Deviate with Rolf Potts

“If you’re someone who’s always dreamed of going to Mars but you don’t have the time to become an astronaut, you can just visit the Atacama Desert.” –Mark Johanson In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Mark talk about how Mark became interested in the Atacama Desert, and his experience in other world deserts (1:45); what Mark sought when he traveled through the region (16:00); what it’s like to experience the area, and why it’s known as “Mars on Earth” (26:00); what travelers can do there, and what it’s like for Mark to live in Chile (36:30). Mark Johanson (@markonthemap) is an American journalist and travel writer based in Santiago, Chile. His first book is Mars on Earth: Wanderings in the World's Driest Desert. Notable Links: Atacama Desert (desert plateau located in Chile) Coober Pedy (town in the Australian Outback) Desert Solitaire, by Edward Abbey (book) The English Patient, by Michael Ondaatje (book) The Songlines, by Bruce Chatwin (book) Man in the Landscape, by Paul Shepard (book) Chinchorro mummies (ancient remains in the Atacama Desert) Qhapaq Ñan (Inca road system) Arica (province in Chile) Altiplano (Andean Plateau) Lands of Lost Borders, by Kate Harris (book) Pan-American Highway (road network) Cusco (city in Peru) San Pedro de Atacama (town in Chile) Elqui Valley (wine and astronomy region in Chile) Gabriela Mistral (Nobel Prize-winning poet) Pisco (fermented spirit made from grapes) Pisco sour (cocktail) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Travel does not require leaving your city or state or country, but it does require leaving your comfort zone. And that can happen a block or two away from where you live.” –Chloe Cooper Jones In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Chloe talk about why a section about “slum tourism” was cut out of Rolf’s newest book The Vagabond’s Way (2:30); how so much of what we talk about when we talk about travel has industrialized middle-class presumptions (7:30); the motivations and ethical considerations that underpin seeking out disadvantaged neighborhoods as a traveler (15:00); how preconceived narratives and “cultural extraction” often motivates people’s experience in a city, in ways that do not always benefit the city (25:00); what “dark tourism” and “voluntourism” are, and what the ethical ramifications are for travelers (32:00); and the difference between articulating ideals, and the work of acting on those ideals (45:00). Chloe Cooper Jones (@CCooperJones) is the author of Easy Beauty: A Memoir. She has been a Pulitzer Prize finalist in Feature Writing, and was the recipient of a Whiting Creative Nonfiction Grant, as well as a Howard Foundation Grant from Brown University. Notable Links: Integrating love of travel & love of home (Deviate episode 210) The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) The Most Beautiful Walk in the World, by John Baxter (book) Slum tourism (tours to poor areas of a city) Poetics, by Aristotle (dramatic theory) Republic, by Plato (Socratic dialogue) Immanuel Kant (philosopher) Slumdog Millionaire (2008 movie) Apartheid (system of institutionalized racial segregation) Favela (slum in Brazil) Yelp (crowd-sourced business review app) Dark tourism (tourism to places associated with tragedy) 1990 Hesston tornado outbreak (Kansas weather event) Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum (tourism attraction in Cambodia) Saw (movie franchise) Voluntourism (volunteering-themed travel) Hurricane Katrina (2005 Gulf Coast weather event) Lower Ninth Ward (New Orleans neighborhood) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“The most difficult part about traveling the world isn't actually the logistics of a trip—it's finding the courage to go in the first place.” —Matt Kepnes In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about how his travel style has changed over the years, and how fears affect people’s travels (1:00); strategies for saving money on the road (10:30); and strategies for finding activities on the road, and where to start a long-term journey (19:30). Matt Kepnes (@nomadicmatt), commonly known as “Nomadic Matt,” is a travel blogger and the New York Times bestselling author of Travel the World on $75 a Day and Ten Years a Nomad. Notable Links: The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Levison Wood (explorer) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Home exchange (lodging service) Trusted Housesitters (lodging service) Travel Ladies (lodging app) EatWith,com (hospitality service) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We do a lot of writing alone, in our own space. But writing is not a solitary practice. The business of writing requires a community.” –Angelique Stevens In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Angelique talk about what her writing life is like in the decade since she first took Rolf’s Paris class, with the ambition of becoming a travel writer, and how her travel book transformed into something different (2:00); how Angelique gave herself permission to write about herself in an honest way, and what craft lessons have helped her writing (8:00); and Angelique’s reading habits as a writer, her writing process, and how she came to think of herself as a writer (23:00). Angelique Stevens‘ is creative writing professor whose nonfiction has been published in Best American Essays two years in a row (2022, edited by Alexander Chee and 2023 edited by Vivian Gornick), Granta, LitHub, The New England Review, and a number of anthologies. Notable Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s annual writing classes) Zapatistas (political group in in Chiapas, Mexico) Bootstrapping myth (narrative about self-starting process) Haudenosaunee (Iroquois indigenous people from the Northeast U.S) Zora Neale Hurston (American writer) Toni Morrison (American novelist) Melissa Febos (American writer) Honor, by Thrity Umrigar (book) The Situation and the Story, by Vivian Gornick (book) A Little Devil in America, by Hanif Abdurraqib (book) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Anybody with curiosity and wanderlust can have their own Hippie Trail. They just need to get away from home, embrace the world, and have an adventure.” –Rick Steves In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Rick talk about Rick’s 1990s book Asia Through the Back Door, and how Rick recently rediscovered the old Asia travel journals he kept as a young man (2:30); how Rick prepared for the journey in the era before there were many guidebooks to the regions he was headed (9:30); what the experience of travel was like for Rick and his friend Gene on the Hippie Trail, including spiritual experiences (18:00); how travel can expand your sense of community, and diversify your sense for what wealth and poverty is (28:00); Rick’s first experience of smoking hash on the Hippie Trail, and how it gave him an appreciation for the joy of travel (34:00); and what lessons Rick brought home from the experience (39:00). Rick Steves (@ricksteveseurope) is a travel expert, author, and TV host who specializes in Europe. His newest book is On the Hippie Trail: Istanbul to Kathmandu and the Making of a Travel Writer. Notable Links: Kevin Kelly on the lost world of 1970s Asia (Deviate episode) Travel can be a way to see the future, with Kevin Kelly (Deviate episode) Vagabonding pioneer Ed Buryn (Deviate episode) Hippie trail (Asia travel route in the 1960s and 1970s) Asia Through the Back Door, by Rick Steves (book) Iranian revolution (1979 overthrow of U.S. backed government) Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (conflict that started in 1979) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Lonely Planet (guidebook publisher) Rick Steves’ Europe (TV show) Bucket shop (wholesale of air tickets) The Man Who Would be King (1975 film) ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) LCMS (Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod) Bread for the World (Christian advocacy organization) Herat (city in Afghanistan) Freak Street (neighborhood near Durbar Square in Kathmandu) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“My life has often forced me to follow the Super Bowl in unusual circumstances. The first Super Bowl found me in boarding school in England, huddled under my bedclothes with an illegal transistor radio.” –Pico Iyer In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about the novelty of two travel writers talking about the Super Bowl, and Pico’s NFL fandom (4:00); how sports can be a therapeutic diversion from the more serious aspects of life, and which players are Rolf and Pico’s all-time favorites (13:00); Pico and Rolf’s old articles for Sports Illustrated, and how narratives attach themselves to sporting contests (21:00); and what Pico’s plan and predication is for the 2025 Super Bowl (32:30). Pico Iyer (@PicoIyer) is a novelist, essayist, and author. His newest book is Aflame: Learning from Silence. Notable Links: A personal history of being a lifelong pro-sports fan (Deviate Super Bowl special 2020) The Native Americans that beat the NFL Giants (Deviate Super Bowl special 2023) Sports, superstitions, and sacraments (Deviate Super Bowl special 2024) Pico Iyer on solitude, stillness, and silence (Deviate episode) Pascal’s wager (philosophical argument) Edgar Allan Poe (American poet) Wichita North (high school in Kansas) Sports Illustrated (magazine) Eton’s Brutal, Incomprehensible Wall Game, by Pico Iyer (1995 article) Murder of football player in Kansas shakes town, by Rolf Potts (2012 article) Ralph Henry Barbour (early 20th century sports fiction writer) Notes On the Narrative Conundrum of Baseball Fandom, by Rolf Potts (article) Vin Scully (sportscaster for the LA Dodgers) Chick Hearn (sportscaster for the LA Lakers) Bill Simmons (podcaster) Nick Wright (sportscaster) 2014 American League Wild Card Game (Royals-A’s baseball playoff game) Wesley Morris (media critic) NFL football links: Baltimore Ravens (NFL football team with literary mascot) Derrick Henry (NFL running back) Tony Romo (retired NFL quarterback and commentator) Chris Collinsworth (retired NFL wide receiver and commentator) Jared Goff (NFL quarterback for the Detroit Lions) Josh Allen (NFL quarterback for the Buffalo Bills) Super Bowl I (first AFL–NFL World Championship Game) Max McGee (former NFL end for the Green Bay Packers) Super Bowl LI (2017 Falcons-Patriots Super Bowl) Super Bowl LV (2021 Chiefs-Buccaneers Super Bowl) John Brodie (former NFL quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers) Brock Purdy (NFL quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers) Barry Sanders (retired NFL running back for the Detroit Lions) Joe Montana (former NFL quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers) Saquon Barkley (NFL running back for the Philadelphia Eagles) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“In solitude, I often feel closer to the people I care for than when they're in the same room.” –Pico Iyer In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about how the best travels are often counterbalanced with a kind of stillness, in which one can find one’s “best self” (3:00); Pico’s decades-long experiences with monks in a California monastery, the benefits of a “childlike attitude” toward life, and how “fire” can be a metaphor for spiritual life (12:00); how Pico’s solitude is informed by, and in conversation with, nature (22:00); Pico’s engaged relationship with spiritual communities, even though he is not religious (30:00); the “counterculture” spiritual tradition that grew up around Big Sur, California, and the power of longing (39:00); and how solitude can be a gateway to other people (47:00). Pico Iyer (@PicoIyer) is a novelist, essayist, and author. His newest book is Aflame: Learning from Silence. Notable Links: Pico Iyer on what Japan can teach us about life (Deviate episode 73) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Henri Nouwen (writer and theologian) New Seeds of Contemplation, by Thomas Merton (book) The 14th Dalai Lama (spiritual leader) The Snow Leopard, by Peter Matthiessen (book) Richard Powers (novelist) Desert Fathers (early Christian hermits and ascetics) Sign of Jonas, by Thomas Merton (book) Days of Heaven (1978 film) 4′33″ by John Cage (musical composition) New Camaldoli Hermitage (hermitage in Big Sur, California) Rigveda (ancient Indian collection of hymns) The Woman Lit by Fireflies, by Jim Harrison (book) Sarmoung Brotherhood (esoteric Sufi brotherhood) Henry Miller (novelist) Esalen Institute (retreat center in Big Sur) Bittersweet, by Susan Cain (book) Leonard Cohen (songwriter) Ludwig Wittgenstein (philosopher) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Syria is a mix of everything. There are multiple Christian cultures, multiple Muslim cultures, and multiple languages. It’s the crossroads of the world. It made for some of my best travel memories from that time of my life.” —Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate (which was remixed from an episode of Ari Shaffir’s You Be Trippin’ podcast), Rolf and Ari talk about when and why Rolf traveled to Syria back in the day, and what it was like when he got there (3:30); his experience in staying in a Christian monastery in the mountains outside of Damascus (18:30); Rolf’s journey to the Tigris River, his experience with the Kurds he met in a Syria-Turkey border town, and the types of food