and Spike Jones. They all like send each other stuff. So I don't know where he got it from, but I think he just saw it. And, and, and you know what, I, I don't know, he's never said, but that might have been. But just to bring Bes back where he is just like, oh my God, they'd have so much fun with this.Michael Jamin (23:30):Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlistMichael Jamin (23:54):And then okay. So then what, what came after that?Dave Krinsky (23:58):So yeah, blades of Glory was in the middle of the King of the Hill era. Right. and then I guess Silicon Valley really would be the, the next big thing that,Michael Jamin (24:10):And Okay. How did you guys come up with that idea? Which is a pretty big hit.Dave Krinsky (24:15):Yeah. So that was an interesting confluence of events where Mike had been in talks with H B O, they really wanted to do something with him. And Scott Rudin wanted to do something in sort of the gaming space. Mm-Hmm. . So they were sort of circling around this tech world. And Mike's like, I'm not a gamer. I don't know that well, but Mike was an engineer, you know, electrical engineer, so he knew, you know that world well. Yeah. but John was reading the, the Steve Jobs book by Walter Isaacson and saw this quote in the book where it's like Bill Gates was making fun of Steve Jobs goes, he can't even code.Michael Jamin (24:48):Yeah.Dave Krinsky (24:49):So John had this idea. He goes, well that's a really funny world. And his, his brother was an electric engineer, so he knew that world as well. And you know, so we pitched an idea to Mike doing something that Mike goes, well, I would love to do that. So then when we pitched it to H B O, they were like, yeah, this sounds great.Michael Jamin (25:04):Sorry. Right. So you wrote the pilot shot it and you were, and then like what people don't understand is like the process for shooting a pilot or, you know, like it's a big deal. It's like a lot of work. It's like even casting is a lot of work.Dave Krinsky (25:18):Yeah. And it, it was a lot of work and, and you know, there's a lot of round, I mean, after to, you know, really it was pretty high on it even after our first draft. It felt like it was gonna move in the right direction. And I do remember them calling him saying, okay, we wanna shoot a pilot mm-hmm. . and we had just done a show for Nat Geo before this where the budgets, the budgets were, you know, very low. I can't remember what they were, but, so HBO calls saying, you know, look, the pilot's gotta, the budget's gotta have like a four or five in front of it and we're like 400, 500 grands ton, but we can probably do it. It was like, no, no, no. Four or 5 million, million(25:52):. And they, they actually forced us to go up to Silicon Valley to shoot for a few days, bring the whole company up and we're like, there's nothing up there. We can shoot this in la. You know, and we ended up shooting like on the side of a freeway and we had a couple establishing shots of Google and Facebook and Right. And stuff. But, you know, HBO does things and they want it to be authentic so you know, all the credit in the world to them. Right. and then, yeah. Then when we did an edit, it was interesting cuz the pilot to Silicon Valley has a very big subplot of these two women in LA who are tired of the LA scene and they go up to Silicon Valley cuz the guys are rich and nice and and nerdy. And they meet our heroes in the first episode. And h HP was like, yeah, you know, we don't want this storyline. We don't think we need it. So those poor actresses got cut outMichael Jamin (26:37):Mm-Hmm.Dave Krinsky (26:37): and yeah. Crushing. Crushing. Yeah. It's gotta be, gotta be tough to see a show be that and you're,Michael Jamin (26:44):And you were cut out of it. Yeah. Yeah. What now when you, I know you, you teach at Chapman, it's so interesting cuz some people are like, is film school worth it? It's like, it depends on who you get as your teacher. Like, honestly, it's like it, you know and I'm sure they're very lucky to have you. What do you, you know, what is it, what's it like with these kids? You know, what are you teaching them? What are, where are they coming from, I guess?Dave Krinsky (27:06):Yeah, so the class is writing for adult animation. So, you know, half hour animation was like King of the Hill and, and, and things like that. But you know, as you well know, writing for animation is very similar to writing for anything. You know, it, it really is. You still need your three x structure and everything you can just go a little crazier with with things. And yeah, I asked them all, you know, beginning, because it, a lot of people still ask me, is it worth going to film school? Look, film school's expensive if you can afford it. Mm-Hmm. , it's not a bad thing. And I think what these kids are getting, and I said kids, but a lot of 'em are in their twenties. I think one's in his thirties, Uhhuh, . They're writing constantly. Someone's making to, that's good.(27:45):They're in LA so they're exposed to people, you know, not Pam or something, but like me who have done it in the business. We're not just academics who have published books about things. You know, and, and you know, you know, Brian Behar is down there, there's a bunch of Jill Con, there's a bunch of people down there who are like, done stuff. And last week or the other day, Damon, the guy who did La La Land, I can never say his last name in Whiplash. Yeah. He was speaking tonight. Austin Butler's speaking. Like, they just have a ton of people coming through. So you have exposure to all these people who have done things. Yeah. You also have connections that, you know, if you don't go to film till you just have to move to LA and try to, you know, try to build yourself. So yeah. So I think it's a, it's a good thing if you can afford it. If you can't afford it, it is not, it is not worth stretching to do it because, you know, we moved to LA and we started networking and meeting people and kept writing and, you know, that's really how most people do it. DoMichael Jamin (28:40):You feel you have to beat misconceptions out of them? You know,Dave Krinsky (28:45):I think this is my first class and I'm teaching second year grad students. Mm-Hmm. , so they're fairly savvy.Michael Jamin (28:53):Okay.Dave Krinsky (28:54):I think they've been exposed to it enough that there's not a ton of misconceptions, but there are big gaps in their knowledge. Just, you know, as it would be with anybody who, who hasn't been in the business. So, look, I teach them things about structure. Things like things they've probably heard before, but in ways that, you know, I, here's mistakes I've made before. You know, having a scene have to carry double duty and a half hour show is really difficult cause you have to change gears within the middle of a scene. You know, keep it simple. So things like that, I should, but they definitely light up more to my more anecdotal stories. Like, what's it like to be in the room? What's it like to work for a showrunner who's, you know, marginalizing you. What I remember I talked to the other day, I go, yeah, so we have this if come deal. And I could say, I go, wait, do you guys know what NIF come deal is? And they're like, no. I was like, oh, okay. Well let me explain that. So Right.Michael Jamin (29:45):What do you tell 'em about the showrunners? Who, who, who marginalized you? What's your, what's your advice on that? I wanna hear it.Dave Krinsky (29:51):Yeah, you know, it's just tough. I mean, I just keep stressing to them that most showrunners are under so much pressure and stress. All they want is someone to make their life easier. Mm-Hmm. . So, you know, the better you can do that, you know, the better off you'll be. And sometimes it's uncomfortable, but you need, like you, well I guess you weren't there at the beginning, but the king of the hill, you know, Greg was running the show and he had so many things you were on, so he was barely in the room. Right. So you didn't really know what he wanted. You didn't know if your story was gonna work. So if you saw em in the break room or saw em in the hallway, you would be like, Hey Greg, this is what we're doing. You know, you try to get feedback from em.(30:31):So that's what I tell them. I go do get as much from the showrunner as you can. And some of them won't give you anything as they're not rooting for you to succeed, but get as much as you can from them when you can, because it doesn't do you any good to try to figure out what they're doing. I mean, you have to do that to some level. The more you know what they want. And that's why I tell these, you know, these kids are doing beat sheets and outlines. I'm like, be as specific as you can. Don't cheat yourself because I'm gonna read stuff you gloss over and go, oh, I guess they know what they're doing. Right. And then when you gimme a script and I'm like, wait, what if you had done that in your outline? I could have pointed it out at that stage.Michael Jamin (31:06):Right, exactly. And when you say, cause when you say you know, you just helped the showrunner out, like, to me, what I want as a showrunner, what I, I just want a draft that doesn't need a page one rewrite. That's how I feel. I mean, is that what you're talking about?Dave Krinsky (31:20):Pretty much, yeah. I mean, or look, if you're someone who can, who can, you know, have the joke or the story fix in the room that gets you all home sooner, then that's fine too. I mean, you know, I mean, at King of the Hill we had such a big staff, it's an animated show. There were people who turned in great drafts. There were people who weren't great draft fighters, where were great in the room. You know, so in those days you could build a big enough team that, you know, you could have a pinch hitter and a utility field or designated here. Now the staff are so small, you really do want someone, but you're right. I mean, to get that draft mm-hmm. that needs a ton of work, you're like, okay, this sets us back so much on everything else now we can't, now I can't be in the editing room now. We can't push that next week's story forward. It's like, now we gotta dig in on this one.Michael Jamin (32:03):And, and what, what is, I mean that's exactly, yeah, that's exactly the panic that I, I I used to feel. But what did you, what is the advice, like, cause the industry's really changing so fast now. Like what is the advice you give these kids get out of film school in order to get into the business?Dave Krinsky (32:20):Yeah. I te look, it's tough. You know, I always try not to be too negative about it because it's always been tough. It's just tough in a different way. Right. you know what I tell them is like, look, the movie business is extraordinarily difficult. Mm-Hmm. . So if you want to be a movie writer, that's fine. But, you know, I urge them like, TV seems to be a cleaner path. Yeah. It used to be with movies, at least you could write a spec at some control where TV had to hope somebody hired you. So now, you know, I say, look, if you have a good movie idea, think about it as a series because, you know, a-list actors are all doing tv. You know, there's a, there's, and obviously TV is in a, isn't a great state right now with just the quality of it. Yeah. but yeah, I mean, you really do just have to, the basics are right, right, right. Mm-Hmm. and network, you gotta be in LA you gotta be hitting all the places because you never know. Look, that meeting with Carolyn Strauss, we had like, it was a good meeting. It wasn't like, ah, we've made it, we've met Carolyn Strauss and it wasn't until nine months later that something on the game of it. Right.Michael Jamin (33:19):Right. So it's really about getting in those circles.Dave Krinsky (33:21):Yeah.Michael Jamin (33:22):Yeah. I mean I, yeah, I remember people say that all times. Do I have to be in la? I'm like, you don't have to do anything you don't want, but you know, this is where the fish swim. You know?Dave Krinsky (33:32):Yeah. I mean the, the thing is, and I think you've probably said for, it's like the material doesn't really speak for itself. Mm-Hmm. , like in movies, it used to like a good specs script would find, you know, a, a buyer mm-hmm. , you know, now there's very few ideas that someone's gonna go, well, I don't care who this comes from, I want to do it. You know, and there's, there's very few scripts that are good enough that any anybody's gonna be like, I'm gonna put this on the air. It happens. They are out there. But the vast majority of the time it's, I've been hanging out, I've been going to, you know, upright citizens for grade. I've been going, oh, I've been helping out on a student film. Right. Hey, that kid I helped out is now on the desk at uta. Does UTA even exists anymore? I don't know. You know, myMichael Jamin (34:15):Agent? Yeah. I'm not sure.Dave Krinsky (34:15):Yeah. It's c aa and it's like, you know what, he wants to be an agent, so he's trying to hustle. So he's gonna hand the script over to, and suddenly you have a meeting, you know, with an agent, a real agent. So that's how it mo mostly happens. And you gotta be in LA for that.Michael Jamin (34:30):Yeah, exactly. That's how I feel.Dave Krinsky (34:33):Yeah.Michael Jamin (34:34):So what now I know you also, oh, I wanna mention your, your book. Is it you, you and John, your partner are of the, like, of all the writing teams I've known, even writers I've known, like you guys are the most entrepreneurial, it seems like you, like, you know, there nothing, there's a, there's a path to do it and then there's always like, well let's figure out how else we can do them. You know, you're always like the hustle doesn't end and it's create, it's always like creating opportunities for yourself.Dave Krinsky (34:59):Yeah, I mean certainly. And John's much, much better at that than, I mean he has a very entrepreneurial spirit and I enjoy it though. I like doing things differently. But he's very innovative in the way he thinks he's been in Europe for since, for Covid and for a lot of that. Mm-Hmm. just, you know, kicking the tires in the international market and making some headway there. But like, I remember like a couple of years ago we hooked up and were producing this writer who had done a academy award, docu a nominated documentary, and he had a half hour sitcom and he was he was crypt camp, so he was in a wheelchair and it was a character was about his story. And it was a really cool story. And Obama's company was attached to it. And it was like, this is a great, I mean it's a great script, great project, you know, and we go to Netflix a Zoom pitch and they literally were like this.(35:47):But as soon as the camera came on, you're like, okay, this isn't gonna be a sale. Mm-Hmm. , I mean, we knew it from the get go. Good lesson is you still pitch your heart out cuz you don't wanna ever have to blame yourself. If they don't buy it, they don't buy it. But so was like, what, you know, it's a great pro. Everything was great about it, but you don't know what they want and you just have so little control. So as we say, like shopping around town with our briefcase full of wears like Willie Loman is just not an appealing thing. So, you know, John had met this, this Irish actor, a guy named Richie Stevens, and he was pitching a friend's story and you know, that story wasn't quite hooking John. And then Richie started telling him about his own life and he was a recovered alcoholic drug addict gangster.(36:29):Right. And he is like, oh, that's interesting me, I want you to meet Dave. So we all sat down together, I'm like, I just had a fascinating life, a fascinating story. Like that's a great story to tell. Right. And and it was John's idea too. He was like, rich, you did the 12 steps of, you know, recovery. And he goes, yeah. He goes, let's tell your story in 12 steps. And that lends itself to a very nice TV show. Mm-Hmm. . But we were like, do we really want to go pitch a TV show? And so we said, you know what if we could write this as a book, cuz it lends itself to a book really. Well, 12 chapters. The 12 steps. Right. And I always wanted to write a book from the time I was 12, you know but then we'd have an IP and Hollywood loves an ip, you know, they love it If it's a,Michael Jamin (37:12):You still had to pitch it as a book. I mean you still have to pitch cuz you had to pitch it as aDave Krinsky (37:15):Book. Yeah. It's not like that's an easy path either. Yeah. But look, we had been out here long enough, we knew, you know, Jake Steinfeld Body by Jake who had published several successful books. He goes, well let me introduce you to my book agent. She publishes a lot of nonfiction authors. We'd pitched to her, she said, okay, this is a good hook. I think I can sell it. She turned around and sold it to a publisher. So then, you know, then we wrote the book, which took a while, but it's like now we have a book, which is an ip, which we can set up and we have much more control over it. Yeah. And we're making very good headway and setting it up as a TV show now.Michael Jamin (37:48):Right. Cuz you're bringing, you're bringing more to the table, which is why I always say, what else can you bring to the table? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, yeah, and it's an interesting read. I Yeah. Read it. Wonderful. So yeah, I give give you guys a lot of credit, a lot of credit, a lot of hustle.Dave Krinsky (38:03):Well look, a lot of it comes from boredom. And, and in all honesty, there's certain things we can do because of our track record. So when I'm advising like younger writers, I'm like, well, this won't necessarily work for you. Right. But you really do. I mean, the business has become so consolidated. It's a, it's a weird, it's also a weird business where like almost the quality or success of the entertainment doesn't matter. I mean, Apple's trying to sell mm-hmm. , you know, iPhones, Amazon's trying to sell everything else in the world so it doesn't have the same sort of metric as it used to when you were pitching a show. So it, it, it's difficult. But you know, like I met this young writer and she wrote a script that I really liked a lot mm-hmm. and, you know, we tried to set it up around town and have a ton of luck.(38:44):And then we learned she has dual citizenship, I guess triple citizen from Belgium and from France mm-hmm. . And it's like, oh, an American writer who's got, you know, some talent who can go over to the EU and tap into the money over there with their subsidies because she has a, is a huge thing. So now we're making headway on that. Right. So there's a lot of different angles that anybody's starting out might have access to that they can do instead of really just waiting for an agent or a writer or a studio to notice them.Michael Jamin (39:14):Right, right. Stop begging, stop begging, start making, making things happen yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Well tell, well tell us tell me what the name of that, that book so they can find it on Amazon.Dave Krinsky (39:25):It's called The Gangster's Guide to Sobriety.Michael Jamin (39:27):Yeah. He's a charming fella.Dave Krinsky (39:29):That guy. Yeah. You know, he's a real Irishman with the Irish accent and like, if you read the book, I mean, he did some horrible things and he's always like shocked that people are nice to him cuz of the horrible things he's done. But he's also a very gentle, sweet guy. He was just an, he was an addict and, and he made a lot of bad decisions from there, butMichael Jamin (39:45):Right. Dave Krinsky (39:46):But yeah, he is a good guy. He'sMichael Jamin (39:47):A good story. Yeah. A lot of good stories. Dave Krinsky, I'd give you a hug ifDave Krinsky (39:52):You I wantMichael Jamin (39:53):One , if you weren't on Zoom. Thank you so much. Thank you. Is there anything, any other parting words that we can get from you or anything, any other wisdom? Is that, or we tap, tap you out?Dave Krinsky (40:03):I don't know about wisdom, but I know that you know, a lot of people are, are tuning into you and checking your stuff out. And I just remember at King of the Hill and we've worked together on a bunch of shows, like you were always the fastest guy in the room. I was always just so amazed and, and jokes never translate. And it was your joke, so you'll sound like an idiot. But I just still remember we're all sitting in the writer's room and someone comes in and says, oh, I was down in Century City and I saw that Bewitched movie with will Ferrell and a Nicole Kidman. Yeah. And they go, how was he goes, well, I didn't really get to see it all because there was a fire alarm in the fire department came, came in and you yell everybody out, there's a bomb on the screen.Michael Jamin (40:38):, I don't remember that at, I have no memory of that at all. . My other, myDave Krinsky (40:44):Other favorite memory of King of the Hill was, you remember sitting in that back chair mm-hmm. taking a hole.Michael Jamin (40:50):Yes. And I have, I found a picture of it that was, I'll explain for the, for the, for our viewers we had, right. So there was a while on King of the Hill when we were working like 20 hours a day , and I felt like a hostage. And I had this one big chair that had big wooden legs on it. And I took like a thumb tack and I started digging a hole like the Shawshank Redemption. Redemption. Like I was digging a hole out of the . And then, and it took, it took months to finally when I finally broke through, I put a picture of Rita Hayworth on it so you couldn't see him as digging . And this is ballsy for a new guy. Cause I was like, you know, I was destroying furniture and I was telling everyone that I was not happy to be there 20 hours a day.Dave Krinsky (41:33):. Well, the thing we all, we all kind of bought into this fantasy that when you broke through we'd be free. Right. And it was so depressing when you broke through and we were like,Michael Jamin (41:43):We're allDave Krinsky (41:43):Back to work.Michael Jamin (41:45):I, I remember Garland was particularly interested in it. She's like, well, you know, because she was like, what are you gonna get through? Oh, funny. That's so funny. I'm, I'm glad you reminded that cuz I forget everything. That's the va the advantage of working with people if they can remind me of these stories. I don't remember any of that. I don't remember that that be whichDave Krinsky (42:04): Yeah. No, it was very funny. But no, I this was a pleasure and I I love what you're doing and I think, you know, you're giving information to people that's kind of hard to get anywhere else. You can learn craft, you can learn certain things, but you have so much input that's useful on a day-to-day level for aspiring writers. So good on you.Michael Jamin (42:20):Thank you so much Dave Krinsky, thank you again. AndDave Krinsky (42:24):Pleasure to see youMichael Jamin (42:25):Everyone. So yeah stay tuned. We had more episodes coming up next week. Thanks. And yeah, we have what else we got? We got a free webinar once a month. Sign up for that on my website, michaeljamin.com and my free newsletter. All good stuff. Go to michaeljamin.com and you can find it. Alright everyone, thank you so much.Phil Hudson (42:44):This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's cycle. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at @PhilAHudson This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until max time, keep writing.

Money, Power & Respect are supposedly the keys to life -- plus the title of The LOX's polarizing debut album -- so Moulz & Mel are hoping they gain all three from their review. ------------- Intro (0:00) -- The Rating System, Explained (7:45 - 10:26) -- The Rap Rankings Game (38:21) -- RAB Express: Trippie Redd, Trip At Knight (1:48:50) -- This Week In Moulz & Mel (2:19:14) -- Money, Power & Respect Info (2:32:34) -- Track 1: "Yonkers Tale (Intro)" (2:58:56) -- Track 2: "Livin' The Life" (3:06:06) -- Track 3: "If You Think I'm Jiggy" (3:25:36) -- Track 4: "The Interview, Pt. 1 (Interlude)" (3:42:40) -- Track 5: "Money, Power & Respect" (3:45:55) -- Track 6: "Get This $" (3:59:49) -- Track 7: "Let's Start Rap Over" (4:20:39) -- Track 8: "Mad Rapper (Interlude)" (4:32:34) -- Track 9: "I Wanna Thank You" (4:36:06) -- Track 10: "Goin' Be Some Shit" (5:08:43) -- Track 11: "The Heist, Pt. 1" (5:19:10) -- Track 12: "Not To Be Fucked With" (5:26:19) -- Track 13: "The Set-Up (Interlude)" (5:30:02) -- Track 14: "Bitches From Eastwick" (5:34:02) -- Track 15: "Can't Stop, Won't Stop" (5:43:49) -- Track 16: "All For The Love" (6:13:52) -- Track 17: "So Right" (6:21:04) -- Track 18: "The Snitch (Interlude)" (6:30:54) -- Track 19: "Everybody Wanna Rat" (6:32:01) -- Track 20: "The Interview, Pt. 2 (Interlude)" (6:38:36) -- Track 21: "We'll Always Love Big Poppa" (6:39:34) -- Ranking Money, Power & Respect (6:43:42) -- Outro (6:50:32)

Tune in as Michael Jamin talks with his good friend, actor Rick Negron who plays King George in Hamilton. Discover what he has to say about being the first Latino King George, doing his first show in his home country of Puerto Rico alongside Lin-Manuel Miranda who was acting as Hamilton, and his overall Hamilton touring and acting career experience.Show NotesInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/rick_negron/?hl=enIMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0624508/?ref_=nmmi_mi_nmIBDB: https://www.ibdb.com/broadway-cast-staff/rick-negron-107348The Spokesman-Review: https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2022/apr/28/youll-be-back-in-playing-king-george-iii-in-hamilt/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutomated Transcript:Rick Negron (00:00:00):That's still the case nowadays for a lot of young dancers and, and musical theater types. They go to New York and they take dance classes and they take voice lessons, and they take acting classes, and they get that picture and resume ready, and they go to open calls. And if you're talented and you're lucky sometimes you, you get an equity show, a, a union show from an open call. It's tough. And you have to, you have to hit that pavement. And sometimes, you know, getting to know, being in the right place at the right time. I, I, I was mentioning to you before that I, I booked this H B O commercial and I met more a dancer on that show who said, Hey, you'd be right for the show. And one of the guys is leaving the show and they're having auditions at the theater, and you should go. And that's how I got my first Broadway show.Michael Jamin (00:00:50):You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.Michael Jamin (00:00:58):Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. If you are an aspiring theatrical actor, I got a present for you and we're gonna unwrap him right now. And his name is Rick Negron. And he's been my buddy for many years. He's at my wedding. We go back, Rick. Now Rick is most famous for probably, he's done a ton of stuff though, but he's probably most famous for playing the role of king George in the touring company of Hamilton, which he's been doing for four years. But he's done a ton of Broadway stuff. We're gonna talk about him. He's also done voices. I didn't know this, but he was also he does vo he did some voices in Red Dead Redemption as well as grand Theft Auto, which I wanna know all about that as well. But mostly I wanna talk about his incredible theatrical acting career. Rick, thank you so much. Thank you so much for . ForRick Negron (00:01:47):What? Michael Jamin? I'm in the room. I'm, I'm in the room where it happens, man.Michael Jamin (00:01:52):, this is the room. This, what people don't realize is that I recorded some of this and I bone, I didn't, I didn't record, so, yeah. And this is, this is part two of our interview. I had a record over cuz I wasn't recording. StuffRick Negron (00:02:03):Happens. And you know what, Michael, you, you and I can talk till the cows come home. This is not a problem.Michael Jamin (00:02:09):This Rick's great guy, and he's gonna tell us all about. I, I, I had, so there's so much I wanted to get outta you, but first of all, what I, we were talking about is, you've been doing Hamilton, you've been King George and Hamilton, the first Latino King George, I might say, which is a big deal. And so yeah, you've been touring the country from city to city, and I kind of really wanted to talk to you about like, what is your, what is your day like when you go up on stage, you know, what are you doing before, what you're doing all before that, before you got on stage, because it's a, you've been done. How many performances have you said you're done? This,Rick Negron (00:02:44):I'm over 900 easily. I'm close to like nine 50. I, I, I don't count 'em, but every time the, the company management has like, oh, this is our 900th performance, I just kind of go, well, I've only missed maybe about between vacations and days that I've been sick. Maybe I've missed 30 at the most over a four year period. , that's, I've, I've done a lot of performancesMichael Jamin (00:03:11):And, and we were talking about this and your character, like I, I've, I hate to make you repeat it, but how do you get, like, how do you get psyched up before each show when you do that many shows? How are you, what's your process before you, you run on stage?Rick Negron (00:03:27):Well, this, this character is a real gift in the sense that it's beautifully written. Mm-Hmm. , it's just three songs. honestly, Uhhuh . I'm on stage for a little over 10 minutes, but it's so well written that if I just hook into the words of, of the songs, I got 'em. Uhhuh you. I, I, I can, I can hook my myself into that myself, into that character very easily, just with the words. But the other gift is that I have time to get ready. So when every, when the show, when we are at places and the show starts, that's when I get my wig on. Mm-Hmm. I still have 15 minutes to do some vocal warmups and get dressed. And are youMichael Jamin (00:04:12):To being like tea with lemon? What are you sit, what are you doing that day?Rick Negron (00:04:16):Nah, nah. I, I mean, I'm not a huge tea guy unless, unless I'm having some vocal distress. And then I do like a nice warm tea with honey and lemon if I'm, if, if my voice is a little wonky or my throat's a little sore. But the main thing for me for vocal capacity is sleep. If I get less than seven hours, my voice suffers. If I eat a lot of cheese and dairy, that's gonna be a lot of gunk on the vocal courts.Michael Jamin (00:04:45):But if you're nervous the nightRick Negron (00:04:46):BeforeMichael Jamin (00:04:47):Hmm. But if you're nervous, if you have, if you get stage nerves and you can't sleep the night before , right? I mean, no. Are you, are you beyond that?Rick Negron (00:04:55):Yeah, I'm beyond that. I mean, I've been in the business long enough that, that I, I get nervous. Uhhuh and God knows, I was nervous the first time I did the show in front of an audience in Puerto Rico of all places. Right. That's where we opened, right. With Lynn Manuel Miranda back in the role of Hamilton after being a away from it for a few years. That was a dream job because I'm from Puerto Rico and I literally went back homeMichael Jamin (00:05:23):To a heroRick Negron (00:05:23):Welcome star and one of the biggest shows on Broadway with Lynn Manuel Miranda and me playing the king. Yeah. I was born like four blocks away from the theater that we were at. It was just crazy sauce. So yes, I was incredibly nervous opening night. And there was my wife, my sister-in-law, in the audience you know, yes. Really nervous. But did I lose sleep the night before? No. I slept like a baby. No, really? My nerves don't really hit me until I start putting on that costumeMichael Jamin (00:05:51):. Really? Yeah. I see. I would imagine to me, I mean, I know it's a big deal to be star of a movie, but to me this to me seems like a bigger deal. What you, what you're doing in terms of, it seems like a you are lead in this giant freaking play that, I mean, one of the biggest plays, you know, of our, of our time on. Seriously. Yeah. Yeah. And you are these, you play this character who the minute he walks on stage, the place goes nuts cuz you hit a home run and then you walk out, you're the home run guy. Exactly. Bye. Hello. No. ExpectRick Negron (00:06:21):Bye. And by the way, no expectation. I'd literally walk on stage and the place goes bananas. And I haven't saidMichael Jamin (00:06:26):A word. Right. They love you before. You haven't even said anything. I mean, what a huge, I don't know. I just think this is like, I don't know, if I were an aspiring actors, that would be the part. I don't see how you, I don't know how, where you go from here, Rick Rick Negron (00:06:41):. It's all downhillMichael Jamin (00:06:43):.Rick Negron (00:06:45):No, I guess listen, it, the beauty of it is also that I've had this really long career mm-hmm. and, you know, I started out as a chorus boy on Broadway and then worked myself into understudy and then did some roles. And then finally at, at a ripe old age. I've gotten this great job and I've really, I'm at the point in my life where I'm really enjoying it. Yeah. I'm enjoying the process. I'm enjoying the traveling cuz I, I, I've toured some, but I haven't toured a lot. And this tour has been to some really great cities all on the west coast up and down the west coast. Yeah, the mountain west. In the winter I got some snowboarding in, in Salt Lake City, Denver. I,Michael Jamin (00:07:33):Where are you supposed to do that with you if you break your leg?Rick Negron (00:07:36):Yeah, I'm not supposed to do that. Can we delete that from the podcast? ? We can take that out. . It's in the past. I don't care. Okay. I, I stayed on the bunny slopes. I Right. I really took it easy. But then we spent summer in Canada, which was amazing. I was up in Calgary in the summer and went up to band for the first time in my life. And my wife, Leslie, who you know well, came up to visit and we stayed on Emerald Lake and I just spent two months in Hawaii. So this tour has just been amazing. Well, it started out in Puerto Rico, as I said, right. For a month with Manuel Miranda. And then we went to San Francisco and sat for a, a year in San Francisco. So I got to live in San Francisco Right. For a year and experienced that incredible city until the pandemic. And then we shut down for a year and four months before we started up again.Michael Jamin (00:08:27):And then, and then So how did you start? We, how did you start? Like, you know, take me back. I know you, I know you were, take me back to when you were a child. Did you, I mean, this is, did you dream of being a Broadway star like this? Like, what happened? Who, who dreams of that? Like who, how, I mean, you all dream of that, but who achieves it, I guess?Rick Negron (00:08:46):Well, a lot of people do. A lot of people do. And, and, and not everybody has the path that I had, but some of us get bitten by the bug early on. And I got bitten by the bug when I was 10. Right. And my mom was the drama teacher at school. And I guess I blame her for everything. But this mustMichael Jamin (00:09:06):Be the be like, you must be the, the crowning achievement in her, in her in her life.Rick Negron (00:09:12):Yeah. She's, but I did, she's pretty proud. And I have ano another sister who also went in into theater and and so the whole family kind of w it was the family thing we all sang. Right. we all did mu mu musicals in the local community theater and children's theater. So it was a family thing for us growing up. But I'm the one that sort of got bitten hard. And then I got involved, like at 14 mm-hmm. a choreographer. I was doing a, a mu a children's theater show, said, Hey, you've got some talent as a dancer. Come take, I'll give you a scholarship at my little dance school. And so after school at 14, I would go take ballet, jazz, tap and acrobatics after school with Susan Cable, who luckily was a great dance teacher. She had been a, a chorus person on Broadway.(00:10:05):Wow. And, and, and that's what, how I started in my dance career. And then it kind of took off. And by the time I got to college I thought I was gonna be a, a concert dancer. I was in college, I was sort of groomed to, to, to possibly go into the Paul Taylor Dance company. And I actually was not on scholarship. I was a intern with a Paul Taylor dance company for a while until I realized I'm making no money. I'm working super hard and I've always wanted to be on Broadway. That was my realMichael Jamin (00:10:42):Dream. So those people don't interchange those concert dancers. Don't, they don't.Rick Negron (00:10:46):Some do it. Usually the concert dancers, if they can sing.Michael Jamin (00:10:52):Right.Rick Negron (00:10:54):Will, will sort of move into the musical theater world and sometimes move back into the concert dance world. One of the great concert dancers of all time who I met when he was super young, Desmond Richardson mm-hmm. he was a lead dancer with the Alban AI company for many, many, many years. I mean a God in the dance world. And now he owns his own owns, he runs his own dance company, complexions. And he's a great choreographer. And he was in the bad video with me back in the day with Michael Jackson. Right.Michael Jamin (00:11:30):So Rick was in the, I should say for the, I don't wanna gloss over this. Rick. Rick was in the a dance for, in the Michael Jackson's bad video directed by Martin Scorsese. Yeah. Was Quincy Jones produced?Rick Negron (00:11:41):Yeah, 1985. I was, I was a chorus dancer at the time. I was in I was doing my second Broadway show. The mystery of Evan, Dr. My dance captain was Rob Marshall. went on to direct Chicago, the movie and many other movies since then. And, and while I was doing the show, there was this audition for the bad video and yeah, it was, it was really surreal. I took vacation from, from the Broadway show to do the video and, and, and got to meet Michael who was really sort of like, it was two people in that body. I mean, he was super shy and, and sort of very reserved, but the minute the cameras went on it, he was, he became somebody else. Right. And he was a perfectionist. 