Fire Code Tech

How do you train and retain staff in the current job market? Erin Easton gives insight to workforce trends and shares the benefits of the Fire Alarm the Apprenticeship program at Cape Fear Community College. As a panel discussion Paul Inferrera and Erin share their knowledge about business development.    More information about the program.  https://cfcc.edu/job-training/construction-careers/fire-alarm-systems-training/

Episode 74 is a discussion about fire protection engineering. Sr. VP and Director of Business Development at Harrington Group Tom Gardener shares his incredible experience through a variety of occupancies, projects, and life experiences.

Episode 73 explores research, historical fires, and engineering. Join in an enlightening discussion with Casey Grant, a seasoned professional in fire protection. Grant shares invaluable insights drawn from his storied career  with history, technology, and personal experience.

Jeyra is back on the podcast! If your interested in a discussion between two fire and life safety professionals about community involvement, professional development, and project updates than you are in the right place.

Ryan Waterman is a sprinkler designer, business owner, and innovator in fire safety. Tune in to hear about Ryan's business and career which all centers around fire sprinkler systems.  https://designerhub.com/

How do fire and life safety professionals tackle challenges like sustainability, energy storage systems, and technology becoming obsolete? These topics and more are discussed in episode 70 of Fire Code Tech. Robert Solomon P.E. shares tremendous insight from his 30+ years at NFPA and 40 years in fire protection.   00:07.11 firecodetech Well Robert thank you for coming on the fire code tech podcast we're happy to have you today. 00:13.10 robert solomon Well thank you very much for having me I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you. 00:18.15 firecodetech Awesome! So how I usually get these things started to give the listeners some context and also for my own listening pleasure is usually asking about how you found fire and life safety How you found the field. 00:32.93 robert solomon So where I grew up. Um I grew up in a rural area in Western Pennsylvania and I think I was like maybe like a lot of little kids right? The fire truckcks you know pure actually going by. Would you know there's some level of excitement or you'd go to the. Annual ah fire department carnival in the local towns or whatever that were run by the fire departments and I I kind of got an interest I think from that you know childhood ah piece or kind of experience. When I was 15 I actually learned about the small town that I lived near they actually had a junior volunteer fire department program and I found out about that and um I joined that literally when I was fifteen years old so at 15 right? You can you can like wash equipment and fire trucks. You know you're not going to go to fires or car accidents or anything but I immediately kind of liked the firefighting aspect. A while later maybe a year later than two of the members who were getting their far science degrees at a community college. They came to the muddy night meeting and they have this photocoppied piece of paper about this fire protection engineering program at University Of Maryland I thought like. 01:54.96 robert solomon Sounds interesting. What what exactly does this mean and what is it so I made a trip to University Of Maryland ah that year I was in tenth grade then um I met Dr Brian Wright who is one of the more famous folks from Oklahoma. And he talked about the program and in I think in tenth grade he in tenth grade I think I was 99% sure I wanted to figure out how I could go to University Of Maryland to to go through that program. So um I was just blessed to kind of. Have all these things that kind of came together and that were kind of connected. Um I liked the farfighting part but I always had in the back my mind I wanted to be an engineer. My father was an engineer and ah, that's kind of how how it all started for me when I was when I was fifteen years old so and been been doing it ever since which is a long time for by age. So yeah. 02:48.33 firecodetech That's awesome. That's interesting to hear that seems like a common thread of involvement with the fire service and then ah, a proclivity for math and science or a family member that is related to engineering So that's good to hear. Well. 03:00.00 robert solomon Um, yeah, and for sure. 03:04.26 firecodetech Ah, so for a bit more of context. Um, would you mind explaining a couple more of the roles that you've held in during your career. 03:13.75 robert solomon Sure so the first kind of job I had in the fire protection engineering world. It was a summer intern job with the department of veterans affairs. It was the veterans administration back then but I had a summer internship in Washington Dc at the v a central office. And of course the e a does hospitals and nursing homes. So I learned a lot about the nfk life safety code and the fire safety evaluation system um is a part of that summer job working with the really you know smart fpes that were there. The supervisor that headed up that group bill Brooks. Um, one of the other things he did for me that summer is he arranged for me to go visit with fire protection engineers and other federal agencies Army Corps of Engineers Naval Sea systems command navfac all these other federal agencies department of transportation. And I got a chance to see what they did in this Fpe Role so I really didn't realize at the time like how much how much I was to absorb from kind of having that opportunity to spend a couple hours with them so that was kind of my first intern job and. 04:32.84 robert solomon There go the allergies. Ah, and then that was you know between junior and senior years and then I had kind of gravitated towards this idea of working for naval facilities engineering command nav fact that was my first job then after graduation in 1982 I was at the southern division down in Charleston South Carolina and I think what appealed to me about that is is when you work on military projects and and you sounds like you're familiar with this the the military builds everything and sometimes you only build 1 or 2 of those things ever in the history of. Of of building construction. So I had ah four great years working at at navfa down in ah Charleston again. Um the supervisor of that was a gentleman named Dennis Davis I worked with other ah great fpes Les Engels Jim Crawford and and and these were people that really helped morph me and guide me and it's like I always said to people in college you get your degree and then you get your education when you get your first real job so they really taught me kind of that connection between the theory and what maybe you learned in school and then how that kind of applies to. Real world building design and construction. so so I said I had four four great years at navfac and I kind of learned that I learned how to travel I'd never been an airplane till I was 21 years old then all of a sudden I'm on an airplane every other week going to. 06:02.51 robert solomon You know somewhere on a project in Florida or Texas or New Mexico um but again just a fascinating job. You know I really liked everything about that. Definitely yeah yeah, yeah. 06:14.49 firecodetech And that's awesome. Yeah I love that complexity piece of the the dod and you know that's it's very alluring for multiple disciplines of engineer because of just the type of systems and the type of work I think for engineers I. 06:21.10 robert solomon The. 06:33.22 firecodetech Think it takes a different breed of architect when you get into a lot of military work. But for engineers it seems if you like the detail and you like the complexity that it's very compelling So that's cool to hear about that origin story. So. 06:44.81 robert solomon Right? And yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. Yeah, so says I had I had that period that time down at navfac and then in ah, 1986 I knew there were some openings at Npa and I think I'd mentioned right when I was in the was in the fire department back in Pennsylvania when I was 15 or 16 they had they this set of these books and I didn't know what they were was this nfpa thing and um I remember looking at them when I'm 16 like what what on earth are these things you know and. What is this nfpa and and one of the things I didn't mention is I got a student membership in nfpa when I was 17 so that you learn about it. You know going through the program at University Of Maryland and it was always in the back of my mind that sounds like a pretty interesting place to maybe work. So. And 86 I knew there were some ah openings up there and I you know back then you had to write a letter and I wrote the letter. It's like here's my resume and they actually contacted me to come up for an interview I thought like oh oh gosh you know it was like ah okay, what I'm Boston don't know anything about Boston. It's this big city I'm not used to big cities. Came up interview went well I was offered a position and so I went to I left of naffac and went to work at Nfpa back in July of 87 and at the time my goal was like I want to work here for four or five years to learn about how these codes are developed and made. 08:11.87 robert solomon And I wanted to go I figured I I go do something else I go work for a consultant or maybe go back to some federal agency but the the opportunities that I got at nfpa were were nonstop. Um, you know it's like anything sometimes it falls in your lap. Sometimes you have to go looking for it sometimes sometimes you have to kind of create the opportunity and thirty forty years later it's like oh I've had a good run here. It's time for me to go to to something else. So my my 5 year plan all of a sudden morphed into a a 34 year plan and. Like I said it was a it. It still is. It's ah it's a privilege to work at Nfpa. It is a it's a great organization. Um I I never I never had I was never bored there. There was always something new around the corner and. Things I worked on whether you know I think what I enjoyed the most obviously is working directly with the technical committees but I was involved in some of the you know big fire investigation programs and report writing um was always usually involved on you know some. National international catastrophe right? I was managing the group um that usually would have involvement with that whether it was the far code or the building code or the life safety code aspect but it it was just it was just like it. 09:38.73 robert solomon It it. It was just an unbelievable experience the whole time I was there I was working you know some of the people your age I don't know if you know names like Chet Shermer or the actual Rolf Jensen um you know these are the people that really I think really kind of put our profession on the map put fire protection engineering on the Map. And I would be sitting in meetings with these guys and they'd be asking me my opinion I'm like you know I don't I guess the word would be almost like Starstruck initially, it's like you're asking me what I think and um so it it was just it was just like it was. It. It was just an unbelievable experience the the whole time I was there. But I said you know whether it was the the new committee projects. Um the fire investigation work. The research work. Um, you know, ah it was all of those things. Just really. Ah, it gave me opportunities I never thought in 1000000 years I would have so like it was you know to to work somewhere for 34 Years that's pretty unusual now. But I think you know I'm in the generation that that was maybe a little bit more common than it is today. So my nfpa time was was just It was awesome is the only way I could describe it. 10:53.25 firecodetech That's incredible that sounds so cool to be in that era of just some of the imminent forces now in the industry just you know come into fruition. That's really cool to hear about and lots of good nuggets in there that I. 11:00.33 robert solomon Um. 11:01.88 robert solomon Move. 11:11.16 firecodetech Im sure we could spend ah a whole conversation on but 1 that strikes me as one I wanted to ask you about is that fire investigations piece I know that as fire and life safety professionals. You know, a lot of what we do is based on. Um. 11:13.53 robert solomon Ah, answer sure. 11:29.77 firecodetech Retroactively looking at how things went wrong and trying to correct those in the code cycles. But how does that experience at Nfba kind of color your context for how you look at design. Um, I know that's kind of a ah broad question. But um, I'd like to hear your answer on that. 11:51.42 robert solomon Yeah, so so I think I think I think there's 2 things that influence the way I look at application of codes to building design and one is you know I was only the volunteer fire service for 7 years you know in between Pennsylvania and what I did not in Prince George's County Maryland so you know? Yeah I kind of know what a fire feels like um that was part of it and then when you're at some of these fire investigation scenes you know like I said I was at Dupont Plaza where 97 people died and you're you're walking through these areas where you know where the bodies were a couple of days prior. Um, or orridium plaza where we've got the 3 firefighter fatalities and it's just like you know how you know how how on earth do we do? We get to these places. So I think that those things kind of sear some you know memories or the way I'm going to approach things that you know in. And again in either 1 of those fires right? The the role of the Nfk investigation is to is not necessarily It's not necessarily focused on cause and origin ah someone else is going to determine that the nfk report is okay, regardless of how it started what what is it that allowed this fire event. To to get to the point it did it and that's where the code piece comes in so I think between my experience you even though it was short lived in the volunteer fire service and then on the fire investigations to see the actual impacts. It's like you know, look there there there. There are no shortcuts in this business right. 13:25.97 robert solomon Oftentimes remember we do have these things or we do have these types of fires there. There is a shortcut or in other cases. It's simply the ongoing inspection testing and maintenance um is not is not followed through right? So it kind of falls on the building owner. 13:44.23 robert solomon So The codes can make that foolproof to an extent but right we still have that the human element that can you know that that kind of comes into play and you know I think especially in the assembly occupancies right? That's that that's that tough area because you do have to rely on. Folks like crowd managers and even like some of the safety or usher staff to help you with that because no matter what you put in the code people are going to figure out a way to defeat it. We. We just had 1 came in on the weekend about about. About the height height height of a guardrail and design of a guardrail at an assembly facility and you know the inspector said when somebody could climb on that and climbing that and it's like of course they can right? They can you know people people can always figure out how to how to climb over those things right? so. That that's kind of where that that human element comes in and I think that's the that's other piece I try to look at like you know the office building versus residential versus the assembly and I I I Keep those fairly compartmented I think in terms of how I'm going to look at. How to apply the life safety code or the ibc to those to those occupancies and to you know to make sure we we have. We have good explanations when somebody is questioning why they have to do it or how they have to do it so that you know that? ah all that stuff sits in the back here somewhere at it. 15:12.22 robert solomon You know I can I can pull it out when I need it. So. 15:15.38 firecodetech Yeah I think that is the difficult part and the mark of you know, somebody who can speak with confidence about a lot of fire and life safety is that nuance and the explaining of the justification. Um, because you know like you're saying. 15:22.76 robert solomon Be. I. 15:32.84 firecodetech Ah, you're you're going to get pushback in your career from ah ah, code official or so or somebody and you need to understand that direction or why that piece of code is there and what is a reasonable bound for the kind of life safety that we're Providing. Ah, in the context of prescriptive code. So you you have to have that understanding or else you're going to get thrown for a loop. It's guaranteed. Um. 15:52.94 robert solomon Yeah. 15:59.29 robert solomon Yeah, yeah for sure for sure and I was just say that when what I left out ofpa you know where I am now at Sls Consulting you know that that's that's part of that's part of my role there right? You know we we get we get a situation and. Maybe we're trying to. We're doing a performance-based design or're looking at a potential code equivalency or or we got somebody questioning. You know what? whys have to be done that way and probably not probably 9 times out of 10 I can I can tell them why because I guess it shows I'm old but like. I was probably there when the committee made the change or I worked with that committee long enough that I knew the history of of why that thing was in the code since 1930 or 1940 or whatever. So um, you know that's that's the other piece I think that I can bring is there still is some some importance to know. To know the historical perspective about about how the requirement got there is it based on a research report is it based on a fire is it based on some other you know tragic event or tragedy or or something else that went wrong. So those are you know that's that's one of the. Ah things I help my colleagues with now at a ls as well. So. 17:10.86 firecodetech Yeah, and that's a great question something I had planned to ask you later in the interview but this seems like a good interjection point is you know if and there might be no good answer to this other than you need just more experience and more time in the code cycles. But how. Does somebody who's trying to like absorb as much of this intent and subtext as Possible. Do you have any piece of advice for a young professional or somebody who's trying to gain. Ah, Expertise or proficiency and some piece of some code or standard you know are do you have any tips for somebody in that kind of situation. 17:57.60 robert solomon Yeah, yeah, yes I think I think that the two things I try to encourage people to do I I do I teach this one undergrad class on a wpi. It's only offered once a year and it's what I tell the students this. But maybe an old-timers expression but you know that the class is an introduction to fire protection engineering and it's it's that milew wide inch deep right? They get hit with everything from Ibc Nfk one a 1 sprinklers standpipes fire alarm systems and they they get ah that exposure. But one of the things I tell them one is you know is wherever they end up working is is to make sure that they they can identify a good mentor right? and I think that the mentorship is something that organizations are paying more attention to right? We we pay attention to that and s I'll ask with the with the new. Ah, students the new employees the new graduates nfpa I think did a very good job with that. So finding a good mentor is is important to to kind of shadow them and you know and and follow them and and to understand right. You know I've been doing this for forty plus years and I you know I still don't know everything right I learned I learned stuff from from the 25 year olds I work with so so so that that learning thing never stops. So so one is to get a good mentor I think in terms of if if they can. 19:26.99 robert solomon Do it and they can carve out the time and they'll get support from their organization or from their company is to look at the professional development programs offered by nfpa right? The nfpa programs give you give you a great a great ah a great introduction those concepts right like the life safety code seminar or the sprinkler seminar or the fire alarm seminar those are going to give you kind of the the jumping off point and then then you kind of go to that you know that next level then then you go look at the courses. Maybe that. American Fire Sprinkler Association or national fire sprinkler association. The courses they offer on sprinkler design stamp pipe design on on fire pump design and understanding on the inspection testing and maintenance protocols and and then you go to? Ah, ah. Automatic fire alarm association a faa for their courses on fire alarm design again. Which really you know those organizations now I'll take you to that next level to those deep dives. So so those are those are kind of the ah the roots I think I think those are some. Places I would I would point folks to that are just getting just getting involved in the business. 20:40.68 firecodetech Yeah that's a great point finding a mentor finding a community and then you know, understanding your code and standard base with nfpa and some of those online educational courses. You know I taking a couple of those I definitely. Super recommend I took ah several for 13 and 72 they were really really high quality I've never seen a course like that in the industry that even comes close and then ah yeah, look going drilling down to the technology specificc. 21:12.66 robert solomon Great. 21:18.73 firecodetech Ah, aaa and nfsa and a Fsa. Um, if you need more explicit criteria and you know they have books they have technical guides and things so that's great tips Robert I appreciate that? um. 21:30.85 robert solomon Yeah, okay, good. 21:38.43 firecodetech Ah, wanted to kind of go back to that design experience. You mentioned a little bit and you know it could be at your role now for Sls or during your time at nfpa. But what is an ah example of a project that you're involved in that you're. 21:40.13 robert solomon Just. 21:57.83 firecodetech Um, proud of or that kind of gives listeners an idea of occupancy wise or technology wise something that has been a focus for you. 22:07.12 robert solomon Yeah, so so I think I think the the one that um, still stands out for me personally. Um when I was at Nfpa this is the change that came into the life safety code in the 2012 edition around this notion of what's referred to as culture change and I remember in early 2008? Um I I headed up the ah nfk building and life safety group for a long time. And I was contacted by this organization called the pioneer network and they said oh we're having this conference in April and we're looking for somebody to come to speak about this nfk life safety code. That all of the hospitals and nursing homes are required to comply with because of the federal regulations I'm like oh yeah, you know I can do that I said you know it was in Dc and I said I'll bring the the washington dcrep you know you know you know? Ah I'll co-present with her. And I said you know I said you know can you send me information a bit more about what you're looking for and what your organization is doing and um I get I get like this white paper and I'm looking at it I'm going like I'm I'm reading. Ah what you you don't put kitchens. 23:25.16 robert solomon Community kitchens in a nursing home you you would put fireplaces in a nursing home. Ah, they they have all this stuff and it was this group that had been working on this for 10 years and what was stopping them was the life safety code. 23:39.95 robert solomon So my initial reaction is like this is like crazy What do you mean? this is this makes absolutely no sense. So um, so i' got through the white paper then ah you know a couple months later we're we're at the ah like a three day conference I think in Dc and I'm I'm talking to all these advocates for this. And these people were super passionate and by the time I left that conference I'm thinking like we have to figure out how we can change the life safety code to allow these things to happen. Um, and and I I kind of look back. You know some of the um. There were 1 or 2 nursing home fires I hadipheral involvement in and you know in the us we used to design nursing homes almost slightly better than we designed a prison right? Double loaded corridors with concrete block walls and um, you know, just like a dull drab place for people to you know. Spend their last months or years or whatever living. So this whole culture change initiative was to make this more into a home like environment and if you're going to call it a nursing home then you need to figure out how to you know how to how to how to make that design fit a little bit better. So the other part of me thought boy you know in 30 or 40 years if I haven't been a nursing home I want to be in one of these like really cool looking. Nice comfortable places rather than what I envision nursing homes typically being so so we had. 25:09.39 robert solomon Worked with the pioneer network and then we worked with ah um, with benefactor from the rothschild foundation and those 2 organizations took the lead. They put some research money into nfpa and the research foundation. To help us co-sponsor we did two health care summits around this concept around this notion to introduce it. Um, there was buying immediately from the technical committee on health care occupancies in the life safety code. And everybody went to work probably late 2008 Eight two thousand early 2009 to get those changes in the twenty twelve code and that is one of the main reasons that Cms moved to adopt the 2012 code kind of as quickly as they did it still takes time. But. As quickly as they did because the code now introduced these culture change initiatives. So when I look back on things I did at Fpa that that one I think that one was interesting because one it it opened my mind to look at things differently to look at the nursing home environment differently? um. It's a positive change for society and I think it's one of those code changes. It wasn't done because of a tragedy or a fire. It was a proactive thing and I think that's one of the things that I've I've seen nfpa and I've seen Icc ah you know I think I think doing more changes like that being more. 26:36.89 robert solomon Proactive to make adjustments to what society wants rather than oh now we had this fire. We had this earthquake. We have to go make a change. So I think the code organizations are much better and that that for me is I think the one the 1 thing at nfpa that um I think I'm still most proud of and. I was just glad to see how that all worked out you know and and now you know this is a this is a standard design. No 1 questions about the community kitchen in the nursing home or the fireplace or the the more bright open areas. Um, so that that's that's the one that. That that sticks with me the most I think of of everything I've done. Okay. 27:18.19 firecodetech That's awesome. Cool to see the the fire and life safety dovetail with improving life quality for people and making positive change and I think that that is a big part of the reason why a lot of people love fire and life safety is there. 27:27.80 robert solomon In your. 27:35.84 firecodetech Ah, the social implications of it and the protections and you know making a difference in your community. So that's really cool to hear about that robert. 27:44.46 robert solomon Yeah, yeah, and as I saying now you know at Sls um, we you know one of the things that we are. We're starting to get asked about you know are some of these alternative materials around sustainability and you know debt 0 energy right? Ah so we have we have the obviously the mass timber stuff that. Ah, groups like Icc and the fire protection research foundation did all that work all that effort over about a 4 year period to get those changes in the 2021 edition of the ibc. Um, that's you know, partly being pushed by sustainability initiatives. But. Now we we also have like other materials coming on the market and one of the things that we we look at at Sls is we have a project right now where it's a um, it's it's an alternative material. That has very friendly environmental properties. It has it has a low carbon footprint. But it's not you know when I pick up the book right? Now. It's not in the book. So we got. We're figuring out you know what what? What are the steps. What's the pathway to get it in the book or maybe to at least get it. Um. 28:58.24 robert solomon Approved under some alternative means and methods initially and then and kind of see where it goes from there. So so that's other I think another role that's unique for for fps that people are coming up with new ideas. New technologies new concepts right? The whole energy storage system. Ah, is another one of those that do we need it? Yes, ah, can we do it safely? Yes, um, just always go perfectly. No, but it's it's like all this right? The the. Battery manufacturers are trying to figure out. You know what? what are the alternatives to Lithium Ion batteries what's a safer type battery that gives you the same efficiencies and the same outputs. So. It's this never ending swirl of advancements in technology which is you know you know which which I which I like right? it's. It's exciting. It keeps you engaged and it it keeps keeps me interested in the business. So. 29:55.78 firecodetech Yeah, definitely it always makes it interesting. That's one of the most alluring parts about the industry is the variety variety is a spice of life and fire and life safety has no end to the variety and complexity that you can dive into and yeah, that's a definitely. 30:09.79 robert solomon Um, great. 30:14.89 firecodetech Ah, from like a schooling it was in school I had no clue that you know there were fire protection engineers that specified in products and how to get a specific product fm approved or Ul listed or you know what that process looked like going through the different testing agencies and. 30:32.84 robert solomon P. 30:34.79 firecodetech Significant time and cost associated with that process and how if you don't have somebody who knows what they're doing that. It's just basically a black box and it's like hard to crack that code and so I mean I think it's It's really interesting as ah, just ah. 30:46.76 robert solomon Good. 30:53.77 firecodetech Way to do work. But yeah, that's a very cool process and another great topic you pressed on was Lithium Ion batteries and a man what a hot topic in the industry right now people trying to figure out how to protect them. You know they're everywhere so you know. 30:56.19 robert solomon And. 31:09.99 robert solomon C. 31:11.89 firecodetech What does that look like separation of battery arrays. Ah different protection technologies. Ah, that's a great topic. 31:21.73 robert solomon Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is and and I think you know that's one um I think we we brought some attention on that at nfk back in 2014 it was ironically it was it was a guy at my church and he was ah um, he lived in Massachusetts but he's working with this company. Ah, and um. Ah, in Seattle Washington he would like he would travel out there almost every week and you know having like coffee coffee time after church he's he's told me about this battery thing I'm like you know I'm like what what what is this so after about six months I said can you come in and do a lunch and learn for our technical staff on this so I had brad come in and he told us about it and like said that was twenty fourteen and we were just starting to hear a little bit more about this and then all of a sudden you know he's explaining like what the uses are and this is before this is really before the. You know technology really started to ramp up. So so as far back as 24 times I just like you know I wouldn' have done anything about ess until a couple years later had I not you know had this conversation with you know, 1 of my fellow church members. So it's just it's it's weird how some of these things kind of. Ah, kind of transpire but you know that that got Npa looking more closely at it. Some research worked and then creation of nf p Eight fifty five and you know everybody's paralleling with the requirements in nfpa one and the ifc and. 32:51.15 robert solomon You know, trying to figure out how all those pieces fit and something you hit on right? it's that um it's that that that dance right? between well here's what the code does. Well here's what the standard does. Well here's what the the ul or fm product standard does for the testing and. It is you know those pieces just don't those pieces just don't happen. There's a lot of lot of careful coordination. Um and cooperation between those organizations to you know to make sure everybody gets the right test protocols and procedures. So we can end up with you know. Good documents like nfpa eight fifty five or the requirements end up in the fire codes or the building codes or I heard last week I haven't verified it yet. Um, there's something in apparently in the Massachusetts stretch energy code provision that I think it takes effect july first. Ah, so someone told me that they thought they heard there's something in there about mandatory use of ess in certain types of buildings if you know if the local jurisdiction adopts the stretch code. So I have to do some homework on that to to verify that. But. But yeah, you're right? It's you know that the stuff is everywhere and there's ah, there's no end in sight. 34:08.85 firecodetech Yeah, another good point. Ah you know that emphasizes your statement of its everywhere is sustainability which you mentioned and how that is getting ever-increasing focus in fire and life safety which is pushing people to. You know, consider solar arrays and and battery storage for the ups for those solar arrays and so it kind of just feeds off of itself in this push forward and so it's interesting to one of the issues I wanted to. Focus on because I've seen it as a through line and your career is emerging technologies and kind of how do we look at them and address them as these things pop up or as Technologies die like we've seen recently with some of the foam products out there. Um, and the legislation kind of removing those technologies from the conversation or modifying them and having new products in their place. But ah yeah I think that's a great topic I'd love to hear from you about um how you see a like a framework for. Taking a look at how these things change. 35:27.60 robert solomon Yeah, so so I think I you know those are other examples I think of of changes driven by society. So my my first exposure to that is whenever the us epa and other. Ah. Their counterparts other countries started the phase out of the hallons. AhCfc gases back in the 1980 S so one of my former colleagues and nfpa casey grant um he he was he was he was. He was very much in the middle of that. Um, ah in his role at Nfpa. 36:00.74 robert solomon And that was kind of like you know here's this halon 13 ah one when I worked at nav fact you know and anything that was data or tracking or telementary or communications. There was a haon 13 or 1 system in it. Um I should know if it right? but you know. Be in those rooms where we would do the discharge tests right? So you know and I think back then like you know it was. You didn't even think twice about it. So so all of a sudden There's this Ah ah, there's this movement to get rid of it back in like I said I think that started in 1980 1991 maybe but 1989 that's kind of whenever I think that was here the Montreal protocol and like all the signatories said you know we're going to ban it by you know whatever date. So now of a sudden everybody like you said everybody's scrambling. We have this great agent. It's very effective. Um, it doesn't leave any residue. It doesn't leave a mess but it you know it destroys the ozone layer. So I you know I I went on a trip to China with some other nfpa folks and ul folks um to talk to their and their government agencies about. Alternatives to halon right? So we're talking about that before the replacement chemicals are there so we're talking about these early concepts you know not early like this like automatic sprinkler systems but early concepts like water mist. So. 37:28.32 robert solomon Shortly after that trip then npa starts down the road to develop nfpa seven fifty water mist is maybe ah, an alternative agent but then the the other producers were looking at alternative. Clean, agent gas extinguishing. Ah. Features or characteristics that that then was my foray into this like oh boy, you know there's other stuff we have to consider. Of course we're going to put the fire out but we also have to look at other implications you look at energy efficiency. So. You know now we're putting different materials on the facades of the buildings to manage you know, ah more efficient cooling in the summer months and more efficient heating in the winter months and oh yeah, by the way, there's you know, ah, an inch or two inches of some kind of poly material. Um, sandwiched between the Panels. So you know you see like okay, um, that's a societal response for energy stuff and then how do we safely get that material and then you see development initial development of the old standard. Ah the old uniform building code standard on this. Morphed into nfpa two eighty five so there's another example of of where of where those pieces really connect and I think now when you look at sustainability you know I think a lot of the focus is really going to be on the materials right? The the big dog right now it was the. 38:59.43 robert solomon Creation of the of the mass timber requirements in the code that allow us to go to I think 18 stories now for certain occupancies. Um, if you told me ten years ago we'd have code provisions allowed wood for ten stories I would have said yeah, no way next? ah. But it's it's that whole thing it's like okay, right your your initial fpe reacts is like it's what it burns. It's bad and it's like oh it's what it's heavy timber. Um you can it burn? Yes, but it has unique characteristics like the charring to create the insulation and and again I look back. My you know. Volunteer fire department days I said very rural area I remember going to barn fires and like you know the siding would be gone but those big you know 10 by 10 beams would they would just smolder for days and they were still structurally sound and so that was like my connection to like. Oh yeah, that stuff really is pretty durable when it comes to fire. So it's it's it's things like that. But my personal opinion as I started to say my proe opinion is it's going to really now be on the materialials. You know? Um, if I have I guess the literature I read right? You know to. Produce concrete. It's very high intensity and it's you know you know it's a c o 2 issue and things like that or production of steel or the supply chain like I can you know I can make the steel but you know now am am I bringing the steel from. 40:32.22 robert solomon Ah, foreign country. Well how much energy does that take and you know how does that affect supply chain. So I think a lot of effort's going to really be on alternative materials for building construction. You mentioned the pfas issue with with a triple f right same thing we have that and pretty much every. Type one Aircraft hanger in the us whether it's military or civilian or commercial hangar. But that's that's where american technology and an effort comes in the the manufacturers of the a triple Fc like ah, yeah, you know this I see where this is going my product won't be able to be sold after some period of time or states are going to regulate are going to regulate it out of use I better come up with an alternative so it it it puts that bonus or burden back on. Those manufacturers to come up with the next thing and they did right that you know they they came up with the ah the flooring free phone. So the where there's there. There's always a way to figure it out is is is what I've learned if anything over you know 40 years in this business. So. 41:44.37 firecodetech Oh yeah, definitely it's remarkable how fast that they've spun up those new foam solutions with even though they're remarkably different with their viscosities and how much they had to alter their. 41:55.47 robert solomon But. 42:00.18 firecodetech Inductors and all the associated equipment and still. It's like we have listed products coming out for those things. So it's It's pretty remarkable. How just it changes and people figure it out. Um. 42:10.80 robert solomon Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly yeah yeah, you know I mean a micro version of that it wasn't so much the environmental thing but if you recall and I got to say like couple years ago it's probably at least fifteen years ago now maybe 42:18.23 firecodetech This. 42:29.20 robert solomon 12 years um whenever we had the ban on antifreze and sprinkler systems right? You know Nfpa took a very you know hard stance on that and you know the um you know the committee kind of you know, kind of put use of antifreeze on the back shelf like you can't use it because of a couple of events that. 42:47.85 robert solomon Associates was made aware of so what happened you know the the manufacturers you know, figure out how to make an antifreeze that's not combustible even in a hundred percent concentrated form but you know so so you know there's a case where um. The antifreeze. Actually you know made the fire potentially worse and that's then hey you know the fire sprinkler system's purpose is to make the fire go away not to enhance it. But there's another one of those circumstances where you know where the manufacturers figured out a way to. Come up with a a non-combustible interfreze concentrate. 43:28.75 firecodetech Yeah I think that's a great example because ah, you know at the early part of my career we were I was working for a suppression contractor and we were ripping those systems out of places and then now I'm designing systems small systems for you know that. 43:35.85 robert solomon Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 43:46.24 firecodetech Spaces like little garages or attic spaces that those systems fit perfectly and now I'm getting to install those systems So that's a great point on how technology and manufacturing can find a way and that innovation piece is pretty cool. 44:01.80 robert solomon Yeah, definitely definitely. Yeah. 44:05.18 firecodetech So I Saw that recently that you were a part of a section in the nfpa handbook about smart technologies and how that um impacts or affects fire and life safety. I'd love to hear about that if you wouldn't mind speaking about it. 44:23.26 robert solomon Yeah, sure. So yeah, that's that's ah, that's a new chapter in the new edit of the handbook the twenty first edition of the handbook that came out recently. So my collaborat on that is gentleman named Ken Boyce from other writers laboratories uow and ah. i' bet ket over the years at the U Fire Council meetings so when I was on the council and then one of my last presentations at Nfpa was in November of 19 and 1919 of 2019 ah, where the the research foundation ran a 2 wo-day symposium on um, ah, kind of electrical data needs and I presented kind of looking at that from the perspective of of bias or the international standards organization. My last three or four years at Fpa I chaired the us tag for an Iso committee IsoTC268 which dealt with smart and sustainable communities. So a lot of what that had to deal with it had to deal with kind of the measures. That you know jurisdictions whether it's city a county a state. It could be the whole country. Um or subdivision know a township or a town Whatever some of the measures they could do to look at their sustainability kind of provisions and you know one of the things that are. 45:47.98 robert solomon Committees had worked on. We looked at some of the metrics about about what you would measure. But we also looked at the ways that you would measure it and that involved extensive use of smart technologies right? you know sensors whether it's a camera or it's something embedded in the sidewalk or embedded in the street to. Look at pedestrian traffic vehicle traffic. Ah you know to to to collect data about you know about about bus routes about garbage collection times. So so that that was kind of the the piece I I talked about at that event and Ken was a. Ah, presented on some of that from the ul perspective so we were asked to kind of put something together around smart technologies I think the initial idea was to focus it on smart firefighting and there's a whole ah fire protection research foundation report on that which is awesome. But we said you know look this is you know this isn't just smart firefighting right? This is this is something that affects my opinion every aspect of the built environment right? So everything from the time the developer says I want to build a whatever. Right? And then they might have ah they might have a small internal design team is this that design team starts firing up their revt model all of a sudden now I have like that first piece of smart technology I've got something that's going to get translated. 47:21.72 robert solomon To the other consultants. Um, it's probably going to get translated as part of the as built drawings for the building and then those things are going to start to connect to maybe oh elevator. Oh here here's here's all my elevator specs over here here's the manufacturers criteria for the actual elevators that I have installed. So. All of a sudden you you have this? ah this ecosystem that is connected from obviously the design stage all the way through building lifecycle. So I think our our our chapter kind of work to connect those pieces together how you know ah kind of kind of how it all works. Everything that we do now there's there's some aspect right? I mean what you know you know you and I are using smart technology today even though we're using you know computers or cameras or whatever right? Those those kind of fit into that because we're connected to the internet somewhere and and I think that's really any. Any device or component that kind of can get online like that and go to the cloud somewhere that that kind of falls into this broad category of of smart technology. So we we kind of laid out the the basics of that and talked about like you know you know. Where this appears I mean it appears in tractors and combines it appears in the medical community and the medical devices. Um it. It appears in traffic lights and traffic signals. So so it's everywhere. it's around us um I don't think it's going away I think if anything right? There's going to be more of it. So. 48:59.27 robert solomon So we tried to set that broad landscape about all the places that smart technology shows up and appears and you know some people say well my privacy my privacy my privacy. Um I think. I think the days of privacy are I I don't say that they're gone but you know like we you know we we we all have to decide if we're going to carry a smartphone and if we carry a smartphone you know we're going to lose some of that privacy. We can control. Maybe what what app is tracking us but we we have to make those decisions. So so what we try to do is is lay out that broad landscape and then and then kind of bring it back to. Okay, when we look at the built environment in codes and standards. You know what? what are? what are some places that this is working in right now and and you look in n f p 25 and and nfpa twenty. For example, you see some things that we now can monitor remotely will let you will let that count towards your Nfpa 25 itm inspection or maybe a weekly test instead of having a person to physically go there open the door. And watch the pump run for 20 minutes and then go back. So so you know there there are ways that we can improve those efficiencies but there's also the performance criteria the codes had ah the standards. How to add it right in Nfk Twenty five and thirteen and nfk twenty as examples and those are. 50:30.16 robert solomon Those are the the 3 I think we ah we talk about the most you know within the new chapter. Um, so you know that that that was the purpose of that um I I hope that I hope we achieve that there I mean there's so much you could write. And what's interesting is you know what people don't realize those handbooks take a long time to produce and nfpa did ah I think did an awesome job with it. Um, but that content it's content that Ken and I wrote probably back in most of it. January February of 2021 and you look at how many things have changed since then right it those. 51:02.95 firecodetech Wow. Well. 51:05.67 robert solomon And those 2 years right so we we had. We had a chance to add a few more things a bit later in the year but you know there's a point where okay, you know it's going into production. You can only make editorial changes you you know you can't add the new substance. But I said that whole area of ah of smart systems. You know there's there's something. New. It seems like almost every day that you learn about or read about or or kind of the next thing that that's around the corner. So. 51:31.96 firecodetech Yeah, yeah, it's It's so ubiquitous that you know you get into. We do a lot of military work and you know they don't want smart devices in there because it's a cybersecurity threat and it's like trying to find ah a pump or something a domestic water pump or something that's not already. 51:39.25 robert solomon Right. 51:49.50 firecodetech Have bluetooth capabilities. It's like they're having to scramble to find something in the range of the manufacturers. They're used to. That's not smart capable or disabled in some ways. So it's ah fascinating how ubiquitous it is. But. 51:57.73 robert solomon At right. 52:04.14 robert solomon Right. 52:06.21 firecodetech Robert I want to be mindful of your time and I've really enjoyed the conversation and lots of great topics and we didn't get to all the questions I had for you. But um I just really appreciate. It was a great conversation and thanks for coming on the show. 52:13.69 robert solomon Just go. 52:22.65 robert solomon All right? Well again, thank you very much and I said it's it's great for me to see young folks like you. Ah you know getting in this business and that was one of your questions right? We we need more and you know I think if I've got a minute here. 1 of the questions I want to make sure we hit on. You know he said what. 52:33.38 firecodetech Sure. 52:38.32 robert solomon But what are the other things to attract more people and I think one of the right I think Sfpe is doing a great job I think the individual universities do a great job of that outreach one of the things that that I see is ah a potentially untapped group of ah of engineers. It's the 24 schools that have architectural engineering programs and I I know there's one at Wpi. That's where most of my students come in um to my class from there's 1 at Oklahoma state for example, but I think I think that I think. Architectural engineers are kind of like fps because like they're learning a little bit about every building system and feature and they they already have a pretty good background on understanding electrical systems and and how the architect works and the structural piece. Ah and the plumbing pieces. So. 53:13.95 firecodetech M. 53:29.43 robert solomon I think I think that's ah, that's maybe an untapped group that we all could be looking at to to maybe go talk to the architectural engineering students at these you know, handful of schools that offer those programs to you know, get them interested and then have them. You know come to work and then you know part time. You know, go get your masters at Cal Paulley or Maryland or Wpi or I don't even know who all who all has them now of the Us. But those are some things to I think that's a good place to look for for new new folks. 53:59.50 firecodetech That's a great point I appreciate you touching on that because I see just nonstop on Linkedin Job posting job posting job posting people are looking for new hires and I think that you know as a industry we have to be better at outreach going to Ashray and. 54:08.99 robert solomon Kind of. 54:17.24 firecodetech Going to these other professional Societies. You know going and speaking with other college degree plans like the architectural engineering and putting the thought of fire protection and the promise of what a great field. It is and in those young minds. So I Appreciate that point we got to get creative and um. Let ah get the word out about how great this profession is so that's a great point to end on. 54:38.44 robert solomon Yeah, great. Okay, well yeah, yeah, thank you very much and yeah, um, best of luck with the podcast who and you and you you your their fulltime job so it sounds sounds like sounds like you've had a you've had a good niche here as well. So enjoy. 54:54.12 firecodetech Um, yeah, oh thank you very much.  

