Podcast appearances and mentions of marc gutman

Brent Weaver leads the vision for UGURUS and creates educational programs that help agency owners work on their business to drive additional revenues, increase profits, and create freedom in their life. He built his first website at 15 and created his first web-design business at 17. That company grew into a successful, 14-person web agency that was acquired in 2012. Brent has helped thousands of other web professionals master business skills and has made more than $10mm as an entrepreneur. He published the best-selling book, Get Rich In The Deep End, in 2020. Brent is interviewed by his good friend, fellow entrepreneur Marc Gutman.

Marc Gutman is the founder and owner of Wild Story. They're a brand strategy agency and they also do delivery and copywriting. He's a brand strategy wizard, storytelling sorcerer, and business-building ninja. Today he's here to spill the beans on his secret weapon: Chat GPT. (By the way - this intro was written by ChatGPT) Jarrod Harmon runs a company in Western Australia. They help business owners to generate leads, inquiries, and most importantly bookings to help them grow their business. Liam Higgins is a small digital agency owner. They serve businesses in Sydney.

Marc Gutman is the founder of Wildstory, a brand strategy and design studio agency. He's done a lot of amazing work in the outdoor and adventure space, and recently a lot of B2B tech, including his recent client, Cold Quanta. Marc is a storyteller, entrepreneur, adventurer, and idealist. Marc has held several positions in the story business. He served as Story Editor for Oliver Stone's Illusion Entertainment and wrote stories and screenplays for Oliver Stone, Warner Bros., and 20th Century Fox. He has worked on movies with Sean Penn, Jennifer Lopez, Al Pacino, Jamie Foxx, the Farrelly Bros, Bill Murray, Chris Rock, Mark Whalberg, and Jennifer Aniston. In addition to his time in Hollywood, Marc itched the entrepreneurial scratch by founding a multimillion-dollar tech company in Boulder, Colorado.

Marc Gutman is an award-winning storyteller, entrepreneur, adventurer, and idealist. But most importantly, Marc loves brands and their stories. He is the founder of Wildstory, a storytelling agency dedicated to helping visionary entrepreneurs and businesses get crazy clarity on their story. In this episode, Cole and Marc chat about how to build a creative manifesto.  They chat about: client engagements are always opportunities to learn demanding collaboration leveraging the success of past relationships brand strategy and much, much more! You can follow Marc on Instagram or LinkedIn. The Backcountry Marketing Podcast is a production of Port Side Productions.

This week, Brett talks to storyteller and entrepreneur Marc Gutman. Besides being the founder of Wildstory, the marketing agency that helps companies build powerful brands by crafting customer experiences, he has written stories and screenplays for Oliver Stone, Warner Bros., and 20th Century Fox. He shares his Hollywood experience, as well as how he traded all that when he felt seduced by the entrepreneurial boom in Colorado and found out he could continue telling great and engaging stories, this time for brands. Both host and guest discuss the importance of branding, strategies, and customer experiences, for big and smaller brands, making this interview a masterclass on the subject, and fun at that!

This week, Brett talks to storyteller and entrepreneur Marc Gutman. Besides being the founder of Wildstory, the marketing agency that helps companies build powerful brands by crafting customer experiences, he has written stories and screenplays for Oliver Stone, Warner Bros., and 20th Century Fox. He shares his Hollywood experience, as well as how he traded all that when he felt seduced by the entrepreneurial boom in Colorado and found out he could continue telling great and engaging stories, this time for brands. Both host and guest discuss the importance of branding, strategies, and customer experiences, for big and smaller brands, making this interview a masterclass on the subject, and fun at that!

Marc Gutman is a storyteller, entrepreneur, adventurer, and idealist. But most importantly, Marc loves brands and their stories.  Marc held several positions in the story business. He served as Story Editor for Oliver Stone's Illusion Entertainment, and wrote stories and screenplays for Oliver Stone, Warner Bros., and 20th Century Fox.  In addition to his time in Hollywood, Marc itched the entrepreneurial scratch by founding a multimillion dollar tech company in Boulder, Colorado.  Today, Marc focuses his energy on Wildstory, the brand strategy studio for brands that want to outmaneuver their competition.  Wildstory has worked with brands like Thor Industries, Airstream, El Cap, Planet Granite, Earth Treks, Movement, Inboard, Outward Bound School, and First Descents.  Marc is on a mission to help the world après… one brand at a time.  He is also the host of the Baby Got Backstory podcast; delving into the story behind great brands such as Priceline.com, Patagonia, Ugg, Build-A-Bear Workshop and Kswiss.  Marc lives outside of Boulder, CO with his saintly wife and three dirty kids. Connect with Marc Email:  marc@wildstory.com LinkedIn:  in/MarcGutman Instagram:  @MarcGutman Facebook:  /WildstoryMedia YouTube:  /WildstoryMedia

In this episode, branding and storytelling expert Marc Gutman shares how he uses images and words together to tell the stories of brands for entrepreneurs and businesses.Learn about Marc's unique visual task list and how sketchnotes have integrated themselves into his life, in this interesting interview.Sponsored by ConceptsThis episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts. An infinite canvas sketching app built for tablets with a stylus, like the iPad Pro, Microsoft Surface, and Samsung Galaxy Tab.Concepts' infinite canvas lets you spread out and sketch in any direction. Draw and take notes with liquid pens, markers and brushes in your favorite Copic designer colors.Everything you draw in Concepts is a flexible vector, so you can move your notes around the canvas, or change their color, tool or size with a simple gesture. Drag and drop images onto the canvas, and use layers and grids to organize your creative space. When you're ready to share, export straight to your friends or team.SEARCH ”Concepts” in your favorite app store for infinite, flexible sketching.Learn more: Concepts AppRunning OrderIntro: Who is MarcMarc's origin storyWork that Marc is doing nowCreating Instagram CarouselsWhat does Marc do to keep sane in a pandemic?Spent time learning new thingsPlaying PickleballTools3 tipsOutroLinksMarc on InstagramMarc on LinkedInMarc on YouTubeWildstoryBaby got Backstory PodcastMichael Janda on the business of sketchnoting - SE09 / EP13PickelballMichael JohnsonToolsAmazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.Apple KeynoteTime TimerPost-It NotesNeuland OutlinersMarc's BuckslipsSony a73MiroNotionSuperhumaniPad ProApple PencilProcreateNotabilityTipsFocus on something you want to learn and focus on it.Reference books to learn.Get a new pen!CreditsProducer: Alec PulianasTheme music: Jon SchiedermayerSubscribe to the Sketchnote Army PodcastYou can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or your favorite podcast listening source.Support the PodcastTo support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde's bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off!

From the moment we wake up, to the moment we go to bed, we are influenced by branding. What shirt am I going to wear? What car do I drive? What deodorant, marketing firm, beer, and on and on. There's a lot of noise out there and standing out isn't easy. Starting his career in screenwriting with Academy Award winning director Oliver Stone, Marc Gutman blends storytelling, psychology, and design to help brands outmaneuver their competition. An entrepreneur, speaker, and Instagram social media influencer, Marc helps build brands that stand out and get you noticed. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome loyal listeners to another episode of The Loyalty Minute, I'm your host Rob Gallo and today I am excited to chat with Marc Gutman the founder of Wildstory. From the moment we wake up, to the moment we go to bed, we are influenced by branding. What shirt am I going to wear? What car do I drive? What deodorant to use, beer to drink, and on and on. There's a lot of noise out there and standing out isn't easy. Starting his career in screenwriting with Academy Award winning director Oliver Stone, Marc Gutman blends storytelling, psychology, and design to help brands outmaneuver their competition. An entrepreneur, speaker, and Instagram social media influencer, Marc helps build brands that stand out and get you noticed. Welcome to the show Marc, thanks for joining me... Reach out to Marc at goodstuff@wildstory.com --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/rob-gallo/message

Branding is way more than the marketing or the marketing team - it's establishing and helping people realize you're an authority. In today's episode of The Sales Evangelist, Donald is joined by branding expert Marc Gutman to learn why businesses that invest in branding win out over those that don't. Marc's branding journey started because of the power of storytelling: Marc worked in the movie business, working with award-winning director Oliver Stone. It was in this field where he learned what the power of storytelling could do for an organization. He moved to branding after moving to Colorado, where he discovered a fantastic community of startup entrepreneurs. Marc started his own business (which he ended up selling) and then started his branding agency, Wild Story. A brand has one job: Get people to buy more stuff for more years at a higher price.  There are two ways for an organization to increase its margins: lower costs or increase the price of goods or services.  To raise the price without reducing transactions, you must increase the product's perceived value so people are more willing to pay more. Everyone has a brand, even as an individual: Whether you like it or not, people want to know about you if they're going to work with you. And because people no longer work in the same career or organization their entire life,  you always need to be building a brand reputation for your future. There's only room for one person to be the cheapest in the market. For everyone else, there is branding to emphasize what you bring to the table. What can an organization do to develop a brand? Become a thought leader and make content. Whether that's video, podcasts, or blogs, pick a medium that you like and start creating! A brand is not your logo, tagline, or website. It's the words and underlying DNA behind your organization. People have a gut feeling about your products and service, and you influence that through your words. A brand should become repetitive to you internally, but it should never feel repetitive externally.  Check him out on Instagram, LinkedIn, and visit his website at wildstory.com. This episode is brought to you in part by Skipio. Are you sick of crickets? As a salesperson, the pain of reaching out with phone calls or emails and not receiving a response is real. But all text messaging is not created equal. 85% of people prefer text over email and phone calls because they want to engage in a conversation, not listen to bots. Be more like people and start having conversations that end in the conversions you want. Try Skipio at www.Skipio.com. This course is brought to you in part by the TSE Sales Certified Training Program, designed to help new and struggling sellers master sales fundamentals and close more deals. Help elevate your sales game and sign up now to get the first two modules free! You can visit www.thesalesevangelist.com/closemoredeals or call (561) 570-5077 for more information. We value your opinion and always want to improve the quality of our show. Complete our two-minute survey here: thesalesevangelist.com/survey. We'd love for you to join us for our next episodes by tuning in on Apple Podcast, Stitcher, or Spotify. You can also leave comments, suggestions, and ratings for each episode you listen to!  Read more about sales or listen to audiobooks on Audible and explore their huge online library. Register now to get a free book and a 30-day trial. Audio provided by Free SFX and Bensound. Other songs used in the episodes are as follows: The Organ Grinder written by Bradley Jay Hill, performed by Bright Seed, and Produced by Brightseed and Hill.

Branding is one of those concepts that as business leaders and marketers we understand is a thing, and we get that it's important, but have you really ever thought about how to define what branding actually is? A quick google search will turn up a massive variety of definitions from design functions, to emotive responses and other more intangible ideas of what branding means. So to dive deeper into this idea, and in particular to explore the role of video in the world of branding I'm excited to introduce you to my guest today, a brand strategist from Boulder, Colorado with an interesting history in the film industry. Marc Gutman is a storyteller, entrepreneur, adventurer, and idealist. But most  importantly, Marc loves brands and their stories. Marc held several positions in the story business. He served as Story Editor for Oliver Stone's Illusion Entertainment, and wrote stories and screenplays for Oliver Stone, Warner Bros., and 20th Century Fox.  In addition to his time in Hollywood, Marc itched the entrepreneurial scratch by founding a multimillion dollar tech company in Boulder, Colorado. Today, Marc focuses his energy on Wildstory, the brand strategy studio for brands that want to outmaneuver their competition. Wildstory has worked with brands like Thor Industries, Airstream, El Cap, Planet Granite, Earth Treks, Movement, Inboard, Outward Bound School, and First Descents. Marc is on a mission to help the world après… one brand at a time. He is also the host of the Baby Got Backstory podcast; delving into the story behind great brands such as Priceline.com, Patagonia, Ugg, Build-A-Bear Workshop and Kswiss.  Support this podcast

Marc Gutman is the founder of Wildstory, a company that helps businesses create authentic stories by generating buyers and brand loyalty. They help solve big business problems and create a plan for long-term success by considering everything from story, strategy, culture brand, and content equally. Starting out in the film industry, Marc moved on to working as an entrepreneur but realized his inner drive to work as a writer. Through his business, Marc was able to combine his two interests allowing him to build success while also following his passions. Sharon speaks with Marc about his career path from driving film around Los Angeles to the accomplished person that he is today. We speak about how to find a path that fits your interests, as well as build a business plan that will prepare both you and your company for the utmost success. Marc dives into the importance of brand image and the way that your company presents itself to the world, as well as the value of relevancy and staying modernized rather than letting your company get caught in the past. We speak about what it means to build a better business not only for the money in your pockets but for the health and growth of the larger world and environment that surrounds us. What You Will Learn 7 rules that every brand should follow Importance of being at the forefront of advancement How to find your desired career path Value of relevancy Techniques to build a better business

Are you struggling to differentiate from your competition? Do you find it challenging to hold margins? Maybe the key is telling your story more effectively. That's what today's guest, Marc Gutman believes. He's the host of the Baby Got Backstory podcast and the founder of Wildstory, a brand strategy studio for companies that want to outmaneuver their competition. Starting his career in screenwriting with Academy Award-winning director Oliver Stone, Marc now helps companies drive results by blending storytelling, psychology, and design to help brands outmaneuver their competition. In this episode, we discuss how the story creates a competitive advantage. Marc shares practical ways you can use your story. He also provides some tools on his website: www.wildstory.com.Make sure to register for the 2021 Trust Building Challenge: www.2021trustchallenge.com. A special thanks to this episode's sponsor, Selling From the Heart. If you have a sales team and you want to boost results, you need to get to know Selling From the Heart. What's great about Selling From the Heart is how it takes a different approach to drive sales. The goal is to build trust quickly with clients and prospects through authenticity. The result is more effective prospecting, higher close rates, and more referrals. Best of all, the Selling From the Heart methodology works with your existing sales model. To learn more, visit www.sellingfromtheheart.net and make sure to listen to me and my co-host Larry Levine each week on the Selling From the Heart Podcast!

Brand yourself, your business, your cattle! I am sure you have heard how important branding is for business but really getting a grasp on what branding actually means beyond a logo or merch is important. That's why I was thrilled to have Marc on the show.  Marc Gutman is a storyteller, entrepreneur, adventurer, and idealist. But most importantly, Marc loves brands and their stories. Marc held several positions in the story business. He served as Story Editor for Oliver Stone's Illusion Entertainment, and wrote stories and screenplays for Oliver Stone, Warner Bros., and 20th Century Fox. In addition to his time in Hollywood, Marc itched the entrepreneurial scratch by founding a multimillion dollar tech company in Boulder, Colorado. Today, Marc focuses his energy on Wildstory, the brand strategy studio for brands that want to outmaneuver their competition. Wildstory has worked with brands like Thor Industries, Airstream, El Cap, Planet Granite, Earth Treks, Movement, Inboard, Outward Bound School, and First Descents. Marc is on a mission to help the world après… one brand at a time. Marc lives outside of Boulder, CO with his saintly wife and three dirty kids.

Today the Biz Bros chat with Marc about the dirty content secret no one is telling you. From the moment we wake up, to the moment we go to bed, we are influence by branding. What shirt am I going to wear? What car do I drive? What deodorant, marketing firm, beer, and on and on. There's a lot of noise out there and standing out isn't easy. Starting his career in screenwriting with Academy Award winning director Oliver Stone, Marc Gutman blends storytelling, psychology, and design to help brands outmaneuver their competition. An entrepreneur, speaker, and Instagram social media influencer, Marc helps build brands that stand out and get you noticed. To learn more, check out: https://www.wildstory.com/

From the moment we wake up, to the moment we go to bed, we are influenced by branding. What shirt am I going to wear? What car do I drive? What deodorant, marketing firm, beer, and on and on. There's a lot of noise out there and standing out isn't easy. Starting his career in screenwriting with Academy Award winning director Oliver Stone, Marc Gutman blends storytelling, psychology, and design to help brands outmaneuver their competition. An entrepreneur, speaker, and Instagram social media influencer, Marc helps build brands that stand out and get you noticed.Connect with Marchttps://www.wildstory.com/https://www.facebook.com/wildstorymedia/https://www.instagram.com/marcgutman/https://www.youtube.com/c/WildStoryMediahttps://www.linkedin.com/in/marcgutman/Connect with Russhttps://russjohns.com/https://thepiratesyndicate.com/https://nextstepnext.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/nextstepnext/Live Stream Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bz-HjcE5oQPlease don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTz6TElo52gMGBrikwfj07A

Mike welcomes storyteller, adventurer, and idealist, Marc Gutman! A career that started with screenwriting with Academy Award-winning director Oliver Stone to now helping brands outmaneuver their competition. This entrepreneur, speaker, and Instagram social media influencer is all about helping brands stand out and get noticed! Highlights Prioritizing marketing efforts - 1:24 Brand vs. Marketing - 2:17 We need to slow down and ask more questions - 6:52 Sometimes it's hard to know what a brand is - 8:14 The investment process - 13:17 The idea of investing in our brand - 15:38 Building your brand - 18:25 Marc's journey - 23:50 Brand means business - 27:50   Episode Resources Connect with Mike Brevik: http://www.cyberdogzmarketing.com/ mike@cyberdogzmarketing.com Connect with Marc Gutman: https://www.wildstory.com/ 

BGBS 073: Lauren Gropper | Repurpose | It's More About the Mission Lauren Gropper is the founder and CEO of Repurpose, the leader in plant-based tableware. An eco-entrepreneur and green architecture pioneer, Lauren began her career in sustainable design.  Her early success led to a surprising career in Hollywood, working as a consultant to the industry with customers like Discovery Networks.  Confronted with the waste generated by craft services, Lauren had an aha moment on-set. She founded Repurpose to extend the disposable lifespan of single use products and reduce waste.  Today, Lauren leads Repurpose on its quest to change the world one low-impact cup, plate and fork at a time. In this episode, you'll learn… Repurpose products not only replace plastic, but also use around 70% less water and 65% less CO2 to make them. Now, about 70% of the product line is compostable as well. Before Repurpose, Lauren worked in LA to make sustainable set designs in film and TV. She noticed that the set would be sustainable but people still needed to use disposable plastic all day, which first led her to question how to tackle this issue. Use the code Repurpose20 when checking out at repurpose.com to get a 20% discount on any Repurpose product. Quotes [10:28] When you study sustainability and materials, I think you're just obsessed with how things are made and how they're disposed of. And so to me, it was like this design challenge, like, we still need to use these disposable products, so how do we make them more sustainable? [11:00] Why are we using petroleum, oil from the ground, which is a finite resource and dirty and full of chemicals to make a product that we use for five minutes and then throw away, but then it lasts forever in the environment? That just makes zero sense. There has to be a better way. [36:15] It is about the product, but it's so much more about the mission. And you know, that's what gets me excited is just kind of like, well, how much how much waste are we diverting? What are we doing to get rid of plastic and actually educate people and get people to change their ways? Resources Repurpose.com Facebook: @repurpose Twitter: @repurpose Pinterest: @repurposetableware Instagram: @repurpose Have a Brand Problem? We can help. Book your no-obligation, 15-minute Wildstory Brand Clarity Call now. Learn about our Brand Audit and Strategy process Identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh Determine if your business has a branding problem See examples of our work and get relevant case studies See if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level Book Your FREE Brand Clarity Call Podcast Transcript Lauren Gropper  0:02  We absolutely are trying to do the right thing. We come from a sustainability background like we are working our butts off to make the best product available. And to give people an opportunity to use a disposable product that replaces plastic and No, it can't always be composted everywhere, but it's still significantly more sustainable than a plastic alternative. And I think people are so quick to point a finger to be like, well, if I can't, if I can't compost it, then what's the point of even having it and the fact is, you're still using 70% less water to make the product 65% less co2 to make it like the carbon footprint is significantly less. So I think people will just pick it apart and tear it apart. And it's like, well, you're sitting on your couch picking this apart and we're I'm like literally working my butt off to try and get the most sustainable option into your home.   Marc Gutman  0:56  Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory. I hope you're enjoying the summer barbecues, cocktail parties and dinner parties and all the plastic cups and forks you're throwing into landfills. Well, don't you worry. Today we're talking to a founder and CEO who solved that problem with plants. That's right, plants instead of plastic. And before we get into this episode, I want to welcome you back to another summer episode of Baby Got Back story. These episodes are recorded in boardshorts. Instead of our normal studio in Colorado, a shared room in my family summer cottage in Michigan. When I'm not recording, the room is occupied by one of my young nieces in the crib that you can see if you're watching on video. Hey, we're in the mid zone of summer, you're happy. You're feeling Spry, you're on vacation, or you can't get work done because everyone you work with is on vacation when you're not. Let's be honest, you don't have much to do. So here's one thing to fill your schedule, head over to Apple or Spotify and give us a five star rating and review. Ratings really do matter. Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts, even during the summer, especially during the summer. Oh, and we like likes and follows and ratings and all that too. So thank you for your reviews. I really do appreciate it. Today's guest is Lauren Gropper, CEO and founder of Repurpose the leader in plant based tableware. an eco entrepreneur in green architecture pioneer, Lauren began her career in sustainable design. Her early success led to a surprising career in Hollywood, working as a consultant to the industry with customers like discovery networks. confronted with the waste generated by craft services, Lauren had an aha moment onset, she founded Repurpose to extend the disposable lifespan of single use products and reduce waste. Today Lauren leads Repurpose on its quest to change the world. One low impact cup plate and fork at a time in this is her story.   I am here with Lauren Gropper, founder and CEO of Repurpose, Lauren. Welcome to the Baby Got Back story podcast summer edition. We're both having some summer sort of things in the background. So you might have a little bit of construction. I have a baby crib for those of you that are watching the video. Welcome to the show. Thanks Mark. And I actually have that same ball that I see in your background. Yes, it says my back it's for when I'm when I'm doing serious work and what would I do without a yoga ball? Definitely not yo can tell you that. But thanks again for coming on the show. Lauren. Once you tell us a little bit about Repurpose. What is Repurpose?   Lauren Gropper  4:26  So Repurpose is a brand that makes plant based compostable alternatives to everyday disposable plastic. Essentially, we're trying to get rid of plastic with more sustainable alternatives.   Marc Gutman  4:38  Yeah. And so is this something that is you know, help us educate some of the listeners out there those that may or may not be familiar with this type of of cutlery if you will, in plates and things like that. Is this common or do we see this a lot or is this a pretty new idea?   Lauren Gropper  4:59  I think this is Pretty common now, actually, we've been We've been in business for just over 10 years, which is kind of crazy. But yes, we are, we are everywhere. So you can find us, everywhere in the US and most grocery stores from your local natural food store to your Walmart, and kind of everything in between. So we are very widely available out there in the world that of course on Amazon and our website, repurpose.com. You can find us everywhere, everywhere.   Marc Gutman  5:29  And so, you know, I know a bit of your story takes place in Southern California. Is that where you grew up? Or did you grew up someplace differently? No, I'm I'm Canadian. I grew up in Vancouver, Canada. All right. Well, hey there for Canadian friends out there to the north. I am a big fan of Canada's you know, if you listen to the podcast, I grew up in Detroit. So we you know, it's kind of our cousin, or sibling, just to the south. Actually. That's a question that every grandparent will ask you. What's the first foreign country you come to when you go south from Detroit? And it's actually Brooks thunder, but I digress a little bit. And so when you were growing up in Vancouver, is a younger girls, young lady, Was this something that you were like, concerned about? Were you concerned about? plastics and thinking, even at that time of how do I how do I solve this problem?   Lauren Gropper  6:28  No. I mean, I grew up very much interested in environmental issues. I, you know, I think growing up in Canada, you have a lot of access to nature. And my parents weren't particularly outdoorsy at all. But through school, we got to do bunch of trips. And I ended up doing actually a program in high school, where do you spend six months of the year for not six months, but half the year doing outdoor education and you're not in the classroom, your snow campaign, you're rock climbing, you're kayaking, you're doing big back country hiking trips. And that's kind of the education then you cram the rest into the other part of the year. It's called Trek. And I think I mean, I did it when I was 15, super formative time, and just became really interested in environmental issues in the outdoors. I think at one point, I thought I was gonna be like a, you know, a back country guide. That was that was a trade early on. But yeah, I think that's what really kind of created the the passion about all things environmental. And I went on to study that in college. And so I just sort of like kept building and building but it was always my interest from not always but you know, from young high school age. I had no idea about plastic or what was wrong with plastic, but the environment was kind of the thing for me sustainability. Yeah. And so   Marc Gutman  7:53  if that was the dream to be a back country guide to be in the sustainability business, is that what happened after you left school?   Lauren Gropper  8:01  No, I know, I, that was sort of the early dream. And I just didn't really know where I wanted to be. I studied geography, environmental studies, I ended up doing a lot of international travel after college. So I spent a significant amount of time and in Costa Rica, it was like a Canadian Peace Corps program I did. And that was incredible. And then spent some time in Southeast Asia. And just really, I wanted to do something, I think internationally and something in sustainability. But it's hard to find a career in that. Or at least I couldn't at the time. But in my travels, got really interested in design and architecture. And then like urban planning, and cities and design, and I found a program in New York, that basically was the study of stainable design and green building. And that was a project in New York. So I went and met with them and became really interested in the program. And so I ended up studying there. And my career was was on on track to be in this sustainable building sustainable design world. And I was obsessed with it. So that was my that was my dream. And that was my early career.   Marc Gutman  9:11  No, yeah. And that was your early career. But then what happened? How did you get involved in this idea for Repurpose?   Lauren Gropper  9:21  So I was doing green building work mostly in in New York and a little bit in Toronto. And through that, I had kind of like dabbled in television production. So I had hosted a show very early on and on HGTV in Toronto. And that got me kind of interested in just the whole film intelligence side of things and opened my eyes to kind of set building and set design and in that world, and I randomly had an opportunity to come to LA to do sustainable design for sets. And I thought, that sounds really cool. I'd love to do that. I'd love to sort of like take what I've learned From the building world, and bring it to film and TV. And so came out to LA this just now probably 12 years ago, 13 years ago, maybe, and started working on on sets and set design and making them more sustainable. And lo and behold, you make a set really sustainable, but you still need to use disposable plastic all day. That's where I was like, Ooh, there's got to be a solution for this too. And, you know, when you study sustainability and materials, I think you're just obsessed with how things are made and how they're disposed of. And so to me, it was like this design challenge, like, how can we still need to use these disposable products? So how, how do we make them more sustainable? At the time, I really wasn't thinking in kind of like, how do we, how do we shake up this model? And maybe move to like a reusable model? I actually didn't have that kind of foresight. But at the time, I was like, how can we just look at the materials we're using? As in? Why are we using petroleum? Well, from the ground, which is a finite resource, and dirty and full of chemicals to make a product that we use for five minutes and then throw away, but then it lasts forever in the environment, like that just makes zero sense. So I just there has, there has to be a better way. And of course, there is and there was, and that was to use plant based plastic, it's plant based chemistry, essentially. And the technology was just in its infancy back then. But it seemed to me like this is going to be huge, this is going to be the future. And we can't be using this old stuff anymore. I just, I sort of viewed it the way that I had seen kind of the the green building space really blossom. Like in the early days, everything was kind of clunky and really expensive and didn't work as well. But then it sort of as it gained momentum. And as demand increased for new building technologies and materials, the industry matured and the price came down and trails got better. And I thought that sort of same trajectory could be applied to this plastic disposable plastic space. And I was really interested in creating a brand, kind of, you know, being the Kleenex of compostable plant based products. And so I just figured, you know what, I am young enough. If this all blows up in my face, I can go back to doing what I was doing before, which I loved anyway. And why not go for it? It seemed like there was just like a right place, right time kind of opportunity. And what do I have to lose was kind of the thought I didn't have any idea what I was getting into though. Like it's that typical entrepreneurial naivete where you're like, Oh, of course, I can do it. But had no idea kind of the challenges that lay ahead.   Marc Gutman  12:46  Yeah, totally. And you make it sound so easy. And like, let's take a step back. Because here you are, you're doing sustainable set design. You know, I come up literally with 100 ideas a day that are all amazing, I execute none of them, you know? And so like, and I get even like, I mean, I can't tell you how many times I hang out with people that are very angry about sustainable issues. Hey, why are we Why are we using this silverware? And when it could be you know, for five minutes and it goes back to the ground? Why are we doing this? Why are we doing that? But the reality is, not many people take action, right? And I have to imagine so if you could take us back a little bit take us back to like that moment. And okay, your your pod, you're like you're angry about plastic, but you have a day job to like what like, like, like, how did you actually like, like, figure like, maybe there's something here? Maybe there's even a business? I mean, like, like, how did that all come about?   Lauren Gropper  13:48  Really, it was that there was just an incredible kind of confluence of factors all happening at the same time, that sort of felt like, Okay, I have to act on this, because all of these things are coming together without me trying that hard. There was a supplier relationship through a connection that we had that was just sort of fell in our lap, and one of our early partners, Brian Chung, who had this family relationship to one of the biggest producers of these products in the world. And so that kind of felt like, well, that's super unique, and we have this unique access. And then I think being in LA and the proximity to the sets and then sort of the Hollywood aspect and celebrity influencers etc. It kind of felt like we can if we're trying to build a brand and this was before like real influencers, you know, but it was like, Okay, we have access to some celebrities and and we can get on TV and we can do product placement really easily. So in the early days, we were getting our product on like all these different shows, which is really great. And it was just like all these factors, we felt like this gives us a unique leg up and let's give it a shot. Like, we've got the supply relationship, we've got a place to put this stuff with all the elements are kind of in place. They weren't all in place, but we thought they were like, I mean, I had the limited knowledge we had of how do you start a company? You know, we had some of the basic building blocks. And so it sort of felt like, Well, you know, this is all here, let's, let's give it a shot. It just kind of felt like we can start small scale. And if we get some traction, great, and if not, like we haven't, you know, I'm keeping my day job. Yeah, who   Marc Gutman  15:31  was that first customer like, like, how did you even like solve this or like, actually transact for something like revenue.   Lauren Gropper  15:39  Our first customer was, we were doing some stuff on on sets, but it was such small potatoes and like catering, you know, like, it was like a small catering kind of company. And then we were doing some PR around kind of the company and it caught the Bed, Bath and Beyond. And you're the president of Bed, Bath and Beyond. And they wanted our product, they want to try it. And we were like, Oh my god, jackpot, even though whatever it was the tiny Po, but we really felt like, Oh, this is something. And that, you know, I think just having like that 100% like, wide eyed super cane attitude and like, no knowledge of what it really was going, like, we were just so enthusiastic and thought we'd you know, any little when it was like the biggest win for us. And we didn't really have a sense of kind of, you know, what is what what a real business entails, and kind of like, what those mechanics are. And so we were just thrilled to be selling our products, you know, like, wow, this company switch from plastic, like, it was just this, like youthful name tags. And, and very kind of altruistic, genuine, you know, we're really trying to change something here. And it's kind of working. Looking back, we were like, way too early. Like, there was zero mass, you know, awareness or adoption. But, you know, those little wins, like meant everything to us. And we were like, Yeah, let's do it. We just were just so gung ho on, you know, having a product that we designed and was out there in the world, like that was just so cool to us.   Marc Gutman  17:31  A common question I get all the time is Mark, can you help me with our brand? Yes, we help companies solve branding problems. And the first step would be to schedule a no obligation brand clarity call, we'll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email, we'll get you booked right away. So whether you're just getting started with a new business, or whether you've done some work and need a refresh, for whether you're a brand that's high performing and wants to stay there, we can help. After you book, your brand clarity call, you'll learn about our brand audit and strategy process will identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh, will determine if your business has a branding problem. And you'll see examples of our work and get relevant case studies. We'll also see if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level. So what are you waiting for? Build the brand you've always dreamed of. Again, we'll link to that in the show notes or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email. Now back to the show.   Yeah, and so what was that early product like like, you know, talked a lot. And it was it like fully baked and like did it come back the way you wanted. I talked to a lot of entrepreneurs, you get their first prototype, and they're like, Oh, this is not it. You know,   Lauren Gropper  19:02  we have just we had started actually in the cup business. So we weren't making cutlery or plates or you know, in a trash bag or anything we're making today. But we had a cup that was like to replace kind of like a plastic cup for cold drinks. And so we had a cold cup and then we had this hot cup that was very unique. It was made from all plant based materials. And it felt like this kind of like velvet, felt like velvet on the outside, which acted kind of like an insulation barrier and you didn't need a sleeve. And it just had this amazing feel. And then we had our logo and all like the plant based info was our old brand but old branding look and feel same Repurpose brand, but just different, different kind of look and feel but just have this amazing feel. And anyone that had in their hands was like What is this? This is so cool. Oh, and it's plant based and lid was also plant based. So the whole thing was compostable. It was like we went all these awards for like most Innovative cup, blah, blah, blah. And that was our super cool entry product. But it's actually the factory since shutdown. So that product is no longer but it was an awesome product when we launched it.   Marc Gutman  20:16  And when you started the business, What did it look like in terms of the organization? It was you and and how many people?   Lauren Gropper  20:23  Yeah, it was myself, I had the original original co founder who actually left the business after about a year. So him, Brian Chung, who is our supply partner, and we produced in Taiwan. So he was the, he's Taiwanese American, but it was his family. And then Cory, co founder, who was really came in from the PR and marketing side, and did all of our early kind of PR and marketing and actually sales as well. So that was the core team. And then in Jordan, to who's one of our co founders. He was a very early investor and who came on actually as our CEO, and co founder. So his tiny team, our first employer is still with us today. Her name is Sarah harden, she was our initially kind of like our office manager. And now she's our, basically our controller slash, you know, how to finance and is amazing. So yeah, it was tiny, tiny literally was out of a living room. Now,   Marc Gutman  21:21  and you mentioned that you're everywhere today, what's the organization look like today, now that you've grown 1012 years later,   Lauren Gropper  21:28  we're still small, we're about 25. Full time, we probably got another 10 or so part time. And then we've got probably, that in the 50 to 100, kind of boots on the ground wraps. And that doesn't include any, like our warehousing is outsourced our, our supplier partners, I mean, if you count all them, it's in the hundreds. But core team like head office is 25. Yeah,   Marc Gutman  21:54  and so like, what's hard about plant based silverware and cups in in this business? Like, what's, what's hard about it?   Unknown Speaker  22:04  Everything. I think it's it's been a real challenge on a number of fronts, I think what's always been a challenge is kind of staying ahead of the sustainability curve. So the technology's changing it up, but every couple of years, it changes. And so number one, you have to stay ahead of those changes. And sometimes those changes are more expensive, sometimes those changes are really difficult to produce. Sometimes those changes aren't feasible or can't happen all at once. And so you're constantly having to manage for a change in your, in your product. It's not just like, okay, mass produced, mass produced, keep going, you're constantly iterating and constantly changing. And that's a huge kind of operational challenge in itself. And then also, from a messaging point of view, like you're changing your ingredients, you're making them more sustainable, which is which is great. I mean, it was one of the methods, that's a positive, but it is hard, and then how do you manage the kind of economics of it? That's, that's hard. I think the early days of fundraising were very challenging. We had you know, we were in a new industry, we're trying to disrupt a humungous, you know, well established industry and category with a little tiny team with the dream like it was, we didn't have a lot of, I'd say institutional investors that really believe we could pull it off. So, you know, raising money was tough. You know, hiring the right people, everything about it. Everything is is it's the most challenging thing I've ever done by a mile by a million miles. Just it's super fun, because it is I like challenging things. I like being challenged. But sometimes I wish there was a bit of a break. I mean, it just is kind of relentless. You kind of you handle one area, and then another one was that and then you handle that, then you're you know, it's just, I'm sure you hear this from every every entrepreneur, it's like juggling the plates.   Unknown Speaker  24:12  A lot of juggling.   Marc Gutman  24:14  A lot of juggling. So that's that's what's hard about it, like what do people get wrong? Right, like, what do you what do you want people to know? What do people miss understand about your space and your product?   Lauren Gropper  24:27  I think with any sustainability business, there's so much kind of like, I don't know, there's there's a lot of greenwash out there from companies sort of claiming to do the right thing and not and so you're held to a higher standard, you have to be more accountable. And people will pick apart every little thing that you do. And I think what I would want people to know is that all of us come from this, at least in our company, we come from a real place of we absolutely try and do the right thing. We come from sustainability. backround like we are working our butts off to make the best product available. And to give people an opportunity to use a disposable product that replaces plastic and No, it can't always be composted everywhere, but it's still significantly more sustainable than a plastic alternative. And I think people are so quick to point a finger to be like, well, if I can't, if I can't compost it, then what's the point of even having it and the fact is, you're still using 70% less water to make the product 65% less co2 to make it like the carbon footprint is significantly less. So I think people will just pick it apart and tear it apart. It's like, well, you're sitting on your couch, picking this apart, and we're I'm like, literally working my butt off to try and get the most sustainable option into your home. So relax.   It's like, Oh, God, we're trying, you only knew like the blood, sweat and tears that are going into this from a very altruistic place. Like, very annoying when, when people don't get that.   Marc Gutman  26:04  No, it's great. And the idea that, look, this isn't like black and white, we need to get there over time. And we don't always have the technology, but like using the technology we do have is infinitely better than not using it. And so I think that you know, whether it is, yeah, whether it's plant based utensils, or anything else for that matter. I mean, this happens in a lot of different industries. It's like we kind of use the the technology we have at the time, and we got to we got to build on it. And so I could see how that could be a real challenge. You know, you mentioned branding, a lot brand building, like what role does this mean, the the idea of brand strategy and brand building play in your business? How important is that to your business?   Lauren Gropper  26:45  It's interesting, it's, it's, we're in a very unique category. Because at these, it's sort of a big question for us Do people really care about the brain that they're getting their their plates and forks and comes from, or they just want it to be sustainable, and they don't really care what the brand is, I think there are people that don't really care, they just want to know that it's sustainable. But I think there's a growing number, especially the younger generation, like Gen Z and millennial that do care, that really, really care about who they're buying these products from, and they want to know who this company is like they don't want to be buying, you know, from a company that makes plastic out of one hand, and then they've got you know, a line of compost and a lot of the other side of their business, I think they want to know that they're supporting an authentic company that is really doing the right thing. So for us, it's really important to continue to tell our story, and talk about what we're doing and why we're doing it and be really transparent and engage with our community. And I think it's more and more important, especially as kind of the people are buying more online and can really kind of dig into like, who the companies are, it's not just about convenience, like, Okay, this one's on the shelf. So I'll just put in my basket, like they're actually they're on Amazon, or they're on our site, or wherever they are, they can access in an instant, like, Who is this company? And, you know, why am I buying it. But we are in a category, I will say where it's price sensitive, you know, price plays a big factor. So we always have to keep that in mind. Like we have to be price competitive, but at the same time offer kind of like that, that brand. And that authentic experience, and sometimes that you know, those, those are difficult things to Mary. But that's our challenge. That's what we're trying to do.   Marc Gutman  28:40  Yeah, I mean, and I think that this is a really interesting topic when it comes to branding, because a lot of people think, you know, the, the old, the old definition was your logo and your identity. And I think most people have, a lot of people have evolved past that. And I understand it's the, the underlying ethos of what you do. It's how you act, it's how you behave, it's how you communicate. But at the end of the day, a brand, which is a business most often, typically needs to make money. And so like how do you marry those two, right? Like, because you can't, you have to service that and you can't ignore that. And you can't say that, well, I'm just gonna do all this stuff. I've heard of those discussions happen in your business.   Lauren Gropper  29:24  It's a constant. It's a constant discussion. It's a constant challenge of sort of like, cuz you can put all your budget into marketing and branding. I mean, for us, what we do feel that we need to do and need to do more of is build awareness. I think a lot of people have no idea that we exist. Or if they do, they just kind of notice in general as a category, they don't know that we're a particular brand. They don't know about the technology necessarily. They don't know anything about composting, they don't know that even plant base, alternative to plastic could exist. I think more so now. But when we first started, that was like we had to educate people on what the product even was, and why should even exist. Now, it's different people are really interested, they're looking for it. So we need to be out there presenting ourselves saying, Here we are, please, you know, take a look at us. So for us, it's about, you know, and you can track, you can track ROI in marketing efforts now. So, you know, of course, you need to make money, but you can understand kind of what's working and what's not. And so we just do more of what's working unless of what's not, but there is kind of that top of funnel awareness play, that you can always trace to ROI that you still need to do, because people need to know who we are looking at, when they when they know about us. And in general, we find that they buy us because we're not we're not a niche product, we're not priced significantly more like we're priced competitively. We offer a better product. I mean, there's all the reasons to buy. So it's just you have to know that we exist.   Marc Gutman  31:12  Yeah, and it makes me think about like, back to even when you started this and probably the the competitive fight that you're in today. I mean, there are you kind of alluded to this, I mean, there's some multinational global conglomerates that are in this space, like, yeah, like like, like, hey, what made you think that you could take them on I love that you're like, I'm just gonna take on the biggest companies in the world and with the biggest distribution networks and whatever else they have, and be what's that like today? Like, like, how do you outmaneuver them from a competitive standpoint, and keep keep them on their toes, we had   Lauren Gropper  31:47  sort of looked at the CPG space as a whole and just kind of like these better for you organic brands, and more in food and beverage, and I guess cleaning as well as examples. Like we had seen all these tiny little brands when we started take on these huge players. And when, like, we were looking at like method cleaning and Mrs. Myers and these are like they're taking on tide. I mean, they're just, and they were they weren't doing well. And so it felt like there was an appetite at least there was an appetite in other areas like organic food was already taking off all the organic, better few baby food, toys, you know, cleaning products, personal care, beauty, all these things were kind of changing when we came in. And we sort of felt like, well, then why in this category is everything still so old school, like nothing has changed in 50 years. Everything looks exactly the same. And I think it's just like, because there was no distribute, like, people didn't know that there could be an alternative. So I think we figured let's just, you know, this market is gigantic. And yes, it is controlled by these large multinationals. But there's room there's room for a challenger brand like us. And so that's I guess we just had kind of the balls to, to go after it. Of course, it's still a challenge. Like they can win on it. They've got the distribution, they've got the marketing dollars, they've got the muscle. But it all comes down to what does the consumer want to they want the green product from the green, authentic brand? That's woman owned and women land and has a diverse team, or do they want the green product from the big plastic company. And what we're seeing this in in these early days is they want the green product from the green company. You know, and so that's when you go back to the brand piece, like we have to tell our story. And we have to make people aware of who we are because when they know who we are, they will choose us over the big bad plastic company. Not everybody. But a growing number of people. Well, yeah.   Marc Gutman  34:03  Like what are you most excited about? As you look towards the future with Repurpose,   Lauren Gropper  34:10  we are just dipping our toes into e commerce and kind of B to C and really building brand in a way that we haven't before. And I am super excited to get that going and get that started. We're launching a bunch of new products. So now our products are about 70% of our line is home compostable, which means it will break down in the backyard environment in less than a year. Which is amazing from a sustainability standpoint. We'd like to get that 200% and we're getting closer and the tech and technology is changing to get us there. So we're on top of that and we're very ahead of that which is so exciting. And I think it's only going to improve more. So from a sustainability standpoint, super excited about kind of where things are going with our products, we have a whole new line coming out. So we're launching with bamboo toilet paper that's FSC certified, so it's sustainably grown bamboo, bamboo toilet paper, bamboo paper towel. We're doing sandwich bags that are home compostable claim wrap. We have a big launch coming out next year, which I can't say yet, but it's an alternative to the party red cup. So a lot of really cool items that I think just make kind of convenience more sustainable. And going back to our conversation earlier, like, we totally are all about, use reusable items first, like, do as much as you can reusable, but there are always instances where you need to use a disposable product, and it should be something as sustainable as possible. By Repurpose.   Marc Gutman  35:53  Did you ever think prior to starting this business that you'd be Geeking? out on clean rap? Oh, my God, plastic? Toilet paper? paper towel?   Lauren Gropper  36:02  No, it's like, see, that's what it's so funny. Because I have relatives that are like, Oh my god, she makes plates and cups and like, how's the dish were going? And it's so much less about the actual I mean, it is about the product, but it's so much more about the mission. And you know, that's what gets me excited is just kind of like, well, how much how much waste? Are we diverting? What are we doing to get rid of plastic and actually educate people and get people to change their ways? So funny because yeah, it's always like, well, do I really geek out? I do geek out on plates now. But it's funny anytime I look at a cup. I'm like looking at this and like looking at the you know, what is the main? But yeah, it's it's all about the whys.   Marc Gutman  36:45  Well and as we come to the end of our time here. I'd like to think back to young Lauren on that six month outdoor ed program backpacking around high ideals and what do you think she'd say if she saw where you are today?   Lauren Gropper  37:01  What would little Lauren say? I think she'd be pretty proud. I think she'd be happy.   Marc Gutman  37:13  And that is Lauren Gropper, CEO and founder of Repurpose. A big thank you to Lauren and the team at Repurpose, we will link to all things Lauren and Repurpose in the shownotes. We even have a special promo code of Repurpose20 for anyone that would like a 20% discount on any Repurpose products. If you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast@wildstory .com. Our best guests like Lauren come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that's the show. keep enjoying your summer. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www dot wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS see you'll never miss an episode a lot big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can't deny

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Episode: 201, Podcast Interview with Marc Gutman from WildStoryMarc Gutman is the founder and chief strategist at Wildstory - a brand strategy and design studio in Colorado. Marc is on a mission to help brands be brilliant.Connect with Marc at: www.wildstory.com Check out Marc's good stuff at: https://www.wildstory.com/goodstuff/Connect with Marc on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marcgutman/Key podcast notes:What the movie business can teach us about Personal Branding and Story TellingPersonal Branding VS Corporate BrandingWhy Personal Branding is so Powerful - Brand or be Branded!How Social Media can blow up your Personal BrandWhich Social Media channels are the best for youThe hottest tips for creating content for your Personal BrandHow Branding has changed over the last 10 yearsThe hottest Personal Brand trends in the years aheadListen to the latest tips, tools, and strategies for Business, Success, and Marketing... on the Cam Roberts Podcast Show.Search for "Cam Roberts Podcast Show" on the web, Itunes Podcasts or Spotify.====If you are ready to get going then let's get working!Here are three ways to get started with Cam Roberts and his team...1. Get instant access to my latest eBook "5 Steps To Making Big Money With Your Brand which includes a 5-Day course on winning High Ticket clients on autopilot.Grab it here: https://camroberts.com.au/big-money-personal-branding-ebook/2. Watch my on-demand 20-minute Tutorial on Personal Branding That Gets You Paid What You Are Worth.Grab it here: https://camroberts.com.au/tutorial/3. Apply to work with me and my Ninja Marketing team directly by booking a complimentary strategy session with me (via Zoom Meetings).Apply here: https://camroberts.com.au/apply-now/=============================

BGBS 072: Chad Hutson | Leviathan | The Business of CreativityAs Leviathan's co-founder and CEO, Chad facilitates creative strategy and all key business developments for the specialized creative agency, including managing the company's overall operations. His efforts have led to client relationships with Nike, Disney, Amazon, T-Mobile, Kohler, Universal, McDonald's, and Airbus among others.   Chad previously co-founded the digital creative agency eatdrink in 2002, which merged with Leviathan in 2012. Over the years, that firm produced breakthrough broadcast and interactive work for an amazing roster of brands and agencies. His prior experience includes highly productive stints with experiential marketing firm MC2 as an entertainment and technology project manager, and with leading Hollywood post-production sound company Soundelux as operations manager.   A native of the Southeastern United States, Chad earned his Bachelors of Recording Industry Management at MTSU. A past presenter at multiple SXSW conferences, Chad has also spoken at many other high-profile events, including InfoComm, TIDE, the American Marketing Association's High Five Conference, VCU Brandcenter's Friday Forum series, and numerous Society for Experiential Graphic Design (SEGD) events. In this episode, you'll learn... Quotes[4:49] "Leviathan is a specialized design firm. We like to transform environments into bespoke experiences using a lot of digital wizardry in the way of constant interaction to make people's jaws drop." [24:25] "I once had another agency owner telling me that, 'Hey, man, you're in the service industry. You are paid for a service, you are not paid to be an artist. So you kind of have to get over your self-righteousness of trying to be—always trying to create art. You're in your marketing. You need to just accept that." [25:10] "What do you see at a Disney or Universal theme park? It seems to be magical, and it defies reality. And those are the exact types of projects that we work on outside of, say, a corporate headquarters or a museum…So [we try] to focus on, what would make this special? What could no one else do? Or at least not do very easily that we could do from a technology perspective? And then how can we make that technology invisible, so you feel like you are experiencing something that is sprinkled in pixie dust, that is magical?" ResourcesInstagram@chad.not.work @lvthn Websitehttps://www.lvthn.com/ LinkedinChad Hutson Have a Brand Problem? We can help.Book your no-obligation, 15-minute Wildstory Brand Clarity Call now.  Book Your FREE Brand Clarity Call   Podcast TranscriptChad Hutson  0:00  I met another guy who was a creative director who had been a painter and sculptor in his previous life. And at the time, he was running another animation studio. So we all got together and start talking about why I have this company. It's kind of coming back to life. We all love building things for physical environments. We like doing things kind of going beyond what is what is expected within those spaces. So maybe we just take what's left of my old company, and let's turn into something new. And that's literally what Leviathan was my old Rolodex. I'll use air quotes for people who might still remember that term, but my list of contacts money in the bank and started over with with those assets. And that was the vibe.   Marc Gutman  0:47  Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory. You know those amazing set displays at concerts that have crazy visuals projected all over them are those three storey digital display walls with all sorts of content you might see in the lobby of a big fancy New York City media skyscraper. Well today, we're talking to the guy who makes those. Before we get into this episode, I want to welcome you to the summer edition of Baby got backstory. The pace is a little more laid back, and my feet are perpetually Sandy. My tan is starting to come in. And every episode is recorded in boardshorts. And if that doesn't get you excited to leave a five star review and rating over at Apple podcasts or Spotify, nothing will, Hey, I know it's summer. I know you're probably about six white claws in while you're listening to this, you're going on post pandemic crazy. But ratings really do matter. Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Even during the summer, especially during the summer. I guarantee you a better summer than Kid Rock if you leave a review. Oh, and we like the likes and the follows and ratings too. So thank you for all that. Thank you for your reviews. I do appreciate it.   Today's guest is Chad Hudson, CEO and co founder of the award winning Chicago based experiencial creative firm, Leviathan, Leviathan. Chad facilitates creative strategy in all key business developments for the specialized creative agency, including managing the company's overall operations. His efforts have led to client relationships with Nike, Disney, Amazon, T Mobile, Kohler, universal, McDonald's, and Airbus, among others. Over here, if any of those companies I'm thinking you have Chad previously co founded the digital creative agency he drink in 2002, which merged with Leviathan in 2012. And over the years that firm produced breakthrough broadcasts and interactive work for an amazing roster of brands and agencies. His prior experience includes highly productive stints with the experiential marketing firm MC two is an entertainment and technology project manager with leading Hollywood post production sound company sound Deluxe is operations manager, a native of South Eastern United States, Chad earned his bachelor's of recording industry management at mtsu and a past present or multiple South by Southwest conferences.   Chad has also spoken at many other high profile events, including infocomm tied the American marketing Association's High Five conference, VCU brand centers Friday forum series, the numerous society for experiential graphic design events. If that didn't impress you enough. This is his story.   I am here with Chad Hudson, the CEO of Leviathan and Chad, thank you so much for coming on to the baby got backstory podcast. Before we get started. Can you tell us a little bit about what is Leviathan cool name I know it's a you know, kind of historic, weird sea creature but in your context, what is Leviathan?   Chad Hutson  4:47  Thanks for having me on Marc, appreciate it. Leviathan is a specialized design firm. We like to transform environments into bespoke experiences using a lot of digital wizardry and The way of constant interaction to make people's jaws drop. So hopefully that's a apt description of what we do.   Marc Gutman  5:06  Yeah. And why don't we just get right to my burning question? Where's the name Leviathan come from?   Chad Hutson  5:12  Whew, that was a hotly debated topic, we went round and round for a few different reasons. So I'd say out of the 100 or so names that we had come up with, Leviathan kept coming, this coming full circle, for us, the game part because we want it to be being in Chicago. Architecture is such an important part of the city, very, very classic city in regards to architecture as well. So that led to, okay, what's the classic name and Leviathan, as you may have seen, goes back from the days of the, of the, when the Bible was written, or at least how it was translated to essay by Titan by Thomas Hobbes about the Commonwealth. And also, if you look at the dictionary, there's something definition, something enormous. And that just kind of spoke volumes as far as we want to be probably somewhat intimidating to our competitors. But we also want to create the field of something big and something something unique. So all those different factors combined contributed to why we call Leviathan Leviathan. Awesome. And so   Marc Gutman  6:23  as the CEO of a creative firm, like creative services firm like Leviathan, I mean, is this what you thought you'd always be doing? Like, you know, eight year old Chad, are you running around thinking you're gonna be, you know, running a creative services firm thinking big and doing big things?   Chad Hutson  6:40  No, I'm kind of a kind of a shy guy in some ways. And so I'd never really thought I would be the CEO of anything. But as far as interests go, when I was a kid, I, I'm dating myself now, but I had what was known as the Radio Shack Color Computer. So I guess if you had a personal computer as a kid, you probably either had an apple, two e, or something like that, or Radio Shack Color Computer. So that in early age, I love to play around with computers I loved. We live in the woods. So I've always be outside and wanting to experience what nature had to offer. So I suppose that part doesn't surprise me. Love going to theme parks loves understanding how how the sausage is made and how things were were done. So the Creative Services part, glad to have, I guess, tapped into those childhood roots, but but leading an organization that does what we do. Yeah, a bit of a surprise for me.   Marc Gutman  7:37  And did you grew up in the Chicago area?   Chad Hutson  7:39  No, I grew up in the southeast. For the most part, I lived in rural Georgia, in a valley, lots of mountains nearby, I had a stream that ran behind our house in less fields. So it's a pretty interesting place to be raised. But a lot of childhood in Georgia, spent some time in LA suburbs as a kid as well. And I was born in Nashville. But Chicago has been my home for the last 16 years now.   Marc Gutman  8:06  As a young kid in Georgia, did you were you a creative kid? I mean, were you into those types of pursuits? Or do you have other interests,   Chad Hutson  8:16  I love to draw even though I sucked at it. I loved being musician, also not necessarily my greatest accomplishment. But I've learned how to play with a variety of different instruments within all the school bands and was in a rock band as a teenager, and even went to college to study audio engineering, just taking walk work in the music industry, man, it could be a producer. And certainly picked up some of the technical aspects of it, but just was blown away by by the talent that would go to go to my classes and be incredible audio engineers, as well as great musicians, I just realized, oh, man, I just don't know if I have what it takes to cut it. But it's also one school that I picked up not only the technical side of the music industry, to a certain extent, but also the business side. So I had that sort of more of a, a free form degree program where you could pick up essentially any number of classes that interest you, and that would formulate your degree. So everything from artist management, copyright, law, Music Publishing, as well as a business minor as well. So the finance side mix with audio engineering, mixed with other forms of management is a pretty, pretty unique kind of program of study. So I think that was also fortuitous for my experience later on in life.   Marc Gutman  9:37  Yeah. And I imagine you into that program and that school so you could go out into the world and work in the recording industry. Is that what happened? I mean is, you know, did you get out and you just like, you know, we're here now, so something happened along the way.   Chad Hutson  9:57  Sure. Yeah, I did. I did. Live in Nashville. For a number of years and worked in the music industry never really climbed too many rungs of the ladder there. But I would say, I spent Gosh, about five years worked for a country musician named Alan Jackson, who was, I guess, kind of a big deal at the time. So I worked for his management company, I worked for a music venue development company that never quite developed the music venue, I worked in, worked in publishing, work for indie record label for an artist named john prine, who recently passed. And in all those times, I thought, Wow, it's so cool to be close to the creative people in the industry, I get to see, see how it's all done. But the downside was, you got to see how things were done. And any sort of, I guess, business of creativity has the side where, at least in the music industry at the time, and this was right before the dawn of the mp3 and how that really transformed the whole industry. But that's a different topic. But just seeing how artists were treated as a, as a commodity as a thing versus as a human, and just how hard they were pushed. That, to me was a turning point where I realized, anytime you have someone who is an artist who is creative, those people should be better protected. And that's something that I think really resonated with me in coming years, as I became more of a producer project management of multimedia projects, that I understood just enough of what they needed to accomplish, and what what the process was for that. And being able to, again, protect them to a certain extent, or at least explain that to the outside world of here's the process, here's what needs to be done, and trying to shelter them, or shield them from some of the some of the crap that they may normally do so but actually discovered down the road that there's a career in that, and that is being a liaison, or middleman or producer. So that's what I became   Marc Gutman  11:58  it was that what happened right away? or How was that transition from kind of bridging that dream. And that fallen dream? It's really interesting, because I have a lot of stories like that to where like the, the vision doesn't meet the reality. You know, like you get there. You're like, Oh, I mean, I had, I did the same thing. I went out to the movie business. And I was like, Oh, this is great. And I can have a career, but I'm not sure I want one. And you know, and we could talk about that at length, but it just didn't match my sort of fantasy revision of what that experience was like. So how did you make that then jump or leap into to marketing as a as a career?   Chad Hutson  12:36  Yeah, this was a moment of frustration to a certain degree, as I mentioned, the ladder was was really tall in the music industry. And most people never really make it above a certain level. So while I was hovering towards the bottom of the ladder, some friends of mine, their company had been acquired out Las Vegas of all places. And it was a Hollywood based company called sound Deluxe. And they had a a themed entertainment, audio, visual, and Creative Services arm of that company. So they were supporting, like the Hard Rock Hotel and developing that music library. There were a lot of other themed places, universal studios in Hollywood, where different attractions that had audio visual hardware and components, but also sound design and sometimes content to a vibrating theater seats to robotics. So it's pretty interesting mixture of these physical elements with with media elements as well. And then the nuts and bolts that kind of stitch it all together. So I think the transition out of the music industry was pretty Swift. Even though sound Deluxe had its roots. In an audio, I thought, well, I'm getting on Nashville and leaving the industry behind, and then jumping right into this field, which then led to another gig with an exhibit company that also had a division that focused on developing these media rich, physical environments. I was, I was pretty hooked. And that's when I realized, I can still use some of the education I've had over the years, both in school and in my short lived music industry career. But I mean, just the combination of everything that I love on the on the technology side, as well as seeing, seeing these people that I worked with, create magic and doing it within the physical environment was a special. So that's what really stuck with me and caused that transition happened.   Marc Gutman  14:32  Yeah, and when we started the show, and you kind of talked about Leviathan, you gave us you know, an answer that, hey, we do these big things, and this and that, and you've talked a little bit about multimedia. But I don't think people really are going to understand like, if we go to your website, we see these amazing installations. I mean, I'm I got a couple scrolling right here in the background and they're like blowing my mind. And so, you know, I want to also set the like contrast between That work and we'll kind of get into that. But so that's what we're seeing today. What were some of those early, big sort of multimedia projects back in the day that now you look at and you're like, well, maybe it's not so fantastical now. But at the time, it was groundbreaking.   Chad Hutson  15:16  I have to admit, some of the early stuff still really resonates me I'm biased. So naturally, I'm going to pick favorites. But I think some of that early work still resonates even today with with people outside of the organization. There was within I think, probably the first seven or eight months of after Leviathan open, which was in 2010, there was an electronic musician named Amanda Tobin. And on top it's been around for a number of years, he was performing at a music festival electronic music festival called New Tech, and I believe in Montreal, and a friend of ours, a DJ, by the name of velo workhouse, had done lots of you remember the genre EDM, he did lots of electronic musicians and DJs sets, doing concert visuals for them. But what what Amman Tobin wanted to do was something a bit different. A lot of DJ sets, or electronic musicians would literally just be sitting in front of either a computer or, or turntables. And I'd have the cups of the earphones on their head. And there may be some lights blinking and then they would shake their head back and forth in the crowd would probably go crazy. But his idea was, let's give him something more to react to you. I want to have a think in terms of like an IMAX movie, something very cinematic, had a narrative experience, which would accompany his album Isom, which I think it was somewhat of a concept album for him. So now he just having visuals, but having those narrative visuals projection mapped on two crazy stage set. And for those of you who don't know, project projection mapping at home, that's okay. It's a technical term, if you can imagine wrapping a three dimensional object in a projected image or in light, and having it seem to be very form fitted for that object. So this the stage that was a bunch of white cubes look like they were stacked, stacked on top of each other. And these crazy visuals were projection onto that surface, as as music played, and turned out that the crowd loved it. And the work garnered a lot of press in wired and Fast Company, New York Times, much of the publication. So that was really a watershed moment for us and helped build our career. So I'll flag that one as a as a favorite that I'd say, from a financial perspective, not our shiny spot, but it's okay and paid dividends over the years just being a calling card for us.   Marc Gutman  17:51  Speaking of holding up and still resonating, it looks like it still might be on your reel on your site. If I see it cycling through Is that right? Is that what I'm looking at?   Chad Hutson  17:59  Yeah, it's again, it's kind of a legacy project from from the early days. But we it's been pretty remarkable. We've had people from, again, 10 years ago when that show was going on tour. But whenever I have conversations with folks, and they see that clients even seeing that on our we'll say, Yeah, I went to that show a decade ago, and I'd never seen anything before. Like it just completely blew my mind and I'll never forget it. So when you hear compliments like that mean, even though it's not, it's not marketing or advertising in the traditional sense. There's not a brand logo associated with it or no Grand Prix award that comes with that. Being that is probably one of the best competency and get some people have their mind blown and that they remember even 10 years later.   Marc Gutman  18:48  That is incredible. You mentioned the early years Leviathan, let's let's go back there like how what was the, the genesis of the business like why Why? Why did you start this firm?   Chad Hutson  19:00  Wow, yeah, definitely going in the Wayback Machine. I had started another smaller, called a web and motion production company. We did work for other advertising agencies and other smaller groups, building websites did some for for record labels, and some for big agencies like DDP. We also had some motion designers or animator errs on our staff that had been going along from how the early days of 2002 up through about 2008 2009. And that's when one of the previous big financial crises hits hit the US, and we had to layoff everyone. The other partners that had they were not interested in sticking around. So there was this company that we'd built over the years and just kind of sitting dead in the water. I was the last man standing literally, in a lofty warehouse space in Chicago, thinking what The hell am I gonna do? We, we had the work wasn't coming in, we had had dead at that point. So I'll save you the sob story to say over probably about six, eight months, the work came back, had the company to myself and had cash in the bank. So then it became a matter of what, what do I do next? And how can I do it differently. So I had met another gentleman by the name of Matt Daly, he was freelancing with with my organization. And he just turned to be a brilliant fellow, he was not only really talented and in 3d, but he was also a crazy artist. in other respects, he had graduated from the school, the artists stitute, designed and built robots for like a touring robotics troupe in Europe. And he had some of these other crazy techniques he was trying out so very much, we call them the nutty professor just as a nickname, because he really was that, that brilliant guy, he could do his day job as an animator, but he really had passion for doing these other, more technically advanced things, then met another guy who was a creative director who had been a painter and sculptor in his previous life. And at the time, he was running another animation studio. So we also got together and start talking about why have this company, it's kind of coming back to life. We all love building things for physical environments, and we like doing things kind of going beyond what is what is expected within those spaces. So maybe we just take what's left of my old company, and let's turn into something new. And that's literally what what Leviathan was, was my old Rolodex, I'll use air quotes for people who might still remember that term, my list of contacts the money in the bank, and started over with with those assets. And that was Leviathan.   Marc Gutman  21:45  Was that hard? taken on partners? Was there any pause there? Were you? Was there any concern? Or was it pretty easy?   Chad Hutson  21:51  Oh, getting married is never easy. It certainly came with its with its benefits too, though, having having to lead my own organization for a while having some other strong personalities come into the organization was I think was, it can be challenging, but it's also a very healthy thing to happen to have a balance between the business side and just called pure artistic side. And then the technical side, we kept the organization honest, for a number of years, we were able to, to at least support ourselves, I have just had a someone in the finance industry Tell me like, hey, a business is not. It's not to support a hobby. But in some ways, it kind of was because we got to build beautiful work. Some of it was very commercial. But I think it was just a good balanced organization for a number of years. But I think as, as we grew in size, and as we just wanted to keep it going, I think that's where the diversion of opinions between partners can sometimes come into play. It's not necessarily a matter of there was misalignment. The no one was necessarily wrong or, right. But the the aspiration is to be a pure artist and do nothing, nothing commercial and still make a healthy living. That's not that's not always a common happening. So, so some wanted to just have stability in their lives, and others want to be artists. And I think that's where some of the complications came in. But being I'd say as, quote unquote, parents who got married and had a baby that is Leviathan, certainly, we'd all be proud of the Leviathan that that exists today because of that parenting, if you will.   Marc Gutman  23:39  Yeah, that's such an interesting topic of that you just brought up in that. I think a lot of creatives struggle with this, this tension between wanting to be an artist and wanting to make money. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. I think sometimes we feel guilty about it, we're like, oh, there's some like sin and being commercial or getting money, or we've sold our soul or compromising our what we do. But at the end of the day, you know, we're one of times very fortunate that we can do this for a living and solve business problems and get paid, but like, how do you reconcile that what was what was the sort of the, the recipe Leviathan for balancing that, that need to to be an artist yet be commercial?   Chad Hutson  24:25  I once had another agency owner telling me that like, Hey, man, you're in the service industry, you are paid for a service, you are not paid to be an artist. So you kind of have to get over your self righteousness of trying to be not always trying to create art now your, your in your in marketing, you need to you need to just accept that. So that was a moment where I had to pause and wanted to push back and say, well, that's, that's a bunch of crap. But the more I thought about it, I think it did resonate. So that being said, we wouldn't Next Leviathan or at least what made Leviathan great in the early days was really trying to push the boundaries of what? what is possible within the physical space. If you think about, what do you see at a Disney or universal theme park, it seems to be magical and it defies reality. And that's those are the exact types of projects that we work on outside of, say, a corporate headquarters or, or Museum, we love working in the theme space as well. So in trying to focus on if it's not, well, we try to make it beautiful as well. But what would make this special? What could no one else do? Or at least not do very easily that we could do from a technology perspective? And then how can we make that technology invisible, so you feel like you are experiencing something that is sprinkled in pixie dust that it is magical, but there's no reason why we can't make it beautiful as well. So I think just always trying to recruit the right talent that understands what is what is cutting edge, but feasible. Avoid the bleeding edge so that you don't fall on your face from trying technology, it's not been tried and true. And then also making sure you have people who are who value design above a lot of other things. And so therefore, you don't compromise you make it make it bespoke and unique in its execution, and you make it as beautiful as you can, and as beautiful as a client's and branding will allow and you can't nail it every time. But as long as you strive for that and you do have some some end results that meet that criteria, then I consider that a win for sure.   Marc Gutman  26:44  A common question I get all the time is Mark, can you help me with our brand? Yes, we help companies solve branding problems. And the first step would be to schedule a no obligation brand clarity call, we'll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email, we'll get you booked right away. So whether you're just getting started with a new business, or whether you've done some work and need a refresh, or whether you're a brand that's high performing and wants to stay there, we can help. After you book your brand clarity call, you'll learn about our brand audit and strategy process. we'll identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh, will determine if your business has a branding problem. And you'll see examples of our work and get relevant case studies. We'll also see if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level. So what are you waiting for? Build the brand you've always dreamed of. Again, we'll link to that in the show notes or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email. Now back to the show.   As a hearing you speak it actually took me back to my very first job, which was I was working for Disney Imagineering in Cali. You were an Imagineer. I Well, I don't think I don't know if I was technically I worked there I was on the payroll. I don't think I was an Imagineer though I was like a runner. Right. And for your total projects. Yeah, for different projects. But I would report to this total skunkworks kind of warehouse in Van Nuys that was very nondescript, and you'd walk in through different security and you know, and then there'd be like, look like the land of Misfit Toys with robots and welding. And then I go through all that. And then I'd actually walk into a private theater that had three panels, 70 millimeter, and we'd be screening, screening movies for Epcot and stuff like that. But as we're as we're talking, I was like, wow, do they have their own version? Because I'm looking at your website like work? Where are these things fabricated? And do you have like your own sort of secret Imagineering Leviathan lab, if you will, where these were these projects are assembled? What's that? Like?   Chad Hutson  29:07  Yeah, I wish we had a gigantic fabrication facility where you could 3d prints something the size of a human being or to have tons of robots that are at our disposal. For the most part, we do have a a an engineering space where the team can work on prototyping things. We have other partners that will work with where they can fabricate other physical structures. But as far as like hooking computers up to that and projecting onto the wall and setting up different monitor arrays or testing out augmented virtual reality, any sort of installations that we might work on, we always try to set up a working prototype for that in our space. And it's, it's absolutely necessary that imagine designing a product and never really testing it and then just like sending out to the market and saying, Well, here it is. We really have to test out Those kinds of prototypes long before we get to the point of trying to roll it out or even showing it to the client. So it's been, it's always intriguing to see what, what works and what doesn't. When you just when you think you have the right plan, that plan is foiled by reality. And then you have to pivot. But a lot of important learnings come out of those, those mistakes. same can be said about live, as well as business. But prototyping, I think it's really important for us to test testings out, we learn new tricks, new processes from that. And, again, I love I love seeing much like those who work in in film, like you have looking behind the scenes and seeing how it's all made is, is intriguing in and of itself. So I love that process.   Marc Gutman  30:47  Yeah, absolutely. And you're talking about like prototyping and getting it right. I mean, are there any projects that like, you just wish you could have had to do overrun? Or wish you're never even took on? Like, do you have any that just didn't? didn't quite work?   Chad Hutson  31:01  I certainly I'd hate to bring up the the names of the of the innocent or the client names, either. But yeah, I mean, we have absolutely had some projects where, if anything, it's probably usually just a shortage of time. And when you, we don't have enough time to get something right. Even if it's less about being a perfectionist, and trying to do it over again, and maybe doing it even better the second or third time, sometimes you just don't have the luxury of finishing the work at all. So it's, you feel like you're stringing it together with with duct tape at the very end. So I would say sometimes those those projects happen. And all you can really do is stick with it, and work with clients and have them be as understanding as I possibly can. And you as much as you want to go back to them and say, Hey, we told you so we told you we needed more time, and still didn't happen. All you can do is let them know that, hey, we want to avoid what happened last time, right? So we need the ample time to to not only prototype this, but to install it and finish it out. So yeah, I can't really say a specific project. But I would just say time can be the enemy of of that kind of work. And anytime perfect.   Marc Gutman  32:19  Yeah. So what do you want clients to know about this work? Like? Like, how do how do we get it? Right?   Chad Hutson  32:25  Great question, I could probably come up with a pretty long list. So I'll just think of a few key points, I think that might be might be important for for future clients. No. I think for one, sometimes the the bells and whistles are not what makes these experiences as good as we all want them. technology's absolutely an important part. But if you are in a corporate headquarters, and you have a, say a gorgeous, giant display, floor to ceiling goes three storeys high. I've seen those where clients have cnn running on those screens versus having something that can be a valuable branded moment. So they invested all that money into probably millions of dollars in these gigantic view displays, and they don't think about what what the content is that goes on those. So that is that's kind of marketing 101, right, you need to have the right message to the right story. So I'd say think less about the technology and more about those, those immersive branded moments, you have to get that right. And you have to balance out the investment in, in the content in the story and in the design as much as you are on the technology side. If not, then you have a big expensive TV in your living room that you don't even have Netflix to play on. And you have a big screen that plays a screensaver. And that's, that's not doing anyone any great service, I'd say something else that's important about about these kinds of moments is that if you if you want to have a an environment that is cutting edge from a technology standpoint, you you have to understand that that comes with an investment of time and you have to experiment and some things you aren't always going to get right and it kind of comes back to the time aspect you need time to prototype and test and think that's what groups like, like a Disney or universal get right is they they spend a lot of time developing new technology new IP before they release it out into the world. So that's not always possible in the in the call the brand environments. So So I'd say maybe to come first. So first full circle on that point. It is clients sometimes want to push the envelope further than then should be possible and you need to kind of work with solid state technologies and techniques that that we know will work over the test of time and and can't always push the envelope as far as we'd like. There we go. That narrative first and foremost, and investing in content over technology, and then just kind of being realistic with expectations and what you can do within a branded environment.   Marc Gutman  35:12  Yeah, totally. And so when you think about all that, and you're talking about solid state technologies and tried and true, let's flip it and kind of go the other way, like, what are you most excited about in terms of technologies that are coming up in ways that can be applicable to how you work with your clients?   Chad Hutson  35:30  Yeah, I'd say, a lot of what we've been doing lately is I try to use a simple term real time content. This could be anything from say data visualization to artificial intelligence or computer vision, it's it's kind of taking taking some these technologies and putting it on steroids and making the content not just playing back a video, but having having real time aspects to it having data that's refreshed at the very, in the very second that you're looking at a screen. other technologies like game engines, so unity, or unreal, are the same kinds of technologies used to build console video games. And that kind of engine can also be very powerful with creating beautiful graphics, and affecting it real time, either through cards, sensing physical gestures, or using other external controllers. But I think the evolution of all that real time content has been pretty remarkable. And it's a cornerstone of what we do. And when you have that in the Brandon environment, I mean, you can have different types of industrial simulations or, or different types of data visualizations helps communicate to, to your organization or to your clients. Just how dynamically something can change. And it does it in a way that's compelling and beautiful. And that's what honestly, that's what creating all the these experiences is about. Much like in a, in a theme park as a kid, those kind of magical moments resonate with you for a long time. And that's what that's the kind of tools that we build for our clients is create an experience for them that they're not seeing, gonna forget. And for for those clients, it leads to, to either engage employees or transactions with clients. So those real time technologies, I think, are, are very exciting for us, and adds levels of personalization as well. So that if, if you enter to a space, this is an overused analogy of Minority Report, if you recall that film, but the the moment where Tom Cruise is running around, he has someone else's identity, but everywhere he runs within the retail space, these ads pop up that that speak his name, and supposedly cater to what his interests are. So while that's a bit, can you say it's a bit far fetched anymore, but Well, that would be a bit intrusive in real life, I think, when applied in the right way, if you share that kind of information, much like you would with a website or an app, to share it in the right way, within the physical environment, the real time personalized experiences that can come with that I think are it can almost be worth the worth sharing information. And to get that kind of payoff for that experience.   Marc Gutman  38:29  Yeah. And so I think about that, and I think about it's like using data for good versus data for bad. And it's, how do we do that? Because Because I want to be a part of that world where I get the personalized, customized experience that you just described. That sounds amazing, right? Like sounds like but like then there's always this like, other shoe that will drop of data being used against us. Is there a way to, to live in that cooler world without the dark side?   Chad Hutson  39:00  Yeah, it's a difficult question to answer. I would say, I know, I keep throwing out these Disney theme park examples. But I'd say it's a good model to think about what what Disney had created a few years back is something called the magic band. And I think they've since pivoted more to using mobile devices if people don't want to use the magic band, but it's more or less an RFID wristband that is that identifies you as a person. And when you register for the magic band, you also attach a credit card or a bank card to that so that when you go into the park, yes, you can use the park to get in to get in kind of recognize you and say okay, yeah, they've paid to their admission fee. But when they're going to a restaurant and they want to, to order a pick up their food, they know Okay, well this is this is Chad, he picked up the hot dog he ordered from his mobile device. But then there's also moments where if you're going through a ride and I think we worked on this for for the Haunted Mansion, which is an attraction, as you're riding through. It's called the dune buggy. There's an identifier where knows if you're sitting in a certain seat within the the buggy and the ghosts that's projected onto a surface in front of you hold up a science, that's Chicago or bust, it knows that I'm from Chicago. And it pulled that information and and displayed it, which made it a pretty remarkable move for me like, hey, how did they they know that they know us from Chicago. So that's a one specific case. I suppose that happening. But are they using that information for marketing purposes? Very likely. But again, I think it kind of comes back to the debate of a customer paid for this experience. Did it make it a better experience? for them? It's is it more remarkable? Is that more amazing or magical? I think the answer is yes. Then the customers are okay with that. But But that said, I think whenever whenever the question of ethics comes into play is transparency is key. So if you don't know what you're signing up for when you're sharing that kind of information, then yeah, that's one of the bad things start happening. And you don't always want to read through a 45 page agreement to see if, like, Am I really giving up information that I shouldn't? That's an invasion of my privacy or not. But that's our perspective. If it's, if it's worth the trade off to the customer, then I suppose it's okay. Question mark.   Marc Gutman  41:33  And I haven't been to Disney in so long and made me want to go back. Sounds awesome. And you sold it like it sounds great. I want the personalized experience. I want my magic band to work. So that sounds that sounds great. And a few years ago, you actually went through was it an acquisition or a merger with with the envoy group?   Chad Hutson  41:51  Yeah, absolutely. There's a group called envoy, and it's based in Southern California, specifically Orange County. And we had worked together with them. If you've ever seen a Vizio television, it seems like there's one in almost every household. But when Vizio first came on to the scene, as an electronics manufacturer, Ondoy was like their first digital agency. And at the time, they were doing a ton of work for them. And they'd collaborated with us on doing some 3d animation, software products. So what started as a successful collaboration some years ago, and the continued relationship, it just evolved into conversations around, hey, on voices, we're, we're trying to build something bigger. And we were looking for the right family members. So with them being a phone call, called a traditional digital agency, where they were focused more on creating websites and apps and digital products for their clients. And we were doing more of the call to digital spaces or environments. It just seemed like a great match. So they, when they purchase gas in four years ago, and now it's, yeah, I'm really glad to happen, especially in light of pandemic, having a larger family with with a greater resources, it's certainly been very, very important for our organization to, to stay strong and, and even thrive in those times. So it's been a, I'd say much to my comment earlier, sometimes when it comes to marriage. It's not always easy, but I think that we are like minded individuals, and we're making something bigger and better. That's been great.   Marc Gutman  43:36  Was it difficult at that time? I mean, I know, I know. Now looking back, you're like, this is great. And we got through the pandemic, and we're part of this happy family. But at the time, was it hard to think about giving up your autonomy and doing that and becoming a part of a different group?   Chad Hutson  43:53  very fair question. I would say there were mixed emotions that they're there and how was a boss of sorts, whenever you are, whenever someone buys you for what you have, I think that their hope is to, to make more money off of that. And that's the fair assumption. That's what when you run a business, you want to be profitable. And as I described, in our earlier years, we were probably more focused on making great work and at least supporting ourselves and not really going beyond that. So I think it was an important lesson to learn if you you can make great work, but you also have to if you want to grow if you want to have more stability, you need to need to earn money for your shareholders. So I think that that was while it was difficult to shift the mindset of being more businesslike versus being more suppose creative. I, the other part of my brain completely got it. And I think that was also the other part of my brain is what wanted to learn more about the Beside of how do larger businesses operate? What? What are the better financial models to pursue? And how can we be more efficient at doing things, we can't always just be the experimenters at some point in time, okay, we have to move on to the next project, we can't always just fund experimentation ourselves. While we try to do that, when we can, I think learning on the job shouldn't necessarily be something that that you have to pay for, you can build that into projects. So, so there were definitely some adjustments. But again, I feel like it's built a it's helped us to build a better operation, all the way around. And we serve a wide range of clients now. And they're still really good about giving us enough autonomy. If anything, they're there in Southern California, we're in Chicago. So even though everything is virtual, at the moment, it's still a good a good balance of letting us to what we do best and being a support system. And, and I guess a boss when, whenever needed.   Marc Gutman  46:05  Sometimes a little accountability doesn't hurt, right? Like I talked about this morning with someone I was like, wow, like not being accountable, because I have my own thing, but like I fully can recognize that some accountability will also go a long way.   Chad Hutson  46:19  Yeah, I mean, we all push ourselves, right? If we're business owners or operators, we push ourselves, but sometimes you need the outside influence. And that's, that's a bit of, yeah, I think we're on the same page.   Marc Gutman  46:29  Yeah, that's really cool. So as you look to the future, what do you what are you most excited about these days? What what are you looking forward to?   Chad Hutson  46:37  I don't think the Android had acquired Leviathan, as well as another company called Bulldog Drummond. And I don't think they're gonna stop there. I think they are certainly looking to find other like minded organizations that fit the mold. So having a bigger family having greater capabilities, it'll allow our team the ability to cross pollinate that much more. Our different offices have definitely started to team up more. And we're learning from those experiences and growing from them. Not only does it give our clients get some more, more offerings and more support, but it just gives our other employees opportunities to try new things and work in different offices. That that kind of growth, I think, is what's really exciting for us. But I'm also excited for, for the world to start opening up again, because everything we do is pretty much centered around physical environments and physical environments have been taboo for the last 1518 months almost. So having having theme parks, museums, reopen corporate headquarters, that are reopening and being able to put experiences in those spaces, because we've remained very busy during, even during the lockdown. But as the world opens up, and there's experiences that we've been building, have have also opened with them. I just think that, that people are going to be so excited about getting back into spaces and experiencing things that it's going to be a very busy next few years for us.   Marc Gutman  48:14  Yeah, I for one, I'm very excited about reemerging into the world and experiencing life once again. So Chad, as we come to a close here, I'd like you to think back to your time growing up in Georgia young boy and plan along the stream. And you know, if he was able to see you now, what do you think he'd say,   Chad Hutson  48:38  wow. Now what I just see today, or what I see the whole movie of the last 35 years or so.   Marc Gutman  48:47  That's up to you. What are you going to share with them?   Chad Hutson  48:51  Oh, no, I think I would have to say I want to take a moment to at least say You know what? We did all right. But I think the one important ones, important things that I always try to remind myself of is to is to not be so hard on ourselves. Now to say that good enough is truly good enough. It's not just it's adequate. Like No, I did. I did well, it's good. And we don't always have to keep flogging ourselves to say could have done better should have done better. Because we you try you fail and you learn from it. And so I guess I would just say that. Hey, man, you've done pretty well for yourself and be proud of it. But now get back out there and and do more do better. So yeah, I would just tell myself that it's going to be okay, and hang in there and don't give up and just know that you tried your best. Probably not the strongest answer I could give them but that's that's honestly what goes through my mind a lot of times some maybe you could have done more or could have done better but you did pretty well. So be good with   Marc Gutman  50:07  that is Chad Hutson, CEO and co founder of Leviathan. I've always wondered who made all those amazing digital experiences, I would interact with it performances, theme parks and office buildings. And now I know it's most likely Leviathan. I can't stop thinking about what Chad said that sometimes good enough really is good enough. Throughout my career, I haven't always agreed with that sentiment. But coincidentally, this summer my personal theme is, be content, not complacent, but be content with the good things. lean in. Remember why we're here to enjoy this experience. I also really resonated with Chad's notion that we should invest in content over technology. After all these years and all the technological advancements we've seen, from film, to radio, to television to the internet, one thing has remained constant, great and compelling storytelling wins above all else. A big thank you to Chad Hutson and the team at Leviathan. We will link to all things Chad and Leviathan in the show notes. And if you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wildstory.com. Our best guests like Chad come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS see you'll never miss an episode. A lot of big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can't deny

BGBS 071: Maurice Cherry | Creative Strategist | The Restorative Power of Play Maurice Cherry is the creative strategist for CodeSandbox, an online code editor tailored for web applications. Prior to this, he served principal and creative director at Lunch, an award-winning multidisciplinary studio he created in 2008 that helps creative brands craft messages and tell stories for their targeted audiences, including fostering relationships with underrepresented communities. Past clients and collaborators included Facebook, Mailchimp, Vox Media, NIKE, Mediabistro, Site5, SitePoint, and The City of Atlanta. Maurice is a pioneering digital creator who is most well-known for Revision Path™, an award-winning podcast which is the first podcast to be added to the permanent collection of the Smithsonian's National Museum of African American History and Culture (NMAAHC). Other projects of Maurice's include the Black Weblog Awards, 28 Days of the Web, The Year of Tea, and the design anthology RECOGNIZE. Maurice's projects and overall design work and advocacy have been recognized by Apple, Adobe, NPR, Lifehacker, Design Observer, Entrepreneur, AIGA, the Columbia Journalism Review, Forbes, Fast Company, and many other print and digital outlets. Maurice is also an educator, and has built curricula and taught courses on web design, web development, email marketing, WordPress, and podcasting for thousands of students over the past ten years. Maurice is the 2018 recipient of the Steven Heller Prize for Cultural Commentary from AIGA, Creative Loafing Atlanta's 2018 Influentials in the fields of business and technology, was named as one of GDUSA's “People to Watch” in 2018, and was included in the 2018 edition of The Root 100 (#60), their annual list of the most influential African-Americans ages 25 to 45. In previous years, Maurice was awarded as one of Atlanta's “Power 30 Under 30″ in the field of Science and Technology by the Apex Society. He was also selected as one of HP's “50 Tech Tastemakers” in conjunction with Black Web 2.0, and was profiled by Atlanta Tribune as one of 2014's Young Professionals. He is also a member of the International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences. Maurice holds a Bachelor's degree in Mathematics from Morehouse College and a Master's degree in telecommunications management from Keller Graduate School of Management. In this episode, you'll learn... As a creative on the web, it's beneficial to stay fluid and agile enough to go where the market goes. It's detrimental to focus on only one specialty because the industry changes so quickly that it may become obsolete. When done correctly, brands can put forth an image that is discordant with people's initial perception of them, through storytelling in marketing. This can draw in an entirely new audience based on the brand's "personality." Podcasting is not as easy as it looks. Everything is deliberate, and a lot of care goes into each episode. Quotes [8:10] It almost is a detriment to be kind of a specialist, because your specialty may end up getting absorbed or may become obsolescent or something like that. So you kind of have to stay fluid and kind of see where different trends are going and see how you can fit in there. [12:45] Brands may try to put forth an image of who they are or who they want to be. And that may not even mesh with how people are thinking about them…but it makes people remember them in a way that perhaps people may not think of, and so they may gain a whole new level of audience just based off of that kind of storytelling and interaction that draws them in to who they are as a brand and what they sort of represent in terms of company values. [1:00:43] I think people will look at the 400 episodes of revision path and just see a monolithic set of people. But I mean, there's so much diversity within the people that I have interviewed, whether it's age diversity, whether it's what they do in the industry, years of experience, there's men, there's women, there's trans folk, there's folks in the US and the Caribbean, throughout Europe, throughout Africa, throughout Asia and Australia. They're everywhere. The thing that sort of ties them all together is they're practicing designers, or they're practicing techies, or they're doing something creative on the web that is worthy of kind of falling into line with everything that I'm doing with revision paths. [1:04:53] I just turned 40 this year. And there's still a lot of things about myself that I feel like I've managed to still keep a very playful spirit and still be able to kind of tap into the restorative power of play, even into the work that I do. I mean, even what I'm doing with creative strategy, it's kind of playing at work a little bit. I get to really dive into myself and come up with inspiring things that we can do and fantastic campaigns that we can execute. Resources Podcast: Revision Path LinkedIn: Maurice Cherry Twitter: @mauricecherry Have a Brand Problem? We can help. Book your no-obligation, 15-minute Wildstory Brand Clarity Call now.  Learn about our Brand Audit and Strategy process Identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh Determine if your business has a branding problem See examples of our work and get relevant case studies See if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level Book Your FREE Brand Clarity Call   Podcast Transcript Maurice Cherry 0:02 And I started doing these long form interviews, maybe about 1500 to 2000 words or so. But it just took so long to put together. I was doing it by myself. And it was someone that actually was a reader of revision path, who one day wrote me and said that she was a fan of revision path as you would really like to be on revision path, but wanted to record a podcast because she had a podcast that she was doing in Chicago. At the time. I'm like, yeah, we can record that's fine. thinking to myself, I have no recording equipment. So we ended up recording our interview, the very first episode of revision path on my mobile phone in a restaurant. Terrible quality. I still keep the episode out. I mean, it's somewhat listable, I guess, I don't know. But that was kind of where the genesis of the podcast started. Marc Gutman 0:54 podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory, we are talking with Maurice cherry, the award winning podcaster, creative strategist, and designer. And before we get into this episode, I feel so lucky that I get to talk to people. And I get to talk to people on this show. And I get to talk to people on this show, and share it with you, the audience. I truly, truly, truly thank you and appreciate you. If you like this show, and want to show your like an appreciation for me or the show, please head over to Apple podcasts or Spotify and give us a five star review and rating. Ratings really do matter. Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on third charts. And we're human. We like likes and follows and ratings too. So thank you for your reviews. I do appreciate it. Today's guest is Maurice cherri, creative strategist, designer and host of the award winning podcast revision path. past clients and collaborators included Facebook, MailChimp, Vox media nyck Media Bistro site five sitepoint in the city of Atlanta. Maria is a pioneering digital creator, who is most well known for revision path and award winning podcast, which is the first podcast to be added to the permanent collection of the Smithsonian's National Museum of African American History and Culture. Other projects of maurices include the black weblog awards 28 days of the web, the year of t in the design anthology recognize Murray says projects and overall design work and advocacy have been recognized by Apple, Adobe NPR, life hacker design observer entrepreneur, the AI GA, the Columbia Journalism Review, Forbes Fast Company in many other print and digital outlets. He says the 2018 recipient of the Steven Heller prize for cultural commentary from the AI GA, creative loafing Atlanta's 2018 influentials in the fields of business and technology was named one of GED USA people to watch in 2018. It was included in the 2018 edition of the route 100. He was number 60 and their annual list of the most influential African Americans ages 25 to 45. In previous years, Maurice was awarded one of Atlanta's power 30 under 30 in the field of science and technology by the apex society. He was also selected as one of HPS 50 tech tastemakers in conjunction with black web to Dotto. It was profiled by Atlanta Tribune is one of 2014 young professionals. He is also a member of the International Academy of digital arts and sciences. And this is his story. I am here with Maurice cherry who is a creative strategist, designer and podcaster. You may know him from his very popular podcast revision path, and that's because they just recorded their 400th episode which is a major, major milestone Marie's Welcome to the baby. Got back History podcast. Maurice Cherry 5:01 Thank you so much for having me, Mark, this is great. Marc Gutman 5:04 That's so great to have you here. Why don't we just hop right into it? I mean, you, you have this varied what I'd call a hybrid background of creative strategist designer podcaster. Like, how did that come to be like, like, how do you make that all work in today's environment? Maurice Cherry 5:24 You know, I'm kind of still trying to figure that out myself. I'm lucky to be able to kind of remain a bit fluid and hybrid in some sorts as it relates to my skill set, which allows me to kind of go where the market goes, but I mean, my background, I have a undergraduate degree in mathematics. my graduate degree is in telecommunications, management's. I've worked in media, I've worked in web, I've worked with nonprofits, I've worked with tech startups, I've had my own business for nine years. So I've done a little bit of everything and a lot of different places. And I've had the opportunity to work with everyone from, you know, startup founders and entrepreneurs to like, captains of industry at fortune 100 companies. So I've kind of been a little all over the place. And like I said, being able to remain fluid has helped me as things have changed in the market. I mean, I started off working for companies here, I'm in Atlanta, Georgia, I started off working for companies here and then quit the last place I was working out, which was at&t and working as a senior web designer, started my own studio did that for nine years, sort of wound that down and then jump back into working for places design working for tech startups. And just kind of going from there. Yeah, and Marc Gutman 6:40 you use that word, fluid and fluidity. And you know, the old way of doing things used to be very specialized used to be very siloed not not bouncing between disciplines. Why do you think it's important to to be fluid in in your skill set in your career? What advantage is that given you, Maurice Cherry 7:01 um, for me, the advantage that it's given is being able to have the perspective to see where commonalities lie, as the market, or as you really the industry sort of changes. I mean, when I first came about on the web, you were either a web designer, a web developer, or a webmaster, like those are kind of the three particular titles that you had. And now you've got all different types of product designers and UX designers and things like that, despite the fact that there are new titles and the way that things have changed. There's still some sort of common threads between a lot of these different types of titles. And even as companies have come along and introduced new types of technology into the world, which therefore mean that there are new types of people that work on these things. Like, there's conversation designers, there's mixed reality designers like you know, a couple of weeks ago, I was first introduced to the metaverse, which sounds like something you'd hear in like a 90s sci fi afternoon kids show her something. So there's so many Tell that to say that the market and the industry changes so much, it almost is a detriment to be kind of a specialist, because your specialty may end up getting, you know, absorbed or may become obsolescent or something like that. So you kind of have to stay fluid and kind of see where different trends are going and see how you can fit in there. Marc Gutman 8:29 Yeah, and I want to be a part of the metaverse like that sounds awesome. I don't even know what that is. But I want to like tell people that I am part of the metaverse or that I work in the metaverse, that'd be great. And it's really interesting because the person that introduced us, Douglas Davis, who is appeared on this show, he was talking about something really, really similar in his conversation, his interview, which was a lot of what we're doing today hasn't been invented yet. Right? And we're kind of in this next wave of, of that. And so he gave the example back when he was starting out, like no one had really invented, like how to build web pages and websites. And so it was real time, right? And then we started to grow up in no one had invented how to be an expert on Twitter when Twitter first came out, we all just kind of did it, you know. And now you know, what I'm hearing you say is that business is again, moving technology is moving so fast. And it's you know, they're intertwined, right Business and Technology and it's moving so quickly, that you have to be fluid that you have to be nimble, and you have to be kind of you can't be an expert at anything, if anything because it's moving so fast, but what you probably can be is a really good thinker and a really good strategist in order to bring all these disciplines together. Did I didn't get that right. Maurice Cherry 9:52 Yeah, that's pretty accurate. I mean, the the beauty of my particular title of being a creative strategist Is that no matter what business that I'm put in, I'm still able to kind of function because what I do, but one of the top one of the things that I'm sort of tasked to do is kind of be a company's in house creative experts. So I'm working across teams to discover opportunities for storytelling. I'm working maybe with a marketing team on campaigns, I'm working with a sales team on ways that they can reach new audiences. So I can kind of be very flexible, you know, no matter what sort of business that I'm putting in, which is pretty good. Marc Gutman 10:31 Yeah. And that sounds like awesome, like, I hear you talk. And I'm like, wow, I want to be a creative strategist, you know, how, you know? How does that show up in business? are more and more businesses recognizing the need for it? And what really is the the, the impetus for bringing on a creative strategist? Like why? Why do they say like, hey, Maria, we need you to come in and help us out. Maurice Cherry 10:55 In my experience has mostly been when it's boiled down to needing help with storytelling, or with some sort of brand awareness or brand campaign strategy tends to be tied. In my experience, that strategy has tended to be tied to branding fairly easily. So say, at the past few places that I've worked at, I've done a lot of sort of brand centric work with what they're doing in order to take the story of what their business is, and what it is that they're trying to sort of put forth to their customers. And then really kind of, I don't know, tell that in a way that their audience would find compelling or that potential audiences may find compelling. And that could be video, that could be a podcast, that could be a really well done marketing campaign. It could be a drip campaign of newsletters, it could be a series of white papers, it can really sort of manifest in a number of different ways, depending on who we're trying to reach and what the story is that we're trying to tell. Marc Gutman 11:51 Yeah. And so as I think about it, I mean, I get excited about this idea of creative strategist and working at a brand level across departments, because that's typically where we run into problems, right, is that this type of initiative is siloed, into the marketing department into the creative department. And so having that influence across departments is really, you know, what I see is the magic of this type of work. But when you were, in your experience, when you look at this, what do brands that get this right? Like, what do they do? What are you seeing them do to get this this type of work? Right? Maurice Cherry 12:31 One thing I'm seeing is that they're doing a lot of listening, they're listening to their audience there, whether that's through social media, or through any sort of, you know, other channel or back channel, they're listening to what their audience is telling them. Oftentimes, brands may try to put forth an image of who they are or who they want to be. And then that may not even mesh with how, you know, people are thinking about them. Sometimes that works to a brand's advantage. Sometimes it doesn't. I think we've mostly seen this on social media, where you see brands like, Oh, God, what's a good brand that that's kind of subversive stay comes. The stake of his brand, for example, is weirdly stoic and philosophic. On Twitter, which you would not associate with a brand of like frozen meat products, like, why are they so deep right now, I don't understand this. But it makes people remember them in a way that perhaps, you know, people may not think of steak gums. And so they may gain a whole new level of audience just based off of that kind of storytelling and interaction that draws them in to like, who they are as a brand, and what they sort of represent in terms of company values. And such, I certainly thinks that as social media has grown as that and and as more people have tapped into social media, they're kind of starting to hold brands accountable a lot for the causes that they find the people that they hire, a number of companies get taken the task for these sorts of things that have nothing to do with their actual product at all. But if you're hiring someone who might be unknown abuser, for example, that's going to look bad on the brand. Or if you know your your company is funding a politician that might be taken away, or might be funding voting rights or something well taken away voting rights or something like that. These are the kinds of things that people are now keyed into. And they're looking at brands to kind of be these while they're there. They're wanting to make sure that the brands that they support with their dollars are also kind of, you know, in accordance with their values as well. Marc Gutman 14:37 Absolutely. And it's, it's crazy and amazing at the same time to me, I mean, I love the amount of power that consumers have on brands at the same time. Everybody has a voice right? And so how can brands even navigate all this? pressure and criticism to be something Different, right? You can't You can't please everybody all of the time, like, where do you see the challenges for brands in this new landscape? Maurice Cherry 15:09 I mean, I think the biggest challenge that happens is just making sure that you are being consistent with your voice. Often times I've seen brands try to like adopt a certain kind of you know, cheeky haha Twitter voice or whatever, that may be completely discordant with how they treat employees or, or you know how they treat customers or something like that. This is particularly the case I've seen with a lot of tech startups that try to like get in on certain little you know, punny things that are happening. But then something hits the verge where they mistreated a number of employees or something like that. And it's like, oh, you can't be you can't be cheeky and sarcastic on Twitter, and then you're treating your employees like crap, you know, behind the scenes. So I think love just trying to be consistent throughout everything that you're doing is one thing that that companies should think about as they kind of navigate the space, I would, I would also say, you know, it helps to just be agile and nimble, because sometimes these you know, if a certain catastrophe befalls a brand, sometimes it happens completely out of the blue for something they don't even know about. So, for example, say, a company has a particular actor or actress as a spokesperson. And this actor or actress did something on Instagram. Well, the first thing people are going to do, yes, they're going to take that particular actor or actress to task, but then they're also going to take the company to task and think, Oh, well, is this the kind of person that you want speaking for your product? And now it's like, oh, now we have to kind of go into crisis mode, and figure out how do we either distance ourselves from this? Or say, Yes, we are a part of what it is that this actor actress is about, here's what we're doing, as a company or as a brand to support them. So it's, it's tricky, but you have to kind of be, you know, pretty nimble to these sorts of things, because they can happen really out of the blue. Marc Gutman 17:08 Yeah, and there's a lot going on. And so, you know, it really lays out the, you know, the the framework for why a company might need a creative strategist. Yeah, there. It's not just this omni directional unit, or is it? I mean, I guess it'd be one directional conversation. It's not a one way conversation, right, this massive dialogue, and there's comments and insights and, and opinions, ping pong all over from every direction, and to really have someone at a higher level thinking like, how are we going to manage this conversation as something that is no longer a luxury for brands, but really a necessity? Maurice Cherry 17:44 Yeah, there's a lot of thought that has to go into so many things, the imagery that you use the hashtags that you use, the colors that you're using, all of that ends up sort of falling under the purview, usually of creative strategist. And I will say, you know, a lot of advertising firms employ creative strategist as well. So they know fully kind of what it means to have someone that's really thinking about the brand from like this 360 view, but also from this bird's eye view of being able to zoom out and really see all parts of where a particular campaign or something may touch, and realize those sort of points where something may go wrong, or maybe misconstrued and try to figure out a way to kind of circumvent that or fix that issue, you know, so it doesn't occur. Marc Gutman 18:29 Yeah. And so switching gears a little bit, you mentioned that you're in Atlanta. Now. Is that where you grew up? Maurice Cherry 18:35 No, I grew up originally in Selma, Alabama. But I've been here in Atlanta now for a little over 20 years. Now. I came here in 1999. So I've been here for what that's 21 years or something like that. I've been here longer than I've been in Alabama. Marc Gutman 18:56 Well, looking back to Alabama, assuming that you were there when you know, Murray was a young Murray's, like eight years old and you're hanging out. And were you there in Selma when you were eight? Maurice Cherry 19:06 Yeah, yeah, I grew up there. went to elementary, middle and high school there. Cool. Cool. So Marc Gutman 19:11 eight year old Morrison, did he think he was going to be a creative strategist? Maurice Cherry 19:18 I'm pretty sure eight year old Mario had no idea what a creative strategist was. I think eight year old Mario is probably either wanted to be a firefighter. I have an uncle, that's a fire chief. Or probably a writer. Probably one of those two is when I probably wanted to be at that age. Marc Gutman 19:37 Then I was gonna ask, but a writer might fill in this answer. So did you have a tendency towards either creativity or strategy or both? or What were you into at that age and as you started to matriculate through through the years and sama Maurice Cherry 19:54 Oh my god, eight years old. I really was into writing. I mean, that sounds like such an old hobby for a kid but I had been writing probably since around, let's see eight years old. What's that like, second grade, second, third grade, something like that. I have been writing since first grade like stories and also drawing along with them. I have an older brother, he's four years older. And he's really like, the super visual creative in the family, he paints he draws he sculpts. I mean, he's, he's a fantastic artist. And I remember growing up wanting to be like him, but I could not draw, I could do like little stick figures or whatever. I would say my work was very abstract at that age when I look back on it now. But I would draw that I would write these stories that would correspond with the drawings. And I remember, my teachers would give us this sheet of paper where it's like, blank on top, and then there's ruled lines on the bottom. And so you draw whatever top the picture or what have you. And then you write your story. Down below, I remember doing a lot of those, I have a whole, like binder full of those in my storage unit from when I was a kid, like just doing a ton of writing and drawing and exploring, I guess, I mean, trying to explore my creativity in that rather limited space. I mean, Soma is a is a very small town in South Central Alabama, most people know about it from the civil rights movement. I can tell you growing up there as a kid, I mean, it's the country, it's not super fun. Like, there's not, there's no, you know, big amusement parks, or movie theaters and things like that, that you would, you know, kind of hang out and do stuff with as a kid. So it was very much, you having to kind of find your own entertainment, maybe you're hanging out with other kids, maybe you're at home. A lot of people would be in church, because almost a big church town is like 100 plus churches there. So that's usually kind of what you were doing. You were trying to find something to do. Maybe watch TV, let's see eight years old that I haven't intended. I probably had an intent though back then also. So I was most likely playing Super Mario Brothers or pro wrestling. Probably pro wrestling, I was probably star man in pro wrestling back then. Marc Gutman 22:17 Good, good hobby, good hobby. And you mentioned that you know, you were creative with words, your brother visually creative. Were your parents creative? Did they instill this in your Where'd that come from? Maurice Cherry 22:32 Um, no, they're not creative at all. Let me let me take them. I mean, I think you know, as I think parents have to be creative to some capacity, just dealing with children, but they weren't in particularly creative fields. My dad at the time, was an engineer at GE, working on plastics. And my mom was working at the local community college as a lab assistant in the biology department. So they were very much like in the sciences kind of feel. So not a lot of, you know, creativity there, I would imagine, but I did have the opportunity at times to maybe go like with my dad to work or maybe go up my mom to work and like, see where they work and like, see the machines and see the lab equipment and all that sort of stuff, at least get interested in it like, like, know that this is like a possibility for me, perhaps but no one say anything creative. Like we don't think like someone doesn't have any, at least not to my recollection, any art museums or, or anything like that, where you would go and like be overwhelmed with visual creative inspiration. At that age, maybe probably when I was a little older, I certainly remember getting a lot of visual and creative inspiration from magazines. So I think probably when I was maybe about 10, or 11 or so I remember us getting maybe I had to be old enough that maybe I was a teenager at this point. But we would get subscriptions to like zillions magazine, which was Consumer Reports. They had this like kids vertical that they called zillions. And I remember we would get vive magazine and source the source magazine and stuff like that. So I'm gonna get visual inspiration from magazines a lot. Growing up, Marc Gutman 24:18 what an awesome like, sub brand for kids zillions like Maurice Cherry 24:23 yeah, I don't know, if they do that anymore. It was it was like they were teaching kids how to be like, responsible consumers. So they would like for example, talk about fruit juice and say how most fruit juice is not made of actual juice. If you check the labels, it's actually more you know, it's actually water and sugar and all this sort of stuff. So they were kind of like teaching you how to, you know, be a good consumer as a kid. It was like, it was like a kid's magazine about money, which was very interesting. Marc Gutman 24:52 That's so cool. I love it. And as you got older and as you got into high school was this creative like writing And in this creative outlet, was that still coming out of you? Or what were your interests at that time? Maurice Cherry 25:06 It was, I mean, I was all over the place for people that knew me in high school, I was all over the place I was writing. Let's see, I think I was in eighth grade or so. And I started taking college English courses in writing. So I was like, always writing something writing poems and like, getting published and stuff. But also right around seventh or eighth grade, I discovered music. And I discovered why once I discovered music, we had a band in middle school. And I wanted to join the band because the band could get out of sixth and seventh period. And I'm like, Well, I want to get out of 67 period. How do I make that happen? And they had like this open session where you, you know, go to the band room and you choose the instrument like, I remember going in and the band director, Mr. Ruffin would say, like, you know, you choose the instrument and turn the instrument will choose you like you just pick the one that you think you'll do best on it. I really wanted to play trumpet. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna play trumpet, but the mouthpiece was just too small. I just couldn't get the right on the shore. And then my band director switched me over to trombone. And that was like a match made in heaven. That was perfect. So I played music, from seventh grade all the way through high school, all the way through college, all throughout my 20s. I played trombone, in marching bands, and jazz bands and like, house bands, at clubs and all sorts of stuff. So in high school, I was doing music, I was writing. Also just doing class, I was kept in the math club. I was sort of all over the place in high school, doing a lot of different things. I was really though getting more into music, because I'm with the marching band. My band director also allowed me to kind of try my hand at composing. So I would like listen to songs like mostly songs from video games, I would listen to songs like say the fanfare from Final Fantasy when you beat an enemy. And I would say, Okay, how can I turn this into like four parts for trombone. So that means me sitting down on my keyboard, and like, dissecting out each part, and then go into my section, and then we practice it. And then we take it to the game, and we play it at the game and stuff like that. So I got a chance to really sort of cut my teeth with doing a bit of like arranging and composing there. And then my band director also introduced me to so much good music, mostly, like Earth, Wind and Fire. And he was a big Earth Wind and Fire fan. So he introduced me to like their whole catalogue at the time. And we were also playing some popular songs from off the radio. See, this was 95. So we were playing. Like, this is how we do it. For montell Jordan, water runs dry boys to man that might have been 96. But like, we were playing like radio hits, but then also playing like these, you know, well known songs from like the 70s and 80s from Earth, Wind and Fire and stuff. So I was I was all over the place in high school. I really was like, I was always doing something different mostly with the band, though. I think most people knew me for that. But also, I was just like, in class and making A's and you know, it was I, I really enjoyed high school. I enjoy high school a lot. Marc Gutman 28:23 Yeah, and are you still skilled and playing the trombone. Maurice Cherry 28:29 I haven't played the trombone and over 10 years, so I don't know, I would imagine, it's probably just like picking up, you know, like riding a bike, I would suppose because the trombone, unlike other brass instruments has no keys. And so it's just one long, interconnected tube. And it's there's only seven positions to the trombone are not marked either. So you have to know them just by memory. And you have to get the note right really by ear. So like this a lot of like active listening as you're playing. And because you're sort of like varying the length of air in this long tube as you're playing. You don't have a lot of room for error. But you also have a lot of room for improvisation, because you can easily slide in between notes without having to exactly know, the right fingering to get there, you can just get there based on how it sounds. And so like even doing something as simple as the chromatic scale, which you know, takes into account all the flats and sharps, you're just going up and down the slide. And so if you hit an F, then you know, if I need to get down to a flat, I just keep sliding down until I get there. So you sort of in your mind, you know, kind of the connective tissue between the notes that you have to reach. So I say like trombone is easy to pick up but hard to master. Because you have to be thinking about all of that while you're playing. So sad. Marc Gutman 29:49 I thought you would be the first guest that we would have on the Baby Got Back story podcast that would break out the trombone and it doesn't sound like you have one within arm's reach right now. I'll give you I'll give you a pass on that. But Maurice Cherry 30:02 I saw I saw my trombone when I was 30. Because I was like, I'm gonna hang it up because I really wanted to focus on, like, at the time, like, focus on my career and on tech and stuff, and I couldn't be playing, you know, like pickup songs and stuff like that, like I was a session musician for a while about 20s. Like, it's it's fun until it's not, you know, like, it's just not stable. And I don't know, I wonder what I wonder who I would have been if I kept up with it, though. Yeah, I still have kind of in the back of my mind. Like when all this tech stuff is said and done. To start my own Afro Cuban jazz, big bands. That may still happen. Like when I turned 50 maybe I'll I'll make that happen. I don't know. But it's in the cards. Marc Gutman 30:49 The future vision and you know, who knows, maybe we can get a crowdfunding campaign going for Murray's here to get them a new trombone? It's Yeah, seems like you should, you should be playing the trumpet, trombone, and you shouldn't be, shouldn't be selling your trombone. But as you were growing up in so many getting into high school, what do you think you were going to do? I mean, I see that you went to Morehouse, and I'm sure your parents were very proud. Where are they? What were their hopes and dreams for you? And what did you think you were going to do with your life as you were starting to get a little older, and, you know, into high school and looking into college? Maurice Cherry 31:24 So I, this is so interesting, and I don't know if this will make your viewers angry or not, or jealous, I don't know. But like, I was not thinking about, the only thing I was really thinking about at that age was getting out of Selma. That was like, my number one. Main imperative is like, get out of this town. This is a small town, I mean, to kind of give you some context with this. I mean, I came about in the generation right after, like civil rights movement, Bloody Sunday, all that sort of stuff. And so the city itself already has this, like, deep, like, just ghost of history about it everywhere that you go. I mean, Selma itself is a very haunted town, like there's a number of haunted houses and things of that nature, but like to live that close to history, and then also be so detached from the rest of the world is a very eerie feeling. I think about that, in hindsight, you know, growing up, like I really did not know, much of the world outside of Selma, until I left. And I think about well, who would I have been if I stayed there? Like I probably would have, you know, I don't know that a pastor or something. I don't know, who knows. But it's such a small, insular type of community. And it's very easy to like stay in that and never change and never go anywhere and never experienced anything new. For me, the main thing I wanted to do was just get out of Selma. So the reason I say this is because I didn't really have a plan as to what I wanted to do. My plan was just how do I get out of here? What what way do I make that happen? I don't care what the way is, it just has to happen. And so in seventh grade, I remember being part of the, I think it was called the Duke talent identification program, or tip for short. And what they will do is they will take like, high achieving middle schoolers, and you would spend a weekend at Duke University. And then they would also give you an opportunity to take one of the like, standardized tests early being the LSAT, or the a CT. So seventh grade, I took the a CT, and I scored a 30 on it. Now, I think the AC T goes up to a 36. So 30 out of 36 was very good that I think that's like analog to maybe like a high 1400 or low 1500. On the SSAT like it's pretty good. So when I took that in seventh grade, that pretty much wrote my ticket to any school that I wanted to go to. I didn't think at all about like, Oh, I'm really want to go to these colleges, so I have to apply or I really wanted colleges were coming to me. I didn't have to do it. And I don't mean to sound like a bragging sort of way. But I mean, you know, my mom wanted she tell you to like colleges, were contacting us left and right, sending us all sorts of materials. And I was really for me to just think, Oh, well, where do I want to go. And I didn't want to stay in Alabama. Because again, my thing was like I wanted to get out of Selma, but really, I just wanted to get out of like the state and experience something new. But my mom was very much like you know, wherever you go, I'm not getting on a plane. So you have to go somewhere close. Like you have to be still in the south because I'm not getting on a plane. I'm not taking a bus anywhere. It has to be fairly close. And Morehouse ended up being the choice because they came to me on my senior awards day and presented me with two full scholarships, which was more than any other The school had presented me with at the time and I mean, like every major school in Alabama and presented it was like a full ride or something. But I didn't want to go to like, no, no shade to the University of Alabama. I don't want to go to the University of Alabama. I didn't want to go to Auburn. I didn't want to go to Alabama State, no snow shade. The Alabama State. I didn't want to go there. But Morehouse came and Morehouse has this big reputation. And people are like, Oh, well, Martin Luther King went to Morehouse. And, you know, I should go to Morehouse. And I'm like, you know what, I should go to Morehouse. I want to go to Morehouse. And part of the reason of going was one, I knew that was a quick ticket out of out of Selma, but that also, and I think anyone who grew up in the south, probably in the 80s, and 90s, that wasn't near a big city, came to Atlanta at some point, like, there was a field trip to Six Flags, it was all your your class, they were on sa t we're going to Six Flags like everything was going to Six Flags. So there were always all these trips to Atlanta. And Atlanta was always sort of the destination, I think for a lot of us because it was the nearest really big city. Plus around that time. I mean, Atlanta in the 90s was a magical place. I mean, yes, you have the Olympics, but you also had freakness. So you've got like this combination of all this electricity happening in the city. And it was just the place like Atlanta was just the place to be. And so I'm thinking, well, if I can go to Atlanta, and it's a free ride, and I don't have to pay it, my parents will have to pay. Yeah, we'll do it. Let's do Atlanta. And so Morehouse ended up being the choice for me. I didn't even apply to Morehouse, they came to me. And, and the rest is history. Marc Gutman 36:44 A common question I get all the time is Mark, can you help me with our brand? Yes, we help companies solve branding problems. And the first step would be to schedule a no obligation brand clarity call, we'll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wildstorm comm and send us an email, we'll get you booked right away. So whether you're just getting started with a new business, or whether you've done some work and need a refresh, or whether you're a brand that's high performing and wants to stay there, we can help. After you book, your brand clarity call, you'll learn about our brand audit strategy process will identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh, will determine if your business has a branding problem. And you'll see examples of our work and get relevant case studies. We'll also see if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level. So what are you waiting for, build the brand you've always dreamed of. Again, we'll link to that in the show notes. or head over to wildstorm comm and send us an email. Now back to the show. All I could think about when you were talking about music in Atlanta in the 90s was salt and pepper. So that's what it triggered for me. But so you went to Morehouse and sounds like you know, first and foremost, you're like a lot of young people. You're like, I just want to go someplace, I just want to change my life. I just want to start my life, you know, and kind of figure things out. When you got to Morehouse, what did you think you were going to do with with yourself? Maurice Cherry 38:30 Oh, my goodness, you know, I'm gonna be completely honest with you, Mark, I had no plans in college. I'm telling you that back then I didn't plan anything. I was such a easy going go with the flow kind of person to kind of give you a sense of that. I graduated from high school in late May of 1999. And then two weeks later, I packed up moved everything and went somewhere else because the the program that I was a part of for my scholarship, had a summer program is called project space. So I was at Morehouse in June of 99. Like, it was such a magical feeling. I'm like I'm in this big city, by myself. No one can tell me what to do. I could do whatever I want. But of course, it's still like within the confines of college and you have to kind of be, you know, aware of your surroundings. Morehouse is in that it's not in the best neighborhood. I mean, certainly back then it was it was not that great. It's probably better now. But back then it was a pretty rough neighborhood that the school was in so they really wanted to make sure that we stayed on campus where it was safe and not venture out into the neighborhood. But we could easily like catch a bus to the train station and like, go to all parts of the city where the train would go and so you know, the city kind of ended up being like our oyster but when I got there, I mean, I had no plans. I was in the summer program. And we were taking oh my goodness, we were taking like calculus two courses and we were taking care computer programming courses and Spelman, the program that we had on the head of cohort at Spelman College, which is the all female college that's across the street from Morehouse, which is all male college. And so we will take classes together with the girls from Spelman, we would hang out together. But mostly everything we did was kind of in and around. And on campus, like there wasn't a lot of off campus kind of stuff. Except for the people who were from Atlanta who could, you know, like, they could like get in their car, like take us somewhere, like take it to the grocery store or something like that. But they were they really highly discouraged us from going out and about in the city. And then once the school year started proper, I mean, I was just trying everything that I could like I was meeting new people that were into different things that was sort of my first real deep introduction to like anime, and trans music. Was that Morehouse, I was, like I mentioned, I was also still playing trombone. Just like discovering different things and different people, honestly, I mean, I'm just coming from Alabama, just being like this country bumpkin. Like now I'm all of a sudden, meeting all these people from the Caribbean, and from other parts of the country, and like, you know, them being really proud of where they're from, and their culture and everything like that. And so, just getting introduced to so many different things at once made it really, really hard to like, focus, like, I'll be honest, I almost almost flunked out. Freshman year, like first semester was, I was lost in the sauce. As I was going out to the clubs, I was hanging out late. I was getting back to the dorm room 234 in the morning for and then like sleeping for a few hours and then have an eight o'clock, Cal three class like I was reckless. I was so reckless freshman year, and it caught up to me to the point where I ended up getting evicted from my dorm. I was homeless for a slight bit like about a week or two, and then ended up getting placed into another dorm. And then that ended up being like a weird kind of situation, because the rd was kind of a creepy, like kind of a creepy guy, and got moved to another dorm. And then that was weird because my roommate in that dorm clearly had been suffering physical abuse from his roommate, and was very like, I don't know, very jumpy, like, anytime I will come around. And he's like, oh, like, don't you know, don't look at me that way, don't you know or something like that. So freshman year was a lot, at least the first half of freshman year was a lot. During that time. One thing I would say that was like, the stabilizing force outside of my classes was that I had joined a website and started working for them. So there was a website called college club calm. I don't know if people remember college club. And it was sort of like a precursor to Facebook. And basically, every college had their own campus on college club. And you could upload pictures. Every person had like a college club email, and they had this number that you could call that would read your email to you over the phone. There was live chat. I mean, comms club was lit. I mean, they ended up going bankrupt. for good reason. I think at one point, they were giving away like $10,000 a week to people, they were really just like that early, calm money was coming in. But I worked for college club as a campus representative first at Morehouse, and then for the entire Atlanta University Center. So I had three or four other people under me. And we had devised the system. Why am I telling this might be illegal actually know what comes out of the system? Well, that's fine. So we had devised a system where we basically would get paid from college club for every account that was created after every photo that we uploaded. So one of my good friends, good good friends, Chris wrote this macro that would allow us to basically just like dump a bunch of photos into a folder, and they would automatically get uploaded to college club. And so we would get, you know, money for that. And then he also came up with this other macro that will automatically create accounts. So we had these cameras, we have these huge Sony mavica cameras that actually were so big, you had to put a floppy disk in it for storage, like three and a quarter floppy disk. And we would go and take pictures and swap out the disk. And then at the end of the night, we would dump everything into this Network Folder. We run the macro, the macro would upload the stuff from the Network Folder, we would literally be making money while we slept. I mean I was making at that point. roughly about $4,000 a month. Marc Gutman 44:46 Pretty good for a college kid. Maurice Cherry 44:48 This is this is my This was my, like second half of freshman year and I mean, we did not know how to act with that with that much money we were just doing just spending money on just the dumbest stupid shit just like, go to Linux and like, you know, buy a whole bunch of people's stuff in the food court or just buying like extravagant clothes. And so I mean, in hindsight, just dumb, dumb stuff. But at the time, you know, you're 19 was 19 then trying to think now I was 18 and I was 18 then, and just like have money hand over fist. It was it was ridiculous. Um, eventually college club ended up going bankrupt. And so that job didn't last too long. But for the time that we had it, it was great. And so yeah, I didn't really have ambition. My freshman year, I was too busy having fun. Like, we would go out to the strip and take pictures and like, and then I mean, I guess I kind of have to set the scene here. I mean, so the Atlanta University Center is six colleges. It's Morehouse College, Spelman College, Clark, Atlanta University, Morris Brown College, they entered the interdenominational theological center and Morehouse School of Medicine. So like six schools, all together and like this one huge meta campus. And now the schools kind of have their own like, sort of divisions like Spellman, for example, has a huge wall around and it's basically like fort Spellman. But the other colleges, you can easily walk between and through and everything like that. And so the connective kind of tissue between the main colleges is this long brick thoroughfare called the strip. And it's basically just for walking. So like, you know, cars were coming up and down, it was just, you could walk, there were benches, there were booths, all sort of stuff. So you could hang out all day on the strip, and like, people watch, then walk down to seagulls and like, get some wings and then go sit on the bench and listen to some music and then go to the bookstore, go to the library, like everything was just connected in this big, almost like a marketplace. And then on Fridays, at the very end of the strip at Spelman, they would open their gates and you could go into Spelman to their lower courtyard that they called lower manly, and they had market Friday, and they would be DJs. there and dance. I mean, it was so much fun, that you didn't think about class, like class was almost like, why would I go to class, but I could just hang out on the strip all day, you know. So that was very easy. That first year as a freshman and you have money to it was very easy to just get completely sidetracked. And I completely fell deep into all of that. Well, Marc Gutman 47:37 and as we know, Time marches on. And it sounds like you know, had a very similar experience. I went crazy my freshman year and pulled it together primarily because my parents told me I had no choice. It was gonna be big trouble if I didn't. But Time marches on, and you get through Morehouse and like, how did you start a career in creativity and strategy Maurice Cherry 48:00 that really kind of came about almost as a almost as circumstance. So and I'll try to fast forward through, like past like post college on but so I graduated from Morehouse, I didn't have anything lined up like I'm to be completely honest. When I graduated, I had no plans whatsoever, partially because our scholarship program, they pulled the funding from it in 2001, because of 911. So they pulled funding from that and funding went to which was then created the Homeland Security Department. So we didn't have funding to kind of continue out what we thought the end result of our internships and stuff was going to be so with my scholarship program, basically, I would intern for two years for NASA. And then after that, we would get placed at a NASA facility. So in my mind, I'm like, as long as I keep Baba 3.0 I got a job at NASA. So that's all I have to do. jr came along and completely dashed all of that. And so by the time I graduated, I had nothing lined up. I was working at the Woodruff Arts Center, selling tickets to the symphony, and to the art museum into the theater, just like you know, selling old patriots tickets and stuff like that. And they took away the calculator at my station because I had a math degree, which was kind of degrading but whatever. Did that for a little while, left that job, worked at autotrader. Like, as a dealer concierge is basically just like a glorified customer service rep. Did that for a while, quit that job. And then on a whim, I found in the back of our local weekly newspaper, creative loafing. I found a listing to become an electronic media specialist for the state of Georgia, applied for it on a whim, got the job. I worked for there for about a year and a half left went to at&t as a junior designer. What worked my way up to being a senior designer left there in 2008. After Obama got elected, I started my own studio. I did my studio for nine years. And I would say that was kind of the genesis of this whole creative strategy career. Because even though I had my studio where I was doing web design and graphic design and email marketing and stuff like that, I really was able to branch out and do a lot of other creative stuff like I was able to do. Like DNI consulting for tech companies, like I did that for Vox media. For a while I did that with Netflix for a short period of time, did a lot of writing still, like I was still writing during that time. So I wrote four sight points. And for psych five, and I wrote for media B's show for a while I taught classes at the Bri and at Savannah College of Art and Design, I did a lot of different stuff in the studio. And so because I was doing all these different things, like I was gaining all this knowledge and other parts of the, you know, the business and the really in other parts of the industry, and was able to really kind of bring it all together. So by the time I Wow, my studio down in 2017, I knew that there was more that I wanted to do that I couldn't accomplish and sort of the current state that the studio was in. Also the market was changing, like, bespoke web design was sort of going out as more people started to use kind of drag and drop options like a Squarespace or Wix or something like that. So it made more sense for me to kind of phase out of that market and get more into the actual like, strategy portion of it. Because now there are these tools that allow me that allow people to do the things they would pay a designer to do. But the tools don't really give you the strategy behind why you would use certain things or something like that. And so I tried to kind of brand myself more in this strategy route. As I wind my studio down, um, at the end of 2017, I started at a tech startup, or there's a tech company at that time called Fog Creek software as starting, they're just kind of doing content marketing and getting a sense of the business and what they were doing. As I stayed there, they switched over to become the startup called glitch. And then as they were growing, and they look, we're looking to me, as someone that sort of had this thought leadership that was built up to this point, I was able to then kind of come in on a strategy aspect, and then help out with, you know, bizdev opportunities or partnerships or, you know, things of that nature. And so that really kind of set the stage for me to take all of the cumulative knowledge that I gained throughout my studio time and even the time prior to that working for companies and use that to kind of be this this sort of creative thought leadership at a company that needed it at the time. Marc Gutman 52:44 And when did revision path come about? Like how did you get into podcasting? Because it 400 episodes, I'm guessing you were a bit of an early adopter? Maurice Cherry 52:55 Yeah. So I started podcasting, initially in 2005. So I have old shows that will never see the light of day. I have old old shows from back then. And Atlanta, to its credit actually had a very vibrant podcasting. Community back then we had this thing called the Georgia Podcast Network that was put on by this couple rusty and Amber. And I mean, that was big for maybe about five or six years, there were meetups and things of that nature. And it was mostly Georgia, but also included like South Carolina, Tennessee, kind of like that tri state area. So I have been doing podcasting for a while but never really looked at it as a viable thing, then it was sort of this first wave of podcasting. Because, really, it wasn't something that caught on then like people were more so starting to latch on to video. During that time, it wasn't about, oh, we're gonna listen to this podcast. And even then what podcast were normally was just stuff that was on the radio that they didn't put out as an mp3. So like, The New York Times, NPR, etc, would have these little shows. And that's how you sort of picked up on like maybe a radio show that you've missed, you can subscribe to the podcast, which is really just that day is episode that they downloaded and made into an mp3 or whatever. I first started doing revision path in 2013. And at that time, it wasn't a podcast, it was gonna be just an online magazine. I wanted to do something which showcased what black designers and developers were doing in the field like peers of mine, etc. to kind of counteract what I wasn't seeing in design media. And I started doing these long form interviews, maybe about 1500 to 2000 words or so. But it just took so long to put together I was doing it by myself. And it was someone that actually was a reader of revision path is woman named Raquel Rodriguez, who one day wrote me and said that she was a fan of revision paths. She would really like to be on revision path, but wanted to record a podcast. Because she had a podcast that she was doing in Chicago, and at the time, I'm like, yeah, we can record that's fine thinking to myself, I have no recording equipment. So we ended up recording our interview, the very first episode of revision path on my mobile phone, in a restaurant. Terrible quality. I still keep the episode out. I mean, it's somewhat listable, I guess, I don't know. But, uh, that was kind of where the genesis of the podcast started. And then as I continue to keep doing revision path throughout 2013, I would give guests the option to either record, or we could do like the long form interview. So I sort of alternated. And then when 2014 came around, and it was a full year of revision path, I just decided it's just easier to do the podcast, so switched over to becoming a podcast in March of 2014, officially, but when we launched, we still had about, I say, about 15 episodes prior that we had done. So we launched with a pretty big catalog already. So technically, we launched that like, Episode 16. But we have been recording since episode one. Back in June of 2013. Marc Gutman 56:11 Yeah, and as you mentioned, you just recorded your 400th episode, you've been doing this for a while. I'm terrible at math, but it sounds like about eight years or something like that, which is a long time. Like I'm, I think you're gonna be Episode 71 for the baby backstory podcast, and I can tell you, I mean, it's been difficult it you know, sometimes I hear, I hear 71. And I'm like, Ah, that's not that much. But there is a lot of energy, a lot of effort and a lot of time that's gone into it, like 400 episodes, do you ever think like, enough's enough? Are you just gonna keep keep recording? Maurice Cherry 56:48 I mean, at this point, I'm going to keep recording. As we're talking, I've already got episodes recorded through 405. And then I've got five more in the queue. So we're up to like, 409, I think, technically, I, you know, I'll be honest, there's really no shortage of people for me to have on the show, I've got a running potential guests list in the 1000s of people that I could have on the show. And then, of course, folks recommend others, I've started to bring back old guests on the show, just to kind of see what their, their updates have been since they first came on the show, you know, like, so it's been fun to kind of chart that journey, in some ways. And then honestly, as the industry has changed, what the show has really allowed me to do is keep up. Because I mean, at this point, I'm not really a practicing designer anymore. Like I'm not, you know, in Photoshop, or sketch or figma, or whatever. But being able to talk to so many practitioners still keeps me up to date with what's going on, and what are the new technologies? And what are folks talking about? What are folks passionate about? It keeps me up to date with, with that sort of stuff. And also just being able to introduce design still to a whole new generation of people that may not have known that there were people in design who looked like them. People who think like, Oh, I'm just alone in this by myself, and then they can look and see no, you're not, there's like 400 other people here that you're in this thing with? So I don't I personally don't see it stopping anytime soon. I mean, we're still, you know, you know, knock on wood, getting funding and able to keep things going. So I'll keep it going for as long as the industry will have me. Marc Gutman 58:34 Yeah, let's talk about that really quickly. You know, you mentioned that revision path is really this outlet to showcase those those folks who typically aren't showcased and to show people that, hey, there's other people like them out there. Like when you think about revision path, like what's the one thing you want people to know, like, really now about what you're doing with this podcast? Hmm, Maurice Cherry 59:00 that's a good question. I mean, I think, off the top of my head, I would want people to know that this is not easy. And I think people will look at what I'm doing and think that it's pretty easy. And it's not, I mean, I think that might be the case for most podcasters. But for me, in particular, like I've had to continually work and try new things to get to a system that I know works with me and my team, like and it's bulletproof. It's a time to get there, that wasn't just something that I was able to kind of pull out from, you know, from scratch, and it was something I had to build myself. I had to find the right tools to pull in to make sure all of this work. So it's really about that. I would say for any podcast, it's really about building systems that allow you to be able to do this work. I don't necessarily want to say at scale because I think honestly, the the production level that we're doing is not really changed that much over the years. But it's refined to the point where I can take long breaks between interviews and not get burned out from this. And I'd say yeah, like, it's not easy. People will look at me and will look at me and look at the show and think that it's easy like oh, is, it just seems so easy for you to get people to come on the show. I'm like, no, it's still, it. Honestly, it's still a challenge sometimes to get people to come on the show. Just making sure that everything sort of flows regularly. Like, even though we have our system down, that could still be one thing and that system that could cause it all to, you know, tumble like a house of cards or something. So definitely, that it's it's not easy that it's a lot of thought that goes into it. I think people will look at the 400 episodes of revision path and just see like a monolithic set of people. But I mean, there's so much diversity within the people that I have interviewed, whether it's age diversity, whether it's what they do in the industry, years of experience, as men, there's women, there's trans folk, there's folks in the US and the Caribbean, throughout Europe, throughout Africa, throughout Asia and Australia. Like they're, they're everywhere, the thing that sort of ties them all together, is you know, they're practicing designers, or they're practicing techies, or they're doing something creative on the web that is worthy of kind of falling into line with everything that I'm doing with revision paths. So yeah, I would say that's probably the the main thing I think now as the show has started to, I don't want to say become mainstream, I'd say the older that the show gets. I've seen the more people maybe not understand what it is. And I tell people right off the bat, that revision path is a design podcast granted, I do have developers on the show, I have had software engineers on the show. Just lately, like I was talking

