Podcasts about brand gap

Marty Neumeier is as written many books on design and brand as one of the foremost thinkers on how to build a brand. His books include, The Brand Gap, Zag, The Designful Company, The 46 Rules of Genius and more. Do you have a brand or a logo? Listen to this discussion between host Bryan Elliott and Marty. Special Thanks to our Sponsor WHOOP!Use my special link and get a great deal on a new WHOOP 4.0.WEAR IT ANY-WEARComfortable enough to wear non-stop thanks to new, durable SuperKnit bands, but flexibly designed to be worn off your wrist in new WHOOP Body apparel.WAKE UP AT THE OPTIMAL TIMESet a haptic alarm that gently vibrates to wake you at the optimal time based on your sleep needs and cycles.MONITOR YOUR HEALTHA robust sensor suite allows you to monitor your key vital signs: Blood oxygen levels, skin temperature readings, and heart rate metrics.GET MORE ACCURATE DATA5 LEDs and 4 photodiodes capture your data more often than most wearables, providing best-in-class accuracy validated in lab studies and with third-party testing.Special Thanks to our Sponsor Inside Tracker!It's been about 7 years but feels like yesterday when I think about the time I was really struggling with health. All of a sudden I was getting serious headaches and didn't know why…My friend Rob Wolff who wrote the book Wired to Eat turned me on to InsideTracker but to be honest I didn't follow thru and spent the next 4 years trying to figure things out on my own by seeing over a dozen doctors and specialists. I probably wasted at least $20,000 in time and medical expenses with nothing to show for it. Earlier this year another friend suggested InsideTracker again and I signed up. It was so easy. A specialist came to my house to took my blood for a blood panel test that measured almost 50 health markers. About a week later I had a full report across all of the important categories.How much would you pay to have a roadmap to feeling your best? Well, promise InsiderTracker costs a lot less and I guarantee it will be one of the best investments you make for yourself. With annual fees starting at $150 this is a no-brainer. Just go to InsideTracker.com and give it a try.Support the show

Text us your questions, and we'll address them in the show!In this episode of Earning by Design, I explore a critical distinction that can elevate your work as a designer: the difference between brand identity and brand strategy. While both are essential to building a strong brand, they serve distinct roles, and understanding each can make you a more valuable partner to your clients.Key takeaways include:Brand Identity Essentials: Learn the key elements of a brand identity and why it's much more than just a logo—spanning color choices, typography, imagery, and voice to create a cohesive visual system.Understanding Brand Strategy: Discover what goes into a brand strategy, including target audience, purpose, positioning, and messaging. Strategy defines a brand's goals and helps direct how a brand communicates and grows over time.Aligning Identity with Strategy: Why aligning your design choices with the brand's strategic goals and purpose ensures your work resonates with the right audience and adds real value.Bridging the Gap for Success: Practical tips for integrating strategic insights into your design process and elevating your client relationships by positioning yourself as a brand partner.YouTube video mentioned Brand Identity vs. Brand Strategy: https://youtu.be/CUuFb0B15os?si=qDZw4q1eeUid7TYCMarty Neumeier Branding book "The Brand Gap": https://a.co/d/fD4VqCAThis episode is all about empowering you to go beyond aesthetics and design with purpose, creating brand identities that align with a clear strategy. For more resources to help you build a successful design business, visit 4thecreatives.com.CONNECT WITH ME! Website: https://4thecreatives.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/4thecreatives Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/4thecreatives/

Women have long been conditioned to hide their potential and not stand out, stifling countless voices and hindering progress! Join Deborah as she engages in a compelling conversation with Orly Zeewy about empowering women to light up the world. Women should be encouraged to embrace their strengths, step into their power, and assert their presence in all spheres of life! Here are the things to expect in the episode:Orly's personal experiences of overcoming self-doubt.The shift towards embracing feminine energy in leadership and the collaborative nature of women-owned businesses.Why is it important for women to support each other in various aspects of life?The impact of investing in women's education and businesses.And much more! About Orly:Orly Zeewy has one superpower, she makes fuzzy clear. She turns generic messaging into clear marketing messages that help founders and solopreneurs cut through the noise so they can attract their ideal clients and scale fast. Orly has been featured in Medium, and her articles have been published in national publications such as The Marketing Journal, Smart Hustle, and Lioness Magazine. Her book, Ready, Launch, Brand: The Lean Marketing Guide for Startups, was published by Routledge in May 2021 and was the  #1 new business book on Amazon in April 2021. Connect with Orly Zeewy!Website: https://zeewybrands.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/orlyzeewy/Orly's book, Ready, Launch, Brand: The Lean Marketing Guide for Startups: https://bit.ly/readylaunchbrandFree Personal Branding Tips: https://bit.ly/3RlE2cj Book recommendations:The Brand Gap by Marty NeumeierZag: The #1 Strategy of High-Performance Brands by Marty Neumeier  Connect with Deborah Kevin:Website: www.deborahkevin.comInstagram: www.instagram.com/debbykevinwriterLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deborah-kevin/Book Recommendations: https://bookshop.org/shop/storytellher Check out Highlander Press:Website: www.highlanderpressbooks.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@highlanderpressInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/highlanderpressFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/highlanderpress

Minter Dialogue with Marty Neumeier To start off this new year, and just before I get back into the swing of brand new episodes for 2024, I wanted to re-release this wonderful conversation with Marty Neumeier (MDE314). Where so many people are needing to have a sense of belonging and find meaningfulness, working for a meaningful brand is one way to find fulfilment. Marty is a world recognised expert on branding, best-selling author of books such as The Brand Gap, The Brand Flip and MetaSkills. At the time of recording this interview, he had recently published a ‘business thriller' called, "Scramble, How agile strategy can build epic brands in record time." He's also director and CEO of the Liquid branding agency. In this conversation with Marty, we talked about the importance of having a designer mindset in business and the challenge of building a superior brand in today's tech-infused world. If you've got comments or questions you'd like to see answered, send your email or audio file to nminterdial@gmail.com; or you can find the show notes and comment on minterdial.com. If you liked the podcast, please take a moment to go over to Apple Podcasts or your favourite podcast channel, to rate/review the show. Otherwise, you can find me @mdial on Twitter.

We discuss the relationship between storytelling and marketing.The Role of Storytelling in SalonsWe highlight the importance of stories in marketing.Stories are sticky. People remember stories.A well-crafted narrative can set a salon apart.Todd shares some thoughts about Nike.A quote from "The Brand Gap:"“When enough individuals arrive at the same gut feeling,” he writes, “a company can be said to have a brand. In other words, a brand is not what you say it is. It's what they say it is.” Your Salon's NarrativeExplore the process of crafting a salon's narrative, including defining core values, mission, and brand identity.Example: One of your core values is perseverance; that's great! What have you persevered? What's the story that you can connect with the word to make it an emotion for your client?Your Salon's Origin StoryYour origin story can set the stage for clients to begin engaging and trusting your business.Client Stories and TestimonialsMaking your clients "famous" is a more impactful strategy than trying to make yourself famous. Tell the stories of happy clients.Visual storytellingWhat powerful visuals do you have or can you create that express your story?Do you do a ton of education at your salon?Then, you should be creating content that tells that story. Video a class and use clips; you don't have to use the sound; put something else over it.Building Emotional ConnectionsStorytelling can build emotional connections with clients, fostering trust and loyalty.Example: Share some client transformations but include the story and the client's why if appropriate.Clients who feel emotionally connected are likelier to engage with the salon through repeat visits, referrals, and active participation in loyalty programs and events.Authenticity and ConsistencyKeep things the same. Tell the same stories over and over again. A common mistake we've seen in marketing is when people try to recreate the wheel constantly. Just stick to your target audience and your values.Evolving You don't want to rewrite your mission statement yearly, but growth brings change.If you'd like to learn more about us and how we can help your business CLICK HERE.StoryBrandLinks and Stuff:Our (weekly) Email ListFind more of our things:InstagramHello Hair Pro Website

“The need for a good brand name originates with customers, and customers will always want convenient ways of identifying, remembering, discussing, and comparing brands. The right name can be a brand's most valuable asset, driving differentiation and speeding acceptance.”   The Brand Gap"  ~ Marty NeuemierSupport the showhttps://www.youtube.com/@lifeonpodcast/videos

Roman Zelenka interviews Marty Neumeier, sought-after teacher, speaker, and best-selling author, who worked with top companies such as Apple, HP, Adobe, and Google. His book The Brand Gap is considered to be a foundational text for modern brand building. Get specific tips on how to become a brand genius and succeed in your business.  More episodes:  https://romanzelenkapodcast.libsyn.com/  Inspiration from Marty: www.martyneumeier.comwww.levelc.org Inspiration from Roman: www.romanzelenka.com www.wingman.cz

In this episode, I have Marty Neumeier and Andy Starr as guests. We talk about the book THE BRAND GAP, branding, startups and Steve Jobs. Enjoy! Marty Neumeier: LinkedIn Andy Starr: LinkedIn Website: Level C Website: Marty Neumeier Book: THE BRAND GAP   Mehr Marken Insights?    Link: Zu den Marken Insights   Du hast Themenvorschläge? Der Podcast ist für euch. Unser Ziel ist, die Episoden so zu gestalten, dass sie euch einen Mehrwert bieten.    Link: Schlage uns ein Thema vor   Podcast Website Link: Zur Website

Connecting the digital experience and brand experience to build long-term customers and fans, by embracing effective brand moments.   Description: Best practices of digital experience revolve around identifying points of friction and shaving them down, optimizing for an efficient buying experience for customers, and offering nothing that might distract them. The most interesting companies understand that some decisions and key interactions can be better leveraged to be memorable, and remarkable and build long-term relationships with their specific target customers. The best-loved brands match their digital and IRL experiences, using strong brands as connective tissue. Using real-world examples, Adam demonstrates how certain brands win in their spaces by choosing brand over efficiency.   Three things listeners will learn:  Rethink digital experience through the brand lens Understand how to determine what customers really want Recognize the key elements of their brand experienceCheck out upcoming DigiMarCon Digital Marketing Conferences at https://digimarcon.com/events

THE BRAND GAP is the first book to present a unified theory of brand-building. Whereas most books on branding are weighted toward either a strategic or creative approach, this book shows how both ways of thinking can unite to produce a “charismatic brand”—a brand that customers feel is essential to their lives. In an entertaining two-hour read you'll learn: • the new definition of brand • the five essential disciplines of brand-building • how branding is changing the dynamics of competition • the three most powerful questions to ask about any brand • why collaboration is the key to brand-building • how design determines a customer's experience • how to test brand concepts quickly and cheaply • the importance of managing brands from the inside • 220-word brand glossary From the back cover: Not since McLuhan's THE MEDIUM IS THE MESSAGE has a book compressed so many ideas into so few pages. Using the visual language of the boardroom, Neumeier presents the first unified theory of branding—a set of five disciplines to help companies bridge the gap between brand strategy and customer experience. Those with a grasp of branding will be inspired by the new perspectives they find here, and those who would like to understand it better will suddenly “get it.” This deceptively simple book offers everyone in the company access to “the most powerful business tool since the spreadsheet.”

È il 1971, Bill Backer intuisce che la Coca-Cola è “qualcosa di più” che una bevanda e crea uno degli spot più famosi di sempre, uno spot sulla pace universale dove nessuno beve Coca-Cola. È uno dei primi esempi di lavoro sul brand, quando la parola “brand” non aveva ancora il significato che ha oggi. E allora perché ci sono voluti decenni per definire che cos'è un brand? E perché ancora oggi non è del tutto chiaro? La risposta è in un'altra importante cosa accaduta nel 1971. Ospite della puntata: Gaetano Grizzanti, fondatore di Univisual e autore di Brand identikit. Bibliografia - Gaetano Grizzanti, Brand identikit. Trasformare un marchio in una marca, Fausto Lupetti Editore. - Gaetano Grizzanti ha anche scritto Campo grafico 1933/1939. Nasce il visual design. Ediz. italiana e inglese, AIAP, e ha curato A brand is not a logo, AIAP. - Sulla nascita dello spot di Coca-Cola del 1971, cfr. https://www.coca-colaitalia.it/il-nostro-mondo/pubblicita/id-like-to-buy-the-world-a-coke e https://www.coca-colacompany.com/company/history/creating-id-like-to-buy-the-world-a-coke - Sul confronto tra lo spot di Coca-Cola del 1971 e quello di Pepsi del 2018, cfr. Samuel Herrmann, Hilltops and Marches: A Cultural and Semiotic Analysis of Pepsi and Coca-Cola Advertising Strategies, 2018 - I tre articoli di Jack Trout e Al Ries sul positioning apparsi su Advertising Age nel 1972 sono consultabili su http://www.ries.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Positioning-Articles002.pdf - La definizione di brand di Marty Neumeier è tratta da The Brand Gap, New Riders Pub - Le altre definizioni sono tratte da Brand Thinking and Other Noble Pursuits, a cura di Debbie Millman, Allworth Press Disclaimer: con alcuni dei siti linkati l'autore ha un'affiliazione e ottiene una piccola quota dei ricavi, senza variazioni dei prezzi al pubblico. La prossima puntata esce venerdì 1 luglio: Lezioni dalla Rivoluzione creativa, con Giueseppe Mazza, direttore creativo e fondatore dell'agenzia Tita.

