The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast

WhoDennis Eshbaugh, President and General Manager of Holiday Valley, New YorkThis is Dennis' second appearance on The Storm Skiing Podcast:Date RecordedOct. 2, 2026About Holiday ValleyOwned by: Win-Sum Ski Corp, which Holiday Valley's website describes as “a closely held corporation owned by a small number of stockholders.”Year founded: 1957 (opened Jan. 7, 1958)Pass affiliations: None!Base elevation: 1,514 feet (bottom of Snowpine Quad)Summit elevation: 2,324 feet (top of Tannenbaum)Vertical drop: 736 feet (skiing from the top of Tannenbaum to the bottom of Snowpine would be tricky but not impossible if a skier poached the summit-top walking trails and didn't mind a little uphill; however, it would not be a great run; the most consistent quality vert would be lapping the Mardi Gras sixer, which is roughly 693 vertical feet.)Skiable acres: 290 trail acres, but 90 percent-ish of the trees are open enough to ski through (though the trailmap has few marked glades), when there's sufficient natural snow. Which is often.Average annual snowfall: 180 inchesLift count: 13 (1 six-pack, 3 high-speed quads, 7 fixed-grip quads, 2 carpets) – Cindy's fixed-grip quad chairlift scheduled for replacement with a high-speed quad ahead of winter 2027-28.Why I interviewed himWe are in the midst of a Great Aerial Lift Reset in the United States. Halfway through this decade, U.S. ski areas have already built nearly the same number of new lifts as they did from 2010-2019:The last Great Aerial Lift Reset (GALR) came in the 1980s and ‘90s, when ski areas of means discarded not-terribly-old-fixed-grip-lifts and replaced them with detachables.The difference between GALR 1900s and GALR 2020s is that, in the previous era, most large ski areas were willing to sell their discarded lifts to small ski areas. Today, many hesitate. Holiday Valley does not hesitate. Since the 1990s, the busiest, most aggressively modern ski area in New York State has sold eight chairlifts to seven ski areas in six states. An eighth floated south until it ended up, improbably, in the Andes Mountains of Chile:Why does Holiday Valley do this? Operators who prefer to sell off the carriers as firepit accessories and scrap the rest often vaguely wave toward liability concerns. But I'm unaware of any injury lawsuit involving a relocated chairlift that blames the seller. Another common argument for scrapping older lifts is that detachable technologies are improving so rapidly that earlier generations of high-speed machines are too outmoded to bother moving. This is certainly true of most lifts built in the 1980s, but 1990s models have proven more durable – Boyne has relocated four within its system, and Holiday Valley's 1996 Garaventa-CTEC detachable quad is now Corralco's El Volcan Express.So when Holiday Valley announced recently that their next lift replacement would be a 2027 detachable quad to replace the 35-year-old Cindy's fixed-grip quad, the question was not whether they would sell it, but to whom (Holiday Valley also occasionally moves lifts internally).And when Vail Resorts announced earlier this week that Park City would replace three 1990s chairlifts with two new machines, I thought it was fair to pressure the company to either re-use the lifts or offer them for sale. The three lifts in question are highlighted below. While they're among the oldest machines on the mountain, they're not old by U.S. chairlift standards.I've held off reaching out to Vail for comment, as I anticipate seeing reps from Park City at the annual Ski Utah media event next week in New York. Vail knows how to move lifts – Hunter moved the Broadway fixed quad over to the Hunter East beginner zone two years ago, and moved a then-19-year-old bubble detach quad across Okemo in 2021. The last aerial lift relocation from a Vail-owned mountain that I'm aware of is Heavenly's Powderbowl Yan triple, retired in 2004 and moved to independent (and then-private) Echo Mountain, Colorado in 2005.If Vail decides to repurpose these Park City lifts elsewhere in their portfolio, fine. But if I see one more social media post humble-bragging about a $50,000 chair-sales donation from a lift worth 10 or 20 times that number, I think it's fair to question whether the world's largest ski company is putting its resources and scale to the highest and best use.TranscriptsThere are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don't know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.ZoomStuart Winchester: My guest today has been president of Holiday Valley New York since 1995, and general manager since 1989.00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:37.000Stuart Winchester: With 13 lifts serving nearly 300 acres of terrain on 750 vertical feet. Holiday Valley is one of the largest and busiest ski areas in New York State. It is also one of the snowiest, averaging 180 inches of lake effect snowfall.00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:47.000Stuart Winchester: per winter. He is also, like me, a proud brown dad. Dennis Eshbaugh joins me. Dennis, welcome back to the storm. How you doing today?00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:54.000Dennis Eshbaugh: I'm doing great. Good morning, Stuart, and thanks for the introduction, and uh… yes, and congratulations on your daughter at Brown, that's outstanding.00:05:54.000 --> 00:06:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, she seems to be loving it there. She's in her fourth or fifth week, and uh… just, what a cool town. I'd never been up there, and I just expected Providence to be another city, but it's very leafy and fun and collegey.00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:15.000Dennis Eshbaugh: I had the same experience in our first visit. I'd never been to Providence before Kate went there, and yeah, it's a great, great town, and a great place for a great school.00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and I didn't realize this, but Brown is older than America.00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:25.000Stuart Winchester: So, it's one of the… one of the few universities, yeah. All right, Dennis, we're coming off a pretty…00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:21.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah, hard to fathom, isn't it?00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:38.000Stuart Winchester: crummy winter in parts of the country, but it was pretty good in New York, and I… I didn't ski Holiday Valley last year, but I did get out to Hollomont Buffalo Ski Center, had really good turns there. How was last winter for Holiday Valley?00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:54.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, the first thing I want to make an observation on is Jane pointed out that you were here in Western New York and didn't ski with us. So you were duly noted, but the year was good. It was a touch late on the start. We opened a week later than anticipated.00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:45.000Stuart Winchester: Sorry.00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:47.000Stuart Winchester: Sorry.00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:06:54.000 --> 00:07:09.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Snowfall was average, I think it was in the 186 range, but the consistency of the snow was outstanding. And so the snow year was good, the ski conditions were good, and it was a really solid winter.00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I'm sorry I missed. If you want to feel even worse about that, where I blew past you to go ski is Ohio.00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:18.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Oh, my goodness! Hey!00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:21.000Stuart Winchester: I went and skied all over Ohio and then hit Buffalo on the way back.00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:20.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Oh.00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:23.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Ohio's important, it builds skiers.00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:33.000Stuart Winchester: It does, it does. And they're all… four of the five are owned by Vail, and there's one independent still, so it's interesting to see all the contrasts. And I wrote that up a little while ago. So, so last time you were on the pod.00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:49.000Stuart Winchester: Dennis, and one thing I keep telling my listeners is, one thing I like about doing shorter pods is I can have folks like you on more often, because I talk to you all the time, and bother you all the time, and text you all the time, but I haven't had you on the pod in 3 years, and you're a great guest, so it's great to get you back.00:07:49.000 --> 00:08:04.000Stuart Winchester: But you were… you were about… or you were starting the process, or you had just announced you were upgrading Mardi Gras to a six-pack, and that was gonna be the fourth generation for Mardi Gras, and that… that detached quad you were shipping down to Chile. So…00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:10.000Stuart Winchester: just talk about that. The first six-pack at Holiday Valley, you know, three seasons in, how do you like it?00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:23.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, I would say we love it. You know, it's a great lift. It's a Doppelmeyer and a great piece of machinery. Of course, like everything, you know, technology continues to improve.00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:38.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, the six-pack aspect, I mean, you know, I've been, I've been in this business a long time, and although I'd be perfectly comfortable to ski T-bars, uh, customers today don't expect that. Um, and, and as the technology improves and the ability to have.00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:35.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:56.000Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, larger seating capacity. Uh, I think there's a real benefit there in many different aspects. So, um, that lift in particular, we didn't actually increase our uphill capacity that much. We went from, I think, a design of 2,400 to, I think, that lift is 2,880, so.00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:04.000Dennis Eshbaugh: We'll round it to 2,900. Um, but the comfort of the chairs, the seating, the ability for large groups, uh, it's been a winner for us.00:08:57.000 --> 00:08:59.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:20.000Stuart Winchester: Has it changed the way people use the mountain and the way they distribute themselves? So in other words, given the choice of the six right here or the four here, do you find more people going here than you used to or any other patterns you've noticed?00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:24.000Stuart Winchester: And how that might have shifted how skiers use Holiday Valley.00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:39.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah, I don't believe it actually has changed the pattern. I mean, Mardi Gras is a really critical lift, because it links the main base area, although there are, you know, four different ways that you can access the mountain, you know, parking areas and access lifts.00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:42.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, really five, um, with, uh, the shoe chair.00:09:42.000 --> 00:10:03.000Dennis Eshbaugh: But what it has done is it's made it convenient and it's a big stepping stone. A, if you arrive here, whether you've got a group of family and you're trying to go up and get into the upper area or get into Hidden Valley or whatever, it's also the lift, basically the transitional lift. We have a wonderful beginner's area.00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:13.000Dennis Eshbaugh: You know, beginner terrain is critically important, in our opinion, and it's a great transition lift to get people up into a really good variety of green terrain.00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:26.000Stuart Winchester: At this point in Holiday Valley, you know, I made the comments when I was introducing you, Dennis, that Holiday Valley is often, maybe always, the busiest ski area in New York. At this point in your evolution.00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:41.000Stuart Winchester: is it more about just taking better care of the skiers that are here, or you still consider Holiday Valley to be in growth mode as far as, yes, we can handle more capacity? So when you get a six-pack, is it about shortening lift lines, or is it about saying, hey, we have a six-pack, more people come here?00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:52.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, that's an important question. And I guess our view, my view, is it's sort of like a tree.00:10:52.000 --> 00:11:05.000Dennis Eshbaugh: If it's not growing, it's dying, and so you always have to… you always have to look at growth, but… but we've always been believers in evolution versus revolution, and… and so as you evolve this area, um…00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:14.000Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, I don't think there's an opportunity for double-digit growth, but we can certainly continue to grow, serve more people.00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:24.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, watch the transition of how people ski when, their patterns, uh, and make sure that we're providing, uh, what they're, you know, meeting their expectation, providing what they want.00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:34.000Stuart Winchester: So I have the trail map up for those watching on stormskiing.com, or on YouTube at Storm Ski Journal, which helps make a little more sense. And Holiday Valley, it's this…00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:50.000Stuart Winchester: It doesn't really look like this, but the trail map does a really good job of capturing everything without having insets and all these different things, so it really skis like a bunch of distinct ski areas, so it kind of looks like a long ridge on this trail map, but it skis much more like a bunch of.00:11:50.000 --> 00:12:10.000Stuart Winchester: different peaks. So, you know, Mardi Gras, Dennis, this is… those are your fourth generation Lyft, and Holiday Valley has upgraded Lyfts at a faster clip than probably anyone in the country, or at least as fast as anyone in the country, and you're on your fourth generation of many different Lyfts. You recently announced what I believe is a.00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:16.000Stuart Winchester: third generation for Cindy's Quad. Do you want to tell us about what's going on at Cindy's?00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:33.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, I'm glad to, and I also had to give you a compliment, uh, Stuart. You do a better job of keeping track of the statistics than I do, um, and that is important, and, you know, that generation of lift and that evolution. Cindy's, you know, first started as a double chair, went to a quad, um.00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:46.000Dennis Eshbaugh: And, uh, uh, that lift is… was 1991 when it was installed, and yeah, this is the third edition. Um, so, yeah, what happens and why? Um…00:12:46.000 --> 00:13:02.000Dennis Eshbaugh: You know, the first thing is we're fortunate, I guess, that we're in a position where we can continue to evolve the technology of our lifts. Every lift, whether it's 10 years or whether it's 60 years old, safety is really all about maintenance and operation.00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:18.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, and that's critical for every operator today, and I think everybody in the industry knows and appreciates that. Um, so what do you accomplish with a new detachable? Well, convenience, of course, is wonderful. Speed, uphill, I mean, the throughput.00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:30.000Dennis Eshbaugh: for, um, you know, the avid skier, the expert skier, um, is amazing, and I think it's important for the expectation of today's guests. Um…00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:45.000Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, expert skiers in, you know, the era of the 70s and 80s, on a typical Saturday, you were lucky to make 20 runs, because you spent most of the day in lift lines or on a slow-moving lift.00:13:45.000 --> 00:14:00.000Dennis Eshbaugh: And, you know, time is critically important to people. People ski shorter days than ever, and that… I don't see that changing. Um, and… and so an avid skier can come here on that Saturday and get those 20 runs in an hour and a half.00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:02.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Now, um…00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:17.000Dennis Eshbaugh: the beauty, I guess, of a detachable or high-speed, A, it allows the throughput, increases the uphill, uh, reduces the time, increases, basically, your ability as a skier to get up and down. Um, but then what it really also does for every skier.00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:35.000Dennis Eshbaugh: that, you know, that, uh, comfortable load and unload, it goes a long way. And, uh, it's great for families, great for new skiers, great, you know, to get into the sport. Quite frankly, as an advanced skier, I think probably you see this, Stuart, uh, it's easy to sometimes not pay attention.00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:39.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Uh, because lifts are so easy to get on and off today.00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:39.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:43.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you know, last time I spoke with you, Dennis.00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yodler, the Yodler Express quad, was 2 years old, and that had replaced a 20-year-old fixed-grip quad, and I asked you.00:14:53.000 --> 00:15:08.000Stuart Winchester: did you have hesitation about doing that, or something like that? And you said, yeah, I really, you know, pressed the team on why we needed to do that. So, here we are, 5 years after, and Cindy's is not quite as short as Yodler, but.00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:14.000Stuart Winchester: It's a fairly short lift for a detachable, 2,000-some feet, so…00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:22.000Stuart Winchester: I guess you did find there was enough to like about a short detachable to continue building them, or are there other factors at play here?00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:38.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, there are always other factors, but it starts with the customer. And one of the messages that I heard, actually a good friend of mine that is an avid skier and excellent skier.00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:53.000Dennis Eshbaugh: He said Yoda Yodler basically transformed his scheme because of, because of his ability to get um more runs in more vertical in a shorter period of time. And, you know, I, I personally, I wasn't driven.00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:15:53.000 --> 00:16:08.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Uh, from that perspective as much, but I recognize the importance. Uh, in the case of Cindy's, um, it's more blue terrain, uh, although it has access to, to other, uh, little steeper pitches. Um, it's got a, uh, ratio off of it, and uh.00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:13.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Fox Fire, which is important terrain.00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:24.000Dennis Eshbaugh: But the other thing that happens as you change a lift out, in our case, I mean, we've got a skier that's been here a long time. We're continuing, you know, to try to make it better, perfect what we can.00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:30.000Dennis Eshbaugh: it gives us an opportunity, um, to make some changes, which we have. You know, that first alignment.00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:37.000Dennis Eshbaugh: When the original double was built in 1978, the area was different at that point in time.00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:58.000Dennis Eshbaugh: interconnecting lifts up at the top were different. The golf course and the summer aspect was different. The circulation, etc. So one of the beauties of replacing Cindy's and and putting this this new lift in this year is we're making significant improvements in the infrastructure base area around it, changing some things in the golf course and the number one tee.00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:15.000Dennis Eshbaugh: moving the base of the lift so we have an improved milling area for the skier, as well as we're actually going to gain some beginner terrain because of the former alignment, and moving it slightly west. So there are a lot of things that many of our skiers might not.00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:20.000Dennis Eshbaugh: initially noticed, but they will make the ski resort better.00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:30.000Stuart Winchester: So, for folks familiar with Cindy's in this busy area right here, the load station will move in what direction from where it is right now?00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:44.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, from where your arrow is now, it'll move slightly right. And then if you move even further right, you're actually in the area where the number one tee is for the golf course. And so, you know, there's a few things. There's a golf irrigation.00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:17:44.000 --> 00:18:00.000Dennis Eshbaugh: a reservoir right there that's getting relocated to open that up, and then we're going to have the ability, if you… if you look at the alignment of Mardi Gras, just to the west or to the right, uh, north wind slope parallels that, and again, this NIHU's map, which is an outstanding map, does not.00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:18.000Dennis Eshbaugh: reflect the complexity and the depth of the mountain faces. But Northwind is a really important slope that parallels Mardi Gras, and it's going to allow us to actually improve that bottom and interconnect where it comes into Cindy's, what we call the East Complex. So, yeah, it's, you know, these are small things, but I think.00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:16.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:23.000Dennis Eshbaugh: I think they're really good things to make good skiing, better skiing.00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:28.000Stuart Winchester: And so you have a slightly different load, you're still unloading at the same spot up top, Dennis?00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:47.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Actually, we moved the top as well. We are changing some of the alignment, the tree line. The lift is no longer going to be on the Cindy Slope. It's actually going to be further west of that, and it will come off really at the eastern top, or when you're looking at the map on the left.00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:30.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:40.000Stuart Winchester: Oh.00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:58.000Dennis Eshbaugh: top edge of Foxfire, right where your, uh, arrow is. Um, it will still have good access to the Cindy's, uh, mountaintop, uh, warming hut. It'll have great access onto the slope.00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:03.000Dennis Eshbaugh: the lift towers disappear off of Cindy's Slope, which we're really excited about.00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:06.000Stuart Winchester: Did they go… you're cutting a new line in the woods?00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:17.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Yes, yep. Yeah, actually underway right now. We don't have final engineering drawings, but we do have tower alignments, profiles are complete.00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool.00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:31.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, and so our hope is that we will actually get the foundations for the tower line in, uh, in October and November. Um, you know, the Europeans have been doing 2-year lift installs for some time.00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that's true.00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:36.000Dennis Eshbaugh: And it was slow to reach the US.00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:36.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:54.000Dennis Eshbaugh: But when we did that on Mardi Gras, it was really wonderful in what it did to allow, I guess, a better pattern, if you will, as far as schedule of construction, direction of the top and bottom terminals, you know, and all the equipment that interfaces with that.00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:59.000Stuart Winchester: Um, so you're actually doing this one in a two-year cycle as well, so…00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:16.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah, if we get this tower line complete, and we're a little tight on time on this, but I think we will. We'll have the foundation lines ready, and I just lost power for the fourth time this morning. You can probably see that on your screen, Stuart.00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:13.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.000Stuart Winchester: I can, but your connection's still good, so…00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:17.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Okay.00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:25.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah, well, we'll see how the auxiliary battery backup holds up.00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, we'll see, uh, if a more, if a more important service at, at Holiday Valley needs, uh, that energy than, than this podcast, then, uh, I can, I can connect with you later. So, okay, so we'll get a new Cindy's, that then sounds like it'll be ready for 28, 29 season?00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:43.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Yes, that's the goal was 27, 28. Yes, next.00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:39.000Stuart Winchester: Or…00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.000Stuart Winchester: Or 27, 28, I'm sorry.00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:52.000Stuart Winchester: 27, 28. Okay, perfect. So, at that point, Dennis, you're gonna have… Cindy's will be a 37-year-old fixed grip quad, right? This chair you take out.00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:45.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Yep. Yep.00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:57.000Stuart Winchester: And Holiday Valley, more than almost any other ski area.00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:01.000Stuart Winchester: that I'm aware of in the country. The only other one that's…00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:16.000Stuart Winchester: done this nearly as much as Deer Valley, has been really, really good about either repurposing your lifts on your own slopes, or selling them to other ski areas, and you did an inventory for me last year, and it was 8.00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:06.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Okay.00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:33.000Stuart Winchester: lifts that had gone on to other ski areas, and you said they were in, in Chile, and you, and that's the, uh, Coralco lift, the, the old Mardi Gras one, New York Mass, that's Catamount's, Catamount Quad, and that was the old, the older, that 20 year old, the older, uh, this, Cindy's double went up to.00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:50.000Stuart Winchester: Ragged and is now retired. Uh, and then the Schoolhouse double went to Four Seasons. That's unfortunately now a closed ski area. He is trying to sell it. Uh, maybe you can buy it back. Uh, and the, uh, Snow Pine double went to Toggenberg, which unfortunately is also closed, but as far as I know, the lift is still there.00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:59.000Stuart Winchester: I couldn't… I couldn't find which Lyfts you had sold to in West Virginia, Wisconsin, in Montana. I don't know if you remember them off the top of your head, but…00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:01.000Stuart Winchester: In every case.00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:08.000Stuart Winchester: These lifts have gone to ski areas that probably couldn't have afforded a brand new chairlift.00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:11.000Stuart Winchester: But still got…00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:19.000Stuart Winchester: a good enough new-use lift that they were able to refurbish to continue to evolve their mountain. So.00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:22.000Stuart Winchester: Just philosophically.00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:32.000Stuart Winchester: Is this something that's important to you? Is this just a business transaction? You're like, highest bidder, take off with the lift. How do you view this? Because it's been a pattern for decades.00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:50.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, I would say, you know, probably in the early days, it was a business transaction. I mean, you know, you watch… you always watch every dollar you have. That's important. You know, the old adage, if you watch the pennies, the dollars take care of themselves. Um, you know, that's an old adage. But, um…00:22:50.000 --> 00:23:05.000Dennis Eshbaugh: No, I think we look beyond that. You know, I think it's really important to a lot of areas to have, you know, a lift that's affordable, and a used lift, you know, can help them get there. You still have to comply, of course, with.00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:19.000Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, whatever the code requirements are. And, uh, you know, that's pretty straightforward. Um, the idea of repurposing, um, you know, I think is really important. I think it's good, you know, environmental stewardship.00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:24.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, I think it's good for the, you know, the operator and the industry in general.00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:36.000Dennis Eshbaugh: I also understand the complexity, especially for bigger companies. The manufacturers, you know, they have some concerns relative, I think, just to liability, because they're, so to speak, out of the loop.00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:44.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, uh, and there's certainly, you know, I think some scaries that would look at this and say, I… I…00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:57.000Dennis Eshbaugh: I'm not willing to accept the liability of selling a lift to someone else. Um, there's risk in everything we do. Um, you know, our belief is that it's good for other operators and good for the industry.00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:14.000Stuart Winchester: Do you think that you just have a higher risk tolerance than maybe the average ski area operator? Because you're also one of the few ski areas that still self-installs, as far as I'm aware, and I'm not, I guess, I'm not sure if you're doing that with Cindy's, but you do have a high degree of expertise there.00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:24.000Stuart Winchester: You've done this so much. I just wonder, do you have a higher risk tolerance for risk, or is the risk exaggerated?00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:27.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Yes?00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:41.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Uh, to all those questions. Um, so, yeah, why do we do it? Well, we do it because we have Jim Curtis as Director of Mountain Operations. This will be his 23rd lift installation. Jim started as a young man here.00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:47.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, and it has built probably more ski lifts than a lot of people that are in lift manufacturing business.00:24:47.000 --> 00:25:04.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Uh, so, yeah, we've got a team in, in, uh, Mountain Ops here that, you know, they're proud of their lift installations, they know their lifts inside and out. That serves us, our customer, and everyone, and, and quite frankly, you know, we're pretty proud of their work, and they're proud of their work.00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um…00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:13.000Dennis Eshbaugh: As far as the risk tolerance, you know, I think part of risk tolerance.00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:15.000Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, comes with…00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:31.000Dennis Eshbaugh: being a bit of a technocrat and really understanding what the risks are, measuring them, going through, you know, the process management, if you will, steps of saying, you know, what are the real risks? You have to also, you have to look at what you are risking, of course.00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:38.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, you've gotta have, uh, a solid team behind you. We've gotta…00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:50.000Dennis Eshbaugh: we've got a company, and our board has rarely transitioned, that has been incredibly consistent. It's a small group that stands behind what we do, and has for 60-some years.00:25:50.000 --> 00:26:03.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, so… yeah, the answer is yes to all of those things, but is there risk? Of course there's risk. Um, is it, uh, made, hopefully, um…00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:06.000Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, a sound decision? Yeah, we believe so.00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I, I'm, I'm just not aware of any move.00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:22.000Stuart Winchester: Moved chairlift that ever got the original seller in legal trouble and in a lot of the smaller ski area operators that I speak with, and we were both up at the ski areas of New York and Pennsylvania convention last week.00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:25.000Stuart Winchester: And one of their biggest…00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:36.000Stuart Winchester: concerns is that as consolidation accelerates, and you have large players owning a lot of mountains, some of these large players seem unwilling to.00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:39.000Stuart Winchester: Put their lifts on the secondary market.00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:40.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:46.000Stuart Winchester: it's almost at the point where in New York and in Pennsylvania, it might be almost an existential.00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:55.000Stuart Winchester: crisis, because they have 60-year-old haul lifts, and there won't be anything to replace them. So when you have something like Cindy's, I mean, I'd imagine the first thing you think of is, can we use.00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:08.000Stuart Winchester: And if not, what does that process look like? Do you… I imagine you know everybody in New York. Do you reach out and say, hey, you want this lift, or do you just advertise it? How does that… like, if someone's listening to this and they're like, oh man, I want that 2,000-foot-long quad.00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:28.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, yeah, that's a very good point. It's not like, yeah, you call it up and, you know, ski lifts are us, or whatever, right? It lists the thing. We actually are just in the process of putting together, basically, a listing of, you know, what the original equipment is, the current equipment.00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:38.000Dennis Eshbaugh: the condition of the lift, the hours of operation, etc. Um, there are a handful of really good people in the industry that are involved in lift construction.00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:55.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, there are, I guess, probably 4 or 5 scaries that have already, uh, approached, uh, us and said we'd like to be contacted. Uh, I actually… I had an individual that I've known a long time, uh, reach out this week and say.00:27:55.000 --> 00:28:06.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, could we make a deal with you before… before the lift is listed? Um, which is a nice problem to have, uh, whether or not that works out, I don't know. Um…00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:18.000Dennis Eshbaugh: So, yeah, it is a bit of word of mouth, though, actually. And we'll see how it goes, right? I'll know more six months from now.00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:32.000Stuart Winchester: So, just from talking to people around the industry, your Holiday Valley has a really excellent reputation for lift maintenance, so people are very happy to buy a lift from you. I'm gonna ask a question that you may not answer. I'm wondering…00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:39.000Stuart Winchester: if you can tell us anything about how much these tend to sell for. And the reason I'm asking…00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:42.000Stuart Winchester: Is because a lot of the larger operators, uh.00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:47.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, they will… when they take down an old lift, they will auction the chairlifts.00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:56.000Stuart Winchester: And they will put them online. And then they will donate all that money to charity, which is great. And they say, we donated $75,000 to XYZ. Fine.00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:59.000Stuart Winchester: But I'm curious, if they would have sold the Lyft.00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:01.000Stuart Winchester: and donated the proceeds.00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:07.000Stuart Winchester: how much more valuable is the intact machine? And I know sometimes a Lyft is just toast.00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:13.000Stuart Winchester: But, you know, Bill, not too long ago, took out a 40-year-old fixed-grip quad at Mount Snow, and…00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:25.000Stuart Winchester: basically recycled it. So… so is there anything you can tell us about how much the lift is worth versus the chairs for something like, say, Yodler when it was 20 years old and you sold it, or Cindy's, which is about double that?00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:37.000Dennis Eshbaugh: I think that's harder to do today than it was 10 years ago. There were more lifts, I think, available and being sold, and the market was probably better understood or better known. It's been interesting when I've talked.00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:46.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Uh, with my peers in the industry that… that are really involved in lift construction in the… in the last 6 months or a year, um…00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:52.000Dennis Eshbaugh: everyone's afraid to give you, so what should the list sell for? And everyone starts looking at their toes.00:29:52.000 --> 00:30:01.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, you know, from an experience standpoint, uh, I would say, uh, Lyft would sell anywhere from.00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:17.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Bottom would be 5% of value of a new one if the lift is really in poor condition, needs a lot of TLC. 10% of a value of a new lift is probably a common number, and 15 or 20 if it's exceptional.00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:20.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, so…00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:32.000Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, what does that mean? I would guess that lift, the machinery for that lift today, uh, probably would be in the range of contract of $2.5 to $3 million to buy a new fixed-grip quad today of that size.00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:33.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:36.000Dennis Eshbaugh: But I'm not really sure.00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:37.000Stuart Winchester: Damn.00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:44.000Dennis Eshbaugh: And so but I'll I'll throw that. That's a lot of a lot of words. 10%. So.00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:42.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:53.000Stuart Winchester: That's extremely helpful, actually, and I've never heard anyone break it down quite like that before. So, when you make these deals, and let's say somebody does buy Cindy's, and…00:30:53.000 --> 00:31:03.000Stuart Winchester: I know you have that expertise to self-install. Would you then take it down and then offer to help them put it back up if they wanted, or do you just sell it and say, get your own engineering?00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:14.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah, that's… that is a very good and important point. Um, we only take them down, uh, because we want to control everything on our property. And when we sell the lift, it is FOB, our parking lot.00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:07.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:28.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, we have equipment to help them load. For example, the Mardi Gras lift that went to Chile, um, was packed into containers. It was fascinating. Uh, and the team that came and did that did an outstanding job.00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:45.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, so we do not offer, uh, any outside, uh, off-premise. Uh, we really… we've got our hands full keeping track of our own equipment and machinery, and uh, uh, we have control of that, we know our systems, but we're really not set up to be out on the road, uh, installing.00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:47.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Installing ski lifts for others.00:31:47.000 --> 00:32:05.000Stuart Winchester: And I'd imagine that would change that liability equation quite a bit. I had Jimmy Ackerson, the general manager of Caralco in Chile, who bought your old Mardi Gras lift on the pod, and he talked about that process of moving the lift from Western New York to Chile. And I mean, it took them a couple of years to do everything because it was such a distance.00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:05.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Mm-hmm.00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:10.000Stuart Winchester: So that was a really impressive project. So let me…00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:12.000Stuart Winchester: I'll ask you…00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:27.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Before you ask the question, I'm just gonna add, and I think Jimmy, and I listened to that podcast, you did a great job with him. He's an impressive guy. And they did an outstanding job with that lift. They needed some US support and assistance to get it done.00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:14.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:19.000Stuart Winchester: Thank you.00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:32.000Dennis Eshbaugh: But they really did a great job in that install.00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it looks really cool. Have you gotten down there to ride it?00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:37.000Dennis Eshbaugh: I have not. I have not.00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:43.000Stuart Winchester: What a trip that would be, right? To ride your old Lyft in South America. So let me give you a…00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:38.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah.00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Yes.00:32:43.000 --> 00:33:00.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, well, it's not really a hypothetical, but I'm, I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on this. So, so Vale Resorts is going to install two new lifts at Park City. They've been trying to put these lifts in for a long time. So they are taking out a 1996 Garaventa CTEC six pack and replacing it with an eight pack. That's the silver load ch.00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:11.000Stuart Winchester: They are taking out two Garaventa CTEC triple chairs. One is a 95, one is a 93, and they're replacing those two lifts with one lift, a six pack.00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:16.000Stuart Winchester: So to me, I sit here and look at these and I say, okay.00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:25.000Stuart Winchester: 30-year-old fixed-grip triples are probably in great shape, especially for a mountain like Park City that doesn't have night skiing. Uh, that 1996 six-pack.00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:33.000Stuart Winchester: certainly probably didn't have as many hours on it as your 93, I think it was, Lyft that you… it was a 96 as well.00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:36.000Dennis Eshbaugh: It was a 96 as well, but a day-night operating ski lift, yes.00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, sure. Yeah.00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:44.000Stuart Winchester: So I'm trying to lean on Vale a little bit and say, don't scrap these things. Somebody needs them. Somebody will pay you real green money for them.00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:58.000Stuart Winchester: If Vail was hesitating, and you just… if you had a consultation with someone trying to decide what to do with these lists, what would you tell them about your experience, and about how concerned or not they should be, and the sort of…00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:01.000Stuart Winchester: goodwill they could get by selling these.00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:05.000Dennis Eshbaugh: So I'm advising Vail.00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:20.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Wow, that's impressive because Vale, of course, it's an incredible company with some of the best and the brightest. And that question would be better answered by my friend Bill Rock, who does an outstanding job as the president of Vale.00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:22.000Stuart Winchester: Yes. He's been on the pod.00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:23.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, I… I think…00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:39.000Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, I'm not… I'm not in Vail's shoes. Um, that is a big company, and they have done an incredible job with the structure and to make the resorts work. Um, and, you know, part of being successful, of course, is being true.00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:43.000Dennis Eshbaugh: You know, to basically your own mission, and what you can and can't do, and do well.00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:50.000Dennis Eshbaugh: So, you know, would I like to see Vale sell lifts that you just described? Yes.00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:51.000Dennis Eshbaugh: um…00:34:51.000 --> 00:35:08.000Dennis Eshbaugh: But I'm not sure that I could give Bill or anyone else in the organization advice on how to do it. I think that it gets more complicated because the manufacturers are very hesitant to support used lifts, and I think one of the things that's important for buying a used lift for a skier, if they're going to install one, is.00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:27.000Dennis Eshbaugh: They need to make sure that they have a pipeline and support system for parts and service, etc. And now, if Jimmy Ackerson can do that at Caralco, I think anyone can do it, right? Because he's in South America, and he's got all sorts of barriers.00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:41.000Dennis Eshbaugh: but… but that is important, and… and I understand if Vail doesn't want to be in the middle of that. Um, uh, would I like to see them sell their lifts? Yes. Uh, but if they… whether they should or not.00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:43.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Only they all can decide.00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:49.000Stuart Winchester: So let me ask you this question. What sort of goodwill or good karma or just…00:35:49.000 --> 00:36:05.000Stuart Winchester: you know, friends have you made selling to places like Toggenberg and Four Seasons and Catamount and Ragged that don't have the cash flow that Holiday Valley does, I'm assuming, and that probably helped them take the next step in their… well, two of them are out of business, so maybe not, but…00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:06.000Stuart Winchester: Oh.00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:06.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Right.00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:09.000Stuart Winchester: What sort of goodwill has they gotten you?00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:09.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Alright.00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:21.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, well, I think probably some industry goodwill. Certainly, the long-tenured, uh, people in the industry, um, I think respect that. Um, you know.00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:14.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:37.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Tom Sanford and I have been friends for decades, and he's an outstanding guy, and he's done a lot of impressive things in this industry, including being the Eastern rep for Doppelmeyer for a long, long time. Tom still does some consulting and work, and uh…00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:47.000Dennis Eshbaugh: You know, I think if there's a guy that would know how to put the pieces together to get a lift reinstalled, it would be Tom. There are other experts as well.00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:45.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:47.000 --> 00:37:03.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Do I get goodwill from Tom when we sell a lift and we see that happen? Absolutely, because, you know, he's a believer in skiing and the industry, and he does a great job of helping every operator, whether you're Vail, or whether you're the smallest area.00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:14.000Dennis Eshbaugh: whether, you know, you know, in the case of John Goodfellow, who decided to retire and didn't have a successor at Four Seasons, and that Morvig lift is now standing there looking for a new buyer.00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:29.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, but I also appreciate that John's, you know, situation, and it's time to call it a day, that his land, you know, outside of Mandalus and Syracuse is far more valuable.00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:33.000Dennis Eshbaugh: It's something other than a small ski area.00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:33.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:50.000Stuart Winchester: All right, Dennis, I'll ask you one more Lyft question, then I have one more thing for you. This has been the Great Holiday Valley Lyft discussion of 2026. Any insight on what might be next? Shoot Quad is 33 years old, Sunrise is 34, and then.00:37:50.000 --> 00:38:00.000Stuart Winchester: Snow Pine, I believe, is on its third location. I think it rotated through Mardi Gras and Morningstar, so that one's, I don't know, maybe 40 years old or something, but it…00:37:58.000 --> 00:38:01.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Has a new, has a new motor room.00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:02.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:05.000Dennis Eshbaugh: That new term, the whole new base terminal. But very true. Yep.00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:03.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:11.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah. Okay, so any of those, if you're thinking about what you're gonna do next, or you're like, stop spending my money, Stu, go.00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:26.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, yeah, they're all on the list. What's interesting, I talked about, I enjoy riding a T-bar. You're always skiing, right? I'm a tiny minority of skiers today.00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:14.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:21.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm, yeah.00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:40.000Dennis Eshbaugh: it's funny to me, Cindy's has great exposure, it's a wonderful lift to ski, especially in the afternoon, because it gets great sun, has great visibility, and it's a ride that's long enough that you can have a conversation.00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:59.000Dennis Eshbaugh: And that is one negative about detachables. I mean, it's like you've got to have an elevator speech ready, right? Because you're not on the lift very long. I would say of our customers that have talked to me about Cindy's. For everyone that has said, I can't believe you're taking away that lift and putting another detachable lift.00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:47.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:06.000Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, I won't be able to talk to my friend. Well, there's 3 or 4 people that's saying, thank God for getting rid of the slow lift.00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:21.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, I do think, though, that those lifts that you just named, whether it's Eagle or Chute, um, Snow Pine, there's still a value there for a fixed grip lift and a purpose. Um, I think sometimes people, avid skiers that are making a lot of turns and a lot of runs.00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:36.000Dennis Eshbaugh: will then go and look for a fixed grip to kind of catch their breath a bit. Um, but with all that said, um, I would say probably, uh, would be Eagle would be next in line, and it's also the oldest, uh, of that lineage.00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:38.000Stuart Winchester: And eagles…00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:41.000Stuart Winchester: a shorter lift, right? So…00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:43.000Dennis Eshbaugh: It is. Yes, it is. Yep, yep.00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:53.000Stuart Winchester: And would you be looking at… I mean, I guess it's… it's a little longer than Yodler, so would you be looking at detach over here, or… or is what you're saying here is… is we're going to consider each lift, we're not committing one way or the other.00:39:52.000 --> 00:40:03.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah, I wouldn't commit today, but I'm… but I'm confident that the pressures from, you know, our team would be… it needs to be a detach, that's who we are.00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Okay.00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:06.000Dennis Eshbaugh: That's what our customer expects.00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:07.000Stuart Winchester: Right, right.00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:22.000Stuart Winchester: All right, Dennis, last thing I want to ask you about today, and that's been enough lift talk, I think, for now, but you are one of the most prominent ski areas in America that is still not part of any multi-mountain pass.00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:31.000Stuart Winchester: And I believe when I asked you this question in 2023, your answer was, never say never. You know, we're aware of it. We've been approached.00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:37.000Stuart Winchester: Any update on that? Any current thinking about multi-mountain passes? Ready to say yes or no either way?00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:52.000Dennis Eshbaugh: The answer today is no, but it is also never say never. I don't think that's changed. I think obviously they continue to gain presence and broader reach.00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:40.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:40:52.000 --> 00:41:04.000Dennis Eshbaugh: I think probably half of the ski areas, uh, in the US now are part of some sort of multi-area pass. Uh, so the independents definitely are shrinking. Um, there's a purpose.00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:09.000Dennis Eshbaugh: We're fortunate, I think, in that, you know, we started…00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:26.000Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, following with the night programs of great introduction, low, you know, for for the beginner, not not low for the introduction of skier for for beginner skiers. With multiple day ticketing right? Primarily nights. It's evolved beyond that and the complexity of what we offer.00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:38.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Fortunately, today, between, you know, our customer base and what we offer, we're able to stay singularly focused on what we do. And I do worry a little bit from a…00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:50.000Dennis Eshbaugh: customer perspective, um, you don't want to overcomplicate life for the customer. Um, you know, you want to provide the best game you can. You need to be true to who you are and your security, and we're all different.00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:44.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:57.000Dennis Eshbaugh: And fortunately today, we're still fiercely independent, it's working.00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:58.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:08.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, and we have no plan to change. Uh, but I do think that never say never, you know, you always have to keep that in the back of your mind, and if you don't, the world will move on without you.00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:19.000Stuart Winchester: So, I wonder what it looks like in the other direction. So, it's been 5 years since Vail bought Seven Springs, which I imagine you both pull equally probably from Cleveland, right? That's sort of a… you could go either way?00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:20.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Yes.00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:37.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and then Vail also has three ski areas around Cleveland, Boston Mills, Brandywine, and Alpine Valley that skiers could do as, like, a local, then go down to Seven Springs. I'm wondering if you've heard either way over the last five years, anecdotally, or I don't know if you have data, that if you've either lost customers to the Epic Pass from that.00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:44.000Stuart Winchester: Or gain some, who said maybe they don't want to be part of something that is so national of a coalition, they just want their local mountain.00:42:45.000 --> 00:43:05.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, there we go. The answer is yes. We've lost some and we've gained some. You know, I'd like to think I'm smart enough not to pick a fight with Vail Resorts, right? But we don't need to pick a fight with them. You know, they are who they are. That pass, the epic pass, and how it's evolved and what they offer is incredible.00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:18.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Uh, we have a lot of our customers that buy Epic Passes. Um, have we gained skiers? Yes, our market share from Pennsylvania has increased, uh, as well as, uh, Ohio has increased.00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:33.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, does it have anything to do with Vail and the Epic Pass? I'm not so sure. I think it's probably more impacted by the change in the Canadian traveler. Um, and, you know, there's some border issues, there are concerns from the, uh, the Canadian perspective.00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:34.000Dennis Eshbaugh: And their dollar is soft.00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:50.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, so, yeah, I don't mean to belittle that question. It's a good question, but the answer is yes, we've gained some and we've lost some. There are some people that, you know, are saying, oh, they're independent, I'm going there. Uh, is that enough to make a ski area successful? I'm not so confident.00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:47.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:43:50.000 --> 00:44:10.000Stuart Winchester: Do you think it's also a factor, Dennis, that… I think that your snow is just a lot more consistent than Seven Springs, and I don't know if it was historically as far apart as it is now, because they're on that high plateau in western PA. They don't seem to be… they seem to be getting more rain these days, less big dumps, and you're still getting 180 inches a year. Do you think that…00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:13.000Stuart Winchester: Customers just going where the snow is.00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:27.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, I do think snow is critically important. I think snow making is part of it. I think we've done a really good job of staying focused. You know, the 700 gun system and over 50% of that is automated. Natural snow, though, trumps all.00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:40.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Right? But you've got to have a base to work with to begin with. So, snow conditions? Absolutely. And, you know, that's incumbent on every one of us to make sure that we put the best snow surfers out we can every morning.00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:32.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:42.000Dennis Eshbaugh: So…00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:53.000Stuart Winchester: Well, you do a heck of a job, Dennis, and I promise I will not drive past Holiday Valley again without stopping in. So, thanks so much for all this today. I always appreciate the conversation and the candor, and I hope you get your power back.00:44:52.000 --> 00:45:08.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, it's on at the moment, so hopefully it stays on. Right. Stuart, thank you. You do an incredible job. I, uh… I don't want to give you a big head, but there's nobody in our business that does a better job, A, of understanding the stats and keeping track of them, and uh…00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:59.000Stuart Winchester: All right, Dennis.00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:00.000Stuart Winchester: Well, thank you.00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:11.000Dennis Eshbaugh: You always ask good questions. So my best to you.00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:14.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, thank you very much, Dennis. Appreciate all that. Take care.00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:13.000Dennis Eshbaugh: Bye-bye.00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:33.000Stuart Winchester: All right, that was Dennis Eshbaugh at Holiday Valley, New York. So, you know, I don't mean to keep, well, I guess I do mean to keep hitting bail over the head with this Park City Lyft stuff. And believe me, I am going, I am reaching out to try to get Park City's perspective on this. I'm just.00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:36.000Stuart Winchester: seeding that conversation with…00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:51.000Stuart Winchester: By putting a lot of thoughts out into the atmosphere that, hey, Vale, let's not just take these lifts and solid chairs for 300 bucks and scrap the rest. Let's see if there's someplace else they can use them. If it's, if it's a Vale ski area, great.00:45:51.000 --> 00:46:08.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but if it's not a Vail ski area, there are lots and lots of places that would love to have a look at those 30 year old lifts and we'll, and we'll pay you good money for them. So, all right, we do not have reader reaction today because I recorded this episode on Friday, same day I recorded the Mount Southington.00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:17.000Stuart Winchester: Episode, and so I did the reader reaction then. But I will be back on Monday with a conversation with…00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:22.000Stuart Winchester: the General Manager of Mountain Creek, New Jersey, Evan Kovach.00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:26.000Stuart Winchester: Evan and I have been trying to make that one work for a really long time.00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:39.000Stuart Winchester: If you want to support the Storm, please go to stormskiing.com and subscribe to the Storm Skiing Newsletter. That will get you new posts and podcasts right to your inbox the moment I publish them.00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:48.000Stuart Winchester: And then if you like that, if you like the free version, you can upgrade to the paid tier, which is the very best way to support the Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast.00:46:48.000 --> 00:47:04.000Stuart Winchester: And that is the only way to interact with the pod by leaving a comment on the article at stormskiing. com that comes along with this podcast. And it is the only way to read every single thing that I write. Oh, 80 percent of the written content tends to be below the paywall.00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:11.000Stuart Winchester: You can grab some storm swag at stormskiing.myshopify.com for a hat, hoodie, shirt, whatever else we have on there.00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:17.000Stuart Winchester: And please follow the storm on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok @stormskijournal.00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:22.000Stuart Winchester: Until next time, stay well, stay safe. I'm Stuart Winchester, and I'll talk to you again very soon. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

WhoJay Dougherty, President and General Manager of Mount Southington, ConnecticutDate RecordedOct. 2, 2026About Mount SouthingtonOwned by: Multiple shareholders descended from the ski area's foundersYear founded: 1964Pass affiliations:* Snow Pass – 2 days, no blackouts* Snow Triple Play – up to 2 days, no blackoutsThese two passes have a lot of overlap, but completely different rosters:Base elevation: 210 feetSummit elevation: 571 feetVertical drop: 361 feetSkiable acres: 51 acresAverage annual snowfall: 40 inchesLift count: 8 (1 triple, 3 doubles, 4 carpets) – view Lift Blog's inventory of Mount Southington's lift fleetWhy I interviewed himA lot of ski areas are beautiful because they're set within nature's masterpieces. Mount Southington is beautiful because it's not: How cool is that? A ski area in the middle of a neighborhood. A neighborhood that most of us could probably afford to live in. Kids grow up across the street. If it snows enough, they can probably ski from their front door to the lifts. Good thing the ski hill is already there. We rarely build cool things next to where we actually live anymore. But it's hard to get rid of a ski area once it's built, unless it fails. Southington [Suh-thing-ton] is not going anywhere. Three of the bump's chairlifts are under 20 years old (two are younger than five), and a replacement for the fourth - Stardust - starts, well, any second now (a new top terminal is sitting in the parking lot). A few dozen neighborhood ski areas like this still exist across America, mostly east of the Mississippi. Sometimes the neighbors hate them, especially during all-night snowmaking season. But very few people living in a house near a ski area today would have been surprised to find themselves living near a ski area, since the facility would have in most cases preceded them. Maybe a few even moved in to be close to skiing. It's cool to imagine being one of them, waking up to morning turns three months per year. How cool - like having a lake house on a kinda small lake. It's not Aspen, but most of us aren't billionaires, and it's nice to think that, in a few far-flung corners of America, there's a backdoor to that sort of life that no one's really checking.Additional resources* New England Ski History details Mount Southington's early days.* A bit more on Southington's Northstar lift, received second-hand from Craigmeur, New Jersey, migrating for its third life as Lost Valley, Maine's Chair 3.* Somehow all my Mount Southington photos have vanished into the digital void, but Instapost preserves this shot of a really awesome sunset from my 2021 visit. Top of the Stardust chair:TranscriptsThere are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don't know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.ZoomStuart Winchester: My guest today has been president and general manager of Mount Southington, Connecticut since 2014.00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:37.000Stuart Winchester: Established in 1964, Mount Southington offers 51 acres of skiable terrain served by four chairlifts and several surface lifts. Jay Doherty is my guest. Jay, welcome to the storm. You are the first Connecticut representative to ever be on the podcast, not.00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:36.000Jay Dougherty: Okay.00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:42.000Stuart Winchester: for any reason other than I haven't been able to figure out who to talk to, so thank you very much for coming on today.00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:45.000Jay Dougherty: Oh, absolutely. I'm excited to be here. Excited to join you.00:03:44.000 --> 00:04:01.000Stuart Winchester: And you're a true Connecticut guy. We were chatting a little bit, and you said that Southington, and I don't know if I'm even pronouncing that right, is in — OK, there we go. There we go. All right, see, this is why I need to get you on the pod, because otherwise I mess up simple things.00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:56.000Jay Dougherty: It's Southern Vin. Yeah, there you go. It's all good.00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:59.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, exactly.00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:06.000Stuart Winchester: From right down the street, he said, tell us about Southington and what it means to you. Southington.00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:25.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, so I'm one of those fortunate few to get, have the opportunity to run the actual ski area that I grew up at. You know, I've had a season's pass here since I was probably seven, eight years old. You know, and then I worked, this was my first job was in the rental department here. So it means a lot to me and about something that's got a great community connection.00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:26.000Jay Dougherty: Oh.00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:37.000Stuart Winchester: And did you… I noted that you've been general manager since 2014. That's as far back as I could find your history online. Did you work there as a lifty in high school or anything? Was it your first job?00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:52.000Jay Dougherty: I did, yeah, so it was my first job, I worked in the rental department as a technician, um, and then I was going to college for elementary ed, um, didn't really know what I wanted to do, and my parents were like, well, I gotta do something. So I'm like, yeah, alright, you know, there's a shortage of.00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:04:52.000 --> 00:05:09.000Jay Dougherty: male, young elementary school teacher. So I'm like, that sounds like a great opportunity. But I was working here and got offered a year-round position painting lifts. And I fell in love with it at that point. And then I found a college program that was just starting out with Green Mountain College in connection with Killington.00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:01.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:19.000Jay Dougherty: Uh, and I ended up going there, and, you know, I graduated 2004, uh, worked for Killington for a very short while, and then came back here as Assistant Mountain Manager.00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:34.000Stuart Winchester: So talk to us a little bit about who owns Mount Southington. There's a really good, you know, New England Ski History, this site does a great job with the origin stories and there's a little bit on your site about the doctor and his wife, Dr. Harold Richmond and his wife who started it.00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:27.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah.00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:34.000Jay Dougherty: Oh.00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:38.000Stuart Winchester: I'm not sure who owns it now, but who do you report to?00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:48.000Jay Dougherty: Uh, this is the best story, because it's actually the kin of all the original owners. So all of their kids own it, and now we're starting to see actual, like, fourth generation, like…00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:45.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, really? Oh, cool.00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:48.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.00:05:48.000 --> 00:06:05.000Jay Dougherty: starting to enjoy the ski area. You see all the little kids and the nephews, cousins. So, uh, there's actually probably about 25, um, actual owners, um, but we're very organized down to, like, the board of directors that I answer to, that is comprised of those owners.00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:49.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:52.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:08.000Stuart Winchester: So are they still mostly local folks then?00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:14.000Jay Dougherty: No, not at all. Everybody's spread out, uh, basically worldwide at this point.00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:10.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:11.000Stuart Winchester: All over.00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:20.000Stuart Winchester: You know, I… maybe you're not able to speak for them on this, but I'll ask, because I'm seeing…00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:21.000Jay Dougherty: Hmm?00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:24.000Stuart Winchester: Family-owned ski areas all over the country. Go through a sort of, uh…00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:42.000Stuart Winchester: ownership existential crisis where maybe the parents were really into it, or the grandparents, or even the grandkids, but then along comes a generation that maybe just doesn't have an interest in running a ski area. You know, that's how Vail ends up with a lot of its ski areas. They just, they were family owned, and they get.00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:41.000Jay Dougherty: Yep.00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:57.000Stuart Winchester: rolled over. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, I'm just saying that it's a model that is uniquely challenged by, you know, generational transition. What's your sense from Southington and the owners that you work with that.00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:05.000Stuart Winchester: They would like to keep this, as it is, a community ski area owned by families for, you know, the foreseeable future, or not.00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:24.000Jay Dougherty: So what I can say is that they're great at advocating themselves, like the board of directors that advocates amongst the ownership group for involvement. Um, subcommittees, um, and obviously we always promote to them, like, you know, take advantage of this great opportunity that, like, your grandparents, again, or great-grandparents.00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:28.000Jay Dougherty: Ah, set you up for it. I mean, there's a lot of, um.00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:34.000Jay Dougherty: There's a lot of benefits to owning a portion of a ski area and being involved with it.00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:38.000Stuart Winchester: So as it is, it's had all this time to…00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:48.000Stuart Winchester: grow under the original owners, and I imagine it gives it a really cool character, and I want to talk about some of the character things in a minute, but can you tell us, and this is going to sound like a dumb question, Jay, but.00:07:49.000 --> 00:08:05.000Stuart Winchester: I think you're uniquely qualified to answer it, having grown up down the road. What is Mount Southington? And what I mean by that is you look in New England, there's a hundred ski areas, right? And you don't have to go very far north to get to some really big ski areas, some really nice ski areas, you know, Mount Snow, maybe the first one north if you're going.00:07:58.000 --> 00:07:59.000Jay Dougherty: Yes.00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:07.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:15.000Stuart Winchester: I think a lot of folks kind of look at skiing as, like, up and out. You know, I conquered Southington, so I don't have any reason to go back there, and I talk to people all.00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:21.000Stuart Winchester: who live in New Jersey, and I'm like, do you have a Mountain Creek Pass? They're like, no, why.00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:31.000Stuart Winchester: Right, it's not, you know, Jackson Hole, but it has 1,000 vertical feet and high-speed lifts. Now, Slingson's a different thing, but you have pretty new infrastructure. So, what do you think…00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:47.000Stuart Winchester: Southington is. Is it just a place for the kids? Do you try to make it nice for that? I know every skier has got that, uh, crew of dudes who are, like, 75 and then boot up every morning in the lodge. I think that's a Northeast thing. So, so what is Southington to you, and, and.00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:44.000Jay Dougherty: Yep.00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:50.000Stuart Winchester: What's your kind of core audience you focus on?00:08:50.000 --> 00:09:10.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah. So we're we're really the feeder, right? And and one of the things that we really strive to do, especially over the last decade. So my tenure as general manager is try to create pathways to keep everybody engaged a lot of times. What you'd find is you get that kid that gets to middle school, and they kind of like fall off, and they're no longer interested. So like.00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:26.000Jay Dougherty: What we've tried to do is create pathways for those interested in terrain parks. We've introduced like an intro to free ride or freestyle for those interested in alpine racing. There's intro programs for that. We have weekend.00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:47.000Jay Dougherty: snow sports, school programs like our wild things and all of those type of things. So really, what we focus on are the kids, but also families. I think it's a great family atmosphere. If I had to like, we do a lot of things, and we do a lot of things pretty well. I mean, we go everywhere from like high school racing.00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:45.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:09:47.000 --> 00:10:00.000Jay Dougherty: Um, we're the home of Connecticut's high school, like, at least the public school leagues. Uh, we have adult night racing, um, and then, like, we host USASA events, uh.00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:06.000Jay Dougherty: So it's it's it's a lot and it's a really orchestrated operation.00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:07.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:13.000Jay Dougherty: You gotta be, you know, sometimes, uh, you can almost think of it as, like, being a maestro, trying to keep everything moving, and…00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:28.000Jay Dougherty: So it's not stepping on something else, you know, because we we really do change, and that that could happen in one day. The demographic completely shifts from yesterday. 75 plus crew that's here during the day. You hit 3 o'clock and the buses start unloading, and it's just.00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:39.000Jay Dougherty: crazy here. And then, at the same time, um, we're really unique in, like, our seasons past. Like, most of the visits that come from our seasons past, those folks live within, like.00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:36.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:51.000Jay Dougherty: probably a 15-mile radius of the mountain. So after school, all of those teenagers are getting dropped off here. Uh, so it's… it's… it's unique, um, in that sense. And then 8 o'clock, it's night racing.00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:53.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:53.000Jay Dougherty: So.00:10:53.000 --> 00:11:08.000Stuart Winchester: So I've pulled up your trail map here, for those who are watching this on StormSkiing.com or YouTube, and the Connecticut ski areas, all four of them that are public, they remind me of Midwest ski areas, and that's… I say that because that's where I grew up, and Midwest ski areas are very.00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:05.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah.00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:19.000Stuart Winchester: efficient, right? They have the racing lane and the terrain park, and what I really liked, I thought was impressive when I came to Southington, was you had a little mogul patch, maybe it was right here when I came.00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:28.000Stuart Winchester: This seemed to be the race hill. Wasn't much going on the day I was there, but that's neither here nor there. That's what I was assuming that was for. And there's some really nice park stuff.00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:35.000Stuart Winchester: I don't know, just… I mean, you can see it on the trail map where it's marked, but… but it's… it's, like, thought.00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:39.000Stuart Winchester: to, you know, give variety and make a small place.00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:49.000Stuart Winchester: feel bigger. I also like how you haven't widened the trails too much up top. So, just talk a little bit about that, you know, efficiency of use, and how challenging it is to make a mountain for everyone.00:11:49.000 --> 00:12:06.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, it is a challenge, especially when you're only dealing with like 51 acres, right? A skiable terrain. But you, you know, we want our programs to be successful. We want everybody to have a good time. We're fortunate in that, like our lift capacity somewhat matches our parking capacity.00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:26.000Jay Dougherty: So, like, people see the lots fall. Connecticut's a small state, so, like, if we're full, it's very accessible to go somewhere else. Not that we're encouraging that, but we don't want to… we don't want to overcrowd our trails, right? And yes, I admittedly catch flack, because when you do run high school racing in the afternoons, oftentimes you have to close down that.00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:11.000Stuart Winchester: Down.00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:34.000Jay Dougherty: Thunderbolt Trail in its entirety. There's sometimes four GS lanes that are set up across it during training and race days.00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:45.000Jay Dougherty: Um, but you… you try to do a good job at everything you're gonna offer. Um, so, you know, oftentimes, we… we get questions about things like tubing, right? Like, why… why don't you have tubing, right? So…00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:57.000Jay Dougherty: unless I can do a really good job at it, um, which our acres just doesn't allow for right now, and our parking capacity, like, it's… it just doesn't make sense to do it, because I don't want to…00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:07.000Jay Dougherty: offer, like, a poor product, a poor on-snow product, so… Um, but yeah, it's, uh, it is a big challenge, uh, for sure, especially when you're…00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:19.000Jay Dougherty: you know again, going back to that demographic shift like on a Saturday or Sunday morning, and you have all these lessons that are out there, and they're all fighting for beginner terrain. Yeah, it's a it's a challenge.00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:23.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and for folks who may be wondering why…00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:35.000Stuart Winchester: Southington doesn't put in more. Here is Southington on the map, right? This is a Google map, and you can see neighborhood. You have development all around you, and I think… what is this, like a nature preserve in the back?00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:27.000Jay Dougherty: No.00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:43.000Jay Dougherty: Uh, so that's actually Southington Water Department, so yeah, there's no… there's no expansion that's gonna happen back there, yeah.00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:36.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:39.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:41.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:48.000Stuart Winchester: Right, and if you really zoom in, I mean, some of these houses, they probably have ski-in, ski-out if they want it. I.00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:49.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, they're really good. Some do, actually.00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:49.000Stuart Winchester: I don't know if they do.00:13:49.000 --> 00:14:05.000Stuart Winchester: But you have this, uh, it's a really unique location, and it feels very New England, because you, you get off the highway, you get off 84, and you're driving through these neighborhoods, you're like, where is this, is there really a ski area here? You know, I'm just blindly following my Google Maps like everyone else, and you pull up, and there's this.00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:01.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah.00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:17.000Stuart Winchester: barn. And I was reading a little bit about the history of it, but I'll let you tell us, what is this barn, and what can you tell us about the history of Southington as far as how you crammed a ski area.00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:07.000Jay Dougherty: Yep.00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:21.000Stuart Winchester: Or how a scary is crammed into a neighborhood that probably wants a neighborhood.00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:39.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, so, the story goes, as you can read on the website, uh, Dr. Harold Richmond took his family on a ski trip up north, uh, I'm assuming it was probably Mount Snow, and, uh, I wanted to recreate that in Connecticut. I mean, there were already existing areas in Connecticut, obviously Mohawk was around, um, it was Satan Ridge at the time.00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:54.000Jay Dougherty: So he came back and was looking for a spot. Initially, I think he wanted to open a skating rink in the town of Southington, and that got like shot down by the planning zoning at the time. So this farm was up for sale on the west side of town.00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:14:54.000 --> 00:15:02.000Jay Dougherty: At that time period, all of those houses weren't there. There were some, but not nearly the messages there on the map.00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:08.000Jay Dougherty: And, you know, he purchased the farm. Uh, he was an orthodontist, which…00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:22.000Jay Dougherty: typically doesn't blend well with construction, uh, at least, uh, on-hill construction. Uh, so they partnered with Palmisano Construction out of Bristol, and they built out the ski area. Uh, in 1964, it opened, so…00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:25.000Jay Dougherty: Been going ever since.00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:35.000Stuart Winchester: And then the barn, I understand that this property, I think, was assembled from a lot of things, but part of it was actually a dairy farm, right?00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:29.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah.00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:33.000Jay Dougherty: Yep.00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:34.000Jay Dougherty: Yep.00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:49.000Jay Dougherty: So, yeah, so, yes, I have, uh, actual photos of, um, cows being milked in that barn, uh, by the original owners, uh, which one of the original owners, actually, the family still lives in an adjacent property, so…00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:49.000Stuart Winchester: Really?00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:50.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah.00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:52.000Stuart Winchester: Do you have any idea how old the barn is?00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:56.000Jay Dougherty: Uh, roughly, I think there's a stamp on the side, it's like 1937.00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:12.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so have you, you know, I imagine a lot of renovations have happened over the years. Do they have to winterize it? Did they, like, what do you, what does it take to maintain a building that's this old? Because it looks super cool, but one other thing I know about old buildings by living in a bunch of them is they're a pain in the butt.00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:03.000Jay Dougherty: Yes.00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:09.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah.00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:28.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, yeah, it's a challenge. It certainly is. You know, they're not the most efficient structures and like, especially when you're striving for sustainability these days and trying to reduce your carbon footprint and an older facility like that.00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:19.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:43.000Jay Dougherty: you know it. It's it is oftentimes drafty. But there there is that like quaint New England feeling to it when you walk in. Certainly, if it were much larger, it would. It would better service the folks visiting here. But we also have the mountain room, which is a second restaurant.00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:36.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:42.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:45.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:45.000Jay Dougherty: Um…00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:51.000Jay Dougherty: and lounge area. So, you know, we do a good job of spreading folks out, and.00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:01.000Jay Dougherty: you know, in the post-COVID era, people seem to not be as afraid to eat outside anymore. So, like, we've taken full advantage of, like, patio space and things like that.00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:58.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. Yeah.00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:01.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: That's cool, and then the old original farmhouse, I believe, is your ticket office, is that right?00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:10.000Jay Dougherty: Yep. Yeah, I'm sitting in it right now. My office is in there, guest service office, everything like that.00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:08.000Stuart Winchester: But.00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:26.000Stuart Winchester: That is so cool. So another quirk of Southington and Southington, and you, you find this only, well, I'm sure you find it elsewhere, but I've only seen it in the northeast, is the parking lot across the street. And so I know you have overflow parking here, but I always think it's kind of neat, but also kind of.00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:21.000Jay Dougherty: Yep.00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:36.000Stuart Winchester: scary, considering your demo of kids. I mean, how much of a pain is this? Is this, like, the apple orchards where… because I came on a non-busy day, like I usually do these places, and uh…00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:29.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah.00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:35.000Jay Dougherty: Mm-hmm.00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:44.000Stuart Winchester: you know, like, I know the apple orchards in the fall have to set up a cop to safely get people across the road. What's the… what's the safety situation here?00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:50.000Jay Dougherty: So the states provided us with a great, like, crosswalk there of solar power.00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:56.000Jay Dougherty: It's not… Mount Vernon Road, unless the traffic's coming here, is not typically that busy.00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:01.000Jay Dougherty: It's not one of the main, like, thoroughfares in Southampton by any means.00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:01.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:18.000Jay Dougherty: And for the most part, yes, occasionally you get the rogue driver that's doing over the speed limit, and you do encounter a scary situation. But knock on wood, I mean, for the most part, it's function. People know we're here. Certainly anybody in town knows we're here.00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:13.000Stuart Winchester: No.00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:30.000Jay Dougherty: So, it really hasn't been quite that big of an issue. It's well-lit, like, you know, at night, the skier would glow.00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:40.000Jay Dougherty: as, you know, we put it, it's there. I mean, you know, it hasn't been a huge issue, but it is unique to, you know, New England skiers. You really don't see it anywhere else.00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:35.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:56.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so, so when I, when I see all these houses, you know, I made the crack that they might have ski in, ski out, and that's my brain going to, I would love to live on the side of a ski area. Uh, not everyone necessarily does. I was talking to the folks over at Thunder Ridge last week up at, uh, the Ski Areas of New York convention.00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:49.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah.00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:12.000Stuart Winchester: And they're similarly built, kind of, aside a neighborhood. But, you know, the ski area's been there longer than most people live there. They said they've been having some issues with neighbors. I don't know how Southington sits with its neighbors, or if this is a blessing or curse to have these homes right here.00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:00.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah.00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:32.000Jay Dougherty: Um, obviously, the ski area itself, before a lot of those homes, especially ones that are trailside, um, you know, the ski area existed. Uh, early on, yeah, there were certainly issues. I mean, they were running, and I don't know if you're familiar with, like, snowmaking equipment, but, like, Radnik's, like, Sky Giant 2, or.00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:49.000Jay Dougherty: snow giant tubes, which were loud, sounded like a jet engine taking off. They were running compressors. They used to pump air into mines in Pennsylvania, like, very much a smaller version of what Hunter had going on a few years ago. And, like, it would, you know, thump and…00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:19:49.000 --> 00:20:04.000Jay Dougherty: shaking foundations. We've since modernized a lot of our equipment. We've gone to mostly fan technology, and it's quieted down quite a bit, but it was such an issue back then. The town recognized how important the steering was.00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:16.000Jay Dougherty: you know, to tax revenue. We bring a lot of skier visits in. Um, you know, I think about this here, it's like a ton of volume on small acreage. So, you know.00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:07.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:26.000Jay Dougherty: They actually worked with my predecessor, and it's actually in the town ordinance that we're exempt from the noise at night.00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.000Jay Dougherty: Um, yeah, so…00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I have to imagine, too, that as your equipment has gotten more efficient, I've seen a lot of skiers, their snowmaking window has really shrunk.00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:37.000Jay Dougherty: Yep.00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:55.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, that's absolutely us. Um, we have a really difficult climate where we are. You know, it's somewhat coastal. Uh, we deal with Long Island Sound, you're close to the Connecticut River. Um, you know, we always talk about that I-84 corridor in Connecticut before, like the snow line versus rain line, and um…00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:43.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:52.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:20:55.000 --> 00:21:10.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, it is a challenge year after year. So, like, staying on top of ZoomMate, that's probably one of our largest investments that we do. We put our new pump house in, fully automated in 2018, and now we've been, every year, just adding more automation to the hill.00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:16.000Jay Dougherty: Um, this year we added another, like, 10 TL8 Lances from TechnoAlpin, um…00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:12.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:22.000Jay Dougherty: and yeah, I mean, it's the way to go, uh, because our winters are so short, like…00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:22.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:23.000Jay Dougherty: Oh.00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:37.000Jay Dougherty: like, manual snowmaking equipment, like, you'll never be able to keep up with a computer as far as, like, changes in the atmosphere and conditions, so it's worked really well for us. And it's manageable because we're small, you know, like, we can bite off small investments at a time with it.00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:28.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I try to make that point to my listeners and readers a lot, is that…00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:51.000Stuart Winchester: I was certainly surprised by this when I started this podcast, is sometimes the smallest ski areas have the best snowmaking, and I always point to Pennsylvania, they are just…00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:50.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah.00:21:51.000 --> 00:22:03.000Stuart Winchester: have some incredible snowmaking systems, because they have very challenging weather patterns, and that rain-snow line you're talking about, a lot of times, folks who are in the Northeast, our weather goes sort of up at an angle.00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:05.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, yeah.00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:14.000Stuart Winchester: So… so it comes from wherever it comes from, and then goes… so there's sometimes this fun little rain-snow line that… that sometimes you're below, but sometimes you're above, right?00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:31.000Jay Dougherty: Right, and you have to be able to recover quickly, and that's what it's all about. I mean, like, typically after you get, like, one of those events, um, you do have usually some colder weather that'll follow in, and you have to take full advantage of that, and you want to be able to resurface as much terrain as possible, so…00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. And are you feeding from this… this pond down here?00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:44.000Jay Dougherty: Yes, but we also have a, uh, water supply from the town. The town owns their own water here, so yeah. And we pay for it, um, but that's another expense item.00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:39.000Stuart Winchester: Oh.00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, that's great.00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:58.000Stuart Winchester: So, snowmaking's big. Another thing that Southington has really been investing in is lifts, and you're… you have one of the newer lift fleets that I'm aware of for a small ski area, and uh…00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:45.000Jay Dougherty: I don't know how.00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:04.000Stuart Winchester: Let me just pull up my notes here so I get this correct. But the…00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:15.000Stuart Winchester: So you put in North Star just three years ago, right, or two years ago, or 2023. Avalanche was new in 2021, I think.00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.000Jay Dougherty: Yep.00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:18.000Stuart Winchester: Thunderbolt was new in, like, 2011, is that right?00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.000Jay Dougherty: Uh, 2009 for Thunderbolt.00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:33.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, 2009. Right, and so, uh, before I ask you about these lists individually, I was up at, again, I was at Skiers in New York last year, or last week, and one of the big concerns with these guys, because New York has the most Skiers, but it's mostly family owned.00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:40.000Stuart Winchester: And one of their big concerns is just the cost of new lifts. All your lifts are ParTech lifts.00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:41.000Jay Dougherty: Correct.00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:42.000Stuart Winchester: And I've talked to Hagen, and…00:23:42.000 --> 00:24:00.000Stuart Winchester: Small operators, especially in the Northeast, or actually whoever's worked with them, speak very reverently of Hagen and how if he wasn't around, it would be very hard to afford new lifts. So can you just talk about working with Hagen on these lifts? And I realize, Thunderbolt, you were not in the GM role at that time, but it sounds like you were on site.00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:01.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah.00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:09.000Stuart Winchester: So just talk about Hagen and what it's like to work with him and how important he is to small ski areas in the 2020s.00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:15.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, so Hagen… Hagen's great. I mean, like, I have a long-standing relationship with Hagen, and…00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:31.000Jay Dougherty: he's the guy that you can call on, like, Sunday morning, and, like, if you need him to take a ride here to look at something, he will. Um, stands behind his product, always fix it, you know, he'll work with you. He's a solutions guy, really, um, is what it boils down to. And I feel like, um.00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:23.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:35.000Jay Dougherty: you know, when it comes to Hagen, like…00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:41.000Jay Dougherty: He's willing to work more with you than… than…00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:56.000Jay Dougherty: I don't have much experience working with the other manufacturers, because really, like, I've only really considered that, because, I mean, one of the important things for me is to try to standardize everything here. It makes it easier on my crew, it makes it easier on what we have to stock for lift parts.00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:45.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:47.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:12.000Jay Dougherty: and all of the above. Um, so, like, every one of our lifts now has the same grip in it, you know, assemblies are all similar, except for one lift, which we'll talk about, I'm sure. Um, but yeah, I mean, I have nothing but good things to say about Hagen, and he's.00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:03.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:16.000Jay Dougherty: incredibly important to this, and you say you're from the Midwest, so, like…00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:33.000Jay Dougherty: that's where I think you know where where you don't have you know that the lift ticket pricing in general in the Midwest is a bit lower than it is in the northeast, but we all spend have to spend the same amount of money on upgrading our facilities like it's not like there's a.00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:32.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:42.000Jay Dougherty: a discount for buying techno alpine equipment if you live in the Midwest, or you're here in the Midwest, or buying, you know, chairlifts. So…00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:38.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:51.000Jay Dougherty: um, yeah, it's a concern, and guys like Hagen are the… are… what can keep that alive, and come up with the solutions, um, for the future. I mean, like…00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:59.000Jay Dougherty: it, for us, it just makes sense, too. Pine Island, New York's not that far from Southern, like, it's an hour and a half, maybe.00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:06.000Stuart Winchester: Right. How worried are you about Hagen retiring and what's going to happen after that?00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:00.000Jay Dougherty: So.00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:07.000Jay Dougherty: Um…00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:09.000Jay Dougherty: I mean…00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:22.000Jay Dougherty: as with most lift manufacturers, somebody inevitably takes it over and takes care of it, but very concerned. I mean, the loss of, like, Hagen in the industry, if and when he decides to retire.00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:36.000Jay Dougherty: Um, it's gonna be huge for… for the areas that it relied on. There's a ton of part-tech lifts in the Northeast, and you find them at small areas like Mount Southington, and then private clubs, and things like that, and he's still servicing all the old boardwreck equipment.00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:47.000Jay Dougherty: Which I know, like, many people have had issues with Borbug in the past, but truth be told, I mean, there's a number of those installations that are still running from the mid-70s, so…00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:47.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:26:47.000 --> 00:27:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and one of them is right here. The Stardust, which according to LiftBlog is a 1978 Borvig triple. So you have one, two, three new lifts. Well, I'm going to say they're, you know, anything built in this century, I call it new. And then you have this guy here. What's your thinking on Stardust long term? Are you happy with it? Do you like it? Do you want to replace it?00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:51.000Jay Dougherty: Exactly. Yeah.00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:10.000Stuart Winchester: What's popping around?00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:26.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, so, speaking of Hagen, we've been working with Hagen, and actually, the new, uh, idler return terminal is actually sitting on site right now, and that's getting replaced. So, we're somewhat redesigning the unload of that area, we're moving it downhill, gaining a little bit of elevation for now, and it's part of, uh.00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:19.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:22.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:35.000Jay Dougherty: pretty much a three-year, uh, as of right now, it's planned for three years. It could be a shortage, too. Um, planned full replacement of that list.00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:32.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:38.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so, so, so you're, you're getting a new…00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:36.000Jay Dougherty: So.00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:44.000Stuart Winchester: So you'll get a new top terminal, then a new… I mean, I guess just take us through the timeline that you plan.00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:41.000Jay Dougherty: Yep.00:27:44.000 --> 00:28:04.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, so it'd be a new top terminal first year, probably a new bottom terminal the second and then towers in between the third. So unique to board big lifts, they have the hanging ship assemblies, right? So that changes, you know, the dynamic of your of your carrier, right? So you have a shorter with those hanging ship assemblies, you have a shorter hanger.00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:47.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:53.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:56.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:14.000Jay Dougherty: attached to your chair. Um, so for me to do… I couldn't do the towers before I did the terminals, but I could do the terminals before the towers.00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:17.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so that's essentially going to be a brand new Partech lift.00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:22.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, essentially. I mean, there'll be huge components in it. Um, the gearbox is…00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:19.000Stuart Winchester: The the.00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:29.000Jay Dougherty: We're in great shape still, so I think that would probably get repurposed into the lift, so… but other than that, yeah.00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:43.000Stuart Winchester: That's an interesting strategy, uh, Lonnie Gleiberman, who runs Ischeria Mount Bohemia up in northern Michigan, he had some old riblets, and he replaced the top terminal and bottom terminal with SkyTrak terminals, and just left all the chairs and, uh…00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:51.000Stuart Winchester: towers in place, because he said it was going to be another couple million dollars to do those, and he said I could just build another lift for that. Talk to us about the 3-year…00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:58.000Stuart Winchester: construction? Is that just a money thing? Is that a labor availability thing? What makes you spread it over 3 years?00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:13.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, we do a lot in-house, right? I have a very talented team. Most of these guys, they're 10 years or 10 plus years. I mean, we've been working together for a long time, so we know our abilities, we know our timelines, we know what we can fit in. Um, and me coming from the operation end, I know what's, like, feas.00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:01.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so. Yeah.00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:14.000Jay Dougherty: So…00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:30.000Jay Dougherty: you know, we… when we… when we plan these things, yeah, there's a financial component, because, like, just maintaining a ski area like this takes a lot, but we also have a lot of summer activity that goes on here. Last fiscal year, I think we did 39 weddings. Um, we have a summer camp.00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:43.000Jay Dougherty: for 9 or 10 weeks that operates out of here. Uh, and then midweek, we have sand volleyball and cornhole leagues, so there's always something going on. Oftentimes, we're busier in the summer than we are during the winter.00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:33.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:44.000Stuart Winchester: Really.00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:51.000Jay Dougherty: Um, but that's all part of the sustainability strategy for the skier, you know, you want to be able to absorb those, those bad years.00:29:51.000 --> 00:30:05.000Jay Dougherty: But, with all that activity, um, you know, construction periods get into smaller and smaller, uh, time frames, you know? You can't be running site trucks by, uh, summer camp, you know what I mean? So…00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:53.000Stuart Winchester: That's it.00:29:58.000 --> 00:29:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:07.000Stuart Winchester: And do you guys self-install?00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:13.000Jay Dougherty: Um, we assist with installation, like, obviously, um, but, I mean…00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:18.000Jay Dougherty: I'll hire somebody to put the towers in, I'll, you know…00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:17.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, no, I know it's rare. The reason I ask…00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:26.000Jay Dougherty: We're very actively involved in installation, I'll say that. It's local concrete work, uh, local site work. It's not, like.00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:24.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:33.000Jay Dougherty: that, you know, Ropeway Construction's helped us a ton. Randy Glennis has been a great partner of ours, so, yeah.00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:48.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, most people don't. The only reason I ask is I have Dennis Eschbach from Holiday Valley coming on later today, and he's one of the few that has an in-house team that just, they drop the lift off and they put it up. It's kind of amazing. So, you know, you said you were sticking, you know, you had a good gearbox and.00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:45.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah.00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:53.000Stuart Winchester: Assuming that you're just gonna have a, uh, replace Stardust with a triple, then?00:30:52.000 --> 00:31:09.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, it's going to be a trouble. It's going to remain. In fact, the chairs will be repurposed. So those aren't obviously the original boardwreck chairs that were on it. Those were flats, and they had issues with the chairs back in… that was probably about 2002. I think that was in College Way, and they replaced them with Partech.00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:55.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:58.000Stuart Winchester: Oh.00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:10.000Jay Dougherty: chairs at that time.00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:25.000Stuart Winchester: Right. So moving over to Avalanche, I don't know if you followed a similar multi-year process with that, but interesting to me that you kept it as a double. We don't build a lot of new doubles these days, just the ski industry in general. I mean, certainly like A-Basin built Pally.00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:16.000Jay Dougherty: We did.00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:20.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah.00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:34.000Stuart Winchester: a few years ago, replaced with a double. Was that the same kind of thing where you were modifying, or was there another reason why you went with a double chair instead of upgrading to that to maybe a triple or quad?00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:27.000Jay Dougherty: Yep.00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:47.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, so there was a lot that went into that decision, right? So, 2010, I want to say, that terminal at the bottom was replaced. So, there was originally a haul lift there. Um, I think it was, like, a 75 horsepower haul double chair. Um…00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:42.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm.00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:54.000Jay Dougherty: And… you know, it had some issues in the lower terminal, so we knew we had to replace that, so we…00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:11.000Jay Dougherty: took the hall wheel at the time, had a new hub put into it, so it would fit on a gearbox, a, uh, Kistling gearbox, and we had Hagen build a terminal around… around that to service the hall, and we ran it for… well, right up until we did the… all the…00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:23.000Jay Dougherty: last replacement of it. When that lift went in, it was designed that it could be a triple, so Hagen offered, like, two types of terminals at the time, and one could accept both a triple and a double.00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:35.000Jay Dougherty: Fast forward to 2011, and then time in between, ANSI standard changed. So your swing clearance has changed. Um, and that kind of brought in the issue of the lower terminal legs for us.00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:31.000Stuart Winchester: Umm.00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:50.000Jay Dougherty: And uh… so that was one of them. So I would have… if I wanted to change it to a triple at that point, it would have been a complete teardown of the lower terminal, new concrete, and a lot of… a lot of work that would go into that. Then you have the top, and if… I'm assuming you rode that lift when you're here?00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:58.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Thunderbolt wasn't running, but I rode the other ones. But this was actually before you replaced it, so I rode the old Avalanche.00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:52.000Jay Dougherty: Very tight.00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:55.000Jay Dougherty: Yes.00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:04.000Jay Dougherty: Okay, okay. So, when you get off the avalanche double chair, right, it's a really tight spot at the top.00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Oh, and suddenly that little hill, yeah.00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:18.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, yeah. Um, so… one of the things that we salvaged out of that was the original concrete off the top. We had everything, like, NDT'd and tested, and we dug down to the base of the footing and all nine yards. Um…00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:33.000Jay Dougherty: And I got to thinking, I'm like, alright, if we're gonna, you know, add a little bit of uphill capacity, because the difference in all reality between a double and a triple is not… it's not crazy, it's not… you're not getting 33% more people uphill.00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:33.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:34.000Jay Dougherty: um…00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:51.000Jay Dougherty: it boiled down to, like, bang for the buck, and we accomplished this in a different way, and is this the ultimate, um, you know, top unloading for all of Mount Sinai? Can we try to stay, like, 5, 10 years ahead when we think about some of these things? And it's like, well, we knew we had the Stardust triple up there, and.00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:48.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:33:51.000 --> 00:34:16.000Jay Dougherty: you know, that's become more of the lift when we're busy. Yes, the avalanche double runs during the day, because the easy to access lift for the you know, the older crowd that's here skiing during the day. But anytime it's busy, or there's kids here. Family is adaptive programs. It's mostly the starters triple. And really what you lose between the 2 lifts or lost before this year when we replaced doctor and all of.00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:23.000Jay Dougherty: Stardust was probably 2, 3 acres of terrain. That's yeah.00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:22.000Stuart Winchester: Right. Okay.00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:24.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:28.000Jay Dougherty: it wasn't… it wasn't that much. I mean, you can still access the primary terrain from the other way.00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:36.000Stuart Winchester: And so you have good reliability to the top. It sounds like you're going to improve it. Well, you said start us starting this summer with that new terminal.00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:40.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, oh no, the terminal's on site, there's no chairs on the line right now, it's in progress.00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:39.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:45.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, great. Uh, oh, wait, so will that be in place for 26-27 ski season?00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:41.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah.00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:48.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, the top, the top of it, yeah. Just the top row, yeah.00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:48.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay. Okay.00:34:48.000 --> 00:35:02.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, no, that's awesome. Then, North Star is your most recent lift. So, this one's interesting. You went from a double to a triple here. I think I know why, but just tell us about this lift and why you wanted to go triple over here.00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:09.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, again, our big focus is on teaching people to ski and ride, and, um, you know, when you have… and we have a ton of kids here.00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:29.000Jay Dougherty: So, uh, a double chair really didn't make sense, like, it was, you know, for a, um, instructor to ride with only one student. Uh, or a lot of times you'll get families, and the parents want to teach their kids how to ski, and you'll get one parent that skis, and another that sits in the base lodge, and they've got two children with them, so…00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:31.000Jay Dougherty: You know, triple makes more sense there.00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:47.000Jay Dougherty: Absolutely. So that that was the primary driver of changing that to a triple, and that lift was put in. You know the lift that that replaced was a salvage lift from Craigmere in New Jersey.00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:48.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:35:47.000 --> 00:36:00.000Jay Dougherty: Uh, many years ago, uh, which I was part of taking down. Um, yeah, so, like, steel has an age, and I'm gonna be the first one to tell you that. So that was one of the decisions of, like, where we're, like, you know, let's just get it and replace this.00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:52.000Stuart Winchester: Were you really?00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:56.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:01.000Jay Dougherty: So.00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:12.000Stuart Winchester: That's wild. So that lift is, from what I can tell, it was installed in 76 at Cregmer, and then you guys put it in, I think, 01.00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:13.000Jay Dougherty: Yep.00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:20.000Stuart Winchester: And then when you took it down, Lost Valley, Maine took it, and they made it their chair 3, and I rode that chair last year, and I was like…00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:25.000Stuart Winchester: Hey, is this the one they moved from Southington? Because this is… they did a really good job with it, but…00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:25.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah.00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:30.000Stuart Winchester: how did that whole deal happen? Were you like, dude, you're crazy, this chairlift is, like, 50 years old?00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:39.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, I mean, so, Scott's very talented, right? And, like, you know, his, um…00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:36.000Stuart Winchester: There.00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:54.000Jay Dougherty: he knows everything there is to know about all grips, and he has access to a lot of parts, so… I mean, for him, it worked. Uh, for us, you know, like, with the volume of people that we do, and what our challenge was with that lift.00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:45.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:36:54.000 --> 00:37:07.000Jay Dougherty: you know, I would say more of it into the functionality of the lift was the… was the reason for the replacement than the age. Yes, steel does have an age, like I said, but I mean, I think for me, it was more, you know.00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:14.000Jay Dougherty: we need this because of the volume of lessons we're doing, and, like, the pinch point it's causing with instructors, so…00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:20.000Stuart Winchester: Right. Yeah, you know, one of the arguments I hear from the larger operators.00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:26.000Stuart Winchester: for the reason that they don't sell older lifts, they're worried about liability. You know.00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:30.000Stuart Winchester: I find that dubious. Was that a consideration when you…00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:31.000Stuart Winchester: Sold.00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:33.000Stuart Winchester: To… to Lost Valley?00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:42.000Jay Dougherty: No, I… you know, when you're… when you write up paperwork, you can write it up as you're selling it for scrap, and I don't care what they're doing with it afterwards.00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:57.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, right, right, yeah. And they have other halls up there, and there's still a couple hundred halls running in the country. So, but it was probably good, nice for you to get rid of the last one you had. I'm curious about Snowflake, this little, I think this is the handle toe, and then you have the carpets over here.00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:02.000Stuart Winchester: Do you like the handle toes still here, or are you gonna move to a carpet? What's your thinking around there?00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:19.000Jay Dougherty: So, Snowflake is actually a, uh, it was a conveyor lift, um, that was there. The handle tow that we had is over on Whoopi, and that's since gone. Uh, that's moved its way out west to tubing operation this summer. Um, and the conveyor lift that was on Snowflake, our crews kind of, uh.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:11.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay.00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:31.000Jay Dougherty: redoing, and that conveyor is moving over to replace the Whoopie handle towel, and we have a new conveyor that arrived yesterday that's, uh, replacing the snowflake, yeah.00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:25.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:34.000Stuart Winchester: Man, there's a lot happening. So you're gonna have, uh, four carpets.00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:36.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah, 4 conveyors, and then, yep.00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so that's… look, this is all really impressive, and if I…00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:59.000Stuart Winchester: was looking at any skier area in the country, I think you probably have, top to bottom, one of the newer Lyft fleets, even including Stardust, right? And, you know, I cover skier areas all over the country, and a lot of times, there's so much deferred maintenance, you get something like a Holiday Mountain in New York, where.00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:50.000Jay Dougherty: Yeah.00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mike Taylor, I'm not sure if you're acquainted with him, but he bought it, and it was just… it was a junker, and he had to do everything all at once. It sounds like Southington's been able to keep up. And I asked this question, because I have a lot of people who listen to this who run skier areas or want to run skier areas. Is all this money.00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:30.000Stuart Winchester: to upgrade Southington coming from Southington, or is it… is there an outside business that helps feed in, or is it, hey, like, Patch Peak, the ski area, has to make a profit, even though the family owns a bunch of different ski areas. It's, uh, you know, Patch Peak can't take money from whatever their other businesses are.00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:49.000Jay Dougherty: Nope, it's all from outside of it, honestly. And that's, uh, you know, that's the best part of it all, you know, like… And, you know, it's having that strategy of how to continue operating under, like, all these outside pressures that we have. And, you know, we compete with everything.00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:52.000Jay Dougherty: Compute with video to complete.00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:39:52.000 --> 00:40:07.000Jay Dougherty: everything that's on the outside. We're just very fortunate to have like that main artery that runs through Connecticut and I 84 makes us accessible. Honestly, that's that's one of the biggest drivers. So it's helped us develop our after school programs.00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:01.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:13.000Jay Dougherty: It's helped us become the home for, you know, the high school race leagues.00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:19.000Jay Dougherty: all of those things. And, like, New York City, like, I can be down in New York City in, like, 2 hours.00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:29.000Jay Dougherty: Yankee Stadium, whatever. And, uh, it… we get a lot of traffic from there. We get traffic from Long Island, we get traffic from Westchester County, Fairfield County.00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:36.000Jay Dougherty: Um, you name it. So, like, just being accessible has been, like, the key to the success of it, really.00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:39.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it really is. There's not… There's a lot of…00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:54.000Stuart Winchester: good ski areas that orbit New York City, that that's their main purpose. I, you know, Mount Peter is our go-to for my son for his seasonal program. Thunder Ridge, another one I mentioned. Uh, and there's Camp Gaughan, New Jersey. But then, the Connecticut ski areas, I think, are great, and they're actually…00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:45.000Jay Dougherty: that.00:40:54.000 --> 00:41:01.000Stuart Winchester: So, let's… let's wrap up on this today, Jay. You… last year, Southington joined the Snow Triple Play.00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:56.000Jay Dougherty: Yes.00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:02.000Jay Dougherty: Right.00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:17.000Stuart Winchester: And this year, you are on that product again, plus Snow Partners' new Snow Pass, which has two days each at 16 ski areas. And just to lay this out a little bit for the listeners, the way that I see Southington feeding into this is it's, you have Southington, you have Butternut.00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:33.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and then you have Bel Air, Gore, Whiteface. So you kind of got those beginner ski areas where people can hop around and learn and then go up to the more aspirational ski areas, I'll call them. But just talk about those passes and snow operating and why.00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:40.000Stuart Winchester: Because I imagine you could have joined IndyPass years ago, but why did you finally go with Snow Operating?00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:52.000Jay Dougherty: So, we've had a great relationship with Snow Operating. Obviously, we're a little later in the ballgame with the attorney-based learning, um, but we've had such good success with them, and such a positive relationship with.00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:44.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:48.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:50.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. Yeah.00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:59.000Jay Dougherty: with Joe and Hugh and that whole group, um, that it was kind of, like, the natural choice for us to go with them.00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:13.000Jay Dougherty: Um, last year, yeah, we were on the, uh, the Triple Play, which was kind of the product that came out of something they were doing at Mountain Creek for a number of years. And, you know, thinking about it, when you approached us with the idea, it was like, yeah, we'd love to attract new.00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:19.000Jay Dougherty: with folks, and, like, we share a similar demographic. Um, people go south to them, they come n