BGBS 070: Gregg Treinish | Adventure Scientists | Moving at a Human PaceGregg founded Adventure Scientists in 2011 with a strong passion for both scientific discovery and exploration. National Geographic named Gregg an Adventurer of the Year in 2008 when he and a friend completed a 7,800-mile trek along the spine of the Andes Mountain Range. He was included on the Christian Science Monitor's 30 under 30 list in 2012, and the following year became a National Geographic Emerging Explorer for his work with Adventure Scientists. In 2013, he was named a Backpacker Magazine “hero”, in 2015, a Draper Richards Kaplan Entrepreneur and one of Men's Journal's “50 Most Adventurous Men.” In 2017, he was named an Ashoka Fellow and in 2018 one of the Grist 50 “Fixers.” Gregg was named a Young Global Leader by the World Economic Forum in 2020 and is a member of their Global Futures Council on Sustainable Tourism. Gregg holds a biology degree from Montana State University and a sociology degree from CU-Boulder. He thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail in 2004. In this episode, you'll learn…The creativity, optimism, and persistence required of expeditions translate very well into entrepreneurship and keeping a business profitable over time. Adventure is pursuing passion and pushing your personal boundaries in the outdoors. Quotes[31:05] Adventure is pursuing passion in the outdoors. It's certainly outdoor sport based, but that can be hiking for some people and just adventuring into a place you haven't been before to look at birds, or it can be climbing peaks and skiing down. It's pursuing your own boundaries in the outdoors. [41:08] The cool thing about expeditions for me is not like this, “Ooh, adrenaline-seeking.” That's not my type of Expedition. It's persistence, it's creativity, it's problem-solving. It's “you're in this sh!tty situation, how you can get yourself out?” And it's avoiding those situations to begin with. I think that is exactly what running a business is. [44:09] We've had a tremendous impact on a number of different fields, from antibiotic resistance to microplastics, to improving crop yields, to helping to restore and preserve species that are extirpated from ecosystems. And it's been amazing what we've been able to accomplish in 10 short years, and I'm so proud of the impacts that we've already had. But I'm always thinking about how we do that on a bigger scale, and how we make sure that the data we've collected and the data we will collect are going to have as much impact on as many lives, human and otherwise as possible. ResourcesWebsite: www.adventurescientists.org LinkedIn: Gregg Treinish Instagram: @adventurescientists Facebook: Adventure Scientists Have a Brand Problem? We can help.Book your no-obligation, 15-minute Wildstory Brand Clarity Call now. Learn about our Brand Audit and Strategy process Identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh Determine if your business has a branding problem See examples of our work and get relevant case studies See if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level Book Your FREE Brand Clarity Call Podcast TranscriptGregg Treinish 0:02 So we got a call. Three weeks after we gave that presentation in a parking lot. It's in Salt Lake City at a hotel that since burned down the city Creek in and they were like, can you be in Washington and a month or whatever it was there like Why? And he said if you've been selected as adventure of the Year by natgeo, and we went there and Andy skorpa had gotten it the year before. So he was on stage presenting and talking about it, you know, his year of adventure the year and then looked at us and just said, this will change your life. And I had no idea what he meant that but it did. Marc Gutman 0:45 podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the baby got backstory podcast, we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like to think back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman. What if you could help scientists cure cancer, or develop medicines that save lives? Or find answers to some of our biggest crises that face us today? All while doing what you love doing anyway. I'm Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory, we are talking about adventure in science, and how one adventure brings the two to work together to collect data at scale. And before we get into this episode, I want you to live at scale to adventure and truly feel alive. And that all starts by heading over to Apple podcasts or Spotify and giving us a five star review and rating. By this point in our lives. We all know that algorithms rule the world. And as such apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. But look, we're humans, not robots. So go show that algo that the humans are in control, and rate this podcast. Thank you for your reviews. I do appreciate it. Today's guest is Greg rhenish, founder and CEO of adventure scientists. And as you'll hear, Greg founded adventure scientists in 2011, with a strong passion for both scientific discovery and exploration of helping scientists solve the world's problems wasn't enough. National Geographic named Greg and adventure of the Year in 2008 when he and a friend completed a 7800 mile trek along the spine of the Andes mountain range. He was included on the Christian Science monitors 30 under 30 list in 2012, and the following year became a national geographic emerging Explorer for his work with adventure scientists. In 2013. He was named a backpacker magazine hero in 2015 at Draper Richards, Kaplan entrepreneur, and one of men journals 50 most adventurous men. In 2017, he was named in a shoka fellow, and in 2018, one of the grist 50 fixers. Greg was named a Young Global Leader by the World Economic Forum in 2020. And as a member of their global futures Council on sustainable tourism. Oh, yeah. And he hiked the Appalachian Trail in 2004. And this is his story. I am here with Greg trennis, the founder and CEO of adventure scientist, Greg, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks so much for having me. Yeah. So Greg, let's just get right into it. Like what is adventure sciences? sounds really cool. But like, what is it? Yeah, we're Gregg Treinish 3:57 a nonprofit organization. We're based in Bozeman, Montana. And the idea here is that we want to be the world's greatest field data collectors at scale. So we look for opportunities where we can amplify and accelerate scientists impact and getting them to solutions for the environment. So examples of that are everything from we're creating genetic and chemical reference libraries for trees, so that they can be used by law enforcement to compare seizures or shipments that they think were illegally sourced with the standing trees across a range of species. So you can use genetics to actually compare wood with trees, and it's being used for all kinds of things. And we collected the largest data set on earth for microplastics. We've collected plant life up at 20,000 feet on Mount Everest, which 22,000 feet which was the highest known plant life on Earth, that is being used to inoculate crops and improve crop yields around the world. So we look for these projects where there's a solution tied to it, where data can unlock some solution. And we deploy volunteers from the onshore community to go and get those data. Marc Gutman 5:15 Yeah, and this is the part that I think is really interesting. And I want to make really clear to our listeners is that there are there are these projects where scientists and please correct me if I get this wrong, because I want to, I want to make sure that I put it in, in simple terms, but there's these projects where scientists are like, hey, it would be really cool to grab this plant life from Everest, but there's no way that I can get up there, or I'm not going there. Or it's restrictive, restrictive. And then there's all these adventurers who are like, I'm going to Everest, or I'm going into the Amazon, or I'm going down to Antarctica. And what you're really doing is matching these two parties so that adventurers can help out in this collection of scientific data, wherever they're going. I mean, do I have that right? Is that the what this this is all about? Gregg Treinish 6:00 Yeah, it is, it's a lot more detailed and nuanced than that we've spent a ton of time building these projects and designing them. That's something that is so essential for success of the volunteers as they're out there. But yeah, at the end of the day, there's this army of people who love the outdoors are traveling around the world and have the skill set that can be really useful. And we find them we give them the mission, we train them, and then we deploy them. Marc Gutman 6:29 That is an adventure myself, I mean, I can't think of anything greater than having a purpose behind, you know, beyond just the achievement of whatever we do. And we like to get out and, and, and hit our goals, to have a purpose and to be helping other other scientists and potentially furthering humankind. Gregg Treinish 6:47 That's exactly right. And it's the same for me when I was that on my expeditions. And the reason I started this organization is because of that. It will I had a selfish feeling. I felt really, when I was out hiking the Appalachian Trail, which I did in 2000, for a walk the length of the Andes in 2006, through eight. And on those expeditions, I was just like, Man, I'm spending so much time and couldn't be doing something much more meaningful with this time. How can I get back to these places and really longed for a way that I can make a difference while I get after it? And and that's what adventure scientist is. Marc Gutman 7:24 Yeah, so let's talk about a little bit let's go way back to the younger egg. And have you always as a kid, have you always had a penchant for adventuring? and science or did one come before the other? Gregg Treinish 7:36 I was always fascinated by wildlife and nature, like you know, like most kids are think catching fireflies and Willy bugs and that kind of thing. My family didn't go camping. We didn't like we weren't an outdoors family at all. And it wasn't until I went on a backpacking trip when I was 16 to British Columbia to the Provincial Park, Garibaldi Provincial Park there. And that was where I really fell in love with outdoors and adventure. And it was the first trip and then you know, I did some more backpacking trips and a few things but it wasn't until the Appalachian Trail that I really had a big adventure like that. Marc Gutman 8:20 Yeah. And so you said you didn't grow up camping? What was life like for you? Where did you grow up? Gregg Treinish 8:25 I grew up in the suburbs of Cleveland, East Cleveland and a lot of mountains. No, no, we hills we I grew up skiing on a garbage dump on a covered over garments down. Marc Gutman 8:34 I did too. I grew up in Detroit. So Maui pine knob, you know, inverted trash heaps. That's how I learned to ski as well. Gregg Treinish 8:42 That's right. Ours are called Boston Mills. The coolest adventure from my kid days was those probably 10 years old and skiing at a place called Boston mills and Glen plake, at the time was on his like World Tour or North American tour trying to hit every ski resort across the US and there's this run called tiger and I skied it with Glen plake, when I was like 10, which was the coolest thing ever. And then, years later, after I had become a natgeo adventure of the year, and I met Glenn again at the Outdoor Retailer show in Salt Lake where it was back then. And he remembered me he remembered skiing with me at Boston Mills is like coolest thing ever. For me. Marc Gutman 9:27 That is the coolest thing ever. I love that. And so, you know at 10 years old, you know, skiena, Boston mills and hanging out in Cleveland, did you think that you were gonna make a life and a career out of adventure? If you wouldn't have told Gregg Treinish 9:40 me that I was gonna do that. I had to believe i'd figure out some way to do that. But I would have been surprised that I would have chosen a life of adventure and, and nature and you know, I, I think I was I love Jacques Cousteau and and Jane Goodall. I actually have named my daughter after age. Didn't get all of my son after john Muir. Their middle names anyway. But back then, like, I think I saw him on TV and I, you know, loved that they were doing good by those animals. I used to have a little statues of whales and wolves. But it wasn't like, it wasn't my. I didn't know I was gonna go into wildlife biology or conservation or adventure. It was cool to me, but it wasn't like Michael Jordan was cooler to me than Glen plake at that time. Marc Gutman 10:31 Oh, absolutely. Those were the days. And Jordan was was was a figure against the calves. And so what did you think you were gonna do? Like, what was the plan? Like you're, you know, you're in Cleveland, and you're, you're starting to get older. What do you what do you what was your plan? Yeah, we're Gregg Treinish 10:47 going way back here. I don't know. Let me think like, after I got out of the firefighter astronauts age, I probably didn't want to be an astronaut at some point for sure. I didn't used to, I realized I just said that. It wasn't like my obsession, or anything I did used to think wildlife or marine biologists were incredibly cool. And I did have a period of time when I said I'd be a marine biologist, for sure. I don't know, a lawyer, like my dad's a lawyer. Maybe I was gonna be aware. I don't know. I don't know. I think I always knew I would run my own business that I would probably start something or run something. I never really took direction. Well, which is what that's probably about. I definitely had a period of marine biologist, I think that was pretty consistent. I can't remember what those ages were. Or why even other than maybe TV shows about the ocean and thinking that was super cool. I had a big cousin who was a surfer, and maybe that was part of it. I have a big cousin who's a surfer? Maybe that was part of it. I don't know. Marc Gutman 11:58 Yeah, you know, my father's a lawyer, too, out of the Midwest. And all I got out of that was Don't be a lawyer. That's what he was told me. He was like, Don't do this. And he loved it. He was just like, there's too many lawyers and go do something. Go do something different with yourself. But so when you when you left Cleveland, when you when you when you left high school, would you go do? Yeah, Gregg Treinish 12:16 I actually got I went to Boulder. And was a junior because I had gotten kicked out of high school and started going to junior college in Cleveland when I was 16. And so I got a two year headstart and went out to Boulder as a junior and had just two and a half years there, moved up to Breckenridge from there and started being a ski instructor raft guide, live in the ski bum lifestyle for a while. And then when I went and hiked the Appalachian Trail, there wasn't this moment that I've talked about frequently, but it was halfway through. And I was pretty low. I'm just asking myself like, what the hell am I doing out here and worn down and it had rained for God knows how many street days. And I just had this one moment where I picked up a rock constructed at a tree and just started sobbing and fell down in frustration and kind of vowed a life of service in that moment. That was where I really decided that I was really fortunate growing up, you know, we weren't, we certainly weren't living in bel air or anything, but we were fine. And my dad did well, and my mom was a teacher and did well. And I just think that living a life of purpose really matters. And it was kind of that moment that helped me see that it had been building up to that, obviously. So I went and worked in wilderness therapy and worked with kids who had struggled and I was I struggled as a teenager, for sure, and was labeled an at risk youth and all kinds of things. And so I thought that would be my passion. But the more I was in the outdoors, exploring the more I I realized how much I wanted to understand what I was seeing and understand the ecology around me. But that my passion is really for representing all those creatures that don't have a voice and representing nature and wildlife and the environment. Because I think it's one of the greatest atrocities what our species is ever has done to every other species on the planet. I think every other species who were here in many cases before us have been completely disrupted by humans. And I'd really love us to find ways to live in more balance with the rest of the species on this planet. Yeah. And in getting Marc Gutman 14:36 back to that moment of frustration on the 80 what do you think triggered that? What what brought that all about? Like, where would your life been going? Gregg Treinish 14:45 Yeah, I mean, I did have the opportunity to go and spend some time in South Africa when I was a kid and I traveled a little bit and just saw poverty and saw how other people live and realize that my life is not like everybody else's in the world. And I even saw that in the Appalachians, right. Like in the southern Appalachians, man, like, they're that lifestyle is different than suburbia in Cleveland. And so I just was exposed to that. And it really struck me like, Man, I'm so lucky. The fact that I can go hiking for six months, I feel really lucky, you know, I worked my butt off to receive up enough money to be able to pay for it and, and have always had a really strong work ethic. And yet I was given such a head start at life, when I think I realized that then and, and I just felt like, as I said, selfish for being out there and not doing anything beneficial. I was maybe inspiring a few people to get off the couch. But that wasn't what I meant by living a life of purpose. And I think it was a combination of exhaustion and being out physically exhausting myself every day mentally exhausting myself. And when you hike like that, when you're on an expedition, and this is still true for me today is is 99% of what you're doing is just this mental gymnastics, you're constantly looking at relationships and interactions you've had, and it's reflective by nature, because you're you're just you're brought down to the core, right? Like, you're depleted and your and your emotional. And so it was a lot of that. And it was it was thinking about that privilege, combined with the exhaustion, I was feeling that I had a pretty low point at that moment. And decided that that what mattered to me most at that point in my life was that my life mattered, and that my life was gonna be about others. And not just myself. Marc Gutman 16:56 Yeah, and so you had some time in wilderness therapy, and I'm familiar with how that works, and what that's all about. And, you know, for people that don't know, that's where a lot of times at risk are other other kids that are working through things go. And it's in a therapy environment. So there are therapists, and it's in using kind of the, the everything, Greg just talking about getting outside really, really revealing yourself, and figuring some things out. So it's great, great programs, and you're doing that. But there comes a point where you and a friend go on a massive trek across the Andes. How does that come about? And what's what's the purpose behind that? Yeah. Gregg Treinish 17:37 So on the Appalachian Trail I just absolutely fell in love with with going at a human pace. You know, when you're on a bike, you got to get off that bike to go and talk to somebody, same thing on a horse, same same thing with really any other mode of travel. But when you're on foot, you just, you're there in the moment, right, like you're moving at the way our brains evolved to move. So something about that really captured me. And then this idea of Expedition travel like long distances, you know, the Appalachian trails Georgia domain, which is quite a large distance and the topography changes so much that the ecosystems changed so much. So, I just fell in love with that. After about two and a half years working wilderness therapy, I really wanted more of that I really wanted some more personal adventure and more introspection and, and I wanted to do it in a place where I was going to be exposed to new languages to new 20,000 feet. It wasn't and we looked all around the world, right? Like I looked at, there's a long trail in New Zealand, there's this trail of the Great Divide trail, which I'd still love to do someday up in Canada, but Marc Gutman 18:55 none of them were Gregg Treinish 18:57 as enticing as the Andes because the Andes was, again 20,000 feet, the Amazon ketua Myra, the Incan history that was there. expanish. Obviously, throughout it, the Atacama Desert really intrigued me. And it was just this. There was so much I just finished reading into thin air, which takes place in the quarter whitewash. And obviously didn't want to have that kind of experience there. But it was just this this one thing after another and then at some point, I'm sure there was just a confirmation bias taking over where that was where we had to go. And so I've researched it and we researched it and and I reached out to about 10 friends and in the end, there was just the one friend Dale who was last who is like, yeah, I'll go and it was excited to go. And yeah, we thought there would be hundreds of people doing it. We thought there would be so many and it turns Marc Gutman 19:56 out we were the first to ever do it. And how long did that Taking is that how then you were recognized as adventure of the year because you were the first to to make that Trek. Gregg Treinish 20:07 Yeah, it was 667 days or 22 months that it took us to do it straight, straight, with the exception of three weeks when I came home with typhoid fever to recover from typhoid fever. So I flew home. And then we went right back after about three weeks. And, and I had other diseases along the way that I probably should have come home for, but I did. So yeah. And then the recognition from natgeo was for that track. I don't know if it was as much because we were the first or just because how we did it, we kind of went down with no plan. And the plan was just to go to the equator and head south. And and we did, we thought we would probably have to skip the Atacama Desert, we figured out a way to do that. We again didn't know we would be the first to do it, we just kind of along the way realize that nobody else had done it. There was no information about it. There was three other guys who had done heights, the length of South America, Kyle Busch, B. We actually did it through all the Americas and then got arrested in Russia, once he crossed the Bering Strait. But he had done it on on frontcountry. Really with cart, George meegan in the 70s had done it with a card and then Ian Reeves had just finished it hiking mostly on roads and knowing known pathways. So we were the first to really do it off trail off. We were on trails as much as possible. There's aren't that many trails. And we were trying to stay as close to the spine of the Andes as we could without Marc Gutman 21:46 relying on roads. And so what what happens when your adventure of the year like what don't mean now Gregg Treinish 21:54 you get a call. So that happened because I gave a presentation in a parking lot at that Outdoor Retailer. So that I mentioned earlier for granite gear, who was a sponsor, a sponsor, they gave us some free packs. To me, that was a sponsor that I wrote like 300 letters to companies and three wrote back and I was like kotula steri pen and granite gear. So we got a call. Three weeks after we gave that presentation in a parking lot. It's in Salt Lake City at a hotel that since burned down the city Creek in and they were like, can you be in Washington in a month or whatever it was. And we're like, why? And he said, You've been selected as adventure of the Year by natgeo. And we went there and Andy skorpa had gotten it the year before. So he was on stage presenting and talking about, you know, his year of adventure the year and then looked at us and just said this will change your life. And I had no idea what he meant then, but it did. It was amazing. Marc Gutman 23:00 In what ways I mean, I'm sure you can't say all of them, but like, how did it change your life? Like, like what happened? Yeah, Gregg Treinish 23:07 right. Like I can't say all cuz I don't know, like, I don't know what my life would have been the other way right without that. But what it did is give me access to World Class explorers, it gave me a credential to be able to really have some momentum behind what I wanted to do and and my path from there. I hadn't known that I was gonna start this when I got adventure year by any means. But it gave me the, I guess the credibility to be able to start adventure scientists. And yeah, it was from deepening the relationship in that geo and being able to lead expeditions around the world to having some public awareness about what we had done, being featured in magazines and stuff like that really gave us the the, again, the opportunity to then go out and get additional sponsorship to do biological expeditions, which we started doing after that. And it just, it was just the opportunity. It was a stepping stone for sure. Marc Gutman 24:16 A common question I get all the time is Mark, can you help me with our brand? Yes, we help companies solve branding problems. And the first step would be to schedule a no obligation brand clarity call, we'll link to that in the show notes or head over to wild story comm and send us an email, we'll get you booked right away. So whether you're just getting started with a new business, or whether you've done some work and need a refresh, or whether you're a brand that's high performing and wants to stay there, we can help. After you book your brand clarity call, you'll learn about our brand audit and strategy process will identify if you need it. A new logo or just a refresh, will determine if your business has a branding problem. And you'll see examples of our work and get relevant case studies. We'll also see if branding is holding your business back, and can help you get to the next level. So what are you waiting for? Build the brand you've always dreamed of. Again, we'll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wildstorm comm and send us an email. Now back to the show. Yeah, and that's, that's a great segue. So like, what was the impetus or the inspiration or the lightbulb moment for adventure scientists, because your things are going good, right? Like why? Why why start this business? Yeah, so Gregg Treinish 25:46 I totally kill it, I think just continued doing mega expeditions and, and live that life and now would have been incredibly fun. But as I said, like, purpose was what really mattered to me and the enemies. You know, ostensibly, we're, we are trying to learn about sustainability and and we're really passionate about human sustainability. Even then, you know, we learned a lot we saw people who had been living with traditional methods of light of agriculture and and solar cookers and all kinds of things, we learned a ton there, how to treat water with just the pop bottle, throw it up on your roof, and UV light works like pretty cool. So there was some purpose there. And we had hoped to share some of the lessons we learned. I think we were in our early 20s. And, and still, like a new adventure, and a little naive as to how real change happens in the world. But anyway, on that trip, I was asking myself like what's next, and really fell even deeper into the ecology space and thought I would work with lions and learn how to save lion some way and wrote a professor Scott Creel, who's here and asked if I could come study, how to save lions with him, and came up here and started working on my second degree, which was in wildlife ecology. And started before I ever made it to Africa with Scott, I started tracking links, and Wolverines, and grizzly bears here. So I'd go out on my boss's truck and take his snowmobiles out and would park as far as we could go. And then I'd hop on my skis, and go for two or three days following Wolverine tracks and documenting their behavior and collecting DNA samples. And it was awesome. What a fun trip, or projects really. And then we were I started working on owls in California, and I worked with other species, and just really felt like I was making a difference. And using my outdoor skill set to do it. In my outdoor skill set, let's be clear, I'm not a world class climber. I'm not a I'm not really good at any sports, I just have persistence and creativity and optimism was, is so translatable to the business world and what I do now. But anyway, yeah, I was doing those things and feeling good about it. But it just occurred to me that if we could rally, others who love the outdoors and get them to do it, the impact would be so much bigger. I had also been taking biological expedition. So I've worked with some scientists. In the course of my degree, they actually used it for part of my degree and developed a protocol to put my brain in the in the headspace of a grizzly bear Wolverine and make decisions like they would make as they moved across large landscapes. And so I walked from the eastern end of Yellowstone to the western end of Idaho, which is about 600 miles and a month, and tested these least cost path analyses or predictions on how wildlife will move across the ecosystem and documented how many fences they have to cross and got a lot of information that way. And then went on to do expeditions in Mongolia tracking Wolverines. And, and I just saw that that there was this real opportunity to mobilize people who wish there was a way they could give back, we thought it would be cool to do that, at least, maybe they didn't have the same selfish feeling I did, but they thought it would be meaningful and cool to do that. And then I was doing these things as a scientist that I didn't know much about, like, take seven years of training to learn how to track hours and it didn't take seven years of training to learn how to identify Wolverine tracks. So I just knew that that possibility was there and I googled how do you start a nonprofit and reached out to Conrad Anker, who's one of the world's greatest mountaineers here in Bozeman and he said he joined my board and then it was just one thing after another with Conrad, I was able to get Celine Cousteau and john Bower master and and Ross savage who's the first person to row across all three oceans and first woman to row across the Pacific and Atlantic. And I just got these heroes of mine together and and started doing started figuring out how do you run a nonprofit? Marc Gutman 30:15 It's incredible. And, and I want to pick that up there. But as you're talking, it also really dawned on me. And you may have a different definition than most people have two words. And so I'd like you to think about, like, how do you define adventure or an adventure? And then how do you define science or scientist? Because you were just talking like, to me, a scientist is someone with a bazillion years of training and they wear a lab coat and they you know, and they do all this stuff. But clearly, you found sort of a different definition. Yeah, Gregg Treinish 30:53 so adventure. First of all, like, I think it's more traditional than than not, I don't know, Explorer is a different term and is pushing any boundary in my mind. But adventure is is pursuing passion in the outdoors. It's it's like, it's certainly outdoor sport bass, but that can be hiking for some people and just like, adventuring into a place you haven't been before to look at birds, or it can be climbing peaks and, and skiing down or whatever. Yeah, it's pursuing your own boundaries in the outdoors is my definition of adventure adventure. People who volunteer for us are everything from day hikers to World Class climbers. So it's a huge spectrum. Scientists are scientific, you know, I do think it takes training, I do think it takes method and following a scientific process. But man, there are field technicians, which is what I was a field technician that are doing real science and really important science and our volunteers are doing science and really important science. So would they call themselves scientists? No. What a lot of people allow me to call myself a scientist, absolutely not. No way. Any PhDs who are listening to this, like, I get it, you guys are scientists. I am a wannabe for sure. But it's like I hang around a lot of scientists and I've learned a lot about science and how science works. And, and it's exploration, right, it's under, it's pushing boundaries. It's looking at things with a new lens, it's looking at things with innovation and technology and entrepreneurial spirit behind it. You know, at the end of the day, I'm not really an adventure. Most I'm an adventure, but I'm not a scientist, I am an entrepreneur, I'm a community organizer. I bring people together with a common purpose and a common goal. And make sure they have the skills that they need to be successful. In order to go out and pick up animals, cats so that a Harvard Medical School can read research, I can look at them for antibiotic resistance, you don't have to be a PhD, you have to know how to identify scat. Like say this is poop, you don't even have to know whose poop it is. And you have to be trained how to properly pick it up. So you don't can't contaminate the sample. That's not rocket science. It's important, it's meaningful. It's contributing to science. But you know, so you're a citizen scientists or community scientists you're not a you're not a PhD Nobel Prize winning scientists for doing that though. Marc Gutman 33:38 No and and I wouldn't make that assertion right but the the idea that we can be additive that we can use our day hiking our adventures these things that you know, I have the same feeling I feel self for sometimes when I'm up in a helicopter going through a mountain or you know, doing whatever, it's, it's really an amazing opportunity. And, you know, a moment of confession, my 11 year old daughter and I last night we were doing a word game around poop yet it's a different word for poop. And scat was one that you know, I had that helped to stump her but to think that you know, us having this like, you know, how many words can we come up with poop? that we could go out and be additive to a harvard medical researchers project is really empowering and really amazing. So when you started this business, you googled it you got Connor at anchor, you got some other famous people to help me your board and give you some visibility. I mean, was it an immediate success? Did it take off or what happened? Gregg Treinish 34:36 Yeah, it was pretty cool. Like so that was in January or February maybe it was late January, and then by May, we have collected the highest known plant life on Earth, up to 22,000 feet and we started that got a bunch of press. And then it was like one thing after another there was people rolling across the Arctic Ocean and we met up we connected them with a researcher looking at whale olfaction and playing plankton and trying to understand how whales track points and and then we, we had projects that would just build back then it was actually the adventurers who were saying, like, I'm going here, I'm doing this, I'm going there, what do you have for me to do? And then I would find a researcher and put them together, we realized after some time that the impact, there's tough, you've got these one off expeditions, in many cases, yeah, you get some great samples for scientists. But what we do now is everything is driven by the scientists. So the scientists come to us and they say, I need samples from here, I need this many samples over this period of time. And the real value proposition is scale, they can't get the temporal or spatial scale that we can get, and certainly access to these places, too. But there's a lot of scientists, scientists go into this because they love the or these field scientists do. Science is a huge, huge category, obviously, everything from solving the pandemic to field biologist studying tree kangaroos and Papa New Guinea. But so a lot of them do have outdoor skills. But the reality is, is you can go to one peak, and you raise a ton of money and to be to be able to do that you get a grant to be able to do that. And it's $40,000 expedition and go climb one of these Himalayan peaks. And what we do is, it's like, oh, you need data from every 8000 meter peak on the planet, or in the Himalaya, you need data from everything above 6000 meters on the planet, it's just not possible any other way. And so when we flipped it and started being scientist driven, the impact really became clear and what this organization can be really started to crystallize. Marc Gutman 36:46 Yeah, and what is your sort of day to day in life? Like is the CEO and founder Are you just off on expeditions hanging out? Like just you know, hanging off a mountain being cool? Or like, what's what's your day to day? Like? Gregg Treinish 36:59 Yeah, no, I am doing that I, I try to do at least one awesome adventure every year. And and I have two small kids. So admittedly have have slacked at that a bit. I've had to do Alaska on attended packraft this year, in the Brooks Range. But those are the exception. Those are the most fun parts of my job, for sure. I raise money, I manage a team, I set vision and strategy. I work on developing new projects and finding leads working with our networks, through the World Economic Forum, or TED or National Geographic, to come up with new projects, and what's going to be the most impactful work with our donors on understanding the opportunities that their connections could provide on partnering with them to build these projects and actually get them off the ground. I spend a lot of time managing the team and dealing with the, the ups and downs of that. And yeah, and and thinking strategically about what's next what the chess pieces are, and what the moves are, that are going to help grow this organization and help it reach its potential. Marc Gutman 38:18 Yeah. And so is there anything that you didn't share? that reveals like, what's hard about this, like, what's hard about running a nonprofit that not only just a nonprofit, but that one that deals with kind of this idea of adventure in science and putting it all together? Like, what, what's hard about this thing? Gregg Treinish 38:36 Yeah, there's the kind of the basic layers of everything that any business owner or entrepreneur deals with, right? It's like, you got to sell your idea, you got to market your idea, you got to have proof of concept. You have to, you know, have good market strategy and all this. So it's those basic things for sure. I think nonprofit is not always taken as seriously in the business community. I think there's challenges with that. Yet, we have a fee for service revenue stream, too. So I've had to build out the business model on the business as well. We also have philanthropic support, which has been essential to our success. With a with a for profit, you take on investment, and you know, and that really to get it off the ground. You can't do that with a nonprofit, you can't sell equity in the company. And so you have to be profitable from day one. That that's a huge challenge. You have to be in the black every year, unless you've got a reserve fund, which we now do, but you've got to build that up and it's taken a decade to be able to even think about spending more than we make in a year. So that's a huge challenge. I think that the the competition with for profit for getting talented individuals is real. You know, by being able to take on that debt and can offer bigger salaries right away, it's hard to compete with those salaries, though, I'm really proud of what we can offer our staff now. But it's taken a long time to get there, I spent the first nine months doing this selling bumper stickers. So I would like I brought those three letter like BGN, bumper stickers to Bozeman, and nobody was selling me here. So I print off a bunch. And then I'd walk around to the people who sell bumper stickers and then say, Hey, you know, I didn't tell him this, but it was, Hey, I just bought these for 30 cents, you want them for $1. And they would sell them for $4. And it was like, that's how I had enough money to eat. So it took starting the second business to be able to do that. And I didn't pay myself until probably September of that first year. And that was eight bucks an hour. So it was it was a long slog to do that. And then I think by March, I was able to hire my first employee. So it's it's been slow incremental growth. And, you know, it's no different than adventure and expeditions to like, the cool thing about expeditions for me is not like this, like, ooh, adrenaline seeking. That's not my type of Expedition. It's its persistence, its creativity, its problem solving. It's you're in this shitty situation, how you can get yourself out. And it's avoiding those situations to begin with. I think that is exactly what running a business is. It's looking ahead and coming up with where you're headed and your route or your strategy, and it's avoiding pitfalls and trying to see around corners, and then inevitably, you're in shitty situations that you didn't foresee. And it's using creativity, optimism and persistence, navigate around those things. And keeping a clear head while you're doing it and making sure that you're looking at all options, getting advice where you can, can't always do that on expeditions, but you can sometimes, and and looking at people who have been there before you so that you're not reinventing the wheel all the time. So it translates really well. Absolutely. And you must be doing something right, because I'm doing the math correctly. Marc Gutman 42:14 Your business is coming up on 10 years, or did you just celebrate 10 years of Yeah, January Gregg Treinish 42:20 this year was our 10th anniversary, and we're using the whole year to celebrate our 10th Marc Gutman 42:25 year anniversary. Congratulations. That's an amazing accomplishment. Most businesses don't make it to like year two. So to make it 10 years is huge. So 10 years for adventure scientists, what you mentioned a big part of your, your job is thinking about the future, thinking about the future vision. What What's next? What's the future for adventure scientists? What's that look like? Yeah, we Gregg Treinish 42:47 want to be the greatest data collectors at scale on the planet. And we've got some work to make that true. We want to gain experience internationally and are exploring projects in many different fields, but in timber and, and in wildlife connectivity and in agriculture, and really helping to improve crop yields using natural nature based solutions is the field. And we're looking at how to really do that, with this organization. And what we've built here has incredible potential to accelerate impact accelerate the ability for our species to operate with less impacts with less negative impact on the planet. And I there's this line in a Bronx tale, which is great movie from God knows when in the 90s I think and Robert De Niro's in it, and he's talking to his son, and it's, there's nothing worse than wasted potential. And that's what this organization is, isn't certainly not wasted potential, but so much potential, and is just look forward to the future of us becoming a real resource for problem solvers to get there quickly, more quickly than they otherwise would. And we're not we already there. And it's important to recognize the accomplishments already. And it's important to recognize that we've had a tremendous impact on on a number of different fields, from antibiotic resistance to microplastics, to improving crop yields to helping to restore and preserve species that are extirpated from ecosystems. And it's been amazing what we've been able to accomplish in 10, short years, and I'm so proud of our impacts that we've already had. But I'm always thinking about how we do that on a bigger scale and how we make sure that the data we've collected and the data we will collect are going to have as much impact on as many lives human and otherwise as possible. Marc Gutman 44:47 Yeah. And so with that in mind, if people want to help you collect data at scale, how do they get involved? How do they learn more about adventure scientists? Gregg Treinish 44:56 Yeah, adventure. scientists.org is a great place to go where on all the social media channels on adventure scientists, as well, you know, we need a lot of people, this is a movement, and we need a lot of people working together to make it happen. It's the volunteers. Absolutely. If you like being in the outdoors, we don't always have project everywhere on Earth, we are working towards that, and hope for that to be true at some point. But we have great opportunities to use your outdoor skills to further a number of different fields. And we need money to do what we do. We need that through philanthropy and and also through projects. If you're scientists who could benefit from data collection at scale, you got to reach out to us talk to us, we also really need a lot of business acumen that like I said, we're building the fee for service revenue stream at the same time that we're learning how to market our overall mission and overall organization better, as well as marketing these projects better. So we need support like that as well. advice, and, and connections. So we welcome everybody to come and reach out through the website. And I'm Greg and adventure scientists.org. So people can email me as well. Marc Gutman 46:17 Fantastic. And we'll make sure to link to all those resources in the show notes. So it makes it really easy for people to click and be able to, to contact you and either volunteer, donate or help in other ways. So Greg, as we come to the end of our time here, I'd love you and I, we kind of touched on this, but I'd love you to think back to that that young version of yourself whose skin at eight years old and living in Cleveland, and, you know, what do you think he would say, if he saw you today? See, cool, do more. Gregg Treinish 46:51 I don't know. He'd say, that's pretty cool, man. I think he would be proud of me. You know, more importantly, I think I've got an amazing wife and two amazing kids and the organization is is great. But I think that those other things matter as much to me and, and my family, my parents are still with me. And I'm amazing. And my brothers, my little brothers just had a baby two days ago. And I'm really close with both my brothers. And I think those are the things that matters much to me as anything I've built at work, and it's just one part of a much broader picture for me. So I think he would be proud that all those things are true for me today too. Marc Gutman 47:37 And that is Greg reinisch, founder and CEO of adventure scientists. I love this idea that we as those that love the outdoors can help contribute to science by doing what we love. I want to stress that you can be an Everest mountaineer, or a day hiker or anything in between. Adventure scientist probably has a project for you. Congratulations to Greg and the entire team that adventure scientists is they celebrate their 10th anniversary this year. Here's the 10 more 10 more years of creating impact. This is truly the entrepreneurial spirit, rewriting the script and impacting our world. The big thank you to Greg trench and the team it adventure scientists. We will link to all things Greg and adventure scientists in the show notes. If you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line that podcast@wildstorm.com our best guests like Greg come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstorm.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. A lot big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can't deny ‍

BGBS 069: Don Wenner | DLP Real Estate Capital | How Do You Instill Grit?Don Wenner is the founder and CEO of DLP Real Estate Capital, a multi-faceted company that leads and inspires the building of wealth and prosperity through the execution of innovative real estate solutions. DLP Real Estate Capital is the parent company to 7 subsidiary companies with the purpose to “Dream. Live. Prosper.” They are located in Pennsylvania and Florida and conduct business throughout the United States.   DLP has been ranked in the Inc. 5000 fastest growing companies in the US for 8 consecutive years. They have earned the #3 spot for Americas' Fastest Growing Companies 2020 in the real estate and property category by Financial Times and have been named by The Wall Street Journal as one of the top 15 real estate firms in the U.S. for the sixth straight year, including the #1 team in PA and NJ for sales. Don has built a track record of generating consistent profits in all market conditions and cycles. In less than 10 years, he has grown his business to over $100 million in annual revenue, and in less than 15 years, he has amassed over $1 billion in assets under management. His company has grown by 60% every year for the past 13 years. Since DLP's founding in 2006, they have closed more than 16,000 real estate transactions totaling $4 billion+ and have over 500 loans in our portfolio. They currently have over 1,000 real estate investors and a portfolio of 11,000 units. Don is also an author and speaker. His first book, Building An Elite Organization: The Blueprint to Scaling a High Growth, High-Profit Business, along with its companion – The Elite Journal was published in April 2021. In 2019, he founded the DLP Positive Returns Foundation, focused on making a monumental impact on two epidemics: the creation of well-paying, stable jobs and providing safe, affordable housing. DLP has made a pledge to donate ¼% of all capital, ¼% net revenue, 100% of all book proceeds, and 100% of all American Institute of Investment Housing (AIIH) proceeds to the Foundation. They are focused on raising $1 million by the end of 2021. Don studied Finance and Marketing at Drexel University, in Philadelphia, PA. He and his wife, along with his two young sons, reside in St. Augustine, FL where he is active in faith and community. He is passionate about fitness & health, devours books on a weekly basis, and enjoys many outdoor activities and discovering new places with his family. He also spends time at his homes in Asheville, NC and Bethlehem, PA. In this episode, you'll learn…Many Americans are struggling with depression and feelings of inadequacy from the current state of the world. As a leader, you can bring significance and happiness into your team member's lives by helping them live fully and feel connected to an impact bigger than themselves. Every problem is a leadership problem at its core. Affordable rent has skyrocketed disproportionately from the slow rise of income in the US, on top of many future jobs being lost to automation. It's a challenge to keep housing affordable without sacrificing a decent standard of living in this age of inflation, but DLP Real Estate Capital is committed to doing so. ResourcesWebsite: dlprealestate.com Instagram: @don_wenner LinkedIn: Don Wenner Facebook: Don Wenner Quotes[9:45] I do believe that grit is what separates the most successful people in the world from everybody else. And I believe that's a fact, not a theory. But the question is, how do you instill grit? How do you instill that drive? [19:09] What I believe is every organization has four quadrants: their strategy, people, operations, and acceleration — acceleration is sales and marketing integrated — and you need to be able to grow all of that together, part of one plan in order to be able to grow consistently and profitably. [28:45] I believe it's our job as leaders to help our team members connect their day to day work with making impact bigger than themselves…and we focus heavily on helping our team members live fully across the eight F's of life, which are faith, family, friends, freedom, fun fulfillment, fitness, and finance. [37:34] The first fundamental part of the challenge is aligning what's good for society or the world with what's good for us or for our investors and trying to align that always because a lot of real estate — good, great companies — are actually a part of the problem, not the solution. Have a Brand Problem? We can help.Book your no-obligation, Wildstory Brand Clarity Call now. Learn about our Brand Audit and Strategy process Identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh Determine if your business has a branding problem See examples of our work and get relevant case studies See if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level Book Your Brand Clarity Call TODAY Podcast TranscriptDon Wenner 0:02 You know, that sort of taken off so we couldn't we didn't have enough capital. So I launched private investment funds and started taking in capital into our funds. And then we start having too much capital more than we could deploy. And we said, well, how do we help other people trying to run businesses similar to us and we started in lending money to others do a running business similar to as other real estate investors. So it's happened in a very natural manner of progression off of helping home sellers and are beginning days. Marc Gutman 0:34 podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman. How in the world can anyone afford housing expenses these days, the market is going crazy and the rising cost of housing is far outpacing the rise in wages. It's truly the crisis of our time. I'm Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Back story we are talking about, you guessed it, real estate, housing, and living fully. And before we get into this episode, I want you to live fully. I want you to excel in all eight apps, you're going to need to listen today's episode to understand what that truly means. That all starts by heading over to Apple podcasts or Spotify, and giving us a five star review and rating. By this point in our lives. We all know that algorithms rule the world. And as such apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Show that algo who's boss and rate this podcast, own the algorithm. Don't let it own you. Thank you for your reviews. I do appreciate it. Today's guest is Don Wenner founder and CEO of DLP real estate capital. And as you'll hear DLP capital has $1.6 billion in assets under management and they are on track to be a fortune 500 company. You could say they are going places. DLP real estate capital is a multifaceted company that leads and inspires the building of wealth and prosperity through the execution of innovative real estate solutions. DLP real estate capital is the parent company to DLP elite DLP Capital Partners DLP lending, DLP realty DLP, real estate management, Alliance servicing and Alliance property transfer and they are located in Pennsylvania and Florida and conduct business all throughout the United States. So what does all this mean? DLP is taking on the workforce housing crisis head on. They're on a mission to align affordable housing with investor returns. no easy task. In addition to running DLP, Don winter is an author and speaker. He is passionate about fitness and health, devours books on a weekly basis and enjoys many outdoor activities in discovering new places with his family. And this is his story. I am here with Don Wenner, the CEO of DLP capital. Don, welcome to the show. Don Wenner 3:40 Hey, thank you, Marc. Really excited to be here. Marc Gutman 3:42 Oh, really excited to have you before we get into it. Can you tell what is DLP capital? Like? What do you guys do? Don Wenner 3:50 We do it we do a few things. So So yeah, so DLP capital is the parent company to about a dozen operating businesses that operate under the DLP brand. And then short we're a private real estate investment and financial services company. easier way to say it is we invest in, in housing, specifically workforce housing, and then we do a lot of different ways we do that and execute on that. And we're really focused on, you know, making an impact on the affordable workforce housing crisis in America today. Marc Gutman 4:21 Yeah, and affordable housing. It's a topic that I'm sure we'll get into deeper later in the episode, but it's, it's a hot topic right now. It's a real real issue. Don Wenner 4:30 That's not never never been a bigger issue than it is today. That's for sure. Marc Gutman 4:34 Well, I'm happy to hear that you're working on that problem. And looking forward to talking more about what that looks like. But before we get into that, you know, is real estate something that you've always been interested in when you were young and a young young kid? Where'd you grew up done? Don Wenner 4:51 Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, known for Lehigh University. Probably most of anything today. Marc Gutman 4:58 Yeah. So you know, when little was running around Bethlehem? Like, were you into real estate? Did you think that this was going to be something that you'd be into as a career, Don Wenner 5:08 and no, never never gave real estate a moment, I thought until I was probably up until about two weeks before I got into real estate. So it was never on my mind in any way, shape, shape or form. So I think I don't know, I don't know, I guess today, you know, more and more, we have a lot of kids coming out of college, you know, who are getting degrees in real estate, and it's, I guess, more in vogue today. But at the time, certainly real estate was not a something I thought over I knew any other kids thinking that real estate was going to be their, their career path. Marc Gutman 5:39 So what were your influences growing up? I mean, did you come from a family that was entrepreneurial, Don Wenner 5:46 I did not. So So my parents had me at 16 so like most 16 year olds, my parents had no money and so grew up in you know, lower middle classes, I guess the nice way to put it, you know, working family you know, bought our clothes either made them or bought them at a yard sale and and, you know, scraping to make ends meet each and every week and month and, and it was you know, great, humble, humble way to to grow up. I'm the oldest of four grown up five now as an adopted sister and, and my parents got divorced when I was four though, and so made made ends a little even tighter and grown up. And in the eighth grade, kind of a big influence for me was I was already entrepreneurial. You know, my dad told that my wedding story how he knew I was going to be an entrepreneur in kindergarten, when he started packing doughnuts into my lunch bag, and I started selling them to my classmates for 50 cents apiece, and, and when the school found out and call them cut my donut supply, that's, you know, kind of when he knew and I never heard that story, and I remembered it when he said I hadn't heard it until my wedding when he when he told it but but that was kind of my first entrepreneur experience and did that all through elementary selling, selling different things, running landscaping businesses and employing my friends and stuff like that. And in in the eighth grade, a financial advisor came into career day. And he showed this little chart that said, financial advisors made more money than doctors, lawyers, accountants, you know, all the jobs your parents tell you to become. And so I was entrepreneurial. And he explained to you know, financial advisors independent and kinda is in control of their own business, and you have to be good at math. And I was like, well, that's me. That's what I'm gonna do. And literally, I was, you know, very annoying eighth grader, shadowing financial advisors and spending my summer trying to learn the business. And I was set. That's what I was going to do. moved out of my parents house in high school at 17 years old and supported my way through the rest of high school and into college and had my mindset while I was at Drexel University studying finance, I was going to be a financial advisor and worked at BlackRock and McGladrey and Poland and some good sized companies, but knew I was going to be a financial advisor. And, and that was until I would wait tables on the weekends to help make, you know, make ends meet and pay for my room and board and whatnot. And a guy kept coming into the restaurant was working at and his name is Nathan Robinson. And Nathan convinced me one day to come meet with him because he wanted to, he kept wanting me to come work for him, and didn't really know what he did. He told me he was in the security business. So I finally sat down and met with them and turned out he was in the ADT, you know, alarm system security business. And he told me, I would make $2,000 a week, if I came to work for him. And I was 19 at that time, and, and $2,000 a week sounded, you know, pretty good. And it was a lot of money. You know, 19 years old now says, Yeah, yeah, 1617 years ago, and, and so, I, for some reason, believed him. And I started working for him the next day. And my first paycheck was $5,280. That was one of my worst paychecks I'd ever I ever earned from there forward. Later in life. Many years later, I found out no one had ever earned $1,000 a week for him less than $2,000 a week but because he gave me that belief, that's what I thought was supposed to earn and my whole job was, you know, knocking on doors. That's literally what I did all day was I knocked on doors, and you know, became the top sales rep in the country for ADT, and making a lot of money and saving a lot of money and, and Nathan also happened to be in real estate. He was a real estate agent at Keller Williams and he convinced me if I got my real estate license, I would do really well. Still in college, kind of didn't sleep for a couple weeks, took my classes online, took my exam and and that weekend, I flew out to a marketing conference the weekend I got my real estate license and I learned the concept of direct response marketing and having a unique selling proposition. My message from that first weekend before ever you know how to sign up at Keller Real Estate was your home sold, guaranteed or buy it? And it was October 2006, which was the peak of the real estate market. So it was a good time and seriousness, it was a good time to get into business. We didn't many didn't think it would be but it was that kind of was the start of my my real estate career. Marc Gutman 10:16 Yeah. And so, what do you think Nathan saw in you? That 19 is someone you know, working as a waiter in a restaurant, you know, and what do you think he saw on you were like, what, what did you exhibit at that time? Don Wenner 10:32 So I know one of the specific things that would grab his attention as you know, I worked at the time I was working at a Texas Roadhouse. So yes, I had the line down. So it was a it was a it was a interesting job. But uh, you know, every night they would do, and maybe we've ever worked at restaurants, you probably experienced this, you know, you had, they would have a contest of, you know, whoever sells the most filets tonight, or ribeyes, or whatever earns, you know, whatever it was 100 bucks, or, or, you know, some sort of incentive. So, when that when we started off that shift, whatever the item was, that was the hot item for the night, that's what everybody was eating. So, so Nathan, realize that, you know, he didn't really get to dictate what he was having. And he was, you know, you know, a lively charismatic guy, and, you know, have a lot of fun with it, that, you know, he was going to eat whatever, you know, he knew what the special was, and he knew that's what he was having. So, after the third or fourth time of me selling him on on some sort of special, you know, he saw saw some sort of, you know, energy and excitement that, you know, he wanted to explore and I don't think I was the first he recruited after restaurants out that I was so special, he, you know, he realized it was a great place to find people willing to work hard and used to be out in front of people and, and so gave me Give me a chance. Marc Gutman 11:50 Yeah, you know, I think there's a rite of passage work in a chain restaurant and knowing like either line dancing, I worked at ci G's. And so I just sing the birthday song, I just actually sang it last week for a friend because I'll never ever forget it. Maybe maybe at the end of this episode, I will delight listeners with that. Awesome. But yeah, and so that's all cool. And you're working hard. And you know, you're, you're catching Nathan's attention. But I'm really curious, like, where does this drive come from? Because I sense like, you know, yeah, there was some, some financial incentive there, you wanted to make money? But why? Don Wenner 12:28 That's an interesting question. So you know, not to detour a little bit, but you know, I just published a book called Building an elite organization. And, and, and I, I've said this a couple times, I joke, like, if I, if I could answer your question, you just asked me, I wouldn't have wrote the book building in the organization, I'd be writing books on parenting. Because if we could all, you know, figure out as the father of two young boys, you know, if I knew the exact formula to what, you know, what creates that drive, and I, you know, grit as we like to call it, you know, that, that's, that's what I'd be, I'd be an expert in today. And, and, you know, I do believe that grit is what separates the most successful people in the world from everybody else. And I believe that's a fact not a not a theory. But, you know, the question is, how do you instill, you know, grit? How do you instill that, that drive? And I think there's lots of things that you know, and I try to do as a parent, such as an example, is, you know, I don't I don't tell my children, you know, my children are eight, nine today, I don't I don't tell them, you know, you're so smart, or you're so handsome, or you're so athletic, I reward the behavior. And so I record you know, man, three touchdowns today. That's a man so impressed with three dozen and man, I'm really proud of how hard you worked this week in practice, and, and how you really, you know, improved on on this and they get, you know, high honor on all A's. I'm not saying man, you're so smart. I'm saying, I'm really proud of how hard you've been working on your homework and not after you've been putting forth and kind of rewarding the things you can control versus what you can't control the effort and the behavior. But, you know, for me, you know, I didn't grow up from entrepreneurs. You said, Actually, my my mom's been working for me now for 14 years, my father for 12 years, my stepmother for seven years, my stepfather for four years, much of my family works in the business, none of them came from an entrepreneurial background or none of them, frankly, have the sort of drive that I've always had. So but I think part of it is coming from humble background helps and that's definitely a concern. I know many who children are growing up in an environment of abundance trying to make sure you keep that that drive and that that focus so I don't have the exact answer. I feel though growing up with your limited limited means and dealing with some embarrassment as it is in you know, kind of middle school age of not having the cool clothes or shoes or, or whatnot. I think those things help shape and shape kind of the drive to take control of these things and more are certainly impactful for me. Marc Gutman 15:00 Yeah, and so you're working in the real estate business, you're getting your start offering to buy houses guaranteed if you can't sell it, how do you make the leap from that from getting into the business to starting a business like DLP? Don Wenner 15:17 You know, for us it everything you know, so it looks today, like, you know, I work with, you know, we help a lot of entrepreneurs who are looking to scale their businesses, and especially, especially, we help a lot in the, in the world of real estate. And, and a lot look at what we do. And we have, you know, we have a, we can show a pretty slide or pretty page of our family of businesses, and they look like they just worked so well together. And like, you know, I must have sat back 15 years ago and crafted this, this vision, and, and, you know, and poof, like, you know, we have this, this is perfectly set up organization. But, you know, the reality is that that's not how it how it happened. And really, you know, what we did is we looked for, you know, challenges that are the clients, the people we were coming in touch with, were struggling with, and trying to find solutions. And so it happened very, very naturally, you know, started with as you said, I was a real estate agent offering the guaranteed to sell your home. So I was going out to home sellers homes and offering to guarantee their sale, and that led to some people couldn't even wait to put their home on the market. And we would just start buying their home because they were in such need of selling, especially in the great, you know, recession time. And we had some people who were upside down on their home, and we started a short sale negotiation company and, and scaled that before there was such thing as short sales. And, and you know, and then you know, we started having people who didn't want to, you know, couldn't sell their home because they were upside down, didn't want to do a short sale and kind of destroy their credit, and but needed to move, they were relocating for a job or whatnot. So we started doing property management so that we could help them rent that home, because they needed to move out or move somewhere else. And so it all just came out of helping, you know, home sellers in the beginning stages. And then, you know, as we started growing and helping more and more people and started growing this home flipping business, we couldn't find enough good contractors, I found one really good contractor, but he couldn't keep up. So I hired him to come inside into my organization launch our own construction company, help us, you know, scale a construction company and, and you know, that, you know, really started growing and then you know, the bottom of the market, we said, hey, it's the bottom of the market and 2011 2012 it must be near it. And we said this is the time to build a portfolio. And so we started really building a portfolio of rental properties and providing housing to those who couldn't qualify to buy and in need of homes. And, you know, that started taking off. So we couldn't we didn't have enough capital. So I launched private investment funds and started taking in capital into our funds. And then we started having too much capital more than we could deploy. And we said, well, how do we help other people trying to run businesses somewhat, and we started then lending money to others who were running business similar to us other real estate investors. So it's happened in a very natural manner of progression off of helping home sellers and our beginning days and has taken shape where it is today, which today we're you know, closing in, bender this month, 450 employees, team members, you know, 1.6 billion and a u m, and and you know, doing hundreds of millions a year in revenue, but it's happened, you know, very naturally over these last 15 years. Marc Gutman 18:14 Yeah, and for those of you listening A u m is assets under management. So yeah, thank you get clarification on the jargon there. So, thanks for that, Don. Yeah, I mean, I think about that, and I have so many questions on that, on that last segment there. Because how do you do it? Like, how do you keep starting businesses, in ensuring that they fall underneath DLP in a way that is, is satisfactory to you? Right? I have to imagine that you have very high standards that you you're creating this, this business empire, if you will, and, but it's not just like, Hey, I'm just gonna, you know, you know, throw something on the wall and see if it sticks, it has to, you know, be up to your state, like, how do you do that? And you yourself not get caught up in the details and not get mired down in being a doer versus a leader? Don Wenner 19:08 Yeah, that's a great question. And I, I'll start first start with the last part of that notice, you know, I, I believe strongly my job today here at DLP, and over the past 15 years in each of our, you know, senior executives is still to be doers. So, you know, we expect our executives to be doers, managers and leaders at the same time, and that's not easy. But that's been, you know, really critical, you know, for our success and, and, and I'm still roll up my sleeves, you know, every every single day and, and it helps a ton staying, you know, keeping your feet in the dirt and understanding what's really going on. But, you know, I'd say a couple things to answer your your question, though, is you know, first is I was never afraid to hire. And I realized early on, you know, in sales, you know, I realized that, you know, my fundamental stage we're all salespeople in every every business then they your core. Your core function is is sales. And so my beginning days of being a real estate agent, I realized if I wasn't on the phone prospecting to potential clients, or I wasn't sitting in front of a potential client, my time wasn't being best used. And so I was in the business for maybe 60 days, when I took another agent in my office who wasn't doing very well and offered her a part time job. By the end of that first week, she was working more than full time. And two weeks later, she was so busy, I hired another assistant. And then about a month later, I hired the third two of those three young ladies are still working for me today. But I was willing to put people in place to free me up for to do what I knew was most impactful, where I can make the biggest difference. And, and in the beginning, that was, you know, that was really impactful. And I put built an organization around, you know, some people who are willing to follow me and work really hard and, and in free me up and follow me towards my, my vision, and, and I was, you know, constantly trying to learn and grow and realize, especially in the world of big businesses, such as real estate and financial services, and lending, there's lots and lots of people have done this, and I've done this successfully. And there's other people walk before me who who've done it. And so a constant wanting to learn from from others. And so still, to this day, you know, I'm an incredibly avid learner, I read, you know, three, four books every week. And, and so I was reading and learning and going to masterminds and learning for 20 great people and getting all these great ideas and concepts from the greats like Jim Collins, and john Maxwell, and so forth. And, and, but getting all that information and into in a manner that you can put it all into place, right, because you read one great book about leadership and tells you that's all you need to grow great business and other one is just management. Other one is content marketing. And another one, it's, you know, it's execution, another book, it's all about hiring, right. And but the reality is, you need to be good at all these things at the same time, as part of one system. And, and so we set out, you know, about 10 years ago now, and realizing we needed a system to, and a system that can get everybody in the organization around to be able to really have consistent results. And, and that's where what I wrote a book on called Building an organization is about, it's what we've built over the last decade called the elite execution system. And what I believe is every organization has four quadrants, their strategy, people, operations, and acceleration, acceleration is sales and marketing integrated. And you need to be able to grow all of that together a part of one plan in order to be able to grow consistently and profitably. And that's been really key to how we've grown, you know, by over 60%, every year now for 15 years, while growing our margins is putting that discipline in place. And when you get put that structure in place, and language and terminology that that every business in our DLP business operates under. And you realize most all businesses are more similar than dissimilar. And and as we've gone through a lot of businesses 12 that we run today, I've run over 20 businesses in total, over this past decade, they're all very, very similar, and they have the same challenges, and are very, very similar challenges. And in putting the right structure in place that allows you to be able to execute each day and put the right people in place has been really instrumental in the success we've been able to have and be able to grow multiple business at the same time, without yet coming up with a way to add more hours in the day. Marc Gutman 23:16 And I imagine that staying consistent, staying cohesive, staying connected across all those business units in different businesses is a bit of a challenge. And like So from my perspective, you know, I think, you know, what role does brand play and brand building play in the DLP story? Don Wenner 23:36 Yeah, it's, it's, it's tremendous. For us and so the way I think about it is, is and I think more and more people today are realizing the connection between brand and culture. And so you know, we have a full time executive here at DLP, Patrick, whose title is chief experience officer, and his he's the connection, you know, in in from an executive leadership standpoint, between your cx customer experience in E x and employee experience, and, and I think what's been really powerful for us and growing our brand is, is the level of, of, of transparency between our culture and our brand. And, and there's no difference, right, who we say we are, to potential employees or to our existing employees is exactly the same, as well as exactly the same as who we portray ourselves to be to all the different types of clients or stakeholders we serve. And, you know, are the book again, building the organization, we're teaching this system that we run to other other companies, and many, many cases, these companies were helping implement the lead execution system who were teaching Hey, this is how to grow a great organization. Well, they're coming to our meetings, they're seeing the internal operations we let them come and see a lot of things hands on right. So if we're going to saying hey, this is how you should run a an elite organization, but then they come into our organization realize Wait, they don't You're not actually doing what you said you're going to do, right? Or, you know, we run these big events that we bring are kind of our world revolves around kind of two groups, those who invest money with us into our funds, and then those who we invest money with, that we lend money to and invest equity with. And we'll run these big events where the same, these two groups of people come to the same events, right? And so if we're a different person to those investing with us, and we tell a different story to them, then we tell it to those we're lending to, right. If I tell my investors who are investing with us, hey, we pay you these really great returns and incredible returns, and that's because we overcharge our borrowers, right, and then we tell our borrowers that we're giving them really great rates over here, right? If our stories aren't matching between all the different stakeholders, from our team members to our residents who live in our properties to our investors, to our our borrowers, it becomes very, very hard. So So we really focus on that first and foremost in terms of growing our brand and then, you know, we're going through a process literally right now you referenced that I run a company called DLP capital. Actually today our company is called DLP real estate capital. And we're actually going through a rebrand process right now of knocking out the real estate and DLP capital, and realigning our businesses. Right now. We were on DLP real estate capital and we have DLP lending. We have DLP Realty, we have DLP, property management, we have DLP, construction, management, etc. We're actually going through a process right now of rebranding everybody under DLP capital. So now instead of the DLP, capital lending division, DLP capital, Property Management Division, DLP capital, so everybody's under one brand. If you work at DLP, you're not gonna say I work for DLP lender, you're gonna say I work for DLP, capital lending division, right? One LinkedIn page one, you know, main website. And that's a really big, you know, move that we're going through right now to better align the brand and be able to better align all the products and values we can bring to clients under under one umbrella. So that's, you know, in a very active process we're going through right now, which has been a lot of fun, a lot of a lot have been a lot of excitement. Marc Gutman 27:02 A common question I get all the time is Mark, can you help me with our brand? Yes, we help companies solve branding problems. And the first step would be to schedule a no obligation brand clarity call, we'll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email, we'll get you booked right away. So whether you're just getting started with the new business, or whether you've done some work and need a refresh, or whether you're a brand that's high performing and wants to stay there, we can help. After you book, your brand clarity call, you'll learn about our brand audit and strategy process will identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh, will determine if your business has a branding problem. And you'll see examples of our work and get relevant case studies. We'll also see if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level. So what are you waiting for, build the brand you've always dreamed of. Again, we'll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email. Now back to the show. I think what I'm hearing is something that I like to touch on and talk about is that branding is always an ongoing process, right? Even though right now you're going through some identity work to bring all the companies under one banner and one look and feel that's not going to end just with that process. And it's an it's an ongoing process. And I don't want to make a point of that. And I think you've articulated that. And so, as you're speaking I have to ask, you've got like 1.6 you said billion right and assets under management, yet now you're even starting to teach other businesses, how to run a company like yours, like, why? Don Wenner 28:56 Yeah, that's a great question. So the first, you know, root reason at the end of the day is is as first foremost, I believe it's it's my responsibility. So, you know, I believe, you know, I'm, I'm very, I've been very blessed with, you know, we're living in this time living in this country, with the skills and abilities that I've been blessed with from from the Lord and it's my job to do those for the best, you know, good of, of this this world and, and feel called to, to help other companies succeed, help individuals grow, it's not not easy and I've been, you know, figured out certain things through through a lot of hard work and teachings and, and other people willing to give me their time and and and, you know, share it share into into me and and so that's the first reason second is you know, we are very focused here at DLP on on impact. And we have four areas of impact where we're, we're focused on first and foremost is in most obvious is is housing. That's what our whole world revolves. Round is, is housing. So we focus on investing in workforce housing that is and will remain affordable for the local workforce. And that's really everything we do impacts that. The second big area of impact we're focused on is jobs. And right now, in America, mainly due to automation technology, 30 to 50% of jobs will be gone in the next 10 to 20 years. I don't think it's doom and gloom, that doesn't mean our country's ending society's going to hell, I think technology is going to create a big wave of job creation and new types of jobs. But those jobs are only going to be created by small businesses, or I should say, predominantly by small businesses, right, they're not going to be created by governments, they're going to be created by small businesses. And I know firsthand how difficult it is to grow a business despite being an amazing time that we're faced with the global competition, it's very challenging to grow to grow consistently and grow profitably. And so I believe that it's needed, you know, a system to scale entrepreneurial businesses is needed and can be the difference between an organization hitting a plateau of a really great CEO and some, you know, followers who get to a million or 3 million or 5 million or whatever revenue and just can't, can't grow beyond that can't create more jobs can't really make the level of impact that they like. And then we're also really focused on two other areas of impact which tie in the third is on legacy. And we want to help people live and leave a legacy and, and right now those who work really hard and have success, unfortunately, the majority of first generation wealth creators, wealth is lost by the second or third generation, and doesn't have to be that way. And not only is the wealth loss, but often they didn't really leave a legacy or get to live one and for a number of reasons, which we could get into if we wanted to. And and the fourth crisis we're really focused on which ties all these all these other crisis is really together is, is happiness. And, you know, right now, we've never been in a state of a higher percentage of people suffering from mental illness. The number one mental illness people suffer from is depression. And stats are kind of all over the place, but it's somewhere around 40% of Americans are struggling with depression is the most recent stats I've heard COVID has dramatically sparked that up and, and I believe that historically, you know, meaning the last many generations, people get their, their feeling their happiness, and their, you know, derive Your happiness is derived from the feeling of importance and significance. And people you know, Dale Carnegie and the great book, you know how to win friends and influence people. You know, it says that the number one human desire is that of the feeling of importance and significance. And historically, we've get that feeling from our work. And more and more today, people don't have that same connection with their job with their employer with their careers they once did. Couple that with social media and the feelings of inadequacy that that many face, I believe it's our job as leaders to help our team members connect their day to day work with with making impact bigger than themselves. And that by doing that, that that'll help them get the feeling of significance and importance they can carry into their their home life into the end of their faith life. And, and we focus on we have a whole chapter of the book is on living fully. And we focus heavily on helping our team members live fully across the eight F's of life, which are faith, family, friends, freedom, fun, fulfillment, fitness and finance. And, and I believe that's our job as business leaders, helping our team members get gaining importance and fulfillment in all areas of their life. And, and so I want to help not only grow great organizations, but also help those organizations organizations create happy, impactful people who can make an impact at work and outside of work. Marc Gutman 33:51 Yeah, can you give us an example of how you support which is a EFS? That I get the PDFs? Yeah, it is. Don Wenner 33:58 Yeah, absolutely. So so one of the the core fundamental tools, kind of where things start with our operating system called the lead execution system is developing what we call a compass, which is laying out a clear direction to where the company is going starting with purpose and mission and a clear B hag and understanding your core client and your brand promises and, and then getting into what your three year aim is for the organization and laying out a very clear one year bull's eye. And that's kind of the centering point of of our lead execution system. Well, we have a similar tool we call the personal compass. And so here at DLP, every one of our team members creates a personal compass where we help them evaluate their own personal mission statement, help them do we call a life assessment and go and assess their life across these eight areas of life, and evaluate where they're at today. And then we help them set a living fully dashboard, which is setting generally about 10 goals each year across these eight apps of what they want to accomplish in Next year to live fully, and just going through that process of really evaluating your life, looking at it holistically, setting clear goals, and then building a culture of helping them achieve those goals. And we don't just do it once a year as an exercise. We live it throughout the year we have a living fully day where we spent a whole day focused on everything but work and bring in all kinds of experts on personal finance, meditation, fitness, etc. We do Miracle Morning, every morning with actual workout group every morning on zoom people all over the country do we have a morning prayer group, we have a FitLife group, we have a single mom support group, we have a lot of things focused on whatever the needs of our team members are, we have this group called driven for greatness we have meaning for 12 years, we read a book together, we buy everybody audible accounts, we buy everybody fitbits we buy everybody Beachbody on demand accounts, a lot of personal tools. And we read a book together and different frontline team members lead us to the discussion of that book every other week and getting people who otherwise wouldn't be exposed to self improvement in these types of ideas in this in this environment, think about construction workers and maintenance technicians such who think would never have haven't listened to a business book in their whole life before coming to DLP. And now you know, leading a group on on a book on you know, a personal development book, I mean, it's just really, really cool process. So you know, then doing things helping people be able to you know, have appropriate time off helping show firsthand, you know, I coach my kids soccer, I don't know nothing about soccer still, even though I coach this past season, but I also coach their football and their and their basketball sports, I know a little bit more of how and, and, and, you know, so much so and I and I highlight that and show that organization that Yeah, I leave, you know, work at 530 and go coach my kids sports and, and, and having that in it work life integration, as we call it, where you're focusing on being fulfilled and succeeding in each of these areas at the same time, which is where real success, I feel comes from. And so our leaders, not just myself lead by example. And, and, and we want to really create a great environment. I had a team member a few years ago, probably about eight years ago now, who had a heart attack. And he had some other you know, he was a smoker and had some other, you know, issues. But you know, he'd been working really, really hard and a lot of us had known he had been really stressed out and been, you know, really pushed himself too hard. And luckily, he's he he ended up living, but we thought he was he might die and and it was it was on it was touching go for a while. And you know, that hit me. And I was like, man, I never want to be looking back saying, Man, somebody literally died here because they work so hard. They didn't take care of themselves. I don't want to find out that one of my team members, they got a divorce because they're not home, and they're not attentive to their wife. And, and because I'm working so hard, right? So so so those are some of the, you know, simple concepts and things that we've put into place to really help our people live fully. And there's the lessons, we teach and provide very specific tools to help put this in action into into other businesses. Marc Gutman 38:01 That's super inspirational. And thank you for sharing, it's no question or no wonder why DLP is seeing such success, you can really feel it in that explanation of going through the eight apps. And so when you think about your business, what's hard about it? What don't we know? What don't we see? What don't maybe even most of your team members see, like, what what's hard about it? Don Wenner 38:25 You know, I'd say the hardest part, you know, I think about every business, no matter what its size is really every problem starts in many ways or stops around leadership. So I believe every problem we have is a leadership problem at its at its core. So you know, from a simple standpoint, the hardest part when you're growing at you know, 60 plus percent a year is in leadership development. And our focus and we believe the key to having a truly enduring organization over many, many decades is our ability to develop leaders, you know, develop people from the frontline coming in, in the front end of our frontline of the organization, be able to develop them into senior executive roles. And but when you're growing in this kind of pace, we've also had to supplement with hiring great leaders from outside the organization and integrate them into the culture and, and it's hard. I mean, it's it's hard as much as we've heard over the last, you know, year about high unemployment, different cases. The reality is every company, especially every growing company is struggling to find enough good people, let alone strong, strong leaders. So that's the biggest day to day challenge. And that's been the number one place where I spend my time the number one place I spent my time in the past decade, pretty much the same thing every week, every month is on hiring. And then the second biggest place I spend spend my time for the past decade is on the development of our people, especially our leaders. So that's the biggest challenge. I'd say the hardest part though, of that is when you get when you have people who are really loved the organization who who work really hard, but just can't get to the next level to keep up with the pace of growth and when you have to Either, you know, some cases part ways or have to, you know, sort of higher above somebody's capability despite that person's well intentions and wanting to be able to own that, that job not being able to grow at a fast enough pace, kind of the saying that, you know, I've heard in the past is, you know, those who got you here can't get you to where you need to go and, and and certainly I look at first and foremost, when that happens as a as my fault and that it's a leadership shortfall that I didn't get my people to the point of being able to handle the growth fast enough. And so that's the hardest part we have such great people who are well intentioned and want to be successful want the company be successful, but just simply have a have a lid today anyway. And we've had to, you know, go and higher above and some of those cases have turned out to be incredible success stories where they've been repurposed or been okay, having some reporting somebody else and have thrived and grown and other cases where they're, you know, people's, even though we're, you know, one of our core values is humble confidence. And we have very limited egos here are some of the People's, you know, egos can't, a lot can't accept kind of when that happens. And we've we've lost some some good people. So that's, that's been, I'd say, the biggest actual challenge on a day to day basis. Marc Gutman 41:16 Yeah. And as you as I'm processing those thoughts around the challenges you have internally in running the business, what are some of the challenges that you're experiencing in this affordable workforce environment? Like, you know, I'm not that familiar with it. I'm guessing a lot of our listeners may not be like, what, what's that challenge? Don Wenner 41:35 No, say the first fundamental part of the challenge is, is make is aligning what's good for, you know, what's good for society, or the world or with what's good for, for us or for our investors and trying to align that always right, because a lot of real estate, good, great companies, good real estate operators, developers, are actually a part of the problem, not the solution. And what I mean by that is a lot of companies out there they go and buy, say, an apartment community, where the rents are $900 a month, which almost every place in America today needs more $900 month apartments. And so they buy that community where rents are $90 a month, and they come in, they have an investment plan, that makes sense, and they dump a ton of money into that property. And they drive the rents up to 14 $100 a month. So when they bought the property, it was affordable for the working families, you know, for the local, you know, teachers and nurses and so forth, their families could live there and afford for it to be there. And they come in there and they put so much money to the property makes great sense for the company and make great sense for their investors. But it doesn't make great sense in that you just displaced hundreds of families, who now already there wasn't enough affordable housing in that market. Now, there's even even less than estimated 500,000 units of that are affordable for local local workforce, in America today, per year are being removed from the affordability pool. And that's one of the reasons and and by affordability, what I mean is that, that the local working families are spending less than 30% of their income on rent. And about half of Americans today are spending more than that. And over a quarter of Americans, they're spending more than half of their income on rent, you just simply can't afford health care, food education, when that much of your income is going for the basic need of housing. So that's the you know, that's, that's, you know, challenge one is making sure we certainly have investors and we certainly want to do good for our investors, but while not being part of the problem, but instead being part of the solution here. So so that's that's difficult. And and and we've done it and that's that's our business thesis. And that means some deals that otherwise would work for us don't work, because we're not willing to, to make investments that aren't gonna make a positive impact and keep and preserve housing that's affordable for local workforce. So that that's one challenge. The other challenge is right now and was never been, it's never been harder than it is today is right now rent growth is just incredible. We're going through the greatest growth in rent in the affordable sector, meaning you own the, you know, in the space of markets of 789 100 1011 1200 a month housing across the United States, rents are going up right now faster than they've ever gone up. Since COVID. It's only skyrocketed the growth and rents to a pace that we've never seen. In the last decade, rents have gone up 70% in America 70% incomes have gone up four to 6% rent has gone up 70% that's not a sustainable formula. So again, it's a balance of certainly we want to for investors young to take part in some growth and rent and that helps our investors but we don't want to be in a situation where we're making our housing unaffordable for the local workforce. So you know it building cost and and and you know, the whole kind of Supply Chain right now pricing is going up. And it's making it harder and harder because incomes just simply aren't aren't keeping pace. So it's a, it's a heck of a challenge and doing so keeping your housing affordable, while not sacrificing, making sure you're truly creating a great lifestyle for your residents. And we want our communities to be safe. We want to invest heavily in enrichment of our residents, we do a lot around, Enriching them helping we call choose prosperity, giving them access to education and knowledge that they otherwise wouldn't be exposed to. Helping them with jobs and career advancement and health care and, and so forth. And it's it's a major, major challenge. And it continues to seem to get harder and harder. And this this demands, you know, whether it's short term or permanent, this inflationary environment we're in today is making it you know, even harder. Marc Gutman 45:52 Yeah, I mean, it seems like given the numbers that you stated, and the scenario that you outlined an almost impossible challenge. So I mean, thank you for taking that on. It's, it seems like, you know, deck is certainly stacked against so you know, finding success, there is a real accomplishment. And as you look to the future, Don, like, what does the future look like for DLP? Like what's what's what's next? Yeah, so, Don Wenner 46:18 you know, we've we have a family of businesses is talked about before today that are all growing really quickly, and all serving, you know, tremendous need and making an impact, which is exciting. And, you know, as we look ahead at our pace of growth, and of our growth and our assets, you know, we're growing at an incredible pace and is incredible, it is what we can do with the capital and employing more people and making a direct impact through our hands on investment into these affordable housing communities, workforce, housing communities I mentioned and so forth, what we've realized the biggest impact we were gonna be able to make is to take the certainly the capital, but also the knowledge and resources and systems that we've developed and making them available to more businesses and entrepreneurs and families. And that's where the book comes into play. And that's where we spend a lot of our time are spent a lot of my time is helping companies, a lot of our focus is certainly around other real estate companies who are also investing in this space of making impact on on workforce affordability. But helping more and more companies can make an impact on this jobs crisis and happiness crisis. And so our ability to kind of expand our platform and our and our footprint to, to make a much larger impact is that is the kind of the challenge we're, we're tackling right now. And and it's been been a lot of fun and exciting. And, you know, our B hag right now, you know, big hairy audacious goal is to be a fortune 500 company and at our current pace, we'll be there and really a blink of an eye and is a few years which is exciting and humbling at the same time. But realizing that if we keep doing you know, doing what we believe to be right and doing the right thing, and building building our brand and culture around the our values, and you know, we're really just just getting started and you know, there's great books out there on topics like small giants is a classic one that you know that hey, you can have a small business that's, that's great. And, and I challenge anybody looking to grow a business that if it's a great business, and you're really helping people, there's no way you can stay small. It can't be a great business and stay small and, and I've accepted a while ago for a short period of time in my life, I looked at Wow, when all of a sudden I realized I had a couple 100 employees, I thought well what if you started feeling like that was a liability and started feeling like wow, that's that's I didn't really set out to employ hundreds of people. And now I've quickly learned that you know, it's my greatest asset and, and the greatest opportunity I have is the ability to employ people and directly and indirectly through through our investments and and partnerships in education of other businesses is our greatest opportunity we face today and it's a lot of fun and exciting and haven't been more excited in a 15 point 15 year journey so far as I am today at the kind of the opportunities right right in front of us. It's it's we're having a blast. Marc Gutman 49:12 Fantastic any Oh, and we'll make sure to link to all things Don Wenner in the show notes will link to the books DLP, Evernote have access to all those resources so they can easily connect with you and and look you up that as we come to the end of our conversation here. I'd like you to think back to little Don solid doughnuts, making 50 cents 50 cents a donut and you know if he saw you today, what do you think he'd say? Don Wenner 49:40 Well, it's so interesting question. No one's asked me that one before but funny side story. Well, I think about that. So So I tell this the story of this donut story and kind of beginning of the book. And yes, just yesterday for the first time ever. I met with a gentleman who runs a actually a bank, a CEO of a bank, and he handed me a card have these little hostess doughnuts. No one had ever done that, that I sold back when I was a kindergartener. It was a it was a pretty pretty, pretty cool moment is that was definitely you could say a pivotal moment. You know, I hope that if I you know, look back I'd be I certainly think I was old as it's a it's amazing thing you know, I grew up with my parents have me at 16. So, you know, I was, you know, 20 years old and my parents were my age and so, so probably thinking I'm pretty, pretty old because that was my grandparents age at five years old. And I hope hope, hope I'd be proud and I guess the best way I think about that is you know, I have a nine year old and, and hope hope they're proud I funny story. I was talking to my I was in the car taking my kids to a flag football practice a lot about two weeks ago. And so I have my two sons back there and one of their other teammates, another kid back there and, and I asked the little boy, so what does your dad do? And he tells me in long detail, his dad worked for Johnson and Johnson and he's the software engineer and, and he builds these prosthetic arms and great detail right? And, and I asked my son I said, I said is Donnie and Donnie, what do I do? He says he does something with money in real estate. So didn't quite know even though he's been to my events and dinners, but as money in real estate, so I guess he was he was a partial, pretty pretty right there. But uh, but but hopefully they're proud of they tell me I'm really cool, because my book launch is going on right now. And they keep seeing my book ads pop up on their iPads. So right now I'm a celebrity and I'm really cool because I'm on YouTube. And I'm on NBA touquet. So I'm winning right now in my kids eyes I guess. Marc Gutman 51:49 In that is Don Wenner, founder and CEO of DLP real estate capital. quite inspiring, isn't it? Our conversation made me ask, am I living fully? am I playing all out? Or am I thinking too small? It's always amazing to see financially successful companies solving real social issues, such as affordable workforce housing. It furthers my belief that entrepreneurs are the answer to most of our problems. Congratulations to Don, who I think might be the first ever eighth grader who grew up dreaming of being a financial planner. A big thank you to Don Wenner and the team at DLP real estate capital. We will link to all things down winner including his two books in the show notes. Make sure to check them out. There's tons of valuable insights and information there. And if you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wild street comm our best guests like Don come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Wait, and I did promise to flex my own cheese restaurant experience. So here we go. Happy Happy Happy birthday. Happy Happy Happy birthday. Happy, Happy Happy birthday to you, to you to you. Oh les. That's how you do it. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. A lot of big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can't deny. ‍

BGBS 068: Coach Jimmy | Speaker/Story Coach | Are You Willing to Be Willing?Jimmy Hays Nelson, aka Coach Jimmy, has been a high-performance business coach for over a decade. Jimmy's unique skill is helping his clients to seamlessly connect their personal stories to their product or service, creating a strong “know, like, and trust factor.” Using his 20+ years of experience as a stage and film performer, he has shared his own personal story of being a former 100-pound overweight 3x college dropout to successful entrepreneur to create a 7-figure business and now dedicates his life to helping professionals craft their own stories to attract and impact the lives of their ideal audiences. He is a sought-after keynote speaker, emcee, and event host, now honing his expertise as a virtual emcee as well. He has dedicated his life to helping people live a life WellCrafted. As Coach Jimmy says, “Create a story, change the world.” In this episode, you'll learn…There is no treading water in life. We are always getting better or worse, so you might as well build your daily habits to get better. You will be rewarded in public for what you do in private. There is no overnight success. Everyone you look up to has worked very hard behind closed doors to get where they are. Until you learn to fall in love with the process over the performance, you're always going to be disappointed somewhere along the way. ResourcesWebsite: thecoachjimmy.com LinkedIn: Jimmy Nelson Instagram: @thecoachjimmy Facebook: @CoachJimmy Quotes[20:46] I don't know that we ever know when we're going to arrive, but I love chasing the next version of me. [25:41] I want to feed the doers, the people that are hungry to take action, and that that's what lights me up all day long because at the end of working with those people, I'm never exhausted. I think that's a big telltale for us to figure out where we're supposed to be is, what are those things that we do that fills our bucket and doesn't drain us? [28:39] You can't argue with my story—doesn't mean you're going to convert, doesn't mean you're going to be in my tribe, or agree with me. But you can't argue with my story. And it just feels like it diffuses any of that negative feedback immediately. [54:38] Personal storytelling is the fastest way to create know, like, and trust with an audience. And who do people do business with? People they know, like, and trust. Have a Brand Problem? We can help.Book your no-obligation, Wildstory Brand Clarity Call now. Learn about our Brand Audit and Strategy process Identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh Determine if your business has a branding problem See examples of our work and get relevant case studies See if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level Book Your Brand Clarity Call TODAY Podcast TranscriptCoach Jimmy 0:02 Honestly, I dropped out of school anything business wise or like what look like a real job or to make actual money outside of getting lucky and booking the movie or the Broadway show. I was like, there was nothing in my history that I was gonna be good at any of this because I quit stuff really easy, you know. And so I gotten there. And I was still struggling because I still saw that Jimmy when I looked in the mirror, there was still a lot of it like a mental things. And so I had a mentor early on that said, cool, Jimmy, what are you reading? What are you listening to? And I was like, What do you mean? He's like, in the morning? What do you do when you wake up? I'm like, I don't know. I throw on ESPN or the news on or he's like, I'm gonna challenge you to read 10 pages of a good book a day. I'm like, dude, reading me outside of a script. I'm like, it's just not my jam. He's like, I didn't ask him. What's your jam? It's like 10 pages. Marc Gutman 0:56 podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman. Are you constantly chasing the next version of yourself? Hi, I'm Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory, we are talking about drive ambition, turning our lives around Beachbody fitness, acting in New York City, and storytelling. And before we get into this episode, I want you to be the best version of you to live your best life. And that all starts by heading over to Apple podcasts or Spotify and giving us a five star review and rating. Look by this point in our lives. We all know that algorithms rule the world. And as such apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Go show that algo who's boss and rate this podcast only algorithm. Don't let it own you. Thank you for your reviews. I do appreciate it. Today's guest is Jimmy Nelson, better known as coach Jimmy. Jimmy is an international speaker, speaker, coach and storytelling expert. And I'm particularly excited about today's show, because I've worked alongside Jimmy previously judging speaking competitions, as well as recently I've been coached by Jimmy as I'm developing my public speaking game, and Jimmy's unique skill is helping his clients to seamlessly connect their personal stories to their product or service, creating a strong know, like and trust factor. Using his 20 plus years of experience as a stage and film performer. He has shared his own personal story of being a former 100 pound overweight, three time college dropout to successful entrepreneur. And now dedicates his life to helping professionals craft their own stories to attract and impact the lives of their ideal audiences. Much of which we'll hear in today's episode. He is a sought after keynote speaker emcee event host now honing his expertise is a virtual MC as well. Thank you. Coronavirus pandemic, he has dedicated his life to helping people live a life well crafted in his coach Jimmy says, create a story change the world. And this is his story. I am here with Jimmy Nelson also known and more fondly known to me as coach Jimmy I prefer that much more than than Jimmy Nelson and, and Jimmy is an international speaker and story coach. So if you listen to this show, you know there's two things that are near and dear to my heart. I'm currently working quite a bit on my speaking and I I love stories. So I know we are going to have an awesome conversation here today with Jimmy Jimmy, welcome to the show. Thanks, Mark. I've Coach Jimmy 4:29 been looking forward to this all day. Well, before even just today. This is a conversation with you as one I feel is way overdue. So this is gonna be fun. Marc Gutman 4:37 Yeah, I'm super excited. Jim and I were just talking what's really special about this conversation today is Jimmy and I have had the chance to work together several times in different capacities but most recently, like Jimmy coaching me on my my talk and and my story and so, you know, I'll just start off by saying it's it's not a question. It's more of a comment that maybe we can talk about this that even people They are seen as experts in one field still need to be coached by mutual experts in that field. So, you know, everyone knows that I love story and I'm really into it. But having someone like Jimmy and his perspective allows me to see things that I can't see and reveals blind spots and just another perspective. So it's gonna be really fun to to have a conversation. So as we get into it, Jimmy when you were growing up, first of all, where'd you grow up? Coach Jimmy 5:24 West Texas. Marc Gutman 5:25 West Texas. And when little Jimmy was running around West Texas, what was life like for you? Did you always want to be an international speaker? Coach Jimmy 5:35 This whole thing sets up so nice, because it was it was in first grade, this whole thing started. First grade West Texas and Lubbock, Texas, Murphy elementary school, the entire elementary school was we were doing like a Christmas play and every grade get a different number. And my first grade class, we got picked to do this musical number called too fat for the chimney. This was the early 80s and there was no childhood obesity epidemic. I was the fat kid my class. And I just thought the fat kid class I think at the time I think I was the only kid I knew who came from like a family that had split up so there just wasn't a really super confident kid. But I thought you know, this is a this is a story about Santa Claus. Here's my big break. But they actually cast my best friend Justin Martin, who was the skinniest kid in class to be Santa wrapped a bunch of pillows around me stuck him up stage with all my friends and like these Jane Fonda, 1980s headbands and leg warmers. And they did basically a step aerobics number upstage me, they put me in this ridiculous like, like long john feeding pajamas with the drop bottom and the stupid little stocking cap, pushed me out to the edge of the stage to sing the solos the two to fat to the chimney. And I was terrified. And I just wanted to be up there with my friends and some kind of like, Hey, we can do all this together. And something happened in that moment, man, I opened my mouth. And I started singing. And I got like a nod and a smile. And it was literally like the first time I get a positive response from a peer group. And when I look back on this entire storytelling thing, you know, obviously you don't know that in the moment in first grade. But I can look back at that moment and thought that's where it became really clear to me that I just wanted to be able to get an emotional response from an audience was way back in the day, West Texas with fat little Jimmy and pajamas singing to you know, the rest of the elementary school? Marc Gutman 7:30 Why was that so important to you having an emotional response? Like what do you think that does for you? And why like seeing that and chasing that? How did that fill you up? Coach Jimmy 7:41 It gave me some sense of significance. There was a there was a power piece there. I feel that way. Now, when I get on the stage, I look, you know, somebody hands me a mic. It's almost like my weapon, right? It's my, it's my weapon of choice. And when I can look out and an audience that I see a nod, or I can click in and I can see when somebody's really connected. Man, there's something that just there's this sense of pride that comes over. And I think for that little kid, there was a lot of things that didn't feel like I was making a difference. And even going forward thinking I wanted to be a performer and not being able to go to the colleges that I wanted to go to and always feeling like the deck was stacked against me. I had just growing up after that point. I had this real bad what I call kind of a victim mentality, which I got really good at explaining why other people were achieving things and how it was easier for them. And why this was harder for me. And, and it was always like, Well, I have to work twice as hard to get somewhere I have to. So I really created this really kind of BS story in my head about how things are harder for me. And it was like this badge of honor. And so I kept thinking, Well, I'm going to continue to fight because I know that I want that. I want to feel that significance that I felt on stage in the first grade, I want to make a difference. And it really wasn't until I found myself in my like early 20s. I was 100 pounds overweight. I dropped out of college three times, my mom had called me and said hey, we see all like the collection agencies sending stuff to the house and we think you should move home. And that was the most humiliating peace at 22 years old moving back home and wanting to like bow up and tell my mom No, this is my fight this you know, this is me against the world. And I was just I just surrendered man. I was just like, nope, Okay, I'm gonna move home. And that, you know, you ask why does it matter so much to me why, what that significance piece is and to go from that give up moment to where I'd be where I am now. And I know where that shift happened. Because I stopped performing. I stopped speaking I stopped chasing that seed that was in that first grade Jimmy and I was bartending I was we moved here to Dallas where I am now. And I remember I was just getting ready for another like lunch shift. It was like, you know, Groundhog's Day, and I stepped out of the shower, wrap the towel around me and stopped in front of the mirror. And I just thought I just didn't respect that guy. At mark. I literally thought it is cheesy as it sounds, I just thought, who's gonna love this? I'm like, who wants to follow this guy like, this is you Nelson at 22. And there was no like, well, you're a young kid like you're an adult. And it was like, that was the pivot moment for me and everything didn't change the next day. But that's where I was like, I took full responsibility to where I was and stop pointing fingers and go, look, I've gone from Dallas, to Oklahoma to Florida at the time, and the same problems kept following me. And it wasn't until I had that moment in the mirror is like, Look, where you are right now today is 1,000%, your responsibility and your fault. So you've got your 1,000% to change it. And that's, you know, 15 years later, I'm sitting here talking to you, it started taking those steps to change it. Marc Gutman 10:48 That's like what happened between first grade Jimmy who's upstaging Justin Martin, who I wonder where he is today. But, you know, first grade Jimmy and 22 year old Jimmy who's looking in the mirror and saying, I'm not where I want to be like, what kind of happened in between there because it sounds like you had some you had some successes, some wins some some ups, but also some downs. Like what was what was going on, like when, when you were going through like high school, were you thinking like, hey, like, I'm going to, I'm going to take the world by storm and be a performer. Coach Jimmy 11:21 There was the want to be a performer. But as far as take the world by storm, no. And it's crazy, because there are times this version of me forgets how I used to think. But literally in high school, I remember telling a it was either a teacher or a guidance counselor. They're asking about goals. And I said something along the the effects of, yeah, I don't set a whole lot of goals, because I just don't want to be disappointed or let myself down. And knowing the animals that I am now, I really thought that was like a responsible way to live. I'm like, well, that's safe, you're never going to be disappointed. Why put yourself out there? Why? Why set an actual metric, because all you're doing is setting yourself up for disappointment. And that's really how I went through high school. And when it became apparent that I wanted to perform, but my mom would say things like, hey, Jimmy, and I also knew I wanted to perform. And I was only specific, okay, I want to go learn from the best. I did have that in me, I wanted to be teachable, I wanted to learn from the best. And she's like, we don't even have the money for you to go audition for these schools, much less go. And again, that's where this like seat of resentment just came in, I felt like there was this VIP rope in life that I wasn't allowed across, like, hey, all these other people get to go on the other side of this thing they get to pursue they even get, and it was like I didn't even get to try like like the dream was shut down before I even got to go in and try to fail because I wasn't even given access to go audition or do any of those things. And and that's really where that guy was in 22. Because, you know, I went to a two year school here. And then I transferred to the University of Oklahoma and then ran out to Florida. And it was like, anytime things got hard I ran. So I was this kind of fight or flight I would like and I and I'd always have some great excuse why it wasn't my fault. I would move. But the same issues. Follow me wherever I went Marc Gutman 13:12 until that moment in the mirror. And then so you have this switch, you have this moment. What's sort of the flip look like what what's the other side look like? Like? What was the first step you took? After having that realization? Coach Jimmy 13:24 I keep this I keep this note here on my, on my computer that looks at me all the time. And it says are you willing to be willing? And it's just a reminder to me because that was the shift up to that point. I wasn't teachable. It wasn't that people hadn't tried to help me before. Whether it be you know, the fact that I was heavy was it would have been professionally. For some reason. I just was really quick on to explain explain what we're good at explaining why that wasn't gonna work for me. Yeah, that works for you. This isn't going to work for me. This is why things and I think that shift was willing to be willing to not immediately judge something before trying without, I wasn't ever willing to do the work before I wasn't willing to be coachable. I wasn't willing to look at things a different way. I wasn't willing to be open minded, I had already decided how things are what's already harder won't won't. What won't work for me. So it was a combination of that. And then looking around and thinking well, what what is already in my world that I can start with, you know, so if I'm looking at, you know, physically it's like, cool, you can go walk around the block, you can go start jogging, Oh, you've been given certain books about mindset, or ultimately things about storytelling or things in acting things that you're not even taken advantage of the resources that you have with you for free right now. And it was just these tiny little baby steps. I never during this entire journey. There was never this huge overhaul and I think that's what I attribute my long term success to it was take a baby step change something small Watch, give it some time before you try to take on the next thing, see the results, see the benefits of that master that, then take home the next piece, then take on the next day, if I if I had tried to jump from a 22 year old Jimmy in the mirror, to the way I think or the way I operate my life now in this huge gap, it wouldn't have stuck. And I see that in mistaken people all the time, whether it's with a nutrition diet situation where it's like, Hey, I'm going to completely revamp everything, or whether it's in their mindset or in their business. They think they have to it's zero or 100. And man, I'm saying I'm here because I went zero to point 5.5 to one and so I really, I don't know that I was a plan to think long term, but I know it's benefited me. Marc Gutman 15:46 Yeah, totally. And it's interesting, like, I still resonate with that, like I, the phrase, I always uses the game of inches, you know, I just I always feel like even when we're doing speaking or whatever it is, in my mind, I think I'm gonna have this quantum jump. But it's actually like these little little iterative steps to get to where we are. But it's interesting because my perception of you. Now certainly, I didn't know you at 22. But the way you describe that 22 year old Jimmy is like night and day to the Jimmy I know today because I would classify you like if I had cut away like say three words. I mean, one of the things that I would say about you're like you're dedicated, you're committed, you are right. You are a hard worker, right. Like you're you're a grinder and do you think that that commitment that that kind of relentless commitment to work? And when I say work, I mean, you know, self development. If you you can't really see Jimmy on the video right now, but Jimmy is extremely fit. Physical Fitness is a passion of his it's not natural, he works his tail off at it. And, and, and then same with with work, but I mean, what I'm sensing This is a direct reflection of, you know, of that inspired by that 22 year old Jimmy I mean, do you think that you scared I mean, is one of the reasons you continue to grind because you're scared of regressing back to 22 year old Jimmy in the mirror. Coach Jimmy 17:07 It's not scared of aggression. It's I don't know my potential. And it what scares me is not knowing that guy. Right. And so if let's take weight loss as an example, you know, I had a decade career in in health and fitness with Beachbody, right lost 100 pounds. And then I worked with so many people, and most of the people I worked with were trying to recapture some former version of themselves, right? I think it only looked the way I did in high school. Oh, man, it was kicking in college. And they were chasing some former version themselves. Dude, I and the other part that was hard for them is they never had to deal. They never had to live with the consequences of their choices when they were young, because their metabolism was higher. They could eat whatever they want you right? I lived with the consequences of all my crappy decisions throughout my childhood, whether that be my mindset, physically, all those things. I lived with that guy until 2223 years old. So when I started making these changes, and I saw the benefits of doing something differently, I became obsessed with what else is possible? Where can I go from here? What's the next thing and so it isn't so much scared of becoming the guy that I was. It's a fear of never becoming the guy that I could be. Because right now at 43 years old, I've never felt better. I'm in the best shape of my life. I'm in you know, I'm career wise, I'm having a blast. I'm stepping into new and exciting places. I'm on stages, that these virtual cool stages that I've never been on before. It's like the next thing and I don't want to stop this ride. And so I show up every morning excited because I feel like I'm being everybody is rewarded in public for what they do in private. And so this grinder mentality that you know of me now, this guy that gets up early, and I'm very regimented now, like my routine is a huge deal to me, I tell people all the time, I feel I live the life of freedom that I do. Because somewhere along the way, I chose to become a slave to a few daily things that just are non negotiables for me now. And so no longer is it about getting ready. It's staying ready. So when that opportunity knocks you jump and you go for it and so no, it's I'm not scared of going back to the dude I was it's what if I never What's next? And you know, it's been so cool this journey so far. And it's a lot of hard work and there's been ups and downs and all the things but it's chasing that next version of me. Marc Gutman 19:35 How will you know when you've sort of reached your potential? Coach Jimmy 19:39 You don't you know, and I think somewhere like if I can go back to my acting thing I had a I had an acting mentor. That really ingrained to me Jimmy until you learn to fall in love with the process over the performance. You're always going to be kind of disappointed and somewhere along the way. I the same way did an acting classes. Or, you know, working on a play or it wasn't about opening night, it was all the little trying to figure out who this character is, who this person is, and showing up daily and trying things and, you know, the the wins and the losses and trying so Well, that didn't work. And so it became this analogy for my entire life of, instead of looking for a time where I can put it in cruise control, you know, I thought that was my business forever, oh, when I get when I start making this much money, right? Help this many people, I can throw it in cruise control and just coast. And then I would reach whatever metric that was, and it would never feel like what I thought it was gonna feel like I was proud of myself. I took time to celebrate. And then there was just the next horizon the next challenge. And so that's a great question. I don't know that we ever know when we're going to arrive. But I love chasing the next version of me. And so it isn't this burden to me, it isn't this. Oh, well, you know, gotta keep grinding because I find I find ways to celebrate along the way. I see this all the time. People don't take the time to celebrate these little victories. If people watch me on my especially on my social media, my Instagram, you'll see a lot of my workouts right on my Instagram stories. And after a lift, I tend to I'll get up and I tend to pack my leg. And I was gonna what's what's the length pack? And I've heard a story, a pastor tell the story one time about how he was playing tennis. And his his his tennis instructor said, Man, you're really hard on yourself every time you do something wrong, but you have like a great forehand, and they never see you celebrate the things you do well, he's like, well, there's always something else to work on. He said it true. He said, but if you never celebrate the things that you do well, and he's like, Yeah, but I don't, you know, I don't wanna make a big deal about it. I don't want to be, you know, Tiger Woods fist pump. He's like, we got to find a way for you to at least acknowledge these little things you're doing. And so what they found for him, was this little tap on the leg. And I really took that to heart and started finding ways in my life, whether that's physically whether that's business wise, working with the next client, whatever that thing is to go do to me, you showed up today. Good job, winter, lots of cute man you gave it, you shut up and took a swing today, you know, and so Pat, and give yourself a little bit of recognition, because I think that's where people burn out. Because they never do take the time to take, you know, celebrate these little victories. Marc Gutman 22:23 I love that. So it's such an awesome little nugget there, this idea of giving yourself a device or a way of having muscle memory for celebration like that, that stuff. So that's so cool. I love it. So like, let's just kind of go back. So you had this awakening you had this moment, you're a bartender. For some reason. I'm imagining like your tending bar at Chili's, or something like that was probably cooler, but are Coach Jimmy 22:48 pretty similar. Marc Gutman 22:48 Yeah, we're in your flare or whatever. But um, so so you have this flip and you start looking forward. What do you want to do? Like what's what's, what's the dream? What's the plan? Coach Jimmy 22:59 Man? That's what a great question. I think it's continued to it's continued to morph. Right. So you know, I'm so thankful when that shift happened when I was bartending. I was waiting tables bartending with this guy, that I had gone to school with his cousin in Lubbock. And this dude, I started watching him lose weight, right. And this is where, especially with a lot of the A lot of my female clients, I say, Man, when it comes to marketing and branding and stuff, I was like, You ladies, y'all have it down so much better than we do. Because y'all are great at sharing and asking each other questions, right? Like, Oh, what's that makeup? How's this work? You know, so I'm watching my buddy lose weight. And we as guys don't just roll up and go like, yo, Mark, you're looking pretty good in those jeans, buddy. What are you doing? Like, we watch somebody else have what we want. And this stupid male ego won't allow us to ask. And so finally I asked him, you know, and and he's telling me he's doing these in home workouts. And I'm like, Oh, no, no, no, I go back to this is where I'm still reverting back to old gym, and like, oh, that doesn't work. And it's so crazy. Because as I've been in business for 15 years, it's amazing to me that we see somebody that has a lifestyle we want doing something well on a business has a podcast, it's kicking ass. And so we go, we've never asked a we already have a story in our head about how, why it's easier for them, or why I could never do what they do, or Oh, they started with 100,000 followers or 1 million downloads, like it's always been this way for them, which it hasn't. But let's say we finally swallow our ego, and ask, and then they tell us something. And they're like, oh, that won't work. And it's fascinating to me how we as people want to eliminate ourselves from what worked for somebody else. And I and I think for me, what I want to do now is I just want to find the people that are hungry, like I became hungry. And the people I love working with is not the person that hears me and says Jimmy, you're a great speaker or Yeah, I've heard that before. That's a great tip or wants to turn around and tell somebody else why, oh, I heard Jimmy say this, you should do that. I, what lights me up is the person that goes, dude, I heard what you said, I went and put it into action the past seven days. And let me tell you how things have been better. Let me tell you how I took these baby steps that you taught me and went forward, whether it's helping somebody like yourself craft a story. And then you come back and you're like, Hey, I tried that on the podcast, I did that on an ID live. The last time I was on stage, I led with this story. And let me tell you how it changed. I think that that's now what I crave the most is just going and I want to feed the doers, the people that are hungry to take action, and that that's what lights me up all day long. Because Because at the end of working with those people, I'm never exhausted, you know. And I think that that's a big telltale for us to figure out where we're supposed to be is what's those things that that we do that fills our bucket and doesn't drain us? Marc Gutman 26:00 Yeah. And it's nothing better when someone comes up in and tells you how they what you said or what you talked about impacted their life. And then there's that that's, there's just it's just so energetic. And like you said, it's a it's a faucet versus a drain. But how do you handle those people that either give you harsh criticism, or are like look like your talk stuck? Like it didn't work? Or like I don't know if anyone's ever been that harsh, but like, I mean, even I get feedback, where they're probably saying, hey, this could use improvement, and I heard your talk sock, but you know, the, you know, I'm much less better, much less better at receiving, you know, that criticism than I am the Praise, praise is easy. Like, that's what I'm looking for. But how do you? How do you handle that when someone might not be receptive to your message or your talk? Or even if you bombed, right? I mean, we just don't come out and crush it. Coach Jimmy 26:52 I think the first thing you have to do is you have to look at the source. Where's this criticism coming from? Right? It's do or is it somebody that I needed there? You know, it's different. If I'm going to a coach or a mentor, somebody I respect and say, yo, be honest with me, because my best mentors in my world, they've all had this double edged sword. They weren't the person that told me I was the best, but I knew they were tough on me, because of what they saw in me. Had they not seen any potential had they not seen, like the strands of potential greatness, they wouldn't have been hard on me. And so those people that gave me that feedback, I was thankful for that that kind of had that. Two ways of like, hey, you're doing good man. I'm definitely one that I respond to positive reinforcement. I'm not one of those guys that are motivated by somebody telling me I can't do something like, hey, it comes more like this. I know you can do this, and that efforts not getting you there, I will go run through a brick wall for those mentors, right? Like, Yo, I see what your pot to fit your potential is. And what you're doing right now is not going to get you there. And it's not that you can't do it. But as far as like just public, that doesn't resonate. I don't hear a lot of it. You know, and and the people that just want to disagree with me. This is what I love about storytelling. I think stories are the greatest way to handle any objection, right? Somebody's like, yeah, Jimmy, but you know, usually it's like, let's say I'm trying to get them into, you know, an offer some kind of business or service or whatever. And there's like, Yeah, I don't have time for that, or I don't have money for this. So those things don't work. My favorite like, Yeah, I don't know about that. All I know is and I tell a story. And you, you you and I we can debate about facts and figures all day long. You can't argue with my story, doesn't mean you're going to convert doesn't mean you're going to be in my tribe or agree with me. But you can't argue with my story. And it just feels like it diffuses any of that negative feedback immediately. It's just like, Yeah, I don't know about that. Let me tell you about Billy. And usually I will find a story, whether it's my own, or somebody I've worked with, that has the exact same pushback that person just gave me. And I'm like, yeah, I'm sorry, you feel that way. I'm going to tell you why Billy had the exact same situation you did, and came out a winner on the other side. You know, Hey, I know you don't have any time. Let me tell you about Billy, who you know, has three jobs and four kids and to her, you know, special needs. And he just he built this business. Are you busier than Billy? Yeah, I don't know, man, you know, and I just, I just get, I just get kind of just, it's becoming like this collector of stories. And that's usually where I combat those and just tell another story and keep moving forward. Yeah, man. Marc Gutman 29:37 I love that. That's such a powerful, powerful way to use stories and I want to get to that in a second. But like, how did you even get into speaking so I'm still like, you know, you've had this you know, we're where we're at now is you're at the restaurant. you're checking out some guy's pants. Yeah. And then he'd said he looks good. And I'm and you're like, hey, how did you you know, lose some weight? Like how'd you How'd you end up in the speaking? Coach Jimmy 30:01 Yeah, that's a great question. So, back to my buddy, you know, Jeremy, at the at the bar, he tells me Hey, I'm doing these DVDs this at home fitness stuff. And I you know, I tell him No, but I keep watching me, right? I tell them no, this is why it doesn't work. And then I keep watching and I keep watching and finally Mike cool, dude. Let me start. And so that's where I was introduced to Beachbody. That was where my health and fitness part started. And so I started just it was literally, you know, it was just two workouts you just alternated every other day. And it was a baby step, right? It wasn't anything crazy. It was like, okay, there's a lot my world right now I can't control. I can push play on this DVD at the time. Every day. This is these 30 minutes I can control. There's a lot of other things in my world. And so for me, it became some certainty. So baby steps and baby steps. And this is where I go to lose 100 pounds. And as I transformed outside, inside, I started getting a little bit of that mojo back of that dream that that first grade, Jimmy had to be on stage as reignited. And I started putting myself out there more in auditioning and doing theater here in Dallas, to the point where I actually started working quite a bit and somebody said, Well, why don't why aren't you in New York City pursuing this? And I was like, I can't do that. And it was like, I needed somebody else to give me permission to go dream big. I was like, Oh, this is cute. I'm just gonna do a little, you know, community theater here in Dallas. And somebody's like, you're good. Like, why don't you go, dude, once you go try it in the end. So that was, and it just it stopped me cold because I didn't have a good excuse. And so I made the jump. And while I was in New York City, pursuing this acting career, and I started, and it was funny because I kept dropping out of school. So what I said when I went to New York City is, Hey, I'm gonna finish my, that city is going to be my bachelor's and master's degree, I'm going to go take acting and scene study classes with people that are literally working, you know, I go to class every Tuesday afternoon. And people in that class are working on soaps or in Broadway shows. And I was super intimidated. But it was so cool about going to the shows and seeing people that were actually working and just going that they're they're just better than me, was watching them struggle with the same stuff I did, watching them get up and completely suck at something one day, and I was like, Oh, and I don't know if this sounds terrible to say that. That was more. That gave me more confidence, watching people that had made it suck at something, then anything I was doing any better. Because we get it in our head that the people that we're looking at that we emulate, or we want to be like them, we think they have it all figured out. We think that they don't struggle in anything. They think that everything they touch is gold, and watching these people who were working actors, still struggle with the scene or get really harsh feedback, the same feedback I was getting from the guy running the class. And again, you went back. Okay, so let's go. But you were saying how do you know when you've made it? This is where I think I really did learn to fall in love with the process. It was like, Oh, those people didn't make it there. they've they've, they're a step ahead of me. But they're still trying to get better. They're still trying to find the potential part of themselves. And that comes with being coachable. It's It comes with being able to get this feedback. And so in New York, I started to do this. And that's where the health and fitness business said, Hey, Jimmy, I think you could do this as well. And so I would go to these events of different people that were losing weight. And usually I would get asked, like, who wants to who wants to share a testimony, he wants to tell a story. And because of my background in theater, I was using one of the only people that wasn't terrified to talk in front of somebody. And so it was like me in front of five people that I'm like, Yeah, sure. So you know, my name is Jimmy and I used to weigh 100 pounds, or we used to be 100 pounds heavier. And so it was these little baby steps. And what I realized as my acting career that had some success, ultimately wasn't going where I thought it was. And I'm spending days like passing out chocolates and doing these bullshit things, you know, to try to make ends meet in Times Square. And I'm looking at these billboards of like a Broadway show or the next movie. And I'm like, this is Don't they know, this is how the story is supposed to end a little first grade, Jimmy comes to the big city, and then he's on a billboard. And there was like this, this quiet whisper in my gut that said, Jimmy, stop waiting for other people to put you on their stages and go make your own Dude, don't quit, quit, quit asking the gatekeeper to let you in this other world. And I realized that I got just as much fulfillment. Speaking on a stage seeing people's eyes light up or changing their belief system or taking action for the first time in their life. That lit me up just as much, if not more than any musical or TV show or indie film or anything else I done. Because there I felt like I was I wasn't just entertaining someone. I had the power to change somebody's life on a stage. And that's where I was like, cool. It was really easy to put the acting stuff behind me and go down this path where you know me Now, Marc Gutman 35:05 a common question I get all the time is Mark, can you help me with our brand? Yes, we help companies solve branding problems. And the first step would be to schedule a no obligation brand clarity call, we'll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wildstorm comm and send us an email, we'll get you booked right away. So whether you're just getting started with a new business, or whether you've done some work and need a refresh, or whether you're a brand that's high performing and wants to stay there, we can help. After you book, your brand clarity call, you'll learn about our brand audit and strategy process will identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh, will determine if your business has a branding problem. And you'll see examples of our work and get relevant case studies. We'll also see if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level. So what are you waiting for, build the brand you've always dreamed of. Again, we'll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wildstorm comm and send us an email. Now back to the show. So that's so interesting to me. So you're in New York, and you had a clear vision at that point that you wanted to be on stages and a different kind of speaker rather than an actor had you seen? Like, what was your model for that? Like I you know, I think like, for me, you know, for so long my my model of a speaker was like the bad motivational speaker from high school, you know, like, I didn't have that much experience. And I actually don't think it was until, you know, I became an entrepreneur and I started going to conferences and things like that, that I saw this kind of whole different world like, Hey, you can speak and people can share things. And wow, like in an hour you, you might learn something that might transform your business or your life. So what was your like? How did you even know that existed? Like, what was your model for that? Coach Jimmy 37:06 You know, I didn't initially I really, I'm thankful I accidentally stumbled into my early career with Beachbody, right. Like I accidentally stumbled into network marketing. I don't even know what it was. But what network marketing did for me is it introduced me to personal development. So I didn't know that like motivational speaking or any of the people that we think of that are the big wigs in that world. I didn't know that existed. But I had a lot physically outside, I lost 100 pounds, but I had a lot to work on in my mindset. And so as I started trying to pursue this career, and the only reason I stumbled into it is because I had had success with the products. I had a friend that said, Hey, I think you'd be good at this. I never saw myself as a salesman. I had no like actual career experience. Obviously, I dropped out of school, anything business wise, or like what look like a real job or to make actual money outside of getting lucky and booking the movie or the Broadway show. Like there was nothing in my history that I was gonna be good at any of this because I quit stuff really easy, you know. And so I got in there. And I was still struggling because I still saw that Jimmy when I looked in the mirror, there was still a lot of it like a mental things. And so I had a mentor early on that said, cool, Jimmy, what are you reading? What are you listening to? And I was like, What do you mean, he's like, in the morning? What do you do when you wake up? I'm like, I don't know, I throw on ESPN or the news on or he's like, I'm gonna challenge you to read 10 pages of a good book a day. I'm like, dude, reading me outside of a script. I'm like, it's just not my jam. He's like, I didn't ask if it's your jam. It's like 10 pages. He's like looking at the way you did your weight loss. He's like, Can you give me 10 pages a day. And so the very first personal development book I ever read was The slight edge by Jeff Olson, I think is his name. I have it here behind me. And so I was like, Okay, I can do that. 10 pages a day. And so that's where I was introduced to this world of these authors, and then eventually speakers that were having this impact that I knew I had in me somewhere, you know, on a higher level than cool, you do a musical and somebody super entertained for two hours. And they're applauding at the end, you're like, gosh, you helped me escape my world for two hours. It was this flip of instead of helping you escape your life for two hours, what if I can help change your life over the next 30 minutes, or the next keynote or the next 90 minute speech? And instead of just having you go, Man, that was awesome. Now I'm going back to this life that I've just satisfied with? What if I actually give you steps and things you can take outside of this theater outside of this room that can go with you. And that's again, it was step by step that way I realized, Oh, this is a thing. And people need this and I and I'm watching how people are reacting to me. And it really wasn't until I have other people. Again, pointing out. You have a gift in this. You can do this and it's no different than what I say. Before you can do this, if you're willing to do the work, right, you have potential in you. But you're not going to get there if you if you're just happy with where you are now. And I responded to that, and it was like that was that was the next step. And it was just saying yes to all these little stages, I don't think I ever thought, okay, I someday I'm going to be on a virtual, I'm going to be on a stage in front of 5000 people or 40,000 people or any of the stages that I've had an opportunity to be on, it was just saying yes to the next one. How can I be the best I can be for these people that are in front of me at the at the time, and then continue to work on getting better until the next opportunity shows up? And you know, I know that's just it's not sexy. But that's that's literally it was the step by step process. And then, you know, when somebody like Pete Vargas with adventure, reach last December, calls me and he's like, hey, in four days, can you be in Vegas, we're doing a virtual event, in this 360 degrees stage with 50 foot high walls with a giant zoom interactive stage for 40,000 people in 100 countries. I need you there in four days, can you be there, there was no time to get ready. It's just Yes. And I can do that. Because like I said, I show up every day you stay ready, at some point, like I like having this edge about me. Because I don't know when the next opportunity is gonna and what happens? Do what happens if that the thing that's going to maybe be the thing that your signature moment your entire life comes and we weren't ready for it? Because you're not always gonna get two weeks to prep for things like this? And you're asking, do you have this fear of regressing? No, I am scared to death, that my moment that's going to impact the world, my moment, it's going to like, introduce me to somebody that might change something that may flip the big Domino, whatever, whatever legacy I get to leave on this world, that that opportunity comes and I wasn't ready. And that's what keeps me going every day. Marc Gutman 41:57 You know, I so relate to your experience of how you, you know, term it, needing someone to give you permission to do different things. So when I look back throughout New York, a lot of the inflection points in my life, and I went back to my alma mater at University of Michigan and spoke about this, it was just like, those little moments where someone gave me permission. And it was like, the slightest permission, it wasn't like, I give you permission, right? It was like, Hey, you can do this, right? See this in you. And, you know, I don't see that as a bad thing. I do see it like it myself. I'm like, oh, why did I need that permission. But what I want people to take away from that is like, be the person that spots potential in others. And know that by speaking up and giving that permission to others and telling someone that you see something in them or you believe in them, like, how much of an impact that can have because I just again, I know in my life, like a professor was like, Hey, I think you should go out to the movie business. That's like, that's all he said. It wasn't like he, you know, open up doors for me or anything. And that's I took But before that, I was like, No, I can't do that. That's a crazy talk. I'm just some kid from from Michigan. So thank you for sharing all that. Jimmy is you think about all the work you've done and being prepped, you know, and you know, for your moment and not letting that slip by? Like, what's hard about speaking like, What don't we see? And you talk a lot about what goes on behind the scenes? Like what don't we know, that it takes to be a good speaker? Coach Jimmy 43:24 Yeah. I think for me, the toughest part about being a good speaker, is that staying prepared and ready. But if I think about if I if I use a Broadway actor, as as an example, if I go see a play, that this person is doing eight times a week, It better not feel like they've done it eight times a week, I kind of need to live some of this with them for the first time. And I think for me speaking is living in that spine line between preparation, but not becoming so stale. And I think we've all seen that speaker, where you're like, Man, this is now just coming across as a bad monologue. They said so many times, they're no longer emotionally connected to it. And it's tough. And it's that's what's being a professional is. There are people that have been on Broadway stages and have been in shows for over a decade, think about that, over a decade, doing the same show for eight times a week, and having to relive it and the audience has to come across as they're going through this for the very first time. I saw john Maxwell. Last year, I was at an event in Vegas, I saw that he was going to speak and I hadn't seen him in like five years on stage. I'm like, ah, love to hear what John's doing these days and I sit down. And it was still it was the same speech I had heard five years ago, and I was just as riveted. Like I went through the whole thing with him even it was like it was like watching a great movie all over again. And I think what people don't realize is the amount of to really be great at this. The amount of practice and preparation that The non sexy standing up in my office trying something new with maybe the same story. You know, sometimes it's the same story is like, Can this be better? Can I tweak this? You know, early on, I wrote this down when you were giving me my intro and talk about how we work together. Even storytelling in different mediums like I've been working on a written version of my story. And it's been a completely different challenge, because I literally, I took the transcription of one of my YouTube videos of my keynote, and I thought I just put it down here. And then as you start reading, you realize how much of what I do on stage does not translate to the page. And so it's so but in having to rewrite and make this story just as riveting for a reader, it's informed me different things that could be doing on stage for a story I've told a million times. And so I think what people don't see is, you don't see the preparation, the people that just think, oh, what you're a good speaker, you just get up there and wing it. To an extent Yes, there are parts of me because I had done the basics so much. If I got thrown into something and had to rip off the cuff, I'm able to do that. But if I just stopped preparing from now for the rest of my career, I'm gonna start getting worse, there is no treading water in life, we are getting better or worse at something, we are moving closer to a goal or further away, we are becoming fitter and healthier, or more lethargic and sicker, we are getting smarter or dumber, like there is no treading water. And I guess that's just what I want to get across to people is that if these little tiny unsexy, well, nobody's around, they're easy to do, but they're easy not to do Jim Rohn talks about that all the time, the keys to success, these simple little daily disciplines that are easy to do. The problem is, they're also easy not to do and most people aren't willing to show up every day without somebody making them continue to try to get better every day. Marc Gutman 46:56 Absolutely. And so, you've alluded to this several times. But I think, you know, what's unique about a lot of the work you do is, you are so focused on story and storytelling in speaking and as I've been kind of taking notes, here, I've got all these like different Venn diagrams, and your whole life has been, um, that that might be an extreme to say your whole life, but what I can gather is you're really talented at sort of mashing up disciplines. And for example, you were able to mash up health and fitness into your into acting, and that became something a bit different, right? You're able to mash up your ability to perform, and, and speak and tell story. And it's and for me, it's like all these like different Venn diagrams of kinda like, where you've been able to find this unique ability. And so when you talk about storytelling, and I'm sure that wasn't something that always that you always saw as a tool, you might have been, you know, like, for me, I was naturally good at it until like, I learned about it. And then I was like, oh, and it's almost like, once you've learned about, it's harder to, to use it because it becomes a thing you want to, you know, be good at and be structured and understand how it works. But can you talk a little bit about, you know, your realization of when storytelling became important to you, and then also like, how you work it into your speaking and working with the people that you coach? Coach Jimmy 48:23 Yeah, there's, there's two points there that you just crossed. So the fact that these mashups I love the way you put that, if there's a quote that says how you do anything, is how you do everything. And somewhere along the way that I started connecting these pieces, and I and for me, it all started with taking control of my health and fitness. And once I that, and this, I don't know, just the background as an actor, anybody think about that, like a dancer, a painter, any artists, it's this meticulous thing to show up every day and work on their art. One of my favorite books is the War of Art by Steven pressfield. And he talks about that, that willingness to show up every day. And I think that, that acting was the acting part. And the fitness part prepped me for this life. You know, this four years in New York City, I'd go to three or four auditions a day knowing I'm going to hear no way more than I hear Yes. No clue that that was preparing me for my life as Marc Gutman 49:15 an entrepreneur Coach Jimmy 49:16 that I was going to the know wasn't going to scare me anymore. Because I'm like, Well, whatever. That's just always I know, I'm going to hear no wave as an actor, you know, you're going to hear no way more than Yes. And most people I was gifted with that blessing not knowing it at the time, that I had friends that were in other jobs and like how do you do that every day? I could go and they say thank you never hear from again, like, I don't know, do you go when you give it your best swing? And you come out, you know, the next day like you just keep showing up as far as I didn't know story was so important to me. When I started my business initially in with health and fitness. It was 2007 2008. So we're talking early social media and I tried to do all the traditional network marketing things of, Hey, I got a space and we're going to have a meeting and like nobody was showing up in New York. So I was working on a TV show. And anybody that's ever worked in TV or if you don't know, so want to hurry up and wait. And I was working on Ugly Betty on ABC, I had a buddy of mine. That was one of the leads in it that I got to college with. They've moved the show from LA to New York. And he's like, hey, do you want a gig, they need them. The show was set in a fashion magazine. They want the same employees everyday there. I was like, yeah, that's how I got my sag card. It was it was a steady paycheck as an actor. And so what I started doing is, with all this downtime, I take my laptop out, and I was like, Alright, well, maybe there's a way to find people that might want to, like help have my health help with health and fitness on Facebook, right. And so this was right when Facebook had kind of opened up to everybody, I missed it when it was just in college. I you know, I was older than that. So I started playing around on there, and I started having a lot of success. And then eventually my dad, who's been in real estate for 30 plus years, start seeing what I'm doing. And he's like, Hey, can you come teach my real estate agents who's a broker? And he's like, can you come teach my agents to do what you do? And I was like, they want to lose some weight. He's like, No, he's like, you do such a great job of just leading with you. You don't lead with your program, or your supplements, or Beachbody or he's like, people just fall in love with you. And then they don't even know what they what you do, but they just know they want to be around you. And that's where we're sometimes we're so close to what we do naturally what we've been working on, or we see something that we've worked on in another compartment of our lives that shows up in this other area. And that was the first moment I took a step back and looked at what I was doing. I was like, Oh, I'm just doing what I always knew as an actor, that now had come naturally to me because as a professional actor for over a decade by that point. I was like, oh, okay, yeah. And so I started looking and seeing how most real estate agents do their business. And I'm like, Yeah, I don't know any of these people. I know who their broker is, I know they have for sale signs. But I don't know you. And so I started going in and working with those agents to help them find like a personal story of something they overcame, even if it had nothing to do with real estate, because I was like, Look, I've watched my parents for 30 years. And I know it's not if there's a hiccup in your whole real estate transaction. It's when what if we told the story about how you mister real estate agent overcame something as in your adolescence or is your childhood or in your adult life, that lets me know, when things go sideways in this deal, you're the person that I want in my foxhole, because you've already set the expectation, hey, I'm not going to be the agent that promises nothing's gonna go wrong. I'm gonna be the agent. That's gonna promise you when it does, you're gonna want me on your side, we're going to get through this. And that was the first step outside of just doing it for myself that I realized, oh, there were other people that I can help do this as well. Marc Gutman 52:59 So many questions, but I want to ask you about something you just said right there. Because I think it's an insight that people listening, we really need to take a moment kind of step back and rewind there. Because I think a lot of people struggle with this idea of personal storytelling. And I wish we had about five hours to get into this. But, you know, they think like, I don't have a story, that's interesting. You know, they also might say something, and you just brought this up as an example, like, I don't have an exact story that is in my business that illustrates what I wanted to do. And you kind of just talked about that, and gave a great example. And I'd love for you to share a little bit that that technique that you just used, where you can tell a story that has a similar emotion or a similar arc, but isn't really related directly to what you're talking about. Do you know what I'm talking about? And Coach Jimmy 53:56 it's like when I get done with my keynote speech, or when I'm working with one of my workshops that I share the story of first grade, Jim, and I'm like, okay, when does first grade me in pajamas singing us Christmas song have to do with what I do working with entrepreneurs, nothing and everything. Because you know why this is important to me, right? And so we worked on this before, I think if you can tell me a story about why you're a normal person, just like I am, you've struggled with something. It doesn't even have to be what's in your, what's your occupation is, but then you tell me a way that you overcame that you tell me something about yourself, like you're letting me know, you and we that's why I feel like personal storytelling is the fastest way to create know, like and trust with an audience. And who do people do business with people they know like and trust. And if you share me, show me a little bit of your personal side. maybe be a little vulnerable with me. Show me some of your wounds. Either Show me how you overcame something or just something Where you messed up once you're like, man, I never want to be that guy again. Or I never, you know, I went through this and I messed this up, I never want you to have to deal with the pain that I dealt with. So let me work with you. There's so many stories there. And it doesn't have to be. And there's times, I'm so thankful for my story, there's times I wish 100 pound weight loss wasn't a part of my story. Because that's where people go, Oh, I need a seven figure story. I need 100 pound weight loss, I need to I climb Mount Everest. And I'm like, No, really, man, if you'll just tell me the one little time that you know, somebody disappointed you or you disappointed somebody, or something went sideways. And then you came through that. Those are the things that are going to resonate. Because really, and you said it to when we're telling our story. We're really not even thinking about what we went through. They're thinking about an emotion that they dealt with as well. If I talk about me, in New York City, passing out chocolates in Times Square, looking at these billboards thinking that's where I was supposed to be you in the audience are just thinking about a time in your life where you felt behind like you were supposed to be further along than where you were. And that's man, when somebody finds themselves in your story, emotionally, that game over by game over because you're like, Okay, this person understands how I feel, even if our details are different. Marc Gutman 56:22 Well, Jimmy, as we come to an end here, I've got two more questions. And the first is because less of a question and more of an opportunity. Where can I listeners learn more about you, I understand you might have a free gift for them that you can talk about. But where can people learn more about coach Jimmy more about storytelling, and everything that you do and bring to this world? Coach Jimmy 56:44 Yeah, I'm glad this is what we ended with this. Because the number one question I get all the time is Jimmy, I don't even know if I have a story. And so what I put together is a checklist, you got a story well crafted, calm and get my checklist, what it is, it's literally my personal checklist of what makes a good story. What it does, is it just helps you maybe think of some stories that you haven't thought of before. And what that means is you can start figuring out where that personal story ties into what you do with your product and service. So just get a story well crafted calm, and you can get that for free. Marc Gutman 57:14 Thank you, Jimmy. And as we come to a close here, I want you to think back to that little first grade Jimmy and that kind of funny outfit at the front of the stage. And if we saw you today, ran into you today, what do you think he'd say? Coach Jimmy 57:29 He'd be really proud, he'd be really proud. And because he would see that he had an impact that he mattered that he was seen, and that he'd be super proud. Marc Gutman 57:45 And that is coach Jimmy Nelson. So many gold nuggets in that conversation. There is no treading water in life. Loved Jimmy's insight that you can't argue with my story. No one can argue with your story is a story about talking about tapping on his leg to celebrate to give self praise. I think that's something I'm going to take away from this personally, again, to start doing as I'm tapping my leg right now, because I'm very excited about how I'm delivering this End of Episode outro. And I think the number one insight that really is blowing my mind is that you will be rewarded in public for what you do. In private Look, there is no overnight success. Everyone that you see being successful, has been working very, very hard behind closed doors to get there. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. It was such a treat to talk with Jimmy and hear how he grinds every day to work towards his best self as well to find out who he can really become. I know I'm looking forward to seeing Where's Jimmy is going and I asked you what version of yourself is in your potential. big big thank you to coach Jimmy. We will link to all things coach Jimmy in the show notes. link to his extremely valuable story checklist and his Instagram. And if you don't follow Jimmy on Instagram start today. I thoroughly enjoy the lean coach Jimmy lifting massive amounts of weight like some Norwegian strong man, it really is cool. Follow me on Insta you won't be disappointed. If you know of a guest who should appear on our show. please drop me a line at podcast at wild story.com. Our best guests like Jimmy come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that's the show. Until next time Make sure to visit our website www.wildstorm.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS, so you'll never mis

