Podcast appearances and mentions of diane english

Michael Curtis joined me to talk Saturday Morning cartoons; going to SDSU Film Corps; having a local Emmy nominated public access sketch show; working on Return of the Killer Tomatoes; being a PA for many films, then an AD; meeting his partner Greg Mahlins; pitching and an episode of Dream On; a story for The Wonder Years; joining the writing staff of Great Scott with Tobey Maguire; writing The Making of ... and God Spoke, a cult classic; writing for Don Rickles on Daddy Dearest; Diane English being out of touch on Double Rush; play a cop in Who's Harry Crumb; working with Peter & David Paul and Martin Mull; getting a PhD from the Universal Life Church; getting hired on Friends; The Super Bowl episode with Jean Claude Van Damme and Brooke Shields; writing "The One Where Ross & Rachel. ...You Know"; writing the Ms. Chanandler Bong joke; Tom Selleck; how hard it was to write the "Rachel Smokes" episode; Princess Leia episode has a fan in George Lucas; a censored joke; Young Tony Danza; leaving due to exhaustion; going to Work with Me with Kevin Pollack; sneaking on to The Grinch set; The Weber Show; Nikki; writing the Joe Schmo Show; writing a pilot for Dane Cook; Love, Inc.; making three pilots for the Jonas Brothers Show; working with the boys; Fred Savage; moving to Italy; Italian health care system; People learning English from Friends; seeing the talent in Olivo Rodrigo; working with Jake Paul

I love to talk TV and I really enjoy every exchange with Susan and Sharon, otherwise known as the 80s TV Ladies. When their podcast, 80s TV Ladies, launched, they invited me to be a guest. It was a blast and over the last two years, the two podcasts have furthered a shared exploration of how women have been represented on television and the impact that representation has had on society as a whole and females, of all ages, in particular. Like Advanced TV Herstory, their show features interviews and analyzes the work of women both in front of and behind the camera. Our podcasts aim to help listeners understand how our culture shapes the television shows we watch and, in turn, how those shows shape our culture. Listen in on this engaging and informative look behind the scenes as we discuss the motivations, joys, and challenges of creating podcasts that highlight the contributions of women in television. 80s TV LADIES   Contacts Website – 80s TV Ladies - https://www.80stvladies.com/  Website – 134 West - https://134west.biz/  Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/80sTVLadies/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/80stvladies/ YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@80stvladies  Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/80sTVLadies   Awards 2024 Women in Podcasting, Nominee in Entertainment – VOTE at https://womeninpodcasting.net/80s-tv-ladies/     2024 Webby Award – Best Indie Podcast   2023 People's Choice Podcast Awards - Best Art, Best TV & Film, Best Female Hosted    MENTIONS   Podcast Episodes 80s TV Ladies (24 May 2023) – Advanced TV Herstory w/ Cynthia Bemis Abrams, Part One - https://www.80stvladies.com/episode/episode-201-welcome-to-season-2-advanced-tv-herstory-w-cynthia-bemis-abram-part-1   80s TV Ladies (31 May 2023) – Advanced TV Herstory w/ Cynthia Bemis Abrams, Part Two - https://www.80stvladies.com/episode/episode-202-advanced-tv-herstory-aw-cynthia-bemis-abrams-part-two   Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus (11 Apr 2023) – Jane Fonda on Female Friendships - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jane-fonda-on-female-friendships/id1678559416?i=1000608248297   Shows Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Cagney and Lacey, China Beach, Designing Women, Extraordinary Attorney Woo, Grey's Anatomy, Lou Grant, My So-Called Life, Murphy Brown, Remington Steele, and Scarecrow and Mrs. King    People Annie Potts, Barney Rosenzweig, Diane English, Eilish Zebrasky, Eugenie Ross-Leming, Geena Davis, Jean Smart, Juanita Bartlett, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Linda Bloodworth-Thomason, Melissa Roth, Neema Barnette, Sergio Perez, Sharon Gless, Shonda Rhimes, Stephanie Zimbalist, and Tyne Daly    Books  Backlash: The Undeclared War Against American Women by Susan Faludi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backlash:_The_Undeclared_War_Against_American_Women    Lou Grant: The Making of TV's Top Newspaper Drama by Douglass K. Daniel – https://www.goodreads.com/author/list/288376.Douglass_K_Daniel    CYNTHIA BEMIS ABRAMS AND ATVH ATVH Newsletter – tvherstory.com Website - https://cynthiabemisabrams.com/  Podcast Archive - tvherstory.com Email - advancedtvherstory@gmail.com Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/advancedtvherstory/ YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@advancedtvherstory X (Twitter) - https://twitter.com/tvherstory Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/Media.Cynthia Bluesky Social - https://bsky.app/profile/cynthiabemisabrams.bsky.social PRODUCTION Video - Nivia Lopez - https://nivialopez.com/ Audio - Marilou Marosz - https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariloumarosz/ Music - https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Jahzzar/  