Bryan Hoskins Phd. PE. Is a professor at Oklahoma State University in the Fire Protection and Safety Engineering Technology program. Topics covered in this episode are myths about evacuation, performance based design, and understanding the intent of codes and standards.   Transcript:    00:02.86 firecodetech Well hello Bryan welcome to the firecode Tech podcast. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you because my pleasure. Awesome. 00:07.56 Bryan Hoskins Thank you guys My pleasure. Glad to be here. 00:13.66 firecodetech Well I always like to get these things started with talking about how you found fire and life safety as a career path. 00:22.41 Bryan Hoskins Well my stories rather interesting I'll give you the short version here because I go on for a long time on this but it's also one I think it's fairly typical in fire protection. Um, and that well there are some people who know about fire protection early on. 00:38.87 Bryan Hoskins I didn't actually discover it until after I was already in college. So I grew up in the San Francisco bay area um and after my junior year. My I have a twin brother so him and I convince our parents to take us on a three week 14 school tour. Um, where we hit schools throughout the entire country. Um that three week tour though was let's say we flew in and out of Nashville and went everywhere from Florida to Massachusetts and through the midwest and everything else. It was a very busy few weeks there. Um. But I know I want to do engineering because I like enjoyed math and science and my senior yearr in high school I had an advanced chemistry elective where well so a prevviewing wifi protection's a good decision. My group everything we did to get to choose their own experiments. Every one of mine groups except for one involves stuff exploding or flames or something else. Another elective I had in high school that I start out and enjoyed was psychology. So what do you do with chemistry fire. And psychology. Well it was obvious then looking back that yes fire protection special life safety was the route I was intended to go but I know I did existed. We happened to stop at the University Of Maryland 01:57.15 firecodetech Are. 02:08.80 firecodetech Wow. 02:11.43 Bryan Hoskins Because my brother was he's the one who actually put Maryland on the list. Um, he really wanted to see it because he was going into aerospace engineering specifically astro there some opportunities there that he didn't that weren't available elsewhere so he put it on the list. 02:27.82 Bryan Hoskins And while we had agreed that neither one of us was going to make the other one decide where they had to go to school. Um, we still end up applying to a lot of the same school so Maryland for me adding it on was something of well this way I mean I did enjoy the campus and if it was something that i. Oh wasn't necessarily a bad one and he really wanted to go there so I put an application but we'd agreed we weren't going to decide based on what the 1 did and then found out about an opportunity I got at Meland that I didn't have anywhere else which was I got accepted in to which I didn't even know this program applied when. Had even applied there but they had what's called the gemstone program which was a 4 year interdisciplinary team research undergraduate team research project in science technology and society and that really appealed to me so it's okay, I'll go to Maryland still no clue that fire protection exists. Um. I also knew I didn't know enough about the engineering field. So I went in undecided engineering and then it oh and I took my time to go and look around at the different majors. Um I know I didn't want to do electrical or computer because that wasn't something that necessarily appealed to me. But. What's the difference mechanical civil aerospace and oh this is fire protectionction 1 let me look at that as well. Um, and as I started to look at it. Some of the big selling points to me. Obviously as I said the okay like fire flames in that chemistry class psychology. 04:01.43 Bryan Hoskins Really fits but 1 of the other big selling points on it to me and this is something that's also true of our program at Osu because Maryland program was founded by an osu alum but when I went to mechanical engineering to talk to them. It was as if I was a number. As I was just sitting there. The advisor said I mean what's the best way to put it later on though I was at an awards banquet a few years later that advisor was hinting out the wordss for mechanical engineering and read off a name and it see well I guess he's not here. She then walked up and so it was such an I mean I had the impression was a number thing and when one of your top students is getting awards you don't even know if they're a male student or a female student and he was the one who is advising everyone. Um. And there was that you're just a number meanwhile with fire protection when I went there I remember meeting with the program head on a Friday afternoon and we had a conversation someone like this one here where it was well let me know what you're interested in. Why were you considering this. Friday afternoon I got there like 4 we talked until about six o'clock so the facts there's a faculty member willing to stay talk to me about the program for a few hours on a Friday afternoon. Um, and there's really that sense of family and community and fire protection which is something that I thought. 05:20.74 firecodetech Wow. 05:36.68 Bryan Hoskins Yes, This is a good fit for me so curriculume lines up then oh the atmosphere lines up and that's how I got into fire protection. So a lot of sort of chances If This hadn't happened that hadn't happened wouldn't be here but I'm very glad that I found it because it is a. Probably the perfect fit for me. 05:55.89 firecodetech Wow, That's awesome means some really neat stuff there in that first just your background piece talking about you know your interests at an early age in chemistry and and fire and then how that like that sense of family and. 06:05.54 Bryan Hoskins With him. 06:12.16 firecodetech In fire and life safety which is something I've always seen people kind of band together because of the just the nature of it and yeah I didn't know that about the okay state being founded by a Maryland lum either that kind of blows my mind because of the tensions between the 2 Oh yeah, yeah. 06:21.28 Bryan Hoskins Me want a way around oh prof Brian who founded the program at Maryland Graduate from Osu. 06:30.64 firecodetech Oh I didn't realize that Wow that's very interesting, Very interesting. Awesome Well to give the listeners a little bit more context Would you speak a little bit about your professional roles and. 06:33.80 Bryan Hoskins Death. 06:50.45 firecodetech Kind of positions that you've held and and how that work has colored your context now as a professor. 06:55.34 Bryan Hoskins Yeah, so in this I'll say 1 thing that I always encourage all of our students do and that's readily offered oh is getting internships so I'll start with some of the internships I had and how that sort of shaped. So my career decisions going forward. So first internship it was right after I had decided I was going to do fire protection because that was my sophomore year summer after Sophomore year I had had 1 fire protection class at that point so not too much in it. But oh. Was going to be home for the summer and wanted to have a meaningful experience and oh from that talk to professor milkke um, at Maryland that spring of the okay I'm going home for this I'm going be home for spring break then home for the summer. Um, I said before I grew up in the San Francisco bay area so the opposite coast of the country and it was so what options do we have out there. Um and he gave me context for 2 different alums that were in the bay area I met with both of them over spring break. Um. And then that led to a job offer from Jensen Hughes or actually at the time it was just cues. Um, because they had some major projects going on that summer where it was smoke control I had never had a smoke control class but they needed someone. 08:26.86 Bryan Hoskins To climb up ladders and make sure dampers had closed um to go through and just do a lot of that type of work which okay, you don't need much in terms of classes and other things to be working on those projects. Um. And because how the schedule went in the month of July I got four days off Sunday the 1st july although that one almost didn't happen and then two of the other sundays um, and each day we were working again at the first job site about 9 am m leaving the last one about midnight one a m. Um, then I had to get home and rinse strike cycle repeat for the entire month. Um, now I was being paid over time for all those extra hours. So it was a very lucrative summer but what I really took away from that 1 um, was just that value of the hands on experience. Because never had smoke control but when I took smoke control later on elderly. Okay, this makes a lot more sense because I've seen it done it and understand what things are and even my class sits today I make sure when talk about smoke control. Okay when we're talking about the special inspector process. Well I was there as the guy was doing it. So here's what people do when they do this rather than as well I read about in a book. Um, but actually having that intimate knowledge there. Um I also while in school um spent a year. Well not quite a year because it was supposed to start. 10:02.91 Bryan Hoskins In the fall of the year when there was the anthrax scare in the capol. So my position got delayed starting a little bit because that same office was dealing with all of that so they couldn't quite take on a student at the start of the semester. Um, but I was working with the congressional office of compliance and that was also a very. Eyeopening experience because dealing with the library of congress buildings dealing with congressional office buildings. There are I mean I got to see an actual halon system while I was there which is something that isn't very common. But there was a lot of understanding of from that sort of hj perspective. How do you do things especially in that environment where there's code compliance but you can't make that building code. Compliant. So how do you have to sort of analyze the hazards and while we weren't doing official performance-based design type of approach. It was that same process of understanding. Okay, what are the hazards what's the intent of the code. How can we make these buildings a situation safe. Enough for oh people to be in the building I was actually the first ever intern that they had hired um and it was a wonderful experience just to see it from that perspective other positions I've had before getting into academia. 11:32.62 Bryan Hoskins Um I spent a year working for Europe um out there San Francisco office doing primarily life safety plan review which again, that's a lot of the okay so how is it that you go about applying things. To the real world. Plus it also helps I think when I have students of well why are you giving us this I had that assigned to me in my first six weeks on the job. You're gonna be graduating soon if they handed it to me. They can hand it to you. So let's get you ready for those things. Um. And again seeing sort of that overall hierarchy of how everything fits together and works together and you have in that office a lot of different trades plus also a lot of the workouts doing with more performance-based design and so really diving into again that sort of. Here's the intent of the code. How can we make sure that our building meets the intent of the code even if we can't quite meet the letter of it. Um, and then the other position I had before oh coming to Osu was working for the national instituteive standards and technology. Nist in the fire research area. Um, and that was a really meaningful experience in that I got to see just when you're trying to look at the problem finding identify. Okay. 13:06.58 Bryan Hoskins Doing research identifying. Okay here's potential issues was it's collecting data here's what the data says um and being able to then bring that back into because National stand technology. It's the department of Commerce and so it's not just doing research for research Sake. It's and now how is this going to be used to help improve things and so that was a big learning experience there as well. 13:34.86 firecodetech So That's awesome. Well I wanted to I see how you know your interests in the commercial more commercial side of things have influenced. So What you research Now. So That's very interesting I like hearing about that. Performance-based design and the different you know real-world application and you know looking back at my time at Osu I can see you know some of the exercises that we did in like you know our life safety class where we're really looking at the building code and functionally going through those. 14:03.64 Bryan Hoskins We. 14:12.16 firecodetech Now I do those every day so I'm very thankful for that background and when I got out into the workforce I could really see how that set okay state grads apart from people who didn't and were just looking at the code for the first time so I just wanted to. 14:25.73 Bryan Hoskins You. 14:29.23 firecodetech You know say thanks for that and then I could see that in your teaching and I and I resonate with that as you're speaking about it now. Um, but yeah. 14:34.87 Bryan Hoskins Us to add on to that I'll just like to add that 1 thing that I've noticed happens. Well a lot in my career is that I try to bring that stuff into the classroom I've had students multiple many times write me like six months after they graduate of. Yeah, when going through your class I didn't understand why you expected us to know all this and do all this at the time thought it was ridiculous again, there's six months in their job. Don't change because it turns out this is what my employer expects so when the students grumble about it. Don't listen to them because what you're doing is a big service to them to help them getting ready for what the career world is rather than just the academic side of things. 15:28.23 firecodetech Yeah, definitely I think that there is a lot of great stuff in the I had you for fire dynamics and the the life safety course and just I mean the fire protection engineering exam is very heavily weighted on that. Fire dynamics. It seems to me and that's a great thing that we could talk about too is your ah recent experience in helping with the sfp prep course but not to get too far off track but it just seems logical in the in the conversation topic. But. 15:52.65 Bryan Hoskins Um. 15:59.45 Bryan Hoskins Yeah. 16:04.34 firecodetech It's all kind of placed together. You know you do it as a practicing engineer or at least a lot of people involved with performance based design do and then it's also in the engineering exam. So all these things kind of dovetail education experience and professional licensure. 16:20.63 Bryan Hoskins Yeah, I'd say it's as so they all dovetail together. Um people sometimes try to think about everything being separate but in reality, everything's always interconnected and woven you can't just focus in on 1 thing. It's always see well this ties into that and here's how everything interconnects and as you mentioned yeah I've been one of the things that I've done professionally is work with the SfPEP exam prep course which is something I very much enjoy because I Think. Talk a little bit more later about all my professional involvement but I think it's very important that oh at least in my position I Realize how much the people before me have done to set it up so where we have the profession that we do. And I think it's very important to give back because I and those again it's more label but part is I Went to back Demo's ability to give back to the profession to have an even bigger impact than I could by just being a consulting engineer for example or. Working in an Hj's office or whatever it is have an opportunity to give back because I realize how much others they've given to me and the P exam prep course is a good example of that because there are many many people who go through that. 17:50.12 Bryan Hoskins Um, and I will say the success rate of students who have taken that course um, who've then gone on to pass pass rates much much higher than the overall pass rate and it's a sizeable percentage of people that are passing or basically taking that course. Because it does get into all the different topics. Um, it's for those students who've been at Osu you've already covered a lot of those topics in your classes and same thing goes to people who might have a degree from Maryland or Wpi or any of the other universities. But. As we all know that's not the majority of people in the field. Most people are there because they've got a degree in something else in those universities while we would love to be having more students. It's getting people to know about it before they come to college or in their first few years 18:33.12 firecodetech Um, yeah. 18:45.90 Bryan Hoskins Um, a lot of people don't discover the field until after they've graduated from college and so for those people who might have been a mechanical engineer by nature who so then they get hired by a firm that oh well, you can do air movement. So here start doing this vent work for a. Smoke control system or okay, you know fluids and pipes here you're gonna be doing sprinklers and so then they learn their one specific area but not all the others and the area I've been teaching though for the P exam Prep courses. Well both on passive Fire protection. Um, which is one that. But even a lot of people who've gone through some of those other programs in Osu don't have a deep knowledge base in um, what? well as to human behavior and have helped with the means of egress one as Well. So very much in just. Teaching people about okay here's what it means and like I do in my classes I tend to focus more on why things are the way they are in the codes and standards or how to approach problems and less on these sort of well here memorize these rules. Um. The reason being is that and I know number of us who have taught for the P Exam prep course we've had this conversation but is the intent of the course when you're teaching something like that just a get ready for the test or is it about. 20:19.70 Bryan Hoskins Giving people the knowledge base they need to be successful in the field and I will sound that one while we are I said very good success rate and give people ready for the exam but there's also a lot of emphasis on not just here here's the question learn how to do these particular skills and then you're done. It's. Really trying to make sure that the people who go through that have a better understanding of what it means to be a fire protection engineer um not just that they can do certain problems because there's other P Exam Prep course is out there that are much more of that you just want to learn how to do problems. They'll do that. Um. 20:47.73 firecodetech Yeah, yeah. 20:56.27 Bryan Hoskins But personally I prefer the approach that sfpe has taken which is why that's the one I'm been working with um which is much more that holistic. Let's tell you what you need to know and in the process you'll get better for the exam. But ultimately I want. People who graduate from Osu that have been in my classes or who take that p exam prep course or any other professional development course that I teach is I want them to be able to go out and be a better professional. Not well I put in my time got the checkbox and so now it's time to move on. 21:34.11 firecodetech Yeah I Know what you mean? Yeah,, That's a good point I like the sentiment of understanding the deeper meaning why and the more I get into my professional career the more I'm impressed by professionals that don't just can't aren't just regurgitating code. You know, but they understand the deeper meaning and the intent and and have the ability to push back when the official is is not asking for something that is not you know with what the intent of the code What is asking and so. Think that's very important the more you get into the profession is to understand why and not just be a code Jockey somebody who just you know is very lawyeristic I mean you have to be but um, you need both. But yeah. 22:22.29 Bryan Hoskins Yeah, yeah, and I'll also add to that one especially at Osu which the reason why there I'm even more stressing why things are the way they are done is I like to point out to students of one. The codes are always changing. Um, if you memorize all you're doing is memorizing numbers or something like that. Well what if you know the say twenty eighteen edition of the Ibc and then you're on the 21 edition of Nfpa one one. What's going on in those 2 but from a life safety standpoint the numbers change maybe well gray areas might shift one way or the other. But what's going on. There is no different love them. We get to the 2033 edit of the code I can guarantee you that there will be major differences from what there are now not necessarily sure what. 23:06.85 firecodetech And. 23:19.16 Bryan Hoskins Those are going to be um, but we know that they're going to change over time and if all that you ever do is memorize. Okay, here's what this one particular section is right now that doesn't give you the flexibility when you're going to the different additions of the code. Plus let's say you get. A project 1 time. That's overseas. Well you have to meet their code but you also have to consider from a life safety standpoint and what's going on there and are you actually meeting the temp because the intent of the codes. That's pretty much stable. We're not seeing Matt change. 1 addition to the next. And so understanding those helps with performance-based design helps when you end up in different jurisdictions. Um, and yeah, ultimately it's gonna make you a better professional if you understand why rather than simply relying on the what. 24:13.52 firecodetech Yeah, that's a good point and you never know you know whether you're going to be working on a department of defense job or a V a job or a fm you know, global criteria job where the criteria is going to shift so dramatically that. 24:23.93 Bryan Hoskins Um, okay. 24:31.51 firecodetech You know if you don't have your fundamentals rock solid Then you're just gonna just be totally unwired in your capability to design or function in that space So is very important and um, but yeah, so let's talk about. 24:40.70 Bryan Hoskins Never. 24:47.77 firecodetech Your role now at Osu and we've alluded to it several times already. But um, ah, you know how you're a professor now and a little bit of background on the program at ok state of course go poke. So I'll always like to um. Promote the program when I get a chance to. 25:06.91 Bryan Hoskins Yeah, so oh Oklahoma State University has the oldest still active fire protection program in the nation. Um, so we've been around a long time longer than any of the others and it was founded. Originally. Um, to well teach some of the basics of fire protection then as study changed and Osha came into existence the program adding the safety con component. Now we have some students who think it's fire protection or safety. Um, but the facts you like to emphasis. It's fire protection and safety. Um a lot of what gets done in the fire protection realm in the safety realm you're doing a lot of the same basic things. Um. And so it's easy to transition from one to the other. They're not 2 distinct things. They're really in both cases you're trying to identify hazards trying to identify mitigation strategies for those hazards and then it just comes down to that specific application that you're applying it to. Um, but I will say the 1 thing that I think osu does better than any of the other programs I am biased here, but it's very much. It's an engineering technology program and engineering technology. What. 26:38.74 firecodetech Um, yeah. 26:41.70 Bryan Hoskins Separates that is it's far more based on the hands on so in our program majority of the classes that are in major have a lab component. So the students get to go actually touch feel experience see. Whaters arere talking about. They're not just reading about it in a book. Um, and I think that's a very valuable skill set to have um, going back to said earlier of learn about smoke control being able to go into buildings and see. Those dampers operating and seeing how the special inspection was going helped me understand that far more than just reading about in a book does um and so I think that's one of the big advantages to the Osu program is that hands on applied. Oh part of the program. And not just pure theory now as far as what I've taught there what I cover. Um, okay I've just said it's not it's fire and safety. That being said I tend to teach classes are a little bit more fire focused because that's. I got my degree. Oh that's also I mean I'm a professional fire protection and I'm a professional licensed fire protection engineer. So yeah, that's my main area but as far as that goes oh my first semester at Osu I was teaching. 28:11.19 Bryan Hoskins Butker design and oh the at the time called structural design for fire and life safety where it covered passive fire protection and nfpa one one basically put the building code passive fire protection nfpa one a one and human behavior all into one course. 28:29.61 firecodetech Our shit. 28:30.65 Bryan Hoskins Um, we have since split that up some because it was about too too many important Concepts all being crammed into one course. Um so I've taught I said taught their own passive life safety Human behavior. 28:49.83 Bryan Hoskins And building code all at once then the next semester added in human factors. Um, which okay, that's not fire protection but it's closely related to a lot of things I do which is looking at human response and emergencies. 29:09.50 Bryan Hoskins Um, and so it ties in very much directly with the research and again life safety side that I've been interested in after that because of some changes in faculty and other changes I taught oh and continue to teach The. So suppression detection course. Um that covers as again as's one as class we put probably too much in at first because it's the only class in the major on fire alarms. The only class in the major that covered special Hazards um and covered the start of Sprinkler systems. 29:46.58 Bryan Hoskins All into one course. Um, now we split off that special Hazards more into an elective which I teach Um, that's also available as a grad course and that suppression detection class has shifted to being still the introduction to sprinkler systems as well as much more on fire alarms. 29:54.25 firecodetech Um. 30:04.61 Bryan Hoskins And just how codes and standards operate and work then I also as you mentioned earlier top fire dynamics for a few years um as just as best fit for who was on faculty at the time be teaching that I've taught oh smoke control. 30:24.36 Bryan Hoskins Um, and oh yeah, so that's pretty much everything on the pe exam prep course except for I haven't yet got fluids because of just other faculty have gotten that one. Um, but I've covered so much of What's on the p exam but I also think it's important. Um for someone who's a professor to have taught that wide range because 1 in order to understand if you can understand you you can teach something you have to understand it. Um, and. Because if you're trying to teach and you don't understand it. It's going to be a failure for everyone at that point. Um and so having that is good plus by having that bread. Of course that I've taught I mean and you might remember this from some of the class but routinely point out. And then in this class here's how this ties together and then in this class. Oh so bringing in those connections which you know best when? okay, very taught that class. So okay, well in that class. You did this here's how that's relevant here because far too often students. Um, which they learn better than this when they get older but students a lot of times view the class that say okay I have to learn this stuff for the test and then I can immediately forget it and never have to know it again. Um, and they don't. 31:57.57 Bryan Hoskins See all those interconnections but the as many of your listeners probably know as you get into a real profession even if oh there's one area that you primarily work in you don't just use the 1 class and that's it. You're having to pull in multiple things all through it. Everything's interconnected and so by teaching all those things it makes it even easier for me to point out to the students directly. Okay, you covered that here. That's how this applies here. So if you need to go back and review what was there this would be a good time to do it. To just tie in this entire experience of learning. Um rather than viewing it as a bunch of separate individual steps. 32:43.64 firecodetech Oh yeah, That's a great point because our profession is notorious for being just widespread I mean mechanical systems electrical systems life safety and you're looking at building construction and paci fire protection and So. You're you the whole profession is based on being a jack of all trades. So. 33:09.42 Bryan Hoskins Yeah, and I will say earlier I'd mentioned how I end up fire protection. The one part I meant to add in there as well is to just echo what you said is one of the other things that that to our conversation with the program had um that drew me in was that. You had to be f like we have to pull in all these different things because just personally I prefer having to okay I can use stuff from Psychology Sociology and human Behavior. So You have to understand that you have to understand the mechanical civil. As but to a lot of other majors where you end up being much more siloed you're not using as many different things and that required breath was something that definitely peeled to me because it was yes, there's more to this field. More opportunities more career paths that are available than in some of the others. 34:09.67 firecodetech That's a great point. Yeah, it's definitely a good career for somebody who likes to be interested in in varied pursuits and very engineering so varied engineering systems because. I Mean there's just so many different things you could look at especially I mean people get into product fire protection and Ul listings and ah fm approvals I mean so you could be looking at fire and lie safety characteristics about anything in the built environment and then also and in the product market as Well. So if you. 34:23.49 Bryan Hoskins Given. 34:39.67 Bryan Hoskins And that's one of the big advantages of yeah and I would say that's also one of the big advantages to the Osu program because it ties in again, both bar protection and safety. We've had many alums that they start out going down one path. 34:42.57 firecodetech If you want variety. It's integrate trade. 34:57.89 Bryan Hoskins And then go down something completely different and then get us something else because of what opportunities come up and just having that Osu degree has opened up doors that a lot of the other people just didn't have available to them because of how special our program is and. All the different things that it touches on it really gives someone many different options for where they want their career to go. 35:27.66 firecodetech There's a great point yet fire protection has awesome career opportunity and I love that point also about that you said about the hands on nature of the experience at Oklahoma state because as a professional you know. Everything looks good on paper and so you can design something and think oh yeah, it looks great. It meets all the code criteria. Well it doesn't fit in the room so you need to think about what does this physically look like and so I think that's a very important distinction to make that. Physical and corporeal manifestation of these fire and life safety features are just as important as their code compliance. But so I wanted to break into a little bit of your expertise in. 36:12.79 Bryan Hoskins Um. 36:21.65 firecodetech Um, evacuation and sort of your research topics. But I know that you have a big interest in these areas and just I was reading some of your technical one of the. Papers or pieces of work that you put out I'm not as well versed in like how to analyze or read literature this produce in Academia but I was trying and doing some research for the show. But I'd love to talk about? um. 37:00.70 firecodetech Just evacuation and what you're researching now and get into your professional expertise. 37:04.22 Bryan Hoskins Okay, so I where I've taught everything but my and as far as again so that ging also I'll touch on that sort of Breadth of knowledge of my senior research project. Was on passive fire protection looking at the effect of missing spray applied material on a steel. Trust my master thesis was on oh characterizing the flow from a foam nozzle. Um, both of those were based on the K which projects are available which projects have funding sure I can do that. Um, but good experiences. But for the Ph D I knew I needed to do something that was going to be what I enjoy because if you're going to torture of yourself to go through that process of getting a Ph D which I've done it and I still think anyone who does it is partially Insane. Um. There's no other real rational explanation there? Um, but going through that I knew it had to be something that I would enjoy because if you're spending that many years that diving that deep on a topic. 38:02.89 firecodetech Um. 38:14.62 Bryan Hoskins If it's not something that you truly have a passion about it's not going to end up Well um, and my passion I knew was in the area of human behavior and fire. Um I said Psychology Oh in high school tying that in. 38:21.00 firecodetech Yeah. 38:31.93 Bryan Hoskins And also life safety. Why am I in this field. Ultimately when I think about it's to help people. Um, it's what I want to do and not that designing a sprinkler system isn't helping people. It is um because you're keeping them safe when there's a fire. But looking at that human aspect and understanding how people behave and respond um is something that was very much of a yes this is something I need to be doing with my career. This is the avenue I want to go down. Um, and so my. Matt for my ph d um I spent a few years going through some stairwell building evacuations. Um, basically going frame by frame tracking what people were doing other people. 39:27.57 Bryan Hoskins Again, going back to the insane part thought that I can sit there day after day going frame by frame getting over 10000 data points collected from this. Um, that's to say they wouldn't have done it themselves but gingling back to that hands on part of it. What I found most valuable about that. Um was going through that I got a much better understanding and feel for what was going on there because if all that you have is numbers k engineers give me numbers. Give me. Oh. Excel or Spss Or Saft or one of those and I can spit out stuff I can get answers. But in the research field. 1 of the things that a lot of us. Well everyone knows is you can get numbers. But. The job of the researcher is to understand what those numbers mean and to put them into practice. Um, and so one of the I mentioned this in my class a lot but with human behavior and fire pretty much everything that we discover and new is not anything that. 40:24.79 firecodetech Are a. 40:41.81 Bryan Hoskins Is ever the Wow How is that true I would never have expected that it's always see Yeah, that's how things are but yet we've been designing not with that for years and I'll get into some examples of that um tuna. Well. 40:47.98 firecodetech Here. 40:57.19 firecodetech Um, and. 41:00.39 Bryan Hoskins First of all I'll talk about this is predates me but 1 of the big myths in human behavior is myth of panic because there was actually for years and years and years was you don't tell people what's going on in a building when there's a fire because they'll start to panic. Panics irrational anti-social behavior. Basically someone starts standing there frozen in fear or shoving other people all the way and so on you can find lots of examples of this in hollywood clips. Um, actually one lab in by safety I play a bunch of clips from Tv and movies showing how. They portray evacuation of fire and then find clips on like Youtube of how it actually responds um in that. What do we see the fire alarm goes off if people get up because that's just a drill I can just ignore this if they get up. They're walking orderly patiently letting other people pass them even when we look at oh case studies of real fires same thing so there was no reason to keep that information from people. But that's what the industry thought was everyone's going to panic. Um. Or there's another example that again predates me. But um, this one's 1 found by Prof Brian that again is not surprising but early code development and requirements were based on everyone would just walk out the building and that's basically's a fluid particle and that's how it would be. 42:37.54 Bryan Hoskins He came up with this Oh when he studied the Runndo Park fire. This revolutionary thing parents will go in after their children if they're left behind and they can't find them oh because parents went back in for their children that burning building or other people went in to rescue friends and other things rather than just the back wing outside and. That was revolutionary at the time but yet no one's also shocked that wait a parent would go after their kid. It's more the wait. Why would anyone think otherwise but that's what the industry did at the time so in my dissertation One of the big findings I had there. Um that has. 43:06.59 firecodetech Um, well. 43:15.64 Bryan Hoskins Changed how oh we approach some things is since I said it's looking at people back wing downstairs when you walk downstairs. You don't go straight make a ninety degree return go across make a ninety degree turn and go down. It's more of an arc a semicircle type shape around the landing I even remember talk to my advisor about this and it see are you sure so then pull up the videos. Yep and when I bring it up in class now I'm yet to find it tune of no no I walk down and make those sharp angles. Okay, well let me phrase it I've then had students when we did things onstairs walk that way simply to prove a point but it doesn't happen in real life and so that's thing a lot of this st in human behavior and fire is just pointing that out. Um, also say 1 thing I've done a number of. Talks and talk about human behavior and fire is mentioned okay, imagine the scenario you are sitting in an airport a major metropolitan airport. One of those hub airports and the fire alarm goes off oh what are you going to do. And then play a video that's on Youtube of a fire at one of the major hub airports and was it show and you can pull this up yourself from multiple different airports multiple different places. Other things was it show. Everyone's sitting there. Oh no, 1 ne's trying to get back through security. 44:49.42 Bryan Hoskins Um, to have to cross back through and every time I've talked to people is that what you expect all but well all, but basically 1 time have I had people say yeah, that's what I expected. The 1 time was talking to a bunch of politicians. And they were shocked that not everyone listened to the directions. Um I guess politicians have a different perspective on things but everyone else is the yeah that doesn't surprise me. That's what I'm used to That's why I expect the announcement comes on and people ignore it. And so that then gets into and I've done research in this area as well. Not just the movement but also looking at how do we effectively get information to people what is needed to get them to go from that just sitting there to actually starting to evacuate and so. How is it that the notification process works getting time back into that human behavior and fire area. 45:52.91 firecodetech Yeah,, That's very interesting I Definitely think Politicians have a different view of reality. But that's ah off topic. Um, that's but ah, another thing I was just thinking about and I didn it to. Provide this before this might be I don't know if you'll have an answer for this but I had a question about like performance based design versus a more prescriptive design and I know that the answer is probably it depends. But. 46:28.50 Bryan Hoskins Nothing. 46:30.60 firecodetech If you could give any insight to which one of these methods have greater allowances for life safety or if there is a break even point in building size or complexity where that might be. 46:49.39 Bryan Hoskins So you're right? The answer is it depends. Um, it's actually it's difficult in that I don't think that there is a specific point of. 46:51.26 firecodetech That's a difficult. 47:02.92 Bryan Hoskins Okay, when you get to this may square foot this many dollar figure. Whatever metric of sort of a cut and dry line. Um, because for example, New Zealand at one point went to everything had to be performance based and that did not work so well. 47:21.98 Bryan Hoskins Um, but everything being prescriptive does not work. Well either. And really if we look at and I talk about this in life safety. So this is not really too far with stretch for a question I so of already know my answer in advance and actually talking about this. Just. Yesterday in class when we look at the prescriptive code. The prescriptive code is in many ways a performance base code and hear me out on this when we look at the prescriptive code. Where do numbers like maximum travel distance come from number of exits come from. Well it's based on golden objectives that could set so nfpa 1 one for example, is anyone not into most fire shall be kept safe long enough to evacuate relocate. Um, or defend in place and so you can see that similarity to okay and you're doing performance space design you have to come up with your goals and objectives and that's very easily one that's going to be there anyone not into with fire shall be kept safe. 48:35.34 Bryan Hoskins And then if we look at the code how they okay theoretically where did numbers like travel distance. Oh come from. Well it's based on a typical building. We'll have this type of fuel loading in it and that's why it's different for chakmancy in part. Um, so here's the expected fuel loading here's the expected ceiling height. Oh therefore the time until the smoke layer descends to where people are at should be about this much time we know the speed people walk at put in a safety factor there. And so with this setup everyone will be out safely before the fire becomes too big now I say theoretical. That's where it comes from because I think most of its numbers actually came from people at a conference room 1 time going. Okay, we need to come up with a number. Okay, that 1 looks good. Let's see there. Um, but. In theory where it comes from its at so like the ockment load factors where do they come from going out studying a building counting the number of people getting the dimensions and adapting it for that. So the prescriptive code. It's very good. For a building that's similar to that assumed building and many of our buildings are because you're dealing with okay seven foot 6 to ten foot ceiling heights not too much different. The commodities in them are gonna be about the same people in them. We can start to come up with those. 49:56.10 firecodetech Um, and. 50:03.47 firecodetech Naning. 50:09.32 Bryan Hoskins Methods to approximate what it's going to be and as far as the having the committee then set what the minimum standard is saves a lot of time and effort because if every project has to be performance based.. That's a significant time investment. Um, for all the stakeholders involved and for a simple 3 story office building where they're building 50 of them in the town type of thing. Why go through each one of those projects and have to do that when the prescriptive code works very well for that. It saves time effort money. So for a simple building that's sort of meeting what that stereotypical building sort of underlying the prescriptive descriptive codes is just do prescriptive but a number of the numbers in the prescriptive code. 51:03.20 firecodetech Um, appreciate that. 51:07.94 Bryan Hoskins And mentioned in class yesterday they're arbitrary what I mean by that is let's say I have 500 people in a room I can have two doors out of there and it's perfectly acceptable by code perfectly safe I put in 1 more person. 51:16.60 firecodetech Um, yeah. 51:25.42 Bryan Hoskins Point two percent change in the occupant load that one person I now have to put in a third exit door have I really changed the safety in that building by changing the augment load by 0.2% that I now have to. Put in a third door. No 501 peoples meet just as safe as five hundred with two exits there's not any study date or anything 500 is round number and that's the number they got picked now I'm not saying that 500 bad number I'm saying it's an arbitrary number and that's the advantage to performance space design on 1 project that I worked on. Um while at europe there was a large casino. Um, that was being proposed to be built and to make it work. 52:05.63 firecodetech Yeah. 52:21.51 Bryan Hoskins They're gonna have to have some like 12 or 13 stairs to meet travel distance requirements scattered throughout that floor. The owner did not like that idea why for security reasons putting in a lot of stair shafts makes dead spaces and security becomes a problem also just the. Um, beyond that they wanted there so you can look across the room and see the person winning way over there. Um, so that way you felt like you could be winning at your table so they wanted that more open area and travel distance is meaningful for a normal building. 52:43.55 firecodetech My kids. 52:58.79 Bryan Hoskins But let's think about against one of those major Las Vegas casino type places you have a huge floor plan. So how long is it going to take the smoke to descend all the way down to where the people are at and the answer was a very long time I went to the fire modeling to. Determine what it was but it was in excess of 20 minutes um and so then if we can get everyone out of there by just putting in I think we had doing so like 4 5 6 stairs at the different outside of the building. It gets the owner what they want. 53:37.15 Bryan Hoskins And we're gonna get everyone out of that building safe if there's a fire I have no doubt about that in my mind. Um, why because that building's not a typical building the wide open floor plan made it different and ultimately what's the goal of the fire protection Community. Keep people safe in the event of a fire. So As long as we can keep people safe in the event of a fire then well that's what matters and so that's what we need to be able to show and so and why prohibit the owner from doing something. If. It's going to be safe to do it and so that's the advantage performance base design when the uniqueness of the architecture or materials being used will still lead to the same level of safety as the base code provides. Then it should be our job as practicing engineers in the field of life safety Fire protection. Um, but to make sure that those building owners can do the things that they want to do can use their buildings the way they want to do but doing it in a safe way. And that's what performance spaces design and allows us to do and so I'm not gonna I say I'm not go set a specific dollar figure or a square footage or anything else. But if the prescriptive code does not meet the owner's desires then the performance based design becomes an option. 55:12.44 Bryan Hoskins To be able to allow them to do what it is. They want to do and if they just want to go prescriptive because that's goingnna be a less expensive option. That's their choice. Um, but if or if they have just set in a more building and the prescriptive code works fine then great. Shown that it's safe enough. But for those unique designs for those buildings where they want to do something a little bit different then that's our job to make it so where they can accomplish their goals but do it in a way that's safe. 55:34.36 firecodetech Um, and. 55:48.11 firecodetech I Appreciate that. That's a perspective on performance based design I don't think I've heard before I don't have as much experience with it. But I appreciate that sentiment In. You know how that discretion call and really understanding the factors of what safety level that the prescriptive code provides and matching that calculated or performance-based design methods is very interesting but. 56:25.41 firecodetech Anyways, well I just want to wrap things up and say thank you for talking Brian I could talk to you for another 2 hours probably you've been just a a walt of knowledge on and we didn't even get to speak about your professional society involvement more and. Your thoughts on the industry and where things are going but I want to be mindful of what you got planned today and maybe we can have you on that in the future again to cover some of those topics. 56:51.17 Bryan Hoskins Absolutely be happy to. It's great talking to and again you bring on a professor I get paid to talk for a living so always enjoy talking about the industry of the field and doing everything we can to help promote it continues to that growth. 57:08.57 firecodetech Definitely well I appreciate it. You make it easy on me which I enjoy of course but alrighty we'll we'll wrap it up. 57:12.10 Bryan Hoskins Thank you.  