BGBS 067: Margaret Hartwell | Archetypes In Branding | What's the Deeper Meaning? Margaret Hartwell is an innovation and strategy leader on a mission to empower purpose-driven change at the intersection of design, brand & culture, and technology. Her diverse accomplishments range from co-founding and establishing the innovation practice for Cognition Studio, a subsidiary of Certus Solutions, to authoring Archetypes in Branding: A Toolkit for Creatives and Strategists. She uses a transformative approach to everyday innovation and employs skills and best practices from a range of disciplines: archetypal branding, transpersonal psychology, sustainable management, and design thinking.  Her experience spans 20+ years developing design-led businesses in the US, UK, Europe, and APAC. Industries include technology, social and environmental advocacy, health and wellness, media, entertainment and the arts, leadership development, automotive, telecommunications, packaged goods, and travel. She holds her MBA in Sustainable Management from Presidio Graduate School, her BA from UC Berkeley, and an advanced coaching certification from the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology. She thinks in systems, strategies, and surprises. She creates in metaphor, music, and story and relates with empathy and curiosity. Recognized for a breadth and depth of applied skills and experience across multiple creative disciplines and business sectors, Margaret began her career as a designer as one of the founding members of Suissa Miller Advertising where she served in various roles from studio director to art director to vice president. In London, she was Director of Development for the London Design Festival and Head of Marketing for the Design Council. Returning to the U.S., consulting and coaching includes work with Saatchi & Saatchi S, PayPal, Jive, BVG, Inc., Flextronics, BFG Communications, Omegawave, Stanford Lively Arts, Verve Coffee Roasters, TwoFish Bakery, and the San Francisco Symphony. She taught "Live Exchange" in the pioneering MBA in Design Strategy (DMBA) program at the California College of the Arts, and is an engaging speaker/presenter/facilitator. Margaret has been called an information junkie with a childlike curiosity and is known for having an insatiable appetite for travel, trends, and technologies. She has been an actor, singer, improv player, photographer, scriptwriter, environmental advocate, and founder of a line of infant sportswear called zerosomething. She currently lives in Salem, Massachusetts. In this episode, you'll learn... An archetypal approach opens a door to a deeper level of connection to yourself, society, and any relationship. This helps particularly in the branding space because it is no longer about pushing your ideals, it's about relatedness. Once you recognize that failure is to be embraced, that is where your brilliance will shine through. These lessons become the tools you use throughout life. Archetypal strategy brings about a unique curiosity about life and people. It can apply to benefits beyond branding by helping people understand themselves and how they want to move in the world. Resources Websites www.margarethartwell.com www.archetypesinbranding.com www.liveworkcoaching.org www.thedowagercountess.com Clubhouse: @mphpov Twitter: @MPHpov Facebook: @ArchetypesinBrandingToolkit LinkedIn: Margaret Hartwell Instagram: @margarethartwell Quotes [33:20] The process of this kind of introspection and alignment of everything changes the way that people hold on to right and wrong. They're not as much about finding a solution, as opposed to finding a process that continues to reveal value…This is actually something that is going to grow along and with and inside and outside of us. [40:58] Branding is really about increasing the value of a relationship, much in the way that you would increase the value of a relationship with your family or a friend or your community. [56:33] It's hard to have the courage because we've been taught that we can't fail. And that's not real. Good relationships don't have conflict. No way. As human beings, you know, the more we can just say, 'Yes, awesome. That just came up; let's go there'…I think that's really where everybody's unique brilliance is, is recognizing that all those things are baseline, all those things are to be embraced. And if you just left them out of the right 'wrong box', then they're all actually just gifts and tools to be applied to however you want to live and be and do. Have a Brand Problem? We can help. Book your no-obligation, Wildstory Brand Clarity Call now.  Learn about our Brand Audit and Strategy process Identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh Determine if your business has a branding problem See examples of our work and get relevant case studies See if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level Book Your Brand Clarity Call TODAY Podcast Transcript Margaret Hartwell 0:02 I used the vulnerability and shame work in my startup in New Zealand a lot to build the innovation process that change people to that change their reactions, because using innovation tools requires you to let go of that kind of judgment. And then we're never going to get to the kind of creativity or the kind of satisfaction from the daily work if they were constantly protecting something, you know, shaming someone else judging someone else. So I've seen an architectural approach have all kinds of secondary and tertiary benefits to people's relationships to people's understanding of themselves and how they want to move in the world. So it definitely can apply and way more levels than just in your brand. And for me, it's moved a lot into the culture space. Marc Gutman 1:05 podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman is your brand the provoca tour. Maybe it's the activist. Perhaps it's the muse, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory, we are talking about meaning deeper meaning and connection. And one of my favorite topics, archetypes in branding. And before we get into this amazing episode, and I do promise that once you hear who the guest is, you'll agree that it is amazing. I'm asking you to take on the archetype of the advocate, or the companion or the cheerleader, and rate and review this podcast on Apple podcasts or Spotify. Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. And we want them to identify this show with the archetype of the podcaster. Don't we? Thank you for your reviews. I do appreciate it. Today's guest is Margaret Hartwell. Margaret Hartwell is such a great name. Sounds very harrowing, yet playful as well. And I didn't even realize that until I just said it. But that's how I kind of see today's guest. Margaret is one of my true real life heroes, because she's the author of a book and toolkit that has transformed who I see the world and how I interact with clients, her book, archetypes and branding. The toolkit for creatives and strategists is a must read, whether you're in branding, or not. archetypes, and archetypal analysis, are all about stripping away the noise in getting down to the essence, the core, and that's also the aim of today's interview. In addition to being an author, Margaret Hartwell is an innovation and strategy leader on a mission to empower purpose driven change at the intersection of design, brand, and culture and technology. By developing people centered solutions, she serves as a guide, mentor, an alchemist. Those are all archetypes by the way. To help senior executives in teams solve complex issues. She uses a transformative approach to everyday innovation employs skills and best practices from a range of disciplines, archetypal branding, transpersonal, psychology, sustainable management, and design thinking. All topics we touch on in today's episode. Her experience spans 20 plus years developing design led businesses in the US, UK, Europe and APAC industries include technology social and environmental advocacy, health and wellness, media, entertainment and the arts, leadership development, automotive, telecommunications, packaged goods and travel, and she draws upon and expands on toolkits from the design council UK, the grove society for organizational learning, IDEO Stanford D school in Jean Lukas work at the Darden School of Business, to name just a few sources of inspiration. Recognize recognized for a breadth and depth of applied skills and experience across multiple creative disciplines and business sectors. Margaret began her career as a designer is one of the founding members of swiza Miller advertising, where she served in various roles from Studio director, the art director to Vice President. In London. She was the Director of Development for the London design festival and head of marketing for the design Council. When she returned to the US she consulted and coached with Saatchi and Saatchi Pay Pal jive Flextronics BFG communications, Stanford Lively Arts, to fish bakery in the San Francisco Symphony. She has teaching experience as she taught live exchange in the pioneering MBA and design strategy program at the California College of the Arts, and is an engaging speaker, presenter and facilitator. Margaret has been called an information junkie with a childlike curiosity is known for having an insatiable appetite for travel trends and technologies. She has been an actor, singer, improv player, photographer, script writer, environmental advocate and founder of a line of infant sport were called zero something and she currently lives in Salem, Massachusetts. And this is her story. I am here with Margaret Hartwell, innovation consultant, innovation coach, and yeah, that's all great. We're gonna talk about that. But I know Margaret, from a book that she wrote called archetypes in branding, and I have it right here. And it is literally like it's well law that got like, the corners are like kind of, you know, dinged up a little bit. And things are like noted and ripped in here. And I like more than any other book. You can see here, Margaret, like, you know, and people that are on the listen to the podcast, I'm here at the halfway house studio, I am surrounded by books. And I believe that books have energy and power. And I just love books. And so I get a lot of books. And this book is probably the one that I reach for more often than any other book because it's, we're going to talk about this book, but it's because it has knowledge that you receive when you read it. But it's like a working book, it's a book that like, has like a purpose that I work with in my job, like, on a daily basis. Now I want to talk to you about that. So I'm extremely, extremely excited to have you on the podcast. So welcome. And as we get into this, like to me, archetypes are definitely about the universal, the the essence, but they're also like sort of mystical and magical. They're like a portal or a window to me, you know, in a lens. And so with that kind of definition at least and I'm sure you have your own. When you were like a young girl, were you into these types of like portals in Windows and translation like what was what was young Margaret like? Margaret Hartwell 7:58 Gosh, well, thanks, Mark, I really pleased and chuffed that I get to chat with you on your great podcast. And that's a great opening question. Because one of the things as I was reviewing the kinds of influences and and trajectories and defining moments and stuff is I had imaginary friends that I was asked by the kin urban, my mother was asked by the kindergarten teacher to have me leave them at home because it was taking too long for me to answer questions and to do things because I was doing everything in collaboration. So yeah, I think that was huge, because my sisters are eight years older than I am. And they're identical twins. And so I had to go to the magical mystery portal world to find my twin was like, hey, they thought each other. So I made up my own and I made three, so I outnumbered them. So, but um, you know, I think combining that with super bad eyesight. Also, this is where I went into books. So for me, I love what you just said about books too. I do think they're alive. And they they are portals as well. So you combine those things together. And yeah, it was it was pretty evident early on that I had a very favorite place in my imagination. Marc Gutman 9:22 And were you a creative as a child, or did you think that you'd have a creative career did you want to do something else? Margaret Hartwell 9:28 All I wanted to do was sing? Well, I should say all I wanted to do was anything creative. You know, let's paint let's work with clay. Let's sing Let's dance, let's act let's make diagramas just anything kind of maker ish was really, I loved it. And but music was my wheel. You know, that was really where it all came together in terms of what it felt like as your body as an instrument and playing the piano. No, and story. So you know, every song that we sing has huge story too. And I think that that became like a third way of going into the mystical in a way because music so amazing in terms of its portal. Marc Gutman 10:16 Yeah, absolutely. And so you're into music and you're creative. I mean, Was this something that was supported in your household as a child did? Or did your parents want you to do something else? Yes, it Margaret Hartwell 10:30 was supported in so much is that it was the child like thing to do, and that when you grew up, you should be a doctor. So that was, that was kind of what I was told is that, ultimately, that the arts weren't a career, they were just a hobby. And I tried to debunk that. But I did go to Berkeley and Gosh, studied medicine or pre med at the time. And it was, I don't know, it's kind of funny, I look back on it now. And I kind of see the paradigm. And the paradigm was is that it was kind of like cheating to go and do something that you were already really good at. They should do things that you're not so good at. And then you are a whole and complete person. So hard work meant everything in my family. I'm a third culture kid, Canadian mother and a Chinese father. That doesn't, you don't really see it so much. But I'm actually more Chinese than my sisters from what the ancestry 23andme says. But yeah, so you know, it's a great, my parents were awesome, don't get me wrong. I mean, they really supported everything that I loved and wanted to do. And they, they were just like any parent, they wanted to make sure that I was going to be self sufficient, and be able to make a living, and they didn't see how it all works gonna come together if I was just doing the arts. So they were very happy when I got my MBA. Instead of, you know, I'm not going to med school. I'm leaving for London, and I'm doing a Shakespeare program. And my father's like, Why? I said, Well, because every doctor, you know, needs to know how to speak. And I am big pentameter, right? And it just looked to me like you've lost your mind. And my mother says, Let her go. She'll get it out of her system. Yeah, no, never got it out of my system. Marc Gutman 12:28 But I just love imagining you and your sisters having arguments about who's more Chinese, I can see it now. It's the holidays. And so take me back there to Berkeley, you're in pre med, I imagine that you've at least convinced yourself you want to be pre med, you know, like we all do, we tell ourselves that, okay, this is my path. And then something's kind of welling up in you something is saying maybe this isn't my path. What was that decision like to, to go to London, Margaret Hartwell 12:56 but like barely passing all my science classes. Fear has a way of doing that to you. But yeah, I think I got three days the whole time I was there. And it was in kinesiology, exercise, physiology and psychology and photography. So, um, what was welling up, I was singing all during college, I sang in the perfect fifth and then in the golden overtones. And that was really what I loved to do. And so I was seeing that I was kind of dying inside. And I was getting unhappy. And I was kind of isolating myself at that point. And I thought What's going on? It was, you know, I always look back and go, whatever, the first kind of crises or existential moments of awakening, and I think, before going choosing to go to London, that was mine, where I just feel like why am I doing any of this? What what's the point? I mean, it was, wasn't that I was super bad at and I was really good at, you know, intuiting people's needs and really listening to people and all that, but, but to spend the time. So yeah, that was the moment of thinking, well, I, let's see what this is going to be like. And quite frankly, that's really what kind of changed everything for me. Because I just came alive in London, and not just from the tack on the you know, the tactics and the skills building that that the Shakespeare program gave me, but really from the interest in people, and in kind of the myth and metaphor just popped. And I think if I look back, I think that was probably where the notion for an archetypical approach, kind of which I would never have been able to put the words to, but that's where it kind of took hold is I was constantly looking around corners sideways and looking for meaning what's the what's the deal. Meaning here, how does it translate into other arenas or cultures or to different people? So and, you know, Shakespeare is an amazing primmer for that kind of symbology and metaphor. So, yeah, that's where it kind of took hold. Marc Gutman 15:20 So the question I always disliked when I was going through school, because I never really knew what I wanted to do was people always ask me, they always say, what are you going to do with that? Yeah, what are you going to do with that? And so I as much as I disliked that question, I mean, were people asking you that about the Shakespeare program? What are you going to do with that? So you're going to wonder why don't you have Shakespeare but what after Margaret? What are you going to do? Margaret Hartwell 15:43 Oh, totally. Well, yes. So I was told to come home to finish my degree at Berkeley. And because three years at Berkeley didn't mean anything. So my parents said, Wait, if you want to go back, you can go back because I what I really wanted to do was go to the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art, because musical theater then had become my thing. So what did I really want? You know, what were you going to do with that? Well, I was just going to keep studying. I love learning. I love being in school, I love, you know, playing essential. And that's what this program was, but came back and finished my degree. And my parents said, Well, what are you going to do with that? I was like, Well, I'm going to move to LA. And I'm going to try my hand at acting, and her shaking their heads completely. But at that point, being an actor, without a lot of credits, you either become an aerobics instructor or a waiter. And so I started teaching aerobics. And then I found my way into a theatre company. And at that point, I met somebody who was working on a commercial shoot. And she introduced me to my then former future boss in advertising. Unknown Speaker 16:55 So Margaret Hartwell 16:56 it was a complete like pinball of, I had no idea what I was gonna do with that. And I said, I have no idea. But you know what? I'm, again, I think I've always had a certain level of faith that whatever happened, you know, I came from a great background, and my family always had my back. And I could pretty much do whatever I wanted, anything was possible. So I went with it. And my parents were thrilled that I got into advertising. You know, finally, something that sounded like a job. So, Marc Gutman 17:31 absolutely. What was that first advertising job? Like when you were in LA? And who were you working for? And what was your responsibilities? Margaret Hartwell 17:39 So I joined suissa suissa group when we had 13 people. And I left after we had gotten the accurate account, as we said, Miller, and we've been sold to IPG, so the trajectory of this tiny little agency, I mean, when we got accurate, the headline said, you know, there's a snowball's chance in hell, that this agency is going to get this, but I was the designer on that pitch. So that's kind of where I, I was able, then at that point, to kind of parse out all my responsibilities, because in a smaller agency, I was running the studio, I was doing my own, you know, art direction for clients. I was also doing all the it, which is the joke of that of everything. But nobody else had the confidence to do it. So I was like, Okay, I'll learn this. And do that. So, yeah. So I was able, what was it like it was, it was like a total roller coaster, and really fun. I mean, la advertising in your, in your 20s and early 30s is super fun. People are unencumbered. And yeah, then it was a good support. It was it was a nice family. And I was able to have my daughter during that time. So as a single mom, that was a huge support network. So I learned a ton. And I think that's really where I learned about brand strategy. And marketing is from the creative side of advertising. Marc Gutman 19:13 Yeah, at what moment in that advertising journey? Did you think to yourself, oh, wait, like, I might be an advertising. I might make a career out of this. This might be like what the future holds for me? Yeah, Margaret Hartwell 19:25 I what moment was that? I think it was truly winning the accurate account. Because up until that point, I had just been kind of like a Swiss Army knife in terms of being our art director, designer, creative director all around whatever you need. And at that point, I thought, Hmm, maybe I really do have a knack for this for understanding people's needs and wants and finding a way to connect with them. So that there was some exchange that was mutually beneficial and so that there were a couple of great strategists at the agency to, and then ultimately, they were a huge influence. And so that when I left my agency, actually, I gotta be honest, I got laid off because it was at a really difficult time for the agency. And, and so I got laid off. And I thought, huh, what do we do when we're at our lowest moments, all change moments, we go back to London. So that's what I did. Marc Gutman 20:31 When was your first interaction with archetypes like, when did you those even become on your radar and something that you're like, Ah, this is interesting. I Margaret Hartwell 20:41 was actually in my coaching program that I took at the Institute of transpersonal psychology in Palo Alto. And we, it was goddesses and every woman, the Jean Shinoda bowling book, she also wrote gods in every man, and reading that brought all of you know, Edith Hamilton's mythology back because I studied that in high school, but never really never took hold. And Joseph Campbell, and I've been on the path with James Hellman, and, you know, and other kinds of, you know, I guess the suit, you know, the source code was a huge impact for me. But that's when I first found it. And then I found Carolyn meses work. Have you been across her? Marc Gutman 21:25 I don't know her. So the Margaret Hartwell 21:26 book, so she isn't a medical intuitive. And she wrote a book called sacred contracts, that has outlined very descriptions of a lot of archetypes. And she uses archetypes as a way of doing just like we would in branding as a shorthand for understanding people's drives and journeys and motivations. And that's a nice, so I found that book. And I thought, this is pretty cool. I don't know what. And I looked more into it. And she actually had a deck of cards. So I could backup that at the time, I was doing brand strategy work as a consultant, just kind of for hire. And so when I found these cards that Carolyn mace had done, I went to the guy that I was working with, who's actually my co author, Josh chin. And I said, you know, can I trial working with the right kind of client with these cards and lists? Let's see if the brand strategy process goes differently, or let's just experiment with it. And the feedback that we got was the cards were way too, whoo. And it just, it made them feel like, you know, somebody was trying to read their Tarot or something. And that it, that it wasn't validated. And it wasn't real at that point. So, so yeah, so Josh, and I, you can clap, well, maybe this is an opportunity. And he had had an agreement with his publisher for previous books that they had the agency had published. And they had been kind of after him saying, well, what's next? So Josh came to me and said, you want to write a book about archetypes and branding? I went, sure. Okay. Because it was working, you know, the, the process, the dialogue, the kind of different conversations that we were having, were actually unlocking areas that were resistances in a business, that by using this archetypical kind of world, somehow it gave them a 30,000 foot view, and they soften some of the ego identity attachments that people had about what their brand was supposed to be or how they were going to do things. So yeah, that's a long winded answer to your How did you first find archetypes? Marc Gutman 23:49 No, it's amazing. I want to know and it's funny that you say woo so you know as I mentioned, I love them and I'm a little like, you know, little dislike neurotic and like the little perforations on the cards bother him. So I bought some of your cards like the Korean version like back when you could get them real easily. And then I had someone at Etsy make me a special leather case because when I bring them out that's like I'm like this is this is some This is magic little bit you know, and we're gonna learn to go through the deck and I agree there's just something that you conversate because I don't think most client especially when you want to involve like the leadership team half the words like they don't have the words and so the conversation that comes up out of these is so amazing. But look, summon another team had already written kind of what was considered the book on archetypes, you know, and Carolyn Pearson and Margaret mark and, and they they wrote they wrote about 12 of them so like, why not? Like, why is that not just enough? Like, why did you create this amazing book with six because now it seems so easy and obvious to me, but like, also must seem really daunting. You know? Like, like, why didn't you think that there was a market for this? Well, first Margaret Hartwell 25:02 off, I mean, the here on the outlaw wow, you know, this is all the work is standing on their shoulders totally I give them massive props, they were at the forefront of bringing this, of course into the business and branding world. And so it just wasn't nuanced enough for me. I from I started out, you know, looking at things and they, they felt like they were bordering on stereotypes, or, like so many words that kind of find their way into their vernacular that they end up losing their meaning losing their unique essence and stuff. And I think that's true as culture evolves is that, you know, words go in and out of having meanings. So I didn't see any thing wrong with trying to, you know, nuance something a little bit, you know, nuanced the magician, to an alchemist. You know, why, why wouldn't you do that? And so I guess, I mean, then the next probably another theme, you know, people ask me, why do you do this? I think or why did I do anything? Like in my life, man? Pretty much my answers were Why not? Do it? So, yeah, it was a little daunting. And on the first to say that, you know, we're here with writing any book that gets published? Like, I go back, and I shake my head, like, No, no, I should put that there should have put that there. You know, there's always improved room for improvement. So, yeah, just, I've got a list on my computer of the next kind of set to flesh out with people. And I'm looking for a way to, to maybe do that in a collaborative sense. So, you know, somebody came to me and said, will you work with me, as a brand new practitioner, we work with me to find this as a unique expression of an architect for this client. And we did and we completely front fleshed out the connoisseur. And it was super fun and super cool to work together like that. But I love your cover. And that makes me You just can't know how much it means to know that something that I've poured my heart and soul into, has meaning for people. It's really, it's really lovely. And I love that they've got the little cover for it and everything. Marc Gutman 27:25 No, I mean, means a lot to me, it's meant a lot to people I've worked with and clients, and did you do the artwork on these cards? Is these your design creative, Margaret Hartwell 27:33 creative director, creative director, with Josh, he and I both, but we had an amazing team of designers. So the breadth of designers, you know, of course, you see different styles all throughout there, but we all know so so we're kinda It was kind of our, our backstop if you will, like, if this wasn't going to work, we thought, Well, at least we'll have something that we could say, well, I don't like green or, you know, like, I like that style of design that clients could say. So we're backing ourselves up with some some other layer of meaning or usefulness in the design world for that, hence, the different designs. Oh, Marc Gutman 28:14 yeah. And I find archetypes. So interesting. I've often just thought about, like, completely writing an entire agency process around our top the bottom, like just being like, like archetypes, I haven't gotten there yet. But when you work with clients, what's kind of your go to way of using archetypes? How do you like to start with the cards and the conversation? And what do you ultimately hoping they're going to, they're going to land on or discover, Margaret Hartwell 28:40 right? So I'm rarely hired to do the one thing to do just the archetype work. It's, it's odd how the first they'll come, because they want to do architectural work. And then we have the initial conversation. And it always kind of flushes out into something that's more what you would just call a big brand strategy, like the work that you do. So the archetypes are, I see them as part of the Gestalt of your brand strategy in a sense that you can't ask them to do all the heavy lifting. And also, I think that they're evolving. So as as stakeholders change and their relationships with the brand change, then they have to, they have to have a certain developmental path to them as well. So I usually include a developmental path for an architectural approach. But to your question about how do I, how do I usually start? It's kind of a classic design thinking process where I do a kind of discovery phase to understand where there may be gaps or potential alignments to be found. And then we go into really exploring what has been done before because I don't want people thinking that you Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. What What can we use moving forward? And and then they usually just it's a codification of truly what value they're providing what values they have, what is their mission, you know, and getting them to distill that. And at that point, I do it pretty much the same way that that I said, I do it in the book, which is that you you just sort with a facilitated question process. And I think that's probably, if I will, you know, say the secret sauce is because you can't just do this digitally and go, Oh, I've got my archetype. Now, there's a deep reflection that says, You don't even tell you because you're doing it all the time to it reflects back something that resonates like you're almost you can feel it in the room when it when it's happening. There's that term entrainment, which is that musical term, where a frequency will start to create another frequency at the same resonant vibration, that's what I feel when we're starting to get close in the sorting process and in the questioning process. And then before we actually decide is not really the right word, because we've been revealing things all along. But before we say commit, choosing commit to a process of including archetypes throughout the value chain, we actually dig into the value chain, and see whether or not this this archetypical expression can come to life. In all the different areas of the business in the operations in the you know, in the processes and the systems in marketing and sales? How can it become a organizing principle for both the brand and the culture? So those are the kinds of questions I asked. And it's really more about chunking them down into modules that I do in the different workshops. And I use a lot of other exercises to, to elicit this, the kind of resonance that you will. And a lot of them are design thinking exercises, I like to really see how an art we put it to the test before we choose and commit. So what would this how would this affect the customer journey? Right? Does does this affect your value proposition? How does this align with, you know, the strategic path for the business? Because that might shift things as well? Like, are they on an m&a track? Because at that point, we're actually dressing up something differently than we would if we were a startup. So those overlays, the developmental overlays of the business come into factor as well. Marc Gutman 32:57 Do you find it hard to sort of back up or back out if you've chosen a archetype? And you've gone through this prototyping, if you will? And you're like, that's not working design? Everyone just kind of says, Yeah, like, it's not working? Margaret Hartwell 33:11 Pretty much at that point. No, you know, what, I'm curious to see what your experience with the process is. But for me, the process of this kind of introspection, and alignment of everything changes the way that people hold on to right and wrong. They, there's not as much about finding a solution, as opposed to finding a process that continues to reveal value. And it's not so solution based. So it's not just one and done, you know, everybody understands that this we're going this is some actually something that is going to grow along. And with an inside and outside of us, we've actually changed the game. And it you know, it's not for everybody. Some people really want just a solution. And it's pretty amazing to watch them fight. Yeah. And you just go Okay, well, this isn't the right time. I'm not the right one for you. So that's okay. Marc Gutman 34:19 A lot of it. And, you know, I think about that, I mean, one of the challenges I have with clients is they are so like, solution oriented, even when it comes down to working with archetypes. And so they're like, like, okay, like, what are we doing here? Like, what are we trying to get to and right, and, you know, so I've, I have put some parameters around it. You know, I'll say things like, Oh, well, we want to find your archetype that makes you want your like the resonates with your why or the architecture that makes you unique in your space. But that's just kind of the way I've done it because I feel like you have to put these like these parameters, so the client can understand what we're Trying to get otherwise, it's harder for them, it's a little too little too woowoo, you know, and Margaret Hartwell 35:05 I totally agree. And I'm kinda like them down the edge to kind of calm down the cognitive dissonance if you will. And usually, I've done a poll pre education about the value of archetypes and how they, you know, increase your economic value, when you know what a brand lead valuation looks like, and how it actually translate into an intangible asset for your m&a if that's what you're doing. And then also just, you know, really looking at educating them in a way that gets them on the same page, so that they, they'd let go a little bit to kind of shake some loose, so and then you can do those things without that. The other piece that I think that's been really important lately, for me, is Bernie Browns work fitting out founded, seemingly, you know, a long time ago, but I used the vulnerability and shame work in my startup in New Zealand a lot to build the innovation process, and that change people to that change their reactions, because using innovation tools requires you to let go of that kind of judgment. And then we're never going to get to the kind of creativity, or the kind of satisfaction from the daily work, if they were constantly protecting something, you know, shaming someone else judging someone else. So I've seen an architectural approach, have all kinds of, you know, secondary and tertiary benefits to people's relationships to people's understanding of themselves and how they want to move in the world. So it definitely can apply on way more levels than just in your brand. And for me, it's moved a lot into the culture space. Marc Gutman 37:04 A common question I get all the time is Mark, can you help me with our brand? Yes, we help companies solve branding problems. And the first step would be to schedule a no obligation brand clarity call, we'll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wildstorm comm and send us an email, we'll get you booked right away. So whether you're just getting started with a new business, or whether you've done some work and need a refresh, or whether you're a brand that's high performing and wants to stay there, we can help. After you book, your brand clarity call, you'll learn about our brand audit and strategy process, we'll identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh, will determine if your business has a branding problem. And you'll see examples of our work and get relevant case studies. We'll also see if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level. So what are you waiting for, build the brand you've always dreamed of. Again, we'll link to that in the show notes or head over to wildstorm comm and send us an email. Now back to the show. So my friend assha she's a brand strategist, she knew I was talking to you and she wanted me to ask you a question she she wants to know why some brand strategist like us use archetypes, then why some don't like what's your what's your thought on that? Like? We'd like sort of in what and perhaps, I think to broaden the scope of the question, What might those other brand strategist be be missing by not employing archetypes in their work? Margaret Hartwell 38:50 Oh, gosh, why do some users and some not? Well, I think there are a lot of people, regardless of what they do Alicia's in brand strategy, the think that there's a way, a way for the way. And that if you just do the way, then you'll just get what you want. There's like this linear, aided, you know, Zed kind of thing that you get. And they like they have a certain commitment to that kind of process. They give some confidence. They can replicate it, there's bits, it's something that they have identified with and studied with. But, gosh, I'm stopping myself, but I'm gonna go ahead and say it. You know, it's there was this guy who put archetypes in brain as he put it on his bullshit meter. And he said it was the sixth biggest marketing bullshit thing that ever was, and I just burst out laughing I and I thought it was great because it's like, we were right after Seth Godin work. And it was like, yeah, you made it right after so But I think that the gig is up for people in, in any form of consulting or business, or helping or creativity, maybe even anyone, that you can't bring your whole self to things anymore. And I think that archetypes, you have to do that. Now, what I mean to say, probably got my negatives caught up there. But the art and architectural approach, I think, just opens a door to a deeper level of connection with yourself, with your society with any any relationships. And I think understanding that branding now isn't is about is no longer push and telling it's relatedness. And we and I'm not saying anything that you are meant all of your listeners are already across. But it's an orienting principle to understand that a brand. Branding is really about increasing the value of a relationship, so much in the way that you would increase the value of relationship with your family or a friend or your community. So why do they not use them? I think they're scared of them, because they don't know how to flesh them out into a 360 degree, living and bodied way of being. And I will admit, I probably have a leg up here, because I studied acting, I mean, you I know how to step into a character and kind of feel what that is. Right? You know, I've done a ton of improv. So, you know, just the idea of sparking new thing of new ideas off of other people and being able to play in that space. I've studied a ton of psychology. So I understand motivation and behavior and how to move people in that sense. And I've also been in the art world and the sustainability world, where you understand that everything is connected on some level. And it's just, it's we're working in a system. So to answer your question, in the most long winded way, is that I think that people don't use them because they don't really grok the depth of them, and that they're part of a system. So they still see it as a separate, you know, branding is still something separate. I think it's like the thread that is, who we are, and who a company is. So that's why I think people who are naturally curious, and always continuously learning are the most successful brand. Practitioners out there for an archetypal strategy or for even if they don't use archetypes, because they're just, they're just curious about life and curious about people. And they look at the cross sections, which is what I think archetypes do. Marc Gutman 42:57 Absolutely. And that was a great answer. Not long winded. And you touched on this, but I just want to clarify, when when you're using archetypes in the archetypal analysis, are you starting off that way? and using it as a centering device? Are you doing it later? Like a lot of times? I'll do it later in the process, especially like when we're in a more typical brand strategy process like personality, voice and tone. That's where, you know, it comes up a lot for me, because I heard you speaking. Sounds like it could be very useful. Maybe in the beginning of the process, especially when you're talking about like purpose and why and why do we exist? Is that how do you approach that? Well, Margaret Hartwell 43:36 I've been criticized for always approaching everything uniquely, which is why I probably work harder than I have to. Because everything seems like it's some bespoke thing. Again, I have to say, I think I just feel my way, I wish I could say that there was a process but you can from the discovery, half an hour with with a company and a discovery session about what it is they're saying they want, what it is that they're doing, and asking them where they want to be revealed something that tells me then, where this needs to happen. And I've done it at the very beginning, just to kind of ground them into the notion of talking about what's going on in a story fashion with people that have specific drivers and motivations and then universal stories to them. I've done it in the middle, and I've done it with with each one of the little teams too. So that was an interesting one. Instead of doing it with the C suite. I went in and did the exercise with each one of the kinds of teams marketing and sales, Ops, HR, and even finance. So he did one with each one of those. And then I asked one person out of each one of those to come with me, and then we did it with the C suite Bigger. And those people were, were so that they were, of course, really engaged at that point. And loving the process, that they were the greatest kind of contagion excitement for the process that the C suite had to give up their Oh, boohoo on it all. And, and they were fed by the people that worked really were on the front lines, I don't like to use those metaphors. But you know that in the trenches with that with the company's purpose, and not just directing it, so I've used them at every different phase, it's this crazy, but it's really satisfying to walk back into a client's office and see the image of the car, somebody has it on their t shirt, or somebody is using it within a mug, or, or, or they're actually sitting there because we do some, some grounding work, I guess you could say, for creativity purposes, to get you in a place where you can hear your own creative news. And so they have a little technique that I teach them. So I'm watching them do it, it's pretty cool. It comes from Eric Moselle, who's a renowned kind of artistic and creativity coach. And so you know, it's a breathing process, but it it puts people quickly into a space of being able to channel the archetype, the story of that archetype. So, so yeah, it's it's everywhere. At the beginning, I think it was more that we use it right, we use it more in a kind of more traditional sense that it came, it came after, usually, after the collage, I used to do a lot of collaging, with people to try and get them to, to elicit what was going on visually for them, and also to hear how they would tell a story because we'd have them collage on a certain theme. And then they would have to tell the story back to the group, while listening to music telling me then which music actually worked for them, too. So it was it was a little bit more of a predictable process at that time. But then, I've seen it just it seems to work everywhere now. So lots of applications. Marc Gutman 47:14 So many. And that's and that's what's so great about archetypes, and archetypal analysis. What's it like? Being the archetypes and branding person being the expert? Like what's hard about it? Like what I mean, I imagine that a lot of people come to you for different things, you get a lot of probably comments and criticism, like the like, like the person that said, You were the six most bullshit marketing trend or whatever, like, exactly, yeah, I mean, what's what's hard about it, like, like being having put this work into the world, and so many people resonating with it and using it, which is great, but like, what, what don't we see about that? Margaret Hartwell 47:54 I guess, based on who I am, and I'm, you know, which is a overlay all unto itself to the work, I guess what's hard is that sometimes it does make me want to hide, like, I'm going to disappoint people, or that I won't be able to find it with them, or, you know, sometimes getting too egoic about and find it for them, you know, that somehow I will let them down. And I think that's been the gift and the challenge of having this work kind of fall into my lap, where the threads of my, all of my education and training and everything kind of came together is that the task now is again, to just recognize that, whatever is going to be is needs to be and to trust that we will get there together. And so to not get too attached, I think that's what's hard is that it's like having a baby in a way is like, Hey, don't criticize my baby. But do whatever, you know, good days and bad days, too. There's there's definitely people that like to criticize, and all I think back to is the way that Bernie Brown has brought the the quote about being, you know, kudos to the man in the arena, as like, Hey, I'm in the arena. Like maybe bloody but I'm, I'm in there, you know, one thing sincerely, to help and to, to guide in a way business to be the powerful force for change that I know it is, and I know it can be. So that's my whole driver of why I'm in it. So I just have to keep reminding myself that's what's hard. is even when you forget sometimes in the midst of it all that this is you have to return to your why, like you said earlier, you know, always Marc Gutman 49:55 so I imagine this is a lot like picking your favorite child But everyone, you know, and and, you know, I tell people, you know, I have three, I have three kids and I tell people, I don't have a favorite overall child. But I always do have a favorite at any given moment. And so yes, you know, do you have a favorite archetype? At this moment? Or what? What right now would you say? Is your your favorite archetype and why? Well, Margaret Hartwell 50:25 so I'll answer it from two different places. One from a play place, and one from a meaning place. Not that the two are, are not together. But what's happening in the world right now from a social justice perspective is soul destroying to me. And to me then, but I really, if we can awaken the strength of the activist in people that think that doesn't touch them, but it is shifting them. It's, I love the power of the activist. I love the confidence and the, the giving ness of it, you know, the, the infusion of doing what's really right for humanity. So that one's high on my, my favorite slash right now. I think from the play position. I cannot lie. You like big stories. I cannot like I like the provocateur, I cannot lie. I just, it's anything that wakes people up is totally my favorite thing. Marc Gutman 51:36 So what's your favorite? What's your favorite provocateur brand right now? Margaret Hartwell 51:41 Oh, Marc Gutman 51:43 that's such a tough question. But like what's like, just what's one that's on your mind? And that represents that archetype? Well, well. Margaret Hartwell 51:50 So this is where I think that what I'm going to name is, is actually a company where I think that the provocateur is either a secondary or tertiary. But the insurance company lemonade, has they're they're disrupting and provoking a different mindset around the insurance industry. Are you across their work? Marc Gutman 52:11 Yeah, I'm familiar with lemonade. Oh, yeah. Margaret Hartwell 52:13 It's I just think it's amazing what they've done with, you know, machine learning to get claims processed quickly, and, and that it's actually in the benefit for that the collaborative in a way. So I think that that's part of they've provoked people to say, I don't need to accept this. So I think I think there's probably a big provocateur in that company right now. But I wouldn't say that they're provocative or bland. I really think they're citizen brand. Citizen Jester, actually, cuz I just think they're fun. You know, funny. Marc Gutman 52:54 Talk a little bit about that really quick. I mean, you mentioned primary, secondary, tertiary, like, how do you organize that and use that as overlapping lenses? when you're when you're talking about archetypes? Margaret Hartwell 53:05 Yeah. Um, I do. Again, I know I said this in the book, but I do kind of think of it as you're wearing different clothes, you're still the same person. But when you go hiking, you're not going to wear black tie, you know. And so the primary and secondary and tertiary show up, like you just said, as lenses for I like to think of them as facets of, you know, like a, like looking at a kaleidoscope if you if you change the the orientation just a little bit, you get a completely different color picture and all that it's still the same Kaleidoscope and it still has all the same parts, you're just choosing to put one part of it forward with the intent of not being what kind of sycophant Would you like me to be, but with the intent of actually connecting? So what part of me is going to connect the most what authentic part of me, so if that's my tertiary, or you know, the fine, if that's the tertiary archetype, that's fine. Um, for I'm just thinking of a way that this was kind of quantified is that we had metrics, we established metrics for kind of how much of certain pieces of communication would be in the primary, secondary and tertiary. So we tried to keep a balance, we graded basically how the writing was netting out in terms of the stories so that we understood that we weren't over indexing on one or another. And that if we did find ourselves shifting around, or being uncomfortable with it, it was time to refresh Marc Gutman 54:47 of it. I love it. And so, you know, I started off the show, introducing you as an innovation consultant, innovation coach. What is that like? Like, what is like, what does that mean? And how does that show up for you? Because that's where you're focusing your time right now, Margaret Hartwell 55:01 I think I, basically, I'm a change person, I just am a change agent. And that's usually what I get hired to do is to do some kind of change with people, whether it's on a one to one basis, or on a company basis or a family basis, because I, I also do just coaching with people as well, executive coaching. So, you know, I have attorneys and CEOs that are looking for a different way of showing up and recognizing, much like you said earlier in the, in our chat, is that you kind of know, something is going on inside of you. And an architectural lens can help with that, and other kinds of connection as well. So, innovation is just a thing for me a fancy word for creative change. So I like to say that I instill creative courage in people. And that's what I do, and help to do. Marc Gutman 56:07 Why is it hard for people, your clients to have creative courage? You know, it's not easy? Margaret Hartwell 56:13 Yeah. Well, we've been fed a pretty steady stream of fear breaks, you know, steady diet of fear, recently, a lot. And I think that the, the macro world is also making us feel very, you know, insecure, and, and changing. And so it's hard to have the courage because we've been taught that we can't fail. And that's not real. You know, it's like, like, good relationships don't have conflict. No way. You know, like, yeah, and if you're a successful person, you don't fail. Sorry, the human beings, you know, the more we can just say, yes, awesome, that just came up, let's go there. I think that I'm just keep looking at your hat mark. And I think that's really where everybody's unique brilliance is, is recognizing that all those things are baseline, all those things are to be embraced. And if you if you just left them out of the right wrong box, then they're all actually just gifts and tools to be applied to however you want to live and be and do. Marc Gutman 57:25 And so we're in the midst of a pandemic, pandemic, hopefully winding down. But how have you been dealing with archetypes because I talked a lot about, you know, my box and my cards, and it's so magical to be in a room. So how have you translated this into a tool that people can use virtually? Well, Margaret Hartwell 57:45 I think I've mentioned to you that my favorite tool is Miro, how give them a shameless plug, I don't own any stock or anything. But to me, that has changed everything. The ability to collaborate in a virtual space on a whiteboard in that way with post its I mean, I can run innovation workshops in the same way that I did, you know, physically, it is what I had to get used to was using a couple of different monitors to make sure that I could still really catch into people's reactions and in their engagement. And so how is it changed the way I facilitate? Well, I, I'm much more cognizant of getting people to, to play specific roles for me, I don't because I'm needing to watch in a way where I can't sense it as much. I have, I always have a timekeeper with me, that's only doing that somebody who's looking at my time to Agenda sit, you know, saying, Hey, we only got five more minutes for this one, what do we want to move. And also great note takers, because I can't do all those things. Virtually, I can actually take notes, when I'm there physically, and going around, because somehow that works out because it's kind of part of the making of it all. But it can't seem to do that in a virtual space. So having good note takers and people who are actually listening, and putting in putting the stuff into the boards has been important. I found that Nero was an easy way for people to sort as well, because they just, I just put up all of the archetypes and then they would just pull into piles. And then we'd sword again. So that's what it is. I think I've worked only with Miro and zoom. And now they have an integration. Thank you safeer Marc Gutman 59:40 Yeah, I like mirror to mirror if you're listening, I don't like your pricing model, we have to talk about that. We're not gonna use time, it takes a lot of management on my time. Like, I don't need to be managing like seats and things. But what I also wanted you to mention, you kind of alluded to it, but I just want everyone to know that Margaret has also digitized all the cards and so you You can go to her website, we'll link to that in the show notes. You can grab a licensed version of those cards and bring them into Miro, so that you can play around with them, which I think is amazing. You know, and I think it really, look, is it as good? No. But is it the next best thing? Absolutely. And I think it's really made things amazing. So I just want people to be aware of that if people are looking to get into archetypal analysis, like how would you suggest they get started? I mean, you know, I'm assuming get your book and then what? Margaret Hartwell 1:00:30 Well, I would like to get them sooner than that, in so much is, gosh, be curious, be hungry, you know, be a hedonist at the shore gets bored of life and just study and look and observe and witness anything that you can. And then once you've identified that this is really a path for you in terms of, of brand, don't stop learning about yourself and learning about myth and story and narrative. You know, that to me, I think is deepening your, your resonance with the impact that different messages have is one of the best ways to hone your skill at on earthing and revealing a true archetypical brand rallying cry, if you will. So, yeah, that's what I would say. And then yes, of course, you know, read Margaret, Mark, read Carolyn mace, read Joseph Campbell, you know, just read, read, read, read and watch. I think films are one of the greatest ways of learning about, you know, what is alive in a culture? What are the influences, so I guess it's really more just about being really hungry, and for knowledge, and for input stimulus, and looking for the intersections and then making sure that they also somehow come together for positive meaning, and that you take responsibility for the impact that you create. So that the way I would say get in how to get into this business, you know, follow your nose, you'll be led. Marc Gutman 1:02:12 And if you're listening, I'll just say, Margaret's being humble. Her book synthesizes everything. I'll admit something right here on the show, I have tried to read Joseph Campbell's work like 100 times I get through maybe 30%. Each time at best. I want to tell everybody that I'm a Joseph Campbell person. It's pretty, it's pretty rough. So if you want to go through that, you know, some of that academia Be my guest. But if you want to have something that's quick and actionable, and synthesizes it with some beautiful artwork, as well, as great words, I highly, highly recommend the book, Margaret. Unknown Speaker 1:02:48 Thanks, Mark. Marc Gutman 1:02:49 What's Yeah, by the way, I keep seeing your name Margaret Hartwell on zoom. I'm like, What a cool name like Margaret. Well, like it sounds like like, like, maybe work like at the newspaper and a comic book or something like murder. I just love it. But what's next for Margaret Hartwell? What? What are you most looking forward to? Margaret Hartwell 1:03:07 Well, I'm looking forward to getting back with people. Gosh, I missed I mean, I'm kind of an introvert. I am an introvert. And I didn't realize how much I really wanted to be around people. So what's next is really enjoying being able to just connect with people in all areas of work and play and community and everything. I think your question was probably more in terms of what am I going to do next? Or where is my work taking me? Unknown Speaker 1:03:36 Am I right? That's one Marc Gutman 1:03:37 way to take it. Absolutely. Margaret Hartwell 1:03:39 Well, so strangely enough, I've gotten to travel the world with work, and I've just loved being able to do it. And I really am traveling hard, you know, three, four trips to China, New Zealand, Australia, it gets really hard. And I I've been getting a little tired of it. So my partner and I actually bought a huge Victorian in Salem, and we've been renovating it. So now the hope is that we bring kind of the world to us here. So that's one component of it. Because it's amazing how many people that have booked into our Airbnb have actually read the book, this wild lady, well, I guess Salem's kind of all archetypes, right? So that's kind of just in the background for fun, but it's really, I'm really keen to move into more of a coaching and teaching place at this point. I'd like to keep on, you know, maybe 234 clients, but teachings really amazing. I taught at the California College of the Arts, and it was one of in the design MBA program and I loved it and so I think the future is going to hold more Teaching and building out an online course right now again, when came out when the book was first published, but it was less than what I'd be proud of. So doing that building that out. And, and we'll see how the coaching goes really working with individuals, practitioners who want another sounding board or another input for bigger clients that they're doing this work with. Marc Gutman 1:05:26 And we'll make sure to link to all your contact info in the show notes, if anyone's interested in continuing that work with you. Margaret Hartwell 1:05:32 Yeah, I will say Mark if people want to, you know, if they want to follow me on Instagram, and then send me a message, just put the vgts or what does that maybe not backstory did GPS. There it is. What is it again? Mark, Marc Gutman 1:05:47 BG bs? No, no. Yeah, PGP Margaret Hartwell 1:05:51 got back. So yes, sir. Just put that in your message. And I'll send you an email to give you a discount on the the course when it comes out. So Marc Gutman 1:05:59 that's fantastic. Thank you for that. I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of people who are interested, Margaret, as we come to a close here, and we're running out of time, I'm going to think back, I want to think back to that. That little Margaret version of yourself that was singing and dancing and, you know, didn't have a care in the world. And what do you think she'd say, if she saw you today? Margaret Hartwell 1:06:24 She's probably say, See, I told you so. And that she, she had such faith, that being a hybrid divergent was okay. And that she just lived it and all that and expend a lot of time trying to get back to that place. So they are an archetypical perspective, the book, all of it came together. And that would be her closing shot. I think it's like, See, I told you, so he told you, it'd be okay. You'd get it all, all the creativity, all the fun people, all the arts, you know, all the meaning. It's all there. Marc Gutman 1:07:08 Then that is Margaret Hartwell, author of archetypes in branding, go buy the book, we'll link to it in the show notes. And look, I get nothing from your purchase, I have no vested interest or incentive in you buying this book. Other than I want you to open up your aperture, broaden your possibilities. And think, a little more human. One thing we touched on, but didn't really explain is that the book explains all this awesome archetype stuff. But there are also 60 cards in the back that punch out. So you can get a full deck of cards too. You can apply this in your branding work, professional life, writing personal life, there really are so many applications, go to Amazon and get the book right now. One nugget that stood out to me was when Margaret said, brand is about increasing the value of a relationship. And at the end of the day, that's it. Now how we get there isn't always simple or easy, just like real relationships. But I think what matters is that we show up. We keep working at it, because we want to because we care. And over time, the value of that relationship increases even when we make mistakes, put her foot in her mouth, or have a bad day. brands are no different. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. It was such a treat to talk with Margaret here her perspective and learn about what she's doing next. I'm not joking when I say Margaret is a hero to me. And I hope you got as much from this episode as I did. A big thank you to Margaret Hartwell. I want to be your BFF let me know if I can send you one half of a branding BFF locket and we can make it official. We will link to all things Margaret Hartwell in the show notes, her book, her website, her course. Well, all things and if you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wildstorm calm. Our b

BGBS 066: Gregg Bagni | Alien Truth Communications | Only the Clever SurviveGregg Bagni is the founder of Alien Truth Communications. He works behind the scenes with organizations in the outdoor, bike and natural food worlds where he offers up energy, direction and expert business strategy around branding, marketing & product development. He is also a partner with White Road Investments and claims to be the luckiest being on this planet. ‍ ‍ ‍ In this episode, you'll learn…Define your goals and keep them somewhere you can see so when you're discouraged, you can always remind yourself where you are headed. It will give you the motivation to make it happen Greg's experience turning a dead brand around in the public's minds and helping it succeed It does take incredible intensity and tenacity to get from $0-10 million, but always remember, only the clever survive ResourcesLinkedIn: Gregg Bagni Quotes[21:33] I have always been a product developer, first and foremost. I don't know jack about brand, or marketing, or sales or investment, and I've got experience in all those areas but at the end of the day, I'm a product geek. I love building stuff and building it from the ground up. [49:24] I'm hoping to get another 20 years on this planet, but I'm planning for 20 seconds. [55:16] Saying no is probably one of the most important pieces of doing business. [56:13] I've always over-delivered. I've never been afraid to go the extra mile. It's just the little sh*t sometimes. Have a Brand Problem? We can help.Book your no-obligation, Wildstory Brand Clarity Call now. Learn about our Brand Audit and Strategy process Identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh Determine if your business has a branding problem See examples of our work and get relevant case studies See if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level Book Your Brand Clarity Call TODAY Podcast TranscriptGreg Bagni 0:02 In that guy's little sort of work area, he had one of our ads cut out of the magazine taped up on the side of the wall. And I'm not kidding you, I went in the bathroom and I kind of wept for a second. And I walked back out, I said, Hey, dude, what's up with the ad in your cube? There he goes, Hey, and then the headline was no calves nor glory. That was the headline. He goes, What do you mean? no gas, no glory. And I wept again. I thought this could work. We might get over on this one. It was such an exciting time to to be able to take a dead brand and turn around both financially and perceptually. You know, in people's minds, it was just, I had to tell you, it's hard to put it into words how exciting it was. Marc Gutman 1:00 podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and today's episode of Baby got backstory. We're talking to a real life alien. Well, sort of, for all you Earthlings that only understand Earthling type labels. We're not an alien. We're talking to a career brand builder than mission driven investor. And before we get into the alien episode of this show, I am asking all you Earthlings to rate review this other worldly podcast on Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings, this part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. And when life from other planets does come to earth, and learns about podcasts. Don't you want it to be the baby got backstory podcast that is representative of all our human accomplishments. I thought so. Thanks for the review. Today's guest is Greg bagni. Greg is you'll hear has been on this planet for most of his life, and currently is the founder of the brand consultancy alien truth communications, as well as a partner at the esteemed mission driven investment firm, white road investments. Greg works behind the scenes with organizations in the outdoor bike and natural food worlds, where he offers up energy direction and expert business strategy around branding, marketing and product development. As you'll hear in today's episode, Greg claims to be the luckiest being on this planet. And I believe him. Greg's experience is vast. from helping to turn around the then bankrupt iconic brand Schwinn to advising mission driven businesses and entrepreneurs. Greg doles out the golden nuggets and my notepad is full of stars and scribbles. And I think yours will be too. Here's Greg bagni. In this is his story. All right. I am here with Greg bagni, the founder of alien truth, communications and partner at White road investments. Greg, welcome to the show. Greg Bagni 3:40 Ack ack Nice to be here. I can't tell you how happy I am to be here today. Ack Ack that's Marc Gutman 3:47 such a great lead in because why don't you tell us a little bit about kind of what Ack Ack means to you and why you open up that way? Greg Bagni 3:56 Well, you know, actually, the greatest movie ever made on this planet? Is Mars attack. I mean, that's it. I mean, I'm not saying there aren't other good movies but that is the greatest movie that's ever been produced. And if you watch the movie, all the aliens in that movie sort of say Ack Ack I got that good. It's that's how they communicate. So I brought it up as a just kind of a greeting and actually have colleagues and friends that we will talk back and forth on the phone for several minutes just using that one word and it's actually kind of interesting. Marc Gutman 4:35 Well, I like that social experiment and and why I ask as well is that you are a how do you how do you say it? I want to say it right? You're a self described alien or you are an alien. How do you phrase it? Oh, you know, Greg Bagni 4:52 I'm trapped here on planet earth and my only escape is mind adjustment. Yeah. You know what, I will We'll say this, you know, I've always struggled to fit in here, I had to try extra hard to sort of get in the groove here. I've always been a bit of a dork and a geek. So with that said, I never really felt like I was from here. So, you know, when I went out on my own 21 years, four months, in one day ago, I sort of said, Well, you know, let's call a business alien truth communications, LLC. You know, I mean, I'm sort of into what we call for authenticity, fa UX, where, you know, there are times when you'll talk to me where I am dead serious about not being from here. And there are other times where you know, that I'm absolutely foolish it. So it's, it's kind of by design that way. And I've always tried to solve problems a little differently. And things do look differently when you're standing on the earth, or whether you're orbiting, it's a completely different viewpoint. And I think that's kind of the alien truth is to sort of look at problems from a different viewpoint, and solve them differently. So you really can be distinct and strategic about it. Right? Marc Gutman 6:07 Absolutely. I love that. I love that. That perspective that's rooted in your, in the name of alien truth. And let's talk a little bit about what you said about this idea of never really feeling like you fit in here feeling like that, you know, you're been a bit of an outsider. And is that something that has always been with you from as long as you can remember? I mean, was little Greg having trouble to fit in? Greg Bagni 6:31 Dude, I need to lay down on your couch now, don't I? Is that what's going down here? Well, perhaps perhaps, I'll be vulnerable doc. I'm okay. You know, I'm physically I'm different. You know, it's funny, I'm, I'm old now. So it's been I've always been a ginger. So I was the redheaded, freckled, short, little chubby black glasses geeky, you know, one in the neighborhood. So that was the first step of really not fitting in, I don't know what the percentages of redheads versus others, but it's a small percentage, and that automatically set me apart. And I and so because of that I I think that was part of it, you know, just not fitting in. So because of that, because you didn't have that visual. Now, dude, you're a good looking humanoid, you know, you got that look about you, I can see you here on zoom. And you're, you're there. I always had to sort of rely on humor and being clever to survive. And then finally, when I was about a senior in high school, I actually started to grow. And I went from like, I grew like six inches, and in a year, year and a half, something like that. So that helped a little bit. But I've always been, I've always been a little bit off that way. Without a doubt. Marc Gutman 7:56 Oh, thank you for your kind words about my appearance. It must be my my zoom filter. I appreciate that very much that is it in my head a little bit. But in so where did you get your start? Where did you grow up? Greg Bagni 8:09 You know, when I basically grew up in the Chicago Chicago suburbs, born on East Coast, but got dragged here when I was relatively young, and grew up in Chicago suburbs and learned to cut my teeth here. You know, I was, since I'm on your couch, you know, I was supposed to be my parents told me I was supposed to either be a dentist or an insurance agent. That was the plan. Excited? Yeah. And I was kind of, I was not on that program. And you know what, when I, when I was in college, I read I got into college radio, and was a DJ and ran the radio station for a year we had staff, volunteer staff of 70 people, you know, I mean, it was a really great experience for me. But I've always been a music lover I I still play my cello and and I'm a bad drummer and a terrible guitar player. But I was always into music. And then when I got out of college, I just couldn't get close enough to it. I worked in a couple of small commercial stations in the suburbs that sucked. Wk DC the sound of D page. Okay, I don't know. I don't see anything else more than that. And, you know, when I got into the music business in a really roundabout way, I just had some friends that were in bands and I started I started as a roadie and started pushing cases around road cases and setting breaking shit down. And then I built a commercial stage lighting system from the ground up. And at the time, as it was a bicycle shortage and outdoor gear shortage. Now there was a lighting instrument shortage at that time and this was this is way back. This is like in the Oh probably 1979 or 80 shows you how old I am. And I ended up selling my system to somebody who wanted all my gear. I was ready At the time to, usually to rock, commercial and fashion is what I was doing and making a living, it was actually pretty cool. I was in my 20s. And so I sold all my stuff I did the smartest financial move I ever made. And I put a down payment on a house with that money. And then one of the bands that I was working with, I went to work for them. And I became their tour manager on a scale of one to 10. If one's a GarageBand, and 10 is a national act, we were about a seven and a half. So between maybe, I don't know, I don't know, between like 81 and 84. I was in it for about seven years. But that last three years, we opened or did double bills for everybody. We had a couple of hit singles and some records out. And it was a really great learning experience. And I had a crew 13 and trucks and motorhomes and hotels and shit and all the rest of that stuff. So I learned all about management by crisis Marc Gutman 10:55 was the name of that Greg Bagni 10:56 bad and professional babysitting. So it was really a great sort of that was really kind of my first job. But then, in the meantime, I did all these other crazy stuff. I became a I was a carpenter, I you know, I worked retail, I promoted events. You know, I did all sorts of crazy shit on the side. And then when I was I was a late bloomer. When I was 37, I got my first real job. And that's when I went to work for Schwinn, I was lucky, I was an independent sales rep at the time, driving around about a nine state Midwest region, selling bikes and bike parts, shitty ones, actually, to retailers. And I was standing in the right place at the right time. And I got that gig at Schwinn. And then we picked them up and moved them from Chicago to Boulder. They were bankrupt. And it took us four years. And we brought him back to number one in the US and units. And then we were owned by typical private equity. And they got ready to flip this for the third time in seven years. And I said, You know what, I think I know enough now that I can do this on my own. I don't want 2000 employees anymore. So alien truth is a one person shop by design with, you know, 2030 years of subcontractor experience around me, you know, people I've known that long. And I just started working for brands, mainly helping them figure out who they are and what to sell and who to sell it to. And can I drop an F bomb? Marc Gutman 12:21 Of course, friendly. So, Greg Bagni 12:23 So was this it was like, Who are you? What were you sell who you sell it to? And what the fuck Will you say no to? And that was it. That was kind of the start of it. And I started, I started getting people hiring me. And it was amazing. I mean, great brands. But you know, I had a target. I usually worked with companies somewhere between 10 and 20 million in revenue up to about maybe 250 300 million, because after that was really tough for them to sell me. And yeah, we get this guy is one person shop, he says he's an alien, and we really want to work with them, the board would be like, get the fuck out of here. Marc Gutman 13:03 Market Fit, right? Greg Bagni 13:04 There's my story in like two to three minutes. And so I went out on my own. And I've been doing that ever since. And then about 10 years ago, I started working 1011 years ago, I started working part time for white road investments. And we're a mission driven investment fund. And we're kind of a family office, we Gary Erickson and Kate Crawford, the founders of Clif Bar, they've done very well. And they always wanted to give back to small companies. And that's what we do. So I'm, I can't tell you how lucky I am. First of all, to not be a dentist or an insurance agent, and second to have landed here in this spot that I'm standing on right now. Dude, it's incredible. And I'm not kidding you. I really mean that when I say it. Marc Gutman 13:52 I believe. Let's back up a little bit. What was the name of the band that you were the tour manager for? Greg Bagni 13:58 They were called the kind? Ghandi. Yeah, and and I know that's playing for good weed. But at the time, it was more slang for not fitting in, it was more about the band would walk into somewhere like a restaurant or whatever, and then say we don't serve your kind here. And, and so I fit right in with that group, you know, and it was really, it was really a fascinating way to hit singles. And we're based out of Chicago, and it was an incredible experience. And I played from the shittiest clubs, you know, where they've, you know, it's a couple 300 people to 20,000 seat halls. So it was all sorts of just a really good well rounded experience of I learned so much about production. I learned so much about people. I learned a lot about scheduling. And you know, the show when they tell you when you're opening for another band and there's 20,000 people in a room and then You start exactly at 805. It takes a lot of management skill and execution of skill to get everybody together there at 805 claim. So I learned a shitload about that. And it was a fascinating education. And I had a lot of fun too at the same time. Marc Gutman 15:16 Yeah. And what is what's hard about running a band like that? You know, from from the outside, it seems like it's all fun. And it's, it's a bit like a mash up of like, almost famous or something like that, you know, like, we're all hanging out and just being with the band. But what's hard about it? Greg Bagni 15:32 The character, the personalities, there, you know, did you get banned level personalities Did you get to put together, and then there's this crew level personality, too, you got to go out and be out on the road, y'all got to get along. You know, you know, as a matter of fact, on a side note, I live by three rules. One of them I learned in the music business, and that rule, and I still use it today, my colleagues, we refer to it all the time. It's called one asshole comment per day. So I believe that everyone is allowed one asshole comment per day, when you're out on the road, and you got to live with these guys. And you got to get along because guess what you're on that night at 805. You know, and you have to get along. The asshole comet roll comes in. So the way it works is pretty simple. You say something to me, we're in a, we're in a vehicle driving from point A to point v b for hours. And you say something to me. And like, it is not nice. And I look at you and I go, Hey, man, that is your one answer or comment per day, you know, I'm going to give you a flyer on that one, I'm going to give you a pass at the same time, when you get to know the rule, you can actually use it in reverse. I'm about to say something to you that I know might piss you off. So I'm gonna say excuse me, but can I make my one asshole comment for the day? And then they say yes. And then it's a really, it kind of breaks a wall down. And when I say hey, you know, about 10 minutes ago, you did this or you said something or you know, this went down. And then you can kind of talk about it. So, to this day, I learned about the one household comment per day. The problem is most people say is resent mean, I can make an SEO comment per day per person. And when and then I go, Hey, when you're starting to ask questions like that you're abusing the rule, right? You're only making one per day in general to all humanoids as a as a group, right? Marc Gutman 17:29 Yeah, let's let's lay that, that framework down one per day, don't go crazy with the one asil comment rule. But I love that that's so great. And when you're going through that experience, I mean, it's quite a, it's quite a jump from being in the music business and being on the road and doing those sorts of things to the bike business. Like what, what was that gap? And what was going on at that time? Can you set the stage for us? Like, where was Schwinn? What did it look like? Like I was, Greg Bagni 18:01 I made the mistake of making my hobby, my business. I've always loved bicycles from a little kid. It was to me as close as you could get to flying while still being on the planet. So I was always a bike freak. I love bicycles. And then you know what I said, you know, I'm going to I'm going to try and get a job in a bank business and no one would hire me. I finally convinced a Japanese company whose product was overpriced, the wrong color, the wrong SPECT and weighed too much, you know, I convinced them to hire me and I became a sales rep and then eventually started doing the marketing forum. And I was there for about three, three and a half years. But it was really a setup. It was like playing pool, I was setting up an X shot Schwinn was in Chicago, this company was in the suburbs. And I started positioning myself and really learned that the retailer base in the Midwest. And that's kind of how and why I ended up in the bike business. But I thought, you know, this is perfect. It's something I really love. And I think I can kind of take that love that what we call the intensity of complete attention as a monomaniac around it. I mean, I purposely put myself out of balance for that seven years, 49 dog years, that was that chillin. And I knew what I knew that I needed to do that, but all that road time that I spent, and all the time I spent with unique personalities. And it really, it really paid off for me, you know, I mean, hey, I'm not proud of this, but I spent a lot of time in hotel rooms, you know, I mean, I haven't flown since March 2 of last year. And I think that that year before I did, like, I don't know 60 to one ways, you know what I mean? I know people that are traveling more, but at the same time, so a lot of travel and you know, music business kind of warmed me up for that. So I was ready to go out on the road and do what I needed to do. So getting a Schwinn was Kind of a, you know what, I am a little bit of a weirdo I had this thing in my head, I've always been pretty goal oriented is goofy as that sounds or is stayed is that is I said, you know what I'm going to go to work for a US based company, they're going to either be number one, number two, or number three in the marketplace. And I'm either going to run or be an integral part of their marketing department. And I had that written down on a little piece of paper and I looked at that mofo every single day. After I went on a sales call the company I work for what's called Miyata is a Japanese company, I would go on and call on a retailer, and I would just get my ass kicked. I mean, it was a great exercise and understanding and dealing with rejection. So every time I get my ass kicked, I pull that little piece of paper on my pocket and look at and I'm gonna, I'm, this is where I'm added. And then I got lucky again, and started meeting some people that were connected inside the Schwinn building. And I knew enough to be dangerous to say the right things to sort of say, hey, the reason you guys are going bankrupt? I'll give you a couple of thoughts around that, you know. So I started there, and it worked out. But back up Marc Gutman 21:14 a little bit like you're getting your tail handed to you, at this Japanese company, like what makes you think that you can go into some other company, and and fix it and be the hero, if you're, you know, working for this competitor? That's not very strong. Greg Bagni 21:30 You asked good questions. By the way, you know what, I have always been a product developer. First and foremost, I don't know jack about brand, or marketing, or sales or investment. And I've got experience in all those areas. But at the end of the day, I'm a Product geek. I love building stuff and building it from the ground up. So I really understood the product side of things. And I understood how much potential there was, you know, this was 1993, when I went to work for twin, and the mountain bike boom was on fire. It was starting, it was rolling. And it was just like Schwinn had gotten behind on that they were to lock down and sell it and varsities and collegiates and all the other junk they were selling. And I just saw this huge opportunity to have this brand with unbelievable awareness. You know, and not in the bike industry in the sporting goods industry. They had like, top 5%, but their association sucked. You knew about them. But when you heard the name, you went, Oh, those guys. They suck. So I thought, Well, you know what? I understand rejection. So well, I bet you we can go in there. And we can start changing the product and start changing the perception of the brand and turn this baby around. And we got lucky and it worked Marc Gutman 22:49 out. And so how did you do that? Like, what was the insight you had about Schwinn? I mean, you mentioned a little bit that they had great awareness. But everyone thought there wasn't a cool brand. Like, it's one thing to see that like Then how did you go about actually turning that ship? Greg Bagni 23:05 Well, to get two years of bad press around bankruptcy, and I'm not kidding, it was two straight years of just bad press, always talking about the bankruptcy. And so we came up with this three step deal. The first one was you know what Schwinn gets it. So we started running, advertising and content, and creative all around the fact that we were different. And we kind of get it and we weren't afraid to admit what happened. We had an ad, we had a headline that said, we've see when you we've had one line and said that when you were bleeding like we were there's only one tourniquet, clean, wicked new product. We fell we got up and up apology was another one. So you know, I mean, from that standpoint, once they saw that we understood what it was like to be a hardcore cyclist and understand the market. And we hired when went to Boulder. We started with 75 people in that office. And when I left there was like 375. And everybody, you know, the customer service reps, when we got there were all people that didn't ride. They weren't fit, they smoke cigarettes, you know, and that was the customer service person to the retailer, the trade person, and we ended up bringing a bunch of bike geeks in so that first step was we get it and then it took us two years for the product development group to catch up. The second step was Schwinn builds it so all of a sudden we started coming out with product that was the right color that was the right spec that was lightweight that performed really well. You know, they told us that we would never sell a bike over $1,000 and I was just like that belt that thing came at the perfect time. Did it just perfect. Marc Gutman 24:57 Yeah, it's like a like a sideboard. Greg Bagni 24:59 Whoa. Can I turn that better? But you know, we said no, we will sell bikes over $1,000. And we did. And so then Schwinn gets it. Schwinn builds it. Step two. And finally, the third step was Schwinn is it? Meaning? Can we get to a point where people say, Hey, you know what, I'm gonna buy a new mountain bike. And I'm looking at this specialized. And I'm looking at a Yeti. And I'm looking at that Schwinn homegrown. And so you became part of that considered set. And it took us about five or six years, but we got there. And every single high end bike that we made, and we made limited runs, we sold out, we were backordered, our biggest problem was being on time for delivery. And I would always get pissed off at the product department. And technically, my title there was, what was it Senior Vice President of Marketing and product development. So I ran the marketing in the product group when I left when I was finally out of there, but I had a business card that said, balloons, banners and marketing on it. That was my technical title. That would be the card I would hand out. And then when the bankers came in, I'd give them the other card. Marc Gutman 26:13 That's why is it important to have a card like that, that says balloons, Greg Bagni 26:17 banners, and marketing? Because we all take ourselves way too seriously? Yeah. And you know, what, the, here's the thing, you know, I used to get in these huge arguments with the product group about this, they'd say, Well, you know, we ate this, this is, uh, you know, this particular ad, it's got to have, you know, we got to talk about the double butted spokes. And you know, it's got to, you know, but tubing, and it's all assuaged. And this and that, I'm not saying any of that stuff was cool. But in the first couple, three, four years on, we talked about, we just saw escape. That was it. We just, you know, there was an emotional attachment to the brand. And we sold escape, rather than getting down and dirty was back. And you know, what the goal was, and that was when magazines were still around. Now, granted, listen, I have adapted Well, I mean, I work with, with white row, we've done 25 deals. In 10 or 11 years, I work with 16 different companies, sometimes on a daily basis, it's an informed boards. With that said, I understand what it's like now. But at that time, when you had a magazine, we'd run these spreads. And the objective was the, the ads were so cool and so beautiful, that we wanted somebody to cut it out and tape it together, and then hang it on the inside of their cube. You know, about two years into this thing. I walked into a retailer, I don't even remember where it was somewhere in America. I walk into a retailer and I walked back to the area, the wrench area, the shop area. And in that guy's little sort of work area, he had one of our ads cut out of the magazine, taped up on the side of the wall. And I'm not kidding you. I went in the bathroom, and I kind of wept for a second pulled my shit together. And I walked back out. I said, Hey, man, What's up, dude, what's up with the ad and your cube there? And he goes, Hey, in that the headline was no calves nor glory. That was the headline. He goes, What do you mean, no gas, no glory. And I wept again. I thought, holy shit, this could work. We might we might get over on this one. It was such an exciting time to to be able to take a dead brand and turn it around both financially and perceptually. You know, and people's minds. It was just, I had to tell you, it's hard to put it into words how exciting it was. And I moved to Boulder from Chicago, which was great. And I and I rode my bike into work every single day. Even when it was snowing. I wouldn't give a shit. And people were like, dude, you're the most hardcore guy in the office. I'm like, Chicago, it's nice here. You get me? As long as it was above 18 degrees I would ride is Marc Gutman 29:08 a common question I get all the time is Mark, can you help me with our brand? Yes, we help companies solve branding problems. And the first step would be to schedule a no obligation brand clarity call, we'll link to that in the show notes or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email, we'll get you booked right away. So whether you're just getting started with a new business, or whether you've done some work and need a refresh, or whether you're a brand that's high performing and wants to stay there, we can help. After you book your brand clarity call, you'll learn about our brand audit and strategy process will identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh will determine if your business has a branding problem. And you'll see examples of our work and get relevant cases. studies will also see if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level. So what are you waiting for? Build the brand you've always dreamed of. Again, we'll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email. Now back to the show. It makes me think, like, how deprived this generation this kind of upcoming younger generation is that they don't have print media the way that we did, because as we're talking, I remembered, I mean, so much of like, how I would self actualize or how I would see myself was by taking like magazine adverts and spreads and put them on my bulletin board and whether it was, you know, a Burton ad or kaitou or, you know, something from a bike company. I mean, there was just this really interesting and and that that Now today's I don't know what they do, like, what do they do they pin something digitally, right, like, you just don't have that same. And I remember like the adverts on my bulletin board. I mean, some of them are like taped together, you know, like I had to like, mock them up. And it wasn't it wasn't pretty, but it like, I have one that I remember specifically from Vernay. And to this day, I still wear Vernay sunglasses as a result. But that's really cool. Greg Bagni 31:22 Yeah, there is something to be said about the tactile paper and ink thing. It's sensory, you know. So you're not only taking the visual side of it, but actually you can feel in touch it, you're flipping the page, or ripping Marc Gutman 31:36 it out, right and interacting and then putting it somewhere on your cube. I mean, that's a whole kind of interaction you're having with that advert that you just don't have. There's something Greg Bagni 31:44 he said for that. And you're right, it is missing. But I mean, now with visual displays and everything else, you can still get their reproduction. And now, you don't put you don't put the ad on the wall in your office or your bedroom. Now it's the wallpaper on your screen, right? Yeah. So it's all everything's still the same. It's just the medium changes. It's, I swear to God, you know, I'm watching some movie last night online streaming and in our ads that are coming on every 15 or 20 minutes, and I'm just laughing. When I see him. My wife goes, it's so funny, I go, nothing's changed. It's still the same. It's just Marc Gutman 32:22 just a different medium. So you were talking a bit about the turnaround plan. And it all sounds like hey, you had it together yet a three step plan, you hammered it and you did execute. You did awesome. But I have to imagine it wasn't all that easy. That it was like, from the beginning. It was like staring into the abyss. You mentioned you had two years of just trying to live down, you know, bankruptcy and what you had done, like, how did you keep the faith? Like how did you know that this plan was gonna work? Because I see so many marketers who are really quick to attack, you know, like they they set a plan, they have a strategy, they start to put it in place. But whether it's because of impatience and marketing pressures from things like you know, external boards and and investors, I see people tack all the time, and I even look back at my career, I look, if we just would have stayed on this one strategy, we would have been way better off, like, how did you keep it together and fight through what I have to imagine were dark times. Greg Bagni 33:28 Oh, it was, I'm glad you brought that up. Because it was not easy. It was very difficult. And there were a lot of personalities and, and you had the retailer base, there was no such thing as direct to consumer at that time, you know. So it was, it was really challenging. It was not easy. But the one thing we all had in common in the office was we all kind of had a Schwinn when you were a kid. So there was this emotional attachment, not just with the consumer, but between us in the office and, and we were given the big ftu to the industry. We were all all of us there had a chip on our shoulder. You know, we're like, we're gonna turn this mofo around whether you like it or not. And if you don't want to get on cool, you don't have to get on, you know, but we're going to do this really differently. And we, we shook it up, meaning whether it was the way we communicated the way our tradeshow booths looked, the way we ran advertising the way we use paint and colors and graphics on bicycles. We just shook it all up and went absolutely nuts. And, you know, I was just a piece there. It was a piece of that team. You know, there were so many other people there that had this incredible intensity to make it happen. So we managed to bounce back nicely from rejection because it happened to us a lot where people would say no to us, but then it got to a point where it was hard to say no, you know, and there was something to be loved about us because We were scrappy. And we took this, here it is, we took this iconic brand. And we acted like a challenger brand. That was really what it was. How do I become a lighthouse identity? How do I, you know, how do I really communicate to people? And how do I talk like number two or number three, even though they think you're number one, just trying harder all the time. And, and actually having some fun at the same time, because we always said, Hey, we're not selling nuclear bombs, or cigarettes, these are bicycles, and it's a lot of fun. And we all love the product. It was what we lived for. So with that attitude, drove the whole building who we hired was, you know, we were the way we hired and the way I mean, I'm still I still stay in touch with people I worked with 20 years ago. I mean, that that I talked to somebody yesterday that I cash Monday, he was the he took the VP of Marketing role when I left in cash was homeschool on a ranch in javas, New Mexico. That's how he started. And he sent us a letter and said, I want to work for you guys. And I read the letter, and I set it aside, then he sent a second one. And then we brought him in and we hired. I mean, it was that's the kind of stuff that scrappy, and people recognize that and really appreciated it. So we always made people laugh and had a lot of fun with stuff too. And I think that was what attracted people to us. But you're right, it was not easy. It was really difficult. It was two steps forward one step back all the time. But we just kept at it, you know. And the next thing, you know, I mean, a year passes, you know, and then all of a sudden another year passes, and then you're starting to get some traction, and the numbers are looking good and more retailers are picking you up. And the reviews and the expert were reviewing product and said this is really a great bicycle, you know, it's pretty cool. I mean, like, again, I was super lucky to be there. I didn't, I didn't really belong there. But I just kind of weaseled my way in, Marc Gutman 37:02 let's put it that way. Cash Monday, what a good name, right? Like that just sounds like born to be like a movie star or a VP of something for sure. You made the comment about that you made your hobby, your career, and that that was a mistake. What did you mean by that? Greg Bagni 37:20 Well, I have gray hair now. And that's part of the reason. You know, some, sometimes what happened to me was, every time I was on my bike, I was it was a rolling focus group. If I'd pull up next to somebody else, I'd be looking at what they were riding what they were wearing, I'd start asking them questions, you know this, that everything was all wrapped around that. And during that period, I kind of lost that true reason that I was on a bicycle. I did, I lost it. And then when I got out of the industry, and I kind of when I got out of the bike business, I sort of said, you know what I again, I wrote down on a little piece of paper, I'm going to get into natural foods world. And first I'm going to shift to outdoor, and then I'm going to shift to natural foods. And I work a lot in those two categories. Now I still work in a bike business a little bit. Not every day, though. But when I got out of the industry, then I started riding bikes, and oh my god, it was fun. Again, you know, this is cool, you know, and then I was living in Boulder. So climb in all the canyons there and all the dirt roads and every I mean everything we did at all. So for me, making your hobby, your business is a little dangerous. I mean, you got to keep your head on straight. And it's really hard to keep your head on straight. When you're trying to turn a brand around at the same time. You know, there's a lot of pressure that way. And I did, I worked a lot of hours. At one point, my partner there, his name is skip pass brilliant, brilliant product guy pain in the ass, but a brilliant product guy. He'd say the same thing about me, by the way. And I would say that to his face and he would laugh and say so are you but one point we looked at each other and I said, you know dude, I spend more time with you than I do with my wife. And that is a little bit you know, you got a little bit of an issue with your work hours and the intensity of what you're working at. I wrote this article fuse go it's called addicted to intensity. Boom, that was it, bro. I was way addicted to intensity or that seven year period. Marc Gutman 39:29 So with Schwinn being this amazing experience and turning the ship, why did you ultimately leave? Greg Bagni 39:38 Well, we were owned by private equity, typical private equity, which you know, at White road, we call ourselves a typical private equity. We're small, we're patient. We work directly on the ground with our companies. Typical private equity is the exact opposite. You either make your number or go get pick your mom up and go over to the corner there and start selling or off the street. You know, they don't give a shit. And so when they got ready to flip us for the third time, my job had changed so much. It was just one management presentation after another, they were just always trying to flip, sell, raise more money, do whatever it was, and I stopped being a marketing and product geek. And I turned into this presentation machine. And it kind of sucked. And so that last year, I knew I was gonna leave. And then they hired a CEO who was a total jackass. And, you know, I was raised in the Chicagoland area, and you know, there's a phrase you are, who you hang out with. And I realized who I was hanging with, and said, I can't do this anymore. And I don't even care if I'm unemployed and don't make any money, I am not going to do this anymore. So I made a decision, I gave him six months notice I said, I'm out of here in six months, because I don't want to screw you around and will have announced three weeks before I leave. And in the meantime, I'll set up a total succession plan for this place to run without somebody like me here. And we did, and it worked. And it was fun. And then it's funny, I have this little book called the Zen lessons that I've been carrying around with me for 25 years, it's beat to shit. And they're number 59 is called selecting your associates. And basically, it's like, you know, if you can honor and respect and model or mirror your behavior from your associates, then you should find another teacher, you know, and when the the guys that own the company at the time, flew in on their private jet. And he said my office and he said, I heard you want to leave. And then I opened the book up and showed him number 15. And I said, read this and he read it. And he said, You're right. You gotta go. I said, cool. He goes, if you ever need anything call me. I, you know, this was at the time. You know, there's a there's a firm on wall street called Donaldson Lufkin and Jenrette dlj. They were the first sort of brokerage house to go public back in the 70s. And Dan Lufkin was the guy that flew in, and Dan was raised on a ranch and he's in the rodeo, like cutting horse Hall of Fame or something came from nothing. I was in some fancy restaurant with him. And they they serve soup, and he picked the ball up and drank out of it. I knew this was he was cool, but all the rest of more assholes. So, you know, he sort of made some tough decisions. And I moved on and said, I don't want to 1000 employees anymore. It's just gonna be me. And that's when I started in the truth. And I've worked with some incredible brands, and I met Gary Erickson, from Clif Bar, when I was a twin, he was a $15 million dollar company. When I met him, they're a little bit north of that now. And I just hit him and I hit it off. I was like, wow. And then when I left when I started doing some projects for him, and the projects, nobody else would take, he called me up and say, Hey, I can't find anybody to do this. One project was so weird. I said to him, I'll do this. But you know what, you can't expect any results, meaning if I fail, you won't punish me. He goes, I'm cool. I'm good. We ended up succeeding with it. But I met Gary and Gary and I just hit it off. And then he started inviting me on these bike rides, because he knows that the Dolomites in Italy, like the back of his hand has been going there 30 years. And we were on one of these bike rides. Just all and that's what the meaning of a white road is. Wide roads, you know, a red road is the major superhighway, the yellow on the map is the medium and then the little white road is the little shitty road. That's going to be super adventurous and really cool. And it might take you longer to get there. But oh, it's going to be pitching stories afterwards, you might have to pick your bike up and hop over a few fences and run away from some charging ball or something. But you'll get there. And I was on a white road trip with him where we just go point to point with a little bag underneath our saddle. And that's it. You wash your shorts every night. There's your unsupported. Some goes wrong, you're looking for a bike shop, and you're speaking broken Italian, and I don't do that he does that. But we're on a trip and he said, Hey, we're going to start this small investment fund and we want to help companies like we wish we would have been helped and are you interested? Talk to your wife and I'll talk to my wife, but I'm in dude. And then about a year later, we were on another crazy bike ride in Northern California. Another area he rode what knows? Well, we, we did snow pass. We did Tioga, we went to Yosemite we did 300 miles in three days and climb 30,000 feet. I can't do that anymore. But he said well, it was June. He said we're really going to start it now. And so we started in August to September in 2010. And I the only three of us and I had no idea what I was doing. We noticed it and I didn't even know the other two guys. Gary said you're gonna love these other two dudes you don't know but you'll you'll work well together. I'm like, sure okay, because I trusted Gary company. In, it all worked out really, really well. And a lot of that experience from being in the music business, working retail, pounding nails, you know, being having a couple of small businesses, my own, all that really came into play with this whole white road gig, the last 10 years have been incredible. And we've had such impact, you know, in natural foods and outdoor on the environment, because we like these little mission driven companies. And it's been, it's the only reason I'm still working. Because the people are so cool, and they're younger, and they're energetic, and then it's like a magnet. It's bitchin, I can't believe I get to do this. That kid. Yeah, Marc Gutman 45:43 I believe you, I believe you. And for me, you know, white road almost represents like what I always dream about and my career, you know, you work in on other brands, you get to help them realize their vision, their mission base, I mean, it's just, it's something that that I aspire to myself and hearing you talk about it, it sounds just frankly, quite awesome to like, blast the question again, that I'd asked earlier. Like, what's hard about that business? What's hard about the investment business that that maybe we don't know? Like, you know, cuz to me from the outside, I'm like, oh, man, those guys are awesome. They just go by companies and help them out. And they have the good job, but I'm sure it's not all easy. Greg Bagni 46:22 Well, we've been unbelievably successful. I mean, my boss, Devin Clements, who's our Managing Director, and it's still there's only four of us. He told me, we're our results, our returns are like in the top five or 10% of all investment firms in the US, which Now granted, we're smaller, but we still have done very, very well. So that's the good the good news, the not so good news is the challenge is the exact same one is in the music business. It's people it's getting everybody on the same page. And founders can be really entrepreneurs and founders can be really interesting cats. But let me tell you, they are sometimes you know, it's an amazing thing. We have this, I'm writing a little trying to write a book around this, you want to help me all you can talk about that on site. It's called founder itis. So and I understand that so well. And that started for me in the music business. Because you know, everybody is an entrepreneur in the news business, everybody thinks they're gonna make it big, you know, but how do you get there. So I think the biggest challenge is the people side of things. And then the second challenge is getting from zero to $10 million. That is real. And I'm talking to annual revenue, I can't tell you how difficult that is, once you hit 10. Getting to 20 is easier, again, from 20 to 40, maybe even a little easier, but that zero to 10. That's the hardest part. And you got to be scrappy. And you got to be clever, because it's not only the strong survive, it's only the clever survive. And you need a level of tenacity and strength, power of the founder that that he or she has to have. And we're proud to say we work a lot with, with he's and she's, you know, which is really great. But people, people the humanoids are incredibly complex and interesting and unpredictable. So but you know, there's nothing cooler than I had happen to me yesterday, CEO from one of our companies, you know, they're probably 15 million now. So they broke that 10 million. And he called me up and he's in his mid 30s. And he called me up and he said, Hey, I really need to talk to you. And he's asking me all sorts of these really good questions wrapped around people wrapped around his own personal growth wrapped around his view worldview. And to me, that is where it's at, that you can have that kind of relationship with somebody, where and it's professional, don't get me wrong, it's not personal, it's professional, where you can really have that kind of relationship. And you can speak with good heart and mind. You know, good heart, mind, it's both sides of the equation. So you're really looking out for them, and you want them to succeed. And that part to be able to give back like that, boom. You know, as I always joke, and I'm not joking, I'm hoping to get another 20 years on this planet, but I'm planning for 20 seconds. So when you hang up a phone call like that, you know, it's just super rewarding. Nothing's better. Marc Gutman 49:37 Speaking of rewarding what portfolio company, I want to say, are you most proud of because I know they're probably like children, like you don't want to single them out. But if you could, if you could talk about one that you're like, really proud of like, which one might you mention? Greg Bagni 49:52 Why, you know, it's kind of funny at I, in a way I don't want to do that because then it sounds like there's a little bit of favoritism. But you know, right now this five minutes of my life, because like for example, sometimes you can only live your life five minutes at a time. That's how I was like a twin. And that's how it was the first couple years a wide road, that's how it was like you're only living in five minutes at a time. That's how expedient things can be. I get to that I'm really excited about one is rumble on a mana poetically spelled ru MPL, and they're in the blanket business, and they make high tech blankets for everywhere. I have one way to go. And their founder Wiley Robinson, it's just a piece of work, man. He's just and he's been through some hardship. You know, there's that thing hardship benefit, you got to get a little ass whipping to get to the benefit. We were talking about that earlier. He's been through some hardship benefit. And I think he's doing really, really well. Right now it's going well, the other one would be nice recovery, which is it's cool little cold and compression device that you don't need ice for it's got little refrigerator inside of it. And the guy who invented it, Michael Ross, the CEO there the founder, said Gary Erickson story, you know, Gary, get tired of after the fifth power bar. And along Ryan said I'm going to make something better. This guy got injured to use the competitive product and said this sucks, and then made some better. And then I'll give you one more skies from rare form AR ar e fo RM. They take PVC billboards, which end up in landfill. And then they clean them and cut them up and turn them into bags and accessories. And a couple of brothers Alec and Eric, just amazing story and amazing impact that this stuff doesn't end up in landfill. So it's, you know, yes, we want to give you three that I'm pretty excited about right now. That it's like, wow, these guys are gonna, this is gonna work. You know. Marc Gutman 51:59 That's awesome. And, you know, we I won't ask you what are the next 20 years look like for alien truth communications and right road investments. But how about the next five minutes? Like what's what's that look like? What's What are you looking forward to? Greg Bagni 52:14 Well, we're working on a couple of deals right now that are hopefully going to close that we're working on a couple of them ones in the bike industry. We can't tell you too much once in the bike industry. And it's very specialized. And that would be the wrong word. It's not specialized, but it's a very focused category. And the other ones in the workwear category that we're just very excited about. So I have my head down on these two and really want to see them come together. Not only is the product in the category, great, but the founders are like, really, really good people. So you know, there's this thing about a, I get this thing called IQ, you know, that's the number that you give your brain right. And then there's EQ, emotional intelligence, or what I call the equanimity quotient. And then, the last one I put up top is called v q, that's your virtue quotient. And these have high virtue quotients wrapped around them, the founders and the product and the category. And that's what we love. Jason is hi v q stuff. We The other way to say it is we'll talk on the phone, we have a weekly call with why road and we talked about a business and we'll say, Oh, you know that one has a lot of goodness in it. We like businesses with goodness in them, you know, where it's just, everybody's happy. Hey, if you want your marketing PhD, since up fire hosing you today, I'll continue on. If you want your marketing PhD in seven words, here it is. solve my problem. Make me feel good. There it is. And so when we see businesses that sell by problem and make me feel good, we're instantly attracted to them. We want to know more about them. So that and, and again, no cigarettes, no nuclear bombs. Right? Absolutely. Really quick side story. And then I know you got to go enough. Tell it quick. When I was a twin, this is a long story. We had pro racing teams promo by teams, pro stunt teams, you know, X Games, the whole deal. And we were always struggling. Those are multi million dollar programs. And we were always struggling to fund those. And Marlboro came to us because that's when Marlboro was heavy into motor racing and auto racing before the laws changed. And they came to us and offers a multi million dollar deal to sponsor our mountain bike teams. And it was the hardest no we ever said because that's where that term came. We don't sell cigarettes and we don't sell nuclear bombs. We all got around a conference room table. We all kind of literally held hands. And I and we stood up and said you know, we can't do this. Do we sell way too. Kids bikes, and we sell way too much goodness here, we got to say no to it. So with that said, that would be sort of one last little fire hose story that, you know, hardship benefit. That was, that was a tough note to say. But saying no is probably one of the most important pieces of doing business. Right? Marc Gutman 55:20 Absolutely. And Greg is we've come to a close here. I want you to think back to that. That little boy who loved bikes back in Chicago probably came down to this planet saying act back and back on the couch, back on the couch. And if he was looking back and he saw you today, what do you think he'd say? Greg Bagni 55:42 Well, he'd be looking forward, not backwards, right? That's right. He'd be yes. Correct. Yeah, he'd be looking forward. He'd say, dude, you have been one lucky mofo. That's what he would say. It's a I never thought you'd be doing what you're doing. So I still believe I'm super lucky. You know, just to turn it. Some of it being in the right place at the right time, some of it being prepared for the opportunity. But I've always, I've always over delivered. I've never been afraid to go the extra just the extra mile just it's the little shit sometimes. It's everything from the little stuff you do for your employees to making sure you hire the best drum roadie, you can find some when the drummer gets behind his kit. Everything is absolutely perfect in its right spot. And he can play and perform to the nth degree and then comes out the stage after the gig and says dude, man, I love PD. That was my the best drummer the ever had. I love PT that guy has got me down. That's over delivery. And I've always been into that man it's it's really cool when you can do it with product with people with the planet with community and and make some money while you're doing it. Dude, you got me all you may be go off today. And I'm not even drinking caffeine. Marc Gutman 57:17 And that is Greg bagni, founder of alien truth communications and partner at White road investments. Well, I'm glad Greg never became a dentist or an insurance salesman. No offense to you enamel and premium lovers out there. Because Greg was dropping brand and marketing bombs that entire conversation. And his enthusiasm is infectious. You know, the good kind of infectious, his seven words summation of how to succeed in brand and marketing his genius. solve my problem? Make me feel good. And I absolutely love his goodness metric. Can you imagine what the world would be like if we all were striving to increase a goodness metric? The big thank you to Greg bagni alien truth communications, white road investments in the aliens who have loaned Greg to this planet all these years. We will link to all things Greg bagged me in the show notes. And if you know the guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wildstory.com. Our best guests. Like Greg come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. A lot big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can't deny. ‍

BGBS 065 | Marlo Vernon | CarePenguin | You Just Have to Go For ItMarlo Vernon is a recent graduate from CU's Leeds School of Business and the CEO of CarePenguin, an IoT business created to aid in the care of older adults living independently. After doing time as an international model and squirrel caregiver, she found her true passion in entrepreneurship. As Marlo's father is her co-founder and CTO, Marlo has delighted in the fact that now the tables are turned, and she can finally order him around. In this episode, you'll learn…What it's like to build a business as a young, female entrepreneur It doesn't matter if you don't have all the answers yet. Have the confidence to go for it and learn as you grow. Have the resolve and confidence to prove your worth, even when others don't believe in your vision like you do ResourcesWebsite: carepenguin.com LinkedIn: Marlo Vernon Twitter: @marlovernon Instagram: marlo_vernon Facebook: Marlo Vernon Quotes[32:30] The hardest thing is I have no idea what I'm doing. But I feel like first-time entrepreneurs have no idea what they're doing. So I'm kind of just taking one obstacle at a time and trying to figure out, “Okay, what are we going to do here?” figure that out, get past it, and then move on to the next one. [34:23] A lot of young entrepreneurs that I know are kind of caught up in this startup buzz where they love to talk about starting a company but they kind of just go from pitch competition to pitch competition and they do accelerator after accelerator, and at some point, you just have to build your company. You just have to do it. [34:54] For women entrepreneurs, I would say just be confident and if you don't know everything, just go for it anyway. Podcast TranscriptMarlo Vernon 0:02 When I was at CU, the new venture challenge the big pitch competition. The year before I competed, my really good friend competed with a very similar product to mine. And he ended up winning the whole thing. And then I showed up with this product that I had been working on. I had tons of market research, I talked to 100 people in the space. I had people sign up to be beta testers. And I was met with like, a lot of criticism, and like skepticism, and I barely made it past the first round, and then didn't make it any further in the competition. And I just thought that was interesting that an engineer, that's a man won the whole competition and then the next year I show up with a product that's further along. And the only difference I can really spot is that I'm a woman. Marc Gutman 1:03 podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Back story. We're talking about hot water. IoT. That's Internet of Things, an aging parents. But before we get to that, I need you. If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. If you haven't reviewed, we have little IoT sensors, monitoring your podcasts and telling us who isn't reviewing. So get on it. Now let's get on with the show. Today's guest is Marlo Vernon international model. First time SAS founder and CEO Marlo Vernon is all those things. But currently, She is the founder and CEO of CarePenguin, the business she created while in college to aid in the care of older adults living independently as Marlowe's father is her co founder and CTO Marlo has delighted in the fact that now the tables are turned and she can finally order him around. Marlowe's journey is a little different than those we normally feature on Baby got backstory. But that's why I wanted her on the show. She's just getting started already crushing it. And there's a lot to learn from the next generation of entrepreneurs. And this is her story. All right, I am here with Marlo Vernon, the founder and CEO of CarePenguin Marlowe. Welcome. Marlo Vernon 3:15 Thank you. Thanks for having me. Marc Gutman 3:18 How does that sound when you hear someone in a radio voice say Marlo Vernon founder and CEO of CarePenguin. Marlo Vernon 3:29 I love it. It's music to my ears. It's really weird because my resume is like marketing intern marketing in turn CEO. So big, big difference there. Marc Gutman 3:41 Well, for those of you that can't think that it could happen over night, it certainly can. In Marlowe's case. So that's, that's pretty awesome. And so before we get into it, what is CarePenguin. Marlo Vernon 3:54 So CarePenguin is an IoT device and service that non invasively monitors the well being of older adults living independently by monitoring their activity through water use. So are we have a sensor that connects to the hot water pipe coming out of a water heater. And whenever someone turns on a faucet anywhere in the house, we can detect that activity. And then our app allows adult children or caregivers to look at the last time their loved one was active and check in without being invasive of their privacy and then they can receive alerts if there is a lack of activity. So it's a lot it's a lot less invasive than like cameras or motion sensors, that type of thing. Marc Gutman 4:44 Yeah, and I was looking on your website earlier today. And this whole concept actually blows my mind a bit because my father is getting older. He just moved to Colorado welcome bad. You know he's in his own apartment and stuff like that, but worry about him. And I know the traditional way is to have a wearable device or something like that, that perhaps you can either track or, or, or your loved one can can signal. But like, how in the world? Did you think of using water as the the measuring device or the metric because like, that just blows my mind that that that is the way that you're able to keep track of, of the customers that you're serving? Marlo Vernon 5:30 Yeah, so actually, I started this business with my dad. So a few years ago, we were kind of like tinkering around with IoT devices. And we came up with this sensor to just see if someone's home by measuring their water use, and it ended up working really well. And we, at the same time, my grandparents on both sides, were starting to get older, and starting to worry about them more. So we kind of thought, wow, this would actually be a really great way to see if my grandparents are okay. It seems to be like a great proxy for human behavior, because water, like hot water specifically is something that is only activated when someone takes an action. So we kind of came up with that. And then when I went to see you and took an entrepreneurship class, I started exploring this idea more. And the more I researched on, like this market and talking to my parents, my parents friends, this was like a huge problem. And so, and this seems like such a simple but comprehensive solution. So Marc Gutman 6:48 yeah, and let's let's get back to that water thing. Like why water? Like, what is it about water? What spoke to you about water? Did you try other things, in terms of attaching a sensor was it always about this idea of hot water, Marlo Vernon 7:01 it was kind of always about the idea of hot water, we we also have other ideas of like, refrigerator door lights, like sound sensors. But this seemed so simple. And it's only one sensor that detects activity throughout the entire house. So you'd spend five minutes attaching it to your water pipe. And then you can see activity in the kitchen and the bathrooms. And it's a lot easier than putting like motion sensors all over and like motion sensors, if you have like animals that will set it off. And water just seemed like a direct correlation between human activity and, and water. Marc Gutman 7:49 I'm so fascinated by that. Is anyone else doing that right now? Or is this unique to CarePenguin the way that you're approaching it. Marlo Vernon 7:56 So there are some other companies that are doing like flow meters, but they're, they're more in the market of catching leaks. And they're a lot more expensive. But what CarePenguin does actually is measure the temperature of the pipe so we don't measure flow of water. And that's part of what makes it so simple. And so, so much cheaper. No, you don't have to like mess with the plumbing or anything. You literally just attach it to the pipe. And then it takes the temperature of the pipe. And whenever someone uses water, the temperature of that pipe spikes way up indicating that someone's active. Marc Gutman 8:36 Yeah. And you'd mentioned something earlier about you're like, yeah, and my dad, we were just tinkering around, and we came up with this idea. So let's take a step back in time was young Marlowe, I mean, Was this something that you were always interested in? Were you always interested in the internet of things? Were you always interested in app development as a when you're when you were younger? Marlo Vernon 9:01 Um, when I was younger, I wanted to be a fashion designer. And then I quickly realized I didn't care about fashion. Um, but no, I grew up with my dad. He's a serial entrepreneur. So I grew up with him talking about business at the dinner table every single night. Were Marc Gutman 9:26 you into that? Were you into that? Or was that more of like, more of an IRA? Oh, here it goes, daddy. Marlo Vernon 9:32 No, I thought I thought was kind of interesting. And I like the idea of like running your own business. And my dad is big on culture at his businesses. So a lot of times he would talk about like all the fun things that were happening at work, and then also like the stressful things like raising money, so I kind of got to hear it all. And but it's kind of funny because one time we went to Disneyland and my dad was like, taking calls on Like the Big Thunder Mountain Railroad. So I was very used to him like always working and always talking about his business. And then when I got to high school, I started taking marketing classes. And I was always like really quiet in school. I never participated never have like, raised my hand or anything. But then once I started taking these business classes in high school, I realized I already like knew everything just from listening to my dad talk, as I was growing up, and I became super confident and like, spoke up. And yeah, I felt felt way more confident in those classes and felt like this was this is what I was meant to do. So that's kind of when I started realizing I wanted to be an entrepreneur. Marc Gutman 10:48 But that still wasn't your path. So right, you left, you got high school, and you still had dreams of being in that in that fashion industry to some degree, you want to talk about that a little bit. Marlo Vernon 11:02 Yeah. So at the same time, I was also modeling. I started modeling in Denver, when I was 15. Just kind of for fun. And then, when I was seven, seen, I signed a contract with a modeling agency in New York. And after I graduated from high school, I went to New York to model and my dad was not into that he, he basically said, You have one year to do this, and then you're going to college. And so I took it and it ended up being great, like that year was was really great. But then after a year, I was definitely ready to go to college. Marc Gutman 11:45 And so you came back and and having that experience of living in New York and coming back to college. What did you study in school, Marlo Vernon 11:55 I studied marketing at the Leeds School of Business at CU, Marc Gutman 11:58 and how'd you feel about that program? Marlo Vernon 12:01 It was great. I loved C, you loved the marketing program. They're all my professors were awesome. The only thing about it, though, was it's very, like every all the professors were like brand managers like Procter and Gamble, or something. And a lot of our classes were like, how to make the world's best toothbrush. And I was just like, I don't think I'm ever going to use this, I've always kind of been more into tech, like getting into tech. So my internships have kind of helped helped with that, learn more about marketing in the tech space, but I felt like C provided a really great foundation. And then I also got an entrepreneurship certificate at CU, which was also really great. I took about three entrepreneurship classes. So Marc Gutman 12:51 what's that I'm not familiar with the entrepreneurship certificate. How does that work? Marlo Vernon 12:55 Um, I think it's just you take three different classes like entrepreneurial environments, entrepreneurial finance, and then new venture creation. And that's, that's a I'm not really sure how that's different from mining and entrepreneurship or majoring in entrepreneurship. But that's what I did. Marc Gutman 13:14 Got it. And so you mentioned you came out, you had a few marketing internships, and you were checking out the business landscape, but your entrepreneurial father and you were tinkering with this idea. And so at what point did you take it from tinkering to actually making something with actually making something that was concrete and potentially a product and then a business? Yeah, so Marlo Vernon 13:40 in fall of 2019, I took this new venture creation class, and we had to kind of explore these business ideas and try to build this business as much as we could within the semester. And so I decided to work on this. It's something like my dad and I have always thought about but never really had the chance to explore more. So I picked it up and started working on it. And then during that time, I really did a ton of like, customer validation. So me and my team, we probably talked to about 100 people, about their elderly parents, how they care for them, like learned a lot about that kind of thing, older adults and their needs. And that's when I learned that like this was such a huge problem. And everyone seemed really excited about this idea. And then I pitched at the end of the semester and like won the the class pitch competition. What does Marc Gutman 14:46 that mean? Like Like when you win the class pitch competition like what what does that mean? Marlo Vernon 14:51 It only means you get an A and basically, we all worked on this. We all worked on ours. ideas. I think there were like five ideas or seven, I think there were seven teams. And mine was one of them. And at the end of the semester, they brought in, like, I don't know, like invest, not real investors, but I'm not really sure who they were. But we pitched to them. And then I ended up winning and got an A, but then I moved on. Cu has this big pitch competition in the spring called new the new venture challenge. And I think like, over 100 teams participate in this. And then the winner gets $100,000. And I didn't, I didn't make it past the second round. But then I ended up starting the company myself and raising the same amount of money anyways, that I would have won. So it all ended up working out for me. But, but anyways, um, yeah. So then after the new venture challenge, and everything and losing, I kind of was like mad, and I was like, I'm going to show them. So I. So I went full on when I graduated, and really started the company. And that's kind of when my dad joined. And at first he was like, oh, I'll just help you, like write the app for it. And then we it just grew and grew. And he got more invested. And it got more real. And we started improving on the hardware improving on the software. So it really became like a real thing last May when I graduated. Marc Gutman 16:40 And was at that time, did it have the name CarePenguin? Marlo Vernon 16:43 Yeah, yeah, I named it CarePenguin back back in November of 2019. And it was kind of funny, because I was trying to figure out a name for this project for my entrepreneurship class. And at the time, I didn't think I would turn it into like a real company. And so I was kind of like googling names. And like doing those, like company name generators and stuff online. And there's like this one website that gives you like, a name logo. And I was like, browsing one of those, and I saw CarePenguin. And I was like, Oh, I really like that. But it costs like 30 $300 like for the domain and for the logo. And I was like, well, this isn't like a real thing. So I just named it CarePenguin made my own logo. And then in May when we decided to, like, actually make this a real business, I had to like finally buy like the Caribbean Quinn calm for like 30 $300. Marc Gutman 17:50 That's a good way to do it. proof of concept before you invest in the domain. Marlo Vernon 17:54 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Marc Gutman 17:55 So you decided to start the business? And so I mean, what's it like working with your father, I don't talk to a lot of entrepreneurs that have that experience. I mean, talk a little bit about that. Marlo Vernon 18:07 Um, it's actually really great. I love working with my dad, he is the best mentor we live together. And, but it's kind of funny because he's like 57 years old. And he can learn how to write an iPhone app super easily and just whip out an iPhone app. But trying to get him to understand how to use like Google calendar is like such a struggle. So that's been pretty funny. Also, slack. I'm very proud that I got him on slack. Because when he was the CEO of Victor Ops, like he refused to slack he only used email. So that's been a big win for us. Marc Gutman 18:53 Yeah, well, you know, I do you know how to slack but I have to agree with him. Email is the killer app. Like why did we ever just move all our email into slack? Which is really just kind of like, weird email? Marlo Vernon 19:04 Yeah, no, I love slack. It's great. Marc Gutman 19:09 We use slack here too. So So I guess I gotta love it as well. A common question I get all the time is Mark, can you help me with our brand? Yes, we help companies solve branding problems. And the first step would be to schedule a no obligation brand clarity call, we'll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email, we'll get you booked right away. So whether you're just getting started with a new business, or whether you've done some work and need a refresh, or whether you're a brand that's high performing and wants to stay there, we can help. After you book your brand clarity call. You'll learn about our brand audit and strategy process. we'll identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh, will determine if your business has a branding problem. And you'll see examples of our work and get relevant case studies. We'll also see if branding is holding your business back, and can help you get to the next level. So what are you waiting for? Build the brand you've always dreamed of. Again, we'll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email. Now back to the show. So you started the business, you have a name, like what are those early days of the business look like? I mean, did you have any customers? Marlo Vernon 20:44 No, we had people that were willing to be beta testers. So we had, we had like, testers throughout the whole thing. So first, we had this dinky little prototype that we probably put in like five people's homes, just to make sure that the data was accurate. And a big misconception that we kept getting in the early days was that older adults don't use water. Like, we were getting this all the time, like, Oh, this wouldn't work for my parent, because they don't use water. And we were like, I don't think that's true. So we started putting these sensors in my parents, friend's parents houses. And everyone was surprised because they use way more water than they thought they use water like seven to 10 times a day. So it was actually really great. So that was something we had to overcome was, and we still get that question to this day of like, Oh, well, I'm not sure my parent uses water. So that's something we have to like, create, like marketing material on. But yeah, we had people that were willing to test. And then in the early days, it was kind of just about getting the sensor to a place that we could actually sell it. So we hired like a circuit board designer, industrial designer. And then we worked on the app and tried to get the app to a place that people could use it. And we literally just finished that. So yeah, very cool. Marc Gutman 22:23 And so what was the process? you'd mentioned that you went out new, raised, raised money? Had you ever done that before? What did that look like for you? Marlo Vernon 22:32 No, I've never done that. before. It was good. My, my dad has been guiding me through this entire thing. So he has like this, um, this presentation that he gives that TechStars called the how to start your startup. And so he was like, just look at that presentation and build your deck. So I use the template he had, I built a deck. And then we kind of refined it together. And then I'm super lucky to have his whole network. So he we kind of emailed like probably 25 of his friends, investor, friends, people just in the boulder startup scene and told them what we're working on. And if they wanted to invest in an angel round, like we would take a meeting with them. And then eight of them replied and said they'd like to hear me pitch and then all a ended up investing after hearing our pitch. So it ended up going really well. It was kind of funny, though, because I was sitting on like, these calls with my dad, and I'm pitching and he's kind of just sitting there watching me. And after we get off the call, he just like, makes fun of me and is like laughing at all these like stupid things I said. And, um, because I get to the end of the pitch and then instead of being like, Alright, like, are you in like, we'd love to have you invest? I'd kind of just be like, all right, so thank you and my dad's like, are you singing? Or are you trying to close a deal? And so I've, I've often felt like Bambi trying to like walk for the first time through these like investor calls and stuff. And I'm just amazed at how like, easily my dad can just like, talk to people. It sounds kind of silly, but Marc Gutman 24:36 Well, clearly you're doing something right because you had a all eight offered to invest. So so you're obviously pitching quite well. First time CEO, young in your business career. Yep. A woman in tech. Like, yeah, yeah. What's hard about that? You know, it doesn't you know, it seems like it may be fraught with pitfalls and challenges, like, what do you find hard about, about being a first time CEO and a woman in tech? Marlo Vernon 25:09 Yeah, I feel like, kind of before my dad got involved, like, when I tell people about my idea, they'd be like, oh, like, that's cute. But like, what jobs are you applying for are like, Oh, this is just a school project, right? And I was like, No, like, I'm truly working on this, like, as a company, and like, people just kind of, don't believe you or don't think you can do it. But then kind of once my dad got involved, people started taking me more seriously. And then also, when I was at See you, the new venture challenge the big pitch competition, I thought it was interesting, because the year before I competed, my really good friend competed with a very similar product to mine. And he ended up winning the whole thing, he won the 100 grand, and he is man and an engineer. And then I show up at the competition the next year. Everyone knows who he is. They give him tons of praise. And then I showed up with this product that I had been working on. I had tons of market research, I had talked to 100 people in the space, I had people sign up to be beta testers. And I was met with like, a lot of criticism, and like skepticism, and I barely made it past the first round. And Ben didn't make it any further in the competition. And I just thought that was interesting that an engineer, like that's a man, like won the whole competition. And then the next year, I show up with a product that's further along. And the only difference I can really spot is that I'm a woman majoring in marketing. So that was kind of I don't know, that's kind of interesting. Marc Gutman 27:06 Yeah. How's that make you feel? Marlo Vernon 27:08 It kind of sucks, especially since I had like the, like, all the research to prove that this was gonna be a great idea. And I had the prototype in my hands. So that kind of sucked. But also, these pitch competitions are kind of funny, because the judges they're bringing in, it's like, Jake from State Farm. It's like who you're pitching to, it seems they don't really understand SAS businesses anyway, I don't think like in one round, like, a girl making cookies beat me. And I was just like, Are you kidding me? But I think I think it's just because like they, they understand cookies, but they don't understand like a SaaS business. So I don't know what it is. But Marc Gutman 27:58 so like, what, what are your friends doing for work right now? I mean, are they all CEOs of tech companies, startup tech companies? Or what's going on? Like, what are they like? What do you think about your role? Marlo Vernon 28:09 My friends are awesome. They're killing it. One of my friends works at Goldman Sachs, one of my friends works at KPMG. She just passed her CPA exams. And then a couple more of my friends just nailed some jobs I and then a lot of my girlfriends are like super smart, super ambitious, working in like finance and accounting, which I have no passion for. But then I also have a group of friends who are like my startup friends. So we've been in like, and startup summer programs together. And we go out to drinks once a month. And we all talk about our startups. So that's really fun. We just had drinks actually last Friday, but they're all they're all guys. I'm the only girl in all of my entrepreneurship classes in all my entrepreneurship, like summer programs, is very interesting. I'm not sure why there's not more girls. Marc Gutman 29:16 Yeah. You don't have any thoughts as to why there's not more women in those programs. Marlo Vernon 29:22 I don't. Yeah, I don't know. I think I think men are cockier and they're like very confident. And like their idea and their eye and their ability and I think women are a little like not as much like that. I don't know but I just I just wish they were Marc Gutman 29:44 well, maybe maybe after CarePenguin that's your next your next ambition is you can work on getting more women into these these types of programs. And so so yeah, where is chair penguin today, as far as you guys have customer is are you actively selling the product? Marlo Vernon 30:03 Yes, we are actively selling we just released the product to paying customers a week and a half ago. So, yes, that has it's been fun to watch the customers roll in. I think we have about 10 right now. And then we have about 15 active beta testers. So it's going great. I'm nervous because I'm the whole tech support team right now. So I'm the head of marketing, head of tech support raiser of money. So I got a lot going on right now. Marc Gutman 30:38 But I was just about to ask you that. What does a typical day in the life of CEO Marlo Vernon look like? But you kind of just shared it? Is there anything else that you're working on? Or what a typical day looks like for you? Marlo Vernon 30:51 Yeah, it's pretty much answer emails from customers or beta testers check in. And then probably like, post a blog post on social media, have a meeting with my co founders about like, what's going on. And then at the end of the day, when the customers roll in, I take a bunch of CarePenguin boxes to the post office and mail them. So that's a typical day for me. Marc Gutman 31:21 And what's the future look like? for CarePenguin? Where do you hope to be in what's that look like for you. Marlo Vernon 31:27 Um, so our goal is to be like the platform for elderly home care. And right now, we just have this sensor for water use, but we want to expand into a whole suite of sensors. So like, I don't know, a sensor for your refrigerator door, or a sound sensor, or there's already kind of a lot of things like that out there, like refrigerators now connect to Wi Fi, like we have a crock pot that connects to Wi Fi. I'm not sure if anyone needs that. But we really want to do this sensor fusion thing where we take all of these bits of data from different devices in the house, to get a better picture of someone's health and activity living alone. And kind of be like the platform for that. So that is our goal. Marc Gutman 32:22 And what's the hardest thing for you right now as the CEO is you're trying to build this company and steer the ship. Marlo Vernon 32:30 Yeah, the hardest thing is, I have no idea what I'm doing. Um, but I feel like most entrepreneurs, like first time entrepreneurs have no idea what they're doing. So I'm kind of just taking one obstacle at a time and trying to figure out, Okay, what are we going to do here, figure that out, get past it, and then move on to the next one. Right now, we're wondering how we're going to market our product to everyone, and we'd love to get on Shark Tank, that would be our that would be our goal. But I also don't think I can handle the tech support for 100,000 orders if we got on Shark Tank. So we're trying to, we're trying to figure all of that out and raise money and decide what the what the next step is there. So yeah, we're trying to we're trying to figure all of that out right now. Marc Gutman 33:28 All right, is you think about where you've come so far, in your journey? Do you have any advice that you would give to other up and coming entrepreneurs, especially maybe female entrepreneurs who are trying to find their way? Marlo Vernon 33:44 Yeah, I would say, definitely, like, do a lot of research on your industry. Like, I feel like I'm kind of an expert of like, elderly care now, which I never thought I'd be. And like, all the companies in this space, and as well as like IoT companies, and because I think a big problem with being so young is people people doubt you, but if they ask you questions, and you, you seem to be an expert on it, then that that's really good for you. Um, another piece of advice I'd give is, I feel like a lot of young entrepreneurs like that I know are kind of caught up in like this startup buzz where they love to talk about starting a company but like building a company like not so much as they kind of just like go from pitch competition to pitch competition, and they do accelerator after accelerator, and it's kind of like at some point, you just have to like, build your company. You just have to do it. And then for women entrepreneurs, I would say just just be confident and like if you don't know it, Everything, just just go for it anyways, because I heard this like fact that when men are applying for jobs, if they don't meet, like every requirement, they still apply. And when women are applying for jobs, if they look at it and they don't meet every requirement, then they don't apply. So I think you should just like have confidence in yourself know that you can do it and just just go for it. Marc Gutman 35:28 Fantastic. Where can people find out more and learn more about CarePenguin? Marlo Vernon 35:33 they can go to CarePenguin.com and learn more. They're on our websites. And it's available to purchase now. So if you think you'd benefit from it, you can buy a monthly or an annual subscription. Marc Gutman 35:49 Perfect. Marlo, thank you so much for coming on the show enjoyed our conversation. Marlo Vernon 35:55 Yes. Thank you so much for having me. It was awesome. Marc Gutman 36:03 And that is Marlo Vernon. Wow, I am so impressed with Marlowe's drive, and leadership, but also her view on what it takes to be successful. She knows that building businesses is hard that sometimes it's not fun. But that's what building a business is all about. I have no doubt that Marlowe and Kara penguin are going to achieve great things. We'll make sure to keep you updated with their progress. Side note, Marlowe's father, the one she talks about throughout the episode. Not that there are other fathers, you know what I mean? was one of the co founders what I like to call my first real job, a company outside of Boulder called rain dance. Marlowe mentions culture and how important it is to him and all I can say is that company attracted and introduced me to some of the most incredible people in my life. If you're a rain dance alum, you know what I mean? There was just something special in that culture there. Since then, her father Todd has gone on to start and exit from multiple companies. And there's no question where Marlo gets her entrepreneurial influence from the big thank you to Marlo Vernon and the team at Kara penguin. you're well on your way. And dad if you're listening my dad, we need to get you a CarePenguin sensor. We will link to all things Marlo and CarePenguin in the show notes. If you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line the podcast at wildstory.com our best guests like Marlowe come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS see you'll never miss an episode. A lot of big stories and I cannot lie. you other storytellers can't deny. ‍

Brent Weaver leads the vision for UGURUS and creates educational programs that help agency owners work on their business to drive additional revenues, increase profits, and create freedom in their life. He built his first website at 15, and created his first web-design business at 17. That company grew into a successful, 14-person web agency that was acquired in 2012. Brent has helped thousands of other web professionals master business skills and has made more than $10mm as an entrepreneur. He published the best-selling book, Get Rich In The Deep End, in 2020. Brent is interviewed by his good friend, fellow entrepreneur Marc Gutman.

BGBS 064 | Bill Creelman | Spindrift |You Have to Be a Little Hardheaded Bill Creelman is the Founder and CEO of Spindrift Beverage Co., Inc. and serves as its Chief Executive Officer. Prior to Spindrift, Bill co-founded Stirrings which sold to Diageo in 2009. Bill grew up on a farm in Western Massachusetts where all the food was unprocessed, seasonal, and fresh. In 2010, he began making his own sparkling beverages to help him kick his soda habit. He wanted something refreshing, with real ingredients he could pronounce and enjoy with his young family. After much trial and error, he achieved this by combining 2 simple ingredients: fresh fruit and triple-filtered sparkling water. He named it Spindrift. Today, Spindrift is made up of over 100 passionate employees dedicated to changing the sparkling beverage industry. Spindrift is leading beverages into a new age of innovation, transparency, and ingredient simplicity by offering a product with no artificial sweeteners, no natural flavorings, and no essences – just sparkling water and real squeezed fruit. Spindrift was named to Inc. Magazine's 500 fasting growing companies, is a two-time recipient of BevNet's Product of the Year and was featured on NPR's How I Built This in 2020. Bill lives outside of Boston with his wife, Harley, and 4 kids. In this episode, you'll learn… Follow what feels right in the moment and push through the challenge. It might just lead you to your dreams. Tips that can make you stand out in a business, like utilizing consumer input as guidance and taking advantage of your packaging as your initial communication point with a consumer The bruises and scars you gain from challenge will become valuable knowledge in the future Resources LinkedIn: Bill Creelman Website: drinkspindrift.com Twitter: @drinkspindrift Instagram: @drinkspindrift TikTok: @drinkspindrift Facebook: @drinkspindrift Pinterest: Spindrift Sparkling Water Quotes [19:53] I just get so much pleasure personally out of working with farmers that are working with their hands and growing something that's delicious, and then we get the opportunity to reimagine it as a sparkling water. There's something about that idea that's really exciting to me. [32:54] I think in a sense, you have to be a little bit hard headed to this business…challenges, just broadly speaking, are an everyday part of what we do. [52:38] (Packaging) is really is the main way you communicate with a consumer, especially early on. You have to have a package that has cuts through the clutter. That immediately speaks to someone that has a shopping cart that's small, and a kid is screaming, and they're on their cell phone, like even in that environment, it needs to speak to them somehow. [59:31] I really think that even though it was a longer journey for me I'm sure than other folks who have done it more efficiently, I think those nicks and bruises and scars along the way ended up being so valuable now to help inform decisions and keep the boat rowing in the right direction. Have a brand problem? We can help. Book your no-obligation, Wildstory Brand Clarity Call now. Learn about our Brand Audit and Strategy process Identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh Determine if your business has a branding problem See examples of our work and get relevant case studies See if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level Book Your Brand Clarity Call TODAY Podcast Transcript Bill Creelman 0:02 I think I was 15 or so and one of the captains I was working with, I was the maid on the on the boat. Their charter fishing boat, told me about this word called spindrift. And it was you know, the weight we are getting pounded by surf coming back from grade point out of the car are headed to the island. And it was a beautiful sunny day, but we were soaking wet and he said, you know what this mist is that is blowing off of the top of these waves. And I didn't get called spindrift and it's referring to sort of the whitewash and the wave is as the wind blows, and it's sheared the top of the wave off it for some reason. I just thought that word was really interesting. Marc Gutman 0:50 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Back story. We are talking about sparkling water. Not just any sparkling water, but flavored sparkling water. And hey, you, yeah, you the listener who's a non reviewer, I know who you are. And seriously, what gives? You know that this podcast ain't cheap. But we continue to produce it as a service to you. How about you turn that non reviewer frown upside down and rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts and reviewing is cool. Everyone's doing it. Alright, let's get on with the show. Hear that? Cold, refreshing, sparkling water. Now today we have sparkling water easily accessible at our fingertips. We have all sorts of brands that are producing it non flavored flavored we have spiked sparkling water. We have all sorts of seltzers. But if you think about it, it wasn't always that way. sparkling water is kind of a new thing. And today's guest is Bill Creelman, the founder and CEO of spindrift. Yeah, spindrift that delicious Lee flavored sparkling water with real fruit juice. And he's your hero on today's show. Bill is an entrepreneur and his journey has been anything but straight and easy. Today, spindrift is made up of over 100 passionate employees dedicated to changing the sparkling beverage industry. spindrift is leading beverages into a new age of innovation, transparency and ingredient simplicity by offering a product with no artificial sweeteners, no natural flavorings and no essences. Just sparkling water and real squeezed fruit. spindrift was named Inc magazine's 500 fastest growing companies is a two time recipient of bednets Product of the Year and was featured on one of my favorite podcast the one that this baby got backstory. Whole podcast was based on NPR. Here's how I built this in 2020. Bill lives outside of Boston with his wife, Harley and four kids in this is his story. I'm here with Bill Creelman, the founder and CEO of spindrift bill, welcome. Bill Creelman 4:11 Thanks, Marc. Appreciate the time. Marc Gutman 4:14 Absolutely. And before we get into it, we're going to hear all about Spindrift and how you founded the company. But for those listeners that may not be familiar with this delicious flavored sparkling water, why don't you set it up a little bit and tell people what is Spindrift? Bill Creelman 4:31 So we are we are the alternative challenger brand in a very big category called sparkling water. So, our point of difference, you know, among kind of a big, crowded categories, we offer real ingredients as the base for the flavors so, we go out and gather lemons, oranges, grapefruits, berries, from around the country and literally squeeze them and add them to sparkling water instead of using unnatural flavor, which is really where the category lives today. And the results of this sort of delicious you know, pretty full flavored a little pulpy, colorful alternative to sparkling water. Marc Gutman 5:15 And I don't want to get too far down this part of the story, but you said something that really caught my attention. And you said that we put real food and ingredients in the water because that's so rare. Is that something that is just not happening prior to Spindrift? Bill Creelman 5:32 It really is like, strictly from an ingredient perspective. It does not exist other than our brands. So you know, it, it seems like, it's almost an absurd statement to make, like, how could that be true? So yeah, the category is really developed off of the back of the natural flavors, natural flavors, we don't really know quite what these things are, there are 3000 ingredients that are regulated outside of the FDA, they could originate with a fruit they may not, you know, you really don't know as a consumer. So we just kind of left that conversation, where it was and, and went with a product that we recognize, you know, fruit has color and has a little pub. And that's where we're kind of happy. You know, and that's really our big point of difference in this space. Marc Gutman 6:25 I'm sure we'll get into this further. But it just blows my mind that this is something that we're not all already experiencing or hadn't experienced prior to Spindrift. And so we'll talk about that. But as you know, you were a young kid. And as you were, you know, getting going probably around the ripe age of nine or something like that, did you think that you would be in the sparkling beverage category, as it were, was that something you had always dreamed of? Bill Creelman 6:53 I not specifically that. I mean, I I was I was lucky enough to be exposed to food. at a really young age, both kind of where food came from i was i was grew up in a farming environment at Western Massachusetts. And then I was lucky enough to also go out to the Cayman Islands, to to where I got to see, you know, fish and lobsters and oysters, so, and then I just, I love food. I had a little kid, I was always the one that ordered the weird thing on the menu that no one else wanted to try. So I think this is a story of like, just really being lucky enough to take something I enjoy doing on the weekends and turn it into, into into a job during the week. And so Marc Gutman 7:43 When you were that age, and did you grow up on a working farm, or do you have…? Bill Creelman 7:47 No, it was just like a 30 acre farm, Leicester mass that was had a garden and we had a bunch of animals. So it was not Yeah, we did not do any commercial farming. But, you know, we grew a lot of stuff. And that was sort of the mentality of the town. That actually still is, you know, kind of that way out there. And that had a big impact on me for sure. I mean, you know, we, we, we definitely, I feel like I took some of that sensibility with with me. Marc Gutman 8:17 So it was that your dream as a kid? Were you? Did you want to be a chef or involved in food? Or was there something else that was catching your attention at that point? Bill Creelman 8:26 Yeah, I think I mean, the great thing about food and why, if you go to like a Food Show, you'll see lots of people with family recipes, that it's incredibly stressful. And it's fun, you know, generally you're making something sharing it with, with friends. And so I think all of that is interesting to me. And it really still is interesting, you know, I love what I love the design side of this space, I love the recipe development side. You know, the selling of it is really interesting to me like just to propose something to to a retailer or a restaurant that they may not have tried. So it's not a whole bunch of things I would say for me, and I knew I was interested in definitely doing something on my own. I was not my dad worked in, in kind of big CBD or for small sports, kind of Western Mass for a number of years. And he really was kind of pushed me to try to do something on my own. And, and so that that was nice to have that sort of backing throughout. Marc Gutman 9:36 That's interesting. Why did your dad push you to? You know, based on his experience, why did he think hey, it'd be way better if bill were doing something on his own versus working at Spalding after me. Bill Creelman 9:47 Yeah. You know, I think he loved it. I know he loved his time there. I think it had to do with some of the macro climate he was seeing just Recognizing the big brands, the idea, he went to college and work for a big brand that everyone knew that idea was starting to fade away, I think he, he himself was introduced to some entrepreneurs, young people that had started things, and to see their excitement, and it wasn't an excitement that he necessarily thought existed in kind of a bigger, more established business. And, you know, I guess, for all those reasons, he was just say he and my mom were both, like, incredibly supportive. I mean, literally, even some of the failed businesses early on. So, yeah, I think that I mean, that is that is so important, you know, because it's, I know, it's not always the case, you know, there's often pressure to go do something more conventional. And I didn't have any of that, you know, as far as they were concerned, we could kind of do whatever we wanted. And that, you know, if you made money, or if you, you know, you obviously needed to support your family and sort of remain buoyant, but there was no pressure to do anything conventional to call it. Marc Gutman 11:10 Yeah. And so when I was that the narrative and the message as you were going through high school, and if so, what was your play? What was your plan for after high school? Did you go to college? Or were you like, I'm going to go start a business right away? Bill Creelman 11:21 So I jumped in with both feet pretty early. I mean, I started tinkering around with sort of starting my own thing, if you want to call it Pat, from, you know, super early, so you know, we we've worked a food stand at a craft fair. And in our town starting at, you know, eight 910. We tried to, you know, we started handing out business cards to just sort of do odd jobs, like early teens, and, and then tried to start like a little sort of painting business, in high school. And then eventually, I got into the fishing business, I was amazed. And I got my captain's license to run my own boat when I was, you know, kind of 20 or 21. It just like, you know, silly, silly ideas along the way that, that were fun and interesting, all centered around food, usually food or drinks for. So I don't know, I don't, I had done enough. By the time I got to college that I knew that it was interesting to me. And there was absolutely no history of success at all. At this point. It was much more defined by failure, for sure, but it was really fun and challenging. And that's not really I think, was what I was excited about continuing. After, after, after school. Marc Gutman 12:55 Yeah. And you had mentioned, as you were talking about some of those businesses, you said we who were you building those businesses with? Bill Creelman 13:04 Well, I either friends or my brother, who also was interested in this sort of stuff. So the painting business, he was trying to eat a couple years older, and he was trying to get off the ground. And so I kind of tagged along, you know, yeah, yeah, a little like, an 18 hole golf, you know, shack through jack that he was running with a friend and I jumped in on that. I mean, it was it, we were just always conspiring to try to figure out sort of ways to do fun foods, things that I've done, not always food, but just businesses, with the idea that wouldn't it be interesting if this idea that we have was also appealing to other people besides us? And that was, that was really the level of complexity that in lead that Marc Gutman 13:57 For sure, for sure. And even that, to me is a little bit interesting, because as we know, really one of the keys to successful businesses solving a problem that people have, but I remember that when I was young and starting business, I didn't care about problems. You know, like, that was my problem. My problem was I wanted some money, or I wanted a business. I wanted to do something cool. So was there some of that in there where you really you had at that age, like seeing some like, Oh, wait, there's a gap here and I'm gonna solve it. Bill Creelman 14:24 Yeah, definitely not at that level of sophistication. No, really, more was like, I want to, you know, I need to have any money in order to fuel my car and maybe live on you know, independently, you know, we get I started living on our own I think I was 15 when I started limping away in the summers and he was 17. And so you know, all of that takes place resources and, and there was just there was a very brightly lit line between You know, the need to find all of this, and then, you know having to be, kind of come up with a solve on your own, you know, there wasn't, there was never this thought that someone else was gonna swoop in and fund it on our behalf. And so that's, that's, you know, that's really where a lot of that, that thinking started. Marc Gutman 15:24 And so maybe I missed it I apologize if you said this, did you end up from there going to school? Or did you get right into? Bill Creelman 15:32 No, I didn't know I went, I went to high school in western Massachusetts. And then I went to college in Washington DC. And literally the day after I graduated from Georgetown, I turned my captain's test and went out and began trying to get a captain's got my cat's license began running running a boat. But but but what actually an important part of sort of chapter in this was while I was at Georgetown, I took an entrepreneurship class. This was why an entrepreneurship really was not part of any university to speak of, or at least, it wasn't something that was on my radar, to Georgetown had had a kind of program that they offered is just kind of a one class program you could opt into, and the the only assignment for the class was to write a business plan. And you you, you work the entire semester handed in, and whatever your grade was on that, on that paper was your grade for the semester, and that that was an incredible, really neat moment for me, because I hadn't realized that you could, you know, organize yourself that way around, you know, writing down an idea and putting the structure to aid and then building a p&l in and building a team and then margin and all the things that, you know, normal business could have, prior to that it was just more, you know, kind of, you know, yellow legal pad and sort of working as we want and hoping for the best. So it was actually it was that that idea for my business plan was Nantucket. vocalists there was a it was a it was, it was really the idea of using snow foods from from Nantucket Island and offering it around to consumers who couldn't get a permit to Nantucket, it's to be hard to get to, you know, in the offseason and, and that that was not an idea I pursued but it was the foundation of my first business that was called Nantucket harvest. And that that was really where that was when I formalized and created analyse and got a business partner. And it really went into the food business formally for the first time. Marc Gutman 17:51 And then that's making the connection why you then went and got your captain's license. And, and yeah, during that chapter, and that's like crazy to me, by the way, like, like what, you know, I when I was in college, I certainly wasn't thinking like, what kind of fancy foods do people want? Or, you know, or like, how do I bring like food to me, that was just not the way I was thinking. And so I'm super, like, impressed and just amazed that this was at the front of your, the front of your thought and your insight, but also like, how did you think that you could do this? Bill Creelman 18:26 I think it was just sort of foolish competence, honestly, because ultimately the business was was not all that successful. Hey, it was it was super exciting and fun. And we eventually turned that business into a different business that was successful. But I was I think I just didn't know enough to realize that I was about to take on a bunch of risks and challenges that we ultimately had. But honestly, like that same energy that I mentioned earlier, I had a pet a dog, I just loved working with the business. The idea of the business was after the smokehouse and harvest became working with local purveyors from from the island of Nantucket. But even more broadly, we brought in other islands, the arches vineyard and then Cape Cod. And we just loved working with these incredible products, you know, smokers propane and scallops and a local an ice cream manufacturer and, and, and so, honestly, even if we weren't trying to figure out how to make it into a business, I just the idea of working with them was what was really interesting and that I think that is there's a thread between Nantucket harvest and Spindrift. It's it's still that same way like you know, I just get so much pleasure personally out of working with you know, farmers They're working with their hands and growing something that's delicious and, and then we get the opportunity to re reimagine it as a sparkling water. Like, you know that that's just, there's something about that idea. That's really exciting to me. And it's, you know, and and so that was a harvest was the first time I got to really experience that. Marc Gutman 20:20 And so what happened with Nantucket harvest? Like, why did that not take off what was hard about it? Bill Creelman 20:25 So this is right when the internet was starting not to date myself, but it actually worked really well for sort of two months of the year. So October, November, into the beginning part of December, people were buying holiday, thanksgiving and holiday food items to give us gifts or for themselves. The problem was 10 months of the year, when people just in general, and I'd say this is even true somewhat today, like they just don't purchase those types of products that way around. And so there's some people that have cracked that, you know, Harry David has done a great job and there are others, he didn't have the courage to sort of so. So we just, we would do really well for the holidays. And then in a business spread sort of tail off that the good part about it, though, was we were learning like crazy. And we were meeting all these interesting people and one of the people we ended up putting into our harvest sort of a storm and had a really successful wholesale business, he was making dry rubs, grilling, without the salt and sugar really kind of a progressive product for its time called the anti offshore seasonings and that offshore is what we shortened it to and he became our business partner. So we sort of supplemented our revenue and and spread out some of our her risk and build some efficiencies by adding his product to our to our assortment and offered a year round. And that's where we first began working with Whole Foods and and we can sit down on a number of other retailers that have become you know, great relationships for us. Long term. Marc Gutman 22:15 So then what what became of that business so you're you're you've got as it's working out for you and the seasonality of the fishing business and bringing those those purveyors together. And then it sounds like the Nantucket offshore the seasoning business that's really propping things up. But but maybe, maybe, maybe maybe not as much as I interpret it. But like so what, what happens with that with that business. Bill Creelman 22:38 So as I as I feel like the theme on your show, and just in what I've experienced in my career, you end up at the decision point, it's stuck, you know, somewhere, you can't do everything well, and now we have a name for we call it simplified amplify. So we we eventually got to a point where we couldn't operate both successively, and eventually just stopped producing Nantucket, harvest catalogs and sort of, you know, purchasing those wares, and focus our time entirely on Antarctica offshore. The other thing that happened that we had missed is, you know, apart, lock in, and I think but also part that we were well positioned is we came out with a line of cocktail products, it was basically an add on to the crust, the rubs, for grilling, we added rimming sugars, so the sugars that go around the rim of a cocktail glass, but it was just as cocktails are starting to become popular again in the early 2000s. So they sort of Carrie Bradshaw Sex in the City like cosmos, you know, that that time in our lives, and suddenly cocktails were everywhere. And it was also at the same time to premium spirits are starting to become popular in the US. This is, you know, the advent of kind of great use and Chopin is had a one and absolute and all of these great really high quality spirits did not have a mixer to go with them. He was so all of us interested in cocktails great liquor products, but no mixers and so we we ended up chasing what was started as just to rimming sugar became a whole line of cocktail products called stirrings and stirring this was was really for, you know, four or five years was really kind of whatever this third generation of Nantucket harvests and we really put a lot of time and energy into and we ultimately sold that business to diazo. You know, cut In the mid 2000s, Marc Gutman 25:02 Well, I love that you forever have like, made me think of that time in history as the Sex in the City Cosmo. But the and we'll talk about that eggs in just a second. I'm assuming it was a good one. But kind of back to that, that decision point where the why in the road and you had a dream? You know, and you're, you know, you've put a lot of energy into it your fishing boat captain? And was that a hard decision to make to split off and let and talk at harvest go? Bill Creelman 25:30 It really was I think, you know, later on in my life. The other institutions I think are are clear at that time it was it was really driven by two things. One is we were we were heavily leveraged financially, I mean, I had not really drawn a salary in 10 years, any kind of anything meaningful was sort of living off of my, my wife's salary and huge amounts of debt, we had had a number of manufacturing issues. So I would love to say it was like a choice that it was much more of a survival mode, like how do we how do we all keep this going to live to tell. And really, when you looked at a very kind of unbiased view of the p&l of these different businesses, it became pretty clear that the most sensible, reliable choice was going to be in this whole sales, in essence decisions specifically, you know, continuing to focus on on the cocktail products. I think, you know, you, I guess what I would say is like, you make those decisions, in part because you think they're the right decisions for the business, but the consumer also makes those decisions ultimately, for you. And two cocktail products were purchased, really, outperforming anything else we were doing, we had people calling left and right retailers and consumers saying like, Hey, we, we think this is really neat, would you you know, would you be willing to sell them? Here, there and really, so the consumer spoke I think loudest, and then the business, you know, from a very cold and calculated point of view, you know, the the sort of, we knew enough by them to say, we want to be in a business that's less risky and more predictable. Then Then the other business models that we're playing around with at the time. Marc Gutman 27:35 Yeah and I can imagine you said was 10 years, you mentioned that, you know, you're pretty much living off your, your wife's income from her job. I mean, let's talk about that for a second, which she said she liked, you know, go bill go or she like, when are you going to, like, stop chasing this fishing thing? Bill Creelman 27:52 That's actually a much more interesting interview than this interview. No, she, her point of view is crazy. Really. And, and probably not certainly represented. I mean, you know, this was pretty compelling entrepreneurs, I know that it's true for all partners. But it was exhausting, frankly, I mean, just, you know, to have constantly be running out of money constantly, you know, sort of setting a timeline, and then not meeting it for whatever, you know, they won't and next year thing, you know, things will be easier or less challenge. less challenging. You know, that's, that is, that is not a fun way to spend your 20s and early 30s. And so, I mean, you know, I don't know if this is oversharing. But you know, I remember when I when I purchased her wedding ring, you know, I had to purchase it on a credit card, I think it was sort of like 40% interest rate, because my credit was so horrible. So, you know, what, when we were eventually married and began sort of sharing finances, she she got to see the bills coming in at a 40%. Essentially, what, what, who would ever sign up for this? And it was, you know, so the, I think, I think it was it was really hard. And, you know, I am I'm incredibly grateful. You know, I think part of it was fun and exciting and interesting and different. But, you know, at the very core of me, you have to have someone that's willing to go on that journey with you. I mean, there's just, it is not for everyone to have that amount of it's really the uncertainty. I think it's so hard, just not really knowing on a day to day basis for planning purposes and, you know, life planning, financial planning, you know, family plan, like you just you really, really are not ever totally Sure, you know, we know what will happen next. And so, yeah, I'm incredibly lucky and grateful. And that's Marc Gutman 30:17 A common question I get all the time is Marc, can you help me with our brand? Yes, we help companies solve branding problems. And the first step would be to schedule a no obligation brand clarity call, we'll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email, we'll get you booked right away. So whether you're just getting started with a new business, or whether you've done some work and need a refresh, or whether you're a brand that's high performing, and wants to stay there, we can help. After you book, your brand clarity call, you'll learn about our brand audit and strategy process, we'll identify if you need a new logo, or just a refresh, will determine if your business has a branding problem. And you'll see examples of our work and get relevant case studies. We'll also see if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level. So what are you waiting for, build the brand you've always dreamed of. Again, we'll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email. Now back to the show. So why didn't you quit? You know, prior to that, that sale to DOJ or like why like, like 10 years of like uncertainty not knowing, like, grind in and out, like, why didn't you quit? Bill Creelman 31:43 We had seen. So when we started years, I don't know, let's do five or six years in, as we made this decision to pivot to cocktails, and move away from the male or business and move away from the rubs in focus just from cocktails, I think there was enough now, there that we felt we had to kind of see it through to the end. I mean, ultimately, we were sort of proven right and wrong to a certain extent. I mean, cocktails were very popular for a period of time. And then actually, in the late 2000s, when the economy turned it actually kind of went the other way. And so it was a great lesson, just in our business where food and trends around what people like for a while and then don't like, you know, that is that is that is a something we are very acutely aware of and are constantly metod, you know, kind of mindful of, but I think I just said to your question more directly, like I think it was, we felt there was enough there. And I think I think in a sense, you have to be a little bit hard headed to this business. There's there's going to be reasons, you know, daily that, you know, this does not make any sense or you hear no are not interested or, you know, sorry, is not the right time. I mean, that's all you hear her for the early stage of these businesses, from retailers, from, from bankers, from lenders from, you know, investors. So, like challenges, just broadly speaking, are an everyday part of what we do. And so it didn't feel insurmountable to continue to power through, we ended up you know, we ended up getting approached in it kind of as an investor not to purchase a business with this with a liquor company and that diazo and so that that also helped us believe like, okay, we're not the only one to think this is an interesting idea. There actually are other people that see this is the same opportunity. And so that certainly was a brief some energy into the room too. Marc Gutman 34:10 Was that you know, sale to diazo was that like a huge win, like, were you like, Oh my gosh, like, Bill Creelman 34:17 Yeah, no, it wasn't I mean, it's funny. I so, so no, the economy definitely impacted that outcome. And, and model is fine, you know, and exciting to have gone through that. I think it was actually, you know, when you sell these businesses and sell from very hard, you know, your your team ends up sort of going in different directions and you develop such relationship with these brands, they start to become part of you. And you know, I I knew that and I'm even you know, we talked about it just always as a business that you really want to be part of the startups for the product. For the journey, because when you actually get to the experts, you know, it's usually a law firm at two in the morning on a Tuesday and no one. Not even quite sure. Did you close? Did you not know what happened? Now? What do we do? And it's, it's really challenging, usually. And so, so yeah, in terms of it was, it was it was important to do it, and we're grateful to them. And you know, but I'd say, looking back on it now with the benefit of, you know, I think it was much more about the learning things and, and making sure that it needs to be move forward that there were, you know, that we, we built the business in a way that was an evolved version of that experience. Marc Gutman 35:54 So after that, kind of weird, awkward Tuesday, and they told you, you may or may not have closed, and, you know, would you do, like, Well, you know, you had been investing sounds like close to 10 years of your life into something every day. And then what? Bill Creelman 36:14 Yeah, so we, I, I actually, I was interested in the sparkline space for, kind of, towards the end of my time and started and we had a line of trade URLs and tonic waters that we had come out with. And, and we've seen some kind of anecdotal evidence that that was an area that was interesting and exciting to consumers, we didn't really pursue it all that much. But it was a learning and then I imagined in my mind that I was gonna have this nice long break and clear my head and then really start thinking about it. And I think actually in a good way, I ended up jumping in and, and kind of starting almost right away thinking about sort of in and in part two was a subject that Tiago is actually bringing up a fair amount, you know, they, for the liquor brand they miss, I think it's something like seven out of 10 drinks are made with a mixer. So they were thinking about soda and soda going away, which is really a lot of the narrative at the ended 2000s and concerns around sugar and health and what will happen if there's no more shimmer of soda. And I kind of jumped into that, and out of the big guy coaching her, because I mentioned I grown up, you know, on a farm in western Massachusetts, and was really interested in food, you know, I was like cooking a lot and, and really realizing more than ever, like, interested in health and wellness and ingredients and how ingredients are processed or not processed. I'd also spent some time living abroad at that point. So with the partnership with the audio, I spent two years of London and the Europe they were actually quite far ahead in terms of unprocessed ingredients. So you know, things that we think about pasteurized cheeses, or unpasteurized or milk pasteurized or not pasteurized. My experience in Europe was that a lot of the things that we really process in the US are significantly less processed over the UK and in Europe generally. So I came back with all of that and started looking at the sparkling space and, and really, I would say like, almost right away, within a month or two realize that is a huge category of sparkling beverages. There were there were really no products that met anything close to the standard of kind of real or unprocessed or that that I was now used to, you know, you see eating, cooking with and that, you know, that's that's a really fun moment when you kind of realize that because I had enough information about the packaged food world by them to know you know how to do it or some of it anyway. And in here you had a category that's enormous and sparkling beverages. And so I didn't then take any time off. I jumped in with both feet and almost like within a month or two of working, finishing my commitment, Stirling's I became working on spinner full time just myself. Marc Gutman 39:46 Yeah, and so let's kind of like reset the stage here a little bit because I think that everyone listening to this has gone through this. Call it sparkling or seltzer revolution, right, like now having flavored water of some sort sparkling water. Now we have alcoholic seltzers. But really that's exploded in the last like, I don't know, this is called five years or something like that. Prior to that this stuff wasn't really on anybody's radar. So like, what did this look like? What did the sparkling category look like to you? And what was this like, insight where you're like, Hello? Bill Creelman 40:31 It was, you that is a perfect way to paint that picture. Because it wasn't on anyone's radar, including ours, honestly. I mean, we, while we jumped into it was both seed starting kind of back end of 2009. And I see we meaning myself, and then thinking about it with, you know, sort of liquid a sort of the liquid kind of development, you know, ingredients, folks that I started to work with, there was no obvious path. In fact, I think the most popular opinion was that sparkling beverages, were going to go away that you were going to have just left the assumption, just because so divided, I was really starting to disappear. So the thing people couldn't solve for was caffeine, you know, a lot of soda consumption is based around caffeine and, and having it at a time when you're looking for a little bit of a left. And in order to replace that, you know, the thought was, okay, well, maybe it's energy drinks, or maybe it's iced coffee. So it was this incredible challenge, and just the head scratching challenge. And it wasn't just, it wasn't just at the product development level, it really what's happening at the retail level. And that that's really where Matt, in the consumer level anticipated the retail for a minute, you know, is a big problem when a product, like a category like soda starts to shrink for retail, and I mean, they, you know, it just is such a big volume driver for them, it takes up so much space in the store. And so one of the fun things that started happening was we started to have conversations with people at the retail level. And they they were raising a lot of the same questions and wanting to engage in a conversation about how you solve it, you know, what, what's coming next. And those relationships became invaluable for us. The consumer actually, I think already kind of got it could be looking back when you when you think about when you look at some of those early products and and and what was happening with the regional brands around the country. So you got to remember, we flavored sparkling water, there were there were regional brands or Super Regional brands, exclusively there were there really were no national brands in the beginning. And then there were two international brands and Perrier and San Pellegrino. And that was it, like, you had polar you had a cry in the center of the country. And, you know, mountain valley spring water, you know, you had these sort of strong topo, Chico, these strong regional brands, and then a couple of international. And I think if you were in those markets, at the time, even when we were starting, you probably saw the beginning of that sparkling water, really kind of uptake we didn't. So we read, we actually started with more of a soda profile. So we thought the better. But what was going to solve the soda problem with a better soda with a with a soda that had cleaner ingredients that was you know, better for you. So it's more about whole ingredient approach as opposed, but it had some sugar in it. And actually even our early versions had natural flavors. It was really once we got into a we are two years in 2012. We started in 2010 that we began making the unsweetened version of wheat we were a refrigerated brand for four and a half, five years. And really more soda I would say oriented is here again we we sort of as we began to make the product and then the consumer began to really now voiced their concerns around ingredients and sweeteners. And we also figured out the production side of the business that's really where we we jumped in with both feet and actually once again, I guess, retired the soda line so we actually got out completely even though it was actually quite a good business and we decided we wanted to sort of go all in on sparkling water, you know, kind of 2020 1516 that's that's when you know that's when we really begin to focus our all of our energy around This is space. We're now in today. Marc Gutman 45:04 And in Where did the name come from? And as you answer that, it might also lead us to you mentioned Hey, like, I started this by myself, shortly thereafter leaving, you know, your your commitment after the acquisition. So where did the name come from? And then what did the growth of the company look like? Like when did it go from, you know, Bill plus somebody? Bill Creelman 45:30 The name originated from from my days working out on the fishing boat. So I was, I think I was 15 or so. And one of the Catherine's I was working with, I was the maid on the boat where a charter fishing boat, told me about this word called spindrift. And it was, you know, the way we were getting pounded by surf coming back from grade point out to the far end of the island. And it was a beautiful sunny day, but we were soaking wet. And he said, you know what this is mist is that is blowing off the top of these ways. And I didn't and he said, Well, it's called spindrift. And it's, it's referring to sort of the whitewash and the wave as, as the wind loads, and it sheared the top of the wave off. And there's some reason I just thought that word was really interesting. I don't know why exactly, it just I thought spin and drift are two kind of fun fun words. And I know why exactly it stopped. But someone was fast forward to when I was thinking of a name for the sparkling water lying in bed, you know, freshing and, and sort of laid in lovely in this sort of thing. I came back to that word, as far as the growth did it for a while, just bought myself for a couple of years. And then it brought on a woman who who was amazing what she did and had it had done an amazing job pioneering other brands. And I had worked with her it's turnings. And she helped me on the west coast. And so we kind of went at it kind of, on either side of the country. And, and then as we started to get more traction, we brought on an operation person and customer service and began to kind of build up the team more formally. And that is, you know, I guess I'd be remiss if I didn't pause there and say like, the team is really, you know, when you're when you're going up against Coke and Pepsi and the National huge multinational like day one, we realized right away that we had to have a strategy that was different than everyone else, like we were not going to win just going right down the middle of the grocery store. For neither these are these businesses are impenetrable if you take that approach. And so really, like, what what what we did is we sort of held hands together and said, like, we're gonna come up with a way to try to outsmart or out you know, kind of flank the competition go places that they would not think to go or can't go because of their consumer or their customer advantage, whatever that was, and, and we still we started, actually in food service. So we, we really grew up in our brand really got traction early on, in places like sweet green and Panera and chopped and these other, there were a whole, there's a whole class of food service accounts there, we're starting to redefine what it meant to have a salad and a sandwich. At the same time, we are trying to redefine what it meant to have a sparkling beverage. And we really partnered on this challenge of redefining this whole experience of consuming, you know, Lunchables really are just having a meal what that meant from an ingredient standpoint. So in that in that same thing happened with some of our retailers like Trader Joe's and target and Whole Foods and independent retailers like they also that we had a special value for them that cannot be met by some of the bigger guys, the categories like they really got really read and they got, who we were, why we are different and that our brand is meant more to them, or at least was interesting enough that they were willing to give a shot. And that and that that was a really important. Those were really important moments for us. Marc Gutman 49:40 Yeah, and especially where you're sitting in your position. Now that all sounds pretty awesome and great, but I can only imagine that you're sitting around conceiving a new business, you're like we're gonna go into a category that no one really knows. We're gonna go Oh, by the way, part of that category is competing with The biggest brands in the world. And we're going to evangelize that. Like, let's go team. And then I'm sure that had to be super terrifying at times. And how did you know that it was actually going to work? Like at what moment? Because I have to imagine there were times you're like, I don't even know if this is going to even pull this off. Bill Creelman 50:21 Yeah, I think you're always in the recesses of your mind. And I think it's actually healthy to always be saying, like, we've got to keep, you know, we should never sort of rest on our laurels. So I would say we are, we still have that kind of mentality as a group. Even today, I think, I guess, you know, in 2016, we, we cut and moved pretty directly into into the canned format, we had been in glass for a little while we got into the APAC, which is our current configuration, if you see it's in a retail store today, and we were lucky enough to begin working with, you know, some some local and more national retailers that has sort of put us into the stats now like really for firmly. And one retailer Trader Joe's, I would say just because it's a branded product, I didn't share that, but they, you know, they really are incredibly, you know, gracious with us in terms of in terms of, you know, putting it putting our product out into the world and just without any real, you know, Porsche or any any big advertising campaigns, and they go, Well, how is it gonna sell like, it's on the show, our people interested or not, and in a product really was really well received. And I think that was probably a moment for us where we said, okay, I think even when we step away from the brand for a minute, not they're pushing like crazy are sampling or convincing people to have to buy it, you know, every moment of the day, there seems to be some organic excitement about this proposition that isn't just, you know, fleeting. And that, and that was certainly really important. Marc Gutman 52:23 And you mentioned packaging, and that you've gone through different packaging iterations, like how important they like, and that there's some shelf space and how Yeah, there's competition there. Like how important is do you think packaging is to the success of your brand? Bill Creelman 52:37 It's, it's super important. In terms of, you know, it really is the main way you communicate with a consumer, especially early on, you know, you have to have a package that has cuts through the clutter that immediately speaks to someone that has, you know, a shopping cart that's small, and a kid is screaming, and they're on their cell phone, like even in that environment, it needs to speak to them somehow. And so, I think, what was a big struggle for us in sort of a proof point in a lot of ways, but but more for God's sake, that there wasn't even really commonly understood language for this category. You know, some people in the northeast, seltzer, some people call it sparkling water, some people call it carbonated, dominated ingredient in the carbon. There was there was no, there was no commonly used vernacular, which is, which is exactly what you want. And in some ways, because it means the category is still maturing, but another way is presented challenges. And I would say the same as with the design aesthetic, you know, it wasn't as obvious to us. You know, because we have real ingredients, we have a couple of calories. We look at the packaging, every other brand in the category. There's zeros all over the front of their pack. Because there is no calorific value to a natural flavor. There's just just, there's just a flavor and so we had to figure out how to walk that fine line between making sure was really clear we are sparkling water. So we needed to sit in the right place in the store but also that actually a couple of calories were proof point that it's got lemons and oranges. Wow. And so that you can imagine the hours and hours of time just thinking about that delicate balance of being recognizable as a sparkling water but also being you know, pretty radically different than you know we have a little color No one's ever seen color and sparkling water. What's it doing in this perfectly water aisle? No one's ever you know, they just there was so much that was different about our product that had not been tested before. It was quite It was quite scary and but also So we started a loop of face to face with our consumer that we've now we have about 550,000 kind of drifters, which is what we call our community. And they we really wanted to hear from them. Like, tell us what you think. And we really think about that as our true north. Now, you know, whenever we launch a product, we sort of talk to them, we run a by them, we get their input. And they also, I think, feel very comfortable with, with sharing their point of view on things like packaging, and what what does it look like? And even with the recent launch of spinner spike, you know, we sort of did all of that kind of with their consumer input, even actually even retailer input, you know, along the way, because I found that that kind of collaboration sets you up much more for success than for going off into a room somewhere and just designing it and debuting and say, here it is, you know, you, you take a lot of the risk equation out of it. Marc Gutman 56:08 So what's your favorite flavor of Spindrift? And you know, you can't say it's like kids, and you can't pick one or anything like that, because it's sparkling water. Bill Creelman 56:17 On my line. I drink a lot. I drink, I average, six a day, something like that. And so I actually started with strawberry and pineapple kind of the breakfast, these sort of flavors. And then I always have a blackberry with lunch. I have a lemon with an espresso at two o'clock. I'm sort of a creature of habit. And then I sprinkled in half and a half along the way. So I have favorite flavors at certain times of the day. I would say more than an absolute favorite. Genuinely. Marc Gutman 56:51 Fair enough. I'll accept that. That's a great answer. I like that. And so what does the future look like for Spindrift as we're sitting here and looking forward with? Where are you taking Spindrift? And what are you most excited about? Bill Creelman 57:04 I think sparkling water is only just beginning. I think it is going to be it already is. But I think 2025 we think it will be the most important subcategory of beverage in our lifetimes. You know, it's projected now to be somewhere between 25 and $30 billion. But I started the business we're hoping against like three or four. And I'm including spikes in traditional flavored and all the versions of sparkling water. And so that from that point of view is only kind of 2% household penetration as a brand today, we we think there's only kind of up from here. So as a business, we're really preparing ourselves for that kind of growth and thinking about, you know, the the ultimate challenge that you have, as a startup, which is like how do you maintain the culture and kind of the energy and the creativity and compassion, with the backdrop of a bigger business and need systems and all the kind of normalization that you have to have structure Do you have to have as you grow? So I am We are thrilled, we're feel so fortunate to be a disposition as a brand, if you're really optimistic that, that we can really be, you know, one of the brands that sort of leads the way in terms of what the future of beverage will look like, I think it will be very different than the way it used to be when we all sat around and had big two liters of soda in the middle of our table, you know, with every meal. So we're excited for that. Marc Gutman 58:45 You think back to that young bill, who was hustling around Western Mass and trying to start businesses and at farmer's market and doing this and that. If you saw you today, what do you think he'd say? Bill Creelman 58:58 I think he would say you're a little crazy, just, you know, the time commitment and, and, you know, the sort of the resources and just anguish required. But I also think, in many ways, they you know, it's been it will be a worthwhile investment. You know, I think it's similar to the advice that I'm often asked sort of about by young entrepreneurs, you know, what does all this mean? How do we afford I think, I really think that even though there was a longer journey for me than I'm sure than other folks who have gotten more efficiently I think there was those next bruises and scars along the way ended up being so valuable, you know, now to help inform decisions and tend to you know, keep keep the boat running the state in the right direction. Marc Gutman 1:00:04 That is Bill Creelman of Spindrift. It always amazes me how overnight successes take 20 years to build. Also how previous businesses roles and experiences, often ladder up and connect dots to the next great business. One thing that stood out to me was Bill's comment about how important it is to stand out from the crowd to get the consumers attention in the midst of everything else they have going on. I also thought it genius to not just be thinking about what does my customer drink? But what do they eat? When they drink? What do they eat for lunch? Hmm. salads and light sandwiches. A brand should be there to finding those complimentary and adjacent brands are so important, yet overlooked by many businesses. Start thinking about the entire customer. And you might find an insight that will help you end up being sold at Panera Whole Foods and Trader Joe's as well. A big thank you to Bill Creelman in the entire spindrift team, keep sparkling. We will link to all things Bill Creelman and spindrift in the show notes. If you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wildstory.com. Our best guests like Bill come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS see you'll never miss an episode a lot big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can't deny. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