On this week's episode, I have Writer/Showrunner Max Mutchnick from Will & Grace, The Wonder Years, and many many more. Tune in as we talk about his journey as a writer and what some of his creative goals and hopes are for the future.Show NotesMax Mutchnick on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0616083/Max Mutchnick on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maxmutchnick/?hl=enMax Mutchnick on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MaxMutchnickMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMax Mutchnick:By the way, I think Miley Cyrus is the only sitcom actor who is able to move the needle. They push you during sweeps. Can you get a Shatner? If we could get Shatner on Big Bang. I know we'll write, that's probably not a good example because it probably worked. But for the most part, shows just get what they get. They always get what they get. It doesn't matter. These co-stars and these, none of that mattered,Michael Jamin:Right?Max Mutchnick:Is it funny? And do you like the people? Do you like the people? Do you like what? They like the world of it?Michael Jamin:You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode. Today, I have a wonderful guest that no one deserves to hear. And yet, as a gift, if you're driving your car, pull over, you're going to want to hear this guy, this man and his writing partner, they are responsible for literally one of the biggest hits in the modern era. I'm talking about Will and Grace. This is the co-creator of Will and Grace Max. Much Nick, but lemme tell you what else he's done. All right. It's not just that. I'm going to run through his profile for a second and then I promise I'll let him get a word in edgewise. One word's Dennis Miller show. He was right around the Dennis Miller Show, the Wonder Years Good advice, the single Guy Dream on co-creator of Boston Common Co-creator of Good Morning, Miami Co-creator of Twins, co-creator of Four Kings. This guy's got a lot of work done. Shit, my dad says. Co-creator, partners co-Creator clipped, co-creator, and of course Will and Grace Max, welcome to the show. And let me tell you why this is so meaningful to me to have you hereMax Mutchnick:And me too, just to get an award in.Michael Jamin:Okay? I wonder if,Max Mutchnick:And by the way, those credits were in no particular order.Michael Jamin:Well, it is the IMDB order.Max Mutchnick:It's a weird order, but I'm still thrilled to be here. So I'm going to let you keep going because I like all this.Michael Jamin:Everyone loves having smoked Blunt.Max Mutchnick:It's fantastic.Michael Jamin:Let me tell you why it's so meaningful, because one of the very first jobs I had in Hollywood, I was a PA on a show called Hearts of Fire a max, and his partner writing partner David, were, I don't know if you guys were staff writers or story editors,Max Mutchnick:I think on Hearts of Fire, we were staff writers. I think we were staff writers. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So I'd get you lunch. That's basically it. But you guys were, you guys were so kind. You always let me in. I come into your office, you'd invite me into your office, which to me felt like a big deal. And you guys were both, to me, you were the epitome of what a comedy writer is supposed to be like larger than life, charismatic, funny, ball busting, but also just, I don't know, just energetic and enthusiastic and bursting with creativity and to be around you guys threeMax Mutchnick:Seconds away from tears at all times.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Oh yeah, thatMax Mutchnick:Too. But I mean, we maybe didn't show that to you, but again, I hate to interrupt you when you're saying all this nice stuff.Michael Jamin:Well, I do remember one time, David, I was sitting with you and he's like, what have you heard? I'm like, what have I heard? What do you hear? I'm like, dude, you guys are the only people who talk to me. What have I heard? Nothing.Max Mutchnick:That's so good. What have I heard? And I was listening to you, and by the way, it gives me nothing but joy to be here, and I have to do full disclosure. So I start watching you and listening to you, and this is what happens when you get to be 40 57. I said, I'm like, I know him. I have a feeling of love for him. I do not know how we know each other. It's so funny. I couldn't remember the show that we worked on. I couldn't remember the show we worked on. And then I heard you talking about Mike and Maddie. Yes. The other day. And it was, which isn't on my IMDB page.Michael Jamin:It is. I skipped over it. I didn't want to embarrassMax Mutchnick:You. Yeah, no, I'm glad that we can talk about that too. But it all started at Hearts of Fire.I mean, it's just unbelievable. And that was such an incredibly formative time, and it's so interesting to me that you had this experience of us is mean, and by and large, that's what we are. I mean, I always look back on life and I reflect on it, and I'm always happy when I look back on the things that I've done and where I've been and where I'm going and all that stuff. But today, not so much. What do you mean? Well, it's like I'm saying, when I'm in the moment of today, a lot of times I really can get wrapped up in being depressed about the business and where things are. And I am starting to say things that like old people say, and I don't want to, because I always thought I would never do that. I would never say the business isn't like it used to be. But I'mMichael Jamin:Surprised you even feel that way. You've already accomplished so much. I don't think I would ever get to your level of success. I would've stopped long before.Max Mutchnick:I mean, that's nice. And I know that there are people who are in my position who feel like they've done it. And definitely the collision of a career and social justice, which kind of took place with Will and Grace, the idea that we did this thing and that it had a reverberation on another level should be enough. But I am still a guy with ambition and drive, and I still feel like I have more to say, and I'm not spoiled in that sense. I really don't want to be done at this age. And if anything, my ego is in a better place because I can even fantasize about the idea of being in a room that I wasn't running, which is crazy because that's in the middle of my career when it's at that really hot space. It's like, oh no, I could never be in a room that I wasn't in charge of. But that's not how I feel so much. But theMichael Jamin:Hours are so long and exhausting and you're like, sure, I'll work till two in the morning every night. Well,Max Mutchnick:I couldn't. That's the one thing I would don't feel like that is something that ever needs to be the case. I'm way into having dinner with my family, and I feel like it's after 10:00 PM it's diminishing returns. I actually think after 8:00 PM it's diminishing returns because emotionally you get so your skin starts to break out. You're eating out of styrofoam, and it's just not, it's so bad for where you are. You have to just love the fucking show you're on. Can I say bad word? YouMichael Jamin:Can say, sure. You can say show.Max Mutchnick:You have to love where you are so much to be working late or own. ButMichael Jamin:How did you keep, were the hours good on Will and Grace?Max Mutchnick:Yes. Because we've run a meritocracy and we always have, and that is the best idea will out. So I don't care if it comes from a LB like Michael Jamin or if it comes from John Acquaintance, wherever the best idea and wherever the most honest idea that's organic to the characters comes, and that's the one we're going with. And I'm very, I think one of the things you master or you have to master to be a showrunner that works well and runs a tight ship is the ability to say no quickly and without a lot of ting. So I'm going to say no, and I'm going to say it quickly, and it's going to feel like it hits you hard, and maybe it does. But in order for us to run a tight ship, that's just the way that it has to go. Famously, one of the best showrunners of all time, David Crane, I guess really, it was very democratic and everybody got to talk and pitch, and he didn't cut things off fast. I mean, sometimes there's a German there and you've got to find it and tease it out and stuff like that. But for the most part, immediately, no, that's not the way that we're going. And no, that's not the way the character.Michael Jamin:And they had long hours in that show,Max Mutchnick:Very, very long hours. They famously worked really late. And I was also listening to you the other day talk about those schools of,Michael Jamin:And that's what I was going to get to.Max Mutchnick:Yeah. And you could say that you talked about, there's the Friends school. I think there's also the Diane English strain. Did you mention that one?Michael Jamin:No, I did. I only really mentioned the one that I thought I came from, I think I came from, which was Frazier. Cheers Taxi. Right.Max Mutchnick:And I call that that's the David Lloyd's, I mean,Michael Jamin:And Chris Lloyd, yeah. Okay. What would you say your lineage would be then? And do you agree with that?Max Mutchnick:Yes, I did. I agreed with everything you said. I mean, my lineage is actually, it's a must see TV sound. It's an NBC, it comes down, but that's really the friend sound. And I come from that because my first real job was on Dream on which Martin David created. And then I came in late. David and I came in late on that show, but I also come from the Diane English School because Michael Patrick King was such a giant influence in my sound,Michael Jamin:And that was good advice or whatMax Mutchnick:Good advice. But he had come from Murphy Brown. Right, of course. So if you worked at Murphy Brown, you prayed at the altar and English. I mean, but those friends people, they just spawned so much, soMichael Jamin:Much. But you don't run the show the way they did, though.Max Mutchnick:Not at all. No, not at all. Yeah. We learned as much on shows from what not to do than from what to do. The benefit of being on shows where there, it's just, and I'm not using David Crane as an example because I've never been in a room with him, but we have been in rooms where either we weren't used or there was just endless talk that went absolutely nowhere and the decisions weren't made to just, that's good. That's it. Put it up on the board. You can get there very fast and not like there is a famous school that I don't want to talk about that it's good enough. It's good enough. It's good. Enough's not what I'm talking about. I don't do, it's good enough. But there is a world of shows that's run with that ethos.Michael Jamin:See, I thought one of the first, the advice that we got when we started running shows was I think it was Steve Levitan who said, just pick away, even if it's wrong, pick away. Yes. Or you lose the room.Max Mutchnick:Yes. I mean, it's like you can fu around forever about, oh, what you want to do with your life. I don't necessarily know that this was what I was going to do, but it happened and I went for it, and I got rewarded at a certain point. I feel like if you get rewarded in something that you're doing within six months to 12 months, stay there.Michael Jamin:Were you running a show that wasn't your own, it was your first job at, or No,Max Mutchnick:I'm I'm rare. I'm rare in that regard that I was at Emerson in college, and my dear friend was a comic named Anthony Clark. And Anthony called me and said, they're making shows now in la and there's a company that's very focused on writers who have strong relationships with standup comics. And the company was Castle Rock. And Larry David was just making Seinfeld at that time. And the guy that ran the company with Rob Reiner was a wonderful man named Glenn Paddick. And he gave us our first break, but we had to go into Warren Littlefields office as these young guys and argue for why would I ever give a show on this golden network to two guys that have never done the job before? You've never run a show.Excuse me. I was on single guy. So I mean, I had worked, but I had never run a show. The first time I ran a show and I wasn't even close to running a show. I was a co-producer. And I went in there and I said to him after I got David Cohan a white shirt with a collar like, you have no idea. The Prince of a collar and a what? The difference that it makes put on a goddamn buttoned up shirt. And we go and we sit in there and I say to Mr. Littlefield, who I owe a great deal to, if you give me the keys to the car, I promise not to scratch the car. And if I scratch the car, you can take the keys away. You can bring in whoever you want. They can oversee me, but just give me, literally give me a week, give me a show, and I already know what to do and not to do, and I'll run this thing the right way.Michael Jamin:Wait, this was before you wrote the pilot? This was just to get the chance to,Max Mutchnick:We had written the pilot and they wanted to make it. Oh, okay. And then they said to our agents, or they said to Glenn Pad, Nick, these guys have no experience. You've got to go get showrunners. And I was just so anti the idea that someone was going to creatively be open, and I asked for the meeting and I begged him, and I kind of tell that story. And the whole truth of that story is a day or two before he went to our agent and said, I want someone at that table read who runs a show. I want an experienced showrunner in case at the pilot table read, they fall apart. And God bless the writing team of Roberto, Roberto Bebe and Carl Fink, even Fink, I think. And I could be getting that wrong, and I hope someone calls us out on it. But anyway, those guys were so cool. And they sat at the table read, and we got our notes, and then they walked up to us on the stage where we were shooting the show on Radford, and they were like, you got this boys, we'll see you later. And we never saw again. Really. And then we were show running.Michael Jamin:Did you bring top heavy writers to the firstMax Mutchnick:David's sister who wasn't the superstar,Michael Jamin:Right. That she's nowMax Mutchnick:WasMichael Jamin:I'm talking about your first staff I'm talking about.Max Mutchnick:Yes, I know. Yes. Really. And I don't know who the third one was. I remember there being, it was a mini room before. It was self-imposed before it was imposed on us. And it was just this very tiny group because David and I didn't know how to ate and do all that. And we figured we would do all of the heavy lifting, which was not possible. And we eventually brought in Carrie Lizer, but we started with a very, very tiny group of writers and just crawled our way through.Michael Jamin:Wow. Yes. It's cool. Should we spend the next 59 minutes talking about the single guy, or should we continue talking aboutMax Mutchnick:Your No, no. Can't talk about that show. But it was really cool to work with Ernest Borgne, and I'll just put it to you. Yes. What is the, I'm going to ask you a trivia question.Michael Jamin:JohnnyMax Mutchnick:What?Michael Jamin:Johnny was his name?Max Mutchnick:Yes. Wasn't it? Yes. I went to high school with him, so that's not, and his dad was Johnny Silverman's father was David Cohen's rabbi in real life. Oh, wow. But I mean, we lived in an industry town. That's what it was. But no, Ernest Borg nine, in addition to having a wife that was a cosmetics had of cosmetics Dynasty, Tova nine was the name of all the lotions and potions. Earnest Hemmingway, little known Borg. What?Michael Jamin:Borgnine, not Hemmingway. Not Hemmingway.Max Mutchnick:Shit, that would be so bad. Ernest Borgne had the best collection of what? Does anybody knowMichael Jamin:Doug?Max Mutchnick:No, no, no. He had a good one though.But moving on, he had the best collection of Abraham Lincoln memorabilia because on the weekends, he used to go to Beacons moving and he would sell off the dregs of whatever was left in a truck that people didn't pick up. And one time he went and he bought a painting, and it was of Abraham Lincoln, and he takes it to wherever, Sotheby's or Heritage, whatever he did. And it turns out to be one of only two portraits ever painted of Abraham Lincoln while he was in office. Wow. That started this epic collection. We've digressed into such boring stuff. And I blame you. IMichael Jamin:Blame you. I brought up,Max Mutchnick:You're running this room. You could cut me off at any point.Michael Jamin:No, I could not. But let me ask you this, though. You've created so many shows, and obviously the writers are the same. So what is it, why was Will Grace, why that one not the other ones? Why was that one that blew up?Max Mutchnick:Well, I think I have a glitch in my casting programming. I didn't know to second guess myself in the way that I did after Will and Grace. I mean, it's a great question because it is the thing that, if anything, it could be a regret in my life. It's that I haven't made great decisions at crunch time andMichael Jamin:Wait, so you think it was casting decisions, you think, but you don't get to catch.Max Mutchnick:You put it on the page, and then it's these brilliant actors that have to operate in a medium that's not respected, but possibly the hardest form of acting. And there are very, very few people that can do it as well as the ones that we know. And Jim Burrows always says it's lightning in a bottle.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it is.Max Mutchnick:So it's that, and it's less Moonves also being not great to me.Michael Jamin:Well, I mean, I was going to say, every casting decision has been approved by a million other people. It's not like you could, right?Max Mutchnick:I know. And you want to believe it at the time, and you get in there and you sell, and you do your thing. And then sometimes you don't believe in a person that's going into a cast, but Les has got a thing for that person, so they go in there. But by the way, that man gave me a lot of breaks, and he was good to me for a period in my life, but I also think he did some super fucked up things to our shows too. Partners should have stayed on the air, and he took partners off the air too quickly, and no one had done anything like that. And they should have explored a gay guy and a straight guy being best friends. That's an interesting area.Michael Jamin:What is it? But you guys mostly work in sitcom. I know you did some movie work, but is that just the form you wanted to be in? Is there any other itch you have?Max Mutchnick:No, not really. It just kept, I mean, we kept every few years when they say it's back, we want them, let's go to people that know how to make on that list. And I mean, I'm doing it again, by the way, since this strike is over, and I hope that they work.Michael Jamin:What you're taking outMax Mutchnick:Multicam Ideas couple. Yeah. Yeah. We're working on a couple of Multicam right now that I'm really excited about, but I would love to not do it anymore. I would love to not do it anymore.Michael Jamin:What do you mean you'd love to not do it? I don't understand. IMax Mutchnick:Would love to write what I think single camera comedies are, which is a beautiful, when it's done exquisitely. I think it's, if you write Fleabag, that's like the masterpiece.Michael Jamin:It was a masterpiece, but it was a play. I remember watching you go, this is a play.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, but you can't, I don't know. You can't knock it like that. It doesn't, oh,Michael Jamin:It's not a knock. I mean, it's a compliment. I mean, these long monologues, and it's just not done. ButMax Mutchnick:She still was so brilliant that she figured out, she figured something out about how to make great fuckingMichael Jamin:Episodes. Oh, listen, we're on the same page. I was a masterpiece fricking masterpiece. And what I like about it is that it does feel like a play to me. It's really, it's conversational and it's intimate and brave. It's courageous, man. Man.Max Mutchnick:I think it's the final 20 minutes of the second season. I think that it, it'd be hard pressed to find a better single camera comedy ever written. Yeah, I agree. From the moment the priest shows up at her apartment to sleep with her. And I think that goes straight to the end. I don't know. Beat for beat where I've ever seen it, where I've ever watched a better script.Michael Jamin:How do you feel when you watch something like that? What does that do to you? Because you're a professional writer with a huge, great track record. How does that make you feel?Max Mutchnick:I only have that attitude of the more, the merrier. It's only good to me if you're asking me in a coded way, am I ever jealous of somethingMichael Jamin:A little? Yeah.Max Mutchnick:I mean, yeah. Would I like to have created the bear? Sure. Yes. But I'm more proud of Chris store and impressed that I know him, and I love, and I love that that happens. I mean, I get more offended by the bad stuff. I just can't stand the bad stuff, the good stuff. I'm like, God damn, that's exciting. That got made, and somebody left that writer alone and their vision was carried through to the end.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael. If you like my content, and I know you do because listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michael jamin.com and now back to What the hell is Michael Jamin talking aboutWill and Grace, you could tune in an episode, and you knew you were in for some big, big laughs every episode. And I don't know, you were inviting these friends into your home every week. That's what it felt like. You were inviting your friends over. And there's an art to that.Max Mutchnick:Yes. And there's an art to picking the best writers that money can buy, which is what Will and Grace always had. I mean, the star power in the writing room at Will and Grace was spectacular. And I mean, to a person, it had the best run of writers, but the only time it went off the rails is if the heart got taken out of a story. And if the heart wasn't there, then the thing didn't hold up. That's right. And so you have to lay a foundation in the first act and make sure that all that stuff is true and real at the beginning. And then you can go kind of wherever you want in the second act. Then you can get nuts and then resolve in a very real way. But if you don't actually start from a true place of, oh my God, I cannot believe you are sleeping with my brother, that hurts me so much. Why? Because you're mine. Whatever that story is, you want to just hit those notes that everybody understands.Michael Jamin:Now, when you rebooted Will and Grace, did you bring back the entire writing stuff?Max Mutchnick:We didn't bring back everybody, but brought back most everybody.Michael Jamin:And what's shocking about that you had this amazing writing staff and that they were available.Max Mutchnick:We had to be patient. We had to work a little bit of magic. And I also think, I mean, it's embarrassing for NBC, but David and I had out of pocket some fees.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? You wanted them that bad?Max Mutchnick:But it's worth it. It's worth it. It's like, oh, you, you're going to stop at 25 k an episode for this wildly talented person and for their integrity, and they need it to be 27 5. It's like, take it out of mine.Michael Jamin:Right.Max Mutchnick:And we had to give you the full truth on that. It was more with crew. With Crew that we did that.Michael Jamin:Did you want your old crew?Max Mutchnick:Yeah. I mean, there are people that you want, you want the show to sound the same and you want,Michael Jamin:What was it like bringing it back though, for you as a creator? ItMax Mutchnick:Was incredible, honestly. It was such an incredible thing. I mean, we brought it back thinking that Hillary Clinton was going to be president. And the twisted irony is that the game show host won the office, but it ended up really giving us stuff to write to, because if you're just preaching to the third that you have, it's like, what's fun about that? ButMichael Jamin:To me, I guess I'm interested in your characters are now much older. And now I wouldn't have thought when Will Grace ended? I'm not really thinking about where they're going to be years from now. I'm just done thinking about them.Max Mutchnick:I know, and it kind of did have a finality to it, but I mean, I've told the story, but the set was at Emerson. How was it? And it was done, and they were done with the installation, and it was getting moved back on a flatbed to la. And my husband and I were in London, and I was bereft about the way the election was going and sitting in the back of a cab, I said to him, if I had the show, I would have Karen training Rosario on a rock climbing wall. I would do a story about, you're going to go back to Mexico, but then you're going to climb back in after you go back. Right. And I just wanted that to see that visual of Shelly Morrison on a rock climbing wall and caring training her, and in response to him, those horrible policies. And Eric said to me, well, honey, why don't you just go do something about it and make it the set's where it is? All the actors are where they are, and they were amenable. Thank God, God bless them for doing that, because it didn't have to go that way. It wasMichael Jamin:Easy.Max Mutchnick:It was much easier than you would think to bring it all back together.Michael Jamin:Right. That's with the rebuilding. That's so interesting. When you guys are coming up with show ideas, I mean, are they just coming to you? Are you always coming up with ideas or is it like, okay, we got to come up with an idea?Max Mutchnick:No, I mean, I'm coming up with ideas all the time until someone pays me and then all of a suddenMichael Jamin:Nothing. Can't thinkMax Mutchnick:Of anything. Yeah. It's like, I don't know. I can't sleep. I mean, do you sleep? I don't turn. My brain doesn't shut off. And so I'm always kind of thinking about stuff. And by the way, we've written some of the things that I love the most that we've ever done. They've never seen the light of day. And I think that one of the little twisted crimes of our industry is the fact that agents and studios, if they have any sense that you've written something ago, that you wrote it back when they don't want to, it's like a loaf of bread or something like that, as opposed to a piece of art that it is still relevant. It still makes sense. These characters are vibrant and exist, but it feels like used goods even if it's never anywhere.Michael Jamin:And so you guys, your partner, you meet every day and you're coming up with ideas, or even when you're not,Max Mutchnick:I'm very good that way. I don't feel like I can stop and I don't want to stop. Dave is arguably a happier person, and he doesn't feel the same desire to beat himself to death. That's what it's, yeah. But we've had a dynamic for mean our daughters are very, very close, which Oh, really? A gift of life for both of us. But always, I mean, I say this in front of him and behind his back, our relationship has that lovely Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin, sort of one of us is in love with the other one, and one of us doesn't care. And Dave's just like, but he's my brother. So he's not like he's going anywhere. But it's just like, stop trying so fucking hard. I get a little sweaty when I don't need to.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, you've had so much success. It occurred to me. I just remember one time I was over at your place once, I don't remember where you were living, but I remember you had Enya on.Max Mutchnick:It's so crazy. So wait, I'm going to make my relationship to Enya. I'm going to bring it back to writing sitcoms because Okay. My anxiety has always been a present part of who I am and what you referred to as the fun of coming into my office. Yeah, you're right. But it's driven by a kind of anxiety and on, I guess it would've been good advice for Michael Patrick King. I was having such heavy, crazy anxiety. Anxiety to the point of passing out anxiety that I had to go every time we had a break down to my car and listen to Anya on AC cd.Michael Jamin:Is it because you're worried you're going to be fired? Is that whyMax Mutchnick:I just didn't have that? There's a, that very scary moment of existing in a writing room of what your output is. Like Jeff Astrof, by the way, such an incredible writer in a room, such a good room person. But he lives by the thing. If I don't put a joke into that script today, I can't go to bed tonight. And that drives a person. And I just was in these, so you have to get, but Michael Petra king got me a little bit more comfortable with, I listen to you sometimes and I watch you construct comedy on the fly, and I am impressed with it. And I think, what the fuck? Can't I still do that? But I tap into something different. I tap into a different thing because I think life just across the board, other than rape and cancer and Israel is pretty much, everything is funny. And I feel really good about exploring the most uncomfortable truths of my life, and that's where I get the stuff from. But I wasn't there. I wasn't there, and certainly not at the beginning. And Dave Cohan comes from such a pedigree family that it was second nature to him to just construct really clever wordplay and stuff like that. And I was really panicked about that at the beginning.Michael Jamin:Interesting. Because you know that in the room of writers, if I'm going to choose a team of writers and I have eight picks, the first eight are story people, not joke people.Max Mutchnick:And that's that generic question you ask a writer when you interview them. So what do you think you're best at story or, well, really good at story, right? They're really good at story.Michael Jamin:You're good at stories.Max Mutchnick:You can tell a fucking story.Michael Jamin:None of you'reMax Mutchnick:Good. It's crazy. It's crazy how many people can't tell a story or the joke thing of you want to say to people and you don't. It's like, okay, close your eyes. Go to the table, put that joke in the actor's mouth and tell me the response that you hear. Do you actually hear people laughing at those words? Because that's how I always do it. I'm like, and then it becomes second nature. Yeah, that sounds right. They will make ew. She'll make ew funny. That will get a laugh. That will get a laugh. But it's always shocking to me like the clunkiness sometimes that's pitched and it's like, that's not going toMichael Jamin:Work. Yeah. Yeah. How funny. How funny.Max Mutchnick:And if I'm calm and you got time, it's like you can try to get it, but you want a Michael Jamin in your room to just give it to you. Done.Michael Jamin:Oh, give it to me. Done. It's so interesting. Go starting out. I was just a joke guy. And then you won't keep your job long if that's all you understand, right?Max Mutchnick:No, you have to be able to, because you go to that run through and the entire back half of that story falls apart. So you have to be a technician to say, if you do this and you do that, the back half will, as we say, it's an F 12, it will write itself. It never does that, unfortunately. But I will tell you this, speaking of that, during all of this AI and the strike, and my writer's assistant that's been with me for a very long time, and I won't say his name because he hates that he's a writer's assistant, but he's incredible. A friend gave him a Will and Grace, an AI written Will and Grace.Michael Jamin:Oh, andMax Mutchnick:I mean, this is the upsetting part.Michael Jamin:No, don't go there. Don't say any of this. What isMax Mutchnick:It? I know. I mean, but the truth is, it's like, well, if this is what came to me, if I sent a team off, if I sent a group off and I said, Karen and Jack are going to have a garage sale, bring me back that story. I want two, I mean, I'd break the scenes with them, but two scenes of the first act, two scenes in the second act, it's AB story. Bring that back to me. It wasn't like it was so far off.Michael Jamin:Wasn't so far off. So better than staff writer.Max Mutchnick:This isMichael Jamin:Scary.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, no, I know. I mean, I don't know. It's like if it was in front of me, we could even read it, but I don't have it. I don't want to give any credit to that, but I'm going to name drop. But I told that story to Norman Lear at dinner not too long ago, and he told me that someone had done it for him too on, I think it was on all of the Family. And I believe that we agreed that it wasn't an abomination.Michael Jamin:This makes me sick a little bit.Max Mutchnick:Oh, it's sickening. Yeah, completely sickening. Because it calls 246 episodes of Will and Grace. It figures out what those people sound like. I mean, look, if I delivered, I wouldn't deliver it at a table read. It would still, it would be that thing that I was talking about. There wouldn't be laughs. It didn't have, it didn't have heart construction. Yeah, but good enough. Yeah, but it could go right. That's a callback number 56 onMichael Jamin:Callback. Good enough. I posted about James Burrows yesterday about what he said. I dunno if you saw,Max Mutchnick:Oh, I did. And we should talk about that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What's, because he basically said, and I think it was misinterpreted a little, that there are, there's only about 30 great writers to do sitcoms. And what I think he meant was 30 great showrunners or potential showrunners, not writers. ButMax Mutchnick:Yeah, I absolutely didn't agree with him. And you started to talk about it, and then always, I kind of turn you off about five minutes, but I will say this, it's like you hit on exactly what it is. The reason why we like it is because Multicam are the comfort Food of America. I mean, that is the show. You want your kid, when they come home from school, turn on an episode of friends and watch that thing, and then dinner will be ready and it goes down easy and you love it. You even can know where it's going, and it's still satisfying. But I didn't agree with Jim, and I hope that he was misquoted because I am not sure that it's over because of how much it's actually liked by Go ahead and create. Everybody loves Raymond and I dare America to not want to watch it.Michael Jamin:Well, okay, growing up, there was a show called Small Wonder. It was one of these syndicated whatever. And I would watch that. And I said to my partner recently, I was like, how come we can't get on small wonder? Where are those shows put on Small wonder? I'd rather be happy working on Small Wonder. But they don't exist.Max Mutchnick:Well, no one programs that way anymore. I still believe if someone made the commitment, I mean, they must have papered this out somewhere, but I always think, shit, if I ran a network, I would ask the higher ups. Can I please develop sitcoms from eight to 10, put them on the air, and will you give me a guarantee that I get to put them on the air for two years straight, all four of them? Because it doesn't happen like a movie. It doesn't happen. I mean, you try really hard, but it's a fluke to get anybody to get a pilot off the ground in that a scene. They don't know anybody. Right. It's the hardest thing in the world. But I believe that if Multicam, I believe that they weren't driven by star casting because star casting always fucks up a multicam. Of course, there are examples of big stars that have made shows work like Charlie and Julia even. But I mean, there's that list of names that if we weren't being recorded, I would just say it's all these fucking famous people that aren't funny. AndMichael Jamin:Wait, is it because you think they get executive producer and they give notes and they change it? They make the show what they want it to be, you mean?Max Mutchnick:Yeah. I mean, I don't give a shit about that, but that's all bad. Jim Burrows, though, won't allow that, which is a gift, though. The world is so changed that if Miley Cyrus wants to do a sitcom, by the way, I think Miley Cyrus is the only sitcom actor who is able to move the needle. They push you during sweeps. Can you get a Shatner? If we could get Shatner on Big Bang, I know we'll write, that's probably not a good example because it probably worked. But for the most part, shows just get what they get. They always get what they get. It doesn't matter. These co-stars and these, none of that matters,Michael Jamin:Right? No.Max Mutchnick:Is it funny? And do you like the people? Do you like the people? And do you like the world that they're in?Michael Jamin:That's what actually, and that is a good segue to what I wanted to talk about as well. Shit, my dad says, you guys were on the forefront. That was a Twitter popular What? ItMax Mutchnick:Was the first one.Michael Jamin:Right? The first ones. So I'm saying you were on the forefront. You were the first ones who did that. And I remembering because it was based on the Twitter feed, I remember thinking, is this what's going on now? And yes. Yes, it is.Max Mutchnick:I know. I mean, it's funny. I remember when I was a kid and all of a sudden in the music scene, there was punk rock. And I remember being a worried Jewish boy saying to my mother, ma, I think punk rock's going to ruin the world. I think punk rock's going to ruin the world. And it was like all of a sudden, Twitter, a Twitter account, a tweet for Justin Alper. Brilliant. I mean, creator Elementary with Pat Schumacher, and this was Justin's, it was his account, but at a beginning, middle to an end, when you heard it, it was just like, shit, my dad says, it's just like, well, inside that line, speaking of Hemmingway, the best story, the shortest story ever written.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What is it?Max Mutchnick:Baby Shoes for Sale, never Worn.Michael Jamin:Right? Right.Max Mutchnick:They might be out of order, but those are the words I think, and shit my dad says was like, oh my God. You know exactly what that is. That's a son with being embarrassed by a father that he loves. So it was all there. It was there. Yeah.Michael Jamin:But if, I don't know, was there ever a moment like now, sure. Oh, this guy, this person has a big Twitter feed. Yes, bring him in. Let's talk with them. Right. But was there a moment when you were doing this? Are we really basing a show on a Twitter feed? I mean, I know you saw more, but I would've been worried.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, yeah. But it was literary. I mean, I don't know. Justin was just so sharp and smart, and there were ideas immediately, so it didn't feel hacky at all. But by the way, I will say this, it was one of the handful of terrible, deadly fatal casting mistakes that I made in giving the job of the Sun to the actor that we did when the actor of the hundreds of people that we read for that part, there was only one guy who came in and he was a slam dunk, and he was the one, and he was the only one of all the 500 men that read for the part that Bill Shatner said, that's the guy. And that guy was David Rum, HoltzMichael Jamin:Rum,Max Mutchnick:David m, it was so there in the room. Yeah. I forgot it was him. He understood everything. And I brought some of my own bullshit to it, and so did everybody else. David didn't, he didn't look like we wanted it. Look, we wanted a cuter person and all kind of stuff.Michael Jamin:Pretty, it's so funny. We did a show with him years later. Crummy Sweet kid, sweet guy. Interesting.Max Mutchnick:Wow. Forgot about that. Yeah. Such a talented guy. Such talentedMichael Jamin:Guy. Yeah. Interesting.Max Mutchnick:And a brother in neurosis.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me talk about that, because you tend to put yourself into the characters you write. And how hard is that is difficult for you? Does everyone know that it's you, IMax Mutchnick:Guess? I think so. I mean, well, I only tell the stories in first person. I mean, I don't say, I have a friend who had sex with a Chauffeur for Music Express. I tell the story about what I did and how embarrassing it was and what I did and what I did to recover from it. And I got very comfortable with that. And it's made it possible to tell a lot of stories because that's what I have.Michael Jamin:But on the flip side, are you sometimes protective of the character when someone else pitches an idea and Well, I wouldn't do that. Well, it's not you. It's,Max Mutchnick:Oh my God. No. If it feels true, and it sounds true, I completely, I mean, I'm not going to go back on what I said. If your story is fantastic and it's not nuts, I mean, I want to tell that I want tell that story. Right? I mean, those are the ones that I, the ones that really like are like, oh, Jesus Christ, that's so uncomfortable. That's so uncomfortable and so awkward. And we have to do that. We have to tell that story.Michael Jamin:Did you start on your shows that you run, do you start every morning with like, Hey, what's everybody up to? Are you trying to pull stories out of people, personal storiesMax Mutchnick:We call a host chat?Michael Jamin:Is that what you called it? Yeah,Max Mutchnick:We call a host chat, because when I first started out, I knew I had a rundown of, I think Regis. Regis and who is Frank ER's wife?Michael Jamin:Kathy Lee.Max Mutchnick:Kathy Lee. Kathy Lee. And it's called Host Chat, by the way. It might've been on,Michael Jamin:Mike Madia was called that as well. Yeah. Yeah.Max Mutchnick:I mean, that's where it comes from. It doesn't come from Regis, it comes from that. And David, and I mean, it's arguably sometimes the best part of the day.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, it's funny. You guys set up Mike and Maddie, and then you bounced off that show probably in a matter of months. And then I took, I took the job that you vacated and I was thrilled. And with you was, I dunno. For me, it was like, oh my God, this is this giant opportunity. And you guys, this is your temporary gig.Max Mutchnick:Oh, well, it wasn't a temporary gig. It was a fall from Grace. I mean, I think we had already been working, something was going on in our career, either we were in between agents or something, but that was an absolute blight. I mean, it was terrible. That experience.Michael Jamin:And why, what was it For me,Max Mutchnick:We were WGA primetime,Michael Jamin:And that was not all ofMax Mutchnick:Sudden we're writing a strip bullshit show with two hosts that hate each other. And I mean, a great thing came out of it though, the first week of the run of those shows, David Cohan is in all of the sketches.Michael Jamin:Oh, I didn't know that.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, David, we wrote him into the sketches. He played kind of this dumb PA character, and we would do these cold opens that they could never make them work. They could never make work because Maddie couldn't act. And Mike was always frustrated. But Dave's in them, they're online, I believe, and they're pretty funny.Michael Jamin:Oh my God. HowMax Mutchnick:Funny. Yeah, it's incredible.Michael Jamin:And so I guess going forward, as I take up a lot of your time here, what do you see going forward with the industry? I don't know. What does it lookMax Mutchnick:Like to you? That's one thing I won't do. It's the more I realize how little I know kind of thing. I believe this. I believe that good shows always will out. They will always happen. And even in spite of the system. So I think that that can happen. But I don't know. I'll tell you, in six months, I can come back and we'll talk about whether the multicam that I have in the hopper right now, if they work and if they get on the schedule, because things just, it just doesn't happen anymore.Michael Jamin:People think, yeah, people, when you're in it, you're made well, your next job is never guaranteed.Max Mutchnick:I don't like that 50 something year old guy that doesn't work anymore. I don't want to be that. I don't that person and I can be okay. I guess reflecting, looking back on, I tried really hard and I kind of want to, this might be embarrassing, but I really would like to show myself that I have not disconnected from the popular culture that I can tap into the way people feel still. And I'm not just a guy making dad jokes. I mean, I'm not that guy anyway. My daughters, that's not their experience. So it is just a matter of can I get the system to work on my behalf?Michael Jamin:What do you tell young writers trying to break in then giveMax Mutchnick:Advice that there's always room for one more. I mean, I still feel that way, but I feel like you've got to be, if you get on a show, I think the goal is to parrot the showrunner.Yes. Make the sound that he's making. Don't make some other weird Crispin Glover sound. Make the sound that he's making, and then improve upon that act. It's like actors that you hire to do a guest spot on a show, and they kill it, and you hire them, and then they get on the floor and they give you something else. It's like, no, no, no. Do exactly the thing that we hired you for. So a writer, it's like, I read your spec script. I love it. I love your tone. I loved talking to you. And by the way, in that meeting, I'm thinking as much about what's it going to be like to do post chat with this person and do anything else? Because I don't know that I should say this, but I will because I don't stop myself. A lot of times when we meet writers, we read them after we met them,Michael Jamin:You read 'em afterMax Mutchnick:They have a thing. If they're in the system to the point that the studio and the network are saying, oh yeah, we love this person. We think this person is great. This person's just come out of NYU. We think you'll help this person. Right? You've got to meet this guy, or you've got to meet this woman, this human. I sit down with them and then it's like, okay, you are,Michael Jamin:I wouldn't trust anything they say, though. That's the thing. Why? What do you mean? Well, because you got to meet this writer, and they're like, but I don't think they know what I'm looking for in a writer. That's the thing.Max Mutchnick:But it's like both have equal power in the hiring. So it's like you meet them, do I like them? You can read a script and then all of a sudden you imbue all the stuff that, and they're just like, Ugh. They're a drip. And they're not cool. And they're not easy to talk to. I mean, by the way, mean if the script's brilliant, you're going to hire them. But well,Michael Jamin:Also, I imagine we're also intimidated by your success too. It's not easy to sit opposite you guys,Max Mutchnick:But we try really hard to pull that out of the room as fast as we can because it gets in the way. And like I said, it's like I won't really comment on our position in the world and that kind of stuff. I just can't even think about that. If someone's coming in to talk to us, I feel as much want them to. I'm still the same as my husband says, everybody has diarrhea. It's like, I want them to like me.Michael Jamin:You still sob to Enya?Max Mutchnick:Yes. That I don't do anymore. I do. I'm a little bit my spine's illustrator. I don't have one way of doing anything is really the moral of the whole.Michael Jamin:Wow, max, I'm so appreciative that you took the time. I don't know, just to talk because oh my God, you have so much wisdom to share. It's just so interesting to hear your journey, and I don't know.Max Mutchnick:It is a joy to talk to you, and I don't usually enjoy these things as much as I have that says everything about you, andMichael Jamin:It's atMax Mutchnick:Ease. Yeah. I mean, you're just easy and good and smart and everything. A lot. I mean, your commentary throughout the strike was just fantastic and on point. And you were putting yourself out there in a way. AndMichael Jamin:Ballsy is what IMax Mutchnick:Ballsy. Ballsy. Yes, that's right. I mean, one gets scared making things when you have, I guess you don't have that much to lose.Michael Jamin:That's pretty much it. That's pretty much it. Yeah.Max Mutchnick:So can you just tell me before we say goodbye? Yeah. What are you working on?Michael Jamin:Well, we're going to talk more. We're done talking. Okay.Max Mutchnick:Okay. So do you want to wrap it up? Do we sing or what do we do?Michael Jamin:Yeah. We hug virtually and we tell everyone to be their best creative versions of themselves.Max Mutchnick:That's exactly right.Michael Jamin:Encourage people. There's roomMax Mutchnick:For one more.Michael Jamin:I love that. There's room for one more. So if you're listening always. Yeah.Max Mutchnick:No matter what it is. And God damn, I wish I could sing the theme for, I mean, if you have your sound engineer, why don't you just have your sound engineer fade in the theme from the Mike and Maddie show written by Charles Luman.Michael Jamin:MicMax Mutchnick:Shine. It's a beautiful day in America.Michael Jamin:I'm not paying for that needle drop. I got my own music. HeMax Mutchnick:Doesn't need the money.Michael Jamin:I'll talk to him. Okay. All right. Thank you again, max. I really appreciate it, Janet. Yeah. Okay. And don't go anywhere. Alright everyone, we got another more great episodes. Wasn't that interesting talk? He's a great guy. Go watch him. Go watch Will and Grace again. It's ageless. Alright, thanks so much everyone, until next week.So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com /webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

