Podcasts about supabase

For the full experience, watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0j_n3OOM7c Episode 712: Sam Parr ( https://x.com/theSamParr ) talks to Greg Isenberg ( https://x.com/gregisenberg ) talk about how to find a startup idea and build it in a couple hours using AI.  — Show Notes: (0:00) Step 1: Find an idea (7:57) Step 2: Sketch out the idea (9:48) Step 3: Scope out the MVP (18:25) Step 4: Vibe code a prototype (36:06) Step 5: Vibe marketing the business (49:14) Step 6: AI agent product manager — Links: • Want Greg's guide to Build an AI Startup in 3 Hours with

In 2020, when open source database Supabase was founded, its New Zealand-based CEO, Paul Copplestone, couldn't have imagined it would be sitting in the sweet spot for 2025's biggest trend: vibe coding.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

News includes a new Elixir case study about Cyanview's camera shading technology used at major events like the Olympics and Super Bowl, Oban Pro 1.6 with 20x faster queue partitioning, the openid_connect package reaching version 1.0, Supabase's new Postgres Language Server for developer tooling, and ElixirEvents.net as a community resource. Plus, we interview Michael Lubas, founder of Paraxial.io, about web application security in Elixir, what's involved in a security audit, and how his Elixir-focused security company is helping teams and businesses in the community. Show Notes online - http://podcast.thinkingelixir.com/248 (http://podcast.thinkingelixir.com/248) Elixir Community News https://elixir-lang.org/blog/2025/03/25/cyanview-elixir-case/ (https://elixir-lang.org/blog/2025/03/25/cyanview-elixir-case/?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – New Elixir case study about Cyanview, a Belgian company whose Remote Control Panel for camera shading is used at major events like the Olympics and Super Bowl. Their Elixir-powered solution enables remote camera control across challenging network conditions. https://oban.pro/docs/pro/1.6.0-rc.1/changelog.html (https://oban.pro/docs/pro/1.6.0-rc.1/changelog.html?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Oban Pro 1.6 released with subworkflows, improved queue partitioning (20x faster), and a new guide explaining different job composition approaches. https://oban.pro/docs/pro/1.6.0-rc.1/composition.html (https://oban.pro/docs/pro/1.6.0-rc.1/composition.html?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – New Oban Pro guide explaining when to use chains, workflows, chunks, or batches for job composition. https://github.com/DockYard/openid_connect (https://github.com/DockYard/openid_connect?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – The Elixir package 'openid_connect' reached version 1.0, providing client library support for working with various OpenID Connect providers like Google, Microsoft Azure AD, Auth0, and others. https://hexdocs.pm/openid_connect/readme.html (https://hexdocs.pm/openid_connect/readme.html?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Documentation for the newly released openid_connect 1.0 package. https://bsky.app/profile/davelucia.com/post/3llqwsbyutc2z (https://bsky.app/profile/davelucia.com/post/3llqwsbyutc2z?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Announcement that openid_connect is maintained by tvlabs. https://bsky.app/profile/germsvel.com/post/3llee5lyerk2b (https://bsky.app/profile/germsvel.com/post/3llee5lyerk2b?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – PhoenixTest v0.6.0 has been released with significant changes, including a breaking change. https://github.com/germsvel/phoenix_test (https://github.com/germsvel/phoenix_test?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – GitHub repository for PhoenixTest. https://hexdocs.pm/phoenixtest/upgradeguides.html#upgrading-to-0-6-0 (https://hexdocs.pm/phoenix_test/upgrade_guides.html#upgrading-to-0-6-0?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Upgrade guide for updating to PhoenixTest v0.6.0 with its breaking change. https://hexdocs.pm/phoenix_test/changelog.html#0-6-0 (https://hexdocs.pm/phoenix_test/changelog.html#0-6-0?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Changelog for PhoenixTest v0.6.0. https://supabase.com/blog/postgres-language-server (https://supabase.com/blog/postgres-language-server?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Supabase has released a new Postgres Language Server for developers, providing IDE intellisense and autocomplete for PostgreSQL. https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=Supabase.postgrestools (https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=Supabase.postgrestools?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – VSCode extension for Supabase's new Postgres developer tools. https://github.com/supabase-community/postgres-language-server (https://github.com/supabase-community/postgres-language-server?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – GitHub repository for Supabase's Postgres Language Server. https://pgtools.dev/ (https://pgtools.dev/?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Official website for Postgres Tools with documentation and features. https://pgtools.dev/checking_migrations/ (https://pgtools.dev/checking_migrations/?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Feature in Postgres Tools that lints database migrations to check for problematic schema changes. https://github.com/fly-apps/safe-ecto-migrations (https://github.com/fly-apps/safe-ecto-migrations?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Resource for ensuring safe Ecto migrations. https://fly.io/phoenix-files/safe-ecto-migrations/ (https://fly.io/phoenix-files/safe-ecto-migrations/?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Article about safe Ecto migrations posted on Fly.io. https://elixirevents.net/ (https://elixirevents.net/?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Community resource created by Johanna Larsson for tracking, sharing, and learning about Elixir events worldwide. https://bsky.app/profile/elixirevents.net (https://bsky.app/profile/elixirevents.net?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Bluesky account for ElixirEvents.net for following Elixir community events. Do you have some Elixir news to share? Tell us at @ThinkingElixir (https://twitter.com/ThinkingElixir) or email at show@thinkingelixir.com (mailto:show@thinkingelixir.com) Discussion Resources https://paraxial.io/ (https://paraxial.io/?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) https://paraxial.io/blog/index (https://paraxial.io/blog/index?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Blog with posts about security for Elixir, Rails, and the Paraxial service https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/18/tech/google-wiz-acquisition/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/18/tech/google-wiz-acquisition/index.html?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) https://podcast.thinkingelixir.com/93 (https://podcast.thinkingelixir.com/93?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Our last discussion was 3 years ago in episode 93! Titled "Preventing Service Abuse with Michael Lubas" https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Revolutionary-Change-Business/dp/0062060244 (https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Revolutionary-Change-Business/dp/0062060244?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Kafkaesque - having a nightmarishly complex, bizarre, or illogical quality (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Kafkaesque - having a nightmarishly complex, bizarre, or illogical quality?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) https://paraxial.io/blog/oban-pentest (https://paraxial.io/blog/oban-pentest?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Completed a Security Audit of Oban Pro - this is after ObanPro went free and OpenSource https://paraxial.io/blog/elixir-best (https://paraxial.io/blog/elixir-best?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Elixir and Phoenix Security Checklist: 11 Best Practices https://paraxial.io/blog/rails-command-injection (https://paraxial.io/blog/rails-command-injection?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Ruby on Rails Security: Preventing Command Injection https://paraxial.io/blog/paraxial-three (https://paraxial.io/blog/paraxial-three?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Paraxial.io v3 blog post Guest Information - Michael Lubas, Paraxial.io Founder - michael@paraxial.io - https://x.com/paraxialio (https://x.com/paraxialio?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – on Twitter/X - https://x.com/paraxialio (https://x.com/paraxialio?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – on Twitter/X - https://github.com/paraxialio/ (https://github.com/paraxialio/?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – on Github - https://www.youtube.com/@paraxial5874 (https://www.youtube.com/@paraxial5874?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Paraxial.io channel on YouTube - https://genserver.social/paraxial (https://genserver.social/paraxial?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – on Fediverse - https://paraxial.io/ (https://paraxial.io/?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Blog Find us online - Message the show - Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/thinkingelixir.com) - Message the show - X (https://x.com/ThinkingElixir) - Message the show on Fediverse - @ThinkingElixir@genserver.social (https://genserver.social/ThinkingElixir) - Email the show - show@thinkingelixir.com (mailto:show@thinkingelixir.com) - Mark Ericksen on X - @brainlid (https://x.com/brainlid) - Mark Ericksen on Bluesky - @brainlid.bsky.social (https://bsky.app/profile/brainlid.bsky.social) - Mark Ericksen on Fediverse - @brainlid@genserver.social (https://genserver.social/brainlid) - David Bernheisel on Bluesky - @david.bernheisel.com (https://bsky.app/profile/david.bernheisel.com) - David Bernheisel on Fediverse - @dbern@genserver.social (https://genserver.social/dbern)

