Podcasts about shannon yeah

“I did it. They said I couldn't, but I did it.”When planning for her VBA3C, Shannon got just about as much kickback as someone can get. She was ambushed. She was coerced. She was given the scariest information. Shannon joins us from England today and talks about how each of her four births brought her to where she is today. By the time she was pregnant with her fourth, she was ready to advocate. She was ready to fight for something she had never gotten to experience. Though none of her providers were supportive, Shannon stayed grounded. She made her desires known and stood by them. Shannon labored unmedicated for just over 14 hours. Then to everyone's surprise, she pushed her fourth baby girl out vaginally in 14 minutes!The VBAC Link Blog: Is VBA3C Right for You?The VBAC Link Blog: VBAMCHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details 04:04 First pregnancy and birth08:31 Second pregnancy and scheduled repeat Cesarean10:56 Third pregnancy14:04 A heartbreaking third Cesarean17:42 Postpartum during COVID19:55 Fourth pregnancy24:37 Getting ambushed28:40 Shannon's VBA3C birth36:32 “We are all so proud.”38:30 VBAC after three CesareansMeagan: Hello, hello. You are listening to The VBAC Link. We have our friend, Shannon. Are you from England? Where are you?Shannon: England, yeah. New Cambridge. Meagan: Okay, see? I'm so glad my mind is remembering. You are in England and you guys, she is recording. It is quite late there. She is such a gem to stay up and record and share her VBAC after three C-sections. Shannon: Three. Meagan: Yes. Her fourth was a vaginal birth. Uno, dos, tres. I can't even say. I can't even pretend that I know Spanish. Let's be honest. So three, you guys. After three Cesareans and we know in our community that this is definitely something that people want to hear. People want to hear these stories because it is harder to find the support. They want to hear what people are doing, how they are navigating through, where they are finding support, and what they are doing to have their vaginal birth after multiple Cesareans. We are excited, Shannon, for you to share your stories today. 01:07 Review of the WeekMeagan: We do have a Review of the Week so we're going to get into that and then we'll dive right in. Okay, so this is from morgane and it says, “I'm Not Alone.” I love that title because Women of Strength, you are not alone. This community is so incredible and we're all here for you. It says, “This podcast has provided so much comfort for me in coping with my unplanned Cesarean and now planning for VBAC in March. The transition to motherhood has been somewhat lonely for me since most of my friends are not mothers and hello? Pandemic.” So this is a little bit ago, right? It says, “I am also an aspiring doula and spurred on by these ladies and their work. So thankful I stumbled across this group.” Oh my gosh. It says, “Us women really are strong.” I love that. Us women really are strong. I could not agree more. You guys, you are strong. You are capable and you have options. If that is not anything and everything that we talk about on this podcast, then I'm doing it wrong and you need to let me know on your next review. As just a constant reminder, if you wouldn't mind leaving us a review, that would be so great. You can leave it on Apple Podcasts, Google, or you can even email us. 04:04 First pregnancy and birthMeagan: Okay, Shannon. Uno, dos, tres– three. I'm saying it correctly now. After three Cesareans, you have had quite the different journey with each birth. Shannon: Yeah. I think each one taught me a little bit more and I probably wasn't ready for a vaginal birth with my first three. I think that while looking back on my journey it's difficult, I think it led me to where I am today. Meagan: Me too. I'm right there. Amen. Same. I love birth and I've always loved birth, but I do not think that I would be here right now with you today if it weren't for my experiences. Shannon: Yeah. I think the same. I'll get into where I am now when we're after my fourth, but had it not happened the way it did, I wouldn't be where I am now. Meagan: Who you are today. We grow and we learn and we inspire and here you are sharing your story. So let's talk about baby numer one.Shannon: Okay, so I was 19 when I had him. I just assumed that he was going to come out that way, that he was going to come out vaginally. It was going to go well. There were going to be no complications and it didn't turn out like that. I was due in the end of May and I think I was about a week over due. I went into the day unit here. It would be just where you would go if you had concerns that were slightly more than you would go to your midwife for but not enough that you would need to go to the labor ward for. Meagan: Kind of in between? Shannon: Yeah. Here, you have a midwife who is assigned to your GP surgery, your doctors, and they are usually who you see throughout. It's supposed to be a continous midwife, but it can chop and change. You don't see that midwife usually in the hospital so you deliver with someone completely different. Meagan: Oh, okay. Shannon: Yeah, so you don't get that continuity of care in labor. So I went to the day unit because I was having some hip pain. It was really difficult to walk and because I was overdue and I was already booked in for an induction purely because I was overdue, they brought my induction forward. I think I was 8 days overdue when I went in. I was induced. I had the pessary induction and it worked pretty quickly. It worked within about an hour, an hour and a half. Meagan: Oh wow. Shannon: They didn't believe me. They told me that it couldn't happen that quickly. Meagan: That's not super normal but it can happen. Shannon: They sent my husband home and left me on my own for three hours before they summoned me. I was 5 centimeters which is when they take you over to labor ward. I was wheeled over. I called my mum and my husband. Then it's kind of a bit fuzzy. I don't remember a lot from his birth. I remember that they broke my waters and there was meconium. They put the monitoring clip on his head. Meagan: The FSC, the fetal scalp electrode? Shannon: Yes. They put that on him and I was managing fine on the gas and air. Meagan: Was it nitrious? Shannon: Yes, yeah. Meagan: Okay. Shannon: Yes, the gas and air. It was about 3:00 in the morning and they told me that the anesthetist was going home and if I wanted an epidural then that was my last chance. I felt pressured so I got the epidural. All stalled from there. I didn't move off the bed. I think I got to 10 centimeters at 10:00 the next morning so I'm now 9 days overdue. I pushed. Nothing happened. They wheeled me to theatre. I think I started pushing at 11:00 and he was born at half 12:00 so lunchtime. He was a big baby. He was 9 pounds, 13. Meagan: Okay. 08:31 Second pregnancy and scheduled repeat CesareanShannon: That was that. I recovered and didn't think anything of it. 18 months later, we decided to have our second. I fell pregnant I think within the first month. It happened quite quickly. I did my research. I wanted a VBAC. I actually got signed off for an HBAC.Meagan: Home birth? Shannon: Yep. It was all going fine. Then I got to 32 weeks and I panicked because my mom is our only childcare and she lives about an hour. I didn't know how quickly I would labor because I had never labored spontaneously. I didn't know what was going to happen. So I booked a routine section. That was booked for 39 weeks. At 38 weeks and 3 days, I went into again, the day unit because I had reduced movements. They put me on the monitors and his heart rate was quite erratic. It wasn't settling. It was either quite high or quite low. There was no middle ground. I think they put me on there for about 4 hours and they just weren't happy so they brought my section forward to the next day. Meagan: When I read your note, I'm like, I don't know why, but that got me. If baby's heart rate is that erratic and they are that concerned, it would be that day and then. Shannon: Yep, but they were happy for me to go home and come back the next day. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. It's just convenience. It seems, I am not going to say, but it seems like it was more of like, Well, it's already going to happen so we will make it for tomorrow. We'll give you this as a good reason why to validate it. Shannon: Yeah, no I agree now. At the time, I don't think I thought about it like that. Meagan: Of course not, no. Shannon: Yeah, because with my fourth, with my VBAC, I went through a lot of what happened before. I definitely think it was a case of they didn't want me to come back with more reduced movements and just sit there so because the section was going to happen anyway, they just thought– Meagan: Mhmm, let's do it. Let's move it up. Shannon: Yes. He was born at 38 and 4. He was 10 days early and he weighed 8 pounds, 11 ounces. Again, he was quite a good size. Meagan: At 38 weeks, yeah. 10:56 Third pregnancyShannon: So then we decided to have a third. It took us a long time to get pregnant with her. It took us 14 months which was our longest conception. Our first one was four months and then a month so it took a while. She was due the 11th of April, 2020. I got to, I think it was about 30 weeks when talk of the pandemic was rolling in. We were like, Oh, it's fine. We don't need to worry about it. And then it all blew up. I had to go to midwife appointments alone, the hospital scans alone because I had to have growth scans because my babies are big. Everything was fine. I did want a home birth again with her, but they kept me waiting. I wasn't signed off until 37 weeks. They kept me waiting a long time to sign me off for that, but it was all signed off and we were good to go. I was feeling good despite the pandemic because we were in lockdown by the time she was due. I think the lockdown was called a month before she was born. Lockdown here for the first time was called on the 23rd of March and she was born on the 23rd of April. I remember I went into hospital and I had a growth scan at 40 weeks. She was absolutely fine, no issues. She was measuring fine. The water levels were fine. The placenta looked good. They gave me a sweep and sent me on my way and said, “I don't think I'll see you next week. You'll have this baby by the weekend.” It didn't happen. I got to 41 weeks and I went back for another routine growth scan. I remember going in the car on my own obviously and I felt good. I thought that they were going to say that everything was fine again and that they were quite happy for me to just carry on. It didn't go like that. I should probably mention that my hospital's policy is that if you haven't had your baby by 41 and 4, so 41 weeks and 4 days, they either induce you or they give you a section. That's their policy. I had this growth scan at 41+3. I went in, had this growth scan, and I was on my own. I didn't have any support. It was about 3:00 in the afternoon. She scanned me. In a week, my placenta had aged. It calcified and it was failing. Those were the reasons she gave me that she needed to get my baby out the next day. She gave me the pre-op swabs. She took my blood and she basically told me to come back the next day at 11:00. I had no time to prepare. I had no time to research. I had no time to ask questions. It was, “This is what's happening. You're going to do it.” Meagan: See you tomorrow. Shannon: Yep, basically. Meagan: Was baby's heart rate struggling? Shannon: No, she was fine. Meagan: She was fine. Shannon: She was fine. There was no reason at all. Meagan: That's interesting. Okay. 14:04 A heartbreaking third CesareanShannon: Then it was a mad dash too because I am the only driver in my house. My husband doesn't drive. Obviously, having a section means we can't go anywhere. Meagan: Yeah, and during the pandemic on top of all of it. Shannon: Yeah. It was a mad dash that night to get enough food in. House deliveries were like unicorn dust so to get enough food in, I had to arrange childcare with my mom. Otherwise, I was delivering alone. Again, she still lives an hour away in a different county. We were sure what the rules were because here, you weren't allowed to cross county lines. Meagan: Oh no way. Shannon: Yep. It was difficult. She did come up and she did look after the boys. I did see her before I went into delivery, but I didn't see her again until baby was 6 weeks old. She had gone home by the time I came home so that was difficult. I went in. I think I got to the hospital at 11:00. I was pulled down to theatre at 2:00 and baby was born at 3 minutes past 3:00 in the afternoon. She weighed 9 pounds, 4 ounces, so again, she was a good size. I got back to the recovery ward. My husband stayed with us for an hour and then he left. He wasn't allowed to come back. I still had my catheter in. I was still numb. My phone was dead and I was just left because I couldn't get anything. Every time you had to call a midwife in, they had to put in new PPE on and it just took so much longer. I didn't get wheeled around to the actual recovery ward until about 1:00 in the morning. They admitted to me that they had forgotten about me. I was just in this room on my own. Meagan: I'm so sorry. Shannon: Yeah. They wheeled me into recovery. I still had the catheter in. That didn't come out until 7:00 the next morning so I was bed-bound with this new baby. They came around and took my observations. My temperature was raised which is normal after a section, but I was told that I might have COVID, that my baby might have COVID. I would need to be separated from my baby and we wouldn't be able to leave the hospital for 3 days. Meagan: Stop it. Shannon: No, honestly. Meagan: I am feeling very frustrated for you right now and very saddened. Yeah. I feel a little enraged because this shouldn't have happened. These things didn't need to happen to people. Shannon: I know and the more that I talk to other people who have had babies during the pandemic, it's not unusual either. Meagan: No, it's not. It's maddening. Shannon: It is. It's strange now to talk about it without either filling up or actually crying because it has taken me a long time to get to this point. Meagan: To process. Shannon: Yeah. She said she would come back in an hour. I remember, obviously, I had my catheter in so I didn't have to get up and go to the toilet. I was just downing water trying to get my temperature down. She came back at 4:00 and I did get my temperature down because I didn't have COVID. It was a strange experience. There were six beds in this ward, but I was on the end bed and there was a woman diagonally to me and there was a woman two beds over and that was it. There was no one else there. It was eerie. It got to the point where I couldn't do it anymore so 26 hours after my baby was born, I discharged myself and I went home. I was not staying in there any longer. 17:42 Postpartum during COVIDShannon: Even after that, I got home and I spent the first week in tears. Motherhood wasn't new to me. She was my third baby, but giving birth during a pandemic was a completely different experience. I don't know what it's like over there, but here you have a midwife check in at day 3 and day 5 and then you get signed off at day 10 by the midwife then you get sent to a health visitor who then looks after you until your baby is about 5 then they go to school. Meagan: Wow, I like that. We do not have that. We are just told, “We'll see you in 6-8 weeks. See ya.” Shannon: Oh. Meagan: Then you just go home. Yeah. It's very different for a lot of home-birth people, but that's how the hospital is. It's like, “We'll see you in 6-8 weeks and we'll see you then.” That's really it. Shannon: That's interesting. I didn't know that. Meagan: Yeah. It's not great. Shannon: No. So on day 3 and day 5, I had to go to a clinic. They usually go to your house especially if you've had a section, but because of the pandemic, I had to go there, and being the only driver– my husband can drive. Meagan: You can't even drive after a section, really. Shannon: My husband can drive but we had to stick the old plates on. We made it there but it wasn't great. Yeah, we did that. We do have a 6-week check. It's with a doctor. That was over the phone and then you get introduced to your health visitor. Normally, they come over to your house. That was on the phone. And then that was it. We were just left. No one met her until she was 6 weeks old. She was the first granddaughter because I'm the oldest and my husband is an only child. She was the first granddaughter after two boys. No one met her until she was 6 weeks old. I spent the first week in tears trying to process everything that happened. It was a difficult time. After that, we said we didn't want another one so we locked it away somewhere and didn't deal with it. 19:55 Fourth pregnancyShannon: And then we decided to have a fourth. I had to come to terms with it. This is the reason why I'm here now. I found out I was pregnant in October 2022. It was a difficult journey to get my VBAC. It was the biggest fight that I've ever had to do. When you find out you're pregnant, you contact your GP surgery and then you are assigned a midwife. The midwife I had this time was the same one I had with my third pregnancy, but the first appointment, she was actually off so I saw someone completely different and she was horrible. I only live 9 minutes from the hospital. Meagan: That's really close. Shannon: Well, I know from listening to your podcast that women travel for hours. Meagan: Way far, yeah. Like to other countries sometimes even. Shannon: Yep, but 9 minutes was too far for them. She said that 9 minutes was too far. The paramedics might not get to me in time. If I bleed out, I'm going to die. If baby gets stuck, I'm going to die. I'm putting my birth experience over a live baby.Obviously, they know I care about the safety of my baby but that's obviously their job. I left that appointment in tears. It was a great start. It didn't improve from there, really. I think spent the next, I think your booking-in appointment is about 8-10 weeks so I then spent the next 30 weeks listening to your podcast, and researching stats, risks, benefits, and percentages. I lived, breathed, and slept statistics for VBACs because she probably 99% is our last baby. We've now got two of each so we don't need any more. I knew that this was my last chance to get the birth that I wanted. Off the back of my booking-in appointment, they referred me to the consulting midwife at the hospital. She is higher up than a community midwife or just a midwife on the ward but not quite the head of midwifery. She's kind of somewhere in the middle. I had a few appointments with her and while it was beneficial, it still felt like I was banging my head against a brick wall because she wasn't listening to what I wanted. Every time I would come back with a statistic or a risk that she had– like if I corrected her, then I'd just get a “Mhmm, yeah. Okay,” or a patronizing nod. Meagan: Like, Yeah, sure. You think you know what you're talking about but you don't. Shannon: Yeah, kind of. At this point, I was 28, a mother of three and I was about to have my fourth. They were treating me like a child or that's what it felt like anyway. So I went to every appointment knowing that's what I wanted. I read off my stats, my risks, my percentages and told them I wanted a home birth. They again weren't for it. They tried everything they could to get me into the hospital. We have a midwife-led unit and we have the labor ward. The labor ward is more for ordinary births like if you are going for the epidural and you want the more hospitalized birth whereas the midwife-led unit is more of a hands-off. That's usually where the birth pool is. Meagan: If you want more of a medicated versus unmedicated, those are the differences here. Shannon: As a VBAC after three sections, normally there would be no way on earth that they would have signed me off for the midwife-led unit. I was too high risk. However, to get me into the hospital, they signed me off for the midwife-led unit. Meagan: Nuh-uh. Shannon: Yeah. That's the option they gave me because I was close enough if there was an emergency, but I wasn't too far away. That was their trump card. Meagan: Okay, okay. 24:37 Getting ambushedShannon: I still said no. I still wanted a home birth because that hospital was the one I had my daughter at during the pandemic and I did not trust any of them after being lied to by the consultant and coerced into having that third section. I just didn't trust them to do what I wanted. Meagan: Yeah. It makes sense. Shannon: Pardon? Meagan: I said it makes sense that you didn't feel that they were completely trustworthy. Shannon: So then I got to 36 weeks and I had a routine midwife appointment at 36 weeks. I walked into the room and my midwife was there but so was the head of community midwifery. I wasn't told she was going to be there. I was ambushed. She basically said to me that– I have it written down because I made a post at the time. She said that basically, my baby would die if I carried on with my plans to home birth, that there was a risk of shoulder dystocia, and hemorrhage that would both result in death. A delay in the paramedics getting to me so that would be death. I didn't want a cannula inserted as a routine at the hospital so that would be a risk factor. I have a high BMI so again, that goes against me and they said I had low iron because I was refusing blood tests so that again was something that went against me. I was told that if I hemorrhaged and lost around two pints of blood that I would die, that my veins would have shrunk so they wouldn't be able to get a cannula in me. I was told that they wanted to send three midwives to my birth. They normally send two but for some reason, they wanted three. I was told that my previous experience should be put to one side because it happened during COVID and it's not representative of how it is now. I was told that I was making the entire midwifery twitchy. Meagan: Oh my. Shannon: Oh, the midwife I saw at the first appointment, the one who made me cry, she was one of the ones who was on call and they told me if she was on call, would I go to hospital and I said, “Maybe.” In my mind, I'm thinking that they were trying to put her on rotation to get me into hospital. Meagan: Sneaky. Shannon: Yep. I was told that the head of community midwifery's responsibility is to make sure I'm comfortable with the risks but it's also her responsibility to make sure her midwifery team isn't traumatized by my birth. I was also told– oh, they wanted my husband to be at the home birth assessment as it's their responsibility to make sure he is aware of the risks of death so he is not traumatized like I hadn't spoken to him about any of this. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Shannon: On my way out of that appointment, my midwife, the one who had supported me as best as she could said to me that she can't wait until I give birth so that it's all over. Thank you. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Shannon: Yeah. So that was that. Meagan: Wow. What a way to feel loved. Shannon: I know. Again, I had to go to these appointments alone because my husband was home with the three kids, and my mom, again, lives an hour away. I don't have the support here so I had to go to these appointments on my own and to be faced with two midwives who are just coming at you with these scary statistics, it felt like I was ambushed.I think I sent an email then and complained. I got this really lengthy email back but it was basically filler but it had happened already. 28:40 Shannon's VBA3C birthShannon: Yes. So, my birth. She was due on the 1st of July but I always thought she would be due somewhere between the 25th of June and the 28th of June. I remember the 27th of June, I needed to go and get new brake pads and discs put on my car. It was the last thing I needed to do. I sat in the mechanic's feeling a little bit uncomfortable and a lot of pressure. I think I was about 39+3 at that point. I was just really uncomfortable. I sat there for about two hours and I was just like, Ugh, why is this taking so long? Meagan: You were ready to move on. Shannon: Yeah. The next day, my husband went into the office and I remember messaging him, I think you should have stayed at home today. Something just doesn't feel right. I feel a bit off.I woke up on the morning of the 29th of June and I had hip and leg pain which isn't unusual for me. I've got hyper-mobility syndrome so my joints are extra bendy anyway so to wake up with pain is quite normal, especially in pregnancy. It was half-7:00 in the morning and my husband thought it would be a really good idea to cut his hair for him. It's half-7:00 in the morning. I'm nearly 40 weeks pregnant and I was doing his hair. Then I felt a twinge. I was like, I don't recognize that pain. I'll keep an eye on it. They turned into contractions. I had my first contraction at half-7:00 in the morning and they got stronger. I said to my husband, “I think you need to sign off now. This is it. It's happening. I'm going for a bath to see if they go away or if they stay.” We had a food delivery come in that day. We had an Amazon delivery come in and we had I think the carseat base was coming in as well that day. So in between my contractions, I was having to go to the door a deal with all of this stuff that was going on around me. The contractions stayed and they didn't peter off. They just stayed. At this point, I was on all fours in the living room mooing like a cow which is bizarre because, with my first one who was my only experience of labor, my mum said that I was eerily quiet. It was different to make noise this time. My husband rang my mom and let her know what was happening and then he rang the hospital. They told me that the home birth service wasn't available that day so I'd have to come into hospital. It was only after he told them my name that that happened. We'll leave that just hanging there. Meagan: Yeah. Shannon: Then I burst into tears because I thought that as soon as I go into hospital, that's it. I'm not going to get my vaginal birth. They're going to find some reason to section me and that's it. My mom came and drove us to the hospital. She was staying with the kids anyway. I think I got to the hospital at about 3:00 in the afternoon. They examined me and I was 4 centimeters so I was allowed to stay. They took me into the room and I stayed there until I had my baby. I just labored. I don't remember a lot of it to be honest. When they say you go to another place, you go to another place. Meagan: You do. Shannon: The gas and air were amazing. I did try the birth pool but we had an issue here where they had to have air vents fitted in the rooms with the gas and air and they weren't done in the birth pool. I was in the birth pool for about an hour, but I wasn't allowed the gas and air. The pool was all right, but the gas and air were helping me more. I went back into the room with the bed and even though I said to my husband, “I don't want to be on my back,” I was on my back for most of the time. That's where I was comfortable. When I was in the pool, I said no to the continuous monitoring. I just wanted intermittent with the monitor. We didn't know what she was. At this point, we had no idea what she was but they couldn't find her with the Doppler. They asked me to get out of the pool and put me on the bed and they were going to scan to see where she was. I couldn't roll onto my back at this point. I was on my side and I couldn't roll on my back to get them to scan me to see where she was. Then I opened my eyes and the consultant that had lied and coerced me into my third section was in the room and I specifically said I don't want to see her. She was standing at the end of the bed and she said to me, “How long are you going to push for?” I said, “As long as I need to. As long as me and my baby are safe,” and she left. That was the end of it. I didn't see her again. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Shannon: Yeah. That was that. They managed to scan me and they found her. She was just really low. That's the only reason they couldn't find her. She was fine. She was happy. It went on again for about another couple of hours of moving from all fours on the bed to my back and I remember sitting up on my knees upright and I felt something go. I was like, “Okay, I think my waters have gone.” They had a look and they had gone on their own. I didn't have to have them pop like last time. There was no meconium. It was all good.I remember spacing out for a while going to that other place. I came to and it was burning. That ring of fire is real. It was real. I said, “Okay, it really stings. Something has changed.” The midwife lifted up the sheet and she said, “Oh, there is the head. Quick!” They had to scramble to get everything they needed. My husband was texting my mum so I got all the time stamps. They saw her head at 3 minutes past 10:00 at night and she was born at 14 minutes past 10:00. She slid out and we found out she was a girl which my husband told me which was what I wanted. I remember saying, “I did it. They said I couldn't, but I did it.” They wanted to get her a yellow hat because we didn't know what she was but because she came out so quickly, they only had a blue one so she's got a little blue hat and yeah, she was here. It was amazing. I did have two second-degree tears. They did only repair one and I wish they had repaired both because going for a wee afterward with the open one was hell. Meagan: Yes, not fun. Shannon: But I would take that over a section recovery any day. I was going to the park with the kids 3 days post-birth. I was walking around the house. I was able to go up the stairs. It was amazing. Yeah, I did it. They told me I couldn't and that I would die or she would die. Meagan: They really put up a fight and tried so hard. Let me tell you too, I don't know the right word but to stand up to that type of pressure, oh my goodness. That is hard. That is very, very hard. The fact that you did and it's not like it didn't affect you. Of course, it affected you but you were able to go and you were like, “Listen, I know the research. It's in my favor. I'm okay. I believe that it's the best choice because I really have researched it and truly believe that it's the best choice for me and my baby.” They just tried so hard to not let that happen. 36:32 “We are all so proud.”Shannon: They did. I think it was the next morning and I was just sitting in my room with my baby quite happy. The head of midwifery came into the room and I had met her once before. She said to me, “Well done, you did it. All of our phones were going off last night because it was flagged that you had gone into labor and we were all waiting to see what had happened. But you did it vaginally and we are all so proud. Well done.” I was like, “Well, you didn't tell me that at the time, did you?” Meagan: You're like, “I wish you had cheered for me in my pregnancy and not made me feel like I was crazy or scheming my husband,” or all of that. Oh my goodness. Shannon: Yeah. Meagan: You have gone through a lot on top of your birth and trauma there and recovering from all of that. You have grown so much and achieved so much. You should be really proud of yourself. Shannon: Thank you. I am. I think that like I said at the beginning, if it hadn't happened the way that it happened, I'm going to train to be a doula in May and June. Meagan: Yay!Shannon: Because I don't want other women to go through what I went through. Like I said, if it hadn't happened the way it happened then I wouldn't be here today. I'm grateful for the experience, but I wish that I had more support at the time. Meagan: Right, totally. I mean, that's definitely something that led me to the doula and obviously here where I'm at too. I think through these birth experiences, it's hard to deny that fire inside of you when you feel it. Right? You're like, I want to help people not have the experience that I had and have a better experience to the best of my ability. I'm sure that you will do it and you're going to take this passion and you're just going to flourish and touch so many lives. I'm so excited for you. Shannon: Thank you. 38:30 VBAC after three CesareansMeagan: Okay, so let's talk about VBAC after three C-sections. I think this is sometimes a hard one because we do have providers throwing out things and blank statements like, “If you hemorrhage, if this, if this, and if this, you and your baby will die.” When we hear those things, it is very scary and very overwhelming. When it comes to VBAC more than two after multiple Cesareans and more than two, the stats are harder to find. Did you find that it was really harder to find? There are not a lot of huge Cochrane studies at least that I know about where they have studied VBAC after three Cesareans specifically. Shannon: Yep. Meagan: We are often told by providers that the chances of uterine rupture are astronomically higher than our typical VBAC or VBAC after two Cesareans. For people in your area in England, what did you find local study-wise for your stats? I'm curious to see the difference. Shannon: I didn't. There wasn't anything, no. I remember I had to relay as much information as I could on VBAC after multiple Cesareans because I remember them saying to me that after two Cesareans, the risk of uterine rupture doubles and when they say that to you, you're like, Oh my god, that sounds really scary. What they don't tell you is that it only doubles from 1% to 2%. There's not much here that is different because there really isn't a lot. There was not support especially not from my hospital or anywhere like that for me. I just had to do it on my own. The internet is your best friend. Meagan: Yeah, I know. This darn internet can be your best friend and your enemy at the same time. That's why we are here and why we have our blog and all of the things because we want people to be able to find that best friend side of the internet and really dive in. We do have a blog on vaginal birth after three Cesareans. It is titled, Is VBAC After Three C-sections the Right Choice For Me? We will have it here in the show notes so definitely check it out. In it, we talk about how uterine rupture makes the idea of VBAC very scary. The word itself, “rupture” makes it very, very scary. When I think of something rupturing, it doesn't look pretty. It's something that we want to talk about in its real form. Uterine rupture happens. When it does, it is typically an emergent situation. However, it doesn't happen very often and when we're talking about VBAC, the world feels like, and I'm talking about world as in other countries too, it is bigger than it is like you were saying. It happens in really less than 1% of people so they are showing that with VBAC after multiple Cesareans, it might be slightly higher around 1.2%. It's just so hard. What I think is unfortunate is that it's not being offered enough to show the real stats, but what this podcast and what Facebook and all of the groups out there, the VBAC groups are showing, is that VBAC after three Cesareans is possible. It is possible. Do your research. Find the support and you did it. I mean, I'm going to say that you did it without support. I mean, you had support from your husband and stuff, but to the fact that they were showing up at the end of your bed like, “How long are you going to push for?” That type of stuff is not combined with the definition of support for me by the way and ambushing you and those things. You got through it without that much support backing you up in this decision. That is where we are shy here. I think that we don't offer the support. One, if you're listening and you're a provider and you offer VBAC after three Cesareans, please let us know so that we can chat with you and get you added to our list. If you've had a VBAC after three Cesareans and you are listening and had support, please message us so we can add your provider to the list because VBAC after three, four, and all of the Cesareans may not be the best choice for everyone, but for those who want it, let's try to get the information out there. Read up. Get the information. Like I said, it's going to be in the show notes and the blog. We have our course. There's not a ton out there on vaginal birth after multiple Cesareans so find what you can. Read what you can. Find the stats and do what's best for you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Our Sponsors:* Check out Dr. Mom Butt Balm: drmombuttbalm.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Rounding Up  Season 1 | Episode 9: Multilingual Learners  Guest: Jean Harvey, Shannon Lindstedt and Christa Beebe of TNTP (The New Teacher Project) Mike: As a young educator, I was often unsure how to support the multilingual learners in my classroom. And my well-intended attempts didn't always have the impact that I hoped they would. Today we're returning to a topic we've discussed before on the podcast: support for multilingual learners in the mathematics classroom. We'll talk about some of the myths surrounding multilingual learners and dig into specific strategies educators can use to leverage their assets and support meaningful understanding of mathematics. Today we're joined by Shannon Lindstedt, Jean Harvey and Christa Beebe from TNTP (The New Teacher Project). We're going to talk with them about a set of tools and practices they've developed to support educators who serve multilingual learners.  Mike: Welcome, Shannon, Jean and Christa. Great to have you with us today.  Jean: Thanks for having us.  Shannon: Yeah, happy to be here.  Mike: So, Jean, I'd like to start with a question for you. I'm wondering if you could talk a bit about the misconceptions that we have in the education community involving multilingual learners. What is it that we've misunderstood about multilingual learners and how to support them in a mathematics classroom?  