In this episode Diane English, multiple Writers Guild Award and Emmy Award winner and creator of numerous half hour comedy shows including ‘Murphy Brown,' talks about growing up in a mixed Italian-English family, fish Fridays, traditional Italian Christmases and English Easters, and the family's English master bakers. She remembers discovering Jewish food with her best friend, and, later, her determination to become a writer. Moving to New York City, with no phone in a one room apartment, led to writing jobs on WNET, writing awards, and ultimately ‘Murphy Brown' with great stories about the show's creation and its major influence on the culture. Don't forget to follow all of the social media!   @Sarandon_Chris on Twitter  @TheOfficialChrisSarandon on Instagram  Chris Sarandon on Facebook   www.chrissarandon.com  linktr.ee/theofficialchrissarandon Subscribe on Youtube at https://youtube.com/shorts/-vGUyj0TK-Q --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/cookingbyheartpodcast/support

Love & War WAS a show. It's basically what happens when Diane English, the legendary creator of Murphy Brown, makes a sitcom in the 80s rom-com style of movies like When Harry Met Sally. Love & War is about rough around the edges New York City newspaper columnist Jack Stein (Jay Thomas) and his attempts at romance—first in an on-again off-again relationship with restaurateur Wally Porter (Susan Dey), and then after a second season retooling, in a will-they or won't-they with chef Dana Palladino (Annie Potts). Brynn, Aaron and Barry head on down to The Blue Shamrock (that's the dive bar / fancy restaurant where it takes place!) to break the fourth wall (which they initially do but then stop doing!) to speak right to you, the audience, about why this show got sent back to the kitchen. Visit our website! thatwasashow.com Email: thatwasashow@aol.com (Because 90s AOL still exists for some reason!) Follow us on Instagram @thatwasashow Merch: redbubble.com/people/thatwasashow Hosted by: Brynn Byrne @brynnabyrne Aaron Yeger @aaronyeger Andrew “Barry” Helmer @andrewhelmer Podcast logo and artwork by Brian Walker @briguywalker