Brandon Liu is an open source developer and creator of the Protomaps basemap project. We talk about how static maps help developers build sites that last, the PMTiles file format, the role of OpenStreetMap, and his experience funding and running an open source project full time. Protomaps Protomaps PMTiles (File format used by Protomaps) Self-hosted slippy maps, for novices (like me) Why Deploy Protomaps on a CDN User examples Flickr Pinball Map Toilet Map Related projects OpenStreetMap (Dataset protomaps is based on) Mapzen (Former company that released details on what to display based on zoom levels) Mapbox GL JS (Mapbox developed source available map rendering library) MapLibre GL JS (Open source fork of Mapbox GL JS) Other links HTTP range requests (MDN) Hilbert curve Transcript You can help correct transcripts on GitHub. Intro [00:00:00] Jeremy: I'm talking to Brandon Liu. He's the creator of Protomaps, which is a way to easily create and host your own maps. Let's get into it. [00:00:09] Brandon: Hey, so thanks for having me on the podcast. So I'm Brandon. I work on an open source project called Protomaps. What it really is, is if you're a front end developer and you ever wanted to put maps on a website or on a mobile app, then Protomaps is sort of an open source solution for doing that that I hope is something that's way easier to use than, um, a lot of other open source projects. Why not just use Google Maps? [00:00:36] Jeremy: A lot of people are gonna be familiar with Google Maps. Why should they worry about whether something's open source? Why shouldn't they just go and use the Google maps API? [00:00:47] Brandon: So Google Maps is like an awesome thing it's an awesome product. Probably one of the best tech products ever right? And just to have a map that tells you what restaurants are open and something that I use like all the time especially like when you're traveling it has all that data. And the most amazing part is that it's free for consumers but it's not necessarily free for developers. Like if you wanted to embed that map onto your website or app, that usually has an API cost which still has a free tier and is affordable. But one motivation, one basic reason to use open source is if you have some project that doesn't really fit into that pricing model. You know like where you have to pay the cost of Google Maps, you have a side project, a nonprofit, that's one reason. But there's lots of other reasons related to flexibility or customization where you might want to use open source instead. Protomaps examples [00:01:49] Jeremy: Can you give some examples where people have used Protomaps and where that made sense for them? [00:01:56] Brandon: I follow a lot of the use cases and I also don't know about a lot of them because I don't have an API where I can track a hundred percent of the users. Some of them use the hosted version, but I would say most of them probably use it on their own infrastructure. One of the cool projects I've been seeing is called Toilet Map. And what toilet map is if you're in the UK and you want find a public restroom then it maps out, sort of crowdsourced all of the public restrooms. And that's important for like a lot of people if they have health issues, they need to find that information. And just a lot of different projects in the same vein. There's another one called Pinball Map which is sort of a hobby project to find all the pinball machines in the world. And they wanted to have a customized map that fit in with their theme of pinball. So these sorts of really cool indie projects are the ones I'm most excited about. Basemaps vs Overlays [00:02:57] Jeremy: And if we talk about, like the pinball map as an example, there's this concept of a basemap and then there's the things that you lay on top of it. What is a basemap and then is the pinball locations is that part of it or is that something separate? [00:03:12] Brandon: It's usually something separate. The example I usually use is if you go to a real estate site, like Zillow, you'll open up the map of Seattle and it has a bunch of pins showing all the houses, and then it has some information beneath it. That information beneath it is like labels telling, this neighborhood is Capitol Hill, or there is a park here. But all that information is common to a lot of use cases and it's not specific to real estate. So I think usually that's the distinction people use in the industry between like a base map versus your overlay. The overlay is like the data for your product or your company while the base map is something you could get from Google or from Protomaps or from Apple or from Mapbox that kind of thing. PMTiles for hosting the basemap and overlays [00:03:58] Jeremy: And so Protomaps in particular is responsible for the base map, and that information includes things like the streets and the locations of landmarks and things like that. Where is all that information coming from? [00:04:12] Brandon: So the base map information comes from a project called OpenStreetMap. And I would also, point out that for Protomaps as sort of an ecosystem. You can also put your overlay data into a format called PMTiles, which is sort of the core of what Protomaps is. So it can really do both. It can transform your data into the PMTiles format which you can host and you can also host the base map. So you kind of have both of those sides of the product in one solution. [00:04:43] Jeremy: And so when you say you have both are you saying that the PMTiles file can have, the base map in one file and then you would have the data you're laying on top in another file? Or what are you describing there? [00:04:57] Brandon: That's usually how I recommend to do it. Oftentimes there'll be sort of like, a really big basemap 'cause it has all of that data about like where the rivers are. Or while, if you want to put your map of toilets or park benches or pickleball courts on top, that's another file. But those are all just like assets you can move around like JSON or CSV files. Statically Hosted [00:05:19] Jeremy: And I think one of the things you mentioned was that your goal was to make Protomaps or the, the use of these PMTiles files easy to use. What does that look like for, for a developer? I wanna host a map. What do I actually need to, to put on my servers? [00:05:38] Brandon: So my usual pitch is that basically if you know how to use S3 or cloud storage, that you know how to deploy a map. And that, I think is the main sort of differentiation from most open source projects. Like a lot of them, they call themselves like, like some sort of self-hosted solution. But I've actually avoided using the term self-hosted because I think in most cases that implies a lot of complexity. Like you have to log into a Linux server or you have to use Kubernetes or some sort of Docker thing. What I really want to emphasize is the idea that, for Protomaps, it's self-hosted in the same way like CSS is self-hosted. So you don't really need a service from Amazon to host the JSON files or CSV files. It's really just a static file. [00:06:32] Jeremy: When you say static file that means you could use any static web host to host your HTML file, your JavaScript that actually renders the map. And then you have your PMTiles files, and you're not running a process or anything, you're just putting your files on a static file host. [00:06:50] Brandon: Right. So I think if you're a developer, you can also argue like a static file server is a server. It's you know, it's the cloud, it's just someone else's computer. It's really just nginx under the hood. But I think static storage is sort of special. If you look at things like static site generators, like Jekyll or Hugo, they're really popular because they're a commodity or like the storage is a commodity. And you can take your blog, make it a Jekyll blog, hosted on S3. One day, Amazon's like, we're charging three times as much so you can move it to a different cloud provider. And that's all vendor neutral. So I think that's really the special thing about static storage as a primitive on the web. Why running servers is a problem for resilience [00:07:36] Jeremy: Was there a prior experience you had? Like you've worked with maps for a very long time. Were there particular difficulties you had where you said I just gotta have something that can be statically hosted? [00:07:50] Brandon: That's sort of exactly why I got into this. I've been working sort of in and around the map space for over a decade, and Protomaps is really like me trying to solve the same problem I've had over and over again in the past, just like once and forever right? Because like once this problem is solved, like I don't need to deal with it again in the future. So I've worked at a couple of different companies before, mostly as a contractor, for like a humanitarian nonprofit for a design company doing things like, web applications to visualize climate change. Or for even like museums, like digital signage for museums. And oftentimes they had some sort of data visualization component, but always sort of the challenge of how to like, store and also distribute like that data was something that there wasn't really great open source solutions. So just for map data, that's really what motivated that design for Protomaps. [00:08:55] Jeremy: And in those, those projects in the past, were those things where you had to run your own server, run your own database, things like that? [00:09:04] Brandon: Yeah. And oftentimes we did, we would spin up an EC2 instance, for maybe one client and then we would have to host this server serving map data forever. Maybe the client goes away, or I guess it's good for business if you can sign some sort of like long-term support for that client saying, Hey, you know, like we're done with a project, but you can pay us to maintain the EC2 server for the next 10 years. And that's attractive. but it's also sort of a pain, because usually what happens is if people are given the choice, like a developer between like either I can manage the server on EC2 or on Rackspace or Hetzner or whatever, or I can go pay a SaaS to do it. In most cases, businesses will choose to pay the SaaS. So that's really like what creates a sort of lock-in is this preference for like, so I have this choice between like running the server or paying the SaaS. Like businesses will almost always go and pay the SaaS. [00:10:05] Jeremy: Yeah. And in this case, you either find some kind of free hosting or low-cost hosting just to host your files and you upload the files and then you're good from there. You don't need to maintain anything. [00:10:18] Brandon: Exactly, and that's really the ideal use case. so I have some users these, climate science consulting agencies, and then they might have like a one-off project where they have to generate the data once, but instead of having to maintain this server for the lifetime of that project, they just have a file on S3 and like, who cares? If that costs a couple dollars a month to run, that's fine, but it's not like S3 is gonna be deprecated, like it's gonna be on an insecure version of Ubuntu or something. So that's really the ideal, set of constraints for using Protomaps. [00:10:58] Jeremy: Yeah. Something this also makes me think about is, is like the resilience of sites like remaining online, because I, interviewed, Kyle Drake, he runs Neocities, which is like a modern version of GeoCities. And if I remember correctly, he was mentioning how a lot of old websites from that time, if they were running a server backend, like they were running PHP or something like that, if you were to try to go to those sites, now they're like pretty much all dead because there needed to be someone dedicated to running a Linux server, making sure things were patched and so on and so forth. But for static sites, like the ones that used to be hosted on GeoCities, you can go to the internet archive or other websites and they were just files, right? You can bring 'em right back up, and if anybody just puts 'em on a web server, then you're good. They're still alive. Case study of news room preferring static hosting [00:11:53] Brandon: Yeah, exactly. One place that's kind of surprising but makes sense where this comes up, is for newspapers actually. Some of the users using Protomaps are the Washington Post. And the reason they use it, is not necessarily because they don't want to pay for a SaaS like Google, but because if they make an interactive story, they have to guarantee that it still works in a couple of years. And that's like a policy decision from like the editorial board, which is like, so you can't write an article if people can't view it in five years. But if your like interactive data story is reliant on a third party, API and that third party API becomes deprecated, or it changes the pricing or it, you know, it gets acquired, then your journalism story is not gonna work anymore. So I have seen really good uptake among local news rooms and even big ones to use things like Protomaps just because it makes sense for the requirements. Working on Protomaps as an open source project for five years [00:12:49] Jeremy: How long have you been working on Protomaps and the parts that it's made up of such as PMTiles? [00:12:58] Brandon: I've been working on it for about five years, maybe a little more than that. It's sort of my pandemic era project. But the PMTiles part, which is really the heart of it only came in about halfway. Why not make a SaaS? [00:13:13] Brandon: So honestly, like when I first started it, I thought it was gonna be another SaaS and then I looked at it and looked at what the environment was around it. And I'm like, uh, so I don't really think I wanna do that. [00:13:24] Jeremy: When, when you say you looked at the environment around it what do you mean? Why did you decide not to make it a SaaS? [00:13:31] Brandon: Because there already is a lot of SaaS out there. And I think the opportunity of making something that is unique in terms of those use cases, like I mentioned like newsrooms, was clear. Like it was clear that there was some other solution, that could be built that would fit these needs better while if it was a SaaS, there are plenty of those out there. And I don't necessarily think that they're well differentiated. A lot of them all use OpenStreetMap data. And it seems like they mainly compete on price. It's like who can build the best three column pricing model. And then once you do that, you need to build like billing and metrics and authentication and like those problems don't really interest me. So I think, although I acknowledge sort of the indie hacker ethos now is to build a SaaS product with a monthly subscription, that's something I very much chose not to do, even though it is for sure like the best way to build a business. [00:14:29] Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people can appreciate that perspective because it's, it's almost like we have SaaS overload, right? Where you have so many little bills for your project where you're like, another $5 a month, another $10 a month, or if you're a business, right? Those, you add a bunch of zeros and at some point it's just how many of these are we gonna stack on here? [00:14:53] Brandon: Yeah. And honestly. So I really think like as programmers, we're not really like great at choosing how to spend money like a $10 SaaS. That's like nothing. You know? So I can go to Starbucks and I can buy a pumpkin spice latte, and that's like $10 basically now, right? And it's like I'm able to make that consumer choice in like an instant just to spend money on that. But then if you're like, oh, like spend $10 on a SaaS that somebody put a lot of work into, then you're like, oh, that's too expensive. I could just do it myself. So I'm someone that also subscribes to a lot of SaaS products. and I think for a lot of things it's a great fit. Many open source SaaS projects are not easy to self host [00:15:37] Brandon: But there's always this tension between an open source project that you might be able to run yourself and a SaaS. And I think a lot of projects are at different parts of the spectrum. But for Protomaps, it's very much like I'm trying to move maps to being it is something that is so easy to run yourself that anyone can do it. [00:16:00] Jeremy: Yeah, and I think you can really see it with, there's a few SaaS projects that are successful and they're open source, but then you go to look at the self-hosting instructions and it's either really difficult to find and you find it, and then the instructions maybe don't work, or it's really complicated. So I think doing the opposite with Protomaps. As a user, I'm sure we're all appreciative, but I wonder in terms of trying to make money, if that's difficult. [00:16:30] Brandon: No, for sure. It is not like a good way to make money because I think like the ideal situation for an open source project that is open that wants to make money is the product itself is fundamentally complicated to where people are scared to run it themselves. Like a good example I can think of is like Supabase. Supabase is sort of like a platform as a service based on Postgres. And if you wanted to run it yourself, well you need to run Postgres and you need to handle backups and authentication and logging, and that stuff all needs to work and be production ready. So I think a lot of people, like they don't trust themselves to run database backups correctly. 'cause if you get it wrong once, then you're kind of screwed. So I think that fundamental aspect of the product, like a database is something that is very, very ripe for being a SaaS while still being open source because it's fundamentally hard to run. Another one I can think of is like tailscale, which is, like a VPN that works end to end. That's something where, you know, it has this networking complexity where a lot of developers don't wanna deal with that. So they'd happily pay, for tailscale as a service. There is a lot of products or open source projects that eventually end up just changing to becoming like a hosted service. Businesses going from open source to closed or restricted licenses [00:17:58] Brandon: But then in that situation why would they keep it open source, right? Like, if it's easy to run yourself well, doesn't that sort of cannibalize their business model? And I think that's really the tension overall in these open source companies. So you saw it happen to things like Elasticsearch to things like Terraform where they eventually change the license to one that makes it difficult for other companies to compete with them. [00:18:23] Jeremy: Yeah, I mean there's been a number of cases like that. I mean, specifically within the mapping community, one I can think of was Mapbox's. They have Mapbox gl. Which was a JavaScript client to visualize maps and they moved from, I forget which license they picked, but they moved to a much more restrictive license. I wonder what your thoughts are on something that releases as open source, but then becomes something maybe a little more muddy. [00:18:55] Brandon: Yeah, I think it totally makes sense because if you look at their business and their funding, it seems like for Mapbox, I haven't used it in a while, but my understanding is like a lot of their business now is car companies and doing in dash navigation. And that is probably way better of a business than trying to serve like people making maps of toilets. And I think sort of the beauty of it is that, so Mapbox, the story is they had a JavaScript renderer called Mapbox GL JS. And they changed that to a source available license a couple years ago. And there's a fork of it that I'm sort of involved in called MapLibre GL. But I think the cool part is Mapbox paid employees for years, probably millions of dollars in total to work on this thing and just gave it away for free. Right? So everyone can benefit from that work they did. It's not like that code went away, like once they changed the license. Well, the old version has been forked. It's going its own way now. It's quite different than the new version of Mapbox, but I think it's extremely generous that they're able to pay people for years, you know, like a competitive salary and just give that away. [00:20:10] Jeremy: Yeah, so we should maybe look at it as, it was a gift while it was open source, and they've given it to the community and they're on continuing on their own path, but at least the community running Map Libre, they can run with it, right? It's not like it just disappeared. [00:20:29] Brandon: Yeah, exactly. And that is something that I use for Protomaps quite extensively. Like it's the primary way of showing maps on the web and I've been trying to like work on some enhancements to it to have like better internationalization for if you are in like South Asia like not show languages correctly. So I think it is being taken in a new direction. And I think like sort of the combination of Protomaps and MapLibre, it addresses a lot of use cases, like I mentioned earlier with like these like hobby projects, indie projects that are almost certainly not interesting to someone like Mapbox or Google as a business. But I'm happy to support as a small business myself. Financially supporting open source work (GitHub sponsors, closed source, contracts) [00:21:12] Jeremy: In my previous interview with Tom, one of the main things he mentioned was that creating a mapping business is incredibly difficult, and he said he probably wouldn't do it again. So in your case, you're building Protomaps, which you've admitted is easy to self-host. So there's not a whole lot of incentive for people to pay you. How is that working out for you? How are you supporting yourself? [00:21:40] Brandon: There's a couple of strategies that I've tried and oftentimes failed at. Just to go down the list, so I do have GitHub sponsors so I do have a hosted version of Protomaps you can use if you don't want to bother copying a big file around. But the way I do the billing for that is through GitHub sponsors. If you wanted to use this thing I provide, then just be a sponsor. And that definitely pays for itself, like the cost of running it. And that's great. GitHub sponsors is so easy to set up. It just removes you having to deal with Stripe or something. 'cause a lot of people, their credit card information is already in GitHub. GitHub sponsors I think is awesome if you want to like cover costs for a project. But I think very few people are able to make that work. A thing that's like a salary job level. It's sort of like Twitch streaming, you know, there's a handful of people that are full-time streamers and then you look down the list on Twitch and it's like a lot of people that have like 10 viewers. But some of the other things I've tried, I actually started out, publishing the base map as a closed source thing, where I would sell sort of like a data package instead of being a SaaS, I'd be like, here's a one-time download, of the premium data and you can buy it. And quite a few people bought it I just priced it at like $500 for this thing. And I thought that was an interesting experiment. The main reason it's interesting is because the people that it attracts to you in terms of like, they're curious about your products, are all people willing to pay money. While if you start out everything being open source, then the people that are gonna be try to do it are only the people that want to get something for free. So what I discovered is actually like once you transition that thing from closed source to open source, a lot of the people that used to pay you money will still keep paying you money because like, it wasn't necessarily that that closed source thing was why they wanted to pay. They just valued that thought you've put into it your expertise, for example. So I think that is one thing, that I tried at the beginning was just start out, closed source proprietary, then make it open source. That's interesting to people. Like if you release something as open source, if you go the other way, like people are really mad if you start out with something open source and then later on you're like, oh, it's some other license. Then people are like that's so rotten. But I think doing it the other way, I think is quite valuable in terms of being able to find an audience. [00:24:29] Jeremy: And when you said it was closed source and paid to open source, do you still sell those map exports? [00:24:39] Brandon: I don't right now. It's something that I might do in the future, you know, like have small customizations of the data that are available, uh, for a fee. still like the core OpenStreetMap based map that's like a hundred gigs you can just download. And that'll always just be like a free download just because that's already out there. All the source code to build it is open source. So even if I said, oh, you have to pay for it, then someone else can just do it right? So there's no real reason like to make that like some sort of like paywall thing. But I think like overall if the project is gonna survive in the long term it's important that I'd ideally like to be able to like grow like a team like have a small group of people that can dedicate the time to growing the project in the long term. But I'm still like trying to figure that out right now. [00:25:34] Jeremy: And when you mentioned that when you went from closed to open and people were still paying you, you don't sell a product anymore. What were they paying for? [00:25:45] Brandon: So I have some contracts with companies basically, like if they need a feature or they need a customization in this way then I am very open to those. And I sort of set it up to make it clear from the beginning that this is not just a free thing on GitHub, this is something that you could pay for if you need help with it, if you need support, if you wanted it. I'm also a little cagey about the word support because I think like it sounds a little bit too wishy-washy. Pretty much like if you need access to the developers of an open source project, I think that's something that businesses are willing to pay for. And I think like making that clear to potential users is a challenge. But I think that is one way that you might be able to make like a living out of open source. [00:26:35] Jeremy: And I think you said you'd been working on it for about five years. Has that mostly been full time? [00:26:42] Brandon: It's been on and off. it's sort of my pandemic era project. But I've spent a lot of time, most of my time working on the open source project at this point. So I have done some things that were more just like I'm doing a customization or like a private deployment for some client. But that's been a minority of the time. Yeah. [00:27:03] Jeremy: It's still impressive to have an open source project that is easy to self-host and yet is still able to support you working on it full time. I think a lot of people might make the assumption that there's nothing to sell if something is, is easy to use. But this sort of sounds like a counterpoint to that. [00:27:25] Brandon: I think I'd like it to be. So when you come back to the point of like, it being easy to self-host. Well, so again, like I think about it as like a primitive of the web. Like for example, if you wanted to start a business today as like hosted CSS files, you know, like where you upload your CSS and then you get developers to pay you a monthly subscription for how many times they fetched a CSS file. Well, I think most developers would be like, that's stupid because it's just an open specification, you just upload a static file. And really my goal is to make Protomaps the same way where it's obvious that there's not really some sort of lock-in or some sort of secret sauce in the server that does this thing. How PMTiles works and building a primitive of the web [00:28:16] Brandon: If you look at video for example, like a lot of the tech for how Protomaps and PMTiles works is based on parts of the HTTP spec that were made for video. And 20 years ago, if you wanted to host a video on the web, you had to have like a real player license or flash. So you had to go license some server software from real media or from macromedia so you could stream video to a browser plugin. But now in HTML you can just embed a video file. And no one's like, oh well I need to go pay for my video serving license. I mean, there is such a thing, like YouTube doesn't really use that for DRM reasons, but people just have the assumption that video is like a primitive on the web. So if we're able to make maps sort of that same way like a primitive on the web then there isn't really some obvious business or licensing model behind how that works. Just because it's a thing and it helps a lot of people do their jobs and people are happy using it. So why bother? [00:29:26] Jeremy: You mentioned that it a tech that was used for streaming video. What tech specifically is it? [00:29:34] Brandon: So it is byte range serving. So when you open a video file on the web, So let's say it's like a 100 megabyte video. You don't have to download the entire video before it starts playing. It streams parts out of the file based on like what frames... I mean, it's based on the frames in the video. So it can start streaming immediately because it's organized in a way to where the first few frames are at the beginning. And what PMTiles really is, is it's just like a video but in space instead of time. So it's organized in a way where these zoomed out views are at the beginning and the most zoomed in views are at the end. So when you're like panning or zooming in the map all you're really doing is fetching byte ranges out of that file the same way as a video. But it's organized in, this tiled way on a space filling curve. IIt's a little bit complicated how it works internally and I think it's kind of cool but that's sort of an like an implementation detail. [00:30:35] Jeremy: And to the person deploying it, it just looks like a single file. [00:30:40] Brandon: Exactly in the same way like an mp3 audio file is or like a JSON file is. [00:30:47] Jeremy: So with a video, I can sort of see how as someone seeks through the video, they start at the beginning and then they go to the middle if they wanna see the middle. For a map, as somebody scrolls around the map, are you seeking all over the file or is the way it's structured have a little less chaos? [00:31:09] Brandon: It's structured. And that's kind of the main technical challenge behind building PMTiles is you have to be sort of clever so you're not spraying the reads everywhere. So it uses something called a hilbert curve, which is a mathematical concept of a space filling curve. Where it's one continuous curve that essentially lets you break 2D space into 1D space. So if you've seen some maps of IP space, it uses this crazy looking curve that hits all the points in one continuous line. And that's the same concept behind PMTiles is if you're looking at one part of the world, you're sort of guaranteed that all of those parts you're looking at are quite close to each other and the data you have to transfer is quite minimal, compared to if you just had it at random. [00:32:02] Jeremy: How big do the files get? If I have a PMTiles of the entire world, what kind of size am I looking at? [00:32:10] Brandon: Right now, the default one I distribute is 128 gigabytes, so it's quite sizable, although you can slice parts out of it remotely. So if you just wanted. if you just wanted California or just wanted LA or just wanted only a couple of zoom levels, like from zero to 10 instead of zero to 15, there is a command line tool that's also called PMTiles that lets you do that. Issues with CDNs and range queries [00:32:35] Jeremy: And when you're working with files of this size, I mean, let's say I am working with a CDN in front of my application. I'm not typically accustomed to hosting something that's that large and something that's where you're seeking all over the file. is that, ever an issue or is that something that's just taken care of by the browser and, and taken care of by, by the hosts? [00:32:58] Brandon: That is an issue actually, so a lot of CDNs don't deal with it correctly. And my recommendation is there is a kind of proxy server or like a serverless proxy thing that I wrote. That runs on like cloudflare workers or on Docker that lets you proxy those range requests into a normal URL and then that is like a hundred percent CDN compatible. So I would say like a lot of the big commercial installations of this thing, they use that because it makes more practical sense. It's also faster. But the idea is that this solution sort of scales up and scales down. If you wanted to host just your city in like a 10 megabyte file, well you can just put that into GitHub pages and you don't have to worry about it. If you want to have a global map for your website that serves a ton of traffic then you probably want a little bit more sophisticated of a solution. It still does not require you to run a Linux server, but it might require (you) to use like Lambda or Lambda in conjunction with like a CDN. [00:34:09] Jeremy: Yeah. And that sort of ties into what you were saying at the beginning where if you can host on something like CloudFlare Workers or Lambda, there's less time you have to spend keeping these things running. [00:34:26] Brandon: Yeah, exactly. and I think also the Lambda or CloudFlare workers solution is not perfect. It's not as perfect as S3 or as just static files, but in my experience, it still is better at building something that lasts on the time span of years than being like I have a server that is on this Ubuntu version and in four years there's all these like security patches that are not being applied. So it's still sort of serverless, although not totally vendor neutral like S3. Customizing the map [00:35:03] Jeremy: We've mostly been talking about how you host the map itself, but for someone who's not familiar with these kind of tools, how would they be customizing the map? [00:35:15] Brandon: For customizing the map there is front end style customization and there's also data customization. So for the front end if you wanted to change the water from the shade of blue to another shade of blue there is a TypeScript API where you can customize it almost like a text editor color scheme. So if you're able to name a bunch of colors, well you can customize the map in that way you can change the fonts. And that's all done using MapLibre GL using a TypeScript API on top of that for customizing the data. So all the pipeline to generate this data from OpenStreetMap is open source. There is a Java program using a library called PlanetTiler which is awesome, which is this super fast multi-core way of building map tiles. And right now there isn't really great hooks to customize what data goes into that. But that's something that I do wanna work on. And finally, because the data comes from OpenStreetMap if you notice data that's missing or you wanted to correct data in OSM then you can go into osm.org. You can get involved in contributing the data to OSM and the Protomaps build is daily. So if you make a change, then within 24 hours you should see the new base map. Have that change. And of course for OSM your improvements would go into every OSM based project that is ingesting that data. So it's not a protomap specific thing. It's like this big shared data source, almost like Wikipedia. OpenStreetMap is a dataset and not a map [00:37:01] Jeremy: I think you were involved with OpenStreetMap to some extent. Can you speak a little bit to that for people who aren't familiar, what OpenStreetMap is? [00:37:11] Brandon: Right. So I've been using OSM as sort of like a tools developer for over a decade now. And one of the number one questions I get from developers about what is Protomaps is why wouldn't I just use OpenStreetMap? What's the distinction between Protomaps and OpenStreetMap? And it's sort of like this funny thing because even though OSM has map in the name it's not really a map in that you can't... In that it's mostly a data set and not a map. It does have a map that you can see that you can pan around to when you go to the website but the way that thing they show you on the website is built is not really that easily reproducible. It involves a lot of c++ software you have to run. But OpenStreetMap itself, the heart of it is almost like a big XML file that has all the data in the map and global. And it has tagged features for example. So you can go in and edit that. It has a web front end to change the data. It does not directly translate into making a map actually. Protomaps decides what shows at each zoom level [00:38:24] Brandon: So a lot of the pipeline, that Java program I mentioned for building this basemap for protomaps is doing things like you have to choose what data you show when you zoom out. You can't show all the data. For example when you're zoomed out and you're looking at all of a state like Colorado you don't see all the Chipotle when you're zoomed all the way out. That'd be weird, right? So you have to make some sort of decision in logic that says this data only shows up at this zoom level. And that's really what is the challenge in optimizing the size of that for the Protomaps map project. [00:39:03] Jeremy: Oh, so those decisions of what to show at different Zoom levels those are decisions made by you when you're creating the PMTiles file with Protomaps. [00:39:14] Brandon: Exactly. It's part of the base maps build pipeline. and those are honestly very subjective decisions. Who really decides when you're zoomed out should this hospital show up or should this museum show up nowadays in Google, I think it shows you ads. Like if someone pays for their car repair shop to show up when you're zoomed out like that that gets surfaced. But because there is no advertising auction in Protomaps that doesn't happen obviously. So we have to sort of make some reasonable choice. A lot of that right now in Protomaps actually comes from another open source project called Mapzen. So Mapzen was a company that went outta business a couple years ago. They did a lot of this work in designing which data shows up at which Zoom level and open sourced it. And then when they shut down, they transferred that code into the Linux Foundation. So it's this totally open source project, that like, again, sort of like Mapbox gl has this awesome legacy in that this company funded it for years for smart people to work on it and now it's just like a free thing you can use. So the logic in Protomaps is really based on mapzen. [00:40:33] Jeremy: And so the visualization of all this... I think I understand what you mean when people say oh, why not use OpenStreetMaps because it's not really clear it's hard to tell is this the tool that's visualizing the data? Is it the data itself? So in the case of using Protomaps, it sounds like Protomaps itself has all of the data from OpenStreetMap and then it has made all the decisions for you in terms of what to show at different Zoom levels and what things to have on the map at all. And then finally, you have to have a separate, UI layer and in this case, it sounds like the one that you recommend is the Map Libre library. [00:41:18] Brandon: Yeah, that's exactly right. For Protomaps, it has a portion or a subset of OSM data. It doesn't have all of it just because there's too much, like there's data in there. people have mapped out different bushes and I don't include that in Protomaps if you wanted to go in and edit like the Java code to add that you can. But really what Protomaps is positioned at is sort of a solution for developers that want to use OSM data to make a map on their app or their website. because OpenStreetMap itself is mostly a data set, it does not really go all the way to having an end-to-end solution. Financials and the idea of a project being complete [00:41:59] Jeremy: So I think it's great that somebody who wants to make a map, they have these tools available, whether it's from what was originally built by Mapbox, what's built by Open StreetMap now, the work you're doing with Protomaps. But I wonder one of the things that I talked about with Tom was he was saying he was trying to build this mapping business and based on the financials of what was coming in he was stressed, right? He was struggling a bit. And I wonder for you, you've been working on this open source project for five years. Do you have similar stressors or do you feel like I could keep going how things are now and I feel comfortable? [00:42:46] Brandon: So I wouldn't say I'm a hundred percent in one bucket or the other. I'm still seeing it play out. One thing, that I really respect in a lot of open source projects, which I'm not saying I'm gonna do for Protomaps is the idea that a project is like finished. I think that is amazing. If a software project can just be done it's sort of like a painting or a novel once you write, finish the last page, have it seen by the editor. I send it off to the press is you're done with a book. And I think one of the pains of software is so few of us can actually do that. And I don't know obviously people will say oh the map is never finished. That's more true of OSM, but I think like for Protomaps. One thing I'm thinking about is how to limit the scope to something that's quite narrow to where we could be feature complete on the core things in the near term timeframe. That means that it does not address a lot of things that people want. Like search, like if you go to Google Maps and you search for a restaurant, you will get some hits. that's like a geocoding issue. And I've already decided that's totally outta scope for Protomaps. So, in terms of trying to think about the future of this, I'm mostly looking for ways to cut scope if possible. There are some things like better tooling around being able to work with PMTiles that are on the roadmap. but for me, I am still enjoying working on the project. It's definitely growing. So I can see on NPM downloads I can see the growth curve of people using it and that's really cool. So I like hearing about when people are using it for cool projects. So it seems to still be going okay for now. [00:44:44] Jeremy: Yeah, that's an interesting perspective about how you were talking about projects being done. Because I think when people look at GitHub projects and they go like, oh, the last commit was X months ago. They go oh well this is dead right? But maybe that's the wrong framing. Maybe you can get a project to a point where it's like, oh, it's because it doesn't need to be updated. [00:45:07] Brandon: Exactly, yeah. Like I used to do a lot of c++ programming and the best part is when you see some LAPACK matrix math library from like 1995 that still works perfectly in c++ and you're like, this is awesome. This is the one I have to use. But if you're like trying to use some like React component library and it hasn't been updated in like a year, you're like, oh, that's a problem. So again, I think there's some middle ground between those that I'm trying to find. I do like for Protomaps, it's quite dependency light in terms of the number of hard dependencies I have in software. but I do still feel like there is a lot of work to be done in terms of project scope that needs to have stuff added. You mostly only hear about problems instead of people's wins [00:45:54] Jeremy: Having run it for this long. Do you have any thoughts on running an open source project in general? On dealing with issues or managing what to work on things like that? [00:46:07] Brandon: Yeah. So I have a lot. I think one thing people point out a lot is that especially because I don't have a direct relationship with a lot of the people using it a lot of times I don't even know that they're using it. Someone sent me a message saying hey, have you seen flickr.com, like the photo site? And I'm like, no. And I went to flickr.com/map and it has Protomaps for it. And I'm like, I had no idea. But that's cool, if they're able to use Protomaps for this giant photo sharing site that's awesome. But that also means I don't really hear about when people use it successfully because you just don't know, I guess they, NPM installed it and it works perfectly and you never hear about it. You only hear about people's negative experiences. You only hear about people that come and open GitHub issues saying this is totally broken, and why doesn't this thing exist? And I'm like, well, it's because there's an infinite amount of things that I want to do, but I have a finite amount of time and I just haven't gone into that yet. And that's honestly a lot of the things and people are like when is this thing gonna be done? So that's, that's honestly part of why I don't have a public roadmap because I want to avoid that sort of bickering about it. I would say that's one of my biggest frustrations with running an open source project is how it's self-selected to only hear the negative experiences with it. Be careful what PRs you accept [00:47:32] Brandon: 'cause you don't hear about those times where it works. I'd say another thing is it's changed my perspective on contributing to open source because I think when I was younger or before I had become a maintainer I would open a pull request on a project unprompted that has a hundred lines and I'd be like, Hey, just merge this thing. But I didn't realize when I was younger well if I just merge it and I disappear, then the maintainer is stuck with what I did forever. You know if I add some feature then that person that maintains the project has to do that indefinitely. And I think that's very asymmetrical and it's changed my perspective a lot on accepting open source contributions. I wanna have it be open to anyone to contribute. But there is some amount of back and forth where it's almost like the default answer for should I accept a PR is no by default because you're the one maintaining it. And do you understand the shape of that solution completely to where you're going to support it for years because the person that's contributing it is not bound to those same obligations that you are. And I think that's also one of the things where I have a lot of trepidation around open source is I used to think of it as a lot more bazaar-like in terms of anyone can just throw their thing in. But then that creates a lot of problems for the people who are expected out of social obligation to continue this thing indefinitely. [00:49:23] Jeremy: Yeah, I can totally see why that causes burnout with a lot of open source maintainers, because you probably to some extent maybe even feel some guilt right? You're like, well, somebody took the time to make this. But then like you said you have to spend a lot of time trying to figure out is this something I wanna maintain long term? And one wrong move and it's like, well, it's in here now. [00:49:53] Brandon: Exactly. To me, I think that is a very common failure mode for open source projects is they're too liberal in the things they accept. And that's a lot of why I was talking about how that choice of what features show up on the map was inherited from the MapZen projects. If I didn't have that then somebody could come in and say hey, you know, I want to show power lines on the map. And they open a PR for power lines and now everybody who's using Protomaps when they're like zoomed out they see power lines are like I didn't want that. So I think that's part of why a lot of open source projects eventually evolve into a plugin system is because there is this demand as the project grows for more and more features. But there is a limit in the maintainers. It's like the demand for features is exponential while the maintainer amount of time and effort is linear. Plugin systems might reduce need for PRs [00:50:56] Brandon: So maybe the solution to smash that exponential down to quadratic maybe is to add a plugin system. But I think that is one of the biggest tensions that only became obvious to me after working on this for a couple of years. [00:51:14] Jeremy: Is that something you're considering doing now? [00:51:18] Brandon: Is the plugin system? Yeah. I think for the data customization, I eventually wanted to have some sort of programmatic API to where you could declare a config file that says I want ski routes. It totally makes sense. The power lines example is maybe a little bit obscure but for example like a skiing app and you want to be able to show ski slopes when you're zoomed out well you're not gonna be able to get that from Mapbox or from Google because they have a one size fits all map that's not specialized to skiing or to golfing or to outdoors. But if you like, in theory, you could do this with Protomaps if you changed the Java code to show data at different zoom levels. And that is to me what makes the most sense for a plugin system and also makes the most product sense because it enables a lot of things you cannot do with the one size fits all map. [00:52:20] Jeremy: It might also increase the complexity of the implementation though, right? [00:52:25] Brandon: Yeah, exactly. So that's like. That's really where a lot of the terrifying thoughts come in, which is like once you create this like config file surface area, well what does that look like? Is that JSON? Is that TOML, is that some weird like everything eventually evolves into some scripting language right? Where you have logic inside of your templates and I honestly do not really know what that looks like right now. That feels like something in the medium term roadmap. [00:52:58] Jeremy: Yeah and then in terms of bug reports or issues, now it's not just your code it's this exponential combination of whatever people put into these config files. [00:53:09] Brandon: Exactly. Yeah. so again, like I really respect the projects that have done this well or that have done plugins well. I'm trying to think of some, I think obsidian has plugins, for example. And that seems to be one of the few solutions to try and satisfy the infinite desire for features with the limited amount of maintainer time. Time split between code vs triage vs talking to users [00:53:36] Jeremy: How would you say your time is split between working on the code versus issue and PR triage? [00:53:43] Brandon: Oh, it varies really. I think working on the code is like a minority of it. I think something that I actually enjoy is talking to people, talking to users, getting feedback on it. I go to quite a few conferences to talk to developers or people that are interested and figure out how to refine the message, how to make it clearer to people, like what this is for. And I would say maybe a plurality of my time is spent dealing with non-technical things that are neither code or GitHub issues. One thing I've been trying to do recently is talk to people that are not really in the mapping space. For example, people that work for newspapers like a lot of them are front end developers and if you ask them to run a Linux server they're like I have no idea. But that really is like one of the best target audiences for Protomaps. So I'd say a lot of the reality of running an open source project is a lot like a business is it has all the same challenges as a business in terms of you have to figure out what is the thing you're offering. You have to deal with people using it. You have to deal with feedback, you have to deal with managing emails and stuff. I don't think the payoff is anywhere near running a business or a startup that's backed by VC money is but it's definitely not the case that if you just want to code, you should start an open source project because I think a lot of the work for an opensource project has nothing to do with just writing the code. It is in my opinion as someone having done a VC backed business before, it is a lot more similar to running, a tech company than just putting some code on GitHub. Running a startup vs open source project [00:55:43] Jeremy: Well, since you've done both at a high level what did you like about running the company versus maintaining the open source project? [00:55:52] Brandon: So I have done some venture capital accelerator programs before and I think there is an element of hype and energy that you get from that that is self perpetuating. Your co-founder is gungho on like, yeah, we're gonna do this thing. And your investors are like, you guys are geniuses. You guys are gonna make a killing doing this thing. And the way it's framed is sort of obvious to everyone that it's like there's a much more traditional set of motivations behind that, that people understand while it's definitely not the case for running an open source project. Sometimes you just wake up and you're like what the hell is this thing for, it is this thing you spend a lot of time on. You don't even know who's using it. The people that use it and make a bunch of money off of it they know nothing about it. And you know, it's just like cool. And then you only hear from people that are complaining about it. And I think like that's honestly discouraging compared to the more clear energy and clearer motivation and vision behind how most people think about a company. But what I like about the open source project is just the lack of those constraints you know? Where you have a mandate that you need to have this many customers that are paying by this amount of time. There's that sort of pressure on delivering a business result instead of just making something that you're proud of that's simple to use and has like an elegant design. I think that's really a difference in motivation as well. Having control [00:57:50] Jeremy: Do you feel like you have more control? Like you mentioned how you've decided I'm not gonna make a public roadmap. I'm the sole developer. I get to decide what goes in. What doesn't. Do you feel like you have more control in your current position than you did running the startup? [00:58:10] Brandon: Definitely for sure. Like that agency is what I value the most. It is possible to go too far. Like, so I'm very wary of the BDFL title, which I think is how a lot of open source projects succeed. But I think there is some element of for a project to succeed there has to be somebody that makes those decisions. Sometimes those decisions will be wrong and then hopefully they can be rectified. But I think going back to what I was talking about with scope, I think the overall vision and the scope of the project is something that I am very opinionated about in that it should do these things. It shouldn't do these things. It should be easy to use for this audience. Is it gonna be appealing to this other audience? I don't know. And I think that is really one of the most important parts of that leadership role, is having the power to decide we're doing this, we're not doing this. I would hope other developers would be able to get on board if they're able to make good use of the project, if they use it for their company, if they use it for their business, if they just think the project is cool. So there are other contributors at this point and I want to get more involved. But I think being able to make those decisions to what I believe is going to be the best project is something that is very special about open source, that isn't necessarily true about running like a SaaS business. [00:59:50] Jeremy: I think that's a good spot to end it on, so if people want to learn more about Protomaps or they wanna see what you're up to, where should they head? [01:00:00] Brandon: So you can go to Protomaps.com, GitHub, or you can find me or Protomaps on bluesky or Mastodon. [01:00:09] Jeremy: All right, Brandon, thank you so much for chatting today. [01:00:12] Brandon: Great. Thank you very much.

