Podcasts about Jans

Episode Summary On this week's Live Like the World is Dying, Margaret and Inmn finish their talk about go bags. They talk about important documents, knives, tools, sleeping systems, shelters, coping with isolation, food, water, firearms, specific situations you might need a go bag for, and of course, DnD. Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Margaret on Go Bags Part II Inmn 00:14 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host Inmn Neruin, and this week we're continuing to talk about go bags. We have the second part of an interview with the founder of this podcast, Margaret Killjoy, where we continue our conversation from last week at literally the exact place that we left off. But first, this podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. Doo doo doo doo doo. [Making noises like a song] So Margaret, we've gone through hygiene kit, survival kit, and... I immediately forgot the third part of it. Margaret 01:39 First aid. Inmn 01:39 First-aid kit. And so that wraps up kind of like an emergency pack? Margaret 01:44 Yep. Inmn 01:44 What what what else goes in a bug out bag. Margaret 01:47 So, now that we get to the bag itself, I would say the next most important thing is a water bottle. Specifically, I like--and I give to all my friends--single wall steel canteen style water bottles. And the reason that I like these is that you can boil water in them. The double wall vacuum sealed canteens, they rule for a lot of purposes, like actually, they're really good for like putting hot soup in your bag. If you're going out hiking for the day and you get to the top of the mountain you get to--as if I've ever climbed a whole ass mountain. By my standards where I live, the mountains are very short. And so when you climb up a whole ass Appalachian mountain, you can have your warm soup up at the top even when it's snowing and shit, you know. But overall, I use 32 ounce steel wall canteens. I like them a lot. And then you're also going to want to make sure that you have food in there, protein bars and other snacks. So that's the core. But then for the bag itself, it's really going to depend on what you're doing. So, I guess I'll go over the not camping stuff first, the kind of like...the stuff that is like...Okay, because there's all the camping shit. And that's really useful depending on your situation. But, things to put in your go bag: your passport. If nothing else, if you don't want your actual main documents in here, you're going to want to put photocopies and digital copies of your stuff in here, which is of course somewhat of a security risk. If someone steals your bag, they get this stuff, right. But for me, the threat model is that my passport is more useful to me in my backpack than it is at home in a safe when I'm 1000 miles away. So, your passport, which I would push anyone who was capable in the United States of making sure that they have an updated passport, especially these days. You want your important documents backed up. This could be some of your medical records. It could be your dog's medical records. It could be your children's medical records. And, you might want the deed to your house. You might want some of the vehicle registration stuff. You want your like stuff--not necessarily the originals in this particular case--but you want the documents of it in case you're like coming back later and need to prove some shit. You know? Because a lot of crises might disrupt a lot of the institutions of bureaucracy. And you would think that in times of crisis, bureaucracy will be like, "I guess we kind of get in the way of human freedom." But no, in times of crisis borders will still be like, "Oh, I don't know about you. You don't have the right document. I don't care that the road you're on is literally on fire." or whatever the fuck you know. Another way to back these up is to literally just to take pictures of them on your phone and have it on your phone. But I think it's actually a good idea to have a USB stick with these documents as well and you might want to consider encrypting that, which I don't know if all computers can do easily but at least my computer can do easily. And you probably want...you might want more of an expanded first-aid kit in this. I guess I gets into the other thing thing. And then the other thing that I think you're gonna want in your go bag is you want fucking entertainment. Like this gets over overlooked so much. But, when when Covid hit, the way that my mental health works I was very isolated, right? I could not put myself at risk to Covid because of my mental health. And so, I lived alone in a cabin without much electricity. And the best purchase I made was something called a Bit Boy, and I highly recommend it. It is this tiny...it looks like a tiny Gameboy and it has all of the Nintendo, Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis, and everything else games like on it. And it uses almost no battery. It's rechargeable. It's a little finicky. If you like turn it off it like fucks it up because it's like a it's like a $30 thing full of pirated shit, right? So it's super finicky. But, I swear that this thing had a better mental health effect on me then like almost anything else during that time. And the other thing that got me through it was I had legally purchased downloads of TV. And so even though I didn't have internet, I once a week, once a day, like sat down and ate my cold soup and watched fucking Steven Universe, and that she got me through it. And so like a USB stick full of like movies, TV, also, specifically, a USB stick full of like survival guides and information about how to build things, fix things, all of that shit. I think it's a super useful thing for a bug out bag. And I leave it up to... Inmn 06:32 It's funny because I feel like this episode is something where we're covering a lot of stuff that--and I just want to start flagging things--we did a whole episode on how you can build a mesh network essentially to have things like libraries of entertainment, or Wikipedia downloads, or like survival bits. So, if you want to learn more about that then go check out that episode. I believe it's called Andre on Solar Punk. Margaret 07:08 Oh, yeah. I forgot we talked about some of the mesh network stuff. That shit's fucking cool. And yeah, so have a library with you. You know, keep a download of Wikipedia on your computer. My computer bag is an example of the kind of bag that theoretically I should be a little bit smarter and kind of keep next to the bug out bag when it's not in use, right? Because I'm going to throw my laptop into my bug out bag if I'm running, right? And so it's like people are like, "Oh, but where's your like giant knife." and like, don't get me wrong, I have a giant knife on my bag. But. I also now have a Nintendo Switch in there, which is an upgrade from the Bit Boy. And like, I am proudest of that of all of the things in my bug out bag. I see that as the most likely for me to use. And I remember before Covid, I remember thinking to myself as I was preparing a library hard drive. And as I was preparing--well I didn't have the Switch yet--but I was like, "Man, what kind of Apocalypse leaves you with free time?" And I'm like, "Oh, Covid." or the next pandemic or fucking hanging out in a refugee center for trans people in Canada or whatever the fuck horrible shit we're gonna have to deal with, you know? Inmn 08:24 Yeah, and just sorry, just to clarify, free time for a lot of people and an incredible amount of not free time for a lot of people. Margaret 08:33 Well, yeah, no, I I think I mean more about isolation. It's not like I like...maybe I'm just being defensive. But it's like at the beginning of the pandemic, my cabin did not sustain life. And so I had to put all of my work into plumbing it, solaring it, you know, washing all my clothes by hand, like doing all this shit, right? But, I think that especially in times of isolation there's like downtime that people don't expect. And I could be wrong, but I suspect that this would be true almost no matter the crisis is that there's like downtime you don't expect where turning your...where not thinking about the crises that are happening is incredibly important. No, it is funny. You're right because I think in my head there's like the beginning of Covid a lot of especially middle class people were like, "Oh, fuck, I'm stuck in my house and bored." Right? Versus a lot of working class people who are like, "Well, now I'm still working in the middle of this nightmare," you know? I think that like...but I would guess that...I dunno, whatever I'll stop being defensive. Inmn 09:41 Yeah, sorry, less of a push back and more just a bringing in this other piece of the piece of the context. But, you know, there were also overworked doctors who were separated from their families. And so, I imagine they also did have probably this weird amount of downtime where It's like, "Well, I'm not at work, but I'm not with my family. What am I doing?" Margaret 10:04 Yeah, and specifically for me, games are a really good anti-anxiety because I definitely hold by the, "Busy bee has no time for sorrow." But then you're like, "Well, it's dark out and I don't have lights in my house. Fuck am I gonna do?" You know? Okay, so that's some of the stuff from a bug out bag point of view. That's the kind of...like;, documents and things like that matter a lot. You're also going to want anything that you need for taking care of other loved ones and or animals that you might have to do. Like, my dog has a smoke mask. He does not like it. If we were in a wildfire situation, he would deal with it. You know? And so there might be like different stuff like...I should probably get a muzzle for my dog. I do not. I do not muzzle my dog on any kind of regular basis. But, I could imagine a situation in which like, everything is so stressful that it would be necessary, right? And you're gonna know better than us what specifically other other stuff you need. But I guess we'll talk about more of the expanded survival stuff that a lot of people are gonna put in their bug out bags, if that makes sense? Inmn 11:20 Yeah, totally. And sorry, just to keep flagging some things. So folks, if you want to learn more about other little pieces of this topic like how to prepare for needing extra medications in a world where like medication systems kind of break down, we do a whole episode on it. I'm blanking on what the episode title is. But I believe it's called "Taking care of your medical needs." Margaret 11:50 That sounds right. Inmn 11:51 And I forget who the guest was. But yeah, I love that we're having this go back conversation now. Because I feel like we can really tie a lot of larger topics that we've talked about before into it, which I'm really loving. Margaret 12:08 Yeah. And then maybe we'll go through, you know, kind of some more of this checklist type stuff and then talk more about the different situations in which one might need to go bag. How does that sound? Inmn 12:18 That sounds great. Margaret 12:19 Okay. So, for the bag itself beyond the emergency kit, you've now added your documents, you've added your water bottle, you've added snacks. And for snacks from my point of view, I recommend snacks that you don't like because otherwise you're going to eat them beforehand. If you're me. [laughs] I used to keep Clif Bars and not Builder Bars as my snacks because I didn't like Clif bars, but I ate so many builder bars as part of my regular life as being an oogle that now I'm kind of sick of them. So now it's like reversed. And Clif Bars are my regular protein bar and Builder Bars are my my snacks I throw in my bag, you know. And, everyone's gonna do this a little differently. And then that stuff is like...most of the stuff in here is...Like I also pick things that don't really expire, but food expires. And also so does that medication, although the medication tends to just lower its efficacy rather than become dangerous. Other things I keep in my bug out bag: a collapsible plastic water canteen. These are useful for a bunch of different things. Like if you just need to hold more water for a while, you might want one of these. I also have moved to a hydration bladder. A lot of people move away from them. I've recently moved towards them. People kind of go back and forth in the hiking world about hydration bladders. As an oogle, I never used them. As a hiker, I really like them because you can hands free or like minimal effort drink as you go, you know. And, you know, more water good except for the weight part of it, you know? And you're also going to want, to keep talking about water, you're going to want to filter in water. And I think that this is true in most circumstances. I think that this is like...you know, some of this like survival stuff is very back woodsy, but a lot of the survival stuff also applies to cities. And it applies to cities where like if you got to boil advisory... like I don't know, anyone who's not had a boil advisory where they live at some point or another, right? You know, every now and then they admit that the water isn't drinkable in your area, and also a lot of like urban survival stuff is like...whatever, I've like slept on a lot of rooftops in my life and shit, you know? Like shelter from the elements is often easier to find in a city but not necessarily a lot of other stuff. So for myself, there's a lot of different water filters. A lot of them are designed for backpacking and those tend to be pretty good. I use a Sawyer water filter. They're these little tiny ceramic water filters and they have a bunch of different attachment sense to them. I used one of these at the beginning of Covid for all of my water because I didn't have a great water source. And, I was just like basically like...I set mine up to a five gallon bucket system where I put water in the five gallon bucket, and then it goes through a hose into the Sawyer filter, and then it gravity drips into a five gallon jerrycan. That's like a stationary kind of thing. For a go bag, you use the same water filter, but it has like one bag of dirty water and one bag of clean water. You can also just rely on chemical filter...not filtration but like purification. Some people like the UV filter chemical things. I've never used one. I don't totally understand them. I mean, I understand the concept, but I don't...I can't attest to them. It seems like most people are picking ceramic water filters. There's also a LifeStraw. And a LifeStraw is a perfectly fine thing to have. I keep one in my hiking day bag. These are these cheap water ceramic filters--like 15 bucks often--and you just drink through it. Usually I go up to the stream and you stick this thing in it and you drink out of the stream. Inmn 16:09 It acts as a filter but also you can't get viruses or stuff? Margaret 16:14 Exactly, it's a ceramic filter that...Yeah, all of these filters are designed to take like mountain stream water and make it potable. Actually, the thing that they're bad at is filtering large stuff like mud. And these can get like clogged up. It's the biggest downside of a ceramic filter. What a lot of people do is they take their bandanna or their...if you're an oogle you use a banana. If you're a military bro, you use the...I forget what they're called. They're the like, giant bananas that...Folk...I can't remember the name of them. Folks in the desert and like, you know, Southwest Asia and stuff tend to use, I think. You use one of those. And then if you're a hiking bro, then you use your...what did I decide they were called? Buffs? Inmn 17:11 Yes. Margaret 17:13 So, you filter all the water through that if you want to keep the ceramic water filter lasting longer. I haven't done as much like hiking filtering, I usually just bring enough water because I don't go on really long hikes. But, I mostly have used the ceramic water filter in a stationary sense. So that's like my personal experience with it. But, that's what I carry. You can also add, if you would like, you can add these more ready-to-eat food besides just like bars and stuff. They make these...it's basically Lembas [like in "Lord of the Rings"] bread. They make these like military rations that are like vacuum sealed and are good for five or ten years. And it's just like oil and flour. And it tastes like nothing. And it's just calories. It's just like a block of calories. And your body can go a fairly long time without food compared to water, right? But like, for peak efficacy--and also to not be a grouchy asshole--you want to at least put calories if not nutrition in your body. A lot of the survival food isn't really focused on nutrition because like it's not the end of the world if you don't get your vitamins for a couple days. Inmn 18:21 Yeah, but obviously everyone has different, you know, body needs or like food requirements. Margaret 18:27 Yeah, totally. Inmn 18:28 And so this is like maybe a good time for folks with diabetes or just any any other kind of predisposition that requires to have more food around. Margaret 18:39 Yeah, and different types of food. And I think it's actually worth having a variety of types of food also for the people around you because I think a lot of this is going to be based on sharing, because greediness in times of crisis, people are like, "Oh, that's when you got to be greedy." And I'm like, "The single most useful tool you can have is another person." Like I can't imagine something I would rather have in a time of crisis than someone else. And so like, yeah, having a variety of types of foods, I think is great from that point of view. No, yeah. And like, yeah, everyone's going to need different things. Okay, so next, fire. In most people's day to day life, fire is not a big component of it. And honestly, most random overnight...like, when I was in oogle, I didn't like fucking stop and make a fire in the woods most nights, you know? And if I did, it was kind of like a celebration type thing, you know? However, from a survival point of view, there's a lot of situations where being able to have a fire is really useful specifically mostly for warmth, also for other like, you know, signaling purposes and for like...you know, if you make a wet fire, it'll smoke more and things like that. And for both boiling water to...another way to, you know, purify your water or whatever. And also for cooking. It's kind of a morale thing for cooking a lot of times. A lot of foods you can just eat them cold and that's especially the kind of stuff you might want to keep in your bag. But for fire, you might want to have additional fire methods, but you've already got a lot of them going on in the rest of your kit. The kind of thing that I always sort of made fun of, but now I understand, is the big fuck-off knife. I mean, you're a knife maker. So you probably think about knives more than the average person. But... Inmn 20:39 It's true and I think I'm curious what you have to say about the big fuck-off knife mostly because I've kind of worked my way back from it, because I used to have a big fuck-off knife all the time. Like when I was an oogle, I was that oogle with the big fuck-off knife. Margaret 20:57 The big fuck-off knife has two purposes. One, is to get people to fuck off. It's not even about drawing it, it's about fucking open carrying it. It's just about being like, "Yeah, I'm in a miniskirt. And I have a like seven inch knife on my waist." Like, people just fuck with you less when you have a big fuck-off knife. And so that's like one of the purposes. But then, bushcraft. I didn't understand why survival knives were big because I was like a big knife...I'm not a knife fighter. I think anyone who is a knife fighter is not thinking about how long they want to live. Like, that's why I mean having a big fuck-off knife is to make people leave you alone, not to like fight them with it. But just to like fucking get people to leave you alone. But the giant knife is really useful for bushcraft. It's really useful for processing wood especially if you don't have a hatchet or something with you. That's what I've like come to understand as to why survival knives are big and how specifically they're bladed on one side with a wide--you're going to know these words better than me--like spine. [Inmn mummers affirmatively] And they have a wide spine so that you can split wood with it. You can take a stick and you can put it on it on the end of the stick and then you can hit it with another stick or a rock. And you can push the knife through the thing. That's [Inmn interrupts] Inmn 22:18 Can I? Margaret 22:19 Yeah. You know more about knives than I do. Inmn 22:21 Yeah, yeah. Just to offer a little bit of re-contextualization. So you know, I'm not a bushcrafter by any means. I wish that I was. I'd be. God, I'd be so much cooler. But I do know knives pretty well and I've been asked to make bushcraft knives before and so you know, I did a bunch of research about bushcraft knives. And what I found was that and then what I found from use is that like the big fuck-off knife is not actually great for bushcrafting. Margaret 22:58 Oh, interesting. Inmn 23:01 Yeah, most Bushcraft knives are like they kind of max out at six inches. And a lot of people err more on the like, you know, four and a half to five and a half range. And what that gives you...because for bushcraft, it's like--you described batoning earlier--if you're batoning your knife through wood to reduce it you don't need a big knife for that. You need a sturdy knife for that. And with a smaller knife, you kind of get a lot more manual dexterity so you can do all of your other tasks. I love knives, I love big fuck off knives. I agree that the purpose of a big fuck-off knife is for people to fuck off. And, you know, I can imagine like survival knives are often longer because you might need them for heavier, larger tasks. But I'm honestly a fan of having a belt axe for that purpose because it's does that thing better. Sorry. That's my that's my segue into knife world Margaret 24:06 No, that makes a lot of sense. And if you ever want to lose a lot of your life--and I feel like you might have also--read people talking about survival knife versus axe versus saw versus machete, about what you're supposed to bring into the woods, you know? Inmn 24:27 Yeah. And what you're gonna learn is that knives...there's no single knife. That's good for everything just like there's no single bag that's good for everything. You need to pick the things that you're comfortable doing. And you need to pick the tasks that you need done. And then find the right tool for it. Margaret 24:48 No, that makes a lot of sense. I will say in terms of saws and knives and all that shit, I have found that the little wire saw is sort of bullshit. Have you seen these? Inmn 25:01 I always wondered. Margaret 25:03 But yeah, I think...and the one...I haven't used that much. I think I tried to use one once. The pocket chainsaw is not bullshit, which is basically a chainsaw blade with two loops on either end, and you loop it around a limb, and then you like, saw back and forth. You know, I think those are not bullshit. Although I think, personally, I'd rather have a folding saw. But they're bigger. So. Inmn 25:30 Yeah, yeah. And that's the key thing here is like if you want to build shelters, use the saw. Don't...You could use your knife for some of it. But yeah. You don't want to build a structure with like hacking 10,000 sticks into something. Get a saw. Margaret 25:51 No, I think you've convinced me. Because I've been like, I've been pondering my--I have a survival knife on my bag--and I've been pondering its actual usefulness versus its weight and stuff, you know? And like, besides the like, I keep it on the outside of my bag and it's a little bit of a like, leave me alone, you know? I think that I have been seeing...Yeah, like, yeah, I think I want to fuck with this more. Redefined my own...Because the knife that I use on a day-to-day basis is my folding pocket knife. You know? It's what I use for almost everything. I'm not going to baton wood with it. Well, I would. It just wouldn't do a very good job of it. Inmn 26:27 Yeah. And, you know, I say this as someone who is always going to have a big knife, probably. And I don't have a purely rational reason for that. But yeah, it makes me feel more comfortable. Margaret 26:45 No, and it's like, and I think it's telling that backpackers don't tend to have large knives. They don't tend to have survival knives at all. Backpackers also tend not to have axes or saws because they're not really...they're focused on getting somewhere and camping, not like building large fires or building structures and things like that. Yeah. And then like, I think more and more, I think fighty type people have been focusing more on smaller knives anyway. Like the karambit is a popular fighting knife or whatever and it's not a big knife. Inmn 27:19 Yeah, yeah. And if you see the...like a lot of the like, original from...I actually don't know where karambits come from. But, where they were developed, they're incredibly small knives. They're like inch and a half long blades. They're incredibly tiny. Margaret 27:36 It's Indonesian. I just looked it up. Yeah. Yeah, no, yeah. It's not a like...Like don't fight a bear. Like a general rule. Don't live your life in such a way where you're fighting bears. And then, if you are then use bear spray. If you're not using bear spray, use a 10mm handgun. Like, you know? Oh, we haven't really talked about firearms. Inmn 28:06 Anyway. Sorry. Derail into knife world over. Margaret 28:09 No, no, I think that...I'm really...It was useful. I learned some. It's probably worth carrying some kind of knife sharpener. If you suck like me, you can use the pull through style--that Inmn is probably going to be disgusted that I use because it destroys the initial original bevel. If you know how to sharpen a knife properly, you can bring a whetstone. It's a little... Inmn 28:31 But, whet stones are heavy. Margaret 28:33 I know. And it's also...or you can also bring a little diamond sharpener stick and stuff like that. Yeah, what would you...Okay, what would you suggest? What would you suggest as your portable knife sharpener? Light and transportable? Inmn 28:45 Yeah, so you know, a knife doesn't do much good if it's not sharp. And most people's knives are not very sharp. I would say that it is a great skill to invest in is learning how to sharpen a knife. There's a lot of stuff... Margaret 29:06 I've tried it so many times. I don't believe in it. I don't think it's real. Anyway, yeah, let's continue. Inmn 29:13 And yeah, like, you know, like what I have at home are these big series of benchtop whetstones. There's a million grits and...but one of the better things that you can have is a strop. Just a leather strop, which is just some like full grain leather. You want it to be fairly thick and use some green polishing compounds that you rub on it and you strop the edge, which helps maintain the edge. And, but as far as pocket sized sharpening devices, the strop doesn't sharpen the knife, the strap like helps redefine the burr on the edge. And there's a million different little pocket sized whetstones. But, the important part is that you want something coarse and you want something fine to like refine the bevel. And so like if I had to build a little to-go kit, I would get a little miniature like 400/1000 combo stone. That is probably not something ceramic because it's heavy. But, they make a bunch of different things. I'm actually less knowledgeable about these pocket things. Yeah, but you want something coarse and you want something fine. 400/1,000 are great grits and then a strop to kind of like polish out the edge with. With that you can't go wrong. Well, you can go wrong... Margaret 30:48 Yeah, I will go wrong. Inmn 30:49 I don't know enough to tell you how to go wrong. Margaret 30:51 No, I will successfully go wrong. I've been trying to sharpen knives my whole life. I will continue to do it. I can kind of do it. I actually use a little all-in-one pocketstone, a little bit larger than the like stick ones, and it's a longish yellow piece of plastic with two sides. And then also has a little fold out part that can be used for filing in the saw parts. And it has kind of a guide, has a little bit of an angle guide built into it, and that's the most useful part for me. So that's the only time I've been able to sharpen knives to where they like can shave. Inmn 31:28 Knife sharpening is is a skill. Don't...That would be my advice is don't think that you're going to...don't rely on learning how to sharpen your knife for the first time when you're in an in an emergency. Practice that now. Margaret 31:40 And I will say as someone who has used all knives for almost everything over the years, it's like, it's all right. I mean, it's not as good. But, I can still cut a cord with a shitty knife, you know? Inmn 31:54 Yeah, well, you know, the old knife making adage, "A dull knife..." or sorry, the old kitchen worker adage, "A dull knife is a dangerous knife." Margaret 32:02 Yeah, so live dangerously. Cut... Cut paper with your knives and never sharpen them. Yes. Okay, let's talk about sleeping systems. Inmn 32:06 Live dangerously? [laughing] Sleeping systems! Thank you for indulging my derailment. Margaret 32:20 It's what we're here for. And some of this we might kind of like...some of the like camping stuff we might not dive as deep into. We're already on episode two of what was going to be one episode. So, I believe in the sleeping bag. And that's leftover from being oogle. I would say that the one thing I would carry in any kind of bag is a sleeping bag. This is not always true. I don't always carry sleeping bag. But, it's like almost a comfort item. It's a like no matter what I'm warm kind of item. I believe in sleeping bags with a good stuff sack. I personally don't use down. Backpackers tend to use down. It's lighter. It compacts more for the same warmth. However, it doesn't insulate once it gets wet. And that is a big deal from my point of view, from a survival point of view. When everything is fine, I prefer a non down one. They're also cheaper. And that might be why I have that preference. And also, I don't know anything about how the birds who produce down are treated. So, sleeping bag super important. A lot of backpackers have now moved to backpacking quilts. And then a lot of old timers will actually just use like wool blankets and stuff like that. I love a sleeping bag. You're gonna want to get off the ground. However, that said, in an urban environment you can use cardboard. You just need to layer it a lot. And it's not as good as a sleeping pad. But it is still useful. And you're going to need a sleeping pad that is appropriate to weather and desired comfort. If you want to hear me learn more about sleeping bags and tents you can listen to me talk to Petra a year and a half ago. I don't remember the name of the episode besides Petra being the guest. And that's where I learned that the combo move of an air mattress and a foam pad is is often really good. For shelter, the sort of three choices kind of is a tent, a bivy, or a tarp. This is not necessarily in a lot of bug out situations. It is necessary in my bug out situation and it might be in yours. And the advantage of a tarp is that it is like only one object. It is light. It is kind of easier to hide in a lot of ways. And I actually, when I'm sleeping in dangerous situations--like a lot of oogle life is like trespassing--I don't like tents because tents, you can't see out of them. Like it's like a little bubble. It's why people do like tents is that they want to be in their little bubble and I totally get that. And I'll probably be a tent person moving on because it's like comfortable, and safe, and stuff. But when I was younger and everything was well, not easier, my life was fairly hard. But like whatever. It was easier for me to not bother with a tent so I used a tarp. And then the other option is the bivy. And a bivy is like a...It's like a waterproof sleeping bag. And there's like ones...like I have one that has like one pole, just to keep the head of it off your face, you know. And these compact really small. This is what a lot of people who are rucking, who are doing military shit, tend to prefer are bivys. They're not popular among backpackers. The kind of closest equivalent is hammocks. A lot of people also use, but that involves there being good trees in the right place. However, hammocks can be light, and good, and stuff, too. And these are all gonna be preferences. And the reason I no longer fuck with bivys is I have a dog. And he's coming with me. And so I'm now probably a tent camper. Because if I'm sleeping outside, I'm just leashing my dog to a tree. But, I don't want him to get rained on. I want him warm. So I'm probably going to be a tent camper from now on. And then some tents now, a lot of backpackers are moving to these tents where you use your hiking poles to keep them up and then they're super lightweight and they're actually kind of cool. And they're a little bit...like some of them are like almost halfway between a tarp and a tent. And... Inmn 36:06 I love as like camping technology evolves it just like...I feel like it gets more old timey and more oogley but with you know, fancy stuff. Margaret 36:17 The $700 oogle tent. Yeah. Some of these tents are like fucking $600-700 and made out of like, space material or whatever. Yeah. What's your favorite shelter for camping? Inmn 36:32 So this is funny. I once bike toured across the entire country. From the west coast to Chicago, I built a tarp tent every night. Margaret 36:47 Like an a-frame? Inmn 36:50 Yeah, I built like a little tarp tent every night, which I had to get really creative in the West. As you know, there's not a lot of trees everywhere it turns out. And then when I got to Chicago, I went out and bought the Big Agnes ultralight backpacking tent, which is like sort of halfway between....Yeah, it's halfway. It's like...It's not a bivy, but it doesn't have a much larger footprint than a bivy. And it was the best thing that I've ever spent money on. I'm embarrassed to say that I spent money on it. Margaret 37:28 Whatever. Whatever. Inmn 37:29 But, I did. Margaret 37:30 I'm revoking your oogle