WhoDoug Fish, founder of the Snowvana ski show and Indy PassDate RecordedSept. 30, 2026About SnowvanaSnowvana is a “winter kick-off festival” (a ski show) scheduled for a four-city 2026 tour:Use the code “storm26” to snatch a free ticket here for any 2026 Snowvana show.Check out the list of free and discounted lift tickets available onsite at each show. Why I interviewed himIf we trust the metonymic origin story of our surnames, then Doug Fish is a descendant of “a catcher or seller of fish,” probably sometime before the invention of the printing press. I cannot think of anything that I understand less than fishing. Specifically, how a person can be good at it. My experience with fishing is that you cast a line in the water and nothing happens while you get drunk. But my buddy's brother could go out on Sanford Lake in a rowboat and return an hour later surrounded by like 50 fish. Every damn time. And I was always just astonished like whatever inherent traits you need to be good at fishing that dude has them.I don't know if Doug Fish is good at fishing, or if he even likes it. I do know that he's good at skiing, and that he likes it. And whatever fishing ability he may or may not have inherited from Alabaster Fish of the 12th Century, he certainly possesses some of the traits of great fishermen: patience, instinct, and the ability to do hard things that no one else can figure out.Organizing and launching the Indy Pass is probably one of the great achievements of modern skiing, in that it proved that any ski area - and therefore nearly any skier - could join the multimountain pass club. While Indy wasn't a novel or new concept, Fish was able to achieve the heretofore impossible task of organizing far-flung ski areas into a coalition with patience, persistence, and a low-key, no-pressure approach devoid of Big Ski's ego. Once Fish sold Indy Pass, he tried something even harder: replicating the success of his Portland ski show across the country. To me, that sounds even more impossible than fishing, and does not include the benefit of a cooler MGDs on the boat floor. But whatever is inside of Fish that made the Indy Pass work, it's making the recently faded ski show work too. I've attended Snowvana in Portland and Milwaukee, each time as a paid speaker. I'm scheduled to host live conversations with Indy Pass/Entabeni/Black Mountain owner Erik Mogensen (Friday, Nov. 6) and Killington owner Phill Gross and president Mike Solimano (Saturday, Nov. 7), at this year's New England show. I don't endorse Snowvana over any competing shows, but I do think ski shows in general offer a fun atmosphere, and a cool way to participate in skiing when you can't actually go skiing.BackgroundFish has appeared on The Storm Skiing Podcast four times, each time solely as a representative of the Indy Pass:TranscriptsThere are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don't know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.ZoomStuart Winchester: My guest today is the founder of the Snowvana Winter Kickoff Festival and also founder of the Indie Pass. Now in its 10th year, Snowvana gathers skiers, ski area operators, and retailers in Portland, Oregon.00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:46.000Stuart Winchester: Seattle, New England, and Wisconsin.00:16:46.000 --> 00:17:03.000Stuart Winchester: The Indy Pass, which Fish founded in 2019 and sold in 2023, but is still involved in, delivers skiers two days each at more than 300 ski areas around the world for winter 2026 to 27. He is making his fifth appearance on the Storm Skiing Podcast. He is Doug Fish. Doug, welcome back.00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: How's it been? Been way too long.00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:10.000Doug Fish: It has to. I know. I miss you.00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:21.000Stuart Winchester: I know. Well, it's been way too long on the pod, and I was just talking before this, in my little intro, before you joined, that this is one of the reasons I wanted to do a different format pod, because.00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:24.000Stuart Winchester: I talk or text you all the time.00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:25.000Doug Fish: Yeah, yeah, no worries.00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:39.000Stuart Winchester: And I haven't had you on the pod in 3 years. So, there's no reason for that, because we love hearing from you, and your episodes always do really well. And we will be working together here a little bit on one of these Snovana appearances in a bit. We'll get to that.00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:42.000Stuart Winchester: First, though, I do want to pick up…00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:40.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:47.000Stuart Winchester: where we left off in that pod three years ago. You had just sold IndiePass to Eric Mogensen.00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:47.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:48.000Doug Fish: Get it.00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:56.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, who has gone on to since, also by Black Mountain, and runs a technology company. He was on the podcast recently, and has been a couple times. Just…00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:56.000Doug Fish: Yep.00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:04.000Stuart Winchester: First of all, tell us how you're still involved, and give as candid of an assessment as you can of.00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:02.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:10.000Stuart Winchester: where the Indy Pass is once you… once you let that baby go.00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:11.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:22.000Doug Fish: Well, it was a little difficult to let the baby go, but I felt at the time that it would be in good hands, and I'm happy to report that it is in good hands.00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:15.000Stuart Winchester: No.00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:27.000Doug Fish: Um, you know, my country… my employment agreement ran out.00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:29.000Doug Fish: Almost two years ago.00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:35.000Doug Fish: And I'm still involved, you know. Eric and I extended it, and we keep extending it, and…00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:45.000Doug Fish: I believe in in what he's doing. I certainly believe in the past. I think that Eric has done a great job of.00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:50.000Doug Fish: Staying true to the mission and the brand promise of IndyPass.00:18:50.000 --> 00:19:00.000Doug Fish: And, um, you know, as long as that continues, I will… I will be involved in some capacity. I'm kind of the Colonel Sanders of the IndyPass now.00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:08.000Doug Fish: I and you know I get to be a little a bit of an ambassador. I go to some of the trade shows.00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:10.000Doug Fish: I ski with people.00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:14.000Doug Fish: It's… it's a pretty good gig, you know.00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:15.000Stuart Winchester: When you said Colonel Sanders, I mean, are you…00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:19.000Stuart Winchester: What I thought you were doing is still…00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:23.000Stuart Winchester: Recruiting new partners? Is that not the case?00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:37.000Doug Fish: Yeah, I've been. That's what I've been primarily focused on recruiting and maintaining relationships, you know, and and helping grow from a hundred to 300 resorts in the last 3, 3 and a half years, which is pretty incredible growth. And.00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:33.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:49.000Doug Fish: you know, I can't take all the credit, but, um, you know, when you can focus on just one thing, you can be a lot more effective, and I've been focused on that.00:19:49.000 --> 00:20:04.000Doug Fish: But Eric has assembled a great team, and I've kind of handed that that part of the the effort off to Nick Niebus and a couple other people on Eric's team that are recruiting new resorts, and, as you can see from the latest release, that's.00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.000Doug Fish: Going pretty well.00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:12.000Doug Fish: Um, and I, you know, I think there's some other exciting news in the, in the, uh…00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:21.000Doug Fish: Uh, coming up in the future, I won't spill the beans, but, um, you know, there's always cool things happening there, and I'm just really thankful to be involved.00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:38.000Stuart Winchester: It's been really fascinating to watch the evolution of not just the Indy Pass, but the Pass landscape as a whole. And coincidentally, we started our brands in the same year. Obviously, you've been at this game for a long time, but the Indy Pass launched in 2019, and that's when I came around.00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:30.000Doug Fish: Mmhm.00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:41.000Stuart Winchester: observing the industry.00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:57.000Stuart Winchester: the pass landscape for as long as you've been directly involved in it. And I think the way I always look at this, Doug, is Vail normalized the notion of a multi-mountain pass as an everyday product for the everyday skier, not just a niche product for locals.00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:58.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:04.000Stuart Winchester: And then ICON copied that model, and your contribution to it, which I think was…00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:07.000Stuart Winchester: Extremely important was.00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:17.000Stuart Winchester: taking that idea and normalizing the idea of the non-alpha ski area, non-destination ski area, and you do have some of those, you do. But…00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:18.000Doug Fish: Yep.00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:25.000Stuart Winchester: the idea that if you put together Brundage and Mission Ridge and Silver Mountain and White Pass.00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:25.000Doug Fish: Okay.00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:40.000Stuart Winchester: That would be an attractive pass together, right? Because those ski areas, they're, they're good, they're big ski areas, they have lots of snow, but they're not destination ski areas, they're not things people would have thought to fly to, but you had this insight, okay, but if I put them all together, that's pretty cool.00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:29.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:44.000Stuart Winchester: And so I'll give you some numbers and I'll let you react to this.00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:52.000Stuart Winchester: So, the first season of IndiePass, you launched with, you know, your first list of 10, and maybe you had 50 by the end of the year. Right now.00:21:52.000 --> 00:22:04.000Stuart Winchester: if you look at, uh, Epic, Icon, Indy, Mountain Collective, and the new Snow Pass from Snow Partners, there are 451 ski areas around the world.00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:11.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, between those 5 passes. A little bit of overlap between a few of them. 267 in the United States.00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:11.000Doug Fish: Yeah, thank you.00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:13.000Stuart Winchester: 55 in Canada, 61 in Europe.00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:17.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and 53 in Japan.00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:19.000Stuart Winchester: I mean, as you…00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:25.000Stuart Winchester: As you kind of reflect on how this landscape has changed.00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:33.000Stuart Winchester: I've asked this before, but I'll ask again, does this surprise you? I mean, how well this worked and how much it caught on?00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:37.000Doug Fish: No, it doesn't surprise me at all.00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:39.000Doug Fish: It's basic economics.00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:44.000Doug Fish: You know, lift tickets were getting super expensive, and.00:22:45.000 --> 00:23:05.000Doug Fish: a lot of people are getting priced out of the sport, and I mean, even if you want to ski at Vail resorts or Altara resorts. You know you you really have to get a pass if you want to ski more than a few days, and so it doesn't surprise me at all. It's just a it's a good deal. Any pass is the best deal of all.00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:19.000Doug Fish: You know, whether you use it as a regional pass, you know, you go 4 or 5 days in New England, or you take it and you hit the road and hit 25 resorts. It's the best deal in skiing, and it always has been.00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:24.000Doug Fish: So, you know, people respond to deals. That's…00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:28.000Doug Fish: That's, uh, you know, the most of… most, uh…00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:39.000Doug Fish: effective word in advertising is free and cheap comes a second, I think. So it doesn't surprise me a bit.00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:44.000Stuart Winchester: So we're starting to see a little bit of churn, and we've seen this since the days of the Max Pass.00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:45.000Doug Fish: Okay.00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:59.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and, you know, the Epic Pass and Mountain Collective sort of trading partners around. We've seen less of it, maybe, than I expected at the top end of Epic and Icon. We're starting to see a little in Indy. You've had some partners leave, you've had some partners who have gone to different passes.00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:50.000Doug Fish: Yeah. Okay.00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:53.000Doug Fish: Yeah, exactly.00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:05.000Stuart Winchester: What do you… so, the reality is it's a good idea, and people copied it, and that's a free market, and that's how compet.00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:06.000Doug Fish: Yes.00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:09.000Stuart Winchester: My question for you is, what do you think?00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:20.000Stuart Winchester: IndyPass has to do to make sure that it stays relevant, that the coalition stays together, that it stays an attractive.00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:18.000Doug Fish: Mmhm.00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:26.000Stuart Winchester: product for both skiers and ski area operators as Eric takes it into the future.00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:27.000Doug Fish: Yes.00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:32.000Doug Fish: Well, two things. I think that any of us, Lauren.00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:37.000Stuart Winchester: I'm sorry, can you repeat that?00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:41.000Doug Fish: I apologize, too. I got a derm.00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:40.000Stuart Winchester: All good.00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:43.000Doug Fish: Um…00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:51.000Doug Fish: In order for Dandy Pass to remain relevant, they need to continue to be an affordable option for consumers.00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:56.000Doug Fish: and continue to deliver value for the resorts.00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:07.000Doug Fish: And value in, you know, the quality of the visitors, the guests, the amount of check they write, and the amount that they pay for each visit.00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:11.000Doug Fish: And if they can continue to do that, then they will…00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:14.000Doug Fish: They will outlive you and I both.00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:28.000Doug Fish: Um, and, you know, yes, we have over 300 resorts now, you're bound to lose a few now and then. And, you know, we took a hit this year, a few people left, that was unfortunate, but we added…00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:17.000Stuart Winchester: Thank you.00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:38.000Doug Fish: quite a few more. So, you know, it's going great. I'm proud of what they're doing over there, and I'm proud to be associated with it still.00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:54.000Stuart Winchester: So you're playing… I mean, your name comes up all the time, as you said, from listening to the first few podcasts of this shorter version that I'm doing now, or trying to make them short, is… wow, everyone has a lot of opinions about Doug Fish, but so does Doug Fish.00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:50.000Doug Fish: Yep.00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:03.000Stuart Winchester: So, so you're clearly still living large in the minds of, of everyone who's involved in the IndiePass or works with it, but you're…00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:18.000Stuart Winchester: Main focus, I think, now, is on Snowvana, which… I copied this language, I don't want people to think I'm being corny, when I say it's a winter kickoff festival. I copied that from your press release, because I didn't really know what… like, I want to call it a ski show.00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:17.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:25.000Stuart Winchester: but you seem to not want to call it a ski show. So, what is… what is Snovana, and…00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:24.000Doug Fish: Well, that's a ski show.00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:28.000Stuart Winchester: And what are you trying to accomplish with it?00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:26.000Doug Fish: Good, good.00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:43.000Doug Fish: It's all those things. It's a enhanced ski swap. You know, you can call it anything you want, but, um, we started Savannah in 2016, so this is our 10th anniversary, and, um.00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:30.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:54.000Doug Fish: You know, Snowvana is a place for everyone to gather at the beginning of the season, you know, and we certainly didn't invent that. I think Warren Miller did.00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:10.000Doug Fish: originally, and I remember as a kid going to Warren Miller films, and I was just in awe of of all that, and it was a just, you know, getting stoked for the coming season. It was just an annual pilgrimage.00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:14.000Doug Fish: And, um, you know, over the years there's been, um.00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:31.000Doug Fish: you know, hundreds of ski shows, 50 ski shows across the country, big shows. And you know we we I have always been involved in events. I was in the concert business for almost 20 years, and my.00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:34.000Doug Fish: At the beginning of my career.00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:46.000Doug Fish: And, uh, I just, you know, when I was a kid and was in high school, we used to, you know, put on keggers and sell cups for a buck. So, you know, events are in my blood, and I love it, and…00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:42.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:45.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:27:46.000 --> 00:28:01.000Doug Fish: you know, when I sold the IndyPass, I sold my marketing agency, but I kept Snowvana, because, you know, I thought it'd be fun to keep it going, and… and uh… the young man who…00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:06.000Doug Fish: helped me, um, helped me, um.00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:10.000Doug Fish: Grow the Indy Pass.00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:14.000Doug Fish: Didn't want to go with Indy Pass. He didn't want to move to Colorado.00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:19.000Doug Fish: So I said, well, why don't you come and run Snowball? And we'll keep that going.00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:26.000Doug Fish: And it was actually his idea to, um, to expand it. He said, you know, I think this is a model that we can scale.00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:38.000Doug Fish: And, um, you know, I looked at him, I said, okay, you do all the work, and I'll help with the marketing, and I'll finance the operation, and, you know, here we are.00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:39.000Doug Fish: That was, uh.00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:44.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, so you're doing… you started this 10 years ago, and you're taking it around the country.00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:50.000Stuart Winchester: But you said ski shows have been around forever, right? So, you said there's been 50, 100 ski shows.00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:49.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:52.000Stuart Winchester: How is…00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:57.000Stuart Winchester: What happened to all those shows? Aren't they still there? Are you still competing with them?00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:03.000Stuart Winchester: And if so, it doesn't seem like a… like a market that's super ripe for disruption, right? Like, once you…00:28:58.000 --> 00:28:59.000Doug Fish: Here.00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:04.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:16.000Stuart Winchester: have a ski show, you kind of own the market, it would seem like. So, I guess rewind for us a little bit, maybe I should have started there. What have ski shows traditionally been in America, and.00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:09.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:19.000Stuart Winchester: What's happened to them over time?00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:31.000Doug Fish: Well, ski shows have been, you know, what's Nirvana? It was kind of a kickoff festival, a gear sale, and I think they kind of collapsed under their own weight.00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:40.000Doug Fish: You know, the Windy City Ski Show had a 40-year run. The Boston Ski and Snowboard Expo had a 60-year run.00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:49.000Doug Fish: uh, the Denver show. There's been ski shows in all the major northern markets, even in, you know, Dallas had a big show for many, many years, Atlanta.00:29:49.000 --> 00:30:03.000Doug Fish: And, um, but the cost of putting on these shows, these big shows, 100,000 square foot shows, is just too much. And, uh, at the same time, as these big shows started to go away.00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:18.000Doug Fish: ski swaps proliferated, you know, in every gymnasium and, you know, high school cafeteria across the country. You know, small ski resorts have a ski swap and a kickoff, you know, festival in the fall.00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:22.000Doug Fish: All over the country, there must be hundreds of ski swaps.00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:39.000Doug Fish: And so we looked at that and said, well, you know, ski swaps are great, but you can't get out of there fast enough. You know, when there you rifle through all the stuff and maybe you find a gym and you get a good deal, but, you know, there's no reason to stick around.00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:55.000Doug Fish: And what we try to do is create a festival atmosphere. We still have the ski swap. We have a consignment swap, which is a fundraiser for a local nonprofit. And then we have a huge gear sale and we work with local retailers.00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:04.000Doug Fish: So, you know, there's a lot to choose from, but there's lots of really good deals. And, um, but there's…00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:16.000Doug Fish: you know, there's fun stuff to do, too. We have films, we have live music, we have a bar. Um, you know, we do stupid stuff like, uh, frozen t-shirt contests and barefoot skis.00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:19.000Doug Fish: Um, so…00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:25.000Doug Fish: Yeah, there's just, you know, there's a lot of fun activities happening.00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:31.000Doug Fish: And, um…00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:38.000Stuart Winchester: So, so, so that's, that's all right, that's all right. So.00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:37.000Doug Fish: Sorry, I got interrupted too.00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:42.000Stuart Winchester: Is there a… is there an inflection point when the ski…00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:54.000Stuart Winchester: show stopped working. I want to point to COVID in 2020 that probably killed a lot of them for a year and then forever, but that's probably too simple of an explanation.00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:50.000Doug Fish: Yep.00:31:53.000 --> 00:32:00.000Doug Fish: Yeah, COVID I think was, you know, put a fork in a lot of the big shows.00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:08.000Doug Fish: Um, you know, a lot of promoters decided not to… not to come back. Um, but, you know, I think that the…00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:15.000Doug Fish: It's very tough. These municipal convention centers are just extremely expensive.00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:27.000Doug Fish: and I think you know that's that was part of it. And you know, online sales. And you know all the all the things that kill retail right? Because these are retail events.00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:37.000Doug Fish: And so, you know, we kind of, we took a year off for COVID too. In 2020, nobody was doing events.00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:35.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:42.000Doug Fish: Well, we came back in 2021 and it was our best show. We were the first.00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:54.000Doug Fish: show to come back and give it a go in 21 at the Oregon Convention Center. And the place was packed, and it was because people were just starving for.00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:11.000Doug Fish: you know, human connection. You know, they've been cooped up in their house for a year, and they came out in droves. And, you know, this is what, you know, these shows give us, is that human connection.00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:56.000Stuart Winchester: Something.00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:58.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:21.000Doug Fish: You know you can buy skis online. You can buy anything online. But you know the the community comes together and and.00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:28.000Doug Fish: It's, you know, we call it AI for the ski business, authentic interaction.00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:33.000Doug Fish: You know, we need more of that, not less of it. And it's…00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:36.000Doug Fish: It's just a it's a cool thing.00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:51.000Stuart Winchester: So how are you getting around the cost piece, though? I mean, if you want to — they left Chicago because of cost. It seems like that's because Chicago costs a lot. So you're going into Boston this year, and we'll talk about that in a minute. That's not a cheap market.00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:42.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:47.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:33:50.000 --> 00:34:00.000Doug Fish: No, well, we're going into the suburbs. We're hitting the suburbs now, you know, we're in West Seattle, in a suburb of Seattle.00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:55.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:58.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:01.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:11.000Doug Fish: Uh, we're in a suburb of Milwaukee and Franklin, Wisconsin, and we're in a suburb of Boston, out in Marlboro. It's about 40 minutes west of town.00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:19.000Doug Fish: And they call it, uh, West Metro. And, um, you know, these venues are smaller.00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:22.000Doug Fish: They're about 50,000 square feet versus 100.00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:37.000Doug Fish: and they're way less expensive. We don't have to deal with union. You know the cost of a union labor, and you know nothing against unions. But.00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:52.000Doug Fish: they can drive the cost up. And and you know, General Motors and Ford, you know, they can do an auto show there. No problem. They've they've got deep pockets. We can't. And I think that's why some of these big shows, you know, finally threw in the towel.00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:46.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:59.000Doug Fish: And, you know, the venues we're in, they're not as fancy. We're in a World War II airplane hangar in Seattle.00:34:58.000 --> 00:34:59.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:14.000Doug Fish: you know, at a in a in a park in West Seattle. It's a really cool building. But believe me, you know, it's it's it's not fancy. And so that's the that's the difference. And and.00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:10.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:25.000Doug Fish: we're able to charge 5 bucks in advance. Kids are free. The booth cost is reasonable for for vendors, and.00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:27.000Doug Fish: You know, it works.00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so you… the timeline's interesting for those who are following along. So you started Snovana in 2016, launched Indie in 2019. I'm curious…00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:44.000Stuart Winchester: how one may have fueled the other. In other words, and I know you've been in skiing and in the ski industry for decades, but…00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:46.000Stuart Winchester: Once you…00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:58.000Stuart Winchester: established IndiePass, and you made all these connections all over the country, I have to imagine that greased the wheels a little bit for Snowvana, because a big part of this, and we'll talk about this in a minute, is.00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:07.000Stuart Winchester: when you go there, most of the regional ski areas have booths set up. And not just the Independents, it's Vail and Altera, I've been at a bunch of the ones that I've been to.00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:04.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:08.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:12.000Stuart Winchester: In their mountains, in the bigger mountains, all over the place, so… so…00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:15.000Stuart Winchester: Do you think, I guess…00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:24.000Stuart Winchester: I guess the question is, how did IndiePass fuel the growth of Snowvana, or do you think that this would be taking off the way it is either way?00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:33.000Doug Fish: Oh, I think Snowvana and the work we were doing at the agency with a number of ski resorts all led to the.00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:36.000Doug Fish: the idea behind the Indy Pass.00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:42.000Doug Fish: And certainly the IndyPass connections that I've made have helped us expand.00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:52.000Doug Fish: Snowball on it. There's no question. You know, we just we're moving into the Boston market this year for the 1st time, and we have 37 resorts signed up.00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:59.000Doug Fish: That's pretty good for a first-year show. We have 70 resorts across the country. I think it's closer to 80 now.00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:08.000Doug Fish: And, you know, it's the only place where you're gonna see, uh, Epic Pass, Icon Pass, and Indy Pass all in the same room.00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:09.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:16.000Doug Fish: And, um, you know, that's the way it should be. You know, we want to be Switzerland and invite everyone in, because that's what the consumer wants.00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:27.000Doug Fish: you know, people want to want to interact with all those companies. And and so yeah, indie pass. There's no question it. It helped us.00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:29.000Doug Fish: You know.00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:31.000Doug Fish: break into new markets.00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:46.000Stuart Winchester: So if you look at the four markets you're in this year and, you know, Portland is the logical one, that's your home base and has been for a long time. Then you have Seattle, you have Milwaukee in the Midwest, and you have, you know, we'll call it Boston or New England or whatever you want to. It's in Mass.00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:40.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:47.000Doug Fish: Yep.00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:55.000Stuart Winchester: Right? So, one thing I always appreciated about the Indy Pass is that you didn't just make it a Western Pass, you went into the Midwest right away.00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:56.000Doug Fish: Mmhm.00:37:55.000 --> 00:38:13.000Stuart Winchester: You went into New England right away. So talk about each of those four markets and, and why it makes sense to do ski shows there because for, for example, in the Midwest, you could have, you could have gone to Detroit, you could have gone to Grand Rapids, you could have gone to Chicago, you could have gone to Indianapolis.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:23.000Stuart Winchester: chose Milwaukee, which is, you know, everyone's heard of Milwaukee, but it's not necessarily, like, the capital of Midwest, like Chicago is. So just talk us through those markets and your…00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:14.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:29.000Stuart Winchester: Slow expansion across the country, and you're kind of thinking behind where you're choosing to do this.00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:40.000Doug Fish: Yeah, good question. Um, so Seattle was a no-brainer. You know, we knew that we were drawing people out of Seattle for the Portland show. It's three, three and a half hours to Seattle.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:48.000Doug Fish: And we were drawing a pretty good crowd, so… uh, there hasn't been a show in Seattle for a decade. It's a great ski market, you know, they have…00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:55.000Doug Fish: 3 phenomenal resorts within an hour of downtown Seattle, Stevens, Crystal.00:38:55.000 --> 00:39:11.000Doug Fish: Summit. That's no qualming help at all. So you know, we found a venue up there that was affordable, you know, an old airplane hangar. And you know, we put a show up there, and it did well. And so we thought, Okay.00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:10.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:18.000Doug Fish: Uh, we didn't really want to go to California, uh, so we started looking east because.00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:21.000Stuart Winchester: You, you didn't wanna go to California, why not? I mean, that's a huge market.00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:30.000Doug Fish: Um, yeah, it is a huge market, and, you know, maybe we'll go to the Bay Area. There's a big show down in LA called Ski Dazzle that's still going, a big show.00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:31.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:32.000Doug Fish: And, um…00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:44.000Doug Fish: Uh, but to my knowledge, nothing significant in Northern California, so we may go there someday. But, um, you know, where we… where we went, it's really…00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:52.000Doug Fish: you know, I knew that the Indy Pass was going to be successful back east because there's so many resorts, and more importantly, so many people.00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:55.000Doug Fish: And, and so.00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:03.000Doug Fish: We started looking to the east and Milwaukee, you may think, well, that's kind of a weird place.00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:23.000Doug Fish: Wisconsin's the number four ski state in the country in terms of number of ski resorts. And Michigan is number three. So, you know, or maybe it's number two, but yeah. So, you know, there's a lot of passion in the Midwest. And I knew that from working with the resorts out there.00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:07.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:15.000Stuart Winchester: It's 2.00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:35.000Doug Fish: you know, Rick Schmitz has been a great ally and supporter of mine, and you know we've been friends for many, many years, and he said, Hey.00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:39.000Doug Fish: Uh, come and do a show in Milwaukee, and I'll help you promote it, and…00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:54.000Doug Fish: you know, there just happens to be a big sports complex right there at the base of Crystal Ridge, which he owns. And, um, you know, they had space that would work for a show, so we popped a show in there, and it worked.00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:10.000Doug Fish: Um, and then we were all set to go into Chicago next, you know, kind of an eastward progression, uh, either Chicago or Detroit, and, um, I got a call.00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:17.000Doug Fish: from a friend of mine in New England. They said, Hey, Snowbound is leaving Boston.00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:20.000Doug Fish: You guys should come out here and do a show.00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:38.000Doug Fish: And I thought, oh my gosh, that's the best ski show market in the country, you know, it's been going for 65 years. And so Quinn McIntyre and I jumped on a plane in early December, when there was absolutely no snow, by the way, in the West.00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:58.000Doug Fish: And so we, of course, took our gear, and we spent a week in New England skiing some phenomenal powder at Loon, and Jay Peak, and Bretton Woods, and Black Mountain, and, you know. But we also, you know, met with a few venues back there, and found one that made sense out in Marlboro.00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:45.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:51.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:09.000Doug Fish: Uh, a nice suburb of… of Boston, and… and made the decision right then, okay, we're gonna do this. We signed a 3-year lease, or 3-year contract for… for the space.00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:14.000Doug Fish: And here we are. We're in Boston.00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:19.000Stuart Winchester: So, so to, so to clarify for listeners, Snowbound still exists. It moved to the Mohegan Sun.00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:23.000Stuart Winchester: Casino in Connecticut. So that show, indeed, will still go on.00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:29.000Doug Fish: Yes. Yeah, they didn't go away, they just moved… they just changed locations, and… and they're a couple hours from Boston now, so…00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so, so…00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:31.000Doug Fish: Thank you.00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:32.000Doug Fish: Go ahead.00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:48.000Stuart Winchester: So each of these shows you go to and, you know, the gear is great and I'm sure that's why a lot of people go. I'm obviously super into the ski area, so when I go and I look at the deals tab on Snovana.com, the first thing I see at the top of each.00:42:48.000 --> 00:43:05.000Stuart Winchester: list of ski areas that will be there, and their deals are free lift tickets for Willamette Pass, when you're out in the Western shows, uh, I believe in the Midwest, you get one free at Little Switz, or Nordic, or Crystal Ridge, then out East, it's Black Mountain Maine, and there's some others as well, I'm just…00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:53.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:02.000Doug Fish: Yep.00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:04.000Doug Fish: Okay.00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:08.000Stuart Winchester: Highlighting some. So, talk a little bit about…00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:07.000Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:25.000Stuart Winchester: that, because, I mean, you pay $5 to get in, and this is… it's funny, because it's kind of a throwback to the pre-pass era, when you kind of have to collect your own pass, and find all these coupons, and, you know, Warren Miller would have, like, a free ticket to Sugarbush or whatever, so… so just talk a little bit about that, and what.00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:20.000Doug Fish: Yeah, right.00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:21.000Doug Fish: Yes.00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:23.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:29.000Stuart Winchester: attendees can expect to find their deals wise.00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:36.000Doug Fish: Oh, yeah. Well, that's what motivates people is deals. We say the deals are great and the stoke is free.00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:36.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:39.000Doug Fish: And yeah, I, you know.00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:45.000Doug Fish: Can't help but mention in Boston, we have Black Mountain of Maine.00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:47.000Doug Fish: Neshoba.00:43:47.000 --> 00:44:03.000Doug Fish: and Mcintyre, all giving away free lift tickets for your with your admission. And yeah, so 5 bucks, or for 5 bucks you probably get. I don't know. That's 200 bucks worth of lift tickets, and that that's before you know all the other swag that people are giving away.00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:50.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm, sure.00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:03.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:14.000Doug Fish: So, yeah, I mean, it takes a lot to get people off the couch to come down and park and, you know, go to an event. And, excuse me.00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:19.000Doug Fish: So we try and pack as much value into the ticket as we can. Um…00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:39.000Doug Fish: And all the resorts are there with deals. There'll be 37 resorts in Boston and 70 across the country. They're all offering deals of some kind, whether they're selling a season pass for a discount or a three pack or a daily lift ticket.00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:43.000Doug Fish: And that's what people want.00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:44.000Stuart Winchester: 8. Yep.00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:52.000Doug Fish: And, you know, those are just the lift tickets. The gear is… the deals on the gear is what really brings people in.00:44:52.000 --> 00:45:06.000Doug Fish: And, um, you know, we can… I can confidently say that we've got some of the best selection of new and slightly used gear for 40% to 80% off.00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:07.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:14.000Doug Fish: And, you know, we spend all summer collecting it from manufacturers, from reps, from, you know, demo fleets.00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:30.000Doug Fish: And the retailers that we work with in each market, they also, you know, they bring last year's stuff that didn't sell. They bring maybe their lease fleet that, you know, they're retiring. And there's just some incredible deals, and…00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:36.000Doug Fish: You know, people will walk out saving hundreds of thousands of dollars.00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:40.000Doug Fish: If they can spend the time, you know, looking around.00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so, so, lip ticket deals, gear deals, another thing you'll find there, uh, at least at the Boston show, is me and I will be doing live interviews on Friday with Eric Mogenson, the owner of IndiePass and IntoBenny. Then on Saturday…00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:51.000Doug Fish: Yes.00:45:54.000 --> 00:46:13.000Stuart Winchester: I will be hosting live on stage at Snovana Boston, or Suburban Boston, or New England, or whatever you want to call it. The owner of Killington, Phil Gross, and also the president, Mike Solomano, who I've had on my podcast before, but this will be our first live event. This is the third time I've done this sort of event.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:05.000Doug Fish: Uh-huh.00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:20.000Stuart Winchester: For Snowvana, I did one last year with Lonnie Gleiberman of Mount Bohemia at the Milwaukee show, and I did one.00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:29.000Stuart Winchester: I think maybe it was the year… two years before that, in Portland, with a panel of general managers. It's been a lot of fun, and… and, you know, that's a…00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:25.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:46.000Stuart Winchester: That's a disclosure. I've worked, I guess, for Snowvana because these, you know, I don't do these things for free. It's, it's a, it's a business, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a business deal. And, um, and those things take a lot of work, as you know, but, but that, that's just one example. All right.00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:38.000Doug Fish: No.00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:48.000Stuart Winchester: Talk about just…00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:59.000Stuart Winchester: I guess quickly just run through the dates of the other shows, and the sorts of things that people can expect to be on the stages, or other things I haven't mentioned yet.00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:00.000Doug Fish: Yeah.00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.000Doug Fish: Excuse me.00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:08.000Doug Fish: We don't spend a lot of time with speakers. You're kind of the only one, Stu.00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:12.000Stuart Winchester: That's not true. Sean Suttner, my friend, is doing one the next day.00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:12.000Doug Fish: Yeah, the great Sean Sutner.00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:23.000Doug Fish: Yeah, Sean Suttner from the Worcester Gazette and Telegram will be there on Sunday interviewing the ownership team from Wachusett.00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:21.000Stuart Winchester: Crowley's.00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:23.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:42.000Doug Fish: But yeah, I mean, we have live music. We've got, you know, frozen T-shirt contests this year. We're launching the pray for snow dance contests. And we've got this thing called the Sumo Bowl. It's a inflatable boxing ring and 2 inflatable beer cans. You put these on your body, and.00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:50.000Doug Fish: you try to knock your buddy down, and if you do, you're entered to win a pair of skis. I mean, it's just stupid stuff, but people love it.00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:50.000Stuart Winchester: Right, right.00:47:50.000 --> 00:48:04.000Doug Fish: And so those are happening at all the shows. Great gear sales, lots of resorts, free lift tickets. The great Stu Winchester in Boston this year.00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:56.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:15.000Doug Fish: And and then, you know, we've got this thing called the cream of the swap. It is a special section in the gear sale.00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:07.000Stuart Winchester: Don't oversell it.00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:30.000Doug Fish: in the ski swap where we feature a lot of higher end product, mostly, you know, brand new 2627 demo skis. It's all mount. They're all mounted. They've been skied 2 or 3 times.00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:38.000Doug Fish: And there's just some incredible deals there, 40% to 50% off on essentially brand new gear.00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:53.000Doug Fish: And, um, so you'll find those features at all of the shows. Each market, you know, had some slight differences and, you know, based on what's going on locally and how the venue's laid out, but…00:48:53.000 --> 00:49:03.000Doug Fish: You can go to our website and check out what's different in each show if you want, what the different deals are. All the deals are listed.00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:10.000Doug Fish: Uh, that, you know, the resorts are giving away, or the retailers are giving away for, you know, discounting.00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so don't hold me to this, because they could change, so check the website, please, before you go. But right now, I'm scheduled to interview Al… Excuse me.00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:36.000Stuart Winchester: Eric on Friday, November 6th at 5.30pm Eastern, and Phil Gross and Mike Solomano of Killington at 2pm on Saturday, November 7th. Those are in Marlboro, Massachusetts. So the… the only thing that I think we can hold Doug to at this point.00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:44.000Stuart Winchester: is… is the dates. So, Seattle, Washington, October 16th to 18th, at Hangar 30 in Magnuson Park.00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:50.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the Portland show is October 23rd to 25th at Portland Expo Center, where it's been for several years.00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:51.000Doug Fish: Mmhm.00:49:50.000 --> 00:50:06.000Stuart Winchester: The show that I'll be at will be in Marlboro, Massachusetts, November 6th to 8th at the Royal Plaza Trade Center, and you wrap the season in Franklin, Wisconsin at the Crystal Ridge Ski Area, or the Mosh Performance Center, November 13th through 15th, and again, we won't.00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:13.000Stuart Winchester: resorts and everything else, because I'd imagine you're adding more all the time. You do have a special treat for my listeners, Doug.00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:15.000Doug Fish: Yes, we do.00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:16.000Stuart Winchester: If they want to go to any of those, right?00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:22.000Doug Fish: Yeah. Thank you, Stu, for having me on, and thank you to your listeners for, you know, listening to this podcast.00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:30.000Doug Fish: Um, if you want to go to Snow Vaughan and check it out, because you're a fan of Stuart Winchester, you can get a free ticket.00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:47.000Doug Fish: And oh, the code. So there's a promo code. Go to our website, snovana.com, and, you know, click on Buy Ticket, and the promo code that'll get you a free ticket is THESTORM26. THESTORM, all lowercase, 26. You should put that up on the screen.00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:49.000Doug Fish: Stu, um…00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:51.000Stuart Winchester: I will have my editor do that.00:50:50.000 --> 00:51:02.000Doug Fish: Okay, good. And, uh, yeah, get a free ticket, come down, get some, you know, some swag, some free lift tickets, and find a deal on a pair of skis, or a snowboard.00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:05.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, any… so that's for this year…00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:09.000Stuart Winchester: You have any sense of where you want to go next?00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:14.000Doug Fish: Oh, yeah. Yeah, we've got Philadelphia booked for 2027 through 2019.00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:13.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, really?00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:33.000Doug Fish: We will be in the King of Prussia suburb of Philly. Quinn McIntyre, my colleague, is from Philadelphia, so he's pretty stoked about that. And so we'll be there, and then, you know, we're looking at some other potential.00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:25.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:34.000Doug Fish: expansions.00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:40.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, and do you anticipate these 4 locations returning for 27, or is it too soon to say?00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:55.000Doug Fish: Oh, yeah, we anticipate all of them just, you know, going gangbusters this year, and we'll be back, but, you know, it's like an election. You never know how it's gonna go until election day, and uh…00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:07.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, Doug. Well, look, I appreciate you coming on the show again. I never know where I'm gonna see you next. You mentioned you were in New England last December, and I had gone up there for the Ski New Hampshire media event they hold every December, and…00:51:55.000 --> 00:51:56.000Doug Fish: So…00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:23.000Stuart Winchester: I turned around at one point, and there's Doug Fish and Quinn walk through the door. I was like, the last thing I… the last people I expected to see at the Ski New Hampshire media night, because you guys are usually, uh, locked into the West Coast at that time of year, but… but it was a pleasant surprise, so, uh, next time I see you, hopefully.00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:12.000Doug Fish: Bye.00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:19.000Doug Fish: Yeah. Okay.00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:28.000Doug Fish: Yeah, hopefully it will, Stu, and it's always a pleasure. It's great to be back on the show.00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:33.000Stuart Winchester: You too, man. Talk to you soon.00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:40.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, that was Doug Fish, founder of IndiePass and Snovana.00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:56.000Stuart Winchester: Let's do a little quick reader react, listener react, and then we'll get outta here for today. So there you got some reaction to the podcast that I put out on Monday with Pajarito, New Mexico, general manager Jason Bellamy.00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:12.000Stuart Winchester: Gary Luft says, as a New Mexico local, I am pumped about Powerito getting these upgrades. I've been a pass holder at Ski Santa Fe, but this year I'm going with MCP's Power Pass. Thanks to Stuart for giving some attention to our great unknown.00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:25.000Stuart Winchester: to those outside of New Mexico, mountains. You're welcome, Gary. I, uh, love all ski areas, and I'm sorry I have not given more love to New Mexico in the past, though I have done a couple of Taos podcasts. So the Power Pass, for those who.00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:32.000Stuart Winchester: don't know what Gary's talking about is… is Mountain Capital Partners owns about a dozen ski areas, including two down in Chile, and… and…00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:48.000Stuart Winchester: The power pass is, is basically their epic pass, right? It's the unlimited pass at all of their mountains, not unlimited at the Chilean ones, but you can see all the footnotes on their website. Uh, the point is it, it, there's three different versions and the cheapest version, it's 4 49 right now, I believe.00:53:48.000 --> 00:54:05.000Stuart Winchester: gets you unlimited access to Pajaritos, Sapapu, and Sandia Peak in New Mexico, and it gets you quite a bit of access at MCP's other resorts as well. The full unlimited version is unlimited at all of MCP's U.S. mountains, including really, really good ones like Purgatory, Arizona Snow Bowl.00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:18.000Stuart Winchester: I've also got Lee Canyon on there, which is a super gorgeous ski area outside of Las Vegas I talked about the other day. And again, the PowerEater upgrades he's referring to are… PowerEater's just putting in this massive snowmaking system that's…00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:23.000Stuart Winchester: Doubling is a fire suppression system, so it's, uh, it's super… it's a…00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:40.000Stuart Winchester: Partnership with local governments that they're doing this through. So it's, it's a really cool model that hopefully other ski areas around the West can learn from and copy. Jeremiah Kay says, interesting episode. I think wildfire mitigation will be an increasingly important component of helping get snowmaking permitted in the West.00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:50.000Stuart Winchester: 100% agree. Jeremiah Kay continues, The ski school and MCP episodes back-to-back got me thinking about urban opportunities to learn and progress as a skier.00:54:50.000 --> 00:55:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mostly because I always thought MCP should acquire the Outpost Ice Rink at the base of the Sandia Tram, and put their version of the indoor part of Woodward in that facility.00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:13.000Stuart Winchester: Would love an update episode on the state, urban, indoor… uh, state, I think he's saying state of urban slash indoor ski areas. I know you covered Big Snow well, not sure what happened to Alpine X.00:55:13.000 --> 00:55:21.000Stuart Winchester: Much like Epic and Icon add small feeder hills, I wonder if they will add something like Snowbond to a past product.00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:38.000Stuart Winchester: A little surprised we don't have Woodward Brooklyn in a warehouse somewhere. Yeah, I think, Jeremiah, that that would get back to Doug's earlier comment about why the urban ski shows mostly died. It's just the expense. You don't… and the Brooklyn warehouse, as you well know.00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:40.000Stuart Winchester: is not inexpensive.00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:55.000Stuart Winchester: thing to find these days, even though they still look like they're 150 years old, because they are. I don't know what happened to AlpineX, either. I check in with them for an update once in a while, and they keep answering my emails, but there's nothing to report. I would imagine they're caught up either in permitting.00:55:55.000 --> 00:56:13.000Stuart Winchester: or financing hell, and probably both. Continuing, Allison says, this pod does a great job showing the appeal of smaller, out-of-the-way resorts. Thank you very much, Allison. That is a core part of the storm. I love ski areas, large and small. Patrick says, I had to rewind to double-check after listening to the first 10 minutes.00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:30.000Stuart Winchester: You recapped the exciting things MCP has done while mentioning every ski area except Arizona Snowball. Later, it made more sense. You discussed Snowball specifically with Jason and called out the potential for Power Rito to follow the same transformative storyline, and you probably planned that all along.00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:42.000Stuart Winchester: This was a great interview about a skier I'd love to check out one of these days, and maybe snowmaking will make it more feasible. Yeah, you know, Patrick, it's interesting. There's a little nuance there in that that big snowmaking project?00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:57.000Stuart Winchester: I believe all happened before MCP bought Snowbowl, so I hesitate to give them credit for it. I do give them credit for all the things they've done since, you know, putting in the Chadala and.00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:12.000Stuart Winchester: really revamping that ski area, and… and uh… I think the power pass and everything else has been great for it, and I think MCP's doing a… a great job across their portfolio, so… so you're right. It was… it was, uh, something I didn't get to till later, and… and I'm always…00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:13.000Stuart Winchester: a little bit…00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:22.000Stuart Winchester: indecisive about how much credit they should give her, but I am working on a separate podcast that's going to focus on that, so stand by for that.00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:24.000Stuart Winchester: Scott Abraham…00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:39.000Stuart Winchester: Bajarito, Powerito, Powerino, don't care what AI calls it, had one of the best powder days of my life 15 years ago or so. Girlfriend in Santa Fe, who worked at Los Alamos, drove her up on Thursday and headed for the mountain, 2 feet afresh since they closed Monday.00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:54.000Stuart Winchester: Over the groom, helly skiing quality, amazingly friendly locals who were delighted to show off their mountain to the tourists from Seattle, and green chili on my inexpensive burger, of course. Might have to visit her again this winter and sneak up on Thursday. Alright, Scott's a tough critic, so…00:57:54.000 --> 00:58:03.000Stuart Winchester: if he likes something, uh, that's a good sign that it's probably pretty good. So that's an endorsement, uh, from someone who typically complains about everything.00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:20.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Aiden says, in the last comment, I was referring to Scaria operations and management programs when he said SROM, or similar at several colleges. Thanks again for the great work. So Aiden was referring to a previous comment he made in an episode when he said, uh, you should find out more about SROM programs in your…00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:27.000Stuart Winchester: And I said, you're right, I should, because I have no idea what they are. All right, thank you, Aiden, for clarifying that. That will be our show for today.00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:43.000Stuart Winchester: Please go to stormskiing.com and subscribe to the Storm Ski Newsletter. You can start with the free tier and the very best way to up to support my mission of independent ski journalism is to upgrade to the paid tier, which will give you the ability to interact with the podcast and all of the written content.00:58:43.000 --> 00:58:50.000Stuart Winchester: below the paywall, which typically is about 80% of the storm. Been a little slow lately, but like I said, it will pick up.00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:52.000Stuart Winchester: You can rep the storm.00:58:52.000 --> 00:59:05.000Stuart Winchester: like this hat if you're watching, uh, with hat, shirt, hoodie, go to stormskiing.myshopify.com. Please follow the storm on Instagram, TikTok, or YouTube, at Storm Ski Journal. Till next time, stay well, stay safe.00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:21.000Stuart Winchester: I'm Stuart Winchester, and I'll talk to you again very soon. No show tomorrow on Thursday. I'm recording a couple on Friday. We'll put one out Friday, one out Saturday. That's the plan anyway. General managers of Mount Southington, Connecticut, and our good friend Dennis Eshbaugh.00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:25.000Stuart Winchester: who has run Holiday Valley in New York for decades.00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:32.000Stuart Winchester: Till next time, stay well, stay safe. I'm Stuart Winchester, and I'll talk to you again very soon.00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:36.000Stuart Winchester: All right, sorry, you'll have to smooth me out a little at.00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:38.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so, uh…00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:40.000Stuart Winchester: Just a couple notes.00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:42.000Stuart Winchester: Um…00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:44.000Stuart Winchester: There's, uh…00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:48.000Stuart Winchester: At the end, Doug says a discount code.00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:55.000Stuart Winchester: Storm, lowercase, 26, and he wants us… he said, put that up on your screen. I said, I'll ask my editor to do that. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

It would not be difficult to locate a photo of The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast drinking canned Miller Lite shirtless in a lake while wearing a backward baseball cap. There is therefore nothing I can say here that can hurt anyone more than I've already hurt myself.Vail Resorts reported fourth-quarter and end-of-fiscal-2026 earnings yesterday. I'm no financial analyst, but the numbers are what I would call “not good”:[Epic] Pass product unit sales through September 18, 2026 for the upcoming 2026/2027 North American ski season decreased approximately 12%, days sold decreased approximately 10% and sales dollars, inclusive of sales and admissions taxes, decreased approximately 6%, as compared to the prior year period through September 19, 2025.Which, whatever - the only Epic Pass numbers that really matter are the ones that Vail Resorts reports in December, after the product goes off sale. Up until two years ago, annual sales ranged from “all right” to “pretty good” to “damn-I-guess-making-a-season-pass-cheaper-than-a-frozen-burrito-moves-passes.” Unit sales - meaning the number of Epic Pass “products” (we include Epic Day) sold - increased every year from the pass' introduction in 2008-09 until 2024-25. Even then, unit sales only declined by two percent:Notably, Epic Pass sales dollars (right-hand column above), have never declined year-over-year. That could change this year.Vail executives seemed oddly fatalistic about declining Epic Pass numbers. CEO Rob Katz noted, during yesterday's earnings call, that destination guests' hesitation to buy (mostly, he implied) Epic Day Passes after last year's crummy winter was an opportunity for Vail to “lean in to be more competitive on lift ticket pricing.” It's all very disconcerting: after working for years to diminish the lift ticket as an Idiot Tax product-of-last-resort-that-will-either-force-you-to-buy-an-Epik-Pass-or-give-up-skiing-forever, Vail is betting on discounted lift tickets that sit well above peak rates from a decade ago to prop up financials as pass sales level off to yeah-2-million-passes-is-all-42-ski-areas-can-realistically-handle-anyway-Brah levels. Weird. Wonder what this guy thinks?McBrosephs I have takes. Just remember that when I go in on the Bros, it's more self-reflective diary than attack on American culture. Though it's also that. And when I go in on Vail, it's acknowledging the good things they've done to democratize the season pass even as the company destroyed a perfectly good product that it now wants to summon as a savior.The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast will adopt one hamster for every new paid subscriber. Just kidding hamsters are weird I once watched one give birth and systematically devour her offspring. No thanks dude I'll take the rats that live under my porch. What's good, Fat Boy? Anyway if you like skiing subscribe to my newsletter because I like it too: Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast wants you to know that there is skiing in New Mexico. Even beyond Taos. Subscribe for constant journeys into such improbable ski realms:WhoJasen Bellomy, General Manager of Pajarito, New MexicoDate RecordedSeptember 28, 2026Also discussedUpgrades across Mountain Capital Partners' portfolio (see chart below), and reader reaction to last week's pods - especially the EuroSki ep with Iain Martin.About PajaritoOwned by: Mountain Capital Partners, since 2014; company also owns:Year founded: 1957 - predecessor ski area, Sawyers Hill, founded nearby by the same ski club in 1944Pass affiliations: Power Pass, Power Pass Select, Power Pass Core - unlimitedBase elevation: 9,000 feetSummit elevation: 10,440 feetVertical drop: 1,440 feetSkiable acres: 280 trail acres + unspecified glade acreage (though Bellomy urges caution in the glades)Average annual snowfall: 125 inchesLift count: 6 (1 fixed quad, 1 triple, 3 doubles, 1 carpet) - view Lift Blog's inventory of Pajarito's lift fleet.Why I interviewed him“Ski New Mexico,” you say? Those three words underwhelm, but the stat sheet suggests that skiers miss out by dismissing New Mexico:Those are respectable vertical drops, and some nice acreage with modernizing lift fleets. Taos gets all the Ikon/Mountain Collective destination attention, and deserves it, after building seven new aerial lifts and otherwise sweeping the place clean over the past dozen years. But just about every New Mexico ski area is investing: Angel Fire props up the state's first sixer for winter 2026-27, just a year after dropping a second quad, Rake's Rider, onto its east side to spread skiers out between blues and blacks:Ski Santa Fe, Ski Apache, and Red River have collectively built or relocated another five lifts in the past decade. Tiny, super-south Cloudcroft seems like a mess, with little online presence and minimal operations (the bump lacks snowmaking). But overall, New Mexico is a bit of a big-mountain secret, with dry desert snow when it comes.The key to this improbable kingdom is base elevations among the highest in America:It's not quite Colorado, but they're high:And it's high enough to get us to nine active New Mexico ski areas in 2026, which is probably nine more than most people think the state has. But even cloud addresses are not enough to keep these survivors around forever. They need snowmaking. Taos' system - a big part of the mountain's modernization under billionaire Louis Bacon, who bought the ski area in 2013 - runs to nearly 11,000 feet. But the smaller areas are building more firepower too. MCP, which operates one-third of those ski areas, stapled together a nice system at Sipapu, the company's first acquisition, in 2000. Now, after years of negotiations, MCP is working with state and Los Alamos County officials on an $18 million snowmaking modernization plan for Pajarito:A five-mile pipe will shuttle water approximately 2,000 vertical feet up from Los Alamos to Pajarito's summit reservoir. But this is not just a snowmaking project: firefighters will be able to tap hydrants along the five-mile route or dip the 10-million gallon reservoir with helicopters. The impact, MCP officials believe, will be substantial, and could mirror the turnaround of the company's Arizona Snowbowl ski area. Prior to running a 15-mile-long snowmaking pipe 3,000 feet up from Flagstaff, Snowbowl's seasons swung wildly, from 162,000 visits in winter 2000-01 to just four operating days the following season. Now, Snowbowl is consistently one of the last ski areas in the nation to close, with a 185-day 2024-25 season that ended on June 1. Repeating that success at Pajarito would, according to officials, give skiers seasons up to 140 days long - more than double the ski area's traditional 60-day winter.So yeah, ski New Mexico, Man. It's weird, I know. Down there in the desert. But there's water if you get creative and work together. (Now we just need to see if MCP can repeat some version of this deal at snow-starved Sandia Peak.)Additional reading* A Ski profile of Pajarito by Nick Heil, 2016* Pajarito's blog tracking the snowmaking projectTranscriptsThere are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don't know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio. I only included my conversation with Jasen in this transcript - you can read my editorial on MCP or my reaction to reader's comments in the other transcript, but frankly I'd either listen to them or skip those sections.ZoomStuart Winchester: My guest today has been the general manager of Powerito New Mexico since 2023.00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:26.000Stuart Winchester: Bajarito's predecessor ski area, Sawyers Hill, was founded by top American scientists and soldiers working on top secret research, including the Manhattan Project in Los Alamos during World War II.00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:46.000Stuart Winchester: In 1957, the Los Alamos Ski Club moved the facility up to Pareto, where today, 5 chairlifts serve 1,440 vertical feet on 280 skiable trail acres, plus glades. Pareto is one of 13 ski areas operated by Durango, Colorado-based Mountain Capital Partners.00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:52.000Stuart Winchester: and one of three that the company operates in New Mexico, including Sipapu and Sandia Peak.00:35:52.000 --> 00:36:09.000Stuart Winchester: Prior to joining the team at Power Reno, he worked at Saddleback, Maine, Sugarbush, Vermont, Pratchett, New Hampshire, and all the way back at the start of his career as a lifty at Waterville Valley, New Hampshire. He served a tour in the Marine Corps and spent several years working in air traffic management technologies.00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:16.000Stuart Winchester: Jason Bellamy is my guest. Jason, welcome to The Storm. So good to have you. How is life in the mountains of New Mexico today?00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:24.000Jasen: Oh, man, thanks for having me. Super excited. Uh, busy. And wet, currently.00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:38.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, yeah, yeah, it's… I'm out on the East Coast, it's been raining all weekend, so… so I… look, I know you got a ton going on, so let's jump right into it. The headline, if you go to Powerito's website right now, which, by the way, if I'm saying the name of the scary wrong, you.00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:48.000Stuart Winchester: 2700% more water for snowmaking, so lay this out for us, Jason. What did Powerito's snowmaking system look like before, and what are you…00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:50.000Stuart Winchester: Building up.00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:57.000Jasen: So, historically, it was about 2010 that we were able to.00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:04.000Jasen: while it was still operated by the Los Alamos Ski Club, they put in a very bare-bones snowmaking system.00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:10.000Jasen: and captured surface runoff in the springtime to fill a 10 million gallon pond at the top of the mountain.00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:17.000Jasen: The runoff did not yield enough water to fill that pond.00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000Jasen: So for…00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:35.000Jasen: pretty near a decade, there's been this effort to get a pipeline connecting the county to the Ski Hill for both wildfire suppression and firefighting capabilities, as well as solidifying the future for the Ski Hill.00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:43.000Jasen: That pipeline is going to provide us with about, we'll be able to cycle that pond about six times a winter.00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:55.000Jasen: Um, which, with 60 million gallons, we should be able to make about 300 acre-feet of snow. So, theoretically, when we're done with this, we could cover the entire mountain with 12 inches of man-made snow.00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:13.000Stuart Winchester: So talk about, I guess, to start with, just that pipeline. I mean, there's echoes here of Arizona Snowbowl, your sister mountain, which ran a pipeline all the way down to Flagstaff from its mountain. And from the press materials, it looks like this is being run up.00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:20.000Stuart Winchester: from Los Alamos. So how long is that pipeline? Where does it start? And what does the effort look like to put that in?00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:23.000Jasen: Yeah, great question. Um…00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:39.000Jasen: The project started over half a decade ago, the real nuts and bolts of it. It's a really complex project. It involves running that pipeline across DOE land, Llano property, Santa Fe National Forest. We had to get the county, the state, and the federal government.00:38:39.000 --> 00:39:01.000Jasen: behind it, and it's amazing how everyone's come together. So, after about five or six years of negotiating and all the legal work required, we were able to break ground. The pipeline's about five miles long, and as a result of previous wildfires that have sparked up from the overhead power lines, we decided to go ahead and put the power underground as well.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:03.000Jasen: Um, so…00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:16.000Jasen: The… we're also running fiber infrastructure in the road associated with the project so that we can create backhaul to Albuquerque to solidify our communications for the community as well.00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:20.000Jasen: There's a lot more going on with this project than just water.00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:22.000Jasen: Oh.00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:23.000Jasen: The…00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:36.000Jasen: there'll be 4 booster stations to push the elevation to get it to the mountain, and then it'll tie into a 250,000 gallon tank, which will energize all the fire hydrants along Camp May Road.00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:42.000Jasen: And then from there, we push it to the summit pond out of a pump station.00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:52.000Stuart Winchester: So, so we're looking here at the, at the map of, uh, here's Puerto Rico and then here's Los Alamos. Does the, does the pipeline come from up from the.00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:59.000Jasen: It does. It starts down just on the corner of the DOE property at the bottom of Camp May Road.00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:03.000Jasen: It's a few thousand feet down, um…00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:05.000Jasen: Once you get…00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:07.000Jasen: Yes.00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:10.000Stuart Winchester: Click around, here's Camp May Road, where it meets up with West Road.00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:10.000Jasen: So, on… on…00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:21.000Jasen: Yes, uh, just to the, uh, I guess that would be east on West Road. If you scroll your mouse to the corner there, you can see there's a tank right there.00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:16.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:21.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:29.000Jasen: We built another half million gallon tank there, and then that's where the first booster pump will reside.00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:45.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. Well, that is a major project. I mean, just talk about the effort of that. I, you know, I guess it's a partnership. Did you share in the cost of construction of all this? And what did it take to run a pipeline five miles?00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:50.000Stuart Winchester: And I'm not sure what the elevation is it starts at, but I imagine you have to also push that water up.00:40:50.000 --> 00:41:06.000Jasen: It's close to 2,000 feet of elevation gain, and it is a financial partnership. It's probably one of the first of its kind where we've got federal, state, local, and private dollars to accomplish the mission.00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:55.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:10.000Jasen: It's really just amazing to see the support.00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:17.000Jasen: And everything come together. Los Alamos and Mountain Capital Partner developed a.00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:22.000Jasen: an agreement. So, the state was, uh…00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:29.000Jasen: basically funded with a grant, the project, um, for $8 million, and then FEMA's kicking in.00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:30.000Jasen: Um, so…00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:40.000Jasen: an amount to be determined to bury those power lines. Historically, Los Alamos has been very affected by two, um, huge wildfires.00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:53.000Jasen: With hundreds of millions of dollars in, um, asset loss. So, the water getting up there, and Parito, the way it sits, is kind of like a frontline defense to protect the town and the lab.00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:54.000Jasen: Oh.00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:59.000Jasen: So, it's amazing that everything's come together the way it has.00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:10.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I want to linger on that water point for a moment here, Jason. You know, I never really appreciated this until I was talking to some of the guys who run ski areas in Southern California, and I believe this is your pond right here.00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:15.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, which you anticipate being full, and I'm not sure if there's an older picture, if that's what.00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:12.000Jasen: Yes, it is.00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:18.000Stuart Winchester: So so.00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:19.000Jasen: That's pretty current.00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:35.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah, so this is Google Earth. So I was speaking with Robbie Ellingson, who runs Mount Baldy, right above Los Angeles, and Carl Kabasinski, who runs Mountain High, just there, I guess, a little bit east of the city. And the way they explained it to me, I never thought about this, was…00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:41.000Stuart Winchester: When they have these full ponds in the summer, the helicopters can just come and dip the pond.00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:57.000Stuart Winchester: ponds for fire suppression. And so I, I guess that would help answer the question of, you know, we always hear about water shortages in the, in the West, right? So, so how is the ski area building, you know, all this snow making, don't we have better things to use water for? So, so just talk about that relationship.00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:05.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, with… with the, uh, firefighters and… and the firefighting infrastructure this is creating, as well as being useful for snowmaking.00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:18.000Jasen: But yeah, you brought up two interesting points there, sir. First and foremost, yes, they will be able to dip out of the pond. We're also putting in a dry hydrant so that we can hook pump vehicles up to it.00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:20.000Jasen: Um…00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:32.000Jasen: The other thing, I think Mountain High in California, one of the things they did when that fire came through there was they energized their snowmaking system in the summer and just turned on all the snow guns.00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:33.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:37.000Jasen: And from what I understand, that that had a beneficial…00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:50.000Jasen: outcome. Um, it could have been a lot worse, apparently. So, there's a bunch of different things, and we've got water now that we can push, you know, multiple locations across the mountain as we build out our pipelines.00:43:50.000 --> 00:44:01.000Jasen: in our snowmaking infrastructure. So we're gonna put water across this 750-acre piece of land that is pretty critical in the defense of Los Alamos.00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:08.000Jasen: And then the other thing you mentioned, which I hear a lot, is how can we waste all this water for skiing?00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:21.000Jasen: But fundamentally, if you consider what mountains are, they're a storage device for water during the wintertime. We take the water from the earth, we pump it up the hill, yeah, we're using energy, but we're conserving the water on the hill.00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:36.000Jasen: as stored water, and in the springtime it melts and goes back into the aquifer. So 80 to 90 percent of the water that we use is going to go directly back into the land. I mean, what we're losing is what we lose to sublimation through evaporation into the atmosphere.00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and in the fires in the past where a couple of Poweritos lifts were damaged, having this on site would theoretically have at least mitigated the damage to some point. So what I have up on the screen here, Jason, as you know, but for the folks watching on stormskiing.com or YouTube.00:44:54.000 --> 00:45:09.000Stuart Winchester: is, uh, your phased snowmaking plan. So just talk us through this. Is this year one, year two, year three, or… or how do you… how do you envision or plan for this to play out in real life? And then, you know, here's…00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:14.000Stuart Winchester: Pario's trail map for reference, but just to see the snowmaking plan.00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:24.000Jasen: This was originally the concept that we were going to roll with. Like any major project, there's speed bumps in the road.00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:35.000Jasen: So we've had to pivot a little bit. Um, we're putting a lot more resource into the actual delivery of water in year one, so we had to scale back a little bit of the on-hill distribution.00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:36.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:43.000Jasen: For this winter, we're gonna add about 50% in snowmaking coverage, acreage wise.00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:50.000Jasen: Uh, we did not get into the pump stations. We're working on engineering and design of, um, future pump stations.00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:52.000Jasen: Right now…00:45:52.000 --> 00:46:02.000Jasen: We're at about 1,000 GPM, gallons per minute, for production pumping capacity, and next year we plan to increase that by 400%.00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:07.000Jasen: Um, final design build out of 4,000 gallons per minute.00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:09.000Jasen: which…00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:09.000Stuart Winchester: And yeah.00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:11.000Jasen: Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:29.000Stuart Winchester: So, final of 4,000 gallons per minute. You have some trails in white here that are not phased. Do those already have snowmaking, or do you want to keep some stuff natural? I see your famous kind of front four steepies here. A couple of those are white. So, talk to us about the white trails and what's planned for those.00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:34.000Jasen: So, those will just be… those will be El Natural?00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:41.000Jasen: Classic, you know, old school bump runs and let Mother Nature take care of those.00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:49.000Stuart Winchester: All right, so another interesting thing about Pyroido, Jason, is…00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:57.000Stuart Winchester: It's the only major New Mexico skier area, other than Angel Fire, that does not operate, as far as I understand it, on U.S. Forest Service land.00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:12.000Stuart Winchester: So who does own the land? You referenced a lot of different entities here. I know there's a partnership with the county. Does MCP own the land? Was that given to the county? Take us through the land ownership and the sort of different parties that are involved here and have an interest.00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:17.000Jasen: So, the land historically was…00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:22.000Jasen: Um, owned by the Los Alamos Ski Club.00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:28.000Jasen: Through over the course of time, they did some land exchanges with DOE.00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:32.000Jasen: So back in 14 when the ski club needed support.00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:49.000Jasen: Um, James and Mountain Capital got involved, and originally, MCP was going to assume the liabilities of the ski area and operate the ski area. The bank didn't like that arrangement, so it took about 3 or 4 years to get through the legal work.00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:58.000Jasen: And currently, the majority of the land is owned by MCP. That was a requirement from the bank to transfer the liabilities against the assets.00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:05.000Jasen: And then there's one shoulder over on the west side that was originally part of, um…00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:09.000Jasen: I believe it was the Dunnigan family owned it.00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:17.000Jasen: And they gave it to the ski club, and there was a first right of refusal on any future transfer of the west side.00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:32.000Jasen: So currently, we're still working through the legal details on that. And in the transfer of the land, the ski club said once the pipeline was established and operational, that they would be willing to transfer the remaining land to MCP.00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:39.000Jasen: So that's happening here pretty quickly, and there's still… there's a bunch of legal work to satisfy the first right of refusal.00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:46.000Jasen: Um, but essentially, Parrito, the 750-acre parcel, is completely privately owned.00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:48.000Jasen: Oh.00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:50.000Jasen: Which is pretty rare in the West.00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:57.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. So you're a little late to snowmaking, but it's… in some ways, I would think…00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:01.000Stuart Winchester: an advantage to install a snowmaking system, kind of…00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:17.000Stuart Winchester: from whole right now, because the technology's gotten so good, right? You can start low energy, you can start with automation, if you want. Talk to us about who you worked with, whether it's SMI or HKD or whoever, uh, to plan out your snowmaking system, and what sort of technology.00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:21.000Stuart Winchester: you're able to deploy to make sure you get the most snow out the most efficiently.00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:27.000Jasen: Yeah, great question. So, the partners that we've most…00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:33.000Jasen: We worked with, uh, Torrent is working with us on some of the pump stations.00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:46.000Jasen: The pipe design layout, electrical. Brandon, I'm sorry, Jeff and the guys from Slope Works have been here supporting the physical installation.00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:55.000Jasen: And because of the history of Puerto Rico, we originally had a — it was a TechnoAlpin system. So we've got some legacy TA gear here.00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:49:55.000 --> 00:50:04.000Jasen: And then, we've also started working with SMI on some of their equipment. One of the things that, um…00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:11.000Jasen: we're balancing is… there's so much need in terms of how much infrastructure we have to build and how much equipment we have to purchase.00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:16.000Jasen: So we're kind of balancing the future with today's needs.00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:22.000Jasen: Automation is not inexpensive, so we're doing kind of a semi automation.00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:34.000Jasen: where we can run actuators on the hydrants, but it's not a full-blown system. The original system that was installed back in the early 2010 period, um…00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:41.000Jasen: That system didn't work out very well for Power Reno, so we've pivoted and moved in a different direction.00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:58.000Stuart Winchester: So, you know, you've had snowmaking for a while. I'd imagine you got some guys who are pretty good at it. I saw one of your videos, you brought in a fellow from Pennsylvania. I always say that Pennsylvania is home to some of the best skier operators in the world because they have to be masters.00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:14.000Stuart Winchester: of snowmaking, because if you don't have it, you're just not going to open. I know you're an East Coast guy yourself, so what have you done as far as, okay, you got this great new system, have you brought in some folks who are more experienced with snowmaking to help out? Are you confident you have the experience yourself?00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:18.000Stuart Winchester: What's your plan to make sure you get the most out of the system right away?00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:36.000Jasen: So we got Brandon on board and one of the things that's challenging at every skier across the country is staffing. So for this winter we really need to nail it and we reached out to Seasonal Labor Solutions.00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:29.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:42.000Jasen: And they have a team of professional snowmakers that basically do the Never Summer.00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:55.000Jasen: Um, so after the guys get done making snow for the Birds of Prey up in Colorado, a couple of those guys are gonna come down and support us this winter for the season to make sure that we get it right.00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:52.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:01.000Stuart Winchester: Awesome, so they're coming straight to you from Beaver Creek. That's… that's impressive. That's good. And, you know.00:51:58.000 --> 00:52:00.000Jasen: Yeah!00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:09.000Stuart Winchester: Tell us how much it helps to be part of a larger group like Mountain Capital. I'm particularly interested because this Arizona Snow Bowl.00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:24.000Stuart Winchester: story just amazes me, how they… and I realize this was done before MCP arrived, but they ran the pipeline all the way up from Flagstaff, and, you know, Arizona Snowbowl, in the 2001-2 season, was open 4 days, and did 3,000 skier visits.00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:39.000Stuart Winchester: Last year, even in a bad winter, it was open 134 days, 185 the season before that. They keep it open until June a lot of years, and that's a sister mountain of yours. So we're talking about Arizona, you know, high desert.00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:51.000Stuart Winchester: Probably, I would imagine, a pretty similar climate to what you're dealing with. How much have you learned from talking to them, and how valuable is it to have that support sort of in-house, so to speak?00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:55.000Jasen: Oh, yeah, it's critical.00:52:55.000 --> 00:53:10.000Jasen: It's funny that you picked up on that. The storyline behind Power Rito and Snowball, I mean, you couldn't draw a more parallel story. It's the same thing. And realistically, you know.00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:08.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:18.000Jasen: what they did in Arizona is exactly what we plan on doing in New Mexico. Um, the…00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:27.000Jasen: Part of that is, you know, our philosophy is skiing first, and it's, you know, as soon as we can open, and as long as we have snow, we're gonna run a chairlift.00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:39.000Jasen: And I do believe New Mexico is ripe for the picking. I think Puerto Rico is slated to become the king of spring. There's a lot of great mountains here, but everyone shuts down like the first or second week of April.00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:43.000Jasen: And that's not the vision that we have for Power Reno at all.00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:49.000Jasen: Well, we plan on having margaritas on the deck, Cinco de Mayo, and hopefully a lot.00:53:49.000 --> 00:53:51.000Jasen: Few more weekends after that.00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:55.000Stuart Winchester: So, so Pat Ridley, looking back at historical skier visit data was.00:53:55.000 --> 00:54:10.000Stuart Winchester: One of the least busy ski areas in New Mexico, you know, Cloudcroft obviously barely operates, but uh someone within MCP whispered to me that they think that Parito within a few years could be the busiest ski area in New Mexico with these upgrades.00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:12.000Stuart Winchester: Is that is that the aim?00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:16.000Jasen: That's… that's kind of the goal, yeah.00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so how thorough will the transformation be? Because I saw this in some of your materials. Power Radio averaged 60 days open per season. You want to increase that to 120 to 140. Does that mean… I'm not sure if you go 7 days a week right now, and you have the snow, but…00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:36.000Stuart Winchester: But just talk to us about what that could mean for the skier if you're able to achieve that.00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:45.000Jasen: Well, I mean, there's so much to unpack there. I mean, the economic impact for the community, the labor…00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:46.000Jasen: um…00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:52.000Jasen: Bottom line is, yes, we are going 7 days a week, effective this winter.00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:54.000Jasen: um…00:54:54.000 --> 00:55:05.000Jasen: And the plan is, you know, Thanksgiving, as soon as we can get open. Two years ago, we got a monster storm, and I think we were the only skier in the southwest other than Wolf Creek open.00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:11.000Jasen: And we were busier that day than we were the previous winter. So there's the demand.00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:12.000Jasen: Oh.00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:22.000Jasen: So, from the very first cold snap, and we've designed and built the new snowmaking system that we put in this year to be able to open it with about 40 hours of snowmaking.00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:23.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:33.000Jasen: So, we're looking to do things quite a bit differently, and be super aggressive. Uh, and the plan is, you know, we'll run 7 days a week into April.00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:44.000Jasen: And then as the demand tails off, and the snow starts to melt, we'll run weekends until we just can't anymore. So, my goal is Thanksgiving to May every year.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:49.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. Okay. And what's the, what's the sort of alpha trail that opens first, closes last? I don't know, maybe they're different.00:55:49.000 --> 00:55:52.000Jasen: Uh, it would be Pussycat.00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:55.000Jasen: It's kind of shaded, it's in between the two peaks.00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah.00:55:55.000 --> 00:56:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, is that one of those, uh, double black bumpers off of the mother lift?00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:07.000Jasen: No, it's off of Aspen. It sits in the saddle between Aspen and Mother. Um, it's a blue square.00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:04.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:05.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:08.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:11.000Jasen: But it's a really great fall line trail.00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:26.000Stuart Winchester: So, so let's talk about the Aspen lift. So the Aspen lift was one of those ones that was damaged in the 2011 fire. It is, uh, a 1982 SeaTac triple 1,143-foot vertical rise, 3450 length, so a pretty substantial.00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:36.000Stuart Winchester: lift, and, and I think your most important lift out of your base. So, so you got a lot, you're, uh, spiffing that lift up. Take us through Aspen and what you're doing with it this offseason.00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:43.000Jasen: Yeah, so as you pointed out, um, our historical average is about 60 days. Um, that lift.00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:45.000Jasen: um…00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:54.000Jasen: Because of the limited seasons, we looked at that lift and said, you know, all this snow in the world isn't going to do us any good if we can't get the people to it.00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:55.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:55.000 --> 00:57:06.000Jasen: So, we went through… we have major lift projects in the works, but we have to do this piece by piece. The first piece was get the water. Second piece is be able to use the water.00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:16.000Jasen: So as a stopgap for the meantime, we went through and rewired the entire lift, all new controls, new drive.00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:19.000Jasen: New hydraulics for the brake systems.00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:23.000Jasen: We just did the return bull wheel bearing this summer.00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:33.000Jasen: Basically, everything short of the steel and the carrier has been updated, and the goal there was really reliability.00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:33.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:57:33.000 --> 00:57:39.000Jasen: So when you show up to Puerto Rico this winter, you're not gonna see a sexy new lift, but you're gonna have a very reli.00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:40.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:55.000Stuart Winchester: So, so Aspen Triple's getting an upgrade, and then your rest of your lift fleet, you have 3 doubles. Uh, this Beginner is an 81 Seatech. Uh, Mother is a 76 Riblet double. Uh, Spruce…00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:14.000Stuart Winchester: is a 69 riblet double, and then Townsite is a 94 quad, so I imagine you're pretty happy with Townsite, but what are some of those projects that you're eyeballing? What can you share with us, Jason, about, ultimately, I mean, because once you double the season, the revenue should follow, right? You should be able to make some investments.00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:18.000Stuart Winchester: What would you like the Lyft fleet to look like, ultimately, at Pareto?00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:32.000Jasen: I think currently we're looking at, um, the next… the first focus would be updating Motherlift, um, and I do suspect, based on conversations that we had, that that lift, uh, winds up being a detachable.00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:38.000Jasen: Townsite, I'm really glad you brought that up. That's a 1994 Lyft.00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:39.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:43.000Jasen: That exposure got heavy, uh, burn scars during the fires.00:58:43.000 --> 00:58:48.000Jasen: And that lift, as a 94, doesn't even have 4,000 hours on it.00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:49.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:53.000Jasen: So that lift is in pretty, pretty new shape in terms of wear.00:58:54.000 --> 00:59:05.000Jasen: Um, so, the big focus right now, the next piece is, uh, getting the mother lift done, uh, with the new lift, and we've got some other things that we're talking about doing in association with that.00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:01.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:15.000Jasen: That peak overlooks the Valle Caldera, which is an absolutely amazing, breathtaking piece of New Mexico landscape. So there's a lot of…00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:14.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:33.000Jasen: a lot of opportunity with the detach. Um, discussions around Chandler have been thrown around. Um, the idea being is, you know, from the top of that peak, having a, um, potentially a banquet, um, event center at the top of the lift, and being able to use that in the off-season for.00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:38.000Jasen: Dinners and different type of corporate functions and stuff like that.00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, everyone I talk to, Jason, just tells me that weddings are going off. They're so busy, they can't keep up. It's just, it's such a natural thing, and now folks are starting to think about it, especially in the East. It's really popping. Any thoughts on spruce? I mean, I love an old riblet double.00:59:54.000 --> 01:00:04.000Stuart Winchester: you know, they look cool, uh, there's a couple hundred of them still spinning, but, you know, probably won't last forever. Any ideas for spruce long-term?01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:13.000Jasen: I think, Spruce, that lift, uh, based on the parking lot, there's a stairwell that goes right up to it. It's a really popular lift.01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:00:13.000 --> 01:00:27.000Jasen: It's a redundant lift. You can ski off at Aspen and get the whole middle of the mountain, but that lift does have tremendous value. That would probably be the second lift that we look at.01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:38.000Jasen: The timing on that, I'm not sure. We haven't really gotten that far in the master planning. Um, but based on that profile, I would imagine that that becomes a fixed-script quad.01:00:32.000 --> 01:00:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:48.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. And, and do you like where the lifts are? You like the layout? They, they did a good job that your predecessors or, or do you wanna move anything around, like as far as where it loads or lands?01:00:47.000 --> 01:00:58.000Jasen: I think there might be a slight realignment on the mother lift. That lift doesn't truly go to the top of the… there's a few feet of elevation that you can gain.01:00:51.000 --> 01:00:52.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:00:58.000 --> 01:01:04.000Jasen: so that the alignment would kind of come down between, um, Mother… Big Mother Trail and Pussycat.01:01:02.000 --> 01:01:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:05.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:11.000Jasen: And land a little bit closer to the base area, in that triangle of trees at the bottom there.01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:14.000Jasen: And the…01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, go ahead.01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:26.000Jasen: But realistically, I mean, the scientists and all the folks that worked on this project back in the day did a really great job of laying out the mountain.01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:29.000Stuart Winchester: Is there, yeah, go ahead.01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:28.000Jasen: And…01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:38.000Jasen: Oh, I just… the other thing I think that's kind of cool to know, I don't think that there's a larger ski area in the country that was built by volunteers.01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:43.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, no, I don't think so either. There's a lot of, uh…01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:50.000Stuart Winchester: of ones that I'm sure you know from your time in the East that were started with Civilian Conservation Corps, but that wasn't volunteer, those was putting men to.01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:55.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and I… most volunteer-built ski areas are, like.01:01:55.000 --> 01:02:11.000Stuart Winchester: A rope tow and a couple of trails like this is, this is impressive. I, I cannot believe what they did here is, you know, looking around and I, and I know you explained the land situation. Is there any potential for expansion in any direction or, or is this the footprint that you're working with for the foreseeable future?01:01:57.000 --> 01:01:59.000Jasen: Yeah, yeah.01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:15.000Jasen: There's…01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:26.000Jasen: A couple things. So, Camp May is a campground. The county has approached us about doing a management agreement. With the water line, they're going to be able to put water in.01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:02:25.000 --> 01:02:27.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:02:26.000 --> 01:02:30.000Jasen: It's a primitive campground right now. It's beautiful.01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:33.000Jasen: A lot of people come up here to escape the heat.01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:34.000Jasen: um…01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:43.000Jasen: The way this bowl is laid out, it's amazing. When I first got out here, we had, you know, we were skiing on 60, 70 inches of snowpack, and the mountains…01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:45.000Jasen: That we're looking at.01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:56.000Jasen: are completely bare. It's just the sun angle. Uh, it's… coming from the east, it's just… it's pretty trippy. But, um, I think we're pretty much…01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:50.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Yeah.01:02:56.000 --> 01:03:04.000Jasen: the footprint that we're in right now is pretty much, I think, about what it's gonna be, just because of the aspect.01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:08.000Jasen: And, you know, where we can hold snow.01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:23.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, two more quick things for you, Jason, I'll let you go. This one's kind of for your more hardcore. I saw in one of your posts that the Crazy Mother Terrain Park was being, uh, quote, regraded into a regular run. Does that mean you're not going to have a terrain park at Barrio this season?01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:32.000Jasen: No, the exact opposite is true. With snowmaking, it gives us the ability to ensure that we can build quality parks.01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:27.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:48.000Jasen: One of the things that I am really passionate about, I grew up ski racing, so getting consistent seasons so that we can host USSA races, support USASA, we want to have events and we want to grow.01:03:37.000 --> 01:03:39.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:03:48.000 --> 01:03:54.000Jasen: the foundation for our sport to make sure that it survives for the next several generations, so…01:03:54.000 --> 01:04:03.000Jasen: Those pieces, the train parks, the available train for ski racing, and all the ancillary stuff that comes with that, we're 100% behind.01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:17.000Jasen: I've got… I saw a lot of pushback, and I've heard a lot of pushback about the Crazy Mother Train Park getting bulldozed down. The problem was, is that stuff hasn't… hadn't been used in years. Um, they built some really big stuff, and it was too…01:04:13.000 --> 01:04:14.000Stuart Winchester: Really?01:04:17.000 --> 01:04:21.000Jasen: It was too large. We didn't have progression to get to that level.01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:26.000Jasen: When we need something like that, we'll build it again.01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:40.000Stuart Winchester: I've heard the same thing from operators all over the country. Those big ones, they're impressive and people like to look at them, but in reality, they're expensive and not a lot of folks use them or have the skill to use them. So that's a pattern I've seen all over the country.01:04:40.000 --> 01:04:45.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, so the last thing I wanted to touch on here, Jason, I mean, I…01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:52.000Stuart Winchester: I mention this every time I talk about MCP, but I think it's hard to… I can't mention it enough. I mean, the PowerPass…01:04:52.000 --> 01:04:56.000Stuart Winchester: This thing is unbelievable. Kids 12 and under are free.01:04:56.000 --> 01:05:12.000Stuart Winchester: Everyone. No parent purchase required. And right now, the PowerPass Core, which is unlimited at your ski area in Sipapu and Sandia Peak, and has lots of access to the other ski areas in MCP's portfolio, it's $449. I mean, it was $299 if you grabbed it early.01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:21.000Stuart Winchester: But talk a little bit about that power pass, and do you think people in Los Alamos really get it? Like, kids 12 and under are free, do you hit the schools, do you hit that hard?01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:14.000Jasen: Yes.01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:28.000Jasen: We do, um, we… it's amazing how the message just doesn't resonate loud enough.01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:35.000Jasen: But when you look at our organization, Skiing First, like, that's real. That's like the Bible.01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:39.000Jasen: And one of the things I think everyone within the organization looks at is.01:05:39.000 --> 01:05:55.000Jasen: How do we strip back the barriers to access? Price is number one. So the 12 and under ski free, I mean, that's just something that the entire organization just firmly believes in. We want to cultivate and grow our sport, and we feel like there's no better way.01:05:55.000 --> 01:05:58.000Jasen: Than to get kids involved at an early age.01:05:58.000 --> 01:06:01.000Jasen: And then the pass pricing for, um…01:06:01.000 --> 01:06:13.000Jasen: Every year that I've been with MCP, springtime comes around and the pass pricing discussion comes up, and it's not even a discussion because, like, they're not increasing pricing, and they're really proud of that.01:06:13.000 --> 01:06:19.000Jasen: Another thing that we're doubling down on this year, which is really cool, is $9 Lyft tickets.01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:22.000Jasen: I mean, 9 bucks, with a $10 resort credit.01:06:23.000 --> 01:06:25.000Stuart Winchester: We're basically free.01:06:25.000 --> 01:06:29.000Jasen: We're paying you a dollar, you know?01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:32.000Stuart Winchester: That… and is that… that's not every day, is it?01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:47.000Jasen: No, that's… it's limited availability, but when we launch, um… I think Purgatory, Snowbowl, and Brian had a launch ticket, so if you hop on the computer right now and you say, I want to go ski on such and such day, you can get a $9 ticket with a $10 resort credit.01:06:34.000 --> 01:06:35.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:43.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.01:06:48.000 --> 01:06:50.000Stuart Winchester: That's incredible.01:06:48.000 --> 01:06:53.000Jasen: It's not gonna last all winter, but… I mean, the deals are out there.01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:51.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.01:06:51.000 --> 01:06:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah.01:06:53.000 --> 01:07:01.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and you have, uh, so is it a… when you have a $9 day, is there a limited number of $9, and it goes up to $10 or $11?01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:08.000Jasen: It's incremental. Yeah, it's an extremely dynamic pricing system.01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:03.000Stuart Winchester: et cetera.01:07:03.000 --> 01:07:04.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay.01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:06.000Stuart Winchester: All right, well…01:07:07.000 --> 01:07:12.000Stuart Winchester: That's… and have you… have you rolled those out yet at Pareto?01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:15.000Jasen: We plan to launch our tickets in the next couple weeks.01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:18.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, do you know how many days we'll have that $9 price?01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:23.000Stuart Winchester: Is it, like, one or two, or is it, like, dozens.01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:27.000Jasen: No, in October, it'll be, like, 80% of the season.01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:26.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:07:26.000 --> 01:07:36.000Stuart Winchester: Oh my gosh, okay. All right, well, set your timer. All right, I'll leave us with this, Jason, because I have a lot of listeners on the East Coast.01:07:28.000 --> 01:07:29.000Jasen: Yeah.01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:53.000Stuart Winchester: And who have never skied Parado. I imagine most people haven't skied Parado because New Mexico is sort of like the forgotten ski land. Uh, but a lot of my listeners have skied the places that you've worked at. So I know you grew up at Hunter Hunter's Madness. I love Hunter. There's nothing else like it.01:07:53.000 --> 01:08:08.000Stuart Winchester: But it's just, it's just New York City sort of transposed onto the ski slope. Uh, Crotchet, more of a college scene, kind of like, you know, they have the high speed quads, a lot of night skiing, you know, a lot of like beer in a lap. Uh, Sugarbush.01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:25.000Stuart Winchester: More of a resort, lots of natural snow, great skiing, you know, gets busy, but people get spread out around the base, and it has, obviously, the two mountains. And Saddleback is just, like, this glorious, you know, highest elevation in the east, up there. Uh, it doesn't get too busy, because it's far from everything.01:08:25.000 --> 01:08:27.000Stuart Winchester: Of those four.01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:33.000Stuart Winchester: that my listeners are probably familiar with a couple. What is Powerito? Which one is Powerito most like, and why?01:08:34.000 --> 01:08:45.000Jasen: Interesting question. Uh, yeah, New Mexico, the land of enchantment. Um, when I moved out here from the East Coast, everyone asked me why I was leaving the ski industry.01:08:44.000 --> 01:08:45.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:08:45.000 --> 01:08:54.000Jasen: The lack of awareness… New Mexico's the best-kept secret. You can fly into Albuquerque, grab a rental car, not hit any traffic, and be a skier in less than 2 hours. It'.01:08:48.000 --> 01:08:49.000Stuart Winchester: There.01:08:52.000 --> 01:08:54.000Stuart Winchester: Love it.01:08:54.000 --> 01:08:57.000Jasen: But Paul Rito, I would say…01:08:58.000 --> 01:09:09.000Jasen: I would say it's very similar in feel to Saddleback. Saddleback is kind of a hidden, quiet gem. It's just far enough you have to pass everything else.01:09:03.000 --> 01:09:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:12.000Jasen: On a busy day at Parrito.01:09:12.000 --> 01:09:18.000Jasen: Because we have 300 acres and we only have fixed scripts getting you up the hill.01:09:18.000 --> 01:09:31.000Jasen: the downhill to uphill ratios are a lot different than what most skiers are today. Throughout my life, I've seen detaches go up where there used to be a double, especially at… Hunter's a perfect example, right?01:09:31.000 --> 01:09:38.000Jasen: When I started skiing there, there was a summit double chairlift, and now there's, I think, 3 different detaches that put you at the top of that mountain.01:09:38.000 --> 01:09:46.000Jasen: Um, so we've increased the uphill capacity and not addressed the downhill capacity, and I think it's watered down.01:09:46.000 --> 01:09:57.000Jasen: the experience a little bit. Powder Retail is the way it used to be. You get to the top of the mountain, and you ski down a trail, and even on a powder day, you have the trail to yourself. It's amazing.01:09:57.000 --> 01:10:01.000Jasen: It's it's what I fell in love with as a kid.01:10:01.000 --> 01:10:04.000Jasen: And Paul Rito still has that.01:10:04.000 --> 01:10:13.000Stuart Winchester: That is an awesome vision. And I read here and there that the Glades are pretty good, and that's something else Saddleback has. Talk to us about the Glades at Power Reno.01:10:15.000 --> 01:10:19.000Jasen: Yeah, the… with some of the, um…01:10:19.000 --> 01:10:26.000Jasen: When we get sufficient snowpack, you can go into the trees, but with all the burn scars and stuff.01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:30.000Jasen: You really want to be cautious about the woods. Um…01:10:28.000 --> 01:10:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:10:30.000 --> 01:10:35.000Jasen: I'm actually trying to get the tree message removed from our marketing campaign.01:10:33.000 --> 01:10:36.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, I see. Okay. Okay.01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:48.000Jasen: So, uh, I would really define Palo Rito more as… there's certainly trees to get into, I mean, don't get me wrong, it's not a J Peak, if you will, um, but…01:10:48.000 --> 01:10:54.000Jasen: It's in-your-face fall line skiing, more so than I think most in New Mexico.01:10:50.000 --> 01:10:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that's true.01:10:53.000 --> 01:10:56.000Stuart Winchester: But you are allowed in the trees when there's snow?01:10:56.000 --> 01:10:58.000Jasen: Oh, yeah.01:10:57.000 --> 01:11:13.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. And, uh, just one last thing, just because I… this popped into my head. Saddleback was doing some really cool things with, like, portable rope tows in their terrain park, their lower level, uh, by, like, the Sandy Lift when they put in the new one. Were you involved with all that before you came out?01:11:14.000 --> 01:11:16.000Jasen: I, I was.01:11:15.000 --> 01:11:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and so that's kind of cool. I really like rope tows for terrain parks because they, you know, you can lap, lap, lap without having to ride a lift. Is that something you've thought about for Power Radio at all?01:11:26.000 --> 01:11:33.000Jasen: Yeah, as a matter of fact, uh, if you want to pull up the trail map, I'll show you kind of what I got thinking here.01:11:29.000 --> 01:11:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.01:11:31.000 --> 01:11:33.000Stuart Winchester: All right, let's do it.01:11:33.000 --> 01:11:35.000Jasen: So…01:11:35.000 --> 01:11:37.000Stuart Winchester: Here's a trail map.01:11:37.000 --> 01:11:41.000Jasen: Yeah, so the bottom of Lone Spruce…01:11:42.000 --> 01:11:48.000Jasen: Right now, we're having a hard time to really… the beginner lift…01:11:49.000 --> 01:11:53.000Jasen: On a busy day, we don't want to add a lot of traffic on that lift.01:11:52.000 --> 01:11:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:11:53.000 --> 01:12:04.000Jasen: Down here below East Road on the bottom of Daisy May and the bottom of Lone Spruce, there's a perfect little triangle in there when we're not running spruce lift.01:12:04.000 --> 01:12:05.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:16.000Jasen: The thought process is potentially for next year. We're on a surface lift up along the looker's left side of the bottom of Daisy May.01:12:15.000 --> 01:12:16.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:12:16.000 --> 01:12:24.000Jasen: So that if that lift isn't running, that parking lot is the easiest access to snow, so you could boot up in your car, ride up.01:12:24.000 --> 01:12:30.000Jasen: We've got snowmaking down in there, and that could be the beginning of our future, um…01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:35.000Jasen: uh… beginner level terrain park, and that lift would…01:12:33.000 --> 01:12:35.000Stuart Winchester: That's awesome.01:12:35.000 --> 01:12:40.000Jasen: would give you the bottom of Lowen Spruce, the bottom of Daisy May.01:12:39.000 --> 01:12:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:12:40.000 --> 01:12:43.000Jasen: And also access from that parking lot back to the lodge.01:12:44.000 --> 01:12:53.000Jasen: So, exactly, think of what, you know, the lodge is below the train park at Saddleback, but essentially kind of the same thing that we did at Saddleback.01:12:49.000 --> 01:12:50.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so…01:12:53.000 --> 01:12:55.000Stuart Winchester: That's really cool.01:12:53.000 --> 01:12:56.000Jasen: To access that lower section.01:12:56.000 --> 01:13:00.000Stuart Winchester: And with a portable rope tower, would you put something more permanent in?01:13:00.000 --> 01:13:03.000Jasen: Probably something a little more permanent.01:13:02.000 --> 01:13:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:13:04.000 --> 01:13:05.000Jasen: Um…01:13:05.000 --> 01:13:09.000Jasen: Because even when we do replace Sloan's spruce lift.01:13:10.000 --> 01:13:17.000Jasen: You know, do you really want to ride… if you're just looking to nail a couple features, do you really want to ride a 6 or 7 minute chair?01:13:16.000 --> 01:13:17.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:13:17.000 --> 01:13:21.000Jasen: When you can just loop and cycle that lower area.01:13:23.000 --> 01:13:32.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that's awesome, Jason, and I imagine being right above a city, you have a good, you know, young skier demographic for that, so…01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:42.000Stuart Winchester: All right, Jason, listen, I really appreciate all this. This is, uh, it's really exciting, and now I've skied a little in New Mexico, but I gotta get out there, and I'm always telling people these kind of…01:13:42.000 --> 01:13:58.000Stuart Winchester: fringe areas, if you're coming from the East Coast, they see… they're as big as an East Coast ski area, and there's no one there. And they're wonderful skiing, so this sounds, uh… this first time I focused on Power Reno, it sounds kind of like that if you were an East Coast skier coming out.01:13:59.000 --> 01:14:08.000Jasen: Yes, yes. Even on the busiest of days, it's just… it still amazes me how awesome the terrain is. And you know.01:14:08.000 --> 01:14:16.000Jasen: all of the places I've worked, we've talked about some of the different skiers I've worked at, um, in the East. The other thing that I think is important to note.01:14:16.000 --> 01:14:17.000Jasen: Because of…01:14:17.000 --> 01:14:20.000Jasen: Just the quantity of people.01:14:21.000 --> 01:14:28.000Jasen: At 3 or 4 o'clock, the trails get stomped. I mean, you're down to, like, boilerplate, everything's scrapped off.01:14:26.000 --> 01:14:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:46.000Jasen: And, uh, that was the other thing that blew my mind when I got out here. The quality of skiing from 8 AM to 4 PM is pretty consistent. Like, you just don't get that, oh, you know, I'm going to the pub to have a beer because it's already scraped off at 1 o'clock or 2 o'clock, you know. It's just, it's great skiing from first chair to last.01:14:34.000 --> 01:14:35.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:14:36.000 --> 01:14:37.000Stuart Winchester: Awesome. Yeah.01:14:41.000 --> 01:14:42.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.01:14:47.000 --> 01:15:02.000Stuart Winchester: Incredible. All right, Jason. Well, I'm going to come test that theory hopefully this winter. If not, I'll make it out at some point and hope to take a couple turns with you. So thanks so much for all your time, especially I know how busy you are. It's a huge project. I really appreciate it.01:15:02.000 --> 01:15:05.000Jasen: Thanks a lot, Stuart. It was awesome talking to you. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast thinks that yelling “PIZZA!” and “FRENCH FRY!” at a 2-year-old superman straightlining down a green slope is a highly effective ski instruction technique. If you agree, please sign up for my newsletter:WhoBrian Bensch, founder of Snow SchoolersDate recordedSeptember 24, 2026About Snow SchoolersSnow Schoolers, per its website, is an “independent ski school program” that teaches lessons “at any mountain where we've established a revenue-sharing partnership with the ski area.” Skiers sign up for lessons on their Pet Rectangles, like this:Why I interviewed himThat sounds pretty neat, right? Let me go see if Snow Schoolers teaches at my favorite mountain. Snow Schoolers probably does not teach at your favorite mountain. Unless your favorite mountain is 222-vertical-foot Granlibakken, which is about five feet away from 6,000-acre Palisades Tahoe, or 100 vertical-foot Frisco Adventure Park, tucked off highway 9, after 1.5 million-ish skiers exit I-70 on their way to nearby Breckenridge.That is not an indictment of small ski areas, which I love, or Snow Schoolers' business model, which I also love. Rather, it's my way of saying that the only way to sign up for ski school at Palisades Tahoe or Breckenridge is through Palisades Tahoe or Breckenridge. With the strange, grandfathered-in exception of the strange, cobbled-together ski bazaar that is Summit at Snoqualmie in Washington, all major American ski areas (so far as I know) operate with a monopoly over ski school operations on their property. In ways subtle and aggressive, they police and ban rogue instructors who would offer discounted lessons on resort property.There are probably ways to break this system, either through the courts or legislative amendment of the Forest Service leases that 125 U.S. ski areas operate on. Such change sounds radical only in an American context - most European ski areas already operate with multiple independent competing ski schools onsite. Over the past 20 years, technology has challenged monopolies across American commerce. Sports and concert tickets and taxi rides offer two prime examples of power shifting from one central operator to many operators, with benefits and drawbacks for the consumer. Perhaps we will get there with ski school. For now, I see a more practical path for an asset-light, app-based, independent ski school like Snow Schoolers - as the costs of labor, utilities, infrastructure, and insurance pile up, perhaps outsourcing the operation of a ski school is more practical for many smaller, independent ski areas than establishing and maintaining one of their own. That is what you get at Granlibakken and Frisco: Snow Schoolers pays the ski areas a share of each lesson, essentially as rent for the right to operate a ski school on their property. And Granlibakken and Friso don't have to worry about hiring instructors and organizing lessons. There are probably 100 under-resourced ski areas in America where this model could work tomorrow. Brian and I discuss why Snow Schoolers works where it does, and why the model has been slow to spread.TranscriptsThere are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don't know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.ZoomStuart Winchester: My guest today founded Snowschoolers in 2014 with the mission to make skiing and riding affordable and accessible for average Americans.00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:11.000Stuart Winchester: and to pay snow sports pros a sustainable living wage.00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:19.000Stuart Winchester: Today, Snowschoolers operates at Grand Lebakken in Lake Tahoe, and Frisco Adventure Park in Colorado, two small ski areas.00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:36.000Stuart Winchester: Last year, Snow Schoolers hosted approximately 6,000 students. He is a good friend of the Storm. He is Brian Bench. Brian, welcome to the Storm. You reached out to me very shortly after I launched in 2019 or 20, and we've been talking for years, and you've helped me out a lot.00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:38.000Stuart Winchester: With the…00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:45.000Stuart Winchester: digital side of things, which I'm not so good at, so it's awesome to finally get you on and talk some snow schoolers. How you doing today?00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:48.000Brian Bensch: Doing lovely. Can't complain. Always busy, never bored.00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:52.000Stuart Winchester: And that is… yeah, that is a picture out your window of Tahoe, right?00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:00.000Brian Bensch: Yes, that is a, it's called Maggie's Peak, but that's looking at the little lake just next to Emerald Bay.00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:05.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, which would be sort of north side of the lake, so you'd be looking…00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:03.000Brian Bensch: Oh.00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:08.000Brian Bensch: South Tahoe, kind of on the other side of the corner, like, across from Heavenly.00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:18.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, south, right? I was… I was backwards. So… so on the… up the left side, there would be Homewood, and then up the right side would be Heavenly and Diamond Peak, and at the top is, like.00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:10.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:15.000Brian Bensch: Correct.00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:19.000Brian Bensch: Mostly correct.00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:26.000Stuart Winchester: Or North Star? North Star, Northwood. Okay, alright, uh, before I hurt myself, let's just get into this. So, so Brian.00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:28.000Brian Bensch: Well, we'll get you out to Tahoe soon enough, and then your Tahoe geography will get.00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:31.000Stuart Winchester: It's been a minute. So…00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:40.000Stuart Winchester: What is broken about American ski schools, and how did you try to fix it with snow schoolers?00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:45.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. So I would say similar to, you know.00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:49.000Brian Bensch: The the general diatribe about, you know.00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:55.000Brian Bensch: The ski industry being kind of broken with lift tickets too expensive and climate change is gonna end the world.00:17:55.000 --> 00:18:07.000Brian Bensch: Not everything is broken, but particularly the most front and center in your face resorts that you know everyone hears about, and you know, makes the quote unquote mainstream news has been broken for a while.00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:15.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, the gist is, if you roll up to, you know, a Tier 1 destination resort.00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:16.000Brian Bensch: Brooke, uh…00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:32.000Brian Bensch: Not only is lift ticket price what it is, but if you are looking for a group lesson, you're looking at a couple 100 bucks. And if you're looking for a private lesson, you're lucky if you can find anything that is under 1000 today. When we started Snow Schoolers, I remember telling people like, you know, a private lesson is $700 or $800.00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:35.000Brian Bensch: Well, now it's roughly double that.00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:51.000Brian Bensch: And I started teaching skiing back in college at the Dartmouth Skiway shout out to Mark and the team there, and you know I thought it was the best job ever making 12 bucks an hour in college, but it is still a minimum wage hourly job.00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:55.000Brian Bensch: Despite the high margins that resorts take.00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:59.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, wait, wait, let's, let's pause right there. So over a thousand a day for a lesson.00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:07.000Stuart Winchester: patrollers are making… I think at the Tier 1 resorts, they're probably making more than minimum wage. I think it's probably more in… at least in the 20s.00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:10.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, the, the, go ahead.00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:09.000Stuart Winchester: Plus tips, but, but.00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:19.000Stuart Winchester: Still, right, so you figure it's $1,200 a day for a lesson, and the instructor's getting, you know, $150 of that, or something. What… why…00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:23.000Stuart Winchester: Why does that model even exist? Like, who would even do that?00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:25.000Brian Bensch: Out.00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.000Brian Bensch: Because…00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:31.000Stuart Winchester: Like, who would work for that? Like, when you, right? Like, why not just give your own lessons?00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:29.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:44.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, well, and there's two sides… two sides of the mark, and I, uh… outside of my passions for skiing, I consider myself sort of a marketplace, you know, guru of sorts. And, you know, on the supply side, or, like, the staffing side.00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:33.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:52.000Brian Bensch: could ever imagine, and there's a reason why people love to teach skiing.00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.000Brian Bensch: One of the, I would say.00:19:54.000 --> 00:20:03.000Stuart Winchester: Hey, Brian, I'm sorry, you froze there for probably about, like, 5 seconds. Um, I don't know if you're on a hard line, or you have good Wi-Fi, or…00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:00.000Brian Bensch: Okay.00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:11.000Brian Bensch: It's Tahoe Wi-Fi. But it's generally fine, unless it goes out and flickers, but…00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:05.000Stuart Winchester: Is it?00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:07.000Stuart Winchester: It's Tahoe Wi-Fi.00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:13.000Stuart Winchester: you…00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:19.000Brian Bensch: I can close a couple tabs, that might help. Or we can just… I don't want you to… I know editing is tough.00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:17.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:22.000Stuart Winchester: No, no, no, you, you, uh, can you plug in, possibly?00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:25.000Brian Bensch: I don't have an Ethernet.00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:31.000Stuart Winchester: You know, okay, alright. Um, yeah, let's just, yeah, try to close some stuff, and we'll keep going, and at worst case, you can, uh, go off screen.00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.000Brian Bensch: Yep.00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:32.000Brian Bensch: Sure.00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:38.000Brian Bensch: To pick back up the… the kind of…00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:54.000Brian Bensch: Why is it, you know, possible for a lesson to cost $1,200 and the instructor only keeps 20% of that? There's two components to it. The first is that, you know, historically there was a glut of ski instructors going back into the 60s, 70s, 80s.00:20:54.000 --> 00:21:10.000Brian Bensch: Uh, you know, the, the quintessential ski bum, uh, is and was a great job, particularly for people that, you know, get the addiction that I know we both have. Um, and so, you know, lessons didn't used to be this expensive, um, just like lift tickets didn't used to be this expensive.00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:29.000Brian Bensch: Um, and so just like being a lifty, being a ski instructor was, you know, maybe a slight step above, you know, requires more training, but it has always been the sort of an entry-level hourly position. Um, and it's certainly not the federal minimum wage at most resorts. Uh, when Vail came out, uh, post-COVID with the $20 an hour kind of cross-board raise.00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:41.000Brian Bensch: Uh, that was great for the industry, not just, you know, Vail Resorts staff. Um, and… but the prevailing wage for, you know, first-year ski instructor is certainly in that $20 an hour range today.00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:45.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, we try to do things differently.00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:49.000Stuart Winchester: Right, but okay, so, but fundamentally to get at the…00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:55.000Stuart Winchester: at this dynamic. I'm a ski instructor. Let's say I'm a great ski instructor, right? And everybody loves me.00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:57.000Stuart Winchester: And I… I can see that…00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:07.000Stuart Winchester: you know, Northstar is charging $1,000 for a lesson, and they're paying me $25 an hour. I don't know what Northstar pays, so feel free to correct me, Northstar, but…00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:10.000Stuart Winchester: Why don't I as an instructor?00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:25.000Stuart Winchester: just say, well, I'm just gonna go on Facebook and advertise my services, and say, meet me at the Lyft at Northstar, and I'll give you a lesson for $200 for the day, because then I'm making more, and… and we're just… and the consumer's getting a better deal.00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:34.000Stuart Winchester: And then we established this one-on-one relationship. Why doesn't that marketplace exist? Why do ski areas exist?00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:42.000Stuart Winchester: How are they able to do this weird market dynamic, which sounds fundamentally unfair to the instructor?00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:57.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. Well, that question is certainly more or less exactly what I pondered 10 years ago. And how I got into this fun little project called Snowschoolers.00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:03.000Brian Bensch: was the realization that, oh my god, like, why does this exist? Um, and, you know, and…00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:08.000Brian Bensch: 10 years ago, Uber and Airbnb had just become kind of a mainstream thing.00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:10.000Brian Bensch: Um, and so I was like, oh.00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:28.000Brian Bensch: I wonder if we could just connect instructors to students directly and have a little marketplace for ski school. At the time, I knew nothing about, you know, special use permits from the Forest Service and the ski industry broadly. You know, I'd grown up skiing, but I was just a lay consumer skier. The reality is, and very similar to.00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:36.000Brian Bensch: you know a lot of the work you've done this summer going into Forest Service kind of history. The special use permit system.00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:54.000Brian Bensch: effectively grants the resort, at least on Federal lands, where the special use permit exists, a micro monopoly over all business activity at their mountain. And it doesn't have to be that way. If you do go over to Europe, it is a much more laissez-faire free market.00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:07.000Brian Bensch: Um, and most major resorts in Europe have at least four to six, you know, uh, ski schools that operate and compete, and, you know, the average lesson prices are roughly a third, and instructors keep, you know, 50 to 60% of lessons.00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:19.000Brian Bensch: And so it doesn't have to be the way it is. But at at the core it is. It is because resorts have the legal right to be the only ski school of record. And.00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:30.000Stuart Winchester: Right, so just to get ahead of the people who like to point out details, so North Star was a weird example for me to use because it's on private land, it's not on Forest Service land. However, it's owned by Vail Resorts, and I think what you're saying is.00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:44.000Stuart Winchester: even though not every U.S. skier is on U.S. Forest Service land, 125 of them are, it… the fact that that encompasses the majority of our ski terrain has normalized the culture of one mountain, one ski school. Is that fair?00:24:44.000 --> 00:25:01.000Brian Bensch: Correct. And there is maybe a dirty little secret of capitalism that monopolies are great businesses. So Northstar does not want six other ski schools competing and driving the price down because ski school is very, very lucrative to the at least traditional big resort ski model.00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:09.000Stuart Winchester: So, disruptor Brian comes out and says, alright guys, get out of the way, I am gonna change the world with.00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:19.000Stuart Winchester: snow schoolers and my Uber for skiing app, which I know you don't want to call it anymore, but nonetheless, since you brought up the analogy, let's go back to 2014.00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:22.000Stuart Winchester: Take us into it. What did you do and what happened?00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:32.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. In short, I would say, did a little bit of experimenting with that idea. And, you know, by the end of the first season.00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:43.000Brian Bensch: Learned pretty quickly that the ski resort management does not like the idea. And if you want to be able to ski at places that you love to ski.00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:55.000Brian Bensch: it's probably a good idea to not, uh, not poke the bear too much, so to speak. Um, and so, uh, that first kind of pilot program very much led me into the, uh.00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:14.000Brian Bensch: and and this it was always a snooze. This has been a side project of mine for a while. It's a I would call it a thriving small business. That 1st year I I pretended it was a startup, or I called it a startup, but never took funding and you know that 1st pilot program helped me realize that the only way, if I was going to turn this into real business.00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:27.000Brian Bensch: was to find a way that was mutually beneficial for both resorts and instructors, uh, and obviously the students. Um, and that led me to, you know, how can I create a revenue share model.00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:41.000Brian Bensch: Uh, where by bringing more new skiers to the mountain, everyone benefits. Um, the resort gets to share the revenue, uh, the student gets a cheaper lesson, and the instructor gets higher pay. Um, and, uh…00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:54.000Brian Bensch: you know, by the time 2016 rolled around I was ready to quit my corporate job and give it a role, and so moved to Tahoe. And you know, without the.00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:04.000Brian Bensch: A gentleman named Brian Schilling out in Homewood. Without him taking sort of a chance on me, snow schoolers would not exist. But Homewood was coming off.00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:22.000Brian Bensch: we'll say a typical bad snow year, and had to let go a lot of their ski school staff the year prior, because I think they were open for, like, 40 days that season, and hiring was a huge priority. Like, they were rebuilding a ski school from scratch, and the reality was the pitch that resonated with Homewood.00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:37.000Brian Bensch: was much less about, can we, like, you know, offer more affordable lessons and increase gear visits that way, but we need, like, we don't know how to hire instructors, we need a bunch of instructors, and this Uber model of.00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:52.000Brian Bensch: uh, pseudo-freelance instructors was attractive to them. Um, and, you know, I told them that, like, I had put up a couple ads and had, you know, 20 people apply within a few weeks, and they're like, ah, that's interesting. Um, and so that led to our first season, uh, which I would say was.00:27:52.000 --> 00:28:06.000Brian Bensch: uh, not a hands-down success at Homewood, um, but I skied nearly 100 days, and it ended up being, uh, Tahoe's second best winter of at least my young adulthood, um, and, you know, you know, no regrets at all.00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:17.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I mean, Homo's a serious mountain. I mean, right on the lake, it's dramatic, it has pretty nice chair lifts. But that didn't end up being the future, right?00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:23.000Stuart Winchester: How did Homewood break down, and how did you…00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:25.000Stuart Winchester: reassemble…00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:35.000Stuart Winchester: like, sort of rethink the business, uh, on a different scale, and I mean both, like, going smaller to get bigger, if that makes sense.00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:44.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. So the core hypothesis of snow schoolers was always kind of twofold. If you make lessons.00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:52.000Brian Bensch: more interest or demand and potential customers when lessons are affordable.00:28:52.000 --> 00:29:09.000Brian Bensch: I think the same thing is true of lift tickets, and that's why, you know, the places that are still offering $700 lift tickets are thriving. But affordable lessons drives an outsized increase in, you know, lesson visits. And if you pay instructors well, there's no shortage of instructors you can find if you're willing to pay them well.00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:25.000Brian Bensch: What we didn't get right in that 1st year at Homewood was the affordable lesson side of things. We were able to teach lessons at Homewood, but we were offering the normal prices from the year before, which were more or less, I would say, 10% below what Squaw Valley Alpine Meadows up the road was charging.00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:41.000Brian Bensch: Um, and we were not… yeah, we taught a total of, I think, 50 lessons that season, um, which was, you know, better than zero, but certainly not enough to get me too, too excited. Um, and the kind of going smaller to get bigger.00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:45.000Brian Bensch: Uh, it was a function of, uh…00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:57.000Brian Bensch: my my tiny little hill in the woods called Grand Lebakken, that, as someone who'd grown up skiing Tahoe, I had literally never heard of. I think I'd probably skied in Tahoe 500 days at that point.00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:59.000Brian Bensch: Um, but, uh…00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:02.000Stuart Winchester: And it's right by Palisades, right? It's, like, right across the street, basically.00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:17.000Brian Bensch: Not quite across the street. It is two minutes from the lake, but you can't see the lake from Grand Labaquin. So it's literally like tucked in the way, tucked kind of behind a hill. It is between Alpine Meadows and Homewood, if you look at the map. And it's roughly like 10 minutes from both of them.00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:08.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:23.000Brian Bensch: Um, and as I was winding down that first season with Homewood, I challenged myself, um.00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:39.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, tried to put it on social media, but no one really cared to do a March Madness Sweet 16 circuit, because there, at the time, were 16 unique mountains in Tahoe, and Grand Lebakken was one of the last stops on that circuit, and I forget who told me it existed.00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:44.000Brian Bensch: Um, but, you know, Grand Lubakken is not a ski resort. Grand Lubakken is a ski.00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:51.000Brian Bensch: Kind of known for its lodging and accommodations business.00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:54.000Stuart Winchester: Hey, Brian, you, uh, you just froze again, but you said Grand Lebakken is a ski…00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:55.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:57.000Stuart Winchester: So just start over from Grand Lebakken is a ski.00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:13.000Brian Bensch: Sure. Grand Labaca is not a ski resort. It is a ski hill or a ski area, as Stuart likes to say. It is two surface lifts. It is roughly 20 acres from the bottom of the hill of Grand Labaca. You can see the entire hill, the entire mountain. What you see is what you get.00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:30.000Brian Bensch: It is not, I would say, exclusively for beginners. The Poma that goes to the top, and it's, I think, roughly 225 feet. I would put it at a solid, you know, a Jackson Hole blue. It is at least a 25 to 30 degree slope.00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:46.000Brian Bensch: and I have seen 12 year olds straight line it and almost die. So it is. It is certainly like there's enough terrain that you could do ski race like training on it, and we do a little bit of that in the winter on weekdays. But it is a ski hill.00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:57.000Brian Bensch: Um, not at all, sort of, no bells and whistles, no high-speed quads, um, just a bunny lift, uh, rope toe, and a, you know, slightly more advanced poma that goes to the top.00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:09.000Brian Bensch: And, uh, spent a good afternoon with, uh, the Parson family back in spring 2017, and I was like, this price is pretty cool, this is cute, and told them about my ideas for ski school.00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:09.000Stuart Winchester: And who are they?00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:25.000Brian Bensch: Chris Parson and Ron Parson. Ron is Chris's father, and has owned the mountain for quite a while, and what Grand Lombachman is known for is, it is more of an accommodations center. It's a lodge and conference center.00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:42.000Brian Bensch: Uh, with roughly, I think, 150-ish units. Um, and the ski hill is an amenity, uh, along with their pool, along with their spa, along with, like, you know, their, you know, uh, dining areas and so forth. Um, and they've operated the ski area and sled hill, um, for…00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:55.000Brian Bensch: I think Ron is — the Parson family is going on maybe 30 years. I hope to convince him that he should come on the pod at some point. But he is —.00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:55.000 --> 00:33:12.000Brian Bensch: Their family, you know, is the quintessential mom and pop ski hill ski area sort of operators. When I met them, ski school was run mostly with Chris, who had sort of two group lesson slots a day and a piece of paper for people to sign up in the morning.00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:28.000Brian Bensch: And they were like, you know, we could probably be more organized with this. And I was like, yeah, I think I can help you a little bit. And then the season ended and I went home, had made no money. So, you know, my day job has been in marketing.00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:40.000Brian Bensch: for big and small tech companies for a while. Um, and so I went and had to get a big boy tech job again to, you know, pay for rent. Um, and my Tahoe ski lease was up for the season. So, I went back home.00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:39.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:47.000Brian Bensch: you know, wasn't sure if Snow Solutions was going to continue, kind of just assumed it was a one-year thing, and, you know.00:33:47.000 --> 00:34:03.000Brian Bensch: you know, hadn't talked a ton with Homewood, but I knew, like we weren't gonna you know the business wasn't great. But fast forward October 1st roughly, this time of year the Gm. Gives me a call out of the blue, and I pick up. I'm now at my new day job, and I just play it cool. And I'm like, Oh, yeah.00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:19.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, no, we'll run your ski school this winter. Grant Lebakken did, yeah. So the GM of Grant Lebakken picked up and said, hey, you know, we love meeting you in the spring, and you know, winter's around the corner. Let's talk about, you know, what needs to be done for you guys to run ski school for us this year.00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.000Stuart Winchester: Grand Labaquin?00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:10.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay.00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Right.00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:23.000Brian Bensch: Um, and I remember going home that night being like, huh.00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:33.000Brian Bensch: This is not going to be easy because I'm working 40 to 50 hours a week now at my new job. But skiing in this space is what I love to do.00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:51.000Brian Bensch: You know, at one point, a quote on the website was the Confucius quote, “If you find a job you love, you'll never work another day.” And, you know, I said, yes, you know, porque no las dos, let's do both. Didn't tell my employer at the time.00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:51.000 --> 00:35:06.000Brian Bensch: Because, you know, don't want to give them reason to question how much time you're putting in. But basically worked, you know, spent many nights, and I was a bad developer at the time. So everything snow schoolers is kind of built in-house from a code perspective.00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:55.000Stuart Winchester: Been there?00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:23.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, I just, every evening from 6 p.m. to midnight, I'd be plugging away to build the Grand Le Bacon kind of new system that we built that first year. And it worked. You know, year two, we taught.00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:38.000Brian Bensch: I think 300 plus lessons, and we did five times more revenue than year one at Homewood. And again, I was, you know, I only taught probably 2% of lessons because I had my full-time job. Christmas was a fun disaster where.00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:47.000Brian Bensch: all of a sudden, we were sold out every single day, and I was like, uh, I guess I need to figure out how to stop selling lessons, uh, because I hadn't really built that into the model the first year, because we were never sold out.00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:48.000Stuart Winchester: Ah, okay, okay.00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:56.000Brian Bensch: But, you know, we made it work and lots of families had amazing, you know, first experiences learning to slide on snow.00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:06.000Stuart Winchester: So let me zoom out and just tell you why I think this makes sense from my point of view, and then you can color that in with with how Graham Lebakken actually achieved it. I look at…00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:13.000Stuart Winchester: something like the Icon Pass, and they have a partnership with Jackson Hole.00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:22.000Stuart Winchester: but Altera doesn't have to own or operate Jackson Hole, and if a lift breaks, it's not Altera's problem, but they get the benefit of Jackson Hole.00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:25.000Stuart Winchester: on their IconPass. Uh…00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:36.000Stuart Winchester: this model that Grand Lebakken has, there used to be hundreds of ski areas like this, just attached to resorts all across. In this part of the country, there were a ton of them, in the Catskills and the Poconos, and…00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:38.000Brian Bensch: Okay.00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:42.000Stuart Winchester: most of them, I mean, they frankly weren't super interesting hills, but they…00:36:42.000 --> 00:37:02.000Stuart Winchester: Those resorts found that as God running a ski hill became more complex, it wasn't worth keeping all those pieces and parts as an amenity. So in the case of, of Grand Le Bacon, I, I imagine, you know, you have a couple Pomas, so your market is probably like people who wanted to come to Tahoe in the winter, but aren't necessarily skiers, but maybe want to try it.00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:18.000Stuart Winchester: Right? Because no one's like, hmm, should I go to Palisades or Grand Lebakken today, right? Like it's, it's a very unique place. So, but Grand Lebakken, I mean, if they're going to have a hill, that means they also have to have, you know, a rental shop and they have to have a ski school and instructors. This basically.00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:08.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:21.000Stuart Winchester: Takes the whole ski school, all that labor.00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:23.000Stuart Winchester: all the infrastructure.00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:25.000Stuart Winchester: out of it, and I'd imagine you just…00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:41.000Stuart Winchester: Pay, you know, you just write them a check like a lease, basically like a forest service lease where a skier operates and they, they pay based on what they make to the government. So it, it seems to me like ski areas would love that. And I, and I could think of 100 small ski areas in the country where that would work. That's how I'm understanding this is that.00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:44.000Stuart Winchester: Is that fair? And…00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:47.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, I I would say you more or less hit the nail on the head.00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:47.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:37:48.000 --> 00:38:03.000Brian Bensch: The and and the models the operating model that we've sort of developed, that we are sort of most in favor of is, we do ski school. We take full responsibility for ski school and nothing else.00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:14.000Brian Bensch: we've we've we're not obligated, or we don't have to stick with that model entirely. And at our Frisco location, Colorado. We also do all of rentals.00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:20.000Brian Bensch: And but ski school is what sort of what we love, what we care about.00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:34.000Brian Bensch: And you know, in in other past smaller partnerships we've done. We were responsible for even more of operations, grooming and parking and snow removal is.00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:40.000Brian Bensch: like very underappreciated. How time consuming, expensive those can be.00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:50.000Brian Bensch: And so I I am very thankful that Gran Lebakken and our partners at Frisco take responsibility for for grooming, and particularly grooming snowmaking.00:38:50.000 --> 00:39:00.000Brian Bensch: um, and sort of the general operations, uh, lift operations and so forth, are… are never gonna be our sweet spot. Um, and we would happily run the, like.00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:06.000Brian Bensch: like ski school is often the biggest human part of the organization, because you have a bunch of instructors.00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:22.000Brian Bensch: Uh, and you have to, like, you know, herding cats doesn't happen without effort. Um, and scheduling does not happen, uh, without good software, and a human to supervise the software. Um, and so, yeah, that's been our sweet spot. Um, I likewise, uh, think that there are at least.00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:35.000Brian Bensch: a few dozen, if not hundreds, of other small ski areas, whether they're surface lift only, or just small with, like, a single fixed grip lift, that, um, that want to do a better ski school program, and we would love to talk to them.00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:53.000Stuart Winchester: So, so Grand Labakin you've been with ever since, so I'm assuming they've been pretty happy with it. Let's jump across the country to another really weird ski area that probably people don't know exists, that we've been talking about, which is Frisco, which is… you pass by it on the way to Breckenridge, but you won't even see it. It's so small, like.00:39:53.000 --> 00:40:09.000Stuart Winchester: You have to drive around this weird road and it's, you know, underneath a hill. And I've not skied there, but I stopped by after they were closed, uh, a couple years ago. So, so that is not attached to a resort. That's, I think, a city park. So you have a completely different demo there.00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:19.000Stuart Winchester: So who is Frisco trying to serve, and how did you meet that need? And it seems like you've had a long-term relationship with them as well.00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:29.000Brian Bensch: Yes. So we're now going to our fifth season with the town of Frisco. And so, yes, it is a municipally managed ski area and tubing park.00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:42.000Brian Bensch: You can't miss the tubing element when you're driving from getting off I-70 and heading to Breckenridge, but very few people will know that there's beginner ski and snowboarding there as well. I've been to Colorado a good handful of times.00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:48.000Brian Bensch: definitely drove by it once and didn't know they were skiing there. And you know a mutual acquaintance.00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:45.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:40:48.000 --> 00:41:01.000Brian Bensch: post-COVID, when I was talking about, you know what, you know, the world's going remote, maybe I can just, you know, expand snow schoolers without me physically being there all the time. Um, and I was like, huh, have you heard of Frisco? I was like, no, what.00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:58.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:07.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, that was probably two months before our first successful season with Frisco.00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:22.000Brian Bensch: Um, the audience they're serving, to your question, is not nearly as local as you might expect for being, like, a town-run hill. Uh, we certainly have some local programs, but their audience is Summit County visitors.00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:15.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm.00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:35.000Brian Bensch: Who primarily are either not skiers yet, not skiers and swimmers yet, or are brand new and want to get their sort of their ski legs on because someone invited them on a trip to Breck or trip to Copper.00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:52.000Brian Bensch: and they're like, well, I've never skied before. You know a lifting. It's expensive, less expensive. B like, can I get my legs like, you know, get my footing somewhere, and we are smack dab in the middle of, you know, 4 major resorts. In addition to Copper Breck, you've got a base and and.00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:59.000Brian Bensch: and Keystone around the corner, and we are the affordable alternative for Summit County visitors.00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:03.000Stuart Winchester: It's expensive for a rope tail, by the way, it's like $40 for a lift ticket.00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:01.000Brian Bensch: Um, and the town…00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:07.000Brian Bensch: Sure. Expenses is very relative. That is fair.00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:07.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, okay, so, so…00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:21.000Stuart Winchester: you established… that's funny, that's not at all what I expected. I thought it would be, like, bust loads of kids, but I guess they probably have deals with Breckenridge or something. So you've had success.00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:35.000Stuart Winchester: at Frisco and at Grand Labaca, and you've had a couple others that you've been in and out of other than Homewood. Tell us about those, and what did work, and ultimately what didn't work about them.00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:46.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. Let's go with — let's stick with the Colorado trend first, and then we'll come back to Tahoe. There's an awesome little mountain.00:42:46.000 --> 00:43:01.000Brian Bensch: that, I think you know, and and didn't. As you think about your the last ski resorts to open or ski areas to open. I actually think Hoedown Hill is the most recently opened new ski area in the country. It's about an hour north of Denver.00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:06.000Brian Bensch: in Windsor, Colorado, and we worked with them for their 1st 2 seasons.00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:15.000Brian Bensch: Um, and we did not work with them last year. Um, still in touch with them, um, but they are a brand new ski area that is, I would say, a…00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:18.000Brian Bensch: a privately…00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:26.000Brian Bensch: run like you. You could say there's similarities to the Grand Lebakken business model, but on a whole other level of, I would say.00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:40.000Brian Bensch: affluence and like target demo. The Hoedown Hill facility is attached to the Raindance National Golf Course, which I'm not a golfer, but I hear it's a tier one destination golf course.00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:49.000Brian Bensch: They want to build, you know, 4 seasons esque hotel there, and it is a we'll say a bourgeois experience that they're going for with some, you know.00:43:49.000 --> 00:44:06.000Brian Bensch: you know, a good culture vibe there. And I think so long as the management team remains committed, it will continue to grow. They are at the IndyPass, so shout out there, like, it's worth a quick visit if you're flying into Denver with your IndyPass.00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:01.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:07.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:10.000Brian Bensch: Um, and in our first two seasons there, um.00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:12.000Brian Bensch: We did, we did.00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:19.000Brian Bensch: we did okay. But we weren't able to draw the numbers that we saw in Summit County, or anywhere close to them.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:20.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:22.000Brian Bensch: And my conclusion.00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:26.000Brian Bensch: or one of my conclusions is that.00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:39.000Brian Bensch: It is much, much harder to influence the macro kind of tide of skier movements than it is to siphon off.00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:55.000Brian Bensch: not to capture demand in an underserved market in Northern Colorado. You know, it's great that they have Hodown Hill, but there weren't a thousand people looking for affordable lessons in Northern Colorado before Hodown Hill existed.00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:45.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:55.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:11.000Brian Bensch: Uh, whereas there's, you know, thousands of Summit County visitors who want more affordable lessons and just don't take lessons today. Um, and so, like, it was… and same thing in Tahoe. Uh, it was much easier, like, we open up for business and, like, we don't have to do much marketing for.00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:04.000Stuart Winchester: You know.00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:25.000Brian Bensch: for the wave of customers to come in, whereas every customer we earned in, uh, in Windsor and Fort Collins area, sort of, we had to hustle to get. There weren't people, like, already looking for affordable skiing there, because it's… it's a suburb of Denver.00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that's true.00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:28.000Stuart Winchester: That's so interesting because I.00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:39.000Stuart Winchester: wrote up, and I talked to the folks at Hood on Hill, and they were opening it. And the way I thought… the way they pitched it to me was more of making skiing accessible for locals at an entry level.00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:49.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, they didn't… I mean, I understood that it was attached to this other resort, but my understanding is it was kind of a low-cost thing for the community. I think one mistake they made, and…00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:53.000Stuart Winchester: Maybe you don't want to criticize them, but I think having four carpets.00:45:53.000 --> 00:46:02.000Stuart Winchester: I think they should have had at least one rope tower or T-bar, like, something to serve the terrain park that wasn't so slow. I think that would have gotten them more…00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:04.000Stuart Winchester: Energy on site.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:18.000Stuart Winchester: And… and had a multiplier effect. I just didn't… I didn't like the four carpets model. I liked the model of putting a ski area there, because otherwise the closest place is, what, like Eldora, and a lift ticket's 180 bucks?00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:30.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, so… so there wasn't… or you go up to Echo, I guess, but that's a pain to get to. So… so I… I don't know, that… that was my… that's my impression of Hoedown so far, is it was, like, a good idea with bad execution.00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:24.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:35.000Brian Bensch: I I think that there's some fairness to that.00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:48.000Brian Bensch: They did a great job with the terrain park, given the resources available. And yes, like, a rope tower right next to the park is always, like, I think, a good idea. And it's something that the town of Frisco invested in, I think.00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:46:48.000 --> 00:47:05.000Brian Bensch: 3 years ago, maybe 2 years ago, and it has been wildly popular. And you know, rope toes, you know you don't need to convince me. But I'm I'm with you on the rope toes are the most affordable, accessible way for a ski area to like increase uphill uphill capacity.00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:17.000Brian Bensch: Um, I think the biggest challenge for Hoedown was… and you'd call this bad luck, um, I would say bad luck more than bad execution, but it is at, you know, 6,000 feet, and uh…00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:24.000Brian Bensch: Natural snowfall in an hour north of Denver is not the most plentiful.00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:28.000Brian Bensch: And they invested heavily in snowmaking, but you can't fight temps.00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:40.000Brian Bensch: And so, in both of our first two seasons at Hoedown, we opened between January 2nd and January 7th, but we missed Christmas both of those years, and it's really hard to, sort of.00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:57.000Brian Bensch: generate momentum for a ski area when you miss Christmas. Um, and, you know, Mother Nature is the biggest determiner of that. Uh, I'm not positive, but I don't think they got open for Christmas last year, and last year was obviously the worst of the three past seasons. So, um, hoping Mother Nature cooperates better for them this year.00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:00.000Stuart Winchester: All right, Brian, so you can keep hunting rope toes.00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:16.000Stuart Winchester: You know, I was having this debate with someone yesterday. A lot of the stats you hear when you point back in time, oh, there was 1,200 ski areas and now there's only 500. It's like, well, a lot of them were little rope toes. Like, most of the lost ski areas in Colorado were just little rope toes that existed. The reason they went away…00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:22.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, is, is not because there, there was some catastrophe in, uh.00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:34.000Stuart Winchester: anywhere other than the fact that there just was better ski areas built, and they're kind of boring. Like, when you just… you get over that pretty quick. Like, 100 vertical foot, wide open run, with a rope tow, unless it has some park features.00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:47.000Stuart Winchester: you're gonna get over it. And almost all of them, they still exist. And I've been to a lot of them across America, and they're mostly in New England and Midwest, and kind of sprinkled throughout the West, especially in the Pacific Northwest. They're almost all…00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:56.000Stuart Winchester: None of them are actual businesses, almost. Like, they're almost all subsidized, they're a city park, they're owned by a school, they're attached to a resort.00:48:56.000 --> 00:49:01.000Stuart Winchester: My point is, this is not a growth area long term.00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:02.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:17.000Stuart Winchester: you know, the big ski areas mostly do have really good beginner centers, and they're getting better all the time, right? You see places like Jackson and Big Sky building mid-mountain beginner centers to put people more up in the alpine experience and away from.00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:22.000Stuart Winchester: the chaos of the base. So what I'm getting at here is.00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:24.000Stuart Winchester: Eventually…00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:28.000Stuart Winchester: It seems like you have to get…00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:41.000Stuart Winchester: into a ski area where there's somewhere else to go after the beginner hill's done, right? Or else you're just gonna be teaching pizza French fry forever, and… and I don't think that even the most passionate ski instructor wants to do that, so…00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:49.000Stuart Winchester: And it's funny, because you started at Homewood, and it's like, how do you get back to Homewood is almost the question I'm asking.00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:51.000Stuart Winchester: But I…00:49:51.000 --> 00:50:02.000Stuart Winchester: How do you… First of all, do you agree with that or am I totally missing the point? And second, if you do want to eventually get into bigger operations, what…00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:07.000Stuart Winchester: What are the obstacles to doing so other than the obvious permitting issue we just talked about?00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:20.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, so I would say I 80% agree with you. The 20% carve out would be that Grand Lavaca is still a business and Ron runs it like a business.00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:27.000Brian Bensch: And the town of Frisco, even if it's town-operated, is a business that, like, reports its P&L, and they're both, like, pretty thriving.00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:33.000Brian Bensch: medium sized businesses. Snow schoolers is a small business. They're they're certainly, you know, 5 to 10 x bigger.00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:42.000Brian Bensch: And and I think that just like, you know, grade school education is a business.00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:46.000Brian Bensch: There is a steady stream of families.00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:46.000 --> 00:51:01.000Brian Bensch: You know, kids that, you know, will hopefully have the opportunity to learn to ski. And, you know, I think there's a world for, you know, bump hills, so to speak, to remain thriving in existence without having, you know.00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:13.000Brian Bensch: the Jackson Hole Palisades terrain to keep people forever. As far as you know, snow schoolers and kind of the the lesson ecosystem.00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:07.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:22.000Brian Bensch: I would say vehemently believe there is an underserved market for intermediate and advanced lessons.00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:22.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:37.000Brian Bensch: at, you know, quote-unquote, real resorts. Um, I'd somewhat be lying if I said I had the answer, uh, to how to break into that, because I probably would have done so already, uh, even if this is my part-time endeavor. Um, but the… in a similar manner to.00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:29.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:44.000Brian Bensch: Uh, you know, how to… you know, we've… we struggled to create demand at Hoedown Hill. Hoedown Hill? Um…00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:59.000Brian Bensch: It is a completely new endeavor to create demand for that, you know, lifelong skier who skis, you know, 5 to 15 days a year, or maybe even like 10 to 50 days a year, and doesn't think that they need a lesson.00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:01.000Brian Bensch: Um, that is a much sort of.00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:14.000Brian Bensch: harder marketing challenge. But I can guarantee you, unless they are in the top 1% of like wealth. They're not going to pay $1,000. And so that's the like. How do you? How do you like? Come up with the right product?00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:15.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:26.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, when I talk to people on chairlifts, you know, fun skiing, I'll often ask, like, you know, hey, when's the last time you took a lesson now? Yeah, when I was a kid. What would you be willing to pay?00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:42.000Brian Bensch: Uh, you know, to get 20% better at your skiing riding today. It's like, yeah, maybe 50 bucks, maybe 40 bucks, 60 bucks, like, you know. Uh, and there's no mountain that offers that, particularly for, like, the one or two hour segment. Um, and, you know.00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:49.000Brian Bensch: I think there's a lot of experimentation that the bigger mountains could do with ski school to serve that sort of.00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:52.000Brian Bensch: Latent market, or latent demand, uh…00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:55.000Brian Bensch: I'd love to help, but I'd be lying if I think that.00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:58.000Brian Bensch: Ask a 3rd party to do it for them.00:52:57.000 --> 00:52:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:13.000Brian Bensch: And but you know, in the the only thing I think that I am a believer of Einstein's definition of insanity, and and if you do the same thing over over and over again, and expect different results like that's insane.00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:28.000Brian Bensch: Um, and I'd love to see more experimentation with, like, you know, better serving sort of lessons for people that already know how to ski. Um, because that's what… that's what got me addicted. Uh, becoming an instructor made me realize how much more.00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:23.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I'm.00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:37.000Brian Bensch: fun I could have and how much more like I still I want to learn to be a better skier this year uh and like everyone that sort of.00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.00:53:37.000 --> 00:53:47.000Brian Bensch: really gets sort of addicted to ski instruction. They do it because, like there, it's a lifelong pursuit of learning to like, get better. And most.00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:50.000Brian Bensch: lace gears like don't have that sort of.00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:54.000Brian Bensch: have that spark that I'd love to spread.00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:53:53.000 --> 00:54:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I guess the cynic in me thinks you're never gonna get the robots to ski. Like, there's too much ego in American skiing, especially among the sort of core demographic of males. But what I… I think what I meant more was, like, okay.00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:24.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Grand Le Bacon's kind of a novelty, and I get that it's a business, uh, that's attached to it. I, how about like Tahoe Donner, right? So it's, it's, it's not a big resort. It's, you know, right next to Sugar Bowl. It's got 500 vertical feet, like five double.00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:31.000Stuart Winchester: Maybe they don't need the hassle of running a ski school, and the…00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:41.000Stuart Winchester: they have locals, right? Because that's a mountain with interesting terrain, even though it's short vert, where parents would want to go and, like, put their kids in ski school while they go off and ski, even if you don't.00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:57.000Stuart Winchester: get the parents. Is there… do you see opportunity in that? Because there's… there's lots of hills like that, which are not, you know, down the Frisco level, but, you know, if you want to go Summit County, so you have Frisco, and you have, like, Keystone Basin.00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:07.000Stuart Winchester: uh, Breck, but then you also have Granby Ranch, and you have Ski Cooper, and it's like, okay, may… or you have Echo Mountain, maybe those places are sort of the logical next.00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:18.000Stuart Winchester: I don't even know if it's possible to get the really big ones, but, you know, do you see any growth in that? Just tiering up, not to destinations necessarily, but sort of like.00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:21.000Stuart Winchester: ski areas that families actually want to ski a whole season at.00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:23.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, um…00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:28.000Brian Bensch: A few things to come back to your earlier question. Not all of ski school is broken.00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:30.000Brian Bensch: I visited Granby Ranch.00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:37.000Brian Bensch: last spring, I believe? Maybe it was 2 springs ago. Um, and I've been to Tahoe Donner many a times. Both of those, uh…00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:36.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:37.000 --> 00:55:42.000Brian Bensch: mountains have pretty phenomenal ski schools. Like, they don't need our help.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:50.000Brian Bensch: You know, maybe, you know, maybe there's some cool software things that we're doing that they could, you know, borrow and replicate, but they are thriving.00:55:50.000 --> 00:56:00.000Brian Bensch: learning area programs. And I think there's a like for for the listeners that have, you know, you know.00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:03.000Brian Bensch: young kids that are thinking about when to start in ski school.00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:22.000Brian Bensch: That, I would say, tier of mountain is today, like, if it's not on your radar, it should be, because the affordability, like, they're not gouging people nearly as much as the Tier 1 Icon Epic Resorts are, and every time I've visited them, on a weekend at least.00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:30.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, their fault. They're thriving. And so I don't think that at least the class of the Tahoe Donners and Granbys of the world. I don't think they're broken.00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:38.000Brian Bensch: Other than, you know, yeah, more staff, like, how do you keep scaling? But they are thriving pretty well from what I've seen.00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I'm.00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:50.000Stuart Winchester: I could still see some operator… you know, I was talking to the guy who revitalized Steeplechase, and he was saying, you know, we don't have a ski school, and I think I may have even connected you guys, but it's like, you sort of have a ski school in a box you could offer them.00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:51.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:57.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, one more ski school question, and then you can make fun of my charts. Um, so… so, Summit at Snoqualmie.00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:11.000Stuart Winchester: and I'm sure you know this, for some reason, because of, like, it's grandfathered in, because it used to be, like, 92 different ski areas, and now it's… it's one. They have competing ski schools there. It's one of the few… might be the only place in America.00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:16.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, that I'm aware of, at least the only major, you know, it's owned by Boeing. And I've asked Boe.00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:25.000Stuart Winchester: I don't know, we don't really want to have that war. You know, it works. But but what do you think of Summit at Snoqualmie?00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:27.000Stuart Winchester: And is it just?00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:40.000Stuart Winchester: a fringe case, and it doesn't tell us anything useful about how we could maybe change American ski school structure. Any thoughts on that? That's right outside of Seattle, by the way, for folks who don't know.00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:40.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, yeah, uh…00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:43.000Brian Bensch: Now, fun, fun fact.00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:45.000Brian Bensch: You know, in my 1st year of.00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:52.000Brian Bensch: researching this space and figuring out what I was gonna do. Uh, the Pacific Northwest, and Snoqualmie in particular, was sort of.00:57:52.000 --> 00:58:08.000Brian Bensch: Number one, I'm like, I need to get up there and figure out, like, what they're doing, why, how they made it work, and how do we do that in Tahoe? That was my, like, year one thesis. I finally got up there just before the world shut down with COVID.00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:11.000Brian Bensch: Knocked on doors, had some good conversations.00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:23.000Brian Bensch: And and you're correct like there are at least 6 or 7, maybe even more independent ski schools. They all have their own little lodge building. They're all primarily seasonal programs.00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:33.000Brian Bensch: And they do. They still do a good deal of the sort of transportation coordination. You know that whole market is, you know, Seattle and Seattle suburbs, you know, coming up.00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:36.000Stuart Winchester: Right off the interstate. Yeah.00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:45.000Brian Bensch: to the mountains right off the interstate. It's it's as sort of like convenient as you could imagine. And more or less the answer I got was, we've done it this way.00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:48.000Brian Bensch: Uh, but we're not looking to make it more this way.00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:51.000Brian Bensch: And you know they.00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:52.000Stuart Winchester: That was the answer from Boyne or from the ski schools?00:58:52.000 --> 00:59:08.000Brian Bensch: Uh, it was… I would say both. There was a, uh, like, the first party unoperated, like, Snoqualmie Ski School manager, like, told me that. And there was a person who coordinated, basically, was the Boyne representative for the seven other independents.00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:11.000Brian Bensch: And it was like, yeah, we're not, you know, we're not inviting new people.00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and in case anyone from the ski schools at Summit is listening to this, don't run to Guy Lawrence or Steven Kirchner and be like.00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:13.000Brian Bensch: Um, okay.00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:33.000Stuart Winchester: Stu Winchester said that you said this. I'm paraphrasing, and that's my take, is that they don't want that war. What they said was probably something like, our ski schools do a great job, and we're so happy to work with them. So don't run that back to them. This is just my take on it.00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:23.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:31.000Brian Bensch: Yep.00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:37.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, that they don't want to fight you, and I think they're smart not to.00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:43.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. The thing I would probably acknowledge is when a…00:59:43.000 --> 00:59:47.000Brian Bensch: Sierra is running a…00:59:49.000 --> 00:59:54.000Brian Bensch: a well executed, operationally efficient ski school.00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:59:54.000 --> 01:00:00.000Brian Bensch: They don't necessarily need third parties to come in and, like, try to do it better.01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:02.000Brian Bensch: Okay.01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:06.000Brian Bensch: However, there is a short term sort of.01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:09.000Brian Bensch: financially motivated incentive.01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:15.000Brian Bensch: to run a, I would say, less at scale, more profitable ski area over time.01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:19.000Brian Bensch: And you know that is sort of.01:00:19.000 --> 01:00:22.000Brian Bensch: what I would attribute to, like, you know, the…01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:37.000Brian Bensch: the non-snow summit at Snoqualmie Mountains that have one ski school and their list prices are $279 for group lesson or $1,299 for private lesson.01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:50.000Brian Bensch: they've decided that it's better for their business to, you know, maximize, like, short-term financials over long-term bringing skiers in the market. Um, and the history of Snoqualmie was, you know.01:00:50.000 --> 01:01:05.000Brian Bensch: Because it was like this, and because the ski schools were busing kids, you know, from school to the mountain afternoon, and, like, handling the very messy logistics and operations, that, like, they saw that as valuable and let them keep doing that.01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:12.000Brian Bensch: But from a business perspective, it's just more profitable, at least in the short term, to teach fewer lessons at higher margin.01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:17.000Stuart Winchester: So to end on this thought on ski lessons.01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:27.000Stuart Winchester: I think they're…