Dawn DeKeyser on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0215245/Dawn's Website - https://www.dawndekeyser.comMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistTranscripts Are Auto-GeneratedMichael Jamin:I've made a number of posts about this that yeah, put yourself in a box. People are like, But I don't wanna be in a box. Put yourself in a box and you'll worry about getting outta the box later. But right now, you need to sell yourself as who? This is what you are. What do I do? That's right. That'sDawn DeKeyser:Right. And, and so many new writers are still struggling with that. And I said, People cannot help you if they don't know where to put you.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jam. Hey everybody, this is Michael Jamin and you're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear this. Mike cohost Phil Hudson. He's got the day off again. He's doing some more work behind the scenes, but I'm here interviewing the amazingly talented Dawn de Kaiser. And, uh, Dawn, let me tell, tell everybody who you are. Let me also you, I need to remind you who you are.Dawn DeKeyser:Okay? Please doMichael Jamin:So. You got a long history of writing some pretty great shows. So first you started, I guess, on All American Girl. That was the Margaret Cho show you did Ink Ted Danson. Remember that one? I remember that one. News Radio you wrote a news radio you wrote on All right, already, which I did not know. I guess you wrote with Steven Engel on that one. I didn't know that. Conrad Bloom, you know, I went to, uh, I went to uh, college with him. We were friends in college, Mark Fostein. Um, but I haven't talked to him since. And then the Gina Davis show starring who, who started that? Uh, the Becker Becker again. Ted Danson. Let's listen to these credits you got there was amazing. Uh, just for kicks. Ugly Betty. We know Betty Lafa, Samantha, who if I were on that show, I would've been insufferable because someone would've said, Yeah, I I have an idea. What if Samantha goes on a date? And I would've been like, Samantha, who? That would've been my joke all every day. Sign sealed. Oh, I skip on the client list. Sign sealed, delivered, hit Streak. The Gourmet Detective Summer. Love the Good Witch. Thank you, John. Thank you so much. Look at me. Are you impressed with how much work?Dawn DeKeyser:I am so impressed at. Who knew? I had no idea.Michael Jamin:You've done a lot of you. So anyway, I thank you so much for joining because, uh, is, we've never worked together. I always, even though I've known you for years, I always figured we would work together at some point. We just never did. And I blame you for that.Dawn DeKeyser:I, uh, I, blame me, we were on the same studio a lot. We were like, Yeah. Next to we had bungalows next to each other. Mm-hmm. . So that counts completely is, Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah. You were always a familiar face.Dawn DeKeyser:But before we start, can I curse?Michael Jamin:I don't Sure. Why, why would you, Is there something you wanna get off your chest? ?Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah. No, just that in the course of talking, it's gonna play a part of describing my path in life and Oh yeah. I don't think I could do it without some gods and fucks. SoMichael Jamin:Do it. Do it up.Dawn DeKeyser:Okay.Michael Jamin:Cause I we're getting to the truth again. So let's begin. How did you become? Where did you start? How did you get into sit? Everyone wants to know how people get into sitcom writing or TV writing. So how did you get in?Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah, so, and we all come from different angles on different paths. And in order to get to my TV days, I'll just say a little bit about my background. I was raised in a military family and my dad was a fighter pilot. And I grew up in a very great Sani kind of house. Um, I, I say I was the best son my dad ever had because I was tough and competitive. And I weighed 92 pounds and I was pious.Michael Jamin:Wait, did, were you the only child?Dawn DeKeyser:No, I had two sisters. So my mom, who was lovely, she would dress my sisters and I all in matching dresses, hats, gloves and shoes. And we would march out onto the tarmac and salute the F four phantoms as they landed.Michael Jamin:Wow. And so, and so you moved around the country then? Probably?Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah, I was born in Japan and I lived in England.Michael Jamin:Oh my. And so your Okay. Military brat. And then when you say Great Santa, cuz your dad was strict. Oh, is Now, do you wanna start cursing now? What did you want to curse?Dawn DeKeyser:Um, well, let's see. He, we did have a flow chart of our chores on our bedrooms. And when we were, I think starting at three and four and our beds had to be made with hospital corners really. And we would have to stand in a line, add attention and get, you know, understand what our chores were gonna be for the day and for the week.Michael Jamin:Because you are so not that you're so, you know, kind of almost soft spoken, very gentle. You're very warm energy. You're not , you're not a, you know, uh,Dawn DeKeyser:It's taken a long time to get this outta my system. So when I was in junior high, we moved from England to Texas and I went from riding English, um, horseback to competing in rodeos. And I then started racing sailboats. And by college I was on the varsity team. And, um, by the way, I paid my way through college, working two or three jobs each semester. And I started working when I was 15. That's a little Rob Cohen of me. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Wait, where did you go to school?Dawn DeKeyser:Um, which time? Uh, I went to, so in college I went to the University of Texas and I studied international business, Uhhuh. And then I dropped out of UT and moved to Belgium where I worked at a division of NATO for, for,Michael Jamin:I feel like you might speak a lot of languages. Do you speak how many languages you speak?Dawn DeKeyser:Um, I used to speak French when I worked in the warehouse with the Belgians. Right. Um, and then, you know, when my other girlfriends were cheerleaders and all that, I was treasurer of the Latin Club. I don't mean to brag.Michael Jamin:Wow. So you speak Latin. I knew you spoke. What?Dawn DeKeyser:And, and so then I, after dropping out, I went back and I finished up my degree in, uh, appropriately named a BS in advertising. And that's, that's really when I started my writing career. And, um, let's see, what did I do? So I started,Michael Jamin:You worked in advertising.Dawn DeKeyser:So I got to work on tv, radio, and print. And in fact, my first assignment was writing, uh, dozens of scripts for David Brener for TacoMichael Jamin:Bell. That was your work. Now I, now I know your work. .Dawn DeKeyser:That's what I'm known for. Um, so getting closer to the TV part, I was living in Dallas. My boyfriend was discovered by a talent manager, and he immediately moved out to LA and became a successful actor.Michael Jamin:Do we know his name?Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah. I went, I'll I'll say it. I mean, it was a long time ago. So Tom Hayden Church.Michael Jamin:Oh, I did not know that. Okay.Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah. And so he, his confidence and his uniqueness was just like he broken right away. Mm-hmm. . And I went on to New York and in advertising, which I loved. And you know, after a while, after about two years, I thought maybe I could write something longer than 30 seconds. Mm-hmm. . So I took writing classes at night. I did improv, which I was terrible at because of that. Let's revisit the military background. I am not spontaneous.Michael Jamin:You're not supposed to go off script when you're in the military.Dawn DeKeyser:Oh. Oh, no. And I'm very methodical and you know, by this time I was like mid to late twenties and I guess I was having a quarter life crisis and thinking, what, what am I, what do I wanna do and what do I love doing? I loved writing and I loved sitcoms more than anything. Um, I didn't know how to do that. I called Tom, who was at the time on Wings, that was his first series. And I said, Could you send by now my ex-boyfriend? And I said, Could you send me the writer's draft through a producing draft? I wanna see the transition mm-hmm. of how this writing is done. And so then I started taping my favorite shows and then doing the stop and pause on the VHS tape.Michael Jamin:Like really studying how long a scene would be, how what the act breaks are everything. Huh.Dawn DeKeyser:All that. The dialogue, the, and I would map out the beats on a notepad, which by the way, I still write on old fashioned paper notepads for everything. And then I transfer it to the computer. Wow.Michael Jamin:That's old school.Dawn DeKeyser:That is old school. And it is all about the ritual. And like, I think there's something about the the brain to the heart to the hand that gets on paper that I, I don't get when I write.Michael Jamin:But you could, you must be able to read your handwriting. Cause I can't read my handwriting. I couldn't even try.Dawn DeKeyser:I no, I can't. I can get the gist of it.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? Okay.Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah. Um, so Tom sent me a series of one of one script and, um, I was writing my own two spec scripts. And then I moved to LA with $3,000 in cash.Michael Jamin:And where, what I always, I I have to What part in LA did you live at first?Dawn DeKeyser:I lived Endless Field, which was being hailed as the New West Village of LA and it is not. And I was living right on Vermont Avenue and I slept on my bathrobe for the first two weeks until my stuff came from New York.Michael Jamin:But you had a place all by yourself or you have roommates?Dawn DeKeyser:Uh, no, I had a place to myself. I mean, it was $700 for one.Michael Jamin:Mm-hmm. . That sounds about right. That's a good deal actually. Uh, even then, that's a good deal. So, okay. And then, and then how did you find a, how did you finally get work?Dawn DeKeyser:So I was writing these spec scripts and I sent them them to Bill Diamond and Mike Sal. Mm-hmm. . And when I moved out to LA, they were my first meeting.Michael Jamin:But How did you know them?Dawn DeKeyser:Through Tom? Because they were baby writers on the show. Oh,Michael Jamin:Right. Yeah.Dawn DeKeyser:And they said, you know, we thought you were just gonna be some gal who want, who had this idea of writing for sick homes, but you know what you're doing. Right. And I was very happy about that. They didn't give me my first break,Michael Jamin:But they, but they weren't, they were just staff writers at the time.Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah, yeah. Which is fine. You know, I thought the first thing I needed to do was build a community. So I took a UCLA extension class at night and on the last day of the class, everyone was filing out. Someone turned around and said, you know, the deadline for the Disney Writer's Fellowship is tomorrow. You have to have your work postmarked by then. Okay. And I ran home and got my stuff in the mail the next morning. And, um, I sort of like that intro that I just talked about my life, I sort of put some of that in the essay that you write for what's your unique background. And, um, and then sent in a, uh, a Murphy Brown, maybe. Mm-hmm. , I'mMichael Jamin:Not sure you had a bunch of specsDawn DeKeyser:Probably. No, I had, because I'm very methodical, I would spend six months writing each of them. Okay. And that's night and day work shopping, doing writers groups, doing punch up mm-hmm. , um, until I felt like every page that your eyeballs land on made sense and was good and had a joke and you knew where the characters were going.Michael Jamin:Before we skip ahead, you said something I thought was really smart, you said you wanted to build your community. Right. Because a lot of people don't even think about that.Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah.Michael Jamin:So you knew you wanted by, you knew you wanted help or you wanted, like what, what were you looking for?Dawn DeKeyser:Well, I knew that I didn't know anyone here. Tom was off on his own, uh, fabulous life. I knew a girl from Dallas from years before, but, um, there was, there was no one that I could send my stuff to and I did cold calling to the agents and that didn't work. Doesn't do anything. Yeah. And so in the UCLA classes, I would usually, if you've got a group of 20 people, there's two that get it, let's say 10%, they'reMichael Jamin:Get what get you or what do you mean get it?Dawn DeKeyser:I mean, they get what the, they are really there to learn and to be in that field. Mm-hmm. some others, you know, just they, it's a fun class to take. Right. But you can tell the two or three people that are very, um, interested in moving their career forward. Right. So I ingratiated myself and said, Let's form a writer's group. And that was okay. You know, that was fine until you start meeting people through them, they bring in their set of information that you don't have access to mm-hmm. and then it just starts growing.Michael Jamin:Right? Yeah. You gotta be there. And you, you were there now, how were you making a living? You still working in advertising now?Dawn DeKeyser:So I was still in, I wasn't in doing advertising. I was temping and I had this job at, uh, Disney on the lot where I was answering phones for the head of marketing mm-hmm. . And I thought, I'm advertising and marketing. And because, um, at, on the second day, he came out of his office and he said, Who are you and why are you so bad at answering phones? Like you're dropping calls and you're, you're sending in the wrong people. And I was like, Yeah, cuz um, this is really what I do. I actually love the One Sheet movie posters that you guys are writing, so I'd like to write headlines for that. And I had secretly gone into the files to see what their freelancers were invoicing them.Michael Jamin:Interesting.Dawn DeKeyser:And he said, Yeah, I don't think you're right for that. So I brought in my portfolio the next day and he said, I think you're right for this. So I started picking up freelance for movie posters,Michael Jamin:But that was not, See some people think that that's how you break in, but I wouldn't think that that's how to break in. That's just how to make a book. Right.Dawn DeKeyser:What do you mean? Like,Michael Jamin:Well, like that wouldn't, working in that advertising side for Disney wouldn't get you, you know, you're on the Disney lot, but it wouldn't get you as a sick, you know, get you work as a sit home writer.Dawn DeKeyser:That's right. So that predated getting into, so I got in the Disney Writer's Fellowship, Right. Um, that was over the course of like a two, two month process of interviewing and meeting with their executives. And I went into that meeting thinking, this is what I moved out here for. And they said, So what is your plan if, if this doesn't work out? And I said, This is going to work out. I really can't imagine y y'all finding someone better or more dedicated to doing great work. I really wanna do this. I wanna work with my heroes. I wanna work with people that will make me a better writer.Michael Jamin:And who were your heroes then?Dawn DeKeyser:Well, weirdly enough, um, I had top a top five. One was Diane English, one was Chris Lloyd, the, the writer. HowMichael Jamin:Did you know Chris Lloyd? But yeah, I was so surprised you from, how would you know, how did you know Chris? Like how was he? He, Diane English? Yeah,Dawn DeKeyser:Diane English. Um, Chris was,Michael Jamin:Was he running, He wasn't running Fraser then?Dawn DeKeyser:He was like higher up on Fraser.Michael Jamin:Wow. Okay. Yeah. I'm surprised you even thought of him. But I mean Yeah, he's great. He's a he is a great writer forDawn DeKeyser:Sure. Yeah, he is. And I can't remember the other three, but within the first two years of breaking in, I worked with all five of them.Michael Jamin:Wow. Wow. Now, what was the fellowship like? Cuz we did the Warner Brothers Writer's Workshop.Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah.Michael Jamin:I'd rather you talk about it. What was the Disney one like? What was your experience there?Dawn DeKeyser:It was so great. They picked five people. I think they had in that year, um, 3000 applicants. They picked five of us and Wow. That's it. Pardon?Michael Jamin:That's it. That's, I can't, I I didn't, I didn't know it was that small.Dawn DeKeyser:Well, it's, I think it's bigger these days. I think they take on 10 or 20, which is good. And they have a, they had another five fellows that did only film. And our five, you know, I'm still in contact with today. We would meet, um, twice a week at each other's houses. And then usually once a week or every two weeks we'd go to Disney and we would pitch where we are with our specs script. So it was a small, like a small stipend that paid the rent. OhMichael Jamin:Wow. And those five, all five went on to work?Dawn DeKeyser:Um, not consistently. Not really. Okay. But that again, was just, I think it has everything to do with focus. Mm-hmm. . Um, and I'll talk about that a little more of like, if you, if you are not, if you don't pick a lane, I am a sitcom half hour multi-camera mm-hmm. writer. That's what I wanna do.Michael Jamin:That Right. I, I so intriguing. Cause I say that I've made a number of posts about this that Yeah, put yourself in a box. People like, but I don't wanna be in a box, Put yourself in a box and you worry about getting outta the box later. But right now you need to sell yourself as who this is what you are. Why do I do? That's right.Dawn DeKeyser:That's right. And, and so many new writers are still struggling with that. And I said, People cannot help you if they don't know where to put you. Yeah. And so if you say, Oh, I write drama and comedy and romance, it's like, that's great for you, but I only know comedy writers. Right. So I don't think I'm gonna even help you because I don't know if you're really connected with that or with drama orMichael Jamin:How serious you are about it. Yeah, exactly. Market yourself. Make it easy for people. Yeah. You know? Yeah. What, See, it's, so sometimes I, sometimes I wonder, am I just bullshitting? Am I making this up? You know, am I the only one who feels this way? No, I don't, I don't think, I think I'm saying stuff everyone else thinks, you know, agrees withDawn DeKeyser:You are not alone. And you're getting such great information out there to so many people. It's really spectacular.Michael Jamin:You're very kind.Dawn DeKeyser:You're fan Michael Jam. ButMichael Jamin:That's me. So then, okay, so then okay, then what you have. All right.Dawn DeKeyser:So then I was in the fellowship and they put, they don't promise, but they say, we may place you on one of our Disney shows. And that's where I went onto All American Girl. Mm-hmm. . AndMichael Jamin:It, Were they paying you? Cuz I'm Warner of Brothers. If they staffed you in one of their shows, you get, at least back then you would get, you work for like a third of scale. A third. But was that the case on Disney?Dawn DeKeyser:We didn't get paid, but we got paid for the scripts that we wrote because they were already paying. Like, more brothers doesn't pay youMichael Jamin:To pay. Right. No one of those you pay to get in.Dawn DeKeyser:Oh yeah.Michael Jamin:We paid. Yeah. We, we paid like, I think it was like $400 each or something. But I think it's way more than now. I think it's a lot more now.Dawn DeKeyser:Hmm. No, they, they would place you as free labor on their shows. And it was my first experience in the writer's room. It was hard. I had trouble being heard. And I did end up, we had an order for 13 episodes. I ended up writing three of them.Michael Jamin:What was your three? That's that's a lot actually for a staff writer. I wonder why weren't you, you must have been scared.Dawn DeKeyser:They liked my writing. They liked, like, I spent again, it was like, I really sweated it. This is another thing that I, that I stress to writers is sweated, you can't make a lot of money if you're not putting that amount into your writing and your own career. SoMichael Jamin:Yeah. So 13, that's a lot. And but what was it like? I mean, were you okay? I always think that when we first kinda just shoot me, I was like, I'm in over my head. I am in over my head. Yeah. How did you felt? The same wayDawn DeKeyser:I am in over my head. Um, I, yeah, I, it was terrifying. And I realized that I wasn't a match for people who had been in writing rooms that were louder funnier, more obnoxious, mostly just louder. Mm-hmm. . So I sat next to this one writer and I, I'd whisper things to him to see if he could pitch them for me.Michael Jamin:And did he? Yeah. And, and they went over and then did he give you, did you say as dope? OhDawn DeKeyser:Yeah. Yeah. He would gimme credit. But you know, I said I don't even wanna push that. I just wanna see.Michael Jamin:Right. IfDawn DeKeyser:You're on the right game. Well, I wanna be part of this game, but I don't know how to play.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. Exactly. Right. And it takes several, How long did it take you before you felt like you knew how to play? How many years?Dawn DeKeyser:Um, well that's the interesting thing because my next job was on news radio. Right. And I, I have all, I had felt like an all American girl that I was getting my, you know, sort of getting my feet under me. But that was, they were kicked out from under me on this, on the next actual staff job that I have. Right. That I had. And it took me, um, quite a long time to feel okay in the room. And it really wasn't until many years later when I was in the ugly Betty Writers' room because the, you had drama writers there who were so great about staying on focus with the story and not performing and the performance of the comedy when you do a comedy pitch. I was scared ofMichael Jamin:Oh, interesting. So cuz they don't have, obviously when you're doing the drama you don't have to be funny. So they're basically just talking about the story points. Cause I haven't really worked on it and they're not, Yeah. They're not hoping the joke will land cuz there is no joke.Dawn DeKeyser:It was so weird to, um, go out on, on an act with no joke. It was like, what? Wait, we can just cliff hanger like that. .Michael Jamin:Do you feel like these drama rooms are more civilized because of that?Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah, definitely. They were also, they were just more writerly and, um, more mature. And I, you know, I say that sitcom riding was a full contact sport. Mm-hmm. . And I didn't realize that when I started I wanted to be around really funny people. And it was so much work for me. There was the whole other aspect of being a female writer and oftentimes the only woman in the room.Michael Jamin:Why? Talk about that experience a little. What's that like?Dawn DeKeyser:Well, it sucked .Michael Jamin:It, it sucked. It sucked.Dawn DeKeyser:It wasMichael Jamin:Sucked. But not all the time. Just sometimes or all the time?Dawn DeKeyser:Every timeMichael Jamin:On every show. Every show.Dawn DeKeyser:No. If there were other women in the writer's room, it was a little less terrible,Michael Jamin:But still terrible.Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . It wasn't until I got into dramas and then dramas that I just felt like, okay, I can, I can do my work. I could be funny. I'm much funnier on the page and I would just think, Oh God, I gotta get out of the writer's room so I can be funny. Right. So that was not the best strategy.Michael Jamin:Right.Dawn DeKeyser:Um, and I was the only woman on news radio that year. Andy and Eileen were there and they left after a few episodes.Michael Jamin:Right. But Right. But you overlap with him. Right. Cause that's how I, that's how I met you through Eileen I think.Dawn DeKeyser:Oh, probably. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.Michael Jamin:And you know, they were both very, I remember I'd just shoot me, both of them. They'd pitch a line, like a story, uh, idea and then, you know, people Oh, that's good. And like, how do you know it's good? How do they, like how are they doing this? Like how do you know? You know, Anyway, but I thinkDawn DeKeyser:That's, I don't know. Would you say that it helps to have a partner? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:For sure. It helped a lot. I mean I, you know, the two of us were clinging to each other for, you know, for dear life. . Um, I think definitely it's that way more intimidating to do it all to it on yourself. But how do you, what do you like, what do you experience even now or like lately when you have a staff writer who feels the same way that you felt like what, you knowDawn DeKeyser:Yeah.Michael Jamin:What goes on there?Dawn DeKeyser:Well, um, working on pilots, there was one young girl who came in and just to sort of observe mm-hmm. and I just took to her because she was so, um, she had a script in a big binder with all of it color coded with all of her nose. I was like, Oh my God, you're after my heart. Um, becauseMichael Jamin:She's so prepared. People, young writers come in prepared sometimes. I'm alwaysDawn DeKeyser:Yeah, they do. And I just said, You are after my heart. I will help you in any way that I can. And she was working for, for quite some time. I think she lives on the East coast now. Right. It's that, um, it's that showing up prepared and really earnest. Like, I love that. I kind of love when people try a little too hard and sometimes it can be cringy. I'm like, Yes, I get it. That's me.Michael Jamin:But do you have you also, cause I've experienced young writers who kind of don't under, they don't know what they don't know as well, you know, as well and they kind ofDawn DeKeyser:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Argue or overstep and, you know, have you experienced that?Dawn DeKeyser:Oh yeah. And the, one of the first things I say is, do not litigate. Do just, just take it in. And it's also the, um, once you learn how to take notes on your script and realize that it's not personal, get out of your own fucking way. Get outta your way. Because after like being in writer's groups, we had rules about how we gave notes to each other. And the person getting the notes has to shut up. You cannot explain why you put something in a script. It's like, I don't care why you put it in there. Here's me as a reader is not getting this part of it. Right. And there's been plenty of times I'd be giving people notes and just like in classes or writer's room. Um, Yeah. Classes a writer resume. And I could tell that they didn't want the note.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Oh well no one wants a note. . Yeah. I mean,Dawn DeKeyser:I mean just like basic stuff, especially in writers' groups where if, if they are arguing their stance and their reason for why they wrote something, it's like, Oh, I get it. Okay. You're good. You're good to go. All all's good.Michael Jamin:Right. Right. And so this, see, it's so funny how we have the same, like we've never worked in the same show. We've had so many the same exact experiences.Dawn DeKeyser:Yes. Although I would, I would, Oh you said venture to mention that. Um, you know, and some writers' rooms, it's like, I was not safe. I was commented, my body was commented on when I would walk into a room and when I would leave a room and I was told to suck it up by my agents because it was a really good show. OrMichael Jamin:Do you think they were trying to be funny or were they're being sexual harassing? Like, you know, what were they trying, what was the Oh,Dawn DeKeyser:Sometimes it was just trying to be funny. But, um, it was funny at my expense I say I was humiliated for sport on a particular show. Right. And they were cruel. And they were also like, my agents came in after one of our show tapings and they looked around the office and went, Oh, I see what you're talking about. It smells like rancid cheese in here. The guys were walking around in boxer shorts. They had brought futons to their offices cuz they were just staying there.Michael Jamin:So like, cuz the hours is terrible. Yeah,Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah. And they also had jars of their pee in the offices because I thought that was hilarious.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Dawn DeKeyser:So that's, that's not just being like, IMichael Jamin:Dunno. And it's interesting that you, you were able to speak up about this because this was before people were really speaking up about this. You know what I'mDawn DeKeyser:Saying? I didn't, I didn't, I mean, I didn't until more recently. That's a really,Michael Jamin:To your agent at least you did. You know?Dawn DeKeyser:Well, I just said it's so hard. I mean it's so Yeah. And that my agents were womenMichael Jamin:And they still, And you're, they still,Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah.Michael Jamin:I can't, I want, What do you think if that were today though? I can't imagineDawn DeKeyser:It wouldn't happen today.Michael Jamin:Yeah. You'd be taking a lot more seriously, you know. Yeah,Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah. It, it, it, yeah. It wouldn't happen today. Um, that, that show ended up not hiring a woman writer for the rest of its run for like three or four more seasons.Michael Jamin:And, but from what I understand, well maybe, maybe I shouldn't say which show it was. Do we say which show it was? I know some,Dawn DeKeyser:It may have earlier, butMichael Jamin:I know some of the, like some of these shows that you were on the hours were absolutely terrible. Terrible. Like, what were those, what was that like?Dawn DeKeyser:That was like being held hostage by a crazy person. Right. And that sometimes the showrunner would be on medication and they would not be able to focus and they would just kind of keep us there. A lot of times you'd hear about showrunners who just didn't wanna go home to their wife and kids, which is terrible,Michael Jamin:Terrible, terrible. Right. Wow.Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah. Wow. So that was, that was hard. I mean, driving home at four in the morning and then getting up at around 10, um, and then getting back to the office by 10 30 or 11,Michael Jamin:Was there a lot of sitting around and waiting? Or was it all work?Dawn DeKeyser:No, it was a lot of sitting around and waiting and storytelling galing each other. Mm-hmm. , you know. Geez. But, but things are not, they don't work that way anymore. Which is,Michael Jamin:Yeah. I don't think so. You gotta, yeah. When you get, that's a bad situation. Uh, sometimes like we, you know, we did a couple bad hours like on just shoot me, but it was never, cuz we were dicking around, it was because like a story blew, blew up and we had to work till four in the morning. That was a couple of those. But it wasn't, cuz it wasn't ill behavior. It was just, that's just the, you know, sometimes that happens.Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah, for sure. And you know, people like Steve Levitan and some of the other guys you've worked with, they are not there to make a point or single someone out just for fun. Yeah. And you guys, you and Sea were as showrunners, you would never do that. You would never write that.Michael Jamin:No. Our goal was always to go home early. That was, how could we go home early today, , what could we do to get the work done, Have a, have a good hour. Um, but what about developing when you, you know, come up with your own ideas? What's that? How does that work?Dawn DeKeyser:That was, um, that was usually, uh, someone that I'd be in the writer's room with. They would come to me and say, I've got an idea. Do you like this? Or we would pair up just for the pitch.Michael Jamin:So most of your develop, Okay. So people ask me about that. Can you, can you work independently or can you work with team up with people? Cuz we, we, you know, that's what you did mostly.Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah. And when I was, um, like I'd say mid-level writer mm-hmm. , it would behoove me to go in with a showrunner or a co p Right. And, um, just so that I could to have those meetings and kind of get the lay of the land until later when I would writeMichael Jamin:Around.Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah.Michael Jamin:But in the beginning, were you, were you kind of working under them or were you literally together.Dawn DeKeyser:Together. Okay. Together.Michael Jamin:And, and then now, okay, now when you come up with an idea, how does that work alone? I mean,Dawn DeKeyser:Oh, it was, it was great. So we're, we've been talking mostly about the nineties and then after a few of the shows, like I, I went to work through the rest of the nineties, but I did definitely get the comedy knocked out of me. Um, I went on to do a series of shows and over that time there were less and less options because we had the game shows coming in and reality tv. And by 2000 I went to rehab and it was very helpful. I mean, you know, I got this shit kicked out of me and I was no match. I was not cravenly ambitious. I was just always grateful to be there, which doesn't give you any control. And with, with my, it was a short stint and I was able to piece things together. I also took jobs for shorter amounts of time. Like if they had a full year season, I'd say I'll work the first 13.Michael Jamin:What if they pick, what if they wanted you for the back nine or whatever.Dawn DeKeyser:Then I said, I'm not available. And I'd move to New York and just kind of in between each show I had to do a lot of repair. I just had to sleep.Michael Jamin:Interesting. I I, I didn't even know that was an option. Like that's kind of, I that's kind of unusual to kind of good for you. Like, you're calling the shots, you're saying this is what I'm willing to do. I don't know anybody who does that, who can do that, I guess.Dawn DeKeyser:Well I wasn't, um, I couldn't, I mean financially it was not the thing to do, but mentally I knew that I had to not put myself in harm's way. Right. And, um, I always, it also had advertising to go back to occasionally. Right. So, um, you know, by, I would say, so I continued to work. I'd pick up an episode here, um, less staff drops available, but I just kind of eked out a living. It wasn't the trajectory that I'd started on. Right. And I was okay with that.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist.Michael Jamin:Basically this is the, the interesting part, which I don't really talk about a lot on anything is the economics of really being a writer. Because I don't know, we don't just talk about it, but cuz we were saying, you know, you kind of, you kind of, you were calling the shots. You're saying, this is what I'm willing to do. I don't want, I'll work this much, I don't wanna work that much because it's not , it's not good for me, my mental health. And I get that. Um, but so then to kind of to, you know, had to make, to make ends meet, you also have this other project that you've been working on and I wanna talk about that.Dawn DeKeyser:Yes. So I think we, uh, we were talking about 2000 rehab, excellent. Mm-hmm. very helpful. And so it was on the heels of that that I was starting to piece together what I wanted my life to look like, which was not working 18 hours a day with difficult people. Yeah. So I would, I would take my jobs for shorter amounts of time. Like if a, if a show had an order for 22, I said I'll work on the first 13. Right. And then I would generally go to Texas or New York and then just repair in between shows. And it, financially it was not a strong way to do it. But, um, I wanted to circle back a little bit on the, the rehab stuff. Um, you had asked at one point about did I, was I an AA and I wanna say that that never worked for me.Dawn DeKeyser:And there was this book a few years back called Quit Like A Woman. And it's about, it was by H Whitaker and it's about smart recovery. And one of the things that just made so much sense to me was that AA is a AAL system. And one of the first things that they ask you to do is give, give away your power. And the thing is, we women are rendered powerless in so many situations already. Why the fuck would I wanna go into a meeting and, and not have any agency over myself and my decisions? So that's a part of smart recovery and I love it. I think it's reallyMichael Jamin:Do do you meet as as often as, as somebody you know, in, in the group or, you know?Dawn DeKeyser:No, and the thing about it is, um, I'm sort of a social drinker. I don't have an issue with that anymore. And it's really about like, if you have a drink, you don't start at day one. You just, you figure out if you wanna manage your use of anything or, um, if you don't want to . Right. And, and it's just, um, it's just less, um, punishing Right. Say so. Um, and I know that, you know, we're writers, we're tender souls and we feel a lot. And I just wanted to get sort of, get that out there. That's something that's really helped and resonated withMichael Jamin:Viola Davis said something like that, you know, obviously not a writer but an actor, but she said, I guess I can't remember what it was about, but she's basically saying someone criticized her for having thin skin. And she goes, I'm supposed to have thin skin. That's, I'm an artist. Like I, you know, I'm not supposed to have thick skin . I'm supposed to feel things and express things. YouDawn DeKeyser:Know? That's right. That's right. I mean, that's what we do. We do. And um, we feel things and then we express them and we write them and we get it out there and people get it. They understand that. Um, you can't be general in really good writing. You gotta be specific.Michael Jamin:Right, Exactly. Specific. Yes. Yeah. Well tell but tell me about your summit.Dawn DeKeyser:Okay, so sumMichael Jamin:It up.Dawn DeKeyser:Sum it up. Um, one, sum it up. One of the things we don't talk about as writers is all that dead air, that space between gigs or the fact that the seasons are shorter now, and there's the writing staffs are smaller and the industry expands and contracts and the summit called writers making money. Lose the ego, tap into your talent and bring cash in during these weird ass apocalyptic times. I'm said that earlier. And, um, it's really about what are you doing for passive income investing? How are you keeping the lights on mm-hmm. and these, So I talk to money experts and mindset coaches and, um, we talk about things like cash machines, which is how do you bring in a little bit just in passive income? It's not hard. Um, if you have lazy assets, like my IRA's been sitting there doing nothing for a long time. And, um, we talked about what types of entities as a creative person you need to set up and forget it'll run on its own without you. But just getting all of that in place. And so, uh, in 2020 my life imploded mm-hmm. . And after that, and I'll just say a little bit like in 2020 my house flooded and I lost about 50 years worth of furniture, clothing, art, stuff like that. And then my husband, um, emailed me d divorce papers.Michael Jamin:Right. And then it gets worse,Dawn DeKeyser:And then it gets worse. And then covid hit. And then while the house was being torn apart with asbestos, tenting, my daughter and I moved into one corner of the house during, while she was in virtual school, I lost my dream job. I lost the house. And then we just decided to go and spend time in Woodstock, New York with friends, which was good. And then we came back in November and about that Thanksgiving, my husband passed away. Right. So that was very hard. And, um, I spent after, you know, we went through the grieving process and then after we , just after we got that done, after we were cured of that , I started into just figuring out again, what do I want my life to look like in my career? And I still wanna write. And so I started taking business classes, business coaching, leadership training, um, and talking to money experts and just like, what, how am I setting myself up for generational wealth? Which is something that I didn't look ahead, I didn't look to, excuse me. And then my daughter got into college, which was amazing, and she's in New York now. She's at the number one design school in the country, Parsons. And we said yes. And then I looked at the, how much it was gonna cost and out. Oh. And also in 2020, all my money kind of evaporated, unbeknownst to me. So I was really starting from scratch with no home address. Right. And, um,Michael Jamin:What do you mean your money evaporated? What hap what do you mean?Dawn DeKeyser:Well, um, my husband was, um, he was not, well, he was very troubled and very ill. And that kind of went with him. SoMichael Jamin:He, Okay. So he learned,Dawn DeKeyser:He found out that we were a few hundred thousand in debt. So again, all that doesn't matter, it's just money. So we find out that Ava's college is 80,000 Right. Thinking, you know what, we're gonna do this. We'll just figure out a way. So for the last 18 months, I have been figuring out ways to set our lives up and start bringing in money in a different way outside of tv, outside of just writing as a creative person. And it's working and I wanna, and I just want people to know that there's, IMichael Jamin:Share that that's important cuz you know, creative people, like, we don't go into this profession, at least I don't think, you know, we don't go into the special to become middle managers. We don't go to become to know about money because like, you know, I think that's part of, also, I'm not excusing any of the bad behavior in TV shows, but no one becomes a writer because they wanna manage people. They go because they just wanna goof off and be creative and do whatever and that. But the problem is that can, that can affect people, other people working underneath you, you know?Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah, for sure. You know that as a showrunner. Yeah. And you work up through the ranks because of your writing talent and then you're suddenly in an administrative position, Right. As a showrunner, right? Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah. It's like, I don't, I didn't want, I don't wanna be the boss, I just wanna be a writer. But, but this is how it is now. Now you have to manage people. So anyway, so, but, but so that's why I think what you're talking about in your summit is important. So Yeah. Tell us more about it. Yeah.Dawn DeKeyser:So I think it's really important because we are, this is gonna talk about, um, using your left brain in a right brain industry mm-hmm. . And it's not that hard. It's not that scary. I talked to this one woman who's known for her millionaire maker series, and I started working with her this summers. Like, what am I, I'm doing everything wrong. I know that, and I've made money and I've spent it, and I would kind of like to not do that anymore. And her team is, you know, they're talking about how to get me set up and any of their other clients and it's been just a complete game changer. Right. Like, it just, um, and she's very intense and very complex in all of the knowledge that she has. She's not a Susie Orman or Dave Ramsey where they talk about saving mm-hmm. and don't have that latte in the morning.Dawn DeKeyser:And she says, Oh, you know, fuck all that live. You're like, make money and do the right thing with it because we just aren't ever aware of what to do. Like lazy assets. My IRA sitting there, and now I'm going to instead take some of that out and put it into a, an investing group that will, will put money into apartment buildings and real estate. And y'all who have houses out here are, you know, that is great, but it's not a financial strategy. Mm-hmm. . And anyway, so I was excited about learning all of this, especially on the heels of having to reconfigure my whole life. And I just wanna get it out there.Michael Jamin:Yeah. You had, you did a giant reset. A giant reset. Yeah. Very overwhelming. I I'm getting nervous just thinking about what you did .Dawn DeKeyser:It was, um, it was weird. It was, yeah. It was really hard. And, um, yeah, I am grateful. Like I'm grateful for my life. There's one of two ways you can go when tragedy happens. And that is, you can stay in it and think of the all the other bad things that are right around the corner mm-hmm. or, um, you can pick yourself up and get going in a completely different way. That's the, that was the, the real impetus for me is like, I wanna do things differently and Oh, and there was something you said about h hustling. Yes. Yes. Um, so I'm, I'm now putting questions out there and answering them and not even giving you any air time . Like, we all hustle, we all get that, get the work done. One thing that I wanted to do in this new reset was to not hustle as much what I do. I'm working a lot, but at home on my own schedule. And if it feels like it's getting stressful or sense of urgency, I take a nap. Right. I just slow down and I wanna do it in a more peaceful way.Michael Jamin:Right. That's so interesting. And so people can learn more about your, the summit@dawntokaiser.comDawn DeKeyser:Slash writers making moneyMichael Jamin:Back slash writers making money. And so then when is the next one?Dawn DeKeyser:It's going to be October 17th through the 19th. So for three days we have, Oh, sorry. For three days we have nine speakers. Right. And each day we'll talk like one, I talk to an actress who is now writing this really fabulous, um, children's book series. She loves that. She's like, I still act, but here's something that fills my heart. Right. Um, talking to Laura Lang Meyer, who's intense, she's still intense. Um, and she is all, she's, she talks about money in a way of let's get everything. Let's not have your bookkeeper talk to your cpa, talk to your business manager. She's like, We just do everything and, and all in one place, which is what I,Michael Jamin:And we should mention, this is all free for people who want to join the summit. Right. It'sDawn DeKeyser:All free. It's free, free, free. So you just sign up, give me your email and your name, and you'll get access to all of that.Michael Jamin:Right. Right. Yeah. And then, but then you and you also have a consulting business, a script consultingDawn DeKeyser:Business. I do. So all that's gonna launch to, I am all about putting everything off to the last minute. So that launches next week, and that'll be on my dawn de kaiser.com website. I'll do, I'll be doing script consulting, um, coaching for creatives and the writer's room. We're going be, we'll meet once a once a weekMichael Jamin:About,Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah. We'll do guest speakers and q and a and then writing sprints.Michael Jamin:Once a writing sprintDawn DeKeyser:That is kind of a Pomodoro style I put on a timer and heads, pencils up, heads down.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. And then you give a little short assignment. PeopleDawn DeKeyser:Not even, you know, I'll say, set your intention at the very beginning of what you wanna accomplish in the next 25 minute sprint. Okay. And, um, and we just do check in. It helps to get online or, you know, to check in with other people. Your Facebook group is really going strong and people are finding each other there. Mm-hmm. . And that's been really helpful for them.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. You got a lot going on.Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah. Um,Michael Jamin:Now I wanna talk about when you're, when you're on a a show, like what's, what's your experience like working with new young writers and and what do you see? Dos and don'ts?Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah. I see the ones that really, that just grab my heart are the ones who try really hard. Mm-hmm. , they are like, to a cringy point, like I love that. I was working on a pilot and this one young writer came in, she was gi given a shot and she had her script in a big binder, three reading binder with all of her color coordinated post-it notes. Mm-hmm. that. And, and I just thought, she's after my own heart. Like I, that's She was prepared. She was prepared. That's right.Michael Jamin:Because sometimes new young writers, they'll look at the boss and because the boss very often isn't really prepared because, you know, they got a million things going on. Or even some of the upper level writers are kind of play it loose. But, uh, and so some of 'em think, well, if the boss has got his feet up on the, or her feet up on the desk, so could so can I, I'll just do what the boss is doing. . But you're not the boss. YouDawn DeKeyser:Know, you have not earned the right to put your feet up on the table yet.Michael Jamin:Right. So you, But when you see people come in prepared, uh, you know, I like that. I like, sometimes they'll, like, they'll say, I have a pitch. I'm like, Oh good. I, they'll say like, I have five ideas. Well let's hear 'em. I don't have any ideas.Dawn DeKeyser:That's right. . That's right. Yeah. It's just, it's just sort of, um, you know, not taking it personally mm-hmm. . And uh, I see a lot of writers who litigate their script. Mm-hmm. ,Michael Jamin:They overstep. Right.Dawn DeKeyser:They do. And they just argue for the, they don't need to argue. Mm-hmm. , they, their work is on the page. It either is working or it's not. And you are in a room with professionals who will tell you mm-hmm. and you don't need to explain to them what you put in the script and why, because they don't care. It's not working. Right. Right. So yeah. It is that losing the ego part of it.Michael Jamin:Yeah. It's, it's hard for people to, it's hard for young writers to accept that. Um, and they don't see it yet. And then as you get older, and then sometimes I feel like, ah, I, I'm like, crouchy the old guy. Um, but I, I don't, I don't think so. I think like you just, you have the experience. It's like, I don't wanna argue with you. I, you know, I know from experience that this is how, this is how it's gotta go. This is what this is. What you presented is not gonna work. I just know. I just know that, youDawn DeKeyser:Know. Yeah. You've, you've done your time.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Um, and do you feel, But how do you, and I think I I I, we talked about this a little bit. How, how do you think people are breaking in today?Dawn DeKeyser:Oh, that's right. I said I do not know. I have no idea. Yeah. I have no idea. Um, what you and Rob Cohen talked about was just coming in from all different angles. Like mine was a winding road getting here. And um, some of it worked, some of it didn't. But, um, that, yeah. It's like no one is going to give you a career. They will give you a shot. Right. And that's why your work has to be outstanding. And I say, not good, not great. Outstanding. And you'll get work. You know, I, I just, um, and there are so many,Michael Jamin:Cause some people think, well, it's good enough or it's better than what the garbage that I see on tv. And they think, well, you know, Okay, okay. Maybe it is, but it's, you know, that's not good enoughDawn DeKeyser:That, But people have been saying that since I started in tv. It's like, Oh, it's better than what's on the air. No, it's not .Michael Jamin:No,Dawn DeKeyser:No. You, you are competing with a room of 12 professional writers who have each other to bounce it off of. And there's a reason that they write all of that. It may not end up great. That may be for all these reasons that you have no access to, which is network notes or, um,Michael Jamin:Acting notes. The actor you can get it from. Yeah. Um, there's a lot of reasons even, you know, I haven't really talked about this a lot, but even writing a bad television show is hard. Even writing bad TV is hard, You know,Dawn DeKeyser:, it's so hard. I worked on this one show that was a drama but just inadvertently a comedy. It was so terrible. And I think we got written up in the Hollywood Reporter for it just being so campy. We weren't going for campy, we were just trying , We're just, just trying to get the scripts to the actors.Michael Jamin:Right. How funny. Do and, and do you find, I think we, we've talked, I don't remember we mentioned this, but do you find working cuz you kind of transitioned to from comedy sitcom to DRM or, and even drama, like, um, and I think you were talking about even more chill. Like what? Cause I hadn't worked in drama, really. So what are the differences in the writing room, the writers' room forDawn DeKeyser:That? Yeah. It's a, it's a's a huge difference. So, um, 2017 Me Too movement mm-hmm. , um, that was a game changer for people like me who had been dragged around a few rough corners. And, um, it did change the, it changed the personality of a lot of writers' rooms. As, as you know, for me, um, comedy was always kind of a full contact sport. Mm-hmm. , you'd be in the room with comedians, performers, writers, and there would be jumping up and down and just, it was a lot of performance. And so Right.Michael Jamin:Because you gotta sell that joke.Dawn DeKeyser:You gotta sell it. Right. You gotta sell it. No one else is gonna sell it. Um, so I, my first job in drama was Ugly Betty, but they had, half of the staff was comedy writers, which hadn't been done a lot or before. Right. So what I noticed was that the drama writers were so writerly and they were so not worried about selling the act break and getting the big joke out on a beat or a scene. And it was, it was so great. It was so great to talk about the story and not about not worry about how you're gonna sell the joke for me. Right. I, I liked that part of it. And then I went on to be in other drama rooms that were just very respectful.Michael Jamin:And how did you make that transition? You had basic, cuz it's not like you could just jump from comedy writer to drama. You ba you're kind of starting overDawn DeKeyser:Kinda, you know, I didn't look at it that way. I will say that drama writers don't tend to become comedy writers.Michael Jamin:Right. Right. It's, it's a one, right? You, if you can write comedy, you could probably write drama, but not necessarily the other way around. Right.Dawn DeKeyser:Right. I mean, it's just a whole different muscle. Um, I don't know. I think I got this shit kicked out of me in comedy, so I thought, I wanna be . I'm now more serious.Michael Jamin:But now you started writing sample, you had to write samples. You gotta start as if you'd never done ob cause you'd never done it before. You had start writing drama samples.Dawn DeKeyser:That's right. And I found that the agents did not want to marketing me that way. You know, I've already established myself and, and they would then have to hand me over to a different set of agents.Michael Jamin:That's interesting. Right? Cause I talk about this. Well, so many people think that soon as I get an agent, how do I get an agent? They say this all the time. How do I get an agent as if that's gonna help at all? You know, that's not gonna change your life. Once you've, you know, once even when you become at your level, you know you're in charge,Dawn DeKeyser:Right? Yeah, absolutely. And I didn't get an agent until I was, I'd won some script writing contests. I was in the Disney Writer's Fellowship. I was writing all those scripts on one of their shows, and I still couldn't get an agent. StillMichael Jamin:Couldn't get an agent. Yeah.Dawn DeKeyser:And so I called, I contacted CAA and uta and they're like, Yeah, no, we're very interested. And no one would pull the trigger. So I called CAA back and said, Yeah, I'm going into UTA this afternoon. And that's when I got the offer. And then I called uta. I said, Yeah, I'm gonna go on, go ahead and go to CAA this afternoon.Michael Jamin:And Wow. So you were just bluffing? Yeah. Wow. Interesting. Yeah, we, for a while when we, um, God, where were we? I think we were at, uh, Endeavor. Mm-hmm. . And we weren't getting much. Um, we, I guess we weren't getting to kind of help the support we needed then as soon as, but as soon as we threatened to, to go to uta mm-hmm. , like everyone was called suddenly, suddenly they wanted to talk to us. .Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah. Yeah. That'll get them sitting up straight. Yeah.Michael Jamin: good for you. That's hard. That's, that's, uh, gutsy. But, okay. So then, um, but in terms of breaking stories, it, is it kind of the same on a, on a drama forDawn DeKeyser:Yeah. It's kind of the same. Instead of going out on a big blow, you go out on a big cliff hanger. Right. AndMichael Jamin:A pregnant moment.Dawn DeKeyser:What?Michael Jamin:That's, that's what I was told. It's called, It's, it's a pregnant, a pregnant moment. Like, OhDawn DeKeyser:Yes, that's right. Yes. What next? Yeah, and I, I just really liked it. I had this lovely experience working with Martha Williamson, who created Touch by an Angel. Mm-hmm. . And she's one of like the top Christian women in the country. And she was interviewed on 60 Minutes and she had quite a big career. And I had never been in a respectful writer's room before. And so I was like, Oh, we can't say fuck. And they, the two other guys, it was just like four of us. Mm-hmm. said, Oh, no, no, no. And so I thought, okay, no, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna give it a go , andMichael Jamin:I'm gonna hold my tongue when I don't have to say be crashed. Weird.Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah. I'm not gonna be disgusting. So, um, it was a really great experience. Right. That's interesting. And yeah. And the other, the dramas that I've done, and then, and then things sort of went, like I was able to write, um, episodes of Hallmark shows that's, I call that the women, the women writers ghetto. Um, cause we all, we all sort of end up there doing our cozy mysteries, which, um,Michael Jamin:It used to be, I guess children's shows, but I guess now you're saying for it's, it's home, It's, uh,Dawn DeKeyser:Hallmark has always been the family network. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Dawn DeKeyser:Family. Family.Michael Jamin:But when you develop, are you develop on your own? Are you, are you mostly doing comedy or drama?Dawn DeKeyser:Um, comedy, No, I would say both. And I'm not developing a lot. I have had this one idea that I love so much that I'm afraid to write it. I just, I just can't seem to do it.Michael Jamin:Why? Why?Dawn DeKeyser:Because I want it to be really good.Michael Jamin:Well, why don't you make, Write it as a book then?Dawn DeKeyser:No, it's a great series.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But if you sell it as a book, then, then you can turn it as a TV show. No.Dawn DeKeyser:Mm. Book writing. That's hard.Michael Jamin:Book writing. What would I know?Dawn DeKeyser:What writingMichael Jamin:? What do you mean book writing? ?Dawn DeKeyser:What is this book thing you talk about?Michael Jamin:Um, so interesting. But, okay, so I wanna make sure everyone knows more about, I guess I, when we talked about it, I wanna make sure before we sign off, but everyone knows more about how they can get in touch with you, how they can find you and learn more about your summit and your, your consulting services and all that.Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah. So that's all coming out next week and maybe by the time this runs, Yeah, probably it's, yeah, Hope. Um, Instagram @dawndekeyserwrites TikTok @dawndekeyserwrites website DawnDeKeyser.com. And I will tell you, you know, you use your name and all of your stuff. I would, I just was so uncomfortable doing that. I was calling it everything else, but what I am doing. So now it's just my name.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I know. I was, I was a little in the beginning. I was, uh, you know, it was uncomfortable cuz writers don't, we're not actors. We're behind the scene. It's, it's weird for us to, uh, promote ourselves this way. That's not what we do. We're not act, That's what the actors we write for somebody else put them in front. So that was a hurdle for me to, I had to get over, you know?Dawn DeKeyser:How did you get over it?Michael Jamin:Um, you know, I I I'm always reminded of the Oscar Wild. There's a wonderful qu I think he said, but I'm not sure cause I can find it again. But he said you'd worry, I think he said you'd worry less about what other people thought. Think about you if you realized how little they did. Which works on two levels, which means they already think you're garbage. So what are you worried about? Or they're just, they're just thinking about themselves. And so, yeah, I just, at some point I was like, I screw it. If people wanna judge me, let, let them, they're, they're gonna forget about me anyway. I'm not on anyone's, you know, why does no one's staying up late to think about me .Dawn DeKeyser:Right, right. That's good to know. I mean, that's, that is liberating.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I, I, I do actually, I've thought about it a lot and especially as a writer, cuz I started, you know, writing more like personal essays, more stuff about my life. And, um, and then I kind of realized that there's like a paradox about judge being about judgment and that, cause I, you know, I, I did this show and then I didn't want people to think like, my biggest fear would be to perform my work and have people think, Oh, this guy's not a good writer. You know? And to be a good writer, you have to expose yourself. Yeah. And that's the paradox. So if I don't want people to judge me, I have to put my, allow people to judge me. I have to make myself vulnerable so that they might judge me ironically. And if you do that, they ironically won't judge you. You know,Dawn DeKeyser:On your website you talk about vulnerable, being vulnerable. Yeah,Michael Jamin:Yeah,Dawn DeKeyser:Yeah. It's hard. It's hard because that's exactly right. You put your yourself out there, your heart and it can hurt.Michael Jamin:But to me, the bigger pain is having someone say, Oh, you can't write . So like, that would hurt harder . So I'd rather just ex be vulnerable. And that people Wow. Cuz people walk away, they go, Wow, how'd you do that? That was pretty brave. I'm like, whew. No, it would've been brave if I gone up there with my less than adequate work then, you kno