card. You didn't scam it from REI dumpsters? I can't believe you. Yeah, yeah. Fuck yeah. Inmn 37:41 All right. Yeah, but I love that thing. But, I would love to move to a bivy. Yeah. Margaret 37:45 Yeah, I think that..Yeah, honestly, like, I've only...I haven't slept a ton in my bivy. But I was like, "Oh, this works." The other downside of a bivy is that your bag doesn't fit in the tent with you. And so if you sleeping in a bivy in the rain, you're going to need to work on waterproofing your bag. But that is something that like as a backpacker, you're probably trying to do anyway. The main ways that people do it is 1) a pack cover that goes on the outside. And then 2) people often either put things in dry bags, or just like fucking contractor bags, like trash bags, inside their bag and let the bag itself get wet. And if you're, if you're bivy camping, you're accepting that your bag is getting rained on and you just need to work around that. Which, is I think part of why it's the tactical person's choice or whatever. Because you're like, "Comfort doesn't matter. Surviving to get where I need to go shoot somebody is what matters." or whatever, you know. Or not get shot or whatever. Which actually, you're going to have to take into mind when you when you choose what kind of color for all of these things you want. I personally would lean towards the camo type stuff for my...I live in a red state. I could imagine having to leave. Inmn 38:49 Yeah. Margaret 38:50 I'm gonna like I'm gonna like speed run the rest of the camping stuff. You might want a poncho or a raincoat. Some people like ponchos because you can also turn them into shelters or whatever, but I think sometimes it's a little bit just fucking carry what you like. You want additional socks in your go bag no matter what, no matter what you're...Even if it's not a camping go bag, put some fucking socks in there and some other...change of underwear and possibly like better soap, like camp soap, like more hygiene type stuff. My go bag has a fucking battery powered Waterpik so that I can floss with water at night because I have spent a lot of money on my teeth. They are not in great shape and water picks rule. I also have a portable battery powered electric toothbrush that I fucking love. You might want an emergency radio. If you're like good at radio shit, you might want a Baofeng. It's like an all channel and it can send as well as receive. It's called a transceiver. It's really easy to accidentally break the law with a Baofeng because you're not allowed to actually use any sending signals on it most of the time. But they're very useful crisis if you know what you're doing. On the other hand, I would just say get one of those like, your little battery powered weather AM/FM radio. Have and put it in there. At home, I keep one of those like hand crank solar panel everything survival radios or whatever. But they're like a little bit bulky and a little bit cheap. And so, I like don't quite trust it in my bag, but I keep one at home. But, other people feel differently. I like having a monocular or binoculars in a go bag. I like this because looking at shit is cool. And sometimes also, I could imagine there are situations where I would want to look at and see what's ahead and not go there. If I had money, if I was a money person, I would have at least a thermal monocular if not full on like night vision shit. But that's money. You want the rain cover, the dry bag, you want to beef up your first-aid kit a little bit. You probably want an ace bandage at the very least. There's some other stuff like moleskin and other things for like long distance walking that you might want. I've heard good things about leukotape--and I haven't used it yet--but as like...people use it as a replacement for moleskin for covering blisters and shit. You might want cooking stuff, which I'm just not gonna get into cooking stuff here. And you might not. You can also like cold soak your food and just like put it in like a peanut butter jar with water and fucking have it turned into food. Whatever. You might want hiking poles. You might want a solar charger. You might want, as we've talked about, a folding saw, a hatchet or machete. You might want more light. Like some people like the collapsible LED solar lanterns. They're not like a great bang for your buck in terms of like, I mean, they're actually really light and shit, but like, you know, you can use a headlamp just fine. But, like sometimes if you've got like a family and shit, it's like nice to have like a little bit of ambiance and niceness or whatever. Especially like maybe if you're in like a building right when the power's out, you know, like that's the kind of thing that like is a little bit more likely and is useful. You probably want a plastic trowel of some type for pooping outside or a little aluminum trowel for digging a hole so you can poop into it. And alright, guns really quickly, and then...My recommendation is only carry firearms if you train in them. Unlike everything else. Carrying something you don't know how to use is fine if you know you don't know how to use it and you get someone else to use it, like your first-aid kit. Like, my IFAK for gunshot wounds, If I'm shot in the belly, it's for someone else to use on me if at all possible. You know. I am trained in how to use it, but so guns are the exception to this. Do not carry a gun unless you can keep it secure at all times and you pay a lot of attention to the ethics and also the legality around firearms. Those have been covered a lot more in other places on this show. Specifically, my current recommendation that I'm a little bit this is like do what...Whatever, I haven't yet mastered this. The handgun that I keep near my bed in a safe, in a quick access safe, would go into my bug out bag in a moment of crisis or be on my person. And then in the bug out bag is additional magazines with 9mm ammunition. 9mm is by far the most common ammunition besides like .22LR, which is a survival round meant for hunting small animals. But, for a self defense point of view, I believe a handgun 9mm. And if you are the type who wants long guns, if your whole thing is you're gonna be surviving in the woods or whatever, you might want to consider some type of backpacking .22. They make, I think it's the AR-7 is one type of survival collapsible .22. And then the other one is a 10/22 with a backpacker's stock that folds. What I personally plan on carrying if it was a get out past the militia checkpoint the US government has fallen scenario or whatever is a folding 9mm carbine, which is a rifle that shoots nine millimeter rounds. A lot of people don't like these from a tactical point of view. It's not nearly as effective at long range stuff as say an AR-15 or other rifles that are meant to shoot larger rounds, right, or not larger but more powerful rounds. But, the ability to use the exact same magazines that I already use for my other gun and the exact same ammunition makes it worth it for me for specifically a bug out bag scenario. I don't have enough money to do this yet. That is why I don't have that. My only bug out bag gun is my handgun that is also my home defense gun. And now everyone knows what I have at home. Anyway, that's my firearms. Inmn 44:30 They know one thing that you have at home. Margaret 44:32 Yeah, totally. Or do they!? They think I have a 9mm but really I have a 10mm. Whatever. Oh, and then the other thing. Randomly. Okay, if your other threat model, if you're in like fucking Alaska or some shit, you might want a 10mm, but you already know this if you live in Alaska. 10mm is a round that's better at shooting really big animals. It doesn't really have any like particular advantage against people in it and shit, right, but like against grizzly bears and shit. One, bear spray more effective. There's a bunch of studies, bear spray is more effective at stopping a charging bear than any gun that exists. Whatever, I mean maybe like a bazooka or some shit, I don't know whatever. Oh, poor bear. And then also, you don't kill the bear. It's just trying to fucking scare you and live its life. Yeah, yeah, that's my bug out bag. Do you feel ready? And or do you wanna talk about, really quickly, like some some scenarios? Inmn 45:35 Yeah, I feel a lot more informed. I feel overwhelmed, Margaret 45:40 I should address the overwhelm. And I should have led with this. I'm so sorry everyone. You don't need all this stuff. This is the "I'm building a bug out bag. And I have all the time." You slowly build the bug out bag. You slowly get prepared. There's no one who's entirely prepared for all things. And the purpose of a bug out bag from my point of view is to ease your mind. When I first made my bug out bag and my cabin in the woods, I was able to say to myself, "If there's a fire in this forest, I know what I will do. And now that I know what I will do, I am not going to worry about a fire in this forest anymore." And so the first little bit that you get is the most useful. You get diminishing returns as you spend more money and more size and things like that. Massively diminishing returns. The everyday carry, your cell phone is the single most important object. You know, the pocket knife, the pepper spray, the the basic shit is the most important. If you have purse snacks and a water bottle, you are more prepared than almost anyone else. Yeah, I should have led with that. Inmn 46:57 Yeah. Oh, no, no, it's okay. I feel like, you know. We eased into it then it got real complicated. And I'm, grateful to think about the overwhelm afterwards. But, Margaret, so in thinking about a lot of these things, there's like...I'm like, okay, like, if I'm in real life DnD or if the literal apocalypse happens then I could see needing these things. But why else might one need a bug out bag? What is some threat modeling kind of stuff to think of? Margaret 47:42 Yeah, I mean, like, again, it's gonna depend on where you are. If I were to pick where I'm at, I can imagine gas supplies running out, right? I don't think...or like getting interrupted in such a way that, you know, suddenly, there's a lot of limitation to the amount of fuel that you can have, right? I could imagine grocery store stuff. I could imagine like, you know, supply chain disruptions. We're seeing supply chain disruptions. People might have to leave because of earthquakes. People might have to leave because of fires. Like, natural disasters is like probably the number one thing, right? And where you live, you will know what the natural disasters are. Where you live, personally, I would worry about drought. And I would worry about water war. But, and I would focus my prepping around rain barrels and you know, keeping five gallons of water in my truck or whatever. I didn't even get into the shit you should put your vehicle. Some other time will the vehicle preparedness. And but yeah, I mean, like there's scenarios where like...it was completely possible that January 6th type stuff could have happened on a much larger level, right? They tried to have it happen on a much larger level. We could have had a fascist coup in the United States, because they tried. And in that scenario, you might need to leave the country or you might need to move to a safer part of the country. Or you might need to move to a place so that you can prepare to defend. God, defend the country. But like, fight fascism, even if that means being like, "Alright, it's us and the Democrats versus fascism," or whatever, you know? Like, I can't imagine like the partisans in Italy were like, "Oh, no, you're a bourgeois capitalist. I'm not going to fight the Nazis with you." You know? Like, I mean, actually, that probably did happen. Inmn 49:46 Yeah, or how there's...there have been tons of anarchists who are fighting in Ukraine. Margaret 49:52 That is a...Yeah. Yeah, totally. And like if we were suddenly invaded by Russia, there would be like us and some patriots next to each other fighting on the same side, and it would be real awkward. Right? Real awkward, but like, you know. Okay. And so I think that it was entirely possible, at that moment, that my threat model included, "What if I need to get out of the south?" you know? And if I need to get out of the south, yeah, I'm driving until I hit the points where I start thinking that there's gonna be militia checkpoints. And then I'm in the woods, you know? Yeah. And like, so. It's not nearly as likely as other things. But, most bug out scenarios, yeah, are like, "I need to go spend a weekend somewhere." It could even literally be like, a go bag is like, if I got the call that my dad was in the hospital and I just need to get in my fucking truck and go see my dad, right? Like, nothing else bad is happening in the world. It's still real nice to have the bag that I am grabbing and walking out the door. You know? Yeah. Yeah. What are some of the scenarios that you imagine that you would worry about? Inmn 50:01 There's kind of, there's kind of a lot. I mean, there's, you know, there's a lot of scenarios, and I'm wondering if this is the potential for like, future episodes is like...You know, where I live, I do think about drought, I think a lot increasingly more about militia checkpoints, because I live in a--I mean, I feel like everyone lives in a place where there could suddenly be an active militia--but I think about those things. This is a whole episode that we should do. But, I think about friends who live in places where it floods, I think about friends who live in places where there's hurricanes. Margaret 52:01 And a go back is also getting to go...If you need to go help someone who's in a tight place of crisis, you know, like having your truck--don't drive your truck into standing water ff you don't know how deep it is-- but like, if you needed to get into a disaster zone to help people, if you're more prepared, you're more able to do that. Inmn 52:22 Yeah. Oh, and actually, could I suggest an addition to to go bags? Just as a thing. Yeah, I would love to heavily urge people to have in their go bags or to have this as a separate bag in your emergency kit is, you know, something that we're learning a lot from harm reduction communities and organizing right now is harm reduction supplies. Yeah, Naloxone or Narcan, fentanyl testing strips, drug testing stuff in general. And, you know, even if you don't use drugs, then I would suggest having stuff in case other people who do use drugs and need them to some extent or have complicated dependency around them, having that kind of stuff for someone else could be life saving to someone else. Margaret 52:29 Of course. No, everything I said is the only stuff you can use. Inmn 52:41 That is a really good point. Alright. Well, that's some stuff. Is there anything else we should talk about go bags. It's cool to have a go. That's what I'm gonna say. Don't let the right wing have it. It's fucking cool. Being prepared rules. People are gonna think you're cool. They used to make fun of you, but now...now they don't. I have two kind of silly questions, because I love rooting these discussions in humor and light heartedness. There's another word for it. Margaret 54:14 I famously hate joy. Inmn 54:16 Yeah. Okay, so we've just gone through this big list of stuff and do you remember Donny Don't from Crimethinc? Yeah, what is the Donny Don't of go bags? Margaret 54:33 Donny Don't is a, just so people know, it's the don't do with Donny Don't does. And what is the Donny Don't of go bags? It's probably the like crazy overkill versions. Like I probably don't need an ice axe in my go bag. Now that I say that I'm like, I mean, if I had to cross into Canada on the East Coast I would actually need an ice axe. So, but like, gear obsession, I think that and letting go bags be an endless bottomless non fun thing. If it is fun for you to geek out and find the the version of the thing that's two ounces lighter, do it--as long as you give away the old one or like, you know, maintain it in such a way that it's useful to somebody else. But yeah, I think that Donny Don't is the overkill, like a bag that you can't carry. Unless, I mean, some people can't carry certain amounts of weight that they would need and then they need assistance and things like that. That's actually okay too. But like, but overall. Yeah. Inmn 55:42 Cool. Yeah. And actually, that is my retrospective answer for which knife to bring is the knife that you will carry. Margaret 55:49 Yeah. Inmn 55:49 Is the knife that does not that does not impede you from caring it. And then my other comical question because I can't do a single interview without talking about it is: So in Dungeons and Dragons, you have the adventuring kit and what is the 50 foot of hempen rope, which every single adventurer uses at some point, and what is the like climbing like...not crampons. Pitons. What is the pitons thing that no one has ever used. If you use them, please tell us about it. Margaret 56:32 Everyone uses the the eating stuff. The spork, the utensils. Everyone uses...Yeah, the stuff that everyone uses is the tiny light cheap shit. You know? It's the fucking BIC lighter. And know what what no one uses is the magnifying lens to start the fire, which I didn't even include. I actually include tiny little magnifying lenses in the kits because they cost like five cents, like little Fresnel lenses size of credit card. But, it's mostly so you can read small stuff. And that weighs nothing. I like throwing it in. But the magnifying lens. That's the Yeah. Inmn 57:21 The piton thing. Margaret 57:25 Yeah. Whatever it is. Inmn 57:29 Cool. Thank you. Thank you for indulging my silly questions. Well, it seems like maybe we should do some more...Talk about this more some other time. Margaret 57:41 Yeah, you should ask me about vehicle preparedness sometime. And home preparedness. Inmn 57:46 Yeah, vehicle preparedness, home preparedness, like specific disaster preparedness. Yeah. Like, I know, we're gonna...we're planning on doing a hurricane thing at some point. Margaret 57:58 We're just gonna throw a hurricane. Inmn's a level 17 Wizard. Inmn 58:07 And, you know, maybe we like...do we eventually started talking about...Do we just throw you, Margaret, into situations and say, "How would you deal with this issue?" Like as an episode concept? Margaret 58:22 I thought you meant physically. Like, while I'm on tour, be like, "Sorry, Margaret, you're suddenly survivor lady." And I'm like, "Wait!" Inmn 58:32 No, no, I'm thinking of like, this funny episode concept where we come up with situations, almost like roleplay situations, but real life, and you tell us how you would prepare and deal it. Margaret 58:46 Okay. Yeah, we should do that sometime. I guess I'll have to get good at this. Usually, because I'm like...Well, my whole thing is I'm not quite an expert. At this point. I think I do know more than the average person. But my whole point was like, I'm not an expert. I find experts and ask them things. But, I guess at this point, there's a lot of this shit that I either sometimes have hands on experience and sometimes I just fucking talk to people about it all day. So. Yeah, sounds good. Well, Inmn 59:12 Well. Thanks so much for coming on this, what ended up being a two parter episode of your own podcast that I am a weird guest host of right now. Margaret 59:24 No, it's our podcast. It's Strangers' podcast at this point. Inmn 59:29 Yeah. Do you have anything that you would like to plug? Margaret 59:34 You can hear me on my podcast, Live Like the World is Dying, it's a community and individual preparedness podcasts published by Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. You can also hear me talk about history. I spend most of my time reading history books and talking about it on a podcast called Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff on Cool Zone Media. It's very confusing that one of my podcasts is on CZN and one of my podcasts is on CZM, but that's the way it goes. And my most recent book is called "Escape from Incel Island." You can hear me talk about a shotgun that I used to really want, the Celtic KSG which is what Mankiller Jones carries. It's no longer that shotgun I lust after. Now I want to Mossberg 59A1. But, you know, I don't know whether I want to change what they're carrying. And I'm on the internet. @MagpieKilljoy on Twitter and @Margaretkilljoy on Instagram and you can also follow...I'm now trying to make people follow our social media, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. You can also follow us on social media @TangledWild on Twitter and then at something on Instagram. I'm sure if you search Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness it will come up. Do you know what it was? What is our Instagram? Inmn 1:00:48 It is @tangled_wilderness on Instagram. Margaret 1:00:51 We did a really good job of grabbing all the...we've been around for 20 years and we didn't fucking grab good Instagram handles at the beginning. Yeah, that's what I got. Inmn 1:01:00 Great. Great. Well, we will see you next time. Margaret 1:01:04 Yeah. Inmn 1:01:11 Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please go make a go bag and then tell us about it. But also tell people about the podcast. You can support this podcast by telling people about it. You can support this podcast by talking about it on social media, rating, and reviewing, or doing whatever the strange nameless algorithm calls for. Feed it like a hungry god. And, you can support us on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Our Patreon helps pay for things like transcriptions, our lovely audio editor, Bursts, as well as going to support our publisher Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. Strangers and in a Tangled Wilderness is the publisher of this podcast and a few other podcasts including my other podcast, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, which comes out monthly and is usually our monthly feature of anarchist literature or something. We also put out the Anarcho Geek Power Hour, which is the podcast for people who love movies and hate cops. And we would like to make a special series of shout outs to some of our patrons in particular. Thank you Anonymous, Funder, Jans, Oxalis, Janice and O'dell, Paige, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, Theo, Hunter, Shawn, SJ, Paige, Mikki, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Kat J., Staro, Jenipher, Eleanor, Kirk, Sam, Chris, Michaiah, and Hoss the dog. I love that this list just keeps getting longer and longer and longer. And seriously, we could not do any of this without y'all. So thank you. I hope everyone does as well as they can with everything that's happening and we'll talk to you soon. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Following a first season in Starkville that exceeded every one's expectations, Mississippi State head basketball coach Chris Jans has received a new contract and raise that has him as the highest paid employee on campus. Brian Hadad and Robbie Faulk discuss why this was the right move and how Jans is set for success this upcoming season and beyond. Brian Hadad of SportsTalk Mississippi and Robbie Faulk of 24/7 give you the best insight into Mississippi State athletics. We cover the Bulldogs like no one else. This show is a production of SuperTalk Mississippi Media. Learn more at SuperTalk.FM Brought to you by... Strange Brew Coffeehouse - https://strangebrewcoffeehouse.myshopify.com/ College Corner - https://collegecornerstore.com/ Restaurant Tyler - https://www.eatlocalstarkville.com/restaurant-tyler Mississippi Beef Council - https://www.msbeef.org/ Two Brothers - https://www.twobrotherssmokedmeats.com/ Advantage Business Systems - https://www.absms.com/ The Rogue - https://www.therogue.com/ PriorityOne Bank - https://priorityonebank.com/ Dolce Gelato Treats - https://www.facebook.com/dolcestarkville/

Episode Summary Carrot and Margaret talk about all things hiking, including thru-hiking and ultralight hiking. They talk about how to choose the right gear for the right purposes and how to minimize the impacts of long distance hiking on your body. They go through the complications of bringing dogs on long hikes and how to stay safer around grizzly bears. They also spend a good deal of time critiquing The Last of Us while developing a theory on how to hybridize many hiking strategies to develop the ultimate form of apocalypse travel. Guest Info Carrot Quinn (she/they) is an author, thru-hiker and hiking coach. She is the author of Thru-Hiking Will Break Your Heart and The Sunset Route. Carrot has a new speculative fiction novel coming out later this year, hopefully. Carrot is also an avid blogger and you can find them at www.carrotquinn.com or on Instagram @carrotquinn and Twitter @CarrotQuinn Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Carrot on Hiking Margaret 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host, Margaret Killjoy. And this week we are talking about walking and how to do it, the legs, the one in front of the other, etc. And in order to do so, we're going to be talking to an expert walker, or hiker, I suppose might be a better way of phrasing it, Carrot Quinn. And so we're going to be talking to her about all this stuff. Carrot writes a bunch of books about hiking and does a bunch of hiking. And so I'm really excited, because this has been on my mind a lot. But first, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. Margaret 01:55 Okay, we're back. So Carrot, if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns. And then I guess kind of like your background in hiking, thru-hiking, that kind of stuff. Carrot 02:07 My name is Carrot Quinn, and my pronouns are she or they and I got into long distance hiking in 2013. And long distance hiking is different from other kinds of backpacking, because you're just out for longer, I guess. And usually also, you're on trails that have a really specific weather window, which means that you need to hike more miles per day than you would on a more leisurely backpacking trip in order to finish in a certain weather window, or because the water sources are farther apart. So, you need to hike a certain mile per a day to get to the water sources, which means that you end up using different gear, because when you're out for that long and hiking that many miles, it's a lot more strain on your joints. And so, in order to be able to do it, you need to have lighter gear that puts less strain on your joints, or else you get overuse injuries. And you also wear different shoes. So, there's this whole different kind of way of walking in the wilderness, which I got into because I'd always backpacked with a heavy backpack, and I was always in pain. And then I discovered this style, and I wasn't in pain anymore. And I was like, "Oh my God, if I do this, I can just like live outside and sleep on the ground every night and I won't be in pain." So than I got really into it. And I hiked the PCT in 2013. Margaret 03:19 What's the PCT? Carrot 03:19 The Pacific Crest Trail, which is 2,650 or 60 miles depending on how you count. It takes five months to hike. I got really obsessed with it for a while. So, I've hiked 11,000 miles. I've hiked from Mexico to Canada three times. And I've also walked across Utah, and Arizona, and done a bunch of other shorter hikes. And I've hiked finished trails where there's like a path on the ground that you walk, like the Pacific Crest Trail, and I've hiked trails where there's not a path on the ground, and you're just navigating through canyons and washes and stuff. And then I've also made my own routes, which is where you look at the maps and figure out where you can walk and then you follow the path that you created. Margaret 03:20 I was gonna say that's wild, but I guess that's literally the point. That it's wild. Okay, and then you've written about this too, right? Carrot 04:13 Yeah, so I have a writing career more or less, most years I make my living as a writer. And I was able to build that by writing about long distance hiking, because it's a pretty popular niche. I've been writing my whole life. I always wanted to be a writer, and in my 20s I wrote zines and then I started blogging in 2008. And then I started long distance hiking in 2013. And so every one of these hikes I've ever done, all 11,000 miles I've hiked, I've written a blog post every single day. And so that's how I built my writing career because then people started reading those and people love reading about long distance hiking, you know, because it's hard to get time off work. It's hard to get the gear. It's hard to access, and so people being able to read that from the comfort of their home is like really nice. And so then I wrote a book about my first long distance hike, which is called "Thru-Hiking Will Break Your Heart." And that book is great, because I made so many bad choices. So, it's like a very good story. Because you know, the best stories come from when you're like completely brand new at something. Margaret 05:21 Yeah. Carrot 05:21 And everything goes like horribly awry. Those are like the best stories. So, I wrote that book. And then my second book was actually a memoir about growing up in Alaska and my years riding freight trains. And that came out in 2021. Margaret 05:37 What's that one called? Carrot 05:43 And it's kind of sad. It's not like the happiest, but whatever. But then, I just finished a speculative fiction novel about this young person that is fleeing this destabilizing city and riding her bike across the country trying to get to Nevada. So, I'm editing that right now. Margaret 05:57 Oh my god, is that out yet? Can I read it? Carrot 05:59 No. Margaret 05:59 Fuck. Carrot 05:59 I hope it'll come out someday. I don't know what the title is, either, but, I'm editing it right now. And, if I self publish, hopefully I can get it out by the end of the year. And I'm leaning towards self publishing. So, we'll see. Hopefully, it'll be out sooner rather than later. Margaret 06:16 Okay. Well, let's talk about that off camera. I think a lot about publishing speculative fiction, and I do it sometimes. Carrot 06:26 Yeah, you write speculative fiction too. Margaret 06:28 Yeah. Carrot 06:29 We could just talk about that for hours and hours. Margaret 06:33 I mean, I also like talking about that. Can I out us to the audience about how we know each? Is that...you seem pretty public about that. Carrot 06:41 Yeah, totally. Margaret 06:41 Yeah, I first met Carrot--actually, I don't remember if it's where we first met--but, we lived together in a squat in the South Bronx in 2004. And so, I've been following Carrot's career from afar since then being like, "Oh, shit, fuck yeah, another crust punk who became a writer." Carrot 07:00 And I've also been following Margaret's career and like hearing little updates about her life over the years and being like, "Oh, that's where Margaret is, that's what Margaret's doing. Oh, it's super cool." Margaret 07:10 Yeah. Yeah. I'm really excited to have you on to talk about this. And, I admit one of the reasons I'm really excited to have you on about this--because there's a couple reasons--one is because this topic is really interesting to me and has been for a while, you know, during say, the last presidential election when there was a decent chance of a fascist coup, and there was, you know, an attempt at one, myself and a lot of other people probably had to sit there and think, "What would be involved if I had to go on foot a long way to get away from here?" Right? And I think that that kind of thing is probably on a lot of people's minds, especially on a state by state basis right now, as a lot of states become increasingly unwelcoming and things. And of course, at the moment, people are allowed to leave states by cars and stuff, but whatever, we'll get to that. But, the other reason I'm interested in is because I've recently gotten more into hiking, and I've been obsessively watching YouTube videos of thru-hikers, and mostly these people really annoy me, but the stuff is really interesting. And, your name gets mentioned a lot in the sort of pantheon of thru-hiking writers as the person that everyone's like, "Well, I'm no Carrot Quinn," or whatever. So, I just think that's really cool. That's probably why I'm excited to talk to you. So, what is involved--and this is a very broad question, but what is involved in deciding that you want to go on a very long hike? Carrot 08:42 What is involved? Well, so, I really love this intersection of topics that we're talking about because those are the two things that occupy my brain all the time is overland travel by foot, and near future societal collapse. So yeah. Margaret 08:58 Yeah, you're writing a book about that. Carrot 08:59 Yeah. And, in the novel I just wrote, she starts out on her bike, but the bike breaks, and then she's just on foot. And, one thing I love while thinking about this stuff is like--for example, have you seen The Last of Us? Margaret 09:12 Yeah. Carrot 09:13 So they're on a long overland journey, a lot of it is on foot. And there are all these plot holes in my opinion because there are things about the way they're traveling on foot that just aren't realistic. Like their footwear is uncomfortable. They never drink water. None of their gear is waterproof. They're not properly dressed for the weather. So, I think that's really.... Margaret 09:29 Yeah, they have these tiny packs, but not not in an ultralight way. Carrot 09:33 They're tiny backpacks. They're just these bottomless pits of whatever they need. Somehow they have batteries, which like, you wouldn't have batteries. So, something I'm also really fascinated about, like thinking about near future collapse, is how we're going to be living in this hybrid time where we'll have all these materials available to us that are from this society where things are mass produced, but we'll be in a society where things are no longer are going to be mass produced. So, we'll be sort of like transitioning over the course of decades, from having access to certain materials to not having access to any of those materials. And that's like really interesting to me. And The Last of Us is set 20 years after collapse, so a lot of the stuff they have access in the show I don't think they would have anymore. Margaret 10:19 They a little bit talk