on offer in Syria (28:30); Rolf’s enjoyable experience of watching the movie Con Air on a long-distance bus in Syria, and his experience of going to a Sudanese refugee church in Damascus (37:00); Rolf’s experience of accepting hospitality from Syrian Kurds, the experience of eavesdropping on American music at an Aleppo hotel, and what it’s like to watch American movies in other countries (47:00); old travel clothing and gear that Rolf still uses 25 years on, and Rolf’s travel tips and next destinations (1:07:00). Ari Shaffir (@AriShaffir) is a comedian, writer, podcaster, and actor. He is the host of theYou Be Trippin’ podcast,. His latest comedy special, JEW, is available on YouTube. Notable Links: Ari Shaffir on Deviate (archive of podcast episodes) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s travel memoir classes) 2011 Syrian revolution (protests and uprisings in Syria) Five Pillars of Islam (fundamental religious practices) Alawites (Arab ethnoreligious group) Ba’athism (Arab nationalist ideology) Qamishli (city on the Syria-Turkey border) Greater Kurdistan (geo-cultural region) Deir Mar Musa (Syriac Catholic monastery) Traveler ideals and hospitality in Syria (Deviate episode) Suicide door (style of automobile door) KDP (Kurdistan Democratic Party) No-fly zone (area protected from specific aircraft) Fuul (Egyptian stew of cooked fava beans) Con Air (1997 movie) Hannibal Lecter (fictional character) Second Sudanese Civil War (1983-2005 conflict) Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (book) Ibn Battuta (14th century Arab traveler) Benjamin of Tudela (12th century Jewish traveler) Anthem Soul (Rolf’s 2001 radio essay about Syria) James Brown (American singer) Djellaba (unisex robe worn in North Africa) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) Tortuga (travel backpack brand) Vanuatu (South Pacific island nation) Animism (belief system) Cargo Cult (Melanesian spiritual movement) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“In El Salvador, I dropped $5 out of my pocket at the border, and some guy came running up to me. At the beginning of the trip I would have been surprised by that. But by that point I would have been surprised if it didn’t happen.” —Matt Savino In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about how the first version of his travel book was way too long, and what he ended up editing out (6:00); the origins of Matt’s Central America road trip, why he ended up turning it into a book, and how he ended up taking Rolf’s Paris class (12:00); how Matt’s “Spreadsheet of Pain” helped him edit his book down to manageable size, and how historical research helped his narrative (17:00); how he wrote about a road trip that didn’t actually reach its objective, and how he tried to model his narrative on Bill Bryson’s writing (26:00); how Matt used a hybrid publisher to get his travel book into the world in two years (31:00); the challenges, idiosyncrasies, and creative joys that come with creating a hybrid published book (39:00); how AI bots determined that Matt had “plagiarized” what turned out to be his own book (54:00); and Matt’s advice for people interested in hybrid publishing (60:30). Matt Savino (@ushuaia_or_bust) is the author of Land Without a Continent: A Road Trip through Mexico and Central America. He can be contacted via his website. Notable Links: Paris travel memoir writing workshop (Rolf’s writing classes) Matt’s Spreadsheet of Pain (note explainer tab at the bottom) No Baggage Challenge (Rolf’s 2010 blog and video series) Justin's elephant-poop cold remedy (2010 video) Walking every single street in NYC (Deviate episode) The Sweet Superstition of Rooting for the Royals, by Rolf Potts (essay) Van Life Before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Developmental editing (pre-publication writing support) Hybrid publishing (assisted self-publishing) Jew (comedy special by Ari Shaffir) Perhapsing (nonfiction narrative strategy) Illumify Media (hybrid publisher) Cliff Clavin (fictional character on Cheers) IngramSpark (self-publishing book company) Kindle Direct Publishing (e-book publishing platform) Authors, books, and agents mentioned: Bill Bryson (author) Julie Pesano (travel writer and teacher) Cole Kazdin (writer and writing coach) Who Killed the Bishop? by Francisco Goldman (book) Blood of Brothers, by Stephen Kinzer (book) Turning the Tide, by Noam Chomsky (book) A Walk in the Woods, by Bill Bryson (book) Chloe Cooper Jones (author) Eddy L. Harris (travel author) James Faccinto (book publicist and former Paris student) April Eberhardt (literary agent and publishing consultant) AWOL on the Appalachian Trail, by David Miller (book) Pati Jinich (chef, author, and TV host) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“When we got into this, we didn’t know how to make videos. That’s a skill we’ve had to learn, because the industry has changed so much, from photos to videos. We are still learning all the time.” —Ann Howard In this episode of Deviate, Rolf, Mike, Ann and Kiki talk about they got started traveling as a couple, how they made it affordable, and how they made the transition into the world of content creation (2:15); how to navigate recording and sharing travel experiences that go wrong, including relationship dynamics (9:30); how to make travel “sustainable” in the personal and creative sense of the word (17:00); the advantages of having a “niche” as an influencer, and how sponsored travel works (24:30); and what makes travel influencers stand out from others, and the importance of learning new skills (34:00). Mike & Anne Howard are on The World's Longest Honeymoon, traveling for the last 13 years through 80 countries across all 7 continents. They have written and photographed a National Geographic book on couples adventure travel, Ultimate Journeys for Two, as well as the glamping guidebook, Comfortably Wild. Notable Links: The 10-Year Honeymoon (video) Glamping (upscale camping style) DMO (destination marketing organization) Brunei (country in SE Asia) Timor-Leste (country in SE Asia) How to Get Started Housesitting (article) Co-living (residential community living model) Michelin star (restaurant rating system) Favelas (impoverished neighborhoods in Brazil) World's Most Romantic & Sustainable Destinations (article) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Influencers are forever reinforcing the same images. They’re spending no time in the actual place, other than the requisite time to take the photo. From the local community’s point of view, these kinds of tourists bring very little value.” –Stuart McDonald In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Stuart talk about why Stuart chose to make his office in West Bali, and why South Bali has developed something of a bad reputation in terms of over-tourism (2:30); the mythos of Bali, how it became a “dreamscape” in the Western consciousness, and how it has changed in recent years (6:30); why certain areas in Bali become over-touristed, and how it has recently been affected by “influencers” (18:00); how black magic and ghosts are part of the belief systems of Balinese, yet few travelers ascertain this (24:00); and how much social-media travel content leaves out essential cultural context (31:00). Stuart McDonald (@travelfishery) is the co-founder of Travelfish.org, a travel planning website covering Southeast Asia, which he launched in 2014. He has been traveling in that part of the world since 1993, and living there since 1997. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Bali Hai Immigrant Song (YouTube mashup) Dutch presence in Bali (colonialist history) Eat, Pray, Love, by Elizabeth Gilbert (book) Canggu (coastal village in Bali) Fly-in fly-out [FIFO] (term for temporary laborers) Digital nomads (remote workers who travel) Lonely Planet (travel guidebook publisher) Infinity pool (type of swimming pool) National Geographic (magazine) GetYourGuide (tour company) Gates of Heaven (photogenic temple in Bali) Balinese sacred textiles Kastom (Melanesian traditional culture) Kava (sedative drink in Melanesia) Listicle (article structured as a list) Filterworld: How Algorithms Flattened Culture, by Kyle Chayka (book) Externality (indirect economic cost) This episode of Deviate is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. If you've ever planned a trip with multiple stops, you know that finding the right flights can be difficult. Between balancing travel logistics and cost, it often becomes impossible to build an itinerary that matches your travel goals.  AirTreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey. The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We’re having less enjoyable travel experiences, even as our photos show us having this amazing time, because we’re performing a version of travel for people who aren’t even there.” In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and David talk about the time-honored Americans pretending to be Canadian on the road, and why Americans at times have had a bad reputation abroad (2:30); strategies for avoiding becoming an “Ugly American” on the road (11:00); how a fixation with comfort can get in the way of life-enriching experiences on the road (18:30); how rituals like tipping, interacting with children, or choosing what to wear in public from culture to culture (22:00); how “voluntourism” and charity on the part of travelers is often not as selfless or effective as it pretends to be (30:00); how social media has a way of turning us into superficial, image-obsessed travelers (34:00); and how technology has transformed (and constrained) the way we all travel (39:00). David Martinez is an Associate Professor of Spanish and the director of the Center for Study Abroad at George Fox University in Newberg, Oregon. Notable Links: How to study abroad, even if you aren't a student (Deviate episode 221) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Flag-jacking (the practice of travelers to be from someplace they’re not) Paris Writing Workshop (Rolf’s travel-memoir writing classes) The Comfort Crisis, by Michael Easter (book) Misogi (Japanese Shinto ritual) Voluntourism (short-term charity work for travelers) Picturesque (aesthetic ideal) The Shallows, by Nicholas G. Carr (book) The Scent of Time, by Byung-Chul Han (book) George Fox Talks (podcast) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Traveling, for me, is all about destroying stereotypes and narratives about people and places.” – Matt Green In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt discuss Matt's mission to walk every street in New York City (3:00); walking across the entire United States and breaking stereotypes (12:00); bucket lists as a catalyst for action (28:00); and Matt's experiences walking in unfamiliar places and finding comfort in being a stranger (50:00). Matt Green is the wanderer who was profiled within the documentary The World Before your Feet, directed by filmmaker Jeremy Workman and produced by Jesse Eisenberg. Matt has walked across the entire United States and is currently in the process of walking every street in New York City. For more about Matt and his current project, check out https://imjustwalkin.com/. Notable Links: East of Eden, by John Steinbeck (book) East of Eden excerpt The Journey Home, by Edward Abbey (book) Cannery Row, by John Steinbeck (book) Cannery Row excerpt Gary House (traveler) The World Before Your Feet at Kanopy This episode is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. If you've ever planned a trip with multiple stops, you know that finding the right flights can be difficult. Between balancing travel logistics and cost, it often becomes impossible to build an itinerary that matches your travel goals.  AirTreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey. The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We need positive visions of how all this technology gets deployed, because what we visualize is what we build.” –Jane Metcalfe In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Jane talk about the pioneering work she did with Wired during the dawn of the “digital revolution” (3:00); how and why Jane’s professional focus shifted away from digital issues and into food and health issues in the ’00s (15:00); how science is trying to bring in diverse new data points and communication models to improve holistic health worldwide (28:30); how the health of the world’s humans is not separate from the health of the world’s animals, plants, and microorganisms, and how a bio-economy seeks to harness rather than extract the resources of nature (41:00); how regional and cultural differences affect how we perceive health, nutrition, and technology, and the importance of ethics in making scientific decisions (51:00). Jane Metcalfe (@janemetcalfe) is the co-founder of Wired Magazine, and the chair of the Human Immunome Project, a global non-profit working to decode the immune system in order to transform how we prevent, diagnose, and treat disease. Notable Links: Notes from a peripatetic salon across northern Thailand (Deviate episode) Hotwired (first commercial online magazine) HotBot (early web search engine) Louis Rossetto (writer, editor, and entrepreneur) Neuromancer, by William Gibson (science fiction novel) Snow Crash, by Neal Stephenson (science fiction novel) Cyberpunk (subgenre of science fiction) Electric Word (technology magazine) Digital Revolution (shift from mechanical to electronic technologies) Ethernet (computer networking technology) proto.life (newsletter covering the neobiological revolution) Neo.Life: 25 Visions for the Future of Our Species, by Jane Metcalfe (book) The Non-GMO Project (non-profit organization) David Eagleman (neuroscientist) Human genome (complete set of nucleic acid sequences for humans) Immunome (code set for proteins that constitute the immune system) Single-cell sequencing (context-driven technique for studying cells) Microbiome (community of microorganisms in a habitat) One Health (interdisciplinary approach to ecological health) Zoonotic disease (disease than can jump from non-humans to humans) Bioeconomy (use of biotechnology in the production of goods) CRISPR gene editing (technique to modify genomes of living organisms) Bioengineering (application of biology to create products) Interbeing (philosophical concept in Zen Buddhism) iGEM (worldwide synthetic biology competition) Gene drive (technology of genetic engineering) CRISPRcon (gene editing technology conference) Kevin Kelly (author and futurist) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“My parents passed away and it created this sense of recklessness in me, but in a positive way: I wanted to create a travel experience and push myself and learn about myself. Because you never know how long you’re gonna be around for.” –Daniel Troia In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Daniel talk about why Daniel chose to bicycle across America with no money or food, the privileges that set him apart from people who have to do it out of necessity, and how this kind of journey is a time-honored undertaking for people experiencing grief (2:00); the kinds of people Daniel met on the trip, how his vulnerability put him into contact with new and unfamiliar people and communities, and how visiting places in person increases empathy with the people who live here (12:30); what Daniel discovered while “dumpster diving,” and other surprises he found on the road (24:30); what it was like to self-document the trip DIY style with camera glasses, a GoPro, and a drone, and what experiences didn’t make it into the film (30:30); the lessons that Daniel brought home from the trip, where he plans to travel next, and his advice for people who want to create their own bike journey (44:00); and an “Easter Egg” about Daniel’s experiences in Kansas (49:00). Daniel Troia (@the_travelin_dude) is the director of We Are All in This Together, which documents his cross-country USA bicycle journey with no food and no money, in search of human connection. Notable Links: The Kindness of Strangers, by Mike McIntyre (book) The Epic of Gilgamesh (ancient Mesopotamian epic poem) Wild: From Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail, by Cheryl Strayed (memoir) The Way (2010 Martin Sheen movie) Dumpster diving (method of gathering discarded food) Dude Making a Difference, by Robin Greenfield Aldi (multinational discount supermarket chain) Tom’s Cartoons (art by unhoused person in Arcata, CA) Camera glasses (wearable camera) GoPro (action camera) East St. Louis (city in Illinois) Two Wheels To Freedom, by Daniel Troia (film) Paterson (city in New Jersey) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“The parent’s job as teacher on the road is to just create surface area between your kid and yourself and the world.”  –Julie Frieder In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Julie talk about what a “Wonder Year” is, how she got involved with family travel, and why traveling with children is possible and enriching for everyone involved (1:30); how to get started planning a family vagabonding journey, where to go, how long to go, how to save money, and why travel is good for your mental health (14:00); how to involve your kids in planning a travel journey, why being open to serendipity can wok better than micromanaging activities, what “worldschooling” is, and how to plan education activities on the road (27:00); how parents can learn alongside their kids on the road, and how to deal with challenges like homesickness and culture shock (39:30); the task of returning home after a long journey, and how travel makes us better parents (46:00). Julie Frieder is the coauthor (along with Angela Heisten and Annika Paradise) of Wonder Year: A Guide to Long-Term Family Travel and Worldschooling. Notable Links: The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Hydrogeology (geology focusing on groundwater) Temple Grandin (animal behaviorist) “Awe Is Good for Your Brain,” by Florence Williams (Outside article) WWOOF (World Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms) Unschooling (experiential learning method) HSLDA (homeschooling resource website) Worldschoolers (Facebook group) Lands of Lost Borders , by Kate Harris (book) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Look at any photo from a moment of supposed zeitgeist in American history, and it will be clear that not everyone in that moment represented the cutting-edge of culture.” –Rolf Potts In this essay episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about why he enjoys listening to Rob Harvilla’s podcast 60 Songs That Explain the ’90s at double-speed, but that he’s disappointed Rob has never alluded to Rolf’s own 1990s grunge band, Swizzlefish (1:45); Rolf describes his move from Kansas to the Pacific Northwest in the year 1990, at a very specific moment in America’s cultural zeitgeist (10:30); the origins of Swizzlefish, and how its formation with Rolf’s friends Ryan and Steve was compromised by the fact that Rolf and Steve were in no way musical virtuosos (18:30); the circumstances of the first Swizzlefish live show, and how it caused an immediate controversy on Rolf’s small Christian college campus (30:00); what Portland’s indie-rock scene was like in early 1993, and what kinds of bands Rolf and his friends saw there (35:00); how the second Swizzlefish concert resulted in the band getting banned from playing on its own college campus (42:00); Swizzlefish’s spring 1993 performance at Portland’s X-Ray Cafe, and how the middle-class normalcy of its fans evoked something true about grunge music (49:00); Rolf’s eventual move to Seattle to work as a landscaper, his experiences at a 1993 Nirvana show there, and the curiously enduring legacy of Swizzlefish more than 30 years later (57:30); and Rolf talks to music journalist Rob Harvilla about Rolf’s brief appearance in the 1992 horror movie Dr. Giggles, their respective experiences with 1990s music, and whether or not Kurt Cobain would have liked them (1:06:25). The 1993 Swizzlefish album Big Time Loser is available for streaming on Spotify, Apple Music, and YouTube Music. Rob Harvilla (@harvilla) is the creator of 60 Songs That Explain the ’90s, a book and a podcast that explore the pop culture of the decade through music. , Bands, musicians, and songs mentioned: “Love Buzz” (Shocking Blue song covered on Nirvana’s Bleach) Elliott Smith (singer-songwriter from Portland, Oregon) Heatmiser (Portland indie rock band) “Smells Like Teen Spirit” (Nirvana song) Jane’s Addiction (alternative rock band from LA) Mother Love Bone (Seattle rock band) Kurt Cobain (lead-singer of Nirvana) Jackyl (American hair-metal band) “Princess in a Cobweb” (song by Drunk at Abi’s) Sprinkler (Portland indie-rock band) “Should I Stay or Should I Go” (song by The Clash) Carrie Brownstein (musician and comedian) Bikini Kill (pioneering “riot grrrl” punk band) Big Daddy Meat Straw (Portland indie-rock band) “Smells Like Nirvana” (parody song by Weird Al Yankovic) “Holiday of Sparks” (song by Dimbulb) “Rock Collection” (song by Pond) Everclear (Portland rock band) Mia Zapata (Seattle punk singer murdered in 1993) “Scentless Apprentice” (1993 Nirvana song) Kim Deal (Ohio-born musician for The Pixies and The Breeders) Dookie (1994 Green Day album) 924 Gilman Street (all-ages punk-rock club in Berkeley) Rancid (Berkeley punk band) Avail (melodic hardcore punk band from Virginia) Other links: Malcolm McLaren (promoter and manager of the Sex Pistols) Hype! (1996 music documentary directed by Doug Pray) Twin Peaks (TV drama created by David Lynch) Grunge (alternative rock genre known as “Seattle sound”) George Fox College (pre-1996 name of George Fox University) Jumping freight trains in the Pacific NW (Deviate episode) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Brian Epstein (manager of The Beatles from 1962-1967) Sub Pop (Seattle-based indie-rock record label) X-Ray Cafe (1990s all-ages venue in Portland) Rap rock (hybrid music genre) Hardcore (punk rock subgenre) Portlandia (sketch-comedy TV show from the 2010s) This Present Darkness (Christian novel by Frank E. Peretti) Satanic ritual abuse (conspiracy theory and moral panic) Newberg (small Oregon college town) 1993 TIME Magazine grunge issue (featuring Eddie Vedder) Dr. Giggles (1992 horror movie) Singles (1992 Cameron Crowe movie)   The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber.  Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Something about the motion of walking is conducive to generating both ideas and conversation. You can empty your mind and open your mind at the same time.” —Kevin Kelly In this episode of Deviate, Rolf reports from a “Walk and Talk” across northern Thailand. Interviewees and conversation topics are listed by time-code below. Participant write-ups about (or alluding to) the 2023 Thailand Walk and Talk include: The Walk and Talk: Everything We Know, by Craig Mod Walk and Talk: Everything We Know (PDF document), by Kevin Kelly Walking the Heck out of Thailand, by Craig Mod Walk and Talk, by Derek Sivers Expanding Home, by Liz Danzico Where Do You Call Home?, by Jason Kottke 2023: Walking, by Dan Wang Why Not Pay Teachers $100,000 a Year?, by Daniel Pink Kevin Kelly (4:00-15:00) Kevin Kelly (@kevin2kelly) is a photographer, writer, and futurist, with much of his work centering on Asian and digital culture. His newest book is Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I'd Known Earlier. Travel can be a way to see the future (Deviate episode) Kevin Kelly on the lost world of 1970s Asia (Deviate episode) Wired (technology magazine) The Cotswolds (region in central Southwest England) Liz Danzico (15:00-27:45) Liz Danzico is VP of Design at Microsoft, and the Founding Chair of the MFA Interaction Design Program at the School of Visual Arts. Long-distance hiking at home (Deviate episode) The Death and Life of Great American Cities, by Jane Jacobs (book) Lets Drift (Kenyan hiking club) Hoka (brand of walking shoes) Silvia Lindtner (27:45-46:00) Silvia Lindtner is a writer, ethnographer, and Associate Professor at the University of Michigan. Her book Prototype Nation: China and the Contested Promise of Innovation was published by Princeton University Press in 2020. Seeking rural places (Deviate episode) Jiangxi (Chinese province) Guangdong (Chinese province) Yunnan (Chinese province) Salzburg (city in Austria) The Vulnerable Observer, by Ruth Behar (book) Anna Greenspan (media professor) Communitas (unstructured community of equals) Daniel Pink (46:00-52:00) Daniel Pink is a best-selling author of books on work, business, and life. His “Why Not?” project in collaboration with the Washington Post to aims to jolt America's imagination about possibilities. When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing, by Daniel Pink (book) Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us, by Daniel Pink (book) The Power of Regret, by Daniel Pink (book) Craig Mod (52:00-69:00) Craig Mod is an author and photographer who has written and photographed about his walks across Japan, his love of pizza toast, and his life in Japan. Walk Japan (tour company) Rich Roll (ultra-endurance athlete) The Glorious Boredom of My Walk in Japan, by Craig Mod (essay) Kissa by Kissa, by Craig Mod (book) Things Become Other Things, by Craid Mod (book) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We ‘massage’ the truth to make it fit the narrative we need it to fit in our lives.”  –Andrew McCarthy In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about how Andrew got started in travel writing, and how writing himself on the page helped him see himself in the world (2:30); when he does and doesn’t conflate certain details in the interest of a good story, and how he balances the “micro” and the “macro” elements of a travel story (12:30); how he decides who to write about, among the many people he meets on the road, which details do and don’t drive the narrative forward, and what it’s like to meet travelers who recognize him from his acting days (23:30); how Andrew structures his travel stories, and what travel storytelling in common with his work as a TV director (31:00); how he balances his writing and non-writing work in life, and how he mixes personal details with place details in his travel writing (38:00); and how memory can be fallible, and how to best write about family members (47:00). Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy) is an actor, television director and writer of such books as The Longest Way Home and Brat. His newest book is Walking with Sam: A Father, a Son, and Five Hundred Miles Across Spain. Notable Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s travel memoir classes) Andrew McCarthy on travel (Deviate episode) Andrew McCarthy Proust questionnaire (Deviate episode) Paul Theroux (travel writer and novelist) “Chasing the Black Pearl,” by Andrew McCarthy (Tahiti article) Gustav Mahler (classical composer) Don George (travel writer and editor) The Snow Leopard, by Peter Matthiessen (book) “A Slice of Paradise,” by Andrew McCarthy (Hawaii article) “A Slice of Ireland,” by Andrew McCarthy (Ireland article) “Steeped in Darjeeling,” by Andrew McCarthy (India article) Osprey (species of bird) Finisterre (peninsula in Spain) Communitas (unstructured community of equals) A Short History of Nearly Everything, by Bill Bryson (book) Less than Zero (1987 film starring Andrew McCarthy) Nut graph (journalism term) Joan Didion (American writer) Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (book) Claude Chabrol (French film director) Henry Miller (American novelist) Alison Steele (New York DJ known as “The Nightbird”) Vin Scelsa (broadcaster) Oliver Sacks (British neurologist and writer) Rob Lowe (American “Brat Pack” actor) “Courting Vienna,” by Andrew McCarthy (Austria article) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Unless we explore our neighborhood, we can't imagine what might be right under our noses, nor be able to celebrate it, mourn its demise, or take action.” –Alastair Humphreys In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Alastair Humphreys discuss the concept of his new book Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wilderness (1:30); what Alastair found on his close-to-home adventures in England (7:00); the surprises he found in industrial and post-industrial environments (13:00); how he learned to pay better attention to the natural environment in the areas he explored (19:30); “rights of access,” and how it affects hiking in Europe; and the idea of the “big here” versus the “small here” (25:00); how Alastair sought to embrace “stillness” during his experiment (33:30); how the changing of the seasons affected his experience of the local environments (40:30); and the role that imagination plays in having adventures close to home (48:00). Alastair Humphreys (@Al_Humphreys) is an English adventurer, author and motivational speaker. He is responsible for the rise of the idea of the microadventure – short, local, accessible adventures. His newest book, out this year, is Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wildness. Notable Links: Microadventure (local travel initiative) Industrial farming (agriculture practice) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) Rewilding (conservation biology) Korean DMZ (rewilded demilitarized zone) Seek (nature identification app) Merlin Bird ID (birdsong identification app) On Looking, by Alexandra Horowitz (book) Henry David Thoreau (naturalist and essayist) Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, by Annie Dillard (book) Mary Oliver (naturalist and poet) Right of way (public right to hike on private land) A Journey Around My Room, by Xavier de Maistre (book) Traveling in Place, by Bernd Stiegler (book) An Attempt at Exhausting a Place in Paris, by Georges Perec (book) Dustsceawung (Old English term for “contemplating dust”) Black Death (14th century pandemic) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“I hate the Kansas City Chiefs with a passion reserved only for things that I love.” —Tod Goldberg In this episode of Deviate, Rolf shares his 2002 NPR “Savvy Traveler” dispatch about trying to watch the Super Bowl in Thailand (3:00); then he and Tod Goldberg discuss how they became NFL football fans as kids in the 1970s, and how this affected their fandom later in life (8:00); how it could be difficult in the days before the Internet for kids to find information about NFL teams and players, and which books they read about the early days of pro football (23:00); the origins of the San Francisco 49ers and Kansas City Chiefs in upstart pro leagues, their more recent fortunes in the NFL, and how the last Chiefs Super Bowl appearance was nine months before Rolf was born (38:30); on watching Super Bowls from overseas and following the Chiefs (or 49ers) as adults, the strengths of the 2020 Chiefs and 49ers teams, and the emotional stakes of Super Bowl LIV (49:00); how the Chiefs have dominated the AFC in the four years since 2020, how this success has affected people's perception of them, and how the Chiefs' Midwesternness makes them different from other NFL dynasties (1:05:30); the role superstition plays in sports fandom, how some team fandom comes out of love for individual players, how fandom creates a leveling of social classes, and the merits of "fair weather" fandom (1:10:30). Novelist Tod Goldberg (@todgoldberg) is the New York Times bestselling author of over a dozen books, most notably the Gangsterland series of crime novels. He is also the director of the University of California-Riverside Palm Desert Low-Residency MFA. NFL games and players: Super Bowl LIV (2020 KC Chiefs versus SF 49ers NFL title game) Rolf Benirschke (San Diego Chargers placekicker in the 1980s) The Catch (touchdown reception in the 1981 NFC Championship Game) Christian “Nigerian Nightmare” Okoye (Chiefs fullback in the 1980s) Mike Mercer (NFL punter in the 1960s) Marshall Goldberg (Jewish Chicago Cardinals running back in the 1940s) 1934 NFL Championship Game, aka the “Sneakers Game” (title game) 1940 NFL Championship Game, (73-0 Bears-Giants title game) Steve Grogan (New England Patriots quarterback in the 1980s) Ed “Too Tall” Jones (Cowboys defensive end in the 1980s) Super Bowl IV (1970 Chiefs versus Vikings NFL title game) NFL Films: Super Bowl IV Highlights (sports documentary) Hank Stram (Chiefs coach from 1960-1974) Len Dawson (Chiefs quarterback in the 1960s and 1970s) Todd Blackledge (Chiefs 1983 draft-pick quarterback) Joe Montana (quarterback who won four Super Bowls with the 49ers) Super Bowl XLVII (2013 Ravens versus 49ers NFL title game) Patrick Mahomes (current Chiefs quarterback) Andy Reid (current Chiefs head coach) Jimmy Garoppolo (former 49ers quarterback) Super Bowl XVI (1981 49ers versus Bengals NFL title game) Jet Chip Wasp (pass play that helped the Chiefs win Super Bowl LIV) Other links: "Pandemic Love: A personal history of nostalgia" Deviate episode 142) Kumbh Mela (Indian Hindu pilgrimage celebrated every 12 years) Tod Goldberg on why sports is so emotionally affecting (Deviate episode) Matthew Zapruder (American poet and editor) West Coast offense (passing-oriented football strategy) Candlestick Park (former stadium that hosted San Francisco 49ers games) Tom Landry, Existentialist, Dead at 75, by Sarah Vowell (essay) Tecmo Bowl (1980s football video game) Sears Christmas Wish Book was great American literature (Deviate episode) Nerf (toy brand that made foam footballs) Championship: The NFL Title Games Plus Super Bowl, Jerry Izenberg (book) The Super Bowl Shuffle (rap song performed by the 1985 Chicago Bears) All-America Football Conference (professional football league from 1946-49) Los Angeles Dons (football team in the AAFC) American Football League (professional football league from 1960-69) Battle of New Orleans (1815 battle between British and US armies) Former Minnesota quarterback Joe Kapp gets in a fight (video) Lloyd C. A. Wells (pioneering scout for the Chiefs in the 1960s) Historically black colleges (pre-Civil Rights universities for African-Americans) Edgar Allen Poe (Baltimore poet whose poem inspired the Ravens mascot) 2014 American League Wild Card Game (Royals v. A's baseball game) "A Native American football team beat the 1927 NFL Giants" (Deviate episode) "How Mahomes Made 3rd & 15 Magic in Super Bowl LIV" (NFL Films doc) Ken Griffey Jr. (American baseball player) Lambeau Field (Sports stadium in Green Bay) Class: A Guide Through the American Status System, by Paul Fussell (book) 2015 World Series (baseball championship won by the Kansas City Royals) Golden State Warriors (NBA team based in San Francisco) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Billionaires can't take a week off? What's the point of having a billion dollars if they have fewer options than I do?”  –Tim Ferriss In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tim discuss common travel fantasies, and the fears that keep people from traveling (5:00); how we can redefine what "wealth" is and live fuller lives (18:00); why keeping a healthy perspective on information intake, technology, and "efficiency" is important, both on the road and in daily life (25:00); the "beginner's mind," and tips for writing and creativity (54:00);  the merits of going on foot and "getting lost" on the road, and how this figured into Rolf's writing classes (1:17:00); notions of "success," and how to definite the notion of success in a way that enhances one's way of being in the world (1:37:00); and Rolf's recommendations for drinks, food, documentaries, books, and poetry (1:50:00); Tim Ferriss (@tferriss) is a best-selling author and podcaster. General Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's summer writing classes) Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (audiobook) The Game Camera (short film cowritten by Rolf and Kristen Bush) Tim Ferriss on how to create a successful podcast (Deviate episode) Arnold Schwarzenegger on The Tim Ferriss Show LeBron James on The Tim Ferriss Show Cheryl Strayed on The Tim Ferriss Show Jerry Seinfeld on The Tim Ferriss Show Tortuga (bags design for long-term travel) Unbound Merino (travel clothing company) AirTreks (round-the-world flight planner) BootsnAll (online travel community) Interview Links: Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Man bites dog (aphorism about journalism) “War is God's way of teaching Americans geography” (quote) Beginner's mind (attitude of openness) Adaptation (2002 film) Anne Lamott (American author) Kurt Vonnegut (American author) The Hero's Adventure with Joseph Campbell (podcast remix) Flâneur (urban wanderer) Situationists (1960s social and artistic movement) Psychogeography (exploration strategy) Dave Chappelle (comedian) John Hughes (filmmaker) Rachel Kaadzi Ghansah (American essayist) Grizzly Man (2005 documentary film) Werner Herzog Reads Curious George (satire) Con Air (1997 film) Aimee Nezhukumatathil (poet) Naomi Shihab Nye (poet) Major Jackson (poet) Donald Hall (poet) Books mentioned: Walden, by Henry David Thoreau (book) The 4-Hour Work Week, by Tim Ferriss (book) The Art of Nonfiction, by Ayn Rand (book) Writing Tools, by Roy Peter Clark (book) To Show and to Tell, by Phillip Lopate (book) Screenplay, by Syd Field (book) Story, by Robert McKee (book) Save the Cat, by Blake Snyder (book) A Moveable Feast, by Ernest Hemingway (book) Leaves of Grass, by Walk Whitman (book) Good Hope Road, by Stuart Dischell (poetry) Alien vs. Predator, by Michael Robbins (poetry) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Sometimes it's good to sit still and let a place move through you instead of you moving through a place.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond's Way book club participants discuss how one can be vulnerable to new experiences on the road instead of micromanaging an itinerary (2:00); how monuments to mortality help us think of travel moments in an existential way (11:30); how we can take the mindset of travel back home with us when the journey is over, and how the experience of travel changes as you age (20:00); the role of ritual and ceremony in slow travel, and the simple things we have in common with our host cultures (30:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf's online book club signup The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) The Cotswolds (region in central-southwest England) Lake Maninjau (caldera lake in West Sumatra, Indonesia) Rendille people (Cushitic-speaking ethnic group in northern Kenya) Locals often perform a distilled version of their culture (Kenya dispatch) Père Lachaise Cemetery (largest cemetery in Paris) Frédéric Chopin (19th century Polish composer and pianist) The Catacombs (underground ossuaries in Paris) Mount Kenya (second-highest peak in Africa) What we hope to see in places can be at odds with reality (Mentawai dispatch) Long-distance hiking at home (Deviate episode) Isiah Pacheco (Kansas City Chiefs running back from Rutgers) Patrick Leigh Fermor (English traveler and writer) Richard Rohr (American Franciscan priest and writer) Marco Polo Didn't Go There, by Rolf Potts (travel book) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's creative writing classes) China and Mongolia with my parents (Deviate episode) Lets Drift (Kenyan hiking club based out of Nairobi) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“When asked to give advice to young people looking to become travel writers, I invariably tell them to go – alone – and live in a country where they don't speak the language.”  –Thomas Swick In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tom talk about the thematic limitations of memoir writing, and the early stages of Tom's career as a journalist (2:00); his decision to move to Poland for love, and his experiences living in Warsaw around the time of the Solidarity movement (9:30); the task of writing a travel memoir about events that happened decades ago, and how the American news cycles tends to ignore international matters (15:00); the task of getting started in travel writing in the twenty-first century (21:00); and how travel writers have the ability to bring a fresh eye to places that people who live there might miss (26:00). Thomas Swick (@roostertie) is an author and writer of The Joys of Travel, A Way to See the World, and Unquiet Days. His newest book is Falling into Place: A Story of Love, Poland, and the Making of a Travel Writer. Notable Links: The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Misery memoir (literary genre focusing on trauma) Aix-en-Provence (city in France) Alsace (region of eastern France) Trenton Times (newspaper in New Jersey) Watergate (political scandal) David Maraniss (American journalist and author) Pope John Paul II (Poland-born Catholic pope) Solidarity (Polish anti-authoritarian movement) Martial law in Poland (early 1980s reaction to Solidarity) Patrick Leigh Fermor (English traveler and author) Tim Cahill (American travel and adventure writer) Dave Barry (American humorist and author) Holiday Magazine (postwar travel magazine) Granta (British literary magazine) Holidays in Hell, by P.J. O'Rourke (book) Colin Thubron (British travel writer) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“One way of making famous landmarks more comprehensible is to look for surprises, good and bad, that go beyond what you are expected to encounter there, details that open you up to the raw imperfections of the encounter itself.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate – which is a redo of episode 229, which didn't air properly due to technical problems – Rolf and The Vagabond's Way book club participants discuss how to break out of standard tourist routines and see places in unexpected way (1:30); how to get beyond the transactional, "taxi drivers and bartenders" layer of travel (10:00); how to become more independent of technology and smartphones as a traveler and find the "wisdom of place" (16:00); and the travel photos Rolf wishes he had taken when vagabonding 20 years ago (23:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf's online book club signup The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Kalash people (tribe in Pakistan) Up Cambodia without a phrasebook, by Rolf Potts (essay) Henry Rollins Travel Slideshow (spoken-word tour) White Zombie's J. Yuenger on long-term travel (Deviate episode) Before Sunrise (1995 film directed by Richard Linklater) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's creative writing classes) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Not everyone who's lucky is talented and not everyone who's talented is lucky.”  –Tom Bissell In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tom talk about Tom's lack of travel experience when he joined the Peace Corps, and how he dealt with his early failures (2:30); the role that luck (as well as craft and obsessive reading) has played in his writing career (8:00); how, as a writer, to turn real-life people, including yourself, into convincingly human and honest nonfiction "characters" (16:00); Tom "failures" as a writer, the challenges of screenwriting, and the difficulty of writing books that sell (38:30); the book that Tom is most proud of, and how to get out of the success/failure dichotomy as a creative person (47:00); plus a post-interview segment about drinking in Paris (56:00). Tom Bissell is an American author, journalist, critic, and screenwriter. He is the author of such books as Chasing the Sea, Apostle, God Lives in St. Petersburg, Extra Lives, and The Disaster Artist. Notable Links: Rolf's Paris travel memoir workshops (annual classes) Salt and Fire (2016 Werner Herzog movie) Star Wars: Andor (TV series) Harper's Magazine (literary publication) Aral Sea (endorheic lake in central Asia) Steven Soderbergh (American film director) Ryszard Kapuściński (Polish journalist and author) A Sense of Direction, by Gideon Lewis-Kraus (travel memoir) "War Zones for Idiots", by Tom Bissell (essay) Lucasfilm (American film and TV company) Tony Gilroy (American screenwriter) Michael Clayton (2007 legal thriller movie) Greg Sestero (American actor and model) Tommy Wiseau (Polish-American filmmaker) The Room (film regarded as the worst movie ever made) Creative Types, by Tom Bissell (short story collection) The Father of All Things:, by Tom Bissell (memoir) Heraclitus (ancient Greek philosopher) Stoicism (school of Hellenistic philosophy) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (Russian writer and dissident) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“One way of making famous landmarks more comprehensible is to look for surprises, good and bad, that go beyond what you are expected to encounter there, details that open you up to the raw imperfections of the encounter itself.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond's Way book club participants discuss how to break out of standard tourist routines and see places in unexpected way (1:30); how to get beyond the transactional, "taxi drivers and bartenders" layer of travel (10:00); how to become more independent of technology and smartphones as a traveler and find the "wisdom of place" (16:00); and the travel photos Rolf wishes he had taken when vagabonding 20 years ago (23:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf's online book club signup The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Kalash people (tribe in Pakistan) Up Cambodia without a phrasebook, by Rolf Potts (essay) Henry Rollins Travel Slideshow (spoken-word tour) White Zombie's J. Yuenger on long-term travel (Deviate episode) Before Sunrise (1995 film directed by Richard Linklater) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's creative writing classes) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“One ironic anxiety of travel is that suddenly you're living in 'organic time' and you're not used to it.”  –Rolf Potts In this "vagabonding audio companion" episode of Deviate, remixed from Aaron Millar's Armchair Explorer podcast, Rolf talks about his earliest travel dreams, and what compelled him to finally take a vagabonding dream trip around North America by van in his early twenties (2:00); how travel expectations and planning are often at odds with the joy of what happens spontaneously on the road (8:30); the delightful surprises Rolf found on a recent trip to Sumatra and the Mentawai Islands (11:30); Rolf's experiences in Myanmar, and the importance of seeing time, rather than possessions, as our most important form of wealth in life (22:00); Rolf's early experiences in Southeast Asia, and his monthlong boat journey down the Mekong River (31:00); and how, at its best, travel teaches us to pay attention to life itself (35:00). The Armchair Explorer podcast features adventure storytelling set to music and cinematic effects. Notable Links: Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (book) The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Uinta Mountains (mountain range in Utah) Mardi Gras (annual celebration in New Orleans) Sumatra (island in Indonesia) "Travel in Sumatra is cheap and amazing" (dispatch) "Seeking crowds is better than crowd-sourcing" (dispatch) Mentawai Islands (archipelago in Indonesia) "Boredom is one of the greatest gifts of travel" (dispatch) Hornbill (tropical bird) Bessie Stringfield (20 century American motorcycle traveler) Bagan (UNESCO World Heritage Site in Myanmar) Mekong (river in Southeast Asia) "One Month on the Mekong," by Rolf Potts (travel essay) Henry David Thoreau (American essayist and philosopher) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“A wonderful aspect of traveling by train is the transactional relationship between passengers who feed off one another, picking up tips, offering advice, guarding each other's belongings, and generating a trust that is unique to railway travel.”  –Monisha Rajesh In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Monisha discuss how her interest in train-travel dates back to a series of journeys she took around India (1:30); her more recent experience of taking the Trans-Mongolian train across Russia and into Asia (14:00); what it was like to travel by train in North Korea, China, and Southeast Asia, and how they differ from European trains (28:00); what it was like to take trains across Canada and the United States, and which global trains Monisha likes best (45:00). Monisha Rajesh (@monisha_rajesh) is a travel journalist, and the author of Around India in 80 Trains, and Around the World in 80 Trains. She currently lives in London with her husband and two daughters. Notable Links: Indrail Pass (Indian rail-pass for foreign nationals) Saint Basil's Cathedral (church in Moscow's Red Square) Eurail Pass (rail-pass covering 33 European countries) Trans–Mongolian Railway (long-haul train route) Circum-Baikal Railway (railway in Russia's Irkutsk region) War and Peace (novel by Leo Tolstoy) Game of Thrones (fantasy TV series) Korean State Railway (train system in North Korea) Southwest Chief (American Amtrak route) German Baptist Brethren (Anabaptist group) Qinghai–Tibet railway (Asian train route) Skeena (Canadian passenger train service) Mandovi Express (train route in India) Flight shaming (environmental social movement) Sunset Limited (American Amtrak route) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We live in an age where you can take a series short flights inside a country to speed things up. You end up going to more places, but you experience less, because you're not really committed to that chicken bus full of really interesting people who want nothing more than to interact with you.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond's Way book club participants discuss the idiosyncrasies of crossing land borders and traveling overland (1:30); travelers' tendency to take dishonest photos of places, and how tourist destinations bend to tourists' expectations (8:00); the small inconveniences that keep travel interesting, even as we try to avoid them, and the idiosyncrasies of haggling overseas (14:00); how food can be a window into cultures and places for travelers (19:00); common scams that travelers encounter on the road (26:00); and the process of how Rolf assembled the meditations in The Vagabond's Way, and the concept of "walking until your day becomes interesting" (30:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf's Vagabond's Way online book club signup The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) YouCam Perfect (AI person-remover app) Kenny G (American smooth jazz saxophonist) Applebee's (American restaurant chain) Mentawai Islands (archipelago in Indonesia) Brent Nelson sandwich (bar food in Lindsborg, Kansas) Turkish Knockout, by Rolf Potts (travel essay) Camille Dungy (poet and writer) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Domestic travel to rural places can be as important as international travel that is more obviously cross-cultural.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Marci talk about how the best trips are guided by curiosity about eight key things, rather than checklists (2:00); what Marci has learned from several decades of writing guidebooks to rural and small-town Kansas, and how these places are worth fighting for (10:30); how urban people can better experience rural places (17:00); using your five senses as a traveler, and other strategies for exploring the nuances of new places (26:30); and seeing places as "mysteries to be solved" (37:30). Marci Penner (@GetRuralKansas) is the executive director of the Kansas Sampler Foundation, which preserves and sustains rural culture by educating Kansans about Kansas and networking and supporting rural communities. She is involved with the PowerUp Movement (empowerment of those 21-39 who are rural by choice), the Big Rural Brainstorm, and the We Kan! Conference. Notable Links: Kansas Guidebook for Explorers, by Marci Penner and Wendee Rowe (guidebook) Physiographic Regions of Kansas (map) 8 Wonders of Kansas (travel destinations) Skeleton Coast (coast area of Namibia) Sterling (town in Kansas) Microaggressions (accidental verbal slights) Big Kansas Road Trip (rural tourism event) Daniel Boone (American frontiersman) New Almelo, Kansas (community in Norton County) Nicodemus, Kansas (town founded in 1871 by formerly enslaved Americans) Damar, Kansas (town founded in 1888 by French Canadians) Exodusters (movement of African-Americans to Kansas in 19th century) Boot Hill (cemetery in Dodge City, Kansas) Fencepost limestone (stone bed in the Great Plains) Cuba, Kansas (Czech-American rural community) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“A souvenir can be anything from a travel experience that honors a certain moment in your life, certifies the journey that took you there, and celebrates the confluence of people and places and actions that made it possible.”  – Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Suzanne talk about the ways souvenirs help narrate our travel experiences (2:00); the five different historical categories of travel souvenirs (7:30); the old trend of collecting hair and bones from famous people (15:00); what kinds of souvenirs are popular with travelers (20:00); which souvenirs Rolf sought when he visited Australia, and how some souvenirs make less sense when you get them home (24:30); then Rolf and Gina talk about childhood travel souvenirs (30:00); how photographs are a kind of souvenir, and how they create different memories than objects (36:00); and how the notion of "authenticity" in regard to souvenirs can be complicated (40:00). Suzanne Hill is the presenter of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation's "Weekend Nightlife." Gina Kaufmann is an essayist and radio journalist, most recently at KCUR, the NPR affiliate in Kansas City. Notable Links: Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) One Month on the Mekong, by Rolf Potts (essay) Grand Tour (17th- to 19th-century European travel rite) British Museum (public museum in London) Elgin Marbles (ancient Greek sculptures) Boxer Rebellion (anti-colonial uprising in China) Henry Crabb Robinson (19th century English diarist) John Keats (English Romantic poet) John Milton (English poet and intellectual) On Seeing a Lock of Milton's Hair (Keats poem) Rue Mouffetard (street in Paris) Las Vegas Souvenir & Resort Gift Show (convention) World's Columbian Exposition (world's fair in Chicago) Omiyage (Japanese souvenir rite) Día de los Muertos (Mexican holiday) Père Lachaise (cemetery in Paris) Neil Armstrong (astronaut) Auschwitz (Nazi concentration camp in Poland) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“In alien parts, we speak more simply, unencumbered by the histories that we carry around at home, and look more excitedly, with eyes of wonder.” —Pico Iyer In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond's Way book club participants discuss how he prepares for the book-club sessions (1:30); how the first days of one's journeys have an optimistic energy and excitement, and how "culture shock" is a real thing (4:00); how travel can put us into a childlike mental state, and how travel expectations can lead to unfair disappointments (13:00); how food, even anomalous food, tells specific stories about places, and Rolf's strategy for keeping a travel journal (21:30); how the "beaten path" is beaten for good reasons, but straying from it yields serendipitous rewards (31:00); and simple strategies for staying safe and dealing with burnout on the road (42:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf's online book club signup The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (book) Egeria (ancient Galician nun and pilgrim) Faroe Islands (North Atlantic archipelago) Culture shock (cross-cultural anxiety) Expatriate life in Korea (Deviate episode) Rick Steves (travel writer and TV host) Mary Oliver (American poet) Beginner's Mind (spiritual attitude of openness) Whittier (city in southern California) Nottingham (city in England) Hippie trail (overland Asia route in 1960s and '70s) Pulp Fiction (1994 Quentin Tarantino) H Mart (Korean supermarket chain) Lavinia Spalding on travel journaling (Deviate episode) Patrick Leigh Fermor (English travel writer and scholar) Commonplace book (compendium of learning) The Daily Stoic, by Ryan Holiday (book) On Trails, by Robert Moor (book) China and Mongolia with my parents (Deviate episode) České Budějovice (city in the Czech Republic) Ranong (town in Thailand) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"We do not just keep and collect things. We trouble ourselves to repurpose, create, and invent things just to carry, a little easier, those stories we cannot live without." —Kendra Greene In this episode of Deviate, Rolf speaks to the directors of two very different museums -- Dawn Hammat of the Eisenhower Presidential Library, Museum & Boyhood Home in Abilene, Kansas, and Greg Long of Long's Collectible Showplace & Gift Shop in Salina, Kansas (0:00); what people are drawn to in a given museum, and how a kind of nostalgia drives what people look for there (5:30); the ways all museums change and adapt over time, and how museums can surprise their visitors (12:00). Notable Links: Dwight Eisenhower (34th president of the United States) Mamie Eisenhower (first lady of the US from 1953-61) Barbie (fashion doll) Hot Wheels (brand of toy car) The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Ozzy Osbourne (rock singer) Wonder cabinets (early versions of museums) British Museum (national museum in London) Beanie babies (line of stuffed toys) Pez (brand of candy dispenser) Paint by numbers (popular painting kits) Nelson Rockefeller (businessman and politician) Ethel Merman (20th century actress and singer) World's Largest Belt Buckle (attraction in Kansas) Greyhound Hall of Fame (museum in Kansas) Chisholm trail (19th century cattle-driving trail) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Quietly use travel to deepen your life, and to build stronger relationships – not only with other cultures, but with your home. Figure out ways to give back.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and David talk about how travel allows you to "waste your twenties" in a good way, and how Rolf has come to define "adventure" (2:00); how to plan travels in such a way as to leave room for spontaneity, and how to meet people on the road (8:00); how to communicate in a place where you don't speak the local language, and how to be daring in trying new foods as you travel (15:30); Rolf's travel experiences on the Laotian Mekong, on foot in the Libyan Desert, and by van in North America (25:00); how to balance the desire to see lots of places with the desire to get to know a few places well, and what it means to find "authentic" places (32:30); why slow journeys create richer experiences than hurried ones, and how to honor gestures of hospitality (42:30); how the experience of travel changes as you get older, and why making time is more important in life than making money (48:00). David Martinez is an Associate Professor of Spanish and the director of the Center for Study Abroad at George Fox University in Newberg, Oregon. Notable Links: The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Marco Polo Didn't Go There, by Rolf Potts (book) Bosintang (Korean dog-meat soup) Fried spider (Cambodian snack food) Beondegi (Korean silkworm street food) Doritos (American snack food) Snails as food Merengue (Dominican music and dance) Asturian gaita (Spanish bagpipe) One Month on the Mekong, by Rolf Potts (essay) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Elderhostel (educational travel for older adults) "The Loss of the Creature," by Walker Percy (essay) Heraclitus (ancient Greek philosopher) Wall Street (1987 movie) Gap year (student sabbatical period) Wanderjahr (journeyman year for tradespeople) China and Mongolia with my parents (Deviate episode) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Not every fearful decision I've made has been bad, but most of my bad decisions have been based in fear.”  –Andrew McCarthy In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about the two halves of Andrew's professional life - acting and travel writing - and his transformative first journey on the Camino de Santiago in 1994 (2:00); Andrew's decision to return to the Camino after the pandemic with his 19-year-old son Sam, what it was like to walk for days at a time with Sam, and how being in the 1980s "Brat Pack" affected Andrew's sense of self (11:30); how Sam's attitude toward the walk changed over the course of the journey, and how Andrew knew he might be able to write a book about the experience (22:00); audience questions, including writing advice, what Sam thought of the book, and how travel can expand your view of the world (28:00). Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy), who rose to fame as a teen actor during the John Hughes 80's era, is a television director and writer of such books as The Long Way Home and Brat. His newest book is Walking with Sam: A Father, a Son, and Five Hundred Miles Across Spain. Notable Links: Andrew McCarthy on travel (Deviate episode) Andrew McCarthy Proust questionnaire (Deviate episode) Pretty in Pink (1986 teen romantic comedy-drama) Lowell Thomas Awards (travel writing competition) John Hughes (American filmmaker) Molly Ringwald (American actress) Camino de Santaigo (pilgrimage route in Spain) Off the Road, by Jack Hitt (book about the Camino)) St. James the Great (Christian apostle) Oliver! (coming-of-age musical) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) Brat Pack (cohort of 1980s teen actors) "Hollywood's Brat Pack" (1985 New York article) Kansas (1988 film) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“The truth is that our travel anticipations, and our memories, have a way of holding only the most striking parts of an experience—the parts that don't cause burnout.” —Matt Kepnes In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about travel journaling, and a journal Matt has designed for travelers (1:15); why travel burnout happens, and how Matt first experienced it on the road (4:30); why rest days are important to a journey, and why one shouldn't over-plan one's days on the road (10:00); how lingering in places allows you to develop a deeper relationship to those places, and how digital nomads can balance work and fun on the road (16:00); and how to create balance in your social-media habits as you travel (23:30). Matt Kepnes (@nomadicmatt), commonly known as “Nomadic Matt,” is a travel blogger and the New York Times bestselling author of Travel the World on $50 a Day and Ten Years a Nomad. Notable Links: The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Keeping a travel journal (Deviate episode) RememberYourTravels.com (travel journal) Experiencing Norway by hammock (dispatch) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's class in France) Digital nomadism (location-independent lifestyle) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Things don't happen in Las Vegas. Things are happened in Las Vegas. All actions in the town are so meticulously predicted and orchestrated that spontaneity itself exists only as the ghost of compulsion.”  –Rolf Potts (in 1998) In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ari discuss Rolf's 1998 Las Vegas essay "The Mystical High Church of Luck," and their relationship to their early creative work (2:30); how the experience of Las Vegas depends on what stage of life you're in, how Vegas compares to New Orleans, and how Rolf and Ari have a hard time enjoying themselves when they go there (14:00); the stereotypes that surround Las Vegas, why it is difficult to write about, and how one might find original experiences there (30:00); what it would be like to live in Las Vegas, and the mysteries and mechanics of "luck" (47:00). Ari Shaffir (@AriShaffir) is a comedian, writer, podcaster, and actor. He is the host of the Skeptic Tank podcast. His latest comedy special, JEW, is available on YouTube. Las Vegas Links: The Mystical High Church of Luck, by Rolf Potts (1998 essay) Circus Circus Las Vegas (hotel and casino) Caesars Palace (casino resort in Las Vegas) Ghostbar (Las Vegas nightclub) History of Las Vegas Rat Pack (20th century Las Vegas entertainers) Casino (1995 film) At Home in the Neon, by Dave Hickey (essay) Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (Hunter S. Thompson novel) The Hangover (2009 American comedy film) Las Vegas, Tis of Thee, by Richard Todd (essay) Fremont Street (popular gambling street in Las Vegas) Las Vegas Strip (popular gambling street) Valley of Fire State Park (recreation area near Las Vegas) Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area SEMA auto show (car accessory convention) Las Vegas Souvenir & Resort Gift Show (convention) Other Links: Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Salvador Dalí Museum (St. Petersburg art museum) Atlantic City (casino resort city in New Jersey) March Madness (college basketball tournament) Joe Rogan (American comedian and podcaster) Odyssey: Driving Around the World (TV documentary) Antoni Gaudí (Catalan architect) Easy Rider (1969 road-trip film) Roseanne (American TV sitcom) High Fidelity (2000 American film) Portlandia (America TV series) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) TraveCon (convention) Foxwoods Resort Casino (Connecticut tribal casino) Steven Soderbergh (American filmmaker) Shepard Fairey (American artist) Tim Ferriss (American author and investor) Pablo Picasso (Spanish artist) Wandering Jew (plant) Psychogeography (creative exploration of places) Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (museum in Cleveland) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Nothing against bucket lists, but sometimes that interest that makes you weird and nerdy at home is going to make you vulnerable to all the weird nerdy people in some distant new place who are also interested in that thing.” —Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond's Way book club participants discuss what compels us to be interested in certain places, and how Rolf's latest book is designed to be read over the course of a year (2:00); how nomads can create consistency and community in new places, and how to find good cities for families in Italy and the Balkans (4:45); how to find places to stay in places where last-minute reservations are hard to come by (8:30); how to choose where to go on a given vagabonding journey (13:00); how having a mission can give focus to your travels (17:45); and how guidebooks can still be a useful travel tool (21:10). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's class in France) Nottingham (city in England) Fudge Tunnel (sludge-rock band from Nottingham) Amalfi Coast (destination in Italy) CouchSurfing (homestay service) Hitching for pastries (Deviate episode) Kevin Kelly on Deviate Storming 'The Beach,' by Rolf Potts (essay) Marco Polo Didn't Go There, by Rolf Potts (book) Faroe Islands (Bradt Travel Guide) The Land of Maybe, by Tim Ecott (travel memoir) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“You hear how there's many words for snow in native cultures in Canada; there are actually over 20 words for 'fog' in the Faroe Islands.”  –Matthew Landrum In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matthew discuss what makes the landscape and culture of the Faroe Islands distinctive, and how Matthew came to study Faroese (2:00); how your motivation to travel to a place affects what you see and experience there, and how isolation affects people's worldview in a place like the Faroes (13:00); Faroese history, art, and culture, and how World War II transformed it (24:00); how the weather affects one's experience of the Faroe Islands, and what it's like to travel there (34:00); and how the Faroe Islands have changed -- and stayed the same -- over the years (46:00). Matthew Landrum (@MatthewLandrum) is a writer, speaker, and teacher. He is the translator of Faroese poet Katrin Ottarsdottir's Are There Copper Pipes in Heaven, and the author of Berlin Poems. He lives in Detroit where he teaches at a private school for students on the autism spectrum. Faroese music, art, and literature links: Eivør Pálsdóttir (Faroese singer-songwriter) Teitur Lassen (Faroese singer-songwriter) Christine De Luca (Shetlandic poet) Viking metal (music subgenre) Týr (Faroese folk metal band) Trom (TV series set in the Faroe Islands) William Heinesen (Faroese novelist and painter) Magic realism (style of literary fiction) Faroese ballads (traditional music and dance) Ring Cycles (Germanic heroic legends) Völsunga saga (Norse saga involving dragons) Hjalmar and Ingeborg (Faroese ballad) Faroese travel, language, and geography links: Streymoy (largest and most populated of the Faroe Islands) Tórshavn (capital city of the Faroe Islands) International Summer Institute in Faroese Language Norn language (extinct North Germanic language) Týr (Norse god of war) The case for trekking on foot (Deviate episode) Vágar Airport (only airport in the Faroes) Akvavit (Scandinavian distilled spirit) Kirkjubøur (cathedral-ruin village in the Faroes) Gásadalur (village near Múlafossur Waterfall) Heimablídni (Faroese home-hospitality meals) Skerpikjøt (Faroese wind-dried mutton) Lutefisk (traditional Scandinavian dish) University of the Faroe Islands (school in Tórshavn) Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“"I wasn't partying. I wasn't relaxing on the beach. I was photographing – working – every minute of the day. That was a means to see as much as I possibly could. And to keep looking.”  –Kevin Kelly In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kevin discuss the ambitions and connections that led Kevin to Asia not long after high school (2:30); how Kevin's interest in photography affected his experience of Asia (7:30); how seeing other cultures gave him perspective on his own culture, and on himself, and his countrymen (15:00); how photography gave him intensified attention to what in the world might be changing (23:00); how AI and other technology are changing how we live, create, and travel (30:00); how to travel in such a way that you are open to phenomenon and experiences you don't know of yet, and how technology might enable a "protopia" future (40:00). Kevin Kelly (@kevin2kelly) is a co-founder of Wired magazine, a co-founder of the Rosetta Project, and he serves on the board of the Long Now Foundation. He is a photographer, writer, and futurist, with much of his work centering on Asian and digital culture. His three-volume photo book Vanishing Asia draws on 50 years of vagabonding travel experiences, and his newest book, Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I'd Known Earlier, debuts in May of 2023. Notable Links: The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Leaves of Grass, by Walt Whitman (poetry book) Communitas (egalitarian ethos of shared interest) Jan Chipchase (design innovator) Wired (magazine) Rick Prelinger (American archivist) Stewart Brand (founder of the Whole Earth Catalog) Shenzhen (city in China) A Pattern Language (1977 urban design book) "What AI-Generated Art Means for Human Creativity" (article) "A Brief History of Smell-O-Vision" (article) Burning Man (event in the US) Kumbh Mela (event in India) Musical.ly (defunct social media app) "Forget Utopia. Ignore Dystopia. Embrace Protopia!" (article) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"Success is often about finding just enough material wealth to fund the life that makes you happy." —Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Nomadic Network book club participants discuss how travel can intensify the attention you pay to life at home (2:30); how the best discoveries of travel can't be planned, and how you can give yourself permission to travel at all ages in life (10:30); how travel can give you perspective on the notion of "success" (22:00); what various book club participants have learned from (and discovered on) their travels (34:00); and the details of Rolf's annual Travel Memoir writing class in Paris (41:00). Notable Links: The Nomadic Network book club (online events with Rolf) Marco Polo Didn't Go There book club (Deviate episode) The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Rolf's 2022 appearance on the Tim Ferriss Show (podcast) On Kawara (Japanese conceptual artist) Mallory Square (waterfront plaza in Key West) Oia (village on the Greek island of Santorini) Tony Perrottet on Deviate (podcast episode) Real on the Road (David Hunter Bishop travel blog) Rolf traveling with Sudanese in Syria (blog dispatch) Sei Shōnagon (10th century Japanese author) John Muir (American naturalist and author) Gobi Desert (arid region in East Asia) Van life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Søren Kierkegaard (Danish philosopher) Bennifer (high-profile celebrity relationship) Paris Writing Workshop (Rolf's summer writing classes) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Travel has become a way to remind myself how it feels to get lost, and then get unlost. It is a way to remember the discomfort of uncertainty and the unfamiliar. It's an exercise in receiving the unexpected.”  –Kristin Van Tassel In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kristin discuss being in DC, living in Kansas, and Kristin's family trip to Mexico using migrant-economy buses (1:30); how seeking international restaurants and grocery stores at home can be a window into distant cultures (8:00); Kristin's motivation to learn Spanish in middle age, and how it connects to her perspective as a teacher (16:00); Kristin's harrowing experience of getting lost on a run in Nairobi in 1990, and how getting lost in a place is a way of experiencing it in a deeper way (20:30); how Kristin experienced the country and culture of Moldova through soups and salads while being hosted there by a former student (34:30); and how to stay open to being lost without compromising yourself, and embrace unfamiliar languages as a traveler and learner (41:00). Kristin Van Tassel teaches writing and American literature at Bethany College in Lindsborg, Kansas. She writes essays and poetry about place, teaching, motherhood, and travel. Notable Links: National Portrait Gallery (art museum in Washington, DC) Lindsborg (Swedish-American town in Kansas) Long-distance hiking at home (Deviate episode) Guanajuato (city in Mexico) Zacatecas (state in Mexico) Meeting Sudanese refugees in Syria (dispatch by Rolf Potts) Hmong people (ethnic group in Southeast Asia) Salina (small city in Kansas) Kimchi (Korean side-dish) "Swamp Creatures," by Kristin Van Tassel (essay) "Swallowing Fear in San Miguel de Allende" (essay) Hangul (Korean writing system) Punta del Diablo (beach village in Uruguay) Nairobi (capital city of Kenya) Rolf's 2010 no-baggage round-the-world journey The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Chișinău (capital city of Moldova) Anna Gabur's baking-themed Instagram Borscht (Eastern European soup) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"Running back John Levi is about as easy to stop as a 200-pound eel. With his speed, and his shifting, sidestepping style of running, tacklers slide off of him like rain off a slicker." --From the Minneapolis Star, October 1923 In this episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about a 1927 football game between the New York Giants and an all-indigenous Oklahoma team called the Hominy Indians, and how the team's star player, John Levi, was the father of Rolf's junior high gym coach (0:00); John Levi's early years as a football player at Haskell Institute, and Haskell's games against teams like Baylor and Minnesota (5:00); Haskell's game against the Quantico Marines at Yankee Stadium, and how it led to John Levi being offered a baseball contract (10:30); how professional football was different in the 1920s than it is now (14:00); how Osage County, Oklahoma was in the midst of an oil boom in the 1920s (17:30) the specifics of the 1927 New York Giants versus Hominy Indians game (20:30); and how John Levi's legacy was embodied by his son, a U.S. Marine veteran who later became a physical education teacher in Wichita, Kansas (22:30). John Levi, Jr. served as a medic for the First Marine Division during the Korean War. He later taught physical education for several decades at Hadley Junior High School in Wichita, Kansas. Now retired, he lives in Green Valley, Arizona. Sports-related Links: John Levi (Arapaho multi-sport athlete) Hominy Indians (1920s Oklahoma football team) 1927 New York Giants (football team) Playground of the Native Son (2013 film) "They Might be Giants" (article about the Hominy-Giants game) Super Bowl 57 (NFL football championship) Jim Thorpe (Sac and Fox Nation multi-sport athlete) Barry Sanders (NFL running back) Patrick Mahomes (NFL quarterback) 1923 Quantico Marines Devil Dogs (football team) Red Grange (college and NFL running back) Olympics amateurism rules (aristocratic sporting ethos) Harrisburg Senators (minor-league baseball team) History of the National Football League Pottsville Maroons (defunct NFL football team) Kansas City Cowboys (defunct NFL football team) Akron Pros (defunct NFL football team) Buffalo Bisons (defunct NFL football team) Barnstorming (traveling sports exhibitions) John Mosier (NFL tight end) Russ Campbell (NFL tight end) Other notable Links: A personal history of being a football fan (Deviate episode) Haskell Institute (Native American school in Kansas) Carlyle Industrial School (Indian boarding school) Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 Osage County, Oklahoma Killers of the Flower Moon (2023 movie) David Grann (author) Hominy (town in Oklahoma) Fairfax (town in Oklahoma) Growing up racially diverse (Deviate episode) Battle of Inchon (Korean War amphibious invasion) Second Battle of Seoul (Korean War urban battle) Battle of Chosin Reservoir (Korean War winter battle) Band of Brothers (book by Stephen Ambrose) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“For ancient Roman tourists, the whole point of travel was to go where everyone else was going. Sightseeing was a form of pilgrimage.” –Tony Perrottet In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tony discuss the habits idiosyncrasies of ancient Roman tourists, and how they relate to modern travel (1:30); the class tensions and expectations inherent in different types of modern and historical travelers, and how the "unexpected" affects these journeys (17:00); the appeal of Egypt to both ancient and modern tourists (22:30); how mythic ages can be a prism through which to see a place (33:00); how travel and geographical endeavor is an important task for a historian (44:30); and how the experience of travel has and hasn't changed over the years (55:30). Tony Perrottet (@TonyPerrottet) is the author of six books, including Pagan Holiday: On the Trail of Ancient Roman Tourists; The Sinner's Grand Tour: A Journey Through the Historical Underbelly of Europe; and The Naked Olympics: The True Story of the Greek Games. Notable Links: The Nomadic Network book club (online events with Rolf) Vagabond's Way sweepstakes (online giveaway) Yousuf Karsh (Canadian photographer) Petra (ancient Nabataean city in Jordan) Troy (ancient city in modern-day Turkey) Grand Tour (travel rite from 17th-19th centuries) Explorer's Club (professional society in New York) Lionel Casson (historian who wrote on ancient Rome) Ludwig Friedländer (scholar who wrote on ancient Rome) Wenamun (ancient Egyptian traveler) Appian Way (ancient Roman road) Gladiator (2000 film) Sultan Hotel (Rolf's favorite hostel in Cairo) Valley of the Kings (ancient tomb complex in Egypt) Felucca (Mediterranean sailing boat) Egypt's Entrepreneur Awards Belle Époque (period of French history) Giacomo Casanova (Italian adventurer) Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (German poet) Theseus (mythical Athenian king) Nero (Roman emperor) Ephesus (ancient Greek city) The ancient Greek Olympics (Deviate episode) Sagas of Icelanders (medieval narratives) Alhambra (Islamic-era fortress in Spain) Souvenir (book by Rolf Potts) True Cross (crucifixion cross sought by medieval pilgrims) Holy Prepuce (foreskin sought by medieval pilgrims) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's writing classes) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“A willingness to fail is an important part of difficult beauty. Because difficult beauty will arrive first not as beauty at all.” –Chloe Cooper Jones In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Chloe discuss the philosophical