Jean: So, one of the most prominent misconceptions is that multilingual learners—MLLs as we call them—cannot engage in grade-level math because they do not yet have the language to understand the task. In MLL Good to Great, we take teachers through a planning protocol that has them assess English-language demands in a task. They consider what mathematical academic language a student needs to know to answer a problem. We ask teachers to also analyze what language in a problem may be new to students, and then they think through what visuals and additional supports could help students to understand the language and the problem. We also think through what language students will need to use to express their understanding. This step is so important because it empowers MLLs to be part of the conversation, and they can grow their language at the same time. When teachers first implement the supports, they're always so delighted how well their MLLs were able to participate in class that day. When the language is supported and MLLs can fully engage in the task, teachers see how capable they are and how eager they are to dig into the rigorous learning.  Jean: The supports also help to dispel another common myth, which is that MLLs might lack the confidence or the ability to engage in class discussions. Sometimes teachers avoid calling on MLLs because they fear embarrassing students. However, when our teachers provide the language supports that help students to understand the task and to produce the language needed to express their understanding, they become part of the conversation. MLLs need that access to critical language, and they'll need some independent think time to craft a response. But they're fully capable of engaging in grade-level math and expressing their understanding. By offering both receptive and productive language supports, MLLs are able to unlock content and demonstrate their incredible learning. We know that actively engaging in class discussions is important for all students, but it's absolutely essential for MLLs. Mike: There was a particular piece that you mentioned. You talked about the need for individual think time. I'm wondering if you can just say a little bit more about that, particularly with respect to MLL students?  Jean: Absolutely. So, one thing that we learned early on was that it's not always instinctive to give kids the think time that they need to gather their thoughts because they're not just processing the math in a given problem, they're also assembling the language that they need to use. In many cases, they're translating from their native language into English and trying to create … figure out how they're going to express their understanding in English. So, giving them that independent think time is incredibly important for MLLs.  Mike: Well, I will say that is most certainly something that is a shift in practice for folks. That level of comfort with what feels like silence—but for the learner is actually think time. That makes a ton of sense to me. Jean, I'm wondering if you could talk in a little bit more depth about the work that you did around vocabulary. And particularly, like, I taught kindergarten and first grade for quite a long time, so this actually feels really relevant to some of the things that I remember thinking about when I had children who may not have been familiar with language, let alone not having the language we were working in be their first language. Can you just talk a little bit about what that process was like for educators as you took them through it?  Jean: We would ask teachers to first think about what's the mathematical academic language that students need to know to access this problem? And so, if it was a problem on ratios, we'd think of ‘What are the terms they might need to use to discuss this problem?' They might not be terms that are specifically listed in the problem, but it's the mathematical academic language that might come up. Then we look at the problem itself, and we wouldn't just focus on vocabulary. There might be phrases in there that are really unfamiliar. We were working with one problem that was about students running a ticket booth and what they were charging for different blocks of tickets. And just the phrase ‘running the ticket booth' was really different because running has multiple meanings. And students know what it means to run, um, you know, using their feet. But running the ticket booth was very different. And so, we supported that with some illustrations and put a sentence by it so that students could make that connection. Sometimes teachers will make some connection to native language supports as well. So, using Spanish or whatever the student's native languages is a bridge to accessing some of the new language and making sure they have that connection as well. And then finally, we'd think about what language the students are going to produce. So, what do they need to say to express their understanding and how can we support them informing the language to express that understanding?  Mike: That's fascinating. What strikes me is how often the work that you're describing stops with the mathematical vocabulary and doesn't actually do that next piece, which feels really important. Like this idea: What is it about the vocabulary that we're using that we assume people understand, but that, like, ‘running the booth,' that's ( chuckles ) as you say it, and actually think and contemplate it. That's confusing.  Jean: Yeah, it's very confusing. And once teachers realize that that's what it takes to support language, you don't have to have an advanced degree in linguistics. It doesn't have to be deeply complicated. You're just really planning for what students might need to know to understand the mathematics in that task.  Mike: What are some of the moves that educators can make when they discover this language that we take for granted as everyone understanding? Would you be willing to talk a little bit about, what are the adaptations or the steps that folks take to help unpack that for children?  Jean: Yeah, absolutely. I think once you've identified different terms within just that day's lesson versus your academic language, you're going to want to have some consistent supports in your classroom. So, a lot of teachers will create a word wall. But a word wall isn't really effective unless students are using it. So, terms, definitions, and I'd also say having an illustrated word wall can be a game changer for some of the common vocabulary you're going to see within a unit—having that up so students can continually reference it and understand what it means. When we looked at the vocabulary and the phrases within the problem, we also connected it to visuals so we can explain what it means. We can provide students a written definition, but when you're still learning a language, the visuals are so essential to actually understanding what the term means or understanding it in context.  Mike: So, one of the things I'm curious about is, what are some of the understandings, the ahas, and the practices that you saw emerging as teachers engaged in this cycle of PL (professional learning)?  Shannon: I can respond to this one. We work with teachers to implement specific instructional strategies during their math classes, such as those mathematical language routines or the five practices. So, by using the variety of language supports incorporated in the program, we have definitely seen teachers develop a more nuanced understanding of what makes an appropriate scaffold and how to differentiate support for students based on their levels of English proficiency. It's not uncommon for teachers and the program to voice concerns that the tasks that we're using or how we're asking students to participate is too hard. And we know that this is coming from a good place. Teachers want their students to feel supported and be successful. So, we talk a lot about productive struggle and the role that it plays in students' meaning making and development in math class, and how critical it is that multilingual learners also get those opportunities to grapple with deep math concepts.  Mike: I think you're hinting at my next question, too, which is: Can you talk a little bit about the impacts that you observed on student identity and their learning as a result of this work?  Christa: Yeah, I'll take this one. This is my most favorite thing to talk about, cause I think this is where we saw the biggest impact, um, in the work that we were doing. And when we think about student identities, we almost had to take a step back and think about teacher identities. Especially when we think about mathematics and the role that that plays. We know that there's been a big emphasis on mindset and, and how important it is when we're learning mathematics to have this growth mindset and recognize that mistakes are OK and good, and that's how we learn. But we also know that math classes historically haven't been set up that way, right? We focus on a right or a wrong answer. So, there's not a lot of opportunity for kids in a traditional math class setting to experience the joy of making a mistake and working through it.  Christa: The hard thing about that is, we want teachers to create that type of math class for kids, but they may not have experienced that type of math class as a learner. So, in Good to Great, we give teachers the opportunity to reflect on who they are as math learners, who they were as math learners, and what their experiences were. And it's not surprising that many of our stories were the same, right? Like, we didn't see ourselves as math people, math is not our favorite subject, you know, on and on. And when we started to reflect on, ‘Well, how does that come through in our teaching?' Some things kind of bubble to the surface. Some teachers would look at that and say, ‘Math is hard for me, so I want to make it easier for my kids.' They want to make this a more positive experience, trying to make it easier for them to, to solve the problem.  Christa: So inadvertently, they're kind of taking away that power, making that mistake, and learning through it. And so, teachers had the opportunity to pause and think about, ‘Who did I position as mathematically capable today?' Really what that means is, ‘Who did we give the opportunity to be seen as a mathematical thinker, who got to answer the questions, who got to share their thinking?' And when teachers were reflecting on that, some of them started to realize that ‘No, I may not be giving my multilingual learners the same opportunities as my native English speakers.' And once we had those discussions, we pulled in those tools that support that productive and receptive language, and we challenged teachers to call on their multilingual learners the next day. And let's see what happens. They did the supports in class, called on those kids, and what we noticed in those debriefs that came after that: The teachers were starting to share, ‘Once I gave them those tools, they ran with it.' We heard things like, ‘My kids enjoy math class, they, they want to participate. They're raising their hands.' All of this from providing the right supports, digging in deeper to some of these mindset issues that we may have ourselves as math learners. And then how do we shift that experience for students so that they can develop their mathematical identities in this?  Mike: The psychology of all of this is fascinating because you're making me think about the idea of intent versus impact, right? So, the intentions of an educator who might be making some of the choices that you're talking about are positive, right? Like they're genuinely in a spot where it's like, ‘I don't want to make a child feel embarrassed.' On the other hand, the child doesn't know that. They just know that they're not getting called on, and they're making up their own story about why that's true. And that's also true for all the other kids in the class who are noticing that as well. And I think the thing that I'm coming around to is, it really does come back to the practices. You all gave them a set of tools to allow them to feel comfortable calling on those kids because they felt they could support them in the moment, and that produced a massive shift.  Christa: Yeah, absolutely. Once, they had the tools, they were able to see what their kids had in them all along.  Mike: You know, one of the things that jumps out for me is, there are a lot of demands on teachers' time. But what you described, I can imagine this happening in a grade-level team. I can imagine it happening at a PLC, and really investing in the types of practices that you all just described feels like the payoff is pretty solid. So, I wanted to ask you all for educators or instructional leaders who are interested in learning more about the Good to Great professional learning that you all have built, designed, and implemented, where can they go to actually learn more?  Jean: Sure. Thanks for asking that. So, we recently published a free toolkit that contains many of our MLL Good to Great resources, including the planning and reflection tools that we've been talking about today, as well as videos and exemplars. So, if someone just wants to learn a little bit more, they can go to the toolkit and see what some of the tools look like. The toolkit is called ‘More Than Right Answers: Math Instruction for Multilingual Learners,' and it's available on tntp.org. So, the toolkit also includes links to contact us at TNTP with any additional questions. And anyone interested in learning more could also email me directly. It's jeanine.harvey@tntp.org.  Mike: Thank you all so much for this conversation. I've learned a lot, and it was a pleasure talking to y'all. Jean: Thank you so much for having us.  Shannon: Thanks, Mike. It was great to be here.  Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability.  © 2023 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Full Transcript Shannon Austin, Executive Director of Vocational Rehabilitation at the Pennsylvania (PA) Department of Labor and Industry and Carole Clancy, Bureau Director of Special Education at the Commonwealth of PADepartment of Education join Carol Pankow and Missy Diehl in the VRTAC-QM Studio to talk about the important partnership between Vocational Rehabilitation and Education and how collaboration and commitment helped create and implement a strong partnership in Pennsylvania.   Check out and subscribe to the PA Transition Resources and Transition Tidbits on the web at https://www.pasecondarytransition.com.   Listen Here   You can find out more about VRTAC-QM on the web at: https://www.vrtac-qm.org/   Please stay up to date by following VRTAC-QM on Facebook and follow us on Twitter @VRTAC_QM   About VRTAC-QM Partnering with State Vocational Rehabilitation Agencies (SVRAs) to enhance service delivery and maximize outcomes through quality program and resource management. The purpose of the VRTAC-QM is to provide training and technical assistance that will enable State VR agency personnel to manage available resources, improve effective service delivery, and increase the number and quality of employment outcomes for individuals with disabilities. The VRTAC-QM provides TA and training in VR program and performance quality management, fiscal and resource quality management of the VR program, and general quality management of organizations. You can request technical assistance from the VRTAC-QM by contacting your TA Liaison directly, contacting any member of the Center you wish, or by filling out the information on our main websiteand clicking on submit. While on the main website, join our mailing list to receive updates on training and new activities occurring within the Center.     Full Transcript   VRTAC-QM Manager Minute: Education and VR - Let's Talk Collaboration     {Music} Speaker1: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute, I am so fortunate to have representatives from both VR and education to join me in the studio in an extra special bonus as having my colleague Missy deal helping me facilitate this conversation. Today we have Shannon Austin, Executive Director of Vocational Rehabilitation at the Pennsylvania Department of Labor and Industry. And Carol Clancy, Bureau Director of Special Education at the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Department of Education. So welcome to you all.     Carol Clancy: Thank You.   Shannon: Thank you. Glad to be here.   Carol: Today, we're going to dig into the very important topic of the partnership between VR and education that was brought to the forefront through the passage of W Iowa. When Missy talked with me about tackling this topic, you two were at the top of the list for people to connect with. we're now seven and a half years post WIOA passage, and states are at varying degrees when it comes to collaboration and cooperation between VR and education. We know that there are so many linkages between IDEA and WIOA in terms of transition and collaboration, and it's critical for a state as large as Pennsylvania. With well over one hundred and fifty thousand students with disabilities. We're really excited to hear from our Special ED and VR directors in Pennsylvania and how they've been able to not only talk about collaboration but create and implement a strong partnership. So let's dig in. So, Carol, I'm going to kick this to you first. Can you tell us a little bit about your role and your agency and kind of the whole landscape in Pennsylvania around the students with disabilities?   Carol Clancy: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having us here today. It's a pleasure to talk about this topic that we are super passionate about. I'm the director of Special Education for the Pennsylvania Department of Education. I am one of many bureaus at the Pennsylvania Department of Education that works collaboratively to support K through 12 plus students as part of the Office of Elementary and Secondary Education. The role of the Bureau Special Education is to ensure that students eligible under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act receive the educational services they're entitled to, to ensure that LEAs maintain compliance with IDEA and to provide the technical assistance to the local education agencies to ensure they have the knowledge base and the skill set, as well as the best practices to meet those expectations. There are about 300,000 students that receive special education services across the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and 500 local education agencies. Each one of those local education agencies are ultimately responsible to ensure providing free and appropriate public education. Pennsylvania is also divided up into 29 regions. Each one of those regions has an intermediate unit that provides regional support and services to those local educational agencies in a variety of capacities. These intermediate units have training consultants that are able to go into the schools, into classrooms and to provide the necessary coaching and training that teachers may need. They are a central support system for that region and a liaison between the local education agencies and the Bureau of Special Education. Finally, the Bureau Special Education also has our technical assistance arm, the Pennsylvania Training and Technical Assistance System Network. This technical assistance provides an array of trainings, resources, asynchronous synchronous coaching supports to intermediate units, as well as local education agencies based on needs that are surfaced through monitoring or need service from the field that is also divided up into three different regions a west, central and eastern region.   Carol: Holy smokes. That is a bunch. Thank you, Carol. So, Shannon, I'm going to kick it over to you. Can you tell us a little bit about your role and about your agency? And kind of like, how many offices do you have, how many students are you serving and all of that good stuff?   Shannon: Yeah. Pleasure to be here with you guys today and just really talk about our partnership with the Department of Education and working very closely with Carol over the last two and a half years. Currently within OVR. I am the executive director of OVR. We have about eight hundred and fifty staff or at full capacity. We are considered a combined agency, so we have the Bureau of Vocational Rehab Services and the Bureau of Blindness and Visual Services. We're serving every disability population. We also are one of the few states that have a comprehensive rehab training center, HTC Commonwealth Technical Institute, where we are also doing training and Pre-ETS and working with young people in this space. We have 21 offices, of which six are co-located in various locations throughout the state. Structurally, when we're looking at doing transition and pre-employment transition services, we have a division that is dedicated to transition services and pre-employment transition services, and they really focus on the policy development training and they're doing training with the VR staff. CRRP community rehab facilities providers that we may on board to do services in this space, employers at times to develop different work based learning experiences and may be key stakeholders that we may have to engage with. And then the crucial part that we're here to really talk about is implementing of programs and services.   We currently have vocational rehab counselors and early reach coordinators that are assigned to all the school districts that we have, and that includes the public, the private and those cyber schools. We have a referral system that is in place where they are working with the school districts, whether they are going in. We have a resource schedule for the cyber schools where we're working with them. We also have designated days where we're going in there monthly, weekly, biweekly into school districts based on just the referrals that we have throughout within a certain school district to meet the needs of those students to implement pre-employment transition services. And with that, some of the structural things that we have that we are really doing with the school districts or the LEAs within the Commonwealth, we have a lot of interagency transition, continual meetings that we're doing. So we really take a team approach. And as we go in a little bit further and talk about some of our MOU work, it's really going to highlight some of the things how we look at transition services and pre-employment transition services within the Commonwealth. Another thing that may make us slightly different than some states, we also have Act. 26, what is a state mandate for over in collaboration with the Department of Education to really collect and report data related to high school students with disabilities and with facilitating the process of job and career development between the local education agencies and employers. And according to the outline of Act 26 in coordination with LEAs, OVR, provides information in developing individual education plans for high school students with disabilities to ensure that job skills training is included in their plans when appropriate and when possible. Overall, our staff will attend education planning meetings, so IEPs, in person or alternative format, whether it's video conferencing conference calls when invited by the LEA's. So that's the basic structure of what we have in over and kind of where we're at. We currently in a year, we're serving anywhere. When we begin to look at the numbers, we have a data sharing agreement between us and VSC where we share data. And with that, in any year, we are serving anywhere from 165,000to 180,000 students that meet that criteria of 14 to 21 years of age in the state that fall under pre-employment transition services.   Carol: Wow, that's a bunch, great.   Missy: Are we ready to dive into the next question, Carol?   Carol: You bet. Missy.   Missy: All right. So can we talk a little bit? Maybe we'll start with Carol again. We'll just kind of yin and yang. You two describe a little bit about your relationship between the two entities, Education and VR in Pennsylvania and what it looked like before what it looks like now. How it's evolved?   Carol Clancy: Sure. Shannon and I started in our positions about the same time, and we are both really motivated to cause a positive change, particularly in this partnership between OVR and education. We actually met three Decembers ago, which is amazing, but I know that we both walked into that room knowing what we both wanted out of that meeting and not sure we were going to attain it. But it was very quick into that conversation. We realized we were on the exact same page and it created a strong synergy not just between Shannon and myself, but our teams. It was really an enlightening moment when we were like, we are in the right place at the right time. So it was that December meeting that we started to really have the conversation about what are the issues in the field and how we wanted to work together to fix them for the better outcomes of students with disabilities and our shared passions. And it was from that time that we set the mission, the vision and the agreement that we were going to have a stronger collaboration. I think what helps this work tremendously is that Shannon and I are direct from the field. We came from the field and we experienced the complexity of implementing and partnering on this work, and we experience what happens when there isn't a strong collaboration.  So bringing that lens and keeping that at the forefront of our minds as we are developing the implementation of the MOU, I think is what is keeping it strong. We certainly are just the run of the work, but we are not the ones doing the work. We have a very strong team beneath both of us that are worker bees that are very passionate, that really are bringing the work together in creating the moment you in a way that can be implemented. I think communication is the key. We have had structure team meetings that have happened regularly, either on a monthly or a twice a month meeting. But Shannon and I communicate regularly. I can commit that we communicate weekly. It may be a. Well, meeting, it may be a conversation between the two of us. It may be a quick meeting. Phone calls for driving somewhere. It could be an email or it could simply be a text. What we communicate minimally on a weekly basis just to make sure the work is moving.   Shannon: I don't want to duplicate what Carol has said because it's all accurate and true. I just want to put it in, probably in a historical perspective of really our relationship. Prior to us coming together and working and doing a lot of the collaborative work over ourselves had found ourselves, and we had an RSA monitoring and we had some corrective actions that we had to deal with and one of them which was updating our MOU with education. With that being said, our MOU had I think it was back in 2011, so it was very outdated and that was our starting point. And prior to that, there really was limited communication between OVR and education. And I think us stepping into our roles, as Carol said, coming from the field brought a real fresh perspective and a commitment on both of our parts, really to come together to make it work. We brought our field perspective, we brought commitment and leadership to our conversations and as we knew that we had to do some compliance stuff, which was the beginning of our relationship and working on the menu and working with the tax center and really coming into a comprehensive agreement with you guys. It was our starting point. And with that commitment of time of bimonthly meetings to really work on the MOU, you start to learn that one. We were speaking different languages, but we have the same intent and collaborating and coming together to really make sure that we were ensuring that we were having a seamless transition of services for the students that both of us were working with coming through our system. And we wanted them to go from school to work and working with both of us as Carroll does her part and we transition them, whether it's to the post-secondary education or to work and through that process. It has been just a growing. At first, I want to say it probably wasn't easy, but it became very organic and it just grew with time and just really our commitment to coming together to implement a very seamless service between both of us and our teams as we developed MOU for the Commonwealth.   Missy: One of the things that I noticed was you too have been so successful in bridging that language barrier between the language and the way that VR works and the language and the way that education works and presented that united front looking at that best way to serve students. How would you say what's that key ingredient, so to speak, in making that happen for Pennsylvania?   Carol Clancy: Sure. So I think that when we brought the teams together, we were able to speak about what are the barriers, what is not working in the field, and they surfaced really quickly on the very most basic level. The fact that sending our students with disabilities or our families with students with disabilities kind of through a gauntlet of fabulousness between the school and adult life was something we didn't want to do anymore. And knowing that this happened because the people that are the front line, the teachers most often who are at the front line are the ones communicating with the families didn't have the information that they need to start. A successful path is where we wanted to start to make sure at the ground level in the trench, the ones doing the work closest to the people needing the support had the information that they need. We wanted to remove those barriers and knowing that if we remove those barriers provided support through the process, we would be able to improve the work that we do. So how did we get to that? I think we really went down to the very granular level. What needs to happen to have this be successful and our building up from that point with the end in mind. It is really important that we are providing tangible supports that can be implemented. So we've developed a series of resources that are accompanied by webinars and training and coaching. Things can't be implemented if you just say this is how it needs to happen, you need to lead the people that direction. So we created the resources and the training and the support, and we want to have the whole group. So with every resource we create, we are creating a parent or a student companion document in the language that they understand and a visual that they can understand. We're also partnering with all of our groups, so I have worked with our PTI and we all have Shannon and myself have done webinars with them, so we're communicating to our families. Any time we have face time providing updates to my special ED Advisory Panel, to all of our advisory groups, to the local education agencies, to the intermediate regional meetings, every time I meet with them, I'm providing an update about where we are in the work, where we're heading. What they can expect, where they need to look for the information so that we are all on the same page and I'll stop there and let Shannon add in as long as she includes the joint website.   Shannon: So just to add on to what Carol talked about, one of the things it truly has been, Melissa, I think you have seen because you've been here kind of from the very start. It is really, truly been a journey for both of us, and we have been expanded by this partnership professionally, but also agency wide in this partnership that we've had. And the thing that we started out from the very beginning is that we said that we want it to be intentional what we were rolling out. But the thing that I think is key is the really the menu was really the glue that brought all of us together and really gave the building blocks and the fundamental pieces that we needed to be clear on what we wanted to do because we were very specific in our planning and the policy and the procedures and coordinating these services for students. So it gave us an opportunity to outline what services look like between the two agencies. It talked about how OVR was going to work with the local education agencies and planning the transition of these students. It really went into great detail on how we were committed to continuous communication. What was planning going to look like, what was the implementation going to look like was the procedures and policies and trying to coordinate these services for students. We're committed to the commitment of our partnership and making sure that we are implementing the services defining real clear expectations between over BSE, the lawyers and families, to the point that on the very onset, when we started to plan and put together and formulate our workgroup, it included various pieces. It was me and Carol and our teams. But it also included advocacy groups, parent groups, a consumer. There was providers that were part of that planning because we really wanted to make sure that we were looking through the lens of whoever was touching the MOU so that there was clear understanding of what we were doing. Roles were defined. We drill down on a toolkit that would make it very implementable for the field because I think our full background coming from the field. We did not want it to just be a document in black and white format. We really wanted to be tangible, something that they could put their hands on and really utilize it as a tool in their toolkit in order to bridge the gap of the services between both of our agencies. And I know we'll probably get more into this, but there were several collaborative areas as we talk about the website appointment connection positions that we've had an opportunity and more things are going to come out of this to really shepherd the view and our partnership and how it's going to increase and expand with time.   Carol: You're teeing us up nicely for the next question. I really get that good sense of that commitment and that collaboration that you all are having. Can you describe the work, now you've given some little nuggets that you all have been doing in Pennsylvania for students and your specific collaboration activities? And Shannon, I'll kick that to you first.   Shannon: So with our 2 years of work, that was the hard part and making sure that we had a planning or strategic MOU in place between the agencies and being clear in our expectations and what we were doing with that, we had a huge rollout here in Pennsylvania and we were able to kind of launch our MOU to the public March 2021. With that being said, me and Carol did a series of ATAND webinars where we introduced the MOU to the public and all stakeholders involved in second transition in Pennsylvania. So the first one had to do with unpacking Demo Q, and the next one had to do with engaging stakeholders and strategic alignment of our efforts. A lot of these were like panel discussions and just laying of information with both our agencies on that. We also launched a new secondary transition website that had various key stakeholders with that, the resources and it really, when you look at the website, it's through the lens. So it's not only done collaboratively, it's through a lens, no matter who the stakeholder is, whether it's the parent, the student, the provider or the school district or individuals from our agency, they really have a sense of the resources that are there and the toolkits that have been built out for them so that they have full understanding of that. We also have some initiatives that I know me and Carol. I'm going to I'm going to leave some of that for you, Carol, to talk about maybe the Navigate Team Navigator position and the youth ambassador position. Those are forthcoming that are really going to support the MOU that we rolled out. But there's been several opportunities where we have collaborated over the last year. We have presented at the transition conference this year to really talk about the MOU. We have a huge presence that was virtually we have worked with. Various agencies like Peel, Hispanic agencies to connect to Hispanic students and parents to really talk about them and the resources that are in place so that it can really highlight all the good work that's going on in Pennsylvania.   Carol: And Shannon, can you share that website address?   Shannon: Yes, I can.   Carol: That'd be great.   Missy: I think it's  PASecondaryTransition.com, right?   Shannon: Yes.   Carol: Excellent. I'm sure our listeners are definitely going to want to check into that. So Carol, Shannon gave you a little leeway there to talk about a couple of things. So please share.   Carol Clancy: Absolutely. I'll comment on 3 joint initiatives. I wanted to say that everything that Shannon is speaking about and that I'm going to speak about is a joint effort. And what I mean is you can't draw a line between what VR did and what education did. It's really just meshed together and collaboration so that the outcomes reflect this joint effort. 3 things I'll talk about is the Employment Navigator, the student ambassador and the Collaboration for Employment initiative we have upcoming this year. So the Student Ambassador Initiative is an effort to create paid work experiences for students with disabilities supported by over to become just that student ambassadors. What their roles would be is to be mentors, role models for other students with disabilities and during the transition world to help guide them along the way. From the student's perspective, these positions would be doing speaking engagements, mentoring, engagement and work experience while they're at the local regional intermediate units or any other approved service provider by OVR. We're really looking forward to this because it speaks volumes to the efforts that we're putting into people with disabilities, meaning that they are the consumers. So what better way to have them be the spokesperson for the services that they are entitled to? So we're looking forward to that beginning. It's in the process of hiring right now. Another initiative that is coming out in the near future are employment navigator positions. Again, these are positions that will be funded by OVR, hired by our regional intermediate units. And the purposes of these positions is to fill that void that occurs between school age services and adult services. We often lose our families or our students in this gauntlet of uncertainty between that path, between school age and adult services. So this employment navigators role will be just that fill that void, for example, benefits counseling. It can be extremely complex for anybody to understand. You really need to be an expert in that area, and it can become a barrier to some people with disabilities seeking employment. So we're going to have the employment navigator become an expert in that area to help support our students or our young adults with disabilities, to navigate that, to lead to continued competitive integrative employment in the future. And the last thing to speak to, which is important, is our collaboration for employment initiative. So this initiative is an adding to the work that's happening by bringing in the Office of Developmental Programs because we know that this support system is a 3 pronged support. How does education, how does employment and how does potential support services work collaboratively to support all students with disabilities to transition to competitive integrated employment? We each have our own languages, our own functions, our own case managers, but our case managers at the field level need to work together.  