How to start a podcast and lessons learned. This presentation aims to discuss how to start a podcast, and takeaways from three years of podcast production about fire and life safety. A brief outline of the presentation is as follows: • Background journey as an engineer • Lessons learned and advice for those interested • Technology, equipment, and skills needed to start a podcast • Podcast clips that illustrate value • Resources for professionals   Resources Podcast  https://firecodetech.com/45-solocast-fire-and-life-safety-resources Yeti Mic  https://www.amazon.com/Recording-Streaming-Patterns-HeadphoneAdjustable/dp/B01LY6Z2M6/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=27SBQVW1FSKTF&keywords=yeti+microphone&qid =1679153805&sprefix=yeti+microphone%2Caps%2C120&sr=8-1- spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzMzAzT1MzR1VMNjNGJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEw ODE0NzY2NVhZNFZTOEk1ODVPJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAyMjM2OTIxOEVOTEtJMDVaSEY3JndpZGdld E5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ== Shure:  https://www.amazon.com/SM7B-Microphone-Cloud-MicrophonesCloudlifter/dp/B07QV3XVF5/ref=sr_1_3?crid=5J1UYOQJLTIX&keywords=shure+smb7&qid=1679153002 &sprefix=shure+smb7%2Caps%2C122&sr=8-3&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.ac2169a1-b668-44b9-8bd0- 5ec63b24bcb5 Mixer  https://www.amazon.com/Mackie-Mix-Mix8-8-ChannelMixer/dp/B00ND1KGEI/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2S8SOJ808PIP9&keywords=audio%2Bmixer%2Bmix%2B8&qid= 1679153700&s=musical-instruments&sprefix=audio%2Bmixer%2Bmix%2B8%2Cmi%2C107&sr=1- 5&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.18ed3cb5-28d5-4975-8bc7-93deae8f9840&th=1 Webcam  amazon.com/Logitech-C922x-Pro-StreamWebcam/dp/B01LXCDPPK/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1YTKVRIV54Y6E&keywords=webcam&qid=1679154971&spr efix=webcam%2Caps%2C112&sr=8-3  Nice Camera  https://www.amazon.com/Sony-Full-Frame-Mirrorless-Interchangeable-LensILCE7M3/dp/B07B43WPVK/ref=sr_1_4?crid=2OVG4L6ZEWHQC&keywords=sony+camera+a7&qid=1679 155105&sprefix=sony+camera+a7%2Caps%2C108&sr=8-4 Lights  https://www.amazon.com/Equipment-Photography-Continuous-ReflectorsPortraits/dp/B085973RRH/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2J9CYLAUIIYQ6&keywords=podcast+lights&qid=167915578 8&sprefix=podcast+lights%2Caps%2C102&sr=8-1&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.18ed3cb5-28d5-4975- 8bc7-93deae8f9840 More Lights  https://www.amazon.com/Adjustable-Obeamiu-Lighting-CollectionPhotography/dp/B08DFMFQJ6/ref=sr_1_10?crid=3V5M7Y2DZ10X3&keywords=lights+podcast&qid=167 9352239&sprefix=lights+podcas%2Caps%2C120&sr=8-1

In this podcast episode, we hear from retired firefighter Todd LeDuc as he shares important mental health resources for fire service members. Join us as we discuss the dangers of toxic exposure for firefighters and the importance of regular health screenings and preventative measures.   Todd's Book https://bit.ly/3z9nOsj Vector Solutions Courses https://bit.ly/3lCITIF

From earthquakes to wildfires, natural disasters can have a profound impact on the world around us. In this episode, we speak with researcher Sandra Vaiciulyte, who has dedicated her career to understanding these events and their impact on communities. She has also been a key figure in the establishment of SFPE Mexico, an organization aimed at promoting fire safety and education in over 15 countries. Join us in this episode as we learn more about Sandra's work and her efforts to make the world a safer place.   SFPE Mexico:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/sfpe-mexico-chapter/

Melinda Amador is a chemical engineer with profesional expertise in hazardous materials, consulting, and codes and standards. Episode 66 details topics like use and risk profiles, management of change, NFPA 420. Don't miss out on Melinda's advice for dealing with those pesky hazardous materials inventory statements.    How did you find fire and life safety 0:00 Tell the listeners a bit more about your professional rolls? 3:45 Speak to NFPA 420 and the resources the people can find in the standard 8:10 Describe how the lifecycle of the hazardous materials plays a role in protection 17:00 What kind of process do you follow for determining protection for hazardous materials 24:00 Would you speak to your involvement in the NFPA standards creation? 33:30 What resources would you recommend to professionals in regards to hazardous materials? 42:00 What trends do you see in the industry? 49:00   Perry's Checmical Engineering Handbook https://www.amazon.com/Perrys-Chemical-Engineers-Handbook-Eighth/dp/0071422943

Kelsey joins us again to give a career update and speak to her endeavors as an entrepreneur in life safety. Tune in to hear an update about Kilo Lima Code Community,  life safety consulting, and many big ideas on content creation for fire safety!

Warehouse fires have been a trending topic in 2022. Tune into this episode to hear about ignition sources for warehouse fires, hazards, and a historic fire recap. 

Episode 64 of Fire Code Tech covers a conversation with Matt King on a variety of topics pertaining to his career in the AEC industry. Matt gives insight from his early career learning curve and offers advice for other professionals looking to stay sharp.    American Society of Safety Professionals https://www.assp.org/  

Freeze protection is always a challenge in fire sprinkler coverage. Dry pipe systems are a very common means of sprinkler protection for spaces that are not heated. This episode seeks to explore codes, standards, system components, definitions, advantages, and the many disadvantages of dry pipe systems. 