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is flabbergasted by EuroSki. Donate to my brain transplant fund to make me more smarter:WhoIain Martin, founder and host of UK-based The Ski Podcast. YouTube here. This is Iain's second appearance on The Storm:Interview dateSeptember 24, 2026Why I interviewed himIf, like me, you're a U.S. American SnoSportSkier, you may find European skiing more than a little baffling. More than 4,000 ski areas spread over dozens of countries with their dozens of languages. Trams and gondolas pop skyward from every other corner in Switzerland or the Pyrenees or Slovenia, as numerous as the strip-mall vape shops and Jesus-Knows-You're-Watching-Porn billboards defecating all over America's roads. The trail markings in Europe are all different colors. Why is no one skiing off the groomers? Who stole all the trees? Why is every ski lift either a tram that looks CGI'd to transport Storm Troopers to a fictional Star Wars Cloud City or a T-bar that looks as though it was hammered together by Yohan in between sheep shearings? Why is the food good and the alcohol cheap? Why do lift tickets not cost more than a semester's tuition at Cornell? And, most baffling of all as we contemplate the growing presence of EuroSki on U.S.-based multimountain passes, why is every ski resort actually 10 or 15 or 100 different ski areas stapled together as the Valley of Grand Domaine de Les Skis?I wish I could be more helpful in answering these questions. So far, I have not been very helpful. I felt like I could get away with just pointing and laughing as Vail and Alterra added a handful of big-time European ski resorts to their rosters, but the numbers have rapidly spiraled: check out the number of Euro ski areas that have joined Epic, Ikon, and Indy since 2018:At first I tried to keep up, but I just sort of surrendered after 2025. I did manage write-ups of Epic Pass additions in Austria, and new Ikon partners in Italy and France, but I never got past more than cursory acknowledgements of Indy's massive haul of Euro partners from Turkey up through the Alps core to Scotland. And I thought, “OK how many gigantic resorts can they have over there it's gotta stop soon right?” But they just kept coming like kaijū in Pacific Rim. The pass-by-pass totals headed into winter 2026-27 are shocking:Here's a country-by-country breakdown that's a bit easier to read:And here's the detailed roster - not all the lifts are filled in because shoot me:This chart is the European equivalent of American college football rankings. It makes no sense, but it must be fun because so many people do it, right?I tried to make a map but it sorta sucks so I'm going to keep trying. I did use the map as a visual aide in the podcast, which is also and always available in audio-only. But if you want to watch above or on YouTube, our conversation will make marginally more sense as I scroll around beneath Iain's narrative.TranscriptsThere are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don't know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment. Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.ZoomStuart Winchester: My guest today is the founder and host of The Ski Podcast, a UK-based show that just published its 327th episode.00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:56.000Stuart Winchester: He's also a freelance journalist writing for national and specialized press and the owner of a digital marketing consultancy for snow sports. Ian Martin is my guest. He is a good friend of the storm. He has been on the show before and he is here today to help us make sense of Europe. Ian, how you doing today?00:07:57.000 --> 00:08:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I am really well, Stuart. It's really nice to see you, and thank you for inviting me onto the show.00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:07.000Stuart Winchester: Before we get started, what do you got lined up for this winter? When do you start skiing?00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:23.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: My personal first trip will be out to Les Des Alpes ski resort in France, which I'll be doing in early December. But I will actually be skiing not next weekend, but the one after in one of our indoor snow slopes.00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:24.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: in the UK. I'll be skiing in the snowy center, Manchester, so I'll get to get my skis on.00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:28.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool.00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:40.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, that'll be a lot of fun. Yeah, we have the one right over in New Jersey. I was supposed to go a couple of… a couple weeks ago, but I… something came up, and I wasn't able to make it. Alright, so Ian, let me set this up for the listeners.00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:42.000Stuart Winchester: And, and…00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:54.000Stuart Winchester: as a baseline for what we're dealing with here. So, US-based passes, meaning Epic, Icon, and Indy. There's also one on Mountain Collective, but it overlaps with… there's two on Mountain Collective that overlap with Icon, so I'.00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:59.000Stuart Winchester: So they have added a total of 61 destinations.00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:00.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Mm-hmm.00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:02.000Stuart Winchester: in 14 European countries.00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:04.000Stuart Winchester: 13 of those are on Epic.00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:06.000Stuart Winchester: Nine are on icon.00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:18.000Stuart Winchester: 39 are on Indy. Uh, so… some of those are unlimited on Epic, some you get 5 days, some you get 7. Icon's a pretty standard 7 days, or 5 days, even with the base pass. Indy is 2 days at each.00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:22.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, 20 of those destinations are in Austria.00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:31.000Stuart Winchester: 12 are in Switzerland. Uh, 8 are in France, and they're all over the place, but those are the countries with the most. So let me… I wanna actually…00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:33.000Stuart Winchester: Share on my screen.00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:38.000Stuart Winchester: a map that I made that could help us as a little guide, although it's not a…00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:42.000Stuart Winchester: It's not a great map, but I will…00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:46.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay. Can you, can you see the map?00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:51.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I… can see the map, yes.00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:52.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah, I couldn't figure out how to make the…00:09:52.000 --> 00:10:04.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, let me just explain this at a high level. So, I couldn't figure out how to make the text smaller, it's very much a work in progress, but, uh, blue is, uh, the names of the ski areas are by country.00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:19.000Stuart Winchester: And the names of the icons are bypassed. So when you zoom down to Austria, it's Epic, Epic, Indy. Uh, Indy's red, Icon's yellow, uh, Epic is blue. This is one where it really helps to watch the video. If not, we'll explain it, and you don't have to.00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:34.000Stuart Winchester: be watching to understand everything. So, uh, looking at this, Ian, and putting aside my, uh, crappy map design skills, and looking at the full of Europe, from above, from space, as we can do in the future here, uh, where do you even start?00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:53.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Well, firstly, I've got to congratulate you on your data. It's just amazing. When you read out all of the different resorts, and the number of countries, and the number of resorts in each country, I've got one of your spreadsheets printed out here, and it's already changed since then. So, staying up to date the whole time is really quite incredible.00:10:53.000 --> 00:11:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: how you manage… how you manage to do that. Um, it is, uh, amazing. In… in respect of the map, there's obviously a lot of ski areas on there, and probably this is going to be better for someone as a research tool.00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:55.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:15.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Now, you mentioned that there are 61 countries in total, 61 ski areas in total that are covered on those different passes.00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:18.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And I was thinking about…00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:34.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: what is the best way to kind of go into getting a sense for maybe which ones you should visit? Obviously, it's going to be different for everybody, depending on what kind of pass they have, and I know some people have more than one pass, but I thought that maybe a useful way to do it might be to think of.00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:37.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Let's say the hero trip.00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:41.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Then maybe somewhere you might go.00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:56.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: for a week, and then somewhere that you might visit if you were… if you were touring, or possibly if you're over for work, and you happen to be roughly in that area to give people a sense of, you know, where it might be worth doing a little side trip to while they were doing that.00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:56.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:03.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: So if you are happy with that structure, I could work from that. Okay, cool.00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:01.000Stuart Winchester: I love it.00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:03.000Stuart Winchester: Full speed ahead. Let's do it.00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Okay, cool. So, I think…00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:26.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: We've seen more Americans coming over to Europe over the last few years, and that is to do with these. That is to do with the passes. No, it's a pleasure. I mean, I talk to everybody when I'm on a chairlift or in a gondola, and if I hear someone who's from the States or maybe from Canada, I'm always interested to know, you know, why they've come over, and predominantly it's because.00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:12.000Stuart Winchester: Sorry.00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:22.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:26.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:46.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: they've got the passes. And, you know, I spent a lot of time in Chamonix last winter, and evidently you get a lot of people in Chamonix. Chamonix is one of the ones on the Icon Pass, I believe, as is Zermatt. Now, Chamonix and Zermatt are two amazing destinations. They really are fantastic. You can see them, actually, on the map that you've got in the video now.00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:54.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: They're quite close to each other. They're probably about two and a half hours by car apart. You could fly into Geneva for both of them.00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm, okay.00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:12:54.000 --> 00:13:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: They are fantastic resorts, fantastic destinations. They're my two favorites in Europe.00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:01.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:02.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:20.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But they're not necessarily going to be suitable for everyone. And the reason I say that is Chamonix is incredible. It's in the middle of a very dramatic valley. You have Mont Blanc, the highest mountain in Europe, at 4,800 meters on one side. You can take the Aguille de Midi.00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:21.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:35.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Which is the lift that goes up to 3,800 roughly meters. And ski the Valley Blanche from there. Lots of people will have, you know, heard of that very famous off-piste run. It's incredible just to go up to the Aguirre de Midi.00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:31.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:49.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But in terms of the ski areas itself, they're very disparate. They're not connected, uh, in the same way as we might come onto the Three Valleys, uh, you know, shortly. So…00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:42.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:44.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:13:49.000 --> 00:14:00.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you've got to put in a bit of legwork if you're going to go to Chamonix. The connections between them generally involve getting a bus, and even if you're staying right in the center of town, you've got to get a bus.00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:52.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: or maybe a train from one end of the valley to ski the five different areas that you have in Chamonix-Mont-Blanc. And I think…00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:11.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And I'm not 100%, I'm not the expert on the icon passes, but…00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:26.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The Icon Pass only covers the lifts that are in that area. There's also a couple of areas which are included on your map there, actually, Megeve and Les Contamines. You can get a lift ticket in Chamonix when I stay there that covers all of those.00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:21.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And you can ski over there as well.00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:48.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so Mijeve, I'm sorry to interrupt, but Mijeve has been added to the Icon Pass, but it took me so long to sort out even what that meant when they said Mijeve, and even Icon Pass themselves didn't seem to know. We'll get to that mess in a little bit, but Mijeve is on the Icon Pass, uh, you know, along with Shamani, and those are separate buckets of days.00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh so.00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:32.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.000Stuart Winchester: Then, like in Tammany, which is part of Mijav, is also on Indy.00:14:52.000 --> 00:15:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, exactly. Megeve isn't really part of Chamonix, but it is covered on that very big pass that you can buy. My point being really that Chamonix is fantastic. It's an amazing town. It has an incredible history.00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:01.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:21.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It's where the first Winter Olympic Games are in 1924. You can get really close to, uh, Mont Blanc. You could ski the Vallee Blanche. There are lots and lots of options for, uh, high mountain skiing, but for a more recreational skier.00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:27.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it's perhaps not as good. If we look at Zermatt, another one, yes, yep.00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:39.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so let me pause one moment on Chamonix first. So, I want to point out, the Icon Pass, for whatever reason, does not cover the Algo de Midi, or whatever, I'm sure I pronounced it wrong, the big tram. How important is it to just pony up, buy that tram ride anyway?00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:35.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yes, okay.00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I mean, we had… we stayed out there for 2 months last winter, and we had lots of friends come to visit us, and with all of them.00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:56.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: we recommended that you go up there. It really is something quite special, being so high, so close to.00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Mont Blanc itself, but also just for the type of visitors we had, who weren't really expert skiers, to get an insight into the high mountain, because you do see skiers who are heading off down the Valley Blanche, and the Valley Blanche is a relatively accessible off-piste run with a guide.00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:07.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: but other skiers who are doing much more hardcore stuff, or climbers who are up there, who are practicing their mountaineering skills. And if you go up the Aguirre de Midi, you get an insight to all of that. I mean, I met some of your American friends who were over, who were.00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:46.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Really going for it, going down the Cosmic. When I met them, going up with some friends to the Aguirre-Midi, they were on their second ascent of the day. They'd already gone up, done the Valley Blanche, come back up, and then they were on their way down Cosmic to stay in a refuge for the night.00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:48.000Stuart Winchester: Of course, yeah.00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:51.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I really would recommend it. And yes, it is expensive.00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:03.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it could even be worth just buying that Montblanc Unlimited ticket in advance, because it's dynamic pricing. It's one of those things where if you buy it in advance, it's less expensive than buying it on the day.00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. And Mont Blanc, just for my listeners, is, I believe, the tallest mountain in Europe.00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, highest mountain in Western Europe. I think it's 4,810 meters.00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:17.000Stuart Winchester: All right, so over to Zermatt.00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Zermatt, I worked a season there as well. Absolutely beautiful place. Zermatt Matterhorn, as it's known. The Matterhorn is the standout attraction. It is just an incredible looking mountain.00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:27.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The village itself, in my opinion, very pretty. Lots of traditional chalets, traditional buildings.00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:39.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:55.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: they have controlled development of it. It's not full of skyscrapers. Without going into the details, there was a proposal to build, you know, one recently that really got it dampened down pretty quickly.00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:17:55.000 --> 00:18:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: You can only get there by train. It's a car-free resort, which adds to the charm as well.00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:12.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: really, I would say, if… the only negatives are that it's quite expensive. It is one of the most expensive destinations in Europe.00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: There are a lot of, uh, visitors, a bit like Chamonix, who go there not necessarily to ski, but because they want to go and see the Matterhorn, in the same way that you could go up the Agua de Midi in Chamonix. There's a Gornergrat, uh, cog railway.00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:27.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:46.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: which will take you up, uh, to a fantastic view looking over, uh, the Matterhorn. So, I guess you're competing a little bit with the non-skiers. The ski area itself is better connected than Chamonix. It goes up high. You've also got lifts of skiing up to 3,800 meters.00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:49.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: at the Klein Matterhorn area.00:18:49.000 --> 00:19:03.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: typically they have summer skiing there as well. It's actually closed this summer for a little while because of the weather, but, you know, it's so high, and because of the glacier, they can offer skiing all year round. So, I really do love Zermatt.00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:56.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:05.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The only negative would be…00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:16.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it's expensive, you know, you just gotta face up to that fact if you want to go there, but it has a cachet and a feel to it that I just, uh, love.00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:11.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:34.000Stuart Winchester: And one thing this map doesn't show is it does interconnect with Turbinia, which is now on Icon Pass, but separate days. So once you cross, if you use the day of Zermatt, even if it's the same day, you cross into Turbinia, you're using another Icon Pass day. It doesn't really matter for most Americans who are visiting anyway.00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:39.000Stuart Winchester: But what do you think about Slovenia? Is it worth it to pop over there?00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, well, interesting you should mention that. So I picked Chamonix and Zermatt as the first two because they are the most well-known.00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:19:47.000 --> 00:20:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But it's not strictly necessary to go to those two places and base yourself there. And you mentioned that, uh, you know, Cervinia is on… did you… did you say Cervinia is on… sorry, which pass again?00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:05.000Stuart Winchester: So, it's on ICON, and the reason I didn't have it…00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah. Okay.00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:12.000Stuart Winchester: called out. It's under Valle de Oesta, Italy, so that includes, uh, Pila, it includes, uh…00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:09.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:10.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:19.000Stuart Winchester: Slovenia, it includes Cormier, it includes some other ones, but I made the map fast.00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:17.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:35.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, Stuart, you are… you are very well, uh, informed. You're right. I mean, you can see it on the map that we're looking at below us. You can get from Chamonix to Courmayeur very easily through the Mont Blanc tunnel. It's actually a 22 kilometer tunnel, and we skied over in Courmayeur while we were there. Lots of.00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:24.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:30.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:33.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:50.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Chamonix, people who are based in Chamonix do go over there, because, uh, although the ski area is limited, there are more trees over there, you know, on a bad weather day, it's a really good place to ski, and it's included on the Mont Blanc Unlimited Pass. And Courmayeur is right at the top.00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:39.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:49.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:59.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: of the Aosta Valley. So where that little yellow, uh, icon is, underneath where it says Val de Aosta, is Courmayeur.00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:53.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:58.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:09.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But the Cormier… if I understand it correctly, then, all of the Aosta Valley resorts are included on the Icon Pass. So, as you say, Cormier… Cormier…00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:07.000Stuart Winchester: Correct.00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:26.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It's quite a shishi kind of resort. You'll find lots of Milanese and Turinese will go up there for the weekend. There are lots of very smart shops in the little high street there. There's some very, very good restaurants up there.00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The ski area is not as big, probably, you know, 50km, two, three days for a, you know, a good advanced skier would be sufficient to ski a lot of it. But you can get access up to the Vallee Blanche from the Italian side as well.00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:44.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:59.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And that lift was upgraded a few years ago. And it's very, very impressive. It's much more modern than the Aguirre de Midi. And it has, you know, museums at the mid station and at the top station, which explore the history of mountaineering in the area.00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:49.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:05.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: So, I would actually say that if someone's, you know, looking to stay.00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: For a week.00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:19.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: and they have an Icon Pass, that the Ossa Valley could be a really good choice. If you had a car as well, because you can then explore Courmayeur, and then you mentioned Chavinha.00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:34.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: So, uh, slightly further down the valley, uh, and then up the hill, you mentioned that Shavinia links with Zermatt, and Shavinia is a really good resort. It's high, uh, it has.00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:45.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Quite wide pistes, quite flattering type of skiing. It has Italian cuisine, as all of the Aosta Valley does. Much.00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:55.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: more affordable than Zermatt, but you could ski over to Zermatt for the day and ski the Zermatt area, uh, as well.00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:50.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:22:55.000 --> 00:23:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: So, Chavinha, you know, is great. There's also a smaller resort called La Tuile, uh, in the Aosta Valley as well, which…00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:09.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it is worth a day or two. That actually links over to a French resort called La Rozier. I doubt.00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:21.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: that would be included, and I don't see it on your list. Uh, and what I do see included a bit further down, we're moving around the map quite a lot, there is an area called Monterosa.00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:22.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: which is on the Aosta Valley as well. Uh, and there's two areas there called Gressenet.00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:41.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, and Alanya, and the skiing in both of those, I believe, is included, uh, within that. And, uh, you know, in Gressenet, uh, and Alanya, there's some quite advanced skiing there, up in Monterosa.00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:53.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: um, some really good, you know, off-piste, uh, challenging skiing, and in fact, you can do heli-skiing out of those areas. Heli-skiing is banned in France, but it's legal in Italy, so you can ski, and it'.00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:48.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:51.000Stuart Winchester: Oh.00:23:53.000 --> 00:24:04.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: legal in Switzerland as well, but you can ski out of Alanya, and heliski up to the mountain called Monterosa, and, uh, you know, access some amazing off-piste from there.00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:58.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:22.000Stuart Winchester: That's incredible. I, you know, for a while, Google Maps took that. I'm looking at the map here and I changed the settings so that the lifts show up. And for a while, Google Maps had taken them off and now they've added them back on. And so you can just really get to see the scale of what's going on in Europe. And I know what Americans are going to want to do.00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:29.000Stuart Winchester: when they look at Chamonix. They're going to want to take the Algomenidae up, and they're going to try to ski down into Italy. Is.00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:50.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, I mean, it is possible. Quite literally, if you did that to the Aguirre de Midi, you could ski, you'd have to ski tour up slightly, and then you could ski down. I wouldn't suggest doing that without a guide. You know, it is feasible to do it, and when last time I went up the, uh, the lift from the Courmayeur side, I saw tracks below.00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:32.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:34.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:39.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:24:50.000 --> 00:25:04.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: but it's not a straightforward route. Cormier's 1,200 meters, you know, you can get snow all the way to the bottom, but yeah, it's possible, but definitely, you know, take a guide, I would suggest.00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:11.000Stuart Winchester: Right. All right, so let's continue with the hero trip here. Where next, Ian?00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:25.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, well, again, if you're thinking about, you know, some of the great resorts in Europe, I'm actually going to pick St. Anton in Austria next, because that is listed on the spreadsheet I'm looking at as Skjalberg.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:20.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:25.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:27.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: On the epic, on the epic pass.00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:34.000Stuart Winchester: Right. Yeah. Everything has 10 names there. That's another, that's another reason I, we needed you on here. Um.00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah. Well…00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:41.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, Ski… Ski Aalberg is… so, let's just have a look at where you are. It's gonna be slightly to the, uh, west.00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:39.000Stuart Winchester: There it is. There it is. I found it.00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:59.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, there you go, Ski Aalberg. So, Ski Aalberg… Aalberg is, like, a region of Austria that sits within Tyrol, one of the, uh, the cantons, and in fact, that is quite good, the level that you've got it at right there. You can see, just on the video that I'm looking at, uh, at the moment.00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:44.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, there we go.00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:51.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:55.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: That you've got St. Anton is sitting almost underneath where it says Ski Aalberg. It's pretty easy to get to.00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:11.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:25.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you can get there… you can fly into either Innsbruck, or you can fly into Zurich. For, you know, I typically travel by train, but, you know, from both of those, it's about an hour and a half or so by train.00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:20.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, roughly, uh, transfer time. A really good train station in St. Anton. And St. Anton…00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:40.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: is an amazing destination. I was lucky enough to learn to ski there, you know, when I was a kid.00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:50.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And I think what… it ticks a lot of boxes. It does have, uh, maybe contrary to some people's impressions, amazing food.00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:50.000 --> 00:27:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: There's, like, a Michelin-star restaurant at the mid-station, just above a resort, which is, you know, well worth checking out. But lots of resorts, lots of restaurants in the town as well.00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:54.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:03.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Has legendary apres ski.00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:12.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: There are two bars located opposite each other, which some listeners may have heard of, called the Crazy Kangaroo.00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:12.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And the moose avert.00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:15.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And these are, like, legendary at the end of the day. Skiers will go there, they'll be dancing on the tables, they'll be, uh, you know, knocking back whatever they can, and then skiing down very, very carefully.00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:44.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, to the resort, the remaining, kind of, 500 meters or so. They do actually encourage people to get a bus back, uh, now, uh, if you can, because there is a little bit of a history of… of accidents, but those two, you know, have amazing apres ski.00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:34.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:37.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:45.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:44.000 --> 00:28:00.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Really good restaurants, but the ski area is fantastic. Ski Aalberg covers all of the resorts in that area. On the level of maps on at the moment, you can see over to the left, there's an area called St. Christoph. You can link over to St. Christoph.00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:08.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you can link over to Steuben, quite easy to ski over there, and then just to the north of the map, as we're looking at it at the moment, will be Lech.00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:17.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: which is also part of Ski Aalberg. You know, you can stay in Lech. I tend to favor St. Anton, there's a lot more going on. Lech is a bit…00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:12.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:17.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: how can I put it? Posher, quite frankly. You know, frequented by the Dutch royal family and, uh, and others. You know, the British royal family historically used to go there as well. You can actually ski on Ski Arburg all the way up to that town called.00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:21.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay.00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Vaath, or Vaath, which is right at the top of the map. That is a very long day, and the connections to there are quite difficult. But it is a…00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:35.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, gosh.00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:38.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:44.000Stuart Winchester: You can ski from there to…00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:59.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, you could ski between there and St. Anton and back in a single day. You can get a certificate if you follow the whole route and do it. But it is a very large ski area. But St. Anton itself, really brilliant place to base yourself.00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:46.000Stuart Winchester: You're saying, wow.00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:48.000Stuart Winchester: Jeez.00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:52.000Stuart Winchester: Unbelievable.00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:53.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, lift connections are really good, the resort is really good, and, you know, that would be one of the reasons I would suggest that.00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And just another kind of equivalent destination for the hero trip. Oh, sorry. Go on. Go on. Yes.00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:18.000Stuart Winchester: Let me just pause and ask you one question about Ahlberg. So, you know, again, Americans are…00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:34.000Stuart Winchester: And that's, I don't want to mean to speak for the whole nation, but they tend to fall into the checklist trap where they're just trying to get to everything. Would you recommend trying to ski from here to there, or would you recommend settling in, kind of enjoying a day at each, or maybe just.00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:27.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Hmm.00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:38.000Stuart Winchester: Seeing where the day takes you, not worrying about all the lifts.00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:53.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I mean, I would only do that for a long way to go. I mean, it's quite a long way to go to Lech and back for the day. And there is a lot of really good skiing in St. Anton. I actually tend to favor the St. Christoph Steuben.00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:50.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:29:53.000 --> 00:30:09.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: area, because it doesn't get skied as much as some of the other areas, and there's a lot to ski there, so you can have peace to yourself, whereas it might be much busier closer to St. Anton. There's actually another area you can see with the lifts that you've got there going slightly south.00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:58.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:24.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: from St. Anton, that goes to an area called Rendle, which is part of the Ski Arburg area. And, you know, Rendle is another really good ski area that's often underskied. I mean, you could spend a day skiing over there on its own.00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:16.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:30.000Stuart Winchester: Is… is that… is that part of Ski Aalberg? On the Epic Pass? It is? Okay. Okay.00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's part of Schiberg as well, yeah.00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:37.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, great. All right. Anwar, you were gonna tell us about another, I think, Austrian destination.00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:39.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I was gonna go the other… the other very obvious, I would say.00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:39.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:40.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Um…00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:44.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Big destination is Verbier.00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Which I believe is also on the Epic Pass.00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:58.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, so Verbier's in Switzerland, quite close to Chamonix. You can drive between Chamonix and Verbier in an hour and a quarter. Again, you'd fly into Geneva.00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:50.000Stuart Winchester: Ah, yeah, let's…00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. Oh, there it is.00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:55.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:56.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: really easy to get to from Geneva. You can actually get the train all the way from Geneva Airport direct to the town at the bottom of Verbier, which is called Le Chapelle, and then they have a gondola, which, uh… which you guys call a tram, I think, or, uh…00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:07.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:14.000Stuart Winchester: There.00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:25.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it's a bubble lift, however you want to term it, that goes directly from the valley floor, connects directly out of the railway station and up into Verbier.00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:17.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:26.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And, you know, Verbier…00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Brilliant resort. Such an amazing ski area. It's actually listed on there as a Catra Valley, the Four Valleys, and that's because it also includes several other resorts as well, which are called, I think, Lazu… you can just about see them. Lazuma, Nonda.00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:30.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:37.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:48.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: and Vaesuna, which are just slightly to the north there.00:31:48.000 --> 00:32:00.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, so they're all included in that area. It's a big ski area, but Verbier has a lot going on. Uh, again, you know, good apres ski, really good, uh, restaurants, uh, but.00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:52.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Particularly for the more advanced skiers, there's some incredible off-piste there. You know, you can…00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:12.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: um… go off… off the back from the top of Mon4.00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: with a guide, just again, and there's a huge area that can open up there. You can also do heli skiing out of Verbier to access some of the other peaks around there, but you can stay in the inbounds area and still ski a lot of really good off-piste.00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:34.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It's high as well, you know, the resort itself is 1600 meters, and I think it goes up to.00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:45.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: 3… 2… I'm not 100% sure about that, but certainly high. So, you know, you have regular snow. I mean, I skied there in the last week of…00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: April last year.00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:47.000 --> 00:33:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: and there was still plenty of snow. Um, it's, you know, it's expensive. It's not quite as expensive as, uh, Zermatt. It doesn't have the view of the Matterhorn, but it is one of the world's best ski resorts, for sure.00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:56.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:14.000Stuart Winchester: So that's on Epic Pass, and it's, you know, Vail has purchased a couple of ski areas at Kranz, Montana, and Andermatt-Suderun, and it's also… the Epic Pass is unlimited on DeSantis, which is right.00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:23.000Stuart Winchester: contiguous with the Entermeister Druun. If you have the Epic Pass, is it worth trying to do a trip with all of those, or is Verbier enough?00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:32.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And Verbier's definitely enough for a whole week. If you had a car, Cro-Montana isn't very far away, it would probably only take you…00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:45.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, an hour and a bit… I'm gonna say an hour and a quarter, perhaps, to, uh, get there. Cremontana's a big area in itself. It's, um… you know, I've skied there on many occasions, and I really like it. It's not… I've been there…00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:36.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: On a family holiday.00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:48.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Whereas…00:33:48.000 --> 00:34:05.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I would go to Verbier because I like to ski kind of, uh, steep and off-piste, uh, you know, with a guide. And probably it's too expensive to take a family to. Cromontana is, uh, you know, a bit more, uh, affordable. I mean, it's still a very smart, uh, resort.00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But if you wanted to explore, you could go there. Amount is a bit more of a stretch in terms of distance.00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:18.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: You know, if you were on a tour, and you're an Epic Pass holder, you could take it in.00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Now, I'm also a fan of Andermatt. I've been there several times, uh, as well. Again, probably go to Zurich for Andermatt. You can get the train from Zurich in about an hour and a half, something like that. And it's a really interesting story, uh, Andermatt. You know, it used to be…00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Its location is strategically significant in the middle of several valleys. So at once upon a time, it used to be an army base.00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:55.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And then, when the army, uh, withdrew, it kind of went into decline for a long time. And it was bought by, uh, the area was brought by a property developer.00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:55.000 --> 00:35:08.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And ultimately, he built it up, and more recently, Vale Resorts have taken that over. And so there's a lot of new accommodations, some incredibly nice restaurants. Again, more Michelin stars there. I've got a feeling…00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It might have the highest number of Michelin stars per capita for any.00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:16.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: town in the world.00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:26.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, and the skiing itself, you know, again, I've been there with a guide, there's some excellent off-piste skiing, but there's, you know, a good amount of on-piste skiing as well.00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It's a really, it's really appealing area.00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:35.000Stuart Winchester: So you mentioned having a guide many times, and I think that's, you know, in…00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Heh.00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:45.000Stuart Winchester: in North America, we generally only hire guides when we're going outside of the resort, and a lot of folks don't even do it then, if they're confident in their own avalanche.00:35:45.000 --> 00:36:00.000Stuart Winchester: capabilities. In general, everything within resort boundaries in North America is considered to be patrolled and controlled, meaning they'll do avalanche work, and if it's open, you can go in it without a guide. There's a few exceptions where you need transceivers, etc.00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:13.000Stuart Winchester: That's not really the case in Europe, so just from a mentality standpoint, how should skiers approach this when they're going to some of these hero resorts you're talking about, as far as.00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:18.000Stuart Winchester: Considering a guide in essential versus a luxury.00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:36.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Okay, I wouldn't want to mislead you there. I mean, guides are just on my mind, because I like a lot of backcountry skiing, and therefore, I often, you know, go with them. In bounds, you don't need a guide, absolutely not. You know, you can download the app, or get yourself a peace map, and you can.00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:27.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:58.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: go around the place as much as you want, and, uh, you know, it is fully secured, you've got ski patrol, uh, etc, so you don't need to be concerned about that. It just happens that a lot of the places that I've mentioned so far, you know, do have some of those more interesting off-piste options, and I guess it depends a bit on the listener and, you know, what they're, uh, looking for, but you… you don't…00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: need to have a guide to show you around resorts. I mean, potentially, some of these ski areas are.00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: significantly larger than they might come across in North America, and therefore.00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:12.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it could be a good investment to rent someone or to hire someone to show you around. I mean, back in the day, in the 90s, when I was working in the Alps, I worked for British tour operators, and part of my job was showing guests around the mountains and helping them orientate themselves.00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:38.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And that actually is pertinent, because the next resort I wanted, or area I wanted to mention, was Le Trois Vallees, Le Three Valleys.00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:40.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Which…00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:41.000Stuart Winchester: Also on Epic Pass.00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:45.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: also is on Epic Pass. Now, the three valleys…00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:53.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: probably has a pretty good awareness amongst the North American market. I mean, it is the world's largest ski area.00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:53.000 --> 00:38:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: There's 600 kilometers apiece there, and I work four seasons in the three valleys, three in Meribel and one in Courchevel.00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.000Stuart Winchester: Peace.00:37:58.000 --> 00:37:59.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:03.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And it is.00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: magnificent in terms of scale. There is so much skiing you can do there, and, you know, I worked four winters there. Did I ski every single run, you know, during that time? I doubt it.00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:24.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, because you tend to go back and forth across a lot of them. Uh, you know, there is so much that it's gonna take you well more than a week if you wanted to, uh.00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: ski them all, but you could certainly explore the three valleys.00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:39.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: You know, I… it's hard to know exactly which of those destinations to recommend, because it depends on the individuals to…00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:46.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: put it in context, you have three valleys, literally, over, if we were looking on the map, the left-hand side, you would have Courchevel.00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:49.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The middle, Maribel.00:38:49.000 --> 00:39:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, and the right-hand side, Val Torrens. I think as we look at the map at the moment, it's the opposite way round. So we can see on the left, you've got Val Torrens at the top. That's the highest ski resort in Europe. It's 2,300 meters itself, the resort. Not high by, like, Colorado standards or something like that, but high by European standards.00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:53.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:55.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:19.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It's above the tree line, uh, you know, it's changed a lot in recent years, but there's a lot of apartment accommodation there, there's a lot of nice four- and five-star hotels up there, uh, as well, but it doesn't have.00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:15.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Like, if you were coming to Europe for the first time, it doesn't have the kind of character, the charisma.00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:22.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:28.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: that some other resorts, let's say, like Verbier, or Zermatt, or St. Anton have, because it's modern, you know, it was built in the 1970s, so it's a purpose-built, uh, resort. Also, in that valley slightly lower down, you have Leymanduia, more.00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Prettier, you know, at the bottom, you've got a place called San Martin.00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:49.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The middle valley, Meribel.00:39:49.000 --> 00:40:04.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: that is lots of pretty chocolate box chalets. Uh, you know, I worked 3 years there. It's brilliantly connected. Uh, the resort itself is between 1,400 and 1,800 meters, so it's pretty high.00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:39:58.000 --> 00:39:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And, you know, it's a good…00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:19.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: base, I'd still, if you were thinking about that, I'd still, you know, without wishing to offend any of my friends in Mirabal, and I have very many of them, I'd probably say if you think about a week and you wanted to base yourself somewhere.00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:21.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Maybe Verbier or Saint Anton.00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: would be a better choice for that. They both have, you know, still big ski areas, and just a little bit more accessibility, uh, you know, overall.00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:25.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:39.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Courchevel, again, a resort I love that I worked in for a season.00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:41.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: There's several different…00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:46.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: um, what the French call station, different levels within Courchevel.00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:46.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:40:46.000 --> 00:41:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Courchevel 1850, most people will have heard of. It's a top station. It's at 1850 meters. It is very shishy. Five and six star hotels, 13 Michelin stars.00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:58.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:00.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, across the resort, it… you can't find… well, I have stayed there in a couple of budget accommodations, but there's not really budget accommodation. You know, if you want to go and…00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: to a resort where you may well end up, you know, sharing a hotel with, I don't know, Leo DiCaprio, or, you know, you might find a member of the British Royals there, or David Beckham, then that's the kind of place to go.00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:32.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:36.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But you're going to have to pay to go along with that. And it has fantastic skiing.00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:38.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But again.00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:45.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: if you're only coming for a shorter period of time, I'd be inclined to mention a couple of the other resorts I mentioned, plus…00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:54.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I want to mention Valdezare as well, but I don't think Valdezare is on any of the collective passes, is it?00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:58.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Uh, is it part of one of these bigger…00:41:58.000 --> 00:41:59.000Stuart Winchester: Domains or.00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:05.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: No, it is not. I mean, there is a, uh… so it's not going to come up on your map.00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But Valdisera is a brilliant…00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:24.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, resort, which does give you traditional skiing, a pretty village, a huge, uh, ski area that links up to Teen, where they have a glacier, so you can kind of guarantee that you're going to be able to get skiing. Skiing goes up to 3,500 meters there.00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:41.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And I met Americans there, so Americans certainly know about it. I met a family from, you know, Florida who were in the Folly Deuce, who were enjoying themselves in the VIP area and very kindly, you know, offered us some of their champagne.00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:29.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:53.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, at the time. You know, Founders Area is a brilliant resort, not covered on any of those passes. That doesn't mean that it's not necessarily going to be, you know, a good option, uh, for you. You know, lift tickets.00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:43.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:42:53.000 --> 00:43:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: are going to be, you know, dirt cheap compared to the States, but maybe still, like, 80 euros a day, or something like that, you know, overall, but a really good ski area. So those are all… I think we've covered all of the, kind of, the bigger.00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:08.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:18.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: kind of places there, unless you've got any other questions in relation to any of them. Oh, no, hold on! We've missed one! We've missed one! Dolomitiski!00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:15.000Stuart Winchester: No. Yeah.00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:16.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:21.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: That's on Icon, isn't it?00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:35.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, well, Dolomiti Super Ski is on Icon, Skirama Dolomiti is on Epic. They each have, like, 100 ski areas, it seems like, so… yeah, this is how they're pitched to us. I don't know how you want to make sense to them on the ground… of them on the ground.00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:34.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:51.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, okay, let's talk Dolomiti superskis. That's where the Winter Olympics were last year. Milan Cortina. Cortina is in the Dolomites. And it is a huge superski area, you know, depending how you do the definitions, it's larger.00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:39.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:40.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:43.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:45.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:50.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:54.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: than L'Etoile Vallee.00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:54.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:56.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, but…00:43:56.000 --> 00:44:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Sometimes that means getting a bus in between. Uh, it is…00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It is great. You could fly into Innsbruck, you could fly into Venice, you can combine that with a trip to Venice, or maybe Verona, or Milan. They're all about equidistance from the Dolomiti Sufski.00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:16.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It's visually accurate.00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Absolutely stunning. The Dolomites are just an amazing mountain range. I found myself when I was skiing in Val Gardena, which we'll come to right in the middle of your map at the moment, just being distracted.00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I'm looking at the mountains, because they're just so gorgeous. I'm skiing down this piste. You know, looking at this mountain, thinking, oh my god, this is just amazing. And then on top of that, you know, you have.00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:36.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yah.00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:58.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Italian cuisine, Italian prices, you know, yeah, Cortina's the most expensive. Again, quite a lot of, uh, you know, Milanese would go up there for the weekend, but, you know, overall, Selva, again, roughly around the middle of your, uh, map at the moment. Yeah, really…00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:58.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Really good value, you know, considering it's a really good access point for a fantastic ski area.00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:01.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:09.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And it has…00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:16.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The Superski is not a misnomer. It is a very large ski area.00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:27.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And there's some amazing circuits that you can do there. So I would probably recommend, if you were thinking about it, Cortina or Silva Val Gardena would be the two best places to locate yourself.00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:37.000Stuart Winchester: And do you like Superski over Vail's Skirama Dolomiti group? And again, I've dug in a little bit, but I didn't include on this map what that…00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:42.000Stuart Winchester: contains, and I dropped the pin here on, uh, Campo Carlomagno, but…00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:46.000Stuart Winchester: It includes a lot of things in, you know, almost equal.00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:58.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I'm gonna have to put my hand up and say I don't know that area as well. I haven't actually skied there myself. It is, to my mind, and I can check your stats because I've got it in front of me, you're saying it's roughly the same skiable area.00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Right. Was that the vertical drop?00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:01.000Stuart Winchester: That's the stats that…00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:04.000Stuart Winchester: or on the Epic Pass website.00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:04.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:06.000Stuart Winchester

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Stuff referenced in podcast:* The Salt Lake Tribune profiles Clint Richins of Logan, who wants the State of Utah to open a ski area where “he can take his family skiing without breaking the bank.” Clint, you have an open invitation if you want to come on the pod.* Vail Resorts acknowledges Oasis Management's nomination of four new board members.* Lift Blog reported Friday that Giants Ridge, Minnesota is seeking a new operator - and I have one in mind. The ski area also updated its master development plan.* Plus listener reaction to several of last week's posts: Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.About Bear DenTranscriptsThere are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them. Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. This is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.Stuart Winchester: My guest today is the CEO of Bear Den Partners, which operates four New England ski areas. His family has operated 1,180 vertical-foot Berkshire East, Massachusetts since 1976, and acquired 1,000 vertical-foot Catamount on the New York-Massachusetts border in 2018.01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:53.000Stuart Winchester: In 2025, the family teamed up with a local group to acquire 2,057 vertical foot Burke Mountain out of receivership. And earlier this year, Bairdan purchased a majority stake in Smuggler's Notch, which with 2,610 vertical feet, 1,060 acres across three mountains, and 322 inches of average annual snowfall, is one of the largest, snowiest, and most fun ski areas in eastern North America. John Schaefer is my guest. John is a very good friend of the storm, and I welcome him back.01:14:53.000 --> 01:14:56.000Stuart Winchester: How is life leading up to ski season, John?01:14:56.000 --> 01:14:58.000Jonathan Schaefer: Oh, is what?01:14:57.000 --> 01:14:59.000Stuart Winchester: How is life?01:14:58.000 --> 01:15:01.000Jonathan Schaefer: How is life? It's good.01:15:00.000 --> 01:15:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, what delayed you today?01:15:01.000 --> 01:15:03.000Jonathan Schaefer: I'm, uh…01:15:04.000 --> 01:15:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: Uh, a skunk. So I'm a little tired. I have some Diet Pepsi here to kickstart the day, but my dog got a skunk, uh, first thing, which is great.01:15:04.000 --> 01:15:05.000Stuart Winchester: Good.01:15:05.000 --> 01:15:07.000Stuart Winchester: Let's go.01:15:08.000 --> 01:15:10.000Stuart Winchester: Thank you.01:15:14.000 --> 01:15:16.000Stuart Winchester: Massachusetts.01:15:14.000 --> 01:15:19.000Jonathan Schaefer: And it was better once I opened the door and it all came wafting into the house.01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:28.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, God, Berkshire's living. All right, well, I appreciate you fighting through that and joining us here, John. So, let's talk smugs, first of all, because.01:15:28.000 --> 01:15:44.000Stuart Winchester: You know, Bill Stritzler, I have a ton of respect for what he did at Smuggler's Notch, and how he's maintained the atmosphere, and it's consistently voted one of skier… by skiers as one of their favorite mountains, one of the best family mountains. It's also just a badass expert mountain.01:15:44.000 --> 01:15:46.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the… the…01:15:46.000 --> 01:15:48.000Stuart Winchester: the…01:15:48.000 --> 01:16:04.000Stuart Winchester: issue that comes up over and over again is, of course, the chairlifts. There are 7 haul lifts. They are a combined 392 years old. Uh, they are a combined 29,439 feet long. That's 5.58 miles. Uh, Madonna is the oldest.01:16:04.000 --> 01:16:21.000Stuart Winchester: 6,719-foot-long 1963 haul, it got a new top terminal in 2002, which I believe is the drive terminal. Sterling is the next longest, it's a 1964 haul, and the Village Lift is the next longest at 5,155 feet, that's 1967, so…01:16:21.000 --> 01:16:28.000Stuart Winchester: those are sort of the three main lifts, and then there's some other little lifts, Madonna 2 and a T-bar and such, but… but John…01:16:28.000 --> 01:16:39.000Stuart Winchester: I think everyone wants to know, what are you gonna do about the Lyft fleet at Smug's, because you have a contingent that loves the old Lyfts and doesn't want you to, but you have another contingent that's like…01:16:39.000 --> 01:16:44.000Stuart Winchester: That's why I don't go there. So what do you have in mind? What can you tell us?01:16:43.000 --> 01:16:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: Well, I mean, it's a problem that's highlighted by all the fun facts you just gave us here. And give you credit for that, going back to the announcement letter and post that you did.01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:01.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:17:01.000 --> 01:17:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: It's the balance between preservation and conservation, right? I mean, it's an environmental argument, it's a scary management argument, it's… do you preserve it, and do you keep it just exactly like it is?01:17:04.000 --> 01:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:17:12.000 --> 01:17:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: Or do you conserve an asset on into the future? And that's a fancy way of saying that, nice try, you're not going to quite get the answer today.01:17:24.000 --> 01:17:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, we have to have some reality here, right? Which is…01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:31.000Jonathan Schaefer: Those lifts are in excellent shape.01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:40.000Jonathan Schaefer: maintenance going on through the years and decades will become harder and harder and harder. And we're gonna have to address the problems.01:17:40.000 --> 01:17:43.000Jonathan Schaefer: before they become problems. So.01:17:43.000 --> 01:17:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: Eyes wide open.01:17:45.000 --> 01:17:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: We are looking at everything at Smuggler's Notch, including the lift system.01:17:50.000 --> 01:17:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: Also, in perfect honesty, there isn't just.01:17:55.000 --> 01:18:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: a single plan that's gonna work there. You know, there's not.01:18:01.000 --> 01:18:08.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, there's not an endless pool of capital to go through and replace. How many? How many lineal feet of lift is that.01:18:07.000 --> 01:18:10.000Stuart Winchester: 29,439.01:18:10.000 --> 01:18:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, that's just under six miles of lift line.01:18:13.000 --> 01:18:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:18:14.000 --> 01:18:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, that's a lot right? And it's a pretty big, angry mountain.01:18:16.000 --> 01:18:17.000Stuart Winchester: Right.01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:23.000Jonathan Schaefer: So when you look at that hillside and you contemplate driving.01:18:23.000 --> 01:18:25.000Jonathan Schaefer: Concrete up to the top, or…01:18:25.000 --> 01:18:29.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, you're flying helicopters in, and it's a massive project.01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:32.000Jonathan Schaefer: So, we have to just do…01:18:32.000 --> 01:18:48.000Jonathan Schaefer: the right amount of work to keep that mountain, you know, going and thriving into the future. But also, you know, to your point, you know, people love it. You know, people love these mountains. They love them to death sometimes. We don't want that to happen.01:18:49.000 --> 01:19:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um, but we respect everybody's point of view and we're just gonna have to work with our community to, to sort of telegraph those changes when they come up. And right now there's, uh, there's no major changes. You know, I don't have a.01:19:00.000 --> 01:19:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: an SE group plan that I can peel off the desk here and lay it out in front of you and show you exactly what's going on. I think that we've been around long enough that we got an idea, but we're not quite there yet.01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:27.000Stuart Winchester: I think the big question for Smugs that I've been trying to figure out for a while is, if you want the throwback experience in New England, you just drive an hour down the road to Mount River Glen, and they have a single chair that goes 2,000 vertical feet, and they have great terrain, and they've put a lot of money into creating.01:19:27.000 --> 01:19:38.000Stuart Winchester: the facade of being a 1940s ski area. But it's modern, they groom, they make snow below 20-whatever, 100 feet. So, the question, I think, for Smuggler's Notch is.01:19:29.000 --> 01:19:30.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:19:38.000 --> 01:19:54.000Stuart Winchester: Is there room for a second throwback ski area in New England, and do you want it to be that? Do you want, for example, to say, no, we'll never put in a high-speed lift, like smug should have slow lifts even if they're, even if they're new, uh, or, you know, the lift.01:19:54.000 --> 01:19:59.000Stuart Winchester: The trail footprint should stay. Do you have any thoughts on modernization?01:19:56.000 --> 01:20:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, it really gets to capacity, Stuart. And this is, this is, it's like this, it's almost like the saber metrics of skiing, right? Like where the numbers, what do they mean? I'm sitting here at Berkshire East and pardon the screwdriver, it's my pointer.01:19:59.000 --> 01:20:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:20:03.000 --> 01:20:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: I've got two lifts in front of me.01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: One's a high speed quad that moves around 600 people per hour, and one's a sky track quad.01:20:22.000 --> 01:20:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: with over twice as many chairs. It does. It's rated to move up to 2,400 people per hour.01:20:26.000 --> 01:20:29.000Stuart Winchester: Wait, your high-speed quad moves 600 people an hour?01:20:28.000 --> 01:20:30.000Jonathan Schaefer: 1600.01:20:29.000 --> 01:20:31.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay.01:20:30.000 --> 01:20:33.000Jonathan Schaefer: Sorry, I may have misspoke.01:20:34.000 --> 01:20:37.000Jonathan Schaefer: And we can bump it to 1800.01:20:36.000 --> 01:20:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:20:37.000 --> 01:20:42.000Jonathan Schaefer: But you know, right out here I got a fixed script that moves more people than a high speed.01:20:42.000 --> 01:20:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:20:43.000 --> 01:20:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: Now…01:20:45.000 --> 01:20:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: up the road from me is another mountain, Berkshire Snowmason. It no longer exists. It was founded by a World War II vet. And he has a great quote from the early 1960s, where he says.01:20:55.000 --> 01:21:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: People care more about how they go up the mountain than how they look coming down it.01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:11.000Jonathan Schaefer: And at the time, he was complaining about a ski lift that went in at Jiminy Peak, where he had T-bars, and he felt that he had been left behind. So there's a lot of different emotions. There's, like, the raw numbers.01:21:05.000 --> 01:21:07.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:21:11.000 --> 01:21:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:21:11.000 --> 01:21:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: Fixed scripts are great. They a lot of butts in the air. My dad.01:21:15.000 --> 01:21:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: I think it was talking to Everett Kircher, and that's what Everett used to tell him. He used to say.01:21:21.000 --> 01:21:25.000Jonathan Schaefer: Their butts are in the air, you know, and not on the hill.01:21:24.000 --> 01:21:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:21:25.000 --> 01:21:31.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so you either have people in a line, on a lift, or on a trail.01:21:31.000 --> 01:21:35.000Jonathan Schaefer: If you accelerate one of those numbers, they're gonna show up someplace else. It's just…01:21:35.000 --> 01:21:38.000Jonathan Schaefer: Physics. There's no way around it.01:21:36.000 --> 01:21:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:21:38.000 --> 01:21:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so you gotta look at all that stuff when you do this work. And you know, while I don't have a solid answer, I do have a commitment to doing our best to.01:21:47.000 --> 01:21:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: to getting the right answers for the resort.01:21:48.000 --> 01:21:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:21:50.000 --> 01:21:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: And for our customer base. And in terms of nostalgia, there's never going to be a point.01:21:55.000 --> 01:22:01.000Jonathan Schaefer: where there's not a nostalgic lift, you know, in the foreseeable future at Smuggler's Notch.01:22:00.000 --> 01:22:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:22:01.000 --> 01:22:08.000Jonathan Schaefer: But the the question is that lift appropriate for the terrain? Is it the right one? Is the wrong one?01:22:06.000 --> 01:22:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:22:08.000 --> 01:22:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: But inevitably, I mean, your stats tell all, you know, we're we're gonna be doing something at some point.01:22:14.000 --> 01:22:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think there's two good models that I look to of…01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:35.000Stuart Winchester: really atmospheric ski areas that have upgraded without losing that cachet. One is A-Basin, where the oldest lift, I think, is 2007 Zuma, and they have a combination. They have a high-speed quad, a high-speed six-pack, two long fixed-grip quads, and when they replaced the Pella Vicini.01:22:35.000 --> 01:22:52.000Stuart Winchester: double chair, I think in 2020, they just replaced… it was a 1970s lift, they replaced it with a brand new double chair that was made, I think, by Doppelmeyer. Same exact specs, it's just a new machine. The other example is Alta, which, if you go back to the 90s, had a bunch of double chairs just all over the mountain.01:22:52.000 --> 01:23:05.000Stuart Winchester: have consolidated most of those to one line and replaced them, almost all but Wildcat Double, with high-speed chairs. So, looking at those two models and thinking about it, and people still love those ski areas because they're the ski areas.01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:20.000Stuart Winchester: Looking at those two models, do you start to get a sense of, like, is it really that it's a 1962 Hall double that people care about, or is it more that you create, as you said, a chair that matches the terrain? Do you get any inspiration from those other skiers as you think about this?01:23:22.000 --> 01:23:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, I mean…01:23:24.000 --> 01:23:37.000Jonathan Schaefer: I would say, we've all been to a place, whether it's a restaurant or a ski area, I mean, I love to ski, so I've skied all over the world, and you go someplace, and you go back to it, and somebody did something to screw it up, and it pisses you off. I mean, that's really what.01:23:30.000 --> 01:23:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:23:35.000 --> 01:23:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:23:37.000 --> 01:23:42.000Jonathan Schaefer: And we've all seen it. We've all experienced it.01:23:42.000 --> 01:23:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: Then we've also seen thoughtful design.01:23:45.000 --> 01:23:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:23:47.000 --> 01:23:54.000Jonathan Schaefer: when we took over the Hermitage Club during COVID and started operating it, there was 27 point-of-sales.01:23:54.000 --> 01:23:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: on the first floor alone.01:23:56.000 --> 01:23:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:23:57.000 --> 01:24:07.000Jonathan Schaefer: just to handle food and beverage. Right? And so you start to add it up. And it's like, Wow, you know, if maybe if they just designed the food and beverage system better.01:23:58.000 --> 01:24:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:24:07.000 --> 01:24:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: you could have gotten through it with a a lot less point of sale, folks, and.01:24:12.000 --> 01:24:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: design is really critical, it's scariest. And… you really have to understand what you're doing when you make a 30, or 40, or 50, or, in Smug's case, 60-year investment in a ski lift.01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:24:24.000 --> 01:24:26.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um, because…01:24:26.000 --> 01:24:34.000Jonathan Schaefer: You don't wanna fly that concrete up that mountain more than you have to. You know, you don't wanna undo it down the road. So.01:24:35.000 --> 01:24:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: Again, there's a lot of factors that go into how to tweak a mountain and what makes sense and what doesn't.01:24:42.000 --> 01:24:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: And how not to ruin it. Um…01:24:45.000 --> 01:24:58.000Jonathan Schaefer: And, and that's, it's a big, it's a big task, you know, with a lot of responsibility that we definitely, you know, we, we're not just gonna go in there willy-nilly and start throwing stuff around and start moving things. ‘cause that, that is how you screw it up.01:24:48.000 --> 01:24:50.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.01:24:58.000 --> 01:24:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: Oh.01:24:58.000 --> 01:25:15.000Stuart Winchester: Do you think you have a priority, John, between Morse, generally considered the beginner mountain, Sterling, generally considered the intermediate mountain, and Madonna, generally considered the expert mountain, as far as where you think upgrades should be concentrated first, infrastructure-wise? And we can also talk about snowmaking here, which I know you've already announced.01:25:16.000 --> 01:25:28.000Jonathan Schaefer: It sort of matches the, the available equipment to the mountain, I would say. You know, there's, there's certain, there's certain things we, we gotta figure that out. That's, that's, that's what the next six months of my life will be focused on.01:25:26.000 --> 01:25:28.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:25:28.000 --> 01:25:33.000Stuart Winchester: So talk about the snowmaking upgrades that you've already announced at Smugs, and what you hope to achieve there.01:25:33.000 --> 01:25:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: So this some going into the sale. We had a pretty good understanding of of some of the broad strokes work that needs to get done, and snowmaking is always a huge.01:25:45.000 --> 01:25:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: a huge factor for us.01:25:47.000 --> 01:26:01.000Jonathan Schaefer: And how we approach resorts, you know, it's literally, you go up the mountain, and you come down the mountain. And ideally, you come down on as many different trails as possible, and with as good of conditions as possible, and that's the snow aspect.01:26:00.000 --> 01:26:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:26:01.000 --> 01:26:07.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so, we always start there, you know that. Uh, smugglers, each mountain always has different, sort of.01:26:07.000 --> 01:26:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: Assets, you know, it's like…01:26:10.000 --> 01:26:16.000Jonathan Schaefer: You buy a house, it's got a great kitchen, you don't like the bathroom, right? And then vice versa.01:26:16.000 --> 01:26:23.000Jonathan Schaefer: Smugs… so we laid out what we thought needed to happen at Smugs, then you sort of do the low-hanging…01:26:23.000 --> 01:26:35.000Jonathan Schaefer: medium hanging, high hanging fruit, you know, to achieve the goals. And where, and we wanted to spend money where you would, the skiers would see the first, every dollar yielded the greatest results.01:26:35.000 --> 01:26:38.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so we focused a lot this year on.01:26:38.000 --> 01:26:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: fixing broken things and and dilapidated equipment, putting in fixed infrastructure on the hill. So the snowmakers themselves don't have to lug things around the less lugging they do on.01:26:40.000 --> 01:26:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:26:52.000 --> 01:26:56.000Jonathan Schaefer: big, difficult mountains in the northeast, the more snow they tend to make.01:26:56.000 --> 01:27:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: And then really incorporating, uh, the snowmaker's experience into the upgrades, so that they felt that they were part, you know, of defining what that list was gonna be. And so, it's Smuggler's Notch, right? So there's 3 mountains, so it's…01:27:10.000 --> 01:27:26.000Jonathan Schaefer: It's everything times 3. You know, there's broken thing. There's the fixed equipment that needs to be put on the hill. So we attacked each one of the the areas of the the resort, and tried to address bottlenecks or issues that could unlock a lot of.01:27:26.000 --> 01:27:36.000Jonathan Schaefer: potential out of the system. And it's sort of the first salvo. You know, you… scary operations, you know, the way you fix mountains, it's like waves on a beach. You get…01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: You get a capital plan in January, you start to execute, if you're lucky, by April.01:27:41.000 --> 01:27:49.000Jonathan Schaefer: The wave falls on the beach and then your next thing you know, it's November and you're back into operating and you gotta do it again. And there's this cycle.01:27:48.000 --> 01:27:50.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: This is what we could get done this… this year on a short, you know, transaction window, and then love plans for next year's, too, and…01:27:54.000 --> 01:27:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:27:57.000 --> 01:28:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: Those will probably have more meaningful impact.01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:17.000Stuart Winchester: Well, where are you at, John, on… you know, one thing I liked about when Eric Mogensen bought Black Mountain in New Hampshire is the… it's such a fun mountain, but the top was rarely open. They have a double chair that goes to the summit, but it has a mid-station, and for years and years, sometimes the summit wouldn't even open, and he made a commitment right away, hey.01:28:17.000 --> 01:28:26.000Stuart Winchester: run the lift to the top as much as possible, and he has, including all the way into May the last two years. How much have you thought about.01:28:26.000 --> 01:28:41.000Stuart Winchester: Getting Madonna open a little earlier in the season and, and consistently making sure that peak is open, uh, as late as possible because that's sort of, I mean, Sterling's a lot of fun, but, but Madonna is the alpha peak, right? That's the, the biggest lift, the biggest vert, the toughest terrain. That's what people think.01:28:41.000 --> 01:28:48.000Stuart Winchester: when they think of the challenging terrain as smug. So have you thought much about Madonna and its operating schedule?01:28:47.000 --> 01:28:53.000Jonathan Schaefer: The bottlenecks aren't really Madonna. It's everything that leads to Madonna.01:28:50.000 --> 01:28:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:28:52.000 --> 01:28:53.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:28:53.000 --> 01:28:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: And that's what we went to fix.01:28:55.000 --> 01:29:03.000Jonathan Schaefer: with the snowmaking system. So if you can chew through everything else, like, you gotta get beginner terrain open, you have to get…01:28:57.000 --> 01:28:58.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:29:03.000 --> 01:29:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: something for your your pass holders as fast as possible, and if that fast thing becomes faster.01:29:06.000 --> 01:29:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: or those bottlenecks disappear, then we're we're hitting Madonna.01:29:15.000 --> 01:29:20.000Jonathan Schaefer: earlier. So it it has a cascading effect throughout the whole system.01:29:20.000 --> 01:29:36.000Stuart Winchester: So speaking of pass holders, let's talk about passes. So since I was just talking about Eric and Black Mountain, let's talk about Indy Pass. So you were an early adopter of Indy Pass, going back to 2019, put Berkshire East on it, catamount right away. As soon as you bought.01:29:30.000 --> 01:29:32.000Jonathan Schaefer: Okay.01:29:36.000 --> 01:29:52.000Stuart Winchester: Burke, or were involved in Burke, it switched over from an allied mountain to full, and you just added Smugs, which is huge for IndyPass holders. You now have Jay and Smugs. I mean, four days of those alone is worth the price of an IndyPass, let alone the other dozens of mountains you have there. So talk about.01:29:48.000 --> 01:29:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: Correct?01:29:52.000 --> 01:30:06.000Stuart Winchester: your relationship with IndyPass, and ultimately why you recommitted… because they're one-year contracts, right? So why you recommitted by adding all four of your mountains, including Smugs, which you haven't had a winter to run yet, onto Indy?01:29:59.000 --> 01:30:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:30:06.000 --> 01:30:16.000Jonathan Schaefer: Indy's a really important piece for, you know, independent skiers in the country. And we, I used to have debates with different people pre Indy Pass.01:30:15.000 --> 01:30:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:30:16.000 --> 01:30:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: And one of the debates was, and I won't name them, was around.01:30:21.000 --> 01:30:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: Could there ever be a pass that represented those types of mountains?01:30:27.000 --> 01:30:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:30:27.000 --> 01:30:34.000Jonathan Schaefer: Because, let's just be… let's face it, you have the Epic Pass, which has Vail and Whistler, and…01:30:34.000 --> 01:30:42.000Jonathan Schaefer: when Doug branded the IndyPass, he gave a voice to a whole, you know, quite frankly, the majority of the ski world.01:30:42.000 --> 01:30:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:30:42.000 --> 01:30:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: Which was feeling a little left out at the time.01:30:45.000 --> 01:30:46.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:30:45.000 --> 01:30:51.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so it's done a lot for small ski areas across the country.01:30:50.000 --> 01:30:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:30:51.000 --> 01:30:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: But it's certainly done a lot for ours at Berkshire East and Catamount. So we're, what, 5 or 6 years in at having Indy at those resorts?01:30:58.000 --> 01:30:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:30:59.000 --> 01:31:01.000Jonathan Schaefer: We've certainly been.01:31:01.000 --> 01:31:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: sort of like Indy Pied Pipers along the way. It, it wasn't necessarily a layup that we were gonna do it at Smuggler's Notch. You know, it seemed obvious maybe from the outside and we'd have to get there. But our commitment really is, is to the full pass holders and the ticket holders of a resort.01:31:03.000 --> 01:31:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:31:16.000 --> 01:31:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:31:19.000 --> 01:31:36.000Jonathan Schaefer: First, you know, they're, they're sort of our primary constituents and what India Smugs allows us to do is we, we are very experienced with using the capacity controls in any pass at our other mountains. So we, a reservation system at Berkshire East and Catamount.01:31:32.000 --> 01:31:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:31:36.000 --> 01:31:48.000Jonathan Schaefer: that allows, you know, for only certain number of capacity per day. And we're pretty experienced on managing, you know, weekly, or monthly, or daily, even, on how we want to handle that.01:31:40.000 --> 01:31:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:31:48.000 --> 01:31:56.000Jonathan Schaefer: So we felt comfortable with not overwhelming the mountain. And what happens is, I think one of my critiques of the ski business is it's like…01:31:56.000 --> 01:32:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, with the multi passes, you have this slosh of people, you know, you fill a bucket full of water. It's like you got a Home Depot bucket and you're walking down the street with a bucket and it inevitably spills out and gets you wet.01:32:10.000 --> 01:32:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: And to me, that slosh is what happens when you have.01:32:14.000 --> 01:32:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: unlimited access everywhere. Right? So if Berkshire East, for example.01:32:21.000 --> 01:32:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: was…01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:29.000Jonathan Schaefer: was in a huge pass product, and we happened to get 3 feet of snow, which happens occasionally.01:32:29.000 --> 01:32:37.000Jonathan Schaefer: and 50,000 people show up at Berkshire East, that slosh would break the town, it would break the mountain, it would break everything, right?01:32:36.000 --> 01:32:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:32:37.000 --> 01:32:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: And we don't wanna have that. We actually do care about the experience at these mountains. That being said, it's important to fill up the excess capacity so we can do the snowmaking upgrades and we can do the resort upgrades that at Smuggler's Notch or the any of the other mountains that you will see the snowmaking.01:32:52.000 --> 01:32:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: you will see the improvements. And so we have to optimize.01:32:57.000 --> 01:33:02.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, around the midweek and the non busiest times.01:33:02.000 --> 01:33:08.000Jonathan Schaefer: And then, once once that stuff starts to happen, the snowmaking improvements.01:33:08.000 --> 01:33:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: More people start to show up in off-peak times. You feel that energy?01:33:12.000 --> 01:33:17.000Jonathan Schaefer: And then you got something to work with. And so.01:33:15.000 --> 01:33:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:33:17.000 --> 01:33:20.000Jonathan Schaefer: I think that's where we're headed with that relationship, and, you know…01:33:20.000 --> 01:33:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: Uh…01:33:22.000 --> 01:33:35.000Jonathan Schaefer: it's also why we didn't do the Four Mountain Pass right out of the gate. You know, I think a lot of people wondered, well, will there just be a Bearden Pass? And Bearden, you know, our core mantra is distinctly local. Like, we love.01:33:35.000 --> 01:33:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: these mountains. We love the people that make them up and the history and the legacy of those resorts.01:33:41.000 --> 01:33:51.000Jonathan Schaefer: And we care about, you know, doing our best to be caretakers, you know, so that the mountain we buy is still recognizable by the people.01:33:51.000 --> 01:33:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: who utilize it, you know, 10 or 15 years from now when they come back to it.01:33:55.000 --> 01:33:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so not overwhelming.01:33:59.000 --> 01:34:05.000Jonathan Schaefer: not having overwhelming numbers is a it's a real. I mean, it's probably the thing I've thought about most this year.01:34:06.000 --> 01:34:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so you have a couple different levels of competition here. You have the other big multi-mountain passes, you have your four mountains and your different pass products, and you're kind of competing with yourself a little by being part of India. Now we're seeing.01:34:21.000 --> 01:34:36.000Stuart Winchester: Other competing passes, the Snow Pass, run by Snow Operating, start to follow that model of two days at each mountain, and they got some really nice ones out of the gate, Whiteface and Gore. Do you think that Indy Pass will remain important long.01:34:36.000 --> 01:34:52.000Stuart Winchester: term to you as you… as you build up, you know, you have four mountains to work with, that's a pretty attractive little portfolio, especially the way they run north-south, with Catamount being two hours from New York City, and Smuggs being this great destination, and everything in between, and all easy to get to off the freeway. So… so what…01:34:44.000 --> 01:34:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:34:52.000 --> 01:34:57.000Stuart Winchester: long… as you think about passes long-term, do you think you'll stay on a multi-mountain pass? Do you think.01:34:57.000 --> 01:34:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, uh…01:34:59.000 --> 01:35:05.000Jonathan Schaefer: We're we're into hypothetical worlds. We're we're into indie. We like indie. So.01:35:01.000 --> 01:35:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:35:03.000 --> 01:35:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:35:05.000 --> 01:35:08.000Jonathan Schaefer: Why don't you tell me where you think the market's going and we'll.01:35:08.000 --> 01:35:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yes, sir.01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:27.000Stuart Winchester: I'm liking the competition. I'm liking that there's a lot of different options for consumers right now. I think the Indy Pass is, it's the largest pass coalition ever assembled in the history of the world that I'm aware of. And I just think for consumers, particularly in New England to have.01:35:16.000 --> 01:35:17.000Jonathan Schaefer: Okay.01:35:21.000 --> 01:35:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:35:28.000 --> 01:35:51.000Stuart Winchester: Those mountains, Smuggs, Jay, Waterville. And Berkshire East is such a great mountain, too, and it's almost always a top 10 on Indy Redemptions, which surprised me. So, I love where you're going. I also love the Bash Badge. Can you talk about the Bash Badge at Smuggs? Because you actually have the Bash Badge Plus, which maybe they had before, I don't know if that's new. And if that concept could roll out across your other mountains, and I know you're not…01:35:34.000 --> 01:35:35.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:35:51.000 --> 01:35:58.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Mr. Price Guy, so I can throw the prices up here. Um, the…01:35:58.000 --> 01:36:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: Well, the bash pads fits between a day ticket and a full pass, you know, just sort of.01:36:01.000 --> 01:36:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:36:04.000 --> 01:36:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: Functionally and emotionally. And it's an important piece of the product, and we've… we have evaluated it across the board. There was a… it's… it was funny, you know, it's funny not funny. We hadn't communicated it yet, but um…01:36:05.000 --> 01:36:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:36:16.000 --> 01:36:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: A lot, there was so much concern out of the sort of the smug social media.01:36:20.000 --> 01:36:22.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:36:21.000 --> 01:36:32.000Jonathan Schaefer: around their prob… quote-unquote, they are probably going to get rid of the bash badge. I'm they. They were never going to get rid of the bash badge. It's an important part of the puzzle, and uh…01:36:26.000 --> 01:36:27.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:36:29.000 --> 01:36:31.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:36:33.000 --> 01:36:36.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, it speaks to…01:36:36.000 --> 01:36:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know what you're saying about the industry.01:36:39.000 --> 01:36:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: Indy's an important funnel.01:36:40.000 --> 01:36:42.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:36:41.000 --> 01:36:51.000Jonathan Schaefer: for visitation for us. You know, Bash Badge is an important funnel. People get so… you get so locked into your routine, right? Even your social media routine, or your…01:36:48.000 --> 01:36:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:36:51.000 --> 01:36:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: web presence routine. So you're only exposed to what you're exposed to. And.01:36:57.000 --> 01:37:13.000Jonathan Schaefer: the reality is, it's tough business, you know. The winters are tough. There's a the ex. The equipment's extremely expensive, and we have 13 weeks to really get after it each year. Yeah, we need to be as in front of as many people as possible, so they can come up and.01:37:13.000 --> 01:37:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: rent from our homeowners and buy food in the kitchens and.01:37:18.000 --> 01:37:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: Ski awesome terrain. So that's…01:37:22.000 --> 01:37:37.000Stuart Winchester: Let me break down this product real quick because I think it's so good. So the Bash Badge, you pay $159 upfront and then you get $30 lift tickets or $20 half-day lift tickets for the entire season whenever you show up. The Bash Badge, Bash Badge.01:37:37.000 --> 01:37:44.000Stuart Winchester: Plus is $249, has the same deal, but it's sort of a pseudo-season pass, because you get…01:37:44.000 --> 01:38:04.000Stuart Winchester: direct-to-lift, you know, unlimited days from opening day, which is usually around Thanksgiving, through December 18th, and then from March 22nd through the end of the season, which at Smuggs is somewhere between the first and third weekend in April, usually. I don't know if you want to push that at all. But that is an awesome product. I mean, is this something that you want to roll out across the portfolio?01:38:05.000 --> 01:38:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: We're evaluating it. Yeah. All the mountains are different, right? So that's…01:38:06.000 --> 01:38:07.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:38:08.000 --> 01:38:10.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:38:10.000 --> 01:38:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: which may work, something that may work great, and I'm not, this is more generic.01:38:15.000 --> 01:38:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: at Burke may not work at Catamount. You just pulled up Catamount there, right? That's a different user base.01:38:17.000 --> 01:38:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:38:18.000 --> 01:38:19.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:38:21.000 --> 01:38:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: Different demand profile. Right? So.01:38:25.000 --> 01:38:28.000Jonathan Schaefer: These mountains are going to run.01:38:28.000 --> 01:38:42.000Jonathan Schaefer: relatively independently, but also, we want our guests to know what to expect when they go to a Bear Dam Mountain, which is that independence, the quality, the focus on the fundamentals, you know, good snow, um…01:38:30.000 --> 01:38:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:38:40.000 --> 01:38:42.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:38:42.000 --> 01:38:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: and efficient operations. I mean, it's… the weather's ever-changing, so you can't always promise it, but…01:38:47.000 --> 01:38:51.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, you'll certainly get our best effort in any given time.01:38:51.000 --> 01:38:55.000Stuart Winchester: How would you know, John, like, what would be your sign?01:38:55.000 --> 01:38:58.000Stuart Winchester: that you were messing up SMUGS, that you were going in the wrong direction.01:38:58.000 --> 01:39:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: Well, I'm sure I'd hear about it.01:39:01.000 --> 01:39:10.000Stuart Winchester: As a… as a skier, what do you not want smugs to be? Because you're a skier, I mean, you… you know, you've skied every day of your life that…01:39:10.000 --> 01:39:13.000Stuart Winchester: you know, has been… there's been snow on the ground, I believe.01:39:13.000 --> 01:39:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:39:14.000 --> 01:39:16.000Jonathan Schaefer: I, um…01:39:16.000 --> 01:39:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: For me, it's that overwhelming presence of just, you know, you're on a trail and.01:39:22.000 --> 01:39:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: You feel like you're gonna get.01:39:24.000 --> 01:39:30.000Jonathan Schaefer: just overrun, and you're just… you want to go home. I mean, I've had ski days where.01:39:30.000 --> 01:39:32.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:39:32.000 --> 01:39:34.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, for example.01:39:35.000 --> 01:39:38.000Jonathan Schaefer: My wife and I did a trip to a.01:39:38.000 --> 01:39:40.000Jonathan Schaefer: a larger, you know.01:39:40.000 --> 01:39:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: Northern Mountain a couple years ago, and I was invited to an event, and I couldn't get the person who, you know, I get comp tickets, it's just one of the perks, who was there to comp the ticket, and…01:39:47.000 --> 01:39:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:39:52.000 --> 01:40:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: So it's like, oh, I'll go through the ticket line and really experience a day trip, you know, as the general consumer of one of these resorts, you know, which, you know, I'm generally at smaller mountains doing our thing.01:40:03.000 --> 01:40:05.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:04.000 --> 01:40:05.000Jonathan Schaefer: And…01:40:05.000 --> 01:40:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: I think almost 500 bucks of ticket fees later.01:40:09.000 --> 01:40:11.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.01:40:10.000 --> 01:40:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, we're in the middle of an overrun.01:40:15.000 --> 01:40:16.000Jonathan Schaefer: Trail.01:40:16.000 --> 01:40:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:16.000 --> 01:40:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: My wife, who's an advanced intermediate, was just like, can we go home to Berkshire East?01:40:22.000 --> 01:40:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, so.01:40:22.000 --> 01:40:24.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:40:24.000 --> 01:40:33.000Jonathan Schaefer: if I feel like I want to go home right now, as much feels like home to me. I had a lot of great skiing there this winter. I brought my daughters up, and.01:40:26.000 --> 01:40:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:28.000 --> 01:40:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:33.000 --> 01:40:37.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, there's awesome terrain. We're looking at the map here.01:40:37.000 --> 01:40:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: it feels like a western mountain. I mean, it it's big enough that the whoever cut the trails, there's there's grade reversals to uphills to big rolls to.01:40:39.000 --> 01:40:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:47.000 --> 01:40:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, snow-covered trees, and I know it's not always like that, but we just had the best.01:40:52.000 --> 01:40:54.000Jonathan Schaefer: Few weeks of skiing this year.01:40:54.000 --> 01:40:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:54.000 --> 01:40:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: And you can really let it rip. Woods are awesome.01:40:59.000 --> 01:41:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: Great family experience. That's what home feels like. And.01:41:04.000 --> 01:41:11.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, I'm I associate with myself, you know, in in general, with people that appreciate that. And.01:41:10.000 --> 01:41:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:41:11.000 --> 01:41:17.000Jonathan Schaefer: That's we're here to curate this and to grow it, but not ruin it.01:41:17.000 --> 01:41:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: And that's very subjective, right? So we have to run good businesses, and we're never gonna make everybody happy. But I think in the effort we give.01:41:27.000 --> 01:41:29.000Jonathan Schaefer: People will appreciate it.01:41:29.000 --> 01:41:31.000Stuart Winchester: The more…01:41:31.000 --> 01:41:35.000Stuart Winchester: skiing changes in New England, the more…01:41:35.000 --> 01:41:46.000Stuart Winchester: people love what Smuggs is, and I'm looking at the trail map here for those watching on YouTube or StormSkiing.com, and what you see back here is Stowe. Now, I love Stowe. I think it's the best mountain.01:41:46.000 --> 01:41:48.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, me too.01:41:46.000 --> 01:42:04.000Stuart Winchester: in New England. I just love the fall lines, I love the skiing. Vail purchased it, of course, in 2017. Bill Strissel, the former owner, had proposed a gondola from Sterling across, which is much flatter than this, across to Stowe.01:42:04.000 --> 01:42:14.000Stuart Winchester: Is that idea dead? Is that still something you would consider? You can still walk between Stowe and Smugs, of course, but is a potential lift something you're considering?01:42:14.000 --> 01:42:25.000Jonathan Schaefer: Uh, you know, I think we're considering getting back to where we were, which is… I think it would be awesome to skin up Sterling, but they don't allow it, and um…01:42:25.000 --> 01:42:28.000Jonathan Schaefer: come over to smugs and go back and forth.01:42:28.000 --> 01:42:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: we're not in the market for paying for that lift, and I read the reviews online, just as well as everybody else, on what locals thought about it, so… that's not the…01:42:31.000 --> 01:42:32.000Stuart Winchester: Right.01:42:39.000 --> 01:42:43.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, I want to develop a great great relationship with those guys and the Gm. There.01:42:43.000 --> 01:42:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: Started at Mount Snow, and we have a ton of mutual friends. And he's very, very, very well respected, you know, within the Vail organization.01:42:52.000 --> 01:42:54.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so is awesome.01:42:54.000 --> 01:42:56.000Jonathan Schaefer: But, um…01:42:56.000 --> 01:43:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, I think that I have trail run it all summer and fall, and it's a it's a great trail. I was there, and I think it was 1997. Somebody dumped a snow cat into the pond trying to drive across it. I saw the snow cat as a 17 year old or 18 year old.01:42:57.000 --> 01:43:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Mike's a good dude.01:43:01.000 --> 01:43:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:43:04.000 --> 01:43:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:43:08.000 --> 01:43:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.01:43:12.000 --> 01:43:14.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, man.01:43:12.000 --> 01:43:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, um…01:43:15.000 --> 01:43:17.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah.01:43:15.000 --> 01:43:17.000Stuart Winchester: Is it still there?01:43:17.000 --> 01:43:20.000Jonathan Schaefer: No, some other… I think they got out with a scooter.01:43:17.000 --> 01:43:21.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:43:20.000 --> 01:43:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:43:21.000 --> 01:43:39.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you know, I mean, Mike's a great guy, and I skied with Mike in April, and folks don't understand this, and I beat it to death, but unless you're from the region, and I didn't understand it until I moved out here, Northern Vermont is so good. I mean, 322 inches of snow, that's the second snowiest.01:43:39.000 --> 01:44:02.000Stuart Winchester: In the east that Smuggs gets, of course, JP gets a little more, and maybe they get the same. I don't know, people measure things different, but last year I was supposed to take my family to Tahoe in April. I canceled it, went to Stowe and Killington instead, and we got a couple of powder days of Stowe in April. It is really, really good skiing up there, and there's tree skiing more often than not. So, I mean, you've got such a prize up there, and if people have not been up there.01:44:02.000 --> 01:44:08.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, go now so you can watch the evolution. Uh, John, I wanna…01:44:06.000 --> 01:44:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: I'm gonna try to text you a picture here, Stuart. I've got me pounding the Lincoln Gap and I think 2003.01:44:08.000 --> 01:44:10.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:44:14.000 --> 01:44:15.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:44:15.000 --> 01:44:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: But I I grew up skiing up there.01:44:18.000 --> 01:44:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: And the scheme is awesome.01:44:22.000 --> 01:44:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: The, um…01:44:25.000 --> 01:44:33.000Jonathan Schaefer: There's there's nothing like it. And it's it's it's not. You know it. It is Northern Vermont, right? It's not.01:44:31.000 --> 01:44:33.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:44:33.000 --> 01:44:34.000Jonathan Schaefer: Banff.01:44:34.000 --> 01:44:35.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:44:35.000 --> 01:44:40.000Jonathan Schaefer: And it's okay. There's great communities. There's great.01:44:40.000 --> 01:44:48.000Jonathan Schaefer: There's great people. There's a huge legacy of people that love these mountains and care for them. And utilize them.01:44:42.000 --> 01:44:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:44:48.000 --> 01:44:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: So.01:44:50.000 --> 01:44:56.000Jonathan Schaefer: We're just lucky to be the next man up here, and we're fired up to do a good job about it.01:44:55.000 --> 01:45:19.000Stuart Winchester: I'm fired up that you bought it. There was a lot of chatter that Vail may buy it and combine it with Stowe. Again, love Stowe, but I do think that the Northeast in any ski region benefits from having strong independent operators. I'm pulling up Burke's old trail maps for those following along here. So Burke, the trail network's been similar for years and years, but there used to be some more lifts. So here we're going all the way back.01:45:19.000 --> 01:45:27.000Stuart Winchester: 1983, when Burke was sponsored by Camel. Can you imagine? Camel cigarettes, guys.01:45:25.000 --> 01:45:28.000Jonathan Schaefer: One of our ski coaches was a, um…01:45:28.000 --> 01:45:30.000Jonathan Schaefer: A Marlboro man.01:45:29.000 --> 01:45:50.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so you see different lifts here. So you see the Summit lift, which was replaced. Now this is a high-speed quad. And there was another lift over here. So looking at Burke's modern trail map here, John, I believe there's some room for expansion out here. I believe you could probably infill some lifts. So what are your thoughts on Burke now that you've had a year running that guy?01:45:51.000 --> 01:45:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: I think Burke's an awesome mountain.01:45:55.000 --> 01:46:02.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, if we're talking about the trail map, we've got the green section down here in Sherbourne, which is one of the best beginner mountains.01:45:59.000 --> 01:46:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:46:02.000 --> 01:46:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: And that was a little bit of a.01:46:04.000 --> 01:46:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: Surprise for me, because I spent most of my time at Burke on Warren's way.01:46:09.000 --> 01:46:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:46:10.000 --> 01:46:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: facing, and then…01:46:12.000 --> 01:46:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: Big Dipper. I think we raised the first Eastern Cup there the day after the Pats won their first Super Bowl.01:46:18.000 --> 01:46:19.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.01:46:18.000 --> 01:46:20.000Jonathan Schaefer: Okay.01:46:20.000 --> 01:46:25.000Jonathan Schaefer: Which was awesome. Middlebury showed up with no time to inspect, because it was a late night, but it was…01:46:25.000 --> 01:46:28.000Jonathan Schaefer: Lots of energy, um…01:46:28.000 --> 01:46:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: And then the Upper Mountain, and you can kind of see, if you go back up to the Upper Mountain, just how steep… you see where all the black diamonds are in the middle, in the double blacks? That's just a feature of the resort, so…01:46:32.000 --> 01:46:33.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:46:34.000 --> 01:46:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Mm-hmm.01:46:39.000 --> 01:46:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: It's hard to get…01:46:41.000 --> 01:46:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, there's a total lack of green trails from the summit, and that's a priority for us, is increasing that blue access over the next couple of years.01:46:50.000 --> 01:46:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: But also, you know, we've done a ton of snowmaking that work there. I think we…01:46:56.000 --> 01:47:02.000Jonathan Schaefer: We knocked out… we were able to cut 500 hours of snowmaking time.01:47:02.000 --> 01:47:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:47:02.000 --> 01:47:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: Year over year.01:47:04.000 --> 01:47:05.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.01:47:04.000 --> 01:47:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: and open more terrain, far more terrain than the year prior. And so.01:47:07.000 --> 01:47:09.000Stuart Winchester: Amazing.01:47:10.000 --> 01:47:13.000Jonathan Schaefer: We, uh…01:47:14.000 --> 01:47:29.000Jonathan Schaefer: We are doing a lot more work this year. And so last year, it's like the wave on the beach analogy. We were able to throw a big wave up on the beach and we got a ton of stuff done. But this year, it's a lot of the interconnections and sort of like finishing off the work. I'd say we got 80% of the way home last year.01:47:16.000 --> 01:47:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:47:23.000 --> 01:47:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:47:29.000 --> 01:47:30.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:47:29.000 --> 01:47:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: And this year, a few more guns, filling in some holes, moving water around more effectively.01:47:37.000 --> 01:47:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.01:47:40.000 --> 01:47:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: I think people are going to notice maybe even as big a difference as the year prior. Midburg Lodge is getting some updates.01:47:46.000 --> 01:47:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:47:48.000 --> 01:47:49.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, it…01:47:48.000 --> 01:48:15.000Stuart Winchester: How did that translate business-wise, John? You know, Burke had sort of been, it had been in receivership for nine years when you purchased it, and it was part of the whole Jay Peak scandal, and Jay Peak got purchased in 2022 by Pacific Group Resorts, but Burke was still orphaned, and not that there weren't capable folks running it, but the first thing you did was, I think, triple snowmaking capacity. So how did that translate business, skier visits-wise? What can you tell us about last year at Burke and the kind of momentum you were able to establish there?01:47:55.000 --> 01:47:56.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:48:16.000 --> 01:48:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: So I do believe that energy at a resort is a very palpable thing. You can either feel it, or you can't. You know, you've all been places, and it's like, oh, what happened to the restaurant? And it's like, oh, the chef left, and.01:48:27.000 --> 01:48:31.000Jonathan Schaefer: You just know it's over yet.01:48:31.000 --> 01:48:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know the receivership was. It was sort of like slack tide for that mountain for almost a decade, you know, is not really coming or going, and I think our us stepping up and the grand family's commitment to the resort, which is runs really deep.01:48:48.000 --> 01:48:54.000Jonathan Schaefer: was able to bring some of that, inject that energy. And then the next step.01:48:54.000 --> 01:49:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: is, and I've been doing the Ted Lasso analogies with you for years, but it's like getting people, not only the resort staff, but the guests to believe.01:49:04.000 --> 01:49:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, that it is a great mountain. There's phenomenal glades. You know, I… I was stuck on Warren's Way half my life whenever I'd be there, but, you know, so it was a revelation what the glades were like. Um…01:49:15.000 --> 01:49:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: in the… in the acquisition period, and then skiing them last year. It's a… it's a great mountain. I don't think it's ever really had its chance. I think we're the seventh or eighth ownership group. That thing is like a…01:49:27.000 --> 01:49:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: a ship without a rock, without a lighthouse that ships keep running into, and we're gonna try to avoid being the next ship that breaks apart on those rocks right there. But I think there's a really thoughtful way to do it.01:49:41.000 --> 01:49:54.000Jonathan Schaefer: quite frankly, it's shocking how close it is to people. You know, I don't think people realize that it's really not that much further from Boston than a Mount Snow or a Killington. Obviously, it doesn't have the scale of those resorts. Um…01:49:54.000 --> 01:49:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: But it does have that sense of community.01:49:57.000 --> 01:50:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: it's a great mountain, it's a beautiful hotel, and… and the town itself is full of wonderful restaurants, largely supported by Kingdom Trails and skiers, you know, so it's a very adventurous… we did a kickoff party there, and…01:50:10.000 --> 01:50:11.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, there's…01:50:11.000 --> 01:50:13.000Jonathan Schaefer: Eight Olympians.01:50:13.000 --> 01:50:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, at the kickoff party that live in and around that town.01:50:18.000 --> 01:50:19.000Stuart Winchester: Incredible.01:50:18.000 --> 01:50:31.000Jonathan Schaefer: And it attracts a really diverse set of outdoor adventurers, and it's a… it's a throwback community. And uh… I think as our guests start to discover it, you know, in the wintertime, I think a lot of people discovered it for KT.01:50:31.000 --> 01:50:33.000Jonathan Schaefer: Which we're also doing a lot of work.01:50:33.000 --> 01:50:40.000Jonathan Schaefer: With to integrate with Kingdom trails, and we're the largest single owner of Kingdom trails, and so it's.01:50:40.000 --> 01:50:44.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, people start to feel that energy. And.01:50:44.000 --> 01:50:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: Again, we're here to work it and to build it and, you know, do our best to caretake it.01:50:50.000 --> 01:51:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it looks far north, John, but it's right off I-91, and I agree, there's some of the best glades in New England. Let's talk quickly about Berkshire East, where you've teased an expansion for several years, I believe, right over in this area.01:51:02.000 --> 01:51:05.000Jonathan Schaefer: We're going on a decade, I think.01:51:04.000 --> 01:51:09.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. Is it right over here? Am I pointing to the right place? Farlookers right on the trail map?01:51:05.000 --> 01:51:06.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:51:09.000 --> 01:51:13.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um, it goes from the wind turbine.01:51:12.000 --> 01:51:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:51:14.000 --> 01:51:17.000Jonathan Schaefer: Where the thunder writing is, somewhere right in there.01:51:14.000 --> 01:51:15.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:51:16.000 --> 01:51:18.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. Yeah.01:51:17.000 --> 01:51:26.000Jonathan Schaefer: in between Mohawk and Thunder down over towards those fields at the lower left. I would say it's not well represented on on this map. But.01:51:25.000 --> 01:51:32.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so there's more terrain. Is it basically in here, or is it over on this side?01:51:30.000 --> 01:51:35.000Jonathan Schaefer: It's thunder is sort of like the off ramp for it. So it's the return.01:51:34.000 --> 01:51:38.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, so you would go into Thunder off the back of the mountain?01:51:37.000 --> 01:51:42.000Jonathan Schaefer: You would go off of… you see where Rogers World is? The lift would go through Rogers World.01:51:39.000 --> 01:51:41.000Stuart Winchester: Here.01:51:41.000 --> 01:51:42.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:51:42.000 --> 01:51:43.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:51:44.000 --> 01:51:49.000Jonathan Schaefer: Through to the wind turbine, and there'd be 3 or 4 trails back there, and…01:51:46.000 --> 01:51:47.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:51:49.000 --> 01:51:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: It hasn't quite launched yet.01:51:49.000 --> 01:51:51.000Stuart Winchester: Thank you.01:51:52.000 --> 01:52:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: But again, you know, it's easy to cut this stuff, it's easy to build it, it's harder to actually operate it and take care of it, so we keep optimizing our resort, you know, and the snowmaking there, and then…01:52:04.000 --> 01:52:08.000Jonathan Schaefer: Hopefully, we'll get to a point here where that's doable again. So.01:52:08.000 --> 01:52:23.000Stuart Winchester: And you took out a triple chair that was based this summer right here. That was a used lift from Ski Rio New Mexico. I think the plan was to put it over here. I don't know, it looks like you could probably serve it with the existing lifts, but any thoughts on lifts or not as part of the expansion?01:52:13.000 --> 01:52:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:52:24.000 --> 01:52:26.000Jonathan Schaefer: It would require a lift, yeah.01:52:25.000 --> 01:52:27.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. Okay.01:52:26.000 --> 01:52:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: So.01:52:27.000 --> 01:52:45.000Stuart Winchester: But not… it doesn't sound like, uh, like you can put a timeline on it, and last time you were on, you also talked about a potential expansion at Catamount. Again, I'm looking at the trail map. Uh, if you look at the far right side of the trail map, I believe that's where the potential expansion was. Any thoughts on… on that, or are you pretty happy with Catamount as it is?01:52:31.000 --> 01:52:32.000Jonathan Schaefer: No.01:52:45.000 --> 01:52:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: We are, uh…01:52:48.000 --> 01:53:03.000Jonathan Schaefer: I would say that we're never complacent, right? So the idea of happy is very temporal and focused on what's going on. I think at all these mountains, we're focused on snowmaking. Folks will see some snowmaking upgrades at all the resorts.01:52:54.000 --> 01:52:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:53:03.000 --> 01:53:06.000Jonathan Schaefer: So in terms of lift layouts, you know it's.01:53:06.000 --> 01:53:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: Those are private landowners that you happen to point out up there, so they may or may not be the right, you know, people to point your mouse at.01:53:10.000 --> 01:53:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:53:14.000 --> 01:53:15.000Stuart Winchester: Right.01:53:15.000 --> 01:53:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: it's all on the table, right? And it's just a matter. Now my job is to really, you know, look at four resorts and what their needs are.01:53:16.000 --> 01:53:18.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:53:23.000 --> 01:53:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:53:24.000 --> 01:53:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: and advance the ones that make the most sense.01:53:27.000 --> 01:53:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: from resort to resort to resort, and categorize those. And a lot of what we've been doing this year, I mean, this conversation has been very appropriately anchored in, um, sort of asset upgrades.01:53:40.000 --> 01:53:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: But I'm trying to build an organization that can really thoughtfully run this.01:53:45.000 --> 01:53:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: these resorts and do a good job with it and build the right team.01:53:50.000 --> 01:53:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so a lot of the governance and organizational work that we've done this year will really help support those.01:53:57.000 --> 01:54:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: going forward into future years. So.01:53:58.000 --> 01:54:16.000Stuart Winchester: So talk a little about that. Actually leave us with that today, John, because I just find the Schaefer family story so compelling. You know, Roy drove his station wagon out from Michigan full of kids and just, you know, bought this junky mountain and fixed it up, you know, just out there buying scrap from all over the country.01:54:09.000 --> 01:54:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: Okay.01:54:16.000 --> 01:54:23.000Stuart Winchester: And, uh, then handed it off to you and your brother, who modernized it. And, and you've, you've built, uh…01:54:23.000 --> 01:54:30.000Stuart Winchester: you know, you've built now this four-mountain portfolio, so a couple elements to that is, number one, if I have this right.01:54:30.000 --> 01:54:43.000Stuart Winchester: you actually sold Catamount Berkshires to Bearden, so you're no longer the owner, you're an employee, probably for the first time, really, in your life, you know, and not part of a… necessarily a family-owned thing.01:54:38.000 --> 01:54:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: Mm-hmm.01:54:41.000 --> 01:54:44.000Jonathan Schaefer: Outside is an ice cream.01:54:43.000 --> 01:54:47.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so what's that transition been like, I guess?01:54:47.000 --> 01:54:56.000Stuart Winchester: emotionally, and how do you handle that professionally? Like, going from, you know, your dad out there with a hammer, you know.01:54:56.000 --> 01:55:05.000Stuart Winchester: nailing up some snow gun to, uh, I know that's not how you put up a snow gun, but, um, but to, you know, running a professional organization that oversees four mountains in three states.01:54:59.000 --> 01:55:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:55:06.000 --> 01:55:26.000Jonathan Schaefer: Evolve or die, right? So I couldn't be more fired up about it. There's Ken Graham and I had the opportunity to build five years of trust. We worked on Burke for four or five years. And that could be, you know, five calls a week or one call every five months. You know, it's hard to say, but we really stuck it out together.01:55:07.000 --> 01:55:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:55:14.000 --> 01:55:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:55:22.000 --> 01:55:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:55:26.000 --> 01:55:43.000Jonathan Schaefer: and had a good understanding of of who we were as people and as families. You know their their dad's a Michigan family, too. They are a Michigan family. The grandfather was a ecologist working for the University of Michigan. So it's a lot of shared family history here. Ski racing.01:55:40.000 --> 01:55:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:55:43.000 --> 01:55:58.000Jonathan Schaefer: And that's important when you do this stuff because these, you're in it for the long haul. You know, you jump into rapids with somebody and you want to know what they're about. And so we had that opportunity and it wasn't as spontaneous as it may have seen on the outside.01:55:58.000 --> 01:56:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:55:59.000 --> 01:56:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: So…01:56:00.000 --> 01:56:05.000Jonathan Schaefer: There's there's also pieces of the organization that I always wanted to bring.01:56:05.000 --> 01:56:11.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, I wrote my Berkshire operator manual in 2015, and it was clunky, and…01:56:11.000 --> 01:56:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:56:12.000 -->

