Podcast appearances and mentions of Keah Brown

In this week's episode I sat down with Keah Brown. Keah is an award winning journalist, author, and screenwriter. Her work on disability, identity, and pop culture has appeared in Town & Country Magazine, Teen Vogue, Elle, The LA Times, Marie Claire UK, And The New York Times, among other publications. We discuss the connection between disability and celebrity, not having time for imposter syndrome, the pressure of writing an acknowledgements page and much, much more.Join The Patreon: Click ⁠⁠Here⁠⁠Follow Keah: Instagram: @keah_maria TikTok: @keah_maria Website: https://keahbrown.comFollow Me: Instagram: ⁠⁠@jill_ilana⁠⁠ , ⁠⁠@alwayslookingup.podcast⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠@jillian_ilana⁠⁠ Website: ⁠⁠https://www.jillianilana.com⁠⁠ Email: ⁠⁠alwayslookingup227@gmail.com⁠⁠Read With Me:⁠⁠Goodreads⁠⁠⁠⁠The StoryGraph⁠⁠Relief For Disabled People Impacted By The Los Angeles Fires:The Partnership For Inclusive Disaster Strategies: https://disasterstrategies.orgRichard Devylder Disaster Relief Fund: ⁠⁠https://disabilitydisasteraccess.org/rd-relief-fund/⁠⁠United Spinal Disaster Relief Grant: ⁠⁠https://unitedspinal.org/disaster-relief-grant/⁠⁠Inevitable Foundation Emergency Relief Fund: ⁠⁠https://www.inevitable.foundation/erf⁠⁠This episode was edited and produced by Ben Curwin

When you live in a disabled body, you don't always get to see yourself in the love stories you consume. Anita talks with three folks changing that through their own writing. She meets a novelist, essayist and activist who share their disability love stories and how writing has changed their relationships with others and themselves.Meet the guests:- Keah Brown, journalist and author of "The Pretty One," talks about her experience with cerebral palsy and her multi-year journey to self-love- Maria Town, activist and CEO and president of the American Association of People with Disabilities, discusses opening up about her romantic relationship for the first time in her essay, ”This is My Solemn Vow”- Talia Hibbert, British romance author, digs into how her own experiences as a disabled person inform the romantic leads that she writesRead the transcript | Review the podcast on your preferred platformFollow Embodied on X and Instagram Leave a message for EmbodiedSign up for WUNC's new Politics Newsletter here.Dive deeper:“Disability Intimacy,” edited by activist Alice Wong

This week, the BFF's are joined by the one and only Keah Brown, creator of the hashtag #DisabledandCute to celebrate the episode you've all been asking us for - a deep dive into our favorite white people sh*t (an ode to Jade & XD if you will).  We talk tv, music and pop culture moments - and give Hilary Duff her flowers for ending homophobia, in that order.  Make the haters mad and rate us 5 stars.  Watch the live recording on our Youtube channel here! Send us an email with your thoughts/comments about the show: BlackFatFemmePod@gmail.com Follow the show on social: Twitter | Instagram Follow DoctorJonPaul: Twitter | Instagram | Website  Follow Jordan: Twitter | Instagram | Website  Follow Keah: Twitter | Instagram | Website See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week, 411 Teen talks with Keah Brown and her experiences overcoming the challenges of race and disability, as well as her collection of essays, "The Pretty One".

Anney and Samantha discuss disability activist Keah Brown's joyous work The Pretty One: On Life, Pop Culture, Disability and Other Reasons to Fall in Love with Me in this classic episode.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Teen dancers Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Keah Brown can't stop the beat while discussing Hairspray (2007). Buy Keah's novel The Secret Summer Promise, out now! https://www.levinequerido.com/the-secret-summer-promise (This episode contains spoilers) For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast Follow @Keah_Maria  on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante, and @jamieloftusHELPSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome to the TeachHER Podcast Powered by The Innocent Brown Girl Project. Our mission is to convey strategies for Grit & Grace with educators and advocates of African American and Latina Girls. Thank you for joining us today. Today, our guest is Sharee Miller. Sharee is an illustrator and author best known for her acclaimed picture book Don't Touch My Hair. Her other books include Princess Hair, and Michelle's Garden: How the First Lady planted seeds of Change. Sharee is currently working on her debut graphic novel series Curlfriends and the graphic novel adaptation of One Crazy Summer by Rita Willams-Garcia. She is also the illustrator of Sam's Super Seats by Keah Brown and The Shai and Emmie series by Quvenzhané Wallis. Social Media: TeachHER Podcast (Instagram) The Innocent Brown Girl Project (Instagram) The Innocent Brown Girl Project (Website) Guest Social Media Info: Coily and Cute (Instagram) Websites Mentioned: Sharee Miller (Website)  

In this episode Keah Brown shares about her journey from self-hate, rooted in a moment in time when another child made fun of her, to self-love. She shares how this has inspired her work, including children's book, Sam's Super Seats, and young adult novel, The Pretty One. Our conversation explores societal narratives about disability and the impact of those narratives in the lives of people with disabilities. I love that Keah considers herself a "fan of life." This episode is uplifting and thought-provoking. This is an episode you want to share with young people as well. Keah Brown Bio Links Mentioned Sam's Super Seats The Pretty One Keah Brown TEDx Talk You Are the Best Thing - Tarana Burke and Brene Brown The Secret Summer Promise #DisabledAndCute Keah on Instagram Keah on Facebook KeahBrown.com Stay Connected with Diana Diana's Website Free Resource - 5 Keys to Going Beyond Awareness Beyond Awareness: Bringing Disability into Diversity in K-12 Schools & Communities - Diana's Book Ed Roberts: Champion of Disability Rights - Diana's Children's Book Ed Roberts: Champion of Disability Rights Thematic Unit/ Disability History Lesson Plans "Beyond Awareness" Digital Course Diana's TEDx Talk Beyond Awareness Facebook Page Diana on Instagram Beyond Awareness Tote Bag Beyond Awareness Pullover Hoodie Beyond Awareness Raglan Baseball T-Shirt Beyond Awareness Journal/Notebook Diana's Teachers Pay Teachers Store - Disability as Diversity Diana's Brand New Resource: Beyond Disability Awareness: An Educator's Guide, Published by National Professional Resources, Inc. (NPR, Inc.) Credits and Image Description Intro and outro music courtesy of Emmanuel Castro. Podcast cover photo by Rachel Schlesinger Photography. Podcast cover image description: Black and white photograph of Diana, a Spanish-American woman with long, wavy, brown hair. She is wearing a flowy, white blouse and smiles at camera as she leans against wooden building. Photo is colorfully framed with gold and orange rays of seeming sunshine on top half, and with solid sage green color on bottom half. Text reads "Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters, Diana Pastora Carson, M.Ed."

in this episode  I talk Keah Brown,  who is a journalist, author, studying actress and screenwriter. She is the recipient of Ulta Beauty's Muse 100 award, Which is a celebration of 100 inspirational voices around beauty, she is one of The Root's 100 most influential African Americans of 2018. Keah is the creator of the viral hashtag, #DisabledAndCute. Her work has appeared in Town & Country Magazine, Teen Vogue, Elle, Harper's Bazaar, Marie Claire UK, And The New York Times, among other publications. Her Debut essay collection, The Pretty One is out now. Her debut picture book, Sam's Super Seats is out now via Kokila books. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/lmbdl/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/lmbdl/support

This week, Eva and Katryn talk about how to feed your creativity, from the seedling of an idea through revisions. Music, exercise, mood boards and lots and lots of television? It all works. Eva talks about her childhood crushes (hello, Colm Wilkinson and Devon Sawa in Casper!) and Katryn explains how the Goo Goo Dolls made her buy a refrigerator. Sources Behold the wonder of original Jean Valjean, Colm Wilkinson Also, Katryn…really likes Butterflies and Hurricanes by Muse The yachties of Below Deck have a recipe for espresso martinis because of COURSE they do This article is a good overview if you missed the Barnes and Noble malarkey that is causing bestselling authors of color (like Kelly Yang, Meg Medina, and Keah Brown) to point out the systemic racism and ableism inherent in bookstores at the corporate level. Eva's playlist for “Seducing the Creative Spirit”: Evermore by Taylor Swift, I Will Follow You Into The Dark by Miya Folick, Now & Then by Lily Kernshaw & Goody Grace, Oh Baby by LCD Soundsystem Katryn's playlist: Gillian Anderson by Silent Meow, A Bad Dream by Keane, Cathedrals by Jump, Little Children Spotify Playlist of all songs! Follow us on Instagram: @evadeslaurbooks @katrynwrites @writewhereithurtspod *Tune in next time for another episode powered by broken hearts, belly laughs (and bourbon). Don't forget to RATE, REVIEW, and SUBSCRIBE wherever you listen

Maiysha speaks with Disability Rights Advocate and best-selling author Keah Brown about finding her writer's voice, advocating for inclusion, and how going viral on Twitter impacted her life.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Author Keah Brown joins Zerlina on the show to talk about her new children's book "Sam's Super Seats" out now!SAM'S SUPER SEATS centers around a young Black disabled girl named Sam, who finds joy throughout her day. Keah's story, which is loosely based on her childhood with Cerebral Palsy, is breaking barriers. According to the Cooperative Children's Book Center, only 3.4% of children's titles in 2019 featured a disabled protagonist, bringing SAM'S SUPER SEATS to the forefront of representation. 

Keah Brown is the creator of #DisabledAndCute, journalist, screenwriter, author and whose writing has appeared in Teen Vogue, Elle, and The New York Times, among other publications. Her debut essay collection, The Pretty One is out now and her debut picture book, Sam's Super Seats will be out in the Fall of 2022.  Keah is joined by Ryan O'Connell, actor, director and writer whose work has appeared in Vice, BuzzFeed, and other publications including The New York Times. He is the author of the memoir, I'm Special: And Other Lies We Tell Ourselves, which he adapted into the Emmy nominated TV series Special on Netflix. His new novel, Just By Looking At Him, is set to drop on June 7th and he plays Julian on Queer as Folk, which debuts June 9th on Peacock. In their first ever conversation with each other, these multi-hyphenate authors get real about the benefits of their Virgo-driven ambition, the constant struggle to push back against the limitations placed on them as disabled artists and the importance of savoring their success.

Transcript: https://bit.ly/AIAe034Today's guest is Keah Brown. Keah is a journalist, author, studying actress and screenwriter. She is the recipient of Ulta Beauty's Muse 100 award, Which is a celebration of 100 inspirational voices around beauty. She's also one of The Root's 100 most influential African Americans of 2018. Keah is the creator of the viral hashtag, #DisabledAndCute. Her work has appeared in Town & Country Magazine, Teen Vogue, Elle, Harper's Bazaar, Marie Claire UK, And The New York Times, among other publications. Her Debut essay collection, The Pretty One is out now. Her debut picture book, Sam's Super Seats will be out Fall 2022 via Kokila books.Connect with Keah:https://keahbrown.com/https://www.instagram.com/keah_maria/The Pretty One: https://www.amazon.com/Pretty-One-Culture-Disability-Reasons/dp/1982100540/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1652820362&sr=8-2Sam's Super Seats: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=keah+brown&crid=1Z1OLS3SDA4QY&sprefix=keah+br%2Caps%2C100&ref=nb_sb_ss_retrain-deeppltr_2_7Connect with the Rocky Mountain ADA Center at https://rockymountainada.org/ or find us on social media. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify or anywhere else you get your podcasts!

In this episode we celebrate International Women's Day with a quick show & tell of some unicorn ladies doing important work out in the world. Check out more about Avesta Rasta at azuravesta.com where you can also see her viral Covid infographic, you can follow her on instagram @azuravesta.design and @lumisci More medical illustrators to check out include Ni-ka Ford (@n_biovisuals), Hillary Wilson (@hillarydwilsonart), Caitlin Chang (@caitchang), SJ Okemow (@vernacularstudios). If you want to know more about Keah Brown check out her website at keahbrown.com , you can also find her on Instagram @keah_maria and make sure to check out her book The Pretty One. If you're interested in booking Keah Brown, her information is Rep: @alexslateragent Film/tv: @havenla There are some amazing women and non-binary people do great things out there and that includes yourself and the women around you. You don't need to have your own Wiki page to make an impact. Be sure to share any ladies you'd love for us to feature! Thanks to Josef Scott of Citizens of Tape City for our theme music and Dollipop Art for our podcast artwork - you can find her on instagram @dollipop.art. We want to hear from you! If you have a question you'd like us to answer or a topic you'd like us to cover on the show, drop us a line at biracialunicorns@gmail.com or leave us a voicemail at (505) 585-1808. Like us on facebook or follow us on instagram to join in on the discussion - we're @biracialunicorns. We're now on twitter as @biracialmagic so catch us there too. If you'd like to support the show with some cash money visit us at https://www.buymeacoffee.com/biracialunicorn Please review us wherever you get your podcasts or even better tell your friends to listen. :D Find out more at https://biracialunicorns.pinecast.co This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Devin and Carolina talk to award winning journalist, actress, screenwriter and author of THE PRETTY ONE Keah Brown about all things pop culture and romance - including the importance of friendship as exemplified by Cristina Yang and Meredith Grey, putting all of our hopes and dreams into Beth and Randall's love on This is Us, not wanting to go shopping with your friend's boyfriend, how to navigate jealousy, unlearning what society tells us about how to love ourselves, how to prioritize self love while still wanting to be loved, young adult romance fantasies and the importance of representation in TV and Film. Leah's new children's book SAM'S SUPER SEATS is available for preorder now! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

Welcome to the one hundred and ninety-sixth episode of the Heart + Hustle Podcast! 0:00 - 16:45 - Hi comrades! We're sharing two Black businesses to support this week, Black Brew Bros and Kismet + Charisma. 16:45 - 1:18:00 - Continuing our theme of having our favorite guests revisit us, we're talking to the amazing Keah Brown, author, and #TypingBaddie. Keah talks to us about why she's choosing herself, what the process has been to write her latest book, and shares what Black excellence means to her. You can find Keah at keahbrown.com or on Instagram at instagram.com/keah_maria. For show notes and a list of everything we talked about, visit www.heartandhustlepodcast.com.

Once upon a time, Caitlin and Jamie invite special guest Keah Brown to examine Ever After! (This episode contains spoilers) For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast. Follow @Keah_Maria on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

This week Stacy, Shannon, and Sara recommend some body positive books. Titles mentioned include: Seressia Glass: The Love Con Erika Robuck, The Invisible Woman L.J. Shen, Playing with Fire Stacy Reid, My Darling Duke (Sinful Wallflowers #1) Ariel Henley, A Face for Picasso: Coming of Age with Crouzon Syndrome Talia Hibbert, Get a Life, Chloe Brown (Brown Sisters #1) Keah Brown, The Pretty One: On Life, Pop Culture, Disability, and Other Reasons To Fall In Love with me Ali Stroker, The Chance To Fly Roni Loren, Yes & I Love You (Say Everything #1) Patricia D. Eddy, Rogue Officer (Gone Rogue #2) Denise Williams, The Fastest Way To Fall Olivia Dade, Teach Me (There's Something About Marysburg #1) You can always contact the Book Bistro team by searching @BookBistroPodcast on facebook, or visiting: https://www.facebook.com/BookBistroPodcast/ You can also send an email to: TheBookBistroPodcast@gmail.com For more information on the podcast and the team behind it, please visit: http://anchor.fm/book-bistro

Happy Black History Month! Follow our six-part series celebrating Black disabled women who are making, and have made history. Today, Olivia honors Keah Brown, a prolific writer, Actress, and advocate, author of the essay collection “The Pretty One,” and creator of the hashtag #disabledandcute to celebrate beauty in disabled people.   Learn More! Keah Brown's Website https://keahbrown.com/ 'Representation matters': How these 4 Black women with disabilities are changing the narrative https://www.today.com/health/representation-matters-how-these-4-black-women-disabilities-are-changing-t212451   Email us! intersectionalinsights@gmail.com. Follow us!  Instagram https://www.instagram.com/isquaredpodcast/ Twitter @I_squaredpod https://twitter.com/I_SquaredPod Facebook page http://www.fb.me/ISquaredPod   Music Credit: Thanks to PurplePlanet.com for the intro music!

Keah Brown is a disability rights activist, author, journalist and writer. She is also known as the creator of the hashtag #DisabledAndCute, which first went viral in February 2017 and caught the attention of such celebrities as Sophia Bush and Brie Larson. She joined me on Dec. 22, 2021. 