While private label products were able to gain share during the Great Recession, they have yet to make notable gains against national brands in our current period of high inflation. Mary Ellen Lynch, principal, Center Store Solutions at IRI, discusses some strategies retailers should employ to build the value proposition of their private brand offerings. 

A performing brand is much more than just a logo.   (Recorded Live on Clubhouse September 24, 2021)  In this session, we discuss the difference between building a business and building a brand. We'll discuss the tools you need to make your brand stand out while building a loyal customer base. Marketing methods that work– finding your brand's message and identifying goals, and how to present that to the right prospects to convert them to loyal customers.  Moderators: Colin C. Campbell, Michele Van Tilborg, Olivia Valdes Mentioned Reading Material from the Session: Building a StoryBrand by Donald Miller, The Brand Gap by Marty Neumeier Sign up to our email and never miss an update on our special events, guest speakers, and more: https://startup.club/

In this episode of the brand master podcast, I'm speaking with the best-selling author of The Brand Gap, the Brand Flip, zag, scramble, and Meta-skills, Mr. Marty Neumeier about the future of branding and brand strategy. 

Branding/The 5 Disciples …also:Hiking/Sociology/McDonalds/Trucks/Coffee Mugs/Mandalorian/Construction/Power Tools/Batteries/Milwaukee/DeWalt

The Brand Gap Una marca no es solo un logo. Una marca no es una identidad corporativa. Una marca no es un producto. Una marca no es lo que la empresa dice que es, es lo que el consumidor dice que es. Una marca es el sentimiento que genera en una persona un producto, un servicio o una empresa. Es un sentimiento! Te recomendaría leerlo? Este libro es un clásico en “branding - generación de marca” y Marty Neumeier es uno de los grandes exponentes del tema. Como buen marketero, el libro contiene muchas imágenes que ayudan a entender los conceptos del libro. Al ser un libro de hace unos años, muchos ejemplos son “pre-tech” con un enfoque en productos de consumo. Es un libro con un gran valor, sobre todo si trabajas o estas relacionado a productos de consumo, si eres parte de un equipo de marketing o si quieres cambiar o crear una percepción de marca (personal, o de tu empresa, producto + servicio). Contiene ejemplos muy prácticos y hace buenos cuestionamientos que seguro te servirán para mejorar tu marca. Marty Neumeier es autor y conferencista, especializado en Branding, diseño, innovación y creatividad. Ha trabajado con empresas como Apple, HP y Microsoft. Ha escrito 8 libros sobre temas relacionados a Branding y se considero una de las voces más relevantes en la industria. Patrocinadores: AppSumo - herramientas para para mejorar la operacion de un negocio con soluciones de software Nootrox - nootrópicos y suplementos para darle más energía a tu vida.

Not content to leave a pile of brand myths unkicked in the middle of the road, Andy Starr, Managing Partner of Level C, and Brian Sooy, Brand Strategist and Founder of Aespire Brands ask (and answer) questions about brand and branding.People don't understand why differentiation matters. What's the value? Why should someone who works in brand care about the brand being different? “What are the three questions every brand and business owner should ask?How do you know when an idea is innovative?This episode of the Everybody Brands podcast is Part Two of an extended conversation with Andy Starr, Managing Partner of Level C.Andy Starr is the managing partner of Level C, an education program teaching principles of modern brand to business professionals.  Andy co-founded Level C and with international brand expert and author Marty Neumeier.Andy calls himself a "provocateur-for-hire" at the intersection of education, business, and brand. He helps clients outmaneuver competition and conditions in their markets, and make marketing|advertising|PR|content work better, land stronger, and drive real results. Because he's a provocateur, you can understand why I invited Andy for a conversation about brand and business on the Everybody Brands podcast.  We mention Dune, Marty Neumeier, and make a connection between the practice of brandind and music that you don't want to miss.Connect with Andy Starr atLevelC.orgAndy Starr on LinkedInBrian Sooy is the only dual-certified Level C Brand Strategist and StoryBrand Guide. He is the author of multiple books on brand, communications, and culture, and the agency principal of the Aespire Brands Agency.

What is brand? What is branding? Why does it matter?This episode of the Everybody Brands podcast is Part One of an extended conversation with Andy Starr, Managing Partner of Level C.“We believe that the brand is defined by and owned by you. Branding is what we do what I as the owner of the business, it's what I do to influence you.”Andy Starr is the managing partner of Level C, an education program teaching principles of modern brand to business professionals.  Andy co-founded Level C and with international brand expert and author Marty Neumeier.Andy calls himself a "provocateur-for-hire" at the intersection of education, business, and brand. He helps clients outmaneuver competition and conditions in their markets, and make marketing|advertising|PR|content work better, land stronger, and drive real results. Because he's a provocateur, you can understand why I invited Andy for a conversation about brand and business on the Everybody Brands podcast.LevelC.orgAndy Starr on LinkedInBrian Sooy is the only dual-certified Level C Brand Strategist and StoryBrand Guide. He is the author of multiple books on brand, communications, and culture, and the agency principal of the Aespire Brands Agency.

Dengan Branding, kita tahu apa yang membedakan kita dengan orang lain

Marty Neumeier is a best-selling author and speaker who writes on topics of brand and design. Today Marty spends most of his time lecturing all over the globe about the role of creativity and innovation in the creation of relevant and meaningful brand experiences.  Marty has written several best-selling books including The Brand Gap which outlines how to bridge the distance between business strategy and design; ZAG which introduces “onliness” as the true test of a brand strategy; and The Designful Company which offers leaders a blueprint for building a culture of innovation through design thinking. ZAG was named one the “100 Best Business Books of All Time.” In 2013, Marty published Metaskills: Five Talents for the Robotic Age, a deep dive into the future of workplace creativity. He then wrote The 46 Rules of Genius as a “quickstart guide” to “Metaskills.” His latest book The Brand Flip is the long-awaited sequel to The Brand Gap. It offers a simple formula for addressing the changes brought by social media and the rising power of customers. Marty was also commissioned by Google Brand Lab to write the Dictionary of Brand, a relational glossary containing 500 interconnected terms in brand strategy, advertising, design, innovation and management. The Dictionary of Brand is the first step in creating a “linguistic foundation” -- a set of terms that allow specialists from different disciplines to work together in a larger community of practice. When Marty is not lecturing or writing, he is facilitating inspirational workshops or providing consulting services to companies the likes of Apple, Google, Microsoft, Skype, Twitter and Patagonia. In this Podcast, Allan and Marty talk about the difference between brand and personality, which skills make up the best leader, the importance of empathy and the power of a well-written email. For more show notes, visit www.allanmckay.com/292/.

Stephanie Owens is a Certified Brand Strategist and the founder of Gold Sheep Design, a collaborative branding and design studio based in Southern California that helps musicians and instrument makers grow crowds of super fans by cranking their brands to 11.In part one of this two-part episode, we talk about how businesses in the music world can crank their brand to 11.She's a self-described Introverted rocker helping musicians grow crowds of super fans by cranking their brands to 11.Get to know Stephanie atGold Sheep Designon LinkedInon InstagramBuild a brand that inspires your fans to listen, trust, and buy with Certified Brand Specialist and StoryBrand Certified Guide Brian Sooy from Aespire, the brand agency that helps people implement the StoryBrand framework and build beloved brands that engage customers, reduce sales costs, and grow revenue.

Branding is not just about what makes you unique but about how you portray that to the world. Your personal brand is the sum of how people perceive you, and understanding how to influence these perceptions is key to branding success. As the Founder and CEO of InTandem Marketing, Kyle Lindenboom helps businesses drill down on their brands by narrowing the gap between how they want to be perceived and how they present themselves. Kyle joins us today on the show to explore how to assess a personal brand and craft a vision for a desired future brand to help listeners identify potential gaps and areas for improvement. We start our conversation by hearing more from Kyle about what exactly a brand is and why it's critical for success. From there, we dive into the idea of personal brands, getting into some of the ways we can align our branding with our goals, and talking about how we get perceived through the way we dress, respond to messages, and more. We discuss the value of authenticity, awareness, and intentionality in building a brand, the centrality of expectations in brand-building, and a whole lot more on today's show, so be sure to tune in!Key Points From This Episode:Introducing Kyle and the brand-building services he offers through InTandem Marketing.What a brand is and the importance of understanding its components for building one.Connecting branding to the personal: What is a personal brand, and how is it communicated?The idea that a personal brand is the sum of all perceptions about somebody based on how they portray themselves.The value of being intentional about personal branding but staying authentic as well.How to be more aware of how your representation of yourself influences perceptions about you.Kyle's method of taking clients through the process of aligning their branding with their goals through a gap analysis.How valuable it is to know your target audience when building your brand.How your branding will create expectations about you; how to set expectations correctly.Kyle's thoughts on a branding exercise involving iteratively whittling down a list of brand goals.The idea that strong brands are focused and not concerned with pleasing everybody.Kyle Lindenboom on LinkedInKyle Lindenboom EmailInTandem MarketingAlex Drost LinkedInBranch Out Podcast LinkedInConnection Builders LinkedInHave thoughts or comments? We want to hear from you. growth@connection.builders

Filling the Brand Gap is an audible style blog from Content Matterz.  Filling the Brand Gap is an article to get you thinking about your brand and how you can start building a brand for yourself. To read the written style of this blog, you can do so here.  And keep in mind, you have… The post Filling the Brand Gap – An Audible Blog appeared first on KazCM.