about it where like, "Oh, the gasoline isn't quite as good. We have to stop all the time to siphon," but then they're just kind of like, "And then we just drive," you know? Carrot 10:28 Yeah, but like the batteries, you know, for their flashlights, they just...But yes, that's really interesting to me, thinking about for example, like a long journey. Like right now, the only reason I can long distance hike is because I have all this really high tech gear because you know, 30 years ago, to do a trail, like the Pacific Crest Trail, all of the gear was super heavy. So, you had to be sort of this like elite athlete in a way. Like just anybody couldn't do it because everything was so heavy, it was really hard on your body, like it was brutal. And now, because of this like really high tech gear we have, our packs are much lighter, and we just wear trail runners, and so it's much more accessible. And so, that's the only reason I can do it physically. And the only reason I enjoy it. Like, I wouldn't enjoy it otherwise. And so, it's interesting to think about, like, you know, in the future what people would use. But, to answer your question, if you wanted to do like, you know, where we are precollapse, if you wanted to go on a long hike--you know, the thing is that one of the things that's hardest for people is getting the time off. I like trails that are more than a month long, because walking long distances is our special secret human superpower. Like, no other animal can walk long distances the way we can. Like, people think that that's how we evolved from apes is we started like walking our prey to death, because a lot of animals… Margaret 11:50 Yeah, persistence hunters! Carrot 11:49 Yeah, a lot of animals sprint and then they sleep and they sprint and they sleep. But, we can just like zombie forward like endlessly, like just fucking zombie until our prey just like collapses with exhaustion. It takes--but a lot of us like the way we live, we don't spend a lot of time walking every day. And so, it takes time to sort of unlock that ability and get our tendons--that's like the biggest thing--like, our joints used to it. And so, if you were going to do a trail, like the PCT for example, that's like a five month trail, you would start out really slow, like say doing like 15 miles a day. You know, you would train beforehand so that you could do 15 miles a day. And then you would start doing that. And then, if you started feeling any pain in your joints, you would take days off, or pull way back. And then after about a month your joints get used to it, and that like superpower is unlocked. I've seen this happen so many times, because so many people the PCT is their first trail and they start right off the couch and they're not athletes--you don't have to be an athlete, like I'm not an athlete, I'm just a regular person--and as long as you don't get injured, or have some sort of illness you can unlock this superpower. And then, it's like, it doesn't hurt anymore. And you can just walk, and walk, and walk and it's really cool. So, that's why I recommend doing a trail that's more than a month, because it takes a month for the pain to go away and to feel like you've unlocked that superpower that I think all humans have, you know, barring injury or illness. And so, if you hike like a five month trail or three months trail then you have a month of discomfort, but then you have several months where you get to exist in this really cool body. But, it's hard to get the time off. So, a lot of people who long distance hike work seasonally or they'll you know, do the kind of work where you can--like in tech or as an engineer, as a nurse or whatever--where you can work for a period of time, like a couple of years and then quit, and then go back to work. The biggest demographics on a long trail are people just out of college and retired people, because those are the two people who have the easiest time finding that chunk of time. Margaret 12:30 That makes a lot of sense to me. I've always kind of wanted to do this, and it's never quite been a high enough priority. And this brings me to not the most important question, but my main question about it. I know that you can't thru-hike any of the existing like triple crown, meaning Pacific Coast Trail, Appalachian Trail, and whatever the third one is...Continental Divide Trail? What's the third one? Carrot 14:12 Yeah, yeah. Margaret 14:13 I know you can't bring a dog with you on those three because they go through National parks. But what do you do about dogs? I mean, like because in my mind my dog has way more energy than me, but I'm realizing that my dog has way more energy than me not necessarily in the sustained persistence hunter way that you're talking about. Carrot 14:31 Exactly. Margaret 14:32 So, I'm curious what is a limit of--I mean, obviously every dog is gonna be different and things like that-- but can you thru-hike with a dog if you're going way slower and you're not doing the seasonal running thing? You're just like....yeah, somewhere there's a question in there. Carrot 14:52 Yeah, totally. So you can. People do bring their dogs on the long trails. You kind of need a support person, so you can hand off your dog before you go through the no dog sections, and then get your dog back. It's considered cruel to bring a dog on a five month hike, because the way they exercise is so different than the way that we exercise. Margaret 15:11 Right. Carrot 15:11 They go really hard. And then they need more rest than we do. Like in Alaska, they have the Iditarod, which is this big sled dog race. And, it just happened. It just finished, and it's 1000 miles long. And the person who just won did it in eight days. So, his dogs ran over 100 miles a day. And so, these dogs trained really hard. And that is like the pinnacle of what they can do. So they could go really far, but they still can't necessarily go 20 miles a day, everyday for five months. And so, it's actually really rare for someone to thru-hike with a dog. You can do it, but it goes against their natural kind of the way their energy is throughout the day. Margaret 15:48 Right. Carrot 15:49 And so, one reason it's discouraged is because it's really hard to know, if your dog is too hot, it's hard to know if your dog is tired. Like a lot of dogs will follow their person, you know, to the point of injury, you know, because they just want to stay with you. So, people do it. But, it's rare. It's not natural for them. Like, we can do it and thrive. And they just kind of are low key suffering and maybe about to break. It's hard to tell. Margaret 16:28 Yeah, no, and so I guess I'm kind of curious. There's like two scenarios I imagine. One is because there's no one I can leave my dog with for a long period of time. So, I just sort of assume I will not be thru-hiking anytime soon, right? Because, you know, there's a creature I'm responsible for, and no one else is currently responsible for that creature. But I'm like, is there a sense of like you don't want to take your dogs on a month long hike? Do you want to take your dogs on a two week hike? Do you want to take your dogs only...Like, my dog loves going on day hikes with me. And from when I was like, you know, an oogle, a crusty traveler, like a lot of the dogs that I was around--I mean, obviously, not all of them--some of them were treated very badly. But, many of the dogs were very happy in that they got to be with their person all day and they were always like exercising and stuff. But, that wasn't like we're walking 20 miles today. That's often like we're walking five miles today, we're, you know, hitchhiking. We're doing all these other things. I'm just wondering if you have a sense of 1) The limit in terms of like the now, and then 2) If there's a sense of what you would think for if your protagonist escaping the apocalypse has a dog like, what are ways to work around that? Like I could imagine...like, if I had to leave, right, do I get a dog backpack? It's about 45 pounds. I would be sad. But like, if you know, if I'm not hiking for fun and I'm hiking for "I gotta get somewhere," right? Carrot 17:58 Yeah. So, people hiking the long distance trails, there's like a standard sort of blanket mileage that varies, but people generally say like 20 miles a day is kind of the standard. And so, over the course of like a month, three months, five months different dog breeds are different, but depending on your dog that could be too much for your dog. Like, your dog might need more rest days. But like, maybe your dog could do 20 miles a day for three days, but then they would need a day or two off, you know? Margaret 18:27 Right. Carrot 18:27 And so what you would have to do is instead of being tied to the weather window of the trail, you would be tied to how your dog is doing. So, you would just have to really be in touch with all your dog's signs, like does your dog...Like, know how to tell if your dog is too hot, if your dog's feet hurt, all these different things, and then you would just have to adjust your travel based on your dog. So, you just wouldn't...you wouldn't necessarily be able to hike the PCT in the five month window. And you would end up if you were in an arid area you would end up carrying more water. Because if you go slower than it's farther between water sources because the West is so dry. So, you would carry more water. But yeah, you would just plan the hike much differently. And it would be your own journey with your dog. Margaret 19:13 Yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, I realized...I pretty quickly disabused myself of the notion that I was going to be hiking the Appalachian Trail, or PCT, or anything anytime soon. Secretly, this podcast is me just asking people for advice about my own life and problems and then hoping it's universally usable in some ways. But that makes sense to me. And then it does seem like, you know, everything I'm reading about, what you're talking about, like hiking with lighter packs and all of that, and how it has all these advantages in being able to go further and be more sustainable and all of these things. And it does seem like a lot of the choices that people would have to make in different survival scenarios might counteract that, because if I'm talking about like...Okay, if I was hiking through the desert with the dog, I need way more water, which means I'm carrying a heavier pack and then also if I'm out longer I might need a different level of survival equipment. It seems like it would kind of escalate pack weight very quickly? Carrot 20:07 Yeah. But, I think that the sort of minimalism that one learns--like, it's the sort of strategic minimalism that you learn when you do a five month hike because all you have to think about every day is like what you're carrying and how heavy it feels and so you get really good at like...Just, it's like strategy. And so I think that would carry over, where even if you, you know, didn't have all these high tech materials, were in the desert, had a dog, like all these different things, your pack will still end up lighter than if you didn't use this sort of really fun strategic thing that I'm sure you've encountered on YouTube. Margaret 20:44 Yeah, yeah. No, go ahead. Sorry. Carrot 20:47 Yeah, yeah. But, it would be heavier. But then you would just work around that. Like, if your pack is heavier you don't go as many miles a day because it's harder on your joints. And you just, you know, you just work around that too. Like, last fall was my second season hunting in Alaska tagging along on my friends hunts, and I've never had to carry a pack as heavy as I do hunting. And that's been like a whole new learning curve being like, Okay, this is a 60 pound pack. Like, I can only go this many miles. You know, I have to really be careful like all these different things. Margaret 21:21 Yeah. Yeah, that is the thing that I because I, you know, I come from this background of like failed train hopping and regular hitchhiking. And like, these long distance walks and things like that, but not hiking. And I would need what I need to sleep and all of these things. And so, you know, we used to kind of make fun of ultralight hikers, who are like, you know, shaving off every ounce of what they could And it's like, well, I knew Pogo Dave who traveled with a big metal Pogo stick or whatever, right? And, you know, walked across the country pushing a shopping cart and shit. But then you just realize how different these setups are, and what their goals are is so completely different. And so yeah, I don't know quite how to phrase it, but I'm so interested in the difference between the 60 pound hunting pack and the 9.8 pound, you know, backpacking pack or whatever. And i did, I ran across these people. And I My first thought was like, "Well, fuck that. Just like carry what you need. Whatever," you know. And then slowly, when you see the people who are like less annoying about it, you're like, "Oh, I think I get it. I think I understand why they're doing this," you know? Carrot 21:21 Yeah, it's about injury prevention not being in pain and knowing what your goal is. So, if your goal is to finish a five month trail hiking 12 hours a day for five months, your chance of injury is really high. So, the lighter your pack is, to an extent, you know, the lighter your pack is the lower your chance of injury, and the less pain you'll be in. So, it actually really increases your enjoyment. The only caveat being--the rules I tell people because I do long distance hiking coaching and I do these like guided trips where I help people like make their gear lists and stuff--the rules...Here are the rules: you need to be warm, well fed, comfortable enough at night to sleep well, and be prepared for all the different weather you're gonna encounter at that season in that area. And as long as your gear fits those rules you meet those guidelines. Like, the lighter your pack is the more fun you're gonna have. Margaret 23:28 Yeah, it makes sense to me. I just have so many questions about ultralight stuff. It's just so fascinating to me. It seems like one of the things where people go without, to me, what seems like emergency equipment. Like, because I think about...it seems like I'm watching people--and I expect them wrong, that's why I'm presenting this to you is because you have a lot of experience with this and have tried different types of hiking--but it's like, if there's something that I keep around just in case, right, in case something terrible happens or whatever that I don't use it on a daily basis, and so it starts becoming one of those things that you could imagine getting rid of. And then you're like, "But when you need it, you need it." And so it seems like that is what I worry about when people talk about barely having first aid kits and shit like that, you know, or the kind of gear that if like the weather gets a lot worse unexpectedly--because it seems to me that if you have this very minimalist setup that works for most days but then it doesn't work for like the sudden really bad weather days--It doesn't seem like it's a good enough piece of gear. But, maybe that is being taken into consideration and I'm just being annoyed at people or like retro actively defending the fact that I used to carry this ridiculously heavy bag and I injured my chest with it once when I was like 28. I don't know. Carrot 24:48 Yeah, that's the thing is if your pack is too heavy it will injure you, and that will ruin your hike. So, it doesn't matter what emergency preparedness stuff you're carrying, like the emergency is that you ruined your hike and you have to get off trail and your hike is ruined. So, the thing is things are knowable. Like the world is knowable. Like when you go to drive your car you know what's likely to go wrong. And you know what would be a freak accident that you're not going to prepare for, like the stuff you have in your car. Like my car burns oil, so I carry oil. I carry coolant just because my car is old. I carry jumper cables. It's winter, so I carry a sleeping bag, you know, because I'm in Alaska, and I have an old car. These are the things that are likely to go wrong. I don't carry anything for if I get struck by lightning because there's not--I mean, if I lived like in the high mountains in Colorado in July, I would have to consider lightning--but in Alaska it's all central [uninterpretable word], so you don't think about lightning. I don't carry anything for shark attacks. I carry bear spray for a bear. But so, it's just knowing what's likely to happen versus freak accidents that don't make sense to be prepared for. So, people might not carry a generic first aid kit, but they do carry supplies for all of the medical problems that actually happen regularly. Like I don't carry just some generic first aid kit from REI because I don't know what to do if I break my leg. If I break my leg like I need a helicopter, you know? But that would be a real freak accident. That's extremely unlikely to happen. But, what does happen and what can end your hike and does end people's hike a lot are infected blisters, sprained ankles, and things like that. And I carry stuff, and I have treated stuff that like multiple times. And, I always have what I need. Or, like gear failures. Like I carry dental floss with a needle inside, which I learned from riding trails. And that's come in handy. So, I always have...and then things for chafe because chafe happens a lot and can be really painful. So, that can get you off trail. So, people actually, they might not have like, they might not have something for like a trauma wound, which would be like...I don't even know what a trauma wound...I don't even know what I'm saying. But like...or a puncture wound. But, that would be like a real freak accident. But they do have, in my experience, people do have stuff for the things that actually happen, and the same with the weather. Because, the weather in every spot on earth for whatever season you have to be there is knowable. You can research it, you can know what the trends are. Even with climate change, you can know what's likely to happen. You can talk to other hikers. Every long distance trail every year has a Facebook group. And people as they're hiking, will post on that Facebook group. So you can know like, "Oh, I'm climbing to 9000 feet tomorrow. And these people ahead of me say there's ice. I should have microspikes." Or like, "There's a storm coming in, and the people ahead of me say that the river is really swollen and it's gonna be hard to cross so I should like take a day off and wait for the river to go down." So, it's just..it's instead of carrying a bunch of stuff and having no idea where you are or what's happening, and just having all this stuff you just do your research. And like long distance hikers obsessively research when they're on trail because that's all you have to think about all the time. So, as long as--I mean, you can be reckless and not have any of that stuff--but then that will affect your chances of actually finishing, which is what everyone wants to do. Because, you want to have this like fun, full immersion experience. So generally, in my experience, people are prepared even though they don't have like generic first aid kits. Margaret 28:13 No, that makes sense. I think I have a like defensive maximalism, you know? It's not a maximal...Well, I mean, I guess it depends what you're trying to do. Like, it's not a like I'm going hiking and I need a folding saw, you know? Although if I'm gonna go live in the woods for a while, I want a folding saw, but like, you know, it's a very different goal, right? So I guess I wonder... Carrot 28:39 Okay, can I say one more thing? Margaret 28:40 Yeah, yeah, please. Carrot 28:41 They say that you pack your fears. And, so say you're afraid of getting hurt on trail. So you're like, I should bring all this extra stuff. That extra weight will hurt you. So, that's the irony. So that's like the irony in all of it. And the thing is, a lot of people start long distance hiking that way because that's kind of the way we all learned about the outdoors because we're an urban...Humans are urban. Like, humans in the US are urban. We're not little feral creatures that live in the woods. We don't have these like intimate relationships with like what the wind is doing, or like when the poppies are blooming, you know? And so we go out there and we don't have any idea what the fuck is going on or where we are. And so we want to pack our fears. And then as soon as you start a long distance hike every ounce you're carrying hurts. And so all day, every day, all you have to think about is sort of--as you're being like punished for carrying all your fears--all you have to think about is like, "What do I actually need?" And so that's really common for people to start with really heavy packs and then really quickly they're like, "Okay, I know what I really need and what I don't need." And you also start to learn what you as an individual need on trail because everyone is different. Everyone has like a different sort of comfort zone. So, it's a process because we're not...We're urban. We're like, we don't know what the fuck is going on in nature. Margaret 30:06 Well, I think a lot of the outdoorsy type folks will also over pack, but kind of in a different way. But it's more of the like...it's not thru-hiking. It's the like bushcraft version. It's the like, I'm gonna go build up a cabin version, you know? Which, I think is overkill for most people. Like most people, when they're imagining like disaster scenarios and the escape from disaster scenarios you don't need to go build a log cabin in the woods. You need to like get to a state where they're not trying to kill you for being trans or whatever. And it is a different thing. So, I guess I take back my own caveat. Carrot 30:42 Yeah, I think long distance hikers love to make fun of bushcrafters and probably bushcrafters love to make fun of ultralight backpackers. You know, I was thinking about bushcraft the other day, because I was skiing--or I was trying to ski, because I'm learning so I don't really know what I'm doing--and I was just looking at my gear and looking at my friend's gear and I was like, "Everything we have right now is because of plastic. Like literally everything." And then I was like, "What would this even be like if we didn't have plastic?" I was like, "We'd be wearing like wool, and leather, and like animal skins, and everything would be made out of wood." And then I started thinking about bushcraft. And I was like, "That's kind of what it is." Bushcraft is like outdoor stuff without synthetic materials in a way. Margaret 31:23 Yeah. Carrot 31:24 Which is like an interesting way to think about it, which is really different. It's really different. And so, if your gear is just heavier, there's just different things you can do. It's like just a whole different kind of thing. Margaret 31:35 Yeah, I really. No, that's such a fascinating way of thinking about the difference between bushcraft and hiking and then like...You know, I think it's funny because it's like, if someone decides that they're like, "I'm gonna get into outdoors walking stuff." There's all of these different cultures and ways of looking at it. And you have the bushcraft version and you have the ultralight hiking version and then you have like--traditional backpacking seems like sort of the weird in between--and then you also have the tactical version, where it's like, "This is how you get into enemy territory with like, you know, when you're stuck carrying like 30 pounds of ammunition." or wherever the fuck. And it's like, it's so interesting to me how it breaks down even to different like shelter types, right, like the bushcrafters like--although it does go full circle. I would say that bushcrafters and ultralight hikers are both the ones who are like "A tarp is all I need," or whatever, versus traditional backpacking where you're like, "I want a fucking tent." You know? Carrot Yeah, it's really interesting, our different relationships with nature in this year of our Lord, 2023 in the US. Margaret 32:41 Yeah. And there's ways that people have to think about kind of all of them if they're trying to prepare. Although I can see how you can get lost over preparing in thinking about every single possible thing that could go wrong. If you're traveling in a vehicle, it's a little bit easier to do that. Right? It's a little bit easier to be prepared for every possible contingency or whatever. Carrot 33:02 Can I tell you an interesting story? Margaret 33:04 Yeah. Carrot 33:04 I love thinking about this stuff. So, we we live in a time in human history where we're very urban, the most urban we've ever been, and so a lot of people don't spend much time outdoors at all, which, you know, is like they just can't. Like, they don't have access or there's so many different reasons. And, the people who do spend time outdoors, access it through these really different channels that almost aren't communicating with each other. Margaret Yeeeeah. Carrot 33:31 But, the tactical hunter versus the ultralight backpacker, and it's really interesting, because they've developed outdoors cultures that are so different. Like, in Alaska, for example, there are a lot of grizzly bears, which grizzly bears are dangerous, but they're also very knowable. So, you can kind of get to know grizzly bear culture and then you can do sort of like best practices and your chances of being attacked by a bear become extremely low. And so, depending on what you're doing, different people have ideas about what those best practices are. Margaret 34:04 Bear spray versus 10 millimeter? Carrot 34:07 I mean, bear spray works better. Margaret 34:09 Yeah, no, I know. Yeah. Carrot 34:12 But, for example, a few years ago, I was going on a four day backpacking trip in the Brooks range with some of my friends from Anchorage. And the Brooks range is in the Arctic. It's really remote and ironically, the Grizzlies are much less dangerous up there because the area we were going has no salmon. So, there are much fewer Grizzlies. There are just way fewer Grizzlies. And also, we're north of treeline, so there's no tree cover. And when Grizzlies are dangerous...if you see a grizzly from a distance, and it knows what you are, if it can smell you, it will run away like so fast. But, if you surprise a grizzly at close range, they feel like they have to like defend their honor and that's when they attack. It's like okay, they think it's like a challenge. They're like, "Now I must fight you!" Margaret 34:58 Understandable. Carrot 34:58 So, you want to avoid brush and trees in areas where there are grizzlies like as much as you can, avoid brush and trees. So, the Arctic is north of treeline. So it's a really safe place because there are fewer Grizzlies. And if you see one, it's like really far away and the two of you can just give each other a wide berth, because they're actually very scared. So, I was going on a trip with my friends, who are all from Anchorage, which is actually a very dangerous place because there are tons of grizzlies and like once a year someone dies. But, my friends were like, "Oh my gosh, we're going to the Arctic. What are we gonna do about the Grizzlies?" And I was like "You guys, like it's actually safer there. There's fewer bears." And they're like "We should bring Ursacks," which are these like Kevlar bags that the grizzlies can't bite through. It's like a bear can, but lighter. They're great. They're like, "We should bring Ursacks and we should line Ursacks with the scent proof plastic bags and we should put the Ursacks really far from our camp." And I was like, "We can do all that. But actually, it's like safer there than where we live." Like, hiking the Arctic is safer than going on a day hike in Anchorage, like 20 times safer. And, and I was like, "You guys go on day hikes all the time." Anyway, we went and we were all like super careful. Like, you know, when we set up camp, we would go cook like on a hill over there. And then we would put our food in our Ursack, and we could go put it on a hill over there. And then our tents would be here. And it would be like, you know, we would be up wind of where we cooked and like all these different things. And I was like, "Okay, great, you know, that's fine." And then a few weeks later, I went on a moose hunting trip with my friend Birch, who his whole way of knowing the outdoors is hunting, which is also really common in Alaska. And there were five of us and we were hiking eight miles into this drainage through Willow Brush with pack rafts and then we were going to get the moose and we were gonna pack raft out. So we got in and he got the moose. And we processed it. And you know, we were covered in blood. The pack rafts were covered in blood. Like, everything was covered in blood. And, we had these huge pieces of moose in cotton game bags that were soaked in blood like piled our pack rafts. We got we got to camp...Oh, no one has bear spray. I'm the only one with bear spray. You know? They have rifles. But, what good is a rifle gonna to do when you're in your sleeping bag? You know what I mean? Margaret 34:58 Yeah, totally. Carrot 35:29 Like that's when the bear could come for your blood or whatever. And, we get to camp and we like take these huge pieces of moose and lay them out on the gravel bar just overnight out in the open. And we all have our tent set up. And I was like, "Hey, Birch, do you ever use an Ursack?" And he was like, "What's an Ursack?" And, our moose hunt was in an area with way more Grizzlies. And there was brush everywhere and we saw like three grizzlies. And it was just so funny, because they weren't concerned at all. And, I think part of it is that guns give people this like false sense of confidence around bears, even though with bears like things happen really fast and you need something you can grab really fast. If you need to be like a sharpshooter, it's not very accessible, like you need something that anyone can use and another part of it....Go ahead. Margaret 38:07 Also, if you shoot a bear--I'm not speaking from experience, I'm speaking from reading about this-there's been a bunch of studies that shooting bears is not a particularly effective way of stopping bears in the short term and pepper spray or bear spray is very effective. Like, even if a bear is charging and I manage to shoot it that doesn't mean I'm safe. Carrot 38:25 Yeah, you have to have a certain gun. I don't know that much about guns. You have to have a certain gun and you shoot it in a certain place. So, the odds of all that happening like extremely fast...Whereas bear spray, you spray them in there. [makes a shrieking sound like a bear that's been maced] "It's burning!" You know, and then they run away. Margaret 38:41 Have you had to do that? Have you ever sprayed a bear? Carrot 38:43 No. Margaret 38:44 Okay. Carrot 38:45 But, I've been around a lot of bears, but I haven't yet had to spray one. Margaret 38:49 I'm glad. I'm just curious. Anyway, I interrupted you twice. Please continue. Carrot 38:55 Yeah. So, his conceptualization of what the danger was...Oh! That's the other thing. So, I think part of the reason hunters don't--this is my theory--I think part of the reason hunters don't think about bears is because the guns give them this false sense of confidence, even though bears do sometimes attack hunters. The other thing is bears have bear culture. Like, in different areas, bears learn different things and pass that knowledge on to their cubs. Like, some places, if you do a bear hang, the bear doesn't know what it is. And it can't get it. Other places, bears are really good at getting bear hangs, you know? And, I think that bears know when hunting season is and they know what hunters smell like. That's my theory. Margaret 39:40 And they're like, "I'm staying the fuck away from them. They all have guns." [inflected as a question] Carrot 39:43 I don't know if that's true, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was true. And that that's one reason that hunters don't have to take the same precautions. Margaret 39:50 I mean, it's sort of interesting because guns are notorious for a false sense of security. But, in this case it's like, even though it's sort of a false sense of security, it's not the right way to handle a bear, but maybe that kind of like confidence of walking through the woods with a group of people and doing your thing, maybe that's a better way to live. Like... [trailing off laughing] Carrot 40:18 There's also...so when an animal is a predator, it moves differently walking than when an animal is a prey animal, and hunters move the way predators move, and hikers tend to move, I don't know, all sorts of ways, but hunters move the way predators move. And so that could be something that communicates to the bear that these are hunters. And to be more scared, I don't know. Margaret 40:35 No, that's so interesting. I'm really fascinated by these different ways of interacting with the forest. Because, it's like, you know, I live rurally. But, it doesn't actually...it provides me access to nature in that, I can walk out my door, and there's a lot more trees than houses. I can see one house, and I can see 10,000 trees, you know? But, there's also just like private land everywhere. So, I actually can't go hiking out my door. I'm as far away from hiking here as as if I lived in a--not a big city, but a medium city. You know, when I want a good scenic five mile hike, I drive an hour. It's not as many miles, because rural roads take you forever to get anywhere. But, it's just such a different way of interacting with... And then, all like folks around here are a lot more likely to drive down with ATVs, and go like ATVing and shit like that rather than specifically go hiking. But, they are still people who are interacting with the woods constantly. And so, in my mind, I feel like I'm trying to find...I'm on this quest to find out which like culture's way of interacting with the wild and specifically around gear honestly, is the best for the preparedness person. And this is obviously going to be completely different depending on what your fucking threat model is, where you live, what your goals are. But, I think I'm subconsciously doing it. I'm trying to be like, "Do I want to be like a hunter? Do I want to be like a tactical bro? Do I want to be like an ultralight hiker? Do I want to be like an oogle? Like, you know, which method? Carrot 42:16 So, I have a lot of thoughts about what you just said. I think this would be my strategy, which may be the path I'm taking. Margaret 42:22 That is the goal of me asking you things, is to find your strategy. Carrot 42:25 Yeah. Because I also believe--well I don't know if this is exactly what you believe--but I think that all supply chains and infrastructure, and grids, and things are going to collapse in the next few decades. Margaret 42:39 Yeah...