Deviate with Rolf Potts

Note: This encore episode is dedicated to the memory of Alice Potts, who died on August 20, 2025, aged 81. “In America aging is often seen as an insult rather than an inevitable human process. We don’t celebrate getting older; we ‘fight’ age by pretending to be young.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate Rolf and his parents, Alice and George Potts, talk about how surviving the COVID-19 pandemic has changed their relationship, and how it gave them a pretext to go through a “death checklist” together (3:00); how one’s grandparents and parents live on in one’s memories and one’s conversations, the life-values they passed on, and what it felt like when those loved ones declined and died (14:00); how, over the years, elderly people and philosophers have come to terms with notions of decline and death (31:00); and personal insights about what it’s like to have grown older after having lived a long life (44:00). George and Alice Potts are retired schoolteachers based in Kansas. George taught science at various Wichita high schools, as well as at Friends University, where he pioneered graduate-level programs in Zoo Science and Environmental Studies. He also helped facilitate the Outdoor Wildlife Learning Sites (OWLS) program for the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks. Alice taught second graders in the Wichita public schools for more than 30 years. In 1994 her classes succeed in promoting legislation to declare the barred tiger salamander the Kansas State Amphibian. Notable Links: What to Do When a Loved One Dies (AARP death checklist) How we die in America (Deviate episode) The therapeutic uses of reading scripture (Deviate episode) On losing one's parents to COVID-19 (Deviate episode) 1985 World Series (baseball championship) Joe Louis (20th century boxing champion) John Prine (singer-songwriter) Alzheimer’s disease (chronic neurodegenerative disease) You Are My Sunshine (folk song) Will You Miss Me When I’m Gone (folk song) Ecclesiastes (book in the Old Testament of the Bible) Epistle of James (book in the New Testament of the Bible) Crowfoot (19th century Siksika First Nation chief) Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber) Epicurus (ancient Greek philosopher) Varanasi (Hindu holy city in India) Lamentations 3:22-23 (Old Testament Bible verse) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Note: This encore episode is dedicated to the memory of Alice Potts, who died on August 20, 2025, aged 81. “In America aging is often seen as an insult rather than an inevitable human process. We don’t celebrate getting older; we ‘fight’ age by pretending to be young.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate Rolf and his parents, Alice and George Potts, talk about how surviving the COVID-19 pandemic has changed their relationship, and how it gave them a pretext to go through a “death checklist” together (3:00); how one’s grandparents and parents live on in one’s memories and one’s conversations, the life-values they passed on, and what it felt like when those loved ones declined and died (14:00); how, over the years, elderly people and philosophers have come to terms with notions of decline and death (31:00); and personal insights about what it’s like to have grown older after having lived a long life (44:00). George and Alice Potts are retired schoolteachers based in Kansas. George taught science at various Wichita high schools, as well as at Friends University, where he pioneered graduate-level programs in Zoo Science and Environmental Studies. He also helped facilitate the Outdoor Wildlife Learning Sites (OWLS) program for the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks. Alice taught second graders in the Wichita public schools for more than 30 years. In 1994 her classes succeed in promoting legislation to declare the barred tiger salamander the Kansas State Amphibian. Notable Links: What to Do When a Loved One Dies (AARP death checklist) How we die in America (Deviate episode) The therapeutic uses of reading scripture (Deviate episode) On losing one's parents to COVID-19 (Deviate episode) 1985 World Series (baseball championship) Joe Louis (20th century boxing champion) John Prine (singer-songwriter) Alzheimer’s disease (chronic neurodegenerative disease) You Are My Sunshine (folk song) Will You Miss Me When I’m Gone (folk song) Ecclesiastes (book in the Old Testament of the Bible) Epistle of James (book in the New Testament of the Bible) Crowfoot (19th century Siksika First Nation chief) Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber) Epicurus (ancient Greek philosopher) Varanasi (Hindu holy city in India) Lamentations 3:22-23 (Old Testament Bible verse) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“No endeavor to write a travel book is ever lost, since it gives you a useful perspective on (and intensified attention to) the reality of the travel experience itself. When embraced mindfully, the real-time experience of a journey is invariably its truest reward.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf touches on nine lessons from attempting to write a (never finished) van-life vagabonding memoir at age 23, including: On Pilgrims in a Sliding World (1:00) Lesson #1: No work is lost (and “failure” has lessons to teach) On the author as a character (6:30) Lesson #2: “Show, don't tell” is still good narrative advice On depicting other people (14:30) Lesson #3: Travel books require reporting (not just recollecting) On recounting dialogues (22:30) Lesson #4: Be true to what was said (but make sure it serves a broader purpose) On veering from the truth (32:30) Lesson #5: The truth tends to work better than whatever you might make up On depicting places (39:30) Lesson #6: “Telling details” are better than broad generalizations about a place On neurotic young-manhood (48:30) Lesson #7: Balance narrative analysis with narrative vulnerability The seeds of Vagabonding (1:01:30) Lesson #8: Over time, we write our way into what we have to say The journey was the point (1:06:30) Lesson #9: In the end, taking the journey counts for more than writing it Books mentioned: The Geto Boys, by Rolf Potts (2016 book) Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (2003 book) The Anxiety of Influence, by Harold Bloom (1973 book) On the Road, by Jack Kerouac (1957 book) The Catcher in the Rye, by J.D. Salinger (1951 book) Epic of Gilgamesh (12th century BCE Mesopotamian epic) Don Quixote, by Miguel de Cervantes (17th century novel) The Travels of Sir John Mandeville (14th century travelogue) True History, by Lucian of Samosata (2nd century novella) Three Cups of Tea, by Greg Mortenson (21st century memoir) Marco Polo Didn't Go There, by Rolf Potts (2008 book) Labels: A Mediterranean Journal, by Evelyn Waugh (1930 book) Essays, poems, and short stories mentioned "The Mystical High Church of Luck," by Rolf Potts (1998 essay) "Greenland is Not Bigger Than South America", by Rolf Potts (1998 essay) “The Faces,” by Robert Creeley (1983 poem) "Reflection and Retrospection," by Phillip Lopate (2005 essay) "Why so much travel writing is so boring," by Thomas Swick (2001 essay) "10 Rules of Writing," by Elmore Leonard (2001 essay) "In the Penal Colony," by Franz Kafka (1919 short story) Places and events mentioned People's Park (activist park in Berkeley) 924 Gilman Street (punk-rock club in Berkeley) Alphabet City (neighborhood New York City's East Village) Brentwood (Los Angeles neighborhood) 1994 Northridge earthquake Panama City Beach (Florida spring-break city) Gainesville (Florida college town) Athens (Georgia college town) Big Sur (coastal region of California) Humboldt Redwoods State Park (park in California) Other links: "Van Life before #VanLife" (Deviate episode) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's annual creative writing classes) Picaresque (prose genre) Roman à clef (fictionalized novel about real-life events) "Jumping freight trains in the Pacific NW" (Deviate episode) "Telling travel stories, with Andrew McCarthy" (Deviate episode) "Rolf Potts: The Vagabond's Way" (Ari Shaffir's Skeptic Tank podcast) "A personal history of my grunge-bandwagon band" (Deviate episode) Gettysburg Address (Abraham Lincoln speech) José Ortega y Gasset (Spanish philosopher) Jack Handey (American humorist known for "Deep Thoughts" jokes) Laurel Lee (American memoirist) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“No endeavor to write a travel book is ever lost, since it gives you a useful perspective on (and intensified attention to) the reality of the travel experience itself. When embraced mindfully, the real-time experience of a journey is invariably its truest reward.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf touches on nine lessons from attempting to write a (never finished) van-life vagabonding memoir at age 23, including: On Pilgrims in a Sliding World (1:00) Lesson #1: No work is lost (and “failure” has lessons to teach) On the author as a character (6:30) Lesson #2: “Show, don't tell” is still good narrative advice On depicting other people (14:30) Lesson #3: Travel books require reporting (not just recollecting) On recounting dialogues (22:30) Lesson #4: Be true to what was said (but make sure it serves a broader purpose) On veering from the truth (32:30) Lesson #5: The truth tends to work better than whatever you might make up On depicting places (39:30) Lesson #6: “Telling details” are better than broad generalizations about a place On neurotic young-manhood (48:30) Lesson #7: Balance narrative analysis with narrative vulnerability The seeds of Vagabonding (1:01:30) Lesson #8: Over time, we write our way into what we have to say The journey was the point (1:06:30) Lesson #9: In the end, taking the journey counts for more than writing it Books mentioned: The Geto Boys, by Rolf Potts (2016 book) Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (2003 book) The Anxiety of Influence, by Harold Bloom (1973 book) On the Road, by Jack Kerouac (1957 book) The Catcher in the Rye, by J.D. Salinger (1951 book) Epic of Gilgamesh (12th century BCE Mesopotamian epic) Don Quixote, by Miguel de Cervantes (17th century novel) The Travels of Sir John Mandeville (14th century travelogue) True History, by Lucian of Samosata (2nd century novella) Three Cups of Tea, by Greg Mortenson (21st century memoir) Marco Polo Didn't Go There, by Rolf Potts (2008 book) Labels: A Mediterranean Journal, by Evelyn Waugh (1930 book) Essays, poems, and short stories mentioned "The Mystical High Church of Luck," by Rolf Potts (1998 essay) "Greenland is Not Bigger Than South America", by Rolf Potts (1998 essay) “The Faces,” by Robert Creeley (1983 poem) "Reflection and Retrospection," by Phillip Lopate (2005 essay) "Why so much travel writing is so boring," by Thomas Swick (2001 essay) "10 Rules of Writing," by Elmore Leonard (2001 essay) "In the Penal Colony," by Franz Kafka (1919 short story) Places and events mentioned People's Park (activist park in Berkeley) 924 Gilman Street (punk-rock club in Berkeley) Alphabet City (neighborhood New York City's East Village) Brentwood (Los Angeles neighborhood) 1994 Northridge earthquake Panama City Beach (Florida spring-break city) Gainesville (Florida college town) Athens (Georgia college town) Big Sur (coastal region of California) Humboldt Redwoods State Park (park in California) Other links: "Van Life before #VanLife" (Deviate episode) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's annual creative writing classes) Picaresque (prose genre) Roman à clef (fictionalized novel about real-life events) "Jumping freight trains in the Pacific NW" (Deviate episode) "Telling travel stories, with Andrew McCarthy" (Deviate episode) "Rolf Potts: The Vagabond's Way" (Ari Shaffir's Skeptic Tank podcast) "A personal history of my grunge-bandwagon band" (Deviate episode) Gettysburg Address (Abraham Lincoln speech) José Ortega y Gasset (Spanish philosopher) Jack Handey (American humorist known for "Deep Thoughts" jokes) Laurel Lee (American memoirist) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Realizing that you will die greatly clarifies your vision of life, and stimulates opportunities for making the vision real.”  –Ed Buryn In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ed discuss the impetus behind Ed’s first travels to Europe by van in the 1960s, and his early forays into self-printed and self-promoted books about the experience (3:00); how travel to Europe was different 50 years ago, and the joy and freedom that comes with not knowing what happens next (14:30); Ed’s philosophies and influences, including living in “the now” (21:00); how travel allows you to reinvent yourself, and how meeting people is the best gift of travel (36:00); and Ed’s ambitions for poetry and travel, and his advice to travelers in today's world (44:30). Ed Buryn is an author and photographer who was one of the first to popularize the term “vagabonding” through the publication of his books Vagabonding In Europe and North America and Vagabonding in America. For more about Ed, check out https://edburyn.com. Notable Links: Kevin Kelly (writer, editor, and publisher) Tony Wheeler (founder of Lonely Planet travel guides) Bill Dalton (founder of Moon travel guides) Charles Plymell on the Beat Generation (Deviate episode) The Drifters, by James Michener (book) Zorba the Greek, by Nikos Kazantzakis (book) Henry Miller (author) CouchSurfing ((homestay and social networking service) Richard Halliburton (traveler and author) Tarot (playing cards used for divination) Nevada City (community in northern California) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Realizing that you will die greatly clarifies your vision of life, and stimulates opportunities for making the vision real.”  –Ed Buryn In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ed discuss the impetus behind Ed’s first travels to Europe by van in the 1960s, and his early forays into self-printed and self-promoted books about the experience (3:00); how travel to Europe was different 50 years ago, and the joy and freedom that comes with not knowing what happens next (14:30); Ed’s philosophies and influences, including living in “the now” (21:00); how travel allows you to reinvent yourself, and how meeting people is the best gift of travel (36:00); and Ed’s ambitions for poetry and travel, and his advice to travelers in today's world (44:30). Ed Buryn is an author and photographer who was one of the first to popularize the term “vagabonding” through the publication of his books Vagabonding In Europe and North America and Vagabonding in America. For more about Ed, check out https://edburyn.com. Notable Links: Kevin Kelly (writer, editor, and publisher) Tony Wheeler (founder of Lonely Planet travel guides) Bill Dalton (founder of Moon travel guides) Charles Plymell on the Beat Generation (Deviate episode) The Drifters, by James Michener (book) Zorba the Greek, by Nikos Kazantzakis (book) Henry Miller (author) CouchSurfing ((homestay and social networking service) Richard Halliburton (traveler and author) Tarot (playing cards used for divination) Nevada City (community in northern California) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"No one motivation is ‘better' than any other. We travel with different motivations at different times, and they sometimes overlap." –Ash Bhardwaj In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ash talk about curiosity as a motivation for travel (1:30); the ancient Greek concepts of happiness that underpin human motivations like travel, and how mentors influence travel (14:00); serendipity as a motivation for travel, Type One versus Type Two fun, and the dangers of "voluntourism" (21:00); how "awe" differs from "wonder," how to bring these perspectives home, and how "eroticism" can be a part of travel (36:30); "grief travel," and how one's sense for travel can become intertwined with a sense of hope (48:30). Ash Bhardwaj is an award-winning journalist and broadcaster, and the author of Why We Travel. Notable Links: Paris travel memoir workshop, with Rolf Potts (creative writing class) Banana Pancake Trail (backpacker route in Southeast Asia) Hedonism (philosophical concept involving pleasure) Eudaimonia (philosophical concept involving happiness) A Moveable Feast (posthumous memoir by Ernest Hemingway) Georges Perec (French novelist) Beginner's Mind (Zen Buddhist concept) Levison Wood (British explorer) Arsenal F.C. (English soccer team) Joseph Kony (Ugandan warlord) Flow (focused mental state) Mihály Csíkszentmihályi (Hungarian-American psychologist) NGO (non-governmental aid organizations) Air Vanuatu (national airline in the South Pacific) Hokitika (town in New Zealand) Pounamu (stone valued by the Māori) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"No one motivation is ‘better' than any other. We travel with different motivations at different times, and they sometimes overlap." –Ash Bhardwaj In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ash talk about curiosity as a motivation for travel (1:30); the ancient Greek concepts of happiness that underpin human motivations like travel, and how mentors influence travel (14:00); serendipity as a motivation for travel, Type One versus Type Two fun, and the dangers of "voluntourism" (21:00); how "awe" differs from "wonder," how to bring these perspectives home, and how "eroticism" can be a part of travel (36:30); "grief travel," and how one's sense for travel can become intertwined with a sense of hope (48:30). Ash Bhardwaj is an award-winning journalist and broadcaster, and the author of Why We Travel. Notable Links: Paris travel memoir workshop, with Rolf Potts (creative writing class) Banana Pancake Trail (backpacker route in Southeast Asia) Hedonism (philosophical concept involving pleasure) Eudaimonia (philosophical concept involving happiness) A Moveable Feast (posthumous memoir by Ernest Hemingway) Georges Perec (French novelist) Beginner's Mind (Zen Buddhist concept) Levison Wood (British explorer) Arsenal F.C. (English soccer team) Joseph Kony (Ugandan warlord) Flow (focused mental state) Mihály Csíkszentmihályi (Hungarian-American psychologist) NGO (non-governmental aid organizations) Air Vanuatu (national airline in the South Pacific) Hokitika (town in New Zealand) Pounamu (stone valued by the Māori) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30). Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin. Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center. Notable Links: 2025 Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan (creative writing class) Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes) Before Sunrise (1995 movie) Before Sunset (2004 movie) Ethan Hawke (American actor and director) Julie Delpy (French actress and director) Richard Linklater (American filmmaker) Kristen "Kiki" Bush in People, Places & Things (2022 play at the Studio Theatre) Thoughts on watching the Before trilogy, 25 years on, by Rolf Potts (essay) BritRail (train pass in the UK) London A-Z (street atlas) Siouxsie and the Banshees (British rock band) Wembley Stadium (London venue) Continuous partial attention (behavior) Slacker (1990 film) Dazed and Confused (1993 film) Anaïs Nin (French-American diarist and novelist) Eurail Pass (train pass to 33 European countries) The Game Camera (trailer for 2025 short film made by Kiki and Rolf) Uncle Vanya (play by Anton Chekhov) Robert Falls (former artistic director of Chicago's Goodman Theater) Melissa Fite Johnson (poet) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30). Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin. Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center. Notable Links: 2025 Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan (creative writing class) Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes) Before Sunrise (1995 movie) Before Sunset (2004 movie) Ethan Hawke (American actor and director) Julie Delpy (French actress and director) Richard Linklater (American filmmaker) Kristen "Kiki" Bush in People, Places & Things (2022 play at the Studio Theatre) Thoughts on watching the Before trilogy, 25 years on, by Rolf Potts (essay) BritRail (train pass in the UK) London A-Z (street atlas) Siouxsie and the Banshees (British rock band) Wembley Stadium (London venue) Continuous partial attention (behavior) Slacker (1990 film) Dazed and Confused (1993 film) Anaïs Nin (French-American diarist and novelist) Eurail Pass (train pass to 33 European countries) The Game Camera (trailer for 2025 short film made by Kiki and Rolf) Uncle Vanya (play by Anton Chekhov) Robert Falls (former artistic director of Chicago's Goodman Theater) Melissa Fite Johnson (poet) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30). Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin. Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center. Notable Links: 2025 Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan (creative writing class) Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes) Before Sunrise (1995 movie) Before Sunset (2004 movie) Ethan Hawke (American actor and director) Julie Delpy (French actress and director) Richard Linklater (American filmmaker) Kristen "Kiki" Bush in People, Places & Things (2022 play at the Studio Theatre) Thoughts on watching the Before trilogy, 25 years on, by Rolf Potts (essay) BritRail (train pass in the UK) London A-Z (street atlas) Siouxsie and the Banshees (British rock band) Wembley Stadium (London venue) Continuous partial attention (behavior) Slacker (1990 film) Dazed and Confused (1993 film) Anaïs Nin (French-American diarist and novelist) Eurail Pass (train pass to 33 European countries) The Game Camera (trailer for 2025 short film made by Kiki and Rolf) Uncle Vanya (play by Anton Chekhov) Robert Falls (former artistic director of Chicago's Goodman Theater) Melissa Fite Johnson (poet) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30). Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin. Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center. Notable Links: 2025 Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan (creative writing class) Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes) Before Sunrise (1995 movie) Before Sunset (2004 movie) Ethan Hawke (American actor and director) Julie Delpy (French actress and director) Richard Linklater (American filmmaker) Kristen "Kiki" Bush in People, Places & Things (2022 play at the Studio Theatre) Thoughts on watching the Before trilogy, 25 years on, by Rolf Potts (essay) BritRail (train pass in the UK) London A-Z (street atlas) Siouxsie and the Banshees (British rock band) Wembley Stadium (London venue) Continuous partial attention (behavior) Slacker (1990 film) Dazed and Confused (1993 film) Anaïs Nin (French-American diarist and novelist) Eurail Pass (train pass to 33 European countries) The Game Camera (trailer for 2025 short film made by Kiki and Rolf) Uncle Vanya (play by Anton Chekhov) Robert Falls (former artistic director of Chicago's Goodman Theater) Melissa Fite Johnson (poet) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“If you’re someone who’s always dreamed of going to Mars but you don’t have the time to become an astronaut, you can just visit the Atacama Desert.” –Mark Johanson In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Mark talk about how Mark became interested in the Atacama Desert, and his experience in other world deserts (1:45); what Mark sought when he traveled through the region (16:00); what it’s like to experience the area, and why it’s known as “Mars on Earth” (26:00); what travelers can do there, and what it’s like for Mark to live in Chile (36:30). Mark Johanson (@markonthemap) is an American journalist and travel writer based in Santiago, Chile. His first book is Mars on Earth: Wanderings in the World's Driest Desert. Notable Links: Atacama Desert (desert plateau located in Chile) Coober Pedy (town in the Australian Outback) Desert Solitaire, by Edward Abbey (book) The English Patient, by Michael Ondaatje (book) The Songlines, by Bruce Chatwin (book) Man in the Landscape, by Paul Shepard (book) Chinchorro mummies (ancient remains in the Atacama Desert) Qhapaq Ñan (Inca road system) Arica (province in Chile) Altiplano (Andean Plateau) Lands of Lost Borders, by Kate Harris (book) Pan-American Highway (road network) Cusco (city in Peru) San Pedro de Atacama (town in Chile) Elqui Valley (wine and astronomy region in Chile) Gabriela Mistral (Nobel Prize-winning poet) Pisco (fermented spirit made from grapes) Pisco sour (cocktail) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“If you're someone who's always dreamed of going to Mars but you don't have the time to become an astronaut, you can just visit the Atacama Desert.” –Mark Johanson In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Mark talk about how Mark became interested in the Atacama Desert, and his experience in other world deserts (1:45); what Mark sought when he traveled through the region (16:00); what it's like to experience the area, and why it's known as "Mars on Earth" (26:00); what travelers can do there, and what it's like for Mark to live in Chile (36:30). Mark Johanson (@markonthemap) is an American journalist and travel writer based in Santiago, Chile. His first book is Mars on Earth: Wanderings in the World's Driest Desert. Notable Links: Atacama Desert (desert plateau located in Chile) Coober Pedy (town in the Australian Outback) Desert Solitaire, by Edward Abbey (book) The English Patient, by Michael Ondaatje (book) The Songlines, by Bruce Chatwin (book) Man in the Landscape, by Paul Shepard (book) Chinchorro mummies (ancient remains in the Atacama Desert) Qhapaq Ñan (Inca road system) Arica (province in Chile) Altiplano (Andean Plateau) Lands of Lost Borders, by Kate Harris (book) Pan-American Highway (road network) Cusco (city in Peru) San Pedro de Atacama (town in Chile) Elqui Valley (wine and astronomy region in Chile) Gabriela Mistral (Nobel Prize-winning poet) Pisco (fermented spirit made from grapes) Pisco sour (cocktail) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Travel does not require leaving your city or state or country, but it does require leaving your comfort zone. And that can happen a block or two away from where you live.” –Chloe Cooper Jones In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Chloe talk about why a section about “slum tourism” was cut out of Rolf’s newest book The Vagabond’s Way (2:30); how so much of what we talk about when we talk about travel has industrialized middle-class presumptions (7:30); the motivations and ethical considerations that underpin seeking out disadvantaged neighborhoods as a traveler (15:00); how preconceived narratives and “cultural extraction” often motivates people’s experience in a city, in ways that do not always benefit the city (25:00); what “dark tourism” and “voluntourism” are, and what the ethical ramifications are for travelers (32:00); and the