In this episode, Amy and Brad dive into the ongoing debate between Laravel and full stack JavaScript frameworks. They explore both ecosystems from their unique perspectives. Amy shares her real-world experience building a project in Laravel after working extensively with JavaScript frameworks, highlighting where each approach shines and struggles. From Laravel's backend prowess to the cognitive load of context switching between languages, this episode offers practical insights for developers weighing these technology choices.Show Notes00:00 - Intro01:00 - Sponsorship: Sanity01:59 - Origins of the Laravel vs JavaScript Discussion03:59 - Amy's Experience Building a Project in Laravel06:59 - PHP Development and Linting Experience11:59 - Understanding MVC Architecture15:00 - Challenges with JavaScript Backend Services18:00 - Backend Strengths of Laravel20:00 - Frontend Challenges in Laravel23:00 - Comparing Laravel and JavaScript Ecosystem Solutions26:59 - JavaScript Full Stack Frameworks Discussion30:00 - Architectural Differences Between Frameworks33:00 - Framework Choice Considerations38:59 - Picks and Plugs: Newsletter and Cameras42:00 - Picks and Plugs: Games and YouTube Links and ResourcesSanity.io (sponsor)LaravelSam's podcast: Frontend FirstRedwoodJSRemixNext.jsAstroSupabaseInngestResend (email service)Postmark (email service)OpenAIPrismaPHP StormLaravel Blade (templating language)Laravel LivewireAlpine.jsLaravel BreezeLaravel Eloquent ORMAdonis/AdonisJSEpisode 54: Why RedwoodJS is the App Framework for Startups, with David PriceViteStorybookAmy's newsletter: Broken CombInsta360 X2 cameraInsta360 Go 3 cameraStardew Valley (game)Brad's YouTube channelCloudinary channel and Dev Hints series

Support Good Morning Gwinnett $5.99 A Month https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/good-morning-gwinnett-podcast--3262933/support_____________________________________________In this episode, we break down the exact steps to launch your own educational mobile app—even if you have zero tech skills and a tight budget.

Rahul Vohra is the founder and CEO of Superhuman. Prior to Superhuman, Rahul founded Rapportive, the first Gmail plug-in to scale to millions of users, which he sold to LinkedIn in 2012. He is also a prominent angel investor, and his fund has invested $50 million in over 120 companies, including Placer, Supabase, Mercury, Zip, ClassDojo, and Writer.What you'll learn:• The unexpected insight about virality Rahul gained from LinkedIn's head of growth.• Why Rahul restructured his entire executive team to spend 60% to 70% of his time on product, design, and marketing instead of the typical CEO responsibilities.• The counterintuitive approach to finding product-market fit using a methodical system inspired by Sean Ellis, and how this algorithmically determines your roadmap.• How manually onboarding every user (Superhuman had 20 full-time people doing this at peak) created superfans and allowed engineers to focus on product rather than onboarding flows.• The “Single Decisive Reason” framework for making better decisions by avoiding collections of weak justifications.• How Superhuman's AI features have evolved to create a truly intelligent email experience that works while you sleep.—Brought to you by:• Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments• Fundrise Flagship Fund—Invest in $1.1 billion of real estate• OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/superhumans-secret-to-success-rahul-vohra—Where to find Rahul Vohra:• X: https://x.com/rahulvohra• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rahulvohra/• Email: Rahul@superhuman.com—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Rahul and Superhuman(05:00) The most pivotal moment in Rahul's career(07:01) The secret to virality(11:02) Superhuman's product evolution and core values(13:32) Overcoming slowdowns at scale(18:06) Time management and meditation(27:35) The role of a president(30:56) Attention to detail(43:00) Finding your unique position(47:32) The power of manual onboarding(52:37) Mastering product-market fit(59:33) Game design in business software(01:05:35) Contrarian pricing strategies(01:09:29) Leveraging AI(01:15:40) Transitioning to enterprise solutions(01:19:08) The Single Decisive Reason framework(01:22:32) Conclusion and final thoughts—Referenced:• Superhuman: https://superhuman.com/• Rapportive: https://techcrunch.com/2012/02/22/rapportive-linkedin-acquisition/• Elliot Shmukler on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eshmu/• What Are ‘Whales' in Video Games: https://gamerant.com/video-games-whales-concept-term-explained/• Figma: https://www.figma.com/• Notion: https://www.notion.com/• Loom: https://www.loom.com/• How to use Team Comments to reimagine email collaboration: https://blog.superhuman.com/how-to-use-team-comments-to-reimagine-email-collaboration/• Rajiv Ayyangar's post on X about Superhuman: https://x.com/rajivayyangar/status/1816176308130570385• Transcendental Meditation: https://www.tm.org/• Laurent Valosek on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurent-valosek-18708b5a/• Peak Leadership Institute: https://www.peakleadershipinstitute.com/• Ed Sim's website: https://edsim.net/• Adelle Sans: https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/adelle-sans• Comic Sans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic_Sans• Greenfield project: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenfield_project• Why Mailbox died: https://www.theverge.com/2015/12/8/9873268/why-dropbox-mailbox-shutdown• Bill Trenchard on X: https://x.com/btrenchard• How Superhuman Built an Engine to Find Product-Market Fit: https://review.firstround.com/how-superhuman-built-an-engine-to-find-product-market-fit/• Using the Sean Ellis Test for Measuring Your Product-Market Fit: https://medium.productcoalition.com/using-sean-ellis-test-for-measuring-your-product-market-fit-c8ac98053c2c• Sean Ellis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanellis/• The original growth hacker reveals his secrets | Sean Ellis (author of “Hacking Growth”): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-original-growth-hacker-sean-ellis• The Trouble with Rewards: https://www.kornferry.com/insights/briefings-magazine/issue-13/519-the-trouble-with-rewards• The art and science of pricing | Madhavan Ramanujam (Monetizing Innovation, Simon-Kucher): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-art-and-science-of-pricing-madhavan•  Van Westendorp Price Sensitivity Meter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Westendorp%27s_Price_Sensitivity_Meter• AI-powered email for high-performing teams: https://superhuman.com/ai• Linear's secret to building beloved B2B products | Nan Yu (Head of Product): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/linears-secret-to-building-beloved-b2b-products-nan-yu• Single Decisive Reason: decision-making for fast-scaling startups: https://blog.superhuman.com/single-decisive-reason-decision-making-for-fast-scaling-startups/• Reid Hoffman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/reidhoffman/—Recommended books:• Positioning: The Battle for Your Mind: https://www.amazon.com/Positioning-Battle-Your-Al-Ries/dp/0071373586• Monetizing Innovation: How Smart Companies Design the Product Around the Price: https://www.amazon.com/Monetizing-Innovation-Companies-Design-Product/dp/1119240867—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Anton Osika is the co-founder and CEO of Lovable, which is building what they call “the last piece of software”—an AI-powered tool that turns descriptions into working products without requiring any coding knowledge. Since launching three months ago, Lovable hit $4 million ARR in the first four weeks and $10 million ARR in two months with a team of just 15 people, making it Europe's fastest-growing startup ever.—What you'll learn:1. Why you need to be in the top 1% of AI tool users2. Watch Lovable build a functional Airbnb clone in 30 seconds—complete with working features and modern design3. The unconventional hiring approach that helped build a 15-person team capable of extraordinary execution4. How traditional product development will look with AI5. What skills will matter most to product teams going forward6. How Anton's team discovered a breakthrough in AI “unsticking itself”—Brought to you by:• Sinch—Build messaging, email, and calling into your product• Persona—A global leader in digital identity verification• Fundrise Flagship Fund—Invest in $1.1 billion of real estate—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika—Where to find Anton Osika:• X: https://x.com/antonosika• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/antonosika/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Anton and Lovable(05:12) Lovable's rapid growth(09:39) Live demo: Building an Airbnb clone(18:34) Tips for mastering Lovable(21:42) The origin story(26:50) Scaling laws and getting AI unstuck(33:20) Reliability and unique features(36:25) The vision and future of Lovable(38:14) Skills and job market evolution in the age of AI(40:30) Hiring philosophy and team dynamics(46:21) Building in Europe(48:02) Prioritization and product roadmap(51:38) Tools and work environment(53:17) Tactics for moving fast(54:37) Advice for building product teams(57:11) Empowering non-technical founders(58:31) Future developments and user support(01:01:23) Failure corner(01:05:20) Final thoughts and advice—Referenced:• Lovable: https://lovable.dev/• Lovable Launched: https://launched.lovable.app/• Cloudflare: https://www.cloudflare.com/• Supabase: https://supabase.com/• GPT engineer: https://github.com/gpt-engineer-org/gptengineer.app• Microsoft Copilot: https://copilot.microsoft.com/chats/cmFw8dTsGU8D6b9siqQ6U• Fabian Hedin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fabian-hedin-2377b0144/• Behind the product: Replit | Amjad Masad (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-product-replit-amjad-masad• Replit: https://replit.com/• Cursor: https://www.cursor.com• Bolt: https://bolt.new/• GitHub: https://github.com/• Lane Shackleton on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laneshackleton/• FigJam: https://www.figma.com/figjam/• Linear: https://linear.app/• Sana Labs: https://sanalabs.com/• Duolingo: https://www.duolingo.com/• Claude: https://claude.ai/• ChatGPT: https://chatgpt.com/• Lovable on X: https://x.com/Lovable_dev—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Andrew is slowly crawling towards a beta release for MetaMonster, he's almost done with the signup/checkout flow and then has a few more things he wants to check off the list before launch. Sean has been playing with Lovable again, and has built a proof of concept for a Webflow changelog he wants for Miscreants (and is thinking about selling). The guys get a little technical talking through the challenges with Supabase edge functions and building with AI. Links:Andrew's Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Sean's Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/Stacked cookbook: https://www.amazon.com/Stacked-Perfect-Sandwich-Owen-Han/dp/0063330652For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:01.01SeanHow you doing?00:02.26AndrewI'm good, man.00:03.31SeanHow's South Carolina?00:04.58AndrewSouth Carolina was great. Had...00:09.01Andrewbut Sorry.00:10.00Seanwe'll start recording again.00:11.53SeanNo, keep it rolling, keep it rolling, keep going.00:13.18AndrewYou don't want to leave that? You don't want to leave my my hacking?00:15.76SeanHmm.00:18.03AndrewYeah. Yeah, picked up a little bit of, i don't know, crud. not Not even a cold necessarily, just like got super congested for a few days. But had a great time with my family.00:29.79AndrewTook my parents to Korean barbecue for the first time ever. They'd never never tried Korean barbecue and they loved it.00:32.22SeanWhoa.00:36.68AndrewI made some butter chicken for my mom's birthday for her and some of her friends.00:39.84SeanNice. Happy birthday your mom. What is your...00:43.39AndrewMy mom got a new kitten.00:45.25SeanWhoa.00:46.19AndrewSo that was fun.00:46.48SeanBig updates. Uh-huh.00:47.60Andrewher name's Her name's Ruthie.00:49.57SeanNice.00:50.30AndrewFull name RBG.00:51.66Seanare Okay.00:52.46AndrewShe's my mom's resistance kitten.00:54.48SeanVery good. i love it. I love it.00:57.66AndrewYeah. Yeah, things are good. i Cancelled last week's podcast because i was trying to get some work done on client project that we just we just shipped.01:11.63AndrewCongrats to the Dreadnought team. Their website's now live.01:14.42SeanAbsolutely.01:14.58AndrewSuper cool to see. it wasn't It absolutely was not that I was procrastinating on my promise to finish the onboarding flow for Metamonster.01:21.95SeanRight. Right. Right. Convenient story.01:24.77AndrewYeah, that had nothing to do with it.01:26.24SeanYour mom's birthday kitten. i don't believe any of those things. Yeah. Just kidding. Happy birthday to your mom. I don't know her name, but okay.01:37.38AndrewAllison. Allison had a great birthday.01:39.39SeanHappy birthday, Allison. Cool. Or Miss Askins. Miss Askins. Miss Askins.01:45.00AndrewAllison's fine. We are we are adults.01:49.54SeanAnd you might be an adult. You can make butter chicken. I can't. Cool. Cool. But that that was a fun, was that was a fun, hectic launch to get everything live. But02:03.35AndrewIt was. Yarek is a beast, man.02:05.70SeanI know.02:05.75AndrewYarek, like, just...02:06.73SeanYeah.02:08.61AndrewThere were so many things that he just took and ran with. And, like, the, the like, image... generator app that he built to apply like one of the the effects that we created for the website like without anyone asking him to build it was sick the client loves that uh yeah he's he's a beast i i feel i am a little worried that he hates me because i was constantly like hey all right can we change this can we change that like got another request for you but but no he's awesome02:17.91SeanYeah. Yeah.02:26.24Seanyeah02:41.42SeanYeah, he's, yeah. yeah. um do think And the guy's a part-time professor.02:48.22AndrewAnd he's a part-time professor.02:49.76SeanThat's crazy. He's out here teaching kids design things.02:50.68AndrewYeah.02:54.93SeanYeah, yeah, he's pretty good. We're very lucky to have him, so. Cool. health so So, okay. So we skipped. It's just for context.03:03.72SeanFor people that missed the last episode, two weeks ago on our weekly episode podcast, Andrew promised that for the next podcast, he would have his onboarding flow for his SaaS app done.03:16.04SeanIt has been, we missed an episode, so technically this is the new episode. so so is it see it? are like can we see it03:24.48AndrewDefine done.03:28.78Seanyou find time I don't know. I don't know what you had in mind.03:33.06AndrewOkay, so I would say the the we're over 50% of the way there.03:40.07SeanCan I reset my password? Because I forgot it. and he can't like03:42.15AndrewNo, no, that's that's one of the things that I still need to do.03:43.06Seangosh03:46.98AndrewSo you can sign up for an account. As part of the signup flow, you have to pick...