BGBS 054: Andy Starr | Level C | Different Is So ImportantAndy Starr is a provocateur in the niche landscape where education, business, and brand co-exist. He sees the value in being different and finds comfort in creating change. Even as a kid, he liked being the black sheep. He didn't identify with the lead singer in a band or the striker making goals in soccer, he always wanted to be the drummer in the back or the goalie with a different uniform. With 17+ years of agency experience, Andy continues to move the needle forward with co-founder/brand master Marty Neumeier, as they educate leaders in the evolution of brand within business through their platform, Level C. You'll learn that Andy believes in more than just using strategy to sell. He believes in people, storytelling, and provoking emotion. Andy believes that provocation can be good and different can be important, inspiring us to ask ourselves how can we each embrace our differences to provide value to the world. In this episode, you'll learn…Andy considers himself to be a provocateur in the professional education space. To him, this means being different for the sake of being valuable. In the professional education realm, what needs to change is access, quality of content, relevance of content, and applicability of concepts. Andy and Marty Neumeier care about progressing professional education through the lense of brand. On the higher academic level, much of what is studied focuses on theory. The purpose of this is to teach you to think critically and prepare you for a world that is constantly evolving. With this in mind, analytic thought will always be relevant. Andy grew up in a conservative, change-resistant part of the world. Growing up, he always wanted to do the complete opposite of what was expected of him. When he learned the payoff of being different it transformed his whole world. Andy was always enraptured by the drums. He resonated with drummers the most but didn't begin playing himself until college. When he did, he expresses it as meeting himself for the first time. While in law school, Andy helped his girlfriend with her graphic design clients and found more interest in that than what he was studying. She introduced him to The Brand Gap and he fell in love with the book. Marty was a great influence to Andy, and he messaged him many times with his accomplishments to prove himself worthy of being mentored. When Andy first visited Marty's apartment, he found a highly used, beat-up version of The Brand Gap that he thought may have been a first edition. He later learned that it belonged to the one and only, Steve Jobs. Level C's purpose is to bring the role of brand to the C suite so that business is done with the people in mind. By doing so, real change can happen within business, and in turn, the world. Brands do not control their audience, they influence them (and even that has a limit). A brand's stance will provide more context to where you stand in regards to their position, whether that is with or against them. ResourcesLinkedIn: Andy Starr Instagram: @the_andy_starr Level C Website: levelc.org Quotes[15:55] Different matters because we think that there's something in it for us. Whether it's noticing something different, or acting, feeling wanting to be different, there is a perceived payoff to that. When I realized that, when that was revealed to me and for me, my whole perspective on everything changed. [19:25] I actually started playing drums. That was something that I always wanted to do. Even as a little kid, I was always attracted not to the guitarist, or the lead singer, or the pianist, I was always attracted to the guy sitting in the back, because the guy sitting in the back was always the one that I felt in my chest, in my gut. [51:56] What we're trying to do with Level C is we're trying to put in, or depending on your perspective, restore the role of brand into the C suite. To restore the role of brand into a position of influence on the business side, a position of relevance to the business and the consumer side…to influence the way people think about this stuff. And we believe that when they think about it, when they learn, and they think, and they process, and then they practice, real change can happen. [53:01] We're not looking to change the world. We're looking to change a part of business because we do believe that if you change business enough, then the world can be changed. Podcast TranscriptAndy Starr 0:02 That romantic sense of the trajectory of my life or what I thought that trajectory needed to be, where it was always there, I couldn't shake it no matter how hard I tried, until I actually started playing drums. That was something that I always wanted to do. I always, you know, even as a little kid, I was always attracted not to the guitarist or the, the lead singer, or, you know, you know, the pianist, I was always attracted to the guy sitting in the back, because the guy sitting in the back was always the one that you felt, or the one that I felt in my chest in my gut, right. And the drummer always seemed like, like the black sheep. And I honestly couldn't necessarily tell you why that was, but it always was. Marc Gutman 0:54 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman. I'm Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Backstory, we are talking with Andy Starr, co founder and partner of the brand education company Level C. And while I have your ear, if you're listening, I'm assuming you like our show. And if that premise holds true, then please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Better yet, please recommend this show to at least one friend you think will like it. If this is your first time listening, please consider subscribing. It is your subscriptions that make this show possible. Alright, enough of that stuff. Let's get back to the show. Andy Starr's bio describes him as a provocateur for hire at the intersection of education, business and brand. And while that is a super cool bio, I think he's so much more than that. Yes, he's a provocateur. But he's also a thought leader, an empath, an educator, an entrepreneur, a brand nerd, a people person, the partner to branding legend, an author, Marty Neumeier. I hope I can call him a friend and he calls me the same. But if you ask Andy who he is, he'll probably say none of all that and simply tell you, he's a musician. With 17 plus years of agency and in house experience across multiple categories of client business, including special focus on nonprofit and higher education. Andy is equal parts strategist, creative manager, and storyteller. I first met Andy is one of his students via the Level C program. Level C is an education platform. They're a company and a certification focused on all things brand. I've personally attended, and surprisingly, graduated both levels one and two. And all I can tell you is that there's something special about what they are building. How Andy sees the world. In his relationship with brand Master, Marty Neumeier. Andy is an accomplished brand professional in his own right. And well on his way to becoming a brand icon. Just don't tell him that. And this is his story. I am here with Andy Starr. He describes himself as a provocateur for hire at the intersection of education, business and brand. He is also the co founder and partner at Level C and we'll talk a bit about that. But Andy, what is a provocateur for hire at the intersection of education, business and brand? Andy Starr 4:20 That's what I like to think of a brand professional as being, someone who pokes the bear, someone who's looking to, you know, everyone's favorite word, zag. You know, when if everyone is doing this over here, I want to be the guy doing this over there, okay? And just you know, sometimes being different for the sake of being different, but professionally being different for the sake of being valuable. And that's what this whole thing is it's provocation. provocation can be bad, but provocation can be really good. It can be valuable, it can mean something. And that's how I see myself I just see myself as a provocateur for Hire less for hire these days, just, I'm getting tired of doing client work. You know, I want to focus more on being provocative in the professional education space. So, you know, and that is that is where we find ourselves, you know, at the intersection of business and education. You know, education is a business, I've had several education clients, universities and colleges that that refuse to acknowledge that they're a business at the end of the day, that makes my job as a brand provocateur more difficult. So when Marty and I started this, I was just like, let's just call it what it is, let's let's, let's not gloss, spin, blow smoke. Education in business is where we are. It's what we do. And it's what we're looking to transform, you know, then leave leave, leave the bullshitters to play in other spaces that they just make up, or that they they ignore. So that's, that's my jam. Marc Gutman 6:00 Yeah. And so, you know, you're talking about being a provocateur in the education space, which leads me to believe that there's something wrong with the education space, at least as we see it today. That holds true, please correct me if I'm incorrect in making that assumption. What's wrong with education today? Like, what are you trying to change? Andy Starr 6:19 Oh, man, you don't have enough time in your podcast. The big problem with education is its inability, or refusal to accept the fact that it needs to change. And there are 1,000,001 ways in which it needs to change, it needs to change from an administrative perspective, it needs to change from an academic perspective, it needs to change from a financial perspective. And it needs to change from a distribution perspective. So for us, in the professional education, part of the sandbox, we believe that education should be a life long thing, it should go on forever, we should, you should no one should ever want to stop learning. Most people don't. But access, quality of content, relevance of content, applicability of concepts, that needs to change. And we're not proposing that we, we are like the savior of education, we don't think that we're the savior of professional education, we want to, we want to practice what we preach and live up to what we believe. And so when it comes to professional education, we want to keep it focused on you know, we're not branding and marketing and sales and advertising content and social media. rebrand, and we're not, we don't want to take a how to brand approach to education, we just want to say, here's how you think about education, right? So when we think about our academic perch, we're not giving people prescriptions, we're just giving them food for thought. Okay, but that's not really out there. There are people who do it, you know, there, there are outlets, there are providers that do it. But there are fewer and farther between. and at a higher academic level, like MBA programs, there are really no MBA programs that talk about brand. If you want to find brand and Wharton's MBA program, you have to specialize more focus in marketing, you have to take marketing courses at Wharton. And, you know, hopefully you hear about brand at some point, but they don't talk about how to think about brand. That's just a loose example. So it's a big mountain to climb, dude. And Marty and I care very much about education, I especially care about education, my professional background and my family's background. I have educators in my family, my father was a professor, my grandfather was a university founder, he fell, he co founded a university and was an academic dean. And it's, I just care about it, it just matters. And so that's the space we want to play in. Marc Gutman 9:07 And I definitely want to get into that. And we might go there real soon here. And as he is you're talking like this idea of education remaining. You mentioned a lot of great points, you know, applicability and accessibility and just availability, but this, this idea of like education, having to remain relevant, and I'm personally just obsessed with this idea of like, relevance, and what does that mean, and how do you stay relevant? Because what struck me as you were your speaking is that Yeah, like our education gets stale really quick, especially in today's environment. It's not like, back in the day when the university held the professors and the university, you held the books and you had to go there and that was the only access you had to that information. And then the world was also moving equally as slow. But now, you know, we can we can Learn from a TED talk from someone around the world from someone we've never had access to put that in, in motion change the world. And so this idea of like staying relevant, and not even really sure, I have a question for you at the end of this is just fascinating to me. And that, you know, that really seems to be a huge challenge for people in the education space. Andy Starr 10:20 For sure. And like you said, one of the catalysts of that, you know, are sources of that challenge, is because unlike 30 4050 years ago, the world is just hyper connected. I don't even know if that's accurate. And it's just, we are all connected. We move and we think, and we learn and we consume at faster and faster speeds. Right? And so it raises the question of the role of immediacy, in education, right? Because and, and speed and immediacy, I think, are part of its relevance, right? How quickly can I have access to the educational content? How quickly can I consume it? How quickly can I be deemed to be proficient? And how quickly can I get out back in the real world, and actually use it and make a difference, bring value and earn something in return? Right? Those questions, raise 1000 more questions. So it's, it's complicated. It's it's super, super tricky. But, you know, another thing about relevance is, and this is something that we, we've actually tackled in our first level masterclass. For the teams that worked on higher education as a category to disrupt, right, we've heard things about kind of the cadence, or the formulaic structure of education, and this is something that Marty feels especially strong about, traditionally, is and even today, kind of the model of education is, you know, at that at the college and beyond level is like, you study theory, right? You spend four years, two years, you know, three years unless you studied theory, and then you go out in the world, and you learn gain us skills, right? But while you're studying that theory, it's like, What am I supposed to do with this? How does this how does how is this theory relevant to the world that I'm about to land in? Or that it's about to fall on me one way or another? How do I how do I survive just with this theory? And so you know, there's one school of thought, that says, you know, learn the skills first, and then continue lifelong learning and learn that theory, have a greater appreciation, a better ability to think critically and analytically. Right. But the flip side to that argument is, well, that's what a liberal arts education is in liberal arts teaches you how to think critically. And analytically, you're reading about history and philosophy, and literature, you're not doing that just for shits and giggles, right, you're not doing it solely to feed the ego of a tenured professor, although that that is part of it. It prepares you for a world that is constantly evolving. A world in which the kind of one career from start to finish doesn't exist the way it used to, with a few exceptions. And you have to be able to think critically and analytically so that you're flexible enough to kind of jump from one chapter of your career to the next from one role to another, from one category to another, and in some cases, making a complete career change from one to another. And I did that, right. And so we've altruistically, we sleep very well at night. Because we know that what we're doing is righteous, it's self righteous, we want to make a valuable contribution in this space. But at the same time, it's not that we've set ourselves up for failure is that it's a huge mountain to climb, and we will most certainly never get to the peak of it. But that's okay. That's okay. Marc Gutman 14:17 So much to unpack there and so, I'm not even gonna try. What I'd like to do is— Andy Starr 14:21 Talk to my therapist, I'll call her! Marc Gutman 14:25 I'd like to shift gears a little bit. And, you know, you talked a little bit about your family and your family history. But you know, and you also mentioned that part of being a provocateur is is being different and so when you were young, were you always striving to be different as a child. I mean, was this was this ingrained in you? Is like eight year old Andy always pushing boundaries? Andy Starr 14:46 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, I grew up in a relatively conservative minded white collar family. Dad was a lawyer mom was a social worker, and We lived in the suburbs of Philadelphia, and it was a relatively conservative, change resistant part of the world change resistant parents. And yeah, I was kind of a black sheep. I just, you know, if everyone told me to do one thing, I just wanted to do the complete opposite. I liked feeling and being different. But that's as a kid, you know, that I didn't understand the value in that. And it wasn't, it wasn't really until I got into this work. 2030 years later that I understood, why being different, wanting to feel different, look different, act different. Think different, is so important, and why I cared about it so much without understanding why and and, you know, Marty, we talked about this in the class, it's, you know, human beings are hardwired to notice what's different. But it's the why we're hardwired, we different matters, because we think that there's something in it for us. Whether it's noticing something different, or acting, feeling wanting to be different, there is a perceived payoff to that. And that when I when I realized that when that was kind of revealed to me, and for me, my whole perspective, my perspective on everything changed on life on career. And then when I realized how I could weaponize that and use that in this space, like, everything just kind of broke, broke open. And, but but but it, it bears it bears repeating. And like, I feel like the need to constantly say it, it's not being different. For the sake of being different. There's a reason for it. The reasons may be my own, right. The reasons may be a client's goals, it kind of doesn't matter. But there are reasons for doing it. There are reasons for wanting to do it. And there's sure shit reasons for learning how to think about that. Right. And again, it all comes back to learning to think. But I'm not, we don't teach you I would never teach someone how to be different. But we do talk about and I'm happy to talk about thinking about being different. Marc Gutman 17:23 Yeah, and I think thinking about being different is the for me at least the the key idea because inherently, we don't want to be different. I mean, our childhoods could have been very similar, except I grew up in Detroit new grew up in Philadelphia, but I remember, like, I felt different, but I didn't want to be different, you know, and being different,there was always this ying and this Yang between like and tention between being different and people saying, that's what makes you special. And the reality of like, we want to be part of groups, and we want to fit in and we want to be the same. And I think, you know, we can talk about this later. But I think that's the trap brands fall into all the time is that they, they want to fit in, they want to be seen, like they they're scared to be different. And they're thereby they try to fit in and then they get bland and they get diluted and all these things. Things happen. So, you know, when you were a kid when you were looking around and being different, I mean, what were you into? Like, what were your interests? Like? What did you think you were gonna be? Did you think you were gonna be a provocateur for hire? Did you think you were gonna be an education? Like, what do you think you were gonna do? Andy Starr 18:28 No, I mean, I guess Looking back, I think I had this oddly romantic sense that I would follow in my father's footsteps. You know, I my dad was incredibly important to me. My grandfather was in both my grandfather's were incredibly important to me. And I kind of always saw myself following in one of their footsteps, either a lawyer without knowing what that meant, or understanding why it was just, it was my, what my dad did a university Dean because that's what his father did. Or a psychoanalyst, which is what my other grandfather did. They were, you know, that's, that's what I wanted to do. And I always, even through college, I had that, that that romantic sense of romance, that romantic sense of the trajectory of my life, or what I thought that trajectory needed to be. Where was always there, I couldn't shake it, no matter how hard I tried, until I actually started playing drums. That was something that I always wanted to do. I always, you know, even as a little kid, I was always attracted not to the to the guitarist, or the, the lead singer, or, you know, you know, the pianist, I was always attracted to the guy sitting in the back, because the guy sitting in the back was always the one that you felt, or the one that I felt in my chest in my gut, right? And the drummer always seemed like, like the black sheep, and I honestly couldn't necessarily tell you Why that was but it always was in sports. I was in soccer. I'm still a soccer geek. I played soccer since I was three. Well, when you're a kid, everyone wants to be the striker the forward who scores the goals. I never did. I wanted to be the goalkeeper. Why? Because the goalkeeper got to wear the different shirt, the gloves. And the goalkeeper was always either the hero if he made the big save, or the goat, the bad goat, if he if he botched it and let a golden so drum, you know, the drums and being goalie in soccer. To me, they were always the same thing. All the glory, if you got it a complete, you know, complete disaster if you fuck it up. And for me, there was never I was never satisfied. I never enjoyed To me, the middle ground was boring. It was uninteresting. It's like it was like, it was just nothing and I wanted nothing to do with it. And so my parents encouraged me to play soccer. And as a kid, they wanted me to have nothing to do with the drums because to them, the drums weren't a real musical instrument playing the piano playing the guitar playing, you know, the violin or or saxophone. That was fine with them. Uh, playing drums wasn't and I didn't get to play drums until I got to college. And when I did, I mean, I remember the first time I did it, and that actually changed my life more than almost anything. Because I felt like I was meeting myself and meeting the person I always wanted to be for the first time. Do you remember that day? I totally I, I remember the day I decided no matter what I was going to find a drum set and teach myself. And I remember, I remember the day that I sat down behind a drum set with drumsticks in my hand for the first time. Absolutely. I remember my first gig. And it was all my first my freshman year and it changed everything. It literally changed the trajectory of my life. Marc Gutman 22:04 Where were you that first day you played the drums take us there. Andy Starr 22:08 It was January of 1998, we had just come back from winter break. And there was a senior on campus who was a drummer in a funk band, and the funk band played on campus. And when they would it was like the thing it was like the coolest thing ever. And he you know, kind of did your your typical rock star kind of you know, playing with his shirt off sunglasses cigarette dangling from his lips. And it just drove people nuts. And I was just like, I just need to do that I was super shy. I didn't drink I didn't party. And it was something I always wanted to chase. But it was also a way for me to stand out on my campus. And that was important to me, I wanted to have a good college experience. And up to that point, I really wasn't. And I knew who he was. It took me a semester to work up the courage to approach him. And I on on a January day we were we had been back on campus for like a few days. And I saw him walking and I ran out of the building. I chased him down. It was really, really cold. And I just said, “Hey, you're the drummer in that band. I would love to learn how to play the drums. Could I maybe play on your kit a couple times and see if I can do it?” And I thought it was just gonna say no. And he said, “Yeah, here's the room on campus where they're stored. Here's the code to get in play anytime you want.” And it took me like another week to work up the courage just to go and do that. And I had no idea what I was doing. There was YouTube didn't exist. So I couldn't watch videos on how to do it. But I had a pair of drumsticks that I had, you know, come into my possession along the way. And I sat down. And just for some reason I knew what to do. And it was it became addictive. And I played my very first gig with people a few months later, he had heard me practicing and they wanted to know who was playing. They said, You're really good. What do you want to jam with us? And that and that first gig, I remember the songs we played, was like it was just, it was transformative. And that's so that's what I wanted to do for a long time. I wanted to just be professional musician. I went to music school after college. I wanted to be in a rock band. That's what I wanted to do. Andy Starr 24:29 It didn't play out that way but— Marc Gutman 24:34 Yeah, so what happened? Andy Starr 24:35 Well, you know music piracy, the way the industry change and 02, 03 I wanted to be a musician but I didn't want to be a poor starving musician living out of a van driving six or 800 miles a night from gig to gig just to kind of build up that fan base. I just didn't want that. I wanted to be a musician, not a rock star. So, but I'm still a musician and if people when people ask me like to Talk about myself. I say, you know, I'm a musician, first of Philadelphia and second, you know, and I work in brand third. That is me. Marc Gutman 25:09 Nice. And so but you're not in Philadelphia right now are you? Andy Starr 25:12 No, I left Philly, I left early Jesus like, almost two years ago now. And I was making my way I'm very nomadic right now I was making my way to California through by way of Houston. My best friend lives here and I wanted to see him and I've just gotten stuck here with COVID. So, but I'm Philly, being from Philly is like, you know, other places. It's like an attitude. It's like a state of mind. So I can live it I can live and be anywhere but I'm Philly. Marc Gutman 25:44 Feel like being stuck in Houston, because of COVID is like a great next great like Wes Anderson movie, you know? sounds incredible to me. But so you, you leave college, you go to music school, you're pursuing your love of music, and you decide that you might have to get a real job. And so like, how do you get into like, this brand stuff. I mean, the path isn't always obvious. And I'm guessing it wasn't for you either. Andy Starr 26:14 It wasn't I still didn't know really what brand meant. Then I left music school, I was kind of like in a funk didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't want to be the lawyer that my parents wanted me to be. And my dad working in finance, he and I kind of had had a falling out a little bit we were we had a rocky thing for a few years. And he when he learned that I was going to leave music school, he asked if I would want to kind of learn his business, and maybe build a path, you know, a career and you know, some stability for myself. And I didn't care about the business, but I cared about him. So I did it and and I liked what we were doing. I liked it. That was that was just commercial finance and, and so that was going to be the trajectory of my life. And then it's a much longer story. But things happen professionally with our business and with the economy at the time. And we were professionally we were the victims of fraud. And when that happened, my dad basically lost his business. And I kind of lost a pathway, if you will. And I was very angry, like ferociously angry. And I wanted revenge. And I applied to law school. And I got in. And so I was prepared to do that. And at the time, I was I was in a relationship with a girl and she worked in she was a graphic designer. And she worked like in advertising. And her father was kind of a big name in branding in the branding world. And she she kind of had her own little consultancy, and she would kind of come home from the day and I was trying to study the law. And she was complaining about her clients. And I found myself talking with her about her clients. But I was talking about it from a strategic standpoint, not from a design standpoint. And I found that I was liking that a whole lot more than studying the law between that and her father kind of encouraged me to pursue that and not to pursue the law. And I got out of the like I left law school before it was too late. And I'm really glad I did. And I started kind of doing this loosely with her still not knowing really what Brandman still not really knowing that advertising was like a whole like industry and thing that I could go do professionally. And then one night she suggested that I read a book about branding. And it was called the brand gap. And I had never seen a book like it never heard of the author. But I started reading it and next thing I knew it was the next morning I'd stayed up all night reading it. I just couldn't stop and that experience was probably the other thing that changed my life trajectory. Right? It I just I saw and thought now is the thing I thought about everything. I thought about business I found about people without ever having had any grounding or experience in the concept of brand and literally overnight. I knew exactly what Brandman and from from that point. I knew not only was this interesting, and that I wanted to try it I knew that I could be really good at it. I just knew that I could. It all just made sense in it in some ways. It filled in some gaps for me It helps me think about myself and where I had been in why I was the way I was right and why I am the way I am so it just when that happened when she put brand gap in my hand like that was it. Everything became crystal clear. I ended up stalking Marty for a long time. Like I stalked him online. Found him he was at his his old agency new neutron. And I