BGBS 063 | Douglas Davis | The Davis Group | Decide To Learn Something NewBrooklyn-based Douglas Davis enjoys being one of the variety of voices needed in front of and behind the concept. His approach to creativity combines right-brained creative problem solving with left-brained strategic thinking. Douglas' integrated point of view has enabled his natural evolution from designer to strategist, author, and professor. His expertise spans advertising, design, and business education and has found an international audience through presenting his tools on combining the three to produce more effective creative business solutions. Douglas enjoys interacting with creative people and regularly presents at industry conferences including HOW Design Live, RGD Design Thinkers, The One Club Educators Summit, Midwest Digital Marketing Conference, Revolve, and The Art & Branding Conference. In 2016, Douglas wrote his first book Creative Strategy and the Business of Design, a title currently being translated into Chinese by Beijing Normal University. He is a former co-chair of AIGA's National Diversity and Inclusion Taskforce and regularly contributes to the business of design discourse in Printmag.com, Applied Arts, and The European Business Review. In 2011 Douglas founded The Davis Group LLC and continues to offer strategic solutions to client branding, digital, and design problems. In addition to client work, Douglas leverages his professional experience to inspire high school, undergraduate, and graduate students. As the longest-serving member on the 4As High School Advisory Board, his experience was translated into the four-year curriculum at New York City's High School for Innovation in Advertising and Media. Following the launch, Douglas contributed as an education consultant for the launch of the Manhattan Early College School for Advertising (MECA). Currently, he is Chair of the Emmy-Award winning B.F.A. in Communication Design program at New York City College of Technology in Brooklyn and serves on the advisory boards of the University of Oregon's Masters in Advertising and Brand Responsibility and City College's Masters in Branding and Integrated Communications. Douglas holds a B.A. in Graphic Design from Hampton University, an  M.S. in Communications Design from Pratt Institute and an M.S. in Integrated Marketing from New York University. In this episode, you'll learn…The importance of diversifying the minds and perspectives to address the world's issues and industry changes. Try something new. Master something you're not good at. Find the fear and reinvent yourself. ResourcesWebsite: douglasdavis.com Case Study: Imported From Brooklyn Youtube: Imported From Brooklyn Film Win Without Pitching Article: Red, White, Black and Blue: The Land of Mixed Signals COMD: douglasdavis.com/comd LinkedIn: Douglas Davis Quotes[15:49] I like to say our job is to take the rational language of business and turn it into the emotional language of design…I also like to say that creative people really are the spoonful of sugar that make business and marketing objectives palatable to the public. [42:52] We have to keep changing, we have to keep growing, we have to keep learning, to even keep up, to even remain relevant. Why would you not want as many different minds or perspectives on a problem that you can grab? [48:12] I'm going to turn my weaknesses into strengths. And that is the evolution. It's a mindset. Leading is a verb and a posture. [53:55] We can't measure everybody by the same yardstick…creative people like me and you can grow up comparing themselves to other people based on those measures and conclude that something's wrong with them, when they're the ones with the superpowers. Have a brand problem? We can help.Book your no-obligation, Wildstory Brand Clarity Call now. Learn about our Brand Audit and Strategy process Identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh Determine if your business has a branding problem See examples of our work and get relevant case studies See if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level Book Your Brand Clarity Call TODAY Podcast TranscriptDouglas Davis 0:00 I think when you look at what's going on in society, when you look at design needing to become more diverse when you look at the demographics in America, when you look at how some people will describe what's going on in the southern border as an, you know, an infestation. terrible word, other people describe it as well. It's what humans do when they're fleeing or in a situation where they have to flee. It's what happens on every border, because if we're having a crisis, here you go, and seek a better place to be. Marc Gutman 0:41 podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like being backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory, we're talking about strategy and changing the world. I'm not kidding. This episode goes deep and calls out those with the creative spirit to stand up and be the change. Before we get into today's show. Can I level with you? This podcast ain't cheap. But we continue to produce it as a service to you, the audience. And if today's episode isn't worth the price of admission, your time, then no episode is I need you. If you like enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify. Use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines rating on their charts. If you haven't reviewed, you know who you are. And by the way, I do see who is reviewed and who hasn't. What are you waiting for? review service. That's it guilt trip over. Let's get on with the show. Today's guest is Douglas Davis. I really don't know where to start with Douglas. I first learned of Douglas when I read his book, creative strategy and the business of design. And it's one of those books that literally changed my perspective and worldview on strategy and business. So I had to meet the person who wrote such an influential piece of work. And Boy, was I in for a surprise. Douglas Davis takes great pride in being Brooklyn based and in his words, enjoys being one of the variety of voices needed in front of and behind the concept. His approach to creativity combines right brained, creative problem solving, with left brained, strategic thinking. Douglass's integrated point of view has enabled his natural evolution from designer to strategist, author, and professor, and his expertise spans advertising, design and business education, and is found in international audience through presenting his tools and combining the three to produce more effective creative business solutions. Douglas enjoys interacting with creative people and regularly presents IT industry conferences, including how design live RGD design thinkers, the one club educators summit, Midwest digital marketing conference revolve and the art and branding conference. In 2016, Douglas wrote his first book, creative strategy in the business of design, a title currently being translated into Chinese by Beijing Normal University. He is a former co chair of AI je A's national diversity and inclusion Task Force and regularly contributes to the business of design discourse in print mag comm Applied Arts in the European Business Review, Douglas founded The Davis Group, and he continues to offer strategic solutions to client branding, digital and design problems. In addition to client work, Douglas leverages his professional experience to inspire High School, undergraduate and graduate students as the longest serving member on the four A's High School advisory board. His experience was translated into the four year curriculum at New York City's High School for innovation in advertising and media. Following the launch, Douglas contributed as an education consultant for the launch of the Manhattan Early College School for advertising. Currently, he is the chair of the Emmy Award winning BFA and communication program at New York City College of Technology in Brooklyn, and serves on the advisory boards of the University of Oregon's masters in advertising. And brand responsibility, and City College's master and branding and integrated communications. Douglas holds a BA in graphic design from Hampton University, an MS and Communication Design from Pratt Institute, and an MS in integrated marketing from New York University. Wow, that was a big, big bio, we really don't touch any of it, except for the book in this episode. And that's why I wanted to share that with you. Now. I'm going to stop talking and turn it over to Douglas because well, this is his story. I am here with Douglas Davis. And I couldn't be more excited. Douglas. Douglas Davis 5:47 I'm excited to be here to thank you so much. Marc Gutman 5:49 We were just having a little conversation before recording. And I wish we were recording it. And I know this is going to be a great conversation and in a great episode. And Douglas is a strategist and author and a professor. He's also the author of a book that I think is just gold called Creative Strategy and the Business of Design. Here's my copy Douglas. It is less it has dog years. It's got notes, it's got. It's got post it notes, I mean, this thank you for your support. Yeah, this is like a resource for me, and I can't wait to talk to you about it. It's definitely one of my top, you know, 10 books on branding. Absolutely. But thank you for having me. Yeah. And in addition to being the strategist, author and professor, what are you doing right now? I mean, I see some Emmys in the background. I'm super impressed. When they tell us once you tell us a little bit about what else you're doing cuz you wear a lot of hats. Douglas Davis 6:43 I do. And first of all, Marc, I want to just say thank you, to all your listeners. Thank you all for spending time with us. My name is Douglas Davis, as Marc said, strategist, author, and professor. And right now my current role is that I'm also the chair of the BFA in Communication Design that New York City College of technologies, you know, Department of Communication Design, it's sort of a big mouthful, but we're part of the City University of New York, and over my shoulder, or the Emmys that we were able to when we were nominated for two of them for this story, imported from Brooklyn. And overall, it's about, you know, what, what, how you find the path the possible when you have more ambition and resources. And so overall, we offer graphic design, illustration, we offer web design, we've got advertising, we've got graphic design, so you can come to our program for a fraction of the resources for a fraction of the cost is, you know, going to the design schools. But it's a wonderful, wonderful opportunity to be here. And that's what I do in my day job. Marc Gutman 7:55 Oh, that's so awesome. And I saw that you had put a Vimeo link in the chat is that to the piece that you just described, Douglas Davis 8:02 That's actually, we just recently entered the one show. And, you know, please Wish us luck, we're in three different categories. But this is to the case study of what the impact of that piece imported from Brooklyn was. And so I just wanted to sort of throw that into the mix. Maybe I can go into the show notes, but I'll also send a link to to import it from Brooklyn. It's about 22 minutes documentary on Tony de spinia, who was my professor of prep, and I didn't realize this until years later. But the program that I'm the chair of right now, Tony, when he emigrated to America, he wanted to go to Providence to didn't have enough money. So he went to the communication design department. And just, you know, how wonderful, certain serendipitous, you know, that sort of connection is that I'm now the chair of this program that's offering, you know, private school education and public school prices. So his story is the same story as our Asian, black and Hispanic, Eastern European students today. So it's, it's pretty wonderful in that way, you'll check it out. Marc Gutman 9:19 Yeah, absolutely. We'll link to that in the show notes. We'll make sure everyone knows about it. And I'm going to be watching that. Absolutely. After the after the interview. Thank you very much. So Douglas, what is Creative Strategy and the Business of Design? You know, I was thought design was just a bunch of like, you know, pretty colors and logos and, and some maybe some posters, Douglas Davis 9:39 To a lot of us it is and I was really fortunate enough to have my skills polished in places that I couldn't afford, like Pratt Institute for my first Master's, but uh, just to back up a little bit. I went to Hampton University is historically black college, and I went to study graphic design and photography. Even before that in K through 12, I'm from I was born and raised in Lexington, South Carolina, a very small town, right outside of Columbia, South Carolina, the Capitol there. And surprisingly, we had really wonderful art program really wonderful. And wonderful in a way that I had, you know, in K through 12, murals, rock carvings, ceramic sculpture, the wheel, had exposure to printmaking, drawing, painting, all those different things, right, you know, going through K through 12. Marc Gutman 10:35 So that, was that your primary interest then was that, like, were you? Or was it like a side thing? Or were you you were kind of an art art kid? Douglas Davis 10:43 I was an art kid only because I was really bored, I didn't have a place to channel that energy. And it was just a really great place to to focus my F, my just effort and attention on, I literally applied myself, you know, really didn't apply myself Truthfully, I could go to class and listen, you know, be the class clown. And then the teachers like, what did I just say, and I could verbatim spit back every single thing, because I could do two things at once I wasn't being engaged mentally. So when I found art, it was a place for me to focus and channel that energy and my behavior changed. And so maybe some of your listeners would be able to relate in that way that just having an outlet really did change my life in that way. But in terms of what Creative Strategy and the Business of Design is, it's what I was able to write down as, just as I fumble through my career, I realized that I had gone as far as I could go with my aesthetic training, and again, going to undergraduate going to graduate school, bouncing around from agency to agency design, firm, publishing digital. I also went to NYU and got another Master's. But I realized that design school doesn't teach you business, it teaches you to focus on what are the tactical parts of what should be strategic decisions, largest strategic decisions, without even explain to you what those decisions are, then. So the challenge there is that when you are working somewhere, and you get promoted for doing your job really well for answering those client briefs in ways that are not only creative, but effective. I think there's some assumptions sometimes that you must know strategy, because you're able to knock it out of the park on, you know, all these different points. And so eventually, what I started to notice is that clients were not just coming to me for creative content, they were coming to me for strategic context. And I was uncomfortable with that, because I didn't know strategy. And so I realized that over time, I started losing battles, even though I could write the proposal, build the team, you know, pitch the business, do whatever I needed to do. And I was able to get positions of responsibility relatively quickly as a result of that. But eventually, I started losing battles, because I couldn't justify by the creative decisions within the context of the business and marketing objectives that we should have been trying to hit. And so I lost those battles. Because I fell back on my aesthetic, you know, I was arguing typefaces, well, we should have been talking about marketing objectives or metrics that we needed to hit within the business, you know, objectives. And so one day I stumbled into a strategy session, I realized, Oh, this is that thing that keeps beating me This is that that language that I don't know how to speak. And so let me learn this. That's why I went to NYU, to add the strategy to the creative side, so that I could, my rationale was that I could, you know, become a better creative because I could think, how they think to do what we do like to speak their language, in order to justify what was there. And I'll give you one more piece of that, because this was, you know, you know, you've been in the business for a while. This is back when you could learn ActionScript flash, this is back when you could choose to just double down on the execution part of things. And so even then, I realized, you know, what, I don't want to sit outside the meeting, and wait for these people who are making decisions inside the conference room to come out and tell me what to do and when to have it and, and whatever. So how about I inject creativity into the beginning of solving a business problem, versus being a better executer? And I'm so glad I did that, obviously, because flashes no more. And I think that that's, that's a really important lesson. And a lot of those lessons are what, what I wrote down and Creative Strategy and the Business of Design, in addition to the tools, the frameworks, and the things that allowed me to get to where I needed to go when I added strategy to my creative skill set. So hopefully It'll be useful to somebody to listeners. Marc Gutman 15:03 Yeah, well, you know, I think so I mean, the concept of strategy has completely changed my life. I mean, when I started my career, like, I was exactly the the executer I was like, someone wanted something. And yeah, you know, I started in the movie business, and it was like, you want a story? Great. I'll write that right guys. I didn't even like ask why do you want the story? Right? Like, I was, like, so excited. And, and actually, I, I had a limiting belief that if I asked why that if I questioned it, I would either lose the job, or they would think I was, I was less intelligent or unintelligent, because I was asking questions, you know? Douglas Davis 15:36 Well, that's part of our that's part of our superpower, right? In terms of those emotions, that you need to find a way to channel you need to find an outlet for It's why we are I like to say our job is to take the rational Language of Business and turn it into the emotional language of design, that's our job, we translate that for people. I also like to say that, you know, designers are the spoon. creative people really, are the spoonful of sugar that make business and marketing objectives palatable to the public. And so I can absolutely agree that that insecurity and even navigating those rooms where you don't even know why they want something, and you're a little afraid to ask questions, because you don't want to seem as if you shouldn't have been in that room in the first place. All of those things, I think, are really, really important. And I dress dealing with your emotions, and just how to navigate different rooms. Because if you as you know, if when you're walking into that room, after pouring your heart and soul into whatever you're going to show, and you walk into that room full of people who you don't know, and your emotions, that thing that got you into the room, because of your creativity are now your worst enemy, because you can't even formulate the words, to articulate what it is that you've done. And I think, you know, all these things were things that I had to learn from failing. And so the other piece, too, you know, design schools don't teach business is that business schools don't teach how to get the best out of designers how to inspire creative people. And I realized that because after going there, there was still this gap. And, you know, I had to learn that when you walk into that room as a creative person, they're not going to learn creativity, you have to learn their language. And you have to then put the recommendation up front, instead of walking into the creative side of things where you're going to tell the story. And you're going to talk about the insight and we're going to arrive at the end here it is, you have to completely flop how you even tell the stories in these rooms. But all of those things were things that I had to learn through failing through having outcomes completely opposite of what I wanted to happen. So I can absolutely agree with some of those insecurities. And, and some part of what I teach now is really about organizing the chaos, questioning the answers that clients will come to you with, because they think that they know, or they're still trying to get the same solution that worked six months ago, or in this case, now that we're in Coronavirus times, you know, a year ago, but the environment shifted, and none of that still none of that's even applicable anymore, in order to then turn insights in execution. So we have to retrain the way we listen as creative people. And some part of that is exactly what you're talking about. Marc Gutman 18:34 I mean, thank you so much for sharing that. And I couldn't agree more. And, and and that in itself is a tremendous insight. I mean, what do you do when, you know, let's just hop right to it, like, what do you do when a client has skipped that step? So, you know, hypothetically, you come in, and they've either, you know, started down a campaign road, or they say, look, we've chosen, you know, an identity, but, and you're and then you know, you start to ask your questions, and you're like, Well, wait a second, you haven't gone to step one, like how do you handle that? Like, what do you do when that happens? Douglas Davis 19:06 Yeah, well, overall, one good thing about having been in the business for a while and just being really, really specific about what it is that I do and what I don't do. I haven't been brought in, in a in a situation where there's miscommunication like that in quite a while. But when I was in a situation where people thought that they needed me, but didn't know how much the value of what I would be bringing with cost in asking those questions and and realizing, oh, okay, you're not clear that the way that you're going about this is what you want, but it's not what you need. And I think for me, I've always just walked into the room and been very Matter of fact, and either you hire me or you don't, but I'm going to tell you what you need because I'm the expert and I'll make The recommendations, but as the client, you will make the decisions. And so it's become really easy to to really listen and to know really quickly, whether I'm going to refer you to other sites or other people, because either a, you don't have the budget or B, you're not clear, you need a little bit more information, in order to shift away from being price sensitive, or you need a little bit more information to shift away from that thing that you saw that you liked, that you want the exact copy of that you're not saying. But that you, you're basically going to critique all the work and through a series of meetings, you know, we're going to come out with the exact copy of something else. And so I think, being willing to walk away, being willing to refer other people and being willing to say, you know, if you go to this website, you can be up and running in an hour. Or if you go to this mix of websites, you can have what you need to and under five grand, and then I add the last piece, and so can your competitors. And after that, I think there's a little bit of a pause, been, you know, we can have a conversation where we back up a little bit, and then we can start talking about the value of the services that they need, whether they hired me or not. But I think it's important to just take control of the conversation in a way that you are offering things that makes the client think and it may not even be in that current conversation, it may take a couple of weeks, but giving them something to think about. And then sort of being willing to let it go, has been the way that I've been able to navigate situations where I'm really not the right person. It's best for everybody, if you just you know, shut it down. Marc Gutman 21:54 Absolutely, I've had to walk away from my share. And that I also learned that the very hard way, I mean, I look back at all the things that went bad and all the mistakes I made. And I wouldn't know that without doing it. But it was typically like, there were a lot most of the time, I'd say there were like misalignment issues. Right now. And, and you just learn that the hard way. And I think that's sometimes the only way to learn. So when we look at your book, and we look at it, a lot of the work you've done here, if there was like one thing that we were to know about this book and take away, what would that be? And then what framework is like, you know, I know there's no silver bullet, but which one is the one that's like, if I had to only kind of do one, i i'd lean into that. Douglas Davis 22:37 What chapter six and seven? That was the last question first chapter six and seventh deal with the creative strategy framework, which is literally an alignment exercise. You know, it's, it's something I developed when I was at NYU, when one day, my competitive strategy professor, you know, sort of looked out at the class and held the the whiteboard, pen out, and looked out and says, you know, who's going to step to the board, and I stepped to the board, I was the first one grabbed that pencil. And I started working out this column that, you know, was was four columns and three steps that would help me to organize the chaos, because when I first started learning the language of business, it was new. And so I could be on brand, but off strategy or message on message, but off strategy. And so it takes a little time to speak and understand the language of business. But this tool helps to organize all the information by going through a series of steps where you qualify what the information is that you're dealing with, to create and build your creative work or concepts or just coming up with thought starters, you could use it as a brainstorming tool. I've actually sat in meetings with clients and literally started to write the notes from the briefing into the framework so that I could take what wasn't given to me back to the creative team, stick it up on the whiteboard, and we could just literally hit the ground running where the client left off. But that's really what I would say that that tool and any tool, any framework, you know it we're not talking about something that's a recipe, right? We're not talking about something that is, you know, fill in the blanks, and you'll voila, you'll have this any strategy, any any design even, that's worth its salt is going to be a custom solution. And so the framework, I always like to say is only as good as the information that you put into it, the thinking that goes into it. So yeah, that's that's the one tool that if you didn't go anywhere else, Marc Gutman 24:49 This is the one we're talking about. Right. Great. And so I'll just kind of hold it up there so people can see and get a sense about it. But that's, that's it. Douglas Davis 24:56 That's the one tool that would be that now, the one thing That I would tell people about the book would be that this book is for someone who understands that our careers are a series of transitions, right? You go to you go to college, and you transition from being a student, to breaking into the industry, then you break, you've broken into the industry, you transition from being a junior, to someone who's seen a little battle. And then you transition from someone who's seen a little battle to someone who gets a little bit more responsibility. Now, there are people who report to me, I'm sort of client facing now. And then you move from that person to someone who, at different points might even be a little bit intimidated that the people who are coming in might be a little faster, might have a little edge, because they're the last people and even though they're going to get paid the least, you know, you start to wonder whether you can hold your own as things shift so fast. So the one thing that I would tell people about Creative Strategy and the Business of Design is that it's built for a person who understands that what we do evolves, it shifts. And we all know that, whether it's learning flash, or ActionScript, or whether it's learning about new typefaces, or learning about Slack, or and how to use Basecamp. And all these different things are like a timeline that sort of bring us from the very beginning, and to where we, where we are, and then it keeps going because now we have Tick Tock and we got clubhouse, and you know, everything is going to continue to change. And as creative people, we've always understood that we've always done that in a way that would allow us to, you know, survive, because we're continuing to change. But I think when I think about 1999, when I entered the industry, you know, the.com recession, and all the websites that were there, people didn't know how to make money on the web, I wish that people would have known that, you know, direct marketing was the father of digital because it's, you know, accountable, you can track it, right. But nobody knew that. So they're throwing all this money into this new medium, that my professors at the time I was at Pratt, my professors at the time and not worked in. And so I'm applying my skills, these traditional skills to this medium that no one's worked in who's taught me and you realize that, you know, in 99, no one had a web design degree, because it didn't exist, you couldn't study it. Everybody who was there participating in that industry was there because they decided to learn something new. And I think that that's a really important insight, because I think we're back there right now. If you think about the ways that the Coronavirus has made everyone have to pivot, we have to figure out ways to do the same thing, the exact same thing and complete different ways. Or we have to figure out ways to take what we've already what we have on hand skills or equipment or whatever, and do something completely different. And so I think, when you look at where things were back, then and 99, where you can go to school to learn web design, but there's this industry, you realize that your skills, your willingness to be agile, to change, to morph, that's what actually allows you to survive. And when you add on top of it, the trend, you know, Apple, Microsoft, Google, they're saying the you know, since actually since 2017, that you don't have to have a college degree to enter their ranks, we're back to a point where skills, what you can do, the value that you bring as a person, regardless of what your degree says. That's what matters. And so I think that the book is about those transitions. And, and I wrote it obviously, before we were in this point, because the principles are what we're really talking about here, when you're really understanding that what we do will always evolve, and it's going to evolve at the speed of business, it's going to evolve at the speed of the next thing that marketers are going to create that we're going to have to figure out ourselves to engage and build the relationships that our clients want us to build with our customers who are going to join that platform, and who are going to adopt it in mass in ways that we're gonna have to figure out how to show up and you know, entertain them in a way that they're not shutting us off or blocking us. And I think that that evolution and change that constant change is something that I'm encouraged that as creative people that we're dealing with this pandemic right now. Because who better? Who better to deal with something to change the whole world in an instant? If they no snapped his fingers? We literally were in a situation Where how you enter the industry was different. How you work when you're in the industry is completely different. And we're literally back where we, as the people with experience, we're in the exact same position, as I was saying about in 1999, where my world class practice, the two professors had no experience in this thing that I was going to apply my skills to, were literally back to that point where none of us with experience has more experience than any student. And any, like, we're back, it's leveled the playing field, but who better to to navigate that, who better to lead that then creative people who have to do that to save their lives, every single time anyway, you have to reinvent yourself. So that's the one thing that I would say that the book will help you to do. And you know, I always tell people, it's very similar to like a Harvard Business Case Study, if you're, if you're familiar with that, where your objective is to read it, and then figure out who the decision maker is, and then play that person's role, you step into their role. And everything that you're reading for is to find your, your recommendation, the risk and rewards are what you would do in that situation. So it's about role playing, and sort of stepping into those shoes. The book gives you the stories of why these things are important that I'm going to talk to you about. The book tells you the stories of how I got here, it gives you my story and the way I do it, but it's asking you to bring yourself to it. It's asking you to take the thought process the principles, and then apply it to your own situation, and figure out how to save your own life. That's what this is about the transitions. So that's the one thing that I would tell you, if you're interested in the book, if you want to keep reinventing yourself, this is this is going to help you do that, because it's going to teach you the language of how things change. And that one tool that, you know, if I said, you know, all the other ones have to fall away, would be the creative strategy framework, because it helps you to organize that chaos. And it'll help you to only focus on what's relevant, and solving the problems and those four columns and three steps in order to question the answers that the client comes to you with, so that you can you know, organize that chaos, question those answers and turn insights into executions. And those executions can be the actual work themselves, it could be the brainstorming session, it could be the brief because sometimes, going back to what I was saying about business school doesn't teach how to inspire designers, we've all had a brief that's the size of a novel that's completely worthless, that was given to you by somebody who has a strategist title, and who came from sort of the business side of things, but who has no idea how to talk to a creative person. And that's what's so ironic that the very things that make us professionals to be on the same team to service that client don't even teach us to talk to each other. So sometimes to have a sound strategy, you got to write to yourself as a creative person, to even have one. And so this framework will help you either get started on the creativity part of things, thought starters, it'll help you write the briefs. It can help you with strategy itself. But it's a very, very elastic tool that I'm asking you to bring yourself to. Marc Gutman 33:39 A common question I get all the time is Marc, can you help me with our brand? Yes, we help companies solve branding problems. And the first step would be to schedule a no obligation brand clarity call, we'll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wild story, comm and send us an email, we'll get you booked right away. So whether you're just getting started with a new business, or whether you've done some work and need a refresh, or whether you're a brand that's high performing and wants to stay there, we can help. After you book your brand clarity call, you'll learn about our brand audit and strategy process will identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh, will determine if your business has a branding problem. And you'll see examples of our work and get relevant case studies. We'll also see if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level. So what are you waiting for, build the brand you've always dreamed of. Again, we'll link to that in the show notes or head over to wildstorm comm and send us an email. Now back to the show. I just feel like I got a master class in a few minutes. There. are on strategy and you've really changed actually my perspective and worldview I'm, I'm kind of caught up in obsessed with relevance and this idea of staying relevant being relevant, am I relevant? How do I stay relevant? I recently had a post where I was music, I have never felt the right age, you know, when I was younger, I always wanted more, and to be in someone else's seat. Now, as I'm further my career, I'm looking back and be like, oh, there's all these tick trackers, like, as you're mentioning, all these things happening, that I don't know, but, but the way you just describe that, and what I heard was that reinventing yourself and always learning something new as a gift and an opportunity. And, you know, I haven't always looked at it that way. And so I just want to take a moment and pause. And thank you for that. Because that's changed really how I am seeing this, this concept of relevance. And I want me to ask you, like, on this topic of relevance, is that one of the reasons you teach? Douglas Davis 35:55 It is, and yet, I, you know, if you were to ask me, if I was going to teach one day, this is, you know, back when I'm bouncing around from agency to agency, I'd say the guy you know, and I thought, the farthest age that I could think I was, like, yeah, I teach when I'm, like, 35, or something, this is me like 22 or 23. And it ended up that I started teaching at 25. And, you know, the model was always there that my teachers, I pride, they worked in the day, and they taught at night. And so I saw that. And so I realized that, you know, ended up being what I saw. And yet in some ways, the relevance part, I'm going to sort of unpack this as well, because I think that this word and the change, and what's going on in our industry is something that is a larger issue that's also going on in our society that I think we have to deal with. But I remember, as I mentioned earlier, I went to Hampton University, historically black college to study graphic design and photography. After leaving there, as I mentioned, I went to private Institute to get my masters. And then after maybe about seven or eight years of losing, like I said, while winning but losing different battles, because I didn't know how to speak that language. I then went to get my second Master's in integrated marketing, I didn't want you. And what I realized lately is that not only did my high school guidance counselor not have a one, even one conversation with me about college, but in those three institutions, there was no one black teaching design or, or strategy. And then I became a design professor, then I became a strategy professor. I think, when you look at what's going on in society, when you look at design needing to become more diverse, when you look at the demographics in America, when you look at how some people will describe what's going on the southern border as an, you know, an infestation. terrible word. Other people describe it as will, it's what humans do, when they're fleeing, or in a situation where they have to flee. It's what happens on every border, because if if we're having a crisis, here you go, and seek a better place to be. I think when we're talking about relevance, when we're talking about representation, when we're talking about being able to see yourself, I can't say that I teach because I, I didn't see someone like me. But I can say that, if we're talking about design changing, if we're talking about the issues that are in our profession, also being a part of what's in our society. I think that when we talk about relevance, I think we have to really have the conversation that is on the base of the Statue of Liberty. It's calling out to immigrants. But our policy has been so different in the past, you know, very different in the past four years, if equal justice under law is on the top of the Supreme Court, and yet, we're watching the George Floyd trial right now in front of us. And there is witness after witness up there telling you that the sequence of events that happened were completely unique and different than what would have normally happened. Then, I think when we talk about relevance, and when we talk about America living up to its melting pot, you know, equals and, you know, liberty and justice under our equal justice under law. I think we have to really talk about belonging. We have to really talk about the fact that people are coming to us because they believe what we say If we were a company, these would be our mission statement documents, these will be our vision documents, but there's so many mixed signals that are built into what they say, and what the actual experiences. And a lot of times, as you mentioned earlier, alignment is what we're being asked to do as creative people we're being asked to come in and align some problem. And I always start with, well, where's the gap between what we say? And what the people's experience is, whenever they trust us? I close that. And I think relevance and belonging are why people are coming to us. But I think that we have to start asking ourselves, as institutions as an industry, are we relevant? Because there's a call and response here? various people come to various institutions or employers or countries, they're basically asking, do I belong? And based in their interactions with the country or with the employer, or with the client, good or bad? They're going to conclude yes or no. And I think that if we can, as an industry, but also as individuals continue to ask ourselves a question that you asked, am I relevant? Are we relevant? If your metric on yes or no, I am relevant or not, I'm not relevant. It's tied to how many groups of people feel comfortable in the space that you've created, how wide your arms are open, then that is a call and response because it's connected. And if you do care about being relevant, but you do see that some people have decided that they don't belong, based on whatever environment you influence or which is created, or what you're a part of, the next step is to go get those people to understand why, right? And so I'm mixing culture, I'm mixing, you know, what's going on in America. But you can't separate it from the problems that are in our industry, you can't, it's not possible to separate the two. And when you look at it like that, it explains what's going on in our industry, whether we're talking about relevance, or belonging. And I think that if we don't become really serious about this, we're there will be threats to creativity, because of diversity being hindered. And I'll go back to just on this point, I'll go back to again, we got clubhouse. Before that it was you know, tick tock. And before that it was Snapchat before that was Twitter, right? And before that Facebook, and I can keep going because it's gonna keep going. So why in the world, would you not want as many different types of minds on the problems when the industry moves at the speed of business, and we've already covered that we have to keep changing, we have to keep growing, we have to keep learning, to even keep up to even remain relevant. Why would you not want as many different minds or perspectives on a problem that you can grab? And so I say this, in hopes of some of your listeners who I know are creative professionals who have influence over their studios, who could determine how exactly to staff, I'm saying this to your listeners, because I'm hoping that they can really think about the new barriers that COVID-19 has posed, since we're all in our houses. You know, right now, going to school depends on your own bandwidth, your own internet speed, your own Mac, your own whatever, right. But if you think about it, we're asking people who don't have a lot to buy the equivalent of a computer that cost as much as the car just to go to school. And, you know, if you don't control what your internet speed is, because if you live in public housing, you know, again, people are going to college in order to get out of this the circumstances that they were born into in many cases, and all they need is a chance. And so, the Coronavirus has put us in a situation where, you know, there are a lot more barriers that are different. And some of the barriers that were there before are not there anymore. So some of it is leveled the playing field. But I think that belonging and relevance like these, these words that we we often talk about as people who are tasked with solving brands problems, you know, do our customers feel like they belong? are we creating a culture where we're solving their problems, like what are their pain points that we discussed that stuff all the time, we talk about relationship management, we're a field built on targeting, we craft messaging, you know, there are all these different words that we talked about. And yet, when we exclude groups of people from sitting around the table, then not only can we not hear their perspective of what creativity is, and how we can solve this problem that it's, it should be different than ours. But we also put ourselves in a situation where we're not helping ourselves in in the demographics that are shifting, you know, because either what's either your client base is going to become more black and brown, or either the people sitting at the table, this should be it should be, shouldn't be really an ad or should be both. But overall, on order to serve that client basis, becoming more black and brown with the demographics of the nation, you got to make sure that they're people behind the concept, who actually understand how to talk to these groups, so that you're being authentic, and you can build that trust. And that you can actually build the customer base because that takes, you know, making promises, and then actually delivering on them. So, again, I know I expanded that into way more, but it's bigger. And again, the strategist in me won't allow me to sort of just look at those two words, as just those two words. The strategist in me says, You know what, this is much bigger. And there are a lot of pieces to this, if we're going to continue to evolve to remain relevant, if we're going to continue to, you know, now I think apply our skills to new systems design, operations, forecasting, decentralized decision making, all those things are the things that I believe are the new creative skills as a result of the Coronavirus. All of that is what's coming out of how you got to pivot because your clients are asking how we're going to pivot, then it's going to be your job to also have an opinion on some of those things. This is the next evolution of all the things that creative people have to learn. In order to stay relevant. I'll give you this one last piece. I literally just days ago finished a class on finance, from Harvard Business School online. I hate Numbers, chapter one in the book, first paragraph, I take you back to NYU when I'm sitting in my statistics class, and I want to somebody shoot me in the face, because it was too much. However, what is my point? I understand that at my altitude, and at my point, like where I'm at in my career, if I don't understand how to talk to other people who do get it. If I don't understand how to ask the right questions, if I don't understand which levers I can pull on my level, then I'm not going to get the business, I'm not going to be chosen, somebody else is going to be chosen. So me taking a finance class 15 $100. Okay, I hate numbers. But I'm going to find the fear. Gonna find the fear just like I did when I was bad at typography. And I said, I'm only going to use type on this particular solution, because I'm going to turn my weaknesses into strengths. And that is the evolution. It's a mindset leading is a verb, and a posture. And as creative people, I believe that we will lead us out of this crazy mess that we're in right now. Whether it's climate change, whether it's our social ills that we're going through right now, this just horrible Asian hate, or just you know, what happened in your area with, you know, people not having access to mental health and just having so many guns, I don't even know why people do what they do, but that the systems need to be redesigned. And relevance and belonging are the questions that we will be judged by. It's bigger than just words, this is how we are going to survive. And I'm hoping that in talking about it in a way that I'm scaling it up, unpacking all the different pieces, connecting these dots on something that's much bigger than just your job, the problems your client has, and you being able to like navigate that stuff. It's much bigger than that. And if we can see it as creative people, as bigger than that, I believe that they're the opportunities there for us to lead. That's what I believe. That's what I believe. Wow. Marc Gutman 49:36 I mean, I believe the same and taking that leadership role. And you know, what I've always loved about this idea of design. So when we take it in a very literal sense, you know, I think of it in terms of graphic design of aesthetics of type and I'm like, I wish I was a designer. I'm not a designer. I love designers. I love being around them. I love being in their spaces. There's every there's something magical about it. But when I really think about what design means to me, it's exactly what you just articulated. It's it's seeing the problems, both the ones in front of us and the ones that that expand out of Yeah, of the the the first maybe insight or initial problem, and then coming up with creative, innovative solutions to solve those problems. And I agree, I think creatives are our only hope right now. And they're going to lead us to, to the new world. And yeah, no dog was on that topic of diversity. I mean, what is the step that creative leaders can take? Besides the the obvious of like, Hey, we need more representation at the table, because I hear that a lot. And I hear people putting energy into it, but I'm not seeing it in the way that you just articulated. And I think that's where we want to get to, you know, no doubt. Douglas Davis 50:56 So I'm gonna be I'm gonna be blunt, like we are in Brooklyn. I think a lot of times when I hear, again, our industry that's built on targeting and messaging and, and like, we get that stuff, but yet there are a lot of people are excluded. Right? as a percentage of the population, you can't understand that stuff. Like that can't be your job, your industry, and yet, we're leaving people out. Right, like, and that's what targeting is right? You not you, you, not you, right. So we're deciding to leave people out. And I like to tell people who asked this question, I think it would come from a really good place who really do want to do something different. Now school, you know, what do we find people can't really find, you know, qualified candidates of color and x y&z. I, my answer to that is that I'm not a black white person. Don't look for me in the same places, and in the same way that you would if you're looking for white person, of course, you can't find me. Of course you can't. I'm not there. You're looking for me as if I was not me. And then when you say, Well, I looked, and I can't No, you didn't look, and you didn't even understand that you're not looking for me. And I think that that's the part that has to be corrected. I also think that we have to rethink the measures of what we've used to determine someone's aptitude or potential, whether it be for leadership or, or carrying a gun, frankly, as a policeman. I think we've got to rethink what we've used to judge someone's worthiness or potential. I took the LSAT probably about three times. And again, I mentioned earlier that my guidance counselor in high school, we never had one conversation about college, not 1/11 grade summer, I said to myself, you know, what, if I don't go to college, I wanted to be because I didn't choose to go versus I couldn't go. So I chose to go to summer school, I chose to finish my foreign language requirements, I chose to take extra math, like get it right, I chose to take the LSAT three times. And in those three times, I got to like a 720, or 780, I can't even remember. But on that measure, Marc, I'm stupid. If I were to let that number, tell me dictate to me what I was and was not capable of in the future, then I'm stupid. And I'm so thankful that that's not how I didn't listen to that, like, What do you know about me? None of these questions were even crafted with me in mind. So of course, I didn't do well. And I'm not just saying that, like, Everything about it is wrong. I am saying though, that we can't measure everybody by the same yardstick. And that doesn't mean that one is better than the other. It just means that there are other ways. And and people learn differently as creative people, you know that we all know that. And yet, we don't apply that to the standard measures that we've always used to gauge someone's potential. And I think that there's something wrong with that. Because, you know, creative people like me, and you can grow up comparing themselves to other people based on those measures, and conclude that something's wrong with them, when they're the ones with the superpowers. You know, and I think that that is something that's really important. We have superpowers and I'm not saying that being able to crunch numbers is not a superpower. It definitely is. But I am also saying that being bad at numbers is an indicator that you might be a creative. Think Overall, we really have to rethink our measures. We've got it and again, this is back to new systems design. This is back to us thinking through what's wrong? And if you if you really look at this right, I love this example. You know, there are more design decisions than there are visually literate people to make them. How do I know this? Well, if on live TV, the best picture is announced lala land and not moonlight because of the card, then that tells me that there was a problem that needed to be solved. There were people around who who had the title and the tools, but who are not visually literate. What is another example, if the wrong Mr. Universe gets crowned on national TV? What is another example if the Supreme Court has to determine who the President is because of the ballot design? What is another, I can keep going all day? Right? So there are more visually, there are more design problems than there are visually literate people to make them. And so again, like I'm back to this place, that we've got to redesign our systems, there's so much broken, and there's so many sort of problems to solve. And, you know, if you're like me, as a creative person, you can't unsee all the work around us. Because there's so many things to redesign. There's so many things to rethink, but I think we can do it. And I think, you know, I was thinking about Okay, so what are the new measures, I would argue that we should have a grid metric, you know, if you don't come from money, the money's not the first thing that you think about to solve a problem. I want that person on my team, because that person had everything but money, that person has creativity, that person is thinking creatively, that person is not just like, yeah, we'll throw XYZ in the budget at the problem. Yeah, we're gonna need money at some point. But if you don't have money, you still got a problem that you got to solve. And, you know, I would much rather have a grip metric, somebody who had to fight through some stuff. In order to get here. I want to know your story. How'd you get here? What do you do when you have more ambition and resources? You know, how did that work? And how, you know, what is your origin story? How did you get here, I can only see you now. You know, and oftentimes, I'm always really, really clear that, yes, I have three Emmys, you know, over my shoulder, and yet, it was not always like that. And so I'm making a point to tell young creators, that it was a struggle, it was a struggle, because I don't want anybody to get the wrong idea. It wasn't always easy. And it's not easy now. And so I think there's so much work to do. There's so many systems that we have to redesign and rethink. And the right people to do that, are you and I want to put another link in the chat that sort of deals with all of this, this sort of social, creative sort of mix that I'm putting together, because I'm looking at this as our competitive advantage as a nation, just like Michel Porter's book, you know, competitive ventures of nations, this is a big problem that if we're not careful, we are going to lose out because there's so much human potential that we don't allow, because of the color of somebody's skin, or because of their gender, or because we're worried about which bathroom, you're going to use stupid stuff that if we could just focus on, you know, how someone's mind would process dealing with this issue. We can be so much farther ahead than we are right now. But we're caught up on stupid things that divide us. And I think that, you know, I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful, especially in this generation, because they grew up in a time where, you know, the only president that they knew was black. But it wasn't even a hurdle that like a black person could be president, right? They grew up in a time where now the vice president as a black woman, who also is, you know, has Asian descent as well, like these MCs, these these barriers that we had, like, you can have same sex unions, like all the stuff that took forever, right? It was just it was here, we had made the progress by the time that they were born. And so I hope that they can do something about the climate. I hope that because of their energy, and because they don't have the same limitations that we had. I hope that their creative problem solving skills that we we get out of the way that we let them apply themselves to these big problems. Because if we, if we're not talking about if we keep talking about logos, we keep talking about like the job, then we're part of the problem because we're not even addressing all the other things that we better start to like attention to. And it you know, it would be embarrassing if I didn't speak out, based on all the things that I had to navigate to even get here. And I think that, that that's just always a really important thing that, you know, I have to touch on those things, things that, you know, may seem, you know, like third rail, but I, you know, I think we have to be more deliberate about closing the gap, the mixed signals that are there between what we say and what the experience is in America, you know, none of us as professionals would advise our client to do the complete opposite of everything hit the brandy, mission statement, and just the who would do that? Who would do that? No, but none of us. And so why do we tolerate it? Why do we tolerate it in society? And I think that again, because that's what we do, we should be the ones leading the conversation about how to make change. And I know that, you know, some people might be listening to like, well, this is outside of the lane of what I do. You know, I'm here to learn about tips and tricks about how to, like, you know, do better my job. And yes, I hear you, you know, I hope that there was something there that you could also listen to, but I also hope that you'll take your superpowers and think about our systems that are broken, they need your skills. That's why I'm talking to you about this, because you're a part of who can fix it, because of your creativity. And so I'm calling out, because, you know, we need a different type of person to go into these other professions, you know, or else we're lost. We're lost. But I'm hopeful. Marc Gutman 1:01:52 In that is Douglas Davis. I've goosebumps as I sit here, goosebumps and a bit like I was just shaken into my senses, that we need to stop talking and start doing that I me, because it starts here must work to close the gap, to open my arms and bring more of the world into the conversation. I hear you, Douglas. There was so much gold in this episode. And I can't wait to get Douglas back on the show. So we can hear his story. As he shared it hasn't been easy. And he's worked his tail off to find success in this industry. I hope you're as excited as I am to hear all about that in the future as well. Inspired by Douglas, I challenge you. What new thing are you going to decide to learn? make a commitment to learning something new, put a flag in the sand. Email us if you're so bold with what it is. I want to know that I'll share it with Douglas as well. We are living in such an exciting time as the story is being written as we live it. We have an incredible opportunity to reinvent ourselves, learn new things and change the world. really change the world. It's our job to reinstate that American mission statement on the Statue of Liberty. I'm up for the challenge. Are you a big thank you to Douglas Davis. You inspire me professionally, personally, and culturally. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, my friend. We will link to all things Douglas Davis, his book Creative Strategy and the Business of Design, imported from Brooklyn, and much more in the show notes. If you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wild story calm. Our best guests like Douglas come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstorm.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. I like big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can't deny. ‍

BGBS 062: Dr. Sarabeth Berk | More Than My Title | What Do You Do??Dr. Sarabeth Berk is the leading expert in hybrid professional identity, and a hybrid professional herself. She was featured in Forbes and is a TEDx speaker, author, and recipient of a Colorado Inno on Fire award for her innovative work. Through a decade of research and coaching, Sarabeth developed a one-of-a-kind approach that takes personal branding to a whole new level. Her hybrid title is Creative Disruptor because she blends her artist/researcher/educator/designer identities together to lead and create innovative strategies that radically connect resources and people in new ways. Sarabeth obtained her PhD from the University of Denver, and has degrees from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago and Rhode Island School of Design. Her background includes directing major initiatives in K-12, higher education, startups, and nonprofits. In this episode, you'll learn…Reflective tips and tricks to start identifying your uniqueness/hybridity How to answer the daunting question of “What do you do?” The benefits of finding your professional hybrid identity to pinpoint who you are at the intersection of your many strengths ResourcesInstagram: @morethanmytitle Facebook: More Than My Title LinkedIn: Sarabeth Berk Website: morethanmytitle.com Quotes[16:03] My entire background has been about interdisciplinarity, and crossing things that are unrelated together, and finding new things at the intersection. So this has always been a heartbeat. And it comes from my creative background. It comes from experimenting with making meaning. I think that's really who I am. [22:48] Your hybridity is your special blend of spices that is unique to you. No one else has combined identities that way and that's what makes you unique and strong in whatever you're doing for work. [26:50] The reason hybridity matters is because when you know the different parts that are important and you know why they fit together, then you know your uniqueness, you know why you're different than all the other “roses” and “fish” and “dogs” because we're all using these generic labels to try and just fit into boxes. Have a Brand Problem? We can help.Book your no-obligation, Wildstory Brand Clarity Call now. Learn about our Brand Audit and Strategy process Identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh Determine if your business has a branding problem See examples of our work and get relevant case studies See if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level Book Your Brand Clarity Call TODAY Podcast TranscriptSarabeth Berk 0:02 And the zone of genius is a place where you're in flow, you're at your best, you're most energized, alive, things are effortless. And in those moments, people were actually explaining without knowing they were saying it, how their parts, their different identities were being activated, if at the same time. So this one teacher was like, you know, I'm being an empath by hearing the problems with my students and giving them guidance and counseling, but I'm also sharing knowledge and also bringing in creativity. And I'm also this and also this. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, that's the intersection. Like, is this really how it works that when we feel our best, and our work, we're in the intersection of our of our work. And I started knowing I was onto something like that was the beginning of a hunch. So I kept checking it out testing it, right. Like I was trying to understand do more people have this too, and sure enough, they do. Marc Gutman 0:58 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big Back stories, and I cannot lie. I am your host Marc Gutman. And on today's episode of Baby Got Back story, I want to know, what do you do? Really? What do you do? If this question gives you pause? Or if you've ever felt anxious at a party or event? When someone asks you, what do you do? And there's no real great way to say it? Not really, then stay tuned, because this episode is for you. And before we get into the show, here's a reminder, if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings they really do as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. And we like ratings. So please go ahead and give us a review. If you like the show. Today's guest is Dr. Sarabeth Berk. In that question. What do you do? was a tough one for her to answer. She did many different things from design to research to innovation. And she never had a good answer to that. That question. I don't know about you. But when I don't have a good answer, I Google for it. Then I maybe read a blog. But Sarabeth, she went full researcher on the question, discovered that work professionals have many different identities and where those identities intersect. Well, that's where the magic happens. Today, Dr. Sarabeth Berk is the leading expert in hybrid professional identity, and a hybrid professional herself. She has been featured in Forbes and is a TEDx speaker, author and the recipient of a Colorado inno on fire Award for her innovative work. Sarabeth's hybrid title is Creative Disruptor because she blends her artist, researcher, educator designer identities together to lead and create innovation strategies that radically Connect resources and people in new ways. Sarabeth obtained her PhD from the University of Denver, and has degrees from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, in the Rhode Island School of Design, so she knows what she's talking about. Her background includes directing major initiatives in K through 12, higher education, startups and nonprofits. And this is her hybrid story. I'm here with Sara Berk, the Creative Disruptor at More Than My Title, Sara, thanks for coming on the show. And let's get right into it. What is a Creative Disruptor? Sarabeth Berk 4:10 Hey, Marc, thanks for having me. Ah, the Creative Disruptor question. Well, essentially, I didn't know what to call myself. I was more than my job title. And I did all this work, which we can talk about reflecting on like, Who am I really like, what do I want to be called? And I noticed I'm a person that challenges and pushes and changes information because I see it differently. And that was like that disrupter inside of me. But then also, I'm super creative. I come from an art background. And I'm always like visually, orienting things and making sense of like pictures and images. And I was like, I'm not just a disrupter. I'm like really creative and how I do it because I am like playing with tools and using design. And that's me in a nutshell, like that term is my identity in my work. And that's why I call myself a Creative Disruptor. I'm changing things for the good. Marc Gutman 5:10 Yeah, so thank you. And I neglected when I introduced you to, I forgot that you are Dr. Sarabeth Berk. And then I think that's relevant. That's important. We'll talk about that. Because you're a researcher, and an academic. And a lot of what we're talking about is rooted in that research and that background. But you, you started that with saying, I didn't know what to call myself, like, why did that even matter? What why was that coming up as a problem for you like what was happening in your life where not knowing what to call yourself was an issue? Sarabeth Berk 5:42 Marc, I don't know how many parties you've been to, or networking events. But ultimately, everyone says, Hey, what do you do? Hey, nice to meet you. What do you do? And this, what do you do? Question plagued me, it really became the bane of my existence. Because I got super anxious. I was in a space in my life, where I wasn't really secure in what my career was and what I was doing for work. I was finding myself and going through, like a job search career transition process. So I didn't have an answer to that question. Like something solid, where I was like, yeah, I'm Sarabeth. I'm the blah, blah, blah. So when I was struggling with how to answer that question, I finally realized I was having an identity crisis, I have like, literally didn't know who I was. And that, to me launched this whole series of events where I got really curious on Who am I like, I'm not what people are calling me. I'm not just a teacher or designer. Like, there's something else here. And I really wanted to figure that out. Marc Gutman 6:40 This idea and the word that you just used in that story about identity? And has that's been something you've always been interested in, like when you were growing up, were you, you might not have used those words, you might not have framed it as identity. But Was that something that that always either perplexed, confused or interested you? Sarabeth Berk 7:01 I, I would say no, like, this isn't something that was on my mind for years and years, it's something that I realized was the root problem. I was circling around, but I never had a name for it. Like when I was trying to figure out what I was doing after college and how to build my career. The advice I often got from people as well figure out what you're passionate about, like, let's let's talk about what your strengths, let's figure out, you know, what you love to do and make your work fit that. So it was always about the what do you do and why? And how are you going to do it? No one ever stopped and asked me about who are you like, Who do you think you are? Like, what do you call yourself? That's a different question. So this notion of identity came to me much later, because I realized, we were talking about something we weren't really talking about, like there's another piece of the puzzle that was missing. Marc Gutman 7:56 And so that's interesting. Let's talk about that. So when you were growing up, what was your identity? Like? What did you think? Your let me rephrase? Who were you at the time? And then where would you think you're gonna end up doing? What were you hoping to do? Sarabeth Berk 8:07 Yeah, I mean, I was this perfect student, I was the straight a girl. I loved academics and art, that was really what I was up to. And so my identity for you know, the first 20 some years of my life was student, you know, like, you are a student. That's what people tell you. And then you graduate high school or college or wherever you finish your degree, and you lose that identity. And literally, that's when I dropped into my first identity crisis. But people told me Oh, you're just burned out? Or, oh, you know, you're just going through like a quarterlife crisis or something. No one ever said, you are having this identity moment. And so that first transition of going from student to Well, what am I now Who am I now? And then trying to figure out like, okay, who's gonna hire me? Like, I don't even know how to take my degree and turn it into a job. I was a ski instructor after I graduated. Because I literally was like, where do I start. And then I eventually went back to grad school got a degree in art and design, when it's a classroom worked for some nonprofits, and boom, then I felt a little more secure. Because what we usually do in society is you define yourself by your job. So when you're in a job, you have security around your identity, you're like, Oh, I'm Joe, the marketing manager, and I'm Sally, the coder and like you just have this sense of who you are based on what you do, because we spend the majority of our lives in our jobs. And literally research says that when you lose a loved one, go through divorce or lose a job. Those are the three biggest moments where you lose a sense of yourself. And I until you go through that you don't realize how powerful you associate yourself with the thing you're doing. So that was a little bit of how I started noticing I was having an identity crisis is when I lost it. Marc Gutman 9:55 Yeah. And what I heard there is that like this idea of our identity and our identity changing and even being between identities. It's, it's not something like that happens just once it doesn't just happen, you know, between our 20, you know, matriculating from through college to the working world, it can happen a lot of different times. And I think that, you know, at least my self, you know, I think about, like, how I approach it. Like, I feel guilty about that, or I feel like I'm doing something wrong, or and you and I have talked about this, I feel like shame that like, I don't know how to identify, identify myself. Did you experience that at all? While while you were going through that transition? Sarabeth Berk 10:35 100%? Yes. I mean, there's so much wrapped up, I felt like a failure, I thought, vulnerable, full of guilt, my self worth my self confidence. We're just all in the pits. I really was just like, I felt lost and confused. It's a dissociative moment is what like psychology would say, and you just feel disconnected because you don't know. Like, like your roots anymore. Your your foundation got taken from you. And so it's a process of rebuilding and reinventing and finding yourself again. And I think it's part of growth. I think life, like you just mentioned, puts us through these tests at different times. It's not just once, I'm actually going through my fourth identity crisis right now. Like I've mapped them, and I'm on four right now. So they keep coming. Marc Gutman 11:24 Yeah. And the Pro, the the leading expert, I hybridity and identity crisis is going through an identity crisis, which is great. You know, it's like, it's this isn't like exclusively to other people. And so it's something that we all go through. And so were you originally from Colorado? No, I was born on the east coast and Pennsylvania. And my family wanted to be in the West. They love the mountains. So I moved out to Colorado when I was in elementary school. Right. And then I want to go back to that moment when you were a ski instructor. So you wanted to be a ski instructor. Like, tell me about that? Like, what what was that? Like? Sarabeth Berk 12:01 You know, I saw I graduated from undergrad I was in Chicago at the time I came back home to be with my parents. Everything just fell off kilter. And I became a barista at a coffee shop. And that was like the fall season. And I had done some summer camp, teaching with like people that were ski instructors, because I grew up in the Roaring Fork Valley by Aspen and Snowmass. So I had some contacts in the ski industry. And sure enough, I called them up and said, what does it take to be a Scottish doctor and they said, Come on down, apply, we're hiring. And I made it as a rookie that year. So it was really just kind of going with the flow of life. But it was really good for me, because I, as I mentioned, I was so academic, when your ski instructor, it's really about safety of the kids First, we always said the order is safety, fun, and then learning. And a lot of it was just letting go of structure and homework and research and like deep thinking it was like, go just be like have a job. That's so much about enjoying life and meeting people and going skiing with kids all day. It was great. Marc Gutman 13:12 Yeah. And so this is so interesting to me. So you and I've met recently, and certainly, the identity I know about you is, you know, an expert on hybridity and this topic of being, you know, trying to find, you know, how do I talk about myself, but like, when I look at your bio, this is kind of funny to me, because you and I did an event together. And I was super impressed with how like, you're cranking out these these beautiful design assets and all this stuff. I was like, Wow, that's really good. This, I didn't realize that and I feel silly, because you always refer to yourself as an academic and you talk a lot about academics and, and research. And that's, that's how I categorize you. That's how I see you and your identity. But you have this crazy background where you went to the Art Institute of Chicago and risk D, the Rhode Island School of Design, like, talk to me a little bit about that because just even that like you, you started saying like I was really into academics, academics, but you're also really you were like a very serious like art student like how, like, talk me through that a little bit. Sarabeth Berk 14:18 Yeah, I mean, I was a wallflower in high school, I need to go back to that moment. But my my creative outlet was art class, I always needed to take art every semester and I fell in love with my high school art teacher just because she was such an inspiration and just opened my eyes to like mediums and ideas I never seen. Like she didn't let me get into senior studio, which is like the pinnacle of the high school experience because that was only for the most talented students. So I had this sense that I actually wasn't good enough. So I tried to like focus on something more academic in college but eventually noticed. I love graphic design. I love interior design. I love drawing In painting, and I actually loved book art, I thought I wanted to be a book artists like paper making and bookbinding. And I said, screw it. I had started at one university, and I transferred and went to art school because that was such a deep desire that kept calling me. So I picked a major in my undergrad that was actually 50/50 art and critical thinking, like I took any studio major I wanted, I didn't have to focus on one, screen printing, puppetry fashion design, letterpress printing, I was all over the map. And then I was going into these classes, one was called trans modalities. And the professor Joseph Greg Lee, he's actually deaf. And so he would talk to us about, he could speak but he had a translator about things like, how do you know the taste of a cigar, or the taste of wine when it's written down on these cards, and my brain was going crazy with like making sense of translating information from one modality to another. And yet I'm doing these art forms where I'm doing mixed media practice. So my entire background has been about interdisciplinarity, and crossing things that are unrelated together, and finding new things at the intersection. So this has always been a heartbeat. And it comes from my creative background. It comes from experimenting with making meaning I think that's really who I am. Marc Gutman 16:23 That's great. And thank you so much for sharing that. And so, you know, you went to the arts to Chicago, you went to RisD like it, what point did you then start to think, Hey, I'm gonna like research this whole question of who am I and how do I talk about myself? Because I, you know, it's one thing to be like, oh, I've got this problem. And I don't like going to cocktail parties. And people say, what do you do? And I don't, you know, and maybe you'd read some books. But you went a little further like, like, why? Like, why, like, what, how did that all transpire? And what drove you to really dive deep into the subject? Sarabeth Berk 16:59 I think I started to feel like I was compartmentalizing myself. So I was in the classroom teaching art. And I got her crossroads, I knew I was ready to do more. I wanted to have leadership, I wanted to transform education, like I'm a person that wants to blow shit up and create new school systems. And like, you know, universities, k 12. None of it's working. Let's start over. I'm an innovator that goes back to the disrupter too. And in order to do that, I needed people to see me as more than an art teacher like that was how people saw me serve if you teach art, and I was like I do. But I'm also actually on the side creating websites. And over here I'm making and selling art on Etsy. And, oh, I'm starting to learn about research because I was taking grad school on the side. And in order to leave the classroom, I started applying to jobs that weren't teaching jobs. And in my cover letter, I noticed I started writing, I'm Sarabeth, and I'm an artist slash educator slash designer, I started using slashes. Because I needed people to see I have different sides to myself, because the teacher part was so strong and dominant. And by putting slashes, I was like, well, it's not a comma. It's not an and I'm like, I'm all of this mashed together. I don't know how else to grammatically write it for people to see, like what I'm trying to explain. So that was me, like, I don't know if you've heard of the slash movement. But that's like a thing people use. There's also like the multi hyphen, people that put dashes. So I was already feeling that in myself, I just didn't know, other people did this, too. And then I got to grad school, I decided to work on my doctorate full time, and I was working in an entrepreneurship creativity program on the side. And it was in my doctoral program where I really felt like, I just don't know who I am anymore. Like, I'm not just a teacher. And yet, what am I? And then I learned from honestly, the race, class and gender studies class, about intersectionality, that you actually are the sum of the intersection of all your different identities. And it was like, that's interesting. Yeah, of course, I'm white, middle class woman, and blah, blah, blah, like all these identities, but what about my professional identity? Like I had this moment where I said, Can I ask that question? Just in the professional side of my life? Like, are there intersections between being an artist, designer, teacher, researcher, that became my research question. So because I was in a doctoral program where we're learning to think and act this way, and we're doing quantifiable research, I needed to pick a research topic. So it all kind of dived in that moment of like, my personal pain, the work I was learning to do, and then this curiosity that formed and then so as you as you got interested in this, like, what did you find? Yeah, it was like, where do we start with this? I couldn't go around and ask people like, what are your intersections? Like, how do you see intersectionality Marc in your work because this was like two weird of a question that even i had never been asked before i didn't know how to answer it. so i started a case study of like five different individuals that i followed and observed and interviewed about their work because i thought am i just experiencing this or other people and how do i have a study around that and so i went and started talking to individuals about okay your title is blank you know this thing but what do you really do in that job and very quickly i started hearing people explain the different parts of themselves and then the theme that i started getting across all these interviews and observations was moments when people are just in their zone of genius you and i've talked about that before i love this this discussion and the zone of genius is a place where you're in flow you're at your best you're most energized alive things are effortless and in those moments people were actually explaining without knowing they were saying it how their parts their different identities were being activated if at the same time so this one teacher was like you know i'm being an empath by hearing the problems of my students and giving them guidance and counseling but i'm also sharing knowledge and i'm also bringing in creativity and i'm also this one also this and i was like oh my gosh that's the intersection like is this really how it works that when we feel our best and our work we're in the intersection of our of our work and i started knowing i was on to something like that was the beginning of the hunch so i kept checking it out testing it right like i was trying to understand do more people have this too and sure enough they do. Marc Gutman 21:37 so this is really interesting to me and something that i don't think we've really talked about so i didn't realize that effectively and correct me because i'm going to i'm going to kind of make a statement here that hybridity or that the spirit of it is really looking for that intersection and when you're at your best at work do i have that right so that that's really what we're talking about here? Sarabeth Berk 21:59 Yeah so my focus that i described today currently is hybrid professional identity that as humans we are already hybrid we're a combination of all kinds of identities social personal political everything but i just examine the vein of your professional life and what you do for your work and when people say i do marketing oh but i also do sales and i also do events oh and i'm good at design i'm good at this suddenly you start to hear all the elements all the parts of them and what i've learned is that there's a hybrid space in the professional side of people's life that they don't know how to articulate the best way i heard this explained yesterday with someone i was talking to you she says it's your special blend like when you have all those spices and you combine your spice drawer to make something your hybridity is your special blend of spices that is unique to you no one else has combined identities that way and that's what makes you unique and strong in whatever you're doing for work Marc Gutman 23:03 a common question i get all the time is Marc, can you help me with our brand? yes we help companies solve branding problems and the first step would be to schedule a no obligation brand clarity call we'll link to that in the show notes or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email we'll get you booked right away so whether you're just getting started with a new business or whether you've done some work and need a refresh or whether you're a brand that's high performing and wants to stay there we can help after you book your brand clarity call you'll learn about our brand audit and strategy process will identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh will determine if your business has a branding problem and you'll see examples of our work and get relevant case studies we'll also see if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level so what are you waiting for build the brand you've always dreamed of again we'll link to that in the show notes or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email now back to the show. So when you— that's really interesting to me like that you have all these special ingredients that become your your hybridity like like i get that like we want to activate what makes us special but like why is it so important that we're focused on this like like why why does it matter? Sarabeth Berk 24:41 totally yeah. i'm gonna reflect it back to you for a second and say Marc, when you tell people you do branding or your you have a brand agency Wildstory like don't a lot of people do that like why do they come to you? Marc Gutman 24:56 They do and you know i'm really this is really a question because i've struggled with this most people come to us because of our background in storytelling and things like that but i spent a lot of years talking about that like i'm a storyteller i you know this and that we're storytelling agency and it wasn't exactly leaning into the the idea of hybridity and what you do but what i did find is really confusing to a lot of people you know and they you know and so they didn't get they didn't get that and they meant different things to different people and so you know from a linguistic standpoint i've really gone back and forth on this topic and i've really thought about like do you use words that are already a schema that people understand to like have them understand what you do and then kind of talk about this idea of why or what makes us special or do you lead with that? And so you know again i'd love to know like why so i guess what you're saying and when you when you put it back on me is it matters because it helps you stand out and it helps you to differentiate but i mean have you experienced any of that yourself? Like where it becomes like a little bit like do you do you follow the norms and say i'm a marketer or do you say or you know do you say i'm a you know something else? Sarabeth Berk 26:16 This is exactly what i've been looking at i've been doing it more on a personal like human level and i think you do it more for businesses and organizations i think the dilemma is pretty much the same essentially yes as humans our brains want to make sense of things we categorize things we label them so that we have that schema of understanding like this is a rose and that's a dog that's a horse but you know shakespeare said a rose by any other name would smell a sweet right like we just gave it that name to give it a name. So essentially, the reason hybridity matters is because when you know the different parts that are important like those special ingredients and you know why they fit together then you know your your uniqueness you know why you're different than all the other roses and fish and dogs because we're all using these generic labels to try and just fit into boxes like you do marketing and you do branding and i do research but then the question is what kind like what kind of branding do you really do and who do you do for and how are you different and what makes you unique? So the hybridity is articulating in a clear way that isn't confusing this is it. This is why we stand out and you can point to it now i still think the notion of hybridity is that it defies language like that is literally one of the things i found in the research when you're in the intersection of multiple things so my primary identities are being an artist, researcher designer, and educator that i put into a venn diagram and then i go okay who am i at the middle of that venn diagram there is no one right or wrong way to name that it's up to me but once i do i sort of give myself a new label and then the way that i help people understand sir about the Creative Disruptor because that's my hybrid title is i say i work at the intersection of being an artist researcher designer and educator which then enables me to radically create innovation strategies and systems for organization and people. and that like three part That's my intro essentially is a give a hybrid title which is my unique label i break it down into the parts because that's what's familiar people know what those parts are but then i describe the relationship of how those parts fit together which is the meaning like why i do it how i'm being an artist educator designer what's the point of that in the world so by giving an explanation of that degree it really actually changes the way people see me they're like they hear my name they see my parts and then they see this is her definition of herself and that's different than all the other artists and educators and researchers we've ever met it's a unique combination i think businesses need that too right like what are the parts and services of what they do and why do they do those things together what what is the relationship between the things and then you start to find those hybrid spaces Marc Gutman 29:23 absolutely and i love that explanation that definition thanks for clarifying that because that to me that makes a lot more sense that you know a bit of the process is to to do the internal workings for you you know it's not necessarily external at first and then it's about it's about helping create that definition and that translation for the external world of like hey this is what my title means and so yeah that makes total sense i love it and and i think that's great and so as you're going through all this research and you were like aha like all right there's this intersectionality like we don't define language like, that's all cool. But like, are you then like, like, what do you do with it? You're like, Okay, I've got this thing. Like, like, now what? Sarabeth Berk 30:10 It's like you're reading my mind. Marc Gutman 30:11 Yeah, this great discovery like you've discovered something amazing! Now what? Sarabeth Berk 30:17 I mean, at the time, I didn't really know if I had discovered anything amazing to me. I thought it was like the best thing I'd ever found. But I didn't know if anybody else cared, right? It's sort of when you invent something, and then you're like, but now what? So essentially, that became my dissertation. So it became this huge document that, you know, maybe 100 people on the world have read. And then it went dormant. Because what was happening was, I was getting more comfortable with being a hybrid, like, I had to own it, and walk into it and live it right? you, you can talk about it, but then it's another thing to be it. And I didn't have the confidence yet. I was like, people are gonna think I'm crazy. If I say I'm Sarabeth, I'm a hybrid. And they'd be like, What are you talking about? So it took me a few years, and I needed that time to socialize and do more observation with more people. Like, I started just networking for my own work, because I was doing innovation strategy with K 12 schools at the time, I'd have coffee meeting, and I was meeting people in the community. And I'd learned about them, and what do they do? And slowly but surely, again, and again, I was noticing people are more than their job titles, they have all these different parts. And they're not good at identifying which parts are the most important to them, nor are they good at explaining how those parts fit together. So I kept seeing the same issues and other people I met. And I would throw it out there and say, you know, have you ever thought you might be a hybrid? And people would be like, what, like, What are you talking about? And then I'll explain a little, and then go, Wow, that's that is me. That's, that makes a lot of sense. So I was validating, it's like any entrepreneur, when you have a new product, like do people want this, does it mean anything to them. And so after a couple of years of that I knew in my heart, I wanted to write a book someday about this. And then getting these stories and more, you know, understanding of how this looked in the world, it helps me find my voice. And it helped me start to see the shape of how do I need to explain this to the mainstream public because I wasn't in the university land anymore. And so that's what I did, I decided to write a book. And honestly, I didn't have a vision. After that, I was like, I'll write the book, and then see what happens. And literally, I published the book came out April 2020. The title of the book is More Than My Title, the power of hybrid professionals, and a workforce of experts in generalists. And the fact that I'd use the term hybrid professional. At the same year, the world was going through a pandemic, and everything was becoming hybridize, work and learning and the events and like all sectors, it was really a moment of just serendipity that I was already thinking about this, and the world started talking about it. So that it's led to a number of interesting conversations. Because Another thing I want to bring up, I didn't know that you can tell me how much you know about it is category creation. Category creation, from what I've learned is when you invent a whole new type of product that the market didn't know they need it. So they're not searching for it yet, like athleisure. That's my favorite example. like nobody knew they needed athletic apparel that could be worn outside and exercised in but now it's everywhere. Yeah. And so hybrid professionals, and hybrid professional identity is a new category of workers, and a new way of thinking about the workforce. And so people aren't searching for this. So the adjacent ways people are still talking about it, is personal branding, and career development. And then the academics that identity research piece. So I'm living in a zone of joining conversations in those other circles, showing them and getting them to think about, don't you mean, hybridity? Aren't we talking about identity here? Like? How does that factor into your career development and the way you brand yourself like that, to me is now how I'm bringing this idea into the world. Yeah, and I think that like, even this idea of personal branding, I mean, for me, like it was kind of an icky word couple years ago, it's like who? personal branding. But it's almost like now to be a modern professional, you have to brand yourself personally, whether you're an entrepreneur, whether you're an executive, I mean, you have this identity, to your point, outside of your title. And people are looking to that to be like, well, what else are you talking about? What else are you thinking about? How are you putting your own interesting perspective on the world? And so that that's also just this other kind of thing that's intersecting with this, this time that you're in right now and why hybridity is so Marc Gutman 35:00 So relevant and so cool. And so you wrote a book, like, what was that? Like? I mean, did you it's not an easy process. And you're in, you know, you've just written a huge dissertation, not just but you've written a huge dissertation. So you've already spent some time in the sort of the ooey, gooey middle of this topic. And then you decide to write a book. I mean, did you have doubts as you're writing that book that anyone was even going to be interested or care about this topic? Sarabeth Berk 35:29 Oh, my gosh, the journey to the book was really interesting. Because I, if you hadn't noticed, I'm the high achiever overachiever. Like I set a goal for myself, and I go for it. And I literally just accomplish it. I don't just talk about things I do. Um, and so I gave myself a year after finishing grad school, to take a break. And then I was like, I'm gonna start writing the book. And I didn't know what I was doing. And every Sunday I was forcing myself to sit down and log hours. And it was painful. Because what I didn't see at the time, I just, I didn't know it yet. Like, I didn't know what I was trying to write and say, Yeah, I hadn't found it. So after a few months of just putting myself through the ropes, I stopped and laid it down. I think I also got distracted by work projects. And my other goal at that point was, I need a book agent, right? Like, I need a literary agent to be a serious author. I'm not going to self publish. So I took a little bit of time trying to send proposals and get an agent and I got some bites. But I learned quickly, it's about the size of your audience. They're like, how many followers do you have? How big is your email list, your Instagram, all of that. And I didn't have a presence yet. And they said, come back to us when you have x 1000. It was like 10 or 20,000, it was pretty high. So I was feeling defeated. And I kept talking to more authors. How did you do it? What did you do, and it's just a really crazy journey. It's one of the most opaque industries on how you publish books. And everyone's story was different. Essentially, you either self publish, or you get a giant house like Penguin Random House. And somewhere in the middle is independent publishing, which is actually called hybrid publishing. So long story short, I found a woman who is in the independent publishing world, she became a book coach for me. By the time I found her, I had validated and had a lot more confidence, I'd done a TEDx. I gotten asked to do some big speaking. In those speaking engagements, I was talking about this idea to audiences that I had no touch points with right there were cold. So I was starting from scratch with them. And by the end, they were just blown away, like the comment I get the most is, my mind is blown right now. And to me, that meant Wow, this was a really impactful idea that I'm sharing, then. So the questions they started asking me things like, Well, how do you figure this out? How do I do this myself? What are the Venn diagrams? How do I look at the intersections that started giving me the fuel of these are the questions I need to write about in the book, this is what people want to know. And this is how they want to know it, I just need to find the best way to share it. So suddenly, I had a lot more inspiration, I knew my audience, I had this book coach, the writing the book, honestly, Marc, I did it in four to five months, like I started around Thanksgiving of 2019. I have the manuscript, final draft by like February, because I was aiming to polish by April. So it was like, that's what happened. Marc Gutman 38:26 That's a good experience and once you're aligned, that it all happened. And so when you think about this topic, and you think about people who are struggling with this idea, are intrigued by this idea, or their minds are just they're listening to this for the first time, and their minds are blown, as you say, what, like, what's the first step they can take? Like? What's the like? What's something someone can do to start to explore this further? Sarabeth Berk 38:51 Yeah, no, great question. Because I do have a whole process, right? Um, the first thing is really to start with where you are right now, current state, what do you call yourself? What do other people call you? What are your kids call you, your friends, like notice all these different ways you're being labeled, and the names you're using? Then you start to brainstorm a list of all those different identities. And it's really important to know that identities and actions are different. So when you ask someone, what do you do, they start telling you actions like I do some marketing and branding, I help people I mentor, a coach on the side. Those are all actions. So convert that back to an identity. Who are you when you do that thing? Just because people are doing marketing or helping with branding? Do they call themselves a marketer? Are they a brander? And sometimes it's one to one they're like, yes, of course, when I do marketing, I am a marketer. And other times are like, actually, when I'm doing this branding thing, I'm I'm more of an i via navigator, or I'm a wayfinder or I'm I'm crystallizing, I'm a catalyst. So you realize there's other identities you are that you're not showing or talking about if that makes sense so it's really the first step is taking an inventory and doing a really big brainstorm on all the identities you're showing up with and that you're using and then the next big step is to narrow down you go through and you see which identities i call them are your primary and which are your non primary or like really like your secondary tertiary and the biggest difference between primary and non primary is your primary ones are the ones you use most frequently like every day because they bring you joy you feel alive they're the expertise you want to be known for. For me it's the artist researcher educator designer like that is my core foundation of course i'm still doing like graphic design and event planning and these other things but i don't use those every day and that's not my best identity so you look at your brainstorm list and then narrow it to your primary ones and you have to have at least two to be a hybrid right like two identities combined will make one intersection three identities is sort of the sweet spot i think three is what most people are usually in for is the upper limit if you have more than four primary identities you've got to keep narrowing because there's just too many intersections so that is the beginning of this work the second part i call investigating the intersections that is where things get really hard like time and again that's where people struggle because it is literally a space if that's unconscious and you've never thought of who am i in my intersections like that's a whole different conversation we need to have. Marc Gutman 41:41 love it thank you i feel like that's that's so actionable and you know you talk about struggle i mean like what's hard about it you know like what were what is hard for everyone to wrap their minds around like what don't we know about this this whole hybridity thing? Sarabeth Berk 41:59 Yeah well let me play with that with you for a second if i walked up to you and said hey Marc, tell me how you're unique how are you unique in your work ready go like what would you say? Marc Gutman 42:09 Well i would say there's a whole list of things so i think that'd be my first challenge you know there'd be like it but then there's also this thing i don't like talking about myself you know and i don't like in that way you know and saying these are the things and i don't know if you encountered that a lot but like these are the things i'm good at like it's it's truly hard for me to to say that and i encounter a lot of people that also struggle with it but that's me personally. i don't know if that holds up in your experience as well. Sarabeth Berk 42:38 i would just say like rule of thumb the majority of people if they were confronted and asked in this moment to explain how they're unique and different in whatever they do they would either a kind of like draw a blank like be caught off guard i don't know i need a moment b they would be unsure they'd be like i it's hard to describe or like i know i am unique but like how do i put it into words or the the other one is just your uniqueness is it's just it's like the wrong way to approach this because like you need tools to see yourself and to be able to read oh i know what i was gonna say the third one is they get to general they'll say something like i'm really good at problem solving like my superpower is asking really great questions and it's like what does that even mean right? Like these are really broad things like everyone says they're good at problem solving i'll be honest i hear that a lot so the trick that i use and this is another strategy i have it's called your first best or only. and so instead of approaching it with where are you unique which is ultimately what we're trying to suss out in finding your intersections and your hybridity. If you look at yourself and go okay where have i been the first on something like the first project i did the first client i landed the first it started a new process it could be on a team or in a company or the best like you were the top in your group the top in a region and the only you were one of a kind no one else has even done this thing yet right pull out those stories try and get like one per category and that will start to reveal this is you in a moment of uniqueness so i was like the first to launch and lead this innovation ecosystem around early childhood wow okay so let me break that down what was i doing who was i in that moment to do that thing what identities were showing up when i was in that first moment if you so going into my research hat for a moment there's a notion of triangulation what triangulation means is when you're collecting data if you only have one data point you don't know what that means, if it's good or bad and if you have two data points then one might be good one might be bad so you don't know which it is but if you have a third it's the tiebreaker right it's like okay two of them are good or two are bad so you know you're leaning more this direction. that's how it goes, I think in learning about your hybridity. So if you can think of three stories that represent your first best or only, then you can start to say which identity showed up in story number one, which identities are number two, which are number three, and you start to look for identities that are consistent across these moments to figure out, Oh, those are the identities that are really true to me, like these are the ones I'm using the most. And they're important. And that is just one way to start to find your uniqueness. There's a lot of tools and tricks I use in this work, because this is a very deeply reflective process. I did a crash course this weekend with individuals and one of the participants that if the best he said, Sarabeth, this work, is like feeling muscles you didn't know you had after a really hard workout. Like I start asking people questions they have literally never been asked before. And that's why their minds are blown. They're like, Oh, my head hurts. And I have to give them a break. Like we can't do the whole thing in a day or in an hour. It's kind of broken into segments. And this is why, I'm literally making you step out of yourself. Like it's metacognition like watching what you're doing, and who you are, when you're doing it, to start to see patterns and start to truly notice what specifically you're doing that other people don't do, which then creates that recipe back to the ingredients of who you are in your hybridity. Marc Gutman 46:28 I don't think I'm supposed to ask you this. Because probably like, children, you're not supposed to say your favorite hybrid titles. But could you share a couple of your favorites that you've either helped to bring out of people or they just have have come your way? Like, what are some of your favorite titles that we can leave the audience with? Sarabeth Berk 46:51 Yeah, no, totally. It's a great, great, great question. And I think examples are really important. So I'm so glad you asked. So yeah, it's not a bad question. One gentleman I got to work with. He was describing himself as a project manager, essentially. And he was unhappy with with his work and just felt like not all the parts of him were being used. So we went through this journey and unpacked and by the end of it, he realized he was really the tension methodologist. He was balancing energy and projects or resources, and he was managing tension, but he had a methodology to it. And he's like, That is me the tension methodologist. Someone else I worked with, she is the methodical Weaver of wonder. She's really good at pulling visions out and weaving them together. And she again, has a really special way she does it. this other guy, he's the human hitmaker, someone else call themselves a serial adju agitator. He was merging two words education and agitator together. And another one is the spiritual sparkplug. Those are a few off the top my head. Marc Gutman 47:57 I love it. I love it. Well, where can our listeners learn more about you and dive deeper on this topic? We'll make sure to link to everything in the show notes. But why don't you go ahead and let people know where they can learn more about how to how to like, kind of dive deeper on this topic. Sarabeth Berk 48:12 Yeah, I would love that. So I'm on clubhouse a lot. So I hope to see you in rooms there if you are. But MoreThanMyTitle.com is my website, all kinds of goodies and freebies, a lot of tools, like the word list is up there and Venn diagrams. And then I'm on Instagram at @MoreThanMyTitle as well. And I just started doing some LinkedIn live so people can see me, I'm really talking to people about their stories of being hybrid. So I'm a little bit of everywhere, like you. Marc Gutman 48:39 Awesome. And as we come to a close here, Sarabeth, I want you to think back to that, as you described it the the wallflower version of you in high school. And you know that that version of you that was told that you weren't good enough to get into that art program. And, you know, if she were able to see you today, what do you think she'd say? Sarabeth Berk 48:59 I mean, my first reaction is all like just really a lot of surprise and shock. Because this, this is something I would have never ever ever envisioned on myself. There's no way. I don't know where it came from still like, I think I've surprised myself a lot. Yeah, great question. Marc Gutman 49:23 And that is Dr. Sarabeth Berk, Creative Disruptor at More Than My Title. I've often struggled with fitting in and how to describe myself. That, in Sarabeth's words, there was no language for the intersections of my identities. Hearing Sarabeth's insights and methodologies has allowed me to see myself in a different light, and I hope it's helped you as well. I also loved your actionable teaching, especially the first best only exercise. I'll be working on that one this weekend over a journal and some coffee. A big thank you to Dr. Sarabeth Berk and the More Than My Title team. We will link to all things Sarabeth and More Than My Title in the show notes. If you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wildstory.com. Our best guests like Sarabeth come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode a lot big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can't deny Transcribed by https://otter.ai ‍

BGBS 061: Beau Haralson | ScaleThat | Find YOUR Success In Its Season Beau Haralson has over a decade of experience launching products and building brands both big and small including Google, Traffic & Conversion, DigitalMarketer, OfficeMax, and many others. Over the years he's worked with celebrities such as Lebron James and Arnold Schwarzenneger, and entrepreneurs that deserve to be celebrities, doubling over 15 businesses along the way. 

As the co-founder of ScaleThat, Beau is the creative force behind all campaigns that ScaleThat Select works with. He regularly consults for brands and speaks surrounding his unique approach to marketing strategy, campaign architecture, and generating traffic and conversions predictably. In this episode, you'll learn… Be patient and pursue things fully, but don't pursue them all at once. You can have your definition of success in its own season. We think that our career and worldview have to be binary and put in a box, but there is so much we can do and learn in one lifetime. Get comfortable trying new things—you never know what you'll find. Small brands may want to be big, but big brands want to be small. A small brand's greatest advantage is that they're nimble and able to create amazing relationships early on. Big brands study that! Resources Instagram: @beauharalson Website: scalethat.com Quotes [31:40] I think success is iterative. I think that people think success is like, “Man, if I could just buy a Lamborghini one day…” That would be the marker of success for some people and that's great. If that motivates you, fast cars are cool, I get it, go for it. But I think like your definition of success can change every six months if it needs to. [38:17] I wanted to be a great husband and be a great dad. And if I had to be a “good businessman”, that was okay. I'd rather not be a great businessman and a good husband and a good dad, or maybe potentially a bad dad because I run out of hours. [44:15] A lot of people want success now and they define it in a certain way. But I think you can be patient and have your definition of success in its own season. Have a Brand Problem? We can help. Book your no-obligation, Wildstory Brand Clarity Call now. Learn about our Brand Audit and Strategy process Identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh Determine if your business has a branding problem See examples of our work and get relevant case studies See if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level Book Your Brand Clarity Call Today Podcast Transcript Beau Haralson 0:02 And it all felt complicated at the time. But like, in hindsight, he was right, right, like life does have a propensity to get a little bit more complicated as you go on. I still encourage people that are that have that call to entrepreneurship, no matter the life stage, but but I'm glad I took the dive then. And you're right. It was admittedly scary at that time. I think I remember the first time I got like a 15 $100 check from our first client. And I felt like it was like, This is crazy. Just like felt so real to me. So scary. And then I was like, well, like, would I get the check to, you know? Just like it all gets real. Like, oh, yeah, there's no departments for anything. There we go. Marc Gutman 0:50 podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Back story podcast. we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory. We were talking with Beau Harrelson, the co founder and brand strategist at Scale That and dedicated parent that the Harrelson family. Before we get into the show, here's a not so gentle reminder. If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify. Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Today's guest is Beau Haralson. Beau has over a decade of experience launching products and building brands both big and small, including Google traffic and conversion, digital marketer, Office Max and many others. Over the years, he's worked with celebrities such as LeBron James and Arnold Schwarzenegger, and entrepreneurs that deserve to be celebrities, doubling over 15 businesses along the way. Beau is the creative force behind all campaigns that Scale That works with and is regularly consulted surrounding his unique approach to marketing strategy, campaign architecture in generating traffic and conversions predictably. But what is really fascinating about Beau, is his decision to put family first and build a company in life that supports that. A little side note, if you would have asked nine year old Marc what name he wished his parents would have chosen for him. They would have been Beau, inspired by Beau and Luke Duke fame. But I always wanted to be a Beau. Let's get back to today's Beau. Beau Haralson talks about working on the now famous of yourself campaign with officemax what big brands really want, and how small brands can compete in this is his story. I am here with Beau Haralson, the co founder and CEO of Scale That Beau, thanks for coming on. And let's get right to it. We're both digging out of snow and dealing with snow here in Colorado. So well, we're running a little late. But I wanted to start off with real simple thought of a question of what is Scale That? that's the name of your company. Tell me a little bit about Scale That. Beau Haralson Yeah, number one, thanks for having me. I'm really honored to be here. And Marc, it's been great to I felt comfortable wearing hat today. Because I know you love a good hat. And so anyway, thanks for thanks for that. But the name Scale That ultimately came from, I've been doing agency work and help them grow brands for the better part of a decade plus, and fortune 500 brands and everything in between. and the number one thing I see folks get wrong is they just scale the wrong thing. And as long as I want, like, it's not like we woke up that day and said, you know, let me just grow my business in the wrong way. We're all well intentioned people. But one of the things I'm really passionate is helping people find the right thing to scale. It's not a matter of if people want to scale, that's usually not the conversation, it's usually figuring out the right thing to grow. And the right way to grow a business and so, so getting a little bit cheeky with it, we're like yeah, let's call it Scale That. Beau Haralson 4:24 because those those are the moments we look for and conversations with folks and help them grow their business and go, Hey, hey, that's nothing skill that. So taking a bit of that excitement, and that's how we ended up the name. Very cool, you know, and I think that we hear this word scale all the time, you know, scale this, scale that I want to scale. You want to scale, let's all scale right. But I think that much like the genesis of your name, you know, it has different definitions. I think it means different things to different people. What's it mean to you? Like, how do you define that? Yeah, it's interesting. I think people Definitely romanticize the concept of scale. I mean, you know, I think it's definitely every entrepreneurs dream to find that that predictable path to revenue is words that I hear tossed around, there's a great book of that title, written by his name escapes, I think, is Aaron Rodgers, but one of the early guys at Salesforce and talks about this idea of predictable path to revenue, and everyone kind of caught on to that idea of like, Okay, if marketing can get predictable, if sales can get predictable, and we can scale, then like, that's the that's the golden ticket. And and to some extent, you know, marketing has gotten to be somewhat predictable. You can you can figure out your customer acquisition costs, and figure out some of the customer journey. But there's, there's part of this lightning and bottle that's just elusive. And I think, to answer your question, ideas, scale, to me means finding that as close as you can, finding that algebra equation, if you will, going, Okay, if we do this, and we do that, it'll cost us x, and the output is y. And if we, if we do that consistently, then we'll grow in scale. The challenges is those inputs change, marketing changes, people change, we're kind of complicated ourselves. So it's an ever-complex kind of system of variables. And then deep within that is the question of scale readiness, a lot of a lot of companies will get into it. And they'll find that path to scale. And then, you know, they'll break. we've, we've run a lot of folks out of inventory, we've broken some companies, and I think, like, part of our questionnaires we get to know companies is are you ready to scale. And you know, there's assumptions within that. And often in fixing those things and taking a half step back, you'll find more efficient ways to scale, you'll just get more exciting from there. But so I think, as much as I love to talk about scale, what I love to talk about is growth, readiness, and close proximity to that as well. Because that's the thing, you can control some of those variables, you can't kind of at the top of the funnel, but the things you can't control is like if you were to say, sell 500 units or whatever you're selling or fulfill, I have to fulfill five more contracts this this week. Would it break you? Are you ready? You know, so that type of stuff is stuff that it's not as romantic as romanticized. But a lot of the good answers are found within those questions. Such a great answer. Thank you. And as I think about that, you know, I also consented a twinge or a twin, if you will, in your voice that suggests that you're not necessarily you didn't you were born and raised here in Colorado. And so as you were, as you were growing up, why don't you take us a little bit back to where you were raised? And where you like, Did you think you'd ever be into this, this concept of scale and marketing and all this kind of stuff. So I was born in Texas, pretty good West Texas, which everyone's on particularly I'm talking about getting my oil changed, it comes right out. But most most of my accent, I think, is somewhat neutralized, but totally depends on who I've been talking to, particularly if I've talked to my mom that day, it comes right out, but or if you're applying a lot of snowbank and a truck, right like that, that gets as centralized as well. That's right. But um, but yeah, so I was born and if you'd read like, say, my high school yearbook, it would have said, like, hey, Bo, you're going to be a great youth pastor someday, and or you're going to be like, a park ranger someday, I've always been in the outdoors. I grew up in a home, where my folks were missionaries growing up. And so by the nature of that, by the time I was 13, I've been to I think, like, six different countries, all of them in very much Third World environments. traveled, the majority of the US just grew up. And really, I wouldn't say like, first class traveling very much a lot of places with not a lot of water. Had a knife pulled on me had a gun pulled on me in those travels, like had had a lot of interesting, you know, perspectives. I think by the time I was like, 1314, and I didn't realize how weird it was entirely compared notes for some some of my friends and was like, What do you guys do this summer? And they're like, we'd like baseball on I'd be like, cool. I almost got shot. Oh, that's different. Yeah. So I think on the other side of, you know, of that, I think, as scary as some of those experiences were, I'm really, really grateful for some perspective that gave me on just kind of, I felt like I got a small undergrad degree and anthropology, by nature of just getting to travel and go to places where, you know, there wasn't electricity, there wasn't running water, you know, just makes you grateful for for every day, and I'm grateful for that experience as well. So pastor, youth pastor or Park Marc Gutman 9:59 Ranger, you are neither right now. Like what happened? Like, like, we're, like you saw in the yearbook and you came out, you know, you're like, I'm gonna conquer the world as a youth pastor, or a park ranger, what happened? Oh, man, that's a great question. I think along the way, I met a girl. Beau Haralson 10:18 And, and I really, you know, like, there's some of that that was really good for me to be honest, there's some immaturity in the early on around this context of like, providing and protecting and figuring that out. And then using some skills. I saw a good movie called Amazing Grace along the way. And there's a scene with William Wilberforce. And, and, and it's pretty poignant for me, but he has an intervention from his friends, and they come together, and they say, Hey, we understand that you're really, really excited about like, becoming a pastor in his scenario. And we understand that you're really, really also excited about becoming a politician. And in his context, actually, changing the nature of the slave trade really being one of the early forefathers of that. And his friends hosted an intervention. And they basically say, Hey, we humbly suggest that you can do both, like, just just go do you, like go be you and pursue your interests, and you're going to like, maybe touch some people along the way, and help them out. And you're also going to, in his case, change public policy, where he can impact people on a different level, potentially, then he could have maybe from behind a pulpit. And so regardless of worldview, the thing that's interesting to me about that is, I think that we think that our career, our worldview has to be this binary thing that we put in a box somewhere, and I had a literally I, my friends, I was interviewing with me my junior year of school, and they're like, Hey, dude, I don't know if you know this, but you're good at other things, like you can actually help people out in the business world. You're halfway decent as a strategist, like you can go do other things. And I said, well, worst case scenario, you try those things for a little while, and I'm not good at them. And I go back to what is, quote, more comfortable for me what I grew up around and with, and it doesn't sound like a terrible way to go. And so I my friends, humbly suggested I do both. And I sat down and, and really reflected through that. And since then, I've been, you know, doing this thing called business and recognize as being halfway decent along the way. So I haven't stopped yet. So we'll see if one day I'll just retire into being a park ranger, though that's still the goal. So how did your parents feel about not carrying on the the line of work, and I imagine they probably had a lot of hopes and dreams for you, as you were thinking about being a youth pastor, or growing into the kind of a similar similar areas, then, you know, I think, I think, overall, my dad is still a great mentor of mine. And I think overall, they're wildly supportive. I mean, I think that if I had gone into nearly anything, they would have been pretty excited about it for me, so that I never felt any undue pressure from them. Let's be honest, and they've been part of the journey. They geek out on it when I release new commercial or import a new project. And so I'm really grateful for the support. Marc Gutman 13:05 And so like, how did you get into marketing? You know, that's still like for your friends to say, hey, like, you're kind of good at this stuff for you know, to get actually into marketing and start doing it. And, you know, what was that? Like? How'd you even get get involved in this space? You had a lot of choices. At that point. If someone says to you, hey, you're good at business? Beau Haralson 13:23 Yeah, no, it's broad. I mean, I graduated degree in communications, and second, second, whatever. It's called a minor in business from Texas a&m. And, and I remember I was walking to a career fair. I mean, it was just like, I was like, literally my last career fair, my senior year. And I'd already proposed to my girlfriend, then three years, we were in our one year engagement period. And, you know, I was like, Alright, I got to show up and make this thing happen. And I was knocking on doors and dial in and you know, trying to kick a kick, open whatever door I could, and I ran into someone, recruiter from officemax. I walked up in point blank said, Hey, listen, I'm not gonna. I'm not a geek on office supplies, like, but I've seen some iOS commercials and some of the stuff y'all do. And it's interesting. And they wrote me in and before I knew it, I was on a plane to Chicago and met a guy named Bob sacker. And Bob was the guy that brought Michael graves into target. And Michael graves was one of the earlier designers there used to be this store called Kmart. And there's kind of like these big three, there's Kmart, Walmart, and target. Were kind of duking it out. And Bob Thacker bra designers in to target and brought design to the masses, ultimately through target. And, and I said, I don't really candidly care about office supplies, but I want to learn from a guy like that. And so at the time, we wanted to move to Colorado and had opportunities out here and I punted on all of them, and I said, Hey, we're gonna go do this whole thing in Chicago, and give it a go. And so I went worked at officemax corporate headquarters, actually on the business side of things and then I reported in Because it's kind of a liaison from the business side to the marketing side, so is representing the voice of the business to the marketers and saying, hey, go and grow this accordingly. And I'd say we're like marketing kind of hit me hook line and sinker was I got to be part of the elf yourself campaign. So I don't know if you remember this campaign, but you got to like you pasted your face on a dancing elf when flash animations were saying and, and you share with friends. So Bob originated that campaign along with this team, and you got to be a part of that. And I was like, Okay, I yeah, this is it. This is the fun side of things. And then that was kind of that was it for me for marketing. Marc Gutman 15:38 And then where did that job lead you to? So eventually, you know, you got interested in marketing. And, you know, you're learning from one of the best at what point do you come to Colorado? Beau Haralson 15:49 Yeah, so we decided that for three or four years, and honestly, it was in the mid to late 2008. So you can do the math, not a great year to be selling much of anything much less like just but like discretionary office supplies and things like that. And so things did compress a bit in the market. And so that was like my first run through a recession, which was, which was really healthy for me from a professional standpoint, to navigate that we got created an innovative and being a part of the business unit that sold store within a store within a store solutions. If you imagine like, at one point time, Best Buy didn't have a designated Apple section or designated like Samsung section that was all like a new concept. And what we would do is take that similar concept and take it into say Kroger, or a Safeway and say, Hey, you guys are selling office supplies, can we just take over that run for you and do that, and so was wrapping up that was helping sell that solution and and got used to kind of selling and enjoyed that part of it and negotiating big deals and be a part of that whole thing and just innovative business modeling. And we're able to save a few jobs. I was like that was that was cool. We were able to actually put some bread on the table for the company gets maker mental funds and a really challenging time. And roundabout. Then Office Depot went to announce they were in they were they were actually going to buy out Office Max. And even if my number would have been called I would have been moving to Boca Raton, Florida. And nothing against Boca Raton. I just I was like, Yeah, I think I think this is our chapter change. And so I've been building a network out here in Colorado for seven years. At that point time, I'd flown out here and I'd ski a day, I'd bike a day. And then I'd go shake hands and have coffee with people out here for seven years straight, regardless of the year. I always just did. That was how I did spring break. And so called up some folks in the network out here and went to work for an agency out here for a little while. And so I got the bug for entrepreneurship. Marc Gutman 17:46 Yeah, what was that agency out here? Beau Haralson 17:48 So they're actually up in long on St. avocet. So is a company that I've interned for and so I knew them a bit and, and really enjoyed that part of the digital was happening at the same time. And a good buddy of mine named Mike Worley was and I had kind of geeked out through mutual mentors, kind of guys that were under the tutelage of Seth Godin, and we'd meet up for, you know, meet up once a month, and just kind of riff on digital marketing, what was happening and believe it or not, like, pay per click, and Google and all that stuff was still just then happening. And we were like, hey, this thing's happening at a fast pace. And he was like, Hey, you want to take the dive? Like, let's just go start something on our own. And so we started an agency ran that for three or four, four years. Yep. And then that was my first foray into entrepreneurship. quickly after quickly ish after moving to Colorado. Marc Gutman 18:40 Yeah. And so like, you know, I think like, because we remember things, it's like, Mike's like, hey, and let's start a business. You're like, Yeah, sure. But like, why did you really want to start your own business? Like, why do that? I mean, it's, it's not easy. You mentioned that you I'm assuming you, you know, you have a wife at this point. I don't know if your family situation, but like, you know, you're you got some responsibilities. So it's not like, nothing's happening, like, you know, why start your own business? Like, why go into business for yourself? Beau Haralson 19:06 Yeah, I mean, coming from a organization of like, 35,000 folks, where there was like, an HR departments and, you know, like, some, you know, cogs to the wheel all moving with or without me showing up like, it was, it was an interesting thing to make that transition. And I had, you know, felt like felt complicated to me at that time. But I had a good friend and another mentor, guy named Aaron McHugh that dropped this now, like this little nugget on me, and he said, Hey, like, to be honest, though, like, life isn't gonna get any more simple than it is right now. Like, I know you have a wife and obligations and all this type of stuff, but like, pretty soon you might have a dog, like a baby, girl family, bigger mortgage, like all the stuff he's like, if there's a time to be risk tolerant, and make a jump and if you feel like you have like a burning, you know, sensation in your heart to like, go do something and put your stamp on it. Like, I got news for you, it's probably in this, maybe in this decade, maybe even in this like two or three year gap that well, things are simple. And it all felt complicated at the time. But like, in hindsight, he was right, right, like life does have prevented you get a little bit more complicated as you go on. I still encourage people that are that have that call to entrepreneurship, no matter the life stage, but but I'm glad I took the dive then. And you're right, it was admittedly scary at that time. I think I remember the first time I got like a $1500 check from our first client. And I felt like it was like, This is crazy. Just like felt so real to me. So scary. And then I was like, well, so like, would I get the check to you know? Just like, it all gets real. Like, you're like, Oh, yeah, there's no departments for anything. There we go. Marc Gutman 20:51 Gotta do it all, I'm the everything person. Yeah. And those words from Aaron McHugh Wow. resonates so much with me. And it's just like, you just don't realize that even when you think how complicated Your life is, it just never seems to get less complicated. It just kind of keeps getting more and more complicated. So great, great advice, and great insight. Great mentorship. That's that's really cool. So that businesses that when I met you and Mike the first time, like when you were in that business? Beau Haralson 21:17 That is, yeah. up at Cloud camp, we had a I've been friends with people Argus for a long time we met at one of Pete's events. But yeah, that was I think that was year two year three ish for us. And decline. But yes, that's when we crossed paths. Marc Gutman 21:33 Yeah. And it was my impression at that time that that business was really strongly weighted towards digital marketing funnel building, working with other partners like digital marketer, can you can you tell us a little bit about that business? And did it? Did I have that right? I'm gonna make sure I read return on that a little. Beau Haralson 21:50 Yeah, you're 100%. Right. So we, I would say we were heavily influenced by HubSpot and some of their methodologies in terms of like, there's a big content marketing push at that time, which is great, and still is a valid marketing strategy. But we paired that with paid media, and that was kind of like the perfect Venn diagram of going, Okay, that's great that you can create content, but how do you amplify it? And then what's the creative behind it? And so that was, I think, what that linchpin between, I had a house rule, which is if you're going to spend, you know, $1,000, creating content, then you probably should, at least from one to one ratio spent $1,000, sending that content out, right, proliferate, like actually, like sharing that content, through paid ads, or whatever. And it's not a perfect role. But it ended up being a good rule. Because a lot of folks that were just in the content marketing game, at that point in time, didn't fully understand the power of paid ads, and advertising and amplifying that content. And so we, I think we quickly moved up in the rank amongst our peers in terms of like understanding and how to create an amplify a funnel, also under the tutelage of you mentioned Digital Marketer under the tutelage of Ryan deiss. And, and Richard Lindner and the crew there, so we kind of met up with them that stream throughout that and drank a ton of the digital marketer Kool Aid. And I'm glad I did it was it's been impactful for me and my career, went on have an opportunity to support them from the paid ads side of things actually run their ads for them in a later chapter, and really form a long, long term relationship with those guys. Marc Gutman 23:23 Yeah. And so you know, we'll fast forward a little bit. I know that you had tremendous success at this company, which was called Clymb Right? Is that the way it's spelled? Beau Haralson 23:33 Correct. Yeah, yeah. Marc Gutman 23:33 Yeah. Just really had a Yeah, the y threw me off. Right. And in your partner, you and Mike, I think Mike went off to do something else. You guys guys separated, but on good terms, and he went off to do something else. And you continue to, to grow the business? And then and then you sell the business? What happened there? Beau Haralson 23:52 Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting. So at the end of year four, we had an opportunity, unsolicited, actually, we had three opportunities coming on the business at the same time. And and just people saying, Hey, we love what you guys are doing. And we want to we want to buy it, we want to acquire it, we want to partner whatever. And we weren't hunting or shopping for any of this at the time, I'd read a book by john warrillow called Built to Sell early on which I highly recommended if you're creating anything, and you did, like, if you're a creative a bit like me, it'll drag you into systems thinking, which is great. And, and so I'd read that book, but kind of like, tucked it away, and also had to pull that book back out, you know, what do we do? And so Mike and I looked at each other, we had one of the opportunities was from a company down in Texas, and I love Texas, born in Texas, but I just wasn't in a hurry to make it transition back there. I'd worked pretty hard to get here in the state of Colorado and raise a family out here. And and so that was the that was the small minute detail that kind of introduced this idea of like, Okay, well, like we graduated our college and entrepreneurship we've been we've been doing this for four years, like cool. It's our senior year. So, so or excuse me, Mike and I had that conversation and like you said part of amicably and he ended up your work work with that company down in Texas for a little while. And that was great. And I took over complete ownership of climb, and ran it for a good another six to nine months, something to that effect, and one of those other suitors if you will continue to pursue me in that in that gap of time. And, and that was a local creative agency out here in Boulder called human and human ultimately acquired climb, I think six to nine months past that, that four year mark, where Mike and I separated. And it was, again, I got in, I think I'd had a dress rehearsal through of like, what the whole acquisition could look like, and, and got a taste of what the main act could look like. And, and really could see acceleration through through acquisition as part of my journey at the time. And I'm really glad that I stepped through that door. Yeah, and got through those conversations and had an exit. And, and, you know, I think it's not as common in the service industry. But I could write a, at least two or three chapters of a book on like, what I learned going through it. And, and I'm really glad I did, and was able to, you know, go through that process and provide for my family and get some level of, you know, like an exclamation point on, you know, four years of 60 and 80, and sometimes 100 hour weeks of just kind of pushing and working hard. Marc Gutman 26:35 This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo, or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you, when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out@www.wildstorm.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. Yeah, you said you learned a ton. If you could share one thing that you learned out of out of that experience? What would it be? Or what do you share most often with people? Beau Haralson 27:45 Yeah, um, I mean, there's the really tactical stuff of like legal setups, and all those types of things, which I think you can you can google and find out and happy to do that. But more like a philosophical level, I think. The the way I learned this lesson was by nature of the birth of our first kiddo, so he Eli was born about two years into a four year stint, if you will, as an entrepreneur, and he was born two months early. And so we spent six weeks in the hospital with him. And it was a really intense six weeks, right, like, you know, I could answer emails, sometime at 10 o'clock at night. And it was, you know, we literally lived in the hospital with them. And it was really, really humbling, because I came out of that experience and thought, Man, I built this business for it to survive with me being in the room 60% of the time. And I can't be in the room 60% of the time, like, even if I want to, like there's life circumstances that come up. And so I sat down, and I wrote out all the things that I did on a week to week basis. And I literally just was like, Okay, what is that I can I delegate operationalize form, put a process around. And one of that's like the top 20%, that like, absolutely requires the, the me being in the room moment. And I cut out about 40% of what I did. And I operationalized it as best I could with Mike coming out of the hospital. And if I hadn't done that, I don't think we would ever accident to be honest. Because like, it just would have been a talent acquisition, and not like a company acquisition. And by nature building those processes. And they weren't perfect to begin with, but they got better and better. And we got better and better. We actually had something that was acquirable that people were interested in. And I think I had to lower some pride, right. I like to I like to be the Don Draper. I like to come in with creative ideas. I like to be that guy. And I think I have a knack for it. But but if that's the 20% and like, what's the other 80% that that is necessary, but not, you know, maybe a necessary evil is big. You know Like to that actually takes away from those creative moments or takes away from those impactful moments? And how can we, you know, so anyway, I could wax and wane on about that for a long time. But I think I'd encourage you, wherever you're at. No matter what business stage, I read a book called essentialism. Man, scrag McEwen. There it is, if you read the first chapter, it's great. But it just talks about the idea of writing yourself out of the job out of a job, and doing only the stuff that you're the best at, and delegating the best as the rest as best you can. So even if you're ever going to axe it or not, it's good practice. It's a good thing to get used to. And a good, good, good audit. And I'm glad that by nature of circumstance, I had to go through that audit the hard way to do it the easy way. don't end up in the hospital. Marc Gutman 30:54 Yeah, and thanks for sharing all that. I want to make sure we get to probably one of the more pivotal moments of your life in your career. And so you've, you've exited, you've been acquired by human at least from the outside, I'm you know, and I followed it. I was watching, I was like, How awesome is that? Right? Like you then like it elevated into some pretty sweet clients and opportunities and big name clients that I'll let you talk about if you want, but I'm looking at it. Like how cool is a strategist and a brand builder and a marketer? What an amazing opportunity exited into a really cool hit Colorado ad agency and brand building agency. But then, you know, life didn't get any less complicated for you did it? Beau Haralson 31:38 Sure. No. And I think like success is iterative. I think that people think that success is this like, man, if I could just like buy a Lamborghini one day, that would be like the marker of success for some people like some and that's great, man, if that motivates you, fast cars are cool, I get it, like, go for it. But I think like your definition of success can change every six months if it needs to. So you know, I'll start with kind of that, sign that human for, I think two years. And I think week one, I found myself like on a plane up to like Nike headquarters and stuff like that. And I was like, oh, okay, here we go. And I'd work with some like, fortune 1000 brands call it but not like fortune 50 or not like fortune 100. And I was like, Okay, all right, here we go. And so I bought a new pair of shoes, which was a good idea. And you know, like, just like, you know, all sudden were but it was what was ironic about the whole thing is that the conversations weren't that dissimilar of early stage startups. And I'll leave you with the I'll leave one concept one, one footnote of this whole experience is that the secret of what I think of working with big brands is that small brands want to be big. And big brands actually want to be small. And so like there's this interesting, like, kind of triangulation between these two things I saw on getting to work with small and big. And actually, I think that's pretty cool. But if you're a small brand, listening, and if you you know, maybe you're a challenger brand, or you're just kind of like in that early stage of creating that momentum, your greatest advantage is the fact that you're small. It's that you're nimble, that you can create these amazing relationships with your customers early on, and that's going to that's going to be what's creates raving fans. And the secret to the big guys, don't tell you is that they actually are kind of like, jealous might be the wrong word. But they, they study you and that's why you have these acquisitions of like Hormel and Justin's nut butter or watch Dollar Shave Club and what they've done over the last five to 10 years, they were a challenger brand not too long ago. Harry's fall we're talking about shaving has taken over like four feet of space and target they started as a DTC brand. But you know, I think small isn't a big, big, serious fall. Have fun with that one. But like I think that was the thing I learned is that I could take these small brands strategies, help them apply, apply them to bigger brands, and get them super excited about that. And here's the the one thing that was ultra exciting about that is that we could take some of those bigger brand budgets and apply those smaller challenger strategies to them and create a bit of jet fuel behind that success. So first, long I had the opportunity to work with I mean, World Expo and Dubai had an opportunity to inform a bit of the strategy behind the brand launched with LeBron James Arnold Schwarzenegger, Lindsey Vaughn, and Cindy Crawford, and got found myself in this really like interesting brand strategy role along with marketing in those hallways, and that was great. Here's the deal. I was in those hallways for a long time. And that's not a knock against the the brand specifically this agency specifically I have good friends across the agency environment and the hours are not normal hours. And a lot of that's just because a lot of folks and agencies care and they care about those brands, they're gonna they're gonna put in the hours to make sure that they show up. It is a competitive environment. There's about 15,000 small to midsize agencies in the US, there's probably about 100 200 Omnicom level, broader, bigger agencies, and every one of them that I've, you know, that I've had the opportunity to interact with, you know, in the trenches are all working dang hard. And I've got an amazing amount of respect for that. But to tee up the second part of that conversation, which is the transition of like, how to my version of success, my professional journeys been marked by my kids in a good way. But we got news at the 20 week appointment for our second kiddo, that she was going to be born with Spina Bifida. And there's a lot of different types of spina bifida, hers was on the spectrum of good to bad or like menial to like, not, hers is more on the not great side of things. So doctors looked at us in the eye and said, hey, there's 80% chance she's going to be born with some some level of cognitive cognitive issues and her hydrocephalus, she likely won't walk. And, you know, it's going to be a tough journey. And they asked us, they're like, do you want to go on this journey? I was like, Are you asking when I think you're asking like, yeah, we're in like, without hesitation, my wife and I like we definitely cried at the diagnosis, we had our moment. and work through that. And so we're working through that. But we're, we're in, right, and I'm kind of all in or all out type of guy. And and, and so let's see here tweeted, like 15 weeks later, 15 to 16 weeks later, she was a little bit early. We're on the roller coaster wife goes and labor. We just seen we just been in for an ultrasound that day. So I saw me in the womb, the day she was born. And and I actually asked the doctors like, hey, real talk. If Jenny goes and labor tonight, what do I do like burden at risk category, we live 45 minutes from children's, which is where the baby like person needs to be born with all the help and support available. Or we're like 20 or 30 minutes away from you. And she was like, didn't push it the extra 15 minutes, you'll avoid being on a helicopter and your daughter will avoid being on helicopter, like and being separated from mom. And I was like, Yeah, well, like that sounds great. So literally that night, Jenna went into labor. It's like 20 degrees out. If you live here in Colorado, you appreciate this. But there's a 470. And it's a toll road. Thankfully, and and so I pushed it 115 120 miles per hour on that thing and made that drive in like 2530 minutes. And and Jenna was I won't get into specifics, but she but she was it was it was time that Amy was nearly born in the car. So Amy was born, had surgery on her spine within 24 hours and then hung out in the hospital for another nine days. And my life changed forever. And the best of ways. And, and with that my career needed to change a bit too. But I knew that at that moment, you know, from a priority standpoint, in order, I wanted to be a great husband, and be a great dad. And if I had to be, quote, good businessmen. That was okay, I'd rather be like, I'd rather not be a great businessman, and a good husband and a good dad, or maybe potentially bad dad because I don't run out of hours. And so I reprioritize completely. And I don't regret a single bit of that. But I was working 80 hours a week at the time. And I just literally just started working 35 hours a week and hit my numbers and doing my things and it became apparent that you know, I needed to be in the trenches, we all need to be working on those light late night pitches together, etc. And I wasn't gonna be that guy anymore. And and so I just gracefully accepted stage left. And that was that was kind of our departure. And I don't regret a bit of that because I think a lot of people would say hey, like pursue the thing hustle like I love Gary Vee, I've had the opportunity to meet him and talk to him about work life balance, and, and he he actually is an inspiration for me in the context of I've asked him point blank, I said, hey, what would slow you down? And he said, If I had a medical need, or if there was something going on with my family that required me to be home, I said, Thank you, thank you. I didn't need his validation. But hustle culture can, I think get too turned up to too high. And so I turned my volume down. And that's been a good transition for me on the back end of that. So that's a bit long winded. But that's that's been my my journey. We can kind of end on the current chapter, if you'd like but any questions on that part of the journey? Marc Gutman 39:55 Yeah, no, I'd love to get into it. way deeper. We are running tight on time. I know that you have to To run along here. And so what I'd love for you to do is just let us know, you know, what's next for for Beau and Scale That like, what are you looking forward to? What are you most excited about right now? Beau Haralson 40:12 Yeah, um, so join forces with a good long term friend of mine, named Alex turned in about two years ago now. And we played to our strengths, right? So he's really good at paid media. I'm pretty good at creative. I've had the opportunity to shoot shoot national commercials and Facebook ads and all the things. And we said, hey, what would what would success in this chapter look like he had access to the agency prior as well. And so we kind of, you know, met up classic thing got out of napkin, and we said, hey, let's just take on a half dozen clients a year that have our cell phone number. And let's take really good care of them and say no to anything above that. And so we've got five or six private clients, private in the context that I can't share with you, I can share with you like one or two of their names. But I'm under NDA where I can't for the others, and we spend, you know, three to $5 million plus on advertising a month for those guys and take really good care of them. And when they have creative needs, and when they have other stuff that's coming up and business strategy stuff, we advise on those and take care folks as best we can. And so that's been a privilege to step into that it's right size, I get to be a dad, I get to be a therapy appointments, I get to be, you know, I've got to get my oldest to gym here in a minute. And that's I mean, that, for me is my definition of success. Ferrari or no Ferrari, I'm plenty happy with that. And we're moving the needle for folks and taking good care of our clients. And it's just been great. So I think there was like a, how can we help kind of nature of that, or what's kind of what's what's within that. So the business models pretty simple. Take care of a half dozen folks, we're moving in the consulting with whatever extra hours we have. So we're taking a group of clients that, quite honestly wouldn't be initial great fits for our direct service model. And we're gonna do some on ongoing coaching for folks that just need high level support, but have people in house to help execute. So we'll be unveiling that in the next probably 30 or 45 days. And we've built out some software in the background that helps people buy ads more effectively and efficiently, and took parts of Alex's brain and a bit of mine and had that all coated up. And so we'll be selling that software. Again, it's just about replicating what you can and, and then we're kind of in a mindset that if we don't share some of the success that we've been able to create for clients, it's actually been I mean, this was with no ego, but I had a good friend that was like, hey, it's kind of selfish not to share, you should start sharing how you help people. And that will help other people help other people. And I was like, Great, yeah, you're right, you win. So we're kind of pivoting to like, actually starting to share some of the stories that have, you know, typically been hidden in conference rooms and boardrooms of, you know, fortune 100 companies. And I'm excited to start sharing that a bit more and sharing how to how to make that impact. Marc Gutman 43:14 Great, well make sure you've let us know how we can help you share that where our listeners can find access to add or get more information or enroll in that in the ability to receive those stories and Beau as we come to a close here. You know, I'd like you to think back to that that boy in high school who is way in the the idea of being a youth pastor or a park ranger, and what do you think he'd say, if he saw you today? Beau Haralson 43:39 Hmm. He probably taught me to rest a bit more. But I think I think he'd also say like, um, you know, everything in it season is probably a good way to summarize that is like, hey, like, that's, that's great young Bo, that you have this, these these, like, your heart is excited about these things. Because oriented, be it like playing outside, but like, I think I've come to this conclusion that like, everything has its own little season, like, you know, dumped on us this weekend. And people were like, do you go skiing? And I'm like, Nah, man, I was hanging out with a two year old, like, that's fine. And I was happy to be. So I think a lot of people want success now. And they define it in a certain way. But I think you can, you can do both. And I think you can be patient and have your definition of success in its own season. And I think to be patient and that and to be discerning in that and to readjust and calibrate for that is probably what I would say to the young buck sitting there with this yearbook open was just like, Hey, be patient man, and pursue things fully, but like Be patient and don't pursue it all at once. Marc Gutman 44:51 And that is Beau Haralson, co founder of Scale That I've been following Bo's career over the years and in typical Beau fashion. He was very humble and understated about all the brands he's worked with, and his successes in the marketing space. Maybe we can get him back on the show for a round to brag session. There were so many nuggets in this one, but two that stood out to me. everyone finds their success in their own season. That is so true. And I think that if we just let that hang and resonate for a moment, you'll feel how impactful that insight is. And the other big standout idea was that big brands really want to be like small brands, and small brands have all the opportunity is there adaptable and nimble. You hear that small brands go out there and kick some big brand but a big thank you to Beau Haralson and the Scale That team I love your order of priorities and it is inspiring to hear how our business lives can be prioritized if we only ask, can I delegate this, we will link to all things Beau Haralson and Scale That in the show notes. And if you know the guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wildstory.com. Our best guests like Beau come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode a lot big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can't deny.

BGBS 060: Tim Parr | CADDIS | Own Your Age Aging. Most of us try our best to slow it down. But can you blame us? How do we learn to embrace our age in a society that trains us to want to feel 15 years younger than we are? Tim Parr's company, CADDIS, is challenging those standards and redefining what it is to “age” in contemporary culture. CADDIS has a refreshing take on aging, rallying around the notion that it is absolutely right to be the age that you are, and beyond that, they demand that you own it. Tim definitely knows what he's doing, but don't take it from us. Brands such as Patagonia, L.L. Bean, Filson, Burton, and many more have trusted his methods and guidance on big issues that steer ships over long periods of time. He has also conducted lectures at the Stanford School of Design, the San Francisco Academy of Art, and the California College of Arts. Before CADDIS, it all began with the founding of the iconic bike brand, Swobo. We also can't forget touring with Tim's Bluegrass band throughout the Western US and how learning guitar was an essential influence for CADDIS's messaging today. This episode celebrates the irreverence of 80s Thrasher magazines and emphasizes selling the message more than the product (though this product speaks for itself! I mean, check out the top of these rims). You'll learn lots about building a brand in this episode, but if you forget it all, make sure you remember this: The fun lies in changing people's minds. Quotes [0:02] I think developing some type of talent as you recognize your passions is super important. If you just blindly go after your passions, I think it's a good way to get hurt. [8:45] It felt punk rock. It was like, okay, we're going after a taboo subject matter that freaks the hell out of people. That seems like fun. And we'll create this house called Age and the reading glasses are the door prize. Join our club and here's your badge, which became the glasses. [12:19] The dusted over, unsexy categories? That's where the gold lies. [17:37] I attribute a lot of how I was wired to the early 80s, Thrasher magazine…I viewed that as communication. And it was visual communication in a way that was very new. It was that irreverent part that that didn't really exist before that. It was irreverence meets punk rock meets some form of street culture, fashion, all wrapped up into that magazine. [19:20] I remember going through old W magazines and Vogues and the rest of them when I was like 10 years old and just rapidly flipping through because I didn't care about the content, I cared about some type of communication… At the time I just thought, what were the hidden easter eggs inside this medium, to where I can get knowledge of what's happening? [25:38] I don't know if we go into it trying to be the cool kids. That might be a byproduct of it. Or a semi-intended consequence. I have to just think it just boils down to: it's just more fun. And then when you really kind of peel away the onion on it, it's more profitable. Because there's less people doing it, which makes it a whitespace. [48:12] There's no easy path. It doesn't matter what it is or what gifts you have, they're all hard. Resources Website: caddislife.com Instagram: @caddis_life LinkedIn: Tim Parr Facebook: @caddislife Music Farming Nonprofit: musicfarming.org Podcast Transcript Tim Parr 0:02 I think developing some type of talent as you recognize your passions is super important. If you just blindly go after your your passions, I think it's a good way to get hurt. So for some reason, and it goes back to those, as you recognize it does early 80s, Thrasher magazines and you know, for the for most of my life I've been stewing on what works and what doesn't work when you're talking to people through this particular medium. Marc Gutman 0:37 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Backstory, we're talking about readers. That's right. Those cheap glasses you buy at Walgreens the supermarket when you get older and can't see so good. Well, not exactly those readers. We're talking about cool rock and roll readers. Trust me, you'll love it. And before we change your perception on what readers are and who they are for, here's a gentle reminder. If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Does anyone really listen to this and review us over at Apple podcasts and Spotify? Probably not. So let's get on with the show. Today's guest is Tim Parr. Tim has both founded new companies as well as worked for some of the most respected brands in the lifestyle industries, brands such as Patagonia or being filson. Burton, and many more have trusted his methods and guidance on big issues that steer ships over long periods of time. In his conducted lectures at the Stanford School of Design, the San Francisco Academy of Art in the California College of Arts. It all began with the founding of the iconic bike brand Swobo. And then, as Tim puts it, elevated the shoveling Yak manure with Yvon Chouinard, the Patagonia throwing some years as a touring bluegrass musician, and now he has founded CADDIS, the brand that will redefine what it is to age in contemporary culture. CADDIS is a unique brand, because they're making readers cool. They're helping their community to own their age. And this topic is especially resonant with me, as I think about age. I have an ageing father. And that gets me thinking about my own age a lot lately. And the truth is, I've never felt the right age. When I was young, I wanted to be old. And as I get older, as we all do, I want to be younger. I think it's about time that I hear Tim's message and own my age. Maybe it's a message you need to hear as well. Tim power has had quite a journey, always able to follow his passions and start businesses. I am fascinated by Tim's outlook on brand and business and I know you will be too. And this is his story. I am here with Tim Parr, the founder of CADDIS and Tim, let's let's get right into it. What is CADDIS? Tim Parr 3:55 CADDIS is a lifestyle brand that is specifically going after 45 to 65 year olds, which is a market that hasn't seen lifestyle marketing branding, go after them. And go after is the wrong term. I would say rally around is a better way to put it. Marc Gutman 4:16 Yeah. And to clarify a bit CADDIS also, I mean, you specialize at least your flagship product and your I see you're starting to branch out a bit but your flagship product, you're the product you started with readers, which is a very interesting kind of product to start with. Because I think the perception of readers as Walmart and old people and a lot of things, we can talk about that. But what really, I think is cool about this brand and I'd love to talk about it is right away right up front, you kind of you're not selling readers, you're selling this idea of owning your age and it being okay to grow older. And I can tell you personally, that's something that I struggle with. It's something that I have a really hard time with. And I think about a lot. So this idea of age is this is this something That's that's consumed You or been on your mind is as you start to grow older? Tim Parr 5:03 No, not at all. And in fact, it wasn't even prior to us selling anything, I was in the process of raising money. And before we had this clarity on on what we were really doing, which was what you just described, we were in the reader market. So, I mean, as a as a concept, and we were just, you know, we were selling cooler, hipper, and for terrible words to use, but they cut to the chase, reading glasses, you know, with a lifestyle marketing angle. That was the entirety of, of what we were selling. And then it wasn't until prior to that, we weren't selling anything. Up until this point, we were I had, I had six pairs of glasses, and I was trying to raise a little bit of money to get this thing off the ground. So I was in a meeting with someone in San Francisco, at a at a venture capital place, and the person is, you know, going to the gym stood the product, and everything was lining up perfectly. And on the back of our packaging, there's this quote, about aging, and just to own it, and they go, well, what's this, and I had literally just slapped it on there in the 11th hour, subconsciously, it seems like a good idea at the time to call people out about how they think about aging. But But we hadn't really delve into it. I go well, I just kind of think that people should own age. And they told me like, you can't do that. And everyone wants to believe that they're 15 years younger that they are, and this won't work, you can't do that. And meeting was over at that point, because of our position, which wasn't even a position at a time. It was it was some flipping copy that I wrote on the back and had it printed on the packaging. And then by the time I walked from that desk down to the street, it hit me like a ton of bricks. Like oh my god, like that's what we're doing. Like, we're not in the reading glass market. Like there's a whole much larger idea here. It was the first moment where I really found our why in our business, like why should we even matter? Like, why do we exist, and it feels just to cut different frames and put reading glass lenses in. It wasn't enough. And then by the time I hit the street, it was I had it like that this is the business that we're in, we're in the business of owning age, just like Patagonia owns corporate stewardship, or, you know, Casper owns sleep or a way owns travel. Like we're gonna own age. So that's where it that's basically where that's where it came from. Marc Gutman 7:58 Yeah. And it to this point, were you were you searching for that Why? Or like what was going on? Tim Parr 8:03 Yeah, but I didn't know it. Yes. It is on hindsight, because I wasn't like I was in it, but I wasn't fully bought into it. Like, okay, like this is a white space. Like the only product that's on the market is $10 garbage from Walgreens or CVS. We know we can do the design, we know we can do the marketing. We know we don't know. But we have a strong inclination that the market is there. We're not the only ones that feel this way about the product and the experience of buying the product. But it wasn't, it wasn't enough and there hadn't one foot in, and then after that meeting I had both feet in because at that point, it felt punk rock. Like it was like, okay, we're going we're going after a taboo subject matter that freaks the hell out of people. Like that seems like fun. And we'll we'll create this house called age. And the reading glasses are the are the door prize? You know, it's like, join our club. And here's your here's your here's your badge, which became the glasses. Marc Gutman 9:11 And so you said it wasn't working? Like tangibly what wasn't working for you? Like why? What was going on? Tim Parr 9:17 I don't, I didn't, because I didn't need to do it. And these things are hard. Let's be honest, they're really hard. Most of them don't work. You know, it's not my first one. It's like my third or fourth one. So and it was like okay, it was just that So what, you know, okay, so what so so you found a niche to sell more reading glasses, and it wasn't enough. And it again, remind you, I don't have this type of foresight. This is all looking backwards and I can evaluate what was going through me after the fact and I didn't have that that Big Picture, this is why we exist. We're going to own age and we're going to change how people feel about aging in an in this culture. Marc Gutman 10:11 And so you're walking out of that meeting, it hits you and and, you know, help me fill in the gaps if I'm if I'm not retelling the story. it hits you, it's like a lightning bolt. It's punk rock like, this is what we're selling. Like, how did you know that that was the thing to hold on to now and that this was what you were going to the market, you were about to enter? Tim Parr 10:33 Pattern recognition. So it was the thing that when I got that response from that person, who is a venture capitalist, who you know, has a very conservative, you know, point of view about a lot of stuff. And if I could get that reaction out of somebody, I can get a different reaction out of a subculture. So if if that person was so against that idea, if something tells me inside of me, I could tap into a crew, that would be the Yang to that ying. Marc Gutman 11:14 So who was the first person that you ran, and said, I got this and told this? Tim Parr 11:19 I remember, dialing my phone, because I had that we there is after, after I started, I grabbed four or five co founders with me to do the heavy lifting in the early days. So I remember running down the street in San Francisco and dialing each one of them saying, Okay, this is what we're doing now. And it was that it was a 50/50. I don't know. And all right, awesome. Sounds great. So yeah, I remember vividly. Marc Gutman 11:53 And so like why even readers? So you mentioned that this is, you know, you've had multiple experiences in starting businesses. We'll talk a bit about your past. I mean, you've had some great brand building experience in education, like of all the things, you know, and that you could have, you could have done like what, why readers? Tim Parr 12:11 That's exactly it's the, your reaction to it is exactly why you should do it. And so the dusted over unsexy categories. That's where the gold lies. Not the cool sexy categories. does sound kind of redundant, but I knew that's where the fun lies, is to change people's minds about things. So one, it's a product that people need. And it's a it's a, by definition, it is a medical device. So people need it. It's not like we were making another pair of denim jeans, or you know, something that you'd have to justify, you know, picking yet another pair for your closet or something. So there is there was that aspect to it. When I needed him, and I couldn't find anything that worked. So I wanted to create the ones that I wanted. And it just felt right, because everyone thought, you know, like, Who? Who cares about readers. And if you go back to my pass, like I had a stint in cycling, and it was the same thing. It was like we went up against a black lacquer short. So it was almost like it was doing it all over again. I had another foe to go against it, which was the crappy $10 only option at the moment. Marc Gutman 13:42 Yeah, and the way that I'm imagining it, and filling in the gaps of your story is that like you're at Walmart or something, and you're standing there looking at readers, and you're like, these things are messed up. And it's weird, like I you know, like, I don't have a lot of experience with readers. And so it's also confusing, you know, like, when I first became aware of your company, I was like, do I need readers? You know, like, how do they work? And there's like this magnification, there's this kind of like this weird thing around them. They're not, you know, I think I grew up where you you go to the optometrist, and you get glasses or whatever, you know, they tell you, you it's not like really the self diagnostic thing. And to your point, I think, to me, readers just seemed like this thing that you did, because maybe you couldn't afford glasses or like like, like it was like a stopgap or something. But that that's neither here nor there. Was this how it happened? Where you were you you mentioned, you needed readers, readers standing there in front of the display being like this thing. This is this is just messed up. Tim Parr 14:36 Yeah. And I don't wear glasses, normal eyewear until I need reading glasses. So the whole process of corrective eyewear, I had no clue. I didn't know how things get fixed. So I was down in Malibu and I was killing time. So I walk into this optometry shop. I'm like, I got this problem or I can't see and like oh yeah, you reading glasses, pick a frame. And we'll, you know, we'll figure out what you need. And we'll pop them in, we'll send it to you in 10 days or so. All right, I guess that's how it works. And I don't know. But I started looking at the frames I want and there's, you know, between 300-800. And then I had to wait like 10 days and long story short, I ended up getting nothing. And walking out of there just thinking something's broken here. And I asked the guy in the story go like, Is it true? Like, either I'm spending $10 at Walgreens? Or I'm spending $400 here? And is that kind of it? He goes, Oh, no, no, no. So he goes in the back of the store, pulls open a drawer, you know, it optometry store in Malibu, it's just like, you know, like a beautiful merchandise thing. The readers were all crammed into a drawer in the back. And they're like, purple and blue, and like cateye, and you know, they fold 800 different ways. And it goes, Well, you can choose from any of these. And, you know, those are like 40 bucks, or, like, really, like, That's it, I'm going to put these things on my face. And that's the spectrum of choice that I'm looking at. So it was like one of those classic situations where, you know, person needed thing thing didn't exist, go make the thing that you want. So that's, that's basically how it all started, was from that moment, and then did some homework and you know, reading glasses 90% of people in this country will need them at some point over the age of 40. Marc Gutman 16:39 That's a great stat when you're starting a business and looking for a target market. Tim Parr 16:44 Yeah, 90, 90% of people over 40. Marc Gutman 16:49 And that's my that's my case, you know, these are reading glasses. I don't wear them all the time I wear I'm in front of the computer. And exactly to your point. I mean, I felt like I had two options was Walgreens, so the optometrist and end up going to the optometrist. And here I could have been doing things a lot different. And so Tim, what I get is this real sense, though, that, that you have this this quality about you that you look, and notice when things are broken, and where things don't make sense. And so and I could gather that's probably you can you can tell me if it's untrue, but you know, looking at your past experience as well, that kind of holds true that you're a serial entrepreneur. I mean, it was not always the case for you. Like when you were a young, young kid, were you looking around the world and being like this, this is this isn't working, or this is, this is what I want to do. Like, where were you like, as a kid, were you entrepreneur? Tim Parr 17:37 No, but I think I attribute a lot of how I was wired to early 80s, Thrasher magazine. Marc Gutman 17:48 Which I am a massive fan of, you probably aren't a big fan of Baby got Backstory, but I talked about it a lot on the podcast, and it's a whole reason I moved to California after I went to college, because I had fallen in love with the beautiful imagery of Venice Beach, only to realize that none of that was true. You know, it was Venice was it was it was a lot harder. And their kids, those kids who had really hard lives, but I thought it was awesome. And so I'm a big fan, so I can't wait to hear where you're going with this. Tim Parr 18:15 So I viewed that as communication. And it was a it was it was visual communication in a way that was very new. It was that irreverent, you know, part that that didn't really exist. Before that. It was it was it was irreverence meets punk rock meets some form of street culture, fashion, all wrapped up into into that magazine. And I remember, I remember doing that. And with something like let's say, I mean, back in the day, it was like action now or surfer magazine, just flipping through the pages as a teenager or even younger, and registering what was right or what was wrong, just from just from cues. And I think that had a much larger impact on me than just about anything in my life. And I remember my mom used to collect a lot of fashion magazines and I would do the same through those I'm or going through old, old web magazines and Vogue and the rest of them now has like 10 years old or something and just rapidly flipping through because I didn't care about the content and I cared about some type of communication and like I would just I wouldn't know it until I saw it and then I would see it and at the time I could just kill I just thought like okay, well what's what's talking what's cool, what can I what were the hidden hidden almost like easter eggs inside this inside this medium, to where I can I can get knowledge of of what's out. happening. And I put most of how I am from those early days. Marc Gutman 20:07 Do you have a sense of where that came from? And where your parents in the communication were they into That kind of stuff? Tim Parr 20:13 No, it's probably a lack of. I mean, to this day, it's probably why I started companies is so I can talk to people. Marc Gutman 20:21 Yeah. And were you Where did you grow up? Was it Southern California, Northern. And so when you were growing up in Northern California, and you're looking at these magazines, like, what did you think you wanted to do with your life? Like, were you your kind of plans at that point? Tim Parr 20:37 I didn't have any. It was it was to surf and skate. And that was my plans. So my whole existence in high school was surfing and skating. And then when I got to senior year, it was okay, how can I get to live on the beach? And to really do that was UCSB because you are living on the beach. So that's where I ended up going to school so I could serve, you know, and it's just it. It was trying to just find that critical path of the least that I had to do in order to achieve the lifestyle that I really wanted. So I went to UCSB so I could serve, you know, got out of there with a 2.0. And then, you know, just kind of started figuring stuff out after that. But it was it was really that drove everything. Marc Gutman 21:24 Yeah, and were you interested in anything other than surfing at UCSB did you start to think like, hey, like, there might be something else out there? Was it all surf all the time? Tim Parr 21:34 Yeah, it kind of was, you know, living in it after that and lived in a van and, and that was in riding mountain bikes. You know, mountain biking was just coming on the scene and the to complement each other really well. So now I can't really say I thought past the next month. Marc Gutman 21:54 So when would you say you got your first real job? Tim Parr 21:57 I'm still working on it. Marc Gutman 22:02 I like that. That's you, you've mastered that. But it did look like that you had some experience at some other companies prior to starting your own? Tim Parr 22:13 Yeah, I would say the first real job was the company that I started, which was called Swobo. In the in the cycling industry. And before that I was you know, racing bikes. And I was lifeguarding or something, you know, just to make ends meet. But yeah, the first job real job was simply one that I created. Marc Gutman 22:34 And what's the story behind that? Tim Parr 22:37 It was early 90s, mid 90s. It was and the answer to the to what was happening in cycling. So you had at that point suspension fork had come to mountain bikes, which opened up the category immensely. And you had snowboarding's snowboarders in the summertime now hopping on mountain bikes, because there were now fun because of suspension and, and became relevant to a much broader group of people rather than cyclist. So, when that started getting off the ground, the apparel world was still just black lycra shorts and jerseys from Europe, you know, tight like rich jerseys. So we were credited with kind of changing the look of, of mountain biking culture, in a way. And not unlike reading glasses. I mean, the first product that we had, we were we were, besides the traditional one or two, three vendors that had been doing it for last 100 years, we were the ones to bring back first bring back wool jerseys. So we brought back a traditional fabric that no one wanted anymore. And then we paired it with a with a bike messenger kind of punk culture. And we urbanized so cycling before that was pretty tight, a, you know, serious athletics, blah, blah, blah. And what we wanted to do was just take that and change it. So people fixated on the bicycle itself, and the lifestyle around a bicycle that one could have without needing to be an Uber athlete. Marc Gutman 24:22 And then was that business plan the way you just articulated it? Was it that concrete and thought out at the time, or were you just like, Hey, I like cycling. I like mountain biking. Like, I want to do something cool. Like Like, where did it land on that spectrum? I mean, were you really saying like I could make this a disruptive business? Tim Parr 24:40 We didn't use that word back then because I don't think it existed. Because it was early 90s. But yeah, I think there was that mentality because we just watched what snowboarding did to skiing, right? Which was massive, right? It turned to ski on its head. So we saw that there's a similar thing you could do in the streets, specifically, and in urban centers with, with the bicycle and with cycling, like modern cycling. So, yeah, I think it was pretty conscious actually. Marc Gutman 25:21 And so what is it about that idea that that punk rock counterculture idea that, you know, we're gonna come into a category and disrupt it say, hey, like we're the cool kids? Like, what is it about that for you that that's appealing? Tim Parr 25:38 I don't know, if we go into it trying to be the cool kids. That might be a byproduct of it. Or in semi intended consequence. But what is it about that? I have to just think it just boils down to it's just more fun to write. And, and then when you really kind of peel away the onion on it, it's more profitable. Because there's less people doing it, which makes it a whitespace. So if you can, which makes your marketing cost lower, right. So if you're not competing with it with similar messages, there's less noise, therefore you can maximize whatever it is that you are saying. So I mean, that's not anything that I was conscious of at the time. But in hindsight, if you're to look at why would you do that, there's economic reasons for doing it. And there's reasons to do it. Because it's, I just find it way more fun. Marc Gutman 26:46 Then, as you were trading this new brand, it's Swobo I have that right? Kind of like with? Yeah, Tim Parr 26:51 yes. S W O B O Marc Gutman 26:53 Yeah. Swobo? Like, were you getting resistance? Where people not happy with you, you know, that we're the establishment in the category? Oh, yeah. Tim Parr 27:04 Yeah, there are plenty people who are not happy with us. And that's how you rally the people who are happy with you. You know, but, uh, you know, it's a fine line. And I think we had incredible respect for all the right things, and no respect for things that didn't matter. So when if you were, so when we were do the trade show, I would have bank messenger from New York City, you know, let's say 25 years old blue hairs, you know, piercings all over their face, holding up the same piece of clothing as like a 65 year old nostalgics skater or skater, cyclist, they could point to the same thing and go, that's cool. And I and that's always been a goal of mine is is to make the product almost agnostic to the message, make the message be the product, and articulate that better than most. So, so so so that there is old school cyclists that really appreciated what we were doing, and respected the craft of the, of the merino wool and, and the heritage of it and bringing it back and caring about it. And then there is a kids in the streets that were stoked, because it wasn't all, you know, super clean athletes that the sport was about. Marc Gutman 28:33 Yeah. And you said, and I'll paraphrase, because I probably won't get it get it totally right. But it was this idea about make the message, you know, something bigger than the product and articulate it better than most. And that's a pretty, like, advanced sort of idea. You know, I don't think most people just enter the market and think think that way. Now, was that something that was intrinsic to you that that came natural to you? Or did you learn this idea that like, hey, you're really selling something else, something bigger than the actual product? Was that was that something you actually learned or that just come naturally? Tim Parr 29:10 It came naturally. I didn't learn it anywhere. I think it's just instincts Marc Gutman 29:15 Some good instincts. Tim Parr 29:16 Good. Thank you. It sounds like taking it. So you say you take a very true the most traditional piece of cycling apparel you could possibly make, which is the the wool jersey. And then when we first came out, we had a model, this woman with a short crop punky like purple hair. And like that picture was spread everywhere. Every media channel picked it up. I mean, it leads people to ask the question, What's going on here? It's not so straightforward. And that's something that I always am shooting for, is the brand is always on a journey to keep people engaged on a level to where they Asking questions rather than a brand just pushing answers back out. Marc Gutman 30:09 This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Oh, wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. Brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product or brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you, when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. And this results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out@www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. And so as you're as you're building this brand, is your building slow, like, What's going on there? I mean, did you know that? I mean it? Was it just a rocket ship from the beginning? Or were you? Tim Parr 31:20 No it was a shit show! It was my first business. Marc Gutman 31:29 What happens to what happened with that business were to ultimately go, Tim Parr 31:32 I sold it to Santa Cruz bicycles. Marc Gutman 31:35 it was it was not a good was that a good sale for you? Tim Parr 31:38 No, no. No, but you know, it's, it's it's live and learn. You know, I've been asked this a lot, you know, like, would you consider it a success? And what would you do different? And mainly people ask like, well, what would you do different. And I honestly wouldn't do a single thing different. I would have. I mean, it was pain, like to liquidate, you know the brand when you're young and and to take that one right in the chops, dealing with some unsavory invest investors. But come the end of the day, like we had a mission to change the way people thought about the bicycle. And I think we we helped in that in some way, shape or form. So it was a success. We learned a lot. It sucked in many ways at towards the end. But at the same time. I just I know it sounds cliche, but I just when seriously wouldn't change a single thing. Marc Gutman 32:43 And so coming out of that experience you you liquidate did you go work for Santa Cruz or did Tim Parr 32:47 no no's actually, like that same month, I got a call from Patagonia CEO. They're saying we have this surf business that's fledgling and can you come and fix it. Marc Gutman 32:59 And was Yvonne, Yvonne are the CEO at the time. Tim Parr 33:03 He was not his name is Michael crook. And that's who called me. And then Luckily, I did get to work with Avon because Avon was very passionate and wanted this thing to work, it was going to work. So he wanted to make sure that it was somewhat hands on so to this day, I consider myself incredibly lucky to have you know, driven up and down the California coast with him and go out to the ranch to Hollister ranch and just have long conversations with him about all kinds of stuff. Marc Gutman 33:36 So I imagined that had to be an incredibly well maybe not like what you're hoping for for someone to offer you a job if someone's gonna offer you a job after your first business to get the call from Patagonia to come get involved in something you love and care so deeply about surfing. I had to be pretty awesome. Tim Parr 33:53 It was great. It was great again lucky. So I was there a year year and a half and it was turned it around. It was successful. People were happy Yvonne was happy. And then from there started a brand consultancy. Marc Gutman 34:09 So why not stay at Patagonia why why start a brand consultancy? Tim Parr 34:15 Because we were living still up in up in Noe Valley, California, which was a plane flight away from Ventura. So I was literally flying down Monday mornings, and I'd leave the house about 4am to get to the airport for a six o'clock flight. I'd stay down to Ventura till Thursday night, and then fly home Thursday night and do it all over again Monday morning. And so I did that for a year. That was a big part why Marc Gutman 34:46 I'm exhausted just listeningto you talk about it, I can only imagine. I get it and so you decide that you're going to part ways and you you form a brand consultancy. Like how did that go? It was Tim Parr 35:00 Again, I see I feel that was another gift. I mean, anytime people welcome you into their home like that. So that was fun. So I called it par Goldman and burn. And there was no Goldman and there was no burn. But sounds. Yeah, it worked up until I was I was in the boardroom of LL Bean. And I just delivered a project that I'd spent. God knows how long eight months maybe. Can't remember. And it all went well. And I had my business card there picks it up. And the guy looks at he goes, Okay, so where's Goldman and burn? I go, Oh, you know, Oscar Goldman from the $6 million, man. Yeah, I guess. Well, I kind of wish that he was my partner, but he's not really my partner. And then David Burns from the talking heads. I love that guy, too. So I wish he was my partner, but he's not really my partner. Okay, I think it's funny. They didn't think it was funny. Marc Gutman 35:58 They didn't think it was funny? I mean, like, from from the, if you're gonna hire a brand consultancy, it might as well be one that's like, you know, having made a partner's of their boyhood dreams, you know, and Tim Parr 36:10 the logo looked really regal. You know, if the shield if you look really closely, there's like a Shaka inside shield. So that was like the giveaway that maybe something was up. Marc Gutman 36:23 Literally, you had a part with LLBean and as a customer, because Tim Parr 36:26 oh, no, no, no, it was it was over it because I had delivered the goods. And I was done. But it was the only time that that name didn't work. And, you know, I had great and fantastic clients like Kona mountain bikes. To this day, I'm still close friends with and Patagonia and a lot of outdoor industry or sports or surf related, talking about big, you know, big strategic thinking around brands. And I remember having one meeting where it was just painful, as in every consultant has, has these clients. And I just remember walking out thinking I'm done. And I remember reading this quote, which I thought is so brilliant. And it never occurred to me, but the quote was in order to do something different, you can't do things the same. Yeah. So if I don't want to do this anymore, like I need to stop doing this. Like right now. I can just stop and I need to do something different. And that's when I stopped consulting. Marc Gutman 37:31 And it was it was it as cut and dry. Is that did you fire? You know, fire any existing clients? Tim Parr 37:37 well, they were not? Oh, well, I was I was not I ran out a couple of clients. You know, I did tell him that I was kind of closing up shop. And yeah, and then that was that. Marc Gutman 37:49 What was your personal life? Like at this time? Did you have a family did you have? Yeah. And so what was that conversation like? Tim Parr 37:57 Well, it gets better because then I think a month after that, I decided that I was going to learn guitar and start a bluegrass band and tour the United States, the western United States. So my, my wife has a successful dance business in in Northern California. So we were able to I could work for the dance business, doing marketing related things while I was on the road playing music. So it all kind of worked out in a way. So I joined the family business for a while. And played music. Marc Gutman 38:36 Yeah, how did that that musical career go? Tim Parr 38:40 It was super fun. I mean, I didn't really know how to do any of it. So I spent time learning how to learn, which was interesting. And a lot of this with the music was a catalyst for what we're doing now with CADDIS because I had to learn I had to learn how to learn being at the time in my mid 40s, late 40s. And your brain is different. So there's a strategy to learning something difficult, like acoustic guitar, you know, flat picking bluegrass, and, and you don't want to waste time when you're that age. So I did a lot of reading on how to learn and then got a really good teacher. And I was practicing six, seven hours a day and to get up to speed. But a lot of that process is is context for your this whole aging platform of what is now CADDIS. This is actually before CADDIS was even created. So it's all it all kind of leads to where we are today. Marc Gutman 39:51 Yeah, and you mentioned that we we learn differently and their strategies for that. Like are you able to talk at like a high level like, what those are like? Tim Parr 40:00 So, I mean, specifically for music, let's just stick to a sentence. So it's concrete. But I'm sure you can apply it to a lot of different things. You have to really pinpoint what you want to learn, break it up to a bunch of different pieces. Don't spend any more than 15 to 20 minutes on, like, focus on it. And then go just like put it down and go do something else, like completely leave it and then go back and do it all over again. And you have to break everything down in small chunks of material and in time. And there's a consistency to it. Which makes your your learning curve, do this instead of this, which isn't 100% true, because eventually you do this and you plateau. And then you kind of need to find these incremental gains. But in a nutshell, it's and this is complete layman's terms, but it's break things into small chunks. Don't spend, you know, hours and hours kind of dwelling on IT spend like because your mind will wander, like spend 15 2030 minutes in a real deep dive, and then chill out and go do something else. And then come back to it and deep dive again. Marc Gutman 41:17 Well, thanks for sharing, that's awesome. Like, I just assumed we kind of had a normal learning pattern throughout our lives, I didn't realize that we, we learn differently as we as we grow older. Tim Parr 41:27 Yeah, the brain, the brain changes. And one of the best things you can do for your brain as you age is learn music. Because it's one of the few things if you think about it, you're using audio, you're hearing something, you're thinking about something you're acting, there's a physical action to it. And then you have to, you know, recreate there's the hand movement, his left hand, right, and it basically hits every lobe on your brain. Marc Gutman 41:56 Well, you just gave me permission to tell my wife, I'm going to read new guitar for the 10th time in my career. I think I picked it up and set it down too many times. But I love that. And so after the the music career did is that when you started CADDIS? Tim Parr 42:11 Yes. So it was actually during, you know, I thought I could do both. So I'm going to start this company. I'll tour I can work out of the van, you know, with my laptop. All good. That's a bad idea. Let the record show that that's a bad idea. Marc Gutman 42:34 You heard it here first. Why? Why do that you made the comment, I think earlier in our conversation that you probably really didn't have to do this like this, you didn't have to start another company. Sounds like that you had the ability to work for the family business and pursue your dream of playing bluegrass on the road. Like, isn't that enough? Like why? Like, why start a company? You know, at this point in your life and what what you have going on? Tim Parr 43:02 Yeah, it got to a point where I couldn't not do it. Like it was it was irresponsible of me like to do it and not to do it. If I didn't do it. Like it was like, Okay, my circle of friends are my contacts are the people to do this thing. If you don't do this thing. Someone's gonna do it. And it's, it may not be as good. So you have to go do this thing now. Marc Gutman 43:34 And were you starting to circulate this idea and get positive reinforcement? Or was this just bubbling up in the back of your own mind? Tim Parr 43:40 No Yeah, I was getting I was getting a mixed bag. Some people just didn't get it. And some people really got it. And it took a friend of mine. I just came back from playing. You know where it was it was we played the the the telluride Bluegrass Festival. And I remember coming as long as drive home and and I went to dinner a couple days later with a friend of mine. who at the time was, I believe he's the CEO of Nixon watches. And he asked me like, and I've known him forever. And he goes, well, where are you at with this reading glass idea? He didn't told me about it. Oh, yeah. Looking into this and I'm looking into that and, and he just he saw right through the bullshit. He goes, No goes you start that tomorrow. Okay, so then I came home and told my wife what Scott told me and and I, what do you think she's like, Well, what do you think? Oh, all right, let's let's do it. You know, because you got to have everyone on board because as we noted earlier, they're hard and they take a toll on everybody. So kind of got the sign off on it. And away we went, but It was that feeling of, like, you can't not do it. I was gonna say it's just too late, like it got to be too late. Marc Gutman 45:11 And so I love imagining like, you know, Scott just giving you the tough love. And Tim Parr 45:15 Oh, he gave me that the talk, dropping, Marc Gutman 45:18 Dropping truth bombs. And so like, what was the first thing you did after that? Like, how did you get started? Tim Parr 45:24 So I knew I didn't want it well. So I had I brought it up to a certain point. And I don't even know what that point was at this juncture. But then I knew I didn't want to do it alone. And I knew if I was going to do it, I wanted to do it with the best people that I've ever worked with. And so I made a couple of email calls, I think the first one was to Dustin Robertson, who was at bat country calm forever, who I'd known through my suavo days and ran by him. And he just sent me like this email back that says, Okay, let's go. And that was that. And so him and then it kind of trickled to my partner at suavo, which was, you know, 20 years prior, if not longer, getting him on board. A friend, Enoch Harris, those were the three cores. And then those people, new people, and then it grew out to think five people total by tally watch it, but I wasn't going to go it alone. I've done that before. And there's no reason to do it. You need really good, experienced people to get something like this going. Marc Gutman 46:46 Yeah. And that, that leads me I was gonna ask, like, as you're assembling this team, this kind of a tribute band, so to speak of, of players like we actually what are you looking for? Like, what do you what are you thinking? You know, because obviously experience but you know, that's, that's pretty easy. What else are you looking for in these in these people that you're bringing on board to help you achieve this goal? Tim Parr 47:07 Personality types. So I know that these things are rollercoasters. So, you know, people that the shits gonna hit the fan, and, you know, it's all gonna be okay. I mean, most of these people who I started with, I've known for over 25 years. So, you know, we're gonna succeed together or fail together. And both were okay. Marc Gutman 47:36 So now that you've built up catalysts, and it's it's got momentum, it's turning into this brand that stands for more than than just readers. But like, what's hard about it? Like, what don't we know? Like, what's hard about the reader business? Tim Parr 47:50 Oh, you know, it's not the reader business as hard as businesses that are hard. So, I mean, I wouldn't really say that the reader business is hard, because they're all hard, you know, it doesn't matter. I don't care what you're doing. This is something like I've given talks at, at colleges or whatever, and you get a lot of questions, and there's no easy path. It doesn't matter what it is, or what gifts you have, like, they're all hard, especially in I shouldn't say especially, that's biased, I'm biased to think that when you make stuff, like the amount of crap that can go wrong, on any given moment, you know, from shipments being bad to boot, you know, fabrics that bleed into, you know, and, and all kinds of, there's just a myriad of things that can happen. So, I mean, into right now, today, you know, the company is growing really fast. And we're just, you know, we're adding people at a fast rate. And, you know, the hardest thing is seeing it, it's always been the same thing. And we are a remote business. So that's part of the beauty. And the challenge is that we've always been a remote business. So So communication will always be a challenge. You know, how we move ideas around and get projects done. But I mean, in a nutshell, answer your question. I think they're all just hard. And Marc Gutman 49:23 So one of the things that I think is really cool and distinguishable about your brand is on the top of I don't even know what you call the top of the frame here. I'm sure you have. Tim Parr 49:31 I don't know either. Marc Gutman 49:33 Okay, there's not like a fancy name. I was like, he's gonna tell me it's like, Tim Parr 49:37 I'm not saying that there's not a fancy name. I'm telling you. I don't know what it is. Marc Gutman 49:42 But you have things like regular and Goofy over the eyes, imprinted on the frame, I think Yeah, a port and starboard one. Where does that come from? Like, where the whose idea was that and why why do you that? Tim Parr 49:55 Kind of why not? returns on these. So these are the Another Mr. cartoons. So there's what he says is Canada and that he, which is left and right in Spanish. There's port starboard Goofy, regular. It seemed like a good surface. Somehow. Marc Gutman 50:16 Yeah, under utilized. No one else is doing it. It's really, yeah, it's really, really cool. I mean, it's Tim Parr 50:24 Maximize your assets. Marc Gutman 50:28 And so you know, you just showed us the the Mr. cartoon, what's your favorite frame? Is it the Mr. Cartoon? Or is there Tim Parr 50:35 I don't have one. And I always compare this. I listen to Terry Gross, interviewed Keith Richards. And she asked him what his favorite song was. And she just, he just ripped her head off, saying how, ah, Jerry, it's like trying to pick a favorite child. You don't do that then other than that, so I kind of feel the same way. Marc Gutman 50:58 Yeah, well, I agree, kids. And I'll tell you right now I have a favorite. It's not always the same one. It changes from time to time, but at any given time, I do have a favorite one that says they don't lie. Tim Parr 51:11 Okay, you're probably true. me close Miklos? I would say. And this is my favorite Marc Gutman 51:18 Story about Keith Richards makes me think you know, I know that you work with a lot of like really cool influencers and ambassadors that are like aging athletes and surfers and musicians. But who have you seen where your product that you didn't have a relationship with that just really like blew your mind? You're like, I can't believe the day that they're wearing my stuff. Tim Parr 51:42 Man. Lately, there's been a few you know, Gwyneth Paltrow, and Julia Louis, Julianne Moore. Did girl. And I heard that Shepard Fairey has Pete Souza, the White House photographer. So they're just I mean, it's like Katie Couric? Yes, posting about them and doing okay. So like, I don't run in those circles, obviously. So it's, it's cool when you see that and people have, there's a lot of pride around the discovery. And the people that take selfies, you know, and are posting and saying that, like, I support this, you know, and without any prompting from us, I think it's fantastic. It means that the, the communication is leaving, and it's coming back, that it's been received. And to me that's like, I don't care if I die tomorrow, like when people do that with our brand. It's, it's the Holy Grail. Marc Gutman 52:54 And so as you're building this brand, as you're spreading this message, what's next for CADDIS? Where do you want this thing to go? Tim Parr 53:00 What we're gonna do is, is further develop this idea of owning age. So beyond reading glasses, and one of the first things we're doing is we're starting a newsletter that's going to grow into something bigger, but that's called humongous living. And then, from humongous living, we've just started a new nonprofit called music farming.org, which I'm super excited about, because the company from the get go, took 1% of gross revenue. And we and we gave it to music education programs across the United States. That's a soft spot for me personally, what was happening, we're growing so fast that that bucket of cash grew to a size that I couldn't manage. So the idea is, okay, let's pull it out of CADDIS create a separate entity to which other brands can contribute it into and we actually grow this thing where we can start helping people doing the hard work on the, you know, in the trenches, getting instruments, paying teachers, whatever they need, so that we can make make music education, something important again in this country. Marc Gutman 54:26 And that is Tim Parr, founder of CADDIS. As I reflect on our conversation, Tim said something to me that I can't get out of my head. He said, that's where the fun lies in changing people's minds. And I couldn't agree more. I thought Tim's journey was full of gold nuggets about building a brand and building a business. But if you were to take one thing away from this conversation, it's sell the message more than the product is a big thank you. In part and the cat is team. I love this mission you're on to help people own their age. I could probably use a little of that secret sauce myself. We will link to all things Tim Parr, CADDIS, and music farming, the nonprofit Tim discussed in the episode in the show notes. And if you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast@wildstory.com our best guests like Tim, come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode I like big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can't deny.