In this conversation, Simon Grimm interviews Dohyun Kim, known as YourAverageTechBro, about his journey as an app developer and content creator. They discuss the challenges and successes in building apps, the importance of marketing, and the technologies used in app development, including React Native, Supabase, and AI tools. Dohyun shares insights on his most successful app, Montee, and the strategies behind its development and marketing, as well as the lessons learned from previous projects. In this conversation, Dohyun discusses the development of his app, Montee, focusing on the use of Next.js and Supabase for differentiation and backend management. He shares insights on API security, handling costs, and user management strategies. The importance of action bias in development is emphasized, along with ideation and keyword research strategies. The discussion also covers social media marketing tactics and preferences between web and mobile app development.Learn React Native - https://galaxies.devDohyun KimYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@YourAverageTechBroTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@youraveragetechbroInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/youraveragetechbroX: https://x.com/youravgtechbroLinksMontee: https://www.montee.aiPerfect Interview: https://www.perfectinterview.aiGemini: https://ai.google.dev/TakeawaysDohyun prefers using technologies that allow for rapid development and shipping.He believes in copying successful ideas rather than focusing on originality.Montee, his AI meeting recorder app, achieved $1,500 in monthly recurring revenue shortly after launch.Dohyun discusses the challenges of app growth and the impact of churn on revenue.He highlights the importance of effective marketing strategies for app success.Dohyun prefers Supabase over Firebase for its relational database capabilities and better documentation.He shares insights on the technology stack used for PerfectInterview.ai, including Next.js and Gemini.Dohyun believes that app growth is often a series of step functions rather than exponential growth. Copy first and differentiate second is a key strategy.API keys should never be exposed in client-side code.User requests should always be traceable to prevent abuse.Action bias is crucial for shipping apps.Keyword research is not the only way to ideate apps.Social media marketing can drive app visibility.Instagram is currently more explosive for growth than TikTok.Web apps allow for faster updates and cash flow management.Developers should focus on building value-adding features.It's important to distinguish between fun projects and income-generating apps.

James and Kieran kick off 2025 with an in-depth discussion about the evolving landscape of app development. Kieran shares updates on his latest projects - Typoro (a LinkedIn post optimizer) and an AI TikTok video generator - while exploring the nuances of AI prompt engineering. The conversation delves into the concept of "hybrid building," combining no-code platforms like Bubble with traditional databases like Supabase and AI-generated code. They discuss the potential of AI agents, self driving startups, and how to effectively balance visual development with code-based solutions. Don't forget, the Create With Conference is returning on May 22nd, 2025 in London! Get your ticket now at https://createwith.com

In 2022 you migrated a blog from postgres to LiteFS. Is that generally recommended in 2025? How Useful is LiteFS in 2025?

Nikolay and Michael discuss Row Level Security in Postgres, focussing on the performance side effects and some tips to avoid (or minimize) them. Here are some links to things they mentioned:Row Security Policies (docs) https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/ddl-rowsecurity.html7+ million Postgres tables (recent talk by Kailash Nadh) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhi5Q_wL9i0Row Level Security guide (Supabase docs) https://supabase.com/docs/guides/database/postgres/row-level-securitycurrent_setting function https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/functions-admin.html#id-1.5.8.34.3.6.2.2.1.1.1.1Our slow count episode https://postgres.fm/episodes/slow-countRLS Performance and Best Practices (gist from Gary Austin) https://github.com/orgs/supabase/discussions/14576Everything you need to know about Postgres Row Level Security (talk by Paul Copplestone) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZT1Qx2xUCoBUFFERS enabled for EXPLAIN ANALYZE by default (commit for Postgres 18) https://git.postgresql.org/gitweb/?p=postgresql.git;a=commit;h=c2a4078ebad71999dd451ae7d4358be3c9290b07Add UUID version 7 generation function (commit for Postgres 18) https://git.postgresql.org/gitweb/?p=postgresql.git;a=commit;h=78c5e141e9c139fc2ff36a220334e4aa25e1b0ebPostgres hacking session with Andrey and Kirk (for UUIDv7): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPq_hiOE-N8~~~What did you like or not like? What should we discuss next time? Let us know via a YouTube comment, on social media, or by commenting on our Google doc!~~~Postgres FM is produced by:Michael Christofides, founder of pgMustardNikolay Samokhvalov, founder of Postgres.aiWith special thanks to:Jessie Draws for the elephant artwork 

У подкасті  It's raining cats&dogs або "Ллє як із відра" ми заглиблюємося в світ сучасних технологій та ділимося своїм досвідом. А заодно – що там у Front-End інженерів по роботі.