emailed him and I was just like, hey, read, you know, read the brand gap, I think you're a genius, this is what I want to do, will you be my mentor, please, I need a mentor. And I joke about it, but he basically sent me like a fuck off, I'm too busy email, he didn't use that language. But he that was basically what he was saying. But I didn't care, I kept sending him messages along the way, when I would get my first agency gig when I would get my, you know, produce my first you know, copywriting project, I would just send stuff to him just to see what he would say. And occasionally, he would respond with looks good, keep it up, you know, kind of your, your, your packaged, automated response, right. But I started to try to demonstrate to him that even though I didn't have the experience in the portfolio that a lot of other players in the space had, I thought about it differently. And I thought about it at a much higher and deeper, more impactful level. And he started to respond to me. And at one point, he invited me to come to France to a private workshop, and he was holding with, like, you know, executives, and like super high level designers. He's like, come to the Chateau. It'll be for a week, and you'll, it'll be crazy. It'll change your life. And I didn't go. And it's like the one regret I have professionally. Like, I didn't go to that. But, you know, fast forward Six years later, and look at what I'm doing with him and of all the people in the world who could be doing this episode. Marc Gutman 31:37 Brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you, when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. Crazy, right? And so like six years ago, you have no should I say resume or credential? in this space, you decide that? It's your calling, and it hits you. And how long before like Marty starts to even like, respond to you and you build that relationship. I mean, you kind of jump but I mean, how long are you like sending him like, Hey, I'm still here messages like, hey, like, I, you know, respond. Andy Starr 33:07 I sent him, I sent the very first message to him, like in November of 2009. And then I think I was sending him maybe like one a year, up until like 2014. And I had been basically agency hopping, you know, like shop hopping in between. And then in 24 2013, I sent him something. And that's when he responded with like, Hey, you should come to this workshop. And I, you know, I was like, I don't think I can I'm about to start a new agency gig. You know, and he was like, if you just buy the plane ticket and just come just you don't have don't pay the workshop fee, just just come for free. I would have been the most junior person there. I came this close. But I was starting a new agency gig and an agency I'd really wanted to land in. And I didn't think it was a good idea. And then I didn't I didn't email him. I didn't message him for several years. And then it was in 2017. So it was about three years ago, I had gotten tired of the agency world super tired of it. And I left and I was working at a startup. And they were the startup work in the event space. And they they they were an event business and they had physical space. And they wanted to kind of rebrand themselves, but they also wanted to evolve their product offering. And I started talking with the CEO and we were coming up with ideas of you know, how can we make this event space because at the time, like that was like super commoditized right? And we work was the was becoming the 800 pound gorilla, right? And so there was this idea of using this existing space not just for corporate meetings and events but for education and to come to To fill the schedule, with gurus across different disciplines, leading workshops, that was already happening, but here was a space and we could kind of reposition this business around that. Well, that was cool. But that wasn't wholly unique. And I had this idea to go one step further and find like high level gurus who are already delivering workshops and educational content, and to kind of bring them into this mix. And to do that in partnership with a local business school like a local MBA program. And the idea would be that the MBA program would underwrite a certain of these workshops, right? And allow participants to not just take the workshop, but to earn academic credit towards that schools MBA, that wasn't really being done anywhere, by anyone or any school. And so we decided, like that was, that was a cool idea. We wanted to change it. But we had two challenges. We had to find the gurus, but we also had to find an MBA program willing to do that. So we chased the MBA program first, because to me, that was going to be the bigger lift. But fortunately, a local Philadelphia MBA program, and we had a connection, we had a meeting, we had, we made a proposal to the dean, and we said, let's just give it a shot. Let's do a one on one professional Ed, you know, adult education workshop in a specific topic that we all agree on. And the MBA program will give or make credit available. Let's just see, the dean just was like, Okay, done. Let's try it. Okay. And when we were walking out of the conference room, someone said, by the way, what's the topic? And who's going to be the subject matter expert? We didn't know. And I literally just blurted out, how about brand branding that's relevant to business. And no MBA program really offers that. It's a great, great idea. And who will lead it? And I was like, there's a guy who wrote some books. And they said, Great, set it up. And then I so then I sent Marty an email for the first time in years. And I reminded him who I was. And I told him, here's what we're doing. Here's what we want to try. We want to try it with you. And I really didn't expect a response. I got a response in like 30 minutes. And he's like, let's talk and Marty doesn't like to like do things by email, or by phone, he likes to Skype, or he likes to see you. And I was like, Oh my God, I've never done that before. I've never spoken to him Skype, whatever, we set it up. And we set up a 30 minute kind of intro. That's what I thought it was going to be. It was like a two and a half hour like, thing back and forth. And my entire team was like, behind my laptop, like, like listening. And I'm just jamming with Master. And he said, like, in his entire career, people have come to him with ideas and wanting to partner and said, this was the best idea that anyone had brought to him, like better than lynda.com wanting him to like come in and do that better than LinkedIn learning, wanting him to come in and like be exclusive is like this was it. Okay, crazy. Fast forward a little bit. We were getting everything set up the MBA, there was a problem with the MBA program we pulled out. And then the the startup just it wasn't it wasn't working. They wanted to go in a different direction. They weren't funded properly. And so I bounced, but Marty and I kept talking, we would email and kind of we started asking ourselves like, what if, like, how about, you know, could we blah, blah, blah. And one day, he just said, Look, if they weren't willing or able to do it, why don't you and I just do this ourselves? Why don't you and I just try it? Okay, I flew out to Santa Barbara. He invited me to his home. We locked ourselves in his home studio for like three or four days. And we went through our own process that we teach. We did it on ourselves. And we had this thing basically, in the can, like before I left. And here we are. Yeah. And so Marc Gutman 39:30 Take yourself back to that time in Santa Barbara. I mean, what do you think? And are you just looking around like, I can't believe this is happening like this, you know, this, you know, as they say, the this escalated quickly, right? Like all the sudden, you're in partnership, and I know it's that you've built a relationship over time. And I and I really don't want to minimize that because I think it's a huge thing that I want people to take away from this that you you built a relationship you stayed in front of Marty and when the time was right, it was right for both of you, but It is you're in Santa Barbara, and you're building this thing and you're like, we're doing this thing. Are you just kind of looking around like you're, you mentioned, you're in his studio. I mean, this is, you know, I think for any brand, or you have his books on your desk, I mean, mine, I just put mine just to the side here. But you know, I've typically got stacks of them. I mean, to me, that would be like, whaaatt? Andy Starr 40:17 So I had met him, he, he flew to Philadelphia, while we, you know, after we kind of agreed we were going to try with that startup, he flew to Philadelphia, because he wanted to meet me and the team at the time. And he, he gave us he basically did his brand flip workshop, like, for like, almost nothing, he just wanted to meet us. And so I had the starstruck thing when I picked him up at the airport. That was like, that was bananas. I was like, you know, just a little kid. But when he invited me to out to his home, that's when, for me, it became something different in the coolest thing that we did, there was, you know, I'm in his is his studio. It's like, the kind of studio I would want for myself, you know, and he has, like, on his bookshelf, he has, you know, extra copies of all of his books, and then all of the design and business and strategy books that have influenced him, right. And I'm literally going like book by book, and then I get up to the shelf with extra copies of the brand gap, right? I mean, this is so wild. So out, and they were all like super pristine, right? Except for one copy. There was one copy that was all just beat up and folded and and there were rabbit ears, and there were little postage sticking out of it. And I thought like, that's really weird. Like, why is that up there? like is that his copy? Was that like a is that a first edition? Whatever, I take it down. I'm looking at it. And I'm just, I'm holding it in my oily, you know, hands. And I'm just what is it? And he walked out of the office for a few minutes. And that's when I was doing this. And when it comes back in, I just turned to him. And I'm like, what's the story with this book? Because it's not pristine, like sentimental value. And he's like, Oh, look at the cover. And I looked at the cover and it said Steve's copy hands off, and I'm like, I don't get it. Who Steve and he just so nonchalantly says well, that Steve Jobs copy. I was like what I'm holding Steve Jobs copy of the brand gap beat up folded marked, you know, rabbit ear, you know, notes, you know, that for me? Was that was another thing like, this guy wants to like be my partner. He wants to do this with me. And that would that's that was really kind of like the first time with Marty that I felt way out of my element. Like, this should not be me. I'm not I'm I should not be the one to do this. It made me It made me like nervous. I was like genuinely, like, kind of out of sorts about it. And then we sat down and started going, you know, through the thing, and I'm kind of a control freak. I like to be in control when when I know what I'm doing. And I feel confident about what I'm doing. I can I can drive the train. And I was just like, no way. I was like, dude, you're in charge. Like, you lead the way. I'm going to follow I'm going to do this with you. But like, you know, Master apprentice, you know, Jedi Padawan like I'm totally okay with that. And when we started going through it, I thought I knew things right? You know how like, you can read the books and you can have your successes and you can have your confidence. You You think you know your shit, right? You know, I know all my rudiments on the drums and like, you know, I'm pretty decent drummer. But then you meet like a real German you're like that cat is just a bad fucking dude. When when we kicked it off that morning, I was just like, Whoa, and I regret not like recording the entire thing for posterity. Because it was that bad. It was that like, Oh, alright, so this is what this is what it's really like when the master does it. And I mean, like, the whole thing was like a learning experience. And I was like, I was drunk by like, the end of the first day. Marc Gutman 44:19 Yeah. And, you know, you were wondering, like, hey, how could this be me? But it is you so in working with Marty like what makes him a great partner? Andy Starr 44:30 Marty's no bullshit. That's the best thing about him. Because, you know, even better than his experience and his talent than his intelligence and his intellectual curiosity. He reads more than almost anyone I know. But he is no bullshit. He's no bullshit with me. He's no bullshit with our students. He calls it exactly the way he sees it. And it's funny, we've actually had disagreements about that. When we get feedback in our class, I'm an advocate For a slightly gentler approach, I don't think that there's a need to be super blonde just for the sake of, you know, minimizing bullshit. And we've, we've disagreed on that, but I've come around to really appreciate that, and have have just the most the utmost respect for his candor is the elegance that he provides feedback, and expertise, the the elegance with which he shares his mastery with other people. Um, and that was no different for me. I just had the luxury of having it one on one in a very intimate setting. Right. That's, that's the thing about Marty, I'm just an app, and look at the space we work in, look at how much bullshit there is. I mean, I've worked at agencies, and I've worked with people who literally have this philosophy that we are in the bullshit business. Right. And that's hard. That's hard to swallow, right? For me, at least. And to realize and then experience that the mass the guy who wrote the book, The master himself, is completely, I mean, completely anti bullshit. I was I was just like this, this is just too good to be true. just too good to be true. But it's not. It's just too good. Marc Gutman 46:34 So, no, it is too good. And you know, to flip the coin a little bit, what makes you a great partner. What do you think? Either you can address that from either what you think or what do you think Marty would say? Andy Starr 46:48 I don't see the weird thing is, it's not that I'm uncomfortable asking that. I just don't know. It's not I'm not the type of person who typically answers that. I would say, I think one of the things that makes me a good partner is that I take it, it's because I follow some of the some of the advice that I and guidance that I try to contribute to others, including, I take it seriously. But I'm not too serious about it, I think I have a very healthy idea of what matters and what doesn't. For myself, for Marty, for us, and for our tribe. I'm very patient. And I think I think I'm hyper patient. And I'm, I am, I am extremely passionate about what we're doing. And I know that sounds that may all sound cliched, but one of the things I've learned is that, if that's not if that stuff isn't there, it doesn't really matter what you're doing, right. And the last thing I want to do is be a hypocrite and I couldn't really live with myself, if people thought that I or Marty or we were hypocrites and what we what we preach what we teach. So I think that from what I think for money, I'm also a balance. You know, we talk about personality types and, and roles. And I think that Marty and I complement each other really well, there are things that he can do that I can't, and I don't want to try, there are things that he can do that I can do that I just don't want to do that I don't like to do, or that I'm just not very good at. And there are ways that he thinks that I don't where I can. And I would say the flip is just as true. And I think that we balanced and complete and round each other out really well like that, you know, like looking at it from 80,000 feet. He's a creative and a designer and i'm not i'm a strategist, right? He's He's strategic. I am creative, but we kind of we recognize where we belong, and we recognize our lanes. And he's not as territorial as you. Some people might expect him to be. He is and on all things creative. I defer to him. And he he, I think for him, I'm also going back to the word, you know, going back to the label provocateur, I'm more provocative than he is. I am, I think I'm definitely more brash, I'm a little more raw. And, and maybe he likes that because he doesn't need to be that anymore. He doesn't want to be that anymore. Maybe it's just not enough, you know him. But I think we just we just complement each other really well. We look at the world basically the same way. We never really had an argument about anything. We have disagreements, but we're both patient enough and I am super respectful of his seniority to me. Super respectful, and I value that, and I want him to and I tell him I want him to be the master, not just for others, but for me too. And, and allow me to learn while we're doing this. And I have every time he and I jam on something, I learned something new, which is bananas. And I think all of that makes me a partner that works for him with him. And he's had partners in the past, I'd be curious to hear what he thinks of me as a partner. But that's the thing, I'm not going to let my ego get in the way I want to know. And I want to be a good partner going forward. And even when he takes a step back, and I have to decide how Level C c kind of moves on, I'm going to want other partners, and I want to be a good partner for them. So you know, but I hate talking about myself that way. Like, I hate it. Good question, though. Marc Gutman 50:56 Good, good. Good. And so, you know, as you talk about Level C, like, what, let's talk about that for a second, like, why does brand matter? And why does Level C matter? Like, what are you trying to do with this thing? Andy Starr 51:09 Brand matters, because brand, is brand is the people's connection to business, right? brand is what lets come what lets the company, and the people actually come together. So when a company talks about the people, the people, the people, the customers, it's all just talk, it's the brand that actually makes that real, that makes that consequential, if you will, and so brand should matter to the business world, if they actually care about the consumer, the people, the tribe, the audience, whatever you want to call them, brand should matter to people, because it's through brand that people can influence and change business. Okay. And what we're trying to do with Level C, is we are trying to, we're trying to put in, or, depending on your perspective, restore the role of brand, into the C suite, to restore the role of brand, into a position of influence, on the business side, a position of relevance to the business and the consumer side, to change the conversation. Right, there's a lot of conversation, especially recently, about kind of the role of brand versus marketing. You know, there are a lot of people that believe that, you know, brand is a part of marketing. And we believe that you know, marketing is actually a part of brand. And that's a red herring, I definitely don't want to go down, go down that path here. But we want to influence the way people think about this stuff. And we believe that when they think about it, when they learn, and they think and they process, and then they practice, real change can happen. And you know, here's the thing, we don't we're not trying to change the world. We're not maybe we're one of the few brands out there that is comfortable saying that we're not looking to change the world, we're looking to change a part of business, because we do believe that if you change business enough, then the world can be changed. So that's what we're trying to do. We're, you know, we're creating an army of people who who get this stuff, right. And maybe army isn't the right word. Maybe tribe isn't even right, the right word. We're just recreating it, we're creating the opportunity for people who work in this space, to get it, evangelize it and bring the rest of us forward. Marc Gutman 53:40 Yeah, and I couldn't agree more. I mean, I, you know, I've spoken on this before, but, you know, I believe that this idea of business is just this one big story that we all have invented and buy into. And if, if you hold that to be true, then that means that we have the power to influence it and change it. And I also think there's something that's like, just crazy going on right now. And I'd love to get your take on this. You know, even thinking about like, brand, you know, the history of brand, but like, it's my observation that people are looking to brands now in ways that they never have before, right? They're looking to brands for how do you feel about COVID? For example, how do you feel about racial inequality? How do you feel about politics, you know, in by asking the brand that they want information that it's that well, it says like, well, then if you feel this way, then I feel this way, it's a direct reflection. And I think there's just this crazy thing happening and I don't know if you're seeing that if that's if that feels new to you, but like this idea that like, even the brands I work with, they're like, Well, what do we say like how do we act you know, and now it's a bigger conversation because you know, we can get into like values and your beliefs and you know, hold true to those but I just find this, this kind of forefront of brand and the way people are looking to brand to to comment on the world so that it tells them how they feel about the world. Just this, you know that and I believe in that, like, how the customer felt about the world was it seemed to be that like it was, it's been like that for a long time. It's like the subtext. It's like, it's like, like, what am I? What's my status? Or like, how do I see myself? But now it just seems like way more overt and direct in terms of like, what people are demanding from brands in terms of worldview? Andy Starr 55:19 I mean, it's it's tribalism, right? You can boil all that down into tribalism, or identity, right? Who am I? What do I stand for? What do I want? You know, what matters to me? You know, I think it's a different conversation, I think it reflects a lot of other things, the fracturing of the human of human identity over the last, you know, 20 plus years, and I know, it's, it goes back way longer than that, but, you know, the way the world has changed in the past 20 years, the way we've all become, you know, immediately connected, right, you know, everything can happen. Now. I can talk to someone, you know, we had a student in a thing this morning from Nepal. Like I can talk to him in a second, right. Um, and so I think that that's created a kind of a sense of urgency, maybe that's not the not exactly what I mean. But in terms of, in terms of clarity, about where you stand. And so when people, you know, ask the question, what does the brand stand for? Right? You know, what, what is what is I don't I'm making it up, what is Warby Parker's stance on Black Lives Matter. It's not so much that they care about Warby Parker's stance that is that this is what I'm just speaking for myself what I believe, I don't think it's so much that they care about Warby Parker's stance, I think it's Warby Parker's stance helps frame a little bit more of the context for themselves. How where do they see themselves in relation to Black Lives Matter and Warby Parker and apple and Nike and Starbucks and Virgin and pick a brand? Right? Because really, really, at the end of the day, do you think that people really give a shit about most brands? I don't. I don't. I think that brand loyalty is almost like a misnomer. Like, do I love my iPhone? Yeah. Do I love my Apple watch? Sure. Do. I love my MacBook Pro? Absolutely. And my loyal to the Apple brand? No, I don't care that much. I just don't care about me. I care about my friends, my family I care about my community. I you know, I care about who's at the top of the barclays premier league table. I don't really care about Apple's brand. If I hear that Apple has a position where has done something that I don't agree with? Does it anger me annoying me? piss me off? Yeah, it does. But mainly just because I wish that they could see it the way I see it. But I don't I don't. I don't look at it the way I know a lot of people look at it. You know, when I have a client and they, they they'll ask me, you know, how should we respond to this, I'm always going to tell them the truth and not my truth. But what I strategically believe, is best for the business and the brand. And that's always a tricky kind of gray area. But I just I just don't think people care. I I struggled to believe that people genuinely care. And people may say, I really care. And they may they may believe that they may feel that way. And I and I, I won't disrespect or deny that that happens. I won't. But I think deep down maybe you know, it's it's more ID than ego. I don't think it matters to them as much as it's been made out to. Okay. But again, if you believe if you believe me when I say if you believe in the idea that the brand is what connects people to the business, well, then what the brand stands for their values, their their position on a given issue, political, social, whatever, then it does matter. For better or for worse. I just don't think that the brand can control it as much as they think they can. Right? Because they certainly can't control their audience. They can influence their audience. They can try to anticipate what the majority of their audience believes or feels about a specific issue. But, you know, when it comes to control, and it doesn't exist, it just doesn't influence exist, but even that has limit so I roll my eyes a lot and when when I when I see the question, you know where the debate happening? It's I'm just like, who really cares? That's different from caring about the issue. I definitely care about the issues, I feel very strongly about the same issues. I just don't care about what the brand thinks, or what the brand says they stand for. I just don't. Marc Gutman 1:00:17 Hmm. So to challenge you on that, if Apple and by the way, this is theory, everybody, if Apple actually denounced black lives matter if they had a more not inclusive policy towards LGBTQ and like, you know, did not recognize those folks that would have no bearing in your purchase of their product. Andy Starr 1:00:45 It probably would. And not probably would, it would. But that's not again, it's not so much because of what Apple stands for. It's for what I stand for. Correct? Yeah, that's, that's why and again, I, I recognize that what I just said, may may initially resonate with some people like why wait, he doesn't care? No. I care very, very much. I have extremely strong feelings that I believe are in the majority. By the way, I think that I stand with most people on most issues I do. And because they matter so much, to me, that's what influences my decision. That's what influences my behavior in one way or another. If he here's another example. Um, I remember, I think it was a couple years ago, the I think it was the CEO of barilla. Pasta, I was kind of outed for making, you know, homophobic remarks, right? Mm hmm. I'm like a pasta. I basically eat spaghetti every day of my life. and up to that point, Burleigh, was the brand that I like to make. I haven't had real essence. And I never will. Not because because of what he said, but that's not what influenced my decision is because of how I feel. That's how strongly I feel about it. Right. And, and there's a difference. I think it's subtle, it's nuanced. It's complicated. It's not simple. But if someone if Apple so if Apple basically denounced Black Lives Matter, and people boycott Apple, it's more because of how those people feel for themselves about the issue. That's what I'm saying. Marc Gutman 1:02:33 I got it. Got it. Well, Andy, I could talk to you forever. This has gone super fast. And as we near the end of our time together, I'd love for you to think back to that time when you first walked into that music room and sat down at those drums and maybe hit the drum once or twice and had that charge of electricity. And if that Andy ran into you today, what do you think he'd say? Andy Starr 1:03:04 What do you think he would say about me now? Yeah, I have no idea. Wow, I've never been asked that before. I've always been asked the opposite. What would I say to Andy? That Andy, then I, I like to think that he would say, I'm sorry, I have no I'm like, stunned by that, that. That question is going to haunt me for a while. And I don't I don't even want to say I have to get back to you on that. Although I know I'm going to I have no idea dude. What? What is Wow, what an amazing question. Andy Starr 1:04:00 You can see my face and you can i'm, i'm i'm just like I can I can I ask you? Why did you ask me that question? Marc Gutman 1:04:17 Part of it is I want to know if your younger self would have been impressed or would have been interested or intrigued or curious or a myriad of other thoughts about how your life turned out and where you're at today and where you're going. Huh? And if that young Andy who is probably thinking, Oh my gosh, I'm about to become a life long professional musician. I would have thought like, Hey, you know, this is just as good playing music in a different way. Andy Starr 1:04:48 I think this is just more of me now. Then. What I would have been back then. But I I like to think or maybe I just hope that he would have have asked me Is it a good gig or is it a good deal? And without hesitation I I'd say it's the best gig. That is the best gig. This is a people business dude. Like it's more about people than it is about business. the business side of Level C like it's like the least fun thing that I do. The most fun thing that I do is meeting people like you meeting you know, meeting people like Mata Marina do meeting people like Matt Davies, Chris lateral Layla Casanova. I'm, you know, 300 more than 300 people, awesome human beings who work in the human side of business, from like, 4050 countries so far. That's, that's like the best gig in the world, the best gig. Marc Gutman 1:06:00 And that is Andy Starr of Level C. Well, what did you think? Drinking from the firehose yet? I could have talked with Andy for hours, but I think we've covered quite a bit of ground and our time today. A big heartfelt thank you to Andy Starr, and the team at Level C. We will link to all things any star in Level C in the show notes. If you're interested in sharpening your brand chops, I highly recommend you check out their masterclasses. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. A lot big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can't deny.