01:03 - Not Giving Into Peer Pressure 02:31 - Reaching Outside of the Accessibility World (Demystifying Accessibility) * Everyday Accessibility by Dr. Michele A. Williams (https://www.a11yproject.com/posts/2021-06-14-everyday_accessibility/) * Thinking About Disability Until It's Everyone's Normal Way of Thinking * Power Structures and Erasing Innovation * Recognizing Specialty * Cormac Russell: Four Modes of Change: To, For, With, By (https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/4510.pdf) 12:37 - The Real Work of Accessibility: Organizational Change * Taking a Stance and Celebrating Innovation * Inclusion 17:52 - Avoiding Dysfunctional Ways of Working * The 5 Principles of Human Performance: A contemporary update of the building blocks of Human Performance for the new view of safety by Todd E. Conklin PhD (https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Human-Performance-contemporary-updateof/dp/1794639144) * Context Drives Behavior * How Leaders Respond Matters * Set Up The System So The Right Thing Is Easy 26:46 - Moral Obligations and Social Norms: Top Down * PAPod 36 - Martha Acosta Returns - The 4 Things Leaders Control (https://preaccidentpodcast.podbean.com/e/papod-36-martha-acosta-returns-the-4-things-leaders-control/) * Roles * Processes and Practices * Values/Norms * Incentives 31:20 - Personas: Translating Ideas and Principles Into Action * Software Security: Building Security In by Gary McGraw (https://www.amazon.com/Software-Security-Building-Gary-McGraw/dp/0321356705) 37:04 - Putting Accessibility Into Action * Knowledge Building: Iterate * Giving Access * “Appreciate the bunt.” * Clearer Consequences * Greater Than Code Episode 162: Glue Work with Denise Yu (https://www.greaterthancode.com/glue-work) 51:06 - “Disability Dongles” – Liz Jackson (https://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/disabled-people-want-disability-design-not-disability-dongles-1.5353131) * The Lows of High Tech – 99% Invisible (https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-lows-of-high-tech/) * Infrastructure Disables Blind Navigation * The Models of Disability (https://www.disabled-world.com/definitions/disability-models.php) * The Pretty One: On Life, Pop Culture, Disability, and Other Reasons to Fall in Love with Me by Keah Brown (https://www.amazon.com/Pretty-One-Culture-Disability-Reasons/dp/1982100540) Reflections: Michele: Finding room for everyone to provide their perspective. John: The real solutions are infrastructural. Rein: Accessibility has to be built-in throughout the process of building and designing software. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: REIN: Hello and welcome to Episode 257 of Greater Than Code. I'm your co-host, Rein Henrichs, and I'm here with my friend, John Sawers. JOHN: Thank you, Rein, and I'm here with our guest, Michele A. Williams. She's the owner of M.A.W. Consulting (Making Accessibility Work). Her 16 years of experience include influencing top tech companies as a Senior User Experience Researcher and Accessibility Consultant, and obtaining a PhD in Human-Centered Computing focused on accessibility. A W3C-WAI Invited Expert, international speaker, published academic author, and patented inventor, she is passionate about educating and advising on technology that does not exclude disabled users. Welcome to the show, Michele. MICHELE: Thank you so much, John and Rein. Thanks for having me. JOHN: You are very welcome and we'll start the show as we always do by asking our standard question, which is what is your superpower and how did you acquire it? MICHELE: I don't think I have the most creative answer to this. [laughs] I kind of hate those, “Oh, tell us something fun about yourself.” But the thing I thought about that came to mind was my ability to not give into peer pressure. [chuckles] And some ways that manifests for instance, I have a technology background and yet I'm almost the least technical person like I was probably one of the last people to get a smartphone. I love my flip phone and you couldn't take it from me. So this idea that everyone's doing this social media, all of that, I just joined Twitter last year. So I do things dagnabbit; when I need it, not necessarily just because there's groundswell. So I would say that's pretty good superpower. JOHN: All right. So you gave some examples there in your personal life with technology and social media. I assume that that's also a fairly powerful capability in a business context as well. MICHELE: I think so. Particularly when you're advocating for say, disabled people who aren't necessarily always advocated for, it definitely helps to have a more strong will and the ability to take a stance that turns others rather than consistently feeling like you're being turned around about what others want you to do. So I agree with that, thanks. JOHN: [chuckles] Excellent. And so it looks like you've been involved in the accessibility world on a number of different angles and capabilities and so, what have you found to be the most impactful of those? MICHELE: I tend to want to reach people who are outside of the accessibility world. Unfortunately, I think sometimes accessibility people can tend to talk to other accessibility people a little bit too much. I tend to like to recognize that it is something that everyone in the world should know a little something about. It is an expertise, but there are some ways that everyone can do it. I just recently wrote an article for A11Y Project called Everyday Accessibility. That's when you're making a Word document, for instance, using the Ribbon, using headings, and buttons, or bulleted lists. So I tend to want to bring everyone on board, and demystify accessibility and make it more attainable and easier to grasp and that feels so much like this expert field that takes years to break it down to those tangible pieces that still make a big difference. REIN: One of the things that I hear a lot when abled people are advocating for accessibility is, “Sure, this helps disabled people, but you should care about it because it helps abled people, too.” How do you feel about that? MICHELE: So that's a conversation that's been coming up a lot, too and I have a particular colleague that sent me their response, for instance and it's a stance that I don't particularly align with because the problem with that stance is you end up keeping the status quo. So there are real consequences to being in a society that does not value disability and you, as someone who doesn't have a disability, do not feel those effects. So until we are a more equitable society, we do have to call out the characteristics that make someone have negative effects. So the reality is yes, there are things like situational impairments, which is when the situation you're in mirrors the impact of a disability such as walking and texting—you're not seeing out of your periphery—or there's temporary disabilities, like you've broken your arm, and then there's just the natural process of aging. All of that is true and you can also figure designing for your future self for that last part. But again, I think that we have to be very mindful that right now we need to overemphasize and think about disability until it is our normal way of thinking. REIN: It also seems like it's conceding the ground that doing what's right for disabled people is enough of a justification. MICHELE: Explain that a little bit more, what you mean by that. REIN: So when you say it helps disabled people, but it also helps abled people, it seems to me like you're saying it's not enough for me to just say that this helps disabled people. I have to give you another reason. MICHELE: Absolutely, absolutely, and that ties back into ableism and the invisibility of disability and the devaluing of disability. Like you said, it's like a disabled person is not enough. It has to also include absolutely right with that way of thinking and that's another reason not to go that route of segmenting it in that way. JOHN: I think this ties into something that you had mentioned earlier that I find really interesting, this idea that able people are doing something for disabled people. MICHELE: Yes, and that's the big thing. When you say like, “What's been on your mind lately?” That's the one that comes to mind and it comes to mind for a couple of different reasons. None of them new, none of them – I did not discover any of this; people have been saying this for decades upon decades. But for me, my personal experience, I will give a talk, an accessibility talk, I might explain something about say, screen readers, or some other technology, or a particular disability and then the response is, “Well, it should work this way,” or “We should do this.” There's a lot of solutioning around what I've just presented without any context of ever having met say, a disabled person, or particularly a person in the disability community that has been talked about and that comes, I think from this idea, a couple of things. One, again, this idea of a power structure where, “Well, I'm doing this for you, disabled person.” Not understanding the empowerment that the disabled person has, or this misunderstanding and again, invisibility of disability in spaces like tech innovation and not understanding, okay, that touch screen you're using, that text-to-speech you love, those captions that you use at the bar; all of these things [chuckles] came from disability. We erased the innovation that came from someone designing for themselves and designing for their ability and it's assisted technology and therefore, it's an add-on when it's for disabled folks, but it's innovation when it's for people who don't have disabilities. I think we need to have a lot more discussion about this, particularly in spaces like user experience, where we're supposed to be all inclusive and all about the user. There's some ways that we really are reinforcing this mindset and this power structure, for sure. JOHN: So I want to check my understanding of what you're saying, just to make sure. Are you saying that when you present a problem, accessibility problem, the abled people, the other UX designers, the other people who want to be helpful jump in with, “Oh, we can do this, we can do that, or that” rather than saying, “Well, let's go talk to some disabled people and find out what they need and let that guide how we solve this problem rather than us just being like, ‘Oh, it would be great if dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.'” MICHELE: So to two stages to that. For the first one yes, that's the first thing that happens. In the assistive technology, broad accessibility world, this manifests in some very familiar ways. The first is the blind navigation. Every year, some engineer thinks they've solved blind navigation, pedestrian navigation. Meaning they've created a belt with vibrations on the left and right with an Arduino, or something and they go, “You don't need a cane anymore because it's going to vibrate left when you need to turn left and right when you need to turn right, and you can walk like a sighted person,” or some variation of that—robot guide dogs, smart cane, something like that, or the sign language gloves, or the stair climbing wheelchair. There's these sort of assistive technologies that always come out with very little context around whether it's actually happening, whether it's actually needed. But then there's something John, about what you said, too about let's see what people need and we'll build it. We have to be careful even with that, too because that assumes that I can't build for myself and that's not true either. [chuckles] Disabled folks are the most innovative people because the world is not accessible. There is a such thing as a specialty. Like I have an accessibility specialty, I have a design specialty, but I think we often think that's someone without a disability. No, a disabled person can also have these specialties, or they can be someone who has the idea of what they need and you're partnering with them with your specialty in say, design to create those solutions. So again, I think we have to be very careful about our wording and our viewpoints of what's actually happening. REIN: There's a framework that I've been using for this that actually comes from aviation safety and there's a European aviation safety magazine where Cormac Russell published an op-ed called Four Modes of Change: To, For, With, By. The idea is that change to is the mode where change has done to us without us. So this is a sort of authoritarian top-down thing. We've got no say in the matter. It's not even necessarily for our benefit. Then change for is a benevolent top-down approach. “I'm trying to help you, but I'm the one who decides what to change.” Change with is a participatory co-creating the change. And then change by is change done by us for us where if I'm, for example, a manager, my role would be find out what support you need so you can make the changes you want to make. MICHELE: Absolutely. Perfect. Thank you. I knew there was some reference. This appears in disability justice spaces, in any kind of space where you're talking about inclusion, we know that sometimes inclusion can be code for do things the way that the current power structure does it. Do things the way that the current people in charge of comfortable and assimilate rather than no, we're actually going to allow you to be your authentic self and come into these spaces. Part of the reason this has also been on my mind is because I fit into some of these other spaces as a woman and as a Black person. I think that sometimes my cohorts think well, because we have experienced some of that in our lives, we are immune to them giving that out to others. So as a Black person, a woman, even someone with intersectionality, I can't possibly do that to do was done to me to someone else. But we don't realize how much ableism is steeped into our society, such that it is very easy to do that with disability and not even realize it and not even realize you have the mentality that someone is inferior to you, incapable, and particularly when the disability has to do with neurological, or anything that we really don't understand. But even still, even that kind of categorization can go away because the idea is that any sort of disability triggers usually some sort of ableist response and these things can happen even if you've experienced it yourself. JOHN: So like so many of the other things we discussed on this podcast, it sounds like the real work of accessibility is organizational change. It's getting the power structures to change to allow these things to come into being rather than forcing them in there, or trying to – like you were saying, not forcing the change on the disabled people to fit in. MICHELE: I've been thinking about the roots of this, for sure. And thank you for that. Unfortunately, capitalism drives a lot of this and again, if we're talking specifically more to tech worlds and say, including accessibility into your tech, part of that is just because the buy-in sometimes comes from the internal stakeholders, not the end customer. Again, if you're not mindful, not careful, and don't have leadership that are careful. So the dirty little secret is for instance internally yes, you may be making education software for students, but you're really marketing to the teachers who are going to buy it, and you're then even more so really marketing to whoever the management structure is internally who's going to approve it to even be on the market. So you get further and further away from actually helping a student because you have all these other checks that it needs to impress, or you need to make the case for similar to what we were saying earlier, you have to make the case for disability. For instance, you have to say, “Well, blind people to do this.” You get this pushback of, “Well, blind people don't do that so we don't have to worry about it and you keep moving on.” So there is a shift that is hard, but I do think it goes back to what I was saying earlier about taking a stance. I think that people do need to individually start to take the stance that that may be how we do things now, or how it may even need to be done. But we do want to be careful buying into that completely because it's going to perpetuate the same. We know that that power dynamic internally of who the stakeholders are, again, also sometimes doesn't reflect the diversity of who we are designing for. We're going to keep getting the same result if we're not super mindful and super careful to take the stance that we are going to care about the diversity of the end users, the people that ultimately will have their hands on what we're making and celebrate that oftentimes those best solutions, again, come from the community who are doing the work. So celebrating the innovation that comes from being tied back to those end users rather than thinking the solution has to come from within. So changing that mindset around this difficult, but it takes taking a stand and recognizing it, too. JOHN: So it's trying to change my thinking around to the by style change around accessibility and my context is on the team of web developers who develop apps that are eventually used by some disabled people. So I'm trying to think about obviously, we need buy-in from the power structures as a company and to spend time on the work, but deciding what work gets done needs to be – that's where the inclusion comes in and I'm curious about what the steps are there that helped me get to that point where those people are included MICHELE: So here's a few ways that that comes about. One of it could just be, okay, this is the feature we're doing and we're going to make sure that this feature that we're doing—however that came about—is assessable. That can come from anything from how you're going to code, like making the decision to use standardized elements that come with accessibility built-in, or whatever knowledge building you can do internally to just bake it into how you are creating that feature. Then there is what is the feature and making sure that that, if nothing else, is as inclusive as possible, or at least not exclusionary. You're not making a feature that will exclude people. Again, that comes from an understanding of who is the audience and making sure everyone understands that. No one, I don't think has fully solved for how to make accessibility the thing that everyone knows does – it's difficult. It takes time. It takes training. It takes science from top down as well as then knowledge from the bottom up. It's a journey. But I think that there are places where decisions are made, that you know you're going one way, or the other, whether it's, I'm using a div, or a button, [chuckles] whether it's we're going to wait to put captions, or we're going to go ahead and build in time to do that, whether it's, again, we're going to put in this very visual feature, or we're going to take a little bit more time to understand how to have an alternative to that feature. So there's lots of places where you can be very intentional, that you are going to take the steps to learn about accessibility from your point of view and then incorporate it. REIN: So let's say that your VP of engineering mandates that every project has to meet a certain accessibility score, or something like that, but you don't train the developers. So you were saying top down and bottom up have to come together. I have seen things like that lead to some pretty dysfunctional ways of working. MICHELE: I can see that [laughs] and I think part of that comes from a misunderstanding that accessibility is not just something you say we're going to do. Like, it's not like we didn't do it because we just simply forgot, or we didn't do it just for reasons that can then you can flip a switch and turn it on. People aren't doing it because they weren't taught it, they aren't fully aware of the diversity of it, they aren't aware of what's required, and then leadership isn't aware. Therefore, that steps have to be taken. So there's a lot of rally around let's be inclusive, let's be assessable, but then there's less so when you learn oh, that means we have to maybe take half of the time to train and disrupt our workflow, or we have to do our workflow differently, or we have to go back to the code we've already written and been using for years and fix it. Those are some real decisions and those are some real consequences sometimes to that, too when you're a business that is expected to constantly move forward, but they are decisions that have to be made in order to actually put it in place, not just say you are for it. REIN: Todd Conklin has a book, The 5 Principles of Human Performance, and there are two that I think are especially relevant here. One is that context drives behavior. So if you want to know why someone is behaving the way they do, the thing to look at is the context that they're operating in, and the other is that how leaders respond to matters. When I think about this, I think if you have a design systems team, is that design system built to be accessible from first principles? Is the easy thing to do grab a component that's already designed to be accessible, or is the easy thing to do is throw a div on the page? MICHELE: Yeah, and there are, I think that the number one takeaway is none of it is easy because all of it is late. So there are initiatives like teachaccess.org; we really need to be embedding it in how we even learn the things that we learned, because then it does feel like we're almost disrupting industry to do this. When in reality, we just learned it wrong. [chuckles] We learn to cheat and to make it look and feel the way I want it to look rather than learning that there was a reason there's this thing called a button versus this thing called a div. Now, recognizing, too, though that standards come after innovation. So you can't standardize something that hasn't really even been explored, or even invented yet. So we understand that as you want technology to advance, it's more difficult to then say, “Okay, there's a standard for this and that will guarantee us accessibility.” So for instance, using native HTML elements isn't all, or when we look at mobile, native mobile elements is more difficult to do. This is still a new space, a growing space and so, sometimes we don't often know what that looks like. But that then requires again, that awareness piece of what disability looks like and this is where they're trying to catch augmented reality and virtual reality with XR Access and accessibility initiatives. Because if you're at least aware of the diversity of disability, you can catch it early enough so that when the standards come out again, we're making it less hard. Someone on a panel I was on last week, talked about like tech debt and this idea of well, it can be overwhelming. Well, if you have less things you need to maintain, it's less overwhelming and that comes from using standards and being aware of standards. You lessen your tech debt; that becomes part of the overall responsibility of standards bodies, for instance. So there are some again, tangible steps that I think just need more awareness and talking about over and over again until we get it right, that can be put in place, should be put in place. Hopefully, it will be put in place to make this less daunting over time. REIN: Yeah, and then on the how leaders respond thing. If someone builds something that's not accessible to you, do you punish them to just drive that behavior underground, or do you say, “Why weren't they able to do it? Do they not have the right expertise? Were they under too much time pressure?” How can I make the context better so that people are more likely to do the behaviors that we're trying to lead them towards? MICHELE: Yeah. Thinking a lot about that, too. So I tend to have two ways. I guess, it's sort of the carrot stick kind of thing, or maybe some other dynamic like that, but we know some people are going to get the altruistic side. Again, awareness. They just weren't thinking about disability. It's not something that's in their life. It's not something that was exposed to them. Once someone is exposed and understands a little bit of the work that needs to be done, they're bought in and they go for it. There are other folks that just are ablest. They just will not care. If it has not affected them personally in their lives, they are going to look – maybe like you said, maybe their motivations are something like money, even though they don't realize they're excluding more consumers. Whatever those things are, they're just not going to buy in. That's when unfortunately things like the threat of lawsuits, or bad publicity has to be the way that you get those folks to turn around, or again, you just do it. [chuckles] So that's when maybe the folks on the ground can just do it regardless and the one thing, I think about is this video that went around with this little baby and there was a parent and a teacher aide. I presume the baby was supposed to be doing their sound it out cards, flashcards, but didn't feel like doing it. The little baby sitting on the floor back turned, the mom and the teachers, they did it. They did the sound out cards. The baby's looking back still playing, but keeps looking back and eventually, the baby goes, “Wait a minute, that's my game,” and next thing you know, they're playing the game. So there is something also, too to like you said, maybe it's just a peer pressure thing. No one else seems to be doing accessibility so why do we have to be the ones to do it? But if the cool kids start doing it, if the company start exposing that they are doing it, if there's enough groundswell, people will just get on board with the thing that everyone is doing, too. So I think maybe there are three ways now—maybe I've added a third in my mind. There are ways – as a user experience person, I say user experience the person that you're dealing with. Like you said, get in their head, what are they thinking? What do you think they would want? But ultimately, understand that it isn't always going to be because it's the right thing and the faster you learn that, the more you might be able to actually get some results, too. JOHN: Yeah. I like what you said there, Rein about set up the system so that the right thing is easy and I think obviously, there's a lot of work to get to that point where you have the whole system built around that. But once you can get there, that's great because then, like you were saying, Michele, there's so much less effort involved in getting the thing to happen because that's just how everyone does it and you're just pulling the components are, or copy pasting from the other parts of the code that are already accessible so that it that stuff is already built into the process. And then it doesn't have to be quite so much of an uphill. Like even just uphill thinking process where you have to think differently than you used to in order to get the thing done in an accessible manner. MICHELE: Yeah. Again, unfortunately it's not embedded within us to do this, but maybe the next generation will, maybe the next couple of generations If we keep talking about it and we take the effort to start to shift ourselves, maybe it will be the thing that people can't even remember when they didn't do it. I do feel like we're in a cool moment right now where that might be possible. I'm hearing it more and more. I didn't learn it in school when I was doing computer science and software engineering, but I know some students now that are coming out that are. So I'm kind of hopeful, but the conversations really need to be said aloud and often in order for it to happen, for sure. REIN: You mentioned the larger structural problem here, which is that designing accessible software is a moral obligation and we work in an economic system that's not optimized around moral obligations. Let's put it that way. MICHELE: Yeah. [laughs] That will dollar. [laughs] I think again, there's that school, are we changing that, or we're going to work within it. I think you can do both. Some people should – we should really be tackling both, any kind of inclusion efforts, same thing. Do you do it from within, or outside? Do you work within the structure, or do you dismantle it? I think there's benefits to both. I think there's benefit to basically editing what isn't working about what we're currently doing. There's always an improvement and I tend to look at it that way. It's not so much as it's down with this and up with that. I think we just need to recognize, as human beings who can evolve and do things different, learn, grow, and get wiser, let's just do that. Let's do what we're doing better and when we recognize that we have a negative effect, let's solution something that is going to work better and just recognize that and do better. It's okay to edit. So I don't think we have to toss our hands up and say, “Oh, we'll never get there because of how this is.” That was invented, too. All of these things are constructs. At some point, the way we do things wasn't the way we did things; we did things completely differently. Empires can fall and rise and be redone. So we don't have to stay stagnant, but we can, again, start to make these changes. REIN: I think that even within a capitalist system, there's still a place for social norms. There's still a place for deciding which behaviors we're going to accept and which behaviors we're not going to accept and what we're going to do about those. I just wouldn't expect that to be the CEO's job. I would expect that to be the entire community of the company. MICHELE: The entire community with the CEOs. So the two companies that are the pillars, for instance, of accessibility, Microsoft and Apple, you hear their CEOs say, “We do things accessibly.” So it's not necessarily on them to forego stakeholders and stock prices and all of that. Certainly, you can't do too much if you don't have a company, so they have to do what they have to do, but there is still an okay from that and that's part of that top-down. Again, we need training. Is there money in the budget for training? That has to come from management. So there is still a recognition and it's just always beneficial when everyone is on the same page that this is how we operate; the message then doesn't ever get disconnected. It just shifts to the role of a person and they put it into practice in their own particular way. REIN: Martha Acosta, who is one of the few original women in safety science, she says that there are four things that leaders can control, or have leverage over—there's roles, there's processes and practices, there's values, or norms, and there's incentives. So I think this ties in with what you're saying about what the CEO's job could be. MICHELE: Versus stock prices? Yeah. [laughs] Versus yeah. Which unfortunately is, again, I think it's even upon the CEO to take a stance on what they are going to do with their company and their time. Because certainly, the pressures are coming to them sometimes not necessarily emanating from them. So I think there is opportunity, this is why there's opportunity for everyone to evaluate what are we doing. Like you said, we can decide what is important, how are we going to go about this? And if enough people start to be even more mindful than they were yesterday, shifts are going to inevitably happen. And people who disregard others, discriminate all of these other negative effects that we've seen will inevitably have less effects because the norm will be these other ways that we're trying to include and get better as a society. REIN: So one of the things I like to think about when we have guests, or ask guests to think about, is to think about this challenge from the perspective of a few different people. A few different personas. So I'm a manager, I'm a line level manager and the people that report to me are engineers. What can I do? Or I am a mid-level engineer, what can I do? How do we translate these ideas and principles into action? MICHELE: So what is to understand that there are, for instance, guidelines like there are web accessibility, web content, accessibility guidelines, or author and tool guidelines, because we do need to define what it means. At some point, there needs to be metrics and there needs to be measures that need to be placed to understand, did we do this? One way to do that is to translate those into those various roles. Some of that work has happened and some of it needs to happen. So there's understanding the tangible actions that can and should happen. But I think also, it's simply a matter of deciding that accessibility and inclusion and particularly in my world, disability is just going to be a part of everything. Every check that you make for whatever your role is. You were talking about different frameworks for different levels. Certainly, that's true. I think that we tend to separate out disability from those kinds of conversations as if it's different. It's not different. Making decisions for how you're going to manage your employees should be inclusive of disabled employees. The tools that you want them to use, the ways you want them to work, how “productive” you want them to be, how you're going to measure that. All of that should be mindful of the variety of people that you are supporting. Same with I am a developer so that means that I am writing code on behalf of a group of other people and that means I need to know who these people are. It's funny you say personas because—I know that's not probably what you meant, but in my role, obviously that triggers the user experience personas, which I'm not a fan of. That's all another podcast. [chuckles] But when we're talking about that so in user experience we're saying, “Oh, we're designing for these people, these target audience per se.” It'll be John who's the manager and he does this on his way to work and then there's Mary. Maybe she's a stay-at-home mom, but uses it this way. Dah, dah, dah, all these other characteristics. And then we'll go so now we need disability personas. No. [chuckles] John can also be quadriplegic. Mary can also have multiple sclerosis. So again, it goes back to the idea that we have separated out and made invisible disability. Oh, taboo. Even the word oh, it's taboo. Can't talk about disability. REIN: Yeah. Like imagine having a separate persona for a woman, or a Black person. MICHELE: Thank you. We don't do it. We don't do the whites only school and we'll get to the Black people later. We know that intrinsically, but we do it in everything. So same thing particularly when we're talking about inclusion of disability in all of these phases of say, an organization, we go, “And disability.” No, no, no. If we really want to think about it, disability is the equalizer. Anyone can become disabled at any moment at any time, it does not discriminate. It is the one thing that any human being can become at any time and yet we still separate it out as if it's this taboo, or a terrible thing. Now, again, there are negative outcomes of disability. Not saying that, but we have this tendency to segment it in ways that just absolutely don't make sense and aren't necessary and are detrimental and make it more work, so. REIN: There's a book called Software Security by McGraw. It's kind of old now, but the premise is still very relevant, which is that to make software secure, you have to build security in at the beginning, and you have to keep constructing and repairing it throughout the software development life cycle. So it starts with design, but it includes, you talked about different touchpoints in the life cycle, where you want to sort of check in on whether you still are as secure as you think you are. So that includes design. It includes code review. It includes testing. I wonder if this sort of an approach works for accessibility, too; we just sort of bake it into the fabric of how you design soft. MICHELE: It should be how it works. The moniker is shift left. That's absolutely what has to happen to do it well. You have to be thinking about it all the time. Everything that you do. So that's how my mind works now. It took a long time to do that. But now when I'm sending an email and I put a picture in, “Okay, let me put the alternative text.” I'm making a spreadsheet, “Okay, let me do the heading.” Like, I'm always constantly checking myself as I'm doing anything. “Okay, if I'm doing a podcast like this, is there a transcript, or are there captions?” I'm just constantly doing these checks. That takes time to build up, but it is the way you have to do it to make sure nothing slips through the cracks so that all the hard work that say, the design team, or the dev team did, and then QA comes in and doesn't know how to test it. We're all interdependent so it has to be everyone all the time, all throughout the process in order to get it from end to end to work; the weak link in the chain will break that. So very much how it has to go. REIN: It also seems like this there are small, actionable things that you could do to move in this direction. So for example, when you do code review, ask some accessibility questions. Maybe build yourself an accessibility checklist. Now I don't like checklists, but that's a whole other podcast, but it's better than not thinking about it. MICHELE: Yeah. As you're learning something, sometimes the checklist is helpful because you don't yet have it in your own mind and you don't want to forget. Now you don't want to – I'm sure what you're saying is you don't want to tie yourself to the checklist, too. REIN: Yeah. MICHELE: But as you're building up knowledge, yes, there are so many just tangible did I do this things that you might as well just keep a sticky at your desk, or however you want to do it and just start doing those things. Again, we don't have to keep talking about it. It doesn't have to be this revelation of inclusive buy-in in order to put captions on your videos. [chuckles] These things, you know. REIN: Yeah. This also seems like an opportunity for tech leads to do leadership to say, “Hey, so I looked at this and the contrast ratio is a little bit low. Do you think we could punch this up in a code review?” MICHELE: Yeah. The only thing, though is back to the beginning—being careful about these directives, making sure you understand the directives that you're doing because again, a lot of times, particularly when people are new to accessibility, they overdo it. So they hear a screen reader and they think it needs to read like a novel so they want to add in a summary of the page in the beginning, a summary of this section, and they want to overly describe the alternative text, the image down to the pixels. There's some give and take there, too. There's some learning you want to do, but you can iterate. You can learn one piece, get comfortable with it. Okay, now that this next piece. Knowledge building it's just what it is, is what it is. So there's absolutely knowledge building that you can do to get more comfortable and we need everyone to do this. There's certain parts that should be specialty, but unfortunately, the specialists are doing what everyone else should be doing the basics and so, we've got to shift that so that the specialists can do the specialty stuff, the harder stuff that may not quite get – [overtalk] REIN: That's exactly the same problem is having a security person on your team. MICHELE: Absolutely. So it sounds like you all have a focus on implementation. Like you're implementing and you want to know how best to make – I'm turning it on [inaudible]. [laughs] So you want to know how best to make it work for you, or is that what I'm hearing? REIN: I guess, I lean towards practice. I want to understand the theory, but then if I can't put that theory into practice, the theory is not very useful to me. If that makes sense. MICHELE: Absolutely makes sense. My company name is Making Accessibility Work and a lot of what I say is put accessibility into action, because I am very much tied to this idea that you can be absolutely on board with accessibility and not have any clue how to do it. [chuckles] And then the inverse can be true, too. You can absolutely do not care, but because you care about semantic HTML, you're doing more accessibility than the person who cares. There are these places that people can be in their understanding that neither one is actually, or you think one is helping, but the other actually is. I think people think you have to care. You have to want to Sometimes, you know what, you don't. Sometimes I just need you to fix the color contrast, [laughs] or yes, it's great that you care, but in doing so, you're actually, co-opting a message. You care a little too much and you are actually not letting disabled people speak for themselves because you've now discovered accessibility and now, you're all about it. So I think we've got to meet in the middle, folks. Let's care, let's do, let's demystify, but also understand there are some harder problems to solve, but understand where those are. Putting headings on the page is not the hard problem we need to solve. Just put the headings, making math and science more accessible, particularly when we've made it so visualization heavy. Yeah, let's go over there. Let's tinker with that, folks and that's where we need to be putting all this massive brain power. We've had Web Content Accessibility Guidelines for 20 years. HTML5, which addressed a lot of semantics for accessibility, has been out a decade. Y'all, hurry up and learn that and let's get that going so we can get over to this harder stuff. Get this brain power over to these more complex issues and newer innovations. JOHN: Yeah. I think if you're one of those people that cares, like you were saying, a little too much, or perhaps just a lot, you can end up with option lock because you want to solve all the problems and then you're just like, “But what do we do? What are we doing here?” Like, I'll just put the headings in, put the alt texts in, we'll start there. You've got to get moving. And that's partly where I'm coming from with some of the questions I'm asking is that process of just getting that boulder rolling a little bit so that it takes a little bit less effort to keep going in the future. MICHELE: Yeah, and there's no perfect way to do it. I think everyone's looking for okay, well, how do we do it? You're going to spend a year on how and again, miss the year of what and doing it. It is messy because you're hiring people, you've got people working who don't know how to do it; it's going to be disruptive. We didn't come in with this knowledge. I know you didn't hire people to then train them up and send them to school but unfortunately, you've got to do that. People need to know what to do differently, what they're doing wrong. So some of it is going to be experimental, iterative, and messy, but in the end, start giving access. We talk about language even. Do we say disability? Do we say people with? Or do we say disabled people? And do we say differently abled? Even these – okay you know what, the reality is you do all of that and still don't get access. What would be better is if you have a person with a disability at the table to tell you themselves, but you're worried about language and yet can't even hire someone with a disability. So again, it's getting out of these little zones that we sometimes get in and recognizing the real work that needs to be done and can get done today. REIN: I think there's a real temptation to fixate on the hard, or interesting problems in the tech world that might be wanting to build this distributed database with five nines of durability. But your API server has a bug where 1% of the requests are an error. So if you don't fix that, your five nines over here are useless. MICHELE: The flashy thing, yes. [laughs] The shiny thing, we want to gravitate. Oftentimes, there's no glory in what was considered the grunt work, the foundational work. But I think that's where leadership could come in. I heard someone say years ago, “Appreciate the bunts” in baseball that oh, chicks dig the home run. We love the home run, but sometimes, that bunt wins the game. But that's where a leadership can come in and appreciate laying found a scalable foundation of code that does not add to tech debt, or the diminishing of the bugs that you've kept rolling year after year after year, you close 50 of them. That's where, again, a change in mentality of what we value. Sometimes again, accessibility is not put at the front because sometimes it's just code changes that aren't visible to users. So users are going to think you spent a year and didn't do anything to your code, or some of them will. But again, I think that's a messaging and that's an appreciation of really trying to do, and that's even appreciating software engineering versus just COVID. I have a software engineering degree and that's when I realized, “Oh, we're not just supposed to sit down and start hacking away and make sure it runs for the teacher to check it and we're done.” There's an engineering to this, but you have to value that. But also, I think there needs to be clearer consequences like speaking of engineering. If it's a building, we know the building can collapse. I don't think sometimes we appreciate what can happen if we don't do that foundational work and I think that's a shift overall and then technology and appreciation of that work. REIN: And I appreciate what you did there, which was to subtly redirect me back to the context and to how leaders respond. Because if building that five nines database gets you promoted and fixing that bug doesn't, what are people going to do? MICHELE: Yeah. So what's valued and that's set. Someone sets that. That's made up. You can value whatever you want to value. You can praise whatever you want to praise. Complete tangent, but that takes me to my high school where they were intentional that the students who performed well were going to be recognized by the principal because oftentimes, it was the misbehaving students that went to the principal's office. So the principal knows all the misbehaving students, but doesn't know any of the students that are doing the actual work that the school is asking of them to do. Not trying to get too much into school systems but again, it's an intention that you will honor the work, the unseen work. We do these in other spaces; the behind-the-scenes work, the unsung heroes. That's an intentional step that you can take as well to celebrate that, too. REIN: We have an older episode on glue work and how valuable glue work is, but how rarely it's acknowledged, or appreciated, especially by leadership and also, how it has a gender characteristic, for example. It seems to me like it might be easy to put accessibility in the category of glue work rather than in the category of like you were saying, foundational things that make us have a reliable product and a product that works for everyone. MICHELE: And I don't know if how we've presented technology to consumers plays into that as well. Again, the new flashy wow. The other day, I just looked down at my keyboard on my computer and I just thought about we just take such advantage of the fact that I'm just sitting here typing on the keyboard. Someone had to decide what the material would be that doesn't scratch my fingertips. Someone had to decide how to make the letters so that they don't rub off, or how they light up in the back. There's so much detail that goes into almost everything that we use and we just get so dismissive of some of it. “What's next? Eh, that's okay.” So I think, again, it's a human condition. It's the human condition to appreciate what people are doing for one another in front and behind the scenes and absolutely. But I think that also ties into, again, ableism, too. We see in assistive technology, or an adjustment because of disability as okay, that thing we can do later. But then when it becomes Alexa, when it becomes the vacuuming robot, when it becomes the new latest and greatest thing, then it's front and center and everyone wants to work on it. But it's the same technology. [chuckles] It's the same reasons that you should do it. It just happens to benefit everyone. It came out of disability, but you didn't want to think about it until you've found a benefit for all the “others.” Again, I think that's a human condition we have to correct. REIN: There's a thing that happens once a month on Twitter, which is someone will post an image of pre-sliced vegetables and they'll say, “What kind of a lazy loser needs pre-sliced vegetables?” And then someone will respond, “Disabled people need pre-sliced vegetables.” And then the response to that will either be blocking them, or saying, “Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I had no idea.” I think that there's maybe that dynamic going on here as well. MICHELE: Absolutely what I was thinking about, too, like Nike's shoes recently that you don't have to tie. Well, who doesn't want to sit down and tie their shoes? People who can't sit down and tie their shoes, but that was also a marketing issue. They refused to market it for disability. Like where were the disabled people? Where were the people with chronic illness, or chronic pain, or body size that just does not lend itself to bending over and tying your shoes? Why did it have to be marketed in that other way that then took away the messaging that this is a useful piece of equipment? REIN: Yeah. Like why is this fit model not able to tie their shoes? MICHELE: Exactly. Rather than take the angle that – again, they're all made up. Someone just happened to decide laces. We could have very easily decided this other way at the beginning. We could have very easily decided Velcro was the way. We just, I don't know, somewhere along the way, came up with laces. I think people in general have to go through their own journey of recognizing that what they were told was fact, truth, and stance just with someone's made up thing. Even these companies that we've just hold as pillars started in garages. They may have started in garages a 100 years ago, rather than just 50, or 20 years ago. But these things are just built. So we can build them differently. We can say them differently. It's okay. So taking away that stigma that things have to go a certain way and the way that they've been going, or at least perceived to have been going. We have got to start dismantling that. JOHN: Harking back here, a point earlier about the new shiny is always held up as always better. I read an article recently about prosthetic arms and how everyone's always really interested in building new robotic prosthetic arms. They're the new shiny, they're the cool thing to work on, and people feel good about working on them because they feel like they're helping people who need them. But that in a lot of cases, they're not better than the one that was designed 30 years ago that doesn't do a lot, but has at least a functional hook. They were following one woman through the article who had gotten one of these new ones, but it actually wasn't any better and she ended up switching back to the old one because she could get it to do the things that got her through the day and – [overtalk] REIN: Made with titanium. [laughter] JOHN: And you can clearly see that probably the people that are designing these probably weren't working with people bringing that feedback into the process enough and it was designed for rather than designed by. MICHELE: Absolutely. So Liz Jackson coined the phrase “Disability Dongle.” That's another one that comes up. The prosthetic, the exoskeleton, absolutely. The thing that non-disabled people look at and awe and look at what technology is doing, disabled people are over in the corner going, “That ain't going to help us.” [laughs] If you had asked, we would have told you we don't need that. I think we've also reached a point where we're at the harder stuff and no one's willing to tackle, I don't think always the harder stuff. So for instance, going back to blind navigation, one of the things that makes navigating difficult as a blind person—and I learned this because I talked and worked with like 80 blind people. [laughs] So one of the conclusions that came to with that infrastructure disables blind navigation, you don't need a smart – a lot of people espouse a smart cane. Well, they had this white cane, but it needs an infrared and it needs buzzers and it needs – okay, you're going to give people carpal tunnel. The battery on that is going to die. It's not going to be reliable. And in the meantime, the thing you could have done is educate people on putting stuff at head level. So the way that we design our street signs, for instance, we do everything very car minded. We do a lot of things for cars and we forget people also have to walk and so you put obstacles, or you can educate people about trimming your trees, for instance so people aren't running into them, or how they park their cars so that they're not in the way. Some of it is also just not a technology solution. It may be more an environmental and human education solution, but you can't tell people, who have signed up to work in technology, that they must find a technology solution. So they end up solutioning amongst themselves in ways that actually aren't helpful, but they make themselves, like you said, feel better and they promote within themselves. It's difficult to get people to undo that. JOHN: Yeah, it strikes me like you were talking about the wheelchairs that can go ramps, the exoskeletons, and there are certainly use cases for those sorts of things. But I think the distinction there is those are a solution to make the disabled people more abled rather than making the world more accessible. Like what they need is lower countertop so that in the wheelchair, they can still cook. That's what they need. Not the ability to walk upstairs, or have like you said, this awe-inspiring exoskeleton that just draws more attention to them and probably doesn't even solve most of the problems. MICHELE: I'm just going to say amen. [laughs] That is it. That is the thing we need people to get. So you'll hear about the models of disability, too. Sometimes you'll hear about – you should hear about the models of disability and when people extract that and summarize that, they usually pull out two, which is the medical model, which is generally what we've been under, which is the effects of disability and how that affects the person. Therefore, these things need to happen to overcome and this sort of again, hospital, kind of what the body's doing, or what the mind is doing mindset, which is opposite of one that people often quote, which is the social model. The social model says, “No, no society, the world, my environment is disabling me. If you would just give me something more adaptive, more inclusive, I'd be good.” So a lot of examples of that, I recently read a Kia Brown's book with a book club and you'll have to insert [chuckles] the link. The Pretty One is what it's called. Kia has cerebral palsy and one of the things that was a feat for her was putting her hair in a ponytail and it made you think about scrunchies and the makeup of that. What if we just made the mechanism to have maybe a little bit more to it to grab your hair and put it in the ponytail rather than relying on the fact that you have two hands that you can do that with? So those are the differences in the mindsets of our views of disability that we need people to shift and even go sometimes again, deeper into what it is you're really doing when it comes to inclusion. Are you really being inclusive, or are you saying, “Hey person, come on to what I believe is the way of life”? JOHN: So reflections, then. MICHELE: My reflection, or takeaway would be that my hope is that we can find room for everyone. Everyone who wants to create great tech, everyone who has an idea, everyone who has a contribution. I hope that that doesn't continue to need to filter through say, a non-disabled person, or a certain status of job title. My hope is that we're starting to recognize that there's room for everyone to provide their perspective and it can be valued and it can be included in the ways that we operate at equal opportunity. So that's hopefully, my reflection and my takeaway. JOHN: All right, I can go next. I think really actually the point that that's really sitting with me is what I had just said, which dawned on me as I was saying it, as we were talking in the last minute there about how the real solutions are, like you said, infrastructural. They're changing the form of society to make the disabled person able to do what they need to do rather than bringing them up to the level of whatever was currently built, or whatever that – and even there's a weird value judgment in saying, bringing them up to the level. I'm uncomfortable saying it that way. So just changing the thinking, like you said, the social model is, I think a powerful change and thought process around this, and I'm going to keep turning that one around in my head. REIN: I think for me, I'm coming back to the idea that just like security, accessibility has to be built in throughout the process of designing and building software. You can't have a part of your software delivery life cycle where that's the only place where you think about accessibility. You can't just think about it during design, for example, and you can't just have a team of accessibility experts that you go to sometimes when you need help with accessibility. It's really everyone's job and it's everyone's job all the time. MICHELE: I love it. I'm going to change the world. [laughs] Special Guest: Dr. Michele A. Williams.