[On a] long enough timeline: Yeah. Carrot 42:42 I think if one learns the strategy of ultralight backpacking, which relies heavily on really high tech gear--that is currently being manufactured using these intensive processes that rely on supply chains and things--if one learns ultralight backpacking and hunting sort of strategy and gear, and like bushcraft, I think between those three skill sets, one would have the best chance of creating this like hybrid model for like, say, if you needed to walk across the country. Like in The Last of Us in their walk across the country--so, their world is like 20 years post collapse of supply chains manufacturing, like all those different things--I don't think they're carrying the right gear. So, knowing what they more or less, like guessing what they had access to, some changes I would have made is: They're wearing like leather boots. I think Ellie's wearing...What are they called? Margaret 43:45 Maybe Chucks? But I can't remember? Carrot 43:47 Yeah, Chuck Taylors. Margaret 43:49 I think. I can't remember. Yeah. Carrot 43:51 Like, if they have access to shoes, obviously, which maybe is unrealistic, but in the show, they have access to shoes. I would get some running shoes, or trail runners. And then, their backpacks are made of looks like heavy canvas. And, I would get a backpack made of a lighter weight material. And then I would line it with something like a trash bag to make it waterproof. Because, that's what I do now. I just carry a trash bag folded up, and I use that. And then, they weren't filtering their water. And also, all of their layers seemed to be cotton, which eventually, you know, in the future, we'll get to a point where we'll just have like natural materials again. But, if you still have access to a cotton like denim jacket, you can probably still find synthetic layers which are much smarter when it's cold and wet. So, I would have them wearing synthetic layers if they could. Margaret 44:46 That makes a lot of sense to me. Okay, but I've read--again, I expect I'm wrong and I'm running things past you for this reason--I've read that one of the reasons that people wear trail runners, but they sort of expect them to not last, necessarily even a full thru-hike, as compared to like hiking boots, which are expected to last like multiple thru-hikes. Am I wrong about a durability difference between these types of shoes? Carrot 45:15 You're right. So, the trade off is with hiking boots, they last a long time, but they turn your feet to hamburger if you're walking very far day after day. So, in The Last of Us they were walking. I mean, just like guessing by like how far they walk, they were walking all day, every day, day after day. So, in that circumstance, the hiking boots would last, but they would destroy your feet and maybe keep you from being able to continue on your journey. So, I guess the question would be...Like, the way I long distance hike right now, I change my trail runners every 400 miles because that's when the cushion gets more compact. And so, they don't provide as much cushion. So, I'll get more foot pain. But, if I was in a situation where I didn't have access to a lot of trail runners, I would just wear them for longer. And then,...I guess it would be a question of, can you eventually get to a point where your feet have adjusted to leather boots so that you can do that many miles day after day? Because, in traditional backpacking, people just didn't do as many miles day after day. Or, there's also you know, there's a lot of different... Margaret 46:26 Maybe they're only going eight miles a day? Carrot 46:29 But they went really far. I don't remember, but... Margaret 46:32 I think that's movie magic. Carrot 46:34 But, they went from the East Coast to Wyoming so... Margaret 46:37 I think they break down and they get most of the way out in car and then they break down. Anyway. Sorry. Please continue. Carrot 46:43 Yeah, maybe they were taking lots of breaks. Okay, so there is an alternative, I think, in this scenario. So, in Mexico, there are people, indigenous people, who are long distance runners and long distance walkers. I don't know if it's more than one tribe, or...I don't know. But, that book Born to Run talks about these people a lot. Margaret 47:04 The barefoot... Carrot 47:04 But yeah. So, they make sandals out of old tires. And, that's what they wear. Because sandals...So, the thing about hiking 20 miles a day, day after day, is it's less like backpacking, more like running a marathon. So, you want to think "Would I run a marathon in this?" because whatever you're wearing will rub you to death. So, boots will rub you to death. So, say trail runners aren't accessible, if you made sandals out of old tires, those are so minimalist that they might not rub you to death the way boots would, but you would be able to make new pairs and they would last a long time. So, actually, people in Mexico have maybe figured it out. Like, that might be the answer is sandals made out of tires. Margaret 47:47 I consciously believe you. But, I've been wearing boots my entire life. And in my mind, they're like...I mean, in my head, the compromises that I used to wear lace up steel toed boots and now I wear like tactical boots with a zipper down the side that are like, mostly mesh, and stuff. And in my mind, I'm like, these are clearly the perfect boots. These are clearly the best boots for every situation, how could they possibly be bad? But, I accept that you have the experience and you're probably right. My brain won't accept it. Carrot Would you want to a run a marathon in them? Margaret 48:26 I don't have the lung capacity to run. I have never been able to. So, I can't. That is a meaningless thing for me, right? Because, I've never been able to run. I mean, I can run, right? But, I like I lose....I can't imagine. But, I don't know. I mean, I used to just...whatever, I used to just be an idiot and kind of an asshole. And so I would just be like, "Oh, whatever. Like why are people complaining? Just toughen up. Just wear steel toed shoes all the time." Whatever. Bullshit. And, I'm no longer on that page. But, in my mind, I'm like... [makes grumpy noises and trails off] Carrot 49:01 Yeah, so I have two more thoughts about footwear. One is..so the reason backpackers used to always wear boots is because their gear was so heavy. So, when I go hunting--I actually had to buy my first pair of hiking boots, because if I'm carrying a 60 pound pack--you know how we occasionally roll our ankles when we walk and it's not a big deal? It doesn't really sprain your ankle really. But, if you're carrying a 60 pound pack, it's like much more likely to sprain your ankle. So, that's the point of boots. So, when I'm hunting, I only walk eight miles a day and it still hurts my feet, because the boots really hurt my feet. But, it keeps me from worrying about spraining my ankle if I roll it. Whereas, with the backpacking gear that exists now, it's not as heavy, so you can roll your ankle without spraining it, so you can wear trail runners. So, in this scenario, if your pack was really heavy, you probably would want to wear boots and then you would just compromise on how many miles per day you could walk, and your feet would be in pain. Margaret 49:56 That makes sense. Carrot 49:57 And then my other thought...but, hopefully in this scenario, you would be able to create this sort of hybrid kit with all your knowledge of like hunting, bushcrafting, and ultralight backpacking and the materials, we still have access to that your pack, maybe your pack wouldn't be crazy heavy. And, then my other thought is: So, in Mexico, there are people who run long distances who create these sandals out of old tires, which is a resource that will be around for a bit. And then in North America, or like further north North America where it's colder, traditionally, people had footwear that they made that they could walk long distances in that also was warmer, like things like moccasins and different...more like, flexible comfy footwear that also wasn't a boot. So, I think even if you didn't have access to trail runners, I don't think the only option would be boots for their durability. I think you could make like some sort of show. Yeah, that's my theory. Margaret 50:54 No, no, no, this is really interesting. Because, I'm like, imagining like the ultimate setup, in my mind, would be like, nonshiny materials, because in my head, I've heard it referred to as like, outdoors gear being either like tactical or technical, and sort of an aesthetic difference in a lot of ways. Like, everyone's wearing fleece, but some people are wearing camo fleece, and some people are wearing, you know, bright colored fleece or whatever, right? Except for me. I'm walking around in a fucking hoodie. And, this is...I'm slightly smarter than that. That's not true, the last time we went hiking, I was just in my Carhart coat over a hoodie. But, it also wasn't long distance. So, it doesn't really matter. Carrot 51:39 I mean, if you know there's not going to be cold rain, you probably won't get hypothermia. Margaret 51:45 Yeah. Yeah. So ,if you, I guess you're already north. If you had to leave on foot, you would be going for sort of a hybrid setup? I guess if it depends on the situation. Now, I'm already answering for you in my head. Never mind. Carrot 51:45 Yeah, let's say I had to walk into Canada, for example, which it would be really easy to sneak...I'm not allowed in Canada. But, it would be really easy to sneak...Because, there's one protest in particular on my record that they don't like from 2003. And then, there's all the like misdemeanor train stuff for my 20s. But, that's old enough that they don't they don't care about it. But, they really don't like this protest thing So, they just don't let me in. But, it would be really easy to sneak into Canada at the Alaska-Canada-border. So, let's say that's what I wanted to do. Well, the thing about Alaska is, there are a lot of really big rivers to cross. So, you would have to consider that like, would you either carry a pack raft, which would add weight, like between the pack raft, and the paddle, and like a PFD, you know, that would add like 10-15 pounds. Margaret 52:16 What's that? What's a PFD? A personal flotation device? Carrot 52:54 Yeah, just like a life jacket. Yeah. Or, would you, you know, just build a raft every time you got to a massive river and just case by case basis troubleshoot trying to cross these rivers. So, and then another consideration would be, so wherever you are, if you decide to go on a long journey, like where you are, for example, you'd want to know how the plant communities change at different elevations. That would help you plan your route. Like, if you were like, "At this one elevation, there's this really thorny brush that's impossible to get through and really terrible." And so, as you were passing through that elevation, you want to find like a road, or a trail, or something that goes through it as you're making your route. And then, if you were like, "Well, at this elevation, it's like this open forest, it's really nice." So then, you would plan your route as much as you could through the landscape that was easier walking. Or, you would be like, "There's these old roads." Like, Alaska doesn't have many roads, but like other places have a lot of old logging roads and mining roads. So, like finding those, you know, and then planning your route. And then, for me, it's pretty rainy in the summer, so, I guess I'd want to have a rain jacket, and rain pants, and trash bags to keep all my stuff dry, and good synthetic layers that were warm, even when they were wet. If I have a down sleeping bag, I'd want to make sure to have like really good trash bag waterproofing system for my sleeping bag in my backpack so it would stay dry. And then, as far as like, fuel goes, I guess it depends on what's available, maybe backbreaking fuel isn't available. Maybe I'm just making fires. And, the challenge would just be drying out if it happens to just rain for two months straight, like figuring out when I can dry out, which maybe it would be a matter of like making fires if the rain never stops. So, staying dry to prevent hypothermia would probably be like the biggest challenge, and then getting over these big rivers. And then for food, if backpacking food wasn't available, I have no idea how i would survive. I think, Okay, this is what I would do. I would have...Let's say that things have collapsed to the point where no one is regulating hunting. So, for example, like, as an Alaskan resident, even though I'm an Alaskan resident, like, I can't hunt seal. The only people who can hunt seal and whale are like, people in native communities in really specific areas. And so, I can't hunt seal, but realistically, if one is to live off the land in Alaska, you're gonna get most of your calories from fat from sea mammals. So, I would need to have figured that out in advance. Like, I would need like seal oil, and berries and dried salmon and dried meat, but I would need a lot of fat to get most of my calories from because there aren't any carbs up here that you can eat. Yeah. I think that would be my strategy. Margaret 55:58 Okay. Okay. That all make sense to me. Yeah, in my mind, because where I live is like, if I had to walk to Canada, I would be skirting back and forth across roads. On the other hand, maybe all the bridges across all the rivers is exactly where they would like, you know, the militias would be laying ambushes or whatever, you know. So actually, maybe all that stuff, but it never even occurred to me that there's something called a packraft until today. It's a neat concept. Carrot 56:27 You could bring a pool floatie. Margaret 56:29 Yeah, yeah, totally. Carrot 56:30 Just raid a CVS or a Walgreens. Margaret 56:35 I'm planning...I'm saving up to buy a freeze dryer. This is my like wingnut prepper thing that I really want. They're like, they started about $2,500 for home ones. And then, I can just give everyone backpacking food forever. Carrot 56:54 Cool. Margaret 56:55 But, it would work better if I was combining with, you know, honestly, if you're in a city and around people who dumpster dive, that's where a freeze dryer shines. Take your free food and preserve it forever. Or, if you garden a lot, or grow a lot of food. Okay, well. There's so much I want to talk to you about, but I think we're kind of running down on time. Carrot 57:18 We've almost figured it out. Margaret 57:19 I know. It's a combo of all of the...You have to multiclass between ultralight and hunter and then you're pretty much good. And with a little bit of bushcrafter, which I feel like the hunter is a little bit close to. Go ahead. Carrot 57:34 There's definitely a lot of skills I don't have that would be useful in this scenario. Like, I can't snare a rabbit. That would be really useful. I guess I would want to be hunting, but like, I don't know if I would have enough bullets or like, what kind of gun or like...Would I have like a bow and arrow? I don't know enough about hunting to know what kind of hunting I would be doing, or if I would just be carrying enough seal oil and dried moose meat to make the whole journey. So, I don't know. I don't know about that bit. Margaret 58:06 Yeah, no, I basically have already decided that my veganism lasts until it's like me or the animal. You know? And I actually believe very strongly in that...Like, I actually don't think there's anything ethically wrong with hunting at all. I just have no personal interest in an eating it. But...For anyone who's listening is wondering why vegan says that, in this case, I believe that you're not raising the animal in captivity, it lives free, whatever, people eat things, that's fine. This is the thing we get the most angry people writing about is whenever we talk about either veganism or nonveganism, people get really upset about, and vegans always hate me because I'm like a self hating vegan or whatever, because I'm like, I don't think there's anything ethically wrong with eating meat. Anyway, I just avoid thinking about all that stuff, which doesn't work because then I can't just be like, magically after the apocalypse, I like...I'm a decent shot. So at least I have that. Right? But, I don't know, fucking how to stalk, or dress, or cook. You know? But I'll just magically learn it in a survival situation. That's always the best time to learn. [Said very sarcastically] Carrot 59:19 Yeah, they say that people learn fastest when you're like a little bit stressed out. So also, you live in an area where you can grow a lot of foods. So, like you wouldn't be as reliant. In Alaska, you can't grow grains. You can't grow beans, like you can't. Traditionally, people lived off animal fat for most of their calories. Margaret 59:41 Totally. Carrot 59:43 I think it would sort of like quickly revert to that like, "Okay, we have a lot of fish." But, where you are, it would make sense to like grow a lot of like grain and stuff and that would be really good food to have. Margaret 59:56 Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna have so many freeze dried potatoes. A fucking entire basement full of freeze dried potatoes. What could go wrong? Well, is there anything? Last last thoughts? Or you know, do you want to talk about, you want to advertise your books again? Or, talk about the stuff that you run or where people can find you? Carrot 1:00:16 Sure. I'll I'll talk about this. Can I talk about this book, this novel I've been working on? Margaret 1:00:21 Yeah. Carrot 1:00:23 So I think... Margaret 1:00:25 But don't spoil it. Carrot 1:00:25 Okay, well, no spoilers. It's been really fun to think about, like everything we've been talking about, like if someone is on this long journey, like what would they have access to? What would still be around? How would they survive? So, that's kind of what I try to do. And, I kind of skip over the dark collapsing bits to get to the long journey part, because I think that's what's like fun and interesting. And, I think it gives me a sense of hope to try to be like, okay, what, what will things actually look like? This is one reason I love The Last of Us so much, too, is because you got to see how they like imagine like, oh, what would be left in a mall? Like a shut down mall. What stores would have been raided? What would still be left? Like, what materials would people have access to? And so, I think that's really fun. And, she does have a little dog. She has a chihuahua, that rides in her bike pannier, and nothing bad ever happens to the Chihuahua. Margaret 1:00:39 That's good. Carrot 1:00:49 Nothing bad ever happens to the dog. So, that's great. [The transcriber does not know if Carrot is being earnest or not and has not seen The Last of Us to discern whether this is a sarcastic statement or not] And, I think some people I think, maybe think thinking about this stuff is kind of dark, but I find it really comforting. Margaret 1:01:32 I agree. It's, yeah. Yeah, there's so many reasons. Carrot 1:01:39 I also, you know, I've read too, that in a survival situation, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what skills we have. What matters is like our ability to organize with other people, beca

Episode Summary Margaret and Agatha talk about mutual aid in Ukraine and Agatha's experience trying to go there to fight in an anti-authoritarian platoon, but ending up doing a bunch of mutual aid supply distribution work instead. They talk about he intricacies of relief work and some of the special circumstances in Ukraine. Heavy content warning on this episode. Towards the end of the episode around 46:00, Agatha starts to tell a really intense story about being in a war zone. Around 56:00 is when it begins to get graphic. Guest Info Agatha (they/them) can be found on IG @jalutkewicz You can donate to their mutual aid work on venmo @agathawilliams or on Paypal @jalutkewicz@gmail.com Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Agatha on Ukrainian Mutual Aid Margaret 00:14 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for it feels like the end times. I'm your host, Margaret Killjoy. And I'm really excited about this week's interview, I am going to be talking to an old friend of mine from quite a while back who haven't talked to in a while about what's involved in anarchists mutual aid in war zones, and specifically, Ukraine, and in the things that are going on there. Yeah, I'm really excited for you all to hear this conversation. But first, I'm excited for you all to hear that we're a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. Margaret 01:13 This is Margaret, from the future, coming back to say that this episode deserves a content warning near the end of the episode and there'll be some heads up. We will be talking about, "Hey, so I hear you were attacked." That part contains graphic descriptions of war and violence. And so listener discretion is advised. Margaret 02:05 Okay, we're back. So, if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then kind of a brief description of why you are in a good place to talk about anarchists mutual aid in places of active conflict. Agatha 02:20 So my name is Agatha. My pronouns are they/them. Yeah, I went over to Ukraine last year about this time to do mutual aid support with anti authoritarian units and anarchists units. Things got fucked up on my way over there. So, that wasn't a possibility any longer. So, I just started doing aid runs with a convoy of other solo operators who went over there to try and do something to help alleviate the suffering of folks. Yeah, I'm here to talk about that. Margaret 02:57 So one of my questions about that, is, what do these aid runs look like? I'm under the impression there are different organizations working to try to get new vehicles and armor and all of these things that, you know, to frontline units, to anti authoritarian units. And these are like, organizations from outside Ukraine that are like sending people and supplies to then deliver the supplies? Like what does this look like? Agatha 03:25 Yeah, so me and a few other folks went over there with a group of cash all of our own, you know, what I mean, and we use that for operational costs, which was, you know, feeding ourselves buying diesel in Poland. And then we worked with some more wealthy sympathizers to the cause, who, one person we worked with owns a distribution company, and they have a giant fucking warehouse in Warsaw, Poland. And, you know, they would make sure items that needed to get to folks close to the frontline, where bigger NGOs wouldn't go, could get things that they needed that were not getting there, i.e. like medicine, sanitary products, food, you know, and then later on body armor and diesel. So, this person would basically...they have a bigger organization that looks a lot friendlier on their website, and you can go and donate money and it has pictures of like Ukrainian kids smiling. So, the run would start like this, we'd get a text from this wealthy patron and they'd be like, "Alright, I've organized another run," you know, "Meet me at my warehouse Saturday at four in the morning and bring four vans," you know, "and eight drivers." And like, we wouldn't know where we're going. We wouldn't know what we're doing. And then we'd get there at four in the morning and then there'd be all these like, gnarly angry Polish dudes just like moving boxes around and making piles. And then the, you know, the person who lead everything and orchestrated everything, she's just a very strong, amazing woman. And she would come out and just start barking orders and be like, "You, you're driving this van, and you're putting all this in your van, but like, I have some other shit to hide at the bottom of the pile. So don't load it yet," you know, "load this van." And then she'd like really quickly, have one of her cronies, bring out a pallet full of body armor inserts that were like, made at a metal shop out of like, AR500 steel that can withstand 556 and 762 rounds. Margaret 05:31 Yeah, gun Twitter will be very upset about this. Agatha 05:35 What's that? Margaret 05:36 I said gun Twitter will be very upset that they're using steel. Agatha 05:40 I know. But if you're out there fucking around, you want something more than nothing, and it's not gonna spatter, AR500 is at least not going to spatter on you, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's not going to create any spalding. But, that regardless, you know, she did her own research on what steels are like the most bulletproof and then she fucking contacted a metal shop with a brake press that could you know, bend quarter inch thick steel that was hardened. And then she had them plasma cut out the designs that fit into vests that she had manufactured from different tailors around Poland, you know, it was just like, it was 100%, DIY, you know, ballistic vests. And it was just amazing. And she'd be like, "Alright, you're delivering all this, like toilet paper, and ibuprofen, and like, you know, baby food to this one location, then you're going to meet with my people at this location, and you're gonna give them these 10 boxes," you know, and those had whatever in them. I never asked, you know, but and then she'd be like, "Give them these 50 vests," you know, "they have like a poorly equipped unit that needs them. They have a mortar unit that's taken a lot of casualties because they're so ill equipped," like, blah, blah, blah. And then she'd be like, "Also, the next van, we're gonna fill it with all toilet paper. But, at the bottom of the toilet paper pile, we're gonna hide 300 gallons of diesel, you know, in these little containers." Margaret 07:02 Why are you hiding it? Agatha 07:05 Because there's like tariffs involved with transporting body armor and transporting fuel across conflict zone lines, apparently. I don't know very much about it. I just know that like, there was like, a big to do. And you had to file a lot more fucking paperwork that took weeks and weeks, if not months to get like 50 fucking vests across the border, and then to the east of Ukraine. Whereas she was just like," I don't give a fuck, you're going there anyways." I mean, she was crazy. She was like, linked up, she'd be like, "Alright, these are your things you need when you get to the border. If you get there early, wait till 5:30 shift, change or whatever. And wait till this one dude is working. Show him this paperwork, and he's gonna let you through without giving you hassle or looking in your van. If you go at other times, I can't guarantee you're gonna get through without a hassle." So, she had stuff going on, that I didn't know about. And I didn't care to ask about. I was just into helping and I was good enough just bringing food and medicine. You know. When I found out we were bringing other shit and like hiding it. I was like, "Oh, that's cool." I was like, "I'm into it. Like, I'm sketchy. Like, I'm down." you know? And so we just like, we would wait, we'd pack up all the vans at four in the morning when we met her there. And then there was a few Polish dudes who would run the convoy once we were on the road. And we all had radios. So, it's like, you know, head convoy dudes like, "You guys got to pick it up, we need to make better time." or people in the back would be like, "Hey, head of convoy slow down, we're losing ya." Yeah, because all our shit was painted drab green and had the organization we were working for plastered all over the side of it. So, we wanted to look like a convoy while we were in Poland and the West of the country, and stick together. And then once we'd get across the border, and hit Lviv, you know, then it scattered and we would take magnets off, and we didn't want to look like a convoy, because convoys get targeted and like, all this other junk. So we had basically leave Warsaw at like five or six in the morning, we'd drive for fucking ever, we'd get to the border, we'd sit there forever, you know, we'd give our slips to the guy we were supposed to give them to, they would just wave us through, they wouldn't search our shit. And then we drive fucking forever to Lviv. And then at Lviv, we'd unload like 80% of the stuff, you know, four out of six in the convoy would go back to Warsaw. And then you know, I was generally one of the ones who would go further east. So, I'd stick around, we'd get coordinates to a new warehouse that we didn't know about, and then we would go refill our vans and Lviv with other shit going further east. And then from there, we'd hit Kyiv. We'd drop a bunch of shit of in Kyiv. If we were transporting vehicles, we'd bring them to the specific units that was asking for them, basically just four by four vehicles that can carry around and a little Assault Squad through mud and shit that they didn't have. And then we'd deliver that shit. And then, you know, we'd spend a night in Kyiv and then we'd get more coordinates the next day. We'd go to another warehouse. We'd fill it up with whatever the fuck was planned for us. And then all this is going on while we are like doing our own shit. Like, last time we were in Zolochiv, they needed salt because their bakery had run dry of salt. They had everything to make bread for the frontline troops except for salt. So, they're like, "We need three vans worth of salt" you know, "We need like 5000 pounds of salt." So, we'd be like moving our salt around to make room for our wealthy patron's shit that she wanted to go to specific units that she had friends in, or whatever that were hard up. You know? So we were just have to like, juggle shit around. And then like, make sure everything fit, throw our 50 gallon drums of diesel on the fucking roof of the car and siphon it out and fill our fucking tanks back up, because you just can't get diesel in Ukraine when we were there. So we had to smuggle in all the diesel for the entire trip. And then, we'd be on our way again. And then we'd eventually get to Kharkiv or wherever, in the far east of the country, get rid of all our shit. And then just like, usually pick up some passengers who wanted to get the fuck out of Kharkiv or wherever the fuck they were, and bring people back and get them out of sketchy situations. And then we'd slowly make our way back to Poland. And we didn't really stop when we were driving. So, some days we drive for like 48 hours straight or some couples of days and then we would take naps and switch out drivers. But on the way back, it was a little more relaxed, like we'd get a hotel or something like in between Kharkiv and fucking Kyiv and try and take showers and get like a good night's rest and then whatever. And then we finally make our way back to Warsaw or Krakow, wherever our next pickup was. We'd rest for 24 hours without doing shit. We would just eat food sleep, nap, like fucking whatever the fuck we felt like doing. Go on walks. Then we'd get another another call from from our person who was funding a lot of this and she'd be like, "Meet me at the warehouse, Tuesday at 1"30 in the morning and bring seven vans this time," you know, so yeah, that's pretty much the cycle that was going on when I was there. Margaret 12:42 Yeah. Okay, so I have a bunch of questions about this. There's so much that's curious to me. Yeah, one of them is like, like, what's in it for this lady? Like, I don't know, if you want to like out her specifically or whatever. But like, it's international solidarity? Is it like... Agatha 12:57 I couldn't tell. Margaret 12:58 Is it just like, we don't want Ukraine to fall because then we think we're next? Is it just the same reason you're there, we just got to fucking help each other? Like, what's going on? Agatha 13:09 So, everything I gathered from talking with this person was that she just like, thought what was going on was super fucked up was like, disgusted that like civilians, were paying such a high price for the actions of, you know, a fascist imperialist government's need to try for a land grab and was just like, honestly disgusted about how little the rest of the world seemed to care about these people who, like, were fucking starving to death and are still starving to death and like fucking living in occupied villages that change hands every couple of weeks, and like, can't get anything because NGOs won't go there. Because Red Cross thinks is too dangerous or whatever. Yeah, I mean, it is but like, that's your fucking job. Like, that's what you should be doing. And it like, came down to like, hundreds and or thousands of like, solo operators who have like these little groups, there's a bunch of us, like, but it's like, hard to...It's hard to say what her end game was. Like, she had a bunch of fucking dudes who, I don't speak Ukrainian or Polish, but there's some words that are the same, you know? And I mean, like, we'd be driving and the radio chatter would be all Polish. And I'd hear like "Americanski,"" and then, "Blah, blah, blah," and then nothing for a minute. And then you'd hear like, "Blah, blah, blah, Pistoleta, blah, blah, blah." And I'm like, what do they got in their van? You know what I mean? But I'm not asking, you know. The most I ever asked was like, the lead dude who took us on the convoys just seemed like he knew his way around a warzone, knew his way, you know, bunch of those motherfuckers were into Brazilian jujitsu. And that's where we like, connected a lot, because that's something I'm into, and they all knew how to handle themselves. They all seem like ex military or something. And one day, I was just like, I was like, "Hey, dude, like, are you ex... It's like, don't answer mean if you don't want to, but like, are you ex military or like current military or something?" And he says, "Kind