Education, the case manager and support coordinators need to work collaboratively to support these families, but we all speak a different language. It's difficult for all three to sit at the table at the same time. So through the state initiative between all three agencies, we will build that condition to happen. We are going to build conditions where the last series of trainings and webinars and intentional time to bring those three parties together at the regional level, to have a conversation, to understand the work that each other does, so they can strengthen the work they do together and to look at their regional needs and develop strategic plans based on their region on how to move this work forward for equity of all students. Because if you look across Pennsylvania, what's available in regions is not equitable and the need may not be the same based on the region. So we're going to have these parties come together, learn about each other, learn about the work that we do understand how they intersect just as similarly as we have between OVR and education, and then work to enhance what's available at the regional level across the state. So there's a lot more to come, but those are three of the top level things that will be coming in the next year.   Carol: So I just want to follow up on that for a minute. So for our listeners who are saying, Oh my gosh, I mean, this all sounds super exciting and they want to get a little more information, would you say Shannon is the best to go to the website? Is there a particular person they could reach out to? What would be the best way for other folks to get a little more information if they want to try to mirror something in their state?   Shannon: I think me and Carol have really kind of kept an open door, so. There's other states that may want to do this, we'd be open for that, to talk to them on some of our things that we have done, but the biggest thing is probably to look at the website, a lot of the resources that were developed. Everything from our menu to the toolkit. A lot of the resources are on our website for them to access.   Carol: Perfect. Thank you. I appreciate that.   Carol Clancy: If I could just comment on that on the transition website, there is something called transition tidbits that you can subscribe to. So whoever is interested, they can subscribe to transition tidbits and it'll give you everything updated that we're doing in Pennsylvania regarding transition. And we've already had hits across the world. So we have hits all over the country, but we've also had hits in Europe and other countries based on the work that's happening.   Carol: Good to know. That's awesome. So Missy, I'm over to you now.   Missy: Yeah. And I think you all kind of touched on what we were going to get too next because, you know, I think what we get so impressed by with what's happening in Pennsylvania is not just what you've wanted to do, but the actual implementation of it. So when it comes to the professional development or creating those sustainability pieces with regard to the tools or the positions, what's coming next for you guys? What's next?   Carol Clancy: Well, I think that both Shannon and I operate with the perspective that there really isn't any limit. So we have the 3 things we want to implement over the next year. But we already brainstorming what is the following year. But the priorities are these 3 initiatives coming forward. But we would anticipate as much as we can developing tools for the fields targeting deeper and deeper to our area of needs, such as focusing on particular populations. What students that have blind and visual impairments need is very different than what students with autism may need, or students with very complex abilities that may need some customized employment options. We certainly want to work and focused on developing them and developing the community. There is a lot of work at Pennsylvania, at the state level directed toward employment of people with disabilities. So we're aligning our work with the governor's initiative, which include initiative around preparing model employers. And Shannon, I'll let you talk about that because you've been much more involved in that, but we are going to ensure that the work that we're doing is lined up with the overall work at the state level to support employers.   Shannon: So as Carol said, we have so much going on here in Pennsylvania beyond just the agency. When you're talking about employment and individuals with disabilities like we are probably at the center of our purpose when it comes to WioA, IDEA,, we are employment first state, we have that twenty six. We're also very active, as Carol said, in a grant to really focus on employer engagement and over our course as a dual customer system, and that we work with customers with disabilities, but we also engage with employers to make sure and become that bridge for them. And here in Pennsylvania, we're at any year working with anywhere from 2,000 to 3,000 employers. When you look at all the placements that we do here in Pennsylvania, so the commitment that we have in trying to bring it to the next level is always something that we're trying to expand current relationships that we have with employers to see where we can do more, especially with high school students, because I think WIO was really a turning point for the VR system, and some will say that it was earthshaking because we was not working with students 14 to 21 years of age prior to this. So with the implementation of WIO, it really was a key changer for the VR system and the workforce system in itself that we would establish ourselves as part of the 6 core programs in the workforce development system to do more collaboration.   With that being said, we should be strategic planning together. We should be cutting down supplanting of services, duplication of services and there needs to be more coordination, collaboration. And with this during the MOA, it has allowed us over and education to do exactly some of the things that WIO intended in the workforce system. So what are we going to do? We're going to continue to do a lot of professional development. We're committed to that. You're no stronger than your workforce, me and Carol. We're doing the policy. The policy has to become alive and implementable and practical for the field. So we're committed to make sure that they have the toolkit that the tools that they need in order to implement the services and they need to understand the services. My hope is that we are cheerleaders for the staff that we're going to encourage. We're going to uplift them and give them the support that they need and understand what it is to implement the service and work with students and families here in the Commonwealth to make sure that the service is implemented seamlessly.   Carol: Well, what you two Are doing is so exciting, like this is unbelievable, and I'm thrilled and I'm sure our listeners are like going, Oh my gosh, but how do I start? So I want to ask both of you and I'm going to ask Carol first. The advice that you might have for states who are struggling because we still have that, I know we're seven and a half years in, but we still have states like we're not talking the Education Bureau, not talking or there's disagreements. Or maybe there's talking, but they're really not getting anything going. Do you have any advice for those states that are struggling?   Carol Clancy: Yes, I can. I think the number one thing to keep in mind is the students in which we serve. Keep them at the front of every conversation and the mission. Because if you get siloed in your own agency and the rules you need to follow or the missions behind your agency, you really can lose what your focus is supposed to be. So stay focused on the students and the outcomes that you are responsible for together. So that's a mission. Enough to work together is that there are outcomes that need to happen and that you both need to work toward that you're both accountable for. But I think most important and we've said this numerous times, but I'm just going to emphasize that enough. You can't forget the field and how it's implemented. Often at the state. We can create best practice in an ideal scenario, but it loses its translation in the implementation if you don't know what it looks like to be implemented in the field. So if they are on a place where I would say they need to start talking to the field, they need to start talking to the people doing the work right now. What are the barriers? Why isn't it working and working from that point forward to know what should be happening and their language should be? What do you need? Here are some options. What can I do to help? How can we support you and blah blah blah? Not this is how it's supposed to happen and do it. It has to be. What do you need to make this happen? And we're here to help you. And what's the best way we can help you to make this happen?   Carol: Well said, sage advice. So Shannon, I'm going to leave the last words of wisdom to you.   Shannon: So just a couple of things in agreement with everything that Carroll said. My background is business services, so I'm going to start right here. Relationships are key. Unless you have a relationship, you don't do business with people you don't trust. That is the same thing that we have been talking about through this whole process is about relationships. There has to be a starting point. If there is none, begin to get one. If you have one, strengthen it. I think that's our starting point because me and Carol prior to this do not have a working relationship whatsoever. So it was from the very beginning, but the MOU was our starting point. The second thing that made it successful or has made it successful is our commitment to this partnership and collaboration. Commitment has to start from the top. And when I tell you that it filters down through the layers, it becomes a very intentional document when working through and trying to create one, the MOU.. But just a partnership that we have because of the MOU. It created the environment where we were really strategically planning on what our partnership was going to look like. We were very clear on that expectation. Who was going to do what we wanted to make sure that we had supporting documentation for our staff. So we were very intentional in how we were going to roll out the MOU with our staff. We committed to communication, continuous communication. We don't know what we don't know and what we don't understand. We need to clarify, especially at this level, because if it's cloudy and unclear at the top, it's going to filter down through the agencies and implementing a policy. I'm in strong agreement with Carol saying that we did not want this employee to just be a document where it was just a policy. We met the requirement. We met the compliance piece of the obligation. We wanted to make sure that it was implementable, that it was a live living document that we were constantly put in our eyes on because we were committed to the mission of transitioning students that we were working with in both our systems and that we were working together to do that and that we were on the same page. And literally through this process, it continues to grow. And really, the sky is the limit for anyone that's willing to put in the time the work and the effort and the commitment to doing something as we have in Pennsylvania.   Carol: Well, I'm adding an exclamation point to that word commitment that you said over and over this morning. I just think that it's incredible and it's coming through loud and clear. So thanks to you both for taking the time today to discuss this really super important topic, and we wish you the best in all of your endeavors. Thanks much.   Missy: Thank you, guys.   Shannon: Thank you.   Carol Clancy: Thank you.   {Music} Speaker1: Conversations powered by VR one manager at a time, one minute at a time brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Tiki: Modern Tropical CocktailsBy Shannon Mustipher Intro: Welcome to the Cookery By The Book Podcast with Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York City, sitting at her dining room table talking to cookbook authors.Shannon: My name is Shannon Mustipher, and I am the author of Tiki: Modern Tropical Cocktails. When I'm not working on writing and developing cocktails, I'm the spiritual advisor, a.k.a. beverage director of Glady's Caribbean, which is a rum-focused bar in Crown Heights, Brooklyn. I also work as a consultant and educator on the spirit of topics and cocktails.Suzy Chase: This is the first cocktail recipe book written by a working, African American bartender and released by a major publisher in more than 100 years. When you decided to write this book, were you aware of that statistic?Shannon: Yeah, I was. Just a little background. I'm a big history buff, always have been, and I want to say maybe a decade ago, I became aware of a book called The Ideal Bartender by Tom Bullock, who published in 1919 and worked at the Pendennis Club in Louisville, Kentucky. He was the first and the last to publish this book, African American bartender to publish. There are a lot of bar books floating around, but that one, I just didn't ... I wasn't hearing of it, and my peers weren't reading it, and I just thought it was fascinating that it was like this little nugget of history. When I decided to write my book, it was five years ago, and I didn't know when it was going to be published based on the negotiations I was going through with my publisher, Rizzoli. For it to come out in 2019, a 100 years after Mr. Bullock's publication, just feels like there's something about it that was meant to be.Suzy Chase: I'm probably the only person in the world, but I never knew that Tiki was a huge category of cocktails. For some reason, I thought Tiki was like a vibe or a mindset. Talk a little bit about that. Shannon: It's all those. In regards to Tiki being a cocktail category, it's helpful to keep in mind that when Tiki came about in the late '30s, I mean the first Tiki bar was a spin-off of hinky dinks and that became Don the Beachcomber. Don the Beachcomber, his name was Ernest Gantt, was kind of a world traveler, rum aficionado. Came up with this idea of creating an escapist experience in his restaurant because this is at the end of the Great Depression, and people were looking for some relief from the day to day. The type of cocktails he came up with differed from every other in that you could blend a couple different spirits in one cocktail. That had never been done before. You could also blend a few different juices as opposed to most recipes that would have one or two at the most and various sweeteners and things of that nature. Those features of cocktail you're not seeing other styles of cocktail, and that's ... The recipes are like the core of what makes it different. Then there's other elements like the attention to vessels and presentation and things like fire and orchids and all this craziness that just not ... you're not seeing it in other styles of cocktail. From I would say a structural standpoint where the recipe concerned, there are some clear differentiations. Then of course in the presentation, you don't see that outside of Tiki. Suzy Chase: Last week Grub Street mentioned you saying you're a central figure in the Tiki renaissance in New York City. It's all about the appearances the element of surprise. Do you think this is a misunderstood tradition or a forgotten tradition or both? Shannon: I don't it's as misunderstood as it was when I got my start five years ago. I had to qualify in that on the west coast where Tiki originated, it never fully disappeared. Right? There was a moment where there was only a few bars that still had the authentic recipes. The reason for that was there was secrecy around those recipes, and they were coded because the restaurants and bars that served Tiki in the '40s were very popular, and the information regarding those products was considered propietary. It be like, think of the recipe or formula for Coca-Cola. That's proprietary. Right? When the people that created those recipes and worked in those restaurants retired, they didn't necessarily share the knowledge. This sort of knowledge begins to die off, and then add to that in the late '60s and '70s, American mixology in general was on the wane. It was associated with a generation that was a little bit older. Younger kids, the hippies so to speak, weren't interested in drinking cocktails like their parents did. They preferred recreational experiences. You know what I mean? Yeah, from the '70s through the '90s, there was no information really. You had Tiki tea in California and Los Angeles and Tonga Hut remained open, and there are other places. Outside of a handful of bars, people didn't really know the recipes anymore. The few that did, they weren't talking about it or giving out those recipes because that was just a culture, to keep them under lock and key. When Jeff Beachbum Berry began writing his book about 15, 20-odd years ago, he did the most extensive research into Tiki, went to all those bars, and looked for the rum bottles and scoured any document he could find and was able to reverse engineer and figure out what these drinks actually were. As his books became more popular, and people were more aware of what he was doing, then Tiki started to make a comeback. It wasn't reduced to oh, it's a sweet, tropical drink with an umbrella in it. People began to see the workings and the mechanics of this style of cocktail and understand and appreciate the level of craft that goes into taking eight or 10 ingredients and balancing it in a cocktail. Now, the cat's out of the bag. Right? We have the Jeff Beachbum Berry books. We have Smuggler's Cove, which does an excellent job of talking about not only the history of Tiki and showing us those recipes as well as Martin Cate's newer recipes. The information is out there now. Maybe there are people that still misunderstand it, but it just doesn't have to be that way anymore. Whereas 20 years ago, there just was scant means to educate yourself about it. Suzy Chase: Give us the short history of rum. Shannon: Yeah, sure. Rum is a byproduct of the sugar industry. When European powers began to colonize the Americas, the top priority was to find a cash crop or some other resource that would provide a large stream of revenue, big stream of revenue. Initially the thought was gold, and that didn't really work out. There was experimentation with various things, rice and cotton. Sugar was the one, especially in the Caribbean, that had the highest yield. Just some context, the kind of revenue that was coming out of just Barbados or Jamaica alone by the late 19th century, was on par with oil boom or the gold rush and what took place in Silicon Valley more recently. There had never been a moment in the history of the world where there was such a big shift in the economy. It's important to remember that rum is not just a style or a category of spirit that came about because that's what someone wanted to make. They had this idea in mind of a flavor profile and certainly wanted to craft. It's a byproduct and another way to add revenue to a sugar plantation, their operation. For who are less familiar, in order to produce rum you need molasses or you could use fresh cane juice, but rum as we know it in the Caribbean came about when planters were looking for a way to utilize molasses which was regarded as a waste product. They discovered that you could ferment it and then distill it. This began in earnest around 1705. Prior to that, in the earlier part of the 17th century, there was a little bit of rum production on the islands, but it was basically moonshine. It wasn't packaged. It wasn't bottled. People didn't regard it as a spirit category in the way that we look at spirits today. It was just, this is what we have to drink in terms of alcohol because we can't make beer here. It's too expensive to bring over wine. In fact, the wine doesn't really travel well in the heat. This all began to change, and rum started moving towards how we think of it in a modern sense in 1650 when Jamaica was taken by the British. The British adopted rum as the liquid that they will give out in their daily ration, which became a form of payment in addition to a supplement to the really poor diet that the sailors had on board. By 1750, the Navy had grown to such an extent that they could no longer source the rums themselves from the islands, but they hired an outside firm called [ED & Man 00:11:08]. This firm would source the liquid from various islands and then take them over to London. They created a proprietary blend, and they would age it there. Meanwhile, for those of you who don't know, brands the way we think of them today, they didn't exist back then. A distiller didn't have a face or a label. They didn't make liquid and put it in a bottle and sell it. They'd make liquid and sell it to brokers, and the brokers would create the brands and sell the products. At this time, there was a robust business around that in the scotch and port and sherry categories in London. These merchants caught on to the rum, and they realized that it was par on with single malt scotch, especially the rums from Jamaica which are highly prized, because they had a really special aroma and heavy body due to their production processes. By 1820s, this is when you start to see rum appear as a commercial product in Europe. To this day in the Netherlands and in Germany, the preference for rum [inaudible 00:12:23] Jamaica styles that haven't differed too much from that time. By 1860s, then you start to see rum become a big global business, do brands like Bacardi. Where we are today is we are getting back to looking at the earliest styles of productions of rum. We want what we consider to be more authentic expressions that haven't had sugar added and are made on stills or in facilities that have been operation for 200 or 300 years. It's a really great moment for the category, especially where Tiki is concerned, we can make the recipes the way they were intended. There was a moment in the '70s through the early '90s where the rums that were in the original recipes were not available in the U.S. You could attempt to make the drinks, but you were not really going to really hit it. Now, we can make those drinks again. Suzy Chase: In opinion, what's a good rum to start off with if you're not familiar with rum? Shannon: Well, here's the thing. Rum is a huge category. You can make it in over 90 countries. I compare it to wine in that ... Let's say you look at gin and whiskey. Sure, there are some variations and different brands and styles, but it's not such a huge spectrum of rum. You can get something that's like really light and dry and clean, or you can get really fruity or earthy and funky or on the sweeter side depending on how it's produced. To answer that question, I'd say you have start at least five, because if you are trying to pick out a starter, there's so many places to start. If you take one bottle or one style, you're not ... It doesn't really capture what rum is about. With that in mind, I would suggest picking up a spectrum of rums. Right? On one hand, you want to start with say a lighter rum. For that, I would suggest Rhum Barbancourt [bonk 00:14:33] from Haiti. It's made from fresh pressed juice. Has a little bit of a delicate gassiness and fuller element to it. You can sip it neat. You can put it in cocktails. It's really easy to work with and to enjoy. From there, I would suggest picking up a bottle of an un-aged overproof English style rum, and that would most likely be Jamaican rum. That could be Rum Fire or Wray & Nephew. If you're lucky enough to go to Grenada, I really love the River Antoine. What that bottle is going to do for you is you're not necessarily going to drink it by itself. If you want to have more intensity, then you'll need a rum like that. In terms of something that's just more like everyday drinking rum, cocktail or otherwise, I would suggest picking up a Barbadian rum or a Bajan style rum, because those strike a nice balance between being fuller bodied and rich, but also really clean and smooth and elegant and super easy. The drinking culture in the islands differ from the island to island. That's reflected in the styles. In Barbados, they have this pastime called liming, which means that you gather with your friends at a little shack called a rum shop, and you sip rum all day. Maybe you use mixers, but for them it's not ... rum isn't cocktailing. Rum is just spending time with friends. Right? Then from there I would suggest you would want pick up a rhum agricole from Martinique or one of the former French territories. Those are really cool. They're made from fresh cane juice like the Barbancourt I mentioned, but their standards of production, they have a DLC around it. They're very particular about what you're going taste in the glass because they want to highlight and emphasize the [tarare 00:16:27] of their respective geographic areas. There's also a lot of influence from Armagnac and Cognac production there. With the agricoles, you get to see a really high level of production and crafted. You don't typically associate with rums, but I think trying those will shift your perception around what you think rum is in a positive way. Lastly, some people prefer what they would call a smoother, rounder, richer type of spirit. I find that people that prefer whiskey have a tendency to enjoy Spanish-style rums which undergo more time in the barrel because the Spanish approach is more influence by wine and sherry where the base liquid is not what's emphasized, but what's emphasized is a barrel regimen and the house style and the skill of the blender. That's what they want you to taste in the end. Suzy Chase: Yeah. I read in the book that for example, Jamaican rums have kind of grassy notes, and that's something you wouldn't even think about with rum. Shannon: That's why I love it. Prior to opening Gladys and working in that program five years ago, I was into a pre-prohibition era cocktails and gin and whiskey and all that stuff. I still enjoy it on occasion, but if God came to me and told me that from here on out I was confined to only drinking one spirit category, I'd happily choose rum because there's one for everybody and for every mood or hour or what have you. If I want something that is really dry and light and crisp, I can find it in the rum category. If I want something that's big and bold and chewy or even smokey, I can find that in rum as well. If I just had gin for instance, the spectrum of options is limited. Suzy Chase: In Tiki, chapter one kicks off with foundational cocktails. What are those? Shannon: Where rum is concerned, there's what we call the holy trinity, which is rum, sugar, and lime. They just work really well together in the earliest rum drinks. The Navy grog, that's rum, sugar, and lime. The Caipirinha, it's made with Cachaça so it's not technically rum, but the Cachaça is sugar and lime. The same is true for the [Dakaiti 00:19:00], which rum, sugar, and lime. In those foundational drinks, we walk through those cocktails so that you can taste the different styles of rum and get a sense for how those rums behave. The underlying elements are more or less the same. Also, those drink a base template for others cocktails that follow, and so the bulk of Tiki drinks have those three elements and them build from there. Suzy Chase: There's a technique in the book called fat washing spirits. What does that mean? Shannon: It's an infusion. It was pioneered by Don Lee who is a partner in Existing Conditions currently and got his start at PDT. With fat washing, you take an oil. It could be derived from an animal. Don Lee's was smoked bacon fat. I do a lot of vegan fat washes, so I love coconut oil. Essentially you I guess steep or infuse the liquid with the oil for a 12-hour period at room temperature, and then you freeze it so that the solids separate. They come to the top. You skim it off. You strain it. What happens is that the liquid is now, it has those fat molecules in it. It takes on a different texture and a creamier mouth feel. Milk punches utilizes the same principle. They're very labor intensive. It requires multiple steps and a number of ingredients and a couple days to achieve that result. Yeah, milks punches which were popular in the 18th century, have made a little bit of a comeback in the modern bar, is where that idea is derived. Fat washing with oils is much faster and more consistent. Suzy Chase: You created a cocktail inspired by a reggae song. Tell us about that. Shannon: It's one of my favorite cocktails actually. It's called the Kingston Soundsystem. I was approached by Punch Magazine to pick a reggae song and make a cocktail. I really love Skylarking by Horace Man. It's a really chill, laid back, kind of lazy day kind of song. I was like, okay. There's a bird reference here. I love the Jungle Bird. I'm going come up with an unusual twist on it. The idea was kind of like a white angelonia. I wanted to make a white Jungle Bird. For those who are not familiar with the cocktail, they Jungle Bird has aged Jamaican rum. It has Campari, lime, and pineapple. I looked at each of those elements and went on the other end of the spectrum. Rather than aged Jamaica rum, I used an un-age higher proof Jamaica rum. It's call Rum Fire. Instead of Campari, I used a gentian liqueur called Suze. I love that stuff. A consumer right now, the American public is not too hip to it, but I think it's wonderful. I use it kind of in a way, a lot of people have used St. Germain in the past, which is elderflower liqueur, but way too sweet for my tastes. I want something dryer. That's stands in for the Campari. Rather than pineapple, I wanted to again reference Jamaica so I use Soursop. Soursop is a large fruit about the size of a big cantaloupe, and it has little prickles on it. Kind of think of it as a prickly pear. It has a really wonderful, delicate, floral aroma in the nose. It's delightful for those who have not tried it. Then again, not very sweet. Kind of tastes cross between a pear and an apple, but it has a really clean, dry finish on it. There's really nothing else like it. Then of course, there's a lime. The result is a drink that follows the Jungle Bird template, but takes it in a dryer, more herbaceous direction. Suzy Chase: Do you think we can find these ingredients in our local grocery store or liquor store/Whole Foods? Shannon: It depends on where you live. Soursop, you'll find it in Caribbean stores or Asian stores. If you can't find the juice, you can usually find it as a frozen concentrate. That would be Goya or [lafame 00:23:43]. Then where Suze is concerned, yeah, if you live in an area where you can get to a decent liquor store that has Craft products, you'll find it. Suzy Chase: As a bartender, what's the most annoying request you get the most?Shannon: I don't. I like bar-Suzy Chase: Nothing? Shannon: You know how some people are like, "Oh my God, you're ordering a Mojito now. It's busy." For me, I'm there to serve the guests and I'm delighted to do it. You're there to get what you want, and that's why I'm there, to give you what you want. Case in point. I was doing a pop-up, and it was Tiki drinks. Someone wanted a Martini. I was so excited because she was getting what she wanted. I made a her what I hoped was a really good Martini. I really enjoyed it and so did she. Suzy Chase: They're more than 60 beautiful color photographs in this book. You call Tiki a theater for the senses, and you get such a good feel for that with Noah Fecks' photos. Tell us about your friendship with him. Shannon: It's a beautiful one. We met through a mutual friend, Nicole Taylor. She's the author of the Up South cookbook. Suzy Chase: She's amazing. Shannon: Oh, God. I want to be her when I grow up. Suzy Chase: Me too. Shannon: I met her a decade ago. She's just so dynamic and has forged her own path. She's totally Nicole and just ... I don't know. I can't go on enough about her. I had a birthday party and she invited him to tag along. She predicted that we would quote unquote ride off into sunset together. We hit it off that night, and we're chatting. He approached me shortly thereafter about doing some test shoots at Gladys because he shoots a lot of food. He wanted to added some liquor and cocktail content to his book. The shoots went really well. I worked in the photo industry for the first five years of living in New York as a style and prop assistant. I knew procedures of how a shoot would go. It was really smooth and the images were beautiful. Shortly after that, he suggested that we do this book with Rizzoli. Suzy Chase: I don't know how long this book took you, but there is a full color photo with every cocktail in this book. I can't even imagine the work that went into that. Shannon: Well, I mean, had I know how much work was going to go into it, I don't know if I would have agreed to do it. Suzy Chase: I mean, just looking at it I just think, wow, that's a lot of work, but it's gorgeous. Shannon: I mean, to be fair, I believe that that work is not just what I did in the two years that I was writing it and producing a book, but in the years prior that I spent studying visual art and practicing as an artist, I went to [Ritzies 00:26:52], studied painting and art history. I started drawing when I was five. I was always making things. The book was really exciting in that not was I able to share my recipes and more importantly, my approach to flavors and ingredients, but also could indulge that part of me that wanted to create images. That was the intention behind the photography in the book. Now, you look at a lot of cocktail photography and it follows a formula. It's like, okay, here's a drink on a bar or against some kind of backdrop or what have you, and that's pretty much it. Because we're working in Tiki, we wanted to go beyond and create vignettes that would evoke a story. Suzy Chase: Well, you did it. It feels like it's a culmination of your fashion background and your mixology background. This is all of that in one book. Shannon: Oh, yeah. When I closed my studio shortly before I moved in New York 12 years ago, I had a lot of friends around me who were dismayed because, "You're so good. Why are you doing this?" I had various reasons. I didn't think that what I refer to as the art industry was for me. One of my biggest reservations around it was the accessibility of that work and the class issues around it. Right? Where do most people go to see art? They go to galleries. They go to museums. Museums are wonderful institutions, but there are a lot of people that can't afford to go to a museum, or culturally it's just not an inviting place for certain individuals. When you go deeper than that, when it's time to buy artwork, that's again confined to a class of people. Taken further, when a collector acquires a work, doesn't necessarily get seen. I think the statistic is that 70 to 80% of all the artwork is in storage. This idea of making this thing for a select few is probably just going to sit in a dark room. That's not where I wanted to put my energy, and that's not how I want to share what I had to say in the world. With that being said, being able to make a cocktail book where my creativity could be there and it was very accessible to people. I mean, a cocktail is like 10 or 15 bucks. Most people can do that every once in a while, was really gratifying. Suzy Chase: Now to my segment called my last meal. What would you have for you last supper, and what cocktail would you have with it? Shannon: I'm a pretty simple person. I would have ostrich steak. Suzy Chase: That's simple? I thought you were going to be, "I'll just have a taco." You say ostrich steak. That's so interesting. Shannon: It's so delicious. You ever had it? Suzy Chase: No. Shannon: It's going to change your life. Okay. Suzy Chase: Where do you get that? Shannon: Okay, so I had it in South Africa. I think that if you live in Africa or certain parts of the world, I mean, I think you can get ostrich here. The whole point is in South Africa, it's not a big deal. That's the meat that they have. Right? Like we have cows, they have ostrich. It's like a steak, but the texture ... I don't know. I can't even tell you why it was so good. I'd do that and pair it with a nice glass of wine. Suzy Chase: Not rum? Shannon: No. Suzy Chase: Wow. What kind of wine? You're just throwing me off today. Shannon: What kind of wine? Probably a Zen or ... No, that's too sweet. I don't know. Something kind of dusty, maybe [Linwood 00:31:00]. I used to work in wine. I still enjoy it. Yeah, I mean, rum's great, but I just don't if it would go that good with the steak. Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web, social media and in Brooklyn? Shannon: My website, Shannon dot ... shannonmustipher.com. It's not a dot. That's my email. On Instagram, same thing. Just Shannon Mustipher. I don't have an alias. I'm like, no ... I want you to find me. It's not like, what's her handle? Just my first, I say. Put it into Google. You'll find me. Suzy Chase: It's M-U-S-T-I-P-H-E-R for everyone out there. I also want to remind everyone that we're going to be doing a free live Tiki talk and book signing at Lizzyoung Bookseller in Cobble Hill in Brooklyn on Thursday, May 30th. Look for more information on my Instagram and Shannon's, and we we hope to see you there. Thank you so much, Shannon, for coming on Cookery By the Book Podcast. Shannon: Suzy, it was a pleasure. Thank you for taking the time, and I look forward to seeing you next Thursday. Outro: Follow Suzy Chase on Instagram at Cookery By the Book, and subscribe at cookerybythebook.com or in Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening to Cookery By the Book Podcast, the only podcast devoted to cookbooks since 2015.