Jeff Moore is a FPE with 40+ years of experience in fire and life safety. Historic fires, fire safety publications, and career lessons learned are all discussed on this interview episode.     Industrial Fire Contro Concepts:  https://www.amazon.com/Industrial-Fire-Control-Concepts-Protection-dp-1737962209/dp/1737962209/ref=mt_other?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=   51 Conversations with the Wise Old Fire Protection Engineer:  https://www.amazon.com/Conversations-Wise-Fire-Protection-Engineer/dp/1737962292/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1T0VUHI7YWOI4&keywords=wise+old+fire+protection&qid=1665358522&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIwLjk3IiwicXNhIjoiMC4wMCIsInFzcCI6IjAuMDAifQ%3D%3D&s=books&sprefix=wise+old+fire+protection%2Cstripbooks%2C100&sr=1-1     Firemark Consulting:  http://firemarkconsulting.com/    

Professional certifcations show baseline competence, increase compenation, and improve career opportunity. Episode 46 gives 10 tips for how to pass your next exam.    Links to other Podcasts on FE and PE Prep Solocast 10 FE and PE Prep https://firecodetech.com/10-solocast-fundamentals-of-engineering-and-principles-and-practice-of-engineering-exam Chris Campbell PE Prep https://firecodetech.com/34-fpe-exam-preparation-and-consulting-with-chris-campbell Joe Meyer PE Prep https://firecodetech.com/27-fire-protection-engineering-exam-and-career-insights-with-joe-meyerr   Be knowledgeable about the test material. Do as many practice problems as you possibly can. Spend your study hours in correspondence to the weighted amounts on the exam Take Timed tests Consider taking a prep course. Invest in yourself and add a sense of urgency to your test. Plan to study. Understand how to navigate the reference material Focus on rest and don't hard the day before or of the test Create or Find a community to study with. Look up the specific engineering certification board laws for the state that you ware looking to get registered in.

Michael is a fire and life safety profesional from Costa Rica. He has a formal education in fire and life safety from the university of Costa Rica and six plus years of experience. This episode is an inspiring story, with great tips and takeaways.       

This episode is dedicated to all the times I asked professionals what their favorite resources are. Here is my attempt to give back some of what I have learned over the last two plus years of producing the podcast.      SFPE https://www.sfpe.org/home Local and National Chapter, Local chapter resources FPE Extra https://www.sfpe.org/publications/fpemagazine/fpeextra Quarterly Magazine https://www.sfpe.org/publications/fpemagazine Online LinkedIn esc community NFPA     https://www.nfpa.org/ Free access to codes and standards https://bit.ly/2ZjauBe Online Courses https://www.nfpa.org/OnlineLearning Webinars https://www.nfpa.org/Training-and-Events/By-type/Webinars Free Resources https://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Research The NFPA Podcast: https://bit.ly/3RMxqAV Codes and Standards Development Quarterly Magazine https://www.nfpa.org/journal International Code Council https://www.iccsafe.org/ Free Access to Codes https://codes.iccsafe.org/ Webinars Podcast https://bit.ly/3S8Jxbc    Codes Development Magazine https://www.iccsafe.org/building-safety-journal/ Joe Meyer https://www.meyerfire.com/ Free Resources https://www.meyerfire.com/blog/flow-test-reports-and-the-n185-supply-graph Forum for question https://www.meyerfire.com/daily Blog https://www.meyerfire.com/blog/a-new-blog-format PE Prep course https://www.meyerfire.com/pe-exam.html Paid for classes https://www.meyerfire.com/university-welcome.html Free Tools https://bit.ly/3QV5qJY Chris Campbell https://www.buildingcode.blog/ Free Resources PE Prep Course Podcasts I like The Fire Science Show https://www.firescienceshow.com/ Drew Slocum https://fire-protection-podcast.simplecast.com/ Fire Sprinkler Podcast https://www.firesprinklerpodcast.com/podcast STI the burn https://bit.ly/3Lpv2gX ICC Pulse https://bit.ly/3S8Jxbc    NFPA Link https://bit.ly/3eZLCrQ Kilo Lima Code https://kilolimacode.com/ Paul Inferrera https://cfcc.edu/job-training/construction-careers/fire-alarm-systems-training/ Performance Based Fire Protection Engineering https://www.pbfpe.com/ Online Tools Calculator AC Fire Pump https://bit.ly/3LDle3n Superior Tank https://superiortank.com/tools/lfb/ Revit Tools Viking https://digital.vikingcorp.com/tools-revit PyRevit https://github.com/eirannejad/pyRevit/releases DiRoots https://diroots.com/ Blogs / Online Magazines Consulting and Specifying Engineer https://www.csemag.com/ Fire Alarms Online http://www.firealarmsonline.com/p/occupancy-fa-requirements.html Reddit Sub Communities https://www.reddit.com/r/firePE/ https://www.reddit.com/r/FireAlarm/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Firefighting/ Udemy https://www.udemy.com/ Libby App https://www.overdrive.com/apps/libby FreeCodeCamp https://www.freecodecamp.org/learn Tick Tick https://ticktick.com/#q/all/today/5ff73b1893561d699eeb3c73 ASPE https://www.aspe.org/ Magazine with fire and life safety topics Membership meetings Resources for life safety professionals ASHRAE https://www.ashrae.org/ Weather Data for freeze protection Design guides for smoke control NICET https://www.nicet.org/ Certification AFAA https://www.afaa.org/ Paid for classes Membership with benefits Webinars AFSA https://afsa.org/ Free Magazine https://www.sprinklerage.com/ Paid for classes Membership with benefits NFSA https://nfsa.org/ Paid for classes Tech Tuesdays Membership with benefits

Code consulting, fire protection marketing, performance based design, this interview is jam packed! Tune in to hear from a consulting engineer about his career journey, interships, formal schooling in fire protection and much more. 

Hello All welcome to episode 44 of Fire Code Tech. In this episode we are revisiting Sprinkler Basics. Episode 44 seeks to address a portion chapter 4 in NFPA 13 pertaining to the Owner's Certificate. The Owner's certificate is an important tool for documenting design information. Lets get into the show. In the episode we talk about Chapter 4 and how its changed, the owner's certificate and its purpose, and examples of how to document this information.   Transcription:  [00:00:00] Hello. Welcome to the solo cast of fire code tech in these episodes. It's just gonna be me, your host, Gus Gagliardi. There's gonna be a range of topics, but I'm gonna talk about specific technologies, installation, standards, codes, and how they work as well as some other interesting topics that don't neatly fit inside of the context of a normal interview. Hello, welcome to episode 44 fire code tech. In this episode, we are. Visiting again, sprinkler basics, episode 44, seeks to address a portion of chapter four of NFP. 13 more specifically, we're talking about the owner certificate. The owner certificate is an important tool for documenting design information. Let's get to the show. Chapter four is structured in NFPA 13, very [00:01:00] similarly to how it is structured in other NFPA standards. It's reorganization in the 2019 edition of the standard, realigned it to be more in standard convention with N FPA documents, having an abundance of general criteria and information about fire sprinkler systems. This episode is based off of the 2022. Chapter four used to be about 10 short sections of standard language in earlier additions. That's the 2016 and before, but now it is very robust and includes some of the low piled and miscellaneous storage criteria and the beginnings of hazard determin. For the purposes of this episode, we are just going to get into the first couple sections of chapter four and also talk heavily about the owner certificate. Just for [00:02:00] recap information, NFPA 13 is titled the standard for the installation of sprinkler systems. This name is very important because a standard and an installation standard is much different from a code. A code will tell you when it is appropriate to install a system and an installation standard will give you the design and layout criteria for the actual means and methods of installing a system. If you're looking for information for how to determine when a sprinkler system is required in FBA, 13 is not the document for. in a fully sprinkler building. There are very few areas in which you can omit sprinkler protection. I bring this up, cuz this is a common misconception building owners or architects will frequently ask to omit sprinklers from an area. Yes, there [00:03:00] are situations which are explicitly spelled out in N F P eight 13, in which you can omit sprinklers more often than not a space is required by default to have sprinklers in every space that the standard describes. The term fully sprinkler, which you will see many times throughout the codes and standards is one that buys certain allowances in other areas of fire and life safety. There are concessions in NFP, 1 0 1 and the international building code for other life safety features like travel distances, occupant loads, building height, interior, finish, and building area. This means that if you have a building that is fully sprinkled, you can have some additional height area, travel distances, higher occupant loads, and more combustible interior finishes. Generally speaking, if you're looking for areas in [00:04:00] which you might be able to emit sprinklers in a fully sprinkler building, then you should look into chapter nine of NFPA, 2022. Also if adding sprinklers to a space would bring the occupants in the building more danger than the safety, it would allow them by having the sprinklers, you may be in a situation in which you can't omit sprinklers. The instance in which I could think of that fits this case is aluminum dust grinding. You can't put water on an aluminum dust fire. It can cause an. So adding sprinklers to a space that has aluminum dust grinding may be a situation that would be fire safety prohibitive. All right. So we talked about a couple of the first points of information in chapter four. Now we're going to move on to the owner certificate portion of chapter four. So I wanna start out by reading the [00:05:00] code section. Owner certificate starts at 4.2 in NFP, 13, 20 22. It states the owner of a building structure where the fire sprinkler system is going to be installed or their authorized agent shall provide this sprinkler system installer with the following information prior to the layout and detailing of the fire sprinkler. it says C figure a point 28.1 point parenthesis B. So what this says to me is the owner or the representative of the owner needs to provide a certain base level of information about the building, the use in the occupancy, in order for the, either the fire protection engineer or the fire suppression contractor to design the. Then this section goes on to say [00:06:00] has a list of five things that you need to provide in this owner information certificate. Number one intended use of the building, including materials within the building and maximum height of any storage. and we're gonna unpack all these in just a moment, but I just wanted to read all these to get 'em in your mind. Number two, a preliminary plan of the building structure, along with the design concepts necessary to perform the layout in detail for the sprinkler system. Number three, water supply information as identified in 5.2 point. number four, any special knowledge of the water supply, including known environmental conditions that might be responsible for corrosion, including microbiologically influenced corrosion make. So this is a big deal [00:07:00] for the owner and the designer. This also goes back to it's the owner's responsibility to. Install and design the correct sprinkler system. So there's a lot of onus for the person who owns the building and sprinkler system to get this process. Right. But also as a design professional, you have to, uh, help the owner understand these criteria and the different terminology involved. Okay. Number one intended use of the building, including materials within the building and the maximum height of any storage use and occupancy are important pieces of information for hazard determination, the owner's information certificate often abbreviated to the owner certificate. Is a important document, not to comprehensively review [00:08:00] all the pieces of information you would need to review in order to properly design the system. But to give you a broad overview of the factors that generally only the owner can provide. This first section talks about storage because storage is a extremely complicated subject and obtaining the furniture, configuration, the storage height, the commodity, the commodity classification, all these bear significant impact to water supply, and can sometimes be so severe of a hazard that you might not be able to provide a water supply for a. With storage in certain configurations, which might be essential to the process or use that the building owner wants to provide. Number two is a preliminary plan of the [00:09:00] building or structure along with the design concepts necessary to perform the layout in more detail for the fire sprinkler system. This layout will typically come from an architect or a structural. this is the room layout or the structure layout in order to hang in brace, piping and or layout and space. Sprinkler heads. Number three is water supply. Hey, before we talk about water supply information for the owner certificate, I wanted to ask if you're enjoying the show, please give a rate review and subscribe to the podcast. It really helps out the show. And that way you'll be sure to never miss an. by the way, sprinkler basics episode one is the sixth solo cast that we ever did. And if you want to go back and listen to that episode, I made sure not to cover any of the same topics in this episode, but there is a crossover in [00:10:00] this portion of the owner's information certificate. So the definition of a sprinkler system is, is one that includes water supply in the definit. So you need to know the pressure and flow information for the water supply. In order to design the sprinkler system, oftentimes owners with campuses, if buildings will have this information from either maintenance or from other design projects at their campus, water supply is a common issue that is not addressed early enough in the design process. Flow tests have to be performed within one year of the hydraulic design of a sprinkler. Number four, any special knowledge of the water supply, including known environmental conditions that might be responsible for corrosion, including microbiologically influenced corrosion, Mick. So M is a topic that [00:11:00] affects. Internal piping obstructions and corrosion, pinhole leaks of piping and water main systems. Mick is not so common. There are ways in which you can test for the different types of M there are, uh, wide variety of different bacterial, uh, induced corrosions. I chose to add a point in here about corrosion and how corrosion can impact the design of a sprinkler system in a different instance, the condition of corrosion in which I see more commonly in sprinkler design is where you have a corrosive atmosphere in one of the spaces in which you're designing sprinkler systems. So if you have a pool or say a very. Uh, corrosive industrial process, such as a plating facility, you might need to address [00:12:00] the piping equipment and sprinkler heads within your space in order to greatly increase the lifespan of your sprinkler system. pools are notorious for overly corroding heads. You can take a look up if you're in an auditorium or a pool a lot of times, and see active pieces of corrosion on sprinkler heads. Um, I could probably do a whole episode about, um, material choices for corrosions, but something to be aware of. Number five. Whether seismic protection is required in applicable short period response parameter, the seismic design category of the project has significant impact on a variety of design features of sprinkler systems. The more fire and life safety systems you have say you have a fire. Or a Firewater storage tank in [00:13:00] combination with your fire sprinkler system, the more of an impact that seismic design category has seismic design category is calculated by the structural engineer based on. A geotechnical report. A common misconception is that you can tell seismic design category by looking at a map that indicates area of seismic activities. This is not the case. The owner's information certificate is used as a collaboration tool between the sprinkler designer or the fire protection engineer and the owner. This tool can be used on the design side of the process or on the installation side of the process. So a engineer can use this owner certificate to provide the design documents or [00:14:00] contract documents in order to solicit competitive bids or the. Contractor can use the owner's information certificate in order to qualify some of their design choices for the facility. If you want to get a good look at what this certificate looks like or a nice template to use for your next project, take a look at annex material, a point 28.1 parenthesis. Typical preliminary, planned. so the owner's information certificate is not the general information signage or the hydraulic placard information that you would oftentimes see at the riser. This is a different piece of. Information and kind of tool the hydraulic placard and general [00:15:00] information signage are usually produced by the contractor in order to establish what criteria this system has been designed to, not as a collaboration or communication tool, like the owner's information certificate. So go take a look at the typical preliminary plan or the example of the owner's information certificate in the annex material of N F P 8 13 20 22. Cause I'm gonna use it as kind of a visual aid for the next portion of our discussion. This certificate lays out information like construction type name, address, and a description. You say occupancy of the building. Next it moves on into special occupancy types that trigger fire and life safety requirements. Remember that this list is [00:16:00] not meant to be all inclusive. This is a. High level checklist in order to trigger the appropriate design professional's knowledge of other hazards and criteria that are applicable when these different, special occupancies are in use. some of the occupancies listed. If you're not taking a look at this document, are aircraft hanger, Marine terminal, pier, or Wharf, airport terminal, power plant or water cooling tower. Also the owner's information certificate example in the annex material, F N F P 13 references, certain hazardous materials that can be stored such as flammables and combustibles compressed or LPG cylinders, [00:17:00] liquified gas. Also again, there is really great information. What different storage thresholds, you should be keeping an eye out for your preliminary project planning processes like high piled storage Heights or high hazard storage Heights. Remember that the reason why this information is here. Is because if you have a aircraft hanger and you are expecting an office building, you may be incurring project costs or complications that have the ability to end a project. Yes. That is a possibility you encounter a water supply for your fire protection subsystem. That is. High in pressure and flow that you need a series of fire pumps and [00:18:00] water storage tanks that the owner never anticipated to buy. Obviously that is an extreme example and a gross oversimplification, but wanted to give you an idea of the intention and importance. Planning your fire and life safety design as early as possible. That's gonna do it for this episode to recap on what we talked about. We discussed the preliminary portions of chapter four and we took a deep dive into the owner's certifi. after the owner certificate, we talked about the visual aid in the NX material of N F P a 13 and the intention and use of this document as a collaboration and communication tool [00:19:00] in the early stages of design and or layout of a sprinkler system. Hope you enjoyed the episode and we'll see you next. thanks for listening. Everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.

This episode is a discussion about Fire Hydrants! Solocast 43 details codes, standards, and other criteria surrounding fire hydrants. Also we discuss hydrant components and the different types of fire hydrants that are common.    Transcription: Speaker Gus [00:00:00] Hello. Welcome to the solo cast of fire code tech in these episodes. It's just gonna be me, your host, Gus Gagliardi. There's gonna be a range of topics, but I'm gonna talk about specific technologies, installation, standards, codes, and how they work as well as some other interesting topics that don't neatly fit inside of the context of a normal I. Hello. All welcome to episode 43 of fire code tech. In this episode, we're talking about fire hydrants. Yes. I believe fire hydrants is a great topic for a solo cast because like many things that reside in the intersection in between two engineering disciplines, oftentimes they are forgotten or poorly designed. So I'm talking about the fact that fire hydrants, although they are usually designed. [00:01:00] Located on the civil drawings have impact to fire protection features for the fire and life safety systems. So in these little nooks and crannies between disciplines, oftentimes we can find that projects either forget or, or neglect to give proper attention to these pieces of. So, if you're still wondering, if you wanna listen to this episode, we're going to talk about codes, standards, and other criteria pertaining to fire hydrants. We're going to discuss the system architecture and component pieces of fire hydrants and the piping networks that they are attached to. And also we're gonna get into some key definitions for what a fire hydrant is and the different types of fire hydrant. I wanted to take a moment and talk about the codes and standards up at the front of this episode. The goal of this episode is not to discuss the codes [00:02:00] and standards. I really wanted to just discuss some entry level topics. To establish what a fire hydrant is and some other parts and, and pieces of this piece of fire and life safety equipment. But as a forward for the people who may have been listening to hear about more criteria or codes and standards around this subject, I'll start off with the codes of standards surrounding fire hydrants. If you're working in the us and you're using the international family of codes, you can look in the international fire code for additional code excerpts for the requirements for fire hydrants. The section specifically in the international fire code 2021 edition is 5 0 7 0.5 0.5. This section is titled fire hydrant systems, and it is not very long. If you want to go brush up on these codes before you design a project, it'd probably be a pretty good idea. As the codes are always [00:03:00] a magnificent place to start to make sure that you are at the very minimum, getting the code required features that are in place in your project. Second, let's talk about in the standards portion of the codes and standards discussion, where would you go to find out more criteria about fire hydrants? One place you could look would be N FPA 24, which is titled as standard for the installation of private fire mains and app. The chapter in specific where you can find information about fire hydrants is chapter seven. Moving forward to the inspection, testing and maintenance criteria for fire hydrants. If you want to find this sort of information, go ahead and go look in N FPA 25, strangely enough. It, this is also in chapter seven, but the name of the chapter is not fire hydrants. Like it is in, in FPA 24. It is private fire service mains. [00:04:00] okay. Just for a quick recap, we talked about the code section in the international fire code. We talked about the installation standard, which is N FPA 24. And then we talked about where you could find the ins the inspection testing and maintenance criteria, which is an FPA 25 as an additional point about criteria. There is an appendix and fire code, which is appendix C. And this appendix is named fire hydrant, locations and distribution. Just a note on appendix material. You may know, but just worth saying in this discussion that appendix material is not always adopted. So you have to check your specific jurisdictional criteria to see if this appendix material is adopted and pertinent to the project that you're working on. But it's good to know about the criteria into this appendix for best engineering practices. [00:05:00] Okay, moving on. I wanna talk about the definitions portion of this solo cast. So what is a fire hydrant? Maybe I should have put that first, but I'm gonna leave it here. Anyways. What is a fire hydrant? Let's talk about the definitions, which can be found in N F P a 24. Hydrant can be found in the NFPA 24 chapter three. And it is defined as an exterior valved connection to a water supply system that provides host connections. So my 2 cents about this is that hydrants come in different colors, and sometimes they can be indication of different factors for the hydrant or for the facility, whether it be private or public. Some of these factors may include how much water supply is available from the hydrant the water supply source in which the hydrant is fed from. And also it can just be a coloring or designation system for the facilities or base criteria. So there are two big, main types of hydrants. [00:06:00] One is a wet barrel, and one is a dry barrel. I'm gonna talk about the definitions for both of these. Let's start off with dry barrel. Dry barrel hydrant is described in 3.4 0.1 0.1. And it states a type of hydrant with the main control valve below the frost line between the foot piece and the barrel dry barrel is the more common of the two hydrant types. This is gonna be found anywhere in which you would normally have freezing conditions throughout the year. So in the majority of the us, this is what you're gonna find is dry barrel hydrants. Well, I bet you can guess what the next definition I'm gonna cover is that's right. It's wet barrel. And so this definition is 3.4 0.1 0.6, and it is stated as a type of hydrant that is intended for use where there is no danger of freezing weather and where [00:07:00] each outlet is protected with a valve and an outlet. My piece of information on this we barrel definition would be that these. Hydrants are only common in very select pieces of the us think California and Florida in. ranges where the weather and or climate is exceedingly temperate or tropical almost. And so outside of the us, think of the Caribbean or other geographies that are near the equator, moving on, let's talk about the different component pieces of a typical fire hyd. So we're gonna start off talking about the actual hydrant and then we will also discuss the piping and involving that leads up to the hydrant. So for a brief overview, before we dive into those different pieces, the summary of the pieces are the hydrant body. The stem nut or the operating portion of the [00:08:00] hydrant, the bonnet, the side outlet, the pumper outlet and the base flange. Let's go from the top of the hydrant down to the base flange into the first piece we're gonna talk about is the operating stem and. This piece is on the top of the hydrant and it is how you open and close the fire hydrant. You can use a hydrant wrench to do this operat. Next piece we're gonna talk about is the bonnet of the fire hydrant. Think of this as the round domed piece at the top of the fire hydrant, of course, there are some types of fire hydrants that will have different configuration that are not domed, but the top component of the fire hydrant, sometimes the hyd. Cap or bonnet can be a different color than the body of the fire hydrant. So it's good to note these details. If you are doing a survey of fire [00:09:00] hydrant, or you are doing a flow test and you want to provide documentation of the hydrant in which you are activating, first outlet we are gonna talk about is the side. So there is the pumper outlet and the side outlet. The side outlet is one of the two outlets that are usually two and a half inches, two and a half inches is the standard hose size connection. Another standard hose size connection is an inch and a half. The other connection is the pumper outlet. This outlet is usually four inches and you can hook the larger lines up to this outlet. I guess that makes sense. Since it's four over two and a half and one and a half, but you can get a much larger volume of water out of the pumper outlet, the flan or the base flan for the hydrant connects the hydrant to [00:10:00] the piping. That extends all the way down to the elbow at the bottom of the hydrant stem only other component we didn't talk about for the hydrant in the actual, within the hydrant is the stem and the stem is what raises and lowers the plunger light device to allow the water into a dry hydrant. That is what operates when you are turning the stem and nut at the top of the top of the hyd. Let's talk about the components that lead up to the hydrant and some of the piping and valving for a brief recap, we talked about the stem and nut, the bonnet, the side outlet, the pumper outlet and the base flan, as well as the stem within the hydrant. And now moving forward, we're going to talk about [00:11:00] the. Gravel and drain basin, the thrust block, the control valve, and what the terms, lateral or branch line and service main or main or fire main mean in the context of a fire hydrant. First up is gravel and drain basin. This is the area in which the dry barrel hydrogen drains into the ground. Interesting note, you can put your hand up to the side of the side outlet. If you have all the other outlets with their cap on them and feel the suction from the hydrant drain. If you've done a flow test and you are waiting for the hydrant to drain or verifying that the hydrant will drain. That's a good trick to know thrust block is a restraint or a restriction of the hydrant, and there is a calculation for how to [00:12:00] determine the size of the thrust block. So that is something to consider. There are specific construction details for how these have to be built as well, the compaction and the aggregate and the concrete around the thrust block so that the pipe is restrained and supported correctly. Control valve. The control valve is required for the fire hydrant for you to be able to isolate the fire hydrant maintenance on the fire hydrant, or if somebody hits a fire hydrant with their vehicle. So you can turn off the fire H lateral or branch line for a fire hydrant. This is the military refers to it as. Lateral line or a lateral service. So service lateral, think of this as the specific piping that serves the hydrant, not the main [00:13:00] that serves multiple hydrants. next is service main, main, or fire main, which this is the component that like the think of a sprinkler main, how it serves the multiple branch lines. This is the same type of interaction in the piping system. I think that's gonna do it for this episode of fire code tech. Hope you enjoyed the solo cast. As an overview of the episode, we talked about hi, a highlight of codes, standards, and other criteria. We talked about some key definitions for fire hydrants last but not least. We spoke of the parts and pieces of a fire Hy. Hope you enjoyed the episode and we'll see you next time. Thanks for listening everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast [00:14:00] are by no means a professional consultation or a codes end standards interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.