concept of "easy beauty" and "difficult beauty" in the context of travel (2:30); how our relationship to places changes over time with repeated exposure (15:00); how art and travel, home and adventure, became important aspects of Chloe's life (23:00); how the archetype of the "Hero's Journey" evokes aspects of home as well as travel (35:30); Chloe's investigation and experience of "dark tourism" in Cambodia, and how it gave her perspective on how other people view her disability (45:15) and how there's no easy way to navigate the polarities of the self, but trying to do so can result in a hard-won experience of beauty (1:08:00). Chloe Cooper Jones (@CCooperJones) is the author of Easy Beauty: A Memoir. She has been a Pulitzer Prize finalist in Feature Writing, and was the recipient of a Whiting Creative Nonfiction Grant, as well as a Howard Foundation Grant from Brown University. Notable Links: Bernard Bosanquet (English philosopher) Sublime (philosophical concept) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's summer writing classes) The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Lake Como (lake region in Italy) "The Loss of the Creature," essay by Walker Percy Teotihuacan (pyramid site in Mexico) Pico Iyer (travel writer) Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (book) Quality (philosophical concept) "Such Perfection," (Believer essay by Chloe Cooper Jones) The High Line (elevated greenway park in New York City) Roland Barthes (French literary theorist) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) The Sheltering Sky, by Paul Bowles (novel) Heroes of the Fourth Turning (2019 play by Will Arbery) "The Grateful Acre," monologue from Arbery's play Hero's journey (narrative template) Minangkabau people (ethnic group in Sumatra) Wanderjahre (journeyman tradition in Germany) Gyoza (Chinese dumplings) Thich Nhat Hanh (Vietnamese Buddhist monk) Killing Fields (genocide sites in Cambodia) Poetics, by Aristotle (philosophical treatise) Catharsis (purging or purification of emotions) The Philosophy of Horror, by Noël Carroll (book) Dark tourism (phenomenon of travel to tragic places) Tuol Sleng (Cambodian genocide museum) Francis Galton (English explorer and geographer) Tuk-tuk (auto-rickshaw common in SE Asia) Sørumsand (provincial town in Norway) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Travel is one of the few activities we engage in not knowing the outcome and reveling in that uncertainty. Nothing is more forgettable than the trip that goes exactly as planned.” –Eric Weiner In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Eric discuss the tendency of travelers to idealize the very recent bygone past in places, and Rolf's experience of traveling by freighter ship (2:00); Eric's satisfaction in returning to places he's visited before, such as India, and how to remain open to uncertainty and surprise on the road (9:30); how conversations about travel differ from generation to generation, culture to culture, person to person (20:00); what it was like for Eric to have his book The Geography of Bliss adapted into a TV show, and the nuances behind the concept of "happiness" (28:30); how the experience of travel is inevitably intertwined with the experience of home (38:00); how luxury hotels can insulate you from the experience of a place, and how "adventure travel" is modern concept (43:30); and how Eric's relationship to home, and to time, has changed over the years (58:30). Eric Weiner (@Eric_Weiner) is an award-winning journalist, bestselling author, and speaker. His books include The Socrates Express, and The Geography of Bliss, which is being made into a six-part docu-series, featuring actor Rainn Wilson, and due to air on NBC's Peacock streaming service. For more about Eric, check out https://ericweinerbooks.com/ Notable Links: Philosophy compels us to live better (Deviate episode) Rainn Wilson and the Geography of Bliss (TV series) The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Boatswain (deck boss on a freighter ship) Seven Pillars of Wisdom (book by T.E. Lawrence) Eric Weiner's Atlas of Ideas (email newsletter) Keitai denwa (Japanese mobile phone culture) Grunge (1990s alternative music culture) K-Pop (Korean popular music) Hangul (Korean alphabet) World Happiness Report Rainn Wilson (TV actor and producer) Quilts for Kids Nepal (nonprofit organization) Ibn Battuta (medieval Moroccan traveler) Beryl Markham (aviator and author) Kamba (ethnic group in Kenya) Thar Desert (arid region in India) The Geography of Genius, by Eric Weiner (book) Yi-Fu Tuan (Chinese-American geographer) "Little Gidding" (poem by T.S. Eliot) Uffizi Gallery (museum in Florence) Teaism (DC-based teahouse) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Travel expands time, because you're not experiencing the everyday of what you normally do. It's all about discovery, and experiencing that with other people.” —Pegi Vail In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pegi talk about how she originally sought to depict a "visual ethnography" of world travelers, their global impacts, and their power as a "gentrifying" force (2:00); how the world of travel has (and hasn't) changed since Pegi made her film ten years ago, and how immigrants and migrant workers also represent travel communities just like backpackers and expats (11:00); the ways the notion of "journey" can serve as a metaphor for non-travel experiences, and how travel can expand one's sense of time (26:30); what stories travelers choose to tell about places, and how drug-scenes have fueled travel communitas over the years (31:00); the role digital photography now plays in travel, and the individualized notion of what an "explorer" is (39:30); and the importance of allowing yourself to get lost on that road, the "structured danger" of most adventure travel, and relying on your "personness" (rather than technology) as a traveler (49:00). Pegi Vail is an anthropologist and filmmaker who directed the documentary Gringo Trails.  She is also a sustainable-travel consultant whose academic work has focused on visual anthropology, Indigenous media, and the role of storytelling to the political economy of tourism in the developing world. She is the Co-Director of New York University's Center for Media, Culture, and History. Vail is a founding member, curator, and featured storyteller of the popular not-for-profit storytelling collective, The Moth. Notable Links: The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (travel book) Williamsburg (gentrified neighborhood in Brooklyn) Banana Pancake Trail (travel circuit in SE Asia) Lower East Side Tenement Museum (historic site in NYC) History of hosteling (inexpensive lodging system) Hippie Trail (overland travel circuit in 1960s and 1970s) The Great Gatsby, by F. Scott Fitzgerald (novel) Hmong people (ethic group in SE Asia) Nelson H. H. Graburn (anthropology scholar) Communitas (communities created by shared endeavor) Arnold van Gennep (ethnographer who coined "rites of passage") Chaebol (South Korean industrial conglomerate) Rolf and Ari Shaffir talk psychedelics (Deviate episode) Backpack Ambassadors, by Richard Ivan Jobs (book) Margaret Mead Film Festival (documentary film festival) Spike Lee (American filmmaker) Melvin Estrella (Pegi's partner and film producer) J. Edgar Hoover (American law-enforcement administrator) Eurail Pass (European train pass popular with backpackers) On Photography, by Susan Sontag (book) The Explorers Club (professional club in New York) Saul Bellow (American novelist) A Field Guide to Getting Lost, by Rebecca Solnit (book) Beryl Markham (British-African aviator and author) Digital detoxing (intentional refrain from using digital devices) Hippocampus (part of the brain) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"Why fly fourteen hours from New York to Johannesburg to see a South African version of Brooklyn? To me, the only reason to know what destinations are 'hot' is to avoid them." —Seth Kugel In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Seth talk about how the travel industry both helps and hinders the travel experience, and how Seth first experienced travel when he was young (1:30); tourist desire, the "beaten path," and the contradictions of what travelers seek in AirBnbs and related property-renting services (10:30); dealing with language barriers overseas, and social versus literal risks overseas (20:00); balancing general tourist advice versus nuanced insights as a travel writer, and the role new technologies play in travel decisions (27:00); and why it's a good idea to avoid places that have been deemed "trendy," and how to break out of the bad habits of travel (40:30). Seth Kugel (@sethkugel) is a travel writer, freelance journalist, and host of the Amigo Gringo YouTube channel. He was the Frugal Traveler columnist for the New York Times from 2010 to 2016, and he is most recently the author of the book Rediscovering Travel: A Guide for the Globally Curious. For more on Seth, check out his website http://sethkugel.com/ Notable Links: The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (travel book) Transnistria (breakaway part of Moldova) Nagorno-Karabakh (breakaway part of Azerbaijan) The World in a Selfie, by Marco D'Eramo (book) Principe Real (neighborhood in Lisbon) Wichita Vortex Sutra (poem by Allen Ginsberg) Nancy Mitford (English novelist) Barbarian Days, by William Finnegan (book) Arthur Frommer (guidebook writer) Bukittinggi (city in Sumatra) Malcolm X (American activist and traveler) Bangkok Post (English-language newspaper in Thailand) Hindustan Times (English-language newspaper in India) "Free Fallin'" (song by Tom Petty) Punta Cana (resort town in the Dominican Republic) "Driving Through the Heartland," by Seth Kugel (article) Chicken Annie's and Chicken Mary's (Kansas restaurants) Red Queen's race (metaphor about running to stand still) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“There's no getting lost when you travel, because you're already there. You're already where you're supposed to be, which is somewhere in this new place.” –Ari Shaffir In this episode of Deviate, which took place at New York City's KGB Bar, Rolf and Ari talk about the premise of Rolf's new book The Vagabond's Way (2:20); why it's important not to postpone one's dream travels to a seemingly more appropriate time of life, and how it's hard for your friends to appreciate and understand your travels when you get home (7:30); how to not let your smartphones and photographs get in the way of your best journey (15:00); how to best decide where to start on a journey, and why allowing yourself to get lost is sometimes the best way to find experiences a place (23:00); why the philosophical concept of "time wealth" is important to Rolf, and how travel allows you to express a unique feeling freedom (31:30); how the The Vagabond's Way is the "spiritual successor" to Vagabonding, and how Rolf keeps travel in conversation with his home life in Kansas (36:00); and how to savor a new place in the moment, even as that place is changing (44:00). Ari Shaffir (@AriShaffir) is a comedian, writer, podcaster, and actor. He is the host of the Skeptic Tank podcast. His new comedy special, JEW, is available on YouTube. Notable Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's summer creative writing classes) The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (travel book) Henry Rollins on Ari's podcast Skeptic Tank Commonplace book (method of compiling knowledge) Jasmin Shah (photographer) Wenamun (ancient Egyptian traveler) Matsuo Bashō, (Japanese poet and traveler) On Photography, by Susan Sontag (book) Mentawai people (inhabitants of islands near Sumatra) Cypress Hill (American hip-hop group) Pico Iyer (travel writer) Pagan Holiday, by Tony Perrottet (book) Icelandic Sagas (Nordic historic narratives) Koshary (Egyptian national dish) Chefchaouen (city in Morocco) Tétouan (city in Morocco) Inle Lake (lake in Myanmar) Eddy L. Harris (travel writer) Aosta Valley (region in the Italian Alps) Instagram shot of Rolf's first vagabonding trip Mary Oliver (American poet) Lindsborg, Kansas ("Little Sweden") Lower East Side (neighborhood in Manhattan) Umbria (region in Italy) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Travel is often one part geography and nine parts imagination.” –Kate Harris In this episode of Deviate Rolf and Kate discuss how travel can transform one's idea of what "exploration" is (3:00); the concept of borders (14:00); nostalgia and the transformational effect of travel (25:00); the role of home in relation to travel (34:00); and letting adventure into your life (44:00). Kate Harris (@kateonmars) is an adventure writer, named by Condé Nast Traveler as one of the “world's most adventurous women.” Her work has appeared in Outside, The Walrus, and Georgia Review. Her book, Lands of Lost Borders, is a national bestseller For more about Kate, check out www.kateharris.ca Notable Links: Rolf's Q&A with Kate Harris (book foreword) Silk Road (network of trade routes) Ernest Shackleton (explorer) Fridtjof Nansen (explorer) Annie Dillard (American author) Wind, Sand and Stars, by Antoine de Saint-Exupery (book) Henry David Thoreau (writer) My Journey to Lhasa, by Alexandra David-Neel (book) Aksai Chin (region administered by China) Marco Polo (historical figure) Tomas Tranströmer (poet) Atlin (community in British Columbia) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.