POP ART, WHERE I FIND THE POP CULTURE IN ART AND THE ART IN POP CULTURE, SAYS HAPPY ANNIVERSARY POP ART: Yes, it's the 75th episode of Pop Art, which means diamonds. DIAMONDS ARE A GIRLS' BEST FRIEND. “Cops! What the hell do they want? I haven't done anything... lately!” Traditionally, the gift for 75th anniversaries is diamonds. So my gift to you are two films about the search for precious jewels. Yes, it's time for Episode 75 of Pop Art, the podcast where we find the pop culture in art and the art in pop culture. On Pop Art, my guest chooses a movie from popular culture, and I'll select a film from the more art/classic/indie side of cinema with a connection to it. This time round, I am happy to welcome back as my guest, Donald McKinney, who has chosen as his selection the 1980s tongue in cheeky, postmodern Romancing the Stone, while I have chosen 1950's MGM epic King Solomon's Mines, both about a dangerous search for lost treasure. And in this episode, we answer such questions as: What is it about the hair? Why did Diane English only have one screenplay produced in her lifetime? What does the name Quatermain mean? What did the critics misunderstand about Romancing the Stone when it first came out? Where does Valley of the Dolls come in? What does the phrase “romancing the stone mean”? What beat out King Solomon's Mines for best picture? What's the in joke about American Express Travelers Checks? Meanwhile, check out The Real Short Box on most streaming platforms like Apple, as well as on Youtube at https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+real+short+box Donald's website Rumblespoon Productions as http://www.rumblespoon.com/wp/index/ The web series The Blue Beetle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6a-L7kUfdE Check out my blog at https://howardcasner.wordpress.com/ My books, More Rantings and Ravings of a Screenplay Reader, The Starving Artists and Other Stories and The Five Corporations and One True Religion can be found at https://www.amazon.com/s?k=howard+casner&ref=nb_sb_noss --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/howard-casner/support