Ask me anything HEREGet your FREE MASTERCASS HERE worth $149JOIN Go All In Exclusive HEREToday on the show we have my good friend and business partner Grant Thom. Grant has over 30-years of marketing and branding experience and his super power is spotting trends in markets and moving quickly to capatalise on them!Grant and I have been working hard on a new project called "The Brand Gap" and we are just a few weeks away from launching it. We both thought it timly to introduce the topic to you the listener since it is universal and applicable to all businesses whether you're a small solopreneur or you're a major corporate. Everyone needs to revisit their brand frequently and also spend some time working out where the white space is in your market because that is where the opportunity lies.Connect with Grant via the Go All In contact page: https://goallin.com.au/contactWebsite: https://goallin.com.auYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/goallinInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/go_all_in_podcast/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertnbrus/Email: robert@goallin.com.auBook referenced on the show: Branding is Sex by Deb Gabor

In today's episode, I have an amazing conversation with one of the true leading brand innovators in the industry - Marty Neumeier. Marty has worked with so many innovative companies to advance their brands and culture and written many books on the topic that I, and millions of others, have fallen in love with. With empathy being such a strong thread through everything he talks about, we discuss the role of empathy and good design in creating a charismatic and authentic brand.  Key Takeaways:You have to have empathy for your audience - but then you need to test things.There is a right way and a wrong way to test creative designs and brand strategies!Empathy is a marketing metaskill that  enables you to make better creative decisions and campaigns.You have to be okay with accepting feedback and checking your ego if your ideas don't resonate with the customer. Customer feedback helps you to be a better creative. “As creative people, we fall in love with our ideas.. Empathy is the starting place. But then you have to prove your ideas work. You have to make sure your compass is accurate.” - Marty Neumeier About Marty Neumeier: Marty Neumeier is an author, designer, and brand advisor whose mission is to bring the principles and processes of design to business. His series of “whiteboard” books includes Zag, named one of the “top hundred business books of all time,” and The Designful Company, a bestselling guide to nonstop innovation. His first book, The Brand Gap, has been read by more than 23 million people since 2003. A sequel, The Brand Flip, lays out a new process for building brands in the age of social media and customer dominance. His latest book, Scramble, is a “business thriller” about how to build a brand quickly with agile strategy. In 1996, Neumeier founded Critique magazine, the first journal about design thinking. He has worked with innovative companies such as Apple, Netscape, Symantec, Kraft Foods, Adobe, Google, Microsoft, Riot Games, and Capital One to help advance their brands and cultures. Today he serves as Director of CEO Branding for Liquid Agency in Silicon Valley, and teaches a five-tier program on brand mastery through his company Level C. Neumeier travels extensively as a workshop leader and speaker on the topics of brand, design, and innovation. He and his wife divide their time between California and France.  Connect with Marty Neumeier:  Level C masterclasses: levelc.orgPersonal website: martyneumeier.comLinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/martyneumeier/  Don't forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy  Connect with Maria: Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.comLearn more about Maria's brand strategy work and books: Red-Slice.comHire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-RossLinkedIn: Maria RossInstagram: @redslicemariaTwitter: @redsliceFacebook: Red Slice