difference between articulating ideals, and the work of acting on those ideals (45:00). Chloe Cooper Jones (@CCooperJones) is the author of Easy Beauty: A Memoir. She has been a Pulitzer Prize finalist in Feature Writing, and was the recipient of a Whiting Creative Nonfiction Grant, as well as a Howard Foundation Grant from Brown University. Notable Links: Integrating love of travel & love of home (Deviate episode 210) The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) The Most Beautiful Walk in the World, by John Baxter (book) Slum tourism (tours to poor areas of a city) Poetics, by Aristotle (dramatic theory) Republic, by Plato (Socratic dialogue) Immanuel Kant (philosopher) Slumdog Millionaire (2008 movie) Apartheid (system of institutionalized racial segregation) Favela (slum in Brazil) Yelp (crowd-sourced business review app) Dark tourism (tourism to places associated with tragedy) 1990 Hesston tornado outbreak (Kansas weather event) Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum (tourism attraction in Cambodia) Saw (movie franchise) Voluntourism (volunteering-themed travel) Hurricane Katrina (2005 Gulf Coast weather event) Lower Ninth Ward (New Orleans neighborhood) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Travel does not require leaving your city or state or country, but it does require leaving your comfort zone. And that can happen a block or two away from where you live.” –Chloe Cooper Jones In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Chloe talk about why a section about “slum tourism” was cut out of Rolf’s newest book The Vagabond’s Way (2:30); how so much of what we talk about when we talk about travel has industrialized middle-class presumptions (7:30); the motivations and ethical considerations that underpin seeking out disadvantaged neighborhoods as a traveler (15:00); how preconceived narratives and “cultural extraction” often motivates people’s experience in a city, in ways that do not always benefit the city (25:00); what “dark tourism” and “voluntourism” are, and what the ethical ramifications are for travelers (32:00); and the difference between articulating ideals, and the work of acting on those ideals (45:00). Chloe Cooper Jones (@CCooperJones) is the author of Easy Beauty: A Memoir. She has been a Pulitzer Prize finalist in Feature Writing, and was the recipient of a Whiting Creative Nonfiction Grant, as well as a Howard Foundation Grant from Brown University. Notable Links: Integrating love of travel & love of home (Deviate episode 210) The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) The Most Beautiful Walk in the World, by John Baxter (book) Slum tourism (tours to poor areas of a city) Poetics, by Aristotle (dramatic theory) Republic, by Plato (Socratic dialogue) Immanuel Kant (philosopher) Slumdog Millionaire (2008 movie) Apartheid (system of institutionalized racial segregation) Favela (slum in Brazil) Yelp (crowd-sourced business review app) Dark tourism (tourism to places associated with tragedy) 1990 Hesston tornado outbreak (Kansas weather event) Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum (tourism attraction in Cambodia) Saw (movie franchise) Voluntourism (volunteering-themed travel) Hurricane Katrina (2005 Gulf Coast weather event) Lower Ninth Ward (New Orleans neighborhood) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“The most difficult part about traveling the world isn't actually the logistics of a trip—it's finding the courage to go in the first place.” —Matt Kepnes In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about how his travel style has changed over the years, and how fears affect people’s travels (1:00); strategies for saving money on the road (10:30); and strategies for finding activities on the road, and where to start a long-term journey (19:30). Matt Kepnes (@nomadicmatt), commonly known as “Nomadic Matt,” is a travel blogger and the New York Times bestselling author of Travel the World on $75 a Day and Ten Years a Nomad. Notable Links: The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Levison Wood (explorer) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Home exchange (lodging service) Trusted Housesitters (lodging service) Travel Ladies (lodging app) EatWith,com (hospitality service) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“The most difficult part about traveling the world isn't actually the logistics of a trip—it's finding the courage to go in the first place.” —Matt Kepnes In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about how his travel style has changed over the years, and how fears affect people’s travels (1:00); strategies for saving money on the road (10:30); and strategies for finding activities on the road, and where to start a long-term journey (19:30). Matt Kepnes (@nomadicmatt), commonly known as “Nomadic Matt,” is a travel blogger and the New York Times bestselling author of Travel the World on $75 a Day and Ten Years a Nomad. Notable Links: The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Levison Wood (explorer) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Home exchange (lodging service) Trusted Housesitters (lodging service) Travel Ladies (lodging app) EatWith,com (hospitality service) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We do a lot of writing alone, in our own space. But writing is not a solitary practice. The business of writing requires a community.” –Angelique Stevens In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Angelique talk about what her writing life is like in the decade since she first took Rolf’s Paris class, with the ambition of becoming a travel writer, and how her travel book transformed into something different (2:00); how Angelique gave herself permission to write about herself in an honest way, and what craft lessons have helped her writing (8:00); and Angelique’s reading habits as a writer, her writing process, and how she came to think of herself as a writer (23:00). Angelique Stevens‘ is creative writing professor whose nonfiction has been published in Best American Essays two years in a row (2022, edited by Alexander Chee and 2023 edited by Vivian Gornick), Granta, LitHub, The New England Review, and a number of anthologies. Notable Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s annual writing classes) Zapatistas (political group in in Chiapas, Mexico) Bootstrapping myth (narrative about self-starting process) Haudenosaunee (Iroquois indigenous people from the Northeast U.S) Zora Neale Hurston (American writer) Toni Morrison (American novelist) Melissa Febos (American writer) Honor, by Thrity Umrigar (book) The Situation and the Story, by Vivian Gornick (book) A Little Devil in America, by Hanif Abdurraqib (book) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We do a lot of writing alone, in our own space. But writing is not a solitary practice. The business of writing requires a community.” –Angelique Stevens In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Angelique talk about what her writing life is like in the decade since she first took Rolf’s Paris class, with the ambition of becoming a travel writer, and how her travel book transformed into something different (2:00); how Angelique gave herself permission to write about herself in an honest way, and what craft lessons have helped her writing (8:00); and Angelique’s reading habits as a writer, her writing process, and how she came to think of herself as a writer (23:00). Angelique Stevens‘ is creative writing professor whose nonfiction has been published in Best American Essays two years in a row (2022, edited by Alexander Chee and 2023 edited by Vivian Gornick), Granta, LitHub, The New England Review, and a number of anthologies. Notable Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s annual writing classes) Zapatistas (political group in in Chiapas, Mexico) Bootstrapping myth (narrative about self-starting process) Haudenosaunee (Iroquois indigenous people from the Northeast U.S) Zora Neale Hurston (American writer) Toni Morrison (American novelist) Melissa Febos (American writer) Honor, by Thrity Umrigar (book) The Situation and the Story, by Vivian Gornick (book) A Little Devil in America, by Hanif Abdurraqib (book) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Anybody with curiosity and wanderlust can have their own Hippie Trail. They just need to get away from home, embrace the world, and have an adventure.” –Rick Steves In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Rick talk about Rick’s 1990s book Asia Through the Back Door, and how Rick recently rediscovered the old Asia travel journals he kept as a young man (2:30); how Rick prepared for the journey in the era before there were many guidebooks to the regions he was headed (9:30); what the experience of travel was like for Rick and his friend Gene on the Hippie Trail, including spiritual experiences (18:00); how travel can expand your sense of community, and diversify your sense for what wealth and poverty is (28:00); Rick’s first experience of smoking hash on the Hippie Trail, and how it gave him an appreciation for the joy of travel (34:00); and what lessons Rick brought home from the experience (39:00). Rick Steves (@ricksteveseurope) is a travel expert, author, and TV host who specializes in Europe. His newest book is On the Hippie Trail: Istanbul to Kathmandu and the Making of a Travel Writer. Notable Links: Kevin Kelly on the lost world of 1970s Asia (Deviate episode) Travel can be a way to see the future, with Kevin Kelly (Deviate episode) Vagabonding pioneer Ed Buryn (Deviate episode) Hippie trail (Asia travel route in the 1960s and 1970s) Asia Through the Back Door, by Rick Steves (book) Iranian revolution (1979 overthrow of U.S. backed government) Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (conflict that started in 1979) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Lonely Planet (guidebook publisher) Rick Steves’ Europe (TV show) Bucket shop (wholesale of air tickets) The Man Who Would be King (1975 film) ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) LCMS (Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod) Bread for the World (Christian advocacy organization) Herat (city in Afghanistan) Freak Street (neighborhood near Durbar Square in Kathmandu) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Anybody with curiosity and wanderlust can have their own Hippie Trail. They just need to get away from home, embrace the world, and have an adventure.” –Rick Steves In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Rick talk about Rick’s 1990s book Asia Through the Back Door, and how Rick recently rediscovered the old Asia travel journals he kept as a young man (2:30); how Rick prepared for the journey in the era before there were many guidebooks to the regions he was headed (9:30); what the experience of travel was like for Rick and his friend Gene on the Hippie Trail, including spiritual experiences (18:00); how travel can expand your sense of community, and diversify your sense for what wealth and poverty is (28:00); Rick’s first experience of smoking hash on the Hippie Trail, and how it gave him an appreciation for the joy of travel (34:00); and what lessons Rick brought home from the experience (39:00). Rick Steves (@ricksteveseurope) is a travel expert, author, and TV host who specializes in Europe. His newest book is On the Hippie Trail: Istanbul to Kathmandu and the Making of a Travel Writer. Notable Links: Kevin Kelly on the lost world of 1970s Asia (Deviate episode) Travel can be a way to see the future, with Kevin Kelly (Deviate episode) Vagabonding pioneer Ed Buryn (Deviate episode) Hippie trail (Asia travel route in the 1960s and 1970s) Asia Through the Back Door, by Rick Steves (book) Iranian revolution (1979 overthrow of U.S. backed government) Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (conflict that started in 1979) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Lonely Planet (guidebook publisher) Rick Steves’ Europe (TV show) Bucket shop (wholesale of air tickets) The Man Who Would be King (1975 film) ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) LCMS (Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod) Bread for the World (Christian advocacy organization) Herat (city in Afghanistan) Freak Street (neighborhood near Durbar Square in Kathmandu) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“My life has often forced me to follow the Super Bowl in unusual circumstances. The first Super Bowl found me in boarding school in England, huddled under my bedclothes with an illegal transistor radio.” –Pico Iyer In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about the novelty of two travel writers talking about the Super Bowl, and Pico’s NFL fandom (4:00); how sports can be a therapeutic diversion from the more serious aspects of life, and which players are Rolf and Pico’s all-time favorites (13:00); Pico and Rolf’s old articles for Sports Illustrated, and how narratives attach themselves to sporting contests (21:00); and what Pico’s plan and predication is for the 2025 Super Bowl (32:30). Pico Iyer (@PicoIyer) is a novelist, essayist, and author. His newest book is Aflame: Learning from Silence. Notable Links: A personal history of being a lifelong pro-sports fan (Deviate Super Bowl special 2020) The Native Americans that beat the NFL Giants (Deviate Super Bowl special 2023) Sports, superstitions, and sacraments (Deviate Super Bowl special 2024) Pico Iyer on