Sean Fuin is a formally trained mechanical engineer who specializes in automation with python and dynamo. On episode 59 of Fire Code Tech we discuss Sean's career and roles in the architecture, engineering, and construction industry. Sean gives great tips and resources for professionals interested in getting into coding and automation.    Sean's Consultancy:  https://www.sigma-aec.com/   Testfit:  https://testfit.io/   Hypar:  https://hypar.io/   Expert Systems: Principles and Programming: https://www.amazon.com/Expert-Systems-Principles-Programming-Fourth/dp/0534384471     [00:00:00] Hello, all welcome to the show. I'm Gus Gagliardi, and this is fire code tech on fire code tech. We interview fire protection professionals from all different careers and backgrounds in order to provide insight and a resource for those in the field. My goal is to help you become a more informed fire protection. Professional fire code tech has interviews with engineers and researchers, fire marshals, and insurance professionals, and highlights topics like codes and standards, engineering systems, professional development, and trending topics in the industry. So if you're someone who wants to know more about fire protection or the fascinating stories of those who are in the field, you're in the right place. Construction industry. In this episode, we're talking again about automation. This episode specifically talks about automation that can benefit engineers, contractors, but the topic of automation and how machine learning AI and other big technology concepts can apply to professional life in general is really ubiquitous in the discussion of how to become more efficient as a professional. Sean is a trained mechanical engineer and he gives great tips for people who are interested in the cutting edge of technology. And if you have a proclivity for coding automation, BIM Revit, or any of the above, you're gonna really enjoy this episode. don't forget to subscribe and follow us on social media. Also, if you could do us a huge favor, give us a five star review on apple podcasts. Let's get into the show. Really enjoy this episode. Don't forget to subscribe and follow us on social media. Also, if you could do us a huge favor, give us a five star review on apple podcasts. Let's get into the. Well, Sean, welcome to fire code tech. Thanks for speaking with me. Hey, thanks for me. It was good to talk about automation. yeah. Automation. I'm gonna talk about automation. Who's not talking about automation. I don't know. It seems like AI. And I keep thinking about AI and machine learning and automation and how that's going to apply to our industry. But. Yeah, I don't know. We could just get right into it. If you have thoughts on that. I like have been trying to pick up a little bit of Python in my spare time and thinking about machine learning and it's not so like clear to me, you know, automation part's clear to me how that would apply to our industry. But do you have any thoughts on like AI and machine learning? What we'll see in the future for those kind of buzzwords for what you and I do on a daily basis. Yeah. I don't know. I've never, I haven't jumped on the machine learning bandwagon. I think it's more of a buzzword. No one really understands the amount of data that you need to make it work. So we have to get a lot better at other things before we can start machine learning our way to success. We have to right. Yeah. I was thinking like, if you had thousands of projects and thousands of device layouts, you know, like really you need like, you know, like 10,000 plus would even, I bet would be a small data set for some of these machine learning projects. Right. So you would need so many projects in order for it to be meaningful. So yeah, it seems like just the baseline automation stuff. Yeah. Makes a lot more sense. I got in debate with a friend of mine, who's working at a firm that's really aggressive, progressive, and they are working on starting to implement some machine learning stuff. And they're just like trying to identify like plumbing fixtures. So we have a fun conversation about that, but I'm like, it's only giving you like this five more percent. And like, so all this work has to go in just to get that extra, like 5% success, but it's like, wouldn't it just be easier if the architect called to sync a. Standardized way. I think that's the approach that we should take. Yeah, but obviously that's had struggles too, so yeah. That's yeah, to my point, I don't think we can get to machine learning if we can't even call a sync, a sync in a consistent manner. That's true. Yeah. I think that it, as with most things in automation, the true value of it is to be found in like the. Repetitive tasks that you do every day. And then eventually you can get to these kind of like highminded ideas about really complicated stuff. But I will say, I think there is a lot of potential there. So should maybe like auto routing and stuff like that. Right. You can almost turn that into a simpler, like 2d problem. [00:05:00] So yeah, there's so many algorithms out there. Like maybe that I just heard something about. They're trying to map the what is it called? The galaxy like web and they're using some type of algorithm that's based off of some type of mold, I think. Huh. And so I saw that like YouTube video on that and I was like, oh, maybe that could work for like auto routing. Do you know? Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, so yeah, that like that auto routing is a really interesting topic. Yeah. It's a really hard one, especially fire protection, right? Oh yeah. Fire protection and fire sprinkler. You guys usually like the last ones to go. Yeah. It's, it's a dynamic. We talk about a lot in inside the firm that I work for is. Fire protection is such a, an odd burden in the sense that, you know, there's so much delegated design that's baseline in our industry. So the engineers by and large will just like shove off the task of actually routing to the contractor so frequently. So it just causes more consternation in the field and between disciplines and H V a C guys mad. Sprinkler guy got in first and routed wherever he wanted it to. And then just said tough. You know, even though we do our best to try to make sure that people coordinate contractors coordinate and we require coordination drawings and our specs, but it's always a pain. Yeah. I personally think we kind of design buildings completely wrong. Right. Like we try to lay out. the architecture first, which of course there needs to be like a form, but we sh like we, you know, as mechanical engineer, I'm used to getting a detailed architecture model before I even start running duct work with ceiling Heights already in the model. And then right. It's always the battle of, I need more room for my ceiling and then not when I do it where right. If you. Kind of have the form of the building, obviously kind of, you know, generically what spaces are, but then you could start to route maybe like the mains, at least using algorithm and even doing plumbing, fire protection, all that together, and then build the architecture's job should be around billion around the infrastructure. Right? Yeah. And making it look. you know, have them, alternatively, how do we hide this infrastructure? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It seems like a chicken or the egg problem. Exactly what needs to come, what needs to come first and speaking with the biology, you know, metaphor. I mean, again, I don't think if you watch a baby grow, right. It starts with like the spinal cord, like the brain, the spinal cord, and like the limbs and everything grow out from there. You know, so you almost have to like, think of the building as having like the spinal cord for the infrastructure and then build around that. That's an interesting thought. I've never, I mean, that makes sense from a that I, I would think that an engineer would think that though. Yeah, it did the battle between the architects and engineers over, you know, it, I worked at a startup called I. and it was kind of a disaster and this was one of the reasons why. And so I came in late in the game, but also I was in charge of like all the mechanical stuff and they had me design the mechanical stuff around their structural stuff and around just, it was a modular. So just around all these co. I was assigned to figure out the mechanical and I kept on saying, right, like, no, the mechanical is you should be designing structural architecture around the mechanical, not the opposite way around. And yeah, the owner of the company never really got that. I could see that I've never been able to. I mean, at least you could have that conversation. I feel like fire protect. Unless it's just like some really specific instance, you know, like with storage sprinklers, sometimes we get into situations where we're pushing around the structural engineers columns and, and Joyce layout. Because if you can't fit these storage sprinklers into this space, you can't build the space. Like you can't sprinkler it. You can't get a code compliant, build it layout, but arm that. One of the things that modular was like, alright, how are we gonna bring fresh air in? Like, [00:10:00] that was the number one question, at least in my mind was like, how are we gonna bring fresh air into this space? And so my idea was to go to the outside wall and now we, again, we're trying to modular and keep it all tight. So then it was like, okay, we, so we're like, we're trying to design these things, the modules, right. So like how can we have repeatable pieces that come together? Right. So like a kitchen module might. A closet in it. And my idea was to put, like, try to get really small HVC equipment, but to maybe go in that closet, that would act as like the also act as the washer and dryer closet. And then we'd have to go out in the wall. Well, my idea was like first put ideally where the H HP equipment should be and then build all the structure around. They were doing the opposite where here's the structure. Tell me where I need to put the H V C. So yeah, those working with those seems like there's always constraints, but the more heavy the building in, or site constraints, just the more difficult the entire process is. So I think modular is like the extreme of. Constraint. I mean, you're like the whole idea is to get it as confined as possible or, you know, just kind of these succinct little pieces. So that's, it's interesting. It's almost like putting right. If you always have the analogy of like, if you put, if you're trying to like pull of Legos back in a box in ways, if you put all the small Legos first, then the big Legos aren't gonna fit. Yeah. Okay. So it's almost like that with the structural, the architecture first before the H V C. Hmm. Yeah, I think that's a interesting way to think about it. I guess we'll just have to get faster in the automation and the prototyping to where that is. Like we can have a conceptually generated layout that's quick so that we can raise that red flag fast, but there's so many options for. Mechanical engineers. I mean like fire protection sprinklers are straightforward. Like you got like what maybe, maybe two most common system types, you know, wet are dry sprinkler systems. There's no like manufacturers really that are driving these big configuration changes. But how much variation do you guys get with building. I mean a lot, a lot of barriers. That's another huge right thing to tackle. Yeah, for sure. The, the jurisdictional stuff is the biggest variability. Just as far as like military versus commercial versus, you know, you could work for department of defense or you. VA or what, you know, all these different government, high rise Highrise, you know, so all that like has a big impact. Yeah. Not auditoriums and stuff, but, but yeah. So I know that we we've had for the listeners just tuning in we've, you know, we had some technical difficulties on the, on the first go around. My, my recording program just was given us fits, but I wanted to. Yeah. That's classic problem for technology. I can't open up laptop walls today with rabbit, so oh yeah. Clap. Wait, what is it? What kind of walls with rabbit? I'm having trouble opening up Autodesk docs models right now. Oh man. Yeah. It's like that one day when everything Autodesk's cloud client went down, it's like, I was like, well, Autodesk never goes down. Surely it's not that. And then you get the email and it. There whole cloud servers down for a day or whatever. I forget when that was, but seems like there's always something it's harder. It makes things harder. Yeah. But I wanted to let people know a little bit about your background and you could keep it abridged, but, you know, tell, tell the listeners about kind of your working history and kinda how you found your role map. So I am a mechanical engineer degree. Got my EIT T still wanna get my PE so work on that. Just one more test to take. Yeah. So going through school, I had my first internship at a H V C firm in St. Louis. And I hated it. They were still, they were just starting to play around with Revit. I actually remember, I somehow I got access to Revit and to get the internship, I like pretty much printed out a model of somebody else's work and threw some ducks in there and was like, look, I know Revit guys. But yeah, I was left doing a whole bunch of CAD stuff there and like, dude, they had me getting photocopy [00:15:00] stuff. So I saw a lot of manual. You know, I was the lowest man on the ton pole. So was a lot of manual tedious stuff and I hated it. Then I got like a year and a half long co-op at a place called tech manufacturing, which they like are a C C shop for aerospace parts. And so that was really, really cool. So at tuck manufacturing I guess I should back up the. In college. I started learning Excel. That's I think where the story should begin. So in college I started learning Excel and we got really good at it. Me and my buddies that we had to do labs with. So we had labs. You have to make these Excel spreadsheets and, you know, before, even the lab, we were doing it. So I was starting to get good at Excel. The firm that I had, my internship was used in a lot of Excel and there's this old, old timer. Awesome. Dude taught me even more. He was always showing me little tricks in the. Excel. So that's been really good, which led me to, I think, in the co-op job, cuz they had an Excel spreadsheet. That was just the most insane thing I've ever seen. So they would bring in so like Boeing or Lockheed would like give these packets of all these parts. And my job was to like find the boing box of the part, right. For the raw things, get out what material it is. So it might be aluminum might be titanium. The grain, which way the grain runs. You just had to like pull all this information out and then put it into this Excel document. And then at that point it would just kind of do its thing. And you did some other stuff to try to get an estimate on the CNC time, but like do this thing and sew many formulas and so many sheets at the end of it. It even calculated like shipping cost and all this. And it made what was called, like the red sheet, I think, is what they called it. And it would be like this big review of all the parts and they'd say, yay or nay. So all the higher ups would come in and we'd review all the parts. After all this information's populated in Excel. And like I said, it's given you cost. It's like it's gave you everything you need to know to say the part is if they're gonna bid on the part, what they're gonna bid and if they'll move forward or not. So I was just like, this is really. So I learned even more Excel there that internship or co-op was up and I needed a job and guess where I landed H VC designer, the thing that I thought I would hate. So yeah, luckily the time dynamo was starting to become a thing and began my Excel. I was like, oh, DMO can get stuff from Excel into Revit. So that started. And then I realized you could do stuff with geometry and then snowballed from there. Now I've been consulting for three years, four years building custom workflows for clients. That's very cool. That's neat that you had that saw the power of this kind of streamlining of, of very difficult and unique process. And so you kind of had that seed planted early in your career for the, the possibilities. Yeah, for sure. Before all that, by the way I worked at restaurants for like my early twenties and I worked under this guy, Vita Elli, who's now the executive chef's chef for Anheuser Bush, but he's like a Gordon Ramsey type. And he, he was all about, I started with him when I was 16. And so he is all about efficiency. So I. I think that's maybe when it was really embedded in my mind, but then just got reinforced in all these, you know, other little adventures I had. Huh. Interesting. When you're talking about, you know, you make custom kind of like dynamo and Python, like solutions, is there anything like you don't have to get specific? Specific projects or tools, but like, can you give examples or maybe talk a little bit about your project work and give the people listening some ideas of these applications? Yeah, I mean, I guess there's anytime the big, the first big success I had with dynamo, I think was studying up projects. So I missed a softball game one night and I was really disappointed, but the night was literally spent we behind it was a huge hospital. I forgot the sheet count, but my, I, I had to work overtime, literally dragging sheets and legends on art dragging views in legends on the sheets. Like it was so silly. So yeah, dynamo again was starting to mature. Yeah, just automating that whole process down to a couple clicks was like, whoa, this is crazy. So that's first. So any like little [00:20:00] things like that, especially in things that have like a very defined recipe is good for that. So now I've done that with like setting up electrical panel schedules, sheets, and doing a whole bunch of stuff. Like the annotations, like there's like this annotation. I guess another advanced thing that I did was that was really cool, was working for electrical contractor. So we made a thing called room in a tote. So it'd go into the Revit model and you'd pretty much section the building off by essentially rooms. And the whole idea was we'd get those elements. We'd make cut sheets for all those elements, fill the materials for all those elements. And then in the warehouse. All the elements, the instructions and the tools, like all the materials, I should say, not elements. So actually the materials, the instructions, how to install the materials, the tools need to install those materials would all go in a tote and be shipped to the construction site. And that tote would make its way into the room. And then the room would, the tote would open up and the electrical guys would do their installations. Wow. So you were doing like material. Material stock listing basically from yeah. Revit model. Right. So right from directly from the rev model and these guys the company hired a lot of people from the field to do the detailing work inside Revit. So like they were doing detail work downs, like the bolt. Wow. Which we were pushing our computers so hard to do this. Yeah, it's really cool. That was very advanced. So, yeah, so we'd go through and like make cut sheets, essentially, like get the front view, the side view, the 3d view, the back view, you know, of every electrical panel and then boom, bill of materials. And then, yeah, there's multiple layers of it. So stuff would build up from like, you know, bolt level to component level. And I forgot that little details of how we did it, but yeah. In other words, you went from Revit model to. All the parts that you needed in a tote that got shipped to the construction site. That's really cool. That's for people who maybe aren't as aware of like Revit and the common detail level, I mean, like that's like detail level 500 for, I mean, there's kind of like different gradients of how much detail is you can go from like a 2d annotation with no. Information tied to it all the way down to where Shawn is saying where the bolts and the RTS on a piece of equipment are detailed. And so there's kind of a sliding spectrum and, and that is on the extreme end of like, I'd say most commonly in the architecture, engineering and construction industry. You're at like the middle of that spectrum, probably like 200 or 300. Level of design, you know, you have either 3d models with a limited amount of information or 2d models or at least that's in my experience, what I've seen in the industry. Well, I like they do have analytical models, right? So I've seen more of that happening where I haven't physically modeling stuff, but you're starting to use Revit more as a design tool rather than a documentation tool. Interesting. Yeah. That's if I add on another thing I've done. So my favorite script I've ever wrote in for mechanical engineering is like zoning a building, and it's just speaking of machine learning so that like uses some clustering algorithms, like canines clustering, and it was a silly problem to solve of just how do you like group these things? And that was the solution was clustering. Interesting. Yeah. I think that can snowball. To whole bunch of other stuff, but also just allows you to start doing, using Revit as a design tool. Huh? That's really interesting. So you would establish H V a C zones based on your automation. Yeah. So it's all about data, right? So you have a whole bunch of spaces in a building to zone a building like common spaces usually get grouped together. So spaces like the same thermostat set points, right. Could be grouped together. Exhaust might be grouped together, excuse me. On exhaust fan exterior spaces, right? So north exteriors would be grouped together. South exteriors could be grouped together. Different windows sizes. Right? If you have a, you know, two rooms next to each other one has a lot more windows, then they wouldn't be grouped together, but right. So you can use all this data to kind of start grouping these things together. And then you're left with like these clusters of spaces that now you have to divide evenly. And so you can't just like draw a line in the middle. You have to like try to find the right [00:25:00] clusters of spaces. So that's where the clustering comes. And then yeah. So then you can actually do like a decent zoning and yeah, it got to a point where we took this to production and we actually put like sliders on stuff. So you could limit how much area is on one zone, you know, set a max into that. You could set a maximum to like. The load difference into the spaces you're comparing. There's a whole bunch of sliders on it, so you can start to generate different zone layouts with the same script. Yeah. What I'm trying to get to, what I think is really cool and kind of my north star right now is then taking those zones and going to energy modeling. So now you could run in theory, right? A whole bunch of different. Run energy models on whole bunch of different systems and, you know, even get you know, upfront cost and life cycle cost and all that sounds really familiar to what I was doing at the manufacturing plant. So, Hmm. That's awesome. It that's such a time consuming process. I'm sure. Oh, crazy. All those. When I was a designer again, when I was low on the totem pole, just watching all this stuff, I'm like this, cuz they're doing all the calculations to like, you know, decide which system to pick. And then you have to like write, you know, we, we went through system a, B and C and we're picking system a because of X, Y. and yeah, it was really time consuming. Yeah. So Revit has access now to energy plus, which, which is what I've been working a lot on. That's awesome. Yeah. That's and I can't see, you know, application to this for really so many engineering systems, like, I mean easily for electrical, definitely for fire protection and you know, other disciplines where, you know, Zoning equipment zoning based on whatever parameters you wanna build in, you know, whether it's a voltage drop or, you know, friction loss you know, all that I could see just so much potential for that. Right. It's kind of cool is too. Yeah. I've thought about it with electrical a lot and I haven't done it yet, but like, you know, taking receptacles and grouping those for panels, right. So, yeah, that's why I seen doing the stuff that I was doing with the electrical contractor. Like when I was doing that, I was really interested in like automating the process before the processes that we were automating there. Cause we were just automating the documentation and already I was looking at like, how do you guys know what? Like, cause they were having to put in a lot of information, right. To make room in a tote work. So it's like you just keep on knocking. Let's keep on knocking chunks out of the thing. And that's why the zoning algorithm was so exciting to me, cuz it, it was a huge whole bunch of people told me it couldn't be done. I was like, and I didn't believe that. So, you know, it was just like, it was this huge gap in the workflow and to solve that gap was just really. Isn't that the start of any good story that they told you that it couldn't be done. I 'em there yet. I haven't won the, the automation princess yet, but oh, does that, did they have awards? Is that a thing? I'm just saying the, you know, you're always, oh yeah. A struggle. Virtual, the virtual automation princess. You haven't gathered her out of the castle. Hopeful it'll happen in my career. Right. I mean, you're off to a good start. That's fun. I like thinking about these big ideas and yeah. Holistically looking at how can you take the whole process and kind of make it into discreet chunks for everything to run smoothly is a really fun idea. Yeah. I think that's what I'm really good at. I'm made a dyslexic. And so if you read stuff about like dyslexic and what they're good at. Exactly. What we just said is exactly what like typically dyslexics are good at. And so, yeah, that's kinda like my superpower now is being able to zoom in and out of like these big problems and just make the connections. Yeah, it's fun. I love it. It's solving, it's solving puzzles and problems. All the. Yeah. So I'd like to, you know, hearing your big thoughts on like the future and what you'd like to, to do with your consultancy, but yeah, like what what, what else is getting you excited? And do you want to do with, with automation or like what kind of gets you charged up on a like a project level or just like an, an automation conceptually I'd like to keep chasing that thread. Yeah, I think I, I mean the whole reason I started the consultancy was not to get rich or anything. The whole reason was I wanted to do what I wanted to do and [00:30:00] work on the stuff that I wanted to work on and I couldn't find that avenue. So yeah, I, cause I didn't mention this earlier, but yeah, I quit my job as a mechanical designer cause I knew I wanted to like pursue automation and I, I tried to find a job around Dallas. to do that. And I couldn't find one. So that's when I started the consultancy. As far as motivation, I think my Northern light has always been this vision. I've kind of already described of getting an architect model and then being able to quickly generate a whole bunch of different options for the H VC. I guess branching that off into plumbing and electrical would be awesome. And then I guess the biggest, the like end game would be, if you could do that and start to optimize with all the systems and architecture and structure all in one algorithm. Which man there's a right. I'll know we get there, I think in theory, but of course it's just like, like computational time is a struggle. Maybe with quantum computing, right? Throw another buzz. There's computers are getting bigger and bigger and faster and faster, so right. That is how we're doing buildings. The super computers and just algorithm. Yeah, I guess it gets into like kind your thing of like where the industry's going. And I don't know. That's where I'm, that's where I see it going. That's my Northern light. It's also kind of scary. Right. Once if someone beats me to writing that algorithm, am I a job? But so far it's been kinda proven not to be the case. Right? So. Automation's gonna take her job south park in reference there . Right, but it hasn't, and we are still talking about, you know, we started off talking about the struggles of data and data entry. And so there's like these two forces, there's these entrepreneurial spirits that are pushing really hard for automat. But then there's just like this force holding it back due to like, I almost wanna say like people problem with just understanding, right. Just understanding, you know, how databases work, understanding computer science. Building code, I think is holding us back. Right. I think we need to digitize building code if we're ever gonna. Right. An algorithm like that. Cause right. If you, like, we were talking earlier, if you change one thing that changes the other. Yeah. That's an interesting thought. You know, in something that I've thought about a decent amount, because you know, like if you take a look at this company up codes who is a definitely super somebody. Yeah. So they want to like make the, kind of take a tech angle on the building code. And there's been a lot of litigation over that. Yeah. That is about saying that was huge. The fact that they won, that was huge. Yeah, definitely. So, and I was watching that closely because that kind of, you know, if you don't have free license to work with that data set, then like, what are you gonna do? How can you, how can you innovate on top of that? It's like even upgrades though. Isn't really there to what we need. Like I played around with up codes a lot. And it's great. Yeah. I know they're doing, trying to do some compliancy checks, audience, compliancy checks, but not the, so I've been thinking a lot about, and I was, I went to bill recently and I was asking everybody it's, it's hard to even formulate the question, but like, You start having all these databases connecting, and we all know the pictures that you see, but it's like, how do these things really connect? And then it's like, how do you take that stuff to scale? And so the example is, let's say I have an algorithm that is diffuser is already, I'm gonna make it real simple. That's not how it's written, but like diffusers are placed 10 feet apart, right? That's algorithm supply diffusers based tend to feet apart code. So then you're reading you go, now you're doing a project somewhere else. And this one says a supply diffuser will be placed in the center of the room and the exhaust diffuser will be placed by the door. Right. Human language. How can you build a system at scale where you can just keep on adding those rules in?[00:35:00]  Right. So next, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Next rule is. Code or whatever, for whatever reason, rule number three is slot diffuser goes on window. You know what I mean? Yeah. The flow control for the such a big process is really difficult. Snowballs on you so quick. And I ran up diffusers cause I was thinking of'em a lot about this with just diffusers recently and yeah, so I've so yeah, bringing back to bill, I asked a whole bunch of people, this question of like, how can we start to do this stuff at scale? And. Make a system that you can just add more layers on top of really simple, right? The only person to give me an answer or a path to even start to go down was Ian from high park. Who's actually the creator of dynamo. I forgot his last name. Sorry, Ian. . Yeah. And so they're working on this thing called Hy par, which is really cool, but they essentially build things that are functions and the functions wrapped inside the functions is kind of like that design logic is the elements that, you know, use that design logic that get placed. And so then their kind of workflows to layer function on top of function, which again is kind of getting back to the idea of. Function a will make floors function. B will divide the floors into offices and corridors and whatever right function maybe Q would be right now put in diffusers function. Z might be right now, route ducks. Yeah, so they have a point and his thing was talking about is he recommended that I look at at the book, I forgot what it's called expert systems. So I've done a little bit look at expert systems. I think that's kind of a route and that's a lot older, the machine learning by the way, expert systems, the book. Yes. There's a cool book. You wanna know the principles of programming principles are programming. I mean, it's not, or it's not even just program. It's more of like a way to structure data in a way. Who's the author expert systems, principles and programming. Josh C G I a R R a T a N O author link up in the show notes. But it's also another thing that I've been thinking a lot about is right. We have a lot, like the turnovers happening in the industry so bad and like, so a lot of senior engineers that have all this knowledge in their head. And, and again, that's another just like building code. Like there's also this database of knowledge. It just like we have building code that's in written word. Right. And that has to be translated into some type of algorithm. There's also the knowledge in all of these engineers heads that has to be translated. Oh, no, sorry. I keep interrupting. I was gonna say, I read a terrible article today. They were posting, they said 25% of the professionals in fire life safety think that their knowledge transfer is being completed from people aging outta the in industry. So like, there's just this terrible. Loss of industry specific knowledge. And like you were saying, this turnover, this, this, this exiting of this longstanding knowledge base from the industry is a huge problem. So yeah, I guess back to the question of like, where do we go or what's gonna look like in a few years, I think it's an open ended question. When I was at built last time, I actually left pretty pessimistic cause. I'm fairly new to the industry on like five, six years experience now and right. COVID happens. So we all didn't see each other for a good two years. It's a tight knit community at that conference and we all come back and we're all talking about the same problem about data and standardization. And how do we implement this in our firm? And I'm just sitting there. Thinking if I retire and I'm still having these conversations, I'm gonna be very disappointed in my life. like, you know what I mean? And I see other people there that have been there for have way more experience than me. I mean, there has been some success of going from like AutoCAD to Revit, but yeah, I Don. I hope we're on like the, you know, exponential path right now. It seems pretty flat, but soon we're gonna take off. So I guess that's to wrap up that question two options, right? We either stay [00:40:00] linear pretty much linear flat as we have been with our efficiency in the AC industry, are all this technology that we've been talking about finally gets us to, you know, go off exponentially. . Yeah, that's interesting. Everything. We need that exponential to happen, right. With everything going on in the world. Yeah. I believe that it's gonna happen. And to, to me, what makes me excited is just like how I can finally see companies or individuals like you even existing, like the fact that they, you and March do exist and you are making good content and automation and like, and then you have companies that are becoming. You know huge, critical successes, like D roots and stuff. So I mean, look back 20 years ago and we didn't even have companies doing custom software. I mean, like in our, in the AEC industry for as a business, right. I consider myself so lucky. It's like, it's incredible. It's just crazy. I came in at the right time for like, there to be this opportunity. Yeah, that's awesome. And so that part about it just makes me think that we're just at the launching point of this automation trend and, you know, 20 years, you know, test it, test it. Mm-hmm wow. You need to look at test it. You should, they should be on your podcast too, by the way. Shout out to them, but they just got 20 million in funding or something. Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, that's just one example of last start. You brought up up codes co tools kinda working on energy model stuff I'm working on. Actually. Yeah. Another question to ask. Will Autodesk always be the top dog in the game, man? I stop test fit, audit desk, stop test fit from having a booth at this. Esque university. Oh, wow. That's incredible. I I was talking with mod about who's gonna be the Autodesk killer or if there was going to be one in our lifetime and he, you know, kept boiling it down to like, whoever can really captured the holistic picture of the building and all the engineering disciplines would be the, the one to roll them. All right. I think H park there again, Hy Park's another one. They have it. What's really cool to me about test fit. What I've always seen is they're pretty much doing like, like they're doing test fits. That's the name where it comes from mm-hmm . So they're like, you know, you give a site, you draw out a polygon and it just starts like creating multi-families and they keep the ratios between like you know, units and parking stalls and stuff like that. But what I see is this really simple geometry. And back to my original thing about like how routing MEP stuff, how we're doing it wrong with trying to do it. When it's really complex, we have a really complex maze. Well, what test fit's output is, is just like, pretty much like massing. So then I've always wanted to layer MEP on top of that. Cause I, I know what their output's gonna be. Like, I know what I'm getting. Yeah, and it's simple. So those two things right there, those two things makes energy modeling a lot simpler makes you know, like auto writing algorithms, a lot simpler. So I see someone like that's why I see with test fit is because they started the very beginning stage, but now they can just keep adding. One of the things is engineer to build custom softwares and engineers. You don't know what you're getting from the. Right. So that's like the biggest struggle that I see with writing tools for, or writing tools for engineers is right. We all know what the, a architects come through and I'm like writing the input is so variable from what the architect can provide. Right. It's, it's a very frustrating thing. Again, one of those times where I always get told I'm wrong, but I'm always like, or like they don't have control, but I'm like, write it into your bid execution plan. Hey, architect. We expect this brand to carry our fodder wall rating. Is that how you guys do it? If not. Okay. Let's change it. Or can you please do it that way? Here's why, cause I'll save you so much time on the back and forth. You know what I mean? So there's, there's countless countless examples of that. When you go from architect to engineering, you know that the data drop the model transfer. Oh, yeah. It's it can be done just like a hundred different, like a thousand different ways. Why is machine learning when you can just write a simple execution plan, find an architect that understands automation and what's needed. Right. So, yeah, I don't know. I guess the business models have to change. And I'm not an expert on the business models, so yeah, but it's fun to think about, I think that's funny that you're like, let's start with mechanical, cause maybe it's good to be naive and not think about, not understand the [00:45:00] business models. Cause then you can come at it clean perspective. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's awesome. It makes me really excited to see things like test fit. And for those who are interested in taking a look it's looks like it's mostly kind of residential and building development projects for. Developers and kind of this blocking and programming sort of early design phase, like even before schematic design, kind of programmatic design phase, and you know, anybody who is aware of the money involved in the development for these type of facilities would quickly realize how much market capture and money there is for this type. Service. I mean, it's, it's immediately seems like a no brainer from, you know, whatever three minutes looking at it. I keep on bringing up. Ian Ian told me when, well, like one of the first times was met when he was starting high par was, and I use it all the time in so many presentations. It's like, why are we starting off projects with a blank screen? Right. And test fit's a perfect example. What we could be starting projects off with what is high bar? What do you keep saying? I don't know what that is. A company. It's hard to explain what high is. I think they're struggle explaining what it is. Another person podcast would love to I'll leave. I'm gonna leave it there. I tried to explain it earlier. The business model kinda. I've always looked at the business model as like, huh. Cause they're trying to bring like a community kinda like DMO sense to it, but it's like, huh, it's weird. that's interesting. Well, maybe I'll do a solo cast or something about it, but interesting stuff. Well, I like, you got a lot of different perspectives and people so far that I've never even heard of. So I appreciate all that perspective, but so for people who want to get started. Dynamo or for automation, like where would you suggest that they start or resources that they should investigate? I would start with having a problem and trying to solve it in a simple problem. Not a hard problem. I say this story real quick, or just thing I learned through consulting. I'll like when I first decide to work with a client or not, one of the big red flags that I get is when someone. I want you to auto route MEP for me, like, to me, that's a huge red flag, because if that's just that simple of a statement, they have not taken the time to think about the complexity of that problem, the amount of data that's needed to even start thinking about that problem. Right. Cause what are you, where, where are your sources and where are your targets? Is that data in the model? What do you wanna avoid? How is that data in the model? Are we gonna do it in 3d 2d? Why not 3d? Because it's really com you know what I mean? Like, just, if you ask for something like that, that complex, then you don't have a grasp on what it takes to build tools and you don't have understanding of the data are the geometry behind. So again, if you're gonna, if you're trying to get into automation, start with a task, don't have it be auto routing, have it be like getting data from Excel to rev. That's where I started setting up projects putting legends on sheets, something that's relatively linear, you know? And there's a lot of tools out there. There. There's VBM Excel. There's dynamo. There's Python. Dynamo. If you're working in Revits probably your easiest best shot get hooked. And then yeah, just keep on learning until you can never stop learning. So I guess that's what adds say. Well, I think that's a beautiful point to end on keep learning to never stop learning. Cause that says something that I'm throttling myself. That's gonna be the guarantee, right? The Northern star is to. Northern star. I wanna have the, you know, in star wars when they have like the death star plan, that's what I would, that's what I picture. It's what you want for your flow chart for your process and your dependency. I want, I want a hologram in the middle of a desk where I can flip some knobs and just the MEP infrastructure, right? Just like you say, the generative design stuff just switches and you get. Again, just like the red sheet at manufacturing facility that tells you the critical information. And then you, we all sit around that desk and we debate and we have conversations about, [00:50:00] you know, the right choice and to get there. Yes. Never stop learning. Hmm. Cause it takes so many hats to pull that off. Probably hats that we haven't thought exist. Yeah, I like that. Well, that's a good note, Sean. Well, where can people find you if they want to reach out to you about custom rev solutions or if they wanna learn more about your company? So within email website, YouTube, Twitter usually my name, our Sigma AAC. Cool. Well, I'll throw some links to your consultancy down in the show notes. If people want to come find you, but yeah. Thank you for coming on the show, Sean. Thank you. Good conversation. Thanks for listening, everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.  

