Podcasts about gen ys

Hear how planning for the future means loving change I worked with Jennifer Kluge several years ago on a Blue Ocean Strategy workshop. Her organization, the National Association for Business Resources, was focused wholly on businesses in Michigan, offering important services from insurance products to support with accounts receivables. As CEO, Jennifer has catapulted NABR into a national initiative that supports businesses with best practices, training and development, insights, leadership, and a range of programs reflecting the needs of industry today—such as rebuilding talent, focusing on wellness and burnout, and helping businesses rebuild their cultures in a new hybrid workplace, among other things. I love her message: Don't be afraid to fail. Something we all need to hear. Watch and listen to our conversation here What is the right strategy for an uncertain future? This is what I worked on with Jennifer and her leadership teams. I remember at the time that my Michigan clients were struggling with talent flight. Students were leaving the state after graduation, and industries were trying to figure out their own futures. Fast forward to the pandemic and now the post-pandemic years, and Detroit, where Jennifer is located, is on the rebound, as is Michigan. Between the automotive industry, Rocket mortgages and loans, and IT incubators, lots of new businesses have successfully made it through the pandemic and are now rebuilding the economy of the state. But Jennifer learned something very important during the pandemic, namely that the challenges of the past had changed, forcing companies to rethink how they were going to survive into the future. In this podcast, you will hear the journey that she has been on as she has built her association into a major resource for companies across the U.S. You can connect with Jennifer on LinkedIn or her company's website, the National Association for Business Resources. Is your business struggling with change? Give these blogs and podcasts a try:  Blog: Okay, Okay, I'm Ready To Change. How Do I Do It? Blog: Hate Change? Anthropology Can Make You and Your People Love It! Podcast: Valerio Pascotto and Amit Raikar—Yes Change Is Painful But It's Necessary! Podcast: Rita McGrath—Don't Run From Change, Embrace It! Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants   Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, your host and your guide. And remember, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can change. That's not easy because your brain often hates me. I can't tell you how many clients who hire me immediately hate me, because I'm doing something that the brain says, Oh, please stop, stop trying to make me better. I know I need to be but it's hard to do. So I go looking for people who are going to help you do the same thing: see things through a fresh lens. People ask me, What does an anthropologist know? I was asked the other day at a conference, What do you do? I said, I hang out. And they laughed. And I said, No, my job is to help you see things differently, not to necessarily build a new sandbox, but to at least see the edges of what you're doing so you can see what you might be missing. And my first book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, was about all my clients who got stuck or stalled. So Jennifer Kluge is my guest today. And Jennifer is interesting to me to share her thoughts with you. I worked with Jennifer and her team a number of years ago. We did a Blue Ocean Strategy workshop. And they were quite stuck or stalled. But trying to figure out, Where are we going? What else could we do? Jennifer, thanks for coming today because I want to share what you did. It was great fun to see you then and to continue to see you now. Welcome. Jennifer Kluge: Thank you so much indeed for having me. This is fun to talk about our journey and what's happened and what others can learn from. So thank you for having me. Andi Simon: Help our video watchers and our listeners on our podcast know more about Jennifer. You've had a journey. And it's always important to sort of set the stage for why people should listen to you. Because it hasn't just happened, you didn't jump out there. It was in stages, you have seen it, you built it, you've carved it. It's a big piece of playdough that you've made into something big and special. Just let me add one thing. Jennifer is the CEO of the National Association for Business Resources. Now she's going to tell you how that has pulled together a whole lot of stuff, Corp! Magazine, Best and Brightest. But Jennifer, a little bit more about who Jennifer is. Jennifer Kluge: Oh, gosh, that's a loaded question. Let's start with a business perspective. You know, I started my career in human resources. And the whole goal was, I wanted to help people, but I wanted to use business, I wanted to be in business. But I wanted to help people within business. So I've landed in human resources. I was one of the first graduating classes where it was actually called human resources. So I'm dating myself there. And then later on, I added strategic planning and marketing to my background. As far as my education goes, I was in the corporate world and it wasn't talking to me. I wanted to continue that mission of helping people. So the opportunity came to work for NABR, and I jumped at it, and some 25 years later, here I am. And quite honestly, that whole theme of helping people has been throughout my business career, whether it's my teammates, mentoring them, whether it's our clients. During the pandemic, we sat down as a team. I had all my team leaders, and we said, I said, How are we going to navigate this? And we came out with, We're going to help as many people as possible. And that enlightened us to unglue some things. We were able to launch so many programs that helped thousands of people through the pandemic and I'm super proud of that. Andi Simon: You know, your personal expression, your brand, your answer to the question, it's a very powerful one because there's purpose. There may be profit. And we do need profit so that we can pay our folks and they can all make living. But what mattered most to you is, How do I help people do what they have to do? Not what I have to do. So talk a little bit about your evolution as a business because when we met, if I remember correctly, your organization was providing some insurance products, some support for accounts payable and receivables. They were also doing tactical and practical solutions that smaller midsize businesses could use. It was an association of businesses helping each other and it's come a long way and tell me the journey, a little bit about the business, because part of it reflects you, not just them. Jennifer Kluge: Well, you know, we ignite greatness in companies in their people. And so we kind of pivoted from, Here's what we're doing, to Here's our mission, here's our purpose. And by shifting to that, we were able to think differently and offer different solutions to companies. So yeah, there's the pre-pandemic story and the post-pandemic story. You helped us pre-pandemic unglue the brain so to speak, as far as strategic planning. Everybody on my team knew who André Rieu was. And we used it in every meeting, every board meeting. We built the André Rieu story, and this is what we want to do: we want to change who we are in a way that is tenacious and has ingenuity. So for those that are listening and don't know André very well, you used the story of André Rieu and how he changed the whole orchestral experience from kind of boring to exciting and fun and a value and got everyone involved in classical music. So we used that example for years before the pandemic on how we wanted to change. And I think the secret there is that we know that success comes from a series of failures. And I think too, there's an element of, the more you fail, the more confidence you have. And having an important event, like the pandemic, and then you get through it, and you're crushing it through the pandemic, I think that builds confidence, not only in yourself, but in your team. And so it's the combination of knowing that we have to fail in order to succeed, and releasing yourself from the fear. I think for every CEO, there's kind of a thing, Not while I'm at the helm, and, It's not going down with me at the helm. So I think there's this fear out there for CEOs, a subliminal fear, that you might fail. And once you release yourself from that and have confidence, hey, you're not going to fail. No matter what happens, you're going to get through it. I think that releases you to think more Blue Ocean Strategy. So there's the philosophical, and then there is the actual doing the work. And doing the work is trial, we did a lot of pilots. So during the pandemic for the Best and Brightest companies we work for, we launched seven new cities. So we pivoted. I hate that word. Now, I hate the word pivot. Everyone hates it. We refocused. We shifted and we had a majority of the things that we did were in person. Across the country, we had conferences across the United States. So when that element went away, it liberated us to launch more cities for regional competitions. So we had our biggest growth during the pandemic because we were released from fear, I guess you could say, and Blue Ocean does this. It says, Okay, this is something strategic here. But there's opportunity in it. Andi Simon: What is the Best and Brightest? I've had some clients who are recognized as among the best and the brightest. So I'll put this in context for the listener or the viewer. Blue Ocean Strategy is not about competing in the market, it's about creating a new market, thinking about non-users and unmet needs, not simply more of the same cheaper, and then being free to do what Jennifer was talking about: to begin to experiment with new ways to do very important things. Because we don't know what we don't know. And I always say never waste a crisis. I never want another pandemic, but don't waste a crisis because as you listen to her talk about the Best and Brightest, it went from nice to very nice, and from some people benefiting to lots of people benefiting, all because of a crisis. What is the Best and Brightest? Jennifer Kluge: So the Best and Brightest is a series of programs that we score and rethink excellence. So there's the Best and Brightest of wellness and there's the Best and Brightest companies to work for. We put companies through the gauntlet. How do you treat your employees? We have 10 different scoring categories and we have an extensive survey to the employer. But we also validate that by surveying the employees at the end of going through these companies so they can see how they ranked. They see where their engagement levels are and they get a plethora of tools and services to help guide them with their talent. Now, that was our core. Since then we've launched all kinds of tools and resources. We have thousands of best practices that we now share through the Best and Brightest programs. So thousands of best practices, and then we've opened it up to CEOs and thought leadership best practices, diversity and inclusion, team bonding and hybrid work, digital engagement. So we have this whole plethora of what I call deliverables but it would be of value to the business community that came from the pandemic, quite honestly. But, what I like about the pandemic, not that we all had to go through it, but what I liked about it is that it gave you the excuse to go bigger. Andi Simon: And you didn't run the other way because I've heard of people who went smaller, and they shrunk. And they decided to reduce their staffing and they fled. Instead, you turned fear into an opportunity. And you parked it on the side and said, What do I have to be afraid of? What's the worst that could happen? You know, let's go help people because those deliverables are really a resource, as you call it. A business resource for people who need to know, How do I do this? Where are they going to turn? To a university when they're shut down too? And they're going to go to their association. Well, they weren't sure what they were doing. But you filled an unmet need of a huge proportion across the country. And people came to say, I'm not sure who you are, but I really liked what you have to do. Am I right? Jennifer Kluge: Correct. Correct. And we went, like I said, we got our team leaders together. And we said, What role do we want to play here? When times are tough, that's when people lean on their associations. And so we jumped in. We were answering legal questions. There were all these mandates and what have you. I mean, we were working around the clock. We felt we had to help as many people as possible...you know, people's jobs, livelihood, income, food on the table. So we felt a strong mission to help people and we still do. It's carried on to now. We've always felt that as a service organization that we have a significant job to play. Andi Simon: What's interesting for our listeners to think about is, here we are, we're facing a battle. We're not quite sure if we're trained for it. But we know that people have unmet needs, and I have a hunch those calls came through. You are a day ahead of them. It wasn't as if there was a whole lot of time studying the legal ramifications of the mandates that had to be done. Or what do I do to build a collaborative culture when people are in different places doing it in different ways? How do I keep them from getting phished, and having cybersecurity? And all of a sudden, the questions were beyond and all I bet you could do is say, Hang on, I'll be right back. Let me find out. Am I right? You were the go-to. Jennifer Kluge: Right. And I gotta tell you, Andi, no past emergencies prepared you for this. And what I noticed is, more seasoned people that have been through the Great Recession, have been through other hard times within their own careers in their own companies. Those were the ones that were like, Oh, yeah, I know what this muscle is. Let's roll up our sleeves. I don't think people realized how long the run was gonna be. We definitely knew that we had to use those muscles. Andi Simon: Real important point, because people who they didn't think were leaders rose to leadership, and people who they thought were their leaders didn't know what to do or how to perform. And so you know, don't waste them or waste a crisis, even for your own development. So that's really, really interesting. As you were going through it, was there a case or two that really stood out as something that was quite exemplary, either in a performance by a person or an area that you found was in tremendous demand, and people didn't know where to go and we rose to that. Something that you can illustrate? Jennifer Kluge: Well, I think what's coming to my mind is the themes that are still going on there. There's a lot of themes around talent right now. Wellness and well-being in the workplace, mental health and workplace burnout, hybrid work. There is a lot that we continue to see in that space that has not gone down at all. It's really interesting because some of these business trends are the inability to look to the future and predict things. That's a frustration at the C-suite level. So different themes are coming out. But they were the themes that were there three years ago; they're still here. What's the future look like? We have a lot of space and talent so we see a lot of the woes related to keeping and retaining talent. And there's been a lot of mergers and acquisition activity, a lot of culture merges and a lot of change. So, I mean, this is a great topic. If somebody can manage change and thrive and change, they thrive in business. If you are going to excel in business, you have to love change, you have to drive change, and you have to bring others with you to drive change, and you have to make it fun and exciting for them as well. So you can't be in business and think that things are fine, status quo. Well, it's weird. Andi Simon: Well, but just think about the things you just highlighted, because I think they are classic problems. How do you attract and retain people, but it's on steroids, or to use that expression: the Great Resignation. Your people may have resigned and have second thoughts, but it was a catalytic moment for employers to realize that they don't really own anybody. They're not really committed. And then I have had endless conversations about why did they leave? I said, Why don't you ask them? And what you find is that what they needed wasn't what you were focused on. You were focused on what you needed. And we flipped it all. Stop thinking about what I need, think about what we need and what that person is looking for. Because if you don't understand that, it's no different than a customer. You know, they aren't that different as people and they are looking for something to give them their own purpose and their own reason for staying with you. And they're willing to go jump off with everyone else and see what else is around. They may come back but the damage is done. They too can say it didn't work out. So what? But what's interesting is that you made a big point: the times, they are changing, I think Bob Dylan sang that in the 60s. I love the lyrics to that song because they're today. And I think they are always. When you talk about this, though, the National Association for Business Resources is also migrating in some ways. You're taking your own business, and changing as it comes to respond. And I love your pilots. I always love pilots because we don't really know, so let's try it and maybe we'll get part of it. Where do you see your own future? Because that's a big topic for your CEOs. Can you share with CEOs what you see, because you're a little bit ahead of them. Jennifer Kluge: In what way Andi? As far as where the business world is going? Or where are organizations going? Andi Simon: Well, you can do the first after the second. I want to know where the Association is going because you're responding to what people come to you with. You are anticipating, but you also are growing yourselves where many of you are in your future. Jennifer Kluge: So we're going through that right now. We are now finally able to launch our own strategic plan versus what the market tells us we need to do. So it's refreshing to get back to strategic planning and say, Here's where we want to go, here's where we're willing to drive. So we want to expand some of our work on best practices. We have all these wonderful resource guides. I do interviews like this with CEOs to find out what their secret sauce is, as it relates to talent. You're gonna see a lot more quick and dirty tools and resources. That's where we're going. We're gonna probably be launching some new programs. We have some wonderful endeavors that we do at our headquarters in Michigan that you'll probably see outside of Michigan within the next couple years. We don't let anything go too long without a big change or a big launch. And there's a lot of past launches that didn't work. I remember around 15 years ago, we did this online digital education and training program. A leadership program for small businesses. And I thought it was gonna be so cool. And we launched it, did a lot of marketing, and it didn't take. But gosh, if we had launched that this year, you know...we do have some wonderful training programs. We have leadership development, training programs, and what have you. But it's so funny, if you live long enough, right? You're in this long enough. That old tie from the 70s becomes a hit. Andi Simon: To your point, so I have three leadership academies operating, one for the fourth year, one for its fifth year. And when they went pandemic style, we went remote in our pack, and now we're sort of hybrid. But you know, only 18% of the companies in the US have training programs. And they expect their folks to be learning how to do things. In healthcare, I was always appalled that we would move a nurse up from nurse to nurse manager and tell her to wing it. I mean, it was like, Oh, how do I matter? Well, that's different from being a nurse and that's not. And then the ward manager became the leader. And what's the difference between one and the other? So there are some real profound transformations in organizations today, and how we get things done. And I also think, generational transitions. You know, Boomers are not Gen Xs, not Gen Ys. I've had folks where the Gen Xers are translating the Gen Ys to the Boomers so they could get along. And then you have the Zs and the As coming behind them. And the world is very complicated. And it's an interesting time. At one point, I had clients in Michigan and they all were struggling with the migration of people after college from Michigan. Has that changed, are people staying. Jennifer Kluge: In fact, we're hosting our National Summit in Detroit so people can see how cool and hip Detroit is now. I think the phrase Comeback City is very accurate. In fact, we moved our offices to downtown Detroit to be a part of the change in the resurgence. There's so many wonderful things happening in Michigan now. Again, talk about Blue Ocean, there's an opportunity right there. The cost of living is lower here. Land is cheaper here. A lot of people took advantage of the low interest rates, and they grew their businesses. So yeah, I would highly recommend that if you have not been to Michigan or Detroit or Grand Rapids in a while, you should come check it out. There's some pretty cool cities here. And we're doing some really incredible things. But to answer that other question that you had about what are the trends we're seeing right now, it's very interesting to see this transition right here in this moment. There are some companies that are thriving and can't hire enough talent. There's other industries that they're letting people go. We're at the beginning of this change of economy, where you have this group thriving and this group not thriving. So I think there's going to be another shift soon for employers to really focus on. The other interesting thing is hybrid work, and how that affects culture and creates subcultures. And we are seeing a lot of issues around, Do we have digital employees? Do we force them to come back to the office? Do we not force them to come back? Do we need them to come back because the economy is really hurting our operations and it's time? Those kinds of questions. I think that a lot of people are swimming in that right now. Andi Simon: Well, you know, it's interesting, I had done a podcast with a gentleman who had a book about how to manage a totally remote workforce, Running Remote. There are others that are global, that have been for a long time completely remote. And then I've been called to come in and help with a culture of organizations who have a flywheel of hires and fires and hires, and they leave because they think it is a bad culture. And being an anthropologist who studies culture and helps companies change their culture and knowing that people don't know what their culture is, they're not even quite sure what they want to create out of it, which makes it intentional. And that creates a whole new platform for thinking about what it is you're really trying to do. What is it you missed? I have a wonderful client and they have a brand new office that was completed in March of the beginning of the pandemic, and nobody wants to come in. And their folks, they have 70 employees, they say to us, Why do I have to drive an hour in and an hour back to sit there to do the same work I can do here? And the CEO wants to be with people. I mean, he's a social fellow, and really just wants the socializing part of it. It's interesting what the pressure is, and how efficient you can be or how social and effective you are. And it really reflects who you are as much as anything. And I don't want my listeners to underestimate the power of me and who I'm looking for, as opposed to we and what we need to be effective here. I had a client ask, Why do you think people are leaving? Well, because it's not the culture that it was before. I mean, nobody left before. Well, they did too, but they seem to be moving faster now. And I said, So, let's take a look at what's going on. But these are interesting times, aren't they? Jennifer Kluge: Very, very different. So I think we're at the beginning of a new era of how business is done and how talent works. It's going to be very, very interesting to see what best practices come out of this. And quite honestly, it is different. You know, there's truth to both sides, right? To the companies that want to bring people back in person, it's much easier to communicate and engage in a group, in person. Training is a huge issue, bringing people in with the right skill sets is much harder now. Training people for their job is much harder. Imagine a supervisor that's digital and an employee that's in person. So there are a lot of issues now. And that's what we're hearing about. So what we're doing as an organization is, we're saying, Okay, this is what this company is doing, here's the best practice on that side, here's the best practice on this side, but you have to fit it for your culture. You can't just take a best practice from another company and plop it in. It has to be shaped and molded for your company's personality. Andi Simon: And it's important to figure out what your customer's personality is. Jennifer Kluge: Well, I'm blessed because the Best and Brightest companies to work for and the companies that we work with, they're above average, they think differently. They're more elite thinkers. It's a community of really smart, cutting-edge companies. So I have the pleasure of seeing the best. But it's our job to share what they're doing with others, right? So that's an expensive expectation. Going through the programs, we're gonna share your secret sauce, but it's also a gift. Andi Simon: And there's nothing better than the gift of kindness, of sharing, and then celebrating. And I do think that says getting exactly the gift you have. So I'm absolutely having a blast listening to you. I love Michigan, it's been a good world for me to have clients in and that's how we met. A couple of things you'd like our listeners not to forget? They always remember the ending even better than the beginning. One or two things that they should keep in mind that you've learned in building your business? Or as you work with your Best and Brightest who are building theirs. Jennifer Kluge: A success comes from a series of failures. Don't be scared to fail. And it's about you. It has nothing to do with you. Take the emotion out of it, the emotion out of decision-making, the emotion out of your personal impact and the best road for decision-making. Andi Simon: You know, years ago I taught. I was a visiting professor at Washington University teaching entrepreneurship, and some of the entrepreneurs I brought in to talk for their case studies said, "I opened three businesses. That one worked, that one didn't. I never failed" And that's a little like what you're saying. Let's distance the business from ourselves and make sure that we understand that sometimes things happen for good or for not, that's part of it, but it isn't necessarily all of us that's doing it. I had two things I didn't hear from you. I want you to be free from failure. The fear of failure is what impedes you from doing the best things, the right things, or knowing what you could do. And the other thing is that this is a time for rethinking talent. And I think all of the things you talked about, whether it's well-being, and that's a really big area, or it's burnout, or it's hybrid or it's culture, people are herd animals. We have survived because of our work together. We've evolved because we could really do things better together. So a great book is called The Secret of our Success. And our success has been because we did it together, not alone. You let that happen. What a gift. Thank you, Jennifer, thank you for joining me today. Jennifer Kluge: Thank you, Andi. So it's always a pleasure to chat with you and get your wisdom. Andi Simon: Well, I'm glad it's been so impactful for you, but it's fun for me to share it as well, for my listeners, and my viewers. Thank you for coming. Remember my books, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights are both available. They've done extremely well. They won us awards, and they share the stories of people like Jennifer's customers, their clients. And they are like Jennifer who have smashed the myths tof what women can do. My new book comes out in September. It's called Women Mean Business. It's the wisdom of 101 trailblazing women and it is truly an extraordinary experience to listen to 101 women tell you their experiences, a little like Jennifer has done today. What are the wisdoms that we want you to share so we can elevate you and inspire you and help you get to where you need to go. And I think that it is a time of transformation for business, but also for women in business. So for all of you who come, thank you so much. Have a wonderful day. Stay safe, stay healthy. Jennifer, thank you again. It's been such fun. Goodbye now. Bye bye.