solitude, stillness, and silence (Deviate episode) Pascal’s wager (philosophical argument) Edgar Allan Poe (American poet) Wichita North (high school in Kansas) Sports Illustrated (magazine) Eton’s Brutal, Incomprehensible Wall Game, by Pico Iyer (1995 article) Murder of football player in Kansas shakes town, by Rolf Potts (2012 article) Ralph Henry Barbour (early 20th century sports fiction writer) Notes On the Narrative Conundrum of Baseball Fandom, by Rolf Potts (article) Vin Scully (sportscaster for the LA Dodgers) Chick Hearn (sportscaster for the LA Lakers) Bill Simmons (podcaster) Nick Wright (sportscaster) 2014 American League Wild Card Game (Royals-A’s baseball playoff game) Wesley Morris (media critic) NFL football links: Baltimore Ravens (NFL football team with literary mascot) Derrick Henry (NFL running back) Tony Romo (retired NFL quarterback and commentator) Chris Collinsworth (retired NFL wide receiver and commentator) Jared Goff (NFL quarterback for the Detroit Lions) Josh Allen (NFL quarterback for the Buffalo Bills) Super Bowl I (first AFL–NFL World Championship Game) Max McGee (former NFL end for the Green Bay Packers) Super Bowl LI (2017 Falcons-Patriots Super Bowl) Super Bowl LV (2021 Chiefs-Buccaneers Super Bowl) John Brodie (former NFL quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers) Brock Purdy (NFL quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers) Barry Sanders (retired NFL running back for the Detroit Lions) Joe Montana (former NFL quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers) Saquon Barkley (NFL running back for the Philadelphia Eagles) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“My life has often forced me to follow the Super Bowl in unusual circumstances. The first Super Bowl found me in boarding school in England, huddled under my bedclothes with an illegal transistor radio.” –Pico Iyer In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about the novelty of two travel writers talking about the Super Bowl, and Pico’s NFL fandom (4:00); how sports can be a therapeutic diversion from the more serious aspects of life, and which players are Rolf and Pico’s all-time favorites (13:00); Pico and Rolf’s old articles for Sports Illustrated, and how narratives attach themselves to sporting contests (21:00); and what Pico’s plan and predication is for the 2025 Super Bowl (32:30). Pico Iyer (@PicoIyer) is a novelist, essayist, and author. His newest book is Aflame: Learning from Silence. Notable Links: A personal history of being a lifelong pro-sports fan (Deviate Super Bowl special 2020) The Native Americans that beat the NFL Giants (Deviate Super Bowl special 2023) Sports, superstitions, and sacraments (Deviate Super Bowl special 2024) Pico Iyer on solitude, stillness, and silence (Deviate episode) Pascal’s wager (philosophical argument) Edgar Allan Poe (American poet) Wichita North (high school in Kansas) Sports Illustrated (magazine) Eton’s Brutal, Incomprehensible Wall Game, by Pico Iyer (1995 article) Murder of football player in Kansas shakes town, by Rolf Potts (2012 article) Ralph Henry Barbour (early 20th century sports fiction writer) Notes On the Narrative Conundrum of Baseball Fandom, by Rolf Potts (article) Vin Scully (sportscaster for the LA Dodgers) Chick Hearn (sportscaster for the LA Lakers) Bill Simmons (podcaster) Nick Wright (sportscaster) 2014 American League Wild Card Game (Royals-A’s baseball playoff game) Wesley Morris (media critic) NFL football links: Baltimore Ravens (NFL football team with literary mascot) Derrick Henry (NFL running back) Tony Romo (retired NFL quarterback and commentator) Chris Collinsworth (retired NFL wide receiver and commentator) Jared Goff (NFL quarterback for the Detroit Lions) Josh Allen (NFL quarterback for the Buffalo Bills) Super Bowl I (first AFL–NFL World Championship Game) Max McGee (former NFL end for the Green Bay Packers) Super Bowl LI (2017 Falcons-Patriots Super Bowl) Super Bowl LV (2021 Chiefs-Buccaneers Super Bowl) John Brodie (former NFL quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers) Brock Purdy (NFL quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers) Barry Sanders (retired NFL running back for the Detroit Lions) Joe Montana (former NFL quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers) Saquon Barkley (NFL running back for the Philadelphia Eagles) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“In solitude, I often feel closer to the people I care for than when they're in the same room.” –Pico Iyer In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about how the best travels are often counterbalanced with a kind of stillness, in which one can find one’s “best self” (3:00); Pico’s decades-long experiences with monks in a California monastery, the benefits of a “childlike attitude” toward life, and how “fire” can be a metaphor for spiritual life (12:00); how Pico’s solitude is informed by, and in conversation with, nature (22:00); Pico’s engaged relationship with spiritual communities, even though he is not religious (30:00); the “counterculture” spiritual tradition that grew up around Big Sur, California, and the power of longing (39:00); and how solitude can be a gateway to other people (47:00). Pico Iyer (@PicoIyer) is a novelist, essayist, and author. His newest book is Aflame: Learning from Silence. Notable Links: Pico Iyer on what Japan can teach us about life (Deviate episode 73) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Henri Nouwen (writer and theologian) New Seeds of Contemplation, by Thomas Merton (book) The 14th Dalai Lama (spiritual leader) The Snow Leopard, by Peter Matthiessen (book) Richard Powers (novelist) Desert Fathers (early Christian hermits and ascetics) Sign of Jonas, by Thomas Merton (book) Days of Heaven (1978 film) 4′33″ by John Cage (musical composition) New Camaldoli Hermitage (hermitage in Big Sur, California) Rigveda (ancient Indian collection of hymns) The Woman Lit by Fireflies, by Jim Harrison (book) Sarmoung Brotherhood (esoteric Sufi brotherhood) Henry Miller (novelist) Esalen Institute (retreat center in Big Sur) Bittersweet, by Susan Cain (book) Leonard Cohen (songwriter) Ludwig Wittgenstein (philosopher) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“In solitude, I often feel closer to the people I care for than when they're in the same room.” –Pico Iyer In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about how the best travels are often counterbalanced with a kind of stillness, in which one can find one’s “best self” (3:00); Pico’s decades-long experiences with monks in a California monastery, the benefits of a “childlike attitude” toward life, and how “fire” can be a metaphor for spiritual life (12:00); how Pico’s solitude is informed by, and in conversation with, nature (22:00); Pico’s engaged relationship with spiritual communities, even though he is not religious (30:00); the “counterculture” spiritual tradition that grew up around Big Sur, California, and the power of longing (39:00); and how solitude can be a gateway to other people (47:00). Pico Iyer (@PicoIyer) is a novelist, essayist, and author. His newest book is Aflame: Learning from Silence. Notable Links: Pico Iyer on what Japan can teach us about life (Deviate episode 73) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Henri Nouwen (writer and theologian) New Seeds of Contemplation, by Thomas Merton (book) The 14th Dalai Lama (spiritual leader) The Snow Leopard, by Peter Matthiessen (book) Richard Powers (novelist) Desert Fathers (early Christian hermits and ascetics) Sign of Jonas, by Thomas Merton (book) Days of Heaven (1978 film) 4′33″ by John Cage (musical composition) New Camaldoli Hermitage (hermitage in Big Sur, California) Rigveda (ancient Indian collection of hymns) The Woman Lit by Fireflies, by Jim Harrison (book) Sarmoung Brotherhood (esoteric Sufi brotherhood) Henry Miller (novelist) Esalen Institute (retreat center in Big Sur) Bittersweet, by Susan Cain (book) Leonard Cohen (songwriter) Ludwig Wittgenstein (philosopher) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Syria is a mix of everything. There are multiple Christian cultures, multiple Muslim cultures, and multiple languages. It’s the crossroads of the world. It made for some of my best travel memories from that time of my life.” —Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate (which was remixed from an episode of Ari Shaffir’s You Be Trippin’ podcast), Rolf and Ari talk about when and why Rolf traveled to Syria back in the day, and what it was like when he got there (3:30); his experience in staying in a Christian monastery in the mountains outside of Damascus (18:30); Rolf’s journey to the Tigris River, his experience with the Kurds he met in a Syria-Turkey border town, and the types of food on offer in Syria (28:30); Rolf’s enjoyable experience of watching the movie Con Air on a long-distance bus in Syria, and his experience of going to a Sudanese refugee church in Damascus (37:00); Rolf’s experience of accepting hospitality from Syrian Kurds, the experience of eavesdropping on American music at an Aleppo hotel, and what it’s like to watch American movies in other countries (47:00); old travel clothing and gear that Rolf still uses 25 years on, and Rolf’s travel tips and next destinations (1:07:00). Ari Shaffir (@AriShaffir) is a comedian, writer, podcaster, and actor. He is the host of theYou Be Trippin’ podcast,. His latest comedy special, JEW, is available on YouTube. Notable Links: Ari Shaffir on Deviate (archive of podcast episodes) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s travel memoir classes) 2011 Syrian revolution (protests and uprisings in Syria) Five Pillars of Islam (fundamental religious practices) Alawites (Arab ethnoreligious group) Ba’athism (Arab nationalist ideology) Qamishli (city on the Syria-Turkey border) Greater Kurdistan (geo-cultural region) Deir Mar Musa (Syriac Catholic monastery) Traveler ideals and hospitality in Syria (Deviate episode) Suicide door (style of automobile door) KDP (Kurdistan Democratic Party) No-fly zone (area protected from specific aircraft) Fuul (Egyptian stew of cooked fava beans) Con Air (1997 movie) Hannibal Lecter (fictional character) Second Sudanese Civil War (1983-2005 conflict) Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (book) Ibn Battuta (14th century Arab traveler) Benjamin of Tudela (12th century Jewish traveler) Anthem Soul (Rolf’s 2001 radio essay about Syria) James Brown (American singer) Djellaba (unisex robe worn in North Africa) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) Tortuga (travel backpack brand) Vanuatu (South Pacific island nation) Animism (belief system) Cargo Cult (Melanesian spiritual movement) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Syria is a mix of everything. There are multiple Christian cultures, multiple Muslim cultures, and multiple languages. It’s the crossroads of the world. It made for some of my best travel memories from that time of my life.” —Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate (which was remixed from an episode of Ari Shaffir’s You Be Trippin’ podcast), Rolf and Ari talk about when and why Rolf traveled to Syria back in the day, and what it was like when he got there (3:30); his experience in staying in a Christian monastery in the mountains outside of Damascus (18:30); Rolf’s journey to the Tigris River, his experience with the Kurds he met in a Syria-Turkey border town, and the types of food on offer in Syria (28:30); Rolf’s enjoyable experience of watching the movie Con Air on a long-distance bus in Syria, and his experience of going to a Sudanese refugee church in Damascus (37:00); Rolf’s experience of accepting hospitality from Syrian Kurds, the experience of eavesdropping on American music at an Aleppo hotel, and what it’s like to watch American movies in other countries (47:00); old travel clothing and gear that Rolf still uses 25 years on, and Rolf’s travel tips and next destinations (1:07:00). Ari Shaffir (@AriShaffir) is a comedian, writer, podcaster, and actor. He is the host of theYou Be Trippin’ podcast,. His latest comedy special, JEW, is available on YouTube. Notable Links: Ari Shaffir on Deviate (archive of podcast episodes) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s travel memoir classes) 2011 Syrian revolution (protests and uprisings in Syria) Five Pillars of Islam (fundamental religious practices) Alawites (Arab ethnoreligious group) Ba’athism (Arab nationalist ideology) Qamishli (city on the Syria-Turkey border) Greater Kurdistan (geo-cultural region) Deir Mar Musa (Syriac Catholic monastery) Traveler ideals and hospitality in Syria (Deviate episode) Suicide door (style of automobile door) KDP (Kurdistan Democratic Party) No-fly zone (area protected from specific aircraft) Fuul (Egyptian stew of cooked fava beans) Con Air (1997 movie) Hannibal Lecter (fictional character) Second Sudanese Civil War (1983-2005 conflict) Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (book) Ibn Battuta (14th century Arab traveler) Benjamin of Tudela (12th century Jewish traveler) Anthem Soul (Rolf’s 2001 radio essay about Syria) James Brown (American singer) Djellaba (unisex robe worn in North Africa) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) Tortuga (travel backpack brand) Vanuatu (South Pacific island nation) Animism (belief system) Cargo Cult (Melanesian spiritual movement) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“In El Salvador, I dropped $5 out of my pocket at the border, and some guy came running up to me. At the beginning of the trip I would have been surprised by that. But by that point I would have been surprised if it didn’t happen.” —Matt Savino In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about how the first version of his travel book was way too long, and what he ended up editing out (6:00); the origins of Matt’s Central America road trip, why he ended up turning it into a book, and how he ended up taking Rolf’s Paris class (12:00); how Matt’s “Spreadsheet of Pain” helped him edit his book down to manageable size, and how historical research helped his narrative (17:00); how he wrote about a road trip that didn’t actually reach its objective, and how he tried to model his narrative on Bill Bryson’s writing (26:00); how Matt used a hybrid publisher to get his travel book into the world in two years (31:00); the challenges, idiosyncrasies, and creative joys that come with creating a hybrid published book (39:00); how AI bots determined that Matt had “plagiarized” what turned out to be his own book (54:00); and Matt’s advice for people interested in hybrid publishing (60:30). Matt Savino (@ushuaia_or_bust) is the author of Land Without a Continent: A Road Trip through Mexico and Central America. He can be contacted via his website. Notable Links: Paris travel memoir writing workshop (Rolf’s writing classes) Matt’s Spreadsheet of Pain (note explainer tab at the bottom) No Baggage Challenge (Rolf’s 2010 blog and video series) Justin's elephant-poop cold remedy (2010 video) Walking every single street in NYC (Deviate episode) The Sweet Superstition of Rooting for the Royals, by Rolf Potts (essay) Van Life Before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Developmental editing (pre-publication writing support) Hybrid publishing (assisted self-publishing) Jew (comedy special by Ari Shaffir) Perhapsing (nonfiction narrative strategy) Illumify Media (hybrid publisher) Cliff Clavin (fictional character on Cheers) IngramSpark (self-publishing book company) Kindle Direct Publishing (e-book publishing platform) Authors, books, and agents mentioned: Bill Bryson (author) Julie Pesano (travel writer and teacher) Cole Kazdin (writer and writing coach) Who Killed the Bishop? by Francisco Goldman (book) Blood of Brothers, by Stephen Kinzer (book) Turning the Tide, by Noam Chomsky (book) A Walk in the Woods, by Bill Bryson (book) Chloe Cooper Jones (author) Eddy L. Harris (travel author) James Faccinto (book publicist and former Paris student) April Eberhardt (literary agent and publishing consultant) AWOL on the Appalachian Trail, by David Miller (book) Pati Jinich (chef, author, and TV host) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“In El Salvador, I dropped $5 out of my pocket at the border, and some guy came running up to me. At the beginning of the trip I would have been surprised by that. But by that point I would have been surprised if it didn’t happen.” —Matt Savino In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about how the first version of his travel book was way too long, and what he ended up editing out (6:00); the origins of Matt’s Central America road trip, why he ended up turning it into a book, and how he ended up taking Rolf’s Paris class (12:00); how Matt’s “Spreadsheet of Pain” helped him edit his book down to manageable size, and how historical research helped his narrative (17:00); how he wrote about a road trip that didn’t actually reach its objective, and how he tried to model his narrative on Bill Bryson’s writing (26:00); how Matt used a hybrid publisher to get his travel book into the world in two years (31:00); the challenges, idiosyncrasies, and creative joys that come with creating a hybrid published book (39:00); how AI bots determined that Matt had “plagiarized” what turned out to be his own book (54:00); and Matt’s advice for people interested in hybrid publishing (60:30). Matt Savino (@ushuaia_or_bust) is the author of Land Without a Continent: A Road Trip through Mexico and Central America. He can be contacted via his website. Notable Links: Paris travel memoir writing workshop (Rolf’s writing classes) Matt’s Spreadsheet of Pain (note explainer tab at the bottom) No Baggage Challenge (Rolf’s 2010 blog and video series) Justin's elephant-poop cold remedy (2010 video) Walking every single street in NYC (Deviate episode) The Sweet Superstition of Rooting for the Royals, by Rolf Potts (essay) Van Life Before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Developmental editing (pre-publication writing support) Hybrid publishing (assisted self-publishing) Jew (comedy special by Ari Shaffir) Perhapsing (nonfiction narrative strategy) Illumify Media (hybrid publisher) Cliff Clavin (fictional character on Cheers) IngramSpark (self-publishing book company) Kindle Direct Publishing (e-book publishing platform) Authors, books, and agents mentioned: Bill Bryson (author) Julie Pesano (travel writer and teacher) Cole Kazdin (writer and writing coach) Who Killed the Bishop? by Francisco Goldman (book) Blood of Brothers, by Stephen Kinzer (book) Turning the Tide, by Noam Chomsky (book) A Walk in the Woods, by Bill Bryson (book) Chloe Cooper Jones (author) Eddy L. Harris (travel author) James Faccinto (book publicist and former Paris student) April Eberhardt (literary agent and publishing consultant) AWOL on the Appalachian Trail, by David Miller (book) Pati Jinich (chef, author, and TV host) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“When we got into this, we didn’t know how to make videos. That’s a skill we’ve had to learn, because the industry has changed so much, from photos to videos. We are still learning all the time.” —Ann Howard In this episode of Deviate, Rolf, Mike, Ann and Kiki talk about they got started traveling as a couple, how they made it affordable, and how they made the transition into the world of content creation (2:15); how to navigate recording and sharing travel experiences that go wrong, including relationship dynamics (9:30); how to make travel “sustainable” in the personal and creative sense of the word (17:00); the advantages of having a “niche” as an influencer, and how sponsored travel works (24:30); and what makes travel influencers stand out from others, and the importance of learning new skills (34:00). Mike & Anne Howard are on The World's Longest Honeymoon, traveling for the last 13 years through 80 countries across all 7 continents. They have written and photographed a National Geographic book on couples adventure travel, Ultimate Journeys for Two, as well as the glamping guidebook, Comfortably Wild. Notable Links: The 10-Year Honeymoon (video) Glamping (upscale camping style) DMO (destination marketing organization) Brunei (country in SE Asia) Timor-Leste (country in SE Asia) How to Get Started Housesitting (article) Co-living (residential community living model) Michelin star (restaurant rating system) Favelas (impoverished neighborhoods in Brazil) World's Most Romantic & Sustainable Destinations (article) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“When we got into this, we didn’t know how to make videos. That’s a skill we’ve had to learn, because the industry has changed so much, from photos to videos. We are still learning all the time.” —Anne Howard In this episode of Deviate, Rolf, Mike, Anne and Kiki talk about they got started traveling as a couple, how they made it affordable, and how they made the transition into the world of content creation (2:15); how to navigate recording and sharing travel experiences that go wrong, including relationship dynamics (9:30); how to make travel “sustainable” in the personal and creative sense of the word (17:00); the advantages of having a “niche” as an influencer, and how sponsored travel works (24:30); and what makes travel influencers stand out from others, and the importance of learning new skills (34:00). Mike & Anne Howard are on The World's Longest Honeymoon, traveling for the last 13 years through 80 countries across all 7 continents. They have written and photographed a National Geographic book on couples adventure travel, Ultimate Journeys for Two, as well as the glamping guidebook, Comfortably Wild. Notable Links: The 10-Year Honeymoon (video) Glamping (upscale camping style) DMO (destination marketing organization) Brunei (country in SE Asia) Timor-Leste (country in SE Asia) How to Get Started Housesitting (article) Co-living (residential community living model) Michelin star (restaurant rating system) Favelas (impoverished neighborhoods in Brazil) World's Most Romantic & Sustainable Destinations (article) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Influencers are forever reinforcing the same images. They’re spending no time in the actual place, other than the requisite time to take the photo. From the local community’s point of view, these kinds of tourists bring very little value.” –Stuart McDonald In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Stuart talk about why Stuart chose to make his office in West Bali, and why South Bali has developed something of a bad reputation in terms of over-tourism (2:30); the mythos of Bali, how it became a “dreamscape” in the Western consciousness, and how it has changed in recent years (6:30); why certain areas in Bali become over-touristed, and how it has recently been affected by “influencers” (18:00); how black magic and ghosts are part of the belief systems of Balinese, yet few travelers ascertain this (24:00); and how much social-media travel content leaves out essential cultural context (31:00). Stuart McDonald (@travelfishery) is the co-founder of Travelfish.org, a travel planning website covering Southeast Asia, which he launched in 2014. He has been traveling in that part of the world since 1993, and living there since 1997. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Bali Hai Immigrant Song (YouTube mashup) Dutch presence in Bali (colonialist history) Eat, Pray, Love, by Elizabeth Gilbert (book) Canggu (coastal village in Bali) Fly-in fly-out [FIFO] (term for temporary laborers) Digital nomads (remote workers who travel) Lonely Planet (travel guidebook publisher) Infinity pool (type of swimming pool) National Geographic (magazine) GetYourGuide (tour company) Gates of Heaven (photogenic temple in Bali) Balinese sacred textiles Kastom (Melanesian traditional culture) Kava (sedative drink in Melanesia) Listicle (article structured as a list) Filterworld: How Algorithms Flattened Culture, by Kyle Chayka (book) Externality (indirect economic cost) This episode of Deviate is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. If you've ever planned a trip with multiple stops, you know that finding the right flights can be difficult. Between balancing travel logistics and cost, it often becomes impossible to build an itinerary that matches your travel goals.  AirTreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey. The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Influencers are forever reinforcing the same images. They’re spending no time in the actual place, other than the requisite time to take the photo. From the local community’s point of view, these kinds of tourists bring very little value.” –Stuart McDonald In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Stuart talk about why Stuart chose to make his office in West Bali, and why South Bali has developed something of a bad reputation in terms of over-tourism (2:30); the mythos of Bali, how it became a “dreamscape” in the Western consciousness, and how it has changed in recent years (6:30); why certain areas in Bali become over-touristed, and how it has recently been affected by “influencers” (18:00); how black magic and ghosts are part of the belief systems of Balinese, yet few travelers ascertain this (24:00); and how much social-media travel content leaves out essential cultural context (31:00). Stuart McDonald (@travelfishery) is the co-founder of Travelfish.org, a travel planning website covering Southeast Asia, which he launched in 2014. He has been traveling in that part of the world since 1993, and living there since 1997. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Bali Hai Immigrant Song (YouTube mashup) Dutch presence in Bali (colonialist history) Eat, Pray, Love, by Elizabeth Gilbert (book) Canggu (coastal village in Bali) Fly-in fly-out [FIFO] (term for temporary laborers) Digital nomads (remote workers who travel) Lonely Planet (travel guidebook publisher) Infinity pool (type of swimming pool) National Geographic (magazine) GetYourGuide (tour company) Gates of Heaven (photogenic temple in Bali) Balinese sacred textiles Kastom (Melanesian traditional culture) Kava (sedative drink in Melanesia) Listicle (article structured as a list) Filterworld: How Algorithms Flattened Culture, by Kyle Chayka (book) Externality (indirect economic cost) This episode of Deviate is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. If you've ever planned a trip with multiple stops, you know that finding the right flights can be difficult. Between balancing travel logistics and cost, it often becomes impossible to build an itinerary that matches your travel goals.  AirTreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey. The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We’re having less enjoyable travel experiences, even as our photos show us having this amazing time, because we’re performing a version of travel for people who aren’t even there.” In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and David talk about the time-honored Americans pretending to be Canadian on the road, and why Americans at times have had a bad reputation abroad (2:30); strategies for avoiding becoming an “Ugly American” on the road (11:00); how a fixation with comfort can get in the way of life-enriching experiences on the road (18:30); how rituals like tipping, interacting with children, or choosing what to wear in public from culture to culture (22:00); how “voluntourism” and charity on the part of travelers is often not as selfless or effective as it pretends to be (30:00); how social media has a way of turning us into superficial, image-obsessed travelers (34:00); and how technology has transformed (and constrained) the way we all travel (39:00). David Martinez is an Associate Professor of Spanish and the director of the Center for Study Abroad at George Fox University in Newberg, Oregon. Notable Links: How to study abroad, even if you aren't a student (Deviate episode 221) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Flag-jacking (the practice of travelers to be from someplace they’re not) Paris Writing Workshop (Rolf’s travel-memoir writing classes) The Comfort Crisis, by Michael Easter (book) Misogi (Japanese Shinto ritual) Voluntourism (short-term charity work for travelers) Picturesque (aesthetic ideal) The Shallows, by Nicholas G. Carr (book) The Scent of Time, by Byung-Chul Han (book) George Fox Talks (podcast) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We’re having less enjoyable travel experiences, even as our photos show us having this amazing time, because we’re performing a version of travel for people who aren’t even there.” In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and David talk about the time-honored practice of Americans pretending to be Canadian on the road, and why Americans at times have had a bad reputation abroad (2:30); strategies for avoiding becoming an “Ugly American” on the road (11:00); how a fixation with comfort can get in the way of life-enriching experiences on the road (18:30); how rituals like tipping, interacting with children, or choosing what to wear in public from culture to culture (22:00); how “voluntourism” and charity on the part of travelers is often not as selfless or effective as it pretends to be (30:00); how social media has a way of turning us into superficial, image-obsessed travelers (34:00); and how technology has transformed (and constrained) the way we all travel (39:00). David Martinez is an Associate Professor of Spanish and the director of the Center for Study Abroad at George Fox University in Newberg, Oregon. Notable Links: How to study abroad, even if you aren't a student (Deviate episode 221) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Flag-jacking (the practice of travelers to be from someplace they’re not) Paris Writing Workshop (Rolf’s travel-memoir writing classes) The Comfort Crisis, by Michael Easter (book) Misogi (Japanese Shinto ritual) Voluntourism (short-term charity work for travelers) Picturesque (aesthetic ideal) The Shallows, by Nicholas G. Carr (book) The Scent of Time, by Byung-Chul Han (book) George Fox Talks (podcast) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Traveling, for me, is all about destroying stereotypes and narratives about people and places.” – Matt Green In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt discuss Matt's mission to walk every street in New York City (3:00); walking across the entire United States and breaking stereotypes (12:00); bucket lists as a catalyst for action (28:00); and Matt's experiences walking in unfamiliar places and finding comfort in being a stranger (50:00). Matt Green is the wanderer who was profiled within the documentary The World Before your Feet, directed by filmmaker Jeremy Workman and produced by Jesse Eisenberg. Matt has walked across the entire United States and is currently in the process of walking every street in New York City. For more about Matt and his current project, check out https://imjustwalkin.com/. Notable Links: East of Eden, by John Steinbeck (book) East of Eden excerpt The Journey Home, by Edward Abbey (book) Cannery Row, by John Steinbeck (book) Cannery Row excerpt Gary House (traveler) The World Before Your Feet at Kanopy This episode is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. If you've ever planned a trip with multiple stops, you know that finding the right flights can be difficult. Between balancing travel logistics and cost, it often becomes impossible to build an itinerary that matches your travel goals.  AirTreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey. The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Traveling, for me, is all about destroying stereotypes and narratives about people and places.” – Matt Green In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt discuss Matt's mission to walk every street in New York City (3:00); walking across the entire United States and breaking stereotypes (12:00); bucket lists as a catalyst for action (28:00); and Matt's experiences walking in unfamiliar places and finding comfort in being a stranger (50:00). Matt Green is the wanderer who was profiled within the documentary The World Before your Feet, directed by filmmaker Jeremy Workman and produced by Jesse Eisenberg. Matt has walked across the entire United States and is currently in the process of walking every street in New York City. For more about Matt and his current project, check out https://imjustwalkin.com/. Notable Links: East of Eden, by John Steinbeck (book) East of Eden excerpt The Journey Home, by Edward Abbey (book) Cannery Row, by John Steinbeck (book) Cannery Row excerpt Gary House (traveler) The World Before Your Feet at Kanopy This episode is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. If you've ever planned a trip with multiple stops, you know that finding the right flights can be difficult. Between balancing travel logistics and cost, it often becomes impossible to build an itinerary that matches your travel goals.  AirTreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey. The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We need positive visions of how all this technology gets deployed, because what we visualize is what we build.” –Jane Metcalfe In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Jane talk about the pioneering work she did with Wired during the dawn of the “digital revolution” (3:00); how and why Jane’s professional focus shifted away from digital issues and into food and health issues in the ’00s (15:00); how science is trying to bring in diverse new data points and communication models to improve holistic health worldwide (28:30); how the health of the world’s humans is not separate from the health of the world’s animals, plants, and microorganisms, and how a bio-economy seeks to harness rather than extract the resources of nature (41:00); how regional and cultural differences affect how we perceive health, nutrition, and technology, and the importance of ethics in making scientific decisions (51:00). Jane Metcalfe (@janemetcalfe) is the co-founder of Wired Magazine, and the chair of the Human Immunome Project, a global non-profit working to decode the immune system in order to transform how we prevent, diagnose, and treat disease. Notable Links: Notes from a peripatetic salon across northern Thailand (Deviate episode) Hotwired (first commercial online magazine) HotBot (early web search engine) Louis Rossetto (writer, editor, and entrepreneur) Neuromancer, by William Gibson (science fiction novel) Snow Crash, by Neal Stephenson (science fiction novel) Cyberpunk (subgenre of science fiction) Electric Word (technology magazine) Digital Revolution (shift from mechanical to electronic technologies) Ethernet (computer networking technology) proto.life (newsletter covering the neobiological revolution) Neo.Life: 25 Visions for the Future of Our Species, by Jane Metcalfe (book) The Non-GMO Project (non-profit organization) David Eagleman (neuroscientist) Human genome (complete set of nucleic acid sequences for humans) Immunome (code set for proteins that constitute the immune system) Single-cell sequencing (context-driven technique for studying cells) Microbiome (community of microorganisms in a habitat) One Health (interdisciplinary approach to ecological health) Zoonotic disease (disease than can jump from non-humans to humans) Bioeconomy (use of biotechnology in the production of goods) CRISPR gene editing (technique to modify genomes of living organisms) Bioengineering (application of biology to create products) Interbeing (philosophical concept in Zen Buddhism) iGEM (worldwide synthetic biology competition) Gene drive (technology of genetic engineering) CRISPRcon (gene editing technology conference) Kevin Kelly (author and futurist) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We need positive visions of how all this technology gets deployed, because what we visualize is what we build.” –Jane Metcalfe In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Jane talk about the pioneering work she did with Wired during the dawn of the “digital revolution” (3:00); how and why Jane’s professional focus shifted away from digital issues and into food and health issues in the ’00s (15:00); how science is trying to bring in diverse new data points and communication models to improve holistic health worldwide (28:30); how the health of the world’s humans is not separate from the health of the world’s animals, plants, and microorganisms, and how a bio-economy seeks to harness rather than extract the resources of nature (41:00); how regional and cultural differences affect how we perceive health, nutrition, and technology, and the importance of ethics in making scientific decisions (51:00). Jane Metcalfe (@janemetcalfe) is the co-founder of Wired Magazine, and the chair of the Human Immunome Project, a global non-profit working to decode the immune system in order to transform how we prevent, diagnose, and treat disease. Notable Links: Notes from a peripatetic salon across northern Thailand (Deviate episode) Hotwired (first commercial online magazine) HotBot (early web search engine) Louis Rossetto (writer, editor, and entrepreneur) Neuromancer, by William Gibson (science fiction novel) Snow Crash, by Neal Stephenson (science fiction novel) Cyberpunk (subgenre of science fiction) Electric Word (technology magazine) Digital Revolution (shift from mechanical to electronic technologies) Ethernet (computer networking technology) proto.life (newsletter covering the neobiological revolution) Neo.Life: 25 Visions for the Future of Our Species, by Jane Metcalfe (book) The Non-GMO Project (non-profit organization) David Eagleman (neuroscientist) Human genome (complete set of nucleic acid sequences for humans) Immunome (code set for proteins that constitute the immune system) Single-cell sequencing (context-driven technique for studying cells) Microbiome (community of microorganisms in a habitat) One Health (interdisciplinary approach to ecological health) Zoonotic disease (disease than can jump from non-humans to humans) Bioeconomy (use of biotechnology in the production of goods) CRISPR gene editing (technique to modify genomes of living organisms) Bioengineering (application of biology to create products) Interbeing (philosophical concept in Zen Buddhism) iGEM (worldwide synthetic biology competition) Gene drive (technology of genetic engineering) CRISPRcon (gene editing technology conference) Kevin Kelly (author and futurist) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“My parents passed away and it created this sense of recklessness in me, but in a positive way: I wanted to create a travel experience and push myself and learn about myself. Because you never know how long you’re gonna be around for.” –Daniel Troia In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Daniel talk about why Daniel chose to bicycle across America with no money or food, the privileges that set him apart from people who have to do it out of necessity, and how this kind of journey is a time-honored undertaking for people experiencing grief (2:00); the kinds of people Daniel met on the trip, how his vulnerability put him into contact with new and unfamiliar people and communities, and how visiting places in person increases empathy with the people who live here (12:30); what Daniel discovered while “dumpster diving,” and other surprises he found on the road (24:30); what it was like to self-document the trip DIY style with camera glasses, a GoPro, and a drone, and what experiences didn’t make it into the film (30:30); the lessons that Daniel brought home from the trip, where he plans to travel next, and his advice for people who want to create their own bike journey (44:00); and an “Easter Egg” about Daniel’s experiences in Kansas (49:00). Daniel Troia (@the_travelin_dude) is the director of We Are All in This Together, which documents his cross-country USA bicycle journey with no food and no money, in search of human connection. Notable Links: The Kindness of Strangers, by Mike McIntyre (book) The Epic of Gilgamesh (ancient Mesopotamian epic poem) Wild: From Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail, by Cheryl Strayed (memoir) The Way (2010 Martin Sheen movie) Dumpster diving (method of gathering discarded food) Dude Making a Difference, by Robin Greenfield Aldi (multinational discount