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The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is made in the USA. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.About CaberfaeOwned by: The Meyer FamilyYear founded: 1937Pass affiliations:* Ikon Pass: 2 days, blackouts* Freedom Pass: 3 days, no blackouts Base elevation: 1,076 feetSummit elevation: 1,561 feetVertical drop: 485 feetSkiable Acres: 200Average annual snowfall: 120 inchesLift count: 5 (1 fixed-grip quad, 3 triples, 1 carpet – view Lift Blog's inventory of Caberfae's lift fleet)The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, then click on any text block to teleport to the associated point in the video; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO; also since Tim and Pete were on one screen, the transcript does not differentiate between them).Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the storm. I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. Today is Thursday, September 17th, 2026, and we are going to mix things up a little bit today. Instead of starting with the takes, we are starting with the guests, and I have some great guests today.00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:40.000Stuart Winchester: They are the general managers of Cabrifay Peaks, Michigan, with over 200 acres of terrain served by 4 chairlifts across 3 peaks, with a 485-foot vertical drop.00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:44.000Stuart Winchester: Cabar Fay is one of the largest ski areas in Michigan's Lower Penins.00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:49.000Stuart Winchester: The ski area averaged 120 inches of lake effect snowfall per winter.00:22:49.000 --> 00:23:06.000Stuart Winchester: Their family has operated Cabaret since 1980. They are co-general managers, with Tim Meyer on the right, handling everything on the mountain, and Pete Meyer on the left, taking care of everything off. Tim and Pete, welcome to the storm. I'm always hyped to talk Cabaret. How are you guys doing today?00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:11.000Pete Meyer: Good. We're doing awesome. Thanks for having us. Yeah.00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and trigger warning for any Sparties or Buckeyes out there who want to go to the video version on stormskiing.com or YouTube. Me and Tim are both proudly rocking our Wolverines gear. This is a shirt I wore to the maze out when Michigan blasted Oklahoma in the big house this past weekend. So we're feeling.00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:31.000Stuart Winchester: Although I understand Tim's also got a little Sparty, side loyalty.00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:35.000Pete Meyer: Yes, my children, both my sons are Spartans, so that's…00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, as soon as my daughter got into college, I bought all the gear for her place. So, you know, there's tons going on at Cabaret, and I want to start…00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:36.000Pete Meyer: It.00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:54.000Stuart Winchester: with this coming expansion, and you, you announced this a while ago, and I'm gonna share my screen here so that everyone can see, uh, see this as we talk through it.00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:13.000Stuart Winchester: And this is where I am never quite as fast as I want to be. Uh, but… okay. So, here is the Cabra Fay trail map. This is the one I took off your website this morning, so it's the most current that I have. Uh, and last time I talked to Tim in, I think, 2021, when you came on the podcast.00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:15.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it…00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:31.000Stuart Winchester: This East Peak triple chair was still still in a theory phase and you hadn't built yet. Now that's in place and we'll talk about that in a minute and how that's gone. But talk to us about the Green Mountain triple chair, what we're getting and why you're building it.00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:34.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, so, um…00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:40.000Pete Meyer: I'm going to start with why, because it's kind of an interesting story, you know.00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:51.000Pete Meyer: we… when we put in the East Peak lift, we took out the shelter chairlift, the double. They started in almost the same place, but the shelter… the shelter lift.00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:54.000Pete Meyer: let off about halfway up the hill.00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:04.000Pete Meyer: And because we we have our dads before us and then and then we also have continued to develop the terrain.00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:13.000Pete Meyer: the terrain changes and the flow changes. And what happened over time, like, especially over the last.00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:16.000Pete Meyer: 25 years or so.00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:23.000Pete Meyer: we kept adding on to Smiling Irishman and making it wider and wider and wider, and it got busier and busier and busier, so…00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:29.000Pete Meyer: The shelter chairlift was essentially letting off these new skiers.00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:33.000Pete Meyer: in the middle of flowing traffic. And…00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.000Pete Meyer: We thought when we put in the East Peak lift.00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:41.000Pete Meyer: Now we're gonna take these lower end skiers to the top.00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:55.000Pete Meyer: we're going to give them a longer run, and the new part we're giving them is actually the easier half. They're already negotiating the tougher half, the steeper half, and the narrower half. If we add the upper half, it's easier, it's wider, it should be fine.00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:06.000Pete Meyer: And that's what we thought. And so we put it in and then but then what we found and this is the this is the piece that you learn as you go.00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.000Pete Meyer: is…00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:15.000Pete Meyer: The new skiers accepted being let off at the lower level, and having to merge into traffic, because.00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:32.000Pete Meyer: They didn't really know any different and that it was the psychological factor. Well, I'm only halfway up the mountain. I can, I can do this. When we took them up to the top, you know, that East Peak lift actually feels like a out, it almost feels like an out West lift. It has.00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:43.000Pete Meyer: like, three rises, you know? So you ride… you go up over a break, and then you… and then you go again for a while, and then up over another break, and then you're coming into the top, and you… you know, you're above…00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:47.000Pete Meyer: Tree line, basically, and you can see the horizon, and it just…00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:51.000Pete Meyer: would kind of psych out that new skier, you know, they would just, they would.00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:55.000Pete Meyer: They'd get up there and kind of freeze and panic, and…00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:06.000Pete Meyer: say, there's no way I'm gonna go down, you know, I'm not gonna go down that hill. And, uh, so we found our ski patrol having to give a lot of lessons just to get people down the hill, and…00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:13.000Pete Meyer: And, um, and so we, we just, we kind of knew that we had a, you know, a little bit of an issue that we had to work through.00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:21.000Pete Meyer: And so Pete and I would be talking, you know, and I would say, I think I have it all figured out, you know, I'm saying, um…00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:34.000Pete Meyer: we just need to give them… make sure that all the… every single new skier gets a lesson, and we get them ready to… you know, we get them ready to go. And a lot of the… a lot of this is the school groups, you know, the different groups, and we do offer lessons.00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:40.000Pete Meyer: to everybody, but sometimes they don't take them, and, you know, they slide, they slide through, and…00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.000Pete Meyer: And so.00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:50.000Pete Meyer: Pete and I were having a meeting on Green Mountain with our ski patrol director, Katie, and Dennis, one of our top instructors.00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:59.000Pete Meyer: And we think we have it all figured out. You know, we're just we just need to put them through a lesson and then and then problem solved.00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:00.000Pete Meyer: And…00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:12.000Pete Meyer: And Dennis, our ski instructor, was like, almost grabbed right onto my jacket. He's like, you don't understand. I can't get them ready for East Peak on this.00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:23.000Pete Meyer: we need something in between, and I… and… and so it's like, oh, oh, well, what do you need, Dennis? And he pointed up at the Green Mountain, and he said, we need that.00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:14.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:41.000Pete Meyer: And I… I said, well, I think we have a plan for that on a cocktail napkin somewhere. We could go look at that again. So basically, what… what hap… what it was is we… we had always had this. We… we actually had lift lines staked out, and we hadn't been looking at doing this. We just thought it would be…00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:51.000Pete Meyer: the last thing that we do. We thought we would… we would continue to develop into the… into the backcountry area, and then do the Green Mountain expansion later.00:28:51.000 --> 00:29:06.000Pete Meyer: But what the… what the customer told us was, no, you need the Green Mountain expansion now. So that's the why and the how, that all of a sudden that thing kind of appeared out of nowhere, and why it was a two…00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:14.000Pete Meyer: why it's a two-year construction, because there's nothing over there. No services. Um, so we've had… we had to…00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:18.000Pete Meyer: You know, we had to do the final planning kind of fast.00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:30.000Pete Meyer: so we wanted to take 2 years to do it. Um, and so what are you getting? You're getting about 135 vertical feet, a brand new Doppelmayr triple.00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:38.000Pete Meyer: uh, that's just like East Peak and just like Vista, so it's gonna show this, you know, it's gonna take the new skier, um.00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:43.000Pete Meyer: Uh, and get them going on a lift that's similar to what we have throughout the area.00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:55.000Pete Meyer: it runs a little bit slower, has a bigger chair spacing, so it's going to be a little bit easier to load and unload. And when it's all built out, we should have 4 or 5.00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:00.000Pete Meyer: really, uh, easy trails, but with character. I mean, these aren't just…00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:14.000Pete Meyer: you know, a football field at 10 degrees that doesn't have any character. These are, you know, tree-lined, um, interesting slopes. Uh, the lift itself actually goes through the woods.00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:20.000Pete Meyer: and part of the way, and it's just a really neat development. So we think that.00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:32.000Pete Meyer: You know, even though it's not big vertical, it lifts about a thousand feet long. The terrain has really good character and we think it's going to be really popular.00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:47.000Stuart Winchester: I've always loved that about Cabaret. My favorite section of Cabaret for the folks who are watching is this sort of lower section where all the trails split off. And I've always found it a little confusing and fun. And I like confusing. I like it. I feel like it makes ski areas feel bigger than they are.00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:59.000Stuart Winchester: I want to zoom out a little bit and connect this expansion to some larger ski industry narratives, because the narrative that won't die is that the big corporate consolidation and big passes are killing the independents.00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:15.000Stuart Winchester: here I'm looking at Cabra Fay, family-owned for the last 46 years, and in 2016, you put in a brand new triple chair right here on North Peak. In 2022, you put in the brand new East Peak triple chair, and then you're putting in this brand new Green Mountain triple chair next year, at least that's the plan. I mean…00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:31.000Stuart Winchester: So you're affording three new chairlifts. Uh, you know, Monarch was willing to tell me out in Colorado. Yeah, we, and we paid cash for them. I don't know if you, if you have, you know, theories on debt. I know a lot of scare operators like Platykill in New York, like to stay out of debt, but, but how did Cab.00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:40.000Stuart Winchester: How is Calgary managing all these capital upgrades, and what does it say, do you think, about independents competing in 2026?00:31:41.000 --> 00:32:05.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, I don't have access to the checkbook, so you have to let me answer that one. No, that's a great question, Stu. And Tim kind of hit on this on his first podcast with you, but when Tim and I got moved back here in 2001, we had what I call like soul crushing debt. You know, it was just crippling, like every dollar we made had to go and service the debt.00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:08.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we didn't have…00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:18.000Pete Meyer: really any money to even make capital improvements or to do much of anything. So our our main mission early on was try to try to get out of debt and get out of that hole.00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:35.000Pete Meyer: And, you know, our dad's done a nice job developing and building, and they got it out of bankruptcy. So when you get something out of bankruptcy, they've already cut every corner and done all kinds of deferred maintenance, pushed it all off. So we had quite a bit to deal with, and it was a long…00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:36.000Pete Meyer: Um…00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:46.000Pete Meyer: the long slugfest. Tim and I call those the dark days, you know, about 10 years of just really grinding. And then, finally, right, you know.00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:58.000Pete Meyer: about 2015, we were able to, uh, to get out of debt, and then… and then we started to, um, really put capital back into it, and that's why we decided on… on…00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:02.000Pete Meyer: Uh, putting in some new chairlifts, and yes, we have not gone back into debt since.00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:14.000Stuart Winchester: That's fantastic, and as you think to the future, okay, you have this North Peak quad chair, built in, I think, 92, and then you have the South Peak triple, which I think early 80s lift, it's a riblet, which…00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:29.000Stuart Winchester: As you know, is out of business now. I think this one's a SeaTac. So, I don't know if when, you know, you give a really good summary, Tim, of how East Peak changed traffic around the mountain. Uh, I, I've seen a, there's a ton of comments. I was just scrolling through, through Lyft blog for the folks watching.00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:41.000Stuart Winchester: to show Peter's excellent pictures of that lift. And the Cabaret page on there has a ton of comments, and I'm sure you've seen them. So, there's a lot of wondering, it seems, among skiers.00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:44.000Stuart Winchester: Why the quad is still here, because it…00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:57.000Stuart Winchester: they don't seem to think it runs a lot, and they think the triple does the job. Is there any thought of moving the quad, or do you really need 7 seats here? Or, just thinking long-term, what does the lift distribution look like across Cabaret Fay as you look at this map?00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:13.000Pete Meyer: Well, I think that we do need the quad on the busiest days, right? Otherwise, the reason we put the Vista Triple in there is the lines on the quad used to get so long. And it was like, that's the artery. I mean, you know, more people.00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:17.000Pete Meyer: go through the North Peak complex.00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:34.000Pete Meyer: every day than than the others, you know, because it's the middle. And so it's you go through there on your way to and from South Peak, and a lot of people just ski there because it's really really good inter advanced, intermediate and intermediate type terrain, and even some advanced beginner terrain. So it.00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:43.000Pete Meyer: It services a wide range of abilities. So I think you want to have the two lifts.00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:45.000Pete Meyer: Um…00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:58.000Pete Meyer: I think ultimately, though, we want to have more places for people to go, more pods of skiing, so that actually you do run the quad less and less, but you have it there so that on the really busy days.00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:14.000Pete Meyer: you can turn it on and have, you know, a lift that doesn't have a line that somebody can sit on and ride up. But, um, I don't know if that answers the question. Yeah, right now, Stu, we run it 3 days a week, Friday, Saturdays, and Sundays, the busier days, and so…00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:24.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we don't run it, uh, Monday through Thursday, just because it's a redundant lift, and we don't need the uphill capacity, um, is… is why people say it's not running some of the time.00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I guess what I was getting at is, is there a world where you move the quad over here to serve some of this backcountry terrain and in the top of Green Mountain? As it's, as there's kind of open space on the trail map and, and knowing Gary Milken, how he designs maps, he sometimes leaves that space.00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:57.000Stuart Winchester: for expansion. So, so what's the thought around, you know, and you alluded to it earlier when you were thinking about a lift for backcountry, and Tim, you had mentioned even maybe reviving those halls. I don't know if that's still a possibility. I don't know if they're still sitting at the bottom of the mountain here, but what's the thought on.00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:02.000Stuart Winchester: potential expansion over in this area or lifts in this area long term.00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:17.000Pete Meyer: I think that would be the next frontier. So, somewhere in the bottom… because you've skied here, Stu, you know if you go through the backcountry, you run out of gas, and then you have… and then you have to walk, and that's why we call it backcountry, because it's a…00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:27.000Pete Meyer: Because it's a tearful experience for many people coming out of there in the flats. And so somewhere down in that basin.00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:40.000Pete Meyer: there could, there could be a lift someday that goes up to east of the top of East Peak. And Stu, what Tim had alluded to earlier in his first answer is that that was our original plan, so that would have been.00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:58.000Pete Meyer: Uh, that was the plan to be our next chairlift, was to service that area. But due to the reaction and the response of our skiers, you know, we deviated and focused on… and moved to Green Mountain. Um, and, you know, one thing we found is that transition from the magic carpet, right there on the trail map, you can see, to the East Peak chair.00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:15.000Pete Meyer: was just too much for most of our skiers. And not only were we not doing Cabaret any favors, but we're not doing the industry any favors. You know, it's just, it was asking them to do too much, too big of a, make too much of a jump. So by putting in this East Peak.00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:03.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:30.000Pete Meyer: chair, and then we'll have all green runs that'll all be, um, varying degrees of difficulty of a green run, but all of them will be in between the Magic Carpet slope and the Smiling Irishman slope, so it'll be a really nice.00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:43.000Pete Meyer: transition, and quite frankly, we think a lot of school groups and a lot of skiers are going to come out, um, and never get off that chair, and stay on Green Mountain all day, and have a wildly successful day, and want to return, um, to not only Cabaret Fay, but to other ski.00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:48.000Stuart Winchester: I love it, and I can confidently say, because I ski all over, uh, that Cabaret is now…00:37:48.000 --> 00:38:04.000Stuart Winchester: And, and especially once you put in this new lift, it's one of the most modern up to date ski areas in the entire region. And, and that wasn't always true. When I first skied at Cabaret in the nineties, it was a lot of haul double chairs. I mean, these, these guys were over here, the, the quad and the, and the triple, but.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:11.000Stuart Winchester: that, that throwback feel to it. And I know, Tim, when you were on last time, uh, you, you talked, you lamented a little bit.00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:23.000Stuart Winchester: getting rid of the last rope toe for the carpet, and just sort of the emotion of it, even though you knew it was logically the right thing. What if you could bring back a little throwback by putting a little rope toe right here to bring people out of the backcountry?00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:27.000Pete Meyer: Well, you know, it's funny, I…00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:36.000Pete Meyer: I was kind of slow to warm up to getting rid of that rope toe. I guess, you know, I always had that old school…00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:52.000Pete Meyer: you know, I learned on a rope toe, my kids learned on a rope toe, your kids are going to learn on a rope toe, which is just backwards thinking, right, for a for a ski area manager to have that kind of thought process. I'm not sure. I know where you're going. I mean, no one knows what the future holds.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:52.000 --> 00:39:09.000Pete Meyer: I do see ski areas having a lot of success with train parks with fast tows that service them. Again, another cocktail napkin plan that we have that we're not going to get into in this interview is something like that on our property down the road.00:38:58.000 --> 00:38:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:16.000Pete Meyer: Um, so there, you know, I could see that kind of a thing, but, um…00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:26.000Pete Meyer: And… but I think… I don't know if we would ever want to put a surface tow out of the backcountry area unless, for some reason, we weren't going to lift serve it.00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:27.000Stuart Winchester: Got it.00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:31.000Pete Meyer: But, you know, I guess, you know, no one knows for sure.00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:37.000Pete Meyer: Um, but I wanna… I wanna back up on the Green Mountain expansion a little bit, if… if you'll let me.00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.000Stuart Winchester: Sure.00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, do it. Let's do it.00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:44.000Pete Meyer: When we were at the Midwest, uh, show this year, there was a, there was a fireside chat, and we were talking about.00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:54.000Pete Meyer: We're talking about, you know, turning first-time skiers into second-time skiers, and making the experience the best it can be.00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:06.000Pete Meyer: And so that we have… we have success in that arena. And the Green Mountain… the Green Mountain is… is really a missing piece, because you're looking at our trail map, and you see how the parking lot is laid out.00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:07.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:12.000Pete Meyer: Um, so if you're, you know, trying to make it as easy as possible for somebody who's never skied before.00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:17.000Pete Meyer: You can park on pavement right in front of our ticket office.00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:24.000Pete Meyer: Get out of your car, walk a short distance on heated sidewalks to the ticket office.00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:36.000Pete Meyer: Get… pay for everything you need. Pay for your skis, pay for your ticket, pay for your rentals, pay for your lesson, and then walk up to the… walk up to the, um…00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:37.000Pete Meyer: Rental.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:52.000Pete Meyer: In your, in your regular boots, so it's easy walking, go inside, take your stuff off, take your boots off, get your boots, get your skis and come and then, and then secure your lesson at the end and then walk out the door.00:40:52.000 --> 00:41:09.000Pete Meyer: And you're 30, you know, you're 30 feet from where the ski school meets and you're right at the bottom of the conveyor. So it's really easy to start out and we can get you going on the conveyor. We can virtually get anybody that can stand up on skis or snowboard up to the top.00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:13.000Pete Meyer: And then put, you know, all their energy into getting them down the hill.00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:28.000Pete Meyer: And then once you outgrow that, you just get off the conveyor and you ski down a little slope right onto the East Peak lift. Or, I'm sorry, onto the Green Mountain lift. So now you're right there, and you have this real easy area.00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:37.000Pete Meyer: to learn to ski, and then when you, when you're ready, you just ski down, just ski down the hill to the east peak lift. So the, the flow.00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:42.000Pete Meyer: for that never ever in the in the ah, the the.00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:51.000Pete Meyer: possibility of getting them to come a second and third and fourth time is really real, and I think… I think we're in, like, a new stratosphere for getting…00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:59.000Pete Meyer: you know, getting people, uh, skiing. And then as it flows, you know, the next step, the next place to ski is East Peak.00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:10.000Pete Meyer: And then as you get a little more daring, you work your way into the North Peak complex, and then eventually over to South Peak. So the flow is really natural, and I think it's going to work out extremely well.00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it's like a mini, uh, Copper Mountain. I know you're a Winter Park guy, but it, you know, the, the, the viability… You know what, the exciting thing, I think, for skiers who are not novices, who know Cabaret Faye well.00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.000Pete Meyer: Yeah.00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:38.000Stuart Winchester: starts to creep back into old Caber Fay. And, and when we've talked a while ago, Tim, I, I didn't have a good perspective, but some new maps have popped up on ski map.org, which is my go to for old trail maps. And this one I think shows the old terrain really well. So here's the road looping around, here's the parking lot.00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:47.000Stuart Winchester: And then here's all the terrain. And so I… Google Earth also makes it really easy. So as I go here…00:42:47.000 --> 00:43:02.000Stuart Winchester: I am, for those who are watching, I am zooming in on… so this is what you were talking about, you kind of just park on pavement, you get out here, for those watching on YouTube or StormSkiing.com, the carpet's right around here, and then this will be green, is that right?00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:07.000Pete Meyer: No, if you go, if you, if you go back to that old, old trail map, like you can see right to there, there's a.00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:14.000Pete Meyer: A rope toe — there's two rope toes right there, right up that line, top of that peak. There was two rope toes.00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:12.000Stuart Winchester: Right there? Okay.00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:13.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:19.000Pete Meyer: Uh, heading up that way, and another rope tow coming out at 90 degrees from… from the top.00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:37.000Pete Meyer: And that shack still is up there to this day. It's a two-story tow shack where we had three different rope tows coming in. So it's going to come right up to the top of that. And that area was always called practice area. That was the old name of it. So if you look at old trail maps, you'll see that word practice area.00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.000Stuart Winchester: That's cool.00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:41.000Pete Meyer: It's a great name for a learn to ski area.00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, here's another map, the 1971 map has it as practice area. Okay, so I was assuming that you were digging that up, but I guess you're taking earth from there for the other… is that where you took it for East Peak? Is that what this big sandpit is?00:43:53.000 --> 00:44:07.000Pete Meyer: Oh, that's more of the West Ridge area out into that area. So we're actually off to the left. It's all still green. Up into there, yeah, so it'll be a nice natural hilltop with big mature trees, tree line runs. It's gonna be really, it's gonna be really nice.00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:02.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:18.000Stuart Winchester: So as you… so you can see, for those watching, this is old cab buffet. These are… this is all abandoned, right? I… do you still own this? I mean, it… because once you put the lift up here.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:37.000Stuart Winchester: It seems like it could potentially open some of this backside terrain. I know people would love that. It also makes you very big. I don't know if that's on your radar as Cabaret continues to grow and succeed, but what are the thoughts on this really cool abandoned terrain that you have back here? And Tim, I know we talked about this a few years ago, but I also know that thoughts evolve over time.00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:44.000Pete Meyer: So we do still own all of that. So that area you're looking at, we do own it.00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:55.000Pete Meyer: I think that we don't have any plans to go back into that area at this time, but you never know.00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:04.000Pete Meyer: Going back, though, a little bit, we don't want to get too far into the weeds. Unless you want to get into the weeds, we can go. Um, I brought my machete, so we can…00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:06.000Stuart Winchester: I live in the weeds, man, that's, uh, my…00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:22.000Pete Meyer: we can do what we need to do. But when… way back, going way back to 1982, 83, when South Peak opened, you know, South Peak was redeveloped, all that… a lot of that terrain was still running back then. We were riding T-bars and rope tows on the North Ridge, and West Ridge was alive, and.00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:21.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:31.000Pete Meyer: The practice area tow was still running. So I remember that stuff, you know, as a kid, all happening. And when South Peak was built.00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:43.000Pete Meyer: it was so much bigger than all that, you know, vertical-wise. It was, like, twice, you know, twice the vertical, um, real snowmaking, real grooming.00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:56.000Pete Meyer: people just abandoned the back… the back hills. They just went… they left that. They left that area, and they went to Salt Peak. And that's really why it all closed, is people just stopped going back there. It just wasn't as good. So…00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:46.000Stuart Winchester: Or did they?00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:00.000Pete Meyer: I often think maybe it just is better to be a memory.00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:05.000Pete Meyer: But but who knows? You know, down the road it could be what it could be.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think between opening the backcountry and that, uh, the Green Mountain expansion, I think you excited some folks. Alright, that, that's, uh, that's, that's all really cool. I appreciate you taking me inside that. Let's talk passes now, and I'm.00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.000Stuart Winchester: the screen share here. So, uh…00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:36.000Stuart Winchester: Cabrefe joined IndyPass as an inaugural member in 2019, and has been on that pass every season since, for the 2026-27 season. Cabrefe has, and I'm just laying this out for the listeners, uh, Cabrefe has departed the IndyPass and has joined.00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:51.000Stuart Winchester: The full icon pass, uh, on their two day tier, which is only on the full icon pass, not on the icon base, there's no access, and there's also holiday blackout, so the only mountains that are holiday blacked out on the full icon are the, the two day mountains, of which.00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:55.000Stuart Winchester: Cabaret is now one. So, so talk us through.00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:03.000Stuart Winchester: your experience with IndiePass and the decision, ultimately, to leave that partnership and to join up with ICON.00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:09.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, sure, Stu, we have a feeling this might be a topic of conversation today, so…00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:11.000Pete Meyer: So we.00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:11.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:22.000Pete Meyer: There's a lot of layers to this answer, and this decision was not made quickly or lightly, and a lot of analysis and discussion went into it.00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:37.000Pete Meyer: To be quite honest, we were… we've been frustrated with the IndyPass a little bit for a couple years, and we kind of… we kind of laid out a bunch of, um, the pros and cons list, and the cons list was a lot longer than the pros, and so we… we ultimately kind of came to this decision to exit, and um…00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:53.000Pete Meyer: We're going to talk about — I'll talk about a couple of those reasons now. But before I do, I think it's important to provide some history and some context with Cadbury and IndyPass. So as you mentioned, Indy launched in 2019. We were an early adopter. We had some great conversations with Doug Fish that summer.00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:10.000Pete Meyer: Doug worked really hard to get this pass going. We really enjoyed our conversations. He kind of could answer the questions that nobody could answer. He knew things that nobody else knew. And I still remember to this day, I'm like, Doug, how do you know all this? And he's like in his raspy voice.00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:21.000Pete Meyer: I just know, you know, so it's like, it was kind of cool. So we had confidence that, uh, that he could implement this pass and make it successful, um, because he knew what it took. So we…00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:26.000Stuart Winchester: I'm sorry to interrupt. I may have been the first ever Cabaret Redemption on the Indie Pass since November 2019.00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:25.000Pete Meyer: You know what? That's this.00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:30.000Pete Meyer: It wasn't, it was December 5th, 2019.00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. It…00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:39.000Pete Meyer: So, I was gonna get into that in a little bit, but now I'll hit on that. So then, um, in digging through all these redemptions, which I was gonna get into.00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, okay, go ahead.00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:40.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Sorry, I spoiled it.00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:56.000Pete Meyer: And pouring this data, I was like, Stuart Winchester, you were redemption number one for us. I don't know if you knew that. And I remember it to this day because I never heard your name. I never heard of your podcast. I don't even know if you had it going then.00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:42.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:49.000Stuart Winchester: Wow, that's cool.00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yah.00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:59.000Stuart Winchester: It launched, uh, that October, so it was brand new. Mm-hmm.00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.000Pete Meyer: That October? Okay.00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:14.000Pete Meyer: So the… our… my office is right behind the ticket window, and the ticket teller… our office… the ticket manager wasn't in there, so the ticket teller came and got me when he came to the window. I have this, uh, IndiePass, I don't know what to do with it. So I was showing her how to…00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:18.000Pete Meyer: redeem it in in Brooklyn.00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:43.000Pete Meyer: New York pops up. Oh, I got to talk to this guy. I go, you mean that you drove all the way here just to ski at Cabra Faith in Brooklyn, New York? And you're like, yeah, I did. And I thought, I'm like, this pass is awesome, right? It's great, guys. But then we talked a little bit more and you said you had family in the area and we're in the area for a while. So I was really high for a long time on the UniPass because of that. But I didn't know it was you until I was digging through the data. I'm like, oh, that's.00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:20.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:40.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so.00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:44.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, that's cool.00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:58.000Pete Meyer: That's that's so. So anyways, anyways, we'll where was I? So okay, so then we were the first as part of that. Then we were the 1st ski resort in the Lower Peninsula to to commit to the to Indy Pass, and I'm not sure about.00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:46.000Stuart Winchester: Love that.00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:01.000Pete Meyer: Um, the UP, uh.00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:16.000Pete Meyer: But the only one in the Lower Peninsula. And so we knew at that time, well, this isn't going to do anything unless we get a couple more ski resorts to join. So we had reached out to a few. And Pete Bigford was interested. And he was the CEO and president of Shanty Creek at the time.00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:30.000Pete Meyer: And Pete had said, yeah, we'll do it, but we need a couple of downstate resorts to join as well. So then we reached out to Jamie at Swiss Valley, she said yes, and Doug at Cannonsburg, and he said yes. So that first year, we had four.00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:33.000Pete Meyer: Um, resorts on the Indy Pass. And…00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:45.000Pete Meyer: During that time he that 1st year he charged resorts a thousand dollars to get in. So we we had conversations. We're like, well, let's let's try it. The worst we can do is be out a thousand dollars right? So we had these.00:50:45.000 --> 00:51:00.000Pete Meyer: 4 ski areas in, and we did… I think we did 44 redemptions that first year. It was… it was virtually nothing. I don't even think it covered the… the $1,000. It might have come… but… but we liked the concept, it was neat, and the word got out, and then… and then Crystal Mountain joined, um, the next year.00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:53.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow. Okay.00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:06.000Pete Meyer: Uh, and then, so we kind of hit a critical mass there, and then it was a really good pass, um.00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:16.000Pete Meyer: for a long time, for a while, for several years. And one thing that Doug had said, and during that first year, I think in 2019, they had about 50.00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:32.000Pete Meyer: ski resorts on the pass, if I remember. And he said, I really hope to get it to 80 to maybe 100 passes. Um, and you as an early adopter, um, Cabaret will have say who gets in, in, in your particular region, because I really want to keep it, do just a couple ski resorts per region.00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:37.000Pete Meyer: not to not to oversaturate the market. Like, yeah, great. This sounds sounds really good.00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:40.000Pete Meyer: So then as we go on, um…00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:50.000Pete Meyer: he sells the pass to, uh, Entebani and Eric. Um, and great for Doug, we're happy for Doug, he worked really hard to make that pass, good for him for selling it. Um, can't fault him.00:51:50.000 --> 00:52:05.000Pete Meyer: Um, and then we like to say, like, Eric, Eric took the pass and put it on steroids. You know, it's just, he, he's, he's done a wonderful job with it. You know, he's obviously very, very intelligent, very successful, running three different businesses, um, um, and doing well at all of them.00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:09.000Pete Meyer: But he's blown it up. He just had a different mission.00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:13.000Pete Meyer: than than Doug had. Right? So what did that evolve into?00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:14.000Stuart Winchester: Blowing it up, you mean making bigger, right?00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:22.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, making it bigger. Like, Doug was gonna keep it small and couple to each region, and we were gonna have an input on, you know.00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:35.000Pete Meyer: to try to prevent it from being oversaturated. So, I know the Midwest has a lot of ski areas on the pass, but, like, our world is Michigan and our, more specifically, northern Michigan.00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:36.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:38.000Pete Meyer: So it got down to where we had 6.00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:56.000Pete Meyer: um, ski resorts within a 60-mile radius in northern Michigan, right? So if you drop a pin, you can drive within, within 60 miles, you can get to six resorts on it. Um, that density just became too much for us, because that's 12 visits, right? If a skier buys an Andy Pass, they can ski 12 times, two at each place. It's great for them, they get a lot of.00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:43.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:12.000Pete Meyer: Um, the problem is, is what we're seeing, and we're watching the numbers every year, um, and it was easy to do because there's not a ton of redemptions, but how many of those people were former Passovers, right? And that percentage kept rising every year.00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:25.000Pete Meyer: So what it became and evolved into is just a direct competitor of our own season pass product. And that's ultimately reason number one why we — it just oversaturated.00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:26.000Pete Meyer: And.00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:27.000Stuart Winchester: So, go ahead.00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:28.000Pete Meyer: And, you know, so…00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:34.000Pete Meyer: I and I think the the Indy Pass really for a lot of ski resorts.00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:51.000Pete Meyer: doesn't move the needle a ton, um, financially. Uh, for… for us, it really didn't, and I felt like we were… did a reasonable number of redemptions, so we could… we could take it… take it or leave it. It doesn't have a big impact. It affects the customer more. Like, that decision was hard, the person who bought it in the past.00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:56.000Pete Meyer: Um, but I think Eric's a stand-up guy. He'll let anybody who…00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:07.000Pete Meyer: who bought an E-Pass, and their favorite resort is not on that, they'll give a refund to anybody who wants one. So the Cabaret listeners know that, and I think that's nice of him to do. Also, for those.00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:19.000Pete Meyer: um, Cabaret, uh, listeners who bought an Indy add-on. He'll honor that for this year, from what I understand. So, it's a couple of really good things that he's doing there, so we're thankful, thankful for that. But, um.00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:28.000Pete Meyer: through conversations, and we just decided it was time to get out. So that's reason number one. I got a couple more reasons if you've got time.00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:41.000Stuart Winchester: Well, let's linger on that for a second. I mean, for me, it just comes down to good old-fashioned free market competition, right? Where there's another pass available that is looking for smaller mountains like Caber Fay. It also signed mountains like Buck Hill and.00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:58.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and uh… Wild Mountain over in Minnesota, just small areas near populations that are popular. I saw you catching some heat in comments to me, you know, on my platforms and social media, because you go from the Indy Pass, which maxed out at $419.00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:16.000Stuart Winchester: to the full Icon, which is $1,449 right now, and I know you can upgrade and buy a discounted Icon session pass, but I don't want to overstate it. What's the reaction been like from your pass holders, and how have you handled that?00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:24.000Stuart Winchester: The fact that you're no longer available on the cheap discounted pass, multi-mountain pass, but you are available on the very expensive one.00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:27.000Pete Meyer: Great question, great question, because we've been getting…00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:42.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we've been getting both, uh, good and, and bad feedback from it. So, what, what it comes down to is the, is the decision to, to, uh, leave Indy and, and join OCCON. Those, those decisions were, were mutually exclusive. Like, like, we had made the decision to.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:52.000Pete Meyer: to leave Indy, um, before we even started to Icon. And we had a lot of conversations of, hey, let's just… let's just be… let's just be independent and not on any… any, uh…00:55:52.000 --> 00:56:08.000Pete Meyer: Multi resort pass, you know, there's a lot of really successful and really nice ski resorts that have that model, like Perfect North Slopes, Cascade in Wisconsin. We always go out and ski somewhere every spring and I went out to the Tahoe area this year and skied at Mount Rose, you know, that place is.00:55:58.000 --> 00:55:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:18.000Pete Meyer: that place is phenomenal. They're not on any, any, um, any pants. And, um, it was neat to ski there, and just see they had a similar vibe and feel that, um, Cabaret had, right?00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:13.000Stuart Winchester: Right. That's right.00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:23.000Pete Meyer: So quite a bit more, quite a bit more. Yeah, yeah.00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:21.000Stuart Winchester: Just a little more elevation.00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:24.000Stuart Winchester: They're at, like, 9,000 feet.00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:27.000Pete Meyer: Absolutely, but it was great terrain. So.00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:29.000Pete Meyer: After we left the Indy Pass.00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:31.000Pete Meyer: Then we, um…00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:46.000Pete Meyer: Started talking to the folks at ICON, and I want to give a shout out to Aaron Keene and Caitlin Windauer, those girls are really sharp and would answer all the questions. It kind of reminded me of the early DuckFish days where they were all knowing and knew a lot of answers to everything.00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:53.000Pete Meyer: We talked to them for a long time. We weren't in any rush to make a decision to go down this road.00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:57.000Pete Meyer: And you know what ultimately decided for us is.00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:10.000Pete Meyer: We want to do what's best for our core customer, and our core customer is our season pass holder, okay? And this IndyPass or this IconPass brought on this reciprocal benefit of a three-day.00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:27.000Pete Meyer: 3 day session pass you can get for 50% off. Right? And that adds a lot of value. To our pass holders. And so we've been hit as much as the negativity that you've seen online for leaving any pass, we've been getting messages from our pass holders saying, hey, thank you for this benefit. This is great.00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:13.000Stuart Winchester: It's.00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:15.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, three day. Yeah. Okay.00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:43.000Pete Meyer: I'm gonna use it. I'm gonna take a trip. And then we've known we've gone out west together and 3 days of skiing is plenty. Like we like to ski bell to bell and it's you're by that 3rd day you're waking up and you're like you can't even move your legs for you know we're so so we think it's a nice.00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:38.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah.00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:55.000Pete Meyer: Uh, you can ski locally here, you can head up in, um, hit up, hit up both Boyne Mountain and Boyne Highlands, or drive over to, uh, Blue Mountain, Ontario, so you don't have to get in a plane. So it's.00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:11.000Pete Meyer: Uh, of our pass holders. Cause we know, we know, Stuart, that nobody's going to buy a full icon pass for two days at Cabaret. We, we know that that wasn't even the, like Pete said, we're, we do like our independence and, and.00:57:57.000 --> 00:57:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:04.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:25.000Pete Meyer: And we like to create these partnerships that are good for our core customers. The people that commit to us, we're going to give you the best we can. And so, you know, that that three day session pass is just it's it's.00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:29.000Pete Meyer: It's a it's a great benefit for our core customers.00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:47.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it's like you take a trip to Steamboat, or Palisades Tahoe, or a lot of the mountains that are on that. So, you know, it all makes sense, and I like the, you know, Boyne, Cabaret, sort of on one team, and then you have Nubs, and Crystal, and Treetops, and Shani on the other. I think that's good for skiers, it's good for.00:58:47.000 --> 00:59:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, two more, two more things I wanna talk about and then we'll get out of here. Uh, I, I really wanna talk about your season pass. $299 unlimited. I think it was even a little cheaper for early birds, but that's what it is right now. Uh, 219 for weekday, 129 for Sunday. That, that's an awesome, awesome deal.00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:18.000Stuart Winchester: by any measure. I noticed you no longer have the Saturday-Sunday pass, and I think it's been a couple years, and it also… Saturday lift tickets are more than Sunday, so it seems as though, from my point of view, you're really trying to manage the experience on Saturday. So, talk about your season pass suite.00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:27.000Stuart Winchester: And how that relates to your mountain management as far as making sure when people show up, they have a good experience.00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:42.000Pete Meyer: No, you're exactly right. You hit the nail on the head right there. We're trying to preserve the Saturday experience. That's the day everybody wants to ski. So if you're going to be on a pass and ski at Calgary on a pass, you got to have the seven-day week pass.00:59:42.000 --> 01:00:00.000Pete Meyer: And we wanted to protect that experience and not get overcrowded, not get overrun, and that's one of the main reasons that we got rid of the weekend pass. The weekend pass, we roll out, it was a $99 weekend pass in 2007 when we launched that, and that thing went all the way till.01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:14.000Pete Meyer: I think 2000 or 2001, we had that, so we had that for a long time, and that brought a lot of skiers here and exposed us as we continued to get better, and they saw the resort that we had, and all the work that Tim was doing on the hill.01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:21.000Pete Meyer: And then that just evolved into trying to manage the volume levels on Saturdays.01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it's a, it's, it's a great deal. And, uh, you know, even, even as it's risen past 99, I mean, you know, 299, there's, there's a lot of resorts in the West that are charging more than that for a day this year. Beaver Creek's topping out at 392. So I love it. Okay. The last thing I want to.01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:48.000Stuart Winchester: This one's a little personal, and I know I talked to you about this, uh, it was about 4 years ago, Tim or Pete, I forget, it was maybe both of you I was talking to. So I want to talk about this Trail Starkey.01:00:48.000 --> 01:01:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, I knew Dick Starkey. I'm friends with his daughter Crystal from way back. We went to school together. Uh, and, and I met him and I, I was always just remember being very impressed by him. He had a really good presence. Uh, he was, he was very fit and active and, and did a lot of things.01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:09.000Stuart Winchester: Um, I didn't know him super well, but I met him a few times, and… and I… I just want to talk about, you know, he passed.01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:25.000Stuart Winchester: Four or five years ago now, and I noticed this trail and, and I said, oh, is that, is that named after Dick? And, and you said it was. So, uh, can, can you talk about the Starkey trail? Talk about Dick Starkey and, and, uh, his legacy at Cabre Fay and, and, and why it was fitting to name a.01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:34.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, Dick was a volunteer patroller at SP, patroller at Caber Fay for…01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:42.000Pete Meyer: I think… I… I think as long as… as my dad was around, you know, uh, Dick was there, and so, you know.01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:52.000Pete Meyer: 40… however many years, 40… 40-some years, he was a patroller at Cabaret, and uh… you know, just had a big presence, you know, you knew him.01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:53.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:01:52.000 --> 01:02:01.000Pete Meyer: Played football at Ferris. Great stories about that. He was a captain and so he's tough.01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:55.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:02.000Pete Meyer: And.01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:17.000Pete Meyer: just a… just a great guy, great patroller, great mentor, um, a ton… lots and lots of stories about Dick Starkey for another day, but, uh, just somebody that we wanted to honor, and, um, so, you know, we made that change.01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:21.000Stuart Winchester: And why this trail? Why this, uh, why did you choose this one?01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:35.000Pete Meyer: you know, that… I don't… I don't know why we picked that one. We just… we… we… I think we… the, um… the previous name was an old, you know, an older name that… that… that honored a…01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:47.000Pete Meyer: an older ski instructor, but I think we thought, you know, maybe… maybe it was time for a change there. Some… maybe just something a little more relevant to… someone more relevant to…01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:52.000Pete Meyer: You know, this this last, you know, 40 years of caprophage tradition.01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:57.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. And, and I believe, I believe Crystal still, uh, volunteer patrols there as well, right? Yeah.01:02:56.000 --> 01:02:59.000Pete Meyer: Yes. Yes, she is.01:02:57.000 --> 01:03:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that's great. I haven't talked to her in a minute, but hi, Crystal. Hope you're doing great. Pete.01:03:03.000 --> 01:03:05.000Pete Meyer: No, no, not about the trail.01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:22.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay, all right. Well, hey, listen, guys, I really appreciate catching up with you. There's so much always going on at Cabaret, and we were long overdue, so let's do it again soon, and I gotta get up there and ski that East Peak lift, because I haven't been in a minute, so I really appreciate that, and I'll talk to you guys soon, and thanks so much.01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:25.000Pete Meyer: Thanks, Stuart. Thanks a lot, Stu. Appreciate it.01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:26.000Stuart Winchester: All right, talk soon.01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:28.000Stuart Winchester: All right, let me just…01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:43.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, that was Tim and Pete Meyer of Cabaret. I love Cabaret. It was my pseudo home mountain when I lived in Michigan. It was just 90 minutes down the road, so I never had a season pass there.01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:51.000Stuart Winchester: but I would go there a lot. I mean, and this was, you know, lift tickets were $20 or something back then, so it didn't really matter, and they had a lot of specials. So, I want to…01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:57.000Stuart Winchester: wrap up today, I want to talk about lift tickets a little bit, because there's some lift ticket deals going on.01:03:57.000 --> 01:03:59.000Stuart Winchester: And…01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:14.000Stuart Winchester: I'll tell you about the deals first, and then I'll, I'll tell you what I make of them as a, as a theme. So we're gonna focus on Colorado for a moment. So Arapahoe Basin, to celebrate its 80th anniversary, is doing $80 lift tickets every Wednesday.01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:29.000Stuart Winchester: from late December through April, except for December 30th, which is holiday week, of course. Uh, they are $50 on Wednesdays outside of those windows, so early season at A-Basin, and then late season, and of course, uh, the mountain typically goes until June.01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:35.000Stuart Winchester: $80 lift ticket today, based in on their anniversary weekend, Saturday and Sunday, December 5th and 6th.01:04:35.000 --> 01:04:45.000Stuart Winchester: Also, anyone born in 1946, making you 80 years old, skis free all winter. Uh, A-Basin has a lot of ways to get in cheap. They have 3-day packs.01:04:45.000 --> 01:05:00.000Stuart Winchester: With no blackouts, any day, use any 3 days for $249. They have midweek packs, 5 days for $319. Midweek season pass is $539, and a full is $699, and of course, A-Basin is unlimited on both the Icon and the Icon.01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, base pass, and I wanna see…01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:08.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, they did get rid of the fall pass. I had…01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:21.000Stuart Winchester: I had emailed, because… because A-Basin used to have this great pass for, like, 250 bucks. It was from opening day until Christmas, but they did get rid of it. Uh, and… and they… Shayna from A-Basin emailed, and she told me.01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:37.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, for background, that was a very small audience for, for us who were interested in the Fall Pass pack. So, uh, so thank you, Shayna, for getting back to me so quickly, and I'd sent that right before the podcast started. So, so A-Basin deals on Wednesdays, you know, put that down in your.01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:55.000Stuart Winchester: List if you, if you wanna actually day ski and maybe you have an epic pass, but you wanna, you miss a basin. Uh, and then Thursdays Copper Mountain is again doing $99 Thursdays. They're play for every Thursdays and a portion of that goes to a good cause. They're doing that every Thursday from January 7th to April 8th.01:05:55.000 --> 01:06:04.000Stuart Winchester: Including the holiday week in February, I don't know if that's a mistake, but grab it while you can, because I don't think they can take it back once you buy it. Uh, and then.01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:05.000Stuart Winchester: $99 a copper.01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:19.000Stuart Winchester: starting Monday, April 12th, which is pretty awesome. So, if you wanted to do a little day ski, and, you know, right now you can still buy tickets and everything, or still buy passes, because we're recording this on September 17th.01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:30.000Stuart Winchester: But if you're listening in the future, you could do a Wednesday $80 a day basin, a Thursday $99 at Copper Mountain. It's not a bad couple days in Summit County for a pretty reasonable price, given.01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:44.000Stuart Winchester: prices in 2026 for lift tickets at most mountains. Uh, down the road, Aspen, for its 80th anniversary, is doing $80 lift tickets Saturday and Sunday, December 12th and 13th. They also offered…01:06:44.000 --> 01:07:01.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, tickets for $3 and 75 cents for Monday, December 14th. But those are sold out and they, I'm pretty much sure they sold out instantly. And it's funny ‘cause they didn't even market it at first. And, and Aspen folks tell me they just blew off the shelves. So that is for Aspen's 80th anniversary.01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:17.000Stuart Winchester: Same year as, uh, a basin is celebrating right now. And of course, some of the little guys around there, you know, ski Cooper hasn't announced their lift ticket prices yet. And I know it's small, but it's still, it's, it's a place you can go. It's high. There's no snow making. It's all natural snow.01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:22.000Stuart Winchester: $49 midweek tickets at Ski Cooper last year, maxed out at $99 on weekends.01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:30.000Stuart Winchester: Down the road, if you're on your way to Aspen, Sunlight, which has 1,750 feet of vertical drop.01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:46.000Stuart Winchester: And two brand new lifts. Well, one was from a base and used, but it was only 20 years old. So they put in two brand new lifts last year. Big vertical. Uh, their lift tickets max out at $109. Midweek, they're $74 to $94. It's a fun little area. It gives you Colorado.01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:53.000Stuart Winchester: with a little bit more of a… a throwback Colorado, old Colorado feel. So, so the question here is.01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:57.000Stuart Winchester: Are we starting to see a rationalization?01:07:57.000 --> 01:07:58.000Stuart Winchester: In the lift ticket market.01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:04.000Stuart Winchester: Are we starting to see ski areas value the skier that.01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:19.000Stuart Winchester: maybe has an Icon Pass, but wants to ski another mountain for a day? Or I guess more in this case, since Copper and A-Basin are both Epic Pass mountains, are we seeing them take advantage of the fact that right now, if you look at prices for.01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:27.000Stuart Winchester: Breckenridge, it's $153 to ski on Friday, November 6th. Who knows what they'll have open? Probably not a lot.01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:43.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it's 180 that day. Breckenridge goes over 300 for peak days. Uh, and on Monday, April 19th, as, as copper has dropped to 99, Breck right now is set to have a $179 walkup price for Monday, April 19th. So.01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:49.000Stuart Winchester: I think you're seeing some smart reactions from some of the…01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:55.000Stuart Winchester: larger players and showing there's still a competitive market in Colorado. The question is…01:08:55.000 --> 01:09:07.000Stuart Winchester: will Vail follow? In their earnings call, one of their earnings calls recently, uh, Rob Katz, or their end-of-year earnings, their CEO, Rob Katz, said that Lyft ticket sales had softened considerably.01:09:07.000 --> 01:09:14.000Stuart Winchester: To absolutely no one's surprise, uh, because of the price of lift tickets. So, Ken Vale…01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:27.000Stuart Winchester: find a way in the softer seasons to start to compete, because it's clear that their direct compe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast likes it when ski areas are run by people who are good at running ski areas. Please subscribe to the email newsletter to get new posts the moment they're live. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.About CamelbackOwned by: EPR Properties, managed by Peregrine Hospitality (formerly KSL Resorts)Located in: Tannersville, PennsylvaniaYear founded: 1963Pass affiliations:* Ikon Pass: 7 days, no blackouts* Ikon Base Pass: 5 days, holiday blackoutsClosest neighboring ski areas: Shawnee Mountain (:24), Jack Frost (:26), Big Boulder (:27), Skytop Lodge (:29), Saw Creek (:37), Blue Mountain (:41), Pocono Ranchlands (:43), Montage (:44), Hideout (:51), Elk Mountain (1:05), Bear Creek (1:09), Ski Big Bear (1:16)Base elevation: 1,252 feetSummit elevation: 2,079 feetVertical drop: 827 feetSkiable Acres: 166Average annual snowfall: 50 inchesTrail count: 45, with three new trails for 2026-27 (not on the map below, but discussed on the podcast)Lift count: 12 (1 high-speed six-pack, 1 high-speed quad, 1 fixed-grip quad, 2 triples, 2 doubles, 5 carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Camelback's lift fleet)For reference:The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, then click on any text block to teleport to the associated point in the video; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:37.000Stuart Winchester: Welcome to The Storm! I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. Today is Wednesday, September 16th, 2026, and I've got a really good show for you today.00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:45.000Stuart Winchester: we're going to talk some Pennsylvania skiing. And Pennsylvania skiing is a really interesting thing. As I travel around the country.00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:56.000Stuart Winchester: and ski at all these different places in the Midwest, and out West, and in New England, and in the Mid-Atlantic. Uh, and as I talk to folks who… who don't ski that much, or only ski at the big mountains.00:03:56.000 --> 00:04:05.000Stuart Winchester: I'll often bring up some experience I had at a Pennsylvania ski area. Pennsylvania has quite a few ski areas as 21.00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:20.000Stuart Winchester: public chairlift-served ski areas, and it does 2.6 million skier visits on average per year. That is more than any state except for Colorado, California, Utah, Vermont, and New York.00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:26.000Stuart Winchester: It's more than Washington, it's more than Oregon, it's more than Montana, it's more than New.00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:39.000Stuart Winchester: So, Pennsylvania is a really important ski state, which is probably why Vail Resorts owns 8 ski areas there, because it is really close to a lot of population centers. In western PA, you have Pittsburgh.00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:54.000Stuart Winchester: and Seven Springs, and Laurel, and Hidden Valley, and then you have Philadelphia on the east side, and you can also draw up from Baltimore and D.C. for Round Top and Whitetail. And uh…00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:57.000Stuart Winchester: And Jack Frost's Big Boulder up in the Poconos. So…00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:00.000Stuart Winchester: Vail has a big presence there.00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:15.000Stuart Winchester: Icon has a presence there with Camelback and Blue Mountain. Uh, and then Indy Pass just signed their 8th ski area in Pennsylvania with Spring Mountain, uh, down near Philadelphia. So, so it's, it's a place where a lot of skiers start.00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:19.000Stuart Winchester: And it's a little bit of a funny place to ski, because…00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:29.000Stuart Winchester: it tends to have an outsized number of novice skiers, which is great. They're very good at doing that. Uh, but it can make it a little chaotic.00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:38.000Stuart Winchester: And the lift lines can get a little crazy, and people are all over the hill, and sometimes they're walking down the hill because they're frustrated and they're giving up.00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:40.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and…00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.000Stuart Winchester: You take that as your baseline in Pennsylvania.00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:49.000Stuart Winchester: And you had any sort of complications.00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:54.000Stuart Winchester: And things get out of hand really quickly. And in general.00:05:55.000 --> 00:06:00.000Stuart Winchester: For that reason, the ski areas that have survived in Pennsylvania.00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:07.000Stuart Winchester: are among the best operators in the world, and I would put that up against anyone.00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:14.000Stuart Winchester: It's a very, very challenging environment, not only because you have a high number of novice skiers.00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:17.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but also because you have…00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:31.000Stuart Winchester: not a ton of snow, sometimes in the west part of the state, where there's higher elevation, they do get a lot of snow, but… but not as a rule, you couldn't count on it for natural snow. Uh, you get a lot of rain, you get a lot of warm-ups.00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:35.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and… and you, in general, have to rely on…00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:42.000Stuart Winchester: a very short season, generally mid-December-ish to mid-March-ish.00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:45.000Stuart Winchester: And the skiers there…00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:52.000Stuart Winchester: They're they're accustomed to a pretty high standard, so.00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:57.000Stuart Winchester: So when things do get out of control, uh…00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:04.000Stuart Winchester: They really rebelled, and they really noticed. So, a couple years ago, this is what happened at Camelback. So, Camelback…00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:09.000Stuart Winchester: You know, I don't generally do ops stories, uh…00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:10.000Stuart Winchester: You know.00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:19.000Stuart Winchester: ski area didn't groom this run, or they haven't opened this lift, or, uh, you know, they usually let this bump up, but they don't, or, or…00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:27.000Stuart Winchester: you know, they… they are trying to save money, or they're being cheap. I generally don't bother with those, even though I get a lot of messages.00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:32.000Stuart Winchester: Complaining about things like that, because there's almost always a pretty good reason.00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:38.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and it's almost always temporary, and it's really not worth the effort.00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:48.000Stuart Winchester: to write the story if I'm just writing about, you know, why Stratton or Mount Snow or Magic Mountain didn't open a certain lift on a certain day.00:07:48.000 --> 00:08:04.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it's, it's a lot to track down and it's a lot of, uh, this person said this and the other person said that. It's just not the kind of thing that I'm want to cover with the storm, right? I want to do bigger stories. I want to do trend stories. I want to look at the culture and evolution of skiing.00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:11.000Stuart Winchester: And the passes, and all the infrastructure, and all the fun stuff. So I don't generally cover the day-to-day stuff, just because…00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:18.000Stuart Winchester: The ski areas that remain in 2026 are, for the most part, run by really good operators.00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:32.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it… because… and they've survived. Most of the bad ski areas that were either mismanaged or were in the wrong places, they went out of business a long time ago, which is why the number of ski areas has been stable for around 25 years now in America.00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:35.000Stuart Winchester: So I but I started to notice.00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:45.000Stuart Winchester: several years ago that I was getting an outsized number of complaints around one ski area in particular in the Poconos.00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:47.000Stuart Winchester: And it was Camelback.00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:51.000Stuart Winchester: And Camelback had a long history of being an independent.00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:52.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:54.000Stuart Winchester: Really…00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:59.000Stuart Winchester: the way it's been described to me by… by season pass holders, and I've skied…00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:04.000Stuart Winchester: some at Camelback, but I don't have that depth of knowledge of having grown up there.00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:20.000Stuart Winchester: That Camelback for a long time, for decades, set the standard on snowmaking, on grooming, on just general maintenance of lifts in the ski area in the Poconos. And that was why they had chosen to ski there all those years.00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:30.000Stuart Winchester: But things had started to fall apart when a new owner showed up in 2019. It was at the time KSL Capital, who was.00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:43.000Stuart Winchester: was managing it for EPR Properties, which is the entity that bought it, and they own a bunch of ski areas, EPR Properties, including a bunch owned by Vail, including North Star, and a lot of the old Peak Resorts in Ohio and such.00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:50.000Stuart Winchester: And KSL Resorts was a division of KSL Capital.00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:53.000Stuart Winchester: which is a part owner of Altera.00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:58.000Stuart Winchester: But for some reason, Altera, which is very good at running ski resorts.00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:00.000Stuart Winchester: did not…00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:15.000Stuart Winchester: get assigned as the… as the owner of Camelback. And when KSL Resorts purchased Blue Mountain, not in Ontario, the Blue Mountain in Pennsylvania, that's about 45 minutes from Camelback, two years later, in 2021.00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:26.000Stuart Winchester: That ski area also did not fall under Altera's ownership. And it was an odd choice to make, because Altera's really good at running ski areas, and they run…00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mammoth, and Deer Valley, and Steamboat, and Solitude, and Palisades Tahoe, and Stratton, and Sugarbush, and they definitely have.00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:41.000Stuart Winchester: the institutional knowledge and internal firepower to be able to run these ski areas in the Poconos.00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:43.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Blue Mountain…00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:47.000Stuart Winchester: Had the benefit of a long time tenured management team.00:10:47.000 --> 00:11:02.000Stuart Winchester: That kept the place, by all accounts, running pretty well. Camelback, on the other hand, seemed to be falling apart before our eyes, and before the eyes of the loyalist skiers who loved the place so much. And they were really, really concerned, and I started to…00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:08.000Stuart Winchester: Because they had put, uh, a management team in place, it seemed.00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:10.000Stuart Winchester: that…00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:22.000Stuart Winchester: was not familiar with the… with the inner workings of a ski area. Uh, I… I hosted Dave Makarski, the former general manager of Kalenbach, on this podcast.00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:33.000Stuart Winchester: and very nice guy. We had a great conversation. Uh, he's not a skier. And, and, you know, sometimes you can be not a skier and run a great ski resort. Uh, look at Bill Stritzler up at Smuggler's Notch.00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:43.000Stuart Winchester: Bill hasn't skied in years, and he snowboarded for a little bit, but he's not a daily skier. Look at Shawnee.00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:54.000Stuart Winchester: that where the owner… that's one of the most modern, nice ski areas in the Poconos, uh, and the owner has not skied in decades. So, so it's not always necessary, uh, but…00:11:55.000 --> 00:12:10.000Stuart Winchester: It does help and it's certainly a benefit. So everyone I talked to, I was, I was gathering all this stuff for a story and I was gonna write about Camelback and, and it, it really seemed like it was the worst run ski area anywhere that I could find based on the amount of feedback I was getting.00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:25.000Stuart Winchester: I was gathering all this feedback from all these long-time pass holders, and then they hired a new general manager, and so I scrapped the story, but I still wanted to get it, and by all accounts, Jason Bays, who I'll bring on the podcast in a moment.00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:34.000Stuart Winchester: has really done a nice job of turning CamelBak around. So, so let's go to Jason now.00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:16.000Stuart Winchester: My guest today is the Vice President and General Manager of Camelback Ski Area in Pennsylvania.00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:26.000Stuart Winchester: Camelback runs six chairlifts, or maybe seven. I might have had a typo there. Serving 45 trails on an 827-foot vertical drop.00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:41.000Stuart Winchester: Prior to taking the top job at Camelback, he was general manager for Great Wolf Resorts around the United States. He also spent time as chief operating officer and general manager of Mountain Creek Ski Area in New Jersey and director of operations.00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:54.000Stuart Winchester: for Jay Peak, Vermont. His very first jobs as a teenager were as a lifeguard and ski instructor at Camelback. Jason Bay is my guest. Jason, welcome to the Storm. Awesome to have you. How you doing today?00:14:53.000 --> 00:15:00.000Jason Bays: Thank you, Stuart. Great to be here. I've been a listener from day one, so excited to join you.00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:14.000Stuart Winchester: I love that. I'm so hyped to hear that. I know I started with a little Northeast focus. You know, you're the… you probably know this already, but you're the second straight guest I've had on. There was a Mountain Creek alum, Chris Haggerty, on yesterday. Are you acquainted with Chris?00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:18.000Jason Bays: Yeah, Chris and I worked together, um, back in our days at Mountain Creek, great guy.00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:33.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, I'm, uh, I'm not sure, I'm sure you're aware I'm based in New York City and Mountain Creek is one of my go-tos and, and was my home mountain before I started traveling all over the place for the storm. So, so, you know, Jason, I, I think it's awesome that you grew up at Camelback. Tal.00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:41.000Stuart Winchester: your childhood Camelback. What was the kingdom of Camelback like to you, uh, when you were growing up skiing there?00:15:40.000 --> 00:16:03.000Jason Bays: Yeah, look, I, you know, took, I grew up in Pocono Kid, born and raised 10 minutes from the resort. After school ski program was the first, you know, first sort of foray into life at Camelback and was immediately hooked in the summer as a swimming pool and two water slides. I thought that was the most awesome place in the world too.00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:45.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:21.000Jason Bays: And my parents thought it was a great babysitting service, you know, relative to that. So it was just an awesome, awesome place to grow up and, you know, be part of the small but mighty ski community that is Tannersville, Pennsylvania, in this area, in the Poconos.00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:39.000Jason Bays: um, you know, when it came to get a first job, uh, there's no place I was, uh, gonna consider other than Camelback. It's where all my friends were, it's where we all hung out all the time, and, um, you know, really just got introduced to, uh, to the sport, and, um, had some freedom. It was the first time I had some freedom, and it was to be at Camelback, so that's.00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:56.000Stuart Winchester: So you worked there, and you were part of the machine, so to speak, and I realized you were sort of on the peripheral of the machine, as opposed to in the center of it, as you are now. But, you know, you grew up in the Poconos, and had that experience, and you had this vision of Camelback in your head, right? Then you went off and had a big life, as…00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:57.000Jason Bays: Yes.00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.000Stuart Winchester: as people do, and you went and worked at all these places that I just mentioned.00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:03.000Stuart Winchester: And then you came back to Camelback.00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: When you, when you arrived.00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:10.000Stuart Winchester: How had the place changed? And I just want to tee this up. I, you know.00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:19.000Stuart Winchester: before you came on, I was talking about how I don't generally write operations stories, right? Because it… there's usually a good reason for why a trail is closed, a lift's not running.00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:26.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but a few years ago, I started to get an outsized number of complaints about Camelback.00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:38.000Stuart Winchester: And so I started to write a story about it, and then when you came along, I shelved it, because honestly, everyone immediately was like, oh, this is so much better. So, you know, how had…00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:41.000Stuart Winchester: Camelback changed.00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:42.000Stuart Winchester: when you…00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:44.000Stuart Winchester: Came back to work there.00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:51.000Stuart Winchester: And what were the challenges facing the resort? What did you focus on immediately?00:17:50.000 --> 00:18:08.000Jason Bays: Yeah, I'll just back up to say, you know, just to contextualize, um, from when I was there as a teenager and, um, through college on the ski team, too, I would say that community was a really big word, um, that was used all the time. You, you felt like it was, it was the Camelback community, and there's a really big emphasis on the ski product.00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:28.000Jason Bays: Um, as a ski instructor, like, what we were putting out, how we were doing lessons, how many lessons we could do, and the experience that was surrounding that. And same thing on the water park side. And, you know, I think the, um, you know, some of the observations, um, coming back to Camelback was, um, I think there's a little bit of focus, um, focus direction for, for, like, to focus on the ski product.00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:44.000Jason Bays: and focusing on the water park product, and I sort of look at it as, like, a… as Disney World, right? Whereas we fill out… if we do the ski part well, we do the snow tubing part well, we do the water park well, that puts heads in beds, um, versus trying to put heads in beds.00:18:44.000 --> 00:19:01.000Jason Bays: And then have them do the activities. We're leading with an activity front and centered focus. And that means making the strategic investments in the ski product, in our recreational product, and making that the very best that it can be.00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:23.000Jason Bays: back in 2008 when I was here as a teenager, that was all there was. There was no hotel product, right? So the ski product got outsized attention just naturally because it was a 560-acre resort that identified as a ski area and a water park. And I think some of the context that was missing was that while there's been a great evolution of Camelback as a four-season resort.00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:40.000Jason Bays: It's really important that, to me, that each of those business units gets the time and attention that they would deserve if they were stand-alone units, particularly because a cog… it's a cog in the wheel, and that wheel is… it's a flywheel. It needs to… it all needs to turn at once, and so we lead with.00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:43.000Jason Bays: the recreational offerings first.00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:48.000Stuart Winchester: You know, you mentioned the community, and I wasn't aware…00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:59.000Stuart Winchester: that there was such a strong community around Camelback, and I'm not surprised, because most ski areas have that group of folks who, you know, they're retirees, and they boot up at 8am, and they take runs together.00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:14.000Stuart Winchester: But they were really passionate, and the running theme, Jason, in the emails and messages that I got from Camelback locals was that they loved Camelback. It wasn't that they hated Camelback, they hated to complain about Camelback.00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:18.000Stuart Winchester: They wanted to love it, but they couldn't. There was there was.00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:34.000Stuart Winchester: a lot of things they cited, uh, not making snowmaking when it's cold, understaffed grooming, uh, missed lift inspections. I don't know if this is true. This is what people were… they were reaching, I think, for answers. Uh, put it all together, and there was… it was definitely…00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:47.000Stuart Winchester: seemed as though the ski product was not the focus. So when you came in, what did you focus on right away and say, okay, this is what we gotta change, you know, we have to cover every trail 100% right away, or whatever it was?00:20:47.000 --> 00:21:09.000Jason Bays: Yeah, I think that's, look, I would start, you hit the nail on the head that there's a very passionate skiing community here at Camelback and in the Poconos and it means a lot to people. This is second, third generations that are learning to ski here, bring their families here and be part of this. And to your point, everyone wants to be prideful of Camelback, right?00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:24.000Jason Bays: This was the, this was family run for a really long time and, you know, very focused on sort of the, you know, season pass holders renewing year after year.00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:40.000Jason Bays: You know, a couple of things. One is I think that how we authentically tell our story isn't done in a way that is, you know, is done in a way that's authentic. A, bringing back the Camelback Mountain Facebook page that communicated ski related content.00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:39.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:21:40.000 --> 00:22:06.000Jason Bays: Right? I think that, you know, there's only so many things you can say about a hotel room and how exciting it is. Like, we really lead now first with authentically telling the story. Our snow report got a lot more detailed, gave granular information as to what was going on. So, you know, did we have a perfect winter last winter? By all means, no, but we communicated that authentically. And where we messed up, we took.00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:23.000Jason Bays: the blame for it, and said, hey, we didn't get this right, and where we were working to improve the experience, we communicated that… communicated that story. So, to me, it started from a communication standpoint, that we were authentic, that we were honest, that we were truthful, and that we were communicating on a medium that.00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:31.000Jason Bays: our guests would see, um, and relate to. So I think a big miss was, I think, admittedly, a big miss was removing the, um, Camelback Mountain.00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:53.000Jason Bays: social media pages, um, and bringing those back were really important so that, um, we could tell the story authentically. I think SKUs really appreciate, um, knowing what's going on, and to your point on, hey, there's sort of this rumor flying or that rumor flying, um, you know, we were able to, uh, sort of hone in and, and tell, tell that story. Secondarily, I think from an infrastructure standpoint.00:22:53.000 --> 00:23:09.000Jason Bays: um, we really needed to make sure that we had, um, the right team in place. And we have an amazingly talented team at Camelback, um, but we did not have key positions filled, um, in certain areas. Um, and so, we bolstered up the snowmaking. Snowmaking team went from.00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:05.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.000Stuart Winchester: Like, what areas?00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:30.000Jason Bays: you know, 3 to 4 to 30, um, this past winter, um, that makes a big difference, right? Our trail rollout was, um, you know, first to open in the East, uh, for Pennsylvania, um, and, uh, um, and, and focus on the core products. Um, same thing with lift operations. We brought in a really experienced lift, uh, maintenance manager.00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:13.000Stuart Winchester: Hey!00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:14.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:46.000Jason Bays: Um, to our team that really helped, um, support our Lyft, um, uh, operation. Um, decisions on when Lyfts ran and what time they ran, uh, you know, our thought was, let's, um, be more… like, you have to run the Terrain Park Lyft every day.00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:46.000 --> 00:24:06.000Jason Bays: to me, that's a commitment. We make that every day. We say we're running the Glen Lift every day. It services great novice terrain. It services the train park. And so, looking at the operational plan and saying, okay, what are ways that we can give back, you know, and make deposits back to our skiers? And in turn.00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:24.000Jason Bays: that builds momentum, right? People talk, and, like, the ski community is so connected, right? It's like, if you do something, like, people find out about it, because they're really, you know, they hear about it. And so, for us, focus on the core business was, um, you know, from a ski standpoint, was really important, and the infrastructure.00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:13.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:41.000Jason Bays: to be able to do it. And I would just, lastly, just say I go back to making sure that our team had the resources to do their job. We're supported, we're empowered, collaborative leadership, you know, we sat around the table and said, this is the operating plan, this is what we're going to do for our guests.00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:46.000Jason Bays: And then go out and execute it to the best we can.00:24:45.000 --> 00:25:03.000Stuart Winchester: You know, Jason, I, I, I think you could have run for governor with one of the first things that you did, which was get rid of paid parking. I, I, I don't think that I've ever, uh, heard people happier about anything. Now, now, and let me, let me qualify this, right? I think in, in some instances, paid parking and parking reservations.00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:05.000Stuart Winchester: make sense.00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:18.000Stuart Winchester: you know, super high volume days. Arapahoe Basin, I think, is a model in Colorado where they only charge for certain days and certain times, and they keep backing off which days as they learn when they really need it. Camelback was charging every day.00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:36.000Stuart Winchester: All day, you know, a Monday with, you know, 10 people on the mountain, they were charging for it. And, you know, acknowledging that sometimes it's appropriate, I think Camelback got pretty out of hand with it, and when I had Mr. Markowski on the podcast, great guy, we had a great conversation, but he was not backing off that. He said, nope, paid parking.00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:51.000Stuart Winchester: we're all in. You said no. So talk about that and how you sold. I'd imagine it was a revenue stream, right? And you had to sell management on that, and I don't know if I'm giving you credit for something someone else did, but talk to us about parking and the evolution there.00:25:51.000 --> 00:26:12.000Jason Bays: Yeah, that was a week one decision from the Camelback team when I got here made from our leadership team at Camelback that everyone was in alignment on our senior leadership team here at the property and myself to remove the paid parking. And I think definitely there's actually you have so many nice pictures behind you.00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:30.000Jason Bays: I have a picture of the old paid parking sign behind me there, if you can see it on the corner, and it actually serves to me as a reminder of the guest experience, because someone's put a sticker on that paid parking sign that you probably can't see there, but it says, Ski Camelback, we're not happy until you're not happy.00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:48.000Jason Bays: Um, and it's a reminder to, to me and our team, um, that we're here to have fun, and we're here for the guest experience, and we're here to live, live and breathe fun Camelback style. This is not a, um, you know, we want guests to look forward to, to being here. And I think, you know, yes, there was.00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:48.000 --> 00:27:05.000Jason Bays: So obviously we ran a financial model. We didn't just, you know, get rid of paid parking and not assume, you know, that there wasn't some revenue to be recaptured elsewhere with a strategy to do it. But I think more importantly, you know, think about it.00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:22.000Jason Bays: a non-busy day, it might even be raining, it's 40 degrees, the last thing you want is someone running around a parking lot telling you, like, hey, I need you to hand over $15, and by the way, then you're gonna schlep your stuff up two different levels of parking, um, you know, that might be even charged higher, and then get to.00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:38.000Jason Bays: uh, the mountain and go to guest services. You know, I have a 3-year-old. If my wife and I went skiing, that would be an incredible amount of friction, um, just to get to, uh, the front of the mountain. And so I think putting ourselves in the guest lens of saying, is that really what we want the guests to experience?00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:53.000Jason Bays: Um, it's not, and, and it was a burden to everyone at this, you know, you think I'm talking about, we talked to frontline associates too, like, the first thing that they had to tell people was that they had to pay for parking. You just imagine, sort of, the cascading effect that, that, that, uh, that that had, and we said, look, is there.00:27:53.000 --> 00:28:09.000Jason Bays: Um, is there a better way? Um, can we run shuttles to these lots and pick people up and bring them to the mountain and make them feel, um, you know, like our valued… like our valued guests? What does that arrival experience look like? Um, you know, that's really what we… what we looked at, and then said, okay.00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:25.000Jason Bays: can we… ultimately, will we drive more volume here? Will more people come because of a better guest experience? And I'll say that I would rather grow the sport, grow the industry. Our team would rather grow the sport and grow the industry than figuring out how to.00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:35.000Jason Bays: You know, sort of, you know, run a secondary ancillary business that's not to our core product and what we want our guests to experience here.00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:48.000Stuart Winchester: You know, it's a little counterintuitive, but sometimes, by removing a revenue stream, you get that less-is-more effect. Another example, your season pass, you know, according to my records.00:28:48.000 --> 00:29:04.000Stuart Winchester: Starting in 2020 to ‘21, the season pass was $599 at its early bird price, and it hovered between that and $649 for the next five years. This year, you put it on sale for $399. It's still at that price for unlimited Camelback.00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:20.000Stuart Winchester: That's a great bargain for, uh, for a season pass on the East Coast, and, you know, for the listeners, you are competing with the Epic Pass, which has Jack Frost, Big Boulder, right down the road, a couple exits down I-80, and their Northeast season pass is pretty affordable, and it's a pretty good deal.00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:33.000Stuart Winchester: So… so talk to us about that decision and… and… and how… how that $399 is worth it. You also wrote back, if you want to talk about, uh, the… the triple pack. I thought that was great, and I don't have the price right in front of me, but… but you've really done a lot to… to…00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:39.000Stuart Winchester: create more of a value experience for that loyal Camelback skier, from my point of view.00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:55.000Jason Bays: Yeah, thank you, and that's definitely the goal. Um, you know, I think our thought process here is let's get more people on Snow, um, and have them have a great experience while they're here. Um, I would love to tell you that there's some master business plan behind this.00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:10.000Jason Bays: But, you know, truly, at the heart of what we do is, let's figure out how to get more people on snow, get them to a spot where they want to come back and learn and be part of it. And guess what I would just share to that is.00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:24.000Jason Bays: you know, we were charging a day ticket in 2025 of $169, um, at its highest point, right? And I would rather have a lifelong… I would rather have one per… I would much rather, I think from business proposition, we would rather have.00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:39.000Jason Bays: one person definitely not come and spend $15 to $40 to park and $169 and say, I'm never coming back, versus $399, now they're like, wow, this place is awesome, I'm getting a great value, I bring my family.00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:33.000Stuart Winchester: Damn.00:30:39.000 --> 00:31:01.000Jason Bays: I want to come enjoy food and beverage. And hey, by the way, we also have this great snow tubing park and this great water park. And would you like to stay at our hotel when you come with your season pass and enjoy Aquatopia? And we're debuting The Curse of Camelback this fall, right? Which is the Halloween, if you haven't heard, it's a Halloween 13 scare zones. Take a chair, lift up to it.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:24.000Jason Bays: But I say all that to say we've got so many great cross marketing promotional opportunities at Camelback that that really becomes a super compelling business case for us. And I think it's the right thing to do for the sport is grow it, make it more accessible, allow more people to come here and see what we have to offer. I can't tell you how many people I meet, whether it's snow tubing, skiing.00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:41.000Jason Bays: water park, the hotel, whatever they're here for, CBKMA or Adventure Park, they have no idea that the other part exists to, um, the resort. And I'll share that that's been the case even in, like, when I was, uh, at Jay Peak running the water park.00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:43.000Jason Bays: People would come there, and they'd be like.00:31:43.000 --> 00:32:02.000Jason Bays: what is this mountain that is here? And it's Jay Peak, like, one of the most hardcore ski resorts in the world. And there were people that were coming there and were like, I had no idea there was a ski resort here. So, if it's true at Jay Peak, it certainly is true at Camelback, where.00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:19.000Jason Bays: we have all these different offerings that people don't know about, maybe necessarily about all of them, so our fundamental business philosophy is make it accessible, make them lifelong, um, skiers and riders, and introduce them to everything that we have to offer here in the Poconos. And I would just argue, when I say Poconos.00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:41.000Jason Bays: Like go, like experience Shawnee and experience Jack Frost Big Boulder and experience, you know, the other great ski areas in this region and Mountain Creek and wherever else and get a flavor for it. I think that's, we could use more skiers in the industry and to grow the sport. So for us, that's sort of the long-term business model that we're using.00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:58.000Stuart Winchester: So, I just looked at the triple ticket, and it looks like $149, and I think that's no blackouts. $199 includes rentals. That's pretty amazing. So, talk about that product, and then you mentioned the $169 peak day ticket. Have you settled on prices yet for 2020?00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:03.000Stuart Winchester: 6, 27. I should have checked your site in advance, but I didn't. So I don't know if you've.00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:21.000Jason Bays: Yeah, we have not, uh, posted, uh, day ticket prices for this year. Last year, um, we didn't exceed around $110, um, on a day ticket. Uh, so we kept it, I think, pretty reasonable for, for, for a, for a Pocono offering. Um, triple tickets, massive, um, success, uh, for us.00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay.00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah.00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:37.000Jason Bays: Um, and when we talk about, like, again, getting more people introduced to the sport, you don't necessarily pick up skiing on the first time. Um, you think about that rental product, which we, um, tremendously… whatever we had on the pro forma for that was, uh, blown by by, like.00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:53.000Jason Bays: 400% on the triple ticket with rentals. And what I really believe in is that, you know, you become a lifelong skier by getting repetition, not by going once a year. It's really hard to sustain as a skier going once a year.00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:33:53.000 --> 00:34:11.000Jason Bays: and saying, oh yeah, that was our trip. We're really trying to create a guest for life and get them to return visit. That's in many ways more important to us than, again, trying to get, like, the highest yield on that one day that they picked. Like, come back and visit our resort and, um, you know, again, the business side to this is.00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:28.000Jason Bays: we're cross-marketing across all of our other offerings here that we have on this campus to say, come and visit us again. And again, to us, that's more important than, you know, the highest yield that we can get to. So the triple ticket's really successful. And I think one last thing I would share.00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:46.000Jason Bays: a lot of season passes in the market right now, um, the triple ticket's a great opportunity for people to get a couple of days at Camelback, even if they've committed somewhere else, and particularly, you know, our long season, um, there's plenty of time to use it, um, as well, uh, from the, uh, long season that we established from last year.00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:50.000Stuart Winchester: Jason, I think that's a really smart way to look at it as…00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:57.000Stuart Winchester: a… creating a habit rather than pulling as much yield as possible. And a lot of the larger operators.00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:11.000Stuart Winchester: get frustrated with me and the rest of the ski media because they don't understand why we focus on that peak price, right? Because the peak lift ticket this year at Beaver Creek is $392, set to be. Probably almost no one will pay that price, but…00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:28.000Stuart Winchester: What it does is it acts as a, a billboard for the rest of the ski industry and especially so, so Camelback for, for people who don't know when you're driving on I 80 I mean, you see it, it looms right over the highway. It is one of the major interstates in America, especially at night. The thing is lit up.00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:46.000Stuart Winchester: And so, chances are, if people think about skiing, and they think about where to go, they're gonna think about the most obvious one, and that's Camelback, and that's why, for many years, it was that, or Seven Springs was the busiest ski area in Pennsylvania, traditionally. So I think that's a really smart way to look at it, because if people show up that one time, and.00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:59.000Stuart Winchester: cost them, you know, $500 for 2 people, they're just not gonna come back, and they're not gonna try Shawnee, or… or Blue Mountain, or Jack Frost, or Elk Mountain, or Montage. So, um, I wanna talk about… Jason, I wanna talk about Lyft.00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:16.000Stuart Winchester: And… can you see this trail map? This is an old trail map. I mentioned that I know this, so for those watching on StormSkiing.com or YouTube, you can see this. So there's been a ton of changes, and I want to break all these down with you. The first I want to talk about is, over the past couple years.00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mark Antony and Cleopatra, these two lifts right here, an old triple and an old double, have been removed. Can you talk about why you took those lifts out of service, and if you plan to replace them with anything, or what you planned, or what the rationale was behind it?00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:49.000Jason Bays: Yeah, I appreciate that. Uh, that does predate my time here, that they had reached the end of their, um, uh, ability to operate. Um, and so they have, um, both been, um, sort of partially disassembled. Um, there is unfortunately not.00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:47.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:36:49.000 --> 00:37:05.000Jason Bays: I, by the way, two of my favorite lifts when I was a ski instructor, because you could get right up and not wait in long lines on the weekends, so absolutely realizing and recognizing the capacity that they brought, but no opportunity for us to.00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:23.000Jason Bays: um, reinstate those lifts as presently, um, as presently, uh, uh, sort of, um, situated, um, and, and not, not, not able to, uh, um, not able to, uh, rerun them. It will require a, um, new, uh, chairlift to, um, to ultimately replace.00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:37.000Jason Bays: those two lifts. It saddens me to share that, but that is, in fact, what has happened there, and I've been very open with our season pass holders about that messaging and the why behind it.00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:41.000Stuart Winchester: So, so in fantasy ski resort world, Jason.00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:46.000Stuart Winchester: Would you put a new lift here, and what would you put, if you could?00:37:45.000 --> 00:38:04.000Jason Bays: Yeah, absolutely. Um, same thing. We've, uh, we've made clear, uh, with no time, no official time frame to share, um, but certainly, uh, we've, we've, um, had, uh, preliminary conversations, um, about a fixed grip, um, quad that would, uh, would be able to take the place of both of those lifts, uh, and create that.00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:10.000Jason Bays: original redundancy that those two lifts brought to the resort when they were in operation.00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that would be really nice. So, so, so these are gone and I, I have a, a current trail map now. So, um, and, and it's not completely current. We'll discuss the new trails in a moment, but this is the most current posted on your website. So, uh, we go over, these are the lifts that remain and see, uh, yeah, I, I miscounted in my intro, so sorry about that.00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:42.000Stuart Winchester: So this one is Stevenson, and Stevenson was, uh, it's a high-speed quad, uh, for the listeners, and it… it was a real junker. It was always stop, stop, stop, and, you know, it was… it was really… seemed to be falling apart and have a lot of issues. Now, uh, in 2020…00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:51.000Stuart Winchester: 5, this year, or 2024, I believe, Camelback, uh, McCarthy, the GM at the time, sent out a letter saying it was due for a…00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:53.000Stuart Winchester: Waltz.00:38:53.000 --> 00:39:02.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, let me see what he said… like, a complete modernization of Stevenson. So, so did that happen? And talk to us about Stevenson, and what kind of shape it's in right now.00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:20.000Jason Bays: Yeah, great, um, yes, that was a, uh, look, an amazing, um, project that was completed by, uh, by Dave and team, um, to modernize that lift. Um, it has, essentially, Doppelmayr came in and put in an entire new, uh, minus the, uh, minus the, uh, uh, the terminals and the.00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:35.000Jason Bays: Um, uh, and the structure itself, um, essentially all new components, all new electrical, um, uh, wiring components to it, a lot of the things that had plagued it. Um, and last year, uh, it operated 138 days.00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.000Stuart Winchester: Unbelievable.00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:53.000Jason Bays: Uh, which for Pennsylvania, uh, that's pretty darn good. I think we recognize it's a workhorse, um, it's key to accessing some really, um, fantastic terrain for us, um, and that modernization project with Doppel… in, um, partnership with Doppelmeyer that was done in the summer and fall of 2025.00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:53.000 --> 00:40:08.000Jason Bays: um, was, uh, very, uh, so it's all immediate impact, um, with, uh, Stevenson Reliability this past year, and we expect that to, uh, you know, knock on wood, to, uh, to continue going forward. We essentially, again, have a brand new lift, minus the, uh.00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:10.000Jason Bays: Uh, minus the physical pieces.00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:26.000Stuart Winchester: That's a really smart way to do it because they are tremendously expensive, these new lifts. And for folks who are watching or listening, this Stevenson is really important because you walk out of this giant hotel that's right here, that's not on the trail map with 400 and some rooms, and that is how you get up the mountain. Otherwise you got to.00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:41.000Stuart Winchester: pull your way over, so when that lift is not running or has problems, it's a real big issue. So, the alternative was, over here, Black Bear 6, uh, you replaced an old high-speed quad that was there, and… and I love this Black Bear 6 lift. It is…00:40:41.000 --> 00:41:01.000Stuart Winchester: Freakin' Ferrari, man. I think the price they gave me was something like $12 million that they spent, or maybe it was $10 to put that in. So that's the alternative, right? If you don't just modernize that current lift, you replace it. So, uh, Black Bear is awesome. I love it. It has bubbles. Is it too much? I mean, I know that KSL Now Peregrine had reasons for.00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:16.000Stuart Winchester: for putting it in, but what have you learned from a couple of years of having BlackBerry around, which is, again, probably the nicest lift in the state of Pennsylvania and one of the nicest in the Northeast, but maybe a little heavier than what you need for CamelBak, but I don't know, you tell me.00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:41.000Jason Bays: Yeah, you know, you know what I would share to that, um, you know, we, we brought it back for scenic chairlift rides this summer, and I mean, it's a massive hit. The summer, summer guests love, uh, the bubbles, they put them down when it's sunny, they put them down, um, probably gets more use in the summer as a bubble lift than the winter, uh, but look, it's, it's nice to, uh, have on the days where, you know, there's some liquid precipitation out here. It certainly happens in the Poconos.00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm.00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:35.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:58.000Jason Bays: um, and, uh, and, and or, um, uh, you know, other, other weather events, it's, it's, it's a nice to have, um, and it certainly, it gets you up in, you know, a little bit over two minutes. Um, it's a smooth ride, it's a great ride. Um, you are not going to get any complaints from me that we have a, um.00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:11.000Jason Bays: bubble, D-line, six-pack, um, in place, uh, and able to operate as our main workhorse lift. Um, and, uh, I think the six-pack versus the quad was absolutely the right, uh, call. Um…00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:27.000Jason Bays: from my experience being here before with the Sullivan Express, um, with the four-seater, the six-seater, just the… the added, uh, ability, uh, there is, uh, is… is well worth it. So, uh, we're happy to have that… happy to have that lift. I… I wouldn't, uh… I wouldn't…00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:31.000Jason Bays: We won't be trading it in at this point. Let's put it that way.00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:38.000Stuart Winchester: It is a gorgeous machine, and I have to tell you, I'm that weird person who, if there's a line on one lift.00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:56.000Stuart Winchester: And no line on the lift next to it. Even if it's a slower lift, I'll take the slower lift, because I just would rather not deal with the hassle of the line. So right here, for those who are watching, is the Bailey Double, and this is an old chair lift. It's an old slow double, it runs almost exactly parallel to Black Bear 6, doesn't land quite as high.00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:16.000Stuart Winchester: on the mountain, but functionally, it does about the same thing for you. So I like Bailey, and I was glad to see that not only did you keep it, and it does run, and that was true even under the previous regime, but you got a new gearbox for it, which is a really big deal for a lift like this in several decades. Also, talk about the work you've done on Bailey, and how you hope to use that lift.00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:18.000Stuart Winchester: this year to complement Black Bear.00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:21.000Jason Bays: Yeah, so, um, Bailey Lift…00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:32.000Jason Bays: full disclosure, Bailey Lift, Meadows Lift, Raceway Lift, and our season pass holders are very aware of this. Um, unfortunately, uh, we're not, um…00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:41.000Jason Bays: ready for day one of last year, um, or even close. And so, uh, we had to do a lot of, um…00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:57.000Jason Bays: normal PM maintenance, um, throughout the, um, end of fall and into winter to have all of them operational. Um, what I share to that is, um, we will run, just level set here really quickly, we will run all the lifts that we have on this trail map.00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:44.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:02.000Jason Bays: Um, and take care of them, maintain them, operate them.00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:18.000Jason Bays: Staff them, everything that you would do to run the extra capacity, we certainly need it. We'd like more capacity, actually. So that being said, Bailey Lift is critical. We got it back online.00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:10.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:34.000Jason Bays: End of January, it ran for 2 or 3 weekends, and we had a failed gearbox, um, on it, which is really unfortunate. Um, this off-season, uh, we've replaced the gearbox, we've done a full PM over the course of the summer on it, which is…00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:50.000Jason Bays: the, as you, as everyone knows, the ideal time, uh, to be, um, conducting such work, um, so that it is ready on, uh, day one. Um, it is a critical backup lift. We will run it every weekend.00:44:50.000 --> 00:45:07.000Jason Bays: Um, that we're, you know, in season, I would say in the heart of season, we're gonna run it. Won't be shy to not run it. Um, same thing with the Meadows, same thing with the Glen, same thing with the Raceway, which, um, you know, I know that that was, um, certainly chief among the complaints of.00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:22.000Jason Bays: locals and guests who were visiting from out of town alike was Lyft availability, Lyft reliability. That was something that we focused as fast as we could on last year, but we're setting ourselves up this year to be.00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:39.000Jason Bays: um, very proactive to that, and recognizing the importance of, of each of, uh, uh, you know, each of these. And look, every once in a while, uh, if the, you always want to have, like, Bailey is critical because it's the only other, if there's Black Bear, without Black Bear, it's the only other thing left, right?00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:55.000Jason Bays: Um, and so, uh, you know, I think the, you know, back in the, when I was here, like, every Lyft ran on the weekends. It was Camelback. Um, it was busy, right? Like, everything was going. That's, that's essentially our, our, our philosophy, um, will continue to be our philosophy going forward.00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:55.000 --> 00:46:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Jason, I'll admit, I didn't come to Camelback last season, so I wasn't able to experience it firsthand. I really wanted to come to your May thing, which I'll talk about, I'll get to in a minute, but I had a shoulder surgery, so I wasn't able to do that. But I wasn't only basing my perceptions of C.00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:19.000Stuart Winchester: on locals' reactions. I had skied there myself in recent years, and the lift line management, I have to say.00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:21.000Stuart Winchester: It was…00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:33.000Stuart Winchester: really frustrating from a skier point of view, when you're waiting for the Stevenson lift, and there's a big line, and every chair is going up with one or two people, and this is not peak COVID or anything else, this is several years later.00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:50.000Stuart Winchester: So, you know, and I had a lot of locals tell me, oh, we walk up Sun Bowl because the lift line is just too chaotic. People come from both sides. No, no, again, that was all before. What's your philosophy of lift line management? How have you tried to tame that? And there's always, it's always going to be a little wild and hard in Pennsylvan.00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:56.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but they could definitely have been managed better. Is that something that was important to you, that you focused on?00:46:56.000 --> 00:47:15.000Jason Bays: Yeah, we focused on that. We have a new lift operations manager that was hired in November of 2025, who took the bull by the horns. We developed a supervisor team in fairly short order to that as well, to build out a well-rounded team. And then I would just share that our lift attendants.00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:32.000Jason Bays: All hired locally within the community. And I think that we were fully staffed in LiftOps this year, which was a big, very big win. It starts there, right? A, the people, and then B, the right people.00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:49.000Jason Bays: um, on the, uh, on the bus, um, as a catalyst to drive, uh, lift operations forward. Um, and then absolutely, uh, we focused on, uh, line management, queuing, um, we set new, in some cases, new queues. We had, um, uh, supervisors, in many cases, out.00:47:49.000 --> 00:48:04.000Jason Bays: um, putting up chairs, um, and, um, and managing the lift line. We added, once we got that right, and we felt like we were in a good spot, and we, you know, look, I think, admittedly, a couple technology hiccups here and there, it was not a perfect, uh.00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:17.000Jason Bays: we didn't, like, on opening day, it wasn't perfect, but, uh, we improved, it was a big focus for our team, and I think when we talk about fundamental ski operation, um, if we just were a ski area, we would absolutely be focusing on.00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:36.000Jason Bays: lift queuing, but we have to do that, like, we have to execute that every day because we are a ski area, um, and that's core to our business, and so that's important. Um, then we added, once we got queuing, uh, uh, correct, we added surprise and delights. Lift, uh, chocolate chip cookies were massively popular.00:48:36.000 --> 00:49:04.000Jason Bays: We handed out over 15,000 chocolate chip cookies this winter at the Stevenson lift line. And so, you know, then it becomes fun, right? Then it's the hospitality side of the business of how do we engage with our guests now that we have full chairs going up for the most part off of the Stevenson and the Black Bear and the Sun Bowl. So we hired extra associates to do that, to surprise and delight, to help our guests.00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:42.000Stuart Winchester: Cool.00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:20.000Jason Bays: The one other thing I would just share is Sunbowl is a great example. How many people get down to the Sunbowl and have never ridden a lift before? And so you need that extra human touch to be able to help. It's not even just putting people in groups of four. It's just helping them with like, here's where you go to load the lift. Here's what you do.00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:14.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:33.000Jason Bays: Um, I think that that investment in our people to provide that service to our guests is very well worth it, and it's the difference between someone having a bad experience getting on a lift and never coming back.00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:43.000Jason Bays: or having a great experience, feeling well cared for, and wanting to try again. Um, and so that, that, that was, um, you know, I think that's a core, um, focus for us.00:49:43.000 --> 00:50:02.000Stuart Winchester: So, one of the ways that I can tell the resort is being run by a skier, in addition to all the things you just said, and your passion for the minutiae of things like lift lines, which I share, is that you're cutting 3 new trails in a resort that's 60 years old, and I love that. So, talk us through these trails, Jason. I'll do my best to trace them.00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:08.000Stuart Winchester: on the trail map. I don't have the updated trail map, I don't know if you've created it yet, but talk us through these three trails.00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:25.000Jason Bays: Yeah, so we're really excited. Look, this, you know, came after, you know, the so many guests, new guests that visited us at Camelback this past season. We said, you know what, let's do something fun and exciting. And like, you know, you think about how.00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:43.000Jason Bays: Um, yeah, I just, you know, if someone said, anyone puts in a new trail, uh, the skier in me wants to drive to that resort, no matter how big or small, and be like, alright, like, let's do it. Um, and our team feels, uh, you know, much of the same way. So, um, that being said, uh, we had a lot of natural snowfall this year, so…00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:33.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, sure. Yeah.00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:59.000Jason Bays: I was acutely paying attention to where people were skiing when we had natural snowfall, where they wanted to go, and then, you know, maybe following those lines, too, and seeing what the fun was about. So, my point to all of that is, we said, let's create some, and I think for Camelback, too.00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:15.000Jason Bays: it's very, um, you know, we wanted to create something that was sort of unique. I didn't want to just put in, like, regular trails that, A, we don't have a lot of space for regular trails, and B, um, we really wanted to create sort of unique experience. So, right underneath Black Bear, um, in between Sullivan and John Bailey there.00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:30.000Jason Bays: um, there's a, um, there's a chute, um, where the old Alpine Slide used to go. Basculus goes back into Rocket, uh, but underneath there is some really fun rolling terrain. Like, it's, it's because the mountain, the, uh, Alpine Slide.00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:54.000Jason Bays: back in the day did had several dips and curves and so we're going to lean into those dips and curves and create something sort of fun that you can get some you know launch some airtime off of if you want or carve a turn over it but it'll have some some really nice terrain variation in a way that most trails at Camelback don't have and they're coming off of an expert trail there so.00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:06.000Jason Bays: um, gives, uh, you know, anyone skiing Asp, Hump, Rocket, um, or Basilisk would be able to reach that trail, um, and, uh, and be able to, uh, just have a little bit more excitement on the way back down.00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:08.000Jason Bays: Um…00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:20.000Jason Bays: Upper Cleopatra there, if you go to the, uh, where the U is, uh, or where Upper is, we're gonna cut a trail through the woods there that's going to end up on the bottom of Big Pocono.00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:21.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:31.000Jason Bays: Um, so it's gonna go down and across. So, um, that… um, and I see where your cursor is. If you go to the… where it says Upper on Upper Cleopatra.00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:29.000Stuart Winchester: So, like, here? Or…00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:32.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, upper…00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:54.000Jason Bays: So, Big Pocono, that's Uncle B. Yeah, right there. Yep, we're going through there. Yeah, so that's gonna be, that's a narrow blue square. So, you know, I think one of the things that's fun for us is we're gonna create a blue square there. That used to be a trail back in the 60s and 70s, fun fact, when Walter Foger was designing Camelback.00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:37.000Stuart Winchester: Upper… oh, this one. Okay, so you're cutting through here?00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:39.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool. Okay.00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:51.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool.00:52:54.000 --> 00:53:09.000Jason Bays: Um, that being said, um, the… actually, it got filled in with pine trees, so it's gonna be really cool, because there's pine trees on both sides. Um, we made it narrow, so we kept the pine trees, um, and so that's gonna be a really fun, um, sort of narrow… I think about, like, the, um.00:52:58.000 --> 00:52:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:03.000Stuart Winchester: That's cool. It's pretty.00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:26.000Jason Bays: the ending of Jay Peak with some of the blues at the very bottom there by Interstate. We're trying to sort of have that, obviously in a much smaller zone, have that same effect, though, where you're feeling like you're really in the trees, and you've got some nice twists and turns to it. It's not terribly steep.00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:13.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:44.000Jason Bays: Um, two things on that trail. One is, it takes traffic off of Honeymoon Lane, which is a main boulevard, it pushes it onto the Sphinx, which has much more trail capacity, which is great, um, comfortable carrying capacity, and secondarily, um, on weekends, we're gonna have a hot chocolate, um, hut that people can ski up to.00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:52.000Jason Bays: Um, and get shots of hot chocolate, um, as well, so we're excited to, um, uh, to offer that to our guests. We think that'll be really fun.00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:47.000Stuart Winchester: That's cool.00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:53.000Stuart Winchester: That was awesome.00:53:53.000 --> 00:54:17.000Jason Bays: And then the Stevenson, it's going to drop on the cliffhanger side and drop down that lift line and go right down into the Faroe there and follow that lift line. Vermont skiing in a very short array but very much Vermont skiing, that's an intimidating drop. Stevenson for those that may not be familiar has a extremely.00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:55.000Stuart Winchester: And it.00:53:58.000 --> 00:53:59.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:34.000Jason Bays: extremely tight, um, and high, uh, crest of the lift, because the mountain crests, um, really steeply. Well, we're gonna ski that, um, and, uh, and make snow on it, and, uh, and, and, uh, and allow our guests to, uh, um, and allow skiers to, uh, to, to, to test, um, you know, a more narrow.00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:44.000Jason Bays: um, uh, trail up there that has a really great expansive view ov