The full schedule for Latent Space LIVE! at NeurIPS has been announced, featuring Best of 2024 overview talks for the AI Startup Landscape, Computer Vision, Open Models, Transformers Killers, Synthetic Data, Agents, and Scaling, and speakers from Sarah Guo of Conviction, Roboflow, AI2/Meta, Recursal/Together, HuggingFace, OpenHands and SemiAnalysis. Join us for the IRL event/Livestream! Alessio will also be holding a meetup at AWS Re:Invent in Las Vegas this Wednesday. See our new Events page for dates of AI Engineer Summit, Singapore, and World's Fair in 2025. LAST CALL for questions for our big 2024 recap episode! Submit questions and messages on Speakpipe here for a chance to appear on the show!When we first observed that GPT Wrappers are Good, Actually, we did not even have Bolt on our radar. Since we recorded our Anthropic episode discussing building Agents with the new Claude 3.5 Sonnet, Bolt.new (by Stackblitz) has easily cleared the $8m ARR bar, repeating and accelerating its initial $4m feat.There are very many AI code generators and VS Code forks out there, but Bolt probably broke through initially because of its incredible zero shot low effort app generation:But as we explain in the pod, Bolt also emphasized deploy (Netlify)/ backend (Supabase)/ fullstack capabilities on top of Stackblitz's existing WebContainer full-WASM-powered-developer-environment-in-the-browser tech. Since then, the team has been shipping like mad (with weekly office hours), with bugfixing, full screen, multi-device, long context, diff based edits (using speculative decoding like we covered in Inference, Fast and Slow).All of this has captured the imagination of low/no code builders like Greg Isenberg and many others on YouTube/TikTok/Reddit/X/Linkedin etc:Just as with Fireworks, our relationship with Bolt/Stackblitz goes a bit deeper than normal - swyx advised the launch and got a front row seat to this epic journey, as well as demoed it with Realtime Voice at the recent OpenAI Dev Day. So we are very proud to be the first/closest to tell the full open story of Bolt/Stackblitz!Flow Engineering + Qodo/AlphaCodium UpdateIn year 2 of the pod we have been on a roll getting former guests to return as guest cohosts (Harrison Chase, Aman Sanger, Jon Frankle), and it was a pleasure to catch Itamar Friedman back on the pod, giving us an update on all things Qodo and Testing Agents from our last catchup a year and a half ago:Qodo (they renamed in September) went viral in early January this year with AlphaCodium (paper here, code here) beating DeepMind's AlphaCode with high efficiency:With a simple problem solving code agent:* The first step is to have the model reason about the problem. They describe it using bullet points and focus on the goal, inputs, outputs, rules, constraints, and any other relevant details.* Then, they make the model reason about the public tests and come up with an explanation of why the input leads to that particular output. * The model generates two to three potential solutions in text and ranks them in terms of correctness, simplicity, and robustness. * Then, it generates more diverse tests for the problem, covering cases not part of the original public tests. * Iteratively, pick a solution, generate the code, and run it on a few test cases. * If the tests fail, improve the code and repeat the process until the code passes every test.swyx has previously written similar thoughts on types vs tests for putting bounds on program behavior, but AlphaCodium extends this to AI generated tests and code.More recently, Itamar has also shown that AlphaCodium's techniques also extend well to the o1 models:Making Flow Engineering a useful technique to improve code model performance on every model. This is something we see AI Engineers uniquely well positioned to do compared to ML Engineers/Researchers.Full Video PodcastLike and subscribe!Show Notes* Itamar* Qodo* First episode* Eric* Bolt* StackBlitz* Thinkster* AlphaCodium* WebContainersChapters* 00:00:00 Introductions & Updates* 00:06:01 Generic vs. Specific AI Agents* 00:07:40 Maintaining vs Creating with AI* 00:17:46 Human vs Agent Computer Interfaces* 00:20:15 Why Docker doesn't work for Bolt* 00:24:23 Creating Testing and Code Review Loops* 00:28:07 Bolt's Task Breakdown Flow* 00:31:04 AI in Complex Enterprise Environments* 00:41:43 AlphaCodium* 00:44:39 Strategies for Breaking Down Complex Tasks* 00:45:22 Building in Open Source* 00:50:35 Choosing a product as a founder* 00:59:03 Reflections on Bolt Success* 01:06:07 Building a B2C GTM* 01:18:11 AI Capabilities and Pricing Tiers* 01:20:28 What makes Bolt unique* 01:23:07 Future Growth and Product Development* 01:29:06 Competitive Landscape in AI Engineering* 01:30:01 Advice to Founders and Embracing AI* 01:32:20 Having a baby and completing an Iron ManTranscriptAlessio [00:00:00]: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol.ai.Swyx [00:00:12]: Hey, and today we're still in our sort of makeshift in-between studio, but we're very delighted to have a former returning guest host, Itamar. Welcome back.Itamar [00:00:21]: Great to be here after a year or more. Yeah, a year and a half.Swyx [00:00:24]: You're one of our earliest guests on Agents. Now you're CEO co-founder of Kodo. Right. Which has just been renamed. You also raised a $40 million Series A, and we can get caught up on everything, but we're also delighted to have our new guest, Eric. Welcome.Eric [00:00:42]: Thank you. Excited to be here. Should I say Bolt or StackBlitz?Swyx [00:00:45]: Like, is it like its own company now or?Eric [00:00:47]: Yeah. Bolt's definitely bolt.new. That's the thing that we're probably the most known for, I imagine, at this point.Swyx [00:00:54]: Which is ridiculous to say because you were working at StackBlitz for so long.Eric [00:00:57]: Yeah. I mean, within a week, we were doing like double the amount of traffic. And StackBlitz had been online for seven years, and we were like, what? But anyways, yeah. So we're StackBlitz, the company behind bolt.new. If you've heard of bolt.new, that's our stuff. Yeah.Swyx [00:01:12]: Yeah.Itamar [00:01:13]: Excellent. I see, by the way, that the founder mode, you need to know to capture opportunities. So kudos on doing that, right? You're working on some technology, and then suddenly you can exploit that to a new world. Yeah.Eric [00:01:24]: Totally. And I think, well, not to jump, but 100%, I mean, a couple of months ago, we had the idea for Bolt earlier this year, but we haven't really shared this too much publicly. But we actually had tried to build it with some of those state-of-the-art models back in January, February, you can kind of imagine which, and they just weren't good enough to actually do the code generation where the code was accurate and it was fast and whatever have you without a ton of like rag, but then there was like issues with that. So we put it on the shelf and then we got kind of a sneak peek of some of the new models that have come out in the past couple of months now. And so once we saw that, once we actually saw the code gen from it, we were like, oh my God, like, okay, we can build a product around this. And so that was really the impetus of us building the thing. But with that, it was StackBlitz, the core StackBlitz product the past seven years has been an IDE for developers. So the entire user experience flow we've built up just didn't make sense. And so when we kind of went out to build Bolt, we just thought, you know, if we were inventing our product today, what would the interface look like given what is now possible with the AI code gen? And so there's definitely a lot of conversations we had internally, but you know, just kind of when we logically laid it out, we were like, yeah, I think it makes sense to just greenfield a new thing and let's see what happens. If it works great, then we'll figure it out. If it doesn't work great, then it'll get deleted at some point. So that's kind of how it actually came to be.Swyx [00:02:49]: I'll mention your background a little bit. You were also founder of Thinkster before you started StackBlitz. So both of you are second time founders. Both of you have sort of re-founded your company recently. Yours was more of a rename. I think a slightly different direction as well. And then we can talk about both. Maybe just chronologically, should we get caught up on where Kodo is first and then you know, just like what people should know since the last pod? Sure.Itamar [00:03:12]: The last pod was two months after we launched and we basically had the vision that we talked about. The idea that software development is about specification, test and code, etc. We are more on the testing part as in essence, we think that if you solve testing, you solve software development. The beautiful chart that we'll put up on screen. And testing is a really big field, like there are many dimensions, unit testing, the level of the component, how big it is, how large it is. And then there is like different type of testing, is it regression or smoke or whatever. So back then we only had like one ID extension with unit tests as in focus. One and a half year later, first ID extension supports more type of testing as context aware. We index local, local repos, but also 10,000s of repos for Fortune 500 companies. We have another agent, another tool that is called, the pure agent is the open source and the commercial one is CodoMerge. And then we have another open source called CoverAgent, which is not yet a commercial product coming very soon. It's very impressive. It could be that already people are approving automated pull requests that they don't even aware in really big open sources. So once we have enough of these, we will also launch another agent. So for the first one and a half year, what we did is grew in our offering and mostly on the side of, does this code actually works, testing, code review, et cetera. And we believe that's the critical milestone that needs to be achieved to actually have the AI engineer for enterprise software. And then like for the first year was everything bottom up, getting to 1 million installation. 2024, that was 2023, 2024 was starting to monetize, to feel like how it is to make the first buck. So we did the teams offering, it went well with a thousand of teams, et cetera. And then we started like just a few months ago to do enterprise with everything you need, which is a lot of things that discussed in the last post that was just released by Codelm. So that's how we call it at Codelm. Just opening the brackets, our company name was Codelm AI, and we renamed to Codo and we call our models Codelm. So back to my point, so we started Enterprise Motion and already have multiple Fortune 100 companies. And then with that, we raised a series of $40 million. And what's exciting about it is that enables us to develop more agents. That's our focus. I think it's very different. We're not coming very soon with an ID or something like that.Swyx [00:06:01]: You don't want to fork this code?Itamar [00:06:03]: Maybe we'll fork JetBrains or something just to be different.Swyx [00:06:08]: I noticed that, you know, I think the promise of general purpose agents has kind of died. Like everyone is doing kind of what you're doing. There's Codogen, Codomerge, and then there's a third one. What's the name of it?Itamar [00:06:17]: Yeah. Codocover. Cover. Which is like a commercial version of a cover agent. It's coming soon.Swyx [00:06:23]: Yeah. It's very similar with factory AI, also doing like droids. They all have special purpose doing things, but people don't really want general purpose agents. Right. The last time you were here, we talked about AutoGBT, the biggest thing of 2023. This year, not really relevant anymore. And I think it's mostly just because when you give me a general purpose agent, I don't know what to do with it.Eric [00:06:42]: Yeah.Itamar [00:06:43]: I totally agree with that. We're seeing it for a while and I think it will stay like that despite the computer use, et cetera, that supposedly can just replace us. You can just like prompt it to be, hey, now be a QA or be a QA person or a developer. I still think that there's a few reasons why you see like a dedicated agent. Again, I'm a bit more focused, like my head is more on complex software for big teams and enterprise, et cetera. And even think about permissions and what are the data sources and just the same way you manage permissions for users. Developers, you probably want to have dedicated guardrails and dedicated approvals for agents. I intentionally like touched a point on not many people think about. And of course, then what you can think of, like maybe there's different tools, tool use, et cetera. But just the first point by itself is a good reason why you want to have different agents.Alessio [00:07:40]: Just to compare that with Bot.new, you're almost focused on like the application is very complex and now you need better tools to kind of manage it and build on top of it. On Bot.new, it's almost like I was using it the other day. There's basically like, hey, look, I'm just trying to get started. You know, I'm not very opinionated on like how you're going to implement this. Like this is what I want to do. And you build a beautiful app with it. What people ask as the next step, you know, going back to like the general versus like specific, have you had people say, hey, you know, this is great to start, but then I want a specific Bot.new dot whatever else to do a more vertical integration and kind of like development or what's the, what do people say?Eric [00:08:18]: Yeah. I think, I think you kind of hit the, hit it head on, which is, you know, kind of the way that we've, we've kind of talked about internally is it's like people are using Bolt to go from like 0.0 to 1.0, like that's like kind of the biggest unlock that Bolt has versus most other things out there. I mean, I think that's kind of what's, what's very unique about Bolt. I think the, you know, the working on like existing enterprise applications is, I mean, it's crazy important because, you know, there's a, you look, when you look at the fortune 500, I mean, these code bases, some of these have been around for 20, 30 plus years. And so it's important to be going from, you know, 101.3 to 101.4, et cetera. I think for us, so what's been actually pretty interesting is we see there's kind of two different users for us that are coming in and it's very distinct. It's like people that are developers already. And then there's people that have never really written software and more if they have, it's been very, very minimal. And so in the first camp, what these developers are doing, like to go from zero to one, they're coming to Bolt and then they're ejecting the thing to get up or just downloading it and, you know, opening cursor, like whatever to, to, you know, keep iterating on the thing. And sometimes they'll bring it back to Bolt to like add in a huge piece of functionality or something. Right. But for the people that don't know how to code, they're actually just, they, they live in this thing. And that was one of the weird things when we launched is, you know, within a day of us being online, one of the most popular YouTube videos, and there's been a ton since, which was, you know, there's like, oh, Bolt is the cursor killer. And I originally saw the headlines and I was like, thanks for the views. I mean, I don't know. This doesn't make sense to me. That's not, that's not what we kind of thought.Swyx [00:09:44]: It's how YouTubers talk to each other. Well, everything kills everything else.Eric [00:09:47]: Totally. But what blew my mind was that there was any comparison because it's like cursor is a, is a local IDE product. But when, when we actually kind of dug into it and we, and we have people that are using our product saying this, I'm not using cursor. And I was like, what? And it turns out there are hundreds of thousands of people that we have seen that we're using cursor and we're trying to build apps with that where they're not traditional software does, but we're heavily leaning on the AI. And as you can imagine, it is very complicated, right? To do that with cursor. So when Bolt came out, they're like, wow, this thing's amazing because it kind of inverts the complexity where it's like, you know, it's not an IDE, it's, it's a, it's a chat-based sort of interface that we have. So that's kind of the split, which is rather interesting. We've had like the first startups now launch off of Bolt entirely where this, you know, tomorrow I'm doing a live stream with this guy named Paul, who he's built an entire CRM using this thing and you know, with backend, et cetera. And people have made their first money on the internet period, you know, launching this with Stripe or whatever have you. So that's, that's kind of the two main, the two main categories of folks that we see using Bolt though.Itamar [00:10:51]: I agree that I don't understand the comparison. It doesn't make sense to me. I think like we have like two type of families of tools. One is like we re-imagine the software development. I think Bolt is there and I think like a cursor is more like a evolution of what we already have. It's like taking the IDE and it's, it's amazing and it's okay, let's, let's adapt the IDE to an era where LLMs can do a lot for us. And Bolt is more like, okay, let's rethink everything totally. And I think we see a few tools there, like maybe Vercel, Veo and maybe Repl.it in that area. And then in the area of let's expedite, let's change, let's, let's progress with what we already have. You can see Cursor and Kodo, but we're different between ourselves, Cursor and Kodo, but definitely I think that comparison doesn't make sense.Alessio [00:11:42]: And just to set the context, this is not a Twitter demo. You've made 4 million of revenue in four weeks. So this is, this is actually working, you know, it's not a, what, what do you think that is? Like, there's been so many people demoing coding agents on Twitter and then it doesn't really work. And then you guys were just like, here you go, it's live, go use it, pay us for it. You know, is there anything in the development that was like interesting and maybe how that compares to building your own agents?Eric [00:12:08]: We had no idea, honestly, like we, we, we've been pretty blown away and, and things have just kind of continued to grow faster since then. We're like, oh, today is week six. So I, I kind of came back to the point you just made, right, where it's, you, you kind of outlined, it's like, there's kind of this new market of like kind of rethinking the software development and then there's heavily augmenting existing developers. I think that, you know, both of which are, you know, AI code gen being extremely good, it's allowed existing developers, it's allowing existing developers to camera out software far faster than they could have ever before, right? It's like the ultimate power tool for an existing developer. But this code gen stuff is now so good. And then, and we saw this over the past, you know, from the beginning of the year when we tried to first build, it's actually lowered the barrier to people that, that aren't traditionally software engineers. But the kind of the key thing is if you kind of think about it from, imagine you've never written software before, right? My co-founder and I, he and I grew up down the street from each other in Chicago. We learned how to code when we were 13 together and we've been building stuff ever since. And this is back in like the mid 2000s or whatever, you know, there was nothing for free to learn from online on the internet and how to code. For our 13th birthdays, we asked our parents for, you know, O'Reilly books cause you couldn't get this at the library, right? And so instead of like an Xbox, we got, you know, programming books. But the hardest part for everyone learning to code is getting an environment set up locally, you know? And so when we built StackBlitz, like kind of the key thesis, like seven years ago, the insight we had was that, Hey, it seems like the browser has a lot of new APIs like WebAssembly and service workers, et cetera, where you could actually write an operating system that ran inside the browser that could boot in milliseconds. And you, you know, basically there's this missing capability of the web. Like the web should be able to build apps for the web, right? You should be able to build the web on the web. Every other platform has that, Visual Studio for Windows, Xcode for Mac. The web has no built in primitive for this. And so just like our built in kind of like nerd instinct on this was like, that seems like a huge hole and it's, you know, it will be very valuable or like, you know, very valuable problem to solve. So if you want to set up that environments, you know, this is what we spent the past seven years doing. And the reality is existing developers have running locally. They already know how to set up that environment. So the problem isn't as acute for them. When we put Bolt online, we took that technology called WebContainer and married it with these, you know, state of the art frontier models. And the people that have the most pain with getting stuff set up locally is people that don't code. I think that's been, you know, really the big explosive reason is no one else has been trying to make dev environments work inside of a browser tab, you know, for the past if since ever, other than basically our company, largely because there wasn't an immediate demand or need. So I think we kind of find ourselves at the right place at the right time. And again, for this market of people that don't know how to write software, you would kind of expect that you should be able to do this without downloading something to your computer in the same way that, hey, I don't have to download Photoshop now to make designs because there's Figma. I don't have to download Word because there's, you know, Google Docs. They're kind of looking at this as that sort of thing, right? Which was kind of the, you know, our impetus and kind of vision from the get-go. But you know, the code gen, the AI code gen stuff that's come out has just been, you know, an order of magnitude multiplier on how magic that is, right? So that's kind of my best distillation of like, what is going on here, you know?Alessio [00:15:21]: And you can deploy too, right?Eric [00:15:22]: Yeah.Alessio [00:15:23]: Yeah.Eric [00:15:24]: And so that's, what's really cool is it's, you know, we have deployment built in with Netlify and this is actually, I think, Sean, you actually built this at Netlify when you were there. Yeah. It's one of the most brilliant integrations actually, because, you know, effectively the API that Sean built, maybe you can speak to it, but like as a provider, we can just effectively give files to Netlify without the user even logging in and they have a live website. And if they want to keep, hold onto it, they can click a link and claim it to their Netlify account. But it basically is just this really magic experience because when you come to Bolt, you say, I want a website. Like my mom, 70, 71 years old, made her first website, you know, on the internet two weeks ago, right? It was about her nursing days.Swyx [00:16:03]: Oh, that's fantastic though. It wouldn't have been made.Eric [00:16:06]: A hundred percent. Cause even in, you know, when we've had a lot of people building personal, like deeply personal stuff, like in the first week we launched this, the sales guy from the East Coast, you know, replied to a tweet of mine and he said, thank you so much for building this to your team. His daughter has a medical condition and so for her to travel, she has to like line up donors or something, you know, so ahead of time. And so he actually used Bolt to make a website to do that, to actually go and send it to folks in the region she was going to travel to ahead of time. I was really touched by it, but I also thought like, why, you know, why didn't he use like Wix or Squarespace? Right? I mean, this is, this is a solved problem, quote unquote, right? And then when I thought, I actually use Squarespace for my, for my, uh, the wedding website for my wife and I, like back in 2021, so I'm familiar, you know, it was, it was faster. I know how to code. I was like, this is faster. Right. And I thought back and I was like, there's a whole interface you have to learn how to use. And it's actually not that simple. There's like a million things you can configure in that thing. When you come to Bolt, there's a, there's a text box. You just say, I need a, I need a wedding website. Here's the date. Here's where it is. And here's a photo of me and my wife, put it somewhere relevant. It's actually the simplest way. And that's what my, when my mom came, she said, uh, I'm Pat Simons. I was a nurse in the seventies, you know, and like, here's the things I did and a website came out. So coming back to why is this such a, I think, why are we seeing this sort of growth? It's, this is the simplest interface I think maybe ever created to actually build it, a deploy a website. And then that website, my mom made, she's like, okay, this looks great. And there's, there's one button, you just click it, deploy, and it's live and you can buy a domain name, attach it to it. And you know, it's as simple as it gets, it's getting even simpler with some of the stuff we're working on. But anyways, so that's, it's, it's, uh, it's been really interesting to see some of the usage like that.Swyx [00:17:46]: I can offer my perspective. So I, you know, I probably should have disclosed a little bit that, uh, I'm a, uh, stack list investor.Alessio [00:17:53]: Canceled the episode. I know, I know. Don't play it now. Pause.Eric actually reached out to ShowMeBolt before the launch. And we, you know, we talked a lot about, like, the framing of, of what we're going to talk about how we marketed the thing, but also, like, what we're So that's what Bolt was going to need, like a whole sort of infrastructure.swyx: Netlify, I was a maintainer but I won't take claim for the anonymous upload. That's actually the origin story of Netlify. We can have Matt Billman talk about it, but that was [00:18:00] how Netlify started. You could drag and drop your zip file or folder from your desktop onto a website, it would have a live URL with no sign in.swyx: And so that was the origin story of Netlify. And it just persists to today. And it's just like it's really nice, interesting that both Bolt and CognitionDevIn and a bunch of other sort of agent type startups, they all use Netlify to deploy because of this one feature. They don't really care about the other features.swyx: But, but just because it's easy for computers to use and talk to it, like if you build an interface for computers specifically, that it's easy for them to Navigate, then they will be used in agents. And I think that's a learning that a lot of developer tools companies are having. That's my bolt launch story and now if I say all that stuff.swyx: And I just wanted to come back to, like, the Webcontainers things, right? Like, I think you put a lot of weight on the technical modes. I think you also are just like, very good at product. So you've, you've like, built a better agent than a lot of people, the rest of us, including myself, who have tried to build these things, and we didn't get as far as you did.swyx: Don't shortchange yourself on products. But I think specifically [00:19:00] on, on infra, on like the sandboxing, like this is a thing that people really want. Alessio has Bax E2B, which we'll have on at some point, talking about like the sort of the server full side. But yours is, you know, inside of the browser, serverless.swyx: It doesn't cost you anything to serve one person versus a million people. It doesn't, doesn't cost you anything. I think that's interesting. I think in theory, we should be able to like run tests because you can run the full backend. Like, you can run Git, you can run Node, you can run maybe Python someday.swyx: We talked about this. But ideally, you should be able to have a fully gentic loop, running code, seeing the errors, correcting code, and just kind of self healing, right? Like, I mean, isn't that the dream?Eric: Totally.swyx: Yeah,Eric: totally. At least in bold, we've got, we've got a good amount of that today. I mean, there's a lot more for us to do, but one of the nice things, because like in web container, you know, there's a lot of kind of stuff you go Google like, you know, turn docker container into wasm.Eric: You'll find a lot of stuff out there that will do that. The problem is it's very big, it's slow, and that ruins the experience. And so what we ended up doing is just writing an operating system from [00:20:00] scratch that was just purpose built to, you know, run in a browser tab. And the reason being is, you know, Docker 2 awesome things will give you an image that's like out 60 to 100 megabits, you know, maybe more, you know, and our, our OS, you know, kind of clocks in, I think, I think we're in like a, maybe, maybe a megabyte or less or something like that.Eric: I mean, it's, it's, you know, really, really, you know, stripped down.swyx: This is basically the task involved is I understand that it's. Mapping every single, single Linux call to some kind of web, web assembly implementation,Eric: but more or less, and, and then there's a lot of things actually, like when you're looking at a dev environment, there's a lot of things that you don't need that a traditional OS is gonna have, right?Eric: Like, you know audio drivers or you like, there's just like, there's just tons of things. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. That goes . Yeah. You can just kind, you can, you can kind of tos them. Or alternatively, what you can do is you can actually be the nice thing. And this is, this kind of comes back to the origins of browsers, which is, you know, they're, they're at the beginning of the web and, you know, the late nineties, there was two very different kind of visions for the web where Alan Kay vehemently [00:21:00] disagree with the idea that should be document based, which is, you know, Tim Berners Lee, you know, that, and that's kind of what ended up winning, winning was this document based kind of browsing documents on the web thing.Eric: Alan Kay, he's got this like very famous quote where he said, you know, you want web browsers to be mini operating systems. They should download little mini binaries and execute with like a little mini virtualized operating system in there. And what's kind of interesting about the history, not to geek out on this aspect, what's kind of interesting about the history is both of those folks ended up being right.Eric: Documents were actually the pragmatic way that the web worked. Was, you know, became the most ubiquitous platform in the world to the degree now that this is why WebAssembly has been invented is that we're doing, we need to do more low level things in a browser, same thing with WebGPU, et cetera. And so all these APIs, you know, to build an operating system came to the browser.Eric: And that was actually the realization we had in 2017 was, holy heck, like you can actually, you know, service workers, which were designed for allowing your app to work offline. That was the kind of the key one where it was like, wait a second, you can actually now run. Web servers within a [00:22:00] browser, like you can run a server that you open up.Eric: That's wild. Like full Node. js. Full Node. js. Like that capability. Like, I can have a URL that's programmatically controlled. By a web application itself, boom. Like the web can build the web. The primitive is there. Everyone at the time, like we talked to people that like worked on, you know Chrome and V8 and they were like, uhhhh.Eric: You know, like I don't know. But it's one of those things you just kind of have to go do it to find out. So we spent a couple of years, you know, working on it and yeah. And, and, and got to work in back in 2021 is when we kind of put the first like data of web container online. Butswyx: in partnership with Google, right?swyx: Like Google actually had to help you get over the finish line with stuff.Eric: A hundred percent, because well, you know, over the years of when we were doing the R and D on the thing. Kind of the biggest challenge, the two ways that you can kind of test how powerful and capable a platform are, the two types of applications are one, video games, right, because they're just very compute intensive, a lot of calculations that have to happen, right?Eric: The second one are IDEs, because you're talking about actually virtualizing the actual [00:23:00] runtime environment you are in to actually build apps on top of it, which requires sophisticated capabilities, a lot of access to data. You know, a good amount of compute power, right, to effectively, you know, building app in app sort of thing.Eric: So those, those are the stress tests. So if your platform is missing stuff, those are the things where you find out. Those are, those are the people building games and IDEs. They're the ones filing bugs on operating system level stuff. And for us, browser level stuff.Eric [00:23:47]: yeah, what ended up happening is we were just hammering, you know, the Chromium bug tracker, and they're like, who are these guys? Yeah. And, and they were amazing because I mean, just making Chrome DevTools be able to debug, I mean, it's, it's not, it wasn't originally built right for debugging an operating system, right? They've been phenomenal working with us and just kind of really pushing the limits, but that it's a rising tide that's kind of lifted all boats because now there's a lot of different types of applications that you can debug with Chrome Dev Tools that are running a browser that runs more reliably because just the stress testing that, that we and, you know, games that are coming to the web are kind of pushing as well, but.Itamar [00:24:23]: That's awesome. About the testing, I think like most, let's say coding assistant from different kinds will need this loop of testing. And even I would add code review to some, to some extent that you mentioned. How is testing different from code review? Code review could be, for example, PR review, like a code review that is done at the point of when you want to merge branches. But I would say that code review, for example, checks best practices, maintainability, and so on. It's not just like CI, but more than CI. And testing is like a more like checking functionality, et cetera. So it's different. We call, by the way, all of these together code integrity, but that's a different story. Just to go back to the, to the testing and specifically. Yeah. It's, it's, it's since the first slide. Yeah. We're consistent. So if we go back to the testing, I think like, it's not surprising that for us testing is important and for Bolt it's testing important, but I want to shed some light on a different perspective of it. Like let's think about autonomous driving. Those startups that are doing autonomous driving for highway and autonomous driving for the city. And I think like we saw the autonomous of the highway much faster and reaching to a level, I don't know, four or so much faster than those in the city. Now, in both cases, you need testing and quote unquote testing, you know, verifying validation that you're doing the right thing on the road and you're reading and et cetera. But it's probably like so different in the city that it could be like actually different technology. And I claim that we're seeing something similar here. So when you're building the next Wix, and if I was them, I was like looking at you and being a bit scared. That's what you're disrupting, what you just said. Then basically, I would say that, for example, the UX UI is freaking important. And because you're you're more aiming for the end user. In this case, maybe it's an end user that doesn't know how to develop for developers. It's also important. But let alone those that do not know to develop, they need a slick UI UX. And I think like that's one reason, for example, I think Cursor have like really good technology. I don't know the underlying what's under the hood, but at least what they're saying. But I think also their UX UI is great. It's a lot because they did their own ID. While if you're aiming for the city AI, suddenly like there's a lot of testing and code review technology that it's not necessarily like that important. For example, let's talk about integration tests. Probably like a lot of what you're building involved at the moment is isolated applications. Maybe the vision or the end game is maybe like having one solution for everything. It could be that eventually the highway companies will go into the city and the other way around. But at the beginning, there is a difference. And integration tests are a good example. I guess they're a bit less important. And when you think about enterprise software, they're really important. So to recap, like I think like the idea of looping and verifying your test and verifying your code in different ways, testing or code review, et cetera, seems to be important in the highway AI and the city AI, but in different ways and different like critical for the city, even more and more variety. Actually, I was looking to ask you like what kind of loops you guys are doing. For example, when I'm using Bolt and I'm enjoying it a lot, then I do see like sometimes you're trying to catch the errors and fix them. And also, I noticed that you're breaking down tasks into smaller ones and then et cetera, which is already a common notion for a year ago. But it seems like you're doing it really well. So if you're willing to share anything about it.Eric [00:28:07]: Yeah, yeah. I realized I never actually hit the punchline of what I was saying before. I mentioned the point about us kind of writing an operating system from scratch because what ended up being important about that is that to your point, it's actually a very, like compared to like a, you know, if you're like running cursor on anyone's machine, you kind of don't know what you're dealing with, with the OS you're running on. There could be an error happens. It could be like a million different things, right? There could be some config. There could be, it could be God knows what, right? The thing with WebConnect is because we wrote the entire thing from scratch. It's actually a unified image basically. And we can instrument it at any level that we think is going to be useful, which is exactly what we did when we started building Bolt is we instrumented stuff at like the process level, at the runtime level, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Stuff that would just be not impossible to do on local, but to do that in a way that works across any operating system, whatever is, I mean, would just be insanely, you know, insanely difficult to do right and reliably. And that's what you saw when you've used Bolt is that when an error actually will occur, whether it's in the build process or the actual web application itself is failing or anything kind of in between, you can actually capture those errors. And today it's a very primitive way of how we've implemented it largely because the product just didn't exist 90 days ago. So we're like, we got some work ahead of us and we got to hire some more a little bit, but basically we present and we say, Hey, this is, here's kind of the things that went wrong. There's a fix it button and then a ignore button, and then you can just hit fix it. And then we take all that telemetry through our agent, you run it through our agent and say, kind of, here's the state of the application. Here's kind of the errors that we got from Node.js or the browser or whatever, and like dah, dah, dah, dah. And it can take a crack at actually solving it. And it's actually pretty darn good at being able to do that. That's kind of been a, you know, closing the loop and having it be a reliable kind of base has seemed to be a pretty big upgrade over doing stuff locally, just because I think that's a pretty key ingredient of it. And yeah, I think breaking things down into smaller tasks, like that's, that's kind of a key part of our agent. I think like Claude did a really good job with artifacts. I think, you know, us and kind of everyone else has, has kind of taken their approach of like actually breaking out certain tasks in a certain order into, you know, kind of a concrete way. And, and so actually the core of Bolt, I know we actually made open source. So you can actually go and check out like the system prompts and et cetera, and you can run it locally and whatever have you. So anyone that's interested in this stuff, I'd highly recommend taking a look at. There's not a lot of like stuff that's like open source in this realm. It's, that was one of the fun things that we've we thought would be cool to do. And people, people seem to like it. I mean, there's a lot of forks and people adding different models and stuff. So it's been cool to see.Swyx [00:30:41]: Yeah. I'm happy to add, I added real-time voice for my opening day demo and it was really fun to hack with. So thank you for doing that. Yeah. Thank you. I'm going to steal your code.Eric [00:30:52]: Because I want that.Swyx [00:30:52]: It's funny because I built on top of the fork of Bolt.new that already has the multi LLM thing. And so you just told me you're going to merge that in. So then you're going to merge two layers of forks down into this thing. So it'll be fun.Eric [00:31:03]: Heck yeah.Alessio [00:31:04]: Just to touch on like the environment, Itamar, you maybe go into the most complicated environments that even the people that work there don't know how to run. How much of an impact does that have on your performance? Like, you know, it's most of the work you're doing actually figuring out environment and like the libraries, because I'm sure they're using outdated version of languages, they're using outdated libraries, they're using forks that have not been on the public internet before. How much of the work that you're doing is like there versus like at the LLM level?Itamar [00:31:32]: One of the reasons I was asking about, you know, what are the steps to break things down, because it really matters. Like, what's the tech stack? How complicated the software is? It's hard to figure it out when you're dealing with the real world, any environment of enterprise as a city, when I'm like, while maybe sometimes like, I think you do enable like in Bolt, like to install stuff, but it's quite a like controlled environment. And that's a good thing to do, because then you narrow down and it's easier to make things work. So definitely, there are two dimensions, I think, actually spaces. One is the fact just like installing our software without yet like doing anything, making it work, just installing it because we work with enterprise and Fortune 500, etc. Many of them want on prem solution.Swyx [00:32:22]: So you have how many deployment options?Itamar [00:32:24]: Basically, we had, we did a metric metrics, say 96 options, because, you know, they're different dimensions. Like, for example, one dimension, we connect to your code management system to your Git. So are you having like GitHub, GitLab? Subversion? Is it like on cloud or deployed on prem? Just an example. Which model agree to use its APIs or ours? Like we have our Is it TestGPT? Yeah, when we started with TestGPT, it was a huge mistake name. It was cool back then, but I don't think it's a good idea to name a model after someone else's model. Anyway, that's my opinion. So we gotSwyx [00:33:02]: I'm interested in these learnings, like things that you change your mind on.Itamar [00:33:06]: Eventually, when you're building a company, you're building a brand and you want to create your own brand. By the way, when I thought about Bolt.new, I also thought about if it's not a problem, because when I think about Bolt, I do think about like a couple of companies that are already called this way.Swyx [00:33:19]: Curse companies. You could call it Codium just to...Itamar [00:33:24]: Okay, thank you. Touche. Touche.Eric [00:33:27]: Yeah, you got to imagine the board meeting before we launched Bolt, one of our investors, you can imagine they're like, are you sure? Because from the investment side, it's kind of a famous, very notorious Bolt. And they're like, are you sure you want to go with that name? Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.Itamar [00:33:43]: At this point, we have actually four models. There is a model for autocomplete. There's a model for the chat. There is a model dedicated for more for code review. And there is a model that is for code embedding. Actually, you might notice that there isn't a good code embedding model out there. Can you name one? Like dedicated for code?Swyx [00:34:04]: There's code indexing, and then you can do sort of like the hide for code. And then you can embed the descriptions of the code.Itamar [00:34:12]: Yeah, but you do see a lot of type of models that are dedicated for embedding and for different spaces, different fields, etc. And I'm not aware. And I know that if you go to the bedrock, try to find like there's a few code embedding models, but none of them are specialized for code.Swyx [00:34:31]: Is there a benchmark that you would tell us to pay attention to?Itamar [00:34:34]: Yeah, so it's coming. Wait for that. Anyway, we have our models. And just to go back to the 96 option of deployment. So I'm closing the brackets for us. So one is like dimensional, like what Git deployment you have, like what models do you agree to use? Dotter could be like if it's air-gapped completely, or you want VPC, and then you have Azure, GCP, and AWS, which is different. Do you use Kubernetes or do not? Because we want to exploit that. There are companies that do not do that, etc. I guess you know what I mean. So that's one thing. And considering that we are dealing with one of all four enterprises, we needed to deal with that. So you asked me about how complicated it is to solve that complex code. I said, it's just a deployment part. And then now to the software, we see a lot of different challenges. For example, some companies, they did actually a good job to build a lot of microservices. Let's not get to if it's good or not, but let's first assume that it is a good thing. A lot of microservices, each one of them has their own repo. And now you have tens of thousands of repos. And you as a developer want to develop something. And I remember me coming to a corporate for the first time. I don't know where to look at, like where to find things. So just doing a good indexing for that is like a challenge. And moreover, the regular indexing, the one that you can find, we wrote a few blogs on that. By the way, we also have some open source, different than yours, but actually three and growing. Then it doesn't work. You need to let the tech leads and the companies influence your indexing. For example, Mark with different repos with different colors. This is a high quality repo. This is a lower quality repo. This is a repo that we want to deprecate. This is a repo we want to grow, etc. And let that be part of your indexing. And only then things actually work for enterprise and they don't get to a fatigue of, oh, this is awesome. Oh, but I'm starting, it's annoying me. I think Copilot is an amazing tool, but I'm quoting others, meaning GitHub Copilot, that they see not so good retention of GitHub Copilot and enterprise. Ooh, spicy. Yeah. I saw snapshots of people and we have customers that are Copilot users as well. And also I saw research, some of them is public by the way, between 38 to 50% retention for users using Copilot and enterprise. So it's not so good. By the way, I don't think it's that bad, but it's not so good. So I think that's a reason because, yeah, it helps you auto-complete, but then, and especially if you're working on your repo alone, but if it's need that context of remote repos that you're code-based, that's hard. So to make things work, there's a lot of work on that, like giving the controllability for the tech leads, for the developer platform or developer experience department in the organization to influence how things are working. A short example, because if you have like really old legacy code, probably some of it is not so good anymore. If you just fine tune on these code base, then there is a bias to repeat those mistakes or old practices, etc. So you need, for example, as I mentioned, to influence that. For example, in Coda, you can have a markdown of best practices by the tech leads and Coda will include that and relate to that and will not offer suggestions that are not according to the best practices, just as an example. So that's just a short list of things that you need to do in order to deal with, like you mentioned, the 100.1 to 100.2 version of software. I just want to say what you're doing is extremelyEric [00:38:32]: impressive because it's very difficult. I mean, the business of Stackplus, kind of before bulk came online, we sold a version of our IDE that went on-prem. So I understand what you're saying about the difficulty of getting stuff just working on-prem. Holy heck. I mean, that is extremely hard. I guess the question I have for you is, I mean, we were just doing that with kind of Kubernetes-based stuff, but the spread of Fortune 500 companies that you're working with, how are they doing the inference for this? Are you kind of plugging into Azure's OpenAI stuff and AWS's Bedrock, you know, Cloud stuff? Or are they just like running stuff on GPUs? Like, what is that? How are these folks approaching that? Because, man, what we saw on the enterprise side, I mean, I got to imagine that that's a huge challenge. Everything you said and more, like,Itamar [00:39:15]: for example, like someone could be, and I don't think any of these is bad. Like, they made their decision. Like, for example, some people, they're, I want only AWS and VPC on AWS, no matter what. And then they, some of them, like there is a subset, I will say, I'm willing to take models only for from Bedrock and not ours. And we have a problem because there is no good code embedding model on Bedrock. And that's part of what we're doing now with AWS to solve that. We solve it in a different way. But if you are willing to run on AWS VPC, but run your run models on GPUs or inferentia, like the new version of the more coming out, then our models can run on that. But everything you said is right. Like, we see like on-prem deployment where they have their own GPUs. We see Azure where you're using OpenAI Azure. We see cases where you're running on GCP and they want OpenAI. Like this cross, like a case, although there is Gemini or even Sonnet, I think is available on GCP, just an example. So all the options, that's part of the challenge. I admit that we thought about it, but it was even more complicated. And it took us a few months to actually, that metrics that I mentioned, to start clicking each one of the blocks there. A few months is impressive. I mean,Eric [00:40:35]: honestly, just that's okay. Every one of these enterprises is, their networking is different. Just everything's different. Every single one is different. I see you understand. Yeah. So that just cannot be understated. That it is, that's extremely impressive. Hats off.Itamar [00:40:50]: It could be, by the way, like, for example, oh, we're only AWS, but our GitHub enterprise is on-prem. Oh, we forgot. So we need like a private link or whatever, like every time like that. It's not, and you do need to think about it if you want to work with an enterprise. And it's important. Like I understand like their, I respect their point of view.Swyx [00:41:10]: And this primarily impacts your architecture, your tech choices. Like you have to, you can't choose some vendors because...Itamar [00:41:15]: Yeah, definitely. To be frank, it makes us hard for a startup because it means that we want, we want everyone to enjoy all the variety of models. By the way, it was hard for us with our technology. I want to open a bracket, like a window. I guess you're familiar with our Alpha Codium, which is an open source.Eric [00:41:33]: We got to go over that. Yeah. So I'll do that quickly.Itamar [00:41:36]: Yeah. A pin in that. Yeah. Actually, we didn't have it in the last episode. So, so, okay.Swyx [00:41:41]: Okay. We'll come back to that later, but let's talk about...Itamar [00:41:43]: Yeah. So, so just like shortly, and then we can double click on Alpha Codium. But Alpha Codium is a open source tool. You can go and try it and lets you compete on CodeForce. This is a website and a competition and actually reach a master level level, like 95% with a click of a button. You don't need to do anything. And part of what we did there is taking a problem and breaking it to different, like smaller blocks. And then the models are doing a much better job. Like we all know it by now that taking small tasks and solving them, by the way, even O1, which is supposed to be able to do system two thinking like Greg from OpenAI like hinted, is doing better on these kinds of problems. But still, it's very useful to break it down for O1, despite O1 being able to think by itself. And that's what we presented like just a month ago, OpenAI released that now they are doing 93 percentile with O1 IOI left and International Olympiad of Formation. Sorry, I forgot. Exactly. I told you I forgot. And we took their O1 preview with Alpha Codium and did better. Like it just shows like, and there is a big difference between the preview and the IOI. It shows like that these models are not still system two thinkers, and there is a big difference. So maybe they're not complete system two. Yeah, they need some guidance. I call them system 1.5. We can, we can have it. I thought about it. Like, you know, I care about this philosophy stuff. And I think like we didn't see it even close to a system two thinking. I can elaborate later. But closing the brackets, like we take Alpha Codium and as our principle of thinking, we take tasks and break them down to smaller tasks. And then we want to exploit the best model to solve them. So I want to enable anyone to enjoy O1 and SONET and Gemini 1.5, etc. But at the same time, I need to develop my own models as well, because some of the Fortune 500 want to have all air gapped or whatever. So that's a challenge. Now you need to support so many models. And to some extent, I would say that the flow engineering, the breaking down to two different blocks is a necessity for us. Why? Because when you take a big block, a big problem, you need a very different prompt for each one of the models to actually work. But when you take a big problem and break it into small tasks, we can talk how we do that, then the prompt matters less. What I want to say, like all this, like as a startup trying to do different deployment, getting all the juice that you can get from models, etc. is a big problem. And one need to think about it. And one of our mitigation is that process of taking tasks and breaking them down. That's why I'm really interested to know how you guys are doing it. And part of what we do is also open source. So you can see.Swyx [00:44:39]: There's a lot in there. But yeah, flow over prompt. I do believe that that does make sense. I feel like there's a lot that both of you can sort of exchange notes on breaking down problems. And I just want you guys to just go for it. This is fun to watch.Eric [00:44:55]: Yeah. I mean, what's super interesting is the context you're working in is, because for us too with Bolt, we've started thinking because our kind of existing business line was going behind the firewall, right? We were like, how do we do this? Adding the inference aspect on, we're like, okay, how does... Because I mean, there's not a lot of prior art, right? I mean, this is all new. This is all new. So I definitely am going to have a lot of questions for you.Itamar [00:45:17]: I'm here. We're very open, by the way. We have a paper on a blog or like whatever.Swyx [00:45:22]: The Alphacodeum, GitHub, and we'll put all this in the show notes.Itamar [00:45:25]: Yeah. And even the new results of O1, we published it.Eric [00:45:29]: I love that. And I also just, I think spiritually, I like your approach of being transparent. Because I think there's a lot of hype-ium around AI stuff. And a lot of it is, it's just like, you have these companies that are just kind of keep their stuff closed source and then just max hype it, but then it's kind of nothing. And I think it kind of gives a bad rep to the incredible stuff that's actually happening here. And so I think it's stuff like what you're doing where, I mean, true merit and you're cracking open actual code for others to learn from and use. That strikes me as the right approach. And it's great to hear that you're making such incredible progress.Itamar [00:46:02]: I have something to share about the open source. Most of our tools are, we have an open source version and then a premium pro version. But it's not an easy decision to do that. I actually wanted to ask you about your strategy, but I think in your case, there is, in my opinion, relatively a good strategy where a lot of parts of open source, but then you have the deployment and the environment, which is not right if I get it correctly. And then there's a clear, almost hugging face model. Yeah, you can do that, but why should you try to deploy it yourself, deploy it with us? But in our case, and I'm not sure you're not going to hit also some competitors, and I guess you are. I wanted to ask you, for example, on some of them. In our case, one day we looked on one of our competitors that is doing code review. We're a platform. We have the code review, the testing, et cetera, spread over the ID to get. And in each agent, we have a few startups or a big incumbents that are doing only that. So we noticed one of our competitors having not only a very similar UI of our open source, but actually even our typo. And you sit there and you're kind of like, yeah, we're not that good. We don't use enough Grammarly or whatever. And we had a couple of these and we saw it there. And then it's a challenge. And I want to ask you, Bald is doing so well, and then you open source it. So I think I know what my answer was. I gave it before, but still interestingEric [00:47:29]: to hear what you think. GeoHot said back, I don't know who he was up to at this exact moment, but I think on comma AI, all that stuff's open source. And someone had asked him, why is this open source? And he's like, if you're not actually confident that you can go and crush it and build the best thing, then yeah, you should probably keep your stuff closed source. He said something akin to that. I'm probably kind of butchering it, but I thought it was kind of a really good point. And that's not to say that you should just open source everything, because for obvious reasons, there's kind of strategic things you have to kind of take in mind. But I actually think a pretty liberal approach, as liberal as you kind of can be, it can really make a lot of sense. Because that is so validating that one of your competitors is taking your stuff and they're like, yeah, let's just kind of tweak the styles. I mean, clearly, right? I think it's kind of healthy because it keeps, I'm sure back at HQ that day when you saw that, you're like, oh, all right, well, we have to grind even harder to make sure we stay ahead. And so I think it's actually a very useful, motivating thing for the teams. Because you might feel this period of comfort. I think a lot of companies will have this period of comfort where they're not feeling the competition and one day they get disrupted. So kind of putting stuff out there and letting people push it forces you to face reality soon, right? And actually feel that incrementally so you can kind of adjust course. And that's for us, the open source version of Bolt has had a lot of features people have been begging us for, like persisting chat messages and checkpoints and stuff. Within the first week, that stuff was landed in the open source versions. And they're like, why can't you ship this? It's in the open, so people have forked it. And we're like, we're trying to keep our servers and GPUs online. But it's been great because the folks in the community did a great job, kept us on our toes. And we've got to know most of these folks too at this point that have been building these things. And so it actually was very instructive. Like, okay, well, if we're going to go kind of land this, there's some UX patterns we can kind of look at and the code is open source to this stuff. What's great about these, what's not. So anyways, NetNet, I think it's awesome. I think from a competitive point of view for us, I think in particular, what's interesting is the core technology of WebContainer going. And I think that right now, there's really nothing that's kind of on par with that. And we also, we have a business of, because WebContainer runs in your browser, but to make it work, you have to install stuff from NPM. You have to make cores bypass requests, like connected databases, which all require server-side proxying or acceleration. And so we actually sell WebContainer as a service. One of the core reasons we open-sourced kind of the core components of Bolt when we launched was that we think that there's going to be a lot more of these AI, in-your-browser AI co-gen experiences, kind of like what Anthropic did with Artifacts and Clod. By the way, Artifacts uses WebContainers. Not yet. No, yeah. Should I strike that? I think that they've got their own thing at the moment, but there's been a lot of interest in WebContainers from folks doing things in that sort of realm and in the AI labs and startups and everything in between. So I think there'll be, I imagine, over the coming months, there'll be lots of things being announced to folks kind of adopting it. But yeah, I think effectively...Swyx [00:50:35]: Okay, I'll say this. If you're a large model lab and you want to build sandbox environments inside of your chat app, you should call Eric.Itamar [00:50:43]: But wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I have a question about that. I think OpenAI, they felt that people are not using their model as they would want to. So they built ChatGPT. But I would say that ChatGPT now defines OpenAI. I know they're doing a lot of business from their APIs, but still, is this how you think? Isn't Bolt.new your business now? Why don't you focus on that instead of the...Swyx [00:51:16]: What's your advice as a founder?Eric [00:51:18]: You're right. And so going into it, we, candidly, we were like, Bolt.new, this thing is super cool. We think people are stoked. We think people will be stoked. But we were like, maybe that's allowed. Best case scenario, after month one, we'd be mind blown if we added a couple hundred K of error or something. And we were like, but we think there's probably going to be an immediate huge business. Because there was some early poll on folks wanting to put WebContainer into their product offerings, kind of similar to what Bolt is doing or whatever. We were actually prepared for the inverse outcome here. But I mean, well, I guess we've seen poll on both. But I mean, what's happened with Bolt, and you're right, it's actually the same strategy as like OpenAI or Anthropic, where we have our ChatGPT to OpenAI's APIs is Bolt to WebContainer. And so we've kind of taken that same approach. And we're seeing, I guess, some of the similar results, except right now, the revenue side is extremely lopsided to Bolt.Itamar [00:52:16]: I think if you ask me what's my advice, I think you have three options. One is to focus on Bolt. The other is to focus on the WebContainer. The third is to raise one billion dollars and do them both. I'm serious. I think otherwise, you need to choose. And if you raise enough money, and I think it's big bucks, because you're going to be chased by competitors. And I think it will be challenging to do both. And maybe you can. I don't know. We do see these numbers right now, raising above $100 million, even without havingEric [00:52:49]: a product. You can see these. It's excellent advice. And I think what's been amazing, but also kind of challenging is we're trying to forecast, okay, well, where are these things going? I mean, in the initial weeks, I think us and all the investors in the company that we're sharing this with, it was like, this is cool. Okay, we added 500k. Wow, that's crazy. Wow, we're at a million now. Most things, you have this kind of the tech crunch launch of initiation and then the thing of sorrow. And if there's going to be a downtrend, it's just not coming yet. Now that we're kind of looking ahead, we're six weeks in. So now we're getting enough confidence in our convictions to go, okay, this se