In today's episode, I have an amazing conversation with one of the true leading brand innovators in the industry - Marty Neumeier. Marty has worked with so many innovative companies to advance their brands and culture and written many books on the topic that I, and millions of others, have fallen in love with. With empathy being such a strong thread through everything he talks about, we discuss the role of empathy and good design in creating a charismatic and authentic brand.  Key Takeaways:You have to have empathy for your audience - but then you need to test things.There is a right way and a wrong way to test creative designs and brand strategies!Empathy is a marketing metaskill that  enables you to make better creative decisions and campaigns.You have to be okay with accepting feedback and checking your ego if your ideas don't resonate with the customer. Customer feedback helps you to be a better creative. “As creative people, we fall in love with our ideas.. Empathy is the starting place. But then you have to prove your ideas work. You have to make sure your compass is accurate.” - Marty Neumeier About Marty Neumeier: Marty Neumeier is an author, designer, and brand advisor whose mission is to bring the principles and processes of design to business. His series of “whiteboard” books includes Zag, named one of the “top hundred business books of all time,” and The Designful Company, a bestselling guide to nonstop innovation. His first book, The Brand Gap, has been read by more than 23 million people since 2003. A sequel, The Brand Flip, lays out a new process for building brands in the age of social media and customer dominance. His latest book, Scramble, is a “business thriller” about how to build a brand quickly with agile strategy. In 1996, Neumeier founded Critique magazine, the first journal about design thinking. He has worked with innovative companies such as Apple, Netscape, Symantec, Kraft Foods, Adobe, Google, Microsoft, Riot Games, and Capital One to help advance their brands and cultures. Today he serves as Director of CEO Branding for Liquid Agency in Silicon Valley, and teaches a five-tier program on brand mastery through his company Level C. Neumeier travels extensively as a workshop leader and speaker on the topics of brand, design, and innovation. He and his wife divide their time between California and France.  Connect with Marty Neumeier:  Level C masterclasses: levelc.orgPersonal website: martyneumeier.comLinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/martyneumeier/  Don't forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy  Connect with Maria: Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.comLearn more about Maria's brand strategy work and books: Red-Slice.comHire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-RossLinkedIn: Maria RossInstagram: @redslicemariaTwitter: @redsliceFacebook: Red Slice

The main reason to write a business book is to create a really great calling card for what it is you do, says Marty Neumeier, bestselling author of The Brand Gap and Zag. Especially if what you do is unique.