This solocast is all about considerations for high-piled storage fire protection. We take a deep look at section 3201.3 in the International Fire Code. Don't miss this episode if you want to know what questions to ask for your next project.                                        Transverse and longitudinal flue example https://www.agcs.allianz.com/content/dam/onemarketing/agcs/agcs/pdfs-risk-advisory/tech-talks/ARC-Tech-Talk-Vol-5-Why-Rack-Flue-Spaces-Are-Important-EN.pdf            Transcript:   [00:00:00] Hello. Welcome to the solo cast of fire code tech in these episodes. It's just gonna be me, your host, Gus Gagliardi. There's gonna be a range of topics, but I'm gonna talk about specific technologies, installation, standards, codes, and how they work as well as some other interesting topics that don't neatly fit inside of the context of a normal interview. Hello. Welcome to episode 41 of the solo cast series of fire code tech. On this episode, we're talking about high piled storage. Yes. This is the second solo cast episode. That's talking about high piled storage in episode number five, we spoke about some of the preliminary fact. For analyzing a project for high piled storage requirements in this follow up solo cast, we're going to discuss what the code defines is required. Provisions for implementing a high piled storage permit and construction documents. Don't forget to subscribe. So you never miss an episode and follow us on social media. Owen. If you wanna support the podcast, please go give us a five star review. On apple podcasts, let's get into this show. So what are some important factors for analyzing your facilities? High powered storage needs. In this episode, I'm going to speak to some of the required pieces of information in the international fire code. In regards to storage, configurations and high piled storage. We're gonna be talking. The international fire code chapter 32, but more specifically section 32 0 1 0.3, construction documents. This section reads at the time of the building at. This section reads at the time of the building permit application for new structures designed to accommodate high cloud storage or for requesting a change of occupancy slash use. And at the time of application for storage permit. Plans and specifications shall be submitted for review and approval. In addition, the information required by the international building code, the storage permit submittal such shall include the information specified in this section. The construction documents shall include all of the following. So this section tells you exactly when you need to think about a high piled storage permit requesting a change of occupancy slash use at the time of application for storage permit. during the design process, new structures that are anticipating storage requirements. There are a variety of different situations in which you might be performing management of change and working on a facility with existing storage, configurations, or installing or permitting new facility. High piled storage implications. This section one more time. That's 32 0 1 0.3. Construction documents details. A good list of starting questions for a building owner. If you are a fire and life safety professional, that's trying to help them navigate the requirements in the fire code and building code in the United States. This list has 14 different items and they might not all be applicable to your project, but it is a good sanity check for you to run through these items. If you have a project that is incorporating high piled storage, or if you think. They might be near the thresholds for high piled storage. If you're not sure about what the definitions or some of the beginning terms are for high piled storage, go back and take a listen to solo cast. Number five, number one on the list in 32 0 1 0.3 is floor plan of the building showing locations and dimensions of high powered storage areas. This information is really critical because a facility can have a variety of different high pile storage areas and a mixture of commodities throughout the facilities. These areas need to be clearly marked and delineated within the facility. And it plays a huge part in understanding the severity in the specific areas of the facility by designating these different storage configurations. So you have a area in a shop where you want to store tires, but you don't want to have a fire sprinkler system with that great of density for your entire facility. Well, if you can ACC. The storage [00:05:00] configuration and provide a way to delineate in the facility like draft curtains and higher hazard sprinklers over the tire section, but lower the commodity hazard severity in the rest of the facility. Then you can manage storage in a more. Potentially cost effective way. The second factor that is listed in 32 0 3 0.1 is height of the storage usable height for each storage area is how the section defines. This point of information. There's a good reason for this information being required. The height of the storage configuration is one of the primary determinants for how severe the hazard will be and how the nature of the fire protection system demand. Number three on the list is number of tier in each rack. If applicable number four is. Commodity clearance between top of storage in the sprinkler deflect. Of each storage arrangement. This is important because there is a minimum distance from the sprinkler deflector to the top of storage. And this distance can be as low as 18 inches. And as large as I believe, three feet for storage, sprinklers, like CMSA and ES F. Storing commodities in a configuration that does not give adequate clearances something that you'll see frequently, especially in office buildings, you know, not in specific to high powered storage, but any type of storage, which obstructs clearance to the deflector of the sprinkler is an. Number five is Ile dimension of each storage array. If you're familiar with the tables in N FPA 13, that speak about the different demand requirements for storage sprinklers, you'll be aware that. The closer the aisle width, the more severe the hazard. So a four foot aisle has a larger demand than an eight foot aisle. So this is a good thing to keep in mind when analyzing your storage array. It might not be the first thing that comes to mind when you start asking questions about storage, but you should keep it in your tool. Number six is maximum pile volume for each storage or array. So there is a neat table. We talked about it a bit in episode five of the solo cast originally on high storage. So if you wanna hear a little bit more about the table in the international fire code that has different fire protection and life safety features, depending on the volume of the storage in your facility. Go check that. Number seven location and commodity classification in accordance with section 32 0 3. Commodity classification is a very intricate subject and a lot of fire protection engineers in the industry. Especially some of the professional societies will counsel engineers to not even try to classify commodities, to rely on the owner and, uh, scientists or engineers who specialize in this process to classify commodities because of the liability involved. I'm sure I will do a whole podcast about this in the future. Number eight. If commodities are encapsulated or banded. So this is a commonly missed feature for high cloud storage. Maybe you have fairly non combustible commodities, but they are stored in boxes that are encapsulated in plastic. So this can be something that will greatly increase the hazard of your commodity that you're storing. Not only is it wrapped in a petroleum product, but it is not allowing the sprinklers to discharge onto the C commodities. So it increases the hazard number nine, location of fire department access. Doors. So when you reach the high piled storage threshold, you have to have additional, uh, egress and fire department access. So this is something that they want noted on the permitting plans is do you have the fire department access required for high piled storage? Number 10 in this section is type of fire protection systems. This one's fairly explan, self explanatory, you know, do you have a storage sprinklers? Do you have advanced detection means of detection? You know, is it a what system or a dry system? Um, you need to know these factors when, uh, [00:10:00] permitting or evaluating a response to a fire. So it's a. Fire and life safety determinant to have all the information about the system available. Number 11, location of control valves, controlling main sprinkler riser valves, and in rack sprinkler riser valves. This is something they want designated on the plans. And this is important for emergency response. And with Iraq, sprinkler systems, you get a lot of extra evolving and components added. So they want this to be displayed in these construction documents, number 12 type location and specifications of smoke removal, and curtain board systems. So. The smoke removal systems are a firefighter. Feature in the facility and there are a couple of different ways you can accomplish this, um, feature you can have vis in the roof that are on fue links, or you can have a, uh, uh, Automatic or manually operated system that utilizes air handling units that are rated for the discharge of heat. He smoke. Obviously the fue links are going to be a more cost effective means to provide this smoke and heat removal. But some owners prefer to go the route of the dedicated air handling unit for the evacuation of smoke and heat. This is not for. The response to a fire. This is really for, um, post incident evacuating, fire, and smoking heat from the building. So it's a little bit of a strange requirement, but, um, good to know about, because it can be expensive if you miss this requirement and then find out that you have to incorporate roof penetrations and expensive equipment like fusible. Heat and smoke removal, vents, number 13, dimension and location of transverse and longitudinal flu spaces. So rack sprinklers are really confusing and I still don't claim to be anything close to an expert on in rack sprinklers. The, if you go take a look at NFPA 13, there are diagrams for where to locate the sprinklers. Well, in regards to the positioning of the racks and the different annual spaces in between the racks for N rack sprinklers and so transverse and longitudinal flus are. Industry terms for the different spaces length and widthwise between the racking systems. So, um, I'll try to find a snippet from NFP 13 for you to get some idea of what these spaces look like. If you don't know, but go check the show notes. Number 14 is additional information regarding the required design features, commodities storage, drain measurements, and fire protection features with the high powered storage area. Shall be provided at the time of permit, we required by the fire code official. So this is just an all encompassing note for the official being able to require and need the approval of any fire and life safety feature. They would like, um, I've worked in occupa or not occupancies, but jurisdictions like Houston, where there is a definit. Uh, emphasis on this high piled storage permit. So you want to, um, really be aware of the different jurisdictions you're working in and what kind of different permitting authorities you're going to have because they will carry much more scrutiny than some other jurisdictions. That's gonna be it for now. Thank you guys so much for listening and we'll see you next time on fire code tech. Thanks for listening. Everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with. Fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again. And we'll see you next time.    