supermarket chain) Tom’s Cartoons (art by unhoused person in Arcata, CA) Camera glasses (wearable camera) GoPro (action camera) East St. Louis (city in Illinois) Two Wheels To Freedom, by Daniel Troia (film) Paterson (city in New Jersey) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“My parents passed away and it created this sense of recklessness in me, but in a positive way: I wanted to create a travel experience and push myself and learn about myself. Because you never know how long you’re gonna be around for.” –Daniel Troia In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Daniel talk about why Daniel chose to bicycle across America with no money or food, the privileges that set him apart from people who have to do it out of necessity, and how this kind of journey is a time-honored undertaking for people experiencing grief (2:00); the kinds of people Daniel met on the trip, how his vulnerability put him into contact with new and unfamiliar people and communities, and how visiting places in person increases empathy with the people who live here (12:30); what Daniel discovered while “dumpster diving,” and other surprises he found on the road (24:30); what it was like to self-document the trip DIY style with camera glasses, a GoPro, and a drone, and what experiences didn’t make it into the film (30:30); the lessons that Daniel brought home from the trip, where he plans to travel next, and his advice for people who want to create their own bike journey (44:00); and an “Easter Egg” about Daniel’s experiences in Kansas (49:00). Daniel Troia (@the_travelin_dude) is the director of We Are All in This Together, which documents his cross-country USA bicycle journey with no food and no money, in search of human connection. Notable Links: The Kindness of Strangers, by Mike McIntyre (book) The Epic of Gilgamesh (ancient Mesopotamian epic poem) Wild: From Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail, by Cheryl Strayed (memoir) The Way (2010 Martin Sheen movie) Dumpster diving (method of gathering discarded food) Dude Making a Difference, by Robin Greenfield Aldi (multinational discount supermarket chain) Tom’s Cartoons (art by unhoused person in Arcata, CA) Camera glasses (wearable camera) GoPro (action camera) East St. Louis (city in Illinois) Two Wheels To Freedom, by Daniel Troia (film) Paterson (city in New Jersey) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“The parent’s job as teacher on the road is to just create surface area between your kid and yourself and the world.”  –Julie Frieder In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Julie talk about what a “Wonder Year” is, how she got involved with family travel, and why traveling with children is possible and enriching for everyone involved (1:30); how to get started planning a family vagabonding journey, where to go, how long to go, how to save money, and why travel is good for your mental health (14:00); how to involve your kids in planning a travel journey, why being open to serendipity can wok better than micromanaging activities, what “worldschooling” is, and how to plan education activities on the road (27:00); how parents can learn alongside their kids on the road, and how to deal with challenges like homesickness and culture shock (39:30); the task of returning home after a long journey, and how travel makes us better parents (46:00). Julie Frieder is the coauthor (along with Angela Heisten and Annika Paradise) of Wonder Year: A Guide to Long-Term Family Travel and Worldschooling. Notable Links: The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Hydrogeology (geology focusing on groundwater) Temple Grandin (animal behaviorist) “Awe Is Good for Your Brain,” by Florence Williams (Outside article) WWOOF (World Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms) Unschooling (experiential learning method) HSLDA (homeschooling resource website) Worldschoolers (Facebook group) Lands of Lost Borders , by Kate Harris (book) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“The parent’s job as teacher on the road is to just create surface area between your kid and yourself and the world.”  –Julie Frieder In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Julie talk about what a “Wonder Year” is, how she got involved with family travel, and why traveling with children is possible and enriching for everyone involved (1:30); how to get started planning a family vagabonding journey, where to go, how long to go, how to save money, and why travel is good for your mental health (14:00); how to involve your kids in planning a travel journey, why being open to serendipity can wok better than micromanaging activities, what “worldschooling” is, and how to plan education activities on the road (27:00); how parents can learn alongside their kids on the road, and how to deal with challenges like homesickness and culture shock (39:30); the task of returning home after a long journey, and how travel makes us better parents (46:00). Julie Frieder is the coauthor (along with Angela Heisten and Annika Paradise) of Wonder Year: A Guide to Long-Term Family Travel and Worldschooling. Notable Links: The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Hydrogeology (geology focusing on groundwater) Temple Grandin (animal behaviorist) “Awe Is Good for Your Brain,” by Florence Williams (Outside article) WWOOF (World Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms) Unschooling (experiential learning method) HSLDA (homeschooling resource website) Worldschoolers (Facebook group) Lands of Lost Borders , by Kate Harris (book) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Look at any photo from a moment of supposed zeitgeist in American history, and it will be clear that not everyone in that moment represented the cutting-edge of culture.” –Rolf Potts In this essay episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about why he enjoys listening to Rob Harvilla’s podcast 60 Songs That Explain the ’90s at double-speed, but that he’s disappointed Rob has never alluded to Rolf’s own 1990s grunge band, Swizzlefish (1:45); Rolf describes his move from Kansas to the Pacific Northwest in the year 1990, at a very specific moment in America’s cultural zeitgeist (10:30); the origins of Swizzlefish, and how its formation with Rolf’s friends Ryan and Steve was compromised by the fact that Rolf and Steve were in no way musical virtuosos (18:30); the circumstances of the first Swizzlefish live show, and how it caused an immediate controversy on Rolf’s small Christian college campus (30:00); what Portland’s indie-rock scene was like in early 1993, and what kinds of bands Rolf and his friends saw there (35:00); how the second Swizzlefish concert resulted in the band getting banned from playing on its own college campus (42:00); Swizzlefish’s spring 1993 performance at Portland’s X-Ray Cafe, and how the middle-class normalcy of its fans evoked something true about grunge music (49:00); Rolf’s eventual move to Seattle to work as a landscaper, his experiences at a 1993 Nirvana show there, and the curiously enduring legacy of Swizzlefish more than 30 years later (57:30); and Rolf talks to music journalist Rob Harvilla about Rolf’s brief appearance in the 1992 horror movie Dr. Giggles, their respective experiences with 1990s music, and whether or not Kurt Cobain would have liked them (1:06:25). The 1993 Swizzlefish album Big Time Loser is available for streaming on Spotify, Apple Music, and YouTube Music. Rob Harvilla (@harvilla) is the creator of 60 Songs That Explain the ’90s, a book and a podcast that explore the pop culture of the decade through music. , Bands, musicians, and songs mentioned: “Love Buzz” (Shocking Blue song covered on Nirvana’s Bleach) Elliott Smith (singer-songwriter from Portland, Oregon) Heatmiser (Portland indie rock band) “Smells Like Teen Spirit” (Nirvana song) Jane’s Addiction (alternative rock band from LA) Mother Love Bone (Seattle rock band) Kurt Cobain (lead-singer of Nirvana) Jackyl (American hair-metal band) “Princess in a Cobweb” (song by Drunk at Abi’s) Sprinkler (Portland indie-rock band) “Should I Stay or Should I Go” (song by The Clash) Carrie Brownstein (musician and comedian) Bikini Kill (pioneering “riot grrrl” punk band) Big Daddy Meat Straw (Portland indie-rock band) “Smells Like Nirvana” (parody song by Weird Al Yankovic) “Holiday of Sparks” (song by Dimbulb) “Rock Collection” (song by Pond) Everclear (Portland rock band) Mia Zapata (Seattle punk singer murdered in 1993) “Scentless Apprentice” (1993 Nirvana song) Kim Deal (Ohio-born musician for The Pixies and The Breeders) Dookie (1994 Green Day album) 924 Gilman Street (all-ages punk-rock club in Berkeley) Rancid (Berkeley punk band) Avail (melodic hardcore punk band from Virginia) Other links: Malcolm McLaren (promoter and manager of the Sex Pistols) Hype! (1996 music documentary directed by Doug Pray) Twin Peaks (TV drama created by David Lynch) Grunge (alternative rock genre known as “Seattle sound”) George Fox College (pre-1996 name of George Fox University) Jumping freight trains in the Pacific NW (Deviate episode) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Brian Epstein (manager of The Beatles from 1962-1967) Sub Pop (Seattle-based indie-rock record label) X-Ray Cafe (1990s all-ages venue in Portland) Rap rock (hybrid music genre) Hardcore (punk rock subgenre) Portlandia (sketch-comedy TV show from the 2010s) This Present Darkness (Christian novel by Frank E. Peretti) Satanic ritual abuse (conspiracy theory and moral panic) Newberg (small Oregon college town) 1993 TIME Magazine grunge issue (featuring Eddie Vedder) Dr. Giggles (1992 horror movie) Singles (1992 Cameron Crowe movie)   The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber.  Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Look at any photo from a moment of supposed zeitgeist in American history, and it will be clear that not everyone in that moment represented the cutting-edge of culture.” –Rolf Potts In this essay episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about why he enjoys listening to Rob Harvilla’s podcast 60 Songs That Explain the ’90s at double-speed, but that he’s disappointed Rob has never alluded to Rolf’s own 1990s grunge band, Swizzlefish (1:45); Rolf describes his move from Kansas to the Pacific Northwest in the year 1990, at a very specific moment in America’s cultural zeitgeist (10:30); the origins of Swizzlefish, and how its formation with Rolf’s friends Ryan and Steve was compromised by the fact that Rolf and Steve were in no way musical virtuosos (18:30); the circumstances of the first Swizzlefish live show, and how it caused an immediate controversy on Rolf’s small Christian college campus (30:00); what Portland’s indie-rock scene was like in early 1993, and what kinds of bands Rolf and his friends saw there (35:00); how the second Swizzlefish concert resulted in the band getting banned from playing on its own college campus (42:00); Swizzlefish’s spring 1993 performance at Portland’s X-Ray Cafe, and how the middle-class normalcy of its fans evoked something true about grunge music (49:00); Rolf’s eventual move to Seattle to work as a landscaper, his experiences at a 1993 Nirvana show there, and the curiously enduring legacy of Swizzlefish more than 30 years later (57:30); and Rolf talks to music journalist Rob Harvilla about Rolf’s brief appearance in the 1992 horror movie Dr. Giggles, their respective experiences with 1990s music, and whether or not Kurt Cobain would have liked them (1:06:25). The 1993 Swizzlefish album Big Time Loser is available for streaming on Spotify, Apple Music, and YouTube Music. Rob Harvilla (@harvilla) is the creator of 60 Songs That Explain the ’90s, a book and a podcast that explore the pop culture of the decade through music. , Bands, musicians, and songs mentioned: “Love Buzz” (Shocking Blue song covered on Nirvana’s Bleach) Elliott Smith (singer-songwriter from Portland, Oregon) Heatmiser (Portland indie rock band) “Smells Like Teen Spirit” (Nirvana song) Jane’s Addiction (alternative rock band from LA) Mother Love Bone (Seattle rock band) Kurt Cobain (lead-singer of Nirvana) Jackyl (American hair-metal band) “Princess in a Cobweb” (song by Drunk at Abi’s) Sprinkler (Portland indie-rock band) “Should I Stay or Should I Go” (song by The Clash) Carrie Brownstein (musician and comedian) Bikini Kill (pioneering “riot grrrl” punk band) Big Daddy Meat Straw (Portland indie-rock band) “Smells Like Nirvana” (parody song by Weird Al Yankovic) “Holiday of Sparks” (song by Dimbulb) “Rock Collection” (song by Pond) Everclear (Portland rock band) Mia Zapata (Seattle punk singer murdered in 1993) “Scentless Apprentice” (1993 Nirvana song) Kim Deal (Ohio-born musician for The Pixies and The Breeders) Dookie (1994 Green Day album) 924 Gilman Street (all-ages punk-rock club in Berkeley) Rancid (Berkeley punk band) Avail (melodic hardcore punk band from Virginia) Other links: Malcolm McLaren (promoter and manager of the Sex Pistols) Hype! (1996 music documentary directed by Doug Pray) Twin Peaks (TV drama created by David Lynch) Grunge (alternative rock genre known as “Seattle sound”) George Fox College (pre-1996 name of George Fox University) Jumping freight trains in the Pacific NW (Deviate episode) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Brian Epstein (manager of The Beatles from 1962-1967) Sub Pop (Seattle-based indie-rock record label) X-Ray Cafe (1990s all-ages venue in Portland) Rap rock (hybrid music genre) Hardcore (punk rock subgenre) Portlandia (sketch-comedy TV show from the 2010s) This Present Darkness (Christian novel by Frank E. Peretti) Satanic ritual abuse (conspiracy theory and moral panic) Newberg (small Oregon college town) 1993 TIME Magazine grunge issue (featuring Eddie Vedder) Dr. Giggles (1992 horror movie) Singles (1992 Cameron Crowe movie)   The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber.  Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Something about the motion of walking is conducive to generating both ideas and conversation. You can empty your mind and open your mind at the same time.” —Kevin Kelly In this episode of Deviate, Rolf reports from a “Walk and Talk” across northern Thailand. Interviewees and conversation topics are listed by time-code below. Participant write-ups about (or alluding to) the 2023 Thailand Walk and Talk include: The Walk and Talk: Everything We Know, by Craig Mod Walk and Talk: Everything We Know (PDF document), by Kevin Kelly Walking the Heck out of Thailand, by Craig Mod Walk and Talk, by Derek Sivers Expanding Home, by Liz Danzico Where Do You Call Home?, by Jason Kottke 2023: Walking, by Dan Wang Why Not Pay Teachers $100,000 a Year?, by Daniel Pink Kevin Kelly (4:00-15:00) Kevin Kelly (@kevin2kelly) is a photographer, writer, and futurist, with much of his work centering on Asian and digital culture. His newest book is Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I'd Known Earlier. Travel can be a way to see the future (Deviate episode) Kevin Kelly on the lost world of 1970s Asia (Deviate episode) Wired (technology magazine) The Cotswolds (region in central Southwest England) Liz Danzico (15:00-27:45) Liz Danzico is VP of Design at Microsoft, and the Founding Chair of the MFA Interaction Design Program at the School of Visual Arts. Long-distance hiking at home (Deviate episode) The Death and Life of Great American Cities, by Jane Jacobs (book) Lets Drift (Kenyan hiking club) Hoka (brand of walking shoes) Silvia Lindtner (27:45-46:00) Silvia Lindtner is a writer, ethnographer, and Associate Professor at the University of Michigan. Her book Prototype Nation: China and the Contested Promise of Innovation was published by Princeton University Press in 2020. Seeking rural places (Deviate episode) Jiangxi (Chinese province) Guangdong (Chinese province) Yunnan (Chinese province) Salzburg (city in Austria) The Vulnerable Observer, by Ruth Behar (book) Anna Greenspan (media professor) Communitas (unstructured community of equals) Daniel Pink (46:00-52:00) Daniel Pink is a best-selling author of books on work, business, and life. His “Why Not?” project in collaboration with the Washington Post to aims to jolt America's imagination about possibilities. When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing, by Daniel Pink (book) Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us, by Daniel Pink (book) The Power of Regret, by Daniel Pink (book) Craig Mod (52:00-69:00) Craig Mod is an author and photographer who has written and photographed about his walks across Japan, his love of pizza toast, and his life in Japan. Walk Japan (tour company) Rich Roll (ultra-endurance athlete) The Glorious Boredom of My Walk in Japan, by Craig Mod (essay) Kissa by Kissa, by Craig Mod (book) Things Become Other Things, by Craid Mod (book) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Something about the motion of walking is conducive to generating both ideas and conversation. You can empty your mind and open your mind at the same time.” —Kevin Kelly In this episode of Deviate, Rolf reports from a “Walk and Talk” across northern Thailand. Interviewees and conversation topics are listed by time-code below. Participant write-ups about (or alluding to) the 2023 Thailand Walk and Talk include: The Walk and Talk: Everything We Know, by Craig Mod Walk and Talk: Everything We Know (PDF document), by Kevin Kelly Walking the Heck out of Thailand, by Craig Mod Walk and Talk, by Derek Sivers Expanding Home, by Liz Danzico Where Do You Call Home?, by Jason Kottke 2023: Walking, by Dan Wang Why Not Pay Teachers $100,000 a Year?, by Daniel Pink Kevin Kelly (4:00-15:00) Kevin Kelly (@kevin2kelly) is a photographer, writer, and futurist, with much of his work centering on Asian and digital culture. His newest book is Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I'd Known Earlier. Travel can be a way to see the future (Deviate episode) Kevin Kelly on the lost world of 1970s Asia (Deviate episode) Wired (technology magazine) The Cotswolds (region in central Southwest England) Liz Danzico (15:00-27:45) Liz Danzico is VP of Design at Microsoft, and the Founding Chair of the MFA Interaction Design Program at the School of Visual Arts. Long-distance hiking at home (Deviate episode) The Death and Life of Great American Cities, by Jane Jacobs (book) Lets Drift (Kenyan hiking club) Hoka (brand of walking shoes) Silvia Lindtner (27:45-46:00) Silvia Lindtner is a writer, ethnographer, and Associate Professor at the University of Michigan. Her book Prototype Nation: China and the Contested Promise of Innovation was published by Princeton University Press in 2020. Seeking rural places (Deviate episode) Jiangxi (Chinese province) Guangdong (Chinese province) Yunnan (Chinese province) Salzburg (city in Austria) The Vulnerable Observer, by Ruth Behar (book) Anna Greenspan (media professor) Communitas (unstructured community of equals) Daniel Pink (46:00-52:00) Daniel Pink is a best-selling author of books on work, business, and life. His “Why Not?” project in collaboration with the Washington Post to aims to jolt America's imagination about possibilities. When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing, by Daniel Pink (book) Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us, by Daniel Pink (book) The Power of Regret, by Daniel Pink (book) Craig Mod (52:00-69:00) Craig Mod is an author and photographer who has written and photographed about his walks across Japan, his love of pizza toast, and his life in Japan. Walk Japan (tour company) Rich Roll (ultra-endurance athlete) The Glorious Boredom of My Walk in Japan, by Craig Mod (essay) Kissa by Kissa, by Craig Mod (book) Things Become Other Things, by Craid Mod (book) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We ‘massage’ the truth to make it fit the narrative we need it to fit in our lives.”  –Andrew McCarthy In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about how Andrew got started in travel writing, and how writing himself on the page helped him see himself in the world (2:30); when he does and doesn’t conflate certain details in the interest of a good story, and how he balances the “micro” and the “macro” elements of a travel story (12:30); how he decides who to write about, among the many people he meets on the road, which details do and don’t drive the narrative forward, and what it’s like to meet travelers who recognize him from his acting days (23:30); how Andrew structures his travel stories, and what travel storytelling in common with his work as a TV director (31:00); how he balances his writing and non-writing work in life, and how he mixes personal details with place details in his travel writing (38:00); and how memory can be fallible, and how to best write about family members (47:00). Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy) is an actor, television director and writer of such books as The Longest Way Home and Brat. His newest book is Walking with Sam: A Father, a Son, and Five Hundred Miles Across Spain. Notable Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s travel memoir classes) Andrew McCarthy on travel (Deviate episode) Andrew McCarthy Proust questionnaire (Deviate episode) Paul Theroux (travel writer and novelist) “Chasing the Black Pearl,” by Andrew McCarthy (Tahiti article) Gustav Mahler (classical composer) Don George (travel writer and editor) The Snow Leopard, by Peter Matthiessen (book) “A Slice of Paradise,” by Andrew McCarthy (Hawaii article) “A Slice of Ireland,” by Andrew McCarthy (Ireland article) “Steeped in Darjeeling,” by Andrew McCarthy (India article) Osprey (species of bird) Finisterre (peninsula in Spain) Communitas (unstructured community of equals) A Short History of Nearly Everything, by Bill Bryson (book) Less than Zero (1987 film starring Andrew McCarthy) Nut graph (journalism term) Joan Didion (American writer) Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (book) Claude Chabrol (French film director) Henry Miller (American novelist) Alison Steele (New York DJ known as “The Nightbird”) Vin Scelsa (broadcaster) Oliver Sacks (British neurologist and writer) Rob Lowe (American “Brat Pack” actor) “Courting Vienna,” by Andrew McCarthy (Austria article) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We ‘massage’ the truth to make it fit the narrative we need it to fit in our lives.”  –Andrew McCarthy In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about how Andrew got started in travel writing, and how writing himself on the page helped him see himself in the world (2:30); when he does and doesn’t conflate certain details in the interest of a good story, and how he balances the “micro” and the “macro” elements of a travel story (12:30); how he decides who to write about, among the many people he meets on the road, which details do and don’t drive the narrative forward, and what it’s like to meet travelers who recognize him from his acting days (23:30); how Andrew structures his travel stories, and what travel storytelling in common with his work as a TV director (31:00); how he balances his writing and non-writing work in life, and how he mixes personal details with place details in his travel writing (38:00); and how memory can be fallible, and how to best write about family members (47:00). Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy) is an actor, television director and writer of such books as The Longest Way Home and Brat. His newest book is Walking with Sam: A Father, a Son, and Five Hundred Miles Across Spain. Notable Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s travel memoir classes) Andrew McCarthy on travel (Deviate episode) Andrew McCarthy Proust questionnaire (Deviate episode) Paul Theroux (travel writer and novelist) “Chasing the Black Pearl,” by Andrew McCarthy (Tahiti article) Gustav Mahler (classical composer) Don George (travel writer and editor) The Snow Leopard, by Peter Matthiessen (book) “A Slice of Paradise,” by Andrew McCarthy (Hawaii article) “A Slice of Ireland,” by Andrew McCarthy (Ireland article) “Steeped in Darjeeling,” by Andrew McCarthy (India article) Osprey (species of bird) Finisterre (peninsula in Spain) Communitas (unstructured community of equals) A Short History of Nearly Everything, by Bill Bryson (book) Less than Zero (1987 film starring Andrew McCarthy) Nut graph (journalism term) Joan Didion (American writer) Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (book) Claude Chabrol (French film director) Henry Miller (American novelist) Alison Steele (New York DJ known as “The Nightbird”) Vin Scelsa (broadcaster) Oliver Sacks (British neurologist and writer) Rob Lowe (American “Brat Pack” actor) “Courting Vienna,” by Andrew McCarthy (Austria article) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Unless we explore our neighborhood, we can't imagine what might be right under our noses, nor be able to celebrate it, mourn its demise, or take action.” –Alastair Humphreys In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Alastair Humphreys discuss the concept of his new book Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wilderness (1:30); what Alastair found on his close-to-home adventures in England (7:00); the surprises he found in industrial and post-industrial environments (13:00); how he learned to pay better attention to the natural environment in the areas he explored (19:30); “rights of access,” and how it affects hiking in Europe; and the idea of the “big here” versus the “small here” (25:00); how Alastair sought to embrace “stillness” during his experiment (33:30); how the changing of the seasons affected his experience of the local environments (40:30); and the role that imagination plays in having adventures close to home (48:00). Alastair Humphreys (@Al_Humphreys) is an English adventurer, author and motivational speaker. He is responsible for the rise of the idea of the microadventure – short, local, accessible adventures. His newest book, out this year, is Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wildness. Notable Links: Microadventure (local travel initiative) Industrial farming (agriculture practice) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) Rewilding (conservation biology) Korean DMZ (rewilded demilitarized zone) Seek (nature identification app) Merlin Bird ID (birdsong identification app) On Looking, by Alexandra Horowitz (book) Henry David Thoreau (naturalist and essayist) Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, by Annie Dillard (book) Mary Oliver (naturalist and poet) Right of way (public right to hike on private land) A Journey Around My Room, by Xavier de Maistre (book) Traveling in Place, by Bernd Stiegler (book) An Attempt at Exhausting a Place in Paris, by Georges Perec (book) Dustsceawung (Old English term for “contemplating dust”) Black Death (14th century pandemic) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don't host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.