The podcast is sounding a little different, isn't it? Welcome to The Unstuck Podcast, where we help creative entrepreneurs turn their side hustles into excellent businesses. In this episode we discuss; - How to get started with branding - Educating yourself - Changing our relationship with fear Join the conversation! Submit your thoughts and questions with #UnstuckPodcast. Need help with branding? Follow this link. https://www.demiharper.com/links Download "Introduction to Branding" for free: https://mailchi.mp/41a1d54a52c1/6o1qx3bw7n Follow me: Twitter: https://twitter.com/_demiharper Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_demiharper/ Book recommendations: - The Brand Gap, Marty Neumeier - Crush It! Gary Vaynerchuk - Delivering Happiness, Tony Hsieh

Join Marty Neumeier, Andy Starr, Jacob Cass & Matt Davies as we uncover the ideas, techniques, and principles that you need to become a brand master, starting at Marty’s famous definition of brand, the process of uncovering this definition, as well as Marty’s classic books Brand Gap, Zag & Brand Flip. We explore the future of branding in the C Suite, and what that means for designers, plus how we can use Metaskills and agile strategy to create better brands. This is an episode not to be missed!

Marty Neumeier is an American author and speaker who writes on the topics of brand, design, innovation, and creativity. He currently serves as Director of CEO Branding for Liquid Agency, a branding agency headquartered in San Jose, California.

The goal of every brand leader is to close the gap between where the brand is today and where it needs to be tomorrow.   In this episode we unlock the 7 questions which you can ask and answer to close this gap. The 7 questions are designed to be used every month or quarter and empower leaders to stay close to the course required for success. Listen to hear and understand the 7 questions and how these questions apply to real life brands and what value they can create when used well. Find out more at www.blirt.com.au 

This episode is all about The Brand Gap by Marty Neumeier. In this timeless classic about branding and design, Marty explores what it means to build a strong brand (hint: it's more than a logo) and I share my top 3 Aha! moments revealed in the book. This book and this episode are not to be missed by anyone who wants to learn about the immutable laws of branding.

The Power of Habit เขียนโดย Charles Duhigg.The 80/20 Principle เขียนโดย Richard Koch .What I wish I knew when I was 20 เขียนโดย Tina Seelig :.Ingenius โดย Tina Seeling : .ความสำเร็จไม่มีข้อยกเว้น เขียนโดย ดร. สุรินทร์ พิศสุวรรณ : .Train your brain for success : โดย Roger Seip. The lean startup : โดน Eric Ries . The Pumpkin Plan โดย Mike Michalowicz .What get you here won’t get you there โดย Marshall Goldsmith .The long tail โดย Chris Anderson .Steal like an artist โดย Austin Kleon .Rework โดย Jason Fried & David Heinemeier .Winning at Innovation โดย Philip Kotler .What women want โดย Paco Underhill .Disrupt : Luke William .Brand Gap โดย Martin Neumeier .Buyology โดย Martin Lindstrom .The power of focus โดย Jack Canfield / Mark Hansen/ Les Hewitt.The art of war for Executives โดย Donald G Krause .Inferno โดย Dante Alichieri

On this episode we chat with Marty Neumeier (Design Legend and Author of The Brand Gap, Zag, The Brand Flip and Scramble) working with clients, what makes a great brand and how design has changed over time. We Now Join The Program Already In Progress is an interview podcast with a catch. Just because the mic’s are hot doesn’t mean it will make it on the air. Our show starts cold when the host Saul Colt and the guest get into a nice groove. Sometimes that is immediately  and sometimes that can be 30 mins in. The result is you get an interesting conversation between Saul Colt and people he loves and admires without the awkward time at the beginning waiting for people to get comfortable.   Reach out and say hi at www.joininprogress.com or @saulcolt on Twitter #joininprogress   Our show is now supported by Audible. Grab your free download and 30 day free trial at www.audibletrial.com/saulcolt  

Ponto número 1: Uma marca não é um logotipo. Uma marca é muito mais do que isso. Muito mais do que o marketing, design, publicidade. Na verdade, uma marca é o sentimento e a emoção de uma pessoa em relação a uma empresa, produto ou serviço. Pois é, o conceito parece demasiado teórico... Mas na verdade, faz toda a diferença. Veja-se o caso da Apple. O Steve Jobs dominou a arte de criar uma marca. Gostava de saber como replicar para o seu negócio, e tornar-se você também num CBO? (Chief Branding Officer)? Bom, o 25º convidado d'O Podcast do Tiago Faria chama-se Marty Neumeier, autor de 6 livros incluíndo o "The Brand Gap" e "Zag"... E ele vai desmistificar o tema do branding por completo e explicar-lhe como criar a sua marca. Para ver esta entrevista em formato vídeo, aceda a: https://tiagofaria.pt/branding-marty-neumeier/

Marty Neumeier has lived a pretty amazing life. His brushes with fame, celebrity, and how a season of failure pushed him into becoming a bestselling author is a fascinating story. Marty’s mission is to bring the principles and processes of creativity to industry. He is a sought-after teacher, speaker, and one of the leading authors on creativity and business. His book Zag was named one of the “top 100 business books of all time,” and The Brand Gap is considered a the foundational text for modern brand-building. Marty has worked with top companies such as Apple, Netscape, HP, Adobe, and Google, but most impressively he is an engaging, caring, and exceptional person. Enjoy hearing the story of a truly great thought leader.

Marty Neumeier is a best-selling author who has penned such well-known books as The Brand Gap, The Brand Flip and MetaSkills. His latest book is a business thriller called, "Scramble, How agile strategy can build epic brands in record time." In this conversation with Marty, we talk about the importance of having a designer mindset in business and the challenge of building a superior brand in today's tech-infused world. Please send me your questions as an audio file (or normal email) to nminterdial@gmail.com; or you can find the show notes and comment on minterdial.com. If you liked the podcast, please take a moment to go over to iTunes to rate/review the podcast. Otherwise, you can find me @mdial on Twitter. Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/minterdial)

If you haven't had a chance to read the book “Scramble” by Marty Neumeier (author of The Brand Gap, Brand Flip, Brand A-Z, and lots of other awesome branding books), I hope this blog will be the catalyst that makes you pick it up. The subtitle of Scramble is “How agile strategy can build epic brands in record time.” For information on these strategies, check out these Razor Branding Blogs: MODEL OF A BRAND And for everyday branding tips follow Jaci Russo on Twitter: @jacirusso

Minter Dialogue Episode #302Marty Neumeier is a best-selling author, having published such venerable books as The Brand Gap, The Brand Flip and MetaSkills. His latest book is Scramble, How agile strategy can build epic brands in record time. In this conversation with Marty, we talk about the creative process of converting a business book into a business thriller and the process of self-publishing. On the business side, we look at what are the keys to making an agile strategy work, the importance of design and new leadership skills, and how important the role of the Board is in today's business world. Meanwhile, please send me your questions as an audio file (or normal email) to nminterdial@gmail.com; or you can find the show notes and comment on minterdial.com. If you liked the podcast, please take a moment to go over to iTunes to rate/review the podcast. Otherwise, you can find me @mdial on Twitter. Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/minterdial)

The dance between business and design. In this episode I talk with Marty Neumeier, Marty doesn't really need an introduction, he is a true thought leader when it comes to branding. Best-selling author of books such as the Brand Gap, zag and now his lates book Scramble, he is a true inspiration to me. We talk about: The evolution of branding in 4 stages Books: Positioning, a battle for the mind and David Aaker Scramble: Marty's latest book. He sent me an online copy so I was able to get an early read and it's a really great book. Get it here. Agile strategy: what it means and how to start applying it Business and art converging again after ages of being split. Learning about the language of business. Becoming a more strategic designer. Marty's new branding school: Level C. 800CEOREAD retailer for the deluxe soft cover book version The book launch on the 1st of october. You can connect with Marty on his Twitter Website and LinkedIn. I'd appreciate it if you could rate the podcast on itunes. It will help me in reaching other designers. Get the latest podcast in your inbox. Sign up with your email address to receive news and updates. You also get a free Brand workshop template. First Name Last Name Email Address Sign Up We respect your privacy. Thank you! This episode is supported by HolaBrief Very few projects end up with exceptional results. HolaBrief makes it easy to ask all the right questions and nail your design brief every time. Built by designers, for designers. Get early access to Holabrief by subscribing now. Check out Holabrief

I had the pleasure to have Marty Neumeier second time on the podcast and this time we discussed many new things, including his new book Scramble. Marty is the author of Brand Gap, Zag, Brand Flip and other bestselling books. If you are a designer or business owner, then this episode is for you. We covered a lot of interesting stuff with some real-life examples: + How to bridge the gap between business needs and design + Why it is important to know how a day in the life of your customer looks like + Why companies lose focus on their mission and how to keep it + How to onboard your team with new ideas + And other interesting stuff ------- Subscribe to my newsletter: https://goo.gl/iEq3Po ------- ----------- About Marty's book: http://www.martyneumeier.com/scramble/ ----------- About the podcast: https://www.laroche.fm/ About the host: http://eugenesanu.com/ About Laroche: https://www.laroche.co/ Follow me on Medium: https://medium.com/@eugenesanu

I am proud to introduce to you the legendary Marty Neumeier, consultant, designer and author (The Brand Gap, ZAG, Metaskills, The 46 Rules of Genius, The Brand Flip). In this first part of this two-part interview, Marty shares some of his most powerful ideas about the principles of branding, and about the power of design. Marty has a unique ability to distill complex themes into simple, yet powerful ideas expressed in language anyone can understand. t does not get better than this. If you want to dig deeper, get his books, you wont regret it, I promise. Enjoy! Connect with Marty: www.martyneumeier.com (I recommend subscribing to his newsletter) Connect with me: hello@wonderagency.com www.wonderagency.com www.tobiasdahlberg.com

I am proud to introduce to you the legendary Marty Neumeier, consultant, designer and author (The Brand Gap, ZAG, Metaskills, The 46 Rules of Genius, The Brand Flip). In this first part of this two-part interview, Marty shares some of his most powerful ideas about the principles of branding, and about the power of design. Marty has a unique ability to distill complex themes into simple, yet powerful ideas expressed in language anyone can understand. t does not get better than this. If you want to dig deeper, get his books, you wont regret it, I promise. Enjoy! Connect with Marty: www.martyneumeier.com (I recommend subscribing to his newsletter) Connect with me: hello@wonderagency.com www.wonderagency.com www.tobiasdahlberg.com

Most designers go to art school. But should they go to business school instead? On the one year anniversary of the Creative Muscle we interview award-winning author Marty Neumeier, whose books Zag, The Brand Gap, and The Brand Flip have shaped the ethos of companies around the world, including our very own Low Res Studio. Take a listen to hear about the time the president of Apple hated all of Marty's design ideas, why he bought a 400 year-old stone cottage in France, how a person can go from customer of a company to CEO of that same company, and why people buy products in tribes. 

Brian Sooy and Marty Neumeier discuss “The Brand Flip,” a whiteboard overview of how customers now run companies, how you can profit from it and create more loyalty with your customers. Download the complete transcript at http://bit.ly/2tDarOo "The Brand Gap." "Zag." "The Designful Company." With each new book, Marty Neumeier re-defines the role of brand and its influence on your customers. The Brand Flip defines how your customers influence (and own) your brand. As often as brand managers and communications like to think a brand is all about an organization (it's not), Marty's insights and experience prove we have a long way to go in truly understanding the discipline of brand management. Read and download the transcript from Aespire.com

What is a unicorn in the marketing world? Astrid Fackelmann is director of stakeholders at acQuire Technology Solutions and she joins Nic and Sarah to explain. She also gives her insights into branding and brand strategy. On My Desk Sarah mentioned the website and e-newsletter Brain Pickings Nic's recommendation this week was SpacetoCo  Astrid suggested the books The Brand Gap and Daniel Goleman's Emotional Intelligence. Brand Newsroom is a marketing podcast for anyone who has a say in how companies are communicating — covering marketing, content marketing, public relations, media, branding and advertising. Show notes at www.brandnewsroom.net.