The high-quality talent of the team that brought Die Hard to the screen is well-recognized. But to many, the secret ingredient to the movie's success was Bruce Willis and his portrayal of John McClane, an everyman police officer from New York, trapped in Nakatomi Tower at exactly the wrong time – and without even shoes on his feet. McClane takes on the role of reluctant hero to save his wife and the other innocent hostages, and defeat German terrorist-thief Hans Gruber. The McClane character has stuck in audiences' memories ever since, and sparked a change in how action heroes are characterized. So what makes John McClane so special? How much of it is his character, how much of it is the influence of other legendary heroes before him, and how much of it is Willis bringing the role to life?  Let us know what you think! Drop us a line at diehardwithapodcast@gmail.com, or visit our site at www.diehardwithapodcast.com   Links Baroness Von Sketch's Die Hard sketch Spin Magazine, How So I Married an Axe Murderer Wrecked One Writer’s Vision, Lost Several Stars, Bombed at the Box Office, and Became a Classic Anyway by Maggie Serota Halloween Unmasked on The Ringer network, with Amy Nicholson   Source Links A/V Club, Die Hard humanized (and perfected) the action movie A/V Club, The novel that inspired Die Hard has its structure, but none of its holiday spirit American Film Institute, 100 Greatest Heroes and Villains Another Angry Woman, Making fists with your toes: Towards a feminist analysis of Die Hard Deep Focus Review, The Definitives: Die Hard Empire, Empire Essay: Die Hard Review Film School Rejects, 31 Things We Learned From the ‘Die Hard’ Commentary Track MovieTime Guru, Die Hard: First Impressions Last Script Secrets, Die Hard analysis The Guardian, Die Hard at 30: how it remains the quintessential American action movie The Internet Movie Script Database, Die Hard shooting script Vulture, How Die Hard Changed the Action Game   Guests Reed Fish Jeremiah Friedman Shannon Hubbell Sasha Perl-Raver Adam Sternbergh Katie Walsh Scott Wampler   Get In Touch Email Website Twitter Facebook Instagram Patreon   Full Episode Transcript Welcome to the podcast, pal. My name is Simone Chavoor, and thank you for joining me for Die Hard With a Podcast! The show that examines the best American action movie of all time: Die Hard. This is episode three of the show, and I wanted to thank you all again for the amazing response we got for the last episode. I’ve been having a lot of fun talking with people about Die Hard for the podcast. First of all, the fact that people get SO EXCITED to talk about Die Hard and have SO MANY thoughts on it gets me so amped up. I’m telling you, if you’re socially awkward like me, just ask somebody what they think about Die Hard and you can have an amazing conversation for an hour and feel like you just made a new friend. Some of the folks I’ve talked to are friends I’ve had for years, and then sometimes they recommend their own friends, like, “you gotta talk to this guy, he fucking loves Die Hard,” and some have been people I’ve cold-emailed or cold-Tweeted who say yes to talking to a perfect stranger because they get to talk about Die Hard and have someone actually listen to them. And we just get to be big nerds about something we love, and it’s amazing. And also, now everyone knows how much I love Die Hard and everyone’s sending me Die Hard things they see on the internet and I’m loving it. Like I’m a pretty easy person to figure out; if you see something that’s Star Wars, or tiki, or horror movie, or Nine Inch Nails, or pizza, or kitty cat-related online, that’s gonna make my day. But now people know that Die Hard is one of my Things I Like, so they’re passing along the best stuff. One thing a friend sent me was this sketch by the comedy troupe Baroness Von Sketch, where this lady is at a party, complaining to her friend that she can’t meet guys, and her friend says she knows a trick. She stands back and says “OH MY GOD I CAN’T BELIEVE YOU HAVEN’T SEEN DIE HARD,” and then alllll the dudes come flocking. I almost died. Except now I know why I’m single, because clearly I’m doing the EXACT OPPOSITE. But that’s okay, I’m having too good of a time lady-splaining Die Hard to you all. Speaking of lady-splaining… I’ve had such a great response from ladies who are excited to see themselves represented in this genre. Die Hard gets thought of as a bro movie. And I am definitely not a bro. I got an email from a listener, Cindy, who says: I also really wanted to express how exhilarated I am that you are of the womanly persuasion. I am also a woman who loves Die Hard, and I know there are plenty of us out there, but that's not the popular perception. I've dearly wanted the perspective of other women who actually enjoy the film--it seems like millennial women are either turned off by the lone-hero-cop narrative, which I understand, or see Die Hard as the ultimate annoying dudebro movie, which is frustrating. It warms my heart, like literally makes it feel all fuzzy and nice, that this podcast exists, with a woman helming the way. Yes, girl. I absolutely feel you. And I wanted to give two quick shouts to two other women who are doing some exciting work. Maggie Serota wrote a piece for Spin magazine titled, “How So I Married an Axe Murderer Wrecked One Writer’s Vision, Lost Several Stars, Bombed at the Box Office, and Became a Classic Anyway.” So I Married an Axe Murderer is another favorite movie of mine – Mike Meyers is so, so funny, and I have immense nostalgia for the 90s and also love any movie set in the Bay Area. Maggie wrote the piece for the movie’s 25th anniversary, but also because it’s one of her all-time favorite movies. There’ll be a link in the show notes; go check that out. Also, Amy Nicholson, who you know from the podcasts The Canon and Unspooled, is doing an 8-part series called Halloween Unmasked for The Ringer podcast network, which is all about, obviously, the movie Halloween. I love horror movies, but Halloween was never one of my favorites, so I’m letting Amy take me away in her deep dive on the film. The podcast premiered on October 1st, so catch up on the first three episodes now. So, if you want to send me funny links and memes about Die Hard, or if you have other suggestions for female film critics’ works, drop me a line! Email Website Twitter Facebook Instagram And if you like this show, kick me a buck or two on Patreon. Patreon helps to offset the cost of doing this show, not just in pure dollars and cents, but for the sheer amount of time this podcast takes to put together. This is my first solo project, and although I have the wonderful, amazing support of my guests and fans, it still takes a lot of time researching, writing, recording, and editing. Patreon Shout out to our contributors… Cindy, who sent that lovely email earlier, and Paul! And special thanks to Paul for his support, as his encouragement means a lot to me on this particular project. Thank you so much! You can also support Die Hard With a Podcast by leaving a review on iTunes. With more starred ratings and written reviews, the show becomes more visible to other potential listeners, so please share the love and let me know what you think! All right. On to our main topic. When we last left off, we talked about Die Hard’s place in the 80s action movie ecosystem. How it was molded by the conventions of the genre at the time, but also how it broke the mold – and improved upon it. There was a lot that elevated Die Hard beyond a conventional, empty, popcorn-chomp of an action movie. There was the amazingly neat and efficient script, the gorgeous work of cinematographer Jan De Bont, the genius of John McTiernan’s directing. But to many, the secret ingredient was Bruce Willis and his character of John McClane. So what makes John McClane so special? How much of it is his character, and how much of it is Willis bringing the role to life? Let’s take a step back. Before we figure out why McClane is an iconic action movie hero, let’s talk about what makes a good hero in any story. There’s been so much written about the Hero’s Journey, and archetypes and, well, I’m no Joseph Campbell. I think, for our purposes, we can really really really simplify it down to this: a hero is someone who is undergoing some sort of ordeal, and who is someone we root for. We root for them because we relate to them in some way, and view them with a mix of admiration and sympathy. To contextualize things a bit, let’s look at The American Film Institute’s 100 Greatest Heroes and Villains list. Now unfortunately, our John McClane didn’t make the list (although Hans Gruber came in 46th on the Villains list). But let’s look at the top 5: 1. Atticus Finch, To Kill a Mockingbird 2. Indiana Jones 3. James Bond 4. Rick Blaine, Casablanca 5. Will Kane, High Noon All men from different backgrounds, but who fall within our definition of hero. Further on in this episode, at least three of these heroes come up in comparison to John McClane. So, even though John himself doesn’t make the list, him being compared to Indiana Jones, Rick Blaine, and Will Kane on the regular, means he’s doing pretty all right. In order to root for our hero, the audience needs to see themselves in his shoes – or lack thereof. Someone who’s perfect is unrealistic, unbelievable – and really, don’t the people who pretend to be perfect kinda bug you? But a hero with flaws, a hero who’s the underdog – we want to see them overcome their obstacles. JEREMIAH FRIEDMAN I’m Jeremiah Friedman, and I’m a screenwriter. Mostly working on the film side of things. I don't know if you can set out to create an iconic movie hero. I mean I guess you can set out to create an iconic movie hero. Some of it feels like, you know, a little bit of like lightning in a bottle. I think, you want something that hasn't been seen before, and that feels emotionally relatable to people. They feel like they get that guy or that woman, and they just want to root for them. And I think that the original Die Hard, if we're going old school and not 2-3-4-5, what makes McClane so compelling is he's such an underdog you can root for the entire movie, and you just feel like he has the whole world against him. Sasha Perl-Raver, writer, correspondent, and the host of FX’s Movie Download. SASHA PERL-RAVER So I think that the best heroes have to be both heroic and flawed. I mean, I think about everybody from obviously John McClane, but even to Alexander Hamilton in the Hamilton musical, you’ve got somebody who is exceptional but has this one thing that is inevitably also their downfall. When you think of even Murtaugh and Riggs in Lethal Weapon – Mel Gibson’s character, the fact that he’s so broken, he’s on the verge of psychosis. He is a great cop and an excellent fighter and has all this combat training, but also comes from this incredibly fractured place, is what makes him really interesting. I think that heroes in general have to do the things that we wish we would do, say the things we wish we would say, and somehow manage the impossible. But they have to be somebody who you either want to emulate or relate to. I think those are all the key characteristics that make a great hero. First impressions are incredibly important, especially when meeting our hero for the first time. John McClane went through several iterations from his beginnings on the pages of a novel to the script to the screen. Let’s take a look at how McClane is introduced to us. In the 1979 novel Nothing Lasts Forever, written by Roderick Thorp, John McClane is actually Joe Leland, a retired cop turned private detective. Far from the handsome 30-something McClane we get in the movie, Leland is an older man – if you’ll recall, Frank Sinatra was offered a chance to reprise his version of Leland from his previous film The Detective – and Sinatra was 73 years old at the time. He turned it down. The book opens with him in the back of a cab on the way to the airport… aaand the cab has just crashed in a snowy fender-bender. There’s little physical description of Leland in the book, although we’re told he’s a “mature man” – and it makes sense, given that he’s trying to make his flight to Los Angeles to see his grown daughter and her children. But we quickly learn what kind of man Leland is. After his cab gets in an accident, Leland’s instant dislike for the driver of the station wagon his cab has hit mixes with his anxiety about missing his flight. The other man is a racist bully who tries to push the cab off the road as they try to leave – and holy shit, Leland just goes ahead and pulls his gun on him so he and his cab driver can make it to the terminal on time. But far from being a badass, Leland immediately regrets his impulsive action, and is left shaken as the adrenaline leaves him. He makes his his flight, and strikes up a flirtation with the stewardess, Kathi – spelled with an “i.” He kisses her (it’s okay, his ex-wife is long dead), and gets her number so they can meet up later. It’s actually kind of sweet. In the script and on the screen, we meet John McClane already at the end of his flight. On the page, he’s described as “mid-thirties, good-looking, athletic and tired from his trip. He sits by the window. His relief on landing is subtle but we notice.” The businessman next to him takes this opportunity to offer his advice about taking off his shoes and making “fists with his toes,” as we all remember. The plane finishes taxiing, and they begin to disembark. In the first draft: McClane is calm and reassuring as he flashes his badge and heads off the plane – after helping a lady with her bags. In the shooting script, he’s a little more relaxed, a little cockier. McClane is definitely more of a rascal here, a funny guy, a ladykiller. While the bit with the stewardess is pretty much cut out of the final film, let’s listen to how this scene plays out. [CLIP - DIE HARD - McCLANE ON THE PLANE] There’s a lot of work being done in these opening moments. It’s part of what’s so, so good about the Die Hard script. In under two minutes, we learn a lot about John McClane. The very first thing we see is something that comes up over and over again when discussing McClane’s character: he’s vulnerable. He’s afraid of flying, and it’s noticeable enough that the guy sitting next to him feels the need to reassure him, offer him advice. We also quickly learn: He’s a married man with kids (from the wedding ring on his finger, the teddy bear he’s carrying, and his disinterest in pursuing things with the stewardess he locks eyes with as he exits) He’s still good looking though, given the eyefuck the stewardess gives him He’s a policeman from New York with over a decade of experience He’s armed (I guess being armed on a plane was cool in 1988; I don’t know, I was born in ‘83 so this concept is still really weird to me) He’s a bit of a wiseguy, using humor to break the tension as the businessman becomes visibly concerned over that gun There are so many other ways that McClane could have been introduced. We could have seen him in the cab ride to the airport. We could have seen him deep in conversation with the stewardess. We could have even seen him already in Los Angeles, or even alllll the way back in New York before he even began his trip. But here, we cut right to the chase, and are shown the most important things we need to know just as the main action starts. John McClane’s vulnerability is probably the number one character trait that comes up when discussing him. But a close second is his being “a guy.” He’s a guy, he’s a dude, he’s an everyman. He’s someone you know; he’s someone like you. He’s relatable. JEREMIAH FRIEDMAN He's not super jacked up, he seems more like an ordinary guy more or less. And he's got relatable issues. He's got a problem with his marriage, he kind of fucked up his marriage. He's got this blue collar job that seem pretty routine, he's going to be crashing on a friend's couch. He's kind of a fish out of water, which is a big part of the movie too. He doesn't feel anything like Los Angeles as Los Angeles as portrayed in the movie. He's right at the Christmas party, he's uncomfortable in the limo. Everything that gets thrown at him is outside of his comfort zone. And you are very much with him the whole movie. So you're kind of along for the ride and on his side to a certain extent. We’ve all been there. We’ve all hated flying, we’ve all argued with our significant others, we’ve all been at parties we don’t want to be at. We’ve been John McClane. And so when John is faced with extraordinary circumstances, it leads the audience to put themselves into John’s place and wonder what they would do. According to Vulture.com, “Die Hard is rightly situated as a visceral experience because John McClane becomes such a direct surrogate for the audience; it becomes a ‘what would you do’ scenario, and an exercise in improvisation. John McClane is a street cop, flying through this thing by the seat of his pants, just like we would.” Scott Wampler, news editor at Birth. Movies. Death., and host of the Trying Times podcast. SCOTT WAMPLER And, as you already pointed out the weakness that John shows during that first movie in particular, and the fear and the indecisiveness, all of that is key to making him and every man character, but also key to making him relatable to the audience. You can absolutely imagine yourself in John McClane shoes. He definitely does some heroic shit. He does some shit that I would probably be too cowardly to do. But, also like put in that position where you're running on adrenaline, I could feasibly imagine myself doing a lot of the stuff that John McClane does. Not beating up any like six-foot-five Russians, definitely, you know, but like the other stuff. You know, he’s wiley, he thinks on his feet, he’s a smart guy. He’s clever. REED FISH I’m Reed Fish, I’m a director and screenwriter. I feel like John McClane, to me, was not an emotionally relatable character, but I feel like in the predicament that he was in, it was relatable to me because I felt like, Oh, you know, if push came to shove I could probably do those things too. Where in a typical Schwarzenegger movie, like in Predator or something, I don't think there was ever a moment where I was like, Oh yeah I think I could do that. So I feel like John McClane is a proxy for someone who, you're like me and you think you're witty, you think you're clever, you think you're smart. Well, I certainly I could outsmart Hans Gruber. Well except I'm bigger so I don't think I could have fit in that air shaft. SIMONE: Well it's a lot easier to picture yourself like I can probably move a panel on an elevator shaft, but I don't think I could wrestle a helicopter out of the sky. REED: Yeah, yeah, basically. And I remember in Commando, Schwarzenegger jumps off the airplane as it’s taking off, and jumps into a swamp. And you’re like, okay – not that you think he could do that, but you think yeah, I’m not going to do that. So I would have just been on the plane to South America. As we mentioned previously, that relatability comes not just through John looking and acting realistically, but also because he’s not a perfect person. He’s fucked up. SCOTT WAMPLER I think John McClane’s kind of an asshole, you know, but he’s a loveable asshole, you know? When John McClane is an asshole to people, they kinda had it coming. You know what I mean? Like particularly in the case of the terrorists, but also him giving sass to Ellis, or whatever. He's definitely more of a dick to his wife and he needs to be. But also just to speak as a devil's advocate here we don't – we could some of their backstory, but we don't know everything that happened between John and Holly up until that point. I'm sure he has his own reasons to be mad, and I'm not here to judge them. But he strikes me as a likable guy. Definitely a guy I would get a beer with. I would love to ask this guy about his history and his stories. He’s personable. He’s an asshole, but he’s personable. REED FISH John McClane is kind of a dick. And I was quite struck by that, just how much of a dick he was in the setup of the movie, in terms of the relationship with his wife and his non-existent relationship with his kids. He's not someone I really wanted to succeed. I did not find him sympathetic. But, that said, once it gets going, and he's ingenious, and he's clever, and obviously Bruce Willis at that moment had quite a lot of charisma, by the end, you are pulling for him. Even though for me, it was kind of bittersweet because you're like, oh, he's such a dick. And here’s the thing: John McClane knows he’s a dick. And he hates himself for it, and he can’t get out of his own way. As John McTiernan and Bruce Willis worked on the character, they came to the realization that at his core, John McClane is a man who does not like himself very much, but is doing the best he can in a bad situation. SASHA PERL-RAVER In 80s action movies, again, like Lethal Weapon, Die Hard, that self-loathing is something that propels these characters to do something beyond themselves, which is sort of interesting. Like, I am not good enough to survive, so all of these other people should survive instead of me. Because any normal rational human being would not do the stuff that John McClane does, except that he feels he is not worthy of anything else. Until he jumps off the roof and ties the fire hose around his stomach and says please don't let me die. That's the one time where you're like, Oh, he doesn't have a death-wish, he's not a complete maniac, he’s still trying to get through it. But yeah, the self-loathing is I think a great character trait. But the key to John’s success within the plot is his flaws. The very characteristics that drive his wife, his captain, the LAPD down on the ground completely crazy are the ones that undo Hans Gruber and his plan. Adam Sternbergh, novelist, contributing editor to New York Magazine, and pop culture journalist. ADAM STERNBERGH If you were to renumberate his flaws, he’s very stubborn. But then in a sense all the things that are presented as personality flaws in the beginning like his sort of pig-headedness and unwillingness to capitulate to his wife’s career decisions and things like that, they end up sort of being qualities that help him prevail because he’s just so ridiculously persistent against these terrorists. Yep. Just being annoying is enough to start unravelling the calm, cool, collected terrorists. So I mentioned last episode that I created a Die Hard D&D character alignment chart, because I am a huge nerd. It actually ended up being pretty helpful as I looked more into McClane’s character. So, in case you haven’t played Dungeons and Dragons before, a character alignment chart is chart that categorizes the “ethical and moral perspectives of player characters, non-player characters, and creatures.” It helps you create a character, and gives you guidelines to how a character will behave and react to new situations. If you look at it, it’s nine squares in a three-by-three grid. Each square has a character in it along with their alignment, which is determined by where it sits on the rows and columns of the chart. The first row is “lawful.” Using the third edition of Dungeons and Dragons rules, lawful “implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closed-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability.” The second row is “neutral.” The third row is “chaotic.” This “implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility.” Switching directions, the first column is “good.” Should be pretty self-explanatory, but, just in case, it “implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.” The second column is “neutral.” The third column is “evil.” This “implies harming, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient or if it can be set up. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some malevolent deity or master.” Whether or not you ever actually play D&D, I really recommend learning more about character alignments. It’s not a perfect system for creating deep, complex characters, but if you’re a writer or just a fan of storytelling, it can unlock some interesting insights. I categorized John McClane as “chaotic good.” But Simone, you say, John McClane is a police officer! Shouldn’t he be lawful? Well, not really. He’s a police officer, yes, but we know he doesn’t always play by the rules. [CLIP - DIE HARD - TONY AND JOHN - YOU’RE A POLICEMAN] We know that John improvises, taking in the situation as it lies and creating ad hoc solutions just to get through, moment to moment. He doesn’t have a long-term plan other than to vaguely somehow rescue Holly and the other hostages if possible. That John is also characterized as “good” is pretty obvious. He doesn’t want to hurt anyone if he doesn’t have to, and he wants to protect his wife and other innocent people. Even if those people aren’t exactly on his side. [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN TRIES TO CALL OFF THE FBI] So how does this make John the perfect guy to defeat Hans Gruber. Well, Hans is “neutral evil.” The neutral comes from Hans having no loyalty to anyone other than himself. He’s not technically on the side of the law, but he’s also not an agent of chaos. To lend some perspective, Deputy Police Chief Dwayne T Robinson is Lawful Evil (he follows the law but in so doing fucks things up and is a total dick about it), and Karl is Chaotic Evil (he’s a wildcard, willing to disobey even Hans if it’ll get him the revenge he’s after). Hans has planned this Nakatomi takeover down to the minute. He knows everything about the building, the vault, Takagi… [CLIP - DIE HARD - HANS FINDS TAKAGI] … and he knows step by step what needs to be done to pull off this heist. [CLIP - DIE HARD - HANS - I PRESENT THE FBI] Hans has accounted for everything. Except for one thing. [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN - I WAS INVITED BY MISTAKE] John McClane is something Hans could have never, ever predicted. I like to think that somewhere, Hans had a guest list of the entire party and had checked everyone out to some degree. But John wasn’t expected to come. Hell, even Holly wasn’t sure that John was coming – his showing up was a surprise. So the one thing that Hans couldn’t see coming, the thing that Hans doesn’t know how to predict, is the thing that completely blindsides him. John’s chaotic behavior, a liability in his marriage and everyday life, is just what’s needed to bring Hans down. [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN - JUST A FLY IN THE OINTMENT] Plus, it drives Hans – and Karl, too – completely crazy. JEREMIAH FRIEDMAN There’s kind of the external stuff. Like at the beginning of the movie, he’s going with a very clear mission, he’s a man on a mission, he’s a guy who wants to get his wife back. And he has no interest in any of this Nakatomi terrorism crap. And then to get his wife back, he has to deal with Hans and all these people. But he also has to overcome his own thing, which is kind of part of the genius of the movie, which is what makes him such like a difficult, crappy husband is also what makes him so problematic for Hans. He’s kind of relentless, and he stubborn, and he’s belligerent and all these things that make him – you know, in that fight scene in Holly’s office in the middle of the Christmas party, and she leaves and he knocks his head on the bathroom wall, and starts ragging on himself – and he knows he’s the problem, in a sense, but he can’t help himself. And he becomes the problem for Hans in a way that we all love. And part of the fun of that movie is he’s not just killing guys, he’s getting inside, he’s pissing them off. You know there’s the moment when they send Karl and some people after him, and then Karl comes back and destroys the bar cart, and Holly’s like, “He’s still alive.” And her secretary is like, how do you know, and she’s like, “Only John can make somebody that angry.” But okay: John’s only skill isn’t making people mad. He’s a veteran police officer, and as he demonstrates, he’s a pretty good one. We see him putting together the clues. [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN - FAKE IDS AND EUROPEAN CLOTHING LABELS] Katie Walsh, film critic for the Tribune News Service and LA Times. KATIE WALSH And then you get John McClane, who’s just like – kind of just a guy. He’s a normal, everyday guy; he doesn’t have special training other than being a cop. He uses common sense and he’s not like a special forces guy he’s not a military dude. He’s just like, I’m just using my everyday knowledge of being a cop and applying that to this situation. So, in many ways he does fit the mold of this singular hero who’s resourceful and thinks on his feet and has, you know a specific set of skills, but it’s not so outside the realm of everyday possibility. SIMONE: He doesn’t have the Liam Neeson “set of special skills.” KATIE: No, no. You’re not like, Oh my god, this guy was in the special forces, you kind of look at him and go, you know, this guy is just a really good cop who happens to be very physically gifted and resourceful. Something I read that I really, really loved is how even though John is armed with a machine gun (ho ho ho), he uses it as so much more. From the blog “Another Angry Woman”: “And yet, in John’s hands, the primary function of the gun is not as a weapon. There are more instances within the film of John using the gun as some sort of tool than as something to kill or hurt people with... John is far more creative in his use of firearms. In his hands, a gun becomes a multitude of useful objects as he displays the kind of creative thinking that neurosexists like to term ‘feminine’ as opposed to the logical, analytical male approach. The gun, wielded by John, is a device for allowing escapes as a rig and a thing to get back into the building, as well as jamming a fan. It is also repeatedly used as a last-resort communication device, shooting to make noise and draw attention, shooting to direct a crowd away from explosive death.” John McClane, even though he’s presented as a tough, macho New York City cop, actually ends up subverting macho stereotypes throughout the film. In our last episode, we talked about the hulking meat-trees that starred in other 80s action movies. John McClane is already different in that, while masculine, he’s not masculinity on steroids. In fact, it’s the macho posturing of the forces around him: the LAPD and the FBI versus the terrorists, that creates a stalemate that forces McClane to act. JEREMIAH FRIEDMAN One of the moments I always like to think about and talk about when I'm talking about the movie, is what he jumps off the roof when the roof blows up. When he gets up there – first of all, he’s forced to jump off the roof ‘cause they're shooting at him and he's going to die. And before he does it, he's terrified and he says a prayer to God to please don't let him die. [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN - ON ROOF] And it makes him so human, and you've never really seen that and that kind of character before. He's not just doing it because he's a badass, he can do this. He’s doing it because he has to do it. And that's kind of the beauty of the movie. He keeps getting forced Into doing things he does not want to do. And he keeps trying to get out of it, in a way. But he's kind of, the movie plays with all the Western stuff, the Roy Rogers, he's the cowboy he's got to get the job done. But he's scared, and he's vulnerable, and he's angry, and he has very human reactions to the crazy things that are happening around him. So the aspirational quality I think is that you would be able to be a smart and brave and as tough eventually as McClane is. And you would die as hard as he does. I would go out in the... I wouldn't be Ellis, but I would go out pretty quickly. John – and the movie Die Hard itself – gets compared to cowboys in Westerns a lot. As Deep Focus Review puts it, “McClane is established as a newly envisioned but classical Western hero — an Easterner ‘goin’ out West’ to tame the frontier. Gruber, McClane’s nemesis throughout the film, even points this out later by referring to McClane as a cowboy.” And John is a cowboy, in a lot of ways. An honorable sheriff type, trying to save the townspeople with nothing but his wits and his grit. According to the site Script Secrets, “He is a cowboy: an individualistic man whose character is earthy and grounded in reality.” [CLIP - DIE HARD - HANS - GARY COOPER] And there it is. Even while he’s a cocky, swaggering cowboy, one of the cowboys John McClane resembles most is Gary Cooper’s Will Kane in High Noon, who was already an in-genre subversion of the cowboy trope. In High Noon, Will Kane learns of a dangerous enemy coming back into town in a mere couple of hours. It’s a man who he once sent to prison, who is now free and will certainly try to seek revenge. At first, Kane attempts to flee with his wife (played by Grace Kelly), but he feels compelled to end this threat to his life, and the safety of the townspeople. So he comes back to face him… but discovers that the townsfolk won’t help him. Kane is left alone to face Frank Miller. And he’s afraid. He’s visibly desperate and afraid. But with no other choice, he shows down with Miller and his gang, and – with a little assist from his wife – he takes them all out. McClane’s fear and vulnerability was the biggest twist in the action movie genre at the time. From Deep Focus Review again: “McClane is not an impervious robotic warrior carved from the template of the action movie gods. Embodied by Willis with pitch-perfect humanism, McClane bleeds, cries out in pain and emotional desperation, and has imperfections that become his trademark. One of the film’s most memorable characteristics is how much physical punishment McClane endures and how such wear amasses on him through the course of the film.” Or how wear doesn’t amass through the film – by the end of the movie, John’s lost his shirt alongside his shoes, and heads into his final confrontation with Hans almost stripped bare. SASHA PERL-RAVER Girl, what isn’t broken inside of John McClane? His marriage is broken, the smoking is broken, the bare feet - the bare feet is such a great example of a character whose vulnerability you just can't avoid. He obviously has a lot of interpersonal stuff going on with his wife, with his family, with wanting to save all these people. Also with just wanting to be good at his job. But you don't like the physical embodiment of it, as you see him get more like, cut up and bloodied, as he's running through the glass to get to exit, all of that stuff is such a great way to make the character somebody who you're like, “Oh, I see that.” I wonder if the movie got made now, if they would have allowed him to get his bloodied up as he does. Because he looks messed up by the end of the film, as well he should. JEREMIAH FRIEDMAN And that’s part of the fun of the movie. You watch him – they really put him through the ringer. He gets the crap beaten out of him in that movie, in a way that doesn’t really happen in the sequels as much. That’s kind of fun – you feel like he’s running this gauntlet, and at the end, when he wins, he earns it. He earns the right to kill Hans and save his marriage, because he’s really been put through hell by this entire experience. And again that goes back to the making him human: he’s bleeding, and he’s tired, and he’s angry and frustrated, and he’s reacting like a heightened human being would react as opposed to just a cartoon movie hero. The obvious physical manifestation of John’s vulnerability is his cut up feet. John was caught by surprise by the terrorist takeover, in the middle of a quiet moment when he is practically defenseless. But it’s his emotional vulnerability that makes us feel for him. And how the filmmakers show John’s emotional vulnerability is nothing short of genius. Deep Focus Review: “Some of McClane’s best moments are by himself as he talks himself through the situation. Whereas stone-faced lone heroes had machine-gunned their way through countless bad guys in action movies before, McClane just an average cop, after all, not even a super-cop... In this unpolished treatment of McClane, and the character’s ability to make observations about his own situation, he becomes instantly ‘real’ when compared to his unstoppable counterparts.” [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN - WHY DIDN’T YOU STOP THEM] KATIE WALSH You know, I love when he’s talking to himself when he’s alone in the building, and I think the script as kind of brilliant in the sense that he gets the radios, and so he can talk to everybody. They're all in different spots in the building, But he can talk to Al, he can talk to Hans, he can talk to all these different people. And that really keeps the story moving, and it also lets us understand him as a person and the way he presents himself. So I think that the way that they function the radios in that whole thing is so brilliant in terms of storytelling. But I also love when he’s just talking to himself, and he’s like “No, John, why didn’t you stop them, John.” And you can tell, he’s kind of got like anxiety or something, he’s, you know. Like, that's what I would say to myself if I was in that situation. “Aw, darn it, why did you do that?” So you relate to him in that way ‘cause you are getting some insight into his psyche. It’s not like you can’t understand him. You totally understand him. One scene in particular is the perfect example of John’s physical and emotional vulnerabilities intersecting. [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN AND AL - BATHROOM] To quote Empire Magazine, “McClane has narrowly escaped a gunfight and holes up in a bathroom to remove shards of jagged glass from his shredded feet. As he does so, McClane has a heartfelt back-and-forth with Reginald VelJohnson’s Al Powell, an LA flatfoot with whom he has forged a brotherly connection over a walkie-talkie. As their dialogue exchange continues, McClane — alone, badly injured and afraid — breaks down and starts sobbing. [In] Willis, audiences were suddenly confronted with a recognisably vulnerable hero who didn’t have all the answers, who didn’t laugh — or stoically squint — in the face of danger or death. Sure, he cracked wise, but his humour felt organic, a defence mechanism to keep him sane. Here was a hero who made Arnie and his muscle-bound ilk seem antiquated.” John’s relationships with other people are what keeps him going. His trying to ensure Holly’s safety is his sole motive throughout the movie. The thought of her helps him to push through his fear and pain. But it’s also his walkie-talkie relationship with fellow cop Al Powell that gives him the extra, in-the-moment support to stave off despair. SASHA PERL-RAVER What is the most important vulnerabilities that he has, is his yearning to be back with his wife. The relationship he has with Bonnie Bedelia, wanting to keep her safe, wanting to make sure that the mother of his child is okay, that’s huge. But also I love the relationship he has with Al, I think that's really, really special, and the way that he's able to latch on to this voice through the radio and they have such a strong bond and connection, is really beautiful. It’s bromance the way we wanna see it. Dudes supporting other dudes in this great way. From his feet to his emotions, from his relationship with his wife to his battle with the terrorists, John McClane’s story is a perfect example of external and internal conflict aligning. As Script Secrets puts it, “But what makes Die Hard into a superior script is the nexus between the Villain's Plan and the Protagonist's character arc... What makes John McClane the perfect protagonist for Die Hard is that the external conflict forces him to confront and solve an internal conflict, leading to a single solution which solves both problems and brings peace to the protagonist. It is only after he faces and conquers this internal conflict that he becomes strong enough to take on Hans (his external conflict) and rescue Holly and the other hostages. Without the external conflict from Hans' Plan, McClane would not have been forced to resolve this problem, and their marriage would have ended. The resolution for the external conflict and internal conflict intersect, creating a strong, organic plot.” Shannon Hubbell, editor-in-chief of LewtonBus.net. SHANNON HUBBELL And also, beyond the fact that he just happens to be there in the building, and he wants to get the bad guys and he wants to save all the hostages, he's there for an emotional reason. He shows up having screwed up his relationship with his wife. And he wants to save her. He has an emotional connection to what he's trying to do. Going back to Under Siege, Segal's character in that is just a cook who used to be a Navy Seal. And he just happens to be in the ship, and there's no real motivation for him being a total action movie bad ass other than him just naturally being an action movie bad ass. So yeah, McClane is extremely relatable. He wants to save his wife, he wants to preserve the relationship with his wife. And also by extension his kids and whatnot. He's a person who happens to be pretty damn good at killing people. SIMONE: Well you know the best arcs are the ones that we are on the outside what's happening on the inside. So he's literally fighting to save his wife. SHANNON: Yeah, absolutely. JEREMIAH FRIEDMAN And I would say the closest he comes to really arcing is the bathroom scene, when he’s pulling the glass out of his feet, and he’s on the radio with Karl – er, Al, not Carl Winslow… He’s on the radio with Al, and he kind of gives up and starts thinking that he’s not going to make it out. And he takes responsibility for the failure of his marriage. I think that’s pretty much an arc. I mean, he’s able to get someplace emotionally he wasn’t able to get earlier in the movie and from that, he kind of earns the epiphany of “what was Hans doing on the roof?” And then he goes up to the roof and there’s the C4 and all that stuff. But even with the impeccably plotted script and carefully built character of John McClane, the role could have easily fallen flat without that third element: the actor. (Or Fifth Element, heyo.) Remember, they wanted to cast pretty much anyone BUT Bruce Willis as the lead for this movie. They looked at everyone from Schwarzennegger and Stallone to Don Johnson and Richard Gere to Burt Reynolds and Robert De Niro. In the end, they took a huge, five million dollar gamble on Bruce Willis. But it worked. ADAM STERNBERGH But I think if you were to watch Die Hard and Raiders of the Lost Ark side by side, there’s something about the Indiana Jones character that seems a little bit more well-rounded than the John McClane character. But at the same time, you know, you might even say that about watching Casablanca or something like that. I mean, there’s many actors and many great characters in Hollywood history where the lead performance is essentially the actor’s extraordinary charisma carrying it, and it’s not something that any other actor could have brought to the role. And so sometimes I think you know, lightning just strikes and you end up with the right person in the right role and so in many ways I just feel like John McClane was, like, Bruce Willis; he was the embodiment of whatever it was that people loved about Bruce Willis, this kind of irascible, indefatigable charm that he had. SASHA PERL-RAVER I think that Bruce Willis certainly is a better actor. And is therefore better able to get the pathos across, and able to really deliver the lines without feeling like you learned them phonetically. Which is something you get a lot of in Schwarzenegger's early performances and even later performances.  SCOTT WAMPLER Well I also think Bruce Willis is an asshole but not a lovable one. I think the Bruce Willis at that point in his career, though, is not the Bruce Willis that we know today. You know, he was still humble, he started out as a bartender. I think Bruce Willis, when he made Die Hard, even though he had been on Moonlighting and was still kind of hot shit at that time, was – he hadn’t developed the full Bruce Willis ego that has sort of come to define him in his later years. People knew who he was because of Moonlighting, and a series of very entertaining Bartles & Jaymes commercials that I would encourage all of your listeners to go find on YouTube. That will make your fucking skin crawl with embarrassment. [CLIP - BRUCE WILLIS SEAGRAM'S COMMERCIAL] But, you know, he was not a Stallone or a Schwarzenegger. He wasn’t even a Van Damme. He was a guy. He was just a dude. And still doing Bogart a little bit. He’s still got that earthiness to him. SHANNON HUBBELL But also before die-hard established him as an action hero, much like Kurt Russell in Escape From New York, That was the first action role for Kurt Russell. He was in Disney movies before that. He was in The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes. And then John Carpenter put an eye patch on him and some tattoos and told him to growl. And now he's an action star. And it was kind of the same thing with Bruce Willis. He was more of a comedic actor as I recall, before that. Again tying in with the idea of McClane being more relatable, everyman-ish action hero, having someone who's completely not associated with the action genre before that, really makes that character work. He's just a dude. He's just a balding dude. KATIE WALSH But yeah, he’s charming, he’s funny, he’s a better actor. He’s got the gift of gab. It’s a different star persona and it’s a different acting ability, completely. John McTiernan has said something similar. “Bruce is most endearing when he’s being a smart-ass. That’s the essence of his stardom is somebody’s pointing a gun right between his eyes and he goes, ‘Oops.’ That irreverence is what we seem to love about him.” Willis even improvised the “Hi, honey” at the end of the movie. [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN - HI HONEY] As Empire Magazine put it, “It’s testament to Willis that he not only thwarts Gruber’s heist, but also Rickman’s own audacious attempt to walk away with a multi-million dollar movie. Willis’ performance in Die Hard is hungry and committed, redolent of a man visiting the Last Chance Saloon, and it worked handsomely, turning him into a bona fide megastar. What’s more, his McClane — a likeable mix of working-stiff neuroses, desperate heroics and wise guy sardonics — changed the face of action heroes forever.” In the end, Bruce Willis’s John McClane gave us someone to root for. All of the character’s influences, from reacting to other action heroes to Gary Cooper to Bruce Willis himself, create someone who is… a human. And no matter what extraordinary things we see onscreen, telling human stories is where film is most powerful. It’s why Die Hard rises above its peers – all thanks to John McClane. In our next episode, we’ll take a look at John’s wife Holly. Whether she goes by Gennaro or McClane, Holly’s role as a working woman, a wife, and a mother brings forward the changing role of women in 1980s film. Thank you to our guests Jeremiah Friedman, Sasha Perl-Raver, Scott Wampler, Reed Fish, Adam Sternbergh, Katie Walsh, and Shannon Hubbell. Be sure to check the show notes on the website to learn more about them. Thanks again for joining me, and yippee-kai-yay, motherfuckers!