of." and then walked away. And I was like, "Okay, that's enough." You know what I mean? So like, I don't know what their motivations were. They were like, super not into Russia, I can say that. It like, a little uncomfortable for me because like... and especially the closer you get to the border of the Russia, the more you start hearing terms like 'orc,' and like, stuff like that, as opposed to 'Russian.' I don't know, they had seen more shit than me at that point, had really strong opinions and like, as much as I could tell, they just wanted to, you know, kind of ease some of the suffering that normal everyday people were going through because of the conflict. Margaret 15:47 Yeah. Okay. So that brings it back to like, you know, you mentioned that you, you headed out there hoping to specifically work delivering aid to the anti authoritarian units and stuff. Is that work that you got to continue to do or like? Agatha 16:03 in some ways. So, just to clarify, I originally went out to fight in an anti authoritarian unit made up of English speaking foreigners. That was my my first goal. I had issues with getting my passport in a timely manner. And then there was this like, horrible incident where the unit that had accepted me, they knew when I was coming, they had someone picking me up to bring them to the base and get me situated and fucking geared up. But they're like, "You need body armor. You need a ballistic helmet. You need your own IFAK. You need like, your own fucking compass, you know, basically full kit was needed to be provided by me, because all they were going to....they're going to stick me on a mortar team and I was going to be like, stuck with that mortar team with whatever I brought, or essentially, and then, on my way over there, something happened where the platoon leader was found dead on base. They got assigned a new Platoon leader. This dude was like, "You guys can still fly you're anti anti authoritarian and anarchists flags as a unit, but we're not taking in any more foreigners. And that's that." So while I was on my way there, I was told, you know, "No go on the, on the infantry unit. Blah, blah, blah." So I just like, didn't know what to do. I had like $5,000 worth of tourniquets, and quit clot and fucking chest seals. You know, I had I had ballistic helmets, I had a level four ceramic plates with me. I had more shit than I could carry. I looked like an asshole coming from the Warsaw airport to my hostel, you know. And then I couldn't leave my hostel for like, a week and a half, because I had like, all this gear in there that wouldn't fit in my tiny little safe and like, everyone was like, "What the fuck are you doing with all this shit? And like, why are you here?" And I didn't want to say anything. So I just like seemed sketchy. And then I eventually found a group that was working directly with anarchists fighters at the front. And I was like, "Hey, I brought all this medical supplies. It's basically only heavy bleed stop supplies to treat gunshots and amputations and things of this nature. Do you want it? Like, how do I get it to you?" And they're like, "Yes, totally. One of our people, we'll get with you soon," you know. And this is when I started my waiting game in the hostel trying to like, not leave my shit for too long. And be there waiting for the call. And like a week and a half went by before I got any kind of information. And honestly, I was like, kind of bummed out. This group seemed like they knew what they were doing. Their social media presence was like on point. They were like, just vague enough to like, promote their cause, but like, not giving too much information out. You know, they're just like, whatever. So, I was like, I'll deal with these guys. Fine. I'll give them this medical equipment. And then they just like, totally dropped the ball. And like, they kept saying, someone's going to call me. Every day I texted them. I'm like, I'm sitting on all this crap, I need to get rid of it and be on my way and try and find another way to like, do what I'm trying to do. And it just kept going on. And then, you know, a week and a half. I'd never left the country before I left for this. And I speak no other languages. I'm like super neurodivergent, have like really high anxiety and was just in this foreign city where I didn't understand anything. And just like, every day felt like a week. You know, I was just waiting for my phone to ring and then I could hand the shit off. And like, I had a couple of leads on folks who were like, "Yeah, when you're done doing your thing, like, give us a call and we'll set you up doing some aid work." So I was just waiting and waiting. And then they finally called me. They're like, "Go meet this person at this address. And they'll take all your shit from you." And I was like, "Okay, great." So, I take a fucking cab like across Warsaw, I ended up at this place. I eventually find out it's like, basically like a methadone clinic for like houseless people. I was like, oh cool, whowhoever's doing this also works doing this kind of work you know, but then I just look like a sketch ball, sitting outside of this place with like three fucking duffel bags, waiting for.... Agatha 20:09 Yeah, I have no idea who's coming to meet me. Every person that walked by I'm like, "Are you them?" You know like, yeah, I don't know shit. I'm there. Like the time they're supposed to meet me goes by. I got there like half an hour early because I just wanted to not fuck this up. And then like the time they're supposed to meet me comes and goes and then it's like an hour later. And I call my dudes and I'm like, "Hey, your person's not here yet." They're like, "They're on their way." and then they hang up and I'm like, okay, like literally like four hours goes by of me doing this. Like I'm just like, whatever I'm so bummed and then this like, door flies open to this place and this little person comes out and they're like, "Hey, are you Agatha?" And I was like, "Yeah," and they're like, "Alright, I'm gonna take this shit. Like thanks a bunch." and then like, drags in three duffel bags really quick and slams the door shut and I'm like, fuck like they knew my name, but like I'm pretty sure that was who I was supposed to give this to you know, and then I go back to my hostel and then like whatever. So like, it was like super disheartening to be told I couldn't be in this fighting unit, and then like it was super disheartening to have trouble handing the shit off, but like, in the end, it was probably the best thing that could happen to me, because like, after being there for a while, I was like fuck, "I don't know if I could have been of service in a unit where I have no military training," like, you know, I probably would have been a liability more than anything. So like, Thank God that happened. And then I got hooked up with these people who like, it was like perfect for me. You know, I just drive for 30 hours and then like that was fine with me you know? Like I traveled the country a million times as like a dumb useless punk. Like this was like the same shit, just like felt better because I was like helping people you know what I mean? Margaret 20:09 Thousands of dollars of gear. Agatha 20:36 For everyone that's listening. That's how we that's how we know each other, is being dumb, useless punks traveling the country. Agatha 22:02 So, I just applied whatI knew about like traveling and being comfortable being uncomfortable with like, doing shit and it was like a perfect fit. So, I originally went over to do that. Yeah. And then it switched to this. And then I was only there for like six more weeks. But, I did a bunch of shit while I was there. And, you know, I will probably get into it later. But, I needed to do like a lot of trauma therapy once I got back and like, it's been a year and I just felt comfortable enough to buy another plane ticket there and I'm on my way back. But this time, I don't have to figure anything out. I already have a crew. We have a fleet of nine vehicles. We have deliveries lined up for fucking months. So it's like, I can just jump right back in you know, and like, it's just nice when you like hand a bunch of fucking hungry people food or you know, yeah, like. And that's the thing that struck me most is I went out there as an anarchist and then while I was there, I kind of just turned into like a humanist. I was like, you know, I just didn't give a fuck who I was working with anymore. I was like, "Oh, you're hungry and you need food. I'm gonna bring it to you," and it didn't matter to me anymore who was picking it up. You know, I even worked with some known fascist units who supposedly kicked all the Neo Nazis out, and anti Semites got kicked out, but they still have unscrupulous pasts as like street gangs and stuff, but like, you know, I was bringing them stuff to like, keep people alive. I didn't. I just stopped caring, you know, about political affiliation and shit. Margaret 23:39 No, it makes sense to me though, like, because one of the things that has been so interesting to me about like studying disaster stuff and disaster responses, right, are these like, you know, there's this moment that I wasn't there for but sticks in one of my head, my head is that one of my best friends. I've probably mentioned this on the show before, but one of my best friends is this, you know, crusty traveling punk kid who went to go do flood relief in a place that you could normally drive into, but could only be flown into. And the people who were flying in, were all of these people with like, tiny airplanes, which means rich libertarians. And you know, and so my friend is like talking about being like, and you know, and they're nervous person, and they're in this tiny airplane driving and like flying into a storm with this, like, random libertarian guy, right? And it's just like, and they were fine. And they landed and they delivered supplies and they got food out and got stuff out to people who needed it who were trapped and hungry. And I think that's what's so interesting about disaster, whether it's, quote unquote natural, like the accelerating climate disasters, or, you know, the invasion of an imperialist power into your country is just this like....like the goal isn't to help anarchists. The goal is to help people who are being destroyed by an imperialist power. You know? Agatha 25:05 Yeah, exactly. Margaret 25:07 It's interesting to me, because I do have I have a...like it's like cool, right, supporting the anti authoritarian unit specifically. It's cool and like anarchists organizing this is cool, but a lot of that is like...well, I'm excited that an anarchist is at least one of the drivers of this organization that you're working for, you know. Like you. You know? What is it? What is it like interacting as an anti authoritarian person within this like...you know, yeah, you have this like, rich industrialist lady who's just like, pouring everything and all kinds of risk into just providing things for people and I presume you have this very...like is it this melting pot environment. Like, what is it like socially? Agatha 25:50 It's fucked up, man. Like the guy I got stuck with like, when the group I started driving for wanting to vouch for me, they're like, "We have a solo run. It's like not very sketchy. We're not going that far east. We're just going like outside of Lviv. It's like a fucking shit ton of sanitary products. And then like, you're going to come back to Częstochowa and you're going to fill up the van full of strollers and bring it to this orphanage that's only run for orphans that were victims of losing their parents in fucking Bucha you know. Margaret 26:21 Well, it better be anarchists babies, because otherwise they don't deserve strollers. Agatha 26:24 Yeah. But, the fucking guy picks me up and he's wearing a fucking Black Rifle Coffee Company t shirt. Margaret 26:30 Oh shit. Agatha 26:31 And I was like, What the fuck is this? You know? And I was like, this sucks. And I was like, cuz I knew they weren't going to be anarchists. But I was like, this dude is wearing just a straight up fascist companies t shirt. Margaret 26:44 Yeah, this dude wants to kill you in the United States. Agatha 26:47 Yeah, well, he's from Canada. And that's the thing, like, his view on it was like totally different. I was like, you know, after like, nine hours in the van and like 18 cups of coffee. I was like, "So what's up with your shirt, dude?" And he's like, "Well, I just really like their coffee. And like, they have pictures of guns on their shit. It's like good advertising." I was like, "You know those are the assholes who like bailed out Kyle Rittenhouse, right?" and he's like, "Who the fuck is Kyle Rittenhouse." and I'm just like Jesus Christ. And, it was just like, super fucked up and like, we had like really long conversations about what like being an anarchist means to me. And you know, the more we talked, the more I realized our like end goal was exactly the same. He was like, just a farm boy from from South Central fucking Canada who grew up on a fucking....what's that stuff called? I don't want to say the name of it cause I hate it. And there's another name for it. He's from a canola farm. And he joined the military when he was young. And he's like....I'm a pretty tall person. I'm like 6'2", and he's like three inches taller than me, built like a brick shithouse.Just look like the dude you don't want to run into as an anarchist in like a war zone wearing a fucking Black Rifle Coffee Company t shirt. But the more we talked, the more we were just like yeah, we just want to fucking help people. And like that's it. Like, I just don't care anymore. Like it basically came down to everyone in our group wanted to ease some suffering that was happening at the behest of like, fucked up agitators who were acting on like imperialist like logic, you know? And yeah, that's basically what it all boiled down to. So, like I went there as an anarchist trying to support anarchist endeavors....and because they were helping just normal people, right? And and then it just turned out like, you know, circumstances change. They didn't...like multiple groups didn't want any more foreigners. You know, I was never given explanations as to why....Someone said it was because my social media presence was too hard about going to Ukraine, and they didn't want people getting their spots blown up. But, I was like literally all I said is I'm going to Ukraine, bringing medical supplies to anarchists units. And if you want to donate, donate here. I gave zero information on what unit I was delivering to, where I was going, who my contacts were. It was like vague as possible to just get donations, so I could buy more tourniquets. That's like all I was doing. That's that's the most explanation I got, which never added up. Margaret 29:19 They must have had their own shit going on. There must have been like something that had happened recently or like something within the internal structure where they were like trying to hold on to their anti authoritarian unit within an authoritarian structure, you know? Agatha 29:34 Exactly. And I later found out like, once I was back from a couple runs, and the unit that had originally accepted me, and said no more was like, "Hey, we got a guy coming to Warsaw and he wants to meet you." And I was like, "Okay," and it was just like the most giant man I've ever met and he was just like, decked out in like fucking workout gear and he's like, "I'm coming from the gym and I only got an hour I'm going back to the gym. I'm with this unit. I'm on leave blah, blah, blah." And I guess what it was was like, you know, it was other foreigners who were in the group who were posting shit online they shouldn't have been, you know, and one example was, there was someone who posted a picture of themselves outside of a building being like "Training for the good fight," or whatever. And whatever fucking Russian like ops that we're monitoring social media saw a picture of the building, did a bunch of fucking research, found out where it was, what the building was, and fucking a missile strike happened and like 500 volunteers died or some shit. Agatha 30:39 It was like super fucked so like, I totally got it, but like, and I wasn't gonna argue with them, you know what I mean? I was like okay, I'll find something else to do, but like that's not me. And that's not what I'm doing, but like, whatever I'll try and help out some other way. So, I think that's the kind of shit that was happening that led to me not being invited into these like strictly anarchist groups, because I mean, you know, fucking anarchists. Everyone's like security culture. Like the feds are like bugging my phone because they want to know what dumpsters I'm hitting or whatever. You know what I mean? It's like... Margaret 30:39 Oh my god. Margaret 31:12 Only here, it's like they're actually throwing missiles at you. Agatha 31:15 Exactly. Exactly. So I was like, I get it but, like whatever, so I think that's really what it was and like I couldn't fault them for it. I was like whatever, but yeah, I'm just some like scumbag from America anyways. Like you don't know me. Like you don't know if you can trust me like. Sure, I have tattoos on my face, but like whatever. Like you know what I mean? Like yeah, so I got it but like, I don't know. I'm kind of rambling at this point. I'm gonna let you direct the conversation a little more. Margaret 31:39 No, no, I'm really curious about all of this kind of stuff, like I'm very curious and I think the audience will be curious about....I mean, even down to like how do people take you as this tall, you know, person who presents somewhat masculine, but often has a non masculine name, has face tattoos, doesn't have like, you know isn't like mister Mr. heterosexual cis man, but also is like a tough as fuck looking, like face tattooed punk, right? Like, what do people make of you? Like how did that go? Agatha 32:18 It just depended, you know, some people were just like, "Who the fuck is this guy?" Like? Yeah, cuz I mean, I do have a lot of visible tattoos, but just to like, give it some context. Like my tattoos are like of puppies and like, I have a giant heart on my throat. You know what I mean? They're not like tough guy tattoos. Aside, I have some air 15 magazines tattooed underneath a "Do not resuscitate," tattoo on my chest. My chest looks like some pre-schooler went to prison and got tattooed or something. It's like light hearted. There's like skulls and puppies and yeah, rifle parts and like a 'do not resuscitate,' banner and like shit, but like, that's not stuff people generally saw. But they'd see my heart tattoo on my throat and my shit on my face. And like my hands were all blacked out. And you know, people were either like...A good example is like, people either didn't say anything, or they'd be like...like, one time we were in Kyiv we're kicking this grifter who had gotten caught up in our shit out. We needed like five to six hundred litres of diesel that we had shoved in his van. We needed to get that out before we kicked him out. Because we knew he would just steal it from us. I mean, I found out the guy had gone through my phone when I was sleeping. There was like links to his aid organization to the like, PayPal link on my phone. Like my Safari was open. And it was like, please enter your Paypal password to donate to this group. And I was like, "Who the fuck is this group?" And then we realized it was this guy and we needed to kick his ass out. But like, whatever, we didn't know where to kick him out. Like we didn't know if he was gonna get violent with us. So we picked like a super populated spot and Kyiv which is where we were at the time. And we're like, "Meet us here," you know, "at this parking lot for this fucking train station." But the parking lot was closed. And, it was like, all the spaces were empty, but we couldn't get in, and there was this like drunk ass dude wearing a body camera in this little booth. And he was like....we just went up and we're like, "Hey, are you the one watching this parking lot right now?" And our interpreter could not understand a fucking word this guy was saying. He was so drunk. And it's like the farther east you go like, the more the dialects change, so like our interpreter was 18 years old from from Lviv. He had never been this far east, you know, which Kyiv isn't even that far. But like, you know, if you've never been to Kyiv really and you get there and then there's people from the opposite end of the country who you know, I mean, it's just like, there's a big disconnect with with local dialects. He could only you know, figure some shit out. And we eventually paid the guy like a bunch of grivna not to fucking, just do this deal real quick. We're like, "Hey, we'll give you this wad of cash. Just let us park here for like 20 minutes, this guy is going to meet us. We're going to move a bunch of shit around from Van to van, and then we'll be out of your hair," and he's like, "Alright, fine." But, he was like fucking hammered. And he would not leave us alone. And he was like, uncomfortable drunk where he was like in our faces, like breathing on us, asking us questions. And our interpreter was trying their best to like, fucking answer. And then it just got hot during the day, and I went to take my shirt off, and all my tattoos are black line work. They look like fucking prison tattoos. And this guy, I see him catch my eye as my shirts about to go over my head for a second. And I pulled my T shirt down real quick. And he's like, "Ah, prison." And I was like, "No, no, no, no, not prison," and he's like, "Prison." And I was like, "No, it's not prison," and the guy just wouldn't shut up about it. He just kept saying "prison" to me and like, give me the 'okay' sign with his hand. And I'm like, "No, dude," you know? So, it's like, it was like, stuff like that. And then other people just being like, "You're a fucking freak American? Are they all like you", kinda shit. it was just like, I don't know, it was super weird. I got some shit for it. But like, most people, like I would talk to them for five minutes. And they'd be like, "Oh, you're just a person who wants to like, do shit." You know what I mean? But then, the more I got into this shit, and the more I was like, getting deeper into the east of the country, like, it got like, less and less about personal identity and what you what you were presenting to the world, right? Like I am an assigned male at birth guy who's six foot two inces and like, I have tattoos everywhere. And I carry myself like, like, really confidently, because I'm a martial artist, and blah, blah, blah. I'm just like...and I don't take shit from people like...It just was like a little easier for me to get by. But like, I was with this really well known fascist unit, who was giving personal protection to this trans woman, who was in the east of the country and had been there for months. Like she had gotten fired from her news organization because she started using the term 'Orc' in her in her pieces, and they're like, "You're no longer unbiased." And she and she was like, "You can't be unbiased. If you've been out here," like, "These Russian soldiers are fucking pigs. Like, they're like, they're raping people. They're killing children. They're doing all sorts of shit. They're bombing schools. They're bombing hospitals, like, and all these people could just shoot their officers and come across the line with a white flag. And the Ukrainians would treat them fine, right? Like yeah, but they're not doing that they're doing what they're told. And they're being complicit in these atrocities, blah, blah, blah." So she was like just going around doing all these pieces and her personal protection unit was all these supposed fucking homophobic, you know, fascist pieces of shit and granted, I never got drunk with these guys. I didn't have beers with them. I don't know what they really think but, they thought what she was doing was important enough to like give her a pass, you know what I mean? And like protect her, and get her to these like places to interview these people. And that's the kind of like, shit I mostly ran into, was like, you know, you don't have to agree with me right now, but we have a goal in mind. And once the Russians are gone, fuck it. We'll figure out our differences later, but like right now, like were chill, and I got like pretty hopeful about it till I met this like, platoon leader in an infantry territorial defense unit who, after...we were bombed at one point our fucking vans got destroyed, and we were looking for a mechanic to fix our shit, so we could get out of the east of the country. And this dude who spoke perfect English came up to us and was like, "What are you doing? What are y'all doing?" We told them what was up and he was like, "I'll try and find a mechanic. I got a mechanic buddy, like right around the corner, blah, blah, blah." And then while we were waiting for a callback, me and him just like got some coffees and like, talked for a while it turns out, he's like, uh, you know, he was a fucking, like, a human rights activist who was a lawyer forever, and like, graduated college in '92, and started his own organization to help like, LGBTQ refugees from like Belarus and shit, you know? And I mean, he was like, super fucking cool. Yeah. And the guy just eventually was like, "Yeah, I went to school at a military accredited college. So when I joined the territorial defense units, they're like, "You're an officer. You're, you're in control of a whole platoon,"" and he like, tried so hard to convince them that he was not their guy. Margaret 39:44 That he has the wrong platoon. Agatha 39:46 Yeah, he's like, "No, dude, I don't know how to fight blah, blah, blah. These are all like seasoned infantry men that I'm supposed to be...." So he's like, "I just fucking started listening to the most experienced dudes in my company and like, like, let them decide basically," and then, but like I got talking to him, I was like, yeah. You know, I introduced myself to him as my birth name. And he's like, yeah, you know? And then we started talking and it became apparent that he was not straight and all this other shit. And I was like, "Yeah, like, we've been working with this one group," and he's like, "Oh, yeah, they're bad news, you know?" And I was like, "Are they, though? Because like, they've shown me to be like, pretty decent to like, a lot of marginalized folks. As far as I can tell. I don't know." Yeah. And I was like, "I go by Agatha in the states and like, my crew calls me Agatha. But like, I do feel scared enough to not introduce myself as Agatha to the people in this unit, because they're, they're staunchly fascist, right? Like, you know, they, they're not into it." and they're like quick like without missing a beat they're like, "Oh, yeah, no, do not introduce yourself to these motherfuckers as Agatha. They're like, they did get rid of a lot of antisemites, they did get rid of a lot of overt racists, but there's like homophobia is still a huge problem in the Ukrainian military and population in general. It's very conservative. And so like, he like really opened my eyes that like, I was like, "Yeah, we're all in this together. Like, who gives a fuck your political affiliations? You know?" And then he was quickly like, "Yeah. No, people still disappear all the time during wartime. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, watch your fucking ass and like, keep doing what you're doing. But like, don't get too comfortable with these people." And it was just like....It was hard because like, I fucking was just feeling good about, working with people of different ideological backgrounds. And it felt good to just feed people and have this shared goal. And then just to be like, brutally reminded that, like, that's not actually the case. And it could get backwards really quick. You know what I mean? If I like yeah, said the wrong thing to the wrong person. Like, I have like an antifascist action pin on my hat. It's just like, you know, the little two black flags. It says "Anti-fascist action." He's like, he's like, "I wouldn't wear that, you know, I just wouldn't. you know, and I was like, "Okay." I listened to the guy, you know, he's fucking awesome. And I like, kept in touch with the dude through Telegram, and it was fucking on and then he got captured by the Russians, and he's still in captivity, and like, they're trying to act like he's a super Neo Nazi, because, like, that's what they do to human rights...and you know, people who are obviously leftist who get who get taken prisoner. But, you know, he's facing fucking 12 years in prison in the Donbas now, you know, and I'm just hoping, because he's an officer, they're going to do a prisoner swap, you know, but they're like not into it. And I, you know, if I had weird questions, I'd ask them, and then they'd always give me like, a nice response. And, you know, didn't treat me like an idiot American. They're like, yeah, "You just don't know the culture, blah, blah, blah." So, now what? Margaret 42:48 Yeah, that's, that's a really good...it's a sad, but it's an important counterpoint in this conversation we're having is to realize that like some of the civility between these units is probably short term, probably a veneer, and like, probably necessary veneer to drive out the invading force, but it makes sense to not to get too comfortable with it. And that's sad, but it's interesting because it's like, I hold, perhaps naively, that a lot of center Right, people really are distinct from far Right people, and like, have, you know, some really good ideas in terms of "Hey, what if we all left each other alone and sometimes took care of each other?" And it's like, easy for me to say as like someone who lives in a rural center Right area, but not a far Right area. And that's an important difference, you know? Agatha 43:45 Yeah, but I think that's like a pretty fair assessment too, of people out there. It's just it doesn't...you just can't count on that for long because even though like you could be a center Right, dude, and then you spend nine months in a fucking infantry unit full of fucking mutant goons who are espousing all this hate and it's easy to go from center Right to far Right, you know? Margaret 44:05 Yep. Yeah, no, totally. And it's...Yeah, fuck. Well, to go from that light subject to another really light subject. You mentioned that you were attacked, your caravan was attacked. Agatha 44:20 Yeah. Margaret 44:21 Do you want to talk about that? Do you want to say what happened? Is that right? Agatha 44:24 Sure. It's hard for me to just like, do it kind of like, you know, like, give you the synopsis. Like I kind of rant about it when I start going into details, because I start going into like lizard brain thinking about how I felt while I was there. So, with the caveat that like I want you to like be like, "rein it in," if you're like...if I'm given too many details, or if I'm going off on a fucking rant or whatever. Basically, we had done....we had been driving for like 48 hours on and off. We left Krakow. We got to Lviv. We dropped a bunch of shit. Picked up a bunch of shit. Got to Kyiv, dropped off a bunch of shit, picked up a bunch of shit, and this all started like insane. I was at the fucking ladies warehouse, loaded up like usual. And that grifter dude we were working with....so his thing was, he was working with the....What the fuck is their name? Not the Rotary Club. They're like something like that. The Lion something? Do you know what I'm talking about? Margaret 45:28 Yes, one of those like weird things. It's like not the Masons, but it's basically the Masons. Agatha 45:32 Yeah, t's not the Masons, but it's kind of like the Masons, and they do like whatever.....So, he, I don't know how he fucking did it got a bunch of funding for them, bought like two brand new vans and was out there, under the auspice that he was working for them. But he had all these weird things he was doing that he wouldn't share too much information on. And he had a Land Rover and it was one of those fucking British Land Rovers with a steering wheel on the wrong side, or the other side, not the wrong side. Margaret 46:01 When we're British people, we can say the wrong side. That's fine. Agatha 46:06 So, we're loading up all the shit. I'm waiting for the rest of my crew to get there. We got there a couple hours early. We get all loaded up. And I'm like, "Hey, person who runs the shit, like, what can I do to be of help while I wait for other people? Do you have shit that needs to get like moved around in the warehouse? You know, like, what do you need for me? She's like, "I need you to get this fucking guy off my back. He won't leave me alone. He wants to leave right now. And I told me, he's got to wait till the rest of the convoy gets here so you all get to the border crossing at the same time when you're supposed to. And you can give this paperwork to the guy who needs it." And I was like, "Okay." So the guy won't shut up. Eventually, they get in a huge fight. He says, "We're leaving," and looks at me. And I was like, "What?" and the lady's like, "Alright, good luck crossing the border," you know. And he's got his own van and he's like, "You're gonna drive this Land Rover full of shit by yourself. And you're just gonna follow me to Kyiv where we drop this off to a unit of American volunteers who are all ex military. And they're working on their own outside of the Ukrainian military. And they need a four by four vehicle to get in and out of like weird spots." And I was like, "Okay, fine." And then. So, I call the main planner of my group and I'm like, "Yo, dude is trying to be sketchy. He got in a fight with Lady. They're at each other's throats. He just wants us to leave. She wants us to get the fuck out of there just so she doesn't have to deal with like, this, like sketchy male bodied person yelling at her. She just doesn't need this, you know?" And he's just like, "I'm so sorry to do this to you. But like, just go with him. Just like get out of there with him, like, help him out. We need his van space once we hit Kyiv because we have more supplies than we can bring to Kharkiv in the space we have. So, I was like, "Okay, fine, whatever." And this guy like we eventually....She