Off the top, Ama and Danita chat about the chaotic casting of the Real Housewives Ultimate Girls Trip & the significance of Will and Jada Pinkett Smith finally confirming they have an open marriage. Then, writer Keah Brown joins Ama to discuss finding solidarity in online communities, harnessing the power of social media for good, the joy of liking things, and the importance of seeing yourself represented in the media.If you liked what you heard, maybe think about rating us! You can also find all our social links by visiting our Lnk.Bio page.~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Further ReadingVicki Gunvalson implied that ‘Housewives' could die from COVID-19 vaccineIntroducing the Real Will SmithThese Sassy #DisabledAndCute Tweets Will Give You LifeDisabled creators on TikTok show the world it's time for a different kind of starHow Disabled Creators on TikTok Are Going Beyond "Inspiration Porn"BUY KEAH'S BOOKS!~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Want to support us?  Then send us a few bucks on Ko-Fi! All the money helps us with production costs and creating the podcast you hear today.Support the show (https://ko-fi.com/highlowbrowpod)Support the show (https://ko-fi.com/highlowbrowpod)Support the show

Anney and Samantha discuss disability activist Keah Brown's joyous work The Pretty One: On Life, Pop Culture, Disability and Other Reasons to Fall in Love with Me. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

Keah Brown, a journalist, screenwriter and disability rights advocate, created the viral hashtag #disabledandcute in 2017. Her works include an essay collection called The Pretty One. She joined me on Aug. 10, 2021. 