Learn how to really and truly end gender bias at work Despite extensive and costly diversity initiatives, little progress has been made in recent years in ending workplace gender inequality. I reviewed Andie Kramer's new book, Beyond Bias: The Path To End Gender Inequality At Work, and was so excited to read about a process for change that might actually work. Remember, we are corporate anthropologists specializing in helping organizations change. And we know how hard it is for people and groups of people to shift their ways of doing things to improve their workplaces. Beyond Bias, as Andie will tell you in our podcast, presents a compelling explanation of the reasons for the failure of change initiatives to bring a more diverse and equitable workplace into reality, and what we can do to change that. Watch and listen to our conversation here Current diversity initiatives focus primarily on “teaching” people to be less biased and more inclusive, which doesn't work. Teaching is fine. But, as Andie tells us, this is the wrong focus. As Beyond Bias makes clear, workplace gender inequality is a systemic problem caused largely by the (unintended) discriminatory operation of personnel systems, policies and practices. And these ingrained biases have been caused by all the structures that have evolved over many years as organizations have developed. As a solution, Andie offers the four-prong PATH program for directly attacking this structural discrimination — and with it, individuals' discriminatory conduct. In brief, PATH is designed to help you: Prioritize Elimination of Exclusionary Behavior Adopt Bias-free Methods of Decision-Making Treat Inequality in the Home as a Workplace Problem Halt Unequal Performance Evaluations and Leadership Development Opportunities This progam is a comprehensive set of actions that organizations can take to ensure that women no longer encounter gendered obstacles to their career advancement and instead, find their workplaces to be engaging, supportive places where they — and everyone — can thrive. And wouldn't that be fantastic, finally. You can read more about Andie Kramer, Founding Member of ASKramer Law, in my book, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. You can also contact her on LinkedIn, Twitter and her two websites: ASKramer Law and Andie and Al: Breaking Through Bias. Want more strategies for fighting bias at work? Start with these:  Blog: Businesses Must Sustain Diversity And Inclusion For Women Podcast: Andrea Kramer and Alton Harris—Tackling Gender Bias In The Workplace Podcast: Maureen Berkner Boyt—Diversity and Inclusion: Let's Go Beyond Hoping and Make Inclusion Really Happen Podcast: Rohini Anand—Can Businesses Create Cultures Based On True Diversity, Equity and Inclusion? Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants   Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, and as you know, I'm your guide and your host and my job is to get you off the brink. I want to help you see things through a fresh lens so you can change. And you know that your brain hates me. The minute I say we're going to change, you immediately shut down right away and say, Oh, no, you cannot change me. But I want you to begin to see things that you can do to begin to adapt your organization, yourself, and the folks around you so they can in fact live better lives.  And today, it's time for us to talk about this challenge. We are building diverse, equitable, inclusive organizations, where people with different backgrounds of any kind can feel like they belong. Now, for setup, my guest today is Andie Kramer. And she was kind enough to tell her story in my first book about women, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. I'll share with you that I have a new book coming out in September called Women Mean Business. But I'm not going to tell you much more about it. Andie is a very talented lawyer and author who has a new book coming out this May 2023. And the book is called Beyond Bias: The Path To End Gender Inequality At Work. She's written several books about it. And let me give you a bit of her biography, then I'm gonna turn it over to her to tell you about her journey because it's a very interesting one, from being told not to be a lady lawyer to being a very successful one. So who is Andie Kramer? She's regarded as one of the foremost authorities on the regulatory texts, commercial and governance matters that arise for individuals and businesses in trading environments. She's represented multinational corporations, financial services firms, exchanges, trading platforms, hedge funds, all kinds of companies that typically deal with securities, commodities, derivatives, all types of things, ESG matters and non-traditional assets, emerging asset classes of all types. Really, really smart, wonderful lady. She's respected for her multi-disciplinary knowledge concerning legal issues arising in markets, and all types of products at trade. nd then we're going to skip around her bio a bit. She has spent 30 years at McDermott Will and Emery where she established and led the financial products trading and derivatives group. In my book, we talk more about how getting into McDermott Will and Emery was an interesting experience and what she's done there, since it's been an interesting one. One of my favorite stories is how the men all climbed the Empire State Building and saved the damsel in distress and the women all worked well together, and they kept their jobs. So she learned early about being a very successful, talented woman in a man's organization and industry. She's been co-author of many books, and she was also named by The National Law Journal as one of the 50 Most Influential Women Lawyers in America, for a demonstrated power to change the legal landscape, shape public affairs, watch industries and do big things. I love that. The National Law Review recognized her as a go-to thought leader, and JD super readers voted for her as the top author in cryptocurrency and taxation, but we're not going to talk about cryptocurrency today. But that's an interesting topic by itself. She's known for her long-standing work addressing and dismantling workplace gender discrimination. And she served as a member of the diversity and inclusion advisory board for the Illinois Supreme Court Commission on Professionalism and was co-author of What You Need to Know about Negotiating Compensation, a 2013 Guide, published by the American Bar Association with her lovely husband, Al Harris. She's written two award winning books, Breaking Through Bias: Communication Techniques for Women to Succeed at Work, and the book that I have behind me, It's Not You, It's the Workplace, Women's Conflict at Work and the Bias That Built It. With that in mind, that is sort of the setup for today's conversation. And I will tell you, before the podcast begins, I just love Andie Kramer, and you will as well, in part because she's tackled the legal profession and our society with both hands up and ready to go. And now she keeps wanting to help it change. So with that, Andie, before I talk about your new book, let's talk about your own journey. How did you get going in this? Why is bias and bias management such a critical part about who Andie Kramer is, and how are we helping women and organizations change, which is what I love. Andie? Andie Kramer: Thanks. Okay. Well, well, thank you very much Andi. Yeah, if we get confused, all we have to do is say, Andi(ie) and we've got it covered. My journey started when I was 12 years old and I decided that I wanted to be a lawyer. And my parents only knew one man who was a lawyer and asked him if he would do some career advice for me. And when I met with him, he spent the entire lunchtime talking about why I did not want to be a lawyer, because no one liked lady lawyers, no one would ever love me, I would never have a family, I would always be alone, and life would be terrible. Obviously, I paid no attention to him. And I went forward and became a lawyer and have been for many years. But he really touched on something that is important in the context of what we have to do about the workplace for women and what we can do to do better. And that is that he touched on what my husband and I refer to as the Goldilocks Dilemma, which is that women who are nice and kind and sweet are playing to stereotypes and are expected to be nice and kind and sweet. But if we're stronger, tougher, get this done, or I need this by this time period, we're too tough, and no one wants to work with us. And so this man talking to a 12-year-old was actually touching on some of the issues that we still have today in today's workplace, which is that women are expected to be punished if we're not nice and kind and sweet. But if we're to get this done, and I need this, and I need it now, then not just the men, but the women, too, don't want to be working with us. And so that leads me to Andi's original question: why am I doing this? And how did I get in this space? And the answer to that was that once I knew I wanted to be a lawyer, I put my head down, and I was fortunate enough to be able to make that happen. We could talk about how Title Nine actually is what probably allowed me to get into law school because before Title Nine, women were excluded from consideration. And so that's a topic for another day. But the reality is that when I joined this huge big law firm after having started my practice with a group of people that could not have cared if you were purple, polka dotted, if you did a good job, everybody wanted you on their projects, I'm now in an environment where the fact that I was a woman, what am I doing in a corner office, the fact that I have a two-year-old daughter at home, obviously, I don't care about my career. So the stereotypes are clashing. And I started to see what stereotypes and biases do to women in the workplace, especially when the workplace is large and people don't know you. And so they rely on the stereotypes and the biases that they've grown up with and are comfortable with. And so I started. When I served on our management committee, and then on our compensation committee, this is what Andi was alluding to. The very first thing I learned was that the men will talk about how, in their self-evaluations, how they would have climbed to the top of the Empire State Building, circled around and rescued all the damsels in distress, and they're cool. And they all are owed all the money and all the promotions. The woman who came up with the idea that saved the client, all the money, would write her self-evaluation talking about how she was on the ABC team. And she worked with so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so. And so what I learned then was that there are special rules about how women and men are expected to communicate with each other, how we're punished if we don't, and what we need to do to actually move the needle for diversity, equity and inclusion, and that is to go after the stereotypes and the biases and basically root them out. Andi Simon: Now, you and I have talked so much about these things. Your first book was about how women could communicate better using a good setup and segue from what you just said, because those women who were providing you with self-evaluations were providing you with a story. And the main story, the women's story, were very different stories about how they saw themselves, saw each other and performed. It's like a stage, they had different roles, and they played them differently. Now, if you want to leave it like that, you can. But I don't think that that's the most constructive way for us to build a better organization tapping into the talent that women bring. So now we're looking for a new model, a new way, a new story for us to develop. Your first book was about how to help women shift the way they saw themselves and communicate, am I correct? Andie Kramer: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. If you're dealt a gender bias workplace, how can you play cards in that, with that deck? What we did is, we realized, what we did is, we found that before we could talk about what women need to do, and can do, when interacting with other people, we devoted the first part of the book to what women can have conversations that we can have with ourselves. And those conversations are about confidence and positive mindset and resilience and having what's referred to as a coping sense of humor, so that all of these things that we can marshal to have a conversation with ourselves about what we can do, as to how we're going to go out into the world and interact with other people. So that's sort of the first part of the book. And then the second part of the book was, Okay, now we're interacting with other people, what do we do from the standpoint of verbal and nonverbal communications, because very often women will sit at a table, in the old days, when we used to have lots of meetings, sit at the table. And when people would be coming in late, the women would be squishing up ourselves and the guy who had two chairs, because he had put his suit coat on the second chair, he's not paying any attention to who's getting squished at the table. He's not offering to move his chair or his suit coat off of the second chair. And so what happens is, women-spaces-power, and women, we would give it up very easily. Men tend to gesture away from themselves that makes them look bigger, more powerful. Women tend to gesture towards ourselves. And so all of these sorts of nonverbal signs that are saying who's powerful and who's not. And then in the communication itself, what happens is, because of the stereotypes and biases, because women don't want to be perceived as too hard, we don't want to be perceived as getting punished for being too in your face. Basically, we couch things to try to, Well, maybe this is a bad idea. But well, it's not a bad idea. She doesn't think it's a bad idea. But she doesn't want to say I have this great idea. So maybe it's a bad idea, or I'm sorry 9 million times. And so what we'll do is, women will find ways to try to send a signal that we're not trying to be in your face. And what happens is, then the message that we're sending very often is, We're not as competent, we're not as confident, we're not as talented as somebody who's prepared to tell you to your face that they are competent, confident as hell. Andi Simon: And part of the challenge for women is that as you have been as you grew up, you learned and you mimicked others who played roles. And I do use theater often as a metaphor. And so you look, whether it's on the screen, or it's on your TV, or it's at home, and those are the models that you are being mentored by, even if it's not understood or intentional. So your styles of behaving were set a long time before you knew that you were behaving that way. And an alternative style hasn't emerged for you because you're not going to minimally mimic the guys and be looked at as a bitch or as somebody who's very tough, you really want to find something in between that plays up on the intellectual and smart side while still having an intentional approach to it that others will hear you. Part of it is how you present. The other part is how they hear you. And that becomes part of the challenge. Your second book, It's Not You, It's the Workplace was a really interesting setup for the new book. Quickly tell us a little bit about how we went from how you can change your conversation and style to the workplace understanding of it, so you can begin to think about it. And then we'll talk about your new book and the PATH program, which I think is just a brilliant way of applying it. Andie Kramer: Well, what happened was when we were talking about and writing about the issues of what women can do to overcome gender bias workplaces, we were hit with a lot of resistance. One was, Why do women have to change? And the answer to that is: We're not saying women have to change, we're just telling you that you need to know what the cards are that you were dealt and figure out how to play them to your advantage. But the other part of it was, women would say, Okay, I get it, I understand how to deal with guys. Now you're giving me some good points, I got it, but I really hate working with women. And that was a shock for me because I've never had any trouble working with women, and couldn't for the life of me figure this out. And we started to do some serious research into what's going on in the workplace that makes it that women are prepared to say, I get along fine with the guys, but I hate working with women. And what we found was that most of it has nothing to do with the women other than the fact that in a gender biased workplace, what happens is, there's one spot at the top, so that if I'm nice to you, you might take that spot away from me. There might be expectations as to who's going to make it in a small group. We also come to the workplace with all sorts of misconceptions: who we are, and what are we coming to? What are we bringing to the table? And so we come with all these suitcases filled with all these stereotypes and biases that we have about ourselves, and other people have about us, and so It's Not You, It's the Workplace starts with, Let's talk about a gender bias workplace, and how that holds women back and how it prevents women from having the opportunities to grow the way that men can comfortably in the workplace. And then what can we do better to understand each other? So It's Not You, It's the Workplace, what we did is, we started with, Okay, well, let's look at younger women and older women. Let's look at LGBTQ and other women, let's look at black women versus everybody else. Let's look at Asian women versus everybody else. And so we worked our way through many of the biggest stereotypes and biases that are affecting women's interacting with each other. And that was really what It's Not You, It's the Workplace was about trying to say. The problem is not that women don't get along with women, the problem is that the workplace is making it difficult for women to interact with other women. Andi Simon: It's a very interesting setup because you don't think of it that way; you think about women having trouble working in men's industries. But in fact, as you diversify and bring in people of different backgrounds, you begin to create a different dynamic that's going on here. When you started to write this book, the new one, I really want to talk a little bit about Beyond Bias because if the listener can hear where we're going, and the kind of problems I'm going to tell you about how you can probably address, maybe there's a bigger issue here in terms of the dynamics. Okay, that's the workplace, now what do we do? The new book coming out is called Beyond Bias. And since you may watch this podcast, even afterwards, the new book is out. It's coming in May 2023. But it's a book that you should, if you hear this before then, preorder it. But what Andie and I are both fascinated by is that diversity, equity, inclusion, little progress, or that some people have good jobs, and they're always the diverse person who has that job mess if they have some magic to figure out a solution. And I know so many of them who are really VPs of HR with, you know, global diversity, and they are all a little bit frustrated. or maybe not ready to accept the fact that little progress has been made. So Beyond Bias presents a compelling explanation of the reasons for this failure. And I think the most interesting part is that Andie and her husband have come up with a process for addressing it. Now, you have to remember, I'm an anthropologist, a corporate anthropologist, who helps organizations change. So when I was asked to review this, I went, Oh my gosh, this is right up the way in which we have to change a culture. It's going from hunting and gathering to a fishing village. And it doesn't know the first thing about how to fish. So as Beyond Bias makes clear, workplace gender inequality is a systemic problem caused largely by discriminatory operation of personnel systems, policies and practices. It's a PATH program here. I'll read you what the half steps are, and then I'll have Andie tell you about them. The PATH program attacks structural discrimination, and with it, the individual discriminatory code. The P is to prioritize the elimination of exclusionary behavior. The A is for adopt a bias-free method of decision-making. Now, that's important. Because unless you do that, then women still feel like they can't really talk about ideas or decide and feel comfortable that they aren't getting set up to fail. T is for treat inequality in the home as a workplace problem. Now, that's a whole separate topic, we never quite get to but it's important because what happens outside of the office impacts the inside. And I actually had a CEO of a company say, I think I have to go to a black church to better understand the people I'm hiring, which wasn't a bad idea. And the last, the H is halt unequal performance evaluations and leadership development opportunities. So in this wonderful book that's coming out, I can't wait to read it. I'd like Andie to talk about how they came up with this process because if it works as well as I think it will, you're changing mindset, attitudes and behaviors. And ideas are fine, but execution wins. Andie Kramer: Well, what we found was that most of the bias, the anti-bias training of the DEI training, is: these are the stereotypes, these are the biases, they're unconscious, don't be biased. Well, if it's an unconscious reaction that we have, you could tell me all day long not to be biased, and it's not going to matter. And that's ultimately what we've seen, which is not that the money has been wasted, but that all of the focus has been on trying to fix the individual. And individuals are fairly hard to fix. So what we need to do is we need to step back and say, What is it about the systems that we have in place that prevent women from succeeding? Prevent the free diversity, equity and inclusion that we're hoping and praying for and dreaming for? What can we do to change the system? So that behavior changes actually happen because the system is different. And that's what the PATH program does. So we take for example, getting rid of exclusionary behavior. Well, it's wonderful that so many organizations now require certain things. They strive for diversity. They strive for people of different backgrounds, not because it's the morally right thing to do, which it is, but because the studies all show that companies make more money and are more profitable when they actually have diverse decisions being made. And so you bring in all these diverse people, but you don't welcome them in a way that allows them to succeed. So what happens is, you bring on these people and you just throw them in the deep end and see whether they're going to swim or not. That's not an inclusive environment. So what we need to do is, we need to work towards making it so that inclusion is part of the DNA, the hardwired fabric of an organization. That's sort of the first step, but then what we did is, as we were digging deep and burning deeper into this and it was resonating more and more with us, primarily because of our decades of experience in management positions, it became clear that we can move the needle, we can do better with respect to diversity, inclusion and equity. We can do better if we change the systems, and I'll give you a simple example. I was very involved in the diversity programs at my law firm, the huge law firm that I was at. I've now this year started my own law firm. So I'm now excited with those changes. But when I was at the mega, super large law firm, what happens? Well, the stereotypes and the biases of the people who are reviewing the lawyers would come out: he's a go-getter, she needs her hand held, he's so busy that he doesn't have time for it, she just doesn't get her work done. So that the exact same behavior would be characterized differently, depending on the lens of the reviewer. And so what we did was, we got rid of all of those open-ended questions about, Is this person good for the job, and we instead put in core competencies which would require an evaluation of how to actually do the role that you're assigned. By getting rid of those open-ended questions that would allow the reviewers to say whatever they wanted, if they had to actually evaluate the people for something that was viewed as a competency, the world changed, the way that these evaluations were being done was changed. And so what we found is that even little tiny things can make dramatic differences in the way that we approach diversity, equity and inclusion. Andi Simon: Now, as you were doing that, your PATH program has four steps to it. And we know that the behavior is the important part. But you also have to visualize somehow what that behavior is actually supposed to mean. I have a friend who has $150 million company, and she's tried to make it completely equitable, so that you have men and women, people of different backgrounds. But she had to teach them how to talk to each other, and actually had to show them how to have a meeting where the women and the men could each have enough time. They could also listen to each other's ideas without judging them. And until they could see what she was talking about, it was an anathema to them. We're doing it when you're not taking a look at the video. Of course, when you see the video, I didn't really mean to do that until all of a sudden, you realize that I haven't changed anything. And that's what I need to begin to change and then reinforce because if I don't get a pat on the back for doing it, a hug, a smile, something that says well done, your brain isn't going to remember that's what you're supposed to do. So we have to be humbled by our brains. But on the other hand, you have to see it in order to understand what it is I'm supposed to do. So the four steps were intentionally designed to help you through that process, I'm expecting. Andie Kramer: Yes, exactly. And, interestingly, in the way that we've set these steps up is that you can succeed with small wins. So that it's not: that's your pat on the back, attagirl, attaboy, let's go for it kind of a thing, which is that we need to be reinforced. And so the world wasn't going to change overnight, but just taking away the ability for some senior guy to write about how he knows the young man is going to make something of his career and she's a loser. That's not going to change the world. But you got to start somewhere. And one of the other ways about eliminating discriminatory kinds of evaluations is very interesting because if you just prevent people from having in their face: this is a diverse person, and this is a diverse person, miraculously they don't see that. And so one of the examples is that in the US, many of the symphony orchestras in the 70s were almost all white men. And as soon as they started doing the auditions behind the curtain, miraculously, women and people of color were being added to the symphony. And what we can do is, in the context of just considering a resume, if we get rid of the names, the characteristics that are gender specific or ethnic, or flag racial, one thing or another, it turns out that the women get more chances to actually talk about what they would do if they have the position. And so there's little tiny steps along the way. And each one, you could get a gold star if you wanted. You could view these as progressing and acknowledging that not everybody is going to dive in with both feet to do the full PATH program. We've set it up so that each one could be a module, some of them could be done, some pieces can be done quickly, other pieces can be done over time. But when you're encouraging people, and they're seeing some success, and feeling good about it, miraculously, they're eager, more eager to go to the next step. Andi Simon: Now, I will say, this is not easy. We must be humbled about the fact that humans are cultural creatures and we give meaning to things. There's great research that I did a podcast about that came out of Stanford, where if you gave people designs or buildings or products and you said a woman built it, they didn't think much of it. But, if you said a man built it, they thought it was terrific. There's so much that in our society has to be changed. But it's also a small one at a time, so that may be a battleship, and you're already on your way forward. But there's a destination and we can see that light out there because slowly it's happening. Remember, 40% of the attorneys today are women. And that means that you got almost half. Over half of the doctors are women. Over half the dentists are women. 65% of the accounts are women. And there's a sea surge coming. And there's more women who are getting onto boards and women who are in the C-suite slowly but surely. And when they do, others see that it's possible. You know McKinsey's Women of the Workplace 2022 said, it's a great breakup. Women are leaving, and they're saying, Bye, don't need you. And they're coming and they're doing wonderful things a little like Andie did when she set up her own law firm this year. It was time to be on my own. But this is a time of change. And I think the most important thing is that you begin to keep moving forward, not go back, and not simply say, That's just the way it is, because it doesn't have to be. And I do think that the guys who support us, both your husband and mine, have been great supporters, we've been supported. And I do think that begins to build a better alignment because I'm watching my daughters and their husbands have much better alignment. Are you seeing changes in the Gen Zs? I don't think the Gen As are moving up yet. Maybe the Gen Ys, are they? I know they're more intermarried? I know there's more acceptance of diversity. Are you seeing anything there that gives us hope? Andie Kramer: What a good question. I'd like to believe so. The most recent studies, though, show that the young men are just as biased as their fathers. And so I don't think that age is going to solve the problem. I think we really have work to do, and I think you made that point at the beginning about how it's not easy but things need to be done. And I think that there may be less resistance to it by younger people because they're growing up in an environment where they're expected to be, assumed to be punished if they're not diverse and willing to be more open, but in the quiet of their own space. That's really where we have to see the changes in talking about business. What we did in Beyond Bias is, we really looked at what we put together is, three sort of core stereotypes and the biases that grow from the stereotypes, and one is affinity bias. Andi, obviously you could teach a class on it, about how we believe that we're like people who are like us out of group bias, which is that we don't like people who are not like us. Gender bias, which we've been talking about, is obviously a key part of our books. But there's also other biases that we talk about in Beyond Bias. One of them is called status quo bias. And we're prepared to defend environments, situations and workplaces that are not good just because they're there. And so the interesting studies will show that just proving to somebody that they could be better by making a change is not enough to overcome the status quo bias. You have to prove to them that it's two and a half times greater benefit to them. And so we have a resistance. We have people who are at the top saying, It's not broke, I don't need to fix it. We have people who are saying, Maybe it's broke, but I benefit from it so I'm going to be quiet. And then we have people who say, It hurts me, but change is scary. Andi Simon: Yes. And there's also a lack of trust that the new is better than what is. We know what is. I know how to deal with it. My day is pretty well structured, I can get through it. If there are microaggressions, oh, I figured out how to deal with those little dudes. I have a friend who's president of an insurance company. And she tells a story about being the coat girl. She said, It didn't matter what meeting, the guys gave me their coats to hang up. I went to Lloyds of London to bring them a client. And they gave me the coats to hang up until I went in front of them and said, Let me tell you about the client I brought. Then there's the stories that Sheryl Sandberg tells about women who sit on the sides and don't come up to the table. To your point about making space. I wonder whether the hybrid workplace has created opportunities for transformation in a different fashion because of the virtual meetings. The research says that women still can't say anything. Andie Kramer: Okay, they still can't say anything. Well, I'm personally ambivalent, but I believe that the studies are going to show that women need to be where the action is. And in many workplaces, they can't just be at home or they will be left behind because of out of sight, out of mind. So we have to worry about that, even though it might be more comfortable, convenient or whatever, to be working at home. So we have to keep that in mind. The other thing, though, is that her being a coat girl, well, you know, I can't tell you how many cups of coffee I've poured at meetings. How many times I've been asked to do one thing or another. But in our book, Beyond Bias, about breaking through bias, one of the things we recommend is, if you're the one who will always get told to go pick up the phone and call for this or call for that, don't sit by the phone. Don't be the one who makes it easy for them to just make that assumption about you. Andi Simon: Well, and that comes from setting the stage early on, about what's acceptable or not. Those are important conversations and you have to do them in a way which doesn't build animosity, like collaboration. And those are important words, like I preach in my leadership academies. The words collaboration, coordination, creative problem solving, are all important. You know, Andie, we could talk a lot but I think it's time to wrap up. When does the book come out or they can buy it now. It's available as a preorder on Amazon? Andie Kramer: Yeah, I think all the online bookstores have it. Andi Simon: Good, we'll make sure it's on both the blog and the video. It's called Beyond Bias: The Path To End Gender Inequality At Work and it's going to be a fabulous book for us to read. You can read all three books and it won't hurt you at all. But now the thing is, once you've read the book, how do you do something, and we're both big fans of small wins. What I love is we can visualize where we want to go, a diverse workforce that feels like they're being treated equitably. And there's inclusion. So when we go out for beers at night, we ask the women to join us, even though sometimes it's hard to do. Or conversely, we figure out ways for them to do things that we join them there. But it's interesting to be intentional about it, and to find small wins, and every time you do celebrate the win because your mind remembers what it celebrates. So if you really want to make the changes stick, you have to do both a vision of where you're going and visualization of action towards there and celebrate. Just take those things to Andie's PATH program and begin to watch the organization move because they can see where you want to go. And often I find that they don't know what words really mean. What does equitable mean? What does inclusion mean? What does belonging mean? We keep talking. Andie, thank you for joining me today. It's been a pleasure again. Andie Kramer: No, thank you very much for having me. I've enjoyed the conversation and hope that we can make that path forward to eliminating gender inequality in the workplace. Andi Simon: And I'm sure Beyond Bias will do just that. For all of our listeners and our viewers, thank you for coming. You keep sending me great people to interview. I happened to meet Andie through somebody who interviewed me and said, You got to talk to Andie Kramer. It's been great, a great colleague to have and a friend to know. Info@Andisimon.com gets your inquiries right to us. We enjoy listening and reading them and finding new people to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And remember, my books are available at Amazon, Barnes and Noble and anywhere else, and they're really cool. People keep coming back and saying that's a really cool book. So I would like to share my coolness with you. Thanks so much. Bye now.