Do you really need a framework? Scott and Wes bring on CJ to break down when frameworks like Vue, Svelte, and Astro are worth it—and when they might just add complexity. They dive into everything from rendering strategies to auth solutions, deployment options, and how to choose the right tool for the job. Show Notes 00:00 Welcome to Syntax! 01:32 Brought to you by Sentry.io. 03:17 What is a framework? Syntax Meetup San Francisco. 08:21 Examples of frameworks for Vue, Svelte and Angular. 12:39 What questions do you need to answer? 12:44 What or where do you need to ship? 14:12 How do you render it? 18:22 Where are you deploying it? 24:03 How do you store data? 24:09 Existing API. 26:03 Integrated server. 26:22 Database. Supabase. 26:59 Does it have RPC or server actions? 34:27 Do you need authentication? 38:45 Auth packages. LuciaJS. Lucia announcement. Lucia preview. NPM Arctic Oauth. Auth utilities. Better-Auth. Scott's Drop-In Auth. 42:10 Does it include email? 42:52 What does the TypeScript story look like? 43:32 How does it handle images? 44:35 How do we work with CSS? 46:02 How long has it been around? 47:37 How mature is the ecosystem? 48:35 Is there community support? 50:21 Portability. 51:18 Hiring. 52:17 Sick Pick + Shameless Plugs. Sick Picks CJ: Infinite Health. Scott: USB A to C adapters. Wes: Citric Acid. Shameless Plugs Scott: Syntax on YouTube Hit us up on Socials! Syntax: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Wes: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Scott: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Randy: X Instagram YouTube Threads