In this episode, I had the pleasure of talking to Marty Neumeier, author, designer, and director of transformation at Liquid Agency. We talked about what is a brand, why customers are in charge of your product, how to differentiate yourself on the market, and how to create a culture of constant innovation. Marty has written several best-selling books, including, The Brand Gap, outlining how to bridge the distance between business strategy and design. When Marty is not lecturing or writing, he is facilitating inspirational workshops or providing consulting services to companies the likes of Apple, Google, Microsoft, Skype, Twitter, and Patagonia. You can also listen to this episode on iTunes: https://goo.gl/GMbdoL Soundcloud: https://goo.gl/dWESmC About Laroche: https://www.laroche.co/ ------- Laroche.fm is a podcast hosted by Eugeniu Esanu, the founder and creative director of Laroche.co, a design agency from Amsterdam. We are on a journey of learning from different experts and industry leaders who share their expertise and knowledge. ------- Music: https://soundcloud.com/itsnglmusic

There's no arguing Donald Trump the candidate had a distinct brand. But now that he's president, that brand needs to shift. Can he cross the gap? CFAX 1070's Mark Brennae invited me to talk about which elements of the Trump brand should remain consistent, which need to be retooled, and what will happen if he can't make the transition.

My guest on this week’s Unconventional Genius is Marty Neumeier, Director of Transformation at Liquid Agency, a branding agency located in San Jose, CA. He joins me to talk about how to build better brand skills. Marty’s mission is to help business owners and leaders accomplish their goals and more effectively serve customers. During our conversation, he shares his wisdom on how to develop personal skills, leverage a competitive business edge, and set yourself apart with a fantastic, memorable brand. Marty is the author of a few of my favorite books including "ZAG", "Brand Gap", and "Brand Flip." He consults with the leaders and executives of some of the world’s leading companies while writing and speaking on the topics of business strategy, design, and innovation. How to robot-proof your career One day Uber drivers are going to be replaced by autonomous cars. Many jobs that are done by humans will eventually be done by robots. Work naturally trends toward automation. Marty Neumeier has some ideas about how to avoid falling victim to that trend. He explains his term “robot curve” by saying, “The robot curve is a constant waterfall of obsolescence and opportunity that’s driven by technological change.” He goes on to say that there is a downward pressure on the cost and value of work. However, our goal should be to fight against complacency by investing our time in creative and skill-based work. 5 metaskills that you should start developing now Living in an age where robots could potentially threaten your livelihood sounds scary. But it also opens up opportunities not only to develop new skills but to consider what it really means to be human. Marty Neumeier is an advocate for developing what he calls metaskills. He says that metaskills are master skills that help you learn how to learn. He describes 5 metaskills that everyone should develop in order to be more effective and irreplaceable in the robotic age. Knowing about metaskills is the first step. Using those skills is the next and perhaps most important action. Applying metaskills every day means thinking differently about the ordinary activities and considering how to do them better or more creatively. Listen to this conversation to learn more about these important metaskills and how they can help you build better brand skills. Brand strategy vs. business strategy Brand strategy and business strategy might seem very different, but they are actually complementary. Marty Neumeier says that business strategy is about company goals and prioritization, whereas brand strategy is more directed towards how the customer views the company. If a company fails to achieve alignment with these two business aspects there can be issues both internally and externally. In the past, if you wanted to create a barrier to competition you just had to have more money or less overhead than a competitor. However, now the best barrier to competition is brand. Helping customers make a space in their buying and decision-making process for your business gives you a competitive edge. Listen as Marty explains how customers are now doing the work of creating barriers to competition for you. Building better branding skills by elevating expectations In what product or service category does your brand stand alone? In what area are you the only company doing a particular thing? Marty Neumeier calls this only-ness and he says It is the strictest test of a brand platform. If you have an only-ness factor in a category, then you can uniquely attract and keep customers. Marty has once said, “There are no boring brands, just boring expectations” I love that quote.When leading a company, there are two areas of expectation that have to be managed. Companies need a visionary leader who can set expectations and also manage them through positive reinforcement and reward. Hear all about that and much more during this podcast with genius Marty Neumeier. If you are with a consumer technology company planning to launch a new product at CES or are even looking ahead to CES 2019, the Max Borges Agency can help you succeed. To learn more, check out: www.maxborgesagency.com. Topics Featured In This Episode [1:07] Introduction of Marty Neumeier, Director of Transformation at Liquid Agency [1:47] What is the obsolescence and opportunity of the robot curve [5:42] Marty Neumeier explains the 5 metaskills [8:32] How you can apply metaskills into your daily life [18:23] The differences and similarities between brand strategy and business strategy [20:58] How to use brand strategy to create a barrier to competition [24:57] Raising expectations for a company’s brand in 2 specific areas [28:11] Marty Neumeier talks about his favorite companies and books Resources & People Mentioned Metaskills The Brand Gap Connect with Guest Name Marty Nuemeier Connect With Max Borges www.MaxBorgesAgency.com LinkedIn Subscribe to Unconventional Genius onApple Podcasts, Otto Radio, Player FM, Soundcloud, or Spotify

This is a conversation with Marty Neumeier, author of the Brand Gap, the Brand Flip and Meta Skills among others. He founded the Silicon Valley branding agency Neutron before merging with the Liquid Agency. He now serves as their Director of Transformation.

Welcome to episode #480 of Six Pixels Of Separation - The Mirum Podcast. I have read loved and re-read every little book that Marty Neumeier (he's also the Director of Transformation at Liquid Agency) has written. You should too. I use the word "small" in a physical way (it has nothing to do with his content). Marty writes books that you can read in a few hours. They are small and beautifully designed (re: simple). The ideas and depth of the words sink in (re: a wealth of knowledge). Slowly. Over time. He also writes books that you will go back to you. Every year. With joy. With that, I have been spending a lot of time thinking about design thinking. What does it mean to Mirum? What does it means to business? What does it mean to the personal work that I do with my words? What does it mean to our clients? What does it mean to the future of business? A lot of thinking. A lot of "what does it mean"? Currently, I am in the middle of reading the book, The Designful Company by Marty. I am loving it. Much like Marty's other books (The Brand Gap, Zag, The 46 Rules of Genius, and others), it is beautifully designed (typography matters!) and written in an easy-to-understand way. I reached out to Marty for this podcast. He was just launching his latest book, The Brand Flip. Do you have it? You have to get it. Enjoy the conversation... Here it is: Six Pixels Of Separation - The Mirum Podcast - Episode #480 - Host: Mitch Joel. Running time: 55:52. Hello from beautiful Montreal. Subscribe over at iTunes. Please visit and leave comments on the blog - Six Pixels of Separation. Feel free to connect to me directly on Facebook here: Mitch Joel on Facebook. or you can connect on LinkedIn. ...or on twitter.  Six Pixels of Separation the book is now available. CTRL ALT Delete is now available too! Here's my conversation with Marty Neumeier. The Brand Flip. The Designful Company. The Brand Gap. Zag. The 46 Rules of Genius. Follow Marty on Twitter. This week's music: David Usher 'St. Lawrence River'. Get David's song for free here: Artists For Amnesty. Download the Podcast here: Six Pixels Of Separation - The Mirum Podcast - Episode #480 - Host: Mitch Joel. Tags: advertising awards advertising podcast audio blog blogging brand business book business podcast david usher digital marketing facebook google iTunes j walter thompson liquid agency marketing blog marketing podcast marty neumeier mirum mirum agency the 46 rules of genius the brand flip the brand gap the designful company twitter wpp zag

How audio quality and paying attention to detail impact customer and audience experience   The Dish: Take the time and make the effort to put out the best sounding music our audio content you have the resources to create. That's it!   Links & Resources: Therecordingrevolution.com The Brand Gap by Marty Neumeier macProVideo groove3   Ways to Join the conversation & spread the word: If you found a nugget or two of value, or just enjoyed the conversation, drop by iTunes to leave a rating, review, and subscribe. When the window opens up, click “View in iTunes” on the left side of the screen. From there, you can subscribe and leave a rating and review. Follow on twitter The Brassy Broad on Facebook Stop by brassybroad.com and leave a comment on the shownotes.  Subscribe to The Brassy Broadcast Click here to subscribe via iTunes Click here to subscribe via Stitcher Click here to subscribe via RSS

Moe and Marty discuss how to bridge the distance between business strategy and design.

Today I am speaking once again with Marty Neumeier. The last time we spoke it was on the topic of branding, a topic on which Marty is an internationally renown authority. He has written many books including Zag which was named one of the "top hundred business books of all time" for its insights into radical differentiation; and The Brand Gap, considered by many the foundational text for modern brand building. It fascinates me how often musicians are told to find a real job and that they will never be successful in terms of a career at their art. However, it seems that "real jobs" are less and less of a "real option" in today's economy as technology is taking over in what Marty is calling "the robotic age." We are certainly in the midst of of a shift into a new paradigm,and to find success in this new age we need to apply a different set of skills, Metaskills. And these skills are exactly what Marty's book is all about! Today's wide spread unemployment is not a jobs crisis, it's a talent crisis. Technology is taking every job that doesn't require a high level of creativity, humanity or leadership. These traits should be familiar to any successful artist as they are a big part of building a career in the new music industry. In today's interview we are going to talk about how these skills described in Marty's book can be applied to the careers of musicians and artists and we will be discussing the metaskills feeling, seeing, dreaming, making and learning. I love Marty's books and getting to talk to him once again is fascinating as well as enlightening. I know you will appreciate the insights that Marty shares! Aaron Bethune. Music Consultant. Creative Collaborator. For more information on Marty and his new book please visit: http://www.metaskillsbook.com

This week's podcast is with branding authority Marty Neumeier. It is actually a conversation I had with Marty last year but is even more relevant now than it was then. It is hands down the most eye opening conversation I have had to date regarding branding. I was especially interested to hear what an expert outside of the music industry had to say about branding and where it fits within today's music business. The answers revealed insight that I think is priceless for those navigating today's music industry. Marty is the author of numerous branding books including "Brand Gap" and "Zag" (rated among the top 100 business books in the world) and is also the director of his company Liquid Agency. His clients have included Apple, Nike, PlayStation, Meebo, HP, Microsoft, and many, many more! He is a speaker and has made presentations around the world. I have huge respect for Marty and highly recommend his books to anyone interested in doing any type of business. Aaron Bethune www.playitloudmusic.com “Design drives innovation; innovation powers brand; brand builds loyalty; and loyalty sustains profits. If you want long-term profits, start with design. I believe that design is a powerful business tool and my career has been based on helping companies leverage the power of design to build successful brands from the inside out.” Marty Neumeier Marty Neumeier started out as a graphic designer and he developed hundreds of brand icons, retail packages, and other communications for companies such as Apple, Adobe, Netscape, Kodak, and HP. Eventually, Marty evolved into an editor, and launched CRITIQUE, a magazine that quickly became the leading forum for improving design effectiveness through critical analysis. Later in his career, Marty started Neutron, a design think-tank focused on brand-building processes that drive organizational change. Today, as Liquid Agency’s Director of Transformation, Marty offers high level consulting for some of the world’s most respected brands, while also writing and lecturing worldwide on the subject of branding, business and innovation. Marty’s books have been hailed as breakthroughs by Fast Company, BusinessWeek, and Harvard Business Review. His books have been described as a “practical field guide on how to create and grow a world-class brand”, and “ZAG” was recently named one of “The 100 Best Business Books of All Time”. www.liquidagency.com

The recent uproar about the Gap brand may me rethink my own branding strategy.

Conversation with best-selling author, Marty Neumeier on branding and differentiation. Neumeier is the author of three books: The Brand Gap, Zag, and The Designful Company. In this episode of Power to the Small Business we discuss how to find that radical differentiation within your business that gives customers a gut feeling about you. When you can do that, you have filled in your brand gap. Link to Show Notes: http://budurl.com/khbu Guest: Marty Neumeier - Director of Transformation at Liquid Agency Host: Jay Ehret - Chief Officer of Awesomeness at The Marketing Spot

Marty Neumeier is a brand consultant and the author of Brand Gap, Zag and The Brand Dictionary.

Marty Neumeier is a brand consultant and the author of Brand Gap, Zag and The Brand Dictionary.