Hear how to refuse to be held back, especially as a woman  I listened to Kerry Flynn Barrett give a marvelous talk recently about burnout for the Westchester Business Council and couldn't wait to share her ideas and insights with our fans. Careers like hers are common among many women I know who have started in a corporate job, moved up the ladder to higher positions in leadership, and then took off to form their own business. Kerry has done just that, and now she is building an exceptional business serving as a fractional CHRO officer and also a business partner and solutions provider. Do you wish to do this too? Listen in! Watch and listen to our conversation here Faced with a wall? Like Kerry, leap over it! In some ways, Kerry Barrett reflects the tensions women in business and corporations are feeling today. Perhaps exaggerated by the pandemic, women are abandoning the corporate ladder to find their own purpose and passion, much like she has done. Kerry spent her entire career in healthcare as a Human Resources executive. She, like so many women, has found that the wave of consolidations taking place these days strips employees, particularly women, of their roles and responsibilities, as centralization moves the decision-making process into other departments. So what do smart women like Kerry do? They craft another pathway and make it work for them. Women today are fleeing dead-end workplaces and starting their own businesses. As you listen to our conversation, think about your own path. Where are you on that corporate ladder? Give serious consideration to what you want to do with your life. As was clearly apparent in the McKinsey “Women in the Workplace 2022” report that came out in October 2022, women are finding the corporate world neither open to their expertise nor accommodating to their talent and ambition. Rather than trying to find a niche, they are leaving rigid workplaces to find others that see them as talented contributors, not women looking for a job. In some ways, many women I know, including myself, have had to confront the limits which corporations offer and discover other avenues where we can contribute, have a personal and professional purpose, and earn an excellent income. Perhaps it is time for business and corporate leaders to see what they are missing and rethink the place of women in their organizations. The women aren't waiting. In fact, they are very smart ladies on their own missions to build better businesses. To connect with Kerry, you can find her on LinkedIn, Twitter, or her website, or email her at kfb@flynnbarrett.com. Want to find a better workplace environment or strike out on your own? Start here: Blog: Businesses Must Sustain Diversity And Inclusion For Women Podcast: Christina Sistrunk—Is There Magic To Excel As A Strong Woman In A Man's Industry? Podcast: Jodi Flynn—How To Go From Dreaming To Doing, At Work And In Life Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants   Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. And as I say in every podcast, my job is to get you off the brink. Remember, this all came about after my first book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, was published and won an award. And everybody said, How do I get off the brink? And there's no better way to do it than to listen to the speakers on this podcast talk about how you can get better at whatever you're doing to change. Remember, people hate to change. And so our job is to make change your friend, embrace change, and see things through a fresh lens. And I say that because we decide with the eyes and with the heart and how it feels. And then our brains get engaged and you begin to think about it. So today, I'm absolutely delighted to have with me Kerry Flynn Barrett, and let me tell you about Kerry. Kerry gave a talk at the Westchester Business Council not too long ago. And I was just intrigued by her presentation. That topic was on burnout. But what was most interesting was her perspectives that came from a healthcare background, like my own. I did that for seven years in healthcare as an executive. I wasn't a nurse as she was, but I sure understood the feelings that you get when you're working with an organization of over 2500 or 5000 people, all of whom work hard to make your life better. And then she launched her business not long ago to be, of all things, a Chief Human Resource Officer. And she's going to tell you a little bit more about her journey. But the question she's asking is, Are you an organization that understands that people are your most valuable assets? And I must tell you, coming out of the pandemic, people are reaching out to us and asking us what to do because everything's changed. Managing individuals with individual needs and roles is challenging for even the best companies, and managing people is the hardest job, full stop. In fact, we can't get anything done as leaders or managers without followers. And why do people follow you? Are they bystanders? Are they invested in what you're doing? Do they believe in you? Every leader asked me the same question: "How do I get things done through others?" To begin with, how about with others instead of through them? It's an interesting question. Kerry, thank you for joining me today. Kerry Flynn Barrett: Thank you Andi so much for having me. It's such a pleasure. Andi Simon: Well, it was a pleasure to meet you. But let's tell our listeners and our viewers about your own journey. You have a great story to share. Please share it. Kerry Flynn Barrett: Sure. So I believe very strongly in the fact that we are all "a person" from the start. It doesn't mean that's what our journey will be where we began. So I began as a nurse. I have worked in healthcare for so many years. But that doesn't mean that's the only place where my journey was. So I was a nurse, an ICU and emergency department nurse, for over 12 years. And I love doing what I did. But then I switched over to the world of HR. And I worked in that field for 25 or so years, and loved every minute of it, really, truly. It's such a fascinating world. And when you think about it, it's all about working with people, right?, nursing, and HR. It's all about working with people and coming up with different strategies. And as I have said, and what I work in in my practice, I use the nursing process all the time in my practice. So it's all about that process. It's about how we assess what's going on in a scenario. We have to listen, as you said, we have to use our eyes. We also have to use our ears. So that's such an important part of my journey in going from nursing into HR. Three years ago, I started my own practice, Flynn Barrett Consulting, right before the pandemic. So probably all of you are saying, Oh my goodness gracious, how do you start a business and then boom, the pandemic hits. So I have been incredibly lucky. Or just happenstance to be in HR at a time in the pandemic when HR was really needed. So it's been quite the journey and even from the time of starting my business, that business has flowed very differently in the three years of time. So I refer to myself as a fractional chief HR officer. So I help companies with their HR strategy. And I use, as I said, the nursing process in what I do with companies. So,often companies come to me because they are having people problems. As we said, in companies, really the most important asset are their people. And this is such a difficult time in the world right now, with people finding new jobs, leaving their organizations, the great resignation. How many people are just really sick of hearing that term? I'm sick of hearing that term, or the other term, which is quiet quitting. I have employers saying to me, or CEOs saying to me, "How do I know that my employees are not quiet quitting?" Well, you know, this is one of the challenges that a lot of companies are facing. So people's problems are huge right now. So it is a lot of fun working at this time. But equally, there are so many challenges that are out there. And it doesn't mean that there is always the perfect solution for one company or if it is exactly the same solution for that next company. Andi Simon: Well, you know, Kerry, when we were preparing for this, I mentioned that we have several leadership academies. And the topic is around how does one get things done with others? That's the essence of a company. And sometimes people come to me and say, "We have an enormous retention problem. It's our culture, we want to go back to the culture of pre-pandemic." But what was that culture of pre pandemic? I love the Financial Times, my favorite reading in the morning, and its tremendous insights. In France, for example, they insist that you do not work on the weekends. You have your private time. Talking about burnout. And now I think Portugal and Spain have adopted this as well. The hardest part when you're remote working, is: what is the weekend? The weekend? And how do you do it? And then you have a hybrid? And there was great research from McKinsey, I was just reading, where women are perfectly happy not going back. And how are they using the time that they're not commuting? Well, they're doing all kinds of fulfilling things. Remember that work-life balance? Well, it got imbalanced, because now I have time to do life. And so there are real transformations going on. And as you shake your head, yes, our listeners, she's shaking her head. The question is, What are you seeing in your process analysis to help a client listening to think through what would I do now to begin to assess the major questions that are facing us as employers and employees to get our businesses really thriving? Your thoughts? Kerry Flynn Barrett: Well, I will tell you, very often, in this time, right now, employers are saying, Should I bring my employees back full time? That seems to be the top question. And my response is by answering it with a question: Why do you need to bring your employees back full time? And so I think it's important for that analysis to be done as to: Is it important for that particular business. And it does depend upon the business. Obviously, if we're talking about the hospitality business, that's a different story, and the healthcare business. Depending upon the position within the business, it makes a difference. If you're talking about a finance position within healthcare, that's a position that could be remote or hybrid, as opposed to a direct caregiver obviously needing to be in-person. So we need to be looking at this very specifically down to those nitty gritty details to make sense of whether or not we're bringing people back. So that makes a very big difference when we're talking about culture. And when I hear companies say, "Oh, I want to go back to what the culture used to be," or "Employees are being very demanding now," I will say, "Well, tell me what you mean by employees being very demanding?" "Well, my employees are saying that they require that they work hybrid." And so my response is always, "Well, is it something that works for your workplace for them to work hybrid?" "Well, yes, it does." "Well, then if it does, why is it that we're calling those employees demanding? Isn't it something that actually is working? And why aren't we working together as a team on what's best for your organization, rather than having more of an argument about it, and fighting about it?" So it's really fascinating because in my lifetime, I think about these demanding employees and I wish I could have been a little bit more demanding as an employee when I was earlier in my career. I probably would have done way better. But I don't think that in many cases, employees are actually being demanding. I think employers are actually looking at some scenarios, and actually looking at them now with rose colored glasses, but looking at them thoughtfully and saying, Does it really make a difference if I'm doing this work at home or in the office? And I recently actually wrote a blog about this. If in fact, we're bringing employees back to the office, and they're sitting in an office, and they're on Zoom calls in the office, what is the point? That just makes absolutely no sense. So then the employees feel like, "Well, you've really kind of duped me, that is just not really treating me as a professional." So if in fact, you have meaningful work for somebody in the office, and that makes sense, then absolutely. But if you don't, then let's really think about that twice. All in all, sit down with your employees, talk with your employees, listen to what their challenges are. Just listen to them for their ideas because they have great thoughts. That's why you hired them. Otherwise, it's not a great reflection on you if you think that you've hired people who aren't that smart. You hired them because they're smart, and you should listen to them. Andi Simon: I love the conversation where it's about feeling. Two things I want to add. I often preach, being an anthropologist as I am, that words create our worlds. And as I'm listening to you, I can hear the leadership, the C-suite, mimicking others who are all too often men thinking about their stature. And they're mastering being in the C-suite. And that is about demand, and owning and controlling the environment in which people are working. And I find that the most exciting clients I have are the ones who are asking the questions with a real openness to change the words that are creating their worlds, that we know that the challenge for humans is, we live the stories in our minds. And there's nothing more frightening than change because the cortisol is flying around there saying, Oh, fear this. But for those who are leading, pause for a moment and change the story: couldn't you be a leader in the next breed of companies that thrive and thrive? Remember, some of the major companies weren't perfect. For example, in a global company with everyone remote, take a look at what people can do if they aren't in the office. And the gig economy has become a really interesting, flexible workforce for you. But it requires you to change your mind. And don't be a copycat. Think about what it is that you can do and create something new. Because everything is new now. It's not what used to be, right? Kerry Flynn Barrett: That's right. It doesn't mean that just because somebody isn't working in front of you, that they're not working. And productivity can be measured in different ways than tracking someone's computer. Andi Simon: Now, that's a big topic. Are we moving to outcomes evaluation as opposed to punch cards? And time? Are we still in a machine model mode of a workplace? Are we managing minds? And I thought, I've been preaching for many years now that we've moved from managing hands to managing minds. But the mindset of coming back into the office feels like, "I kind of manage that person," as opposed to the product. What do you see? Kerry Flynn Barrett: I'm seeing a little bit of both. I'm seeing a little bit of both, and I think it depends upon the particular leader. I think that unfortunately, sometimes past practice or past performance of someone has created a fear factor. So for example, if a particular leader has had someone really perform poorly in the past, they have unfortunately taken that model and said, "Well, because X person did this, I'm not going to allow anybody else to do it." Instead of saying, "Okay, that person was the anomaly. And I'm going to allow others, who are professionals, to rise above and be able to do it." So unfortunately, I'm seeing some of that. And there's just too much of a fear factor. And I think that's because the threat of the recession is there. And I think there's just some fear of the recession and money. So there's a little bit more of that right now. But I think the more progressive leaders, to your point, are just more comfortable in their own skin, and more comfortable in their own practice. And they are very open to saying to the employees, What works best for you. Unless, of course, it is an environment where it is very dictated by, like a creative environment, where they do need to bring people together, for example. Andi Simon: Then we have the challenge of another generation. I often talk about demography is destiny. And so you have a workplace. I mean, I had one great client, whose board were mostly Boomers, and most of his new hires were all the Gen Ys and some Gen Zs. And they had very different ideas about everything. It was like they were foreign languages, both speaking English, but boy, they didn't understand each other at all. And so now you have that added to the mix. Are you finding that as well? Kerry Flynn Barrett: Absolutely, absolutely. But in addition to that, I don't really discuss that much about the generations as much as I discuss empowered workers, because I find that empowered workers can be of any generation. And I think sometimes those in Gen X and Gen Y are just like Millennials who get a bad rap. And they get kind of stereotyped as being difficult. And I don't necessarily find that to be the case always. And so it is funny, though, that I am seeing a lot of the empowered workers versus the seasoned workers, is what I refer to it as. And so there is somewhat of the seasoned workers who feel that the empowered workers need to go through this rite of passage. "We did this and we had to suffer, so therefore, you're going to have to do that." And I don't know, I don't understand that. Why would want anyone to have to go through something and suffer? Andi Simon: The interesting part is to your point, there's nothing reasonable or rational about it. It's a human symbolic transformation of coming from the outside to become part of us, and we control the space. So therefore, you can't get in unless we let you. But remember that Millennials are 50% of the workforce now. The Boomers, hang on tight, because the changes are coming. And somehow you got to embrace it. Kerry Flynn Barrett: Right. And I have said that to some of the companies that I've worked with: "You can stand there kicking and screaming, or you can accept, listen and learn. It's entirely up to you which way that you go. I could make a suggestion." Andi Simon: I actually had one situation where they gave the new hires the job of mentoring those who had been there a while. In other words, How do we introduce you to them instead of them taking charge of you, and you come in and really educate them as to the things that matter, because you are our future, let's face it, and if we can build it together into a future that will thrive. But there are also things you don't know, maybe those are all changed. I have one great client, and their buyers had all retired and their salespeople were calling their buyers, nobody was buying. And they didn't understand why nobody was answering the phone. And as we did the research, the retirees were replaced by 30-somethings, and they didn't answer the phone. And they weren't going to answer the phone, and they weren't going to buy on the phone and maybe because of one relationship. And it was sort of like, But what are we going to do? I said, I think you're gonna change. So you gotta figure this out. We're gonna have to figure it out. Now, when you spoke at the Westchester Business Council, you spoke about burnout. And I don't want to not discuss that, you had some great insights, because this word, you're telling me, let's not talk about the great resignation. I'm sort of looking around and saying, burnout is self-induced. You know, if in France you don't have to work on the weekend, is anyone telling you to work on the weekends? Or is anyone telling you to work all the time? And so can you share with our listeners and our viewers about your perspective on this thing called burning out? Kerry Flynn Barrett: Sure. So for sure. And some of it is self-inflicted. Some people are just naturally driven people, and they want to get ahead. I understand it, I'm a type A through to the core, always was, probably always will be. In my own business, I made the choice on how it is that I want to do things. So I get to work when I want to work. So I changed the whole structure of how I do it. So I understand it. I think that women have a very, very difficult time, especially those who were young in childbearing years and trying to get ahead in the workplace, who are trying to do everything. And I think that our work community isn't always as supportive of them, as it should be. And I don't know that women are equally as supportive of fellow women as we should be. And I think it is not always allowed or thought to be allowed, because of stigmas for somebody to stand up and say that they just really are burnt, they're just really burnt out and they need a break. I don't think a lot of women feel that they have opportunities to make career changes. I don't think that they think that they can take a break, and be able to come back into the workforce successfully. And so I think those are the types of things that we need to do a better job with. I hope we will do a better job with it. There are some groups that are really helping women with that. But I think that that is something that is a real challenge. And I think it is something that is real. And I think that there are corporations, some corporations are very, very helpful and known to be supportive of women in the workplace. Andi Simon: Well, that's an interesting word. Because whether it's gender bias, or it's understanding that women do have to care for children and what's wrong with that, can't we get a childcare center here to make it easier for them, and actually thinking about women as a whole, as opposed to another worker. And it's an interesting time. I always preach, never waste a crisis. Use the pandemic as an opportunity to think big. You know, the women aren't coming back after the pandemic the way the workplace could use them, right?, with a recession. But they just aren't; they basically are looking for jobs or careers that will allow them to balance in a different fashion. They've discovered they can work from home. And I used to coach women who were executives, and they were taking care of the laundry and cooking dinner and working on a computer and taking care of the kids and working on the computer and taking care of meetings and they didn't miss a beat. But they had life in a very different, very interesting fashion. And they said to me, "You know, this is really cool, I can get life done and also work." And I went, Oh, there's some kernels of real interesting stuff. Was it hard? Yes. But life is, unless you're going to be a stay-at-home mom. And that's hard. There isn't a thing, "easy," right? And I used to laugh. People would say, "I have to balance life and work." I said, "Isn't work life? And Isn't life work?" I mean, through words we do create our worlds. So you know, you have a challenging time of it. But as you guys were talking about burnout, there was this sense that if it's not in our hands, and we can't control it, it isn't really in the boss's hands either. And I've heard too many places who have said to their management don't talk about behavioral health, emotional well-being, it's not appropriate for us to talk about. I don't want to talk about it, and I'm saying to myself, Well, maybe it's not a bad time to put it in part of the discussion. Because, you know, 30% of Americans are depressed. And that's not just those who are unhealthy; way more, way more. And you can't simply all deal with it with a pill. So life has become challenging. It's never been easy. But I do think it's an interesting time to really rethink women in the workplace in a way that can be exciting and exhilarating, instead of painful, and why not? 60% of the college graduates are women, they're all smart. They're all looking for good opportunities. So as you're looking ahead, anything coming into your future or ours that we could share? Kerry Flynn Barrett: I do have to say this, Andi, just to go backwards a little bit. 30 years ago, I had a boss who told me that when I walked through the doors, I needed to park my life outside the door, when I walked in. And I had a 6-week old child. I told him that there was absolutely no way that I could ever possibly park my life outside the door. Okay, that was just not humanly possible for me as a thinking, breathing person to do that in order to be able to do my job. And he said, and I learned more from him, and I say this to this day, on what never to do as a boss. During the pandemic, there was a woman I knew who is a C-suite person and her 4-year-old was climbing over her, she was on a Zoom call. And all the other C-suite individuals were men. And she was criticized afterwards by her boss, because of the fact that her child was climbing on her. And she did the same work, just like everybody else. And it was not a problem. And she said to them, she said, "You do realize all of your wives probably were taking care of your children? And my husband was on his business call. And I didn't skip a beat on that call." So why is it that we criticize our women who are doing this? Totally unacceptable. So we have to do a better job. Andi Simon: Did they say anything to her? Or was it just simply her trying to establish the credibility? I mean, I couldn't agree with you and her more. But the attitude was, you know, don't mix that. I mean, "I didn't miss a beat on my call, I perform for you." Kerry Flynn Barrett: I met her boss and he said something to her afterwards that it was inappropriate for her to have her child in the call. So what's going forward? I think that we can do a much better job: for men, for women, for everyone, for transgender, for every single person in the workplace. I think we can be incredibly inclusive. I think that we could do a better job with just general equity. Just hearing about wage equity, thinking about that this morning. What's going on? November 1st is here tomorrow. New York City and Westchester County declaring wage equity. Thank goodness we're doing this. I think it's important for people to know that they have choices in the workplace. And then they should speak their mind. And if the workplace doesn't accept that, then maybe it's just not the right workplace for them. And there are people out there who will help them to find another workplace. So I think that's very important for people to know. Andi Simon: And the times, they are a-changing, like Bob Dylan told us. But I think that we can't go backwards. And when people say the pandemic put women back 30 years, it breaks my heart, but we can't let it happen and we must vote. And mostly for business's sake, our economy depends upon vibrant businesses, and women leading companies are doing amazing jobs. And it's a time for change. So let's embrace change and make it our friend, and see how great things can be. Kerry, one or two things you don't want the listeners to forget. Kerry Flynn Barrett: I just don't want people to stop listening. I mean, I think it's just the most important thing. And to stop and listen, to put your phone down. Don't be looking at your phone while you're listening. Whether or not it's your child, your husband, your employee, whatever it is, I really say to listen. I think that is the one thing that you could do for your employees. That's so important. And every single employee deserves 10 minutes of your time, whether or not it's once a week, once every two weeks. I think that is absolutely critical. And if you tell me you don't have time for that, then you and I could really talk, and we could talk about how you could better use your time that would help you so that you can find that 10 minutes of time. Andi Simon: And to add to that, that when you listen, try and stay focused on what they are saying, not what you're thinking, because our minds are trying to take the words they're saying and make sense out of them in the story that we have in our mind, not really what you're hearing. And I'll only tell you how many times in our careers, it wasn't what they said, it's what we heard. And it had nothing to do with what they meant. And that is ask questions to clarify. Kerry Flynn Barrett: Make sure you really understand. Andi Simon: And that means you cannot have your cell phone sitting there or your computer in front of you. This has been such fun. If they want to reach you, where could they do that, Kerry? Kerry Flynn Barrett: Oh, very simply, I'm on LinkedIn. My email is KFB so, easy to find me KFB@Flynnbarrett.com. I have my own website. It's www.Flynnbarrett.com. And please reach out to me on my website. And you can just send a quick question or an inquiry. I look forward to hearing from anybody. Andi Simon: If you want a very smart fractional Chief Human Resource Officer, or just a very sharp coach, or someone who can help you see, feel and think in new ways, meet Kerry Flynn Barrett, because she's here to help you do just what we love to do, which is to change and the times they are changing. And so for all of our listeners, thank you for coming. It's always so much fun to share with you smart people who are really here to help you do what I love: to see and feel and think in new ways. And remember, we're here to help your organization adapt to these fast changing times. Stay with us. Stay tuned and listen to some of the webinars and speeches that I have posted on our website. We're talking all the time about how to make change and how to embrace change, and particularly how to rethink women in the workplace. And on that note, I'll say have a great day. Remember our theme is take observation and turn it into innovation. I hope you've had a great day today. Bye bye now.