Today's reading is from the chapter titled, Freedom Of A Ponytail by award-winning writer and author, Keah Brown. When we interviewed Keah, (season three, episode 26) it was obvious that we were in the presence of greatness. Not only is Keah a phenomenal writer, but she is a formidable disruptor, advocate, and activist. I love the way she brings us into her world and allows us to understand what life is like as a Black, #DisabledAndCute person. Keah Brown is a journalist, author, and screenwriter. She is the creator of #DisabledAndCute. Keah has a B.A. in journalism from The State University of New York at Fredonia. Her work has appeared in Teen Vogue, Elle, Harper's Bazaar, Marie Claire UK, And The New York Times, among other publications. Her Debut essay collection, The Pretty One is out now. Her debut picture book, Sam's Super Seats will be out Fall 2022 via Koklia books. Add it on Goodreads. Keah loves TV and film, and she tweets, at @Keah_Maria, about cheesecake and how she should be writing. Visit: https://keahbrown.com Listen to Keah's Season 3 Episode: Keah Brown Is The Only "Pretty One" Speaking Out Against Ableism Episode 26 Special Thanks to our Sponsors: Savage X Fenty has it all! Get into it and become a new VIP. Get two bras for $29 plus 50% off everything site-wide at savagex.com/ONLYONE Best Fiends: Join us and the millions of Americans who are already playing this game. Download Best Fiends for FREE on The Apple APP store or Google Play. That's friends without the R, Best Fiends. Voyage et Cie: Voyage et Cie's curator Melanie Apple has cultivated a passion for notable moments using the sense of smell. Voyage et Cie is the ultimate luxury blend of travel, fragrance, and design. Each original fragrance is created by Melanie, 100% organic and natural which will transport you on a journey. Visit https://www.voyageetcie.com/ and enter the code: theonlyone to get your 10% off your purchase! Be sure not to miss our weekly full episodes on Tuesdays, Scott Talks on Wednesdays & Sunday Edition every Sunday by subscribing to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.  We love hearing from you in the comments on iTunes and while you're there don't forget to rate us, subscribe and share the show! All of us at The Only One In The Room wish you safety and wellness during this challenging time. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Get ready to bask in the sparkle of light that is Keah Brown! Keah is an author, actress, journalist, screenwriter and creator of the viral hashtag #DisabledAndCute. Keah has a special way of inviting you to look at an idea in a completely new way - this happened to me when I first read her book and it's changed my entire perspective! We talk about: - Embracing being Black because she saw it modeled for her in the media growing up, but that nothing existed in a similar way for people with disabilities and how her work is changing that - Joy being revolutionary. Keah shares how it was a hard-won belief that took serious dedication to examining her old stories that weren't working for her. - Belief in happy endings and how that gives us the opportunity to flourish and reach for new levels. I believe Keah will help you re-examine your long-held beliefs of how you see race, disability, and feminism. She’s done it for me! I am a Keah fan forever and I know you will be too - listen and share with your bestie!

This week, we're unlocking a Matreon episode on the Disney Channel Original Movie Cadet Kelly featuring a segment with special guest Keah Brown! (This episode contains spoilers) For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast. Follow @Keah_Maria on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

"Imagine if you were born with a disability. A disability that despite many painful surgeries, still left your right side shorter than your left and your right hand unable to make a fist. Can you picture what school or a simple trip to the mall would be like, needing to stop and rest more that anyone else your age? Keah Brown, 28 year-old best-selling author, advocate and public speaker, was born with cerebral palsy in Western, New York State. And although Keah’s mother did her best to shield her daughter from the petty cruelties of her peers, eventually one of Keah’s classmates made fun of her at school, bringing a spotlight to her differences. An act which changed the way she saw herself forever."  That excerpt was written and originally read by Laura Cathcart-Robbins and is taken from the introduction to one of my favorite episodes of a podcast that Laura hosts called THE ONLY ONE IN THE ROOM, which I had a hand in helping create and continue to serve as the executive producer. The full episode is number 26 and is called “Keah Brown Is The Only "Pretty One" Speaking Out Against Ableism”. The reason I’m sharing this with you is because I had the privilege to have a deep and candid talk with Keah Brown and the incite and depth that Keah shares is so beautiful and her focus of listening to each other to create change is powerful in its simplicity. She helps us understand that the most powerful thing you can do for yourself and for the world, is to believe in yourself and spend time becoming aware of your abilities. It then becomes that much easier to see those things in each other.  More From Keah Brown: Read The Pretty One  Finding Keah Brown: Twitter & Instagram: @keah_maria Website: www.keahbrown.com  Do you have a question you'd like to ask? We'll feature it on the show and offer answers in an upcoming episode. Just email us here: barsi@avanthausmedia.com Get the FREE companion Podcast Resource Guide now: bebold.avanthausmedia.com/podresourceguide Reserve your spot at a lower price during our pre-launch for the Begin Podcasting Intensive Group Coaching!! Spots are very limited so join while there's space! Connect with Barsi on IG: @thebarsi Visit our company website www.avanthausmedia.com for any podcasting or media creation needs. Stay positive and safe out there. I'll see you on the other side.

March is National Women's Month and we are kicking it off with three inspiring ladies.  Amy and Teresa will start off with the Mask Tree Lady, followed by the amazing story of paratriathlete Melissa Stockwell, and the ambitious Keah Brown.We would love to hear from you.  Send us your comments or even your own inspirational stories at tangentialinspiration@gmail.com.Follow us on our social media: Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/tangentialinspiration/Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Podcast/Tangential-Inspiration-110449931124565/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TangentialInsp1

Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Keah Brown put on their glass slippers and go to the ball that is Rodgers & Hammerstein's Cinderella (1997).  (This episode contains spoilers) For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast. Follow @Keah_Maria on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

If you're on Twitter, you may know Keah Brown as the creator of the hashtag #DisableAndCute and as the author of The Pretty One. But, true to Jam form, Keah and Brad didn't talk about either of those. Instead, they talked about the space for Black joy, grandmas, the absolute dumpster fire that is Twitter, and some of their favorite movie biopics. Oh, and Keah's next project, a picture book coming in 2022: Sam's Super Seats! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For all the talk of inclusivity finally being taken seriously by fashion, the industry is way behind on many fronts. It basically ignores entire sections of the market, which makes no sense from a business perspective, and let alone a social one. Adaptive fashion is both an opportunity and a necessity - as this week's brilliant guest, author Keah Brown says, disabled people love clothes too. And they're tired of having to alter things that don't work for them. Accessible, adaptive design is the future, and forward-looking brands are taking note. Our chat covers everything from Keah's New York Fashion Week debut and how her hashtag #disabledandcute went viral to writing her first screen play and the finding joy in the everyday. This is an enlightening, bright interview full of inspiration. What a treat to have Keah on the podcast. Let us know what you think. You can find Clare on Instagram and Twitter. Keah's website is here. Do you follow us at @thewardrobecrisis ? Remember, you can read our magazine at www.thewardrobecrisis.com, you can sign up for our bi-weekly newsletters there too. THANK YOU FOR LISTENING. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On this episode, Marybeth and Keah Brown, author of “The Pretty One,” unpack the creation of the hashtag #DisabledAndCute and journey of self-actualization behind it. This episode is an amazing exploration of disability pride, queerness, representation in media, disability identity, intersectionality and so much more. Wherever you are in exploring your identities, know that we believe in you and that you deserve happiness. Period. Host for this episode: Marybeth Baluyot (@merrbertt) A message from DGWL: We do our very best to ensure we are inclusive to all members of the community. Not very many podcasts consider the deaf and hard-of-hearing population, but we applaud those who do and challenge those who don’t. That said, we are looking for volunteers to help us transcribe future episodes--there are transcriptions available online for our current episodes--but we still need help! Please send us a message on our website--www.disabledgirlswholift.com--if you have transcribing experience and are interested in joining the crew! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/disabled-girls-who-lift/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/disabled-girls-who-lift/support

En este episodio de Salón de Moda, Laura Beltrán-Rubio, Jeniffer Varela Rodríguez y Camila Abisambra hablan de un tema que con poca frecuencia se discute cuando hablamos de moda: las limitaciones físicas. Cuando hablamos de lo poco inclusiva que es la moda, casi siempre lo hacemos en términos de diversidad cultural y racial. Sin embargo, la moda es igualmente problemática cuando se trata de personas con limitaciones físicas y otras situaciones de discapacidad. Hoy expandimos la discusión sobre el tema y damos algunos ejemplos para que, a partir de la moda, podamos avanzar hacia una mayor inclusión de este grupo social.Referencias: Ashley Mears, Pricing beauty: The making of a fashion model (Berkeley: University of California Press, 2011). Bernadette Banner, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSHtaUm-FjUps090S7crO4Q. COCEMFE, Guía de lenguaje inclusivo: Pautas para el uso de un lenguaje correcto, respetuoso y consensuado para referirse a las personas con discapacidad física y orgánica y comunicar de manera no sexista (2017), https://www.cocemfe.es/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/20181010_COCEMFE_Lenguaje_inclusivo.pdf. Donna Haraway, “A Cyborg Manifesto: Science, Technology, and Socialist Feminism in the Late-Twentieth Century,” en Simians, Cyborgs and Women: The Reinvention of Nature (Nueva York: Routledge, 1991), 149–181. Keah Brown, “Disabled People Love Clothes Too,” The New York Times, 26 de julio de 2020, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/26/style/functional-fashion.html. Encuéntranos en: http://culturasdemoda.com/ | http://www.modadospuntocero.com/ Instagram: @moda2_0 @culturasdemoda @camila_abisambra @jenvrod @laurabelru @sandramgr @mezuba Twitter: @moda2_0 @CulturasDeModa @JenVRod @sandramgr90 @laurabelru @mezuba Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/culturasdemoda/ | https://www.facebook.com/BlogModa2.0/ #SalonDeModa Agradecemos a Fair Cardinals (@faircardinals) por la música, a Jhon Jairo Varela Rodríguez por el diseño gráfico y a Maca Rubio por la edición del audio.

This week our guest is Rebekah Taussig, author of Sitting Pretty: The View from My Ordinary Resilient Disabled Body. In this episode, we discuss her writing process, and:Being easy on yourselfGiving yourself space to make a messAnd moreIf you’re a new listener to Fierce Womxn Writing, I would love to hear from you. Please visit my Contact Page and tell me about your writing challenges.Follow this WriterVisit her Instagram, and WebsiteOrder her book, Sitting Pretty: The View from My Ordinary Resilient Disabled BodyFollow the PodcastVisit the podcast’s WebsiteFollow the HostSlide into Sara Gallagher’s DM’s on InstagramFollow our PartnersLearn more about The Feminist Press, which lifts up insurgent and marginalized voices from around the world to build a more just futureBecome an AdvertiserUse my Contact Page or hit me up on InstaThis Week’s Writing PromptEach week the featured author offers a writing prompt for you to use at home. I suggest setting a timer for 6 or 8 minutes, putting the writing prompt at the top of your page, and free writing whatever comes to mind. Remember, the important part is keeping your pen moving. You can always edit later. Right now we just want to write something new and see what happens.This week’s writing prompt is: Write about one crystal clear moment when you were made very aware of your sense of being inside of or outside of this designated circle of "women."Explore Womxn AuthorsIn this episode, the author recommended these womxn writers:Keah Brown, author of The Pretty OneAlice Wong, editor of Disability Visibility: First-Person Stories from the Twenty-First CenturyErin Clark, author of If you really love me, throw me off the mountain: a memoirEnsure the Podcast ContinuesLove what you’re hearing? Show your appreciation and become a Supporter with a monthly contribution.Check Out More Womxn AuthorsEpisode 38: Maisy Card - Author of These Ghosts are FamilyEpisode 37: Christina Hammonds Reed - Author of The Black KidsEpisode 36: Melissa Faliveno - Author of TomboylandEpisode 35: Chet’la Sebree - Author of MistressSupport the show (https://fiercewomxnwriting.com/support)

Nicole and Matthew celebrate the 30th anniversary of the passing of the Americans with Disabilities Act. Joining is special guest Keah Brown, a disability rights activist and journalist, creator of the hashtag #DisabledAndCute, and author of the upcoming Sam’s Super Seats. This episode is sponsored by TBR, Book Riot’s subscription service offering reading recommendations personalized to your reading life, War Stories by Gordon Korman from Scholastic, and Book Riot Insiders, the digital hangout spot for the Book Riot community. To get even more kidlit news and recommendations, sign up for our The Kids Are All Right newsletter! Relevant Links ADA 30 Years – Americans with Disabilities Act #ADA30 AAPD celebrates ADA30 – The American Association of People with Disabilities “A.D.A. Now!” Throughline podcast episode Keah Brown (special guest) Books Discussed on the Show: Picture Books Magnificent Homespun Brown: A Celebration by Samara Cole Doyon; illustrated by Kaylani Juanita My Three Best Friends and Me, Zulay by Cari Best; illustrated by Vanessa Brantley-Newton Middle Grade A Snicker of Magic by Natalie Lloyd  Song for a Whale by Lynne Kelly El Deafo by Cece Bell Nonfiction I Am Not a Label: 34 disabled artists, thinkers, athletes and activists from past and presentby Cerrie Burnell; illustrated by Lauren Mark Baldo Not So Different: What You Really Want to Ask About Having a Disability by Shane Burcaw; illustrated by Matt Carr All the Way to the Top: How One Girl’s Fight for Americans with Disabilities Changed Everythingby Annette Bay Pimentel, illustrated by Nabi Ali Closing Note: Let us know what books or topics you’ve been sharing this week, or if you have a suggestion or book recommendation for an upcoming episode. Find us on email (kidlitthesedays@bookriot.com) or Twitter (@MatthewWinner and @ittybittyny).

Keah Brown is a smart, funny woman with an affinity for pop culture. She’s got a lot to offer – but throughout her life, so many people only see her as someone with cerebral palsy. The journalist and creator of #DisabledandCute joins guest host Courtney Collins to talk about how she moved beyond self-pity to become an advocate for people with disabilities. Her new book is called “The Pretty One: On Life, Pop Culture, Disability, and Other Reasons to Fall in Love with Me.”

This week, Jen + Lillian chat with special guest Keah Brown--author, screenwriter, and fairy godmother of hashtag #disabledandcute. Keah's not here for a pity party--she IS the party! We dish on media's problematic obsession with disability sob stories, grand gestures for love, and the terrible addiction that is 90 Day Fiance. -- Follow Keah, and order her book, THE PRETTY ONE, here! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/allthefucks/message

BOOKS MENTIONED:“The Vanishing Half” by Brit Bennett https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51791252-the-vanishing-half?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=p1HbCHSvfR&rank=1“Life of the Party” by Olivia Gatwoodhttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43124132-life-of-the-party?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=kBAPfJr193&rank=1“Ode to the Woman on Long Island” Videohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqpip0H1QTE “The Pretty One” by Keah Brown https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39297013-the-pretty-one?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=lXVGRH7fX7&rank=1“The Guest List” by Lucy Foleyhttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51933429-the-guest-list?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=PaXMi8DbHP&rank=1“Parakeet” by Marie-Helene Bertinohttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51542251-parakeet?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=fGhJA4v0gZ&rank=1  FOLLOW ME ON INSTAGRAM AND GOODREADS @ILIKETOREADPOD MEDIA MAVEN BLOG: https://rpolansky77.wixsite.com/website

Join Bridget as she talks to writer and digital activist Keah Brown who created a hashtag that celebrates people with disabilities. #DisabledAndCute Each and every Tuesday catch a new episode of There Are No Girls On the Internet!

This week, AWM Program Director Allison Sansone talks with writer and disabled rights advocate Keah Brown about her essay collection The Pretty One. We hope you enjoy entering the mind of a writer. Listen to more episodes here. EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS “What I want so badly is disabled characters who aren't plot devices for somebody else. [...]

This week, AWM Program Director Allison Sansone talks with writer and disabled rights advocate Keah Brown about her essay collection The Pretty One. We hope you enjoy entering the mind of a writer. Listen to more episodes here. EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS “What I want so badly is disabled characters who aren't plot devices for somebody else. [...]