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Welcome to the Storm's short-form, news-focused podcast. Don't worry, I still write long-form newsletters. Paid subscribers can leave a comment in the article below, or by joining The Storm's chat (also below). I'll respond to some comments in the next episode, which is scheduled for Wednesday, Sept. 16.Transcript updateFollowing up on yesterday's feedback, there are now two transcripts available for each podcast:* Substack's transcript: This transcript is auto-generated when I upload the podcast file to Substack, which is the platform that hosts stormskiing.com. This one is cool because you can click on any block of text and the audio will jump to that point in the conversation. Click the “transcript” button above to access. * Zoom's transcript: Zoom automatically generates this transcript as I record. It should be more or less identical to Substack's transcript, but with names attached to each quote block. The downside of this transcript is that you can't teleport to that point in the pod by clicking on the text block, as you can with Substack's. Another downside: the timestamps are off, since I typically start recording prior to the start of the podcast. I'll work on cleaning this up.So until the robots get smarter, we're stuck with two different transcripts. Both are auto-generated, and I don't proofread either one, as that would be the fastest way to make sure my quick-turnaround, up-to-date podcast turns into a slow-turnaround, out-of-date one. My hope is that Substack will soon hire or invent or weld from raw iron a robot that's smart enough to know who's speaking when. I'll just keep following the robots around and using their hyper-intelligence until they decide to kill me.The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)Stuart Winchester: Welcome to The Storm! I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. It is Tuesday, September 15th, 2026, and I am very excited today to bring you a conversation with the General Manager of Monarch Mountain, Colorado, Chris Haggerty. Now, I've never featured Monarch either on the long-form pod or on the short-form pod.00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:11.000Stuart Winchester: There's never really a reason behind that, other than this is just kind of when it happened. If you run an area, a ski area anywhere in America, I do want to talk to you. I've just never had the opportunity to feature Monarch before, so we will talk about Monarch in just a little bit here.00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:27.000Stuart Winchester: Part of the reason why we're talking about Monarch is because they were one of two Western Mountains to this year join Snow Operating's Snow Pass. Now, the Snow Pass, if you missed the news, it works a lot like the Indy Pass or the Mountain Collective Pass, where you get two days each.00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:37.000Stuart Winchester: at a set number of ski areas. In this case, it's planned to be 14 ski areas for the 2026-27 ski season. And…00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:45.000Stuart Winchester: That product went on sale last Tuesday. I had Snow Operating CEO Joe Heschen on the podcast to talk through it with us.00:10:45.000 --> 00:11:01.000Stuart Winchester: Couple days later, I got an email from Snow Operating saying, Hey, guess what? Our first round of Snow Operating and Snow Triple Play, which are two different products, and I'll explain the difference in a moment, sold out. So we're taking it off sale. We're putting it back on sale next Monday, September 21st.00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:13.000Stuart Winchester: at 10 a.m. Eastern. It will be $349.99 for Snowpass, and $184.99 for Snow Triple Play. Still a pretty good deal. Those products at full price.00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:24.000Stuart Winchester: the prices that Snow Partners gave me, and they anticipate selling both products through Christmas Eve, December 24th, just like they did last year with the first season of the Triple Play.00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:40.000Stuart Winchester: They, the final prices they anticipate will be 3 99 99 for snow pass and 1 99 99 for snow triple play. So you get a nice little discount, particularly with the snow pass, $50 off if you buy it in the next round. So let's talk a little bit about the snow pass because.00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:43.000Stuart Winchester: When this product debuted.00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:53.000Stuart Winchester: I… I've been saying for years, there's 4 national ski passes, right? There's obviously Epic and Icon, and those have some season pass unlimited tiers at certain mountains.00:11:53.000 --> 00:12:08.000Stuart Winchester: And a limited number of days at other partner mountains. And then you have Indian Mountain Collective, which essentially worked the same way, 2 days at each ski area that is on their roster. Uh, Mountain Collective is more expensive, tends to be your bigger, more high-end resorts, Snowbird, Jackson Hole.00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:23.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Sun Peaks up in Canada. And Indy tended to be the lesser-known ski areas, but still some really dynamite stuff there, and a lot more ski areas. Mountain Collective always has around 30, and Indy is more like 250, not counting their cross-country.00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:36.000Stuart Winchester: ski areas. So, I always thought there was probably room for a fifth national pass, but I wasn't sure, and as time went on, and more and more mountains joined multi-mountain passes.00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:37.000Stuart Winchester: I…00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:41.000Stuart Winchester: I thought, okay, maybe there's not room for a fifth national pass. Maybe everyone who's…00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:44.000Stuart Winchester: who wants to join a pass has, because I know Indy, uh.00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:58.000Stuart Winchester: Now, I'm not saying they don't have standards, but they'll let just about anybody on the pass just to help them get that exposure and that national marketing. But Snow Operating, the outfit that owns Mountain Creek in New Jersey and the indoor big snow ski area in New Jersey, they launched.00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:15.000Stuart Winchester: their Snow Pass, and it's a pretty good roster. Here, I'm gonna share my screen for those of you watching on video, and if you're not watching on video, don't worry, I'm gonna talk through it. So, here's the Snow Triple Play East roster, and here's the Snow Pass roster. Now, the Snow Pass has 14 ski areas on it.00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:18.000Stuart Winchester: And you get 2 days at each ski area.00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:22.000Stuart Winchester: The Snow Triple Play has…00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:27.000Stuart Winchester: 23 total ski areas on it, and you get 3 days total.00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:43.000Stuart Winchester: across all 23 ski areas. That's why it's so much less expensive. The most days you can use at any ski area is 2, so you can't buy this as a 3-pack Force A Gore Mountain, alright? So, that's the first important.00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:59.000Stuart Winchester: distinction is that Snow Triple Play is a much more limited basket of days. You also don't want to assume that they have the same roster. Just because something's on Snow Pass doesn't mean it's on Snow Triple Play, and vice versa. Snow Triple Play right now has a pretty…00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:15.000Stuart Winchester: Big roster that I wish was on the, uh, Snow Pass, because it has Jiminy Peak in, uh, Massachusetts, and also Cranmore in New Hampshire, which is jointly owned. It has Platykill up in the New York Catskills.00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:30.000Stuart Winchester: It has all these summit ski areas around Quebec. It has Bromont, one of the great eastern townships ski areas. Uh, so that's Snow Triple Play. Snow Triple Play does not have anything in the west. It's all east. It's all east coast, either eastern Canada or eastern New York.00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:45.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Snow Pass has… it's a pretty interesting roster, and it's a great roster for a very particular type of skier. Now, it does have two ski areas in the West, uh, Snow King, which has been controversial, I'm gonna set that aside, and Monarch, which we'll talk about in a moment.00:14:45.000 --> 00:15:00.000Stuart Winchester: The core of the Snow Pass, and the reason why it makes sense, is because of the south to north line of ski areas that it offers. So if you buy the Snow Pass, again, goes back on sale for $349.99 next Monday, September 21st.00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:05.000Stuart Winchester: You would get two days each at Bel Air, which is in New York's Catskills.00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:07.000Stuart Winchester: Gore.00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:16.000Stuart Winchester: higher up in the Adirondacks, and Whiteface, which are all owned and run and operated by the state, all fantastic ski areas. So it's 2 days at each of those, that alone would be worth $350.00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:33.000Stuart Winchester: Then you add in the fact that you get two days at Mountain Creek, which is right there in New Jersey, uh, two days at the indoor snow dome, big snow American dream. Uh, if you have kids, two days at Butternut and two days at Mount Southington in Connecticut. Uh, Butternut is in Massachusetts. They're both day drive distance from New York City.00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:42.000Stuart Winchester: Let them wander around, let them explore. They're both, uh, especially Butternut. It's very up-to-date, very modern lifts, very, very well-run ski area. So…00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:45.000Stuart Winchester: You have a really great little, you know.00:15:46.000 --> 00:16:03.000Stuart Winchester: 5, 6, 7 ski areas that really make sense. Now, Ski Martok doesn't really make sense. It's all the way up in the middle of nowhere in the, in the Atlantic provinces in, in Canada. Uh, and, and Pleasant Mountain makes less sense. It's, it's up in Maine and, uh, harder to get to from, from the folks who would likely buy this as.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:13.000Stuart Winchester: But what you have to ask yourself is, okay, the snow pass, that's a pretty good deal, right? It's $349.99 for 2 days each of 14 mountains. Then you look at Indy.00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:16.000Stuart Winchester: And Indy Pass is 254.00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:34.000Stuart Winchester: uh, alpine ski areas, and it just went off sale for $429 for the base pass. So, it would be 2 days each at all of these, and the… the plus pass, the ND plus pass, was $469. It had no blackouts. Now, the other thing to know about Snow Triple Play.00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:50.000Stuart Winchester: and snow passes, there are a lot of blackouts, okay? So, a lot of these are holidays, you probably expect that. Uh, you know, here I see Big Snow, Oak Mountain, Plattekill, a lot of holiday blackouts, Butternut holiday blackouts, Gore, uh, Bel Air. Bel Air, though, you want to stop.00:16:50.000 --> 00:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: Bel Air is blacked out every Saturday and Sunday. That's a big deal, because when do you probably want to go to Bel Air if you're someone skiing around with your little kids? Probably on a Saturday or Sunday. So, you want to be really careful and really look at these, uh, these blackout dates before you pull the trigger.00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:09.000Stuart Winchester: on the snow pass. So…00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:14.000Stuart Winchester: So if you have a snow pass, I I'm calling it.00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:18.000Stuart Winchester: A national pass, kind of, uh…00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:24.000Stuart Winchester: out of anticipation, right? It's more of a, I think they'll get there, sort of designation, because right now.00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:40.000Stuart Winchester: it's not really a national pass, right? You have one small skier in Wyoming, one small skier in Colorado. Is someone who lives in New York's metro really going to travel to Colorado just to ski that because they have a snow pass, right? Because it's not cheap to get up to Colorado.00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:56.000Stuart Winchester: And there's a lot of much bigger mountains out there. So… so I think that Snow Pass, much like Indy did when it started in 2019, will grow into a national… a true national pass. Uh, for now, just based on the reputation of the operators, uh, the fact that I think that they will be able to grow this thing, the fact that I…00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:11.000Stuart Winchester: know their relationships with folks all around the country, and how much folks like working with them, I am assuming that this pass will grow up, and if it does, Monarch will be the OG Western partner. So, let's talk more about Monarch now, and I'm gonna bring.00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:13.000Stuart Winchester: Chris Haggerty in.00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:17.000Stuart Winchester: And we will, uh… Chris, how you doing?00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:20.000Chris Haggerty: I'm doing well today, Stuart. How are you?00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:37.000Stuart Winchester: I'm doing great. All right, you passed the sound check, so I'm going to give you an intro here. Joining us now is the general manager of Monarch Mountain, Colorado. Monarch has six chairlifts serving 1,017 acres of terrain, including the 377-acre no-name expansion that opened last winter.00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:44.000Stuart Winchester: Monarch's 10,727-foot base elevation is the third highest in American skiing.00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:59.000Stuart Winchester: Prior to taking the top job at Monarch in 2024, he spent 21 years as general manager of Mountain Creek, New Jersey. Chris Haggerty is my guest. Chris, welcome to The Storm. Awesome to connect with you. I've really been wanting to spotlight Monarch for a long time now, and I'm so hyped we get to.00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:10.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah. Thanks for having me, and I'm excited to be here and chat Monarch. It's a special place, so excited to share some discussion about it.00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:23.000Stuart Winchester: So, the New Jersey to Colorado pipeline is maybe not necessarily a well-trod one, although there are a surprising amount of IntraWest vets working in the ski industry because of its relationship with IntraWest, but talk to us about…00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:40.000Stuart Winchester: Getting to Monarch, and you were taking over for Randy Stroud, super experienced guy, he was retiring, uh, he'd been there 23 years, a decade as GM, and he stayed on, I believe, for, for a year. So, talk to us about going from New Jersey, where they have a lot of snowmaking, because they have to.00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:41.000Chris Haggerty: Mmhm.00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:47.000Stuart Winchester: to Monarch, where they have no snowmaking, and just what that adjustment period was like, and how you settled into the role.00:19:48.000 --> 00:20:07.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, just a quick story is that, you know, as you mentioned, I was at Mountain Creek for a long time, and, you know, really where I found my love for the ski industry, and after college, I had taken a trip out to Colorado and got my first taste of, like.00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:12.000Chris Haggerty: the Rockies, right? So it's always been something in the back of my mind. Um…00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:28.000Chris Haggerty: And I ended up stumbling upon Monarch. I hadn't been to Monarch before, and I was like, oh, this place looks pretty cool. It definitely screamed the ski independent. I definitely wanted to.00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:50.000Chris Haggerty: you know, if I was going to relocate, wanted to find an area where the resort and the local community both had that kind of just feeling of community and stuff. So a monarch was it. And I was blessed to step in after Randy Stroud, and we shared a season together. So I got to learn a lot of institutional knowledge from him.00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:58.000Chris Haggerty: Um, but also bring my viewpoints coming from New Jersey in an area where, you know, we're not…00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:15.000Chris Haggerty: maybe blessed with natural snow. Um, so last year was, like, a challenging winter, and, um, I was ready for it, because I was like, man, 120 inches, like, if you gave me that in New Jersey, we'd be celebrating for years, right? So, um, you know, just kind of a unique perspective, but…00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:21.000Chris Haggerty: um, definitely happy to be here, and just pumped to keep the Monarch kind of spirit going forward.00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:37.000Stuart Winchester: So you've been there for a couple years, one full year as GM, and one of the… there's been tons of stuff coming out of Monarch, it's amazing for a small ski area, which is why I wanted to get you on. So you recently joined the Snow Pass, one of two Western partners to join the Snow Pass, which gives pass holders.00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.000Chris Haggerty: Thank you.00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:54.000Stuart Winchester: Two days at Monarch. I don't think there's blackouts on that, but correct me if I'm wrong now. Now, Multimon Pass has been around for years and almost everybody in Colorado is on either Epic or Icon if they're large and if they're small, a lot of them have joined Indy. So the option has been there for years.00:21:54.000 --> 00:22:00.000Stuart Winchester: Why was it finally time for Monarch to join a multi-mountain pass, and why the snow pass?00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:15.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, two parts there. I think on the, I mentioned it before, we're ski independent as our tagline, right? Part of independence is like the definition is freedom.00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:19.000Chris Haggerty: Right? Like, you make your own choices. You do what you wanna do.00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:31.000Chris Haggerty: we've been approached in the past for IndyPass, and, you know, it wasn't right for us because it kind of went against our spirit of being independent. Like, we want to be able to work with who we…00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:43.000Chris Haggerty: who we choose at any given moment, um, and that just isn't something that, um, is available through the Unipass, so… so we've passed on that. Um, we were even approached about it this year. Um…00:22:43.000 --> 00:23:00.000Chris Haggerty: As far as Snowpass goes, they respect that. They're all about, hey, you want to work with XYZ Pass, go for it. And obviously, I've spent some time working with the Snow Partners group.00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:05.000Chris Haggerty: You know, from my perspective, that group is all about, um…00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:17.000Chris Haggerty: you know, rising tides lifts all boats, right? And, um, you know, for me personally, they've opened doors for me, right? And helped me throughout growing in my career, so, um…00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:40.000Chris Haggerty: We're down.00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:52.000Stuart Winchester: I want to share, because you've sort of created your own… I'm sharing my screen now, if you can see that, and hopefully the folks watching can as well, and if you're listening, I'll talk through it. So, Monarch has…00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:46.000Chris Haggerty: Thank you.00:23:52.000 --> 00:24:07.000Stuart Winchester: not joined a pass, necessarily, but you've kind of built your own pass, and what I have on the screen right now is a list of Monarch's reciprocals, and it's a pretty amazing pass all in and of itself, so if you buy a Monarch season pass, which I believe now is, what, $6.59, less if you renew.00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:24.000Stuart Winchester: It comes with a lot of reciprocal days. Some of the big ones that people probably are really attracted to, 3 days at A-Basin, 3 days at Copper. Now there's blackouts on that, but still, it's freaking Copper Mountain. Uh, 3 days at Purgatory. And then, uh, 3 days each at all of the Mountain Capital Partners-owned skiers, which Purgatory.00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:08.000Chris Haggerty: Mm-hmm.00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:16.000Chris Haggerty: I'll do that.00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:25.000Chris Haggerty: Yes.00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:39.000Stuart Winchester: Also, Arizona Snowball. And there's a bunch more. I don't want to list them all, given our time constraints here today. But talk about this reciprocal program, because essentially, you're saying you're going to give pass holders of all these mountains.00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:34.000Chris Haggerty: Yes.00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:38.000Chris Haggerty: Sure.00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:46.000Stuart Winchester: free visits to Monarch in exchange for your pass holders getting free visits there, so…00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:42.000Chris Haggerty: Oh.00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:44.000Chris Haggerty: Yes.00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:52.000Stuart Winchester: whatever you did or didn't like about IndyPass, it does pay per visit, so what was attractive about.00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:49.000Chris Haggerty: Just a second.00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:57.000Stuart Winchester: this, and why did it make sense to do these free visit exchanges with other ski areas?00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:15.000Chris Haggerty: We look at it as other skiers are not our competition, right? There's 350 million people roughly in the United States. Less than 5% actually ski or snowboard, right? So there's a lot of people out there that just need to be introduced into the sport.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:17.000Chris Haggerty: Um…00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:23.000Chris Haggerty: rather than trying to fight for visits between resorts. So… so one of the things is just…00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:39.000Chris Haggerty: How do we get more people skiing and snowboarding, which is obviously a huge conversation you could talk about forever. But with this one, it's just like, hey, these are other resorts that are interested in also giving their pass holders as well as ours.00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:10.000Chris Haggerty: allow our pass holders to try each out while still knowing that, like most people that have a copper pass, they're not migrating to Monarch because they came here for two days.00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:28.000Chris Haggerty: they're bought a Copper Pass for a reason, they love that, and they're like, yeah, if I could get two days over at Monarch, cool. Same thing with our Monarch guests, like, they… they… they love Monarch, they want most of their days to be here, and if we could break it up for them, um, you know, a couple times a year, or they could go to A-Basin and Copper, then.00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:17.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:37.000Chris Haggerty: That adds a lot of value to them and gives them that flexibility to move around and go where it works for them.00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:52.000Stuart Winchester: You know, Monarch is small by Colorado standards, but it always surprised me to see that it actually does have a pseudo national following. And I get emails from people all over the country that say they buy the Monarch Pass because it gives them all those reciprocals and they come out and they like to support the small ski area.00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:59.000Stuart Winchester: I want to get your take on something here, Chris. I'm going to share my screen again, and I want to share a chart that I made.00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:14.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, so, so this is a chart of Monarch's skier visits since 1997, up to 2024 to 25, right? And I've compiled these from all kinds of different places, and I have a little bit of a gap there. But as you, as you see right here, they've been going steadily up, right?00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:29.000Stuart Winchester: So, so you were averaging below $200,000 for most of the, of the 2010s, you know, much lower some years, and now you're pretty steadily adding, averaging over $200,000. Now, last year, I don't have your numbers, I'm, I'm sure that they were, uh, pretty bad, but.00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:33.000Stuart Winchester: You know, in relation to what your past numbers were.00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:35.000Stuart Winchester: So here's my question.00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:48.000Stuart Winchester: Monarch was supposed to be one of the ski areas that got squeezed out by Epic, squeezed out by Icon. That was one of the big worries. Uh, independent ski areas can't compete. We're seeing the opposite, because I've put some things on this timeline.00:27:48.000 --> 00:28:04.000Stuart Winchester: So, for example, 2007, IntraWest buys Steamboat. Uh, 2008, the Epic Pass launches. 2009, Powder buys Copper. Uh, the Mountain Collective launched in 2012. Uh, Mountain Capital Partners bought Purgatory in 2015. Powder bought Eldora the following year.00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:21.000Stuart Winchester: Uh In 2017, Alterra combined Steamboat and Winter Park in 2018, they launched the icon pass. Uh And then we had the 20% epic price cut in 2022. So all these things you think, ok, Vale and Alterra putting their mountains on sale. These are big world famous mountains, Steamboat Vale Mountain.00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:25.000Stuart Winchester: Monarch must be getting crushed. No, it's not. Why?00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:45.000Chris Haggerty: I think it's a couple of reasons. Number one is we've just stayed true to who we are. And as the population has grown in the front range, like since 2010, Denver and Colorado Springs have grown by about 20%.00:28:45.000 --> 00:29:00.000Chris Haggerty: Right? So there's just more people, um, that are finding Monarch, and they're, they're like, wow, we like this, this is what we want. You know, you also throw in the fact that, um, I-70, for those in Colorado, are pretty familiar with, like, the traffic that is.00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:17.000Chris Haggerty: created there on the weekends and it's not for everybody. So thankfully the drive to Monarch currently is a pretty attractive one, a lot less traffic. And I give credit to our ownership group, our current ownership group. They bought the resort in.00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:33.000Chris Haggerty: 2002. And part of it was, you know, a little bit of a passion project. Right? Like, they had come here and just really liked the vibe at Monarch and and wanted to protect that. And what they've been able to do is, number one, protect it.00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:53.000Chris Haggerty: Um, by not selling, you know, to, to one of the larger players, um, to just investing into our, our core, um, like deferred maintenance projects and those types of things, and then being really committed to the no name project, which we talked about and, and making sure timing was right on that and.00:29:53.000 --> 00:30:11.000Chris Haggerty: Um, that we were a healthy company before we jumped into that, so we didn't need a lifeline from, you know, someone else. So, um, there's kind of a lot of pieces that go into it. Um, and it's also worth noting that, like, our pass holders, like, and I think this goes to the growth, like, once people find us.00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:25.000Chris Haggerty: Um, our pass holder, uh, renewal rate is about 85% every year. Um, and the industry standard, depending on where you, you know, who you ask, it's somewhere between, like, 55% and 62%.00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:42.000Chris Haggerty: Um, and, and most of the 15% that we lose as we've dug into it is because of, uh, we have a lot of season pass holders from Fort Carson, um, military base outside of Colorado Springs, and they've just moved out of the area, right? So, um, I think our growth is partly due to, like.00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:49.000Chris Haggerty: Once people come here and they discover it and they love it and they just keep coming back and we're just building upon that.00:30:49.000 --> 00:31:06.000Stuart Winchester: So you have owners that are willing to invest and that's really important. And Randy Stroud, I interviewed him, not on the podcast, but just for an article a couple of years ago. And he told me, and I'm not sure if this ended up being true, but their intention was to pay for the entire no name expansion in cash, including a brand new SkyTrak.00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:22.000Stuart Winchester: triple chair, or Doppelmayr, I can't remember what it was offhand, but regardless, it spoke to a very stable operation. Now, meanwhile, you still have some pretty old lifts, some pretty old infrastructure on the front side of the mountain, and recently Monarch's.00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:36.000Stuart Winchester: Master Development Plan was accepted by the U.S. Forest Service, which, for the listeners, just means that they said, okay, we'll let you consider doing these things on a project-by-project basis in the future. I have a lot of questions about the Master Plan, but first.00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:52.000Stuart Winchester: I want to focus on one that you called out, that Monarch Mountain called out in its first blog post announcing acceptance of the Master Plan, and it was about snowmaking. And Dan Torsell, the longtime GM of Ski Cooper, told me a long time ago when he came on this pod that.00:31:52.000 --> 00:32:04.000Stuart Winchester: that Ski Cooper and Monarch were the only big lift-surf ski areas in Colorado that don't have snowmaking. I think Silverton is too, but that sometimes gets lost in the shuffle. So, uh, you have it in your master development plan.00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:19.000Stuart Winchester: to a sort of rudimentary snowmaking system that would allow you to open early. But, this is a quote from your blog, quote, Before anyone panics when they read about snowmaking, let me assure you that Monarch is committed to remaining 100% all natural.00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:37.000Stuart Winchester: Snowmaking has been a part of our previous MDPs, Master Development Plan, and we have chosen not to implement it as we truly believe that natural snow provides the best skiing experience. This continues to be the case as snowmaking is in the plan to cover all bases, but we will not implement anything unless Mother Nature gives us no other choice.00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:40.000Stuart Winchester: Care to expand upon that at all?00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:53.000Chris Haggerty: Definitely. And yeah, and we are committed to that. And I actually, last summer, I spoke in front of some of the locals and pass holders, and when I let them know that we were committed to.00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:43.000Stuart Winchester: Or elaborate.00:32:53.000 --> 00:33:09.000Chris Haggerty: 100% all natural. That was the loudest cheer we got all day. So, like, that's what our, that's what our guests want. That's what we want. Um, as far that, you know, snowmaking has come a long way, and, and it is a necessity for a bunch of resorts.00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:19.000Chris Haggerty: Um, we're not at that point, um, and we're gonna push as far as we can, um, leaning into, like, snow farming and everything else before we ever, um.00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:35.000Chris Haggerty: have snow… have snowmaking. But, you know, in the Master Development Plan, it's in there because, like, part of putting things into that document is because it's a conceptual document. It's, like, it's designed to be a 15-year document. If it's not in there.00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:51.000Chris Haggerty: The Forest Service really doesn't even consider something. So if 15 years from now we're like, we need to put snowmaking in and it's not in there, we'd have some challenges. I will say our base elevation being basically 10,800 feet.00:33:51.000 --> 00:34:02.000Chris Haggerty: has helped us out, right? Like, as weather patterns has changed, and temperatures have rised, and winters are, you know, different every year, um…00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:13.000Chris Haggerty: we've been pretty lucky because of that base elevation, where we're… we are seeing snow, where other resorts are seeing some of that other precipitation falling, right? So, um…00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:30.000Chris Haggerty: you know, and then I mentioned the snow farming, like, we're… we're gonna do everything we can, like, on that side of things, right? And that's all the way from, like, fences strategically placed throughout the mountain, whether they're permanent or temporary, to catch the snow when the winds are coming from whatever direction.00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:47.000Chris Haggerty: And we do early season, we take the snow in the parking lots and we plow it all up and get it into one of the corners and then our groomers take it from there and start to build our base in the base area. So we have some different techniques to try to insulate us as much as possible.00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:53.000Chris Haggerty: And we're going to keep going that way as long as Mother Nature allows us to.00:34:53.000 --> 00:35:09.000Stuart Winchester: So snowmaking, it sounds like, is Monarch's emergency parachute. Meanwhile, there are a lot of big chairlift upgrades outlined on the master development plan. So Monarch has had substantially the same footprint for decades until last season's snowmaking upgrade.00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:24.000Stuart Winchester: And like I said before, more and more skier visits, and you were still running, with the exception of the 1999 Pioneer lift, the quad that was put in, with a lot of older double chairs. So Breezeway is a 1968 hall, Garfield is a 1969 hall, Panorama is a 1980 hall.00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:40.000Stuart Winchester: Tumbling as a 1981 hall. Those are all doubles. Now they've all gotten new drive terminals. So I understand they're, they're more modern in their actual functioning than, than in their look. However, the capacity is probably not a whole lot more than maybe it would have been. The master development plan proposes.00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:43.000Stuart Winchester: Replacing all of these with.00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:54.000Stuart Winchester: is advanced of a lift as a high-speed quad. Now, I realize you wanna… maybe the same reason as somebody… you say high-speed quad because you can always take it down, easier to go down than up, but talk us through…00:35:54.000 --> 00:36:05.000Stuart Winchester: your lift upgrade plan, and whether you think that high speed would be good for Monarch, or if you think that maybe fixed grip is the way you want to stay.00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:09.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, fixed script is, you know.00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:24.000Chris Haggerty: Well, let me back up. A lot of that is in there because it's got to be in there if we choose to do that. And with no name opening, there's a lot of unknowns as far as, like, how is that going to change skier traffic around the mountain, right?00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:41.000Chris Haggerty: One of the things we worked with the SE group, so they're, you know, a company that helps ski areas, right, with all sorts of development projects, big and small. And one of the things that they do is they do this density analysis, right? And it's a complicated, you know.00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:57.000Chris Haggerty: Analysis that takes on a lot of different data, but basically it's like they look at your uphill capacity based on the speed of the lift, the size of the lift, the length of the trip up, the time, and then what terrain it accesses from that lift.00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:14.000Chris Haggerty: And, like, an optimal score where, like, you have, like, perfect harmony from uphill and downhill is, like, a hundred percent. If you're below that, you're actually putting fewer people up the hill, that the downhill terrain can handle.00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:34.000Chris Haggerty: Monarch, in our current state, sits at a 56%. So basically, like, when you ski the runs at Monarch, even on our busiest day, because of the capacity that we have at our lifts, like, you have, like, semi-private runs, right? If we were to do all of our lift upgrades in the 2025 MDP.00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:49.000Chris Haggerty: we would actually get to an 84% density analysis. So even still, you wouldn't feel overcrowded on the runs. So knowing that, we're like, wow, well, we don't need to right away push for any kind of high speed lifts.00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:58.000Chris Haggerty: Um, and in fact, again, things that our guests like about them is twofold. Number one, it's like…00:37:58.000 --> 00:38:11.000Chris Haggerty: that slow metering from a fixed grip lift just adds, like, this extra time, right? Like, part of why we ski and snowboard is because we like to just disconnect, right, from reality for a little while and, like, be out in nature and, like.00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:21.000Chris Haggerty: you know, our guests like taking a step back and slowing things down here, and it feels like things are just moving a little slower. And second, one thing that we feel is like a…00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:36.000Chris Haggerty: a strong differentiator for us is, um, having a fixed grip lift. Our lift operators have to be at, like, the load point, and, um, you know, bumping the chairs and helping our guests on, and.00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:40.000Chris Haggerty: It's this, like, human interaction piece that, like.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:56.000Chris Haggerty: You don't get everywhere else, especially with some of the newer lifts where, you know, it's everything's so automated, um, which has its value, but for us, again, with who Monarch is and taking that step back in time a little bit like that, that face-to-face interaction.00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:14.000Chris Haggerty: like, so many of our reviews are constantly calling out our lift operators, like, oh, yeah, I remember so-and-so, like, he's awesome, he helped me on, or he just said hello, or he remembered what kind of skis I'm wearing, or told me about this secret powder stash, which… another benefit of a slower uphill capacity is, like.00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:23.000Chris Haggerty: Monarch, even though it's smaller in size, doesn't get tracked out. Like, you get powder turns at the end of the day on a powder day.00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:34.000Stuart Winchester: So the, I'm gonna share my screen to, to talk about this next bit. So those are the lift upgrades that you're proposing. There's also two, and I'm, I, so for those watching.00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:49.000Stuart Winchester: On YouTube or stormskiing.com, I have the master development plan, conceptual plan up. There's also two infill lifts. Okay, so there would be this planned NNB lift, which is a redundant lift in the No Name Basin expansion. This is the new lift that opened last year. And then there's this…00:39:49.000 --> 00:40:04.000Stuart Winchester: Plan, divide, express. So, again, it's two more lifts on the same footprint. And I didn't see in the master plan, maybe I missed it, that you do have all this cat skiing terrain over here, so…00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:10.000Stuart Winchester: So, talk us through the logic of putting in more lists to serve the same amount of terrain, and if you've considered.00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:18.000Stuart Winchester: moving lift surf skiing into the cat skiing, as Targi did with its peaked mountain expansion a couple of years ago.00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:37.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, so no name is actually was a part of our cat skiing terrain. So we did take a little bit of that. That redundant lift out there is just because we'll see what happens, how many people just access the terrain and no name. And if we ever need a second lift there, then.00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:24.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:55.000Chris Haggerty: um, we'll consider it. As far as further into cat skiing terrain, um, you know, our current MDP outlines our next 15 years, so we're not looking to push any further into that. Um, we also have, um, the Mirkwood terrain, which is a little bit of a hike-to terrain.00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:04.000Chris Haggerty: Um, between, like, the front side and no name, and we get… that's… that's the area we most commonly get asked about a lift, and uh…00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:12.000Chris Haggerty: I will tell you from my, uh, initial conversations with owners, it's… it's not a, um…00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:27.000Chris Haggerty: the answer isn't no, we're not putting a lift there, it's a expletive no, we're not putting a lift there. Um, we take pride in having, like, being a small mountain, but still offering, like, all these other things, right? Which one being hike to terrain, um, which is pretty cool for…00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:31.000Chris Haggerty: a small mountain like this. And then that, um…00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:41.000Chris Haggerty: the Divide Express, right, that would get us all the way from the base area to the summit on the front side. Um, that… that is one that we've, you know, had some…00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:55.000Chris Haggerty: serious discussions about, and, um, you know, it probably… number one, it would just, you know, allow guests to not have to take two lifts to get to the… to the summit on the front side. Um, but also, if we…00:41:55.000 --> 00:42:06.000Chris Haggerty: explore, um, summer operations in the future. You know, having a high-speed, you know, detachable lift gives you more flexibility to do that.00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:13.000Chris Haggerty: So that kind of, you know, would add into that if we get to that point.00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:24.000Stuart Winchester: So let me ask a stupid question, because that's what I'm here for. So Garfield Lyft, as I said, was built in the 60s. Pioneer Lyft came along in 1999. So I would have thought, okay, they cross over each other.00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:41.000Stuart Winchester: Because they, they retroactively built Pioneer and didn't realize it. Uh, I would have thought, hey, the master plan is an opportunity to straighten those out so they don't have to cross over each other. Maybe I'm overthinking it and it's not that complicated, but, but talk about this interesting crisscross pattern you have here and, and why that's where Garfield and Pioneer are slated.00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:25.000Chris Haggerty: Mm-hmm.00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:45.000Stuart Winchester: to continue to exist, even if you were to upgrade their lifts.00:42:47.000 --> 00:43:05.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, I mean, I don't know that I have the best answer. We do have a proposal to shift the base of the bottom terminal of Pioneer uphill a little bit, just because the terrain is a little more desirable there. And obviously, if we needed to add the Divide Express, we need to open that area up.00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:06.000Chris Haggerty: um…00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:21.000Chris Haggerty: but other than that, right, we just kind of… we like the terrain that they serve right now, we don't really have a better spot, so the lifts crisscrossing wasn't like a, oh man, we need to change this. It wasn't something that we were focused on solving, um, in a way.00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:24.000Chris Haggerty: I think it's kind of a little cool, I guess.00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:40.000Stuart Winchester: I do like criss-crossing lifts, so I'm glad we're doing this one a video, because every time I bring this up, I get tomatoes thrown at me. Uh, Monarch skier visits have gone up and up, as we said. However, as they've gone up and up, there's still nowhere to stay on the mountain. There never has been. Uh.00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:51.000Stuart Winchester: a philosophical choice? Is that just a practical matter of, hey, the Forest Service owns the land at the base? Is it both? Talk us through why there's nowhere to stay at Monarch as a drive ski area only.00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:55.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, there's a couple of reasons.00:43:56.000 --> 00:44:02.000Chris Haggerty: And, you know, one of them, again, I'll say our pass holders and our guests, like…00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:18.000Chris Haggerty: are pretty vocal about not wanting that, right? Like that's what separates Monarch. We're not that resort that has the big base village. And again, that's not to knock those resorts. I think that that's, you know, I've gone to those resorts as a guest. I think it's awesome.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:38.000Chris Haggerty: I think another side of it for us is we're really focused on our community, right? We're a small mountain ski area and there's a small mountain community 15 miles from where we are that has a really cool, the town of Salida has a really cool downtown, a main street.00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:52.000Chris Haggerty: Um, with a ton of restaurants, a ton of mom-and-pop-owned shops, right? And, um, you know, we're our largest, uh, driver for winter visits, and, and, you know, um…00:44:52.000 --> 00:45:01.000Chris Haggerty: in the wintertime, and we want to make sure we embrace that community. If we moved a village up onto the mountain, like.00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:16.000Chris Haggerty: Salida is going to suffer. All those guests now are going to stay in the lodging up at Monarch versus in town. And we want to be good community partners and be like, no, here, you guys should be the ones to have lodging. And we live.00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:35.000Chris Haggerty: all of us live in the community as well, and we want to see those restaurants, you know, stay active all year round, the mom-and-pop shops, like, you know, thrive. So part of it is just, like, wanting to be a part of something bigger, right, in that larger community, rather than.00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:38.000Chris Haggerty: moving everything up to… to Monarch.00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:53.000Stuart Winchester: So if Snowpass skiers do decide to come out and visit Monarch, they'll stay in Salida, most likely, and drive up that day. So leave us with this, Chris, because Joe Heschen, the CEO of Snow Partners.00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:58.000Stuart Winchester: Said we get so caught up on stats, but stats aren't aren't always the thing and and.00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:04.000Stuart Winchester: when you look statistically at Monarch, it's 1,100 vertical feet.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:21.000Stuart Winchester: Lift serve drop. That's 25th in Colorado. Uh, 1017 acres that ranks 17th in Colorado is bigger than Aspen Mountain. I'll point, I'll point out, uh, it's 308 inch average annual snowfall is good, but it's, it's good for ninth best. It has the third highest base, as I said, but the 12th highest summ.00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:28.000Stuart Winchester: It has those older lifts in a state that has 120 high-speed lifts, and there's nowhere to stay on the mountain, so…00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:34.000Stuart Winchester: I'm just stating those facts, right? So what's your pitch to someone to come.00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:37.000Stuart Winchester: use that snow pass, and try out Monarch.00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:44.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, the big one is to start with, we're 100% natural, right?00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:59.000Chris Haggerty: you want natural snow, it is a definitely a different feel, even as good as snowmaking is these days, like, come check it out. And this, and the second part is, um, the people that are at Monarch are a unique group, right? Like, we're, we're.00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:18.000Chris Haggerty: past the characters, whether you work here or you're a guest here. And, um, we're looking out for each other, right? Like, it's not, um, it's not judgmental, like, no matter what you show up wearing or what your ability is, like, we just want everyone here to have a fun day on the mountain.00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:37.000Chris Haggerty: whether you're the extreme person out in the cat skiing terrain, hiking Mirkwood, the Never Ever, or the SnowTuber, which I love SnowTubers, you know, I think that's who we all are at our core. Um, you know, it's just… it's just a cool vibe that you gotta just come check it out, and our track record's saying that.00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:40.000Chris Haggerty: People love it once they find it. So give it a shot.00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:51.000Stuart Winchester: I'm always telling my readers that these old lifts, these hauls, these riblets, they're not gonna be around for a whole lot longer, right? There's still hundreds in operation, but they don't last forever.00:47:51.000 --> 00:48:08.000Stuart Winchester: And the best thing you can do to memorialize them, you can't really preserve them forever because they're functional machines, right? But go ride them. And right now, Monarch, along with Lost Trail, is probably the best place in the West to go and ride all Old Hall Liftley. And I understand, again, they've been updated.00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:23.000Stuart Winchester: But the aesthetic is similar. So, alright, Chris, look, I gotta take my own advice and get out there and ride those hauls with you this winter. It was really great to talk to you. I really appreciate you coming on. I can't wait to catch up and hopefully make some turns together this winter.00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:27.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, thanks a lot for the time and look forward to seeing you out here at Monarch.00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:29.000Stuart Winchester: All right. Talk to you soon. Thanks so much, Chris.00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:30.000Chris Haggerty: Thank you. Bye.00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:47.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, that was Chris Haggerty, the General Manager of Monarch Mountain. That was really fun, I'm really glad that he came on. Uh, Randy Stroud, just to be clear, the former GM, it's not that he ever didn't want to come on the podcast, it's just that.00:48:47.000 --> 00:49:00.000Stuart Winchester: I covered Monarch in a different way for the story about the expansion. So he was very good to the storm as well. I do want to tell you that today's podcast is brought to you by Profile Search International.00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:08.000Stuart Winchester: If you want to find a great leader for your mountain team, I want to introduce you to the pros at Profile Search International.00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:18.000Stuart Winchester: They are the ski industry talent acquisition experts, and they are the only executive search and recruitment firm in the entire world that is 100% focused on the ski industry.00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:31.000Stuart Winchester: ProfileSearch has used their intimate understanding of skiing and related industries, and of available candidates worldwide, to place hundreds of transformational leaders at the best and most progressive ski areas over the past 30 years.00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:44.000Stuart Winchester: Profile Search has offices in the US and Canada. They find and negotiate with the right leaders for your team, which sometimes you don't even know that you need in this era of online everything and big data. You can reach Profile Search.00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:59.000Stuart Winchester: Directly at ProfileSearch.com, where you will find their email or phone number. You can also send me a note. I will be happy to connect you directly with this expert team. My email address is skiing at substack.com. Alright, we are going to wrap up today.00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:05.000Stuart Winchester: With some reader reaction to yesterday's podcast on…00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:22.000Stuart Winchester: with Midwest skiers, Matt Zabranski, and there wasn't a lot of feedback. I think, number one, because the Midwest doesn't get as much feedback in general, but also because I published this one pretty late, I think I put it out at 8 or 9 at night, and so folks may just have not had a chance.00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:27.000Stuart Winchester: really process it yet. So…00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:30.000Stuart Winchester: Nell says…00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:41.000Stuart Winchester: Midwest Skiers, meaning MidwestSkiers.com, Matthew Zbrensky's site, is a regional treasure. The ride-throughs are so thorough, and what Nell means by that is.00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:52.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Midwest Skiers puts up on their YouTube channel a, hey, look, here's the trail map at, say, Trollhagen, Wisconsin. Here's all 32 trails, whatever it is.00:50:52.000 --> 00:51:03.000Stuart Winchester: and then it rides the reach for the GoPro, and tells you about them, and gives you a really specific breakdown, uh, with some great graphs. So the production quality is really, really good. So, I second that now. Really good.00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:15.000Stuart Winchester: breakdowns of the ski areas from Midwest Skiers. Eric Morris says, great Midwest content, it'd be great to talk to the Dean of Southern Skiing, Randy Johnson, who wrote Southern Snow, the new guide to winter sports.00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:31.000Stuart Winchester: Couldn't agree more, Eric. If you know him, I would love an introduction. I am not acquainted with Mr. Randy Johnson, but I would love to meet him, as the South has certainly been an undercovered region from my point of view, and not on purpose, just because there's…00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:44.000Stuart Winchester: a little different culturally than the rest of the United States from a ski point of view, and I have not sunk as far of roots in there as I would like to, especially since I'm not too far from those ski areas. There was also…00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:47.000Stuart Winchester: We're not getting as much action on the chat, but here's one.00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:57.000Stuart Winchester: question on the chat, and this is not to do with the podcast from yesterday, but I want to talk about it a little. What will it take for Vail Resorts to turn around? That's from Saurabh Jain.00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:06.000Stuart Winchester: And commenter Slappy said, redefine what success looks like and suspend the dividend and stock buyback. Of course, those last two may be non-negotiable.00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:24.000Stuart Winchester: I'm not going to get out of my lane and talk too much about dividends and stock buybacks, though I do like stocks and follow that world nominally. It's certainly nothing that I'm an expert to speak on. What Vail needs to do to turn around, I think, is very simple, and I've said this many, many times.00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:25.000Stuart Winchester: And I've written about it.00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:37.000Stuart Winchester: many times, and we've talked about it on the podcast many times, is they need to treat every single ski resort like it's Vail Mountain, and every single guest like they're the President of the United States. They…00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:40.000Stuart Winchester: They need to make sure that.00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:48.000Stuart Winchester: the experience of a lifetime ethos is transferred to any Skiera, whether it's Beaver Creek.00:52:48.000 --> 00:53:03.000Stuart Winchester: or it's Mad River, Ohio. And that has not always seemed to be the case since Vail Resorts purchased Peak Resorts in 2019 and sort of doubled the size of its owned resort portfolio within a year's span. Now.00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:08.000Stuart Winchester: Certainly, Vail has recently recommitted to.00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:11.000Stuart Winchester: To that sort of quality, and we'll see how that plays out.00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:13.000Stuart Winchester: I think…00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:19.000Stuart Winchester: maybe a little more shuffling with the Epic Pass, uh, maybe a higher-priced.00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:22.000Stuart Winchester: Full pass to to.00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:37.000Stuart Winchester: help traffic some of the more popular ski areas, and maybe some more options. They do a really good job, actually, with the Epic Regionals, with the Tahoe Local, the Northeast Local, and the Summit County Local. So, I think Vail's done a nice job with that. And I think…00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:45.000Stuart Winchester: From my experience, Vail executives, and I've hosted many of them on this podcast. They're very receptive to criticism.00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:47.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and they are…00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:53.000Stuart Winchester: Willing to listen and change and evolve. I'm not sure.00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:57.000Stuart Winchester: If that always comes through.00:53:57.000 --> 00:54:04.000Stuart Winchester: Outside of direct lines of questioning, if that makes sense. So, so the, the owning of mistakes and saying, okay, you know what?00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:19.000Stuart Winchester: we messed up because Paley Peaks was only open 25 days a year in 2021, or whatever it was. There was a year when a lot of its Midwest ski areas were extremely restricted, or the COVID restrictions and everyone else, but the local ski area operators there.00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:24.000Stuart Winchester: we're out competing them. Uh, you know, when Vail first bought Wilmot, Wisconsin.00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:27.000Stuart Winchester: In 2016, there…00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:38.000Stuart Winchester: their… or maybe that was 2012. They bought Afton Alps, Wilmot, and Mount Brighton in some order, two of them in 2012 and one in 2016. Anyway, there was a great article I read that said.00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:49.000Stuart Winchester: what Wilmot skiers can expect, and Wilmot's a small ski area outside of, well, it's broad, it has a lot of lifts, outside of Wisconsin and Chicago, uh, Milwaukee and Chicago.00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:56.000Stuart Winchester: And what they said was, we're gonna bring Western standards to the Midwest, right? And that was very out front. Dale spokespeople were saying that.00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:11.000Stuart Winchester: You never hear them say that anymore, and it's not clear that that is the standard, and I had a very nice time at Wilmot when I went two years ago, and super friendly staff, and all the lifts were running, even though clearly they didn't need to be, because it was a Monday, and hardly anyone was there, so I'm certain they were.00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:19.000Stuart Winchester: losing money on that day, and yet they still did their best to provide an experience. I'm just not…00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:21.000Stuart Winchester: It's just not always…00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:31.000Stuart Winchester: super clear throughout the portfolio, particularly in the Lower Midwest, Indiana, Missouri, Ohio, uh, in some of the Pennsylvania ski areas, Mid-Atlantic.00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:36.000Stuart Winchester: that that this is their operating philosophy. So I think that.00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:38.000Stuart Winchester: I think Vail's better than most…00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:49.000Stuart Winchester: than you would think, scrolling through social media. Uh, in general, I've been to pretty much every Vail resort in North America, other than, I think, the two in Missouri and Paoli Peaks.00:55:49.000 --> 00:56:07.000Stuart Winchester: And I generally have a really good time and a positive experience, and I find the staff friendly, and that's a super important thing to me. I love that Vail puts bars on all the lifts. I love that they're focused on safety in general, that they help police speed. As someone who skis with my kids, that's important to me.00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:13.000Stuart Winchester: So I generally have a pretty good experience. I think…00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:29.000Stuart Winchester: there's a little too much gum in the machine, maybe, when it comes to communicating these things and owning and correcting mistakes. So, anyway, with that, I will leave Vel alone for today, and you're probably wondering why I haven't yet covered the new Slate.00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:44.000Stuart Winchester: of proposed board members by Oasis Capital for Vail Resorts. I don't want to get too into the weeds on stock stuff, but I do have some thoughts on that. I want to wait till I have a little bit more time to break it down.00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:50.000Stuart Winchester: So I thank you for coming today. I hope you enjoyed that podcast episode.00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:58.000Stuart Winchester: If you are not already subscribed to the Storm Skiing newsletter, please click over to stormskiing.com and subscribe.00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:14.000Stuart Winchester: That will come right to your inbox. It is not only podcasts, I do a ton of writing. And if you want to upgrade to a paid subscription to the Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast, that will give you everything below the paywall, which is a lot of really deep analysis.00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:29.000Stuart Winchester: that I do on the lift service ski industry, particularly in North America, and especially in the United States. Also, if you're a paid subscriber to The Storm at stormskiing.com, that is the only way to interact with the podcast, because I'm only reading comments from the.00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:30.000Stuart Winchester: Previous.00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:47.000Stuart Winchester: Day's podcast and only paid subscribers can comment. Only paid subscribers can join the chat, which is the second way that they can interact with the podcast. If you want to rep the storm, we have a swag store. You can buy shirts, hats, et cetera, at stormskiing.myshopify.com.00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:48.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:52.000Stuart Winchester: Please follow me on YouTube. YouTube is…00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:55.000Stuart Winchester: Where we will increasingly.00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:02.000Stuart Winchester: It'll be increasingly important to us, and right now, we don't have that many subscribers there. Uh, everything is going there, but it's just not…00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:12.000Stuart Winchester: made it into the cultural fabric of that site just yet, so please follow me at Storm Ski Journal on YouTube. Also, Instagram, which I post on more during the winter season.00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:27.000Stuart Winchester: I will be back tomorrow, or I'm scheduled to be back tomorrow, with, and this is one a lot of people have asked me for, a conversation with the general manager of what I think was perhaps the most improved ski area in the country last year, Camelback.00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:38.000Stuart Winchester: Pennsylvania. If you're rolling your eyes, if you live out west, I encourage you to tune in anyway, because the story of Camelback is a really good story of how do we do things wrong?Stuff referenced in the pod:Monarch's amazing season pass reciprocal network:A full breakdown of Monarch's U.S. Forest Service masterplan:Conversation with Snow Partners' CEO Joe Hession: Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is going to cover Midwestern skiing whether you like it or not. Don't worry, Colorad-Bro, it's your turn tomorrow.Welcome to the Storm's short-form, news-focused podcast. Don't worry, I will still write newsletters too. To browse a (robot-generated) podcast transcript, click the “transcript” button above - click on any block of text and the audio will jump to that point in the conversation. Paid subscribers can leave a comment in the article below, or by joining The Storm's chat (also below). I'll respond to some comments in the next episode, which is scheduled for Tuesday, Sept. 15.The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the Storm! I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. It is Monday, September 14th, 2026. Welcome to week two of the New Look Storm Skiing Podcast. If you missed last week, I am still doing the longer form pod.00:15:53.000 --> 00:16:08.000Stuart Winchester: But I'm cutting way back on the frequency of those. Instead, I am doing a shorter, news-focused pod that I release more often, and whenever possible, that I release the same day that I record it.00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:11.000Stuart Winchester: And the reason that I'm doing that is because…00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:19.000Stuart Winchester: the world has changed a lot since 2019, when I launched the Storm Skiing podcast, and when I launched it, there really wasn't anything quite like…00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:26.000Stuart Winchester: what I was doing with the long-form audio stories of a ski area's background.00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.000Stuart Winchester: I've done a couple hundred episodes at this point.00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:31.000Stuart Winchester: I feel like…00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:47.000Stuart Winchester: They're evergreen. But what they don't allow me to do is to really talk about what's happening in a ski area right now. Uh Especially when there's a lot of things happening and there's a lot of pieces and parts shuffling around as there is right now in the Midwest.00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:51.000Stuart Winchester: with multi-mountain passes. So, what I'm doing…00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: is I'm trying out a little bit of a new format today. The format… we're gonna experiment, we're gonna play around with it. Sometimes there'll be a guest off the top, sometimes I'll have a take off the top, uh, sometimes I'll have a guest on for a longer period, and that's gonna be the case today.00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:22.000Stuart Winchester: Because right now there is so much happening in the Midwest with multi mountain passes and different mountains leaving and joining is completely changing the landscape there. So I want to bring in someone to talk to us at length about that. We'll do a couple other fun things as well.00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:24.000Stuart Winchester: Let's bring…00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.000Stuart Winchester: I'm in now.00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:35.000Stuart Winchester: And there he is. Can you hear me, Matthew?00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:34.000Matthew Zabransky: Hey, how's it going, Stuart?00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:36.000Matthew Zabransky: I can.00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:41.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, I can't hear you. All right. This is a flub, and this is why I haven't heard her.00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:41.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:45.000Stuart Winchester: Because I am not that smart.00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:49.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, you there?00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:50.000Matthew Zabransky: Can you hear me?00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:52.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, yes, I can. Look at that.00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:54.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay, perfect.00:17:52.000 --> 00:18:07.000Stuart Winchester: The technology known as headphones. Matthew, this is why you're the production guy, and I generally stick to writing, because I'm an idiot. Alright, I want to introduce today the founder of MidwestSkiers.com.00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:13.000Stuart Winchester: He founded that in 2018, and in 2020, founded MWS Productions.00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:29.000Stuart Winchester: He is making all the Midwest content that I was dying for in the 1990s when I was a teenager living and skiing in Michigan, and the ski mags would completely ignore the region and maybe mention Boyne Mountain or Luton once per year, but he makes.00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:20.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:38.000Stuart Winchester: Top quality content. I link to it all the time in my stuff because no one else quite does it, as well as Matthew Zabranski. Matthew, welcome to The Storm. How you doing today?00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:56.000Matthew Zabransky: I am doing fantastic. Stuart, thank you, first of all, for the opportunity, but more importantly, for also repping the Midwest. I think it's such an important, obviously, region, and you have ties to it, I obviously have ties to it as well, so it's great that we're getting recognition, not only, obviously, in our region now, but on the national, even international scale, so…00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:00.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you so much for doing that. I appreciate it. I'm excited to be here.00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I love covering the Midwest, Matthew, and I still make it a point to go back and take a Midwest trip every year, because there's…00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:01.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:27.000Stuart Winchester: when I'm doing this podcast, there's nothing quite like making relationships, like showing up at, you know, a 200 vertical foothill in the boondocks in Minnesota. People are like, okay, I'll talk to this guy, even though, you know, I've never heard of him. So, but you are 100% Midwest-focused. I cover it where I can and whenever I can.00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:21.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:26.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:37.000Stuart Winchester: There is so much happening in the Midwest that we could talk about. I really want to focus today on multi-mountain passes. So…00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:37.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:53.000Stuart Winchester: I'll start by, I'll just set this up and then I'll, and then I'll, I'll let you comment on it. So if you go back about 10 years, there was nothing in the Midwest on multi mountain passes. You know, Vale had started to add a few things to Epic Pass and B Brighton and Afton Alps and Wilmot and such.00:19:53.000 --> 00:20:03.000Stuart Winchester: But the real inflection point came in 2019, when IndiePass came along. 2018, Icon added a couple things. So, right now, I'll give you some stats.00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:09.000Stuart Winchester: Of the 124 ski areas that I have inventoried in the Midwest, that you might have a different count.00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:10.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:15.000Stuart Winchester: They're 117 of those are public. 89 of those are public with aerial lifts.00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:28.000Stuart Winchester: 58 of those, although there's a couple that are just surface toes only, so 58 ski areas in the Midwest are now on a national multi-mountain ski pass. 10 on Epic.00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:32.000Stuart Winchester: 11 on Icon, 37 for Indy. So, so to start out with, Matthew.00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.000Stuart Winchester: How has…00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:47.000Stuart Winchester: the acceptance of the Midwest by multi-mountain national passes change the calculus for skiers as they're planning out their winter in the Midwest, compared to what it was for most of history up until just a few years ago?00:20:47.000 --> 00:21:02.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, it's changed dramatically. It's even going back a little bit further. I think the first initial, if you look at the statistics and you obviously know all this offhand, but back when you go back to Vail's acquisition of Wilmont, Afton.00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:19.000Matthew Zabransky: Brighton back in like 2012. I mean, that's really what started to to kick off this like idea of like. Maybe the Midwest has some legs in it, as far as like developing skiers, and then, you know, bringing them into a pass portfolio that could bring them out west. So that was the very early set, you know, early iteration of this. And then, obviously, as we went along, there wasn't.00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:37.000Matthew Zabransky: too many options outside of just the epic pass. But then, like you mentioned, Indie Pass came in, and I knew, and it's you know, as we dive into this, I do want to do a little disclosure here, and like Indie Pass was my very 1st client from a production side of things. So Doug and I, because I I saw the opportunity like there was an absolute gold mine here. I'm like.00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:33.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:55.000Matthew Zabransky: Because I got to travel around, that's why I started MidwestGears.com, because we were… we were traveling for my wife's job all over the Midwest, and every time we'd go to a new city, Columbus, Akron, I'd be a pass holder at one of these little ski areas, and I'd be like, holy crap, there's a lot of them here, no one's talking about them.00:21:55.000 --> 00:22:15.000Matthew Zabransky: But you know, once you start to realize there was this many, then you're then you're starting to think, okay, like, why isn't somebody coming in here and starting to develop a past that could actually stand on its own. And that's what we've seen the last, I would say, 5 to 10 years. Specifically, we've seen more people traveling around in the Midwest. You'll catch people at any stereo across the Midwest. That's not their home hill, and that's not how it used.00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:27.000Matthew Zabransky: you go ski or one little local place for the most part, you might do your weekend trip up to Boyne or something, but you would never catch people going to some of these really small places, you know, outside of just the local crew there, so it's been really cool to watch people.00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:45.000Matthew Zabransky: travel and discover, more importantly, the different areas, uh, throughout the Midwest. I think a lot of that had to do with IndyPass's push in the Midwest, because, as we're gonna talk about here in a second, it was an absolute auto-buy. Like, there was not even a question about it. From the day it started, when it was, you know, what was that, $99?00:22:45.000 --> 00:23:02.000Matthew Zabransky: up until even just the last year. It was like you almost just were gonna if you lived in the Midwest, and you like skiing, and you don't. You know you like traveling around checking out new things. There was no reason not to buy it. You'd be silly, basically not to, just because how much saturation there was in the Midwest, which I think is going to lead us into our next conversation a little bit here.00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so, so the…00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:15.000Stuart Winchester: Just being on the ground, before we get to the shuffling around, you know, I'd imagine you're pretty connected with a lot of pretty hardcore skiers, pretty frequent skiers.00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:13.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:17.000Stuart Winchester: How much has…00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:24.000Stuart Winchester: that a… a season… a multi-mountain pass becomes something that the person in the Midwest just…00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:40.000Stuart Winchester: considers or, or automatically buys it as compared to several years ago where you might buy your local season pass, but, but you, you probably, like you said, you wouldn't go around. And when I lived in the Midwest, actually, I always appreciated how close the areas were, so I would just kind of bounce around a lot for.00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:36.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:46.000Stuart Winchester: for deal days or whatever, back when those were still a thing. But how automatic has it become?00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:42.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:23:46.000 --> 00:24:01.000Matthew Zabransky: Very. I mean, there's people that have been buying the IndyPass specifically now. Up until this season, it was like they were probably on their fifth year of doing it and just continue to. And to be honest, there wasn't any reason not to because the pricing has stayed relatively affordable.00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:17.000Matthew Zabransky: they keep they kept strengthening their pro, their their product. I mean, like they just kept adding more ski areas in the Midwest. And so in in a lot of times the pass would pay itself off within a couple of visits based off of some of the redemption rates that you'd be getting at some somewhere like Lutz and Snow River.00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:34.000Matthew Zabransky: um, those are all, like, you know, $100 tickets, so you buy… you go there once or twice, you get two days of each of them, and basically that's already done. So if you already had one of those trips kind of on there, and if you lived in Chicago, you're going to Granite Peak usually once or twice a year. If you lived in Minnesota, you're going to Lutz.00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:52.000Matthew Zabransky: So it almost became this thing. And then you shuffle in like nubs, knob, and all that. So it it very much was like, yeah, we're gonna buy it every single year, you know, we might not. And some people are hardcore and going to all the places they could. And some people were just, you know. Hey? I'm gonna buy it because I'm gonna go for a weekend, so I might as well. And then I have this option of going some other places.00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:52.000 --> 00:25:03.000Matthew Zabransky: it was huge. I mean, I don't… of course, I don't have any of the IndyPass numbers, but I would… I would venture to say that the Midwest had to be a very big portion of their portfolio from the sales and redemption standpoint.00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:20.000Stuart Winchester: So the traditional numbers that Indy has given me, and it's been a couple years since Doug Fish provided these round numbers to me, but he told me about half of their sales came in New England, and 25% came in the Midwest, which is a really big number for a national pass. So you figured the other quarter were coming from somewhere else.00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:05.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:16.000Matthew Zabransky: Cool.00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:19.000Matthew Zabransky: For… yeah.00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:25.000Stuart Winchester: I always give Doug Fish credit, because he's a Pacific Northwest guy, and…00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:40.000Stuart Winchester: Western skiers just love to hate on the Midwest. Everyone loves to hate on the Midwest. It's like the national pastime. It's like the safe thing to make fun of, and you know, I hope you take that personally, because I always do, and I really appreciated that Doug.00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:32.000Matthew Zabransky: Is…00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:38.000Matthew Zabransky: I do.00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:55.000Stuart Winchester: Included the Midwest from the start. That first year in 2019, he had Little Switz, he had Crystal, he had Cabre Fay, he had a bunch of other ski areas. Really got big in 2020 when he added Lutzen and Granite Peak. Now, I always say his insight was…00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:45.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:02.000Stuart Winchester: that Doug's great insight with the IndyPass was realizing there was value in the mountains that are not.00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:08.000Stuart Winchester: super destinations when you put them all together for skiers across the country. He also…00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:23.000Stuart Winchester: the fact that he extended that to the Midwest is huge, because, yes, I… so, before Icon started adding in into the Midwest, which we'll talk about in a minute, I would always say, Indy Pass is the pass to go to in the Midwest, no one else has anything, and everyone would always say, oh, wait, Epic has 10 mountains. I was like.00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:16.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:18.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:34.000Stuart Winchester: But the Midwest is gigantic. Unless you live in Ohio, they're very spread out, and they're near cities, and there are actually mountains in the Midwest that are more…00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:44.000Stuart Winchester: of, of what you would consider, like, regional destinations. And that, that's your Boyne, Nubs, Lutsen, uh, even, even Spira with the bigger, uh, all the stuff over in the UP.00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:38.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:57.000Stuart Winchester: So Indy really collected them all together, and it was almost too good to be true, because they had over 40 ski areas in the Midwest. Talk about Indy at its peak.00:26:57.000 --> 00:27:02.000Stuart Winchester: And how great of a pass that was for the Midwest here.00:26:58.000 --> 00:26:59.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:17.000Matthew Zabransky: It was too great. We're going to get into this, I'm sure, but I think that's part of the reason for the course correction. There was a moment two or three years ago when I literally turned to Nick, my associate who edits for me and stuff, and I said, with some of the additions they announced at that time, I said.00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:33.000Matthew Zabransky: this is too saturated like it's got to fix itself at some point like it's just. It's too good of a value, and like for skiers, we like anybody that was buying the passes like this is amazing. It makes it like again. It's an auto buy like, why wouldn't you do this? But I knew that this time was going to come at some point. But I'm you know, at least we got to.00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:50.000Matthew Zabransky: to see what it like. The peak of that was for a little while. We got a couple of years. We've got to be happy for that, to be honest. We're starting to see some of those what I'll call course corrections now and and we're going to continue to see this. I mean, you know that every every year it's going to be something new. Someone's changing. It's just kind of the nature of the business. But.00:27:50.000 --> 00:28:02.000Matthew Zabransky: it was not a shock to me when, um, when these changes were announced, uh, both in the spring and then more recently in the last few weeks and stuff, so it wasn't… I kind of saw it coming, it was just a matter of, like, when was it gonna happen.00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:14.000Stuart Winchester: So everyone left… they seemed as though… Epic and Icon seemed like they were just leaving the Midwest to Indy, to take. And I've always thought that Icon's original sin was when they killed the Max Pass.00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:15.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:30.000Stuart Winchester: And launched the Icon Pass. They brought all the Powder Mountains, all the Boyne Mountains, uh, all the Intra West Mountains, but they didn't bring Granite Peak and Lutzen, which are the biggest ski areas or most modern, however, whatever metric you want to use in Minnesota and, and Wisconsin.00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:27.000Matthew Zabransky: Yep.00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:31.000Stuart Winchester: So…00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:46.000Stuart Winchester: for a long time, Indy just built up this huge coalition. Started to see some cracks last year. Icon had just two mountains, Boyne Mountain and Boyne Highlands, and honestly, and Boyne has never affirmed this to me, but my hunch is, Boyne said, include our mountains or you don't get Big Sky.00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:40.000Matthew Zabransky: Yep.00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:48.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, yeah.00:28:46.000 --> 00:29:01.000Stuart Winchester: So, so, Icon was like, okay, I guess we'll add these stupid little things. Uh, which is not my opinion of them, but I think that's probably what they thought from Colorado, which is why they dropped Lutzen and Granite Peak. So, last year, we started to see the first crack in Indy's armor.00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:55.000Matthew Zabransky: I was like, don't do that.00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:02.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm.00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:12.000Stuart Winchester: when the Icon Pass… they call them bonus mountains, I call them two-day mountains, because that's what they are. If you have an Icon Pass, you get two days of these mountains. Uh, Buck Hill, Minnesota.00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:27.000Stuart Winchester: Uh joined the icon pass as a two day mountain, which for the listeners, that's no, you get no base pass access, you only get full icon access and there are holiday blackouts. So that's what the two day tier is. They added Buck Hill. Uh Indy said, no, you're not allowed to do that. Remove Buck Hill.00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:30.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, which is a great little, uh, you know.00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:34.000Stuart Winchester: kind of trainer hill outside of the Twin Cities.00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:40.000Stuart Winchester: And every square inch is used with very maximum effect. So Indy removed them.00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:53.000Stuart Winchester: Buck Hill has been on Icon, and that was sort of the first… when you first saw that, did you think, okay, here we go, Icon is finally starting to realize the value of the Midwest, and if not, what was the moment that you did think that they got it?00:29:53.000 --> 00:30:09.000Matthew Zabransky: I would, you know, the whole time I've been shaking my head a little bit because it's just ironic to me that Boeing, Boeing, one of the biggest companies in, you know, that started in the Midwest, that literally has its roots here. And I'm just shocked that Icon hasn't.00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:26.000Matthew Zabransky: made this push earlier, and it took this long. But that was like the 1st that was the 1st like mention of that. And the other connection that was really kind of just crazy to me is, there's so many people from the twin cities that go to Big Sky like a lot like you talk to people all over the place. They have cabins up there. They.00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:24.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so. Yeah.00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:27.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:42.000Matthew Zabransky: They're traveling there all the time. It's a huge destination for specifically for Minnesota, it seems. So I was always thinking, man, like if they were just to strengthen this pass a little bit in the Midwest, give somebody a reason to, to jump on to the icon pass. They're probably going out to Big Sky anyway.00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:57.000Matthew Zabransky: now all of a sudden, you give them another reason to buy the full pass, you got some… some more local hills, some day… like, weekend trips, you can go up to Lutzen, things like that, and I think that's when… when Lutzen and those guys came on, that was, like, full-blown, that's gonna… that changes everything. Like, everything.00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:14.000Matthew Zabransky: As you know, the lake, Lake Michigan, is a huge divider for the eastern and the western side of what I'll call the Midwest. Basically, if you're on the eastern side of the lake, you're kind of going to stick to mostly your lower peninsula, maybe go up to the UP occasionally. But if you're on the western side over here, in the Minneapolis.00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:31.000Matthew Zabransky: Um, there was really no offerings for Icon, so it really made no sense at that point to buy an Icon Pass. You know, maybe Chicago, you drive up to Boeing, but you're kind of on that cusp there, where it's like, mmm… but I think once they strengthened it this past year, now it's like… it's a fair fight, in my opinion. Now we're.00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:46.000Matthew Zabransky: You know, which one is gonna make more sense for you, or your situation, which it was not, it didn't used to be that way, it just, there was never an opportunity for most people that were on this side of the lake, or in Minneapolis. Sometimes it didn't make sense, unless you're going out to, you know, Big Sky for a week and a half, it, you know.00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:50.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so just a little background for the listeners.00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm.00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:52.000Stuart Winchester: Boyne Mountain and and.00:31:52.000 --> 00:32:08.000Stuart Winchester: what they call the Highlands at Harbor Springs. I'll call it Boyne Highlands because no one knows what I'm talking about when I say the Highlands. So Boyne and Boyne Highlands are two of the nicer ski areas, more built up ski areas in Michigan, and they were long on Icon. Uh, Lutzen and Granite Peak.00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:58.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, this…00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:14.000Stuart Winchester: that, uh, Midwest Family Ski Resorts, which owns Lutzen and Granite Peak, bought, immediately took.00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:25.000Stuart Winchester: four old riblet lifts, put in a high-speed six-pack, the first one in the UP. So, those three ski areas had been indie anchors in the Midwest for years.00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:24.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:30.000Stuart Winchester: This year, for 2026-27 winter, they're going as 5-7 day…00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:42.000Stuart Winchester: mountains each on Icon and Icon Base, and so they are leaving the Indy Pass as a result of that. Now, Icon has also added some more two-day mountains. I'm gonna put those to the side for a second.00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:42.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:50.000Stuart Winchester: How big of a loss was Lutsen and Granite Peak and Snow River for Indy Pass in the Midwest?00:32:51.000 --> 00:33:06.000Matthew Zabransky: It's it's an easy question. I mean the answer just like, go look at the comments on the thread when it was announced, and you could just read how an impactful it was. And I think that was my argument when people started talking about like, Oh, they're you know, hey? Like they're leaving. They're leaving us in the dust, and we we don't like them anymore.00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:29.000Matthew Zabransky: It's probably justified. If you guys are this upset about them leaving, it means they probably had a little more leverage than they should have in that past portfolio. And I think it to that. And again, I don't know that it needs, like, a passion never be so strong, in my opinion. And I'm talking about the business side of things. You're not talking about the skier. Trust me, if I was, like, just skiing Matthew, put my skiing thing on, I'd be like, yeah, absolutely.00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:49.000Matthew Zabransky: Uh, but from the business side, as an area owner, operator, you gotta look at it, like, what kind of value are we getting back out of this pass? Are we the ones carrying your product? Like, that's the other thing to think about, too, right? We don't… you don't always necessarily want to be the top dog in the pass lineup. Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't. Uh, and in this case, I think that they…00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:56.000Matthew Zabransky: they were carrying that pass line up, and I think nothing speaks more to the volumes of how upset people were when they came off of the pass.00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:00.000Stuart Winchester: So we're… I've kind of looked at this as it's…00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:12.000Stuart Winchester: sucks for Indy, it's probably good for the consumer in the long run, because, like you said, you never want too much market concentration, so now you have… you have the Snow Pass coming up, which is… which is Snow Partners in two days…00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:05.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:28.000Stuart Winchester: at each mountain. There's none in the Midwest yet, but I suspect there may be at some point. Right now, they're mostly in the Northeast. And then you have Icon. So, before, I think a lot of people in Michigan probably had Icon, because you could use it for the Boynes, but like you said.00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:44.000Stuart Winchester: if you're not from the Midwest, you're probably just thinking it's like a big square, but there's a lake there, and you can't… I mean, you can take a ferry over it, but it takes all day, right? You have to go to Ludington, and it's like a whole thing, right? So really, you have Michigan, the Lower Peninsula, and then you kind.00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:33.000Matthew Zabransky: Yep.00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:58.000Stuart Winchester: Wisconsin. So, you live on the west side of that, I believe, like, around the Minnesota-Wisconsin line. How immediately did you see people say, okay, well, now, yeah, let's consider Icon that maybe never would have before?00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:49.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:04.000Matthew Zabransky: I think the original, like, when it first was announced, there was just a lot of, like.00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:17.000Matthew Zabransky: oh man, this sucks. Like, now what? You know, what do we do? Because the initial reaction was like, well, I'm not gonna auto-buy this now, I gotta think about it a little bit more. I'm curious because I haven't… it's still so fresh, to be honest, and I haven't, like.00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:07.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:32.000Matthew Zabransky: but to, like, really figure that question, like, the answer to that question out, but I have… the one thing I have been seeing is a lot more people starting to weigh those options, right? They're starting to look at the passes differently now. Now it's, like, not just, like, we're gonna pick up Indy automatically and, you know, whatever might throw a different pass on there. Now they.00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:49.000Matthew Zabransky: think about, how am I using my pass? Am I going up to Lutzen for a weekend or 2? Does it make sense for me to just get an icon pass? Am I a pass holder at Lutzen, and want to add it on now that that's an option, and maybe do an out west trip, or if you're granted peak. So I'm starting to see more people analyzing.00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:35:49.000 --> 00:36:03.000Matthew Zabransky: in an area where they haven't before. So I'll be curious to see this upcoming season will be a really good test to kind of figure out, like, where are those numbers starting to shift a little bit. But, um, from my first reaction is I have a feeling that there's gonna be a pretty big drop in IndyPass sales in the Midwest.00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:20.000Matthew Zabransky: For that reasoning. Um, and then I do think there's gonna be a bit of a spike, um, in, in IconPass sales. I don't think it's gonna obviously affect much on the Michigan side, Lower Peninsula side of things. I think that'll stay pretty stable. But I think this side, for sure, this market, Minneapolis specifically, a little bit of Chicago.00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:25.000Matthew Zabransky: Um, but I would expect to see a pretty good little spike in sales on the IconPass side.00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:35.000Stuart Winchester: So, Lutzen and Granite Peak, I think, huge losses for India. Snow River, less so, just because Powderhorn is right next door, and it's kind of the same size, and it's, you know, gets the same s.00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:30.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm.00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:32.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:53.000Stuart Winchester: Continued building by Icon after that announcement, and, and some, and some continued bleeding by Indy. So, so Icon had a Giants Ridge, which is an excellent ski area up in Minnesota. It's, it's kind of in the middle of nowhere, but it's worth it. Uh, Devil's Head, which is a nice, uh, Madison ski area, and then.00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:45.000Matthew Zabransky: Yep.00:36:53.000 --> 00:37:10.000Stuart Winchester: in Michigan left Indy to join the Icon today, so those all joined Icon today. And then Indy also lost Little Switzerland, Nordic Mountain, and Crystal Ridge in Wisconsin. As of now, they are passless. So, you know, those are small ski areas, but they're really important sort of urban.00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:21.000Stuart Winchester: collectors, but do you worry, Matthew, and I'll say, Indy still has 37 ski areas in the Midwest, but do you worry that their coalition is splintering a little bit, starting to fall apart?00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:17.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:40.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, a little bit. So I'm going to dance around this as carefully as I can because I have connections with all these owners, operators, and I talk to them on a regular basis, so I kind of know more than I probably should. But I'll try to navigate this the best that I can.00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:56.000Matthew Zabransky: with… when IndyPass started, Doug Fish and the team did a really nice job of making sure that when they signed a ski area on, that they were being very, very intentional about its location, what… who was serving, and then when they would add another person on, a lot of times they would even approach.00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:04.000Matthew Zabransky: some of the nearby ski areas, and be like, hey, we're adding so-and-so, or making sure that those partnerships were all, you know.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:22.000Matthew Zabransky: You're not too close where you're starting to monopolize business in different ways. I'll talk a little bit more about this in a second. So that was the approach for many, many years. However, I noticed a pretty big change a handful of years ago when it became more about a statistical difference than building those partnerships and.00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:41.000Matthew Zabransky: making those owners feel valued, if that makes sense. So it was like, okay, how can we just continue to pump numbers, get more? And in that process, what happened was a lot of ski areas in a small geographical area. And why has that caused a lot of issues for owners and operators? Is the idea of the IndyPass was, yeah.00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:50.000Matthew Zabransky: to create value with a portfolio of ski areas across the Midwest to rival that of, like, you know, other multi-mountain passes.00:38:50.000 --> 00:39:06.000Matthew Zabransky: Um, but what some of the owners and operators were starting to see was that instead of skiers buying a season pass at their local ski area, what they would do is buy the Indy Pass, ski two days at the ski area that would have been their local ski area, and then.00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:22.000Matthew Zabransky: You know, in some cases, like in the Twin Cities, you have a handful that are within a two hour drive. So then it became this thing of like, oh, we're starting to see RR like personal season passes drop for then people that are using IndiePass redemptions to treat it as if it were basically a season pass.00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:40.000Matthew Zabransky: I'm summarizing a lot there. There's a lot, like, to dive into, like, the details, but I can't, unfortunately, go into too much of that. But I think you can probably get the idea of why that was a little bit frustrating for some, um, owners and operators. So they really had to take a deep dive into some of those numbers and start to look at, like.00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:26.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:50.000Matthew Zabransky: Where are these people coming from? How are the redemptions being used? And then, you know, how is this pass either, you know, net positive or net negative for us? And, you know, I always tell everybody, it's…00:39:50.000 --> 00:40:00.000Matthew Zabransky: the ski business is, you know, Stuart, is just a very, very low margin business, and it is a business. Like, at the end of the day, like, they have to treat it like…00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:22.000Matthew Zabransky: you know, like you gotta find out where you're losing money, or is there opportunity? And that assessment has to happen on a yearly basis. And sometimes when they run it for their business, they might be finding out that this might not be a great option for them. Or maybe it was, and things have changed. And now it's not so. It's an ongoing assessment. And like I was mentioning earlier, this is going to be a game that is going to play out over the next 10 years, probably where people are going to be switching teams all the time. And.00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:28.000Matthew Zabransky: and just get used to it. I mean, this is gonna be the way it is, unfortunately or fortunately, you know.00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:31.000Stuart Winchester: If you're Indy, what's your next move to try to build your coalition back up?00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:49.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, I think the biggest thing they need to do is get some sort of anchor on this side of the lake. I mean, you've got Nub's Knob on Lower Peninsula, which is a great offering. I think that that really does anchor that side for sure. Over here, you gotta start eyeing up some areas that would serve as that anchor ski area. I know Whitecap was added.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:49.000 --> 00:41:04.000Matthew Zabransky: Um, which is good, but I think, like, you gotta think about, you know, what is that replacement for? You know, what is that replacement for Granite Peak? And it immediately comes to mind, like, a Cascade, right? Or one of those. And we all know, like, it's just gonna be a tough sale for some of these operations, because it's always that, like.00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:09.000Matthew Zabransky: If you're an anchor skier, you've probably got a good operation and a good thing going already, so…00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:29.000Matthew Zabransky: you know, what is the pitch? Why should I join your indie pass? So it's always this give and take a little bit, but, you know, given that we've had a bunch of ski areas now come off of indie, there might be an opportunity to fill that little bit of a void and be kind of that new anchor spot that would then highlight that side of the lake. I don't know. It'll be curious to see kind of how things play out, but.00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:37.000Matthew Zabransky: Um, I think we'll see a little bit of this course correction go on for the next year or two, and then I think maybe we'll see some moves in the future. It's hard to say.00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:43.000Stuart Winchester: That was really good, so I'm gonna extend that question. If you're Icon, what's your next move in the Midwest, and if you're Epic?00:41:45.000 --> 00:42:02.000Matthew Zabransky: If if I'm icon, what I'm circling right now to be quite frank is somewhere in the Chicagoland area. There's an opportunity there, and I don't, you know, of course. What is it? We don't know, but I think if you could add an offering like a full offering to which is a little bit tricky to do. But yeah, like you think of something like.00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:24.000Matthew Zabransky: Cascade, Devil's Head, one of those areas, if you can get it into, like, a full area where you can now grab that Chicago market and have it really well solidified, because right now you're kind of in a, you know, it's about four hours from up to Granite Peak, and then Boeing the other way is something like that, five or something. So you're kind of in that weird dead zone there, so I think there's still a huge opportunity to grab that market, which obviously is a huge market of skiers and s.00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. And if you're Epic, I mean, they have all city stuff, so what do you do if you're Epic?00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:29.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:49.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, I mean, I think Epic's playing the card that they want. The one thing that I am curious to see with Epic is not necessarily that, it's what's gonna happen with some of these smaller regional ski areas that have kind of been left in the dust a little bit. Paley Peaks is the first one that comes to mind when you start to think about this Snow Creek.00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:49.000 --> 00:43:06.000Matthew Zabransky: These ones that are just kind of in no man's land a little bit. They kind of got brought in with the Peak Resorts acquisition. I'm not sure that they necessarily wanted some of these ski areas, but they came in as a package deal as part of that. So it's just gonna be kind of interesting to see. They need a lot of reinvestment over the next, you know.00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:23.000Matthew Zabransky: 10 to 15 years, for sure, if not even sooner than that. So it'll be curious to see kind of how they approach those sort of areas in those regions, because some of those are in their own land like there is no ski area relatively close to some of them, or a couple of hours to the nearest ski area. So it'll be curious to see how they leverage that going forward.00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Matthew, I could sink into that one for about two hours and we could have a talk. I'm going to have to bring you back for that one. But for now, let's move on. And some of the folks who may not be familiar with the Midwest, we're going to talk about some of our favorite Midwest ski areas in just a moment. First, I want to tell you that this podcast is brought to you today by Profile Search International.00:43:44.000 --> 00:44:03.000Stuart Winchester: Profile Search is the only talent acquisition firm in the entire world that is 100% focused on the ski industry. They have used their intimate understanding of skiing and related industries, and of available candidates worldwide, to place hundreds of transformational leaders at the best and most progressive ski areas over the past.00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:19.000Stuart Winchester: 30 years. Profile Search has offices in the US and Canada, and they find and negotiate with the right leaders for their team. If you want to reach out to Profile Search, you can find them at profilesearch.com, and you can get their email or phone number there, or send me a note and I will.00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:26.000Stuart Winchester: make that connection for you. That is profilesearch.com. All right, Matthew, I gave you a challenge.00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:43.000Stuart Winchester: Or, or homework or something. I don't know. I'm sure you didn't have to think too hard about this, but we are going to break down our five favorite Midwest ski areas. We each have five. We'll, we'll start with five and, and, uh, and we'll take turns. Now, these are not what we think are the best necessarily because that's a whole different.00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:47.000Stuart Winchester: Conversation and I tried to think about.00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:59.000Stuart Winchester: If you've never skied the Midwest and are only going to ski here once in your life, where would I tell people to go? So, Matthew, I'll start with you. What is your number five favorite Midwest ski area and why?00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:14.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah. So I'll just just key this up with like, yeah, I agree with you. I went with kind of like I took an approach of uniqueness. There's different things that I enjoy about this years for different reasons, and I'll obviously unpack them as we kind of go through number 5 for me was perfect north slopes.00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:32.000Matthew Zabransky: And at its face, you might not think that that's… it's, you know, it's a ski area right outside of, uh, Cincinnati, um, and the southern tip of Indiana down there. And for, you know, for people that have never heard of it, they'd be like, why does this… why is this even on here? Uh, but the moment that you visit there, I think it all becomes very clear. Their throughput.00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:51.000Matthew Zabransky: their snowmaking capacity, their operations. It is a gold standard when we think of how to run a ski area in extremely challenging conditions and environments. Perfect North is the one that comes to mind. The way that they can move people through their rental department is phenomenal. The way that they can have a stable season based off of where they are.00:45:51.000 --> 00:46:08.000Matthew Zabransky: is just absolutely mind blowing. And they've been doing this since day one. So this isn't something that they have. You know they're new to. They've been doing this for many, many, many decades now at this point. So it's it's definitely worth a visit. Their train's really good as well. They have some Olympians that have come out of there just some some good stuff going down at at perfect north slopes.00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:23.000Stuart Winchester: I'm so glad you said Perfect North, because I did not include it on my list, but I think they are one of the best operators in the country. My number 5 is Chestnut, Illinois, and everyone's… you know why, but everyone's gonna say, Illinois? Like, what does it matter with you?00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:23.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:29.000Stuart Winchester: It is so unique, because you get up there, and it's about 500 vertical feet.00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:45.000Stuart Winchester: and you ski down to the freaking Mississippi River. It is… there is nothing else like that in American skiing. It is such a gorgeous view, and there's a train that goes by, and, and, and… the lift system is fantastic. Bunch of, you know, really maintained quads.00:46:45.000 --> 00:47:00.000Stuart Winchester: They have bars, which I like, which most Midwest ski areas don't, but they've retrofit them. Their grooming is phenomenal. Terrain's really good, steep and varied, and then one of the best things is on the backside, and the name of this probably is escaping me, it's like the backyard or something.00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:48.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah. Okay.00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:00.000Matthew Zabransky: Uh, far side.00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:15.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah, so they have a terrain park that could be its own ski area, and it has a lift by itself, and so all the badly behaved teenagers go over there and throw cans around and smoke. Maybe it was just the day I was there.00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:20.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but, but my number five is Chestnut, Illinois. Uh, number four, Matthew.00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:37.000Matthew Zabransky: This is gonna be. This is gonna be a deep cut here, and I'll give you my reasoning. So I'm a sucker for community rope toe ski places like it. It warms my heart every time every year there's at least one or 2 that I go to every time I show up. It's just the kids are so excited to show me around.00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:25.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Oh, love it.00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:47:37.000 --> 00:48:00.000Matthew Zabransky: They're so passionate and it really brings me back to why skiing is important and what it really is about, right? We talk about the steeps and all this fun stuff all the time, but like when you go to these places, there's just to see a kid just in jeans or whatever it may be after school ripping down. It's so fun. So one of my favorite, if not my favorite rope to ski area in the entire Midwest is a place called Hickory Hills. It's in Traverse City.00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:18.000Matthew Zabransky: It's a beautiful setting overlooking the bay, and they have just all ropes and one conveyor, and it's stacked. And it was one of the first ski areas in the Midwest to offer night skiing, which I thought was really, really cool as well. Obviously, not a lot of vertical, maybe 200 feet of vertical, depending on which rope you're going on, but it's one of those places you just show up.00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:30.000Matthew Zabransky: And they've reinvested, as recently as 2018, they built a new lodge, new snowmaking, and you just show up there, and you're just like, it brings you back to that, like, oh yeah, this is some good skiing, like, just…00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:37.000Matthew Zabransky: fundamental, good stuff, you see kids ripping around after school, it's like, it's what I think of when I think of, uh, rope tow places.00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:42.000Stuart Winchester: And long live the rope tow. I mean, it is amazing that I think they run five or six there, right?00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:46.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, I think they have six total, I believe, yeah.00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I've been there in the summer. I've never skied there. I used to ski at Sugarloaf down the… down the road till that went out of business. My number 4 is one you already mentioned, Matthew. Whitecap, Wisconsin. I just love this crazy ski area. It is…00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:51.000Matthew Zabransky: Yo.00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:04.000Stuart Winchester: I like to be confused when I'm skiing. I like it when a ski area…00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:05.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:22.000Stuart Winchester: Kind of hides its secrets and has lots of little trails and the trail map doesn't quite match up with the, with what you actually see. And, and there's lifts all over the place and there's little pockets and there's, you can tell that they don't care if you ski in the trees. And, and, and Whitecap is, is one of the most confusing ski areas I've, I've ever been to and I love.00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:23.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:40.000Stuart Winchester: it's in the great snow pocket off of Lake Superior, gets 200 or more inches of snow average per year, which is a good thing, because they don't have a lot of snowmaking, uh, there. But I really, really love Whitecap, and by the way, we did not share ours before, so we may have some crossover here. So, uh, what's your number 3, Matthew?00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:39.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:55.000Matthew Zabransky: Number three, I am going with a ski area that I think people around here would know, but I think people on the other side of the lake would not. And it is going to be Welch Village. Welch Village is an area that just, you look at the numbers, you read the stats, and you're like, this place…00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:49:55.000 --> 00:50:15.000Matthew Zabransky: cannot be that good. But it really is. It skis so much bigger than the stats suggest. I think it's about 300 feet of vertical. They have like 50 something runs. But I think what Welch Village has that a lot of skiers don't is the amount of terrain variation and stepping that they have is just phenomenal for beginners, and the fact that it's only about 40 minutes from the Twin Cities.00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:31.000Matthew Zabransky: is amazing. So they have basically a run for every progression. If you want super steep, now obviously it's only 300 feet of vertical, so it's gonna be a handful of turns, but they have that. If you want something very, very gently sloped, they got that, and basically everything in between. And it's just one of those areas that is a perfect.00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:41.000Matthew Zabransky: Kind of like just outside the urban reach, right? It's not like in your backyard, but it's close enough where you can easily go for a few hours and just a perfect place to learn how to ski and snowboard.00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:57.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I love Welch Village. I was super impressed when I went there a few years ago, and it's not too far from Vail's Afton Alps, so you can do both in a day easily if you want to, but Welch Village, first-rate operation, absolutely one of the best in the Midwest. My number three is a nostalgia play, and I'm gonna say Boyne Mount.00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:44.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:50:57.000 --> 00:51:13.000Stuart Winchester: The reason I love Boyne Mountain is not because of the fast lift, so they were the first six-pack in North America, and, you know, they put in the first eight-pack in the Midwest, and there's a lot of history there. The first chairlift in the world is there. They moved it from Sun Valley.00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:23.000Stuart Winchester: the single chair from Sun Valley back in the… in the 40s, and it's now the Hemlock double chair. But what I love Boyne Mountain is because when I… back in the 90s, when I lived in Michigan.00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:30.000Stuart Winchester: they would stay open into May. And back then, there was no social media, so no one knew about it, so I'd show up, and there would be…00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:26.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:47.000Stuart Winchester: not kidding, 10 people skiing, and they would be running that six-pack all day, and they would let it bump up, and just run idiots to light, and it's where I learned how to ski moguls, and I've always just been tremendously fond of Boyne for that reason. So while it is one of the nicest ski areas in the Midwest, just on its own terms.00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:34.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:51:47.000 --> 00:52:02.000Stuart Winchester: It's also very steep. It's just, I have that feeling of, you know, that memory of skiing in my t-shirt in May in 1996, you know, down the moguls at Boyne Mountain with five other people, and it was just, it's one of my favorite ski memories ever, and the fact that they.00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:13.000Stuart Winchester: empowered that and did that. When they lost money, there's no way they didn't lose money doing that. It just speaks a lot to the spirit that still animates that company, even though it's a bigger company now.00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:16.000Stuart Winchester: Number two for you, Matthew.00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:31.000Matthew Zabransky: We'll get to this, I'm sure, at the end, but it's cool to see some of that going full circle. I don't want to give too much away. We'll get into that in a second. Number two for me is a pick that I think is going to change a lot this year, specifically because of the new lift alignment, and that's Marquette Mountain.00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:19.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:50.000Matthew Zabransky: They have phenomenal terrain up there, they get great snow, and the thing that was always just missing was a little bit of polishing around the edges, and I think they're finally getting to that point now with, uh, you know, a lot of snowmaking investments over the last handful of years. This new chair from Dolphin Meyer, uh, triple gonna run up basically the center of the ski area, and I think it's really gonna change the way that this.00:52:50.000 --> 00:53:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Uh, previously, it was divided into kind of two almost separate pods. It kind of had this weird split down the middle. It was kind of hard to navigate. But given that this one's gonna go right up to the center there, you're gonna be able to get full top-to-bottom access a lot more easily, be able to access a lot more of the terrain across the port, the entire, you know, trail map off the front side there.00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:23.000Matthew Zabransky: and I think it's 1 of those that like it. This they have the terrain, and there's not many areas in the Midwest that have the terrain. It's usually the other way where it's like, Yeah, okay, we have. You know the infrastructure. We have the location, but we don't have the steeps, or we don't have the trees, or whatever it may be.00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:16.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:34.000Matthew Zabransky: It's a Marquette, good city up there in the UP, really the only major city in the UP, but they have a good demographic up there. And I think with the changes that they're gonna see this year with the new lift, it's gonna be really fun to watch.00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:44.000Stuart Winchester: Not only do they have the terrain, they have the snow. I mean, they're another one of those Lake Superior. They don't get quite as much as up in the Keweenaw or Snow River, but they do get a fair amount.00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:38.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, yeah.00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:45.000Matthew Zabransky: They do.00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:54.000Stuart Winchester: So my number two, I'm kind of going chalk on these last two, so you can probably guess what my number one is. My number two is a very obvious one, and that's Lutzen.00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:56.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:53:54.000 --> 00:54:10.000Stuart Winchester: You know, for, for folks who have never been to Lutzen, it, first of all, it has a gondola. Now, now it's more of a transit lift. It goes more sideways than up and down, but it does have, is it eight or 900 feet of vertical? I think 800 and, or you could ski down to, yeah, of lift served vertical. And the.00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:01.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:07.000Matthew Zabransky: It's… yeah.00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:26.000Stuart Winchester: enormous. It's really four separate mountains and it goes in all different directions and they have two six packs and they have that Gandhi, which is fairly new. I think within the last 10 years, they built that to replace their older one. Uh That is one of the best run ski areas in the Midwest. Another one that will stay open into May.00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:42.000Stuart Winchester: when they can. Oh, and speaking of views, I mean, the view off of Moose Mountain of Lake Superior just knock you on your ass. It is so good. I really love Lutzen Mountain, which takes us, Matthew, to your number one ski area in the Midwest.00:54:42.000 --> 00:55:01.000Matthew Zabransky: Man, man, this is one, and it's funny ‘cause I'm working on this video right now, and it's a place that every time I leave this ski area or while I'm at this gear, I just have a smile on my face the entire time. It has nothing flashy, but they do everything right, and that's nub knob. I mean, you go to this place and you just…00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:44.000Stuart Winchester: Favorite ski area.00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:17.000Matthew Zabransky: It's just crazy to me that we were working on this video and my editor, Nick, we got to the end of the video and I mentioned like, “Oh, it doesn't have any high-speed lifts, but it almost feels like it does just because of the way that they're aligned and the way the traffic flows and the way that the runs are cut and everything.00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:34.000Matthew Zabransky: It feels like another one that just, you read the stats and you're like, okay, that sounds decent. But then you get on site and you're just like, this is just a really well run ski area. Snowmaking is always top notch. Grooming is amazing. Lifts spin, they don't stop very often. I mean, everything is just really well polished.00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:33.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:45.000Matthew Zabransky: the core skiing experience, and they really nail it, and again, it's one of those, like, every time I come off the hill there, I'm just like, man, that was a great day of skiing, even if, you know, it's raining outside, I feel like.00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:45.000 --> 00:56:01.000Stuart Winchester: And as a… just to underscore how good of a scary it is, it's right across the street from Boyne Highlands, and it has been, you know, obviously its whole time, but for a scary to succeed, a lot of times, a smaller scary will fail next to a big corporate area, but Nubs has managed to flourish. Matthew, we actually had no crossover, because.00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:47.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:55:49.000 --> 00:55:51.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:16.000Stuart Winchester: as you can probably guess, is Mount Bohemia, and I'm sure that's probably why you left it off. Uh, Mount Bohemia, for the folks who are not familiar with it, I wrote an article last year, I called it, Mount Bohemia, the scarier the Midwest deserves, because when Mount Bohemia opened in 2000, it.00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:03.000Matthew Zabransky: Hey.00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Yep.00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:31.000Stuart Winchester: And it has 900 feet of vertical. They do not groom. They have no snowmaking. They get 300 inches annually. It's all, almost all, glades. Their glading is some of the best I've ever seen anywhere, because there's a lot of underbrush in Michigan.00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:22.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:48.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the place is an absolute riot. Talk about culture. You get on the ground and you're like, oh, what's here? They don't even have a proper base lodge. It's, it's all these yurts and then they have this giant complex of hot tubs for some reason that, that everyone's always in there drinking beer and.00:56:48.000 --> 00:56:55.000Stuart Winchester: And the skiing is just… it's great! It's… it's… there's nothing else like it anywhere in North America, where there's just…00:56:55.000 --> 00:57:12.000Stuart Winchester: that much just free skiing available off of a lift, and Lonnie, the owner, has been on a couple times, and I cannot say enough good things about Nubs Knob, including… and I'll let people do their own research on this, but their season pass is $117, or $99 for… you don't want Fridays and Saturdays, and you get all kinds of reciprocals with it, so…00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:16.000Stuart Winchester: It's not a bad multi-mountain pass on its own. So…00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:14.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:30.000Matthew Zabransky: I was so. I was so nervous the 1st so I went to Bohemia last year for the 1st time ever, and I it has been on my list forever, and I keep like I want to hit it right, because I don't want to like. Just go there and not be able to ski everything. And the entire time I've been super fortunate to see a lot of amazing places in in North.00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:49.000Matthew Zabransky: And I was super nervous it was not going to live up to the hype, because I was like, this place is hyped up so much, there is no way that it is going to live up to the hype, and it absolutely did. It's one of the most unique scary areas that you'll ever go to, the operations, the bus system, the hot tub. Nothing makes sense there, but it all does in a weird way. It's an absolute riot.00:57:49.000 --> 00:58:04.000Stuart Winchester: I couldn't have said any better. I always tell people, if you ski one place in the Midwest in your life, make it Mount Bohemia. All right, now, Matthew, what I want you to leave us with today is… I imagine, maybe deliberately, you didn't mention any of these ski areas, but one of the…00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:15.000Stuart Winchester: things that you do an awesome job with every year is covering the race to open in the Midwest. So, so tell us about the race to open. Who's involved?00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:19.000Stuart Winchester: When it generally takes place and how you cover it.00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:35.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, so the race to open is a pretty big deal across the Midwest. It was something that before I started this website and YouTube channel, I did not really realize a lot, but the Midwest is always usually fighting for one of the first areas to open in the entire country on occasion. It really just depends on the weather.00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:52.000Matthew Zabransky: But what