This week Val and Rachel and Special (returning!) Guest Emily Wade discuss the pilot episode and second season premiere of Love & War, which is an American sitcom television series which aired on CBS from September 21, 1992 to February 1, 1995. Created by Diane English, the series originally starred Susan Dey as Wally Porter, a New York City restaurateur, and Jay Thomas as Jack Stein, a newspaper columnist with whom she had an on-again, off-again romance. After the first season, however, the show was retooled and Dey was fired by the producers of the show, saying that she and Thomas had "no chemistry" together. She was replaced by Annie Potts as Dana Palladino, who bought Porter's restaurant and also became a love interest for Jack. The first season also featured moments when Jack or Wally would break the fourth wall and address the camera directly, generally using it as an opportunity to discuss an emotional crisis. This technique was dropped in later seasons. Hot topics include: 1.) How CBS ruined Emily's childhood 2.) Why this show was so weird 3.) RIP Hunky Teddy Bear Jay Thomas 4.) Murphy Brown comparisons 5.) 3 redheads is too many for one show (Annie Potts has redhead energy) 6.) TV used to be theater, now it's the internet 7.) Emily's Korean sitcom obsession 8.) Accent Corner, What Ya Watching, and MAD Magazine 9.) Rachel and Val discuss Ted Lasso and Nomadland, but save Mare of Easttown talk for next week 10.) #vanlife    Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_%26_War_(TV_series)