SMA News Today’s multimedia associate, Price Wooldridge, discusses how too little is known about the care needs of adults with Spinal Muscular Atrophy. Forums Director Kevin Schaefer talks about the 2019 memoir “The Pretty One,” written by disability advocate Keah Brown. Are you interested in learning more about spinal muscular atrophy? If so, please visit https://smanewstoday.com/

Loving ourselves when the world tells us to hate so many parts of ourselves is a radical act. In this episode, Reshma sits down with writer and disability advocate Keah Brown to discuss her journey to falling in love with herself. Keah, author of The Pretty One: On Life, Pop Culture, Disability, and Other Reasons to Fall in Love with Me, opens up about creating the #DisabledAndCute hashtag, learning to love parts of herself through pop culture, and being a bi icon. The Pretty One: https://keahbrown.com/pretty-one/ Read More of Keah's work: https://keahbrown.com/ Keah's Twitter: https://bit.ly/2yTfpOf Keah's Instagram: https://bit.ly/2AwMe44 --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/bravenotperfect/message

Amanda and Jenn discuss books about disabled heroines, high fantasy, and a bunch of murdery reads in this week’s episode of Get Booked. This episode is sponsored by Lit Stitch: 25 Cross-Stitch Patterns for Book Lovers, made by Book Riot and Abrams, TBR, Book Riot’s subscription service offering Tailored Book Recommendations, and Custom House Books, publisher of Catherine House by Elisabeth Thomas. Subscribe to the podcast via RSS, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Stitcher. Feedback Evvie Drake Starts Over by Linda Holmes (rec’d by Suzanne) Lucy Sullivan is Getting Married by Marion Keyes and Kate Bowler’s book Everything Happens for a Reason and Other Lies I’ve Loved (rec’d by Kristi) Books Discussed 1. Just a note to say that I’ve discovered your podcast and Book Riot in general, really, as a result of quarantine, and I appreciate all of it more than you know. I listen to many episodes of all the BR podcasts each day while working from home, and I’ve built a BR TBR of over 300 books! So, thanks for feeding my rediscovery of a passion and hobby that I missed dearly! One of the first Get Booked recs that I bought, read, and loved was Little & Lion by Brandy Colbert. I could relate to it so much! I have cerebral palsy, and my twin has always seen a need to be maternal toward me, leaving me longing for a true sister relationship rather than feeling like I have multiple mothers and no sisters. The book really helped me to understand that I’m not alone in having a maternalistic sibling, but it also gave me glimpses into a true sibling relationship. Our birthday is in mid-June, and I’d love to gift my sister books like L&L but also books in which the sibling with a disability is a hero/heroine as opposed to the non disabled ones, just as a way to start some dialogue between us! Thanks so much! -Erin 2. I need help finding a book for my mom. She has been in a reading slump for a while and it sucks cause she is my reading buddy and I want her to keep reading with me! She is very picky in what she wants to read. She likes to read heavy adult fantasy (it can be ya) books that have kingdoms, dragons, creatures, and elves (she loves elves). She does prefer for it to have a female leading character that is powerful. Not a lot of sex or vivid description of sex scenes would be preferred. She loved the Throne of Glass series by Sarah J Maas and really any other book by her. She did not like The Hobbit or lord of the rings but she did like The Inheritance  Cycle series by Christopher Paolini. Thank u and please help me cause I miss my reading buddy . – Madison Terry 3. Hello!  Looking for some fantastic audiobook recommendations as I have a few credits expiring this month!  As a school librarian, I read all over the place both genre- and age- wise.  Just looking for books that are particularly best when consumed in audio format! -Rachael 4. Hi I am 13 and looking for a book about witches. I want a book female lead where she is a badass. I would like some sort of romantic arc. Some of my favorite tropes are enemies to friends to lovers or friends to lovers. I also really like books where the ex of the main character is still in the plot. Some books I have read and loved were “How to Hang a Witch” by Adriana Mather and “These Witches Won’t Burn” . I would also love a book about a mixed race kid coming to terms about their sexuality.  -Lili 5. Hi Amanda and Jen!  Thank you so much for your wonderful weekly podcast. You keep a healthy stack on my TBR with all your great recs.  I’m looking for a book (or series) to get on audiobook for my husband for Father’s Day. He has a 2.5 hour commute to work right now and needs something to help him get through it. He loves adventure high fantasy and prefers door stoppers or series for obvious reasons. He is moving through the Red Rising series now which he is loving. Tolkien is his all time favorite author. He has also enjoyed Game of Thrones,  Name of the Wind and The Expanse series . Please help me find him something else that will help keep him occupied for a couple weeks.  Thank you!  -Sarah 6. I am requesting recommendations for my partner, Branden. He is an avid outdoorsman – enjoys hunting, fishing, hiking, all things active outside. He also loves reading, mostly mystery and general fiction. He gets VERY into specific type of book – outdoorsman mysteries. His favorites are the Craig Johnson Longmire mysteries, and the Sean Stranahan mysteries by Keith McCafferty. He also likes the Jack Reacher series, less outdoorsy but fun. I’d love some other recommendations for that type of book as it’s so specific. Bonus points for the protagonist being a hunter, fisherman, etc.  I attached his Goodreads below. Also terribly sorry if you have gotten this question. I haven’t listened to all episodes so please direct me if you have!!!  -Alicia 7. I have been trying to read more science fiction. I recently read Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky and absolutely loved it. It made me really think and question what it means to be human and whether being human is even a good thing. I am trying to find a book that also tackles this subject in a clever and unique way. Bonus points if there is romance and/or steamy-ness. Bonus points if there is a strong female character that kicks butt and takes name but doesn’t necessarily have to be the main protagonist.  -Sam Books Discussed A Curse So Dark and Lonely by Bridgid Kemmerer The Pretty One by Keah Brown (tw: discussion of suicidal ideation, racism, ableism) Wicked Fox by Kat Cho The Element of Fire by Martha Wells (cw: abusive parent) The Third Rainbow Girl by Emma Copley Eisenberg (TW murder) Bluebird Bluebird by Attica Locke, narrated by JD Jackson (cw: racial slurs) Born Wicked by Jessica Spotswood Odd One Out by Nic Stone Foundryside by Robert Jackson Bennett (tw slavery) The Grace of Kings by Ken Liu   The Lost Man by Jane Harper (tw rape, domestic violence, child abuse) As Long As We Both Shall Live by JoAnn Chaney (tw: violence towards women & children, including imprisonment, rape, child abuse, domestic violence; suicide, graphic violence) Semiosis by Sue Burke Xenogenesis/Lilith’s Brood by Octavia Butler (tw: compulsion/coercion, tentacles) (Dawn #1)

We get into it with author and pop culture aficionado Keah Brown, who created #DisabledAndCute! Keah describes herself as a "bisexual, black, disabled woman," and discusses how she feels pressured to shelve some of her identities in order to advocate for just one at a time. We talk lack of disabled representation (never mind lack of disabled *queer* representation) in media, and Keah tells us why she was afraid to admit she was bi "on top of everything else." Also: the truth about the Olsen twins!

Today I chat with Too Much To Handle listener, Abby, who has recently been diagnosed with a disability. As she struggles to balance her new needs with the obstacles inherent in college and just life in general, I invite expert, Keah Brown, to help Abby learn to thrive despite her new disability and help all of us become better allies to our differently abled friends. Keah Brown is a disability rights activist, author, journalist, and writer. She is also known as the creator of the viral hashtag #DisabledAndCute. Follow Keah Brown on Twitter @Keah_Maria and check out her book! If you have a question and want to be featured on the next episode, send me a DM on Instagram @HannahCranston or email TMTHshow@gmail.com

Keah Brown is a journalist, freelance writer, and the creator of #DisabledAndCute. She is also the author of The Pretty One: On Life, Pop Culture, Disability, and Other Reasons to Fall in Love with Me.In The Pretty One, Keah muses on popular culture and media, family bonds, romantic relationships, and other universal human experiences. With wit and charm, Keah aims to shift the current culture and proper representation surrounding disability as she explores important topics in her life.The candid essays are written in a millennial voice with the passion of someone who hasn’t let her disability define her and who, instead, brings awareness to the struggles and triumphs of the disabled.Keah has spoken about the hashtag and about living with cerebral palsy in Teen Vogue, Essence.com, Catapult, Glamour, Harper’s Bazaar, and Lenny Letter among other publications. She holds a bachelor's degree in journalism from The State University of New York at Fredonia and has a love for popular culture and cheesecake. She lives in Western New York with her family.Keah’s cerebral palsy affects her right side and she is known for “smashing stigmas, empowering her community, and celebrating herself” (Teen Vogue). Keah hopes #DisabledAndCute, her work with Tommy Hilfiger, and her essay collection will expand the conversation about disability, give voice to the disabled, and inspire people from all walks-of-life. In this episode, Keah opens about living with a disability, defining herself by more than just one aspect of her life, breaking barriers and moving past negative stereotypes, the value in changing one's personal narrative and owning your story, dealing with hate and finding internal strength, practicing self-love, and more.FOLLOW KEAH:INSTA: @keah_mariaTWITTER: @keah_mariaWEBSITE: www.keahbrown.comBOOK: The Pretty OneCONTACT TARA:INSTA: @tara.mont / @trustandthriveYOUTUBE: Tara MontFACEBOOK: bit.ly/FBtaramontWEBSITE: www.tara-mont.comEMAIL: tara@tara-mont.com

Leigh (@lshfoster) and Ellie (@elliebrigida) are joined by special guest Keah Brown to talk about why Cadet Kelly Should've Been Gay. Keah Brown is a journalist and author of “The Pretty One: on Life, Pop Culture, Disability, and other reasons to fall in love with me. We talk about the love story between Carla and Kelly #justiceforcarla, Kelly's rainbow blanket as a metaphor for gayness and Captain Stone as many queer people's gay awakening. We talk about Kelly's ex Amanda, Gloria and Captain Stone's relationship and the completely irrelevant love interest that is Brad. This fairy love child, Kelly, brings her gayness with her to military school and helps the entire campus discover their own sexualities. Follow along on Twitter @lezhangoutpod and Facebook and Instagram (@lezhangoutpod). Come see us live in LA March 12th or Toronto July 10th!Click link below and head over to Amazon to purchase:"The Pretty One: On Life, Pop Culture, Disability, and Other Reasons to Fall in Love with Me" by Keah Brown.https://www.amazon.com/Pretty-One-Culture-Disability-Reasons/dp/1982100540 See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

On the season one finale, Jamie and Kendall review their years and count down the top three worst health-related stories of 2019. Then, they speak with Keah Brown, author of the book The Pretty One: On Life, Pop Culture, Disability, and Other Reasons to Fall in Love with Me, about representation and disability in film and television. Buy Keah's book! Follow her on Twitter and Instagram. **** Contact us! Want to get in touch with us? Email us at ttdontkillme@gmail.com or leave us a message at 862-201-4796. We might even play your message on a future show. Like our show? Throw us a rating. That helps other people like you, find us! Thanks so much for being our people. We hope to be yours! Follow Kendall and Jamie.

Scott Slaughter co-host and producer of The Only One In The Room usually has a short and casual, yet deep conversation with our guest but in this episode of Scott Talks, Christina Barsi ("Barsi") executive producer of The Only One In The Room takes his place while he was off enjoying Bali. Barsi has a deep and heartfelt conversation with our guest Keah Brown right after the show. If you'd like to ask a question and be featured on the Dear Laura segment you can DM us on Instagram @theonlyoneintheroom or email us via the website at www.theonlyonepod.com Also visit the website for the latest from our host Laura Cathcart Robbins like live events, appearances, featured articles and more. We love hearing from you in the comments on iTunes and while you're there don't forget to rate us, subscribe and share the show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Imagine if you were born with a disability. A disability that despite many painful surgeries, still left your right side shorter than your left and your right hand unable to make a fist. Can you picture what school or a simple trip to the mall would be like, needing to stop and rest more that anyone else your age? Keah Brown, 28 year-old best-selling author, advocate and public speaker, was born with cerebral palsy in Western, New York State. And although Keah’s mother did her best to shield her daughter from the petty cruelties of her peers, eventually one of Keah’s classmates made fun of her at school, bringing a spotlight to her differences. An act which changed the way she saw herself forever. But what if one day you decided that you were tired of waiting for others to change? Would you be tempted to create disconnect and distance even with those who loved you? Or would you shift your perspective into believing your power lives in the change you create within yourself? More From Keah Brown: Read The Pretty One https://amzn.to/3319gsi Finding Keah Brown: Twitter & Instagram: @keah_maria Website: www.keahbrown.com  If you'd like to ask a question and be featured during the Dear Laura segment you can DM us on instagram @theonlyoneintheroom or email us via the website www.theonlyonepod.com. Also visit the website for the latest from our host Laura Cathcart Robbins such as live events, appearances, featured articles and more. Don't miss our bonus after show Scott Talks, where co-host and producer Scott Slaughter (aka Hon) briefly chops it up with our guest immediately after the interview.  *If you know someone who might be feeling like they're the "Only One" be sure to share this or one of our other unique episodes with them. Also be sure to subscribe, comment and review us on iTunes!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Keah Brown is a journalist and essayist. Keah’s debut essay collection The Pretty One is an honest and thoughtful look at what it means to be black and disabled in a culture that doesn’t make space for marginalized bodies. In our conversation we talked about the importance of representation, the insidious nature of ableism, and compared notes on how each of us approaches an interview. Then for the second segment, we talked about the 24-hour news cycle. (Conversation recorded October 17, 2019.) Bonus Reading: Subscribers to the Likewise Media Patreon campaign can hear Keah read an excerpt from her book The Pretty One. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts | RadioPublic | Stitcher | Spotify | TuneIn | RSS Support: Support our Patreon | Leave a review Share: Tweet this episode | Share to Facebook Connect: Email | Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | YouTube Show Notes: Keah Brown Keah Brown - The Pretty One #DisabledAndCute Keah Brown - “Brie Larson on superheroes, success and her Hollywood sisterhood” Keah’s work at Cliché Mag Keah Brown - “Roxane Gay Wants You to See Fat People as Humans” Lyz Lenz - “How Many Personal Stories Must Women Share to Convince Others of Their Humanity?” StarTribune - “Viral photo captures power dynamic between Trump and Nancy Pelosi” Brandon Taylor - Real Life Charmed Almost Family Raising Dion Transcript

In this week's episode, Heather speaks with Keah Brown about her wonderful new book The Pretty One: On Life, Pop Culture, Disability, and Other Reasons to Fall in Love with Me, her experience dealing with social media and embracing life to its fullest. To follow Keah on social media, find her at https://twitter.com/Keah_Maria Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe!!!! If you'd like to be featured on the show, send Heather a voice note by going to https://anchor.fm/shutupandlistenwithhm --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/shutupandlistenwithhm/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/shutupandlistenwithhm/support

SMA News Today’s Director of Multichannel Content, Michael Morale, discusses a Dutch study that states there is a high probability of scoliosis surgery found for SMA types 1C, and 2. Community Development Manager Kevin Schaefer talks about a new memoir by disability rights activist Keah Brown.

In this episode, Tamsyn Muir recommends Peter Høeg and Keah Brown recommends Casey McQuiston. This episode is sponsored by The Truth Is by NoNieqa Ramos and Yale Needs Women by Anne Gardiner Perkins. You can subscribe to Recommended in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or in your podcast player of choice. The show can also be found on Stitcher. A transcript of this episode is available here. BOOKS DISCUSSED Gideon the Ninth by Tamsyn Muir Miss Smilla’s Feeling For Snow by Peter Høeg Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco The Pretty One by Keah Brown Red, White, and Royal Blue by Casey McQuiston

Hilliard, Lisa, and Chris are joined this week author Keah Brown! Check out her new book "The Pretty One: On Life, Pop Culture, Disability, and Other Reasons to Fall in Love with Me"    Direct Link: www.bit.ly/SWRR-268   Get the Rant Room T-shirt HERE!!!   If you're digging this labor of love, please consider supporting this podcast via our Patreon page. Remember support is love... and every little bit helps tremendously.   If you're already an super-fan: THANK YOU!   BTW, we're planning on a Live-Show at San Diego Comic-Con next year... but only with your support.   Burton Rascoe's quote about spouses understanding a writer’s working methods.   Lawrence of Arabia match scene   Amadeus talking backwards    Judy (trailer)    Don't forget to listen to...   Stay Free: The Story of The Clash podcast narrated by Chuck D!!! Yeaaaaah, boooyyyyyy! Writing and Entertainment podcasts we hope you enjoy!  Alex and Nick's PaperTeam podcast Pilar Alessandra's On The Page podcast     Shout out to the Micheaux Mission Podcast for keeping it on point with their discussion of Black films! 
 Connect with Us on Social Media   

Keah Brown, the journalist behind the viral #DisabledandCute, exudes pride, confidence, and humor – but that’s not always been the case.  Through years of introspect, Keah has learned to celebrate her cerebral palsy and strives to bring awareness to the struggles and triumphs of persons with disabilities. Her new book The Pretty One explores her journey to self-love and what it means for you. This candid conversation explores how to better accept, love, and empower ourselves and each other. SHOW NOTES: During her adolescence, others began calling attention to Keah's disability, leading her to believe it as negative. Keah has reformed a friendship with her non-disabled twin sister Leah after a season of resentment in high school.  Keah put the view of her self in the hands of others. "Insecurity is often the catalyst that sparks the most judgment." Every day, Keah would remind herself four things that she loved about herself allowing her to accept + love herself. #DisabledAndCute: To celebrate her self-love, Keah posted 4 photos she loved of herself on Twitter that led to a viral campaign. Oscar-winning actress Brie Larson personally requested Keah to write her Marie Claire cover story. Read the article here. "When you treat having a child with disabilities as the worst possibility in the world of having a child, that means you treat all of us adult with disabilities that we are the worst outcome." Keah sees strength as beyond physical assertions and includes survival + vulnerability. Get Keah Brown's The Pretty One here. If you enjoyed today's episode, you'll love hearing from Live Inspired Podcast guests Ben + Amy Wright, owners of Bitty & Beau’s Coffee which proudly employing people with disabilities. Listen to Ben + Amy on ep. 85 here. KEAH BROWN'S LIVE INSPIRED 7 1. What is the best book you’ve ever read? The Wedding Date by Jasmine Guillory. 2. What is a characteristic or trait that you possessed as a child that you wish you still exhibited today? Fearlessness. 3. Your house is on fire, all living things and people are out. You have the opportunity to run in and grab one item. What would it be? Photo of my grandma. 4. You are sitting on a bench overlooking a gorgeous beach. You have the opportunity to have a long conversation with anyone living or dead. Who would it be? Oprah Winfrey and ask “what it means to have an impact and influence on millions of people around the world?” 5. What is the best advice you’ve ever received? Keep going even when it feels like there is no point to it. Push through the fear and exhaustion to make sure you’re doing the things that you love and that matter to you. 6. What advice would you give your 20-year-old self? Girl, you’re going to look back on this time and laugh fondly at yourself. You think you have everything figured out. Relax and don’t be so hard on yourself. 7. It’s been said that all great people can have their lives summed up in one sentence. How do you want yours to read? Keah Brown changed the world but first, she had to change herself by choosing love in the face of kinds of things. *** Did you enjoy today's episode? Subscribe, rate + review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts! Live Inspired with John daily on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, LinkedIn, Pinterest, Instagram + get his Monday Motivation email.