Download our Guide on “How To Reach $100M+ In Managed Assets” for FREE by going to https://financialadvisorsworkshop.com/ This episode's guest is Cristina Briboneria (https://oxygenfinancial.com/). Cristina is originally from Los Angeles, CA but has lived in Houston, TX, Cleveland, OH, and now resides in Atlanta, GA. Cristina graduated from Oberlin College with degrees in Mathematics and History. Earning her CFP® designation from Oglethorpe University. In January of 2009, she joined oXYGen and is, currently, a Managing Partner. Cristina has since helped build a successful practice with where her team works with over 4000 clients and manages nearly $1 Billion in assets. To see short videos of all our best Financial Advisor Workshop tips follow us on: TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@faworkshop Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/FinancialAdvisorsWorkshop YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFRh9BxjF0cT7PdkEhsg6lw Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FinancialAdvisorsWorkshop Twitter: https://twitter.com/FAsWorkshop iTunes:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/financial-advisors-workshop-with-brian-kasal/id1614768408 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4OB78889GRx2FHjvWtsyeE Website: https://financialadvisorsworkshop.com/ Interested in working at FourStar: https://fourstarwealth.com/Advisors DISCLAIMER: This content is provided by FourStar Wealth Advisors for the general public and general information purposes only. This content is not considered to be an offer to buy or sell any securities or investments. Investing involves the risk of loss and an investor should be prepared to bear potential losses. Investment should only be made after thorough review with your investment advisor considering all factors including personal goals, needs and risk tolerance. FourStar is an SEC registered investment advisor that maintains a principal business in the state of Illinois. The firm may only transact business in states in which it has filed or qualifies for a corresponding exemption from such requirements. For information about FourStar's registration status and business operations please consult the firm's form ADV disclosure documents, the most recent versions of which are available on the SEC investment advisory public disclosure website at www.adviserinfo.sec.gov