The gals welcome Anita Floris, the host of “I’m Listening: A Fraiser Fan Podcast '' from More Banana, to end our podcast season with this Diane English written classic! Topics include: the great Jane Leeves, the sex appeal of the Dials, arrival party etiquette, as well as Anita’s first impressions of the series and how it still holds up for a younger audience! Join us for the pod’s season finale! Anita is Anitajewtina on Twitter & Instragam. Miss us already!? While you wait for our next season join our patron or donate one time only at www.murphybrownpod.com/donate or www.patreon.com/MurphyBrownpod for extended episodes and extra moments during our hiatus! 100% of proceeds go to fund the podcast for you! We found out about the Lampshade! https://www.google.com/amp/s/slate.com/news-and-politics/2009/03/when-did-drunk-people-start-putting-lampshades-on-their-heads.amp

The gals are excited to bring Part Two of what originally aired as a one-hour episode of Murphy Brown: ”Brown Like Me” - written by series creator Diane English. Topics include: the great Nat King Cole & the story behind his classic song “Star Dust,” Emmy confusion, and the importance of banter as foreplay.

The gals are excited to bring Part One of what originally aired as a one-hour episode of Murphy Brown: ”Brown Like Me” - written by series creator Diane English. Topics include: Murphy’s adult relationship with her parents, when and how one can look good in hats, late-in-life babies, and more! Join us for Part Two to discuss fighting as foreplay, the Great Nat King Cole, the origins behind the song “Stardust,” and more!

In our continuation of ”The Ladies of ‘Love & War’,” the pod welcomes Murphy Brown Season 1 guest star (I Would Have Danced All Night) and Diane English series regular: Suzie Plakson! We chat with Suzie about highlights from her sitcom career (Family Ties, Mad About You, How I Met Your Mother), her origins, and being directed by fellow actors. Plus: inspirations in the creative progress and the art of waiting. We recommend you listen to our interview with Joanna Gleason. ”The Return of King Lillian” - ww.kinglillian.com

The gals are lucky and beyond thrilled to have Tony Award winner Joanna Gleason on the pod for a discussion on art, television, musical theater and of course Diane English. Maybe you know Joanna from her season ten appearance on Murphy Brown (10.7: “Petty Women”) or her three seasons as a series regular on the Diane English series “Love and War” (streaming currently) or her infamous guest appearances on The West Wing, Friends, & as the mother in “Boogie Nights.” The pod talks to Joanna about her place in television history, from her own childhood as the daughter of a game show pioneer to working with Aaron Sorkin. Not to mention, award-winning work with Stephen Sondheim and James Lapine (“Into The Woods”), working with theater giants and her infamous production of “Nick & Nora." We believe you will learn and laugh with a great artist. Join us!

We are back after a few weeks of r&r with Tony winner Joanna Gleason. The brilliant actor and singer invited Anne and Damian to the Connecticut farm she shares with her Oscar nominated hubby, Chris Sarandon where we noshed on panzanella salad and on Joanna’s meaty oeuvre. You Might Know Her From Into The Woods, I Love My Wife, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, The Wedding Planner, Boogie Nights, Friends, Hannah and Her Sisters, Bette, Nick & Nora, The West Wing, and her cabaret show Out of the Eclipse. Joanna opens up about working with Stephen Sondheim and Arthur Laurents, loathing LA and finding her own path on the East Coast, and her foray into directing. Happy Pride, chicken tikkas! Follow us on social media @damianbellino || @rodemanne Discussed this week  SATC “Hot Child in the City” (Nick Gilder) is used on Season 3 ep 15, not the Fleet Week ep as Anne erroneously stated. WHOOPS!  NYC Dyke March  Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P Johnson getting monuments in NYC Julius’ Bar Cubbyhole Cara Delevingne & Ashley Benson carrying their sex bench  Nancy Meyers’ kitchens Chris Sarandon  Panzanella salad Joanna’s IMDB || IBDB Chip Zien & Joanna as the Baker & Baker’s Wife Filmed broadway production of Into the Woods  Joanna’s upcoming 54 below show Out of the Eclipse (July 2, 5, 6) Joanna w/ The Moontones I Love My Wife (Jim Naughton, Lenny Baker) Into the Woods (dir: Rob Marshall)  Joanna wins a Tony Love and War (1992-95) Diane English  Louie Anderson  Temporarily Yours (1997) w/ Debi  Mazar, Seth Green, Michael Patrick King Oh, Baby (1998-2000) w/ Cynthia Stevenson, Jessica Walter Bette (2000) w/ Lindsay Lohan, Kevin Dunn “Metabolically didn’t like California” The Normal Heart (The Public)  Dirty Rotten Scoundrels (Broadway) The Royal Family (Ahmanson) Nick and Nora the famous flop Arthur Laurents (librettist: West Side Story, Gypsy; screenwriter: Rope, The Way We Were, Turning Point) Boogie Nights (dir: Paul Thomas Anderson) Hannah and Her Sisters (1986)  & Crimes & Misdemeanors (1989) Last Vegas, Poms, Book Club, First Wives Club Joanna’s posse: Judith Light, Tina Fey, Jessica Walter, Candice Bergen, Stockard Channing, Bette Midler Ocean’s 8 Joanna’s father, Monty Hall hosted Let’s Make a Deal  Joanna in Password James Holzhauer on Jeopardy A Day in the Death of Joe Egg with Stockard Channing 

Jesi and Lauren close out the pod’s Season 11 Interviews with Part 2 of 2 with “Real Murphy Brown” herself, creator Diane English! Topics include: The writers and the Writers Room, the real answer about Corky and Miles, what you can do to help bring on Season 12! Plus, questions from YOU on Twitter! Don’t forget to watch the season 11 finale tonight 12.20 on CBS 930/830c www.MurphyBrownpod.com/donate

Jesi and Lauren close out the pod’s Season 11 Interviews with Part 1 of 2 with “Real Murphy Brown” herself, creator Diane English! Topics include: Diane and the Murphy Brown origin story, why Murphy isn’t streaming, writing, and tales from the revival and classic series. Also, for those following us from the beginning, we finally ask Diane about the famous “Chet” story that Norm Gunzenhauser told us about in our first interview for the pod! Join us Thursday for Part 2 of our interview with Diane and the Season 11 finale on CBS! www.MurphyBrownpod.com/donate

The gals welcome the dynamic wunderkind Miles Silverberg himself, Grant Shaud! Topics include: His origin story and early theatre life, auditioning Now vs the Late ‘80s, his Murphy Brown audition story, and the greatness of Diane English. Also, the trio does a little impromptu version of “Retcon Theatre” with Miles & Corky’s relationship. www.patreon.com/MurphyBrownPod Check out the free swag and special features! Check out Show Notes at www.MurphyBrownPod.com for extra info on what we discussed! Please also review/rate/subscribe to the podcast on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts Learn more about EST - aka Ensemble Studio Theater - https://www.ensemblestudiotheatre.org

Jesi and Lauren are here to give first thoughts and impressions of the first episode of the Murphy Brown revival aka the Season 11 opener “Fake News,” written by series creator Diane English! Plus, behind-the-scenes insights from the gals who attended the filming of the revival pilot! www.patreon.com/MurphyBrownPod - check out the free swag and special features! Check out Show Notes at www.MurphyBrownPod.com for extra info on what we discussed! Please also review/rate/subscribe to the podcast on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts.

  This year's batch of Fall TV Premieres snuck up on us a bit. Here we are, the last show in September, and just now getting to the new shows coming out. In fact, this week may have been the biggest week for new and returning show premieres of the season. If you missed something that looks great, the good news is that you can probably find it on Hulu or the Networks' streaming app. Esquire has a great list of every premiere date up to September 30.     Monday, Sept. 24   Magnum P.I. (CBS) Magnum P.I. is a modern take on the classic series starring Jay Hernandez as Thomas Magnum, a decorated former Navy SEAL who, upon returning home from Afghanistan, repurposes his military skills to become a private investigator in Hawaii.   Manifest (NBC) Once Upon a Time's Josh Dallas stars in this mystery thriller about passengers on a plane who arrive at their destination after a few-hour flight only to learn that five years have somehow gone by in the world. Presuming the passengers and crew dead, their loved ones have mourned them and already moved on. Thrown into this impossible situation, the people who had been aboard the flight will be forced to figure out how to pick up the pieces of their personal lives, as well as the greater purpose that is their destiny. Tuesday, Sept. 25   FBI (CBS) FBI,from Emmy Award winner Dick Wolf, is a fast-paced drama about the inner workings of the New York office of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. These first-class agents -- including Special Agent Maggie Bell (Missy Peregrym) and her partner, Special Agent Omar Adom 'OA' Zidan (Zeeko Zaki) -- bring all their talents, intellect and technical expertise to tenaciously investigate cases of tremendous magnitude, including terrorism, organized crime and counterintelligence.   New Amsterdam (NBC) Inspired by Bellevue, the oldest public hospital in America, this unique medical drama follows the brilliant and charming Dr. Max Goodwin (The Blacklist's Ryan Eggold), the institution's newest medical director who sets out to tear up the bureaucracy and provide exceptional care. Not taking 'no' for an answer, Dr. Goodwin must disrupt the status quo and prove he will stop at nothing to breathe new life into this understaffed, underfunded and underappreciated hospital -- the only one in the world capable of treating Ebola patients, prisoners from Rikers and the President of the United States under one roof -- and return it to the glory that put it on the map. Wednesday, Sept. 26   A Million Little Things (ABC) They say friendship isn't one big thing, it's a million little things -- and that's true for a group of friends from Boston who bonded under unexpected circumstances. Some have achieved success, others are struggling in their careers and relationships, but all of them feel stuck in life. After one of them dies unexpectedly, it's just the wake-up call the others need to finally start living. Along the way, they discover that friends may be the one thing to save them from themselves.   Single Parents (ABC) This ensemble comedy follows a group of single parents as they lean on each other to help raise their 7-year-old kids and maintain some kind of personal lives outside of parenthood. The series begins when the group meets Will (Taran Killam), a 30-something guy who's been so focused on raising his daughter that he's lost sight of who he is as a man. When the other single parents see just how far down the rabbit hole of PTA, parenting and princesses Will has gone, they band together to get him out in the dating world and make him realize that being a great parent doesn't mean sacrificing everything about your own identity. Thursday, Sept. 27   Murphy Brown (CBS) Candice Bergen and series creator Diane English reunite for the revival of the groundbreaking comedy about the eponymous broadcast news legend and her biting take on current events. Now in a world of 24-hour cable, social media, "fake news" and a vastly different political climate, Murphy returns to the airwaves with her original FYI team: lifestyle reporter Corky Sherwood (Faith Ford), investigative journalist Frank Fontana (Joe Regalbuto) and producer Miles Silverberg (Grant Shaud). Murphy's son, Avery, shares his mother's competitive spirit and quick wit, and has followed in her journalistic footsteps - perhaps too closely. Now back in the game, Murphy is determined to draw the line between good television and honest reporting, proving that the world needs Murphy Brown now more than ever. Friday, Sept. 28   The Cool Kids (Fox) From executive producer Charlie Day and starring David Alan Grier, Martin Mull, Leslie Jordan and Vicki Lawrence, The Cool Kids is a multi-camera comedy about a rag-tag group of friends living in a retirement community who are willing to break every rule in order to have fun -- because, at their age, what do they really have to lose? What unites them all is their shared belief that they're not done yet -- not by a long shot. These self-proclaimed "cool kids" are determined to make the third act of their lives the craziest one yet. Sunday, Sept. 30   God Friended Me (CBS) Brandon Micheal Hall stars in this humorous, uplifting drama as Miles Finer, an outspoken atheist whose life is turned upside down when he receives a friend request on social media from God and unwittingly becomes an agent of change in the lives and destinies of others around him. Monday, Oct. 1   Happy Together (CBS) Damon Wayans Jr. and Amber Stevens West star in this comedy about a thirtysomething happily married couple who begin to reconnect with their younger, cooler selves when Cooper (Felix Mallard), an exuberant young pop star drawn to their super ordinary suburban life, unexpectedly moves in with them.   The Neighborhood (CBS) The Neighborhood is a comedy about what happens when the friendliest guy in the Midwest moves his family (the Johnsons) to a neighborhood in Los Angeles where not everyone looks like him or appreciates his extreme neighborliness. Cedric the Entertainer stars as Calvin Butler, the Johnsons' opinionated next door neighbor, who is wary of the newcomers, certain that the Johnsons will disrupt the culture on the block. Wednesday, Oct. 10   All American (CW) Think The O.C. meets Friday Night Lights: A talented football player from South Los Angeles earns the chance to play football at Beverly Hills High, and his friends and family clash as the two worlds collide. The show is based on the real-life story of pro football player Spencer Paysinger. Taye Diggs stars as the Beverly Hills High coach. Sunday, Oct. 14   Charmed (CW) Charmed is getting a reboot from creators who previously wrote for Greek and Jane the Virgin. The pilot episodes, which aired at Comic Con, implied that the three witches earned their powers to fight the patriarchy at this moment because the “weakest man” had taken over the office of president.   The Alec Baldwin Show (ABC) Alec Baldwin has been hosting an interview podcast called Here's the Thing for years. His new talk show aims to adapt that model for television. The weekly show will feature lengthy sit-down interviews with celebrities. A pilot episode with Jerry Seinfeld and Kate McKinnon as guests aired last spring. Tuesday, Oct. 16   The Conners (ABC) The revival of Roseanne was cancelled earlier this year. But some of her family members are remaining on the air. ABC confirmed that a Roseanne spinoff starring Laurie Metcalfe as Jackie, John Goodman as Dan and Sara Gilbert as Darlene will air this fall. ABC executives have said the show will deal with a number of the same thematic issues, including financial struggles, but they have remained mum on how the show will explain the character of Roseanne's absence from the series.   The Kids Are Alright (ABC) Set in the 1970s, this ensemble comedy follows a traditional Irish-Catholic family, the Clearys, as they navigate big and small changes during one of America's most turbulent decades. In a working-class neighborhood outside Los Angeles, Mike (Michael Cudlitz) and Peggy (Mary McCormack) raise eight boisterous boys who live out their days with little supervision. The household is turned upside down when oldest son Lawrence (Sam Straley) returns home and announces he's quitting the seminary to go off and "save the world." Times are changing and this family will never be the same.   The Rookie (ABC) Starting over isn't easy, especially for small-town guy John Nolan (Nathan Fillion), who, after a life-altering incident, is pursuing his dream of being an LAPD officer. As the force's oldest rookie, he's met with skepticism from some higher-ups who see him as just a walking midlife crisis. If he can't keep up with the young cops and the criminals, he'll be risking lives including his own. But if he can use his life experience, determination and sense of humor to give him an edge, he may just become a success in this new chapter of his life. Mid-Season / Summer / TBD   Whiskey Cavalier (ABC) Whiskey Cavalier is a high-octane, hour-long action dramedy that follows the adventures of tough but tender FBI super-agent Will Chase (codename: "Whiskey Cavalier"), played by Scott Foley. Following an emotional breakup, Chase is assigned to work with badass CIA operative Francesca "Frankie" Trowbridge (codename: "Fiery Tribune"), played by Lauren Cohan. Together, they lead an inter-agency team of flawed, funny and heroic spies who periodically save the world (and each other) while navigating the rocky roads of friendship, romance and office politics.   Abby's (NBC) Abby's is an unlicensed bar run by Abby (The Grinder's Natalie Morales) in San Diego where the regulars enthusiastically enforce a unique set of rules that give them a sense of community and allow them to avoid the frustrating behavior found at other establishments. The multi-camera comedy will be filmed outside in front of a live studio audience.   The Enemy Within (NBC) In this fast-paced, spy thriller, Erica Shepherd (Jennifer Carpenter) is a brilliant former CIA operative, now known as the most notorious traitor in American history, serving life in a Supermax prison. Against every fiber of his being but with nowhere else to turn, FBI Agent Will Keaton (Morris Chestnut) enlists Shepherd to help track down a fiercely dangerous and elusive criminal she knows all too well. For Keaton, it's not easy to trust the woman who cost him so much. While Shepherd and Keaton have different motivations for bringing the enemy to justice, they both know that to catch a spy... they must think like one.   The Passage (Fox) Based on author Justin Cronin's best-selling trilogy of the same name, The Passage is an epic, character-driven thriller about a secret government medical facility experimenting with a dangerous virus that could either cure all disease or cause the downfall of the human race. The series focuses on 10-year-old Amy Bellafonte (Saniyya Sidney), who is chosen to be a test subject for this experiment, and Brad Wolgast (Mark-Paul Gosselaar), the federal agent who becomes her surrogate father as he tries to protect her.   Schooled (ABC) This spin-off of The Goldbergs is set in the 1990s and follows the hilarious teachers of William Penn Academy - led by Tim Meadows (Principal Glascott), Bryan Callen (Coach Mellor) and AJ Michalka (Lainey Lewis) - who, despite their eccentricities and crazy personal lives, are heroes to their students.   Fam (CBS) Fam stars Nina Dobrev and Tone Bell in a comedy about a woman whose vision of a perfect life with her adoring fiancé and his wonderful family is radically altered when her 16-year-old, out-of-control half-sister unexpectedly comes to live with her.   The Fix (ABC) Attorney and author Marcia Clark co-writes and executive produces a new legal drama about Maya Travis (Robin Tunney), an L.A. district attorney who suffers a devastating defeat when prosecuting an A-list actor for double murder. With her high-profile career derailed, she flees for a quieter life in Washington. Eight years later, when this same celebrity is under suspicion for another murder, Maya Travis is lured back to the DA's office for another chance at justice.   Grand Hotel (ABC) Eva Longoria executive produces this bold, provocative drama set at the last family-owned hotel in multicultural Miami Beach. Charismatic Santiago Mendoza (Demian Bichir) owns the hotel, while his glamorous second wife, Gigi (Roselyn Sanchez), and their adult children enjoy the spoils of success. The hotel's loyal staff round out a contemporary, fresh take on an upstairs/downstairs story. Wealthy and beautiful guests bask in luxury, but scandals, escalating debt and explosive secrets hide beneath the picture-perfect exterior. The show is based on the Spanish series.   I Feel Bad (NBC) Produced by Amy Poehler, this half-hour comedy follows a woman (Sarayu Blue) and her unfiltered takes on trying to have it all. It's based on the book I Feel Bad. All Day. Every Day. About Everything. written by Orli Auslander. Paul Edelstein also stars.   The InBetween (NBC) Following in the steps of Ghost Whisperer, this paranormal procedural focuses on a woman who can communicate with the dead. Harriet Dyer stars as Cassie Bishop, a woman who uses her clairvoyant gifts in order to help the police solve some of the city's most puzzling cases. Arrow's Paul Blackthorne will also star, having left The CW show ahead of its seventh season.   Proven Innocent (FOX) This midseason drama follows an underdog criminal defense firm led by Madeline Scott (Rachelle Lefevre), a fierce and uncompromising lawyer with a hunger for justice. At age 18, she was wrongfully convicted, along with her brother Levi (Riley Smith), in a sensational murder case that made her an infamous media obsession, a household name and a national cause célèbre. Madeline's bold and bullish tactics earn her a number of enemies -- especially Gore Bellows (Brian d'Arcy James), the prosecutor who initially put her away and still believes in her guilt. Despite Bellows' ceaseless quest to see her behind bars again, Madeline will continue to defend others, even as she fights to maintain her innocence and searches for the real killer in her own case.   The Red Line (CBS) From acclaimed producers Ava DuVernay and Greg Berlanti, The Red Line follows the lives of three vastly different Chicago families whose stories of loss and tragedy intersect in the wake of the mistaken shooting of an African American doctor by a white cop. The Red Line cast includes Noah Wyle, Emayatzy Corinealdi and Aliyah Royale.   Rel (Fox) Rel Howery (The Carmichael Show) stars in this comedy loosely based on his life. Set in Chicago, it follows Lil Rel, a positive-thinking man whose ideals are put to the test when he discovers his wife has been cheating on him. As Lil Rel rebuilds his life after a divorce, he tries to find love and respect on the South Side.   The Village (NBC) The Village is a brownstone in Brooklyn with exceptionally unique tenants despite its ordinary exterior. The show will tell the heartwarming and challenging stories of the residents, which include Sarah, a single mom and nurse; Gabe, a young law student with a much older roommate; Nick, a war veteran; and Ava, a mother protecting her son from ICE.