Today we have an author interview with Keah Brown. Keah Brown is the creator of #DisabledAndCute.She is a published author of the memoir The Pretty One. In this episode, we chat about her writing process, what it was like to have a viral hashtag, and of course a round of book recommendations. In this episode, we chat:  How did she become a journalist and what was her journey to start her career  What inspired her to create a viral hashtag #DisabledAndCute Her journey to self-love What was her journey to be a published author The role of friendships in her life What would she tell her younger self now? Keah's Favorite Genre - Fiction and Non-fiction and within fiction she loves Romance and  YA.  BOOKS MENTIONED: Sarah Dessen  Roxanne Gay  Toni Morrison Dear Mister Henshaw by Beverly Cleary  The Truth about Forever by Sarah Dessen Freshwater by Akwaeke Emezi The Wedding Party by Jasmine Guillory Red, White and Royal Blue by Casey McQuinston The Wedding Date by Jasmine Guillory  The Proposal by Jasmine Guillory Circe by Madeline Miller The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller The Kiss Quotient by Helen Hoang CONNECT WITH KEAH BROWN Twitter Instagram Keahbrown.com SUPPORT THE WHAT TO READ NEXT PODCAST! If you’re enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Spread the love. And if you liked this episode, share it with your friends

This interview was conducted over Skype so there may be some audio variation. Author and disability activist Keah Brown (The Pretty One) openly discusses the discomfort she felt in a lack of reflections of disabled POCs in media, her thoughts on breaking in to publishing with no to low-pay opportunities, and how her book reflects more of the evolution of self and a push against ableism in existing and experiencing inherent joy. [Transcription of this episode will be available in the Episodes tab on the MiP tumblr.]

We're staying cool reading plays, essays, sci-fi, and YA. Amina talks with Keah Brown about her essay collection, The Pretty One: On Life, Pop Culture, Disability, and Other Reasons to Fall in Love with Me. Gina chats with Aminah Mae Safi about her Gilmore Girls-inspired lesbian teen romance, Tell Me How You Really Feel. Tell us what you're reading by tagging #CYGbooks.

Keah Brown is the creator of #DisabledAndCute. She is a reader, not a fighter. A lover and a writer. She has a B.A. in journalism from The State University of New York at Fredonia. Her work has appeared in Teen Vogue, ESPNW, Harper’s Bazaar, and Marie Claire UK, among other publications. Her Debut essay collection, “The Pretty One.” will be out August 6th, 2019 via Atria Books an imprint of Simon and Schuster. You can pre-order it now.  Keah loves TV, and she tweets, at @Keah_Maria, about cheesecake and how she should be writing. Follow Keah Website: https://keahbrown.com/ Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/keah_maria/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Keah_Maria   ======================  Request to Join the FREE Meredith Atwood Community & Coaching https://meredith-atwood-coaching.mn.co/ ======================  Buy Meredith’s Books: The Year of No Nonsense https://amzn.to/3su5qWp Triathlon for the Every Woman: https://amzn.to/3nOkjiH =======================   Follow Meredith Atwood & The Podcast on Social: Web: http://www.swimbikemom.com Instagram: http://instagram.com/swimbikemom   =======================  Want to Connect?  Email: same24hourspodcast@gmail.com =======================  Credits: Host & Production: Meredith Atwood Intro: Carl Stover Music Copyright 2017-2020, 2021 All Rights Reserved, Meredith Atwood, LLC

We talk with special guest Keah Brown about a Drew Barrymore classic, Never Been Kissed. We discuss the delightful joy of Drew, the tasty snack that is Michael Vartan and vent on the Gilmore Girl reboot. Rate, review, subscribe!

Shannon, Cameron, and Mel hang out with author and #DisabledandCute creator Keah Brown as they attempt to fix some of their favorite properties, like nerds do.   Music by: brandon* Logo by: Landon St. Gordon Producer: Natasha L.