Hear how anthropology can send your business zooming to the top I love to read the Financial Times. It provides a very different perspective of the world from our US papers. As I was browsing recently, I came upon a story about Gillian Tett, FT's US Managing Editor, and her new book, Anthro-Vision. Curious as I am, my question was, What is a journalist doing writing a book about anthropology, and promoting AI (Anthropology Intelligence)? My joyful discovery was that Gillian is an anthropologist who became a journalist, a bit by chance and then by design. Her book is about the power of observation. Whether in Tajikistan as an aspiring anthropologist studying marriage rituals or reporting on a major conference before the financial crisis of 2008, she mastered the art of listening to the stories being told, the resistance to change that people demonstrate, and the wisdom an anthropologist can offer—if only others are willing to listen. As a fellow anthropologist, I am fascinated and I know you will be too. Enjoy. Watch and listen to our conversation here As anthropologists, our job is to see what is unseen Anthropologists love to observe, and by capturing the real lives of people, we offer insights that other data capture methods might complement or even might ignore. We know that people don't really know what they are doing and often tell you what they think you want to hear. It's their stories that offer opportunities to better ascertain the meaning of their daily lives and see the patterns that their cultures command.  In Gillian's book Anthro-Vision, there are wonderful stories about how cell phones have become the way in which kids growing up in the pandemic have built social lives, and why this is probably not going away. There is a great story about Bad Babysitters and how an anthropologist could open up their eyes to why they were messaging incorrectly to potential customers. She and I spoke at length about the social silence that gives us a view into what people are thinking. You will enjoy listening to her and love her book as I did. Our interview was at times deep and at others filled with humor, as we shared our journeys and who we are, not what we do. You can contact with Gillian onn LinkedIn.      Gillian's 5 big ways Anthropology Intelligence (AI) could help you:  Recognize that we are all creatures of our environments. Accept that there is no natural cultural frame. As humans, we create this diversity. Find ways to immerse ourselves in the minds and lives of others to gain empathy. Look at ourselves through the lens of an outsider to see ourselves more clearly. Listen to what is not said, that social silence.  To learn more about how we at SAMC apply corporate anthropology to businesses to help them get off the brink and soar, read the first chapter of my book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights. For a deeper dive into anthropology and how it can help your business thrive:         Blog: Will You Adapt Or Die? How Cultural Anthropology Can Transform Your Business Strategy Blog: What is Corporate Anthropology and Why Should I Try It? Podcast: Rita Denny—Maybe You Need Anthropology To See Yourself In New Ways Additional resources for you My award-winning second book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Simon Associates Management Consultants    Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide and my job is to get you off the brink. So I try to find people who are going to give you a fresh perspective, see things through a clear lens. Let's just step back and take a moment to be a little anthropological and begin to understand that you really don't know what's happening until you pause and think about it differently. And as you know, in my books, I help you see things through the eyes of my clients who all got stuck or stalled because their stories were so great that they couldn't see all the things that were going on around them. And that's why a little anthropology can help you change, grow and your companies get unstuck. As you know, I myself am a corporate anthropologist, which is why I'm so excited to bring to you today's guest. Today, Gillian Tett is with me. Let me tell you about why she's so special, and why you're going to enjoy watching her or listening to her. Listen carefully to the stories she has to tell. Gillian serves as the Chair of the Editorial Board and Editor at Large in the US of the Financial Times. Forgive me for reading this, but it's very important that you hear it. She writes weekly columns covering a range of economic, financial, political and social issues. She's also the co-founder of Financial Times Moral Money, a twice weekly newsletter that tracks the ESG revolution in business and finance, which has since grown to be a staple FT product. In 2020, Moral Money was the SABEW best newsletter. I'll tell you, it's a great newsletter. Previously, Gillian was a Financial Times US managing editor. And she's also served as assistant editor for the Financial Times markets coverage, and a lot of other things of great importance. I love to read theFinancial Times and I bet you do as well. She's the author of The Silo Effect, which looks at the global economy and financial system through the lens of cultural anthropology. She's also authored Fool's Gold: How Unrestrained Greed Corrupted a Dream, Shattered Global Markets and Unleashed Catastrophe, a 2009 New York Times bestseller and Financial Book of the Year at the inaugural Spirits Book Awards. I must tell you she has written really good books. I brought her here today because she has a new book out called Anthro-Vision. And as you might imagine, it touched me and my heart. And I read right through it. I couldn't stop because it was all about how, what she's calling AI, not artificial intelligence, but anthropological intelligence, more intelligence and a whole new perspective. And what I would like you to understand is how a little anthropology can, in fact, help you and your business see things through a fresh lens and why it's so important. Gillian, thank you for joining me today. Gillian Tett: Well, thank you for interviewing me. And it sounds like we not only have a lot in common, but a lot to learn from each other. I'm interested in your own career and your own story because it sounds fascinating. Andi Simon: Well, I have enjoyed reading about yours. But I'd like you to tell the listeners or the audience about who Gillian is because you've had a great journey that's taken you to many places. And as an anthropologist, I smiled. Just a little aside, I took my daughters when they were four and five to Greece to study Greek women. And I know you'd appreciate this, I learned a whole lot about the Greek woman through my children. I'm not sure what my children learned, but they still love me. And so that's all that matters. Tell us about yourself. Gillian Tett: Anyone who reads my biography would think that I'm thoroughly weird. That has been the reaction of many business leaders, political leaders, economists, grown-ups who pretend to run the world, when they hear about my background because most people who work in high finance or business assume that if you're going to be a journalist writing about them, you should have a PhD in economics or an MBA, or some kind of training in quantitative intellectual pursuits. And my background is actually in cultural anthropology. And I did a BA and then a PhD at Cambridge University in the UK. And what anthropology really is about is looking at human cultures and systems, and what makes people and societies tick, not just in terms of the obvious things that we recognize, but most importantly, the things that we tend to ignore around us all the time. Just like psychologists look at our hidden biases in our brains, anthropologists look at our hidden biases and patterns and assumptions in society. So in my case, I went into anthropology because I was fascinated by the rest of the world. I've always loved to explore and travel. And as a child, I dreamed of going to wacky weird places or places that seem weird to me. But like Indiana Jones, if you like the intellectual world, and cultural anthropology pretty much came out of that impetus in Victorian England, the idea that people would go off to other cultures to find the essence of what it meant to be human. And a lot of what anthropologists did in that way mid-century was indeed to go and travel. That's changed a lot in the 21st century. I'll come on to that in a moment. But I went off in my case to a place called Soviet Tajikistan in 1989. And I spent about a year and a half of my life up in the high mountains in Tajikistan living with a group of wonderful villages. I imagine most people listening are saying, I've got no idea where Tajikistan is on the map, or what it's like there. But basically, if you imagine the scenes you might have seen of Afghanistan on the news, and take out the black veils and put on very brightly colored clothes, then you roughly have the idea of what my village was like. It was in the high, high mountains of the Hindu Kush. And I was studying Tajik wedding rituals there. But I wasn't just studying wedding rituals, I was looking at these rituals and symbols and ceremonies, and all the economic exchanges associated with weddings as a key to try and understand how the Soviet Tajiks reconciled their identities of being Islamic and communist at the same time. Now, after I did my PhD, I then left Tajikistan. I actually became a journalist, originally a war reporter. And then I joined the FT and became an economics correspondent. And for the first few years, it felt as if all my training in cultural studies was completely irrelevant. But it's funny how life works. Because a few years after I started writing about finance, I suddenly realized that actually human beings are humans wherever they are. And in just the same way that I went studying Tajikistan wedding rituals in the Hindu Kush, and looked at how they use symbols and ceremonies to express ideas about their world. To give you an example, two investment bankers get together for gigantic ritualistic ceremonies called investment banking conferences, where they have all kinds of rituals like PowerPoints, and bar meetings, and golf tours. And those rituals and ceremonies and symbols also create social networks, and express all kinds of assumptions which could and should be studied through an anthropologist lens. So the latter part of my career has been all about trying to use this anthropological vision, and apply it to the world of business and finance and economics. And frankly, I think it's something that anybody could benefit from, particularly now, given that COVID has ripped up our normal lives and has thrown us all into culture shock. And we can all benefit by thinking about what makes us really tick. Andi Simon: When you think about that, you in your book play out some of the stories in there. You've provided us with a broad range of fascinating illustrations of the application of anthropology to different situations. Whether it was to a childcare center that wasn't doing well, or getting into pet care, or to the economic crisis of 2008 or what happened with Cambridge analytics, give us some illustrations, some case studies that are some of your favorites. The reason I ask is that, as you were describing, I could imagine being in the highlands of Russia. I took my kids to see what it was like to be a woman in Greece, and I studied the Greek immigrants and they returned to migration. But if you haven't done that, there's no way you know what it's like. And when you do it in modern society, in our businesses, people say, Well, what do you really do? I say, Well, I hang out a lot. And I listen a lot. And I'm looking for all the gaps that are on the sides of what people assume to be true. The only truth is, there's no truth, I tell people, and then they get really frustrated because it's all an illusion that we're living. So some illustrations, some great stories that you enjoy sharing about the ones that really make a difference. Gillian Tett: Well, one of the problems with anthropology and trying to communicate it in a corporate setting is that the corporate world likes to see things in shades of black and white, and things on PowerPoints. And anthropologists say, well life is grey and subtle and often contradictory. And in reality it is, that's really the only way to understand situations. But it's not always easy to boil down into a single chart. But for me, one of the most important moments in my own career was when I realized that actually the same tools I looked at Tajikistan weddings with in terms of analyzing and symbols could and should be applied to investment banking conferences. I went down to the Mediterranean in 2005 to an event called the European Securitization Board and looked at those rituals as if I was seeing them like an anthropologist. It showed me that the bankers that were engaged in that securitization business back in 2005 had all kinds of assumptions that they were barely aware of themselves which were distorting their vision of finance quite significantly and laying the seeds for the subsequent 2008 financial crisis. So when I looked at the bankers at play in their conference, I can see that they were a tribe set apart with a strong sense of their own identity. And like any social group that has a tight network, that was birthed and being reflected and reproduced in the banking conference. And they had a creation mythology. You know, every group has a creation mythology. Their creation mythology was that perfectly liquid markets, so called liquefaction of financial markets, was the ultimate perfect gold, the Holy Grail. And they were so addicted to this idea of a perfect free market. So they kind of failed to see all the contradictions in their creation mythology, like the fact that, although they were creating these innovations supposedly to make markets more innovative and more safe and more prone to perfect trading, most of these new products were so complex, they weren't being traded at all. And they weren't even able to value them with free market prices. Because it wasn't at the market prices, they had these models, the tools they were using to disburse risk were actually introducing new risks in the system because they were too complex for people to know where the risks were. And they said that these tools were done entirely to help people. But there were no faces in their PowerPoints. It was all Greek letters that indicated it wasn't just an accident that there were no faces. And their PowerPoints reflected a mentality that the end user had been kind of screened out of the way they saw finance. And you can say, well, that's kind of a pity. But actually, it had a really practical implication because what it meant was that the people creating new financial products were so caught up with the creation process, they couldn't actually see how the products were being used on the ground at the end of the financial chain. There's a wonderful scene in the movie, The Big Short, where a hedge fund trader goes and meets a pole dancer in Florida. Great scene. The financier, the hedge fund guy, goes, Holy crap, these people are doing this with subprime mortgages. And it was a real shock. And the thing that was shocking was not the fact that subprime mortgages were being used and abused on the ground, it was the fact that so few financiers could see what the end result was because they were so detached. So I came back from my conference, having spotted all this in terms of how the bankers were conducting their rituals, and it's one thing that led me to later warn that there was going to be a financial crisis. And I kept issuing those warnings over and over again. So that's one example where you can use anthropology tools to look at how a social group is blinkered and has blind spots that don't see, which can be dangerous. But in my book, I talk about ways that consumer industry groups can use anthropology to try and understand consumers, to try and understand what really drives fashions and trends to try. And also I've talked about how businesses can use anthropologists to see what's going wrong in their companies. General Motors did that very effectively several times. And you can also use anthropology to understand how other offices really work, or how they don't work. So almost any sphere of life where people are operating can benefit from some anthropology. Andi Simon: Often, I'll take a client with me out to their clients, to go spend a day in the life of their clients. So I'm going to teach you a little anthropology, I say. Let's go watch and see what's going on. You sell them solutions that you think are perfect. Let's watch how they're actually using them. Because to your point, if I went out and looked and came back, they would delete me. You didn't hear it, right? You didn't see it, right? So we go with them. And the two of us watch in the same factory exactly how it's being used. A sensor that's actually measuring the color of something or some technology that's being applied. Then we go out and we write down everything we saw. And the two of us were in two different places at the same time. We were each seeing completely different things. The conversation that follows is fascinating to me, because they're still trying to figure out what it was I was looking at and listening to. To your point, this is about listening and seeing and what they were listening to and why they were trying to fit it into their box. Like, you're a wonderful economist, we're trying to fit it into their illusion of reality, and what the reality actually was and I might claim as mine in a better reality, but I'm looking for the gaps for you and you're looking to fit it into your box, which may no longer be the right box anymore. And that's so important now, coming out of the pandemic The way we used to do things isn't any longer the way we're doing it. So people are hiring us to figure out, what do we do now? What's happening out there? Come watch with us. So as you were putting together your book, I have a hunch each of the stories touched you in some of the same ways.  Gillian Tett: I mean, the power of anthropology, in many ways I would argue, is essentially what you're doing is trying to engage in a three part journey. And the way I put it, that basically you are trying to simultaneously immerse yourself into the minds and lives of others so that you can understand them better. You're trying to not just immerse yourself in the mind of others, but really trying and seeing the world through their eyes in a kind of humble, open-minded way and to collide with the unexpected. You're trying to then use that knowledge to look back at yourself. Because, there's this wonderful Chinese proverb that a fish can't see water. None of us can see the assumptions that shaped us unless we periodically jump out of our fishbowl, go with other fish and talk to other fish and then look back at ourselves again with clarity of vision. And then you use that inside-outside perspective. The experience of being a stranger in your own land to not just look at the parts of the world that you talk about, the visible parts, but also the parts of the world that you don't talk about, or the assumptions that you ignore because they seem boring or geeky or dull or taboo or obvious. And that sort of three-part journey can be really powerful. An example: General Motors brought in an anthropologist to look at why some of its meetings were going so badly wrong, why some merging initiatives were going so badly wrong. There was an attempt in the latter part of the 20th century to create a sort of joint car between German and American engineers.They tried and tried for about two years to create a joint small car by bringing this team of engineers together. And at the time, they assumed the problem was because of linguistic differences. I know the tendency to think oh, those Germans don't understand the Americans and Americans didn't ask the Germans, because that was the obvious difference and distinction that was in everyone's faces. But some anthropologists observed the group and realized that actually it wasn't a straight story of German versus American clash. There was a bigger clash between different teams of Americans between Tennessee and Detroit. And because they all had very different cultures in their factories. And the really interesting thing was they kept calling meetings to try and resolve the problems without realizing that all three different groups had different ideas about what a meeting was and what the whole point of it was. The Germans thought it was basically to rubber stamp a decision that had already been taken and that it was very hierarchical  Their meeting didn't really count as work because work was what you did elsewhere. The Tennessee group thought that a meeting was there to kind of brainstorm and you had to have some kind of collaborative consensus-based system and they thought meetings were work. And the Detroit group had another idea all over again. So all of the people were coming into that meeting with different expectations, and because they weren't actually talking to each other in advance, and they weren't looking at the story behind the story, which is basically what were their different cultures, and what were their expectations of meetings, they kept wrongly describing it as a German-American thing, and it wasn't. So those patterns played out over and over again in offices. And it's really important to think about that now for two reasons. Firstly, most businesses right now are in the grips of radical tech transformation, as automation and digitization takes off. And that's creating a whole different bunch of cultural clashes, because the way that a group of techies in San Francisco are trained to think about meetings is not the same as say, a group of metal bashers in Detroit. But secondly, COVID and the pandemic and lockdown has challenged all of our ideas about how offices and work and meetings should happen. And we haven't been together in groups to kind of learn from each other and thrash it out. We've all been scattered and isolated. So within every company, the longer that COVID and lockdown has gone on for, the more you've created micro subcultures, who may be totally talking past each other all the time. And often exasperated senior managers who are middle aged, go, Oh, these millennials, they're so weird. But what about the age gap between different generations? Or maybe just the fact that different subcultures are growing up inside companies as we're scattered. And as we return hopefully to the office, different cultural patterns will develop all over again, and we need to think about it. Andi Simon: Well, you're not Malinowski, and you're not going off like Margaret Mead to a small island. To some degree, that's just what's happened during this pandemic, islands have been created. And as we're watching them...for example, I have a wonderful client that I'm going on my fifth year with them all in transformation. And they used to give remote work as a benefit to their partners and their employees, until the pandemic hit and everyone went remote. All 70 employees. Now they can't get them back into the office. And they said, Well, what was valued before as a benefit, it's now a penalty. And how do you take the same thing: remote work one minute is wonderful and in one minute it's awful. What are the values that are coming, and the partners are lonely. And the reason they want them back together is for human companionship. And what's so interesting for me is to watch the dynamics going on. Because they don't find a way to articulate what really matters here. It isn't about having them come back in the office, and that's not bad, and people decide with feelings. Their logic is, Well, I don't have to commute for an hour plus, I can get so much work done. Why do I have to be there to have lunch together, we're not going to do that. I mean, it's so interesting to watch the head and the hearts here at odds with each other on this island that I'm not quite sure was perfect before. And I'm not quite sure it's so bad right now, but nobody's quite sure what we should do to build coming out of it. And I have a hunch this is the proliferation of islands that all of us are watching happen across the country and across different industries. It's really interesting as an anthropologist to step back and just observe and laugh a little and cry a little bit too. Gillian Tett: I guess the point that you know very well that you've seen in your own kind of work, which is so important, is that we need to talk not just about what people are obviously talking about all the time, that's in your face, but also we need to always ask ourselves in any context, whether we're in an office or any other setting, What are we not talking about? What are we missing? What is the story behind the story? What's the context? And one of the ways I try to illustrate that point is through an issue that isn't to do with work. Practically, everyone who's middle aged with teenage kids is grappling with why are teenagers so addicted to their cell phones? And if you ask people that question, they go, it's because of cell phone technology. Or is it because of those wretched teenagers or it's because you know, evil tech companies are busy designing algorithms, which are addictive? Certainly that's true to some degree. But the reality is that you can't understand teenage cell phone usage without stepping back and looking at what people don't talk about, which is how teenagers move in the real physical world. And if you go back 100 years, teenagers had a lot of opportunities to physically roam, to meet their friends on the streets, even 50 years ago, they went to the shopping mall. They cycled to school. They would hang out with their friends on the fields, without parents watching every move. But in the 21st century, and even before lockdown, you had a whole generation of middle class American teenagers, particularly in suburbs, who essentially are overscheduled. They are driven everywhere by their parents constantly being monitored. And then you go into the pandemic, and suddenly this sense of physical constraint is even more extreme. So is it any surprise that you have a generation of people who think that the only place as a teenager that you can test boundaries, congregate spontaneously, explore the world without parents watching is online, in cyberspace? You can't talk about cyberspace experience without looking at the physical world. That's the social silence, to use a word that anthropologists sometimes use. And that model or metaphor applies over and over again to almost any aspect of modern life. Andi Simon: You said something very profound and well worth emphasizing. The times make the man or the man makes the times. Here we have a transformation of trust and of safety. When I was a kid growing up, we would go outside and play stickball on the street, and get on my bike and ride to the mall to go shopping with nobody. As my kids grew up, we began to realize how much more structured their lives were without thinking about the implications of it. I don't think we spend our time saying that's good or that's not good. We sort of flow with what society is doing and then you have all of the after effects of transformation. I've had several university clients who are frustrated because they couldn't get their Gen Ys, now the Gen Zs, to come in and play athletics. They spent their days on video games. And they were much happier playing a video game and not coming in to go play baseball or basketball or watch them. And socializing with more challenges. I actually had a grownup client, a professional, who spent his weekends playing games. His whole friendship network was there. And as an observer, I said, Oh, this is really a pure point, a transformation of our society without much intentionality here, if you know the world he was in, he never met any of the folks that he played with, which by itself was sort of an interesting and new and bizarre society in which we're in. You know, as you're thinking about what's coming next, I don't know when the pandemic is really going to end or if we're going to live in a COVID world for a while. Are you? As this is a futurist podcast, I would like to ask what are the signs you're seeing? What do you hear coming through? I have a hunch, you're picking up little signals already that you're curious about? Because I know I am. What do you see? Gillian Tett: Well, I think that people have been forced to re-examine how they're living. And what is fascinating was the late 20th century was a time when people had quite rigid boundaries between home and work in many professional contexts. Not always, but most western professionals thought that the office was a place you worked in, you might bring work back to home. But that was separate, you had a work time and a home time. You had your office colleagues, your friends, your family, they all sat in different buckets and we took that for granted. The reality is that actually that pattern of the 20th century is an absolute aberration throughout most of human history, and even throughout many parts of the world today. And what COVID has done has tossed most of us back into a state of being something like a peasant farmer, where your house is your locus of work, and your family is mixed up with your colleagues and everything else. And we may not like it, but it certainly challenged our boundaries. I don't think it'd be that easy for people to recreate those boundaries in such a rigid way going forward. A second change that's happened, which is not so bad, is because we've been locked down in our own groups, I think maybe we've become myopic. We've basically been locked down with people just like us, our pod, our friends. And people thought initially that when we went online, we would somehow break down our tribalism. Quite the reverse has happened because the key thing to understand about the internet is that it allows us to customize our identities and experiences in a way that's never been possible before. And I think it's changed our vision of how we as individuals relate to society. You know, most societies in human history have seen the individual as a derivative of society.  We're a cog that fits into a machine with identities that are pre-assigned. You know the enlightenment in Europe and this idea that we are the center of our society.  The "me generation." "I think, therefore I am." Society's derivative of me. 21st century with digital tools has given us the capability to basically customize our world as we want to know. We customize our coffee choices, our media sources, our friendship groups, and identities online. We customize our music tastes. Today's generation doesn't want to have a vinyl record, which has been pre-assembled with someone else. We want our own pick of a mix of music to listen to when we want, exactly what we want. And that's really a shift that's been exacerbated by the pandemic because we've been so reliant on cyberspace. And it's made us even more tribal, I think, in a very bad way. Another shift that's happened is that people's sense of the future, being a predictable, rigid path that goes in one direction has been shaken by the pandemic. Late 20th century was a time where most Westerners had lived a pretty stable life, pretty predictable life...no longer. And it was also a world where people thought okay, so I have business economics in one bucket, and sort of a do-gooding environment, social issues in another. And I think, again, that's breaking down. And you can see that in the corporate world where, essentially, companies are realizing that environmental, social and governance issues aren't just about activism, they're about risk management, about making sure that you don't suffer reputational risks, or the loss of assets that lose value if the regulatory climate change changes, and you don't alienate your customers and your employees. So people are no longer seeing business in just such a rigid tunnel vision way, it's more about lateral vision. And that's very, very important. And last but not least, I'd say that another shift has been in terms of cryptocurrencies and finance. In some ways, the move into cryptocurrencies, the move into meme stocks, is also part of this pick and mix culture. Patterns of trust are changing. As anthropologists, we used to say there was either vertical trust, or horizontal trust, where people trusted each other in peer-to-peer groups. This provides a social group glue to keep groups together. Or, you had vertical trust, which was trust in institutions and leaders on a large scale. It was presumed that when you had big groups, you couldn't have horizontal trust. Digital platforms have enabled something called distributed trust to explode. Suddenly, huge groups of people can do things on the basis of trusting each other via digital tools. That's how Airbnb operates. It's also how most cryptocurrencies operate. You trust the crowd through a digital platform, but not through an organizational hierarchy. And that's, again, changing people's attitude toward money and value and exchanges in a fascinating way. Andi Simon: If we write about this in about five years, we will have captured a major catalytic moment transforming society. If you listen to the multipliers of what we've just described, when I work with my own CEOs, mostly mid-market size clients, they are becoming far more stuck, stalled and immobilized than they've ever experienced in the past. They don't know what to do. And what's so fascinating to me is that they really don't know what to do. And they're not willing to go out of their corner office, out of their comfort zone to begin to see. And so they're really struggling with whether or not their businesses are going to survive. And there's no reason why they can't survive, they just have to change. And all of a sudden, that entrepreneurial spirit that got them there is stalled. And the certainty you spoke about, I'm not sure that was true, or an illusion that humans prefer certainty versus being fragile. But in fact, it's really raising up those people who can see opportunity in being agile, and I'm willing to change. The brain hates me when I go into a company to say, You're going to change and immediately all that cortisol is produced, and they go, Oh, please get out of here. But in fact, I do think there's going to be a training ground now for the agility that's needed for the next phase. Because as we come out of this, it's not going to be certain either, and nobody can really plan the way they might have thought. And I don't think that you should plan anything. I think you should try to be nimble, agile, adaptive, and talk to people. You speak about the silence, it's a great time to start listening. Just talk to people and you don't have to do it in person if you don't want to, but you can try. But I do think it's a time to listen to each other and not decide anything, just pull it in and just be anthropologists. Just listen to the conversations. Judith Glaser has a wonderful book on conversational intelligence, that you start by saying all of society are conversations. And I truly think that's a simple way of saying, Yep, just listen to each other. But the conversations are hanging out, and begin to think about what's really going on in those conversations. It's a little like that picture of that scene when they say, Who's doing the subprime mortgages. What are we missing? You have some great five big things in Anthro-Vision. Do you want to share them with our audience? I guess I'm pushing people to bring a little anthropology into your life. It's important and one of those five things. Gillian Tett: Absolutely. Well, having said you can't boil anthropology down to a PowerPoint, here's my PowerPoint. Lesson one: recognize that we're all creatures of our own environment. In a cultural sense, we're all fundamentally shaped by a set of assumptions that we inherit from our surroundings that we never usually think about. And they matter. Lesson two: recognize that just because we are shaped by sort of assumptions, that doesn't mean they're universal. It sounds very obvious, but the reality is that it's human nature to assume that the way that we live and operate and function is not just inevitable, but natural and proper, and that everyone else would kind of live like us. And guess what, there's a multitude of different ways to live and think, and if you think that yours is the only right way, you're going to suffer badly in business. Lesson three: coming out of this is to take time to immerse yourself periodically in the minds and lives of people who seem different from you. In my case, I went to Tajikistan, which for someone having grown up in England, it was very, very different indeed. But you don't have to go to the other side of the world of Hindu Kush. Just go talk to someone down the end of your road who lives in a different world. Go talk to someone in a different department, go take a different route to work, go swap a day with someone with a different profession. And if you can't do it physically, because of the pandemic, get online and basically explore another tribe online. And then mentality: I mean, just change the people you follow on Twitter, say for a week, and you'll see a completely different perspective on life. And then lesson five: for us, the experience of immersing yourself in the minds of others to become a stranger in your own land, and to look back at yourself with fresh eyes, and see what a stranger would consider to be weird or shocking, or impressive about how you live and your assumptions. And think about what you're not thinking about. What are the parts of your life that you're ignoring, the social silences, often thinking about the rituals that you're using in your everyday life, the symbols, the patterns that you use to organize your space, and your family groups, or your time. Those can often be very revealing, if you step back and look at them with an inside or outside his eyes. You know, why would you consider it to be odd to keep your hairbrush in the fridge? What does that mean? I mean, what are you missing? Well, what is one of your ideas about different body parts and about your mouth versus your hair, or you know all these inbuilt assumptions, which you take for granted, but are often very revealing. There's nothing wrong with the patterns we inherit from our surroundings, unless we remain prisoners of them and cannot imagine alternatives. And right now, as we come out of the pandemic, try to reimagine the world and recover and rebuild. It really is time to have an open mind, particularly after a pandemic that's kept us locked down mentally and physically, and in danger of being captured by tribalism. Andi Simon: What a beautiful ending, Gillian. Thank you so much. I've had such fun. It's fun to wander with you. Any last thoughts? How can they reach you? And how can they buy your book?  Gillian Tett: First, let me say what a great joy it has been to do this with you. And I greatly salute what you've done in your own career, which is fascinating. I write for the Financial Times, twice a week with columns. I also oversee a platform called Moral Money, which is the ESG sustainability platform at the FT, which is a newsletter that goes out three times a week. And my new book, Anthro-Vision, is out on sale. I should say last but not least, as another sign of culture, if you're listening to this in America, you can find my book Anthro-Vision, with a bright red jacket cover, and a picture of me on the back wearing a bright red top looking like Fox TV because that sells in America. If you pick up my book in the UK, or any part of the former Commonwealth as they say, you'll find my book is sold with a nice white understated cover with a picture of me on the back, wearing a blue shirt on a stoop clutching a cup of coffee. The British publishers thought that a picture of me looking like a Fox TV babe was too scary for the British market. And therein lies a story about why culture matters. Andi Simon: And you hope they're right. Well, I think that for the listeners, and our audience, whether you're watching this or listening to us, it's been truly a special time to share the essence of On the Brink with Andi Simon, our podcast, but my job is to help you get off the brink helping you to see, feel, and think through a fresh lens. There is so much going on today that's going to expand in a positive way the possibilities that are before you. It's the art of possibilities now. And rather than trying to go back...people say, I can't wait till the old comes back. It's not coming back because I don't even know what the old was and you don't either. But you also know that the new is giving you opportunities that are tremendous. Think about them in a positive way and you'll see them turning lemons into lemonade or limes into margaritas as somebody said to me recently. It's a great time. Gillian, thank you for joining me today. And for our listeners, don't forget, here's what I'd like you to do. I get emails from across the globe at info@Andisimon.com. You send me your ideas, you send me people whom you want me to interview. Send them to me, give me some ideas about topics that would be cool for you. I actually am doing a Leadership Academy and one of the gentlemen there, a physician, said, You know, my sons are listening to your podcast, and I laughed, and I said, How old? Eight and ten! I said, so that's my target audience. And I will keep talking to them, but they should listen because I think they and you will really benefit from understanding how a little anthropology can help you and your business soar. Bye bye now. Stay well. Bye bye.