Listen now: Shannon DeJong is the CEO of House of Who, an art house and agency based in Oakland, California, whose clients include Google, among others. Outside of her naming expertise, Shannon is an artist, speaker, and podcast host: she hosts ArtistCEO, where she uses her story to talk about how business and art can work together. Shannon's also worked at Salt, an independent branding agency in San Francisco. She's worked at Logitech, and also HP, where she was global naming manager.  Toward the end of my conversation with Shannon, she describes what she was like as a kid: "a very mercurial, precocious little thing...[that] would bounce around and just talk and talk and talk" [27:16] You can still hear that kid come through in the enthusiasm and energy she brings to this episode. We kicked things off talking about her approach to name generation, in which Shannon starts out as a hummingbird, flitting from idea to idea. Later on, she turns into a drill, when she's more thorough and exhaustive. In the hummingbird phase, Shannon's quick to get out of her chair and go outside, sometimes driving for miles to find the right setting for creative inspiration. Shannon lists some tools* she uses, such as: A dictionary (ideally the Oxford English Dictionary) OEDonline Dictionary.com ("not the best dictionary...[but] often it gives me that base of synonyms that I start from") Synonym.com Online Etymology Dictionary Google Google Images OneLook We also talked about how to get past writer's block, for which Shannon shared the "Stupid Rule" and the "10-minute Rule" [15:24]. Lastly, Shannon gave her perspective on "brand truth" [21:20], and says the reason she loves being a namer is that "for just these few hours, I get to create an entire world" [26:26]. Below, you'll find the full transcript of the episode (may contain typos and/or transcription errors). Click above to listen to the episode, and subscribe on iTunes to hear every episode of How Brands Are Built. * To see a complete list of online resources listed by namers in episodes of How Brands Are Built, see our Useful List: Online/software resources used by professional namers. Rob: Shannon, thanks for taking the time to chat. Shannon: My pleasure. Good to be here. Rob: Let's zero in on name generation. So, you get a naming brief, you sit down to start generating names. Walk me through what you do next. Shannon: Well, I am a bit of a hummingbird when it comes to creative. The very first thing I do is just read and absorb and listen, letting it kind of sink in, because sometimes it's the stuff that I wouldn't hear on first blush or the nuance of what the client is saying or not saying that ends up proving to be a really fruitful area. You know if someone's like, "Here's the brief; we want it to be about connectivity and speed," you're like, "All right, network, hive, bee, prism, nexus, fast, cheetah pounce, run, paw." Y'know, it's like, that's great. And, once that has run out, the place that's gonna be sweet, where it's going to be truly helpful to the client and where the client could not maybe have gone on their own, is to think about the subtlety of what they're asking for and the subtlety of what the right answer could be. Especially now with the world—everything, brands, naming, trademarks—being so cluttered, it's really about these little teeny slivers of space, whether it's creative space, strategic space, where there's going to be something truthful and effective and clear. So, I like to just do a lot of receptive work first, especially because naming is such a generative, productive act. Rob: So, talk to me a little bit more about interrogating the brief. Is there anything you can point to that that works? Shannon: Yeah, I mean, I guess broadly I just want to ask every question until I have no questions left and I'm sitting there on the call or looking at the brief going, "Ok, Ok, I guess there's nothing left to do but start naming." Like, if I have any question at all in my head, even if it's a playful one or a curious one, like, "Hey this maybe doesn't have anything to do with naming, but how did this company start?" And then I think, practically, I will interrogate a brief or dissect it by just making sure the strategy is watertight. You know, the number one factor for success in any naming project is the strategy. It's always about making sure that you're clear what the ask is and what this name is going to do for you. So, I will always look a brief through and through and just know that there are those different pieces that I know need to be covered. I have to be very clear on what the brand—the master brand or the product brand—is about, the positioning must be ultra-clear. One thing that I find really helpful is coming back to the simplicity of this particular exercise, which is just a small part of branding writ large. It's a very important part. It's an essential part. But just reminding everyone, hey this is a name. There's a lot of other things that the brand is going to be. What do you need the name to do? Rob: Well let's talk about a hypothetical. I don't know how often this really happens, but let's pretend that you've been given a perfect brief. Where do you start, any process or steps that you follow consistently? Shannon: Oh yeah. Now the fun begins. I think my number one thing that I always do—so I mentioned I'm a bit of a hummingbird and then other times I act like a drill... Rob: And explain what you mean by those two metaphors just so that I'm clear. Shannon: Yeah, sure. As a hummingbird I like to give myself permission to...so creatively, I think I need to be able to flit from idea to idea. So, when I first sit down, I really like to give myself a ton of freedom, even though later on I will be more thorough and more exacting and I will make sure that I've covered my bases, and what am I missing, and where can I mine? And that's when the drilling comes in. The initial phase for me is always one of freedom and following the thread wherever it goes. It's organic, it's potentially disorganized. It's kind of like a little kid with a bunch of sugar who just wants to like, run around like, "Oh ooh, what's this over here? Oh, look at that! Oh, look it's a kitten. Oh, Mommy, can I have another..." You know, it's like I let myself do that because I know that that's where a lot of the creative wisdom is. And at the very least, even if that initial flush of naming doesn't produce names that are going to be viable, because like I said, the way the brain works you're going to have to be recycling and going over lots of synonyms and things that maybe aren't the quote unquote "diamond in the rough," that's where you get the volume. That's where you get the quantity, at least for me. I should say, I get the quantity and the volume and the breadth and inspiration and the curiosity, so I can cover a lot of ground if I just let my mind flit from beautiful little idea to beautiful little idea. Rob: And just to be clear, how are you, in practical terms, how are you working at this point? Are you often on a whiteboard or working with Post-It Notes or are you in software of some sort? Shannon: Great question. I would say that, well, first of all, I would say even my method is a little hummingbird-like in I also follow wherever the impulse is in terms of how to work. So, in the first several hours I really do just follow however I want to work. I start totally on impulse. It's like, have I been sitting at my computer all day and I'm just now getting to it? Well, opening up an Excel spreadsheet, while it can be very helpful later on with organizing, right now is going to just kill my creative mojo. So, why don't I grab a pen and paper and my running shoes and walk outside and go for a walk? I mean, I have even driven before an hour away to a beautiful setting. Especially when it's a particular kind of project and I need you know more tranquil, kind of open, expansive ideas and given myself physical space and physical beauty in order to start unleashing. Other times, I work a lot in just good old Word or good old Google Docs or a text doc. Increasingly now, I have, when I have a limited amount of time, I actually will start in Excel because anytime you take your pen and paper and you go out into nature, it takes longer. But I would say that I love starting with pen and paper. That's always a great way to start because you know that no matter what you're going to be ending up back at a machine. Rob: And I'm just curious, when you when you do wander off into nature with a pad, you don't you don't have Wi-Fi access when you're doing this? Shannon: Correct. Yeah, absolutely. That's part of the genius, I think, is that, to totally disconnect. I'd like to give myself a chance to see what I can do without any influence. I guess I should say without any digital influence. Because I think once I start getting into using—and there are a lot of great tools out there and they're absolutely essential, you know dictionaries and thesauruses and I think there's something called OneLook, and Wordnik, and Wikipedia, not even for words but just for ideas and how are certain concepts related to other concepts. These are all great. And for me that's more like middle process or it or toward end of the generation process when I'm starting to slow down a little bit from my raw creative fire. I think the best stuff has come from when I'm actually just sitting back a bit. And sometimes I physically do this. I sit back from the computer, I sit back from my desk, maybe I don't even have a pen and paper and I just... It's kind of that like shower moment, that lightbulb moment of, "Hold on, hold on, let me take a break from trying to generate 20 words a second and just go back to that initial listening and thinking. It's a very important step because sometimes I have had that moment and it's like, "Oh, that's the name." Like you just had this moment you're like, "That's it. Yes!" And you know that it's probably not it. Rob: Or it's not available. Shannon: Or it's not available. Yeah, usually that's the next thought. I think I need to have a feeling of, oh, I've had several moments like that, where I just go, "Yes, oh yes!". Rob: You've brought up timing. How do naming projects go for you from a timing standpoint and what's the ideal? Is it to have a huge block of time in front of you or do you like to work in little sprints? Shannon: Well, the ideal timeline is one that is two weeks for creative work where I have the opportunity to try out a lot of different modes. No matter what, at some point, I need to have a long block of time and that long block of time is always relative to the timeline and size of the project. So, if it's a quick little name list that I'm helping another agency with a long block of time might be two-to-four hours. I mean, that might feel like a good amount of time to sink in. I do feel like the minimum amount of time total is four hours. Like, I feel like it's after the four hours is when you can really get to some good stuff. And then you do hit a wall and you're like, "Ok, I need to refresh." Rob: Let's talk about tools. You mentioned a few but I'd love to just get a list from you, if you have it off the top of your head, of online or offline tools that you like to have handy for every project or maybe there are some that you find you only use once in a blue moon. Shannon: Sure, yeah. I have to admit, while I'm always on the search for new tools, I kind of I kind of feel a little boring or old school because as of yet I haven't found a tool that's better than my brain. But, with that said, I definitely use various dictionaries. So, I might have a dictionary here, whether that's a Webster's, ideally you have a full, original OED and you can open up and look through etymologies, but I do not have one of those. I do use, I think it's called OEDonline or Etymology.com [Online Etymology Dictionary, I believe. OneLook. Just, really Dictionary.com. It's not the best dictionary and often weeding through all of the ads and crossword puzzles and whatever I find very distracting, but it works as a tool because often it gives me that base of synonyms that I start from. Like ok, here is "fast," and dictionary.com or synonym.com, they're going to give me a definition and like top-10 synonyms. And then those synonyms, I, using my brain, or my other favorite naming tool, which is just Google, then get inspired to take that synonym and try and find what I call related or extended conceptual synonyms to go from. I also just use Google and the way I use it is I will start, embarrassingly, by just taking words in the brief or in the pathways and just typing them in. Like hey, let's just start. What does the Google brain and what does the world and what does the internet...how do they relate to this word or this pathway that I need to explore? Then I go into, I use a lot just Images, Google Images, and I'll type in various words, whether it's from the brief or even words that I have found that capture some kind of essence, even if it's not the right word. I'll write that into Google Images and then I'll get a visual palette or visual collage of more things that stimulate more thought. Rob: That's a great idea. I love the Google Images idea just to break yourself out of...I mean frankly, you're looking at words a lot when you're doing gaming so it's even just a nice break for the eyes. Is there anything particular that you've found works well for writer's block, so to speak? Shannon: I want to think carefully before I say this because I might jinx myself. I was going to say I don't experience writer's block very often. Maybe more than writer's block, I just get constricted and rigid and I get too narrow in my thinking and it just gets dry. So, I think that's probably my version of it. It's not a full block. But it just sort of is there's no juice anymore. And what I always do then is the Stupid Rule and the 10-minute Rule. The Stupid Rule—I just made these up right now, can you tell I'm a namer? The Stupid Rule is that I have to write down things that are stupid. Like alright, alright, now I want the next ten names, fifty names, to be totally stupid. Like you would never name this that. You would never even show it to the client. You'd be embarrassed to do it, you know? Rob: And the Stupid Rule—I love the name—when you do that...so, I guess it's sometimes it tells you, "Ok, I'm done, because I did this and I feel like I've gotten everything out of my system," essentially? And then other times does it, it spurs another wave? Shannon: Well, I don't think that just feeling like I'm out of ideas is the right feeling for telling me that it's time to stop. Usually that tells me that it's coming up on that first wave or a dry spot and I have to push through it. The 10-minute Rule—to finish up that thought—is just do anything for 10 minutes. If you want to stop after that, ok, then maybe it's not the right time to do it, but most likely you'll get into flow and you'll be on the treadmill and it will just, fwip! And off you go. I think it's absolutely that way with creativity. I mean anything, right, it's "I don't want to do it, I don't want to do it, I don't do it. Ok, 10 minutes, 10 minutes, 10 minutes—oh, this is fun." Rob: So, in that example what are you doing? What are you doing for 10 minutes? I just want to understand, are you doing something naming related for 10 minutes? Shannon: That's it. And maybe you only get 10 minutes of naming right now and then do something else and come back to it. If I'm really feeling blocked or I don't like it I'll just say, "Ok, 10 more minutes. Just do 10 more minutes." You know, I've even done that to myself three times in a row, like "Uggh, I don't want to." "Ok. Hey, hey, how about another 10 minutes? Rob: Making deals with yourself. Shannon: Exactly. Rob: Are there any specific name ideas or naming tropes you know like the "-ly" on the end of all these startup names—is there anything in particular that you're sick of seeing or that you've identified as a trend that you try to steer clear of? Shannon: Well, it's a trend that isn't my favorite but I'm not yet able to steer clear of it because it's so pervasive, but I must say the verbable name is lovely in theory and there's nothing overtly obnoxious about it. But here's what I don't like: I don't like it because people ask for it just because they think that that's going to be a successful name, and I hate to be a broken record but I want to go back to this idea of, "Yeah, but does it make sense strategically?" And I have gotten a lot of that like, "We want it to be one syllable, real word, ideally verbable," which is nice but there's going to be tradeoffs. Rob: To what extent do you think verbability is a real thing, though? Because "Google" is a noun, right? I mean, if anything. Shannon: You know what, Rob, thank you! So is Apple. So is...Uber is an adjective. This is what's so funny, is that I look around I'm like, "How many names are actually..." and people are like, "You know, like Twitter." I'm like, Twitter is not...you don't "Twitter" something. You Tweet it. And I don't know, honestly, if that came from Twitter, the company, the brand itself. But I don't think so. I don't even think that they created their own language. That was done by people. That's the thing, people will do that. This is the nature of language. This is my background: linguistics. I started as a linguist and I love language and the beauty of language. This is why I'm not a prescriptive but a descriptive linguist, which just means languages is alive. Language is organic. And it will extend and bend and twist itself as memes, as trends, as tropes from person to person in this way that is beyond any one individual or brand. Rob: I absolutely agree with you. I think what I hear you saying is that it's not necessarily our decision as the people behind the brand as to whether or not people end up using it as a verb. That's their decision, and one that they'll likely make subconsciously. But then, on top of that, I also think that brands need to be really careful about trying to impose that type of prescriptive language on to consumers or onto their customers because it—aside from it potentially not working—it could also just really backfire in terms of making them look silly. You talk about "brand truth" a lot. I think I saw it on the House of Who website and I believe you give talks about it as well. Can you just explain what brand truth is and how it relates to naming? Shannon: Brand truth is the very simple idea that one, you don't have to be fake in order to succeed. And two, your truth is going to be your most valuable asset. I think that the branding industry and the marketing industry is often known for putting layers on and making things shiny and beautiful and glossy, and there is a time and a place for that. I'm most interested in peeling the layers back and getting to the heart of what is essential. And if you are a business and a brand, there's something truthful about your product, your offering, your culture, and the essence of who you are, and that is going to be your sweet spot. I think that that actually ends up being—especially now with the way the world is going—people want realness. People want to be able to connect with a brand and its truth, in all of its glory, wants it to be whole. And I think in terms of naming it drills down the value of essential information. You get one word, one name, to communicate who you are and hopefully you have a bunch of other brand assets that go along with it. But sometimes you don't, and it's one word that may appear in print, it may be verbal, it may be someone just passing on the street. And I think, in that one name, there should be something really essential about who you are and it should be real. Also, just in terms of the process of naming, we're talking very tactical, you don't have to go to all these fancy bells and whistles and naming trends and what's going to be cool in five years and what's most searchable. All of those things are important to consider because they're realities. But I think in the process of naming, what's most important is to think of something really clear and clean and concise. And I would call that "truthful." We recently worked on Google Home Mini, and that's not a sexy name, necessarily. It's not like, "Oh god, that's so fun, and you just say it and it's like an inside joke, and it's cool, and it's hip." But it's pretty simple and it just makes sense. And it's at the heart of what the thing is. It's a small, cute version of Google Home, and there you have it. So, I kind of feel like people often try too hard when they don't have to. There doesn't have to be anxiety, you don't have to worry like, "Oh god, we have to be super creative, or edgy, or unique, or differentiated." Yeah, those things, sure. That's where your strategy comes in. But when it gets down to naming, I say start with the truth. Rob: Yeah, I often find myself reminding clients that no one will ever think as hard about this name as we're about to do. And try to relieve a little of that pressure and temptation to overthink it. Shannon: I often say to people my secret as a namer is that naming is the most important thing you will ever do for your business, and...it doesn't matter. At some point, get as close as you can and do the best you can, but as long as you—again—as long as you're on strategy and you're communicating what you need to communicate, you're fine. Rob: Well I love that Google Home Mini name. I think it's a good example of a name that's great but you don't realize it is. And the reason for that is, or the way to realize how great it is, is to think of what they could have called it. To think of all the things they might have done and some of the atrocities that other companies have waged upon us with more fanciful attempts to convey what is ultimately a pretty simple message. Shannon: I think when I was younger and new at naming, for a long while I was like, "Oh, I want to get that that perfect name. I want to have on my resume...like I want to have named Twitter!" I want to get something that people hear and they're like, "Oh my god, that's such an amazing name!" and I'd be like, "Yeah, thanks." And at this point I really let that go and I realize that it's far more satisfying to just get a name that's right and just makes sense. And if I never get associated with it, great. And if it does its job, great. Rob: Last question: What is your favorite thing about naming or generating names? Shannon: Oh gosh, I think that it's a little moment to play God. It's like, for just these few hours I get to create an entire world. I mean maybe it's like—I don't have children, and so maybe it's getting to name all of these potential little babies that will grow up and go out into the world, and there's sort of like a maternal pride about giving my creative oomph to something that will live on past me. I think that's part of it. And I think the other part is it satisfies this, like I said, the hummingbird in me. When I was a kid I was a very mercurial, precocious little thing. I was super teeny with shock-white hair and I would bounce around and just talk and talk and talk, and I think at some point, people were just like, "Ok, thank you for the 15 cartwheels and the story about rainbows. But it's time to be quiet now." And I think that energy, that childlike enthusiasm for language and ideas, gets to play when I'm naming and then it gets to saddle up next to, and ride along with, the other part of my brain which then wants to make it all make sense and put it all into a structure and find a place for it in the world. Rob: Shannon, thanks so much for making the time to chat. Shannon: Thank you. This was a lot of fun.  