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast supports bears, quadrangles, and liberal interpretations of The Iliad. Sign up for the free or paid newsletter to get updates on none of these things. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.Welcome to the Storm's short-form, news-focused podcast. Don't worry, I will still write newsletters too. Paid subscribers can leave a comment in the article below, or by joining The Storm's chat (also below). I'll respond to some comments in the next episode, which is scheduled for Monday, Sept. 14.The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)Stuart Winchester: Welcome to The Storm! I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. It is September 10th, 2026, and we have some big, big news in Ski World today.00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:14.000Stuart Winchester: So one of the things that I focused on since launching the storm in 2019 is the rapid.00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:30.000Stuart Winchester: Exponential growth in US based multi mountain ski passes and one of the biggest icon pass today released five new partners for the 2026 to 27 season. So I'm gonna break those down for you.00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:46.000Stuart Winchester: I am going to talk a little bit more about IndyPass and some of their partner shuffles. Then we are going to be joined by IndyPass owner, Eric Mogenson, who will give us a breakdown on all things happening with Indy, Black Mountain, and Entebeni Systems.00:06:46.000 --> 00:07:01.000Stuart Winchester: reader reaction, but I want to jump right into Icon Pass. Icon hits us today with, as I said, 5 new ski areas, 3 are full partners, and those… which means 7 days on the Icon Pass.00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:06.000Stuart Winchester: 5 days on the Icon Base Pass. All 3 are in Asia.00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:13.000Stuart Winchester: The first is Matarau, Japan. That will be ICON's 10th ski resort in Japan.00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:28.000Stuart Winchester: And then, Icon, last year, was the first U.S.-based pass to add a ski area in China, and Icon adds two more today, though they're nowhere near the ski area that it added last year. They are sort of close.00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:47.000Stuart Winchester: to each other. So, we're gonna break those down first, and then ICON added two mountains to its two-day tier, uh, which it calls Bonus Mountains, which ICON insists are not ICON Pass members, uh, but I insist they are, because you can access them with your ICON Pass. Therefore, they are on.00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:53.000Stuart Winchester: the Icon Pass, no matter what Altera tells us. So, let's start with Montreal, Japan, and if you're on…00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:55.000Stuart Winchester: The…00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:04.000Stuart Winchester: If you're on the video, I'm going to share my screen here because we're going to do a little visual helping.00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:10.000Stuart Winchester: All right, so let's take this away. All right, so the first one I want to break down.00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:12.000Stuart Winchester: is…00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:26.000Stuart Winchester: Madarao, Japan, and I've actually written about this ski area before, because they were an IndiePass member, and this is the article that I wrote back in 2023, when Madarao joined IndiePass, and Indie's been a big leader in.00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:27.000Stuart Winchester: Bye.00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:40.000Stuart Winchester: building out a network in Japan. So, the ski resorts in Japan are interesting. I've not skied there, but I've been there in the summer and ridden the lifts around.00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:45.000Stuart Winchester: And the skiing is very much like a mix of…00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:58.000Stuart Winchester: The Cottonwoods and New England. And what I mean by that is, if you're looking at the screen here, you can see the stats on Mattarau. 512 inches of average annual snowfall.00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:12.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but not a lot of vert, 1,444 feet, and as you can see from the trail map, if you're looking here, it's not a big trail footprint. So, what I mean when I say Cottonwoods is the snowfall, and when I say…00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:29.000Stuart Winchester: New England, I mean the size. They tend to be not huge vert, sort of compact. If they do have a lot of vert, like the Jacuba Valley ski resorts that are on Vail, they tend to go, uh, kind of straight up and be side by side. You don't have a lot of the mega resorts as you would have.00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:40.000Stuart Winchester: in North America, or especially in Europe. So, it's good that the passes are all building density in Japan, because the ski areas are not…00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:43.000Stuart Winchester: This is not a place that you would go to necessarily.00:09:43.000 --> 00:10:02.000Stuart Winchester: like Vail Mountain and spend a week, or like Whistler. Another thing I want to note about Japan, you can see here that Matarau has some glade zones marked. In a lot of cases, skiing off-piste or in the trees, even though that's what Japan is known for, in a lot of cases, my understanding is that that's pretty heavily policed and forbidden.00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:17.000Stuart Winchester: So you really have to research your ski areas before you go over to figure out which ones will actually allow you to go off-piste, which is what most of us want to do, right? If we're coming from North America, we're going there for the big powder. Japan is a little more of an on-piste tradition.00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:21.000Stuart Winchester: a little bit more like Europe. So, I…00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:33.000Stuart Winchester: there's… to underscore the scope of what we have now available to us in Japan as U.S.-based pass holders. So, with the addition of Madarao today.00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:49.000Stuart Winchester: Now, 53 ski areas in Japan have joined the Epic, Icon, Indy, or Mountain Collective Passes. And I actually, I want to show you something I have that's really cool. So, I have this gigantic chart, and it's kind of…00:10:49.000 --> 00:11:04.000Stuart Winchester: it's kind of hard to navigate, but I'm slowly making it a little bit better. And so this is a chart that's variously called a bunch of different things. Right now, I'm calling it the Encyclopedia Britannica. Sometimes it's been the Passmaster.00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:17.000Stuart Winchester: 5,000. And I just kind of change the name whenever I want, but the link is always the same. And what I've… it's a really slow Google Sheet, and I definitely need a better platform, but if you go, there's all these tabs.00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:33.000Stuart Winchester: Down at the bottom, and again, this is where it's nice to have the video, so you can see what I'm showing you here. So I have all these tabs. One of the tabs is all MegaPass ski areas. So I have this divided up, and these are just little tables that pivot off the main table, so all the stats are up to date.00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:35.000Stuart Winchester: So first, I have this…00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:42.000Stuart Winchester: chart here with all ski areas that are on any U.S.-based pass, and we'll talk about that a little bit more in a second.00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:43.000Stuart Winchester: Then I have…00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:59.000Stuart Winchester: all U.S. ski areas, then I have New England, I have Japan, so let's pause on Japan for a moment. 53 ski areas, 11 Epic, 10 Icon, 32 Indy, 1 Mountain Collective. You can see all the stats down here. Again, not big.00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:16.000Stuart Winchester: skiable acre footprints, and really, Japan measures things differently than North America. They tend to measure snowpack rather than inches of snowfall. I did find a good average annual snowfall chart on Powderhounds, which is a great site that I'll talk more about.00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:25.000Stuart Winchester: for international research of ski areas. But if you see these acreage totals, you know, there's really nothing much.00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:35.000Stuart Winchester: Here's Niseko United, it's 2,100 acres, that's 5 ski resorts combined, right next to each other. Rasutsu is, uh, is 2,000, but most of these are under…00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:51.000Stuart Winchester: 500, so you really prepare yourself for that. It's one place, I think, Japan, where it would help to get a guide. Everything tends to be pretty cheap once you get on the ground. In Japan, the lift tickets are nothing, so having someone to show you around and show you where you can go under the ropes.00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:57.000Stuart Winchester: is a good idea. And, you know, I want to jump ahead to reader feedback for a moment. So I had…00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:14.000Stuart Winchester: this comment from Allison Wood. She said, I look forward to seeing your future efforts. I know there's enough in American skiing to discuss, but I'd be curious if you would further discuss European Alps destinations. It seems to be growing in popularity due to competitive pricing versus U.S.00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:28.000Stuart Winchester: Western resorts. A week at Big Sky appears to be the same price as a week in Switzerland for those in the Eastern USA. The answer is absolutely yes. I do want to cover the Alps and Japan and all of these international destinations more.00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:43.000Stuart Winchester: I don't have the personal on-the-ground knowledge base with those ski areas that I do with the U.S. ski areas, so I'm reaching out to my contacts in Europe, in Japan, who know these resorts intimately, and I'm gonna bring them on the show to try to help us make sense, because if you go back.00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:47.000Stuart Winchester: We go back to the Encyclopedia Britannica for a second.00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:49.000Stuart Winchester: You'll see that…00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:52.000Stuart Winchester: The, uh… if I can get to it…00:13:52.000 --> 00:14:05.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so Japan has 53 ski areas, Canada has another 55, and most of us can sort those out easily enough. The harder ones is Europe. I mean, Europe, there's 61 ski areas, and sometimes a ski area in Europe is, you know.00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:21.000Stuart Winchester: 10 ski areas that put together are as big as all the ski areas in Utah. So I really need some help to break those down. But that's the great thing about this new format is that it will allow me to bring in more voices more frequently since there's more frequent shows. All right.00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:38.000Stuart Winchester: Icon also today added two ski areas in China, and the best site to just get the basics of any ski area in the world is, I've found, skiresort.com. They have a profile of every ski area. They tend to keep it up to date. I don't know who runs the site.00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:54.000Stuart Winchester: I would like to connect with them at some point, but this is really my go-to for… so this is Betahu, I'm sure I'm pronouncing that wrong, one of the ski areas that ICON added in China, and they have all the basic information, the elevation, which is not high, it's all in meters, obviously, out of the U.S.00:14:54.000 --> 00:15:01.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, what I really like is the lift breakdown and the trail map. So, the… the thing about the ski areas in China.00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:07.000Stuart Winchester: is just like everything else in China, they're pretty much brand new. I read this really interesting.00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:13.000Stuart Winchester: quote in the New York Times several years ago, and the notion.00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.000Stuart Winchester: was basically China…00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:31.000Stuart Winchester: stayed pretty much in the 19th century for all of the 20th century, and then it got to the 21st century in about 10 years. So, you go there, there's high-speed rail, everything's new, there's new buildings. The ski resorts are new as well, and you can see this in their lift fleet. I mean, this…00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:34.000Stuart Winchester: You know, they have a…00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:49.000Stuart Winchester: six eight-person gondolas, one six-person gondola, two high-speed six-packs, three high-speed detached quads, no fixed grip lifts at all, and then you take a look at the trail map, and again, this is probably a little more like Japan, where these are.00:15:49.000 --> 00:16:03.000Stuart Winchester: a little bit smaller ski areas than what we're used to, uh, as far as the Mountain West. But, you know, it's all very well interconnected. I would expect a lot of on-piste skiing. You know, with a… with a immature ski culture, I wouldn't expect a lot of glade stuff.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:19.000Stuart Winchester: to be developed. Kind of talking on my rear end, to be honest, because I've not skied in China or even been to China, but these are my perceptions with the different ski cultures I know. I'll try to track down someone who knows better. Here's the other Icon Pass resort, Lake Songwa Resort, and I want to make…00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:30.000Stuart Winchester: that we kind of have an Aspen-Crested Butte situation going on here, so Sangua and, uh, this other one they added, uh…00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:49.000Stuart Winchester: Beidou, there, as you can see on this Google map, they're 24 miles apart in the mountains, but it looks like about a 4-hour drive, so there's not really a road through the city. It's the same kind of deal with Aspen and Crested Butte, where they're pretty close, but it's a long drive around. These are seasonal roads that Google doesn't know about, so it's about a 5-hour drive in the winter.00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:51.000Stuart Winchester: I believe. So…00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:03.000Stuart Winchester: We have these, and then, if you want to go to China to experience skiing, Icon gives you the means to do so. And then, Icon added…00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:16.000Stuart Winchester: to their 2-day tier, which again, they're saying is not IconPass. I want to talk about the 2-day tier a little bit in general. So, Icon started this 2-day tier.00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:23.000Stuart Winchester: last year, and I think what they were trying to do is mirror what Vail did.00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:37.000Stuart Winchester: with its feeder ski areas and all these little places that are bought all over the country, Mount Brighton in Michigan, and Afton Alps in Minnesota, and Wilmot in Wisconsin, and all the resorts around Cleveland.00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:49.000Stuart Winchester: and you know, Alpine Valley. And then there's the names escaping me. Boston Mills, Brandywine. I just skied there and did a write-up on it. So so yeah, they're.00:17:49.000 --> 00:18:04.000Stuart Winchester: Vail bought up all these ski areas. Well, Icon, instead of doing that and buying, has added two days only on the full Icon Pass, which is currently $1,449, uh, two days to 11 different ski areas around the country.00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:19.000Stuart Winchester: It's been growing that list. Silver Star was one last year, and it converted to full Icon, but right now, if you're on the screen share, you can see the 11 that are currently on the Icon Pass two-day roster. So we…00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:23.000Stuart Winchester: had today the additions of Cabarfay Peaks in Michigan.00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:25.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:37.000Stuart Winchester: In Wyoming, we had snowy range. So Caberfay Peaks is actually, it's an awesome ski area. It's one of my favorite ski areas. I grew up about an hour and 15 minutes from there.00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:40.000Stuart Winchester: And with Cabot Fay, it…00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:55.000Stuart Winchester: It's a really fun place. They're constantly building it up. And what the cabaret you see today is very different than the cabaret that existed a long time ago. It basically used to be a two mile sprawl of rope tows and starting in the 1980s.00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:59.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the families that owned it dug up from the bottom here.00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:07.000Stuart Winchester: and added to the top. So they went from a couple hundred vertical feet to 485 vertical feet, and it continued to…00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:18.000Stuart Winchester: expand, and they have another expansion in the works over here on Green Mountain. Should be coming 27-28, and I'm gonna have Tim and Pete Meyer from Calgary Fay Peaks on next week to talk about that a little more.00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:20.000Stuart Winchester: And then we have…00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:36.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it's Snowy Range, Wyoming, and Snowy Range might seem like a little bit of a weird one, but Snowy Range is actually very logical. They've had a long-standing relationship that's in southern Wyoming. It's not, it's only a couple hours from Steamboat. They have a long-standing relationship with Steamboat.00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:51.000Stuart Winchester: to a snowy range season pass for 300 and some dollars this year. They changed that to half off in a 3 day icon session pass, which is good at Steamboat and several other mountains. And now, if you have a full icon, you would also get 2 more days at Steamboat.00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:54.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, or you would actually get 2 days at Snowy Range.00:19:54.000 --> 00:20:00.000Stuart Winchester: if you were, you know, wanted to escape the crowds at Steamboat one day. So, we are gonna…00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.000Stuart Winchester: Come back to…00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:16.000Stuart Winchester: IndyPass in a moment. Actually, I have one more IndyPass update, then I'm gonna go to Eric. So, Mission Ridge and Blacktail in Washington have left IndyPass.00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:17.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:19.000Stuart Winchester: Hold on, let me just…00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.000Stuart Winchester: So Eric, I'll be right there.00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.000Stuart Winchester: We'll get to Mission to Blacktail in a minute. I'm gonna bring Eric in.00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:34.000Stuart Winchester: And I'm going to stop my screen share.00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Eric?00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.000Erik Mogensen: What's up, man?00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:57.000Stuart Winchester: How you doing? Joining us now is the director of IndyPass, the founder of Entebeni Systems, and the operator of Black Mountain, New Hampshire. Eric Mogenson is a good friend of the storm, and he joins us now from where? Where are you, Eric?00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:05.000Erik Mogensen: I am, uh, calling in from Black Mountain, New Hampshire, our new home, and I'm up at the Alpine Cabin.00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:18.000Stuart Winchester: I want to start on the Alpine Cabin. Tell us what the Alpine Cabin was when you arrived at Black Mountain and what it has turned into from what it is and from a revenue standpoint.00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:07.000Erik Mogensen: Yep.00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:34.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, so, um, I spend the first 8 to 10 hours of my day working with our engineering and product teams, and most of it is in front of a computer or on the phone, but by 5 PM I try to be up here on the mountain every.00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:52.000Erik Mogensen: night. Like, doing trail work, on the excavator, snowmaking, lift work. But I keep a desk up here in the summer. Couldn't keep a desk here in the winter. Um, but I do keep a desk up here so that when I have an idea, or I want to come write something down, or I want to watch a YouTube video, or do something, this place is super productive for me.00:21:53.000 --> 00:22:11.000Erik Mogensen: It's like my peaceful, happy place in the summer. In the winter, there is nothing peaceful about this place. This, this place rages, uh, European style. So, when we took over Black Mountain, the Alpine cabin, the credit card receipts from the Alpine cabin the year before.00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:22.000Erik Mogensen: were $38,000, uh, for the season in sales. Um, and the year after, our first year that we took it over, it was over $300,000.00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:29.000Erik Mogensen: Um, and then our second year, it was over $600,000, and most of that comes down to champagne.00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:38.000Erik Mogensen: But don't look at champagne as something you drink. Champagne is something that you use to celebrate. And so I think.00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:50.000Erik Mogensen: The long-winded answer to your question is, is the Alpine cabin is truly a place to celebrate the sport and culture of skiing, and people are definitely holding on to that.00:22:50.000 --> 00:23:03.000Stuart Winchester: It's an amazing space, and if folks aren't familiar with Black Mountain, that's the main double chair to the summit right behind you, and it goes right over the alpine cabin. It's a party scene, and it's a lot of fun.00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:00.000Erik Mogensen: Oh, yeah.00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:20.000Stuart Winchester: Going from $38,000 to $600,000, 20X in revenue, I mean, Eric, that's the kind of revenue stream that could change the path of a lot of small ski areas. Is that replicable, do you think, at some of these smaller family-owned ski areas around the country that.00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:25.000Stuart Winchester: are really tied to old revenue models and just need a little spark.00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:32.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I don't know if you can scale the champagne necessarily, but you can definitely scale.00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:51.000Erik Mogensen: the focus on the culture of skiing. And I think that's really what the independents do so well, is that, you know, the wood fireplaces smell authentic, the people are very authentic, the ski trails are authentic, they're weird, they're quirky, the lifts are slow, right?00:23:51.000 --> 00:24:06.000Erik Mogensen: Those a lot of people look at those things. We've been programed as skiers to see those things as liabilities. They're actually our biggest assets. And so, yeah, the Alpine, you know, the Alpine cabin was a little 200 square foot patrol shack.00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:11.000Erik Mogensen: that sold some, you know, beer and hot dogs.00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:21.000Erik Mogensen: But we never looked at that as a liability. We never looked at that as, hey, we need to go build a 20,000 square foot mid-mountain lodge, take on a ton of debt.00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:32.000Erik Mogensen: Um, we really looked at it as an opportunity, and I think every single small ski area has that exact same opportunity to focus on the authenticity of the product that they deliver.00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:48.000Stuart Winchester: There's been a ripple effect, too. I mean, what can you tell us about skier visits before and after you purchased it? Because Black, for background, for people who are not familiar with Black, the reason you own Black is because they announced they were closing on Facebook. They said, we're done. The skier has been open since 1930, whatever.00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:57.000Stuart Winchester: said, we're done, this was 3 years ago, and you said, no. And you tried to find a buyer, looked for a year, uh, and decided to buy it yourself. So, so…00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:03.000Stuart Winchester: You took a dying skier, what did the skier visits revenue look like when you got it, and what do they look like today?00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:15.000Erik Mogensen: It was about $700,000, $750,000 in top line revenue when we bought the whole ski area. Yeah, including the $32,000 in hot dogs and beer at this cabin.00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:11.000Stuart Winchester: That's the whole ski area.00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:12.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:27.000Erik Mogensen: Um, so it was the entire ski area. I don't quite know what the skier visits were. Um, we know what the ticketed visits were, but I would guesstimate that the skier visits were somewhere between, you know, 10 and 15,000.00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:43.000Erik Mogensen: Um, in our second year, we took it to $2.5 million in top line revenue. Um, we've surpassed $5 million, uh, here in our 25th or 26th month. And skier visits, you know, all in, including employees and the whole thing, right about 55,000.00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:48.000Erik Mogensen: So it's been a big turnaround. It's been interesting, learned a lot.00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:50.000Erik Mogensen: And.00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:56.000Erik Mogensen: I think this is 100% doable by most of the smallest areas on the planet.00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:02.000Erik Mogensen: You just have to realize that if you want a different and better result, you have to take different and better action.00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I mean, you proved me wrong, because I, you know…00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:16.000Stuart Winchester: I thought Black had maybe just had its time, because it's surrounded by two Vail Own Mountains and Cranmore, which is a high-speed lift. Sunday River is right down the road. Uh, you have intense competition from Epic.00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:26.000Stuart Winchester: and… and Black Mountain is not an especially snowy mountain, like, say, Smuggler's Notch, we'll talk about in a minute. I… I didn't know if… if it had enough aura.00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:38.000Stuart Winchester: But it seems like you've either tapped the aura or created it, and really turned it around, and really given me a lot of hope that a lot of the ski areas that we see around the country, that…00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:45.000Stuart Winchester: Seem to be up against this modernization curve, they can't quite get ahead, might be able to take other routes to get there.00:26:45.000 --> 00:27:00.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, and I think, too, Stu, it's worth noting, like, yeah, I'm proud of what we've done here, but there's a lot of really good operators out there that have done this, too. You know, having grown up in Buffalo, which I'll call, like, the Eastern Midwest of the Midwest.00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:10.000Erik Mogensen: Right? There's really well-managed ski areas that focus on the food and beverage, that focus on the authenticity, um, that drive a ton of other revenue.00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:23.000Erik Mogensen: Um, that are creative, uh, in that way, and I think we just have to be accepting of those things. We have to be accepting of them, we have to share what works, uh, share what doesn't work, and collaborate, um.00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:29.000Erik Mogensen: And and then we'll be fine. We'll be fine. These little skier is have a huge advantage.00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:39.000Erik Mogensen: in the fact that they are… they are run by authentic and passionate people. That… they… they are… they are run…00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:46.000Erik Mogensen: not as a profit center. Um, and yes, they need to be profitable to be sustainable and have reinvestment, right? But…00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:51.000Erik Mogensen: These little ski areas have such a remarkable advantage over some of the big areas.00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:57.000Erik Mogensen: and and how they're managed and what their direction looks like. We just have to take advantage of it and talk about it more.00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:06.000Stuart Winchester: this is just the beginning of the story, too. All right, let's switch over to Andy Pass, and, you know, my questions around Black, when you were initially taking it over, were…00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:24.000Stuart Winchester: how many retro ski areas does New England have room for in a market? Like, Mad River Glen has crafted its whole image around being this retro ski area. You know, they groom, they make snow up to 2,000 whatever feet, the single chair is a 1940 whatever, but they rebuilt it in 2007, so…00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:27.000Stuart Winchester: It is a well-maintained place.00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:42.000Stuart Winchester: as sort of like a museum. It's… it's… it's… the facade is old school, and it skis that way, but really, it's… it's been well tended to. Smuggler's Notch is another one of those that feels like 1960s, around 1960s haul lifts, including.00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:57.000Stuart Winchester: One of the longest in the country, the Madonna lift. Uh, and I saw black in that same mold and said, okay, how many of these do we have room for? But Smuggs is, at the end of the day, a awesome ski area, and you added it to IndyPass. I mean, how big of a victory is that for New England skiers?00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:03.000Stuart Winchester: to now have Smuggs, Jay, Waterville, all these ski areas on the one pass.00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:11.000Erik Mogensen: I mean, look, you've got… you've got Smogs, you've got Jay, you've got Bolton, you've got Cannon, you've got Waterville, um.00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:28.000Erik Mogensen: we've really leveled the playing field in the East, and it's exactly what we intend to do in other places of the country, and also around the world. Uh, and I think what we're proving here in New England, there's been a lot of focus with IndyPass in New England over the last two years, and a lot of that has to do.00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:44.000Erik Mogensen: With Black Mountain and our move and our things there. But what we're proving we can do here, we are going to replicate in other markets. There's no question in my mind. And I think what we're going to replicate is the fact that you don't have to be epic. You don't have to be iconic.00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:50.000Erik Mogensen: to be a really stable, well-earning business. You can be part of an independent group.00:29:50.000 --> 00:30:09.000Erik Mogensen: and still push and plow forward, and compete. So, you know, and I… look, I don't judge a ski area by its vertical. Don't judge a ski area by how many high-speed lifts it has. I think that's the mistake that we keep getting pulled into in skiing. And our… it's the mistake that we make as well as operators, and we…00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:16.000Erik Mogensen: we pass that mistake on to the consumers, right? Bigger is not better, it's just bigger.00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:33.000Erik Mogensen: Faster is not better. It's just faster, right? More lifts. Sure, that sounds great, but you have to pay for those lifts as well. And so that is going to there's that money doesn't just come from the sky that that money is going to be passed on to the consumer.00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:41.000Erik Mogensen: And the more and more we continue to do that, the more and more expensive and exclusive skiing's gonna become. So, again, I'll bring it back to…00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:51.000Erik Mogensen: One of the greatest advantages these places have are being small, are having slow lifts, are being independent, are being authentic. And that's exactly what Smugs is.00:30:51.000 --> 00:31:01.000Stuart Winchester: However, SMUGS also has 2,600 feet of vertical, 1,000 acres of skiing, and 322 inches of average snowfall. The numbers do help.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:08.000Erik Mogensen: They do, but I'll leave the numbers to your spreadsheets that I can barely understand at this point.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:03.000Stuart Winchester: The numbers do help, though, it's offline.00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:10.000Stuart Winchester: Well, that makes two of us and probably everyone else.00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.000Erik Mogensen: Those will speak for themselves.00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so having Jay and Smugs on there is an awesome combo. You know, I think that…00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:28.000Stuart Winchester: Indy and Doug before you, when Doug… I know Doug's still heavily involved, but the founder of the Indy Pass, Doug Fish. I think you have done a great job of building these little nodes of skiing.00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:44.000Stuart Winchester: around the country, and now around the world. So the… the donut hole has always kind of been Colorado, Utah, Tahoe, and that's because that's where Epic and Icon logically went. Those are the three biggest ski markets. But I want to talk a little bit first about the Midwest, where.00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:59.000Stuart Winchester: Indy built a really nice network, and you have a lot of ski areas in the Midwest. You have… 37. Uh, you've had some big departures this year. Lutzen, Granite Peak, and Snow River, run by Midwest Family Ski Resorts.00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:16.000Stuart Winchester: Went over to Icon, and Lutzen is, for the listeners, biggest ski area in Minnesota. It skis like a New England ski area. Granite Peak, you know, lots of high-speed lifts. Charles Skinner really turned that place from a dump into something nice. And the Snow River's on the come up. It's in a nice snow belt in Michigan.00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:19.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, you know, how much…00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:27.000Stuart Winchester: Did you see those as drivers of IndyPass sales in the Midwest? And how concerned, if at all, are you that they departed?00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:41.000Erik Mogensen: Well, look, let's… let's talk… I mean, the moose in the room here is that that… that loss sucks for us. Like, there's no way around it. Um, it… it… it's a bummer. It stings. Uh, I really like Charles Skinner. I really like Charlotte. I think they're both.00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:57.000Erik Mogensen: really great operators. They're very, very smart. They're very, very sharp. We had a we had a great call around when we kind of showed them what the revenue was in their last season, and we talked through it, and very, very amicable. I've always relied. Have some great, you know, dinner conversations with Charles.00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:12.000Erik Mogensen: And and I think they're great. They they have to make a move. They made a business decision to go to Icon and Icon makes that very, very, very attractive. You know whether or not that initial sales pitch.00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:29.000Erik Mogensen: translates into the long-term vision? I don't know. I firmly believe that, you know, Midwest skiers are some of the most authentic and purposeful, you know, skiers on the continent, and they'll figure it out. I think we have lots of options, there's no question.00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:38.000Erik Mogensen: But none of them are going to be quite like those Midwest family resorts. And so we'll have to see what happens. It stings, but I don't.00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:42.000Erik Mogensen: What I've really learned about Indy is that.00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:47.000Erik Mogensen: Our our strength is in the diversity of of.00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:56.000Erik Mogensen: the resorts that we've put together. It's not on a… it's not on a single one resort, or a single resort operator. Um, so…00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:01.000Erik Mogensen: I hate losing resorts, but I'm never afraid to lose them and/or replace them if necessary.00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:12.000Stuart Winchester: So, when they go to ICON, there's a couple different tiers for ICON. So, Midwest family went to the traditional 7-5 tier of 7 on full ICON, 5 on ICON base. Today.00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:19.000Stuart Winchester: I kind of announced that Cabaret, a former IndyPass partner that actually just left Indy, was a founding member in 2019.00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:32.000Stuart Winchester: left for Icon. That news just broke. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. Buck Hill similarly left Indy for Icon today, a couple of years ago. Is that too new to process, or what are your thoughts on Cabra Fact?00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:48.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I think it's exactly the same where, you know, we, we, you know, Cabrifay is a great ski area. Um, we're sad to see them go. We, you know, look, they're independent for a reason. They get to make their choice. They've made their choice. They're going to go to Icon. The consumers can make their choice of where they go and where they want to.00:34:48.000 --> 00:35:05.000Erik Mogensen: they want to spend their time and money. You know, we're going to fight as hard as we can to drive as much value for the operators and the consumers as possible. I can tell you, we had some people that had left for that icon two day product that now want to come back because of the payout.00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:04.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:22.000Erik Mogensen: Or lack thereof. So, look, none of this is static. One thing I can absolutely guarantee everybody on the pass and everyone listening to this is, is this is going to happen every single year forever. You're going to have people come, you're going to have people go. And we're all going to think it's way more consequential.00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:33.000Erik Mogensen: than it actually is. The reality is, is that indie sales for the last 7 seasons continue to go like this, and we're directing more and more.00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:39.000Erik Mogensen: revenue, meaningful revenue to these independent resorts. And that's not going to stop.00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:43.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. The, uh… another place you have…00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:45.000Stuart Winchester: Good.00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:55.000Stuart Winchester: cluster is the Pacific Northwest. Mission Ridge and Blacktail, which are jointly owned, recently announced that they left, and I reached out.00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:57.000Stuart Winchester: to…00:35:57.000 --> 00:35:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mission Ridge.00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:06.000Stuart Winchester: COO and GM Matt Neubauer, and I just asked him, you know, what's going on, and this was his email, this is a quote.00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mission Ridge's agreement ran through the end of the 25-26 season, and we declined to seek a new one. Being independent means making the calls we think are right for the mountain long term.00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:32.000Stuart Winchester: So, that's basically echoing what you just said, the mountains will make the right decision. Uh, Blacktail's situation is different. This is a continuation of the email. Uh, they reached out to establish a new agreement before the old one ended and did not get engagement on it. Indy did reach out after passes, went back on sale September 1st, but by then, Blacktail had moved on.00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:42.000Stuart Winchester: and was preparing for the season ahead. So that was the rationale that I have for Matt. He didn't want to talk about it further publicly, but that was his on-the-record statement.00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:59.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I, I, you know, look, Stu, I, I think as good as it is for your ratings, you know, I, we're not gonna hang out every, every scary as, you know, laundry and every single conversation. Um, I would disagree with how that was had. I think, I think one of the greatest things about India is we have.00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:09.000Erik Mogensen: 300-plus resorts around the world. One of the hard things about Indy is that we have 300-plus resorts around the world. It's a lot of contracts to manage, it's a lot of things.00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:07.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:19.000Erik Mogensen: I could, like, tell you from the ski area operating, um, perspective, like, I feel everything's nice and chill all summer, and we're doing really good, and then all of a sudden it's, you know.00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:35.000Erik Mogensen: September 1st, and it's like, wow, we got a lot to do in the next 60 days before we make snow. And I think every single ski area operator runs through that. Uh, and there's a lot going back. Stu, sometimes I have to go look at your spreadsheets to understand who's on the pass.00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:52.000Erik Mogensen: That's why we usually give everything to you ahead of time so that you can, like, count them up and do the math and do everything. So it's hard. But I would say, that team at Blacktail is world class. Jesse is and is incredible. We've I've always had a great relationship with Jesse.00:37:52.000 --> 00:38:08.000Erik Mogensen: We'd welcome them on the pass. I don't think that that's changed. And I think that Blacktail and Mission Ridge are two very different ski areas. And I'm really fascinated and hopeful that they figure out a way.00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:10.000Erik Mogensen: how to make the whole thing work between the two of them.00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you still have a really nice set of resorts out there with White Pass, and 49 Degrees North, and Mount Hood Meadows, and Bluewood, and Brundage, and Tamarack. And Tamarack's interesting, because so Tamarack, and I want to clarify this, I've actually gotten a lot of inquiries about this, people emailing me telling me my charts are wrong.00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:43.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, which… which happens, you know, they're… they're big and… and, uh, unwieldy, so I get things wrong, but that's… they're always a work in progress. But, uh, they're telling me Tamarack's not in the past because they joined Icon today, which… which obviously they did. Uh…00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:46.000Stuart Winchester: So what's going on with Tamarack? Are they on Indy?00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:59.000Erik Mogensen: Tamarack's on Indy, um, you know, we're excited about Tamarack, we've always been excited about Tamarack. Again, Scott, really great operator, um, super smart guy, great ownership group.00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:13.000Erik Mogensen: You know, I think we could probably comment on that a little bit further. But you know my job is not to speak for these resorts, Stu. My my job is to support them, and there's a difference between supporting them and speaking for them.00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:20.000Erik Mogensen: So, I'll always support them, and what Tamarack decides to do and where they decide to sit is good, but.00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:23.000Erik Mogensen: I'm comfortable saying that Tamarack's on Indy.00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, in general, you know, when Buck Hill joined the Icon 2 Day last year, you said adios. I think that's what was my understanding from a distance, correct me if I'm wrong. What was different about the Tamarack situation? Why are you making the exception for Tamarack?00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:52.000Erik Mogensen: Look, I think, look, Icon's aggressive. They're aggressive. They're trying to add as many people as they possibly can to that two-day pass. You know, I think that there's a lot of promises on that, and I think they have a very aggressive sales team.00:39:52.000 --> 00:40:08.000Erik Mogensen: Which is which is good. They're they're, you know, trying to replicate what Indy has done. So we'll just have to see what happens. But I would say that I would I would say that, you know, I have a I have a good relationship with a couple people over in that organization.00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:15.000Erik Mogensen: And I think they're trying to figure out what they're going to do. But there's no question that we're in, you know, pretty intense competition right now.00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:18.000Stuart Winchester: All right, let's…00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:32.000Stuart Winchester: wrap up on that. Let's talk about Snow King, because the Indy Pass, you know, part of the reason the Indy Pass is able to grow so fast, from my point of view, was Doug had this great insight that the ski areas that Epic and Icon were overlooking.00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:38.000Stuart Winchester: Did have value collected onto a pass, and when you put them all together as a dynamite product.00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:47.000Stuart Winchester: and now I think, as you said, ICON's going for that, and then you have the Snow Pass, and the Snow Pass, uh…00:40:47.000 --> 00:41:02.000Stuart Winchester: has signed Snow King as a partner, and that's a long-time Indy Pass partner, and I can read these emails if you'd like, or you can just talk through it yourself on how you see the Snow King.00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:03.000Stuart Winchester: um…00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:05.000Stuart Winchester: conflict here.00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:20.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, look, I wouldn't really say that there is any controversy here. I think Snow King is staying on Indy. Um, you know, Ryan and I never discussed any sort of litigation, and I connected him directly with you so that he could, you know, explain the situation for himself.00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:36.000Erik Mogensen: Look, again, it's not my job to get out in front and speak for these resorts. These are really great resorts with phenomenal and sophisticated operators, and they can speak for themselves. So, what I can do, Stu, is, you know, say, hey, Ryan.00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:43.000Erik Mogensen: you know, you're on Indy, and you're not on the snow pass, copy you on that email, and then you can read the email to the group.00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:46.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, the email…00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:50.000Stuart Winchester: from Ryan said.00:41:51.000 --> 00:42:06.000Stuart Winchester: Stuart, hi Stuart, this is Ryan Stanley, General Manager of Snow King. That is correct, we're going to remain on the Indy Pass this upcoming season and also offer two free tickets to the Snow Pass holders without receiving compensation, meaning Snow King will not receive compensation.00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:16.000Stuart Winchester: We are fairly desperate for some skier visits and are working on an offer for free and or $20 tickets to other pass holders as well. You know, I…00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:18.000Stuart Winchester: Ran this…00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:20.000Stuart Winchester: Bye.00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:22.000Stuart Winchester: Snow pass and.00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:26.000Stuart Winchester: I can read this email from Joe Heschen that he sent me today.00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:33.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, he said, Hi Stuart, I'm a bit confused by how this has become so complex. As stated, we have signed a signed agreement with Snow King.00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:43.000Stuart Winchester: While I would like to keep their details confidential, you are welcome to share ours. Our goal with this is not to profit, but rather to gather a group to work together for the betterment of the industry.00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:56.000Stuart Winchester: And then, it sounds like Snow King will be working with Indy and Snow Pass this season, which is great news for them. Thank you. Go Hessian. So, from Snow Pass's point of view, Snow King is still on both passes.00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:16.000Erik Mogensen: I don't know, Stu's starting to sound like a big old, you know, fun high school group text message here. I don't, I, you know, I don't know what to tell you. Um, again, I think Ryan's email's pretty clear. I'm not gonna speak for Ryan, not gonna speak for Joe. Um, they're definitely, you know, Snow King is definitely on the Indy Pass. We're definitely gonna pay them, just like we have.00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:21.000Erik Mogensen: every year. We're definitely gonna push a lot of visits to them. Um, you know, I'm not…00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:33.000Erik Mogensen: entirely sure, uh, beyond that. Uh, and, and, you know, Ryan, again, Ryan's a really smart guy. I've enjoyed talking to him. Um, I've spent a…00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:49.000Erik Mogensen: few, you know, longer phone calls, and he is desperate for skier visits, and I get that. He's a small skier area in the shadow of Jackson Hole, and doesn't have a ton of population to pull from. Most of the population that's coming through is destination visits.00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:57.000Erik Mogensen: And he needs more skier visits. We… we want Snow King to get skier visits. We… we… and if Ryan wants to comp…00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:07.000Erik Mogensen: you know, snow pass holders, or icon pass holders, or epic pass holders, then that's fine. I think that's great. But just because Ryan is going to comp.00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:18.000Erik Mogensen: the Snow Pass doesn't mean that he's on the Snow Pass, and just because Ryan is going to comp Icon Pass holders, that doesn't mean that he's joined the Icon Pass. Um, all I can come down to, again.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:27.000Erik Mogensen: is that Snow King's on the Indy Pass, um, and from our perspective, they're giving some free tickets to some of the other passes.00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:35.000Erik Mogensen: Hopefully, that checks everyone's box for early September ski area drama.00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:43.000Stuart Winchester: All right, it is an ongoing story. I just have a lot of conflicting information from…00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:56.000Erik Mogensen: What we should do is just, you know, get Uncle Joe on the call, and get Ryan on the call, and you on the call, and we all talk about it, right? Like, I think it's… I don't think it's that complicated, and frankly, it's not that big of a deal.00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:12.000Erik Mogensen: And I question the intentions behind making it a big deal. I think that, you know, Snowpass is definitely looking for us to bite into a controversy, and we're just not going to.00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:22.000Erik Mogensen: We're just not going to. We… our job is to focus on the independent resorts and make sure that we drive more visits to more independent resorts.00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:23.000Erik Mogensen: more often.00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:31.000Erik Mogensen: It's really simple, you know, and I think, I think in general too, Stu, like, you know.00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:26.000Stuart Winchester: Do you? Yeah.00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:46.000Erik Mogensen: What I've gotten from a lot of our operators and partners and people in skiing is they're just very confused by this. And again, it might be good for ratings or listeners, but there is no litigation here.00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:56.000Erik Mogensen: there is no problem with Snow King. They're a great, valued partner. You know, this comment, you know, an idea around democratizing skiing, right? Like.00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:08.000Erik Mogensen: you know, let's let every resort build their own reciprocal deal with, you know, Jersey Joe's commission-based software pitch, right? That's cute, that sounds nice, but in practice, IndiePass exists for a reason.00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:12.000Erik Mogensen: It's a lot more work for skier is and most importantly.00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:20.000Erik Mogensen: It's much more fragmented and a confusing product for the consumer. A single pass with a single price point.00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:22.000Erik Mogensen: And a lot of partners.00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:28.000Erik Mogensen: you know, mitigates the patchwork of one-off deals, and that's the whole reason IndyPass exists.00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:37.000Erik Mogensen: More people skiing more often at independent resorts, right? Like, we redirect tens of millions of dollars a year to independent operators.00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:48.000Erik Mogensen: Arguing that somehow the absence of the IndyPass is better for the industry is nonsensical at best. It would just give Icon and Epic a more…00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:51.000Erik Mogensen: More opportunity to eat our lunch. So…00:46:51.000 --> 00:47:02.000Erik Mogensen: you know, we can… we can dive into all the muddy details all day long, but I don't see any controversy here. We're super excited to have snowpack… I mean…00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:04.000Erik Mogensen: Snow King.00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:15.000Erik Mogensen: on the Indy Pass. Um, and, you know, maybe you just have to come up with a different color for it on your spreadsheet, like some sort of gradient between the two. Whatever you want to do, we trust you.00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:32.000Stuart Winchester: Let me zoom out a little and make this a little more conceptual, because you've told me before that IndyPass doesn't make money, and I believe you're still sticking to Doug's original ratio of 15% for admin, which I doubt covers admin. So 85% traditionally was paid out to the resorts, correct?00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:49.000Erik Mogensen: Correct. Oh, yeah. Still the case. Yeah. No, I mean, look, we, we, you know, 85% of every passport just goes back to the independents. And remember, look, we, we take 100% of our money in on credit cards. We pay the ski resorts in check cash. Right. So we're also eating that credit card fee.00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:36.000Stuart Winchester: Is that still it? Okay.00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:59.000Erik Mogensen: So now you're down to, you know, 12% in change. Running a pass like this, it's not profitable. We never looked at this as being profitable.00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:53.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:10.000Erik Mogensen: I really bought IndyPass because I knew that Doug was going to exit and needed to exit, and I thought some of the other people that would buy the pass.00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:21.000Erik Mogensen: would view it more as a media company or a marketing opportunity, and less of something that I think is very important for the independents. So…00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:39.000Erik Mogensen: Uh, you know, Snowpass has committed to giving 80% back, um, to the resorts in their first year, and then something else beyond that, right? And the difference between 80% and 5%, right? You know, it sounds like 5%, but if you actually do the math, that's a 25% difference.00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:49.000Erik Mogensen: Uh, and so we pay every resort the same percentage back of their, you know, top ticket price. We've always done that, um, so…00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:55.000Erik Mogensen: That's what we do, that's what we've done, that's what worked, and that's what we.00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:59.000Stuart Winchester: So to zoom out to the conceptual level a little bit here, I want to look at…00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:09.000Stuart Winchester: Snow King's neighbor, Jackson Hole. Okay, so Jackson Hole is on Icon. They're also on Mountain Collective. You've taken a pretty firm stand that Indy.00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:16.000Stuart Winchester: partners should be exclusive with Indy. If you're looking at a ski area like Snow King that is desperate for.00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:18.000Stuart Winchester: for visits.00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:24.000Stuart Winchester: why cut that pathway off? Why is it important to make indie exclusive and not say, okay.00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:39.000Stuart Winchester: case by case, if you're, uh, you know, certain resorts, if we don't have an exclusivity agreement with you, like, maybe you want to give, you know, Brundage a higher payout because they're a destination and… and to be exclusive, but maybe some of these other ones, you give them all the tools in the toolbox. What…00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:42.000Stuart Winchester: Why is that not an option? Or is it an option?00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:48.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I just, I think it complicates things, number one. Number two, I just don't find it very equitable. The great thing about IndyPass, look, I get…00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:58.000Erik Mogensen: There's a lot of conversations all the time when we have a larger resort wanting to join, or has joined, or wants to renew about getting a bigger payout.00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:08.000Erik Mogensen: What I can tell you for as long as I own and run IndyPass, I'm going to treat every single resort the same. I'm not going to make special side deals.00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:14.000Erik Mogensen: That's just what we're going to do. I think it's a mistake to do that.00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:20.000Erik Mogensen: Everyone's going to get the same. Everyone's going to be the same. Everyone's going to get the same percentage payout.00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:15.000Stuart Winchester: It.00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:23.000Erik Mogensen: No special deals.00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:37.000Stuart Winchester: So let me wrap on that point. So you added Smugs, your New England network is lights out. You know, like I said, Jay, Smugs, Cannon, Waterville, Saddleback, and a bunch of smaller places, including Black Mountain. Doug was concerned when he started the pass.00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:48.000Stuart Winchester: About dilution in the marketplace, and if you put too many ski areas in a market, you would both cannibalize their season pass, and drive down their yield, or their eventual payout.00:50:49.000 --> 00:51:04.000Stuart Winchester: you have filled in a lot more density, and when I've asked you about it in the past, you said that's a data-driven decision, so can you break that down for us, and what gives you confidence that adding smugs is not going to take away from.00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:08.000Stuart Winchester: Fulton Valley, or Jay Peak, or Cannon, or Titus.00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:23.000Erik Mogensen: Well, we know exactly how many pass holders we're adding every single year, right? We, we have a unique control over how many passes we sell, right? So we have, we know the data that comes in on one lever and we 100% control the amount.00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:43.000Erik Mogensen: of passes in that lever that we sell. So it's just simple math, right? It isn't even that complex of a spreadsheet. Uh, you wouldn't even have to have it in a spreadsheet. So we need to add enough customers to make sure that we don't over dilute Bolton's payout or those things. And what's remarkable is the data shows us this is, I think now our fourth season.00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:49.000Erik Mogensen: of owning and operating the IndyPass is that we just keep going in the right direction.00:51:49.000 --> 00:52:04.000Erik Mogensen: And that's the reality. Like, JPEAK and Bolton's payout, the check that they get from IndyPass and take to the bank to pay their bills and buy more chairlifts and more snowmaking pipe and pay their employees, is only getting bigger and bigger.00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:08.000Erik Mogensen: With smugs on the pass. And again, I cannot.00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:23.000Erik Mogensen: reiterate enough how sophisticated of an operator these guys are. Like, the DeLauriers are smart. They see the numbers, you know? Christian Knapp at PGRI, he sees the numbers. Steve Wright, these are smart guys. John Schaefer, the…00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:27.000Erik Mogensen: Really smart. You know, if they figure it out.00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:30.000Erik Mogensen: I think that that itself.00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Jay has been, uh, has recommitted to Indy several times, uh, through one-year contracts. All right, Eric, IndyPass is still on sale?00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:56.000Erik Mogensen: Uh, 80 Pass is on sale right now, yes. I think what we've announced is we've said tomorrow's the day. I think we could go into midday Saturday. Um, it's… it's hard to tell, right? We look at a couple numbers, we look at people that have put things in their cart, and what the potential conversion rate is, and where things go, and…00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:01.000Erik Mogensen: the geography around them. We definitely have a very firm ceiling on what we're gonna sell.00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:10.000Erik Mogensen: When we're going to sell that through, that's the hard part. But yeah, we've identified that tomorrow's the day.00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:16.000Stuart Winchester: And this will be the end of 26-27 IndyPass sales guaranteed, or is there a chance for a flash December sale or something?00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:30.000Erik Mogensen: There is never a guarantee of anything in this thing. We are talking to some pretty major additions as well that I think would be meaningful, and we'll have to decide if that's a this year thing or a next year thing with them.00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:20.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:46.000Stuart Winchester: I mean, you've already added over 40 new partners. India has more partners than Epic, Icon, Mountain Collective, Snowpass, and Mountain Collective Capital's Powerpass combined around the world. So you're saying we should expect or could expect more partners?00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:32.000Erik Mogensen: Alright.00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:49.000Stuart Winchester: In advance of the 26-27 winter?00:53:48.000 --> 00:54:02.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I can tell you that there will definitely be some more. And I think, Stu, it's actually about 60 new additions. And I know you don't like to count the cross-country ski areas, but we should maybe find a separate tab for them on the spreadsheet.00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:12.000Erik Mogensen: Every ski area matters to us here, whether it's cross country or downhill or big or small. I think that's what makes us different.00:54:11.000 --> 00:54:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you know, I didn't start stop counting them out of malice. I stopped because I couldn't really understand them, and the maps kind of looked like a brain scan, and some would leave, and it was just a lot. I was already trying to track too much.00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:44.000Stuart Winchester: I will take that piece of advice, though, and I will see if I can find a place where they make sense. Eric, really appreciate everything today, appreciate everything you're doing with Indy and Black Mountain, and look forward to catching up with you again really soon.00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:49.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah. Thanks so much, Stu. Keep those spreadsheets going, dude.00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:47.000Stuart Winchester: Alright.00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:51.000Stuart Winchester: That's all I do.00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:52.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I know. See ya.00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:53.000Stuart Winchester: All right, take care.00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:53.000Erik Mogensen: Bye.00:54:55.000 --> 00:55:05.000Stuart Winchester: All right, that was Eric Mogensen, director of IndyPass, owner of Black Mountain, responding to some of the questions.00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:21.000Stuart Winchester: initial conversation I had with Joe Heschen the other day. So, uh, that's great. We have no more clarity on Snow King, and this episode went a little off the rails, because I need to… there's gonna be a lot of experimentation here, guys.00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:35.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the… the opening take, I'm realizing, I don't know if I should be recording that before the guest. I think maybe I need to start with the guest, because otherwise, I end up having to cut myself short. So…00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:39.000Stuart Winchester: I want to get to some reader reaction.00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:42.000Stuart Winchester: To close us out today.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:44.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:47.000Stuart Winchester: The first comes from…00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:49.000Stuart Winchester: Matt Hart.00:55:49.000 --> 00:56:03.000Stuart Winchester: He said, really, this is in reaction to Brian Norton's interview yesterday about Loon Mountain's expansion. Matt Hart, really good, loved Brian's description of the expansion and how they will make it work from an operations point of view.00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:06.000Stuart Winchester: Catcher's mitt for snow, love it.00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:21.000Stuart Winchester: And then, and then Matt asks, did he give you grief for calling the Timbertown expansion that little one LOL? I, no, he didn't, but, but it is, I mean, it was a 30 acre expansion on a huge ski area. So, uh, I don't know, maybe, I think they, uh.00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:36.000Stuart Winchester: you know, I'm always the tourist, so anytime I'm asking these guys anything, they… I think that it sounds a little ridiculous, because they live it every day of their life. It would be like them asking me a question about my cats, you know, it's something that I'm around every day.00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:46.000Stuart Winchester: All right, this is a comment from Robert, a paid subscriber, which is the way you can interact with the show is to be a paid subscriber to the Storm Skiing Podcast.00:56:46.000 --> 00:57:00.000Stuart Winchester: Robert says, again, of the Brian Norton pod yesterday, great second effort. Are you planning to stick to a drop time of about 4 p.m. Eastern time? What is your anticipated schedule? Daily, four days a week, three?00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:07.000Stuart Winchester: 4pm drop makes for a nice way to wrap up the day, at least for those in a compatible time zone.00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:22.000Stuart Winchester: And then Brian Bench, paid subscriber, says, ditto on sharing the anticipated schedule. We humans are creatures of habit, and so would be great to know when we can generally expect these to land. Excited for your chat with Eric today. Well…00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:23.000Stuart Winchester: Brian.00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:26.000Stuart Winchester: I have an amazing guest.00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:29.000Stuart Winchester: scheduled for…00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:46.000Stuart Winchester: Sep

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication. The only way to interact with the podcast is to upgrade to The Storm's paid tier. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.Welcome to the Storm's short-form, news-focused podcast. Don't worry, I will still write newsletters too (I blasted out this post on Smuggs joining Indy Pass this morning). To browse a podcast transcript, click the “transcript” button above - click on any block of text and the audio will jump to that point in the conversation. Paid subscribers can leave a comment in the article below, or by joining The Storm's chat (also below). I'll respond to some comments in the next episode. The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:56.000Stuart Winchester: Welcome to Storm. It is September 9th, 2026 on a Wednesday. I've got a really great show for you today. We are going to visit with Loon President and General Manager, Brian Norton, who has been on the show before.00:01:56.000 --> 00:02:04.000Stuart Winchester: But we are going to have him on to talk about the Blackridge expansion that Loon announced last week.00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:10.000Stuart Winchester: There's actually a couple of expansion items in the news today, and I want to hit on those first before we get to Brian.00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:27.000Stuart Winchester: Altera today confirmed a couple of things we already knew in their 2026 to 27 capital plan. So unlike Vale who tends to release all their lifts and expansions and projects at once, Vale or Altera lets them leak out.00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:41.000Stuart Winchester: and then officially announces them sometime later. So, we had a pretty good idea these were coming. The first one will be up at Mont Tremblant, and Tremblant is…00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:44.000Stuart Winchester: If you've been there, it's…00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:55.000Stuart Winchester: an IntraWest legacy, so it has one of these really nice walkable villages of the sort that I'm always pushing for, and it has really great ski terrain. Busiest… it's…00:02:55.000 --> 00:03:11.000Stuart Winchester: Traditionally, Intrawest had the three busiest ski areas in Canada. They had, uh, Whistler was number one, obviously. Number two was Tremblant, and number three, surprisingly, was Blue Mountain, Ontario, which we covered on in the podcast.00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:14.000Stuart Winchester: Pretty recently, but I want to…00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:19.000Stuart Winchester: show you something here. So this is why it's cool to watch, because you can see…00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:31.000Stuart Winchester: some of these things on YouTube or Substack if you're watching the podcast. So this is Tremblant's timber expansion that they're gonna open for 27 to 28. They're gonna have a new.00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:46.000Stuart Winchester: quad, high-speed quad, coming up to the Timber Summit with 8 new trails over here. Uh, and that's gonna be… let's see, they gave an acreage on that, 62 acres. So sometimes it's hard when you see these things, especially if you don't know the mountain.00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:57.000Stuart Winchester: to really know where it fits in. So this one, here's from the top, you can see the new trails, the timber trails, coming down here off of the new.00:03:57.000 --> 00:04:09.000Stuart Winchester: high-speed quad that'll come out of the Versant-Soleil base. And then here is the existing, if you're watching, here's the existing lift that comes up to the current Tremblant Summit.00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:19.000Stuart Winchester: And you can see that right here. So the new expansion will go bloop right up here, and we'll have some new trails over there. And then Altera also announced.00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:32.000Stuart Winchester: or not really announced, but reconfirmed, that will be when the Club Med is open, so that all-inclusive experience will be there for Tremblant. So, nice expansion coming for Tremblant. Obviously.00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:42.000Stuart Winchester: Altera has had a big expansion ongoing at Deer Valley for years and years. So, Deer Valley, prior to 2023.00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:46.000Stuart Winchester: was really just Bald Mountain.00:04:46.000 --> 00:05:02.000Stuart Winchester: On over to Empire. Uh, and then here's the front side, and then this little baldy peak was here. But over the past three seasons, they've really blown the place out and added thousands and thousands of acres. Uh, Deer Valley, believe it or not, is now the…00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:18.000Stuart Winchester: Sixth largest ski area in America. And, and they're opening 200 more acres this year. Hale Peak will be another high speed quad. I don't have a vertical on Hale Peak, but they did confirm today that Hale Peak will be.00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:29.000Stuart Winchester: 200 acres, so Deer Valley will now total 4,500 acres. It looks, it sounds pretty big, but right next door to it is Park City, which.00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:45.000Stuart Winchester: Combined with the historic canyons is 7,300 acres. That's the largest ski area in the United States. So those are a couple of the expansions that we have coming up. We'll talk about another one in a little bit with Loon. And the reason I wanna talk about expansions with you.00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:47.000Stuart Winchester: Is… is I… I…00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:58.000Stuart Winchester: I write about this over and over again, but sometimes when I write an article, it fritters off into the wilderness, and I'm not able to…00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:12.000Stuart Winchester: it doesn't have the staying power necessarily where people might find it sometime later. So I want to revisit some of these points that I made in the past about expansions and how important they are. So I wrote this article a few years ago.00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:14.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:18.000Stuart Winchester: I was looking at…00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:34.000Stuart Winchester: So everyone always gets hung up on this active ski ski areas number. And the NSA has tracked this for years and years. And here's the numbers you can see on the screen if you're watching in 1991 to 92 season.00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:46.000Stuart Winchester: The United States had 546 active ski areas. As of 2023 to 24, it had 486. The number for this season was right around 490.00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:49.000Stuart Winchester: So, oftentimes.00:06:49.000 --> 00:07:04.000Stuart Winchester: We will see articles usually written by folks who are not ski media, just general media, and they'll write about this number and they'll find this statistic and they'll point to the declining number of ski areas and say, skiing is dying. Climate change is killing skiing.00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:17.000Stuart Winchester: But there's actually a much more nuanced story behind that. So I pulled this number last year when I was reading an article from The Motley Fool, which is an investor site that I use. I love The Motley Fool.00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:24.000Stuart Winchester: But it was talking about MTN stock, which a lot of you know is the stock ticker for Vail Resorts.00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:33.000Stuart Winchester: And the Motley Fool article pointed out that in 1992, and this was their bear case, their case against buying MTN stock.00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:44.000Stuart Winchester: During… I'm gonna quote here, the Motley Fool. During the 1992 ski season, there were 546 ski areas operating in the United States, compared to 486 today. This article's from 2025.00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:57.000Stuart Winchester: Supply, says the fool, is flat to shrinking. On the demand side, 3 of the top 5 busiest ski seasons on record occurred each of the last 3 years. Demand is up. So, they were trying to make the point that.00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:07.000Stuart Winchester: Vail Resorts had a very valuable commodity, because the number of ski areas was shrinking. I said, wait a second, this doesn't really make sense, because…00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:11.000Stuart Winchester: How are you having so many fewer?00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:25.000Stuart Winchester: ski areas, and so many more skier visits? Well, the answer is pretty simple. We have a lot more ski terrain. In fact, I did an analysis in response to that Fool article.00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:27.000Stuart Winchester: And I found, just examining…00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:30.000Stuart Winchester: The 11 western ski states.00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:40.000Stuart Winchester: that, minus Alaska, that those 11 states had 54,598 more acres of terrain.00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:50.000Stuart Winchester: available at their ski areas, their lift service ski areas, than they had in 1994. So, yes, there are fewer ski areas.00:08:50.000 --> 00:09:00.000Stuart Winchester: now than there were in the early 90s. There were 546 in 92, 486 today, but there's a lot more terrain, and so what ended up happening was.00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:08.000Stuart Winchester: The ski areas that were successful expanded. It was as simple as that. And when I did this analysis.00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:10.000Stuart Winchester: I looked at…00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:24.000Stuart Winchester: I looked at 92 ski areas that I had the data for from 1992, and they happen to be some of the biggest ski areas in the West. And I compared their acreage in 1994 according to a guidebook I had from that date that I'd kept.00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:30.000Stuart Winchester: 107,671 acres was the total for these ski areas.00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:45.000Stuart Winchester: Fast forward to 2025, when I did this analysis, those same 92 ski areas had grown from 107,671 acres to 159,754 acres.00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:55.000Stuart Winchester: Then I added in a few ski areas that had opened since then, places like Tamarack in Idaho, Blacktail in Montana. There hasn't been a lot, but there's been a few.00:09:55.000 --> 00:10:11.000Stuart Winchester: And then I subtracted the lost ski areas. The biggest of them was Ski Rio in New Mexico. But for the most part, the ski areas that closed were small surface tow operations and they were in the region of a much larger area and most likely failed in large part.00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:29.000Stuart Winchester: Because they couldn't compete with that full service area, which could offer folks not only beginner terrain, but a progression up to more interesting terrain. So, there's a lot more ski terrain than there used to be, and to give you an idea of how much terrain 54,598 acres is.00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:36.000Stuart Winchester: Currently in Colorado, the whole state of Colorado, which has a quarter of the ski terrain in the entire United States.00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:42.000Stuart Winchester: there's 45,552 acres of terrain. So we've added the equivalent of another Colorado.00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:45.000Stuart Winchester: Now, there's a caveat to that.00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:48.000Stuart Winchester: The ski industry has been able to grow by expansion.00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:58.000Stuart Winchester: But it hasn't necessarily been able to grow where it needs to grow, and I made another point, a related point, in another recent article that I wrote.00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:11.000Stuart Winchester: for… about the U.S. Forest Service, and how most of the ski areas in the western United States are built on U.S. Forest Service land. They're leased from the U.S. Forest Service under 40-year terms.00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:18.000Stuart Winchester: However, following the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969, those permits.00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:33.000Stuart Winchester: got almost impossible to obtain new permits. The Forest Service had lots and lots of ski areas proposed, but they were all shut down. Everyone except for Beaver Creek and then Blacktail in 1998 were shut down with.00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:51.000Stuart Winchester: court challenges that came out of NEPA in 1969. So, while we have more terrain, skiable terrain, than we had in 1994, the reason it often feels as though the mountains are overcrowded and insufficiently distributed.00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:57.000Stuart Winchester: is because they are. Because we've only been able to expand the ski areas where they were.00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:10.000Stuart Winchester: rather than building new ski areas where people move to. Look at snowy regions like Washington and Oregon, some of the snowiest ski areas in the country. A lot of them still don't have snowmaking because they get so much snow there.00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:22.000Stuart Winchester: Washington in 1980 had 4.1 million people. Today it has 8.2 million people, double the population, but fewer ski areas and some larger.00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:37.000Stuart Winchester: Stevens Pass has certainly grown, Crystal has grown, Mission Ridge has grown. Oregon, same thing, went from 2.6 million people in 1980 to 4.3 million today, but has fewer ski areas now than it did in the 1980s. So…00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:48.000Stuart Winchester: For better or worse, we are stuck right now with growth through expansion. So, I want to get to an expansion. First, I want to tell you about one of my awesome partners.00:12:48.000 --> 00:13:00.000Stuart Winchester: I've been working with Bonfire Collective for a long time, and if you run a ski area or an outdoor brand, you should consider hooking up with them as well.00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:10.000Stuart Winchester: Bonfire Collective is a fractional marketing team that collaborates with ski areas and outdoor brands to give your marketing a fresh perspective and better storytelling.00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:16.000Stuart Winchester: Bonfire can help you rethink your approach in ways that can turbocharge your business.00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:31.000Stuart Winchester: Bonfire Collective, for example, took on the marketing at one New Hampshire sea area and doubled revenue in just three years. And when the storm was ready to invest in its first ever digital marketing campaign last year, I worked with Bonfire to make it happen.00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:36.000Stuart Winchester: I could not be happier with the results. I think you will love working with them too.00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:40.000Stuart Winchester: To get started, you will want to talk to Eric over at Bonfire Collective.00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:56.000Stuart Winchester: Eric was a co-founder of Bluebird Backcountry Colorado, the first human powered ski area. He knows the ski business, as many of you know from that episode of the Storm Skiing Podcast that he appeared on last year. Visit bonfirecollective.com or I will be happy.00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:03.000Stuart Winchester: to make that connection for you. Alright, with that, let's go to our guest for today.00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:08.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:15.000Stuart Winchester: Here he is, Mr. Brian Norton. Brian, what an awesome background! Where are you at?00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:19.000brian norton: Uh, I'm in my office, but that's hanging outside my office, so…00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:24.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay, cool, I thought maybe you were in the, uh, the kink barn with the, uh…00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:27.000Stuart Winchester: With that, with the cool groomer behind you.00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:44.000Stuart Winchester: All right, well, let me give you a proper introduction here. Uh, my guest today is president and general manager of Loon Mountain, New Hampshire since 2022. Loon claims New Hampshire's tallest vertical drop at 2,190 feet.00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:58.000Stuart Winchester: served by 13 lifts. Last week, Loon announced the 272-acre Black Ridge expansion that, when added to the resort's existing 403-acre footprint.00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:08.000Stuart Winchester: will make Lune the largest ski area in New Hampshire, and the sixth largest ski area in the eastern United States at 675 acres.00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:23.000Stuart Winchester: He began his Loon career in 2001 as a Lyft attendant, and now he's running the place. He is Brian Norton. Brian, welcome back to the storm. Always good to see what's new at Loon, because there is always something new at Loon. How you doing today, Brian?00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:29.000brian norton: I'm doing awesome. It's sweatshirt weather right now, so we're getting closer.00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:33.000Stuart Winchester: Nice. Did you do a snowmaking test yet, or is that Sunday River's ter.00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:38.000brian norton: No, we have not done that yet. Sunday will probably beat us to that one.00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:54.000Stuart Winchester: All right, let's talk about Black Ridge. This is really an amazing project, and I've been pretty vocal and frank over the years about what I saw as Loon's biggest shortcoming, which was not enough real expert terrain, and by that I really meant glades, wild terrain.00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:58.000Stuart Winchester: Talk to us about Black Ridge, what it is, and how it's going to change Loon.00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:14.000brian norton: Yeah, I mean, it's a pivotal project for the ski resort. As you mentioned, it's almost doubling the size of the ski resort. For those not familiar with it, it's this kind of secret shoulder glade skiing. It's been there.00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:30.000brian norton: It was developed over time by some locals just kind of going out there, you know, maybe not necessarily following the rules, certainly not at our approval, but people have been skiing there. I mean, I think the first time I went skiing over there, I was in college, like 2001, and it was like you had to kind of find your way over there. You had to commit to it.00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:28.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:42.000brian norton: beautiful, um, beautiful area. It's like a big catcher's mitt off the side of the ski resort that just holds snow really well, and there's a lot of, um, it's a mile and a quarter.00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:51.000brian norton: hike, uh, across a ridgeline. You can actually ski or skate most of it. There's a few sections where you have to, you know, unclick and walk and…00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:09.000brian norton: um, you just get this incredible glade scheme that brings you right back to the bottom of North Peak, so it's like this full circle, you're way the heck out there, there's a couple viewpoints where you can stand at this cliff and just look back at the ski resort and look into the town of Lincoln, you're like, whoa, I am way out there, but a completely different view than, you know, most people would.00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:23.000brian norton: would ever get to see from Loon. And so, yeah, we've been working on it for a couple years with the Forest Service, trying to, like, wrap that into our special use permit. And, um, yeah, super happy to have that announcement, kind of. Like I said, planning.00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:28.000brian norton: For a long time, but awesome to have that hit the newsstands the other day.00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:34.000Stuart Winchester: So help us understand Loon's Forest Service footprint. This is a conversation I'm accustomed to having with.00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:53.000Stuart Winchester: your partners who run western ski areas. There's very few, just 7 in New England, that touch Forest Service land. My understanding is that Loon is not entirely on Forest Service land. I believe it's Kissing Cousins Lift. You're riding up, and you see a sign, welcome to the White Mountains National Forest. So, where are those boundaries at?00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:55.000Stuart Winchester: at Loon.00:17:54.000 --> 00:18:05.000brian norton: Yeah, it's really just the bottom. I mean, like, pretty much if you can hit a golf ball there, you're on private land from a base area, hit it up, and then everything above there is forest service land, so…00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:05.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:09.000brian norton: Yeah, it's the top 95% of the skewers work.00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:07.000Stuart Winchester: So how?00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:16.000Stuart Winchester: Right, so Loon went through quite a process as I remember it back in the 90s to open up South Peak and there was…00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:22.000Stuart Winchester: a lot of resistance to that locally, and ultimately, you got it opened.00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:25.000Stuart Winchester: was…00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:30.000Stuart Winchester: if you look at Black Ridge, it's… there's no new lift, right? It's essentially…00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:35.000Stuart Winchester: Glade thinning. So, so I want to talk about the process for that in a minute, but.00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:45.000Stuart Winchester: What was the process like of working with the Forest Service? Did they seem much more amenable and does the local community seem much more amenable?00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:54.000Stuart Winchester: to this given the small actual environmental impact? And was that a consideration in deciding how to develop this terrain?00:18:54.000 --> 00:19:10.000brian norton: I mean, it was definitely a consideration for us as we think about, you know, growing the ski resort sustainably. I think the, you know, and our partnership with the Forest Service is a really great one. I hear, you know, different stories from around the industry or around the country.00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:26.000brian norton: I just can't speak highly enough of our team here and the relationship that we have with them. And, the fact that this was kind of already skiing, the fact that it was super low impact, we weren't ever going to put a lift or a lodge or some sort of, you know, driving snow cats over there. We're not even doing any of that.00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:31.000brian norton: really, so it was a small lift, I think, to bring this kind of.00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:43.000brian norton: thing that people were skiing into the permit boundary, which really, you know, there's some work to clean it up and to create slightly better access, mostly for our patrol team to react out there.00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:46.000brian norton: But this is, um…00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.000brian norton: It's a small lift to bring our…00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:52.000brian norton: Services, so that we can go, you know, in the past.00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:56.000brian norton: Someone would get hurt, someone would get lost ‘cause they thought they knew where they were going.00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:57.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:14.000brian norton: technically, we're supposed to call fish and game, and they're supposed to go rescue them. A lot of times, we helped with that. So, by bringing this into the permit boundary, we're allowed to help manage it. So, um, this is really a win-win for everyone. It's a win-win for the skiers, it's a win-win for the Forest Service, because now we can actually manage something that wasn'.00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:02.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:16.000brian norton: That's a great opportunity for us.00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it's going to be tremendous terrain. You know, another big difference between working in the East and the West is sometimes if you want to open 500 acres of glades in the West, you just drop a rope.00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:39.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, in the east, there tends to be a lot of undergrowth. Now, I don't know if that's the case at Loon, because maybe you have some old growth there, where the canopy is, is, has, you know, shut out some of that little stuff.00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:45.000Stuart Winchester: 200 and what is it, 267 acres? That's a lot of acres to clear.00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:55.000Stuart Winchester: What does it look like in there, and what is the… what is the labor lift gonna be like to glade that out and make it so that you don't need 4 feet of snow to ski it?00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:08.000brian norton: Um, we'll talk about snow in a minute, but in terms of glading, you get across the ridgeline, and you get to this… it's not the high point, like, the actual peak of the mountain, but the high point of the ridgeline.00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:23.000brian norton: And you kind of drop in there, and then it just funnels out both directions. And from that point, it's all hardwoods. And it's just… it's really open. You can kind of ski wherever you want. Now, we're gonna manage it slightly better, so there's better waypoint finding, you know, kind of…00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:42.000brian norton: more organized corridors. There's a river, uh, a stream valley that is between what I would call, you know, Black Ridge proper and, like, the North Peak Glades and Walking Boss, um, that you don't want to end up in, so that's kind of the part of the land that, you know, we're going to try to manage away from, and.00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:53.000brian norton: kind of cut that, you know, the extent of it, kind of clear those glades a little more, so that it's obvious, like, no, no, no, I want to go this way, or I want to go that way, so you all come back out to the… to.00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:57.000brian norton: But it's not a heavy lift to cut a lot out there.00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:54.000Stuart Winchester: So I.00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:13.000Stuart Winchester: So as far as snow goes, you mentioned a, a little catcher's mitt and along North Peak, and there are some terrific glades in lower New England. Stratton, I think has really, really excellent glades. Magic Mountain has some excellent glades. They're in a little bit different.00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:33.000Stuart Winchester: snow pocket, obviously, than you are, but also farther south. So, so talk to us, you know, Loon averages 160 inches of snow per year, but I don't know where you measure that, and I know that snow stays on different parts of the mountain in different ways, right? Because you can ski in New Hampshire in June on natural snow at Mount Washington and Tucks.00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:34.000Stuart Winchester: But…00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:39.000Stuart Winchester: That's not the case in most places. So, so talk to us about.00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:48.000Stuart Winchester: the snow in that area, and how often you think you'll realistically be able to offer that glade skiing experience in Black Ridge.00:22:48.000 --> 00:23:06.000brian norton: Yeah, I mean, I think it's gonna be… it's definitely a different experience, so we're gonna have different, um, opening protocols when that part of the mountain will open versus your traditional glade skiing, so it's gonna be a little more raw, a little more rugged, we're gonna be a little more free with opening it. Um, we're working through those kind of details with our patrol team right now.00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:23.000brian norton: Um, in terms of holding snow, predominant northeast wind here, everything cuts across the ski resort as you're looking at it, right to left, and guess what's far left? This, right? So, um, I'll tell you a funny story. We were walking over there with the Forest Service this.00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:25.000brian norton: Spring, and we're walking along the ridgeline.00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:38.000brian norton: And we're contemplating, like, how we get snowmobile access out there for our patrol team to, you know, manage this terrain in a reasonable amount of time to, like, respond to an incident. And we get to these two big boulders.00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:47.000brian norton: like, oh man, how are we gonna get a snowmobile through here? Like, it's… we can't get a machine all the way out here to move these boulders, what are we gonna do? And then it, like.00:23:47.000 --> 00:24:06.000brian norton: I don't remember seeing these boulders in the winter. That means there's 4 feet of snow here on this ridgeline, so it's like… it just… it's not the same as the rest of the ski resort when you think about, like, how that pocket holds snow and takes all the wind-deposited snow from the whole area and just stacks up in there, so it was a bit… it was eye-opening for us to be like.00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:54.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:59.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:11.000brian norton: Wait a minute, we don't see these in the winter, and they're 4-foot boulders, so.00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:28.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, man, you're really making me want to get back in there. You know, I did not mention in the intro that Loon is owned by Boyne Resorts, one of the 11 ski areas in the Boyne family. And Boyne has done just a tremendous amount of work over the past decade, putting in new lifts and doing expansions.00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:30.000Stuart Winchester: In fact, I think…00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:42.000Stuart Winchester: the last 5 expansions in New England were all Boyne Mountains. It was Brackett Basin, Burnt Mountain, it was, uh, Merrill Hill at Sunday River, it was the little one you did at Loon the other… the other, uh, couple years ago, and… and.00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:54.000Stuart Winchester: Black Ridge, you know, the one that this most echoes for Sugarloaf fans, and Sugarloaf is far, far, far, far north, but it's worth going to, is… is they opened that several hundred acre.00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:04.000Stuart Winchester: terrain expansion of Brackett Basin back in 2011. They expanded it with Burnt Ridge a few years later, and it's all natural bladed. How much…00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.000Stuart Winchester: Did you…00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:21.000Stuart Winchester: did Loon and the team at Loon use Bracket Basin as an inspiration, either… either to see as, like, a proof of concept this'll work, or… or just to imagine a… a different way of, uh… of expanding the resort without necessarily having to spend.00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:28.000Stuart Winchester: you know, $20 million on a new lift. Just talk about it, if there's any relationship there, or, you know, learning how to manage it, etc.00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:51.000brian norton: A lot for me personally, and for the team here. I mean, I'm not the the people that have been out there developing that glade skiing probably aren't necessarily thinking about bracket basin, but 100%. That was the equivalent. That was, you know, I've referred to it through this whole planning process as our version of bracket basin. We've been in communication with the team up there about how they manage it, what their entrance looks like all of those things. So.00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:54.000brian norton: Yeah, it's our version of that, 100%.00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:12.000Stuart Winchester: And just from a liability point of view, it's funny, because I grew up in Michigan, and I've been skiing the Boyne Mountains there since the 90s, and I remember you weren't allowed in the trees, and that was a big no-no. So now here you have, fast forward 30 years, and they're developing these enormous glade skiing pockets, and obviously Jay Peak was a leader.00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:17.000Stuart Winchester: our early leader in that, in New England. But what has Boyne learned, do you think.00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:25.000Stuart Winchester: by operating Brackett Basin for the last 15 years, about liability and skiers' abilities to self-manage in terrain like that.00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:36.000brian norton: Yeah, I mean, Sugarloaf, they're Sugarloafers, right? So they're a slightly different clientele than we have here, so I'm sure we'll learn different things. I think the big thing is, you know.00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:50.000brian norton: clear messaging, and… and with this project, it's… it's very different. I said it earlier, it's different than the rest of the Glades here, so, um, you gotta know what you're doing, and it's gonna be messaged that way, but it's gonna be managed that way, too, and…00:26:50.000 --> 00:27:06.000brian norton: it's gonna pull people around the resort and move people around to places that, you know, it's a bit of a destination now. Camp 3 in North Peak was already a destination, and now you've got another, you know, 300 acres or so just past there that's serviced by the same portal, so…00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:15.000brian norton: yeah, I think our patrol team's gonna have a little bit of work cut out for them, but frankly, the guys and girls that work for our team that are gonna end up over there, like.00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:18.000brian norton: They… they're looking forward to that, so…00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:22.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, well, let's talk about access a little bit. I'll tell you…00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:39.000Stuart Winchester: That, or the listeners at least, people who haven't been there. So you access this expansion through the North Peak lift. It's a high speed quad built in 2004, 1500 vertical foot, 4,800 foot long. But the view off the top is an absolute showstopper. It's one of the best.00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:49.000Stuart Winchester: in New England. I just love it. Uh, my question for you, Brian, is Flight Path 2030, your… your Loon 2030 plan, essentially 10-year plan, published around 2020.00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:55.000Stuart Winchester: did consider an upgrade for the North Peak lift. Now, it's obviously not a very old lift.00:27:55.000 --> 00:28:10.000Stuart Winchester: But I would imagine that there may be some volume considerations as you look to expand the terrain available off this lift. So, A, am I right in seeing that you will be able to fully lap Black Ridge?00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:17.000Stuart Winchester: on the North Peak lift? And B, do you have thoughts on what might be next for North Peak lift?00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:26.000brian norton: Um, yes, you access it from the top of that lift. The entrance is 150 feet from the top of that lift, maybe, off of Whatcom House.00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:45.000brian norton: the primary exit is slightly lower in elevation than North Peak. You come out onto Brookway Extension there, so if you really wanted to lap it, you'd probably unclick and go down there. More often than not, I think what people will do is they'll ski down Brookway, go up Seven Brothers and a gondola, and get back over there if they want to do it again.00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:32.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:28:46.000 --> 00:29:06.000brian norton: So, yeah, I mean, access is pretty strong. In terms of replacing North Peak, yes, that lift is on our planning process. It's probably equivalent to South Peak on any given day, or Lincoln Express, I should say. On any given day, I flip-flop which one's more important. You know, we did the Timbertown expansion, and we thought, oh, these people are over here.00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:03.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:22.000brian norton: maybe we should be focused on this lift, and now we're doing this thing over here, or maybe we should be focused on North Peak, and, um, I'll tell you that the RFID data that we, you know, 3, 4 years ago, we put RFID gates at North Peak, remote up mountain, you can't get to it without passing another gate, and everyone was kind of looking at us, like.00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:29.000brian norton: What are you doing that for? Data collection, 100%. The things we've learned about how people use that terrain have…00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:26.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:40.000brian norton: driven our snowmaking philosophy, our investment philosophy. Uh, it's… it's last winter that Lyft opened on day one and closed on day 151, I think it was, so it was open every day of the season, so…00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:45.000brian norton: Maybe today, if you're asking me, that one gets done before Lincoln Express.00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:48.000Stuart Winchester: And are you thinking a six-pack? One of those nice D-lines?00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:51.000brian norton: Yeah, I'm sure that's what it would be at a minimum, yeah.00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:51.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:56.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, do you like the bubbles, like the one you have at CANC and up at Sunday River?00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:17.000brian norton: The bubbles are awesome for all the reasons they're awesome, but there are some hidden challenges with them as well, particularly when they come into the terminal. They're aerodynamic when the chairs are on the line, but when they come into the terminal, if the wind's blowing the wrong way and the bubbles opening and the wind wants to shut it or vice versa.00:29:58.000 --> 00:29:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:26.000brian norton: Uh, there's a little give and take there. I… we'd probably end up with bubbles, I think, but, um, yeah, there are… it's not all… it's not all easy with them.00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:24.000Stuart Winchester: That's that.00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:34.000Stuart Winchester: It's Boyne style, right? I was surprised, actually, when I got out to Brighton, and the, uh… their new Sixer, their D-Line out there does not have bubbles. I was like, oh, this.00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:28.000brian norton: Yep.00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:42.000brian norton: Or footrests, or footrests, which is the only one that I think doesn't have footrests, and as a snowboarder, I appreciated that when I rode that.00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:52.000Stuart Winchester: Right, right, right. Yeah, well, the Utah guys don't want to bring the bar down anyway so So, you know, I always think of this expansions like this first, Brian, as a skier.00:30:52.000 --> 00:31:10.000Stuart Winchester: Unless as a customer or as someone, you know, doing a business, I'm really curious. Loon has already historically been the busiest skier in New Hampshire and the pub, the skier visits aren't public anymore. But I would imagine that's still the case. It is busy, busy, busy all the time. It is the idea here.00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:18.000Stuart Winchester: Is it to bring in more skiers, or is it to create more variety at a mountain that…00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:28.000Stuart Winchester: I really think has traditionally had the reputation as a good intermediates family mountain. To maybe start to nudge that a little bit more toward a…00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:40.000Stuart Winchester: uh, more of a Killington profile, where there's… where there's more than one kind of skier? Like, the whole family can have fun there. So is it… is it more skiers, or more terrain for the same amount of skiers to spread them out better?00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:46.000brian norton: Um, both, and I'll clarify more skiers, because, um.00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:58.000brian norton: as the ski resort develops, and as the town develops, we inch closer to destination ski resort instead of day ski resort. I think we're still a day ski resort, but we're working our way towards destination.00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:18.000brian norton: Um, and as you become a destination, your skier visits spread equally over the 7-day week, right? We're heavily skewed to weekends right now. We're not talking about more skiers on the weekends. We're already managing tickets and limiting sales to keep guest experience where we want it. I think we can have more visits mid-week, or early season, late season.00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:33.000brian norton: this will certainly help with that, but on your peak Saturday in January, like, no, we don't… we're… we're not having more skiers here. We're… we're happy with where we're at. Um, in terms of terrain, yeah, I mean, you and I talked about it, I think, the last time we were together talking about glade skiing here.00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:40.000brian norton: We need more of it. Variety of terrain, um, is important, and this is a huge step in the right direction.00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:48.000Stuart Winchester: So I think in New England, when you talk about more skiers, more capacity, reflectively, we think parking, but you have this interesting project going on.00:32:48.000 --> 00:33:05.000Stuart Winchester: Where a pulse gondola is set to leave from near the new Timbertown quad that you put in 2023, go over the river, uh, and land, not exactly in the town of Lincoln, but to service some resorts there. Uh, I thought that project was gonna open.00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:15.000Stuart Winchester: This winter, it doesn't look like that's gonna happen. Tell us about that Pulse Gondola, Brian, what you hope to achieve with it, and kind of where you're at with approvals and permits.00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:33.000brian norton: Um, yeah, me too. I was hoping it was gonna open this winter, too. Um, yeah, we've said with that project all along that we're not really in a rush, and we want to do it right. More importantly, we want to get buy-in from all the current stakeholders, and that's where the project, um, lives. It's a really unique thing where.00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:48.000brian norton: you've got three different parties that are involved, two different completely owned land, uh, landowners, plus Loon being the easement and holders on some of that land, and, um, just working with the town currently and trying to.00:33:48.000 --> 00:34:08.000brian norton: none of us have been through this. I can't think of another example where you've got so many different entities trying to get one project approval. I actually have a planning board meeting tonight, and we're on the docket. So if you're if you're not doing anything at 6 o'clock tonight, feel free to join the zoom. Yeah. So we're we're still working on that. We've gotten essentially approval on one side. And now we're working on the loon side.00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:23.000brian norton: our hope is that that project still comes through in the next year. It's unique in the sense that it doesn't need to happen, like, for day one of ski season. It can be built during the ski season, because it's not replacing something, it's a true add to the ski resort, so…00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:22.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:38.000brian norton: the Daubmeyer team that would do the lift is kind of excited that, you know, they have a project that they can work on out of cycle, keep their team busy year-round, have the electricians there when they'd otherwise, you know, not be doing anything, because the crew's still standing steel somewhere else, that kind of thing.00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:39.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Boyne's had a lot of success doing those sorts of lifts at Big Sky, and it's amazing what.00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:59.000Stuart Winchester: Even if it's a low capacity, low use lift, like the one and only gondola or the lift that connects to the montage out there in Big Sky, it really gives the skiers a lot of freedom. And I think it really would make a big difference in being able to connect to the town. So let's talk about a lift.00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:01.000Stuart Winchester: That would not be easy.00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:18.000Stuart Winchester: Let's talk about that. Uh, the four passenger gondola you have, I believe it's the last four passenger Gandhi left in the east. It is a monster. This is a 1738 vertical foot lift, 6970.00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:30.000Stuart Winchester: foot long, uh, and recently Loon filed an application with the Forest Service to replace it, so tell us, Brian, what you want to do with the White Mountain Gondola.00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:32.000brian norton: Yeah, so, um…00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:44.000brian norton: a really cool old lift. You probably know better than me, but one of the oldest detachables in New England. It's one of the highest utilized lifts in Boyne's network.00:35:44.000 --> 00:36:00.000brian norton: around this 10-plus months out of the year, you know, between winter and summer. Uh, two years ago, I got a text message from our lift mechanic showing me the hour meeting that was 8675309. Um, it's nearing… it's nearing 100,000 hours now, so yeah, it's due for replacement.00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:10.000brian norton: Um, we filed some paperwork with the Forest Service to get in the queue. We're still working out the details of that project, that's why we haven't really addressed it publicly.00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:23.000brian norton: Try to figure out how it fits, where it goes. It will be a D-line Omega 10, you know, 10-person cabins. Boeing style, as you like to say, you know, we're gonna do it right. It's a pivotal lift for us.00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:29.000brian norton: the main base area that opens first and closes last, and, um, yeah, we want to make sure we do it right. So, we will.00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:48.000Stuart Winchester: One detail I thought was really cool in the permit, Brian, was, and obviously I'm not holding you to this, the permit is, you know, the application is the application, but this notion of moving the load terminal, it gets set 100 feet or 80 feet up the hill, away from the Octagon Lodge, I imagine that opens all kinds of possibilities for you.00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:52.000Stuart Winchester: Talk about what you have in mind there and how that would change just the whole flow of Loon.00:36:52.000 --> 00:37:02.000brian norton: Yeah, the problem is that the current lift is inside of a building, and the new one, you know, without tearing the building down, is not going to go inside of the same building, so…00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:03.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:21.000brian norton: how do we handle that? And, you know, I'd say there's a couple options on the table. Some of them is, you know, partially modifying that building, putting the lift against it, and or the polar opposite of that is just pushing it into the hillside as far as you can, and, um, you know, using the building for something else, which we have some cool ideas for.00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:36.000brian norton: Um, this lift is gonna need parking. That's a big space constraint that we don't necessarily have. I mean, those cabins aren't small, and you're talking, you know, another Kank 8 size. Probably not that big, but close to Kank 8 size, you know, parking structure to park all the cabins in, and.00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:42.000brian norton: Is parking at the top? Is parking at the bottom? You know, how do we, uh… how does our… if we put it…00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:57.000brian norton: upslope, not in the building, how does our food and beverage team that uses that as their main, you know, mover up the mountain, get food and everything else up, how do they get their food to the Summit Cafe now in the winter? And so, there's a lot of challenges with that, and that's why we haven't, you know.00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:13.000brian norton: really detailed the project, because we're… I mean, just this morning, I was walking out there, driving stakes in the ground, like, trying to visualize, okay, if we did this, how would it work? How would that work? So, yeah, ongoing, um, super exciting project, and I can't wait till we have that nailed down, and we can really start.00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:15.000brian norton: Showing people what we're doing.00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that would be huge, and maybe quiet at the Peanut Gallery, because I know a big storyline.00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:31.000Stuart Winchester: when the cant gate went in was, why'd they do that before the gondola? And I know there's a lot of reasons for that, but… and I love the cant gate, but I'm sure you heard those same narratives. You know.00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:40.000Stuart Winchester: Out with the old, I guess. Quick note, Brian, the little sister, a 1966 Hall double.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:57.000Stuart Winchester: has taken its last ride. I just made this connection prepping for this podcast. That's actually an original lift from Loon's opening, right? So tell us about Little Sister. It was a small lift, a hall lift, but you took it out this summer. Why was it time to retire Little Sister?00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:01.000Stuart Winchester: And what are you doing with the lift, the chairs, the pieces, the parts?00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:07.000brian norton: Yeah, so, um, Old Lyft, um, couple things. One…00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:10.000brian norton: When we installed Seven Brothers.00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:21.000brian norton: the skiers really stopped using that lift, because… sorry, when we upgraded Seven Brothers Triple to the Seven Brothers Quad, which was the old Kank Quad and got rebuilt.00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:21.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:37.000brian norton: the lap time off Seven Brothers was just as quick as Little Sister, but you got more vertical, and we had more uphill PPH. So, um, no one was really using it for skiing. We maintained it for tubing for a while, we got out of the tubing business.00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:56.000brian norton: Um, we'll maybe be back in the tubing business in the future, but not in that location. So, um, at the same time, it needed some maintenance work. Our friends at Cypress, one of the other Boyne properties, um, needed some spare parts to one of their lifts. We had them in the drive here at Little Sister, so…00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:13.000brian norton: Um, plus, in a base area that's crammed for space, when that thing eventually, you know, physically moves away, it'll be additional space, it'll open up skiing possibilities, it'll open up more space for our seasonal programs that are in that base area, or that part of the base area over there. Uh, in terms of what we're doing with the lift.00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:30.000brian norton: Um, towers are still standing right now, the terminals are still standing, we'll hopefully get that down next summer. The chairs were all auctioned off recently, we sold a few to employees, like myself, I bought one, I'll have that hanging on my porch at my house.00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:27.000Stuart Winchester: Nice.00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:44.000brian norton: Um, the rest of… I think we sold… there was 20, or there was 31 chairs… 30 or 31 chairs, and um, we sold some to employees. We're keeping 5 for spare parts, maybe future auction-type stuff. The rest of them…00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:50.000brian norton: were auctioned off to the public, and they're benefiting two incredible local charities, one, the Pemi Valley.00:40:51.000 --> 00:41:07.000brian norton: Uh, Upper Pemi Valley Historical Society, um, who's, you know, I saw some really cool historic stuff, check out their Instagram feed, there's some cool stuff about the Riverwalk Gondola, and then they just put a couple posts. Um, and then, uh, Lincoln Friends Iraq, which, you know, one of our purposes is making sure.00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:15.000brian norton: That we're connected to the community and doing everything we can for the youth of the community, and so that's what we're doing with the money, and we're proud to say that.00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:30.000Stuart Winchester: So don't go looking for Little Sister Lift this year. It is gone. That leaves you with one haul lift, a 1968 East Basin. I didn't see a map for that gondola proposal. Brian, is part of that proposal removing that East Basin haul lift?00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:20.000brian norton: And it's gone.00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:39.000brian norton: I started at East Basin and as long as I'm here, East Basin will, you know, I shouldn't say that. And maybe it'll go away, but it's not going away as part of.00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:34.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:37.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, I love it.00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:55.000Stuart Winchester: Love that. All right, Brian, hey, I really appreciate you joining us today on the New Look Pod. You're my second guest ever, and I really want to make this timely, so the fact that we could talk about this new expansion at Loon is awesome, and I hope I can be up there on opening day.00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:57.000Stuart Winchester: And I hope that's next winter.00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:00.000brian norton: Yeah, and I hope to get out there on Black Ridge with you.00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, good luck at your planning board meeting tonight, Brian. Talk to you.00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:05.000brian norton: All right. Thanks, Stuart.00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:06.000Stuart Winchester: Thanks so much. Bye.00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:06.000brian norton: Bye.00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.000Stuart Winchester: All right, so…00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:17.000Stuart Winchester: That is Brian Norton, President and General Manager of Loon Mountain.00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:25.000Stuart Winchester: Before we move on to the closing segment, I want to tell you about my friends at Profile Search International.00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:31.000Stuart Winchester: A lot of you come to this podcast to hear from the best minds in skiing, guys like Brian Norton.00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:41.000Stuart Winchester: Managing mountains that are making big moves like Loon. But, what if you want to find one of these great leaders for your own mountain team? Brian is pretty happily employed.00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:46.000Stuart Winchester: I'd like to introduce you to the folks at Profile Search International.00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:59.000Stuart Winchester: Profile Search are ski industry talent acquisition experts, and they are the only executive search and recruitment firm in the world that is 100% focused on the ski industry.00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:05.000Stuart Winchester: ProfileSearch has used their intimate understanding of skiing and related industries.00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:14.000Stuart Winchester: and of available candidates worldwide to place hundreds of transformational leaders at the best and most progressive ski areas over the past 30 years.00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:21.000Stuart Winchester: With offices in the US and Canada, they find and negotiate with the right leaders for your team.00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:33.000Stuart Winchester: You can reach out to Profile Search directly at profilesearch.com, or contact them by email or phone, or send me a note, and I will connect you directly with this expert team.00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:40.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, I'm really looking forward to this next segment. As promised, I am going to use this segment.00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:52.000Stuart Winchester: to read reaction to the previous podcast. I'm not at a point where I can do the podcast live, maybe someday, but right now, we are…00:43:52.000 --> 00:44:08.000Stuart Winchester: Read and react the next day. So, uh, the way that you can interact with the podcast is to make a comment on the article that accompanies this podcast on stormskeeting.com. Only paid subscribers can do that.00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:23.000Stuart Winchester: You can upgrade to the paid tier of the storm, which is the very best way to support the product@stormskiing.com. That will get you 100% of the content below the paywall, and it will also allow you to interact with the podcast, but.00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:31.000Stuart Winchester: everyone can listen to the podcast. The podcast has always been for everyone, and my intent is to keep it that way. So…00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:40.000Stuart Winchester: Some reaction to yesterday, and a lot of this is just reacting to… So yesterday, as a reminder, Joe Hessian came on, talked about…00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:43.000Stuart Winchester: The Snow Pass, uh, talked about…00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:51.000Stuart Winchester: Indy Pass and Snow Pass, both claiming Snow King and the confusion around that.00:44:51.000 --> 00:45:00.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and I talked a little bit about, just in general, uh, the Indy Pass and the fact that smugglers not to join. So…00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:14.000Stuart Winchester: Reading the comments from top to bottom. And again, these are all paid subscribers, so thank you very much, and a lot of these folks I have been in dialogue with for years, so they're not necessarily new to me, but perhaps new to the community.00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:17.000Stuart Winchester: Starting with Peter Schlachtes.00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:21.000Stuart Winchester: So, just under an hour, in the short format?00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:27.000Stuart Winchester: I liked it. I had heard the backstory on Hessian and didn't need to hear it again.00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:30.000Stuart Winchester: It focused on the compelling stuff.00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:44.000Stuart Winchester: But remember that your growing audience, I hope, consists over time of more and more people who won't have heard or remember that context and texture and won't necessarily seek it out on an old podcast that features your speaker.00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:59.000Stuart Winchester: By the way, though, you really must make a point of steering people to relevant past podcasts that provide the backstory on guests and mountains you cover in the new format. Mention it, flash it on the screen, put it in a subtext, and leave it there, because people won't know they're interested in learning more until…00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:00.000Stuart Winchester: They are.00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yes, Peter, I appreciate the short comment, and short has never been my…00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:25.000Stuart Winchester: Strength. So expect some experimentation. Uh, expect me to play around with this a little bit. Expect some episodes to be longer than others. I truly will try to get some bite size episodes out there, but I, I find that the podcasts that I listen to that are news focused are usually right around an hour and.00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:34.000Stuart Winchester: And I don't run out of steam with that, as long as what they're talking about is interesting to me. As far as your point about linking to past podcasts, look.00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:38.000Stuart Winchester: One of the reasons that…00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:42.000Stuart Winchester: I had to move to a different podcast format.00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:43.000Stuart Winchester: Was that…00:46:43.000 --> 00:47:03.000Stuart Winchester: the old podcast was becoming too laborious, and part of the reason was I was too concerned with building a big story around it, and making sure that everything I mentioned had some context that a reader could go back to. And what that… and it was great, and a lot of people appreciated that, and again, I'll still do some long-form product…00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:17.000Stuart Winchester: Podcasts and I'm still doing plenty of writing, but it actually gummed things up to the point where I was just not making as many podcasts as I should be. So my goal here with the new short format podcast, keep it light, keep it moving.00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:33.000Stuart Winchester: The trend is toward search, right? So with all the AI tools and everything available, it's pretty easy to find my old podcast. I do have a master list that I linked to from the homepage, uh, and, and.00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:38.000Stuart Winchester: As much as I agree with you, it would be nice, I think that most people…00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:50.000Stuart Winchester: will just Google Joe Hessian Storm Skiing Podcast, and it will pop right up. But, we'll see how it evolves. Next comment from Mimi Ma, another long-time paid subscriber. Shout out to Mimi.00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:57.000Stuart Winchester: Like the format, especially good that I can skim read if needed, and then jump to the sections of interest. Keep up the good work. I want to make that point.00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:09.000Stuart Winchester: there is a transcript for every single episode. You can click on the transcript, and when you're reading it, you click to any section, and it will go to that section of the podcast, if you're on Substack.00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:22.000Stuart Winchester: If you're on YouTube, you won't have that capability, so you can always check out the video version on Substack. Again, if you're listening via audio on Apple or Spotify or something, you also won't have that. So, go to stormskiing.com to get that capability.00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:36.000Stuart Winchester: Comment from Robert. Quote, I think Joe's comment about Eric self-describing himself as the, quote, anti-collaborator, and I'm curious to hear what his, Eric's, answer is.00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:39.000Stuart Winchester: To what is apparently a self-reference.00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:58.000Stuart Winchester: I don't see how you can't be anti collaborative and run a ski area, not to mention operating what is effectively a business to business service business and to Benny and the need to work with all their customers. What's the business justification for not wanting to collaborate outside the sphere he controls?00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:14.000Stuart Winchester: The ski Cooper thing was a bit different in many ways. Here we're talking about two third party systems meant to drive skier visits, and at least at the moment, given the portfolios, I think it is a relatively small percentage of skiers that are most likely choosing between the snow pass and Indy.00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:27.000Stuart Winchester: Most of them, I would assume, are likely NYC Metro-based. Good stuff on the new format. Looking forward to its evolution. Look, Joe was referencing a conversation that he had with Eric. It wasn't…00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:39.000Stuart Winchester: a publicly available conversation, so this is why I'm going to get Eric on the podcast tomorrow, to give his reaction to it. I… you know, Eric, from my point of view.00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:55.000Stuart Winchester: Look at the explosive growth of IndiePass under his tenure, right? He's, he purchased the pass, I believe in 2023, and, and I believe the number of partners, and I can double check this, uh, has more than tripled since Eric took it over, and he's really done a phenomenal job.00:49:56.000 --> 00:50:08.000Stuart Winchester: transforming Black Mountain and 10x-ing revenue at a ski area, which is simply unheard of in the ski business, and making it to Benny, which is a platform that people use.00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:19.000Stuart Winchester: As with any person doing a lot of things, Eric sometimes runs into controversies, but that's what this podcast.00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:34.000Stuart Winchester: Is here for is to give folks an opportunity to air their sides of the stories. Uh, I have a lot of respect for Joe and for Eric, and I think they're both doing really cool things in the ski industry. So, so we'll, we'll see. We'll see what Eric's.00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:51.000Stuart Winchester: answer is to that. From Scott Abraham, another long-time reader, I presume your hair is still standing out from being present at the Hail Mary. Quack, he's a Ducks fan. Alright, Scott, I'm gonna move right past that one. Eric Morris, great new format. You've written great stuff on walkable ski areas. How did you develop those thoughts?00:50:51.000 --> 00:51:00.000Stuart Winchester: Are you aware of strong towns? Are you aware of the Congress of New Urbanism? Eric, thank you. Yes, that is a running theme.00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:03.000Stuart Winchester: We threw out the storm.00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:19.000Stuart Winchester: I'll say this. There's a reason I live in New York City, and it's not because I think it's the greatest place in the world. It's because I value living in a walkable community. I value a pedestrian environment. I like that I don't need to get in my car.00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:26.000Stuart Winchester: Every time I need to go to the grocery store to get a box of pancakes. And New York City offers a really.00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:30.000Stuart Winchester: Great environment for that sort of lifestyle.00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:32.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and when you travel around Europe.00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:45.000Stuart Winchester: those sorts of communities are everywhere, including in the ski towns. And our ski areas, being developed post-World War II, were mostly developed as most of America was at the time, which is around the automobile.00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:47.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:49.000Stuart Winchester: I don't think that…00:51:49.000 --> 00:52:04.000Stuart Winchester: Car-centric mountain towns are necessarily the best way to evolve our towns into the future. So I think there's a rethinking in order. And yes, I am familiar with the schools of new urbanism and read frequently.00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:09.000Stuart Winchester: I'm not claiming these are ideas I'm coming up with mysel