Du surfst gerade im Internet, deine Mutter ruft deine Tante an, um zu plaudern und bei dir stürzt alles ab?! Ein bekanntes Szenario? Ja dann herzlichen Glückwunsch: Du gehörst zur Generation Y. Zur Generation Y zählen offiziell all jene, die zwischen 1981 und 1996 geboren sind. Sie wird als die digitale Generation beschrieben, weil sie die erste Generation aller Zeiten ist, in deren Leben das Internet aufgekommen ist. Das sind aber nicht die einzigen prägenden Merkmale dieser Generation, die auf dem Weg zur Macht ist! Geht man die Konzernspitzen der ganz grossen «Einhörner», also Unternehmen, die mindestens 1 Milliarde US-Dollar wert sind, wie beispielsweise Rocket Internet, Hello Fresh und Zalando durch, fällt sofort auf, dass sie alle der Generation Y angehören. Was bedeutet das genau für Unternehmen? Was für Skills bringt die Generation Y überhaupt mit? Wie nimmt sie die Vorgeneration wahr? All diese Fragen beantwortet Christoph, der übrigens der Generation Y angehört und bereits am Schalthebel rumwerkelt, in dieser Folge des InnoPodcast. Zudem erklärt er, was Facilitation bedeutet und wie es das bisherige Führungsverständnis auf den Kopf stellt. Christoph Bornschein hat an der Freien Universität Berlin Jura studiert und war bei einigen Agenturen unterwegs, bis er 2008 die Digitalagentur Torben, Lucie und die gelbe Gefahr (TLGG) gründete. Inzwischen zählen sie 250 Mitarbeitende mit Büros in Berlin und New York. Sie beraten Marken und Unternehmen in den Bereichen digitaler Wandel, vernetzte Kommunikation und digitale Geschäftsinnovation. Zu den Kunden zählen Swisscom, Netflix, Mont Blanc, Lufthansa und viele mehr. Bei einigen Unternehmen ist/war Christoph bereits in den Aufsichtsrat gerückt, darunter LichtBlick, Lufthansa Innovation Hub und die Deutsche Bank. Und noch was: Seit anfangs März ist Christoph Young Global Leader (YGL) beim World Economic Forum – Herzliche Gratulation! ***** 0:12 Intro und Gen Y bei TLGG 3:48 Merkmale der Gen Y… 7:02 …und warum diese notwendig für Transformation sind 8:51 (K)eine Bewertungskompetenz im Management 10:18 Gen Ys in der deutschen Politik auf dem Weg in die Macht 12:48 Wie die „verlorene Generation“ die GenY wahrnimmt 21:28 GenY und ein etabliertes Logistikunternehmen in der Schweiz 23:38 Facilitation Leadership 27:45 „Warum?“ als Treiber des Microenterprise-Ansatzes 34:58 FFF als Blueprint für das Zusammenspiel von GenY und GenZ 37:04 Outro und Message an die EspaceLab Community ***** Viel Spass beim Hören dieser Folge des #InnoPodcast. Folge unserem Kanal. Teile diese Folge in deinem Netzwerk. Du findest uns überall, wo es Podcasts gibt. Schick uns dein Feedback zum Podcast gerne als Kommentar oder via E-Mail an espacelab@post.ch. Oder besuche uns auf https://www.post.ch/de/ueber-uns/innovation/open-innovation/espacelab ***** Über den Host Khalil Bawar stellt im InnoPodcast Geschichten der Heldinnen und Helden vor, die auf ihrem spezifischen Sektor Veränderung vorantreiben. Er ist überzeugt, dass diese (Erfolgs-) Geschichten bei der Transformation helfen und die Post, die Schweiz und die Welt miteinander verbinden. Khalil ist nicht nur Host des InnoPodcast, er leitet auch das EspaceLab, das Innovationslabor der Schweizerischen Post.