BGBS 059: Chris Kirby | Ithaca Hummus | It's Simple.Ithaca Hummus. America's fastest-growing hummus brand founded by Chris Kirby: CEO, trained professional chef, and mustache aficionado. Chris's career identity began in the restaurant world before he gained the courage to declare that he had a different path to follow, and returned to school. It was a tough decision to make, but this pivot lead to Chris stumbling upon a certain, special chickpea dish that needed his help. Did Chris Kirby find hummus or did hummus find him? We may never find out. From here we learn about the birth of Ithaca Hummus, which shot from a farmer's market stand to 7500 stores nationwide today using a small, yet big-hearted team of 8. We can't wait for you to hear all about Chris's journey to get here. Fair warning: After all that mouth-watering hummus talk, you may find yourself checking out ithacahummus.com/where-to-buy for your nearest retailer selling this delicious dish. We speak from personal experience. Quotes[17:27] It's almost like admitting failure, you know? Kind of like, “Oh, I thought one thing, and now, I don't think that anymore.” And it's not failure—it just feels like it in the moment. [25:32] It seems so simple on its face, and it really is at the end of the day. But you know, sometimes those simple ideas are the ones that really have the most impact. [29:43] I can't remember a moment where I had any hesitation that I was going to throw myself full-fledged at this. I think in the beginning like what was so just fueling me was having something of my own for the first time and just being able to experience these little success points along the way. [39:46] Our mission is to introduce America to its new favorite brand of hummus and we've got some proof points that we're actually, really doing that. And I think that's what gets us all excited on the team at Ithaca hummus is thinking about the success that we've been able to demonstrate on a mid-size scale, not full blown quite yet and dreaming about like, “Well, what happens when our distribution is four times the size that it is now?” ResourcesLinkedIn: Chris Kirby Website: ithacahummus.com Where to buy: ithacahummus.com/where-to-buy Podcast TranscriptChris Kirby 0:02 We were at the farmers market but also in the morning, I would deliver hummus to natural food stores and coffee shops and things. I just remember going in and seeing that just one had been purchased. And that was so energizing for me to just think that like, wow, like, I put that here yesterday and now someone that I don't even know like, picked that up and it's in their refrigerator and they're eating it right now. Like, wow, what a cool feeling that is and so there was a bunch of stuff like that, you know, that I've heard other people call entrepreneurial currency that I just latched on to and really use to energize. Marc Gutman 0:44 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the baby got backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs alike big back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Backstory. We are talking hummus. Yep, that delicious snack inside dish made of chickpeas. And before we get deep into hummus, trust me, you're gonna love this one. A gentle reminder. If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify. Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Better yet, please recommend this show to at least one friend. Maybe while eating hummus. It's time we bring the world together over the common love of the Baby Got Back story podcast and hummus. Which brings me to today's guest, Chris Kirby. Chris is a trained professional chef, and the founder and CEO of Ithaca Hummus, which is available in over 7500 stores nationwide. At the recording of this episode, back in 2013, Chris left his successful restaurant career as a chef to go back to college. And this is where it dawned on him. hummus needed his help. And he got to work perfecting a simple lemon garlic hummus recipe. and a month later he was selling it at the Ithaca farmers market on the weekends. And Chris's story is one of the entrepreneurial dream of taking what you love and finding a way to make a living at it. As you'll hear, I'm not sure if he found hummus or if hummus found him. But what Chris did find was a way to take something that already existed and make it better. And that's what being an entrepreneur is all about. He made it so much better, that he and the team if the gothamist are now shipping approximately 30,000 containers of hummus per week. That's a lot of hummus. But Chris Kirby didn't always know the hummus was in his future. And this is his story. I am here with Chris Kirby, the founder and CEO of Ithaca Hummus, Chris, thank you for coming on the show. So appreciate it. And like let's hop right into it. You know, I normally have a big dossier of questions for you. But as I was doing some pre show research I was on your website and most intriguing to me is your own bio on the website and a couple things that really stood out to me You say you're a ping pong champion. I'd like to hear a little bit about that. Chef Pitbull lover, but more importantly, mustache. afficionado. Tell me a little bit about that. Like the word is becoming a mustache afficionado come from Chris Kirby 4:02 Well, I luckily have my mustache on today. And you know, I wanted to be a little bit out there and embellish a little bit on the bio. But I've had a mustache since my son was born and went out to lunch with a friend. Like, right around the time my son was born had this mustache grown and he was like, You know what, I think you could be like one of those dads that just always has a mustache. And I had never thought about it that way and all of a sudden I just committed to it. Yeah, I'm really into it trimming with scissors. And you know, the whole nine yards is fun. Marc Gutman 4:37 Hashtag mustache dad. I love that my father had a mustache I was like is like, like kind of his defining attribute was he always had a mustache. So that's really, really great. And so let's hop into it. You know, Chris, you're the co founder of ethika hummus. We're gonna talk a little bit or a lot a bit about hummus and that's a baby got backstory first. We haven't dove deep on chickpeas and hummus yet, so I'm excited to do that. But when you're ready young boy, I mean, were you into hummus. Was that something that was even on your radar when you were? Let's just say like eight, nine years old? No, Chris Kirby 5:06 Not at all. I was really into food, and daytime TV cooking shows like Jacques papan. And Julia Child like, I would watch them daily. But Thomas didn't enter my life until much later on. Marc Gutman 5:22 And so tell me a little bit about those shows and what life was like for young Chris. I mean, most people today take for granted that we can just go to YouTube or go to a chef's page or a channel and catch up on all these shows. But like a Julia Child show that guy there was like, PBS, I was like some weird fringe kind of stuff. So kind of take me back there a little bit and tell me about what your childhood was like. And what turned you on to cooking at such a young age? Chris Kirby 5:45 Yeah, well, I had a great childhood, I was really fortunate to come from a loving, supportive family. Both my parents were great role models. My dad was the first one in his family to graduate college. And my mom's like, the most selfless person that I know. But I come from a family of four kids, which isn't huge, but for us, it was a lot. And my parents had to be somewhat selective with limited time and money. And that seemed difficult at times. But looking back, you know, I had everything that I needed to thrive and really learn the value of hard work from them. Why did I love cooking shows so much? That's such a good question. And it gets to like the core. And maybe it's a combination of like something so tangible, and like process. And also, I'm a visual learner. So I loved being able to watch and hear and just learn and get explanations behind. Like, why you tie a chicken this way? and etc. So it's a good question. I don't know, really, what about me really turned me on to that. But I know it stuck Marc Gutman 6:50 Yeah, and so were either of your parents in the restaurant space, or in the cooking or anything like that? Did you get that from them? Or was this something that was unique to Chris and just your thing? Chris Kirby 7:01 No, my mom was a good cook. I'm from Maryland. So there are some like food, rituals. They're like blue crabs and things like that, that really showed me how good food can be when it's prepared the right way with fresh ingredients. But neither one of my parents were in the food industry now. Marc Gutman 7:19 And so at that point, were you. So you're looking at cooking shows, you're enthralled by them? Are you actually kind of getting the ingredients together and trying to attempt some of these things. I mean, I always remember those shows were so interesting, because it took me forever. Like I just had this disconnect I could never understand like how they always had like these perfect bowls of ingredients, always measured out. Like for some reason, I just didn't understand that. They pre measure the ingredients, you know, like I was like, Wow, it's like, they've always got these perfect, like amounts of ingredients that they're just dumping into the recipe. And it was always just like really hard for me to I was like, that's so complicated and cool. But were you taking these and were you actually cooking? Or were you just like, was this a little bit of escapism? Were you just kind of thinking, wow, someday maybe Chris Kirby 7:59 I was experimenting horribly, like I think most people when they first get involved in cooking and excited about it, they enter the like, empty out the spice cabinet phase, like as the first one. And so I spent a long time there making things like, Hey, I made this try and people would be very polite and kind of choke things down now and again, but I just like tinkering around and then this was like a creative expression way to do that. Yeah, I was definitely practicing what I was inspired by watching on TV. I wouldn't say I was following verbatim though. Marc Gutman 8:37 Yeah, how serious were you? I mean, Was this something you were doing after school? and on weekends? It was it like something that was personal or private to Chris or Was this something that was starting to take over was this showing up at school was this showing up as a bit of a this is called a healthy obsession, for lack of a better word, Chris Kirby 8:54 I guess when it started to become real for me was I got my first job when I was 14 washing dishes at the local restaurant. And I remember looking at the cooks on the line and just idolizing them. I was like man, look at how fast and organized and efficient and just working so hard and doing such a good job and they just look badass to me. And at that time, my dream was to go to the Naval Academy, being from Maryland that's like a something that's in front of you right there. But I had this discussion about idolizing these line cooks at work with a guidance counselor in high school and she was like you know what, you sound really passionate about this, maybe you should think about culinary school. And that was kind of the direction and push that I needed to like really be confident about a path at that age and I just kind of geared towards that. Marc Gutman 9:48 That's crazy like at a young age like if someone you know I've talked about this before, but if someone just gives you permission tells you like hey, like you can do this I can influence it can have and really be pivotal and you're like oh I can like that's Really, really cool. And so when you talk about these line cooks and the chefs being badass, I mean, is that what you were really into? Was it the technical aspect? Was it almost like you saw them as like these great technicians or even craftspeople or artists, however you want to define it? Or were you enthralled with what was on the other end of the plate? You know what having a great meal man, like, Where were you following? on that spectrum? Was it more about like, kind of that technical skill? Or was it more like, hey, like, food is this like, amazing thing that brings people together or whatever it might be, I don't want to put the words in your mouth. Chris Kirby 10:31 I think it was a little bit of both. I think at 14, I was more, I think intrigued by like the badass theory of it. And then as I developed into my own career and culinary school, I started to really appreciate the technical side and the processes and the ingredients and the importance and then ultimately, got into my career as a chef and really started to fall in love with my ability to influence people's outlook on food and their diet. And I would get really motivated anytime someone said that they didn't like an ingredient like beets or something and wanted to change that Marc Gutman 11:11 Chip on your shoulder about beets or just to show people that they can be a good ingredient or something like that? Chris Kirby 11:16 Anything. Yeah, any of the above like chicken breasts always dry? Like, okay, well, I will make one that that isn't. And I think it was much about like having a little bit of an ego of like, trying to show that I can do something as it was about the ingredient, but healthy mix, like anything. Marc Gutman 11:35 And so sounds like that you were getting into high school, you decide to go to culinary school. Any doubts there? I mean, were your parents totally cool with that? Did they have any reservations? Or like, what was going on there? Did they say maybe you should look at other things? Or were you just like, gung ho and plus? Sounds like you abandon your dream of Annapolis. And I don't know how serious that was, like within your family or anything. But what's going on there as far as culinary school and the general attitude of everyone around you? Chris Kirby 12:01 Yeah, it was a big discussion at home. Because I was very serious about Annapolis, and the Naval Academy, I had an uncle who went to the Naval Academy, and I was really inspired by him early on. And I think my parents just felt like, Wow, what a drastic difference this would be. And how would that impact your life and his parents do? You know, they're just trying to look around corners and want to see their kids make the best decisions? And they were definitely concerned about the lifestyle that would come with being a chef, in the worst case, you know, that's where their mind went as normal, I guess, you know, is that going to be sustainable for the life that I may want to live one day, and ultimately, I ended up confronting all those things later in life, but they were totally concerned about it. Marc Gutman 12:50 And as he went to culinary school, where'd you end up going to culinary school? Chris Kirby 12:54 Johnson and Wales in Charlotte, North Carolina. Marc Gutman 12:57 I don't know much about culinary school. So was that something that you had set your sights on? Like, you're like, Hey, this is like where I really want to go? And if so why? Chris Kirby 13:03 I wouldn't say so. It was like, I knew that. I wanted to move south, a little warmer. And so I think that was probably in all honesty, the biggest draw the CIA is in Hyde Park in upstate New York, which was like colder than Maryland. And Johnson and Wales had just built this brand new campus in Charlotte. And they're also renowned culinary school. And I think that was ultimately what drove that decision, was it it was in North Carolina? Marc Gutman 13:32 And did you have any sense like of what kind of food you were drawn to what kind of cuisine what you wanted to do? Or at that point? Was it all exploration? Chris Kirby 13:40 It was very exploratory. I didn't have like a passion for any one specific cuisine or culture. In fact, kind of the opposite. I think at that stage, what was fascinating to me, it was like, there's a noodle in every single culture ever. There's some kind of grain dish, and it's just variation from one part of the planet to another based on abundance of other ingredients. And so I just wanted to learn more. I think from a cuisine perspective about how that all comes together and how everyone seemed to make it work. Marc Gutman 14:14 Did anything develop at Connor school? Did you start to see a path or a light? Or how did that shape up for you? Chris Kirby 14:20 I would say, Oh, really evolved at the beginning of culinary school. I also, I've always had a very entrepreneurial mindset. And so I would listen to some classmates talk about like wanting to work in fine dining, and it would make me think like, well, that's kind of like, stupid, because that's only 4% of the industry and really difficult to make money at and how is that going to actually work for you? Didn't seem like very good odds. And so in coronary school, I was definitely more like, how do I make really great food for the masses, and kind of like, focus on that, that actually evolved, you know? When I got into restaurants, I did become really passionate about fine dining, French cuisine and just the classic, you know, European techniques and recipes. Marc Gutman 15:10 And so when you left culinary school, it sounds like you had a bit of a worldview where you're like, Look, I'm going to make food for the masses. I mean, what was the plan? What did you think you were gonna do? When you left culinary school, Chris Kirby 15:22 I never really had ambition to be like a chef on TV, or I think I was what seemed most attainable and realistic. And the biggest goal that I could set for myself at the time was owning a restaurant group, like a bunch of restaurants with different concepts. And that didn't last very long. But I think if I did have a clear thought, at that time period, that was probably it. Marc Gutman 15:45 Done. So what happened, what changed your you know, we all come out of school and training we like with big vision and idealistic. And then I think the world shows us kind of how it's going to react as well. And we got to make some changes. So what happened for you? Chris Kirby 15:57 Well, I just kind of got burnt out on the lifestyle, and I was in it big time, just working like crazy. And alcohol fueled, and you know, that ended up kind of being something that I had to come to terms with later in life as well. And I can just feel it, this isn't gonna lead where I think I ultimately want to go. And it just something inside of me just felt like, I've got to do something different and maybe take a different path. I don't know what that is. But after about seven years, I felt like I needed to make a change. Marc Gutman 16:31 That's what that point like, where are we like, what restaurant? Are you working at? What's your title? What's your role? What's going on for you? Chris Kirby 16:38 So I went from working in Baltimore, where I grew up to Washington, DC, fine dining, French restaurant, then out to Las Vegas, then to Austin, Texas, which is where I ultimately stayed the longest. That's where I made the decision. After about three or four years of living in Austin, I was the chef at a wine bar in downtown Austin called mulberry. And yeah, I was just ready to ready to move on. Marc Gutman 17:04 That must have been hard. I mean, you know, you've spent a good chunk of your life at this point. As a chef, that's your identity, you declared it that's your training. I mean, how to be hard to make that decision was? Chris Kirby 17:20 It was I mean, I think I knew that I needed to make it long before I actually mustered up the courage. It's almost like admitting failure, you know, kind of like, Oh, I thought one thing, and now, I don't think that anymore. And it's not failure, it feels like it in the moment. But it definitely took a lot for me to leave my life in Austin, and all my friends. And what I ended up doing was moving back to Baltimore and going back to community college for a year to figure things out, really, and then apply and think about the next step. Marc Gutman 17:54 And what did you study and figure out? Chris Kirby 17:56 I took some basic courses, basic business, accounting, finance, things that I could really tap into that entrepreneurial spirit that I knew I had. So I did a year at community college, and ended up applying to a handful of schools to finish my bachelor's degree. And Community College was really just like, let's be smart about this, like, let's take the courses that I can transfer and like, into whatever the next school would be Marc Gutman 18:28 Yeah, and where was that? Chris Kirby 18:29 Shockingly, I ended up getting into the hotel school at Cornell, which sounds like very fancy Ivy League, and it is, but I was like, shocked when I got in. And I was out of place there, for sure. I was 26. And all my classmates were 18. And I'm convinced to this day that the way that I got in was my essay, you know, how you write the letter and everything and as part of the application and I told them exactly what I was going to do. I said, I'm going to come to Cornell, and I'm going to start a business as soon as I get there. And I'm going to use all the professors as consultants, and I'm going to take everything that I'm learning and apply it in real time to the business that I build. I don't know what that's gonna be I'll figure it out when I get there. But yeah, I think that's what sparked their interest. Marc Gutman 19:22 Did you know when you went to Cornell, I mean that this business that you're gonna start that you didn't know what it was, but you knew what you wanted it to be? Did you know it was gonna be in the hospitality space? Because Cornell I mean, as you know, and but most of our listeners might not know, I mean, that's one of the best, if not the best hospitality programs in the country. I mean, it's renowned for that. And so thinking that were you like, hey, like, I'm gonna do something in this food slash hospitality space. Are you just not sure? Chris Kirby 19:51 Yeah, I totally did. I wanted to figure something out that I can parlay like all the experience and knowledge of food that I had built. And definitely stay in that lane for my own business. But yeah, my girlfriend at the time, and now what I think I told her that maybe what I'll do is I'll go to Africa, and I'll work at a McDonald's and learn the like processes of how they make that work on such a huge scale, and then apply like just better food to that down the road. That was one of many, many ideas. And I'm shocked that she listened to that was like, Okay, yeah, it sounds good. It's a little far fetched. But… Marc Gutman 20:32 So did you work at McDonald's? Chris Kirby 20:34 No, I didn't end up doing that. No, no, no, no, I didn't, you know, the hotel school there as I knew it was right for me, because everything was tailored toward the hospitality industry. So I got it, you know, it wasn't totally outside of my purview of what I understood. And so they say that instead of ball bearings, they talk about biscuits, and you know, and like economics and finance, which is true. So just tailored to what I already know. Marc Gutman 21:01 So you show up at Cornell, you're all fresh face, you have big dreams, you're an old freshmen. What was the first business idea? was it? Was it like a hummus? Or was it something else Chris Kirby 21:10 It was, I knew within a week of being an Ithaca, that this was a product that was missing in the local food economy and food scene. There's a an amazing farmers market, the Ithaca farmers market, that it didn't take very long, you know, I spent a weekend at the farmers market, and hit up greenstar Co Op, which is the local natural food store. And I was looking for what I could do locally that would be successful, but also on a national level, like, what's a category or type of food that's available in grocery stores that needs the most help from someone like me. And I just felt like that's where I could add the most value. And hummus just happened to check both of those boxes. Marc Gutman 21:59 This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline. or even your product or a brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again, in this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out@www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. Why hummus? Like why did it Need help? Like what don't we get? Because I go to the market and ton of hummus. There's other competitors out there like what did you see? Chris Kirby 23:10 So hummus is you know, I think most people would agree if you eat a lot of hummus that the best time is comes from like a local restaurant or a local producer. It's made fresh and some of the nationally available stuff and brands like it's just kind of a little bland, and not really all that exciting, certainly not as good as it can be when it's fresh. And so I saw first of all the opportunity to be that local hummus in Ithaca. And on a longer view, the opportunity for someone like me to figure out how to replicate that quality on a national level through the commercialization process. How do we commercialize something that's as high quality as a local product without totally ruining and destroying all the things that make that local product good in the first place? Marc Gutman 24:00 And I'm so just intrigued and amazed by this because I mean hummus, like you probably know better than I have done our research on this. It's been around for 1000s of years, right? Like This isn't like, like hummus has been around for you know, much longer than just about everything. And we've had it and it's so it's not like also, I mean, this isn't like the 60s and like the advent of like natural foods. I mean, I find it just so interesting that there was this opportunity. And so prior to all this, like were you sitting around, were you kind of like this, like hummus snob or hummus kind of sewer where you're like thinking like, Oh, this isn't good, or they, but it was purely looking at it more from a business perspective. Chris Kirby 24:37 Yeah, it was trying to recognize an opportunity that I could take advantage of now and in the future. And that's how I would describe for me at least when I say I haven't this entrepreneurial mindset, it's just looking at things and thinking like, I could do that better. You know, maybe there's a way What if we change this or did this better did this different and you know, yeah, they're brilliant. 1000s of ideas that spark out of that way of thinking, and this just happened to be one that was like, Man, this really clicks, I don't need to reinvent Thomas, I just need to make really good, authentic commerce available to the mass market. Marc Gutman 25:17 And as you went, and you told your girlfriend at the time, now your wife, or you told your professors, hey, I am going to be the hummus king of Africa, then I'm going to be the hummus king of the nation. Where did they say Chris Kirby 25:30 Mixed reactions? You know, I mean, it seems so simple on its face, and it really is at the end of the day. But you know, sometimes those simple ideas are the ones that really have the most impact. Marc Gutman 25:44 So maybe walk us through a little bit like what happened. So you're at Cornell, and you're going to use your professors as your unofficial board and your consultants and you have this idea for hummus, like, what happens? Do you just start blending in your kitchen? Like, how do you how to kind of get this thing going? Chris Kirby 25:59 Yeah, so first of all, food safety is something that I was very well trained on as a chef and I had never produced a product made for resale. That plus like, how do I start a business? How do I form an LLC? Or now what do I is an S corp or a C Corp? Or what? So those two questions like forming the business and figuring out how to operate and make this product safely so that it could be distributed to people and they weren't going to get sick? were the first two things that I tackled, and then it became about where am I going to make it and where am I going to sell it. And I was very lucky to find a summer camp in Ithaca that had a food safe kitchen and you know, everything that I needed, basically to get started. For $200 a month, I rented this place and would go and make test batches and eventually, like batches for sale at night. And I would take it to the farmers market on the weekend and sell it there. Marc Gutman 27:00 And so prior to this, how would you rank your level of hummus chef or had you shut up any hummus prior to this? Or like, are you just kind of figuring this out at this point? Chris Kirby 27:11 Yeah, so I had had some hummus training, you could say, throughout my voluntary career, I was really close with one of my friends in DC at the restaurant I told you about who was Lebanese and he would make on Sundays when it was his turn family meal. And hummus was always a big part of that. And what I loved about his hummus compared to like the stuff you could buy at the grocery store was the fresh lemony, like garlicky, it was just tasted fresh, very intense flavor wasn't bland or boring at all. So yeah, I learned how to make comments from my buddy fi's all. And that's basically the recipe that I used when I started at the comments and still use today. Marc Gutman 27:52 Yeah, in addition to it being fresh, like what makes a great hummus, like what's everyone else getting wrong? And what's it good doing right with what you can share? Obviously, Chris Kirby 28:01 I can be totally open about what we do. I think I've got to be very careful because hummus is one of those like regionally funny things like Israeli hummus is very different than Lebanese hummus. Lebanese hummus is what we make it's lemony, a lot more fresh lemon, less tahini, Israeli hummus has a lot more tahini in it, and it doesn't really have the fresh zing like the product that we make. So to me, what makes it great is very fresh ingredients. From a package perspective. I think where it goes wrong for a lot of brands is they actually heat the product after it's blended and everything is you know, mixed in. When you think about what that does to food when you heat it up fresh lemon juice or even garlic, for example, like it really changes the flavor profile. And for me, I think it's just really important to capture that fresh, raw flavor of the ingredient. Marc Gutman 28:54 Before I forget, what's your favorite dipping apparatus into the hummus? What do you think's the best Dipper? Chris Kirby 29:01 Also not like historically culturally accepted? I wouldn't say but I'm a big raw broccoli. I like raw broccoli and cauliflower. For my homies Personally, Marc Gutman 29:12 I love that. So here we are. I imagine you're at this summer camp, you're renting out this kitchen you're if you've got like hummus everywhere. You're like trying to figure it out. What's going on? Are you just like, and you're going to school, by the way if I got this right, so like are you like, enthralled with this? Are you like just no one can take the wind out of your sails or any given point. Are you like, what did I get myself into? Like I'm putting a big bet on hummus right now. Like Like what was going on for you right there. Chris Kirby 29:38 It's funny, and I don't know why I felt so strongly about it. But I can't remember a moment where I had any hesitation that I was going to throw myself full fledged at this. I think in the beginning like what was so just fueling me was like having something of my own for the first time. And just being able to experience like these little success points along the way, like, we were at the farmers market, but also in the morning, I would deliver hummus to natural food stores and coffee shops and things. I just remember going in and seeing that just one had been purchased. And that was so energizing for me to just think that like, wow, like, I put that here yesterday, and now someone that I don't even know, like, pick that up, and it's in their refrigerator. And they're eating it right now. Like, wow, what a cool feeling that is. And so there was a bunch of stuff like that, you know, that I've heard other people call entrepreneurial currency that I just latched on to and really use to, to to energize me. Marc Gutman 30:44 And so that's all like, good and gets you going. But imagine like, you're selling at some coffee shops and some natural grocers, your your local, you're at the farmers market. At what point do you look at this thing and go like, it could be bigger than that, you know, this could actually be a business not like, a bit of a hobby, like when do you like really start to get the sense that maybe I'm onto something and I have to think to that, at some point, you're starting to gain maybe a little bit of tension from your competitors and other people in the space. So that's sometimes a good thing, because it means you're becoming relevant. But it also has to be a little scary. So like as you're growing like, what's going on? Are you thinking like, how do I take this to the next level or just kind of enjoying the ride? Chris Kirby 31:28 I'm always thinking about what's the next step? What's the next step? For sure. I think what really keyed me on to thinking that this really could be big was the reaction that I would get from people at the farmers market. I mean, anyone that I speak with now about how do I start a food or beverage, you know, business, I always recommend starting out in a channel where you are standing face to face with people who are potentially going to be your customers, and just sampling them and getting their reaction to getting their feedback. And in some cases, because if you do that enough, and you've got the right product, and you're getting the right reaction from people, and that alone will tell you like, wow, if I could just make this bigger, how could it not be successful? If I could do that the right way? I just felt like I was onto something for sure. And you know, also, I think it didn't hurt that I was in Ithaca, New York, which is a very granola kind of town. It's like the old saying, if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere Well, in the hummus, business and ethic in New York. I think that's definitely true. Marc Gutman 32:40 And so what did you do? I mean, how did you make that leap? Like, how did you take it from farmers market to something bigger, like regional and then national? Chris Kirby 32:49 Yeah, very, very incremental steps. When I started, we had a seven day shelf life on the product. So it was like, how do we get it to 14 and then 20, and then 25 and 35? And same thing with distribution? It was what can I physically deliver out of the back of my car? And how many farmers markets can we go to in a weekend with more people to grow the business, which was all we could figure out how to do it the time, especially with a very, very short shelf life, it was really the only thing that we could do. But over time as awareness of what we were doing, and the brand and the product grew, so did the shelf life and so did the size of our business and revenue and profit and just was a great way to just fuel from within, you know, kind of take the scrappy, not go out and raise a ton of money like way too early route, and I'm so glad I did it that way. Marc Gutman 33:47 And is it self funded? Or do you end up going out and raising money to fuel the growth? Chris Kirby 33:52 We eventually did raise money from our manufacturer Actually, I moved on from the summer camp kitchen into a factory of my own which was like the dream like I built out this 10,000 square feet of like, it was insane. I felt like Willy Wonka. But after I like got into that and started managing it, it was insane and just way more than I could handle at the same time as everything else. So ultimately, I ended up partnering with le Desiree foods in Rochester, New York not far from us and Ithaca and after a year of just manufacturing the product they wanted in and couldn't think of a better more strategic partner than not Marc Gutman 34:31 so incredible. And so you started this business with nothing more than an idea started $200 a month rental in a summer camp kitchen. didn't really even know too much about hummus other than having experience from Sunday dinners. And here you are on the website it says you're the fastest growing hummus company in the nation which is an incredible accolade. So what does going from nothing to today? What does it go look like in terms of sighs and how much hummus Are you pumping out? Chris Kirby 35:04 Well, we're still very, very small and scrappy. We're a team of eight people, which is incredible to me. And I mean, to a degree, I think you could look at all of us very experienced and knowledgeable and smart, hard working all that stuff. But in one way or another, I think anybody on our team would admit, like, I have no business doing what I do every day sometimes, which is, I think, a healthy thing. So we very much have that like small, scrappy mentality, which I love. And we went from that farmers market stand and a couple stores in Africa to today, we're at 7500. stores nationwide, and how much how much do we produce? It's a really good question, I would say, of the containers that you buy in the store, 10 ounces, you know, 25 to 30,000 of those a week at this point, and growing. Marc Gutman 35:56 So does that like blow your mind? Like, would you say that number that is? Chris Kirby 35:59 Like crazy. It's it's not? It's not? I used to, you know, well, we used to apply every label by hand. And actually, when we started, we didn't buy labels, because we couldn't afford them. We just put paprika oil on the top for a little bit of like branding, and to think of going from there to where we are now is definitely mind blowing, in hindsight, Marc Gutman 36:21 In terms of that volume of actual packages, like how do you purchase chickpeas? Like is it by the bushel is it by the crazy by the ton, Chris Kirby 36:32 It's by the train load, actually, our facility has a rail that comes in to the back of it. And it's awesome, because when I first started buying chickpeas, I would like go to restaurant depot and like get a sack of chickpeas. And then eventually I got hooked up with some growers out in Washington State in Pullman, Washington, actually. And they would put it on a rail car from Pullman to this depot in Chicago, and then we would buy it, buy the pallet from there. And yeah, we've moved up in the food chain. And now we just get the rail car strength sent straight into the factory, which is really cool. Marc Gutman 37:11 How many rail cars of chickpeas are coming your way? on a regular basis? Chris Kirby 37:16 I'd have to check on that. So don't quote me. But I think we're definitely moving through multiple rail cars a month at this point. Marc Gutman 37:23 That's so cool. And what's hard about this like, like you said, it's simple sounds like it's all gone pretty much to plan but like What don't we know, like what's really hard about doing what you're doing and maintaining ethika Hama spray and ethika hummus brand? Chris Kirby 37:39 Yeah, if I portrayed it as overly simplified, I can guarantee you that it has not been just so many challenges that I never thought in the moment, sometimes I would be able to overcome that just, you know, end up ended up working out, I would say, what's been hard for me consistently throughout the business is learning how to grow myself professionally and as a leader, as fast as the business has grown. And as fast as my team that I rely on needs me to grow and really step into that role the best that I can. Marc Gutman 38:15 So how are you doing that? What kind of things are you doing to fuel your own growth and to become a better leader? Because I think that's something that a lot of entrepreneurs, look, none of us are born entrepreneurs number is born with this knowledge, we learn it, we educate ourselves, we come up a lot of times out of need, rather than you know, being ahead of time. It's like we're catching up or something of that nature. But like so what are you doing to stay up to speed and make sure that you're developing as a leader, Chris Kirby 38:40 I spend more time now just not just thinking and not feeling like I've got to make decisions and do things like so quickly. And so just off the cuff sometimes. So I've definitely slowed down a little bit. And I've really tried to not react to things or overreact to things as much as I am naturally inclined to do. I've also surrounded myself with some great people, and I could name names, but everyone on my team and even some people outside of the team that I'm more open with in terms of weaknesses now so that they can understand that and they can help backfill and I don't know, this is a long winded, probably more complex answer a complicated answer than I wish I could give. But I don't know, I just if I can sum it up, I've just tried to be more self aware and transparent about what that actually looks like. Marc Gutman 39:35 And as it relates to the business, like what are you most excited about right now? Is there something happening with Ithaca or something that you see in the future that is keeping you going and keeping you excited? Chris Kirby 39:46 Well, our mission is to introduce America to its new favorite brand of hummus and we've got some proof points that we're actually like really doing that and I think that's what gets us all all excited on the team at ethika. hummus is thinking about like, the success that we've been able to demonstrate on a mid size scale not full blown quite yet and dreaming about like, well, what happens when our distribution is four times the size that it is now. And we've had that much more time in market to generate that much more awareness and that much more trial? What kind of impact is that going to have on the category and on the diets of Americans in the grander scheme? Marc Gutman 40:34 Is that the metric? Like Is that how you will know that you're America's favorite brand of hummus? Chris Kirby 40:40 Well, I would say, share of category would be that metric. But how will we know that we've accomplished that goal? I don't know. I think we just day by day focused on what can we do today, to grow a little bit more and keep pushing the ball down the field. Marc Gutman 40:56 And as we come to a close here, Chris, like, I want you to think back to that young boy who is watching Julia Child is watching those cooking shows and just thinking, being intrigued by cooking. And what if he ran into you today? What do you think he'd say, if he saw what you were doing? Chris Kirby 41:14 I don't think he would fully understand it. And probably just think it's like boring. Start cutting up some chickens or something so that I could this is more exciting, you know, but at the same time, I think if he would probably think it's pretty cool. You know, if he really understood it, and could think about it the way I think about it now, I certainly do. And I'm having a lot of fun and very fulfilling and rewarding a lot of hard work, but I feel grateful and blessed every day. Marc Gutman 41:44 In that is Chris Kirby, founder and CEO of Ithaca hummus. As I reflect on our conversation, so much of what Chris shared resonated with me. But if I were to highlight one thought, it was his comment about making the switch from being a chef from declaring that his dream had changed. And he wanted to do something different. And while it could be labeled as a failure, it wasn't. It was merely a change in what he wanted in his evolving world view. And as I think back on my own pivots, my own changes that I've at times labeled as failures. This is a resonant reminder that they weren't failures at all. Just a change in what I wanted. A big thank you to Chris Kirby and Ithaca Hummus team. We can't wait to see you become the number one hummus brand in America and then the world. We will link to all things Chris Kirby and Ithaca Hummus in the shownotes. And if you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast@wildstory.com our best guests like Chris come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode a lot big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can't deny. ‍

BGBS 058: Kris Fry | Smartwool | It's an Experiment Kris Fry is a brand pro in love with the magic of ideation and storytelling, armed with the awareness that nothing is more powerful than a well-planned strategy. He is currently the Global Creative director at Smartwool, but has had the opportunity to lead concept, design, and experience for incredible brands like Oakley, Wheel Pros, HEAD, SCOTT Sports, Coors, Eddie Bauer, Punch Bowl Social, and The North Face. As you'll hear in the episode, Kris is fascinated by finding the connection points between consumers and branding in order to find the right brand message that inspires consumers beyond just purchase, to join a community. Our interest in where it all began lead Kris down the path of explaining a world of self-expression, liberation, and rave-style jeans—otherwise known as skateboarding culture—which was pivotal for introducing him to brand expression and has remained an underlying current of inspiration to this day. We go along with the journey that enthralled Kris with the blend of visual language and storytelling, eventually leading him to an opportunity with Smartwool that he wears proudly today. Quotes [10:07] That balance of branding and consumers and how they interact is one of the greatest sociology experiments that I just love and nerd out on and I find it fascinating, like it's an experiment—this interaction and this back and forth. Sometimes breaking out a little bit of a crystal ball and doing some guesswork, having some data to throw in there. [Those] foundational elements help guide the creative to come up with that brand-right message that just connects with people and hopefully inspires them beyond just purchase. It inspires them to join a community. [10:49] One of our main goals is to get people outside. It's not about what you do outside or how well you do it, we just think there's this beautiful inherent thing about nature. [12:02] There's just so many powerful elements that I think brands have a responsibility to really drive with consumers. I think there's a lot of brands doing some really cool stuff and activating in cool ways and opening up conversations and exposing communities to things they've never seen before. I think brands are inspiring. [14:06] I think skateboarding and finding skateboarding and that community for me, essentially changed my life and made me really recognize brands—what they stood for. And I started to kind of badge and, with the little money I had, could adopt these brands, because they meant something and they said something about me. And so I might not have recognized the power of them then, or that I would want to pursue that as a career, but art has always been a part of it. [18:17] Another thing that I've always loved about skateboarding is they always find a way to get back underground and come back out with a new look, feel that's unique to the culture in that moment, and I can't think of another sport activity or movement that has been able to do that decade over decade over decade. Resources Instagram: @kfrydesign LinkedIn: Kris Fry Kris Fry: Smartwool Website: smartwool.com Podcast Transcript Kris Fry 0:02 Every generation a parent's right is trying to just not do what their parents did them. And I think for me, I've come to a place where I haven't felt that shame in a long time. That a lot of that is who you surround yourself with and things that you do that make you happy and build confidence in who you are as a person. And that's kind of been me like I've had to find a sense of worth and confidence in myself and value in myself that you know how to use quite a bit to get out of that kind of shameful feeling. But, you know, design and art and those things, music, especially like, those are all things that I think have really helped me figure out who I am. And you know where I want to go. Marc Gutman 0:52 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory. We are talking to Kris Fry, global creative director. It's Smartwool. And before we get into my conversation with Kris, if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Better yet, please recommend this show to at least one friend who you think will like it. It may be even one enemy who will like it. It's time we bring the world together over the common love of the baby got backstory podcast. Today's guest is Kris Fry global creative director at Smartwool. And I'm gonna let you know right now, we don't talk a whole lot about Smartwool. That's because Kris took the conversation in a wonderfully raw and fascinating direction. Kris has had the opportunity to lead concept design and experience for some incredible brands like Oakley, wheel pros, head, Scott sports cores, Eddie Bauer, Punchbowl, social and the North Face. He is currently the global creative director at Smartwool, which is part of the Vf Corporation. And as you'll hear, he describes himself as a freelancer, a failure startup and an agency executive. He's worked brand side agency side, and more often than not somewhere in between. Kris says in his words. I'm in love with the magic of ideation and storytelling, but also believe that nothing is more powerful than a well planned strategy. This is a brand pro and marketer after my own heart. I've known Kris for years, we've worked together in the past. And I didn't know about 95% of what he shares in this episode. In this is his story. I am here with Kris Fry, the global creative director at Smartwool. Thanks for joining us, Kris. Really appreciate it. And as we get into the episode here, like what is a global creative director, it's Smartwool. Like what does that mean? Kris Fry 3:49 Thanks for having me. Great question. Well, essentially, I am a creative director at Smartwool. So I essentially drive all of the marketing materials, marketing materials, storytelling efforts, branding, really kind of drive the purpose and values of the brand globally. As you know, our brand is mostly us focused and based, you know, we are growing in some key markets, specifically Canada, Europe, em EA. And so my job globally, is to make sure that the brand is not only consistent, but compelling in all of those regions, and work with kind of different marketing teams within the regions to kind of help them you know, keep consistent and make sure that kind of those brand values and that purpose for the brand is really driven home at every communication point. Marc Gutman 4:40 Yeah, and just so our listeners know, and I'm sure about 99.9% of them are familiar with Smartwool but in case they're not, I want you to give us a little kind of blurb on who and what Smartwool is. Kris Fry 4:55 Awesome. Yeah, so Smartwool is a apparel company. So started in the sock business, they were the first ones to make merino wool based performance socks in steamboat, Colorado. And for 26 years, they have been kind of crafting and re crafting and kind of growing into other spaces like apparel and accessories, and really kind of taking this merino wool expertise and this knitting expertise that came from socks. And then growing that across many categories, base layer, mid layer, finding every kind of which way you can twist and knit wool. Marc Gutman 5:35 Yeah, and you know, that makes me feel dated, because I remember when Smartwool was like a new novel thing, you know, and Brian, Marina Marino sport socks were like, this, this crazy new concept. And now here we are 26 laters, I haven't realized it's, it's been that long. And let's get back a little bit to this description of global creative director. Because before we move past that, I really want to define that a little more like, what's your What are your days? Like? I mean, are you sitting around? Is that the way that I like to imagine the fantasy that you're in some studio? And you're splashing paint? And you're ripping up paper? And you're, you know, mocking up things? Or is it? Is it something completely different than that? Kris Fry 6:17 Well, I'm gonna be honest, some days are like that, for sure. You know, ideating generating ideas comes from all kinds of different spots, right? Whether that be gathering inspiration from books, but my main objective is to lead a team and inspire them. And to help them solve larger brand problems. I also worked very closely with the head of global marketing, to really kind of define the strategies, that kind of, you know, the strategies that essentially kind of define only the campaign's but you know, all of the kind of go to market product stories that we're going to tell seasonally. And so I work quite a bit with the product development team, as well, as our design directors suggests who really runs kind of the product design program, she's essentially kind of my, my peer and partner in crime to really kind of, at every angle, make sure that the aesthetic of the brand is coming through storytelling, those kind of bigger product thematics, and consumer insights, how they're kind of really driven into the product, as well as into all of our marketing efforts. And then, yeah, so a day like today, you know, I'll start off with a, you know, kind of a team leadership meeting, I guess, with, you know, a group of folks that I brought on to kind of help work on the team in a different way. So writers or directors, designers, and then you know, might slide into a strategy meeting, to really kind of define how we're going to be brief certain projects, and, and then I still take a pretty hands on approach to the work. So sometimes I'm, you know, blocking out a couple hours on the calendar to, as you say, like, rip up paper, get creative, get inspired. And then yeah, sometimes, you know, it's a larger leadership things. Right now, we have some kind of fundamental brand things that we're developing, specifically around kind of identifying our design target, who they are, what motivates them, and really kind of trying to drive this idea of being consumer and digital first, for smartwatches. Right? Smartwool is a brand that has largely been wholesale driven, and just with the changes, you know, even before COVID, right, the world of wholesale is changing. And so we're trying to identify ways to really support our wholesale and specialty partners, make sure the brand and that brand love is being generated and resonated from those partners, as well as taking an active look at strategically, you know, how we, how we bring more digital activations to life so we can really grow our brand and bring, you know, new consumers to it. Marc Gutman 9:03 And so you and I have talked about this before, you've mentioned it several times, just in that last, that last reply, talking about brand and brand aesthetics, and storytelling, and so you know, that those are all topics that are near and dear to my heart, like, like, what why is it important that your almost entire focus is is on that, like, why does that matter? Kris Fry 9:23 I think there's, for me a bunch of different reasons, like I think, I don't know, I think brands have an opportunity to, to do some pretty powerful and meaningful things beyond just selling products, right? I think there's opportunity, especially with, you know, culturally, the sea change that is happening, for brands to have a point of view, right, and I think to to become more than just kind of valuable products, right, and, and stories are really kind of the key driver for the for identifying kind of those connections. points with consumers, right. But I do think it's, you know, for me, I don't know the brand, that balance of branding and consumers and how they interact, I think is like one of the greatest, like sociology experiments that I just like, love and nerd out on. And I don't know why. But I find it fascinating, right? Like, it's an experiment like this interaction and this back and forth. And sometimes breaking out a little bit of a crystal ball and doing some guesswork, having some data to throw in there that's, you know, foundational elements to help guide the creative, to come up with that brand right message that just connects with people, and hopefully inspires them beyond just purchase, right inspires them to, to join a community and for smart goals, specifically, right, it's one of our main goals is to get people outside, right? It's, it's not about what you do outside or how well you do it, we just think there's this beautiful inherent thing about nature. And our products, you know, not only provide protection, but they also provide comfort. And hopefully those things, you know, are we like to say like, our main job is essentially to ignite transformative moments for consumers, right. And that come through in product and our communication. And to me, that's why branding is important, because it sets a path and a tone that everybody can rally behind. And hopefully, our customers and consumers feel that, you know, there's nothing like throwing on a snappy new pair of socks. And you know, when you pull that toe over, and you snap that Smartwool logo over the toes, that to me is a transformative moment, right? You, you feel all of the innovation that went into the sock that you may not be able to see, you feel the power of natural materials. And, you know, that should give you this sense of you're taking really good care of your feet by making you know, this purchase from this fun loving brand. Right? So very long winded answer to your question, as usual. But I don't know, there's just so many powerful elements that I think brands have a responsibility to really drive with, with consumers. And, and I think there's a lot of brands doing some really cool stuff and activating a cool ways and opening up conversations and exposing communities the things they've never seen before. I think brands are inspiring. Marc Gutman 12:23 And I couldn't agree more. I mean, you describe yourself as nerding out on brand and the social experiment. I agree. I think it's just this incredible dance, it's always changing. It sometimes is maddening. It's so fickle. But that's what I think also keeps us coming back for more. You know, it's never it's never static. And so where did you grow up? Kris Fry 12:43 I actually grew up in Littleton Colorado, not too far from home. Yeah. Marc Gutman 12:48 Colorado native, we don't we don't encounter those very often, not just on the baby gun, podcast, but just in, in real life, except this next generation, like all our kids will be the Colorado natives. But as you're growing up there in Littleton, Colorado, I mean, did you know that you were gonna be drawn to this, this idea of branding, and even in a broader sphere, being a creative? Kris Fry 13:12 I don't think I knew about, you know, or wasn't, I wasn't really attracted to brands or branding, until maybe, I'd say high school, junior high school level, right? Like before that, you know, didn't matter. It was just whatever I could throw on and go ride my bike, and get outside. But being a creative for sure. I was always into art, and drawing and painting, you know, in junior high moment was like, I always mean, my buddies always talk about like, junior high, I feel like is used to be this defining moment where you're either going to be go down a good path, or a bad path, right, and start experimenting a little bit like that seventh to eighth grade. And I chose, you know, to try some some things in my life at that moment, right. But I was also introduced to a totally different world that took, you know, drawing and painting to another level of expression, right? music changed, art changed. And I think skateboarding and finding skateboarding and that community for me, essentially changed my life, and made me really recognize brands, what they stood for. And, you know, I started to kind of badge and, you know, with the little money I had, right could can adopt these brands, because they meant something and they said something about me. And so I might not have recognized the power of them then, or that I would want to pursue you know that as a career, but art has always been a part of it. Being creative has always been a part of it. You know, Music has always, you know, been a key part of my life. I'm a failed musician many times over, right? Like, I would love to be able to play the guitar. I've tried many times and failed, right? But it's something that's always been like a underlying current and powerful inspiration point. forever. Marc Gutman 15:01 Well, and you and I share that in common. I have multiple guitars that I've purchased throughout the years that I've, you know, that I've started playing never successfully as well. And I've got a nice little collection. So we got that going. And as well, and I don't know if this is my bias, I don't know if it's who I tend to No, but there really does seem to be this interesting thread through the creatives that have been on this show that have all have gotten to a really great point in their careers where they were really inspired and informed by skateboarding. And then, you know, in another layer of that being music, that's come up a lot, too. But I mean, what do you think it is about that skate culture that lends itself to being this this foundational, either community or just inspiration for for creatives, especially those, you know, if our generation? Kris Fry 15:57 Yeah, I mean, for me, it was this idea of self expression. And just, I don't know, being a totally unique individual, like I felt that come through with, you know, every one of my favorite skateboarders, every one of the skateboard brands, right from the artists, they chose to do the graphics to the colors to the way they treated the logos, right. And that attitude was something that me and my group of friends tried to personify in our own way, you know, everybody had, like, intentionally was, you know, trying to cut their, their own style, right, like I came up in like the early 90s version of skateboarding, which was very much like, cut off ultra baggy jeans or going to thrift stores or buying, you know, 40 size pants when I was like a 28 waist, and they're massive, but I would cut off the bell bottoms, it wasn't quite like Genco like jinko level, you know, like the rave style jeans, but there was a DIY customization like, self expression, like, thing that just was artistic and kind of weird. And, and I think that also kind of alliance of the punk rock scene and DIY spirit of carving your own way, and having a voice and not being afraid to, to express yourself at that was very liberating, right? For me. And I don't know, it was just super influential. I think part of it too, was also, you know, what the environment I grew up in. Skateboarding was this pivotal thing that happened, and I got to experience and that was mine. And that was just a very different than what I had at home. Right. It was an escape for me, too. And I think, for me, that's what it was, I know, for my group of friends at the time, right? Like, that's what it was for them to. We had our we had our own community that we made, right, we could do, and talk and be ourselves and that little bubble, and it felt like a safe space. That was our stone, which I I really, you know, think is because of skateboarding. You know, I don't know if that was ever anybody's intent that got a skateboard, but they've been reinventing it and doing it for decades, right, like, and that's another thing that I've always loved about skateboarding is they always find a way to get back underground and come back out with a new look feel that's unique to the culture in that moment, you know, and that I can't think of another sport activity, you know, or movement that has been able to do that decade over decade over a decade, you know. Marc Gutman 18:41 Yeah, neither can I. And so, then at that age, in addition to skateboarding, like how was school going for you? Were you a good student? Or did you have any sense of where you were going with yourself? Kris Fry 18:55 Not at all. I was a terrible student. Some of it by choice, some of it by Yeah, most of it by choice, right? Like, uh, I gotta pick the things in the moments that I wanted to pay attention to. And you know, in high school in high school, kind of had my core group of friends and you know, we we were all into skateboarding and we kind of did our thing and I wasn't very good at math or you know, proper English I'm still terrible with grammar thank God for copywriters. But um, you know, I think those are the things I just didn't love and appreciate and I didn't put a value set to them. But art I did write I took every photo photography class, every drawing class, and I did really well in those classes. Like my dad used to always be like, You're like a half straight A student right? Like because I get perfect grades and all the art classes and then every other thing I was failing out of but you know, that was that. It was This was like, what I glommed on to, and I loved and again, I think a lot of it just felt like a, an avenue of expression for me more than anything, right. And I had some really supportive teachers in my high school that, you know, saw some talented me and nurtured it and supported it. And I just kind of kept on this art train. And, you know, I had another very influential high school teacher. His name is Bill stout. He's, he was just a rad Dude, I had him freshman year for I forget the name of the class, but English 101 or whatever. And, and he was so cool, because he got us into creative writing, in a very cool way, right? We'd have to write in journals. And at the beginning, it was like, Oh, God, here you go first. 10 minutes of class, right? You got to write in your journal and, and Mr. style was like, super into music as well. And so he'd always put on music. But it wasn't just like, Oh, I'm gonna put on, you know, some top 40 it was like, he was he was playing Pearl Jam, when like, Pearl Jam was new. He was like, and so every kid in the class was like, Fuck, yeah, this, this is amazing, right. And he's just was this cool, dude. And he, I learned a lot from him. And I actually had a chance my senior year, the only AP class I had was AP English. And Mr. style was like, I remember you from freshman year, even though you haven't been that successful. Like, I think, you know, this would be a good class for you. And I love that class. And he changed the rules. And that's what I loved about it, too, is it wasn't about curriculum, to him, it was about my goal is to make sure that you are expanding your brain as a young man. And so he'd be like, I, I want you to do the curriculum stuff, you're gonna get graded on it, for sure. He's like, but what I really want you to do is read. And he had this deal. If you read so many pages, essentially, it would, you know, take over what you didn't do in the curriculum. And so I was like, This is amazing. And so I, I adopted reading, and he, he would, you know, do these kind of book report interview style things, but the books he was given me were insane books, like catch 22, Catcher in the Rye, you know, those kind of standard ones that are like coming of age, great stories, but then it got into like, I don't know, cosmic Bandidos and some weird shit. And then he got me into the Basketball Diaries, and just some counterculture stories that were very real and gritty and raw, like, it was super inspiring to me. And it opened my mind up to like, things I had no idea existed, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know if you've read the gym, like Basketball Diaries by Jim Carroll. But like, they made a movie of it with Leonardo DiCaprio. But if you ever get a chance, go on Amazon order the book. It's fucking astounding, like, what was happening in New York and his artistry and who Jim Carroll became like, it's just like, I don't know, it's a period piece that is just iconic and resonates with me. But I don't know, I think maybe that ultimately helped me craft this love of Art and Design and the visual language with storytelling, right like that. I would have never found that without Mr. Stout. Marc Gutman 23:18 Yeah. And so at that time, I mean, did you have a sense of what was next? I mean, were was Mr. stau. And your parents were they like, Oh, hey, like, you should go with him? Or were they saying or what was your thought were we gonna do after high school? Kris Fry 23:33 Yeah, I mean, Mr. Stout. He was the kind of guy that was like, he was kind of, like, I'll support you with whatever you want to do, right. And I really had no idea that I wanted to pursue anything and kind of the, you know, advertising marketing, branding world. And all I knew art was something I was talented at, and wanted to pursue. I, you know, I ended up, you know, wanting to go to art school. My parents on the other hand, right, like they, I come from a pretty religious, strict religious background, that I grew up as a Jehovah's Witness, essentially, until about my junior year in high school, and I decided I wanted to smoke weed and date girls and have friends outside of the church. And, you know, that didn't vibe with my parents, too well, and so, you know, by that senior year, I was a bit at odds with them. And I had found all these really cool things and was starting to figure out who I wanted to be personally right outside of the parameters that have had essentially contained me since I was, you know, a young child. And, and so I felt like art school is like my thing, and they were supportive, for sure. Right. They were glad I had chosen something. They wanted me to, you know, apply my art to the larger church group and help the church group lunch. You know, what's their goal for everything and I wanted out, I was like, I gotta get the fuck out of here. So I applied to a ton of art schools, I ended up getting accepted to a few of them, including the Alberta College of Art and Design in Calgary, and spent a summer went up there visited the campus, it was awesome. Like, I remember just being, you know, high school kid and walking through this campus and going down the stairwells, and they were filled with graffiti, and they're like, Oh, yeah, this is like, the graffiti one on one class. And I was like, Oh, fuck this, like, this is this is it, you know, I mean, and I was there with my dad. And, and he was super into it. And I had, I had gotten a scholarship to go there and international students scholarship. And so I was primed and ready. But, you know, I was also not a very I wasn't very good at the details when it came to that stuff. And so I applied, got the scholarship, and I essentially messed up my visas, and my applications for the visas. And right before I was going to go there, I was informed that I had lost my scholarship. And, and I could apply again next year for the same scholarship and they would kind of happy and right now, I was pretty heartbroken at that point. And so I don't know, do you want me to keep laughing? But yeah, I think at that moment, my biggest goals were to somehow find a way to make art as a job. And also, part two of that big goal was to get as far away from Littleton Colorado as possible, which Canada had all the right things. Marc Gutman 26:44 So we're gonna come right back to that, but I want to talk a little bit, I want to just learn a little bit more like you, you use the, the phrase or the term the description to Hovis witness. And, like, I'm sitting here thinking, like, I don't really think I know, a fish, like, I couldn't tell you, I couldn't describe that back to you. And so if you could like, like, just kind of give me the one on one, like, what is that? And and how did that affect you is in your upbringing, and I also find it interesting as you as you describe this, that, you know, you spent some time talking about describing, being involved in the skate culture and, and, and getting into music, all these things, but yet you have this other influence from from your upbringing. And so yeah, if you could just kind of give us the one on one on Jehovah's Witness and, and what it was like, for you growing up in that environment? Kris Fry 27:32 Yeah, for sure. What's the best way to describe it? It's a, it's a Christian based religion. And it's a it's a, you know, it's a pretty large and growing religion, but essentially, the way most people would know by, you know, Saturday and Sunday mornings, you hear the kind of knock on your door, and somebody is, you know, trying to get you involved in reading the Bible, or having a study group or, you know, try to kind of get you involved in that religion, right. That's the most common thing. And you've probably seen it Saturday Night Live, all kinds of, you know, any comedic effort, right. Like, that's always the, the joke around Jehovah's Witnesses. But, you know, that wasn't, you know, I grew up, I was kind of born into it, essentially, I had the opportunity to celebrate my first birthday. But one of the big belief systems that the Jehovah's Witnesses have is around making sure that all of your kind of focus and energy is around paying tribute to, to God, that includes, you know, not worshiping yourself. So there was no birthdays, all common holidays were not celebrated. And, let's see, yeah, it was it was essentially, it was cult like, in the sense, I don't want to call it that, right, because I don't really believe that. I think the people there, my dad is still participating, right? Like, they're very kind of Christian based folks. And I think that they just are very disciplined in their belief system. Right. And for a long time, you know, was at odds with my dad, because I just didn't understand it, you know, but for him, it was, it was his truth. And it didn't work out for everybody else in my family, essentially. And I was kind of the catalyst for that change. But for him, it's it's what he believes in and he loves and I've come to, you know, to terms with that, and we kind of have a agree to disagree, right. I think the the fundamentals of that religion are rooted in, you know, truly the teachings of the Bible, in the sense of kindness and taking care of your fellow man. And their approach is to try and bring as many people into that, you know, you know, into their community as possible. They do that by knocking on doors. But, you know, for me, it was always so restrictive. It was, I mean, we we would go, you know, knocking on doors Saturdays on Sundays, Sundays we'd be at church, we also would have church Tuesday evenings and Thursday evenings. And then mixed in there were, you know, Bible studies, and it was just, it was always, such as Groundhog Day, I'll just call it right. Like, it was Groundhog Day, every day. But all based on on the same ideals and the same belief system. And as I was, you know, getting into skateboarding, and all of those things, and developing friendships, right, those are all, no no's inside of the church, right, you're supposed to hang with your community, because everybody else outside of that has different views that potentially will drive you away from the church. And for me, that was always like, a weird thing. And it always, like, rubbed me the wrong way to a point that it created a created defiance in me, right. And it was a was a perfect storm of me, being at that age, and pushing back against whatever all the normal things you're supposed to push back as a teenager, but also having this like, Governor on your life, your whole life, right. And I wanted to experience life, I, I wanted to experience friendships and adventures, and art, and music and culture and skateboarding and all of these things, you know, and they were the exact opposite of what my father's house was supposed to be. And so for a majority of my high school life, I would probably say that I lived a double life, you know, I'd go to school, and I'd be one person with my friends and, and then I'd come home, and, you know, I would tamp all of that stuff down, you know, and it was hard. And I remember, you know, we'd always dress up in suits and ties on Saturdays. And that was always like, the hardest day for me to remember, because my dad would be like, Okay, well, you know, let's go get our community hours in and, and, you know, do right by the religion, and try and go knock on some doors. And it was a gut wrenching feeling for me to go into a neighborhood where I knew my friends lived, and to be there next to my dad knocking on their door. And I just remember being so anxious, right, like, just waiting, waiting for that moment where I make eye contact with somebody I knew from school. And then just thinking in my head the whole time of like, the, the teenage terrorism that was about to take place that on when I got back on Monday. And anyways, long story short, that I think that had a lot to do with. I don't know, my, my love of, you know, skateboarding and the idea of a counterculture. And the idea of breaking free. Like, I don't know, that's why I like what I do now, because it's on adulterated freedom. And I think there's power in that, you know, sorry, I just took a deep. That was great. That Marc Gutman 33:06 It must've, thank you for sharing that. I mean, it must have been really hard living with that, that secret that at any moment, like, you could get busted, I can only imagine it would even be intensified by being like, Hey, I'm this cool. Skate counterculture guy. And that's a big contrast. Right? Kris Fry 33:24 Yeah, totally. I mean, I think that was it, you know, and I was never, at that age, you know, I kind of took it to the limit, I can take it to you. Right, like, definitely identified as a skateboarder identified with a certain group of kids. But, you know, there's no way I was, you know, bleaching my hair, or no way I was, you know, getting anything pierced or, or going to, you know, a level of extremism, I guess, at that time. Um, there's just no way there's no way my I could handle the consequences that when I got back to the, to the house, and also the jig would be up, right. Like, it was one thing to wear baggy pants and a skateboard t that I picked up at BC surfing sport, that whatever had a funny character on it that, you know, my mom thought was cute. It's another thing to come in guns blazing. And, and not have, you know, a job not not my dad would ever have kicked me out. But I, you know, I grew up as you did in that generation where, you know, corporal punishment and spankings were real deal. You know what I mean? Like, at the backside of mini wooden spoons and leather belts. And at that age, like, I was just trying to find my way. And so I was trying to find the best way I could survive to a point, you know, you know, it always bubbles up at one point, right? Like the, it always comes out, you know, and it took a while, you know, until I had some real freedoms in my own right. Like I was driving, if I could, I had a job I could spend my money the way I wanted to spend it. And that's when the the That's also when cowboys from hell by Pantera was out and like, full aggression just was like, boiling inside of me. And that's where, you know, the kind of first set of my push to my own kind of set of values and freedoms really, you know, came at odds with my dad's point of view, you know, and my dad was a, he's a very kind man still is to this day, right? And I can only imagine the torture, I put him through, right, because I think he was just like, man, I just wanna, I just wanna love you. And this is why I'm doing this for you and not blasting Pantera every night when I get home, and, you know, bring girls over and smoking weed and like, sure, fucking whatever, not a proud moment, but it was my moment. But eventually, it essentially caused the collapse of, you know, my tenure as a job as witness, they have this thing in the religion where, you know, essentially, they call it being disfellowshipped. And so essentially, if you, whatever break the rules of the community, or if you're identified as somebody that is, you know, not living up to the standards of their religion, and they just associate you, which is a weird thing as a 16 year old to think about, but that was disassociated, essentially, like, you're allowed to come to the, to the church as much as you want and pray and work on being a better Christian. But nobody's allowed to talk to you can't can't convene, you're kind of the like, you know, the people, the higher ups are allowed to kind of talk to you, but it's mostly about, you know, how you're coming back to the, to the religion outside of that, like, I wasn't invited to anybody's family, barbecues or I was, I was at home, and you know, my family would go do that without me, which was fine by me at the time, to be honest. , Marc Gutman 36:57 Well it sounds a little heavy. I mean, was that was it fine? Or was there like some shame involved in that? Kris Fry 37:04 I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure there's some deep rooted shame in me, right. But I don't know. Like, I think I've now that I'm kind of in my 40s, I feel like I have a sense of who I am and what I want to be right. I have my own kids. And I think that shame as has helped me actually, you know, hopefully not fuck them up and protect them from making sure that you know, that they don't feel that same level of shame, right? I think that's, I mean, it's probably, it's cliche to say, but it's cliche, because it's true that every generation of parents, right, is trying to just not do what their parents did to them. And I think for me, I've come to a place for, you know, I haven't felt that shame, in a long time, that a lot of that is who you surround yourself with, and things that you do that make you happy and build confidence in who you are as a person. And, and, yeah, and I think that's kind of been me, like I've, I've had to find a sense of worth and confidence in myself and value in myself that, you know, had to use quite a bit to get out of that kind of shameful feeling. But, you know, design and art and all those things, music, especially like, those are all things that I think have really helped me figure out who I am. And you know, where I want to go, you know, to me? Marc Gutman 38:35 Absolutely, again, you know, thank you so much for sharing that. I think that, you know, I was gonna say, you're worried about not fucking up your kids. It's like, Hey, you know, newsflash, we're all we're all messing up our kids. So it's how much and so we try to try to minimize that. So we're doing our best we can, but Kris Fry 38:49 At least it won't be shame that I got them up another way, but Marc Gutman 38:54 Give him a different emotion. This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. Brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product or brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve, so that both the business and the customer needs are met. And this results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. And that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about. Reach out @ www.wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. You know, kind of coming back to Calgary. So in Alberta School of Art, you'd missed your deadline, you'd missed the scholarship. Did you end up getting to go there the following year? or What happened? Kris Fry 40:12 No, I did not. So I decided All right, cool. Well, I'll come back to Littleton and, you know, I'll get a job for the summer, and then I'll essentially reapply for school and go back to school. Well, that kind of didn't work out because I started waiting tables. And I don't know, like, if anybody's ever seen that movie waiting with Ryan Reynolds, but like, every fucking moment in that movie is 100%. accurate. And I worked in multiple restaurants. And it's literally the exact like, it's, it's so true, the characters are so true. But go watch Ryan Reynolds waiting. And that'll kind of describe the next kind of year and a half of my life, right was waiting tables. And, and then, you know, my mom happened to actually work. She was working at the energy group, back before they were owned by Omnicom. And they were essentially like, had two clients. And it was, who was it cooler, like, well, they had coolers at the time that they had, I forget another kind of client, right. But they were kind of this, you know, advertising agency that was originally built out of Coors Brewing. And then they kind of broke off and became a manager and their, their biggest client was coolers and my mom worked in the merchandising department, which is essentially like the crew that comes up with all the RAD ideas that are the giveaway stuff. So like, the inflatable couch that you got, after buying, you know, so many packs of Coors Light, like, so. My mom was like, she was really creative. And it was awesome. And, you know, this was kind of her first, I guess, like, after having kids and kids going through school like job, right. So first, like a full time corporate kind of cool job, right. And so it was cool. So my mom actually got me a job at imager. And my first job at imager is they just built a new studio that was on the back of their building. And it was kind of separate from the main hub. And so they had all the art directors, writers, and kind of conceptual people on one side of the building, count people share that building. And then the studio folks that were doing all the, you know, CG stuff and all that kind of stuff. We're in this back building. And this is my favorite thing. There was it was maybe 50 yards across the parking lot. But they had decided that it was really complicated for people to run job jackets, this will date me a little bit, but job jackets, like in the advertising world, they're these huge plastic jackets that essentially had the brief in the front sleeve. And then at this, at this time, everything was printed, right? So you'd have every round of revisions, all the notes, all the copy editing notes, and they're all bundled together in this pocket of this like giant blue. I remember them being like powder, blue folders. And so my job, they gave me a pager, which was cool at the time, they would page me. And I would call and they'd be like, hey, it's such and such art director, can you run this job jacket over the studio? And essentially, that was my job. But I ran job jackets all day back and forth between our directors and the essentially studio design team. But that's when I found it. That's when I was like, so like, I don't know, like maybe one day in between a lot of pages. I was like looking around, and I was like, wait a minute. Like, what do you guys do here? Like, what what's going on here? And, and I saw like, and met and have a lot of people that were just super cool and nice. There's a dude, Jason wedekind. I think everybody knows me. Like, these are rad dude. But he owns this print shop called gagis current design for him. Jason's like, awesome, but he he worked there. When I was there, and he was like, one of the dudes that was like, always down to just chat me up, right? Like, I'm 18 something like that. Yeah. 1718 anyways, Jason was like, cool, dude. And he was he was doing he would do freelance projects for all these up and coming breweries and be like, yo, don't tell anyone and like, I'd go to the printer and help him like, grab the whole product. Maybe now it's been so long, he's not getting fired again. So, but Jason was rad but he exposed me to this really cool world of design and at that point, it was kind of still in its in like the starting phase. Right? Like we're talking about Photoshop and illustrators, like, not very high on the version list, right? Like we're definitely far from Creative Cloud like but, you know, watching I used to just sit in his cube and other folks, you And just rap and watch them design and watch them be able to like take their drawing or their concept or their idea and mold it and sculpt it and then use type and like, build cool shit like labels and advertisements. And I was like, Damn, this is badass. I, I had found my thing. And yeah, I was still like waiting tables at night. And then like running job jackets back and forth. But it was at this kind of integer group that I really and this is back, like, when integer was still pretty small. And that was very different. It still had a bit of that Mad, Mad Men culture, right? Like it was also my biggest client was beer. And so they'd have these rad parties and like, big announcements, and it was just a bunch of really cool people. And that was kind of when it all clicked in. And I was like, I want to have a job. You know, as an art director, I want I want to do what these guys are doing. There's some really cool people that really helped me get there. Tom pounders was another dude, legendary art director in Denver. And he was like, super old school ad guy didn't really know how to use all of the computer stuff. He was drawing, right. And all of his concepts were illustrated and like, but he had really cool ideas. And I just remember sitting in his office and like, he just like blow my mind. And another dude, Matt Holly, who was like, killer designer typographers, or, like, I don't know, things. Like, there was just a ton of really good people that had no problem, helping me, Excel, teaching me the programs, showing me how things come together. I guess I was kind of like, whatever. The orphan of integer studios, right? And they would like all help me and teach me things. And it was really cool. And that's what I decided that I wanted to do. And as I kind of moved up within the studio, right, like, they asked me to start doing, you know, studio production work, which at that time, they were still doing presentations on kind of black boards, right. So my job was essentially to take the stuff out of the printer and build their presentations before they go pitch a client, right? So I got very handy with an exacto blade and a ruler and perfectly mounting all these artboards and then turned into like building mock ups. So hey, can you make us a 3d version of this, whatever? beard in dial display, right. And so I build it out of paper, and they take it to a presentation and, and then they started kind of giving me some projects to work on, like Junior art director level projects. And yeah, I did a lot of work on the zema brand, if you remember zema. Oh, yeah, totally. How could you not iconic, right. And I remember like, at that time, Shepard Fairey was like, all the rage in the skateboarding world. And I straight ripped off. Not a pixel for pixel. But I essentially have ripped off the idea of using stencils, right to create these zema out of home boards. And there was another woman there, Monique van Asch, who actually has a really cool studio in Denver now. And she was also like, so rad at like helping me but she used to give me projects to like, Hey, you want to do a flyer for this event going on? It's Coors Light sponsored, and, and she'd be like, here's your inspiration. So she'd give me these, like mini briefs for these small projects that were just fun to work on. Because it was like, oh, cool, make a, you know, five by seven flyer, and you can use any style you want. And then she critique it. And I was just a really, at that time, it was a really cool place to like, learn from these, like, really talented people that were totally open arms in teaching me anything I wanted to know. And the only Crux was, you know, I didn't have a college education. And I remember, they were like, well, you should just put your book together from all the projects that you've done over the years. And I was like, Oh, cool. So I put it together my book and I went and talked to at that time, I forget what his title was. But, you know, Chief Creative Officer, I guess it'd be the contemporary title right now. But I sat down with a gentleman and he was super cool, super positive about my work, he loved everything. And essentially, he was like, I can't hire you. You need to have you know, I think you need some formal training and you know, foundational elements of design and, and, and art theory and all these other kind of things. And I was like, Oh, shit, I was heartbroken brain so sorry, I'm just talking Marc, so you're gonna have to just tell me to shut up. Marc Gutman 49:51 Never keep going and so what happened and you go to school, or did you tell that guy to to go pound sand? Kris Fry 49:58 Well, I did tell him No, I didn't. about pounds sand I was thankful for, you know, his critique and he kind of helped me lay out a clear path. And so I pivoted from there and was like, Okay, I'm gonna go back to school. And so I had some friends that were already enrolled in Montana State University in Bozeman. And I had some family in Billings, and my cousin went to MSU. And well, essentially, like, some of my best friends from high school are there and I, you know, I, I kind of was flying by the seat of my pants, because I was like, I just need to get a college degree so that I can get a job, you know, doing this thing that I love, right. And I didn't really look too hard at the, you know, the programs that they had at MSU lucked out, and you know, they had a really awesome art program. And so I kind of enrolled and was, you know, starting to pursue a degree in Fine Arts. And it was going really well. I was living in Bozeman and taking advantage of all the cool outdoor things that Bozeman has to offer, right, like ripping Bridger bowl and riding bikes. And essentially, it was like, there was, I think there's six of us living in a three or four bedroom house and I since I was the last one to join, lived in the tuff shed, in the back of the house had a full size Malamute, and two large space heaters that got me through winters. And it was awesome because I, I built like a little loft in there and did art and worked on my stuff. And then as much as I could, you know, when snowboarding or hiking or was just outside, right, like Bozeman, at this time, Bozeman was still pretty small college town. Now it's blown up and a little bit different, but it was it was a really cool place. And then one Christmas break, I came home, and I started working over the holiday break to make some extra money. And back to integer. So the studio manager, Studer shoemakers awesome. reached out to me, I was like, like, you want to do work part time while you're home from school and like you can whatever help us with some studio projects. And I was like, Yeah, totally. And I just got super into it. I was like doing cool projects again. And like, I don't know, I really loved Bozeman, but I just like had this burning desire to just like, jump as hard and as fast as I could into learning what I wanted to do. And so I just never went back to school. I went back that summer, to see my roommates. And I essentially pack up my tuff shed. And my dad actually had a trailer so you don't meet trailer at all back. And that was like living back at home and working editor and Marc Gutman 52:55 Did they ever hire you full time there? Kris Fry 52:58 They did kind of studio production manager. And so kind of that job evolved into actual need, right? And so they had a lot more projects that they needed copying and mounting and building. And so I kind of turned it like they turned it into a job essentially, based on the needs. And at that time, they had been bought by Omnicom. I think my mom was still working the time around. Yeah, my mom was still working there. She'd been there a while. And anyways, like it was cool. I like was working in this hub of essentially, like art directors Central. And I was like, 21 Yeah, 21 I'd have to be and he was about that age, right. And so now I can actually take advantage of all those parties that I couldn't before. And I was younger. And so it's like this whole world, another whole world opened up. And then at that time, when I came back integer had landed on airwalk as a client. And Matt Holly was kind of the lead our director and then they had this new dude that had just moved to Denver named Jeffrey Bice. He moved from California and he was like this. It's hard to describe like he is just this fucking infectious, awesome, design focused. Dude from California that just like, kind of came in, it was a bit of a wrecking ball integer, right, like they were kind of developing this corporate structure. And he was this dude that was just like, like blow through barriers. He was selling these amazing campaigns for all these beer brands that were like lightyears ahead of other work that was being done. And anyways, for me, I really was just like, oh my god, Jeff, and I headed off and he asked me to do a bunch of projects for airwalk. And so I started doing a bunch of stuff for airwalk specifically on like the genetic skate brand, which is like a sub brand they had built at that time and Like, you know, Matt and Jeff kind of really encouraged me and I was really authentic to that culture and knew it really well and could help kind of bridge the gap from that, like, agency world to, to that airwalk endemic world and, and then, yeah, and then that's when I met, you know, critical characters in my life that you know, as well. And anyways, so that thing happened anyways, that relation dissolved dissolved tre, like the airwalk couldn't pay their bills to the agency, and so they essentially got fired by an agency. But that also created an opportunity. Jeff, who I mentioned before, was asked to move in house to airwalk he offered me a job and I jumped at it. And yeah, at this time, airwalk was in Genesee, and I was the kind of in house graphic designer for airwalk and started working on all kinds of fun projects that were right in my wheelhouse and passion center, right, like airwalk, you know, at that time was not the iconic brand at once was but it was definitely picking up steam. They, you know, have brought on some critical players that became, you know, critical pieces of my life from that moment on, right. Mike Artz, one of them shared mutual friend of ours, right, like arts was the snowboard marketing manager at the time. My other really good friend Randy Kleiner, who was kind of the charge of snowboard boot and board development. And so that's kind of where I started as a graphic designer was like, in this really cool, kind of fading iconic skates or skate surf snow, culture, brand lifestyle brand, right. And I was embedded in the brand world in a very cool way. Marc Gutman 56:48 Yeah, then we know that, you know, Airwalk had a little bit of an untimely demise or a sudden demise. And so, you know, after that, where'd you go? Kris Fry 56:57 Well, that, that untimely demise, I lived through that. I mean, essentially, a lot of folks unfortunately got laid off. And they essentially kept 10 of us to kind of push the business into a licensing model where they were essentially licensing The, the rights of the brand out and that's where I really kind of developed a relationship with Randy Kleiner. And from there, you know, as we're working on this licensing structure became collective licensing, which is another company which owned a ton of different brands, some snowboards a ton of different kind of Lamar snowboards. They're just buying up these really iconic action sports brands and then licensing them. But that's where I met Randy, and a few other great folks, Mark Vitaly. And Jeff Bice was still there. And at this time, we were doing a ton of like consumer insights as a licensing brand. So we're trying to identify trends that were happening in the marketplace around footwear, specifically sneakers, and so part of our job was to essentially do trend reporting. So they would fly us to Miami, San Francisco, New York, LA at this time, you know, sneaker culture was this very kind of small counter subculture that was just starting to brew, right. I remember the first time I went to New York and went to a life Rivington club, it was the small, no signage, place where you bring a doorbell somebody like flies over a curtain looks you up and down, checks your sneakers. And then they let you into this like amazingly crazy boutique selling retro Jordans. And then there were some other ones that were there like Dave's quality meats and some of the iconic kind of ones. But there was a small bud of a culture that was happening on the coasts, essentially, that we were kind of influenced by and driving some of those things that were happening on the coast into these trend reports for all of our licensees in different countries to be able to say, Hey, you know, these kind of materials, these colors, this, this tone from an advertising perspective, is going to be a hit for you as you look at the whatever spring line of product and as you design for your audience, right. So that was really cool, too, because it helped me really understand, you know, taking what consumers were doing, and how they were adopting things through products and retail, and then being able to take that and then break out a bit of a crystal ball and, and use it as a way to inform other designers on how to develop product and communications. And so from that came an idea as we kept coming back to Denver, that Denver might be ready for its own sneaker boutique. And so Randy Kleiner and I left, excuse me, airwalk and we started a little boutique here in Denver. all based around sneaker culture and marketing and design. And so we started off 10th and bannock. And it was intentionally this kind of off the beaten path, like up and coming neighborhood, in the golden triangle of Denver, and we were gonna sell a limited edition sneakers and create, essentially a culture around sneakers in Denver. That was fucking awesome. It was like the best time of my life, it was amazing. You know, it was hard. from a business standpoint, like Nike didn't even have a rep in Denver at this time, right? Like I was selling the type of sneakers that we wanted to have, and to be able to sell and to build this community around. But we have some other really cool brands. And we created this really cool cultural thing in Denver, you know, and we had really awesome friendships with like minded people, and that we're also have kind of all these small businesses. And, you know, we used to throw parties, and we used to have an art gallery out front, which was really critical kind of marketing strategy for us, right, it was this idea of, well, we're part of this first Friday movement in Denver, people are out looking at art, like, let's bring this kind of lowbrow art style, to this sneaker culture. And let's expose some of our, you know, some of the Denver artists that we love to our new store, and vice versa, the audience that is following them, well know that we're here and probably find some sneakers that they want to pick up. So we used to have these incredible art shows with, you know, some really fun, awesome artists and made some insane relationships and felt like, you know, we were contributing to a new culture in Denver. And it was probably the funnest five years of my life. Marc Gutman 1:01:59 Yeah, but it also sounds like you didn't make any money or didn't make enough money. So what happened to that business? You had to wind it down? Kris Fry 1:02:09 Yeah, I mean, we actually were successful grew the business. It was, it was good. I mean, I think, you know, for Randy and I, we were paying ourselves what we needed to survive, which is enough, because, you know, we have faith in what we're doing. And eventually, it was gonna, you know, keep getting bigger, and we opened, you know, a couple different shops in different neighborhoods of Denver, specifically, I guess, I don't know what it's called now, but essentially, where the Rambo hotel is right now. Like 32nd on walnut. Anyways, that were that Billy's hot dog is that used to be the second 400 locations were there, I don't know, five years before that neighborhood fucking blew up. But it was cool. So we opened that neighborhood, we had a hole or we opened up that shop, we had a whole different style of sneakers there. And then we ended up closing down two stores and going to build a store off 15th and plat. This whole time, we were also doing, you know, tons of design work and marketing work and consumer research work, right. So essentially, our business attracted like the most exclusive social set in the Denver community. And so we had brands that would come to us and be like, Hey, can we do some, you know, product shopping with your crew? Can we ask them, like they used essentially, as a laboratory for them to gain consumer insights based on you know, this, you know, new consumer type and this new trend in limited edition sneakers and streetwear. And it was awesome. So we're doing all these insanely fun freeing projects and had this really cool business. But yeah, I mean, the economy took a dive, right? This was when the, the, I guess the ever the whole thing kind of went out. And, you know, Denver, you know, was just a beginning marketplace for this kind of, you know, limited edition culture. And so, you know, we, you know, weren't able to convince people that they needed to buy $200 pair of shoes instead of pay their rent. And so we made a choice to kind of, kind of close it down. We, you know, at this time, I think I was about to have my second kid Sam. And, you know, we didn't have an insurance, I had no adult things in my life at all outside of my children. That was the only thing that qualified me as an adult. And so Randy, and I, you know, bittersweet Lee, you know, like, I had to kind of close her down, and I would say, you know, Randy took, took the brunt of it right as the kind of head business owner and majority owner and, you know, I thank him a lot for that. I mean, but he was also he's older than me. So, you know, as my big brother, he, whatever helped guide that situation, and I believe it or not, when took a job at imager again. 30 time around. And let's see how short Do you need me to be here? Mark? tighten it up. Marc Gutman 1:05:06 Yeah, we do need to tighten it up. Yeah, you can just kind of bring me bring me up to speed. Kris Fry 1:05:11 Alright, so here's I went to integer for eight months, didn't really love the culture didn't feel like I was fueling ideas, the way I wanted to that time, I was kind of super corporate. And so at that time, you know, I got a call from my buddy Josh wills, and Steve Whittier at factory design labs. And so they asked me to come work at factory design labs, which was awesome, I was there. Six years worked on a ton of really iconic fun brands that became kind of the foundation of my portfolio and my knowledge set, specifically, you know, in the outdoor space, you know, the north face, we did a couple little projects for vans, but my main focus was working on the Oakley account. And, you know, from there, like, I went from, you know, a senior art director to a VP, creative director, and that six year span and did some really fun iconic work with some really awesome people, you know, Scott sports, and then, you know, factory less like airwalk, he kind of went and had some issues and ended up closing down. And at that point, you know, after kind of running, running, you know, six years of laughs at factory, I was toasted, and didn't want to, you know, work necessarily in advertising. And I was going to just freelance and so I freelanced in my basement for a bit, which was rewarding, but hard, and was also kind of working with capital goods as creative director on a few accounts, and that was, you know, about eight months, and I was still so burnt out, like, what happened at factory was really shitty for me, like I had to layoff a lot of people that I cared for deeply and valued. And being put in kind of this VP, creative director role, just the stress and the amount of like, things I was exposed to, from, like the pressure standpoint, at that age, and at the same time being like, Oh, well, we didn't get enough new business or whatever, we just this other thing happened, right, like having that, at that level. For me, it was difficult. And that shame thing, this actually might be where it comes full circle is really hard for me when it came to laying off my friends. You know, like, saying goodbye to people that I really respected for all the wrong reasons, right? That wasn't their fault. And it was like a weekly thing. And it became this like thing that just like, poisoned me for a little

BGBS BONUS 057: Jay Ferracane | Storytellers are Bullsh*tBaby Got Backstory host Marc Gutman partners up with good friend and past guest Jay Ferracane on a special bonus episode about the complexity of defining yourself as a storyteller based on the video, You Are Not a Storyteller by Stefan Sagmeister. Want to see it on video?Quotes[10:26] There is a fallacy that people think, “I have a conversation with you and I come back a week later, and you give me this thing that will be on a gas station, billboard, or on a wall.” And to me, it's iterative. It's a narrative. And that was the only thing I can start to think of why we've gotten into this thing called storytelling, because we're trying to let people know that it's not completely defined. And it's going to be a journey. [13:28] What is the function of design? A lot of times it's to communicate. It's not to be seen, it's not to be noticed, but it's to communicate. It has a very important job, but is that storytelling? Is wayfinding, storytelling? [14:58] I don't think even all stories have reasons, because sometimes they can be whimsical, right? Maybe that is the reason. [18:26] I think even we get conflated a bit when as branders and marketers we say, “Okay, well, it's the sum of all these parts, it's your visual, it's your tagline, it's your copy on your website. It's all this and then now that's your story.” But is it? [19:13] The cool thing about building a brand for me and developing the branding is that all those signals, all that stuff gets set up so that those stories can happen in there. But that's all the people interacting with it. So if anyone is a storyteller in a brand, it's usually the people that support the brand. It would almost be the customer, right? It's pretty meta, actually. [19:49] It's the external world. You can tell all the stories you want about yourself, but it doesn't really matter what you think. It's what everyone thinks about yourself. ResourcesFeatured Video:You are not a storyteller – Stefan Sagmeister Jay Ferracane:Instagram: @angrybovine Facebook: Jay Ferracane LinkedIn: Jay Ferracane BGBS Episode 41: Jay Ferracane | Angry Bovine | Design Is Not About the Designer Podcast TranscriptJay Ferracane 0:02 And that was the only thing I can start to think of is, “Is that why we've gotten into this thing called storytelling? Because we're trying to let people know that it's not completely defined and it's going to be a journey. And so let's call it a story and follow us on this journey or this story. I don't know that—I've been dwelling on that actually quite a bit in the last week or so because, well, you and I both know the reality of making anything is never airdrop it into your clients lap, at least it's not in my world. It's a lot of back and forth and and the story gets written together, if anything, but to me I've always wondered is, has storytelling become this thing because people are trying to explain like, you're gonna have to get involved in a narrative? I don't know. Maybe that's where it comes from. Marc Gutman 0:48 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman. Hey, I'm Marc Gutman, and today is a little bit of a bonus episode of Baby Got Backstory. My good friend, Jay Ferracane and I talk a lot about different branding topics, marketing topics all offline when we're just hanging out. And one of the things that we got written a lot about was storytelling, and kind of this craze about what's happening with storytelling, and everyone's calling themselves a storyteller. And then Jay turned me on to this amazing video about two minutes. And we're gonna link to the audio in this episode from a famous designer named Stefan Sagmeister. And after that little video, and Stefan sets the stage, Jay and I talk about what it means to be a storyteller. And I hope you liked this episode. It's a little bit of a bonus talking about a topic that's near and dear to my heart. I am here with Jay Ferracane celebrated designer, creative and all around awesome dude. And recently, Jay and I were doing some work together and Jay turned me on to this idea or this this video of Stefan Sagmeister that's titled You Are Not a Storyteller. Before we get into that, because I just I love this video, we're gonna watch it and then talk about it cuz I think it's really relevant, two minutes of extreme relevance, Jay, who is Stefan Sagmeister? Because I don't even know like I, I watched this video and I'm like, Who is this guy? Jay Ferracane 2:41 Well, Stefan Sagmeister is is a designer, I think Austrian born worked out in New York for years. But I think his real claim to fame was that he kind of made designers realize every once in a while that you should take some time for yourself. So he used to do these, these sabbaticals. And then for like a year, he would just do work that tried to make him happy and resulted in like a body of work about being happy. But his work was really widely regarded. I think he's won like a Grammy for some, you know, album design stuff. And I was always appreciative of his design even. And I've known about him for a really long time. You know, he I think he's in the the world of like, the pentagrams, and stuff like that of the world. But Stefan Sagmeister, and his partner, Jessica Walsh, who now runs her own outfit, she still continues, but I think Stefan does more of this kind of like, personal work kind of stuff. But pre that that was this video that I was sharing with you. Because, I mean, we've all heard it in conversations that, you know, everyone wants to be a storyteller. And, you know, what's that really mean? And should you say it, and I look at myself as such a, I don't know, like a tradesperson in design that. I've never considered myself a storyteller but it did me a stroke, it struck a chord with me and why people say that, and a lot of times, I think as a designer, my job is to unpack what people are really trying to say, or what's the reason behind that. And I have some thoughts on why people get into the storytelling, if they use storytelling as a way to describe their process or what they're attempting to do. So. Marc Gutman 4:11 Yeah, it's such an interesting topic to me. I mean, remember, several years ago, you'd say you're a storyteller, and people thought that was all cool. And they'd be like, tell me about that. And, and, and it meant different things. And it still does to different people. But now it's like, literally, I think every single website I hit says, We are storytellers, everybody's Instagram says I'm a storyteller, and everyone wants to be a storyteller. And I think there's a lot of confusion around storytelling. And it's just an interesting topic to me. I don't know if I've landed I firmly believe that as—the way we communicate as humans is through stories, does that make everyone a storyteller? Especially when it comes to business, right? Like, is everyone a storyteller? And so what I want to do is I want to go ahead and share this video. It's two minutes, and we'll go ahead and watch it together. And then we can talk about it. Jay Ferracane 5:02 Sure. Stefan Sagmeister 5:09 Hi, my name is Stefan sagmeister, a Austrian graphic designer who lives in New York City. I'm actually quite critical of the storytelling thing. I think that the older storytellers are not storytelling. Recently, I read an interview with somebody who designs rollercoasters, and he referred to himself as a storyteller. No fuckhead you are not a storyteller. You're a rollercoaster designer. And that's fantastic and more power to you, but why would you want to be a storyteller if you design rollercoasters? Or if you have storytelling that the story that you tell is bullshit. It's like this little Itsy Bitsy little thing. Yes, you go through the space and guess you see other spaceships and yes, that's the story? That's a fucking bullshit story. That's boring. People who actually tell stories, meaning people who write novels and make feature films don't see themselves as storytellers it's all the people who are not storytellers, who kind of for strange reasons, because it's in the air, suddenly, now want to be storytellers. There is this fallacy out there. I don't think that I fell in fell for it. But somehow, maybe unconsciously I did, you know that you sort of feel “I've seen a lot of films, so I must be able to do one.” And of course, this is the most stupid thought ever, you know, it's like, “Oh, I've watched the Philharmonic. That's why I am a virtuoso violin player.” You know, I'm not, even though I've watched a lot of philharmonic concerts, I think by now in our space, meaning in the space of design, it sort of took on the mantle of bullshit. You know, now everybody's a storyteller. Marc Gutman 7:04 Just letting it play out there a little bit, so we can give proper credit to those that published it. But Wow, carries on the mantle of bullshit. Jay Ferracane 7:16 So much to unpack right? Marc Gutman 7:18 So much to unpack. So the mantle of bullshit. I mean, I was giggling and laughing during that, and I certainly saw that you were I mean, like, What are your first thoughts is like, is— Jay Ferracane 7:27 Well, I remember the first time I saw it, number one, you know, I can't pull off the sport coat. And, and, and and impression like he was and I was so genuinely entertained by the fact that he was being so honest, and calling out people on their stuff. And I guess where I came back to, when I when I first sat with it, I thought I probably the first time I saw it just really just thought it was funny. And like, man, did he wake up and have some shitty coffee or something that morning? And, and then, you know, the more I thought about it, and I saw, I think I saw that thing years ago. And and but I've thought about a lot since then. And I've tried to figure out, you know, why? Why has the industry taken on this mantle of, of bullshit? Number one, there's so many, I think there's so many options for clients out there today, that everyone's got to wrap themselves up in something, right, we all kind of do that take on a persona or two. But I think that this storytellers thing was a phenomenon that came out of not unlike, like, I purposely went against the grain when people were there. For some reason, there was this weird fear of like calling yourself a designer, I'm a graphic designer, that's what I was formally trained to do. And I think that makes me a pretty capable communicator. But it does give me a position of where I enter communication from. And I think storytelling maybe puts this this number one, it puts a bigger umbrella on it and allows people to be more capable, or at least position themselves that they are more capable, because they don't have to really describe what their entry point is and where they're coming from. But to the point of, you know, when he was saying, this, this fact about like, I can, you know, if I watch an opera, am I a virtuoso? there is so much information out there in education today that you can watch a video and go out and tell people, you know, something. So I think that what he was probably sensing was some frustration and i would i wonder, actually, how, how close this was to him thinking about, you know, leaving professional practice, because he maybe he was just like fed up at that point. Because that dude, and his outfit did really just great, creative, very original, graphic design. And, you know, maybe he was just, like, frustrated at a point like, I'm not going to be, you know, shielded about this anymore. The more I thought about it, though, and it was funny because you and I have talked a little bit about this and the phenomena of and there are some outfits that work this way, but the phenomenon that work, like a project is something that might have been called the story to be told. You know, in the Stefan Sagmeister, I hate you world. I think there's this notion to that a lot of people think that the project is this, it's dropped on the table, and this is one thing I've been thinking a lot about knowing you and I were going to get together and talk about this, but does this when you start to say, Hey I'm a storyteller, Is that a way to prepare people for the reality of a design process? And I call it a design process, going through a logo, there is a fallacy that people think I have a conversation with you and I come back a week later, and you give me this thing that will be on a gas station, billboard or on a wall. And to me, it's iterative. It's a narrative. And that was the only thing I can start to think of. Is that why we've gotten into this thing called storytelling, because we're trying to let people know that it's not completely defined. And it's going to be a journey. And so let's call it a story and follow us on this journey or this story. I don't know that I've been dwelling on that actually quite a bit in the last week or so. Because, well, you and I both know, the reality of making anything is never airdrop it into your clients lap. At least it's not in my world. It's a lot of back and forth. And, and the story gets written together, if anything, but to me, I've always wondered is has storytelling become this thing? Because people are trying to explain, like, you're gonna have to get involved in a narrative. I don't know. Maybe that's where it comes from. But, yeah. Marc Gutman 11:20 Yeah, it's, it's so I mean, so much to unpack on top of your unpacking. Right? Like, there's, you know, what resonates for me out of that so much as when he talks about his Hey I go to the Philharmonic, and does that mean I can be, you know, a great violin player? Because very, you know, early in my career, I was a story editor in the movie business and a core part of that is just taking in scripts. And I could never understand why everybody thought they had a story worth telling. Everyone thought that their life story was worthy of a movie. I think it's primarily because of what Stefan Sagmeister says is that now went to the movies, they get it, they're like, Hey, I can make this into a movie. And I was like, very clearly, no. No one, like, not a single one that came in was worth reading. They weren't interesting to me. And much like a classic pianist or something like that I was trained in classic cinematic storytelling, which means that there's a three act structure beginning middle and an end, a likeable, or at least, intriguing hero that has obstacles in their way and has to move from something they want towards something they need, all these things. It has a very strict definition. And I remember when I got into branding and marketing, and I had the same reaction as Sagmeister, I was like, This is crazy. Everyone's calling themselves a storyteller. These are not stories, and I was really myopic on my definition of story. Now I've since come off that and I learned, I've learned that storytelling has this different sort of definition. And I think, when I heard you speaking, that's really what I started kind of going through, like, what are these definitions of story versus storytelling versus narrative? I mean, is the roller coaster designer really trying to tell a story? Are they trying to communicate, communicate anything other than thrill and excitement? And, you know, things like that? So? Yeah, I mean, and you and I have had this conversation offline, so much about just what is the purpose? What is the job? What is the function of design, and a lot of times it's to communicate, and it's not to be seen, it's not to be noticed, but it's to communicate as a very important job. It is that storytelling? like is Wayfinding storytelling? Jay Ferracane 13:44 Right. Marc Gutman 13:45 You know, like, all the great Helvetica stuff we love from, you know, the New York subway and I mean, and then recent MTA rebrand, I mean, that stuff is like that telling a story? Is that storytelling? Jay Ferracane 13:58 And and that's, that's totally where I think it gets it screwed up. And not to belabor the point about titles, but like, you know, storytellers, if that's going to be the thing that somebody wants to put a label on him, I do think it comes back to this thing that, you know, design is about—it's, it's a what, yeah, I've told you this quote that if you can design a city, you can design a spoon, or if you can design a spoon, you can design a city, meaning like, hey, once you understand that, that your job is is to do this thing. It doesn't matter what medium it gets put into it. And still to this day, it kind of trips me up to hear a designer say I'm a UI designer. So okay, so if your friend said, Hey, I need a T shirt, you wouldn't make a T shirt? You know? Like, I'm not a T shirt designer, but I designed lots of T shirts. And I'm a graphic designer I've done to design a ton of UI and I poked my own eye out through my glasses if I had to only design UI and to me, I guess it comes back to this notion that design's job is to just put reason into things. And I don't think even all stories have really because sometimes they can be whimsical, right? Maybe that is the reason. But I remember seeing this talk if we're going to kind of Sagmeister was an early design hero of mine and so was David Carson. And I saw David Carson do a talk once about it was, oh, he showed this layout he did for a conference he got asked to attend, it was called the bravery of design or something like that. And it was the image was his father, who was a test pilot getting into an aircraft. And he goes, and he basically put that up, because he goes, what we do isn't dangerous. He goes, unless I'm designing like, pharmaceutical packaging, or something where if somebody reads it wrong, there's a problem, right? And he was saying that that's fucking dangerous. And he pointed at his, you know, his dad in the 60s, or whenever it was getting into a, into an aircraft. And, and I do, I just think that there's something that I think people feel like they need to inflate around what it is they're really doing. And that's why I really do look at what I do, it's much more like a trade than it is art, for sure. And even the way I approach it, it's like, I'm going to show you some things, but you're going to react to them, and then I'm going to catalyze those back into it so it becomes the things you need it to be. It's not about me. And so a lot of times storytelling is is like, your take on something to it has a very emotional bent. And, you know, that's a major difference between art and design is that you know, art is really about you trying to express some personal feeling or emotion where design should really really—it's it can have expression in it, but it's really about communicating ideas or information. And so storytelling does, it gets cloudy, but maybe it is a safety mechanism for people to just shield up like, Hey, I don't–I was a marketing manager a long time ago, but all of a sudden, here I am, you know, trying to help you rebuild your brand. And if I tell you that where I came from, that's it. That's a hard entry point, right? Marc Gutman 16:55 This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of wild story, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline. or even your product or a brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you, when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. That sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. And you and I have collaborated recently on a bunch of identities. I mean, those are really stories. You know, when I think about them, they're like, you know, there's we want certain emotions, we want you to think of certain categories. We want you to see this and say, Okay, this is a tool brand, for example. We're not really telling stories within that work, and I wouldn't, and I think that's okay, like, we don't have to like that's not the intention or the purpose. And I think even we get conflated a bit when as branders and marketers we say, Okay, well, it's the sum of all these parts, it's your visual, it's your tagline. It's, you know, your, you know, your copy on your website, it's, it's all these and then now your that's your story, you know, but like, is it? Jay Ferracane 18:45 I think it's and it's funny, too, because one thing that I try and get really clear with my clients that when I first start working with them is is that there's a difference between branding and brand. So brand and branding are two totally separate things. Brand is the promise you want to you know, bring to the world. Branding is the signals that get them there. And you know, in this in this case of like, you know, when we work on identity and stuff like that, I think we're we're way more in the signal building camp. Because the I that the cool thing about building a brand for me and developing the branding that will do that is that all those signals, all that stuff gets set up so that the stories can happen in there. But that's all the people interacting with it. So if anyone this is interesting that we've talked this out a little bit, but if anyone is a storyteller and a brand, it's usually the people that support the brand, it would almost be the customer, right? It's pretty meta, actually. Marc Gutman 19:40 So there's the old adage, a brand isn't what you say it is. It's what they say it is. And I think that so Jay Ferracane 19:45 Then who's the storyteller in that? Marc Gutman 19:47 Yeah, the customer, right? It's the external world. I mean, you know, you can, it's kind of like, you know, you can tell all the stories you want about yourself, but it doesn't really matter. Jay Ferracane 19:57 Right. Marc Gutman 19:58 That's what everyone thinks, you know, about yourself. Jay Ferracane 20:01 Yeah, no. And that's it's totally Yeah. Because I, yeah, you know, for along the line of storytellers is a word that I never got, and it's my brushes with the advertising world is, is a lot of times, people who make stuff just generally get thrown into this category as creatives. And I think that's kind of a weird label too, because I think that an art director is a, it's a role and a skill set that is different than a designer sometimes or graphic designer, right. And it could be different than a set designer, and it could be different than, and so but in certain worlds, all of that gets stuffed in too. And so I think whenever these labels come out, it's just a way, it's just a way for people to soften, or create a softer landing place for you to understand where you come from. And well, you know, my, my, my love of music and the background and the things that I grew up around was like early punk rock, especially DC kind of stuff. And in those days, you didn't go to the, you didn't even go to tower, you would have friends that gave you like cassettes that were made off of cassettes that were made off of two other cassettes. And I remember every once while people would like hold the microphone to like the TV and record stuff into it, I still, to this day, don't know where this soundbite came, but it's this very posture-y kind of voice it was in between one of the songs that was on this mixtape given to me. And the guy says, I have news for the world. And he says new wave is dead. And it says new wave is just a way of saying that you like any names, all these like sub genres of music that was extremely not popular at that point. And then he ended it with like, these categorizations of all these music types, that people wedged them under a new wave. And he said, it's because you don't want to get kicked out with a party because people won't give you drugs anymore. And so like, but it was kind of funny, because if I if I think about that, that's probably this defense mechanism that all humans are do a lot. They they put some falsehood around themselves, or at least a softening device. So that either you can't really assign what it is and or you may be reassign it, and it's it's a funny, it's a funny thing. And and I think that's that's, you know, not me ever asking, you know, Stefan about this, but like, I would bet his intent is is call it what it would call it what it is, and just be authentic about it. Because to me, that's the best form of graphic design and is when you can, like, make the brand with the things that it really is. And that's not necessarily storytelling. To me. That's this very, we were just talking about this before this call started ingredients and parts. Marc Gutman 22:40 Yeah, totally. And like, it's just, it seems like this catch all, you know, being a storyteller, this thing that is just like, you don't know how to describe yourself, you don't know what it is you think, you know, and I just recently posted on Instagram a carousel that was called stop copying your competitors. And and it's because we all don't know, you know what to say about ourselves. And we don't know how to differentiate, we don't know what category we want to be special. Right? And, and I'm no different. I want to be special, but we're not, you know, we need to understand— Jay Ferracane 23:13 You're special! Marc Gutman 23:14 Oh, Go on Go on. But you have this idea that like everyone's a storyteller is just crazy to me. And, and I do think I think the roller coaster example that he uses is of the extreme, but I think it comes into all sorts of things like you know, even you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of functions in marketing today where you know, people are claiming to be storytellers like in paid media. You're not a storyteller. You're an advertiser, you know? Jay Ferracane 23:40 Yeah, and that's fine, though. That is great Marc Gutman 23:42 And you should—Yeah, and you know and sometimes you use storytelling as a mechanism or a tool to to get your advertising across, but that doesn't make you a storyteller per se and I just think it's interesting that we all and it's in it's become this thing that like, like people just want to be that like it's like we use that as our brand and it's almost become that I think you might even be in the person that sent me the bland book which was a mock site of like what branding and and and all these agencies have become and storyteller would be front and center right there you know, right on the—we are visionary storytellers looking to change the world you know one brand at a time. Jay Ferracane 24:24 Well and i think that's that's why, let's just call it that well “the creatives” to use a big loose term the creative industry every you know, so often has to kind of go find its new catch all phrase to that everyone can kind of like over the next five years reassigns themselves to and then we feel that we shed that again and you become something else. But it is it just an interesting phenomenon that people get into these traps where they're like I'm worried about telling you what I am and in the in the roller coaster guys sense. It I found myself drifting off thinking about that. That, you know, like maybe what he does is so complex that if he told somebody what he really did, you know, maybe it's more of a mathematician than anything because you got to figure out a lot of gravity shit, I bet. And they're right. You know, it's like gravity and like, what if there's a fat guy in a little guy in the in the car together? What's that gonna do to the story? Like, Marc Gutman 25:19 How hard is it to say I'm a kick ass roller coasters? Like, like, like, like, everyone understands that. Jay Ferracane 25:25 But it are people comfortable doing that, too? Like, I think that's that's what it comes down to. So I don't know, it has to be something about the the palatability of the world you're trying to market to. Oh, man, this is resonating. People want to hear story. So I'm going to be set tell people I'm that, right. So yeah, it's, I don't know, I guess it was a delight, especially when I saw that because I think I personally would just really rather designers be designers and communicators. That's that's probably the better term. I would rather people say I'm a communicator than a storyteller because that is kind of what we do. I think it's, it can be super boring shit sometimes and not that there's not boring stories, but at least it has less of a mantle around it too less of a mantle of bullshit. And he has that. That [inaudible] and like, [inaudible]. Like there was a [inaudible] in there for a second. Marc Gutman 26:21 Angry. Yeah, you know? Jay Ferracane 26:23 Yeah. Marc Gutman 26:23 I love it. Well, Jay, this was awesome. I just enjoyed talking about this topic with you. It's it fascinates me. And like I said, Thank you for turning me on to that video. Like kind of blew my mind and was just really cool to chat about it. Jay Ferracane 26:37 No, I am, I'm the king of derailing your day with Oh, yeah, on that topic here. Watch these six videos, you know me. So you're welcome. And I'm glad to continue to distract you on a daily basis. Marc Gutman 26:48 Thank you. I'm looking forward to my next distraction. And that is Jay Ferracane. And that was us talking about storytelling, all based on the Stefan Sagmeister video. I love that he kind of goes on that rant about someone who designs roller coasters as a storyteller, but I think you'll agree it's become really, really confusing. I hope you like this little bonus episode. And if you want more of this type of content, drop us a line at wildstorm.com and let us know that you like these type of episodes just as much as of our traditional interview. Well, that's the show for today. Let me know if you have any questions. I'm Marc Gutman, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS. See you'll never miss an episode. I like big stories and I cannot lie, you other storytellers can't deny.

BGBS BONUS 057: Jay Ferracane | Storytellers are Bullsh*t Baby Got Backstory host Marc Gutman partners up with good friend and past guest Jay Ferracane on a special bonus episode about the complexity of defining yourself as a storyteller based on the video, You Are Not a Storyteller by Stefan Sagmeister. Want to see it [...]Read More...

Guess what, if your brand strategy is bad, it usually ends up showing up in your marketing. Are you wondering why you aren't getting results on social media? Why your Facebook ads aren't working? If you answered yes to the above questions, then you probably have a brand problem. If your marketing isn't working, or your content is not resonating with your audience, or if people are not clicking onto your website, then it's time to reanalyze your brand strategy.In this episode, Marc and I talk about how every brand needs to start with strategy first; the importance of including your brand in your company culture; creating a brand connection; the power of authenticity, and the key branding question every business should ask. Follow me on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/yvonneivanescu/Visit my website: https://yvonneivanescu.com/

BGBS 056: Tamer Kattan | Comedian | Listening Is the Cost of Being Heard Tamer Kattan is an internationally touring stand-up comedian who performed for U.N. Troops in Afghanistan, for protestors at the American University in Cairo (during the Egyptian revolution) and for the really dangerous crowds at The Edinburgh Fringe in Scotland. He's won many comedy accolades over the years, has TV & radio credits on the BBC, SkyTV, Fox, HULU, Netflix, Amazon, and truTV, and was even featured on Seth Rogen's Hilarity for charity event with Todd Glass and Hannibal Bures. Tamer is currently the co-host of Nice2MarryU on Youtube and you'll learn in this episode that before it all, he began his career in advertising and worked with past guest Shawn Parr from Bulldog Drummond as a brand strategist. Tamer is an Egyptian-born American with a Muslim dad and a Jewish mom. Always bearing many identities, Tamer has considered himself a “hyphenate” and finds solace in being neither part this nor part that, but a complete thing in the middle—although it wasn't always that way. Growing up in Southern California, Tamer needed to address how people treated him for being different, and comedy was his tool to do so. He finds the connection between comedy and branding is human nature, which can only be tapped through aggressive listening and captivating storytelling. That same humanity and emotional intelligence are what motivated Tamer to write his resume on a foam butt, pop it in a donut box, and rocket launch his advertising career until he found his way back to his roots in comedy. Above all, Tamer teaches us the power of making other's feel heard, which bears the question, how will you listen more aggressively today? Quotes [10:59] I'm not American. I'm not Egyptian. I'm this thing in the middle, and being an Egyptian American is very much another thing. It's a thing into its own. I'm not half of this or half of that, I'm a complete thing, and it happens to consist of two halves. [14:51] It's not like I wanted to be funny, it was just a thing that happened. Inevitably it ended up becoming a tool against bullies, but I didn't realize it until this kid came up to me—it was a bully that bullied me every day—and finally, one day, I had enough and I started making fun of him because he had pretty big ears. Apparently, he was sensitive because he said, “Hey, if you stop making fun of me, I'll stop beating you up.” And that's why I went, “Oh, wow. Comedy is powerful. It can be powerful.” [49:36] I think being a good listener makes you a better storyteller. And I love being able to listen aggressively until I hear things and see things that other people don't see. Like in my comedy, the thing that brings me the most joy is not when people laugh, it's when people say “Oh my god, that's so true.” That's my favorite. [54:07] I think that's what it means to be a human being. We're parts of multiple tribes and multiple groups. And I think if you break the ridiculous stereotypes, people become people again. Resources LinkedIn: Tamer Kattan Instagram: @tamerkat Twitter: Tamer Kattan Youtube: Tamer Kattan – Nice2MarryU Website: tamerkattan.com Podcast Transcript Tamer Kattan 0:02 I wrote a resume through a typical template. And I looked at it I'm like, This is absurd. I just have skate shop and surf shop experience. Why am I even setting this to an ad agency? So I said, Well, if I can't show my creativity through the experience that I've had, maybe I can shoot show it, and how I express that experience. So because it was around Halloween, I went into this Halloween shop and they had those foam butts that you could tie around your waist and make it look like you have a naked butt. And I wrote my resume across the butt cheeks. And I wrote Cal Poly senior willing to work as a software internship. And then I went to a donut store and bought a pink box for $1 it was such a ripoff. And then I put it in the box and I mailed it to Shai a day. And three days later, they called me and asked me and I heard that the HR lady kept the butt on her wall for like a year. Marc Gutman 1:00 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory on how an Egyptian American immigrant climbed to the top of the advertising agency world only to quit 40 become a successful stand up comedian. Today we are talking with Tamer Kattan. Before we get into my conversation with Tamer, If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify and apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Better yet, please recommend the show to at least one friend you think will like it, and maybe one enemy will like it too. And cross the aisle in a bipartisan effort to bring all podcast listeners together via the Baby Got Back story podcast. Today's guest is Tamer Kattan. Tamer is an internationally touring stand up comedian, who performed for UN troops in Afghanistan for protesters at the American University in Cairo during the Egyptian revolution. And for the really dangerous crowds at the Edinburgh Fringe in Scotland, where he received three four star reviews from international press. He was most recently featured on Seth Rogan's hilarity for charity event with pod glass and Hannibal Burress won the World Series of comedy, comedy knockout on true TV, best of fest at big pine Comedy Festival, and three weeks later won the Portland Comedy Festival. He is the co host of Nice 2 Marry You YouTube, and has TV and radio credits on the BBC and sky TV in the UK as well as in the US on Fox, Hulu, Netflix, Amazon, and Tru TV. He's also worked as a strategist at some of the world's biggest and best advertising agencies in Los Angeles, Chicago, and New York. And what you're going to hear today is there's probably not a whole lot that Tamer really can't do or isn't good at. And I was connected to Tamer via a previous guest on the show, Shawn Parr of Bulldog Drummond, and no disrespect to Shawn, but I wasn't clear on why he thought I should talk with Tamer. Well, Shawn's a smart guy, and Tamer, Well, I'm going to save that for today's show. What I will say is I'm crushing hard on Tamer. He's smart. He's worked at the coolest agencies on the biggest brands in the world. He left it all behind to pursue what really made him happy. Stand up comedy. Tamer drops all sorts of insight and wisdom in this episode, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. Oh, it makes sure to listen for the your dog is sticky story. I loved it. I'm excited to introduce you to Tamer Kattan. And this is his story. I am here with Tamer Kattan. Tamer actually happens to be in Spain and I'm in Colorado and even though we've been doing this for decades, at this point talking over the internet, I'm still amazed that this works in real time and that we can do this it's like still blows my mind, but that's true. Tambor, welcome. Welcome to the Baby Got Backstory Podcast. It's, it's great to have you. Tamer Kattan 4:45 Thanks for having me, Marc. It's nice to be chatting with you. It's nice to see an American face. Marc Gutman 4:51 Sometimes, right. It's been a tough week here in America, so maybe, maybe not so much. But at tamp. Tamer is an internationally touring stand up comedian. He's perfect. For him at the UN, with before troops in Afghanistan, for protesters at the American University in Cairo during the Egyptian revolution, we'd love to hear about that. And that's not how we know each other. You know, I'm a big fan of comedy. I love comedy, but I was actually introduced to Tamer through a, another brand professional. Shawn Parr over at Bulldog Drummond. And interesting enough, Tamer got his start as a brand strategist. And so, Tamed, I'd love to get into that a little bit. But like, more than that, I want to know, you know, when you were young was little Tamer, were you like, was it like almost like the two you know, the two little angel devil on the shoulder was like one of brand strategists and one a stand up comedian or like, would you want to be when you were a kid? Like, like, like, did you do you think you'd end up here? Tamer Kattan 5:53 Oh, man. Bipolar would be easy. I mean, I've been I've been divided for a long time. And I have a Muslim dad, a Jewish mom. So like, the whole I like, I've always just been a mixed up kid, I had people telling me I wasn't a real American, I wasn't really Egyptian. I wasn't a real Jew, I wasn't a real Muslim. So like, I've always kind of been a hyphenate as a type. As a person. I've always been comfortable being a hyphenate. And for me, quite honestly, like when I look at, I've always tried to sort of anticipate the direction of things. And I think even when I first got into advertising, I didn't get into it, because I loved commercials. I got into it, because I love storytelling. And I see the big umbrella is storytelling, and I see brand strategy and, and comedy, both fitting under that larger umbrella. So for me, it wasn't that different. You know, it's like being a wrestler that becomes a UFC fighter. It sounds like two different things, but they're kind of related. Marc Gutman 6:48 Well, absolutely. And I agree but I think you articulated very well that, that storytelling is a broad umbrella. I think a lot of people run around talking about being storytellers. But you still have to have that specific discipline, whether it be advertising, whether you're telling stories through comedy, whether you're telling, you know, different channels. And so I know myself, I made that mistake early in my career, I was run around telling everyone I was a storyteller because I was but then it becomes really hard to find work because no one knows where you fit. But where did you grow up? Like what was what was childhood like? For you mentioned that you had this bifurcated family? And you never really fit what we're we're where'd you grow up? And what was that like? Like what your parents do and stuff like that? Tamer Kattan 7:34 Um, well, we were in Egypt when I was a kid. And my dad left first and he came to America, he went to Southern California, Santa Monica. Although initially, it was easier to get a visa in colder weather states back then. So he originally got a visa for Utah. And, and then we were in Egypt. And you know, we're talking about technology right now, how blown away we are, about how great it is to be able to speak across the world. And when my dad first immigrated to the States, I had these very vivid picture of my mom tracing my hand on a piece of paper to show my dad how fast I was growing. Like it was, it was wild. And it was also a strange thing, because at a very early age, it was kind of the reverse of an animal priming on something you know, like when it when a cat gets adopted by a Labrador. It was like I got unglued from my dad for almost a year and a half where he was in the States. And my mom and I were in Cairo. So I was I was born in Cairo. And when I was around six, my dad left the states. And at eight years old, we reconnected in Los Angeles. So I grew up for the most part in Southern California. And the first place we live was a very Mexican neighborhood in East LA, which was the best place an immigrant could start in America, because they were very accepting. And they said, Hey, you look like one of us. You got pyramids, we got pyramids, youre in. They accepted me. And then from there, you know, it's really strange being an immigrant, sometimes you get to experience society in a different way. Because you you start at maybe a lower socio economic class than you're used to in your home country. And then you kind of move pretty quickly, vertically up sometimes, maybe, maybe do more jumps than you would have if you're a native born person. So we had a pretty interesting view of America at a pretty early age. Marc Gutman 9:27 Yeah. And was it all positive? Or was it tough? I mean, one thing I can share with you is, you know, I grew up in Detroit, and I have a Jewish father and a Christian mother and, and I had a lot of those same challenges that I never really felt like I fit and I never felt like I was really accepted by the Jewish side of the family or the other side. And, you know, you know, I was always kind of using like shape shifting a little bit and code shifting code switching as I say to my advantage, but there's also a lot of disadvantages. I remember being like I'm not Jewish and like hiding, you know, like From fights and stuff like that, and but that, you know, that didn't matter to the to the the kids that wanted to brand me with that label. I mean, was it hard for you like being irreverent and also just trying to figure out what your identity was? I mean, I think it's cool now to be like, yeah, I'm like, that was split. That was awesome. But at the time was a hard. Tamer Kattan 10:20 Oh, definitely. I mean, it was I had so many times I remember uttering the phrase, I just want to be normal, which is like, as an adult, that's the last thing I want to be. But as a kid, I just kept feeling like I'm, I'm abnormal, you know, even even the word they give immigrants is alien. So I always felt like I was kind of floating in space, you know, but just like, you know, emotions are just like physical pain, sometimes, like it hurt. I think I was. So I took so much emotional abuse, that I finally built a callus, which I welcomed with open arms. And once that callus was there, then I learned to embrace the fact that Yeah, I'm not American, I'm not Egyptian, I'm this thing in the middle. And being an Egyptian American is very much another thing, it's a thing into its own. I'm not half of this, or half of that I'm a complete thing. And it happens to consist of two halves. But it took it took a lot of a lot of crappy things heard a lot of racism a lot of, and not just from Americans, from other Egyptians, from Jewish people from from everybody. So it was a it was a wild experience. Marc Gutman 11:28 Yeah, I mean, I remember as a kid coming home crying because I just I wanted to have a communion Catholic communion. Because that's what all the kids, the kids are, do. And I was like, why can't I have? Besides, I was like, thinking a lot of money. That's cool. But like, really more than that, like, I was like, they're all doing it. And I want to be like, just those normal kids. And so I can totally relate where you're coming from. Did you like was there a big Egyptian community in Southern California? Were there I mean, I, I spent a lot of time, you know, I lived in Santa Monica for a while and things like that. And I just don't, I don't ever remember it. So like, and I could just be because it's just, you know, something I'm not looking for. But was there? Was there a big Egyptian community when you were there? Tamer Kattan 12:10 I think there is. But it's funny, you know, a lot of these communities start to form, especially these immigrant communities start to form and they're usually based on spirituality or religion. And so there's definitely an Egyptian community, but it's kind of forked. And on one side, there's the Muslim Egyptians all kind of have the mosque as sort of the home base of their social life. And then you've got the Coptic Christian Egyptians. And for us, we didn't fit into either. So even though I was aware of an Egyptian community, I was very much an outsider to it. Marc Gutman 12:44 And so what was life like for you as a kid in terms of school, like were you into? Did you know from an early age that you were going to be a storyteller of sorts? Tamer Kattan 12:56 You know, it's funny that you say that, because it's not it wasn't conscious at all. I, you know, I spend a lot of time alone. And, you know, back in the 80s, it was really cool. You know, I was a latchkey kid, I was one of those kids, you know, that had the house key tied, you know, the string around my neck, and my parents both had to work two jobs. So there were times where I'd wake up in the morning, and to an empty house. And I'd come home from school to an empty house. So I had a lot of time just to think. And I think that's that was the foundation of becoming a storyteller was just having a lot of time to yourself and to thinking. I really got into Dungeons and Dragons at a really early age. So my, my, my vocabulary of weapons, and monsters and mythology grew. And when we started writing, for this creative writing class that I had in elementary school, the teacher called my parents at home and said, Hey, I need you to come in, we have to talk about Tamer and about the stories that he's writing. And they came in, they say, and he said, Look, I love these stories, but they're a little bit violent. And I'm, I'm either gonna see his name on the front of a paper at the end of a movie, and I wanted to make sure that it's the ladder. And but he didn't know about Dungeons and Dragons, and that's why I knew so much about weapons is because that's silly game. Marc Gutman 14:11 You knew everything and nothing about weapons, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. about what you do from Dungeons and Dragons. But were you a funny kid. At that time? Are you? Are you leaning into humor? And you know, and I've talked to a lot of people and who either have tough childhoods, they don't feel like they fit they've been maybe sometimes bullied. And humor is typically the defense mechanism. It's what they use to Yeah, you know, keep people on their heels or just survive a bit. I mean, it was that it was that something for you? Or was it something different? Tamer Kattan 14:41 Yeah, in a very big way. And again, it's just so bizarre because because I am kind of a control freak, I think at times, and there was no design. It's not like I wanted to be funny. I desire to be fun. It was just a thing that happened. It was just something where they said oh, you're just like your grandfather and Inevitably it ended up becoming a tool against bullies. And but I didn't realize it until this one day when this kid came up to me. And he said, it was a bully that bullied me every day. And finally, one day, I had enough and I started making fun of him because he had pretty big ears. And, and apparently, he was sensitive because he said, Hey, if you stop making fun of me, I'll stop beating you up. And that's why I went, Oh, wow. comedy is powerful. It can be powerful. Marc Gutman 15:25 words have power. And so yeah, I mean, were you doing stand up routines in high school? Like, were you at the talent show? And are we getting into this early? Tamer Kattan 15:34 No, not at all, we had this really interesting thing. There's a, there's actually Detroit made this famous and Eminems movie Eight Mile, battle rapping came from a thing called playing the dozens, and playing the dozens just you just make fun of each other, back and forth. And it came from slavery, when they used to sell slaves one at a time unless there was something wrong with them. And then they would sell them as a dozen in a cage. And those dozen slaves would make fun of each other. And that's where all those jokes like your mama jokes came from. And like, it was really harsh, almost like, you know, even if we look at roast battles like that, that environment was the foundation for that. So in the neighborhood I lived in, we had Hello cat, there's my cat in the background. We had, we played the dozens. So it was a pretty poor school. And we had a 10 minute break before lunch called nutrition, where the government would give you milk and trail mix. And I was always just people would jump on me during those sessions and start just making fun of me and sort of attack me with words. And you know, just like with any other type of battling, the more you get beat up, the better you get on the offensive. So I just naturally became pretty good with words. Marc Gutman 16:49 And were you a good student? Tamer Kattan 16:50 I was Yeah, it was funny. There was some cultural things I had to I had to stop doing like I was in the habit of raising my hand to answer a question then standing up to answer it. And that usually ended with me getting beat up at recess. Marc Gutman 17:06 You learn quickly not to do that. And then So, I mean, what did your parents hoped for you? I mean, they're working their butts off. They're doing two jobs. They're immigrants. I mean, I have to imagine, it's a bit of that American dream that they're hoping for a better life. They're hoping for something great for you. And what was that? Tamer Kattan 17:25 Well, for it's really interesting, because my dad, because he was the one who felt like he was absorbing most of the risk. And the one who probably out of all of us, he's probably the one that felt like he was, you know, walking a wire without a net, because we were in America without a family without friends. And I think he felt like you always had to have a job. And that job was what protected you from homelessness or, like a terrible life. So he didn't care what I liked. He just wanted me to do what was safe. So in his mind, the ultimate job was doctor, lawyer, engineer that that was the three but I didn't want to do any of those things. I I ended up going to university for kinesiology for it, I didn't even know what I was going to do with it. I was like a strength and conditioning coach or something like that. But I basically took those classes just so my dad thought that I was doing pre med, but I wasn't. And it was my my junior year where I, I interned as a strength and conditioning coach, and I'm like, Oh my god, I'm not gonna wear these polyester shorts for the rest of my life. And a friend of mine said, Hey, you know, I'm a marketing major. And this ad agency is coming to Cal Poly, and they're going to show their commercial real. And I heard that it's really great. These are the guys that invented the Energizer Bunny. And so I'm like, Oh, that sounds cool. So I went with him. I watched the reel, and there was so many funny commercials. And you know, and she kept talking about the woman, Nancy Ali, I still remember her name. so crazy. Nancy Ali said that comedy was most disruptive form of storytelling, because you didn't need to know anything. You could watch a stranger fall down. And it's funny. But if you're trying to do a drama in 15 seconds, good luck. So I watched that reel. And I was impressed by it. And I thought to myself, Oh, wow, here's where to get paid for being funny. And I went up to her and I spoke to her and I said, you know, my major is not marketing she was doesn't matter. I recommend you buy this book called inventing desire. And it was a book where a journalist actually lived in the offices of Shai a day, at the time was just one office, but it's an amazing office. And I literally borrowed four more dollars, so I could buy the book that night. And I read it in one night and fell in love with the idea of working in an ad agency. Marc Gutman 19:39 What about that book spoke to you? Tamer Kattan 19:42 The honesty. I was I always thought that, you know, when you work in a corporate environment that you couldn't be yourself anymore. I felt like it was constrained. And in the book, she was sort of showing the type of conversations people had and they were cussing. And I think as a kid, I was like, Oh, well These adults are cussing. And it was just real and they were passionate. And they were creating something. They're creating stories. And so I got really excited. And I remember I did the craziest thing, it was around Halloween. And I heard that they got something like 400 resumes a day for internships, and I wrote a resume through a typical template. And I looked at it, I'm like, This is absurd. I just have skate shop and surf shop experience. Why am I even setting this to an ad agency? So I said, Well, if I can't show my creativity through the experience that I've had, maybe I can shoot show it, and how I expressed that experience. So because it was around Halloween, I went into this Halloween shop and they had those foam butts that you could tie around your waist to make it look like you have a naked butt. And I wrote my resume across the butt cheeks. And I wrote Cal Poly Sr. willing to work as asof for internship. And then I went to a donut store and bought a pink box for $1. It was such a ripoff. And then I put it in the box and I mailed it to Shai a day. And three days later, they called me and asked me and I heard that the HR lady kept the butt on her wall for like a year. Marc Gutman 21:10 Did you end up getting the internship? Tamer Kattan 21:12 Yeah, I got the job. Yeah, Marc Gutman 21:13 That's amazing. Tamer Kattan 21:14 And it turned into a job too. Marc Gutman 21:16 Oh, that's amazing. And so how long did you work for Shai day, what was forget that let's back up a second, like, so you're a young kid, you're like, I'm gonna go to the preeminent advertising firm in the world, you you impress them, you do a great job. And that's one of the things I do love about advertising, marketing, branding, it's like talent speaks, you know, and so you you got their attention and that and so like, I was the first day like, Tamer Kattan 21:42 It was funny, and to underpin your point, the people who worked, and they told me, Listen, we don't have an opening and creative, but we have an opening and broadcast. And the people there liked my resume so much, because everything else, they seemed like they were bored of the other resumes they were getting. So they they primed me to interview with Richard O'Neill, who is the executive producer on like, the George Orwell spot, 1984. And I guess, he said, I refuse to accept an intern here who's not in film school. And so they basically told me, you're gonna lie, you're gonna say that you're in film school. And I remember like, being like, Oh, my God, I can't lie. I was a kid. And I'm like, Can I lie to this man, but they told me you're gonna lie. And if you have to go to film school aid, and we'll send you to film classes at night, but we want you here, you want to be here. This is the this is the last gatekeeper. And we're going to tell you what you need to do to get the job. And yeah, it was pretty wild. Marc Gutman 22:40 And so you walked in, and I mean, what was it? Like? I mean, was it cuz I remember when I was in California, passing the building in Venice, and it had the big, kind of like, binoculars, binoculars, right? Yeah, giant binoculars out fry. It just seemed like, I never went in and it just seemed like the place where really cool things happened. You know, we're really cool things were created. And I had this like Mystique in order to me. I wasn't even in the advertising business. I was in the film business. I was like, that looks really really cool. Yeah, like, what was it? Like, when you got in there? I mean, like, like, a certain, Tamer Kattan 23:15 You know, that song? Eye of the tiger from the 80s? Yeah, it was like walking into that song. Like, everything, I just my heart rate just started going up. You know, we went in, I remember my first little tour. And as you know, they they welcomed interns, just like real employees. And we got like, a tour of the place. And they gave us a coffee mug that said, innovate or die, you know. And then they had like, and then added another, that was the coffee mug and a T shirt said who wants to be an effing ad agency. And just the logo was like a skull and crossbones. And it was, you know, all about disruptive thinking and breaking conventions. And it was, it was just sexy, you know, a really sexy thinking and really sexy ideas. And they had punching bags in the office that have management heads, on screen printed on the punching bags. See? And I'm like, this place is so cool. It was it was like nothing I'd seen before. And I felt like I was home. Marc Gutman 24:13 Yeah, and rock and roll culture. But yeah, so the culture is cool. And you're looking around, but like, what about the work? Like, what was going on? Like, what did you get to work on? And what were some of your first experiences? I mean, Tamer Kattan 24:25 I was greatly intimidated when I started. And you know, the work Initially, I was just a broadcast assistant. Actually, I was an intern at first. And what was happening is it was really interesting when you're an intern at a place like that, because there's so many interns and, and so many of them go in and out that a lot of times people don't spend a lot of time getting to know you. So I did very menial tasks in the beginning but I went out of my way to show that I wanted more than that. So you know, I would do all the typical things like get coffee, pick up food, photocopies back when that was the thing to do. Do But then I'd go up to the the guy who was the video editor at the time it was on an avid system, you know? And I'd say, Hey, can I go to lunch with you? And can I buy a piece of pizza because it's all I could afford, you know, and, and ask you about editing? And I think that they were, it's so funny because it's such a simple thing. And I remember as a kid looking at this grown man, and going, Oh, he, it brought him joy, that I took a real interest in what he was really passionate about. And I remember feeling off balance a little bit, that I was this young guy that kind of touched this older person, it was sort of a role reversal. In my mind, I thought, so I think I didn't have the sexiest job, but because I kept because I stayed passionate the whole time, because I didn't let the menial labor, get me down. And I ended up getting hired after the internship was over. And then, you know, I immediately was working on Nissan Gatorade, you know, zema at the time, really big stuff, like really big, high profile accounts. And even though I was, you know, the tiniest, the tiniest part of the totem pole, it still felt great to see my fingerprint, you know, on on these things. Marc Gutman 26:15 Yeah. And it's, you know, even talking about the avid editing machines, I remember those, they were like, it was like the dawn of like, nonlinear editing. And it was such a big deal. And they were like, yeah, you know, $100,000 or $60,000 for a machine. And I just remember, you know, you had a bay of them. And I just remember thinking, like, who could ever only the craziest people could ever edit on a computer, you know, like, how, yeah, how does that happen? And then in the process of transferring the film, the digital was something that was my first job, actually, I would drive the film to the processing studio. And so I knew a lot about it, but it was just crazy. And so but I also, you know, I had a similar experience. And then I was a young person living in Santa Monica and living in California. And it was tough. You know, it was expensive. It was competitive. Like, how did you fare like, I mean, you loved it, and you're working on these accounts, but like, how are you getting by? Because I'm guessing they're not paying yet? Tamer Kattan 27:11 Yeah, I mean, I think it was 18,000. That was my first salary. And then they gave me like an American Express corporate card. I don't think I understood how to use that card. So I would use it not realizing, oh, shit, I gotta pay this immediately. You know, I wasn't very smart. You know, I was I lived on electric Avenue in Venice, when Venice was still I mean, Venice. To this day, there's a coffee shop that has kind of the unofficial slogan of Venice Beach, which is where art meets crime. And, and that's what Venice was like, I lived on electric Avenue. And there was, you know, there's a lot of crime, you hear gunshots at night, I live not too far from Shai day, but it was scary at night. And, you know, it was my first time living on my own. And I struggled for sure to, you know, figure out how to pay bills and how to be organized. But I love going to work. And so if there was one part of me that was acting like an adult, it was the part that went to work. Marc Gutman 28:09 Yeah, it's so interesting to see Venice today and how it how it's changed. I mean, my first my first apartment was on Navy street in Venice, right on the border. And I was so excited cuz I had this like, I'm not kidding. You like a two inch sliver view to the ocean. You know, being a kid for Michigan. I was like, I'm on the ocean or whatever. But I mean, it was Yeah, awful place. And it was super tiny. Like a studio I shared with somebody, but I was like, No, you'd be in Venice. And once the sun went down, I'd be I'd be scared. So I get it. And it's tough. And so you're you're working to shut it down. I mean, is this, you think this is it your future? This is all you're gonna do for the rest of your life? What's where do you go from here? Tamer Kattan 28:48 No, you know, it's funny. I I'd never worked like that before. So and I didn't really pace myself. I felt like Shia Day was a marathon and I sprinted as fast as I could. And I'd say about a year and a half in, I'd had enough. And I kind of, I heard a friend of mine, started an outrigger canoe school in Hawaii. And I was like, boy, Does that sound good. And he invited me to work with him. And I remember the day I quit, there was a woman named Elaine Hinton, who is the vice president of broadcast I'm not sure she's still there. And she was an amazing woman. And she basically looked at me and said, Are you crazy? What are you doing? And I said, I'm going to Hawaii. She goes, you're leaving shy, dare to go to Hawaii to paddle canoes. And I go, you know, I gained weight. I was sitting in these cold editing rooms. It just, and I wasn't I didn't know how to pace myself. You know, so I burned out. And I left I went to Hawaii, and she tried her best to, to put some wisdom in me. But it was it was the right thing for me at the time. I ended up working at Shai de two more times in the in the future. So I always went back. I still I just spoke to rob Schwartz the other day, who's the chief creative officer at Shai day in New York. Well, Ashley is the first creative that became a CEO of Shai day. And, you know, we still talk, you know, and he, I retweeted a post and he said something like, once a pirate, always a pirate, you know, and it felt great, you know, because shy it was more than an agency for me, it became a part of my identity, you know, as did Bulldog Drummond when I worked with Shawn, you know, he was definitely another sticker that I had in my suitcase, a big one. Marc Gutman 30:30 Yeah. And so you're in Hawaii, you anything major come of this. canoe school, outrigger canoe school. Tamer Kattan 30:38 The biggest thing was boredom. Oh, my God. It was so I didn't realize what Island living was like until I remember going shopping and seeing this cool shirt, you know, and I'm like, oh the shirts great. And I was excited about wearing it to a nightclub and meeting a girl. And I went into the nightclub under like six other guys with the same shirt. And I'm like, I'm getting out of here. This is Marc Gutman 30:59 Not a lot of choice on the island, right? Tamer Kattan 31:03 I lasted about six months in Hawaii. Marc Gutman 31:05 That's awesome. You came back to California? Tamer Kattan 31:08 Came back to California. I ended up I did a little bit of a left turn where I worked in the fashion industry for a little bit my family. On on the Jewish center garmentos, talk about a cliche, right? And so I ended up working for this big fashion trade show called Magic was the men's apparel guild in California. And I learned a lot about the fashion industry. But I always still identified as an ad person as someone who understood brand. And always thought, Oh, that's going to hurt the brand. You can't do that. You know, whenever we talked about sales versus sales goals versus communication goals, I'd always be the person who's trying to do my best to protect the brand. So even when I was at these other industries, I still felt a pull back towards working at the brand level. Marc Gutman 31:52 Is that when you got back, went back to ChiatDay? Tamer Kattan 31:54 Yeah, I ended up going back to back to ChiatDay years later. I worked at Deutsche at Chiat, young and Rubicam. So I kind of did a little tour. I even worked at Leo Burnett in Chicago and also in Dubai. Marc Gutman 32:07 I mean, is there any a list agency you didn't work at? Tamer Kattan 32:11 Yes, Saatchi and Saatchi is the one I haven't worked at. Marc Gutman 32:15 Love marks is that there is that their book? Love marks. Tamer Kattan 32:19 Yeah, I love it's funny too, because I love that book. And I remember reading that book and going, Oh, I really want to work at Saatchi. But you know that the timing wasn't right. And I always had, you know, other things popping up. So I No, I've never worked at Saatchi. Yeah. Marc Gutman 32:32 Yeah, there's still time. There's still time. But like, at what point did you become what you would consider a brand strategist? Tamer Kattan 32:41 I think, you know, it's funny because I got the label of brand strategist when I first started working with Shawn. And it was because there was two ways into brand strategy, I thought at an early age, which was, I always knew I wanted to get into brand strategy, but I was I was pretty young at the time. And I noticed that a lot of them either had British accents, or Ivy League educations. And so I said, Alright, I don't have experience as a strategist. So this is me going back to the type of thinking I had when I gave them the foam butt right, where I said, I have to start thinking about what they want, what's gonna disrupt their thinking, What's going to be different. And so when I was approaching Shawn, I said, I don't want to approach the client approach him and say, Hey, I can be a strategy for the clients you have now. I'd rather say, Okay, I'm not a strategist, yet. I don't have experience as a strategist. But what I do have is a tremendous amount of experience and action sports. And so even though I'm not a strategist, I have the type of instincts and understanding of the culture that drives these categories that you're I don't care how British the strategist is. I don't care if he went to Harvard. He doesn't know more about skateboards and surfboards and the community than I do. And that's the way that I positioned myself. And Shawn ended up hiring me to pitch Airwalk. And at the time, Airwalk was pretty big business. And I remember when we wrote one that pitch, there was an article that came out and they referred to us as you know, David and Goliath, the little agency that beat all the big agencies. Marc Gutman 34:13 Was it boulder ball Bulldog drummond at the time? Yeah. So I have two very good friends who both appeared on this podcast who were principals in the marketing at Airwalk. On the snow side, one guy by the name of Steve Nilsen, who goes by Stix. I don't know if he ever ran Tamer Kattan 34:29 Oh, yeah, I remember Stix. Oh, my god! Marc Gutman 34:32 you know, he was on the podcast now. He actually works. He's doing marketing with liquid death, the water company. I don't know if Tamer Kattan 34:39 it's fun. I just saw them on LinkedIn the other day and I was I was checking out the brand. That's as soon as you said Stix, it clicked Marc Gutman 34:45 And Mike Artz and it literally he was right before this call texting me about Linda Nilander and who you may have worked with as well and airwalk who was a marketing principal, but anyways, That's crazy. That's crazy. So, Tamer Kattan 35:02 Yeah, Marc Gutman 35:02 you went you got airwalk and I think weren't they doing a lot of work out here in Colorado? Weren't they like they were, Tamer Kattan 35:08 We were in evergreen almost every week. And at one point I was living in, in Denver. Okay. And commuting to was evergreen or? Yeah, I think was evergreen. Marc Gutman 35:18 Yeah. Genesee right like, I think it was, it was technically Genesee wood right next to evergreen. But yeah, we're the office was. Yeah, that's, uh, that's crazy. And so. So that's how you got got on Shawn's radar? Tamer Kattan 35:33 Yeah, kind of and I knew, you know, I, I started reading a lot of books I At first I thought, Oh, the way to be a strategy is to to get mentored at an agency. And it was, it was tough to find a mentorship strategy side. So I ended up just reading tons of books lovemarks was was one of them. Me, the pirate inside, there are a lot of books that really kind of steered my thinking. And ø Marc Gutman 36:40 And any other books that influenced your thinking at that time that you remember, Tamer Kattan 36:45 oh, yeah, there was a book on archetypes that just, I remember just blew my mind open. I think it was the outlaw, cowboy and outlaw or something like that. And it was about, you know, the 13 different archetypes and storytelling. And yeah, it was it was a lot of those things. And what I ended up doing as well, as you know, I noticed agencies of the time, it was really popular to put case studies on their websites. And even when they filled up filled out case studies for effectiveness awards. And as you know, a lot of people ignore these, but what a great education to read, how different agencies deconstruct their pitches and how they found their insight. And what the insight was that they found whether it was quantitatively or qualitatively. So I just started digging into entries for competitions from different ad agencies and digging into case studies of different ad agency websites. I've always been a big fan of sort of macgyvering knowledge, you know, and figuring out smart ways of gaining information quickly. Marc Gutman 37:49 This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. If a brand isn't a logo, or a tagline, or even your product or a brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you, when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. And this results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. That sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about. Reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. And then So at what point, you know, you mentioned that you were bestowed the title and I have a very similar I remember, like, my very first jobs, I was a story editor and you know, to studio, it's a really big job. But when you're a production company, it means a lot of different things. And I was way over my head, you know, I was doing, you know, script analysis, but also picking up dry cleaning as well. And, you know, at what point did you actually feel like you were a brand strategist, you know, versus having that title, Tamer Kattan 39:18 I think, I mean, there was one moment where I felt like I wasn't trying to prove I was a strategist but I actually brought something that was different. I brought I felt like I was a very good strategist. And it was a moment when we were I was moderating a focus group. Actually, no, I take that back. Somebody else was moderating. I was behind the glass. And sometimes I think a lot of agency people at times will get bored. It's it is it's tedious work to watch someone else moderate a focus group. And it was for Mitsubishi at the time, I think. And we're watching all these SUV people that were intending to buy an SUV Within six months, or within a year, and you know, there's a typical discussion guide, which is so full of questions that it actually doesn't create a discussion. It's just question answer. And there's a moment during focus groups where moderators come into the room and ask the people behind the glass, do you have any more questions you want to ask? And when the moderator came back, I kept watching the people, because I was interested. And when I was watching them, I noticed people showing each other pictures, and they were pictures of their dogs. So I said to the moderator, Hey, can you ask how many of them are dog owners? And he looked at me and said, What? And I'm like, I'm just curious, the number of people that buy SUVs, I'm curious if they're dog owners, so he went in and asked me was something like seven out of 10. And we were like, Whoa, that's a pretty big percentage. The next group was only five. But then the next two groups were like eight and nine out of 10. So then we did it. It was like a survey monkey thing where we quantified it and said, Well, we have something there's something really interesting about there's definitely a correlation between people who buy SUVs and people who are dog owners. So we approached Mitsubishi and said, Hey, you know, you've got competition with all your competition when they create packages for the various SUVs, they've got technology packages, they've got luxury packages, they've got all these different sort of pack, but nobody has a dog package. And and there were these Japanese business guys are pretty intimidating to pitch to. And they started clapping. And it just, it made me it just tickled me man, I was just in one of them gave us this Hunter S. Thompson quote, he said, I don't believe the truth is ever told between the hours of nine and five is what people connect between nine and five was certain things in common. But the things after five o'clock are stickier. So and your dog is very sticky. And it's more sticky than these other things. And I was like when you had the guy on the brand side, convincing his own team of the inside. I was like, Okay, I'm proud of myself. I get myself pat on the back on that one. Marc Gutman 41:59 That's so awesome. That's great. And so, during this time, it sounds like your career is going pretty great. And you're you're making a way for yourself. Are you practicing comedy at all? Or is that something that's yet to come up? Tamer Kattan 42:13 No, actually, you know, it's funny, it's, uh, it went a little. It was a little dark period. For me to be honest. Like, you know, Robin Williams used to always say, cocaine is God's way of telling you, you're making too much money. And I was like a single guy making a lot of money. And I just started partying a lot and going out with friends. And I kind of slipped after I reached a point where I'm like, yeah, I'm proud of myself. I'm a great strategist. And then I just became the worst strategist for about three years. And I, all of a sudden, I think the worst thing, the worst label they've ever given strategist is the smartest guy in the room. I think it's detrimental to have people think that that's what they have to live up to. And I didn't ask as many questions because I got a little bit of a little arrogant, and I stopped being happy with advertising I wasn't is as excited anymore. And then my dad passed away. And when my dad passed away, I had this really weird moment where I realized everything that I was doing was to try to make my dad proud of me. And it was the first time where I said, Well, what makes you happy. And I'd never really done that. And I sort of had this big cleansing period where I stopped drinking, I started, I learned how to learn Transcendental Meditation. I just kind of grabbed the steering wheel back. And, and I was, you know, I was shocked that, you know, 3940 years old, I'd never really known what makes me happy. What was the driver for me? And so I ended up saying, hey, I've always wanted to do comedy. And, but I was afraid to do it, to be honest, because comedy for me was an identity. You know, and I really didn't have that I was always not fully Egyptian, not fully American, not fully Jewish, not fully Arab. But I was funny, and everyone agreed I was funny. So I was afraid to try to be a comedian. Because what if they told me Oh, you know what, we are also not funny. And then I would have just been floating in space. So I didn't know what I was going to do. But I had a friend of mine who ended up marrying Dick Van Dyke. Believe it or not, she's a girl. She was my girlfriend in high school, and then fell in love with Dick vandyke. And now they're married couple, and there's, they're amazing together. But her brother and I were both the funny guys in high school. And she bumped into me at a supermarket and said, Hey, john is doing stand up. Do you want to go see him? And I'm like, Oh, my God, are you kidding me? And I remember getting really excited at the thought of someone so close to me performing stand up comedy. And not only was he good at the show, he blew every other comic away. And at that point, I thought to myself, well, if john is that much better than everyone else, and john and i were the funny guy In high school, if I could just be a little bit if I could be even close to as good as he is, I, you know, this will be fun. And I didn't think it was gonna turn into anything else. I thought it was just going to take one class and get on stage once and have it be a bucket list thing that then professional comedians started approaching me and saying, Hey, you got something. And I did the Edinburgh Fringe in Scotland. And I won Best New International act under two years and had a manager assigned me and I came back to the states and quit my job and advertising and sold my house and sold my car and moved to England and lived in a box for four years doing stand up. Marc Gutman 45:38 And how, like, how was that? Was that great? Tamer Kattan 45:40 Or was it it was the best. I went from driving a fancy car living in a house in the Hollywood Hills with a view of the Hollywood sign to literally living in an apartment with no windows, right. It was owned by the comedy club. When we showered It was me and another comedian that live there. Whenever we showered, we had to open a skylight so that the house wouldn't turn into a sauna. Like it was terrible. And we live behind a chicken shop with a really high fence. So people thought behind the fence was a dumpster. So every night I'd come home, there'd be a bag of chicken bones at my doorstep. So I mean, I went from top of the world to bottom of the world in terms of residents, but I was the happiest I've ever been. Marc Gutman 46:19 What? You know, it's so crazy. Like, how did you have an find the courage to make that decision? I mean, you said you're like 3940 years old things are going good. I mean, it's got to be scary to enter into. I mean, I can't believe there was one and I've done stand up. I can't believe there's one stand up comedian that said, Hey, kid, this is easy. This is an easy life, right? This is both easy business and an easy life. I know. It's hard. Like, like, Where did you find that strength to pursue that dream? Tamer Kattan 46:49 You know, this is gonna sound so silly. But it you know how I said, when I was a kid, I didn't even know what made me funny. Just something that kind of happened. I think I've always just been drawn to that I think we're all supposed to do something. And I didn't want to give up looking for it, you know, and I felt like advertising was very, very close to it. And I still I still love advertising, I still actively read about ads and case studies, I think it's brilliant. Like, it's literally To me, it's our version of carving hieroglyphics on a pyramid. It's the digital version of doing that. And I think it's a privilege to work with some brands for sure. But for me, I think I was at a point where I didn't have much to lose, I was single, I didn't think I was going to get married I I was, you know, I wasn't happy. At my advertising job. I was in a situation that was tough for everyone, it was a digital ad agency that wanted to go full service, which is everybody in advertising knows is one of the toughest Growing Pains culturally, for an agency to go from just digital to, to full service. Even if it's digitally lead, it was really hard for them to embrace strategy. So it was a hard job there. Especially as you know, you get the title of change agent change agent. And you think it's nice, but people don't like change. And so I had a tough time going into an office where I felt like a lot of people didn't like me, and then going onstage at night. And I had people coming up to me and hugging me and saying, Hey, you know, your joke about child abuse, my dad beat me too. And then I get a hug from a guy that looked like he was in Sons of Anarchy. And I'm like, Hey, this is really spiritually spiritually fulfilling. And so it was a pretty easy decision at the end. Marc Gutman 48:33 So what's funny about brand strategy and advertising. Tamer Kattan 48:38 It's you It's it's the human nature. You know, like, I feel like I said this to one of my friends. And he always asked me about religion. I go, No, we don't know why we're here. It's like we're on level one of an escape room. And instead of working together to figure out how to get to level two, we all just started fighting in the escape room. So I like figuring things out. I like I, I love using my emotional intelligence, especially because I feel like that's something that us men have an it's an underdeveloped thing in us. You know, like, I think women have always been told to, to grab on to intuition. And men have been told that we don't have that. And women grow up with these impossible physical standards. And then men are told things like, boys don't cry. So we have impossible emotional standards. And I think I saw how much that hurt me when I was younger, to not talk about problems to not, it feels. I like being an observer. I think being a good listener makes you a better storyteller. And I love being able to listen so aggressively, to listen aggressively. Until I hear things and see things that other people don't see. Like I in my comedy. The thing that brings me the most joy is not when people laugh. It's when people say oh my god, that's so true. That's my favorite. Marc Gutman 49:58 So speaking of that, do you have Or can you recall a joke and you don't have to do line for line? Maybe it's the kind of the premise that you just love and you think is so insightful, but others don't. Tamer Kattan 50:11 Oh, yeah, I had a, you know what, I love the joke that kind of changes people's minds a little bit and gives them perspective. And so I said, I was in Little Rock, Arkansas, and I'm an Arabic comedian, you know, and Little Rock, Arkansas while Trump was running. And some somebody yelled out, he's Arab. That name is Arab. And I go, Oh, yeah, but you don't be afraid of me. I should be afraid of you. All, because cowboy hats for me are like turbans for you. I'm old, and this room is full of a bunch of cowboy hats. And I go, and let's be honest, he ha is just white people for Allah Akbar. And then they all started laughing. And once I said that, they all started laughing man. And it was it was really nice. And it was it showed the power of comedy, you know? And as a boy, its hooks got me after that. Marc Gutman 51:05 I mean, do you do you face that a lot? Do you face a lot of racism and a lot of people heckling you while you're on stage, because you're ever. Tamer Kattan 51:15 I mean, I'm pretty lucky. I have a pretty high number of laughs per minute. I'm a pretty punchy comic. And I think sometimes that helps you manage hecklers. And too, you know, I was a comic in New York for a long time. And people are pretty vocal in New York. So I'm pretty good at managing hecklers. But the number of people that come up to me after the show, when Trump was running, I got three death threats. And that was shocking. That's the first time that's ever happened. So it was it was scary. It was a little bit scary. When that happened. I didn't, I didn't expect it. But then there were. It also taught me a lot about human beings. You know, like, I thought I really understood America because I worked at these ad agencies in New York and Chicago and Miami and LA. And I'm like, Oh, I know America. And I didn't, until I became a comedian and started going to Little Rock, and and you know, Wichita, Kansas, and, and then I started doing America. But it's, I also realized, I remember going on stage one night and getting booed really badly, because I was introduced as an Arab comedian. And then I thought to myself, you know, and the owner of the club said, Listen, I'm really sorry, we have good people here. We have bad people here. But sometimes we get bad people. And I understand if you don't, if you want to leave early, and I'll pay you for tonight, and I'll I'll feel the other night. And I, he goes, I'll let you think about it. And I said, Okay, and I went home, and I said, No, I'm not, I'm not gonna quit, because that's not right. And I said, I don't like the way I was introduced. So let me manage this. Right. And I remember my grandfather used to say this thing that I had above my desk at my ad agency, which was listening is the cost of being heard. And so I needed to show them that I would, that I listened I needed to show them. And if they think that I'm on their side, then I'm going to be different than the Arab that they perceived. So I told the guy don't say I'm an Arab, just introduced me as a guy from LA. So he did. And when I went up on stage, I said, Hey, this is my first time in Oklahoma, Oklahoma City. I'm on site. This is a really beautiful place. It's really pretty here. And I didn't know because people in LA talk a lot of crap about you guys. Did you guys know that? And they're like, yup, yup. And they started agreeing with me. And I'm like, That's crazy. How could they talk? And this guy said to me, You, if you're gonna go to Oklahoma, you better watch out. They're really racist over there. And I'm like, you mean, they're gonna judge me without even knowing me? And he goes, Yeah, I'm like, wow, you ever been to Oklahoma? And he goes, No. And I'm like, What an asshole. And the whole audience laughed, and they all clap their hands. And at that point, they owed me. I stood up for them when they were the minority. I was in the big city, defending a small town from big city people. So then when I became an Arab in front of them, they started managing themselves. When somebody tried to heckle me, it was another person at a table next to him to say, Hey, man, shut up, let him finish. It was great. And I think I think that's what it means to be a human being. We're parts of multiple tribes and multiple groups. And I think if you if you break the ridiculous stereotypes, people become people again. Marc Gutman 54:17 Now what an amazing example of how to connect with someone that is different from you that might have different beliefs might even be against you upon first first impression and how to bridge that. That's just, I love that story. , Tamer Kattan 54:32 Oh thank you. Marc Gutman 54:33 Yeah, it's it's really great. Thank you for sharing that. I'm a little speechless, which doesn't happen often. timer, where can people learn more about you and your comedy, we're might be able to see you. Tamer Kattan 54:44 Well, until COVID. Right. But you know, I do a lot of zoom shows. Now. My Websites a great place, which is TamerKattan.com. And then I also have a YouTube series with my wife that we do every week. It's sort of a marriage. social experiment. We got married on the day we met. And, and so we do that that comes out every Wednesday. And that's a great place to follow. Follow us on Instagram to Marc Gutman 55:11 really quickly let's talk about that. Like, can you tell that story quickly about like getting married the day you met. That's, that's, that's awesome. Tamer Kattan 55:17 For sure. I mean, when I was a kid, I, I've always loved traveling. But when I didn't have money, I would use the internet to travel, like with videos and pictures and things like that. And so when quarantines started, I really miss traveling. So I found out that Bumble, the dating app had this feature called passport, where you could be in another city. And so I was in Spain. And I didn't think anything of it because it was you know, so far away, but I met this amazing Swedish woman. And we had so much in common, I was blown away and almost frustrated too, because I was like, God, we have all this stuff in common. And she lives 1000s of miles away. And what happened was, because she was so far away, we were almost like playing a game of chicken with honesty, and just being really brutally honest with each other about our flaws. Like even my profile was like, oh, I've been single this long, because I'm selfish. I used to have a drinking problem. I miss on that I basically did the opposite of what everybody else did in their profile. And then she sent me an email back that mimicked what I'd written about all of her flaws, and it became like a game with us. And so then I fell in love. And the laws had changed in Barcelona, and I already had COVID in March, and I had papers saying I had the antibodies. So I had this window to fly to Barcelona. So I flew in. And then when I got there, they changed the law when I was in the air, and they put me in jail in the airport, and I had to spend the night in jail. And she was 500 feet away from me. And we didn't meet and they flew me back to America. And I'm like, I'm not giving up. And then we did a bunch of research and we found out about Gibraltar, just tiny country that's on Spanish soil, that kind of UK property sort of, and they were allowing Americans in and it was also like the Las Vegas of Europe. And so I flew in there we met there, and I brought a ring and asked her to marry me that first time I saw her and she said Yeah, we got married. It's been six months and now we're in Barcelona until COVID zoning we'll figure out what we'll do next. Marc Gutman 57:21 Yeah, and that's an incredible incredible story and I can't wait to start watching your your YouTube show cuz like no, I really curious you set the timer. Yeah, Tamer. I mean, as we come to a close here, I mean, if you ran into that young Tamer, who is Tamer? I'm sorry that Tamer who was like nine years old and kind of figuring things out and obsessed with dungeons and dragons and being a latchkey kid, like, like, if he saw you today, what do you think he'd say, Tamer Kattan 57:51 oh, man, you're so insightful for saying that. Like I always. When people ask me, why did you start doing comedy at 40? I go, I didn't. I started at nine. Like, I'm not doing it for me. I'm doing it for him. You know, like, I think he'd be proud of me. It feels weird to say that, like I complimented myself. I think he would I think he'd be proud of me. I think the older version thinks I'm a silly and immature. But I think the little kid version of me thinks I'm like a male Pippi Longstocking and he digs it. Marc Gutman 58:23 In that is Tamer Kattan could have listened to Tamer stories for hours. And I'm glad he saved his story about marrying his wife. The day he met her till the very end. Tamer story really is one of the American dream that maybe we should be calling it the human dream. Because Tamer's ability to connect and empathize with people, even those who are initially out to get him or condemn him is admirable. And I think at this time in our country, we can all learn a lot from the Egyptian American kid from Los Angeles, who is now living in Spain, telling jokes for a living maybe we should just be a little bit more like Tamer. A big thank you to Tamer Kattan and Shawn Parr for the intro. I'm sure it comes as no surprise, but I'm a huge Tamer fan. And I'm guessing by this point, you are too We will link to all things Tamer Kattan, his website his YouTube show his socials in the show notes. And if you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wild story calm. Our best guests like Tamer come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. A lot big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can't deny