That’s it: it’s our season finale—and our last episode of No You Go, ever. Really. But don’t worry, we’re not quitting the podcast game. We’re coming back January 10—with a new name that, well, we’re really feelin’. In this episode: we ask each other tough questions about our first year as podcasters—like what was great (spending time together! Learning new skills!), what was hard (uhhhhh long answer), and what we’d suggest to anyone looking to start a new jam. The highlights: How to celebrate a milestone while in the middle of some major burnout What to do when you end an interview and realize there’s no audio Why we wish we’d made friends with other podcasters a lot sooner (and what you can learn from our mistakes) Plus, we reveal our brand-new name: Strong Feelings—and talk about why we decided to rebrand the show. There’s so much great stuff we want to dig into next season on Strong Feelings, like unfucking your work life, trading #selfcare for true self love, facing our own bullshit so that we can be better feminists and activists, and what the power of female friendship can really do. OH! And we want to hear from you, too! If you have strong feelings about something, we set up a hotline for you to share them. Leave us a voicemail at (267) 225–5923. > Strength and emotions are often seen as being at odds with each other, and something that I really think we do on the show—and that I want to do on the show—is demonstrate that having feelings and talking about those feelings is strong. That’s a strong thing to do. > —Sara Thanks for listening to NYG this year, and we hope you’ll join us next year for Strong Feelings. New episodes start January 10! If you’re already subscribed to the show, no sweat—NYG will simply become Strong Feelings in your podcast app in a few days. We’ll also be moving our site over to strongfeelings.co later this week, and updating all our social, too. And while you wait for new episodes, definitely sign up for I Love That, our biweekly newsletter—next edition comes this Friday! Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Harvest, makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then  use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off  your first paid month. Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers for more. Transcript Sara Wachter-Boettcher Shout out to Harvest, our awesome sponsor once again. Harvest makes time tracking and project planning software for freelancers, tiny teams, huge corporations, and everyone in between—even me! Check them out at getharvest.com, and when you upgrade to a paid account, use code “noyougo” to get 50 percent off your first month. That’s getharvest.com, code “no you go.” [intro music plays for 12 seconds] Katel LeDû Hey everyone. I’m Katel. SWB And I’m Sara! KL And you’re listening to the season finale of No, You Go— SWB —the show about building satisfying careers and businesses, KL —getting free of toxic bullshit, SWB —and living your best feminist life at work! And speaking of best lives, Katel, welcome to our last 2018 show! How are you feeling? KL So, I seriously cannot believe that it’s been a year and I’m really excited about next season and next year…but…I have not been doing super great—just in the last week or so—and I’m feeling a lot of feelings about that. SWB Okay, so before we celebrate, [laughs] I think we have to talk about that. [KL laughs] KL Yeah, so I was really kind of struggling last week and trying to keep on top of everything and just feeling like I wasn’t doing a great job at anything. I wasn’t doing anything well or right and I was also beating myself up over it, which felt even worse. And over the weekend, I pretty much spent all day Sunday crying. SWB Oh, no! [KL laughs] I’m so sorry, Katel! [KL sighs] KL So, I mean it felt good because I’m a person who likes to cry and that actually feels good because it’s a big release for me. SWB Ughh same. I totally love to cry. [KL laughs] I do cry a lot. I definitely cry a few times a week. KL Yeah, totally. But it also felt terrible because I kept thinking about how excited I should be and how ready I should feel about wrapping up this season and heading into everything we’re doing next and next year. And honestly, I sat down to write some notes for today’s show and all I wrote was that I feel burned out and I don’t know what to do about it. And then I just was like, “okay, what is my plan here?” I do know what to do next in these moments, but I have to take those steps. So, I’ve gotta talk to my people. I got to talk to my partner and my therapist and you. And I knew I just needed to say some of those words out loud. SWB And I’m so glad that you did because I really want to know how you are and it’s A) because I care about you and I care about how you feel—I want you to feel good. And B) if things aren’t working for the show, then we have to pause and talk about it, even when that’s weird or hard. If we don’t talk about it, how are we going to have the show be meaningful and relatable and real? It’s going to start feeling fake— [2:46] KL Yeah. SWB —and obviously we don’t want that. KL No. SWB And also, something I think about a lot is that it takes a lot to put together this show—we spent a lot of time on it. And so, it’s way too much time, [KL laughs] if it’s not going to be real, right? KL Right. SWB It feels like we need to get through that kind of stuff honestly, otherwise it’s not worth it to invest this time—and obviously, I want it to be worth it. So, I’m really glad you told me. KL Yeah, and I think that is part of my plan is just connecting with people—letting people know that I’m struggling. I know that if I tell Jon, my partner, he will block for me. And I know that if I tell you, you’re going to block for me too in whatever way that is most helpful. And I know that if I go and talk to my therapist, she’s going to be there for me. She’s going to say, “that sucks” and she’s also going to give me some tools to help me get through whatever I’m dealing with. And she knows pretty much everything that’s happening with me, so she asks me to think about my optimal self. When I think about who that person is, what does she need? And to think about what that person needs and what am I missing right now? So, that really helped me just kind of think about what I’m missing and what I need to prioritize and one of those things is space and downtime. SWB Yes, I think that we all need down time, obviously, but it’s always hard to actually consistently do for yourself. And then the other thing that I was thinking about as you were talking about feeling burned out and you weren’t doing great at everything…I think something that’s been extra stressful for me the last few weeks at least—and I suspect maybe for you too—is that we have been working on all of this kind of side planning for what we want to do next year. We’re going to have a big reveal later in the show. And so I feel like I’ve been kind of carrying around a lot of that with me, both the extra work of planning for it, as well as just kind of not talking about it. And so I’m hoping that when we talk about on this show, that means we won’t have to hold on to it anymore. KL Yeah, I feel exactly the same way. It’s been very exciting [KL laughs] and very stressful. So, I can’t wait to just talk about it. SWB Before we get to that though, first we want to talk a little bit more about the year that is about to end, so things we learned—which was a lot of things personally that I learned—and also what that means for what we want to do next and where we want to grow. So, is there something that you just can’t stop thinking about that you heard a guest say this year? [5:06] KL Yeah. When I sort of started to think about this, I thought back to one of our very early episodes with Eileen Webb when she said why should only work get my best brain? And that has been stuck in my brain ever since that episode. And I think we talked about it a little bit on the show—we kind of recapped it—and I think it’s something that has come up a lot and we’ve sort of come back to a bunch of times. So, I love that something so early on has kind of carried its way through. SWB Yeah, I don’t think we’ve explicitly brought it back up, but I feel like it’s been lurking there in the back of my head. And you’re totally right, and it’s such a good concept, so thank you, Eileen. [KL laughs] KL Yeah. Alright so, Sara, what was harder than you thought it would be? SWB Oh my gosh. [KL laughs] You know what was really hard for me? Feeling like an amateur. [KL sighs] KL Yeah, I get that. SWB I don’t think I had done something that made me feel so out of my depth for a while. And that’s probably good for me! Like when I took that pottery class a couple of years ago, [KL laughs] and I was really bad at it. I think that was good for me to be bad at it and to just enjoy doing it anyway—enjoy doing it without feeling successful at it. I think that was good. But the difference is that like in this particular circumstance, I am doing something that I came in with no experience in and I’m doing it really publicly. And so it’s not like my pottery class where I’m like, “okay, I made some shitty pottery [KL laughs] and I can keep that to myself.” [SWB laughs] KL [laughing] Yeah. SWB It’s like I made some shitty pottery and now I’m going to, what? Sell it to the world at this art fair? KL Yeah. I’m going to publish it. SWB Right? And so I don’t think our podcast is shitty, don’t get me wrong. But I do think that we’re doing something that we hadn’t done before and that was tough. And I feel like over and over again, I was reminded of how I was an amateur. If you remember very early on we were interviewing Alisha Ramos, the founder of Girls Night In? KL Mhm. SWB Okay, so we hadn’t quite figured out at that time that in order to do that interview, we had multiple people signed into our recording service Zencastr that does separate tracks for each party. And that if you do that, you can’t all be in the same room because you will get your voice coming in over the airwaves, as well as the voice in the room, and it’s so disorienting. KL Yeah. SWB So, remember that Jenn was leading the interview, so we left her [KL laughs] in the office space [KL laughs] where she was recording and we moved to a couch on a different floor and huddled over a laptop— [7:38] KL Yeah. SWB —and I remember just feeling so out of it. KL Yeah, and then even you and I on that couch were sharing headphones. [laughs] So, it was just super awkward and we were like “is this right?” [laughs] SWB And so, okay, that was when we weren’t consistently figuring out where we were going to record and how we are going to record. And I remember thinking, “well, I won’t make that mistake again,” [KL laughs] which is great—okay, fine, we learned something. KL Yeah. SWB However, I felt like very week we were making new mistakes. [laughs] KL [laughing] Yes. SWB Every week we’d stumbled upon something we hadn’t done before and that was hard. And I had a hard time balancing the idea that on the one hand, you got to learn somehow and you can’t learn unless you do it, with the idea that we wanted to make something that was good enough that people would want to subscribe to it and that it would be important to people and valuable to people. KL Mhm. SWB And so how do we make something that’s as good as a podcast we love without the experience [laughing] of the podcasters we love? KL [laughing] Yeah. SWB I feel like finding that balance and finding a place where I was both putting in enough time and energy to get better at it and try to make sure that the product was good, but without beating myself up that it was not perfect—which it wasn’t, sorry everyone. KL [laughing] Yeah. SWB Okay, Katel, I have one for you. KL Okay. SWB Is there anything that you learned from a guest this year that you feel like changed the way you look at your work or the way you look at running the show? KL You know, when we talked to—just recently—the authors of New Erotica for Feminists, I really loved hearing how they collaborate and how they support each other and have each other’s backs. And we heard that they can legit break down in front of each other and they know that that’s not going to change anything. If anything, they’re going to just rally around each other and figure out how to make it work. I think when we asked them about how they work together—when you asked that question, you kind of expect them to be like, “oh, we have these stumbling blocks, we have these challenges”—and I’m sure that they did—but they were like, no, we work really well together and that’s why this is fun. And that’s why we made something we really love and we’re really proud of. So, I loved hearing such a positive story about that and I think it just made me think about and reflect on our relationship and how well we work together. And that’s made things feel good and easy, even in the face of [laughs] some of the things we didn’t feel like we were so good at. [10:01] SWB Yeah, and I think hearing from them, I really heard the trust that they had for each other. And I think that that’s valued in comedy writing that if you’re going to work with comedy writing partners, you have to be able to give each other hard feedback if the comedy is not working. And that if you’re going to collaborate on jokes, then there’s a lot of riffing off each others ideas until you figure out something good. And that bringing that spirit into their work meant that they had that collaboration because they trusted that if somebody was like, “hey, I wasn’t really meaning to go there“— like, ”eeegh, I don’t think this is working”—that that’s okay and right to say and that’s not mean or tearing other people down. It is all in the spirit of making it better. And so I like to think about that trust that they had for each other and think about, you know, the kind of trust that we need to bring to our relationship and the kind of trust that I’ve had in the best working relationships I’ve ever had. KL Okay, so I’ve got a question for you. What’s something that you think went horribly wrong? SWB Uhhh! [KL laughs] I don’t think talk about all the negative stuff, but I will. [KL laughs] Okay, so related actually to feeling amateurish—when we had recording issues, that was really tough for me. KL Yeah. SWB And we had a little bit of a spate of them this summer and fall. And what was especially tough about that is that I felt like we had hit our stride and I was like, “I thought we were past this!” [KL laughs] And then a few things happened where I was just like, “oh, no.” One of them was the time we were trying to record with Cindy Gallop. So, Cindy is a pro. She has done a lot of interviews and she’s so sure of her messages, right? And when we got her on the line to record, we were having some trouble with Zencastr. And it’s a little bit like a Google Hangout—everybody gets onto this line, but everybody is also on their own separate line for the recording. It’s pretty cool. Except that the VoIP—so like the internet connection—screwed up like three different times and we had to stop the recording and restart it, which I felt so silly about, and then eventually we actually switched to using my conference line to record, [KL laughs] which was like a whole, “okay, now we’re going to need you to do this instead.” And, of course, that has some other issues with it like you can’t record on separate tracks, so voices get on top of each other. Anyway, through all of this, Cindy was a pro, but I remember just feeling like, “she must think we are a mess.” [KL laughs] It was kind of traumatic! [12:17] KL I know. It felt very dire in the moment [laughs] because we were just like, “oh my gosh, are we gonna get through this?” [laughs] SWB I know. And I felt so out of control— KL Yeah. SWB And that’s one of the the things that’s hard about when you have a technical issue is that it makes you feel out of control and I of course hate that. KL And it eats up time, which just feels like it adds to that pressure. SWB Yeah! And especially because I really value the time that our guests give us— KL Yeah. SWB —and I don’t want to go over the amount of time we’ve blocked. We try to be careful about blocking enough time. I think we learned a little bit about that early on. But I feel nervous as soon as we start having problems that are making us eat into that hour that they’ve given to spend with us. KL Yeah. SWB And then remember after? Okay after Cindy— KL Ughh. Yeah. SWB —then, if you remember, we had Keah Brown on the show, who was completely wonderful— KL Amazing. SWB —but what you don’t know if you weren’t here for the recording, [both laughs] is that when we first tried to record with her, she was having all of these mic connection issues or Zencastr wasn’t identifying her mic or whatever. It went round and round, we spent a long time on it, and she was so great through all of it. But finally it seemed like we got it worked out, Zencastr was like, “yep, we hear the mic.” When we started recording, it was showing little sound waves for her voice. And then we listen to the recording later… KL Ughhhh SWB It was nothing but static! [KL makes a horrified noise] 45 minutes of static. KL That is—that still makes me cringe. [laughs] SWB Thankfully, Keah is amazing and she was like, “let’s redo the interview.” KL Yeah… SWB And so we just redid it and, of course, she was awesome again. She might have been even better the second time. KL I know. SWB So I try not to think about what little gems she happened to say the first time that we are missing now because the interview is great and she’s great. But those things are a really good way to erode your confidence. And I started looking into more of this, the deeper we got in. The only real way to a 100 percent prevent this stuff it seems is if you’re booking studio space and everybody’s going into a studio. And sadly we’re not quite there yet. And also you need to have guests who are willing to take that extra time to go into a studio— KL Yeah. [14:18] SWB —which is also, you know, kind of a lot of burden for them. And so we’ve talked to a few people about what they do and there’s lots of different things that people have suggested. We’ve heard from people who actually mail their guests high-quality mics and then expect them to mail them back and hopefully they usually do. We’ve talked people who use other kinds of services. But the biggest thing we heard was that we’re not alone in having these kinds of issues and that sometimes sound quality sucks. And sometimes you have flubs and it’s hard to get rid of and, you know, we’re not on a mega budget—we’re not Serial—[KL laughs] we’re doing what we can here I think something that I’ve realized is that when you have a tech issue with a guest, it can kind of go one of two ways. Either it can be really alienating for the guest where they’re like, “what’s going on” or it feels like they’re having their time wasted, or it can be a way to kind of take the wall down and be like, “oh, we’re all in this together,” you know? KL Yeah, exactly. You can kind of build up a little bit of a rapport because you’re like “uhhh this is terrible but we’re gonna we’re gonna figure it out.” SWB Yeah. And so, you know, some of that depends on the guest, but I’m thinking about what can I do when there is a tech issue to create more of that space for it to be something that we get through together and not something that makes them feel alienated. So, I’m hopefully going to get better at that and not feel so fucking awkward [both laughs] whenever there’s a tech issue. KL [laughing] Yeah. SWB So, Katel, I do have another question for you. KL All right, hit me. SWB What’s something that was really surprising to you about doing the show? KL Well, I think back to the very first few episodes that we did when we were still figuring out how we were going to have the show produced. And we decided okay, we’re going to we’re going to work with someone to do that and also get transcriptions done. But you and I spent some time doing the transcriptions at first. SWB Super fun. [KL laughs] KL Super, super fun! SWB Much love to people who do transcription regularly. KL Absolutely. And I just remember thinking this is really uncomfortable for me to listen to my own voice this much and I thought like, “this is either going to make me feel really anxious about moving forward and kind of getting over some of my own hang ups I have about listening to my own voice or it’s going to be really good.” And what I found is that it didn’t take me very long to get used to hearing my own voice and I feel really good about that. Now I think just something about knowing that I was going to have to listen to my voice made me think, “this is my voice and that’s what it sounds like and all I can do—and all I want to do—is get better at telling stories and articulating the things I want to say.” And, I mean, the other hard part of that was how hard it is to articulate some of the things that I want to say and some of the stories that I want to tell. So, I think just having it recorded added a little bit of pressure there. So, it was surprising. [17:14] SWB Listening to your own voice is tough— KL [laughing] Yeah. SWB —but I like your voice. KL Well, I like yours. [laughs] SWB Thank you. I feel totally numb to it now because I’ve listened to it so much. KL Yeah. SWB So I’m just like, “literally whatever.” KL Yeah. SWB Watching myself on video, I still find more challenging. KL [laughing] Yeah. SWB I’ve done it. I recommend it for anybody who wants to get over some of their self shame issues. Once you can make yourself numb-er to that [KL laughs] I feel like a lot of stuff gets better, but it’s not easy. KL Yeah. Alright. So, even though we didn’t always feel like pros along the way, we did learn a lot of stuff. What advice would you give to someone trying to start a podcast? SWB Find a community. KL Mhmm. SWB That is something that I don’t think we thought enough about or did enough for until later in the game than I want to admit. I think we got pretty heads down working on the show. And also, you know, I definitely felt like I had a strong community in some of the other parts of my professional life. I had all these women that I would turn to who worked in my field, but it didn’t occur to me that I didn’t really have other people to turn to who did podcasting and who wanted to talk about that. It wasn’t until we went to Werk It that I felt like I sort of saw what I was missing, [laughs] which was this community of women podcasters who were sharing ideas and sharing stories and experiences and were really generous with each other. And [laughing] that was 11 months in. KL [laughing] Yeah. Well. [SWB laughs] SWB So, we’re still building on that whole community thing. So, if you are starting to think about doing something—a podcast or any kind of side thing—I would say definitely find some of that community earlier than we did because I really think that that kind of support would have been really valuable to us. And it’s going to be valuable now. I know that we are following up on so many conversations from people we met there and already it feels really different. KL Mhm. SWB And I think particularly because podcasting is pretty male-dominated still. KL Yeah. SWB And so, I mean I listen to podcasts I have men on them. [laughs] I enjoy certain men in my life, but I feel like being a woman in podcasting, some of the stakes are different, some of my interests are different, and there’s also just not enough of us, and so finding that community I think has been hugely valuable. So, whatever it is that you want to do—it doesn’t matter if it’s podcasting or not—I think don’t skimp on finding community is definitely advice that I will be taking in the future and you may like to. [19:34] KL Yeah. I think that’s great advice. SWB What about you? Do you have any advice? KL I think give yourself a little room to stumble and know that that happens and it’s okay and you might have to [laughs] redo something here and there. Also just tapping into your networks and not forgetting that those folks are there and that the people who support you are going to support you in this new thing. You don’t get support unless you ask for it and tell people what you’re doing. SWB Yes, definitely. I think talking more with people about what we’re doing is so important and it’s definitely what I was really getting out of that whole community thing too. KL Yeah. SWB Okay, so last question. What do you most want to improve next year? KL So, I definitely want to develop the way that I tell stories and just how I share the things that I want to share. And I want to chip away at my fear of public speaking and this has been like such a huge step in that direction. And I know that I’m not in front of a crowd, but you know what I’m saying. And you have certainly helped me to do that. I think I loved doing our live event, so I would love to do more of that, and just do this a little bit more in front of people and just develop—develop the show a little bit more. SWB So, I think that really dovetails with what I want to improve next year— KL Yeah? SWB —because I also want to do more joining of groups and attending events and doing live shows. And I think part of it for me is even evolving how I think about the show and sort of where it sits in my life. So, when we started this I kind of thought it would be like, “oh it’s a side thing, it’s going to take me a few hours a week.” And I mean, maybe I thought it was going to be more than a few hours a week, but I very much thought of it as something that was kind of a smaller thing over here. What I’ve realized over the course of this year is a couple things. One is that it takes a lot of time to do a good job. It takes a lot of time to grow and evolve. It takes a lot of time to work on the stuff that’s hard like marketing and promoting it or finding sponsors. All of that stuff is time consuming. And I’ve also really love doing the show. KL Yeah. SWB And so I think I need to be honest about like, “okay, this is going to be a substantial part of my life and this is not some little side gig, but it is actually a meaningful place in my professional world and it deserves care and feeding and nurturing.” Also though, it maybe needs to make more money, so I can get more time. [both laugh] [21:52] KL I was gonna say, “aww, I love that, that’s so…thats so beautiful”— [laughs] SWB [laughing] It was so beautiful until I said it needs to make more money? [laughs] KL No, no. That is also beautiful, I agree! [laughs] SWB Well, I am so hyped to be getting into next year and I cannot wait to tell everybody what next year is going to look like! [music fades in, plays for five seconds, and fades out] Career Talk with Shopify SWB Hey, it’s Sara ducking in for a quick break to talk about careers with our friends at Shopify. This week, they want us to tell you all about a couple job they’re super excited about. So, the first one is being the UX Lead for their payments and balanced team. Okay, so what that means is that you would be leading a team of researchers, designers, front-end developers, and content strategists. And what you would be doing is trying to help make financial information simpler and more understandable for Shopify’s customers, so that entrepreneurs around the world aren’t bowled over by confusing jargon and they can actually, you know, understand how their money looks. Oh, and it’s based in Montreal, which is just lovely. And then the other job Shopify is really, really hoping to find some amazing candidates for is based in Ottawa, which I actually got to visit a year or two ago for the first time and it’s so pretty there. I even took a run around some river paths and ended up crossing from Ontario into Quebec on my jog, which is something you could do everyday if you live there. But about the job, okay. So, this is another UX Lead position and this time it’s for Shopify Home, which is the most prominent artificial intelligence product at Shopify. And so in this role, you’d be responsible for actually redesigning that, which seems like a pretty big deal. But you wouldn’t be doing it alone. You’d be working with peers in product management, engineering, and data science and you’d be working together to figure out strategy. And then you’d be leading a team. That team would have product designers, content strategists, and researchers on it to help bring that all to life. So, that’s it! Two amazing new roles open right now at Shopify. Get all the details on these and over a hundred other open positions at shopify.com/careers. That’s shopify.com/careers. [music fades in, plays for five seconds, and fades out] [23:49] Welcome to… Strong Feelings! SWB So, it is time! It’s time for the big news part of the show. This is not just the season finale of No, You Go. This is the last No, You Go show ever. KL Nooo! SWB Okay, don’t freak out because you actually know what’s happening. [both laugh] Okay, we are coming back in January, we are just switching things up a little bit when we do. So, as we talked about last week in our episode, our third co-host, Jenn, decided to leave the show. And after that happened, me and Katel were really unsure what we were going to do. And then we happened to be on this long weird car trip one day—if you read the newsletter, you may remember this. Katel had to be in court to support someone who was filing a protective order. And so the court date was 9am, two states away and I’d literally had knee surgery [KL laughs] four days before…this is a terrible math problem! KL [laughing] Yeah. SWB 9am, two states away, four days of knee surgery. [both laugh] So, I was like, Katel, you cannot drive this five hour round trip drive to go do this horrible task alone. [KL laughs] You just cannot do that. KL Yeah. Oh my gosh, we had to leave so early, I couldn’t even pick us up fancy coffee—I had to make it and bring it. But you were such a goddamn trooper and you coming with me made that really long day just so much more bearable. And something I think a lot about is that you are someone in my life who shows up. SWB I do try to be somebody who shows up. [KL laughs] That’s definitely something that’s important to me and I think a lot about how powerful it is to show up for someone else when they really need it. And sometimes when they’re not even asking for it and then they realize later that it really helped them. And so I’m really glad that I did because I will say that on the way back from that trip—we’d gone to court and this whole thing and there was just so much emotional exhaustion in the car on the way back. KL Yeah. SWB And there was just so much going on. And I was really glad I was there because we could kind of decompress and you could process stuff out loud. We could talk about it. But also it was like the eighth hour [KL laughs] of the stressful fucking day that started at 5:30 in the morning. And so one of the things that came out of that totally exhausted state was, maybe we should change the name of the show and let No, You Go be something we did with Jenn and sort of have a fresh start with just us. KL Yeah, totally. I remember sort of starting that conversation by asking, “okay, what if we change the name? What what could it be? What direction would we even go in?” SWB Yeah, that was really helpful for me because at first I was actually a little nervous about changing the name because it felt like, “oh my god, that’s so much work,” or are we just creating more problems for ourselves? KL [laughing] Right. SWB But when you were like, “well, what if?” it allowed me to think about ideas without feeling like this was something we had to do or feeling like there was pressure. KL Right, exactly. And I definitely hadn’t considered it that much until then and then when we were in the car together, we thought, okay, let’s spend some some of this ride home brainstorming and if we come up with something that we love, we’ll figure out what to do next with it. SWB So, we did come up with something that we love, but before we tell you what that is, Katel, do you remember any of the names that we came up with that we did not go with? [26:54] KL Oh my gosh, I don’t! SWB Well, you were driving. KL [laughing] Yeah exactly! SWB Its okay, I have some notes. Let me let me share some notes with you. KL [laughing] Oh gosh, oh gosh. SWB So, the first one. Definitely a pass…which was, “In It Together.” [KL laughs] I mean…yeah! KL I mean yes, accurate! SWB But it’s a little too on the nose. KL [laughing] Yes. SWB I have no actual recollection of talking about this, [KL laughs] I was a little surprised to see this in my notes. KL [laughing] Oh gosh. SWB It must have been one of those things we wrote down going like, “this is bad.” KL Yeah. SWB “Talk It Out.” KL Oh hmm. Yeah, that’s like, you know, Saved by the Bell era. [laughs] SWB It’s a Saved by the Bell era local daytime TV show— KL [laughing] Yes. SWB —where your local celebrities get on to “Talk It Out” about the issues of the day. KL Or it’s like the Saved by the Bell school radio show. [both laugh] SWB Okay, pass! [both laugh] Okay, another one I don’t remember at all…“Sure Thing.” [KL laughs] KL Oh my god. SWB I don’t know! KL That sounds…problematic, I think. [both laugh] SWB Okay, there was some better stuff too. Okay, so here’s one. It wasn’t quite right, but I really loved the idea and I still love the idea because I think it’s definitely us: “Make Trouble.” KL Mmm! Yeah, I do remember that now that you say it and I liked it too. SWB Okay, and that one led to one that I actually still do kind of love. I would listen to a podcast that was named this—“Big Trouble.” KL Ooh, yeah. I like that too. SWB I mean, “Big Trouble”! I’d listen to a show called “Big Trouble.” KL Yeah, absolutely. SWB But that’s not what we’re calling the show because at some point we were in the car, we were kind of bouncing things back and forth and I said something like, “I have strong feelings about this.” And I remember just sort of pausing and being like, “wait… ‘Strong Feelings?’ [KL laughs]—is that…is that a name?” [KL laughs] KL Yes, and I think we even said it out loud over and over like a dozen times just to kind of, you know, get a feel for it. And then I feel like it clicked and I love that there was this very literal duality in the words. Like, “strong” and “feelings,” but also we have strong feelings about a lot of things. [29:02] SWB Yeah, I do. [KL laughs] I think that strength and emotions are often seen as being at odds with each other and something that I really think we do on the show—and that I want to do on the show, is demonstrate that having feelings and talking about those feelings is strong. That’s a strong thing to do. And so I feel like it was a big moment to have that click into place. And if you remember, we were still in the car and I actually pulled out my laptop—again, Katel was driving—I pulled out my laptop and I started making the shittiest little mockup of a show tile that had our faces on it and “Strong Feelings” in big, bold type and it was not at all right. It was not at all the cover art that we are going to release later this week. KL No. SWB But I remember looking at it and being like, “oh my God.” And you were like, “yes!” And so we sat on this name for a few days and we ran it by some friends and people that we trusted and we just sort of thought through how much work is it really going to be to change things. Spoiler: kind of a lot. [KL laughs] But we were so hyped about it still that here we are! Katel, we are “Strong Feelings”! KL Ahh I’m so excited. It’s so exciting to just share this with all of you. And yeah, this is awesome. And it feels like a lot is changing—or maybe that’s just us—but I’m really excited that even though we have a new name and a new look, were not changing too much about the show, it’s just evolving, like we are! And we’re still going to interview an amazing guest on each episode, we’re still fired up by our Fuck Yeahs—and mostly we’re going to be just digging in deeper on things like unfucking our work lives. And we get a lot of mail about this—even just in our listener survey we launched last week—we’ve had people ask us about how to be ambitious without beating yourself up all the time. And that is definitely part of unfucking your work life and your career, for sure. And just finding the stuff that you want, and finding joy in pursuing it, and not buying into all the really toxic bullshit out there that just gets in our way. And I think actually our January season premiere guest will get into some of that. SWB Yes! And then I also want to talk about some work stuff that’s often not in conversations for quote unquote professional women. Like, for example, sex work. You know, we had Cindy Gallop on talking about sex tech and that was great. But specifically here what I mean is talking about sex work itself, like as a job people do to earn money. I think a lot about how activists in that space are always reiterating that sex work is work, which is very simple and it’s like, “sure it’s right there in the name.” But what that means, which is: sex work is labor. People deserve to be paid for their labor. They deserve to have a safe space. They deserve not to be exploited. And that we have so much in our culture that marginalizes sex workers and that is all about sort of indicting them on a personal level, as opposed to changing the systems that make so much of that work exploitive. And so if we’re going to have a conversation about work, and we’re going to try to have a feminist conversation about work, that we definitely need to make sure that our topics include sex work. So, I want to dig into some touchy subjects like that, some things that people maybe haven’t thought enough about, and that I hope that I can learn more about. [32:10] KL Yeah, absolutely, that we haven’t thought about. Another thing that I’m really excited to dig into more, are issues for parents and families. We have someone coming up to talk about family leave policy and we definitely want to hear more from moms and parents in general about what it’s like for them since we are not…parents or families. SWB Yes. Oh, and another thing I definitely want to do—I really want to keep talking about what it means to take care of ourselves, like take care of our fragile little brains and bodies. You know, what do we do when we’re burned out? What do we do when we cry all day on Sunday? KL [laughing Yeah. SWB I feel like 2018 was a year where the kind of hashtag self-care reached a fever pitch. Self-care was getting sold to me in almost every single place I turned. KL Ughh, yeah. SWB And it was like a zillion bath bombs and face masks. And don’t get me wrong, bath bombs and face masks are fine. KL Yes. SWB They’re pleasant. Look, I’m not shaming you for enjoying a bath. Take all the baths you want. But I do think that there’s been so much emphasis on sort of productizing self-care instead of talking about, how do you actually nurture and protect and nourish yourself in a world that is constantly trying to drag you down, or tell you that you’re not enough, or that your face or your body are bad and shameful in all of the different ways? And that’s also trying to tell you that you don’t deserve safety, or you don’t deserve rights, that we’re going to put a fucking sexual assaulter on the Supreme Court? KL [sighs] Yeah. SWB You know, how do we actually take care of ourselves in the face of that? And so I want to keep talking about, what do you do to find joy and to believe that you deserve to have that joy, in this world that is so often so fucked up? That’s what I want to talk about. KL Yeah. I think that’s so important because self care should be whatever you need it to be and it shouldn’t be like, “now you’re fucking up self-care” [both laugh] because it’s being sold to you. So, okay, we have a lot we’re thinking about, but we want to hear more. So, if you have strong feelings about something we actually set up a hotline for you to share them. Leave us a voicemail at (267) 225–5923. SWB Yes, please leave us voicemails—and we’ll put it in the recording too, but if you want to have your voicemail potentially shared on the show, you can let us know. If you want it to be anonymous and never shared, that’s totally fine. But we really want to hear from you, so we hope that that will be one other avenue that you can do that. And also look for our new look out later this week. So, we’ll have a new URL—that’s strongfeelings.co. We will try to make sure all of our redirects work correctly though, so if you forget, no worries. And if you’re already subscribed to No, You Go, don’t worry about that either because the name of the show is just going to update in your listening app. So, it’ll go to “Strong Feelings” and you don’t have to do anything to make sure you keep on getting the show. But it’s going to move to “Strong Feelings,” we’re going to change everything over. And it’s pretty exciting because me and Katel did a photoshoot [KL laughs] we got a new logo and maybe that’s only exciting to us, but I think we look pretty cute. [35:10] KL Yeah, we do. SWB So, welcome to “Strong Feelings,” and thank you so much for listening this year! [music fades in, plays for five seconds, and fades out] Fuck Yeah of the Week KL All right, so something that is absolutely still sticking around is our Fuck Yeah of the Week. And I think this time we’re going to talk about what are we most proud of from this year? SWB Oh, fuck yeah. [KL laughs] All right. I want to give a fuck yeah to something that might sound a little bit mundane at first. I want to give a fuck yeah to consistency. [KL laughs] KL I love it, tell me more. SWB Okay, it sounds boring. But given that we’ve never done anything like this before, given that it’s a lot of work, given that there was a lot of churn with what’s happening in our professional lives like travel and like I had this knee surgery, given that Jenn decided to leave the show during the year—there was just a lot going on. Given all of that, we got this show out weekly, pretty consistently on the schedule we had planned to from the beginning. We are going to end the year with 38 episodes of the show. KL Wow. SWB Yeah, and that’s pretty good. We started kind of late in January and we’re only going to mid-December. So, it’s like 11 months—38 episodes. That’s— KL That’s a lot. SWB Yeah, and I’m so proud of that. I’m super proud of that. And I’m also proud of just sort of feeling like we’re starting to hit a groove. We felt that at different points and then— KL Sure. SWB —got a little destabilized here and there. But nevertheless, I feel really proud of that work, I feel really proud of the consistency, and I feel like it’s really easy to start something with a lot of enthusiasm and then to sort of peter out as you go. But I keep finding new reasons to love what we’re doing and to get excited about what we’re doing and consistently finding new ways to improve and learn and grow. [KL laughs] There’s a lot of stuff I want to keep getting better at. So, I am so proud of that! I’m proud of sticking with it and I am proud that I feel like we have lined up a 2019 that’s going to be fucking great. KL Yeah, me too. I’m very excited about sharing all of that. That makes me think of what I’m proud of, and that is how well we work together. And I know we talked about that a lot, but it’s such a huge part of why we love doing the show and why we want to make it as good as we can. And I think just like finding an even deeper friendship through this other thing that we do together has been so cool because I think there is just always a lot of opportunities to get tripped up on little things in something like this and just lose sight of what’s important. And I’m just proud of how much I’ve grown through this, and how much I’ve learned, and how much our friendship has grown. [37:48] SWB I can’t lose sight of what’s important because I can literally see from here. [KL laughs] KL I mean, we can see each other’s eyeballs, that’s pretty much it. SWB Well, fuck yeah! What a year! What an accomplishment. And fuck yeah to everybody who’s been listening— KL Yeah. SWB —honestly, you all are so rad. We sent out a listener survey last week like we talked about earlier and we’ve been getting such amazing feedback. There are definitely some places we want to improve— KL Yeah. SWB —but we’ve also been hearing so many stories of people who have found what we’ve been doing helpful and valuable to them. So, thank you, thank you, thank you for listening. KL Thank you so much. SWB Thank you for letting us know. Thank you for sharing with your friends and hopefully thank you for sticking around for Strong Feelings! KL Yeah, definitely. Well, that’s it for this very last episode of No, You Go. NYG is recorded in our home city of Philadelphia and produced by Steph from EDITAUDIO. Our theme music is by The Diaphone. We’re taking a little holiday break, but we’ll be back as Strong Feelings starting January 10th. So, definitely keep listening and you will love what we have in store. In the meantime, make sure to sign up for our newsletter, I love that. It’s an every-other-Friday treat! See you again next year! [laughs] SWB Bye! KL [laughing] Bye! [music fades in, plays alone for 32 seconds, and fades out]