Welcome to the Storm's short-form, news-focused podcast. Don't worry, I will still write newsletters too. To browse a podcast transcript, click the “transcript” button above - click on any block of text and the audio will jump to that point in the conversation. Paid subscribers can leave a comment below - I'll respond to some in the next episode. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism./:The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)00:01:51.000 --> 00:02:02.000Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the Storm! It is September 8th, 2026, and if you are a Storm regular, you are probably wondering what in the heck is going on here.00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:09.000Stuart Winchester: Today, we are launching an all-new format for the Storm Skiing Podcast.00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:22.000Stuart Winchester: It is shorter, it is news-focused, it will be more frequent, and it will publish the same day that I record it in just about every instance.00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:23.000Stuart Winchester: So.00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:28.000Stuart Winchester: It's gonna have a lot of different elements. Uh, takes just…00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:31.000Stuart Winchester: on whatever's happening in the news.00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:34.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, let's scrap that and let's start again.00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, starting from the top.00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:42.000Stuart Winchester: 3.00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:44.000Stuart Winchester: Q.00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:45.000Stuart Winchester: One.00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:59.000Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the Storm! I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. It is September 8th, 2026, and I would like to welcome you all to a brand new version of the Storm Skiing Podcast.00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:02.000Stuart Winchester: So, the long-form podcast…00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:09.000Stuart Winchester: has been the default of the Storm Skiing Podcast since I launched in 2019.00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:12.000Stuart Winchester: Very proud of the Storm Skiing podcast.00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:16.000Stuart Winchester: We're at episode 227.00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:26.000Stuart Winchester: I have interviewed the leaders of nearly every large ski area in America, and the leaders of most of the large ski companies in America.00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:29.000Stuart Winchester: But something started to feel a little bit off.00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:35.000Stuart Winchester: And, you know, I started to think about the kind of podcasts that I consume.00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:44.000Stuart Winchester: And those are mostly, frankly, around Michigan football, uh, which is my other obsession besides ski-ski-ski-ski-ski-ski-ski-ski-s.00:03:44.000 --> 00:04:02.000Stuart Winchester: tend to be much more news-focused. They tend to be much shorter than the Storm Skiing Podcast. They tend to publish the same day that they record them, and they tend to break down current events. For example, I just went to a Michigan football game.00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:21.000Stuart Winchester: on Saturday in Ann Arbor. If you're even remotely a sports fan, you probably saw the controversial ending to that game when Michigan got an extra second added on, and Bryce Underwood, the quarterback, tossed a Hail Mary to win the game when JJ Buchanan, our transfer receiver, came down with the ball.00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:36.000Stuart Winchester: That's never happened in the history of Michigan football, to have a Hail Mary ending that Michigan wins. So, on the way home, it's a 10-hour drive back to New York, my wife and I listened to all the different Michigan podcasts that were breaking down that moment. And I realized that…00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:54.000Stuart Winchester: as much as I like the Storm Skiing Podcast, and as much as a lot of other people like it, I was not really making the kind of podcast that I actually listen to. And that's a problem, because in our current media environment, people have a lot of choice.00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:58.000Stuart Winchester: They have a lot of of.00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:13.000Stuart Winchester: different things they can give their attention to, and it's hard to get and keep their attention. So, I want to say right off, I am not killing the long-form storm skiing podcast. It will not end with episode 227. In fact, I have about 5 or 6 in the can that I've been sitting on.00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:30.000Stuart Winchester: for this news, and I will release those soon, and my thanks to the folks who participated in those podcasts for their everlasting patience as I got this together. So, I'm still gonna make the Storm Skiing Podcast. The frequency will go from about 45 a year at its peak.00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:47.000Stuart Winchester: It's probably about a dozen a year or so, and sometimes there will just be a time when the long form is the more appropriate form for telling the story of a mountain. If I have someone new on, for example, so for example, I've never had.00:05:47.000 --> 00:06:02.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the GM or owner of Sierra at Tahoe in California, an important mountain on the podcast. Never had Wolf Creek on the podcast, never had Mount Baker. If I were to get one of those folks, I would want to do a long form, tell the story of the ski area. But it's not always necessary to.00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:18.000Stuart Winchester: Tell the entire story of the ski area and its history and its culture when you just want to talk about a new lift or you just want to talk about the fact that it joined a new pass. So this shorter podcast will be more frequent.00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:35.000Stuart Winchester: It will have different segments, segments with takes when I just talk about what's going on. It will still have interviews, much shorter interviews. Today we have an interview with an awesome guest, Snow Partner CEO Joe Heschen, one of the smartest guys in skiing.00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:45.000Stuart Winchester: But before, Joe and I went on for two hours. This time, we'll be able to condense it down. And then at the end of each episode, my intent.00:06:45.000 --> 00:07:02.000Stuart Winchester: and hope is to have reader interaction, and this will be a feature available only to paid supporters of the Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast, and you can upgrade to a paid subscription at stormskiing.com anytime. The podcast will be for everyone, as it's always been.00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:18.000Stuart Winchester: But only paid subscribers will be able to interact with the podcast. And the way that they will be able to do that is that they will be able to write a comment on the article that accompanies the newsletter on stormskiing.com.00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:32.000Stuart Winchester: And the next day, I will read some of those comments and react to them as appropriate. And I'll talk a little bit more about that later and why I'm doing it that way. But for now, I want to assure you.00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:48.000Stuart Winchester: This podcast is going to come to you the same way your podcasts always have. Now, there is a video version. You can watch that on YouTube, will be our primary channel, as well as Substack, which is where the newsletter is published. There will always, always, always be an audio version.00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:58.000Stuart Winchester: And it will always come to the same places that you have always gotten the podcast. If that's Apple, if that's Spotify, there's some that I don't even know.00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:11.000Stuart Winchester: how the podcast got on there, or why it's on there. There's an RSS feed that spits this out from Substack. That will not change. The storm will be… when you go looking for it, you're going to find the storm.00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:13.000Stuart Winchester: So.00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:24.000Stuart Winchester: This is something I'm super excited about because I think it will allow me to have a lot more guests a lot more often.00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:35.000Stuart Winchester: there are so many great minds in skiing right now, and I feel like there's a lot of negative sentiment around skiing and the way it's evolving. There's a lot of talk of a duopoly.00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:39.000Stuart Winchester: But from my point of view.00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:54.000Stuart Winchester: there's not a duopoly in a way that is dominating all consumer choice. And the reason I have that point of view is I'm having conversations every single day with smart people.00:08:54.000 --> 00:09:10.000Stuart Winchester: thinking far ahead and doing great things to change skiing in ways that make skiing better, that make skiing access better. People like Joe Hesham, my guest today, people like Eric Mogenson, who runs the Indy Pass, people like John Schaefer, who runs a handful of mountains.00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:28.000Stuart Winchester: in the East, people like Rick Schmitz, who runs three ski areas in the Midwest. Small ski area operators like Tim Meyer at Caber Fay in Michigan, who we'll talk about a little bit later. So, I'm talking to these people all the time, and I'm seeing the independent ski areas are really, for the most part, doing fine. I'm seeing.00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:33.000Stuart Winchester: Huge investment. I'm seeing huge innovation and.00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:43.000Stuart Winchester: Because of the frequency of the podcast, and because of the laborious nature of turning interviews into written content.00:09:43.000 --> 00:10:00.000Stuart Winchester: I don't think that I'm getting that to you in the way that I would like, in, in, in the way that you deserve. I want you to be part of this conversation. I want you to see why I'm so optimistic about skiing right now. I want you to know why I feel that skiing is in its best.00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:05.000Stuart Winchester: place, historically, that it has ever been, at least in America.00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:10.000Stuart Winchester: Now, it certainly has problems, and we will get into those as well.00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:21.000Stuart Winchester: I don't answer to anyone. I don't answer to the operators. I don't have a boss. I answer to my subscribers, and that's it. The only thing I care about is the truth.00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:28.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and my optimism does not come from any desire to have access or anything else. My… my…00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.000Stuart Winchester: My content and my commitment to the truth.00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:50.000Stuart Winchester: comes from wanting to deliver a great journalistic product. Uh, and there's gonna be opinion and analysis. You're not always going to agree with what I say, and that's good! I wanna remind people that. That's good. If you agree with everything I say, I have no value. I can tell you that all of my guests.00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:54.000Stuart Winchester: disagree with things I say, but the reason they keep coming back.00:10:54.000 --> 00:11:03.000Stuart Winchester: And the reason that I hope they will keep coming back is because I'm trying to be fair, I'm trying to work within the bounds of the truth, and I'm not…00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:08.000Stuart Winchester: Jumping to these huge accusatory.00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:25.000Stuart Winchester: narratives that we see so often with the Mega Passes and with the big consolidators, Vale and Altera. So, I want to give a different perspective, I want to give it more frequently. The newsletter, one more point, the newsletter will stay the same. There will always be written content.00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:34.000Stuart Winchester: I am still a writer with a podcast, not a podcaster with a newsletter, though I kind of have to admit at this point that I am.00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:42.000Stuart Winchester: a podcaster, even though that sounds… I don't know, it sounds a little… pretentious, or juvenile, or uh… like I'm…00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:58.000Stuart Winchester: you know, doing this as a side hustle while I drive for Uber, but… but no, this is my full-time job. The Storm is and has been my full-time job for a couple of years. Now, the reason I want to switch to a news-based podcast is for days like today, because today we have.00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:00.000Stuart Winchester: Huge news.00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:04.000Stuart Winchester: One of my favorite ski areas.00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:09.000Stuart Winchester: One of the best ski areas in the eastern United States.00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:14.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, depending on your point of view, maybe one of the best ski areas in the United States.00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:20.000Stuart Winchester: is joining a Malta Mountain Pass for the first time.00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:27.000Stuart Winchester: That is Smuggler's Notch, Vermont. Smuggs is an incredible place.00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:40.000Stuart Winchester: For a lot of reasons. Number one, if you don't live in the East, and you're under the impression that the East is an ice ball, and the vertical drops are short, and the mountains are small.00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:56.000Stuart Winchester: You're wrong. You're just wrong. And there is a snow. There's plenty of big mountains in the east. First of all, there's plenty of good snow pockets in the east. One of the best snow pockets is in northern Vermont, and you have a line of resorts.00:12:56.000 --> 00:13:12.000Stuart Winchester: We call it the spine of the Green Mountains. Starts at Killington Pico, goes up to Sugarbush, which is in Alterra Mountain. Right next door is Mad River Glen, the famous Indy with the single chair. North of that is Bolton Valley, which is on Indy Pass. North of that is Stowe, which is owned by V.00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:23.000Stuart Winchester: On the backside of Stowe is Smuggler's Notch, and then north of that is Jay Peak. Smuggler's Notch joins IndyPass today, and here are the stats.00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:39.000Stuart Winchester: It is a 2610 foot vertical drop that is the fourth tallest in the east. It has one smug says 1060 skiable acres that they claim there's actually more in the woods. If you count the back bowls and some of the secret stashes.00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:54.000Stuart Winchester: Off of the Sterling lift. So that makes it the fourth largest ski area in the east. It is the second snowiest ski area in the east after Jay Peak, which is also an IndyPass partner with 322in of snowfall.00:13:54.000 --> 00:14:10.000Stuart Winchester: On average per winter. Yes, that's a lot. That's those are Vail numbers. Those are Colorado numbers. No, it's not Cottonwoods, but it's deep enough that those ski areas almost always have tree skiing from the beginning.00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:22.000Stuart Winchester: from around Christmas through the end of the season. I've skied Glades at Stowe in April many times. I've done the same at Jay Peak. So, the snow coverage really.00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:38.000Stuart Winchester: comes and it really falls. Mount Mansfield, which is where Stowe is, right next to Smuggs, is the tallest mountain in Vermont, and they have a snow stake there that consistently builds up to around 60 inches or so for the season. So, Smuggs joins Indy Pass.00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:56.000Stuart Winchester: today. It is the… and, and, and, and… No Blackouts on Indie Bass Pass, which goes on sale today to the general public, or actually maybe tomorrow it goes on sale, for… $419.00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:57.000Stuart Winchester: The ND…00:14:57.000 --> 00:15:13.000Stuart Winchester: Plus is 469. So I'll give you a few stats here. So Indy with adding smugs, that is the 43rd Alpine lift serve ski area that Indy has added for the 2026 to 2027.00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:14.000Stuart Winchester: Winter.00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:30.000Stuart Winchester: That gives them a total. Now, my totals are going to be a little different than Indy's because they're counting cross-country ski areas. And I'm leaving those off. And I also count sometimes two ski areas, as one when they're when they're separate entities. But but they share days.00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:45.000Stuart Winchester: So Indy now has 256 ski areas, lift-served alpine downhill ski areas, which get two days each. So they have more than you could possibly use. That includes 148 ski areas in the United States.00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:57.000Stuart Winchester: 32 in Canada, 39 in Europe, and 32 in Japan. You can ski 30% of all ski areas in America on Indy.00:15:57.000 --> 00:16:14.000Stuart Winchester: Now, on the flip side, Indy also had some important losses this winter. They lost, and they're all in the Midwest, and Indy's lost mountains before, and with a roster that big, you're gonna have some turnover. Uh, but the first wave of losses came back.00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:24.000Stuart Winchester: in past release season in March, when the three areas owned by Midwest Family Ski Resorts, some of the best operators in the country, uh, they own Lutzen Mountain in Minnesota.00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:39.000Stuart Winchester: one of the largest ski areas in the Midwest, uh, Granite Peak in Wisconsin, which has 3 high-speed lifts, and Snow River, which is really 2 side-by-side ski areas and a nice snow belt in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. They left for Icon Pass.00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:53.000Stuart Winchester: Now, there's a little bit of a historical precedent there, because those three ski areas had been on the Max Pass, which had been the immediate predecessor, along with the Rocky Mountain Super Pass, to the Icon Pass. Uh, the…00:16:53.000 --> 00:17:10.000Stuart Winchester: Icon Pass, when it debuted in 2018, left off Snow River, Granite Peak, and Lutzen. And I always thought, well, Snow River wasn't a part of Midwest Family at the time, but I always thought that was a mistake. So I'm not surprised to see them go, but those were big drivers of Indy Pass sales.00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:16.000Stuart Winchester: Because those are marquee mountains in the Midwest. They also recently lost…00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:34.000Stuart Winchester: Another three mountains run by another great operator in Wisconsin, Little Switzerland, Crystal Ridge, and Nordic Mountain. Now, these are small ski areas. They're feeder ski areas, but they're important ski areas because Rick is a very smart guy. He's very influential.00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:50.000Stuart Winchester: And he has a lot of influence in the ski business, including being part of the board of directors of the National Skiers Association. Everyone respects him. They also lost Cabar Fay, one of my favorite mountains in Michigan. It was my pseudo-home mountain when I lived in Michigan as a teenager.00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:57.000Stuart Winchester: I have a lot of respect for Tim and Pete Meyer, who run that over there. So, I'll talk a little bit more…00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:10.000Stuart Winchester: about that with Joe, because I think there's going to be some crossover with the snow pass. So, quickly, before we get to our guest, I want to tell you about Profile Search International.00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:15.000Stuart Winchester: A lot of you come to this podcast to hear from the best minds in skiing.00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:20.000Stuart Winchester: But what if you want to find one of these great leaders for your own mountain team?00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:35.000Stuart Winchester: Well, let me introduce you to the folks at Profile Search International. They are the ski industry talent acquisition experts, and are the only executive search and recruitment firm in the world that is 100% focused on the ski industry.00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:48.000Stuart Winchester: They have used their intimate understanding of skiing and related industries and available candidates worldwide to place hundreds of transformational leaders at the best and most progressive ski areas over the past 30 years.00:18:48.000 --> 00:19:04.000Stuart Winchester: With offices in the US and Canada, Profile Search finds and negotiates with the right leaders for your team. You can reach out to them directly at profilesearch.com or contact them by email or phone, or send me a note and I will connect you directly with their expert team.00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:11.000Stuart Winchester: We are joined.00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:13.000Stuart Winchester: As soon as we get a video.00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:33.000Stuart Winchester: We are joined today by the founder and CEO of Snow Partners, which owns and operates the Mountain Creek Outdoor Ski Area and the Big Snow American Dream Indoor Ski Areas in New Jersey. Snow Partners' terrain-based learning program has been used by more than 80 ski resorts worldwide.00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:50.000Stuart Winchester: And the company has rolled out its SnowCloud all-in-one resort management software with at least 15 clients, including Jackson Hole, Wyoming. Last year, the company launched the Snow Triple Play Pass, which was good for 3 days, total across 16 ski areas in eastern North America.00:19:50.000 --> 00:20:01.000Stuart Winchester: Ahead of Winter 2026-27, Triple Play adds 7 additional mountains, for a total of 23, at a price of $179.00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:18.000Stuart Winchester: Snow Partners has also launched the Snow Pass, which is loaded with two days each at 14 ski areas for $339.99. My guest to break all this down for us today is a good friend of the Storm Skiing Podcast, Joe Heschen. Joe, welcome back to the storm. Always good to track you down.00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:18.000Joe Hession: Thanks.00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.000Stuart Winchester: How are you feeling on Snow Pass launch day?00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:36.000Joe Hession: You know, it's launch day for Snow Pass. It's launch day for Mountain Creek Seasons Passes. So winter's in the air. Things are happening. It's really exciting. This is probably my favorite time of year. So thanks for having me on such a special day. Winter's coming.00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.000Stuart Winchester: I'll do it.00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and it's the first day of the new platform for the Storm. So I wanted to get you on first. I'll admit, I want to do a little bit of a flex because I know you're a hard guy to track down and you're doing a lot of cool, interesting things. I want to start with the Snowpass, Joe, because you came on the podcast last year to talk about Snow Triple Play.00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:56.000Stuart Winchester: And your launch, and you were pretty…00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:55.000Joe Hession: Mm-hmm.00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:09.000Stuart Winchester: adamant, you know, this is not a pass. I don't want to do a pass. And, you know, we talked about it a lot, and I probably harassed you about it a little bit, and now we have a pass!00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:01.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:05.000Joe Hession: Mm-hmm.00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:17.000Stuart Winchester: So, so tell us about that journey. How did, how did we get from TriplePlay to SnowPass, and, and why do you have the two different products?00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:10.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:32.000Joe Hession: Yeah. And, and, you know, you might be very responsible for it because you, you pushed it early on of, you know, why, why would this not be a pass? And, you know, originally we were really following the data and the data we were really focused on was 73% of people ski between one and five days.00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:50.000Joe Hession: the price point for that, and we were looking at the data for Mountain Creek with our triple play, and saying, you know, there's really not a lot of triple plays for multi-resort. That's kind of a cool, unique concept. So we were really stuck on the data. Obviously, we heard feedback from folks like yourself, and also your other… all your listeners and subscribers, and…00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:21:50.000 --> 00:22:05.000Joe Hession: And… but then, it was really our past partners. The people that bought the Triple Play were like, if we had this option, we'd be really happy. They hit us that in our post-survey, they said, we really would like this. Um, and then the resorts. We had great partners on the Triple Play program, and…00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:13.000Joe Hession: they came in and said, we would like this as well. So, you know, the model's been done, and we made the leap to do it. So we're really excited about it.00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:28.000Stuart Winchester: You have a great network to launch, and I think especially if you live in New York Metro, and I want to talk about — I do want to talk about Triple Play, but let's focus on Snowpass for a minute. The three key mountains here are Bel Air, Gore, and Whiteface.00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:43.000Stuart Winchester: These mountains, for those of us who are in the area, we know they're state subsidized. They've gotten a half billion dollars in investment. That's a whole different subject. We're going to leave that alone because the result of that for your pass holders is these are awesome ski areas. Bel Air is essentially a brand new ski area.00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:58.000Stuart Winchester: And if you're in New York Metro, you get two days at Mountain Creek, and you get two days at Big Snow, then there's some little ones. You get up in Connecticut, you have Mount Southington. So you have a really nice network of.00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:10.000Stuart Winchester: 14 ski areas, 12 of them are in the east. Talk about that network, Joe, and how deliberate it was that they kind of worked together to create a compelling pass product.00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:27.000Joe Hession: Yeah, that's a great question because that is, you know, we probably look at the world a little differently than people looking at different passes and different programs. And I think you nailed it. Like, you know, with the news last week, you know, sometimes people from Colorado chirp and they, this pass doesn't make sense for me. I'm like, yeah.00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:44.000Joe Hession: Yeah, congratulations. You can read and understand basic logic. So we love our friends in Colorado, we love our friends out west, but this is a pass that's very regional. It makes so much sense if you live in this area and you're planning to have those trips and, and, and you might remember this, but years ago.00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:32.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:23:44.000 --> 00:24:00.000Joe Hession: at the NSA show, which is the National Ski Association. I was on stage with a bunch of different groups, talking about Epic Pass and ICOM Pass, and this is before we had a Pass product. And I was saying, and I was a little critical too.00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:18.000Joe Hession: you know, listen, I think the high-level past products that exist, which just throw out big numbers, like, you know, 40 of these resorts, these resorts, or 300 resorts, like, it's cool, but the reality is, is I'm really focused on how does someone actually use it? So if we go back to the skier.00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:35.000Joe Hession: and the snowboarder, and how do they actually use this pass? And, you know, back in the day, and I love, you know, the industry is much smaller than people, especially your listeners might realize, like, I have a ton of respect for almost everybody. If anyone's in this business, I respect them, because it's a really hard business.00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:36.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:51.000Joe Hession: And so for us, I've always looked at it and said these big pass products that are kind of like overwhelming with the options, like how do people actually use them and where does it drive traffic and traffic to the right places at the right time and stuff like that. So we're very deliberate.00:24:51.000 --> 00:25:02.000Joe Hession: very deliberate in, if you live in New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Long Island, um, upstate New York, parts of Pennsylvania, this is a very compelling pass that not only takes you from the city.00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:18.000Joe Hession: Because for us, what's really critical is that kind of warm handshake from, we're teaching a hundred thousand new people a year to ski at Big Snow. Where do they then go to? And obviously we want them to come to Mountain Creek, but I also want them to go to Whiteface and Bel Air and Gore and Platic Hill.00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:34.000Joe Hession: Um, because things like that, that's kind of how this industry can work together to take people who are new to the sport, or people who are, maybe have never gone. Maybe they always go to Vermont, and we love Vermont, but maybe this is their chance to go up to Whiteface and realize, oh, wow.00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:41.000Joe Hession: That's, you know, you can see JP from there, right? So it's kind of it's people don't realize how far north Whiteface is.00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:49.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so you have a really nice network, and I think it's gonna sell really well. I mean, just even if… even if you just launched.00:25:49.000 --> 00:26:05.000Stuart Winchester: a Bel Air Gore Whiteface pass at that price point, I think it would probably sell really well. Uh, but the reality is you're going up against a very competitive market. So, uh, you look at Epic Pass, not maybe so competitive, you're doing something different, they don't have as many mountains in the market. Indy Pass.00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:20.000Stuart Winchester: I'm not even sure if you know this yet, because the embargo literally lifted when we started this at 10 a.m. eastern. A smuggler's notch today announced they are joining the Indy Pass. So the Indy Pass gives you a really nice network of resorts in your neighborhood.00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:14.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:34.000Stuart Winchester: In New England, it has Waterville Valley, Cannon, Jay Peak, Saddleback, and now Smug, some of the best ski areas in the region. It has ski areas all over New York. That goes on sale to the public.00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:50.000Stuart Winchester: Today or tomorrow, the Indy Pass, they do a fall sale for $419. They have 256 alpine ski areas as of today, including 61 in the western US. They have a big head start, right? They started in 2019, so.00:26:50.000 --> 00:27:04.000Stuart Winchester: you're offering a different product, but it works in the same way, right? SnowPass. Uh, little lower price point, $340 as opposed to $419. What's your pitch for someone considering SnowPass or IndyPass?00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:20.000Joe Hession: Yeah, so, well, well, first let me hit that because it's, it's, what's interesting is, and, and it's important to kind of explain our background and where we come from. I probably see the world differently than almost everyone involved in this past world. I, I kind of look at it as.00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:35.000Joe Hession: you know, the pitch is, if you live in this area and you want to visit the resorts on our pass, it's a no-brainer. Not only that, I don't think we're going to live in a world where there's Epic, Icon, Indy, Snow Pass, Mountain Collective.00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:53.000Joe Hession: I think we should be trying to live in a world where we democratize skiing back to the skiers and snowboarders, and allow them to make choices in their price points where they want to go, vastly different than it is today. I think these programs, um, really exist because lack of good technology.00:27:53.000 --> 00:28:08.000Joe Hession: Like, like, basically, we would have reciprocal programs back years ago with, uh, like, Mound Creek and Killington. And to get that to actually make sense to the guests, where they show up, and it's seamless, and the money's able to be traded the right way, wasn't possible years ago.00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:24.000Joe Hession: So, for us, you know, and I'll get to the question of what the pitch directly to Indy, but I see the world so dramatically different than IndyPass. I see a world where independent ski resorts should be working with each other.00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:43.000Joe Hession: for the betterment of their guests to share people to different locations that people find interesting. A real-life example is Martok in Nova Scotia and Cape Smoky have a reciprocal program that they're actually allowed to have… they have one pass that's able to work at both places and can split the revenue and funding between it.00:28:43.000 --> 00:29:00.000Joe Hession: between them. They have common ownership. But they're both on SnowCloud. So really, you know, our software platform, SnowCloud, which really operates all the things that is involved with Snowpass and Snow TriplePlay, our real pitch long-term, our real pitch of what we're trying to do with Snowpass.00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:17.000Joe Hession: is open up the door to give resort leaders and operators tools where they take out the middleman. And what I mean by the middleman is Wachusett and a resort up in Vermont doesn't need a third party to organize their pass benefits.00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:33.000Joe Hession: They should be doing it directly themselves, using better technology. So, I am calling for a shift, a big shift, in the way that people think of this, of, let's get away from these big, pillar, clunky things that are these big, like.00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:46.000Joe Hession: big, like, kind of ego plays of passes, and let's take skiing back to the skiers and snowboarders, and let them have direct relationships with the resorts they love, and give these operators great tools to allow that to happen.00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:50.000Joe Hession: Um, so that that's our long term pitch. Yeah.00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:56.000Stuart Winchester: So let me jump in there. I just want to ask now, I want to follow up on that. So are you saying this snow pass, your goal is to…00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:01.000Stuart Winchester: make it extinct at some point? It's a building block to the next level, is that what you're saying?00:29:58.000 --> 00:29:59.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:01.000Joe Hession: You…00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:17.000Joe Hession: Yeah, what's interesting is Snowpass, we have no upside in Snowpass. So we've been very open and clear about this. And I just want to make sure the goal of Snowpass is secure. We share all of our books openly with all of our resort partners. They can see every transaction, every dollar flow.00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:33.000Joe Hession: There's overhead in some of the expenses. They get a clear, like, this is the piece that we do that. We originally said it was estimated at 5%. If it ends up becoming 3%, we'll distribute the rest of that to the resorts. We have no profit margin built into our plan for Snowpass.00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:43.000Joe Hession: Snowpass to us is the first step in trying to prove the theory of could we remove the middleman from the equation?00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:58.000Joe Hession: And we applaud the idea that if you're on Snowpass, and let's say that Whiteface wants to now work with Platykill directly, we would celebrate that and see that as a huge win.00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:14.000Joe Hession: Because we want resorts to collaborate. If people are real fans of skiing and snowboarding, and they've been buying passes for years, and part of it, they know that the beauty of the ski industry is when the ski industry, skiers, snowboarders, the people that operate these resorts, work together.00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:26.000Joe Hession: they create beautiful things. So we need to give them tools to work together, and also the ability to work together, because some companies restrict people from being able to work with each other, which goes against the spirit of the whole ski industry in the first place.00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:32.000Stuart Winchester: So if you were… So let's think of… Let's do a thought experiment here. So let's take some…00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:32.000Joe Hession: Okay.00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:53.000Stuart Winchester: some resorts that share your operating software, right? So you have Mountain Creek, so you can do whatever you want with it, and you have big snow. I know that, for example, Greek Peak up in upstate New York uses, it's up near Cornell, sort of central New York for folks who aren't familiar. It would be a great feeder from Mountain Creek because it has.00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:40.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:45.000Joe Hession: Mm-hmm.00:31:53.000 --> 00:32:09.000Stuart Winchester: a resort feel, and it's a big mountain, and it has a nice hotel across the street with a water park and everything. So you have, uh, Greek Beak, and then you signed Jackson Hole, right? So would an example be that if you were a…00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:05.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mountain Creek Passholder, you could somehow…00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mountain Creek could sign a deal with Greek Peak for shorter-term visits and Jackson Hole for longer-term. Is that the goal, and how would that be different from a pass we have now?00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:40.000Joe Hession: Yeah, so, yeah, well, because it could be priced exactly to the price, it would make sense to the consumer. Because right now, and remember, when people buy an IndiePass or a pass like that, there's an idea that all these resorts, like, I'm a big fan of IndiePass.00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:57.000Joe Hession: Pareto charts, the 80/20 rule. I will guess, not knowing anything about their business, that 80% of the revenue is made up of 20% of the resorts and the visits. I will almost guarantee it because that's how statistics works. So when you have huge numbers, it starts to cloud the efficiency of it, right?00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:17.000Joe Hession: So to me, I look at and say, yeah, so a program where it's like if Mountain Creek went to Greek Peak and said, we want to have a reciprocal program where if someone uses this, it seamlessly just works at the lift. So imagine someone took their Mountain Creek pass, went and rode the lift at Greek Peak and boom, the transaction happened. The guests never even knew it happened.00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:32.000Joe Hession: the business relationship worked, and then we shared data to basically say, oh, this is a Mountain Creek and Greek Peak guest. Now you guys can market directly to them and hopefully get them to come for a longer stay next time. That's where I… that's where I would love to have it, and Greek Peak's a great example.00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:40.000Joe Hession: We're great partners with them. We love that resort. They've been great early adopters of SnowCloud. We're not allowed to have a reciprocal program with them at Mountain Creek or Big.00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:58.000Joe Hession: They're, they're contractly obligated not to work with anyone other than who they work with, which is, which to me is just wild. And I think most people don't realize that that's how it works. And, you know, the last thing we need is, is the middleman kind of inserting themselves into controlling how people operate. It's just.00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:10.000Joe Hession: So… so I would love… I see a future like that. Currently, unfortunately, with a place like Repeat, we're not allowed to work with them. We're… we're… and… and I mean not on Snowpass. We can't have a reciprocal…00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:16.000Joe Hession: We can't give someone a discount if they're a Mountain Creek holder to go to Greek Peak. It's.00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and great.00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.000Joe Hession: Less rules. We need less rules.00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:29.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Greek Peak has worked with IndiePass since 2019. They've been an original partner over there. I want to get to that in a second. You know, I…00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:20.000Joe Hession: Okay.00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:44.000Stuart Winchester: I don't know if I see a post-pass world, because I like a menu, I like the big passes. However, what I think you're describing could solve is the free visit problem.00:34:44.000 --> 00:35:02.000Stuart Winchester: because I know Indian Ski Cooper, for example, had a dust-up a few years ago because Ski Cooper was essentially… India accused him of essentially creating a national pass, and that was probably my fault because I wrote an article that said, hey, look at this secret national pass for 300 bucks in Colorado. Nonetheless, it's a lot of…00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:56.000Joe Hession: Mm-hmm.00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:19.000Stuart Winchester: Free visits and you have mountains like Bogus Basin in, in Idaho that are still giving away a lot of free visits. Now, Bogus is a great business and, and it's doing well and they have a surplus and, and they've evolved great in the past decade or so. Uh, but, but it seems like that could really solve that.00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:13.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:26.000Stuart Winchester: free visits problem, where there is some revenue sharing. Is that part of what you're trying to solve here?00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:41.000Joe Hession: 100%. And you see the big players do it, right? Like a big thing about us too is I'm not against anything. I think Indie is fantastic. And it's very important to point this out. I think that is, but I also think Epic and Icon are great.00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:35.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:42.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:57.000Joe Hession: Like, I'll put it this way, operating a small resort here in New Jersey, Mountain Creek, or Big Snow, there are things that Vail does so much better than us that we wish we had the resources they have. Now, with that said, we do things way better than Vail does, and they wish they had the resources.00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:14.000Joe Hession: Or the ability to do what we can do, right? And, you know, there's an old commercial years ago that there was, like, a big boardroom, and the boardroom, they're like, I wonder what the little guys are doing. And then all of a sudden, it showed the people in, like, the startup, and they're like, I wonder what the big guys are doing. So, we're all in the same business, and we're.00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:32.000Joe Hession: some of the things they've done to try to cure their own things. They own most of their resorts on their program, so they're gonna do things the way that benefits them, because they own all those resorts together. And they've tried to solve these problems in similar ways, and I think learning from them on that stuff, same thing with Icon is doing similar stuff to that.00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:35.000Joe Hession: Um, but yeah, I think…00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:44.000Joe Hession: that's exactly what we're trying to solve. We're trying to solve… we want resorts to have relationships that make sense to the consumer. Like, for example.00:36:44.000 --> 00:37:00.000Joe Hession: Who is going to go, and I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll focus on someone else for a minute. Who's gonna, who's gonna go to 40 resorts in a year on a certain pass? Nobody. Nobody. Skiers are smarter than that. No one's doing that. What they're doing, if you buy an Epic or Icon.00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:08.000Joe Hession: in the real world, the conversation goes, um, oh, I live in New York? Great. What pass are my friends buying?00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:24.000Joe Hession: Because where are they going to go this year? Where do we want to take our family trip? Oh, and it just happened. My wife and I, our family, we have a place in Snowmass. So every year, we have some friends who are like, I want to come out to Snowmass. Well, they buy an IconPass. Their decision is made based on, oh.00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:43.000Joe Hession: your condo's available, I can go, I'm gonna lock in an Icon Pass. That's how consumers actually work. So, to me, it's like, I agree with you, I love the big passes, I don't think they should go away. I think there's a great place for India, I think there's a great place for Icon, I think there's a great place for Epic Pass. There might be a great place for Snowpass.00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:59.000Joe Hession: But I also get really excited about other options. And I feel like we're at this disruptive time where we're seeing the results of these passes and kind of the rubs that are rubbing people the wrong way. And I think it might be time with technology that we can kind of.00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:06.000Joe Hession: take it to the next level. Like, you know, we're talking about the evolution of, you know, major.00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:21.000Joe Hession: uh, success has been done, and there's been some learnings, right? Like… like, the pictures of the long lines and stuff, uh, that we see every holiday or powder day, like, is a result of the PASS program. It's a result of this, it's an output of that, and I think there's ways we can maybe.00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:37.000Joe Hession: Make it better where the skier gets a better choice, a better experience, and then the resorts get to share in different ways. So really, at the end of the day, I think it's a technology driven way to better collaborate for the betterment of the ski experience to democratize.00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:42.000Joe Hession: It's kind of the price and take out the middleman is really, is really my pitch.00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:44.000Stuart Winchester: So, Joy, I appreciate…00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:45.000Joe Hession: I'd like to remove myself from the equation eventually.00:38:44.000 --> 00:39:01.000Stuart Winchester: You know, the problem with you removing yourself from the equation, Joe, is that everyone I talk to really likes working with Snow Partners, your team. They like the train-based learning, they like your operating software.00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:55.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:16.000Stuart Winchester: And I appreciate that spirit of Bonhomie, and you're right, the ski industry is small, and it was smaller than I would have imagined, and it was more welcoming than I would have imagined. I'm not sure if you read the lawsuit.00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:25.000Stuart Winchester: The most recent one filed against Veil Altera, Boyne Powder, the National Skier Association and and RRC. And it's built.00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:21.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:34.000Stuart Winchester: the case for the lawsuit is built on accusations of collusion. Using a lot of.00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:33.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:50.000Stuart Winchester: kind of fluffy evidence of people getting together at NSAA shows and basically sharing data and sharing best practices. I think all industries do this. Now, I'm going somewhere with this.00:39:50.000 --> 00:40:07.000Stuart Winchester: I appreciate that, and I think IndyPass, a lot of people love working with them. However, maybe a little more conflict would be good for the ski industry, because one thing I've seen as I've been reading old newspaper clippings is ski operators used to talk a lot more junk to each other, like, oh, Summit County, Colorado does.00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:17.000Stuart Winchester: more skier visits to the whole state of Utah. Obviously, those days are over, but there used to be a little more smack talk. So let me get into a little controversy here, and you can address this as you want.00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:13.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:17.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:34.000Stuart Winchester: As you said, Indy Pass does not share. You have been willing to share and and the snow triple or snow pass shares two mountains, Bromance in Quebec and Whiteface with Mountain Collective and three.00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:45.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Butternut, Jiminy Peak, and Cranmore with the Icon today. You and Indy are both claiming Snow King, you're both telling me it's locked in, uh, and…00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:55.000Stuart Winchester: Indy's telling me it's only gonna be on Indy, so… there's a little conflict for ya. Uh, how are you approaching that, and what do you think about the scenario?00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:52.000Joe Hession: Yeah, yeah.00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:00.000Joe Hession: Yeah, so we're talking about Snow King specifically?00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yes, Snow King specifically.00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:10.000Joe Hession: Yeah, so specifically Snow King, we have a signed agreement with Snow King. We're very excited to work with Snow King.00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:23.000Joe Hession: Uh, Snow King would love to have visits, uh, come from us, and they are on our website, and we launched with Snow King. Um, that's where we're at. Um, you know, as far as what's going on with them in Indy.00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:39.000Joe Hession: Um, I'll kind of let them speak to that to themselves, but from what I understand, which I'll take some liberties and say what I think is going on, is there is a clause in an IndyPass that if someone leaves the IndyPass program.00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:55.000Joe Hession: They have to not work with anyone for another year. And it's kind of buried in the fine details. So I think what happened is I think they were off that pass, planned to be off that pass, maybe wasn't familiar with that clause, and then signed an agreement with us.00:41:55.000 --> 00:42:10.000Joe Hession: So for me, so the big question is, hey, so here's the choices as we sit today. We have a signed agreement. We've told Snow King, if this is going to hurt you, we never want to hurt you. So we are 100% willing to do whatever that takes.00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.000Joe Hession: to do it.00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:17.000Joe Hession: But, you know, we're not gonna just, like, bow down, because at the end of the day.00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:31.000Joe Hession: It's also on Indy, and maybe they… maybe they signed an agreement that wasn't… that was not the right thing to do. We have a signed agreement. They're on our paths, right? Um, at the end of the day, there's one person who can make a big choice here.00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:27.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:37.000Joe Hession: Is Indy gonna sue Snow King because of this clause in the piece?00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:54.000Joe Hession: I read in the Boston Globe that Eric Mogensen is going to, like, change and save skiing. Is he going to sue a small ski resort? Like, and I know that's blunt, but I would put the ball right back in his court. I would love to, you know, if he sues Snow King.00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:45.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:54.000 --> 00:43:12.000Joe Hession: That would be an insane thing. And I think he should go out to everyone and say, you know what, we're not going to litigate. You know, I know he hasn't been operating a ski resort long, and I have a ton of respect because of the fact that the fact that he's a GM of a ski resort, the fact that he's operating a ski resort, there's not a single person. And I respect him.00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:27.000Joe Hession: I really do. I really do. There's just one piece that we don't see eye to eye on. And it's… he's told me he's the anti-collaborator, and I am the ultimate collaborator. So when you get us in the ring together, it's one is super collaboration and one isn't. And so to me.00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:39.000Joe Hession: I think, you know, the more he operates a ski resort, he's gonna realize that litigation is one of the hardest things we have to deal with in the ski business. We have realities of things that happen at ski resorts that involve litigation.00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:49.000Joe Hession: suing each other is just a waste of time. Like, what are we doing? Like, we should be, like, we need… we should be talking about skiing and snowboarding, and we should be thinking.00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:49.000 --> 00:44:09.000Joe Hession: how many visits can Indy give Snow King? I would love for them to get a ton of visits. How many visits can Snow Pass give Snow King? Let's get Snow King visits. Let's give people options. And just because of, like, some, uh, you know, red tape in a contract, we're then gonna threaten and clause, like.00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:53.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:28.000Joe Hession: So that's… so here's… so I gave you probably more than I should have, but… and I'm sure Hugh is no longer looking at me, so he… but he didn't give me the hook, so I'm still talking, right, Hugh? We're good? So, I'm sure… you know, but you'll definitely… you wanted to have, you know, for this inaugural session, you wanted to have some stories. This is a story.00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:39.000Joe Hession: The story is, the reality is, the truth is, that they were under contract, Indy, from what I understand, which they've told me, they wrote they are no longer to work, they gave them the right.00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:53.000Joe Hession: I'm out. This is the time you're supposed to be out. They were unaware of this one clause, which we were also unaware of. We signed, we moved forward, we announced. After announcement, it was, no, you can't do that. So, really, right now, I think Snow King would gladly take visits from both.00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:56.000Joe Hession: We would gladly take visits from both.00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:02.000Joe Hession: Ball's in Mogensen's court, we'll see what he does. I guess the best way to approach this is publicly. So, here.00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:00.000Stuart Winchester: And he…00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:16.000Stuart Winchester: I agree, and Eric is scheduled to be on this podcast on Thursday, so he will have his chance to respond. And you know what, Joe, you're welcome back anytime to respond. But before you go out the door, I do want… I did promise to keep these short, and I know for you and I.00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:07.000Joe Hession: Perfect!00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:12.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:16.000Joe Hession: Yep.00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:31.000Stuart Winchester: Both, that's a challenge. I do want to call out some of these awesome new triple play partners, uh, Jiminy Peak and Cramore, especially. I have a ton of respect for the Fairbanks and, and, uh, what, and what they do. Uh, Bromont is, is an excellent.00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:28.000Joe Hession: Yeah.00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:51.000Stuart Winchester: edition, and Hallamont. Actually, Hallamont is on Snow Pass as well, which is a terrific skier. I never realized until I went there this year. It's just because it's private on the weekends and in public during the week. What do you have to do to convince some of these folks, especially Jiminy Cranmore Bromont, to jump over to Snow Pass? Do you think there's a path there?00:45:52.000 --> 00:46:10.000Joe Hession: Yeah, you know, I do. I think it's kind of proving it out over time, but also making, you know, going back to what I said earlier, maybe the right product for them is a relationship with different resorts, right? Maybe it's a whole new version of what happens, but I think we're very lucky to have them on the program.00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:25.000Joe Hession: Both operators are fantastic. Brian and Tyler Fairbank, we go back really far. Like, they were early adopters of us with snow operating and train-based learning. Brian Fairbank, if people don't know, is one of the godfathers of snowmaking in the industry.00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:40.000Joe Hession: He's still at it. He's in his 80s. He's out there making snow. I mean, he's an absolute legend. So anytime we get to work with him and his resort partners, we're really happy. Tyler, we've obviously known for well over a decade and a half as well.00:46:40.000 --> 00:47:00.000Joe Hession: great resorts, we've loved visiting them, and I think they're great operators, so I think people are going to love discovering them. And that's, you know, one thing I'll give a lot of credit to Indy for, which has opened our eyes, is the fact that there's so many passes on the program, there's the fact that there's all these different options. People learn new places they've never learned before, right? And I think Epic and I kind of have done the same.00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:15.000Joe Hession: You know, I never thought of going to Crested Butte, but because it's on the Epic Pass, I'm going to go to Crested Butte, or I never thought of going to this resort, but because of it. And I think that's been a huge success. And it's great to hear you say, like, Hollymont, like, oh, I didn't know that much about the.00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:29.000Joe Hession: I think that's the spirit. The spirit is, how do you take skiers from different regions and inspire them to want to go to somewhere else and make that transaction seamless and easy for the operators to navigate, is really our goal.00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:49.000Stuart Winchester: It's such a rich world, and I love how you're helping folks explore it. Leave us with this, Joe. Where can we buy Snowpass? And I believe you said you're selling a limited number. You probably won't tell me that number, but how soon should folks go to where you're going to tell us to go before they're going to lose this special price of, I believe, 340 for Snowpass and 179?00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.000Stuart Winchester: For the triple play.00:47:52.000 --> 00:48:05.000Joe Hession: Correct. So, so 4pm today, mysnowpass.com, uh, it's gonna be a limited release. Uh, if you know the Mound Creek world, and you know how we do it, it's actually Mound Creek's on the clock right now.00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:22.000Joe Hession: Um, we've been selling for 31 minutes, so I'm gonna get an update when we get off the call here, but at 4 o'clock, we will have our watch party with our group in the kind of war room. We're watching the transactions live. We have a number that we have promised ourselves we will not exceed, and it'll shut itself down at that number.00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:09.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:40.000Joe Hession: Um, so 4PM today will be, uh… will be the birth of a new product in the industry, which hopefully will inspire other new products down the road, and… and hopefully start to change the relationship between resorts and… and the skiers, because that's what it's about. It's about getting skiers the best price for the best mountains, new… doing new things, and working together.00:48:40.000 --> 00:49:00.000Joe Hession: And we have a beautiful industry of resorts, but we have great customers. People who are skiers and snowboarders are so passionate. Like, I read everything they post on your stuff. You know, the comments have been just amazing. And, you know, we're looking forward to, over time, I want to make that person in Colorado that keeps saying, this pass stinks, has nothing to do for me.00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:51.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:09.000Joe Hession: I want to eventually win them over by giving them a product that does make sense for them or allowing resorts there to find a product that works for them. So it's really exciting day.00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:17.000Stuart Winchester: Colorado bro is very proud of Colorado. Uh, last year, Joe, you sold Snow Triple Play, I believe, until Christmas Eve. You have a similar schedule in mind for these two passes this year?00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:11.000Joe Hession: Yes.00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:32.000Joe Hession: Yeah, exactly the same schedule. So they'll be… the best price will be the launches. So today will be the lowest possible price, it'll scale up in another drop, and then it'll be on sale for a little bit at its full retail price, and then it'll turn off at that time. Exactly.00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:20.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:51.000Stuart Winchester: Joe, so good to run you down. Good luck with the launch. I can't wait to see how it goes, and how this thing grows, and frankly, how this little controversy between Snowpass and Indypass resolves itself, because I'm sure that you will find a way through it. So, thank you so much for being my first guest on the new platform. I really appreciate it.00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:35.000Joe Hession: Yes.00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:51.000Joe Hession: Okay.00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:54.000Stuart Winchester: You're welcome on anytime. We'll talk to you really soon.00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:56.000Joe Hession: Great. Thanks for having me.00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:57.000Stuart Winchester: All right, take care, Joe. Bye now.00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:00.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, so…00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, what do you…00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:23.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so that was Joe Heschen, the CEO of Snow Partners and the founder. Quick update from another partner before I wrap up the show today. If you run a ski area or outdoor brand, I want to tell you about my friends at Bonfire Collective.00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:35.000Stuart Winchester: They are a fractional marketing team that collaborates with ski areas and outdoor brands, and they will give your marketing a fresh perspective and better storytelling to supercharge your rebranding or advertising.00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:41.000Stuart Winchester: Bonfire can help you rethink your approach in ways that can turbocharge your business.00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:49.000Stuart Winchester: For example, Bonfire took on the marketing at one New Hampshire ski area and doubled revenue in just three years.00:50:49.000 --> 00:51:04.000Stuart Winchester: When the storm was ready to invest in its first ever digital marketing campaign last year, I worked with Bonfire to make it happen. I could not be happier with the results, and I think you will love working with them as well. To get started, you'll want to talk to Eric.00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:21.000Stuart Winchester: over at Bonfire Collective. He was a co-founder of Bluebird Backcountry Colorado, the first human-powered ski area, so he knows the ski business. You can actually listen to his podcast episode on the Storm Skiing Podcast, long form. Visit bonfirecollective.com.00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:25.000Stuart Winchester: Or I will be happy to make that connection for you.00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:28.000Stuart Winchester: All right, how great was Joe?00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:45.000Stuart Winchester: This is why I love the new pod, because I can have guys like that on all the time. I have dozens of relationships like that throughout the ski industry. Anytime you've listened to a podcast and you've heard someone on there and you enjoyed the conversation.00:51:45.000 --> 00:52:01.000Stuart Winchester: Whether it was Carl Kapczynski, who runs California Mountain Resorts, or… and owns Mountain High, and Bear Valley, and China Peak, and Dodge Ridge out in California. Or if it was…00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:15.000Stuart Winchester: Dustin, who… the president at Copper Mountain, uh, or it was Rob Katz, you know, the Vale CEO. I'm interacting with these people, or… or the folks who represent them, all the time.00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:31.000Stuart Winchester: I talk to Carl Kabasinski all the time, but I haven't had him on the podcast in four years. He's already agreed to come on the new shorter form to talk about all the things going on in his mountains. And that's what's great about it. And, you know, one of the concerns that I heard from people when I announced a shorter form pod was.00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:47.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, well, I really like when you covered small mountains. Well, this will allow me to do that much more, because I don't have to commit an entire hour and a half long episode to it, and it doesn't have to be the whole history of the area. I can just, for example, ask.00:52:47.000 --> 00:53:02.000Stuart Winchester: Rick Schmitz from Little Switzerland in Wisconsin to come onto the show and talk about the new quad chairlift that he's putting up or two new quads put

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast still has a podcast. Get new episodes the moment they're live by subscribing to the email newsletter:WhoJohn Kelly, CEO of Taos Ski Valley, New MexicoRecorded onNovember 13, 2025About Taos Ski ValleyClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Louis Bacon (since December 2013)Located in: Taos Ski Valley, New MexicoYear founded: 1955Pass affiliations:* Ikon Pass – 7 days, no blackouts* Ikon Base Pass – 5 days, holiday blackouts* Ikon Session Pass – 1-4 days, holiday blackouts* Mountain Collective – 2 days, no blackouts* Ski New Mexico True Pass – 2 days, holiday blackoutsBase elevation: 9,350 feetSummit elevation: 12,450 feet lift-served, 12,481 hike-toVertical drop: 3,100 feet lift-served, 3,131 hike-to.Skiable acres: 1,294 (some hike-to)Average annual snowfall: 300 inches claimed on website; calculated 36-year average using data sourced from Taos' 2010 master development plan, Ski New Mexico tallies, and media reports is 233 inches. The 10-year average falls to 166 inches. Here's the year-by-year breakdown:Trail count: 110 (24% beginner, 25% intermediate, 51% expert)Lift count: 13 (1 pulse gondola, 2 high-speed quads, 2 fixed-grip quads, 4 triples, 1 double, 3 carpets)Why I interviewed himLet's start with a superficially troubling number: Taos' long, steady decline in average annual skier visits:That doesn't look so good, especially when laid alongside the long-term increase in national skier visits:Taos not only declined in the context of national skier visits, but also among its peers. In winter 1983-84, Taos drew more skiers (241,000) than Telluride (132,460), Big Sky (136,000), Jackson Hole (177,000), Whitefish (I'm lacking an estimate for that winter, but the ski area then known as “Big Mountain” logged 209,000 skiers in 1980-81 and 170,581 in 1985-86). Taos (dark blue line below), continued to out-duel this group through about the mid-90s before falling off a cliff:So what happened? 1995 Taos, a freeride mecca before freeride was cool, should have been perfectly suited to flourish in a cultural moment when skiers began demanding more interesting terrain than the groomed superhighways that had become the industry's default setting. Sure, Taos was remote and a bit harder to access than, say, Keystone or Park City, but so were Jackson and Whitefish and Big Sky and Telluride. A partial explanation: Taos stopped modernizing. After replacing the Lift 2 double with a fixed-grip quad in 1994, Taos didn't install another new chairlift for 19 years. The first detachable didn't arrive until 2018. The resort banned snowboards until 2008. Meanwhile, Big Sky laced a tram to the summit of Lone Peak in 1995 and started pushing detachable quads up the mountain; the first high-speed quads arrived at Telluride in 1986 and Whitefish in 1989.It's not a perfect narrative – while Jackson Hole rolled out its short Sublette detach in the mid-90s, the mountain didn't install an upper-mountain high-speed chairlift until Casper in 2012. Skier visits went up and up and up all that time, probably due in large part to aggressive improvements at the Jackson Hole airport.Maybe, though, it's as simple as this: banger snow years descended upon Taos – and New Mexico in general – from the late ‘80s through mid-‘90s. It's little surprise that attendance ups-and-downs largely mirror snowfall patterns:But, as the corresponding trendlines show, Taos' skier visits have not declined at the same rate as the mountain's average annual snowfall. And while Jackson's long-term average snowfall has remained relatively constant, attendance has crept steadily upward. Attendance spiked at both mountains when the 2018-19 season brought both plentiful snow and the introduction of the Ikon Pass:Unfortunately, Taos stopped reporting skier visits after the Covid-shortened 2019-20 season, so we have less concrete insight into whether the mountain's recent investments in a reconfigured beginner area and a second detachable on the backside have insulated it from two historically poor snow years. This is why it's nice to have basic visitation data, and why I'm pushing the ski industry to again publicize annual attendance for ski areas occupying public lands (since going live with a chart of 2,406 years of skier visit data for 97 ski areas with 10 or more years of attendance available, I'm up to 2,822 years across 108 ski areas, and I have a total of 3,802 years of data across 184 active U.S. ski areas for which I could find at least one year of attendance).We do know this: Taos doesn't want to return to the world of 300,000-plus skier visits. Somewhere between 250,000 and 275,000 is the “right number for the experience we want Taos to have,” Kelly tells us on the pod. Meaning: fewer skiers spread via a modern lift network is a better business than 364,000 skiers funneling onto double chairs. This flips the busiest-equals-best narrative that made skier-visit counts a 20th-century bragging point. I've heard the same logic articulated by the leaders of Killington, Waterville Valley, and other ski areas that have created a better business even with fewer skiers on their mountains. Jackson Hole, too, halted its relentless upward surge – that 2020-21 dip was deliberate, as the mountain exited Ikon Base and implemented a reservation system.This approach makes sense to me. With U.S. skier visits surging (until this year) and an Ikon or Epic pass in every pocket, no one wants to brag about being busy anymore. Space is the new volume. Social media can still transform one bad liftline into an eternal meme, but at least most skiers on the ground will have a better day most of the time than they probably would have 30 years ago.What doesn't make sense to me is why, in a less-is-more era, ski area operators have suddenly decided that skier visits should be guarded like Fort Knox. If fewer skiers is a good thing and a stated goal, why hide the numbers? The resorts ought to just say “Hey we've deliberately reduced our annual skier count from 300,000 to 250,000 [or whatever] to create a better mountain for you.” Instead, this secrecy around volume just looks cagey - if national skier visit numbers are up, then why should skiers just believe ski areas when they say “trust us, it's better now,” and offer no data to support it? Perception is reality, and today's skiing zeitgeist, as channeled by social media, tells us that American skiers perceive busier mountains today than they did a decade ago.But I'm getting off track. Since Louis Bacon bought Taos in 2013, he's funded an almost-complete renovation of what had become America's most decrepit destination ski resort. I don't think any mountain operating on U.S. Forest Service lands has more completely remade itself in the past decade (rapidly changing Big Sky, Deer Valley, and Powder Mountain operate on private property). Glimmering new but reset to 1970s volume, Taos is beautifully positioned to tap a skiing public that's burned-out on Colorado and Utah crowds but accustomed to modern lifts and snowmaking.What we talked aboutTaos as a family ski mountain; last winter's Chair 7 upgrade and custom terminals; owner Louis Bacon's mission to “improve everything without changing a thing”; why Taos changed from Skytrac to parent company Leitner-Poma for its newer lifts; Taos' great base-area reorganization; the story behind the Free Tacos run; a green run from the top of every lift other than the fierce Kachina triple; Taos' massive evolution since 2015; whether the mountain is committed to long-term independence; the founding Blake family's legacy and presence at Taos today; executing rapid development on Forest Service land; [VIDEO BONUS: Cat photobombing]; running Taos with the context of having worked at also-independent Telluride; becoming a skier growing up in Nashville, Tennessee; Telluride's evolution from semi-affordable to gigantic housing puzzle; employee housing at Taos; the logic behind the proposed base-to-base gondola and navigating local opposition; thoughts on the evolution of lifts 2 and 8; preserving parts of the hike-to ski experience; Taos' evolution after the Kachina Peak lift; lift 7A; the Minnesotas glades from the masterplan; avalanche mitigation; old-school boot-packing; parking lot evolutions; an ideal annual skier visit number and why that number is below historic highs; and getting to Taos.What I got wrong* When we discuss the wood-paneled terminals on Taos' new Lift 7, I ask if they're thematically related to the “wood RFID gates.” This is a reference to an earlier conversation that I cut, about Taos finally installing RFID for the 2025-26 ski season (the gates carry a wood theme). * I said that the trees skier's left of the Pioneer chair were not a named run, but they in fact are, and “Free Tacos” has a pretty awesome story behind it.* I accidentally asked Kelly to, “lay out the housing landscape for Telluride” but meant to say “Taos.” I didn't catch this in real time, but Kelly – who spent several years at Telluride before moving to Taos in 2015 – caught it and course-corrected.Questions I wished I'd askedTaos' 2010 USFS masterplan proposed a 7,045-foot-long, 2,363-vertical-foot detach quad that would have run parallel to Lift 1 to the top of Lift 2:We did, however, discuss the proposed 545-vertical-foot, 991-foot-long Ridge Lift off of Lift 8, and why Taos nixed that machine from its latest MDP:Why you should (or shouldn't) ski TaosTaos, like Jackson Hole or Snowbird or Palisades Tahoe, has a toughguy reputation. The place ripples with hike-to chutes and glades. To calm visitors shocked by the vertical bump run rocketing skyward beneath Chair 1, Taos to erected this base-area sign decades ago:The sign refers to the infamous Al's Run, which typically ripples with moguls, but was closed on my last visit, in March 2025 (Lift 1 was open):Taos certainly has plenty of nasty. The terrain ripping off the Kachina Peak triple is among the steepest inbounds terrain I'm aware of in America. But what shocked me about the place was how approachable it was for my then-8-year-old son, a solid but very intermediate skier. Every chair other than Kachina offers a top-to-bottom green – and some mostly mellow blues – making Taos one of the better family mountains in America.A lot of the solid-black terrain sits above the lifts, and requires a short, easy hike. If you've ever humped up Catherine's at Alta or Spanky's Ladder on Blackcomb, the ascent off of Lift 2 over to Highline Ridge or West Basin Ridge isn't much longer, and it flattens out considerably after the short incline. Unlike East Wall at A-Basin or Highlands Bowl at Aspen Highlands, this is hike-up terrain that's approachable for people who (like me), live at sea level and only like going up the mountain on machines. The runs are steep, and solo missions are discouraged, but the easy-in and proximity to lifts means a strong skier could reasonably expect to tuck a half-dozen hike-up laps into an afternoon. Here I am huffing and puffing right off Chair 2:Dang those trees are steep even right off the jump. Crunch crunch crunch:Go up a bit higher, and things get Lord of The Rings pretty fast:Taos' only real buyer-beware statistic is its insane base elevation of 9,350 feet, which makes everything, especially sleep, a bit more challenging. That altitude is actually a bit lower than the bases at Copper (9,712) or Breck (9,600). I start to have trouble functioning around 8,000 feet, which is the Vail (8,120), Snowmass (8,110), Snowbird (7,760), and Mammoth (7,953) range. So maybe see how you do at one of those burners before leveling up above 9,000 feet. Or at least arrive knowing that Taos will try punching you in the face. Hydrate and lay off the beer bongs for a day or two. You'll be fine.Podcast NotesOn Stadeli liftsWe've got 16 of these guys left across 10 U.S. ski areas, including Lift 7A at Taos:On the character of old chairliftsI wrote last year that U.S. ski lifts' overall design aesthetic has deteriorated with the decline in number of manufacturers and a tacit emphasis on technology over beauty.And I love old Riblets and Halls and Yans, but sentimentalism that locks skiing in a time capsule ultimately stalls long-term growth and invites disaster-by-disintegration. Rather than fight to live in a museum, I've adopted a quest mentality to ride as many of these dinosaurs as I can before they go extinct:On Taos' base-area fliparoundOn Taos' current masterplanHere's the conceptual overview of Taos' 2021 U.S. Forest Service master development plan:The major unrealized part of this is the base-to-base gondola - here's the most recent plan for that lift:On “class A avalanche mountains” with more than 200 slidepathsKelly mentioned that Taos' more than 200 slidepaths earn it the designation of a Class A avalanche mountain. I of course went looking for a list of U.S. ski areas so classified, and of course did not find one. In a rare exercise in self-restraint, however, I also did not create one. A quick Google search suggests that that such a list would include Alta, Kirkwood, and Stevens Pass alongside Taos. I would also assume that Alpine Meadows, Palisades, Mammoth, Snowbird, Big Sky, Silverton, and Crested Butte are among the most avy prone. That is not a complete list or an attempt at one so please don't write that I “forgot about” some particularly avalanche-prone mountain that I'm not trying very hard to remember.On The Storm's first Taos podcastThe Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

WhoDan Skelton, President and Chief Operating Officer of Blue Mountain, OntarioRecorded onJune 26, 2025About Blue Mountain, OntarioClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Alterra Mountain CompanyLocated in: The Blue Mountains, Ontario, CanadaYear founded: 1941Pass affiliations: Unlimited on Ikon and Ikon BaseBase elevation: 229 feet/750 metersSummit elevation: 1,480 feet/451 metersVertical drop: 730 feet/223 metersSkiable acres: 364 acres/147 hectaresAverage annual snowfall: 154 inches/391 centimetersTrail count: 43Lift count: 11 (5 six-packs, 1 fixed-grip quad, 1 triple, 4 carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Blue Mountain, Ontario's lift fleet)Why I interviewed him: A Very Dumb Story About a Very Dumb Person, Volume IIn the winter of 1995-96, I developed Vertical Fever, a syndrome in which the afflicted believes, in a way that is beyond reason and immune from contrary arguments, that the skiing will be better if the ski hill is taller.This was a problem. Because in 1995, I lived, as I had all my life up to that point, in Michigan. Specifically, Sanford, a flat town in a flat county in what may be the flattest region of the country, the Tri-Cities area of Michigan's Lower Peninsula. Fortunately for a skier, Michigan is cold and full of ski areas. Unfortunately, these ski areas are small or short or both. The tallest of the 33 ski areas inventoried on the 1995 Michigan Downhill Skiing Guide is Boyne Highlands, which then and today promotes a probably made-up vertical drop of 550 feet. Right across the street was 427-vertical-foot Nub's Nob, one of six Lower Peninsula ski areas to exceed 400 vertical, along with Caberfae (485 feet), Shanty Creek Schuss Mountain (450 feet), Sugar Loaf (500 feet), and Boyne Mountain (495 feet).I'd skied all of these and I'd skied them all many times since my first real ski season, which was the previous winter, 1994-95. But once I'd stopped summersaulting down the hill and learned to carve and to land jumps, I grew bored. Skiing in 1995 was not like skiing in 2026. Terrain parks were rare and, anyway, off limits to skiers. Jumping was forbidden. There were signs all over saying so. Everything was groomed and everything was about carving turns, even though grooming was inconsistent and the shaped skis that would transform the average skier into a carver were years away from mass market distribution.So I scoured maps and guidebooks for ski areas of any size in any direction that I could reasonably drive to. To the south lay Ohio and Indiana. Useless. To the north, at the far western end of the Upper Peninsula, lay several 600-ish footers (Mount Bohemia did not open until 2000), but Michigan is a deceptively large state made larger by the inconvenience of driving around gigantic lakes – those UP ski areas were 10 hours away. But also to the north, east instead of west and just over the Canadian border, lay Searchmont: 750 vertical feet of ungladed bananas skiing, with little cliffs and rocks and glades all over. It was a glorious real-life validation of the less-stuffy Canadian ski-area management culture that I'd read about in Skiing and Powder. And it was only a four-hour drive each way, an easy daytrip on the cruise-control-empty interstates of northern Michigan. This is what a Canadian 700-plus-footer is like, I decided, and I searched for more of them.That's when I became obsessed with Blue Mountain, this mysterious guidebook mapdot floating south of Lake Huron. Stat-line, as listed in contemporary guide books: 720 vertical feet, 13 chairlifts and two T-bars, 920 skiable acres (this was, um, not accurate). A Midwest hack, a backdoor to a secret mini-New England unknown to Michiganders. As with Searchmont, I would rise at 4 and arrive by lifts-on and soar all day among the woodsy wide-open drop-step terrain of Ontario yahoo skiing.Yeah it didn't work out like that. The first time I tried to drive to Blue Mountain, I wound up at Mount Brighton, 273 miles away in Southeast Michigan. A blizzard had forced course correction to a more achievable destination. But the second time, I made it. Here's how it went, per a journal entry I wrote few days later:Monday, March 25th, 1996 – 11:53 p.m.Let's just call Friday the day that didn't quite flow. In fact, it didn't flow like no day on skis ever hasn't. First off, I only slept four hours. Normally , I wouldn't give a f**k, but that was directly following three hours the night before, which didn't help my status in an already exhausting week. Then there was the drive. I figured four, maybe five hours at the most, 250 miles, give or take. Wrong. I only realized this somewhere well over the Canadian border. Six hours, 350 miles. Then there's the mountain.I knew Blue was big, but I was not, I'll admit, in any way, shape, or form prepared for what I found Friday. The place is enormous by Midwest standards, though not as mammoth as I'd originally thought coming up the road, scoping out the two private resorts. Notice I said “enormous,” not necessarily “good.” Which is sad, cause, for one thing, they're trying pretty hard to make a good hill, and, #2, I drove a long f****n' way to get there. The whole thing bore a striking resemblance to western skiing – enormous base lodges, hugely wide runs, high-speed chairs. Which I suppose makes it ideal for families. Then there's the fifty miles or so of safety fence, zero ungroomed runs, and as many jumps as a Fat Albert convention. This, I surmise, makes it extremely unideal for Stuarts. In fact, I really didn't enjoy it at all. It was bland, repetitive, and almost sickening in its nature. I was tired, pissed, and lonely. The highlight of the day was jumping off the cornice which was the subject of much inner conflict. But I did it, and I'm glad, and then I drove home, and I'm glad for that too.I only skied four-and-a-half hours. My ticket was good til' ten, but I considered a lot of things. For starters, it only cost me twenty bucks; second, I told Clint I was gonna make it a point to get out of there by four [to hang out], so I sorta tried; third, I'd skied the whole f****n' place anyhow, and I really didn't feel like getting home at four AM. It's not like I didn't ski well, cause I was actually carving and reacting magnificently (to the terrain, not the carving). I was fluid, but I needed more variety, and they just didn't deliver.It would have been nice to have the internet in 1996 (it existed, but almost no one used it, partly because there was almost nothing on it, including driving directions, maps, or trailmaps).Great endorsement of Blue Mountain, Stu. You managed to convince people not to go and make the people who do ski there feel bad about it all at once. Slow clap for aggressive transparency.But my message here is hardly “Blue Mountain sucks don't go.” Blue Mountain is, as it was 30 years ago, exactly what it needs to be: a rapid-fire lap machine optimized to provide a consistent ski experience to the residents of Canada's densest metro area, Toronto. Blue is, historically and probably still, the third-busiest ski area in Canada after Tremblant and Whistler. It is a low-altitude, variable-weather, high-volume business tasked with the twin burdens of being the sole public outpost for recreational skiing in a ridgeline of upscale private clubs and being a profitable enterprise. It is, from a dollar-generating and Ikon Pass-dispersal-to-the-West point of view, probably one of Alterra's most important ski areas.The problem, then, is not that every ski area isn't like Searchmont. The problem is that, in 1996, I thought every ski area should be like Searchmont. It was like walking into a pizza parlor and complaining that they didn't sell tacos. I was young and dumb, and it didn't occur to me until arrival that a 700-ish-vertical-foot ski area dangling off the far eastern end of the Lake Superior wilderness (Searchmont), would, by custom and by necessity, offer a far different ski experience than a 700-ish-vertical-foot satellite orbiting metro Toronto (Blue). I thought every ski area should be for me and for people like me, like the people I read about in ski magazines who toured B.C. in rusty pickup trucks and never took bathroom breaks and who viewed skiing as a constant level-up challenge.Thirty years later, I view Blue Mountain differently, for two reasons. The first is that I'm sure that Blue, like nearly all North American ski areas, is a more interesting mountain in 2026 than it was in 1996. Freeski culture and snowboarding really did loosen up skiing's stodgier tendencies, most visibly with the widespread building of come-one-come-all terrain parks. The second is that I no longer approach ski areas by asking if they are the best possible experience for me, but if they are the best possible version of themselves for the demographic of skiers who are most likely to ski there. And with Blue – which I will admit, I never visited again - the answer appears to be, always and ever upward, yes.What we talked aboutOh Ontario; being a Canadian ski area owned by a U.S. company; “one of the beauties of being part of Alterra is our emphasis on honoring and preserving the uniqueness of each resort and each mountain community”; Blue Mountain's Reserve Pass; fixing up Blue's disordered lift mazes; growing up at the base of Blue Mountain; the amazing evolution of ski area technology; Blue's wacky, charismatic founder; preserving the mountain's independent character after it's been absorbed by a conglomerate; Blue in the ‘70s; building Blue's snowmaking system; big leaps forward in snowmaking during the 1990s; the rise of HKD; Alterra's point of view on snowmaking; the hit-or-miss Lake Huron and Georgian Bay lake-effect snowbelts; snowmaking in the era of climate change; how snow-depth technology impacts snowmaking volumes; living through the transition from independence to Intrawest and ultimately to Alterra; how the village transformed Blue; “we come to the table scrappy, inventive, entrepreneurial” to this company of mega-resort destinations; the impact of the Ikon Pass; Blue's amazing lift fleet and how the six-pack became the mountain's workhorse; building chairlifts in-house; 15,000 skiers on Blue's busiest days; “we're not going to cut any new trails, so we gotta squeeze every little bit out and make sure we have a balanced experience”; whether Blue could upgrade to an eight-place lift; operating as the only substantial public ski area amid a huge number of private ski areas; and Blue's history owning and operating the neighboring Georgian Peaks ski area.What I got wrongI mentioned that HKD President Charles Santry had told the same side of a story that Skelton shared on a previous podcast recording, which he had. The problem is that as of now, I still haven't released that pod with Santry. Stand by.Podcast NotesOn IntrawestA brief history of Intrawest:On “Rusty” in the Alterra/Ikon transitionSkelton was referring to Rusty Gregory, Alterra CEO from 2018 to '22.On Blue's 1980 trailmapThe Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

WhoTim Smith, President and General Manager of Waterville Valley, New HampshireRecorded onNovember 12, 2025About Waterville ValleyClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: The Sununu FamilyLocated in: Waterville Valley, New HampshireYear founded: 1966Pass affiliations:* Indy Pass, Indy+ Pass: 2 days, no blackouts* White Mountain Super Pass: unlimited, no blackouts* Indy Learn-to-Turn: 3 days, includes rentals, lesson, lift ticket; limited lift access* Ski New Hampshire Kids Passport: 1 day with holiday blackouts* Uphill New England: no lift accessBase elevation: 1,984 feet (highest in New Hampshire, 3rd in New England)Summit elevation: 4,004 feet (2nd-highest in New Hampshire, 5th in New England)Vertical drop: 2,020 feet (4th-highest in New Hampshire, 14th in New England)Skiable acres: 265Average annual snowfall: 148 inchesTrail count: 62 (14% novice, 64% intermediate, 22% advanced)Lift count: 10 (1 six-pack, 1 high-speed quad, 2 triples, 2 doubles, 2 T-bars, 2 carpets)Why I interviewed himWell no one wants to hear this but we got to $300 lift tickets the same way we got to $80,000 pickup trucks. We're Americans Goddamnit and we just can't do stickshifts and we sure as s**t ain't standin' up on our skis to ride back up the mountain. It's pure agony you see. We need us a nine-pack chairlift with a bubble and a breakroom and a minibar and surround sound and Lazy-Boy seats and hell no we ain't ridin' it with eight strangers we'll hold back and take a whole chair to our ownselves. And it needs to move fast, Son. Like embarrass-the-Concord fast because God help us we spend more than 90 seconds with our own thoughts.I'm not aiming to get kicked out of America here, but if I may submit a few requests regarding our self-inflicted false price floors. I would like the option of purchasing a brand-new car with a manual transmission and windows rolled up and down with a hand-crank. I would like to keep pedaling my bicycle. I would like to cut the number of holidays with commercial mandates by 80 percent. I would prefer that we not set the air-conditioners to 60 when it's 65 degrees outside. This doesn't mean I want to get rid of all the air-conditioners but could we maybe take it easy on the frostbite-in-July overkill of it all?My Heretic Wishlist for American Skiing includes but is not limited to: more surface lifts, especially to serve terrain parks, high-altitude exposed terrain, and expert pods; on-resort lodging that does not still require a commute-by-personal-vehicle to reach the lifts; and thoughtful terrain management that retains ungroomed sections for skiers who like things about skiing other than going fast.Waterville Valley is doing all of these things. It is perhaps the only major American ski area in decades to replace a chairlift with a surface lift on a non-beginner terrain pod, and the only one to build two new T-bars this century. A planned gondola would connect Waterville Valley the town with Waterville Valley the ski area, correcting an only-in-America setup that separates these inseparable places by two miles of road. The glade network grows annually in both subtle and obvious ways.This is not a ski area going in reverse. Waterville is modern and keeps modernizing. The four-year-old Tecumseh bubble six-pack, though bookended with T-bars, is one of the nicest chairlifts in America. Skiers still go groomer-kaboom on morning cord. Suburban office-park dads with interstate commutes and a habit of lecturing the Facebook Commons about the virtues of snow tires can still park their 42-wheel-drive Abrams-Caterpillar-F-15,000 Tanktruck in sub-parking lot 42Z and walk uphill to the lifts. But Waterville Valley is one of a handful of American ski areas, along with Killington and Deer Valley and Winter Park, that is embracing all of our luxe cultural excesses while pursuing the very un-American ambition of putting more skiers close to skiing.No ski area is perfect. For all the cash saved on those T-bars, peak-day Waterville lift tickets still hit $145. The mountain's season pass is the second-most expensive single-mountain season passes in New England – more than a top-line Epic Pass (an adult WV pass includes a free pass for a kid age 6 to 12, which is great if you have one of those). That's bold pricing for the 22nd-largest ski area in New England, especially one that still spins three Stadeli chairlifts that predate the extinction of the dinosaurs. And two high-speed chairlifts is not a lot of high-speed chairlifts for a 2,000-vertical-foot ski area (though about half of New England's 2,000-footers run just two or fewer detaches).Yeah I know. Sick burn from someone who was waxing about surface lifts four paragraphs ago. I may have collected too many ski area Lego blocks in my mental bucket, and they don't always click together back here on planet Earth. “More villages,” I say while dismissing Aspen as a subsidized simulacrum of itself. “Big fast lifts rule,” I say while setting off fire alarms as first-generation chairlifts disintegrate and the cost of their most basic replacements escalates. “No-grooming, all-glades makes the best ski area,” I say, while condemning resort operators for $356 lift tickets that dam the masses. “Vail is too expensive,” I say. “Vail is too cheap,” I also say. “Modernize our chairlifts,” I say while celebrating the joy of riding an antique Riblet double. I endorse ski areas splitting off from conglomerates and ski areas joining them. These narratives can feel contradictory at best and schizophrenic at worst.But that tension is part of what draws me to lift-served ski areas, where two things central to my worldview – wild nature and human invention – merge. Or perhaps more accurately, collide. Both forces act at all times not only to extinguish one another, but themselves: above-freezing temps trash two feet of new snow; bad liftline management cancels out the capacity benefits of a $12 million lift upgrade. Making a ski area function, then, requires continual tweaking, of both the nuanced and look-at-us-press-release variety. A ski area is a business, sure, but that's almost a coincidence. The act of building and running a ski area is foremost an art, architecture, and engineering project that requires a somewhat madcap conductor to succeed. As with any artform, there is no one correct and final way to build a ski area. The variety is central to skiing's appeal. But there are operator/artist attributes - flexibility, inventiveness, consistency tempered by openness to change - that contribute to the overall quality and cohesion of the individual ski area experience in the context of competing ski areas. In the current version of Waterville Valley, we find one of our best contemporary examples of a ski area evolving toward the best version of itself under the stewardship of owners and managers possessing exactly these traits.What we talked aboutThe return of World Cup training and events to Waterville; drifting away from and back toward freeskiing culture; the best terrain parks in New England; why terrain parks are drifting away from mega-features; what happened to all the halfpipes?; and ramps?; no really no one wore helmets in the ‘90s; building terrain parks before institutional knowledge and the internet; the lost Hidden Valley, Wisconsin ski area; the rise of the high-speed ropetow; why Waterville replaced one T-bar and one Poma with a new T-bar (rather than a chairlift); why Waterville installed night skiing; the return of the Exhibition terrain park; self-installing the World Cup T-bar; Waterville's ops blog; why the Tecumseh Express sixer needed new bubbles after just a couple of seasons; why bubbles cost so much and how Waterville manufactured a less expensive one; Tecumseh's incredible wind resistance; MND lifts as an alternative to the two large U.S.-based lift manufacturers; a chairlift's “infancy” and how different 2020s lift technology is from early detachable tech; how Waterville's masterplan would reorient the mountain and skier traffic with an expansion and new lifts; Waterville's declining skier visits and whether that's a bad thing; how the resort's 1994 bankruptcy changed Waterville's trajectory; what stoked the Green Peak expansion; “we've been on a track to try to rebuild that energy we saw in the 1990s”; why Waterville turned away from discounting; “the right quantity of skiers on the right amount of surface”; building more terrain diversity; and a gondola connection from town to mountain.Should someone tell them they're running it backwards? Video by Stuart Winchester.What I got wrong* I said that the “High Country double chair was still standing” – what I meant was that parts of it were still in place. The top terminal remains, sans bullwheel, and the base terminal and motor room remain as a patrol shack:* I said that Waterville hadn't been known for terrain parks until recently, but Smith recalled that the ski area was more freestyle-centric from the ‘70s through the ‘90s, before pulling back during the first part of this century.* I said that 1,100 skiers per hour was “a little less than what a double chair would move,” thinking standard capacity for a double was 1,200 per hour. Smith says it is 900. Exact capacity varies from lift-to-lift, however. Lift Blog itemizes hourly capacities of between 800 and 1,200 for four of Smugglers' Notch's double chairs, between 1,000 and 1,200 for four of Mt. Spokane's fleet of Riblet doubles, and 1,000 for Waterville's Lower Meadows double. We all know, however, that the hourly capacity for a double chair is however many people are in line minus the number not paying attention minus singles who refuse to ride with anyone. So I don't know maybe 50.Podcast NotesOn other mentioned podcasts* World Cup competition returning to Sun Valley:* Heavenly backing out of mega-parks features:* Killington and the cost of bubbles:* Waterville part 1, from 2021:On Partek and each lift being differentOn Waterville's ownership historyFounder Tom Corcoran owned Waterville Valley from 1966 until 1994, when he sold to American Skiing Company (ASC) antecedent S-K-I. The feds made ASC dispense with Waterville and Cranmore when they merged with LBO Enterprises in 1996. Booth Creek (more on them below), bought the ski area and held it until 2010, when they sold it to the Sununu family. This makes Waterville one of just a handful of ski areas to ever enter a multi-mountain pass portfolio and then exit to independence - though Killington and Ragged recently did exactly that, and Eldora may follow.On Mt. Holiday, MichiganThis is just a little 200-footer, but it's still around on the outskirts of Traverse City, Michigan:That trailmap doesn't really communicate the ski area's essence. A little better are these pics I took on a summertime swing-through a few years back:I never skied there though, always preferring the far-larger Sugar Loaf, right down the road (which Smith and I also discussed):Until it was abandoned around 2000, this was one of the better ski areas in Michigan's Lower Peninsula. After a succession of owners - one of whom stripped all the chairlifts off the bump - failed to bring skiing back, the Leelanau Conservancy recently took ownership of the property. Skiing will return as an officially sanctioned activity, though unfortunately without a lift or snowmaking. I would have at least liked to have seen a ropetow. Here's their vision:On midwestskier.com Yes, Kids, the internet really did used to look like this:On Hidden Valley, WisconsinHere's a little ski hill that didn't make it. Smith spent time at Hidden Valley, Wisconsin, which opened in 1956 and closed forever in 2013. The chairlift appears to have been moved to nearby, county-run Kewaunee Winter Park, where it awaits installation.On high-speed ropetowsI am a huge fan of high-speed ropetows, which are a cheap and effective means to isolate users of terrain parks or other specialized, intensive-use zones from the broader ski area. Here's one at Spirit Mountain, Minnesota in 2023 (video by Stuart Winchester):On Waterville Valley's masterplanThis is perhaps the best angle of how Waterville's expansion would connect the legacy trail network to the town:Here's the Forest Service masterplan slide:Neither of these images, however, show how the gondola would eventually connect down into town, which is the crucial element of transforming Waterville Valley from a ski-area-that-says-it's-a-ski-resort into an actual ski resort. Here's a look at that connection:Waterville set up an excellent microsite detailing the hoped-for evolution.On Booth CreekAt the mid-90s height of American Skiing Company dominance, a former Vail executive assembled a cross-country ski area portfolio with ambitions of creating a hub-and-spoke network:Booth Creek ultimately sold off most of its properties, but still own Sierra-at-Tahoe. Grand Targhee GM Geordie Gillett was involved in the whole saga and broke it down for us in 2024:On Waterville going from one of the oldest lift fleets in New England to one of the most modernWhile Waterville runs some of the last Stadeli lifts in America (I count 16), the ski area has modernized extensively over the past decade:On U.S. Forest Service ski areas in the EastMost (109) of the 119 active U.S. ski areas on United States Forest Service leases sit in the West; two are in the Midwest, and eight are in the East: Bromley, Mount Snow, and Sugarbush, Vermont; Waterville Valley, Loon, Attitash, and Wildcat, New Hampshire; and Timberline, West Virginia. None, as far as I know, sit entirely within the boundaries of a national forest, but even partial overlap triggers the requirement to submit an updated masterplan each decade.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

WhoSusan Cross, Vice President of Operations at Aspen Skiing Company (and former Mountain Manager of Snowmass)Recorded onNovember 14, 2025 - which was well before I traveled to Snowmass and chased Cross around a bit in the pow. There she is tiny in the distance:About Aspen Skiing CompanyAspen Skiing Company (Skico) is part of something called Aspen One. Don't ask me what that is because even though they rolled it out two years ago I still have no idea what they're talking about. All I know or care about is that they own four ski areas and here is what I know about them:Don't be fooled by the scale of the map above - at 3,342 acres, Snowmass is larger than Aspen Mountain, Buttermilk, and Aspen Highlands combined. The monster 4,400-foot vert means these lifts are massively shrunken to fit the map - Snowmass operates three of the 10 longest chairlifts in America, and seven chairlifts over one mile long:You can't ski or ride a lift between the four mountains, but free shuttles connect them all. Aspen Mountain, Highlands, and Buttermilk are all bunched together near town, and Snowmass is a short drive (15 to 20 minutes if traffic is clear and dependent upon which base area you want to hit):Why I interviewed herAmerican ski areas will often re-use chairlifts or snowcats that other operators have outgrown. Aspen Mountain re-used a whole town.In 1879, Aspen the city didn't exist, and by 1890 more than 5,000 people lived there. They came for silver, not snow. In less than a decade they laid out the Victorian street grid of brick and wood-framed buildings using hand tools and horses, with the Roaring Fork River as their supply road.Aspen's population collapsed in the economic depressions of the 1890s and didn't rebound to 5,000 for 100 years. The 1940 Census counted 777 residents. That was 16 years before the first chairlift rose up Ajax, a perfect ski mountain above an intact but semi-abandoned town made pointless by history.It was an amazing coincidence, really. Americans would never build a ski town on purpose. That's where the parking lots go. But hey it all worked out: Aspen evolved into a ski town that offset its European walk-to-the-chairlifts sensibility with a hard-coded American refusal to expand the historic street grid in favor of protectionism and mansion-building. The contemporary result is one of the world's most expensive real estate markets cosplaying as a quaint ski town, a lively and walkable mixed-use community of the sort that we idealize but refuse to build more of. Aspen's population is now around 7,000, most of whom live there by benefit of longevity, subsidy, inheritance, or extreme wealth. The city's median household income is just over $50,000. The median home price is $9.5 million. Anyone clinging to the illusion that Aspen is an actual ski town should consider that it took 25 years to approve and build the Hero's chairlift. Imagine what the fellows who built this whole city in half a decade without the benefit of electricity or cement trucks or paved roads would make of that.The illusory city, however, is a dynamic separate from the skiing. Aspen, despite its somewhat dated lift fleet, remains one of America's best small ski mountains. But it is small, and, with no green terrain and barely any blues, the ski area lacks the substance and scale to draw tourists west of Summit County and Vail.Sister mountain Snowmass does that. And while Snowmass did not benefit from an already-built town at its base, it did benefit from not having one, in that the mountain could evolve with a purpose and speed that Ajax, boxed in by geography and politics, never could. Snowmass has built 13 new aerial lifts this century, including the two-station, mountain-redefining Elk Camp Gondola; the Village Express six-pack, which is the fourth-longest chairlift in America; and, in just the past two years, a considerably lengthened Coney high-speed quad and a new six-pack to replace the Elk Camp chairlift.I've focused on Aspen's story a bit over the years (including this 2021 podcast with former Skico CEO Mike Kaplan), but probably not enough. The four Aspen mountains are some of the most important in American skiing, even if visitation doesn't quite match their status as skiing word-association champion among non-skiers (more on that below). Aspen, a leader not just in skiing but in housing, the environment, and culture, carries narrative heft, and the company's status as favored property of Alterra part-owner Henry Crown hints at deeper influence than Skico likely takes credit for. Aspen, like Big Sky and Deer Valley and Sun Valley, is rapidly emerging as one of the new titans of American skiing, unleashing a modernization drive that should lead, as Cross says in our conversation, to an average of at least one new lift per year across the portfolio. Snowmass' 2023 U.S. Forest Service masterplan envisions a fully modern mountain with snowmaking to the summit. Necessary and exciting as that all is, forthcoming updates to the dated masterplans at Aspen Highlands (2013) and Buttermilk (2008), could, Skico officials tell me, offer a complete rethinking of what Aspen-Snowmass is and how the ski areas orbit one another as a unit.And they do need to rethink the whole package. Challenging Skico's pre-eminence in the Circle of American Ski Gods are many obstacles, including but not limited to: an address that's just a bit remote for Denver to bother with or tourists to comprehend; a rinky-dink airport that can't land a paper plane; an only-come-if-you-have-nine-houses rap on the affordability matrix; a toxic combination of one of America's most expensive season passes and most expensive walk-up lift tickets; and national pass partners who do a poor job making it clear that Aspen is not one ski area but four.A lot to overcome, but I think they'll figure it out. The skiing is too good not to. What we talked about“I thought I had found Heaven” upon arrival in Aspen; Aspen in the 1990s; $200 a month to live in Carbondale; “as soon as you go up on the lifts, the mountain hasn't changed”; when Skico purchased formerly independent Aspen Highlands; Highlands pre-detachable lifts; four ski areas working (and not), as one ski resort; why there is “minimal sharing” of employees between the four mountains; why “two winter seasons, and then I was going back to Boston” didn't quite work out; why “total guilt sets in” if Cross misses a day of skiing and how she “deliberately” makes “at least a couple of runs” happen every day of the winter and encourages everyone else to do the same; Long Shot in the morning; the four pods of Snowmass; why tourists tend to lock onto one section of the mountain; “a lot of people don't realize their lift ticket is good for the four mountains”; “there's plenty of room to spread out and have a blast” even at busy Snowmass; defining the four mountains without typecasting them; no seriously there are no green runs on Aspen Mountain; the new Elk Camp six-pack; why Elk Camp doesn't terminate at the top of Burnt Mountain; why Elk Camp doesn't have the fancy carriers that came with 2024's new Coney Express lift; why Snowmass opted not to add bubbles to its six-packs; how Coney Express changed how skiers use Snowmass; why Coney is a quad rather than a six; why skiers can't unload at the Coney Express mid-station (and couldn't load last season); how Coney ended up with a mid-station and two bends along the liftline; the hazards of bending chairlifts and lessons learned from Alta's Supreme debacle; why Snowmass replaced the Cirque Poma with a T-bar (and not a chairlift); which mountain purchased the old Poma; Aspen's history of selling lifts and how the old Elk Camp wound up at Powderhorn ski area; where Skico had considered moving the Elk Camp quad; “we want everybody to stay in business”; why Snowmass didn't sell or relocate the Coney Glade lift; prioritizing future chairlift upgrades; the debate over whether to replace Elk Camp or Alpine Springs first, and why Elk Camp won; “what we're trying to do is at least one lift a year across the four mountains”; a photobomb from my cat; why the relatively new Village Express lift is a replacement candidate and where that lift could move; why we're unlikely to see the proposed Burnt Mountain chairlift anytime soon; and the new megalift that could rise on Aspen Mountain this summer.What I got wrong* I said that Breck had “T-bars serving their high peaks,” which is incorrect. In fact, Breck runs chairlifts close to the summits of Peak 8 (Imperial Superchair, the highest chairlift in North America), and Peak 6 (Kensho Superchair). I was thinking, however, of the Horseshoe T-Bar, an incredible high-alpine machine that I rode recently (it lands below Imperial Superchair on Peak 8).* I said that Maverick Mountain, Montana, was running a “1960-something” Riblet double. The lift dates to 1969, and is slated for replacement by Aspen Mountain's old Gent's Ridge fixed-grip quad, which Skico removed in 2024.* I referred to the Sheer Bliss chairlift as “Super Bliss,” which I think was fallout from over-exposure to Breck, where 12 of the chairlifts are named [SOMETHING] Superchair or some similar name.Why you should ski Aspen-SnowmassWhy do we ski Colorado? In some ways, it's a dumb question. We ski Colorado because everyone skis Colorado: the state's resorts account for 20 to 25 percent of annual U.S. skier visits, inbounds skiable acreage, and detachable chairlifts. Colorado is so synonymous with skiing that the state basically is skiing from the point of view of the outside world, especially to non-skiers who, challenged to name a ski resort, would probably come up with Vail or Aspen.But among well-traveled skiers, Colorado is Taylor Swift. Talented, yes, but a bit too obvious and sell-your-kidneys expensive. There's a lot more music out there: Utah gets more snow, Idaho and Montana have fewer people, B.C.'s Powder Highway has both of those things. Europe is cheaper (well, everywhere is cheaper). Colorado is only home to 26 public, lift-served ski areas, and only two of the 10 largest in America. Only seven Colorado ski areas rank among the nation's 50 snowiest by average annual snowfall. Getting there is a hassle. That awful airport. That stupid road. So many Texans. So many New Yorkers. Alternate, Man!But we all go anyway. And here's why: Colorado ski areas claim 14 of the 20 highest base areas in North America, and 16 of the 20 highest summits. What that means is that, unlike in Tahoe or Park City or Idaho, it never rains. Temperatures rarely top freezing. That means the snow that falls stays, and stays nice. Even in a mediocre Rocky Mountain winter – like this one – Colorado is able to deliver a consistent and predictable trail footprint in a way that no other U.S. ski state can match. Add in an abundance of approachable, intermediate-oriented ski terrain, and it's clear why America's two largest ski area operators center their multi-mountain pass empires in Colorado.Which brings us back to the thing most skiers hate the most about Colorado skiing: other skiers. There are just so many of them. And they all planned the same vacation. For the same time.But there is a back door. Around half of Colorado's 12 to 14 million annual skier visits occur at just five ski areas: Vail Mountain, Breck, Keystone, Copper, and Steamboat – often but not always strictly in that order. Next comes Winter Park, then Beaver Creek. And all the way down at number eight for Colorado annual skier visits is Snowmass.Snowmass' 771,259 skier visits is still a lot of skier visits. But consider some additional stats: Snowmass is the third-largest ski area in Colorado and the 11th-largest in America. From a skier visits-to-skiable-acreage ratio, it comes in way below the state's other 2,000-plus-acre ski areas (save Telluride, which is even more remote than Aspen):Why is that? The map explains it: Snowmass, and Aspen in general, lost the I-70 sweepstakes. They're too far west, too far off the interstate (so is Steamboat, but at least they have a real airport).Snowmass is worth the extra drive time. I-70 through Glenwood Canyon is slow-going but gorgeous, and the 40 miles of Colorado 82 after the interstate turnoff barely qualify as mountain driving – four lanes most of the way, no tight turns, some congestion but only if you're arriving in the morning. A roundabout or two and there you are at Snowmass.And here's what that extra two hours of driving gets you: all the benefits of Colorado skiing absent most of its drawbacks. Goldilocks Mountain. Here you'll find the fourth-highest lift-served summit in American skiing, the second-tallest vertical drop, and a dizzying, dazzling modern lift fleet spinning 20 lifts, including 9 detachables and a gondola. You'll find glorious ever-cruisers, tree-dotted and infinite; long bumpers twisting off High Alpine; comically approachable green zones at the village and mid-mountain. If Campground double is open, you can sample Colorado skiing circa 1975, alone in the big empty lapping the long, slow lift. And since the Brobots hate Snowmass, the high-altitude Hanging Valley and Cirque Headwall expert zones are always empty.That's one of four mountains. Towering, no-greens-for-real Aspen Mountain and Aspen Highlands are as rugged and wicked as anything a Colorado chairlift can drop you onto. And Buttermilk is just delightful – 2,000 vertical feet of no-stress-with-the-9-year-old, with fast lifts back to the top all day long.Podcast NotesOn Sugarbush and Mad River GlenI always like to make this point for western partisans: there is eastern skiing that stacks up well against the average western ski experience. Most of it is in northern Vermont, and two of the best, terrain-wise, are Alterra-owned Sugarbush - home of the longest chairlift in the world - and co-op-owned Mad River Glen, which still spins the only single chair in the lower 48. Here's Sugarbush:Mad River Glen is right next door. Just keep going looker's right off Mt. Ellen:On pre-Skico HighlandsWhoa that's a lot of lifts. And they're almost all doubles and Pomas.On Joe HessionHession is founder and CEO of Snow Partners, which owns Mountain Creek ski area, the Big Snow indoor ski ramp in New Jersey, Snow Cloud resort-management software, the Snow Triple Play Pass, and the Terrain Based Learning concept that you see in beginner areas all over America. He's been on the pod a few times, and he's a huge fan of Susan's.On Timberline's wonky vertMeasuring vertical drop is a somewhat hazardous game. Potential asterisks include the clandestine inclusion of hike-up terrain (Aspen Highlands), ski-down terrain with no return lift access (Sunlight), or both (Arapahoe Basin). Generally, I refer to lift-served vert, meaning what you can ski down and ride back up without walking. But even that gets tricky, as in the case of Timberline Lodge, Oregon, home to the tallest vertical drop in American lift-served skiing. We have to get mighty creative with the definition of “lift” however, since Timberline includes a 557-vertical-foot lift-served gap between the top of the Summit chairlift (4,290 feet) and the bottom of the Jeff Flood high-speed quad (4,847 feet). This is the result of two historically separate ski areas combining in 2018:Timberline's masterplan calls for a gondola from the base of Summit up to the top of Jeff Flood:For now, skiers can ski all the way down, but have to ride back up to Timberline from the Summit base via shuttle. To further complicate the calculus here, the hyper-exposed Palmer high-speed summit quad rarely runs in winter, acting mostly as a summer workhorse for camp kids. When Palmer's not running, a snowcat will sometimes shuttle skiers close to the unload point.Anyway, that's the fine print annotating our biggest lift-served vertical drop list:On Big Sky's new lifts and pod-stickingSnowmass' recent lift upgrade splurges are impressive, but Big Sky has built an incredible 12 aerial lifts in the past decade, 11 of them brand-new. These are some of the most sophisticated lifts in the world and include two six-packs, two eight-packs, a tram, and two gondolas. This reverse chronology of Big Sky's active lifts doubles as a neat history of the mountain's evolution from striver importing other resorts' leftovers to one of the top ski areas on the continent:Big Sky still has some older chairs spinning along its margins, but plenty of tourists spend their entire vacation just lapping the out-of-base super lifts (according to on-the-ground staff). The only peer Big Sky has in the recent American lift upgrade game is Deer Valley, which has erected nearly a dozen aerial lifts in just the past two years to feed its mega-expansion.On the Ikon Pass site being confusing as to mountain accessI just find the classification of four separate and distinct ski areas as one “destination” confusing, especially for skiers who aren't familiar with the place:On the new Elk Camp chairliftThe upside of taking nine years to distribute this podcast is that I was able to go ride Snowmass' gorgeous new Elk Camp sixer:On my Superstar lift discussion with KillingtonOn Aspen's history of selling liftsI somewhat overstated Aspen's history of selling lifts to smaller mountains. It seemed like a lot, though these are the only ones I can find records of:However, given Skico's enormous number of retired Riblets (28, all but two of which were doubles), and the durability and ubiquity of these machines, I suspect that pieces – and perhaps wholes – of Aspen's retired chairlifts are scattered in boneyards across the West.On the small number of relocated detachable lifts Given that the world's first modern detachable chairlift debuted at Breckenridge 45 years ago, it's astonishing how few have been relocated. Only 19 U.S. detaches that started life within the U.S. are now operating elsewhere in the country, and only nine moved to a different ski area:On Powderhorn's West End chairThe number of relocated detachables is set to increase to 10 next year, when Powderhorn, Colorado repurposes Snowmass' old Elk Camp quad to replace this amazing, 7,000-foot-long double chair, a 1972 Heron-Poma machine:Elk Camp is already sitting in a pile beside the load station (Powderhorn officials tell me the carriers are also onsite, but elsewhere):Powderhorn's existing high-speed quad, the Flat Top Flyer, also came used, from Marble Mountain in Canada.On Snowmass' masterplan and the proposed Burnt Mountain liftSnowmass' most recent U.S. Forest Service masterplan, released in 2022, shows the approximate location of a future hypothetical Burnt Mountain chairlift (the left-most red dotted line below):Unfortunately, Cross and the rest of Skico's leadership seem fairly unenthusiastic about actually building this lift. Right now, skiers can hike from the top of Elk Camp chair to access this terrain.On Aspen's Nell-Bell ProposalOh man how freaking cool would it be to ride one chairlift from Aspen's base to the top of Bell? Cross and I discuss Aspen Mountain's Forest Service application to do exactly that, with a machine along roughly this line parallel to the gondola:The new detachable would replace two rarely-used chairs: the Nell fixed-grip quad and the Bell Mountain double chair, which, incredibly, dates to 1957 (with heavy modifications in the 1980s), making it the fourth-oldest standing chairlift in the nation (after Mt. Spokane's 1956 Vista Cruiser Riblet, Mad River Glen's 1946 American Steel & Wire single chair, and Boyne Mountain's Hemlock Riblet double, moved to Michigan in 1948 after starting life circa 1936 as America's first chairlift – a single standing at Sun Valley).I lucked out with a gondola wind hold when I was in Aspen a few weeks back, meaning Nell was spinning:Sadly, Bell was idle, but I skied the liftline and loaded up on photos:On the original Lift 1 at AspenBehold Lift 1 on Aspen Mountain, a 1946 American Steel & Wire single chair that rose 2,574 vertical feet along an 8,480-foot line in something like 35 or 40 minutes. Details on this lift's origin story and history vary, but commenters on Lift Blog suggest that towers from this lift ended up as part of Sunlight's Segundo double following its removal from Ajax in 1971. That Franken-lift, which also contained parts from Aspen's Lift 3 – which dated to 1954 and may have been a Poma or American Steel & Wire machine, but lived its 52-year Sunlight tenure as a Riblet – came down last summer to make way for a new-used triple – A-Basin's old Lenawee chair.On the Hero's expansionAt just 826 acres, Aspen Mountain is the most famous small ski area in the West. The reason, in part, for this notoriety: a quirky, lively treasure chest of a ski area that rockets straight up, hiding odd little terrain pockets in its fingers and folds. The 153-acre Hero's terrain, a byzantine scramble of high-altitude tree skiing opened just two years ago, fits into this Rocky Mountain minefield like a thousand-dollar bill in a millionaire's wallet. An obscene boost to an already near-perfect ski mountain, so good it's hard to believe the ski area existed so long without it.Here's a mellow section of Hero's:And a less-mellow one (adding to the challenge, this terrain is at 11,000 feet):The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

WhoShaun Sutner, snowsports columnist for the Worcester Telegram & Gazette and Telegram.comRecorded onNovember 24, 2025Why I interviewed himHey Man, we do this every year:What we talked aboutThe psychology of injury recovery; the power of being there; the “gladiatorial atmosphere” of ski racing; the East's strong winter; a Canadian facepalm; the Black Mountain, New Hampshire co-op; Hermon Mountain, Maine for sale; how to make a crappy old ski area into a modern-seeming ski area without big infrastructure upgrades; is every ski area closing a tragedy?; Lost Valley, Maine; lost Berkshires ski areas that make great backcountry ski spots; new owners at Ragged, New Hampshire; Magic Mountain, Vermont and the four-year lift installation; would Vail Resorts purchase Smugglers' Notch, Vermont?; assessing Killington's independent owners one year in; the Super Star six-pack upgrade at Killington; is it worth buying a new lift if it doesn't improve capacity?; why Loveland, Colorado's only detachable lift is also one of its shortest; expectations and potential from Berkshire East buying Burke, Vermont; is the demise of the good ol' boy overstated?; Wachusett's new six-pack; locals hate everything; priorities for New England lift upgrades; will Cannon ever replace its decommissioned tram (and should it be with a gondola)?; should New Hampshire lease out Cannon?; Whaleback's chairlift woes; thoughts on the Boston Ski Show moving to Connecticut; and BOA boot buckles.What I got wrongMost of these aren't “wrong,” so much as outdated:* We recorded this as Sutner was still recovering from an injury, and he said he wouldn't be able to get back to skiing until, um, February. Which is now I guess.* We talked about the “budding winter,” which started strong in November, but has kept banging away to be one of the best ski seasons in recent New England history.* We discuss since-resolved drama at Black Mountain around a withheld liquor license for the mid-mountain champagne shack.* Sutner didn't get this wrong – he was prescient, however, in saying Pacific Group Resorts would do something “big” after selling Ragged – the company purchased Silver Star, British Columbia shortly after we spoke:Then there were these:* I didn't really understand the point of Hermon Mountain, but between recording and releasing this episode, I was able to visit it. Stand by for that write-up, which helped me understand it as a teen holding pen for Bangor Maine.* I said that Pacific Group Resorts “may have” purchased Powderhorn after its Flat Top Flyer high-speed quad installation – that is the case; the lift arrived in 2015, and PGR bought the ski area in 2018.* Sure enough, Burke joined the Berkshire Summit Pass - a season pass for sister resorts Berkshire East and Catamount, as well as Bousquet. Here are the details:I said the Mohegan Sun Arena held 6,000 to 8,000 people – it's about 8,000 for basketball games, which is what I was referring to.Podcast NotesOn the closing of Four Seasons ski area in New YorkOn the new owners at Ragged and KillingtonOn Geoff Hatheway at Magic Mountain, VermontMy pods with Geoff are both a bit dated, but you can keep up with Magic by subscribing to Hatheway's Alpine Update emails, which is one of the most transparently honest ski area newsletters in America.On Wachusett's Clueless Construction UpdatesWell done, Stimpson:On other pods mentionedThe Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

WhoJimmy Ackerson, General Manager of Corralco, ChileRecorded onJuly 24, 2025About CorralcoClick here for a mountain stats overviewLocated in: Curacautín, Araucanía, ChileYear founded: 2003, by Enrique BascurPass affiliations: Indy Pass, Indy+ Pass – 2 days, no blackoutsBase elevation: 4,724 feet (1,440 meters)Summit elevation: 7,874 feet (2,400 meters) top of lifts; 9,400 feet (2,865 meters) hike-toVertical drop: 3,150 feet (960 meters) lift-served; 4,676 feet (1,425 meters) hike-toSkiable acres: 2,475 acres lift served; 4,448 acres (1,800 hectares), including hike-to terrainAverage annual snowfall: 354 inches (899 cm)Trail count: 34Lift count: 7 (1 high-speed quad, 1 double, 5 J-bars)Why I interviewed himThe Andes run the length of South America, 4,300 miles from the southern tip of Argentina north to Venezuela. It is the longest continental mountain range on Earth, nearly six times the length of the Alps and 1,300 miles longer than the Rockies. It is the highest mountain range outside of Asia, topping out at 22,841 feet on Mount Aconcagua, more than a mile higher than the tallest point in the Rockies (14,439-foot Mount Elbert) or Alps (15,772-foot Mont Blanc).So this ought to be one hell of a ski region, right? If the Alps house more than 500 ski areas and the Rockies several hundred, then the Andes ought to at least be in the triple digits?Surprisingly, no. Of the seven nations transected by the Andes, only Argentina and Chile host outdoor, lift-served ski areas. Between the two countries, I'm only able to assemble a list of 37 ski areas, 33 of which skiresort.info categorizes as “temporarily closed” – a designation the site typically reserves for outfits that have not operated over the past several seasons.For skiers hoping to live eternal winter by commuting to the Upside Down each May through October, this roster may be a bit of a record scratch. There just aren't that many ski areas in the Southern Hemisphere. Outside of South America, the balance – another few dozen total - sit in Australia and New Zealand, with scattered novelties such as Afriski lodged at the top of Lesotho. There are probably more ski areas in New England than there are south of the equator.That explains why the U.S.-based multimountain ski passes have been slow to move into the Southern Hemisphere – there isn't much there to move into. Ikon and Mountain Collective each have just one destination on the continent, and it's the same destination: Valle Nevado. Epic offers absolutely nothing in South America.Even with few options, Vail moved south a decade ago with its purchase of Perisher, Australia's largest ski area. That English-speaking nation was a logical first pass frontier, but the five Kangaroo resorts claimed by the Epic and Ikon passes are by far the five largest in the country, and they're a 45-year flight from America. New Zealand is similarly remote, with more but generally less-developed ski areas, and Ikon has established a small presence there.But South America remains mostly wide open, despite its obvious appeal to North Americans: the majesty of the Andes, the novelty of summer skiing, and direct flights with no major timezone hopping required. Mountain Capital Partners has dropped anchor in Chile, purchasing Valle Nevado in 2023, neighboring La Parva the following year, and bidding for also-neighboring El Colorado in 2025 (that sale is pending regulatory review).But perhaps it's time for a broader invasion. Last March, Indy Pass added Corralco as its first South American – and first Southern Hemisphere – ski area. That, as Ackerson and I discuss in the podcast, could be just the start of Indy's ambitions for a continent-spanning (or at least, Argentina- and Chile-spanning) resort network.So this is a good time to start getting to know Chilean skiing. And Ackerson, longtime head of the Chilean Ski Areas Association, former leader of Chilean giants Portillo and Valle Nevado, and a Connecticut-born transplant who has been living the upside-down life for more than 50 years, is probably better suited than anyone on the planet to give us that intro.What we talked aboutReverse ski seasons; why Corralco draws (and retains) so much more snow than any other ski area in Chile; no snowmaking; Corralco as training ground for national ski teams; the logistics of moving a high-speed quad from Holiday Valley, New York to the Chilean Andes; rebuilding a lift as a longer machine; how that lift transformed Corralco; new lift, new alignment; the business impact of replacing a double chair with a high-speed quad; how a dude who grew up in Connecticut with non-skiing parents ended up running a ski area in South America; Chile's allure; Portillo; Chilean skiing past and present; Corralco's founding and evolution; shrinking South American ski areas; Mountain Capital Partners (MCP) buying four more ski areas in Chile after purchasing Valle Nevado in 2023 and La Parva in 2024; the Americans are coming; why La Parva, Valle Nevado, and El Colorado “have to be consolidated” for the benefit of future skiing in Chile; MCP's impact on Chilean skiing so far; “the culture is very different here” both on the hill and off; MCP's challenges as they settle into Chilean skiing; why Corralco joined Indy Pass; a potential Indy Pass network in South America; and getting to Corralco from the U.S., from airplane to access road – “we have no switchbacks.”What I got wrong* In the intro, I said that it was the “heart of ski season in South America.” This was true when we recorded this conversation in July 2025. It's not true in January 2026, when the Chilean ski season is long over.* I said the highest peak in Chile only received a few inches of snow per year and didn't retain it, but I couldn't remember the name of the peak – it is 22,615-foot Ojos del Salado.* I gave new stats for Corralco's high-speed quad, but did not mention where those stats came from – my source was skiresort.info, which catalogues a 4,921-foot length and 1,148-foot vertical drop for the lift, both substantially longer than the 4,230-foot length and 688-foot vertical rise that Lift Blog documents for the antecedent Mardi Gras lift at Holiday Valley, New York. We discuss the logistics and mechanics of moving this machine from North to South America and extending it in the pod. Here are a few pics of this machine I took in New York in January 2022:Podcast NotesOn Corralco's evolving footprintCorralco is a new-ish ski area, at least insofar as public access goes. The 2008 trailmap shows a modest vertical drop served by surface lifts:But growth has been rapid, and by 2022, the ski area resembled modern Corralco, which is now an international training center for athletes:On Camp Jewel, ConnecticutAckerson learned to ski on a two-tow bump called Camp Jewell, a YMCA center in Connecticut. NELSAP has some fun info on this defunct ski area, including photos of what's left of the lifts.On Sigi GrottendorderAckerson's conduit to South American skiing came in the form of Austrian-born Sigi Grottendorfer, who led the ski schools at both Sugarbush, Vermont and Portillo, Chile. He passed away in 2023 – The Valley Reporter ran an obituary with more info on Grottendorfer's expansive and colorful life.On Chile “five years after the coup had occurred”We reference past political instability in Chile, referring to the 1973 coup that launched the military dictatorship of the notorious Augusto Pinochet. The nation transitioned back to democracy in 1990 and is considered safe and stable for tourists by the U.S. State Department.On PortilloWe discuss Portillo, a Chilean ski area whose capacity limits and weeklong ski-and-stay packages result in Windham-is-private-style (it's not) confusion. Skiers can visit Portillo on a day pass. Lift tickets are all of $68. Still, the hotel experience is, by all accounts, pretty rad. Here's the bump:On previous podcastsWe mention a few previous podcast guests who had parallels to Ackerson's story. Bogus Basin GM Brad Wilson also left skiing for several years to run a non-ski resort:Longtime Valle Nevado GM Ricardo Margolis appeared on this podcast in 2023:On the shrinking of Volcán Osorno and PillánI won't reset the entire history here, but I broke down the slow shrinkage of Volcán Osorno and Pillán ski areas when Mountain Capital Partners bid to purchase them last year:On Kamori Kankō buying HeavenlyFor a brief period, Japanese company Kamori Kankō owned Steamboat and Heavenly. The company sold both to American Skiing Company in 1997, and they eventually split owners, with Heavenly joining Vail's roster in 2002, and Steamboat now part of Alterra by way of Intrawest. Today, Kamori Kankō appears to operate five ski areas in Japan, all in Hokkaido, most notably Epic Pass partner Rusutsu:On MCP's free season passes for kids 12 and underOne pretty cool thing that Mountain Capital Partners has brought to Chile from its U.S. HQ is free season passes for kids 12 and under. It's pretty incredible:On Sugarbush Ackerson worked for a long time at Sugarbush, an Alterra staple and one of the best overall ski areas in New England. It's a fully modern resort, with the exception of the knockout Castle Rock terrain, which still spins a double chair on all-natural snow:On skiing El ColoradoWe discuss the insane, switchbacking access road up to El Colorado/La Parva/Valle Nevado from Santiago:The route up to Corralco is far more suited to mortals:The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

WhoRyan Brown, Director of Golf & Ski at The Mountaintop at Grand Geneva, WisconsinRecorded onJune 17, 2025About the Mountaintop at Grand GenevaClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Marcus HotelsLocated in: Lake Geneva, WisconsinYear founded: 1968Pass affiliations: NoneClosest neighboring U.S. ski areas: Alpine Valley (:23), Wilmot Mountain (:29), Crystal Ridge (:48), Alpine Hills Adventure Park (1:04)Base elevation: 847 feetSummit elevation: 962 feetVertical drop: 115 feetSkiable acres: 30Average annual snowfall: 34 inchesTrail count: 21 (41% beginner, 41% intermediate, 18% advanced)Lift count: 6 (3 doubles, 1 ropetow, 2 carpets)Why I interviewed himOf America's various mega-regions, the Midwest is the quietest about its history. It lacks the quaint-town Colonialism and Revolutionary pride of the self-satisfied East, the cowboy wildness and adobe earthiness of the West, the defiant resentment of the Lost Glory South. Our seventh-grade Michigan History class stapled together the state's timeline mostly as a series of French explorers passing through on their way to somewhere more interesting. They were followed by a wave of industrial loggers who mowed the primeval forests into pancakes. Then the factories showed up. And so the state's legacy was framed not as one of political or cultural or military primacy, but of brand, the place that stamped out Chevys and Fords by the tens of millions.To understand the Midwest, then, we must look for what's permanent. The land itself won't do. It's mostly soil, mostly flat. Great for farming, bad for vistas. Dirt doesn't speak to the soul like rock, like mountains. What humans built doesn't tell us a much better story. Everything in the Midwest feels too new to conceal ghosts. The largest cities rose late, were destroyed in turn by fires and freeways, eventually recharged with arenas and glass-walled buildings that fail to echo or honor the past. Nothing lasts: the Detroit Pistons built the Palace of Auburn Hills in 1988 and developers demolished it 32 years later; the Detroit Lions (and, for a time, the Pistons) played at the Pontiac Silverdome, a titanic, 82,600-spectator stadium that opened in 1976 and came down in 2013 (37 years old). History seemed to bypass the region, corralling the major wars to the east and shooing the natural disasters to the west and south. Even shipwrecks lose their doubloons-and-antique-cannons romance in the Midwest: the Great Lakes most famous downed vessel, the SS Edmund Fitzgerald, sank into Lake Superior in 1975. Her cargo was 26,535 tons of taconite ore pellets. A sad story, but not exactly the sinking of the Titanic.Our Midwest ancestors did leave us one legacy that no one has yet demolished: names. Place names are perhaps the best cultural relics of the various peoples who occupied this land since the glaciers retreated 12,000-ish years ago. Thousands of Midwest cities, towns, and counties carry Native American names. “Michigan” is derived from the Algonquin “Mishigamaw,” meaning “big lake”; “Minnesota” from the Sioux word meaning “cloudy water.” The legacies of French explorers and missionaries live on in “Detroit” (French for “strait”), “Marquette” (17th century French missionary Jacques Marquette), and “Eau Claire” (“clear water”).But one global immigration funnel dominated what became the modern Midwest: 50 percent of Wisconsin's population descends from German, Nordic, or Scandinavian countries, who arrived in waves from the Colonial era through the early 1900s. The surnames are everywhere: Schmitz and Meyer and Webber and Schultz and Olson and Hanson. But these Old-Worlders came a bit late to name the cities and towns. So they named what they built instead. And they built a lot of ski areas. Ten of Wisconsin's 34 ski areas carry names evocative of Europe's cold regions, Scandinavia and the Alps:I wonder what it must have been like, in 18-something-or-other, to leave a place where the Alps stood high on the horizon, where your family had lived in the same stone house for centuries, and sail for God knows how many weeks or months across an ocean, and slow roll overland by oxen cart or whatever they moved about in back then, and at the end of this great journey find yourself in… Wisconsin? They would have likely been unprepared for the landscape aesthetic. Tourism is a modern invention. “The elite of ancient Egypt spent their fortunes building pyramids and having their corpses mummified, but none of them thought of going shopping in Babylon or taking a skiing holiday in Phoenicia [partly in present-day Lebanon, which is home to as many as seven ski areas],” Yuval Noah Harari writes in Sapiens his 2015 “brief history of humankind.” Imagine old Friedrich, who had never left Bavaria, reconstituting his world in the hillocks and flats of the Midwest.Nothing against Wisconsin, but fast-forward 200 years, when the robots can give us a side-by-side of the upper Midwest and the European Alps, and it's pretty clear why one is a global tourist destination and the other is known mostly as a place that makes a lot of cheese. And well you can imagine why Friedrich might want to summon a little bit of the old country to the texture of his life in the form of a ski area name. That these two worlds - the glorious Alps and humble Wisconsin skiing - overlap, even in a handful of place names, suggests a yearning for a life abandoned, a natural act of pining by a species that was not built to move their life across timezones.This is not a perfect analysis. Most – perhaps none – of these ski areas was founded by actual immigrants, but by their descendants. The Germanic languages spoken by these immigrant waves did not survive assimilation. But these little cultural tokens did. The aura of ancestral place endured when even language fell away. These little ski areas honor that.And by injecting grandiosity into the everyday, they do something else. In coloring some of the world's most compact ski centers with the aura of some of its most iconic, their founders left us a message: these ski areas, humble as they are, matter. They fuse us to the past and they fuse us to the majesty of the up-high, prove to us that skiing is worth doing anywhere that it can be done, ensure that the ability to move like that and to feel the things that movement makes you feel are not exclusive realms fenced into the clouds, somewhere beyond means and imagination.Which brings us to Grand Geneva, a ski area name that evokes the great Swiss gateway city to the Alps. Too bad reality rarely matches up with the easiest narrative. The resort draws its name from the nearby town of Lake Geneva, which a 19th-century surveyor named not after the Swiss city, but after Geneva, New York, a city (that is apparently named after Geneva, Switzerland), on the shores of Seneca Lake, the largest of the state's 11 finger lakes. Regardless, the lofty name was the fifth choice for a ski area originally called “Indian Knob.” That lasted three years, until the ski area shuttered and re-opened as the venerable Playboy Ski Area in 1968. More regrettable names followed – Americana Resort from 1982 to '93, Hotdog Mountain from 1992 to '94 – before going with the most obvious and least-questionable name, though its official moniker, “The Mountaintop at Grand Geneva” is one of the more awkward names in American skiing.None of which explains the principal question of this sector: why I interviewed Mr. Brown. Well, I skied a bunch of Milwaukee bumps on my drive up to Bohemia from Chicago last year, this was one of them, and I thought it was a cute little place. I also wondered how, with its small-even-for-Wisconsin vertical drop and antique lift collection, the place had endured in a state littered with abandoned ski areas. Consider it another entry into my ongoing investigation into why the ski areas that you would not always expect to make it are often the ones that do.What we talked aboutFighting the backyard effect – “our customer base – they don't really know” that the ski areas are making snow; a Chicago-Milwaukee-Madison bullseye; competing against the Vail-owned mountain to the south and the high-speed-laced ski area to the north; a golf resort with a ski area tacked on; “you don't need a big hill to have a great park”; brutal Midwest winters and the escape of skiing; I attempt to talk about golf again and we're probably done with that for a while; Boyne Resorts as a “top golf destination”; why Grand Geneva moved its terrain park; whether the backside park could re-open; “we've got some major snowmaking in the works”; potential lift upgrades; no bars on the lifts; the ever-tradeoff between terrain parks and beginner terrain; the ski area's history as a Playboy Club and how the ski hill survived into the modern era; how the resort moves skiers to the hill with hundreds of rooms and none of them on the trails; thoughts on Indy Pass; and Lake Geneva lake life.What I got wrongWe recorded this conversation prior to Sunburst's joining Indy Pass, so I didn't mention the resort when discussing Wisconsin ski areas on the product.Podcast NotesOn the worst season in the history of the MidwestI just covered this in the article that accompanied the podcast on Treetops, Michigan, but I'll summarize it this way: the 2023-24 ski season almost broke the Midwest. Fortunately, last winter was better, and this year is off to a banging start.On steep terrain beneath lift AI just thought this was a really unexpected and cool angle for such a little hill. On the Playboy ClubFrom SKI magazine, December 1969:It is always interesting when giants merge. Last winter Playboy magazine (5.5 million readers) and the Playboy Club (19 swinging nightclubs from Hawaii to New York to Jamaica, with 100,000 card-carrying members) in effect joined the sport of skiing, which is also a large, but less formal, structure of 3.5 million lift-ticket-carrying members. The resulting conglomerate was the Lake Geneva Playboy Club-Hotel, Playboy's ski resort on the rolling plains of Wisconsin.The Playboy Club people must have borrowed the idea of their costumed Bunny Waitress from the snow bunny of skiing fame, and since Playboy and skiing both manifestly devote themselves to the pleasures of the body, some sort of merger was inevitable. Out of this union, obviously, issued the Ultimate Ski Bunny – one able to ski as well as sport the scanty Bunny costume to lustrous perfection.That's a bit different from how the resort positions its ski facilities today:Enjoy southern Wisconsin's gem - our skiing and snow resort in the countryside of Lake Geneva, with the best ski hills in Wisconsin. The Mountain Top at Grand Geneva Resort & Spa boasts 20 downhill ski runs and terrain designed for all ages, groups and abilities, making us one of the best ski resorts in Wisconsin. Just an hour from Milwaukee and Chicago, our ski resort in Lake Geneva is close enough to home for convenience, but far enough for you and your family to have an adventure. Our ultimate skier's getaway offers snowmaking abilities that allow our ski resort to stay open even when there is no snow falling.The Mountain Top offers ski and snow accommodations, such as trolley transportation available from guest rooms at Grand Geneva and Timber Ridge Lodge, three chairlifts, two carpet lifts, a six-acre terrain park, excellent group rates, food and drinks at Leinenkugel's Mountain Top Lodge and even night skiing. We have more than just skiing! Enjoy Lake Geneva sledding, snowshoeing and cross-country skiing too. Truly something for everyone at The Mountain Top ski resort in Lake Geneva. No ski equipment? No problem with the Learn to Ride rentals. Come experience The Mountain Top at Grand Geneva and enjoy the best skiing around Lake Geneva, Wisconsin.On lost Wisconsin and Midwest ski areasThe Midwest Lost Ski Areas Project counts 129 lost ski areas in Wisconsin. I've yet to order these Big Dumb Chart-style, but there are lots of cool links in here that can easily devour your day.The Storm explores the world of North American lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