BGBS 055: Mike Rohde | Sketchnotes | No One Has Your Persnickety-ness How can you dare to do something you previously thought you couldn't do? Mike Rohde, designer and author of two bestselling books: The Sketchnote Handbook and The Sketchnote Workbook, helps everyday people overcome just that. Through simplifying the art of drawing and providing a judgement-free space, Mike empowers his students to realize their Sketchnoting capabilities. Mike defines Sketchnoting as a communication device that is first for you, then for other people. Whether you make scribbly drawings or masterpieces, the importance is that you engage with what you've retained to find value in what you learn. Drawing was always a part of Mike's life, and we learn about his journey from doodling cars from memory as a kid, to working as a print designer in the pre-computer era. All of his knowledge truly paid off when having full control of the hand-lettering and drawing within his books. To Mike, writing a book is like climbing a mountain, but he emphasizes that celebrating each small win makes it oh-so worthwhile. Today, Mike is on a mission to teach, and the world is definitely better off because of it. Keep making the world a little bit braver Mike! In this episode, you'll learn... In most of Mike's workshops, around 80-90% of participants begin the session believing they can't draw. His goal is to make these same people confident in their abilities by the end of at least an hour. “Ideas, not art.” People get hung up on the idea of their ability to draw as a stumbling block. Once Mike teaches them a simpler way to visualize in a flexible setting, non-artists realize that they have much more capability than they believe Here's the thing about Sketchnotes: It's first for you, then for other people. If you have a scratchy drawing that captures meaningful information, that is more valuable than a beautiful Sketchnote that doesn't represent what you've heard Growing up, if Mike wanted something, he had to create it himself. This is how he made his own comic books and newspapers, allowing him to hone and master the skill of drawing from memory, which helps him with work to this day In a long haul project like writing a book, it's all about the progress, not the achievement. It can't be done overnight; there will be lots of grinding and revisions and being happy with the progress made, no matter how small, will make everything worthwhile. Before the name “Sketchnote” was coined, Mike named his creation “sketchtoons”. After writing notes for a life-changing event in 2007, the new name felt more fitting Mike enjoys using both an iPad or pen and paper for his work and doesn't prefer one over the other. The way he sees it, you wouldn't ask a professional mechanic if they prefer a wrench or hammer! They each have their own strength and purpose. Lately, Mike has been into drawing with good old Paper Mate Flair Pens on his own Sketchnote Ideabook, which has thick, white paper ideal for Sketchnoting Mike believes that the thickness of a pen line will affect your state of mind while working and can impact the way you draw The Sketchnoting technique is beginning to be used within schools to get students more engaged in their learning and discover how to better analyze and make sense of the world  Resources Website: rohdesign.com LinkedIn: Mike Rohde Facebook: @Sketchnote Handbook Instagram: @rohdesign Twitter: @rohdesign Quotes [11:54] The more important skill in Sketchnoting is actually listening and analysis. So the ability to listen and to make sense of what's being said, and to then be able to draw it is really key. If you have scribbly, scratchy drawings and writing but you're able to listen and make sense of something and capture it, that's going to be much more valuable than a beautiful Sketchnote that doesn't represent what you were learning or what you heard. [24:12] Ultimately, it wasn't about the money...I've been through enough projects where I wasn't in control of things to know that when you turn it over to someone else, they just don't have your vision or your persnickety-ness to make things exactly the way you want it.  [30:38] Here's some wisdom for people who are thinking about book writing and creation. It's definitely worthwhile when you're done. But it's definitely a journey when you're going through it. And that's okay, I think it's good to have those lifetime experiences where you can't do it in a weekend, you've got to do it over months. [41:51] Seth Godin always talks about if the idea is good, you're probably not going to be able to stop it...I just look back at these certain pivot points where it hit a point and accelerated, and it just continues to do that. And now, there's tons of people doing it and teaching it and sharing it. And I really like that. I love having lots of voices in the space. I think it just verifies that it's a real thing. And it's definitely a benefit to people who adopt it. Podcast Transcript Mike Rohde 0:02 It's really funny that all that stuff happened in the first that first 2007 I think that the first 2007 was where I realized, it feels like I should call it sketchnoting. Before that, it's funny like, up to that point it was like the pro name for it was sketch tunes like I was, it was sort of like was cartoons and sketching. But when I did this event, it was a little less like cartoons and just more like sketching and noting and that word just came to me. So it was right at that event, when I just really started calling it sketchnoting. And for whatever reason that name seemed to make sense to a lot of people and they liked it. Marc Gutman 0:39 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory, we are talking to someone who has impacted my life in ways that very few have and today we are talking with Mike Rohde, the author, and I guess you can say inventor of Sketchnotes, the unique method of taking notes visually. And before we get into my conversation with Mike, if you'd like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify. And Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Better yet, please recommend this show to at least one friend you think will like it. Hey, while you're at it, one enemy who like it as well. It's time we bring the world together over the common love of the Baby Got Backstory podcast. Today's guest is Mike Rohde. Mike is a designer and the author of two best selling books, the sketchnote Handbook, and the Sketchnote workbook. He teaches in evangelizes sketchnoting. in Visual Thinking literacy around the world, he's a principal designer in visualizer. at Johnson Controls, his team helps group and define problems and imagine new solutions using Human Centered Design Thinking principles. Mike illustrated the best selling books rework, remote, the hundred dollar startup in the little book of talent. And as I mentioned, Mike's book changed my life. I'm not I'm not joking here. I believe it was Brent Weaver, who suggested the book to me in passing. And it wasn't supposed to be life changing. Just a little recommendation from a friend, or something he had heard of, or briefly seen. Hey, you should check out this book, about sketchnoting. I think that's what it's called, is what he told me that when I opened up the book, it was as if Mike was speaking directly to me, to the way I saw the world, to the way I learned to the way I listened at events. But I had self doubts. I didn't, and still don't see myself as an artist. My drawings are rough and crude. But Mike's book told me I could do it. If I followed his teachings, if I followed his steps. And you know what? He was right. And a whole new world opened up for me, my aperture expanded and I was able to communicate in a way that was authentic to me in a way that was beneficial to me and appreciated by others. Today, I get stopped by others who crane their necks to see my notes. I've shared my notes that the requests of others and classmates and people at conferences. And most importantly, it has helped my memory of key ideas and events in a way that handwriting just can't. Oh, and by the way, I have the world's worst handwriting. Several times a day, I lose an idea or a to do item on my list because I can't read my own handwriting. Drawing and big type in pictures was designed for me. Recently, my good friend Keith Roberts and I were interviewing one another, and he asked me about Sketchnotes. And we published that interview to YouTube. And you might imagine my surprise when on a Saturday morning while drinking coffee, Mike Rohde emailed me saying he liked our video that started an email conversation back and forth. And here we are. I'm so excited to introduce you to Mike Rohde, and this is his story. I am here with Mike Rohde, the author of the sketchnote handbook in the follow up the Sketchnote work. book. And as I told Mike, when we when we just met on zoom here a couple minutes ago, it is a real honor because Mike is a personal hero of mine. I'm a big fan of sketchnoting. I did a little YouTube video about it and via the power of the search engines and crawling algorithms that found its way to Mike and Mike reached out and said, I was really cool that you like my sketchnoting? And I said, Yeah, that's really cool. You liked my video about your sketchnoting? Yes, no. And so here we are. And so Mike, let's get right to it. Like what is Sketchnoting? Mike Rohde 5:39 So Sketchnoting is this way of capturing information visually. So it's note taking, but you're not limited to only writing, you can write, and you can draw pictures, and you can do lettering and use icons and color to express yourself in a way that's more expressive. And I think, provides more ability to remember and recall information than simply writing in text. Marc Gutman 6:05 Yeah, I would agree that's one of the things that I love most about it is the ability to recall I mean, I'll be flipping through old notebooks. And I'll see like something funny that I, I drew that was it was meaningful to me, like, Yes, I completely remember what that was about, and what we talked about in the takeaway, versus if I'm thumbing through and I see a bunch of text and, you know, it just doesn't resonate in the same way. So that that memory recall, is one of the the biggest things I love about it. And, you know, I think one of the first questions most people probably have is, you know, do I have to be an artist? Do I have to be have this immense talent to be into Sketchnoting? Mike Rohde 6:39 That's a really great question. And when I used to present in person, I haven't presented so much in person lately. One of the first questions I would ask in one of my workshops, whether they were an hour or a full day, is who here feels like they can't try, please raise your hand, and usually 80 or 90% of the room would raise their hands. And I would get excited about that. Because having done the workshop hundreds of times now, I know that by the end of at least an hour, people will feel more confident in their ability to draw in the key to it is exactly what you pointed out, people are concerned that this is art. And if I'm not a good artist, I can't do it. And so it's really fun to show them another way. Another way to, to visualize it doesn't necessarily rely on the art that they may have been taught in school, which in a lot for a lot of people is baggage, it's more harmful than helpful to getting started. So one of my mantras is ideas, not art. And it's not, it sounds very provocative to an artist. I'm an artist as well. And I don't feel that way at all. I think what it what it means to me. And the reason I use that term, is the idea that people get so hung up on their ability to draw, being a stumbling block, that I needed to take that stumbling block away from them, I needed to provide them a simpler way to visualize what they were thinking that would not be so demanding, and so difficult for them to do, right. And especially in an environment where you're doing this live while thing people are talking and being able to draw, making it simple, is a really, really big key to getting people to do this, because you can you know, most people who come to the classes already can write. So I mean, unless you're teaching, you know, second graders or something like that, that the challenge is just be writing, right? Maybe actually, the second grader could draw better than they could write. But for most people, they can already do notes as it is right. They can write things, but they are really afraid of drawing. In fact, I kind of wonder if the fear of drawing is actually stronger than the fear of public speaking in some ways. And the reason I say that is, as you think about it, let's say you're a really successful business person, maybe a CEO, or a high powered executive, and you're supposed to go and draw something. But if you can, if you can't draw any better than a fourth grader, that's not going to be your best side, you don't want to reveal your weakness, right? So it can be really scary for someone who feels like that's a weakness in their life, to admit it to someone else. So I think it's really important to in these workshops, and also individually to create some kind of a safe space where it's okay to not be graded, trying and again, so it comes back to the simple way of drawing that makes it possible for non artists to do this work. And to see that they've actually got tons more capabilities than they probably realized when they walked in the room. Marc Gutman 9:32 Yeah, I totally agree. And you talk a bit about writing in this in this idea of writing and how we all know how to write but, you know, to me, there's this mythology that artists are born they come out of their mother and they are just talented. And when you were speaking it reminded me that well, yes, well, we all can write it's a learned skill and we don't come out as babies with the ability to to make characters and we actually spend quite a bit of time practicing, and we have, you know, in our class, we have dotted paper and all these things to make the most basic characters. And what I really like about Sketchnoting is this same idea that it's something that you can learn, and you can build up your own alphabet, so to speak, you can build up your own library of things that you can draw on, it really is more about being suggestive. And I think, you know, what I really love. And I don't remember which book it is. But there's, there's a variety of ways of even doing like human figures, like I'm like terrible human figures, but you can do stick figures with pointy noses. And just by the way that you can't the line or have an arm movement, you can suggest motion and all sorts of things. So really taking that away and using Sketchnoting more as a communication device and something that people can learn. And so that, you know, that's something that is that I've taken away from your books that, you know, with a little bit of practice, like you can build up your own library and get pretty, pretty good, at least for your own skill level of wherever you want to be. Mike Rohde 11:01 Yeah, I mean, it comes back to is it helping you be better be a better person, right? is it helping you? If you go to a conference and you want to learn something? is it helping you remembers and helping you process and helping you learn better, like, I could care less? If it looks awesome, right? That's not the point of it. In fact, you don't even have to show it to me, you can keep it private. If that's what you feel like, I think that's sort of a misnomer was Sketchnotes that seems to travel with it as well. If you Sketchnote, then you have to publish it on social media and the show everybody in the world, your work? Well, you can but I don't think it's required, it's first for you, and then for other people. Mike Rohde 11:37 So it's going to have more meaning for you, because you're the one that did it. And all those little short hands that you're doing, as you're creating the Sketchnotes mean a lot more to you, especially since you were there in the moment when it was happening, right, it's gonna bring back memories that nobody else has got in their heads. So I think actually, the more important skill in Sketchnoting is actually listening, and analysis. So the ability to listen and to make sense of what's being said, and to then be able to draw it is really key. So if you have, you know, scribbly, scratchy drawings and writing and stuff, but you're able to listen and make sense of something and capture it, that's going to be much more valuable than a beautiful Sketchnote that, you know, is doesn't represent what what you were learning or what you heard. So I do think listening is kind of like the secret weapon that a lot of people overlook, for drawing really well. And I think, you know, drawing is sort of a part of it. But it's almost like a whole body experience of listening and drawing and involves every part of your body, which is another good reason to do it, because it's really fully engaging in a lot of ways. Marc Gutman 12:45 And so you're in Wisconsin now, is that where you grew up? Mike Rohde 12:49 I grew up in the Chicago area, actually, as a kid, and moved here. When I was in my teens, and had been here for quite a while, raised a family here really liked this area. I always felt good. Being a Midwesterner, I like the seasons. So it's been a really good fit for me and my family. And I like I like being here. Like, kind of like being from Milwaukee, there's, it's kind of a cool little town that sometimes people don't always think about when they come here, like this is a really cool city. How did I not know about this city? So it's kind of fun to sort of know my way around and know the cool places to take people. And it's kind of fun. It's it's good to be from the Midwest, and in the Midwest, I guess. Marc Gutman 13:28 Yeah, I can attest I last time I was in Milwaukee was I think, during the polar vortex, like two years ago, and I couldn't really go outside very much. But it was it was really great and really cool seeing there. And I can't remember the name of it. But I went to this really cool kind of indie movie theater. And I see that you're in the movies there with your background with Blade Runner and Star Wars Back to the Future. And, and that's a big love of mine to see I really, really loved that. And Wisconsin. And so when you were growing up in Chicago, and then into Milwaukee, I mean, were you always kind of doodling Were you always thinking in images? Mike Rohde 14:02 I think I was when I look back as a kid. You know, we we were I guess, lower middle class. I don't know. I don't think that can be judged a lot of different ways. But we did have like tons of money. If I asked for stuff like maybe I'd get it for Christmas, or maybe my birthday. I didn't have lots of toys. We had used bikes that my dad would get from a cousin fix it up. And my dad was good at fixing things. So typically, we would get things that were repurposed, which I kind of appreciate now, and so if I wanted something, I would sort of have to create it. So I got into making my own comic books and I made a little newspapers and books and you know, I did drawing a lot because it was kind of fun. I think a lot of it. I was seeing things and the way I saw things is a little bit unusual for a kid. Mike Rohde 14:49 So I remember, as a little kid, my parents told me that I basically memorize the front's of old cars and I saw the faces In the cars, so the headlights and the grills how had faces to me. So you could be driving down a road and I was Oh, that's a Buick. And then as I got older, that's all the saber, or you know, like I could identify the differences between these cars by the identifying grills or tail lights or other, you know, the lines of the vehicles. And I think that actually encouraged me to draw those. So I could draw them from memory. And I can still do some dumb practices like I did when I was a little kid. But you know, that the ability to memorize and sort of turn cars into objects, I think, sort of primed me in some ways for this idea of doing the visual library that you talk about, like, how can you break down these complex things into simple, simple shapes or simple objects that you could recreate, and you have the essence of the thing, even though it's like, you know, 10 lines, you can capture the essence of a Pontiac lesabre. Right. So that that also came into play. Later, when I was in college, I was a print major and became a graphic design major, one of the things I loved was type graphy. And that was another thing that I could memorize the letter form. So certain letter forms go with certain typefaces, and you could spot a typeface. And all you really need to know is like three or four of the key letter forms. And if you see it in a sentence, you can spot Oh, that skill sands, or that's whatever, right because of specific characteristics. So I think it's the same kind of thing. It's like identifying and boiling things down, and then being able to rely on that memory. I think that's helped me now in doing that kind of that same kind of work. And drawing was always sort of part of my life. And it just never, they never were, no one was able to ever shake it out of me. So I guess I'm lucky in that way that I got to draw since I was a little kid. And it really never stopped. Until now, even in my professional life, I found a way to kind of squeeze it in. Or sometimes they say it leaks out of me whether I like it or not. So that's been a real, I'm really fortunate that that's true for me. Marc Gutman 16:58 Yeah. And that was gonna be my question. So your your parents cool with you pursuing a career in art? Did they see that as a way that you were going to be able to, to make a living, I am sure for, you know, the way you just described it, that middle to lower middle class that like, hey, they probably were like, Hey, we just, we just wanna make sure Mike is okay, you know, he makes a living. And he can make a buck where they were they cool with the art path? Mike Rohde 17:21 Well, my mom is always actually very artistic. And my dad was very good at troubleshooting. So I took on both of those aspects from them. So the funny thing about me is I always had sort of a technical side and an artistic side. So I had both those. I think my dad was probably more concerned. And I'm sort of facing this now, because I've got a son who's just turned 18. So we're kind of wondering, like, what's he going to do right now I'm in the same spot as my dad was. But I think he just didn't understand like, what was an option, then, like, he didn't know understand what graphic design or commercial art was, in our school or high school, I happened to have a really good printing program, at the time, where you could learn printing in the school, do all this work, and then you'd get an apprenticeship and get a job in industry and just transition and be a full time could make pretty good money as a printer back in the day. Mike Rohde 18:10 But as it would, as luck would have it, it was right around the time of a kind of a recession. And so the jobs that normally would have been wide open for a kid like me coming out of high school, with those skills suddenly dried up. And so I went to a Technical College, again, in printing. And in my printing class. There, we did lots of cross training. So I ended up in these design classes with designers in the commercial art or graphic design program. And so I ended up in these design classes, and they're like, what are you doing in printing, you should be a designer. And so I sort of thought, you know, that's, that's a pretty good idea. I'm pretty good at this. And I do like the technical side of the printing. So I switched majors and became a print designer to start my career. And I think I always had the advantage of, you know, I mentioned I was always had a technical and an artistic side. Having come from that printing side, I understood that the reason why printing worked and what the limits were. So when I did my design work, I sort of always had that in the back of my head, and I could go to a press check with a printer, and I could have a discussion with them about ideas for making things print better, or, you know, my stuff would tend to print pretty well because I knew what I should and shouldn't do because I was a printing student. So that's sort of where I made my shift into design and my dad's ended up being very happy with my career choice, but I think a lot of it is he just didn't understand at the time that there was actually a way to do art and be paid for it. He just thought of the starving artists eating ramen noodles in a studio apartment right and then starving their way through life or something. So, you know, he did his best and you know, he ultimately had to trust your kids to make good decisions and that the the train that you gave them up till they were 18 would rub off on him a little bit and then Seems like it did. Marc Gutman 20:02 Yeah. And so your dad, you know, had the wherewithal to step back and let you be your own man. But like, what were you thinking? Were you super confident coming out of school that like you were gonna conquer the world with your art degree? Or was there? Are you uncertain? Or like how clear were you coming out of like, if this was gonna work or not? Mike Rohde 20:20 Well, I was pretty hard, I was pretty hardcore for printing, like, I was pretty good at that I had an artistic eye for it. And I was good at the technical stuff. And I understood the concepts and knew how to apply them. And, you know, there was a little bit of an at the time, because it was still pre computer, when I was coming out, there was a little bit of artistic flair to printing at the time, right? Because you did things made most things you did manually. So there was some human aspect to it, that you could, you could be kind of almost artistic in this in this profession. And I was pretty good at it, I was pretty dedicated to going into that. And then, like I said, the economy sort of changed the direction. And I'm glad it did, because, you know, it sent me back to college, because otherwise I might have just gone right into that business and would have been a printer. And so, you know, it sort of made me pause a little bit and rethink, there was a time for, I think, for a summer that I was into photography as well. Mike Rohde 21:18 So I've always had an interest in these, I guess, communications or visual arts, in general. So all those things are still interesting to me doing photography, I by no means a professional photographer, but you know, I like to, I like taking good shots, I like good lighting, like all those things sort of informed all the work that I do now. So I tend to be, I guess, you know, I would call myself a renaissance man. But I like a lot of different things. I like to have competence in different areas. So having those skills is definitely worked out. Well, for me being able to do as a solo person, or partnering with just one or one other person, like in the case of the Kickstarter, you know, shooting, shooting photos, and doing illustrations, and, you know, all that kind of stuff, all those skills have come become very valuable. Now, as I'm doing this, you know, teaching and product work. And even the books that I wrote, all that printing skill that I had sort of forgotten for a long time came in handy because when peachpit, the publisher came to me, they said, Hey, can we give you like $5,000? And have you design your own book? That's like, Yeah, sure. So I took it all the way from writing the text, and sketching and doing the illustrations to production. So I'm quite an unusual author in that sense that I actually turned over my production files to the printer, and they ran the book, based on my production work. So that's, um, that was a really nice thing to have control from end to end over the whole product. But what were both of the books. So you know, at the time, it's sort of like, you know, the Steve Jobs, quote, you can't see how things how the dots line up until you look back. And that was definitely one of those cases like going into it. He told me when I was a printing student, that one day, I would write this book about visual notetaking. And I would design the book, and it would be a best seller. And I've traveled the world teaching it like, you got to be crazy, like, you would never believe that. But here we are. Looking back and all those experiences. And all that knowledge that I gained over time, really did help me in doing the things that I'm doing now. Marc Gutman 23:23 Yeah, and just for those of you listening, since we are on an auditory medium versus visual, like if you you know, I do want to point out like the complexity of your book, this is not like, you know, I think I think you know, today you can go you can do an E file, you can send it to Amazon, you can get a little cover art, and they'll turn out a book that looks amazing. That looks like it was you know, that's the real deal. But your book is a very visual artistic book, every page is hand lettered, every page is hand drawn to some degree. And so that that's no like insignificant fact that you put in our work. Yeah, he put this book together. I was like, $5,000, like, they got a good deal for that! Mike Rohde 24:04 Yeah, it wasn't like, you know, I took that opportunity as well. I can make money doing it. But I have control that was really, ultimately it wasn't about the money. It was about the ability to make sure so I I've been through enough projects where I wasn't in control of things, to know that when you turn it over to someone else, they just don't have your vision and or your persnickety ness to make things exactly the way you want it. Right, and maybe that's being a perfectionist, but, you know, I I've heard stories of other authors who are also designers who gave up that right someone else. And they were really, really frustrated, like they would spit covers and they would get all turned around. And I just had a really great working relationship with my editor and all the people on that team that they trusted me and I trusted them and we just really worked together well, and it's, it worked out really well. And it's interesting, you mentioned that the book being hand lettered. Mike Rohde 24:58 Actually, one of the things that I I realized as a print production designer was, I do not want to hand write this whole book, because there's going to be too many typos that I'm going to make. So I actually reached out to a friend and said, Hey, do you know somebody who does typeface work? And he's Yeah, sure, this guy named Dell wetherington. Does that work? So I reached out, and he was willing to make a typeface out of my handwriting. So we did several different fonts. And that's what we use to produce the book. So it made it like almost like typesetting like you would use Microsoft Word or something. And then in the end, we had turned that into a product now you can actually buy that typeface for your own projects called the Sketchnote typeface. So, you know, this thing that we did for the book purpose ended up being, you know, an asset later that people use it. In fact, three weeks ago, I saw an ad in a Costco. flyer in my email was using my typeface. So it's, it's pretty crazy how you think it's a one time thing, and it can often have greater impacts. And maybe you imagined in the first place. Marc Gutman 25:59 Yeah, I mean, that's going to be quite the feeling when you see your own typeface and the Costco flyer, and you tell Dell, if he's ever looking for a model of a typeface that's legible. I would be happy to to be you could use my handwriting. You This is like, but it makes me feel a lot better that that was typeset versus, versus hand drawn. Mike Rohde 26:18 Most of it Marc Gutman 26:19 Yeah, yeah. Mike Rohde 26:19 Some of it, Some of it was handwritten, like some of the, in the sketches, Sketchnotes, do have people's actual handwriting. But I mean, the body of the text was my, my typeface, which, you know, Delve was pretty sneaky. He found out there's a feature in this interfaces you can do called contextual alternates, and some, some software like our page layout software, will use it. And what it does is you can have like 10 different A's and 10 different E's and 10 different ages, and it will randomly rotate through them to make the make the typeface look more random. So especially important for a handwritten style typeface to you know, not like not the same as over and over again, it would actually rotate through I think he, I think he kept it at like four is four characters for each letter that can potentially spin in there randomly. So it gives it a little bit more of a random feel to it, which I thought was kind of a neat little nuance that nobody but me and delve and now your listeners will know about. Marc Gutman 27:19 No, I think that's fascinating. I never knew that that was possible. And just like the or even, you know, just technology, like there's such a custom aspect to it yet. It's it's really brought to us via technology. It's incredible to me. So you mentioned this a little bit. But, you know, what's what's challenging about writing a book like this or writing a book in general? Like, what don't we know? Mike Rohde 27:43 Well, I would say this, if you're thinking about writing a book, I encourage you to do it, because I think I never thought I would write a book. And here I am an author of two books. So I think there is definitely there are definitely books in people. So I would encourage you to do it. Mike Rohde 27:56 But I would also go into suggest you go into it clear, I didn't know that writing a book is a huge undertaking. It's like walking the Appalachian Trail or climbing a mountain. And I say that in the sense that the thing that I learned about writing the first and then the second book was if you're used to pulling all nighters and doing projects, forget it, it doesn't work that way. I, I kind of grew up in the design business where you could like pull all nighters and do like an annual report in a weekend or, you know, stuff like that, you could pull it off, right? You cannot do that with a book, it just doesn't, it won't accept that option. You can do an all, you know, you can spend all weekend and write something, but it's going to be a long haul. So basically know that it's going to be a long haul and sort of plan accordingly. What I found really valuable for me was having a team that would sort of keep me on track and make sure that I was doing the things that I was doing. So editors, editors are hugely important. If you think you can get away without an editor and you're writing a book, then you're fooling yourself. You need editors, both copy editors to make sure you're not saying dumb things to you know, other other editors who make sure that your concepts makes sense and hold up and challenge you and say, Do you really believe that? Is that really true? Like those kind of things, they're going to make your work better? Like it's a pain in the moment, but it's better in the long run. So I think a good team is really important if you're going to write a book, even if you have to assemble it yourself. And then I would say the probably the last thing is, well, I'll say two more things. The next thing is you have to know that in a long haul project like this, it's all about progress. It's not about achieving it. Like I said, you can't pull the weekender and knock out a book, I guess you could but it might be a bad book. But it's gonna take lots of revisions and lots of grinding. You just have to be like, happy with progress, like, Hey, I made progress today. You know, even if it's writing a page or whatever it might be like look at the progress. And know that if you continue along that path that's going to build up into a whole book. And I would say the last thing is, when you write a book and you're done with the book, you're only have done because the other half is promotion. And often that's actually harder than writing the book. So, you know, know that promoting is going to be a ton of work. And that it, it requires a lot of effort to do that as well. And, you know, something I learned in that space was don't do everything, all the ones like so don't have all your podcasts launched on the first day, like spread them out. So they sprinkled through the, you know, a month or something. So it seems like you're everywhere for a month, right? That's gonna be probably your, your best option to get people's attention, you know, repeated repeated action, in their mind is sort of what where it's at. So there's some wisdom for people who are thinking about book, writing and creation. It's definitely worthwhile when you're done. But it's definitely a journey when you're going through it. And if that's okay, I think it's good to have those lifetime experiences where it's, you can't do it in weekend, you can do it over months. Marc Gutman 30:56 Yeah, and so much more to a book than just as you mentioned, writing it, you know, there's the promoting and thinking about what you're going to do. That's, that's great advice. And thank you so much for sharing that. This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product or a brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you, when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. I'd like you to take a moment and think back and do you have a clear recollection of like when this thing sketchnoting was born? When you look down in your notebook? And you're like, I've got a Sketchnote! Mike Rohde 32:28 I actually do. And it's the funny thing is is like it actually started earlier than I realized, but I just didn't know what it was. And that that actually tracks with so many people that I've met that said, oh, I've been doing sketchnoting for so long. And I just never knew what to call it, which is a great feeling. Right? I was sort of the lucky one that got to name it and the name that stuck. But I do remember that actually, the first sketchnote that I call a Sketchnote is one I did in early 2007. Mike Rohde 32:53 That's really where I think it started, where I intentionally went to a conference in Chicago, from Milwaukee on the train design conference, with a different mindset around note taking up into that point, for probably three, four years, I'd somehow gotten myself to a place where I wrote like everything down and I use the pencil so I could race mistakes. And I had a giant notebook. Like and it was a huge burden I hate I was really good at it. And I hated it. It was the worst. And so early in 2007, I found that I can't take it anymore. I got to do something else. And as a designer, I'm always faced with constraints and restrictions. You know, you can only have this many colors, you got to use that typeface. You got to use my ugly logo, all those kind of things are always in my life, right? So I thought, well, what if I put a if I put some constraints on myself, what would happen if I did that? So I thought, let's now that you know, it's time I didn't think about it. But I kind of did it. George Costanza, remember that episode of George Costanza decides to do everything opposite of what he normally does. And then he like, starts dating a beautiful woman and gets the job of his dreams. You know, all these good things are happening because he's doing the opposite. It felt kind of like that, where I said, Okay, I'd normally carry a big book, what if I carry a pocket book? I usually use a pencil. What if I use a gel pen. So those are sort of my first two decisions. I sort of boxed myself in. On the train. All I had with me was a pocket moleskin that I bought, I don't know, a month before and didn't know what to do that because it was too beautiful. I finally had a purpose for the thing. And then I had these jeetu gel pens if that. Okay, I'm just going to take these two things. I'm going to show up at this conference and see what comes out because I really wasn't sure. And once I sat down, the interesting side effect of these two limitations was I was faced with the fact that I couldn't write everything down that I normally did. And that when I did write stuff down, it couldn't I couldn't erase it because it was ink. So it's sort of put my put my mindset in a different place. My mindset now shifted to I need to really be thinking about what's being said right now. I can't, I can't just write everything down and maybe describe Ever later, I got to think about it. Now I got to really listen closely, I have to really analyze what they're saying, decide if it's worth me putting on the page, because I'm using a pen, and then put it down. And from my perspective, I suddenly had tons of free time, because before I was just writing, writing, writing, writing, I never had time to think twice. So suddenly, for me, I had all this free time to do like, the lettering that I loved, and drawing images that were popping up in my head or sketching something from one of the slides. And I, I really loved it, I got to the end of that day, and I just felt like this is the this is the solution. I have to keep doing this. And I kept looking for opportunities to go to conferences and kept trying it. And that was really that conference in 2007 was really where I think sketchnoting was born for me, intent that, you know, with intention. And when I look back to my college years, when I was in that, remember I said I switched from printing to design. I happened to dig up my old notebooks from those years of after sketchnoting and sort of taken off and said, holy cow, I was doing sketchnoting I was doing this exact same thing in my classes. I was trying. And I was writing and I was doing lettering, and I'm like, how did I forget that? What what happened to me over these last couple years. And I think looking back now I sort of realized that the technology side of me sort of took over I got into palm pilots and powerbook duo's and I you know, I started typing everything. And you know that I just sort of shifted my mind to a different place. So when I went back to analog and books, I just kept following the assumption that I had a keyboard in my hands, and I could write everything instead of really realizing that, you know, that thing I did in college is actually really effective for remembering and studying from. And I ended up not realizing that I would stumble back into what I actually had been doing before. So I didn't call it sketchnoting back then. But it really, when I look back at it, it is what I was doing. So I think I was probably doing it all through college and probably back into high school to some degree in some form or another but never really intentionally, like as a thing like I would call 2007, where I really put all the pieces together and realize, hey, this really works. And I was aware of it. Before I sort of just did it naturally. And accidentally here is where I really did it with intentionality. Marc Gutman 37:20 Yeah. And so if you weren't calling it sketchnoting, at that time, when did you have a name for it? Or were you just like, Hey, this is just the way I do it. Mike Rohde 37:27 That was just the way I did it. I didn't have a name for it. It's kind of funny. Marc Gutman 37:31 And then so you're, you're Mike, you're doing your thing, you are taking notes in your own visual way. And like most great things I have to imagine, I mean, you're doing it for you. I mean, you're not probably thinking, Hey, this is a speaking tour. This is a this is a book like when does it become a thing? Like when do you start to get? Where does it start to become like a real part of your life? Both? I guess it's already become a part of your life from a conference standpoint, but like professionally, like what all of a sudden, do you become like the Sketchnote guy? Mike Rohde 38:03 Well, there's sort of a couple of points along the way. So this is early 2007, when this first thing happened. And I kept on wanting to try it. So I think it was in the summer or the spring or late spring, early summer. And the guys who are on Basecamp. Now that used to be called 37 signals, they decided to do a conference at their at a space that they had access to for like 150 people. And so I said, I'd really like these guys. And I said I'm going to go do this conference. And this would be a good chance to test out this note thing, the sketchnoting thing that I'm playing with and see how it works in this kind of setting. Right. So I went to that event and I did that event and Jim Kou doll who's friends with the base camp, guys. They're also Chicago firm. They're like an ad firm. They do. They're the guys behind the field notes. If you know what field notes are. Marc Gutman 38:49 Yeah, my friend Aaron draplin, who's been on the show has also partnered— Mike Rohde 38:52 Yeah, partnered up with those guys. So they could all partners found my Sketchnotes on Flickr somehow. And they put it on their blog, and then 37 signals whose Basecamp they put it on theirs. And that's that was a really big bump in like awareness, people started being aware of it. And I kept doing it and doing it. And I went to South by Southwest that following spring, I think 2008 and did it and I published it again, at the time I was publishing on Flickr and I use Creative Commons, I intentionally use Creative Commons because at the time, it was pretty popular. And the thing that I liked about it was I retained all my rights to the work. But I could build in usage rights right into the licensing. And what that meant at the time was bloggers, if they found the images compelling. Mike Rohde 39:40 They could just use an embed code and stick it right in their blog, and they wouldn't have to ask me for any permission because I'd already pre given it to them. So that was really important in spreading the concept and that that got back to the South by Southwest leadership. So the next year they said Hey, Mike, if we give you a pass this off by Will you come in sketchnote officially, like spend the whole week and just capture the experience of being here. Like, yeah, sure. So that was my next event. So that was a really important one. Because that's South by Southwest in 2009. I wanted to see like, could I handle this for a whole week, and what would get tired first, my brain or my hands. And it turned out, my brain actually got more tired than my physical body did, just from all the thinking and analyzing, but it was a blast, I really loved it. And that, so that was a really important point, because then that sort of spread it even further. And then it was around 2011, or something like that is when the book stuff happened. in between there, there was a point where I created Sketchnote army, and that was basically this desire to share other people's work, I had been sharing and pumping my own work. And I just felt like, it's not so much fun to be doing this alone. I mean, I started seeing other people doing and it seemed like there's a movement, and maybe I should be the one to capture this in one place. Because it was really hard at the time, around 2008 2009. To find this stuff. You just had to scrounge everywhere. I thought, well, what if what would happen if I invited people to submit their stuff, and we just put it on our website, then you just go to one place, and you could see the stuff. So that was an important moment in 2009. And shortly after that, the book deal came out. And in between there, you know, I did illustration work for the guys that Basecamp for rework, and then later remote. So that was those are also, you know, points that sort of brought awareness to that work, right. So they I think they all sort of added up over time, and it just kept building. And once I wrote the book, you think after doing all that work on the book, and there's a video that we did, that suddenly would take off, and I think it did pretty well. But, you know, nobody knew who I was, other than maybe they saw a book. So it took a little while for it to kick in. But it just kept on growing and growing. I think the idea was that Seth Godin always talks about if the idea is good, you're probably not going to be able to stop it. And I think that's sort of what what happened, right? I sort of solved the problem in my own life, which was I hated taking notes in this old, dreary way. And I found a way that made sense to me. And I figured, well, it solved the problem for me, there's probably a few other people out there that it could help. And it turned out there were a lot of few other people out there, right. So I think that's why it just kept on growing and growing. And I just look back at these certain pivot points where it almost like, you know, hit a point and accelerated, and it just continues to do that. And now, there's tons of people doing it and teaching it and sharing it. And I really like that I love having lots of voices in the space, I think it just verifies that it's a real thing. And it's definitely a benefit to people who adopt it. And it makes you know, being in a community is way more fun than being all alone. So there's lots of benefits to the way that it's worked out over these many years. Marc Gutman 42:48 Yeah, and yeah, and I can even my own experience, it's like, I've been a part of some long term education classes and things like that. And there's just something magical about the Sketchnotes, right, like, people see me doing it, and they're drawn to it. Like, I think everyone wants to do it as well. Like, it's like this universal way of, of communicating. That's just so incredible. And so, when did you coin it? Sketchnoting? What, like, when did you be like, when were you like, this is the name? Mike Rohde 43:16 I think, actually. So it's really funny that all that stuff happened in the first that first 2007 I think the first 2007 was where I realized, it feels like I should call it Sketchnoting. Before that, it's funny, like, up to that point, I was it was like the promo name for it was sketch tunes, like I was it was sort of like was cartoons and sketching. But when I did this event, it was a little less like cartoons and just more like sketching and noting and that word just came to me. So it was right after right at that event, when I just really started calling it Sketchnoting. And I don't know, for whatever reason, that name seemed to make sense to a lot of people and they liked it even over the more established names that existed before like graphic recording, which is kind of a different thing. or visual notetaking like, you know, Sketchnoting just has a little bit more of a branding ring to it, I guess, you know, it's less clunky and it's descriptive and it's concise and it just seems to work so that's that's sort of when it popped up was right at about that same time as the first Sketchnotes kind of appeared in my head. I had a name for them, so I guess it was destined to be. Marc Gutman 44:25 Destined to be, and so is Sketchnoting now your your full time gig, is that what you do for a living? Mike Rohde 44:32 It isn't actually it's something I do on the side. I do pretty steadily on the side. It's kind of my side, my side gig. I primarily I work as a principal designer, doing user experience and service design for large organization. I really like it I like working in a team I like I still have a real love for design in general service design, specifically solving you know the company work for isn't a big industrial company. Mike Rohde 45:01 So there's all kinds of opportunities to apply these ideas. And, you know, visualization opportunities like crazy, because so much stuff is just bad PowerPoint. So the opportunity to do illustrations and Sketchnote and even, you know, doing using my design skills in that space is really, really powerful. And I see lots of upside and opportunity. So a lot of why stay there. And you know, I've got a family as well. So it's good steady work, and it allows me to do this stuff on the side. And so far, it's worked out pretty well. Marc Gutman 45:33 Yeah, not too bad. Not too bad. And so do you have, you know, I know you're probably not like your children, right? You're probably not supposed to talk about your favorite Sketchnote. But do you have a favorite that you just, you look back and you're like, you know what, that's that's the full expression of Mike. That's, that's, that's it. Mike Rohde 45:52 There's a couple of them. But if I if I was forced to pick one, there's one that's in my Flickr feed, that I still love that still has really fun memories for me. And it's the story behind it is that I was doing a work project in the Oakland area in San Francisco, and we ended up going to shape nice, we couldn't get into the main shape, nice. But we got into the cafe, which is like a smaller venue, we got reservations for myself and to work colleagues. And I happen to have my notebook along. So I pulled my notebook out. And after I would finish a course, I would sketch out what it was and built this whole little two page Sketchnote in my notebook. And it just really has like a captures everything like a captures a moment in time a really great meal. With two good friends. If you look at it, it's not really it's all black and white. So there's no color. Mike Rohde 46:40 Some of the stuff that I drew is not really super detailed. Like it's not a standard illustration. It's not a piece of art, it's more of a, it's a Sketchnote. It's like the purest expression of a Sketchnote for me, and I really, every time I see that I'm like, wow, that that really turned out really good. And it was actually it's kind of old. It's like 2012 it was right around the time. Not too not too long, before I started on book work, so I was really fortunate that I had the opportunity and that one among others. There's some other ones that I really like as well. But that if I was forced to pick one, that would be it. Marc Gutman 47:14 All right, paper or iPad, you know, I was really I got your headshot in for the the press kit. And you're standing with an iPad. And you know, I I don't I'm not surprised I'm actually using an iPad right now. And I think it has Oh, by the way, there you are. But as we're talking I'm drawing Mike but um, yeah, I pad or paper or both? Mike Rohde 47:38 I'm a both person I think of I started think like when the iPad Pro and the pencil came out, that was the moment where the iPad became useful to me as a drawing tool. Like I'd used it before, for reading for like, part of my book, I actually typed in an iPad with the keyboard. So I mean, it had been useful to me. But as a illustration tool, a serious illustration tool when the pencil came out, which I think is 2017 or 18. That's when I picked it up. And I saw the value. And I always think of like, you know, I think there's sort of a desire always to like say, Oh, the iPad is a paper killer. It's like, Why does it have to kill it? Like, why can't I use both? Right? Mike Rohde 48:15 You know, you go and do a professional mechanics toolbox, they're not going to say wrench or hammer. Right there, they need both of them. Because in some cases, you need a wrench. In some cases, you need a hammer, sometimes you need a six point wrench because man that bolt is on their heart, and you've shot it with some penetrating oil, and you're gonna have to wail on that thing. And like a adjustable wrench isn't going to work, right. So even within wrenches, there's specific things right. So I think of like the iPad is sort of one tool, and it depends on what I'm doing. Like if I need to do lots of changes. So like client work, or have to go back and modify things or move things or I want the ability to shift things, that is often the best choice. And then there's other times when I want to use paper when I don't want to be potentially distracted, right? The problem with an iPad is you're like a second away from Twitter or Facebook or who knows what, right so and the battery can run out. I mean, they made the batteries last a long time. But if you forgot to charge it, you know, now all of a sudden, you've got a Karen feeding issue, write up a notebook and a pen, you know, it's probably gonna run the other. The other funny thing I always say is like, you know, you know how many pieces of paper and beautiful pens you could buy for the cost of an iPad, like you have a lifetime supply for what you pay for an iPad. Now, that's not to knock the iPad, it is a valuable tool, but it's always again about what's the right what's the right purpose for the tool. And so I look at it as a spectrum all the way from, you know, paper to an iPad and I choose the thing that makes sense, or that I feel is right and I just like having options, I guess. Marc Gutman 49:50 Yeah, and that makes complete sense. But you know, you're talking about paper and, and pen and we were talking right before we recorded about just you know Kind of this there's something magical about pen and paper, you know. And so it was what's your favorite combination the gf got going right now. And if you're anything like me, it changes like mine has changed. Yeah, over time, you know, but but I kind of come back to the same, the same kind of combo more often than that. Mike Rohde 50:17 Well, the last couple years, I've become an ambassador for this company called Norland, it's a German company that makes markers. For graphic recorders. Graphic recording is basically like sketchnoting. Except graphic recorders typically work at large scale, they typically work in front of the room. So everybody watches them while they doing while they're doing it, they have to be very skilled at listening and trying. And these tools are built for those people. But they realize the value of sketchnoting and they're starting to build more tools for Sketchnoters. So they have a variety of tools that I really like the fine one line, which is designed for sketchnoters in mind, have some really nice tools. Mike Rohde 50:53 The thing I like about New Zealand too, is every one of them now is refillable. So you can buy bottles of ink and refill your pens and just keep reusing them. If your nibs get squishy, because they're felted you can pull the nibs out and put new nibs in so they're in effect. They're like lifetime investments, kind of like the tools I was mentioning, right. So those are really great tools and the the colors and the quality of the pigments are really great. So it's not a hard thing to choose. As far as gel pens go, you're exactly right, I started jumping around. For the last little while I've been really into good old Paper Mate flares like you had in junior high school black paper, mate flair and boxes. And I just you know, as they get too mushy, I just go to the next one. And they just have a really nice, there's something about the feel of it that I really like. So that's another one. And then I'm always like checking the latest gel pens and trying stuff out. The latest one that I really liked is Sharpie of all pens has come out with a gel pen. And the one that I stumbled onto is a 1.0. So if you know your thicknesses of pens, it's really wide pen. But I love it because it just lays down this nice black line, it's really juicy. But because it's gel like dries nearly immediately, so I don't have to worry about smearing it so much. So that's sort of my latest gel pen that I'm into. And then as far as books go, I did a Kickstarter campaign with my friend Mike Ciano last year. And we basically designed a sketch notebook that's ideal for sketchnoting. So it's really thick, hundred 60 GSM kind of a thick, almost cardstock like paper and bright white, and a polymer cover that's really tough, and then guides inside, but the paper inside is really fantastic. So actually really, I really use my own notebooks to do sketchnoting with and then for, you know, if I'm doing bullet journaling, which I do every day, I've been using the leuchtturm brand, a bullet bullet journal or the dot grid books. And then there's also no Island is just released one that's a little bit bigger, that I've been using for a while since they sent me one as an ambassador, and I've been testing it, it's been actually really nice. It's a little bit bigger than a typical five and a half by half sheet so I get a little bit more space. So I've been enjoying that. So those are a couple couple things that I've been using pretty regularly and quite enjoy. Marc Gutman 53:11 Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, I have long been electrum fan. And that's been my go to book but I've actually got one of yours on the way and I'm very excited to to try that. Mike Rohde 53:22 I'd love to hear what you think of the paper and all that stuff as a product and branding guy. Marc Gutman 53:26 Yeah, as well as the Newland pens. Yeah, I was hoping that pink I like to make extra colors pink, you know, I like that a lot. And that didn't have it, but it had smooth. So I got some I got some other stuff that I'm very excited about. And like I were talking about before the show started I could just really geek out and try different pens. I like to you know, my goat my go to that I keep coming back to is actually the the pilot Gtech that has that like kind of scratchy feel, and it's a thinner line but like I have less control as I do because I like I'll crosshatch or that's all fill it in. But like or even in your technique, I'll do multiple lines down. But now I also feel like that's a little bit for me was like a more of a beginner pen less control, I can control the ink and, and I do like playing with Federline pens as well Mike Rohde 54:12 it is interesting how like the pen you use can impact the way you draw. So like a real thick pen will sort of produce a certain kind of a, it almost puts you in I'm in a mind state or something. And if you use a thin pen, it's put you in a different mind state. You wouldn't think so. But I've noticed it's subtle, but it actually is there. And it's it's it also sounds like if you and I went into an Office Max or an Office Depot, we'd be the guys standing at the pens the pen aisle like for an hour like look oh look at that one. Marc Gutman 54:41 Never tire I've got like pen cases for like even like like armful of pens. Yeah, I keep finding like pen cases with like pens that I packed for a trip that like then I like sit down I pick up I'm like oh my gosh, like I've got all these pens like I forgot that I even like packed for a trip just in case you know. So, Mike as we as we come to this Our time here. What's next for sketchnoting? Where do you see this going? We're ready. Hope it goes? Mike Rohde 55:07 Well, I'm really excited about a couple things. So one thing that's really excited and I have a little tiny bit to do with, but actually pretty small is it's moving into education. And the reason it's moving into education is because teachers are like totally crazy for sketchnoting. And they're crazy for it because of a couple things. Because the teachers told me this, that they see their students really embracing it, their students are actually much more engaged when they teach, because they're being given the the right to do doodling in class. Mike Rohde 55:41 Now, of course, it's directed toward the subject, but they get to do drawing and doodling and stuff. So they get engagement. And then the, the other benefit that teachers seem to be really excited about is, when they use sketchnoting. In the classroom, the students actually remember a lot more, right. So it becomes this really great tool that gives them the ability to analyze and process which a teacher wants and then remember more. So when they go to a test, they can actually do better. In fact, I have one friend in the Fresno school district in the science department that does something called sketch booking, which uses the sketching technique in it. And I believe she lets the students like as they learn stuff in science they get, they have to draw it in their sketchbook and it gets graded. And then a test time, I believe they have open book testing

BGBS 054: Andy Starr | Level C | Different Is So ImportantAndy Starr is a provocateur in the niche landscape where education, business, and brand co-exist. He sees the value in being different and finds comfort in creating change. Even as a kid, he liked being the black sheep. He didn't identify with the lead singer in a band or the striker making goals in soccer, he always wanted to be the drummer in the back or the goalie with a different uniform. With 17+ years of agency experience, Andy continues to move the needle forward with co-founder/brand master Marty Neumeier, as they educate leaders in the evolution of brand within business through their platform, Level C. You'll learn that Andy believes in more than just using strategy to sell. He believes in people, storytelling, and provoking emotion. Andy believes that provocation can be good and different can be important, inspiring us to ask ourselves how can we each embrace our differences to provide value to the world. In this episode, you'll learn…Andy considers himself to be a provocateur in the professional education space. To him, this means being different for the sake of being valuable. In the professional education realm, what needs to change is access, quality of content, relevance of content, and applicability of concepts. Andy and Marty Neumeier care about progressing professional education through the lense of brand. On the higher academic level, much of what is studied focuses on theory. The purpose of this is to teach you to think critically and prepare you for a world that is constantly evolving. With this in mind, analytic thought will always be relevant. Andy grew up in a conservative, change-resistant part of the world. Growing up, he always wanted to do the complete opposite of what was expected of him. When he learned the payoff of being different it transformed his whole world. Andy was always enraptured by the drums. He resonated with drummers the most but didn't begin playing himself until college. When he did, he expresses it as meeting himself for the first time. While in law school, Andy helped his girlfriend with her graphic design clients and found more interest in that than what he was studying. She introduced him to The Brand Gap and he fell in love with the book. Marty was a great influence to Andy, and he messaged him many times with his accomplishments to prove himself worthy of being mentored. When Andy first visited Marty's apartment, he found a highly used, beat-up version of The Brand Gap that he thought may have been a first edition. He later learned that it belonged to the one and only, Steve Jobs. Level C's purpose is to bring the role of brand to the C suite so that business is done with the people in mind. By doing so, real change can happen within business, and in turn, the world. Brands do not control their audience, they influence them (and even that has a limit). A brand's stance will provide more context to where you stand in regards to their position, whether that is with or against them. ResourcesLinkedIn: Andy Starr Instagram: @the_andy_starr Level C Website: levelc.org Quotes[15:55] Different matters because we think that there's something in it for us. Whether it's noticing something different, or acting, feeling wanting to be different, there is a perceived payoff to that. When I realized that, when that was revealed to me and for me, my whole perspective on everything changed. [19:25] I actually started playing drums. That was something that I always wanted to do. Even as a little kid, I was always attracted not to the guitarist, or the lead singer, or the pianist, I was always attracted to the guy sitting in the back, because the guy sitting in the back was always the one that I felt in my chest, in my gut. [51:56] What we're trying to do with Level C is we're trying to put in, or depending on your perspective, restore the role of brand into the C suite. To restore the role of brand into a position of influence on the business side, a position of relevance to the business and the consumer side…to influence the way people think about this stuff. And we believe that when they think about it, when they learn, and they think, and they process, and then they practice, real change can happen. [53:01] We're not looking to change the world. We're looking to change a part of business because we do believe that if you change business enough, then the world can be changed. Podcast TranscriptAndy Starr 0:02 That romantic sense of the trajectory of my life or what I thought that trajectory needed to be, where it was always there, I couldn't shake it no matter how hard I tried, until I actually started playing drums. That was something that I always wanted to do. I always, you know, even as a little kid, I was always attracted not to the guitarist or the, the lead singer, or, you know, you know, the pianist, I was always attracted to the guy sitting in the back, because the guy sitting in the back was always the one that you felt, or the one that I felt in my chest in my gut, right. And the drummer always seemed like, like the black sheep. And I honestly couldn't necessarily tell you why that was, but it always was. Marc Gutman 0:54 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman. I'm Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Backstory, we are talking with Andy Starr, co founder and partner of the brand education company Level C. And while I have your ear, if you're listening, I'm assuming you like our show. And if that premise holds true, then please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Better yet, please recommend this show to at least one friend you think will like it. If this is your first time listening, please consider subscribing. It is your subscriptions that make this show possible. Alright, enough of that stuff. Let's get back to the show. Andy Starr's bio describes him as a provocateur for hire at the intersection of education, business and brand. And while that is a super cool bio, I think he's so much more than that. Yes, he's a provocateur. But he's also a thought leader, an empath, an educator, an entrepreneur, a brand nerd, a people person, the partner to branding legend, an author, Marty Neumeier. I hope I can call him a friend and he calls me the same. But if you ask Andy who he is, he'll probably say none of all that and simply tell you, he's a musician. With 17 plus years of agency and in house experience across multiple categories of client business, including special focus on nonprofit and higher education. Andy is equal parts strategist, creative manager, and storyteller. I first met Andy is one of his students via the Level C program. Level C is an education platform. They're a company and a certification focused on all things brand. I've personally attended, and surprisingly, graduated both levels one and two. And all I can tell you is that there's something special about what they are building. How Andy sees the world. In his relationship with brand Master, Marty Neumeier. Andy is an accomplished brand professional in his own right. And well on his way to becoming a brand icon. Just don't tell him that. And this is his story. I am here with Andy Starr. He describes himself as a provocateur for hire at the intersection of education, business and brand. He is also the co founder and partner at Level C and we'll talk a bit about that. But Andy, what is a provocateur for hire at the intersection of education, business and brand? Andy Starr 4:20 That's what I like to think of a brand professional as being, someone who pokes the bear, someone who's looking to, you know, everyone's favorite word, zag. You know, when if everyone is doing this over here, I want to be the guy doing this over there, okay? And just you know, sometimes being different for the sake of being different, but professionally being different for the sake of being valuable. And that's what this whole thing is it's provocation. provocation can be bad, but provocation can be really good. It can be valuable, it can mean something. And that's how I see myself I just see myself as a provocateur for Hire less for hire these days, just, I'm getting tired of doing client work. You know, I want to focus more on being provocative in the professional education space. So, you know, and that is that is where we find ourselves, you know, at the intersection of business and education. You know, education is a business, I've had several education clients, universities and colleges that that refuse to acknowledge that they're a business at the end of the day, that makes my job as a brand provocateur more difficult. So when Marty and I started this, I was just like, let's just call it what it is, let's let's, let's not gloss, spin, blow smoke. Education in business is where we are. It's what we do. And it's what we're looking to transform, you know, then leave leave, leave the bullshitters to play in other spaces that they just make up, or that they they ignore. So that's, that's my jam. Marc Gutman 6:00 Yeah. And so, you know, you're talking about being a provocateur in the education space, which leads me to believe that there's something wrong with the education space, at least as we see it today. That holds true, please correct me if I'm incorrect in making that assumption. What's wrong with education today? Like, what are you trying to change? Andy Starr 6:19 Oh, man, you don't have enough time in your podcast. The big problem with education is its inability, or refusal to accept the fact that it needs to change. And there are 1,000,001 ways in which it needs to change, it needs to change from an administrative perspective, it needs to change from an academic perspective, it needs to change from a financial perspective. And it needs to change from a distribution perspective. So for us, in the professional education, part of the sandbox, we believe that education should be a life long thing, it should go on forever, we should, you should no one should ever want to stop learning. Most people don't. But access, quality of content, relevance of content, applicability of concepts, that needs to change. And we're not proposing that we, we are like the savior of education, we don't think that we're the savior of professional education, we want to, we want to practice what we preach and live up to what we believe. And so when it comes to professional education, we want to keep it focused on you know, we're not branding and marketing and sales and advertising content and social media. rebrand, and we're not, we don't want to take a how to brand approach to education, we just want to say, here's how you think about education, right? So when we think about our academic perch, we're not giving people prescriptions, we're just giving them food for thought. Okay, but that's not really out there. There are people who do it, you know, there, there are outlets, there are providers that do it. But there are fewer and farther between. and at a higher academic level, like MBA programs, there are really no MBA programs that talk about brand. If you want to find brand and Wharton's MBA program, you have to specialize more focus in marketing, you have to take marketing courses at Wharton. And, you know, hopefully you hear about brand at some point, but they don't talk about how to think about brand. That's just a loose example. So it's a big mountain to climb, dude. And Marty and I care very much about education, I especially care about education, my professional background and my family's background. I have educators in my family, my father was a professor, my grandfather was a university founder, he fell, he co founded a university and was an academic dean. And it's, I just care about it, it just matters. And so that's the space we want to play in. Marc Gutman 9:07 And I definitely want to get into that. And we might go there real soon here. And as he is you're talking like this idea of education remaining. You mentioned a lot of great points, you know, applicability and accessibility and just availability, but this, this idea of like education, having to remain relevant, and I'm personally just obsessed with this idea of like, relevance, and what does that mean, and how do you stay relevant? Because what struck me as you were your speaking is that Yeah, like our education gets stale really quick, especially in today's environment. It's not like, back in the day when the university held the professors and the university, you held the books and you had to go there and that was the only access you had to that information. And then the world was also moving equally as slow. But now, you know, we can we can Learn from a TED talk from someone around the world from someone we've never had access to put that in, in motion change the world. And so this idea of like staying relevant, and not even really sure, I have a question for you at the end of this is just fascinating to me. And that, you know, that really seems to be a huge challenge for people in the education space. Andy Starr 10:20 For sure. And like you said, one of the catalysts of that, you know, are sources of that challenge, is because unlike 30 4050 years ago, the world is just hyper connected. I don't even know if that's accurate. And it's just, we are all connected. We move and we think, and we learn and we consume at faster and faster speeds. Right? And so it raises the question of the role of immediacy, in education, right? Because and, and speed and immediacy, I think, are part of its relevance, right? How quickly can I have access to the educational content? How quickly can I consume it? How quickly can I be deemed to be proficient? And how quickly can I get out back in the real world, and actually use it and make a difference, bring value and earn something in return? Right? Those questions, raise 1000 more questions. So it's, it's complicated. It's it's super, super tricky. But, you know, another thing about relevance is, and this is something that we, we've actually tackled in our first level masterclass. For the teams that worked on higher education as a category to disrupt, right, we've heard things about kind of the cadence, or the formulaic structure of education, and this is something that Marty feels especially strong about, traditionally, is and even today, kind of the model of education is, you know, at that at the college and beyond level is like, you study theory, right? You spend four years, two years, you know, three years unless you studied theory, and then you go out in the world, and you learn gain us skills, right? But while you're studying that theory, it's like, What am I supposed to do with this? How does this how does how is this theory relevant to the world that I'm about to land in? Or that it's about to fall on me one way or another? How do I how do I survive just with this theory? And so you know, there's one school of thought, that says, you know, learn the skills first, and then continue lifelong learning and learn that theory, have a greater appreciation, a better ability to think critically and analytically. Right. But the flip side to that argument is, well, that's what a liberal arts education is in liberal arts teaches you how to think critically. And analytically, you're reading about history and philosophy, and literature, you're not doing that just for shits and giggles, right, you're not doing it solely to feed the ego of a tenured professor, although that that is part of it. It prepares you for a world that is constantly evolving. A world in which the kind of one career from start to finish doesn't exist the way it used to, with a few exceptions. And you have to be able to think critically and analytically so that you're flexible enough to kind of jump from one chapter of your career to the next from one role to another, from one category to another, and in some cases, making a complete career change from one to another. And I did that, right. And so we've altruistically, we sleep very well at night. Because we know that what we're doing is righteous, it's self righteous, we want to make a valuable contribution in this space. But at the same time, it's not that we've set ourselves up for failure is that it's a huge mountain to climb, and we will most certainly never get to the peak of it. But that's okay. That's okay. Marc Gutman 14:17 So much to unpack there and so, I'm not even gonna try. What I'd like to do is— Andy Starr 14:21 Talk to my therapist, I'll call her! Marc Gutman 14:25 I'd like to shift gears a little bit. And, you know, you talked a little bit about your family and your family history. But you know, and you also mentioned that part of being a provocateur is is being different and so when you were young, were you always striving to be different as a child. I mean, was this was this ingrained in you? Is like eight year old Andy always pushing boundaries? Andy Starr 14:46 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, I grew up in a relatively conservative minded white collar family. Dad was a lawyer mom was a social worker, and We lived in the suburbs of Philadelphia, and it was a relatively conservative, change resistant part of the world change resistant parents. And yeah, I was kind of a black sheep. I just, you know, if everyone told me to do one thing, I just wanted to do the complete opposite. I liked feeling and being different. But that's as a kid, you know, that I didn't understand the value in that. And it wasn't, it wasn't really until I got into this work. 2030 years later that I understood, why being different, wanting to feel different, look different, act different. Think different, is so important, and why I cared about it so much without understanding why and and, you know, Marty, we talked about this in the class, it's, you know, human beings are hardwired to notice what's different. But it's the why we're hardwired, we different matters, because we think that there's something in it for us. Whether it's noticing something different, or acting, feeling wanting to be different, there is a perceived payoff to that. And that when I when I realized that when that was kind of revealed to me, and for me, my whole perspective, my perspective on everything changed on life on career. And then when I realized how I could weaponize that and use that in this space, like, everything just kind of broke, broke open. And, but but but it, it bears it bears repeating. And like, I feel like the need to constantly say it, it's not being different. For the sake of being different. There's a reason for it. The reasons may be my own, right. The reasons may be a client's goals, it kind of doesn't matter. But there are reasons for doing it. There are reasons for wanting to do it. And there's sure shit reasons for learning how to think about that. Right. And again, it all comes back to learning to think. But I'm not, we don't teach you I would never teach someone how to be different. But we do talk about and I'm happy to talk about thinking about being different. Marc Gutman 17:23 Yeah, and I think thinking about being different is the for me at least the the key idea because inherently, we don't want to be different. I mean, our childhoods could have been very similar, except I grew up in Detroit new grew up in Philadelphia, but I remember, like, I felt different, but I didn't want to be different, you know, and being different,there was always this ying and this Yang between like and tention between being different and people saying, that's what makes you special. And the reality of like, we want to be part of groups, and we want to fit in and we want to be the same. And I think, you know, we can talk about this later. But I think that's the trap brands fall into all the time is that they, they want to fit in, they want to be seen, like they they're scared to be different. And they're thereby they try to fit in and then they get bland and they get diluted and all these things. Things happen. So, you know, when you were a kid when you were looking around and being different, I mean, what were you into? Like, what were your interests? Like? What did you think you were gonna be? Did you think you were gonna be a provocateur for hire? Did you think you were gonna be an education? Like, what do you think you were gonna do? Andy Starr 18:28 No, I mean, I guess Looking back, I think I had this oddly romantic sense that I would follow in my father's footsteps. You know, I my dad was incredibly important to me. My grandfather was in both my grandfather's were incredibly important to me. And I kind of always saw myself following in one of their footsteps, either a lawyer without knowing what that meant, or understanding why it was just, it was my, what my dad did a university Dean because that's what his father did. Or a psychoanalyst, which is what my other grandfather did. They were, you know, that's, that's what I wanted to do. And I always, even through college, I had that, that that romantic sense of romance, that romantic sense of the trajectory of my life, or what I thought that trajectory needed to be. Where was always there, I couldn't shake it, no matter how hard I tried, until I actually started playing drums. That was something that I always wanted to do. I always, you know, even as a little kid, I was always attracted not to the to the guitarist, or the, the lead singer, or, you know, you know, the pianist, I was always attracted to the guy sitting in the back, because the guy sitting in the back was always the one that you felt, or the one that I felt in my chest in my gut, right? And the drummer always seemed like, like the black sheep, and I honestly couldn't necessarily tell you Why that was but it always was in sports. I was in soccer. I'm still a soccer geek. I played soccer since I was three. Well, when you're a kid, everyone wants to be the striker the forward who scores the goals. I never did. I wanted to be the goalkeeper. Why? Because the goalkeeper got to wear the different shirt, the gloves. And the goalkeeper was always either the hero if he made the big save, or the goat, the bad goat, if he if he botched it and let a golden so drum, you know, the drums and being goalie in soccer. To me, they were always the same thing. All the glory, if you got it a complete, you know, complete disaster if you fuck it up. And for me, there was never I was never satisfied. I never enjoyed To me, the middle ground was boring. It was uninteresting. It's like it was like, it was just nothing and I wanted nothing to do with it. And so my parents encouraged me to play soccer. And as a kid, they wanted me to have nothing to do with the drums because to them, the drums weren't a real musical instrument playing the piano playing the guitar playing, you know, the violin or or saxophone. That was fine with them. Uh, playing drums wasn't and I didn't get to play drums until I got to college. And when I did, I mean, I remember the first time I did it, and that actually changed my life more than almost anything. Because I felt like I was meeting myself and meeting the person I always wanted to be for the first time. Do you remember that day? I totally I, I remember the day I decided no matter what I was going to find a drum set and teach myself. And I remember, I remember the day that I sat down behind a drum set with drumsticks in my hand for the first time. Absolutely. I remember my first gig. And it was all my first my freshman year and it changed everything. It literally changed the trajectory of my life. Marc Gutman 22:04 Where were you that first day you played the drums take us there. Andy Starr 22:08 It was January of 1998, we had just come back from winter break. And there was a senior on campus who was a drummer in a funk band, and the funk band played on campus. And when they would it was like the thing it was like the coolest thing ever. And he you know, kind of did your your typical rock star kind of you know, playing with his shirt off sunglasses cigarette dangling from his lips. And it just drove people nuts. And I was just like, I just need to do that I was super shy. I didn't drink I didn't party. And it was something I always wanted to chase. But it was also a way for me to stand out on my campus. And that was important to me, I wanted to have a good college experience. And up to that point, I really wasn't. And I knew who he was. It took me a semester to work up the courage to approach him. And I on on a January day we were we had been back on campus for like a few days. And I saw him walking and I ran out of the building. I chased him down. It was really, really cold. And I just said, “Hey, you're the drummer in that band. I would love to learn how to play the drums. Could I maybe play on your kit a couple times and see if I can do it?” And I thought it was just gonna say no. And he said, “Yeah, here's the room on campus where they're stored. Here's the code to get in play anytime you want.” And it took me like another week to work up the courage just to go and do that. And I had no idea what I was doing. There was YouTube didn't exist. So I couldn't watch videos on how to do it. But I had a pair of drumsticks that I had, you know, come into my possession along the way. And I sat down. And just for some reason I knew what to do. And it was it became addictive. And I played my very first gig with people a few months later, he had heard me practicing and they wanted to know who was playing. They said, You're really good. What do you want to jam with us? And that and that first gig, I remember the songs we played, was like it was just, it was transformative. And that's so that's what I wanted to do for a long time. I wanted to just be professional musician. I went to music school after college. I wanted to be in a rock band. That's what I wanted to do. Andy Starr 24:29 It didn't play out that way but— Marc Gutman 24:34 Yeah, so what happened? Andy Starr 24:35 Well, you know music piracy, the way the industry change and 02, 03 I wanted to be a musician but I didn't want to be a poor starving musician living out of a van driving six or 800 miles a night from gig to gig just to kind of build up that fan base. I just didn't want that. I wanted to be a musician, not a rock star. So, but I'm still a musician and if people when people ask me like to Talk about myself. I say, you know, I'm a musician, first of Philadelphia and second, you know, and I work in brand third. That is me. Marc Gutman 25:09 Nice. And so but you're not in Philadelphia right now are you? Andy Starr 25:12 No, I left Philly, I left early Jesus like, almost two years ago now. And I was making my way I'm very nomadic right now I was making my way to California through by way of Houston. My best friend lives here and I wanted to see him and I've just gotten stuck here with COVID. So, but I'm Philly, being from Philly is like, you know, other places. It's like an attitude. It's like a state of mind. So I can live it I can live and be anywhere but I'm Philly. Marc Gutman 25:44 Feel like being stuck in Houston, because of COVID is like a great next great like Wes Anderson movie, you know? sounds incredible to me. But so you, you leave college, you go to music school, you're pursuing your love of music, and you decide that you might have to get a real job. And so like, how do you get into like, this brand stuff. I mean, the path isn't always obvious. And I'm guessing it wasn't for you either. Andy Starr 26:14 It wasn't I still didn't know really what brand meant. Then I left music school, I was kind of like in a funk didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't want to be the lawyer that my parents wanted me to be. And my dad working in finance, he and I kind of had had a falling out a little bit we were we had a rocky thing for a few years. And he when he learned that I was going to leave music school, he asked if I would want to kind of learn his business, and maybe build a path, you know, a career and you know, some stability for myself. And I didn't care about the business, but I cared about him. So I did it and and I liked what we were doing. I liked it. That was that was just commercial finance and, and so that was going to be the trajectory of my life. And then it's a much longer story. But things happen professionally with our business and with the economy at the time. And we were professionally we were the victims of fraud. And when that happened, my dad basically lost his business. And I kind of lost a pathway, if you will. And I was very angry, like ferociously angry. And I wanted revenge. And I applied to law school. And I got in. And so I was prepared to do that. And at the time, I was I was in a relationship with a girl and she worked in she was a graphic designer. And she worked like in advertising. And her father was kind of a big name in branding in the branding world. And she she kind of had her own little consultancy, and she would kind of come home from the day and I was trying to study the law. And she was complaining about her clients. And I found myself talking with her about her clients. But I was talking about it from a strategic standpoint, not from a design standpoint. And I found that I was liking that a whole lot more than studying the law between that and her father kind of encouraged me to pursue that and not to pursue the law. And I got out of the like I left law school before it was too late. And I'm really glad I did. And I started kind of doing this loosely with her still not knowing really what Brandman still not really knowing that advertising was like a whole like industry and thing that I could go do professionally. And then one night she suggested that I read a book about branding. And it was called the brand gap. And I had never seen a book like it never heard of the author. But I started reading it and next thing I knew it was the next morning I'd stayed up all night reading it. I just couldn't stop and that experience was probably the other thing that changed my life trajectory. Right? It I just I saw and thought now is the thing I thought about everything. I thought about business I found about people without ever having had any grounding or experience in the concept of brand and literally overnight. I knew exactly what Brandman and from from that point. I knew not only was this interesting, and that I wanted to try it I knew that I could be really good at it. I just knew that I could. It all just made sense in it in some ways. It filled in some gaps for me It helps me think about myself and where I had been in why I was the way I was right and why I am the way I am so it just when that happened when she put brand gap in my hand like that was it. Everything became crystal clear. I ended up stalking Marty for a long time. Like I stalked him online. Found him he was at his his old agency new neutron. And I emailed him and I was just like, hey, read, you know, read the brand gap, I think you're a genius, this is what I want to do, will you be my mentor, please, I need a mentor. And I joke about it, but he basically sent me like a fuck off, I'm too busy email, he didn't use that language. But he that was basically what he was saying. But I didn't care, I kept sending him messages along the way, when I would get my first agency gig when I would get my, you know, produce my first you know, copywriting project, I would just send stuff to him just to see what he would say. And occasionally, he would respond with looks good, keep it up, you know, kind of your, your, your packaged, automated response, right. But I started to try to demonstrate to him that even though I didn't have the experience in the portfolio that a lot of other players in the space had, I thought about it differently. And I thought about it at a much higher and deeper, more impactful level. And he started to respond to me. And at one point, he invited me to come to France to a private workshop, and he was holding with, like, you know, executives, and like super high level designers. He's like, come to the Chateau. It'll be for a week, and you'll, it'll be crazy. It'll change your life. And I didn't go. And it's like the one regret I have professionally. Like, I didn't go to that. But, you know, fast forward Six years later, and look at what I'm doing with him and of all the people in the world who could be doing this episode. Marc Gutman 31:37 Brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you, when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. Crazy, right? And so like six years ago, you have no should I say resume or credential? in this space, you decide that? It's your calling, and it hits you. And how long before like Marty starts to even like, respond to you and you build that relationship. I mean, you kind of jump but I mean, how long are you like sending him like, Hey, I'm still here messages like, hey, like, I, you know, respond. Andy Starr 33:07 I sent him, I sent the very first message to him, like in November of 2009. And then I think I was sending him maybe like one a year, up until like 2014. And I had been basically agency hopping, you know, like shop hopping in between. And then in 24 2013, I sent him something. And that's when he responded with like, Hey, you should come to this workshop. And I, you know, I was like, I don't think I can I'm about to start a new agency gig. You know, and he was like, if you just buy the plane ticket and just come just you don't have don't pay the workshop fee, just just come for free. I would have been the most junior person there. I came this close. But I was starting a new agency gig and an agency I'd really wanted to land in. And I didn't think it was a good idea. And then I didn't I didn't email him. I didn't message him for several years. And then it was in 2017. So it was about three years ago, I had gotten tired of the agency world super tired of it. And I left and I was working at a startup. And they were the startup work in the event space. And they they they were an event business and they had physical space. And they wanted to kind of rebrand themselves, but they also wanted to evolve their product offering. And I started talking with the CEO and we were coming up with ideas of you know, how can we make this event space because at the time, like that was like super commoditized right? And we work was the was becoming the 800 pound gorilla, right? And so there was this idea of using this existing space not just for corporate meetings and events but for education and to come to To fill the schedule, with gurus across different disciplines, leading workshops, that was already happening, but here was a space and we could kind of reposition this business around that. Well, that was cool. But that wasn't wholly unique. And I had this idea to go one step further and find like high level gurus who are already delivering workshops and educational content, and to kind of bring them into this mix. And to do that in partnership with a local business school like a local MBA program. And the idea would be that the MBA program would underwrite a certain of these workshops, right? And allow participants to not just take the workshop, but to earn academic credit towards that schools MBA, that wasn't really being done anywhere, by anyone or any school. And so we decided, like that was, that was a cool idea. We wanted to change it. But we had two challenges. We had to find the gurus, but we also had to find an MBA program willing to do that. So we chased the MBA program first, because to me, that was going to be the bigger lift. But fortunately, a local Philadelphia MBA program, and we had a connection, we had a meeting, we had, we made a proposal to the dean, and we said, let's just give it a shot. Let's do a one on one professional Ed, you know, adult education workshop in a specific topic that we all agree on. And the MBA program will give or make credit available. Let's just see, the dean just was like, Okay, done. Let's try it. Okay. And when we were walking out of the conference room, someone said, by the way, what's the topic? And who's going to be the subject matter expert? We didn't know. And I literally just blurted out, how about brand branding that's relevant to business. And no MBA program really offers that. It's a great, great idea. And who will lead it? And I was like, there's a guy who wrote some books. And they said, Great, set it up. And then I so then I sent Marty an email for the first time in years. And I reminded him who I was. And I told him, here's what we're doing. Here's what we want to try. We want to try it with you. And I really didn't expect a response. I got a response in like 30 minutes. And he's like, let's talk and Marty doesn't like to like do things by email, or by phone, he likes to Skype, or he likes to see you. And I was like, Oh my God, I've never done that before. I've never spoken to him Skype, whatever, we set it up. And we set up a 30 minute kind of intro. That's what I thought it was going to be. It was like a two and a half hour like, thing back and forth. And my entire team was like, behind my laptop, like, like listening. And I'm just jamming with Master. And he said, like, in his entire career, people have come to him with ideas and wanting to partner and said, this was the best idea that anyone had brought to him, like better than lynda.com wanting him to like come in and do that better than LinkedIn learning, wanting him to come in and like be exclusive is like this was it. Okay, crazy. Fast forward a little bit. We were getting everything set up the MBA, there was a problem with the MBA program we pulled out. And then the the startup just it wasn't it wasn't working. They wanted to go in a different direction. They weren't funded properly. And so I bounced, but Marty and I kept talking, we would email and kind of we started asking ourselves like, what if, like, how about, you know, could we blah, blah, blah. And one day, he just said, Look, if they weren't willing or able to do it, why don't you and I just do this ourselves? Why don't you and I just try it? Okay, I flew out to Santa Barbara. He invited me to his home. We locked ourselves in his home studio for like three or four days. And we went through our own process that we teach. We did it on ourselves. And we had this thing basically, in the can, like before I left. And here we are. Yeah. And so Marc Gutman 39:30 Take yourself back to that time in Santa Barbara. I mean, what do you think? And are you just looking around like, I can't believe this is happening like this, you know, this, you know, as they say, the this escalated quickly, right? Like all the sudden, you're in partnership, and I know it's that you've built a relationship over time. And I and I really don't want to minimize that because I think it's a huge thing that I want people to take away from this that you you built a relationship you stayed in front of Marty and when the time was right, it was right for both of you, but It is you're in Santa Barbara, and you're building this thing and you're like, we're doing this thing. Are you just kind of looking around like you're, you mentioned, you're in his studio. I mean, this is, you know, I think for any brand, or you have his books on your desk, I mean, mine, I just put mine just to the side here. But you know, I've typically got stacks of them. I mean, to me, that would be like, whaaatt? Andy Starr 40:17 So I had met him, he, he flew to Philadelphia, while we, you know, after we kind of agreed we were going to try with that startup, he flew to Philadelphia, because he wanted to meet me and the team at the time. And he, he gave us he basically did his brand flip workshop, like, for like, almost nothing, he just wanted to meet us. And so I had the starstruck thing when I picked him up at the airport. That was like, that was bananas. I was like, you know, just a little kid. But when he invited me to out to his home, that's when, for me, it became something different in the coolest thing that we did, there was, you know, I'm in his is his studio. It's like, the kind of studio I would want for myself, you know, and he has, like, on his bookshelf, he has, you know, extra copies of all of his books, and then all of the design and business and strategy books that have influenced him, right. And I'm literally going like book by book, and then I get up to the shelf with extra copies of the brand gap, right? I mean, this is so wild. So out, and they were all like super pristine, right? Except for one copy. There was one copy that was all just beat up and folded and and there were rabbit ears, and there were little postage sticking out of it. And I thought like, that's really weird. Like, why is that up there? like is that his copy? Was that like a is that a first edition? Whatever, I take it down. I'm looking at it. And I'm just, I'm holding it in my oily, you know, hands. And I'm just what is it? And he walked out of the office for a few minutes. And that's when I was doing this. And when it comes back in, I just turned to him. And I'm like, what's the story with this book? Because it's not pristine, like sentimental value. And he's like, Oh, look at the cover. And I looked at the cover and it said Steve's copy hands off, and I'm like, I don't get it. Who Steve and he just so nonchalantly says well, that Steve Jobs copy. I was like what I'm holding Steve Jobs copy of the brand gap beat up folded marked, you know, rabbit ear, you know, notes, you know, that for me? Was that was another thing like, this guy wants to like be my partner. He wants to do this with me. And that would that's that was really kind of like the first time with Marty that I felt way out of my element. Like, this should not be me. I'm not I'm I should not be the one to do this. It made me It made me like nervous. I was like genuinely, like, kind of out of sorts about it. And then we sat down and started going, you know, through the thing, and I'm kind of a control freak. I like to be in control when when I know what I'm doing. And I feel confident about what I'm doing. I can I can drive the train. And I was just like, no way. I was like, dude, you're in charge. Like, you lead the way. I'm going to follow I'm going to do this with you. But like, you know, Master apprentice, you know, Jedi Padawan like I'm totally okay with that. And when we started going through it, I thought I knew things right? You know how like, you can read the books and you can have your successes and you can have your confidence. You You think you know your shit, right? You know, I know all my rudiments on the drums and like, you know, I'm pretty decent drummer. But then you meet like a real German you're like that cat is just a bad fucking dude. When when we kicked it off that morning, I was just like, Whoa, and I regret not like recording the entire thing for posterity. Because it was that bad. It was that like, Oh, alright, so this is what this is what it's really like when the master does it. And I mean, like, the whole thing was like a learning experience. And I was like, I was drunk by like, the end of the first day. Marc Gutman 44:19 Yeah. And, you know, you were wondering, like, hey, how could this be me? But it is you so in working with Marty like what makes him a great partner? Andy Starr 44:30 Marty's no bullshit. That's the best thing about him. Because, you know, even better than his experience and his talent than his intelligence and his intellectual curiosity. He reads more than almost anyone I know. But he is no bullshit. He's no bullshit with me. He's no bullshit with our students. He calls it exactly the way he sees it. And it's funny, we've actually had disagreements about that. When we get feedback in our class, I'm an advocate For a slightly gentler approach, I don't think that there's a need to be super blonde just for the sake of, you know, minimizing bullshit. And we've, we've disagreed on that, but I've come around to really appreciate that, and have have just the most the utmost respect for his candor is the elegance that he provides feedback, and expertise, the the elegance with which he shares his mastery with other people. Um, and that was no different for me. I just had the luxury of having it one on one in a very intimate setting. Right. That's, that's the thing about Marty, I'm just an app, and look at the space we work in, look at how much bullshit there is. I mean, I've worked at agencies, and I've worked with people who literally have this philosophy that we are in the bullshit business. Right. And that's hard. That's hard to swallow, right? For me, at least. And to realize and then experience that the mass the guy who wrote the book, The master himself, is completely, I mean, completely anti bullshit. I was I was just like this, this is just too good to be true. just too good to be true. But it's not. It's just too good. Marc Gutman 46:34 So, no, it is too good. And you know, to flip the coin a little bit, what makes you a great partner. What do you think? Either you can address that from either what you think or what do you think Marty would say? Andy Starr 46:48 I don't see the weird thing is, it's not that I'm uncomfortable asking that. I just don't know. It's not I'm not the type of person who typically answers that. I would say, I think one of the things that makes me a good partner is that I take it, it's because I follow some of the some of the advice that I and guidance that I try to contribute to others, including, I take it seriously. But I'm not too serious about it, I think I have a very healthy idea of what matters and what doesn't. For myself, for Marty, for us, and for our tribe. I'm very patient. And I think I think I'm hyper patient. And I'm, I am, I am extremely passionate about what we're doing. And I know that sounds that may all sound cliched, but one of the things I've learned is that, if that's not if that stuff isn't there, it doesn't really matter what you're doing, right. And the last thing I want to do is be a hypocrite and I couldn't really live with myself, if people thought that I or Marty or we were hypocrites and what we what we preach what we teach. So I think that from what I think for money, I'm also a balance. You know, we talk about personality types and, and roles. And I think that Marty and I complement each other really well, there are things that he can do that I can't, and I don't want to try, there are things that he can do that I can do that I just don't want to do that I don't like to do, or that I'm just not very good at. And there are ways that he thinks that I don't where I can. And I would say the flip is just as true. And I think that we balanced and complete and round each other out really well like that, you know, like looking at it from 80,000 feet. He's a creative and a designer and i'm not i'm a strategist, right? He's He's strategic. I am creative, but we kind of we recognize where we belong, and we recognize our lanes. And he's not as territorial as you. Some people might expect him to be. He is and on all things creative. I defer to him. And he he, I think for him, I'm also going back to the word, you know, going back to the label provocateur, I'm more provocative than he is. I am, I think I'm definitely more brash, I'm a little more raw. And, and maybe he likes that because he doesn't need to be that anymore. He doesn't want to be that anymore. Maybe it's just not enough, you know him. But I think we just we just complement each other really well. We look at the world basically the same way. We never really had an argument about anything. We have disagreements, but we're both patient enough and I am super respectful of his seniority to me. Super respectful, and I value that, and I want him to and I tell him I want him to be the master, not just for others, but for me too. And, and allow me to learn while we're doing this. And I have every time he and I jam on something, I learned something new, which is bananas. And I think all of that makes me a partner that works for him with him. And he's had partners in the past, I'd be curious to hear what he thinks of me as a partner. But that's the thing, I'm not going to let my ego get in the way I want to know. And I want to be a good partner going forward. And even when he takes a step back, and I have to decide how Level C c kind of moves on, I'm going to want other partners, and I want to be a good partner for them. So you know, but I hate talking about myself that way. Like, I hate it. Good question, though. Marc Gutman 50:56 Good, good. Good. And so, you know, as you talk about Level C, like, what, let's talk about that for a second, like, why does brand matter? And why does Level C matter? Like, what are you trying to do with this thing? Andy Starr 51:09 Brand matters, because brand, is brand is the people's connection to business, right? brand is what lets come what lets the company, and the people actually come together. So when a company talks about the people, the people, the people, the customers, it's all just talk, it's the brand that actually makes that real, that makes that consequential, if you will, and so brand should matter to the business world, if they actually care about the consumer, the people, the tribe, the audience, whatever you want to call them, brand should matter to people, because it's through brand that people can influence and change business. Okay. And what we're trying to do with Level C, is we are trying to, we're trying to put in, or, depending on your perspective, restore the role of brand, into the C suite, to restore the role of brand, into a position of influence, on the business side, a position of relevance to the business and the consumer side, to change the conversation. Right, there's a lot of conversation, especially recently, about kind of the role of brand versus marketing. You know, there are a lot of people that believe that, you know, brand is a part of marketing. And we believe that you know, marketing is actually a part of brand. And that's a red herring, I definitely don't want to go down, go down that path here. But we want to influence the way people think about this stuff. And we believe that when they think about it, when they learn, and they think and they process, and then they practice, real change can happen. And you know, here's the thing, we don't we're not trying to change the world. We're not maybe we're one of the few brands out there that is comfortable saying that we're not looking to change the world, we're looking to change a part of business, because we do believe that if you change business enough, then the world can be changed. So that's what we're trying to do. We're, you know, we're creating an army of people who who get this stuff, right. And maybe army isn't the right word. Maybe tribe isn't even right, the right word. We're just recreating it, we're creating the opportunity for people who work in this space, to get it, evangelize it and bring the rest of us forward. Marc Gutman 53:40 Yeah, and I couldn't agree more. I mean, I, you know, I've spoken on this before, but, you know, I believe that this idea of business is just this one big story that we all have invented and buy into. And if, if you hold that to be true, then that means that we have the power to influence it and change it. And I also think there's something that's like, just crazy going on right now. And I'd love to get your take on this. You know, even thinking about like, brand, you know, the history of brand, but like, it's my observation that people are looking to brands now in ways that they never have before, right? They're looking to brands for how do you feel about COVID? For example, how do you feel about racial inequality? How do you feel about politics, you know, in by asking the brand that they want information that it's that well, it says like, well, then if you feel this way, then I feel this way, it's a direct reflection. And I think there's just this crazy thing happening and I don't know if you're seeing that if that's if that feels new to you, but like this idea that like, even the brands I work with, they're like, Well, what do we say like how do we act you know, and now it's a bigger conversation because you know, we can get into like values and your beliefs and you know, hold true to those but I just find this, this kind of forefront of brand and the way people are looking to brand to to comment on the world so that it tells them how they feel about the world. Just this, you know that and I believe in that, like, how the customer felt about the world was it seemed to be that like it was, it's been like that for a long time. It's like the subtext. It's like, it's like, like, what am I? What's my status? Or like, how do I see myself? But now it just seems like way more overt and direct in terms of like, what people are demanding from brands in terms of worldview? Andy Starr 55:19 I mean, it's it's tribalism, right? You can boil all that down into tribalism, or identity, right? Who am I? What do I stand for? What do I want? You know, what matters to me? You know, I think it's a different conversation, I think it reflects a lot of other things, the fracturing of the human of human identity over the last, you know, 20 plus years, and I know, it's, it goes back way longer than that, but, you know, the way the world has changed in the past 20 years, the way we've all become, you know, immediately connected, right, you know, everything can happen. Now. I can talk to someone, you know, we had a student in a thing this morning from Nepal. Like I can talk to him in a second, right. Um, and so I think that that's created a kind of a sense of urgency, maybe that's not the not exactly what I mean. But in terms of, in terms of clarity, about where you stand. And so when people, you know, ask the question, what does the brand stand for? Right? You know, what, what is what is I don't I'm making it up, what is Warby Parker's stance on Black Lives Matter. It's not so much that they care about Warby Parker's stance that is that this is what I'm just speaking for myself what I believe, I don't think it's so much that they care about Warby Parker's stance, I think it's Warby Parker's stance helps frame a little bit more of the context for themselves. How where do they see themselves in relation to Black Lives Matter and Warby Parker and apple and Nike and Starbucks and Virgin and pick a brand? Right? Because really, really, at the end of the day, do you think that people really give a shit about most brands? I don't. I don't. I think that brand loyalty is almost like a misnomer. Like, do I love my iPhone? Yeah. Do I love my Apple watch? Sure. Do. I love my MacBook Pro? Absolutely. And my loyal to the Apple brand? No, I don't care that much. I just don't care about me. I care about my friends, my family I care about my community. I you know, I care about who's at the top of the barclays premier league table. I don't really care about Apple's brand. If I hear that Apple has a position where has done something that I don't agree with? Does it anger me annoying me? piss me off? Yeah, it does. But mainly just because I wish that they could see it the way I see it. But I don't I don't. I don't look at it the way I know a lot of people look at it. You know, when I have a client and they, they they'll ask me, you know, how should we respond to this, I'm always going to tell them the truth and not my truth. But what I strategically believe, is best for the business and the brand. And that's always a tricky kind of gray area. But I just I just don't think people care. I I struggled to believe that people genuinely care. And people may say, I really care. And they may they may believe that they may feel that way. And I and I, I won't disrespect or deny that that happens. I won't. But I think deep down maybe you know, it's it's more ID than ego. I don't think it matters to them as much as it's been made out to. Okay. But again, if you believe if you believe me when I say if you believe in the idea that the brand is what connects people to the business, well, then what the brand stands for their values, their their position on a given issue, political, social, whatever, then it does matter. For better or for worse. I just don't think that the brand can control it as much as they think they can. Right? Because they certainly can't control their audience. They can influence their audience. They can try to anticipate what the majority of their audience believes or feels about a specific issue. But, you know, when it comes to control, and it doesn't exist, it just doesn't influence exist, but even that has limit so I roll my eyes a lot and when when I when I see the question, you know where the debate happening? It's I'm just like, who really cares? That's different from caring about the issue. I definitely care about the issues, I feel very strongly about the same issues. I just don't care about what the brand thinks, or what the brand says they stand for. I just don't. Marc Gutman 1:00:17 Hmm. So to challenge you on that, if Apple and by the way, this is theory, everybody, if Apple actually denounced black lives matter if they had a more not inclusive policy towards LGBTQ and like, you know, did not recognize those folks that would have no bearing in your purchase of their product. Andy Starr 1:00:45 It probably would. And not probably would, it would. But that's not again, it's not so much because of what Apple stands for. It's for what I stand for. Correct? Yeah, that's, that's why and again, I, I recognize that what I just said, may may initially resonate with some people like why wait, he doesn't care? No. I care very, very much. I have extremely strong feelings that I believe are in the majority. By the way, I think that I stand with most people on most issues I do. And because they matter so much, to me, that's what influences my decision. That's what influences my behavior in one way or another. If he here's another example. Um, I remember, I think it was a couple years ago, the I think it was the CEO of barilla. Pasta, I was kind of outed for making, you know, homophobic remarks, right? Mm hmm. I'm like a pasta. I basically eat spaghetti every day of my life. and up to that point, Burleigh, was the brand that I like to make. I haven't had real essence. And I never will. Not because because of what he said, but that's not what influenced my decision is because of how I feel. That's how strongly I feel about it. Right. And, and there's a difference. I think it's subtle, it's nuanced. It's complicated. It's not simple. But if someone if Apple so if Apple basically denounced Black Lives Matter, and people boycott Apple, it's more because of how those people feel for themselves about the issue. That's what I'm saying. Marc Gutman 1:02:33 I got it. Got it. Well, Andy, I could talk to you forever. This has gone super fast. And as we near the end of our time together, I'd love for you to think back to that time when you first walked into that music room and sat down at those drums and maybe hit the drum once or twice and had that charge of electricity. And if that Andy ran into you today, what do you think he'd say? Andy Starr 1:03:04 What do you think he would say about me now? Yeah, I have no idea. Wow, I've never been asked that before. I've always been asked the opposite. What would I say to Andy? That Andy, then I, I like to think that he would say, I'm sorry, I have no I'm like, stunned by that, that. That question is going to haunt me for a while. And I don't I don't even want to say I have to get back to you on that. Although I know I'm going to I have no idea dude. What? What is Wow, what an amazing question. Andy Starr 1:04:00 You can see my face and you can i'm, i'm i'm just like I can I can I ask you? Why did you ask me that question? Marc Gutman 1:04:17 Part of it is I want to know if your younger self would have been impressed or would have been interested or intrigued or curious or a myriad of other thoughts about how your life turned out and where you're at today and where you're going. Huh? And if that young Andy who is probably thinking, Oh my gosh, I'm about to become a life long professional musician. I would have thought like, Hey, you know, this is just as good playing music in a different way. Andy Starr 1:04:48 I think this is just more of me now. Then. What I would have been back then. But I I like to think or maybe I just hope that he would have have asked me Is it a good gig or is it a good deal? And without hesitation I I'd say it's the best gig. That is the best gig. This is a people business dude. Like it's more about people than it is about business. the business side of Level C like it's like the least fun thing that I do. The most fun thing that I do is meeting people like you meeting you know, meeting people like Mata Marina do meeting people like Matt Davies, Chris lateral Layla Casanova. I'm, you know, 300 more than 300 people, awesome human beings who work in the human side of business, from like, 4050 countries so far. That's, that's like the best gig in the world, the best gig. Marc Gutman 1:06:00 And that is Andy Starr of Level C. Well, what did you think? Drinking from the firehose yet? I could have talked with Andy for hours, but I think we've covered quite a bit of ground and our time today. A big heartfelt thank you to Andy Starr, and the team at Level C. We will link to all things any star in Level C in the show notes. If you're interested in sharpening your brand chops, I highly recommend you check out their masterclasses. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. A lot big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can't deny.

BGBS 053: Shawn Parr | Bulldog Drummond | How Can We Make a Difference?Shawn Parr is the Guvner and CEO of Bulldog Drummond, a design and innovation company with the purpose of helping leaders unlock the best in their organization, solve a series of challenges, and define opportunities through the lens of brand. Shawn brings 20+ years of business-building experience to the table and ensures there's an “Uncommon Sense” methodology at the center of everything the business does to assist executive teams at companies including Adidas, Hilton, Taco Bell, Samsung, and H&R Block, among many others. Over time, Shawn has developed a commitment to finding sustainable ways to make a measurable difference in the world through helping companies realize their full potential to initiate change. He is the co-founder of YouSchool and Y-Malawi?, and sits on the board of The Honest Kitchen, along with his other engagements in impact. As an optimist, Shawn reminds us that the roaring 20s bloomed with creativity and innovation after a dark time, and believes that the years moving forward will mirror our past. Things may never be “normal” again, but the new normal will be beautiful, nonetheless. That being said, how can we all contribute to the new way forward through our own curiosity and intent? In this episode, you'll learn…The name Bulldog Drummond was inspired by a fictional detective from one of Shawn's childhood books Shawn didn't always have a burning passion for art in school. He discovered design as a passion through trying on many hats until he found a path that felt right In the search for where he could add value, Shawn considered being an officer in the English army or an accountant. The reason for Shawn's move from London to California was love! He met his wife of 30 years in London and followed her to the States. Moving to California back in '91 opened Shawn's eyes to a world of energy and possibility that he had not previously experienced in the UK. A driving force for Shawn's work ethic is that nobody is entitled to anything and respect is earned through discipline. Shawn believes that a brand has inherently human characteristics that when defined and unlocked, will transform teams and customers to become more invested and engage in a relationship with it One of Shawn's most meaningful projects was developing a traveling exhibit representing the lives of people who contracted HIV/AIDS to raise money after a life-changing trip to Africa in 2006 Shawn is most looking forward to is participating in the connectivity, and the joy, the humor, the music, the art, and culture that is to come (a second roaring 20s if you will) With some curiosity in intent, design can be the tool that furthers our purpose. ResourcesShawn ParrLinkedIn: Shawn Parr Instagram: @the_guvner Twitter: @GuvnerBD Bulldog DrummondWebsite: www.bulldogdrummond.com Facebook: @BulldogDrummond Twitter: @BULLDOGDRUMMOND LinkedIn: Bulldog Drummond Quotes[29:28] Any service business is like having a bucket with a hole in it and you're constantly filling it up because you're not selling a product per se, that people are buying. But I would say that anxiety was what certainly fueled, drove my energy to keep moving the business forward. [33:20] I think one simple way that I like to think about brand is a brand is like a person, meaning we're searching for a reason why we exist, we have a purpose in the world, we go out and live into that purpose, we have a personality that is distinct, we have a set of values that guide how we think about things and how we operate. And then we have relationships with people that, you know, we're either in positive, negative, or non-relationship with. And I brands are very similar. They have a strategic or dimensional core to them. They inherently have a human characteristic. [37:08] I and we as a company, we are forced to be relevant and curious and students of what is now. We are also challenged with our clients to solve big business challenges. And so in doing that, you're collaborating with team members, inside of organizations and your own, so that you're always learning, you're always moving forward. [42:08] Our position as a company is, we get up every day to try to help leaders become a force for good inside of their organizations. So we believe like many people today, that businesses, companies, and leaders in companies are the biggest change agents in society. We have the ability to move culture. We have the ability to move systems and not necessarily have to rely on government…What's in our heart is actually moving the world forward through the work that we do, and making the world a better place through the work we do. Podcast TranscriptShawn Parr 0:02 I think the learning that I got was working collaboratively with creative people, with designers, with writers, with art directors and photographers, illustrators. And again, bringing a different perspective but really respecting what they did. I got a lot of joy from that. What I realized was, not only will my people but that's where I, their creativity fueled mine, if that makes sense. So I bought a business perspective to their creativity. And that felt really good. Marc Gutman 0:43 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Backstory, we are talking with Shawn Parr of the design and innovation consultancy Bulldog Drummond. And while I have your ear, if you're listening, I'm assuming you like our show. And if that's the case, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Better yet, please recommend this show to at least one friend you think well like it. That's what really good friends do. And if this is your first time listening, please consider subscribing. It's your subscriptions that make the show possible. All right back to our show. As the governor, you like that kind of weird British accent that I just failed miserably at and CEO of Bulldog Drummond Shawn is responsible for strategically directing each of Bulldog's key engagements, ensuring there's an Uncommon Sense methodology at the center of everything the company does. This approach maintains that the most complex challenges can be solved and the biggest opportunities can be realized. By using a powerful combination of simplicity, common sense and determination. He brings 20 plus years of innovation design, brand and business building experience to companies from fortune 500. To purpose-driven startups. Shawn helps leadership teams transform large multinational companies in passionate entrepreneurs launch new companies, products and brands. He's worked with executive teams at companies including Adidas bolthouse Farms, Campbell's CMT, Dr. Yeoh, Hilton, Heineken, h&r block, IDEO, and TV, MTV, Mattel, nyck, perch, Starbucks, Samsung, Tata Harper, Taco Bell, Wd 40, Westfield and World Vision among many others. Those of you listening Do you recognize any of those brands? Wow. He writes for Fast Company psfk as a sought after speaker, Shawn lives in San Diego with his wife and three children is a DOM patrol surfer, wannabe photographer, an avid cultural for air. And this is his story. I am here with Shawn Parr, who is the governor and CEO of Bulldog Drummond Shawn, thank you for joining us. And Shawn if you wouldn't mind just by starting off by letting us know what is Bulldog Dummond and what does the governor do. Shawn Parr 4:00 Mark, nice to be here. Thank you for the opportunity to chat. Bulldog Drummond is design and innovation company. We're based in San Diego. And we get up every day to help leaders unlock the best in their organization, solve a series of challenges unlocking opportunities through the lens of brand. And the governor is a title that I sort of inherited a few years ago. It's an English title for a leader and it stuck. So I'm the CEO and Chief Strategy Officer of the company and on the journey for about 23 years here, just a mere 23 years. Marc Gutman 4:49 And I like that and when you talk about being a design and innovation company, if you would if you could just clarify that because I think a lot of people associate the word design with pretty pictures imagery, logos. And I have a hunch, and we don't know each other that well, but I have a hunch that you mean something a little bit different when you say, design innovation company. What is that? Shawn Parr 5:12 Yeah. So for us, design is a way of looking at the world to solve challenges and problems to create value. So thinking through the lens of designing solutions, and sometimes it can be a strategy. Sometimes it can be a service, sometimes it can be a visual manifestation can be a logo, it can be an identity, it can be a look and feel. Yeah, it's an orientation towards solving challenges. Marc Gutman 5:41 Thanks. In preparation for this interview, I was very curious as to what was Bulldog Drummond. And when I googled it, I get a it's a fictional character created by hc McNeil, which I've never heard of, and I'm an English person, English literature person and love to read and think of myself a bit is, you know, a well-read individual, but I've never heard of this book. And so is this the inspiration for the name of your of your firm? Shawn Parr 6:11 Yeah. So I got here from London in 1991. And launch photo drowning in 97. And I wanted to build a brand. I wanted to create a platform that gave us permission to do certain things. And there were two names that I sort of come to the US with, one was bought on drum and the other was mad dogs and Englishmen, mad dogs and Englishmen was taken and bought out. Drummond was a fictional detective, but I was given the book as a kid. And they were terrible books. There's a reason you didn't read them. There's a reason nobody studies them because they're terrible. But he was like, I don't know, an ugly James Bond. And he solved problems. So really, the, the inspiration was that he was a detective, he solved problems. And that was sort of the center of who bought our drum and was, you know, in 97, and is Today we're in the business of being given a challenge, we solve a problem, we come to the table with a level of energy, personality and sense of ourselves. And back in 97, it was a license to behave badly. And today, it is truly a brand that lives in a meaningful, deep way. Marc Gutman 7:40 And so, you touched on this a little bit. But you mentioned I think you got the books when you were, you know, younger, a young boy, and you were first exposed to them. So when did you grow up in the UK? it? Yeah. And so as a young boy in the UK, you know, what was Shawn like, were you into these things like brand and discovering, you know, identity and designing the way forward? Was that who you were as a, as a young boy? Shawn Parr 8:10 No, I mean, I yes, in that I was fascinated by music, I was fascinated by fashion and personal identity I was trying to figure out was I was I'm not was a modern, romantic, you know, I didn't see myself as a punk rocker. I loved the aesthetic of the mob movement. I love that type of music. I loved the liberation of you new, new romantic music. So I was fascinated by design and culture. As a teenager. My father was a very creative individual. He was a, he owned a produce store he was on. He owned a power beyond an antique store. He owned an import business. And he was extremely creative with Merchandising, and customer service in a very unique way. So I that's where I suppose my exposure to design and aesthetic came from interior design, retail design, but not in a sort of a formal way. Marc Gutman 9:16 Yeah. And so were you exposed to any of that kind of design in school? Or was it purely through your father and, you know, exposure to his entrepreneurial businesses? Were you— did you take on any sort of art or creative interest while you were at school? Shawn Parr 9:33 You know, art was a subject, but it wasn't a total fascination. And so, for me, you know, the thing that I was fascinated by was, was literature writing. You didn't bite, the literary debating society was something I was stoked on. So no, not in a formal way. You know, I think when you look back at the influences you have, I definitely look back on the way you know, he went presented his store the music, he put on the way that he was involved with, you know, charities. So it was just it was sort of, I don't know, design school of life if you like. Marc Gutman 10:12 Yeah. And so why was that path? Not for you Why? Or maybe you did. But I'm assuming you didn't get into the family business. You didn't you didn't go that path. Why not? Shawn Parr 10:27 Well, I, you know, I used to get up at four o'clock in the mornings as a teenager on the weekends and go to the Covent Garden with him to buy vegetables, and load the van, unload the van and set the store up. As I got a little bit older, I worked around the power bit in the background, I went to antique markets. And, you know, again, I learned a lot from him. But, you know, for a couple of different reasons, didn't get involved in the family business and wrecked his marriage, and didn't make him a particularly happy man. You know, it was hard work in a different way than we did a lot of hard work, if that makes sense. Marc Gutman 11:07 No, for sure. And so I imagine that you had probably set that worldview or that opinion of where you wanted to be, which was not in that business, by the time that you were in high school. And, and so what did you think you wanted to do with your life? At that point? What were you thinking, the future was gonna hold for Shawn, you know, when you're getting ready to, to prepare to go out in the rest of the world, Shawn Parr 11:30 I, I actually thought that I wanted to be an officer in the English army. And I was solely rejected with that one, because my, my grades were not, were not strong enough and in the sciences, and so I there was a period of time where I actually didn't know what I wanted to do. And, you know, a one point I thought I wanted to be an accountant. So I was in that little chapter of sort of searching for perhaps, where I could add value, or where I could be inspired or whatever. And it took a little while to figure that out. Marc Gutman 12:07 Yeah. And so what was that? Like? I mean, you know, sounds like, you might have been heartbroken to be rejected by the English army and realize that, that that wouldn't be for you. So what was that process? Like of figuring out, you know, what was your Muse? or What was your calling? Shawn Parr 12:24 As I look back, it was very frustrating not to know exactly what you wanted to do. It was it just, it made you pick up things and turn them over and try them. And, you know, I think a little rejection is is good, it shapes your character and moves you in a different direction. If I go back then and imagine, like what I'm doing now, what I've had the privilege of doing for the last year, 20 plus years, I could never have imagined, that's what I want. That's what I wouldn't be doing. So I think there's, you know, we talked about how you design a path, and you just follow it, some people are lucky to do that. Some people like they just have that burning passion. I think my path has been trying early on trying a lot of things. And then, you know, by luck and by relationship, and by, you know, sheer well at times, getting on a path that I absolutely love. Marc Gutman 13:21 Yeah. And so, how old were you when you were in this stage of experimentation? And what were some of the things that you tried that you realized weren't for you? Shawn Parr 13:32 So I was in my early 20s, I thought I wanted to be an accountant. I actually worked in a, it was probably the precursor to David Brent's office, I worked for tower crane, and, you know, construction comp hire business. And I worked with an incredible guy who was just very organized, and he ran all of the tower cranes that were rented out through London, but he was he was in finance, and, you know, everybody that was in finance in this organization where they have responsibility, they, you know, they had influence, they had an interesting what looked like an interesting existence. So I thought, okay, it's gonna be an accountant, and I can go down that path. And, you know, started down that path and wasn't wasn't for me. Marc Gutman 14:25 And so when you realize it wasn't for you, then what you do? Shawn Parr 14:29 So there was a fantastic company that was in the real estate and finance space. And it was a brand its do that all it had, it had a level of consistency and uniformity and service. I had a sales position and I applied for it, got the job and very, very quickly, you know, moved into a direct sales director position sales and marketing director position, you know, running a team, it was a pretty rapid path to responsibility. And it was that was the sort of the beginning of connecting the dots back to the design. I didn't at the time, I didn't think of it as brand. I didn't call it brand, I didn't call it strategy. I didn't call it design, or customer experience, it was just being part of something that was cohesive and different and had energy and was useful, and it was successful, and it was making a difference in people's lives. So that was that led me to a situation where I was responsible for our ad agency, and was the client and had a great relationship with them. And so they had no maybe six or seven months into our relationships that we want to grow our business. You know, we'd love to offer you an opportunity to come join us. So I moved from technically being a client, a young client into running an ad agency with the responsibility of growing it. And that sort of was the beginning of that sort of formal transition into appetizing design, innovation consulting. Marc Gutman 16:28 Yeah. And so it sounds like to this point, other than learning on the job with your father and learning on the job at the real estate company haven't had any real formal education around brand advertising any of these things you're learning, you know, you're learning on the job. So you go and you take this larger role at an advertising agency. Man, what was that? Like? I mean, were you well suited for that? Did you just struggle at first, like, what was what was that experience like? Shawn Parr 16:55 So I think I bought a lot of perspective where I had been the client. So almost having a client inside of this agency, this these team of people that had been pure agency, people that was a design studio, production studio and media buying team. So I had a different perspective. And I really respected their different perspective and approach. So I think we learn together. And I think that was a good example of, you know, different areas of expertise or experience coming together can actually be better. And, yeah, it was the thing that, you know, I was schooled in and prior projects, works, responsibilities with what juggling many expectations, many projects, many deadlines, many complexities. So I think that piece was easy, if you like or wasn't complicated. I think the learning that I got was working collaboratively with creative people, with designers, with writers without directors and photographers, illustrators. And again, bringing sort of a different perspective, but really respecting what you did. And I got a lot of joy from that. I what I realized was, not only were my people, but that's where I I like their creativity fueled mine, if that makes sense. So I bought a business perspective to their creativity. And there was just that was that felt really good. Marc Gutman 18:36 Yeah. And is this where kind of that light bulb that proverbial light bulb goes off? where you're like, oh, maybe I found it, maybe, you know, maybe I found the thing that I'm supposed to be settling into. Was this. Was this the time? Shawn Parr 18:50 Yeah, I think that to some degree, yes. The ability to build and create value, but I think that didn't really come until I got to California. There was still a the UK or London, you know, while it was dynamic, it still had sort of this, rather than Yes, you can it had this Well, maybe you can. And, you know, on Sorry, no, I don't think you should do that. Maybe don't maybe no, I'm sorry. No, no, that's not possible. Whereas I got to California and it was like, wow, everybody's got this energy about them. This. Just this optimism, this, there's nothing you can't do. It's full of possibilities. So it was coming here. That just gave me that sense of Oh my gosh. And you know, I think with the the rise of the design movement, if you like the rise of entrepreneurs in here, with the advent of you know, the web, it just was I was like, became I realized I was like a kid in a candy store. Marc Gutman 20:02 So what brought you to California? So you're, you know, you're in the UK and coming here is, it's not like it's impossible or anything, but it is different. And it is a big move. And you know, what took you from London to California. Shawn Parr 20:16 So I met a California girl who was at school in London. Just about to graduate, Matt fell in love, basically told her wherever she went, I would go, and it just so happens that she was from San Diego. And that's not a bad place to live. But so yeah, love fell madly in love. You know, I've been married to her for 30 years. Next year, we've got three kids. So I didn't come here for business. I didn't come here for, you know, what America offers. It's like, love. Marc Gutman 20:56 That's a good reason. Probably the best of all, and congratulations on 30 years and three kids. That's a great accomplishment. Yeah. So that's amazing. And so, you know, you come here and, you know, I used to live in Los Angeles and kind of know that whole California area really well. And I still don't even think of San Diego is like an advertising kind of hotspot. You know, I know there's a big economy there. I know. There's a lot of people but no, I think if you're coming to the US for advertising, you're looking at you know, New York, Miami, Los Angeles, all these bigger metro areas. And so what was it like when you got to San Diego where you know, you have this experience and to just show up with your portfolio in your briefcase ready to tackle the advertising world? And in San Diego, what was that all about? Shawn Parr 21:44 Yeah, no, it was very humbling. Back in 91. It was, it was a city that was revolved around hospitality and military. And there were, you know, there were other businesses here. But once you sort of looked around, it was, you're right, it was sort of the hotbed of creativity. Back then there was some, there are a couple of really great ad agencies here. There are a couple of great really design studios here. And I think what's happened is, as San Diego as a city has grown up, over the last 20 plus years, the level of entrepreneurial energy and creativity that manifests itself in food, hospitality, technology, healthcare, biotechnology, what the hotbed of creativity has fueled a community of amazing design-centric companies here. And, you know, I was fortunate to be here when it was, you know, really in that sort of, gestation period, and I've just been incredibly privileged to, to live here and, you know, do business here, but at the same time, you know, our, our business has been very much across the US and, you know, outside of the US over the last, you know, 20 plus years. So we chose to look outside of San Diego, we needed to look outside of San Diego for business. And that was actually a really good challenge on reflection. Marc Gutman 23:21 This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo, or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose-driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about. Reach out @ www.wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. When you came to San Diego, did you start Bulldog Drummond like day one, were you looking for a job within the advertising community? Or what were your job prospects like when you when you came here full of love and hope? Shawn Parr 24:37 So I actually got a visa on a job with a little design studio. And the owner of that business was thrilled that you know, I had business development and to build a business and you know, I was English. Two days in I realized it was not gonna work and started to think About You know, okay, do I start something on my own, that was incredibly difficult back then. And I was very fortunate my, my wife's best friend from elementary school, her mother owned a little design, business, design and PR business with a with a friend. And they had good reputation, they had a little portfolio and a little office, and I got introduced to them, I said, Hey, listen, give me a, maybe give me a desk, a chair and a phone and give me a little bit of time. And let me see if I can develop some business. And then maybe we can have a conversation. And within about six months, I bought in some business, and you know, at the end of the year, we figured out, hey, this is going to be a good thing. And so that was the that was the incredible sort of jumping off point where I was able to, you know, really honor them, and at the same time, be able to build sort of a business infrastructure. So that was in 90, late 92, I spent about three or four years building up a team and a portfolio and then launch for Drummond formally in 97. So, you know, the power of or the benefit of being supported by or encouraged by a good person. I was very fortunate that that that was the case. Marc Gutman 26:25 Yeah, who was that person? What was their name? Shawn Parr 26:27 Name was Anne, or is Anne Book. And she's a an incredibly wise, Irish American New Yorker wrote eight books. And my wife actually grew up with that family, and they're incredible people. And, you know, eternally grateful to Ann. And yeah, no, I was I was, I was very fortunate that she was fortunate. And I was fortunate. Marc Gutman 26:52 Yeah. And so you, you go off, and you hang your shingle, and you launch this firm Bulldog Drummond and what did you hope to do with it? Right? Why did you start your own firm? And what were you looking to do? Shawn Parr 27:04 You know, I think, first and foremost, provide a life for my wife and family, provide a great life, my wife and family was Goal number one is going number one today, that hadn't changed. But I think to work with interesting people, and it was to, at the time, it was to create great advertising, it was to design great, you know, visual solutions for people today, it's a different thing. Marc Gutman 27:33 Yeah. And so when you when you went into business, did you have a strong sense of like, who you were going to serve? Did you know what market you were going to be looking at? Or was it more of a like, Hey, we're just out here, and we're, we're hungry, and we're taking, we're taking business from anybody? Shawn Parr 27:48 To start with, it was certainly that to get going, and it was literally getting going. And then it became, let's work in sport, let's work in fashion, let's work in entertainment, let's work in, you know, health care, to start with to build a creative reputation. And, you know, early on, it was very much about the dynamic nature of the work that you created, built your reputation. So it was early on, it was how you do that. And what type of clients do do we have, and we were very fortunate we won. Once from green to early business, Virgin was a key client of ours for about 10 years. And, you know, it was really sort of a magnet, both for talent, and it was a tool to actually demonstrate our creativity, as we will call it. Marc Gutman 28:39 And that must have been extremely exciting. And what a What a great brand to work with. And as you started, I mean, was it a success from day one? Or were you? Were you kind of holding it all together? Were you worried, you know, at any given time that hey, this thing might not work and you just shared with me, the number one driver for that business was to take care of your family. So those are some big stakes. Those are real stakes. You know, this isn't like, no ego and stuff like that, you know, whatever. But like, your family is at stake here. And so were you ever concerned like hey, like, this thing might not work? Or like our I hope it works or like we're working on that. Shawn Parr 29:13 I think there's always that sort of a this driving question of, you know, is are you gonna be in business? Are you gonna be successful? I think the type of any service business is like having a bucket with a hole in and you're constantly filling it up, because you're not selling a product per se that people are buying. But I would say that that anxiety, if you like was what certainly fuel drove my energy to keep moving the business forward. And, you know, I've sort of always operated from the premise of, you're not entitled people don't give you anything. You have to earn respect. You have to earn your way It's, you know, it's tough. So it's been a, it's been a great journey. But along the way, all along the way that fuel of, Hey, I have a payroll to make I have, I'm beyond my family, I have a business family that I'm responsible for. So that that certainly motivates you. Marc Gutman 30:18 For sure, absolutely. And you know, I'm gonna make an assumption, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but like, I get the sense that you, you really love what you do. And you really love this field of design and brand. And so, you know, assuming that to be true, and you know, what do you love about it? Like, we're like, whitey, you've been in it for a long time, you've been, you know, you've been in it by choice, like, what do you love? What do you love about it? Shawn Parr 30:43 So I think, coming from a country where you knew there was always this, maybe, I'm sorry, go back to what I was saying earlier, to come to a country and be in a in a profession where anything's possible. And you can play a role in working with entrepreneurs, or you can work with the leaders of multibillion dollar national international companies. And you can help add value move things forward through the power of design, and communication, and collaboration. And it really does, it never gets old. Because if you're fascinated by the challenge, and you're fascinated by the people you work with, they are always different. There's similarities, but the marketplace is different the customers a different stage of business is different. The stage and technology is different. The personalities, different cultural challenges, insider a company, so it's always different. And I have a terrible add, and you know, sort of have this serial entrepreneurial, want to solve want to create one effects. And so it feeds that sort of incessant need to jump into things and create. And then there's the fascination with beauty, expressed in designing solutions, and, you know, improving lives and making helping in small ways to make the world a better place. So I think there's no better place for somebody that's got a little add, it's got that energy for creative things, it's a great place to be. Marc Gutman 32:30 Yeah, I always described a little bit as like this, like ability to always have new love, you know, you can always fall fall in love again, and again, with a different, you know, leadership team brand idea, like you get to dislike, you know, and you just get to kind of read redo that over and over again. And I really resonate with, with what you're saying. And so, when you talk about brand, like, how do you define brand? Like what's your what's your definition of brand? Shawn Parr 32:57 So I think it is, it's multi dimensional. And you do in its most simplest form, it used to mean it was a promise, it is the the manifestation of a broad series of things that sort of end up in a consumers mind in terms of the way they think about a product or company or service. But I think one simple way that I like to think about brand is a brand is like a person. And you know, a person is like a brand meaning they have there's a we're searching for a reason why we exist, we have a purpose in the world, we go out and live into that purpose, we have a personality that is distinct, we have a set of values that guide how we think about things and how we operate. And then we have relationships with people that, you know, we're we're either in positive, negative or non relationship with. And I brands are very similar. They have a, they have a strategic or dimensional core to them. They're inherently they have a human characteristic. This is at least one way of thinking about it. From my perspective, it's like why does it exist? What does it have to do in the world? You know, what value is it adding? How does it show up? How do people experience it? How does it live in their lives? So I think brand is an incredible asset that when understood, and when defined and unlocked. Actually, you see it, we see it transform companies and teams, they believe in that they get behind it, they work every day, because they get paid, they really are invested and engaged in a relationship with it. And the same is true with consumers Marc Gutman 34:42 that couldn't agree more and everyone loves transformation and engagement. But what's hard about it like What don't we know about this thing brand like like if you know i mean? I'm sure we'd all be all be doing it every business would be doing it well if they could. So So what's hard about it, Shawn Parr 34:59 You know, I think inside of organizations, you have different levels of awareness and understanding of all the disciplines, whether it's finance, whether it's law, whether it's regulation, for manufacturing, or whether it's for marketing or whether it's a brand. And depending on the people that are stewarding an organization, the appreciation for what a, an incredibly well articulated, framed out executed brand looks like can be challenging. So I think part of our job is always to try to recognize the level of awareness and understanding and be a good guide to help the teams understand what it can do for their, their organization and their constituents. You know, I think it's hard when it's viewed superficially, but I think the level of understanding has, you know, in the last two or three years, people are very much aware of what it can do for business. Marc Gutman 35:58 Yeah, we're kind of in the the golden age or golden era, if you will, it's like people are finally hearing and understanding what what it is and what it isn't. And so, you know, it's we're talking, I was thinking about how you started this interview and talking about, you know, Bulldog Drummond's been around for 23 years, you've been doing this for a long time. And it got me to thinking about just like relevancy and staying relevant. And like, how does, like, if that's something that always just like is on the top of my mind is like, how do you continue to stay relevant? How do you continue to reinvent yourself? And so how does Bulldog Drummond do it? How do you, you know, stay relevant and kind of keep keep on the pulse of what's going on? Shawn Parr 36:39 You calling me old? Marc Gutman 36:41 Not at all! Shawn Parr 36:44 No, you know, it's, it's a fantastic question. Because I think back to brand, you have to be relevant. And I think the world that we live in today, it's not a brand has to be relevant, but you have to be current, you have to be engaged in culture, you have to be engaged in the world around you. And I think back to your question about why I still love what I do. I am we as a company, we are forced to be relevant and curious. And students of what is now we are also challenged with our clients to solve big business challenges. And so in doing that, you learn and doing that you're collaborating with team members, inside of organizations and your own, so that you're always learning, you're always moving forward. So I think that that plus being self aware, and not not getting, you know, so caught up in Hey, wait, good, but versus we've always got something to learn. And I think that sort of humility actually makes us like, watch where we are in the Zeitgeist, it makes us look up where we are in the flow of business. Marc Gutman 37:59 Yeah. And so as you you think back across that body of work that you alluded to, I won't make it pick an absolute favorite, but what's a piece of work that you're really, really proud of that? You know, you look back, and you're like, you know, kind of like the full expression of Shawn Parr and his team. Shawn Parr 38:16 I think this too, for me. One is, I was fortunate to go to Africa in 2006. And the trip was to understand the impact of hunger and the impact of HIV. And we came back and we were we had a project that was literally how do you represent the impact of HIV on a continent and various constituents on that continent. And we were able to develop the concept for a traveling exhibit that was inspired by a trip to the apartheid museum. And it was highly experiential way you would walk through the lives of listening to the lives of different people who contracted on a digital contract HIV AIDS, and that that raised awareness, understanding and a significant amount of money. So that was a project I think, made me think about the type of work we do and a meaningful way that trip made me think about a role that we play because we transition from being an ad agency into, you know, a design and innovation consulting business, as a result of sort of that trip now work with Virgin, which was a really interesting mash up of sort of forces that may made me think about where we were going. And then obviously, the second piece of work is we helped to start a we founded a business called the US School, which is a social and emotional learning platform that is very much about helping high school kids, college kids, people in transition, figure out where they go. And so it's a construct of self awareness with self confidence, leading to self direction in very simple terms, but it's a curriculum based platform. So putting all the learning that we'd have, from a business perspective, from a family life perspective into a product. So yeah, that's the two that come to mind. Marc Gutman 40:21 Yeah, those are amazing. But flipping the script a little bit. Is there one that broke your heart? Like, is there one that you can remember where it just didn't pan out the way you wanted it to? Or just left either kind of sad and bummed out? Shawn Parr 40:36 You know, I, personally, I've been so fortunate across all the years. And I wouldn't say there was any one that left me sad that way. But there was a multi billion dollar technology company that my creative director and I had the privilege of traveling to Prague, and, you know, the UK and another part of the US, and they were foreign owned, and these people were just rude. I mean, we we busted our backsides. For these people. It was a big project. And yeah, that was just, I think that was the one time and 23 years where I experienced rudeness. So yeah, that was that was sad for them, not for us, because we laugh about it. At this point. If I told you the story, you pee your pants, we don't have enough time. But yeah, these these people, which is? Oh, yeah, Marc Gutman 41:33 that's pretty good track record. If in 23 years, that's, that's, that's what you have. So that's really, really awesome. So what is Bulldog Drummond look like today? Like, what's the makeup of the business? What kind of clients are you working with? Shawn Parr 41:45 So we went through a, I know, read, positioning, re examining the role we play in the war about 18 months ago, and especially with climate, and the social issues that are affecting the world. We said, you know, how can we make a difference. And our sort of position as a company is, we get up every day to try to help leaders become a force for good inside of their organizations. So we believe like many people today that businesses, companies, leaders, and companies are the biggest change agents in society, we have, you know, the ability to move culture, we have the ability to remove systems, and not necessarily have to rely on government. Another conversation. But so bought og, we work with the C suite, executives across a range of big a large range of, you know, significant companies. So what we look like today, as a company that we our expertise is in brand, and Brandon to innovation and people and culture, into customer experience into social impact and sustainability. They're the practice areas that we operate in. And we are part of a three group studio today that has offices in in Irvine and Chicago, and we joined forces about three years ago. And so as a consulting studio, we now have, you know, partners in digital transformation, digital innovation, digital products and commerce. And so we have the ability to sort of affect the entire customer experience, or the connected customer experience, if needed. But what's in our heart is actually moving the world forward through the work that we do, making the world a better place through the work we did. Marc Gutman 43:54 And so what's your biggest challenge right now with that? Shawn Parr 43:57 I think that the move and the speed at which digital transformation is affecting some businesses, you know, I don't see that as a challenge. I see that as a, as the natural next step for where business is going. I think helping, the challenge that we have is helping companies be aware of what's around the corner while they're while they're dealing with the current reality of, you know, pandemic, the current reality of, you know, remote working and such. Marc Gutman 44:32 Yeah, as the pandemic had a big impact on your business. Shawn Parr 44:36 I was very fortunate, I would say we have a sort of a diverse client portfolio. We have, you know, organizations that are in technology and food and beverage and health care. We had clients that were very active in hospitality. So we I think like the rest of the world. We Got a shock to the system and in March and early April, and since has been extremely, you know, busy and engaged across a wide range of categories. Marc Gutman 45:12 So what are you most excited about right now or looking forward to, maybe a better question? Shawn Parr 45:18 I think when a dear friend of mine, who is a comedian, he posted some tape today. And it was a picture of this woman in the 20s. And she was in her 20s get up at Black and White photograph. And he said, Remember, when this was over, the roaring 20s happened, and joy is just around the corner. And so I think what I'm excited by is the much like, you know, back in the early 90s, and I think about San Diego, then and today, the unleashed creativity, that is an the natural joy that is gonna come out of humans, when we can't have this restriction that is around us today. We I don't think we're ever going to go back to the way it was, but there will be a new normal, and the new normal has happened like throughout history. So what happens as a result, the the connectivity, and the the joy, the humor, the music, the art culture that is going to come in the next 234 years is going to be fantastic to participate in and experience. Marc Gutman 46:30 So Shawn, is he is he think about yourself back in London, his young eight year old boy helping your dad open up those farmers markets and getting up early at 4am? Or maybe you're a little older than that. Like if he you know, if he saw you today, what do you think he'd say? Shawn Parr 46:47 He would say, life is short. You know, make sure you're enjoying either the hearing now or not always thinking about tomorrow? I think he'd say, You did all right. And yeah, no, I think he's, he, he was he always had these sort of anecdotes. You can never put a young head on old shoulders or an old head on your shoulders. But you know, I think he would, he would say, you know, just make sure you enjoy every day. Let's say be brilliant. Marc Gutman 47:29 And that is Shawn Parr of Bulldog Drummond. Hope you heard. I mean, really heard Shawn's call that business, That design is the platform for change, that we can design our way over, around and through some of our biggest social and cultural issues. Think about that for a moment. There is a way forward. It's not easy. It's not obvious, but with some curiosity in intent. Design is the tool that furthers our purpose. A big thank you to Shawn part of Bulldog Drummond. After interview, Shawn shared his story of how he was looking at an old picture of a young woman from the 20s dressed in her flapper outfit. And then it reminded him that those roaring times came after a really dark and tough time. And that on the other side of our time, will be our version of the 20s where creativity and innovation will bloom. Soon we'll turn the corner and we'll all be wearing our roaring 20s flapper outfits. We will link to all things Shawn and Bulldog Drummond in the show notes. And if you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast@wildstory.com. Our best guests like Shawn come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. I like big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can't deny.

BGBS 052: Tanner Krause | Kum & Go | We Must Be the Force of Change Tanner Krause is the President of Kum & Go, a fourth-generation family-owned business headquartered in Des Moines, Iowa with 400 stores spanning 11 states. And boy, does he have a story for you. You'll learn that Kum & Go is more than just a convenience store. On top of being a fun place with a die-hard fandom, the service mentality that the company embodies is exemplary, and you'll be sure to feel Tanner's passion through the mic as he expresses his mission to improve greater equality and kindness for humanity. In this episode, we deep dive into Kum & Go's history and learn how it all started out with a love story. Tanner also touches on crucial decisions that were made during each generation, including his own, that all impacted Kum & Go for the better. Overall, Tanner feels his greatest purpose is to ensure that his family and others are proud of Kum & Go for generations to come. To him, that means using his privilege and opportunity to be a force of change for the many forms of inequality America endures. That being said, how can you become a force of change, even in your own small way? In this episode, you'll learn... The name for Kum & Go came from the last names Krause and Gentle, named after Tanner's grandfather and great-grandfather Tanner speaks fondly of his grandfather Bill Krause, a charismatic person with a gift of making people feel special and paying attention to detail, no matter how influential he became. Although the number of Kum & Go stores are smaller than they were in 2004, Tanner's father Kyle ensures that the chain of stores left were rebuilt, ensuring a continuity of quality and improving the financial health of the company At Kum & Go, the 5 core values they stand by are passion, integrity, teamwork, caring, and excellence Kum & Go has generations of service-based leadership. In an industry where products are not generally differentiated, Kum & go wins with its people, which is why they've maintained such success for 61 years Tanner stresses that in today's day and age, you cannot require a consumer to come shop and meet your needs at the store. They need the freedom to shop in person at their own convenience. Therefore, developing the technology for that freedom was essential to Kum & Go. Almost every decision you make, you think is right based on the information you have at the time. It is important to remember this when hindsight overturns your original decision Tanner encourages families with privilege to make transcended progress in driving change on matters of equality. Kum & Go associates get six weeks of fully paid maternity leave, which is rare for retail in Iowa. Thus far, this has impacted about 3,000-4,000 people. The family age of first employment at Kum & Go is 9 years old. Tanner was so excited to work, he unsuccessfully negotiated to start at 8. Resources Tanner Krause LinkedIn: Tanner Krause Twitter: @TannerKrause Kum & Go Website: kumandgo.com Twitter: @kumandgo Instagram: @kumandgo TikTok: @realkumandgo LinkedIn: Kum & Go Quotes [19:48] We have core values at Kum & Go. We have five. Passion, integrity, teamwork, caring, and excellence... A Kum & Go person is somebody who embodies those core values. Somebody who gets out of bed in the morning and thinks about making days better for others, "how do we come in and serve?" And it's been this service mentality that has led us to be successful. [31:44] Success in the convenience store business is getting some getting somebody to inconvenience themselves to go to a convenience store [46:47] The fact that somebody's going beyond just, you know, buying drinks and buying gas from us, but to say, "You know what? This company, this brand, this store, this experience is so cool, I want it too, and I want it to be a part of my personal story and my personal brand," I get really proud. I'm really happy I see it, and it brings a smile to my face. [48:53] Inequality exists in a variety of forms in America. And in order to make acceptable progress, it cannot be the oppressed that drive change. The privileged have to drive change. For us to really make transcended progress and success in matters of all sorts of equality, it has to be people like myself, people who look like me, people who have wealth and opportunity like I have, people that have education like I have, that recognize this and say..."Why don't we be the force of change?" Podcast Transcript Tanner Krause 0:02 Kum & Go's purpose is to make this better if we're successful in our purpose, and if we can give you just a glimpse of incremental joy or happiness, when you think about the impact that we can have in the country by being a small source of joy, that's exciting to me, about, you know, how we can leverage what we do to drive the change, we want to see. That's what we're trying to do. And we invest in our associates and we design our associate value proposition, not in a way in which, you know, what does the market demand? Or does the market bear for things or for people, but, you know, what do our people deserve? And listen objectively, like with a global perspective, do our people deserve a living wage to deserve maternity leave? Do they deserve health insurance, you know what that list look like? And you know, before we start to add bells and whistles over here, and let's stay focused on people in our employ, and make sure that they're respected and dignified, except that they shouldn't be. And that's what we've tried to do. Marc Gutman 1:02 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the baby got backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big Back stories, and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and today's episode of Baby Got Back story. How a young boy from Iowa grew into his destiny to run one of the largest networks of privately owned convenience stores in the Midwest. I am so excited about today's episode, because I'm personally obsessed with relevance. How do we stay relevant? How do we reinvent ourselves? How do we move forward with the world as it moves forward around us? And how do we stay relevant while effecting change. And today's guest is all about relevance. Last week, we had Ariel Rubin from Kum & Go on the show. And today we are talking with Tanner Kraus president of Kum & Go. And before we get to Tanner, I want to remind you to rate and review this show. If you're listening, I'm assuming you like it. And if that's the case, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple podcasts and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines the ratings on their charts. ratings are good for us so we can continue to produce this show. Better yet, please recommend this show to at least one friend you think well like it. That's just being a good friend. Tanner Krauss is the president of Kum & Go headquartered in Des Moines, Iowa. He is the fourth generation to lead the family owned business. And as President Tanner oversees the marketing operations, human resources, information technology, finance and storage development functions. Together, these teams provide support to 5000 Associates and 400 stores across 11 states. I mentioned that Tanner is 32 years old. But you wouldn't know it by listening to him. And as you're hearing today's interview, he was raised for this job. And he knew ever since he knew something that this was his calling. And the combination of the two makes it no surprise that he is President today. What may surprise you is Tanner's perspective on the convenience store. But the impact they're making on their employees, their communities, and the world. Tanner is not simply along for the ride. He sees Kum & Go as a platform to do good while continuing to build the business. As I mentioned last week, as a customer, I am so enamored by Kum & Go. I seek out their stores when I'm on the road. And I'm so honored to have Tanner Kraus on the show. And this is his story. So I am here with Tanner Krause, the president of Kum & Go. Tanner, welcome. And if you could start off by telling us, what is Kum & Go? Tanner Krause 4:26 Well, Marc, thanks for having me. And shout out to all your listeners out there. I love talking about Kum & Go. So Kum & Go is a convenience store company based in Des Moines, Iowa. We've been around for 61 years. We're in 11 states across most of the Midwest, and we've got about 400 locations Marc Gutman 4:47 and kind of a funny name. Where does the name Kum & Go come from? Tanner Krause 4:54 Sure. Kum & Go is a name based actually on my family. So we're a family business on the fourth generation of my family to lead the business. And, you know, Kum & Go and grew out of one store in Hampton, Iowa in 1959. And I like to say that Kum & Go was a love story. You had my grandpa who was working for a kind of oil, who's about to get relocated to Wyoming. And his soon to be father in law said, there's no way in hell you're taking my daughter from I went to Wyoming in the 50s. Why don't I buy that service station that's for sale on the corner, and you can run it and we'll go into business together? So what's keeping Nancy Gentle in Hampton, Iowa was the impetus for the first store in this business. And it was Hampton oil company. Well, we grew pretty rapidly that a good little model. And finally, we needed a name, and didn't want to call it Hampton oil as we went into these other small towns in Northern Iowa. So we needed a name. And they wanted to name my grandpa, my great grandpa that brought in the K from my last name Krause. And then the G from my great grandpa's last name, gentle. So we have the name Kum & Go. And this is early 60s. So my grandfather's go into the sign company in Northern Iowa. And they say we need you know, we have whatever nine stores, we need three signs for a store. And here's our name, sign guy goes, Okay, it's 50 bucks a letter, and does the record tick, as all right, it'll cost you this much money to buy signage for your stores. And being a scrappy entrepreneurs that we were, they look up the name and said 50 bucks a letter, that's too expensive. What if we do this, no longer will be a nd we'll use the ampersand, save two characters. And we can spell come instead of spelling kome. We can spell it Kum save a third character. And then they got a new quote, they probably saved I don't know, 4000 bucks or something and early 60s, and Kum & Go, as you know, today was named Marc Gutman 7:18 Ah, that's awesome and it's become an iconic name ever since. And then. So from that moment, where we're kind of in this moment where the name gets more or less branded, or I guess maybe the the typography of it comes about in this organic way. And the name comes about what happens there with the business, how does it continue to grow and expand? Tanner Krause 7:43 Well, I think the thing that we've gotten better at recently is talking about the elephant in the room. And there was a long stretch of time where we didn't know how to address the reality that it is our name, and the innuendo and the euphemism and the underlying sexual tone in our name. So we avoided it. And looking back, that was probably the wrong strategy, because we allowed others to control the narrative of our brand assets. Instead, we now embrace the fact that our name is our name. And we're controlling the narrative, and we're doing so in a way that doesn't cheapen who we are, it doesn't invite further sexualization of our brand. It addresses the awkwardness in a mostly mature manner and we even stamped out rude or de sexualizing comments on our social media accounts, so that we, we don't have that type of negative activity or surrounding us. And so now it's becoming more of the conversation and more normalized, and we're seeing a really positive reaction to that. Marc Gutman 9:03 Yeah, that's awesome. It's really this idea, you know, that I've talked about before, which is brand or be branded, like, either you're out there talking about it, or other people are, but people are talking about it. And so better, like, as you mentioned, to, to try to, it's not even, like control the narrative, it's just like, inform the narrative, it's more like shape it because, you know, narratives are kind of our two ways. You know, a lot of times are most of the time with our customers. And so, I love that and so, kind of getting back though to when you have these scrappy entrepreneurs, they're they're building the business, how did the business grow from what I was trying to maybe ask and, and I loved your answer because I but I did a poor job. I think of the asking the question was, how did the business grow from that point on how did it begin to become this bigger thing that started to spread out across multiple states and and over the generations have all these all these locations? Tanner Krause 9:55 Yeah, happy to tell that story too. So, you know, we had a bit of magic That first service station back in Hampton, Iowa. And she had a couple things going for you that my grandpa and my great grandpa. And so my grandpa, Bill Krause was as charismatic a person as I ever met. He was incredible with people, you remember everybody's name, he remembered more than just your name about you. And he made you feel important. He made you feel special. And he never lost that. And no matter how influential or wealthy he became, he was always had a gift with people. And he worked his ass off. He, you know, my grandma still tell stories how when we had that first store, you would close overnight? Well, he would pin the home phone number to the gas pump. And if there was a trucker driving through Hampton at night, they needed to go to his store, call him he would put his boots on, got to bed, drive down to get the sale, and then go back home and sleep the rest of the night. And so he was that kind of guy. Then you had my great grandfather, who was, you know, the consummate merchant, he was this business man, he, he owned a pharmacy in Northern Iowa, before he got into the gas and oil and service business, his family, his parents ran a fruit stand and kind of predict that depression era Iowa. And so he was good at merchandising, he was good at, you know, buying for $1 and selling for two. And so they really pioneered and what's the modern day convenience store, at least in our part of the country in which you had this model that was very automobile focused. And it was oil changes and tire changes and fluid changes and gas. And it was kind of basics. And they were one of the first you know, it's the story is told the first to really start to merchandise, staples with your automobile products. So they were selling bread, milk, a eggs, nice to have, they were really bringing convenience to the customer. And that combination of merchandising and marketing, slash sales and people skills was a really successful one. So the store started to work, show them a lot of money, relatively speaking. And then they were able to kind of go town to town across Iowa. And you know, no business plan, No formalities, a walk into the local banker and say, Hey, this is my model, do you believe in me with a small loan, I can get one of these going in your town. And that worked. And it kept working. And I kept repeating itself. And then that became Kum & Go, and then we're growing through the 60s or going through the 70s, or growing through the 80s, pretty organically kind of one at a time slow, slow, slow, as you get to the 80s. And into the 90s, especially our business grew to where we were able to start kicking off a decent amount of cash. And we were able to do some acquisitions. So we really grew from a store count perspective and a geographical reach in the 90s especially. And so we had this operational magic, and to some extent, a strong brand. But really the magic was in our ability to execute in stores, we could take a bankrupt chain of convenience stores in any town in the Midwest, buy it and run it and be able to make a good money and have really quick returns through that process. And so we did that, that got us into Omaha that got us into Colorado got us into Tulsa gotta finish Springfield, Missouri, got us into a lot of the markets where we are today. So my grandfather really led this scaling of our enterprise largest your acquisition. The next chapter is you have my dad coming up to the business. And so my dad graduated from USC of Iowa in the mid 80s, and went straight in to Kum & Go. So he's grown up during all this time. And he becomes CEO in 2004. And he shifts our growth strategy as a company. So we were an acquisition based company, we shift to grow into an organic built company again, where we now start to build our own stores. And what he saw was while the acquisition led growth had really positive short term returns, right, you're buying really depreciated assets you're putting Kum & Go on the storefront you're putting Kum & Go people in the store and more importantly, and you're getting quick paybacks, so that was spinning well for us. But you wake up one day, we have 450 stores, all different types of associating customer experiences. We've got some stores of 711 built we've got some stores that getting go bill, we've got some stores that mom and pop in Oklahoma built and they're all over the place in terms of asset quality product offering product mix, plan, the grand the whole nine yards was really scattered. And so our brand suffered ultimately, as a result of all that even though financially we're quite strong. So Dan kicks off this massive initiative to start to build new and rebuild the key real estate that we own and divest non strategic assets in real estate. And we are just about on the tail end of this project, but he kicked off. And I think it was 2010 or 2011, we're really got ambitious about turning over the chain of stores that we own and operate. And so we now have, you know, in his CEO, experience or leadership, our store count has gone down, as we've divested, but we've built new stores, high performing stores, our volume for outlets are growing rapidly, and our overall company financial health, and ultimately, the profitability has grown substantially since he took over even though our total number of stores is actually smaller than it was in 2004. Marc Gutman 15:57 Yeah, and then you come in and you become president. And we'll get there in a second. But I kind of want to take a step back because you so clearly articulated, and thank you for sharing that story in that that journey of Kum & Go and your family. And so do you have brothers or other siblings? Tanner Krause 16:15 I do. Yeah, I'm one of four boys. Marc Gutman 16:18 Okay. And so it can you just give me a rundown of what that looks like in terms of ages and things like that. Tanner Krause 16:25 Yeah, so my older brother Ryan is in law school. He's doing social justice law at the Cardozo School of Law in Manhattan. On the second oldest, my younger brother Elliot, also lives in New York City. He is a director of a creative writing program at a Jesuit High School in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. And my youngest brother, Oliver, is the director of analytics for Parma Calcio. Marc Gutman 16:52 Oh, awesome. And so thank you for that. And so this might answer my question. So when you think back and you know, Tanner, you know, you're 856, something like that growing up in Des Moines? Did you always think that you would someday? Be in the family business? Did you dream of having a leadership role Kum & Go? Or was there something else for you? Tanner Krause 17:15 Absolutely, this is my dream. And I'm blessed to say that, you know, I woke up, I woke up, I grew up, and I looked up to my dad, I looked up to my grandfather, even my great grandfather, you know, he passed away when I was 18 years old, so a lot of exposure to him as well. So, you know, I looked at, you know, my family as, as role models as as aspirational to me. And I've always known I would do this. And I've always known that I would be a part of Kum & Go. And most of my life experiences were designed around preparing me to have the job I have today. Marc Gutman 17:57 Yeah. And so it's interesting, like, I like when I go into a Kum & Go, I feel that it's different. And I don't know why. And I think that that's always the hallmark of a great brand is you can't always identify why you're feeling something or why you recognize it. But there's these little things, you know, and and perhaps I can, I can trace it back to the stories you shared about your grandfather, your great grandfather and how they approached business. But like, you know, you do feel welcome, if there is a and I want to ask you, you know, what you mentioned, you know, we have Kum & Go people, which is a Kum & Go person, because like when I go into a common ghost store, I mean, you talk about things about being a family business, there's values that are printed in different, you know, areas of the store, I mean, it just feels different. Has it always been that way? Or is this something that that's a little bit new with the brand and the way that you're communicating your brand story through the store? Tanner Krause 18:51 But I think we're communicating our brand story in a new way. But I think that thread of consistency has been coming to people. And we've as a brand, if you look back over the last 60 years, you know, if you heard a lot about what I was saying, relative to our assets, we were not winning on asset or store experience or store quality for most of our company's history. Have you walked into Kum & Gos today, thanks to the hard work of my father and our real estate team, we're finally winning on store stores, right? Our stores by and large, are bigger, brighter, newer, younger and better condition better materials than the competition. I'll put our fleet up against just about anybody in the business. However, that was not always the case. Like I said, when we're buying bankrupt seven elevens in downtown Omaha, you don't have great assets. So we had to win with people. And we have core values that Kum & Go we have five passion, integrity, teamwork, caring, an excellence. And so what is it coming to a person a kind of a person is somebody who embodies those core values. Somebody who gets out of bed in the morning and thinks about making days better for others, how do we come in and serve. And it's been this service mentality that has led us to be successful. And you saw that by now my grandfather was not above doing anything in a kum & go store, even when he was in his 60s and 70s. If the garbage was unsatisfactory, he would take the garbage out. If the pumps were dirty, he'd walk in and say, you know, where are your cleaning materials, he walked out and he cleaned the pump, and I saw him good, I'm going to Kum & Go to stores, where here's this, you know, semi retired founder, cleaning palms, taking out the trash getting the mop out of the bathroom, that's who he was. And so we have generation, decades of service based leadership of customer service based associate training and culture built into our DNA. And ultimately, we haven't been able to win on assets for a long time products in our industry are not very differentiated, you'd walk into our store, it's a similar line of products. And when you walk into our competition, that's a tough place for us to win. So you got it went on people. That's why we've been successful for 61 years. Marc Gutman 21:19 I love that. And you know, you mentioned that you were always destined to do this, that this was your dream job. I mean, do you remember that first day when you became president? Like, I know, you were in the company prior to that, so it wasn't like you just like, walked in, you know, one day and became president, but like, we scared like, Did you think like, Am I gonna be the fourth generation that screws this thing up? Like, did you have any apprehension? Tanner Krause 21:45 Absolutely. You know, I knew how to say one thing, my dad still CEO in the business, now he empowers me more and more every day. And at some point, there'll be an additional transition, where he'll step out of Kum & Go a little bit more than he is today. He'll Kum & Go zone by the crowds, group. Kraus group owns and operates 10 different businesses soon to be 11. And so we've got a lot going on in our portfolio. And he's trusted in the power of me, and I'm appreciative of that. But absolutely, I've I've been scared, I've been worried, I've been nervous. That motivates me, that gets me out of bed, you know what you said, I think about a lot, right? I feel the pressure to perpetuate what we do as a business as my main responsibility in this life. And I'm not going to fail, we are not going to fail. And we are faced with some of the greatest challenges that Kum & Gos ever faced, in my lifetime, we will see my prediction, almost the complete eradication of the internal combustible engine, gas will go away, it'll become a novelty, right, the shift to electric or hydrogen fuel cells or some alternative energy source is a matter of when and not if, even though we still have a lot of time to figure that out. And then you look at what technology is doing to brick and mortar. Sure, our industry has been relatively protected from e-commerce, because it's harder to get a hot cup of coffee delivered to your door from Amazon than it is to get a book. And so we're a little bit inflated, but that's coming and you're seeing that happen now. And so I view it as a personal responsibility as a failure responsibility to step up and say, we're not going to take the easy way out and sell. And we're not going to get our lunch eaten by somebody who hasn't been doing this as long as we've been doing this. So whether it was the first day became president, which was June 1 2018, I was 30 or today, or in 10 years, we're going to get up every day and say how does Kum & Go continuing to live its purpose How does Kum & Go continue to sustain itself generation after generation so that not only my family has something to be proud of. But every family of the 5000 people that we employ has something they can be proud of for another generation. Marc Gutman 24:14 And that's you know, quite a mantle to carry and you know, I can I can feel like how much it means to you. And so when you think about it, what is the future of convenience if we are moving towards this new world? You know, what does that look like? What are you thinking about? Tanner Krause 24:30 As I became a president, I've tried to shift the mentality of Kum & Go for a long time. We've classified ourselves as a convenience store. We're no longer a convenience store. We are in the immediate consumption business. That is our value to the customer is coming those stands for a place where it is easy and quick and convenient to get something to eat drink that I want now. The convenience store has merely been the model of delivery for us to meet that consumer need. And because of technology and shifts in consumer behavior, there are now other ways to meet that same need. So we have to focus on being the immediate consumption retailer of choice for our target customer. So that when you are in Colorado, one snack, once in a drink, want something to smoke, you think of Kum & Go. And we remain the most convenient option to get it to you quickly and conveniently for your immediate needs. And that means evolving beyond traditional brick and mortar retail, that means leveraging our existing brick and mortar stores and locations to our advantage, because that remains our major competitive advantage over disruptors and people from outside our industry. And so we'll leverage that. And it means developing technology to allow for the consumer to shop us at their choice. And to not require that consumer to come get in their car travel to our store and shop on hard turf on our terms in order to meet their needs. Because in this century, it's all about customer and convenience. And those customers will pay a premium for. And so if we're not there, and if we're not on the attack, and we're waiting for customers to come to us, we're going to be out of business. Marc Gutman 26:30 Yeah, and what I can say about like, even in this time, in this present day, you know, like I every every summer, I drive my family from Colorado, to Michigan for the summer, and I you know, good, right? Right through come and go territory, right, right through come and go country. And literally, I mean, my family is like, we are only stopping at a common goal. And especially if you're new, they called Fresh Market, or what's the new the newer concepts, the marketplace, the marketplace where they have healthy options where they have good food, you know, it's interesting. My kids are like, I won't eat at McDonald's, I won't eat it fast, you know, like, and so it really does feel like you understand the customer and who you're trying to serve and the present day and modern customer, you know, like you walk in any of your competitors. And it's like, basically, there are no healthy options. And it's like pizza that's been sitting there for, you know, probably half the day and things like that. So that really is felt, you know, and one of the things that so impresses me about coming, go. And so when you think about convenience, and maybe you, you know, mentioned this a little bit, but what's hard about it, like What don't we get, like What don't we see and what's hard about your role and the way that you are trying to bring convenience to your customer or instant consumption. Tanner Krause 27:46 The hardest thing is consistent and quality execution. And Ours is a model, like most retailers, where you've got your typically lowest paid associates, handling your customer delivering your customer service, and executing what needs to get done to make your business run. And so because we acknowledge that we try to culture is set up, Kum & Go. And again, a spirit of service to where we call our corporate headquarters, the store Support Center, and we look at our store associates as they come first in the value chain. And how do we support what happens in our stores? How do we make their days better so they can make our customers days better? How do we take complexity and non value added work away from our stores and into our store support center so they can focus on what really matters? And that's taking care of the customers? Marc Gutman 28:57 This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline or even your product or a brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out at www dot wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. You know kind of Want to shift a little bit and talk about how, you know you and I became introduced via social media roundabout way and right before this episode airs, we have Ariel on and so a lot of our listeners, listeners will hear about a bit about that approach and things like that. But like what I'm really interested in hearing, you know, you're younger, you know, you just kind of, you know, laid out your age or you're 32 if I'm doing the math, and so you definitely have that perspective of, of social media. But, you know, my family comes from the oil business, and my extended family. And so I've been around a lot. And I think of it as a real, like, old fashion, not willing to move not very progressive. I mean, certainly not your family, but you know, your, your competitors, of course, and to think that you came in and said, Look, we're going to do things differently, we're going to meet our customers where they are, which is on social. I mean, like, how did that all come about? Was your dad like, Tanner? Like? I don't know, or was he just like, do it like, was he like, yes, like, I believe in this? Tanner Krause 31:03 Well, my dad has been a huge supporter of mine. I mean, he's he's given me opportunities that I didn't fully expect, or maybe didn't have full confidence in my abilities, which, if you don't know me, is kind of rare. And he believed in me, and he supported me and encouraged me through the way. And growing up the business and seeing us up close, then from afar and up close, I've kind of coming out of the company a few times on my track, I understood that we needed to stand for something greater, and that Kum & Go a little bit had had lost a little bit of a differentiation. And I say this a lot success in the convenience store business is getting some getting somebody to inconvenience themselves to go to a convenience store. How do you drive for that irrational behavior in which it might be a little slower, or a lot more out of my way, or potentially slightly more expensive, but there's just something there that I like, and it just draws me to it. And we're doing what we can to differentiate on the product side, and you call out some of our healthier options, we're going to go further in that direction. But a bulk of our revenue is still in ubiquitous product, right? You're talking alcohol, you're talking tobacco, you're talking packaged goods, either under cooler or on the shelf. And there's that last X percent, that we're doing proprietary stuff that is different. However, this social, you know, what I can take credit for is a lot longer than I can't take credit for, I can take credit for attracting creative talent and getting out of their way. And the good thing about social is that the numbers speak for themselves. And it's a subset or it's an industry and of itself by now, where you've got instantaneous feedback from the customer. you post something, what was your engagement? What were your life over your views when your shares and you can get that feedback, and you can see if it's working or not. And you can see progress over time. It's more challenging. If you hire somebody as an accountant and say, you know, do accounting, right, you're not getting instantaneous feedback from the customer. And so, Arielle and I are friends who've been a family friend of ours for probably close to 20 years, he was our roommate with my older brother in New York City back early 2000s. And when we had this opening, I knew he could bring something different. And I don't fully understand what he does. I don't get social like he does. That's okay. You know, Arielle has no approvals necessary to post. You know, he's this, you know, Director of Communications at our company, and he's got full authority and he fires away. And he's smart enough, and we see the progress we've seen in access. And he has created that same type of empowerment culture on his team. You know, he recognizes Instagram is a powerful medium, and recognizes that he's okay at instant. But that's not really his microgeneration and it's not really his sweet spot. So he hired somebody who was personally excellent an Instagram to come help us on that medium, tick tock becoming more important. Now, Arielle, and I probably know nothing about Tick tock, but we know enough to know that it's important. And so are you recruiting hired a person who was individually extremely successful at Tick tock, and we empowered them to come in to Kum & Go, and they've done an incredible job with that platform and our brands. And so our success and social, I don't deserve much credit at all. But what I can say is that I've tried to hire credit talent and get out of their way. Marc Gutman 34:55 Yeah. And as you were speaking, I think that you think that is like normal? Or that that is the way that most people do it. But I can reflect back to you that it's not. And that you know that that leadership style of trusting in your people. Like, where do you think that comes from? And I have to imagine, again, having experience in family business that's like, that's got to be hard, right? Like, it's got to be hard. I mean, Kum & Go, might as well, it might as well say, Krause across your chest, you know, I mean, that is the same thing. I mean, Kum & Go is your family. It is your family moniker, it's you, you laid it out very clearly, like this is your purpose of life to you to make this make this thing keep going? And like, Where do you think that leadership style comes from, where you have that ability to care so much in in that caring, you're able to let go and let people have their voice and do their job? Because I it's not, it's not something we typically see. Tanner Krause 35:55 I think it starts with my dad, and my dad trusted and empowered me and gave me the chance to succeed. And he gave me a chance to fail. And he knew that if I screwed up, there'd be limited consequences, at least with the amount of slack is give me at the time, right? And when you own your business, you don't have to explain yourself to anybody. You don't have external accountability. It's an incredibly powerful advantage that we have. And we have complete job security. So if a tweet fails, or a post fails, in which we've had a poster to fail, arguably, Marc Gutman 36:41 Ariel shared a couple on his episode. Tanner Krause 36:43 Sure. So it's there. Right. Okay. What happened? You could argue that that posts end up being a success, because we're talking about today. And it was a semi innocuous tweet about a sporting event at Iowa State game, which, you know, Arielle, the sports novice and Iowa newbie, underestimated people's passion for, you know, the Seahawk rivalry. And you know, we got one wrong. Okay, we deleted a tweet, we wrote a Mia culpa. And we moved on. And guess what send us back failure of epic proportions where people, you know, like putting out there and rewards loyalty cards. We probably doubled our Twitter following in since then, right. I mean, failing on social media post has minor consequences. And so we've just said, you know, what we do? I've Kum & Go, you know, it's not brain surgery, right? I mean, we're selling snacks. We're selling vices, we're selling things that people enjoy the simple need. Let's not take ourselves too seriously. Marc Gutman 37:48 And, yeah, I mean, when you is that also your leadership style, though? Like, I mean, you're kind of like pinpointing social, but are you very much a, get the right people in the right place and let them do their job. Tanner Krause 38:01 Indeed, you know, I listen, I'm less experienced than probably anybody that has a job like mine in a company like mine, I recognize that. And so in order to compensate for one of my perceived weaknesses, I hire people that have that experience. And I don't try to tell them what to do. They've done this before. I've got ideas, I've got passion, you know, I've grown up in the business, I know, Kum & Go really well, I know what might work here, but don't always know how to get things from idea mode to execution mode. And so I find that in people and I hire them, and I'm big on measurement tools, you know, to me, we've got to focus on the right measurables or metrics for our business. And we've got to have the leadership group set goals for ourselves over some period of time, and say, Okay, we're going to move this number from A to B over the next five years. And I'm going to empower small number of people to be ultimately responsible for making progress. And so long as they stay within some, you know, brand code operate within our core values, you know, do these things in a good and sustainable way and go for it. And if you screw up, that's okay. Because, again, we're trying to be outdone. And if we miss earnings for a quarter or a year, it doesn't matter. Because we've you come and go as a generational business, we make investments over a 10 to 20 year horizon. And so if we have some hiccups along the way, the setbacks are minor. So yes, I try to hire smart people, hire talented people, make sure that we align on a direction, make sure they understand how they'll be measured. In terms of success, and then give them the tools they need to be successful. Marc Gutman 40:04 Well, and you mentioned that you had, you know, the latitude to fail, and you have some security within there, outside of social are there is there a failure or an instance you've had, since you've been at the helm of the company where you were dislike, that you can recall or, you know, were, it was it was one where maybe you'd like to have back, Tanner Krause 40:26 almost every decision that you make you think is right, based on the information that you have at the time of the decision. And there are very few decisions that I've made in my leadership experience here, where I've looked back and said, what I knew, then I did or said the wrong thing. And with the benefit of hindsight, you look back and say, Boy, if I had could have that one over again, I would. But if you're talking about you know, mistakes, or you know, asking for a mulligan, hiring is challenging. And when you hire externally, if you can do better than 50%, you're a good selector of talent. And, you know, time will tell I made a lot of hires in my few years in the business. And I've not gotten every one of those right. And that's had, you know, at times, so significant consequence, in terms of, you know, setting us back months, or maybe a year on a significant body of work. And so yeah, you know, if I could look back at some of the hires that didn't last or didn't work, and do those over again, I'd love that opportunity. Marc Gutman 41:35 Who wouldn't? Right? Who wouldn't? And, you know, one thing I really love about common go is that it's, it's a brand, you've branded it. And now there's these things, and we talk about sometimes on the show about, you know, whole brands, not the logo and the name, and it comes down to things like core values, and the underlying essence and the why and the purpose of what you're trying to do. But you've also created some really cool, like visual brand, artifacts, some hats, some gear, some fanny packs, like, where does this focus? Because some, someone's got to say, Hey, we're gonna do this kind of stuff. Where does this focus on elevating and building the coming go brand come from? Because again, like, you don't see that from a whole lot of other people in your category, right? You don't see shell, you know, doing a really great job with that. And some of these other, you know, smaller, smaller convenience stores and things like that. So where does where does that come from? Tanner Krause 42:33 Well, there's this incredible pride and loyalty and sometimes a rivalry amongst regional convenience for change in America. And none of the industry has this kind of, oftentimes rooted in the style, like loyalty and passion around some of these brands. And this is kind of, oh, you're that brand, or where did you come from, or you got to pick aside or whatever else. But there's this really strong, just organically develop passion for our brand that existed, you know, in and of itself for decades, that we've been able to tap into recently. And, and it's about, from my perspective, at least, it's a, it's about taking pride in what we do. And it's about wanting to lead and own a company that does cool stuff. And that doesn't just look at what we do, as, you know, X's and O's. But what we do is, how do we build a company where we can have fun, where our associates can be proud of what we're doing, where our customers are proud of what we're doing. And so, you know, oftentimes, it's like, not as complicated and, and being relatively small, and certainly, you know, privately held helps, but if we want a fanny pack, and when I say we, I mean, my brothers me, Arielle, you know, then let's make fanny packs. And I bet we could find some fans on social that would also love fanny packs. And your audience can see the shirt I'm wearing, but you know, Kum & Go one in a ward for an LGBT organization in Iowa, and I filmed an acceptance speech that said, you know, what, I want to come up with a T shirt with pride colors. And so we made a combination of product colors. And it's just a function of taking pride in what we do, and wanting to have fun along the way. And, you know, oftentimes, these are little, you know, swags that we just develop and build and, you know, creates buzz around the brand and creates advocates out there, it gets us a lot of awareness and, you know, we're on the right people's hips are on the right people's chest, and next thing, you know, like, Kum & Go becomes the brand of preference for the next generation of rising consumers. And so, you know, I'm confident that in 20 years, and these kind Uh, you know, regional c store brand wars, there'll be a lot more people out there saying, Oh, yeah, coming goes my company because, you know, but back when I was in college, you know, the fanny pack was the coolest thing on campus, or they stepped up for, you know, my school's LGBTQ organization in a way that other people didn't. And so, you know, we're having fun, and we're breeding loyalty. Marc Gutman 45:24 And I want you to think back in two recent memory, and I want you to think back to the last time you saw someone wearing some Kum & Go, the peril in the wild, right? Not at not at a store, but you're just out and about, maybe you're having a nice night out or something. Did you? Can you remember that? Tanner Krause 45:43 I haven't been out of the house in about nine months. If I go back deep into the archives, I can have a couple of things that come to mind. Yes, Marc Gutman 45:51 yeah. And so when you think of that, like, maybe maybe you can share with us like real briefly like what you're thinking of? And then like, how does that make you feel when you see someone wearing your brand kind of out and about town and rep and Kum & Go and they don't know who you are, you know, you're just you're just across the square or whatever? Like, like, Can you share that with us. Tanner Krause 46:10 It's a unique feeling to work for a family business, it's, you know, I worked outside of the company, I've worked inside the company, and the amount of pride that I have for Kum & Go is unparalleled, I wouldn't be able to find this working for I don't think any other company in the world. And so when I see, other people choose to associate themselves with our brand. Again, we're not a company that really earns any money on memorabilia, or products, or merchandise or wearables, that is not what we do. So the fact that somebody who's going beyond just, you know, buying drinks and buying gas from us, but to say, you know, what, this company, this brand, this store, this experience is so cool, I want it to and I want it to be a part of my personal story and my personal brand, I get really proud, I'm really happy I see it, and it brings a smile to my face. Marc Gutman 47:08 And you're talking just prior to that to about your involvement with the LGBTQ community. You know, as you know, I've been following you on your company on social and you're your champion of a lot of progressive issues. Where does that come from, like this idea of, of being a Stuart, a champion, a representative for these types of issues, again, we just don't see a lot of convenience stores or a lot of businesses, and there's a lot of businesses don't even do it in general, that are out there as a champion for these groups. And where does that all come from? And what's that all about? Tanner Krause 47:40 You know, my family's extremely privileged. I mean, just extremely wealthy. I mean, it's not really a secret, right? I mean, we are who we are. And through that privilege, we've been able to see a lot of the world. And we're extremely well traveled, I'm very fortunate to, you know, have the experiences that I've had in life, I've been able to live in foreign countries, my brothers have lived in foreign countries, I've been able to educate myself to a master's level, as have all of my siblings. And you know, with that comes perspective. And we've always been raised with a strong sense of, you know, what's right, and a strong sense of respect and dignity for others. And, again, going back to my grandfather, who has one of the most prominent figures in the state of Iowa, and was not going into stores and barking orders, but he was changing trash as a, you know, 70 year old man and expensive car in the parking lot. And we've always just felt a general respect for humanity. And personally, I feel responsible to stand up to improve equality in this country. And inequality exists in a variety of forms in America. And in order to make an acceptable progress. It cannot be the oppressed, that drive change, the privileged have to drive change, for us to really make transcended progress and success in matters of all sorts of equality. It has to be people like myself, people who look like me, people who have wealth and opportunity, like I have people have education, like I have that recognize this and say, You know what, my family has plenty for generations, families like ours, and even families, less affluent and privileged as ours are doing so well. That it's time we look around and say why don't we be the force of change? And why don't we reach a handout and help some of our brothers, our sisters, our friends, our associates, our customers in these oppressed communities and say, I see you I respect you. I'm here for you. And I'm going to Put your needs, and you get into basic levels of human dignity about me getting who knows a lake house or some other, like ostentatious acquisition that we could do. Because that, you know, the time has come for, you know us in power and us in privilege to join this fight, and to, to stand up for matters of equality, because, you know, it's, it's been on too long. And I recognize now that, you know, I've got this platform, I've got podcasts like this, I've got other engagements where I can speak on things. And I want to draw attention to these. And it is rare, unfortunately, in our industry, and it's rare, unfortunately, in the corporate world. And that's too bad. But maybe if I go first, and other leaders and companies say, okay, like they did that, and guess what, like their business didn't fail, or customers didn't leave them wholesale, or whatever measurement they might be worried about that outcome didn't happen. And guess what, people got a little bit better life out of it. Did that success, the impact that I want to leave in this world? Sure. It's about coming up being sustainable. But it's about bigger than that. It's about how do we how do we push for a better humanity and, and one of the things of just how America is constructed is that private enterprise drives an outsized amount of change in the world, we have this free market approach to most of our economies, to most of our societies. And so I look at something that we did last year where we gave maternity leave to our frontline associates. And so now Kum & Go associate working in a store to get six weeks of fully paid maternity leave, that is rare for retail in Iowa, we were able to give that benefit to about 3000 4000 people, right, but it's bigger companies look at what we did and say, You know what, that was good. Or now I have to do that thing to be competitive in the labor market with Kum & Go, then those 3000 people, and then these other companies over here, follow, then that might be 30,000 people. And then next thing, you know, we might have just gone a whole generation of islands or Americans that have access to what should be a basic civic right to be in this country of paid leave for newborn children got that benefit. And so what we try to do is recognize the inequality in America and stand up for those that are oppressed and do what we can. And listen, before I stop talking. We're not perfect. All right. We're not we don't do everything. Right. All right. And we've not been this way forever. And you've got a long history. And I'm sure there's things that people can point to and say, Well, what about this? And what about that, and those things are probably true, and they're probably fair to say, but what I can say is that we care, we see oppression, we don't stand for it, and we're trying to stamp it out. And we're going to do better every day. But we're not going to be perfect starting today or tomorrow. But I promise you, we're gonna make progress in the right direction. Marc Gutman 53:07 Yeah, and certainly, you know, if you can't hear it in Tanner's voice, you know, I thought he was gonna come through the screen at me so passionate about this issue. And so he does care. And Tanner as we as we kind of come to the end of our time here. I've got two more questions for you. The first being What's your favorite store, or at least the the one that you're most proud of, and why? Tanner Krause 53:30 My favorite store is at the corner of 16th and Ashworth road in West Des Moines. Because that was where I started working. The family age of first employment Kum & Go is nine. And so at nine years old, I put on the white shirt and tie for our uniform then. And on Tuesdays and Thursdays after school, I would go to work, I would sweep, I would mop I would stop the cooler, I would clean the shelves. And if I was lucky, I could run the register. And so for me, that's where it all started. Yeah, I Marc Gutman 54:03 mean, I can only imagine you're like, you know, just waiting probably as eight year old Tanner to become nine to go put on that uniform. Tanner Krause 54:10 I actually tried to negotiate an earlier start date this is speaks to my passion to the company. So my brother started at nine as well. And he's just older in his grade than I was he's an October birthday. So he turned nine early in third grade. I'm a June birthday. So I turned nine late in third grade. And so I tried to negotiate with my dad, you know, Hey, Ryan got to be working in his second month of third grade. Therefore, I think I should be able to start working and my second month of third grade and does the no you start working when you're nine. And so I went back to school. Marc Gutman 54:45 Are you June 19 by any chance? Tanner Krause 54:48 June 22. Marc Gutman 54:49 thought we're gonna share a birthday. I was really excited. I was gonna announce it like live on the show that we we had a similar birthday but Tanner, so I want you to think back to That nine year old boy on that first day, walking into comigo and that brand new uniform, so proud and what do you think he would say, if he saw where you are today, Tanner Krause 55:11 but I haven't fast this ascension into leadership happen quicker than my wildest dreams. But, you know, I, I was I made that nine year old proud, you know, I hope I make all 5000 people that we employ proud I take a two minutes of pride in this company. I hope I make my grandfather proud. He's an incredible role model in my life. And he passed away in 2013. And, you know, he knew I was I was going down this career path. And so I was fortunate enough to have that alignment with him before he passed. But I think about him every day. And you know, I I just try to take my responsibility and stand up for what's important and make those around me proud. Marc Gutman 56:02 And that is Tanner Kraus, president of coming go. I'm sure you could feel Tanner's passion and commitment coming through the mic. We had a chance to talk a bit after and it dawned on me that Tanner sees entrepreneurship, the business not as the purpose. But as the tool, the tool that can affect change, both locally and globally, the tool that can provide better lives for their employees and the tool that can be a voice for those who can't speak for themselves. And yes, we're still talking about convenience stores. But when done right, like Kum & Go, any business can change the world. And a big thank you to Tanner Krauss and the team that Kum & Go. Your brand was started as a love story. And I can't wait to see where the love story goes. Next. We will link to all things Tanner and Kum & Go in the show notes. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. A lot big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can't deny

BGBS 051: Ariel Rubin | Kum & Go | Twitter Is Hard! Ariel Rubin, Director of Communication for Kum & Go, is a Webby Award-winning digital strategist with over 10 years of experience in social media and content creation in Uganda, Sudan, Turkey, Switzerland, and the United States. Ariel is a master at Twitter, bringing progressive, fun, and human content to Kum & Go, a fourth-generation convenience store chain with its headquarters based in Iowa.  As Ariel puts it, brands have a responsibility to be good corporate citizens. He uses Kum & Go's signature humor to bring an audience large enough to amplify the voices of marginalized communities that don't usually feel like they are heard. We applaud Kum & Go for continuing to stand up for humanity and feel inspired to do the same. With that, we ask you, who will you stand up for today? In this episode, you'll learn... Ariel has lived all over the world, including Turkey, Switzerland, Uganda, London, and more before talking to the president of Kum & Go and deciding to settle down in Iowa  Kum & Go is a fourth-generation owned business from a family that has lived in Iowa and has served its people for over 60 years The reason why Ariel chooses to be funny on Twitter is because when he wants to speak on a serious issue, he has a built audience that will listen Ariel describes Kum & Go as compassionate, welcoming, inclusive, and open. When tackling today's issues, they put humanity and science first You can't underestimate the power of publicly standing as an ally in a state like Iowa, where people may feel like their voices aren't heard All of the content created for Kum & Go is organic, created in-house, and on free software without many promotions. And yet they've found outstanding traction in the online world One of Ariel's biggest posting failures was a meme about college football. Of all his time posting about global crises, he never received nearly as much rage as with the college football scandal When posting on social media, Ariel does not just compete with other convenience stores for your attention. He competes with your texts, streaming shows, the news, and more. Getting even 5 seconds of your time is difficult  Maintaining relevance is a challenge because audience behavior is changing every day. That is why Ariel never plans a tweet and would rather begin conversations based on what happens that day on social media Consistency is key with social media, even when you don't find easy success. Resources Ariel Rubin LinkedIn: Ariel Rubin Twitter: @arieljrubin Kum & Go Twitter: @kumandgo Instagram: @kumandgo TikTok: @realkumandgo Quotes [9:27] Here at Kum & Go, it's actually about some really inspiring things. And to me, that was what was exciting about it. It wasn't just a convenience store, it was a place that cares about some really progressive causes and actually wants to show up in the community in a really powerful way. [21:04] I think brands just assume that people care about their thing as much as they care about their thing. And the thing is, you've got to earn your audience's care and earn their trust...The strategy behind this whole thing is that I want to be funny on Twitter because when I have something serious to say, I want to have someone to say it to. [23:46] Frankly, our strategy, I don't put much stock into that, because the platforms are changing so quickly, algorithms are changing so quickly, the audience behavior is changing every day. I haven't planned a single tweet in my life. I don't have a tweet ready. I don't know what I'm gonna tweet today. I don't know what I'll tweet tomorrow... And that is on purpose.  [27:28] There's a lot of people here who don't feel like their voices are heard and I think if we can help amplify those voices and help show up to this community, I think we're doing good work. Podcast Transcript Ariel Rubin 0:02 We did a tweet about the cyclones and the hot guys college football and it was one of the teams lost and so the team, we ended up getting image of a team getting pushed down the stairs, it like spread on Reddit and spread all over and people were absolutely livid. I mean they were taking photos of themselves cutting up their come and go and rewards card and tweeting it and calling for boycotts. And it was like this huge fear and we had like emergency meeting and people were would never I mean, I would I had like, it reached like the far reaches of the internet in Iowa. And it was like a real And anyway, the news covered it. I was quoted in the Des Moines register. I'm very proud of them to have this on my resume at the time. Twitter is hard says come and go spokesperson horio ribbon. Marc Gutman 0:55 Casting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory. We are talking with Ariel Rubin, the director of communications that come and go, Wait, wait, you mean, come and go that convenience store and gas stations with that funny name? Yep, that's the one. Today's guest Aereo Rubin is a Webby Award winning digital strategist with over 10 years experience in social media and content creation in New gunda, Sudan, Turkey, Switzerland and the United States. And today, he heads up social media, and communications that come and go. That don't go anywhere. I'm going to tell you why Ariel is going to be a must listen episode right after I remind you to rate and review this show. If you're listening, I'm assuming you like it. And if that's the case, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over iTunes or Spotify, iTunes and Spotify. Use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Better yet, please recommend the show to at least one friend who you think will like it. If this is your first time listening, please consider subscribing. subscribing is like being best friends BFF. We might even get BFF bracelets. But only if you subscribe. Alright, back to Ariel. I asked Ariel to be a guest on today's show. Because I was drawn to his work. I noticed that Kum and Go was showing up on social media, first Instagram, and then Twitter. At least that's how I discovered them. And I was immediately engaged with their content. They were funny, progressive, human, fun, interesting. And they are a convenience store. And that began my stocking of Ariel. I had to know how all this worked. Who was the crazy person behind building out a strong voice on social media? What did their operation look like? Did they have 100 interns creating all this content? Spoiler alert, they do not. How did they approach social media? Is it working and on and on and on? Ariel covers all that and more in our conversation. And this is his story. I'm here with Ariel Reuben, the Director of Communications for Kum & Go, Ariel, what is Kum & Go and what does the Director of Communications do at Kum & Go? Ariel Rubin 3:50 Well, first, thanks for having me. Marc, It's fun to be here. What is Kum & Go? Kum & Go is a convenience store chain based in headquartered in Des Moines, Iowa. We have about 400 stores a little over 400 stores now in 11 states. And basically, we're a fourth-generation family run business that started here and really has grown up to be a place it really prides itself I think I'm an opening his doors to everyone really being welcoming, being there for the community, we give 10% back of our pre-tax profits to communities we serve to charities. That sets us apart. And we're really kind of a country that's led by our values, you know, we really look to the communities we were serving and think about how we can kind of make things better for them. So it's a sweet place to work. I really like it. I've been there for about a year and a half. And the Director of Communications, as Director of Communications, my kind of remit is, is our public and kind of internal communications work in our PR or social or events that we put on. Obviously, we're doing quite a few less events in person, at least right now due to COVID. But that's sort of the world we work in and then yeah, everything in between. Marc Gutman 4:55 Yeah. And to those of you listening so you might be asking yourself like why are we talking to a guy that you know does communications for a gas station and convenience store? And you know, a little bit of the backstory is that Kum & Go has gotten my attention for their very progressive, very engaging social media campaigns, particularly on Twitter, they have a really nice presence on Instagram. And so I personally was so intrigued, I was so captivated. You know, I've also been a fan of the actual the store locations, when it when we're on road trips, my kids all want to go because you can feel that there's something different. And I think that that's a really cool thing about a brand is you don't always know why you love it, you don't always know why you're drawn to it, but you feel that it's different. And you walk into a Kum & Go store and they're friendly, and they're light, and they're bright. And they offer, you know, different offerings in terms of healthy food options, and all sorts of things. And people just generally seem happy there. So that's a little bit of the context of why we're talking about Ariel. Like, I want to get into your story. And I kind of want to, you know, get to how you're doing social media and why you've even decided to do it. I mean, I don't follow any other convenience stores and gas stations. But you know, when we met, I was super intrigued by your your background, because you're not from Des Moines. You certainly don't have a background in convenience stores or the oil industry or gas stations. You know, why don't we go? I mean, did when you were growing up? Did you think that you'd be running communications and social media for an outfit like Kum & Go? Ariel Rubin 6:34 Oh, that's a no, I I don't think I did. That was not necessarily something I was planning to do. But you know, as my grandmother would have said, Man plans and God laughs so, you know, here we are. No, it's been a while. I mean, I guess a bit of background on me. I'm, I'm not from Iowa. As you mentioned, I'm a bit of all over. I was born in Canada, I grew up in North Carolina, I went to University in New York. I was in New York for a while, and then I kind of was all over the place I was in journalism, or trying to be for a long time. Many years ago, I worked in Uganda as a newspaper, I had a Master's from the London School of Economics, actually, in human rights and development in the UN were actually involved in communications. And that was really where that my passion for that came, I started the first Twitter account for UNDP, the United Nations Development Programme in Sudan, or done blogs there ended up I was in Sudan for three years and then went to Turkey for two years where I worked for the UNDP there as well running digital content. And then I worked for the International Committee of the Red Cross in Switzerland, where I was the head of digital content. And that's where I got to do some really cool stuff with the pretty amazing humanitarian organization there traveling all over the world, producing some cool kind of, you know, engagement campaigns, both with communities we work with for there, you know, communities in Sudan, or Iraq or wherever, but also community back home, how do we get people engaged? How do we get Americans and Europeans engaged in some really, really tough subjects? So that was what I was doing for almost a decade. And I ended up through sort of a kind of a fortuitous circumstance, having a conversation with the president of Kum & Go. At a time when I was kind of ready to move back to us, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. But I wanted to get out of the nonprofit world for almost 10 years, and I wanted to try something completely different. And Tanner Krauss is the 32-year-old president of Kum & Go really cool guy, really personable guy. And I think a really strong visionary for kind of what a company like his can look like in the future. And he really, we had a great conversation about it. And he kind of got me excited, and the job was there. And I applied and ended up, you know, I came here from Switzerland with my wife and my one-year-old daughter at the time, and we really liked it, you know, it was like a really fun turn for me. And I just thought, you know, I think when you're doing these kind of communications jobs in general, I, for me, at least, I always want to make sure that I can do it in another space so I could I figured out how to do this in a way it's easy, quote unquote, easy to, to get people interested, I think or to do content about what's going on in a place like Syria or Yemen. You know, it's it's a pretty tough subject. And it's easy to kind of show that. But I guess the challenge for me with a place like Kum & Go was like, how do you do that for hot dogs? Like, I don't mean to make light of it. But it's really it's like, how do you get people to care about something? Ultimately, as a communications person, my job is to make you care about something that I'm doing the Red Cross of the UN, it was about some pretty tough things and here at Kum & Go, it's actually about some really inspiring things. And that was, to me, what was exciting about it was, it wasn't just a convenience store, it was a place that that cares about some really progressive causes and actually, you know, wants to show up in the community in a really powerful way. And they hadn't really figured out how to tell that story, and how to get their audience to really care about it or to know about it. So that was a challenge that sort of presented to me. And what I found really exciting to do was like, how do I get people to care about this store with a kind of a funny name, you know, how do we turn it from? It's coming out to like, wow, this is a community that's at the forefront of some really important issues right now. So That's sort of the connection for me. Marc Gutman 10:02 Yeah. And take me back to that conversation with Tanner. I mean, I can only imagine Here you are. You're, you know, living in Switzerland you're doing, you know, important work, you're doing heavy work, you're, you're accomplishing experience. It's not like you're just out of school and kind of like looking to take anything. And this young CEO of a convenience store says, "Hey, I want you to do my communication, like, what's that look like? I mean, are you at first skeptical? Are you like, all in like, What's that? What's that look like? Ariel Rubin 10:32 I think that I'm always been someone that's Personally, I've always been interested in first, I've always wanted to live anywhere. So for me living in Des Moines is as bizarre as living in Khartoum is as bizarre as living in, you know, London, or whatever. I think every place is can be really fascinating and can be really exciting, presents different challenges and different opportunities. So when Tanner and I spoke about it, I didn't get I didn't, wasn't fully I personally wasn't super serious about it at first. But again, he really did a great job kind of convincing, not convincing me even but just like kind of expressing what his ambitions were, when I saw his ambitions were really quite, quite big. And he has a really, he's got a really big vision for what he wants this to be, that was what got me excited, you know, it was kind of almost this, like, fantasy startup mentality, but he, you speak him, you'll kind of hear this and he's just got a real passion for this stuff. A really, like convinced me that this was more than just like coming to a place and filling out some press releases. And that's not what I wanted to do. And I wanted to, for me the condition that was like, conditions. But for me, the thing that was exciting about it was that I would have the opportunity to kind of run some of the social parts, the way that I thought could be effective. So having the freedom to do that, and really let it figure out, you know, give it a voice was what was really appealing to me. And again, the social part wasn't even a big part of my job description. But I was very keen, I really I said, if I'm going to do this job and do it well, I want to focus a great deal of attention on social media, because I believe that's where the energy is. And I believe that's also where audiences so they said, "Sure, go for it." Marc Gutman 12:07 Yeah, so I imagine you and I'm sure I've got this all wrong, but I imagine you skipping through the streets of Switzerland, maybe some chocolate in hand, and Ariel Rubin 12:15 Sure, yeah, fondue. Marc Gutman 12:17 Yeah, exactly. yodeling up the stairs, and you come home and you tell your wife. Yeah, we're moving. We're moving to Des Moines. Because I'm going to earn it. I don't know how that goes down. Or if you have a conversation around it, perhaps. But you know, and you're like, Hey, I really want to go to Des Moines and run communications for this convenience store. Like, what was that conversation like? Ariel Rubin 12:41 She, my wife is originally from the Midwest, and she grew up in Michigan. And so she was not necessary, I'd say, at first dying to move back to the Midwest, she sort of, I think, left for me for a reason. But her parents are in Milwaukee for they're pretty close. And we have again, we have a young child there. Now, our daughter's three, but at the time, it was really important for us for our daughter to spend more time with our family and be closer to family and friends here. So it worked out. I mean, it was not like, you know, it was and i think that you know, she and I have both grown really, really liked Des Moines and and actually find it quite cool. And I think before, obviously before COVID it was different, but now that it's COVID in a way every This is gonna sound bad, like every place is almost like a Des Moines. I don't know, there's not that much to do anywhere anymore. So I don't know if it was like, Yeah, okay, we're not in Switzerland anymore but actually Des Moines has a lot to offer. It's it's actually really fun. The people are lovely, the surprisingly good. I could go on and extol the virtues of Des Moines. But I don't know. My wife listens to this now, she's probably gonna be annoyed with me, but I think that yeah, it was you know, it was a fine conversation. She was she's down with whatever. To her credit. She rolled with it. Marc Gutman 13:49 Cool. So like, how would you describe the voice of come and go social media? Ariel Rubin 13:56 Um, yeah, I mean, I think you know, like I said, I guess when I started in the role, I was really keen to kind of look at the different platforms we were already on and see which we're working in how they're working together, what kind of voice you wanted to have for which. So for me, I naturally gravitated towards and as I do Twitter, because that, to me, it's the medium I understand the best I think, my demographic, my age, my sort of background at Twitter, sort of by era. And the first thing I did was I got clearance to kind of hire a social media specialist who and the person I hired is someone who absolutely kills it on Instagram, she was just like, I saw her on Instagram and the work she was doing and he had six times the followers that Kum & Go had on Instagram at the time. And I was like, I want someone who really wins at this platform to like run this and to me Instagram is visual is the most important visual platform we have on social media right now. It is where people are seeing your brand. I mean, that really is for me, it's Twitter's more about language and words and if you can be clever there and Instagram is really about sort of like what is your most beautiful life your most beautiful, whatever your most aspirational, living So she really gotten to use and gets Instagram just like perfectly and then she and I work really closely together on those platforms and really spend a lot of time talking about how we're gonna engage an audience what we're gonna do, we have work, she's, she's very different. She's 12 years younger than me, she's a totally different person than I than I am. But we get along really well. And I really enjoyed working with her because she's just got a great understanding of the sensibilities of the platform and aesthetics of it and voice for it. So our voice on Twitter is more of my voice, maybe in a way, it's, it's a bit cheeky, or it's kind of funny, I we don't punch down that sort of thing we try to maintain, but we try to really, you know, be part of the Zeitgeist and the part of the conversation that's happening. Like I said, I believe culture really emanates from Twitter, I think, no, I would say like, not everyone's on twitter at all. But every journalist is on Twitter. So even if my mom might not be on Twitter, she is now but my mom was on Twitter, every journalist that my mother reads or watches on CNN or whatever is on Twitter, and is developing their kind of opinions based on what they're seeing on Twitter. It's a really important platform. I mean, you know, Donald Trump understands extremely well. So it's up—to our own peril not to understand and maximize that platform, I think really well. Instagram, like I said, I think is a great place for that culture to kind of get spread further and into a younger demographic. And then the third thing is is TikTok. And we were again, really fortunate to have in our lead leadership that lets us kind of run with this stuff, we hired a 19 year old, fresh out of high school, basically, to go on TikTok because this person understood TikTok week, they had 200,000, they have 200,000 followers on Tiktok. And I said, we don't have a TikTok make it for us like go first. And their name is Evelyn Meyer, and they're brilliant. So between Evelyn, Nadia, and myself, we're kind of like the social media, I guess, brain trust of Kum & Go. And we each have a bit of a different voice. And I would say the other thing is that we we work really we're all really embedded, especially naughty, I really embedded with our associates and our colleagues and our team and our leaders. So we kind of get a sense I've been through a lot of trial and error, what that voice should be. And you know, when you hit a kind of a red line, or a third rail, you kind of know it, like there's some tweets that have definitely failed. And there's some Instagram posts that we've had to, you know, rethink, because ultimately, like, you've got to be a little bit, you've got to push the boundaries a little bit, you got to figure out where your audience is and where they want to go. And there's a lot of trial and error, you know, and that's sort of how we, we built it up. But the numbers, I think, you know, ultimately, we're judged by the numbers, it's not by what I think is funny. But by what Nadia thinks is attractive. It's really buy what our audience finds appealing. So for audience loves a photo of beautiful, we know it because the internet is the world's largest free focus group, right? It tells us very, very quickly what works and what doesn't. So we slowly over time really A/B tested it, I think a lot of different ideas and a lot of different pieces of content. And Nadia and I message each other every day, a million times ideas, and we've kind of workshop stuff on what's up what's appetite as we go. And, and that's sort of how we developed it. And again, none of this would be possible again, without can't stress this enough, without a leadership that totally trusted us. Trusted me and trusted Nadia and trusted Evelyn to do it. Because if there are layers, I think to social has to be immediate, and has to be reactive. And if there are layers of validations, and approvals and back and forwards, you really lose lose kind of the special thing about what social is, which is that's just happening so quickly, you just want to be part of it. And what happened yesterday is already is it might as well be five years ago, right? So by having the trust of our leadership by our bosses, and all the way up to the CEO, we're in a really fortunate space to be able to really try some fun stuff. And, you know, we fail tons. We also some really, really fun successes. Marc Gutman 18:31 Yeah, and you know, there were I can't, you know, start with that question was just that, like, you and your team have done something that's so to me, you know, challenging and unique, which is really giving a unique voice to something that is hard to give a voice to, you know, I think it's like a hard, hard product to brand sometimes, and you've done a really good job and maybe walk me through that process a little bit. I mean, did you say like, hey, like, Kum & Go is like the cool new, like, you know, whatever, and you're like you have a persona or a profile, or is it more organic than that? Ariel Rubin 19:08 You know, I, when I again, I'm not from the Midwest, but when I came here, I remember I said it in my interview. I lived in New York for a really long time. And in New York when I was in college, I went to NYU 15 years ago, whatever. I don't remember. Yeah, it was 15 Oh, my God. Anyway, 15 years ago, I was at NYU and we lived in. I lived in Brooklyn and we drank Pabst Blue Ribbon all the time. And we drank Pabst Blue Ribbon, not because it was a great beer and not because it was it was just the cool thing to drink. And it was $2 and you drank Pabst Blue Ribbon because we're like a posturing hipster. So I remember the how iconic Pabst Blue Ribbon was and it was like, for me it had this feeling of like, what real America is, right? And I think that so many things that feel like what real America is really come from this space in the Midwest, you know, whether it's Harley Davidson, Budweiser, john deere, Pabst Blue Ribbon, whatever, you know, Anheuser Busch, I'm I don't want a beer but equally to me come and go felt like it had that similar iconic or should have that similar iconic feeling of like a truly American thing. This is fourth generation family that from Iowa from, you know, always when I would came through and built this thing, you know, and that's like a really special, it was special, but it's still there, it's still their thing. It's not like owned by some conglomerate. It's just this family doing this thing. And I think that's like a really special thing. And I think, you know, I'm just cheesy, but like in a world where like, what is American is kind of very politicized and very, like, you know, divisive in a way. What's nice about the story that of this, and the product is like, it's just like a really nice thing. It's about like America that really welcomes everyone that opens its doors that supports black and brown communities, it supports gay communities. And to me and is this you know, as it's been around, has been there for its people for 60 years, and continues to do that. So I think that that was a really compelling story for me. And so, to be able to tell that story on social, we first needed to have an audience to tell it to so I think a lot of brands maybe make a mistake, but like, other brands just assume that people care about their thing as much as they care about their thing. And the thing is, you got to earn your audience's care and earn their trust, and you've got to you got to find them, you got to get them to care first. So we spent a long time getting people to care first, and then finding clever ways. You know, the strategy behind this whole thing is that I want to be funny on Twitter, because when I have something serious to say, I want to have someone to say it to. So if I can do a bunch of tweets that get me thousands of likes or retweets, that's great. Because the one time out of 10, that I'm going to tell you about why we're supporting this young LGBTQ group here that does incredible work with community, "Here's why you should support them," I want to be able to tell that to now I can tell that to 50,000 people, whereas a year ago, I only been told that to 20,000 people and the year before that only until that to 5000. So it slowly grows and builds that community and then people really start to recognize us for it. So I don't know that I kind of went on a tangent there. Marc Gutman 22:00 But it's great, you know, and it really seems to me that the leadership Kum & Go, assuming Tanner, really see this more as a platform not not not even social, but the business as a platform, and a enable a tool of change rather than you know, like, Hey, we, you know, yes, we're in the business of convenience stores. But really, it's that's a tool to do some other things and like, to me that, in general is a rare concept. But for a convenience store a gas station in the Midwest, I mean, you know, I think it's incredibly rare to be putting, you're not only to be backing a lot of these progressive causes, but to be like, shouting about it to be like forthright to be like front and center and saying, Hey, this is what we believe. And in no matter when you say that it's scary. But in a you know, you could be worried about polarizing a good subset of your audience or your customer base. Like where does like this just drive to be progressive come from? And then like, Do you ever get any backlash? Or do you ever like, Are you ever concerned? Like, concerns the wrong word? But yeah, do you ever get any backlash and push back on it? Ariel Rubin 23:15 Yeah. You know, I don't even know if they would admission, if they hear if they would describe it as progressive. I think they would just describe, you know, there's a very pragmatic thing in the Midwest, which I'm not familiar with, but I'm learning about which is that people just, I think that they really, it's, they just see it as human rights. They look at these issues. They look at human rights and science on these issues. And that's what we're talking about Mask use or whether we're talking about Black Lives Matter. We're looking at what is the human issue? And what is how is this issue impacting our community? And what does the science say? So I don't know if even Tanner or Kyle Kyle's, the CEO Tanner's the President, I don't know if either of them would necessarily describe themselves as company as progressive, I think they would describe it as compassionate, a welcoming, inclusive and open. And whatever that means, in today's 2020 COVID. Society, I think, inevitably becomes politicized. But ultimately, I really, I think they really would, in a way push back against it. But that being said, I think that we certainly we get we certainly received, we received comments. Sure, but I, you know, not as many as you would maybe think. I mean, really, it's been overwhelmingly I think, positive feedback we have and you know, I think one thing I really respect about Tanner in particular on this, and Kyle as well is that they're not afraid like you said it's applied, do you see this as a platform? They're not afraid, I mean, Tanner says all the time. You know, it's our job. It's on me. And it's not me. And him. He's a it's incumbent upon him to use that platform, that privilege that he was born into, and that he lives with every day, for some good and to really stand up as an ally. We just accepted an award last night from a LGBTQ organization, the Tanner spoke at it as an ally, its partner in progress. And Tanner literally just said that it said just that, and I think, again, quite why I joined I wouldn't have joined if that didn't exist here. To join, if they didn't, I'm thrilled that they let me use social as a way to amplify those messages and find creative ways tell those stories. And we've given some extraordinarily think, I would say progressive organizations and that are doing great work for Black Lives Matter and for our gay and lesbian trans communities. So, to me, it's a really exciting time to be part of a company, I Kum & Go again, I think, thanks to the leadership who have visited that, you know, that's, that's on them. So Marc Gutman 25:28 I think I think it is something though, that's unique, you know, I live in Boulder, Colorado, which is, you know, I would say, is a progressive area. But certainly, we don't have like a whole lot of convenience stores or gas stations that, you know, outside of Kum & Go that are like, Kum & Go. I also spend a good, you know, I'm from the Midwest, I'm from, you know, grew up in outside of Detroit spend a lot of time in northern Michigan, and there's, you know, you know, it's indicative of America, you know, it's split, and I would say that there is a lot of, you know, welcoming areas, and there's a lot that are less so and, you know, I again, I just you know, I find it very unique, and I don't want, you know, this to get lost, like how special this is that a gas station in the Midwest is really, you know, talking about these issues at the forefront of these issues. But were you gonna say something? Ariel Rubin 26:19 Yeah, well, you know, it's funny, I mean, we had a with this group that from last got this award from I remember, they said, they did a talk to our company. And they said this, that, you know, is it hear it when companies like Kum & Go say that, you know, publicly stand up as allies in a place like Iowa, the impact that has is extraordinary. And they said, I remember they gave us they were telling us how, like, you know, I'm from New York, I'm from the east coast. So for me, it was not as it felt like, Oh, yeah, this is just what people do. But actually here, it's not necessarily what every does. And it's not what every convenience store necessarily has. It's not just assumed. And so you have I'm not trying to, you know, top at my own peril and shoulders, you're too much I don't backs too much. But I think that, you know, they were like, you know, for a small town kid growing up in a farm community in Iowa who's gay. To hear that come and go welcomes them and stands up for is extremely powerful. But like, you can't underestimate how, how powerful that is in a place like Iowa and the communities you serve in, in Missouri and Arkansas, and all over I mean, frankly, so I that really stuck with me. And I think it's, you know, it's cool that we can do stuff like that, because there's a lot of people here who don't feel like their voices are heard. And I think if we can help help amplify voices and help show show up to this community, I think we're doing good work. Marc Gutman 27:39 This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo, or a tagline. or even your product or a brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you, when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. So kind of getting back to like when you decided to come aboard, I mean, with management. Was there this vision to have social be a core part of the communication strategy? And? And if so, just kind of like what were they thinking? Because again, like, it all kind of makes sense now it seems really like, like it fits now like, but like I go back to that probably that moment where that had to be risky, like, you know, no business I've ever worked with has too much money. No business I've ever worked with has too many resources, right? Like every decision is always like, "Where can we you know, make best use of our limited resources?" And so just to have that, like, thought, like, we're gonna invest in this area, like, can you kind of walk me through that a little bit? And what that looks like? Ariel Rubin 29:28 Yeah, well, I mean, you know, the funny thing I guess is that it's, it's not a big investment. It's organic content, by and large investment was in was in me and my, and in our social media specialist, and then in our TikTok kind of intern, the three of us is it and actually we're actually probably a lot cheaper than the agency that we were paying to do it before. So we're not, you know, it's not I do everything. We do it all in house. We do it all on free, Canva software, and it's free. You know, we don't really put money into from to promote content, like the content that does well as well because the audience finds it and and we've we've done a few campaigns with a few different smaller kind of agencies, one in particular, that was really cool and fun for us. But these are small campaigns. These are not like big, multi, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollar things. It's not at all like that. I mean, really, to me, what's social, I always want social to be a space where we can experiment and your point like no company is ever like, we make too much money. Like, I want to have that freedom to do that, not because I'm a narcissist, although it doesn't hurt and I am. But it's because I think that we can do really cool stuff that we can really find a new audience. And again, only this company where we're family run, so we don't have you know, we don't report to there's not a bunch of different stakeholders that that we have to report to, you know, the, our stuff, we don't have a store, we're not publicly traded. So there's not some stock price that I have to maintain or something you know, that a tweet could sink or something like, I am fortunate again, like a very patient tolerant and open minded leadership team. I remember there was one time, there was a tweet that we had done, I forget what ages ago and Kyle Krauss the CEO, who's on Twitter is doing a great job on Twitter, that he had this reply where someone's like, I can't believe they like let him do this. And Kyle replied, like, isn't, I don't understand what he does sometimes, but I'll always support it. And I think, as a leader, what an incredible gift right? Like or as sort rather, as for me, what an incredible gift have a leader like that, who he just trust that I'll do an okay job or that might have been I'm trying to get him to get his company to a good place, there's a need to understand like, what the meme is, or the joke, or the particular cultural thing I'm trying to get at and that maybe I miss on. He's simply saying, like, Here, you have this space to play him, go for it. So I'm really applauding them for letting me again, letting me take the risk with it. But I don't put that much. It's not very expensive, because it's really just like, you know, Nadia shoots all the photos. She's brilliant, like I do, you know, they were just kind of like a, where I see a sort of an in house creative team, really to be honest with you. And I think that that's what makes it kind of again, that's what makes it fun. Marc Gutman 32:08 Yeah. And so how do you measure success? Man, I know, you probably measure by some some typical social metrics, number of followers engagement, but are you able to track back like increase in revenue and things like that back to your efforts? Ariel Rubin 32:24 Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously, yeah, there's the there's the standards. There's the standard, you know, ROI in terms of our engagement, we look at our engagement, we look at our follower growth, we look at, you know, we look at what's working, what isn't and we ideator iterate based on that. And then we beyond sort of social success. When we look in store, we look at certain campaigns that we have been really kind of getting behind and I mean, I can tell you, for example, we just launched all day breakfast pizza. So we did breakfast pizza till 10. Now we do breakfast pizza all day, I don't remember when it stops. But when it kitchen closes, basically. And we did a fun play on that on social and, and we've seen like a major bump in power breakfast pizza. So now, it's always hard, I think to do causation and correlation with social, we also have been there is another side of Kum & Go that does marketing that does, it does do marketing, the more traditional marketing side, we don't do it at all. I'm a comms person. And I run this organic social scientists in the tire of the park side, my boss, Ben, Vice President marketing communication leads that body of work. So that also exists as an aside, but I think for us, when I look at what successes there, I see stuff like breakfast pizza selling, and I see us pushing it. I like to think that there's a nice correlation there. I think another thing we do, you know, we try to find ways to bring our online energy offline. So we do stuff with fanny packs. We made these fanny packs that have been super popular. We can do giveaways. We just did another giveaway on Twitter yesterday. 500. I didn't you know, funny thing like last person to retweet this gets a fanny pack. And it's gotten retweeted like 500 times. Again, like, we bring those fanny packs to store openings. We had one yesterday and Omaha kids show up at 6am to get these they're gone by 630. So we try to make cool stuff to retain a cool audience to find that the cool kids who are out there who want to come get it and I'd say the biggest example, I think a success online that we've been able to see is we had a really fun collaboration with Anheuser Busch, where we made a Budweiser, they let us make this incredible Budweiser Kum & Go drink a Budweiser shirt with all the proceeds going to a charity for for to benefit veterans. And that didn't we sold them out like it did super, super well. And that was like a really fun social play. We sold out entirely. We sold them online now that actually we had some in stores in another run because it did so well. But stuff like that is just like a really, it's a really fun way to start bringing that stuff offline and showing that success of that energy and where those audience that that audience exists online. And then we can kind of start bringing them into the store. And we're going to continue to do things like that both in store activations and other online. Merch plays, basically. Marc Gutman 34:47 Yeah. And so you've talked a lot about the successes that you've had, and certainly can feel your enthusiasm and energy for what you do. But like what's hard about it? You know what's hard about this endeavor that you're undertaking with communications at Kum & Go? Ariel Rubin 35:03 Um, I mean, what's hard about it? I guess, you know, they've definitely been they've been successes. And they've been total failures and busts. And I don't even mean it like that. Failed forward or anything. I just failed. Like, it just I just did stuff that sucked. And was your worst one. What was your biggest? biggest failure? Yeah, no, our biggest one. And we have a really great failure, which was the, we did Nadia and I did a post a tweet. Basically, I we were both new here. And I'm not from that. I don't really know anything about sports in general. And I certainly don't know anything about college sports. But we did a tweet about the cyclones and the hot guys are the two teams here, college football, and it was one of the teams lost. And so the team remember, we had it like it was a good image of a team getting pushed down this, like spread on Reddit and spread all over. And people were absolutely livid. I mean, they were taking photos of themselves cutting up there Kum & Go and rewards card and tweeting it and calling for boycotts. And it was like this huge fear. And we had like emergency meeting and people who had never, I mean, who had like, I had, like, it reached like the far reaches of the internet in Iowa. And it was like a real And anyway, the news covered it. I was quoted in Des Moines Register, which is I'm very proud of them have this on my resume at the time says, Twitter is hard says Kum & Go spokesperson Ariel Rubin. And I was very proud of that, quote, because you know, the end of the day Twitter is hard. And frankly, I learned a lesson which is in the Midwest, maybe, you know, don't talk about politics, or sports or religion. So you know, stay out of those three. So I, we don't talk about college football anymore. And I frankly, didn't even really understand that. But I learned from that, you know, we got a lot of engagement out of it. We got a lot of followers. But you know, obviously you don't want to do that at the expense of your base and your people. And I didn't want you know, I remember our legal our general counsel was like I dad called me is like my dad's 90. And he's like, what are you doing on Twitter? He's like, my dad doesn't even know what Twitter is. What happened? So, again, credit to everyone we work with, and everyone above me who allowed us to continue going and didn't change, do we didn't have to change, really anything. We just kind of, you know, we learned we learned a really big lesson there on that. So I think I think failures like that are super important that because you really do you learn as you develop this, but it's like a year and a half ago, we we were developing our voice and we're figuring out where those where those third rails were. And we certainly learned. Well, I mean, I got emails, I got death threats, like it was I've never I've worked in on the most hot button issues in the world, Israel, Palestine, whatever. Nothing compares to be animosity, and just deep, deep rage I got on the because of this, this one tweet. So I felt bad. And we apologize. We moved on. Marc Gutman 37:46 Yeah, as I mentioned, I'm a Midwest guy, and you don't mess with cross state rivals and college football. That's just a No, no. But like, as you were telling me that story again, like, I'm just sitting here, buddy, like, Oh, no, like, I can only imagine like, early in your your career here. And like you're already stepping in it. I mean, we were freaking out or did right away was management. Like, look, we got you. But we got to work this out. I mean, how does that go down? Like you're creating quite a ruckus early in your career? Ariel Rubin 38:16 I know. Yeah. Again, man, I don't know, I got lucky to have the management. I got like a, you know, I wrote them an email, I was like, I got some bad news. They're very cool. They're very, they're very relaxed about it. Like they, you know, they had faith in the process. You know, I think, something that I learned, maybe from that, but also, I think some in general, and this year has been a good example of that, as yours just been so crazy, I think news is that these cycles, if you I think it's always a good lesson, as a comms person, remember that, like, the outrage cycle will pass. And not only will it pass, no one will have any idea what it even was in three days. And if you can weather that storm, because everyone's everyone's, I believe everyone's attention span has just become so withered by the kind of onslaught of news and media, and then, frankly, like terrifying kind of things that are happening on a daily basis that the brains have really kind of like goldfish out and are really incapable of like handling too much just constant stimulus. So I think that where the again, the lesson from there was, was like, if you can say that you have to, I think if you can weather a storm that you can recognize that this too, will pass. And it's important always have perspective, in the midst of a kind of social media crisis or any media crisis, which is like, really, the Eye of Sauron really moves on rather quickly these days. And it's, it's important to remember that even at the time when you feel like oh, my God, this is a cataclysm and you know, our sales didn't change for the negative, we follow it. I followed it through I followed up on it with like our analytics team, and we looked at it and sales and stuff and the impact ultimately was practically non existent. So again, fortunate to have to have leadership and colleagues that that were at the time. Really very cool with it. Yes, I was. I was I was very nervous. Marc Gutman 39:56 And was that the strategy to ride the storm? Or did you have to kind of do a mea culpa and apologize, are we ever did that look like? Ariel Rubin 40:03 we did a mea culpa, we did a mea culpa. And it was actually my boss. It was her. I was like her first week, and she just been hired. So she really, I felt really more bad for her because I'd maybe been there for four or five months. And she was really new and was like, Oh, my God, you know, through this ad or like the first week. So we did do a call, but I, and I think it was probably the you know, I was he was a good thing to do kind of diffused in a bed. You know, I said, People really upset I felt really badly hurt by that. Now it was, like I said, it's never our intention. never actually anyone was attention to find it funny. I knew it is the funny joke at the expense of another audience, you know, so, you know, you live and learn? I don't know. Marc Gutman 40:48 You know, so shifting a little bit when we first spoke, you said something to me that that resonated and it was a paraphrasing, or maybe not, but it was something to the effect of socials where the conversation is, you know, can you talk a little bit more about that? Like, like, what do you mean by that? Ariel Rubin 41:04 I think that every day I wake up, and I work for Kum & Go, and all I'm trying to do is get my job is to compete with every single thing that you can do on your phone. My job is compete with the text message from your, your wife, or the photos of your kid, or the Amazon Prime membership, or Netflix or every other brand in the world. I'm not just competing with Kwik Trip, or Casey's or whatever, I'm competing as a brand for your attention and I'm competing with the Red Cross and competing for literally anything and everything. And I think that, you know, we, I just want to get, I want to get five seconds of your time today to think about her coming up. That's funny, or they did a funny tweet, or Wow, they have a great Instagram, or I got to go there and pick up a hot dog because that was awesome, whatever. Like, I'm trying to get that little slice of time. And so I think that when I say that, that's where the conversations, literally I look at audience behavior. And even now, I mean, now accelerated by the pandemic, but we look at social use and and can phone use and it's it's through the roof, it's only growing. And so as we continue on with very connected digitally native younger audiences, or consumer bases, we're only going to continue to be focused there. So it's why I see something for example, like TikTok, I have no real conception of and no real understanding of, but I know is where conversation is happening or culture is kind of created. I know, I want us to be a part of that. And I want us to be a part of that in a way that's authentic, both to the platform and to our brand. So I don't want to be me on TikTok talking because it's inauthentic for me because I literally don't get it. And I would look like the 35 year old. So I want to find ways to to kind of be part of this conversation tonight. I think, you know, social is the watercooler of our time. And there's I don't know where everyone else is. But they're all there constantly. And I think probably much to our society's detriment, but is what it is. Marc Gutman 42:54 Is that why you do what you do? Ariel Rubin 42:56 I mean, I think I'm a product of of our broken brain, social media generation. Yeah, I mean, I was probably, you know, and I, I find it really exciting because I think as when I was younger, I wanted to be a journalist, because I thought that was a really compelling way to kind of tell stories and share news with people. And I think, as I got into journalism, and I had a terrible career as a journalist, I wasn't very good. But I think that, as I got into it, I realized that early on that, you know, what was really, for me really exciting was the kind of constant flow of information that was happening in places like Twitter. And at the time, Facebook when I was younger, and I think that was, I've always found that really addictive. I mean, again, for better or for worse, it certainly has ruined my ability to like, read a book from start to finish. But I really I appreciate and I think I'm okay, a fairly decent at cracking the code of understanding how to get other people interested in what I think is cool. And that's what I try to do at Kum & Go. Marc Gutman 43:50 Yeah. And so like, what's the biggest challenge for you and your team right now, as it pertains to social and kind of how you see the world? Ariel Rubin 43:57 I mean, I think, you know, it's always a challenge in trying to be relevant, and try to maintain relevance, as always, because again, I think, I think, frankly, our strategies, and this matters, like, I don't know how much I don't put much stock into that, because the platforms are changing so quickly, algorithms are changing so quickly, the audience behavior is changing every day. I don't even plan to single tweet in my life. I don't have a I don't have a tweet, right. I don't know what I'm gonna tweet today. I don't know what I'll tweet tomorrow. I don't know what Nadia is going to put on Instagram, we, we do it by that. And that is a on purpose. Because I believe to be truly effective. You want to know, you want to wake up, go on Twitter for five minutes, see what people are talking about and then start developing what that conversation is going to be and how you're going to be a part of it. So I think that the challenges are always in that process. It's tough, like to kind of do that and to maintain, I think, an energy to kind of keep up with it. It's kind of exhausting. It's like there's always that kind of that challenge. And then I think more broadly, you know, it's something you touched on earlier, but it's like, we always want to think about how we can I think show success and show that we're able to not only just get lolz on Twitter or likes on an Instagram post, but actually how we can convert and drive that traffic into stores. That's always the challenge. And I always find that chall—I find, you know, I've been doing this job for a year and a half, I still find that challenge be really rewarding and fun. Marc Gutman 45:15 Yeah. And so, you know, do you have any advice that you could give anyone who is either starting their career and social and or looking to add this to their brand? Who might just be starting a little bit flat footed or don't don't know where to go from here? Ariel Rubin 45:31 Yeah, I mean, I think a few things. I think, I think consistency is really key with this stuff. I don't think, you know, I think it's, when you're building an audience, and I'm building an audience, we're all trying to build audiences. And it's really hard to build an audience like the hardest thing to do, because I'm one store out of a billion stores and one and, you know, one voice out of a billion. So I think, really, I think, consistently kind of like going out every day, and pushing and not getting deterred when you don't find easy, easy or quick success, because I think it takes a long time. And the other thing I would, I would say is, I see this actually a lot like, I think if you're starting your career, you're young, in your career, you're young, you have such an advantage. And tomorrow, in terms of this kind of world, because you grew up in it, you grew up immersed in it, you grew up, you know, I grew up with a dial up modem and AOL and it's just a different world, things are changing so quickly. And I think you grew up with Twitter, Twitter's around for what, 15, 20 years now, like, you know, that's part of and you're 20 years old, like it's just, it's always been there for you. So, you know, the language that you have that you speak in is, is you're already at such a competitive advantage to someone like me, because you just get it better, and you understand it more and you're quicker. So I think, frankly, use your youth I think is an advantage what I'd say to young people starting out and I tell people who are older who are maybe more gatekeepers or leadership positions. I always say this though, it's just like, you have to find people, trust them, and then let them do whatever they want. And that's it to me, it's fine to people that are good at this stuff. And then don't try to ruin it by like, like, Yeah, but where's my brand go? Or like, what about putting this in the photo, like, let the people that are really, really clever at at figuring out a platform or, you know, under understanding an audience, let them do that work for you. And really trust them to do it. Because that I think, is where certainly we've seen and I've seen Nadia and Evelyn are my two kind of colleagues really extraordinary success and some really really fun stuff happen. Marc Gutman 47:18 And so outside of your mobile phone, what's your favorite social media tool? Ariel Rubin 47:24 Outside of my phone? Like what's my favorite tool to—? Marc Gutman 47:28 Just mean like use your phone to tweet and take photos and things like that. But yeah, so like, to me that would be my like, I was just trying to like, you know, get you to not say my phone. Like, what's your favorite tool? Ariel Rubin 47:40 Like but like even like platform that I'm on or— Marc Gutman 47:44 No no no no like actual tool for for doing your job. And I'm hoping to— Ariel Rubin 47:48 Literally just my phone, I don't have anything else. I don't have a single other thing. I have this laptop that I'm talking to you on. I hate it. So I it is truly, truly just my phone. I don't use a camera, I don't use I used to use a to shoot and I mean, I edit and shoot stuff. I you know, another thing I would say generally, it's like, learn how to do everything, at least a little bit well, or at least basic, you know, like learn how to shoot, learn how to edit photo, and video learn final cut or, you know, or Adobe Premiere. I think having basic knowledge, that's not a POC, I want to learn how to do podcast, no idea how to get like, think learning all that stuff is really important. So I can do a little bit of all of that. But the Yeah, I just use my phone for anything. Marc Gutman 48:27 Incredible. No, it's good. Like, I'm a tool collector, you know, so like, some tool. Um, but actually my favorite tool is probably Facebook Creator Studio, because I like that I can you know, do it with Insta and load up, you know, schedule posts and things like that. Before it was only like you can't do or you have to have some weird, weird thing. So yeah, so that's what I like the most. But you know, there's people out there like, you know, Hootsuite and Buffer and all this stuff. But yeah, that's not me. I'm on a more like one to one. Ariel Rubin 49:01 Right on. Yeah, yeah. So you know, as we thank you guys, we come to a close and towards the end of our time here, like what does the future look like for for you in Kum & Go and the social team like where do you think this is all going? I have no idea. But I'm you know, I think again, like this has been the year I'm like any that I've ever I've ever experienced that, you know, earlier, we asked me how I got from Switzerland to here and I think I was working on Ebola at the Red Cross and things like that. And I was like, I'm done with all that, like, I want something that's going to be light and I want to live in Iowa and I want to relax and I ended up coming here and having like the most politically and sort of, you know, intense it's been an intense year and you know, dealing with you know, COVID-19 has been super intense. So I, I hope I hope the future for coming go in future for the country and the planet is one which sort of we'd get Oh, grab a grip on this pandemic and can kind of go back to it. I don't think we're going back to normal ever But I think go back to, I don't know, pretty, you know, it's content that's a bit more fun and a bit lighter. Because it's just been a really it. It's been a tough year for a lot of people. And I hope that for Kum & Go in general that I, you know, again, I think that I think we have a really exciting plan for what this company, how this company wants to be ended up. It's been around for 61 years, it's gonna be around for a lot longer. And I think there's a lot of interesting ideas for how you make and how you reimagine and re envision what convenience looks like in the 21st century, especially post COVID, I would say. So I think it'd be interesting to see what this company does and where it goes. And I'm excited to be part of it and hopefully, continue driving really interesting conversation and building an ever bigger ever growing audience. Marc Gutman 50:39 Yeah. And I kind of alluded to that was my last question. But you've made me think of one more. You know, I think that there's something really interesting that has happened that there's this shift where people are looking to brands, for their news, they're looking to brands for their information, they're looking to brands to like, how do you feel about COVID? How do you feel about politics? How do you feel about what's happening in the world? I think that's, like, a real, profound shift that that is not happening has happened. You know, you know, and, you know, so how do you? How do you approach that? How do you handle that, when so many of your community, so many of your of your audience, your customers are looking to you for commentary on like, big topics like that? Ariel Rubin 51:26 Yeah, I mean, you know, I think you're absolutely right. I think it's, it's scary, that that's where we are as a society, I don't think it bodes well for us. But leaving that aside, I think that brands have a responsibility to be good corporate systems and be good people and kind of be a good, good corporate citizens. And I think that this isn't a new burden, maybe for brands. And I think, you know, I think the brands that succeed, and the brands that we're going to talk about in 5, 10, 20, 50 years, we the brands that took this kind of moment seriously and took that responsibility seriously, and and, frankly, are the ones that I think that we're on the right side of history. So again, I I'd say that I wouldn't work for a company that I didn't think was on the right side of history when it comes to these really important issues. And I'm proud to work for a company that is has been pretty explicit with where they stand on this stuff. So I think yeah, I think it's a brave new world. Marc Gutman 52:21 And that is Ariel Rubin, communications director and social media mastermind at Kum & Go. I hope you felt like you got a social media master class, because I certainly did. And did you hear what he said? It really doesn't take much to do social right? To build an audience to create a platform. But it does take time. It does take mistakes. And it takes a whole lot of trust between internal collaborators. And of course your audience. Business is the platform for social good for creating corporate citizenship as Ariel put it. So what are you waiting for? Build a social media team, have some fun, change the world. A big thank you to Ariel Rubin and the team as Kum & Go. Continue to be that voice for your community that might not be able to shout loud enough for themselves. We will link to all things Ariel Rubin and Kum & Go in the show notes. Please make sure to go follow them. Check out their socials, you might just learn something. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. I like big stories and I cannot lie, you other storytellers can't deny. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

BGBS 050: Cory Bayers | Patagonia | Success Looks More Like Activists If there are two things Cory Bayers does exceptionally well, it's buying a lot of sushi and having a big heart. As the Vice President of Global Marketing at Patagonia, Cory leads storytelling for the higher purpose of saving our home planet. Cory's humble disposition, fervor to learn, and respect for the standard Patagonia is held to as an environmental leader makes it all too easy to rally behind his success. His passion for growth propels him to leap towards risk and adapt to the moment (including that time on the chandelier in Austria), and we can't help but want to do the same. For our special 50th episode, good friend Mike Arzt introduces Cory and provides fun insight and perspective to his journey. This episode will warm your heart, make you laugh, and inspire your inner activist. You truly can have it all at Baby Got Backstory. As accomplished as Cory is, he stresses that over time, the marketing campaigns won't be what he remembers most, it will be the people. With that, we wonder, what can we all do to focus more on our relationships right now? In this episode, you'll learn... Cory advocates that Patagonia's value-based mindset and excitement for advocacy is just as real as it seems and courses through all of its employees When Cory asked Yvon Chouinard what success looks like for Patagonia's future, he responded that they might be smaller. That was the perfect answer to Cory because it proved that the company cared more about impact than metrics. The most difficult part of marketing for Patagonia is that their audience holds them to a high standard. Although it is scary to be called out when something isn't perfect, Cory encourages the community to continue because it pushes them to be better. Always the adventurer, Cory moved with his family to many places for work, including Norway, California, Seattle, Vancouver, and more. Cory valued the decentralized marketing model that Lululemon took on, which tolerated risk and allowed for a freely creative environment. When Cory joined Patagonia, he felt like he was coming home. He found himself full circle working for one of the first brands he ever fell in love with. Instead of worrying about what's next, Cory prefers to stay in the present and focus on the relationships he's made over time. Cory overshot the sushi order by 120 feet. You'll get it when you listen. Even as an experienced leader, Cory still feels a sense of uncertainty and risk when putting out something new as a marketer, and he considers it a good feeling For the next generation of creatives: Don't chase perfection or let your ego rule you when you're figuring life out. There will always be great moments and hard moments, so dive in and be okay with how things turn out. Resources Website: patagonia.com Instagram: @patagonia Facebook: @PATAGONIA Twitter: @patagonia LinkedIn: Patagonia Quotes [7:54] The conversations are real. It's values-based, it's on a mission, and it's a serious mission. And it's not just, "Hey, let's put a mission up there but we're really out to sell a product." No, it's not like that at all. We truly are in business to save our home planet. [22:37] I fell in love with the business of sport or that interaction, or that blurring of the lines really, between fun, passion, and sport and work.  [30:41] Heck, I'm still a student. I'm still learning every day. And I love that aspect of it. [44:11] I enjoy that aspect of being able to help coach and impart some of my knowledge on the next generation of marketers and creatives and people that are going to change the industry way more and change the world way more than I have or will. Podcast Transcript Cory Bayers 0:02 I don't know how it evolved. We were standing somewhere and there's one of the rooms and there's no furniture is just literally the castle. And it was a massive room with this ceiling that seemed to go on forever and hanging down was this crazy big chandelier like one of those you see in the movies like it looked about 810 feet in diameter just hanging there but like wood and it had candles, it wasn't like electric or anything. We can handle one. And I was like, Am I as a kid you always see movies like people swinging across those things. So I thought, hmm, Now's my moment to shine. And I care what I was standing on. I just jumped off of it, and landed on the chandelier and Swan across the room. Marc Gutman 0:54 from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman. Mike Arzt 1:14 Mike Arzt here super honored to be introducing Cory bayers for the 50th episode, Baby got backstory. I've got a long, long history with Cory. And I can honestly sit here today knowing I'd be on a much different paths if I hadn't been lucky enough to get to work work with Cory through a couple different companies he's been at. So for me, as I as I thought about our journey, I realized how much that I was at a kind of a pivotal point of my career in life. I was freelancing, but we hadn't started our agency yet. We were starting a family but didn't have a family yet. Like it was this is this big moment in my life of I think stepping into a whole new level of growing up building a business building a family when I cross paths with Cory. And so as I look back on that I feel like it was the stars aligned to have a mentor a client and a friend like Cory taught me so much that I still think is a big part of the foundation of what we do today. So I first met Cory when we got hired, actually, I got hired to be the snowboard team manager for Helly Hansen. Cory at that time was working for Helly in the Seattle office, heading up marketing. He got the opportunity to move over to Oslo, for Helly Hansen, moved his family over there. They had their third child while in Norway. And we were constantly going back and forth. And not only getting to, you know, go over there and work with them. But a watched him raise his family in a foreign country. And I should say, well, Cory was working in the US he was the Canadian, so he was already an expat. So it was really, really amazing time. And what I learned from Cory was that he was super calculated and organized, when it came to budgets and expectations and just just real clear vision of where the marketing of Helly Hansen was going. And I think sometimes that stifles creativity, but when you have someone who has creative vision, and formulaic execution, with budgets, that's I think what is so hard to find these days, we work with a lot of different clients and you know, some very wild style and you go out and get stuff done. But it's it's rare. When you find someone that sort of puts that whole package together and has a ton of fun doing it, rallies the teams around them. People are excited to go work extra hard. And then Cory has also got the other side that you kind of got to watch out for that might not come out till later night. But let's just say that a Cory's liver was built and designed in Canada. And it's a powerful machine that you should just know what you're getting into. We've seen we've seen some weaker folk not not survive. So yeah, just this great, great journey, learning from Cory, him really giving us an ability to expand the work we did with Helly , which was at the time we were launching the Public Works our agency, it all fell into place. And I can sit here probably 15 years later knowing that it was a huge chapter of my life with so much fun and education and I owe a ton of that to Cory. So it was cool to see him make the decision. Eventually to leave Helly Hansen go to Lulu lemon, which was a move back to Canada. You know, Lulu time was you know, I think a brand that so many people are envious of watching seemed like They were just on top of the world. And Cory Cory had a great gig there. And his family was back in Canada. He was closer to solid quality hockey, which I know is a big part of his family's being. And then he got this opportunity to go work with Patagonia and head up their marketing, which I think for any of us who love the outdoor industry, or the outdoors, or companies that take a stand and do really hard things, I mean, Patagonia is at the, at the pinnacle. So now Cory sits in this position of, I mean, he's, he's in a position now this is going to change the world. You know, what he does, what that company does, what his team can do. It's profound change, so couldn't be more proud of him and thankful for the time that we got together. Marc Gutman 5:56 So I'm here with Cory Bayers the Vice President of global marketing at Patagonia and Cory, what does a vice president of global marketing at Patagonia do? Cory Bayers 6:06 That sounds pretty official. Wow, I'm all grown up. Marc Gutman 6:11 It's about time. Right? Cory Bayers 6:12 Exactly. My mom always want me to grow up someday. Um, well, it's very official title. Basically, I have the great fortune of leading an amazing group of people at Patagonia in Ventura, California, and in our offices around the world. Communicating with the brands up we tell stories, you know, I work with, you know, creative teams, marketing teams, strategy teams, operational teams, you know, lead books and film, basically all all the brand communication, non non non graphic on product, but any other PR, communications, branding, marketing, advertising comes comes out of my team and I work super collaboratively with people in Ventura, the business units, with, you know, marketers and market. So there's a lot a lot of great collaboration. Yes, that's kind of what I do. I tell stories about a pretty amazing brand. Marc Gutman 7:10 Right? I mean, that sounds like the job I want when I grow up. So you got it, you got a pretty good, so I'm gonna hop right into it. Like, what's awesome about working at Patagonia? Like why, you know, why do you love it? And what's so great about it? Cory Bayers 7:27 Ah, I think I said to someone the other day, someone asked me, they said, What? Well, you know, is Patagonia's as real as it seems like his value base like, is it? Is there any bullshit there? Like what goes on? and sincerely Do you see, it's real, I mean, from, you know, right through the organization, from the Chouinard family, all the way through our board and our teams. The conversations are real, its values-based, you know, it's very, it's on a mission, and it's a serious mission. And it's not just, you know, hey, let's put a mission up there. But we're really out to sell product, it's no, it's not like that at all, you know, we truly are in business to save our home planet. And that's I've never been at a place anywhere with such conviction of mission and such a discipline of staying on task, you know, I mean, evolve and the family have, you know, charted waters over the last decades that it's just been consistent. You know, they've learned they've been transparent. They figured stuff out, they've LED, they've done everything. So it's really, that's the best part about working here. conversations are still as hard as they'd be at any other brand. And the work is as hard as it is at any other brand. But the purpose of the mission is real. And that's, that's what gets me up every day. So that's cool. Marc Gutman 8:55 Yeah. And, you know, at least for me, and I think so many people, I mean, Patagonia is the gold standard. It's the brand that I think of that I admire the most for all the reasons that you just laid out, I think, at least in my memory, I'm sure there were other ones. But in my memory was really the first purpose driven brand. It was really the first values driven brand where I think even as a consumer, I looked at it, and I said, Wow, they have my values. They believe what I believe, in addition to sort of this ability to transport me to a place of adventure, and make me feel adventurous made me feel like I'm part of the outdoors. So, you know, I think we see that, and I work in a space now. And you might get this question all the time as well. I mean, everyone now is purpose driven. Everyone now is values driven. I don't say that to be sort of flippant. You almost have to be you know, it's like it's, you know, the world is expecting it. But not everybody has that same sort of success. Not everybody is able to hold to truenorth the way Patagonia It does so like, like, in your opinion, like, what do you think the secret is? Or what do you think the wise? How is Patagonia been so good at that and been able to turn that in to both a company that is mission and purpose driven? that's changing the world and is a pretty good business. Cory Bayers 10:18 Yeah, that's a meaty question. I, you know, I originally thought, when I interviewed at Patagonia, I sat down with Yvon Chouinard the, one of the founders, and I asked him, I said, What does success look in five years? Like, what do you want from me? Like, what is? What does Patagonia look like, in five years? How do I know if I'm succeeding in your eyes? Like, are we moving forward? And I was sitting there with the the CEO at the time Rose and the head of HR Dean, and he Yvon just kind of, in his great way, you know, looked down at his hands and, you know, rubbed his hands a little bit and put down his feet and said, I dont know, we may be smaller, and the head of HR just went white, just pale. And I said, that's the perfect answer. And what I mean by that is, I don't really give a shit about sales, we're not numbers driven. They've had some hard years in the past, I'm sure you know, over the decades, it's a good years, and I'm sure that'll continue. But the success for them, as in Patagonia, in general is never been sold, there's never solely rests on a sales figure, or growth, target success looks like, you know, getting more activists to sign up to sign a petition to, you know, defend a local watershed to change the supply chain completely on its head to organic cotton only. I mean, those are huge success factors, regardless of a sales figure. And I'm not saying that everyone is just all other brands, we're just looking at a sales figure, but it does give us a different frame of reference of what success looks like. And I think that's that's helped us weather a lot of different storms over the over the decades. So that mentality about truly wanting to do good, and and being up for that change. And measuring that change has been such a central tenant to who we are, that I think that's our success metric. So yeah, Marc Gutman 12:18 yeah. And we've talked a little bit about what's so great about Patagonia. But what's really hard about what you do there, and What don't we see What don't we know? Like, what and what do you wish, like maybe people didn't know about the, the how hard it is? Or the hard part of what you're doing? Cory Bayers 12:34 I get Yeah, the it's a bit of a double edged sword on this one. The hardest part is, because we're seen as a leadership brand, we're held to a very high standard, which which is right. And, and to me, this is where you get the double edge to it, we're held to a high standard. But we're also open to, you know, like anyone else, even more so though we've got, if we, if we step out a line, we got to target like, people let us know. And that can be really hard when you're doing, you know, making the number of nine out of 10 things right, or 915 things right, and you do one thing wrong, and you get hammered for you're like, Damn, but there's all this other stuff. We're doing good. Yeah, we dropped the ball on that one, but look at the goodness, but I look at it, the others on the other side and go, you know, what, it's a good way to be though, you know, we're a community that cares. And we care, hold us to that standard. And that standard allows us to, to keep moving on and keep you know, pushing ourselves. So while it does get hard and frustrating, sometimes it it does pull us forward, it's a nice standard to be held to. Marc Gutman 13:43 Now you've got me curious, because, you know, I firmly believe that we often grow through those hard times when we're challenged or when there's criticism. So, oh, Can you recall a moment that kind of falls into the parameters you just describe where maybe you did a mess misstep, or you got called out and how that went and how you learn from that. And then how you were able to, to kind of, you know, return back to that high standard by through that through that learning moment. Cory Bayers 14:11 Yeah, you know, looking at as an example, you know, I look at, let's see, DWI, or you know, water repellent finish on on gardens, we are switching to be non fluorocarbon. So, not as toxic in that there have been other brands that have been quicker, because we look at, you know, what are the options. So by switching from one, one formula to another, there's impact, and it's not a marketing play, to just switch and say, Hey, we're PFC free or whatever. It's okay what what chemistry are using now, and what are the effects on the environment now, and because there are ramifications and we've spent some time looking at the solids and we don't want to jump to assault That is just makes us look good or feel good. When we know there is also an environmental impact to a lot of these options out there. So working with our supply chain working with our partners to to get that right formulation. So in some instances, we've been, you know, criticized for going slowly, and rightfully so. And I think that's fine. But you know, people need to know that we really examine all solutions, and we play through the impacts, and those impacts could be on the environment, those impacts could be on performance and durability, lifetime value of the garment itself, its performance of the garment, other harmful effects, so we kind of play through everything, we're very much, you know, measured twice, cut once mentality. And when we go, we go, but a lot of times, you know, our communities don't see that. So we can be called out. And that's, that's rightfully so. But sometimes it's a little, you know, a little hard, but it's all good, keeping us to that standard, but dw is one of the examples that we're looking at right now. And we have, we are switching and in subsequent seasons, we're going to be completely flipped, and it's going to be really exciting. Marc Gutman 16:10 Yeah, and that's really interesting to think about, you know, and that you have to have all these considerations. And I think of Yvon is kind of famous story about, you know, shifting to organic cotton and things like that. And you know, was that as that that the way that story goes was just like it was a decision, it was done? It was the it was gonna ruin the company. But you know, he didn't care and he was just going to move forward, because it was the right thing to do. Is there a little hyperbole to that story? Is that the way it happened? Cory Bayers 16:42 That's pretty much how it happened. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think he walked in and said, You got 18 months, you know, figure it out. And you know, switching to organic cotton at the time. And I'm going from story I wasn't at Patagonia at the time, because this is going back, I believe, to the early 90s. Could be 94, 96, somewhere in there. But yeah, and you know, taking people out to the farms. and showing them the difference between employees at Patagonia and inventor and showing the difference between organic farm and chemical based, you know, fertilizer and run farm and having people actually see that difference and the impact that that's having. Yeah, that's, that's fair, there's a lot of truth to that story. It's, it's completely true. And similar with this DWR as well, we're looking at, you know, timelines on there, where we're going to be flipping it. And we have that conversation with a lot of different things like, you know, we're always pushing ourselves to a timeline, like, Okay, how quickly what is the impact, and really want to make sure we're careful and solution, but at the same time, trying to run as quick as we can. One of the expressions I had heard, go as quick as you can to take the time you need. And that's been, I think, really paramount in a lot of our decision making, like we're going to run as quick as he can turn over every cell, do whatever we can, but make sure we're also examining the impacts, and then going, Marc Gutman 18:05 I mean, that part of that story that kind of blows my mind that like I haven't really thought much about, and being a storyteller, and you just shared in the opening, I mean, your your whole job as being a storyteller, is this idea of bringing the employees to see the different farms and to get their buy in? And you know, and I don't really see that very often, I think we're so consumed with external storytelling, that we don't spend a ton of time on this internal kind of component. And so, like, how important is that to you and your role? I mean, are you spending a lot of time thinking about how do we sell? and sell is kind of the wrong word? How do we like show how do we get people to see our point of view? Because when you just share that that story about going to the farms I was like, Oh, my God, like, how could you work at Patagonia and not be bought into the shift? Even though it seems scary, even though it seems big? If you're given that opportunity to insert yourself in the story? Cory Bayers 19:00 Yeah, no, it's, it's something that we can always do more of. And you're right. It's not selling to the teams. It's more, you know, making sure they're engaged. We have a very, very incredible group of people in all of our offices that are, they're there for the right reason, they're hungry, they're curious, they're creative. So it doesn't take much to share the story and go, Hey, this we're working on to get people really, really excited, which is pretty incredible. And I'm trying to think back of, you know, other places that it goes really goes really quickly like a story gets picked up. You're like amazing, okay, how do we make it happen? And people getting behind it. And there's there's very little having to sell someone in a meeting like this, the reason why we're doing it, it's more like his right reason why we're doing it. Here's some of the background and just see people light up like Oh, man, that's cool. That is, oh, yeah, let's do it. If anything, we're on the other side of that. As I always say, you know, we want to solve so many problems, we do a lot, and sometimes too much and we get it, we get, we get underwater a little bit when it comes to the storytelling or some of the things we're taking on. We've got a lot of energy. Marc Gutman 20:15 Like I can only imagine, I think, maybe it'll come up later. But I shared with you My, my, sort of thought, how I always view the the decision room, the marketing room at Patagonia, and everyone's like, you know, can we talk about something else? Maybe other than saving the planet, or public lands or water rights or, you know, all these things? So, you know, and so thanks for sharing that Cory what, you know, I'd like to know is like, you've had this amazing career. And I want to talk a little bit about that. And but like when you were a young boy and growing up in Canada, were you even thinking like, Hey, I'm going to be in the outdoor industry. I'm going to be in marketing someday I might work in marketing for some big, you know, outdoor brand? Cory Bayers 21:04 No, no, not at all. I mean, I grew up in Montreal, and grew up in the city. Luckily, we could, we spent summers in Vermont, and upstate New York on Lake Champlain. So for Yeah, all summer, basically, I've been in a tent and a sleeping bag for months on end. And that was amazing. And I always, you know, that was my connection to the outdoors and made me fall in love with the outdoors and the sports that I did. But it probably wasn't till college where I was an accounting major, which makes me laugh right now. And I'd gotten into skiing and snow sports. And there I was, it sounds bad, but I want to find a way to get to the mountains cheaper, and mean somebody just started you know, ski club, and it was a way for us to get Okay, we'll get a bus, we'll get a bunch of people on there. And if we get enough people, we'll get a few free tickets and then we can ride for free. We just got to work it and organize it and and we're not getting paid but we're gonna get free lift tickets. And I just kind of got into that and we used to get in organized try to do weeklies in the winter, like busloads of students, you know, down to like, you know, JP smuggler's notch, you know, moe, Sutton all these places, and just have fun with it. And I really fell in love with the, I guess the the entrepreneurial side, the business side, the marketing side. And some of my friends I'm hitting the longer they actually joke, they're like, yeah, we weren't sure if you're gonna graduate or just be escaped. But they're like, we're pretty impressed that you actually graduated, stuck around. But I just I fell in love with the, I guess the whole the business of sport or that interaction, or that blurring of the lines really, between, you know, fun, passion and sport and work. And then straight away, I think after my first semester, I switched from accounting into marketing, and just, you know, enjoy the creative side of it. And the entrepreneurial side of it, really. And so that was kind of the foray into into it. And when I really started to think about, hey, this could be, this could be a place I'd love to work in, and it was like, Oh, am I going to work in like, you know, ski resort like country Lodge, I thought about guiding, you know, guiding school, do I want to do that. So there's a lot of options, but I knew I want it to be tied to the outdoor sports and the outdoor community in some way that I could apply my little bit of knowledge and passion to to be part of the community. Marc Gutman 23:33 Yeah, and I would think you know, this, but maybe you don't Mike Arzt who introduced us for this episode, and also connected us so that we were able to have this interview. Did you know he had an exact same sort of like a call to racket going on, where he was putting together ski clubs selling lift tickets, like getting people to the mountain so he could go for free? Cory Bayers 23:53 I didn't know that. And I've known Mike for years. Marc Gutman 23:57 Exactly. verbatim, almost verbatim to what you just shared. It was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, did they do that together? That sounded like, like, almost identical. Cory Bayers 24:07 Although Funny enough, I know. He went to UVM. So yeah, we weren't that far. I was in Montreal, but no, I didn't know that story. No. That's funny. Marc Gutman 24:15 That's how he got his start as well. So, you know, and at that time, why don't you give us like a little sense of what the outdoor landscape look like, you know, you know, it's I think it was a lot different than it is today. Cory Bayers 24:30 Yeah. Wow. I mean, it was definitely a lot. It was more fringe. It was more varied a lot fewer brands, the space wasn't it wasn't I wanna say co opted, but it wasn't as mainstream. You know, it was a little more isolationist, different kind of pursuit, smaller group, smaller community at the time. So yeah, it was a little different in that regard. Obviously, you know, product and technology has just exploded in terms of what's possible now. But the community was a lot smaller and you were more on the fringe, it wasn't as mainstream to see someone who saw someone walking in, you know, a ski jacket or waterproof jacket or even hiking boots in the city, either thought they were student or, you know, a traveler or something like that, like, you know, a European traveler coming through backpacking through whereas now it's very commonplace. I mean, it's it's part of, it's part of the culture it is it mainstream activities and pursuits. So yeah, it's grown immensely, which has had some great upside to it. I mean, it's been amazing to tie it back to Patagonia, though, but, you know, something that, you know, people aren't gonna protect the land unless they have an attachment to it, love it, no, it care about it, or recreated, you know, on it. And by having more people involved in the sport, it's only going to get more people involved in defending the places we love. So it's, it's been super positive in that regard. Yeah, and Marc Gutman 26:00 I think at that time, there was this really interesting birth of this intersection of outdoor and lifestyle, you know, and that where people were, you know, I think, you know, that was about the time I was starting to see, you know, accountants and business people wearing Patagonia clothing, you know, around town and stuff like that. And prior to that, we didn't really, we didn't really see a lot of that. So, at this time, you know, you've made this decision, you're going to apply yourself, you're in the marketing, you see the, at least the world that you want to be a part of, you know, that it's like, hey, there's this cool thing with like, being outside and being in marketing and business and being an entrepreneur. So would you do with that, where'd you go from after you left school? Cory Bayers 26:50 My girlfriend and I went and cycled around Europe for almost a year. So that was that was fun. I had Patagonia gear at the time, obviously. And then when we came back, we knew we want to live kind of in the West, the mountains, we wanted to explore the western side of Canada and the US a lot more. And so we moved to Vancouver. And the we actually used mountain bikes with flicks on them to tour we didn't use a regular touring bike. And it was a Canadian brand called Rocky Mountain bicycle. And when we moved back to Montreal, basically packed up the car, sold everything, not that we had a lot basically had ski snowboard stuff, threw it on the car, and then drove drove out to Vancouver. And, you know, applied, we both applied for jobs sending photos from this trip to Rocky Mountain bicycle where the bicycle place that we bought our bikes from. And my wife got a job there as an accountant. And I would just, you know, hang out, you know, mess around with the bikes. This is early 90s. So mountain biking was relatively young then and kind of got into the sports team got into with a lot of those guys. And then eventually I joined Helly Hansen and I was doing marketing for Hansen in Canada. So that was you know their retail and wholesale and team and all that stuff so out of Vancouver so life was pretty good actually starting to see you know how I could actually apply some of the things I learned and the passion I had to the the outdoor industry so that was Helly Hansen was kind of my first outdoor brand that I just threw myself into and enjoyed immensely of Vancouver. That was Marc Gutman 28:33 Yeah, and when you started with Helly Hansen, what was your role there? Cory Bayers 28:37 I was head of marketing for Canada. So I was overseeing Canadian marketing. Marc Gutman 28:42 Was that a big was that a big sort of territory or big deal? Or was Howie maybe not that Cory Bayers 28:47 you know what? Helly wasn't, I guess that huge at the time. And it was a big geographic territory, but not a massive role. It was a great role for me to you know, learn and figure stuff out. I would say it had, it was big enough that I had a budget and and things I could do to get in trouble. But it wasn't so small. I was like, Damn, I'd like to do that, Oh, I can't do that. I can't do this, I had enough latitude. And and it was of enough size enough autonomy that I could kind of mess around get in trouble try some different stuff, whether it be events or ads or whatever it was, or working with athletes or or in store and things like that. So I really, I really enjoyed it a lot. It was a lot of fun. And then after that, I went to do marketing for their Mountain Sports division out of Seattle. So moved the family down to Seattle, and enjoy that as well. You know, just concentrating globally. This is a global role on Mountain Sports. So ski and snow and climb and hike. And that was that was so much fun. I love Seattle love the Northwest. And the opportunity came up. They said well, you know we want Would you like to come to Norway, and kind of You know, market the other categories as well like be involved in marketing for your kids and footwear at the time. We've got some other categories. And always the adventure is like hell yeah, I'd love to. So moved over to Oslo, Oslo, Norway and work for for Helly. They're a global that's their head office and work there for I can't remember I was there almost four or five years, I guess, in the marketing team there just met some amazing people, and just what a great culture and what a great country to live in, and what a great brand. And I learned, you know, a lot of dealing with international markets and just other stuff it was it was really cool. It's such a great learning curve. Heck, I'm still a student. I'm still learning every day. And I love that aspect of it. So now that I'm looking back and thinking, wow, yeah, I enjoyed learning there. There and there. So no, it was great. I had a lot of fun. Marc Gutman 30:55 This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo, or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. I think for a lot of marketers, a lot of people in the outdoor industry, that would have been a job of a lifetime that would have been it that would have been like, Hey, I'm going to stay with Holly. I'm going to do you know just I've got I've got a good I've got it really good. And yet another roll came came your way. And did you go right from Helly Hansen to Lululemon? Cory Bayers 32:19 I did. But the reason why I left Norway was it was for personal reasons. My dad, my parents are a little older. And my dad I was on a photo shoot in Northern Norway. with Mark Gallup at the time, good old photographer friend and my dad. My parents live in British Columbia and an interior small town called Kamloops. And my dad had a heart attack. And it took me like, as soon as I found out I was on the shoot, it took me another 3040 hours to get home, get back to British Columbia to see him. And I kids at the time two young, two young girls. And I was just like, Oh, you know, I want them to know their grandparents, I got to get home. So I went back to North back to Norway after my dad was feeling better. And it was it was tough. But I you know, the guys at Helly, were great. I just said, Look, I really I gotta get home, you know, there's a time for family. As much as I love, love the team here and I love Norway. I got it, I got to get back and take care of my my family and let them see what my parents you know, see their kids, their grandkids are. And so I went back. And they were great. And now Helly was like, hey, do you want to stay on and like, consult for a little bit out of Vancouver like helping the transition. I'm like, I'd love to. That's great. So my thought of coming back to Vancouver was, you know, maybe I can talk to a few brands and kind of string a bit of a marketing consulting thing together. You know, whatever that looks like. So move back to Vancouver landed on like July the second song hit the pavement talking to some old friends. And one of my buddies was like, Hey, you know, you should talk to Lululemon. I was like, Oh, the yoga brand over on West fourth. He's like, yeah, Cory, you've been out of Canada a little while they're a little bigger now. Okay. And this was this is 2009. And I've been out of the country since early 2000. So not quite nine years, but close to it. So 2009. And I approached them and said, Hey, you know, here's what I'm looking to do. Here's my background, I'd love to, you know, see if you have anything, you know, do you need any help? And the person there at the time was like we don't but we've got a brand role. Do you want to be brand manager here? You know, we're figuring some stuff out at the time. They're still relatively small and growing. And I was like, sure, this is kind of cool. I really loved everyone I met and what they stood for, and just every conversation I had, I'm like, oh my god I'm in. So that's how, you know, I just transitioned, you know, by mid August. I was like, yeah, I'm at Lulu. Now. That Lululemon for was almost seven years, seven years. So from August oh nine, I started at Lulu overseeing brand and brand manager role and then oversaw the creative. So head of brand creative VP brand creative for for several years. Marc Gutman 35:18 And so for folks that may not know like what what is a brand manager and in you know, maybe in the context of working at Lulu just to make it real and then also like had a creative like, like what does that what does that role do? And what are your responsibilities? And and again maybe like maybe some of the things that are that we don't know like what's tough about it? Cory Bayers 35:38 Yeah, well, brand manager very similar to you know, marketing manager, the difference that Lou lemon between I guess a typical marketing manager role. And why it was a bit more of a brand manager type role was a very decentralized model very, very interesting. And that, you know, a lot of they create locally, whether it's events and their stores and stuff like that. So it was it wasn't typical, you know, hey, here's, here's what we're doing in the month of August or whatever this is your store window and, and do that it was more about teaching them about brand about our brand about the limit brand, what does that mean? Where our values and having them go and create locally, which was really cool. In such a such a great, a great model. And then when I was, you know, before I jump to the creative side of it, you'd ask, you know, what were some of the challenges, and one of the interesting things, you know, blue lemon had, at least at the time, and for my tenure there, and I would think so still now, you know, an appetite for risk. And they knew that, you know, I'm making up out of 10 windows that a store would put out, one would be absolutely amazing, or two or three, whatever would they'd have absolutely amazing windows, and a bunch of them would be kind of mediocre, it is what it is, and you can't hit it out of the park every month. And then one or two would get us in trouble. Meaning they'd be like, Oh, that's an offensive one or you know, their media would be involved or something would get messy, like oh, yeah, okay. But there was a tolerance for that. And it was an exciting environment to to be creative within. And then I went to, after that overseeing the creative team and working with them and other talented bunch of, you know, designers photographers, film, there's a bit of film and video, you know, at Lou lemon at the time. And that was a different role that was like purely creative with a bit of a strategy to it. But the creative side of it was really guiding that, you know, what's the look, the look and feel of lemon through those years. Everything from you know, print ads to the website to how we shoot how we tell a story, the emails that go out. So all the creative communication at the time, I had the great fortune of working with, you know, a great team there to bring that to life. And that was a lot of fun to learn again, I learned a lot there. Marc Gutman 37:59 Yeah, and the way I hear the story, and please correct me if I've got this wrong as that you're at Lulu, and you're head of creative and things are good, you're happy you're doing your thing. And you get approached by by the the, the big the big white whale right by Patagonia the I was gonna say, you know, like, I was gonna say, Detroit redwings. But you know, that think that's for my like, more of my memory than the reality these days. But you're, you're you're approached by you know, the preeminent outdoor. You know, like you said, the gold standard high level. Patagonia. Is that is that the way it happened? Cory Bayers 38:37 Yeah, it was actually interesting in that when I was still in Norway, and I was looking to move back to Canada. I had reached out to a few people, like different recruiters like, Hey, you know what, I'm heading back to Canada, for family reasons. You know, I'd love to talk with you guys about something I got talking with this person, Deanna at a recruiting agency, we had a great conversation. And she's like, you know what, there's nothing at Patagonia right now. But I'll definitely keep you in mind. And she was working. I think it was in Portland, with a recruiting firm. And I was just kind of getting my name out, because coming back to the US had been out of the country for quite a while and didn't think anything of it, and then went to Lulu. And literally it was I guess it was a probably a total of eight years later, I get a call from her. I was like, Oh, hey, Deanna. We didn't talk to him forever. I'm like, Wow, great. What's going on? She's like, well, we you know, we're looking for a head of marketing. Are you interested? I still had I remember our conversation a few years ago, and like, eight years ago, about, you know, just a random conversation we had. So she reached out I'm like, Yeah, I'd love to have a conversation with Patagonia for sure. And it just kind of started they're really you know, I met with rose CEO at the time and the people here and just love them. every interaction every conversation I had, so it was it was a tough decision actually to leave to leave Vancouver to leave lemon. But yeah, it was it was. It's been great. It's been great almost five years now. Yeah. Marc Gutman 40:13 And I can imagine was a tough decision. I mean, first of all, moving from Seattle where you've established your home and you're loving it, and I was Vancouver, Vancouver. Yeah. Okay, I'm sorry, Vancouver. But yeah, you're still you're still moving to Southern California. That's a big move. And I could sense perhaps in the question that you referenced in the beginning of the show, when you asked, you know, well, how do I know I'm successful? I mean, I would have to think it might be intimidating, coming into a company that's so highly revered, like, like, you know, and certainly, at a high position. I mean, my thought is, like, I wouldn't want to screw that up, you know, I don't want to be the one that like, I don't want to be the one that like, starts to put, uh, you know, cracks in this hall of this of this ship. So, I mean, were you intimidated? was it was it a little scary? Cory Bayers 41:02 Um, I don't know if it was scary. I mean, I have gone through the 80s, you know, as skiing and in the outdoors, I was just so immersed in their catalogs, and the imagery and the brand. And I'd read Let my people go surfing that it. It didn't feel distant. It didn't feel like this is another entity. It felt like something I knew something I was passionate about something I felt close to in some weird way. You know, because I've been so involved or absorbing everything they've been doing for decades, really, like I said, since the 80s. That it didn't, it didn't seem like such a leap. And the conversations were very real and honest. And expectations were our you know, about saving the home planet, which I know that sounds massive. It is massive. But it's it Yeah, I don't know, I it's not something that really crossed my mind. It was, I guess, another adventure, a way to learn. And it's in a really weird way of felt like kind of coming home because of my, they were one of the brands that are the first brand I fell in love with, you know, when I was into the outdoors, or getting into it and getting into quality apparel, and, and what spoke to me imagery wise. So yeah, it was it was a bit of a full circle in that regard. Yeah. Marc Gutman 42:29 Yeah. So you're there. Now you're overseeing a great team, like, what's next for Cory? Cory Bayers 42:36 I don't know, keep having fun, keep learning. You know, just keep growing really keep. I keep talking about learning. I'm kind of the eternal student. But there's something that I discovered a long time ago that I really liked coaching, you know, and not to jump around. But I remember like, in the 90s, when my first jobs actually had us do this Myers Briggs test. And it's a personality test, right? And you go through the whole thing and answer these questions, and the report comes back. And I was, you know, mid 20s, at the time, and one of the things on there, it says, You you really enjoy coaching, you'd be a great coach. I never thought of that, like really a coach? like when I play team sports and ever wanted to be the coach or anything like that. But I just discovered like, okay, I want to be a coach, really, okay, I was in my mid 20s, I kind of put it aside. And then, you know, when I was leaving Norway, the team there, they put together this little photo book, and it was just pictures of me with them through my time there. So like, on photoshoots, behind the scenes on the mountain, you know, in the cafe in moss and Norway at the office, or just a bunch of stuff. And, and the thing that just broke me was they said, thanks for being our coach. And I was just like, shocked. I was like, Oh my god, I guess? Yeah, that's what I love doing. I, I like that. And I hadn't thought about that for about 10 years. And that just nailed it again. And so I am I enjoy that aspect of being able to, to help coach and impart some of my knowledge and you know, on on the next generation of marketers, and creatives and people that are going to change industry way more and change the world way more than I, I have or will. So I do enjoy that. So I don't really look too far. What's next I kind of try to stay in the present about keep learning on what I'm doing and keep keep coaching my team and keep seeing people grow because honestly, if you ask me was the thing I'm most stoked about over the last 10 years. I'm not going to talk about a campaign. I'm not going to talk about creative. I'm going to talk about relationships, people I met someone like Mike you know, Mike Arzt and the great work we've done. I'm going to talk about, you know, a young designer out of school that was I believe that intern at the time when I joined Lw lemon, on my left, she was, you know, an art director and on our way to be a creative director, just a brilliant creative mind. Those are the things I remember, I don't remember, you know, some campaign that went out that we may have felt good about at the time. So, yeah, that's kind of what I'm looking at right now. Marc Gutman 45:19 Oh, and it sounds like you've been such an influence to a lot of different people. Just even how you, you know, described, you know, your involvement in coaching and your influence and, you know, coaching the next generation of marketers, but like, who's been the most influential person in your life? Cory Bayers 45:37 Oh, tough question. I don't know if there's been just one I think through throughout my journey, there's, there's always been someone along the way that is really inspired me, you know, that we're talking about mike mike is always, always inspired me with his just creativity, his drive, his sense of purpose, the ability to have fun, I've looked up to Mike for a long time. And I look at you know, some ambassadors we've had the pleasure of working with, you know, when I was at Helly, there is one gentleman Yoren Crop, who unfortunately passed away in a climbing accident several years ago, but such an influential person and his perspective on life. And, and what he accomplished, you know, was amazing, I look at right now someone like Yvon Chouinard who's simply iconic the real deal, you know, learning from him and hearing his little bits of wisdom. So yeah, it's kind of a bunch of people all along the way, have always, you know, it hasn't been one mentor. It's been a bunch of a series of mentors. And, and even if they weren't full mentors, just learning like a snippet from here, or, or someone teaching me something going, Wow, that's pretty cool. Yeah, I never looked at it that way. You know, from even days, that loon lemon and yoga philosophy and just exploring yoga, and things like that. And I learned along the way from, you know, some of the some of the coaching we got there was it was incredible. See, I can't pick just one sorry. Marc Gutman 47:17 It's all right. And, you know, I think it's a just, there's some synchronicity in that you mentioned Mike and Mike was on the podcast. So those of you listening, you've heard us reference him a couple times, you can go ahead and listen to his episode and learn more about Mike. But Mike also had sent in a question through the baby got backstory, sort of email channels, have a question that he would like to ask you. So are you ready for it? Cory Bayers 47:44 Um, as I'll ever be. Marc Gutman 47:47 All right. All right. All right, let's, let's see, let's see. Mike Arzt 47:52 There was a time when we as Helly Hansen, rented out a castle in Austria, is maybe one of the best fashion shows parties have ever seen go down. I highly recommend renting a castle to anyone listening. Later that night, while leaving after copious amounts of enjoying the castle. Cory pulled off pretty amazing gymnastics done, and was really hoping he may be share, share what went down? Cory Bayers 48:25 Oh, geez, I knew Mike would talk about something like that. It is it is it was a castle in Austria. And it's really, it's pretty crazy. It's funny. I was at a sales meeting. Pre COVID in in Europe, or European team there. And it was in Italy and what they had rented out like, it's incredible what you can actually buildings and areas you can do events in in Europe always blow my mind. And this was a castle in in Austria. And we were launching a new season. I can't remember which season it was. And yeah, it was just a lot of fun. It's really well done. And we stayed around a big group. We had a bunch of the skiers and snowboarders there and just had a really good time. And I don't know how it evolved. We were standing somewhere and there's one of the rooms, there's no furniture, it's just literally the castle. And it was a massive room with this ceiling that seemed to go on forever. And hanging down. Was this crazy big chandelier like one of those you see in the movies like it looked about, I don't know. 810 feet in diameter just hanging there but like wood and it had it candles. It wasn't like electric or anything was the candle one. And I was like, Am I as a kid you always see movies like people swinging across those things. So I thought, hmm, that was my moment to shine. And I care what I'm standing on. I just jumped off of it and landed on the chandelier and swung across the room. And I believe there's a couple of bottles of elixir in my goggle pockets on the inside of my jacket that fell out as well when I was swinging and Mike like that story, but I just swung on that thing. And after a golf Mike was like he didn't realize that things Pro is over a couple hundred years old, he could have killed yourself. That's like, that's the last thing I was thinking it was. I was six years old again. I want to fly on that thing, just like you saw in the movies, man. Marc Gutman 50:23 Well, thank you for sharing that. And I am just so sad. I'm so sad that like I like you know, didn't didn't have the opportunity. Mike Arzt 50:28 I think I alluded with the other question if you get into it, but we'll see if he'll tell that one. If he won't I have pictures. I don't think Cory holds back on much. There's I think one of our favorite ones was the most you talk about, like snowboarding or skiing, like overshooting the landing. Ian foreman and Mark Gallup and I were all heading over to corys house in Oslo to have dinner and he told us just to stop and pick up sushi on the way at Alex sushi, which is like, it's the Nobu of Oslo. So really good, stupid expensive, like you probably buy a small house in Kansas for what dinner costs, right. So in the snowboarding terms, if it had been a 60 foot tabletop, I'd say Cory overshot the landing on the order by 120 feet, but maybe he can tell that story of I still kind of wonder what happened to all that sushi. Hopefully he fed the entire neighborhood. I think Cory might have taught me about the Canadian Caesar and Crown Royal, like those are two very big staple still in my life. I think a lot of that resulted from the same trip that a game we created called trail ball was launched. I remember our bar tab at the end of that week at chatter Creek. I still have that also. But the line items are something like 196 crown Royals, like 126 Caesars, more Coconino than like he could have floated a small tugboat and the amount of coconuts we went through. But that was an epic trip that a lot of learning and creativity came out of and even some good photos. This thing with Cory Cory some pretty put up put together for he's like one of those guys that could actually probably run for political office He's a dark horse. Cory Bayers 52:35 Yeah, you know, I was I always struggle with the sushi orders, you know, and I got better in my old age, but I always just struggled quantity. And these guys are coming over and they're hungry, and I don't want them to starve. So I went to the restaurant during the day. I said, Look, do you guys deliver? I'm not living that far. But I like to place an order and do you deliver? And they're like, no, sorry, we don't deliver. I'm like, Okay, well, I'm gonna order now. Okay, now and my buddies will come by a taxi. They'll pick it up, and they're gonna bring it to my house. No problem. And I still remember Mike, when I opened the doors, Hammond gallop and Ian. And they're holding the sushi. It literally looked like a pallet of it. And they're all smiling and laughing and I'm like, what's wrong? They go, Well, we got a message from the owner of the restaurant. I'm like, Oh, geez, would I do my card bounce? Like what happened? He goes, No. His message to you is here's the number you should call. We'll tell you what is it you ordered? Like it's an for an army we will deliver anywhere for you. And here's my personal number. So I kind of overshot the landing. I think it was something like I don't know. $4,000 to sushi for four people. But it was Yeah. My wife still reminds me that to this day, whenever I order sushi, I get the look. So yeah, I really overshot the landing. I get the look. Yeah, even my kids, even my kids know the story and they give me the look too. Marc Gutman 53:58 It's serving you well, you know, you're still telling that story today. So, has there ever been a moment like at Patagonia or any time during your career where you just felt like, like scared or like, you know, something wasn't gonna work out the way you had hoped? Cory Bayers 54:16 Oh, yeah, we did a week is it? Yeah, I mean, shit. A lot of times. Yeah. Because, you know, whatever you as marketers, or as creatives, you know, whatever you're unleashing, kind of wait for a reaction. Sometimes there's some stuff you can put out there and go, ooh, boy, this is gonna be interesting how this one's received. And sometimes it's received well, and sometimes it's not or Yeah, there's always an element of, of risk or uncertainty. I mean, you do what you can you work through it. You work with your teams, and then but once it's into the big wide open, yeah, there's an element on a lot of campaigns or a lot of things that I've put out over the years that you're like, Okay, how's it gonna be received and yet a feeling doesn't go way, I think it's a good feeling. Marc Gutman 55:02 Yeah. And so kind of in that same kind of milk, like, what are you struggling with most right now? Cory Bayers 55:08 Uh, right now struggling? Oh, let's see, bro, can I say the election? Marc Gutman 55:16 You can say anything you want, yeah. Cory Bayers 55:19 Yeah, just, you know, electing climate, climate leaders, people are gonna care for this planet, you know, truth, trying to implement some government change and, and that's something that we're very passionate about. And yeah, the environment. So that's, that's that's a big thing right now and obviously we're a couple weeks away from Election Day and hoping that we can as a community elect climate leaders that are going to help protect and you know, keep these lands safe so we can we can continue to enjoy them and our children and grandchildren and everyone can enjoy them. So yeah, that's that's the biggest thing on my mind right now. Marc Gutman 55:58 Yeah. And you mentioned that you really enjoy coaching and that you enjoy mentoring that next generation of marketers and creatives. With that in mind, like, what's one piece of advice that you'd give them? Cory Bayers 56:10 Oh, this is like the the letter back to yourself when you're 18, or something like that? Kind of, I always think, or I think about that sometimes, like, what could I tell myself, or someone starting out? And I would get and say, You know what, don't don't worry about being perfect. Like Don't, don't chase perfection, just go and do it and try it and figure it out. Don't be Don't be too concerned about how how you look or let ego get in the way just just dive in and figure stuff out. There's going to be great moments, it's gonna be hard moments. That doesn't change that just goes with you. But yeah, don't be apprehensive and don't worry about perfection. Just just kind of dive in and be okay with it. And don't let Don't let your ego rule you. Marc Gutman 57:02 What's one of your favorite memories of Cory Mike Arzt 57:05 I was thinking about this driving in today. And there's so money, some good memories. But uh, I think an awesome one was we're at we're an Aspen for the X Games. And, you know, you were watching all that athletes compete. And it's just such a great weekend, you're surrounded by all your industry friends, you're in Aspen, which is awesome just on its own. But it was just hammering snow. And I believe we were supposed to fly out of Aspen to go directly to the SI trade show in Vegas. And I think the flight got canceled. And then we just quickly made the decision that it just wasn't worth like sitting at the airport, probably getting get canceled again, or whatever. So we just stayed. And that Monday when pretty much the circus of the X Games cleared out of town. We went to Highlands and height islands bowl and had a I don't know, it must have been a two or three foot deep powder day. And it's just that feeling of you just had this great weekend. But it was chaos. And then the next thing we end it with just just us hiking the bowl and just smashing some serious pow. And then we got in the rental car, drove straight to Vegas, and checked into the hotel still in our snowboard gear. And I think we ended up getting in like half a day later than we would have. But getting that that kind of bonus day with that. sharing it with friends and getting powder like that. I mean, that's really takes it right back to why we all got into this whole thing. Marc Gutman 58:41 In addition to the question that you asked earlier, is there something else that you've always wanted to know, from Cory that maybe there's been like this mystery of this thing outstanding that either professionally or personally, you wanted to ask him and know the answer to? Mike Arzt 58:58 I don't know. There's so much Luckily, we've had some good time to sit down together. And luckily a couple weeks ago, I ended up out in California and got to stop in and spend a night at Cory's new place and kind of you know, just see the family. I think it's been several years everyone was so so grown up his oldest is in college. I mean, it's crazy. I like last time I saw them they were kids. This time they were adults and and just cool to see him settled into the whole new Patagonia thing, but I don't know I think I think what's interesting, so interesting to me is that he was able to move through a couple different great companies, but those also required international moves with a family. And I think that would probably stop other people from taking on that challenge. And yes, I don't know if I if I had some one question. I'd probably be like the mindset of making big decisions like that with a family and trying to To figure out what the right move is. Marc Gutman 1:00:02 Make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS, so you'll never miss an episode. I like big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can't deny.