looks at me, she gives me a big hug. And she says, "I'm so sorry about this." And I was like, "Sorry, about what?" And then she looks at the guy and she's like, "Have fun crossing the border," and handed him a thing of papers and like was like, "See you guys." And then she's just like, "Please stay safe, Agatha." And I was like, "Okay." And and then I was like, I don't know what's going on. This dude throws a radio on my lap. I had never used a fucking CB radio at this point in my life. And he's just like, he's like "Try to keep up." And then he like fucking takes off on me. And I was like, What the fuck, and I'm like, racing to keep up with him. But, he's passing all the semis on the highway and I'm driving a right handed vehicle. I have to get all the way in the other lane to see if there's oncoming traffic, which is sketchy as fuck. I have never driven one of these things. It's still like normal driving lanes, you know what I mean? It's just a different driving side on the car. And it just was like the most stressful thing that's ever happened to me. For four hours trying to keep up with this guy. And then we finally get to the Ukrainian border. We're well outside that window of time she told us to get there. And he's like, "Don't worry, let's skip the line. Let's drive on the outside of the line in this like break down lane and get up to the gate and I'll get us through." And I was like, "I don't think that's gonna work, bro." And he's like, "Whatever." We get all the way up there. I'm still sitting in the car. I see him arguing with the border guard. The border guard's just pointing to the back of the line and then I'm like, "Fuck," and then eventually he's like, "Oh, we gotta try again blah blah blah." And he like turns around and we go...we do this like three times. He argues with three different border guards. And eventually we just have to sit in line for like eight fucking hours like Lady told us we were gonna have to do if we didn't fucking wait and he's all griping about it and blah blah. Yeah. And I'm just like I want to be like, "I fucking told you so." I don't like this guy already. He's like, super macho, has no regard for other people's emotional like capacity for anything and it's just about him and blah blah blah and he's got to get this vehicle to this unit or they're fucked and blah blah blah. We finally get through. He does the same shit, and I don't know if you know anything about Ukrainian roads, but they are that was fucked up roads I've ever seen in my life. Like, before the war. Like there's just like...they are fucked up. It's like the main highways are just packed with potholes that like, are just so devastating when you hit them. You're like, Oh my God, and like, he's just flying down this highway and like, he's like, "Keep up," like I keep hearing in the radio get more and more staticky. He's like, "I can't see you back behind me. Like keep up. Blah, blah, blah." And I was like, "Dude, you're going too fast. Blah, blah, blah. We do this for a whole day. And we get to Lviv and then whatever....I missed a detail. It wasn't Kyiv we were going to deliver this vehicle to. It was Lyviv, which is much closer to the border. We get we get to Lviv, and he's like, "We gotta meet this fucking dude, and hand off this fucking vehicle. And I was like, "Okay, fine, whatever." We finally get to this gas station. And there's these two dudes dressed in fatigues with their weapons out, like totally out of place, and they're holding gas cans. And he's like, "There's my dudes." And I was like, "Okay." Margaret 51:16 From the Lions Club or whatever? Agatha 51:18 Yeah, yeah. Well, no. He didn't tell me how he knew these guys. He alluded to the fact that he was in Afghanistan for a while working with Blackwater motherfuckers doing the same shit, but just equipping Blackwater units like not other stuff. So, I was like, alright, this dude's got sketchy friends. Whatever. Turns out this dude doesn't know the fighter at all. They met through the internet. He's not donating this vehicle. He's selling it to them and then fucking dudes like all sketched out because he looks at this Land Rover and is like, "So, this thing's good to go. It's all like mechanically sound?" And dudes like "Yeah, it's good. I had a mechanic look at it and everything in Poland blah, blah, blah." And I was like, "Yo," I could not shut up. I was like, "Yo, I drove this thing from fucking Krakow and it is not sound. Like you at least need new tie rod ends." Like I'm a proficient mechanic. "I was like, You need new tie rod ends and or like fucking drag link for your steering unit. And like, I don't know if you've looked at the back hubs, but like, they are rusted to fuck, like, Good luck getting the rotors off of the hubcap kind of shit. You know what I mean?" And he's like, "Well, what the fuck, I can't use this dude, we already paid you. I told you this was to get infantry units into hot zones, to do some sketchy shit. And to get out. Like, you told me this thing was going to be mechanically sound, and it just wasn't and like, blah, blah, blah." And I still had my whole kit from when I thought I was going to use my time there fighting. So, I feel bad for this guy. And I was like, "Hey, do you guys need any like, PPE or anything for one of your members of your unit? Like, he's like, "Yeah, the Russians just overran our base. And we lost everything. Some of our dudes are wearing jeans and sneakers." And I was like, "Okay, I got like, three sets of BDUs. I got a pair of combat boots. I got knee pads. I have a fucking thermal imaging camera. I have weapons sights. I have, like, you know, weapon attachments," all this shit. And he's like, "Oh, fucking A. Thank you so much." And he's like, you know, "Fuck this dude. I don't know how I got mixed up." I was like, "Whatever, just take all my shit. And we're gonna get out of your hair. I'm so sorry this happened. Yeah, blah, blah, blah." We get to Kyiv. We kick them out like I told you we did with a drunk dude. And then. And then like, another day later, we finally ended up in Kharkiv. We get rid of all our shit. Margaret 53:32 Okay, how much of this is lizard brain? I'm just... Agatha 53:35 A bunch. But I'm I'm at the point now it's starting to matter. Margaret 53:40 I appreciate that you're telling like a hitchhiking story. So it's like, it's very relatable to me. Yeah, please continue. Sorry. Agatha 53:46 So, we're in Kharkiv. We've given up all our shit. We've re-supplied and done that shit like four times. We have one more delivery to do. And then we're going to head back to Poland. And.... Margaret 53:57 Wait, who you with at this point? This is the rest of...The rest of your crew has caught up with you at this point? Agatha 54:03 Yes, yes. The rest of the crew has caught up. They caught up with us after we handed off that vehicle to the unit. And they caught up with us in Kyiv. We did a bunch of drop offs. We did a bunch of pickups and then we all drove as a unit after we kick that dude out to Kharkiv, which is, I don't know. It's like 20 miles from the Russian border or something like that. I could be wrong. It's not far. I mean, while we were there, you could hear artillery going off in the background. Yeah. You know, whatever. So we have 75 IFAKs to deliver to this one particular unit who, we had another wealthy benefactor, those two were in contact, the unit and this wealthy benefactor, this wealthy benefactor said "I know these people who will deliver it to you," and that was us. So, we have 75 IFAKs. I don't know if you know what an IFAK is. Margaret 54:51 Yeah. Individual first aid kit. It's a trauma kit for gunshot wounds, for anyone who's listening. Agatha 54:56 Yeah, it's got a tourniquet. It's got some quick clot. It's got a chest seal. It's got like a aluminum brace, it's got all the shit you need to like, stop some bleeding for 20 minutes to hopefully get them to like a more well equipped place but... Margaret 55:08 They save a hell of a lot of lives. Agatha 55:10 They save so many lives and they're so important and like...So, we were delivering 75 of those. We're meeting this unit at this restaurant. It's one of the only restaurants open in in Kharkiv that we can find. There's like three Ukrainian families eating there. And we just start hearing artillery getting closer and closer to us. And we're like, "Fuck, this is getting scary." Like, we start feeling it in the table. Our glasses start shaking. And my friend with the Black Rifle Coffee shirt, he's like, "Fuck, they're bracketing us." And I was like, "What is that?" And he's like, "It's when you have a, you know, an end goal in mind of where you want to hit. And then you like launch a round of munitions. And through whatever means whether it be like drones or whatever you see where it hits you readjust your calibration on your aiming device, you launch another round. It gets closer and then you're getting closer to your target, right? Yes, I think they're bracketing us." The shit is getting closer and closer, because we're at the base of the Soviet monument. And it's like a 100 foot tall statue of a Ukrainian dude wearing like Russian combat gear from World War II and it's like, supposed to be a Soviet monument to people who lost their lives fighting the Nazis in World War II, but someone had climbed all the way up there and taped a huge Ukrainian flag to their to their gun and it was like...it just seemed like that's what they had to have been aiming for because it was like a big "Fuck you," to Russia, you know what I mean? And yeah, so we're like okay, and you know, we're trying to get our social media presence up so we can get more donation so we ended up with this fucking Tik Tok'er with 2 million followers with us. And he doesn't want anything to do with us most of the time. So, he got an Airbnb. We're getting bracketed. We're waiting for the.... Margaret 56:56 This sounds like a movie. You've got a Tik Tok guy with 2 million followers.... Agatha 56:59 It's insane. It was fuckinginsane and we're waiting for this military unit to come pick up the 75 IFAKs. We have our food boxed up. We're like as soon as we give these dudes this shit we're out of here. We're leaving Kharkiv. And then someone's like, my buddy, who's the main planner is like, "Yo, y'all need to go get dude, he's at an Airbnb, like fucking 10 blocks away." So, we're like, okay, so me and Canadian infantry dude get in a van and we start like going like 110 kilometers through the middle of Kharkiv literally shit blowing up all around us. We're trying to get to this fucking dude. And we finally get there. And we're like, "Where are you?" on the phone? We're like, "We're down here. Get the fuck in the van." He gets in the van. We throw him a fucking vest with like body armor and give him a helmet and we start racing back to the fucking restaurant and it's just like...there are just like artillery munitions going off all around us. it was fucking terrifying. And then we finally get to the park where this monument is that and we have to park, walk through the park itself to get to the restaurant where all the rest of our crew is at, right? So, we park our last two vans we have in the convoy. Me and Tik Tok'er get out. Dude I'm with gets out. Se start walking across the park and I mean even with....like people are just used to artillery going off in the city right, so there's like old people everywhere soaking up the sun on benches and shit like that and people just like ignoring it and then we get like about I don't know 30 minutes or 30 meters into the park and then all of a sudden I hear this explosion really close behind me. I turned around I see all the glass in our vans get shot out all at once. And then something blew up like right next to me and I lost consciousness. I woke up on the ground. Tik Tok'er was confused and like we both didn't know what was going on. I couldn't hear anything. All I heard was like the biggest like ringing in my ears I've ever heard. My chest hurt from the impact of like the sound wave hitting me. Agatha 59:10 Yeah, yeah, I couldn't breathe. I was just like freaking out. I just started like grabbing my body armor and seeing if there was like blood anywhere. I was like whatever, and then I realized I'm okay and then I'm like, "Fuck all the windows of the the restaurant that my buds were in are blown out and it's like fucking on fire. It was like....so I run over there. Buddy is trying to....military dudes trying to tell me to get back in the van. I was like "I'm not getting back in the van, like that things like destroyed and blah blah blah." And so I just follow him and we both run in and he's just like "Boys, boys, where are you?" and we hear them yelling from the kitchen and everyone that was in the the dining hall went to the kitchen and we're hiding behind this like knee wall and the military unit we were supposed to give this shit to was there and I was like "Fucking great. Like, there's someone who knows what they're doing." Yeah. And everyone's like, "Are you okay? Are you okay? Like, what's going on?" And Meantime, there's still rounds hitting all over the fucking place. And he's like...everyone's like, "What do we do? What do we do?" And I was like, "Yo, we got 75 IFAKs in the van right now. And there are people like hanging out with like, missing limbs and like, screaming, bleeding everywhere outside, like, we need to get out and try and help people. And I tried talking to the medic who was with the unit that we were meeting up and he just like, didn't understand me. The interpreter was having a hard time. They lost their shit, you know? Yeah, everyone's freaking out. And like, I'm just trying to get these people to follow me. I was like, "Just come to the park. Like, we know how to put tourniquets on. We know how to pack wounds, like, please, like, let's just do this." And everyone's like, I don't know." A few of the people in my crew were like, "Yeah, let's do it." And then the people of this unit, like pissed me off, they're like, "No, we should just hang out here till the artillery barrage stops." And I was just like, "Fuck you. I'm going." And then like me and four people went out. We ran to the vans, we fucking grabbed all these IFAKs and then we just like, dumped them on the ground and started ripping out tourniquets. And then we split off into different little teams and just started fucking tourniqueting people who were bleeding everywhere, like this one dude was like missing limbs and was just like screaming. It was like the most intense thing I've ever experienced. He ended up fucking dying. Like, it was just like, so nuts. And that went on for like, 25 minutes, 30 minutes. And, um, and my personal IFAK that I wore on my chest rig was like, that was the first one I ripped off, you know, and yeah, tourniqueted at this lady was bleeding heavily from her inner thigh and I was scared it was like a femoral artery or something. And, after like, 30 minutes, this ambulance shows up. And they're just creeping by the park. They're not stopping. And I was like, "Fuck," and I like, stopped what I was doing because I had treated everyone I could find at this point. And I was like, in like, crazy mode. I was like hiding under a tree that would provide me no protection from an artillery round, but I was like, freaking out and then I saw them ran up. I was like, "Yo, you guys gotta get out of here. There's people bleeding all over the place. Blah, blah, blah." And then the military dude, I realized the medic had never even opened his fucking med kit. He was just standing there with hi AK watching us like tourniquet up...watching us of civilians like tourniqueting up all these people, and then fucking whatever. They're like, as soon as the EMTs arrived, they eventually get out. They start tending to the people, we had been triaging. And then the military dudes just like, "Alright, we gotta get out of

Bo and Blake talk March Madness and Hawaiian shirts in the first hour of the show live in the mobile BankPlus Studio. The guys recap a tough loss for Chris Jans and Mississippi State as they fall by a single point to Pitt in the NCAA Tournament play-in game last night. Bo discusses the impressive season and disappointing loss for the Bulldogs in Jans first season. The guys recap the midweek baseball slate as MSU demolished Nicholls while Ole Miss took their first bad loss of the season at Jacksonville State. Blake takes a hard stance on why programs like Ole Miss and MSU should no longer schedule road games at small G5 schools. With Bo on location in Biloxi, Blake has fun at the fact that Bo is staying at Jimmy Buffett's Margaritaville on the coast. The guys debate whether or not Bo can become a "Hawaiian shirt guy" now that he's stayed at Margaritaville. Bo talks a little NFL free agency and what's next for Aaron Rodgers as he weighs retirement versus playing for the Jets. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bo and Blake talk March Madness and Hawaiian shirts in the SEC Insider Hit live in the mobile BankPlus Studio. The guys recap a tough loss for Chris Jans and Mississippi State as they fall by a single point to Pitt in the NCAA Tournament play-in game last night. Bo discusses the impressive season and disappointing loss for the Bulldogs in Jans first season. The guys recap the midweek baseball slate as MSU demolished Nicholls while Ole Miss took their first bad loss of the season at Jacksonville State. Blake takes a hard stance on why programs like Ole Miss and MSU should no longer schedule road games at small G5 schools. With Bo on location in Biloxi, Blake has fun at the fact that Bo is staying at Jimmy Buffett's Margaritaville on the coast. The guys debate whether or not Bo can become a "Hawaiian shirt guy" now that he's stayed at Margaritaville. Bo talks a little NFL free agency and what's next for Aaron Rodgers as he weighs retirement versus playing for the Jets. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Mississippi State basketball coach Chris Jans joins the show on the Farm Bureau guest line to talk about he and his Bulldogs going dancing. Coach Jans discusses what about this team made him think they could make it to March Madness. Coach Jans breaks down how he is preparing for Pitt and what it is like to prepare for a game in just 48 hours. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bo and Blake talk SEC baseball and the start of March Madness in the first hour of the show live in the BankPlus Studio. The guys recap a loaded weekend around the SEC as both Ole Miss and Mississippi State pick up big sweeps in the final weekend of non-conference play in baseball, while Ole Miss women's basketball and both men's and women's teams at MSU all qualify for the NCAA Tournament. The guys hit on the stars from the weekend for Ole Miss and MSU baseball and look ahead to the start of SEC play this weekend. Bo gives his thoughts on a record-setting first year for Chris Jans leading the Bulldogs basketball team, including just the second NCAA tourney berth in the last fourteen seasons for MSU. The guys talk about the expectations to start the season and how Jans and company have blown past them. Think you have what it takes to beat the experts? Test your basketball knowledge in the Out of Bounds March Madness Bracket Challenge for a chance to win incredible prizes from our partners. Code: Bounds https://fantasy.espn.com/tournament-challenge-bracket/2023/en/group?redirect=tcmen%3A%2F%2Fx-callback-url%2FshowGroup%3FgroupID%3D5443676&ex_cid=tcmen2023_clipboard&groupID=5443676&groupp=QnJvdW5kcw%3D%3D&inviteuser=ezgxMUE5MDYwLTZEMDQtNDg4My04RDVBLTlBODRDOEJCNkY4Mn0%3D&invitesource=clipboard Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bo and Blake talk SEC baseball and March Madness in the SEC Insider Hit live in the BankPlus Studio. The guys recap a loaded weekend around the SEC as both Ole Miss and Mississippi State pick up big sweeps in the final weekend of non-conference play in baseball, while Ole Miss women's basketball and both men's and women's teams at MSU all qualify for the NCAA Tournament. The guys talk a little March Madness history around the state and some of the deeper runs from the Bulldogs and Rebels. Bo gives his thoughts on a record-setting first year for Chris Jans leading the Bulldogs basketball team, including just the second NCAA tourney berth in the last fourteen seasons for MSU. The guys talk about the expectations to start the season and how Jans and company have blown past them. Think you have what it takes to beat the experts? Test your basketball knowledge in the Out of Bounds March Madness Bracket Challenge for a chance to win incredible prizes from our partners. Code: Bounds https://fantasy.espn.com/tournament-challenge-bracket/2023/en/group?redirect=tcmen%3A%2F%2Fx-callback-url%2FshowGroup%3FgroupID%3D5443676&ex_cid=tcmen2023_clipboard&groupID=5443676&groupp=QnJvdW5kcw%3D%3D&inviteuser=ezgxMUE5MDYwLTZEMDQtNDg4My04RDVBLTlBODRDOEJCNkY4Mn0%3D&invitesource=clipboard Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bo and Blake talk SEC baseball and basketball in the final hour of the show live in the BankPlus Studio. The guys start off talking SEC Baseball as Mississippi State is bouncing back and Ole Miss is looking good. Bo and Blake discuss Ole Miss hiring former Longhorn Chris Beard as their new head basketball coach. The guys debate if Mississippi State can make it past the first round of the NCAA Tournament and who the tournament villain is. Bo and Blake discuss what State needs out of Tolu Smith and others in the tournament. Mississippi State basketball coach Chris Jans joins the show on the Farm Bureau guest line to talk about he and his Bulldogs going dancing. Coach Jans discusses what about this team made him think they could make it to March Madness. Coach Jans breaks down how he is preparing for Pitt and what it is like to prepare for a game in just 48 hours. Think you have what it takes to beat the experts? Test your basketball knowledge in the Out of Bounds March Madness Bracket Challenge for a chance to win incredible prizes from our partners. Code: Bounds https://fantasy.espn.com/tournament-challenge-bracket/2023/en/group?redirect=tcmen%3A%2F%2Fx-callback-url%2FshowGroup%3FgroupID%3D5443676&ex_cid=tcmen2023_clipboard&groupID=5443676&groupp=QnJvdW5kcw%3D%3D&inviteuser=ezgxMUE5MDYwLTZEMDQtNDg4My04RDVBLTlBODRDOEJCNkY4Mn0%3D&invitesource=clipboard Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Episode Summary Brooke, Casandra, and Margaret talk about the war in Ukraine and how Russia is not doing great, the train derailment in East Palestine, anti trans bills, Adderall shortages and meth, the return of Big Chicken, long covid as potential auto immune disease, further bans on abortion drugs, drought, floods, earthquakes and the US's top priority: shooting million dollar missiles at balloons. Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Casandra is just great and can be found at Strangers doing awesome layouts, and Brooke can be found on Twitter or Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Next Episode A special episode will come out next week on March 17th on Surviving the Justice System. Transcript This Month in the Apocalypse: Feb. 2023 Brooke 00:15 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. This is the February-March installment of our segment, This Month in the Apocalypse and I'm calling it the February-March episode because we're recording in February and we're talking about February but you're going to be listening to it in March, most likely. I'm Brooke Jackson, and with me today, as usual are the quick thinking Casandra and the fast acting Margaret Killjoy. Casandra 00:38 I don't know if that's accurate. Margaret 00:42 Or at least fast talking sometimes, especially when I'm hyper. And today I'm hyper Casandra 00:46 half of what I'm going to talk about today is brain fog and how it impacts me. Brooke 00:51 Nice. Well, before we get into today's episode, we'd like to share a little something something from another one of the swiftly streaming podcasts on the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts. Casandra 01:17 And we're back. Cas, Margaret, how are you feeling today? Casandra 01:51 I just had my first sip of tea. Margaret 01:55 I have been doom scrolling so hard that I didn't sleep last night because of all the anti trans legislation. So I didn't sleep enough and then I ate a protein cookie and pretended like it was food. So I'm great. Casandra 02:07 And you don't do caffeine at all. Not even tea. Margaret 02:09 No, yeah, a bunch of sugar and protein in a cookie form is my equivalent of like making me immediately hyper. Casandra 02:18 Alright. Margaret 02:19 Because I don't fuck with caffeine. I'm straight edge, except for alcohol. Brooke 02:24 Well good, you should take all that energy and tell us some things. Margaret 02:29 Oh, okay, right. I'm first. Okay, February has been a big month for the apocalypse. The Apocalypse is coming in hard with a bunch of mostly really bad shit. I think that the biggest story, or whatever, the earthquake that happened in Turkey and Syria was really fucking bad. Everyone probably already knows this. As of when I'm recording it, the death toll stands at about 50,000 people in Turkey and Syria. Those numbers are still expected to go up. And a lot of it has to do with poverty and with buildings that are not built to withstand earthquakes. This is happening in a poor region. And that is absolutely affecting everything. I don't have as much information about that to relay, but I just feel like it's like the single most...like now I'm going to talk about the fucking balloons and I hate the fucking balloons. And I want people to know that like the earthquake is more important. But on February 14th, I think, I don't remember, I wrote on February 14, but you think I'd remember that was Valentine's Day. A surveillance balloon, there's a Chinese balloon and the US shot it down. It was a really actually big balloon and it probably included some surveillance equipment. China was like, "It's civilian." The US is like, "No, it was military." I'm not stressed about it because I expect the US government is surveilling me and I don't really give a shit if some other country...whatever, I don't fucking care. It may have been capturing cell transmissions and shit over the US. But then, of course, this sets off this like massive paranoia, where everyone's like, "Balloons are trying to get us. Those Chinese balloons." And the US like scrambled.... Brooke 04:20 I always knew it was going to be balloons. I've always said it, the balloons are coming for us. Casandra 04:22 Doomsday mechanism. Margaret 04:26 I mean... Brooke 04:27 it's the balloons. Clearly. Margaret 04:30 They are creepy. Actually. This is funny, my my dad is phobic of hot air balloons. I'm sorry to reveal this about you, dad. And because he was always like, "No, they're just there. They're on the horizon. They're creepy." Like he's not afraid of being in that. He's afraid of them like on the horizon. Casandra 04:46 One of my most traumatizing childhood moments was this hot air balloon show was like going over the neighborhood and I was spinning in circles staring upward watching them as one does and forgot that my mom had a whole like row of rose bushes. And then spent the whole afternoon having like rose thorns picked out of my ass. So, that's all to say that I don't think your dad's insane. Margaret 05:10 Yeah, so the US government scrambled a bunch of fighter jets to shoot down a whole bunch of other balloons, all of which, like the government is like, "We do not believe that they are surveillance balloons, but we don't know." And the reason that they're saying we don't know is because, well one they obliterated tiny balloons with missiles. So there's like, not a lot left. There's like like half a million dollar missiles being shot at these fucking things, one of which missed. They missed a fucking balloon over Lake Huron, and then it like, fell into the lake. And they're like, "No one was harmed." And I'm like, great, I feel so fucking good that the government is shooting missiles at the US. That makes sense. And so probably those balloons are like amateur weather balloons, like people like do this, where you're like, I'm gonna get a balloon and like, put a bunch of equipment on it and send it up into the sky. And it's cool, right? And because you can like see the stuff. And so fortunately, the US government is there to protect us against amateur weather and radio fans. Brooke 06:11 You know, you know, our friends over that other podcast have been saying we should nuke the Great Lakes. So I think this was just a trial run to... Margaret 06:20 Fuck, Robert Evans is like actually the one that got them to shoot missiles. Casandra 06:24 Cancel Robert Evans. Margaret 06:25 Yep. All right. Yeah. Or he's a prophet. Brooke 06:32 That's what I was gonna say, Margaret 06:34 Speaking of Prophets, but actually, in both mench versions of that word, there was a massive disaster on February 3, in East Palestine [rhymes with Springsteen], Ohio, because it's not pronounced Palestine [rhymes with Stein], in which a train carrying a bunch of toxic shit had overheated wheel bearings, and derailed. It passed like a bunch of sensors that were like, detect overheated stuff. And then like on the last one, it was like, "Hey, you're overheating," and then it crashed. This overturned 11 Toxic cars at a...a bunch of more cars overturned, but 11 of them were full of toxic chemicals, including vinyl chloride, but also a bunch of other shit. 115,000 gallons of vinyl chloride, were let loose. And then they were like, "Slright, well, we better set the shutter on fire," I'm not actually even going to like talk shit on the fact that they set on fire. It might have been the best thing that they could do in that circumstances. There is a lot of stuff that is implying that the government and you know, Norfolk Southern and all that are like downplaying the degree to this disaster. It is a massive disaster, it is a big fucking deal. And the people involved should be held accountable. And there's like, all kinds of stuff about how a lot of the deregulation and of course, you know, the fact doesn't help that Biden like stopped a railroad strike for better safety conditions, because that's mostly huge part of what people are striking for. And they absolutely are like, the numbers are trending upwards. They're like, "It's not a big deal." And they were like, "Hey, there's a bunch of dead fish." And people were like, "There are 4000 dead fish." And they had a very specific number. It might not have been that number was like 300, 800, 3,850, or something. As of this morning, when I double checked, they're up to 43,000 dead aquatic animals. That's 10 times the previous claim. I understand why people are skeptical of these claims. They're probably not forever chemicals. These are the sorts of chemicals that will break down. However, no one knows the long term effects of the exposure that people have already had to these chemicals. And it's fucked up. Norfolk Southern stock has dropped, but not as precipitously as you would might like. It's not even as low as it was last October, just like took a dip. So buy the dip, everyone go out and buy....don't do this. Don't go out and buy stock. Okay, that's what I know about that. Other people might know more about it. Casandra 08:56 Oh, I was just gonna say that.... Margaret 08:57 Next. Okay go ahead. Casandra 08:58 I was just gonan say that the EPA seemed pretty like, firm with them, which I appreciated. It wasn't the response I expected. Oh, were you wagging your finger at me? Or like...they were like. Brooke 09:12 I was being the EPA. Yeah. Because we're in a point of visual medium here, right with a podcast. So, everyone can see me doing that. Casandra 09:19 I watched the recording and the guy was like, "If y'all don't do this up to our standards, we will do it and then bill you and not just like, you'll get the bill, but we'll bill you a certain number of times the amount that it actually cost us as a penalty." Yeah, it's something I don't know. Margaret 09:37 I mean, that's good. Yeah. Oh and then the other thing, when I when I lead with the transition of Prophets in both sense of the word. About a week before this disaster, I watched the Netflix movie "White Noise" based on the 1980s novel called "White Noise," in which a toxic chemical train spill it In East Palestine, Ohio happens and fucks everything up. And it fucks with my head, just straight up. It fucks with my head that I watched a movie about a natural disaster and then... not a natural disaster, a manmade disaster. And then a week later, it happened in the same town of 5000 Fucking people. Or 4000 people. Casandra 10:20 Maybe, you're not a prophet, maybe actually. Your brain just determines all of reality. Margaret 10:29 Oh, no, I'm not a prophet. No, no, no, no, I don't think this is me. Casandra 10:31 I think that what happens in your head is then what happens in the outside world. That's more plausible. Brooke 10:39 Yeah, that seems right. Casandra 10:40 So, don't think anything.... Margaret 10:42 This is a really good thing to tell someone who lives alone. Brooke 10:46 I mean, it clearly anyone who reaches a certain level of podcasting, fame then develops a power to cause things to happen. Yeah, that's what we're saying here. Margaret 10:57 Good to know. And then everyone lived in a happy anarchist society for all times in which everyone was equal, except Margaret was a little bit more equal and got like twice as much tea in the morning. Casandra 11:06 You don't like tea. We just went over this. Margaret 11:10 Yeah, well, I shouldn't have more of something I want. That would be fucked up. Casandra 11:14 This is the like weirdest Catholic version of anarchist Utopia I've ever heard of. Margaret 11:23 Hi, I'm Margaret Killjoy. Alright, so it's speaking of other bad shit that happened this year, or actually, well, okay. The thing that happened in February is is the one year anniversary of the Ukraine war. As currently stands, it's fallen out of the news, which means that no one is dying anymore, and everything is fine. Except that... Brooke 11:47 PBS still does it. So to just throw a tiny amount of credit over there. But yeah... Margaret 11:54 Yeah, well