Shawn Wang (aka swyx) is the founder of smol.ai (AI news curation), and the cohost of Latent Space (popular AI Engineer podcast). Plus, Shawn started the AI Engineer movement with his essay Rise of the AI Engineer and organized two incredible AI engineer conferences in the past twelve months - AI Engineer World's Fair and AI Engineer SummitAnd Shawn has angel invested in DevTools like Airbyte, Railway, Supabase, Replay.io, Stackblitz, Flutterflow, Fireworks.ai while running the DevTools angels community. Besides this, Shawn curates DX.tips (DevTools magazine) and in a past life wrote the Coding Career handbook, championed learn in public, cofounded Svelte Society and was previously Head of Developer Experience at Temporal, and a Developer Advocate at AWS and Netlify.Also, before this, Shawn had a very successful career in investment banking, trading, building data pipelines and performing quantitate portfolio management. I think this brings him a very unique perspective - I've always admired his ability to zoom out and see the big picture and the trends. Even though Shawn is now all-in on AI, he's still one of the go-to authorities on DevTools go-to-market.As you can tell, Shawn is someone I deeply admire. So I'm glad he came back.What we discuss:Organizing the AI Engineer ConferencesRise of the AI EngineerIntentionality and principles (yes we even talk about Alcoholics Anonymous)The AI CEOInvisible deadlinesIlya believing in AGI more than most people at OpenAIAre developers going to be obsolete? Thor convinced swyx to invest in SupabaseBuilding DevTools that work well with LLMsAngel investing in DevTools - why and howIs DevRel dead?How to hire DevRelWhy DX.tips existsLinks:Rise of the AI Engineer https://www.latent.space/p/ai-engineerLatent Space Podcast https://www.latent.space/swyx's Twitter https://x.com/swyxswyx's website https://www.swyx.io/swyx's LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawnswyxwang/smol.ai https://smol.ai/DevTools Angels https://github.com/sw-yx/devtools-angelsDX.tips https://dx.tips/DevRel's Death as Zero Interest Rate Phenomenon https://dx.tips/zirp AI Engineer Summit https://www.ai.engineer/summit/2023AI Engineer World's Fair https://www.ai.engineer/worldsfairCoding Career Handbook https://www.learninpublic.org/Shawn's previous appearance on Scaling DevTools https://podcast.scalingdevtools.com/episodes/swyx Eisenhower Matrix https://asana.com/resources/eisenhower-matrixThor from Supabase https://x.com/thorwebdevSolaris AI coworking space in SF https://www.solarissf.com/Browserbase https://www.browserbase.com/Indent https://indent.com/ and Fouad https://x.com/fouadmatinHow to do hackathons https://dx.tips/hackathonsHow to do conferences https://dx.tips/conf-guideHow to hire DevRel https://dx.tips/mailbox-first-devrel-hiringClimbing the ladder of abstraction with Amelia Wattenberger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAy_GHUAICwCheck out the Enterprise Ready Conf from WorkOS https://enterprise-ready.com/

https://podcast.scalingdevtools.com/episodes/swyx-2Plus, Shawn started the AI Engineer movement with his essay Rise of the AI Engineer and organized two incredible AI engineer conferences in the past twelve months - AI Engineer World's Fair and AI Engineer SummitAnd Shawn has angel invested in DevTools like Airbyte, Railway, Supabase, Replay.io, Stackblitz, Flutterflow, Fireworks.ai while running the DevTools angels community.Besides this, Shawn curates DX.tips (DevTools magazine) and in a past life wrote the Coding Career handbook, championed learn in public, cofounded Svelte Society and was previously Head of Developer Experience at Temporal, and a Developer Advocate at AWS and Netlify.Also, before this, Shawn had a very successful career in investment banking, trading, building data pipelines and performing quantitate portfolio management. I think this brings him a very unique perspective - I've always admired his ability to zoom out and see the big picture and the trends.Even though Shawn is now all-in on AI, he's still one of the go-to authorities on DevTools go-to-market.As you can tell, Shawn is someone I deeply admire. So I'm glad he came back.What we discuss:Organizing the AI Engineer ConferencesRise of the AI EngineerIntentionality and principles (yes we even talk about Alcoholics Anonymous)The AI CEOInvisible deadlinesIlya believing in AGI more than most people at OpenAIAre developers going to be obsolete? Thor convinced swyx to invest in SupabaseBuilding DevTools that work well with LLMsAngel investing in DevTools - why and howIs DevRel dead?How to hire DevRelWhy DX.tips existsLinks:Rise of the AI Engineer https://www.latent.space/p/ai-engineerLatent Space Podcast https://www.latent.space/swyx's Twitter https://x.com/swyxswyx's website https://www.swyx.io/swyx's LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawnswyxwang/smol.ai https://smol.ai/DevTools Angels https://github.com/sw-yx/devtools-angelsDX.tips https://dx.tips/DevRel's Death as Zero Interest Rate Phenomenon https://dx.tips/zirp AI Engineer Summit https://www.ai.engineer/summit/2023AI Engineer World's Fair https://www.ai.engineer/worldsfairCoding Career Handbook https://www.learninpublic.org/Shawn's previous appearance on Scaling DevTools https://podcast.scalingdevtools.com/episodes/swyx Eisenhower Matrix https://asana.com/resources/eisenhower-matrixThor from Supabase https://x.com/thorwebdevSolaris AI coworking space in SF https://www.solarissf.com/Browserbase https://www.browserbase.com/Indent https://indent.com/ and Fouad https://x.com/fouadmatinHow to do hackathons https://dx.tips/hackathonsHow to do conferences https://dx.tips/conf-guideHow to hire DevRel https://dx.tips/mailbox-first-devrel-hiringClimbing the ladder of abstraction with Amelia Wattenberger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAy_GHUAICw...for the job. And they should not be doing that job and they should try something else to do. People pay for it because they need the job title to be filled more than they need that person. Those good people are very hard to reach.That's one thing there. I also mentioned some other things that I've found in the different roles in the category: Bottoms-up and open source have been very challenging in the growing a company success criteria. That's what different roles focus on: bottoms-up and open source, and particularly open source. You don't have to be open source. 

In this panel episode, our hosts dive into the latest tools and frameworks, AI integration, the performance bottlenecks of server-side rendering, and more. Tune in to hear hot takes and insights from our industry experts. Links https://x.com/trashhdev https://x.com/pniedri https://bsky.app/profile/noel.minc.how https://x.com/emilykochanek We want to hear from you! How did you find us? Did you see us on Twitter? In a newsletter? Or maybe we were recommended by a friend? Let us know by sending an email to our producer, Emily, at emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com (mailto:emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com), or tweet at us at PodRocketPod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod). Follow us. Get free stickers. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, fill out this form (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/get-podrocket-stickers), and we'll send you free PodRocket stickers! What does LogRocket do? LogRocket provides AI-first session replay and analytics that surfaces the UX and technical issues impacting user experiences. Start understand where your users are struggling by trying it for free at [LogRocket.com]. Try LogRocket for free today.(https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr)

This is our 100th episode! And we're thrilled to welcome back fan favourite Ant Wilson - the cofounder and CTO of Supabase.They discuss the evolution of Supabase, the importance of open source, and effective marketing strategies. Ant shares insights on community engagement, the significance of developer-centric branding, and the challenges of navigating the enterprise landscape. We also touch on the rise of AI and vector databases, emphasizing the power of open source in development. The conversation concludes with reflections on the journey and future aspirations.Thank you to everyone who made it our 100th episode!TakeawaysOpen source can significantly enhance hiring opportunities.Building a strong brand requires understanding your audience.Open source provides a competitive edge against incumbents.The importance of stability and security for enterprise clients.Time in the market builds trust with potential customers.LinksSupabase https://supabase.com/Ant Wilson's Twitter https://x.com/antwilsonpgvector https://supabase.com/docs/guides/database/extensions/pgvector  Greg Richardson https://x.com/ggrdsonPrevious episode with Ant https://podcast.scalingdevtools.com/episodes/product-market-fit-is-one-pivot-away-with-ant-wilson-founder-of-supabaseKeywordsopen source, developer tools, marketing strategies, community engagement, AI, vector databases, enterprise solutions, product development, tech podcast

Robby (Amanda Robson) is the co-host of Open Source Startup Podcast (with Tim Chen).In this episode we discuss:There are many ways to open source successWhen open source is a good strategy and when it isn'tWhy open source projects usually need time to brewHow to know if your project is venture scaleWhy Robby believes in the Open Source modelRobby is working on a highly mysterious new thing

David Cahn is a Partner @ Sequoia Capital, one of the great venture firms of the last 5 decades. Before joining the Sequoia partnership, David led Coatue's venture business as a General Partner and COO where he led investments in Hugging Face, Runway and Supabase. David also joined the boards of Weights & Biases and Replit. In Today's Episode with David Cahn We Discuss: 1. AI's $600BN Question: What is the $600BN question in AI today? Is it possible to believe "AI will change the world" and "Capex levels are too high" at the same time? Why do the cloud players have to act now? When does the Capex reduce for them? How does Meta not having a core cash cow in cloud change the way they can respond? Why is all the risk today being borne by the large incumbents? Why is that good for startups? How will we see Satya and Zuckerberg change their narrative towards their Capex spend to the public markets? 2. The Data Centre is the Most Important Asset: Why does David believe that data centre is the most important asset? What does he mean when he says "servers, steel and power" are the pillars of AI? What happens when the development of models outpaces the construction of data centres? Why does David believe no one will ever train a frontier model on the same data centre twice? 3. The Biggest Opportunities in AI: Why does David believe the biggest opportunity right now is in the build-out of data centres? What does the supply chain look like for the build-out of data centres? Who are the winners? Why does David believe the biggest opportunity in finance is in creating new debt instruments that will allow the largest incumbents in the world to move this data centre spend off balance sheet? Why does David believe that AI will drive more energy innovation than any policy has done? 4. The Secrets of Sequoia: Inside the Walls of the Greatest Firm in Venture: What does David and Sequoia believe is the one definition of success in venture? Who is the best at find companies in Sequoia? Who is the best at picking? Why does David believe conviction, not picking is the hardest part in venture? How do Sequoia want to shape and mould every investor in the firm? 20VC: Sequoia's David Cahn on AI's $600BN Question | Why the Data Centre is the Most Important Asset | Servers, Steel and Power: The Core Pillars Powering the Future of AI

Kate Holterhoff - an analyst from RedMonk - shares why frontend developers are increasingly dictating the adoption of new developer tools.Kate shares specific examples, including Supabase. Links:Frontend Developers: the Newest New Kingmakers https://redmonk.com/kholterhoff/2024/02/15/frontend-developers-the-newest-new-kingmakers/Kate's website https://www.kateholterhoff.com/RedMonk https://redmonk.com/Kate's Twitter/X https://x.com/KateHolterhoff

Paul Copplestone is the co-founder and CEO at Supabase, the “open source Firebase alternative for building web and mobile apps.” If you were wondering what that means or why you should prioritise a listen— in Paul's words: “if you're going to build your next startup, you'd probably choose us … and we'll provide all the tools you need to get started: a Postgres database, authentication system, file storage… the works.”Today, Supabase is prolific. One of the most commonly called out products by makers on Product Hunt; one of the most redeemed Y Combinator “perks” with nearly a third of the most recent YC batch using it; they've secured a place as back-end infrastructure of choice for many founders setting out to build AI-centric applications.Paul has come a long way from his family farm near Kaikoura. Before Supabase, he co-founded South East Asian-based home-services startups ServisHero and Nimbus For Work, and participated in Entrepreneur First, Singapore. Today, he & co-founder Ant have raised $116M and lead a globally distributed company with 80 employees over 30+ countries. With their ambition and vision, it's clear they're just getting started.In today's episode, we discuss:* Paul's journey from NZ to Malaysia and now Singapore.* Building and scaling Supabase as a globally distributed team.* The impact of AI on software development, and what to use if you're getting started today.* Underrated benefits of open source for recruiting, growth, and how to think about product development.Links:Supabase:* Supabase website: https://supabase.com/* Supabase on Twitter/X (great follow) https://x.com/supabase* $80M Series B announcement: https://techcrunch.com/2022/05/10/supabase-raises-80m-series-b-for-its-open-source-firebase-alternative/Paul:* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulcopplestone/* Twitter/X: https://x.com/kiwicopple* Blog: https://paul.copplest.one/blog/ (so much good stuff in here)* GitHub: https://github.com/kiwicoppleTimestamps:(00:00) Intro(01:18) Paul's origin story(04:05) Founding ServisHero in Malaysia(06:23) Joining the Entrepreneur First program(08:58) Why founders should think about setting up their HQ in Singapore(09:57) Founding Supabase(11:36) The benefits of open source(13:43) Insight into Supabase customers and how AI is changing the game(15:33) How open source helps with recruiting(18:18) Taking a “product led growth” approach to enterprise customers.(21:12) When/how Supabase will “cross the chasm” as it matures into a enterprise customer base.(22:19) How AI is changing devtools(24:09) Paul's angel investing thesis(26:33) Thinking about companies like countries(28:59) Paul's favourite blog posts from his personal archive(31:06) How we can be helpful to Paul!Subscribe at diaspora.nz to receive new episodes every Friday! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.diaspora.nz

Paul Copplestone, CEO of Supabase (the meme-lord himself), joins the show to take us on the journey of Supabase leading Postgres for life, and how it all starts with Postgres as the base-layer substrate for the entire Supabase platform. They're laser focused on the drive ahead, not the rear-view mirror. Disclosure: Adam and Jerod are angel investors in Supabase.

Paul Copplestone, CEO of Supabase (the meme-lord himself), joins the show to take us on the journey of Supabase leading Postgres for life, and how it all starts with Postgres as the base-layer substrate for the entire Supabase platform. They're laser focused on the drive ahead, not the rear-view mirror. Disclosure: Adam and Jerod are angel investors in Supabase.

https://codingcat.dev/podcast/supabase-next-js-and-builder-io --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/codingcatdev/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/codingcatdev/support

Scott and CJ chat with Paul Copplestone, CEO and co-founder of Supabase, about the journey of building an open source alternative to Firebase. Learn about the tech stack, the story behind their excellent documentation, and how Supabase balances business goals with open-source values. Show Notes 00:00 Welcome to Syntax! 00:30 Who is Paul Copplestone? 01:17 Why ‘Supa' and not ‘Super'? 02:26 How did Supabase start? 04:29 How long from inception to joining Y Combinator? 05:10 Was it always intended to be open source? Why Open Source. 07:22 How many users chose to self-host? 07:49 Open source mindset. 08:42 Simplicity in design. 10:32 How do you take Supabase one step beyond the competition? 12:35 How do you decide which libraries are officially supported vs community maintained? 15:17 You don't need a client library! 16:48 Edge functions for server-side functionality. 18:51 The genesis of pgvector. 20:59 The product strategy. 22:25 What's the story behind Supabase's awesome docs? 25:26 The tech behind Supabase. 25:39 What is the UI built on? 27:33 Consolidation follows kaizen. 28:54 What else is involved in the stack? 31:47 Authentication. 32:35 Storage engine. 33:13 For self-hosting. 35:46 How do you balance business goals with open source? 42:01 What's next for Supabase? 44:15 Supabase's GA + new features. Top 10 LAunches from Supabase GA Week. 48:24 Who runs the X account? 50:39 Sick Picks + Shameless Plugs. Sick Picks Paul: Apple Vision Pro. Shameless Plugs Paul: PostgreSQL. Hit us up on Socials! Syntax: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Wes: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Scott: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads CJ: X Instagram YouTube TwitchTV Randy: X Instagram YouTube Threads

En este episodio quiero que hablemos sobre Supabase, y explicar un pequeño ejercicio que involucra magic links (autenticación mediante enlace al correo electrónico), actualización de perfil y carga de archivo --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/fernando-her85/support

В этом выпуске: про хакатоны, работу в Ozon, разработку под Android и графический дизайн. Шоуноты: [00:03:31] Интерью с гостями [00:43:21] Neon GA Neon: A New Approach to Database Development — Neon Дорога к контрол-плейну — Episode 0376 « DevZen Podcast Токийский краб — Episode 0379 « DevZen Podcast [00:44:11] Supabase [01:29:05] #темы464 [01:34:09] Ретрогеймзен  … Читать далее →

Follow along as Cesar shares his experience on migrating an old MySQL database to Supabase, with Rick by his side asking questions and offering insights. While they both praise Supabase for its capabilities, they diverge in their opinions on the clarity and helpfulness of the documentation.

Nikolay and Michael have a high-level discussion on all things search — touching on full-text search, semantic search, and faceted search. They discuss what comes in Postgres core, what is possible via extensions, and some thoughts on performance vs implementation complexity vs user experience. Here are some links to things they mentioned:Simon Riggs https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7178702287740022784/Companion databases episode https://postgres.fm/episodes/companion-databasespgvector episode https://postgres.fm/episodes/pgvectorFull Text Search https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/textsearch.htmlSemantic search https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_searchFaceted search https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faceted_searchFaceting large result sets in PostgreSQL https://www.cybertec-postgresql.com/en/faceting-large-result-sets/RUM index https://github.com/postgrespro/rum Hybrid search (Supabase guide) https://supabase.com/docs/guides/ai/hybrid-search Elastic https://www.elastic.co/ GiST indexes https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/gist.html GIN indexes https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/gin.html btree_gist https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/btree-gist.html btree_gin https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/btree-gin.html pg_trgrm https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/pgtrgm.html Text Search Types (tsvector and tsquery) https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/datatype-textsearch.html Postgres full text search with the “websearch” syntax (blog post by Adam Johnson) https://adamj.eu/tech/2024/01/03/postgresql-full-text-search-websearch/Understanding Postgres GIN Indexes: The Good and the Bad (blog post by Lukas Fittl) https://pganalyze.com/blog/gin-index ParadeDB https://www.paradedb.com/ ZomboDB https://www.zombodb.com/ Introduction to Information Retrieval (book by Manning, Raghavan, and Schütze) https://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-Information-Retrieval-Christopher-Manning/dp/0521865719 How to build a search engine with Ruby on Rails (blog post by Justin Searls) https://blog.testdouble.com/posts/2021-09-09-how-to-build-a-search-engine-with-ruby-on-rails/~~~What did you like or not like? What should we discuss next time? Let us know via a YouTube comment, on social media, or by commenting on our Google doc!~~~Postgres FM is brought to you by:Nikolay Samokhvalov, founder of Postgres.aiMichael Christofides, founder of pgMustardWith special thanks to:Jessie Draws for the amazing artwork 

Lots has happened this week! New alpha preview of Tailwind V4, more very unexpected layoffs of great people, Jason Lengstorf kicked off the "Do It Anyways" movements, and Astro launched a database! Website: https://navbar.tech Pro Tailwind: https://www.protailwind.com/ Build a Twitter Clone with the Next.js App Router and Supabase (free egghead course): https://egghead.io/courses/build-a-twitter-clone-with-the-next-js-app-router-and-supabase-19bebadb Want more NavBar?