This episode explores Wojciech's recent progress with the Fire Science show as well as his new chapter on Fire and Smoke Modeling in the "Handbook of Fire and the Environment". Tune in to hear about modeling fire and smoke in environments as big as city blocks.    Fire Science Show:  https://www.firescienceshow.com/   Handbook of Fire and the Environment https://bit.ly/3bCId0I   Transcription Gus Gagliardi: [00:00:00] Hello, all welcome to the show. I'm Gus Gagliardi, and this is fire code tech on fire code tech. We interview fire protection professionals from all different careers and backgrounds in order to provide insight and a resource for those in the field. My goal is to help you become a more informed fire protection. Professional fire code tech has interviews with engineers and researchers, fire marshals, and insurance professionals, and highlights topics like codes and standards, engineering systems, professional development, and trending topics in the industry. So if you're someone who wants to know more about fire protection or the fascinating stories of those who are in the field, you're in the right place. Hello, all welcome to episode 58 of fire code tech. On this episode, we're speaking once again with Wojciech Węgrzyński WOIC is a friend of the podcast and the host of the fire science show. In this episode, we get some updates on what has been happening with the fire science show and wojak details his chapter in the new published handbook titled the handbook of fire and the environment by S F P. Wojciech chapter in specific talks about fire and smoke modeling. He evaluates how we can use fire and smoke modeling to better understand how fires impact the environment and what methods we can use to predict and protect individuals from the hazard of fire and the pollutants that are. If you enjoyed this episode, please go check out the fire science show. He has a wide variety of topics, and he really gets at some fascinating scientific points of view that we don't as often cover on fire code tech. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button for fire code tech and the fire science show. And give us a follow on social media. Also, if you enjoy the content and you wanted to give us a big favor, give us a five star review on apple iTunes podcasts. Let's get into the show. welcome back to fire code tech. Thanks for coming on the show, sir. Thank you so much, GU thank you so much, GU very happy to be here with you again. Nice. Well, yeah, the fire code tech. Goes round two, I guess. Yeah. Or what is it? The fire science code tech show. That was, that was a good one. I really enjoyed. I really enjoyed that. That mashup was nice. One. It was fun. It was fun. Yeah. Well, I wanted to just, you know, start off by getting a update of like what you've been thinking about the podcast. We were chatting a little bit off air, but I'm sure everybody is interested about, you know, How you been feeling about it and what's been going on and just like a little bit of background on the, behind the scenes for Roja. Wojciech Węgrzyński: Yeah. Cool. I'm not, not very often sharing behind the scenes on fire sand in the fire science show. So I guess it makes more sense to share it in, in here. It's been fun. It's been a great year. Definitely a chance to meet and talk with people that I would not usually talk to. And that was, that was really good discovering a lot of new, super smart, super intelligent people who do groundbreaking research in fire for me as an academic broadening my, my field of view. So that has been excellent. And. I really like it, a lot people seem to like and enjoy it. So makes me very happy to, to get feedback from outside of my closet. and yeah, I, nowhere close to stopping doing that quite opposite. I'm I'm very. Happy to, to do this project, continue this project. And my head is buzzing with ideas, how to make it better, how to grow it. Gus Gagliardi: So many, so many new roots open up and I, I hope that. It's the early days of the fire science show. And you're gonna hear a lot more from it. Hopefully , we'll see. I would bet on it. I would bet on it with you behind the wheel, but no, that's awesome to hear about. Yeah. I, I definitely know what you mean about the podcast opening up new doors, but yeah, I was wondering with your newest riding endeavor that you were sharing with me. But like what kind of, how has the, like the symbiotic relationship of the podcast? Like how has that influenced other areas of your career? Because I know for me, it's, I've seen it have subtle and not so subtle influence on knowledge and just opportunities. Yeah. That's kind of an intriguing question, I guess. Wojciech Węgrzyński: I mean first, first things first I'm a scientist and an engineer I'm I'm podcaster is, is a third hat if I may. And definitely my, my prime career is as is the VO, the [00:05:00] scientist. I I'm the guy who does fire experiments and measures stuff and tries to publish that and shares the knowledge through academic papers mainly. So. It's difficult to say to what extended this world's overlapped that much. I would say that podcast is I found podcast as an excellent way to communicate the research. Like this is something absolutely. Great. And it it's working like magic and it, it was one of the reasons why I've started podcast. You know, sometimes you go to a conference and there's a person they're talking about their research. They're giving a 10 minute presentation and it's like, you can go asleep. Sometimes it's really difficult to. To capture all the knowledge that person is trying to share, giving their best. And I'm not saying people are lazy or something or, or unskilled, but it's just the way how it is in conferences. And then after the conference, you go for a beer with that person and you can spend like three hours in the pop talking about that research. And it is fascinating. And I couldn't get that out of my head. Why, you know, the same person, the same topic, the same thing in one place. It's very difficult to. On the other hand, it's so approachable. So nice. So juicy, like you can learn so much from talking to people and I figured out the context makes the difference and this human to human interaction makes the difference. And I've bet on that while starting the podcast and it worked out, it really seems to be the thing, like when you talk to people, they open up. When you ask them questions, they, they light up inside and they want to talk, you know, I, you may know the feeling of talking to a 200 people in the room and you don't really have a good idea if any of them is listening. like, you know, People on their phones. People were watching around someone talking with somebody else on the side, someone leaving the room, middle of the talk. You didn't know if they left because it's horrible talker. They just received a very important phone. You know, you don't know that it's stressful and here Once you forget, this is being recorded. Once you forget, this is going to be shared with hundreds of thousand or thousands of people you open up and, and you can just, you know, give the science to the world. And, and this is the interaction between podcasting and academia that. I enjoy the most, I must say I'm not taking that big advantage of, of my podcast with my research because there's a lot happening at ITB and, and at my research group, which I guess I could have a whole podcast about research. We are just doing, but I, I, I wanted my show to be a venue for everyone else and whole community of people, scientists. So yeah. That's number one. Influence. Yeah. Well maybe in one day you'll have. Media network, where you can have a whole litany of fire scientists talking on different podcasts on a channel one day. We don't know. I won't, I won't sell you short yet. I think you got it in you. Yeah. Media empire. That that'll be great. There you go. I, I thought at understand, I thought the fire science is too small, even for a podcast. So, but I was very wrong. I was very wrong. It's so niche. It's so niche. And like, I wonder that same thing sometimes I'm like, is it so. is it such a, like a small subset of an audience? Like, is there enough people? Gus Gagliardi: I really didn't even know. Like I was excited when I was having 10 or 12 people listen to the podcast. I was excited on a weekly basis. I was like, this is awesome. I can't believe that people are even listening to me right now. Like what, what the heck even is happening. So I, I love all what you're. I when thinking when, considering that I thought it is a small audience, but it's an audience that deserves a great, great shows, great content. Wojciech Węgrzyński: And let's do this and see what happens and, and it turned out cool. Yeah. From the opposite side, like how does podcasting influence my work as a scientist? I get the chance to listen every single episode of fire science here, because I record them. I edited them. I listen to them. So I'm a very solid consumer of my own content. And I, I honestly think listening to podcasts like. Yours and, and mine and there's others is probably the easiest way for passive career development. Like there, there is no other as easy investment of your time. Even in time it can be considered even entertainment in a way. And yet you learn so much. So from every interview, I, I learn something that eventually gets implemented in my science. But I would get that by listening to podcast. I wouldn't have to make the podcast to, to have that if I was just listening to, to the podcast, which I am, I, I would still benefit in a very, very similar way. So yeah, I think it's a great medium [00:10:00] and one that's very easy, but very rewarding. Gus Gagliardi: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Well, I wanted to ask, I feel like I'm just getting selfish here and I'm asking you all the podcast questions up front, but I wanted to ask just like, and I think you've like spoke a little bit about, you know, how it's been and. How things are going, but yeah, I mean, like, I love hearing about your, you saying you're, you're scheming, you're thinking about ways to grow it, but like what dreams do you have, if you could share any for what you would like to do with the fire science show? Like yeah. Where would, where do you see it going? Yeah, first and foremost, I would like it to continue. Very long time. Like I would love to one day wake up and think about, I dunno, 10 years of interviews I've done with the fire scientists, you know, see in the podcast reflection of how the field grown, how it evolved, how one thought fueled another. Wojciech Węgrzyński: I, I mean, doing it for a year, I can already I, I can already see Repository of hours of, of interesting interviews, but I really wonder how will it look after like five or 10 years of doing that? How big it'll be? What, what great thoughts will be in it? I would love to know interview today. Some. Undergraduate student learned that 10 years forward their famous professor and, and it was first communicated. These are the dreams, you know, really they're very down to earth. I, I don't dream about building a tycoon of, of podcasts or, or having I don't know, the number one show on the planet or so that I don't care that much. I'm reaching my goals with what I'm doing. I would honestly like really love to continue and just like reflect on how it influences lives of others. That's. That's very rewarding on, on its own. Obviously I would love to get the show sponsored one day or, or, you know, get something rolling that. And I think it's important for, for podcast long longevity, you know, it's, it's it's, it's, it's a thing that definitely helps, but it's not a goal on its own. Gus Gagliardi: It's something that would be nice as an, as an added part of this routine. Yeah, I think it's, I, I mean, I'm sure you're already at a place where if you just started going and chasing sponsors, you could get 'em it's just the time to do all that on top of yeah. Your, your three other jobs. You got your you're an engineer, you're a scientist you're podcast. You're a father like, yeah, you got, maybe you spare a couple seconds left in the day that you probably need for your sanity. So if you, if you're really one of those sponsors, I'm sure you could go get 'em, but I love. I feel like you have like a philosopher's soul when you speak about these things that, oh, thank you. Wojciech Węgrzyński: I always enjoy listening to. But I find myself just like going into, I'm listening to a wojak podcast mode, even though I'm supposed to be interview interviewing you. So I need to be careful about listening to you. okay. That's cool. I'll I'll I'll just pop a three minute timer to not exceed you just make sure you start snapping. Gus Gagliardi: If I look like I'm glazed over and I'm just like listening to you too. Intently kill man. No I wanted to talk to you. You shared with me like a new project that she had just finished. And I saw that Brian Meachum was sharing it on link two, LinkedIn too, after we were talking about it and super exciting, but I really wanted to dive in in this conversation and talk about your new chapter in the handbook of fire and the environ. Wojciech Węgrzyński: It was, is such an exciting project. And I was delighted to be invited by Brian to participate in, in that project. It's a handbook it's called a handbook of fire and environment. It's within the, let's say environment of, of SF P handbooks. So it's, it's a completely new development that hopefully will be sustained and growing as, as it as its own thing. It's. Large. Well, handbook is a large book. It it's large book many chapters with, with great, great people, all focused around the environmental impact of fires on the environment, but also in a cultural way, in a social economic way. So all the, all the different ways, how fires impact society. Editors of the book are Brian Mitchum, who you've mentioned, and professor Margaret Magna me from Sweden. So they're, they're, they're both co-editors of the, of the book. They were leading the whole thing. And I even had, I had Margaret on my podcast some time ago, we were talking about sustainability in build environment. And this is also something that, that fits into the puzzle of, of fires and the environment. So the book itself, [00:15:00] it started, I know three, maybe four years ago. It takes a long time to publish a handbook, man. It's like you and me are on a tight schedule with the podcast and almost a weekly. It takes years to publish a book of this magnitude. And it it's, it's amazing. It's even if you do your best job and at the moment when it's published, the, the references in it are already two years old because it takes so much time to process the book, but ah, it's, it's cool. The book is, the book is out there and the knowledge there is is worth sharing. Absolutely. If you want sorry. The, the story of the handbook like goes, goes far back and it's it has been triggered by the how fires do damage environment. We we've been more and more. You know, aware of the effects fires due to environment in terms of smoke, polluting the air in terms of the soil and water damage that is done from fire and extinguishing actions. We had some huge, like petrochemical fires, huge chemical plant fires that. Their ethics on the environment around was very profound, but we also had fires like the tragic gr tower or the Notre Dame, par cathedral fires, which were just buildings inside of a city. And yet they had environmental consequences. If you look through that layer on them. So it it's something we are becoming more and more aware. And this handbook was a way to answer this need for the society to be able to quantify, measure, model that, to better understand this impacts. So yeah, that's the handbook. Yeah. Wow. That's that's incredible to hear you talk about like the scope of a document like this. Gus Gagliardi: I mean, I guess it makes complete sense when you have this many authors this much like peer review and, and this much just process to compile it all, you have thousands of pages probably. Or I don't know how roughly how long it is, but it's it's like 500, but it's, it's, it's a massive work. Yeah. 500 man. That's still like a dense, dense, but man, so much to be gleaned about it too. And so I, you know, was But, yeah, it's exciting and cool to see a little bit of your, your wind talk. You know, I didn't get through the entire chapter over that you wrote, but, oh man. It's it's it's way through and probably take with me. Take me months to get through it, but I was like trying to read it and UN not just read it, but understand it, you know, I could read it and just like go through it and my eyes go over and be like, yep. That went inside my brain for a moment. Or just like go through it, try to pick it apart. I was taking notes, but it was really interesting to. Get like a little bit more on your, on your wind talk. And I feel like that's your baby, you know, like this, this idea and this thing that you really love to. So it was cool for me to get a little bit of a peek behind the, the curtain for. For that lecture and that discussion that we had talked about. And honestly, when we were doing our first talk, you were given hints about the win talk when you came back. Yeah. So it was like perfect timing. Perfect timing. yeah. So, but yeah, but I'll, so let's get into that. Let's talk about like, you know, I guess let's get into. So like who would benefit from reading this book? Like, who's kind of like the, the audience or the target. I mean, I can definitely see. People who like yourself and, and like the firm I work for at times, like performance based design professionals are people who deal with fire and the, you know, just the sociology of it, the science of it, all the parameters, like they can benefit by reading your chapter. But yeah, maybe you have a greater sense of who's a good audience for this document. It's it's a tough question, you know, because I would love to say everybody and that's a horrible answer to such post questions, which I now know being a content creator, if your content is for everybody, it's for no one. Wojciech Węgrzyński: So, so I'll try to Wrap up who would be a perfect recipient of this chapter, like who I would like to give this book in a president and tell them you would really, really benefit from reading this. And I, I think it would be an engineer, not necessarily dealing with the building design, but one that wants to understand a bigger picture or because of the work they're doing. They have to. Understand the bigger picture, the context of what they're being designing, be the building, a tunnel, a road, a system you know a bigger community even. If, if you are involved in, in [00:20:00] design and you would like to understand another layer of perception of your. If you're in the building, we usually care. Okay. Is your ISA time higher than your required time? And if that is you're good, if not, then you're bad. What are your concentrations inside? But as soon as you know, the smoke is exhausted outside of that compartment, you don't think about words going to fly. How far can it fly? Who's going to be vulnerable to that smoke. And actually even how much will there be? Eed out of your fire. It's not something we consider today that much while designing buildings or other systems. I'm not saying we should always do that, but I am also sure that in certain cases we would benefit from understanding what our what our buildings, what, what threats our building pose to the surroundings. As I mentioned the cases of Grandful or, or Nord Dame, it was a single building burned down. And yet it had some environmental consequences in its nearest surroundings outside of all the other damage that was caused by these tragedies. So even as a fire of a single building can do a lot of harm to the surroundings. And to understand that, like how can you. Understand what the impact will be. You, you have to calculate it in a way like we're engineers. We, we are supposed to not give a random answer based on our feeling or intuition, but we are all to calculate and then measure and, and model. So this is what. We were invited for in this chapter previously, as you've mentioned, we've been known for our work in wind and fire, coupled modeling and environmental modeling of the fire outcomes is largely related to the atmospheric winds. I mean, winds will be driving force for the, for the contamination. So it was very Easy to find a link between our work that was focusing on the winds and fires inside the buildings and extending it to understand how the winds affect the, the, the consequences of the fire outside of the building. We were focused on the inside, but it was very easy switch to also take a look at the greater picture outside now. One thing that we were doing, we were usually focusing on numerical modeling with CFD computational fluid dynamics, which is something that gives you great answers, but in the very near proximity of your building, because it's very detailed simulation. You can do a simulation of a whole city, but it's quite expensive and you probably don't want to do that all the time. So we thought with Karth or Thomas Thomas Lipsky from the Lulin technical university we thought, okay, so we have this understanding of the great model CFD on, on the near. There's plenty of other models being used, which I also do to my personal career and other developments previously, I have known we should like broaden it. So, so this is why in this in this chapter, we take the reader into a journey. First we try to discuss what. Is a fire mission. And there's a great chapter in the handbook about that as well. Like what is a fire? What does it emit? What can you expect from it as a source of heat and smoke, then we go through multiple types of of models with growing complexity. We start with something that's called the box models. Where you just assume a whole space is just one thing and you average things out within it. And that's the, that's probably the simplest way you can model contamination within an area, but you're. You are constrained by the size of the box. So, so it works only in, in certain scenarios. Then we go into Gian plume models where you have a single equation, AIAN distribution equation that allows you to calculate. If I admit this amount of smoking here, given that PSIC conditions around me, wind blowing in this direction, how much will go like 500 meters AF away, a kilometers, five kilometers away, 10 kilometers away. You can calculate this distribution. Now the problem with this is, is a very simple, easy calculation. It's just one equation you solve. You assume that the weather is not changing. Like, you know, you have one wind direction, one wind velocity, and it's constantly changing. And the bigger scale you go, like if I model a vehicle on a car, That's probably okay-ish to model it like that. But if you model like McMurray fault fire, where you have hundreds of square, hundreds of thousands of [00:25:00] square meters burning together, and the plume will take days to reach a different place in the us. You cannot model it like that. So you need to take this different things into account. So we go into more complex models there's models. I, I love them. They're called puff models where you it's more or less like Gian plume model, but you emit puffs of your fire and you model where the puff will go. So let's imagine. And each hour of a fire is a single puff and you just measure, okay, this puff goes here. This one goes here. This one goes here. And based on that, you, you have a more or less. Overall image on, on where the smoke will go. Then you can go into very complicated models. Laurian particle models, where you emit Laurian particles into, into three dimensional setting and you track where they go with allows you for very high, detailed investigation or where the smoke will go. and because of howing particles work, you can add chemistry to them. It's you can play a lot with them and ULA in models where you basically do more as a CFD of a, of a continent where you can really model the dispersion with a, with a complicated topography, complicated Windfield weather. At the cost, obviously it's not easy, but you can do that. So you have a hierarchy of, of models that you can use for a particular problem at hand. And of course, CD, which we many of these models, like there's their weakest thing is the nearfield, like what's happening directly near to the fire so that we cover with the CFD. So if you would like. Learn about this, the, the, the, the chapter and the handbook would be just for you. do you need this immediately in your life? I'm not sure, but if a day comes and you will need it, it's there waiting for you. So there's also a point of having a handbook. So if you, one day, find out yourself in the need for modeling things like this. Here you go. It's all there. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Gus Gagliardi: I think it's stunning rooting through your chapter and just like skimming through a little bit. How many modeling examples are in this chapter that you produce? I just was thinking about how much time it must have taken to even a symbol, all, all of these like different modeling examples and all that. I was like, man, I've seen CFD before and I saw like some of those. Like the cutouts and the nice renderings and like artistic renderings of the wind cityscape and stuff, which was neat that I'd seen from something you presented before. But lots of great. It's not just. Text. It's like a beautiful imagery of modeling and, and a lot more information and charts and, and, you know, distributions for what's happening with this material. Wojciech Węgrzyński: So thank you very much. We, we wanted it to like if, if this is the first and only piece of research, you. On this specific topic, modeling environmental impact of fires. We wanted it to at least give you a fairly complete overview. Obviously we're talking about a whole field of science. There's hundreds of people writing papers of that. There's dozens of models. We, we were, it was even, it would, it would be even impossible to give a list, a complete list of models, not, not even to go and, and, and discuss them. So we focused on the ones that we knew are most popular or the ones we had some experience in. I mean, it, it is not an exclu exhaustive list. I, I guess, at, at some stage we'll build up on that and then present a more complete image. I think for, well, it took a few months of work. So for the time associated to make this chapter happen, I think we did a, a fairly good work completing all of this together, compiling it into, into one one piece of content. Gus Gagliardi: The chapter that that now is, is in the hands of engineers to. Yeah. So like how long did it take to like physically write it? Because I've been doing more technical writing recently and I'm so bad at it. I'm not good at all. and so I was just looking at this document and how like, Nice and polished. It is, and like the, the terminology and everything flowing and having nice little poetic phrasing in there. And I'm like, this would take me forever to write this. I can, I can tell you, let me find a manuscript folder on my, yeah, from the first draft till the one that we've sent. To [00:30:00] Brian. It was four months of work. Wow. Yeah, it was four months. I remember quite vividly. I I've spent my entire Christmas break reading literature and, and writing that it was fun. Wojciech Węgrzyński: Like 10 hours a day reading it. Oh my God. And writing, I like this. It's not it was not Pain. I, I, I, to some extent enjoyed, enjoyed it. It was nice to learn. The more pain comes when you have to like rephrase stuff and then put it into context. So, yeah, it, it was few months. And then obviously it was like two years in editing, you know, many people having it in their hands. Criticizing making changes, editorials and, and stuff like that. So the final product is a product of, of the work of many people. And it's not something you just go in and ride overnight, but yeah. Okay. Just writing it was months . Wow. That's incredible. That's cool. I don't think I've ever written anything that should have taken months in months. Gus Gagliardi: oh, I mean maybe a term paper as a student that I put off for too long, took me months to write, but I guarantee I wasn't writing that whole time. No, no. It's like, and I don't think I would have time to write it now again with the podcast on, on the, with the podcast project on my back. So I'm not sure if I'll ever author another. Piece like that. Well, maybe I will. We'll see. I'm sure you will. I'm sure you will. Maybe you'll get that patron one day and then you'll be able to outsource some of this editing but no I wanted to talk about like, it's such a complex process of, you know, Just like, I'd like to talk with you about just like some of the basic factors for like these modelings, but I know that that's just like, what's the basic factors of fire, which, you know, but also a topic I'd like to discuss with you is just like, so if we. Had infinite computing power mm-hmm like, what would we be able to do with these like models? You know, like a CFD for a whole city. Like if you could like model whatever, pick a reasonable sized city, but if you could model a reasonable size city and you had infinite computing power, could you get a, like a reasonable approximate approximation of like, Wind distribution of pollutants over a city from a fire. Wojciech Węgrzyński: I mean, like. I was seeing you having some examples of the different mm-hmm zone modeling and like near and the, the different compartments. But yeah, I just wanted to ask that. So my brain always jump. So what's the extreme, yeah, we, we, we don't have to go into abstract thinking, I, I, I think I can give you examples of, of citywide simulations, because we are actually doing them right now. Maybe not on a moderately size city, but on like a square kilometer of a city which is like quite a large chunk of a large city. So, so it takes us using our 128 cars of 128 CPUs. It takes us 24 hours to, to simulate a fire with all the distributions around it. So. It's not it's not something that will come in the future. It's something that we will already have. It's just not, not that many people are using that yet. If you wanted to seem like what would we do if we had crazy amount of power and like infinite infinite resources. I'm not like you can spend whatever amount of resources you want to increase the fidelity of your simulations. You can always use the smaller resolutions of your mesh. You can always use more complicated models. Does it translate to a better simulations? Not necessarily it's it's not such a direct link. I mean, it it's, it's a complicated, I'm actually gonna have a whole podcast episode with Jason Floyd about that, like in a month. so there's an, an, the answer is, is it's complicated, but not so easy. One thing that we like the, the. Issues are with the problem definition, not with the solution. You know, if you think about wind, like what's wind, like what direction, what velocity, what gusts, what we, we there's even a thing called the atmospheric stability. And based on that, you get different wind profiles. If you have a sunny clear day, or if you have a very. Cloud layer you'll have completely different atmospheric conditions. In, in those two days, you can have a wind in the winter. You can have a wind in, in the summer. So, you know, the, the amount of different wind context you can run into is, is endless, like in endless amount of fires you can. So if I had an access to infinite Computational power. [00:35:00] I would do infinite number of simulations, like concurrently to each other to really work out probability distributions and see a risk based image of on how Wind and fire go together. Like I would love to know with probability of this amount of percent, the wind impact will be this. And with this probability, it will be like this. And if the wind is extreme, but the probability is very low, the impact is extreme. Or maybe it's not, I don't know. Maybe with the wind that is very highly prob. Low velocity flow that occurs every other day. Maybe the impact is the biggest. I don't know that it's something that we're currently actually researching in, in a project that we're carrying at ITB. And we're somewhere in the middle of it. We are in the numerical calculations now to really measure. Impact of wind different types of wind, different, different directions in our context on how the consequences of the fire in an urban settlement are. And then we'll be able to, to say to what extent extended this something important or, or not based on risk. So yeah, I would, I would spend. Infinite resources on being able to do risk. not necessarily, you know, doing the fanciest simulation. I can. Mm, that makes sense. Yeah, I guess that's the whole thing is like understanding the very fluid and variable nature of the, the wind and just how quickly things can change the probabilistic. You know, kind of distribution of what could happen and the dispersion of the pollutants, I guess that makes sense of, you know, You know, like, do we even know enough about like the way that the wind and the atmosphere to even make that model? Yeah. Even if you had infinite like resources you know, like you're saying the valuable use of those of that. I I'll give you. I'll I'll give you for a context, a nice example. Like a few weeks ago, there was a severe drought in, in, in Europe heat wave. And there was like one of the hottest days ever in, in, in UK. They had a massive number of fires in London that day, like massive number. Like they, they compared it like it was the worst days. Sinces world war II in London in terms of the amount of fires. Wow. And because I'm involved in the biolife project I'm on the WhatsApp there. And there was a discussion there, like, and Gilman was mentioning and the wind was like very low that day, like four meters per second. And I checked it for London and it seems to be somewhere around the average or median wind and We understand, or we know that stronger wind usually leads to worse outcomes of fires. Like fire can spread, can grow bigger. It's it's usually connected with the worse outcomes. So if on the west day, since world war II, we had wind that was like around 50% chance and it was a wind that. Possibly not contribute that much to the damage. Like it could have been much, much worse with the worse wind. And if the probability of that was 50%, we essentially won a coin us, you know, like if it was not, the outcomes could have been so, so much worse. So this is why we need to. Understand that, and then be able to, to model that, to predict that because if this time we won a coin, us, what's gonna happen on the next worst day. Since world war II, will we lose the coin us? And how horrible will it be? What should we. What should we be ready for? Like, do we understand that as a society? I don't think so. So to, to gain insight into these questions, you first have to solve the fundamentals, which is how do you model them both together, wind and fire. Gus Gagliardi: Yeah. And that's what we're trying to do. Yeah, that's awesome. I like that real world context that Shere providing, you know, I think that's something that over the, like the history of our discipline has always been such a useful teaching tool and just way to ground the importance of what we do. You. It seems like society. It's very easy to forget, you know these tragedies when you exist, you know, most of your daily life is not impacted. And then you'll see a flash of something like this on the news. Mm-hmm like what you're just saying about London and. It having its worst day for fire since world war II. And it's like, you know, when you can bring to mind something so visceral like [00:40:00] that, it really has a great brings home. The meaning of like what we do and Notre Dame and gr fell. I mean, two tragedies that. They're still talking about to this day. I mean, they're still litigating Grandville. It would've happened in like 20 17, 20 16, something like that. Yeah, I can't remember, but it's just incredible how much impact and cultural significance that these fires and this subject has on people and it just kind of. Goes under the radar for the culture of how we exist. We just kind of forget about it. Go back to, we are dealing with very real problems in fire, like we're in. I mean, it, it, in a way it is abstract in a way it is something very. Weird complex difficult to understand. You start to realize the complexities, they, they prevent you from answering most of the questions usually, but in the end you have down to earth problems like real buildings that burn down real environments that suffer real people that suffer and, and yeah, that's what, that's why we are doing this difficult work to. To, to, to help that and, and, you know, being down to earth and being able to relate the, the science to the real world problems. I think it's an engineering science for a reason. Yeah. We, we have to solve the problems without knowing everything first. Yeah. So I feel like I you've talked, you've covered it pretty well, but just like, so why. I guess I'll just ask, instead of trying to put words in your mouth. Yeah. Why, what do you find compelling about like wind engineering or like the computational aspect of wind engineering or trying to be better about not like asking fully loaded questions and just like, obviously pushing my thoughts or opinions on people. When I am trying to do an interview. It's cool. Yeah, I, I, I like computational wind engineering is is something that I find. Interesting. I mean, we are using the same tools for, for fleet mechanics in, in fire safety engineering and in computational wind engineering. But the culture is very different. Wojciech Węgrzyński: They approach their problems in a different way. Like you have different scales in, in, in space. For example, like in wind engineering, you would consider a building and you can go away with two meter mesh on the building because it's a big block. But if you consider fire you, like, you need to model like these tiny details that will influence the fire. So here we, we are in a kind of different world than when wind engineers in terms what we are expected from our models to be in time scale. In wind engineering, you can most likely go away with with steady state simulations, something you never see in fire, because fire is a transient event. You have to like the time, the time aspect of a fire is fundamental to the fire, to the safety to E everything happens on the timeline. In winds, not, not really. It's like probability and just a single, single thing that happens at the time. So, so you go away with steady. So in, in the end, I mean, the tools are the same. I mean, we're also talking about building, so the thing you're modeling is the same, but you're doing it in a different way. And. This is compelling. You know, if you are a, if you're a guy who's been doing fire modeling, they're all professional career, you know, building these buildings, putting fires inside modeling, HVC systems, smoke control systems, doing the same thing over and over and over again, and then comes someone and tells you, now you have to do it. Like I forget about this interior. It's not relevant. It's, it's kind of refreshing, you know, to do something in a completely different way. And when you try to combine both, that's where the magic starts because you cannot simply combine them. Like you cannot put a fire analysis inside of wind analysis. It will not work. It, it it's, it's, it's a different thing. You cannot just drop wind randomly on your, on your fire. By ex you just extend the domain by 10 meters and drop wind. It's not gonna work. It's not wind that you're modeling. It becomes pretty interesting when you try to model the interface between them. It's not so simple. And I, I mean, I, I like dealing with difficult problems, so I, I really enjoyed being exposed to this one and trying to maybe not solve, but at least Try to work in this difficult setting. So yeah, that, that is rewarding and compelling and interesting for sure. For me using the, the fundamentals of computational wind engineering in fire safety engineering. Gus Gagliardi: Yeah, I think that's awesome. That's funny that you're like, oh, well, it seems like you guys are playing on easy mode over here with [00:45:00] steady state equations and yeah. You know, just like, I mean, I know it's a different set of problems, but, but then again like, and they can look at us and they, they, they can Ask us, like what's your time steps? Wojciech Węgrzyński: What's your what, how, how do you solve the, the chemistry of fire? Oh, we simplify that. Oh, you are playing easy mode. You're simplifying it. It way too much. They do take significant care in, in boundary layer problems, which we all. Like not everyone at ologists boundary layers in, in fire safety engineering yet to solve with boundary layers in mind when you're solving your flows. And these, these guys would be very serious about them. So, so it's like we oversimplify something horribly in fire as well. That is very exotic from the view of the other field and vice versa, I guess, I guess that's with the, every field of engineering, the users model. Right. Yeah, that's definitely true. Gus Gagliardi: Yeah. We just know the set of parameters and the distributions that we've simplified our equations around and, you know, you can't account for everything. So that makes sense. Well, I wanted to just ask you to zoom out a little bit and just speak more broadly about your career experience and just ask you like, you know on top of this endeavor you had going, what kind of trends have you been seeing just in your professional career? Wojciech Węgrzyński: It could be in the lab or in your project work. I, I guess I can talk broadly about, Hm, fire engineering as I view it. One trend that is really emerging is, is artificial intelligence. And. it's it's a thing that's in one way it's a black box. No one really understands how it works. It opens a whole world of possibilities that you would not even imagine without it yet. It's difficult to, to handle interpret and make sure that you have it under control when you're using it. So. It's definitely something growing and it, it will be growing and it will be amazing in the future, but together it's gonna be a hell of a challenge, you know, to make sure we are doing it in a great way. Like, think about how people can misuse CFD. Without understanding it and then multiply it by a hundred. That's how that's how difficult the AI can be if you, if you misuse it too much. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's a challenge, but it's an emerging trend that I see more and more in the years. And there are great people working on ITZ last year in Clemson. There's CNN, Wongan in Hong Kong, protecting university and many others. Who are carving the path for everyone else in, in fire to, to use these magnificent tools, you know? So yeah, that's, that's a trend for sure. Yeah, it's so wild. I you're right. I mean, I think AI is just in such the early days, you know, I was looking at like Microsoft outlook documentation and I was looking, they had like little e-learning and I was looking through their courses yesterday, looking for how to do something. And like they had. Like 80% of their documentation was about like, or their little courses were about AI. And it was like, what really is this? Why is it like, like how to, how to create a culture within your company? That's AI ready? And like all this talk about AI and I'm just thinking, as you're saying this, like this is coming and it's going to be a huge part of probably like society. Within our lifetimes. And then the next, probably, I don't know how long wouldn't hazard a guess, but I mean, guess if we don't screw up, it's going to be magnificent. Like you will like if we make it work and validate it and make sure we are using the correct tools for correct problems, AI could take over significant amount of repetitive and Non-critical tasks, fire safety engineers are doing. To allow them to focus on the things only they can solve, you know, viewing, building as a holistic sociotechnical system, right? No one, but fire safety engineer can do that. No algorithm will ever be able to do that. You need a human being with a great understanding of fire building building physics to comprehend. And we will meet these engineers on the same end. You don't want these engineers to focus on simple things that can be solved by an algorithm. So if we can find this beautiful golden center of having the tool, not misusing it and benefiting from it fuel. It would be a beautiful world. [00:50:00] I'm just not sure if we can get to that point before we either break it or ban it, you know? Gus Gagliardi: So yeah. Well, I'm a, I'm a cynic by nature and all I can think about is your commentary in your chapter about the error percentages before we developed some of the more. Modern models for CFD and how it was like 20 to two to 200% or something. Yeah. You know, scatters on. Yeah. But I can just, I don't know. I think that. Maybe I'm just cynical for human nature, but about how people will use a tool with that kind of horsepower behind it. But I'm sure just as in everything in life, there will be people who do it the right way and people who do it the wrong way. Exactly. Yeah. And that's at the same time, it's, it is one of the biggest opportunities and perhaps one of the biggest challenges we have, you know, because we know it's powerful. Wojciech Węgrzyński: We know you can use different like a, a iOS of course, just a name. Tons of different techniques and tools. And it's just, just, just a catch phrase. It's wider than CFD. Even like it, it has multiple flavors, multiple ways how you can implement multiple places in which. You can use computer to help you understand your data sets and problems at hand. So we really need to learn how to use it. We need to learn how to control it. We need to learn how to know that the predictions of it are credible or not. This will be very difficult to solve, but if we get there, it's gonna be fun. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure we will gotta figure out how, how I, how we fit into that. Gus Gagliardi: But it sounds like you got a good idea with still providing that critical large scale oversight for the, that can't easily be reproduced with the algorithm. Yep. But yeah, I guess just thinking about like What kind of resources do you like to use? Wojak it could be professional or I'd even take a non-professional podcast recommendation. If you like to listen to podcasts or whatever you'd like to offer up to the viewers. Or if you've been watching something good lately, I don't, it's up to you. Dealer's choice at this point. You've done outstanding so far. So yeah. Cool, man. Shameless plug. Like there's the reasons right now, you know, I produce it. Wojciech Węgrzyński: it's, it's a great reason. But if you ask me where I get my resources, I I'm a scientist. I, I mainly rely on scientific papers which is very difficult to recommend to people who are non scientists, because you will be very frustrated by the way, how they are written and their hard to understand and comprehend. It's very rarely you find an answer to a problem in your paper, in the, in the scientific papers. So yeah, that's what we scientists have to work with. And I guess there's a. Space for people like Gus, me and others who try to, to build a bridge between engineers and scientists. So there's, there are credible journals, fire sector, journal, fire technology, which are great sources of knowledge, inspiration. As I said, difficult to, to comprehend that points. And and obviously behind the paywall, I can go whole day about how paywalls are destroying the scientific environment and how much I had hates that. But yeah, that's, that's how it is my. I really I think it benefit a lot from being a member of like SAP and IFSS organizations. These memberships like give me the, the ability to be part of engineering community and what they produce is, is absolutely outstanding. And I must say I learn more from being part of their projects, like being part of committees, being part of even, you know, writing that hand. I would never, never learn that much about modeling. As I did, when trying to summarize my knowledge and write the, the handbook chapter and the same goes into committees. If you join a committee and you have to work at a problem and try to convey that knowledge to others, you learn so much your own on your own. So. Not just consuming content and knowledge, but trying to create new knowledge, maybe a best way to, to gain new knowledge. So I would absolutely recommend participating in in the efforts of this bodies and Possibilities are endless because the needs are so huge. There's always a committee to join and participate. So, so these are these are great things. And outside of firearms, outside of engineering, I'm a huge fan of, of fin and smart, passive income podcasts. That is an amazing ecosystem of, of very positive [00:55:00] way of thinking. About entrepreneurship and just life in general, it I've gained so much from listening to patents. He's been an amazing mentor even though he I've never met him, he doesn't know about my existence. So I view him as, you know, a God in the podcast world, but yeah, it's, it's, it's been I I'm sharing, I I'm on his journey. For years now. And I enjoy every step of that all the way. I highly recommend smart, passive income and, and just Google path. You'll find him. Awesome. Well, I appreciate that Woj. I feel like that's a nice, neat bow on the podcast. I thank you for coming on. That was awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much guys. Gus Gagliardi: Looking forward to the next one. Sounds good. Thanks for listening. Everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.

This episode is the second solocast covering Fire Pumps. We deep dive into the code requirements for fire pumps. Tune in if you want to hear a detailed discussion code requirements for fire pumps.   First Episode on Fire Pumps https://firecodetech.com/9-solocast-an-introduction-to-fire-pumps

Revit tools, the future of BIM, and how to problem solve are all discussed in in this episode of Fire Code Tech. Majd joins the interview from Estonia and shows great passion for all things BIM.    Bird Tools Website: https://www.birdtools-developers.com/index.html YouTube Channel:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjDIGX1bwzw  

In this solocast episode we are talking about initiation devices! What is the difference between a smoke detector and a smoke alarm? What are the codes and standards pertaining to smoke detectors? What are the different coverage approaches and types of smoke detector? Tune in to find out about all these topics and more.  

This episode is a special one! The podcast centers around a communications and marketing professional. We discuss parallels between her career and fire and life safety professionals. Kaelynn Gagliardi gives great tips on writing from her time as a professional journalist. Also we talk about user experience, content creation, and branding. Oh and by the way its my wife! Big shout out to the her she is the first Fire Code Tech fan ever.    Kaelynn's Writing Tip Links:  https://copyblogger.com/ https://www.grammarly.com/ https://open.spotify.com/episode/2HPPqYzl0i3sRdo5fCEuNB?si=0XaBc6bQR5iwdeFAyXO6ig

In honor of the Fourth of July this solocast is dedicated to fireworks. We break down firework fire protection through the discussion of key terminology, hazard determination, codes and standards, and protection strategies.    NFPA 1124:  https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=1124 NFPA 1123:  https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=1123 NFPA Brochure Fireworks Fire Safety https://www.nfpa.org/Public-Education/Fire-causes-and-risks/Seasonal-fire-causes/Fireworks      

Welcome to episode 38 of the Fire Code Tech Solocast series. In this episode we are speaking about 3d modeling software. In this episode we discuss the history of revit and stick around till the end to get my top 4 tips for gaining proficiency.   Free Revit Course:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEAg47jdYMs

Christian Jacobs is a chief fire prevention officer for Grissom Air Force Base. In this interview we talk about community risk reduction, fire service data, and tips for professionals.    Fire Dawg Podcast Appearance https://firedawg.us/podcast/the-firedawg-podcast-coffee-break-episode-5-data-collection-use-implications-christian-jacobs/ Grease Fire Video:  https://www.facebook.com/christian.jacobs.12/videos/394425710593617/

Hello All! Welcome to episode 37 of the Fire Code Tech solocast series. In this episode we are talking about freeze protection options for water based fire suppression systems. Tune into this episode if you want to hear a high level overview of dry pipe, preaction, dry barrel sprinklers and design considerations for all the above!

On this episode of Fire Code Tech we are speaking with Bill Denney about an alternative fire suppression technology. Bill breaks down common occupancies aersol fire suppression is utilized for, design considerations, and lessons learned from his career.    bdenney@hochiki.com https://www.hochikiamerica.com/firepro-xtinguish-landing

Hello all! In this weeks episode we are talking about life safety and egress components. This solocast breaks down exit, exit acess, and exit discharge and the theory behind chapter 10 in the Internation Building Code. Tune in if you want to buff up on your life safety terminology.    Visual Aid for Egress components https://blog.lapeyrestair.com/exit-discharge   Patreon Link for more Solocasts patreon.com/firecodetech  

Welcome to episode 53 of Fire Code Tech. On this episode we are speaking with Drew Slocum from the Fire Protection Podcast about professional development, podcasting, working for tech focused companies in fire and life safety, listing process, and more!   Inspect Point: https://www.inspectpoint.com/ Fire Protection Podcast: https://fire-protection-podcast.simplecast.com/

This solocast episode covers key definitions, equipment considerations and design details for antifreeze systems. Tune in to find out about some of the factors you should consider when evaluating these systems. 

This episode is an interview of Richard Alpert a fire protection engineering with a career in the fire service. Mr. Alpert is a Senior Fire Protection Engineer with GHD, a global engineering consulting firm in their Richmond, VA office.  He has over 37 years of experience in the design, construction management, and commissioning of public, private, and commercial projects including projects for high rise residential and office buildings, sports arenas, historical and cultural buildings, and government facilities. In addition to his engineering career Mr. Alpert has been involved with the volunteer fire service for over 45 years and has served in many leadership positions within local fire departments including those of Vice President and Chief. He holds several national certifications including ICC Building Plans Reviewer and Pro Board Fire Officer II.   Standpipe Article:  https://www.sprinklerage.com/standpipe-systems-design-installation-requirements/

Hello All! On this episode we are revisiting high-piled storage. On the 34th solocast episode I get into storage sprinklers and information about how NFPA 13 has changed from the 2016 - 2019 edition for how it addresses storage.    NFPA 2016 - 2019 Translator https://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/AboutTheCodes/13/NFPA_13_2016_2019_Roadmap.pdf

Welcome to episode 51 of Fire Code Tech. On this episode we are speaking with Ernesto Janica on professional development, electrical engineering, IEEE, open source programs for community outreach and much more. Tune in on this episode to hear tips for how you can learn the fundamentals of fire alarm systems. 