25 takes sometimes e every setup. And Scorsese was famous for just burning through film. Easy 20 Takes the video was supposed to shoot for two weeks, and I think it went for four. And this is a music video. It was the first SAG music video at the time, by the way.Michael Jamin (00:12:44):Really?Rick Negron (00:12:45):Anyway, Desmond Richardson was a young dancer at the time. There were a lot of young New York dancers in, in that show. And he famously went into the Avid Ailey company, but then he also worked on Fosse the Musical. And he also worked on Chicago. The, the movie with me. I, I got to work on Chicago, the movie cuz I had this great relationship with Rob Marshall and, and I was invited to audition. I didn't get, the dancers don't usually just get the job. You still have to come in and audition. Right. But even though, you know, the people involved it just is the way it is. And, and there was, and, and Desmond and, and I, we bump into each other all the time and we have so many memories. You know, going back 20, what is that, 85? 1985 was the bad video.(00:13:35):And I, I still bump into 'em. I I've been into 'em at the opening of the new USC school a few years ago. The School of Dance there at usc, the Kaufman School of Dance, I think it's called. But anyway yeah, people go in in from the dance world into musical theater and they go back and forth. Not a lot. Actually. We have one member of our, our of our of our Hamilton company, Andrew who was a modern dancer in the dance world and then moved into musical theater. And,Michael Jamin (00:14:04):But you were telling me how, and this is kind of important cause people are gonna be like, well, how do I break in? And you were, I mean, what, as you were explaining, it's like, it's basically you had this, you were just, you were in the circle, you were just there, and then things le one thing leads to enough simply because you put yourself there. Right. So how did you, what was your first break? How did you get that? I mean,Rick Negron (00:14:24):Every, everybody, everybody has a, a different story about first breaks. And when I was starting out, it was really different. Things have changed, you know, in all these years. Now, if you go to the right school, you can get into the right you know casting director workshop. And they see, oh, really? You, and, and maybe you get an agent out of that workshop and, and you know, it's, it, when I started out it, that wasn't the case when I started out. You go to New York, you start taking dance class at all the big dance studios where all the other Broadway dancers are taking dance class mm-hmm. . And then you pick up Backstage. Mm-Hmm. newspaper, and you go to the open equity calls for every show. I remember my first open equity call was for cats, the national tour, right after Cats had opened on Broadway.(00:15:14):And I, I had four callbacks. I got really close to booking cats, but I didn't. And and I just kept going to open calls. And that's still the case nowadays for a lot of young dancers and, and musical theater types. They go to New York and they take dance classes and they take voice lessons and they take acting classes and they get that picture and resume ready and they go to open calls. And if you're talented and you're lucky sometimes you, you get an equity show, a a union show from an open call. It's tough. And you have to, you have to hit that pavement. And sometimes, you know, getting to know, being in the right place at the right time. I, I, I was mentioning to you before that I, I booked this H B O commercial and I met one, a dancer on that show who said, Hey, you'd be right for the show. And one of the guys is leaving the show and they're having auditions at the theater and you should go. And that's how I got my first Broadway show by somebody suggesting that I go audition and I showed up at the theater and auditioned. And that night I got the job. And that's how I got my first Broadway show. The moreMichael Jamin (00:16:24):People, you know, the more you work, the more you hear andRick Negron (00:16:27):The more you Exactly. Yeah. You're in the mix. You have to in be in the mix and you have to network. And nowadays that involves, as you know social media and getting, getting followers and, and and, and putting out videos of yourself, singing and putting out videos of yourself, dancing and putting out videos of yourself, acting. I mean there's all that stuff that's going on now that wasn't going on when I started. But is, is is the new reality of how do you get into the business really. Okay. And, and when young, when young people ask me how, you know, how do I get started? And I say, well, in your hometown, get involved. Do the, do the school musicals, but get involved with the community theater. In any way you can. If, if you want to be an actor, but you know, there isn't a role for you do the work on the sets.(00:17:19):I worked on sets in community theater. Mm-Hmm. , I helped my mom. She, she was makeup artist too. And so I helped with makeup and I, I did lights. I, you know, I did all kinds of stuff just to be in the room. Right. Just to see other people work, to, to network, to meet people. And and I'm glad I did because I kind of know my way around all the different elements of theater. You know, I know what Alico is. I know, you know what all the different microphones are that they use in theater. And I, I always, I always befriend the crew. I think , as an actor, we can tend to be insular andMichael Jamin (00:17:57):Oh reallyRick Negron (00:17:58):Hang out with just the actors. I hang out with the crew. The crew knows what's up. Uhhuh , the crew knows where the good, the good bars are in town. They, you know, the crew is, and, and they're the ones that watch your back. When you're on the road.Michael Jamin (00:18:13):Now you were explaining to me the, and I didn't know the difference between, cuz you as the king, king, king George, you have two understudies, but there's also swing actors. Explain to me how that all works.Rick Negron (00:18:24):So in the show, you usually, you have the ensemble, which is what we used to call the chorus. Yeah. And then you have the leads. And in the ensemble you usually have two male swings and two female swings. So those individuals are not in the show nightly, but they literally understudy all the f the, the females understudy, all the females and the males understudy. All the males. And that's usually a case. They have two male and two female. In Hamilton, we have four female swings and four male swings. I think I'm right. Three or four. We have a lot. And that's because Hamilton is such a, a beast of a show. It's so hard. Physically. People get injured, people get tired.Michael Jamin (00:19:06):It's like being a professional athlete. It's no different.Rick Negron (00:19:08):Yeah. Yeah. And you're doing it eight times a week. And after a year it's repetitive motion for a lot of dancers. Oh. So I always tell those dancers, don't just do the show. Go, go and do yoga. Go do a dance class cuz you have to work your muscles a different way. Otherwise you're gonna get repetitive motion injuries. Wow. You know, like the same person that that screws on the, you know, back in the day when they screwed down the, the toothpaste cap every day that those muscles every day, all day long are gonna get messed up.Michael Jamin (00:19:37):But do they have like a trainer or doctor on set at all times?Rick Negron (00:19:40):We have a personal train PT, physical therapist right on tour with us. Most heavy dance shows will have that on tour. Because they need, they need the upkeep. The dancers, especially in this show work so hard. They, they need somebody to help them recover from injury. And, and just keep their bodies tuned up.Michael Jamin (00:20:04):And so let's say you get, you're in Hamilton, let's say you're, you're a swing or whatever, but, and then you're on tour, they what, give you a per diem? Or do they put you up in housing? How, like what is the, what is that really like to be?Rick Negron (00:20:15):So let me I'm, I'm gonna finish the whole understudy thing because Oh yeah. You have the swings and then you have the understudies, which are people in the chorus who understudy the leads. But then you also have standbys. And the standbys aren't in the show. Right. But they're backstage and they understudy anywhere between 2, 3, 4, 4 different characters. And so at the drop of the hat, they can say, Hey, you're on tonight for Burr, or you're on tonight for Hamilton. It, it can happen five minutes before the show. You can know way in advance cuz you know that character's going on vacation and stage management has told you, oh, you're gonna do the first five of, of, of the, of the vacation or the first four and somebody else is gonna do the other four. So you may know ahead of time and you can ask or tell your friends and family to come see you do that role. Right. Cause you know, ahead of time. But many times you, you find out last minute that somebody is sick or, or doesn't fe or hurt their knee or whatever. Or even in the middle of the show, sometimes somebody will twist an ankle and boom, we have a new bur in act two. It, it's, it's happened not a lot, but it's happened often enough that the understudies come in, warmed up and ready to go.Michael Jamin (00:21:26):But you explained to me even before every performance, even though you've done the same freaking songs for 900 times, you still mentally prepare yourself. You go through, you rehearse each, each song that you go through. So you walk yourself through it. But I can't even imagine if, like, if you, how do you prepare yourself for four different roles possibly. You know, like how do you do that? It's like you, it'sRick Negron (00:21:49):Crazy. Yeah. They, they, I know some of them will go over like difficult passages in the show because there's, there's moments in the show, like for Lafayette he's got in guns and ships. He's got some, some rap that are so fast. Yeah. That I, I know the understudies will go over those, what, what we called the, the, the moments when you can trip up. You go over those moments before you go on, but the rest of you can't go through the entire show. Right. Just pick and choose those moments where you can like go backstage and just go over your words and make sure they're, they're, you know, under your belt. I go over my words because I sing the same tune three times, but with different lyrics. Right. And the, and the trap is to sing the wrong lyric in the wrong song, which I had done. And it's, there's nothing more embarrassing and gut wrenching than to sing the wrong lyric in the wrong song. And you just have to find your way back. And it, they call it walking into the white room. And because literally what does that will happen and your mind will, your mind will explode, your armpits will explode with sweat. Your eyeballs will get this big, your throat will dry. It is flight or flight or flight moment.Michael Jamin (00:23:07):Yeah. AndRick Negron (00:23:08):It's so hard to, to like try to grasp the right lyric. And, and you're in, you're literally in a white room. Yeah. And you're going, oh shit. How, how do I get back?Michael Jamin (00:23:20):Right.Rick Negron (00:23:21):And for me it's a little easier cuz my song is nice and slow, but can you imagine being Hamilton and you're rapping a mile a minute and you go into the white roomMichael Jamin (00:23:29):And do you guys talk about that? OhRick Negron (00:23:32):Yeah. Yeah. Famously on Broadway, there, there, there was a something called Burst Corner. Uhhuh which was, I, I forget who started it, but I think , they, they told 'em not to do it anymore. It was something where they post on Instagram or Facebook. Oh. so-and-so, you know, said this instead of what they should have said, you know, basically coming out and, and owning your faux PAs during a live show. Right. I remember when I did Manda La Mancha with Robert Gole on tour. He used to make up lyrics sometimes. And we, and one of the guys in the show started jotting them down. And at the end of the tour, they basically roasted him at a, at the closing night party with all the lyrics that he made up throughout, throughout the entire thing. And he was not amused.Michael Jamin (00:24:20):He was not amused. I was gonna say, IRick Negron (00:24:23):Was not amused with that one. Okay. But my favorite faux pod of his was we were in Nashville and he started singing Impossible Dream. And he's sang to dream the Impossible Dream to fight the unat of a fo to carry Moonbeams home in a jar.Michael Jamin (00:24:41):And there was like, what?Rick Negron (00:24:44):That's a big Crosby song. Oh, funny. Carry Moon Beams Home in a Jar. It's an old Bing Cosby song. And he just pulled that lyric outta nowhere and inserted it into the impossible dream. And everybody backstage just went,Michael Jamin (00:24:59):What do he say? Oh my God. That's hilarious.Rick Negron (00:25:03):But you know, I I'm, I'm, I might be roasting Robert Gole at the moment, but everybody's had those moments. Yeah. Especially in Hamilton, it happens cuz the, the words are coming fast and furious and boy, if you miss that train or you screw up, oh, it's hard to get back on.Michael Jamin (00:25:18):And I imagine ifRick Negron (00:25:20):You do, everybody does. Everybody, if youMichael Jamin (00:25:21):Do it one too many times, are you looking at unemployment?Rick Negron (00:25:24):Mm-Hmm. ? No. Really? No. Yeah. I mean, nobody does it one too many times. Uhhuh, . I mean, some understudies have more bumps in the road than others. Uhhuh. . But you, you, you know, we give them a lot of grace because being an understudy is really hard. Yeah. And so when somebody's honest and understudy you, everybody has their, their, their side view mm-hmm. just because they, they might be in the wrong spot in a certain moment or cross a little differently than the usual guy. So you just have to have some grace. Don't get upset if they're in the wrong spot. You know, just maybe nudge them a little bit or pull them or, or, or just watch out for them and don't bump into them because, you know, somebody is on. I, because I've understudied so many in so many shows, I have a lot of empathy for, for understudies and swings and, but I, I, I don't, in my experience, and I've been in a ton of shows, I haven't been around somebody who's messed up so much that they've got gotten fired. Usually when somebody's not up for the task creatives know during rehearsals that they're not cutting it. Uhhuh . And then so somebody will get, will get let go. Right. the only other time I, I remember somebody lost their voice and, and took time off and came back and lost their voice again. And it was just a situation where they couldn't do the job. Their voice just, wow. Their voice just couldn't ha hack it. And so, you know, those are tough and difficult moments. They don't happen often, but it happens.Michael Jamin (00:27:09):Wow. Yeah. And now you were also telling me, which I thought was fascinating, is that your character, because he's the king, you were talking, you know, how, how your character has evolved, you playing the same exact part has evolved over, over all these years of you playing it.Rick Negron (00:27:24):Yeah. It's, it's been a gift. I'm, I'm, you know, I've realized early on that theater really is my thing. Even though I did some TV and film when I moved to la I, I didn't, I didn't really love the work. Right. It sort of felt a little bit empty just in the sense that, you know, you sit in a trailer for hours and hours and then you get a couple of rehearsals and you shoot and you're done. And that's it. You know, and it's on, it's out there for posterity and you walk away from the, from the gig going, oh, I could have done this, I could have done that. But in theater, you get to redeem yourself every night. You know, if you screwed up the night before, you, you make it better the next night. And I love that about theater.(00:28:07):And and so for, for me I just get better over time and people say, oh, but don't you get tired eight times a week a year. I don't. I I like to, I like to tell people that it's, it's almost like being a potter. You have the same, you know, square block of clay and you're making that same pot. But every time you're doing something a little bit different and you're learning from the, the, the, yesterday when you made that pot, today you're making the same pot, but you learn something new, you discovered something new, making this pot, it's still the same pot, but you're, you may be doing a little filigree or a little curve here, or a little something different. So every night you get to shape this pot a little bit differently. And that's, for me, that's the, the beauty of it.(00:28:59):That's the challenge. I remember early on with, with this, with this character, I was in rehearsals and the the associate director Patrick Vassell said, you know, Rick, this is interesting. Most guys come in with a really large, over the top take on the king. Mm-Hmm. , you're coming in with a very spare low-key take on it. I mean, we're gonna build you up, which is usually not the case with this character. And build, build him up. Not make him bigger, but just give him more depth. Okay. And that was the rehearsal process for me. And then when I started working with Thomas Kale the, the director of Hamilton right before we opened in Puerto Rico, he said, the trick to this guy is to make him, make him as simple and as small as possible because the king can, with one finger kill a whole community. Right. Know, he just has to say, those people are gone and they're gone. So he doesn't have to do much. He has all this power. So that, that was like the best bit of information for me. And so the challenge is over time is to do less.Michael Jamin (00:30:14):Right. AndRick Negron (00:30:14):Still with all the homework that you've done and the character work that you've done, but do less. And I, and I was telling you this before, that you walk out on stage Yeah. And the audience goes crazy. And, you know, there's all this expectation and sometimes you get suckered in by this adoring audience to do more. Right. But you have to fight that feeling and do less. And that's,Michael Jamin (00:30:38):It sounds like though you got conflicting notes though. No. They directed the eight. Well,Rick Negron (00:30:43):I think because in rehearsal I was still sort of finding my way with him. Uhhuh . And instead of making this broad fabish character, which is how somebody who starts with King George and thinks, oh, I'm just gonna do this and make him big and fabish. Right. that's sort of a two-dimensional view of, of the king. And I came in with a lot of research about the guy and thinking, I, I, I don't wanna make him this two-dimensional caricature. Right. I really wanna make him a, a guy who is number one dangerousMichael Jamin (00:31:21):Uhhuh ,Rick Negron (00:31:21):Who has a lot of power and who, who is feeling jilted, but won't allow you, you can't break up with me. Right. I'm breaking up with you. You know, that kind, that kind of dynamic in this, in the first song specifically. And so I came in with that and he said, that's great. Now we're gonna just work and put more layers on him, but not necessarily make him bigger, but just give him more layers.Michael Jamin (00:31:52):Let me ask you the, because when you're in, when you say, you know, you're the analogy of making a pot, are you going into the performance thinking, I wanna try this today? Or are you so into character you forget and, and somehow it it organically arises?Rick Negron (00:32:10):I try to stay in, in the more organic realm.Michael Jamin (00:32:13):Uhhuh, ,Rick Negron (00:32:14):Because I think that's where the really good stuff is. The stuff that just pops out of you.Michael Jamin (00:32:20):But you can't make that happen. That's the problem. Yeah.Rick Negron (00:32:23):If, if, if I plan somethingMichael Jamin (00:32:26):Mm-Hmm.Rick Negron (00:32:26):, I, I feel like it, it feels fabricated a little bit. Right. And so I, I try not to, but sometimes I'll get a note from, we have a resident director that travels with us, and also sometimes the director or the associate director will show up to whatever city we're in and will watch the show and give us notes and say, you know, in this moment, maybe try this or try that. And so I really pay attention to those notes and I try to implement them, but I try not to I try not to quote unquote fabricate them or, or, or think too much on it. I try to, maybe, maybe the best thing that I can say is I'll tr I'll try on my own four or five different ways to achieve that note. Mm-Hmm. . Okay. I can, I can, I can make it more dangerous in this section if I lean into this word or if I, you know, take a pause or whatever it is. I'll come up with four or five different ways to get the note across and then let whatever which one pops out pops out when it, when I do the performance. So I give myself some choices. So I don't, so I don't get, I don't pigeonhole myself into a specific choice, which then feels fabricated and fake.Michael Jamin (00:33:51):Right. But do you ever get into the part and then n notice, oh, I, I just slipped out of it. I, I'm, I'm, I'm observing myself now. I'm not in the partRick Negron (00:34:00):Happens all the time.Michael Jamin (00:34:02):And what do you do? How do you get back inRick Negron (00:34:04):The words the text will save you for every writer out there. Thank you. Because the text will save you. You have to get back into, into what it is you're saying. When, whenMichael Jamin (00:34:16):You, but the words are in your head that you don't, you're not reading something, they're in your head.Rick Negron (00:34:19):You're in your head, but in your head. I've been doing this so long that I can be in the middle of my performance and going, Hmm. That wasn't good. Right. Like, I'll be criticizing myself while I'm doing it,Michael Jamin (00:34:31):But that's not good. Now you're out of character.Rick Negron (00:34:33):Now I'm out of character. Now I'm in my head. Right. And the first thing that I'll do is I'll, I'll bite something. I'll bite a word or I'll, I'll make a gesture. Or basically I'll snapped my myself out of that.Michael Jamin (00:34:47):Do it.Rick Negron (00:34:48):I guess. I didn't silence my phone.Michael Jamin (00:34:51):That's okay. So,Rick Negron (00:34:52):Interesting enough. That's, that's the resident director of Hamilton just texted me.Michael Jamin (00:34:57):. He can wait. It's not important.Rick Negron (00:34:59):No. She, she, luckily this is she. Yes. Better. Sherry Barber. Amazing director.Michael Jamin (00:35:05):So we that's my next question though. I wanna talk about that. But, so, all right. So you snap so you, you, you get back into it with a physical, something physical, a gesture or something.Rick Negron (00:35:14):Physical or, or, or, or vocal. Yeah. Or some different intention. Yeah. Just mix it up. Right. Mix it up. Yeah. Do something different that, that's gonna get you outta your head.Michael Jamin (00:35:27):Right. I mean, I mean, I would think that we, that way my fear is going up, going up, forgetting, oh, what, what's my line? Line? Oh,Rick Negron (00:35:34):It is, that's every actor's fear. And, and, and if anything keeps me nervous, it's that, it's the fear of, of messing up. But the, and people say, oh, how do you get over being nervous? And I always say, you, how, how do you get to Carnegie Hall? Yeah. Practice, practice, practice. Confidence comes from being, I can sing that song with another song, playing over a loud speaker. That's how well I know that song.Michael Jamin (00:36:04):Really. With another song playing. There'sRick Negron (00:36:05):Another song playing over the loud speaker. And I can sing my song while that song is playing. That's how much in the bones in my cell that song is. See, I just have to, I, I rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse.Michael Jamin (00:36:18):Do you think it's possible to over rehearse?Rick Negron (00:36:21):Yeah.Michael Jamin (00:36:22):Uhhuh. . Yeah.Rick Negron (00:36:24):But I mean, for me, you know, every actor's different. For me, my comfort, what gives me my comfort zone is, and, and gives me confidence, is feeling like I, I know this inside out, left, right. I, I know ev Yeah, I know this. I got this Uhhuh . That's how I getMichael Jamin (00:36:46):There. But, but you don't feel that way in opening night cuz you haven't done it 900Rick Negron (00:36:49):Times. No, no, no. You haven't done it 900 times. So you just, you you, I go back to my yoga and I, I I do some deep breathing mm-hmm. and I try to focus on the intentions of the character. What is he trying to do?Michael Jamin (00:37:05):Do you, do you sometimes kick yourself? Like, do you feel like, oh, I wasn't in the Tonight Show. I was, I tried. I wasn't in it. I wasn't in it. OhRick Negron (00:37:14):Yeah. I walked out, I walk off stage sometimes and go, Ooh, that was terrible. Or whatev, you know, I'm, I'm my worst critic. Right. And sometimes I walk away and go, oh, that was good.Michael Jamin (00:37:26):Right. Because you're justRick Negron (00:37:27):Lost. I don't pat myself on the back as often as I should. Uhhuh , I'm usually more critical of myself. And, you know, and now I try, I try to not beat myself up as much as I used to. I try to be a little kinder to myself, but yeah, I totally walk away sometimes going, oh, that was, that was not your best.Michael Jamin (00:37:46): . And, and so these, these directors, like, what do they, what's their job? Because they didn't direct the show. The show has been choreographed. It's been directed. Now they're just jo they're just there every night to make sure it doesn't go off the rails.Rick Negron (00:37:59):Yeah. PrettyMichael Jamin (00:38:00):Much tune things.Rick Negron (00:38:01):Yeah. And the really good ones, like, like sh like our our resident director Sherry they're there to keep it fresh. And so she's constantly feeding you ideas. Hey, what, what if we do this? What if we do that? How about, how about, you know, and, and that's, she, she's great at bringing new ideas to something that we've been doing for four years,Michael Jamin (00:38:27):But I'm not sure how much I would wanna hear that if I were you. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, oh, I love it. This is what I You love that.Rick Negron (00:38:34):I love it. I love trying new stuff. I love messing about with that pot that I'm creating. Oh, what about, why, why don't you do a lip on, on, on the top? Oh, yeah, yeah. Do it. We'll curl out the lip on the top. I've never done that before. Right. Why don't we do that? You know, I did something a few months ago at the end of the song, the song I famously go, famously I should say the, the king famous famously says, and no, don't change the subject. And he points at somebody in the audience and he gets, he, it's a rare moment where he gets upset. Uhhuh . And that's, and, and if you've seen the Disney Plus, Jonathan Gruff famously just spits all over the place. It just is, it's, it's an explosion of saliva. And it's, it's a brilliant moment. I think. I think his take on the king is, is wonderful and he sings it so well. And and I usually point, they want you to usually point in sort of the same area of the, you can point anywhere, but they, they usually take point over here. And I always point over there, and one night, man, this is maybe about four or five months ago, one night at the end of the song, I went, I went,Michael Jamin (00:39:45):I'm watching youRick Negron (00:39:46):Uhhuh . Like, I pointed to my eyes and I pointed to that person who I had pointed to earlier in the song. And no, don't change the subject as if that's my one nemesis in the room. And I'm just saying, I'm watching you . And it got such a reaction, right. That I kept it, it's been my new little bit until I, until I decide I don't want to, or until, you know, the associate director walks in and goes, you know what? I don't like that thing that you do at the end, cut it. And I'm like, okay, it's gone. Right. Well, think of something else. You know, unless there, there's always, there's always something right. That I can think of. And that's, that's the fun part that I can always improve it, I can always make it better. I can always have fun with it.Michael Jamin (00:40:29):Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You could unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Michael Jamin (00:40:53):I'm surprised you, I mean, I, I would wa I'm curious like, but you allowing yourself to watch, you know, Jonathan Grots version as opposed, you know, is that, are you, do you, you know, what's that like, you know, cause character yoursRick Negron (00:41:08):Now. Yeah. I saw him do it originally on Broadway when I saw the show in previews. And then of course I saw him do the Disney Plus version. And then when we were in rehearsals in 2018 for our company, we were the third national tour to go out when we were in rehearsals, they said, oh, you you know, you can go stand back in the, at the back of the house at the Richard Rogers and watch the Broadway company. And at that point, the king was Ian I'm forgetting Ian's last name, but he's, I think he's still the king right now. He's been there for a long time. He's brilliant. Uhhuh as the king. And I watched him play the King while I'm in rehearsals for the King. Right. And for me, I wish I could see all the kings really? Because really they all do something different. And, and you, and, and the stuff that's really good. You wanna steal it, man. You wanna, but can you, I mean, love that,Michael Jamin (00:42:00):But can youRick Negron (00:42:00):Take it from the best baby steal from theMichael Jamin (00:42:02):Best stuff from the best.Rick Negron (00:42:04):Interesting. Yes. I mean, you gotta make it your own. You can't do the exact same thing. Right. But, but it, for me, it feeds me as an actor. I'm like, oh, what a cool idea. I should, I can do a version of that or Right. Or so. Oh, that makes me think of something else. You know, I, I I, yeah. I I love it. DoMichael Jamin (00:42:20):You get together and talk with the other kings at all? Yeah.Rick Negron (00:42:23):I've met the king that's on on Zoom, actually. I haven't met him in person, but the guy Peter Matthews who, who does the Angelica tour and he's been doing it for a while. Most of the Kings. It's a, it's a nice gig. So yeah, you stick around right. As long as you, you know, want to, or as long as they'll have you. Right. And Hamilton's been really great about, you know, letting us stay. But Peter Peter's really a funny guy and I haven't gotten to see his king because obviously I'm doing it at another part of the country while he's doing it. But I would love to see him play the King. Really. yeah. And Rory O'Malley, who played it here in la, he did the first national, he I think Tony Winter for book of Mormon. Fantastic guy. I met him in San Francisco when he came to see our company. I'd love to see his cane cuz he's a great singer and, you know, everybody's got their, their their take on him. And I, I find it fascinating to see what somebody does with, with this character.Michael Jamin (00:43:25):Right. Cuz there's so much, there's so much. Yeah. That's so much how much constantly reinvented fun,Rick Negron (00:43:29):Fun role and,Michael Jamin (00:43:30):But by still, but you still gotta remain true to what the words are and what the intention of the words. But it still can be interpreted while still being true to thoseRick Negron (00:43:38):Words. Which, which is the beauty of, of, of, of Hamilton and, and I give a lot of credit to the creative team, is that yes, you have to sing the words and sing the melody, but you get a lot of creative license to, to make it your own Uhhuh . And so if you see our company of Hamilton and then you see the Broadway company of Hamilton, it's almost like two different shows. Right. It's the same show. But because you have different actors in those roles, it's pretty remarkable the difference in the companies.Michael Jamin (00:44:10):And tell me a little bit more about some of the other Broadway and traveling, because you've had such a resume, man, such a resume.Rick Negron (00:44:17):. Well, you know, I, I started back in the eighties as a, as a Chorus Boy and, and doing some really cool shows. Man La Mancha, the Goodbye Girl, theMichael Jamin (00:44:27):GoodbyeRick Negron (00:44:27):Girl leader of the Pack. I, I did, I did In The Heights on Broadway Right. For a couple of years. That's when I, I actually did a workshop of In the Heights in 2005 with Li Manuel Miranda and the whole gang, and I got to meet them back then. So they've been good loyal friends since then. Yeah. And, and have kept me employed for many years. I hand, you know, hats off to them . Oh, I do have hair by the way, but it was kinda messy. So I put on my, my hat. YouMichael Jamin (00:44:58):Could have worn your wig, your powdered wigRick Negron (00:45:01):. Oh yeah. IMichael Jamin (00:45:02):Used to wear, Hey, I'm always in characterRick Negron (00:45:04):. Yeah, A actually I have I'm, I have a few weeks off right now, which is why I'm home in la Right. Because we just did Hawaii and, and the show had to pack up and, and be put on the ship to come back to the us So they shipped, the show changed and that's how we, how it got to Puerto Rico too, which is why it makes it kind of difficult to send those shows to the, the Islandss because they have to ship it.Michael Jamin (00:45:29):But even still, how long does it take to set up for them to build, you know, build the set?Rick Negron (00:45:36):Well the shipping of it took a, takes about two weeks.Michael Jamin (00:45:40):All right. But once you're,Rick Negron (00:45:41):But then once it all gets there, our crew can, can put the set up in day and a half.Michael Jamin (00:45:47):Wow. Okay.Rick Negron (00:45:48):It's, it's like, it's all been carefully crafted. It's like Lincoln Logs, everything fits together, butMichael Jamin (00:45:54):Stages are different sizes. That's what I don't understand.Rick Negron (00:45:57):Well, they ahead of time, the, the production management and, and, and, and company management, they sit together and they go, okay, these are the cities that we're doing, which is the smallest theater we're in Uhhuh , that, those are our dimensions. We can't, we can't get bigger than that.Michael Jamin (00:46:15):But you can put a smaller on a bigger, on a stage, you can put a small,Rick Negron (00:46:19):Yeah, yeah. And the show, I mean, the show was made for the Richard Rogers, which is a pretty small theater. I mean, it's an old 1920s Broadway theater, Uhhuh , that seats about 1300. So it's pretty small. And the stage backstage is kind of small too. So most of the theaters that we do on, that we go to on the road are much bigger than the Richer Rogers. Okay. So they just, you know, they just do black baffling on the sides and just make it more of a letter box. And it works. It works. As long as we're not in a place that's smaller than our set. And some shows have what they call a jump set, which means that while we're in one city, we have a, a second set that goes to the next city and gets built. And so that we close in, in Boise on a Sunday and we open in Salt Lake City on a, on a Tuesday, you know, but let's say one day.Michael Jamin (00:47:13):But let's say that you're doing a dance number and the stage is this big and your's, the dancer, you know. Okay. Six pace steps to get my next mark on a bigger stage. It's, isn't it more steps or No,Rick Negron (00:47:23):No, no, because you're, you're, regardless of the size of the stage you are set. It remains the same.Michael Jamin (00:47:30):Okay. So no one will go out of that.Rick Negron (00:47:32):Yeah, no. Yeah. We'll, we'll we'll never stretch it. Right. The set itself never gets stretched. If anything, the, the theater will come in with, with black you know what the, what they call the legs, those are, you know, a break a leg comes fromMichael Jamin (00:47:48):No,Rick Negron (00:47:48):Literally they, you know, break a leg is good luck. But it literally means the legs are those black drapes that come down in the front and also in each wing.Michael Jamin (00:47:59):Okay. SoRick Negron (00:47:59):When you, when you, when you go on stage, sometimes you have to move that drapery to get on stage or to, if you're gonna go in front of the, the, the in front of the curtain, you, you, you move it with your arm, you break the leg.Michael Jamin (00:48:15):So you're not, so you're not literally break. Okay. So you're,Rick Negron (00:48:18):You're not literally breaking the leg, you're not breaking anything. Parting, parting the drapery to go on stage.Michael Jamin (00:48:23):Oh. So this is very interesting. This is gonna be, yeah.Rick Negron (00:48:25):Yeah. It's a little theater trivia for Yeah. The, the folks out there.Michael Jamin (00:48:30):Fascinating. Now. Okay, so on a regular day, you go to a town, your new, your your new city or whatever, and they give you a per diem to Yeah. Goodbye lunch and get out apartmentRick Negron (00:48:42):Diem. The union sets a weekly per diem. And that is for you to spend as you wish. Uhhuh, . And then also company management way ahead of time will say we have three or four different hotels that we've negotiated a special deal for and choose which one you want to stay in. And these are the prices and these are the amenities and people choose from that list of hotels. But a lot of people nowadays are doing Airbnb, especially on a tour where you sit in a city for four weeks, five weeks, six weeks. The shortest stays we've ever had have been two weeks. But we've, we've done six weeks. And so a lot of people do Airbnbs cuz you have a kitchen and you have a washer dryer and more, you know. But isMichael Jamin (00:49:26):It, is staying in a hotel more fun? Is that dorm living, is that more fun for the cast?Rick Negron (00:49:31):Some, no, I don't think it's more fun for them. Some stay in the hotel cuz it'll be right next to the theater. And that's convenient. Yeah. Especially if we are in Denver and it's seven degrees outside. Being, you know, li living right near the theater is really cool when it's, when the weather's bad. But most people, a lot of people nowadays, they're getting Airbnbs and they're rooming together. So three or four people can get a really cool house.Michael Jamin (00:49:57):But I'm picturing Rick Negron (00:50:00):And, and they save money because they're rooming together. Right. So, you know, the rent, their ability to pay rent, I mean now they can use their per diem to live on, not just for their place to stay. They canMichael Jamin (00:50:12):Have you shared, have you shared apartments or No. Does the king, does the king have his own place now?Rick Negron (00:50:16):, I'm too old to have roommates. You're tooMichael Jamin (00:50:18):That crap.Rick Negron (00:50:18):I had roommates in my twenties and thirties. I'm done. But the only roommate I have is my wife. And CauseMichael Jamin (00:50:24):You're right.Rick Negron (00:50:24):But she's not really my roommate. SoMichael Jamin (00:50:26):My like, my naive opinion of what it must be like is like in high school when you're in the play it's like, you know, or even at a high school, you know, community, you are like, Hey, it's the, we're all the, it's the group, we're the gang, we're doing everything together. But once you become a pro, that's not the way it is. Huh? It's not likeRick Negron (00:50:45):It is at first it is, it's the honeymoon phaseMichael Jamin (00:50:49):Real. Okay. Where you're like hanging out togetherRick Negron (00:50:51):Where we all just meet and Oh, I know that person. We did a show together a long time ago. And so we become a little bit of a clique and then the, the cliques start happening early on. But we're one big happy family. Right. And we have opening night parties and you know, and all that occurs early on. But then the clicks really start creating Right. You know, the, the peop certain people start to hang out together. We had the, an our, our company's called an Peggy cuz each separate tour has a different name. There's the Angelica tour, the Philip Tour. These are characters in the show. Right. And Peggy is the third Skylar sister. So we became the third company. So we are called the An Peggy tour and we're, and there's a group of us we're called the, an Peggy Alpine Club. And literally, literally a bunch of us who like to hike and, and do outdoorsy stuff. We went snowboarding and skiing a lot in the winter. We, a lot of us got scuba cert certified for our Hawaii stay. Wow. And we've done incredible hikes all over the place. So that's our little clique. But also, you know, people that have, are married and right on tour together or have ki there's a few people that have kids on tour. They get together a lot.Michael Jamin (00:52:07):So and they bring their fam, they bring their kids on onto tour with them.Rick Negron (00:52:10):Yes. There's some people that do that. Yes. But some, some, someMichael Jamin (00:52:16):Like little kids are like high school age. Like you can't be like a high school-aged kid.Rick Negron (00:52:20):No. Most, most of 'em have young kids. You gotta understand. I, I'm working with a bunch of 20 and 30 year olds. Right. And I'm the oldest guy by far in, in, in, in, in the, in the company.Michael Jamin (00:52:30):What's that like being the oldest guy in the company?Rick Negron (00:52:33):Oh, I love it. Love. I used to be the youngest guy then I was, you know, in the same age as everybody. I love it because I as a king too. I, I have plenty of time to sort of mentor everybody. Yeah. And so I've become a little bit of, I, I'm the cheerleader. I check in on everyone and say, how you doing? I'm, I used to be a ma massage, massage therapist. So a anytime peop people are having issues. I, I'm close friends with our, our physical therapist that tours with us. So we work on people sometimes together in tandem.Michael Jamin (00:53:03):What is it they're worried? What is it they want mentoring at the, the career strategy? Like what, youRick Negron (00:53:08):Know, that this career strategy, sometimes it's just dealing with personalities in theater sometimes there's some, some headbutting. Um-Huh. sometimes people are just having problems with a, a particular, an understudies having a problem with a new character that they're understudying or, you know, there's issues on stage with somebody who doesn't quite know where they're supposed to stand at a certain point. Right. And all that is internal stuff that should be worked out with the dance captains and the stage management and, and the resident director. But you know, unfortunately, actors, you know, we have huge egos and, and they're also very fragile egos. And so there's a, a, a bit of nuance involved and people get their, their panties in a twist. And I'm, I'm usually the guy that comes around and, and talks people off the ledge sometimes. AndMichael Jamin (00:54:02):I would imagine we be very hard even, especially for the new guy or the new woman coming in, youRick Negron (00:54:06):Know? Yeah. And I, I I, I, I tend to be the welcome wagon too. Right. You're the new ones. Come on, I'm the king. You know, I'll show you the ropes.Michael Jamin (00:54:13):Wow.Rick Negron (00:54:14):So, so that's, I, I like taking that mantle, not just because I'm the king, but also because I'm sort of the senior member of the Right. And I've been around the block and people have asked me, you know, I'm sick and tired of show business. I want to do something else. And I'm like, you know, that's, I hear that I've, I've had that conversation many, many times in my career.Michael Jamin (00:54:34):Interesting. So why, yeah. I would think, see, right, you've made the touring company of Hamilton, it's pretty much the peak, you know, like, you know, forRick Negron (00:54:41):A lot of 'em want to do Broadway. So they're, you know, they're still focused on doing that Broadway show. And some of them have done Broadway, have done the tour, and, you know, they wanna settle down and meet somebody and have a Right.Michael Jamin (00:54:53):So they want to, is that, is that what the problem is? They, you know, they're done with the business. What, what's the problem?Rick Negron (00:55:00):Well, I mean, you know, you, we've got the new kids who are just starting out who wanna know about, you know, how do I get my, my foot in Broadway? You know, and there's those kids, and then they're the ones that have been around for a while who wanna maybe transition out of, out of the business and, and want some there was one girl who was interested in massage therapy. Oh, wow. And I said, you wanna become ao? Okay. Well, this is what you need to do. And matter of fact the union has something called what is it called? Career Transition for Dancers, which is a, a, a program where you can get grants to do some further education. So if you wanna learn how to be a massage coach, wow. Get a grant through the union. And, you know, I know some of this stuff so I can impart some of that knowledge. And for the young kids who, you know, I wanna get on Broadway, I'm like, okay, well, to get on Broadway, you have to be in New York. And while you're on tour, you know, can't do that. It's hard to get into that audition for that Broadway show. ButMichael Jamin (00:55:57):Are you still in those circles? I mean, it seems like you, I don't know. It seems like you must know. I don't know. You're, I, I guess I'm completely wrong. If you were you know, a dancer on the touring company, Hamilton seems like it wouldn't be that hard to, to find out about an audition on Broadway. And certainly wouldn't be that hard to get a job, because you're obviously really good.Rick Negron (00:56:18):Yeah. and we've had a few people leave our tour to go do a Broadway, Broadway show. I mean, actually, we just lost like two or three people to, one Girl is doing Bad Cinderella. She left our show to Do Bad Cinderella, which is a new Broadway show, a new Andrew League Webber show. Mm-Hmm. . Another guy just left our show to do the, the Candor Nbb, New York, New York that's opening on Broadway soon. So that does happen luckily with the advent of auditioning remotely via video that's helped things out a lot nowadays, so that if you're in Portland on tour, you can send in an audition via video for something back in New York.Michael Jamin (00:57:02):Even dancing. You can, like, you pull the camera back and you do some dance steps. I mean,Rick Negron (00:57:06):Is that what you do? Yeah. Or sing a song or, or, or, or read a scene. Okay. depending on what's needed. And sometimes you, you are able to take a personal day and fly back to New York and audition for something. Right? Yeah. Michael Jamin (00:57:23):Cause I would think, and I, I don't know. Obviously, I don't know it, I would think that if you're in Ham, the touring company of Hamilton, you're practically on Broadway and it's like, it's almost the same circles, except this is where the job is, you know?Rick Negron (00:57:34):True. But if you've been on tour for a year, you'd like to settle down and stop living out of a suitcase. I It'sMichael Jamin (00:57:39):Hard to be on the road.Rick Negron (00:57:40):Yeah. Or you've been doing Hamilton for a while and you just wanna do something different. Yeah. There's those, those kids, you know, they're hungry, they wanna do different stuff. Yeah. They don't wanna be on tour on Hamilton for four years like I have, but I've done a lot of stuff andMichael Jamin (00:57:53):Yeah. What, let's talk about what other, what, yeah, let's talk about some other, we, we, I think we got off track of your other Broadway shows and, and Off Broadway and not touring shows, rather.Rick Negron (00:58:01):Well, you know, I started, I started out young in the biz at 10 cuz my mom was a drama teacher. And then I sort of worked my way through community theater and children's theater and all that. And, and then I was a concert dancer in college and studied for who? Well, I, in college I studied modern dance in, in ballet. But when I got outta college, I, I was an

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! I don't think I've ever look forward to a year more. Because I truly feel 2023 will change my life forever. In this episode, I get vulnerable with you on my big goals that feel very edgy but it also...SO RIGHT. So if you want to learn more about me, my goals and intentions for 2023, then tune in! New Freebie! Wealthy Woman Webinar Wealth Consciousness Affirmation Meditation Be at the Embodied Live Conference! https://go.sarahroseconsulting.com/conference Prosper: Rebel Wealth Codes for the Modern Day Woman https://sarahrose.kartra.com/page/prosper Connect on Social: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrose_d/ --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/sarah-dangelo9/message

Block199.io Interview For our very first guest podcast, Rantum spoke with ElBarto_crypto  a Dune wizard and crypto data scientist, working on research at Block119.io. Recently, he's researched and published on topics like NFT Hodler segmentation, airdrops, and NFT wash trading.  How to check if a collection is made of hodlers or flippers Check wash trading volume for collections & platforms What tools el_barto uses to use to analyze collections What topics he plans to research next   Rough Transcript   [00:00:00] Rantum: All right. Uh, here we are. I, this is ran. Andrew, here I am with our very first guest. We've talked about this on the, if you've listened for a little while, we've talked about this on the intro for a long time, that we would have guests, we've, uh, yet to actually do that and. Well, that's up until today. Uh, we've had, uh, we have a data sign, another data scientist joining us today. [00:01:06] He actually reached out his Alberto Crypto as he goes by on Twitter. On Twitter. He reached out, uh, and asked to, to be a guest on the podcast. And, you know, I, I felt like we really needed to, to actually do it. So here we are. Welcome to the show, El Baro Crypto . [00:01:24] Elbarto Crypto: Gne. Well, thanks for having me. I've realized in life if you just asked people enough, they either get sick of you or they let you do something. [00:01:30] So in this case, I'm glad to be the latter. [00:01:33] Rantum: Yeah, yeah. Really excited to actually do this. You know, it's a good needy, you know, little instigator to, to make it happen. . Perfect. I love it. So tell me a little bit about yourself. How'd you get where you are? How'd you get into crypto? [00:01:48] Elbarto Crypto: Yeah, so I am actually a data scientist by trade. [00:01:51] I worked in marketing analytics for probably a little longer than a decade, doing everything from segmentation, machine learning just writing basic SQL queries. Got to spend a lot of time doing customer analytics for very large brands, uh, in the marketing space and. Sort of caught the Bitcoin bug in like end of 2014 ish and you couldn't do really anything at that point. [00:02:17] You could just send Bitcoin to each other and that was, that was fun. . And then yeah, Ethereum ICO came. Um, once again, people still just, you know, sending Ether around, maybe trading on XX Ether Delta, these crazy, um, underground exchanges. Uh, but once for, for a while, you know, really the only thing you could do is, is not get caught up in a scam or an ICO scam. [00:02:39] And then, uh, right around 2019, I believe it was, um, dune Analytics launched and that was like sort of. . That was sort of like the great equalizer for data scientists because now all of a sudden you have this platform that you could tap into to query the blockchain, you know, for free, honestly. And that was like the, the most beautiful thing. [00:02:58] You could just easily share careers with people, share dashboards with people. Then this Analytics community, sort of, joined around that. And then other products like SEN launched, um, flip side crypto, a lot of these, you know, data open blockchain on, on BigQuery. And so now all of a sudden you, you know, you didn't have to worry about data engineering running your own validator, running your own node. [00:03:18] You could just. Query data and you build, you know, beautiful data sets. And, uh, I think a lot of things like in the marketing analytics background, definitely applied to crypto just in terms of, you know, user retention who's actually using products, machine learning, things like that. So yeah, absolutely. [00:03:34] It's been a very natural transition to, uh, to analyzing data. And now, uh, now. It's gotten crazy. analyze a lot of data on Yeah. Yeah. , it's, it's a lot of fun though. Meet a lot of the people like yourself. So, yeah, [00:03:46] Rantum: similar background. I was, I did a lot in, in e-commerce, analytics, marketing, uh, for this and, you know, fem way into crypto. [00:03:53] And, and it's, it's, it's really exciting having access to all of the, the data as opposed to, you know, just what the, uh, the one company that you're working with, uh, provides. Right. [00:04:03] Elbarto Crypto: Yeah. I mean, that's such a good. Like I, I think people don't realize like how special this data set is if you go work for you know, like a big enterprise company, even as a data scientist, like, well one, like you probably don't get access to data right away. [00:04:17] You probably have to get approved. You have to, you know, build the trust of people to start analyzing data. Um, here from day one, you know, it's, it's open right here. You can even, I think Google BigQuery even gives you $300 free. Uh, so you can just tap in immediately and. Securing data. It's really, uh, it's really amazing. [00:04:35] Rantum: Yeah. Yeah. How did you. , what was, what did you get started with when you started on Dune? I mean, you saw that it was available, there's free data. What, what were the first projects that you got interested [00:04:46] Elbarto Crypto: in? Yeah, so the first thing was just really looking at like what, who's using, uh, who's using the platform? [00:04:52] And as many, many people know, my dog who's in the background, he's, uh, he's, he's running from farm to farm is what he's doing. Uh, many people, uh, I think at first it was just creating, you know, The raw blockchain data itself to really like, understand what's going on. I think, I think one of the biggest problems people face is there is this open data set, but immediately they, um, get inundated with these, uh, very specific contract calls and they have to, um, decode data and all of a sudden you're dealing with OS and hashes. [00:05:25] And I think at first people get really like overwhelmed. And I remember looking. , um, dune for the first time and just seeing all these contract abstractions, like, I think it, it must have started with Ave back then, but just thinking like, what is going on here? Like how this is, this seems impossible. So I think it definitely takes a lot of patience, but at first it was just, you know, how many people are using the Ethereum blockchain? [00:05:47] You know how many people a day are using it? How many people used it last month and now are using it this month again? So it was really, for me, it was really just basic before, um, really diving into like more more of the abstractions around like ave and then compound and really seeing that lending side and then really just trying to visualize like who's making big D trades, you know, just very basic, like, hey, just let's just sort dex trades by u SD volume and like, let's just see who's buying things. [00:06:14] So I think like, yeah, at first it was like super basic because honestly it, it's very overwhelming when you first look at it. Yeah, absolutely. [00:06:20] Rantum: I mean, having all of the data available is, is great. And it's also overwhelming, right? Having all the choices. Exactly. [00:06:29] Elbarto Crypto: Everything's thrown at you at once. It's uh, yeah, it's a lot of our. [00:06:34] Rantum: How did you, you know, or 2019 it was, you know, a lot of D trades, you know, then we got into, you know, the kind of defi after that and then, you know, saw, you know, NFTs come, you know, big in, you know, in 2021. I, you know, it's is when it was, you know, really took off. How did you, uh, What, what did, how did you start working with the N F T data? [00:06:56] Um, and how'd you find that different than working with some of the, uh, the early token data? Yeah, [00:07:01] Elbarto Crypto: I like, the reason I like N F T data a lot is because, um, the same token, i e d and the same, um, the transfers across trade. So I think one of the biggest problems you have with Dex trades and analyzing like defi data, , um, people can immediately go anonymous. [00:07:19] Like, if I make huge Dex trade I can then just go back into Binance or just send my phones back on a Coinbase or and then it just becomes like an, an empty hole. Like, well, what happens with that person? What happens with that token? But for n n T data, since it's all on chain and you can't really, and each token is, is essentially a, a unique token, it really lends to some interesting analytics around. [00:07:42] how long people hold NFTs. So I think that's what one of the things that drew me to it was, it's understanding the nuances are obviously like very complicated, like with lost shells, which we'll probably talk about later. But from the very beginning, it made sense to me that like ID one is always ID one and it always corresponds to the ID one. [00:08:03] So it, it really lends to some beautiful, like long-term a. , um, with NFT [00:08:08] Rantum: drill. Yeah. That, that non, that non fungible aspect really takes exactly [00:08:12] Elbarto Crypto: way, right, . Yeah, exactly. I think people take, I, I think, I think people don't realize like how unique that is. Uh, and definitely allows for, for interesting transac for interesting analysis. [00:08:22] Rantum: Yeah. I mean, I, I've definitely found that interesting. When you look at NFT collections, I mean, you can't look at trades as, you can't look at every trade as the same. I mean, there are. oftentimes reasons that things are trading at, at much, maybe something significantly higher than the floor. You know, sometimes there aren't, and you know, we know there's a lot of wash trading out there. [00:08:42] Um, have you found that, have you found that aspect difficult to decipher, you know, what is real versus, uh, sort of the wash trade or how much do you [00:08:52] Elbarto Crypto: Yeah. Uh, shout out to Hilda today for, for introducing a new, uh, uh, wash trading flag. So at first, like I remember this is like really dating myself. So like, well let's, you know, starting with like the looks rare, um, that was like when, when people first like, oh man, yeah, that, um, wash trade concept of like, hey, volume is exploding, but in reality like people are just nibis and terraforms. [00:09:19] Yeah, exactly. So I think it's like, yeah, I think it. It's so interesting because you, you, you can do very basic, you can do very good analytics, just the basic, you know, SQL group buy statements, and this is, this is Data Pod Science podcast. We'll just go right into and nerding it out. But you can do very like, easy analytics with, you know, group buy day, you know, what's the volume of n ft sales? [00:09:41] And I think a lot of a lot of mainstream publications like to just look at like, okay, um, volume is down 80. . But in reality, like it's obviously much more different than that. So, we now know that, uh, a lot of volume all looks rare was really just people farming will look for a token just mindlessly trading tokens. [00:09:57] And so from there it, you know, it'll, it, it forced people to sort of think a little deeper in terms of, you know, a trade is not just a trade and you know, what is an actual wash sale trade or and now I think. . It's interesting because blur almost, it, it forces you to rethink about analytics once again, because we know like what a, a wash trade is now. [00:10:18] But now there's like these very interesting, um, analytics going on about people, you know. Taking this one step further and doing all sorts of crazy placing orders like slightly above the floor price when they not be a wash sale or maybe swapping out NFTs. So like let's say if you own a board ape and you just want to farm, you don't really care what ape you own and you just kind of wanna farm the the blur sale, you can sort of just. [00:10:42] Sell eight, buy another one, sell that one, buy another one. You're not really changing anything. Even taking slate laws [00:10:48] Rantum: to Exactly, yeah. Of the blurred to eventual, blurred [00:10:51] Elbarto Crypto: token . Exactly. In the hopes of getting a $50,000 airdrop. Uh, so it's interesting now, like, as these N F T models evolve for, for revenue for these exchanges, like then doing the due diligence of analytics to, to figuring out, you know, what's. [00:11:09] Rantum: Yeah, it, it's, you know, we see these incentives and, I mean, we've seen all these, uh, sort of vampire attacks on open sea and different ways to try to maybe disincentivize people from gaming, the systems, and it seems like. Collectors or, you know, maybe not, and maybe those, I shouldn't really call those people the collectors. [00:11:28] These are the, the people out there. There's somebody that's going to figure out how to, to make the most of the system. And, you know, it's, it's a tough one when you to, to, to look ahead and realize what people are going to [00:11:38] Elbarto Crypto: do, . Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's, it, it's, I don't wanna say it's fa as an analytics person, but like it definitely makes you think, and it definitely challenges you to say, , how can I use data to, to understand what, what's really going [00:11:53] Rantum: on? [00:11:55] Yeah. I mean, it, it is, I mean, all of these different crypto charts, there's always, you know, looks all steady until there's a serious inflection point and something drastic changes. And, and you see this all the time. I mean, you know, and in just the volume that you see among opens sea and blur and, and looks rare and, you know, you, you sort of need to know the story behind why these, these things are changing so drastically. [00:12:17] Elbarto Crypto: Yeah, exactly. And I think that makes you a better analytics person too. Like I, you know, if, if you're looking at break into this sector, and you know, like on job interviews and things like that. Like definitely bringing up points of like, well, why do you think um, hey, this data looks like the way it is. Is it sustainable? [00:12:33] Exactly to your point. Like, is it sustainable? Like, what's really going on here? I think, do you really have a ability to differentiate, like in this space, if you can bring these, you know, differentiated analytics. So can you tell me [00:12:46] Rantum: a little bit about block 1 99 and then the N F T Hudler segmentation that you've been working? [00:12:53] Elbarto Crypto: Yeah. So, um, we are essentially just a research firm. Uh, we do research for, you know, individuals for protocols, uh, all across the stack. And so a while back someone was essentially wanted to understand, you know, what, you know, how people, how different N F T projects are and what their users look like. [00:13:15] So for example, like if you have an N F T project where. , most of the holders are people that you know, are these larger whales? Maybe just like trading in and out of things, you know, what does the long-term engagement really look like versus an N F T project where a lot of people. we're in it from the beginning. [00:13:37] And, um, they're true loyalists like of a project. And so what they were trying to understand was, you know, should I, you know, invest in this N F T project because are are the people that are really long term holders. So the way to do that, and, and it's really a, a beauty of the blockchain is you, you can, uh, you can essentially just take all the holders of a certain n ft collection and then you. [00:14:02] uh, count how many NFTs they own. Some the amount of volume that's been spent look at, you know, are they how much wash sales have they done? How many floor sweeps have they done? So you essentially have this data frame of, you know, the 10, you know, the 5,000 holders and, you know, what's all their N F T activity. [00:14:19] From there, you can just like run a kme segmentation to find these different, um, groups of, of people and then figure out like, okay, well what is their activity in the entire N F T space? So if you see that, you know, 90% of the holders, you know, on average holding N F T collection for 20 days, or are the, you know, top 10% of traders on X two, Y two, you may think twice about buying that FT collection because, you know, people are just flipping it for the sake [00:14:47] Rantum: of Flipp. [00:14:48] Right. Right. And so when you're looking at these, the activity, you're looking at activity from all [00:14:55] Elbarto Crypto: NFTs, [00:14:56] Rantum: that, that may have ha uh, been passed through this wallet. You're not looking at necessarily that specific collection. Right, [00:15:01] Elbarto Crypto: exactly. Yeah. And I think like, you, you know, you can, you can almost sort of like then do this matrix if you will. [00:15:08] Like, you could segment, um, just like current activity and then sort of like create this matrix of like Yeah. All other n ft activity to get really, like, dive into. How the users play out. But ideally, like what you're looking for and in the case of this person that they were looking for was, they wanted to see that people who are like true contributors to the N F T community or they had like strong holdings and like what would held on, would hold on a lot. [00:15:32] think like some good examples of that are like, if you look at pudgy penguins, um, shout out to the, to the poo group. Um, a lot of them have, if you, you just look at simple like distributions of how long they've been the project for. Like a lot of them, um, have held since the beginning almost. And so you kind of look at that community and say like, okay, is that's something that I wanna do for the long term. [00:15:54] and the price. And, you know, the price has done pretty well. They had on a recent mini surge this, um, past couple of weeks. But it makes sense because, you know, just the supply of, of poos to hit the market is if no one's selling, it's always going down the, the number, the amount of supply that's hitting the market. [00:16:11] So, um, it makes sense that, you know, eventually, uh, Prices price go up. So Right. Versus, uh, versus like, you see [00:16:20] Rantum: the sustained interest, I guess is, is something that it's a little hard to measure from inactivity, but if they're not, if they're not dumping, there is something there. Right. . Yeah, exactly. [00:16:30] Elbarto Crypto: And I think that's the, that's like the holy grail of NFT engagement is how do you measure engagement of, of the nons sellers. [00:16:37] Because right now I, you know, Like volume does not equal engagement. If someone is selling their N F T, they're the least engaged with the brand. [00:16:45] Rantum: Right, right. Volume is is a very poor measure of, of the quality of a [00:16:50] Elbarto Crypto: project. Exactly. I, the problem is like unfortunately, like we don't have another way to, to do this. [00:16:55] And I think like the ways so far, it's interesting looking at the, the board ape ecosystem and, and, and maybe you can see. , you know, how many people are participating in governance or how many, you know, a polls also hold ape coin. But, you know, getting outside of the blockchain, you know, engagement becomes a much more interesting thing. [00:17:18] I think the evolution of NFTs should be some sort of like, loyalty, you know, coming back to the marketing world, you know, some sort of like marketing, uh, you know, CRM engagement platform where you can engage like outside of the blockchain. . Uh, so it's, it's, it's definitely in its ancy. And I think I'll, I think, I think NFT brands that are, are data first and are looking to expand their analytics capability are definitely gonna do better. [00:17:43] Rantum: Yeah. It feels like there's just a lot not being used. I mean, you can obviously find out so much about your, your holders and what their interests are just by looking at the wallet, and I don't think that's being, being used by many, uh, project creators or uh, leaders at this point. [00:17:59] Elbarto Crypto: Oh yeah, absolutely agree. [00:18:01] Rantum: Um, so you've developed something called an nf or you're working on something called an N F D D Gen Score. Can you just tell me a little bit about that? [00:18:08] Elbarto Crypto: Yeah, so I'm looking for someone to take this over actually. So DM me because I'm going out on crypto paternity leave soon. But essentially, uh, there's something called the defi, um, D Degen score, or it's just, I think it's just called DEGEN score. [00:18:23] um, your defi activity, right? And I, I want to build, I'm in the process of building, haven't built yet. Sort of like this N F T engagement or D gen score of, okay, how many you know, how many projects do you hold? How many mints have you done? How many, how many trades have you placed? Um, the idea here is more along the lines of it's almost like a segmentation, but. [00:18:46] if you're an N F T project, that's going to whitelist some you know, whitelist or project for certain holders or addresses. It would be nice if you had an idea of, of, you know, who would you want to whitelist this for? And like, do you wanna exclude certain groups? Do you wanna include only people with above a certain score or, you know, have had certain engagement? [00:19:06] So I think it's like really meant for, you know, hopefully for projects to better understand. , Hey, let's, you know, make this let's make this white list. Like for people that really care about NFTs or like people that aren't just gonna like immediately dump, um, these NFTs. So there's a lot of ways you can do this. [00:19:24] I, I would want to almost optimize this for like, engagement with NFTs instead of just like farming to dump. But I think that's where the hard part comes in. [00:19:36] Rantum: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think we're seeing, I mean, we're so sort of a misalignment, so many places of, you know, where are the, you know, what is activity and, you know, what, where is the, you know, where are the royalties coming from? [00:19:46] When you're thinking about all these, uh, these different issues, it seems like we come back to the same thing. The people that are are selling are the ones that are co, I mean, you know, obviously a, a cell requires a buy, but that's when the, the income comes into a project. When. Ideally you just want nobody to, to really wanna sell. [00:20:05] Right? And [00:20:05] Elbarto Crypto: yes. Yes, [00:20:07] Rantum: exactly. How do you, I don't know. I'm not, you know, I see that one, I know that one of the projects that you wanna work on is, uh, trying to calculate the royalty income and, you know, do you see that as being a sustainable model going forward? [00:20:21] Elbarto Crypto: I, you know, I'm very mixed on this because I used to think, like, I used to want projects. [00:20:26] I used to really like the royalty initiative because I think it is fair in some sense. . I think if we were to eliminate royalties like tomorrow, I think they would force N F T brands to start thinking of like alternative business models because yeah, like as we said over and over again, like the royalty optimizes towards people selling. [00:20:47] In reality, it should be the complete flip of that. Like the most engaged people, like across every brand, the most engaged people with the brand are the ones like creating the revenue for you. I, while I, I don't know exactly where I fall in the royalty space right now. I, I, you know, it's not, luckily it's not my job to do that. [00:21:07] Yeah, right. . But I think that like, it would force n f T brands to think of new revenue streams that I only think will help them. Because right now royalties are obviously limited to people that are buying and selling NFTs. And the goal is to. a brand. Just a brand in general, right? Like when you think about Ferrari, like everyone knows Ferrari. [00:21:30] Their, their brand recognition is beyond anything. They, I, I was surprised though. I was looking at their, their income statement and they, the majority of their money, they still make off of selling cars, selling parts, et cetera. I think only like 15% of their revenue comes from like merchandising and things like that. [00:21:46] For an N F T brand, that should be the opposite. It, in my opinion, like 15% should come from royalties and then 85% should come from some other I don't know what that is. Hopefully someone smarter than they can figure that out, but yeah. Yeah, it's [00:21:58] Rantum: tough to say what that is because they're, you know, as collectors. [00:22:02] I, I think people expect to get something from that. Mm-hmm. . And as we've seen recently with the, uh, artifact uh, Nike, uh, project, you know, people are not terribly happy when the, the, the next part was the ability to buy something and, you know, maybe a discount. So, you know, I think that still has to be worked out and I'm, I'm curious where that does go. [00:22:23] Yeah, I'm not , I'm not exactly sure where I fall overall, you know, I'm very pro royalty. Artist, but I think that's a very different thing than, than these 10,000 piece collections. You know, when I think of art, you know, I'm thinking of small collections or, or even one of one. I see that as being a sustainable model going forward. [00:22:41] Very different than, you know, 5,000 or 10,000 because you've always got other people that are, I mean, it becomes a bigger issue for the liquidity of a project when you've got a five or 10%, um, royalty, uh, fee built in. [00:22:54] Elbarto Crypto: Oh yeah, absolutely. Like the art box, when you have only have 200 of them, you would hope, yeah, you would hope that some sort of wallet royalty, right? [00:23:01] Yeah. But um, it's also, yeah, like when people expect something, it's like they, they don't understand like the, the basic like lifetime value, the customer acquisition cost ratio, which is, which is completely flipped now because if I buy a doodle right now, uh, doodle will get, you know, whatever the 3% of. [00:23:24] $6,000 sale. So let's call it $180. Like great. Uh, yeah. That, that's tough for them. . Yeah. Yeah. To give me more, uh, to give me, I, yeah. I think people definitely expect $180 more of stuff. And I know, I hear, I hear doodle putt was really fun, but. . [00:23:44] Rantum: Yeah. I didn't make it over there. I was, I was down in Miami and I did not get to go to that. [00:23:48] Elbarto Crypto: Unfortunately. , I'm sure, uh, I'm sure many of the doodle holders though are, are, uh, negative. Uh, yeah. So that's like one of the issues, right? Like if you become a doodle holder, you expect the world, but like the, the economics just don't work yet. Hopefully they do in the future, but Yeah. Or like, I mean, I think this, like, I think this introduces like new. [00:24:10] New forms of business. Like if, if doodles were to, you know, create these events, but like you could lend your N F t to somebody to go, or you know, that they would pay a fee and like lend a doodle or something like that. I think like there could be interesting innovation there. It's just. [00:24:28] Rantum: Yeah, it is, it does feel like it's still to be determined how, how to really structure these for, for a longer term. [00:24:35] You know, it, it reminds me a bit of. Just as you saw advertising in, you know, online advertising, it got more and more expensive and, you know, there's more promotions and, and things to get people to come and, and click. And, you know, you're talking about the, the lifetime acquisition. You know, it went from early on when you were advertising on, on Google, you know, you could make. [00:24:54] You know, you could even maybe make a profit on, on a sale or something. And then it turned into a longer and longer lifetime and you just saw that the cost go up as it sort of got inflated. And, you know, I think Barta that was maybe, you know, there was obviously more money being spent and you saw that there was a lot of, a lot of venture capital coming in. [00:25:12] Um, I'm wondering like how that's going to start affecting. , you know, these rewards and everything. You know, if it's going to be, you know, in, I mean, I assume that it's going to get redistributed, they're like less middle men. You know, you can, it's being given directly and, you know, it's hard to recognize what is, what's, what's real versus, you know, what's sort of artificially pumped in [00:25:32] Elbarto Crypto: Yeah, absolutely. I, yeah, and it'll probably take another year to play out to see what these, yeah. What this looks like. But, [00:25:38] Rantum: um, what else are you, uh, excited about? Right. . [00:25:40] Elbarto Crypto: I think definitely like the more of the in-person experiences, um, within the NFT space. I think like I, I, I am glad everyone is mad at like Live Nation and Ticketmaster right now because I, I hope that, uh, I hope that somehow the N F T space, uh, can solve for that somehow. [00:25:59] Uh, like I'm a big fan of India Top Shot. I, the product is beautiful. It's just a, it's a great experience, but you know, like as a, as a, as a top shot, like minnow, not quite a plankton, I'll, I'll call myself a minnow. Uh, you know, I'm definitely looking for that, like further engagement of like, with, you know, with the team that I like or with the player that I like. [00:26:22] Like how, how does that like work and, and, and sort of like what's the next step for them. Certainly looking for, you know, forward to that. And then I think like on like the zuki uh, collection, you know, I. , I kind of wanna see. They have great, like website. They have a great website right now. I think they're, you know, they're branding. [00:26:40] It's really on spot. I'm, I'm really a [00:26:42] Rantum: lot with, uh, with, with wearables as well, right? Yeah, [00:26:45] Elbarto Crypto: exactly. Like I saw, I, I, I was just like walking around, uh, where I lived the other day and someone was wearing, wearing a, um, a Bathing Ape shirt and I'm like, I'm like, oh man, I, I'm kind of like, I'm hoping like bored ape supplements that, or something like that. [00:26:58] So I'm definitely looking for these like real world experiences, like the bridge between the two and then, yeah, like in like the new innovations of, of business models for these, uh, and like when, you know, when everything will just airdrop, you know, that's what I'm looking for. . [00:27:13] Rantum: Yeah. Right. Air when Airdrop [00:27:14] Yeah. When [00:27:15] Elbarto Crypto: airdrop, I'm just gonna mask token. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Just one day, just give it all to me, you know? Right. Yeah. [00:27:21] Rantum: That would be, those were nice back, back when those were just coming out every couple weeks. Right. it, it was nice. Yeah, it was [00:27:28] Elbarto Crypto: nice. Uh, have [00:27:30] Rantum: you been to, uh, many in-person events or have you gotten to get to. [00:27:33] Elbarto Crypto: I, you know, it's funny, before the pandemic I used to go to a lot and I tell this funny story of, um, I went to a, this is like really gonna show my age. I went to a Dere meetup which is, for those who don't know, is, uh, is a, a Bitcoin esque product. And, um, , they, the where I went, they ordered, um, they ordered 10 pizzas, but only eight people went to the event. [00:27:57] So, uh, that just kind of shows you like how, uh, popular crypto was in [00:28:03] Rantum: 2018. [00:28:05] Elbarto Crypto: I wanna say. This was, um, I bet they didn't pay for the pizza with Bitcoin anyway. No, they, no, they did not. Uh, they used good old Uncle Sam dollars. So it's. It's really interesting to see like how how far things have come. And, and I was, uh, I went to an event, like a coup, a pretty small event, um, about a couple months ago. [00:28:25] And, um, it's good to see the energy back with people. Um, I like to see that. I, I, uh, I think I'm gonna make a huge, you know, I'm, I think I'm gonna make a splash next year by trying to go to some of these places, but, um, it seems like, uh, it seems like, yeah, there's good energy there. . Uh, yeah, [00:28:42] Rantum: I've enjoyed getting out to some events. [00:28:44] Just was at Basl as I, as I mentioned, and, uh, hoping to get to N ft N YC again, uh, this coming year. They seem to just, uh, make, make it difficult and move the month every , every event, . Um, lovely. So you can't really, you can never predict it, but , did you say anything? [00:29:01] Elbarto Crypto: Was there any interesting activations at, at Basil? [00:29:05] Uh, [00:29:06] Rantum: so NFT now had a big. Two blocks are so. Just for their own event. But then they had different booths within there where art blocks was there and Meta mask was there. And, uh, nine dcc, uh, which I talked about, um, recently, they had a min a shirt there, a one of 1200 was a snow fro. Oh. Uh, inspired art on this shirt. [00:29:32] So they worked with him on that. So there were some, there were some definitely cool, uh, N F T events. Um, you know, it was a little quieter in the N F T areas than, than maybe I I expected, uh, compared to, compared to something like, I mean, N F T NYC is just, it's, it's pretty big, you know? I know there's. [00:29:49] There's some complaints about, uh, the event. And, and I would also say that you don't necessarily have to go to, to the official event to, uh, to find many things to do. I mean, that's, that's, that's definitely the case at Basel, you know, where it's very unofficial. It's part of ma maybe it's part of Miami Art Week. [00:30:05] I'm not sure if it's technically even, even that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, right. But yeah, the in-person events I think are great. You know, I think people are still kind of getting out and I think part of, you know, even the, the fashion things, it's part of kind of bringing. Off the screen, off the, you know, off the computer and making it a little bit more real [00:30:23] Right. Exactly. [00:30:25] Elbarto Crypto: Step away from farming. It'll be, you'll be okay. You don't have to get all of them. [00:30:29] Rantum: Yeah. Right. , So you have, you have some new dashboards coming soon, but you are, you're well right now. It sounds like you are, uh, paternity leave. Huh? [00:30:38] Elbarto Crypto: trying to figure out how to make, how to do a swaddle. Yeah. So, oh man. Yeah, [00:30:42] Rantum: I remember that one. . [00:30:44] Elbarto Crypto: Yeah. Any need tips? Let me know. Yeah, I mean, I'm always looking on, you know, always looking for new data. [00:30:48] Um, always trying to build, you know, Data dashboards really to help people understand, you know, how data's being surfaced. You know, I've got a lot of like, you know, research projects on the back burner. Really trying, really, like trying to go after this question of like N F T engagement and you know, what kind of, who will be around for the long haul. [00:31:07] And then really, I am very curious about this defi N F T overlap. I, I think there's very, you know, I think the two are very separate right now, and I think people just assume by building a, a lending NFT platform that everyone will just come, you know, no questions asked. But in reality, the reason people got into NFTs is not because. [00:31:33] they're also excited about uncollateralized lending. Like they don't know what any of those words mean. And frankly, I don't think , I [00:31:40] Rantum: don't think anyone. Right. Yeah, that's good. Good [00:31:42] Elbarto Crypto: point. Yeah. So I, I, but then at the other hand, like on the other hand, I, I think, you know, if you have a board ape, you know, if you did get lucky and held on for all this time and you're sitting on, you know, $70,000, , it would be nice, you know, to realize some of these profits or, you know, maybe you have a dog who's going off to college and, and you need to pay tuition. [00:32:07] Uh, you know, it would be nice to realize maybe the little, these profits, um, yeah, [00:32:11] Rantum: right. For fractional [00:32:12] Elbarto Crypto: ownership. So I think it's definitely an un, an untapped area. I, I don't know how it'll work though in terms of UI and, and execut. [00:32:21] Rantum: what, uh, what, what, what have you been active with in what, in your wallet Recently? [00:32:27] Elbarto Crypto: What has been my wallet? I, you know, I'm like a, a real, a real defi, uh, degen. Uh, recently I've been, uh, I've been, I was like really bad farms that I've been going into. It's, uh, it's pretty sad. I, I've been trying to figure out recently, you know, some of these like NFT projects that have really gotten sold off. [00:32:47] there's a lot of work going behind the scenes. So like Rumble Kongs, for example. Um, this was like a project that really, you know, had a lot of hype. Um, so I own a couple Rumble Kongs in, in full transparency. This is a project that got a lot of hype. I think Steph Curry was wearing a Rumble Kong hat at some point. [00:33:04] Okay. ? Yeah. And like they have people working on it behind the scenes. You know, there are, there are truly people working. They are alive. Um, they are, you know, programming. I'm, I'm gonna check, I'm gonna check the floor [00:33:15] Rantum: price right now. Here's mine. And the ones that are, they're still busy and haven't left. [00:33:20] I mean, we know that a lot of these are going, they're going to zero. And, um, it is. You know, finding the ones that are still busy and gonna keep building through, you know, through the bear. That's, that's, uh, it's key if you can find them . [00:33:34] Elbarto Crypto: Right, exactly. So, yeah, you know, I'm kind of looking at that area a little bit. [00:33:38] I've been trying to like, you know, look at more like these illiquid art blocks, collections. Yeah, . I just don't know right now like what the best way. I don't know what the best way to display them or engage with like other people or like really engage with the artists is yet. So I'm still trying to like, I also just don't want to get ripped off by like buying, you know, something for like four E and then being like, what have I done, like [00:34:02] Rantum: immediately? [00:34:02] Right. But I mean, there's some, there are some very pricey, very illiquid pieces in, uh, in our blocks. You know, there's definitely some, some grape buys. Uh, can be difficult to tell the difference. And, you know, that that's the beauty of NFTs, right? , yeah, exactly. [00:34:18] Elbarto Crypto: Um, you know, I, I respect what the pudgy team is doing. [00:34:20] Uh, I don't own any poos maybe, you know? Yeah. [00:34:24] Rantum: That is impressive. They're, they're the strength of the holders. The D Gen score is high, huh? Absolutely. [00:34:29] Elbarto Crypto: Yeah. And they're really, uh, they're really executing there. So, um, you know, shout out to the team there for. Putting something good together. So yeah, that's like, I've been really trying to think about like, you know, what projects are still actively being worked on and, and sort of like, can you scoop up any, any good values? [00:34:46] Uh, yeah. And like, you have to like what it is, right? I mean, like, I don't, like if I buy something I, you know, honestly, like I don't wanna sell it. I, I, uh, You know, I'll just hold on [00:34:55] forever. [00:34:56] Rantum: That's the best way, right? Just by what you, what you actually want to own . [00:34:59] Elbarto Crypto: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That way if it goes zero, you feel a little less bad. [00:35:04] So [00:35:04] Rantum: yeah. Hey, we all have at least a few of those, right? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Awesome. Uh, so where can people find you and, uh, [00:35:12] Elbarto Crypto: You. Yeah. You can find a very inactive crypto account starting today at El barto underscore crypto on Twitter. Uh, I'll be back in February. Don't worry. [00:35:22] Rantum: You do have a list of, uh, research for I, you know, people will wanna get some homework. [00:35:25] There's, there's some . [00:35:27] Elbarto Crypto: Yeah. If you feel like you have nothing to do over the, over the break and, uh, you wanna. do some NFT research. I have plenty of projects for people to hand out. So Is the baby here already? No. No. It, it's coming soon. Yeah. All right. Well, [00:35:42] Rantum: so very exciting. That's awesome. Um, anything else you wanna add before we sign off here? [00:35:47] Elbarto Crypto: You know, I would add if anyone has any advice on having a bo a dog stop barking in a shadow, like please reach out to me because, uh, it's been a, a constant thorn on my side. He's a great, he's a great pal and a great farmer, so welcome to you. [00:36:01] Rantum: That shadow's throwing him. Awesome. Well, thank you so much Alberto Crypto. [00:36:04] This is awesome. First interview. Uh, very excited, and we'll have to talk again soon. [00:36:10] Elbarto Crypto: Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. All right.  

Today, we are joined by Pete Reese to talk about the complexity of flipping land as a business. He is the president of Real Vest Properties. He has successfully purchased and sold hundreds of pieces of real estate and he's on track to earn over 4 million in revenue here in 2022.    [00:01 - 07:22] How He Started Out He started out by buying and selling single family homes in the 2000s, and then transitioned into flipping bank-owned properties during the 2008-2009 recession Since starting his own business two years ago, Pete has been successful in doubling his investment every 60 days, and is on track to earn over 4 million in revenue by 2022 Why one challenge Pete has faced is managing a large number of properties simultaneously   [07:23 - 11:30] Buying Land in the US for Recreational Purposes They focus on the East Coast or Southeast US because land values are reasonable Why some areas are active markets, while others may have less demand Why the company looks for properties that have a gentle topography, road frontage, and legal access   [11:31 - 21:29] Real Estate Lessons Learned  The process of buying land, including the use of in-house capital or money partners, and the percentage of returns on investment How a minor subdivision is taking a property splitting it into five parcels or less and how it can be a good strategy for beginning stages of a development How they will hire an engineer to draw up potential plans for what the subdivision could look like and list it with a commercial broker.   [21:30 - 23:13] Closing Segment Reach out to Pete!  Links Below Final Words     Tweetable Quotes   “Essentially in this land business, there are money partners available.” - Pete Reese   “I like buying and selling. Creating value it's almost like a mini game.” - Pete Reese   -----------------------------------------------------------------------------   Connect with Jason! Follow Pete Reese on LinkedIn.  Website: turningprofit.com   Connect with me:   I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.     Facebook   LinkedIn   Like, subscribe, and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or whatever platform you listen on. Thank you for tuning in!   Email me → sam@brickeninvestmentgroup.com     Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below:   [00:00:00] Pete Reese: So we always send a photographer out and sometimes we've got a local broker agent that we're working with too that'll go out to the property for us as well. So we try to do that whenever we can. We always resell the properties with a local broker and we kind of use them during the due diligence process and get their opinion on what the value of the property is or what the area's like. And then we re-list the property with them. [00:00:34] Sam Wilson: Pete Reese is the president of Real Vest Properties. He has successfully purchased and sold hundreds of pieces of real estate, and he's on track to earn over 4 million in revenue here in 2022. Pete, welcome to the show.  [00:00:46] Pete Reese: Well, thanks for having me. [00:00:47] Sam Wilson: Absolutely. The pleasures mine. Pete, there are three questions I ask every guy who comes to the show in 90 seconds or last, can you tell me where did you start? Where are you now and how did you get there? [00:00:56] Pete Reese: Great. Well, I started like anyone else or a lot of other people, bought our single family home in the year 2000 and kind of got hooked because when we sold it, we made about 50 grand on it. And got into flipping homes a little bit before the giant market crash in 2007 to 2009 ish area. So we were flipping homes. We were really successful with that kind of transition into, you know, I had gotten my real estate broker's license in the meantime, and when the market crashed, I really got heavily involved into selling bank owned properties for the banks. That's what was selling at the time. So I kind of just went where the market was. So I did that for quite some time. Also focused on short sales for quite some time, like helping homeowners sell their homes through short sales. So I got really good at that.Through that area, I actually connected with a bunch of large investment companies and for a while there I just focused on finding them deals. Learned a lot, sold a lot of properties through them, and kind of got the itch eventually to get back into real estate investing. So about two years ago, I kind of stumbled into the model of land flipping and, we're actually in our second full year of the business. 2021 was not even a full year in the business or March of 2021, we resold our first property. And now we're finishing up 2022 and hopefully on track to do 4 million, maybe 3.7, somewhere in that range. But yeah, so things are going very well and we're really having a good time with it, man. [00:02:25] Sam Wilson: That's impressive growth. I mean, you've been to this for two years and you talked about a lot of different aspects of the business you were involved in. I mean, going from short sales, R E O properties, even brokering to institutional buyers and people like that, like the complexity factor I would imagine into the land business has gone down dramatically. [00:02:47] Pete Reese: Oh yeah. It's great because it's a very simple business in a way. I mean, the business model is just simple. Sending out direct mail offers essentially to landowners. Yeah. And you know, we curate these lists and we filled 'em down and everything, and then we get the phone either ringing or them emailing us back and we just work out a deal with the landowners and we buy properties at, you know, the price where it makes sense for us to then be able to put 'em on the market and then resell 'em quickly. So our average hold time is only about 60 days. So typically I add this vision that land takes forever to sell and certain models of land investing do take a long time to sell, but not in this model. It's more of a quick, quick, quick sit situation and we'll do minor development things to these properties. We might get 'em surveyed, we might get a perk test, we might do some clearing on the properties. So we do some of those things to kind of enhance the value for a prospective buyer. But ultimately we just try to keep moving really quickly. [00:03:45] Sam Wilson: Wow. So gimme an ideal purchase for you guys. What's the ideal property look like that you wanna buy? [00:03:53] Pete Reese:  Well, first of all, we try to double our money in all of our investments. So for the most part, we're using our own cash. So right now, try to stay on the minimum side of a purchase price as say 30,000, try to sell it for net 60,000 was. You know, I actually like at this point I'm trying to gravitate towards the bigger and bigger properties, you know, like a hundred thousand dollars purchase price, $150,000 purchase price. But many times the goal is the same to try to double our money. And, you know, if we could do that every 60 days, then it starts multiplying very quickly.  [00:04:27] Sam Wilson: Have you ever figured out the annualized return on, like, say a single dollar invested and just sat down and tried to do the math just for kicks and gig? [00:04:37] Pete Reese: Oh yeah. Yeah, it's, it's insane. You know, some of the deals, you know, you know, I've had deals where we hold it for 21 days only, and that's including a resale escrow period and everything. And you know, maybe triple our money and then it's just astronomical in terms. It's like thousands of percentage if you multiply that out, you know, keep that money moving. [00:04:56] Sam Wilson: Right, right. Oh, that's hysterical. I love that. You know, and, and I think one of the things that I would find challenging in this model, and tell me why I'm wrong, is that at 30,000 bucks a pop, say on an average size 30 to. and you're gonna do 4 million in revenue. I'm not gonna try to do the math on the show here, but that's a lot of parcels of property. It's a lot of moving pieces. How do you manage all of that in a meaningful way?  [00:05:21] Pete Reese: Yeah, I've got a great team around me. That's how I've, I've uh, you know, made it happen. I've got, I've got, uh, kind of everyone to sort of help me with every aspect of it, and at this point I'm kind of planning out our mailings, you know, like where we wanna send mail to and our outreach approving the deals and you know, working on the resale side of things, a lot of the negotiations on offers that come in. So that's kind of where I do most of my stuff. But I've got a great team handling all the different aspects. I've got someone that does all the phone calls with the, any, any of the sellers or any of the communication to get things under contract. I've got a transaction manager that handles it from contract to closing and yeah. I've got a property analyst that helps me review all these properties and dig into them deep and kind of do our due diligence and well, a number of other team members as well that have along the way.  [00:06:14] Sam Wilson: There's parcels of land you can buy in the United States that aren't worth acquiring. I'm thinking like you get out, you got in the Western states and it's like, oh, hey, there's this giant parse tracked land. A hundred acres in Arizona, in the middle of absolutely nowhere. [00:06:30] Pete Reese: You know, yeah. There's people that focus on that in the land investing side of things, you know, the desert Squares, we call 'em. You know, personally, I don't see the peel too, but it's kind of a different model that a lot of 'em do. They'll buy these things for ultra cheap, you know? Right. Maybe a hundred dollars an acre or something, and then they'll sell it to people on terms, you know, for a much higher price. So that's, that's a whole different thing than what I'm doing because we're, we're buying them for cash and then we're cashing out when we resell them. We're not holding any of the notes on any of these properties, and the properties that we're buying are generally within an hour to two of major metropolitan areas, but rural areas. And for the most part, we're kind of buying 10 acres plus parcels at this point. Although we have done smaller, but that way that the properties could either be used for recreational purposes or potentially a home site. [00:07:23] Sam Wilson: Right. How have you selected where, I mean, the United States is a big country, so how you selected, where is ideal, an ideal target market for you guys? I know you mentioned a couple things, but within a couple hours of a major city but that still leaves a lot of land to buy.  [00:07:27] Pete Reese: Yeah, yeah. Most of our stuff has been East Coast or SouthEast. And just like those areas, because land values are actually somewhat reasonable. There's a lot of vacant land, so there's a lot of potential deals to make and they're active markets in the land as well. Some areas you'll notice, you'll do your research and you'll see, you know, there's a ton of listings, but not a lot of sales, right? So either there's some sort of imbalance between what the sellers want and what the buyers wanna. or maybe that it's just land that is not, you know, not too desirable in a certain area, those areas still work. You just have to be able to put it on the market at just such a cheap price to, to really gain attention. [00:08:19] Sam Wilson: How are people financing the acquisition of it? Or do you require that your buyers all have cash?  [00:08:27] Pete Reese: Yeah, we just put it on the list. We lease it with a broker, just like a house or, you know, a commercial property. And then the buyers figure it out on their end. So some of them. It's cash and some of 'em are using a HELOC on, say, a primary residence. I see that happen a lot, you know, to get the, to get the cash for this deal. Mm-hmm. . And then there are some land specific lenders that sometimes the buyers use.  [00:08:51] Sam Wilson: Okay. Okay. So that option is out there. Have you seen, and I kind of feel like I'm wandering all over the place here, but I've got just some kind of building the picture. Let's say that there is, you know, there's talk of recession, there's talk of things slowing down. How does land perform in an economic downturn?  [00:09:12] Pete Reese: Yeah. You know, some of these rural areas, they didn't really skyrocket and, you know this kind of last jump in the real estate market. So they're a little bit more stable. They'd have risen some, but I'll tell you that there seems to be demand for good parcels. Now, that's one thing that I've learned, you know, over the second year in the business. Even if a property is cheap but it's just not a great piece of land. I don't buy it in the first place. There's a lot of, like you said, there's a lot of pieces of land that you really wouldn't wanna buy at any price. And a lot of the deals we turn down after they come across our desks because it's just, it's not a good piece of land. You know, when you look at like, as a buyer, would I want this property? Mm-hmm. and if it's got major issues, like it's all swamp or on the side of a mountain or if it's landlocked. I mean, a lot of these things, even if they're ultra sheep cheap, I don't wanna buy 'em cuz it's gonna be tough to resell. So Right. Sounds like a good piece of land and you can offer it at a good price. That's slightly B below market. Those buyers are definitely there.  [00:10:13] Sam Wilson: Got it. So what, so what are some things that define a good piece of land? I know you mentioned 10, you mentioned 10 acres. Obviously now we know not to buy on the side of a mountain or a swamp. People of those beams [00:10:27] Pete Reese: I mean, you know, they're buyers for those things too, but it's just not what I prefer to sell. Yeah, yeah. Like I said, you just have to get some of those things ultra cheap. I like the properties that are, have kind of a gentle topography, not too slow. I like properties that have road frontage and sometimes we buy some properties that have easement access, you know, where you cut through a neighbor's property. But as long as it's deeded and legal access and it's well defined, then, then I don't have a, uh, problem with it. Um, I also like, you know, properties that. You know, no wetlands or no FEMA flood zone. That's another consideration. Right? So, yeah, so those are kind, that's kind of the major checklist. And we try to, we try to buy properties that at least have the potential to build on. So we go through a whole checklist, you know, we're calling the county, the city, whoever it is, and, and just going through a whole checklist of questions that we ask them. We try. As much of a assurance from them that it, it's a potentially buildable property or we'll close on it, [00:11:30] Sam Wilson: Right, right. That makes sense. What's your typical cycle from under contract to when you officially buy it? How long does that take? I know you said Holden for about 60 days, but what's your due diligence cycle? On the front. [00:11:44] Pete Reese: Yeah. I mean, we try to buy 'em as quickly as possible, but the main holdup that we normally run into are the title searches. So it's the title company or the attorney that's doing the title search on the property. Those generally take a little bit of time, I mean, probably on average it's about 30 days. I would love to close 'em in two weeks if we could. Right. But you know, we're just waiting for that title work to come in most of the time. And you know, as soon as we get a property under contract, we've got this whole chain reaction of events that happen. You know, we get a photographer ordered to go out there or order this extra due diligence, you know, calling the county and the city and just a number of things that start happening. And then we compile that data as soon as we have 'em and just make sure everything's good and then move forward if it does.  [00:12:27] Sam Wilson: That was gonna my question, do you guys site visit every property? It sounds like with a photographer you do, but obviously you personally don't site visit every property. [00:12:35] Pete Reese: Yeah. Personally, I've only been to a few of the properties that we've ever owned and that was a road trip that we did last year. Is kind of a fun experience. But yeah, for the most part, I never see any of these properties on the ground.  [00:12:46] Sam Wilson: Wow, that's wild. So up until the point when you get it under contract, you've never actually physically set a site, or you know, if you can, I'm sure you can Google map it, but even then Oh yeah. A lot of your rural properties, maybe even that's not widely…. [00:12:59] Pete Reese: Yeah. We use a tool called map. Right. Which allows us to really get a lot of data on every parcel in the United States. I'm sure there, there are exceptions, but we get to see all kinds of satellite image data. We get to see overlays with fema, flood zones, wetlands and topography and a lot of other things. We could see the road frontage, so we could see a lot of that. It does. It's no substitute for sending someone out to the property and getting the boots on the ground. So we always send a photographer out and sometimes we've got a local broker agent that we're working with too that'll go out to the property for us as well. So we try to do that whenever we can. We always resell the properties with a local broker, and we kind of use them during the due diligence process and get their opinion on what the value of the property is or what the area's like. And then we re-list the property with. [00:13:48] Sam Wilson: I would imagine that you would want to use a broker or agent that has experience selling land, cuz it's a different thing to sell than, you know, a house or even, you know, warehouse or anything else.  [00:14:00] Pete Reese: Yep. We look for the top land brokers in the particular areas that we're working on and we try to work with them and we try to get as many deals as we can with them to make it a, you know, kind of a win-win deal. [00:14:11] Sam Wilson: Right. No, that makes a lot of sense. So lemme ask you this, Pete, you guys do all of your own transactions with in-house capital or do you guys use outside capital as well? At times?  [00:14:22] Pete Reese: Yeah, that's a really good question. For the most part, we do it all with our own cash. Now I have done two properties in the past where I've closed them with a partner. Mm-hmm. . And essentially in this land business, there are money partners available. And it's a situation where, you know, it's tough to get a bank loan for something like this. Like maybe it's available as an investor, but it's pretty tough. So what you do is, there are money partners out there and you bring the deal to them and they see the numbers and see how it's gonna work, and then they bring the money to the table. And then we split the profits when it all is said and done. So, I've done that on two properties so far out of about a hundred or so that we've completed flips on. And, it was a large dollar amount, it was $315,000. It was like a 600 acre property. So we ended up, Not quite doubling our money. We sold it for 5 95, but after closing costs and everything like that and a couple of other expenses, we netted, each of us netted about $108,000.  [00:15:29] Sam Wilson: Right. So, so you, so you could afford to take your wife out to dinner once at least?  [00:15:34] Pete Reese: Yeah. They're happy. My family was happy when I closed that one. I was excited too. But you know, when you look at the ROI on that, I mean, I brought the deal for sure. But I didn't, actually didn't put any of my money. Ended the deal at all and it still made hundred $8,000 on it. That's an infinite return on the infinite R O I [00:15:53] Sam Wilson: Right. Absolutely. Tell me about a deal gone bad deal gone bad. [00:15:57] Pete Reese: Well, knock on wood, I haven't lost money on any deal yet. Hmm. Any of these properties I bought, so. Okay. Kind of the worst percentage return on investment was right around 20. And that's how I howled it for, you know, something I had to hold for a while too, to get that 20% like 180 days, which is way longer than we normally do. But, you know, I guess a deal gone bad would be one that just took a lot of effort and I made hardly anything on it. And it was the first and only, uh, property that I bought that was landlocked 12 acre property. I thought this was such a great deal and picking up for $3,000 and I was like, how can I lose on this? I could sell it for 20,000, no problem. I tried to list it for that and tons of buyer interest, but no one understood the fact that it was landlocked and I explained it to him, put it, you know, it was a listing that way and everything, and, uh, so just a bunch of activity. Had to sort through the fellow of escrow a couple times. I think people just didn't really understand what it was and the limitations of what you could do with the property. Ended up selling it for, you know, five or six grand, something like that. So made money on it, you know, but it was just such a hassle and it was such a small amount of money. There was really kind of lesson learned, I guess. [00:17:14] Sam Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. And it just sounds like you'd never make the time back. The hassles, I mean, going with a couple times, monkey with the paperwork, going back and forth, I can only imagine. I know. Dozen, couple hours, thousand dollars. Yeah. You know what, but I've heard of, I've heard of a lot worse stories. You know, in the end, so let, let's assume it was a net wash even in the end, right? Like once you calculate your time, it's like, I've still heard a lot worse stories of like, oh, this is bad. And I lost, you know, half dollars. So I've heard that, oh yeah, yeah. That's it . No, no, absolutely no, and I think that's really, I think it's valuable though. I mean, to learn those lessons and to say, , you know, here's what not to buy, because I mean, that's, at some point you're gonna make those mistakes along the way. What about that property? I guess there was no easement to it. There was no deeded easement. There's no actual way to get to it. [00:18:04] Pete Reese: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it was, it was kind of in a really populated area.12 acres or so, kind of all these subdivisions and apartment complexes and things built all around it. I mean, you could easily walk onto the property, like through these lawns from these apartment complexes and stuff, but there was no deeded legal access to the property. So, you know, I was trying to market it as like, well start your own, you know, Frisbee golf course or , you know, like I don't know what you're gonna do with it, but it's 12 acres of woods, so I don't know. [00:18:39] Sam Wilson: Who knows. Wow, that's wild. Well, at least you unloaded that. Talk to me about entitling land and the term, as you put it, minor subdivisions. I'm really curious what a minor versus major subdivision is. [00:18:50] Pete Reese: Yeah. Well, there's two different things really. There's a minor subdivision, which is taking a property, splitting it into five parcels or less. In most areas, they consider that a minor subdivision. And a lot of these areas, it's pretty simple. You hire a surveyor, they'll survey the property, split it up. Five parcels and then you record it with the county, right? And that's it. So then we take a larger property and then we sell it off individually because you know, say we get. 50 acre parcel and we split it up into five 10 acre parcels. Then we sell off the 10 acres individually to individual buyers cuz we can get a higher price per acre and a higher return on investment. So we do that. Sometimes that's a good strategy. Doesn't take too long. Then there's another entitlement, kind of land major subdivision type thing that we get into sometimes. So some properties are perfectly positioned. They would, it would be perfect for a residential subdivision. So generally what we'll do, cuz kind of the beginning stages, just to kind of enhance marketability. So we know it's zoned, right? We know it has the right utilities, it has everything available for a subdivision, but we don't wanna actually, you know, get the bulldozers out there and put in this, the roads and the site. We don't wanna do any of that stuff. So what we do is we hire an engineer, they draw up potentially what it could be. You know, how many potential lots here based off of the zoning. Where the roads would go in this community, and then we list it with a commercial broker and we'll just position it as what could be. Right. You know, and a lot of times these developers or builders, they're gonna have their own ideas of what they want to do with the land. They've got their own teams to do all this stuff, so, We just generally kind of market it as like, Hey, this, this could be a great subdivision for your company. You can move forward with that. So we've done that in a number of cases and uh, it's worked out really well.  [00:20:35] Sam Wilson: So you're not actually going through the entitlement process. You are just simply giving up or not giving up, but producing potential. Hey, that's right. This is, this is what this could look like. Do what you want. But I wanna let you know that the possibility exists on this parcel to do something like this. [00:20:52] Pete Reese: Exactly. It helps the commercial broker kind of present it to the market, right? So they can, you know, talk to their potential buyers as well. And, you know, it actually is a different way to create value.  [00:21:05] Sam Wilson: Absolutely. No, that's really cool. Pete, I have thoroughly enjoyed the show today. Thank you for taking the time to come on and share with us your journey. It sounds like, you know, you've done a lot of things in real estate over the last 22, going on 23 years, But it sounds like this is the one that you're having the most fun with, I would imagine. [00:21:23] Pete Reese: Oh yes. A lot of fun. A lot of fun. And you know, I like deals, you know, I like buying and selling. Creating value it's almost like a mini game, right? It is a game, you know… [00:21:34] Sam Wilson: Absolutely. Very, very cool. Pete, thank you for coming on the show today. If our listeners wanna get in touch with you and learn more about you, what is the best way to do that?  [00:21:41] Pete Reese: Yeah, that would be heading over to turningprofit.com and that's a website. I've got monthly income reports where I share everything that's going on with our land business, how much profit we made that month. Each deal, we break down individually and show you what we learned, what went well, what maybe didn't go as well. And maybe if you've got any interest in land flipping, that's a good place to start.  [00:22:06] Sam Wilson: Fantastic, Pete, thank you again for coming on today. I do appreciate it.  [00:22:10] Pete Reese: Well, thanks so much, Sam. Really appreciate it here.

STRA Episode 17:  How to Deal With Slow Season [00:00:00] [00:00:05] Hey everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. We are John n Wendy Williams with the Short-term Rental Authority, your authority on all things short-term rental related to help make you the best operator ever. And today we are going to be talking about how to deal with slow season. Yeah. [00:00:27] I wanna feel like a a, the majority of us are probably dealing with slow season right now. Being the time of year it is. And being in the northern hemisphere, right? Yes. But his chili, hence the Christmas sweater. Yes. Which is hilarious, by the way. So if you're listening to this on the audio and you wanna see Wendy's, well, Christmas sweater, go check it out on YouTube. [00:00:48] It's over there and you can see it. See it in, all of it's, it's fabulous. So, , there's that. . But yeah, so slow season. How do we deal with slow season? How do we deal with slow season? Well, so I think it would be important to talk about maybe what is slow season and. , if you are just getting started, how do you know when your slow season is? [00:01:18] Right? So in this business it's rare that, well, it just never happens. You're not gonna make the same amount every month. It's not like long-term rentals. It's much more like a seasonal type business. And we say seasonal, we don't mean. Winter, spring, summer, and fall , right? We mean January, February, March, April, may, you have 12 seasons. [00:01:40] Actually, it's seasonal by month. Every month is a little different. And for us, just as an example in, in the Charlotte market, June, July, August are our best month. So it's, it's summer. People are traveling, especially the customer type. We serve families with children and pet. [00:02:00] There's a lot more of those during the summer and then September for us, it kind of drops off a cliff a little bit, mainly because people go back to school. [00:02:10] Right. That wasn't true during Covid, by the way. That's true. That's there was no school. That's true. So September wasn't actually a slow season for us. Yeah, during that time, but during normal times. September, it falls off October. It's not that great. November, it picks up a little bit because we have, you know, the Thanksgiving holiday and some holiday stuff going on in December. [00:02:29] We have some holiday stuff going on, so it's a little better, but then again in January it drops off and in fact, January is probably our worst month every year. I would say that's true. For similar reasons. Everybody's now back from winter break and they've gone back to work and gone back to school and the holidays are over and they've spent all their money. [00:02:47] Right? , so that's January. And then, you know, gradually as spring approaches, it gets a little better. And then we have this great summer, right? So we know what's coming because we've been in the market for a while. We know it's coming. Every January is gonna be the way it is. Every July is gonna be the way it is. [00:03:04] And so we've had to adapt and deal with it. And this is just the story of how we've been able to do it. And by the way, it's not, it's, those aren't always the same months as you were alluding to. So we have people that we've coached then, for example, Phoenix, Arizona. Where it's exactly the opposite. [00:03:22] Their slow season is summer because it's a thousand degrees there. Right. As hot as Hades. Right. And their, their high season is actually more winter. Right. Because that's where people go to escape from winter . Right, right. So they have like a snowbird season and all that. Right. So it, and depending on your market, your, your months might be reversed from us, might be different whatever. [00:03:44] But it's important to realize where you currently. And what you're anticipating coming up in the next 12 months. Right? So how do you, how do you predict that if you are going into a new market? That would be a, a good question. Like you, [00:04:00] you, or either you're just getting started, right? So one of those, one of the ways you can do it, frankly, is talk to other operators in your area. [00:04:07] And and they'll be able to tell you. Okay. Yeah, because we could tell you that here in Charlotte, July is a great month. J January is not right. That's, that's a very valid way of doing it. If you want to use more of like a data tool, that's something that an air DNA is good for. So we've talked about air DNA before in, in some depth and how it can be useful and it can be not useful depending on how you. [00:04:34] but that is the, one of the things that I find it to be pretty accurate on is at least the trend. So you can see, oh yes, July's a high month, January's a low month, and you can kind of see that trend graph and you can get an idea of, okay, here's my high season, here's my low season probably for what I'm doing in any particular area. [00:04:55] And that's in the seasonality tab. If you're on air dna. It's actually right at the top. Is it? There's no tab for it. It's, it's right at the top and it'll say, it'll have some generic statistics about your area, and one of those is a graph that shows you not only high and low resume, but high and low occupancy for the year. [00:05:15] And that's even if you're not using the free version. So you just put your zip code in and it'll tell you for that zip code, here's the, OR city. You could put Charlotte in and it'll tell you for that city or town what the trend is. So that's. You can get that free. Yes. So that is free data information. [00:05:34] Yeah. And then you have to, if you want the actual numbers, you have to pay for it. But as we've discussed before, the actual numbers aren't usually correct anyway. So, and if you're just looking for the seasonality, you don't need to pay for it. So that's, that's a data driven way to go say, okay, what's high season? [00:05:52] What flow season? So you wouldn't go to the seasonality tab, I don't think there is a seasonality tab. Oh. There used to be, didn't [00:06:00] there? There is, yeah. I mean, I just went over it with the, with one of our students. Oh, I don't know. I never, I never go to that tab. Really? Oh, I go there all the time. Oh, okay. [00:06:10] Yeah. Well, it's right at the top. You don't need to, oh, I didn't know that. I always play the seasonality tab. . Okay, well, perhaps, maybe there's a tab and I just haven't done it. Right. But there you go. But that, that is a data driven way to go figure. Just realize that the actual number it gives you, you take that with a grain of salt, right? [00:06:30] But you can see the trend, right? That, but that's really what you're looking for is. If I, if I know that in advance, then I can prepare myself. Right. So what are, what are some of the ways that you can prepare yourself for that that you know is coming your, the winter is coming, right? , right? What's that? [00:06:53] Maybe game it Throne for show. Thank you. Yeah, it's. Not Game of Throne. Is it? Game of Thrones? It is Game of Thrones. Yeah. Winter is coming. Winter is coming. Ugh. It was the best show ever. But anyway. So how do you prepare yourself If you know that winter is coming, what do you do about it? So, well, first of all, knowledge is power, right? [00:07:14] So even knowing that you are ahead of the game I think a another way to prepare yourself for that would be to get your money in order. And the way that we get our money in order is by using a money management system called Profit First. Mm-hmm. . And it's based on a book called Profit First. Profit First to Buy Michael Michael Witz. [00:07:43] And there's a. And because nobody can spell his last name. That's Macit is his last name. Oh, macit. Yes. Yes. But if you go to mike motorbike.com. Mike motorbike.com That's right. You can, you can find his information there as well. Yeah. So it's a, it's a great book and it's a, it's a good system. [00:08:00] Yeah. So, so the, the Profit first system is, It's kind of like the envelope system. [00:08:08] If you follow, what's his name? Dave Ramsey. Dave Ramsey. But it's for your business. So you allocate a certain percentage of all your money that comes in, right? So all your money that comes in from all the different OTAs, you got Airbnb, vrbo, and drug bookings, or wherever your money comes from. All goes into the centralized account and then you divvy it out. [00:08:34] A certain percentage goes in this account, a certain percentage goes in this account, a certain percentage goes in this account. So you, you have some money divvied up into all the, the different accounts, if you will. So mm-hmm. . So it's really a, it's a cash flow management system and it's designed to, basically work with human behavior. [00:08:58] Cuz what we tend to do is when we, when we need to spend on something, we go to our checking account, we look at it and say, is there money in there? ? If the answer is yes, we buy the thing and if there's not, we don't buy the thing, right? The problem is, if you only have the one account, there's money in there that should be allocated for other. [00:09:18] and just because it's in there doesn't mean that it's available for spending on this new thing. Right? So the whole idea is your, each account has a purpose. So there's one account that's just for the things that are involved with the unit. Meaning it could be your mortgage, your rent it's your utilities, it's your insurance. [00:09:36] It's, it's all those things. And we actually call that our unit support, unit support account. Yep. Because that's really what it is. And if you read the book, that's, they're gonna call it your op opex account op Short for Operating Expenses. Yes. So it's, it's the count where most things come out of. [00:09:52] Right? And the key to figuring out, well, okay, what percentage do I put in that account is to start to [00:10:00] look at your business, not on a month to month basis, but start looking at it on a yearly basis. Right. So you need to look at, on a 12 month basis, on average, how much of income do I spend on keeping the units running right? [00:10:17] And that's gonna come up to a percentage on a yearly basis, and it's probably gonna be somewhere around 70%, somewhere around there. Meaning if you bring in 10 grand, you're probably spending seven to keep the unit up and running. On an average basis. Right. But what that means is in July, you actually are putting more money in that account than you need to. [00:10:41] At least for us, because that's our high season, because our income's higher, but our expenses stay about the same. Mm-hmm. . But then in January what happens is that extra money is there because on average is an average, and it means we actually solved a January's cashflow problem back in July. . Right. So that's actually the key where you get, where I see people get stuck and they say, oh, please help is this time of year they say, Hey, I've got no money. [00:11:10] I've got no bookings. Right? What am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? Well, and it's hard to fix that problem now because it actually needed to be fixed for five months ago. Yep. Right? And so it's that cash management system and looking at your business on an annual. and coming and coming up with those percentages accurately, that will help you actually survive slow season. [00:11:37] So slow season for us isn't that big a deal because, well, we prepared for it back in July. Right, right. And that's just having a system in place of bank accounts and each account having a purpose. Right. Well, I mean that that helps you. The, the sooner you get started, the sooner that will be helpful. Yes, that's true. [00:11:59] Right. [00:12:00] So, so when should you start doing that? Immediately. Yesterday? Yes. I mean, even if you are going through a, a rough patch, a slow season, then you know, you still should go ahead and, and start that, that managing your money that way because it will help. And the, in the next low season. Right. So Right. [00:12:25] And there's a lot to say about that. That's not meant to be a whole get started ASAP explaining how to do that. No, but that's not, there's a more to it, but Profit first is the, maybe we should do a whole nother podcast. We probably should. That's a really good idea. Yeah. Cause we could talk about that for an hour. [00:12:39] I think so, for sure. Yeah. Excellent. So that's one way that you. You know, navigate through the, through the slow season. And I, I think that another way to to help you through that is not just managing your money, but also managing your calendar as well. Mm-hmm. and you are the master at calendar management. [00:13:07] So, and, and what I mean by that, A lot of times the, the way that we get through those January and February months is by getting longer bookings. Right. And that seems like a, oh, we'll just go get longer bookings. Right. Well, how do I do that? Right. Right. That comes to the question, you know, because you're the master at Yeah. [00:13:34] It's partially canor management and it's partially again, knowing your financials. So this is one of those things when. What you really need to know is what does a night cost you? Oh man, this is a golden nugget. So what we were talking about earlier is, hey, you know, my expenses are this. Well, if you take those expenses, meaning everything that it costs to have that unit, if nobody even stays there, [00:14:00] meaning you still gotta pay rent, right? [00:14:01] You still gotta pay mortgage, you still gotta pay utilities, you still gotta pay insurance. You still got software you're paying for probably. Netflix, YouTube, you know, whatever you pay on a monthly basis. So it doesn't include cleaning because that only occurs if somebody stays and that's passed through expense anyway, but includes all those things. [00:14:20] And then what you do is as a very rough thing you can do is divide that by 30. Cause that's how many average days there are in a month, right? So say I had. A place that you know, my rent's 1500 and I've got another, you know, $300, $400 worth of expenses. Let's just call it $500 worth of expenses. So I can make the, the math easy. [00:14:42] That would be $2,000. So 1500 in rent, another 500 in expenses, $2,000 that I would take and divide by 30. And now I know, okay, this place costs me x amount of dollars per day or per. . Right? And that's important to know because when I go to price, what I in high season is easy because you're just gonna get it booked anyway. [00:15:06] In slow season. What I really need to know is how low can I go and how, how, how much of a discount can I give? How, how much can I mark this place down? And that, that's actually the most important number. Because the first rule is don't lose money . That's what, so if I know what a night costs me, then I also know what it costs me if it's vacant. [00:15:27] And I also know what I'm making if I sell it. And I'm even willing to sell it at cost to avoid losing the, so say it costs me $50 a night to have the place, I'd rather sell it for 50, then not sell it at all. Right. And that's one of those things that happens in slow season cuz you were alluding to calendar management. [00:15:46] Okay. Yeah, I'm getting some bookings, but it's only the weekends. So I'm getting Friday and Saturday booked. This is a very common thing. Oh man. But I can't seem to sell Monday through Thursday, and even though you're making money on Friday and Saturday, you're [00:16:00] losing it all by these days sitting vacant. [00:16:03] So what you really need to do is figure out a way to, okay, how can I take this money that I'm making on the weekend and defend it by at least selling the other days at. and that's the, the mindset that you need to have coming in. And and what'll get in the way of that is ego and pride because you'll say, well, my place should rent for, well, it's not right. [00:16:26] Everybody else in the market is getting, but they're not . Right? So you got an, how low can I go is a really important number to know. Yeah. So that when the bookings that you do get that are profitable, you can actually. . And then the other thing that I do is I simply prevent people from booking weekends a certain number of days out. [00:16:48] So if you can figure out what your average lead time is. Ooh, this is another good nugget. Say so. So say somebody. When you get bookings, typically they come within say, 10 days this time of year. So people are booking, this is very common. It's empty. They book kind of last minute. , you know, you don't sell it for a lot because it was last minute, right? [00:17:11] So what we do, what I do with the calendar then is, okay, within 10 days is our metric. So within 10 days, I start allowing people to book one and two nights stays, meaning they can book a weekend, but anything beyond 10 days, they have to book at least three nights. And what that does is it keeps my weekends open. [00:17:31] So that that last minute person that's booking that actually wants a week or two or a month can book it because my calendar's open. Yes. Because I didn't sell a weekend a month ago. Right. For, you know, something and now I'm scrambling, scrambling to try to sell the rest of these empty days that are hard to sell. [00:17:54] Right, right. So that's how you get longer bookings being, knowing how low you can. [00:18:00] and then having, having the calendar available so that they can actually book it. And we get quite a few of those. We got a couple yesterday. Yep, we sure did. That will take us through December, January and February. So you can do that by using a tool? [00:18:14] Yeah. So we use a tool that's Price Labs. We talked about price slab before, and that's just an example of, you know, there's a difference between having price labs. Knowing how to use it to your advantage. So it's an expert tool that you then need to use expertly, and that's not all of it. There's some other things I do in there, but that's, that's the basics of it. [00:18:35] If you just did those two things, if you knew how low you could go and got there for the days that were harder to sell, and if you did a little calendar management so that you avoided those weekends being booked so far in advance, then you then now you've got a. You've got a shot at not losing money. [00:18:55] Not losing money, and actually being profitable during slow season. It's never gonna be as good as high season. But remember, I'm looking at this from a 12 month perspective, and what I'm really doing is trying to at, at the very least, defend the profit that we made in July. because I overall will be profitable for the year. [00:19:16] Right? Because we, because this is a revenue business. It's a revenue business, right? Yeah. So, and, and that's a really great mindset to have is okay, well, not so much what is my, my occupancy rate and my, my average daily rate? It's, it's those two things combined , it's, it's all of that combined. in a a 12 month period. [00:19:43] Right. So just like when I was talking about, okay, I've got a weekend booked, I'm willing to sell the rest of the week at cost just to defend my profit on the weekend. Mm-hmm. , you can expand that out in your mind to, okay, I got July booked. Right. I'm willing to give January [00:20:00] away at cost. so that I'd keep the profit from July. [00:20:03] That's a really great analogy. Right. So I'm just looking at it on a bigger scale, right? Yeah, yeah. But well, that's huge. I mean, and combine that with your profit First money management system, right? And all of a sudden now it's. Kind of becomes more stress free. Right. Well, you know, another thing to think about in, in the, in the low season is, is your listing. [00:20:29] And it's, oh, that's a good point. It's really easy for most people to get booked in in the high season, whatever your high season is. Yeah. Everybody's book, regardless of, of are you the best listing out there. But in the low season, That's where it really becomes apparent with an important to make sure that number one, you have really great design and if you need help with that, please let me know because I can help you to, to have really great design and then to have really great photography. [00:21:06] Cell phone pictures will not do it right, so you have to have good pictures, but then you have to have. Something for the photographer to take a picture of . Right, right. I mean, it can't just be like your secondhand stuff and thrown together. It needs to look professionally designed with professional photos and really. [00:21:35] Speaking to that customer. We've said this over and over and over again, is who is your target customer? Speak to them. Have your title. That is something that they value, right? Fully fenced in backyard, pet friendly, whatever close to the airport. Gig wifi. [00:22:00] Gig wifi. I mean, desk workspace is whatever your customer wants. [00:22:03] Whatever. I mean, whatever your customer, whatever speaks to your customer, have that in your title and make sure that you showcase those things in your pictures, especially. The first five pictures, those are so important. So yeah, we talked a lot about that in the last episode, but oh my gosh. So go back and listen to the listing review and, and we'll, we'll, yeah, we'll tell you all of those little details that, that you need to be, but it, in the slow season, it will become even more apparent if you don't have those things. [00:22:38] Have you thought about why I think. because people there, there aren't as many people traveling to your area in the slow season. And those people are, the people that are traveling are pickier. Well, they can be pickier, right? Because they can be. Yes. The the, it's a supply and demand. Yes, it is the supply. [00:23:04] So demand goes down, but supply stays the same. Correct. Which means that there's less people book. And they're gonna book all the best places first. Yes. And you need to be one of those best places. Right. Which means pictures, design and pricing. Those three things. Target customer and target customer. Yes. [00:23:22] Yeah. I mean, I, we, we cannot preach on it too much. Yeah. Because there are so many people out there that aren't doing that. And then they come to us saying, why am I not getting booked? And I'm like, my very first question is, who are you serving? I don't know. everybody. No. Who designed this? I did. I did. [00:23:43] Right. Who took the pictures? I did with my cell phone. I did. Right. And, and that actually ends up becoming the problem. Yep. Right? Yep. We see it all the time. So, so those are, are some really great tips and to help you navigate [00:24:00] the, the slow season. Number one. Do the, the. Go to Air DNA and that is free data to figure out and identify when slow season is. [00:24:11] When the slow season is right. And then do, start your profit of first money management, cash flow management system right now. Do that right now. Think about how low you can go so that you can, you know, sell those nights at cost if you have to. And then manage your calendar, like John was talking about. [00:24:33] Mm-hmm. , did I forget something? Marketing. Marketing. Just the last part. We talking about market. The, the pictures, the marketing. You know, this is the time that you need to be good at it. and you don't have to be good at it during high season. Right, right. And then you get, you, you realize what you're doing wrong when slow season comes wrong, [00:24:50] Right. So true. So avoid that if at all possible. And if you're you're currently in that situation, fix it. And if you need help with that, give us a call. That's what we do. Yeah, we do. We, we offer coaching. We do, you know, listing reviews. We will help you with your pricing. You know, we do design and, and set up and design whatever you need to help make you the best operator ever. [00:25:15] There you go. Here at the short term rental authority, , right? And if you need advice on Christmas sweater, you can ask Wendy. She has really great test taste in them. Thank you. Thank you very much. It's a lama. I know. It is. And it even has a. It has a tail on the back. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. I think it's fabulous. [00:25:35] I love ugly Christmas sweaters. Plus, they're so comfy, . They are. They are. Well, we hope you found some value in this episode and you also like. Ugly Christmas sweaters. If you do, we really, really, really want to see pictures of those in our Facebook group. So go ahead and post those in the Facebook group and become a member of our Facebook group, a short term loan authority. [00:25:57] We are doing a a [00:26:00] cash flow 1 0 1 board game tomorrow night. If you are local, please come and see us and come play the Cash 1 0 1 board game with us. Yeah, we do that the last Thursday, or last Wednesday. Wednesday of the month. Yes. Last Wednesday. Every month of every month. Yes. Because by the time you hear this episode, we'll have already done this weeks [00:26:17] Sorry, but last Wednesday of every month in Charlotte there's a meetup group for it. It's called Charlotte Cash Flow 1 0 1. It's called Cash 1 0 1. Cash 1 0 1 Meetup. Yes. And that's on meetup.com. All right, cool. Check us out. So come check us out and we'll see you again next time. Onto the next. Onto the next. [00:26:36]

Mind Strength Balance focuses on issues of thought, growth, and identity, and is owned by Lincoln Stoller, PhD, CHt, CCPCPr. Lincoln has experience in science, business, project management, teaching, biofeedback training, and hypnotherapy. PhD: Quantum Many-body Theory, U. of Texas, Austin CHt: Hypnotherapist, Int'l Medical and Dental Hypnotherapy Assn. CCPCPr: Clinical Counsellor, Canadian College of Professional Counsellors and Psychotherapists He has expanded our knowledge in quantum physics, astronomy, aeronautics, statistics, computation, education, psychology, education, counselling, and neuroscience. His passions include mountaineering, diving, piloting, writing, building community, making toys, composing music, and creating relationships. Connect with Lincoln here: https://www.mindstrengthbalance.com/contact/ Introduction to this episode. 0:00 Lincoln's Introduction. 0:43 Where do you see the evidence of evolution coming from? 2:31 What is mind expansion? What does it look like? 8:08 How do you get from a diagnosis to fun? 14:05 Shamanic wisdom is not a medicine. 23:43 The shaman is like a Cheshire cat. 29:26 How do you keep from going off the rails when working with other people? 35:30 The shamanic model is not there yet. 40:48 What happens when you go into trance of guided meditation? 46:18 How does one obtain true peace? 51:20 Intro Guy 0:00 Your journey has been an interesting one up to hear you've questioned so much more than those around you. You've even questioned yourself as to how you could have grown into these thoughts. Am I crazy? When did I begin to think differently? Why do people in general you're so limited thought process Rest assured, you are not alone. The world is slowly waking up to what you already know inside yet can't quite verbalize. Welcome to the spiritual dough podcast, the show that answers the question you never even knew to ask, but knew the answers to questions about you this world the people in it? Most importantly, how do I proceed now moving forward? We don't even have all the answers but we sure do love living in the question. Time for another hit of spiritual dub with your host Brandon Handley. Let's get right into today's episode. Brandon Handley 0:43 Hey there spiritual dope. I'm on here today with Lincoln Stoller. He is a mind strength, balanced, focused personality who is he's got his PhD ch T. You got a bunch of initials all you know what they all stand for. But he's got experience in science, business project management, teaching biofeedback training, and hypnotherapy. Scott, his PhD in quantum many body theory out of the University of Texas in Austin. If can hypnotherapists international medical and dental hypnotherapy Association and also clinical counselor or the Canadian college of professional counselors and psychotherapist Lincoln, thanks for being on today. I know that you reached out to me just to kind of pop on and have a conversation, I guess around the psychedelic realm. Right? Yeah, appreciate it. Yeah. And look, I mean, it's actually kind of funny. I, one of my, one of my clients was out of the University of Texas in Austin, once upon a time. So small world, small world. So I usually like to start this off with the whole idea that, you know, you and I were just basically conduits for universal energy, right? It is flowing through us at all times. And like we kind of, we were just expressing life energy one way or another. And when we have this conversation, you and I, you and I are talking to each other. We think we know what we're talking about to each other. But the person listening is listening, they're hearing something totally different, right? And there's a message that can only be delivered through you today to that person and listening. What is that message that's coming through today like Lincoln Stoller 2:31 that we're part of an evolving system that's bigger than we are? In your little intro there. I would say I'm also talking or always feel like I'm talking to the culture, a kind of really amorphous being that's made up of all our little minds. And I don't know what it's hearing. I'd like to think it's hearing better, but I'm not sure it is. Brandon Handley 3:00 Not fair enough. I love it when talking to the culture. That's a mind shift right there. Right, just kind of right off the bat. And I really, I appreciate that. And in terms of like, evolving, and, and whatnot, where do you where do you think you'll see evidence for that? Because that's something that's been rattling around in my mind recently, is that every culture, every society thinks at the pinnacle of it. So where do you believe you see the evidence of evolution? Lincoln Stoller 3:37 Well, I think evolution is easier to redefine than define. So I would redefine it as a feedback process where a system tries to optimize itself, I think the best example is a fungus, you know, a fungus or a mold, I think, unfortunately, cultures, humans and otherwise, reach somewhat blindly toward opportunity. And then they get burned. And hopefully, they learned they usually don't, that's the sad part. And as individuals, I think we do much better a total individual focused guy, you know, really like to the point of anarchy, basically, I think individuals contribute the main force of culture. And then, of course, we're immersed in it, you know, it's the soup where we're boiled in. I think, you know, just as I assume, in fact, most of the listeners would agree with me that we're kind of on the edges of culture, or the boundaries if you want to be more, you know, self satisfied about it. The forward boundary, put it that way, and make us all happy. And we might be leading culture, although I'm not even sure leading and trailing is fair. But the psychedelics the, you know, the old Terence McKenna, I don't know he wasn't here. his idea, the, you know, the stoned monkey idea. And also there's the 100th Monkey idea, which I think could both be debunked fairly, literally, but taken figuratively, you know, the more of us who expand our minds, the more the culture will expand. It's whatever it is mind, consciousness, awareness. So I, I think, and this is my whole story about, you know, becoming enlightened and becoming able, it's an uphill battle, because you're gaining, you know, breadth and depth in the context that lacks that. It could be a personal context or cultural, legal, social, you know, all that stuff. So right now, we're expanding, and the listeners are expanding to. I mean, as you said, it was a mind shift. And that's what I'd say, is the most useful mind shift. Whatever problems you're having as an individual, are not entirely yours. And whatever advances you make are not entirely yours, either. They're shared. Brandon Handley 6:13 Just so you know, kind of like this. I love the edges of the culture, but as a culture as what was what was young saying? Lincoln Stoller 6:24 A lot of stuff, what do you Brandon Handley 6:28 call? What he's the, you know, the collective conscious? Yeah, right. Is that? Is that kind of what you're talking to? Lincoln Stoller 6:39 I don't know. I think, you know, Jung was almost 100 years ago, I think we've, I think we have to do better than that. But I think it's collective unconscious, collective conscious. I don't know who speaks for it. I think, you know, sort of like these pseudo pods reach out. You know, I'm teaching my son who's 11 Something about history. And I keep coming back. And we all keep coming back to German fascism. And how insane that was, but it keeps happening. You know, he wasn't the last he wasn't the first. And before he became our enemy, he was our friend. And, you know, he came from a culture that is our culture. And it was less than 100 years ago, and it's scary. So here, we now take psychedelics. And you know, to put it in the most dire framework, we still have a world filled with Hitler's and Stalin's, but now they're called Putin and whatever. And now put those guys on psychedelics. And holy shit. I come a little concerned. Brandon Handley 7:50 I mean, right. It's, I think putting people who have let power kind of already go to their their heads and put them on psychedelics. It's be definitely be an interesting trip, to say the least. But um, let's talk real quick, though to like, I mean, as you're talking about, like edges of culture, leading culture or or trailing it, right? It also just, engines have thrown the words expansion in there, too. It just always makes me think of like the edges of the universe, right. And we're kind of writing we are creating, that we are the edge of the universe, right? We are that edge of the culture that's continually growing and expanding. And to that end is, is that the mind when you talk about mind expansion? I'm just kind of curious even what you mean by mind expansion, right? Like, yeah, I could say What's that look like to you? Lincoln Stoller 8:52 I think it is, has to be seen broadly, that there's a mind body that, you know, a good aspect of who we are stored in our body, in terms of how we think what we think how we react, what we are alert to it stored in our memory, again, in terms of how we react and associate the things. If you put it all together, that makes a mind. I'm not entirely reductionist, though I think I sound that way. But I'm trying to break things into pieces that are that I can swallow. And I fully recognize that some of these pieces don't fully disconnect. So like mind and body, you can't really tell them apart. They're constantly talking to each other and influencing each other. And one of the most effective ways to look at us and mind in general. I mean, there are many, but one that I keep coming back to his intellect versus a motion. Where intellect can be reasonable and rational, deductive inferential kinds of the stuff. And emotion is very different. It's almost always holistic and vague and so forth. And our culture doesn't still doesn't give a lot of respect to emotions. You know, they say, yeah, you can be emotional, a great actor, great presence charismatic, but you've got to translate it into, you know, intellect, logic reason. And that just doesn't work, especially in the realm of psychedelics, and in the realm of dreams and trance. You know, sometimes you can get it, but not always. Brandon Handley 10:44 Yeah, even even in the spiritual space, right? And things spiritual, right? Trying to translate that feeling, the sense of knowing into something that somebody will accept, right, is very challenging. I like the idea of, you know, the intellect versus the emotion. And the other piece where you say, you know, there's some of these things don't connect the body mind. And it makes me think of build disconnect is what makes me think of how other cultures outside of Western cultures, they don't have separate words for body in mind, they don't have separate words for heart and mind. Right? It's when you get to the Western Western culture that we separate that so we've made some type of separation forcibly, through by accident, by our choice of how we speak. Right, right. So trying to reintegrate that is a challenge. How are you seeing that? You know, what are you doing for your clients, I guess, to to help them get connected to or recognize that they are connected? And that it's okay. Lincoln Stoller 11:56 Well, it's a little complicated, because different clients have different barriers, I would say, you know, forgive me for, again, being somewhat reductive, but there are different answers to the question. So, you know, some of the kinds of clients I would characterize, are the confused people who know, they're confused. The conflicted people who don't know whose problem this is, and are trying to figure it out. And then, you know, there are the people who so monetize their problem. And it manifests as a physical ailment. And they're very interesting. And they're also difficult, because unless you're a doctor, which I'm not, I'm dealing with the mind, and I'm trying to get back at the body back to the body. So what I do with people, I mean, I think the first thing you do is to establish some trust, doesn't have to be deep trust doesn't have to be you know, whatever, just whatever it is, there's a level of trust, you work it to some viable point. Maybe it's intellectual, maybe it's emotional, cultural, whatever. And then I basically try to get them out of their heads. Because this whole intellectual approach, pretty much you know, people have reached, we're good at it. We're good at being intellectuals. That's the western model. And if progress has stalled, it's probably not because of lack of intellectualism. It's probably because too much intellectualism, too much, you know, not enough spiritual, emotional, experiential stuff. So I try to get people out of their heads. And you do that by either reminding them of what's important that they're suppressing, or confusing them to the point where they stop trying to, you know, intellectualize anything. Brandon Handley 14:04 That's like a colon. Lincoln Stoller 14:07 Yeah, but more directly as a trance. I mean, that's what hypnotherapy is about. You take them into a realm where the CO on becomes real. You know, so you do try to get away from even language. So not just poetry, closer to music, or rhythm, or emotion, emotion or body feeling. So getting them into that. That's where I find progress. At least for people who are looking for progress. Some people are looking for fun, which is fine. But even if you're looking for fun, I think progress can be fun. You know, I'm not even defining fun is not so easy, either. Brandon Handley 14:50 Right? Right, right. I think that in when you mentioned that there's not enough spiritual, emotional and experiential. Sometimes. I think fun and play are a couple of things that are right are certainly missing and allow for a reconnection to the body get into that flow state. And and when we let loose, right, and quite literally let loose your brain releases releases that tension and whatever else is kind of stored up in there. Yeah, right, you're in a totally different space. Yeah, I can, I can see that for sure. Lincoln Stoller 15:24 So imagine, you get a client, and they have a problem. And they're focused on the problem, or they have a diagnosis, and they're broken the diagnosis. So how do you get from a diagnosis to fun? You know, and I think that's a serious question, because learning doesn't go very far. If it's not fun, right? I mean, if you have to learn and it hurts every time, should you know that's not a great learning environment. So how do you get somebody who has cancer? To get to fun? And you say, that's impossible. That's ridiculous. But it's not exactly if you sort of redefined fun as empowerment, progress, control, hope, you know, things that uplift you. I mean, maybe they don't make you laugh. But, you know, a really empowered person could laugh, even in the worst circumstances. Personal maybe that's kind of hopeful. But Brandon Handley 16:21 the the possibility does exist? I think so. Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, let's talk about like, you know, how did you, you know, how did you get into the psychedelic space of this, this whole thing, right, like, I know that you've got a wide varied past, covers a lot of different ground. But one of the things we're gonna chat about today is, again, the kind of the self psychedelics and this both spiritual and mental health aspects. Lincoln Stoller 16:48 Well, I didn't come as a healer. I came into it as an adventurer, I'd say I came into everything I did as an adventurer. And the thing that differentiates an adventurer is that we are reckless. Because we were looking for adventure. We're not looking for answers. We're not looking for accolades. We're really fed by adventure. So I started as a mountaineer, which is very adventurous. And then I got into physics, which is pretty adventurous, especially if you do it as in a rebellious way, like I did have everybody throw you out of their class, because you asked too many questions. You know, and that that's very sobering. At first you think, oh, you know, they think they think I'm a jerk, do they think I'm wrong, that I can't follow the program. And it takes a long time to realize the benefit of not fitting in, in a field where there's progress to be made. Maybe in some fields, like, I don't want to, these are fields, I don't know anything about dentistry, but welding X, I do know something about welding, you know, structural engineering, maybe those are fields where you don't want to be an explorer, or at least, you don't want to be held accountable for your mistakes. But in most things, you do have to be held accountable for your mistakes, and you have to be able to make mistakes. You know, a good Explorer is careful, but curious. So my initial explorations and psychedelics were as many in the underground are, you know, you I did not do it recklessly as a teenager, I didn't even start doing it in earnest until I was probably close to 40. And I did it through the ceremonial things, you know, mostly Ayahuasca ceremonies and the derivatives of those indigenous things. And some of the spiritual stuff that came out of acelin Like, sensory deprivation and the pasta meditation and stuff like that. So those were explorations. Brandon Handley 19:12 And yeah, you know, so you you didn't, you didn't you didn't come across it to you know, initially for like, spiritual awakening or any of this other stuff. It's just kind of like, Hey, here's this give it a shot. Well, you know, what do you think kind of thing? Oh, well, little. Lincoln Stoller 19:36 No, no, not quite like that. It was more like I want to find out what's over there. It was more curiosity than Brandon Handley 19:43 that. Yeah. What was leading that what were you looking for? Well, that's Lincoln Stoller 19:47 what I didn't know. But like all these people were talking about enlightenment and spiritual cosmic consciousness. And I'm saying, Well, I don't know what that is. I I live in a circumscribed you know, Western world where were the questions are, you know, in the back of the textbook? And now you're telling me that it's, you know, all around me? Well, you know, first thing you you hit you hit on religion, which says, you know, get down on your knees because God is looking at you all the time. And I'm saying, Well, I don't see him or her, or them. And let's go find them. You know, why not? You know, it's like going into the wilderness, all the animals flee. So what if, you know, the Divine is doing that too. They see you coming? And they say, Oh, God, here's another, another, you know, environmentally rapacious, moron. And, and you smile, but the truth is that higher states of consciousness do flee from stupid people, since, you know, they don't they don't get tangled up with your problems. It's like, if you're not ready for it, there aren't any time to waste. Right? You know, they're not going to make the argument that you should behave better, or you should listen more carefully to your heart. You got to be there, and then you'll hear it. Yeah. So this was my attitude. Brandon Handley 21:09 Your attitude was toward the psychedelics. Yeah. To hear us Economics here at Z, you know, and what does it take? Lincoln Stoller 21:17 Mountaineering was helpful, because you get in situations where you really feel like you got to be on top of a situation that's dangerous or out of control, and you got to listen really carefully. And maybe you'll hear something, it's, it's an interesting thing that you will hear, you're not going to hear a voice speaking to the wisdom of the universe, you're going to hear the crackling of the snow, or the blowing of the wind. And that's one source of wisdom. I don't know if it's in the wind, or it's in your acute hearing, more or both. But that was part of it. So for example, you know, I climbed El Cap by a difficult group when I was 17, which was quite young. And, you know, quite an experience you have on the wall for seven days, six days, and you start to become accustomed to a vertical world, and things start to become rote. And, and the sense of twirling around at the end of a rope, like a spider, you know, 4000 feet above the ground, starts to become sort of normal, it's still, it's still, you know, gets your endorphins going, but you got a job to do, and you do it. And then you get off, and you get back into the normal horizontal world. And it's like a, it's like, a crushing load. You know, now you're in society, and you can feel people looking at you. And thinking, you know, they don't know what you've done. They just look at you like a regular person. And you can feel the weight of normality. And it was, in that particular case, somebody gave me up a capsule of mescaline and said, Here, go to a tour around the tourist bus in the valley, Yosemite Valley. And I did and I remember telling somebody, I just claimed that and they said, No, you didn't, you know, they couldn't conceive of it. And I What can I do? But laugh, you know? Yeah, so this was sort of an I say this not to stand out as odd. But I think when you make movements to open your consciousness, you're out of the world, you generally don't have anyone to talk to. And it's probably best that way. Because if you'd like sit down at the feet of some master and say, Tell me what the answer, it's like, you're gonna get some more verbal stuff. That's Brandon Handley 23:43 sure. Well, I mean, I think I think that a lot of the Masters, you know, that we would reference right, you know, any Zen Buddhist, or any of these people, they would all tell you that they have nothing to teach you. Right? That you've already to whatever it is, you're looking at you are you know you in Hinduism, like you are that right? So, you know, they Lincoln Stoller 24:06 they do one thing I don't like, which is they tell you to listen to them. Brandon Handley 24:14 Sure. And suffice to say like, you know, the gist of it is if you go looking for a guru, you'll find right yeah. And you find one then you do then you listen to them, right that's your path. That doesn't have to be your path and they the they'll tell you that just as much right you don't go out as a guru seaching students so much the students come seeking you right. So I think that there's a there's a little bit of a little bit of a thing there and again, I think for the most part most spiritual masters are gonna say you don't need really anything other than what you've already got. Right? And so you know, you're seeking it. it, I guess, in a way, by leveraging some of the psychedelics is that kind of one understand, like, again, you're looking for this thing. Lincoln Stoller 25:08 Right? That's how I started. That's how I started. Okay, then now we're changing sort of the focus in professions and culture and so forth. Can people are coming in? Brandon Handley 25:20 Yeah. How are you seeing it? I guess in your in your professional space? How where's it showing up? I understand it, you know, traditionally, doctors like they shouldn't be taking, you know, what it is that they're prescribing, which kind of puts them at a disadvantage. Where are you at in this space? What are you seeing? And I think we talked a little bit about the beginning that you feel like we're in a rocky state. Yeah. I'd love to hear more about that. Yeah, let's get into it. Lincoln Stoller 25:53 Well, you know, for a coincidence of language, some of these psychedelics were translated as medicinal medicina. But you know, what a medicina is in a shamanic culture is not what a medicine is in ours, in spite of the similarity of the words, so some of these, I'm thinking of the ones that are making the news these days. But if we got ketamine, MDMA, somewhat psilocybin, not so much LSD or by Wasco, are presented as medicines or potentially medicines. And then we've got pharmaceutical companies scrambling for patents and derivatives and, and it's getting a little unseemly, you know, it's starting to sound like money starting to smell like money. And then you're looking at professional practice. And, you know, Western medicine has this paradigm of how the practitioner helps the client. And that's not at all like what the shaman does. The shaman has a different role in the shamanic society than a doctor does in ours. And not a religious role, either kind of, you know, half spiritual or half spirit. It's like I say, a shaman is the kind of guy you would not want your daughter married to. I don't think there's any exception to that rule. So we're not really incorporating shamanic wisdom, which is deep and I think shamanic wisdom is the appropriate wisdom to use to understand psychedelics and Oregon, we're not doing that in the medical incorporation. But we are doing like Brandon Handley 27:50 Lincoln, say that again. So I mean, what does that look like? You know, you believe that we should be doing in the way that a shaman may so expand on how a shaman, may I assist a psychedelic experience? Lincoln Stoller 28:04 Oh, dear. Well, there's many threads to this. And I'll take yours just because you asked me to. It would not be the first one I would go on. I would tend to go on what the medicines are doing, what the medicine what the medicinal people are doing. But the shamanic approach. I think it's a recognition of the value of chaos and destruction in the kind of Hindu sense. disintegration, reintegration, transformation, Transcendence. The shaman in the cultures I'm familiar with, is not particularly welcome, in most cases, because they're not really allied to any material personal agenda. They live in a semi spiritual world, semi numinous. And they do strange things, sometimes good, not necessarily good to each other or to people and they have a strange sense of humor. So they're kind of instruments of chaos. I would say, you know, pretty generally shamans are instruments of chaos. And some of them they, some of them come from an herbal tradition that has healing background or healing agenda. You know, they can do both or something like that. And, you know, if you get involved with a shaman, it's like getting involved with a Cheshire Cat, you know, they can just disappear and be left with nothing but a smile. And you don't know where they are. Because there's basically saying in my understanding that the world is not as we see that there's more to it. And the leading influences are in our material world. So if you're not in the shamanic world, or the transcendence sphere ritual, you know, world of spirits, you can't really make sense others out of the shamans agenda, it's not entirely there or here, somewhere in between, they're sort of a doorman. Not entirely responsible for you, they open the door, you know, they wave their feathers blow their smoke and give you the thing to drink. And then they dance around and sing, and it's, you know, up to you, it's up to the spirits to help you not to them, you know, you have to make contacts, you have to be worthy of your own transcendence. Or, you know, I like that in terms of a model that was like, kind of a mountaineering model, you go out there and either learn, or you get your self slapped down. Right. And those are real lessons, but they're dangerous. And they're hard to appreciate. Because they don't obviously make you money, fame. And, you know, get you adulation. And if they do, you know, watch out, because those are, those are your things, not, you know, their things. So that's the kind of the shamanic model, in my view is transcendent. It's not entirely you can't really fit it into a spiritual box, or religious box, or political box or cultural box, it's out of the material world. And so if you're a spiritual person, it can make sense. Okay. Brandon Handley 31:31 So, I guess if I had to, kind of self self transcendence with like, an assist, right? Yeah. Yeah. I really, I like how you mentioned, you know, they, they're there to kind of help open up the door, they're not responsible for you, basically, after you walk through, right? Like, you're like, hey, I think I've talked some other people that have had done the Ayahuasca journeys, or something that I've ever done, but it's like, you kind of you take the ayahuasca and you kind of hold on to the rails, right? It's like, alright, well, this is the x, here it comes. Right, and it's gonna, it's gonna show you some things that you may or may not be prepared for. But I'd like Lincoln Stoller 32:11 to compare it to, in my own experience, parachute jumping, which I only did at once, but I think once was enough, I mean, I'd love to do it more. But I don't think I'd need nearly as exciting the second time. So the first time you do parachute jumping, you know, you go out the door. And all you have is your belief in how the thing is supposed to work, you know, at some experience and what you're supposed to perform, you know, that assume that assume the position and execute these actions, and then control your, your experience. And that's sort of like what it's supposed to have happen in a psychedelic experience, you go out the door, and you pull the ripcord and, you know, the world will unfold below you. But it can be that you go out the door and the parachute doesn't open in the psychedelic experience. Right, you know, and then what are you going to do? You know, I had one experience mountaineering where things went sideways. And I found myself, you know, hurtling down the side of a mountain, out of control. In a direction I wasn't supposed to be going. And I was spinning around in the air bouncing. And I think it'll probably turn to, you know, be written on my gravestone that the greatest thing I did in my life was I just opened my eyes and enjoyed the experience. Yeah, and I didn't get freaked out. And obviously, I survived. Brandon Handley 33:48 Right. Right. And that's, I think that's a I think that's, that's that's a great approach. But and I think that we hear a bunch of people express that in different ways, too, right. Some people expressed the I just kind of opened my eyes and experienced it. But then literally, that's all that happened, right then did nothing. So what does that look like for you kind of opening your eyes and experiencing life? Lincoln Stoller 34:17 Well, you know. Part of the answer is it depends what your environment is. So if you're in today, Brandon Handley 34:27 like how did you leave Lincoln? Like, what do you do to experience like, kind of open yourself up and experience life today? What did what did today look like for you? Lincoln Stoller 34:35 Well, what I've been doing in the last month has been writing a book so I'd go sort of into the space of communication and expression, which is creative and somewhat disciplined because um, you know, it's got to get into a finished format. And bad ice. I'm with my 11 year old son. So that's interesting. In view of the world that I'm talking about things I don't know, you, we talked about history and other sorts of things that adults assume that adults know and kids don't have, and it wasn't, you know, psychedelic or particularly unexplored. I do have to watch myself because I do tend to go off the rails, I like to be off the rails. Sure, but if you're with other people, they often don't appreciate it. So as a counselor, I have to be careful because other people need to go off the rails, but it's frightening for most people. And part of my job is to help them take off into the rails or out the door, and to apply my, you know, discretion as a guide in their world, to make them feel safer, safe, safer, and exploring their world. So I tend to be I compare myself to the story of Don Quixote. And, you know, his faithful servant, Pancho Sanchez. And I'm Pancho Sanchez, and their donkey Odie, and I'm trying to get them to tilt at windmills. Santa, I'm trying to, you know, get them to see the world like, like Vincent van Gogh, but not cut their hair off? Like he did. Brandon Handley 36:48 Right? Write that down thing, you know, there's certain links I don't think you have to go to, in order to achieve achieve that. So, you know, how's this showing up? I guess, in your practice, right? Are you? Are you working with others? Through psychedelics? Are you? Is it about primarily to assist yourself in the psychedelic realm? Because the other thing that you'd mentioned, too, is like you, I don't know that you said, you hit it hard, harder, at least once you're in your 40s. But like, where? Where's it showing up now for you? And how are you leveraging it in your practice? psychedelics? Lincoln Stoller 37:26 Well, the psychedelics are problematic because they're illegal, and they're unknown by authorities. The reason I think we're heading for trouble, is because there's a standard sort of management, dictum of wisdom, which is that you have to have authority with responsibility, you know, if you have the authority to do something, you've got to be responsible for what you decide. And the unsaid third component is you have to be competent. Because if you're, you know, incompetent, nothing's gonna work out well, even if you do have authority and responsibility. But we do not see those things coming together those three things. So we see government, which has the authority, they're not taking the responsibility of doing therapy. And they're certainly not competent, because they're not therapists. And we have the therapists who are presenting themselves as authorities. And they do not have competence, because no one's knows what this territory means. And they're trying to put the responsibility on the practitioner, you know, the authorities, which is to say, the Medical Teaching, the institutional training, put the responsibility on the therapist, they're trying to teach the therapists how to, well, what does it mean to be responsible? I guess it means, but it means two things, it means your client doesn't hurt themselves. And it means your client doesn't get traumatized, which is to say doesn't feel that they were hurt. But roughly, of course, you'd also like to say that your client makes progress. But that's always kind of a bugaboo in therapy, because progress, it's not yours to define. You can like test them. But that's not really I don't think that's fair. If somebody feels they made progress they did. If they didn't, then they didn't. You can say on some metric, they changed, but I don't really buy that that's kind of legalistic. So, so we don't have these things coming together. And in the everyday we have a new institution offering certification on psychedelic therapy. And it just horrifies me because it's still illegal. And you still can't learn from doing it. Unless you do in the underground, but you're not supposed to do it in the underground. If you're certified, you're supposed to always stay above ground. We can do it in another country. Free, which seems to be the only real way that most of us have done it. As therapists, we go to Costa Rica or something. Or, you know, wherever we go, or we don't talk, we, you know, whatever. But we do it at home. Right? Right. So, you know, that's the rockiness of it in order to gain responsibility and, and competence and knowledge. Somebody's got to start learning what they're doing. Most of the programs that teach therapists and certify them in psychedelic therapy, do not involve ever taking the psychedelic, and how you could gain competence without being there is like being a shaman without ever connecting with the spirits. It's like Brandon Handley 40:48 Lincoln, do you think do you feel like I mean, is that model broken? It sounds Lincoln Stoller 40:53 like it's not there yet. It's not even a model. It's just a proposal. What? Again, Brandon Handley 40:59 are Yeah, the proposal, right authority, government, and, you know, authority, responsibility and competency. Whereas if we go and we take a look at the shamanic model, we say, All right, well, who's got authority and responsibility, and he's competent, but for I think it's the outcomes that I think deviate a little bit here. Right, like you're saying, you know, there's these other things we are, you know, I think you didn't mention on this podcast, but I heard another one of your podcasts, and we talked about having a, a port psychedelic experience, and I've had, I've had plenty of them. But that's also, you know, that set and setting, to I wouldn't say I was traumatized, or theoretically hurt, but I could definitely see somebody looking back at like, if this had been in a clinical situation, I'd be like, well, that person did this to me. Right. Right. Right, without taking responsibility for myself. Now, if we take a look at it, this kind of Shamanic model, like I'm response, this is my mind, right? This is what's happening with me, and I'm responsible, you know, owning that responsibility is, I think, a huge part of it. And, and I would say though, even though I had a poor experience, I felt like those were some of my most progressive experiences, right? Like, I mean, those were the things were, man just like coming out of it just unbelievable, right? Lincoln Stoller 42:23 Well, this this is, this is a, that's a new paradigm. I think that's a new paradigm that the fact that you could feel terrible, and, and feel injured, and at the same time, think this was the best experience of your life. You know, some people who have had cancer say that? Who's, you know, well, here's an example, that's quite pointed, and quite simple. A client can accuse a therapist of anything, anything at all, they can accuse them in public, it can they can publish it in detail, the therapist cannot say anything at all in defense, because it violates client privilege. So that alone should give a therapist some pause, because some people, you know, part of the psychedelic experience, like you said, involves some unpredictable behavior and experience. And how do you fit that in a insurance policy? You know, because you got to think of that. Brandon Handley 43:27 Yeah, it's, it's gonna be really interesting, I think, to see how, you know, it's been it's been interesting right now to see psychedelics and the progress that they've made what they're trying to do with it. But it's going to be very interesting to see how it evolves due to the fact that it's this it's uncontrollable, right? Like, it's, it's basically something you drop it into the mind map mind expansion, you don't know, you have no idea what the outcomes gonna be, you really don't? Lincoln Stoller 43:57 Well, here's I want to jump in and say, here's my idea. I think people should approach psychedelics through mind expansion and find out exactly what is going to happen when they take off the brakes, or they break through the barrier. But you know, sure. So it's like, you know, parachute jumping, first, you jump off a platform onto a mattress, and then you get the feeling, right, you get the feeling or you imagine it right, and you don't freak out. Quite, or if you're gonna freak out, you do it on the mattress. So, you know, there are other ways of trance and if you're serious about doing something like psychedelics, I think this is what I would say. I would say if you're serious about having a positive experience or a healing experience, then I would hold you to exploring altered states of consciousness. Without psychedelics, to see just what you find there, what it looks like how, you know, whether you really like it, or what you know, and whether I can help you or control you, or whatever. And if you don't want to do that, then I'm, I think I wouldn't work with you. Brandon Handley 45:18 Now that makes sense. And that makes sense, right? I think that, again, especially with psychedelics, if somebody's not willing to put in some of that pre work before the actual adventure, right, that's like, you know, keep going back to your, you know, before you do the parachute, and you got to do the parachute practice stuff, right? You got to do the stuff that makes you feel comfortable to pull the cord and know that you're gonna go up there. What is, you know, you mentioned, like altered states of consciousness. What are what are some non psychedelic ways to enter into that state that you found? Lincoln Stoller 45:54 Let's say the simplest is like meditation. You know, how good are you at meditation? You? It's could be very easy. But let's talk about it, you know, that, you know, could you actually sit for an hour? You know? And would you have the patience for that? You know, and what came up. And another is hypnotherapy, right? Go into trance of guided meditation. What happens some people, there's quite a variety of of results, some people can be, go into a light trance, some people go into heavy trance, I had a client who came to me. And given the circumstances, I was offering past life regression. And they thought this was ridiculous, and a fraud. And they were gonna play it, and just show me how stupid it was. So we did the kind of protocol and they brought in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. And then they got quite upset because they stopped behaving correctly. And other animals started appearing in their mind that were not part of their Disney narrative. And they didn't behave as the animals. And and I was saying, yeah, exactly, that's all it is. It's just what comes in, you can start any way you want with any prejudice you want. But at some point, you're trying to get beyond it into the area where you don't know how the characters are supposed to behave, and they start behaving on their own. So that's a trance experience. And I've had other people who, you know, they approach what seems to be rape, you know, and then, you know, my, my role is to say, I don't think we're going to go there. But I think, you know, we're just gonna, we're just gonna teleport right beyond that experience. Because I don't know these people, on the other hand, that I've had clients who felt that they had childhood, sexual sexual abuse. And then the question is, well, just how much do we need to explore? And my answer is only as much as you feel comfortable with. So these are things you can do and let's see, you could do well, there's not a lot of in between stuff besides hypnotherapy, which I like, you know, there's exercise diet fasting meditation. Sure. Brandon Handley 48:32 I think that works. So Right. I think that works like and I mean, I just asked him for a couple of ideas there, right? If somebody was like, alright, well, maybe I'm interested, what are some others altered states that I could get into before leveraging or or going all in, right. So I Lincoln Stoller 48:49 also there's, there's lower doses not to write well, Brandon Handley 48:53 you don't start off with a tense drip of acid. Right. Like, I just think that that's probably a bad idea. Right? Lincoln Stoller 48:57 I think so. And setting setting right, you are Brandon Handley 49:02 super important, right? Yeah. Setting setting. Where are you in your headspace? Right. Like, are you really ready is today Good? Did you have if you had a shitty day, I'd say hey, maybe maybe maybe not today. Okay. Lincoln Stoller 49:14 And do you have a container that you trust? And you know, you have a sitter? Or do you, you know, that kind of stuff? And are you being pressured? Or are you really feeling that you're doing this of your own? recognizance, Brandon Handley 49:29 right? You know, how would you describe if you could, you know, the first kind of go round, right? What would somebody how would you explain that somebody's psychedelic experience? Lincoln Stoller 49:44 I think I'd Well, it depends whether you're asking me whether I just have to state it as a story or whether I can engage them because my my inclination would be to talk about dreaming and to try to get them to Recall dreaming experiences, and to get them to be engaged in participating in their dreaming experiences. So I think that, that's actually a difficult thing to do, it's certainly easier to take a pill to become involved in your dreaming means you have to have some control of your sleep. And then you have to learn how your intentions affect your dreams. And then ultimately, to some extent, you may become lucid in a dream. And then I think you have something to talk about, like, the experience, the psychedelic experience can be like a dream experience. But more or less, it can be more or less controlled. But it's the same sort of feeling that this is real, and I am real, but this doesn't make sense. Right? And often, I don't remember either where, who I was, where I was, or what's going on. And, you know, if a monster comes up in that situation, you can be really stressed out. You know, at the same time, if something like an angel comes up, you can be really inspired. Right, but that would be how I talked about it, like, start. Brandon Handley 51:20 I like it, I like it, right? So a little bit a little bit, kind of like, you know, if you can think about lucid dreaming, and being in a dream state, similar similar phases, I would say. And I guess I'm using the word phase and like, you know, kind of material and bodily fees, mind states, okay. Well, hey, we're at a spot Lincoln, where I usually like to ask a couple different questions. If you're good for it. Yeah. Because basically, Look, man, I look at this podcast a little bit like spiritual speed dating, right? You know, you're gonna be on here, somebody else is tuned in and they're like, well, it is called spiritual dove. They're looking for their next hit. They're looking for the next person to follow, be with and learn from for a little bit. And what can it could be you man, could be you. Lincoln Stoller 52:08 Well, like I'm saying, I'm talking to the culture, part of part of me is just sorry for the culture. That's it? Well, let Brandon Handley 52:15 me ask you a couple of questions here. And I'm gonna call you spiritual basketball. Number one. How does one obtain true peace? Lincoln Stoller 52:27 Damn. I think by not looking for it. I don't think it's, it's like, how do you get rich? You know? What do you go out trying to make money? No, you know, you, peace is redefined. Like rich, like wealth is redefined. So I think you look for your power, and you look for your opportunity. And you have a commitment to yourself. And in that combination, you find peace. And if you combine those things, and you don't find peace, then I think you've got a problem of the combination. Not a lack of opportunity, a Brandon Handley 53:07 little bit like baking a cake, you gotta get the ingredients, right, and the mixtures gotta go on, right? And it's kind of gotta gotta go in a certain order. You also said that this is you brought it up earlier to like, if you go chasing it, it becomes elusive. Lincoln Stoller 53:22 It does. But you know, another thing I harp on is, you got to make mistakes. And they've got to be okay. And maybe even as we said before, fun. Yeah, I mean, some of my greatest, most fun experiences have been wind surfing, when I've wiped out, right wipe outs can be really fun. You know, losing control can be hysterical. And, you know, people are adventure seekers, I think people who are taking psychedelics unless they're, they think they've been promised something, which is probably a bad idea. Have to have a sense of adventure and willingness to yours. It's very mythological. Like, if, if you read, like, I'm reading to my son, he's 11. So here, I've got this thing, some of these fantasy books that have monsters and angels and good and bad guys. And you imagine yourself that it's not a fantasy, that's really the dream you're gonna have, you know, demons, guides. Immortality, hell. If you can navigate that, it's probably going to feel real, something like that. It's going to feel real. I forgot what your question was, but that was my answer. Brandon Handley 54:48 And so that's it was a What was the question? How does one obtain true peace, right? So let's see. What is uh, you know, she's, you probably deal with A number of depressed people, I don't know, why are so many people depressed? Well, I Lincoln Stoller 55:06 don't know, I'm the right one to answer. Of course, I'm not the right one to answer any of these things. But I would guess that it's confusion and struggle and change. I would say the culture is undergoing change. And we as agents of it, are lacking in what we're being directed to do what we're being rewarded for doing. change agents. I mean, they say don't shoot the messenger, we always shoot the messenger. And were the messengers. That's the, that's kind of depressing. So I mean, get over it, you know, Brandon Handley 55:44 you signed up to get shot. Well, Lincoln, really appreciate you being on here today. You've got such a vast, vast wealth of knowledge and experiences. I know we've barely touched on it, where can people come and find out a little bit more about what you have to offer? Lincoln Stoller 56:01 Go to my website at mind, strength balanced.com. All you know, no separations all run together mind strength balanced.com. And sign up for the, you know, the blog. And it's free, it's monthly. And if you want it weekly, you pay a small amount, and you get weekly. And then their books and there's new books coming out. And they're linked on the website. And I I'll talk to anybody for half an hour for nothing. B call the number and give them direction. Brandon Handley 56:32 Nice. Bill, fantastic. I think that's a that's a great, great way to be, you know, offering that time you know, it's the peep. Some people aren't willing to offer that kind of time at all. I know that I've reached out to some people and I've had to pay for the time just to have a conversation right just to see if the conversation was worth having. But hey, everybody, everybody dictates how they want to live their own life. And you're you're doing it to be of service. So Lincoln, thank you again for for your time here today, reaching out and Lincoln Stoller 57:02 you're welcome, Brandon. It's been great. Thanks a lot for the opportunity. Intro Guy 57:08 Really hope you enjoyed this episode of the spiritual dove podcast. Stay connected with us directly through spiritual dove.co. You can also join the discussion on Facebook, spiritual and Instagram and spiritual underscore Joe. If you would like to speak with us, send us an email there Brandon at spiritual dove.co And as always, thank you for cultivating your mindset and creating a better reality. This includes the most thought provoking part of your day. Don't forget to like and subscribe to stay fully up to date. Until next time, be kind to yourself and trust your intuition. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Intro: Sometimes the little guy just doesn't cut it.Let Me Run This By You: Time's a wastin' - giddyup, beggars and choosers.Interview: We talk to star of Parks and Recreation, Easter Sunday, and Barry - Rodney To about Chicago, Marquette University, Lane Tech,  getting discovered while pursuing a Chemistry degree, The Blues Brothers, Dürrenmatt's The Physicists, playing children well into adulthood, interning at Milwaukee Rep, Lifeline Theatre, Steppenwolf, doing live industrials for Arthur Anderson, Asian American actors and their representation in the media, IAMA Theatre Company, Kate Burton, and faking a Singaporean accent.FULL TRANSCRIPT (UNEDITED):1 (8s):I'm Jen Bosworth RAMIREZ2 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand2 (15s):It. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (30s):How's your, how's your eighties decor going for your1 (35s):New house? Okay, well we closed yesterday. Well,2 (39s):Congratulations.1 (40s):Thank you. House buying is so weird. Like we close, we funded yesterday, but we can't record till today because my lender like totally dropped the ball. So like, here's the thing. Sometimes when you wanna support like a small, I mean small, I don't know, like a small bank, like I really liked the guy who is the mortgage guy and he has his own bank and all these things. I don't even, how know how this shit works. It's like, but anyway, they were so like, it was a real debacle. It was a real, real Shannon situation about how they, anyway, my money was in the bank in escrow on Friday.1 (1m 20s):Their money that they're lending us, which we're paying in fucking fuck load of interest on is they couldn't get it together. And I was like, Oh no.2 (1m 29s):They're like, We have to look through the couch cushions,1 (1m 31s):Right? That's what it felt like, Gina. It felt like these motherfuckers were like, Oh shit, we didn't actually think this was gonna happen or something. And so I talked to escrow, my friend Fran and escrow, you know, I make friends with the, with the older ladies and, and she was like, I don't wanna talk bad about your lender, but like, whoa. And I was like, Fran, Fran, I had to really lay down the law yesterday and I needed my office mate, Eileen to be witness to when I did because I didn't really wanna get too crazy, but I also needed to get a little crazy. And I was like, Listen, what you're asking for, and it was true, does not exist. They needed one. It was, it was like being in the, in the show severance mixed with the show succession, mixed with, it was like all the shows where you're just like, No, no, what you're asking for doesn't exist and you wanna document to look a certain way.1 (2m 25s):And Chase Bank doesn't do a document that way. And she's like, Well she said, I don't CH bank at Chase, so I don't know. And I said, Listen, I don't care where you bank ma'am, I don't care. But this is Chase Bank. It happens to be a very popular bank. So I'm assuming other people have checking accounts that you deal with at Chase. What I'm telling, she wanted me to get up and go to Chase Bank in person and get a printout of a certain statement period with an http on the bottom. She didn't know what she was talking about. She didn't know what she was talking about. And she was like, 18, 18. And I said, Oh ma'am, if you could get this loan funded in the next, cuz we have to do it by 11, that would be really, really dope.1 (3m 6s):I'm gonna hang up now before I say something very bad. And then I hung up.2 (3m 10s):Right, Right. Yeah. Oh my God, I know. It's the worst kind of help. And regarding like wanting to support smaller businesses, I what, that is such a horrible sadness. There's, there's no sadness. Like the sadness of really investing in the little guy and having it. That was my experience. My big experience with that was going, having a midwife, you know, with my first child. And I really, I was in that whole thing of that, that time was like, oh, birth is too medicalized. And you know, even though my husband was a doctor, like fuck the fuck the medical establishment we're just, but but didn't wanna, like, I didn't wanna go, as my daughter would say, I didn't wanna be one of those people who, what did she say?2 (3m 52s):You know, one of those people who carry rocks to make them feel better.1 (3m 57s):That's amazing. Super.2 (4m 0s):So I didn't wanna go so far as to be one of those rock carrying people to have the birth at my house, but at the same time I really wanted to have this midwife and then there was a problem and she wasn't equipped to deal with it. And it was,1 (4m 11s):I was there,2 (4m 13s):Fyi. Yes, you were1 (4m 15s):The first one, right? For your first one.2 (4m 16s):The first one.1 (4m 18s):Here's the thing you're talking about this, I don't even remember her ass. What I, she, I don't remember nothing about her. If you had told me you didn't have one, I'd be like, Yeah, you didn't have one. I remember the problem and I remember them having to get the big, the big doctor and I remember a lot of blood and I remember thinking, Oh thank God there's this doctor they got from down the hall to come or wherever the hell they were and take care of this problem because this gene is gonna bleed out right here. And none of us know what to do.2 (4m 50s):Yes. I will never forget the look on your face. You and Erin looking at each other trying to do that thing where you're like, It's fine, it's fine. But you're such a bad liar that, that I could, I just took one look at you. I'm like, Oh my God, I'm gonna fucking bleed out right here. And Aaron's going, No, no, no, it's cool, it's cool, it's cool. And then of course he was born on July 25th and all residents start their residency on July 1st. So you know, you really don't wanna have a baby or have surgery in July cuz you're getting at a teaching hospital cuz you're getting a lot of residents. And this woman comes in as I'm bleeding and everything is going crazy and I haven't even had a chance to hold my baby yet. And she comes up to me and she says, Oh cuz the, the midwife ran out of lidocaine. There was no lidocaine.2 (5m 30s):That's right. They were trying to sew me up without lidocaine. And so this nurse comes in, she puts her hand on my shoulder, she says, Hi, I'm Dr. Woo and I'm, and I said, Dr. W do you have any lidocaine? I need some lidocaine stat right up in there. Gimme some lidocaine baby. And she had to call her boss. You know who I could tell when he came in, of course he was a man and I could tell when he came in, he looks at my midwife and is like, Oh, this is what you did here. I see we have to come in and clean up. But sometimes that's the case. Sometimes it's really just true that, you know, it's that the, that the bigger kind of like more corporate option is better cuz it just works better.1 (6m 8s):Well, and they've done this before, like there is, they've done the job before in a way, and they've seen the problems. They know how to troubleshoot in a way because they just have the fucking experience. Now you could say that getting that experience is like super fucked up and patriarchal and, and all the isms, it's, and you'd be right, but when you are bleeding to death or when you know you are in a big financial negotiation that could go south at any moment and lead to not having a ho like a all feeling lost. You want someone who knows how to fucking troubleshoot, dude. Like, come on. And I, you know, and it is sad, it's heartbreaking when you like, fuck man.1 (6m 50s):I really wanted this, like Dr. Altman always said, and I have an update on Dr. Altman, my favorite psychiatrist mentor of mine. But he always said like, well when I was going through med titration, when they put this dingling at Highland Park Hospital, who tried her best but put me on lithium thinking I was bipolar and then I was and all the meds, right? All the meds. And he's like, well they could've worked2 (7m 15s):It could've worked it1 (7m 17s):All's. And I was like, you are right. So like, it could've worked, it could've gone differently, but it just didn't. So it's like, yeah, it's better to look at it like that because, or else it's just infuriating that it didn't work in the first place, Right? Like, you're like, well fucker, Well they tried.2 (7m 35s):Yeah. I use that all the time that it could have worked. Things that I got through you from Dr. Altman, you know, my husband is having like some major, you know, growth moments. Like come like those moments where all the puzzle pieces become clear and you go, Okay, my childhood isn't what I thought it was and this person has got this and this person has got that. Yes. You know? And, and whenever he's doing the thing that we all do, which is like lamenting the life, the family he wish he had had, I always say like, well, as Dr. Almond says, it could have worked. Yes, these parents could have been just fine for you if you were a different person, but you're you.2 (8m 16s):And so, and they're them and it wasn't a good match. And like that happens sometimes.1 (8m 21s):And I think it's really good with kids maybe too. Cause it's like, listen, like, like I say to my niece, like it could, this could have been whatever it is the thing or my nephew too that worked and like that you loved volleyball or that you loved this. Like you are just looking, and I think it's all about titration, right? Like it's all about figuring out where we fit in, where we belong, where we don't. And it's a fucking process, which is what he was saying and like, and that you don't, we don't get it right the first time. Even in medicine, even in it's maybe especially in medicine, maybe in especially in relationships, like, so it, it also opens the door for like, possibility, right? That like, it's an experiment and like, we don't know, even doctors don't know, Hey, run this by you, Miles did of course.1 (9m 14s):And done. What about you? What about you?2 (9m 17s):I'm gonna do it after this, after we're done recording today, I'm gonna go over and I always like to take one of my kids so they, you know, see that this is the process and you have to do it and it's everybody's responsibilities to do it. That doesn't mean that I didn't get all angry at my own party this week. You know, my mom has a great expression. I think it's her expression. She says it. In any case, all politics is local, right? Like where it really, where the really meets the road is what's happening in your backyard. And like, I have a lot of problems with my town,1 (9m 52s):So Right.2 (9m 53s):They don't wanna have, you know, they voted down this measure to put a a, like a sober living place, wanted to take up residence here. Couldn't think of a greater idea. Nobody wanted it. You know, it's a lot of nis not in my backyarders over here. And it really drives me crazy. And in the, in the paper this week, there was a big scandal because there's this particular like committee in our town, Okay. That was in charge of, there was gonna be this, what is it, like a prize maybe or an honor or not a scholarship Okay. But something where they were gonna have to name it.2 (10m 33s):Okay. And they were, you know, really looking around for names. They were trying to think up what names would be appropriate. And somebody put forward the name of this person who is already kind of a named figure in our town. Like, we had this beautiful fountain, it's named after him. He was, he was a somewhat of a big guy, you know, he was an architect, whatever. Sure. So this name gets put forward in this woman who's on this committee says, I don't think this is a great time to name something after an old white man. Now, to me couldn't be a more reasonable thing in the world to say everybody's calling for her resignation. And these, you know, the thing that I hate the most about, not just conservatives, but it seems like it's especially conservatives.2 (11m 20s):I hate this saying. And I remember, I think I've said this before on the podcast, I remember hearing some black activists saying a lot of white, you know, a lot of racism perpetrated by white people is like founded on pretending. Pretending like you don't see color pretending like, you know, saying things like, Oh, well why would you have had that experience, you know, walking down our street at night? Like, or why would you have had that difficulty getting that job? I don't understand. And pretending like they don't know that this person just got1 (11m 51s):That job because of2 (11m 52s):The color biscuit and that kind kind of a thing. So of course the way that people are coming down on this woman is to say, Well, I don't know about you, but I was taught that we have to look beyond race and we have to recognize the person before the color of their skin. And if you can't be, you know, representing the needs of white men, then I just don't really think that you, there's a place on this council. And of course, you know, somebody who I know and have in the past really respected was quoted in this article as saying, Oh, somebody who considers himself like a staunch liberal. Yeah. I mean, I just really can't think of any people of note from our town who weren't white men.2 (12m 34s):Sure. And this motherfucker let himself be quoted in our newspaper as saying this. Now maybe he feels fine about it. Maybe he doesn't think there's anything wrong with it. But I I I think it's completely, completely disgusting. Of course. So then I went and I just did this research of like all the people who have lived in our town historically, they're not just white men. We, there's other people to choose from. Needless1 (12m 58s):To say. Yeah. Well also, like, it's so interesting. I mean, it's just that that quote just is so problematic on so many levels. It like goes so deep. But like the other thing is like, maybe they miss, the only thing I can think of is that dude, did they miss the second half of your quote? Which was, and that's a problem. Like, like if, if you can't, if you can't finish that quote with, you know, I can't really think of like anyone of note in our being or anyone being recognized in our town in this way that wasn't a white dude and that's really crazy. We should really reevaluate how we're doing things here.1 (13m 39s):Period. You're so2 (13m 41s):To offer, you're so, you're so sweet to offer him this benefit of the doubt. Of course I don't offer that to him because this is a person who, you know, there's been a few people in my life who I've had the opportunity to, you know, know what they say privately and then know what they say publicly. Right? And I, and I know this, you know, I know this person personally. And no, it doesn't surprise me at all that, that that would've been the entirety of the quote. It would've been taken out of context. Now it might have been, and I don't know, and I'm not, I'm not gonna call him up to ask him, but you know, at a minimum you go on the local Facebook page and say, I was misquoting.1 (14m 20s):No, no, yeah. Chances are that this, this person just said this. And actually the true crime is not realizing if, if, if that's the case, that they, that that statement is problematic. So that's really fucked up. And also, like, think of all the native people that were on that land, on our land. Like, you're gonna tell me that just because you haven't done, they haven't done the research. They don't think that a native person from the northeast did something of greatness. Shut up, man. Excellent. Before it was rich.2 (14m 56s):Excellent point, Excellent point. Maybe when I write to my letter to the editor, maybe I'll quote you on that because Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's so, it's just, and I'm, by the way, I'm, I have been, I'm sure I'm still am guilty of the same thing too, of just being the laziness of like, well, I don't know, we'd love to, you know, hire a person of color, but none have applied. I mean, I have definitely said things like that and I just understand differently now I understand. No, no, no, they're not gonna be at the top of the pile of resumes that you're gonna get because historically these people haven't felt like there's a place for them at your table. So what you have to do is go above and beyond and say, we are specifically recruiting people of color for this position. I understand.1 (15m 35s):And how about even like, do some research online and find out who those people are and try to like, hire them away from wherever they are to and make them a great offer. You know what I mean? Like all those things. Well,2 (15m 48s):This experience did cause me to go on my little Wikipedia and look up, you know, people who have lived here and I was really like, surprised to learn how many people have known. Now it's true to say that, you know, when, when you're just looking up a list of famous people, it is gonna mostly be white men because that's who mostly, you know, sort of, she made, made history, made the news, whatever. But yeah, one of the very first things that come up, comes up when you look it up my town on Wikipedia, is that the fact that this was the Ramapo tribe that lived here. You know, this is who we took the land away from. I was also surprised to that.1 (16m 29s):I've never,2 (16m 30s):Yeah, Yeah. It was also interesting to learn, supposedly according to this, how many people of live here currently, including people like Harvey Firestein, who I have, I've never seen around town, but God I would really love to. And like some other, you know, sort of famous people. But anyway, That's1 (16m 50s):So cool.2 (16m 51s):Yeah. So, so I will be voting after this and I really, I don't have a great feeling about the election, but I'm, you know, I'm just like, what can you do? You can just sort of go forward and, you know, stick to your values. Yeah. I mean,1 (17m 7s):The thing is, stick to your values, move forward. And like my aunt, happy birthday, Tia, it's her birthday today, and she is like super depressed that, you know, she, she said, what she says is like, fascism is really, today is the day that we really something about fascism, it's like really dire and like really, Okay. So my, it's so interesting that I think boomers feel really bad because they had it so good, even though it wasn't really good, there was an illusion of goodness. Right? So I, I am depressed. But here's the thing, and I was, I was gonna bring this up to you.1 (17m 47s):It's like I, I had an experience last night where I went to this theater and saw the small theater, which I really wanna do my solo show in which is this famous theater called The Hayworth, which is, they show silent movies and all, but there's now it's like an improv sort of venue and, and it's really cute and throwbacky. But anyway, I went there and I just was thinking like, as I was watching these performers, like, oh, it is not even that, Like, it's literally that I spent 45 years thinking that I was worse than everybody else, right? And so now that I don't really think that, I actually don't have that much time left to accomplish what I would like to accomplish. So I, I spent all this time feeling like I couldn't do what she's doing.1 (18m 29s):I can't do what he's doing, can't do what theirs doing. They're, they are doing because I'm not good enough. Like literally. And now I'm like, Oh my God, I'm good enough. I have things to say. I really wanna leave a legacy. And literally the clock is ticking. Now, I'm not saying I'm running around like a nut, but what I'm saying is like, I, I, I do feel that I literally don't have the time left to participate in half-assed measures of art or whatever we're gonna do. We gotta make it purposeful because I w i, I spent all this time getting ready 45 years to not hate myself. And now the clock is ticking, I donate myself and there are things to do.1 (19m 13s):That's literally how I feel. So then when I see art or something where I'm like, Why are you using your platform this way? What are you talking about? What are you saying? Oh no, I can't, I even now I know why people leave movies early, plays early if it is, and some, for me anyway, like some people probably just assholes and like the, the person on stage doesn't look cute and they're out or whatever, but, or they're having panic attacks like I used to and I have to leave. But like, mostly I understand where it's like this is wasting my, my time, time I could be using to sort of plant seeds that may do something to be of service.1 (19m 53s):So I'm gonna jet and good luck to you. But yeah, it's the first, I just really feel like time is of the essence. And I always thought that was such a stupid thing that old people said, which was, you know, time is our most precious commodity. And I was always like, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And now I'm like, oh shit. Yeah, it's really true Dude.2 (20m 15s):Yeah. Yeah. I actually had an experience some that I relate to with that, which is that, you know, I, I volunteered to be part of this festival of one act and you know, the thing we were supposed to do is read all of the submissions and then pick our top three. And then they were gonna do this rank order thing where they're attempting to put each director with one of their top three choices. Well, I read, it was like 10 plays I read them and I, I didn't have three, three ch choices. There was only one play that I felt frankly was worth my time.2 (20m 56s):And I felt really uncomfortable about having that feeling. And I was doing all of the like, who do you think you are? And you know, it's, you haven't directed something in three years and beggars can't be choosers in the whole thing. And I just thought, you know, I know what I'm gonna do if I don't stand up for whatever it is I think I can do here is I'm gonna resent the thing that I get, you know, pitted with and then I'm gonna do something self-destructive or I'm gonna kind of like blow up the relationship and I don't wanna do that. So I spend a lot of time thinking about how I was gonna write this email back saying basically like, I don't have three choices. I only have one choice. And I understand if you don't want to give that to me that this, I might not be a good fit for you.2 (21m 37s):You know? But I really, I really kind of sweated over it because when you don't, you know, when you're a very, if I was an extremely established theater director, you know, I wouldn't have thought twice about it. But I'm not, I'm trying to be established here and I, you know, so my, my, my go-to has always been well having opinions and choices and stuff like that is for people who, you know, have more than you do or have more to offer than you do. And it doesn't always work out that when you kind of say, This is me and take me or leave me. It doesn't always work out. But in this case it doesn't. They gave me my first choice. And so I'm, I'm happy about that, but there's a lot.2 (22m 18s):Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, there's a lot that just goes into the, it's all just work I have to do on myself. Like, I have this, a way of thinking about things is like, I have to do this work with this other person or I have to convince them why it has nothing to do with that. It's just that I have to do this.1 (22m 34s):Well that's what I'm realizing, like Gina, Absolutely. And good for you for like, coming at it from a place of like, okay, like this might not work, but I have to do it to see and put it out there and it may not work and they may say, go fuck yourself. But the alternative one is resentment, but also is like, hmm, not doing anybody else any favors either. If you aren't saying like, I actually don't have three choices here, I'm not gonna do justice. And I also, it brings me to my other thing, which I thought was so full of shit, which is so true. It's like most things are just not, it's about not being a right fit. It's not about you're bad and I'm good, I'm good and you're bad.1 (23m 15s):It's like, this is not a good match. And I, I think it just takes what it takes to learn that it is a not, it's about a matching situation. So like you knew that like those other two wouldn't be good matches and you wouldn't do a service to them or yourself. And it's not, And also like this thing about beggars can't be choosers. I fucking think it's so dumb because like most of us are beggars all the time and, and we, we settle for garbage. And it doesn't, like, I feel like we can, like beggars should be more choosy. And I also feel like, I'm not saying not be humble, but like, fuck you if you take away our choices, like we have to have choices.1 (23m 57s):That's the thing. It's like beggars have choices, whatever you call a beggar, we still have choices. Like how we're gonna interact and how and how we're gonna send emails and shit. I'm just like,2 (24m 9s):Yeah. Plus that whole phrase is so like, in a way rooted in this kind of like terrible supremacy structure that we're trying to fight against, which is like, we wanna tell, of course we wanna tell beggars that they can't be choosers cuz we just, we don't wanna think about them as people who have the same agency in life as we do.1 (24m 25s):Sure. And now I've started saying to people when I have this conversation about like, about unhoused, people like having tent encampments and I get it, like, you're going to school, you're walking your kid to Montessori and there's a fucking tent encampment in your front yard. You did not pay for that. You did not sign up for that. You are, I get it. And also my question is, what are we gonna do when the tents outnumber the people in homes? Because then it's a real fucking problem. So like, how are we gonna do that? You think it's uncomfortable? I think it's uncomfortable to walk by a tent encampment as I'm on my way to a coffee date with someone or whatever.1 (25m 8s):That's uncomfortable. But what are we gonna do when, like in India, the, the quote slums or whatever people, you know, whatever people choose to call it, outnumber the goddamn people in the towers. Then we, then it's gonna be a different problem.2 (25m 35s):Today on the podcast, we were talking to Rodney Toe. Rodney is an actor, you know him from Parks and Recreation, Barry good girls Rosewood. He was in a film this summer called Easter Sunday. Anyway, he's a delight. He's also a professor of theater at USC and he's charming and wonderful and we know you are going to love listening to him as much as we loved talking to him. So please enjoy our conversation with Rodney Toe.3 (26m 8s):Can you hear me? Can you hear me okay?2 (26m 11s):Yes, you sound great. You sound1 (26m 13s):Happy. No echo. You have beautiful art behind you. We can't ask for a2 (26m 17s):Better Easter Sunday. We were just talking about Easter Sunday, so we're gonna have to ask you Oh sure about it, Beth. But first I have to say congratulations, Rodney tell you survive theater school.3 (26m 28s):Oh, thank you. Yes, I did. I sure did. Was2 (26m 31s):It usc? Did you go to3 (26m 32s):Usc? No, I, I'm a professor. I'm currently a professor at usc. So1 (26m 36s):We just assumed you went there, but where did you go3 (26m 38s):To No, no, no, no, no. I, that, that came about like in a roundabout way, but no, I, I totally, I went, went to Marquette University. Oh, in Milwaukee?1 (26m 46s):In Milwaukee. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So3 (26m 48s):Everybody's reaction, everybody's reactions like, well1 (26m 53s):I actually love Mil, I'm from Chicago and Evanston you do and then you are,3 (26m 58s):Yeah, born and raised north side. My family's still there. What1 (27m 1s):The hell? How did I not know this? Yeah, I'm from Evanston, but lived in Rogers Park and went to, we went to DePaul.3 (27m 7s):Well I hear the park. Yes, yes. Born and raised. My family's still there. I am a Chicago, I'm an undying Chicago and through and through. Yeah.1 (27m 15s):Wait a minute. So, so, okay, okay, okay. So you grew up on the north, you grew up in, on the north side.3 (27m 20s):Yeah, I grew up in, I, I grew up and I went to Lane Tech. Oh1 (27m 24s):My gosh, that's where my niece goes right this very minute. She goes, Yeah,3 (27m 28s):It's1 (27m 28s):Quite the school. I dunno how it was when you went, but it went through a hard time and now it's like one of these3 (27m 34s):Go, I mean when I went it was, it was still considered a magnet school. And I I, you know, I think like in like it went maybe through a period of like, sort of like shifting, but then it's like now it's an incredible school. I'm September 17th is apparently Rodney to day at Lane 10. No, Yeah, it just happened. I mean it's, it's silly. It's Easter significance. No, cause of Easter Sunday they did like a bunch of, you know, I do a lot of advocacy for the Asian American for Asian-American representation. So sort like all together1 (28m 4s):That movie had broke so many, broke so many barriers and was, I mean it was a phenomenal, and also I just feel like it's so obviously so needed. Duh. When people say like, more representation is needed, I'm like, okay, no shit Sherlock. But it's true. It bears repeat again. Cause it still is true that we need more representation. But I am fascinated. Ok, so you went to Lane Tech and were you like, I'm gonna be a famous actor, comedian? No, what,3 (28m 34s):What anything about it? Didn't I, you know, it's called Lane Tech for a reason, right? It's a technical school. Correct. So like we didn't, you know, it didn't, I mean there were arts, but I, it never really, you know, it was one of those things that were like, you know, I guess like when you were a kid, it's all like, hey, you wanna learn how to like macrame. But there were theater arts in my, in my high school, but it wasn't like,1 (28m 54s):In fact, my mother did macrame. And let me tell you something, it has come back in style. And the shit she made, we could be selling for $199 at Urban Outfitters right now. I'm just,3 (29m 4s):Oh yeah, it's trendy now. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's in style.1 (29m 7s):Anyway, side note, side note. Okay, so you were like, I'm not doing, there was no performing at Lane Tech. There was no like out there, there,3 (29m 13s):There was, and there was, but it wasn't, again, you know, in terms of representation, there was nothing that like, I mean there was nothing that that showed me any kind of like longevity in, in, you know, it didn't even really occur to me that this was a business that people sort of like, you know, pursued for themselves. So it wasn't until I went to Marquette that I discovered theater. And so it was one of those things that like, I was like, oh, there's something here. So it wasn't like, it wasn't fostered since I was a kid.1 (29m 43s):This,2 (29m 44s):And this is my favorite type of origin story because it means, you know, like there are people who grow up in LA or their, their parents are in the industry. And then, so it's always a question like, am I gonna go into this industry? But, but people like you and like me and like Boz, who, there's no artist in our family, you know,3 (30m 4s):You2 (30m 4s):Just have to come to it on your own. So I would love to hear this story about finding it at Marquette.3 (30m 10s):So like the, this, I, I've told this story several times, but the short version of it is, so I went to college for chemistry. And so again, because I came from, you know, that that was just sort of the path that, that particularly, you know, an Asian American follows. It's a very sort of stem, regimented sort of culture. And when I went to Marquette, my first, my sort of my first like quarter there, it was overwhelming, you know, I mean, college was, was a big transition for me. I was away from home and I, I was overwhelmed with all of the STEM courses that I was taking, the GE courses. And I, I went to my advisor and at the time, you know, this is pre-internet, like he, we sat down, I sat down with him and he pulled out the catalog.3 (30m 52s):Oh yeah, the catalog, right? I1 (30m 54s):Remember the catalog. Oh yeah.3 (30m 56s):And so he was like, let's take a class that has nothing to do with your major. Oh,1 (30m 60s):I love this. I love this advisor. I love this advisor. Do you know, can he you say his name3 (31m 7s):At the, was it Daniel? Dr. Daniel t Hayworth. I mean, it's been a while I went to college with Dahmer was arrested. So that's been a1 (31m 15s):While. Okay. Yeah's, same with us. Same with me. Yeah.3 (31m 18s):Yeah. So like, I think it was Daniel Daniel Hayworth. Yeah. Cuz he was a, he was a chemistry professor as well. So he opened up, he opened up the, the thing in the, the catalog and it said acting for non-majors. And I remember thinking, that sounds easy, let's do that. And then I went to the class, I got in and he, he, he was able to squeeze me in because already it was already in the earl middle of the semester. And so I, the, the, the, the teacher for that class was a Jesuit priest. His name is Father Gerald Walling. And you know, God rest his soul. And he, his claim to fame was he had like two or three lines on Blues Brothers, the movie.1 (31m 59s):Amazing. I mean like great to fame to have Yes. Get shot in Chicago. Yeah. And if you're a Jesuit priest that's not an actor by trade, like that is like huge. Like most people would like die to have two to three lines on Blues Brothers that are working anyway. So, Okay, so you're, so he, so how was that class?3 (32m 19s):So I took the class and he, after like the first week he asked me, Hey is, and it was at 8:00 AM like typical, like one of those like classes that I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm gonna go in here miserable. Yeah. But he said to me early on, he said, Do you have any interest in doing this professionally? And I said, no. And he's like, and he, he said, and he said, I was like, You're hilarious. You know,1 (32m 43s):You're a hilarious Jesuit.3 (32m 45s):Yeah. I'm like, Good luck with God. He, he then he was directing, he was directing the university production of, and he asked me to audition for it. And I was, I don't even know what an audition was. That's amazing. So like, it was one of those things that I didn't really know how to do it. I didn't know much about it. And so he's like, Can you come in and audition for it? And I did and I got it and it was, it was Monts the physicist,1 (33m 12s):What the fuck is that?3 (33m 14s):Oh man, I love that play. It's Amont, it's the same, you know, it's the same. He's, you know, Exactly. It's really, it's one of those like sort of rarely done plays and it's about fictitious Albert Einstein, the real, lemme see if I, it's been so long since I recall this play. The real, So Isaac Newton and what was the other Mobius? A fictitious, So the real, I'm sorry, The real Albert Einstein, The real, the real Albert Einstein, the real Isaac Isaac New and a fake, a fictitious play scientist named Mobius.3 (33m 55s):And they were, they were all in, in a mental institution. And I1 (33m 60s):Think that I have this play and my shelves and I just have never read it before. Okay, so3 (34m 4s):Who did you play? It's extraordinary. Extraordinary. And so I played, I played a child like I did up until my mid thirties. I played a child who had like one line, and I remember it took, it took place in Germany, I believe. And I remember he's like, Do you have a German accent? I was like, No. You're1 (34m 20s):Like, I I literally am doing chemistry 90.3 (34m 23s):Yeah. I was all like, you're hilarious. Yeah. Only children do accents, You know what I mean? Like, it was totally, I was like, whatever's happening, I don't even know what's happening. And, and then I made up a European accent. I mean, I, I, I pulled it on my ass. I was like, sure, don't even remember it. But I was like, one of,1 (34m 39s):I love when people, like, recently Gina showed me a video of her in college with an accent. Let me tell you something, anytime anyone does an accent, I'm like, go for it. I think that it's so3 (34m 51s):Great. Yeah. I've got stories about, about, I mean, I'm Asian, right? So like, I mean it's been one of those things that all my life I've had to sort of navigate people being like, Hey, try this on for Verizon. I was like, Oh gosh. And you know, anyway, I can go on forever. But I did that, I had a line and then somebody saw me in the production with one line and said, Hey, this is at the Milwaukee Repertory Theater, somebody from the Milwaukee Repertory Theater. It's huge1 (35m 18s):Theater. Fyi. Right,3 (35m 20s):Right. Again, it's, it's to this day. And so they asked if I would intern, if I would be considered interning while I was in school. And I said, I didn't even know what that was. So I met with them. And when I walked into that theater, it was one of those, it's one of the biggest, most extraordinary music theaters in the wor in the country. Right. Won the regional, Tony and I, again, I had no frame of reverence for it. So walking in, it was like this magical place. And so I started, I started interning right, right off the bat. And it was one of those like life changing experiences. I, I mean, to this day, the best acting I think I've ever seen, you know, face to face has been on that stage. It's, you know, many of those actors are still, I'm still in touch with to this day.3 (36m 3s):Some of them have passed away. However, it was the best training, right? I mean, I got thrown into the deep end. It was like working with some of the greats who never, no one ever knew. Right. So it really, it was really a wonderful experience. And that's when I sort of, you know, that's when I was like, Oh, I actually can do this for a living. So it was,1 (36m 21s):Oh yeah, Milwaukee rep. I've seen some amazing stuff there. And also what would've been great is, yeah, we like, I mean there's so many things that would've been great at DePaul at the theater school, but one of them would've been, Hey, there's all these regional theaters, like if you wanna make some dough, it was either like, you are gonna be doing storefront and Die of Hunger, or you're gonna be a star. Hilarious was no like, what about Milwaukee Rep? What about the Guthrie? Like all the things3 (36m 50s):Gut, Yeah. Never1 (36m 51s):Told at least. Or I didn't listen or I was like in a blackout drunk state. But like, I just feel like hilarious. I just feel like that is so amazing that you got to do that. So then, Wait, did you change3 (37m 2s):Your It wasn't, I did. I eventually did. Yes. So I have both. And so now it was one of those, like, it was, it was harrowing, but eventually, I mean, I did nothing with my chemistry degree. Nothing. Like literally nothing. That's,2 (37m 16s):Most people do nothing with their theater degree. So, so it all evens out. Wait, I have a question. Now. This is a question that would be difficult for me to answer. So I wouldn't fault to you if it's difficult for you. What do you think it was in you that this person saw and said, have you ever considered doing this professionally? I mean, just trying to be really objective about the, the asce the essence of you that you bring to the table. Always. How, what did that person identify, do you think, if you3 (37m 44s):Had to guess? You know, I'd like to say it was talent. I'd love to be that person and be like, you know, they recognized in me in one line that ordinary artist was going to emerge into the universe and play children into his thirties. I, I wish I could. It was that, I mean, honestly, I looked different than everybody else on that's a white school and Milwaukee rep, you know, God, forgive me for saying this, but it was a sensibly all white institution.1 (38m 12s):Super white. Super white. Yeah.3 (38m 14s):So in comes this little Asian guy who like they thought might have had potential and also is Asian. And I checked off a lot of boxes for them. And you know what I could easily say, like I, I could easily sort of, when, if you asked me like 20 years ago, I was like, Oh, I was talented, but now I'm like, no, I made my way in because of, because I, I checked boxes for people and, and1 (38m 37s):Talented,3 (38m 38s):You couldn't,1 (38m 39s):You3 (38m 39s):Couldn't have done it if you didn't have talent to thank you. And I can, I can, you know, whatever, I can own that now. But the, but the reality is like, I made it in and that's how I got in. And I'm okay with that. And I'm not saying that it's not taking anything away from talent, but the reality is it's like you gotta get in on the inside to work your way out. And if I didn't have that exposure early on, I certainly wouldn't have had the regional career that I did for a little while. You know? So like that credit, like you, like you said Jen, it's like, it's a, it's a huge credit. So like I would not have made it in any other way. Right. And I certainly,1 (39m 12s):Yeah, I just am like noticing also like my reaction to, Yeah, it's interesting too as other humans in this industry or any industry, it's like, it's like we have had to, especially those of us that are, you know, I'm 47 and like those of us who have made it in or sort of in for, in my, I'm just speaking for myself. Like I, I sort of, right, It could have been fucked up reasons or weird reasons that we got in the door or even filling someone's need or fantasy. But then it's like what we do with it once we're in the room, that really, really matters. And I think that yeah, regardless of how you ended up in Milwaukee rep, like I think it's smart and like I really like the idea of saying okay, like that's probably why I was there.1 (39m 58s):I checked, I've checked boxes, but Okay. But that's why a lot of people are a lot of places. And so like, let's, let's, let's, you could stop there and be like, that is some fucked up shit. Fuck them. Or you could say, Wait a second, I'm gonna still have a fucking career and be a dope actor. Okay, so you're there, you're, you're still, you graduate from Marquette with a double major, I'm assuming, right? Chemistry and, and was it theater, straight up theater or what was your degree?3 (40m 23s):It's, well, no, no, it's called, it's, it's, it's the, at the time it's called, they didn't have a theater degree. Right. It was called the, you graduated with a degree in Communications. Communications,1 (40m 32s):Right? Yes. Okay, okay. Yeah. My, my niece likes to say Tia, all the people in communications at UCLA are the dumbest people. I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. That would've been me. And she's like, Well, anyway, so okay, so, so you graduate and what happens? What happens to you?3 (40m 54s):So, you know, I, I went from there. I went to, I got my equity card pretty ear pretty early cuz I went for my, I think it was my final between my, the summer, my junior year and my senior year I went to, because of the Milwaukee rep, I got asked to do summer stock at, at ppa, which is the Pacific Conservatory, the performing Arts, which is kind of like an Urda contract out in the West Co on the west coast. And so I was able to get credits there, which got me my equity card very quickly after, during that time I didn't get it at the institution, but I got like enough, you know, whatever credit that I was able to get my equity card. And again, at the time I was like, eh, what are the equity? I didn't even know know what that was really.3 (41m 34s):I don't know if anybody truly knows it when they're, when they're younger. So I had it and I went, right, I had my card and I went right to Chicago because family's there. So I was in Chicago. I did a couple of shows, I did one at at Lifeline at the time. I did one at North. Yeah. So it was nice to sort of go back and, and, and, and then I, you know, right then I, it's my favorite story, one of my favorite stories. I, I got my, my my SAG card and my after card in Chicago that summer, because at the time the union was separate. That's how old I am. And I got my SAG card doing a Tenax commercial, and I got my after card doing, I'm not sure if they're still there.3 (42m 18s):I think they are actually. It is a company called Break Breakthrough Services and they did it live industrial. Oh yeah.1 (42m 24s):They, I think they still wait live. How does that work? Yeah,3 (42m 29s):Exactly. So it's a lot of like those training, you know, you see it a lot, like the people do it, like corporate training stuff. Right. So they used, at the time it was really new. So like they used a lot of actors and they paid well.1 (42m 42s):Well, I did an Arthur Anderson one that like paid my rent3 (42m 45s):Long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So exactly when Arthur Anderson was still a, I think I did one too. So like, they,1 (42m 53s):Rodney,3 (42m 55s):Were you in St. Charles, Illinois?1 (42m 57s):I don't know. I had to take the Amtrak. It could have been,3 (42m 59s):Yeah. In St. Charles. Right? That's where they were centered. Yes. Yeah.1 (43m 2s):Okay, go ahead. Go ahead. So you, okay, so you got your, I know our world. Do you live, Where do you live?3 (43m 8s):I'm in, I'm in LA right now. This is my home. Yeah.1 (43m 11s):Okay. Well I'm coming to your home. Okay, great. I'm in Pasadena right now. Okay. Anyway, go ahead. Oh yeah.3 (43m 17s):Okay. So we, yeah, I went to Chicago, got my cards, and then was there for, you know, a hot minute and then I moved to New York. Okay.1 (43m 25s):Wait, wait, wait. Moved. Did you have, what years were you working in Chicago? Like were we still, were Gina and I in school? What, what, what years were that were you were like, Tampa, a man Chicago.3 (43m 35s):I did God bless that commercial. Yeah, it was so good. I did, let's see here, I grad, I was there in 90, let's see, 97,1 (43m 47s):We were there. Well, Gina was graduating and I, I was, yeah. Anyway, we were there.3 (43m 52s):And then I moved to New York in 98 and then I moved to New in 98. So1 (43m 55s):You were only in Chicago a hot minute? Yeah, yeah, yeah.3 (43m 57s):Okay. Yeah. But then I came back, I came back in 2004 five to do a show at Victory Gardens. Oh. And then I did a show at Victory Gardens, and then I did a workshop at Stepin Wolf. So it was nice. Look at1 (44m 12s):Victory Gardens. Victory Gardens. That was a whole,3 (44m 15s):I'm sorry, what was that?1 (44m 16s):R i p, Victory Gardens.3 (44m 17s):Oh, yeah. I mean, well I was there pre-K. Yeah. And so, but it was, yeah, r i p I mean, r i it was truly one of the most magnificent, magnificent shows that I've been part, but I mean,1 (44m 30s):Okay, so wait, wait, wait. Okay, so why New York? Why weren't you like, I'm gonna bust out and go to LA and be a superstar on,3 (44m 38s):It's all about representation. I mean, I didn't see at the time, and you know, if you think about it, like there were people on television, but, you know, in terms of like the, the, the, it wasn't pervasive. It was like sort of every once in a while I'll turn on my TV and I'll see like Dante Bosco or I'll see like, you know what I mean? But it wasn't like I saw like, you know, I wasn't flooded with the image of an Asian American making it. However, at the time, you know, it was already Asian Americans were starting to sort of like flood the theater world, right? So I started, you know, through James c and, and Lisa Taro in Chicago, and like, people who are like, who are still friends of mine to this day, Asian American