Shay Davidson is a full-stack web, mobile, and game developer. He is currently leading the front end at Lemonade. The discussion revolves around the use of Supabase as a free database and its comparisons to Firebase for developer experience. They dive into building applications with Next.js and React 18, utilizing React Server Components to interact with the Supabase API. They share their experiences, frustrations, and insights regarding caching mechanisms, server actions, and the challenges of adapting to new technologies in the React ecosystem. The episode also delves into the React server components controversy, the importance of learning and experimenting with new technologies, the use of AI for creative purposes, and the potential dangers of deep fakes.SponsorsChuck's Resume TemplateDeveloper Book ClubBecome a Top 1% Dev with a Top End Devs MembershipSocialsLinkedIn: Shay DavidsonPicksAJ - Dune: Part Two (2024)Dan - Arnold Schwarzenegger Sings About Rainbows (AI)Dan - Finance worker pays out $25 million after video call with deepfake CFOShai - Rendezvous with RamaSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/javascript-jabber/donationsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Simon and Jon have been busy! Check out this episode to learn about their adventures with long hair, using Kent C Dodds' gamified LMS to run a Pixel Perfect workshop and how you can suggest topics on the new Navbar website Website: https://navbar.tech Pro Tailwind: https://www.protailwind.com/ Build a Twitter Clone with the Next.js App Router and Supabase (free egghead course): https://egghead.io/courses/build-a-twitter-clone-with-the-next-js-app-router-and-supabase-19bebadb Want more NavBar?

It took 14 months but Jon and Simon are talking again! Check out this episode to hear all about the future of the Navbar podcast. Pro Tailwind: https://www.protailwind.com/ Build a Twitter Clone with the Next.js App Router and Supabase (free egghead course): https://egghead.io/courses/build-a-twitter-clone-with-the-next-js-app-router-and-supabase-19bebadb Want more NavBar?

Creating content is awesome but keeping up with that consistent schedule and watching metrics that very clearly tell you whether you are doing well or not is not always the healthiest for the brain. In this episode, Simon and Jon discuss their own personal burnout stories and try to set themselves more realistic goals for the future. Pro Tailwind: https://www.protailwind.com/ Build a Twitter Clone with the Next.js App Router and Supabase (free egghead course): https://egghead.io/courses/build-a-twitter-clone-with-the-next-js-app-router-and-supabase-19bebadb Want more NavBar?

Screencasting setups can make things incredibly complex and fragile. In this episode, Simon takes us through some of his recent hiccups that caused him to lose huge recording sessions. Pro Tailwind: https://www.protailwind.com/ Build a Twitter Clone with the Next.js App Router and Supabase (free egghead course): https://egghead.io/courses/build-a-twitter-clone-with-the-next-js-app-router-and-supabase-19bebadb Want more NavBar?

Next.js is a tool to build websites, fast! In this episode Jon takes Simon through why Next.js is so awesome and powerful! Next.js: https://nextjs.org Pro Tailwind: https://www.protailwind.com/ Build a Twitter Clone with the Next.js App Router and Supabase (free egghead course): https://egghead.io/courses/build-a-twitter-clone-with-the-next-js-app-router-and-supabase-19bebadb Want more NavBar?

Wrapping up the functionality of their Next.js application, Brian and Aurooba look at CRUD operations: how to create, read, update, and delete (ok, maybe not delete) data by using Supabase as a database. They talk about structuring your database, when to update state while saving data, dynamic pages in Next.js and more.A full transcript of the episode is available on the website. Watch the video podcast on YouTube and subscribe to our channel and newsletter to hear about episodes (and more) first!Supabase - https://supabase.com/Next.js - https://nextjs.org/WP Audit - https://wpaudit.site/Brian's website – https://www.briancoords.comAurooba's website – https://aurooba.com (00:00) - S02E10 - Nextjs 4 (00:10) - Intro - What is CRUD (04:52) - Supabase (08:47) - Frontend Preview (10:22) - Our Bug and Async Data Effects (14:46) - Architecting Databases and Structure (23:00) - File structure and dynamic routes (24:59) - Client and Server Components for Supabase (30:04) - When to visually show data (34:40) - Planning vs Building First (36:21) - Queries in Components (40:39) - Planning for Database Migrations (42:55) - Next Episode Preview

Adam's brain gets thrown off course, software rot vs serverless life, subscription payments vs one time payment myths, framework devs vs app devs, Adam figures out what Supabase is, Dax reviews an Apple Vision Pro and has thoughts, all while we're headed towards an AI utopia.Want to carry on the conversation? Join us in Discord.TailwindOncePlexGitHub - benvinegar/counterscale: Scalable web analytics you run yourself on CloudflareAstroBulk Cloud Email Service - Amazon Simple Email Service - AWSConnect, Protect and Build Everywhere | CloudflareVercel: Build and deploy the best Web experiences with The Frontend Cloud – VercelSupabase | The Open Source Firebase AlternativeFirebase | Google's Mobile and Web App Development PlatformFabrice BellardJonny KimThe Free Software Media System | JellyfinZuckerberg says Quest 3 is ‘the better product' vs. Apple's Vision Pro - The VergeMr. Robot‎Gemini - chat to supercharge your ideasReact Miami(00:00) - Chris will definitely cut this out (00:40) - Getting thrown off your week by issues (03:39) - Software rot vs serverless life (07:59) - Subscriptions vs boxed version (16:49) - Framework devs vs app devs (23:27) - Why can't cloud providers bake in dollar limits? (27:27) - Marker 7 (33:42) - What do you do if you're getting ddos'd? (38:40) - Cloudflare's origin story (39:49) - What's Supabase? What's Firebase? (42:42) - Reengineering Plex (44:48) - Take a visit to Fabrice Bellard's Wikipedia (50:43) - Dax's review of Apple Vision Pro (01:08:41) - Heading towards an AI utopia (01:19:35) - Adam's weight is not a static number and is always fluctuating

Continuing the series on Next.js, Aurooba and Brian take a look at a Next.js version of https://wpaudit.site complete with a login set up and ability to save your own checklist.A full transcript of the episode is available on the website. Watch the video podcast on YouTube and subscribe to our channel and newsletter to hear about episodes (and more) first!- Next.js 14 App Router - https://nextjs.org/docs/app- Brian's website – https://www.briancoords.com- Aurooba's website – https://aurooba.com (00:00) - Introduction (00:18) - Next.js' relationship with React (04:25) - Really exploring Next.js (07:34) - The Next.js clone of WPAudit.site (09:08) - Styling the login page to match (12:30) - Creating Pages in Next.js (13:14) - Generating opengraph images in Next.js (14:47) - Folder based page routes (16:51) - Next.js 14 Server components (18:41) - Caching in Next.js (19:29) - Loading Experiences in React (21:20) - Using Middleware in Next.js (23:15) - Fetching data in Next.js 14 (24:51) - Server Actions in Next.js 14 (27:55) - Using Vanilla-Extract for styling (35:01) - Why use CSS-in-JS? (36:18) - How CoPilot helps you do grunt dev work (39:37) - Saving the Checklist for each user (41:16) - Looking at the Audit table in Supabase (42:14) - Balancing current project needs with future needs (43:53) - Conclusion

What is Supabase? Why joining a hackathon? What's vector search and RAG? This a lot more fun this week from Rick's experience back in December.

As we close another year packed with developments in the Elixir ecosystem, we're rolling out the red carpet for a "Year End Review" episode! Before we do that, we cover the most recent news events like the release of Supabase's Supavisor, a connection pooler, crafted with a helping hand from Dashbit. We shed light on the partnership between Supabase and Fly.io introducing a managed Postgres option. Then, for front-end enthusiasts, we discuss the released beta of LiveView Native and more! And, if that's not enough, we've got loads to unwrap from highlights of the past year's achievements! Show Notes online - http://podcast.thinkingelixir.com/182 (http://podcast.thinkingelixir.com/182) Elixir Community News - https://elixirforum.com/t/elixir-v1-16-0-rc-1-released/60310 (https://elixirforum.com/t/elixir-v1-16-0-rc-1-released/60310?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Elixir 1.16.0-RC.1 announced, featuring minor improvements and better error reporting. - https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/commit/8e9cbfcd8c219f9d3558158f1ebee5ec4fadd762 (https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/commit/8e9cbfcd8c219f9d3558158f1ebee5ec4fadd762?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Optimization of the Enum.random function in the Elixir programming language. - https://twitter.com/planeterlang/status/1734882621577183524?t=Xn6DY9Qzc5nGLdqEskRjvQ (https://twitter.com/planeterlang/status/1734882621577183524?t=Xn6DY9Qzc5nGLdqEskRjvQ?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Announcement of Erlang/OTP 26.2 Release, a maintenance patch with bug fixes and improvements. - https://www.erlang.org/news/166 (https://www.erlang.org/news/166?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Erlang/OTP 26.2 release news with details on improvements. - https://erlang.org/download/OTP-26.2.README (https://erlang.org/download/OTP-26.2.README?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – README document for Erlang/OTP 26.2, including the highlight on process_info/2 support for looking up specific keys in the process dictionary. - https://twitter.com/kiwicopple/status/1734903746704945425?t=Xn6DY9Qzc5nGLdqEskRjvQ (https://twitter.com/kiwicopple/status/1734903746704945425?t=Xn6DY9Qzc5nGLdqEskRjvQ?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Supabase announces Supavisor 1.0 as part of their launch week. - https://supabase.com/blog/supavisor-postgres-connection-pooler (https://supabase.com/blog/supavisor-postgres-connection-pooler?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Blog post detailing the Supavisor Postgres connection pooler released by Supabase. - https://github.com/supabase/supavisor (https://github.com/supabase/supavisor?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – GitHub repository for Supavisor, the Postgres connection pooler by Supabase. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogYNmJOFEpk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogYNmJOFEpk?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – José Valim created an intro video for Supavisor included in the announcement blog post, hinting at Dashbit's involvement. - https://supabase.com/blog/postgres-on-fly-by-supabase (https://supabase.com/blog/postgres-on-fly-by-supabase?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Supabase partnership with Fly.io to manage Fly Postgres databases. - https://twitter.com/kiwicopple/status/1735628135750602769?t=ZvCKMAXrZFtDX8pfjW14Lw (https://twitter.com/kiwicopple/status/1735628135750602769?t=ZvCKMAXrZFtDX8pfjW14Lw?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Twitter update on the Supabase and Fly.io partnership offering managed Postgres databases. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyjwFP2QgeI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyjwFP2QgeI?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – YouTube video featuring LiveView Native 0.2.0-beta.1 Getting Started guide. - https://twitter.com/bcardarella/status/1736164327931924483?t=ZvCKMAXrZFtDX8pfjW14Lw (https://twitter.com/bcardarella/status/1736164327931924483?t=ZvCKMAXrZFtDX8pfjW14Lw?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Announcement of LiveView Native v0.2.0-beta.2 release with bug fixes and performance improvements for client navigation. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewf-18jacmo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewf-18jacmo?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Theo, a YouTube personality, gives his take on the FLAME idea, expressing concerns and impressions on Chris McCord's article and library. Do you have some Elixir news to share? Tell us at @ThinkingElixir (https://twitter.com/ThinkingElixir) or email at show@thinkingelixir.com (mailto:show@thinkingelixir.com) Find us online - Message the show - @ThinkingElixir (https://twitter.com/ThinkingElixir) - Message the show on Fediverse - @ThinkingElixir@genserver.social (https://genserver.social/ThinkingElixir) - Email the show - show@thinkingelixir.com (mailto:show@thinkingelixir.com) - Mark Ericksen - @brainlid (https://twitter.com/brainlid) - Mark Ericksen on Fediverse - @brainlid@genserver.social (https://genserver.social/brainlid) - David Bernheisel - @bernheisel (https://twitter.com/bernheisel) - David Bernheisel on Fediverse - @dbern@genserver.social (https://genserver.social/dbern) - Cade Ward - @cadebward (https://twitter.com/cadebward) - Cade Ward on Fediverse - @cadebward@genserver.social (https://genserver.social/cadebward)

Jon Meyers, Developer Advocate at Supabase, returns to talk about Supabase's most recent launch week, discussing the new AI-powered RLS Editor, Edge Functions, Auth Hooks, and more! Links https://twitter.com/jonmeyers_io https://jonmeyers.io/ https://github.com/dijonmusters https://egghead.io/q/resources-by-jon-meyers https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPitAIwktfCfcMR4kDWebDQ https://supabase.com/blog https://supabase.com/blog/supabase-integrations-marketplace https://egghead.io/q/resources-by-jon-meyers We want to hear from you! How did you find us? Did you see us on Twitter? In a newsletter? Or maybe we were recommended by a friend? Let us know by sending an email to our producer, Emily, at emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com (mailto:emily.kochanekketner@logrocket.com), or tweet at us at PodRocketPod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod). Follow us. Get free stickers. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, fill out this form (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/get-podrocket-stickers), and we'll send you free PodRocket stickers! What does LogRocket do? LogRocket combines frontend monitoring, product analytics, and session replay to help software teams deliver the ideal product experience. Try LogRocket for free today. (https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) Special Guest: Jon Meyers.

Supabase is an open source backend-as-a-service platform and competes directly with Google's Firebase. A key distinction between them is that Firebase is a document store, while Supabase uses Postgres, which is a SQL-based database management system. Software Engineering Daily last covered Supabase in 2020 when its Founder Paul Copplestone came on the show, and a The post Supabase Security with Inian Parameshwaran appeared first on Software Engineering Daily.

News teases an intriguing update from Chris McCord hinting at a groundbreaking feature in Phoenix and Elixir's capabilities. José Valim proposes local accumulators in Elixir, stirring discussions on the future of coding elegance. Supabase launches the innovative "libcluster_postgres" library, promising to enhance Elixir node discovery with Postgres. And for those seeking to crunch numbers differently, a must-read blog post lays out a roadmap for translating code in NumPy to Nx. Plus, Elixir enthusiasts are buzzing about this year's Advent of Code challenges—find out how the community tackles these puzzles with bespoke tooling and shared Livebooks strategies, and more! Show Notes online - http://podcast.thinkingelixir.com/180 (http://podcast.thinkingelixir.com/180) Elixir Community News - https://twitter.com/chris_mccord/status/1731668893213544900 (https://twitter.com/chris_mccord/status/1731668893213544900?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Teaser by Chris McCord hinting a new development in Phoenix and LiveView as a potent alternative to something. - https://elixirforum.com/t/local-accumulators-for-cleaner-comprehensions/60130 (https://elixirforum.com/t/local-accumulators-for-cleaner-comprehensions/60130?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – José Valim's proposal on ElixirForum for adding local accumulators to cleaner list comprehensions in Elixir. - https://elixirforum.com/t/introducing-for-let-and-for-reduce/44773 (https://elixirforum.com/t/introducing-for-let-and-for-reduce/44773?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – A discussion from two years ago on ElixirForum about a different variation of local accumulators proposal for Elixir. - https://twitter.com/kiwicopple/status/1730242820441588147 (https://twitter.com/kiwicopple/status/1730242820441588147?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Announcement of a newly released Elixir library called "libclusterpostgres" by Paul Copplestone from Supabase. - https://github.com/supabase/libcluster_postgres (https://github.com/supabase/libcluster_postgres?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – GitHub repository for the "libclusterpostgres" library, used by Supabase for Elixir node discovery using a Postgres strategy. - https://www.thestackcanary.com/numpy-to-nx/ (https://www.thestackcanary.com/numpy-to-nx/?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – A blog post that guides through translating NumPy code to Nx by providing side-by-side examples. - https://adventofcode.com/ (https://adventofcode.com/?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Link to the official Advent of Code website which is a popular coding challenge during the Christmas season. - https://github.com/mhanberg/advent-of-code-elixir-starter (https://github.com/mhanberg/advent-of-code-elixir-starter?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Mitch Hanberg's Advent of Code Starter Kit repository, which provides a template project for solving the Advent of Code challenges in Elixir. - https://notes.club (https://notes.club?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – A platform that hosts a frontend of Livebooks on GitHub, organized by author, likes, and tags, useful for exploring how people are solving Advent of Code problems in Elixir. - https://github.com/ljgago/kino_aoc (https://github.com/ljgago/kino_aoc?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – A GitHub repository for a Livebook Smart Cell which aids in solving Advent of Code directly from Livebook. - https://github.com/nettinho/smaoc (https://github.com/nettinho/smaoc?utm_source=thinkingelixir&utm_medium=shownotes) – Another Livebook Smart Cell repository on GitHub for Advent of Code that facilitates problem interaction within Livebook. Do you have some Elixir news to share? Tell us at @ThinkingElixir (https://twitter.com/ThinkingElixir) or email at show@thinkingelixir.com (mailto:show@thinkingelixir.com) Find us online - Message the show - @ThinkingElixir (https://twitter.com/ThinkingElixir) - Message the show on Fediverse - @ThinkingElixir@genserver.social (https://genserver.social/ThinkingElixir) - Email the show - show@thinkingelixir.com (mailto:show@thinkingelixir.com) - Mark Ericksen - @brainlid (https://twitter.com/brainlid) - Mark Ericksen on Fediverse - @brainlid@genserver.social (https://genserver.social/brainlid) - David Bernheisel - @bernheisel (https://twitter.com/bernheisel) - David Bernheisel on Fediverse - @dbern@genserver.social (https://genserver.social/dbern) - Cade Ward - @cadebward (https://twitter.com/cadebward) - Cade Ward on Fediverse - @cadebward@genserver.social (https://genserver.social/cadebward)

Josh Goldberg and Anthony Campolo return to talk about the latest news in web dev, including Google's announcement about IDX, Supabase's Launch Week 8, what's up with Jamstack, and more. Links https://idx.dev https://twitter.com/davideast/status/1689735117118316544 https://bytes.dev/archives/212?cksubscriber_id=1652256478 https://twitter.com/JoshuaKGoldberg https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuakgoldbergcodes https://www.joshuakgoldberg.com https://github.com/JoshuaKGoldberg https://twitter.com/ajcwebdev https://ajcwebdev.com https://github.com/ajcwebdev https://www.twitch.tv/ajcwebdev Tell us what you think of PodRocket We want to hear from you! We want to know what you love and hate about the podcast. What do you want to hear more about? Who do you want to see on the show? Our producers want to know, and if you talk with us, we'll send you a $25 gift card! If you're interested, schedule a call with us (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us) or you can email producer Kate Trahan at kate@logrocket.com (mailto:kate@logrocket.com) Follow us. Get free stickers. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, fill out this form (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/get-podrocket-stickers), and we'll send you free PodRocket stickers! What does LogRocket do? LogRocket combines frontend monitoring, product analytics, and session replay to help software teams deliver the ideal product experience. Try LogRocket for free today. (https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) Special Guests: Anthony Campolo and Josh Goldberg.

Our friends at Supabase quietly went public today, Redpoint's InfraRed 100 report is out, Twitter is now X, GitHub's Copilot Chat now in public preview (for businesses) & Oxide has homelab plans (in 2050).