Kate Fennessy’s writing her first novel, and Helen Brown’s going to help her.Welcome to our podcast Novel Therapy. How to make life your best creative project ever.When we're not talking about cats, we'll discuss how hot to make a sex scene and if there's really such thing as writer's block.While Kate shares the latest trends in social media, New York Times bestselling author Helen will explain why it's normal for an author to gain 10kg with every book she writes.We'll also chat about why Kate loves men's beards and Helen can't stand them. Who says Gen Ys and Baby Boomers can't get along?It's therapy. And it's novel. It's got to be good for you.Join the discussion on our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1120913041436892/Watch us on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9V9mYEic-14WZBkoSu6AjgHelen's audio version of Cleo:Audible: https://adbl.co/2wL5b1oAmazon: https://amzn.to/2xEviqR

Kate Fennessy’s writing her first novel, and Helen Brown’s going to help her.Welcome to our podcast Novel Therapy. How to make life your best creative project ever.When we're not talking about cats, we'll discuss how hot to make a sex scene and if there's really such thing as writer's block.While Kate shares the latest trends in social media, New York Times bestselling author Helen will explain why it's normal for an author to gain 10kg with every book she writes.We'll also chat about why Kate loves men's beards and Helen can't stand them. Who says Gen Ys and Baby Boomers can't get along?It's therapy. And it's novel. It's got to be good for you.Join the discussion on our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1120913041436892/Watch us on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9V9mYEic-14WZBkoSu6AjgMulberry Hill: https://www.nationaltrust.org.au/places/mulberry-hill/Alice Munro: https://www.facebook.com/alicemunroauthor/

Kate Fennessy’s writing her first novel, and Helen Brown’s going to help her.Welcome to our podcast Novel Therapy. How to make life your best creative project ever.When we're not talking about cats, we'll discuss how hot to make a sex scene and if there's really such thing as writer's block.While Kate shares the latest trends in social media, New York Times bestselling author Helen will explain why it's normal for an author to gain 10kg with every book she writes.We'll also chat about why Kate loves men's beards and Helen can't stand them. Who says Gen Ys and Baby Boomers can't get along?It's therapy. And it's novel. It's got to be good for you.Join the discussion on our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1120913041436892/Watch us on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9V9mYEic-14WZBkoSu6Ajg

Kate Fennessy’s writing her first novel, and Helen Brown’s going to help her.Welcome to our podcast Novel Therapy. How to make life your best creative project ever.When we're not talking about cats, we'll discuss how hot to make a sex scene and if there's really such thing as writer's block.While Kate shares the latest trends in social media, New York Times bestselling author Helen will explain why it's normal for an author to gain 10kg with every book she writes.We'll also chat about why Kate loves men's beards and Helen can't stand them. Who says Gen Ys and Baby Boomers can't get along?It's therapy. And it's novel. It's got to be good for you.Join the discussion on our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1120913041436892/Watch us on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9V9mYEic-14WZBkoSu6AjgSHOW NOTESPauseFest: https://www.pausefest.com.auOur podcast live event with Peninsula's Writers' Club: https://www.trybooking.com/book/event?eid=596606&fbclid=IwAR1GUoIbJxsnxz5JNDg5DPTPYqY3_zu__cPjLNRJkDeOgrEwAFSOO8iUtS0 Swell Creative: https://www.swellcreative.com.au