actors, they were doing theater. And so I was like, you know what, I'm gonna do theater. And so I, it was just one of those, like, I went to, and I already had these credits.3 (45m 19s):I had my equity card, I had some credits. My natural proclivity was then to go to, to, to first theater in New York. So it wasn't, I didn't even think about LA it wasn't like, oh, let me, let me like think about doing television and film. So I went1 (45m 32s):To York. I just feel like in LA it's so interesting. As an actor, writing is a little different, but as an actor, it, most of us, if we plan to go to LA as actors, we're gonna fail. I just feel like you have to end up here as an actor by accident because you do something else that you love and that people like, and then they're like, I just, it's not the most welcoming. Right. Medium film and tv. So like, it's so hard. So I think by accident is really sort of the only way, or if you're just already famous for something else, but like, anyway, So you're in New York. Did you, did you love it? Wait, can I,2 (46m 9s):Can I hang on Buzz, Can I do a timeout? Because I've been wanting to ask this just a little bit back to, you know, your undergrad experience. Did you wanna be, did you love chemistry or did you just do that because Oh, you did, Okay. So it wasn't, it wasn't like, oh, finally I found something that I, like you liked chemistry.3 (46m 29s):Yeah. To this day, to this day, I still like, it's still very much like, you know, the, the, the values of a stem field is still very much in how I teach, unfortunately. Right? Like, I'm very empirical. I, I, I need to know an, I need to have answers. Like, you know, it tends to, sometimes it tends to be a lot of it, like, you know, you know, sort of heady and I'm like, and now I need, I need, I'm pragmatic that way. I need to understand like why, Right? That2 (46m 53s):Doesn't seem unfortunate to me. That seems actually really fortunate because A, you're not the only artist who likes to think. I mean, you know, what about DaVinci? Like, a lot of people like to think about art in a, in a, I mean it's really, they're, they're, they're really kind of married art and science.3 (47m 8s):Yeah. They really are people. I, I think people would, It's so funny. Like people don't see it as such, but you're absolutely right. I agree. It's so more, Yeah. There's so much more in common.1 (47m 18s):The other thing that I'm glad Gina brought that up is cuz I'm questioning like, okay, so like, I don't know about at Marquette, but like at DePaul we had like, we had, like, we had these systems of, you got warnings if you, you weren't doing great and I bet like you probably didn't have the cut system cause that just is okay, good. But okay.3 (47m 36s):Well we were, we remember we were, we weren't a conservatory, right? So we were very much a, a liberal programming.1 (47m 42s):Yeah, I love it. Oh God, how I longed for that later, right? But anyway, so what would've helped is if someone with an empirical, like someone with more a stem mind sat down with me and said, okay, like, here are the things that aren't working in a practical way for you, and here are the things that you can do to fix it. Instead, it was literally this nebulous thing where my warning said, You're not living up to your star power now that's not actually a note. So that, that, that Rick Murphy gave me, and I don't, to this day, I'm like, that is actually, so I would love if I had someone like you, not that you'd be in that system, but like this to say like, okay, like here's the reasons why.1 (48m 25s):Like there was no why we were doing anything. It was like, you just do this in order to make it. And I said, Okay, I'll do it. But I was like, what the hell? Why are we doing this? That's,3 (48m 35s):That's like going to a doctor and a doctor being like, you're sick. You know what I mean? And you're like, but can, that's why I'm here is for you to help me get to the root of it and figure it out. Right. Being like, you're,1 (48m 46s):I think they didn't know, Here's the thing, I don't think it, it3 (48m 50s):Was because they're in.1 (48m 51s):Yeah. I I don't think it was because they were, I mean, they could have been rude in all the things. I literally, now that I'm 47, looking back on that experience, I'm like, Oh, these teachers didn't fucking know what they were, how to talk. And3 (49m 3s):This is how I came. Yeah, yeah. Which is how I came back to usc. So like that's,1 (49m 7s):Anyway, continue your New York adventure. I just wanted to know.3 (49m 11s):No, no, no. New York is was great. New York is New York was wonderful. I love it. I still love it. I I literally just got back with it. That's why, remember I was texting you, emailing you guys. I I just got back, Yes. The night before. Some amazing things. My husband would move back in a heartbeat if I, if I like texted him right now. And I was like, Hey, like let's move back. The house would be packed and we'd, he'd be ready to go. He loves, we both love it. You know, Am I in love with New York? I, that, that remains to be seen. I mean, you know, as I get older that life is, it's a hard life and I, I love it when there's no responsibilities when you can like, skip around and have tea and you know, walk around Central Park and like see shows.3 (49m 53s):But you know, that's obviously not the real, the reality of the day to day in New York. So I miss it. I love it. I've been back for work many times, but I, I I don't know that the life is there for me anymore. Right. I mean, you know, six fuller walkups. Oh no. Oh no. I just, yeah, I1 (50m 11s):Just like constantly sweating in Manhattan. Like I can't navigate, It's like a lot of rock walking really fast and3 (50m 20s):Yeah. And no one's wearing masks right now. I just, I just came back and I saw six shows when I was there. No one's wearing masks. It's like unnerving. And again, like, you know, you know, not throwing politics in it. I was like, you guys, like, how are you okay with it? I'm just like, how are you not unnerved by the fact that we're cramped in worse than an airplane? And everyone's like coughing around you and we're sitting here for three hours watching Death of a Salesman. I mean, like, how was that1 (50m 43s):Of an2 (50m 45s):Yeah know?3 (50m 46s):I mean,2 (50m 47s):So what about the, so at some point you, you pretty much, I mean, you don't do theater anymore, right? You transition to doing3 (50m 55s):Oh, I know, I do. Very much so, very much. I'm also the associate, Yeah. I'm the associate artistic director of, I am a theater company, so like I'm, I'm very much theater's. I will never let go. It's, it's just one of those things I will never as, as wonderful as television and film has been. It's, it's also like theater's, you know? It's the, it's my own, it's my first child. Yeah.2 (51m 19s):Yeah.1 (51m 20s):We have guests like Tina Parker was like that, right? Wasn't,2 (51m 23s):Yeah. Well a lot of, a lot of people. It's also Tina Wong said the same thing.3 (51m 26s):He and I are different. She's part, we're in the same theater company. So Yeah. Tina's.2 (51m 30s):That's right. That's right. That's right. Okay, now I'm remembering what that connection was. So I have a question too about like, when I love it, like I said, when people have no idea anything related to performing arts, and then they get kind of thrust into it. So was there any moment in sort of discovering all this where you were able to make sense of, or flesh out like the person that you were before you came to this? Like a lot of people have the experience of, of doing a first drama class in high school and saying, Oh my God, these are my people. And never knowing that their people existed. Right. Did you have anything like that where you felt like coming into this performing sphere validated or brought some to fullness?2 (52m 14s):Something about you that previously you hadn't been able to explore?3 (52m 18s):Yeah. I mean, coming out, you know what I mean? Like, it was the first time that people talk, you know? Of course, you know, you know, I was born to, you know, like was God, I said I was born this way. But that being said, like again, in the world in which I grew up in, in Chicago and Lane Tech, it's, and, and the, you know, the technical high school and, and just the, the, the, I grew up in a community of immigrants. It's not like it was laid out on the table for one to talk about all the time. Right. It wasn't, and even though I may have thought that in my head again, it wasn't like, it was like something that was in the universe and in the, in the air that I breathed. So I would say that like when I got to the theater, it was the first time, you know, the theater, you guys we're, we're theater kids, right?3 (53m 2s):We know like every, everything's dramatic. Everything's laid, you know, out to, you know, for everyone. Everyone's dramas laid out for everyone. A the, and you know, part of it was like sexuality and talking about it and being like, and having just like, just being like talking about somebody's like ethnic background. And so it was the first time that I learned how to talk about it. Even to even just like how you even des you know, you know how you even describe somebody, right? And how somebody like, cuz that again, it's not, it wasn't like, it wasn't language that I had for myself. So I developed the language and how to speak about people. So that's my first thing about theater that I was like, oh, thank God.3 (53m 43s):You know? And then, you know, even talking about, you know, like queer, like queer was such a crazy insult back when I was a kid. And then now all of a sudden queer is now this embraced sort of like, badge of honor, Right? And so like, it was just like that and understanding like Asian and Asian American breaking that down, right? And being Filipino very specifically breaking that down, that all came about from me being in theater. And so like, I, I'm, I owe my, my life to it if you, and, and because I've, yeah, I didn't, you know, it's so funny how the title of this is I Survived Theater School for me. It's, Yes, Yes.3 (54m 23s):And I also, it also allowed theater also gave, allowed me to survive. Yes.2 (54m 31s):Theater helped you survive. Yes. That's beautiful. So in this, in the, in this spectrum or the arc, whatever you wanna call it, of representation and adequate representation and you know, in all of our lifetimes, we're probably never gonna achieve what we think is sort of like a perfect representation in media. But like in the long arc of things, how, how do you feel Hollywood and theater are doing now in terms of representation of, of specifically maybe Filipino, but Asian American people. How, how do you think we're doing?3 (55m 3s):I think we, you know, I think that there's, there's certainly a shift. You know, obviously it, we'd like it to be quicker than faster than, than it has been. But that being said, there's certainly a shift. Look, I'm being, I'll be the first person to say there are many more opportunities that are available that weren't there when I started in this, in this business, people are starting to like diversify casts. And you know, I saw Haiti's Town, it was extraordinary, by the way. I saw six shows in New York in the span of six days out of, and this was not conscious of me. This is not something I was doing consciously. Out of the six shows, I saw every single show had 90% people of color.3 (55m 43s):And it wasn't, and I wasn't conscientious of it. I wasn't like, I'm going to go see the shows that like, it just happened that all I saw Hamilton, I saw K-pop, I saw, you know, a death of a Salesman I saw. And they all were people of color and it was beautiful. So there's definitely a shift. That said, I, for me, it's never, this may sound strange, it's not the people in front of the camera or on stage that I have a problem with. Like, that to me is a bandaid. And this is me speaking like an old person, right? I need, it needs to change from the top down. And for me, that's what where the shift needs to happen for me. Like all the people at top, the, the, the people who run the thing that needs to change. And until that changes, then I can expect to starter from1 (56m 25s):The low. It's so interesting cuz like, I, I, I feel like that is, that is, we're at a point where we'd love to like the bandaid thing. Like really people really think that's gonna work. It never holds. Like that's the thing about a bandaid. The longer the shit is on, it'll fall off eventually. And then you still have the fucking wound. So like, I, I, I, and what I'm also seeing, and I don't know if you guys are seeing it, but what I'm seeing is that like, so people got scared and they fucking started to promote execs within the company of color and othered folks and then didn't train them. And now are like, Oh, well we gave you a shot and you failed, so let's get the white kid back in that live, you know, my uncle's kid back in to, to be the assistant.1 (57m 6s):And I'm3 (57m 7s):Like, no people up for success is a huge thing. Yeah. They need to set people up for success. Yes, yes, for sure.2 (57m 12s):Yeah. So it's, it's performative right now. We're still in the performative phase of1 (57m 16s):Our, you3 (57m 17s):Know, I would say it feels, it, it can feel performative. I I'm, I'm definitely have been. I've experienced people who do get it, you know what I mean? It's just, Sunday's a perfect example of somebody who does get it. But that being said, like again, it needs to, we need more of those people who get it with a capital I like, you know, up at the top. Cause again, otherwise it's just performative, like you said. So it's,1 (57m 38s):Does it make you wanna be an exec and be at the top and making choices? Yeah,3 (57m 42s):You know, I've always, people have asked me, you know, people have asked me what is the next thing for me. I'd love to show run. I've, I just, again, this is the, this is the stem part of me, right? Like, of us, like is I'm great at putting out fires, I just have been that person. I'm good with people, I'm, I'm, you know, and I've, I, you know, it's, it's, it's just one of those things that like I, I see is a, is a natural fit. But until that happens, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm also, you know, a professor is very much a version of show learning. So I've been doing that every day.1 (58m 14s):We talk about how, cause you've mentioned it several times about playing children into your thirties. So a lot, we have never had anyone on the show that I'm aware of that has had that sort of thing or talked about that thing. They may have had it. Mostly it's the opposite of like, those of us who like, I'll speak for myself, like in college, were playing old people at age, you know, 16 because I was a plus size Latina lady. And like that's what what went down. So tell me what, what that's what that journey has been like for you. I'm just really curious mostly, cuz you mentioned it a couple times, so it must be something that is part of your psyche. Like what's that about? Like what the, I mean obviously you look quote young, but there's other stuff that goes into that.1 (58m 57s):So how has that been for you and to not be, It sounds like you're coming out of that.3 (59m 1s):Yeah, I mean, look, all my life I've always been, you know, I mean I'm, I'm 5, 5 6 on a good day and I've always just been, I've always just looked young. Like, I mean, I mean, and I don't mean that like, oh I look young. Like I don't mean that in any sort of self-aggrandizing way. I literally just am one of those and you're built, like me, my one of my dear friends Ko, God rest his soul, he was always like, Rodney, you're like a little man look, looks, you're like a man that looks like a boy. And I was like that, that's hilarious. Like, and look, I for growing up little in, in high school and, and it, it was one of those things that I was always like, you know, like I was always chummy with people, but I was never sort of like, like there's a look, let's face it.3 (59m 45s):Like we're, we're a a a body conscious society and when you're, whatever it is, you can't help. There's implicit bias, right? Implicit bias, right. Supremacy at it's most insidious. And so I am not all my life, I was like always trying to, you know, the Napoleon complex of always trying to sort of be like, prove that I was older than I was.1 (1h 0m 6s):How did you do it? How did you do, how were you, what kind of techniques did you use? For3 (1h 0m 10s):Me, it wasn't even my technique. It was about doing everything and anything I possibly could. I mean, I was like president or vice president, I a gajillion different clubs. So it1 (1h 0m 18s):Was doing, it was doing, it was not like appearance. Okay, okay. So you3 (1h 0m 23s):Was actually yeah, I couldn't do anything about this. Yeah.1 (1h 0m 25s):Right. So yeah, but like people try, you know, like people will do all kinds of things to their body to try to, But for you, it sounds like your way to combat that was to be a doer, like a super3 (1h 0m 36s):Duer. And I certainly, I certainly like worked out by the time I got to college I was like working out hardcore to try and masculinize like, or you know, this. And, and eventually I did a gig that sort of shifted that mentality for me. But that being said, I think the thing that really, that the thing that, that for me was the big sort of change in all of this was just honestly just maturity. At some point I was like, you know what? I can't do anything about my age. I can't do anything about my height, nor do I want to. And when that shifted for me, like it just ironically, that's when like the maturity set in, right? That's when people started to recognize me as an adult.3 (1h 1m 17s):It's when I got got rid of all of that, that this, this notion of what it is I need to do in order for people to give me some sort of authority or gimme some sort of like, to l

It's been a minute since we've done a life update and I thought it was a good time for a check in chat as I'm approaching the almost one year mark of selling the company that I started when I was 20 years old… and sold when I turned 40.    Twenty years of owning and operating a business where I created beauty products and sold them online and through a home shopping network and in some of the largest national retailers and throughout many countries. And the professional side of the business where I manufactured and sold pro spray tanning equipment and products so industry pros could offer the pro spray tanning service to their clients or start their own business doing it.  It was a big business and had lots of moving parts and it was my first baby.   So I wasn't sure what selling it would mean for me personally and what I would do next.    I have an ideas book that I have on my body at all times and I would write notes about what set my soul of fire and I loved the most about being an entrepreneur and I wanted to sort of give it time to settle and figure out what I would start next.  And then, the craziest thing happened that's never happened in my business life before, I sort of fell into the next right thing.   Sharing my journey and so many inspirational tid bits along the way today.      In the first few months, I organized my life and kept notes on what I wanted to do and not do.  I knew I wanted to have freedom and experience new things and feel the HIGH of entrepreneurship again.  It looks different in ages and stages of your life.  I was done managing a big team for awhile- but love the opportunities that exist now.    Being an entrepreneur can be the most exciting thing ever- for so many reasons.  How it makes you feel, the money you can make, the freedom to design your life.    I'm so passionate about entrepreneurship because of what I can do for your life.    So I was sorting out my life and people would DM me on IG or get my email or ask questions through a mutual friend we have. Hey I know you did this in business, can I pick your brain etc.  Advice turned into coaching / mentoring …  I was like sure, but I can't commit to long term.    I know the value that all my experience in business brings. And I am so passionate about women building businesses and doing what they love.  And life FULLY so you feel alive and fulfilled. And not just living in routine.    To me, it all adds up to you being the strongest and best version of you.    What would it look like if you decided that you were going to take your business and grow it so it's life changing… or start a business that is?    What if you REALLY believed that you can make the crazy dream happen?  What if you committed to doing the hard work, and sacrificed NOW for freedom LATER (and forever!)  Instead of saying… when I hit X amount of followers then I will be ready to start.  Instead of saying… there are already too many people in this space, realize there is space for the unique you.    WHY are so many women unhappy with what they're doing?    To me, the meaning of life is doing the things you LOVE with the people you LOVE.  So if you aren't getting enough of that, we need to recalibrate.      Here are the things I've done: -opened a day spa and ran it for years and sold it once we were at max capacity.  -created a beauty brand - with over 24 products  -sold online through strategic marketing tactics  -sold on home shopping network -got into major retailers and supported their sales  -trained teams across the country -created another beauty brand with a top YouTube influencer  -increased sales year after year while having babies  Here are the ways I can help people in business:  -finding manufacturers, getting products made -making a game plan for your success  -getting in front of buyers for your product or service  -marketing your service in creative but low cost ways -working with influencers to sell your product or grow your brand  -start a podcast -start a blog  -the ins and outs of Shopify and selling online- direct to consumer  -growing retail business - store or spa set-ups  -using social media to promote your service/brand for FREE -working with brands / collaborations    For our 30 days together, we are business besties.  I help in whatever way you need. I just take 2 clients per month so we can really have the time to make huge strides in our month together. We first establish what works great with your business and what you think you need help with- what your life looks like now and what you want it to look like.    **Now if this isn't for you now, keep it in your back pocket because it could be one day.    It's not just about building the business but about building a life that you're obsessed with.  Knowing that what worked for you before might not work for you today.    Sometimes you just need someone from the outside to give you the push, or open doors for you.  That's the key.    As your business bestie, we work through the FEAR if we need to!    In the mentoring that I've done so far… this is what I've learned.   -Some people need help getting out of their own way.  Stop telling yourself the story about past mistakes or how someone else doubted you.  To let go of the judgment of yourself or shame around something.    -Other women needed an outside perspective.  OH MY GOSH how I needed this at points of my business.     -None of us are here to be the 70% version of ourselves.  We put up our own barriers that don't really exist.    -Rather than looking for outside validation, what if we realized we had the power to unlock it all - we've had the power the whole time.  We just have to make the decision.  Commit and work hard for.    -After enough practice, it becomes WHO you ARE.     -You have game changing MAGIC that just needs to be called on.    -Let's find out what you love the most and what you're best at and how to make it so big that it changes your life.    -Some people need help with the mindset shift… other people need help with the tactical and practical steps that it takes to reach the next level.      I'm so excited to meet more of you and chat to see if it could be a fit to work together.    Life after selling my business has been all unexpected in the best way possible.  It feels so great to fall into the next thing that feels SO RIGHT on SO MANY LEVELS.  I get to dive into different businesses and see huge progress quickly and see changes and how it affects lives.    And for me personally, life after selling my company, feels so rewarding because I'm using ALL of what I learned - the fails and the wins- and the people I know to help other people make magic happen.    And I believe so much in what I do because I've lived it and I've done it.  I worked 12 hours a day for most of my life.  I'm not a mentor or a coach that teaches about coaching.  No shade to anyone for doing what they do - but I've never understood business coaching without playing the game yourself- for a long while.  Because there is so much to do and learn.  I have the passion and the confidence because I have lived it and put in the hard work to learn what I don't know and get my mind right for the headaches and the struggles and the hard months and to learn what I don't know when I need to know it.    And the other thing I am working on!! Is sharing awesome things!  I love sharing the best things in a certain category or ways to make your life easier or gift more thoughtful gifts and all that.  So my team and I are working on a cool daily awesome thing concept that is unlike anything I've seen- just not done the same way so I'm super jazzed on bringing that out soon too.    And then we'll see what's next!!    DM me @LindsaysCloud on IG about working together or email me LindsayDickhout@gmail.com and let's chat about your business.  CHEERS to all the things that make us feel alive and the best versions of ourselves! 

When Anthony Trimino wanted to flee California, and move to a red state, the Lord gave him a vision. Next thing you know, he's a viral sensation for flying a sky banner above the Super Bowl. Find out why Anthony Trimino is "running back into the burning building", and running for governor of California. Thank you so much for downloading, subscribing and listening.Go give us a 5 star rating, would you??Please share these with your friends on social media so we can wake up America, save our country and save some souls too!! Please check out our partnerships and affiliates atWWW.SHESSORIGHTSHOW.COM Thank you to our sponsor Dillons Restaurants for your support.Thank you to MyPillow for your support. Go towww.mypillow.com, use our code SORIGHT for up to 66% OFF!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.Support This Show: https://patriotbarbie.com/support-2/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Josh Scott, country music artist, believer, father, husband and iHeart Radio song winner of the year! You would think he would be a household name, right? What happened? Josh wouldn't comply. Hear it all right here, and what he's risking to stand up for YOU. Subscribe, give us five stars, and follow us at www.shessorightshow.com Thank you to our very generous and faithful sponsor, Dillon's Restaurants. Four locations in Arizona. www.dillonsrestaurant.com Thank you so much for downloading, subscribing and listening.Go give us a 5 star rating, would you??Please share these with your friends on social media so we can wake up America, save our country and save some souls too!! Please check out our partnerships and affiliates atWWW.SHESSORIGHTSHOW.COM Thank you to our sponsor Dillons Restaurants for your support.Thank you to MyPillow for your support. Go towww.mypillow.com, use our code SORIGHT for up to 66% OFF!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.Support This Show: https://patriotbarbie.com/support-2/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Josh Scott, country music artist, believer, father, husband and iHeart Radio song winner of the year! You would think he would be a household name, right? What happened? Josh wouldn't comply. Hear it all right here, and what he's risking to stand up for YOU. Subscribe, give us five stars, and follow us at www.shessorightshow.com Thank you to our very generous and faithful sponsor, Dillon's Restaurants. Four locations in Arizona. www.dillonsrestaurant.com Thank you so much for downloading, subscribing and listening.Go give us a 5 star rating, would you??Please share these with your friends on social media so we can wake up America, save our country and save some souls too!! Please check out our partnerships and affiliates atWWW.SHESSORIGHTSHOW.COM Thank you to our sponsor Dillons Restaurants for your support.Thank you to MyPillow for your support. Go towww.mypillow.com, use our code SORIGHT for up to 66% OFF!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.Support This Show: https://patriotbarbie.com/support-2/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Join us for this fun interview of life behind the scenes, with famous American Sheriff, Mark Lamb and his beautiful wife, Janel! Mark & Janel speak candidly about their life in the public eye and the many challenges that go with it. Hear about Sherrif's decision to enter politics, his firm faith and parenting in the limelight! Then Janel gives us a look from a wife’s perspective ….. you don’t want to miss this one! Mark Lamb is best known as America's Sheriff, but it wasn’t always the case. After being a business owner for over a decade, he joined the world of Law enforcement in his thirties and has thrived as a leader in his field from day one. Valedictorian of his training class, Rookie of the Year, Officer of the year, Detective of the year, and now Sheriff of Pinal County, he has always risen to every challenge in his path. His empowering leadership style, western attire, and huge smile have set him apart from his peers and his no nonsense approach to law enforcement has made him a beacon of hope to many in his county and all over the world. Sheriff Lamb speaks all over the country to bring awareness to the border crisis, the dangerous erosion of the rule of law, and what we can do to weather the storms we encounter in our country as well as our personal life. With an attitude of “Fear Not, Do Right” and common sense approach, his patriotism is as infectious as his positive attitude. Janel Lamb As the wife of the American Sheriff, Janel Lamb is a bestselling author focused on Faith, Family, and Freedom. Originally from Minnesota, she has made Arizona her home since 1981. Raising 5 children and working as a hairstylist, flight attendant, and “ jack of all trades”, Janel has carved out her niche to support her husband and kept the family rolling. She now speaks all over the country as a voice for dreaming big, even if you don’t feel like you have it “all figured out” just yet, while staying true to who you are in the process. As a Law Enforcement and political spouse, she shares personal stories of wins and losses, spreads a message of hope, and that we are all in this together! Website: sheriffswife.com (to order books) Instagram: @americansheriff @missus.Janel.lamb fB:Sheriff Lamb Thank you so much for downloading, subscribing and listening.Go give us a 5 star rating, would you??Please share these with your friends on social media so we can wake up America, save our country and save some souls too!! Please check out our partnerships and affiliates atWWW.SHESSORIGHTSHOW.COM Thank you to our sponsor Dillons Restaurants for your support.Thank you to MyPillow for your support. Go towww.mypillow.com, use our code SORIGHT for up to 66% OFF!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.Support This Show: https://patriotbarbie.com/support-2/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What is a parent to do in these dangerous and threatening times, where our kids are actively being preyed upon? We must be proactive and ready to defend! Join us as we interview Kevin Coles, Founder of Raising Tactical Daughters, a man committed to creating a safer world for all women. Kevin was so moved by becoming a girl-dad, he created a state-of-the-art program for women of all ages, to learn how to defend themselves with or without a weapon. His daughter started with nerf guns!

After coming into notoriety for refusing to comply with the state of Oregon draconian COVID-19 lockdown, Lindsey Graham was catapulted into the national spotlight. She made it acutely clear that she would provide for her family, which meant her salon was going to be open for business regardless of lockdowns. This bold act was the spark that ignited a national conversation about the rights of business owners that is still ongoing. Brandie Barclay joined the radio and podcast industry as a faith-based host in response to a divine calling to empower women. As she spoke peace into the struggles bombarding women in today's toxic culture, she couldn't ignore the undeniable correlation between her faith and American freedom. This is God's country, founded wholly on Christian principles. Together they are co-hosts of the She's So Right podcast!   In this episode, Lindsey, Brandie and Brad discuss the toxic liberal agenda at hand in our America today. Listen in and lean in and learn from these awesome ladies.   00:00 Intro 02:20 Follow Lindsey and Brandie @brandiebarclay @reallindseygraham 04:12 Kari Lake for governor and how you can help (https://www.karilake.com ) 05:52 Bomb: $5 matters to all of us 09:10 CNN in your house all day long 17:00 Destruction from the inside out 24:00 The airlines 32:00 Masks 39:30 Elections 45:30 Pro-Freedom, Pro-America 48:30 Vaccinations 51:53 “I am going to trust my immune system and I am going to trust God.” - Lindsey Graham 55:51 God and his name 01:01:53 Seek and he shall find 01:08:10 Listen into She's So Right, and buy the book TARGETED 01:14:00 “The nonsense” 01:20:23 One piece of advice for the bombsquad  

Tune in to hear Special Guest, Kevin Tinters inspirational story of walking the walk as a young family man who chose to follow Gods’ call IN ALL AREAS of his life! Kevin decided to take action, leave the status quo, creating the life he always wanted for his family and now has Uncommon Freedom to bless so many others. www.BekandKev.com Thank you so much for downloading, subscribing and listening.Go give us a 5 star rating, would you??Please share these with your friends on social media so we can wake up America, save our country and save some souls too!! Please check out our partnerships and affiliates atWWW.SHESSORIGHTSHOW.COM Thank you to our sponsor Dillons Restaurants for your support.Thank you to MyPillow for your support. Go towww.mypillow.com, use our code SORIGHT for up to 66% OFF!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.Support This Show: https://patriotbarbie.com/support-2/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It’s undeniable! The MAGA Movement is something we have never before seen in the history of the United States! As proud Trump voters and supporters, we often hear that our patriotism has become worship. In this show we give our thoughts on THAT!

A round table discussion with a couple who have real life experience with communism and the affects it has on individuals and families! We cannot let communism take over America!!Ben and Tiffany both grew up in Christian homes , were first born, and the similarities stop there. Tiffany was being raised in the comforts of America in the 80’s and Ben was waiting bread lines, being raised under the communist rule of Ceaucescu in Romania. By the grace of God the Eneas family would find their way to the United States as well. Ben and Tiffany ended up in the same private school and literally after jr. high, the rest is history. They married at 19, have been married 21 years. They have 2 beautiful daughters Left the NW to escape the grey skies and the oppressive politics that went against their beliefs. They currently reside in Sunny Arizona and are loving the freedom and sunshine! Listen in as Ben shares his childhood running from a communist country that imprisoned most of his family, and what we need to do to fight it right here on American soil! Thank you so much for downloading, subscribing and listening.Go give us a 5 star rating, would you??Please share these with your friends on social media so we can wake up America, save our country and save some souls too!! Please check out our partnerships and affiliates atWWW.SHESSORIGHTSHOW.COM Thank you to our sponsor Dillons Restaurants for your support.Thank you to MyPillow for your support. Go towww.mypillow.com, use our code SORIGHT for up to 66% OFF!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.Support This Show: https://patriotbarbie.com/support-2/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Are you ready to be inspired? I mean, are you truly ready? You cannot listen to Tony's fierce and unapologetic fire for constitutional freedom, without knowing that you too, need to take one step farther, be stronger and completely defy the tyranny that has struck America. Get ready to feel empowered and emboldened to rise up like never before in a fight for our future and our children's future, all starting with an Italian restaurant in Huntington Beach. Tony comes from other business industries, and unexpectedly entered the restaurant industry just a few years ago. His mother opened 'Basilico's Pasta e Vino' in 1999 at its original location, and when she fell seriously ill (she is still alive), Tony designed, built and gifted her a larger and newly designed restaurant at its current location in Huntington Beach, CA, as a tribute to her - one that would carry forward her legacy for many years to come. The new Basilico's opened in November 2017. The moment Tony heard about an impending lockdown, he refused to comply on any level. He has openly and even provocatively defied all mandates since the shutdowns began on March 19, 2020. He has not only defied all lockdowns, but attacked them aggressively with his actions, taunting, shaming, mocking and daring the enemies of freedom, while operating fully without any restrictions, and even banning masks. He pledged in honor of our nation's founders and our military men and women, that he would commit his business as a constitutional battleground in defense of Liberty and Freedom. Tony welcomed the opportunity to go head to head with who he calls 'Gavin Pelosi', and take on all federal. state, county and city officials who looked to enforce lockdown mandates and wage tyranny on American citizens. In doing so, he was willing to sacrifice all of Basilico's assets for his stand, risking license revocations, fines, criminal action and even jail in his fight for what he says is for something so much bigger than ourselves. Thank you so much for downloading, subscribing and listening.Go give us a 5 star rating, would you??Please share these with your friends on social media so we can wake up America, save our country and save some souls too!! Please check out our partnerships and affiliates atWWW.SHESSORIGHTSHOW.COM Thank you to our sponsor Dillons Restaurants for your support.Thank you to MyPillow for your support. Go towww.mypillow.com, use our code SORIGHT for up to 66% OFF!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.Support This Show: https://patriotbarbie.com/support-2/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Who is funnier? Brandie, Lindsey or Braeden? Spoiler alert, its not your hosts. Braeden, the most mature and relatable 20 year old we've ever met, keeps us laughing while we attempt to interview what seems to be the most accomplished young man in America. This hilarious jokester makes today's toxic environment seem a little less gloomy, as he brings satire and sarcasm to every sentence. Braeden Sorbo is a 20-year-old author, actor, and all around entertainer. Acting since the age of 15, Braeden has received great acclaim for his honest portrayal of Gus Harkins in the movie “Let There Be Light.” His most recent project, Left Behind: Rise of the Antichrist, is slated to release in theaters this fall. A homeschool graduate, Braeden is also a published author, with his book, “The BS Guide To Politics, Understanding Current Events through Sarcasm.” When he’s not writing books or acting in movies, you can find Braeden in the gym powerlifting, editing and creating content, or streaming live to his followers on Twitch. Braeden currently resides with his family (dad: Kevin Sorbo and mom Sam Sorbo) in west palm beach Florida. @braedensorbo Thank you so much for downloading, subscribing and listening.Go give us a 5 star rating, would you??Please share these with your friends on social media so we can wake up America, save our country and save some souls too!! Please check out our partnerships and affiliates atWWW.SHESSORIGHTSHOW.COM Thank you to our sponsor Dillons Restaurants for your support.Thank you to MyPillow for your support. Go towww.mypillow.com, use our code SORIGHT for up to 66% OFF!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.Support This Show: https://patriotbarbie.com/support-2/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.