actually it's funny because people will talk mad shit about mainstream news and for good reason. But like, overall, I think mainstream news is a little bit better of a job than like Twitter at like, staying attached to stories over time, rather than just like chasing the clicks, which is fucking saying something because that is what mainstream news was notoriously bad at. I just think social media is even worse at it. On the other hand, it's not the job of the random Twitter person to....Okay, so, the Ukraine war is largely out of stalemate. As stands Russia holds 17% of Ukraine, an area twice the size of Italy. It's less than they controlled at the beginning of the war by a decent amount, and specifically, almost all their holdings are in the east. And it's been like slowly being chipped away at overall is kind of the general thing. Most foreign fighters left after a few months, it went down, there's 20,000 foreign fighters, mostly like vets of various other countries who are like, "Well fuck an invasion." And a lot of people were like, I think actually a lot of people were like, "Well, I fought in all of these like evil US wars, because they have like worked for the US government. Here's a just war," and people went like chasing a just war, right. It's down from about 20,000 foreign fighters to 2000 foreign fighters as the war drags on. China is calling for peace talks right now. And more might have happened by the time you hear this, like this is like news from yesterday and today, and their position is...like I mean overall they're trying to present themselves as neutral, but like overall they're like, "This is a war of Western aggression." You know? "This is a war of you know a Ukraine shouldn't dress like that if it didn't want to get attacked." They've four times abstained....Thank you for laughing at my off color joke. And yeah, I mean, because that is what it comes down to this idea of like, we had to invade you because you are getting too close to our borders with your power or whatever. Like, you can't fucking justify invading another country for that reason. Casandra 14:03 They're opposing US imperialism, Margaret. Margaret 14:06 Yeah, they do. Casandra 14:07 NATO! Margaret 14:10 Yeah. Yeah. And that's China's position. They're with the US tankies. Or rather US tankies are with them. They have four times abstained from voting in the UN votes to ask Russia to withdraw its troops it's possible also that China's like trying to get in....and this is like everyone. This is the actual imperialism from my point of view about all this is everyone calling for these peace talks a lot of it is that they're like they want in on the economic reconstruction aka they want like their economic interest in the capitalism to to do their thing just to China it's slightly more state capitalism in the US it's slightly more.. Casandra 14:46 China's not capitalist Margaret What are you talking about? Margaret 14:48 Oh, right. Sorry. I Forgot. They want to bring their peoples army... and I Love that It's like the tankies pretending that Russia is fucking commie...anyway. The number of Russian soldiers Ukraine is killing is going up, which, you know, whatever, fuck them. 824 Such Russian soldiers a day are dying in Ukraine in February, which is the highest rate since the invasion started. Between 180,000 and 270,000 Russians have died in the war in the past year. And for comparison, Russia is this huge place. And we think about like how Russia just like, bled people during World War II, you know. Russia is only half the population of the United States. And so this is...so when you think about percentage wise, if you think about, it's like, you know, the equivalent of half a million people dying in one year in a dumb fucking war. About 100,000 Ukrainian soldiers have died. They claim that 13,000 of their soldiers have died. Vaguely neutral observers from the outside of claims that 100,000 have died, which is like, their, their like, kill rate, oh, God, I'm not even going to pretend to put this in video game terms. That's fucked up. And also another 30,000 or so civilians, Ukrainian civilians have died. Like directly, tons more displace. Everything's fucked up. It's war. I haven't been able to get a recent number for the total number of arrests in Russia. But, it's like worth really understanding how much a lot of Russians do fucking not want this to happen. There were 15,000 people arrested protesting against the war and like the first month of the war alone, and there's thousands more at various other times, but I wasn't able to find a total count. And, you know, in case anyone needs any reminding that nationalism is garbage. between half a million and a million Russians have fled, rather than be conscripted and fight in this stupid fucking bullshit. And 200 or so Russians are actively fighting for Ukraine. There is no out good outside guests. That is a guess from one of these Russian fighters. And they all have different reasons. I am aware of their being Russian anarchists. I was not able to find more information about that. Most of the anarchists that I know from other countries I think are more involved in directing solidarity goods, except for Belarus.. A lot of anarchists fighters in Ukraine. Anyway, of the 200 or so fighters, the the one I was able to find the specific motive for he's is doing as his Christian duty to stop invasions. And let's see, okay, almost done with the Russian war thing. Dutch intelligence reports that Russia is mapping power and gas infrastructure in the North Sea for potential attack. This came out like yesterday. So who knows what will happen with that. And then it's also kind of worth knowing there's like all of these, like anti war rallies happening around the war around the world. And most of them are like about trying to stop the Russian invasion of Ukraine, right? They're like, "Hey, this war is fucked up, aka Russia is fucked up." But in the US, we get a different kind of anti war movement, we get an anti war movement that's a weird collection of tankies and Nazis... Casandra 18:20 Margaret, that never happened! Margaret 18:21 ...coming together like a Molotov-Ribbontrop Pact to say stop the war machine. Casandra 18:28 Stalin is the whole reason..... Margaret 18:34 Yeah, no, I know. Casandra 18:38 The reason the Nazis were defeated soley was because of Stalin, therefore, you know, the Soviet Union never never ever could have allied with the Nazis, even though we have historical records that it did blah, blah. Margaret 18:53 Yeah, like at the beginning, Russia was like, "Hey, allies, can we hang out with you, Germany's looking real weird." And the allies were like, "I'm not sure." And so then Russia was like or USSR was like, "Hey, Nazis, can we hang out with you? We know bad shits about to happen," and they were like, "Yeah, but totally," and the USSR sent them tons of aid, just literal material, tons of aid. And collectively, they mapped out which countries they were going to invade together and they invaded Poland together...It's Poland. Am I getting that right? And then, Germany was like "JK, surprise attack." And then the USSR was like, "Okay, we're against you." And then fucking millions of Russians died to defeat the Nazis and that needs to be understood and respected. But like Stalin was like making them...there's like, reports from survivors...This is totally what this episode is about. There's like reports from survivors who were like forced to charge Nazi tanks bare handed. And so like, the high numbers of Russian dead wasn't because Stalin ruled. The high numbers is because Stalin fucking sucks. Anyway. Casandra 20:08 And there's also the whole like, the line that like the USSR saved with the Jews or whatever, when, which was just like totally. Anyway, we won't talk about how Jews were treated in the USSR. Margaret 20:23 When they signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact....Yeah. Anyway, USSR is not modern Russia, but there's an anti war movement. So that's okay. That's Ukraine. Now, the trans laws, the thing that has me up all night. Yesterday, I believe the Tennessee House passed a bill. And now this was misrepresented. And I accidentally misrepresented this too, because I trusted a Twitterer who trusted a news article from a mainstream source that, okay, a Tennessee House did pass this bill. And by the time you're listening to this, probably their fucking Senate and Governor have signed off on it. But the article was like, "And now it goes up to the governor." It doesn't it goes to the Senate first. And a lot of really shitty laws passed the House, but not the Senate in like, any given place. So there's like, still hope. But I'm not full of fucking hope because a lot of these types of laws are passing right now. The type of law I'm talking about, this is an anti drag law. And these anti drag laws are similar ones proposed around the country and all the details are a little bit different. But the overall idea is that if anyone who is a male or female impersonator, AKA a crossdresser, aka, me living my fucking life, or a drag performer, if they perform, and if it's like, in any way, like...some places it's just like literally if they perform, or exist in public, and another one's the Tennessee laws a little bit like, and they perform in a way that has any kind of like, sexual titillation, or whatever then that has to be the venue that is now a strip club legally, or like, needs to be a like 18+ adult entertainment, cabaret or whatever the fuck Casandra 22:15 Like who's deciding if something's sexual? Margaret 22:19 Uh huh. And it is. First cops, then judges, Two groups I trust to the bottom of my....nothing. Margaret 22:35 Or the parents who call the cops. Brooke 22:41 Don't forget about he mob. Margaret 22:42 Yeah, no, totally. They're the first step in it. So that is the literal criminal criminalization of being trans in public. Casandra 22:45 Yeah, there are nine anti trans laws on the books right now in Oregon. Yeah. Margaret 22:52 Yeah. There's 14 other states with similar anti drag laws in the works, including Oklahoma, Texas, Arizona, and Idaho. And I just didn't find the full list, I found people like a couple different places giving like short versions of the list. South Dakota did just pass a law like not just the house or whatever, but like it's fucking signed, that forces trans youth to detransition. And Utah passed a law against trans youth also, very recently, or against allowing trans youth to transition. But, I don't believe it forcibly detransitioned. I believe that this one in South Dakota is the first one to force detransition, which from my point of view, pretty much means that trans...families with trans children who can't afford to move are going to have their trans kids run away or kill themselves. Just like, frankly, I am not recommending. I am recommending if you're a trans youth to in a place that is affected by this to get in touch with community to try and help you and your family get out of that situation. That is what I'm directly recommending. But, the the reason that doctors believe in gender affirming care for trans youth is that it lowers the rates of death substantially. Oklahoma is currently considering a bill to ban gender affirming care to adults, anyone under the age of 26. Brooke 24:22 Fucking Oklahoma. Casandra 24:22 I can't remember which bill i was reading, but I was reading about one that was worded in such a way where gender affirming care also ended up including things like hormones for ciswomen dealing with menopause, like it was so broad sweeping that like, I just don't think people consider the broader implications. You know what I mean? Margaret 24:41 I don't know whether this one was that one, but I...it wouldn't surprise me and I feel like people pass laws like that all the time. And then just like, no one's going to actually stop cis women from accessing hormones from menopause, you know, or like, you know, people dealing with prostate cancer often take hormones and you know, testosterone blockers and things like that, and like...All the shit is overbroad, like crazy, but not in a way where I feel like oh, it's overbroad, and it gets struck down like no, it's gonna get targetedly used against trans people against, the Left. And 5% of US people in the US who are under the age of 25 identify as trans or like nonbinary in some way, compared to point .5% of the rest of the population as a whole. And I would like to...don't make me tap of the sign of the that graph of chart of left handedness as a chart of left handedness. Like once they stopeed. Once they started letting people be left handed, it goes up and caps itself, you know. And every major medical association in America recognizes that gender affirming care for youth saves lives. That is not a...I assume everyone listening to this already knows the shit, but it's like worth fucking knowing. This is not a like, medically contested issue. You know, this is like, and I'm not like, "Man, you know, who I trust immediately, the medical institution, they always have our backs." But, they do in this case, because they're not fucking... Oh, God. That's what I've got to talk about this week. Brooke 26:20 Jon Stewart did a good piece that was on gender affirming care that maybe everyone's already seen, because it was a little while ago, but was, you know, citing those...Just what you're exactly what you're saying, Margaret about every every major medical organization in the US. Margaret 26:38 And honestly has been one of the only cispeople I've seen talking about it in public. The silence from cispeople has been deafening. And if your cis and listening to this, I'm hoping that if you've been silent about it, I'm hoping that the reason you've been silent about it, is because you're afraid of taking up too much of the conversation. Because we do have this way of talking about social issues right now, where people are afraid to talk about issues that don't directly affect them. And I think that that is a misstep. And that it will take cis people talking about this angrily, before anything will change. Because, when it's just trans people, and sometimes their immediate families who are showing up to protest, everyone's going to be like, "Well, fuck those pedo whatever," fuck, whatever. Fucking bullshit, you know. So from my point of view, part of the reason this keeps me up at night is not because the Nazis want to kill me, they've wanted to kill me for a long time, they've sent me letters to this effect, with like, my parents address in it, you know, it's that when I don't feel supported, is when I feel the most lost about all of this stuff, just frankly. And so sometimes like that support is like, like, "Margaret's guide to being supportive to your trans friends," is like, like, sometimes, like random people messaging me to be like, "I see you, you're valid." I'm like, that's great. I don't I don't need that from strangers. What I need from strangers is for people to talk to the people, they're around and say shit about this, you know, I have a, I know I'm valid. I have a supportive family. And I have a supportive network of friends and all of that, you know? Yeah, sorry, this is...I mean, all of these things that we're going to talk about are big deals. But you know, this one affects me very directly. Brooke 28:45 Oh, no, I appreciate you saying more about it, because I was gonna ask follow up questions about like, you know, showing support and good ways to do that. So thanks for talking about that. Margaret 28:55 Be fucking angry. Like, you know, and it's like, and this stuff like, it's also all part of misogyny. Like, because people want to control people's bodies. And so transmen are affected by this because they're, like, leaving womanhood behind and that's bad or whatever. And then of course, transwomen are like, the reason that people don't want us to exist is a weird protect the women thing, right? And so like, when cis women are loudly like, "No, I would rather have this transwoman in the bathroom with me then like I don't know someone who's like peeking under stalls to make sure no one has a penis." Like people being loud about that kind of support. There's this brilliant video of thus person who I believe is a cis woman who's like getting gender policed by a Karen in a bathroom. Casandra 29:47 I saw that Margaret 29:48 And refuses to answer whether or not she has a dick. Yeah, it fucking...that gives me hope. So, I like. Casandra 30:00 That's like reverse Karen. Brooke 30:02 I just bookmarked that so I can watch it after Casandra 30:05 We should start a Nazis know our parents' address club. Margaret 30:17 And then like...it's funny I try not to talk too much about my family on this podcast, I guess, but then again the Nazis already know where they live. Like my dad's fucking ex marine with anger management issue who loves this trans daughter? How's do they think this is gonnna go? Casandra 30:35 I mean, my situation, my parent's would've been like "Whatever." Margaret 30:41 Yeah, okay, fair. I'm sorry. Casandra 30:43 Okay, who's next? Brooke 30:48 Okay. Can we talk about happier things? Margaret 30:54 What podcast are on? Casandra 30:57 I genuinely can't remember who's next. Is it you, Brooke? Brooke 31:03 Allegedly. Although, if it's something you have segues better for, I'm all for it. I had a good segue from the war thing. But then we then we start talking about the trans issue and I don't know where to go from there. Casandra 31:13 I think the world is shit. There are lots of them. They're diverse, shitty things to talk about, you know? Margaret 31:18 Well, and even the war thing, it's like, you know, what, Ukraine is fucking holding on a year later. That is a fucking positive story. It is a terrible, horrible story. But they're still fucking there. You know, like people thought Ukraine wasn't going to be a country by last summer. Brooke 31:36 That's a really good point. Well, speaking of war, wars, the war on drugs. Drugs. Adderall. I did it you're welcome. We did a, I think our August episode or something like that we did a roundup on like shortages, things that were in shortages. And I know we talked about Adderall at one point and being in shortage and why. And that started like last summer sometime I think August or so it was when people started talking about it. The FDA or DEA, I can't remember which one it was that came out with the announcement. I think the the FDA came out like late October and said, "Hey, we have an Adderall shortage." And everyone said, "We fucking know we've been dealing with with this for two or three months now." And it's gotten worse than it's been in the news again, recently, because of just how much worse it has gotten. We talked about it previously, we talked about some of the reasons why the shortage was happening. And part of it is a production issue. It's a very controlled substance. So, it's not like manufacturers can just start pumping out a whole bunch more. And not just like the creation of the Adderall. But the ingredients that go into it are controlled substances as well, so they can only make so much of that. Allegedly, there's enough supply of the base ingredients that we shouldn't have this shortage. So.... Casandra 33:10 Sorry, I'm stupid about Adderall, is it it because meth. Is that the....? Okay, sorry. Brooke 33:18 That's where I'm going with this, but yeah, that's that is that. That is part of the reason it's such a controlled substance, because Amphetamine is, you know, main ingredient, it's it's people often refer to Adderall as being, you know, legal meth, or prescribed meth. Casandra 33:33 I know nothing. Wow. That's wild. Brooke 33:42 So, there have been some reports of folks that haven't been able to get their Adderall and have, in fact, turned to meth in order to get the substance they need, and there's not a good sense of how like widespread this is, versus, you know, a couple of instances that hit the news, you know, there's at least one story of somebody who died in an ER, because of meth. And they said they were taking the math because they couldn't get their Adderall prescription. And, you know, meth, you know, historically causes no problems to the brain and doesn't make people say things that are wacky and untrue. So we can trust that story. But, that's what's happening. But, the fun conspiracy theorh where I'm going with this that's floating around is that the government is purposely restricting the manufacture of Adderall to force people to turn to meth to perpetuate the war on drugs. So there you go. Conspiracy theories are fun. Margaret 34:43 Wait, So this is a new conspiracy. Okay. How the balloons tie in? Casandra 34:48 Yeah. Margaret 34:49 Is that where moving it? They're getting the Adderall out of the country? Casandra 34:52 They're delivering it. If we would have let them come in farther, they would have just released it because everyone wants Adderall. Margaret 34:58 Oh, yeah. That's sort of true...the part where everyone wants Adderal. Casandra 35:03 I do not. Margaret 35:06 Yeah. No, I don't want Adderall. I'm hyper off a cookie. Brooke 35:12 That's part of the issue is that the prescriptions for Adderall increased 27%. From 2019 to 2022. There were like 35 million prescriptions in the US, which is a fuck ton, in 2019. And then it went up to like 45 million by 2021 or 22. And I mean, shocker. Everybody's stuck inside with a pandemic. Like we overprescribed, that are all for sure. And I and that is not to say there's not people who genuinely need it out there. And I don't mean to bash anybody's use of of that prescription. But you know, one of the articles that I was reading they, you know how news reports like to pick a human interest story to tell their story, they were talking about this 16 year old female in Utah, who's like in all of the AP classes, honors classes is getting ready for college and how stressed out she was and obsessed with perfection, and she couldn't get all her stuff done. And then she got an Adderall prescription. And, and now she's able to get all her homework done, and she's acing all their classes, and it's ready for college and blah, blah, blah. And it's like, well, yeah, I mean, you just gave her gave her amphetamines. Casandra 36:36 I feel like there's a misuse potential. Like, the people I know, who have ADHD and take Adderall, it doesn't impact their system that way, you know. And I also think there's a certain, I see this with autism as well, there's a certain amount of like, like the left handed thing that Margaret brought up, you know? Like, it might seem like, it might seem like an undue spike, but I'm sure a large percentage of that is people who are finally getting care they need. Margaret 37:12 And then also, like, I think about it because I came closer to seeking medication for ADHD than I ever have. And what it was for me is that I built my entire life around the fact that I have ADHD, there's a reason that I'm a freelancer, there's a reason that I, you know, I travel, there's a reason I work for myself. Like, there's all these things that I've done, that have made ADHD not a problem in my life, right. But actually, the beginning of the pandemic, it made it more of a problem. It made it harder for me because like, I had to sit in my cabin and work on a computer in order to eat food, and stuff, you know, and so like, and I don't thrive in certain environments, and so I was like, "Man, if I had something that helped me thrive in this environment." So. Casandra 37:56 Which then makes me wonder, like, how much of that need is attached to Capitalism, you know, lthe ike productivity. So? Yeah. Margaret 38:04 Oh, yeah. No, totally. I mean. Totally. I had a day job for a minute. Casandra 38:10 Sitting in a cabin alone with....That sounds like my dream. Margaret 38:16 I know. Well, I was fine until the day job. Awesome. Margaret 38:24 Okay, so, Brooke 38:25 Again, I don't want to like bash anybody that's taking it. I don't know. I don't want to say that there aren't legitimate reasons that some of those people didn't need it. But, we we do know that it's overprescribed, that you take you know, young people who are high achieving, and we've got them overscheduled and fucking Capitalism. Casandra 38:41 Oh, everyone, I knew in college was....Adderall all the time. Brooke 38:46 Yeah, just give them drugs. So, that's part of the problem. Anyway, the DEA is trying to get you addicted to meth. x Casandra 38:59 I thought it was the FDA. Margaret 39:02 And that's why they're shooting down balloons. Brooke 39:06 No, it's the DEA because that's the Drug Enforcement Agency. They're the ones trying to perpetuate the war on drugs and they have something to do. Casandra 39:14 I hope people know when we are and aren't being sarcastic. Margaret 39:22 I hope so too. But I'm not optimistic. Brooke 39:27 Never take me seriously. That's my answer. I have one other fun conspiracy theory thing. Okay, it actually came up right after the end of our last recording and it was kind of a bummer. We didn't get it in there. But, it's about chicken feed. Casandra 39:46 Big Chicken! Brooke 39:47 And chicken feed conspiracy, that something is....Yep, Big Chicken. Not and not Tyson. Not that evil chicken, but it's actually a big big fooder you may have heard of this brand called Purina? Casandra 40:01 Dog food. Brooke 40:02 Are pretty well known for creating pet food. Yeah. Margaret 40:05 They feed cats. Brooke 40:06 But they also make more industrial feeds like chicken feed and guinea pigs and goats and I don't even know the full extent of their thing, but they make feed for a lot of different kinds of animals. And people started reporting in July last year that their chickens and this is industrial level and you know, household people chicken in the backyard kind of people, crazies like me that their their egg laying productions seem to be going down. And then going through the winter, a lot of a lot of people have talked about their eggs production from their chickens being at or very near zero, which I also have been in this boat for a while my my four girls were not laying any eggs. And it wasn't an old chicken issue, like they're, they're young, and they just started laying this last summer. And yes, production goes down in the winter, that's normal, but doesn't usually just completely drop off. So, people were posting about it on social medias and talking about it and started forming this conspiracy that there's something wrong with chicken feed, Purina mainly because they're one of the biggest suppliers not just under their name brand, but their sub brands as well. And that something is missing in the chicken feed that's causing them not to lay as well. And then lots people saying "I switched to another brand, I started mixing my own," blah, blah, blah. "And suddenly my my chickens are laying again." And as much as I hate conspiracy theories and don't want to feed into it, I have to say that I also was having the same issue of zero egg production. And then I grabbed a protein blend from a different brand and started mixing that into their feed and getting eggs. Margaret 41:49 That doesn't have to be a conspiracy. They could have just fucked up. Casandra 41:51 Honestly, people have reported that they've had their feet tested. They've had their Purina tested and it contains the appropriate amount of protein. So there's like, at this point a month later....I'm sorry, I was the one who brought this up because I was I raise quail. And so I'm on, I don't know, poultry, social media. Yeah. Anyway. But yeah, so apparently people have gotten their feed tested, and it has the appropriate components, so now they're like, "Is there something added to it?" That's the new conspiracy. Margaret 42:27 Well, I know what, I know what the problem is. Brooke 42:29 Morgaret has the answer. Casandra 42:32 Okay, good. Margaret 42:32 Yeah, I watched this....No, it's not gonna be the answer. No, I watched this documentary called All Quiet on the Western Front on Netflix last night. And in it, the Imperial German soldiers, while they're occupied France during World War One, there's they're breaking into farmers yards and stealing the eggs. And so it's actually. It's actually Imperial German soldiers are breaking into everyone's yards and stealing quail eggs and chicken eggs. Brooke 43:10 Oh, okay. Casandra 43:12 Obvious. Brooke 43:12 There are a lot of other factors that genuinely influence chicken, like production, like the amount of light and the temperature. And, you know, our light levels are not particularly off. They're low this time of year, like always, but it definitely has been a little bit colder on average this winter here for us, though. My mother...Hi, Mom, I love you was like you need to put a heating light on your chickens and they'll lay more which I did for a month and it didn't affect anything. Although that was also after one of those snows that we had too. Casandra 43:44 Can I telll you one of the more wingnut versions of this I've heard? Brooke 43:47 Yes, please. Casandra 43:48 And who knows. But, the most like, you know, puppet master version of all of this I've heard is that Purina partnered with some giant egg company that I can't remember the name of right now, who just opened a whole bunch of, starting last fall open several massive like egg production facilities. So, it's in Purina's best interest to add something to the feed so that our chickens can't lay eggs. And that's why egg prices are through the roof. And now you have to buy the eggs and it's just ohhhh. Yeah. Brooke 44:26 Yeah, that's the other thing that's feeding into the conspiracy theories I was gonna wrap this up with. Brooke 44:29 Sorry. I'm taking... Brooke 44:30 No, you're fine. It's perfect. Perfect segue. Excellent. Yeah. Is the prices going up on eggs is all feeding into conspiracy and you know, people not thinking about food prices in general have gone up and we feed chickens food things. And yeah, anyway, what Margaret? Margaret 44:48 Oh, just there's some, I was reading today, that there's some guesses that we might have hit peak food inflation, specifically around eggs and meat. Because basically, no one can get enough money...because you can't sell eggs at a certain...the way cap, the market works, you know, you can't sell it at a certain amount, so fewer sell or whatever. And so wholesale egg prices have started dropping. And as of when the article I read came out this had not yet hit retail egg prices. Because people probably are like, Well, alright, I can buy them for cheap and sell them for just as much Fuck yeah. But wholesale egg prices are starting to drop and meat prices are also starting to drop on a wholesale level, because inflation reduced the profit. Brooke 45:39 Okay. Well, the one upside, so that's sorry..... Casandra 45:48 I think there's something about Purina feed, and we don't know what and that's fine. And that people seem to be switching feeds or making their own and it's fine. I mean, there might be but like, I don't really care personally, I'm like, I just want my quails to lay eggs. Margaret 46:07 And it's just not a conspiracy. They're just fucked up their food. Brooke 46:09 Right. Yeah, there's other complicating factors. It's not maybe not just this one thing. Like, yeah, you know, we hear where Cas and I live have had a colder little bit colder winter than average and that'll slow down production. I don't know for the US as an entirety but you know, just an example. Margaret 46:25 Well, there's there's that saying "Never never attribute to incompetence. What can be understood..." No, wait. I know something isn't...It's Goddamnit "It's not malice. It's incompetence." It's more likely that it is incompetence than malice at any given thing that's happening. Casandra 46:49 I mean, yeah, it's like very experienced people who are having this issue, like there's something, there's something wrong, right? Margaret 47:05 Oh, that's what I mean about...sorry, I don't mean incompetence of the chicken keepers. The chicken lords. Brooke 47:10 That is what we call ourselves, Margaret, chicken lords. Margaret 47:12 I mean, the incompetence of Purina. The...like Purina fucking up the feed is probably because they fucked up the feed, not cause they're like, "hahaha." Brooke 47:25 I mean, it's entirely possible Purina switched to cheaper, lower quality components to create their feeds because of inflation. Casandra 47:31 It's not incompetence if it's a giant company. Yeah. Brooke 47:35 There's something in that. The one upside of.... Casandra 47:40 Root cause. Okay. Yeah. Brooke 47:42 There you go. Nice. Margaret 47:44 Yeah, it might be greed instead of malice. Brooke 47:45 Let me just say the happy thing. Margaret 47:46 What's the happy thing? What's the happy thing? Brooke 47:50 Is that people have turned to other feed sources. So, instead of supporting the big giant mega Corp, they're supporting smaller ones, like I reached out to a local person who's making their own blends. And I'm going to start using some of that. People have learned how to create their own blends and feed their things, which I think it's always great to get away from the industrial manufacturers. So... Casandra 48:11 I don't know how to jump from chickens to this.... Brooke 48:17 Chickens. Avian Flu. Flu. Sickness. Bad. Long COVID. Casandra 48:24 I raised quail because I'm allergic to chicken eggs, cause autoimmune disease. Did you know long COVID is kind of like an autoimmune disease? Brooke 48:32 Nice. Casandra 48:35 Do either of you know anyone with long covid? Brooke 48:37 Yes. Margaret 48:39 Yeah, part of the reason I don't leave the house, not because I have it, but because I'm terrified. I mean, I'm making rational decisions around safety. Brooke 48:48 I'm worried I'm having it. Casandra 48:52 Oh, well, maybe maybe this will be easier. When I when I first heard about it. So, some of the symptoms I've heard include fatigue, brain fog, difficulty breathing, joint pain, chest pain, general like lower quality of life, gut issues. When I hear that list, I'm like, oh, that's, that sounds like my autoimmune disease. And sure enough, they're realizing that long COVID does have a lot in common with an autoimmune disease. I don't think they're classifying it that way. At this point, like the research is ongoing, but it's just really interesting to me. So apparently, something like 11% of people who get COVID-19 will have long COVID, which lets you one study in "Nature," I read said up to 65 million people are suffering from on COVID, which is apparently a 10th of the number of people worldwide who have had COVID. So , 1 in 10 people is kind of a lot. Yeah. And suddenly, you know, folks at the beginning of COVID, who were calling it, a mass disabling event make a lot more sense. Brooke 50:01 Yeah. Casandra 50:05 This is terrible and funny. I read a tweet where someone said "People went on about herd immunity. But now we have heard autoimmunity." Brooke 50:12 Oh, it's funny and awful Casandra 50:17 It is. Sorry, I'm laughing at that because I have an autoimmune disease. I think I should offer that context. So, populations impacted: Apparently 4% of folks with long COVID are under 12. Aside from that about a third are people under 50. Another third are 50 to 60. And then another third are people above 65. So it is impacting people who are our age. Brooke 50:44 You can't have three thirds and four percent. Casandra 50:47 I said, in addition to that. Or after that. Brooke 50:51 Okay, sorry. Math. Just slap me. Casandra 50:53 I read so many studies to cobble this all together. Don't judge my numbers. It's more...I say that to bookkeeper. It's more predominant in transgender folks and women, which is also true of autoimmune diseases. 