Shannon Burnett-Gronich has come a long way since her days as a single mother of two, struggling to make ends meet. Through hard work and a focus on helping others find success, Shannon has developed into a successful, multi-faceted executive. Her expertise has enabled her to help hundreds of people with business development and personal growth by training and coaching them in marketing, event production, networking, and much more. Shannon has spent ten years building an international conscious business community, focused on helping small businesses grow through education, marketing, and cooperation. Known as the owner of an exclusive "Million Dollar Rolodex," Shannon has successfully attained over $3 Million in F-R-E-E press, and has taught hundreds of people how to do the same. Shannon has appeared on television, radio, and in the press, and has co-authored the Amazon #1 best seller "Law of Business Attraction - The Secret of Cooperative Success" with T Harv Eker of the Millionaire Mind.   Shannon Burnett-Gronich has produced over 300 events and conferences since 2001 with 100+ exhibitors and 100+ volunteers. She discovered that most sponsors, speakers, and exhibitors do not have the education or plan to be successful. In order for them to continue to come back year after year, Shannon developed a simple system to train businesses and their teams in the fine art of conference excellence - helping them get the results they want and make more money. She also has been an exhibitor of multiple booths that required planning, marketing, team training, sales, database building, and follow-up. She has the ability to systemize and implement a plan for follow-up so that all leads turn into cash. This is through investors, joint venture partners, product sales, and sponsors. Shannon's event production clients include Dr Linda Hole, Jim Self, Stewart Levine of Resolution Works, Dr. Gary Null - America's #1 Health Guru, and T Harv Eker. - Secret to the Millionaire Mind.   Notes from the session: Secrets for a Great Press Release 1. Tagline that sizzles (12 to 14 point) Think Like Magazine Editors (Checkout at grocery store) 2. Introduction - Invite people to talk about challenge or problem (Quote someone famous as substitute) Lean toward statistics 3. Body - Quote yourself as an expert (preferably from other publicity from known sources) 4. Solution - What the remedy is 5. Call to action to readers to use information, go back for more 6. Contact information   Media Kit Contents - Expert Power Bio, Press Release, Company Pieces, Action Photos, Sample Media Done, Articles or Clippings About You, Fancy Annual Report   www.shannongronich.com/powerbio   The Interview Transcript   Nonprofit Chat with Shannon Gronich Hugh Ballou: Greetings, it's Hugh Ballou. We are in this session of the Nonprofit Chat. We have had a series of really good interviews. Tonight is no exception. We have a special guest tonight, Shannon Gronich. Shannon is a dear friend, and we collaborate a lot together. Shannon has presented at my leadership empowerment symposiums multiple times, and each time, she adds more and more value to what I do. Shannon, welcome to the Nonprofit Chat. Shannon Gronich: Thank you so much for having me. I love the work that you do and really appreciate all of the individuals that you have touched in my life with your skill of how to build a high-performance team and how to collaborate and all that you do. Thank you, Hugh. Hugh: Great. Thank you. We are better when we work with good people, and I enjoy the collaboration that we share. I know things about you. You do a lot of things. You produce events and get sponsorships. Tonight, our channel is about creating the documents and the story to get picked up for free publicity. Tell us a little bit about your background in doing this and how you got to that level of expertise. Shannon: Thank you. That is a great question. I have always been doing events and bringing people together, ever since I was in high school, when I would throw parties and bring people together. When I started doing events, I looked at the marketing budget and the expense of that and how to grow that because a lot of times, you can spend money on marketing and not get the results you want. We were doing a local conference here in Florida and getting about 500 attendees, which is an incredible amount of individuals. So we studied how do we get picked up by TV and radio and print? We cracked the code for developing a press release that anybody can do. You don't have to be a great writer. You don't have to be a nonprofit even, even though this is for nonprofits. You do have an edge because of your nonprofit status. We were able to use this system for our event, and in one press release, we went from 500 to 2,000 attendees. The article got picked up in multiple places. Since then, I have helped attain millions of dollars of free publicity, not only for multiple events, but for multiple projects and individuals and lots of variations in between. Hugh: You have a book on this topic. What's the book called? Shannon: Media Magic: Instantly Get Radio, TV, Print, and Internet Press to Give You Limitless Publicity. Hugh: Where can people find it? I guess you can find it on Amazon? Shannon: Yes, you can find it on Amazon. If you get it there, Hugh, I always say to email me, which is in the back of the book, a receipt because I will give you a free copy of a training with Jay Abraham's ghostwriter that is just powerful. If you get it from Amazon, send me the receipt. Or you can go to my website shannongronich.com and instantly get that recording, too. Hugh: Great. That is a super offer. I know your content is stunning and absolutely works. This publicity thing, in my first book, I had a chapter on publicity. When I worked in St. Pete, I developed personal relationships with all the media, so when I sent in my announcements, they knew who it was from. And I knew how to make it complete so they would be able to print it. They said that was very rare because people would give them in all kinds of forms, and there would be things missing, like what time the event was and where to go in the properties, where it was. I developed a template that had a checklist of important things. I also found that a lot of people, and this was in church music, I had open events that were accessible by everybody, so it was important for me to get the word out. I do find that for many years, publicity was an afterthought. If you wait until the week before, it is too late. I find that that is a common thread with people running a charity or some sort of church program. We are so busy producing the event that we forget about the publicity. Let me run a paradigm by you. I encourage people to appoint someone in the organization to be in charge of communications, which would include event publicity, internal and external communications. There would be one person to develop the system, and that person needs to have certain qualifications. Do you find that that works in groups you have worked with? There is some person dedicated to sharing information? Shannon: Absolutely. Whomever is dealing with the event, whether it be the marketing coordinator, the person in charge of marketing, or the event coordinator, they do need to look at that plan. You hit on a sore spot for a lot of people. I have had people call me ten days before their event. Now, we have worked miracles and have done in the daily. Ideally, if you are looking at a project, if you can be 120 days out, 90 days out, then you can start building those relationships with publications, trade magazines, bi-monthlies, monthlies, quarterlies. We have a beautiful magazine here in our area that comes out four times a year, so you have to plan way ahead to get into their calendar of events or articles or anything like that. Hugh: Would you talk a little bit about that timeline? I encourage people to go backwards from the event. When you are thinking about all of these different types of publications, it's a challenge because magazines have a different kind of lead time. It's the publication day, but there are different kinds of lead time. There is a flow with this. Talk about working backwards from the event. Shannon: Absolutely. Then I want to be certain to share the six essentials that go with it. Working backwards, I always invite people- One of our greatest assets is our media list. We hear our greatest asset is our contact list, which is absolutely true. Another huge asset is our media list. With the media list, I use a simple Excel sheet. I also have them in my CRM system. But I use a simple Excel sheet that has name, publication deadlines, key contacts, but also I target writers or contributors because they can sometimes get us in to publications easier or expedite that process. At least, when you start creating that list, find out where you want to be. Locally seems to be the easiest. You do want to have on your vision board to target big publications and magazines. However, starting local and getting that media list together is key. Find out who does quarterly, monthly, weekly, daily. How about radio shows? You do this chat once a week, and you probably book it out a few months in advance. I even know radio hosts who are booked out six months in advance. The more lead time you can give with an event- I like to have at least 120 days so you can start building those relationships. As you have a relationship with media, it's a lot easier. You can do exactly like you said, Hugh: “Hey, I have something that is coming in.” Let them know your timeline, and they can work within it. But especially as you are building that new relationship, you do need a little bit longer. Hugh: Absolutely. I used to worry about bothering people with my stuff, but it is their job; they are looking for stuff! We are actually helping them do their job. Isn't that right? Shannon: Yes, there is thousands of dollars of free publicity with everybody's who is watching this name on it right now. They are looking for stories. Now they are not looking for free advertising. This is that fine line. They are looking for good stories. I focus on these three primary things. We have all heard of negative news and things like that. You can buy in and tap into some of that. But the three things that I focus on are education; community outreach, which is where a lot of events tie in, community giveback; and human interest. They love human interest, overcoming adversity, challenges that somebody may have. You may ask what this has to do with a nonprofit. How does this benefit me? When people see Hugh Ballou has overcome—Hugh, I am sitting here trying to say something you have overcome, but I have never heard you overcome any challenges. But when they read that, they are going to go, “I need to know about Hugh. Let me connect with him. Who is this individual?” Hugh: I am getting over being bashful. You have hit on a subject, which is so key. Russell David Dennis has joined us. Welcome, Russell. I like his three names; he doesn't usually use them, but I think there is a rhythm to it. I ran a pretty good music program in a major church in St. Pete, Florida, across Florida from where you are in Melbourne. I did really good events. There was a person- I had relationships with writers in music to critics. I had writers that did business. St. Pete Times was my customer, so St. Pete Times had different people who did different writing for different topics. I built a relationship with all of them. There was one time I had Sir David Wilcox, the Queen's Musician, coming from England. We were doing this big-deal concert. I sent in my announcement to the calendar listing, just modestly sending it. The person sent it back to me and said, “We can't publicize this church event. It's not of general interest.” So I went to the music critic, and they jumped on it and did an interview. I had a front-page picture of the rehearsal with Sir David and my choir, which was much better than a calendar listing. This guy being a music critic knew this was a nationally renowned conductor that we were bringing to St. Pete, Florida, and they jumped on it. It was to their advantage to run the story, which they did. It didn't fit one person's model, but it fit another person's model. I could have gone back to her and gone “Nyah, nah, nah,” but I didn't because it didn't fit her model. It fit the other model. Just because somebody said no, like you said, you have different people who have different slants, we can go to another place and it might be of interest to them. Do you have a story around- It's not doing the run-around, but finding the fit, the proper thing to say. Shannon: A lot of people say, “What do you say? You have the press kit together. What do you do?” That is where in the media list, I do identify multiple people. You know we have a bull's eye and aim darts at it? I imagine having a handful or fistful of bull's eyes and I send them out to multiple people. I say, “I'm not sure where this goes. Maybe you can direct me.” Most of the time, where it gets to where it's going, they have heard about it from different locations, so it tends to have more impact or attention. Hugh: The other thing I think is important to know is that you are sending it to the real person. You have checked to make sure it is the right person, and you spell their name correctly. Shannon: I am old-school on picking up the phone as much as possible and getting their permission and letting them know to expect it. Also to follow up and expect multiple No's, No I didn't get it, No I didn't read it, No it's the wrong department, No we don't want to print it. My biggest success was when I was rejected 13 times, and they ended up calling me when they were going to print. They said they had remnant space. Once they did the layout, they realized they had one space, and they did a full-profile picture and an entire article. Hugh: Love it. That is amazing. You slid by something here that I want to come back to. The press kit. What is that? Shannon: That's a great question. That is the six things we have talked about. There are six things to be ready for the media. The first thing is your press release. Having what it is that you are doing. I have a simple system that is one page, double-spaced, title at the top. It's very much story-focused as opposed to advertising. You even quote yourself as an expert. When you quote yourself as an expert, I wouldn't say, “Shannon, author of Media Magic.” I would say, “Shannon, author and marketing strategist,” or something very general because when they look at it and if it looks like you want free press, there is a higher chance of it ending up in the trash. We keep it very simple. The press release is one thing that you want to have ready to go. When you call them or connect with them, they will say to send it over. The other thing is I like people to have ready their expert power bio. An expert power bio- I say power because this is a story about you. If you are a nonprofit, this can be a story about your board or individuals who are involved. Having this ready tends to get people to pay attention and notice who you are, and you are not having to sell yourself. The third thing is company pieces. Do you have brochures or business cards? Have those items ready to send out on a moment's notice. Is there an event flyer you are working with? Sample PR that you have been a part of. Have you been on radio or TV or articles? Sample PR that you have contributed is great. The next one is things that have been written about you, the third-party writing. Those are other items. The last two is your order form. I don't always send this in with the press release. But having that ready because a lot of times, individuals want to know what you offer. Tell me more about who you are and what you offer. Have that ready so they can get an overview is key. The last thing is action photos. Action photos are you in action. I know that we want to update our headshots and have those, but do not send those in with a press release. You are really wasting your time unless they ask specifically for a headshot. You always want to do what they say to do as opposed to what I say to do. I am teaching you a format that has worked, but you want to follow what they say. Hugh, can I share a little story about action photos? Hugh: I love it. You know I had a photo career previously, and I see a lot of really stupid pictures. People standing around smiling is not credible. It's not very interesting. Shannon: Action photos. What happened with me is when I was first learning this formula, they asked if I had any photos. I said yes and sent in a headshot. All I got was a real small article and that was it. I started looking at what they were really looking for. The next time, when they asked if I had an action photo, I said yes and put together a picture of me and a woman standing in front of a booth or display. I am looking at a brochure pointing at it with her. This was our action photo. They gave us a quarter page for the photo and then a quarter page for the article, and it was huge. They really love things that make it stand out. So I send in a few things when we submit the press release so they can pick and choose and connect with an image. Hugh: That's a really good list. I want to make sure we get a numbered list and put it on the website. If I heard you right, nonprofits stand a good chance of getting free publicity because of the kinds of work that we do. Did I hear that correctly? Shannon: Absolutely. Everybody, yeah. But nonprofits have an advantage because many times, they hit all three of those things: the human interest, the community, and the education. If you can tie in all three, that can be more powerful, but it only takes one. Hugh: And you talked about the bio. I guess there is a whole methodology around that, and you speak about that in your book. But why are the leader and team bios important for getting free publicity? Does that lead to more attendance, more donations? What is the net result? Why do we have those bios included? Shannon: With the bio, and Hugh, I think I did get your permission, I am going to give them my 12-step system for free. If they go to shannongronich.com/powerbio, they can get the 12-step system that I take people through. There is actually a 13th step, which is listing your contacts or clients, even if it is a past company you have worked with. I found by adding that number 13, there has been gems, as I have talked to people, where Delta might have been a client for them. They sometimes forget key names they are able to share. So please get that. Why it's important is that one of the most challenging things for individuals to do is to talk about themselves or what people might consider bragging. It is the most powerful thing to stand out in the crowd and get people to pay attention and notice you. I found that in the bio process, it really speeds up that- if you are working with a door, and they want to know who you are and what you are doing and why they should entrust you with their money, they could see this is who you have worked with, this is what you have accomplished, this is what you stand for, it makes it easier for them to write a check. You are actually not having to talk as much. With the media, they want to know who this is. Why do I need to pay attention to this individual? Hugh: Wow. Shannon: With your board, especially with donations and grants, I know that is a separate topic, but it's important. They want to know, even with media, who is on the board and who is running this organization and to be able to share and showcase it, you have some supportive, whether it be big names or their skillset, that this is not just a whim. Or if it is just getting started, you have really positioned it with some leaders. Hugh: You want to position yourself as a professional. You are giving us professional tools. I know sometimes people have asked questions about bragging about what they have done. It is just a factual representation of what you stand for. That way, the person on the other end can choose what they want to extract if they want to print some of that. So those are really good points. I want to go back to the website of shannongronich.com/powerbio. Russell, what do you think of all this? You spent a lot of time working in the nonprofit sector, and there are so many people who keep things they do a secret. Russell Dennis: A lot of them don't want to talk about themselves because they feel like it's bragging, or they are a little bit apologetic about it. It's important to talk about what you are doing. People want to know what it is that you're doing. They are interested. A lot of times, some nonprofits you get social workers, and they are uncomfortable talking about value or bragging, it sounds salesy or markety. You are marketing. You want to present an image and you are telling people about what you are doing. Bob Proctor talks about it: What's so great about that? You have to talk about what's great and what people are getting out of it in the terms that mean something to them because it's not about you. Hugh: Bob Circosta. The Whizcat. You had the Bob part right. I know we know both of them. So Russell, you pinged a couple ideas here. Shannon, we framed this, at least from my limited perspective, in promoting upcoming events. What about continuing to share the important things we are doing, the big successes, as a follow-up to an event or as an ongoing communication with the media? Is that any different than promoting an event or something coming up? Shannon: Even an event, there are ways you want to craft it. What education piece can you contribute? What education piece is your nonprofit? They are always looking for that type of information. If there is something in the media that is happening now that you can piggyback on, that can really get you some traction and mileage. I am just going to use this example. We had one woman tie in Donald Trump in her article and media, and they picked it up and went wild with it. If you are in real estate and the real estate market, something is happening with that trend, see what is in the media and what people are talking about. If there is a way to craft around a story what is happening there, that is a great way to get some steam. Hugh: Is that called newsjacking? Shannon: Yes. I like that. Hugh: Yeah. You can get some extra buzz, can't you, if you piggyback on what is going on. It could backfire though, couldn't it? Shannon: Yeah. I am always real mindful of religion and politics. Don't let that stop you. You just want to be careful. You're right, Hugh. What I have noticed about marketing is that 100% of the time they are inaccurate about something. I just had to always be thankful for what I got. I have had them spell my last name wrong. There is 100% of the time something has been incorrect. I am grateful for it. I have had bad press. I have also worked with people who have had bad press. There are different levels of bad, but there are also different ways of twisting that. One of my bad press stories, they took a picture of our event road sign, which had our website and our phone number and our company name, and it said, “Road signs are loitering our town.” It was negative news. But it was a half-page photo, so that was great. I had another friend come to me with something that was horrible for her when it happened. She was in a lawsuit, and different things were coming up. She was nervous about her event. She wondered if she didn't do her event, if that negative news would be really bad. They kept writing about her in the paper. They even mentioned her event, and her event sold out like a month in advance. But she was a woman making a difference in the world. Her event was around empowering women and leaving an impact and human trafficking. Despite her personal drama going on, she was a woman with purpose and passion, and she had to keep focused on her vision and mission through doing this. It turned out to be just incredible for her. Hugh: So getting attention and getting to what the essential message is. If I'm hearing you also, we want to set ourselves apart and define what is so important about what we are doing. That is what Russ was talking about with the Whizcat. I have seen a lot, and written a lot, of bad press releases. Give us some of the worst practices and how you would change that. You have seen some bad ones, I'm sure. Shannon: Yes. People spend thousands of dollars on publicists, and then they come to me and say, “Nothing got picked up.” So I look at their press release, and it's an ad. All it is is selling. That is the number one mistake: taking a press release and selling yourself. If you are paying for advertising, that is something that would make sense. But a lot of times, they don't pick it up. Don't put your logo on the top. That is free advertising. I know people have that style, but I found that if you just put the tagline at the very top, add a number if you can- The one I said for my event, the tagline was “85 ways to improve your health in six hours or less.” We had 85 booths, it was a six-hour event, and it was around health. That was a very creative way. People are like, “What is this?” and it got picked up. Do as much as you can to not market yourself. Also, keep it one page. Keep it simple. Double-spaced. Less is more. This concept of more is more is going out the window as a whole in life. I found that less is more because that gets them wanting to connect and ask questions. I know this is off the press release, but you also have to remember that you are talking with them. When you are interviewing them or picking up the phone and they say, “Tell me about this story,” don't talk at them for ten minutes. Just give them this snippet. “I want to share 85 ways to improve your health in six hours or less. It's a great event. I think you guys want to know about it. We want our community to know.” Less is more in each aspect of this to where they are kind of pulling it out of you. Hugh: And the less needs to be valuable. Think about what the essential message is. Back to what Russ said a minute ago, why they should care. We need to hit with the why piece of this. These elements are really good. This goes for social media posting as well: I see people hammering really hard and selling. Getting some coverage, whether you want people to retweet it or share the post or you want the media to pick it up in publications, you can't be arrogant about what you're doing and press it out there like you are selling them a used car. I find that very helpful. Shannon: And the other key piece with the publicity is- Do you care if I go through and tell them what the key components are? Hugh: Go for it. Shannon: This is one of the ways I find it's simple to get millions of dollars in free press. The tagline is at the top. Usually in 12-14 font, 5-7 words. Sometimes it can be a little more. Make that sizzle. The way I have learned to make things sizzle is an ongoing practice, not worrying about what the article is saying, but how to write a tagline. Next time you go into a grocery store, look at Oprah or Cosmo, these magazines that have spent billions of dollars in learning how to craft press releases. Take a picture and look at them and figure out how to use it in your business. “Three strategies, nine tools, how to,” those educational pieces are very easy. Use that to start training your brain to look at what works. If you search “Hubspot blog generator,” you can actually put in three nouns and it will help you come up with catchy titles. It's not perfect. You can play with it. But it will help you get that idea of what is going to get them to pay attention. That is the absolute number one most important thing. Then you go into the introduction, which is the second most important thing. That is where most of the time I invite people to talk about the challenge or the problem. It's best if it has stats, numbers, and references of where you find that information. That is really powerful. That is the number one thing I would select. If you cannot for some reason identify a problem, then you can quote somebody famous. Paul Pilzer is an economist I have used. Einstein, I have seen individuals use. You want it to be relevant. But try to lean toward the stats and talking about the challenge. Usually, 2-3 sentences at the most. Real short and sweet. Allow them to want to pay attention a little more. The second paragraph, there are only three in this process. The second one is the body. In the body, you always start with quoting yourself as an expert. When you quote yourself, it's a formula. You do beginning quote, states Hugh Ballou, transformational leadership expert. With Hugh, I would put Forbes-recognized because guess what? Forbes is a big name. That's a little different than Media Magic. You want to put that big name, but otherwise, keep it general. Then end quote. You are quoting yourself as an expert. It's a statement. It's not a quote like you would put in social media. It's more of a statement about what the problem is that you are a solution for or why it's important to address that. Then you give a few more sentences. It could be five or seven sentences because you want to keep it on one page, double-spaced. That is where you start talking about the solution and driving them toward- if it's a solution for stress, you might give them one solution. In the third paragraph, the call to action could be, “Go to my website to get this information.” Do not sell in the press release. It could be a call to action to the readers or the publisher. This press release is something that could help our community, or it can be a call to action to the readers. Take this information to make your nonprofit go to the next level. At the very bottom, you put your contact information, phone number, and website. Hugh: As tax-exempt organizations—Russ can weigh in on this with his experience in the IRS—we have to be very careful with a call to action because we are not selling, and we can be classified as unrelated business income if we are selling a program or a call to action. When you advertise or do an interview on public radio or TV, they are very restrictive. You can say, “For more information, go to,” and it's typically the homepage of the organization. As charities, we have to craft those statements very carefully. Russ, do you have any more wisdom on that point? Shannon: I just want to say it's actually best to do that whether you're a nonprofit or not. The more you can stay away from selling any type of thing, the better it is. Thank you for bringing that up as far as the rules of nonprofits. Hugh: Russ, do you have some wisdom on that? Thank you, Shannon. Russell: Sure. As far as the call to action for nonprofits is building a good story and telling people where they can get more information. You want to give more information. If you can hit them with facts about the problem you solve and why those facts are important, that is what matters. We ned to move forward on this and take action to solve this problem. Find out how you can get involved. You leave it at that. With a nonprofit, you really have to hammer the problem and why it's important to the people you are trying to reach. Hugh: Russ has noted the steps you just went through with the press release in the chat box. I encourage people to register at nonprofitchat.org to get the notes, which will then send you to the archives so you can get all the history of the nonprofit Exchange. We used to do a separate chat and exchange, and the hashtag was #nonprofitexchange on Twitter, which still goes on simultaneously with this live interview. We found that we wanted to incorporate more energy into one event. So interviewing experts and providing worthy information brings a whole lot of value. We are targeting nonprofits, but this works for businesses, too. I don't think there is anything I've heard that wouldn't work for business publicity, right? Shannon: Correct. Hugh: Thinking about some of the things you have talked about before, the elements of the press kit, is there somewhere on your site that people can get that checklist for the press kit? Shannon: It might be in one of my blogs, but I am not certain. Hugh: I want to see if Russ can grab those five. Go ahead, Shannon. Give us those five. I think it's worth repeating. Some people call it a media kit, a press kit. If I understood, you are doing a physical kit that is hard-copy. Shannon: I have it on my website. I have a Media Access to different radio shows, things I have done in the past. When we talk about showcasing what you have done in the past, either things you have participated in or written about you, having those are great. I do like to have something. There are environments I go into, like CEO Space, to have something that is in a folder or include a disc of you. Most of it I put on the website or send in an email for that initial contact. Hugh: Got it. So the things in the press kit are? Shannon: The expert power bio. The press release. Company pieces. Hugh: Company pieces like? Shannon: A brochure, business cards, flyers about the events, anything regarding your company. Action photos. Hugh: Action photos. People doing stuff. Shannon: Yep. Sample media that you have done, anything you have participated in. And then articles or clippings about you. Hugh: Love it. Was that too fast, Russ? Shannon: As a nonprofit, if you have a fancy annual report, or things you have, I would consider the end report as a company piece that a nonprofit has that you can include in that. I would suggest it anyway. Hugh: If you are sending an email, you could include a link to that website, if it is a lengthy report. Sometimes they are. The reporter could go and search that out. Part of what you ran by before, I'd like you to say more about the title. I find that the title can make a huge amount of difference. You mentioned a way to come up with snazzy titles. I use the Google Keywords tool, and I put in what I think is a good title and it gives me other words around that. It helps me think about other words that maybe I didn't think about. You mentioned using Hubspot, and they have a blog title generator. Shannon: Yeah, that's really great. As you are out looking around, see what's out there. What I found that numbers are the most powerful. That gets people to know, “Okay, there is a system here. This is synchronized.” There is an ending. For some reason, if you can tie numbers into your taglines, that is the best. Looking at how to's. My personal human interest was, I sent it smaller, but they printed, “Paralyzed woman heals with ancient Chinese exercise,” incorporating how you overcome adversity. If you are doing charity work and have an impact on a family or in your mission, you can tie that into the tagline. Hugh: Speaking about- Shannon: I don't say any names. Some individuals will say- I wouldn't say “Hugh Ballou is coming to Melbourne.” This is how a lot of people write press releases. I would say, “Forbes-recognized transformational leadership specialist coming to Melbourne.” I wouldn't mention the name because the name won't mean anything in the title. But the Forbes would. Hugh: Got it. This is a gold mine of very useful information, Shannon. Let's give the name of your book again. Shannon: And then Robert Green has a question on Facebook that I want to answer if he is still with us because I love Robert and I know you do, too. I put you two together. You can get the book at shannongronich.com or on Amazon. You can send in the receipt, or if you do it on my website you get it right away: I give you Jay Abraham's ghostwriter's training on copywriting. It is Copywriting Secrets. Shannongronich.com. Media Magic: Instantly Get Radio, TV, Print, and Internet Press to Give You Limitless Publicity. Hugh: It was a while ago that you wrote it. Shannon: That is a long one. Hugh: That is a testimony. He is a well-read man. Shannon: One of my favorite things in the book that a lot of individuals talk about is I have actually given power words. These power words are really groovy, especially around putting around your power bio. It gets you to think of things like “articulated, created, developed.” Those are verbs that are action/results oriented. There is hundreds of them. I alphabetize them. That right there, people say they look at it all the time. It is a great resource. Hugh: Outstanding. Russell, of course you have read that book, right? Russell: I have. I highlighted a few pieces. It's always good to remind myself when I get stuck for action words in a blog post. This is right here in my office. I remember Shannon's action words and flip it to the page. You can say the same thing with several different words. One of the mistakes I see a lot of nonprofit leaders make is when they are writing things, particularly grants, they use passive language. That was a habit I had for a long time. When you are using that passive language, it doesn't convey the message as quickly and succinctly, so you want to use these action words in grants. Especially when you are quantifying your results and how you are going to measure what you're doing, you want action words. When you are talking about what you are going to accomplish, you want to use these action words. We have the number of people who are on food stamps, for example. You want to have these action words there so they are operative and available. In the press release, it has to be short, snappy, and get them to *audio cut* Shannon: Russell, do you find that when you're submitting a grant- And I want to make sure we get to Robert Green's question. Do you find that when you're submitting a grant that them knowing they have media exposure, do you ever submit where they have been in the media, with publicity, with grant proposals? Russell: Depends on what the request for proposal asks for. If you have been highlighted or featured, that is always a piece to add to your credibility. In most bios for board members and that type of thing, the important things you put in there are these are the things we have done. If you have gotten those numbers or results for things you have done in the past with other projects that go into that, that is pretty powerful. It adds to the credibility. You have that in the press kit. I would add that into the nonprofit press kit. Who has funded you? Who have you worked with? What results have you managed to get with other or similar programs, especially if you are following up with something? Now let's take it to the next level and have people come back to learn more about it. Hugh: Really good advice. That whole thing, Russ, about passive language- Russ is a gifted writer, as you might guess, so he pays attention to those things. There is a huge difference in how people are going to receive it. Shannon, what is this question that has been lingering out there? Shannon: Robert Green, with Think Global Start Local, says, “I am on a mission to inspire people to do more planned giving to support nonprofits in general, and one in particular. This is a sophisticated proposition. This is really about shifting people from being considered donors to meaningful donors. Is this something I can craft into a well-written press release or a story?” Absolutely, Robert. I can see a few angles with that. One is the education piece of letting people know the benefits of that, the impact they are having. There are other benefits, like tax benefits. Thinking about the education piece of the benefits. Also, if there are any meaningful stories that can be crafted around this of individuals who have done the meaningful donation, there is probably a number of angles you can take with that press release. Hugh: Thank you, Robert, for that really good question. Sometimes the donations are like a sympathy card. What we want to do. That paradigm shift he is suggesting is so important. We want meaningful supporters who make meaningful donations. I think what people want to know is what is going to happen as a result of my donation? You referenced it when you said what is the impact of the work that you do? Russ talked about it when he said earlier on about the why piece. I keep going back to that. If you have a why piece, why do people need this? To couple it with the impact, and you quote yourself and others in your organization, then they know you have the leadership ability with you and your team to actually accomplish it. There is also a rhythm of getting information out, Shannon, isn't there? You want to be covered on a regular basis so the cumulative impact is stronger than a one-time release. Shannon: This is where if I could leave individuals with anything is scheduling this as part of your operations. It is a meaningful and worthwhile and impactful way. Especially fi you are a nonprofit where you are struggling and don't have much of a marketing budget. I tell you that if you are spending anything on marketing, incorporate this free publicity piece because you can actually expand your marketing dollars even beyond that. Hopefully my story of taking an event from 500 to 2,000 people shows you the value of putting time and energy into this. I have had thousands of dollars in one particular project in publicity and am able to turn that into some great things. Please look at this as part of your operation and plan is getting that coverage on a regular basis. Sometimes you get it and they say, “This isn't going to work,” so you have to tweak the tagline. Even with an expert who has done it a number of times, most of the time, I nail it now, but as you are learning how to do this, you are building relationships and moving things forward. Yes, you should be every week spending time getting yourself out there. Hugh: I want to invite people to check out Nonprofit Performance Magazine at nonprofitperformance.org. We do useful articles. The next edition will be on boards. Shannon, if we wanted to craft a press release on the new board member or the importance of the people on our board, would that seem to be newsworthy if we have high people in our organization doing good work? Speak a minute about that. It seems self-serving or kissing up to people, but in the other sense, it is celebrating a person who has a lot of connections and a lot of value to the community, and they are putting the value into the work we are doing as a charity. Is there a press release piece around new board members or new board initiatives to celebrate the power of the board that we have? Shannon: Absolutely. I would try in your press release to keep it as singular-focused as possible. If you have six people on your board, look at doing some individually. But a new board member would be welcoming. Focusing on what their expertise is that they are bringing to the table. If they are somebody like Hugh Ballou who has been in Forbes, you can name drop. Russell: Shamelessly, at that. Hugh: I love it. I love it. Shannon: It's true. You are such a prime example of when you have had certain levels of accomplishment that are internationally recognized, those are opportunities to name drop and leverage that with your board. It's telling the story where we are welcoming this new person. Here is what they are bringing to the table. Quoting them. This is a place to quote them on the impact they are going to be leaving here. Quotes are real short and sweet. It's one sentence with you in the middle. Hugh: Love it. Think about a parting thought. Maybe there is another tip or thought you want to leave us with. Shannon, you have given us some very useful stuff in this interview, thank you so much. As we are winding down and wrapping up this hour, which has gone way too fast, what is a parting tip or thought you would like to leave people with? Shannon: I just want to share one of the biggest transformations that I see in this media kit process. That is the power of the expert power bio. I did give you the 12-step power bio at shannongronich.com/powerbio. Going through this process and creating that, I have seen this for me personally be able to get wages like an attorney. I have seen individuals get speaking gigs that they didn't necessarily get before. The expert power bio is usually one of the first places I start with people because it has the greatest impact on the results that we have in multiple areas of the nonprofit. When you are talking to donors or media, when you are looking at proposals or agreements, if you don't have that, put energy and time on that because right now, there are thousands of dollars of publicity waiting for you. There are stages waiting for you. There are radio interviews waiting for you. They just need to know who you are and why they want to pay attention. Hugh: Wise words. Russ, thank you as always for being so diligent in capturing the sound bites that matter. Shannon, thank you for sharing your wisdom with the nonprofit world. Shannon: Awesome. Thank you, Hugh, for your work. I can't say enough for how grateful I am and all the lives you have touched in my world at our events. Hugh is on our executive team, so he is just a rock star. Thank you, Hugh. And thank you, Russell. I love you, too. Russell: Good to see you again. I love this. Like I said, this book is in my office. Shameless promotion. It is best to let your friends recognize you, Shannon.