WhoMike Giorgio, Vice President and General Manager of Stowe Mountain, VermontRecorded onOctober 8, 2025About StoweClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Vail Resorts, which also owns:Located in: Stowe, VermontYear founded: 1934Pass affiliations:* Epic Pass: unlimited access* Epic Local Pass: unlimited access with holiday blackouts* Epic Northeast Value Pass: 10 days with holiday blackouts* Epic Northeast Midweek Pass: 5 midweek days with holiday blackouts* Access on Epic Day Pass All and 32 Resort tiers* Ski Vermont 4 Pass – up to one day, with blackouts* Ski Vermont Fifth Grade Passport – 3 days, with blackoutsClosest neighboring U.S. ski areas: Smugglers' Notch (ski-to or 40-ish-minute drive in winter, when route 108 is closed over the notch), Bolton Valley (:45), Cochran's (:50), Mad River Glen (:55), Sugarbush (:56)Base elevation: 1,265 feet (at Toll House double)Summit elevation: 3,625 feet (top of the gondola), 4,395 feet at top of Mt. MansfieldVertical drop: 2,360 feet lift-served, 3,130 feet hike-toSkiable acres: 485Average annual snowfall: 314 inchesTrail count: 116 (16% beginner, 55% intermediate, 29% advanced)Lift count: 12 (1 eight-passenger gondola, 1 six-passenger gondola, 1 six-pack, 3 high-speed quads, 1 fixed-grip quad, 1 triple, 2 doubles, 2 carpets)Why I interviewed himThere is no Aspen of the East, but if I had to choose an Aspen of the East, it would be Stowe. And not just because Aspen Mountain and Stowe offer a similar fierce-down, with top-to-bottom fall-line zippers and bumpy-bumps spliced by massive glade pockets. Not just because each ski area rises near the far end of densely bunched resorts that the skier must drive past to reach them. Not just because the towns are similarly insular and expensive and tucked away. Not just because the wintertime highway ends at both places, an anachronistic act of surrender to nature from a mechanized world accustomed to fencing out the seasons. And not just because each is a cultural stand-in for mechanized skiing in a brand-obsessed, half-snowy nation that hates snow and is mostly filled with non-skiers who know nothing about the activity other than the fact that it exists. Everyone knows about Aspen and Stowe even if they'll never ski, in the same way that everyone knows about LeBron James even if they've never watched basketball.All of that would be sufficient to make the Stowe-is-Aspen-East argument. But the core identity parallel is one that threads all these tensions while defying their assumed outcome. Consider the remoteness of 1934 Stowe and 1947 Aspen, two mountains in the pre-snowmaking, pre-interstate era, where cutting a ski area only made sense because that's where it snowed the most. Both grew in similar fashion. First slowly toward the summit with surface lifts and mile-long single chairs crawling up the incline. Then double chairs and gondolas and snowguns and detachable chairlifts. A ski area for the town evolves into a ski area for the world. Hotels a la luxe at the base, traffic backed up to the interstate, corporate owners and $261 lift tickets.That sounds like a formula for a ruined world. But Stowe the ski area, like Aspen Mountain the ski area, has never lost its wild soul. Even buffed out and six-pack equipped and Epic Pass-enabled, Stowe remains a hell of a mountain, one of the best in New England, one of my favorite anywhere. With its monster snowfalls, its endless and perfectly spaced glades, its never-groomed expert zones, its sprawling footprint tucked beneath the Mansfield summit, its direct access to rugged and forbidding backcountry, Stowe, perhaps the most western-like mountain in the East, remains a skier's mountain, a fierce and humbling proving ground, an any-skier's destination not because of its trimmings, but because of the Christmas tree itself.Still, Stowe will never be Aspen, because Stowe does not sit at 8,000 feet and Stowe does not have three accessory ski areas and Stowe the Town does not grid from the lift base like Aspen the Town but rather lies eight miles down the road. Also Stowe is owned by Vail Resorts, and can you just imagine? But in a cultural moment that assumes ski area ruination-by-the-consolidation-modernization-mega-passification axis-of-mainstreaming, Aspen and Stowe tell mirrored versions of a more nuanced story. Two ski areas, skinned in the digital-mechanical infrastructure that modernity demands, able to at once accommodate the modern skier and the ancient mountain, with all of its quirks and character. All of its amazing skiing.What we talked aboutStowe the Legend; Vail Resorts' leadership carousel; ascending to ski area leadership without on-mountain experience; Mount Brighton, Michigan and Midwest skiing; struggles at Paoli Peaks, Indiana; how the Sunrise six-pack upgrade of the old Mountain triple changed the mountain; whether the Four Runner quad could ever become a six-pack; considering the future of the Lookout Double and Mansfield Gondola; who owns the land in and around the ski area; whether Stowe has terrain expansion potential; the proposed Smugglers' Notch gondola connection and whether Vail would ever buy Smuggs; “you just don't understand how much is here until you're here”; why Stowe only claims 485 acres of skiable terrain; protecting the Front Four; extending Stowe's season last spring; snowmaking in a snowbelt; the impact and future of paid parking; on-mountain bed-base potential; Epic Friend 50 percent off lift tickets; and Stowe locals and the Epic Pass.What I got wrongOn detailsI noted that one of my favorite runs was not a marked run at all: the terrain beneath the Lookout double chair. In fact, most of the trail beneath this mile-plus-long lift is a market run called, uh, “Lookout.” So I stand corrected. However, the trailmap makes this full-throttle, narrow bumper – which feels like skiing on a rising tide – look wide, peaceful, and groomable. It is none of those things, at least for its first third or so.On skiable acres* I said that Killington claimed “like 1,600 acres” of terrain – the exact claimed number is 1,509 acres.* I said that Mad River Glen claimed far fewer skiable acres than it probably could, but I was thinking of an out-of-date stat. The mountain claims just 115 acres of trails – basically nothing for a 2,000-vertical-foot mountain, but also “800 acres of tree-skiing access.” The number listed on the Pass Smasher Deluxe is 915 acres.On season closingsI intimated that Stowe had always closed the third weekend in April. That appears to be mostly true for the past two-ish decades, which is as far back as New England Ski History has records. The mountain did push late once, however, in 2007, and closed early during the horrible no-snow winter of 2011-12 (April 1), and the Covid-is-here-to-kill-us-all shutdown of 2020 (March 14).On doing better prepI asked whether Stowe had considered making its commuter bus free, but it, um, already is. That's called Reeserch, Folks.On lift ticket ratesI claimed that Stowe's top lift ticket price would drop from $239 last year to $235 this coming season, but that's inaccurate. Upon further review, the peak walk-up rate appears to be increasing to $261 this coming winter:Which means Vail's record of cranking Stowe lift ticket rates up remains consistent:On opening hoursI said that the lifts at Stowe sometimes opened at “7:00 or 7:30,” but the earliest ski lift currently opens at 8:00 most mornings (the Over Easy transit gondola opens at 7:30). The Fourrunner quad used to open at 7:30 a.m. on weekends and holidays. I'm not sure when mountain ops changed that. Here's the lift schedule clipped from the circa 2018 trailmap:On Mount Brighton, Michigan's supposed trashheap legacyI'd read somewhere, sometime, that Mount Brighton had been built on dirt moved to make way for Interstate 96, which bores across the state about a half mile north of the ski area. The timelines match, as this section of I-96 was built between 1956 and '57, just before Brighton opened in 1960. This circa 1962 article from The Livingston Post, a local paper, fails to mention the source of the dirt, leaving me uncertain as to whether or not the hill is related to the highway:Why you should ski StoweFrom my April 10 visit last winter, just cruising mellow, low-angle glades nearly to the base:I mean, the place is just:I love it, Man. My top five New England mountains, in no particular order, are Sugarbush, Stowe, Jay, Smuggs, and Sugarloaf. What's best on any given day depends on conditions and crowding, but if you only plan to ski the East once, that's your list.Podcast NotesOn Stowe being the last 1,000-plus-vertical-foot Vermont ski area that I featured on the podYou can view the full podcast catalogue here. But here are the past Vermont eps:* Killington & Pico – 2019 | 2023 | 2025* Stratton 2024* Okemo 2023* Middlebury Snowbowl 2023* Mount Snow 2020 | 2023* Bromley 2022* Jay Peak 2022 | 2020* Smugglers' Notch 2021* Bolton Valley 2021* Hermitage Club 2020* Sugarbush 2020 with current president John Hammond | 2020 with past owner Win Smith* Mad River Glen 2020* Magic Mountain 2019 | 2020* Burke 2019On Stowe having “peers, but no betters” in New EnglandWhile Stowe doesn't stand out in any one particular statistical category, the whole of the place stacks up really well to the rest of New England - here's a breakdown of the 63 public ski areas that spin chairlifts across the six-state region:On the Front Four ski runsThe “Front Four” are as synonymous with Stowe as the Back Bowls are with Vail Mountain or Corbet's Couloir is with Jackson Hole. These Stowe trails are steep, narrow, double-plus-fall-line bangers that, along with Castlerock at Sugarbush and Paradise at Mad River Glen, are among the most challenging runs in New England.The problem is determining which of the double-blacks spiderwebbing off the top of Fourrunner are part of the Front Four. Officially, the designation has always bucketed National, Liftline, Goat, and Starr together, but Bypass, Haychute, and Lookout could sub in most days. Credit to Stowe for keeping these wild trails intact for going on a century, but what I said about them “not being for the masses” on the podcast wasn't quite accurate, as the lower portions of many - especially Liftline - are wide, often groomed, and not particularly treacherous. The best end-to-end trail is Goat, which is insanely steep and narrow up top. Here's part of Goat's middle-to-lower section, which is mellower but a good portrayal of New England bumpy, exposed-dirt-and-rocks gnar, especially at the :19 mark:The most glorious ego boost (or ego check) is the few hundred vertical feet of Liftline directly below Fourrunner. Sound on for scrapey-scrape:When the cut trails get icy, you can duck into the adjacent glades, most of which are unmarked but skiable. Here, I bailed into the trees skier's left of Starr to escape the ice rink:On Vail Resorts' leadership shufflesTwelve of Vail's 37 North American ski areas began the 2024-25 ski season with a different leader than they ended the 2023-24 ski season with. This included five of the company's New England resorts, including Stowe. Giorgio, in fact, became the ski area's third general manager in three winters, and the fourth since Vail acquired the ski area in 2017. I asked Giorgio about this, as a follow up to a similar set of questions I'd laid out for Vail Resorts CEO Rob Katz in August:I may be overthinking this, but check this out: between 2017 and 2024, Vail Resorts changed leadership at its North American ski areas more than 70 times - the yellow boxes below mark a new president-general-manager equivalent (red boxes indicate that Vail did not yet own the ski area):To reset my thinking here: I can't say that this constant leadership shuffle is inherently dysfunctional, and most Vail Resorts employees I speak with appreciate the company's upward-mobility culture. And I consistently find Vail's mountain leaders - dozens of whom I have hosted on this podcast - to be smart, earnest, and caring. However, it's hard to imagine that the constant turnover in top management isn't at least somewhat related to Vail Resorts' on-the-ground reputational issues, truncated seasons at non-core ski areas (see Paoli Peaks section below), and general sense that the company's arc of investment bends toward its destination resorts.On Peak ResortsVail purchased all of Peak Resorts, including Mount Snow, where Giorgio worked, in 2019. Here's that company's growth timeline:On Vernon Valley-Great GorgeThe ski area now known as Mountain Creek was Vernon Valley-Great Gorge until 1997. Anyone who grew up in the area still calls the joint by its legacy name.On Paoli Peaks versus Perfect NorthMy hope is that if I complain enough about Paoli Peaks, Vail will either invest enough in snowmaking to tranform it into a functional ski area or sell it. Here are the differences between Paoli's season lengths since 2013 as compared to Perfect North, its competitor that is the only other active ski area in the state:What explains this longstanding disparity, which certainly predates Vail's 2019 acquisition of the ski area? Paoli does sit southwest of Perfect North, but its base is 200 feet higher (600 feet, versus 400 for Perfect), so elevation doesn't explain it. Perfect does benefit from a valley location, which, longtime GM Jonathan Davis told me a few years back, locks in the cold air and supercharges snowmaking. The simplest answer, however, is probably the correct one: Perfect North has built one of the most impressive snowmaking systems on the planet, and they use it aggressively, cranking more than 200 guns at once. At peak operations, Perfect can transform from green grass to skiable terrain in just a couple of days.So yes, Perfect has always been a better operation than Paoli. But check this out: Paoli's performance as compared to Perfect's has been considerably worse in the five full seasons of Vail Resorts' ownership (excluding 2019-20), than in the six seasons before, with Perfect besting Paoli to open by an average of 21 days before Vail arrived, and by 31 days after. Perfect's seasons lasted an average of 25 days longer than Paoli's before Vail arrived, and 38 days longer after:Yes, Paoli is a uniquely challenged ski area, but I'm confident that someone can do a better job running this place than Vail has been doing since 2019. Certainly, that someone could be Vail, which has the resources and institutional knowledge to transform this, or any ski area, into a center of SnoSportSkiing excellence. So far, however, they have declined to do so, and I keep thinking of what Davis, Perfect North's longtime GM, said on the pod in 2022: “If Vail doesn't want [its ski areas in Indiana and Ohio], we'll take them!”On the 2022 Sunrise Six replacement for the tripleIn 2022, Stowe replaced the Mountain triple chair, which sat up a flight of steep steps from the parking lot, with the at-grade Sunrise six-pack. It was the kind of big-time lift upgrade that transforms the experience of an entire ski area for everyone, whether they use the new lift or not, by pulling skiers toward a huge pod of underutilized terrain and away from longtime alpha lifts Fourrunner and the Mansfield Gondola.On Fourrunner as a vert machineStowe's Fourruner high-speed quad is one of the most incredible lifts in American skiing, a lightspeed-fast base-to-summit, 2,040-vertical-foot monster with direct access to some of the best terrain west of A-Basin.The highest vert total in my 54-day 2024-25 ski season came (largely) courtesy of this lift - and I only skied five-and-a-half hours:On Stowe-Smuggs proximity and the proposed gondola and a long drive in winterAdventurous skiers can skin or hike across the top of Stowe's Spruce Peak and ski down into the Smugglers' Notch ski area. An official ski trail once connected them, and Smuggs proposed a gondola connector a couple of years back. If Vail were to purchase sprawling Smuggs, a Canyons-Park City mega-connection – while improbable given local environmental lobbies -could instantly transform Stowe into one of the largest ski areas in the East.On Jay Peak's big snowmaking upgradesI referenced big offseason snowmaking upgrades for water-challenged (but natural-snow blessed), Jay Peak. I was referring to this:This season brings an over $1.5M snowmaking upgrade that's less about muscle and more about brains. We've added 49 brand new HKD Low E air-water snowmaking guns—32 on Queen's Highway and 17 on Perry Merrill. These aren't your drag-'em-out, hook-'em-up, hope-it's-cold-enough kind of guns. They're fixed in place for the season and far more efficient, using much less compressed air than the ones they replace. Translation: better snow, less energy.On Perry Merrill, things get even slicker. We've installed HKD Klik automated hydrants that come with built-in weather stations. The second temps hit 28 degrees wetbulb, these hydrants kick on automatically and adjust the flow as the mercury drops. No waiting, no guesswork, no scrambling the crew. The end result? Those key connecting trails between Tramside and Stateside get covered faster, which means you can ski from one side to the other—or straight back to your condo—without having to hop on a shuttle with your boots still buckled. …It's all part of a bigger 10-year snowmaking plan we're rolling out—more automation, better efficiency, and ultimately, better snow for you to ski and ride on.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us.WhoLonie Glieberman, Founder, Owner, & President of Mount Bohemia, MichiganRecorded onNovember 19, 2025About Mount BohemiaClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Lonie GliebermanLocated in: Lac La Belle, MichiganYear founded: 2000, by LoniePass affiliations: NoneReciprocal partners: Boho has developed one of the strongest reciprocal pass programs in the nation, with lift tickets to 34 partner mountains. To protect the mountain's more distant partners from local ticket-hackers, those ski areas typically exclude in-state and border-state residents from the freebies. Here's the map:And here's the Big Dumb Storm Chart detailing each mountain and its Boho access:Closest neighboring ski areas: Mont Ripley (:50)Base elevation: 624 feetSummit elevation: 1,522 feetVertical drop: 898 feetSkiable acres: 585Average annual snowfall: 273 inchesTrail count: It's hard to say exactly, as Boho adds new trails every year, and its map is one of the more confusing ones in American skiing, both as you try analyzing it on this screen, and as you're actually navigating the mountain. My advice is to not try too hard to make the trailmap make sense. Everything is skiable with enough snow, and no matter what, you're going to end up back at one of the two chairlifts or the road, where a shuttlebus will come along within a few minutes.Lift count: 2 (1 triple, 1 double)Why I interviewed himFor those of us who lived through a certain version of America, Mount Bohemia is a fever dream, an impossible thing, a bantered-about-with-friends-in-a-basement-rec-room-idea that could never possibly be. This is because we grew up in a world in which such niche-cool things never happened. Before the internet spilled from the academic-military fringe into the mainstream around 1996, We The Commoners fed our brains with a subsistence diet of information meted out by institutional media gatekeepers. What I mean by “gatekeepers” is the limited number of enterprises who could afford the broadcast licenses, printing presses, editorial staffs, and building and technology infrastructure that for decades tethered news and information to costly distribution mechanisms.In some ways this was a better and more reliable world: vetted, edited, fact-checked. Even ostensibly niche media – the Electronic Gaming Monthly and Nintendo Power magazines that I devoured monthly – emerged from this cubicle-in-an-office-tower Process that guaranteed a sober, reality-based information exchange.But this professionalized, high-cost-of-entry, let's-get-Bob's-sign-off-before-we-run-this, don't-piss-off-the-advertisers world limited options, which in turn limited imaginations – or at least limited the real-world risks anyone with money was willing to take to create something different. We had four national television networks and a couple dozen cable channels and one or two local newspapers and three or four national magazines devoted to niche pursuits like skiing. We had bookstores and libraries and the strange, ephemeral world of radio. We had titanic, impossible-to-imagine-now big-box chain stores ordering the world's music and movies into labelled bins, from which shoppers could hope – by properly interpreting content from box-design flare or maybe just by luck – to pluck some soul-altering novelty.There was little novelty. Or at least, not much that didn't feel like a slightly different version of something you'd already consumed. Everything, no matter how subversive its skin, had to appeal to the masses, whose money was required to support the enterprise of content creation. Pseudo-rebel networks such as ESPN and MTV quickly built global brands by applying the established institutional framework of network television to the mainstream-but-information-poor cultural centerpieces of sports and music.This cultural sameness expressed itself not just in media, but in every part of life: America's brand-name sprawl-ture (sprawl culture) of restaurants and clothing stores and home décor emporia; its stuff-freeways-through-downtown ruining of our great cities; its three car companies stamping out nondescript sedans by the millions.Skiing has long acted as a rebel's escape from staid American culture, but it has also been hemmed in by it. Yes, said Skiing Incorporated circa 1992, we can allow a photo of some fellow jumping off a cliff if it helps convince Nabisco Bob fly his family out to Colorado for New Year's, so long as his family is at no risk of actually locating any cliffs to jump off of upon arrival. After all, 1992 Bob has no meaningful outlet through which to highlight this advertising-experience disconnect. The internet broke this whole system. Everywhere, for everything. If I wanted, say, a Detroit Pistons hoodie in 1995, I had to drive to a dozen stores and choose the least-bad version from the three places that stocked them. Today I have far more choice at far less hassle: I can browse hundreds of designs online without leaving the house. Same for office furniture or shoes or litterboxes or laundry baskets or cars. And especially for media and information. Consumer choice is greater not only because the internet eliminated distance, but also because it largely eliminated the enormous costs required to actualize a tangible thing from the imagination.There were trade-offs, of course. Our current version of reality has too many options, too many poorly made products, too much bad information. But the internet did a really good job of democratizing preferences and uniting dispersed communities around niche interests. Yes, this means that a global community of morons can assemble over their shared belief that the planet is flat, but it also means that legions of Star Wars or Marvel Comics or football obsessives can unite to demand more of these specific things. I don't think it's a coincidence that the dormant Star Wars and Marvel franchises rebooted in spectacular, omnipresent fashion within a decade of the .com era's dawn.The trajectory was slightly different in skiing. The big-name ski areas today are largely the same set of big-name ski areas that we had 30 years ago, at least in America (Canada is a very different story). But what the internet helped bring to skiing was an awareness that the desire for turns outside of groomed runs was not the hyper-specific desire of the most dedicated, living-in-a-campervan-with-their-dog skiers, but a relatively mainstream preference. Established ski areas adapted, adding glades and terrain parks and ungroomed zones. The major ski areas of 2025 are far more interesting versions of the ski areas that existed under the same names in 1995.Dramatic and welcome as these additions were, they were just additions. No ski area completely reversed itself and shut out the mainstream skier. No one stopped grooming or eliminated their ski school or stopped renting gear. But they did act as something of a proof-of-concept for minimalist ski areas that would come online later, including avy-gear-required, no-grooming Silverton, Colorado in 2001, and, at the tip-top of the American Midwest, in a place too remote for anyone other than industrial mining interests to bother with, the ungroomed, snowmaking-free Mount Bohemia.I can't draw a direct line between the advent of the commercial internet and the rise of Mount Bohemia as a successful niche business within a niche industry. But I find it hard to imagine one without the other. The pre-internet world, the one that gave us shopping malls and laugh-track sitcoms and standard manual transmissions, lacked the institutional imagination to actualize skiing's most dynamic elements in the form of a wild and remote pilgrimage site. Once the internet ordered fringe freeskiing sentiments into a mainstream coalition, the notion of an extreme ski area seemed inevitable. And Bohemia, without a basically free global megaphone to spread word of its improbable existence, would struggle to establish itself in a ski industry that dismissed the concept as idiotic and with a national ski media that considered the Midwest irrelevant.Even with the internet, Boho took a while to catch on, as Lonie detailed in his first podcast appearance three years ago. It probably took the mainstreaming of social media, starting around 2008, to really amp up the online echo-sphere and help skiers understand this gladed, lake-effect-bombed kingdom at the end of the world.Whatever drove Boho's success, that success happened. This is a good, stable business that proved that ski areas do not have to cater to all skiers to be viable. But those of us who wanted Bohemia before it existed still have a hard time believing that it does. Like superhero movies or video-calls or energy drinks that aren't coffee, Boho is a thing we could, in the ‘80s and early ‘90s, easily imagine but just as easily dismiss as fantasy.Fortunately, our modern age of invention and experimentation includes plenty of people who dismiss the dismissers, who see things that don't exist yet and bring them into our world. And one of the best contributions to skiing to emerge from this age is Mount Bohemia.What we talked aboutSeason pass price and access changes; lifetime and two-year season passes; a Disney-ski comparison that isn't negative; when your day ticket costs as much as your season pass; Lonie's dog makes a cameo; not selling lift tickets on Saturdays; “too many companies are busy building a brand that no one will hate, versus a brand that someone will love”; why it's OK to have some people be angry with you; UP skiing's existential challenge; skiing's vibe shift from competition to complementary culture; the Midwest's advanced-skier problem; Boho's season pass reciprocal program; why ski areas survive; the Keweenaw snow stake and Boho's snowfall history; recent triple chair improvements and why Boho didn't fully replace the chair – “it's basically a brand-new chairlift”; a novel idea for Boho's next new chairlift; the Nordic spa; proposed rezoning drama; housing at the end of the world; could Mount Bohemia have a Mad River Glen co-op-style future?; why the pass deadline really is the pass deadline; and Mount Bohemia TV.What I got wrong* I said that Boho's one-day lift ticket was “$89 or $92” last time Lonie joined me on the pod, in fall, 2022. The one-day cost for the 2022-23 ski season was $87.* I said that Powder Mountain, Utah, may extend their no-lift-ticket-sales-on-Saturdays-and-Sundays-in-February policy, which the mountain rolled out last year, to other dates, but their sales calendar shows just eight restricted dates (one of which is Sunday, March 1), which is the same number as last winter.Why you should ski Mount BohemiaI can't add anything useful to this bit that I wrote a few months back:Or didn't say three years ago, around my first Boho pod:Podcast NotesOn Boho's season passOn Lonie's LibraryA Boho podcast will always come loaded with some Lonie Library recommendations. In this episode, we get The Power of Cult Branding by Mattew W. Ragas and Bolivar J. Bueno and The 22 Immutable Laws of Branding by Al Ries and Laura Ries.On Raising Cane'sLonie tells us about a restaurant called Raising Cane's that sells nothing but chicken fingers. Because I have this weird way of sometimes not noticing super-obvious things, I'd never heard of the place. But apparently they have 900-ish locations, including several here in NYC. I'm sure you already know this.On Jimmy BuffettThen again I'm sometimes overly attuned to things that I think everyone knows about, like Jimmy Buffett. Probably most people are aware of his Margaritaville-headlined music catalog, but perhaps not the Boomers-Gone-Wild Parrothead energy of his concerts, which were mass demonstrations of a uniquely American weirdness that's impossible to believe in unless you see it:I don't know if I'd classify this spectacle as sports for people who don't like sports or anthropological proof that mass coordinated niche crowd-dancing predates the advent of TikTok, but I hope this video reaches the aliens first and they decide not to bother.On “when we spoke in Milwaukee”This was the second time I've interviewed Lonie recently. The first was in front of an audience at the Snowvana ski show in Milwaukee last month. We did record that session, and it was different enough from this pod to justify releasing – I just don't have a timeline on when I'll do that yet. Here's the preview article that outlined the event:On Lonie operating the Porcupine Mountains ski areaI guess you can make anything look rad. Porcupine Mountains ski area, as presented today under management of the State of Michigan's Department of Natural Resources:The same ski area under Lonie's management, circa 2011:On the owner of Song and Labrador, New York buying and closing nearby Toggenburg ski areaOn Indy's fight with Ski CooperI wrote two stories on this, each of which subtracted five years from my life. The first:The follow-up:On Snow Snake, Apple Mountain, and Mott Mountain ski areasThese three Mid-Michigan ski areas were so similar it was frightening – the only thing I can conclude from the fact that Snow Snake is the only one left is that management trumps pretty much everything when it comes to which ski areas survive:On Crystal Mountain, Michigan versus Sugar Loaf, MichiganI noted that 1995 Stu viewed Sugar Loaf as a “more interesting” ski area than contemporary Crystal. It's important to note that this was pre-expansion Crystal, before the ski area doubled in size with backside terrain. Here are the Crystal versus Sugar Loaf trailmaps of that era:I discussed all of this with Crystal CEO John Melcher last year:On Thunder Mountain and Walloon HillsLonie mentions two additional lost Michigan ski areas: Thunder Mountain and Walloon Hills. The latter, while stripped of its chairlifts, still operates as a nonprofit called Challenge Mountain. Here's what it looked like just before shuttering as a public ski area in 1978:The responsible party here was nearby Boyne, which bought both Walloon and Thunder in 1967. They closed the latter in 1984:The company now known as Boyne Resorts purchased a total of four Michigan ski areas after Everett Kircher founded Boyne Mountain in 1948, starting with The Highlands in 1963. That ski area remains open, but Boyne also owned the 436-vertical foot ski area alternately known as “Barn Mountain” and “Avalanche Peak” from 1972 to '77. I can't find a trailmap of this one, but here's Boyne's consolidation history:On Nub's Nob and The HighlandsWhen I say that Nub's Nob and Boyne's Highlands ski area are right across the street from each other, I mean they really are:Both are excellent ski areas - two of the best in the entire Midwest.On Granite Peak's evolution under Midwest Family Ski ResortsI've written about this a lot, but check out Granite Peak AKA “Rib Mountain” before the company now known as Midwest Family Ski Resorts purchased it in 2000:And today:And it's just like “what you're allowed to do that?”On up-and-over chairliftsBohemia may replace its double chair with a rare up-and-over machine, which would extend along the current line to the summit, and then continue to the bottom of Haunted Valley, effectively functioning as two chairlifts. Lonie explains the logic in the podcast, but if he succeeds here, this would be the first new up-and-over lift built in the United States since Stevens Pass' Double Diamond-Southern Cross machine in 1987. I'm only aware of four other such machines in America, all of them in the Midwest:Little Switzerland recently revealed plans to replace the machine that makes up the 1 and 2 chairlifts with two separate quads next year.On Boho's Nordic SpaI never thought hot tubs and parties and happiness were controversial. Then along came social media. And it turns out that when a ski area that primarily markets itself as a refuge for hardcore skiers also builds a base-area zone for these skiers to sink into another sort of indulgence at day's end and then promotes these features, it make Angry Ski Bro VERY ANGRY.For most of human existence we had incentives to prevent ostentatious attention-seeking whining about peripheral things that had no actual impact on your life, and that incentive was Not Wanting To Get Your Ass Kicked. But some people interpreted the distance and anonymity of the internet as a permission slip to become the worst versions of themselves. And so we have a dedicated corps of morons trolling Boho's socials with chest-thumping proclamations of #RealSkierness that rage against the $18 Nordic Spa fee taped onto each Boho $99 or $112 season pass.But when you go to Boho, what you see is this:And these people do not look angry. Because they are doing something fun and cool. Which is one more reason that I stopped reading social media comments several years ago and decided to base reality on living in it rather than observing it through my Pet Rectangle.On the Mad River Glen Co-Op and Betsy PrattSo far, the only successful U.S. ski area co-op is Mad River Glen, Vermont. Longtime owner Betsy Pratt orchestrated the transformation in 1995. She passed away in 2023 at age 95, giving her lots of years to watch the model endure. Black Mountain, New Hampshire, is in the midst of a similar transformation. On Mount Bohemia TVBoho is a strange, strange universe. Nothing better distills the mountain's essence than Mount Bohemia TV – I mean that in the literal sense, in that each episode immerses you in this peculiar world, but also in an accidental quirk of its execution. Because the video staff keeps, in Lonie's words, “losing the password,” Mount Bohemia has at least four official YouTube channels, each of which hosts different episodes of Mount Bohemia TV.Here's episodes 1, 2, and 3:4 through 15:16 through 20:And 21 and 22:If anyone knows how to sort this out, I'm sure they'd appreciate the assist. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

WhoDeb Hatley, Owner of Hatley Pointe, North CarolinaRecorded onJuly 30, 2025About Hatley PointeClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Deb and David Hatley since 2023 - purchased from Orville English, who had owned and operated the resort since 1992Located in: Mars Hill, North CarolinaYear founded: 1969 (as Wolf Laurel or Wolf Ridge; both names used over the decades)Pass affiliations: Indy Pass, Indy+ Pass – 2 days, no blackoutsClosest neighboring ski areas: Cataloochee (1:25), Sugar Mountain (1:26)Base elevation: 4,000 feetSummit elevation: 4,700 feetVertical drop: 700 feetSkiable acres: 54Average annual snowfall: 65 inchesTrail count: 21 (4 beginner, 11 intermediate, 6 advanced)Lift count: 4 active (1 fixed-grip quad, 1 ropetow, 2 carpets); 2 inactive, both on the upper mountain (1 fixed-grip quad, 1 double)Why I interviewed herOur world has not one map, but many. Nature drew its own with waterways and mountain ranges and ecosystems and tectonic plates. We drew our maps on top of these, to track our roads and borders and political districts and pipelines and railroad tracks.Our maps are functional, simplistic. They insist on fictions. Like the 1,260-mile-long imaginary straight line that supposedly splices the United States from Canada between Washington State and Minnesota. This frontier is real so long as we say so, but if humanity disappeared tomorrow, so would that line.Nature's maps are more resilient. This is where water flows because this is where water flows. If we all go away, the water keeps flowing. This flow, in turn, impacts the shape and function of the entire world.One of nature's most interesting maps is its mountain map. For most of human existence, mountains mattered much more to us than they do now. Meaning: we had to respect these giant rocks because they stood convincingly in our way. It took European settlers centuries to navigate en masse over the Appalachians, which is not even a severe mountain range, by global mountain-range standards. But paved roads and tunnels and gas stations every five miles have muted these mountains' drama. You can now drive from the Atlantic Ocean to the Midwest in half a day.So spoiled by infrastructure, we easily forget how dramatically mountains command huge parts of our world. In America, we know this about our country: the North is cold and the South is warm. And we define these regions using battle maps from a 19th Century war that neatly bisected the nation. Another imaginary line. We travel south for beaches and north to ski and it is like this everywhere, a gentle progression, a continent-length slide that warms as you descend from Alaska to Panama.But mountains disrupt this logic. Because where the land goes up, the air grows cooler. And there are mountains all over. And so we have skiing not just in expected places such as Vermont and Maine and Michigan and Washington, but in completely irrational ones like Arizona and New Mexico and Southern California. And North Carolina.North Carolina. That's the one that surprised me. When I started skiing, I mean. Riding hokey-poke chairlifts up 1990s Midwest hills that wouldn't qualify as rideable surf breaks, I peered out at the world to figure out where else people skied and what that skiing was like. And I was astonished by how many places had organized skiing with cut trails and chairlifts and lift tickets, and by how many of them were way down the Michigan-to-Florida slide-line in places where I thought that winter never came: West Virginia and Virginia and Maryland. And North Carolina.Yes there are ski areas in more improbable states. But Cloudmont, situated in, of all places, Alabama, spins its ropetow for a few days every other year or so. North Carolina, home to six ski areas spinning a combined 35 chairlifts, allows for no such ambiguity: this is a ski state. And these half-dozen ski centers are not marginal operations: Sugar Mountain and Cataloochee opened for the season last week, and they sometimes open in October. Sugar spins a six-pack and two detach quads on a 1,200-foot vertical drop.This geographic quirk is a product of our wonderful Appalachian Mountain chain, which reaches its highest points not in New England but in North Carolina, where Mount Mitchell peaks at 6,684 feet, 396 feet higher than the summit of New Hampshire's Mount Washington. This is not an anomaly: North Carolina is home to six summits taller than Mount Washington, and 12 of the 20-highest in the Appalachians, a range that stretches from Alabama to Newfoundland. And it's not just the summits that are taller in North Carolina. The highest ski area base elevation in New England is Saddleback, which measures 2,147 feet at the bottom of the South Branch quad (the mountain more typically uses the 2,460-foot measurement at the bottom of the Rangeley quad). Either way, it's more than 1,000 feet below the lowest base-area elevation in North Carolina:Unfortunately, mountains and elevation don't automatically equal snow. And the Southern Appalachians are not exactly the Kootenays. It snows some, sometimes, but not so much, so often, that skiing can get by on nature's contributions alone - at least not in any commercially reliable form. It's no coincidence that North Carolina didn't develop any organized ski centers until the 1960s, when snowmaking machines became efficient and common enough for mass deployment. But it's plenty cold up at 4,000 feet, and there's no shortage of water. Snowguns proved to be skiing's last essential ingredient.Well, there was one final ingredient to the recipe of southern skiing: roads. Back to man's maps. Specifically, America's interstate system, which steamrolled the countryside throughout the 1960s and passes just a few miles to Hatley Pointe's west. Without these superhighways, western North Carolina would still be a high-peaked wilderness unknown and inaccessible to most of us.It's kind of amazing when you consider all the maps together: a severe mountain region drawn into the borders of a stable and prosperous nation that builds physical infrastructure easing the movement of people with disposable income to otherwise inaccessible places that have been modified for novel uses by tapping a large and innovative industrial plant that has reduced the miraculous – flight, electricity, the internet - to the commonplace. And it's within the context of all these maps that a couple who knows nothing about skiing can purchase an established but declining ski resort and remake it as an upscale modern family ski center in the space of 18 months.What we talked aboutHurricane Helene fallout; “it took every second until we opened up to make it there,” even with a year idle; the “really tough” decision not to open for the 2023-24 ski season; “we did not realize what we were getting ourselves into”; buying a ski area when you've never worked at a ski area and have only skied a few times; who almost bought Wolf Ridge and why Orville picked the Hatleys instead; the importance of service; fixing up a broken-down ski resort that “felt very old”; updating without losing the approachable family essence; why it was “absolutely necessary” to change the ski area's name; “when you pulled in, the first thing that you were introduced to … were broken-down machines and school buses”; Bible verses and bare trails and busted-up everything; “we could have spent two years just doing cleanup of junk and old things everywhere”; Hatley Pointe then and now; why Hatley removed the double chair; a detachable six-pack at Hatley?; chairlifts as marketing and branding tools; why the Breakaway terrain closed and when it could return and in what form; what a rebuilt summit lodge could look like; Hatley Pointe's new trails; potential expansion; a day-ski area, a resort, or both?; lift-served mountain bike park incoming; night-skiing expansion; “I was shocked” at the level of après that Hatley drew, and expanding that for the years ahead; North Carolina skiing is all about the altitude; re-opening The Bowl trail; going to online-only sales; and lessons learned from 2024-25 that will build a better Hatley for 2025-26.What I got wrongWhen we recorded this conversation, the ski area hadn't yet finalized the name of the new green trail coming off of Eagle – it is Pat's Way (see trailmap above).I asked if Hatley intended to install night-skiing, not realizing that they had run night-ski operations all last winter.Why now was a good time for this interviewPardon my optimism, but I'm feeling good about American lift-served skiing right now. Each of the past five winters has been among the top 10 best seasons for skier visits, U.S. ski areas have already built nearly as many lifts in the 2020s (246) as they did through all of the 2010s (288), and multimountain passes have streamlined the flow of the most frequent and passionate skiers between mountains, providing far more flexibility at far less cost than would have been imaginable even a decade ago.All great. But here's the best stat: after declining throughout the 1980s and ‘90s, the number of active U.S. ski areas stabilized around the turn of the century, and has actually increased for five consecutive winters:Those are National Ski Areas Association numbers, which differ slightly from mine. I count 492 active ski hills for 2023-24 and 500 for last winter, and I project 510 potentially active ski areas for the 2025-26 campaign. But no matter: the number of active ski operations appears to be increasing.But the raw numbers matter less than the manner in which this uptick is happening. In short: a new generation of owners is resuscitating lost or dying ski areas. Many have little to no ski industry experience. Driven by nostalgia, a sense of community duty, plain business opportunity, or some combination of those things, they are orchestrating massive ski area modernization projects, funded via their own wealth – typically earned via other enterprises – or by rallying a donor base.Examples abound. When I launched The Storm in 2019, Saddleback, Maine; Norway Mountain, Michigan; Woodward Park City; Thrill Hills, North Dakota; Deer Mountain, South Dakota; Paul Bunyan, Wisconsin; Quarry Road, Maine; Steeplechase, Minnesota; and Snowland, Utah were all lost ski areas. All are now open again, and only one – Woodward – was the project of an established ski area operator (Powdr). Cuchara, Colorado and Nutt Hill, Wisconsin are on the verge of re-opening following decades-long lift closures. Bousquet, Massachusetts; Holiday Mountain, New York; Kissing Bridge, New York; and Black Mountain, New Hampshire were disintegrating in slow-motion before energetic new owners showed up with wrecking balls and Home Depot frequent-shopper accounts. New owners also re-energized the temporarily dormant Sandia Peak, New Mexico and Tenney, New Hampshire.One of my favorite revitalization stories has been in North Carolina, where tired, fire-ravaged, investment-starved, homey-but-rickety Wolf Ridge was falling down and falling apart. The ski area's season ended in February four times between 2018 and 2023. Snowmaking lagged. After an inferno ate the summit lodge in 2014, no one bothered rebuilding it. Marooned between the rapidly modernizing North Carolina ski trio of Sugar Mountain, Cataloochee, and Beech, Wolf Ridge appeared to be rapidly fading into irrelevance.Then the Hatleys came along. Covid-curious first-time skiers who knew little about skiing or ski culture, they saw opportunity where the rest of us saw a reason to keep driving. Fixing up a ski area turned out to be harder than they'd anticipated, and they whiffed on opening for the 2023-24 winter. Such misses sometimes signal that the new owners are pulling their ripcords as they launch out of the back of the plane, but the Hatleys kept working. They gut-renovated the lodge, modernized the snowmaking plant, tore down an SLI double chair that had witnessed the signing of the Declaration of Independence. And last winter, they re-opened the best version of the ski area now known as Hatley Pointe that locals had seen in decades.A great winter – one of the best in recent North Carolina history – helped. But what I admire about the Hatleys – and this new generation of owners in general – is their optimism in a cultural moment that has deemed optimism corny and naïve. Everything is supposed to be terrible all the time, don't you know that? They didn't know, and that orientation toward the good, tempered by humility and patience, reversed the long decline of a ski area that had in many ways ceased to resonate with the world it existed in.The Hatleys have lots left to do: restore the Breakaway terrain, build a new summit lodge, knot a super-lift to the frontside. And their Appalachian salvage job, while impressive, is not a very repeatable blueprint – you need considerable wealth to take a season off while deploying massive amounts of capital to rebuild the ski area. The Hatley model is one among many for a generation charged with modernizing increasingly antiquated ski areas before they fall over dead. Sometimes, as in the examples itemized above, they succeed. But sometimes they don't. Comebacks at Cockaigne and Hickory, both in New York, fizzled. Sleeping Giant, Wyoming and Ski Blandford, Massachusetts both shuttered after valiant rescue attempts. All four of these remain salvageable, but last week, Four Seasons, New York closed permanently after 63 years.That will happen. We won't be able to save every distressed ski area, and the potential supply of new or revivable ski centers, barring massive cultural and regulatory shifts, will remain limited. But the protectionist tendencies limiting new ski area development are, in a trick of human psychology, the same ones that will drive the revitalization of others – the only thing Americans resist more than building something new is taking away something old. Which in our country means anything that was already here when we showed up. A closed or closing ski area riles the collective angst, throws a snowy bat signal toward the night sky, a beacon and a dare, a cry and a plea: who wants to be a hero?Podcast NotesOn Hurricane HeleneHelene smashed inland North Carolina last fall, just as Hatley was attempting to re-open after its idle year. Here's what made the storm so bad:On Hatley's socialsFollow:On what I look for at a ski resortOn the Ski Big Bear podcastIn the spirit of the article above, one of the top 10 Storm Skiing Podcast guest quotes ever came from Ski Big Bear, Pennsylvania General Manager Lori Phillips: “You treat everyone like they paid a million dollars to be there doing what they're doing”On ski area name changesI wrote a piece on Hatley's name change back in 2023:Ski area name changes are more common than I'd thought. I've been slowly documenting past name changes as I encounter them, so this is just a partial list, but here are 93 active U.S. ski areas that once went under a different name. If you know of others, please email me.On Hatley at the point of purchase and nowGigantic collections of garbage have always fascinated me. That's essentially what Wolf Ridge was at the point of sale:It's a different place now:On the distribution of six-packs across the nationSix-pack chairlifts are rare and expensive enough that they're still special, but common enough that we're no longer amazed by them. Mostly - it depends on where we find such a machine. Just 112 of America's 3,202 ski lifts (3.5 percent) are six-packs, and most of these (75) are in the West (60 – more than half the nation's total, are in Colorado, Utah, or California). The Midwest is home to a half-dozen six-packs, all at Boyne or Midwest Family Ski Resorts operations, and the East has 31 sixers, 17 of which are in New England, and 12 of which are in Vermont. If Hatley installed a sixer, it would be just the second such chairlift in North Carolina, and the fifth in the Southeast, joining the two at Wintergreen, Virginia and the one at Timberline, West Virginia.On the Breakaway fireWolf Ridge's upper-mountain lodge burned down in March 2014. Yowza:On proposed expansions Wolf Ridge's circa 2007 trailmap teases a potential expansion below the now-closed Breakaway terrain:Taking our time machine back to the late ‘80s, Wolf Ridge had envisioned an even more ambitious expansion:The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

WhoWes Kryger, President and Ayden Wilbur, Vice President of Mountain Operations at Greek Peak, New YorkRecorded onJune 30, 2025About Greek PeakClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: John MeierLocated in: Cortland, New YorkYear founded: 1957 – opened Jan. 11, 1958Pass affiliations: Indy Pass, Indy+ Pass – 2 daysClosest neighboring U.S. ski areas: Labrador (:30), Song (:31)Base elevation: 1,148 feetSummit elevation: 2,100 feetVertical drop: 952 feetSkiable acres: 300Average annual snowfall: 120 inchesTrail count: 46 (10 easier, 16 more difficult, 15 most difficult, 5 expert, 4 terrain parks)Lift count: 8 (1 fixed-grip quad, 2 triples, 3 doubles – view Lift Blog's inventory of Greek Peak's lift fleet)Why I interviewed themNo reason not to just reprint what I wrote about the bump earlier this year:All anyone wants from a family ski trip is this: not too far, not too crowded, not too expensive, not too steep, not too small, not too Bro-y. Terrain variety and ample grooming and lots of snow, preferably from the sky. Onsite lodging and onsite food that doesn't taste like it emerged from the ration box of a war that ended 75 years ago. A humane access road and lots of parking. Ordered liftlines and easy ticket pickup and a big lodge to meet up and hang out in. We're not too picky you see but all that would be ideal.My standard answer to anyone from NYC making such an inquiry has been “hahaha yeah get on a plane and go out West.” But only if you purchased lift tickets 10 to 16 months in advance of your vacation. Otherwise you could settle a family of four on Mars for less than the cost of a six-day trip to Colorado. But after MLK Weekend, I have a new answer for picky non-picky New Yorkers: just go to Greek Peak.Though I'd skied here in the past and am well-versed on all ski centers within a six-hour drive of Manhattan, it had not been obvious to me that Greek Peak was so ideally situated for a FamSki. Perhaps because I'd been in Solo Dad tree-skiing mode on previous visits and perhaps because the old trailmap presented the ski area in a vertical fortress motif aligned with its mythological trail-naming scheme:But here is how we experienced the place on one of the busiest weekends of the year:1. No lines to pick up tickets. Just these folks standing around in jackets, producing an RFID card from some clandestine pouch and syncing it to the QR code on my phone.2. Nothing resembling a serious liftline outside of the somewhat chaotic Visions “express” (a carpet-loaded fixed-grip quad). Double and triple chairs, scattered at odd spots and shooting off in all directions, effectively dispersing skiers across a broad multi-faced ridge. The highlight being this double chair originally commissioned by Socrates in 407 B.C.:3. Best of all: endless, wide-open, uncrowded top-to-bottom true greens – the only sort of run that my entire family can ski both stress-free and together.Those runs ambled for a thousand vertical feet. The Hope Lake Lodge, complete with waterpark and good restaurant, sits directly across the street. A shuttle runs back and forth all day long. Greek Peak, while deeper inland than many Great Lakes-adjacent ski areas, pulls steady lake-effect, meaning glades everywhere (albeit thinly covered). It snowed almost the entire weekend, sometimes heavily. Greek Peak's updated trailmap better reflects its orientation as a snowy family funhouse (though it somewhat obscures the mountain's ever-improving status as a destination for Glade Bro):For MLK 2024, we had visited Camelback, seeking the same slopeside-hotel-with-waterpark-decent-food-family-skiing combo. But it kinda sucked. The rooms, tinted with an Ikea-by-the-Susquehanna energy, were half the size of those at Greek Peak and had cost three times more. Our first room could have doubled as the smoking pen at a public airport (we requested, and received, another). The hill was half-open and overrun with people who seemed to look up and be genuinely surprised to find themselves strapped to snoskis. Mandatory parking fees even with a $600-a-night room; mandatory $7-per-night, per-skier ski check (which I dodged); and perhaps the worst liftline management I've ever witnessed had, among many other factors, added up to “let's look for something better next year.”That something was Greek Peak, though the alternative only occurred to me when I attended an industry event at the resort in September and re-considered its physical plant undistracted by ski-day chaos. Really, this will never be a true alternative for most NYC skiers – at four hours from Manhattan, Greek Peak is the same distance as far larger Stratton or Mount Snow. I like both of those mountains, but I know which one I'm driving my family to when our only time to ski together is the same time that everyone else has to ski together.What we talked about116,000 skier visits; two GP trails getting snowmaking for the first time; top-to-bottom greens; Greek Peak's family founding in the 1950s – “any time you told my dad [Al Kryger] he couldn't do it, he would do it just to prove you wrong”; reminiscing on vintage Greek Peak; why Greek Peak made it when similar ski areas like Scotch Valley went bust; the importance of having “hardcore skiers” run a ski area; does the interstate matter?; the unique dynamics of working in – and continuing – a family business; the saga and long-term impact of building a full resort hotel across the street from the ski area; “a ski area is liking running a small municipality”; why the family sold the ski area more than half a century after its founding; staying on at the family business when it's no longer a family business; John Meier arrives; why Greek Peak sold Toggenburg; long-term snowmaking ambitions; potential terrain expansion – where and how much; “having more than one good ski season in a row would be helpful” in planning a future expansion; how Greek Peak modernized its snowmaking system and cut its snowmaking hours in half while making more snow; five times more snowguns; Great Lakes lake-effect snow; Greek Peak's growing glade network and long evolution from a no-jumps-allowed old-school operation to today's more freewheeling environment; potential lift upgrades; why Greek Peak is unlikely to ever have a high-speed lift; keeping a circa 1960s lift made by an obscure company running; why Greek Peak replaced an old double with a used triple on Chair 3 a few years ago; deciding to renovate or replace a lift; how the Visions 1A quad changed Greek Peak and where a similar lift could make sense; why Greek Peak shortened Chair 2; and the power of Indy Pass for small, independent ski areas.What I got wrongOn Scotch Valley ski areaI said that Scotch Valley went out of business “in the late ‘90s.” As far as I can tell, the ski area's last year of operation was 1998. At its peak, the 750-vertical-foot ski area ran a triple chair and two doubles serving a typical quirky-fun New York trail network. I'm sorry I missed skiing this one. Interestingly, the triple chair still appears to operate as part of a summer camp. I wish they would also run a winter camp called “we're re-opening this ski area”:On ToggenburgI paraphrased a quote from Greek Peak owner John Meier, from a story I wrote around the 2021 closing of Toggenburg. Here's the quote in full:“Skiing doesn't have to happen in New York State,” Meier said. “It takes an entrepreneur, it takes a business investor. You gotta want to do it, and you're not going to make a lot of money doing it. You're going to wonder why are you doing this? It's a very difficult business in general. It's very capital-intensive business. There's a lot easier ways to make a buck. This is a labor of love for me.”And here's the full story, which lays out the full Togg saga:Podcast NotesOn Hope Lake Lodge and New York's lack of slopeside lodgingI've complained about this endlessly, but it's strange and counter-environmental that New York's two largest ski areas offer no slopeside lodging. This is the same oddball logic at work in the Pacific Northwest, which stridently and reflexively opposes ski area-adjacent development in the name of preservation without acknowledging the ripple effects of moving 5,000 day skiers up to the mountain each winter morning. Unfortunately Gore and Whiteface are on Forever Wild land that would require an amendment to the state constitution to develop, and that process is beholden to idealistic downstate voters who like the notion of preservation enough to vote abstractly against development, but not enough to favor Whiteface over Sugarbush when it's time to book a family ski trip and they need convenient lodging. Which leaves us with smaller mountains that can more readily develop slopeside buildings: Holiday Valley and Hunter are perhaps the most built-up, but West Mountain has a monster development grinding through local permitting processes: Greek Peak built the brilliant Hope Lake Lodge, a sprawling hotel/waterpark with wood-trimmed, fireplace-appointed rooms directly across the street from the ski area. A shuttle connects the two.On the “really, really bad” 2015 seasonWilbur referred to the “really, really bad” 2015 season. Here's the Kottke end-of-season stats comparing 2015-16 snowfall to the previous three winters, where you can see the Northeast just collapse into an abyss:Month-by-month (also from Kottke):Fast forward to Kottke's 2022-23 report, and you can see just how terrible 2015-16 was in terms of skier visits compared to the seasons immediately before and after:On Greek Peak's old masterplan with a chair 6I couldn't turn up the masterplan that Kryger referred to with a Chair 6 on it, but the trailmap did tease a potential expansion from around 2006 to 2012, labelled as “Greek Peak East”:On Great Lakes lake-effect snow This is maybe the best representation I've found of the Great Lakes' lake-effect snowbands:On Greek Peak's Lift 2What a joy this thing is to ride:An absolute time machine:The lift, built in 1963, looks rattletrap and bootleg, but it hums right along. It is the second-oldest operating chairlift in New York State, after Snow Ridge's 1960 North Hall double chair, and the fourth-oldest in the Northeast (Mad River Glen's single, dating to 1948, is King Gramps of the East Coast). It's one of the 20-oldest operating chairlifts in America:As Wilbur says, this lift once ran all the way to the base. They shortened the lift sometime between 1995 and '97 to scrape out a larger base-area novice zone. Greek Peak's circa 1995 trailmap shows the lift extending to its original load position:Following Pico's demolition of the Bonanza double this offseason, Greek Peak's Chair 2 is one of just three remaining Carlevaro-Savio lifts spinning in the United States:The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

WhoBarry Owens, General Manager of Treetops, MichiganRecorded onJune 13, 2025About TreetopsClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Treetops Acquisition Company LLCLocated in: Gaylord, MichiganYear founded: 1954Pass affiliations: Indy Pass, Indy+ Pass – 2 daysClosest neighboring ski areas: Otsego (:07), Boyne Mountain (:34), Hanson Hills (:39), Shanty Creek (:51), The Highlands (:58), Nub's Nob (1:00)Base elevation: 1,110 feetSummit elevation: 1,333 feetVertical drop: 223 feetSkiable acres: 80Average annual snowfall: 140 inchesTrail count: 25 (30% beginner, 40% intermediate, 30% advanced)Lift count: 5 (3 triples, 2 carpets – view Lift Blog's inventory of Treetops' lift fleet)Why I interviewed himThe first 10 ski areas I ever skied, in order, were:* Mott Mountain, Michigan* Apple Mountain, Michigan* Snow Snake, Michigan* Caberfae, Michigan* Crystal Mountain, Michigan* Nub's Nob, Michigan* Skyline, Michigan* Treetops, Michigan* Sugar Loaf, Michigan* Shanty Creek – Schuss Mountain, MichiganAnd here are the first 10 ski areas I ever skied that are still open, with anything that didn't make it crossed out:* Mott Mountain, Michigan* Apple Mountain, Michigan* Snow Snake, Michigan* Caberfae, Michigan* Crystal Mountain, Michigan* Nub's Nob, Michigan* Skyline, Michigan* Treetops, Michigan* Sugar Loaf, Michigan* Shanty Creek – Schuss Mountain, Michigan* Shanty Creek – Summit, Michigan* Boyne Mountain, Michigan* Searchmont, Ontario* Nebraski, Nebraska* Copper Mountain, Colorado* Keystone, ColoradoSix of my first 16. Poof. That's a failure rate of 37.5 percent. I'm no statistician, but I'd categorize that as “not good.”Now, there's some nuance to this list. I skied all of these between 1992 and 1995. Most had faded officially or functionally by 2000, around the time that America's Great Ski Area Die-Off concluded (Summit lasted until around Covid, and could still re-open, resort officials tell me). Their causes of death are varied, some combination, usually, of incompetence, indifference, and failure to adapt. To climate change, yes, but more of the cultural kind of adaptation than the environmental sort.The first dozen ski areas on this list are tightly bunched, geographically, in the upper half of Michigan's Lower Peninsula. They draw from the same general population centers and suffer from the same stunted Midwest verticals. None are naturally or automatically great ski areas. None are or were particularly remote or tricky to access, and most sit alongside or near a major state or federal highway. And they (mostly) all benefit from the same Lake Michigan lake-effect snow machine, the output of which appears to be increasing as the Great Lakes freeze more slowly and less often (cold air flowing over warm water = lake-effect snow).Had you presented this list of a dozen Michigan ski areas to me in 1995 and said, “five of these will drop dead in the next 30 years,” I would not have chosen those five, necessarily, to fail. These weren't ropetow backwaters. All but Apple had chairlifts (and they soon installed one), and most sat close to cities or were attached to a larger resort. Sugar Loaf, in particular, was one of Michigan's better ski areas, with five chairlifts and the largest in-state vertical drop on this list.My guess for most-likely-to-die probably would have been Treetops, especially if you'd told me that then-private Otsego ski area, right next door and with twice its neighbor's skiable acreage, vertical drop, and number of chairlifts, would eventually open to the public. Especially if you'd told me that Boyne Mountain, the monster down the road, would continue to expand its lodging and village, and would add a Treetops-sized cluster of greens to its ferocious ridge of blacks. Especially if you'd told me that Treetops' trail footprint, never substantial, would remain more or less the same size 30 years later. In fact, just about every surviving Michigan ski area on that list - Crystal, Nub's, Caberfae, Shanty Schuss - greatly expanded its terrain footprint. Except Treetops.But here we are, in the future, and I just skied Treetops 10 months ago with my 8-year-old son. It was, in some ways, more or less as I'd left it on my last visit, in 1995: small vert, small trail network, a slightly confusing parking situation, no chairlift restraint bars. A few improvements were obvious: the beginner ropetows had made way for a carpet, the last double chair had been upgraded to a triple, terrain park features dotted the east side, and a dozen or so glades and short steep shots had been hacked from the woods of the legacy trail footprint.That's all nice. But what was not obvious to me was this: why, and how, does Treetops the ski area still exist? Sugar Loaf was a better ski area. Apple Mountain was closer to large population centers. Summit was attached to ski-in-ski-out accommodations and shared a lift ticket with the larger Schuss mountain a couple miles away. Was modern Treetops some sort of money-losing ski area hobby horse for whomever owned the larger resort, which is better known for its five golf courses? Was it just an amenity to keep the second homeowners who mostly lived in Southeast Michigan invested year-round? Had the ski area cemented itself as the kind of high-volume schoolkids training ground that explained the resilience of ski areas in metro Detroit, Minneapolis, and Milwaukee?There is never, or rarely, one easy or obvious explanation for why similar businesses thrive or fail. This is why I resist pinning the numerical decline in America's ski area inventory solely to climate change. We may have fewer ski areas in America than we had in 1995, but we have a lot more good ski areas now than we did 30 years ago (and, as I wrote in March, a lot more overall ski terrain). Yes, Skyline, 40 minutes south of Treetops, failed because it never installed snowmaking, but that is only part of the sentence. Skyline failed because it never installed snowmaking while its competitors aggressively expanded and continually updated their snowmaking systems, raising the floor on the minimal ski experience acceptable to consumers. That takes us back to culture. What do you reckon has changed more over the past 30 to 40 years: America's weather patterns, or its culture? For anyone who remembers ashtrays at McDonald's or who rode in the bed of a pickup truck from Michigan to Illinois or who ran feral and unsupervised outdoors from toddlerhood or who somehow fumbled through this vast world without the internet or a Pet Rectangle or their evil offspring social media, the answer seems obvious. The weather feels a little different. Our culture feels airlifted from another planet. Americans accepted things 30 years ago that would seem outrageous today – like smoking adjacent to a children's play area ornamented with a demented smiling clown. But this applies to skiing as well. My Treetops day in 1995 was memorably horrible, the snow groomed but fossilized, unturnable. A few weeks earlier, I'd skied Skyline on perhaps a three-inch base, grass poking through the trails. Modern skiers, armed with the internet and its Hubble connection to every ski area on the planet, would not accept either set of conditions today. But one of those ski areas adapted and the other did not. That's the “why” of Treetops survival. It was the “how” that I needed Barry Owens to help me understand.What we talked aboutLast winter's ice storm – “it provides great insight into human character when you go through that stuff”; record snowfall (204 inches!) to chase the worst winter ever; the Lake Michigan snowbelt; a golf resort with a ski area attached; building a ski culture when “we didn't have enough people dedicated to ski… and it showed”; competing with nearby ski areas many times Treetops' size “we don't shy away from… who we are and what we are”; what happened when next-door-neighbor Otsego Resort switched from a private to a public model in 2017 – “neither one of us is going to get rich seeing who can get the most $15 lift tickets on a Wednesday”; I attempt to talk about golf and why Michigan is a golf mecca; moving on from something you've spent decades building; Treetops' rough financial period and why Owens initially turned down the GM job; how Owens convinced ownership not to close the ski area; fixing a “can't-do staff” by “doing things that created the freedom to be able to act”; Treetops' strange 2014 bankruptcy and rebuilding from there; “right now we're happy” with the lift fleet; how much it would cost to retrofit Treetops' lifts with restraint bars; timeline for potential ski expansion at Treetops; bargain season passes (as low as $125); and Indy Pass' network power.What I got wrong* I said “Gaylord County,” but the city of Gaylord is in Otsego County.* I said that Boyne Resorts, operator of 11 ski areas, also runs “10 or 11 golf resorts.” The company operates 14 golf courses.* I said that Michigan had a “very good” road network and that there was “not a lot of traffic,” and if you live there, you're reaction is probably, “you're dumb.” What I meant by “very good road network” is this: compared to most ski regions, which have, um, mountains, Michigan's bumplets sit more or less directly alongside the state's straight, flat, almost perfectly gridded highway network. Also, the “not a lot of traffic” thing does not apply to special situations like, say, northbound I-75 on a July Friday evening.* I said that Crystal, Nub's, Caberfae, and Shanty Creek were “close” – while they're not necessarily all close to one another, they are all roughly equidistant for folks coming to them from downstate.* I said that Treetops was “the fifth or sixth place I ever skied at,” but upon further review, it was number eight (which is reflected in the list above).Podcast NotesOn the ice stormAn ice storm hammered Northern Michigan in late March of this year:On the lightning strike on Treetops' golf courseOn the Midwest's terrible 2023-24 ski seasonSkier visits cratered in the Midwest during the 2023-24 ski season, the region's worst on record from a snowfall point of view. Weather - and skier visits - settled back into normal ranges last winter:This is a bit hard to see with any sort of precision, but this 10-year chart gives a nice sense of just how abnormal 2023-24 was for the Midwest:On Michigan's ski areasMichigan is home to 44 active ski areas - more than any state other than New York. Many of them are quite small, operate sporadically, and run only surface lifts, but Treetops is close to a bunch of the better lift-served outfits, including Boyne Mountain, Nub's Nob, and The Highlands (the UP ski areas may as well be in another state). It helps Treetops that so many of the state's ski areas have also joined Indy Pass:On Otsego ResortFor decades - I'm not certain how long, exactly - Otsego Resort, right next door to Treetops and with roughly double the vertical drop and skiable acreage, was private. In 2017, the bump opened to the public, considerably amping up competition. Complicating the matter further, Otsego sits a bit closer to Michigan's Main Street - I-75 - than Treetops.On Snow OperatingOwens mentioned working with “TBL” – he was referring to Terrain Based Learning, Snow Partners' learn-to-ski program. That company also runs the Snow Cloud operating system that Owens refers to at the end.On Treetops' rough period I quoted this Detroit Business News article at length in the interview. It goes deep on Treetops' precarious early 2000s history and the resort's broken employee culture at the time.On people being nice at ski areasYeah I'm super into this:On the hedgehog conceptOwens mentions “the hedgehog concept,” which I wasn't familiar with. It sounded like a business-book thing, and it is, adapted by author Jim Collins for his book Good to Great and described in this way on his website:The Hedgehog Concept is developed in the book Good to Great. A simple, crystalline concept that flows from deep understanding about the intersection of three circles: 1) what you are deeply passionate about, 2) what you can be the best in the world at, and 3) what best drives your economic or resource engine. Transformations from good to great come about by a series of good decisions made consistently with a Hedgehog Concept, supremely well executed, accumulating one upon another, over a long period of time.More:On safety-bar requirements in New York and New EnglandThis is kind of funny…That's my 8-year-old son, who's skied in a dozen states, taking his first ride on a lift with no safety bar, at Treetops last December. Why such machines still exist in 2025, I have no idea - this lift rises about 30 feet off the ground. In the East, all chairlifts are equipped with bars, and state law mandates their use in New York, Massachusetts, and Vermont (and perhaps elsewhere). I don't advocate for rider mandates, but I do think all chairlifts ought to have bars available for those who want them. Owens and I discuss the resort's plans to retrofit Treetops' three chairlifts - CTEC machines installed between 1984 and 1995 - with bars. The cost would be roughly $250,000. That's a significant number, but probably a lot less than the figure if, say, someone has a heart attack or seizure on the lift, falls off, then sues the resort. Besides, as Owens points out, chairlifts must be equipped with restraint bars for summer use, which would open new revenue streams. Why are bars required for summer activities, but not winter? It's a strange anachronism, unique among the ski world to America.On “Joe from SMI”I mentioned “Joe from SMI” offhand. I was referring to SMI Snowmakers President Joe VanderKelen, who appeared on the podcast back in 2022:On potential expansion Owens discusses a potential expansion looker's left of Chair 1, which would restore lost terrain and built upon that. This 1988 trailmap shows a couple of the trails that Treetops eliminated to make way for its current top-to-bottom access road (trails 1 through 4):The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

Take 20% off a paid annual ‘Storm' subscription through Monday, Oct. 27, 2025.WhoJared Smith, Chief Executive Officer of Alterra Mountain CompanyRecorded onOctober 22, 2025About Alterra Mountain CompanyAlterra is skiing's Voltron, a collection of super-bots united to form one super-duper bot. Only instead of gigantic robot lions the bots are gigantic ski areas and instead of fighting the evil King Zarkon they combined to battle Vail Resorts and its cackling mad Epic Pass. Here is Alterra's current ski-bot stable:Alterra of course also owns the Ikon Pass, which for the 2025-26 winter gives skiers all of this:Ikon launched in 2018 as a more-or-less-even competitor to Epic Pass, both in number and stature of ski areas and price, but long ago blew past its mass-market competitor in both:Those 89 total ski areas include nine that Alterra added last week in Japan, South Korea, and China. Some of these 89 partners, however, are so-called “bonus mountains,” which are Alterra's Cinderellas. And not Cinderella at the end of the story when she rules the kingdom and dines on stag and hunts peasants for sport but first-scene Cinderella when she lives in a windowless tower and wears a burlap dress and her only friends are talking mice. Meaning skiers can use their Ikon Pass to ski at these places but they are not I repeat NOT on the Ikon Pass so don't you dare say they are (they are).While the Ikon Pass is Alterra's Excalibur, many of its owned mountains offer their own season passes (see Alterra chart above). And many now offer their own SUPER-DUPER season passes that let skiers do things like cut in front of the poors and dine on stag in private lounges:These SUPER-DUPER passes don't bother me though a lot of you want me to say they're THE END OF SKIING. I won't put a lot of effort into talking you off that point so long as you're all skiing for $17 per day on your Ikon Passes. But I will continue to puzzle over why the Ikon Session Pass is such a very very bad and terrible product compared to every other day pass including those sold by Alterra's own mountains. I am also not a big advocate for peak-day lift ticket prices that resemble those of black-market hand sanitizer in March 2020:Fortunately Vail and Alterra seem to have launched a lift ticket price war, the first battle of which is The Battle of Give Half Off Coupons to Your Dumb Friends Who Don't Buy A Ski Pass 10 Months Before They Plan to Ski:Alterra also runs some heli-ski outfits up in B.C. but I'm not going to bother decoding all that because one reason I started The Storm was because I was over stories of Bros skiing 45 feet of powder at the top of the Chugach while the rest of us fretted over parking reservations and the $5 replacement cost of an RFID card. I know some of you are like Bro how many stories do you think the world needs about chairlifts but hey at least pretty much anyone reading this can go ride them.Oh and also I probably lost like 95 percent of you with Voltron because unless you were between the ages of 7 and 8 in the mid-1980s you probably missed this:One neat thing about skiing is that if someone ran headfirst into a snowgun in 1985 and spent four decades in a coma and woke up tomorrow they'd still know pretty much all the ski areas even if they were confused about what's a Palisades Tahoe and why all of us future wussies wear helmets. “Damn it, Son in my day we didn't bother and I'm just fine. Now grab $20 and a pack of smokes and let's go skiing.”Why I interviewed himFor pretty much the same reason I interviewed this fellow:I mean like it or not these two companies dominate modern lift-served skiing in this country, at least from a narrative point of view. And while I do everything I can to demonstrate that between the Indy Pass and ski areas not in Colorado or Utah or Tahoe plenty of skier choice remains, it's impossible to ignore the fact that Alterra's 17 U.S. ski areas and Vail's 36 together make up around 30 percent of the skiable terrain across America's 509 active ski areas:And man when you add in all U.S. Epic and Ikon mountains it's like dang:We know publicly traded Vail's Epic Pass sales numbers and we know those numbers have softened over the past couple of years, but we don't have similar access to Alterra's numbers. A source with direct knowledge of Ikon Pass sales recently told me that unit sales had increased every year. Perhaps some day someone will anonymously message me a screenshot code-named Alterra's Big Dumb Chart documenting unit and dollar sales since Ikon's 2018 launch. In the meantime, I'm just going to have to keep talking to the guy running the company and asking extremely sly questions like, “if you had to give us a ballpark estimate of exactly how many Ikon Passes you sold and how much you paid each partner mountain and which ski area you're going to buy next, what would you say?”What we talked aboutA first-to-open competition between A-Basin and Winter Park (A-Basin won); the allure of skiing Japan; Ikon as first-to-market in South Korea and China; continued Ikon expansion in Europe; who's buying Ikon?; bonus mountains; half-off friends tickets; reserve passes; “one of the things we've struggled with as an industry are the dynamics between purchasing a pass and the daily lift ticket price”; “we've got to find ways to make it more accessible, more affordable, more often for more people”; Europe as a cheaper ski alternative to the West; “we are focused every day on … what is the right price for the right consumer on the right day?”; “there's never been more innovation” in the ski ticket space; Palisades Tahoe's 14-year-village-expansion approval saga; America's “increasingly complex” landscape of community stakeholders; and Deer Valley's massive expansion.What I got wrong* We didn't get this wrong, but when we recorded this pod on Wednesday, Smith and I discussed which of Alterra's ski areas would open first. Arapahoe Basin won that fight, opening at 3 p.m. on Saturday, Oct. 25, which was yesterday unless you're reading this in the future.* I said that 40 percent of all Epic, Ikon, and Indy pass partners were outside of North America. This is inaccurate: 40 percent (152) of those three passes' combined 383 partners is outside the United States. Subtracting their 49 Canadian ski areas gives us 103 mountains outside of North America, or 27 percent of the total.* I claimed that a ski vacation to Europe is “a quarter of the price” of a similar trip to the U.S. This was hyperbole, and obviously the available price range of ski vacations is enormous, but in general, prices for everything from lift tickets to hotels to food tend to be lower in the Alps than in the Rocky Mountain core.* It probably seems strange that I said that Deer Valley's East Village was great because you could drive there from the airport without hitting a spotlight and also said that the resort would be less car-dependent. What I meant by that was that once you arrive at East Village, it is – or will be, when complete – a better slopeside pedestrian village experience than the car-oriented Snow Park that has long served as the resort's principal entry point. Snow Park itself is scheduled to evolve from parking-lot-and-nothing-else to secondary pedestrian village. The final version of Deer Valley should reduce the number of cars within Park City proper and create a more vibrant atmosphere at the ski area.Questions I wish I'd askedThe first question you're probably asking is “Bro why is this so short aren't your podcasts usually longer than a Superfund cleanup?” Well I take what I can get and if there's a question you can think of related to Ikon or Alterra or any of the company's mountains, it was on my list. But Smith had either 30 minutes or zero minutes so I took the win.Podcast NotesOn Deer ValleyI was talking to the Deer Valley folks the other day and we agreed that they're doing so much so fast that it's almost impossible to tell the story. I mean this was Deer Valley two winters ago:And this will be Deer Valley this winter:Somehow it's easier to write 3,000 words on Indy Pass adding a couple of Northeast backwaters than it is to frame up the ambitions of a Utah ski area expanding by as much skiable acreage as all 30 New Hampshire ski areas combined in just two years. Anyway Deer Valley is about to be the sixth-largest ski area in America and when this whole project is done in a few years it will be number four at 5,700 acres, behind only Vail Resorts' neighboring Park City (7,300 acres), Alterra's own Palisades Tahoe (6,000 acres), and Boyne Resorts' Big Sky (5,850 acres).On recent Steamboat upgradesYes the Wild Blue Gondola is cool and I'm sure everyone from Baton-Tucky just loves it. But everything I'm hearing out of Steamboat over the past couple of winters indicates that A) the 650-acre Mahogany Ridge expansion adds a fistfighting dimension to what had largely been an intermediate ski resort, and that, B) so far, no one goes over there, partially because they don't know about it and partially because the resort only cut one trail in the whole amazing zone (far looker's left):I guess just go ski this one while everyone else still thinks Steamboat is nothing but gondolas and Sunshine Peak.On Winter Park being “on deck”After stringing the two sides of Palisades Tahoe together with a $75 trillion gondola and expanding Steamboat and nearly tripling the size of Deer Valley, all signs point to Alterra next pushing its resources into actualizing Winter Park's ambitious masterplan, starting with the gondola connection to town (right side of map):On new Ikon Pass partners for 2025-26You can read about the bonus partners above, but here are the write-ups on Ikon's full seven/five-day partners:On previous Alterra podcastsThis was Smith's second appearance on the pod. Here's number one, from 2023:His predecessor, Rusty Gregory, appeared on the show three times:I've also hosted the leaders of a bunch of Alterra leaders on the pod, most recently A-Basin and Mammoth:And the heads of many Ikon Pass partners – most recently Killington and Sun Valley:On U.S. passes in JapanEpic, Ikon, Indy, and Mountain Collective are now aligned with 48 ski areas in Japan – nearly as many as the four passes have signed in Canada:On EuropeAnd here are the European ski areas aligned with Epic, Ikon, Indy, and Mountain Collective – the list is shorter than the Japanese list, but since each European ski area is made up of between one and 345 ski areas, the actual skiable acreage here is likely equal to the landmass of Greenland:On skier and ski area growth in ChinaChina's ski industry appears to be developing rapidly - I'm not sure what to make of the difference between “ski resorts” and “ski resorts with aerial ropeways.” Normally I'd assume that means with or without lifts, but that doesn't make a lot of sense and sometimes nations frame things in very different ways.On the village at Palisades TahoeThe approval process for a village expansion on the Olympic side of Palisades Tahoe was a very convoluted one. KCRA sums the outcome up well (I'll note that “Alterra” did not call for anything in 2011, as the company didn't exist until 2017):Under the initial 2011 application, Alterra had called for the construction of 2,184 bedrooms. That was reduced to 1,493 bedrooms in a 2014 revised proposal where 850 housing units — a mix of condominiums, hotel rooms and timeshares — were planned. The new agreement calls for a total of 896 bedrooms.The groups that pushed this downsizing were primarily Keep Tahoe Blue and Sierra Watch. Smith is very diplomatic in discussing this project on the podcast, pointing to the “collaboration, communication, and a little bit of compromise” that led to the final agreement.I'm not going to be so diplomatic. Fighting dense, pedestrian-oriented development that could help reconfigure traffic patterns and housing availability in a region that is choking on ski traffic and drowning in housing costs is dumb. The systems for planning, approving, and building anything that is different from what already exists in this nation are profoundly broken. The primary issue is this: these anti-development crusaders position themselves as environmental defenders without acknowledging (or, more likely, realizing), that the existing traffic, blight, and high costs driving their resistance is a legacy of haphazard development in past decades, and that more thoughtful, human-centric projects could mitigate, rather than worsen, these concerns. The only thing an oppose-everything stance achieves is to push development farther out into the hinterlands, exacerbating sprawl and traffic.British Columbia is way ahead of us here. I've written about this extensively in the past, and won't belabor the point here except to cite what I wrote last year about the 3,711-home city sprouting from raw wilderness below Cypress Mountain, a Boyne-owned Ikon Pass partner just north of Vancouver:Mountain town housing is most often framed as an intractable problem, ingrown and malignant and impossible to reset or rethink or repair. Too hard to do. But it is not hard to do. It is the easiest thing in the world. To provide more housing, municipalities must allow developers to build more housing, and make them do it in a way that is dense and walkable, that is mixed with commerce, that gives people as many ways to move around without a car as possible.This is not some new or brilliant idea. This is simply how humans built villages for about 10,000 years, until the advent of the automobile. Then we started building our spaces for machines instead of for people. This was a mistake, and is the root problem of every mountain town housing crisis in North America. That and the fact that U.S. Americans make no distinction between the hyper-thoughtful new urbanist impulses described here and the sprawling shitpile of random buildings that are largely the backdrop of our national life. The very thing that would inject humanity into the mountains is recast as a corrupting force that would destroy a community's already-compromised-by-bad-design character.Not that it will matter to our impossible American brains, but Canada is about to show us how to do this. Over the next 25 years, a pocket of raw forest hard against Cypress' access road will sprout a city of 3,711 homes that will house thousands of people. It will be a human-scaled, pedestrian-first community, a city neighborhood dropped onto a mountainside. A gondola could connect the complex to Cypress' lifts thousands of feet up the mountain – more cars off the road. It would look like this (the potential aerial lift is not depicted here):Here's how the whole thing would set up against the mountain:And here's what it would be like at ground level:Like wow that actually resembles something that is not toxic to the human soul. But to a certain sort of Mother Earth evangelist, the mere suggestion of any sort of mountainside development is blasphemous. I understand this impulse, but I believe that it is misdirected, a too-late reflex against the subdivision-off-an-exit-ramp Build-A-Bungalow mentality that transformed this country into a car-first sprawlscape. I believe a reset is in order: to preserve large tracts of wilderness, we should intensely develop small pieces of land, and leave the rest alone. This is about to happen near Cypress. We should pay attention.Given the environmental community's reflexive and vociferous opposition to a recent proposal to repurpose tracts of not-necessarily-majestic wilderness for housing, I'm not optimistic that we possess the cultural brainpower to improve our own lives through policy. Which is why I've been writing more about passes and less about our collective ambitions to make everything from the base of the lifts outward as inconvenient and expensive as possible.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us for 20% off the annual rate through Monday, Oct. 27, 2025. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

Take 20% off an annual Storm subscription through 10/22/2025 to receive 100% of the newsletter's content. Thank you for your support of independent ski journalism.WhoPhill Gross, owner, and Mike Solimano, CEO of Killington and Pico, VermontRecorded onJuly 10, 2025About KillingtonClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Phill Gross and teamLocated in: Killington, VermontYear founded: 1958Pass affiliations: Ikon Pass: 5 or 7 combined days with PicoReciprocal partners: Pico access is included on all Killington passesClosest neighboring ski areas: Pico (:12), Saskadena Six (:39), Okemo (:40), Quechee (:44), Ascutney (:55), Storrs (:59), Harrington Hill (:59), Magic (1:00), Whaleback (1:02), Sugarbush (1:04), Bromley (1:04), Middlebury Snowbowl (1:08), Arrowhead (1:10), Mad River Glen (1:11)Base elevation: 1,165 feet at Skyeship BaseSummit elevation: 4,142 feet at top of K-1 gondola (hike-to summit of Killington Peak at 4,241 feet)Vertical drop: 2,977 feet lift-served, 3,076 hike-toSkiable Acres: 1,509Average annual snowfall: 250 inchesTrail count: 155 (43% advanced/expert, 40% intermediate, 17% beginner)Lift count: 20 (2 gondolas, 2 six-packs, 4 high-speed quads, 5 fixed-grip quads, 2 triples, 1 double, 1 platter, 3 carpets - view Lift Blog's inventory of Killington's lift fleet; Killington plans to replace the Snowdon triple with a fixed-grip quad for the 2026-27 ski season)History: from New England Ski HistoryAbout PicoClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Phill Gross and teamLocated in: Mendon, VermontYear founded: 1934Pass affiliations: Ikon Pass: 5 or 7 combined days with KillingtonReciprocal partners: Pico access is included on all Killington passes; four days Killington access included on Pico K.A. PassClosest neighboring ski areas: Killington (:12), Saskadena Six (:38), Okemo (:38), Quechee (:42), Ascutney (:53), Storrs (:57), Harrington Hill (:55), Magic (:58), Whaleback (1:00), Sugarbush (1:01), Bromley (1:00), Middlebury Snowbowl (1:01), Mad River Glen (1:07), Arrowhead (1:09)Base elevation: 2,000 feetSummit elevation: 3,967 feetVertical drop: 1,967 feetSkiable Acres: 468Average annual snowfall: 250 inchesTrail count: 58 (36% advanced/expert, 46% intermediate, 18% beginner)Lift count: 7 (2 high-speed quads, 2 triples, 1 doubles, 2 carpets - view Lift Blog's inventory of Pico's lift fleet)History: from New England Ski HistoryWhy I interviewed themThe longest-tenured non-government ski area operator in America, as far as I know, is the Seeholzer family, owner-operators of Beaver Mountain, Utah since 1939. Third-generation owner Travis Seeholzer came on the pod a few years back to trace the eight-decade arc from this dude flexing 10-foot-long kamikaze boards to the present:Just about every ski area in America was hacked out of the wilderness by Some Guy Who Looked Like That. Dave McCoy at Mammoth or Ernie Blake at Taos or Everett Kircher at Boyne Mountain, swarthy, willful fellows who flew airplanes and erected rudimentary chairlifts in impossible places and hammered together their own baselodges. Over decades they chiseled these mountains into their personal Rushmores, a life's work, a human soul knotted to nature in a built place that would endure for generations.It's possible that they all imagined their family name governing those generations. In the remarkable case of Boyne, they still do. But the Kirchers and the Seeholzers are ski-world exceptions. Successive generations are often uninterested in the chore of legacy building. Or they try and say wow this is expensive. Or bad weather leads to bad financial choices by our cigar-smoking, backhoe-driving, machete-wielding founder and his sons and daughters never get their chance. The ski area's deed shuffles into the portfolio of a Colorado Skico and McCoy fades a little each year and at some point Mammoth is just another ski area owned by Alterra Mountain Company.It's tempting to sentimentalize the past, to lament skiing's macro-transition from gritty network of founder-kingpin fifes to set of corporate brands, to conclude that “this generation” just doesn't have the tenacity of a Blake or a McCoy. But the America where a fellow could turn up with a dump truck and a chainsaw and flatten raw forest into a for-profit business with minimal protest is gone. Every part of the ski ecosystem is more regulated, complicated, and expensive than it's ever been. The appeal of running such a machine - and the skillset necessary to do so - is entirely different from that of sculpting your own personal snow Narnia from scratch. We will always have family-owned ski areas (we still have hundreds), and an occasional modern founder-disruptor like Mount Bohemia's Lonie Glieberman will materialize like a new X-man. But ski conglomerates have probably always been inevitable, and are probably largely the industry's future. They are best suited, in most cases, to manage, finance, and maintain the vast machinery of our largest ski centers (and also to create a ski landscape in which not all ski area operators are Some Guy Who Looked Like That).Killington demonstrates this arc from rambunctious founder to corporate vassal as well as any mountain in the country. Founded in 1958 by the wily and wild Pres Smith, the ski area's parent company, Sherburne Corp., bought Sunday River, Maine in 1973 and Mount Snow, Vermont in 1977. The two Vermont mountains became S-K-I in 1984, bought five more ski areas, and merged with four-resort LBO in 1996 to become the titanic American Skiing Company. Unfortunately ASC turned out to be skiing's Titanic, and one of the company's last acts before dissolution was to sell Killington and Pico to Utah-based Powdr in 2007.The Beast had been tamed, at least on paper. Corporate ownership of some sort felt as stapled to the mountain as Killington's 3,000 snowguns. And mostly, well, it didn't matter. Other than Powdr's disastrous attempts to shorten the resort's famously long seasons, Killington never lost its feisty edge. Over the decades the ski area modernized, masterplanned, and shed skier volume while increasing its viability as a business. Modern Killington wasn't the kingdom of a charismatic and ever-present founder, but it was a pretty good ski area.And then, suddenly, shockingly, Powdr sold both Killington and Pico last August. And they didn't sell the ski areas to Vail or Alterra or Boyne or to anyone who owned any ski areas at all. Instead, a group of local investors - led by Phill Gross and Michael Ferri, longtime Killington homeowners who ran a variety of non-ski-related businesses - bought the mountains. After 51 years as part of a multi-mountain ownership group, Killington (its relationship to neighboring Pico notwithstanding), was once again independent.It was all so improbable. Out-of-state operators had purchased five of Vermont's large ski areas in recent years: Colorado-based Vail Resorts bought Stowe in 2017, Okemo in 2018, and Mount Snow in 2019; Denver-based Alterra claimed Sugarbush in 2019; and Utah-based Pacific Group Resorts added Jay Peak to their small portfolio in 2022. Very few ski areas have ever entered the corporate matrix and re-emerged as independents. Grand Targhee, Wyoming; Waterville Valley, New Hampshire; and Mountain Creek, New Jersey (technically owned by multimountain operator Snow Partners) are exceptions spun off from larger companies. But mostly, once a larger entity absorbed a ski area, it stays locked in the multimountain universe forever.So what would this mean? For the largest and busiest mountain in the eastern United States to be independent? Did this, along with Powdr's intentions to sell Mount Bachelor (since rescinded), Eldora (sale in process), and Silver Star (no update), mark a reversal in the consolidation trend that had gathered 30 percent of America's ski areas under the umbrella of a multi-mountain operator? Did Killington's group of wealthy-but-not-Bezos-wealthy investors set an alternate blueprint for large-mountain ownership, especially when considered alongside the sale of Jackson Hole to a similar group the year before? Had the Ikon Pass – that harbinger of mass-market pass domination that had forced the we-better-join-them sales of Crystal Mountain, Washington and Sugarbush – inadvertently become a reliable revenue pipeline that made independence more viable? And would Killington, well-managed and constantly improving, backslide under cowboy owners who want to Q-Burke the place in their image?We're a year in now, and we have some clarity on these questions, along with two new chairlifts (Superstar this year, Snowdon next), 1,000 new snowguns, a revitalized Skyeship Gondola, and progressing plans on the East's first true ski village. Locals seem happy, management seems happy, the owners seem happy. Easy enough, Gross points out in our interview, when winter hits deep like the last one did. But can we keep the party going indefinitely? It was time for a check-in.What we talked aboutA strong first winter under independent ownership; what spring skiing off Canyon lift told us about the importance of Superstar; “it's an incredibly complex operation”; letting the smart people do their jobs; Killington's surprise spin-off from a multi-mountain operator; “our job is to keep the honeymoon going”; Superstar's six-pack upgrade; why six-packs are probably Killington's lift-upgrade future; why Pico is demolishing the Bonanza lift for a covered carpet; why Superstar won't have bubbles; where bubbles might make sense in a future lift; why ski areas can no longer run snowmaking under newly constructed chairlifts; why Superstar is a Doppelmayr machine after Killington installed a brand-new Leitner-Poma six at Snowdon in 2018; long- and short-term Superstar impacts to Killington's long season; long-term thoughts around early-season walkway access to North Ridge; Skyeship Gondola upgrades, including $5 million in new cabins; what 1,000 new snowguns means in practice; why Killington sold the Wobbly Barn; considering Killington as a business and investment; how Killington is a different financial beast from other Vermont ski areas; how close Killington was to going unlimited on Ikon Pass; Phill's journey to buying Killington; Devil's Fiddle and why sometimes things that don't make sense financially make sense anyway; “we want to own this for generations to come”; a village layout and timeline update – “we want to make sure that this is something that's additive to the ski experience” even if you don't own within it; “Great Gulf wants this [village] to be competitive for the western resorts”; “we don't want to change what Pico is”; how piping water over from Killington has reinvigorated and stabilized Pico; why Killington and Pico remained on Ikon Pass post-sale and probably will for the foreseeable future; is Ikon helping big ski areas stay independent?; Killington's steady rise in lift ticket prices; future lift upgrades and why the Snowdon Triple is next up for a replacement.What I got wrong* File “opinionation” under LOL I'm Dumb Talking Is Hard* I said that former Killington owner Powdr had “just sold” Eldora, but that's not accurate: in July, the town of Nederland, Colorado, announced their intent to purchase the ski area. The sales process is ongoing.Podcast NotesOn previous Killington podsOn Gross' purchase of Killington and PicoOn ANSI chairlift standardsWe get a bit in the weeds with a reference to “ANSI standards” for chairlifts. ANSI is the American National Standards Institute, a nonprofit organization that sets voluntary but widely adopted standards for everything from office furniture to electrical systems to safety signage in the United States. The ANSI standard for lifts, according to a blog post describing the code's 2022 update, is “developed by the National Ski Areas Association (NSAA), [and] establishes standard requirements for the design, manufacture, construction, operation, and maintenance of passenger ropeways.” On Killington's long seasonsKillington often opens in October (though it has not done so since 2018), and closes in June (three straight years before a deliberately truncated 2024-25 season to begin demolition of the Superstar chair). List of Killington open and close dates since 1987-88.On Win Smith and Killington and SugarbushOn Killington's villageThe East needs more of this:On Killington's peak lift ticket pricesPer New England Ski History:The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

WhoAlan Henceroth, President and Chief Operating Officer of Arapahoe Basin, Colorado – Al runs the best ski area-specific executive blog in America – check it out:Recorded onMay 19, 2025About Arapahoe BasinClick here for a mountain stats overviewOwned by: Alterra Mountain Company, which also owns:Pass access* Ikon Pass: unlimited* Ikon Base Pass: unlimited access from opening day to Friday, Dec. 19, then five total days with no blackouts from Dec. 20 until closing day 2026Base elevation* 10,520 feet at bottom of Steep Gullies* 10,780 feet at main baseSummit elevation* 13,204 feet at top of Lenawee Mountain on East Wall* 12,478 feet at top of Lazy J Tow (connector between Lenawee Express six-pack and Zuma quad)Vertical drop* 1,695 feet lift-served – top of Lazy J Tow to main base* 1,955 feet lift-served, with hike back up to lifts – top of Lazy J Tow to bottom of Steep Gullies* 2,424 feet hike-to – top of Lenawee Mountain to Main BaseSkiable Acres: 1,428Average annual snowfall:* Claimed: 350 inches* Bestsnow.net: 308 inchesTrail count: 147 – approximate terrain breakdown: 24% double-black, 49% black, 20% intermediate, 7% beginnerLift count: 9 (1 six-pack, 1 high-speed quad, 3 fixed-grip quads, 1 double, 2 carpets, 1 ropetow)Why I interviewed himWe can generally splice U.S. ski centers into two categories: ski resort and ski area. I'll often use these terms interchangeably to avoid repetition, but they describe two very different things. The main distinction: ski areas rise directly from parking lots edged by a handful of bunched utilitarian structures, while ski resorts push parking lots into the next zipcode to accommodate slopeside lodging and commerce.There are a lot more ski areas than ski resorts, and a handful of the latter present like the former, with accommodations slightly off-hill (Sun Valley) or anchored in a near-enough town (Bachelor). But mostly the distinction is clear, with the defining question being this: is this a mountain that people will travel around the world to ski, or one they won't travel more than an hour to ski?Arapahoe Basin occupies a strange middle. Nothing in the mountain's statistical profile suggests that it should be anything other than a Summit County locals hang. It is the 16th-largest ski area in Colorado by skiable acres, the 18th-tallest by lift-served vertical drop, and the eighth-snowiest by average annual snowfall. The mountain runs just six chairlifts and only two detachables. Beginner terrain is limited. A-Basin has no base area lodging, and in fact not much of a base area at all. Altitude, already an issue for the Colorado ski tourist, is amplified here, where the lifts spin from nearly 11,000 feet. A-Basin should, like Bridger Bowl in Montana (upstream from Big Sky) or Red River in New Mexico (across the mountain from Taos) or Sunlight in Colorado (parked between Aspen and I-70), be mostly unknown beside its heralded big-name neighbors (Keystone, Breck, Copper).And it sort of is, but also sort of isn't. Like tiny (826-acre) Aspen Mountain, A-Basin transcends its statistical profile. Skiers know it, seek it, travel for it, cross it off their lists like a snowy Eiffel Tower. Unlike Aspen, A-Basin has no posse of support mountains, no grided downtown spilling off the lifts, no Kleenex-level brand that stands in for skiing among non-skiers. And yet Vail tried buying the bump in 1997, and Alterra finally did in 2024. Meanwhile, nearby Loveland, bigger, taller, snowier, higher, easier to access with its trip-off-the-interstate parking lots, is still ignored by tourists and conglomerates alike.Weird. What explains A-Basin's pull? Onetime and future Storm guest Jackson Hogen offers, in his Snowbird Secrets book, an anthropomorphic explanation for that Utah powder dump's aura: As it turns out, everyone has a story for how they came to discover Snowbird, but no one knows the reason. Some have the vanity to think they picked the place, but the wisest know the place picked them.That is the secret that Snowbird has slipped into our subconscious; deep down, we know we were summoned here. We just have to be reminded of it to remember, an echo of the Platonic notion that all knowledge is remembrance. In the modern world we are so divorced from our natural selves that you would think we'd have lost the power to hear a mountain call us. And indeed we have, but such is the enormous reach of this place that it can still stir the last seed within us that connects us to the energy that surrounds us every day yet we do not see. The resonance of that tiny, vibrating seed is what brings us here, to this extraordinary place, to stand in the heart of the energy flow.Yeah I don't know, Man. We're drifting into horoscope territory here. But I also can't explain why we all like to do This Dumb Thing so much that we'll wrap our whole lives around it. So if there is some universe force, what Hogen calls “vibrations” from Hidden Peak's quartz, drawing skiers to Snowbird, could there also be some proton-kryptonite-laserbeam s**t sucking us all toward A-Basin? If there's a better explanation, I haven't found it.What we talked aboutThe Beach; keeping A-Basin's whole ski footprint open into May; Alterra buys the bump – “we really liked the way Alterra was doing things… and letting the resorts retain their identity”; the legacy of former owner Dream; how hardcore, no-frills ski area A-Basin fits into an Alterra portfolio that includes high-end resorts such as Deer Valley and Steamboat; “you'd be surprised how many people from out of state ski here too”; Ikon as Colorado sampler pack (or not); local reaction to Alterra's purchase – “I think it's fair that there was anxiety”; balancing the wild ski cycle of over-the-top peak days and soft periods; parking reservations; going unlimited on the full Ikon Pass and how parking reservations play in – “we spent a ridiculous amount of time talking about it”; the huge price difference between Epic and Ikon and how that factors into the access calculus; why A-Basin still sells a single-mountain season pass; whether reciprocal partnerships with Monarch and Silverton will remain in place; “I've been amazed at how few things I've been told to do” by Alterra; A-Basin's dirt-cheap early-season pass; why early season is “a more competitive time” than it used to be; why A-Basin left Mountain Collective; Justice Department anti-trust concerns around Alterra's A-Basin purchase – “it never was clear to me what the concerns were”; breaking down A-Basin's latest U.S. Forest Service masterplan – “everything in there, we hope to do”; a parking lot pulse gondola and why that makes sense over shuttles; why A-Basin plans a two-lift system of beginner machines; why should A-Basin care about beginner terrain?; is beginner development is related to Ikon Pass membership?; what it means that the MDP designs for 700 more skiers per day; assessing the Lenawee Express sixer three seasons in; why A-Basin sold the old Lenawee lift to independent Sunlight, Colorado; A-Basin's patrol unionizing; and 100 percent renewable energy.What I got wrong* I said that A-Basin was the only mountain that had been caught up in antitrust issues, but that's inaccurate: when S-K-I and LBO Enterprises merged into American Skiing Company in 1996, the U.S. Justice Department compelled the combined company to sell Cranmore and Waterville Valley, both in New Hampshire. Waterville Valley remains independent. Cranmore stayed independent for a while, and has since 2010 been owned by Fairbank Group, which also owns Jiminy Peak in Massachusetts and operates Bromley, Vermont.* I said that A-Basin's $259 early-season pass, good for unlimited access from opening day through Dec. 25, “was like one day at Vail,” which is sort of true and sort of not. Vail Mountain's day-of lift ticket will hit $230 from Nov. 14 to Dec. 11, then increase to $307 or $335 every day through Christmas. All Resorts Epic Day passes, which would get skiers on the hill for any of those dates, currently sell for between $106 and $128 per day. Unlimited access to Vail Mountain for that full early-season period would require a full Epic Pass, currently priced at $1,121.* This doesn't contradict anything we discussed, but it's worth noting some parking reservations changes that A-Basin implemented following our conversation. Reservations will now be required on weekends only, and from Jan. 3 to May 3, a reduction from 48 dates last winter to 36 for this season. The mountain will also allow skiers to hold four reservations at once, doubling last year's limit of two.Why now was a good time for this interviewOne of the most striking attributes of modern lift-served skiing is how radically different each ski area is. Panic over corporate hegemony power-stamping each child mountain into snowy McDonald's clones rarely survives past the parking lot. Underscoring the point is neighboring ski areas, all over America, that despite the mutually intelligible languages of trail ratings and patrol uniforms and lift and snowgun furniture, and despite sharing weather patterns and geologic origins and local skier pools, feel whole-cut from different eras, cultures, and imaginations. The gates between Alta and Snowbird present like connector doors between adjoining hotel rooms but actualize as cross-dimensional Mario warpzones. The 2.4-mile gondola strung between the Alpine Meadows and Olympic sides of Palisades Tahoe may as well connect a baseball stadium with an opera house. Crossing the half mile or so between the summits of Sterling at Smugglers' Notch and Spruce Peak at Stowe is a journey of 15 minutes and five decades. And Arapahoe Basin, elder brother of next-door Keystone, resembles its larger neighbor like a bat resembles a giraffe: both mammals, but of entirely different sorts. Same with Sugarbush and Mad River Glen, Vermont; Sugar Bowl, Donner Ski Ranch, and Boreal, California; Park City and Deer Valley, Utah; Killington and Pico, Vermont; Highlands and Nub's Nob, Michigan; Canaan Valley and Timberline and Nordic-hybrid White Grass, West Virginia; Aspen's four Colorado ski areas; the three ski areas sprawling across Mt. Hood's south flank; and Alpental and its clump of Snoqualmie sisters across the Washington interstate. Proximity does not equal sameness.One of The Storm's preoccupations is with why this is so. For all their call-to-nature appeal, ski areas are profoundly human creations, more city park than wildlife preserve. They are sculpted, managed, manicured. Even the wildest-feeling among them – Mount Bohemia, Silverton, Mad River Glen – are obsessively tended to, ragged by design.A-Basin pulls an even neater trick: a brand curated for rugged appeal, scaffolded by brand-new high-speed lifts and a self-described “luxurious European-style bistro.” That the Alterra Mountain Company-owned, megapass pioneer floating in the busiest ski county in the busiest ski state in America managed to retain its rowdy rap even as the onetime fleet of bar-free double chairs toppled into the recycling bin is a triumph of branding.But also a triumph of heart. A-Basin as Colorado's Alta or Taos or Palisades is a title easily ceded to Telluride or Aspen Highlands, similarly tilted high-alpiners. But here it is, right beside buffed-out Keystone, a misunderstood mountain with its own wild side but a fair-enough rap as an approachable landing zone for first-time Rocky Mountain explorers westbound out of New York or Ohio. Why are A-Basin and Keystone so different? The blunt drama of A-Basin's hike-in terrain helps, but it's more enforcer than explainer. The real difference, I believe, is grounded in the conductor orchestrating this mad dance.Since Henceroth sat down in the COO chair 20 years ago, Keystone has had nine president-general manager equivalents. A-Basin was already 61 years old in 2005, giving it a nice branding headstart on younger Keystone, born in 1970. But both had spent nearly two decades, from 1978 to 1997, co-owned by a dogfood conglomerate that often marketed them as one resort, and the pair stayed glued together on a multimountain pass for a couple of decades afterward.Henceroth, with support and guidance from the real-estate giant that owned A-Basin in the Ralston-Purina-to-Alterra interim, had a series of choices to make. A-Basin had only recently installed snowmaking. There was no lift access to Zuma Bowl, no Beavers. The lift system consisted of three double chairs and two triples. Did this aesthetic minimalism and pseudo-independence define A-Basin? Or did the mountain, shaped by the generations of leaders before Henceroth, hold some intangible energy and pull, that thing we recognize as atmosphere, culture, vibe? Would The Legend lose its duct-taped edge if it:* Expanded 400 mostly low-angle acres into Zuma Bowl (2007)* Joined Vail Resorts' Epic Pass (2009)* Installed the mountain's first high-speed lift (Black Mountain Express in 2010)* Expand 339 additional acres into the Beavers (2018), and service that terrain with an atypical-for-Colorado 1,501-vertical-foot fixed-grip lift* Exit the Epic Pass following the 2018-19 ski season* Immediately join Mountain Collective and Ikon as a multimountain replacement (2019)* Ditch a 21-year-old triple chair for the mountain's first high-speed six-pack (2022)* Sell to Alterra Mountain Company (2024)* Require paid parking reservations on high-volume days (2024)* Go unlimited on the Ikon Pass and exit Mountain Collective (2025)* Release an updated USFS masterplan that focuses largely on the novice ski experience (2025)That's a lot of change. A skier booted through time from Y2K to October 2025 would examine that list and conclude that Rad Basin had been tamed. But ski a dozen laps and they'd say well not really. Those multimillion upgrades were leashed by something priceless, something human, something that kept them from defining what the mountain is. There's some indecipherable alchemy here, a thing maybe not quite as durable as the mountain itself, but rooted deeper than the lift towers strung along it. It takes a skilled chemist to cook this recipe, and while they'll never reveal every secret, you can visit the restaurant as many times as you'd like.Why you should ski Arapahoe BasinWe could do a million but here are nine:1) $: Two months of early-season skiing costs roughly the same as A-Basin's neighbors charge for a single day. A-Basin's $259 fall pass is unlimited from opening day through Dec. 25, cheaper than a Dec. 20 day-of lift ticket at Breck ($281), Vail ($335), Beaver Creek ($335), or Copper ($274), and not much more than Keystone ($243). 2) Pali: When A-Basin tore down the 1,329-vertical-foot, 3,520-foot-long Pallavicini double chair, a 1978 Yan, in 2020, they replaced it with a 1,325-vertical-foot, 3,512-foot-long Leitner-Poma double chair. It's one of just a handful of new doubles installed in America over the past decade, underscoring a rare-in-modern-skiing commitment to atmosphere, experience, and snow preservation over uphill capacity. 3) The newest lift fleet in the West: The oldest of A-Basin's six chairlifts, Zuma, arrived brand-new in 2007.4) Wall-to-wall: when I flew into Colorado for a May 2025 wind-down, five ski areas remained open. Despite solid snowpack, Copper, Breck, and Winter Park all spun a handful of lifts on a constrained footprint. But A-Basin and Loveland still ran every lift, even over the Monday-to-Thursday timeframe of my visit.5) The East Wall: It's like this whole extra ski area. Not my deal as even skiing downhill at 12,500 feet hurts, but some of you like this s**t:6) May pow: I mean yeah I did kinda just get lucky but damn these were some of the best turns I found all year (skiing with A-Basin Communications Manager Shayna Silverman):7) The Beach: the best ski area tailgate in North America (sorry, no pet dragons allowed - don't shoot the messenger):8) The Beavers: Just glades and glades and glades (a little crunchy on this run, but better higher up and the following day):9) It's a ski area first: In a county of ski resorts, A-Basin is a parking-lots-at-the-bottom-and-not-much-else ski area. It's spare, sparse, high, steep, and largely exposed. Skiers are better at self-selecting than we suppose, meaning the ability level of the average A-Basin skier is more Cottonwoods than Connecticut. That impacts your day in everything from how the liftlines flow to how the bumps form to how many zigzaggers you have to dodge on the down.Podcast NotesOn the dates of my visit We reference my last A-Basin visit quite a bit – for context, I skied there May 6 and 7, 2025. Both nice late-season pow days.On A-Basin's long seasonsIt's surprisingly difficult to find accurate open and close date information for most ski areas, especially before 2010 or so, but here's what I could cobble together for A-Basin - please let me know if you have a more extensive list, or if any of this is wrong:On A-Basin's ownership timelineArapahoe Basin probably gets too much credit for being some rugged indie. Ralston-Purina, then-owners of Keystone, purchased A-Basin in 1978, then added Breckenridge to the group in 1993 before selling the whole picnic basket to Vail in 1997. The U.S. Justice Department wouldn't let the Eagle County operator have all three, so Vail flipped Arapahoe to a Canadian real estate empire, then called Dundee, some months later. That company, which at some point re-named itself Dream, pumped a zillion dollars into the mountain before handing it off to Alterra last year.On A-Basin leaving Epic PassA-Basin self-ejected from Epic Pass in 2019, just after Vail maxed out Colorado by purchasing Crested Butte and before they fully invaded the East with the Peak Resorts purchase. Arapahoe Basin promptly joined Mountain Collective and Ikon, swapping unlimited-access on four varieties of Epic Pass for limited-days products. Henceroth and I talked this one out during our 2022 pod, and it's a fascinating case study in building a better business by decreasing volume.On the price difference between Ikon and Epic with A-Basin accessConcerns about A-Basin hurdling back toward the overcrowded Epic days by switching to Ikon's unlimited tier tend to overlook this crucial distinction: Vail sold a 2018-19 version of the Epic Pass that included unlimited access to Keystone and A-Basin for an early-bird rate of $349. The full 2025-26 Ikon Pass debuted at nearly four times that, retailing for $1,329, and just ramped up to $1,519.On Alterra mountains with their own season passesWhile all Alterra-owned ski areas (with the exception of Deer Valley), are unlimited on the full Ikon Pass and nine are unlimited with no blackouts on Ikon Base, seven of those sell their own unlimited season pass that costs less than Base. The sole unlimited season pass for Crystal, Mammoth, Palisades Tahoe, Steamboat, Stratton, and Sugarbush is a full Ikon Pass, and the least-expensive unlimited season pass for Solitude is the Ikon Base. Deer Valley leads the nation with its $4,100 unlimited season pass. See the Alterra chart at the top of this article for current season pass prices to all of the company's mountains.On A-Basin and Schweitzer pass partnershipsAlterra has been pretty good about permitting its owned ski areas to retain historic reciprocal partners on their single-mountain season passes. For A-Basin, this means three no-blackout days at Monarch and two unguided days at Silverton. Up at Schweitzer, passholders get three midweek days each at Whitewater, Mt. Hood Meadows, Castle Mountain, Loveland, and Whitefish. None of these ski areas are on Ikon Pass, and the benefit is only stapled to A-Basin- or Schweitzer-specific season passes.On the Mountain Collective eventI talk about Mountain Collective as skiing's most exclusive country club. Nothing better demonstrates that characterization than this podcast I recorded at the event last fall, when in around 90 minutes I had conversations with the top leaders of Boyne Resorts, Snowbird, Aspen, Jackson Hole, Sun Valley, Snowbasin, Grand Targhee, and many more.On Mountain Collective and Ikon overlapThe Mountain Collective-Ikon overlap is kinda nutso:On Pennsylvania skiingIn regards to the U.S. Justice Department grilling Alterra on its A-Basin acquisition, it's still pretty stupid that the agency allowed Vail Resorts to purchase eight of the 19 public chairlift-served ski areas in Pennsylvania without a whisper of protest. These eight ski areas almost certainly account for more than half of all skier visits in a state that typically ranks sixth nationally for attendance. Last winter, the state's 2.6 million skier visits accounted for more days than vaunted ski states New Hampshire (2.4 million), Washington (2.3), Montana (2.2), Idaho (2.1). or Oregon (2.0). Only New York (3.4), Vermont (4.2), Utah (6.5), California (6.6), and Colorado (13.9) racked up more.On A-Basin's USFS masterplanNothing on the scale of Zuma or Beavers inbound, but the proposed changes would tap novice terrain that has always existed but never offered a good access point for beginners:On pulse gondolasA-Basin's proposed pulse gondola, should it be built, would be just the sixth such lift in America, joining machines at Taos, Northstar, Steamboat, Park City, and Snowmass. Loon plans to build a pulse gondola in 2026.On mid-mountain beginner centersBig bad ski resorts have attempted to amp up family appeal in recent years with gondola-serviced mid-mountain beginner centers, which open gentle, previously hard-to-access terrain to beginners. This was the purpose of mid-stations off Jackson Hole's Sweetwater Gondola and Big Sky's new-for-this-year Explorer Gondola. A-Basin's gondy (not the parking lot pulse gondola, but the one terminating at Sawmill Flats in the masterplan image above), would provide up and down lift access allowing greenies to lap the new detach quad above it.The Storm explores the world of lift-served skiing year-round. Join us. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe