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September 11, 2001, changed Bob Ellis's life, just as it changed mine. Bob was working at the Pentagon that morning and had walked out of the building only minutes before Flight 77 struck the area where his meeting had taken place. You will hear how he immediately became part of the response, helping organize emergency supplies and support for those working at the Pentagon. We also compare our experiences from two different locations that day, Bob at the Pentagon and me at the World Trade Center with my guide dog Roselle. Twenty-five years later, our conversation is about more than remembering 9/11. It is about leadership, teamwork, service, controlling fear, and deciding what we do with the life we have been given. I believe Bob's story offers lessons we can all use when the unexpected happens. Highlights: 05:29-Bob shares how his early life and military support career shaped his path. 23:53-He recalls realizing the first World Trade Center strike was not an accident. 32:59-Bob describes being just 300 yards away when the Pentagon was hit. 37:00-He explains how he helped organize emergency relief supplies within hours. 1:03:54-Michael reflects on survival, fear, and the responsibility to move forward. 1:06:55-Bob shares the lasting life lessons he took from September 11. About the Guest: Bob Ellis is the Vice President, American Logistics Association responsible for Exchange, MWR, Food Service Operations. The native of Fort Walton Beach, Florida began his career with AAFES in 1972. From 1972 through 1984, he held retail management positions as a Branch Manager, and Operations Manager Main Store. In 1985, Ellis began a string of assignments as an Exchange General Manager trainee at Fort Belvoir, VA, and Exchange General Manager, Fort Hamilton, NY and Carlisle Barrack PA, (Army War College). Assignments as Area Retail Manager and General Manager at the former Japan Area Exchange ran from 1989-1992. In 1992, Ellis was transferred to Travis AFB in California as Retail Manager, Main Store. In 1994, Ellis was selected for the General Manager's position at Travis and spent three years assisting in the design and new construction effort of the largest retail Main Store ever constructed by AAFES. From 1997 to 2002, Ellis held the position of Director of AAFES' Washington Office, serving as the principal representative of the Commander, AAFES to the Office of the Secretary of Defense, the Departments of the Army and the Air Force, Congressional offices and industry representatives. Notable among his accomplishments, Ellis was instrumental in spearheading AAFES support to the Pentagon after the attacks of September 11th. Within 48 hours of the event, AAFES established a mobile exchange in the shadow of the impact site to support rescue workers and investigators with critical need and personal comfort items. After Washington, Ellis moved to AAFES Headquarters' in Dallas to assume the Vice President Specialty and Consumables position. In this role, Ellis was responsible for the SD-C Category Team Managers/Buyers. In August 2003, Ellis took his a position as Vice President of Corporate Planning and Communications where he managed the development of AAFES long range and contingency planning programs, oversight of corporate public affairs and ensured compliance with Department of Defense policy guidance with the goal of preserving and protecting the exchange benefit for soldiers and airmen and their families around the globe. Bob joined the ALA on 31 July 2006 where he continues to serve a role in military resale supporting Exchange, MWR, and Food Service, operations still serving military resale over 51 years continuous service. Ways to connect with Bob**:** You can find more benefits how Branded Riches can help you build your Brand, Product, Business, and Yourself at https://www.BrandedRiches.com   Connect:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/neryk-davydov Branded Riches Audiobook by Neryk Davydov https://www.audible.com/pd/Branded-Riches-Audiobook/B0GCP9MMRB Branded Riches Book https://www.amazon.com/Branded-Riches-Increase-Income-Irresistible/dp/1987753836 $5 Free Gift for Creating A New Ovato Wallet    www.ovatoCoin.com  About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Everyone, I am Michael Hingson, the host of Unstoppable Mindset. You've heard my voice for the last 471 episodes, but I'm calling you all out today and asking you to listen to this because we're going to make a special announcement now regarding the next four episodes, starting with 472. We're going to help commemorate the historic events of September 11, 2001. Yes, they're definitely historic, although not necessarily the most positive things that have ever happened. But as many of you may know, I was in the World Trade Center working on September 11, 2001, on the 78th floor of Tower One, and escaped with my guide dog. I've delivered a speech about that, which we put in the first episode of this podcast series back in August of 2021. But this Friday, episode 472 is going to have an updated speech that I delivered just a few years ago at the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival. That festival is a yearly event celebrating different kinds of things that have happened in American history, and I was invited to come and speak, which I did. I'm going to put that speech up for you as episode 472. I think you'll find it enlightening. It'll teach you something about blindness and blind people. It'll tell you my story, and it'll give you some inspiration that I hope you will find helpful. Next Tuesday, september 8, Michelle Abraham is going to interview me. Michelle is with Amplify You, the company that does all of our back office stuff and helps me with the editing and other things regarding the podcast. Michelle owns her own podcast, and she is going to interview me about September 11th and other kinds of things relating to what I've learned and things that have happened over the past 25 years. She's also going to be putting this up on her podcast Amplify You, so you can find us in a lot of different places. On September 11th, I'm going to chat with Bob Ellis. Bob was in the Pentagon on September 11, 2001, and had literally just walked out the door of the Pentagon when the plane crashed into the Pentagon and did the things and the damage that it did, and of course generated all the things that occurred at the Pentagon. On the 15th of September, I'm going to come back and have a conversation with all of you about lessons that I've learned over the past 25 years, and just reminisce a little bit about all of that. While the podcast is occurring on September 11th, I will be actually in Kilgore, Texas, doing a speech about September 11th. So lots of things going on, I hope you listen to these episodes. I hope that you'll tell everyone that you can about them. I really enjoy all of the support that you've given us over the years, and we're going to continue to do things with Unstoppable Mindset. And of course, as always, if you'd like to come on or know anyone who would, please let us know. We're always looking for guests. Thanks very much. We'll see you on Friday with the first of these four episodes. What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingston, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. You are listening to us today, or at least I'm assuming you're listening just when this came out. But whenever you're listening, it is today, September 11th, 2026, which is needless to say, a special day. If you have kept up with my podcast from the beginning, you know that I worked in the World Trade Center on September 11th, and ever since then I've been a public speaker, traveling the world, talking about trust, teamwork, leadership, the human-animal bond, and a variety of things. But recently, I met Bob Ellis. Michael Hingson  04:40 Now, Bob, as it turns out, on September 11th worked at the Pentagon, and I have not ever really had the opportunity to talk with someone who was at the Pentagon, especially on September 11th. But we get to chat about that today, and Bob knows our rules, which are basically. He sent me a series of questions that he wants to cover, but we are doing this as a conversation, so we'll probably talk about a lot of the things that he specifically sent. But we can go any old way that Bob wants to go, so that's what we'll we'll make this really fun. And I'm really looking forward to having the opportunity to talk with Bob. So again, welcome to September 11th, and Bob, I want to welcome you to Unstoppable Mindset. We're really glad you're here, Bob Ellis  05:28 Michael. Thank you for inviting me. I know you you've inquired several times, and I've debated it, and and I was just holding it for the right time, and this is the right time-the 25th anniversary of the event. Michael Hingson  05:40 Yeah, it is, and and and as as we've said, if you find anybody who needs a a speaker to come in and speak, let me know. But but for now, we get to chat about you and and hear your story, which I think is the important thing. I think we'll probably talk about both of our stories in the course of the day, no doubt about it. But I really am glad that you are here and that you are able to to talk with us today and and and talk about things. So let's start the way I love to start with people. Let's start at the beginning. Tell me kind of about the early Bob growing up and so on. Let's start with that. Bob Ellis  06:17 Well, I I grew up in let's say grew up until I was four years old. I lived. I was born in Pensacola, Florida. Lived in the Panhandle. Mother and father got divorced, and we moved to Norfolk, Virginia. And it was just my my mother and I until I was 14 years old. And I found out about my dad and found some letters from him and insisted to go see him. And so, between 14 and 15, I made a couple of unauthorized attempts to to make my way to Florida. On the third attempt, I made it, and it was quite a surprise for my father. Ended up living with him and being my closest friend up until I had he had grandkids, we had kids, and so I lived and grew up in the Destin, Fort Worth, Fort Walton area. Went to work, and this is where the story begins. I went to work at Eglin Air Force Base as a as a janitor in a gas station for the Army Air Force Exchange Service, so that I could continue to play high school football and practice, was a great job. It was an opportunity to work with the military, be around the military, and I took great pride in that feeling that that that that while I I wanted to go into the air force and I wanted to fly jets, that opportunity just never presented itself because the Vietnam War was going on and they were banking pilots instead of taking pilots. Anyway, I I ended up staying with the Army Air Force Exchange Service for 34 years. I moved all over the world. I've seen the every AOR and every combat scenario since the Vietnam War. Not in the Vietnam War, but I was in the refugee program, helping with the resettlement back in 1972, 1973. Spent the rest of my career going wherever they sent me, and and and that was from Tokyo, Japan, to to Tuli, Greenland, to California, and ultimately to to Texas. Michael Hingson  08:30 I remember during the Vietnam War, someone called me one day. I was a student at UC Irvine, and there was a refugee camp fairly close to the university, and someone said, and someone said, "There's a blind young man at the sent at the refugee center, and we should go see him. And so we we bought a transistor radio for him and went out to visit with him and spent some time with him, and I never got to see him after that. But I hope I hope he did well. He he seemed like he was doing okay, but he was a little bit lost, needless to say, because it's a whole bunch of people. There are no a lot of people who knew much about blindness and blind people, but I would presume he did reasonably okay. I hope so, but that was the only time I specifically had an involvement with him or anyone at the refugee camps. Later, when I met my wife Karen, she lived, I think, a door down, and she and her parents lived a door down from a Vietnamese couple, and he was a tailor and actually made her wedding dress, which was kind of cool, and so we got to spend a fair amount of time with the Voo's, which was was good, but what's. Interesting for me now, with with now being well so many years later. In November, I will be going to do a speech in Hanoi, so I'm really looking forward to to going over there and and experiencing it. At least it'll be a little bit cooler then than it probably is now. So we'll see, but it'll be it'll be pretty enjoyable to go and again see a different a different part of the world, and I I think we'll be fine. At least that's that's that's the plan. Bob Ellis  10:34 That that that that tour that I had at Eglin Air Force Base with the refugees, will come back to to to 911 2001 and the experiences that I had at that refugee camp replicated in the Pentagon park and lot there in 911. So we'll get to that. I'll explain it further. Michael Hingson  10:56 Yeah, I'm sure it was a a great a great lesson. Where did you do college, or did you Bob Ellis  11:03 went to went to Duke University and the University and the University of Maryland? Michael Hingson  11:10 Okay. Well, at Bob Ellis  11:12 least much of it was correspondence as well, only because I was deployed for for so many years back to back, 17 moves in 34 years. Michael Hingson  11:22 Wow, Duke University. At least you didn't go to one of those other schools in North Carolina. Boy, talk about talk about rivalries and basketball. What a what a group down there. Bob Ellis  11:35 Oh, I know, I know. Michael Hingson  11:38 I once spoke in Kentucky, and the Wildcats were in the NCAA championship that year, and I was asked to speak at an event on the night of the championship. But I was told I had to end by 630. I could not go one second past 630 because the gym I was speaking in was going to clear out. Well, I ended in time so that at 630, what they said was absolutely true. That gym cleared out. Everybody went home to watch the game. Bob Ellis  12:09 That's that's sports. Michael Hingson  12:11 Not sports. It is, but it's okay. I I learned a lot down there and got to meet a number of people, and so it was it was a lot of fun to to do it, and then years later I was in North Carolina when NC State and UNC were playing to see who was going to go into the championship. So again, pretty interesting world, and and sports ruled everything then, so it's okay. It Bob Ellis  12:43 hasn't it hasn't changed at all because my my my daughter I got her graduate studies done at NC State, and it hasn't changed a bit. It's just I'll bet it's just crazy as it's when was 20 3040 years ago, Michael Hingson  12:58 and it shall ever be, won't it? Bob Ellis  13:01 Yeah, yeah. Her undergraduate degree was at University of Texas. This was my son's, and she went on to NC State, and and he went on to medical school in in Houston. Michael Hingson  13:16 Okay. Well, UC Irvine, when I was there, had the championship water polo team, but that's what we had. But they started basketball while I was there, although it wasn't anything huge. But a couple of years ago, they made it to the Sweet 16, and that was kind of fun for UC Irvine. One of these days, it'll go all the way. Bob Ellis  13:40 Yep. Michael Hingson  13:41 Well, anyway, so you you went to college, and and what did you major in? Bob Ellis  13:45 Political science. Michael Hingson  13:47 Okay, political science Bob Ellis  13:48 and business management. With a with my two aspirations, I wanted to. I really wanted to major in in aviation science, but that that wasn't offered. So that's political science and business science, business law. Michael Hingson  14:06 But you were working for the Army Air Force Exchange Service. What is that exactly? Bob Ellis  14:11 Yeah, it's a it's it's it's a non-appropriated funded Service provided all goods. I think of it as the the Walmart or the Target of of the civilian sector, except the Army Air Force Exchange Service has stored everything from stores, every business that you can think of therein, from stores to convenience stores to gas stations to beauty shops and barber shops to dining facilities, franchise Burger Kings, anything that a soldier and his family needs at the base or overseas or in the combat arena, where we were there with it, providing it. It's been a great career. Michael Hingson  14:59 Did you? Do you have any involvement with, especially here in the U.S. the the Randolph Sheppard programs, the blind vending stand operations at any of the facilities? Bob Ellis  15:09 Yep, sure did many many times. We're still working with it. There's there's some issues present right now under the Randolph Shepherd that they're looking at. I don't know what what's going to change, but yes, sir, we were very, very close to that. Michael Hingson  15:24 Yeah, I know there. The current government's looking at it; they want to scale a lot of it back, which would, I think, not be a good thing. I think there's a lot of reasons to keep it, but we'll see. We'll see. We'll see how it goes. But I, the closest I ever came to dealing with anything from AAES was I was invited to speak once at an organizational meeting of the National Property Managers Association in the military. Are you familiar with that? Bob Ellis  15:56 I am. Yes. Michael Hingson  15:57 And when I was asked to come, the Speakers Bureau didn't do a good research job because they told me, "Oh, it's the people who rent apartments and all that. When I got down to the to the event, I will say that the National Property Managers Association certainly serves a nice breakfast. But anyway, the conversation just didn't seem like what I what I was expecting. So I asked somebody, and they told me that the organization was the organization that had complete jurisdiction over anything physical that the government owned, and Bob Ellis  16:30 absolutely Michael Hingson  16:31 that that changed my grass. Sorry, Bob Ellis  16:34 right down to the grass, right down to the grass and the concrete. Michael Hingson  16:37 There you go. Well, it also changed my speech in 10 minutes, but it was fun. They invited me back the next year, so that was good. But it's it's fun when you're you're planning to do a particular speech, and suddenly it turns out it's got to change. It's good to have the flexibility to do that. But I'm I'm glad I had the opportunity to do it, and hopefully we'll have opportunities to do it again, but you have served a lot of different kinds of of services within AAES, and and I assume that's all worked out pretty well. Bob Ellis  17:14 That that worked out very well. Yep, I had I started at the bottom and and climbed as close to the top as I possibly could, but Michael Hingson  17:23 you eventually got the the highest medal that was available for civilians when you retired or after you retired. Bob Ellis  17:31 No, the highest award that I ever received was from my man over the Pentagon 911 support program, which was a nice medoris civilian award. Michael Hingson  17:46 Okay, where is your favorite place to live in the world? Or is that really easy to say? I mean, you've been all over the place and seen a lot of different kinds of places. Don't know how much you got to two of them, but anyway, Bob Ellis  18:00 it wasn't the two places that I that I went overseas, which was Japan and Greenland. Those were the longest tours of my life. Beautiful country in Japan, and and great facilities and support in tuning Greenland. But I would I would guess throughout the United States, I had a great assignment at the Army War College, and I had a great assignment at Travis Air Force Base here in Michael Hingson  18:26 California. Yeah, Bob Ellis  18:28 yeah. Michael Hingson  18:30 I've spoken. Bob Ellis  18:30 My son was born in Japan. He's dual citizen as a result on the Air Force Base, and my daughter was born in California. So it was a great time, mainly because the kids were younger and and and and we were in great climate areas. Michael Hingson  18:48 When people ask me what my favorite place in the United States is, I say everywhere. I I just enjoy meeting people wherever I go in the U.S. It's so many different cultures and customs and ways of doing things. It is so fun to to see all the different places and see how they are. People ask what I like, where I like outside the U.S. And so far, it's been New Zealand. I would say is probably the best, but Japan has to be up there too. I've really enjoyed being in Japan. I've been there a couple times, and I thoroughly enjoyed Bob Ellis  19:23 it. I, I had, I think the most the the greatest thing about the assignments was some of the people I I got to to meet in in my in my tours. One of them would be the Crown Prince of of Thailand, who who is now the king of Thailand, King Rama, got to meet him when he was a pilot, and supported him when when I was at Yokota Air Base, and multiple other celebrities. I I had the opportunity as a kid to attend the funeral. For Douglas MacArthur, and and his his memorial was right across the street in North Virginia from where my mother worked. And 20 years later, I had the opportunity to to meet mrs. Mcarthur, Jean MacArthur, at Gracie Mansion in New York, and I I I wrote protocol. I when it came time for her to to meet me and meet meet her, I got down on one knee and I held her hand and I said, "I want to tell you a little story, ma'am. And she said, "Well, certainly, absolutely. And I told her the story how when the general had died in in 1964, I was required by my my mother to go to the funeral, and the most fascinating person I'd ever seen in my life was herself, and she just got she just turned red. Well, long story short, I was at an army command at Fort Hamilton. The next day, the the group the the installation commander called me over to his office, very angry, but he wanted me to know that I was going to be the first civilian aide for the old lady, which was mrs. Mcarthur, and he had to take one of his lieutenants off. And I got to know the family and and the Mcarthurs as a result of that. So lots of opportunities, just absolutely amazing. 911, and we'll get to it. I got to meet President Bush momentarily, but I I got to meet him and have a short conversation. Michael Hingson  21:32 I got to meet him in 2005. We went to the Oval Office, and we were supposed to have a two minute photo op, but he kept wanting to interact. We ended up talking for about 15 minutes. He kept the Italian ambassador or prime minister waiting, but it was a was a great conversation. I very much enjoyed having the opportunity to meet with him. Bob Ellis  21:53 Yeah, he was remarkable. Michael Hingson  21:54 Yeah, in in so many ways. If Speaker 1  22:00 you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Michael Hingson  22:33 So that's that's pretty cool. So as you were going around to all these different places, what would you say you were learning. Bob Ellis  22:41 I was learning business. I was learning relationships. I was learning marketing. Pretty much anything that you wanted to do as a general manager or a vice president, the exchanges let you do it. You know, until you got too far gone, and they they reel you back in. But I love being able to run multiple businesses on the installation, and and be accountable for them, and run them at a profit, and and at the end of the day, do great things for military families. Michael Hingson  23:16 Wow! So you um, you you've you've had a lot of challenges and and had to learn a lot of different things. Needless to say, but I would would think that you've you've been able to to keep a lot of that and use it. And you know we've referred to September 11 th, and so let's let's get to around that time. The first thing I would ask, and people have asked me, but you're in a better position in theory than I. Did you have any inkling that something like September 11th was going to happen? Bob Ellis  23:53 Well, actually, September 11th was was happening. I left for work about 4:30 in the morning. I lived out in the suburbs in Centerville, Virginia, and it was one of those days that you just wished you didn't have to go to work. It was the as the sun was coming up, it had a little cold breeze to it. The skies were blue. It was just one of those days that you just wanted to sit out in the yard and and relax or go bicycling, whatever. But I did my duty and I drove in to the Washington D.C. area and reported to my office on time, which was right around 5o'clock. My staff showed up around six and some at seven, and my secretary came in, and I don't know exactly what time it was, but it was shortly after, right around 9o'clock in Eastern Time, when the first airplane had hit the the trade center. Michael Hingson  24:49 Yeah, Bob Ellis  24:49 846-940-6846, Yes, right, 846. Yeah, and and so I I went in to look at the. The the television monitor standing there it was just her and I at the time and and and I said that's not an accident and she says how do you know that I said look at the skies that was an airliner they were talking about it was a little small private aviation well I'm a pilot I've been a pilot for 40 years 41 years I knew exactly, you know, that that where it was, what it was doing, and that wasn't a it wasn't an accident. And and my inkling was is that I was in a in rented space in Arlington, Virginia, because we had been moved out because the wedge that got attacked was the one that was still under construction. My office had not been completed there, and and I had a meeting in that wedge at 9o'clock that morning. And my secretary said to me, "You know, Bob, the Pentagon is next. And I paused for a minute and I looked at her and I said, "How in the world could you even imagine that, you know that that that's a fortress? Who would be crazy enough to attack the Pentagon? And she says, I I just I don't want you to go over, you know, just just just do it by phone, which I I probably could have done. And I said, No, I'm I'm going to go over there. If they're going if they're going to attack the Pentagon, I'm going to go down with it, and that was kind of my philosophy. So, in the back of my mind, seeing that airplane hit the Trade Center and her telling me that certainly made me wonder if it wasn't a possibility. Michael Hingson  26:33 So, you didn't. You don't think that anyone, and I've never heard of any such, but that anyone had any advance notice? There wasn't chatter. There wasn't anything that made people suspect what might be getting ready to happen. Bob Ellis  26:47 No, I I I think that is the the worst our country has ever been off guard. It reminds me of you know the the attack on Hawaii and that you know in in Pearl Harbor. We were completely unprepared, and I thought we were completely unprepared on 911. And in fact, after the attack, I knew we were unprepared when I saw the two jets fly over with no armament on the wings. So no, I don't think anybody had any idea. Michael Hingson  27:18 Well, the other side of it, and I've talked about this in in some talks I've given. I talk a lot about trust and teamwork, and like it or not, one of the things that I observe is you had 19 terrorists who functioned well enough as a team that they didn't talk about it. They didn't let anything come out. So no matter how much armament or whatever we might have had, I'm not sure whether we could have predicted that on September 11th, what occurred was going to happen. Bob Ellis  27:49 You know, all the indicators were there. You know, those those 19 trained at private airports, and they and during their training, it was it was reported multiple times that all they were interested in was taking off, not landing. I mean, first clue, you know. Okay. Why would you just be interested? He's taking off an airplane, and and I always found that very curious, and I'd heard it several times. That should have set alarm bells off. Should have. It didn't. Apparently, it did. Michael Hingson  28:20 Good point, and you know the the thing is though that, as as you pointed out, who would have thought that anybody would attack the Pentagon, the fortress that it was? Who Bob Ellis  28:33 yeah, Michael Hingson  28:33 who would have thought? So again, you can only go by what you got, and so nobody, I think, would have ever imagined that. Well, of course, the first plane hit the World Trade Center, and at first, people didn't really know what happened because there were really not very many people who who saw it. In fact, we only have the few photos that were taken by the French photographers who were there for something else, but then a little after nine, the second plane hit, and that changed the dynamic and changed the perspective a lot. Although a bunch of people who started seeing it on TV thought it was just a movie, and it wasn't true, but the second plane hitting changed the attitudes. I think for most people, and that's when people knew something was going on. Bob Ellis  29:24 Yeah, I didn't know anything about the second trade center. I had left my office in Crystal City, and I had headed to the Pentagon. And the meeting, the meeting that I had was with the Army Personnel Chief and several other folks. And as it turned out, that is exactly the window that the airplane flew into. That was ground zero for the for the for the target for the airplane going in just above the first floor for the Pentagon. So I didn't know anything. I was I was trapped at that point. I was trapped. Couldn't go um. Wouldn't go um. Didn't want to go um. And I had lived in New York City for five years, and I was my biggest. I was always impressed by the New York City Fire Department. I mean, they're they're just walking heroes if you've ever seen them. I mean, they were like they were like giants when you got next to them, and that they would they were just superhumans. And I always wondered upon the top floors how in the world you would get a fire put out at the top of the World Trade Center, and and I did not know until two days later when I made it home. That was my first question to my family: How did they get the the fire out at the top of the World Trade Center? And I and and it was repeated to me centers, and I said, What are you talking about? Centers in my family, and they said, "Bob, the World Trade Centers are gone. I said, "I don't understand. How could they be gone? And that was that. That was you know two days later that I found out about that. It was quite a shock to me to learn what it actually while I was on on the Pentagon mission. Michael Hingson  30:58 Well, when the first plane hit. Well, in the second plane, the firefighters were going up the stairs carrying all their equipment, and I had had had known about that and asked people, "Well, why are you or would you be carrying equipment? Because I met I I didn't meet the FDNY people ahead of the World Trade Center attacks, but I did meet with other people to learn about emergency preparedness and so on because I felt as the leader of an office, it was my job to know because I wasn't going to be able to read signs, and I love information, so I was trying to learn all I could, and they told me that where would if you if you had equipment stored in the in the towers, then people would go to it. Firefighters would go to it and get the the equipment. What floor do you put it on? Because no matter what floor you put it on, what if the fire broke out one floor below? You know, you can't get to the equipment. So the only way they could get up the stairs to fight the fires was to carry all of the equipment with them, yep, yep. Not enough is said about those guys in history. No, and I met a number of them coming up the stairs as we were going down, and they wanted to escort me down, and I didn't want them to do that because I knew they were a team, and I I pushed back pretty hard and said, no, you guys go up and we'll go down unless we can help you fight the fires, and they said no. The reason they eventually let me go down without any assistance was I had a friend with me who could see, and I said, "Look, David can see. Don't worry about us. And David and they turned to David and they said, "You're with him. And David said, "Yeah, leave him alone. He's fine. So we went on down, and they went up. I don't know whether the people we interacted with made it down or perished up above. It was about 10 after 10 after nine or so when we got to the 30th floor where we met them. So it was another hour and almost 20 minutes before the tower collapsed, but I don't know where the firefighters were, or how many people from the groups that we interacted with perished, or if they all made it out. I don't know, but Bob Ellis  33:12 yep, I I memorized all those numbers. You know, 189 between the airplane and the Pentagon, 200 injured, but 189. 189 total were 64 on the airplane, 125 in the Pentagon, and I'll never forget those numbers. Yeah, I'll never forget the time. I looked at my watch at 9:17, and and I have to tell you that on 9/11, I always sit very quietly until I get past 917, not 937. I'm sorry, 937. Michael Hingson  33:48 So Bob Ellis  33:48 in the morning. Michael Hingson  33:49 So, how close were you to where the plane came into the Pentagon? Bob Ellis  33:56 About 300 yards. When when it was clear that the meeting wasn't going to happen because the air traffic control system had been shut down. They released us to go back to our our offices, and I was going out the front door. I left about 930. It was supposed to start at nine 930. The generals said we'll just reconvene, and and I agreed. And from his office on on the south portico, I was walking out the front door. Literally, I heard the engines spool up. I had been in the AOR in rail combat munitions, and and I've heard cruise missiles, and and I could hear this one spinning up, and I thought it was a cruise missile, and so when it hit when it hit the building, it was just it was just a horrendous sound. But my first impression was to run to it to see what happened, what what what caused that, and there was nothing there. It was just four or five cars burning and smoke billowing out of the building. And and the the rest turned into a you know a rescue and a a recovery. Michael Hingson  35:08 AOR is what Bob Ellis  35:10 the area of responsibility. Michael Hingson  35:13 Okay, area of responsibility. Okay, Bob Ellis  35:16 yeah, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, wherever we are, it's it's N A O R, and that's your A O R. That's state. That's where you are. So that that's where I encountered first first and only live person coming out of the building, and which was a which was a really big surprise. But I knew that there was something that I I had to do, and and one of the things was to, if he needed assistance, getting him assistance. And there were several people. He was he was he was burned third degree burns over his whole body. He lived. I said one prayer was for him. And as it turned out, he became a a great ambassador. Turned out to be a great friend, and is actually back in the Pentagon to this day, just steps away from his old office as a civilian, went went back on a presidential appointment. Michael Hingson  36:09 So, you mentioned the general a while ago. Was did he survive? Bob Ellis  36:15 No, he was the he was the highest ranking person that we lost in in the entire encounter, and it was the entire office was just instantly vaporized. So he did not survive. Michael Hingson  36:33 Well, so you heard the engines revving up, and you went after you heard the explosion and so on. You went over to see what was going on, and then what did you do? Because it certainly had to be a major surprise and a shock by any standard. Bob Ellis  36:49 Yeah, I went that side of the building, saw the hole in the building, kind of convinced myself it was a cruise missile, but I never heard such a loud engine noise. As it turned out, it was it was two big engines off of a 757 200, and so I immediately tried to figure out you know what can I do? What should I do? Should I even be here? And that's when I saw the colonel coming out of the building, and I was able to walk with him and four others over to the the road, the Washington Boulevard that goes around the Pentagon, and and I sat down on the telephone pole, a light pole that the airplane hit going in. Now I'm a pilot, and and I have to tell you to take an airplane going at Mach point eight seven, and hit a target, hit the building, and not hitting the ground was just absolutely amazing to me. So as they got the colonel into an SUV and and and got him out of the the scene, I sat there. Just it was almost like a movie I was watching. The triage was being set up. The Pentagon was burning. The emergency services units were starting to show up, and we had very intermittent phone capability. And I had I had a a friend, my my the commander that I worked for in Dallas at the time. This secretary's husband was a bodyguard for Secretary Rumsfeld, and and Secretary Rumsfeld was actually carrying litter patients, carrying people out of the debris area and out of the offices. He was actually helping people, and he he realized that something needed to be done. So he gave Jerry a note, a piece of paper. We called them snowflakes, but it was a tablet, and he had listed what needed to be done and what needed to be done now. And Jerry found me sitting over there and gave me that that piece of paper, and it had everything listed on it. He wanted a a tactical field operation in place. He wanted it now, not yesterday. He wanted something in the interim, and it was to provide emergency relief supplies. So I I sat down on that telephone pole and I called our our local dist not local our largest distribution center in the world was down in Newport News, and I got the director on the phone and I said, I have an official order from you coming from the Secretary of Defense, and and don't override, don't just just follow my instructions until we can get to the commander at AFIS headquarters, and so I gave him the list. I just gave him the full list of things that we needed to get rolling, and I called another gentleman that was just across the river, the American Logistics Association, which owned all of the brokers and manufacturers, and I gave him a list of stuff that we needed now, like Gatorade boots. the The surface was over 2000 degrees, and the emergency service boots were melting almost upon contact. So I had I had 1000s, hundreds of 1000s of dollars of equipment. And supplies coming in, and we set up the USO tent, put everything in the USO tent. We raided all the stores in the in the Washington D.C. area. I was able to contact the region manager, and I told him, you know, what we needed to take it off the shelf, put it in the back seat of the cars, don't account for it, and get it to me. And that's what we did the entire first night was setting up the USO trailer, and the next morning I had two tactical field tractor trailers coming up the ramp just as the sun was coming up, and they were loaded with supplies, and that's what stayed in place for the next two months. Over $2 million worth of merchandise, emergency recovery type merchandise, everything from linens to the towels to eye wash, and and and we had to actually have some special boots made out of leather for the dogs because the dogs' feet were so it was it was quite an operation. We ended up well running within within 24 hours of the attack, Michael Hingson  41:04 why is it that you are able to stay pretty focused through all of this? Bob Ellis  41:08 I you know I you know I I've often asked that question. I wanted to go home. Alls I could think of is my kids, my wife. What what are they doing? What are they thinking? They're watching this on the news, and I had I had drifted over to which my car was very close, and it was taped off. The parking lot was taped off. It was a crime scene. There was no going anywhere. There was no transportation. If I wanted to walk 40 miles, I guess I could have, but because I couldn't go anywhere, I had to do something there on the scene, so that's that's that's what I did, and and it wasn't until the next day when the phone started working again, our two star in Dallas was able to get through to me on on my BlackBerry, and he wanted to know what the situation was, and and and I told him, and and he said, what what are we going to do? And I explained to him what we had done already, and he says, "How did you do all of that? I said, "I picked up the phone and I told him I was working for Secretary Rumsfeld, and this is the order. And and he says, "How are we going to pay for all of this? I said, "Sir, this is our finest hour. We're not. We're going to donate. These are all donating goods, and and it really was an interesting. I I just I just don't know. I was compelled. He he he ordered me on that second day to go home, and and I said I had no way to go home. And he said go to the motor pool. I'm going to call the motor pool. He had been the commander of the Air Force One Squadron, so he had a lot of connections in Washington, and he he got me a car, and I went home long enough to change clothes and and and to come back out. So it was it was just out of adrenaline, I think. Somebody had to do something, and and everything that I've told you here today is not written anywhere in history. I own every bit of what happened in in in that story, other than some of the people that were working there. Michael Hingson  43:07 What phone did you use that first day? You said you're you're it was the second day or the next day that you're phoned. So how were you able to communicate? Bob Ellis  43:17 We had Blackberries, and and until the networks got completely overrun, we were able to use it. And and so by the second third day, we we had pretty consistent communication, because the the the commander called me back that same morning, and and he said, you know, he said, how come you haven't been home? And I explained to him, and he says, "Will you do me one favor? And I said, "I would. He said, "Will you go back into the building? Said, "Sir, the building's on fire. He says, "Well, well, you get in the front, and I'm looking at it. He was looking at it on television, and the military clothing store was in the very front, within 100 feet, probably of that door that I went out of. And he says, "Would you see if our people survive, and if the store itself survived? It was sitting near the the area. I went in the store. I went into the building, into the burning building, and was able to look in the door, and I could see that the the room was full of smoke, and the door was locked. So I told him I would assume that our people made it out, alive and okay. And they say that was a, and they did, and they absolutely did. And in fact, everybody that that that that had any kind of supervisory capability around the Beltway, they volunteered to come over and work for me and and operating that facility for 2024 hours a day, seven days a week. Wow! So and not and not to shorten the the question, I wasn't there, but because of what I was doing in the in the Pentagon, my old homestead was at Fort Hamilton. Fort Hamilton picked up the same thing and went over to the Trade Center area, and they gave them a place to put a mobile. Food truck, and they brought supplies in and pretty much supported the firefighters and the and the and the police there. So so we had quite an operation going for a long time. Michael Hingson  45:11 Yeah, and and needed to, but it was interesting and commendable that in both places people were able to focus, and were able to carry out missions. I know at the World Trade Center when the two towers collapsed. Of course, it was it was unexpected, but we know now, of course, why they collapsed. It wasn't that the planes hit; it's that they were they were full of what 36,000 pounds of jet fuel each, and that exploding jet fuel is what damaged the infrastructure of the buildings to cause them to be able to collapse. But as well as at the Pentagon, but very quickly people were able to start to move and deal with issues and put procedures in place that were able to, I'm sure, keep more people from perishing and keep kept more people being able to focus throughout the whole the whole sequence of events. It it certainly was very scary, but it is something that that people like you were able to do. I know for me, the reason I was able to focus was because I had learned what to do in an emergency at the World Trade Center. I spent time with people and I learned how the whole building was structured, so I knew when the building tipped, why it tipped, and and things like that. You Bob Ellis  46:40 felt it. You you felt it. Michael Hingson  46:43 Oh yeah. Oh my god. We moved probably at least 20 feet, and then it came back, and oh my Speaker 2  46:48 god, it Michael Hingson  46:48 got vertical again. It got vertical again, and then a few seconds later, it dropped about six feet because the expansion joints went back to their normal configuration. But Bob Ellis  46:59 we uh we we knew from 937 till about 5o'clock that evening there would be no more survivors. It was over, and and and the dogs were getting depressed because they were they were they were not cadaver dogs. They were recovery dogs, and they were used to fight. And we we actually had ceremonies for the dogs every day, where we sewed flags onto their collars, and they had special water and special food. So they played a big, big role in morale, mine especially. Michael Hingson  47:33 And at the same time, I know people had to do drills to keep the dogs focused because they weren't able to find people, as you said, so they had to do things to give them something to find to keep them happy, which was was so important. Bob Ellis  47:50 Yeah, that we had two two tractor trailers lined up. It was just just two 300 feet from where you went into the damaged area of the Pentagon, and those dogs and their handlers would get up underneath those trailers and sleep, and they would play with the dogs. We actually had some carpets brought out, tarps brought out, and that's kind of where that was kind of their headquarters during 911. We had to make it up as we went along, and and the other interesting part of this story is in 1972 at the at the refugee camp, I was sleeping in the back of a van because there was just no way to go home. It was too it was too far to drive home to turn around and come back at 8o'clock the next morning, and I heard somebody knocking at the door, and and and I and I opened up the door, and it was a military colonel in uniform, and there was a civilian standing there with him. And he says, "Are you part of this operation? And I said, "Yes, sir, I am. He said, "Who are you with? And I said, "The Army Air Force Exchange Service. And and he says, "You're not provided any other facilities. This, I said, that was my choice. And as it turned out, I was speaking to Secretary Rumsfeld during his first administration as Secretary of Defense, and it was interesting that when he found out that what I did in in that program, I won the Indo Indo China Award for service, and then of course you you move ahead to to 2001, and we we knew each other. I had briefed him several times, and we we knew each other in the Pentagon. And that day, he knew that I would know what to do for the support role, and that's why he sent the letter up. And as it turned out, when he retired and and left the Pentagon, he was on a book tour, and and the the general secretary and myself got an invite to come to the book tour with him and and have lunch with him. And he handed me a book and he said, "I want you to have this, but I don't want you to open it up until you, Bob. I don't want you to open it up till you get home. I don't want you to give it to your wife. And and it was like this. Sure, I'm not not a problem, and so I got I got home. You know, this is this is 10 years later, and handed the book to her, and I said, "Open it up. I'm not wasn't allowed, and there's a nice thank you page on the front from Secretary Rums for allowing him to use me on 9/11, and you just you just that's the best reward that I could have ever ever expected. A guy that I just idolized to do that. Michael Hingson  50:26 When you got home, so you weren't able to talk to your wife before you got home, or did you ever get communication so you could call her? Bob Ellis  50:33 No, I didn't. I when I finally got the phone back up and running and got in the car. I had lost the battery, so I said, "I'm gonna be home in in an hour. I'll just be there. But General Wax called up, and she answered the phone. She went. She went sometime during that day and pulled the kids out of the private school, brought them home. She could see my car. It was a yellow SUV, and she could see it in the South parking lot in the news choppers going around. She said that was my car where my spot was, and General Wax got her on the phone and she and and she answered the phone and he said this is C J Wax and she thought that was the call. She thought that was it, and she alls I could do was drop to my knees and and and C J said and it's it's okay. I've ordered him to come home. He's all right. He's running. He's running a a program for us for for recovery. And if he's not there, he should be there shortly. And then by the time I got there, I got to the front step. I'm asking the question about the World Trade Center, how they got the fire out, and I was ordered that I could not go in the house because I smelled like smoke. So, so two minutes before that, I was the most important person in the world, and and then all of a sudden, I was I was back to Bob, and I wasn't going to wear that that suit in the house to to smoke it. So anyway, that's that's how she found out. He he called her up. I asked him. I think I asked him if he would get in touch with her at our last conversation, and he did. Michael Hingson  52:06 Soon after both towers collapsed, like a minute or so later, I called and got through to my wife Karen. I had talked with her before we left our office, and then when we got downstairs, I couldn't get through to her because the circuits were busy, and it was obvious that everyone we learned later was saying goodbye to loved ones, and so the circuits were busy. So after both towers collapsed, I was able to get through to her, and as I tell people, there were tears on both sides of the phone at the when that conversation started, but she was the first one who told us how two aircraft had been crashed into the World Trade Center towers, one to the Pentagon, and at that time, the fourth one was apparently still missing over Pennsylvania, and of course, then it crashed at Shanksville. Bob Ellis  52:52 I love it. Michael Hingson  52:54 Yeah, but we, you know, we talked, so she knew I was okay. Then a friend of ours, Tom Painter, who had been a friend of Karen's at high school out in California, but Tom, over the years, had ended up moving to New Jersey. He came down to stay with her, not knowing until he arrived whether I was in the office that day or out with a customer or what was going on. And of course, then she told him, and so he drove her to the train station to pick me up. When, when I got back out to Westfield, we went home. And you talk about with with dogs. We got in the house, and I took Roselle's harness off because I was going to take her out, and she would have none of it. She ran off, grabbed her favorite tug bone and started playing tug of war with my retired guide dog Linny, and I talked to the veterinarians at Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael the next day, and they said, "Did anything threaten her? And I said, "No, not directly. And they said, "That's why she ran off because it was over. Nothing threatened her. Bob Ellis  53:58 Comfortable. Michael Hingson  53:59 She, they don't. Dogs don't do what if like we do, and so she was comfortable. She was happy. She wanted to play, and then then she did go out. But by the same token, the the whole point was that she was able to deal with with all of it and was able to to focus. Then we got her outside and and came back in, and she ate and and all that. But the the the thing is that she focused all day, and and she did a a wonderful job. And the reason that she focused and did so well was mainly because I worked at keeping her focus by telling her every chance I got. You're a good girl. What a good dog! Good dog. You're doing a great job. Keep going. I did that all the way down the stairs in the World Trade Center, and I was very deliberate about that because I knew she had to sense the fear and what was going on, and I wanted her to know that I was okay and I was going to be there for. Her, which is of course what teamwork and support is all about. You understand that very well. You you proved it in so many ways. I kept working with Roselle and kept her focused, and you know it all it all really went well. I still think one of the most relevant things for me in the World Trade Center. I went down the stairs with a guy named David Frank. David was from our corporate office in California, and David and I were going to be conducting sales seminars that day, teaching some resellers how to sell our products. And we got down to about the 50th floor, so David was there to talk about the the pricing and so on. I was going to do the majority of the presentation because I was going to be their technical contact, anyway, and we got to about the 50th floor, going down, and suddenly David said, "Mike, we're going to die. We're not going to make it out of here. And as I tell people, since I got a teaching credential, I had learned all about the secrets of how to yell at students. So I just said, "Stop it, David. If Roselle and I can go down these stairs, so can you. And he then immediately said that I brought him out of his spunk, and he told me that later as well. But what he told me was that he wanted to walk a floor below me on the stairs and shout up to me everything that he was seeing. He had to take his mind off of what was going on, and so he asked if I cared, and I said, "No, go ahead. That's what you need to do. That's fine. So I got like down to the 48th floor, and he yelled, "47th floor, Mike. All's clear here. Going on down. So we went down several floors that way. Eventually, I got to 45, and he was 44th floor. This is where the Port Authority cafeteria is not stopping. And the reason I mention it is because I think what David did is one of the unsung things that is so important from September 11th. He kept shouting up to me everything that he saw, but the reality is, anyone in the sound of his voice heard that there was someone who was okay going down the stairs, and he had to keep panic out of people's senses for so many individuals, because they just heard him, Mike, 43rd floor, all's good here. Going on down the stairs, all the way down the stairs. He had to have been able to keep so many people focused because he was able to keep his mind off of what was going on by shouting to me, and I think that that's so important, and so I'm. I always tell that story. I've been telling it for many years now because I want people to know what he did to keep so many people focused going down the stairs, and he had to have done that. Bob Ellis  57:31 Well, you know, I have. That's that's the first I've heard that, and and and and I read everything that I followed your story very closely, as well as the colonel who I was so close to, but there there are a couple of stories that are just never mentioned, not talked about, and one of them where we had to do every day. There was an update that the military gave the families an update as to what is happening, what was found, what was recovered, what to expect, and they would bring the kids in to listen to these brutal military briefings. I mean, just you know, these were these were soldiers, these were these were combat folks, and this is the way they briefed. And the therapy dogs were brought in, and there wasn't but about a dozen of them, and I will never forget not only the kids on the floor with the arms around those dogs, but some of the adults were as well. And I thought, what what a moment! That was the most touching moment of my entire life witnessing that. I mean, I could have done without it, but it was it was a very special moment. And then the the other thing that the world doesn't know about is on the second day, I got a I got a phone call from Secretary Rumsfeld's office that the VA was completely out of coffin flags. We had nothing in inventory to to cover the remains or the caskets for burial, and what could I do? And and right right from the Pentagon parking lot, I I called one of the buyers that bought American flags in Dallas, and then I asked her who do you get flags from, and she says it's American Flag Company. I'll give them credit for that, and and I said you need you need to get their entire inventory. We need to get it flown in, whatever expenses cover it, and get them here. The Pentagon doesn't have them, and New York doesn't have them. And those flags came in. They were they were there about that midnight that that that night. Now boxed up, thrown in the bag box, whatever tape they were bound, but everybody that came out later, you know, the recoveries as we got deeper into the debris, that had a had a flag that that came that came from us in the as well as at the Pentagon, and they put two very big special flags in there. I mean, like you see flying over a car dealer. And they hung that on the side of the Pentagon. And if you look at any of the any of the news willers of that time, it was on day two that flag was hanging that that came in with the rest of the other flags. So it was it was quite impressive. You never know what the next moment was going to bring you on you know from my side and and and can I meet the challenge? That was what I constantly worry about. How could I let any of this down? And I've got to do something. And and we were making it up as we went along. Michael Hingson  1:00:33 Yeah, that's all you could do. And so when I go back to Bob Ellis  1:00:37 to to this to this day, you know, we go back. They've got 184 markers. I don't know how many people attend it, but it's it's right in that zone, right outside the building, in that grassy area where they they they've made that memorial. And 184 people, to include I think two infants, are are memorialized there forever, which is very touching. It was a that was a hard place to go back to. Still was New York City when I went to it because I'd never I had never been 20 years 20 years yet 18 years before I ever went to to New York City to see the recovery there. I've never I've not been to the to the to the Pennsylvania field. I plan to go. I want to go. Just hadn't been convenient to get there, but but if I do that, I will have seen all all the sites. Michael Hingson  1:01:26 Yeah, I haven't been to Pennsylvania either. In 2017, I did make it to the World Trade Center Museum. In well, so we moved out of Westfield, and I moved back to California in late January, beginning of February of 2002, to work for Guide Dogs for the Blind and and speak from there. And traveled around and speak. Karen was there for a couple more months selling our home, and then she came out. But in May of 2002, Roselle was going to be honored by Hart's Mountain, the pet food and pet supply company. So, so we went back to New York, and while we were there, I met one of the police officers with with one of the service with one of the rescue dogs that that had been around the World Trade Center, and he arranged for us to get in a vehicle and drive down into the pit that was where the World Trade Center was, and they had built an artificial, well, a temporary road, and they were bringing things up, but we got to go down to what would have been the seventh sublevel, the bottom of the tower, and it was just a for me just imagining it standing in that dirt area in a hole seven stories deep and remembering what what it was like, and then in 2017 I went to the World Trade Center Museum and got to spend a little bit of time there, and of course everything had been rebuilt. The reflecting pool was there, and so on. But it was nothing like what I remembered from having been in the World Trade Center, and I walked around with someone who was able to be aware and describe what was where we were and what was above us, or what part of the building we were in as we walked through the complex. But of course, it was totally different. So it was it was such a strange feeling to experience all of that. But we did it, you know. And so now I've been to the museum, and actually there is a there's an animal exhibit in the basement, and Roselle's collar is is part of that exhibit. We donated that to oh Bob Ellis  1:03:50 really, oh really, oh God, I I was I was thinking that when I asked you that question earlier today, and I was thinking about that that has got to be remarkable, you know that that that's what touched me so much at the period. That the fact that the two of you were such a team, and I read everything that newspapers printed and watched. I guess there was some there was some CBS specials and so forth too, where you were interviewed, and it was it was just it was just absolutely amazing. Michael Hingson  1:04:21 Well, it is. you know, it is a an awe-inspiring sort of thing. And you know, people always say, you know, don't you feel guilty about surviving when so many people didn't? And and I said, no, I I didn't have any control over that. But what I do have control over is having been a survivor. What am I going to do about it? It's my responsibility to decide how I'm going to deal with moving forward after something like that. And of course, the opportunity opened to travel and speak, and so I've been doing it ever since. And I believe my job is. Is to educate people about what happened on September 11th, and let them know t

Send us Fan MailWelcome back to Japanese America! In Season 3, Episode 7, we step directly into one of the most monumental, legally complex, and deeply emotional chapters in our community's history: the fight for Japanese American Redress. While most people think of Redress in terms of the landmark Civil Liberties Act of 1988 and the 120,000 Japanese Americans forced into domestic concentration camps, there is a massive parallel story of international kidnapping and legal limbo that took decades to bring to light. In this episode, we explore the extraordinary narrative of Japanese Latin American (JLA) deportees. Through the rare, deeply personal oral histories of the three Naganuma Brothers—Jimmy, George Kazuharu, and Kazumu Julio Cesar—we trace a family's journey from a thriving life in Callao, Peru, to being abducted by the U.S. military, fumigated with DDT upon arrival in New Orleans, and incarcerated at the Department of Justice internment camp in Crystal City, Texas. We examine their multi-decade battle for basic legal status after being classified as "illegal entrants," and highlight the fierce advocacy of their sister Kiyo, whose bold confrontation with U.S. officials made her siblings some of the few Japanese Peruvians to receive the full $20,000 Redress settlement. Koji also shares his own personal connection to Crystal City, where his family was incarcerated after his grandfather gave up his citizenship, illustrating the diverse and irony-filled nature of that campLinks & Resources MentionedDiscover Nikkei & Densho Partnership: Listen to the full oral histories and read the complete transcripts for Jimmy Naganuma (https://ddr.densho.org/narrators/927/), George Naganuma (https://ddr.densho.org/narrators/928/), and Kazumu Julio Cesar Naganuma (https://ddr.densho.org/narrators/927/)Learn More: Visit the Japanese American National Museum (JANM.org) for exhibitions, history, and community resources.Follow & Support UsEnjoyed the episode?  Don't forget to rate, review, and tell a friend! CreditsThe music was created by Jalen BlankWritten by Koji Steven SakaiHosts: Michelle Malazaki and Koji Steven SakaiEdited by Koji Steven SakaiProduced by Koji Steven Sakai in conjunction with the Japanese American National MuseumSupport the show

La Vernia now can boast of having one of what many other Texas cities have. As we drive through Texas towns this summer, we notice one thing cities like Austin, Brenham, Lockhart, Kingsville, Crystal City, Rockport, Corpus Christi, Wichita Falls, Llano, New Braunfels, and Seguin have in common: They all have murals. According to https://discovertexasphotos.com/journal/murals-of-texas/, “murals have a way of transforming a town, adding bursts of color and personality to buildings that might otherwise blend into the landscape.” Every town has a history, its own story to tell. A mural can capture those important formative moments in a town's existence... Article Link

The Church Of The Souls Evolution with The Reverend Blake Rubie (Ordained Minister) From Army Roads to Soul Evolution: Service, Sacrifice, Reincarnation, and the Power of Prayer Spiritual Seeking, Public Speaking, and the Soul's Journey In this episode of The Church of the Soul's Evolution, host Reverend Blake Rubie opens by introducing the show as a place where he talks about spirituality and truth-seeking. He references his book The Grey Brain and the Golden Soul, explaining his belief that the physical brain relates to the body while the soul relates to the spirit. From there, he connects his radio work to public speaking, music, Toastmasters, and the value of learning to speak clearly and confidently over time. Toastmasters, Venezuela, and a Life of Service Reverend Blake reflects on his long relationship with Toastmasters and public speaking, tracing it back to his time in Cleveland and then into his Army assignment in Caracas, Venezuela. He describes serving in the military group there, improving his Spanish by speaking with local security guards, and remembering the poverty and gratitude he saw among Venezuelan people. He presents this period as both a professional and personal learning experience, shaped by language, faith, human connection, and awareness of economic hardship. Civilian Army Work, San Antonio, and a 44-Year Career The episode then follows Blake's transition from active-duty Army service into contractor and civilian work. He describes receiving a job opportunity through Rosemary and Tom Levitt, working under Army Installation Management Command, moving through contract changes involving Booz Allen Hamilton and Calibre, and eventually relocating to San Antonio when the organization moved from Crystal City, Virginia. He recounts working in operations, worldwide individual augmentation systems, and Army databases until his retirement, totaling almost 44 years of service connected to the Army. Family History, Immigration, Martial Arts, and Military Formation Blake looks back at his parents' lives, including his father's British Army service in World War II, his mother's experience during the bombing of London, their migration to Canada, and the family's later move to Guadalajara, Mexico. He then recounts his own early adulthood in San Diego, college studies, philosophy, martial arts, and work as a bellman before joining the Army in 1982. His military path includes infantry training, Germany, Fort Polk, Korea, Bowling Green State University ROTC, and the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, where he studied Turkish and led a competitive Army running team. Leadership, Language School, and Personal Achievement A major portion of the episode centers on Blake's pride in physical training, leadership, and military achievement. He describes leading a run team at Monterey, training hard, winning a large trophy five times, and recording a fast team time. He then discusses his Turkish language studies, passing the Defense Language Proficiency Test, attending the basic non-commissioned officer course at Fort Benjamin Harrison, and winning the honor graduate, distinguished leader, and Iron Man awards. These stories emphasize discipline, competitiveness, perseverance, and the pride his parents felt in his accomplishments. Kidney Donation, His Son's Trials, and the Gift of Life The most personal section concerns Blake's son, who was born with underdeveloped kidneys and eventually needed dialysis and transplantation. Blake explains that he received a compassionate reassignment, moved to the Presidio of San Francisco, and donated one of his kidneys to his son at Stanford University Children's Hospital in March 1995. He describes the physical effects of that old-style surgery, the scar, later disability issues, and the lifestyle changes it required. He strongly encourages kidney donation as a gift of life while also urging people to research how it may change them, and he mentions his son's book Finding Faith Through Dialysis as a resource for people facing similar trials. Reincarnation, Prayer, Afterlife Beliefs, and the Creator The final portion turns fully toward Reverend Blake's spiritual teachings. He presents his belief that human beings are co-creator gods in the making, moving through reincarnation across planets and lives toward eventual spiritual creation and union. He rejects eternal damnation, describing hell as temporary spiritual rehabilitation, and speaks intensely about suicide, prayer for souls, universal law, and the power of praying for others. The episode closes with Blake teaching that “a man will prey on man until man learns to pray for man,” then offering a prayer directly to the Creator of the universe, asking for blessing, help, love, and divine will for all children of Earth.

The Church Of The Souls Evolution with The Reverend Blake Rubie (Ordained Minister) From Army Roads to Soul Evolution: Service, Sacrifice, Reincarnation, and the Power of Prayer Spiritual Seeking, Public Speaking, and the Soul's Journey In this episode of The Church of the Soul's Evolution, host Reverend Blake Rubie opens by introducing the show as a place where he talks about spirituality and truth-seeking. He references his book The Grey Brain and the Golden Soul, explaining his belief that the physical brain relates to the body while the soul relates to the spirit. From there, he connects his radio work to public speaking, music, Toastmasters, and the value of learning to speak clearly and confidently over time. Toastmasters, Venezuela, and a Life of Service Reverend Blake reflects on his long relationship with Toastmasters and public speaking, tracing it back to his time in Cleveland and then into his Army assignment in Caracas, Venezuela. He describes serving in the military group there, improving his Spanish by speaking with local security guards, and remembering the poverty and gratitude he saw among Venezuelan people. He presents this period as both a professional and personal learning experience, shaped by language, faith, human connection, and awareness of economic hardship. Civilian Army Work, San Antonio, and a 44-Year Career The episode then follows Blake's transition from active-duty Army service into contractor and civilian work. He describes receiving a job opportunity through Rosemary and Tom Levitt, working under Army Installation Management Command, moving through contract changes involving Booz Allen Hamilton and Calibre, and eventually relocating to San Antonio when the organization moved from Crystal City, Virginia. He recounts working in operations, worldwide individual augmentation systems, and Army databases until his retirement, totaling almost 44 years of service connected to the Army. Family History, Immigration, Martial Arts, and Military Formation Blake looks back at his parents' lives, including his father's British Army service in World War II, his mother's experience during the bombing of London, their migration to Canada, and the family's later move to Guadalajara, Mexico. He then recounts his own early adulthood in San Diego, college studies, philosophy, martial arts, and work as a bellman before joining the Army in 1982. His military path includes infantry training, Germany, Fort Polk, Korea, Bowling Green State University ROTC, and the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, where he studied Turkish and led a competitive Army running team. Leadership, Language School, and Personal Achievement A major portion of the episode centers on Blake's pride in physical training, leadership, and military achievement. He describes leading a run team at Monterey, training hard, winning a large trophy five times, and recording a fast team time. He then discusses his Turkish language studies, passing the Defense Language Proficiency Test, attending the basic non-commissioned officer course at Fort Benjamin Harrison, and winning the honor graduate, distinguished leader, and Iron Man awards. These stories emphasize discipline, competitiveness, perseverance, and the pride his parents felt in his accomplishments. Kidney Donation, His Son's Trials, and the Gift of Life The most personal section concerns Blake's son, who was born with underdeveloped kidneys and eventually needed dialysis and transplantation. Blake explains that he received a compassionate reassignment, moved to the Presidio of San Francisco, and donated one of his kidneys to his son at Stanford University Children's Hospital in March 1995. He describes the physical effects of that old-style surgery, the scar, later disability issues, and the lifestyle changes it required. He strongly encourages kidney donation as a gift of life while also urging people to research how it may change them, and he mentions his son's book Finding Faith Through Dialysis as a resource for people facing similar trials. Reincarnation, Prayer, Afterlife Beliefs, and the Creator The final portion turns fully toward Reverend Blake's spiritual teachings. He presents his belief that human beings are co-creator gods in the making, moving through reincarnation across planets and lives toward eventual spiritual creation and union. He rejects eternal damnation, describing hell as temporary spiritual rehabilitation, and speaks intensely about suicide, prayer for souls, universal law, and the power of praying for others. The episode closes with Blake teaching that “a man will prey on man until man learns to pray for man,” then offering a prayer directly to the Creator of the universe, asking for blessing, help, love, and divine will for all children of Earth.

Welcome to this week's Farmer Rapid Fire on RealAg Radio, brought to you by Corteva Crop Protection and hosted by Shaun Haney! 00:00 - Coming up... 01:47 - Scott Douglas of Leamington, Ont. 14:15 - Sukhpaul Bal of Kelowna, B.C. 26:21 - Landon Friesen of Crystal City, Man. 37:53 - Mark Burnham of Cobourg, Ont.... Read More

Welcome to this week's Farmer Rapid Fire on RealAg Radio, brought to you by Corteva Crop Protection and hosted by Shaun Haney! 00:00 - Coming up... 01:47 - Scott Douglas of Leamington, Ont. 14:15 - Sukhpaul Bal of Kelowna, B.C. 26:21 - Landon Friesen of Crystal City, Man. 37:53 - Mark Burnham of Cobourg, Ont.... Read More

A multilevel parking garage in Crystal City, Virginia transformed into a bike racing course this February for the annual Garage Racing National Championships. According to one participant, “This is like racing in the rain on painted surfaces. It's fast... it's furious…it's chaotic. It's more fun than we should be allowed to have.”

Sources suggest the Environmental Protection Agency is expected to submit proposed biofuel blending quotas to the White House this week. The Trump administration hopes to finalize the measures by the end of March. Health and environmental groups are posing a legal challenge to the EPA's recission of the endangerment finding. The USDA's 102nd Outlook Forum begins tomorrow in Crystal City. 

Layne and Jon see a new side to Thundercracker in part 3 of International Incident in The Transformers 11 and then find out what the new Crystal City is all about in Transformers: Drift 2, both from IDW in 2010!

Layne and Jon see a new side to Thundercracker in part 3 of International Incident in The Transformers 11 and then find out what the new Crystal City is all about in Transformers: Drift 2, both from IDW in 2010!

Dare To Dream with Debbi Dachinger DANNION BRINKLEY: 28 Minutes Dead. What He Learned in Crystal City About Humanity's Purpose! Understanding Human Purpose! Dannion Brinkley joins Debbi Dachinger for a profound and life-altering conversation on near-death experiences, human destiny, and the evolution of consciousness. In this episode, Dannion shares what he learned after surviving three near-death experiences, beginning with a lightning strike in 1975 that stopped his heart for 28 minutes. During that crossing, he entered a vast Crystal City and encountered angelic beings who revealed humanity's purpose, the mechanics of the life review, and prophetic visions of Earth's future. Drawing from nearly 50 years of service with the dying and veterans at the end of life, Dannion explains why death is not an ending — and how every choice we make ripples across lifetimes. If you've ever wondered why you're here, what happens when we die, or how consciousness survives the body — this episode will change how you understand life itself. TIMESTAMPS 0:00 – Introduction: Dannion Brinkley and crossing the veil 4:45 – The lightning strike that stopped his heart for 28 minutes 11:30 – Entering the tunnel of light and the Crystal City 18:10 – Angelic beings and revelations about humanity's purpose 26:40 – The life review and how every choice ripples across lifetimes 34:55 – Why fear dissolves after death 41:20 – Serving the dying and guiding veterans through transition 48:10 – Prophetic visions of humanity's future 55:35 – What consciousness is preparing us for now 1:02:10 – Closing reflections on living with courage and clarity Guest: Dannion Brinkley Dannion Brinkley is a bestselling author, spiritual messenger, and survivor of three near-death experiences. For decades, he has worked with the dying and veterans, sharing insights from his journeys beyond the body that illuminate human purpose, consciousness, and the continuity of the soul. https://dannion.com/ #DannionBrinkley #neardeathexperience #nde #SavedByTheLight #consciousness #lifeafterdeath #spiritualawakening #soulmission #crystalcity #HumanDestiny #daretodreampodcast #debbidachinger #veteran

A rare 50-year perspective on NDEs, prophecy, and the spiritual evolution of humanity. Podcast Highlights1) Dannion is the survivor of three near-death experiences2) What angelic beings revealed about humanity's purpose, and prophetic visions of our future?3) The spiritual technology that transformed him?4) How every choice we make ripples across lifetimes 

Welcome to today’s edition of the Farmer Rapid Fire on RealAg Radio brought to you by Pioneer Seeds! Jeff Harrison of Quinte West, Ont.; Landon Friesen of Crystal City, Man.; Mike Beckie of Davidson, Sask.; Chad Beagle of Rimbey, Alta.; Pioneer agronomist Rebecca-Jo Cellini based out of Fergus, Ont. Plus, don't miss the RealAg Radio... Read More

Welcome to today’s edition of the Farmer Rapid Fire on RealAg Radio brought to you by Pioneer Seeds! Jeff Harrison of Quinte West, Ont.; Landon Friesen of Crystal City, Man.; Mike Beckie of Davidson, Sask.; Chad Beagle of Rimbey, Alta.; Pioneer agronomist Rebecca-Jo Cellini based out of Fergus, Ont. Plus, don't miss the RealAg Radio... Read More

It's August 5th. This day in 1944, a crucial moment in World War II history, a series of internment camps are being set up in Texas. Unlike the more widely known camps on the US West Coast, these camps held not only Japanese Americans but also individuals of Japanese, German, and Italian descent from Latin America, who were deported to this country.Jody, Niki, and Kellie discuss why the US was bringing people into the country just to put them behind fences; what life was like inside Crystal City; and why this story has been largely forgotten.Don't forget to sign up for our America250 Watch newsletter, where you'll also get links and lots more historical tidbits.https://thisdaypod.substack.com/Find out more about the show at thisdaypod.comThis Day In Esoteric Political History is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX.Your support helps foster independent, artist-owned podcasts and award-winning stories.If you want to support the show directly, you can do so on our website: ThisDayPod.comGet in touch if you have any ideas for future topics, or just want to say hello. Follow us on social @thisdaypodOur team: Jacob Feldman, Researcher/Producer; Brittani Brown, Producer; Khawla Nakua, Transcripts; music by Teen Daze and Blue Dot Sessions; Audrey Mardavich is our Executive Producer at Radiotopia Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

Canada's position on supply management could trigger a further escalation of trade tensions between Canada and the U.S. Florian Possberg, a partner with Polar Pork, says hope of reaching a trade deal between Canada and the United States are dwindling.Agriculture Innovation Awards were presented at Western Canada's largest outdoor farm show Ag in Motion.The Innovation Award for Ag Tech went to Phiber Manufacturing of Crystal City, Manitoba for its DASH drone carrier. Steve Froese is Phiber's Director of Sales and he talks about what is unique about the drone carrier.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

To justify mass deportations, President Trump has invoked an old wartime law: the Alien Enemies Act of 1798.   The Alien Enemies Act was last used after America's entry into World War II. In response to the Axis countries' detainment of Americans who were deemed potential spies, the Roosevelt Administration came up with an elaborate plan: find and arrest Germans, Japanese and Italians living in Latin America and detain them in camps in the U.S.  The government would use them to exchange for American prisoners of war.Liked this story? Find photos and more at radiodiaries.org. You can also support our work by going to radiodiaries.org /donate. Follow us on X and Instagram @radiodiaries.  Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

In honor of Mental Health Awareness Month, we bring you an episode from Inheriting Season One. Inheriting is a show about Asian American and Pacific Islander families, which explores how one event in history can ripple through generations. Leah Bash is an avid runner, a dog mom, a wife – and there’s a part of her family’s history she can’t stop thinking about. The fact that both sides of her family were incarcerated alongside 125,000 other Japanese Americans during World War II. Her father and his six siblings spent more than three years behind barbed wire at isolated camps in Manzanar, California and Crystal City, Texas. After Leah learns about her father’s struggles with panic attacks and is herself diagnosed with bipolar disorder, she starts to wonder: could those experiences at camp during World War II have far-reaching consequences a generation later?

Send us a textRemember the Amazon HQ2 frenzy? When nearly every U.S. state competed to become Amazon's next home, offering billions in tax breaks and incentives? I do — I grew up right next door to Crystal City, Virginia, the site Amazon ultimately chose.In this episode, I talk with economist Peter Calcagno about targeted economic incentives—the controversial policy tool that fueled the Amazon HQ2 bidding war and countless other corporate deals.We explore questions like:What are targeted incentives?Do they actually create economic development and job growth?Why do politicians favor targeted incentives over other tools?Who wins—and who loses—when states compete this way?Peter Calcagno is a professor of economics at the College of Charleston and director of the Center for Public Choice and Market Process. He's also a fellow at the American Institute for Economic Research, where he studies public choice theory and fiscal policy.If you've ever wondered whether government subsidies for big business pay off—or if they just create unfair advantages—this conversation is for you.Want to explore more?Peter Calcagno, Follow the Money, at EconLog.Russell Sobel, Who Really Gains from Billions in Economic Development Incentives? at Econlib.Lauren Heller, Prosperity Without a Price Tag, at EconlibRandy Simmons on Public Choice, a Great Antidote podcast.Art Carden, From Here to Serenity: How Public Choice Makes Me Less Cynical, at Econlib.Support the showNever miss another AdamSmithWorks update.Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.

Thanks for tuning in to this Thursday edition of RealAg Radio for the Farmer Rapid Fire, brought to you by Corteva Biologicals. Host Shaun Haney checks in with: Ryan Barrett of Kensington, PEI.; Jeff Harrison of Quinte West, Ont.; Landon Friesen of Crystal City, Man.; and, Mike Beckie of Davidson, Sask. Also hear from Tammy... Read More

Jon Turner, Assoc Professor Dept of Counseling, Leadership & Special Education at Missouri State University, joins Megan Lynch as voters in Crystal City's school district approved keeping a 4-day week by a margin of 86% to 14%. This is the first local district required to allow voters to 'approve' keeping the 4-day schedule.

Episode 162 Chapter 23, Radiophonic Music in the United Kingdom. Works Recommended from my book, Electronic and Experimental Music  This episode of the podcast is produced as a companion to my book, Electronic and Experimental Music, published by Routledge. Each of these episodes corresponds to a chapter in the text and an associated list of recommended works, also called Listen in the text. They provide listening examples of vintage electronic works featured in the text. The works themselves can be enjoyed without the book and I hope that they stand as a chronological survey of important works in the history of electronic music. Be sure to tune-in to other episodes of the podcast where we explore a wide range of electronic music in many styles and genres, all drawn from my archive of vintage recordings. There is a complete playlist for this episode on the website for the podcast. Let's get started with the listening guide to Chapter 23, Radiophonic Music in the United Kingdom from my book Electronic and Experimental music.   Playlist: RADIOPHONIC MUSIC IN THE UNITED KINGDOM   Time Track Time Start Introduction –Thom Holmes 01:36 00:00 1.     Daphne Oram, “Introduction to Oramics” (1960). Introduction to her Oramics studio and processes for making electronic music. Voice and musical examples by Daphne Oram, recorded in her home studio Tower Folly, Kent. 04:37 01:38 2.     Daphne Oram, “Four Aspects” (1960). Tape composition by Daphne Oram recorded in her home studio Tower Folly, Kent. 08:07 06:14 3.     Delia Derbyshire, “Doctor Who Theme” (Closing Credits) (1962). The most famous version of this theme for the popular television program, composed by Ron Grainer and realized by Derbyshire at the BBC studios. 02:23 14:20 4.     Ray Cathode (George Martin), “Time Beat” (1962). Produced at the BBC Radiophonic Workshop. Written and produced by George Martin, around the time when he was starting his production work with The Beatles. 02:11 16:40 5.     Ray Cathode (George Martin), “Waltz in Orbit” (1962). Produced at the BBC Radiophonic Workshop. Written and produced by George Martin, around the time when he was starting his production work with The Beatles. 01:52 18:52 6.     Daphne Oram, “Costain Suite” (1964). Tape composition by Daphne Oram recorded in her home studio Tower Folly, Kent. 13:17 20:44 7.     Delia Derbyshire, “Running” (1964). One of the seven parts from the “radio inventions” called "The Dreams," first broadcast on the BBC Third Programme, Sunday 5th January 1964. 08:08 34:02 8.     Delia Derbyshire, “Falling” (1964). One of the seven parts from the “radio inventions” called "The Dreams," first broadcast on the BBC Third Programme, Sunday 5th January 1964. 08:45 42:08 9.     Delia Derbyshire, “Land” (1964). One of the seven parts from the “radio inventions” called "The Dreams," first broadcast on the BBC Third Programme, Sunday 5th January 1964. 07:02 50:54 10.   Daphne Oram, “Pulse Persephone” (1965). Tape composition by Daphne Oram recorded in her home studio Tower Folly, Kent. 04:03 58:06 11.   Tristram Cary, “Sputnik Code” (1968). Cary was a British composer and pioneer of electronic music. He composed this work for a movie soundtrack. 01:50 01:02:08 12.   Lily Greenham, “ABC in Sound” (1968). Early tape work by this pioneer of electronic music in the UK. Greenham was an Austrian-born Danish visual artist, performer, composer and leading proponent of sound poetry and concrete poetry. She settled in London. 02:39 01:04:02 13.   White Noise (Delia Derbyshire, David Vorhaus, Brian Hodgson), “The Black Mass: An Electric Storm In Hell (The White Noise)” (1969). Experimental electronic music project established in London in 1968, originally as a group project between David Vorhaus and BBC Radiophonic Workshop members Delia Derbyshire and Brian Hodgson. Vocals by Annie Bird, John Whitman, Val Shaw. 07:20 01:06:40 14.   White Noise (Delia Derbyshire, David Vorhaus, Brian Hodgson), “Your Hidden Dreams” (1969). Experimental electronic music project established in London in 1968, originally as a group project between David Vorhaus and BBC Radiophonic Workshop members Delia Derbyshire and Brian Hodgson. Vocals by Annie Bird, John Whitman, Val Shaw. 04:55 01:13:58 15.   White Noise (Delia Derbyshire, David Vorhaus, Brian Hodgson), “Love Without Sound” (1969). Experimental electronic music project established in London in 1968, originally as a group project between David Vorhaus and BBC Radiophonic Workshop members Delia Derbyshire and Brian Hodgson. Vocals by Annie Bird, John Whitman, Val Shaw. 03:07 01:18:52 16.   Electrophon (Brian Hodgson, Dudley Simpson), “Arrival of the Queen of Sheba” (Händel) (1973). Electronic interpretations of classical music for various synthesizers. 03:04 01:22:00 17.   Paddy Kingsland, “Fourth Dimension” (1973). Produced by Kingsland for the BBC Radiophonic Workshop. “The synthesisers used on this disc are both British, and both made by E.M.S. of London. They are the VCS3, an amazingly versatile miniature synthesiser, and its big brother, the Synthi '100', known within the Radiophonic Workshop as 'The Delaware', after the address of the Workshop.” 02:19 01:25:02 18.   Lily Greenham, “Traffic” (1975). Realized at the Electronic Music Studio, Goldsmiths' College, University of London. Technical Assistance, Hugh Davies. 10:33 01:27:18 19.   White Noise (David Vorhaus), “Concerto Movement 1” (1975). Used what Vorhaus called the Kaleidophon Synthesizer that included two EMS VCS 3's connected via a console of electronic modules he designed. 11:33 01:37:50 20.   Delia Derbyshire, “Dreaming” (1976). Produced for the BBC Radiophonic Workshop as a work to accompany a television program. 01:13 01:49:18 21.   Glynis Jones, “Crystal City” (1976). Produced for the BBC Radiophonic Workshop as a work to accompany a television program. 01:01 01:50:30 22.   Glynis Jones, “Magic Carpet” (1976). Includes three shorts works, Magic Carpet Take-Off, Magic Carpet Flight and Magic Carpet Land. Produced for the BBC Radiophonic Workshop as sound effects. 00:50 01:51:30 23.   Brian Hodgson, “Tardis Land” (1976). Produced for the BBC Radiophonic Workshop as a sound effect. 00:23 01:52:22   Additional opening, closing, and other incidental music by Thom Holmes. My Books/eBooks: Electronic and Experimental Music, sixth edition, Routledge 2020. Also, Sound Art: Concepts and Practices, first edition, Routledge 2022. See my companion blog that I write for the Bob Moog Foundation. For a transcript, please see my blog, Noise and Notations. Original music by Thom Holmes can be found on iTunes and Bandcamp.

Join host Andrew Stotz for a lively conversation with Cliff Norman and Dave Williams, two of the authors of "Quality as an Organizational Strategy." They share stories of Dr. Deming, insights from working with businesses over the years, and the five activities the book is based on. TRANSCRIPT 0:00:02.2 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz, and I'll be your host as we dive deeper into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today, we have a fantastic opportunity to learn more about a recent book that's been published called "Quality as an Organizational Strategy". And I'd like to welcome Cliff Norman and Dave Williams on the show, two of the three authors. Welcome, guys.   0:00:27.1 Cliff Norman: Thank you. Glad to be here.   0:00:29.4 Dave Williams: Yeah, thanks for having us.   0:00:31.9 Andrew Stotz: Yeah, I've been looking forward to this for a while. I was on LinkedIn originally, and somebody posted it. I don't remember who, the book came out. And I immediately ordered it because I thought to myself, wait, wait, wait a minute. This plugs a gap. And I just wanna start off by going back to Dr. Deming's first Point, which was create constancy of purpose towards improvement of product and service with the aim to become competitive and stay in business and to provide jobs. And all along, as anybody that learned the 14 Points, they knew that this was the concept of the strategy is to continue to improve the product and service in the eyes of the client and in your business. But there was a lot missing. And I felt like your book has started really to fill that gap. So maybe I'll ask Cliff, if you could just explain kind of where does this book come from and why are you bringing it out now?   0:01:34.5 Cliff Norman: That's a really good question, Andrew. The book was originally for the use of both our clients only. So it came into being, the ideas came out of the Deming four day seminar where Dr. Tom Nolan, Ron Moen and Lloyd Provost, Jerry Langley would be working with Dr. Deming. And then at the end of four days, the people who some of who are our clients would come up to us and said, he gave us the theory, but we don't have any methods. And so they took it very seriously and took Dr. Deming's idea of production viewed as a system. And from that, they developed the methods that we're going to discuss called the five activities. And all of our work with this was completely behind the wall of our clients. We didn't advertise. So the only people who became clients were people who would seek us out. So this has been behind the stage since about 1990. And the reason to bring it out now is to make it available beyond our client base. And Dave, I want you to go ahead and add to that because you're the ones that insisted that this get done. So add to that if you would.   [laughter]   0:02:53.0 Dave Williams: Well, thanks, Cliff. Actually, I often joke at Cliff. So one thing to know, Cliff and Lloyd and I all had a home base of Austin, Texas. And I met them about 15 years ago when I was in my own journey of, I had been a chief quality officer of an ambulance system and was interested in much of the work that API, Associates of Process Improvement, had been doing with folks in the healthcare sector. And I reached out to Cliff and Lloyd because they were in Austin and they were kind enough, as they have been over many years, to welcome me to have coffee and talk about what I was trying to learn and where my interests were and to learn from their work. And over the last 15 years, I've had a great benefit of learning from the experience and methods that API has been using with organizations around the world, built on the shoulders of the theories from Dr. Deming. And one of those that was in the Improvement Guide, one of the foundational texts that we use a lot in improvement project work that API wrote was, if you go into the back, there is a chapter, and Cliff, correct me if I'm wrong, I think it's chapter 13 in this current edition on creating value.   0:04:34.3 Dave Williams: In there, there was some description of kind of a structure or a system of activities that would be used to pursue qualities and organizational strategy. I later learned that this was built on a guide that was used that had been sort of semi self-published to be able to use with clients. And the more that I dove into it, the more that I really valued the way in which it had been framed, but also how, as you mentioned at the start, it provided methods in a place where I felt like there was a gap in what I saw in organizations that I was working with or that I had been involved in. And so back in 2020, when things were shut down initially during the beginning of the pandemic, I approached Lloyd and Cliff and I said, I'd love to help in any way that I can to try to bring this work forward and modernize it. And I say modernize it, not necessarily in terms of changing it, but updating the material from its last update into today's context and examples and make it available for folks through traditional bookstores and other venues.   0:05:58.9 Andrew Stotz: And I have that The Improvement Guide, which is also a very impressive book that helps us to think about how are we improving. And as you said, the, that chapter that you were talking about, 13, I believe it was, yeah, making the improvement of value a business strategy and talking about that. So, Cliff, could you just go back in time for those people that don't know you in the Deming world, I'm sure most people do, but for those people that don't know, maybe you could just talk about your first interactions with Dr. Deming and the teachings of that and what sparked your interest and also what made you think, okay, I wanna keep expanding on this.   0:06:40.0 Cliff Norman: Yeah. So I was raised in Southern California and of course, like many others, I'm rather horrified by what's going on out there right now with fires. That's an area I was raised in. And so I moved to Texas in '79, went to work for Halliburton. And they had an NBC White Paper called, "If Japan Can, Why Can't We?", and our CEO, Mr. Purvis Thrash, he saw that. And I was working in the quality area at that time. And he asked me to go to one of Deming's seminars that was held in Crystal City, actually February of 1982. And I got down there early and got a place up front. And they sent along with me an RD manager to keep an eye on me, 'cause I was newly from California into Texas. And so anyway, we're both sitting there. And so I forgot something. So I ran up stairs in the Sheraton Crystal City Hotel there. And I was coming down and lo and behold, next floor down, Dr. Deming gets on and two ladies are holding him up. And they get in the elevator there and he sees this George Washington University badge and he kind of comes over, even while the elevator was going down and picks it up and looks it up real close to his face. And then he just backs up and leans, holds onto the railing and he says, Mr. Norman, what I'm getting ready to tell you today will haunt you for the rest of your life.   0:08:11.8 Cliff Norman: And that came true. And of course, I was 29 at the time and was a certified quality engineer and knew all things about the science of quality. And I couldn't imagine what he would tell me that would haunt me for the rest of my life, but it did. And then the next thing he told me, he said, as young as you are, if you're not learning from somebody that you're working for, you ought to think about getting a new boss. And that's some of the best advice I've ever gotten. I mean, the hanging around smart people is a great thing to do. And I've been gifted with that with API. And so that's how I met him. And then, of course, when I joined API, I ended up going to several seminars to support Lloyd Provost and Tom Nolan and Ron Moen and Jerry as the various seminars were given. And Ron Moen, who unfortunately passed away about three years ago, he did 88 of those four day seminars, and he was just like a walking encyclopedia for me. So anytime I had questions on Deming, I could just, he's a phone call away, and I truly miss that right now.   0:09:20.5 Cliff Norman: So when Dave has questions or where this reference come from or whatever, and I got to go do a lot of work, where Ron, he could just recall that for me. So I miss that desperately, but we were busy at that time, by the time I joined API was in '88. And right away, I was introduced to what they had drafted out in terms of the five activities, which is the foundation of the book, along with understanding the science of improvement and the chain reaction that Dr. Deming introduced us to. So the science of improvement is what Dr. Deming called the System of Profound Knowledge. So I was already introduced to all that and was applying that within Halliburton. But QBS, as we called it then, Qualities of Business Strategy was brand new. I mean, it was hot off the press. And right away, I took it and started working with my clients with it. And we were literally walking on the bridge as we were building it. And the lady I'm married to right now, Jane Norman, she was working at Conagra, which is like a $15 billion poultry company that's part of Conagra overall, which is most of the food in your grocery store, about 75% of it. And she did one of the first system linkages that we ever did.   0:10:44.5 Cliff Norman: And since then, she's worked at like four other companies as a VP or COO, and has always applied these ideas. And so a lot of this in the book examples and so forth, comes from her actual application work. And when we'd worked together, she had often introduced me, this is my husband, Cliff, he and his partners, they write books, but some of us actually have to go to work. And then eventually she wrote a book with me with Dr. Maccabee, who is also very closely associated with Dr. Deming. So now she's a co-author. So I was hoping that would stop that, but again, we depend on her for a lot of the examples and contributions and the rest of it that show up in the book. So I hope that answers your question.   0:11:28.2 Andrew Stotz: Yeah, and for people like myself and some of our listeners who have heard Dr. Deming speak and really gotten into his teachings, it makes sense, this is going to haunt you because I always say that, what I read originally... I was 24 when I went to my first Deming seminar. And I went to two two-day seminars and it... My brain was open, I was ready, I didn't have anything really in it about, any fixed methods or anything. So, for me, it just blew my mind, some of the things that he was talking about, like thinking about things in a system I didn't think about that I thought that the way we got to do is narrow things down and get this really tight focus and many other things that I heard. And also as a young, young guy, I was in this room with, I don't know, 500 older gentlemen and ladies, and I sat in the front row and so I would see him kind of call them on the carpet and I would be looking back like, oh, wow, I never saw anybody talk to senior management like that and I was kind of surprised. But for those people that really haven't had any of that experience they're new to Deming, what is it that haunts you? What is... Can you describe what he meant when he was saying that?   0:12:42.9 Cliff Norman: I gotta just add to what you just said because it's such a profound experience. And when you're 29, if most of us, we think we're pretty good shape by that time, the brain's fully developed by age 25, judgment being the last function that develops. And so you're pretty well on your way and then to walk in and have somebody who's 81 years old, start introducing you to things you've never even thought about. The idea of the Chain Reaction that what I was taught as a certified quality engineer through ASQ is I need to do enough inspection, but I didn't need to do too much 'cause I didn't want to raise costs too much. And Dr. Deming brought me up on stage and he said, well, show me that card again. So I had a 105D card, it's up to G now or something. And he said, "well, how does this work?" And I said, "well, it tells me how many samples I got to get." And he says, "you know who invented that." And I said, "no, sir, I thought God did." He said, "no, I know the people that did it. They did it to put people like you out of business. Sit down, young man, you've got a lot to learn." And I thought, wow, and here you are in front of 500 people and this is a public flogging by any stretch.   0:13:56.1 Cliff Norman: And it just went on from there. And so a few years later, I'm up in Valley Forge and I'm working at a class with Lloyd and Tom Nolan and a guy named, I never met before named Jim Imboden. And he's just knock-down brilliant, but they're all working at General Motors at that time. And a lot of the book "Planned Experimentation" came out of their work at Ford and GM and Pontiac and the rest of it. And I mean, it's just an amazing contribution, but I go to dinner with Jim that night. And Jim looks at me across the table and he says, Cliff, how did you feel the day you found out you didn't know anything about business economics or anything else? I said, "you mean the first day of the Deming seminar?" He said, "that's what I'm talking about." And that just... That's how profound that experience is. Because all of a sudden you find out you can improve quality and lower costs at the same time. I'm sorry, most people weren't taught that. They certainly weren't taught that in business school. And so it was a whole transformation in thinking and just the idea of a system. Most of what's going on in the system is related to the system and the way it's constructed. And unfortunately, for most organizations, it's hidden.   0:15:04.2 Cliff Norman: They don't even see it. So when things happen, the first thing that happens is the blame flame. I had a VP I worked for and he'd pulled out his org chart when something went bad and he'd circle. He said, this is old Earl's bailiwick right here. So Cliff, go over and see Earl and I want you to straighten him out. Well, that's how most of it runs. And so the blame flame just takes off. And if you pull the systems map out there and if he had to circle where it showed up, he'd see there were a lot of friends around that that were contributing. And we start to understand the complexity of the issue. But without that view, and Deming insisted on, then you're back to the blame flame.   0:15:45.1 Andrew Stotz: Yeah. And Dave, I see a lot of books on the back on your shelf there about quality and productivity and team and many different things. But maybe you could give us a little background on kind of how how you, besides how you got onto this project and all that. But just where did you come from originally and how did you stumble into the Deming world?   0:16:08.9 Dave Williams: Sure. Well, sadly, I didn't have the pleasure of getting to sit in on a four-day workshop. Deming died in 1993. And at that time, I was working on an ambulance as a street paramedic and going to college to study ambulance system design and how to manage ambulance systems, which was a part of public safety that had sort of grown, especially in the United States in the '60s. And by the time I was joining, it was about 30 years into becoming more of a formalized profession. And I found my way to Austin, Texas, trying to find one of the more professionalized systems to work in and was, worked here as a paramedic for a few years. And then decided I wanted to learn more and started a graduate program. And one of the courses that was taught in the graduate program, this is a graduate program on ambulance management, was on quality. And it was taught by a gentleman who had written a, a guide for ambulance leaders in the United States that was based on the principles and methods of quality that was happening at this time. And it pieced together a number of different common tools and methods like Pareto charts and cause-and-effect diagrams and things like that.   0:17:33.1 Dave Williams: And it mentioned the different leaders like Deming and Juran and Crosby and others. And so that was my first exposure to many of these ideas. And because I was studying a particular type of healthcare delivery system and I was a person who was practicing within it and I was learning about these ideas that the way that you improve a system or make improvement is by changing the system. I was really intrigued and it just worked out at the time. One of the first roles, leadership roles that emerged in my organization was to be the Chief Quality Officer for the organization. And at the time, there were 20 applicants within my organization, but I was the only one that knew anything about any of the foundations of quality improvements. Everybody else applied and showed their understanding of quality from a lived experience perspective or what their own personal definitions of quality were, which was mostly around inspection and quality assurance. I had, and this won't surprise Cliff, but I had a nerdy response that was loaded with references and came from all these different things that I had been exposed to. And they took a chance on me because I was the only one that seemed to have some sense of the background. And I started working and doing...   0:19:10.1 Dave Williams: Improvement within this ambulance system as the kind of the dedicated leader who was supposed to make these changes. And I think one of the things that I learned really quickly is that frequently how improvement efforts were brought to my attention was because there was a problem that I, had been identified, a failure or an error usually attributed to an individual as Cliff pointed out, somebody did something and they were the unfortunate person who happened to kind of raise this issue to others. And if I investigated it all, I often found that there were 20 other people that made the same error, but he was, he or she was the only one that got caught. And so therefore they were called to my office to confess. And when I started to study and look at these different issues, every time I looked at something even though I might be able to attribute the, first instance to a person, I found 20 or more instances where the system would've allowed or did allow somebody else to make a similar error.   0:20:12.6 Dave Williams: We just didn't find it. And it got... And it became somewhat fascinating to me because my colleagues were very much from a, if you work hard and just do your job and just follow the policy then good quality will occur. And nobody seemed to spend any time trying to figure out how to create systems that produce good results or figure out how to look at a system and change it and get better results. And so most of my experience was coming from these, when something bubbled up, I would then get it, and then I'd use some systems thinking and some methods and all of a sudden unpack that there was a lot of variation going on and a lot of errors that could happen, and that the system was built to get results worse than we even knew.   0:21:00.7 Dave Williams: And it was through that journey that I ended up actually becoming involved with the Institute for Healthcare Improvement and learning about what was being done in the healthcare sector, which API at the time were the key advisors to Dr. Don Berwick and the leadership at IHI. And so much of the methodology was there. And actually, that's how I found my way to Cliff. I happened to be at a conference for the Institute for Healthcare Improvement, and there was an advertisement for a program called the Improvement Advisor Professional Development Program, which was an improvement like practitioner project level program that had been developed by API that had been adapted to IHI, and I noticed that Cliff and Lloyd were the faculty, and that they were in my hometown. And that's how I reached out to them and said, hey can we have coffee? And Cliff said, yes. And so...   0:21:53.1 Andrew Stotz: And what was that, what year was that roughly?   0:22:00.3 Dave Williams: That would've been back in 2002 or 2003, somewhere in that vicinity.   0:22:02.0 Andrew Stotz: Hmm. Okay.   0:22:06.8 Dave Williams: Maybe a little bit later.   0:22:06.9 Andrew Stotz: I just for those people that are new to the topic and listening in I always give an example. When I worked at Pepsi... I graduated in 1989 from university with a degree in finance. And I went to work at Pepsi in manufacturing and warehouse in Los Angeles at the Torrance Factory originally, and then in Buena Park. But I remember that my boss told me, he saw that I could work computers at that time, and so I was making charts and graphs just for fun to look at stuff. And he said, yeah, you should go to a one of these Deming seminars. And so he sent me to the one in... At George Washington University back in 1990, I think it was. And but what was happening is we had about a hundred trucks we wanted to get out through a particular gate that we had every single morning. And the longer it took to get those trucks out the longer they're gonna be on LA traffic and on LA roads, so if we can get 'em out at 5:00 AM, fantastic. If we get 'em out at 7:00, we're in trouble. And so they asked me to look at this and I did a lot of studying of it and I was coming for like 4:00 in the morning I'd go up to the roof of the building and I'd look down and watch what was happening. And then finally I'd interview everybody. And then finally the truck drivers just said, look, the loaders mess it up so I gotta open my truck every morning and count everything on it. And I thought, oh, okay.   0:23:23.7 Andrew Stotz: So I'll go to the loaders. And I go, why are you guys messing this up? And then the loaders was like, I didn't mess it up. We didn't have the production run because the production people changed the schedule, and so we didn't have what the guy needed. And so, and oh, yeah, there was a mistake because the production people put the product in the wrong spot, and therefore, I got confused and I put the wrong stuff on by accident. And then I went to the production people and they said, well, no, it's not us. It's the salespeople. They keep putting all this pressure on us to put this through right now, and it's messing up our whole system. And that was the first time in my life where I realized, okay, it's a system. There's interconnected parts here that are interacting, and I had to go back into the system to fix, but the end result was I was able to get a hundred trucks through this gate in about 45 minutes instead of two hours, what we had done before.   0:24:18.8 Andrew Stotz: But it required a huge amount of work of going back and looking at the whole system. So the idea of looking at the science of improvement, as you mentioned, and the System of Profound Knowledge, it's... There's a whole process. Now, I wanna ask the question for the person who gets this book and they dig into it, it's not a small book. I've written some books, but all of 'em are small because I'm just, maybe I just can't get to this point. But this book is a big book, and it's got about 300... More than 300 pages. What's the promise? What are they gonna get from digging into this book? What are they gonna take away? What are they gonna be able to bring to their life and their business that they couldn't have done without really going deeper into this material?   0:24:57.7 Cliff Norman: Dave, go ahead.   0:25:01.4 Dave Williams: Well, I was gonna joke by saying they're gonna get hard work and only half because this is just the theory in the book and many of the... And sort of examples of the method. But we're in the process of preparing a field guide which is a much deeper companion guide loaded with exercises and examples of and more of the methods. So the original guide that that API had developed was actually about an eight... Well, I don't know how many pages it was, but it was a thick three inch binder. This, what you have there is us refining the content part that explains the theory and kind of gets you going. And then we moved all of the exercises and things to the field guide for people that really wanna get serious about it.   0:26:00.3 Dave Williams: And the reason I say hard work is that the one thing that you won't get, and you should probably pass it if this book if you're on Amazon, is you're not gonna get an easy answer. This is, as a matter of fact, one of the things that emerged in our early conversations about was this project worth it? Is to say that this is hard work. It's work that a very few number of leaders who or leadership teams that really want to learn and work hard and get results are gonna embark on. But for those, and many of our clients, I think are representative of that, of those people that say, gosh, I've been working really hard, and I feel like we could do better. I feel like I could make a bigger impact, or I could serve more customers or clients.   0:26:44.0 Dave Williams: And but I am... And I'm in intrigued or inspired or gotten to a certain point with improvement science on my own, but I want to figure out how to be more systematic and more global and holistic at that approach. Then that's what QOS is about. It builds on the shoulders of the other books that you mentioned, like The Improvement Guide which we talked about as being a great book about improvement, and improvement specifically in the context of a project. And other books like The Healthcare Data Guide and the Planned Experimentation, which are also about methods, healthcare Data Guide being about Shewhart charts, and Planned Experimentation being about factorial design. This book is about taking what Cliff described earlier as that... I always say it's that that diagram that people put on a slide and never talk about from Deming of production views as a system and saying, well, how would we do this if this is the model for adopting quality as strategy, what are the methods that help us to do this?   0:28:01.3 Dave Williams: And this book breaks that down into five activities that are built on the shoulders of profound knowledge, built on the shoulders of the science of improvement and provide a structure to be able to initially develop a system, a systems view of your organization, and then build on that by using that system to continually operate and improve that organization over time. So the book describes the activities. The book describes some of the things that go into getting started, including being becoming good at doing results-driven improvement, building a learning system, focusing in on the things that matter to your organization. And then working towards building the structure that you can improve upon. The book creates that foundation. It provides examples from clients and from people that we've worked with so that you can see what the theory looks like in practice get, kind of get a flavor for that. And we hope it builds on the shoulders of other work that I mentioned in the other books that compliment it and provides a starting point for teams that are interested in taking that journey.   0:29:26.5 Andrew Stotz: And Cliff, from your perspective, if somebody had no, I mean, I think, I think the Deming community's gonna really dive in and they're gonna know a lot of this stuff, but is gonna help them take it to the next level. But for someone who never had any real experience with Deming or anything like that, and they stumble upon this interview, this discussion, they hear about this book, can they get started right away with what's in this book? Or do they have to go back to foundations?   0:29:49.6 Cliff Norman: No, I think that can definitely get started. There's a lot of learning as you know, Andrew, from going through the four-day to understand things. And I think we've done a pretty good job of integrating what Dr. Deming taught us, as well as going with the methods. And one of the things people would tell him in his four-day seminars is, Dr. Deming, you've given us the theory, but we have no method here. And he said, well, if I have to give you the method, then you'll have to send me your check too. So he expected us to be smart enough to develop the methods. And the API folks did a really good job of translating that into what we call the five activities. So those five activities are to understand the purpose of the organization.   0:30:35.6 Cliff Norman: And a lot of people when they write a purpose, they'll put something up there but it's usually we love all our people. We love our customers even more. If only they didn't spend so much, and we'll come out with something like that and there'll be some pablum that they'll throw up on the wall. Well, this actually has some structure to it to get to Deming's ideas. And the first thing is let's try to understand what business we're in and what need we're serving in society that drives customers to us. So that word is used not need coming from customers, but what is it that drives them to us so we can understand that? And then the second part of that purpose needs to define the mainstay, the core processes, the delivery systems that relate directly to customers. And just those two ideas alone, just in the first activity of purpose, most people haven't thought about those ideas.   0:31:27.8 Cliff Norman: And can somebody pick up this book and do that? Yes. And that will answer a big challenge from Dr. Deming. Most people don't even know what business they're in, haven't even thought about it. And so that we... That question gets answered here, I think, very thoroughly. In this second activity, which is viewing the organization as a system contains two components that's viewing the organization as a system. And that's difficult to do, and a lot of people really don't see the need for it. Jane Norman reminded Dave and I on a call we did last week, that when you talk about a systems map with people, just ask 'em how do they know what's going on inside other organizations, other departments within their organization? How do they know that? And most of us are so siloed.   0:32:11.2 Cliff Norman: Somebody over here is doing the best job they can in department X, and meanwhile, department Y doesn't know anything about it. And then three months later the improvement shows up and all of a sudden there's problems now in department Y. Well, somebody who's focused on the organization as a system and sees how those processes are related when somebody comes to a management meeting said, well, we've just made a change here, and this is gonna show up over here in about three months, and you need to be prepared for that. Andrew, that conversation never takes place. So the idea of having the systems map and this book can help you get started on that. The second book that Dave was just talking about, there are more replete examples in there. I mean, we've got six case studies from clients in there than the practitioners and people who actually are gonna be doing this work.   0:33:01.7 Cliff Norman: That's gonna be absolutely... They're gonna need that field guide. And I think that's where Dave was coming from. The third activity is the information activity, how are we learning from outside the organization and how do we get feedback and research into the development of new products and services and the rest of it? And so we provided a system there. In fact, Dave took a lead on that chapter, and we've got several inputs there that have to be defined. And people just thinking through that and understanding that is huge. When Dr. Deming went to Japan in 1950, he was there to do the census to see how many Japanese were left after World War II. And then he got an invitation to come and talk to the top 50 industrialists. And he started asking questions and people from the Bank of Tokyo over there and all the rest of it.   0:33:52.4 Cliff Norman: And Dr. Deming says, well, do you have any problems? And they said, what do you mean? He says, well, do customers call up and complain? And he said, yes. And he says, well, do you have any data? And he said, no. He says, but if they complain, we give them a Geisha calendar. And then Dr. Deming says, well, how many Geisha calendars have you given out? So it's like, in 1991, I'm sitting here talking to a food company and I asked him, I said, well, you get customer complaints? Oh yeah. Do you have any data on it? No, but we give 'em a cookbook. I said, well, how many cookbooks are you giving out? So I was right back to where Deming was in 1950, so having the information activity, that third activity critical so that we're being proactive with it and not just reactive.   0:34:43.7 Cliff Norman: And so I think people can read through that and say, well, what are we doing right now? Well, I guess we're not doing this and move on. Then the fourth activity is absolutely critical. This is where you know that you've arrived, because now you're going to integrate not only the plan to operate, but a plan to improve. That becomes the business plan. For most people in business plan they do a strategy, and then they have a bunch of sub strategies, and they vote on what's important, and they do some other things, and then a year later they come back and revisit it. Well, what happens here is there's some strategic objectives that are laid out, and then immediately it comes down to, okay, what's gonna be designed and redesigned in this system? Which processes, products and services are gonna be designed? 'Cause we can all see it now, Andrew.   0:35:31.6 Andrew Stotz: Mm.   0:35:31.6 Cliff Norman: We can, it's right in front of us. So it's really easy to see at this point, and now we can start to prioritize and make that happen on purpose. As an example when Jane was a vice president at Conagra, they came up with five strategic objectives. Then they made a bunch of promises to corporate about what they were gonna do and when they were going to achieve it. When she laid out the systems map for them, they were horrified that over 30% of the processes that they needed to be having precooked meat didn't even exist. They were gonna have to be designed. And so Jane and I sat there and looking at 'em and said, well, if you'd had this map before you made the promises, would you have made those promises? No, no, we're in trouble right now. I gotta go back to the CEO of the holding company and tell 'em we're not gonna make it.   0:36:22.4 Cliff Norman: But there's a whole bunch of people that sit around in goal settings. We're gonna do this by when and have no idea about what they're talking about. So that's a little bit dangerous here. And then the fifth activity, it's probably the most important. And where I want people to start, I actually want 'em to start on the fifth activity, which is managing individual improvement activities, team activities. And what I mean by that is, nothing can hold you up from starting today on making an improvement and use the model for improvement. The three basic questions, you can write that on an envelope and apply it to a project and start right away. Because learning the habit of improvement, and when you identify, and this is typical in the planning process, again, a chapter that Dave took a lead on in the planning chapter.   0:37:03.8 Cliff Norman: When you lay that out, you're gonna come up with three to five strategic objectives, but that's gonna produce anywhere between 15 and 20 improvement efforts. And when people start three improvement efforts, and they see how difficult that is to traffic through an organization, particularly if you have a systems map, makes it a lot easier. If you don't have that, then there's all sorts of things that happen to you.   0:37:21.3 Andrew Stotz: Hmm.   0:37:22.8 Cliff Norman: But the, the idea of that all coming together is critical. And where you... Where that really shows up for the reader here is in chapter one. So Lloyd Provost took a lead on chapter one. If you read chapter one, you got a pretty good idea of what's gonna happen in the rest of the book. But more importantly, in that book, in chapter one, there's a survey at the end. And every time we give this out to people, they feel real bad.   0:37:48.1 Cliff Norman: And well, Cliff, any, on a scale of one to 10, we only came up with a four. Well, what I would tell 'em is, if you can come up with a four, you're pretty good. And those fundamentals have to be in place. In other words, the management needs to trust each other. There are certain things that have to be in place before you can even think about skating backwards here. And quality as an organizational strategy is all about skating backwards. The people who don't have the fundamentals can't even start to think about that.   0:38:15.0 Cliff Norman: So that survey and the gap between where they are at a four and where they're going to be at a 10, we've integrated throughout the whole book. So as you're reading through the whole book, you're seeing that gap, and then you have a good plan forward as to what do I need to do to get to be a six, an eight, and what do I need to do to finally arrive at a 10? Dave, why don't you add to what I just said there, and I gotta turn on a light here, I think.   0:38:39.2 Dave Williams: Well, I think one of the things that, and Cliff has probably been the one that has helped me appreciate this to the biggest degree is the role in which improvement plays in quality as an organizational strategy. So, I mean, I think in general, in our world, improvement is seen as kind of like a given, but in our case, what we've found is that many times people are not working on the things right in front of them or the problems in which they have, that they are on the hook... I like to say, are on the hook to get accomplished right now. And like Cliff mentioned, many of my clients when I engage with them, I say, well, what have you promised this year? And they'll give me a list and I'll say, well, okay, what are you working on to improve? And they'll be working on projects that are not related to that list of things that they've got to affect. And so usually that's a first pivot is to say, well, let's think about what are the things that you're working on or should be working on that are either designing or redesigning your system to achieve these strategic objectives.   0:39:48.8 Dave Williams: And the reason to put the attention on that fifth activity and get people working on improvement, there's a good chance that the improvement capability within the organization currently isn't to the level that you need it, where you can get results-driven projects happening at a clip that will enable you to chip away at 20 projects versus four in a year. And that it's not well integrated into the leadership, into the support structures that you have. In addition, if you're trying to use improvement on things that you're on the hook for, and Cliff noted, especially if you've got a system map while you're on that journey, you're gonna start to pick up on where the disconnects are. Similar to your example, Andrew, where you were describing your experience working backwards in the process, you're going to start to recognize, oh, I'm working on this, but it's linked to these other things. Or in order for me to do this, I need that. Or... And so that amplifies the project to be kind of just a vehicle to appreciate other things that are interconnected, that are important in improving our work together.   0:41:05.1 Dave Williams: And so I think that that's a critical piece. I mean, I sometimes describe it as the disappointment that people have when they open QOS because they want to have a new method or a new thing to work on. I said, well, there's a lot new in here. And at the same time, we want to build on the shoulders of the fundamentals. We want to build it because it's the fundamentals that are going to be able for you to activate the things that are necessary in order for you to skate backwards, like Cliff was describing earlier.   0:41:36.2 Cliff Norman: I got to add to what Dave was saying because this actually happened to me with a... I'm not going to mention the name of the company, but it's a high-tech companies worldwide. And we got up, a good friend of mine, Bruce Bowles, and we were introducing the idea of quality as an organizational strategy. And one of the guys in the front row, he says, Cliff, this just sounds like common sense, why aren't we all doing this? I said, that's a real good question. Let me put that in the parking lot here. So I put it up on a flip chart. And so we went through the idea of... We were working on Shewhart control charts. And so we showed him one of those. And at the end of all that, he raised his hand and I said, yeah, he says, Cliff, this is hard. I said, well, let me put that up here. This is hard. Then we went through the systems map and he says, look, this is hard. By the end of the two days, it was, this is hard, this is hard, this is hard, this is hard. This goes back to what Dave was saying earlier about once you open this page, there's some work that takes off, but more importantly, there's something new to learn here.   0:42:40.3 Cliff Norman: And that's frustrating to people, especially when they've got to quit doing what they've done in the past. It's what Deming says, you got to give up on the guilt and you got to move forward and transform your own thinking. So there's something here for the management to do. And if they're not willing to do that work, then this is probably not a good thing for them. Just go back to the blame flame and circling org charts and that kind of stuff and then wonder why we're losing money.   0:43:11.8 Andrew Stotz: Yeah, and I think that that's one of the things that we see in the Deming community is that, why are people doing it the way they are, dividing things up and doing KPIs and saying, you take care of that. And we're gonna optimize by focusing on each... We see how that all kind of falls apart.   0:43:27.9 Cliff Norman: It all falls through reductionism.   0:43:29.8 Andrew Stotz: [laughter] Yeah.   0:43:32.5 Cliff Norman: It doesn't understand the system, yeah.   0:43:32.5 Andrew Stotz: Yeah, so what I want to do now is I was just thinking about a book on my shelf called "Competitive Strategy" by Michael Porter. And there's a whole field of study in the area of strategy for businesses. Now you guys use, and you explain a little bit about the way you come up with... Why you come up with organization rather than let's say company as an example. But let's just talk about strategy for a moment. Generally we're taught in business school that there's two main strategies. One is a differentiation strategy. I like to teach my students like Starbucks. It's very differentiated from the old model. And you can have a low cost strategy, which is like McDonald's, where it's all about operational efficiency.   0:44:18.4 Andrew Stotz: And those are two different strategies that can get to the same goal, which is to build a strong and sustainable business that's making a good profit for the employees to get paid well and for shareholders. And so for somebody that understands some of the foundations of typical strategy, it's hard for them to think, wait, wait, wait, what? You're just talking about just better quality is the strategy? How should they frame this concept of quality as a strategy in relation to what we've been taught about low cost and differentiation and other types of strategy? How do we think about this book in relation to that?   0:45:03.2 Cliff Norman: When Deming wrote his book, his very first one of the four "Out of the Crisis", which was the whole idea about quality and competitive position. But he was kind of answering that. And at that time, what we had is we had three companies in the United States that were going at each other, Ford, GM, and Chrysler. And they'd call each other up, well, what are you doing this year? Oh, we're making cars that don't work. Sometimes they break down. That's why we have Mr. Goodwrench to repair them. That's an extra revenue source for us. As one of the executives that are challenged, a colleague of mine, he said, you don't realize how much money we're gonna lose here taking the repair business out because we make a lot of money out of repair. So making cars that don't work has been a good revenue stream for us. Well, all that works out great, until somebody shows up like Toyota that has a car that works and doesn't need to be repaired by Mr. Goodwrench all the time.   0:45:58.8 Cliff Norman: So the mind shift there, and what Dr. Deming was saying is that he was focused on the competition's already licked. And I don't think Porter's thought about that very much, not to be overly critical, because I'm an admirer of his, but the idea of focusing on the need and why is that customer coming to us so that we make a journey, and the Japanese call that being in the Gemba, being in the presence with the customers as they use the product or service and doing the research and the rest of it. And then coming back and then redesign that product or service so that it not only grabs the current customer, but we start thinking about customers that are not even our customers and innovate and actually come up with a design that actually brings new customers to us through products and services that we haven't thought about yet. So if I show you three products just to make a picture of it, we often show like an abacus, which was a hand calculating machine about BC. Then there's a slide rule that came out about the same year that Columbus discovered America. And that was good till about 1968.   0:47:06.0 Cliff Norman: And then the calculator, the handheld calculator came out. Well the need for all three of those products is to do handheld calculations. So we've had that need since BC. Now in 1967, K&E Calculator was making that slide rule, which I used in junior high school. If you'd have come up to me and said, Cliff, what do you need in the way of a better slide rule? I said, well can you get me a holster for it? 'Cause I don't like having to stick me in the face. I put it in my pocket and it sticks me in the face. And if you can give me a holster for that, that would be my view of that. I wasn't about to come up with the TI calculator. That wasn't gonna happen. Not from Cliff. It's gonna come from an engineer at TI. Now, K&E Calculator, if they'd been doing research in the marketplace and saying, is there something that can totally disrupt us going on here? Rather than just looking at figuring out a way to make the K&E slide rule better, they might've discovered that.   0:48:07.0 Cliff Norman: Most people don't do that. They just go back. They just lose their business. And it was interesting in '67, their annual report put out, what's the world gonna look like 100 years from now? So they had dome cities, they had cars flying, they had all sorts of things going on that were great innovations, but they didn't have the TI calculator in there, along with the HP calculator. And that wiped out their business. And so if people understand the need, and that's what Dr. Deming is getting at, he says, they really haven't thought about what business they're in. So why are the customers coming to us? He says, no customer ever asked for pneumatic tire. No customer ever asked for a microwave oven. That came from people with knowledge that were looking at how the customers are using the current products and services and say, now, is there technology innovation going on that we can actually do a better job of providing a better match in the future?   0:48:56.9 Andrew Stotz: And can you explain why you use the word need as opposed to want?   0:49:06.5 Cliff Norman: That's a good question. The idea is that there's a need that's constant in society. So that need of having to do handheld calculations or needing healthcare or to pay bills, that need is constant throughout civilization. And so if I want something that's interesting, that might be the match. That might be something to do with some features what I'm offering and so forth. I'd like to have this, I'd like to have that. But the need and the way we're using that is it doesn't come from customers. It's what drives customers to us. And it's always been there. It's always been there. Need for transportation, for example. Whether you're walking or driving a bicycle or a car or a plane.   0:49:53.6 Andrew Stotz: And Dave, how would you answer the same question when you think about a person running a business and they've had many strategy meetings in their business, they've set their corporate strategy of what we're doing, where we're going and that type of thing. And maybe they've picked, we're gonna be a low cost producer. Thailand's an interesting one because Thailand had a ability to be low cost producers in the past. And then China came along and became the ultimate low cost producer. And all of a sudden, Thai companies had a harder time getting the economies of scale and the like. And now the Chinese manufacturers are just really coming into Thailand, into the Thai market. And now it's like, for a Thai company to become a low cost leader is almost impossible given the scale that China and the skills that they have in that. And so therefore, they're looking at things like I've got to figure out how to get a better brand. I've got to figure out how to differentiate and that type of thing. How does this... How could this help a place like that and a management team that is struggling and stuck and is looking for answers?   0:51:07.0 Dave Williams: Well, I go back to what Cliff said about that many organizations don't pause to ask, why do they exist? What is the need of which they are trying to fulfill? Much of my background involved working in the service industry, initially with public safety and ambulance systems and fire systems, and then later in healthcare and in education. And in many of those environments, especially in places where in public systems where they've been built and they may have existed for a long time, when you ask them about what are they trying to accomplish as an organization or what is it that they... The need that they're trying to fulfill? Typically, they're gonna come back to you with requests or desires or wants or sort of characteristics or outcomes that people say they expect, but they don't pause to ask, like, well, what is the actual thing of which I'm trying to tackle? And Cliff mentioned like, and we actually, I should mention in the book, we have a list of different strategies, different types of strategies, all the different ones that you mentioned, like price and raw material or distribution style or platform or technology.   0:52:30.9 Dave Williams: There's different types of strategies, and the one that we are focusing in on is quality. But I think it's important for people to ask the question. Cliff mentioned transportation. There's a number of different great examples, actually, I think in transportation, where you could look at that as being an ongoing need as Cliff mentioned from the days when there was no technology and we were all on foot to our current day. Transportation has been a need that existed and many different things over time have been created from bicycles, probably one of the most efficient technologies to transport somebody, wheels and carts. And now, and you were referencing, we've made reference to the car industry. It's a fascinating experience going on of the car world and gas versus electric, high technology versus not, autonomous vehicles. There's, and all of them are trying to ask the question of, are there different ways in which I might be able to leverage technology to achieve this need of getting from point A to point B and be more useful and potentially disrupt in the marketplace? And so I think the critical thing initially is to go back and ask and learn and appreciate what is that need?   0:53:58.6 Dave Williams: And then think about your own products and services in relation to that. And I think we include four questions in the book to be able to kind of think about the need. And one of those questions is also, what are other ways in which you could fulfill that need? What are other ways that somebody could get transportation or do learning or to help sort of break you away from just thinking about your own product as well? And that's useful because it's super tied to the system question, right? Of, well, this is the need that we're trying to fulfill and these are the products and services that are matching that need. Then the system that we have is about, we need to build that and design that in order to produce, not only produce the products and services that match that need, but also continually improve that system to either improve those products and services or add or subtract products and services to keep matching the need and keep being competitive or keep being relevant. And maybe if it's not in a competitive environment where you're gonna go out of business, at least be relevant in terms of the city service or community service, government service that continues to be there to match the need of the constituents. So I think it's a really important piece.   0:55:17.0 Dave Williams: It's that North star of saying, providing a direction for everything else. And going back to your original comment or question about strategy, and many times people jump to a strategy or strategies or, and those might be more around particular objectives or outcomes that they're trying to get to. It may not actually be about the method or the approach like cost or technology that they may not even think that way. They may be more thinking about a plan. And I really encourage people to be clear about what they're trying to accomplish and then start to ask, well, how's the system built for that? And later we can bring a process that'll help us learn about our system and learn about closing that gap.   0:56:05.1 Cliff Norman: Yeah. Just what I'd add to that, Andrew, because you mentioned China, a few other countries, but I think the days are coming to an end fairly quickly where somebody can say, oh, we can go to this country. They have low wages, we'll put our plant there and all that. There's a lot of pushback on that, particularly in the United States. And if that's your strategy, that hadn't required a lot of thinking to say the least. But in 1966, over 50% of the countries in the world were, let me rephrase that, over 50% of the population of the world lived in extreme poverty. So there were a lot of targets to pick out where you want to put your manufacturing. And in 2017, and you and Dave were probably like myself, I didn't see this hit the news, but that figure had been reduced from over 50% down to 9%. And all you have to do is just, and I worked in China a lot, they're becoming very affluent. And as they become very affluent, that means wages are going up and all the things that we want to see throughout the world. And I think that's happening on a grand scale right now, but you're also getting a lot of pushback from people when they see the middle class in their own country, like here in the United States, destroyed, and say, I think we've had enough of this. And I think you're gonna see that after January. You're gonna see that take off on steroids.   0:57:31.7 Cliff Norman: And that's gonna happen, and I think throughout the world, people are demanding more, there's gonna have to be more energy, every time a baby is born, the footprints gets bigger for more energy and all the rest of it. So it's gonna be interesting, and I think we are going into an age for the planet where people as Dr. Deming promised that they'd be able to live materially better, and the whole essence of this book is to focus on the quality of the organization and the design and redesign of a system to a better job of matching the need and cause that chain reaction to go off. When Jane and I went over to work in Sweden, Sven Oloff who ran three hospitals and 62 dental clinics there and also managed the cultural activities and young shipping. He said, Cliff, I report to 81 politicians. I don't wanna have to go to them to put a bond on an election to get more money for my healthcare system, I wanna use Dr. Deming's chain reaction here to improve care to the patients in my county and also reduce our costs. A whole bunch of people that don't even believe that's possible in healthcare.   0:58:39.9 Cliff Norman: But that's what Sven Oloff said that's what you're here for. And that's what we proceeded to do, they launched about 350 projects to do just that, and one of their doctors, Dr. Motz [?], he's amazing. We taught him a systems map, I came back two months later, and he had them in his hospital on display. And I said, Motz, how did you do this? He said well Cliff, I'm an endocrinologist by education as a doctor, of course, that's a person who understands internal systems in the body. So he said the systems approach was a natural for me. But I'd like to say it was that easy for everybody else, that systems map idea and as you know, being in the Deming seminar, that's quite a challenge to move from viewing the organization as an org chart, which has been around since Moses father-in-law told him, you need to break up the work here a little bit, and the tens of tens reporting to each other, and then of course, the Romans took that to a grander scale, and so a centurion soldier had 100 other soldiers reporting to him. So we've had org charts long and our federal government took that to a whole new level.   0:59:46.1 Cliff Norman: But the idea is switching off the org chart from biblical times to actually getting it up to Burt [?] about 1935 and understanding a system that's kind of a nose bleed in terms of how much we're traveling there to get us into the 21st century here.   1:00:04.0 Andrew Stotz: And I left Ohio, I grew up outside of Cleveland, and I left Ohio in about 1985, roughly. And it was still a working class, Cleveland had a huge number of jobs and there was factories and all that, and then I went to California, and then I moved to Thailand in 1992. So when I go back to Ohio now, many years later, decades later, it's like a hollowed out place, and I think about what you're saying is... And what's going on in the world right now is that I think there's a desire in America to bring back manufacturing to bring back production and all of that, and that's a very, very hard challenge, particularly if it's gone for a while and the skill sets aren't there, maybe the education system isn't there, I talk a lot with John Dues here on the show about the what's happening in education and it's terrifying.   1:01:05.9 Andrew Stotz: So how could this be... Book be a guide for helping people that are saying, we've got to revitalize American production and manufacturing and some of these foundational businesses and not just services, which are great. How can this book be a guide?   1:01:25.8 Dave Williams: One thing I would say that I think is interesting about our times, many times when I reflect on some of the examples that you just provided, I think about how changes were made in systems without thinking about the whole system together. And there may have been changes at various times that we're pursuing particular strategies or particular approaches, so it may have been the low-cost strategy, it may have been to disrupt a marketplace. And oftentimes, they don't think about... When somebody's pursuing one particular view, they may miss other views that are important to have an holistic perspective. One of the things that I appreciate about QoS in the methods and overall as a holistic view of looking at organizations that it's asking us to really think initially about that North Star, what we're trying to do, our purpose, and what are the tenants. What are the things that are important us, the values...   1:02:38.7 Dave Williams: That are important to us in pursuing that particular purpose? And in doing that, really thinking about how does the system work as it is today, and if we make changes, how does it move in alignment with the values that we have and in the direction that we wanna go? And appreciating, I would say, part of the value of the scientific thinking that is in the Science of Improvement is that it encourages you to try to see what happens and appreciate not only what happens in relation to the direction you're trying to go, but also the... Have a balanced view of looking at the collateral effects of things that you do, and I think that systems do is really important there. So I think from that perspective, the quality as an organizational strategy brings a holistic picture into these organizations, or at least...   1:03:45.1 Dave Williams: To be paying attention to the system that you have, maybe the direction you wanna go, and what happens as you... What are your predictions and what do you see when you study the results of making changes in the direction of the vision that you have. And I think that's at a high level that is one of the ways that I think about it. Cliff, how would you add on there?   1:04:09.1 Cliff Norman: Your question made me think of something that happened about two years ago, Jane and I got a call from a lady that worked for her in one of the chicken plants, and she said, Jane, I had to call you because I need to order some of those Shewhart charts. But what happened today, you should have been here and Jane said, what... She said, Remember that 10 year thing we buried in the ground that we're gonna open up in 10 years, and she said, yeah, said, well, we opened it up today, and the new plant manager was here, and those Shewhart charts came out, and he looked at the costs on them. He said, you were operating at this level? She said, yeah, routinely. And he said what happened? He said, well, they had new management come in and they got rid of the charts, that's the first thing they did, and then gradually they try to manage things like they normally did, and then they forgot everything that we had learned. And that's kind of where we are right now.   1:05:11.0 Cliff Norman: So just think of that a decade goes by, and it just as Dr. Deming said, there's nothing worse than the mobility of management, it's like getting AIDS in the system. And they basically destroyed their ability to run a low-cost operation in an industry that runs on 1 or 2%. And when you watch that happen and understand that we still have food companies in this country, and we have to start there and start looking at the system anew and start thinking about how it can actually cause that chain reaction to take off, and that comes from focusing on quality of the system. And then as Dr. Deming says, anybody that's ever worked for a living knows why costs go down with two words less rework, but instead of people will put in extra departments to handle the rework. Next thing they start building departments to handle...   1:06:01.8 Cliff Norman: The stuff that's not working because the system they don't understand. So that was a... What do they call those things, Dave, where they put them in the ground and pull him out?   1:06:11.0 Dave Williams: Time capsule.   1:06:13.4 Andrew Stotz: Time capsule yeah.   1:06:13.5 Cliff Norman: Yeah. Time capsule. The a 10-year time capsule.   1:06:19.2 Andrew Stotz: It's a great, great story. And a great idea. We had a company in Thailand a very large company that the CEO of it came upon the idea of the teachings of Dr. Deming and over time, as he implemented it in his company, the Japanese Union of Scientists have their prize and his company won that prize and then he had about 10 subsidiary companies that also were doing it and they also won over time. And so Thailand is actually is the second largest recipient of the Japanese Deming Award outside of India. But he left and he retired and another guy took over, a very bright guy and all that, but he threw most of that out and focused on newer methods like KPIs and things like that. And just at the end of last year, maybe six months ago, they reported a pretty significant loss, and I was kind of made me think how we can spend all this time getting the Deming teachings into our business, and then one little change in management and it's done.   1:07:26.9 Andrew Stotz: And that made me think, oh, well, that's the value of the book, in the sense that it's about building the concept of quality as a core part of strategy as opposed to just a tool or a way of thinking that could go out of the company as soon as someone else comes in. Go ahead, Dave.   1:07:41.9 Dave Williams: I was gonna say, Andrew, you raise a point, I think it's really, really important and Cliff mentioned this in terms of the problem of mobility of management. One thing that I don't know that we outline probably in dark enough ink in the book is the critically important piece of leadership, building the structures and the capability. I know we talk a little bit about it, but doing it in a way that both builds up the people that you have... So Cliff emphasiz

Leah Bash is an avid runner, a dog mom, a wife – and there's a part of her family's history she can't stop thinking about. Both sides of her family were incarcerated alongside 125,000 other Japanese Americans during World War II. Her father and his six siblings spent more than three years behind barbed wire at isolated camps in Manzanar, California and Crystal City, Texas. After Leah learns about her father's struggles with panic attacks and is herself diagnosed with bipolar disorder, she starts to wonder: could those experiences at camp during World War II have far-reaching consequences a generation later? In this episode of Inheriting from LAist Studios and the NPR network, Leah has a candid conversation with her cousin Joya, for the very first time, about their family's mental health and the effects of the incarceration camp.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Episode 99: Election 2024Guest: Steven UlrichDewhitt is back after taking a very much needed break to discuss the 2024 Presidential election with one of his brightest Illinois State University Criminal Justice Students, Steven Ulrich. Illinois State University has over 600 criminal justice students and each year there are 10-15 students hand picked to participate in Leads, a leadership program. Steven is one of the students selected for the 2024-2025 school year. Steven and Bingham discuss the following:Where he was born and raised His high schoolCareer goalsHis top three election issuesWhere the candidates stand on the U.S. ConstitutionPolice reformThe rule of lawFascismAbortionHaitian immigrantsInflationCost of livingCurrent immigration lawMass deportationDehumanization of peopleEconomyPovertyCommunity investmentSupreme CourtThe legalization marijuana And what he'd like to see the next administration accomplishYou can listen to the JFA Podcast Show wherever you get your podcast or by clicking on one of the links below.https://dlbspodcast.buzzsprout.com    https://blog.feedspot.com/social_justice_podcasts/    https://peculiarbooks.org   Also if you are interested in exercise and being healthy check out the Top 20 Triathlon Podcasts.https://blog.feedspot.com/triathlon_podcasts/ 

Happy Halloween! Thanks for tuning in to this Thursday edition of RealAg Radio's Farmer Rapid Fire, brought to you by Pioneer Seeds Canada! Host Shaun Haney checks in with: Shawn Schill of Arthur, Ont.; Bruce Hill of Kinburn, Ont.; Landon Friesen of Crystal City, Man.; and, Leslie Ray Kelly of Watrous, Sask. Also hear from... Read More

Happy Halloween! Thanks for tuning in to this Thursday edition of RealAg Radio's Farmer Rapid Fire, brought to you by Pioneer Seeds Canada! Host Shaun Haney checks in with: Shawn Schill of Arthur, Ont.; Bruce Hill of Kinburn, Ont.; Landon Friesen of Crystal City, Man.; and, Leslie Ray Kelly of Watrous, Sask. Also hear from… Read More

Happy Halloween! Thanks for tuning in to this Thursday edition of RealAg Radio's Farmer Rapid Fire, brought to you by Pioneer Seeds Canada! Host Shaun Haney checks in with: Shawn Schill of Arthur, Ont.; Bruce Hill of Kinburn, Ont.; Landon Friesen of Crystal City, Man.; and, Leslie Ray Kelly of Watrous, Sask. Also hear from... Read More

As of this week, most of the Crystal City underground shops are shutting down for good. The owner of Total Party, a store that's been there for nine years, joins us to talk about when the Crystal City Mall thrived, why it's died, and what's next. Want some more DC news? Then make sure to sign up for our morning newsletter Hey DC. You can also become a member, with ad-free listening, for as little as $8 a month. Learn more about the sponsors of this October 28th episode: Mosaic Theater Company BetterHelp - get 10% off at betterhelp.com/CITYCAST Luray Caverns Interested in advertising with City Cast? Find more info HERE. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dave Wennergren, CEO at the American Council for Technology - Industry Advisory Council (ACT-IAC) and the most cheerful gentleman we know joins the GovNavigators Show to give a preview of the upcoming Imagination ELC24 conference and talk about the latest trends and developments in government tech.Show NotesGSA's Login.gov announces certification of Identity Assurance Level 2 (IAL2) complianceOMB Publishes the Trust RegHow a wonky, centrist catchphrase explains Harris's platformA Simple Plan to Solve All of America's ProblemsEvents on the GovNavigators' RadarGAIN 2024 (October 17, 2024) Small Business Alliance - FY25 Government Wide IT Category ForumACT-IAC Imagination ELC24 (October 27-29, Hershey, PA)ACT-IAC CX Summit (November 15, Crystal City, VA)

Send us a textIn 2015, Fairfax criminal lawyer Jon Katz finished court earlier than expected, and beelined to the Mindful Leadership conference in Crystal City, Virginia, in part to meet speaker Roshi Joan Halifax. Snagging a ticket to this soldout event, Jon met Roshi Joan, and also sat mesmerized by speaker Jim Dethmer's (co-founder of the Conscious Leadership Group) talk about conscious leadership, and about the difference between leading from above the line (where one is open, curious, and not attacking) versus from below the line. This conscious leadership approach is fully addressed in The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, by Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, and Kaley Warner Klemp. The challenges abound for criminal defense lawyers and their clients to get sidetracked by actually or apparently slinged mud, heartlessness, dehumanization efforts, underhandedness and prevarication from various quarters in the courthouse and beyond. Getting angry and misdirected is weakening. Smiling in the face of proverbial flying vomit and diarrhea -- when knowing the possibilities of sweet success that may be right around the corner -- is the powerful way to proceed. Conscious Leadership's Deb Katz pulls no punches in addressing how she transitioned from years of proceeding as an unconscious leader to a conscious one. She talks about how it is possible to say f--k you from above the line, and how sweetness does not automatically put one above the line. Deb addresses how Conscious Leadership draws on numerous pre-existing approaches to leading in a beneficial way. She and Jon both benefit from the teachings and practices of Ho'oponopono, which is featured on a previous Beat The Prosecution podcast episode. This conversation between Jon Katz and Deb Katz (same last name, but no close family connection) dives deep into transitioning into the conscious leadership approach. The universal and Apple podcasts URL for this episode are at https://podcast.beattheprosecution.com/2293867/episodes/15777966 and https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beat-the-prosecution/id1721413675?i=1000669998168This podcast with Fairfax, Virginia criminal / DUI lawyer Jon Katz is playable on all devices at podcast.BeatTheProsecution.com. For more information, visit https://BeatTheProsecution.com or contact us at info@BeatTheProsecution.com, 703-383-1100 (calling), or 571-406-7268 (text). Hear our prior podcasts, at https://podcast.BeatTheProsecution.com/If you like what you hear on our Beat the Prosecution podcast, please take a moment to post a review at our Apple podcasts page (with stars only, or else also with a comment) at https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beat-the-prosecution/id1721413675

Near-death experience guest 1086 is Heather Mae, who due to blood clots that stopped her heart had a near death experience and crossed over into the abyss. Heather's Contacts info@heathermae.ca https://www.instagram.com/got_insight/ CONTACT: Email: jeff@jeffmarapodcast.com WEBSITE www.jeffmarapodcast.com SOCIALS: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeffmarapodcast/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jeffmarapodcast/ Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/jeffmaraP/ JeffMara does not endorse any of his guests' products or services. The opinions of the guests may or may not reflect the opinions of the host. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/jeffrey-s-reynolds/support

In 'We Want Better Education!': The 1960s Chicano Student Movement, School Walkouts, and the Quest for Educational Reform in South Texas (Texas A&M UP, 2023), James B. Barrera offers a detailed and comprehensive analysis of the educational, cultural, and political issues of the Chicano Movement in Texas, which remains one of the lesser-known social and political efforts of the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s. This movement became the political training ground for greater Chicano empowerment for students. By the 1970s, it was these students who helped to organize La Raza Unida Party in Texas. This book explores the conditions faced by students of Mexican origin in public schools throughout the South Texas region, including Westside San Antonio, Edcouch-Elsa, Kingsville, and Crystal City.  Barrera focuses on the relationship of Chicano students and their parents with the school systems and reveals the types of educational deficiencies faced by such students that led to greater political activism. He also shows how school-related issues became an important element of the students' political and cultural struggle to gain a quality education and equal treatment. Protests enabled students and their supporters to gain considerable political leverage in the decision-making process of their schools. Barrera incorporates information collected from archives throughout the state of Texas, including statistical data, government documents, census information, oral history accounts, and legal records. Of particular note are the in-depth interviews he conducted with numerous former students and community activists who participated or witnessed the various "walkouts" or student protests. "We Want Better Education!" is a major contribution to the historiography of social movements, Mexican American studies, and twentieth-century Texas and American history. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/latino-studies

In 'We Want Better Education!': The 1960s Chicano Student Movement, School Walkouts, and the Quest for Educational Reform in South Texas (Texas A&M UP, 2023), James B. Barrera offers a detailed and comprehensive analysis of the educational, cultural, and political issues of the Chicano Movement in Texas, which remains one of the lesser-known social and political efforts of the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s. This movement became the political training ground for greater Chicano empowerment for students. By the 1970s, it was these students who helped to organize La Raza Unida Party in Texas. This book explores the conditions faced by students of Mexican origin in public schools throughout the South Texas region, including Westside San Antonio, Edcouch-Elsa, Kingsville, and Crystal City.  Barrera focuses on the relationship of Chicano students and their parents with the school systems and reveals the types of educational deficiencies faced by such students that led to greater political activism. He also shows how school-related issues became an important element of the students' political and cultural struggle to gain a quality education and equal treatment. Protests enabled students and their supporters to gain considerable political leverage in the decision-making process of their schools. Barrera incorporates information collected from archives throughout the state of Texas, including statistical data, government documents, census information, oral history accounts, and legal records. Of particular note are the in-depth interviews he conducted with numerous former students and community activists who participated or witnessed the various "walkouts" or student protests. "We Want Better Education!" is a major contribution to the historiography of social movements, Mexican American studies, and twentieth-century Texas and American history. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

In 'We Want Better Education!': The 1960s Chicano Student Movement, School Walkouts, and the Quest for Educational Reform in South Texas (Texas A&M UP, 2023), James B. Barrera offers a detailed and comprehensive analysis of the educational, cultural, and political issues of the Chicano Movement in Texas, which remains one of the lesser-known social and political efforts of the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s. This movement became the political training ground for greater Chicano empowerment for students. By the 1970s, it was these students who helped to organize La Raza Unida Party in Texas. This book explores the conditions faced by students of Mexican origin in public schools throughout the South Texas region, including Westside San Antonio, Edcouch-Elsa, Kingsville, and Crystal City.  Barrera focuses on the relationship of Chicano students and their parents with the school systems and reveals the types of educational deficiencies faced by such students that led to greater political activism. He also shows how school-related issues became an important element of the students' political and cultural struggle to gain a quality education and equal treatment. Protests enabled students and their supporters to gain considerable political leverage in the decision-making process of their schools. Barrera incorporates information collected from archives throughout the state of Texas, including statistical data, government documents, census information, oral history accounts, and legal records. Of particular note are the in-depth interviews he conducted with numerous former students and community activists who participated or witnessed the various "walkouts" or student protests. "We Want Better Education!" is a major contribution to the historiography of social movements, Mexican American studies, and twentieth-century Texas and American history. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/history

In 'We Want Better Education!': The 1960s Chicano Student Movement, School Walkouts, and the Quest for Educational Reform in South Texas (Texas A&M UP, 2023), James B. Barrera offers a detailed and comprehensive analysis of the educational, cultural, and political issues of the Chicano Movement in Texas, which remains one of the lesser-known social and political efforts of the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s. This movement became the political training ground for greater Chicano empowerment for students. By the 1970s, it was these students who helped to organize La Raza Unida Party in Texas. This book explores the conditions faced by students of Mexican origin in public schools throughout the South Texas region, including Westside San Antonio, Edcouch-Elsa, Kingsville, and Crystal City.  Barrera focuses on the relationship of Chicano students and their parents with the school systems and reveals the types of educational deficiencies faced by such students that led to greater political activism. He also shows how school-related issues became an important element of the students' political and cultural struggle to gain a quality education and equal treatment. Protests enabled students and their supporters to gain considerable political leverage in the decision-making process of their schools. Barrera incorporates information collected from archives throughout the state of Texas, including statistical data, government documents, census information, oral history accounts, and legal records. Of particular note are the in-depth interviews he conducted with numerous former students and community activists who participated or witnessed the various "walkouts" or student protests. "We Want Better Education!" is a major contribution to the historiography of social movements, Mexican American studies, and twentieth-century Texas and American history. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/american-studies

In 'We Want Better Education!': The 1960s Chicano Student Movement, School Walkouts, and the Quest for Educational Reform in South Texas (Texas A&M UP, 2023), James B. Barrera offers a detailed and comprehensive analysis of the educational, cultural, and political issues of the Chicano Movement in Texas, which remains one of the lesser-known social and political efforts of the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s. This movement became the political training ground for greater Chicano empowerment for students. By the 1970s, it was these students who helped to organize La Raza Unida Party in Texas. This book explores the conditions faced by students of Mexican origin in public schools throughout the South Texas region, including Westside San Antonio, Edcouch-Elsa, Kingsville, and Crystal City.  Barrera focuses on the relationship of Chicano students and their parents with the school systems and reveals the types of educational deficiencies faced by such students that led to greater political activism. He also shows how school-related issues became an important element of the students' political and cultural struggle to gain a quality education and equal treatment. Protests enabled students and their supporters to gain considerable political leverage in the decision-making process of their schools. Barrera incorporates information collected from archives throughout the state of Texas, including statistical data, government documents, census information, oral history accounts, and legal records. Of particular note are the in-depth interviews he conducted with numerous former students and community activists who participated or witnessed the various "walkouts" or student protests. "We Want Better Education!" is a major contribution to the historiography of social movements, Mexican American studies, and twentieth-century Texas and American history. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/american-west

In 'We Want Better Education!': The 1960s Chicano Student Movement, School Walkouts, and the Quest for Educational Reform in South Texas (Texas A&M UP, 2023), James B. Barrera offers a detailed and comprehensive analysis of the educational, cultural, and political issues of the Chicano Movement in Texas, which remains one of the lesser-known social and political efforts of the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s. This movement became the political training ground for greater Chicano empowerment for students. By the 1970s, it was these students who helped to organize La Raza Unida Party in Texas. This book explores the conditions faced by students of Mexican origin in public schools throughout the South Texas region, including Westside San Antonio, Edcouch-Elsa, Kingsville, and Crystal City.  Barrera focuses on the relationship of Chicano students and their parents with the school systems and reveals the types of educational deficiencies faced by such students that led to greater political activism. He also shows how school-related issues became an important element of the students' political and cultural struggle to gain a quality education and equal treatment. Protests enabled students and their supporters to gain considerable political leverage in the decision-making process of their schools. Barrera incorporates information collected from archives throughout the state of Texas, including statistical data, government documents, census information, oral history accounts, and legal records. Of particular note are the in-depth interviews he conducted with numerous former students and community activists who participated or witnessed the various "walkouts" or student protests. "We Want Better Education!" is a major contribution to the historiography of social movements, Mexican American studies, and twentieth-century Texas and American history. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/public-policy

Three of the nation's top scholars known for tackling key mysteries about poverty in America turn their attention from the country's poorest people to its poorest places.

Episode 97: Qualifications To Be President Of The United StatesGuest: Jakeria Mitchell, Yessica Muniz, Trey Walker, and Shamar TaylorBingham has retired from teaching at Heartland Community College,  will be retiring from teaching at Illinois State University in December, and will begin focusing on interviewing members of the community. However, prior to his retirement from ISU, he has a discussion with four recent Illinois State University graduates who majored in criminal justice. They discuss the qualifications to be President of the United States of America. Bingham and his guest discuss the following: Where they were born and raisedTheir career goalsWhy they selected criminal justice as a majorTheir favorite Constitutional rightsQualifications they see as important to be PresidentAge as a factorMental health as a factorJim CrowBryron DonaldsBlack Lives MatterWhite SupremacyThe legalization marijuana Govenor Wes Moore's PardonThe Biden Administration You can listen to the JFA Podcast Show wherever you get your podcast or by clicking on one of the links below.https://dlbspodcast.buzzsprout.com  https://blog.feedspot.com/social_justice_podcasts/   https://peculiarbooks.org   Wes Moore Pardons 175,000 https://governor.maryland.gov/news/press/pages/governor-moore-signs-nationally-historic-executive-order-pardoning-175000-maryland-cannabis-convictions.aspx Also if you are interested in exercise and being healthy check out the Top 20 Triathlon Podcasts.https://blog.feedspot.com/triathlon_podcasts/  

Leah Bash is an avid runner, a dog mom, a wife – and there's a part of her family's history she can't stop thinking about. The fact that both sides of her family were incarcerated alongside 125,000 other Japanese Americans during World War II. Her father and his six siblings spent more than three years behind barbed wire at isolated camps in Manzanar, California and Crystal City, Texas. After Leah learns about her father's struggles with panic attacks and is herself diagnosed with bipolar disorder, she starts to wonder: could those experiences at camp during World War II have far-reaching consequences a generation later?Inheriting is entirely funded by supporters like you. If you want to hear future seasons, go to LAist.com/Inheriting and click on the orange box to donate.You can also find resources about the historic events covered in each episode and relevant lesson plans from the Asian American Education Project, including the ones below.Lesson 2.1.1 (Grades Pre-K - 6): Japanese American Incarceration and the U.S. Constitution https://asianamericanedu.org/2.1.1-japanese-incarceration-camps-elementary-lesson-plan.htmlLesson 2.3 (Grades 6 - 12): Who Defines Loyalty? Japanese Americans During World War II https://asianamericanedu.org/2.3-define-loyal-american-lesson-plan.htmlLearn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

In the context of the Xicano national liberation movement and the ideology of Aztlán, the Raza Unida Party (RUP) was a political party founded in 1970 in Crystal City, Texas. It emerged in response to systemic discrimination and the political disenfranchisement of Mexican Americans. The RUP aimed to achieve self-determination for the Xicano community through political representation, education reform, and economic justice. It sought to build a unified front advocating for the rights and interests of Xicano/as, emphasizing cultural pride and grassroots activism to challenge and dismantle colonial structures within the United States.      

After 10 years without flight benefits,  Shannon has them back and is excited to  use them! Podcast weekend Wyldebyrd Art warehouse tour! Make a keychain with metal from your own airline!!Follow him on IG: Wildebyrdart Shannon has 35 yrs of Non Reving experience Husband is a pilot for Continental Express Shannon usually travels with her 3 girlsAdvice: Slow down when traveling with little children!TIP:  TSA  will allow you to carry FROZEN Capri Sun and Go Gurts through security!Over plan and under serveWe all need “Body Rest”

Join Boozy and his Certified Legal Layman live at Furthemore 2024 in beautiful Crystal City, Virginia as they discuss statutory interpretation when it comes to how vague a criminal law must be before it's actually invalid!  Featuring DUIs, multiple abortions, failures to properly preserve issues for appeal, and the worst cut and paste error in the history of law!Supporting Documents and Cases HERE.Legal Funhouse Theme by Status Ferret. Check out his stuff here!Support the showSupport Boozy over on Patreon, or maybe watch him at Twitch You can tip him at Paypal of Send him a Ko-Fi as well! If you want to support Alkali, you can do that at Alkali & Xanni's Twitch channel or on their Patreon!

Before we get started, some fun news: Peter, Alyssa, and Sonny are going to be at the DC Bryant Street Drafthouse on Tuesday, April 9 for a screening of Arrival and a live show. Should be a fun time; make sure to get your tickets now, as we sold out the last one of these we did in Crystal City. (If you click above and see “no showtimes available,” make sure to click the “Tuesday 4/9” link.) And now, on to the show! It's the Oscars episode, so in cons and nons we talk Kimmel vs. Trump before discussing the ceremony and the winners. Was this the best show in ages? Did the right nominees win? How great was that "I'm Just Ken" performance? How cool were those Godzilla shoes worn by FX artists on Godzilla Minus One? All that and more on this Tuesday's episode. Make sure to swing by Bulwark+ on Friday for our chat about best supporting actor winner Robert Downey Jr.'s career. And if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend!

Jeff Kolb joins Jason to talk about his experience in conservative politics, what he looks at in the media and more.

Former U.S. Sen. Bill Bradley of New Jersey will return to the St. Louis area this weekend to receive the Stan Musial Lifetime Achievement Award for Sportsmanship. On the “Politically Speaking Hour on St. Louis on the Air,” the Crystal City, Missouri, native and two-time NBA champion discusses his Jefferson County upbringing, his long-standing push for racial equity and whether he thinks the NBA will ever return to St. Louis.

“The Kilcoyne Conversation” with Bill Bradley. The pride of Crystal City on being a Rhodes Scholar, 2 NBA titles with the Knicks, time as a U.S. Senator and now a Musial Lifetime Achievement Award. Click here to listen to more "Kilcoyne Conversations"

When Greg and Dana are called in to weird-up a popular cable tv show, they receive an artifact with strange powers: the ability to locate a lost civilization. In this episode, we strap on our mystical amulets and head to California in search of the Crystal City of Telos! Plus, Connor returns from Magic Camp, Dana teaches us discernment, and Greg airs his Bigfoot beef. Polish your quartz and prepare to channel the Ascended Masters, because we're headed to Lemuria!Join the Museum: https://patreon.com/paramuseumVisit Our Website: https://hauntedobjectspodcast.comSubscribe on YouTube: https://tinyurl.com/25xf92nxFollow Greg NewkirkTwitter: https://twitter.com/nuekerkInstagram: https://instagram.com/nuekerkWebsite: https://gregorynewkirk.comFollow Dana NewkirkTwitter: https://twitter.com/weird_danaInstagram: https://instagram.com/weird_danaFollow Connor J. RandallTwitter: https://twitter.com/connorjrandallInstagram: https://instagram.com/connorjrandallSHOW NOTES:- Greg & Dana on  Finding Bigfoot: https://amzn.to/44mK1AN- The Ghoulies - Connor's Punk Past: https://tinyurl.com/ycynyuf7- Mount Shasta Volcano: https://tinyurl.com/ynp9cw7b- Mt. Shasta's Forgotten History & Legends: https://tinyurl.com/ynp9cw7b- Mount Shasta Sightings by Brian Wallenstein: https://amzn.to/44hx76X- A Dweller On Two Planets by Phylos: https://amzn.to/3NNMZsE- JC Brown's Identity Revealed?: https://tinyurl.com/bdnccvap- Sclater's Theory and Lemurian Legends: https://tinyurl.com/yc2jpxk3- Basics of Plate Tectonics: https://tinyurl.com/4e67xr4v- New Continent Discovered Under Mauritius: https://tinyurl.com/5ecjhsdkCopyright 2023 Planet WeirdHosted by Greg and Dana NewkirkProduced by Connor J RandallPhotography by Karl PfeifferAdditional Research by Keelin MathewsArt by Dustin WilliamsTheme by Adam Hayman"The Disembodied Voice" by Chuck Fresh