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Lydia Guarino @lydiaguarino | data.world | GitHub Shannon Byrne @s_byrne | Blog | GitHub | shannon@emberitas.com Stephanie Riera @stefriera | The Frontside | GitHub Show Notes: 01:23 - Emberitas 02:50 - Developing Curriculum For Women By Women 10:16 - Pairing People Together 12:14 - The Volunteers and Support 18:42 - Getting Women to Attend Meetups 23:20 - Icebreaking Exercises 27:42 - Takeaways From the Event 33:35 - The Future of Emberitas 36:10 - Favorite Parts of the Event Resources: @iheartemberitas Ember ATX Women Who Code The Iron Yard Tilde Women Who Code Austin Slack Community We Speak Too ember-women Transcript: CHARLES: Hello everybody and welcome to The Frontside Podcast Episode 52. We're coming to you live from Frontside HQ where we can help you zero in on that precise experience that you want for your users. So, if that's something that you're interested in, go ahead and reach out to us at Frontside.io. Today, actually we got a pretty large panel today. It's a hardcore Austin posse - Lydia Guarino, Shannon Byrne, and Stephanie Riera. And we're going to be talking about kind of a passion project of theirs called Emberitas. We're going to be digging deep into it. But before we get into that, I want to introduce everybody. Lydia is a product engineer at Data.World which is a social network for your data. It's actually a really cool startup where you can go and you can upload your data and you can see other public data sets and slice and dice them. It's really cool. Shannon, who has been a developer since 2013, is kind of in the startup scene and been ubiquitous certainly in the circles that we've run in here in Austin. And so, her latest gig has been as a code school instructor teaching JavaScript and Ruby on the full stack. And of course, you've heard Stephanie on the podcast many times. She's a developer here at the Frontside. Without further ado, let's talk about Emberitas. What exactly is Emberitas and how did it get started? SHANNON: Emberitas is a 1-day 2-track workshop for teaching Ember to women. Last year, what was it? Like April maybe of last year, or maybe March, we were at an Ember ATX meetup. Brandon and Charles were talking about how to get more diversity into the Ember meetup. And then, of course, Lydia and Stephanie and I, as sort of the token ladies of Ember ATX, kind of huddled in a circle and we talked about how other communities in Austin were doing things. And of course, there's Rails Girls which is a 1-day workshop to teach girls programming through a little bit of Rails. We were like, "Why not do the same thing with Ember?" And so, after that, we just kind of picked up on everything, split up a lot of the work, decided we were going to do it, and made it happen. And we hosted our own 1-day workshop for teaching women who had no knowledge of coding some of the basics of HTML, CSS, and JavaScript through Ember. And then taught other women in town who maybe were using Angular or had some experience with Rails or whatever, but didn't know what Ember was, the basics of Ember, so that they could then take that back to their companies and make more Ember jobs for all of us. CHARLES: For someone who's worked on trainings before and tried to develop them, how challenging was it to develop a curriculum for women -- literally, all spectra of experience with development. It sounds like a difficult task. And I'm curious what considerations did you take in when you were developing this curriculum and what did it encompass? LYDIA: One of the things that we did to make that a little easier on ourselves is we split the workshop into two tracks. We had a beginner track and then we also had an intermediate track. Shannon ran with the intermediate track and I ran with the beginner track with an understanding that for beginners, there's a lot more discussion about some of the basics of web development in general or how you think of a project and how you start with the basic building blocks of HTML and CSS, and then grow into building an application. For the beginner course, what I wanted to focus on was taking those basic building blocks and showing how they can be converted into an application. We actually started with making static web pages and then converted those gradually in pieces into an Ember application. Ember actually makes that pretty straightforward to do because there's such strong conventions that there's obvious places to put all of that information. So, we built everything in HTML and CSS, and then we came back and layered on Ember on top of that but the project was the same in both scenarios. And I'll let Shannon talk a little bit about how she approached the more advance course. SHANNON: For the intermediate course, one of the challenges was that it was very open as to what that would mean. It wasn't intermediate Ember; it was an introduction to Ember for anyone who considered themselves a developer. So we had some people who came in and they had a little bit of JavaScript experience and then we had some people who were already full stack JavaScript developers and then some people who had experience with like an NPC framework. People were kind of coming from all over the place, was my expectation. And so, it was kind of difficult to approach that, to be honest. I wasn't really sure what to do and I had a lot of false starts as, I'm sure, most people do who kind of create tutorials. Now that I'm working on curriculum for a code school, the same thing happens. There's definitely a lot of after the fact, being like 'duh'. Now I know I should have done it this way. But the way that I approached it was really just a result of conversations that Lydia and I had been having for years, which is how there's sort of some unique differences on what we've seen for how women kind of communicate and learn a little bit differently especially when they're in our classes and the experiences cater just to them. So, I just kind of went off of that and said, "Okay, how do I like to learn?" And then kind of applied that to how I developed the curriculum. It was a lot of, "Well, you might think we could do this, but actually that doesn't work. Let's try this." And so you go through it and it's kind of like a lot of false starts, a lot of learning together, a lot of like having these tiny little frustrations that you normally have when you're coding, and then achieving something together. And so the ultimate goal of both the beginner curriculum and the intermediate curriculum was not to teach everybody everything about Ember in one day, but to give them the confidence that they could go out and do whatever they wanted with Ember or just explore more about development in general, after that workshop. CHARLES: That makes me curious, Shannon, if you can unpack that a little bit more. You said that there were challenges and things that you took into account in developing this curriculum that was specifically for an all-woman studentship. Can you elaborate on that? What were some of the concrete things that you made that you custom-tailored? SHANNON: To be completely honest, there weren't a whole lot of things that I could really custom-tailor. It was more just thinking about the things that I had witnessed in terms of working with women specifically, and seriously as a result of the conversations that I've had with Lydia, trying to be much more conversational, trying to allow the questions that generally arose sort of drive what we did instead of being very rigid about how we did it, and the approach that I thought was going to work. And generally, just kind of being like quick on my feet and allowing the course to go at the pace that it should go and not trying to force anything, and really mostly trying to read the room and understand that we might not get to everything in one day. LYDIA: From the very beginning, from the very conception of this idea, we wanted to build something by women for women. And so, it was really important that we chose female instructors which is one of the reasons that Shannon and I volunteered to be the instructors ourselves when maybe we would have wanted to seek someone else to take that piece of it. But this is something that we were personally passionate about and we knew how we learned Ember and how we could translate that into something that would be accessible to the broader community of women in Austin. So, we did some targeting with specific groups in Austin that were women-driven. So, Women Who Code has a big following in Austin and we reached out to that community and we made sure that all of the sessions were, like Shannon mentioned, collaborative. For instance, in the beginner course, everyone worked as partners. You weren't just sitting there by yourself isolated with your own level of knowledge, you have somebody to bounce ideas off of you, you have somebody right next to you to ask your little secretive questions where you're a little embarrassed to raise your hand but you need someone to quick correct you. I also made sure that when I was teaching the course itself, it was less lecture and more tutorial which allowed me to walk around the room and actually speak to each individual pair about where they were in the process. So, instead of losing people throughout the course because they had slipped behind, I knew where everybody was for the entire day. While that slows down the overall speed for some of the faster people, it meant that we didn't have anybody take off at lunchtime which is a problem for a lot of workshops as somebody gets so far behind that they just give up. That was something that we wanted to try really hard to avoid with this particular workshop. SHANNON: Another thing that I want to say, if I can go back and fix my sort of bumbling before about what I specifically did. I thought about something I actually specifically did. In a lot of online tutorials, what I found is that it will tell you to do something but it doesn't quite tell you why. And answering that 'why' question is something that's always really important to me when I'm learning something new, so I added a lot of that into the tutorials that we did. Either out loud I would explain it or I would say, "For anyone who's interested, there's a link in the curriculum that will tell you exactly what that is," a much longer explanation of what a computed property is, why that works, and sort of even some of the internals in JavaScript if people were curious in learning that, to answer that why question for attendees. CHARLES: The 'why' is a question that unfortunately gets such short shrift in almost everything that we do. It's like shocking unless you see the absence of why. The other thing I wanted to ask too, Lydia, was you talked about making sure that everybody was paired up so that nobody got behind. Were you deliberate in kind of making sure? I know you had something like 40 students in the first one, so it can be difficult to kind of assess the skill level of each one. But were you able to be deliberate in those pairings and to kind of match people with a productive set of skills? LYDIA: I think that it's actually a little bit dangerous to have people label themselves before they get into a project. So instead of saying 'hey, if you've had some experience here, maybe work with somebody that's never seen this before', I tried to avoid that. So I actually let them choose their partners -- rather I just assigned them based on where they were sitting in the room. And for any kind of gaps we had there, if I had one pair where those people had way less experience than another group, we had an army of volunteers that were available to come and kind of sit down next to one of the pairs and help them work through the pieces. And I think that that's one of the major things that helped the day running smoothly because instead of having to have me come over and help them over and over again, we had somebody that could kind of more quietly come over and sit down and work through the tougher pieces or if someone got stuck on a bug, help them untangle it. CHARLES: I think that's fantastic because having participated in running trainings before, I know that's one of the biggest challenges of keeping everybody together and moving forward in unison is making sure that everyone can do things like do an npm-install. I had an entire training derailed because one person just could not figure out how do it. It was basically just Brandon and I and it was terrible. I guess the question is how many volunteers did it take to make that go smoothly? And I guess the follow on question is do you think that's indicative of kind of the Ember community at large when you guys proposed this event that you were able to really draw on this large pool of ready volunteers to show up? LYDIA: The volunteers were actually a strategic move that Shannon and I spoke about early on which was that part of what we wanted to do is show how welcoming and how supportive the Ember community in Austin is. And so, most of the volunteers that we had on hand were actually members of Ember ATX that were interested in increasing diversity as well. So these were people that they could meet in events and people that would encourage them to come back to a meetup next month or whatever. And you could see these are like really approachable, fantastic people and they're ready to help and they're excited about having you join our community. To keep it running smoothly, to answer that question, we were kind of split. Shannon's had a little bit more people in it than mine but I ended up having close to 20 people. So I had 10 pairs. I actually had almost as many volunteers as I had pairs. So we had some drifters floating between the two classes. But at any given time, I had at least five people running around the room in addition to myself. So, that's a lot of volunteers to coordinate, but we actually had a lot of support from Ember ATX and from people that really wanted to help out. SHANNON: That's a huge ask to ask 10/15 people to come out for the whole day on a Saturday. Even for attendees, that's a lot to ask people to do. And to have so many people from the Ember community in Austin come out and do that, I don't think -- maybe there was one volunteer, Lydia's husband, who didn't know any Ember. But everyone else was from the Ember community and either did Ember professionally or as a hobby, so it worked out really well like that. I was really glad to see that because the whole reason that I do Ember is because of the people that I met at the Ember meetup and I keep going back. And that warmth that I feel about the Ember community is kind of why I feel so great about doing Ember and why I choose to do Ember professionally is because that feeling that I have kind of follows me around while I code in Ember which is kind of silly. CHARLES: I don't think it's really silly at all. I think that's so much of the pervading narrative is that technology is about technology when in fact it's about people in the community. And I think it's great that kind of almost as just by virtue of holding the event and having those volunteers, what you're giving them is not just a set of tools but also you're kind of giving them a small part, that being the benefit of it is giving them this community. SHANNON: What was really excellent too and I think what made us be able to kind of coordinate with the volunteers really well is that Lydia and I were running the classes but Steph was really in charge of coordinating the day and making sure that things run smoothly and making sure the volunteers knew where they needed to be and where they could be most helpful because our challenge was that we actually were in two different spaces. We were able to get space donated to us by The Iron Yard but the Iron Yard campus in Austin is actually like there's kind of a field between their two locations where the classrooms are and where their main space was. And so, what kind of happened was that without Steph kind of like wrangling the volunteers into the right place, the volunteers were kind of forgetting that there was this kind of second intermediate location to come to. And so, I'm so thankful that she was able to be there and just be focused on coordinating the day of type stuff to make sure that everything ran smoothly. STEPHANIE: Thank you, Shannon. That's so sweet. I did want to make a quick mention about the volunteers. I feel like, especially in our industry, we hear a lot about the "brogrammer" and we give a lot of slack to men, particularly white men in the tech industry. I think it's very important to highlight most of the volunteers that we had were all men. And it's these men that are spending their Saturday there to coach and teach women. I think it's a very beautiful thing to see because a lot of these women, I think, they are intimated by going to meetups and going to hackathons because they feel like it's not an inclusive environment and they can't ask questions in a room full of guys. I think that's indicative of 'that's not always the case'. Yes, there might be a problem in the tech industry but there are also people that care and you can see that through the volunteers. SHANNON: It's no lie that the three of us were really the only girls at Ember ATX until we put Emberitas on. We didn't have a large pool of experienced -- not even experienced Ember developers, but even people who had just sat down to try out Ember in Austin who were female to pull from. And so that was always the go-to was to make this so that we could have this be able to diversify Ember ATX in one way by bringing more women in, but also just to make the community stronger overall. I'll say again the Ember community is far and above the best programming community in Austin and I wanted to make sure that every other girl at least had the opportunity to know why I rave about Ember meetups and the Ember community and everything about Ember. And that doesn't just go for Austin, obviously. To shout out as well to Leah, who already does so much with Women Helping Women in Austin, Tilde actually donated a bunch of extra swag to us from the Ember Conf from last year, Ember Conf 2016. So, that saved us a ton of money that we got to use towards other stuff. And then saving money on that, then we got to do a happy hour after that we also invited sponsors and the rest of the community, too. We had a bunch of Ember community members who weren't able to spend the day with us volunteering but they still came out and had a couple of free drinks and got to chat with all the attendees as well. So overall, the whole day was really fun and full of Ember community members. CHARLES: Personally, I'm so sad that I missed it. I was out of the country although it was on my birthday. So, it was like a good birthday present to know that that was like going on in my community back home. Having not been to so many Ember meetups since, have you all noticed and I guess this is really just kind of a question for the four, have you noticed real traction like an uptick in the number of women in attendance and kind of an increase in that level of interest from women in the community at large? LYDIA: The meetup right afterwards had a pretty major uptick because a lot of the people that had come in through Women Who Code and are already kind of avid meetup goers took a chance and came to the meetup. And I've seen several of them come to a couple of the other ones throughout the year. There's at least two people that I've seen repeat show up a bunch of times. When you've got a meetup of about 40 people and even if you just increase it by two more, that's like actually moving the needle pretty significantly. The trick about increasing diversity, that's a little bit above chicken and the egg problem, is that the best way to get women to attend is to have women attend. And so, you want to have some women in the room when other women come for the first time because then it becomes a welcoming environment and you can start kind of the snowball effect of, "Okay, I'm welcome here. I see that this person is comfortable in this setting. That means that I'm going to have an easy time integrating here as well." SHANNON: The timing in terms of -- if we were to do this again actually, one thing I'd improve is to make sure that all three of us could be at the upcoming Ember meetup and that we plan to do it the week before the Ember meetup, so that energy is high and all that kind of stuff. But I think there was something that prevented each of the three of us from maybe even being at that next Ember meetup which really was not a good idea. Maybe one of the three of us was there. So, that's something that I'd like to improve upon is being more strategic about fulfilling on that goal. And then another thing that I'd like to do as well like we have Women Who Code slack channel here in Austin and we have an Emberitas room now and we do actually chat on there. And I'd like to incorporate that into what we do as well, is having a community for the women who met there to continue speaking online, so that we can develop that community and I can post in there and say, "Ooh, there's an Ember meetup tonight. Let's all go." But I know a lot of them. I think a lot of them went to an event together that I didn't know about. When Yehuda was in town, I think a handful of people talked about going to that and they met up through the Women Who Code Ember room. So, that's cool. CHARLES: That's fantastic. I actually think this is a good opportunity to plug something that I learned about through [Emily], who is Alex's girlfriend, is the WeSpeakToo which I think is another good way. You talked about that Catch 22, the chicken and the egg of the best way to have women to attend is to have women attend. I also think the best way to have women attend is to have women speak. And to see that in terms of leadership, there's representation there. And so, there's a tool that I just found out about that I think is really cool that helps kind of solve that Catch 22 or lower the friction if you were a meetup organizer. You can go and you can find there's a list of women in Austin, it's only in DC and Austin, but it's coupled with an analysis of the ratios of female, male, and non-binary speakers in Austin. There's a signup sheet where you can go if you're a woman or you're non-binary and you can sign up and you can enlist your levels of expertise. And if you're a meetup organizer -- you hear a lot of people say, "Where do I find someone who can speak at my meetup?" And so, that tool exists now. Everything's for Austin. If you go to wespeaktoo.org/austin, there it is. I certainly hope the three of you guys are on that list if you're not already because I've seen each one of you speak and there's a lot to share there with the community. And so, if you're listening too, I think it's also a good resource if you're in the DC area or in Austin area or if you want to bring it to your own city. Anyway, I just wanted to share that as what I thought is a cool tool. SHANNON: And to plug another list too. I have to get the URL, I don't know it off the top of my head. But Leah for Women Helping Women put together a list of female Ember speakers to make that available to all the Ember meetups. But even if you're a non-Ember person, these are a list of really great speakers. Some of them spoke at Ember Conf last year, other people who put in their proposals and then other people who were just like interested in speaking locally. She has that list somewhere and I'll try and find the link to it. CHARLES: I will definitely look for that. The other thing that I wanted to talk about before we moved on was we've talked about how you paired people up, you talked about kind of a tight-knit community you created and they were going not just Ember meetups kind of user group but also the bonds that were formed were maintained as they went to other meetups. When we were talking about this part of the podcast, you mentioned some of the icebreaking exercises that you did but you didn't give any specifics. You didn't give any details. I want to hear about this and I want to hear what the best ones were because I'm so curious. Again, I'll just throw this question up. What was it that you did to kind of break that ice and what were the best results that you saw? SHANNON: The icebreaker was actually a little bit of a happy accident. We had budgeted time for an icebreaker at the beginning and it was something that kept slipping down the priority list until the morning off. And on the morning off, we had discussed different brainstorming ideas beforehand but we hadn't settled on anything. And in the morning off, we were like, "You know what we should do is we should have them as a group act out programming terms or programming concepts." As a group, they had to decide on a way to explain some programming concepts like a wow loop or http or something like that. They had to describe that physically. STEPHANIE: Also, we use HTML too which is a hard one. CHARLES: Did you just write them on cards and hand them out to people? LYDIA: Yes. I literally was scribbling a list as people were walking in of terms that we thought would probably possibly work. And then we've split them up into groups and passed them out. I have to say people came up with the most creative things. It went so much better than I would have ever dreamed. CHARLES: Is any of this on video? What was the best one? SHANNON: I have the wow loop dance. I think it's posted on the Emberitas instagram page that you can all go check out. It was so funny. They all went up there and while one of them was clapping, all the rest of them had a dance. And then when she stopped clapping, they'd stopped dancing. And so, it's really straightforward but it was just hilarious and sort of the big personalities of some of the extroverts in the room were given their chance to shine there in the morning and I was laughing so hard. It went a lot better than I think we expected it to since we had done zero preparation. LYDIA: That said, Shannon put together a fantastic survey at the end so that we can kind of gather feedback on how to make this better in the future. And we had several comments about the icebreakers themselves. And one of the things that we might want to tweak in the future is exactly how we let different people participate in that activity because some people that were a little bit more reserved, a little bit shier like starting out the day with basically public speaking or a performance was a little bit rough. Now, I'm going to argue that when you push somebody out of the comfort zone as soon as they show up for the day, everything else is going to be great because they've already stepped outside of their comfort zone and they've already done the thing that's going to pull them out of their shell and be able to talk to other people in the room. CHARLES: Right. The point of those things is vulnerability and to make it safe to be vulnerable. And so, someone who is definitely in, someone who walks around into these groups as a shell, I definitely see the value in that. SHANNON: The other thing too is one of the positive things about an icebreaker like this is you could kind of take a backseat or kind of [inaudible] off to the side, so we didn't require everyone to say something out loud either. So, there are positives and negatives. I think that was like an overall learning thing about doing this is for me, I definitely am a perfectionist and I want everything to go perfectly and I want everything to be exactly my way. It was learning that no matter how well something goes, you can't please everyone 100%. And getting the feedback on the surveys and just seeing how, for some people, the icebreaker was their favorite part of the day. For other people, it was their least favorite part. Some people wanted more workshop time, other people wanted way less workshop time and to focus more on community building and this and that. And so, we can't please everyone but we've really pulled off something really cool that I think made a lot of the stakeholders very happy. CHARLES: Yeah, definitely, which kind of goes right into my next question which I'm going to ask to all of you is what do you feel are kind of like the key things that you learned from this based on the survey, based on your experience, based on conversations with the participants and observations later on? What was it that you feel like was kind of your biggest takeaway? Why don't we start with you, Lydia? LYDIA: For me, the biggest takeaway was that it really makes such an enormous impact for women to see other women speaking and women putting these types of workshops and things on for other women. That was the one thing that stood out to me the most in the feedback was that people were just so excited to see someone relatable up in front of them giving these presentations. And that having the opportunity to see a room full of women that were interested in the same things that they were interested in was incredibly inspiring and encouraged them to kind of go out on a limb and try something that they hadn't tried before and follow up in the future with more meetups and things like that, which was precisely the goal. I feel like our primary goal was to get women to feel like this was an accessible community and I feel like that was where we excelled the most. CHARLES: How about you, Stephanie? STEPHANIE: I wanted to piggy back off of what she just talked about because I, myself, we just touched on something earlier and it was about the feeling of being uncomfortable. It's no secret that and I said it there, I hate public speaking. Absolutely hate it, it terrifies me. I hate doing podcasts, I hate doing all kinds of speaking. But I realized how important it is. And then as Shannon was saying like you can plan and you want to try as hard as you can to make everything go as smoothly and perfect as possible, but sometimes things will happen. And I remember at one point of the day, she came up to me and asked me a favor and was like, "Hey…" She had been emceeing all day and asked, "Do you mind doing the middle part?" And I think it was talking about Ember ATX and why it was important to do this workshop and all of that. So I was caught completely unprepared and I was very hesitant. But in that moment, I thought to myself, "Well, we are choosing to be leaders in the community. We are choosing to put ourselves out there and do something for the greater good. I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to force myself to do it." I think it went well. The first bit of it, I was very nervous and I just admitted it to everyone. But someone else came up to me afterwards and told me, "I think it meant a lot to people to see someone just take something on and speak from their heart, and you can see that they're so nervous but they're still doing it." And so, that's the point I wanted to make was yes, I'm uncomfortable with it but it's the only way you can grow as an individual. I also want to send a message through that which is yes, we're all women, we're all bad ass, we all have this purpose that we want to achieve and we're doing it. So, that was my biggest takeaway. So, thank you, Shannon, for that unexpected request. SHANNON: Yeah. That kind of came as a result of like I was trying to emcee and teach and I went up to Steph and she was like, "I'm nervous!" And I was like, "Look, I need to lay down. I've been talking all day. My brain is mushed." And she did such a great job and I was so happy that you did that. For me, I would say Lydia definitely covered all of the philanthropic reasons that this is important and why it went so well and everything that was great. For me, I think that I had been going through some stuff. Like sometimes I question - am I really good at what I'm doing? Am I doing the right thing? Can I accomplish this? The sort of questions that everybody has. Taking this on and sort of planning it from start to finish on our own, doing all the marketing, getting all the sponsorships, getting all the attendees, communicating with all the attendees, trying to pretend that we were kind of more official than we were. I was individually texting people to their numbers and it would be like, "Reply with STOP if you no longer want these texts." Just to make it look like we were something official when really like I'm copying and pasting from one person to the next. And we're trying to get literally everything done, just the handful of us that were working on this. It made me start thinking about what do I really want to do. I had never truly considered teaching other people to code until this. And now, I'm trying that out. Since then, through Emberitas, we've done another lecture series for high schoolers. We did a weekend workshop for high school girls and honestly, it opened up something in me and I was like, "We need to be teaching high school-aged kids to code." I know that's something that a lot of organizations are trying to do but I now have a very specific idea of how I want to approach that. It really gave me a lot of confidence that I really needed at the time. I think that I threw myself so hard into doing Emberitas was because I needed something to really be passionate about it at the time. And then it gave back to me everything that we put into it and I was so fortunate for that. Just to watch everyone having such a good time and everyone learning something and just the look on someone's face when they get something and then the look of someone's face when they make something is so cool. And that's just what I loved about this whole experience. CHARLES: Yeah. It sounds wonderful. Here we are in 2017, what's next? Are there any further events that we can look forward to? Are there any grand plans? I mean, you kind of alluded to some of that, doing more education for targeting a younger age group? What can we look forward to? Why don't we start with, Shannon? What can we look forward to in 2017?
SHANNON: What you can look forward to in 2017 is me updating the website a little bit. It's still the typo-ed place it was at the very last day before the workshop. So, I need to update that so that people can get more information and contact us if they're interested because I have had a lot of people reach out to me over Twitter, through our Facebook page, all that kind of stuff, asking when we're going to do this again, and if we're going to do it in other cities than Austin. What was really cool was all of our curriculum is open source, so we put that out there and we told on our Twitter that people could check out our curriculum. And one morning, we just started getting ding…ding….ding…ding…ding…all of these GitHub pull requests from people in Seattle. And it turned out that a code school in Seattle was using it as part of their curriculum. And so, a couple of those girls reached out and we're like, "Oh, we might be interested in posting one of these in Seattle." And so, hopefully doing something like that would be really fun. Additionally, just kind of improving the curriculum. We need to sit down and kind of click out the best things about how we approach doing the beginner curriculum, the best things about how we approach doing the intermediate curriculum, and sort of entwine those together. So, a lot of kind of behind the scenes work to get things in place and then a lot of planning to put on the next one. And so, the biggest thing that limits us from putting on more is money. We need sponsors and we kind of already hit up everybody who does Ember here in Austin. So, we're going to have to expand our reach if we want to put on another one of these at the same quality that we did before. CHARLES: So, you heard it here. If you're interested in seeing this happen, by all means, reach out and send money. SHANNON: Yeah. CHARLES: Lots of money. SHANNON: You can email me: Shannon@emberitas.com, if you want to talk about any of those things. Or hit up our Twitter or our Instagram. Yeah, there's place to contact us if you're interested in helping us out in any way. STEPHANIE: And it's also important to point out that a lot of those sponsors gave lightning talks. SHANNON: Yup. STEPHANIE: So, you can have your plugs in there. SHANNON: Yeah. You can show up and have a captive audience for five minutes. CHARLES: Alrighty. In closing, again, I want to kind of go around and ask what was the number one -- we talked about kind of mistakes that were made, things that were learned. In terms of the number one impactful thing that you feel like this event had and this kind of process had either for the external world or even for the internal world, like affecting the way that you work day to day. What has that been? What has that been for you, Lydia? LYDIA: My favorite part of the entire thing was that some of my best friends and I decided to build a thing that we cared about. And then we watched it grow into something amazing, and then we got to see the people that got to enjoy the beautiful thing that we built. It was just one of those moments where you feel really proud about deciding to take a risk and deciding to kind of put yourself out there and do something that is outside of your comfort zone that makes it totally worthwhile and makes it so that you want to do it again, and again, and again. And I'm just really grateful that Shannon and Steph thought this was a cool idea and just had to make it a real thing. SHANNON: I was just thinking, as usual Lydia says it best. That's exactly what was so great about it was we did it together, it was great, we want to do it again, we want other people to do it. There's something so inherently rewarding about this experience and it was just so much fun. And I'm so glad that I got to do it with the two of these guys. CHARLES: Yeah. I think just kind of watching from the sidelines, just the energy that it generated. I think it touched everybody who participated, who volunteered, and even people like me who just kind of watched it from the sidelines as part of the general community. And so, I am really looking forward to what you guys are going to bring in the future. And I really hope that you don't allow it to just fall by the wayside and that there is some continuance of it. And I promise I will participate this time. But thank you, thank you, thank you so much for doing that. It really was wonderful. Thank you all for coming by and sharing the story of Emberitas. You can find them on Emberitas.com or if you want to reach out directly over Twitter, it's @iheartemberitas. Hopefully, we get to hear from you and we'll continue the discussion. And thank again. Thanks everybody for listening and thanks to you guys for coming. SHANNON: Thanks for having us.

Hugh: Greetings, this is Hugh Ballou. My special guest today is my dear friend and colleague, Shannon Gronich. We have known each other at least ten years. We met at a CEO Space event and have had casual conversations the last few years. Shannon has invited me to be a presenter at the Business Acceleration Summit in Melbourne, Florida. Whoa, has that been a power-packed event. I have learned more and more about Shannon’s multiple gifts. Today’s topic is how social entrepreneurs get publicity. We do great stuff, but nobody knows about it. Well, let’s tell people. Shannon, welcome. Shannon: Thank you so much. How to get free publicity is what I am really excited about. Hugh: Give us some background. I always want to know why this person is qualified to talk about this. I could read a bio or something, but it’s much more fun to hear it from the person themselves. Talk about yourself. Shannon: I love events. I produce close to 400 events. Within the process of doing events, I learn how to really work with the media, what they are looking for in stories. I came up with a simple system. I have gotten over three million dollars in free publicity and have developed a simple system that anybody could do the same. You don’t have to be a copywriter; you don’t even have to be a good writer. It’s something that when you use this format, it is a great way to attract publicity. Hugh: How many dollars? Three million dollars in free publicity? Shannon: Yes. Hugh: And you have produced 400 events? That’s mind-boggling. That’s impressive. People actually come and attend these events, I assume. Shannon: We have had thousands of people attend some of the events I have done. Hugh: That would tell me that this publicity thing works. Let’s get into your topic. I am a small business owner. I work by myself, I have done lots of good stuff, I have great social media, but I’m not sure I make it work really well. I also have a charity that does lots of good stuff. I’m not sure I get the publicity I deserve there. What are the problems you see with small business owners and social entrepreneurs? Shannon: It’s exactly what you just shared. You have these two amazing projects that you are working on, and it’s actually getting media attention, but also getting what is already existing to amplify and attract more. A lot of times, businesses are spending so much time working on their business that they don’t take time on marketing. I always tell people that if you are not getting the results you want, look at some of these key components, one being your press kit. Spending more time on your market. I know that with one of my first events, before we first cracked this code, we were getting 500 attendees. Once we cracked that code, the next time it went to 2,000 attendees. We had all the media in our area pick it up. The story was awesome. There were different variations. That type of impact took time, dealing with rejection because we had a number of people say no, they didn’t read it or no, I’m not the right department. You have to be okay with following up, but as you can hear, to go from 500 to 2,000, that was absolutely worth putting in that energy to get such a high return. Hugh: Amazing. Usually I am told by marketers that you need to spend $100 per person to get people there. You are telling me this is another model. Shannon: Yeah. There are a couple challenges I hear from people. They hire a publicist. I love them; I think there is a lot they can do. They hire a publicist and don’t get the results they want. I am big on empowering people to learn some of the tools, the language so that when they hire somebody or when they are sending out a piece, they know it will get the results. At the end of the day, it is all about the results you are going to get. The second thing is also as you said, spending the money but spending the time. If you turn some of that into time, taking time to get on the phone or develop a story or have a conversation with the media to sell them, not giving them too much information, but putting this together, I have seen people spend a lot less on their marketing and many times get free press. Hugh: I have a copy of your book on this. What is the title of that book? Shannon: Media Magic: How to Attract Limitless Radio, TV, Print Publicity. Hugh: That’s a pretty good book. It gives me some thoughts on things I had no clue about. How could people get Media Magic? Shannon: They can go to shannongronich.com or on Amazon. If you send me a receipt from Amazon, I give everybody an interview with Jay Abraham’s ghost writer who is also a contributor in the book. If you don’t know who Jay Abraham is, he gets paid six figures a day to go into corporations and deal with their marketing strategies. His ghost writer, who has also been in all areas of publicity, is sharing copyrighting secrets and language for prosperity, and I give that away for free for anybody who reads the book. Hugh: Jay Abraham is legendary. And a ghostwriter is someone who has to think within their brain and write for them. We will link to that underneath this video and in the podcast show notes. I will remind people to go to hughballou.com to find the different links for the different shows, and then the notes are there, too. Part of my problem in publicizing is people want to know who I am and what I do. Part of what I help people think through for themselves that I can’t do for myself is as a leader, we are people of influence. Defining ourselves is an important paradigm, is it? Shannon: That is actually the first step. Hugh, I think you’re really fortunate. The first step when I’m working with someone is to develop what I call an expert power bio. We have our bios and our resumes. But an expert power bio is what makes you stand out and sizzle and have the media pay attention. And Hugh, with you being in Forbes Magazine, your years of success, some of your clients, you have a lot of the key components to stand out as an expert. I know that when you are coming to town, any time I say that he has been featured in Forbes, that adds instant credibility. Some people that might be listening to this say, “I don’t have that success.” What is great about this expert power bio system is that you can actually… I have had 20-year-olds or people coming out of a job and creating a new business… There is a way to add sizzle to your bio or even use association with someone that you learned from or trained with to help you stand out. That is one of the first things people look at. Hugh, you are in a unique position because you are teaching leadership. People, especially with nonprofits or businesses, you are in an industry where I think at least with your press releases, the first thing is developing a tagline that sizzles. What is the benefit of leadership? We have to look at that end in mind. What is the story we are going to tell? There are all kinds of things with media. You can look at negative news and talk about politics. But there are three things I focus on with the media that everyone loves. They love human interest. You have been a musical conductor, Hugh. That story you tell. Maybe somewhere where you have overcome adversity. They also love community giveback. If you are involved in the community, and I know your listeners have nonprofits, that is easy for them. They have human interest and community giveback. And the third thing is education. Those are the three things that I focus on with individuals that I find it’s really easy when you have crafted a story to get the media to print. That is what they look for. Hugh: Wow. Do you have a checklist about that somewhere? Shannon: I do. My book is actually a workbook. You can write or scribble in it. I wanted people to get in the action. Anything I do, I think we should get into action. Kind of like you, Hugh. You do the same thing. Hugh: What I heard you say is we need to focus on results. When I did my first speaker one sheet and I sent it to this advertising company that specializes in one-sheets, I had a call with the chairman. He says, “This is all about you.” I went, Uh oh. I don’t like the tone of this. He said that it needs to be about them. Yes, I work on leadership, but that word gets people stuck in a rut, so I try to communicate what happens. They don’t buy leadership; they buy results. But it is through leadership that we make a difference. So how to present that. You are so right. People want to know what they are going to get out of this. Bob Circosta, a friend who sold six billion dollars on home TV, said, “What’s so good about that? We have to define the benefits of it.” Shannongronich.com or Amazon to get Media Magic. I need to pull that out and reread it. You are reminding me of things that I know but I am not using. Let’s go back to other tips. By the way, if you are in Florida or if you want to go to Florida in the winter, in January, that would be a good excuse to go to the Business Acceleration Summit. Businessaccelerationsummit.com is the website. I will be there with other thought leaders. It is a life-changing couple of days. It doesn’t take you a long time, but there is a lot of power packed into it. It’s where Shannon and I connect with people and share useful information. What are other tips?  How do we do a power bio? Shannon: I would love to offer that for free. If they go to shannongronich.com, I used to only give this to my clients, but it’s one of the most difficult things that people have to do: how to write about themselves. It’s a challenge to write about yourself. It’s a challenge. So I decided to give it away for free. I have a twelve-step program, which should really be a thirteen-step program because there is a thirteenth step. The thirteenth step that is not there, but I do share in a follow-up email, is a list of clients. One time, I had a woman that I was working with, and she was struggling with doubling her prices. She had a lot of clients. She was in this place where she was working herself overtime and needed to get to the next level. So we worked on her power bio, and when I started looking at her work, first off, she was amazing. She came from a job, and in that job, her exclusive account was Delta for three or four years. I asked her, “Can we list Delta as one of your clients?” Sure enough she could. Adding Delta as one of her accounts for her bio made it easier for her to double her prices with new clients. It was really great. Power bio is essential. I think it’s one of those things that people should really spend time on. The free press system I use is just a one-page tagline that sizzles, again talking about the results for the individuals. I will share a secret with you that you can use the next time you go shopping. Oftentimes, when people send me press releases, it’s an announcement. I just haven’t found that to work. The most successful press release that I had about an event, the tagline was, “85 Ways to Improve Your Health in Six Hours or Less.” We had 85 booths, and it was a six-hour event. That is how we came up with that tagline. Numbers are really essential. Those stand out above everyone else. When you go shopping next time, look at Oprah and Cosmo. They have spent billions of dollars in seeing what taglines will get people to buy magazines and read their articles. They are all short and sweet, and many times they have numbers. Take those and fill in what you can put in. It could be “Six Secrets to,” “Seven Steps to.” This doesn’t just apply to your press release. I found that if you are doing a workshop title or an email that you want to get opened, all of these principles can be universal in marketing. I had an event that I purchased a number of years ago. They had been doing meditation, and they had been at the event for a number of years. It was like a yoga meditation. They had a hard time getting people to come to the event. We changed the title to “How to Attain Inner Peace in Ten Minutes or Less,” and the classroom filled up. Hugh: That’s worth this whole call right there. We are guilty of making announcements. I am thinking this principal would be a good power bio for your bio page on your website. Where else would they use the power bio? Shannon: What I was just sharing with the tagline is for the press release. The power bio, I use it with my proposals. I use it anywhere that I want people to pay attention and I don’t want to be talking about myself. Does that make sense? Any time I am sending out a proposal or anything like that has really doubled my conversion. I know you can use it with grants. They want to know who your team is. If I am going to an event, if people have hired me to do event consulting, if it is a first-year event, oftentimes people question if they can pull this off. When you have someone on your team who has produced 400 events, really your whole team in your nonprofit should develop a power bio. Hugh: When you send out a press release, I assume there is something about me in the press release. Shannon: No. Hugh: Oh. Blow up that assumption. Shannon: There are many ways; there is not a right or wrong here. In the Associated Press, a lot of times people do put something about themselves. I have found that if you want free publicity, it cannot look like advertising. I may attach a bio as a separate thing, but when I send a press release, it is strictly about the story. How I position myself or you, Hugh, as an expert in the power bio is there is a certain place. I share this in the book, too. We quote you as an expert. You do the quote, and then you say, “Hugh Ballou, leadership expert.” Then we finish it. It’s a neat formula of how that works. For you, I would not say “founder of SynerVision.” I would do Forbes because Forbes is a big name. For me, I just say, “author, event producer,” really basic titles. The idea with this is you want the press to interview you. You want them to be telling the story about you. If you are marketing you, then they are like, “This person just wants free advertising.” Hugh: Wow. That has blown up an old paradigm I’ve had in my head, but it makes so much sense. So it’s okay to add another sheet as the bio. Shannon: I would keep them separate. I would not attach it to the press release. I would keep it as two separate attachments, or just a small thing in the body of the email. This can also be used to get speaking gigs. When you send in that information, you can send your power bio. You can use this material for lots of things. Hugh: That’s awesome. We are talking about the press release, which is a whole different format. You go over that in your book. You are also doing another biannual event soon. Shannon: It’s the Media Magic Sales and Marketing Intensive. We are actually working on your power bio, which you leave there with, as well as your press release. I have brought in some experts. I have a woman who is a regular contributor for the Huffington Post and Yahoo News. I have someone else who has been on The Today Show. I bring in other experts. This is an intensive where we work on your media kit. We have a website expert who comes in and helps you figure out how to convert through that. Hugh: I know that website expert. He is very good. He does both marketing and websites. The websites aren’t just a pretty picture, but they actually convert. That’s the whole message I am getting here. We tend to send out messages that don’t convert. We want to know how many people are going to come and buy our products or join our charity or come to our events. I’m thinking there are a lot of things I see churches and charities do wrong. They send an announcement. There is no compelling reason to want to go. They don’t get it because they know the reason, but they didn’t share it with anybody. It reminds me of the TED Talk with Simon Sinek, “Begin with why.” You are coming from that perspective of, “Here is what you are going to get.” You hit them in the face and interrupt their thinking because people are expecting the boring announcement. Instead, they get, “Hmm, pay attention.” The power bio could be a separate piece. In your press release, could you link to that? They could choose to find out more that way. That About Me page is usually done poorly as an afterthought when really that is the lead piece. This is establishing your position of influence in my world. There is also a segue with social media. I see lots of bad things in the form of an announcement, and people are selling you before you even know who they are. I’m thinking this whole concept could be a power concept for social media. You want to address that separately? Shannon: I think that with everything we do, we want to be mindful of the language we are using. Another expert we are bringing to the upcoming intensive, he is a sales expert in time shares and hotels, and he has a heart of gold. He has been able to crack the code based upon different personalities. One of the things is: Out of the 17 different personalities, there are the top two dividers of head and heart. In marketing, I love that he uses the Aflac example, how Aflac brings in the heart and saves time and money, which is the head. When we look at marketing, if you can at least hit those two touch points, then you can hit more of the masses. For me, I speak about community and human interest, which are heart stuff. I may lose people because I won’t talk about how to save money and how to increase revenue and more of the head things. You really need to combine the two in any of the marketing we are doing. Hugh: Absolutely. I am thinking of the Aflac duck. You got that thing that comes to your mind, and it’s really top-of-mind marketing. People really think about it. We also don’t spend time explaining who you are and building relationships with people. Then we really hammer them with promoting our event. Why should they do that? We don’t have a relationship with people. There is a different conversation around that. We are coming close to our time here. This is extremely valuable information, and I want to make sure we don’t send people down a foxhole. Let’s give them some clear directions. The Media Magic one-day intensive, where can they find more information about that? Shannon: They can find that at shannongronich.com under Events. I want to make sure I say one more thing before we go. Everything can be found on shannongronich.com or even businessaccelerationsummit.com. The real magic formula that I think of is yes, the language and what we say, but it really is the relationships and talking to people. How I have been able to get millions of dollars in free press is talking to the media. I don’t just send it out and expect them to pick it up. It involves emails and phone calls and expecting them to say no but having the vision of following it up. With my biggest success, I was rejected over ten times. No, we didn’t get it. No, we didn’t read it. No, it’s not a fit. I tweaked it a little bit, and at the very end, I don’t usually give up until the magazine goes to print and I know it’s done. I know that each time I just have to keep working at it and building that relationship with them. The editor ended up calling me and saying that they had a remnant space, and they gave me an entire page in the magazine. It’s really key to pick up the phone and not say too much. Use that tagline that sizzles. Say that you have a story that you think they would be interested in. You have a piece that might be great for their readers. You are coming to them first. Make it about their readers. Have them ask questions. If you fire-hose them, that is too much. That is why the tagline that sizzles, maybe a couple of stats about the challenge or problem you are solving, and get them engaged in asking questions. Hugh: Awesome. You may not remember, but I owned a camera store in St. Petersburg, Florida. I built out a very substantial footprint in providing film and chemistry to photo labs in industry: police departments, newspapers, the whole city of St. Pete, etc. I built that by relationship, exactly what you talked about. I got to know people. I visited them. I had something novel to talk about. They would say, “Oh, by the way, do you sell this? We need some of that.” So it’s really about connecting with people. You have helped us set a new paradigm. I am bad as a businessperson in understanding that. I teach people to think that way, but this is a good reminder for me. In my charity and the charities that I work with, we think that because we have a worthy cause, people should print it. When really, they don’t have a lack of people sending them stuff. We want to stand out from the crowd and create a compelling reason. People can find out about all of this at shannongronich.com. It’s not really a commercial. You are giving away free stuff and information on how to get free publicity. I am doing an event the next time you are doing your media intensive in Florida, and that’s a good reason to go to Florida this time of year. The Business Acceleration Summit, there are many good reasons to check out that information. Like I do, you give away a lot of free stuff. Shannon: I want to help so many people. Hugh: You do. This is a helpful interview. I am grateful to have you as a colleague and friend and that we collaborate on a lot of events together. As we come to a wrap here, I want you to think about a tip that you would like to leave people with. How do you get the world to pay attention to the important things you are doing? What is a parting thought that you have for people? Shannon: It is that every single one of us has a story. I have found that every business and individual has at least 50 stories that someone wants to hear and know about that is either inspiring, educational, or uplifting. There is not a lack of inspiration in each cause or individual. It takes time and energy and effort. It’s not much. You can do this in a short period of time of sharing that with the world and standing up and letting people know. Even adversity can be turned into a way of moving people to take action. Hugh: Great advice. Shannon, thank you for sharing your wisdom with people today, especially with me.   Get the free Power Bio Template at http://shannongronich.com

“The Lion coming to get you.” That is how Robert Koagedal describes imbalance and stress in our lives. Koagedal is board certified to practice Chinese Medicine: acupuncture, botanical medicine, and nutrition, and holds a Master of Science degree in Traditional Chinese Medicine. He has built a very successful practice in Scottsdale, Arizona. Through acupuncture and Chinese Medicine, Koagedal helps people fight a range of problems from back pain and arthritis, to infertility and weight control. He tries to get his patients to focus on finding the “off switch”; being more mindful, free, open, and in balance. In treating patients for stress and anxiety, as well as a range of other associated ailments, Koagedal focuses on the central imbalance. He teaches people to self-reflect and ask themselves if they are fulfilling their sense of connection and purpose. “Learn to relax, tap into that deep part of your being that allows you to feel connected,” he says. “We are not put on this planet to be in a state of anxiety overwhelmed by the world.” Nutrition is also a big part of solving medical problems for patients. Gluten, sugar, and soy are all potentially dangerous to the body in his view. For each person, the prescription to better health is different. But Koagedal believes the basic principles of Chinese Medicine and learning to find balance can benefit all of us. More balance, less stress. When asked what personally inspired him, Koagedal replies, “I am inspired by creative thinkers that are looking at solving some of the larger issues. We have to think bigger and think larger. Live with a vision of love and how we all come together for a beautiful world. Podcast Transcript Carey Pena: Hey everyone, I'm Carey Pena. A detailed news study by researchers at Stanford and Harvard, concludes that work stress can and does shorten lives. And today we're talking about how to get healthier, both mentally and physically. Our guest has spent his entire career focusing on helping people minimize stress and optimize health. Robert Koagedal is the owner of AcuHealth. Robert, thanks for being here. Robert Koagedal: Thank you so much Carey. Carey Pena: You deal with trying to help people minimize stress and one of your areas of focus is helping women overcome infertility issues. So, let's start there. Why do you think so many women are experiencing problems having children? Robert Koagedal: Well, that in and of itself is going to take us beyond our 20 minutes but if I'm going to give you the nutshell. And especially as it relates to stress, and maybe what distinguishes what I do relative to maybe what other healthcare providers are doing is, I see it as a pivotal feature of function, and not only just your mental health, but also your biological health. That is, the full expression of balancing your hormones, blood pressure, and all of the various things that we measure, I think are dramatically altered and affected adversely in response to perceived threat. That is to being under what I call, “the lion coming to get you”. Carey Pena: So let's talk a little bit about what advice you can offer to people … Specifically right now, talking about managing stress. And I think that's interesting figuring out the off switch. What is the type of advice you give to people? Robert Koagedal: Sure. Well obviously, the individual treatments are going to be to each person and their kind of level of interest. And maybe pointed towards ways that each person in their own life as I hear their story and how they can then, maybe, develop some of these practical tools, I guess. Certainly, the term that's as popular as yoga these days is mindfulness, right? And mindfulness as a historical practice is pointing us towards that there are parts of our consciousness that maybe we don't always access. And we could say those are parts of our awareness that are more open, more free, non-judgmental. And being able to tap into that part of our awareness, our consciousness, gives us access to a sort of relaxation that you can have as you go through your day. And so, mindfulness training, and there's lots of different avenues for that, is a part of what I invite my patients in to when they're receiving acupuncture such that that can be with headphones that I do guided mediations. Or having them listen to different things, certainly in their day-to-day lives where they'll go through that. And I think that we're beginning to see that this is a key role and medically as you related to fertility, I explain to people that there is this feedback loops in the brain, what's call your hypothalamic pituitary or adrenal axis. That's this communication network that is really perceiving your moment-to-moment experience. And if it's threatened, your body resources go towards fight or flight response which directs away from our secondary evolutionary strategy, which is for reproduction and digestion. First thing is to survive, right? And indeed, if we are under the duress of a perceived threat, our body's adaptive strategies move the energy resources to the hormones for adrenaline, for cortisol elevation, and these dramatically alter the way that then, all of our other hormones are functioning. So, the shift is to begin to see that you're already free. The shift is to begin to see that, built into your nervous system, are all the necessary requirements for you to experience this relaxation. And sometimes it just takes some pointing it out. And when people get a little taste of it, they can build on it and grow with it. Adapt it into their lives. And I think that's a key thing for what I try to do, right? Invite people into that. And I think medically that's going to show up in the future, if not already, with your Harvard and fancy Stanford study. Carey Pena: I come with the fancy studies. Robert Koagedal: Yeah, exactly. So those are going to point us towards some simple things. Getting back to some simplicity. There's no rocket science in this, right? And I think it's mostly because our culture doesn't train us in this. It doesn't offer these. You don't learn this in business school. You don't learn this in college. You don't get in your archway education, you know?  Well actually you are getting it at some schools these days. So, it's not necessarily a part of our cultural heritage to work to learn these skills. And it's a learned skill that with some refinement, some practice, I think you can begin to use in your day-to-day life. Carey Pena: Do you find a lot of resistance at first when people come in? Not everyone is used to acupuncture and Chinese Medicine. And certainly people must walk in your doors, overwhelmed with stress, anxiety. How do you even begin to unravel that in your patients? Robert Koagedal: Well, certainly as it relates to fertility then, then you have the double whammy of that on top of them already probably being working at that point and having work stress on top of it. So, all the more reason that we have to find some type of a place for people to become centered and find that. And so, it's just … I don't know, it's something you develop, and you learn to see where people are at and if they're open to it, and if it feels like it's something you want to explore, then yeah. I take them on a little journey. Carey Pena: What does it feel like for you when you see someone open up and relax and … Robert Koagedal: It's fantastic, yeah. Absolutely. And, a lot of it is, you could call this also what I call ‘states of consciousness and healing'. And it's my opinion, and if I read your study, I'm going to gather that it points towards that, under states of relaxation the body's natural homeostatic processes, just simply function better. And so, what you see are all the parameters of their “symptoms”, whether its digestive complaints or they have headaches or they're neck pain. All of those things to a certain degree start to, shall we say, self-resolve. Now, I'm not saying mindfulness is the only strategy for this but, it might the underlying thing that we need to begin from. Robert Koagedal: Without which, acupuncture in itself might not be enough. Medication in itself, might not be enough. Telling them to ‘eat organically' might not be enough. And until we evolve a view of who we are as human beings that wants to enrich us into understanding that our nervous system isn't … We're not put on this planet to be in a state of anxiety, overwhelmed by the world. Carey Pena: Yeah. I think what you're saying is super interesting and Shannon, our Producer, do you have a mike over there? You're not on the mike. But he went through a really stressful time, lost a lot of weight. And really, does this concept kind of speak to you, the mindfulness Shannon? Kinda because you had to really get into the moment to figure out your life because a little bit was spinning out of control. Shannon: Yeah. Whenever … I saw … It really affected me when I saw things oozing from my ears and I was feeling as though maybe I was not treating myself the way I deserved, and I was in turn, treating everyone else the way I felt. That's kind of how I felt. Carey Pena: And so much anxiety. Shannon: Yeah. I had a lot of like, anxieties and I still kind of suffer from it, but it's a lot better now that I've actually given thought to being more mindful to where I want to be in the future. Carey Pena: And that's really a lot of what you're talking about Robert, right? I mean, I was interested in reading a little bit more about your background. You have a Masters degree in Chinese Medicine. You also treat complex medical complaints that a lot of times people are having troubles solving through traditional medicine. So, severe back pain, insomnia, depression. How does Chinese Medicine help in these particular cases? Robert Koagedal: Well, Chinese Medicine is a collection of practices and includes not just acupuncture. That certainly is one of the main tools and again, in our culture, that's how I got defined when people were trying to figure out what the hell does he do? Or, you know. So we'll call him an acupuncturist. Carey Pena: He sticks needles in people. Robert Koagedal: Yeah. So there we go. But the scope of what's called, The Five Branches of Chinese Medicine involve, certainly, acupuncture and what's called moxibustion, which is a whole other thing. The application of nutrition as the foundation for establishing health. Certainly, all of what I just talked about. The right mindfulness, right thinking. The strategies of Tai Chi and Chi Gong. Chi Gong means breath work. Massage or what's called acupressure. And certainly, botanical medicine application of herbs. So that's what I do. Those are my tools. That's the strategies that I employ anytime someone comes in. We're trying to utilize all of those in the process of identifying where's their central imbalance? Carey Pena: Do you try to … For instance, with people who come into you who are suffering from … I'd imagine though, a lot of those things are probably interrelated, insomnia and depression- Robert Koagedal: Absolutely. Carey Pena: Those things go hand-in-hand. Do you try to help people wean themselves off of medication? Robert Koagedal: Certainly, there are people who come in with that objective. That is they're … They're coming to me because they are no longer getting the benefit from whatever it was they initially started using them for. And yeah that can include a host of medications from the … Certainly, the antidepressants all the way through sleep medications. I would also just advise your listeners too, that this is always at least with that respect and conjunction with them, consulting with their physician and kind of managing that. Because it's not an easy thing, and sometimes involves quite a bit of both self-reflection for the patient and if they're ready to move through those stages of understanding the deeper aspects of their mind. And understanding if they're fulfilling their sense of connection and purpose in this world. And if they're willing to move through those processes, then yeah, indeed we can help them on that journey. Carey Pena: I really love that. I think that's an important question for people to ask themselves. Are you fulfilling your sense of connection and purpose? Robert Koagedal: Yeah. Carey Pena: If you feel disconnected, that can so easily lead you down the road of depression. Robert Koagedal: Absolutely. Well, the highest practice, and here, I guess, I'll set this out to the community, the highest practice of Chinese Medicine and the deep idea is that, it's what's called ‘Nourishing Destiny', and that references that the Chinese physician or the Master physician is really the tools that are meant to help the person open up to and connect with that deepest part of their being. That allows them to fulfill what they feel connected to at the deepest level. Carey Pena: And so, we live in somewhat of a frenetic and disconnected society. How do you employ those practices for yourself? I mean, how do you maintain a happy, and practice what you preach? Robert Koagedal: It's a great question because I swim in the same sea, right? So, I have kids, and I run a business and all of those things come with their own challenges. I'd like to think that I certainly try to practice what I preach. But I hopefully do it humbly and without any judgment. And those are things that yeah, I'm going to … Like right now I'm in the middle of day four of a 10-day sugar cleanse. So, I had two days' worth of a big, fat headache because I gave up caffeine and alcohol and- Carey Pena: No wine? Robert Koagedal: Eliminating sugar. Yeah exactly. And so, I really actually … You could say, I test some of the things out on myself that I'm going to suggest to my patients. And, this has been a good one actually, I like it. Carey Pena: So, what brought you to this particular cleanse? Robert Koagedal: Oh. well, I've explored a lot of different cleanses and I think, as I've tried to understand the detoxification processes in the body and maybe where they can be hampered. A lot of people come in with limited gut function, gut health, and bowel function. And I've tried to look for things that naturally help support the detoxification processes. I think it's generally accepted that we're exposed to anywhere from 50 – 80,000 new chemicals in the environment. They're a part of things that we just swim in. And our body might need a little help on occasion. If it's working properly, I think we get rid of most stuff. But if not, you give it a little boost now and again. Carey Pena: So, you're going to be on this for 10 days. Robert Koagedal: 10 days. Carey Pena: And that means what? No sugar? Robert Koagedal: No sugar, yup. So it's basically, 70% vegetables, 30% protein. And eliminating sugar. Carey Pena: So, tell me what you feel about gluten. Robert Koagedal: Glutens another complex topic, I'm not sure how much time we've got to work with on that one. But certainly, for my patients for whom, if they're suffering with an underperforming thyroid, I think there's enough clinical information that points that it can be, for some people, suppressive of the thyroid's optimal functioning. And so, as an experiment, both for reducing inflammation and probably because it's not necessarily optimal food. That is as we study and understand the seeds, which is what grains are, the seeds of plants. Those historically have been processed by our ancestors in ways in which they're not processed today. And that's again, why I say it's a little more complicated on how they extrude the grains. They leave in the bad parts as opposed to, what's called soaking, sour leavening, sprouting. Those are methods of rendering the seed less volatile. And we don't do that anymore. Robert Koagedal: So, you get all of kind of the bad stuff. And not as much of the good stuff and that's where I think we're running into that. And then you're talking about a culture that has, for most kids since birth, they've been on antibiotics. They have gut dysfunction and you add on a potential plant food that can disrupt their gut. Then you have a recipe for all of the things we're seeing as far as why people are having trouble with it. Carey Pena: And what do you think about eliminating gluten to help with weight-loss and management? Robert Koagedal: Yeah. I think, all of that I think as we explore … And again, this is where each person out there is going to have to answer for themselves. What does our physiology tell us about what we're designed for, right? And certainly for me it points to us being omnivorous and our ancestors show up as requiring those foods and part of our evolutionary heritage is also consuming certain … certainly animal foods, as well as plant foods. And that if you want to minimize the refined carbohydrates, this would probably be a big winner for anyone who wants to lose weight, right? And I don't think that's … That's kind of a no brainer. I mean, if you study any of the science out there, that is refined carbohydrates, sugars, right? And certainly, any kind of the processed or rancid vegetable oils. I think those alone would do you good. Carey Pena: Tell me your thought about soy. Robert Koagedal: Soy is another interesting product in which a lot of … The last couple of years we've been told that it's a health food. And I think it's showing up that if you look at historical Asian cultures, they used it primarily as a way for fixing nitrogen into the soil. And when they did eat it, they ate it in its fermented form, which is soy sauce and miso soup. And those are fermentation processes, render a lot of plant foods less volatile and less harmful. And so I think, soy as it's been promoted by industry and primarily large agra business as a health food is a crock. And is primarily a source of … I have patients who bring their eight-year old daughters in who are already in early menarche and it's because it's a phytoestrogen. Carey Pena: At eight years old? Robert Koagedal: Yeah. So, they're already starting prepubescent puberty. Carey Pena: Wow. Robert Koagedal: And so, soy formula and all of the various touted benefits of soy, I think, are really quite dangerous actually. Carey Pena: What about dairy? Robert Koagedal: Well, you're getting to all the …  Carey's really giving me all the good one's here. Now again, that's for another thing that I will go through with each patient. I mean really, I'll sit down. If they want to know these things, I'm going to give them my perspective on it. And I think we're at a point where dairy now, has itself become something that is not what it used to be. And that is, animals that are tortured and put into cages and then, stripped of their outdoor living and grass, which is their natural dietary requirement, and feed soy and corn. And then, we're expected to drink that milk, and then we have to heat it and pasteurize it, and then, homogenize it and pull the fat out. And then, drink it. I'm going to say, that's not milk. That's a processed food. And so, this just gets into the controversies regarding, for example, like raw milk and those types of things. And certainly I'm an advocate for getting back to a sustainable view on farming that connects farmer to consumer to the animals in a way that respects their life and really hooks us up. There's a movie called “Fresh” for anyone out there who wants to take a look. I think this is a great film that points us towards a new vision of how to grow our food. Carey Pena: You know, I was curious to get your thoughts on the … I don't know if you heard about the Nobel Peace Prize, that on October 5th, the Chinese pharmacologist, Tu Youyou, she was awarded the 2015 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for her discovery of a new way to battle malaria. So this is from the New York Times, they talk about that this has renewed the debate on Chinese Medicine. Just out of curiosity, why do you think there is still such debate about Chinese Medicine and its veracity? Robert Koagedal: I'm not sure, I didn't understand … What was the Nobel Prize for? Carey Pena: Well, she discovered a new way to battle malaria. Robert Koagedal: Okay. Carey Pena: And so, because her background is rooted in Chinese Medicine it has sort of again opened up this debate about Chinese Medicine, and there's always been this long running battle between new medicine and old medicine, I guess. And I just wonder, why do you think it's still controversial? Robert Koagedal: Well obviously, I swim … I live in a little isolated world so people come to me regularly and I don't see it as a controversy. In fact, Chinese Medicine is the most sophisticated model of the relationship between mind and body that the human beings have come up with so far. And as such, being a model of understanding how both our mind, our emotions, and our life style effect our health, I consider it to be a foundational medicine for the world and a great healing tradition. Having said that, it doesn't have all the answers. And therefore, we're looking for a view that is integrative. That applies the principles of certainly science and all of the great insights that have come through allopathic medicine and they do neither, in any way, conflict with each other. But they can complement each other in a way that, I think, satisfies our view of a healthcare that's really whole and wholistic. And appreciates all of the dimensions of being human. Carey Pena: I know you deal with a lot of different patients who come to you for a lot of different reasons. But if you had the ability to give sort of give one premier piece of advice, health advice to people, what would it be? Robert Koagedal: Learn to relax. Yeah. Learn to tap into that deep part of your being that allows you to feel connected in a way, if it's certainly to your family or to your community, or literally to the cosmos as a whole. I think learning to find … I give this to people. Recently I came up with this. I liken the nervous system to the digestive system. If the digestive system is full, and you're stuffed after Thanksgiving meal, and someone puts your favorite meal in front of you, you're not going to enjoy it, right? The nervous system acts similarly. We are so bombarded with information and that's why I'm glad we didn't go necessarily into every detail that you have to memorize out there because there's already enough information out there. But take this principle that our nervous systems act similarly. When they're overwhelmed with information, they themselves … it's hard to enjoy the next moment because our nervous system is full. So, learning those strategies of how to come back to a simple awareness of your body, a simple awareness of being in the present moment. Connecting in a way that allows you to not necessarily be running off into the next one or living from the past. Those tools and strategies I think, will immensely improve your overall wellbeing and help you make choices for your life and for your health that will dramatically improve them. Carey Pena: What is it that personally inspires you? Robert Koagedal: Personally, I'm inspired by creative thinkers that are looking at solving some of the larger issues. And again, when we define it myself, as an acupuncturist, I think it's inaccurate in that, if we're swimming in a world that's polluted. Just my sticking needles in people is not going to solve a lot of their problems. So, we have to think bigger and think larger and I've recently come across the creator of “Five Hour Energy”, which I don't even know … It's probably not a great health drink by any means. But, he came into a flow of cash that was on the order of $4 billion. And I watched a video with what he's doing to address some of our future concerns and not just for me, but for my kids and kid's kids. That was just so inspiring. Robert Koagedal: So, creative thinking in which people are looking outside of the box. Not stuck in dogma, and not necessarily behaving in ways out of fear. But living with a vision for love and really for a vision for how we can all come together to really create a beautiful world. Carey Pena: Yeah. When you are creative it just like, unleashes so many possibilities and it's so exciting. Robert Koagedal: And you've got $4 billion dollars … Carey Pena: Yeah, $4 billion dollars. Robert Koagedal: I'm telling you. And you've got … Carey Pena: I can be super creative with $4 billion. Robert Koagedal: Absolutely. Well, I'll send you the video because it was just inspiring. So, things like that get me fired up. Carey Pena: Robert, thank you. Robert Koagedal: Thank you. Carey Pena: I think we could talk to you for about another 40 minutes. There's so much … Shannon's sitting over there. I can see your brain is working. We love to talk health and fitness. People can find you on the web at acuhealthaz.com. And again, thank you so much for being here. And thanks everyone for listening. The post Alternative Medicine Offers Therapies To Help Reduce Stress appeared first on Inspired Media 360 TV - Inform | Inspire | Engage.