BGBS 049: Chris Do | The Futur | Type Is Life Chris Do is the founder of two seven-figure businesses, the first being Blind, an Emmy Award-winning motion design studio with over $80 million in total billings. The second is The Futur, an online education company whose mission is to teach 1 billion people (yes billion!) how to make a living doing what they love.  We immerse ourselves in Chris's design journey, from picking skateboards based off of their hypnotic decks, to passionately combing through the same comic books over and over again, to even trying an early hand at editing by manually fixing his grades. Chris is a great storyteller with a vast expanse of knowledge to share, and he worked tirelessly to get here. To become the master that he is today, he had to remove his defenses and submit to his teachers' harsh criticisms. By letting go of his ego, he was able to absorb as much as possible and ultimately, get ahead. We are moved by this act and begin to ask, how can we all remove our own resistance to become better students of life? In this episode, you'll learn... Chris was born in Saigon, Vietnam, but his family fled to Kansas City, Missouri in 1975 when the country fell to communism Moving every 1.5 years was dreadful for Chris because he felt like he couldn't establish long term relationships and he had to stand up to bullies often Chris found a home in skateboarding because of the mesmerizing graphics and found it to be a “gateway drug” into graphic design. He even picked his decks based off of design, rather than its manufacturing Before entering the first grade, Chris's uncles taught him and his brother multiplication and division. This was just the beginning of his advanced mind. Since then, Chris coasted through school by being the “lazy smart guy” When Chris didn't have many comic books, he would feed his obsession by studying the ones he had front to back, over and over, savoring even the advertisements and smell Chris's early exposure to “Photoshop retouching” was occasionally using his mom's drafting tool to electrically erase his printed grades and using a blunt pencil to rewrite more admissible ones As an ArtCenter student, Chris had many sleepless nights with many unhealthy meals (which he doesn't encourage), but he learned the power of removing his ego to intake knowledge and get ahead Mastering typography is training your eye to see connections and experimenting repeatedly within a controlled environment. It is a wonderful discipline that not many can figure out Chris named his company Blind because it is an ironic name for a visual communication company. It was also inspired by Blind Skateboards and its punk spirit When Chris got word that his company won an Emmy, he was terrified to learn that he had to prepare a speech. Lucky for him, the show was running long and there ended up being no time for him to speak With his platform at The Futur, Chris shares all the information he has, which in some cases has earned him some enemies, but overall, his generosity has earned him many fervent students around the world with a lot of gratitude Resources LinkedIn: Chris Do Facebook: Chris Do Instagram: @thechrisdo YouTube: The Futur Website: thefutur.com Quotes [32:23] My one key advantage that I had over other people was, at this point in my life, I had already developed this mindset of objectivity... I just submitted. I removed whatever little parts of ego I had and I tried to absorb as much as what they had to say as possible. [34:07] I was trying to win a game with myself. Like, “Can you push past that limit, that threshold? How bad do you want it? How far are you willing to go to get what it is that you want?” [39:12] Type is life man. Type is thinking made visible. If you can learn how to design with type, you can learn how to design everything. [59:03] If you're able to help another human being, and if you're able to do this at scale, and you're able to reach so many people, I gotta tell you, that's that kind of joy that no money can buy. Podcast Transcript Chris Do 0:02 She submitted it. And to my surprise, they're like you win. You get one. And I was thinking this is excellent, until they send you this email saying, you need to prepare your acceptance speech. And it can only be, I think, 30 seconds long or 45 seconds max, they'll cut you off. And you need to be short. You need to be pithy say something that will make the editors keep you in Edit when this thing airs. And I was struggling with this, because this is in 2010. I had not done a lot of public speaking at that point, and definitely never even thought of doing a YouTube video at that point. So this kind of wrecked me. Like I can be there on stage. I can grab this statue, I can hold it up. But I don't want to say anything because I'm still not comfortable speaking. Marc Gutman 0:50 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Backstory podcast, we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Back story, how a shy kid from Vietnam found art and built to seven figure businesses doing what he loves. And today we are talking with Chris Do. If you're a designer, or designer, let's say adjacent chances are you know of Chris Do. He has nearly half a million followers on Instagram. Yeah, like almost 500,000. The YouTube channel hosted by his company, the future has just under a million. Both of these numbers are at the time of recording this. And I have no doubt if you're listening to this episode. After this time, the numbers will even be much higher. And before we get into my conversation with Chris, if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate us and review us on iTunes or Spotify, iTunes and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. You know what? Better yet? Please recommend this show to at least one friend you think well like it, friend share at Baby Got Backstory, and don't keep it all to themselves. This spirit of generosity is touched on in today's episode, as you'll soon hear, so go out and share the show with someone you love. Today's guest is Chris Do. He's the founder of two seven figure businesses, the first of which is Blind, an Emmy Award winning motion design studio with over 80 million in total billings. The second is The Futur spelled sort of funny with no e at the end, an online education company whose mission is to teach 1 billion people how to make a living doing what they love. He is also the author of a pocketful of dough, which sums up more than two decades of entrepreneurship, teaching, creativity, coaching and learning scaled down in a potent bite sized lessons that can be ingested quickly. I'm reading it right now. I'm quite enjoying it. 1 billion people. That is a big vision. And I want to be completely transparent. I am a crypto fan. Right around the dawn of the pandemic. I was chatting with my friend Greg about business models and something or other. And he said, Do you know Chris Do, he's doing something really interesting with The Futur. And after we work through my confusion that The Futur was the name of the company, and not some measure of time, I strolled over to The Futur via the internet. And it was like I climbed a mountain. And as I got to the peak, my aperture opened up to a view I had never seen before. There were all these creatives, mainly designers, but also what I'm now calling designer adjacent professions, brand strategists, photographers, filmmakers, youtubers instagramers. My mind was blown. I did a little more snooping. But it didn't take long before I joined his community. And it's one of the best decisions I've made in my business. So I love me some Christo and even though I'm a part of his community, I really don't know Chris. I don't know much about him. And today, we're going to change all that. We're all going to get to know Chris Do in this. This is his story. Hey, Chris, so thanks for joining us today on the podcast and I want to get right into it. What is The Futur? Chris Do 4:58 What is the future? It's the thing that happens after today. But if you're talking about my future, The Futur that we've created, it's an online education platform where we're where we have this big, hairy audacious goal to teach 1 billion people on planet Earth, how to make a living doing what they love, without selling their soul. Marc Gutman 5:16 That is a big, audacious goal. And I think that you're well on your way. Now, you know, now that we know kind of where we're, we're at, I kind of want to know how this all started. And, and I've heard you talk a lot about invites, not like real specifics, and kind of like bite sized pieces about how you grew up and, and what it was like as a young child. And so like, Where did you grow up? And what was life like for young Chris Do? Chris Do 5:45 Hmm. I was actually born in Saigon, Vietnam, and my family as well as many other families fled when it fell to communism in in 1975. So we arrived here in the United States in Kansas City, Missouri, where we live there for a couple of years, and we're ultimately moved to San Jose, California. That's kind of where I grew up. I grew up in the valley around computers, but not a lot of inspiration. I know. I hope I'm not offending a whole lot of people. It's not like a cultural center. And so I grew up like, like a lot of kids in the malleus, skateboarded. I, I sketched I drew, I made things and I was mostly kind of a shy, introverted kid. Marc Gutman 6:26 Yeah. And what did your parents do for a living? Chris Do 6:29 Both my parents worked in the tech space. My dad was an engineer for a company called Applied Materials. I think they they do semiconductor kind of things. Beyond that, I don't know. My mom worked as the designer drafter for IBM until she ultimately retired. Marc Gutman 6:46 Oh, this is all of a sudden making a lot of a lot of sense that Chris Do I know today, combination of the two Actually, yeah, so you know, I've heard you allude to this a little bit. But I have to imagine it, it probably wasn't all that easy. Growing up as a Vietnamese immigrant in Northern California, especially, you know, coming, you know, on the heels of the fall of Saigon. I mean, there was probably some, some anti Vietnam senate sentiment. I mean, was it like that, or, you know, was it difficult? Chris Do 7:17 It was difficult for me, and I don't think I'm sharing anything that's unique. I don't know if there was a specific anti Vietnamese sentiment, it was just mostly like, Hey, you look a lot different than us. You're an Asian kid. And most people just assumed I was Chinese. And that was the go to racial default box that I fit into. And it I didn't help myself, because I'm a skinny kid. I'm not athletic. I like weird things I like to draw. And I mostly keep to myself, I like comic books, and things like Dungeons and Dragons. And so naturally, the stronger bigger kids they want, they just want to pick on you. Or if you're in the streets, they just want to establish the pecking order. And it's a world that didn't fit into for a very long time. I'm not sure I ever actually fit into that world. And I was bullied. But luckily, I have an older brother. He's four years older than me, he told me that bullies just like an easy target. So if you stand up for yourself, even if you get your butt whooped, they'll leave you alone, because they just want to move on to another target. They're trying to establish their kind of artfulness, if you will. They're their dominance over you. So you stand up for yourself. And so I gotta tell you, I mean, it's almost like literally, like I said, I transferred from one school to the other. Because as a kid, we moved a lot, my parents got increasingly higher paying jobs and ultimately landed where they're at. So we moved, I calculated almost every year and a half. So it was dreadful for me, because it meant I couldn't put my roots down, didn't establish long term relationships. And this is haunted me to this day. And when I would go to new school, and it wasn't like they, they timed it perfectly, like at the beginning of the school year was kind of school year it started. And I can tell you almost within a day or two, somebody's gonna pick a fight with me. And I was gonna get into a fight. I already knew it. I was prepared for it. Like mentally, not physically, but mentally prepared for it. Marc Gutman 9:06 I was gonna ask, like, like, did you learn to fight or like I and I have to like, I mean, look, I went to a school where everyone got picked on for everything. I mean, you know, I had a last name like Gutman, and I had a you know, a father who's Jewish. And that was enough so I can't even imagine, you know, Vietnamese and and how that was and how that went down. I could, you know, probably picture some kids doing some Bruce Lee moves are something that taught you or whatever, right? Like, you ever get good at fighting or like, was it something that like you just had to do? Chris Do 9:37 It just, you had to do it. And you don't have to get that good. All you have to do is just say like, I'm not going to take this Let's fight and and then they're thrown for a loop. Right? And I remember I'm not looking to pick a fight. I don't want to get into a fight with people but they did things that would draw you I think into a fight like I remember one time on the playground. And this was just a couple days into school. My my brother There was only a year younger was in a grade below me, obviously. And he was playing around. And the next thing I know somebody had kicked his lunch bag and his entire juice in his sandwich was everywhere. And they did that just like a soccer kick. It wasn't I accidentally stepped on it. And then I had to confront these guys, because, look, here's the thing. I don't get along with my brother, at least back then I didn't get along with him. But he's family and you don't get to pick on family. So my blood was boiling. I'm like, What do you guys doing? And they're like, it was an accident. Like, yeah, I said, Bs, that's not an accident. And then what are you gonna do about it? And then pushing happens? And it's like, okay, we're gonna get in fight after school. And that's exactly kind of how it played out. Marc Gutman 10:38 Yeah. And you know, I don't know if it's just kind of my general who I attract on the podcast. But there seems to be this running theme of guests on the podcast that have, they didn't fit in other places. But the one place they did fit in was escape culture like this. There was something about skateboarding. I mean, that's how I grew up. I mean, that's what ultimately drew me to California had these images of Thrasher, and kids and Venice Beach and the Dogtown guys and everything I was like, and then I got there. And I was like, it doesn't quite look like that. You know, what was it about skateboarding that resonated with you? And that was where you found a place to find yourself? Chris Do 11:17 Yeah, this the answer to that question is gonna sound horrible. But I was mostly drawn to skateboarding because the graphics on the skateboards just mesmerized me they were hypnotic. I remember going to town and country like inside the mall, I think it's called time and country, or something like that, or one of these skate lifestyle surf shops. I would go in there and I was like, Oh, this is cool. I look at the T shirts. I look at the back display wall behind the counter and had all the boards laid out there. From visions streetwear the psycho stick man, Mark Gonzalez, his skateboard, Christian Hosoi? The Hammerhead with him just doing the iconic move they was doing. I was just kind of mesmerized by these things. And I see that people are skating as a solitary endeavor. And I just wanted to learn one of my friends had a cheap skateboard and he was saying like, Yeah, let's go learn how to ollie together. And we would just practice on the grass on the go. I think I can do this. And it took him weeks. When I just stepped on it. It's like a worked on it took me a couple of days. I'm like, Oh, this can be kind of fun. And I think for a lot of artists and illustrators and graphic designers, skateboarding is a gateway drug into graphic design. So I was right there with you. Thrasher magazines, Thrasher magazine Transworld skateboarding magazine. And just kind of living vicariously through these images and words, I think is Craig stesiak, who started to, to kind of create this idea and the culture. And he he's credited for helping to at least create part of this skateboarding subculture here in Santa Monica, Venice. And so yeah, I was drawn into that. Marc Gutman 12:46 Did you have or do you remember a favorite deck design that that you remember today? Chris Do 12:52 Oh, yeah. And and so I made the mistake of picking decks based on their design, not necessarily the manufacturing or the shape of it. And I figured that out later on. But I loved almost every design from Santa Cruz. The the choreo Brian, Grim Reaper with a fireball that that thing was awesome Rob Ross cop with the crazy face and the hand breaking through the target. I also loved a bunch of designs that came from from Powell Peralta. So these are like the big skateboarding companies and they, they can afford to hire like trained artists to work on their their design. So Steve Cavalera, the dragon amazing Mike McGill with the skull on the rattlesnake coming out of his head and Tony Hawk skull, skull Hawk or skull bones or whatever that's called. That thing was awesome. Marc Gutman 13:38 Yeah, so awesome. I made the same mistake to I think at a vision hippie stick at one point. And that was not the right word. But I like the way it looked. And I think my all time favorite was the Lance Mountain. But I also think, because I thought Lance Mountain was like such a cool name. I was like, Yeah, I was like, I'm Marc Gutman. I want to be Lance Mountain like that's. Chris Do 13:56 That is a very cool name. Marc Gutman 13:57 Yeah. Right. Like, like, Who doesn't want to be Lance Mountain? So, you know, you're growing up, like, were you a good student. Chris Do 14:03 I was above average student. I think I graduate high school with a 3.8 something GPA. And I think I would have gotten a 4.0 GPA, but I just didn't really care about school and school came relatively easy. And something to kind of keep in mind like, my both my parents have incredibly large family siblings, you know, like my dad has, I think 10 brothers and my mom, 10 brothers and sisters, my mom has an equal amount on her side. So there were no shortage of uncles and aunts around us all the time. Especially in the beginning. It's like a very typical immigrant thing, right? You live in a relatively small house with and it's packed with all your relatives. And so I would hang out with them. I lost my train of thought here. What was your question again? Marc Gutman 14:46 Were you a good student? Chris Do 14:48 Oh, yeah. Yeah, here we go. So sorry about that. So a little brain fart there. So we I had uncles basically my dad's younger brother, brothers who who didn't have a lot to do because they're like either going to college or something like That, and they would make sure we learned all our arithmetic and multiplication and division. And this is before I even went to first grade. So for a long while I was like coasting like God, America, so easy. Because back at home, it was brutal. It's like you're gonna get whipped with a chopstick or ruler if you didn't memorize these things. And so when they're doing basic addition, I was like, already into, like long division here, like what is the holdup, and I remember in a couple instances, I think was between third and fourth grade, where because of budget cuts, I went to public high school, by the way, because of budget cuts, they smashed two grades together. And so while we were teaching the third graders, they would switch every other day or something like that the fourth graders were kind of learning, I was just sitting there listening, and I was just learning so much from the fourth graders, and applying right to third grade. So for a long time, I just coasted I'm pretty late. I'm a pretty lazy smart guy. And so I kind of just figured out like the bare minimum like I could, I could learn the vocabulary words or the spelling words, just the night before and just aced the test, it wasn't a big deal. I just never really applied myself. Marc Gutman 16:08 And so in through the description and kind of relive of your academic time, you're talking all about kind of core academic courses, like what word is like design and drawing? And where's that residing in your life? Is that like a side thing? Is that a secret thing? Chris Do 16:26 It's a side thing. It's not so secret, but I, I just would pour over these comic books. And I didn't have a lot of them in the beginning. And so I would just like go over them again and again. So after you read the story, you'd reread it. And then you start looking at the ads and studying every little ads about sea monkeys and growing muscles and standing up to the bully, I would just get into all of that there was nothing that I didn't love from cover to cover, including the smell of the pulp the paper and just had this sweet smell to it. And I love that and I would draw on I would make my own comics. Not very good. But I would sit there and practice. And then like many people, I discovered the book How to draw comics the Marvel way. And it was just so mind blowing, just trying to draw, like the way he was instructed in the book. And so this is what I was doing. But in terms of like public high school, or public schools, there aren't a lot of art programs. But every time there was an elective, I chose something that was going to allow me to work with my hands. So in junior high was woodshop. And then in high school, I took metals and I took commercial art, as it was called back then and yearbook. And so wherever I could apply this creativity because I wasn't going to take another foreign language, I was not going to be my thing. Marc Gutman 17:38 Yeah, and but what did your parents feel about this? I mean, what did they want for you? And what did they think about those classes? Were they encouraging you to do more of these hands on Creative classes? Or was that just kind of like something you did? I mean, what was their hope for you at this time? Or even as girl growing up? I mean, I've heard you kind of allude to like there's this tough Asian parent mentality, like, what was there? What would they want for you? Chris Do 18:03 Yeah, so this is kind of weird, because my mom and dad are the older of their siblings, like my dad is the oldest male, I think my mom's a second oldest female. And they're very different than their siblings who are very, very strict with our kids. My parents on the other hand, or setting benchmarks for us to hit, but they didn't really grind us on these things. My dad pretty much just put the fear of God in us in that we can never get a c a b was barely acceptable. And those those tropes about Asian parents, those parts were true, but they weren't very hands on, they had really no idea what kind of classes I was taking, they're just looking at the grades do these grades line up or not. And I remember one time, I won't admit this, now, I had to forge my grades because I knew I didn't do well in a particular class. And I got to see and I knew that I had been coming home with a C with my dad was just going to be the end of it, I thought it was gonna get kicked out of the house. So every day I would check the mail to kind of find it. And back then they kind of sent these things out and it was like carbon paper on one side, you tear it open. And so I got my grant, I intercepted it, thank god ripped it open and saw that I got to see. And so my mom has all these drafting tools like she would initially do it with traditional tools. And then later on using CAD, but in the early days, she had this massive thing was like electric eraser. I don't know if you ever seen one of these things, you actually plugged it in, and I would sit there and just erase that see away. And then I was take this pre Photoshop everybody out, take a really blunt pencil just to get it to the right stroke with and then I would find on the front of the grade A letter B and I would just carefully trace and change that C to be using the carbon paper smudge a little bit and kind of just disguise it. Thank goodness my early days as a Photoshop retouch or work because my dad wasn't any the wiser, but they didn't really care what kind of classes I took. They just wanted us to be in a good university. Your college afterwards and then pursue something that's safe, more traditional doctor, lawyer, lawyer, accountant, something like that. Marc Gutman 20:08 Yeah. So it was that kind of the moment you had your first glimpse or appreciation of typography. Were you like, wow, this is typography can really do something here. Chris Do 20:17 Now, because I'm dense. I did, I'm like, Oh, this is good. Like, this could be a service, I was thinking more of an entrepreneur and less like an artist, like, I wonder if other kids need me to change their thing for them. But that was that. I, I dabbled in design and art and made things and I excelled at them where I applied myself. But I did not put myself in that mental space that this is something I can do for the rest of my life. Because I also believe what my parents led me to believe, which is a career in design in the arts is one of suffering and starving. It's not a realistic career path. I dreamt of being a comic book artist. But I was just like, this is not real, like, you know how somebody is resolved. It's like, no matter what obstacles are in front of them, they're going to push past them for me. One person could walk up and say, that's a crazy idea. You never want to be a comic book artist. And I would say, Yeah, you're right. And throw that dream away. So the rest did my resolve in terms of become wanting to become a creative person. That didn't happen until later. Marc Gutman 21:19 Yeah. And so as you get through high school with your 3.8, and you look to the future, where did you go? I mean, did you head on a path to become a lawyer, Doctor, accountant. Chris Do 21:33 I tried, I applied to UC San Diego, UCLA, and Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. And I initially thought I was gonna apply through the regular program, but I was brainstorming with my older brother. And he said, "If you could extend your like art and design, apply there, get in and change your major." So I was trying the old backdoor technique. And I was really surprised when they sent me a follow up and said, We need to see your portfolio. And I was like portfolio. I have a portfolio. I got these things I did in commercial art class. So I had to go back to my teacher, Mike davita. And said, Mike, Mr. davita, Can Can I have some of these pieces that you held back? And he goes, What do you done? I said, I'm gonna apply for an art program. He's like, Huh, okay. So I put it together. I wrote up a pretty lame essay, I'm not a writer. And of course, I got rejected out of every one of those schools. And I think in some ways, my parents were super disappointed. They didn't say anything to me. But you could just tell. It's like, I didn't get into any of the schools. And my mom was like, yeah, of course not. Because you never apply yourself. But coincidentally, between my junior and senior year, I got it. I think it was actually my senior year in high school, I got a job working at a silk screening place. And and this was just pure serendipity. My younger brother's wrestling Coach Rudy had said, Hey, I think your brother draws right. And and he's like, yeah, you might want to go and talk to my friend Brad, who does all this silkscreening stuff. And the reason why he knew I drew is because friends would ask me to do illustrations for the school newspaper. And that's kind of how people knew I drew and I met with Brad who owned a silk screening place. And he looked at my portfolio, random art pieces, you know, the same ones that got me rejected out of school, and a couple of drawings is I get you want to do this job. I'm like, Sure. So is that you're hired sit down, and he hired me on the spot. And he said, I'm gonna pay you 18 bucks an hour. And for context, their minimum wage back then I think, was 350 or 370 $5 an hour. So I'm making four to five times as much as I used to make and I was thinking, what do I need school for? This is freaking awesome. I can just do this man's work. So basically, he made me an inker. So he had all these pencil drawings. And he would say, Okay, here's acetate. Here's our video graph pen, just ink these things. And he showed me how to do it. Of course, he's the master of doing this. And so I'm doing it and he goes home, right. So I'm working on it. It's like, my hands are all shaky. The ink is bleeding everywhere. I'm like, Oh, this is a nightmare. And I worked on it. I think three, four hours later, I finished it. And next morning, he comes in, I talked to him. I'm like, this is okay. He goes, Yeah, this is pretty good. And he looked past the fact that it wasn't perfect. And then he asked me like, how long do you work on it? I did the typical design thing. I pulled my hours just because I was embarrassed. It took me so long. So instead of saying four hours on my dad took me two and a half hours. Is that great? I got more work for you. Marc Gutman 24:28 Awesome. Awesome. So your your screening, shirt shirts and whatever kind of material and working for real money. 18 bucks an hour just crushing. Yeah, yeah. And you know, the world's your oyster. And so like, what happens? Like how do you end up leaving that job? And where do you go next? Chris Do 24:46 Yeah, so as I'm doing that, and I didn't think that this was going to be a serious career. For me. I'm thinking the man's drawings right. I'm not even that good at it. And then I quickly realize the play here isn't to be the guys employee. The play is to be his partner. So I'd ask them, Hey, Brad, how much do you charge do these things like when people give you an assignment, he's like, Oh, this is what it is, I started doing the math in my head. So I thought, Hey, I'll go out, and I'll sell the work. And I'll do the design myself. And Brad and his team will print the shirts, and I'll make the money in between. So I'd even work for him for that long, because I was like, ah, I can hustle. And I can do these things. So I was just working there part time anyways. And so this worked out just fine for me. And I learned firsthand how not to run a business. So I sold shirts. And I didn't calculate in there, my labor. So if I sold the shirts for 12 bucks, I thought I got him printed for like five and a quarter. And I was going to make the difference between 12 and five and a quarter. So it's like 675, or something like that. But there was a lot of selling, designing, making going back and forth, and assuming all the risk. So at that point, somehow my mom's like, your like, your bank account is like, nothing. And so I had to borrow money from her to pay off supplies or whatever it else those buy at a time. So my mom was looking at me like you're terrible business person. And at that point I was. Marc Gutman 26:12 And so you're not? Well, you're figuring things out, right? you're figuring out, figuring it out, you're learning and that's how we learn. Maybe we kind of make mistakes, or we learned the hard way. But at some point, you kind of move on and you decide you got to go back to school. Chris Do 26:27 Yeah, I have to go to school. So high school finishes up. And it's summertime. And my my brothers asked me, Hey, you want to come in? live with me in San Diego. At that point, he had just finished his his computer science degree in, in UC San Diego. So he's like, come live with me, I'm gonna prepare for grad school. You can stay with me for the year while I work on this, as you can see is great. And my brother is a very special human being that he's always looked after me, even when I didn't deserve it. Even when I didn't know this is the thing that I wanted to do. He isn't it. His name's Arthur, Marc Gutman 27:03 Just wanna give a shout out to Arthur, he's always taking care of you. Want to make sure he has his proper, his proper credit. Chris Do 27:08 He's like my second father. You know, like my dad was busy but didn't understand the culture. He didn't want to help. He didn't grow period is another system here. And so I go and live with my brother. And this is the time for me to go to community college and to actually make a real effort to get into art school. I already decided at that point in time, I'm going to go to artcenter. It's what Brad, the silkscreen guy told me to do. He's a go to artcenter. I'm like, okay, so I don't know anything about artcenter, except for its name. So I'm going to San Diego City College. And I'm taking commercial art classes. I'm looking through the catalog of these two schools, these two community colleges, Mesa College and San Diego city. And San Diego city offered graphic design classes, I'm thinking this is it, I'm going to go do this. And that's where I kind of gets set on a path. It took me a little while to actually become passionate about design. And eventually I found it and and that's how I started on my career. I finished my portfolio got into artcenter. And then that was the beginning of everything. Marc Gutman 28:08 Yeah. And, you know, I admit, I might have shared this with you before, but my wife went to ArtCenter. We lived in Southern California for a while. And like I hadn't really heard of it. You know, I didn't know what it was, she definitely did. And I remember the first time I went over to that, that school, that campus, I walked in some of the buildings and there was like, just like rows and rows of like of like art in drawing and material. And it's very well known for being an auto design program. And you'd see clay mock ups of all these concept cars. And like there was something I just like this. This was a magical portal into this world that I had really not seen. And I loved it. You know, like actually one of my very first jobs I worked at Imagineering, and this like, kind of skunk works in the valley. And it had that same kind of feeling an allure like that there were things being made, and he didn't really know how or why but it was just, I just thought it was so so cool. Like what was what was your experience when you first kind of got there and and saw ArtCenter? And do you know, did you have the same kind of reaction? Chris Do 29:09 Yeah, I did. And I I remember it very clearly. It's a steel and glass building. It's a long rectangular, it's referred to as the bridge because it it covers the this kind of like gap where you drive underneath it. And it's designed for Craig Ellwood, I think, and it's Stark, it's blocked minimal. And you walk in there and everything from the concrete, the polished concrete floors to the black and white interior. You feel like you're an art school. You really, really feel it. As soon as you walk in and you see the gallery and you see all this work from all the different majors from photography, fine art, illustration, graphic design in transportation design, which, which you reference, it's what they're known for. You get the sense like, I'm going to be a designer. I'm a creative human being just by stepping in the building and being a part of the program. So I remember when I got in I stepped into my very first class, I just said to myself, like very quietly, like I made it immediate in. And it was kind of like an accomplishment in itself. And I was proud to like, know that I'm an artcenter student. I'm different than everybody else. Marc Gutman 30:15 Yeah. And were you like an instant star? Were you start? Like, did you just take off the top of your class? Or did it take some time to figure some things out? Chris Do 30:23 It took a little bit for me to figure it out. But now when I say a little bit, I mean, it took me a couple of classes, like, like two or three weeks into, like, I'm starting to get my bearings here, because we're all coming in from different sources. And I think back then the average age was 27 years old. And here I am a 19 year old kid. So I'm just fresh out of high school one year in community college, I'm here. And I'm like, oh, okay, everybody's got more experience that and you can tell because it's a very expensive school that everybody's affluent, I'm probably like one of the poor kids going there, relatively speaking. Okay, like, we're, we're working class folks, you know, where were people driving in their fancy cars, like, okay, so I'm here. And I wouldn't describe myself as a star. But I stood out, because I just worked like an animal. I know that people talk about this all the time. And they're like, No, but I really, really worked like an animal. So I'll tell you kind of how a typical day would work for me. You go to school in the morning, and you're there all day, computer labs, a library, the school closes, and you go home, eat dinner. So maybe that's like 10 o'clock. So I just grabbed and this is a horrible diet, my diet of jack in the box, grab a burger. And then I would go to my room. And I was living in Pasadena at that time. And I would just work on my drafting table, doing drawings, or whatever it is I was doing. And about one o'clock in the morning, I was really tired at that point. The burger probably helped me at all. And sound like Okay, I gotta go to sleep. And I was just set my alarm for three hours and get right back up. And just keep working up into the manor. Like, I would timeouts like, I need 30 minutes to shower and put on my clothes. And it takes me another 20 minutes to get to school and park and get to class, I would just time it like that I would just work into the very last possible minute. And I was just repeating this pattern. many nights, I didn't even sleep, and especially during midterms and finals. So I hustled and I worked really hard. And it started to show because I was starting to get it. And my one one key advantage that I had over other people was, at this point in my life, I had already developed this mindset of objectivity. Like Where were the teachers are handing out some pretty harsh crits people were becoming very defensive. And I could see they're like resisting the whole time. And I was like thinking to myself, why are you resisting? Aren't you here to learn from this instructor and master at their craft. So I just submitted, I removed whatever little parts of ego I had. And I try to absorb as much as what they had to say as possible. And if they said, This is too big, okay, I'll make it smaller. This is not working. Okay, why, and then I'll just keep working on it. And then I could see pretty quickly by week three, four or five, oh, something's happening here. They're starting to fall behind or I'm moving ahead. And that felt really good. There's nothing like weaning or achieving something to build your own self confidence. And it just began to snowball, I think in the beginning was more like a snowflake. But by the time I was done with third term, I felt like this avalanche of energy and confidence. Marc Gutman 33:31 And was that superpower and I call it a superpower. I mean, you know, you play that game. Everyone's like, if you could have a superpower, where would it be mine would be to not sleep or to get by on three hours of sleep because I cannot do that. So hearing you say that is like, like, I'm like involved? now. Is that something that carries on today? I mean, is that just always been your superpower? Chris Do 33:51 I think so. I'm almost 50 years old now. So nights without sleep take a longer time to recover. And I don't recommend this to anybody. But I think it was just for me. Like it was a game and it was competition. And it was like trying to to win a game with myself. like can you push past that limit that threshold how bad you want it, how far you willing to go to get it what it is that you want. And that would do that? Now I want to say this and there's a very healthy asterisk to this. There's a big caveat to this is that I remember certain periods in school when I had not slept for days. And I'm going like almost crazy. I'm losing I'm literally hallucinating while I'm driving. I remember one time driving down the street to school at night coming back from dinner or something like that, that I saw the trees the canopy of trees or reach down and I was trying to avoid it with my car and I was like oh my god, I am tripping out. I have woken up and driving on the wrong side of the road. So this is super dangerous. And this is not a badge of honor or courage. I do not want anybody whether you're just starting out, to put yourself in your body or mind through these extended periods of work without sleep, it's dangerous. It's unhealthy. And it's unproductive, period. I had to learn this the hard way. So take it from one workaholic, super crazy, intense guy, that that is not the path forward. Marc Gutman 35:20 That being said, I still want it to be my superpower. But you heard him Do not try that. Don't do that kids. Yes. This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo, or a tagline or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you, when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. While at Arts Center, you're going through and you mentioned that you're getting some momentum, things are starting to happen for you was there there was there a moment or a period where you really started to recognize or identify where you wanted to spend your career a certain type of discipline. Chris Do 36:52 Yeah, I thought I love type. And I excelled at using type. And I knew that whatever job I had had to use a lot of types. I was thinking, editorial design, maybe some kind of packaging or something like that. And, you know, best laid plans go out the window. Because in my senior year, as I'm one semester away from graduating had to decide to take a term off, I was feeling a little burnt out at this point, friend of mine got a job in advertising. And she said, Chris, I need a partner, will you submit your your portfolio so that, that maybe they'll consider hiring you? And I was thinking to myself, and her name is Colleen. And I was thinking to myself, I'm a graphic designer, what is an advertising agency gonna want to do with me? So I put together literally four pieces, four pieces, because nothing else made sense. I put the most conceptual work that I could that was most design driven that could work for for an agency. And to my surprise, I was offered this job. And they knew I was still in school and they hired me anyways. So I'm like, okay, fine, ces la vie, sayonara. I'm gonna take a semester off school. So, I moved to Seattle, and they put me up in a corporate hotel. It was just awesome. It was way better than where I was living. And I was working in that industry. I was like, this is kind of nice. There's expense accounts, nice office spaces. And this is pretty cool. And you're treated like you're an important person. And I like the feeling of this. But ultimately, advertising didn't feel right to me. Because all these skills that I acquired this love for typography, I couldn't use them. Because advertising was like, find the one right image. But that headline somewhere, don't get too tricky with it and put the body copy where people can read it. And those constraints made me feel like I was an engine revving, but I got nowhere to go. So ultimately, after graduation, I discovered this thing that then became known as motion design. And it would allow me to have a lifetime of learning because there's so many different skill sets that you have to acquire to be good at motion design. So I thought, This is fantastic. It's gonna keep me busy. Keep me hungry, keep me curious for a really long time. And it did. Marc Gutman 39:07 So you mentioned type a lot. They're like, what's cool about type? Chris Do 39:12 Type is life man. Type is thinking made visible. Type a few. And if you can learn how to design, what type you can learn how to design everything. It's totally true. So I felt like when I was in typography class with Simon Johnston, he gave me the key to solve any kind of design problem. And it felt so powerful that you talk about superpowers. Imagine having a key that opened every lock in the world. That's how it felt. So I was in love with it, because it was the answer. It was everything. And so all my big breaks in terms of a professional person have come from me having mastery, like soft air quotes here, mastery of typography. It allowed me to get that job. At cold Weber, the advertising agency allowed me to work at epitaph records, because you know, what their image-makers in the world photographers and illustrators, and then their designers and designers, you got to know your type. And type is the thing that pulls it all together in terms of your layout and making it sing, and communicating the message. So every opportunity, even the early motion graphics opportunities came because I knew how to typeset. And then I barely knew how to animate. So I would just send the typeset over to the client, they were like, Yeah, that's good. And then an animated minimally. And I made a ton of money doing that hundreds of thousands of dollars working on commercials, where, literally, I was just typesetting and moving things on X, Y coordinates. And that was it. Marc Gutman 40:41 And so like, what's, what's hard about type like, What don't we see? Chris Do 40:45 Okay, for all you non-typographers out there, type is daunting type of scary. There are too many options and too many possibilities. What typeface what Wait, what point size? How much letting tracking kerning? Do you apply to any of these things? Do these two typefaces look good together. And so I can see that a lot of people they would even tell me, like, I have friends that are illustrators, like, I love everything about design, I just hate type, I just can't figure it out. And type takes a certain kind of discipline, a way of teaching it learning and experimenting with very tightly controlled constraints. And this repetition of explore exploration will lead you to understand how things work. It's training your eye and train your hand or your mind to see things and connections and making things related and learning how to break the rhythm. So it's that work like if you want to be a composer, maybe a concert level pianists. It's like putting in the hours of learning the keys. And, and the things that my two boys practice every single day. It's boring, it's monotonous, it's repetitive, but it's hard to be great at that thing. Unless you put in that kind of work. And most people aren't willing to do that. Marc Gutman 41:59 Did you just feel that? Did you see what happened? Like you just got like, lit up you got like fired up? You started like your body language got all like animated and not everyone can see us as they're listening in the podcast. But I can tell you Chris just like he like he leaned into the camera. And so I can tell that you truly dig type. I love type type his life. Yeah, type his life. And you mean it? That's that's really awesome. Well, in addition to The Futur, that you described, the beginning to show your your kind of best known also for founding the design agency Blind. How did that come about? And like, how did you end up even starting an agency? And, and we can go from there? Chris Do 42:41 Yeah, the origin story of blind is a little tricky. So I'll give you the the briefest version of it in case, there's some other questions you have to ask. I was freelancing in Los Angeles, Hollywood, in particular, doing design, motion design and a little bit of animation. And I got a call out of the blue from our uncle who asked me ever since I can remember, you've always wanted to start a business. And now that you're done with school, is this something you want to do? And I said, Absolutely. He said, so here's the deal. I'm business partner. He develops hotels all over the world. And he's interested in becoming a partner with somebody who wants to start a design firm. So here's what we're gonna do, because we're going to be in Los Angeles. And I want you to meet us at the Westin Bonaventure, which I've never been to up until that point, and I want you to put together a business plan, how much money do you want? What are you willing to do? How are you gonna make the money? And so this is like, early dawn of the internet. So I'm calling my friends, my roommates. Father, who's an investment banker, like, Can you tell me what's in what's required a business plan. This is like old school internet, you just call up a human, right? And he told me and I was just writing in my notepad furiously. Now to get on my computer, I started writing this, this business plan forecasting, first through fifth five years of projections, and just basing out nothing. Like we project will lose money for two and a half years. And then by the third or fourth year, we'll make money and this is what we're thinking. And so put this together. And true to my nature. I hadn't slept, and a meeting there for dinner at the hotel. And I go in there, we meet him. His name is Bob and I'm talking to him and he's and I said, here's the business plan printed out. Here we go. And he takes his finger looks at it just goes through a couple pages. He didn't really look at it. And then he just looks at the bottom line the numbers, right? He's like, okay, and at the end of dinner, he reached into his jacket pocket, pulls out checkbook, once he does paying for dinner via cheque. That's kind of pretty old school. He writes me a check on the spot for $10,000. He says, this is a good-faith gesture. He goes, You know what that means? He's like, we're gonna do business together. Okay, I am like 22 years old. I've just been out of school for like, three, four months here. So it's like, I think September October, graduated in the summer. And my very first encounter with a business investor venture capitalists like a deals done. And we don't even know what the terms are. That's how I started my business basically. And then the place I was working, I said, Guys, I'm wrapping my booking, I'm going to start my own company, I have an opportunity to do this. And I remember my boss, my supervisor at that time, his name is Ian Dawson, who I still know today. He's looking at me like, like God, they make them really cocky at artcenter, don't they? Because the kid is just barely working for us. He turns on a full time job offer from us. And then he starts his own company. And he said to me, he smiled. And he's a great guy. So he smiled and shook my hand says good luck with everything. And I know what he was thinking. Good luck, because I'll see here in a couple of months when you totally fail. 25 years later, still doing the thing? Same thing? Marc Gutman 45:45 Yeah. And was it called Blind from day one? Chris Do 45:47 It was, it was called Blind. And I think it was called blind visual communication. Because my business partner, the investor at that point in time, just didn't like what I really wanted to call it. Now, a few months into the business, we're making money, we're profitable. And he had promised $100,000 in terms of investment to us, he could not produce it. One of his properties was not going well. And he's had bigger fish to fry. So he basically defaulted his partnership and gave up his $10,000 investment. And so after that had happened, I dissolve Blind Visual Communication. And it just changed it to what I really wanted to call which is Blind Visual Propaganda. I was really still infatuated with Russian constructivism in terms of design. I love the aesthetic. And if you guys don't know what that is, if you're familiar with Shepard Fairey his work obey giant that's basically Russian constructivism kind of CO opted for street art. Marc Gutman 46:44 Yeah. And did it have that same kind of look and feel that that like, you know, I've seen that have a it was a blackout? Is that the type? Chris Do 46:53 No, no, I know what you're talking about, like black letter, like black letter. Yeah. typeface? No, it was more experimental in the early days. And we tried all kinds of things mixing serif and sans serif typefaces gather, doing Baroque and Gothic things with it. And it evolved all over the place from from those kind of grungy, the cult of scratch, as some some creative people would call it moving into super clean, ultra modern, just minimalist design. We played around with identity for for quite some time. And, you know, it's it's a design company, well, we'll do whatever we want. Roger called blind, it wasn't into. Yeah, it wasn't until the later part of our company, that I had come to this realization that we are one of the early pioneers of motion design in that we were there at the beginning. I think we're there like one and a half generation motion design, right? The first was like a guy named Flavio akamba, who was doing desktop animation and video. So we're just right after him. And we wanted to celebrate this. This was something that was unique to us. So I started pursuing this identity design that made it feel really old, hence the calligraphy the black letter. That's what we were doing. Marc Gutman 48:07 And then where did the name come from? why you'd said you'd wanted to call it blind. Like, why? What was that all about? Chris Do 48:12 Well, there's something that was intriguing about blind in that I love these kinds of I like ironic names, where we're graphic designers, we do visual communication, the name like blind, provokes dialogue. But I also tell you a dirty secret, which is, I grew up loving skateboarding, right? So vision Street, where it was a pretty big company, it was a corporate company. And there was a company called blind skateboards, who is a faction of x. visions, skaters, and it was kind of a mud in there. I love that kind of punk attitude towards it. So I took the same spirit, I'm like, we'll call ourselves blind. That makes a lot of sense. We're doing design. And there's a lot of really professional firms out there will be professional in our own way, will be the Pirates of design and, and we wanted to kind of have that edge to us. Marc Gutman 49:01 Yeah. And Blind had a lot of success. I mean, we could we could have, you know, can talk for hours about all the things you worked on. But you know, you were fortunate enough, you you won an Emmy, which is, which is awesome. And super incredible. What was that? Like? I mean, did you even imagine that? You'd be up there accepting an Emmy for your work at any given time? Chris Do 49:21 No, for a lot of different reasons. Now, we've been in business since 1995. And we've won a ton of awards. Basically, I would sit there and think to myself, I don't want I want to win that award. And we would apply and when generally speaking, we would win. And Emmy was not part of like it wasn't even on the radar for me because it was a whole different world because we make commercials and music videos and Emmys were generally for TV shows, not for theatrical, but for television. Okay, because theatrical Earth theater has the Oscars and other kinds of awards. So one of my office managers said you know, Chris, we're going to get you an Emmy. I was like, okay, her name is spacing her name now. Sorry. So she's like, I want to help you win an Emmy, I'm like, okay, so she went through the entire any kind of submission criteria. And she found a category for one of our projects that fit into that. And this is kind of the art of submission. So, I mean, there's all another story there. So she found that you could submit an animated work and music video qualified for a special category called Individual Achievement in art direction for animation. This is a juried award, meaning some years of it gives zero awards and some years, they will give several and it was up to the the animation pierburg to decide whether or not you deserve one or not. So she she took a video that we had just done that was very proud of it was for the Raven, it's called the hardest stone. And she submitted it. And to my surprise, they're like you when you get one. And I was thinking this is excellent. Until they send you this email saying, you need to prepare your acceptance speech. And it can only be I think, 30 seconds long or 45 seconds max, they'll cut you off. And you need to be short. You need to be pithy say something that will make the editors keep you in Edit when this thing airs. And I was struggling with this. Because this is in 2010. I had not done a lot of public speaking at that point, and definitely never even thought of doing a YouTube video at that point. So this kind of wrecked me. Like I can be there on stage. I can grab this statue, I can hold it up. But I don't want to say anything because I'm still not comfortable speaking. So that was super scary for me. Marc Gutman 51:35 Yeah, I can imagine. And I think that you mentioned I think I read a post as recently where you were talking about that, that you got kind of bailed out where they were running late. So you were sweating. You're in your tuxedo, you were like, sweat that hard. What happened there? Now Chris Do 51:55 You need to understand, like, I could look that part. The facade doesn't tell you a lot about what's inside. Right? At that point in time. I was just doing the p90x program. So I was really thin, very fit. Some people looked at me like, Are you sick? So I was wearing his brand new Dolce and Gabbana suit, tie everything I was like ready to go. But inside I was like crying like a child. Because we're sitting there in the theater. And you know, they're they're like, going through all the wards. There's a lot of awards to get through. And it's, it's, it's like, you know, when you ride a roller coaster, the line and the anticipation of the drop are the scariest parts. When you're chugging up the roller coaster and you're about to hit that point where you're kind of floating and you're going to freefall for a second. That's the scariest part when you're hanging over the top. And that's what it was like for three hours, sitting in that theater, waiting for somebody to grab me to go backstage. So here's the weird part to the story. So I'm shaking, my my knees are like, you know, I'm just bouncing all over the place. My wife's like, puts her hand on my knee is like, honey, you got to just calm down. You're First of all, you're driving me crazy, but this is not going to help you. And the reason why I was so nervous was because, like 30 seconds, what do I say? What do I say? Do I think my mom dad and my cousins or or my teachers like where do I go with this thing? And I had something prepared the night before. But you start second guessing yourself. You start thinking I just don't like the way that sounds. This is terrible. Let me go all heartfelt No, no, let me be all inspirational. Now, let me tell the refugee story. Now be humble. Like no be boastful. Like, I don't know what to do. And it's really weird because we were not sitting with the animation peer group because I was in the title design pierburg totally different group. It's weird. And so everybody that was gonna receive an award was already backstage. So there's a page who's walking down the aisle away, turning left saying Christo turning to the other side, Krista, and my wife's like, slaps him on the shoulders. Like, I think that guy's looking for you. Like, nobody's looking for me. I turn over and I could see this guy. He's making his way out of the theater. I'm like, shoot, I get up. I'm Excuse me, excuse me. Just moving past the ceremonies still going on. I run after I'm like, Hey, are you looking for me? Yes. Oh, my God, we are so late. I couldn't find you in your group. I know, I was sitting over there. He's like, I didn't get the note. We got to cut through the front. We're not going to go the background. There's no time. And I was like, oh my god. I'm already nervous about the talk. And now we're racing towards the front. And here's the interesting part to put all the beautiful people front, you know, when the camera pans and you see all the celebs there in the front. Okay. And so we're like rushing by I'm like looking past them as we're going up, like just thinking to myself, don't fall, don't fall. My shoes are slippery. They're brand new shoes. We race right up the stage into the back and waiting in line now, with these other award winners. The guy in front turns over, turns around, he's like, you know, and he's angry. He's like, Oh, you know, they're running long. They're not gonna let us do our acceptance speech. And I gotta tell you, it's like no words that made me happy up until that point. I'm like, Oh my God. And this just called homeless just washed over my body. I was like, This is so good. And he's like, you know what? I'm not gonna stand for this. This is wrong. This is our moment. Just because they're late should not affect us. I'm already gonna do is I'm gonna go talk to the producer. I was like, Oh, dude, just leave it alone, man. Leave it alone. And so now this whole kind of like, emotion of like scared nervous what I'm going to say, dips down to like calm and peacefulness eight goes right back up through the roof, like, Oh my god, I go back to like, rehearsing what I'm going to say. He comes back A moment later, he looks at me like, and I'm like, and it's like, no dice. Walk up there. You grab your statue and come right back as like, oh, that sucks. I'll smile. I was like, oh my god. I'm sure my pits were drenched with sweat. And just this emotion of running up there. There's up and down. Finally go out there. Okay, man, just try to take a good picture. And I couldn't even take a good picture. My head's all crooked, my arms all weird, but whatever. Marc Gutman 56:02 Well, you've got the picture. You've got the me. I got it. You know, and you have this agency in, you've won an Emmy, and you're serving clients and things are going great. But that's, you kind of that's not enough, right? Like so. Another vision starts to creep in and starts to I'm assuming I'm editorializing here, rattle around your head a little bit and starts kind of keeping you up. When does that happen? And then kind of how does that happen? Chris Do 56:32 Yeah, so for some context here, like I said, Before, we make commercials and music videos, mostly commercials. That's how we pay our bills for really large advertising agencies. And for us, the peak was a I think, in 2007, when we almost hit $7 million in Billings, right. So the commercial industry, as you now know, is tied to TV. And people were starting to stream content more. And they were able to use a DVR and skip commercial. So I could see the writing on the wall. Like when everybody was talking about TiVo and how cool it was. And I was using TiVo to skip all the commercials. I was thinking, Wait a minute, we're in a line of business, that's not going to be around, I don't want to be waiting for my death, the writing was clearly on the wall. And so I started trying to do different things that would make us less reliant on commercial work. And I tried a bunch of different things. And then we got into doing brand strategy and digital design as an agency. And we had success there. So I was thinking, Okay, I quickly moved us and I say quickly, it took a couple years, moved us away from relying purely on commercial work, to working with clients directly, building their brand doing the strategic work building their websites. And that was really cool. Simultaneously at at this time, my friend, Jose Cabo, and my friend Jose Kabir, was like, Chris, let's go make videos on YouTube together, because I want to start an education company. And he said, I know you do, too. And it's true. I did at this point, I was already teaching for 15 years. So I thought, Yeah, all right, let's try this thing. And it was really weird. It was super awkward for me, because I'm a behind the camera talent. I'm not in front of camera talent, people know what that means. So just looking into a piece of glass and talking to nobody, that was very, very scary for me,

BGBS 048: Jeff Harry | Rediscover Your Play | See Where Your Curiosity Goes Jeff Harry is a positive psychology play speaker and founder of Rediscover Your Play, with a mission to work with businesses to address their deepest issues such as toxicity at work, creating an inclusive work environment, and dealing with office politics through the experience of play. Jeff explains that adults are limited by their expectation of results and calculations of the future. By encouraging play, Jeff crafts an environment where adults can live in the present moment, think outside the box, and in turn, take risks and tackle issues in a more resilient, positive way. Companies such as Google, Microsoft, Southwest Airlines, Adobe, the NFL, Amazon, and Facebook all depended on Jeff to help their staff infuse more play into their day. His work has been featured in the New York Times, SoulPancake, the SF Chronicle, and more. Beyond that, Jeff speaks internationally about how workplace issues can be solved through play and was selected by Engagedly as one of the Top 100 HR Influencers of 2020 for his organizational work on addressing toxicity in the workplace. Jeff encourages us to get bored, follow our curiosity, and remove the need to “should on ourselves” due to other people's expectations. By doing so, Jeff helps us look within to ask, “What gets you in a place where you can hear you and no one else?” In this episode, you'll learn... Inspired by the movie Big, Jeff wrote letters to toy companies from 5th grade through high school with all his toy ideas until one responded and said that if he wanted to go into toy design, mechanical engineering is the way Once Jeff got his degree, he finally got the job of his dreams in the toy industry. And he hated it. Jeff banded with 7 other "nerdy guys" to build the largest children's Lego STEM education company in the country, teaching about 100,000 kids a year. The Lego STEM company was so successful that companies began asking for adult workshops, so they started working from scratch to help companies play outside the box The first time Jeff wore his signature Lego bowtie, he was dared to wear it to a conference. The more he wore it, the more genuine people would be around him and more connections he would make In junior high, Jeff did everything he could to get into the "cool" pool party with his friends, only to lose his core of play in the process. It was then that he promised himself to never compromise who he truly was again According to a UCLA study, you will hear the word "no" 148,000 times by the time you are 18 years old Just do the things that feel good to you. You'll know when you're trying to "should" on yourself when it doesn't feel right Jeff's dad came to the US from St. Vincent as a doctor and his mom came from the Philippines to work as a nurse. They met in an operating room in Minnesota Jeff encourages us to ask our friends what value we bring to the friendship and when we seem most alive to begin defining a path for ourselves, rather than relying on what society deems as right or wrong Resources Rediscover Your Play Website Youtube: Jeff Harry Plays Instagram: @jeffharryplays Twitter: @jeffharryplays LinkedIn: Jeff Harry Medium: @jeffharryplays TikTok: @jeffharryplays Get Inspired How Do You Add Play To Grown-Up Life - Even Now - NY Times A Play Experiment To Remind You Who You Are - Medium How To Play Through These Uncertain Times - Medium Quotes [20:14] I remember as I crossed that threshold, I felt such a wave of relief and I was expecting next to be so happy. But instead, as soon as I passed through, I felt like I left myself back there. I remember...just feeling like the loneliest I had ever felt in my life up until that point...and I remember making a pact with myself that day: I am not going to compromise who I am just to be cool or to people-please. [28:04] It's not that you shouldn't dress up or you shouldn't put your best foot forward if that is you. Yo, do you. But if you feel like you're doing it just because you're trying to impress others, and you don't feel comfortable in that space, then why are you doing it? [33:06] There are moments when you're in a state of flow, where you're creating something and it's hitting on all cylinders, challenging intellectually, it's challenging you creatively, and you feel alive, right? Like you just feel so excited about it. And that is what I mean by play. And that is what I want to help people rediscover.  [36:00] Just get bored and see what comes up, because you have to actually quiet down everyone else's voice so you can start listening to that inner curiosity, that inner child, that's gonna then whisper something to you like “start that podcast” or “write that blog”. Podcast Transcript Jeff Harry 0:02 And often all of us getting out and it's like, you know, like 90210 with that cool walk and, you know, throw in the towel over my like shoulder and, you know, and just act and so like dope because I'm, I'm finally going to get accepted as soon as I walked through this party. And I remember we were like, 10 feet away and feeling excited. And then I see a friend of mine run and I think Jeremy and a bunch of other people, and they weren't being led into the party. And they happen to be black. And there was a scuffle as like, maybe seven feet away. And I remember someone saying to them, Bob, you get the fuck out of here. We are not letting any support. And man when I heard that I just froze. Marc Gutman 1:03 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Backstory podcast. we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory we are playing. No, I'm not joking. And neither is today's guest who is super serious about play. Today we are talking with Jeff Harry. Jeff has built an entire business and life out of play. Jeff shows individuals and companies how to tap into their true selves to feel their happiest and most fulfilled ball by playing. Jeff has worked with Google, Microsoft, Southwest Airlines, Adobe, the NFL, Amazon, and Facebook, helping their staff to infuse more play into the day today. Hey, if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over Apple podcasts or Spotify, or the listening platform of your choice. These platforms use ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts, and ratings bring exposure which helps us to build an audience which then helps us to continue to produce this show. And if I may ask just one more favor. If you like the show, please recommend it to at least one other person. You may think well like it this week. That would make me happy. And who doesn't like a happy Marc Gutman? Jeff Harry is an international speaker who is presented at conferences such as inbound, South by Southwest and Australia's pause fest showing audiences how major issues in the workplace can be solved using play. Jeff was selected by bamboo HR and engaged Lee as one of the top 100 Hr influencers of 2024. His organizational development work around dealing with toxic people in the workplace is playworks work has most recently been featured in The New York Times article, how do we add more play to our grown up life. Even now, which we will link to in the show notes. He's also been featured on AJ plus SoulPancake, the San Francisco Chronicle and CNN. And as you'll hear in today's episode, while we spend most of our time pretending to be important, serious grownups, it's when we let go of that facade, and just play that the real magic happens. Fully embracing your own nerdy genius, whatever that is, gives you the power to make a difference and change lives. Jeff believes that we already have many of the answers we seek. And by simply unleashing our inner child, we can find our purpose and in turn, help to create a better world in this is his story. Today, I am talking to someone who does something that I don't believe I've ever had any experience with directly at least in my adult life, and we'll talk about that. I'm so just intrigued and excited to get into this conversation. I am here with Jeff Harry, who is a positivity psychology play speaker. So Jeff, like I'm gonna ask you right off the bat, what is a positivity psychology play speaker besides being a mouthful, Jeff Harry 4:53 Right? Um, knows. It's a great question. First, thanks for having me. I'm the best The way in which I described positive psychology in plays I, I combined positive psychology and the idea of player the concept of play, to work with businesses to address some of their like deepest issues like dealing with toxicity at work, how to create an inclusive work environment, how to deal with office politics bs. And we all do it through the mindset of positive psychology as well as the experience of play. Marc Gutman 5:27 Very good. And so, you know, a question I typically lead off episodes with is something to the effect of, Jeff, when you were a young boy, when you were eight years old, did you always want to have a job in play? But I can't really ask that because I'm assuming eight years old. Yes. That is exactly the job that you wanted. Jeff Harry 5:50 Yeah, so so and I love that you pick the number eight because I think that's when I saw the movie Big. And that was the catalyst for me. So I saw the movie big with Tom Hanks. And if you remember that movie, you know, he plays with toys for a living, he works for a toy company of all things. So you know, seeing the movie, I ran down to FAO Schwarz thinking if I just danced on the piano, a CEO would discover me and offer me a job. And that did not happen. So then I started writing toy companies in fifth grade on my word processor. That's how old I am. And I was spamming toy companies with letters before spamming was a thing, I would send like six letters at a time, that were like three or four pages long with all of my toy ideas, to any toy company that I could find the address to. And I just kept doing that all the way through high school until a company contacted me and was like, yeah, you need to stop sending these letters. And if you want to go into toy design, you should go into mechanical engineering, I did that which I probably should not have just listened to some random letter, but I did it. And then I went to school for it, graduated and then went into the toy industry. And I don't know if you've ever had a moment where you get what you want. But I got into the toy industry. And I hated it. Like there was no play, there was no high fives there was no toys. They might as well have been selling microwaves. And I was just like, What am I supposed to do with my life. And I was in New York and 911 just happen. So I was like questioning whether I should even be here. And I don't want to die in a cubicle. And I remember leaving New York and heading to the Bay Area, San Francisco Bay Area living in Oakland. And I remember finding a job where you can teach kids engineering with Lego. And it was only seven nerdy guys at this job. And I just hung out with him. And we helped grow the largest Lego STEM education company like in the country. And we all did it by just playing and making it up as we went along. Like we would pick cities because they were fun. We had no business plan. We pick fun people to hire. And we just weren't just making it up via play. And because we were doing so well. And we were teaching like 100,000 kids a year, Silicon Valley started recognizing us and was like, hey, do you run things for adults like team building events? And we were like, of course we do. Even though we did it. We didn't know we were doing we're just making it up. So we just say yes to anything. And then I realized as where was running a lot of these workshops for adults, they would talk about creativity and collaboration and connection. But they weren't playful environments. They weren't like creating a playful place where people could take risks, and quote unquote, think outside the box. So I was like, you're not tackling the big issues. So I created rediscover your play as a way to just like, yo, let's go right at those hard issues. But let's use play and positive psychology to do it. Marc Gutman 9:02 Wow, that thank you for sharing that you went from eight all the way to, through through now to now it's a time warp. And so we're gonna, we're gonna hold that we know where the story kind of leads. But I want to go back. I mean, you told me before we started recording that you're in Chicago with your family. And is that where you grew up? I mean, was your life like, like big was it with Josh Baskin, were you, you know, rooting for the Cubs? And? And, yeah, I know the movie. I know the movie. Well, you know, Jeff Harry 9:32 Well, I hated the cubs. I'm a White Sox fan, because I live in the south side, right? I live in the south suburbs of Chicago. And that's where I grew up. But yes, I am like, my dad is from the Caribbean. small island off the coast of Barbados called St. Vincent. Only 100,000 people. You know, I think he was the first doctor to make it in the US off his Island. And then my mom is from the Philippines and came here. You know, when I A lot of us nurses were going to Vietnam. And then they met in an operating room. My mom doesn't remember this. But they met an operating room because he was the attending physician in Minnesota, in Rochester, Minnesota at the Mayo Clinic, and she was the nurse on call. So that's just how like they got here. And then yeah, I grew up in a really predominantly white generic suburb, you know, that had Chili's and, you know, a Walmart and a bunch of other really boring places. Marc Gutman 10:32 So what was it about toys? I mean, it seems like that you were enamored for what you've shared with me with toys at a young age. I mean, you stayed with it, you kept hammering all these companies with your your desire to get in the industry, and you actually went and, and fulfilled that vision? And to answer your question, yes, I would say my life has been marked through our various chapters with getting what I wanted, and what I dreamed of only to realize my dream was way cooler than the reality. And they didn't match up and had to make a shift. So I feel you there. And I'd love to talk about that in a little bit. But kind of want to know, like, what about toys? Like, what was it about toys? And what kind of toys in particular were you drawn to? Jeff Harry 11:13 I would, I mean, I think I was more drawn to play but what I think I loved about some of the toys that I played with, you know, the GI Joes. And again, I love to do was I love to combine all of my board games together. Like Chutes and Ladders, Candyland, mousetrap, clue, monopoly, like all of them together, and I would set up this epic, you know, game for my sister and, and tying into like, what I now coin is my play values. The reason I love doing it, even though they hated playing that game, was that it was an experience for us. I love creating experiences for people. I love the creativity of it. And I love the connection. Like how do I build a memory from this? So like, that was the type of plays that I always wanted to do. So that kind of ties into even what I do now. But I think, you know, and maybe this is a perfect time to share my most embarrassing story from my teenage years. Um, is, where do I start? Yeah, it was seventh grade. I think it was seventh grade, where so much of what I do now is shaped by what happened in seventh grade. And, and I don't know if you remember, seventh grade was seventh grade. Good for you. I just want to just get an idea. Marc Gutman 12:33 It was a mixed bag. Jeff Harry 12:36 Right? Like most people don't like junior high, like they're just not enjoying junior high. And I remember sixth grade was like, super fun. It was playful. But I remember seventh grade. And I remember the first day of school. And all I wanted to do was play Foursquare, right? Because like Foursquare was like my game man. Like, you know, everyone's in there. You know, you compete, you get kicked out, and then you just get back in line. And I was so obsessed with Foursquare, that I remember walking down the hall, you know, to recess, or maybe it was lunch, and I was literally singing the song. I'm gonna play some Foursquare, gonna play some Foursquare. And I was so like, aim to get out there. And I remember going out first day recess, and like, nobody in seventh grade is playing. Like, no one's hanging out. And everyone was, was there before. So like, I remember running up to like, Matt, in, you know, Jimmy and just being like, yo, you want to play some Foursquare? And they're like, no. And they're all like hanging out just talking. Like, why is everyone talking? And then I remember Matt saying something to be like, hey, do you know that Ryan is dating Samantha? And you know, and mark is dating Julie? And I'm like, so do they want to play Foursquare? Like, I'm just trying to get an idea of like, Why no one's over there. And can we start playing right? And they're like, No, dude. Like, no, like, they're going out. And I remember being like that, what did he say? like Mark, Mark was going to first base with Julie. And I was like, What does that even mean? Like, you know, like, look over to the baseball field and like, No, dude, like they're kissing. That was like, I don't understand what's happening. Why is no one playing. And then I realized, like, a little bit later on, like, there was a new game that everyone was playing that I did not know which was being cool. And apparently there was a vote of like, Who's cool and who's not cool over the summer and, and there was no mail in ballots, so I never got a chance to chime in. So like the cool people had already been ranked, and I was like, really low on the totem pole, and I was like, This is wack. And I was like, Well, I'm just gonna keep going to play Foursquare. But every day we'll go out there. We know a buddy there. So Like this is frickin Bs, man. Um, and then I remember I was like, fine, I just want to belong, right? Fine. I won't play I just want to belong. So remember going up to, like Matt and being like, what do I need to do? Like, what do I need to do to be cool? He's like, you got to start, you know, like, daily. Um, how's that supposed to date? And he goes, Well, you know, you know, everyone, everyone that's cool has banks. And I was like, What are you talking about? It's like an all of the top ranked dudes literally had those like, bangs from you remember the 90s, where like, they flicked them out of their hair, right. And I'm a black, Filipino dude with a shoot fro at the time. And I'm like, I can't grow bangs. But I remember stealing my sister's Vidal Sassoon moves. And like putting all this mousse in my hair, and shoving it down to create this frozen bang, just so I could get accepted. And that moves would dry up by fifth period. And I didn't know that this is what happens. And when that happens, the bang turns from like a bang to like this raccoons. But that's just like coming out of my forehead. And I'm like, trying to talk to ladies like Hello, ladies. And they're like, oh, Grace, you know, and I'm like, this is just Bs, like, this being cool thing is BS. I hate it. But I needed to be accepted, right? So I constantly do all these things. And then I remember, late in the year, everyone was always being asked to go to parties. And I never got invited, right. And then there was this last party of the year. And it was like, the pool party of the century, for this junior high. And everyone that anyone's gonna be there. And I was like, Oh, can I go? And remember Matt being like, you know, it's invite only and I'm like, What is that even mean? So like, you have to get invited by someone that's already accepted, right? So I remember begging all these people, you know, can I come to the pool party with you? And they're like, now, now, like, you're not ranked high enough, or whatever. And they remember going up to Antonio, and Joey via Gomez, and being like, I go to the party, like, Can you bring me to the party. And they were like, maybe. And then I remember, basically being at their beck and call, you know, folding their triangle notes and handing them off to like their girlfriends and buying their lunches and doing whatever I could to, like, just get accepted by them. And then after two weeks, you know, I'm in the car with them going to the party, and I'm so amped, and like, like, I'm literally singing the same song of like, going on, go to the party, going into the party, go into the party, and I'm so like, excited. And then I remember as parking 20 feet from the party, and awesome, all of us getting out. And it's like, you know, like 90210 with that cool walk. And, you know, I'm throwing the towel over my like shoulder and, you know, and just acting so like dope because I'm, I'm finally going to get accepted as soon as I walked through this party. And I remember we were like, 10 feet away and feeling excited. And then I see a friend of mine run and I think Jeremy and a bunch of other people, and they weren't being led into the party. And they happen to be black. And there was a scuffle. As I'm like, maybe seven feet away. And I remember someone saying to them, like, fuck you get the fuck out of here. We are not letting any party. And man when I heard that, I just froze. Because the like, I'm black. Like, am I like, like, are they gonna let me in. And I just like, I felt as if like water had like, rushed up to my knees and just like, froze, and I couldn't move. And I'm like five feet away from like, the entrance. And remember Antonio, looking at me and being like, Yo, dude, like, come on. You know, it's no big deal. And I'm like, No, it is a big deal, dude, like they're gonna let you in, but they're not gonna let me and I don't even know where I am. I don't even know how to get home. And I remember getting up to the front. And, you know, the people that were blocking the party looked at Antonio and then looked at Joey, both were Latino and then looked at me, and they were like, is he with you? You know? Like, is he black? And Antonio's like, nice Latino. And I remember thinking like, Don't say anything, like don't say anything and you get it. You get in if you don't say anything. And I remember them just like nonchalantly, like, given a head nod of like, Alright, go ahead. And it was like nothing to them. But for me, it was like it was everything, like being accepted was everything. And I remember as I crossed that threshold, like, I felt such a first a wave of relief. And I was expecting next to be like, so happy. But instead, as soon as I pass through, I felt like I left myself back there. And I remember, there were like, 15 people at the party, and everyone's talking. And it was just so silent for me. And I felt such shame and guilt. And it was this pool party. And I remember like, going into the pool, because I wanted to play and no one's playing. And I remember just sinking down in there. And just feeling like the loneliest I had ever felt in my life up until that point. And I was like, is this it, like, Did I give it all up for this, and I remember making a pact with myself, like that day, like, I am not going to like compromise who I am, just to be cool, or to people, please. And I remember freshman year, then going into my basement, and making a weird games that I would play by myself just hanging out there. And after a while, some of my friends heard, like, you know, I was just hanging out in my basement, and it was a place where you don't get judged, and you can, you don't have to be cool there. And they would start coming over. And we would just make up ridiculous games. And I just created like, a safe space for us to just be like, our nerdy selves. Um, and what's ironic is like, that's what I do. Now, I do the exact same thing. But for adults, um, but it all stemmed from that experience. Marc Gutman 21:52 Wow. And thank you for sharing that and getting, you know, authentic and, and real on that, on that relive of that story. Jeff, like, why did you call that? Why do you call that your most embarrassing story? Like, I didn't hear embarrassment and that story? Jeff Harry 22:10 Well, I think I was embarrassed. I was embarrassed multiple times, I was embarrassed first, to be who I am, right. And then I was embarrassed. When I finally became, quote, unquote, cool, because I was embarrassed with who I became. Right? So like, I wasn't happy in either of those places. So it finally came down to me being like, alone, that's sitting in my basement, where I that embarrassment, like left me because I wasn't trying to please someone else. I, you know, wasn't ashamed of myself anymore. And I could actually just be my nerdy mate. Marc Gutman 22:53 And so what did you get from play back then? And how does that relate to how I play? How do we see and interact with play today? Jeff Harry 23:04 Yeah, so I define play as any joyful act, where you're fully present in the moment where there really is no purpose to the play, you know, you are letting go of results. And you don't have an anxiety about the future, you don't have any like regrets about the past, you were just fully in the moment, almost like in a state of flow, as a lot of adults like to refer to play as, and there's something powerful there. Because when you think of your best memories, their play moments, there are moments when you're playing, you know, they're not when you're documenting stuff on Instagram, um, and the opposite of play is depression, as Dr. Stuart Brown says, and if you think of like the world that doesn't have play, it is a world that doesn't have innovation, it doesn't have creativity, it doesn't have humor. And it's just like, especially during these uncertain times, especially during COVID times, like, so many people are. So many adults are fixated on results all the time, which really is like I see results and expectations is like the thief of joy. And because they're so fixated on what 2020 was supposed to be so many people were disappointed with twit 2020 was or what it is. And the more resilient you are, the more play oriented you are, the more you're able to roll with it. You know, the more you're able to be like, okay, that didn't happen, but that's not a big deal. I can figure this out, right? And embracing that playful, childlike spirit is what is going to help us actually get through the rest of 2020. Marc Gutman 24:44 So Jeff, I noticed and thank you for talking about play there. I noticed that both today you came to the interview, wearing a bow tie that almost looks like bit like a spinner. And in your headshot you have it like Tell me about that. What is that? Jeff Harry 25:00 So what this is zero clip it owns as you can see it, it's a Lego bow tie. And I used to wear it when I was working for that educational Lego organization. But I started wearing it as an experiment. Almost a dare from my colleague, Lisa at the time, was like, yeah, Gary to wear that at a conference. And I was like, Yeah, I am gonna wear it at a conference. And I remember wearing it because I felt like everyone at a con at conferences, has a facade, you know, like a professional veneer of like, this is who I am, what do I do for a living bla bla bla, you know, I'm not sure I'm a serious adult. So I was like, trying to mock that and being like, well, I'm gonna wear a costume to it, my costumes gonna be this stupid Lego bow, tie my clip it on to anything, t shirts, sweaters, whatever, it doesn't really matter. But that's going to be how I dress up. And I remember the conferences being so much more enjoyable. Because for some weird reason, because I'm wearing this nerdy artifact, and I would attract other nerdy people, and they didn't feel like they had to be their professional selves around me. And we can talk about nerdy things like Game of Thrones and Avengers, and why they love the Lego and anything else, you know. And I was just like, Oh, dude, I should just wear this all the time. And the more I wore it, like on airplanes and other places, just I, I realized, like, I was able to connect more with people, because then they would be willing to share stories about themselves, because they felt more comfortable being around me, because they realized I was playing. So why can they not just also play? Marc Gutman 26:35 Yeah, what's wrong with being professional being an adult? And I sense in your value system, that that is something that you like, you're like, hey, that that's, that's the wrong way to be. Jeff Harry 26:45 I don't know if it's right or wrong, because I don't like to think of things as right or wrong, you know, it's just like, Hey, you do you boo, boo, you know, like, like, but What I don't like is being inauthentic. And I don't like that we are always told how we're supposed to show up. Like, this is the right way to show up. This is the wrong way to show up. You shouldn't do this, you should not do that. You know, like we've been, you know, I say this a lot in a lot of interviews is, you know, the reason why a lot of adults don't play is because of 148,000. Nose, like, there's been studies that found that we hear the word no 148,000 times by the time, we're 18 years of age. On top of that, we get shut down all the time by adults and our parents and everyone else. And then we go to school where they tell you to ask they have you asked for permission, you have to raise your hand all the time. And then you look at media and social media that's always telling you you're not enough. So all of that is happening. And then anytime you want to be yourself, you're told you're being Miss too mischievious or being too much, that it's such a rebellious act for us to just be ourselves to just be our weird, nerdy self. So when I when I refer to as professional, it's not that like you shouldn't dress up, you shouldn't like should put your best foot forward. If that is you. Yo, do you. But if you feel like you're doing it just because you're trying to impress others, and you don't feel comfortable in that space, then why are you doing it? like who are you trying to impress? And and by trying to impress people that you might not care about in like a year? Like, how's that working out for you? Does that bring you happiness? And I've found that it has Marc Gutman 28:36 This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. And so tell me a little bit about this idea of play. I mean, I feel like it's one of those words that you can say it and I'm not sure that the schema that the the image that everybody has in their head always matches you know, and I think that we that might be one of the challenges and I feel like that happens like around the word story. I was building a business For a long time around the word story, and you know, that can mean different things, you know, 10 people come up and say, I want you to help me tell my story. And that can mean 10 different things. And you know, it's like, it's just like this word that we all think we know. But in reality, we haven't all agreed on, kind of like when I say horse, and we're all like, like, I'm like, right? Okay, I get that. So what is play? If you could dive into it a little bit? Like, how do we do it? And like, why is it so difficult? Like, what why are we challenged in this thing called play, which seemingly should be natural and easy? Jeff Harry 30:34 Well, part of the reason part of it is the 148,000 nose, and part of it is being told that we're supposed to show up to the world a certain way, you know, that they're adults are very results focused. Because we really want to always be telegraphing what's going to happen next, so we don't get disappointed. And that actually puts us in a really bad situation where we can suffer from depression and anxiety, because we're trying to control everything. And play is much more resilient. It's like it's purposeless. And you know, you're at play, because everyone's play is different. Like I said earlier, it's like any joyful act, where you're fully present in the moment. So when you're at play, you forget about time, like, what are the things you do where you forget about time, where you're just so fully involved, that you're like, oh, man, I didn't even realize I was doing that, you know, that could be this podcast, it could be making videos, it could be writing, it could be, you know, whatever. The thing is, that just brings you a lot of joy and satisfaction. And I think a lot of times people think, well, I you know, I don't play you know, I stopped playing. There was a moment when I went to the playground in the night and never went back to the playground. And I challenged that I remember I was coaching someone once though, was a lawyer. And she was like, Yeah, I don't play. And I was like, Well, what do you do? Like, what do you do in law, and she's like, Oh, I help people that hate each other to come to an agreement. And I'm like, that could be your play. Like, if you really enjoy it, and you like the puzzle, problem-solving part of it, like explore that, right? But I think, let me know, you felt this way with story. But when I would mention play to a lot of companies, they would recoil. They'd be like, Oh, gross, like I don't, we don't need to play, we need results. We need profitability, we need blah, blah. But when you reference it as flow, right, which is also a state of play. And you know, Dr. Chick said, me, Hi, this positive psychologist has this flowchart, literally called a flowchart where the state of flow is when the difficulty of the task meets your skill level perfectly, you know, and when the difficulty of the task is really high, but you don't have a lot of skill, you have a lot of anxiety, like when you first start a job, and you're like, Oh, my gosh, I don't know what I'm doing. But when you have a lot of skill, and the task isn't that hard, then you're bored, like when you've been at a job for way too long, or you've been binge-watching Netflix for way too long, and it's not bringing you joy anymore. But there are moments when you're in a state of flow, where you're creating something and you're like, it's hitting on all cylinders, you know, challenging intellectually, it's challenging you creatively, and you feel alive, right? Like you just feel so like excited about it. And that is what I mean by play. And that is what I want to help people rediscover. Marc Gutman 33:33 Yeah, and I love that idea. I mean, I can totally relate and resonate with this idea that we're super results focused and it always has to have an outcome and I think that was always kind of the trouble when we were talking story a lot of times it was like, What tangible result will this will this have and I can't promise you always know a lot of things are like, you know, in that in that space, where it's like talking about you're going to connect better you're gonna relate better you're going to all these different things to help people locate themselves. I think now people are seeing it more clearly that a brand story is an asset and something that drives revenue but but prior to that, it was it was challenging, and I think it also again, you know, using just that qualifier, brandstory helps a little bit when talking about it. But you know, when I think about this idea of play, like how, how do we do it like give me give me an example of what you know, you might do and you know, what kind of team that you might work with in the business world, if you will, and how you let them other than saying go play, like, like, how does it like how does it work? Jeff Harry 34:42 Right? So when I'm when I'm trying to answer the question for individuals is different from organizations. Alright, so when I'm answering for individuals, we first have to start with the idea of soothing or calming, so my play mentor Gwen Gordon talks about how You can't play until you're calm, or until you've soothed yourself in some way, if you have a lot of anxiety, you know, or anger or frustration or something like that you can't really play. And she talks about how you learn how to soothe and calm yourself from the person that that took care of you the most, you're the person that nurtured you the most. So you might be adopting a lot of the anxiety that they had, and a lot of that trauma. So you first have to identify how do I calm and soothe myself, if you think of when you have your best ideas, it's like when you're in the shower, or when you're walking, or when in some state where you're like, Oh, this just feels really nice. And then ideas just start popping up. So identify for that for yourself, how do you soothe and calm yourself. And then after that, then I challenge people to get bored, which is ironic as a played person, but it's just like, it's time to get bored, which means you got to shut out all of that noise. So hop off your social media for a couple hours, hop off binge watching Netflix for a few hours, and just get bored, like, and see what comes up, because you have to actually quiet down everyone else's voice. So you can start listening to like that inner curiosity, that inner child, that's gonna then whisper something to you, like start type podcast, you know, write that blog, like, reach out to that person you've always wanted to reach out to, but you're super scared. Like, it doesn't even matter what the thing is, as long as you're following that curiosity, because once you follow that, it leads to something else, which leads to something else, which leads to something else, like just even thinking about your podcast, when you first started it to now where it is so many, you know, so many, you know, years later, like, look at how it just is evolved, right? And even Steve Jobs talks about this, and I don't like I was quoting that guy, because he was super mean to a lot of people. But you know, it's never linear on the way back, right? So why are we trying to plan everything out in a linear fashion going forward? When it's just like this jagged craziness? You know, when you look backwards? Like, why are we not following our curiosity more, right? As for like, at companies, it really depends on what their pain point is, if they're dealing with toxic people at work, you know, my friend, Gary ware, and I put them through experiential play workshops, where they try to have a hard conversation with that toxic person, like they do it over and over again. Because a lot of times, we don't even know how to practice having hard conversations, just like we don't know how to practice telling our own story. We don't have practice having like having a difficult crucial conversation with someone, right? Like, or dealing with our inner critic, we don't know how to how to dress that mean voice in her head. So we practice that in the workshop, and actually almost embody that inner critic, and then address it directly. Mine is garga Mel, and then I'm like, Thank you, garga. Mel, for your super rude comments. I don't need them right now. I appreciate it. But you need to sit in the back of the car. I'm driving right now. So like, I put them through a lot of experiential play, and create a safe space so they can kind of like start to figure out who am I and how do I want to show up for work? Marc Gutman 38:13 Yeah, and maybe I'm a little bit confused. Because like, when you were using that example of having a crucial conversation. That didn't sound like play to me, that sounded like kind of like sounded like tough. That sounded like work. So maybe it was kind of like back it up a little bit. And like, explain to me like how how this play thing kind of actually works? And people people experience it in order to move forward in? Jeff Harry 38:38 Yeah, sure. Sure. So in the in, I'll go through the dealing with toxic people workshop, right. So when we when people first arrived to the workshop, we are like, you know, people are people are pissed. Some people are angry, like I've seen, like, we did it in Australia. And, you know, people were, you know, in tears at one point, and they were laughing at one point, because at the end of the day, what a lot of people bonded on was the fact that they weren't alone. Right? Like, just in regards to toxic people. I think it costs like $223 billion in the last five years for Fortune 500 companies, of people just leaving because someone's super toxic. So when they first walk into the room, you know, we go, Hey, we're gonna be you know, messing around, we're gonna be playing a lot. So what we want you to do right now is we want you to envision that inner a hole, that inner toxic person, and we want you to embody that person and we want you to interact with each other as that person as that, as I refer to Chad, you know, and people start doing it and they see how absurd it is, as they're saying it to each other and moving around the room. But they're starting to like feel Oh, and then we ask them afterwards. What was it like to be that ale? What was it like to be that toxic person? some people love it. Other people absolutely hate it. And then we run them through a lot of other things. Role Playing where they either are that person, or they're talking to that person. And, and it's a lot of roleplay. And a lot of times, at first, it is hard. And things can be hard. And they can also be playful. And sometimes they're not always fun at the time. But they're, we're diving into something much more deep rooted. And by practicing and being like, oh, man, you know, going off to Chad, you know, at work and being like, hey, Chad, when you're at that meeting, and you cut off, Samantha, um, you not only did you did it feel really rude for her. So she didn't feel like sharing. But it also communicated to all of us that you didn't want to hear what we had to say, you know, and you practice saying that, because you Chad might not know that they're a toxic person, and you're practicing having that conversation. And we do it multiple times where it feels a little awkward, you start to get comfortable with it. And then you have the bravery potentially, to go back out there and actually have a real conversation with your chat, right. And that's what we're trying to do is a lot of times, it's not always like, Oh, this is gonna be fun and joyful, but it's just like, let's get to serious issues. But let's do it in a role-playing way, where you actually embody what it feels like. So you don't, so it's not as bad as you think it's going to be because I think a lot of times we build it up in our head that this is gonna be really hard. And then you try it and you realize it's not that hard. Marc Gutman 41:29 Poor Chad, always has to be Chad. Always has to be Chad. Chad, if you're out there, I believe in you, man. I know you're a good guy at heart. Like don't don't listen to what Jeff is saying. So I love this idea of listening to your curiosity, like like following that, how do you know that that little voice you hear? Is curiosity versus something else? How do you know it's not a gremlin? How do you know it's not? You know, that little voice that's telling you, you know, who you should be? Like, how do you know that's the right little voice to listen to? I feel like we have all these like little little voices in us, right? That come up, Jeff Harry 42:09 Right? There's so many voices, right. And I can dive in the whole inner critic stuff in a moment if you want. But I'm someone I was at a winery once and someone's and I was like, you know, I don't know anything about wine. And the wine guy was like, you know, if you drink the wine, you like it, you keep drinking it, if you don't like it, you stop drinking again. And that's really the same thing with curiosity. You know, if you follow this curious thing, and it's just like, Hey, you know, make this video and you and you kind of like it and you're like, Oh, that's kind of fun. I think I'm gonna continue to do that. And if you don't like it, then you're like, Ah, I'm not interested anymore. You know. And that's kind of how kids are, when they're at the playground, they go play something with someone, they don't even introduce themselves formally, they just start playing. And then when they're done playing tag, then they're like, Yeah, I don't want to play anymore. And it's the exact same way. Just do the things that feel good, that feel good to you. You know, you'll know what that it's, it's not you and that you're trying to should on yourself, when it just doesn't feel right. When in just feel like when you can ask yourself, who am I trying to please right now? And then you're like, Oh, I'm trying to please my boss, sir. Oh, I'm trying to please, this friend of mine, you know, or I'm trying to please somebody, instead of trying to focus on what I want and what my needs are. So that's how I would be able to tell people how to decipher it. Marc Gutman 43:33 Yeah, and I think there's this thing, like, you know, and like that you brought up the podcast at one point as an example. Because Yeah, I mean, that is like, kind of, for me, the right example of curiosity, and following my curiosity and play, and that it was an experiment, I didn't really know where it was going to go. And, and that gave me a lot of freedom. You know, sometimes I would think, though, that by not planting my flag by not declaring, I'm going to make this a big thing. It also kind of gave me like, one foot in and one foot out, you know, it kind of gave me this, like, defensibility. And I think, you know, when I heard you talk, it's like, yeah, like, even when I think about and put myself in this in this situation, it's like, yeah, I'm gonna make that video, but really, I'm doing it because I want to put it on YouTube. And I want people to like me, and you know, I want some sort of, to your point result and the problem being and YouTube's a great example, I love I love shooting videos. I, I love the idea of being a YouTube, or, but I'm not, right, like, I mean, it was really hard for me to, like, accept that, like, I don't like to edit. And you know, YouTube's just not a channel where I can show up regularly and create content even though I do put some stuff up there from time to time. But it was really hard for me it's really hard for me to kind of like admit that it was hard for me to say, look at this as like, hey, it's a cool experiment or it's a cool frame of play that opened up a door or that's like this point in my journey that's now pivoting to someplace else. You know, I'm really personally struggled with this like, you know, am I Am I curious? Or am I wishy washy? And so like, how do you, you know, respond to people that struggle with that, like, is this curiosity? And is to your point? Is this just the way it's nonlinear? And it should be or am I just like, all over the place, and I gotta, like, be a little more, you know, have a little bit more direction. Jeff Harry 45:19 Um, I don't know when I hear the wishy washy and this is just my take on it, but it's just like, I hear this, like a should voice in that, right? Like, maybe you are wishy washy, sometimes. Maybe you are curious, sometimes, like, Who knows? Right? Like, you'll you'll figure it out by just experimenting more like I, if this is interesting, I make a lot of tic Tock videos, right? Like, I'm really fascinated by that app. Because there's a lot of play in there. There's a lot of people that are not taking them seriously in it. But even I, you know, we'll make a video, put it out there. And then like, Man, that was super fun to make. And then there's a part of me that goes back and just like, how many views how many views that again, Oh, my gosh, I didn't get that many views. And then I get like, there's a part of me that's like, it's super disappointed. But I remember as I was mad as I make more content, and I'm just putting it out there. And I didn't let go of it. Because like, it doesn't really matter whether it's popular or not popular, because I've had things that have gotten blown up and like 40,000 people watch it. And I'm like, Man, that's not even something I liked. I didn't even like as much making that video that video was like, man, how can be wrong like this other video. And then I realized like, that the arts, like people's opinion of your art or your creation, almost is none of your business. Which is ironic, right? It's just like, just create the stuff and put it out there, Jeff. And when I do that, then it's just so much more fun. Because I have to keep reminding myself, why am Why did I start making these in the first place? Oh, because I just enjoyed the creation, right? And then like a month dolla, like you put it out there and then it gets swept away. Like you you work on this design for so long. And then the wind blows it away. Because it was never about you. It was about just the creative process. And knowing when I make a fun TikTok video to start my day, if it Prime's my day to see everything in a very playful way. And then my friend Deseret told me this, which I really loved. Where, where when something good happens at the beginning of my day, ask yourself how can it get any better than this? Like, how can this situation get any better than this? with curiosity? And when I start my day with a tick tock video, and I'll just describe today, right? Like, you know, I started my day I made this video. Oh, this is awesome. How can it get any better than this? Oh, sweet. I have this really cool podcast with these people from England. How can it get any better than this? Now I'm talking to you on your podcasts? How can it get any better than this? I get to see my girlfriend later on. How can I get him better than this? And I'm positively stacking and priming myself to look for positive patterns throughout the day. And then that makes a good day. But usually when someone focuses on having a bad day, it's because they're focusing on one moment in time. And thoughts usually lasts between nine seconds and 90 seconds. So they're just running that bad moment in their head over and over and over again. And then looking for other bad moments. But you can get out of that by simply being curious and asking yourself the right questions. Marc Gutman 48:26 I want to be clear that after this podcast, it gets no better than this. Yeah. This is it. Jeff like this is like just I mean, I know you're you're curious, but like this is the little voice inside of you telling you. No, but it doesn't it doesn't this is this Jeff Harry 48:41 The sultry Gutman voice is the best thing I'm gonna get today. Marc Gutman 48:45 Well just enjoy it. Just enjoy it and know I mean, sometimes it knows to know it's this is as good as it gets. So, Jeff, how is it addition to being curious how else can we flex this play muscle? And like how do we know we're doing it? Right? Like how do we know we're... Jeff Harry 49:03 There is no right. So it's it's letting go of the idea of right and wrong. Because like during COVID times, and I put this out so much like nobody knows what they're doing. No one ever has ever known what they're doing. They're just making it up as they go along. And then and then people will make like webinars or courses that are like, this is what you should do. And you should do it this way. And maybe that will work. Maybe it won't maybe p90x is not going to get you on fit. You know, it's it's like it's just one way and it's their way. But you have your own way, right? And listening to so many people preaching about what we should have done or what we should do during the pandemic like this is how you should start your business. This is how you should pivot during the pandemic. And I'm like, wait, were you around in 1918 I'm just trying to get an idea of who was around running a business in 1918 during the last pandemic Because if you weren't, then shut up, like, like, stop acting like you know what you're talking about? Because none of us do. We're all simply making it up as we go along, right. But you know, a play experiment that I put out to a lot of people that I really enjoy doing with a lot of my clients is, you know, try this right? Reach out to your friends, like maybe three or four of them, and ask them these two questions. I'm like, What value do I bring to your life? Because I think a lot of people don't know why people are friends with them. Like, I don't know, what do I do for you? Why are we friends? Why don't you continue to hang out with me, which is really important to hear. Because a lot of times you don't know what you do for people, and you get to hear all that love back. So what value do I bring to your life? And then second, I asked them, like, whenever you see me most alive, or another way to ask it is like, when have you seen the most playful, most joyful, most present, you know, most happy. And they'll remind you and be like, man, when you were traveling, you felt that way. Or man, when you were like making that podcast, or when you make your videos, you seem so happy. And it's an and listening to multiple different people's perspectives on it and writing all that down. And looking at that, and being curious about what's on the page. Because all your friends are going to tell you totally different things, you'll start to see patterns and be like, Oh, man, that is what I'm most alive. Oh, man. That is the value I bring to people's lives. I never even realized that. And then follow that just follow that guideposts and see where that takes you. And I'm telling you, it's gonna take you to a really cool dope ass place. Marc Gutman 51:47 Yeah, I know, there's so much gold and nuggets in there. And all I can think of is that perhaps p90x and muscle confusion isn't going to work for me. Like I thought that worked for everybody. You know, I thought like I thought like, I mean, I've never done it. But like, I figured that, like, if I did it, I would be ripped in like Beachbody. And now like maybe like, you know, there's a reason I'm not doing that. Because it's not for everybody. It's not for my Thank you, Jeff Harry, you just you just let the p90x monkey off my back. Jeff Harry 52:17 Right. And let me remind me reminds me of something else that I talked about a lot, right, which is affluent deadness, right. So I know, a lot of millionaires like I know a lot of people that you would consider successful, you know, whether like famous or whatever the thing is, and a lot of them are not that happy. Like, I know people that have enough money, they could travel the world 10 times over, they can buy whatever they want. And they have a deadness to them. Not everyone, but a lot of people that are in this Echelon that we and many people are striving for. And they're either worried about losing all their money, or they're comparing themselves to somebody else. So they're like, Oh, I'm not as I don't, I don't have as many riches or I'm not as famous, or I don't have as many followers as this other person. Right? Or they're just straight, like, bored. But not in the curious, bored, but bored in the sense of like, Oh, I thought it was supposed to be more fun when I got here. And then they post on Instagram, that they're like, living these amazing lives, and everyone should be like them, but when in the background, you know, it's coming from a place of insecurity. So they're selling this lie of like how amazing this life is, with all this effluence when they're not happy, and then there's always people striving to get there only to get disappointed when they get there as well. So why are we pitching this as the successful right way to do it? Like it's just all bs to me. And instead, instead of being affluent, like, like, affluent, you know, monetarily. Why can't you be affluent, like socially or in an impactful way, or able to like build huge, like, really real connections are able to share your story in a way that's compelling that other people want to share? Because that that is like makes you alive? That is the type of like affluence I would want to reach out to one where you feel most alive and you feel most like yourself. Marc Gutman 54:24 So what if we have trouble getting bored? You know, like, I think of myself, I'm like, restless, I'm anxious. Like, I don't know if like just walking away from my phone and sitting in a park is always gonna do it for me, like, how do we get more bored? Jeff Harry 54:37 That's a good question. And the reason why I say bored is because if you think about when you were a kid, your best ideas came when you were bored, right? but also your most dangerous ideas came when you were bored. Right? So I think it and bored can also be referred to as calm, right? So it could be something as simple as like what we said earlier, like taking a shower. You have a ton of ideas when you take a shower, do a have a bubble bath, or go on a walk or you know, or you know, sometimes I do brainstorming sessions with my friend Lauren. But we do it over mimosas and then come up with a bunch of crazy ideas that way. You know, I've told people, you know, to do a play, experiment with their friends, where they get them all on zoom. And you're like, you know what, I'm not playing enough. And then we all you know, have a bunch of Moses, and we just start brainstorming all these ways in which we use the play as friends. And what we can do now in these COVID times, right, like, I was, I was coaching someone that was like, well, I love to travel, and I can't travel right now. And we were like, Well, then let's play with it. Let's play with the idea of like, how can you travel? What is it that you loved about travel? and she goes, I love meeting new people. I love meeting new people from other countries. I love those conversations. So she started looking for all of these nomadic networks and camp indies and all these travel places. And then found all these other people that also love to travel but live in other countries. And now she has all these new relationships with people. And she feels like traveling. And by just simply hanging out with them and has places to stay when she can fly again. That's all by her getting a little bored, a little calm and then being like, oh, let me follow this curiosity and see where it takes me. So like, that's where I would challenge people to just be like, again, you don't have to do it the right way. But just what comes what suits you? What, what what gets you in a place where you can hear you, and no one else. Marc Gutman 56:43 Hear you, And no one else. I like that. So Jeff, is we come to the end of our time here. Thank you so much. We'll make sure to link to everything. Jeff Harry in the show notes. While you were talking. I was looking at your Tick Tock. Yes. There's a lot of play there. Jeff Harry plays on Tick tock, and probably all other handles, but we'll make sure to get those linked appropriately. In the shownotes. Jeff, when you think back to that awkward eight year old boy and maybe that teenager with the bangs that were plastered against his face, or even that that boy that had to give up a sense of himself and go into that party just to be included? If you ran into that, that version of yourself today, what do you think that younger version would say? Jeff Harry 57:34 Would say to me? Marc Gutman 57:35 I'm sorry, you say if he saw you today? Like what would he think? Jeff Harry 57:40 He'd be like, that's badass dude. He'd be like, Oh, I don't need to try? Like, Oh, it was like, I had all the answers the whole time? Like, ah, wow, that that takes the load off me. Let me put down the moose. You know, like, let me let me stop word the zeek ever reaches in jerboas. Because I realized like, Oh, I don't need to actually try so hard. You know, like, I feel. I feel there's such pressure to try so hard to be some perfect version of yourself. When like, you have all the answers you need are ready. And you just really need to play enough in order to figure them out. Marc Gutman 58:33 And that is Jeff Harry. Positivity psychology play speaker. Yep, it's still a mouthful. I'm all about the play. And Jeff really got me thinking about this idea of where our best memories come from. And I agree. My best memories are when I'm in a state of play, when I'm not looking for any particular result. And it's long been a wild story core value that's posted, read on our website. Play for a living, followed by the words. The world of business is a much better place with humor, smiles and belly-aching laughter. we approach our jobs in mission with a sense of playful humor. It's okay to laugh. It's okay to poke fun at yourself. If you can't poke fun at yourself, poke fun at us. We can take it with a smile. A big thank you to Jeff Harry. stay curious, keep playing. get bored. Sounds like a recipe for success to me. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. A lot big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can deny.

BGBS 047: Jamba Dunn | Rowdy Mermaid | Welcome to the KombuchaverseJamba Dunn is the proud founder and CEO of Rowdy Mermaid, the first kombucha company to reimagine the 2000-year-old beverage as a plant-based medicine that is safer and fitted to anyone's palate. Yes, even a toddler. You'll soon see that the awesomeness of this company stemmed from Jamba's roots in the punk rock scene, his passion for Egyptology, and most importantly, his love for his daughter. Jamba's path to being rowdy actually looked much more musical than it does today. Jamba traveled across the US with The Pandoras and made some money DJing, hoping to someday fall into his own band playing guitar. Little did he know that someday a sour fizzy drink would fall into his lap instead and change his life forever. You'll have to listen to the details because you don't want to miss it! We commend Jamba's foundation in countering conventional culture, which helps us question, how can we all own our alienation rather than stand within the crowd? In this episode, you'll learn…Jamba was actually born James. He got the nickname from a friend in the 80s! When Jamba was first introduced to the punk rock scene, he actually wasn't interested in it. His friend showed him the safety pin he had through the back of his hand and Jamba thought that wasn't cool at all. Jamba had a very musical life for a while, which included meeting The Ramones and DJing until he dropped out of the music scene and started his life over Jamba's father and grandfather were both great entrepreneurs and inventors, and although he rebelled against this life early on, Jamba could help but return to his roots Once Jamba's toddler asked to try some of the beer he was brewing in his garage, he realized that he wanted to make something she could have as well, thus inspiring his interest in kombucha According to a market research survey in 2012, only 5% of Americans actually knew what kombucha was. Jamba had a lot of work on his hands to find a recipe that was just right. In the early days of Rowdy Mermaid, much of the brewing, deliveries, etc. were done in Jamba's garage with the help of some volunteers Today, Rowdy Mermaid is present across 48 states with a vibrant team of 30 people The name Rowdy Mermaid was discovered at a hot spring in Colorado, although it wasn't until much later that Jamba chose this as the name The design of Rowdy Mermaid's logo is inspired by Jamba's love of Nordic minimalism and Egyptology The anti-establishment agenda that punk rock stood for influenced the flat organization structure of Rowdy Mermaid ResourcesRowdy Mermaid Website Jamba Dunn LinkedIn Quotes[21:44] Punk rock absolutely spoke to me. It was all about taking your alienation and owning that and turning that into something that you could wear physically to show other people, “I'm not like you, and I'm proud to be different from you.” [24:35] Being lower middle class and not having the ability to get a leg up, it seemed like everything was turned against me or us. I think part of that might be true, and a lot of that was illusion. [37:56] It was a huge divide in my life, education. But it was something I was passionate about and something that I decided was more important than a lot of the relationships I had at the time. So I pursued education. [43:20] I sat there like, “Wow, that was really interesting. That wasn't just a beverage that was kind of an experience.” And I went back into the market, and I bought another bottle and went back out to my car and thought, “Well this one I'm just going to kind of sip,” and I downed it completely again. And I thought, “What is this?” Podcast TranscriptJamba Dunn 0:02I felt alienated. I didn't know how to enter into conventional culture. And I, in many ways over romanticized, what it would be like to be in conventional culture and to, to be popular to have the nice clothes to know more about the world around me and to feel confident in that world. And I just didn't have that and, and you're right, punk rock absolutely spoke to me. It was all about taking your alienation. And in owning that and turning that into something that you could wear physically, and show other people. I'm not like you and I'm proud to be different from you. Marc Gutman 1:00Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory, how his son of Scottish immigrants combined his passion for punk rock music, a thirst for learning, and the love for his daughter into a kombucha juggernaut. And before we get into the episode, I need to do my usual reminder. If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over iTunes or Spotify, iTunes and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. And we like good ratings, who doesn't? You'd be surprised how happy I get when you click on all those stars. It's almost like you gave me money. Almost remember, ratings help us to build an audience, which then helps us to continue to produce this show. So please go ahead and give us a rating if you think we deserve it. What do Scottish immigrants, Southern California, punk rock music, Egyptology, and a 2000 year old beverage have in common? Well, it turns out a lot. Today we are talking with Jamba Dunn, founder and CEO of rowdy mermaid. What is rowdy mermaid? Is it a woman surf brand? Is it a punk rock band? Is it an odd character from SpongeBob SquarePants. Not even close. Rowdy mermaid is kombucha and not just any kombucha. conceived as the first plant based kombucha. Rowdy mermaid thinks of itself more of a functional plant medicine company than a kombucha company. One that's on a mission to bring as many functional plants to as many functional people as they possibly can, using only the fruits, fruits, mushrooms and botanicals that nature created. And 20 years ago, if you walked into any grocery store, or even a whole foods, kombucha was not something that was readily available. We take for granted all the choices of kombucha we see on the shelves today. And generally speaking, kombucha is a fizzy sweet and sour drink made with tea. And for centuries, many people have believed it to be an elixir that relieves or prevents a variety of health problems. kombucha has been around for nearly 2000 years. It was first brewed in China and then spread to Japan and Russia. And it became popular in Europe in the early 20th century. kombucha is now experiencing revival and you can see it almost on every shelf at every grocery store in almost every neighborhood in America. The basic ingredients in kombucha are yeast, sugar, and black tea. And kombucha has been around for nearly 2000 years. It was first brewed in China and then spread to Japan and Russia. It became popular in Europe in the early 20th century. And now we're seeing it pop up on shelves all over America. Rowdy Mermaid, such a cool name and a great brand. And of course, you rarely find a cool brand without an intriguing founder. Jamba Dunn is certainly intriguing. I could have spoken to him for hours if we had time. We covered so much of his story and only touched on his passion for Egyptology, which is probably a whole nother episode that we could go into for probably another couple of hours. And not to get too sidetracked or weird. But speaking of Egyptology, a year or so ago, I was at the National History Museum in New York City and they had an Egyptian accent. exhibit and it struck me as odd. Why we don't carry on some of their traditions? Well, I've made it known to my family, but now it's here on public podcast record. I'd like to be buried in a cool Egyptian sarcophagus, probably Fox style, and then put into some sort of pyramid. You heard it here first. Okay, enough with my eccentricities. We're here to talk about Jamba Dunn, and rowdy Mermaid, and in 2012, while experimenting with kombucha in his garage with equipment that was originally intended to home brew beer, Jamba fell into brewing kombucha. Actually, his daughter wanted to be a part of the hobby. And being a good dad, john felt his three year old daughter should probably not be brewing and drinking beer. I think that's being a good dad. Anyway, as a way to include her in his hobby. He brewed kombucha and the rest. Well, this is his story. I am here with Jamba Dunn, the CEO and founder of rowdy Mermaid, rowdy Mermaid, what is that? You know, you might be thinking it could be maybe some crazy surf brand. It could be the cool new bar down the street, but it' s kombucha. So before we get going Jamba, can you tell us a little bit about rowdy mermaid and then we'll jump into a bunch of your story? Jamba Dunn 6:35Absolutely. Rowdy mermaid is a functional beverages company that I founded in 2013. And it was founded on the idea of bringing a safer plant based kombucha to market and now we're expanding into different product categories, or at least, we're experimenting with different product categories right now. Marc Gutman 6:59There's so much I love about the name and the branding, and we'll get into that, but I want to save that for a little later. But you know, I want to think back to a little bit of the beginning of your story. And when you were a young boy, I mean, did you even know what kombucha was? We're gonna kombucha say like, eight years old, like what are we doing around that time? Jamba Dunn 7:23Well, I don't think anybody knew what Kombucha was when I was eight years old. GTS is the largest kombucha company and they're about I think, 21 or 22 years old right now, before that, no other kombucha have been brought to market. So let's see cut back though, eight years old. That's an interesting time for me. I was living in Southern California, and just recovering from a major accident where I fell out of an automobile. And I think just really, at that time starting to recognize the the world around me in Southern California in the 1970s. With surfers and music and all the other things happening in California at that time. Marc Gutman 8:14That was like the the golden age, I think of California, or at least one of them. They've had a few but you know, the 70s and in Southern California, and I think, you know, like you mentioned, you know that that was the the blossoming of that 70 surf culture. There's a lot of different things going on there. What were you doing? Like, what, what were your interests? Where did you grow up? What was your family like? Jamba Dunn 8:36Sure. So you're right. It was one of those many Golden Ages that California had in the mid 70s, mid to late 70s. And I wouldn't fully drop into my experience of California and all it had to offer until a little bit later. But around that time in the mid 70s. My family was we're in Huntington Beach and my family is second generation Scottish American. And we were extremely blue collar, my family, my father and my mother. And we were surrounded by a very changing atmosphere. A lot of people were white color. A lot of culture seemed to be in transition around that time. I had an uncle who had started plastic fantastic surfboards, which has kind of a now sort of cult surfboard brand from Huntington Beach. And I had a cousin who was already surfing and would go on to become a very good surfer. And for me at that time, it was just more about the beach and school and trying to understand the world around me a little bit. I definitely played the role early on as this sort of translate Later between my family and the outside culture, I guess you could call it because my family was very different from even our immediate neighbors. And my mother and father were extremely reserved and cut off from other people and didn't really want to have much to do with them. And so, I would play, like I said, the translator between our neighbors and the waitresses and the the people who would come to our house for services. And so it was interesting time for sure. But, you know, cut forward a few years. About five years when I started high school, that was definitely the height of punk rock in Orange County. And that was a culture that definitely brought me out of the home and more into what Orange County and California had to offer at that time. Marc Gutman 10:55Yeah, and you know, I'm intrigued by this, this idea. And so if I heard you, right, your parents were first-generation immigrants. And are you in your second generation at that time? Is that correct? Jamba Dunn 11:05Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Marc Gutman 11:06And so you, were you born Jamba? Jamba Dunn 11:08No, I was born James. And it wasn't until the mid 80s. That friend of mine started calling me Jamba. And it just it stuck. And it's, it's stuck ever since then I could not get rid of it. So now it's my name. Marc Gutman 11:27It's a great name. I was wondering where it came from. And I wanted to get in a better story than I thought. And so and just before we move on, like, you know, you mentioned your your folks were blue collar, like what were they doing in this Southern California environment for a living like, what were you seeing and modeling after at that time? Jamba Dunn 11:46So it's kind of an interesting and convoluted story in itself. And I actually once tried writing a book about it, but it's hard to summarize. So I'll just tell one story. My grandfather on my father's side had come to the US after being a foreman in Europe and the series of factories. And he wanted to make a better life in the United States, but couldn't find work. He ended up becoming a milkman in Milwaukee, and saved up his money to try to, I guess, afford a better life, a better house, etc. And my grandmother, his wife, convinced him that she had a scheme that she knew about that was going to work in California. And that was to raise chinchillas, which at the time was all the rage, people would raise chinchillas, then they would sell them to a farrier. And they would come and take them all away and turn them into coats. And they would make lots of money off of that. And so he decided to take the bet and put all of his money, all of their money, all of the family's money into chinchillas. They then packed up the car and drove across the United States with my father and his brother and landed in Long Beach, and they rented a house. And a couple of days later, the chinchillas arrived, and they put them all into the garage and close the door. And the next morning, every one of them was dead, because they had no understanding of what they were doing, or what they were getting into, or how to take care of this animal that they had only just heard about. And my father had a meltdown and nervous breakdown. And he ended up dying shortly after. And my father found himself in California having to figure out how to make a living. And being somebody who is really not only industrious but but quick on his feet and smart with his hands. He started figuring out how to fix things. And he fixed different types of machinery, and ended up fixing, adding machines at the time. And then he went into the military and started fixing uniacke, and UNIVAC, the first computer systems that were installed on submarines. He got out and continued to to fix adding machines and later on copy machines, ditto machines and those types of things and started his own business. So that's how we we kind of landed in California and my mother had been a housewife her entire life. And so the two of them patch together a life like this. And that was what I came into Marc Gutman 14:47The way it works, you know? And that's the way it works. And so what did you think about that? You know, what did you think about your father? I mean, were you like, Wow, that's really cool that he's fixing all of these things, or were you like Like, you know, I can see there also potentially being conflict, you're looking around Southern California at the super cool culture and being like, this isn't cool. Like, like, Where did you land on? Like, what do you think about all that? Jamba Dunn 15:11So it's a really interesting question. And it's something that I've been trying to understand my whole life in some ways, I actually wrote a book about my dad that I need to go back and edit and try to do something with at some point called the baloney generation. And it was really about his lifestyle, growing up in the United States in extreme blue collar situations coming out of it, figuring out how to really fix anything that he can get his hands on, and in turning that into his living. And you're right, I mean, here I am. And I'm growing up in Huntington Beach, which at that time was a really up and coming cool place with surfers, I had an uncle who was in surfing. And as I mentioned, my cousin, cool culture was all around us. And we were just not a part of it. We were extremely low, middle class, and we ate very poorly. And my parents didn't know anything about nutrition. They didn't know anything about culture, or at least the culture that was around us. Both my mom and father had grown up in Catholic school. And so they knew a lot about Catholicism. But now they had given that up, and they wouldn't allow anyone to practice Catholicism in the house. And we were very removed from everything. So you're absolutely right. It wasn't easy to bring a friend to our house. Because my friends at school where we're from completely, I just I thought of them from being as from a different culture than I was in a lot of ways. And so it wasn't until later that I started to hang around with my father more. I started working with him at one point, when I was a teenager and into my early 20s, I actually started going out and fixing machines for him because he didn't have anyone to help him. And on our drives, he would let in on these stories that I just they seem completely different from the Father I had known. And so I became sort of addicted to hanging out with him and, and trying to get these stories out of him that he wasn't really willing to share in stories that he also thought were just kind of like beside the point that weren't really important enough to tell. One of them was growing up in Milwaukee, he was very interested in inventing new ways of listening to music and cars. And he was the first person that he had ever known that had installed a record player that can play singles on a spring inside of cars. And you could listen to it and drive and it wouldn't skip. And he was installing them into other cars and became kind of well known for a while when he was younger in in Milwaukee. Another one was this crazy story that still just seems odd to me. But he was working in Oakland at a company that fixed adding machines. And one day he was visited by these three men is three African American men. A one of them was very nicely dressed. And the other two were wearing leather jackets. And he said they they were very big guys. And the nicely dressed man came in to ask for his adding machine back. And my father told him it wasn't ready. And that wasn't a good enough answer. And they told them they wanted it now. And they ended up actually closing off the door and knocking over some machines and some cabinetry and things in there and telling him like, Listen, don't you know who we are, we're the Black Panthers. And my dad because he was so naive about culture thought that they were a Car Club, which I guess was a big thing when he was growing up. And so he tells me he looked out the window at their automobile. And he saw this, you know, lowered primered gray car with, with blue walls on it. And his perspective was he could never be pushed around by somebody who had blue walls on their car. And it just was like so crazy to me that to hear these stories to have grown up knowing who the Black Panthers were in my father still not knowing who they were but relaying these types of stories that I just realized that there was there was so much more there than I had ever done. Growing up, and it was very interesting. Marc Gutman 20:03I can imagine and to me, it sounds like you're straddling two worlds, you know, you're struggling a little bit this immigrant world with your, your parents and then trying to adapt and assimilate in Southern California. And you mentioned that as you got older, you started to find the punk rock scene. And that really kind of spoke to these people that felt like they didn't belong, that they didn't have a place like, you know, were popular music was they weren't, you know, it was a different kind of music for a different kind of person who didn't have a community and the type of music that spoke to them. Is that what was going on for you at that time? Were you really finally finding your people, the people that spoke to you and that punk rock scene? Jamba Dunn 20:52Absolutely. I would say that the one thing that's often missed about people reminiscing about the punk rock scene isn't necessarily the music. It's, it's really what it stood for. And it stood for all of those people who felt alienated by conventional culture. And I was 100% in that category. I felt alienated I didn't know how to enter into conventional culture. And I, in many ways over-romanticized, what it would be like to be in conventional culture and to, to be popular to have the nice clothes to know more about the world around me and to feel confident in that world. And I just didn't have that and, and you're right, punk rock absolutely spoke to me. It was all about taking your alienation. And owning that and turning that into something that you could wear physically, and show other people. I'm not like you, and I'm proud to be different from you. Marc Gutman 22:05And so who were you into at that time? And do you remember your first punk rock? I'll call it experience because it might not have been like a show. But like, yeah, who were you into at the time? And what was your first memory of like your standout punk rock or like your first, you know, punk rock experience? Yeah, my Jamba Dunn 22:21My first punk rock experience wasn't a very good one. It was a it was a very good friend of mine from school, who pulled me into an alcove at school to show me that he had put a safety pin through the back of his hand because he was really into punk rock now. And I literally had no idea what he was talking about. I was horrified. It didn't seem very cool at all. And then I remember him, like shortly after showing me pictures of Johnny Rotten, and how Johnny Rotten had, you know, safety pins in his ears. And I was like, That still doesn't really resonate with me at all. And it was like, shortly after that, that I started hearing local bands. Oh, yeah, the local bands were great. I mean, we we had TSL in the crowd. And in Orange County, I believe in Orange County, or LA, we had adolescence. The adolescence were a huge band for me, there were, of course, black flag was around in Santa Monica at that time, and there were so many bands around us, and a lot of them in Huntington Beach. It was kind of it was a little bit like being in London in the 1960s for the birth of rock and roll or the growth of rock and roll there. It was just everywhere, and you'd hear new songs and giving, you'd have to find out who it was. And there were record stores popping up in neighborhoods that would only sell punk rock albums. And we were drawn to those types of places. And eventually, that became my entire friend group. And, you know, they they weren't into, you know, self mutilation, or anything, the way their early punks seemed to be, but it was all about rebellion. And that was 100% something I could get on board with. Marc Gutman 24:20Yeah. What were you rebelling against? Jamba Dunn 24:23My parents, my upbringing, the feeling of being so removed. The feeling of being a translator and not having my own voice. Being lower middle class and not having the ability to get a leg up. It seemed like everything was turned against me or us. And, you know, I think part of that might be true, and a lot of that was illusion. And a lot of that was just how to lessons but I certainly at the time, I couldn't distinguish those. Marc Gutman 24:57Yeah, and so if we're still kind of in that high school, period, you're falling in with the punk rock scene. It's, it's you're finding this this group of people to rebel with I mean, what's your plan? What do you think you're going to do at this point? Do you have a plan? Are you just like, I'm just just trying to like get through high school like I'm gonna do I'm gonna work for my dad, like, What are you thinking? Jamba Dunn 25:16Yeah, plan. That's very funny. Yeah, there was no plan, there was no, there was no weird to go there was there was no, there was no strategy. There was no anything. It was 100% day by day. And I had no real guidance through all of that my family had no one in my family had ever gone beyond high school. And my parents had just barely gone beyond high school. And so they I couldn't turn to them for academics. My sister, who is four years older than me, really didn't want to have much to do with me. She was in a whole different music category. My sister was going to kiss shows and Queen shows and David Bowie and a lot of the bigger groups around the time and she was sharing some of her experiences with me, but we, I felt like I was in a different world from even what she was in. And so I was definitely drifting there was there was no plan. But I like your enthusiasm. Marc Gutman 26:34All right, well, so you're drifting and you're going through and I imagine at some point, you drift and matriculate, like that were matriculate through high school, and the real world is on the other side, and you can fill in any gaps where I might have missed that. But assuming that that to be true, that's true. And you kind of hit hit the real world and you're staring at the rest of your life, like, what does that look like? And what do you do Jamba Dunn 26:59So I didn't realize it at the time. But in my, in my last year, my senior year at high school, there was definitely some partying and there were definitely friends that I would stay out all night with. And there were concerts that would happen all night, and sometimes on weeknights. I didn't realize at the time that school was just falling by the wayside completely. It wasn't serving me public school was not helping me whatsoever. My teachers were not engaged with the students. It all sort of felt like something of a dream. And it wouldn't be until several years later that I ended up actually getting therapy and finding out that I had gone through post-traumatic stress during high school. And I had basically been just blocking a lot of my life out at that time. And that was from my my fall that I had mentioned earlier, the accident that happened when I was six. And so I started putting things together a couple of years after high school, and I started understanding that I had to, as you say, come up with a plan. And I had to get a little bit more serious about my life. And by that point, I was heavily involved in the garage music scene in Los Angeles. And my girlfriend at the time was the keyboard player in a band called The Pandoras. And she eventually went on to play with white flag and the leaving trains and other punk bands. And I decided that something had to change. And so when the the Pandoras went on tour, I went with them to the east coast and traveled around for a while and lived in New York and hung out with some of the bands out there. Got to meet Joey Ramone and hang out with the Ramones and lived with the fuzz tones for a minute. And he had a very, very musical life at the time. But I still didn't fully understand what I was going to do. I was making a little bit of money by DJing and clubs here and there. But the world around me was changing drastically and rapidly. I thought that something in the music industry would eventually work out for me. And so I moved back to California and started to write a fanzine for 60s Garage music, and I thought that was going to be the direction but I just I didn't have the dedication. I really just didn't know what I was doing. And so that kind of fell apart. And so I found myself kind of hanging out with people like Rodney being and heimer from Rodney on the rock and Greg sharp who founded bomp records that produced you know, everything from the Ramones to modern garage music, and I thought that Something would occur there and I'd find my way or I would fall into a band playing guitar. And in just everywhere I went, it was just not meant to happen. And it wasn't until about the late 80s, about 89, that I decided to simply drop out of all of it. And I got in my car, and I drove up to Central Coast, California. And I found a group of people up there that seemed friendly enough, and I decided to just stay and start my life all over. And when I started my life all over, I decided I would just leave behind any presuppositions I had about people in the world and how I should be in the world and how things should be and music and all of that. And it was like a personal rebirth in a way. And I spent a lot of time in Big Sur, and I spent a lot of time in San Luis Obispo and that area, Cambria. And I really started to to get into different areas, literature and food and understand people's stories. And I felt like at that point, there was a major transition that occurred in me and I realized that the one thing I had to do was go back to school, and to really learn this time. And so I eventually did that I went back to school. And I did very well in school. And I took a course that is now you know, kind of a very well known course, at Cuesta College, a several year course in the history of civilization, I became friends with the professors, I would hang out with them, I was just a sponge for everything around me. And I felt like that really, really propelled me forward and saved me in a lot of ways. And education to me seemed like the right direction. And it's interesting because I did go on to study at Berkeley, I got my MFA, I got my PhD later on. And I'm still friends with my, with my, my group of, you know, girlfriends and pals and everyone from the punk scene and the garage scene. And it is fascinating to see how different we all became. Most of them are still into music and publishing and recording. And I've definitely built a much different life for myself after all of that not to say it's better, just, I'm not sure where I would have ended up if I hadn't had taken that move out of California, or out of Southern California. Marc Gutman 32:58This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline. or even your product or a brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. And thank you for going into that and extrapolating that that journey, I mean, that was going to be my question and looking at your bio and looking at your history as you were talking and telling me that you weren't a good student. And you kind of went on this journey in to New York City to get into, you know, the music scene and I'm looking at your bio, and I'm like, at what point did you get this like thirst for learning? And it really is like the tale of two Jambas you know, and it's, it's interesting, and you very eloquently referred to it as a rebirth and a new awakening. I mean, can you get into a little bit more specifics as to like what flipped the switch for you? Jamba Dunn 34:39I think it was, wasn't about subject matter which schools before me had always been about. It was about people and structures. And I started meeting people who are professors who really took the time With me, whereas nobody had when I was younger and, and they took me under their wing a little bit, and they told me or I was going wrong. And they pointed out areas where I should maybe think about focusing. And they asked me what I was interested in, and what I liked about their courses, or what I liked about studying. And in a lot of ways, I realized I didn't understand my own desires. You know, growing up, it was easy to have a sense of rage and a sense of feeling on the outside and feeling like the whole rest of the world was entitled. And, you know, here I was, though, being asked, What do you want? And I didn't know. And so, school gave me the opportunity to start learning about the world in a way that I think, you know, hopefully my children get that now in really connecting to pieces here and pieces over there, and going back to these professors and asking them, hey, do you have more of this, or this is what I like, can you direct me and getting that direction, and really just feeling like I was on a kind of a journey. And interestingly, even though for the first time I was having this revelation of about education, and about all the different things that were going on in the world around me, and all the different avenues that I could take. My parents still didn't fully understand what I was doing, or why I was doing it. Because if, you know, in their eyes, you weren't studying to become a mechanic or to fix a machine or to become a doctor or to do something that was a position in the world that they knew about, then it just seemed irrelevant to them. And I remember even when I graduated from UC Berkeley, and I had been studying Egyptology and several other areas for years and years and talking about it, every time I saw them, they thought that I had gotten a degree in sociology. And when I told them, I didn't they, they just couldn't understand it. And they would be like, yeah, yeah, well, we'll just like pretend that you've got a degree in sociology, because I have no idea what you're talking about. And this huge divide opened up between myself and my parents. And if it wasn't there already, in the early days, it was definitely there then. And it opened up between not only myself and my parents, but myself and the rest of my family as well. My cousin who is my age who decided to surf instead of going to school. I remembered him saying things like, you know, you come around here with your big words, and nobody can understand you. And it was a huge divide in my life education. But it was something I was passionate about. And something that I decided was more important than a lot of the relationships I had at the time. So I pursued education. Marc Gutman 38:11Yeah, and I feel like we could spend hours talking about this topic. So I'll just shift gears a little bit and I want to move into kombucha and I want to know, When was the first time that you even heard of kombucha or even realized kombucha was a thing? Jamba Dunn 38:32Yeah. Interesting. So because there are a lot of lives that lead up to kombucha You know, a lot of my past, basically, that leads me to Boulder, and I'm at Boulder. I'm in Boulder and I had been teaching at a university here. And I remember going to a Whole Foods Market in 2009. And there's good old Steve o from high country kombucha standing by the kombucha set, handing out free bottles of kombucha. And, you know, I took one and he he told me a little bit about what kombucha was. And I could tell that he really, you know, he had kind of a stick and he wanted to like, tell talk with somebody. And so I hung out with him for a little bit. And he told me how I can take a bottle of his kombucha, pour it into a jar, put a lid over it, you know, or cloth over it and set it on the counter and grow scoby and eventually, I could make my own kombucha. And it sounded very abstract to me at the time, I did not comprehend how it was possible to take something off of the shelf of the grocery store and grow it and turn it into basically an engine for making more of that product. And so I brought it home and instead of making it I decided just to kind of drink it and you know that maybe someday in the future. I would do something else with that knowledge. But it wasn't until a few years later in 2011, that I was brewing a lot of beer in my garage at the time, my wife had given me a beer brewing kit. And it was something that had always interested me. And my daughter came walking into the garage. And so what I was doing, and I told her, I was brewing beer. And she asked, Well, is there you know, can you make me so Can I have some? And I said, Well, no, it's alcohol. And she didn't know what that was. And I told her, it wasn't for kids. And she got really sad and asked if, you know, there was something that I could make for her. And at that time, I kind of looked around the room, and I realized, I could spending a lot of my time in the garage, making beer and other things and getting really into this. And here's my sweet little three year old, you know, and I'm not spending time with her doing anything for her. And so I remembered back to Steve O. And I thought, well, this is going to be easy. I'll just take a, you know, bottle of kombucha and I'll put a thing over the top. And I'll make some for my daughter. And so I did that. And I did it with several different brands. And I realized that only one out of three of those brands actually started to grow. And I think that was the point at which I started wondering Hmm, like, what is this actually? And why didn't those other ones grow? And so I started to reach out for information. And I found that there was not much information about kombucha at that time. And I think that seeing that there was a lack of information and knowing that kombucha was a growing category, it just immediately fed my curiosity, and I had to get into it. Marc Gutman 41:48And so up to this point, between that and your first interaction with Steve, I get that right, Steve? Oh, is Yeah, keep thinking Steve. From the jackass movies. That's what keeps coming into my, into my head. But um, so I was like, I was like, I can't be here. So you have this experience with Steve Oh, and and all the way to when your daughter puts you on the spot and says, Hey, what about me? Like, what's your relationship with kombucha? Between there? I mean, you have a relationship? Are you consuming it regularly? Is it just this thing that's like, kind of out in the consciousness and you know about it, but you're not really into it? Like, what's your relationship with kombucha at that point? Jamba Dunn 42:26So yeah, it's, it's interesting. I remember that that day, when I went to the market, and I got my first kombucha and, and I remember going up to the car and drinking it and feeling like man, like, I don't really know what this is. It's kind of like a soda. It's kind of sour. I'm not sure if I actually like this. And then it was a couple of weeks later that I, I remember, I've been doing some kind of like hard work, and I was really exhausted and overheated. And I went to Whole Foods again. And I was walking around trying to find something that would quench my thirst. And I thought, whoa, the kombucha maybe I'll try that again. And so I went out to my car, and I closed the door, and I drank it. And I started drinking. And I mean, I took a couple of sips. And then all of a sudden, it just was like this, this like drive where I just downed the rest of the bottle. And I sat there like, wow, that was really interesting. That wasn't just a beverage that was kind of an experience. And I went back into the market, and I bought another bottle and went back out to my car and thought, well, this one, I'm just going to kind of sip and I downed it completely again. And I thought What is this, there's got to be something here that you know, is just very, very different than anything I've ever had. And that kind of sat at the back of my mind. And when I started brewing kombucha from my daughter, I was kind of taking a passive role. Like, I don't know what this is, you know, don't really care what it is. I've had it, it tasted good. But something about my daughter in the way that she was reacting to kombucha. She was getting really, really hyper and running around the house. The next morning, She'd wake up early, and she'd have her little cup and she'd be standing by the area where I was brewing kombucha, wanting more. And I was thinking, well, this is unusual. Like, she kind of has that same reaction that I remembered having, you know, years before in the car. And so, you know, I I didn't fully grasp what fermentation was what the beverage was. And so it was at that time in 2011, that I started really asking questions and I went around I look for all the literature, I read everything I could find. I went to the University, I read everything that they had on file. I started reaching out to kombucha companies and talking with CEOs and founders of other kombucha companies. Then, in 2012, I started paying people and offering $100 if someone would sit down and talk to me for 30 minutes, and what I quickly realized was that here are people that had thriving businesses that were actually doing quite well at the time. But not all of them understood what it was that they were doing or what kombucha was. A lot of people still thought it was kind of like a mystical thing that happens, you just kind of, you know, you put it into this jar, and you mix this in here, and you close the door, and then voila, there you go kombucha, you know, and, but nobody could tell me exactly what it was or exactly what the processes were, or why it was that it was making my daughter extremely hyperactive. And so that's where I really took a huge interest in kombucha and decided to go out and hire a microbiologist and a brewer and we work together to fully understand what was going on and what they helped me understand what was going on in the process. And I started looking for ways to hack that process. So you know, having gone through, you know, years of university and having gotten my doctorate in, in research, basically in philosophy, I had the ability to to understand when when I saw Bs, and what I was reading on a lot of websites at the time about the history of kombucha just smacked of total BS, there were no historical records there were, there was nothing that I could find at that time, that basically corroborated the idea that this is 2000 years old, except for the fact that I had studied ancient history. And I did know that there were lots of vinegar, I guess, drinks and attributes from the ancient world. And maybe this was kind of like those, but to relate what kombucha was today with those ancient elixirs just seemed not right to me, and something seemed odd about it. And so I did get heavily involved with this microbiologist in understanding that kombucha is basically a semiotic relationship between yeast and bacteria, the yeast consume sugar, that's you make a sweet tea with sugar in it. And you put in a starter culture and the yeast break down the sugars or oxidize the sugars and create alcohol, and the bacterial strains translate that alcohol into different types of acids. And so you end up hopefully with a low alcohol, low sugar beverage at the end. But that turns out not to be the case, oh, and low caffeine as well. And so what I did was I looked at all of the misunderstandings that occurred with kombucha around that time. And granted in 2012, we did a market research survey, and it showed that only 5% of Americans actually knew what kombucha was at the time. So a very small subset of people. And there were a lot of misunderstandings about it. People thought that by the end of the process, that it had no alcohol, that it had almost no sugar, and that it had no caffeine. And so I decided, I knew a little bit about research, and I could talk with people at research institutions and laboratories. And we could do some tests. And we could sort of prove that out. And so I started taking in my homebrews. And they showed that they were wildly, wildly out of spec, they were high on alcohol, they were high on sugar they had, you know, all these things that I didn't want. And so trying to figure out how the market leaders were doing it became a sort of obsession for me. Marc Gutman 49:20And at what point did you take obsession in in sort of this garage mythology and mad scientist tinkering in your garage for the joy of your daughter and following your own obsession? And at what point were you like, Oh, this is a business. I'm gonna like make a run at this. Jamba Dunn 49:38Well, let's see. The first inkling about potentially turning this into something else was definitely in 2012 when a market survey came out, saying that over the next five years that they they thought that kombucha was going to turn into a $500 million a year business with seemed just crazy to me at the time, because there were only a few kombucha companies. So there weren't that many companies and certainly, you know, only a couple of market leaders. And so it seemed like there was a lot of open space for other brands to get in. But I didn't have anything to offer at the time. So I couldn't make anything that was in spec. I certainly didn't make anything that was different from what the market leaders were doing at the time. And it wasn't until I think, mid 2012, that I got in touch with a brewer who had been the brewer for another major kombucha company. And she and I decided that I would lease a warehouse and she would come and help me with recipes, even though she wasn't very interested in doing that. And we rented a warehouse space and in 2013, started, really just doing iterations on different flavors, and herbs and herbs and plants was a place that I'd always been very interested. And pursuing. I've been growing a lot of herbs, I've been making a lot of teas. And so I decided to start taking some of those flavors from the TEAS I was making and her knowledge of herbs from India and other places. And we started building these recipes. And, you know, we would do iterations that would be you know, like 30 different batches of the same type of thing with, you know, one gram of ingredient less in every bucket, and really doing kind of this like pseudo scientific research and seeing if we couldn't land on something. Granted, I was doing all of this and throwing out hundreds of gallons of kombucha at a time because I had nobody to take it. And I still at that point wasn't thinking that I would turn this into a business. And it wasn't until we really hit on a series of recipes, and a series of methods for making kombucha that were really different from anything I'd ever tasted in the market. It was less acidic, it had low sugar, it did have low alcohol, although tended to waver sometimes depending on barometric pressure, temperature, other types of things. But it was relatively stable. And it tasted great. And suddenly I had people all around me asking if I would sell it to them? or could they come by and fill up their milk carton full of it. And it was at that point that I realized, we've got something like I've got something here. And wouldn't it be interesting to make the first plant based kombucha and really, instead of relying on the probiotics as the reason for believing in the beverage, put together these recipes that were based on age old herbal wisdom, and create herbal recipes, functional recipes, the based off of the herbs themselves, and use the kombucha as a sort of background for highlighting the ingredients that we were putting in. And if I could make a three year old or however old she was at that time, love it, then I knew that I would have a certain audience in America that would like this. And so I decided to drop everything that I was doing, and really just put 110% into building this business. And so that was in 2013. And it took me until April of 2014 to actually get the tasting room up and running. I and rowdy mermaid was born. Marc Gutman 53:57And where did the name come from? Jamba Dunn 53:59So when I decided to break into my family that I was going to leave my my stable job at Rosetta Stone and start a kombucha company. I took my family down to these hot springs in Colorado. And I'll never forget my daughter was really out of control at the the hot springs playing mermaid. Although it sounded much more like a dolphin to me. And she was making these dolphin noises and jumping over people's heads etc. And she was just really high on life and having the best time ever. And I was in an another pool and I told my wife Hey, listen, I got some news. I'm going to start my own business. And the first question out of her mouth was what do you call it? And I hadn't put any thought into that whatsoever. And right at that moment, I remember my daughter was jumping over someone's head into one of the hot springs. And I had to turn to her and say, Hey, sweetie, stop what you're doing. You're being very rowdy. mermaid. And that phrase rowdy Mermaid, just it went into a little room in my head and just stayed in there. And I didn't believe that that was going to be the name. So I actually went out and hired agencies to come up with names, and I did crowdsourcing for names, etc, etc. And it wasn't until a while longer later that I think I was speaking with the CEO of another kombucha company. And he told me, you know, like, you have to use a name that is authentic. Otherwise, you know, what are you doing in this industry? Right, because everything we do is based on authenticity. And I realized he was absolutely right. So I would use rowdy Mermaid, because it was for my daughter, after all, but I had to figure out some way to keep it from being rowdy and keep it from having mermaids because I didn't want it to turn into craft beer. And so I found myself in artists, and we went out and worked on the the logo and the branding. And we came up with something based off of Nordic minimalism, and I felt like we got it to a very good place. And here we are today. Marc Gutman 56:14Yeah, and I love it. And I think that, you know, it has this real kind of Explorer, you know, take me to other worlds take me to someplace new experience. And you mentioned, you know, all the different ingredients that you've been using, both at the beginning and probably today in your kombucha, like, you know, herbs from India and different plants and all these different things. So it has this real kind of like, take me to lands far away feel and I was going to ask you about the unique Oh, and some of the unique characters in your branding and in your, you know, typography and stuff like that, but that Oh, so from what I'm gathering is Nordic and and what do you call that? Jamba Dunn 56:56Um, so that, that no, you're talking about the newest font that we use from the it's, it's a Montreal font, that that's part of the brand new branding from here studio in California. But the real brand came from that original, what we call the logo lockup, which is the the tail and water. And that's kind of interesting story, maybe a long one, but I'll see if I can cut, cut it quick. I wanted something that represented both my interest in Nordic minimalism, and also the brand, the rowdy Mermaid, and also my interest in Egyptology. That's what I had been studying at Berkeley. So we decided to go with the tail with the water under it on three straight lines like that would represent water. Three wavy lines also in Egyptology represent water, but a straight line represents somebody's name. And so we decided to do the tail with a straight line under it not only to represent a mermaid tail coming out of water, but also to really define mermaid in that instance, just the way you do it with cartouche. And because I didn't want anything to be too rowdy, we decided to put the lockup around it. And that's how that was born. But there's also if you turn it on its side, a hidden k in there for kombucha. And we went back and forth for a long time about whether or not we should turn it on its side to show the K. Or just keep that as a secret. And we decided to keep that as a secret. Marc Gutman 58:40Well, thanks for sharing the secret. I see it now. And I can't unsee it. And I love it. And thank you for going into it. That's great. I love it. And I think that that's just such a great lesson and a great logos that has meaning beyond just it being assemble. And you really were thoughtful and it really whether or not we ever knew that it has roots in your Egyptology studies and passions like it's there. And I think that's just you know, what a great a great Mark does, and I love it. I love your brand and your branding. And so you started in the garage, you didn't set out to be you know, you're kind of like an accidental kombucha guy. And what does the company look like today? I mean, it started with you in the garage just kind of Ruin and now you actually have a like a company like what does that look like? Jamba Dunn 59:28Yeah, well, it's it's not uncommon for entrepreneurs as I've been finding over the years, but to find yourself in this situation where you feel, you know, a little bit like an imposter because you're right. You know, we started in my garage and we started with a concept and we started with a lot of research and not much else, not much money. It was a hard struggle for many years with me doing everything at the business from you know, bookkeeping and answering During the emails to making the kombucha and making the deliveries myself, the only people who worked for the company for the first couple of years were just volunteers. And so that was pretty much the way it was. I had, I think two full time employees in 2017, 16 started in 2016. And in November 2016, I fell, had a horrible fall and broke my arm. And I had complications from that. And I could no longer do all the jobs. And so I had to bring people in. And the first person I brought in was my wife, who was a wonderful sales woman. And she helped build a sales team and and I stepped away from doing manufacturing and production and started really focusing on the business itself. And what do we want? And where do we want to go and put together a plan that we're still following today. And today, we're in 48 states, we've got a vibrant team of about 30 people. I've got incredible team members, both people from the brewing industry here in Boulder, who are very experimental brewers. My first taproom salesperson is now our Director of Sales operations. And she's fantastic. We have a VP of Sales and Marketing who came from background and Coke and Pepsi. And we've got a food service person who just came over from Clif Bar, and we've got a really vibrant, interesting culture happening now. And I just I absolutely love it. And I get to finally step back again from a lot of the day to day and, and really help guide the business towards what I feel like we should be focusing on. And I just, I feel like that's my happy place. And it's a wonderful, wonderful life now, very different from our starting years. Marc Gutman 1:02:06It's taken a lot of sweat and a lot of a lot of risk and sometimes some desperation so I can I can relate. So john, as we come to a close here, I want to thank you so much for for sharing your story. And as you think back I have one last question for you if that young, eight year old jumbo who is in Huntington Beach and kind of feeling awkward and straddling two worlds I ran into you today. What do you think he'd say? Jamba Dunn 1:02:37Stay away from cars, I would tell him that he should not lose hope and should not be angry about the way things are. Because if it's one thing I've learned over the course of my life, it's that everything changes, and you've really, really got to learn how to enjoy the ride. Otherwise, it's never going to be very much fun. Marc Gutman 1:03:06And that is Jamba Dunn, of rowdy mermaid. The day after we recorded this episode, I received an email from Jamba. And with His permission, I am going to read it on edited Marc, Thanks again for the conversation today. It was fun. Although I woke up last night filled with a sense that I missed so many opportunities, and perhaps didn't paint the right picture. I wanted to get it off my chest. My father and grandfather are entrepreneurs and inventors. And although I wanted to do anything but follow in their footsteps is they lived externally difficult lives. And we often had our power shut off, or we had to hide from collection agencies when times were tough. Entrepreneur ism was for good or for ill in my bloodstream. You asked about me at eight years old, and I later recalled my father working all night repairing typewriters and photocopy equipment in the garage. He was also a master mechanic. And he had a side hustle of buying, repairing and upgrading old cars that he'd sell. And weekends when I was eight, I'd visit my grandfather who 20 years before had invented a device for squeezing all the toothpaste from the tube and who ran the manufacturing company. And so the idea was stolen out from under him. And he was always working on new devices, when I recall was for controlling the television from his chair using strings and another for generating custom address signs which he later sold door to door. So while I was unsure of who I was or what I wanted at that age, and later I would rebel by getting into the punk and Garage Band scenes. I was also subtly ingesting a sort of anti establishment agenda that will become crucial to my mental blueprint when dreaming up the structure for my own company. Where we are a flat organization, and everyone has a say in how we progress. Although my parents were somewhat shut off from the outside, they also valued Straight Talk. My father, for instance, always loved the waitress who would tell him he looked like crap. And who would ask if he slept under a bridge the night before? Because some days he did look rough, and he loved that honesty. Looking back, he had a level of personal transparency that has become a hallmark of rowdy mermaid. So while at first, it all seems superficial and not very pleasant living with my parents when I was eight, growing up in a vibrant and changing Orange County. It also taught me the lessons I needed to be successful in 2020. Best, Jamba. Thanks for adding that Jamba. We do appreciate it. And the thing that keeps sticking with me after our conversation is the focus on your daughter, brewing kombucha, to get her involved her rambunctious nature being not only the namesake of the company, but the essence of the brand as well. And that's the thing about truly authentic brands. They're part of the people that build them. They're living, breathing feeling entities, and even when you don't know like the little tidbit about the rowdy mermaid logo Mark being a nod to Egyptian hieroglyphics or the hidden k in the white space that symbolizes kombucha. You know, you can feel it, sense it, believe it. Believe in the promise that the brand is making, just in the way that I believe in rowdy mermaid. I will link to all things rowdy mermaid in the show notes so you can find and drink some of this delicious kombucha goodness for yourself. And a big big thank you to john but done and the team at rowdy mermaid. Keep brewing kombucha that means something kombucha that is changing the world. And if you know the guests who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast@wildstory.com our best guess like Jamba come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstorm.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS see you'll never miss an episode a lot big stories and I cannot lie you other storytellers can't deny.