Welcome to Season 2! Jesi, Lauren, and special guest, director Barnet Kellman take a deep dive into Murphy and Miles’ relationship in this season opener (and pod favorite), written by creator Diane English. Learn behind the scenes factoids direct from the set, secrets from the script, and Jesi teaches us some behind-the-scenes history! Bonus fun: The gals reconstruct the moments usually cut from syndication! Join us Monday, Oct 8th for Part 2! www.MurphyBrownpod.com

WELCOME TO MURPHY BROWN WEEK! Take a look back at our first episode as we gear up for "Murphy Thursday" with new episodes of Murphy Brown on CBS and (In your ear holes) the podcast! (Yay, Season 2!)Join us all week for Encore episodes of the pod! FYI: The Murphy Brown podcast is an episode-by-episode discussion of the landmark sitcom Murphy Brown (1988-1998). Hosted by super fans actor/writers Lauren Milberger & Jesi Mullins, the series will not only break down each episode of the ten-year series but also discuss behind-the-scenes tidbits, modern parallels, and Murphy's relevance to today. Recorded LIVE from AntennaTV Facebook Live feed in NYC. Lauren & Jesi talk not only the origins of Murphy Brown but their own history with the show. Follow the show on social media, twitter, Instagram and facebook @murphybrownpod. *Lauren is mortified she misspoke Diane English’s Birthday is 05/18 Join us in two weeks with season 1, episode 1: Respect.

"Murphy Brown's" creator and star speak candidly about how the rise of Donald Trump drove them back into business together, 20 years after the original CBS comedy signed off. The pair offer a glimpse into how the show is tackling a wildly different media landscape and the emotional journey of reuniting with cast and crew members.

Welcome to our Season 1 wrap-up with series director and architect of Murphy Brown, Barnet Kellman. The gals discuss Barnet’s early life and how TV lead him to theater and then back again, as well as the series regular casting process, the origins of Frank Fontana, the real story of casting Miles Silverberg, and how Barnet met Diane English! Stay tuned next week for Part Two! And join our Patreon to get a special sneak preview of Part 2! www.patreon.com/MurphyBrownpod Check out Show Notes at www.MurphyBrownpod.com. Please also review/rate/subscribe to the podcast on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts

Put on your disco shoes and book those Hustle lessons (or not)! The pod enters 1977 and one of the few Murphy Brown flashbacks episodes with this Diane English-written pod favorite: Summer of ‘77. Topics include: Flea Markets, women anchors in the late 20th century, Linda Ellerbee, the Diane English’s DVD commentary. Also, Lauren goes into the history of the word “Cockamamie” and Jesi has some fun news to announce! Check out Show Notes at www.MurphyBrownpod.com. Please also review/rate/subscribe to the podcast on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts!

The gals are happy to welcome to the show Emmy Award-winning actor Richard Schiff! (“The West Wing,” ABC’s “The Good Doctor”) It is only fitting considering how often Jesi and Lauren reference Toby Ziegler and “The West Wing” on the pod! Richard appeared in Season 6, Episode 21, “Anything by Cured” written by friend of the pod Russ Woody (as well as appeared on another Diane English show “Love & War”). Topics include: Richard’s origin story, acting as a process, platonic friendships on TV ( i.e. CJ/Toby), and working with Allison Janney, Plus, our hosts ask Richard a “West Wing” question they’ve been waiting years to ask, will he answer it? WEST WING FINAL SEASON SPOILER WARNING at 1:04.57 You can check out more on this episode (including a picture of Richard in his 1994 appearance on Murphy Brown) in Show Notes under Episodes: www.murphybrownpod.com. If you like what you hear please leave us a review on iTunes.

The gals are excited to celebrate a belated Mother’s Day with Colleen Dewhurst’s first episode of Murphy Brown (her Emmy Winning role as Murphy’s mother: Avery Brown, Sr.) written by series creator Diane English. Topics include: Parent/child relationships, head canon, and Ms. Dewhurst’s life/career, including her experience working on Murphy Brown in her own words! Check out Show Notes for more on this episode at www.murphybrownpod.com

Jesi and Lauren are back to chat Season One, Episode 12: “Why Do Fools Fall in Love?” written by friend of the pod, Korby Siamis. Topics include: Is Amy Yasbeck really in this episode? Frank’s issues, Jim’s flaws, and the gals wax nostalgic on the death of the network TV miniseries. Also included: A brief update on the Murphy Brown revival returns and new casting, plus a few tidbits on the episode (this time about Diane English) via Korby. And the gals briefly chat about the evolution of terms in LGBTQ terminology according to GLAAD. Check out the show notes and read more about what was discussed in today’s episode under “Episodes” on: www.murphybrownpod.com!

Lauren and Jesi are excited to chat about a pivotal episode, according to Diane English, in the development of Candice Bergen as Murphy Brown! It’s also the first episode written by Steven Peterman & Gary Dontzig - who would go on to executive produce the series in Season Five. Topics include: The fear of irrelevance after a certain age, the history behind Frank’s jacket, and strong female role models who get things done….and more on the Jersey accent. Read more about this episode’s topics in our show notes on www.murphybrownpod.com!

In Episode 83, we're talking the delightful aroma of American Crime Story star Darren Criss and the awful scent of bad dates.  Seriously, though, we have a lot to discuss. From a wonderful new food series on Netflix to Lifetime's trainwreck of a Corey Haim/Corey Feldman biopic to a surprise series that has prompted Jack to keep his Starz subscription, we end up talking a lot. Not to mention, Aaron hasn't left the house in a few days -- so he's hopped up on sugar and whiskey. We are now on Google Play, Player.FM and Spotify. So come find us. And if you're listening to us on iTunes, welcome! Please give us a review while you're there! Now, without further ado... NEWS HIGHLIGHTS THIS WEEK: FX ordered a "What We Do In the Shadows" series from Taika Waititi & Jemaine Clement. The Season 8 midseason premiere of "The Walking Dead" will run 82 minutes (not including commercials). It'll act as a send-off for the latest main character to die. Season 2 of "Riverdale" will feature a musical episode inspired by Stephen King's "Carrie." It'll air on April 18th and “feature 11 songs and be framed as a documentary about the high school theater production filmed by Jughead Jones.” "Murphy Brown" is returning to CBS for 13 episodes in the 2018-2019 season. Show creator Diane English and star Candice Bergen are signed on for the reboot. Meryl Streep has signed on to star in Season 2 of "Big Little Lies." She will play Mary Louise Wright who is described as a woman concerned for the well-being of her grandchildren following her son's death. AARON'S LOSERS: "Let's Get Physical" and "A Tale of Two Coreys"JACK'S LOSERS: "Let’s Get Physical" AARON'S FENCERS: "End of the Fxxxing World" and "Child Support"JACK'S FENCERS: "Philip K. Dick’s Electric Dreams," "Black Card Revoked" and "Trolls: The Beat Goes On" AARON'S WINNERS: "Somebody Feed Phil"/"I'll Have What Phil's Having," "Drunk History,"SNL's" Fresh Prince of Bel Air parody, "The Assassination of Gianni Versace: American Crime Story" and "Counterpart"JACK'S WINNERS: "Counterpart" Be sure to subscribe on iTunes and comment! Find us on Twitter: @PunchDrunk_TV, @flatlinejack and @aaronflux  Join the conversation on Facebook. Welcome to Episode 83. As always, #ClinktheDrink.  

It’s that time of year! A TV tradition since the dawn of TV, the Christmas Episode! Jesi and Lauren go deep into Murphy Brown’s first Christmas (and Hanukkah) episode, “Murphy’s Pony”, written by series creator, Diane English. Topics include: snowstorms, Murphy’s outfits, toys, Murphy tirades…and then we end the show with a Yiddish lesson from co-host Lauren.

Lauren and Jesi chat about a pod favorite, season 1 episode 4 - “Signed, Sealed, Delivered” - written by series creator, Diane English. This episode is famous for introducing a pivotal character in the series, Murphy’s ex-husband Jake Lowenstein, played by Robin Thomas (“Crazy Ex-Girlfriend”, “Halloween Town”, “Who’s The Boss”). Topics include: how women can be strong and feminine simultaneously, can you really know someone after only five days, and…does Murphy Brown have a “type”? Leave us a message about what Murphy Brown means to you and we may play it on the show: 646. 450.6902. Or email a voice note from your phone to murphybrownpod@gmail.com.

Welcome to the start of Season One! Lauren and Jesi go through the pilot episode of Murphy Brown, “Respect”, written by series creator Diane English. The ladies talk about the amazing guest stars, behind-the-scenes tidbits, and personal anecdotes from the co-hosts -- including who has fondled an Emmy (like Frank Fontana), and who has personal knowledge of Murphy (her addiction to a #2 soft pencils). Shoulder pads and secretaries await you! Don’t forget to listen/follow our Spotify playlist “Murphy Brown Empowerment Playlist” and join us at www.murphybrownpod.com for all your show needs! Or follow us across social media (Twitter, Facebook & Instagram) at MurphyBrownpod

FYI: The Murphy Brown podcast is an episode-by-episode discussion of the landmark sitcom Murphy Brown (1988-1998). Hosted by super fans actor/writers Lauren Milberger & Jesi Mullins, the series will not only break down each episode of the ten-year series but also discuss behind-the-scenes tidbits, modern parallels, and Murphy's relevance to today. Recorded LIVE from AntennaTV Facebook Live feed in NYC. Lauren & Jesi talk not only the origins of Murphy Brown but their own history with the show. Follow the show on social media, twitter, Instagram and facebook @murphybrownpod. *Lauren is mortified she misspoke Diane English’s Birthday is 05/18 Join us in two weeks with season 1, episode 1: Respect.

Southgate Media Group podcast marathon, Elgin, IL Feb. 26, 1996 CBS Monday night line-up, 4 women-centric sitcoms Elizabeth Taylor's "Black Pearls" perfume line launch The Nanny, Fran Dresher, 3rd season - directed by Dorothy Lyman Can't Hurry Love, one season, starring Mariska Hargitay and Nancy McKeon Murphy Brown, 8th season episode co-written by Diane English and Sarah Dunn High Society, one short season starring Mary McDonnell and Jean Smart. Cross promotion genius  

Stephen Nathan (Bones, Joan of Arcadia, Family Law) discusses career in executive producing sit-coms and one-hour drama series and offers a detailed look into a ten-year run on the hit comedy-procedural Bones.   We talk about: The future of consuming visual content Writing and executive producing Bones for a decade  The special 200th "Hitchcock" episode of Bones in Technicolor The evolution of two central characters  Balancing plot and character within episodes Social media fan support -- the positive and the negative Transitioning from New York and the stage to LA and a role in Bonanza  The demanding schedule of a showrunner Cross-training with playwriting   Quotes from the show: "Ten years on one show... I could have become a doctor." "There are two characters; we pick them up at one part of their lives, and then, when the series ends, you leave them in another part of their lives." "The more controversial something is-- or the more upset the audience was-- the more they talked about it, and the more people wanted to see what they were talking about." "I have felt so lucky and so fortunate to be able to do what I love, and eat because of it. I don't take that lightly." "There has to be an element of truth. That holds true for any genre, any literature... What's the ticker? What's that little piece of humanity that's the reason we watch the show?"

00 Alela Diane & Ryan Francesconi - Migration 01 Heather Woods Broderick - Mama Shelter 02 Sandy Denny - Who knows where the time goes 03 Michael Hurley - Troubled waters 04 Townes Van Zandt - I'll be here in the morning 05 Barna Howard - Quite a feelin' BONUS TRACK: Peter Broderick - I've tried