Aspiring writer Kate Fennessy’s trying to write a novel, and New York Times bestselling author Helen Brown’s going to help her.Welcome to our podcast Novel Therapy, the first-time writer’s clinic.When we're not talking about cats, we'll discuss how hot to make a sex scene and if there's really such thing as writer's block.While Kate shares the latest trends in social media, Helen will explain why it's normal for an author to gain 10kg with every book she writes.We'll also chat about why Kate loves men's beards and Helen can't stand them. Who says Gen Ys and Baby Boomers can't get along?It's therapy. And it's novel. It's got to be good for you.Join the discussion on our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1120913041436892/Watch us on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9V9mYEic-14WZBkoSu6AjgCleo + Rob: https://www.amazon.com.au/Cleo-Rob-Helen-Brown-ebook/dp/B07TNJLL5D/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=cleo+and+rob&qid=1574911138&sr=8-1Coppucino podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/coppuccino/id14342221597pm Social https://www.paperboatdigital.com/7pm-socialhttps://missmornipenni.com/shop/Tania Chandler: https://chandlertania.wordpress.comBehind Every Great Woman is a Great Cat: https://www.booktopia.com.au/behind-every-great-woman-is-a-great-cat-lulu-mayo/book/9781912785063.html

Hear how blockchain, IoT and big data are transforming our world! This spring, I was a guest on Peggy Smedley’s ConstructechTV, a highly influential TV show about technology, blockchain and the construction industry. It was such an enjoyable interview that I asked Peggy to share her ideas about technology and construction with our On The Brink listeners. In this podcast, we talk about the challenges she sees in an industry that is well-established, resistant to change, heavily dependent on human labor, and not able to see “what is all around them.” Not hard to see why we connected. Lots to learn here; be sure to listen in. Problem: not many young workers going into the construction trades As Peggy shares with us, with so many opportunities for work, construction is just not top on the list for younger men, or women, for that matter. The second problem is that once construction companies hire an employee, it's tough to hold on to them. Retention is as big an issue as recruiting, says Peggy, because it's not just about money.  So, who is the future worker who is going to build our homes, our roads, our offices and our communities? What can construction companies do today to change their workspaces to better align with the interests and needs of the Gen Ys, Gen Zs and even Gen As of tomorrow? More blockchain? More robots? More conversations about how “we” are going to succeed together? Clearly, some major culture change needs to happen, because we need construction workers. But do up-and-coming workers need construction? About Peggy Smedley As the founder of the Peggy Smedley Institute, a top-ranked professional education organization focused on providing comprehensive assessments of its clients' roles within IoT (Internet of Things), Peggy is a recognized pioneer in the M2M and IoT spaces and an outspoken advocate and supporter of security and connected devices. As well as an entrepreneur, executive, strategist and highly regarded editor, she is also an author, whose book, "Mending Manufacturing: How America Can Manufacture its Survival," provides an in-depth analysis of the American manufacturing crisis. A frequent guest on business and news TV programs, a leading voice on nationally syndicated radio shows, and an expert in wireless technologies affecting construction, mobile and business strategies, Peggy has helped thousands of companies develop M2M/IoT solutions, products and devices. In addition, her podcast, The Peggy Smedley Show, has been called America's most influential IoT podcast.  You can connect with Peggy at @ConnectedWMag. Need to get up to speed on blockchain, IoT and the digital revolution? These blogs and podcast can help: Blog: Unbelievable Blockchain Changes Coming to the Construction Industry Blog: Your Data Is Talking To You. Are You Listening? Podcast: Michael Gale—The Digital Transformation Coming to You Additional resources Peggy's website: Peggy Smedley Institute Peggy's book: "Mending Manufacturing: How America Can Manufacture its Survival"  My book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights" Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants

Aspiring writer Kate Fennessy’s trying to write a novel, and New York Times bestselling author Helen Brown’s going to help her.Welcome to our podcast Novel Therapy, the first-time writer’s clinic.When we're not talking about cats, we'll discuss how hot to make a sex scene and if there's really such thing as writer's block.While Kate shares the latest trends in social media, Helen will explain why it's normal for an author to gain 10kg with every book she writes.We'll also chat about why Kate loves men's beards and Helen can't stand them. Who says Gen Ys and Baby Boomers can't get along?It's therapy. And it's novel. It's got to be good for you.Join the discussion on our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1120913041436892/Watch us on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9V9mYEic-14WZBkoSu6Ajg

Aspiring writer Kate Fennessy’s trying to write a novel, and New York Times bestselling author Helen Brown’s going to help her.Welcome to our podcast Novel Therapy, the first-time writer’s clinic.When we're not talking about cats, we'll discuss how hot to make a sex scene and if there's really such thing as writer's block.While Kate shares the latest trends in social media, Helen will explain why it's normal for an author to gain 10kg with every book she writes.We'll also chat about why Kate loves men's beards and Helen can't stand them. Who says Gen Ys and Baby Boomers can't get along?It's therapy. And it's novel. It's got to be good for you.Join the discussion on our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1120913041436892/Watch us on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9V9mYEic-14WZBkoSu6AjgHelen's recommendation: The Detectorists (Netflix) https://www.netflix.com/title/80065658

Aspiring writer Kate Fennessy’s trying to write a novel, and New York Times bestselling author Helen Brown’s going to help her.Welcome to our podcast Novel Therapy, the first-time writer’s clinic.When we're not talking about cats, we'll discuss how hot to make a sex scene and if there's really such thing as writer's block.While Kate shares the latest trends in social media, Helen will explain why it's normal for an author to gain 10kg with every book she writes.We'll also chat about why Kate loves men's beards and Helen can't stand them. Who says Gen Ys and Baby Boomers can't get along?It's therapy. And it's novel. It's got to be good for you.Join the discussion on our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1120913041436892/Watch us on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9V9mYEic-14WZBkoSu6AjgHelen's new children's book, Cleo & Rob: https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/books/childrens/Cleo-and-Rob-Helen-Brown-illustrated-by-Phoebe-Morris-9781988547350 Kate's recommendation, Beastie Boys Book https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/232195/beastie-boys-book-by-michael-diamond---adam-horovitz/

Aspiring writer Kate Fennessy’s trying to write a novel, and New York Times bestselling author Helen Brown’s going to help her.Welcome to our podcast Novel Therapy, the first-time writer’s clinic.When we're not talking about cats, we'll discuss how hot to make a sex scene and if there's really such thing as writer's block.While Kate shares the latest trends in social media, Helen will explain why it's normal for an author to gain 10kg with every book she writes.We'll also chat about why Kate loves men's beards and Helen can't stand them. Who says Gen Ys and Baby Boomers can't get along?It's therapy. And it's novel. It's got to be good for you.Join the discussion on our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1120913041436892/Watch us on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9V9mYEic-14WZBkoSu6AjgConnect with Kate Lister at https://www.instagram.com/mindbody_integration/Kate's recommendation, Shrill: https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/program/shrill

Aspiring writer Kate Fennessy’s trying to write a novel, and New York Times bestselling author Helen Brown’s going to help her.Welcome to our podcast Novel Therapy, the first-time writer’s clinic.When we're not talking about cats, we'll discuss how hot to make a sex scene and if there's really such thing as writer's block.While Kate shares the latest trends in social media, Helen will explain why it's normal for an author to gain 10kg with every book she writes.We'll also chat about why Kate loves men's beards and Helen can't stand them. Who says Gen Ys and Baby Boomers can't get along?It's therapy. And it's novel. It's got to be good for you.Join the discussion on our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1120913041436892/Watch us on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9V9mYEic-14WZBkoSu6Ajg

Description: Aspiring writer Kate Fennessy’s trying to write a novel, and New York Times bestselling author Helen Brown’s going to help her.Welcome to our podcast Novel Therapy, the first-time writer’s clinic.When we're not talking about cats, we'll discuss how hot to make a sex scene and if there's really such thing as writer's block.While Kate shares the latest trends in social media, Helen will explain why it's normal for an author to gain 10kg with every book she writes.We'll also chat about why Kate loves men's beards and Helen can't stand them. Who says Gen Ys and Baby Boomers can't get along?It's therapy. And it's novel. It's got to be good for you.Join the discussion on our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1120913041436892/Watch us on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9V9mYEic-14WZBkoSu6Ajg

Aspiring writer Kate Fennessy’s trying to write a novel, and New York Times bestselling author Helen Brown’s going to help her.Welcome to our podcast Novel Therapy, the first-time writer’s clinic.When we're not talking about cats, we'll discuss how hot to make a sex scene and if there's really such thing as writer's block.While Kate shares the latest trends in social media, Helen will explain why it's normal for an author to gain 10kg with every book she writes.We'll also chat about why Kate loves men's beards and Helen can't stand them. Who says Gen Ys and Baby Boomers can't get along?It's therapy. And it's novel. It's got to be good for you.Join the discussion on our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1120913041436892/The Crown on Netflix, Kate's current obsession: https://www.netflix.com/title/80025678Death on Play School: https://ab.co/2KFGYxj?fbclid=IwAR3SissjosPGGFEYt4oiqeV05AKBNt4Dv_u1GPVoAtWmCXtHpgyPkBYHpzcInside Helen's Writer's Box: Bill Bryson’s Life and Times of the Thunderbolt Kid: https://www.amazon.com/Life-Times-Thunderbolt-Kid-Memoir/dp/0767919378Dodie Smith’s I Capture the Castle: https://www.penguin.com.au/books/i-capture-the-castle-9780141371504Helen's recommendations:Glow, Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80114988Fleabag, Amazon Prime: https://www.primevideo.com/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.9aad0127-7ed5-2444-3d8f-61def8eff966?ref_=dvm_pds_gen_AU_kc_s_g|c_231819449454_m_AL7onToE-dc_s__Facebook Group recommendation:Like Minded Bitches Drinking Wine: https://www.facebook.com/groups/LMBDW/

Aspiring writer Kate Fennessy’s trying to write a novel, and New York Times bestselling author Helen Brown’s going to help her.Welcome to our podcast Novel Therapy, the first-time writer’s clinic.When we're not talking about cats, we'll discuss how hot to make a sex scene and if there's really such thing as writer's block.While Kate shares the latest trends in social media, Helen will explain why it's normal for an author to gain 10kg with every book she writes.We'll also chat about why Kate loves men's beards and Helen can't stand them. Who says Gen Ys and Baby Boomers can't get along?It's therapy. And it's novel. It's got to be good for you.Join the discussion on our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1120913041436892/Kate's current (dorky) obsession, Portrait Artist of the Year: https://www.foxtelarts.com.au/shows/portrait-artist-of-the-year/Tara's recommendation, Ugly Delicious on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80170368Watch us on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9V9mYEic-14WZBkoSu6Ajg

Aspiring writer Kate Fennessy’s trying to write a novel, and New York Times bestselling author Helen Brown’s going to help her.Welcome to our podcast Novel Therapy, the first-time writer’s clinic.When we're not talking about cats, we'll discuss how hot to make a sex scene and if there's really such thing as writer's block.While Kate shares the latest trends in social media, Helen will explain why it's normal for an author to gain 10kg with every book she writes.We'll also chat about why Kate loves men's beards and Helen can't stand them. Who says Gen Ys and Baby Boomers can't get along?It's therapy. And it's novel. It's got to be good for you.Show Notes:Helen mentions Twyla Tharp's book, The Creative Habithttps://www.amazon.com/Creative-Habit-Learn-Use-Life/dp/1480589837On Gen Ys having less sex:https://www.mamamia.com.au/having-less-sex-than-parentsSocial Media Days Calendar: https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/social-media-holiday-calendar-2017Join the discussion on our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1120913041436892/Watch us on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9V9mYEic-14WZBkoSu6Ajg

Aspiring writer Kate Fennessy’s trying to write a novel, and New York Times bestselling author Helen Brown’s going to help her.Welcome to our podcast Novel Therapy, the first-time writer’s clinic.When we're not talking about cats, we'll discuss how hot to make a sex scene and if there's really such thing as writer's block.While Kate shares the latest trends in social media, Helen will explain why it's normal for an author to gain 10kg with every book she writes.We'll also chat about why Kate loves men's beards and Helen can't stand them. Who says Gen Ys and Baby Boomers can't get along?It's therapy. And it's novel. It's got to be good for you.Episode 1 Show NotesHelen's recommendation, Desert Island Discs: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qnmrWith Yoko Ono: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007nc7nKate's recommendation, The Lady Vanishes: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-lady-vanishes/id1457296528Helen's social:https://www.facebook.com/Helen.Brown.International.Authorhttps://www.instagram.com/helenbrownauthor/https://www.helenbrown.com.auKate's social:https://www.instagram.com/paperboat_digital/https://www.facebook.com/paperboatdigital/Join our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1120913041436892/Watch us on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9V9mYEic-14WZBkoSu6Ajg

There are differences between Boomers, Gen Xers, Gen Ys and the up-and-coming Gen Zs. But across generations, from the third century BC until now, we find that humanity shares a lot more in common.

1 hr, 20 minutes. A first in a series of episodes when we bring strangers together to interview each other. This episode of Mixing Friends features women of different generations: a Baby Boomer, a Gen Xer and two Gen Ys aka Millennials. 

COWABUNGA DUDES! TUBULAR! OTHER WEIRD 90s WORDS!! That's right, we've gone back into our 80s-90s childhoods to rediscover 1990's TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES - for many Gen Ys and Millennials, it was the franchise that started all franchises. This movie...isn't that great, but it does provide Owen and Stef a chance to be nostalgic about their Saturday morning cartoon routines. Kyle? Let's just say he was never as into the Turtles as he should have been... Enjoy! and follow us on Twitter @TCAPod and Facebook

In Episode 005 the Razor Sharp Show meets Jessica Savic we chat about support for young entrepreneurs who together are building large businesses. Jessica has business in her blood. She is a passionate entrepreneur who leads by example. With The Australian Business Success Group, she aims to help the new generation of business owners achieve their goals.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr Lisa McNeil of Marketing investigates Generation Y. Generation Y is said to be the ‘want it now' generation. A new study of consumption culture takes a closer look at the spending priorities of these young consumers and reveals that the very act of consumption is now integral to most of their social interactions, and fuelled by easy access to debt. But what implication does this have for society as Gen Ys grow older?

Dr Lisa McNeil of Marketing investigates Generation Y. Generation Y is said to be the ‘want it now' generation. A new study of consumption culture takes a closer look at the spending priorities of these young consumers and reveals that the very act of consumption is now integral to most of their social interactions, and fuelled by easy access to debt. But what implication does this have for society as Gen Ys grow older?

Dr Lisa McNeil of Marketing investigates Generation Y. Generation Y is said to be the ‘want it now' generation. A new study of consumption culture takes a closer look at the spending priorities of these young consumers and reveals that the very act of consumption is now integral to most of their social interactions, and fuelled by easy access to debt. But what implication does this have for society as Gen Ys grow older?

Dr Lisa McNeil of Marketing investigates Generation Y. Generation Y is said to be the ‘want it now’ generation. A new study of consumption culture takes a closer look at the spending priorities of these young consumers and reveals that the very act of consumption is now integral to most of their social interactions, and fuelled by easy access to debt. But what implication does this have for society as Gen Ys grow older?