On this episode we are speaking about manual fire alarm boxes. Codes standards, definitions, and installation details are all discussed in this solocast.

Welcome to episode 50 of Fire Code Tech! This podcast is a cross over episode with the host of the Fire Science Show Wojciech Węgrzyński. The conversation covers background stories for both podcast hosts, problems with the industry and how to bridge the gap between problems in industry.    1925 Building Code Link: Check page 19 https://bit.ly/3LTiPAd   Fire Science Show https://www.firescienceshow.com/

Aaron Johnson  00:03 Welcome to the fire protection industry FERS virtual Summit. Today I'm here with Gus. Gus, thanks for coming and being part once you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself, tell us who you are, where you started, how you got to where you are today and where you're going or what's next.   Gus Gagliardi  00:16 Yeah, so my name is Gus Gagliardi, I'm a registered professional engineer, I work in the construction industry, I do design engineering for a variety of existing and new construction facilities. Started off with a degree in fire protection and safety technology from Oklahoma State, moved on and had a fire suppression role right out of college, and really learned about the nuts and bolts of how to put sprinkler systems together. Spent the last five years almost in my career at FSB, a pretty large, full service any firm in Oklahoma City, the largest think oklahoma city owned firm. So yeah, a lot of hanger work a lot of Department of Defense work high industrial facilities. And then yeah, now I just started a new role as a fire protection engineer at rated engineering, and going to be doing a lot of similar work with the hangars and the DoD work, but also looking to incorporate the full scope of what a fire protection engineer can do as far as work in consulting services. So yeah, that's a little bit about my elevator pitch. Oh, and I didn't mention that. Excuse me, sorry. I am the host of industry, first podcast, fire co tech, where we discuss everything fire protection, and we just basically interview professionals. And we also have solid cast episodes where I do deep dives into topics like codes and standards, specific technologies, and just a variety of fire and life safety topics. So yeah, that's a bit about my career and background in my elevator pitch here. And thanks for having me.   Aaron Johnson  02:09 Awesome. And thanks for being here. So that sounds starting a new thing is always exciting. So I'm glad that for that for you, I'm sure. Sure you have some mixed emotions about that.   Gus Gagliardi  02:18 Oh, yeah. It's been such a blessing. My, my last five years at FSB was so awesome. Like being a part of a firm that's full service. So I got to, you know, work with structural engineers, electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, you know, architects, interior designers. And so it's been great cutting my teeth, with projects and getting to collaborate in house with a variety of design professionals, and just really just to learn so much in the last five years. So it's been tough saying goodbye, these last couple of weeks, but super excited for the new gig and the chance to lean into fire protection some more and, and really discover everything that FP can do. So excited. Excited. Yeah, mix bittersweet, though. You're right.   Aaron Johnson  03:05 Awesome. Yep. Now I've been in where you have to move, or can you stay where you're at and still do the job?   Gus Gagliardi  03:10 No. So my last commute was 18 miles. And this next commute is only four miles. So super stoked to get such a good opportunity. And it's, like 10 minutes away from my house. So with all the lights red, so it's a good deal. I'm stoked on it. So yeah, super excited.   Aaron Johnson  03:30 Awesome. Well, let's get into some other stuff. Thanks for sharing all that. And I'm happy for you looking forward to the new thing that you're going to be doing. So we're gonna come back to your podcast a little bit later, because I want to really dig a little bit deeper into that into this process in what you do. But first of all, tell us about some associations or groups that you're involved in, and what kind of value that you gained from being involved in those groups.   Gus Gagliardi  03:50 You know, actually, I found this most recent job opportunity was for through professional organizations, I'm part of SF PE, you know, I've been a member of a member of NFPA, and National Fire Protection Association, society, fire protection engineers, I love perfect societies, there's so much benefit to be gained from them, like, business is all about personal connections and business connections and genuine connections. And so a great way to develop those connections and maintain that knowledge base that you need as a professional is to be involved in professional societies. You know, that's kind of a core tenet of what we talked about on the podcast is like, how to say professionally relevant and professional societies are a great way to do that. You know, most societies bring in professional leaders to speak about, you know, different topics and things to keep you relevant in what's going on in the industry. And so there's so much to be gained networking and having the opportunity to build a web of professionals that you can leave If you have problems in the industry, that's invaluable. I mean, the ability to say, hey, you know, person that I met individual that I met who's a fire suppression contractor or a fire alarm contractor, you know, I'm not knowledgeable on Vesta, can you? Can you help me out and like some of the design practices for this system are, you know, kind of rough order of magnitude pricing for this system. And so, you know, you really, as a professional to have all the tools that you need for your toolkit, you, in my opinion, have to be involved in professional societies, because if you don't, you're not, you're limiting yourself in your options for how to solve problems. And as a professional, you get paid to solve problems. So that's probably a couple of the biggest advantages I see in being involved in professional societies. I named SFP, NFPA, hfsa, American fire sprinkler Association, nfsa, national fire sprinkler Association, AFA American fire alarm Association. Those are probably some of the biggest ones that throw out free webinars, and I have a lot of relevant system information for my field, but they get super niche, you could go all the way down to specific occupancies. Like there's a whole bunch of hangar specific ones, as I'm sure you know, like MRO facilities, sorry, I got a bug in my throat.   Aaron Johnson  06:31 No problem. But yeah. Awesome. And well, thanks for sharing. That's a lot that I know that alphabet soup can go on for on and on forever. Yeah, no, no, thank you for sharing that. And sharing those associations are, what they are and kind of what you gain from them. So let's go back a little bit and talk about kind of focus more on the podcast on that podcasting. So you said you're your host, and started this podcast. So So why did you do that? Why did you want to do that? What kind of gap in industry? Do you think that it filled? What were what were your motivations for starting that? And kind of what were the steps you took to get that started?   Gus Gagliardi  07:03 Yeah, so I don't think it filled the gap in the industry, but as a professional, a couple years out of, you know, about maybe one or two years into my time at FSB, so maybe like two or three years into being a professional. I was like, Well, I want to know more. And there's only so many resources that a company can give you while they need to maintain production of what product they are selling. And so as somebody who is somebody who wants to learn and somebody who wants to keep a competitive edge, I just thought, how do I connect with people? How do I, you know, make connect these dots. And so, for me, I'm an avid podcast listener. And so I took what I knew, which was fire protection, engineering, and podcasting, and in the confluence of that area, I thought, well, maybe I can leverage this to learn more, and provide a resource to people like me, you know, who want to know more about the industry, but maybe don't have the facilities to, you know, find this information out, you know, how many times as a two year or three year professional get to reach out to people on NFPA codes and standards and talk to them about the codes and standards process. And you know, how that works and technical related information to those codes and standards. I mean, it has given me a seat at the table in which I would have never had, if I would not have started the podcast and really, I think has accelerated my learning process. Like I'd say, at least two or three years for, you know, just my ability to find out information about topics. So I think that was a big reason why I started it. And, you know, the gap that it started to fill in the industry, I still think there's a huge gap to fill. I hope that more people get into it. I hope that we can continue to foster this network of professionals who are looking to put out a variety of content around fire and life safety. I'm not somebody who thinks that there is a finite amount of, you know, content or consumption for good, good fire and life safety information. I think the more the merrier. And I hope more people get into it. But yeah, as far as steps to get there. And, you know, I would tell people that if you have interest in doing something, a blog, or a podcast or YouTube videos, I'd say just figure it out. Just go do it because there is no huge there is no huge financial or technical barrier to go do these things. Really. The only barrier to entry is your own volition and time to go do these things. You know if you have those two things, I think you could get by with a really cheap mic and a cheap computer. And you could probably put something out there that somebody would find interesting and reach out and tell you, Hey, man, I think this is awesome. And if you did it for a couple years, you probably find out that you're starting to get good at it. So that's my, that's my piece of advice on that.   Aaron Johnson  10:20 Thanks for sharing. I like that, you know, talk about that gave you a seat at the table. And I kind of had the same experience when I started blogging, about I guess it's been about 17 years ago now or 15 years ago, started doing just, you know, regular blogs, blogs are kind of new back then. And so, but I found the same thing, right, again, got your seat at the table, when you share those articles and and comment I got to interact with people from all over the world, instead of just my little community. So awesome.   Gus Gagliardi  10:46 Yeah, it did. Why didn't your your scope of influence or your, you know, ability to network and, you know, like we talked about before connections and, and ability to problem solve? And you know, you talk to me about reaching out to people and get an information for articles. That's so powerful. I mean, like, to give you that avenue to do that.   Aaron Johnson  11:07 Yep, absolutely. Absolutely. So, thank you. So how does the how does this kind of decide project this kind of hobby project? How does it impact your day job? And what practical or personal professional benefits? Have you realized from it?   Gus Gagliardi  11:23 You know, I would say that on a day to day basis, it's pretty minimal on how it impacts my day job. I mean, I send out I'll send out a couple emails a week to invite guests, I spend the time on the weekends, editing podcasts, maybe like, anywhere from two to four hours producing social media copy, you know, show notes, and mixing and editing podcasts. So functionally, that's what it looks like, as far as time impact. Of course, there were startup energy involved, that we're not talking about. This is me in steady state after I've been doing it for coming up on two years in April. But, you know, what is it given me in my career, it's given me so much, I don't think that I would have this job opportunity that I do now, without the knowledge base, and like the competitive edge that I've gained from, you know, Fostering Connections and becoming a professional who has just leaned into networking and tried to be more competitive, I don't think that I would have the same opportunities, I don't think that I would have, you know, I don't think I would be the professional that I am today without the podcast. So that's kind of a broad statement. But I truly believe that and because, you know, you get to a point in your career, where you're at a company, you may be in a set track of what this experience can bring you. And so how do you differentiate? Do you get certifications? Do you, you know, take on a new, important valuable skill set, you know, how do you make yourself a more competitive professional. So for me, it's, you know, along with my technical expertise, and willing to learn about things in the industry that are difficult and valuable, I think that it is given me a huge advantage over my peers. But you know, that's just my two cents. I'm sure I'm inflated about that idea.   Aaron Johnson  13:26 No, it's true. Awesome. Well, thanks. Thank you for sharing. So you do have a lot of great guests on the podcast. I know, we've kind of talked in the past on, you know, how do you get these great guests that come onto your podcast? I'm sure you get, you probably get more nose than yeses, or get just ignored emails. But how do you get the guests that you do have? How do you get them to come onto your podcast? And how do you find these two or three people that you email every week?   Gus Gagliardi  13:47 You know, I think that it's easier than you think it's, it's easier than you think. And I'd say my hit ratio is probably closer to like, like 50 or 60%. Then, like, like 40 or 30%. And you'd be surprised. I mean, so people are professionals, and they they are in fire in my safety, their whole lives. They have fascinating jobs. I, I've traveled all across the country. I've been in aircraft hangars that were built in World War Two, you know, I have, you know, worked in probably more than a dozen states, probably closer to 20 states across the US you think I don't want to talk about that. You think that I don't love what I do. And I'm not passionate about that. You think other people in the industry, who have these great careers and experiences don't want to tell people and give people a leg up for their professional careers? No, you look for the passion, I would say and find a guests, people who people who are passionate about they what they do and their involvement in professional societies. Those are the people who are interested after a while you kind of get a sense for who would be interested in this sort of thing. And once you can sniff that out, it's a lot easier to find guests. So, um, I think that there's so many incredible stories in probably a lot of industries, but especially in fire and life safety. And so that process really just looks like a lot of LinkedIn searches or being knowledgeable about industry related topics or fields and searching through, you know, oh, I read a good magazine article. Oh, who's the author on this magazine article? Oh, this guy says, did he, you know, works at the Smithsonian? Oh, that sounds like a good episode. And so, you know, I reached out to Michael Kilby. And he's gracious enough to come on the podcast. And he sits on two NSPA boards or, you know, committees, and for one for historical and cultural museums and another one that I've never heard of, and he's willing to come talk to me about how to protect extremely valuable assets. And so I think it's easier, it's easier than it sounds. And that's some of that barrier to entry is like, how difficult you think it's going to be?   Aaron Johnson  16:07 Good. Yeah, that would be the the fear that people have in getting started. So thanks for kind of alleviating that for some of us. So yeah, I've been on your show a few times. And some other people have been and so the, the thing that we all have in common, we talk about gustas podcast is that Gus is the easiest guy to talk to, when we do these shows. So what do you think it is about you or your style that makes you so easy to talk to?   Gus Gagliardi  16:31 Man, I just I love people. And I've always been interested in personal stories. If you don't like people, and you don't like talking to people, then podcasting is probably not for you. But for me, I have no trouble talking. And I have no trouble being interested in people and really caring about what's going on in their life. And personally, what moves them. I'd listened to I'd listened, I've listened to all kinds of podcasts. And I used to I was learning how to code. So I would listen to this podcast called, I think it was learned to code with me or something. And basically, it was all framed around personal life stories and how people have overcome adversity and not always found that so compelling. So I've taken little bits and pieces of podcasting style and personal interaction that I've found really touching and compelling. And I try to embody those in the podcast that I have. So I think part of it is genuinely interested in this stuff, you know, it really, if you're not interested, it comes across in the podcast, it's gonna come off flat, you're gonna, it's got to be weak, you know, it's, and people can sense that. And it takes about three seconds for people to sniff people being not genuine and tune out and log off. And so, you know, because there's a billion different things for content you can get these days. So you have to be invested in what you're doing. You have to care, you have to want to talk or else. It's not gonna work.   Aaron Johnson  18:02 Right, good. Good. So you mentioned some pot, you're, you're an avid podcast listener listener. So what are some podcasts that you listen to?   Gus Gagliardi  18:10 So I guess I could break it down into like, a number of categories? Because, you know, I vacillate between, you know, do I want something interesting? You know, you want to do something like Stuff You Should Know. You want to laugh? Do you want something like two bears? When cave? It's just you know, irreverent comedy and kind of ridiculousness? Are you do you have a personal hobby or project you want to get into? You know, is there something about cooking you want to know about? You know, I used to listen to used to be a great podcast. It's changed host now, but it was like about people for who worked for like getting Bon appetit. Now, not Bon appetit. But some other food magazine in New York, I can't remember. But they would just go over like people's cookbooks and things. So, I mean, I listened to everything you could think of. And, you know, I'll go through periods where I'm listening to only podcasts. And like, you know, I'll burn through like, six to 10 of these a week. Easy. And then I'll switch to something like audio books, or I'll switch to something like all music or so. I think that's why I knew that it was going to work fire Kotek was going to work is because I know how I consume podcasts. And I was like, I don't just like one podcast. I like 20 podcasts. And if it's good, I don't care how many podcasts there are, I'm going to find time to lean into that content. So yeah, that's a little bit of my background on podcasts. It's always hard to answer that because I'm always vacillating between. I like the new stuff as much as I like the well established. There's something fun about being involved when a podcast just starts and you feel like you're a part of something a little bit. It's fun to have that like sense of community that people have, even though you really don't know the person at all.   Aaron Johnson  19:59 Yeah, Awesome. Yeah. My thing with the new startups is you get really attached to the show, then they stop after like five episodes disappear. You know? Yeah,   Gus Gagliardi  20:08 one thing, the number one thing with any content is be consistent. If people, that's one of the hugest benefits that people get out of podcasts. I know, every Monday, that x podcast comes out, and that gives me comfort. And that gives me enjoyment. And I get a sense of relief as I drive to work on Monday because I get to listen to x podcast. If you can't provide that, then nobody's gonna stick around to hear what you got to say. So first and foremost, be consistent. Otherwise, you can just forget about it. You know, don't even start. Don't even start if you don't want to be consistent because I've seen most podcasts burnout, and it makes me sad, honestly, because some people have great potential.   Aaron Johnson  20:57 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Your your podcast listening can be cut down, though, with your new job, your commute, your short commute time. Now,   Gus Gagliardi  21:06 I thought about that you can't really get into a podcast in 10 minutes. I was thinking I gotta switch to music now. Because you got to get like some sort of pump up. But you can't like really settle into an hour long podcast. minutes. That's right. That's I had that thought for sure. This week I was just cuts into like me, like really getting into a state of mind going to work.   Aaron Johnson  21:29 Get up early, you have to get up the same time. Just get your podcast listening. I know. So tell us a little bit about the practical steps you actually take like, what's the whole process from inviting the guests to preparing to actually posting the podcast? And then you do everything? Or do you outsource some of it to other companies or people?   Gus Gagliardi  21:46 No I to everything, I think eventually I will look at kicking some of the podcast editing out. But honestly, like, for the price of what you get for editing, like it can be anywhere from low cost would be for audio only video is a lot more expensive. But the price points for per episode. Like I think I calculated, I forget what the number was I calculated how much money on average I spend. It's like a couple of dollars per podcast episode if you like, if you cut it down to all of the hosting fees, and like everything that I've signed up for whatever email account, and like if you roll all that into one number and divided by 365, it's like a couple of dollars. But that's because I do all of the editing, and all of the media stuff, and all of the shownotes and everything. So functionally, what that looks like, I'll send an email out and ask them to gauge their interests, then I will try to establish the date and or schedule time. After there's a scheduled time I will develop a set of questions. And usually it's easiest for me to think about this questions and categories. So I'll kind of broadly think of some categories for fire code tech, generally, it's people story, like a technical competency issue or topic. And then professional development. So if you think about it in those categories, I generally know that it only takes about depending on the person anywhere from 10 to 15 questions to fill an hour. But that's highly dependent on the person's level of skill and level of passion and level of ease in speaking to fill that to fill that hour. So I've had people where I've gotten through maybe like less than four questions. And then I've had people where I've just like it's pulling teeth, and I got to have like 17 questions to get through an hour. So okay, tighly variable on the person. And so I will record the episode. And then I will mix and master the audio, and compile that and upload it to a hosting website, which distributes it to spark Spotify, Apple, Google Play, like eight different places and distributes it all in one place. So yeah, that's a little bit about the workflow and then it releases every Monday it releases really early in the morning. I don't know why I started that. But it releases like 2am on Mondays, but I figured people could have it whenever they start their commute. So I'm consistent and I think that's important, but that's a bit about the process.   Aaron Johnson  24:36 Awesome. So it also looks like since we're on video, it looks like you're in like your own sound booth. So tell me a little bit about like what what you got going on there they   Gus Gagliardi  24:44 Yeah, I just rigged this up. I just picked this up by I'm in the process of like, getting everything incorporated for video. My brother has a video podcast, so he kind of like charged the path on letting me know like everything thing you need for video. And like, really, if you have a nice camera, which I don't, I'm just using a computer camera, but like, you can set up a certain focus and depth of field. But I'd say the elements are lighting, sound quality. So you set up sound blankets around the room to really dampen the noise and give it that studio s sound. And then, you know, you have lighting. And there's great posts online about how to set up the three different components of lighting or like the, like three point lighting, it's called. So there's like, basically, yeah, just like a backlight, a key light, and like a foot. I don't know the terminology. But so I've tried to incorporate that a little bit for this. But honestly, I just threw up all this stuff this morning. But yeah, I'd say focus on the sound quality, the lighting, and the aesthetic. Like, if I had some knickknacks or something in the background, I think that'd be a lot better. I don't I just threw up a sound blanket to give a nice backdrop and have some fighting. So face isn't washed out.   Aaron Johnson  26:06 That's right. Awesome, man. So what is and you've given a lot of tools. And I really appreciate that. Yeah. To the audience today, what's one actionable step that they can go to do today and they say, I want to start a podcast, what's the one thing they can go and do right now. And to get started in that direction?   Gus Gagliardi  26:22 Do you need to go record a podcast today, if you want to do a podcast, don't wait until you're ready. Don't wait until you get to sign from wherever you want to get the sign. If you want to do a podcast scheduled podcast today, get your buddy, whoever it is Tell him we're doing a podcast, we don't have to release it. But we're going to do it and I'm going to practice my my skills interview in or having a conversation or whatever scheme you want for your podcasts, go do it today. Because if you can find a reason not to do it, you're going to keep finding a reason not to do it. And that is like the other huge hurdle after you've convinced yourself to do one is to convince yourself to post one. And then after you've posted one, make sure you put yourself in a position to post at the same frequency you've set out. So I recorded like four or six podcasts before I released any because I had no clue how hard it was going to be to keep a churning backlog of professionals and videos recorded. I don't know if that was necessary. It would. It's what made me feel comfortable with the time. But yeah, I'd say if you are interested in doing a podcast, grab whatever microphone and or camera you have today and go record one because the first one you're going to do is going to be hard, and then they'll get easier after that. But if you don't, if you don't actually start recording podcasts, you're not a podcast. So just go do it, go do it. Because I guarantee you, it's easier than what you think it's gonna be. And there's a billion articles online, on how to figure it out. So if you really want it, you can do it.   Aaron Johnson  28:11 Awesome. So I know you're in the, we're gonna change gears a little bit and start to kind of wrap things up. You're the you're a fire protection engineer, you're in that field. So what would you say is the current state of the industry for the fire protection engineering field or the aspiring fire protection engineer,   Gus Gagliardi  28:28 I'd say I have not in my career experienced a better time become a fire protection engineer, the industry is absolutely white hot for career opportunity, and a chance to professionally develop and get a good job and to have a competitive salary for a good job. So I think that if you have any interest in fire and life safety, and you want to make your foray into the field, say do it now because the industry is on a bull run the market wide hot with opportunity. And I've never seen it be this good in the last six, six years of being in business. So the industry that even despite the all of the supply chain disruptions and all of these inherent difficulties with COVID. The industry is just chugging away for speeding. I don't know how long that's gonna last. But right now it's incredible to see the amount of construction that's going on right now in the construction that I've seen that's been scheduled for the next couple of years. So that is what I see happening right now. The big topics I see in the industry are batteries, lithium ion batteries being a big one. You know, what else heavy timber construction for, like sustainability and kind of environmental impact. That's a huge thing. I see Right now in the industry a push on the national scale. Yeah, I think a big part of thing that I want to be an advocate for is bringing people into the industry. Because another trend that I see on the macro level is a lack in people coming into the field, I see that, you know, the program that I came from Oklahoma State produces about anywhere from 40 to 50 candidates a year, and that doesn't even scratch the surface of what the industry needs for just FPS like, that doesn't even start to, to really move the needle for what we're going to need for people getting into fire alarm, fire, sprinkler, fire protection, engineering, I mean, there's so many jobs, and people from my program go into, you know, safety, and a lot of other different avenues. So they might go work for a petroleum company, or they might go, you know, work for work safety for industry, you know, some accompany like International Paper or something like that. So, so maybe only quarter to a third of those kids are becoming, you know, in the system side of fire and life safety. So, it's a huge boom time. And it's a super consistent job market. So, you know, I would say, Please, please, please get involved. There's so much promise and opportunity right now, for anybody with competency, and it's not too hard to be competent.   Aaron Johnson  31:36 Awesome. Thank you. So we're wrapping up here. Before we do, is there anything else that you'd like to share something that you'd like to discuss that we haven't mentioned yet? Feel free to do that now? And then just kind of tell us where where can people find you?   Gus Gagliardi  31:48 Yeah, I think that now, as far as topics left, I think we've covered a lot of good stuff. Yeah, just to put a put a big plug in for the podcast here. Fire co tech. You can find it wherever you find podcasts, like we said before, Spotify, YouTube, Apple, Google, play all the above, go find it. There's great topics about whether you like aircraft hangars or fire alarm or fire suppression or you want some tips and tricks on how to pass your Fe or PE. There's great information on these podcasts where I get to view interview professionals like Aaron and people who are absolute leaders in the industry with 30 and 40 years of experience just given out great secrets and not secrets, but just tips and tricks for people to be competitive in the industry. Also, you can find me on LinkedIn am Gus Gagliardi and on Twitter at gags guess what's jiejie ZG us? So? Yeah, I think that I've enjoyed the podcast. Aaron, thank you so much for having me. And yeah, we'd love to do it again. I hope there's another one of these I hope this becomes an annual gig.   Aaron Johnson  33:01 Awesome, man. No thank you for your words. And thank you for sharing and taking your time so we appreciate it. Thanks a lot, man.

Welcome to episode 49 of Fire Code Tech. On this episode we are speaking about everything kitchen fire suppression with Adam Walker. Adam Walker has been with Johnson Controls for 14 years. He currently serves as the global product manager for ANSUL and PYRO-CHEM restaurant fire protection products. Walker is a member of the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and is a committee member for NFPA 17: Standard for Dry Chemical Extinguishing Systems, NFPA 17A: Standard for Wet Chemical Extinguishing Systems, and NFPA 96: Standard for Ventilation Control and Fire Protection of Commercial Cooking Operations.     https://www.ansulred.com/  https://www.specansul.com/  https://www.ansul.com/en/us/pages/default.aspx  https://retailrestaurantfb.com/detecting-hotspots/ 

Welcome to episode 31 of the solocast of Fire Code Tech! On this episode we are talking about professional development. We speak about professional societies, technical resources and how to cultivate a mentor mentee relationship. Understanding how to continue to hone your skills professionally and to keep appraised of the fire and life safety environment is of critical importance. Fire Protection Summit https://fireprotection.kartra.com/affiliates/344035 Joe Meyer: https://www.meyerfire.com/ Chris Campbell: https://www.buildingcode.blog/ Jose Oliveira: https://diroots.com/

On this weeks episode of Fire Code Tech we are speaking with Roddy Macdonald. We speak about his time in the fire service and his various entrepreneurial pursuits. In addition the podcast covers fire safety plans and the code structure in Canada.

On the 30th solocast episode of Fire Code Tech we are talking about flow tests. We get into codes and standards key definitions, and tips/tricks for professionals around flow tests. Tune in to find out when you need to perform hydrant

Fire investigation, social media management, public information officer, IT manager. These are just a few of the roles that Jake Zlomie performs at his new role for the Central Valley Fire District in Belgrade Montana. We also talk about how you can get involved with your local fire department if you are looking to give back or volunteer. Tune in to for our professional development segment where Jake gives his top three pieces of technology to optimize workflow.

Welcome to episode 29 of the solocast of Fire Code Tech! This week we are talking about assembly occupancies. What are some common definitions and examples of assembly occupancies? How many different types of assembly occupancies are there in the international building code? Are there some important fire protection technology thresholds for assembly occupancies? We answer all these question and more in this week's episode of FCT! https://www.nfpa.org/Public-Education/Staying-safe/Safety-in-living-and-entertainment-spaces/Nightclubs-assembly-occupancies/Fire-safety-in-assembly-occupancies

On episode 46 of Fire Code Tech we are interviewing a professional that has a tremendous drive and personal story about her journey in fire and life safety. Tune in to hear about how Jeyra has cultivated personal and professional relationships, great tips for any professional. Also we break down tips and tricks for learning fire protection if English is not your first language.   Another Podcast appearance by Jeyra https://www.gladiatrixpodcast.com/being-resilient-with-jeyra-rivera/

In episode we are talking fire protection system ITM! We get into codes and standards, impairment plans, and key critical definitions for the subject.