75% of people with long COVID where never hospitalized. 75% of those people have not sought medical help for long COVID. And there's also an assumption that a lot of these numbers are actually higher, because we all know how reporting has gone down in and how healthcare is expensive. And if people don't have to go to a hospital or a doctor, they won't, you know. Brooke 51:35 Is there anyone out there that still saying long COVID doesn't exist? Not like the you know, extremists but like, mainstream for a while was like long COVID is made up? It's not actually happening. Is that still a common thought? Or is that finally going away? Casandra 51:50 I don't know how common it...so this is all really curious to me because I have an autoimmune disease and because last month, January 2023, two different studies came out about Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, which I also have, and how it increases the likelihood of long COVID. And when that study came out, I started to see a bunch of people talking about long COVID and low dose Naltrexone being a useful approach, which is a medication I take, which I cannot get prescribed by a regular doctor. Because they deny that it's a useful immunomodulator. Like remedy. And that's all to say that like, I think I'm hypersensitive to the disbelief around these things. And one of the reasons this if fascinating to me. Yeah, one of the reasons this is fascinating to me, is because it's opening up these conversations about these diseases that patients have been talking about for years, and have not historically been believed. Margaret 52:56 Often as a symptom of misogyny, right? Casandra 53:01 Yeah, Totally. I don't know anyone who has, you know, something in the spectrum of chronic illness who hasn't gone through, like literally years of doctor saying it "Doesn't exist," or "You don't have it." Or "It's not that bad." Like, I had to call my doctor and inform her of what I had, like, based on my labs, because she didn't tell me. And so now there's this like, sped up process around long COVID, right, where like, so many people are getting sick all at once that like, there was the disbelief and other people downplaying it. But like, research is catching up at a faster rate, it seems like, which has implications for the broader community, which could be positive. Even though it sucks that how many, how many millions. 65 million people.... Margaret 53:52 Well, it's like mRNA caccines, like, it's fucking cool, that we're suddenly able to get vaccinated for so many more things than we used to. And it is absolutely fucked that it took this...It took so many people getting this before people were like, "Oh, maybe it's just not like the modern version of hysteria," the whiny woman disease or whatever, you know. Casandra 54:20 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think there's....up until very recently, if you walked into a doctor and were like, even if you had a what's the word I'm looking for, not a prescription when they tell you what your... a diagnosis, from a previous doctor saying "I have chronic fatigue," or whatever. It's highly likely that your new doctor will say that doesn't exist. But now, suddenly, the only word...it's like the only words that they have to describe long COVID are these words like chronic fatigue and autoimmune disease? So, suddenly they have to like view them as legitimate. But studies are coming out in these like, major scientific journals like "Nature." "JANA," what's the other one? I was reading? Whatever, science. So people are taking it seriously. And that's, not exciting because I wish it didn't exist at all, but is good. Brooke 55:27 Yeah, the friend that I have. Casandra 55:28 I have a whole. Oh, go ahead. Brooke 55:30 Oh, just the friend that I have that has long COVID he has faced a lot of that struggle with this belief. I think he got COVID earlier on, or at least not recently. And yeah, definitely has faced a lot of like disbelief and extra hurdles and trying to advocate for himself and get the kind of care that he needs. Casandra 55:54 Yeah. And it's, it's I think maybe people need to understand how severe it can be. Because the umbrella of long COVID, my understanding, like, you know, they're still actively defining this term, but my understanding is that it's people who have at least two symptoms, at least, I think it's two months after the acute infection goes away. But for some people that can be so debilitating that like, they need walkers, or they need you know, it's life altering. Yeah. And I read one study that said that, as many as 4 million people are unemployed, because of long covid, which is a whole other conversation around, like, what counts as a disability in this country? And what doesn't? Like I remember when I was first diagnosed with my autoimmune disease, and was way less functional than I am now. I was like, "Why? Why would I not qualify for disability?" And the answer is that there are a lot of bureaucratic reasons, apparently. But yeah, who knows, maybe that will change too. Brooke 57:04 Part of it's because...part of the bureaucracy is that they can't take away the designation once they've given it. So, they don't want to make it too easy to label you disabled, because then you don't, you don't get to go back from being disabled. Margaret 57:22 Or we could just not means test care. And anyone who needs care, could just have care. Casandra 57:31 We don't think you're sick enough. Do you want to hear some more interesting statistics? Brooke 57:39 Always. Give me numbers. Casandra 57:42 Yeah, I know Brooks excited. So, a study in Germany recently found that people who get COVID have a 30% or had a 30% increase in risk of autoimmune diseases up to a year after their acute infection. So, there's active comorbidity there. And the people who go into COVID having an autoimmune disease, have a 25% increase in their chance of contracting additional autoimmune diseases. But that's all significantly lowered if patients are vaccinated. There's a like crunchy version of autoimmune communities where people are antivax. Margaret 58:26 Oh, that's why you're making angry eyes as soon as you.... Casandra 58:30 Well, so these statistics are particularly important, right? Margaret 58:35 I'm mad that there's been a Lyme vaccine that they just didn't finish studying. I could be wrong about this. I don't remember all the details. I read a pop science article about it. But there's like a...there's been a Lyme disease [vaccine] that they can give to dogs, but they just didn't finish studying it and people. And it's been around for like 20 years. Brooke 58:54 That's infuriating. Casandra 58:55 I don't live in Lyme country. So it's not like as big an issue here. But that's wild. Margaret 59:00 I got Lyme in Oregon. Like, where you live. But, and I and I live in fucking Lyme country and I've never gotten Lyme over here. Brooke 59:11 Wow. Yeah. Got some anyway, family in Idaho that, about 15 years ago, were battling Lyme and one of them had it since he was a teenager. Margaret 59:23 I want to fucking Lyme vaccine. It's like, I think people who play D&D are going to be smarter around risk analysis, because anyone who's played D&D knows that 5% chance of something happens means it's gonna happen. Like... Casandra 59:37 Yeah, eventually. Margaret 59:39 Yeah, exactly. And because you've had that happen over and over again, when you play this, and you also realize that anything that you get, that's like, a plus 5% safer, you always take it, right, like, and the vaccine is like a 90% safer, and people are like, "Ah, people still get sick, so therefore it's bullshit," but Like, if the vaccine made you 5% safer, and you play Dungeons and Dragons, you'll take it. Casandra 1:00:05 It's actually, it's 10%. It's 10% safer. Margaret 1:00:09 Wait, what is? Casandra 1:00:11 If you're vaccinated.... Margaret 1:00:13 Oh, about the autoimmune stuff. Okay. Casandra 1:00:15 Yeah. Margaret 1:00:15 I was thinking about like COVID itself, but yeah. Yeah. Casandra 1:00:21 I just like kind of fantasy of my high school stats class actually being taught through D&D and like, maybe I would have understood math. Margaret 1:00:27 Yeah, it like, it's, yeah, you understand probability a lot better if you like, regularly.... Casandra 1:00:33 You're actively practicing. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what else do you want to know? Margaret 1:00:43 About long COVID? Casandra 1:00:45 Yeah. Margaret 1:00:46 I was hearing that....It...For most people does taper off. Is that being understood? Or is that like, like not to be like, therefore it's fine, but just like, less of a like, "Oh, God, my life is over. This thing has happened," or whatever. Like, I was under the impression that people....not that it should...people should feel like their life is over, even if they get it bad. But like, not that it's... Casandra 1:01:17 It's not debilitating? Brooke 1:01:18 It's not permanent. Margaret 1:01:19 It's not necessarily...it's not necessarily permanently debilitating to everyone who gets it and that it like a lot of people it's about a way slower getting better, but not everyone some people it's about a permanent effect. But that other people are like recovering just very slowly. Is that? Am I completely off? I've no idea. Casandra 1:01:40 I've heard that empirically. But I didn't find a study that like....I found studies acknowledging that for some people after a few months, they get better. Like even if they started out with long COVID, symptoms will get better, but I didn't actually see numbers about...and I think part of that is that it hasn't been long enough. Margaret 1:01:57 Yeah, totally. Casandra 1:01:58 And even if...so, so I keep comparing this to an autoimmune disease, but they haven't actually said like "This is in fact an autoimmune disease," you know, there are people who say it's because of mast cell activation there are people who say it's actually a neurological issue, like they're still figuring it out. But if in fact it it does function like an autoimmune disease you would need years to see how it actually impacts people because people might have a slower recovery and feel better and then you know, their immune system could be triggered by something and they'll get sick again. So yeah, we just don't know. Casandra 1:02:33 That makes sense. Brooke 1:02:36 So I might not be fatigued and coughing forever is what you're saying? Maybe. Casandra 1:02:42 Yeah. Brooke 1:02:45 Okay, that's good. Casandra 1:02:46 But if you are people are researching the efficacy of low dose Naltrexone Brooke 1:02:51 And I'll get my brain back. Maybe. Casandra 1:02:54 I'd say some percentage of it. Margaret 1:02:57 Have you tried yoga? Casandra 1:03:02 You're actually not supposed to do stretching flexibility things with Ehlers Danlos, that's the antithesis of what you're supposed to do. So, no. Margaret 1:03:14 I hope that as we talked about, people not being able to tell when people are being sarcastic, I hope that I manage that tone. Brooke 1:03:22 Okay, but I need yoga for my PTSD. Now I'm lost. Casandra 1:03:27 You could just try the breathing exercises. Brooke 1:03:30 Okay. Meditation that's the one universal good. Casandra 1:03:32 Yeah. Brooke 1:03:33 Maybe. We'll see the sleep disorder. Casandra 1:03:38 I feel I feel like what we're doing right now is like a small encapsulated version of what these like, chronic illness communities do on a larger scale. And at a certain point, I just, like, have to detach myself because I'm like, everything will harm you. Casandra 1:03:52 How about we talk about other headlines. Casandra 1:03:58 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, I found some fun ones. So, I don't remember exactly what she said. I'm sure anyone on Twitter saw, but Marjorie Taylor Greene was basically like "The country should get a divorce." Like, in my mind is civil war. That's a fun one. Margaret 1:04:19 Yeah, and I, I like that one also, because it's like people talk about like, red states, blue states, and people are like, "Oh, well, you know, Oklahoma is banning trans people. Fortunately, no trans people live there." Like, that's not fucking true. And like, and even from a like, Democrat--Republican binary, the difference between a red state and a blue state is usually about 60/40 one way or the other. Yeah, you know, and like, and that's what people aren't acknowledging. Well, there's a million things people aren't acknowledging. Casandra 1:04:50 Sort of what she wanted, she wanted to...part of that comment she made was about proposing that if people move to a red state from a blue state, they should have a period where they can't vote. which would in fact make it so that they were purely red states. Margaret 1:05:05 That's true. As a....I am not a Democrat, but I live in a red state and I am far worse than what they're afraid of with the Democrats. Yeah. Okay, my fun headline. Are we just doing like one headline back and forth for a moment? Casandra 1:05:23 Yeah. Margaret 1:05:25 Massive floods and mudslides in Brazil killed 36 people leaving 800 people homeless, displacing thousands of people, hitting multiple cities. Just massive fuck off disaster that didn't even make it to my social media headlines. Casandra 1:05:41 That makes me want to message Mena. Margaret 1:05:43 Yeah, not a bad idea to check in with her. Friends. I mean, sometimes it's like, Brazil is a very large country, right, and so like, you know, like, if someone something happens in the Pacific Northwest, and someone, my friend from another country is like, "Are you okay?" Then again, I wouldn't actually be sad at someone for checking in, even if something...whatever, anyway. Casandra 1:06:09 Federal Emergency SNAP benefits are ending March 1. Thanks, Biden. Yeah, for some people, that means the difference between like, $270 a month and $20 a month. It's like, a huge amount of money. Brooke 1:06:24 Yeah, for me, it's the difference between like, being able to just buy the foods I need and knowing there's gonna be enough versus like, having to really pay attention and budget of things to make sure I don't run out by the end of the month. Like it's not it's not even a huge amount of difference for me, but it's enough of like the difference between having to pay close attention and just being able to just buy food like normal. Casandra 1:06:49 Yeah. I've seen a few different posts by food pantry volunteers who are like, "It's already like wild in food pantries. And it's not even March 1 yet." Margaret 1:07:01 Floods in New Zealand killed for at least four people and displace 9000 people. All these headlines, it's like things show up in the head in the news when it happens. And then like this one in New Zealand, it's like, killed at least four people and there's 1300 people unaccounted for. And that article is from a while ago and so I didn't find an updated article. The fact that I didn't find it updated article probably means that 1000 More people didn't die, but was really fucking bad. Brooke 1:07:32 And then there's 9000 people that got displaced and you probably don't know what happened to them and where they went. Margaret 1:07:41 Are we still ping-ponging or should I just go with the rest of mine. Casandra 1:07:45 Oh no, I'll go Walgreens recently caved to Conservative pressure and agreed to stop selling Mifo...I get the full names of miso and mife confused but it's one of them. Margaret 1:07:59 One of the main abortion drugs. Casandra 1:08:01 Yeah, in a pro choice state. Margaret 1:08:06 Wow, in a pro choice? I didn't. Casandra 1:08:08 Oh, yes, it's Kansas, which is a pro choice state, and the you know, in case you needed the added kicker, Mifo is also used for completing miscarriages, so people will not be able to access that drug if they have a miscarriage. At least not in Walgreens. So, you know, change pharmacies if you want. Margaret 1:08:31 Legally Walgreens. Brooke 1:08:34 In Minecraft. Margaret 1:08:35 Ah, in Czarist Russia, that's what I'm pushing for is the new 'In Minecraft'. They cracked Minecraft. Now it's all about Czarist Russia. Warming oceans are cutting into the world's widest glacier. They're cutting like big trenches from the bottom into the world's widest glacier, the Thwaites, ultimately these melting glaciers over the next couple 100 years will likely raise global sea level by 10 feet. Brooke 1:09:04 Is that an Antarctic glacier? Margaret 1:09:07 I don't know. Casandra 1:09:12 I'm assured by a friend who's like a right wing researcher, who isn't right wing but does research into right wing hate groups, that this is probably going to be a non issue, but apparently and Idaho hate group on Telegram has been calling for an 'Antisemitic Day of Hate,' this Shabbat and I have friends in the areas where this is happening who have said that their synagogues are canceling services. Margaret 1:09:37 That fucking bums me out. Economic Research firm Moody's looked at US cities most at risk for combined heat, drought and sea level rise over the next 30 years,, basically like what US cities are going to be most impacted by climate change over the next couple of decades. And the losers are the Bay Area, a whole bunch of Florida, N

FLA MBB coach, Todd Golden, and MSST MBB coach, Chris Jans, joined the show. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Mississippi State head basketball coach Chris Jans joins the show on the Farm Bureau guest line to talk about the Bulldogs latest push toward March Madness. Coach Jans shares how he feels about getting compared to Lou Brown of Major League and what his motivational speech sounded like. Coach Jans discusses the stress of playing a team like Vanderbilt for the first time late in the season. Coach Jans discusses his practice strategy for this late season game against Vanderbilt. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bo and Blake talk SEC baseball and basketball in the first hour of the show live in the BankPlus Studio. The guys react to the weird finish to the Ole Miss baseball game as they got a win over Louisiana Tech via a technicality due to weather. Bo looks ahead to the huge game for Mississippi State basketball this Saturday as they travel to Nashville to take on a red-hot Vanderbilt club. The guys debate who has become Batman and Robin for Chris Jans' team this season, and how that might propel them to the NCAA Tournament. With Ole Miss winning in bizarre fashion, the guys hit some audio from LaTech head baseball coach Lane Burroughs, who took shots at the Rebels coaches and administration for how they handled the situation. The guys discuss how much these midweek games mean to the G5 teams looking to upset a Power 5 program, and talk about how Jake Mangum owned the midweek at the MBraves stadium in Pearl during his career at MSU. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bo and Blake talk Chris Jans' voice double and why Bo hates mayo in the second hour of the show live in the BankPlus Studio. The guys start off talking about Chris Jans voice double and others who sound like the Mississippi State head basketball coach. Bo and Blake discuss Bulldogs basketball's next game against Vanderbilt, who just defeated Kentucky at Rupp Arena last night, and how they can force their way into March Madness. Bo and Blake spin the Tito's Prize Wheel and give away some awesome prizes to the listeners. While spinning the wheel, the guys discuss weird food combinations and everything Bo will do to avoid mayonnaise. The guys debate whether or not you can use mayo to cook a steak, and listeners weigh in with the weird ways they use mayo at home. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bo and Blake talk about the collapse of Kentucky basketball and Mississippi State marching to March Madness in the third hour of the show live in the BankPlus Studio. The guys start off talking about the collapse of Kentucky basketball as they drop a close game to Vanderbilt. The guys debate if Wildcats fans are experiencing John Calipari fatigue. Bo and Blake discuss some of the funniest names for disc golf tournaments and what they would name their own tourney. Mississippi State head basketball coach Chris Jans joins the show on the Farm Bureau guest line to talk about the Bulldogs latest push toward March Madness. Coach Jans shares how he feels about getting compared to Lou Brown of Major League and what his motivational speech sounded like. Coach Jans discusses the stress of playing a team like Vanderbilt for the first time late in the season. Coach Jans discusses his practice strategy for this late season game against Vanderbilt. Coach Jans talks about Shawn Jones Jr. and what he means to the team, as well as Cam Matthews and his impressive ball handling. Coach Jans talks about other key players development and how the team has built a solid relationship over the course of this season. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Mississippi State head basketball coach Chris Jans joins the show on the Farm Bureau guest line to talk about the Bulldogs latest push toward March Madness. Coach Jans shares how he feels about getting compared to Lou Brown of Major League and what his motivational speech sounded like. Coach Jans discusses the stress of playing a team like Vanderbilt for the first time late in the season. Coach Jans discusses his practice strategy for this late season game against Vanderbilt. Coach Jans talks about Shawn Jones Jr. and what he means to the team, as well as Cam Matthews and his impressive ball handling. Coach Jans talks about other key players development and how the team has built a solid relationship over the course of this season. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Mississippi State head basketball coach Chris Jans joins the show on the Farm Bureau guest line to talk about key players for the Bulldogs. Coach Jans talks about Shawn Jones Jr. and what he means to the team, as well as Cam Matthews and his impressive ball handling. Coach jans talks about what it is like to have two solid big men in Cam Matthews and Tolu Smith. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Mississippi State head basketball coach Chris Jans joins the show on the Farm Bureau guest line to talk about key players for the Bulldogs. Coach Jans talks about D.J. Jeffries and how he has developed so much this season. Coach Jans talks about other key players development and how the team has built a solid relationship over the course of this season. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bo and Blake talk SEC baseball and basketball in the first hour of the show live in the BankPlus Studio. The guys recap a loaded Tuesday as Mississippi State accomplishes the rare feat of winning two huge games in one night, while Ole Miss baseball found itself on the wrong end of a midweek game against Louisiana Tech. Bo gives his thoughts on how big the win over Southern Miss was for Chris Lemonis and the Bulldogs baseball team, who used an eighth-inning rally to defeat the Golden Eagles in Pearl. The guys discuss the big win for MSU on the hardwood as Chris Jans becomes just the second coach in program history to win 20 games in his first season. Bo talks about how Jans has overachieved early in Starkville and what's still left to accomplish in the SEC Tournament. With NFL free agency and the Draft looming, Bo and Blake debate what the future holds for Green Bay Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bo and Blake talk SEC baseball and basketball in the SEC Insider Hit live in the BankPlus Studio. Bo gives his thoughts on how big the win over Southern Miss was for Chris Lemonis and the Bulldogs baseball team, who used an eighth-inning rally to defeat the Golden Eagles in Pearl. The guys discuss the big win for MSU on the hardwood as Chris Jans becomes just the second coach in program history to win 20 games in his first season. Bo talks about how Jans has overachieved early in Starkville and what's still left to accomplish in the SEC Tournament. With NFL free agency and the Draft looming, Bo and Blake debate what the future holds for Green Bay Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bo and Blake talk all things SEC in the second hour of the show live in the BankPlus Studio. The guys have fun with the discussion in the SEC Insider Hit about Blake and his disc golf habits, including using his loud mouth to distract the opponent. Bo talks SEC football as the schedule flips for Mississippi State and Ole Miss heading into next season, the first without Mike Leach leading the Bulldogs since 2020. In the SEC Insider Hit, Mississippi State insider Charlie Winfield joins the show on the Farm Bureau guest line talking Bulldogs basketball and baseball. Charlie recaps the huge win for Chris Jans and company as the Bulldogs took down Texas A&M at home in what was a must-win game for their NCAA Tournament chances. Charlie talks about the incredible job Jans has done in his first season in Starkville with a lackluster roster and the chances the team can make it into the tournament. Charlie discusses the come-from-behind series win for Mississippi State baseball as they overcome an embarrassing loss on Friday to take the next two games from Arizona State. Charlie talks about the up-and-down pitching for MSU and what to expect moving forward with the starting rotation. Charlie talks about the high-powered offense from the Bulldogs on Sunday and who to watch at the plate as the starting lineup continues to solidify for Chris Lemonis. Charlie discusses the newcomers who are making the biggest impact to start the season, including a pair of star freshman from the metro area. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Mississippi State insider Charlie Winfield joins the show on the Farm Bureau guest line talking Bulldogs basketball and baseball. Charlie recaps the huge win for Chris Jans and company as the Bulldogs took down Texas A&M at home in what was a must-win game for their NCAA Tournament chances. Charlie talks about the incredible job Jans has done in his first season in Starkville with a lackluster roster and the chances the team can make it into the tournament. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Mississippi State insider Charlie Winfield joins the show on the Farm Bureau guest line talking Bulldogs basketball and baseball. Charlie recaps the huge win for Chris Jans and company as the Bulldogs took down Texas A&M at home in what was a must-win game for their NCAA Tournament chances. Charlie talks about the incredible job Jans has done in his first season in Starkville with a lackluster roster and the chances the team can make it into the tournament. Charlie discusses the come-from-behind series win for Mississippi State baseball as they overcome an embarrassing loss on Friday to take the next two games from Arizona State. Charlie talks about the up-and-down pitching for MSU and what to expect moving forward with the starting rotation. Charlie talks about the high-powered offense from the Bulldogs on Sunday and who to watch at the plate as the starting lineup continues to solidify for Chris Lemonis. Charlie discusses the newcomers who are making the biggest impact to start the season, including a pair of star freshman from the metro area. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Sam Purcell is the first Lady Bulldog coach to score 20 wins in his debut season, and now the NCAA Tournament is in reach for his team as the regular schedule ends Sunday. Meanwhile Mississippi State has a quad one win opportunity with Texas A&M coming to Humphrey Coliseum. The 10th-place Bulldogs need at least two more SEC wins down the stretch to avoid a first-day game at the league tournament. Tolu Smith is carrying the club in the paint, now if Shakeel Moore and others put in some outside scoring State can get on the right side of that NCAA bubble. Smith is a finalist for and should come away with the Bailey Howell Trophy for best player in Mississippi this winter.

durée : 00:59:13 - Le Cours de l'histoire - par : Xavier Mauduit - Au temps de Molière, les jansénistes étaient-ils des religieux rigoristes, des pessimistes du Grand Siècle ou des dévots frondeurs ? Pour Louis XIV, ils sont avant tout une menace pour le royaume dont il faut se débarrasser, quitte à interdire la pièce "Tartuffe", pourtant fortement appréciée... - invités : Monique Cottret Historienne, professeure émérite à Paris Nanterre, spécialiste d'histoire moderne; Anne Régent-Susini Professeure de littérature française du XVIIe siècle à l'Université Sorbonne-nouvelle

The 2023 Diamond Dog season is finally begun and opening weekend opened well with a win over VMI. Besides a few defensive lapses, Mississippi State was efficient at the plate and on the mound. Chris Lemonis put two of his transfers at the top of the order and both delivered, as did another in a relief pitching role to get the win. It's a transitional season as Lemonis and staff mix veterans, transfers, new faces and a talented redshirt or two. The basketball Bulldogs can't let a midweek home loss linger as they go to rival Ole Miss playing to sweep the season series and keep their NCAA Tournament hopes trending in the right direction. And, a spring football schedule is ready and waiting for Zach Arnett's first full season.

Bo and Blake talk SEC hoops and relationship advice on a special Valentine's Day edition of the show live in the BankPlus Studio. The guys get you set for the most romantic day of the year talking proper Valentine's Day protocol, from where you celebrate to how much to spend. Bo gives Blake a hard time about hosting a special someone at his place for a big Valentine's dinner tonight and what he might be cooking to impress her. With Mississippi State basketball hosting Kentucky tomorrow, the guys hit on the momentous opportunity for Chris Jans and company to get a big win to propel them into the postseason. Bo gives his thoughts on what a win over Kentucky would mean not only for Jans but the Bulldogs chances at a March Madness berth. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bo and Blake talk SEC hoops and relationship advice in the SEC Insider Hit live in the BankPlus Studio. Bo gives Blake a hard time about hosting a special someone at his place for a big Valentine's dinner tonight and what he might be cooking to impress her. With Mississippi State basketball hosting Kentucky tomorrow, the guys hit on the momentous opportunity for Chris Jans and company to get a big win to propel them into the postseason. Bo gives his thoughts on what a win over Kentucky would mean not only for Jans but the Bulldogs chances at a March Madness berth. The guys talk about some of the cool and unique things that you can do in Kentucky besides watch Wildcat basketball. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bo and Blake talk Bulldogs basketball and the New Orleans Saints in the third hour of the show live in the BankPlus Studio. The guys start off talking about Chris Jans' funny comments on his locker room dance moves. Bo and Blake discuss how the Dawgs are preparing for their big game against Kentucky. The guys talk about the issues the Saints have to address in the offseason. Mississippi State assistant coach and former NBA player Scott Padgett joins the show on the Farm Bureau guest line to talk some MSU basketball. Scott talks about the Bulldogs most recent win over Arkansas. Scott discusses Jans defensive strategy and what he has learned from the Mississippi State head coach. Scott talks about the Bulldogs guard play and how it has improved. Scott shares the story of how he first met Rick Pitino and his recruitment to Kentucky. Scott talks about his time in the NBA, playing with Stockton and Malone. Bo and Scott discuss the best player he ever played against. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Mississippi State assistant coach and former NBA player Scott Padgett joins the show on the Farm Bureau guest line to talk some MSU basketball. Scott talks about how the team is getting ready to take on Kentucky in a big SEC match up. Scott discusses Jans defensive strategy and what he has learned from the Mississippi State head coach. Scott talks about the Bulldogs guard play and how it has improved. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In de dagelijkse podcast van FC Afkicken bespreken Lars van Eijden, Mart ten Have en Jaron Blonk op maandag 13 februari onder meer de topclubs die geen fouten maken, de mogelijkheid van Schreuder bij Leeds United, het eerste doelpunt van Memphis Depay in dienst van Atletico Madrid én de derby van Liverpool!(00:00) Intro(3:04) Top vijf foutloos(20:44) Jans en Streuer vertrekken bij Twente(27:35) Memphis is los(33:14) Schreuder naar Leeds(39:35) Merseyside MessZie het privacybeleid op https://art19.com/privacy en de privacyverklaring van Californië op https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.