How do you decide when to take a huge leap in your career? What happens when your therapist thinks leaving your cushy tech job is a terrible idea—but you do it anyway? Googler-turned-comedian Sarah Cooper joins us to talk about writing satire, redefining success, and making men mad along the way. Sarah’s latest book is called How to Be Successful Without Hurting Men’s Feelings: Non-Threatening Leadership Strategies for Women, and it’s out today (we got a preview copy, and it’s so great). She also runs The Cooper Review, a wildly popular satirical blog about business culture, and in 2016, her first book, 100 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings, was a bestseller. We love Sarah because she’s funny as hell, and also incredibly open about what it’s like to trade a career in tech for the sometimes lonely—but also wildly satisfying—world of comedy. > I have so many outlets to discover myself and who I really am, which is something that I think is just really important for a life, you know? To know you left everything on the table and you told every story that you wanted to tell and you let everyone know who you are—and you didn’t leave this world without telling everybody that. > > —Sarah Cooper, comedian and author of How to Be Successful Without Hurting Men’s Feelings She tells us about: Leaving a career at Google to perform standup and write satire all day What happens when people think your satire is serious How being a Jamaican immigrant taught her to observe people so she could fit in The pros and cons of being a “people-pleaser”—and how to let go of that when it stops serving you How keeping a “best self journal” helps her stay focused while working alone Also in this episode Sara and Katel talk about the big career choices they’ve made, and how they’ve built structures and support systems to make those careers work for them. Deets: Sara celebrates seven whole years without a traditional “jobby-job,” and thinks back on Cindy Gallop’s advice that working for yourself is the least risky thing you can do Katel tells us why she took a pay cut to run A Book Apart—and how she handles the lonely parts of working, well, alone We both definitely wear fancy blazers at all times > I remember being so excited to work with a much smaller team and fewer people… I was like, “oh my gosh, this is going to be so great, it’s going to be just a few people, it’s going to be really nimble.” And then I realized that most of the time it was really just going to be me working kind of by myself. And it was a lot harder than I expected because there was essentially no structure unless I made it, and it took me at least a good year to kind of figure out how I was going to work, how I was going to be productive, whether I even liked that way of working enough to keep doing it. > > — Katel on trading corporate life for running an indie publishing company Plus: Our friends at Harvest want to make sure you know about Graywolf Press and 826 National. Fuck yeah for rock ‘n’ roll, women musicians, mental health, and our fave live show in fooooorever: Courtney Barnett. Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers for more. Harvest, makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off your first paid month. Transcript Sara Wachter-Boettcher [Ad spot] Thanks for Harvest to being our sponsor today—and for making awesome project management and time tracking tools that I rely on to keep my business running. I think you’ll love them too. They offer all kinds of reports that help you shine a light on the health of your projects, and they make it easy to track invoices and payments. Try it free at getharvest.com, and when you sign up for a paid account, you can use the code “noyougo” to save 50% off your first month. That’s getharvest.com, offer code “noyougo.” [intro music plays for 12 seconds] SWB Hey everyone, I’m Sara! Katel LeDû And I’m Katel. SWB And you’re listening to No, You Go, the show about building satisfying careers and businesses— KL —getting free of toxic bullshit— SWB —and living your best feminist life at work. KL “How to Be Successful Without Hurting Men’s Feelings” is the title of our new favorite book, and it’s out today. It’s written by our guest, Sarah Cooper, and we are so pumped to talk with her today. Okay, along with some extremely funny, satirical advice for getting by in the workforce, Sarah gets real about why she wrote the book, and what happens when people don’t understand that it’s satire. And how she managed a massive change in her own work life, going from being a manager at Google to a full-time comedian and writer. SWB Yes, I was super interested in that, and I was hoping we could talk more about that transition piece. Because companies like Google are so designed to really keep you there in a lot of ways, right? You don’t just get fed at work, you also get dry cleaning and haircuts. KL So weird. SWB It’s super weird. [KL laughs] But they’re very—you know—once you’re in them, they can be very cushy places to be— KL Yeah. SWB —and they also oftentimes will feel like you’re doing exciting work, and you’re paid really well, and so there’s a lot of stuff that kind of keeps people there. I have a friend who recently mentioned that—you know—she’s been at Google a long time and the idea of leaving is really hard for her. So, it’s interesting to hear Sarah talk about leaving somewhere like Google to do something that was so uncertain and so risky, right? Like a career in comedy and writing? That’s such a dramatic pivot. KL Yeah, I know. It is—it’s so fascinating and I loved listening to her story. But, Sara, you’ve been working for yourself for as long as I’ve known you, but that wasn’t always the case. That hasn’t been your whole career, you made a big moving from working at a traditional—you know—jobby-job to go out on your own in 2011, right? SWB Yeah, actually October has been my seven-year working-for-myself anniversary! KL Congrats! [2:27] SWB Thank you. It has been pretty great for me. I think that it’s definitely something that has suited me. But—you know—what’s really different about it compared to somebody like Sarah is that I don’t feel like I’ve taken such massive shifts. I feel like my changes have been a little more bit by bit over time. I wasn’t in a big, fancy, fully catered office with free haircuts and massages; [KL laughs] I was working at an agency with 40 people, which means I was working a lot with clients. And so my shift from working with clients at an agency to working for myself with clients was smaller. And the kind of work was similar. But I do think that over the past seven years, I’ve made more and more of those little incremental shifts, or kind of mini-pivots or whatever you want to call them, where I do feel like at this point my work has evolved so much—both in the kinds of clients I work with, the complexity of the projects, I definitely charge more [KL laughs]—lots of—lots of good stuff. KL [laughing] Yep! SWB But also just the makeup of my days. My day is not mostly clients, it’s—maybe that’s a third of my time. And a lot of my time is spent on things like speaking at events, writing books, doing workshops and more facilitation versus sitting down and doing the work for clients. And—you know—also running this podcast, which does take a bunch of time. And maybe someday we’ll make a bunch of money. And so I feel like on the one hand, I have quote-unquote the same business I had seven years ago, and then on the other hand, on a day-to-day basis it looks really different. And my goals have changed too. That’s one of the things I think is really interesting talking to somebody like Sarah is hearing a really different perspective on leaving a traditional kind of job and moving into something else. KL Yeah, completely. And I mean to me, and I think a lot of people, the idea of going solo and leaving the perceived—you know—quote unquote safety of a traditional job, has seemed kind of scary. I mean, when you initially did that, what did that sort of first leap look like? Did you do anything specific to prepare—you know—financially, [laughs] emotionally, mentally? SWB Yeah, so—you know—I think about something Cindy Gallop said to us in her interview a couple of episodes ago where she said that in—in a lot of ways, relying on another company to take care of you is the riskiest thing you can do, and that relying on yourself, in some ways, is less risky. And I think that that was something I kind of had come to on my own back then, because I felt like the company I was at—you know—didn’t value me for the reasons that I wanted to be valued. I mean I think that they did try to value me because I was doing a lot for them and they did recognize that, but it wasn’t in the way that I wanted and it wasn’t for the kind of work I wanted necessarily. And so I felt like looking out for myself was in some ways going to be better for me. What I did, though, to prepare for leaving, I did—you know—I had some savings, which was great. At the time, one of the things that was really helpful was that my expenses were very low. My husband was in graduate school, which means that he made almost no money. He was a teaching assistant while he was in graduate school, so he had a very small stipend. So it wasn’t as if I could rely on his income, but what it did mean is that we had chosen to rent a little mini-house behind a house in a neighborhood that was affordable near the university. And so we had a low rent and we didn’t have a lot of financial commitments—we didn’t have kids, we didn’t have new cars with payments or anything like that, because we had been kind of set up to live a lifestyle that made sense for a graduate student, even though I had a real job with a substantial income. So, that made it so that the—it wasn’t that I had this huge—you know—amount of financial cushion, but it did mean that the amount of money I needed to not get evicted and to keep the lights on wasn’t that high. So, one of the things that I did was I set some goals around finances. I really wanted to—I wanted to meet or exceed the income I had been making at the agency, not just because I wanted to have the same amount of money, but also because I wanted to feel like it was a way of proving to myself and maybe to the world that what I wanted to do was a real and legitimate thing that was worth paying for, and that I didn’t have to do it on somebody else’s terms. But I also thought about, “what is the minimum amount of money that I need on a monthly basis to not have life fall apart?” And when I realized that it just wasn’t that much, I thought, you know, I can scrape that together. If things are lean here and there, I can scrape that together. And that gave me a lot of confidence, so that was helpful. The other thing that I did is I knew that the company I was leaving really relied on me and so—they were going through a time of flux also, so I knew that they could really use my help for longer. So, what I did was I proposed to them that I would contract with them for a couple of months—I think three months or so I contracted with them—and so that gave me some time to kind of wean off of having that salary. And it gave them some time to get over me leaving and to have a—you know—different plan in place. And during that time I had that consistent money coming in from them, I did more of that reaching out to people in my network. And I knew people who worked at different agencies or different companies who I had maybe worked with in the past, and so they knew that it was helpful to work with somebody like me. And none of their companies had content strategy teams at the time, and so they would often bring me in and I was like the first content strategist they’d worked with on a project [laughing]. All of them now have whole content strategy departments, so I feel like they’ve kind of gotten the memo—and I don’t want to take sole credit for that by any means, that’s something that’s sort of shifted in a lot of people’s industries in general. But I think what that was really helpful, too, was that I looked at, “who do I know who is out there working in other companies I’d like to work with who has experience and can speak to the fact that if you have somebody with this skillset working on a project, you can do much better work, you can get things done much more effectively?” [8:12] KL Yeah. That’s so smart that you did that. And just when you think about leaving something and trying something new, it’s—you know—I think you are focused on, what does that actual moment look like when I stop doing the old thing and start doing the new thing? And the smart thing is to actually do a lot of prep work before that and kind of take stock of where you’re working, who you’re working with, and figure out where those avenues can lead to, where they can develop into something for your new project and, I don’t know, I think that… you know, that’s really helpful to hear. SWB Yeah, I mean I don’t know that I was that planned about it, [laughs & KL laughs] but I definitely did try to do that. And I also—I’m trying to be, you know, pretty honest about some of the financial pieces of it. Because I talk to people who are often, you know, wanting to take a risk like this and the risks for them might look totally different. And I never want to, you know, lie about that, or make it seem like that’s not a big financial risk. I didn’t—like I said—I didn’t have this big cushion, but I did have relatively low risk at the time, and that’s not going to be true if somebody has, let’s say, small kids at home, or already has a mortgage, and all of your calculations have to look different. And I think that one of the things that I hear a lot of is this sort of idea that, “just jump in, do what you love, take the leap!” without talking about how often people who do that successfully had like—I don’t know—family money or a spouse with a high, stable income or whatever, right? All of these other things that made that possible for them. And so I just think it’s a disservice to not be honest about those things. KL Yeah, it totally is. And I’ve talked about this before—I took a pay cut when I left National Geographic to come to A Book Apart, and I wouldn’t have been able to do that if I hadn’t already been established in my career, if I hadn’t already—you know—moved up the management ladder and was making a certain salary that had allowed me to save. I was also partnered with someone who had a full-time job and who we had a little bit of a buffer, so I could do that and make a change. SWB So, what was it about that opportunity at A Book Apart that made you want it so badly you were willing to take a pay cut for it? Because working at a small company, it is riskier—you know—you said you got paid substantially less, there are not fancy offices, there are no free haircuts at A Book Apart. [10:38] KL [laughing] No, not yet. SWB What made that feel worth it for you? KL I mean, I knew it was going to be a huge opportunity and—you know—I was looking for a new challenge and that it certainly was. I knew I was going to be able to work with a whole new community of people and, you know, people doing work that I really admired and that I really wanted to be involved in. And I knew I’d be able to grow in a way that I hadn’t really been able to grow before. I was going to be able to grow my skill set, which was exciting, but also scary. SWB What do you mean? What were some of the things that you feel like you saw in that role that you were like “ooh yeah, I want to be able to do that”? KL I saw a chance to be a part of building something that was more or less kind of in its—you know—beginning phases. And that was super exciting. But there was also an opening to basically develop the role as I grew into it, and I’d never experienced that before. You know, I think I’d always gone into a job being like, “here is the list of responsibilities and this is more or less it.” It’s cut and dry. And this was an opportunity that I hadn’t had before where I was making it what it was, which was super cool. SWB So, was that ever hard though? Because I think one of the big shifts there you’re describing is going from a pretty structured environment to a really unstructured environment without, you know, having like, “here’s the boundaries of what your job is and here’s, you know, who is on your team.” And you don’t have a set of colleagues that work full-time with you, it’s like people juggling multiple kind of side gigs, and A Book Apart is often one of their side gigs. Was that hard? KL Yeah! I remember being so excited to work with a much smaller team and fewer people, because I think I was so used to working with such large teams and so many people that it felt like it was hard to really move things forward. So all of a sudden I was like, “oh my gosh, this is going to be so great, it’s going to be—you know—just a few people, it’s going to be really nimble.” And then I realized that most of the time it was really just going to be me [SWB laughs] working kind of by myself. And it was a lot harder than I expected because there was essentially no structure unless I made it, and it took me at least a good year to kind of figure out how I was going to work, how I was going to be productive, whether I even liked that way of working enough to keep doing it. And I think now it would be really hard for me to go back to a traditional office environment at least. I mean, I have a friend who has been freelancing for almost five years and they’re just realizing that it does not work for them. They need—they are realizing that they need to go to a place and do the work and then leave that place. And I very much understand that. [13:23] SWB Totally, yeah. I can relate to that feeling, but I’ve never quite sunk into it. I guess I’ve had moments where I feel like that, and then I’m like, “no, okay, I need to add some structure, I need to shift how I, you know, how I do things.” You know like people who talk about how they need to get dressed for the day or whatever before they start work? I’m not one of those people, but there are things that—you know—that I think about. I don’t do client work at nights or on the weekends. I do end up doing work at night or on the weekends, if I’m going to be honest with you. People sometimes ask me, “how do you do all the things that you do?” And I’m like, “I like to work and I don’t mind doing it in the odd hours.” But I don’t do client work then. I work on the podcast maybe. KL Right. SWB But to me, setting some of those boundaries like not doing client work and not replying to client emails late—that’s important and that’s something where I feel like it keeps it on my terms. KL Yeah, totally. It’s like you sort of—you have to have a little bit of a sense of office hours for there to be some kind of structure. Even if it’s only in your head and—because people, a lot of people don’t know that you aren’t—in a quote, unquote office every day doing that work. SWB I’m in a very fancy office at all times. [KL laughs] KL You are. SWB And I am definitely dressed up in a very fancy business outfit and I’m wearing a blazer. KL At all times. SWB At all times. KL Yeah. SWB Literally always. [KL laughs] KL I mean, I think about that idea of sort of working from wherever and at first again, how that idea was so exciting, but how it can become such a slippery slope. For example, on one hand I was able to plan and host that bachelorette weekend that we talked about a little while back because I could handle all the logistics leading up to it—you know—in and around my daily schedule. But when the weekend came, I also worked a little during that weekend because I could and I had a lot I need and want to get done. And to your point, it’s sort of like I love a lot of the work that I do and that’s—that’s okay, that’s part of my life, but I do need to remember that I want to set some boundaries. So, it’s great to have a lot of flexibility and freedom, as long as you kind of keep an eye on where the lines are. [15:30] SWB Yeah! And I let myself redraw the lines. They don’t have to be consistent all the time. But to always be thinking about “okay, I am redrawing this line right now and doing a lot of work stuff during a different—a weird time, but that might not be forever, I don’t want that being normal.” I like it though. You know, I get to do things like add a few days of vacation time when I’m taking a business trip, right? So, I go to the West Coast to go to a conference and I tack on a few days and I go see my nieces in Oregon. That’s awesome, I love being able to do that and I just have to juggle other things around it, right? I don’t have to take PTO, I don’t have to budget for it that way, I just have to juggle everything else around. I also love that I can do things like schedule appointments or run errands at like 2pm on a Tuesday and that again, I just have to be able to juggle everything else around it, which is why sometimes—you know—I do stuff in the evening that I would otherwise get done during the work day, but it means that I was able to do stuff during the work day that otherwise would be a nightmare like going to IKEA on a weekend! KL [laughing] Yes! SWB You know? And I feel like those are good tradeoffs for me, but I always want to take stock of what those things are. KL Yeah. Something Sarah mentioned was that work can be lonely. Were you lonely at first when you started this—you know—this endeavor, what you’re doing now? Or do you get lonely now ever? SWB So, I don’t tend to get lonely most of the time. Sometimes in small moments, but never in a bigger way. And I think one of the reasons for that is that I know that I’m pretty social and early on, I connected with a lot of people who were doing some of the same stuff that I did. So I remember in 2011 when I first left my job, a friend started a really small little Google group for people who were doing freelance or consultancy type work in content strategy. And it was only five or six people—eight people, I can’t remember. But that was really helpful at the beginning where I felt like “oh okay, I can chat with people who are sort of facing some of the same stuff as me or I can ask questions—what do your contracts even look like? What am I doing? What’s going on?” Very basic questions. [laughs] And that group kind of petered out—sometimes those kinds of groups peter out, but it was valuable to me in the moment. And then in 2013, I helped plan a little retreat with fifteen or twenty people running small consultancies and we came out of that and started a Slack group a little while later—I think actually a year later we turned it into a Slack group—and that’s still going and that’s—it’s a place I can bounce ideas off of, ask questions. And it’s also people I just really trust, which has been helpful. The other thing that I think has really prevented me from being lonely is that I do partner with people on projects a lot and I partner with you on a ton of stuff now, Katel. So, one thing that I’ve noticed is that I don’t work on A Book Apart and you don’t work on my client projects or come with me when I speak at conferences usually, but I feel like I have kind of a work partner where you kind of know what’s going on with my work and I know what’s going on with your work and we have enough work we’re doing together that—I don’t know—it feels like a colleague! [18:29] KL Ahhh, I love that so much! I agree, I feel the same way and it’s been such a cool thing to have developed where it’s like all of a sudden if we want to have a co-working day, we could do that. SWB Totally! Plus we get to talk to so many fucking awesome people together, which is something that I really, really love. So, why don’t we do that? KL Let’s do it. [music fades in, plays for five seconds, and fades out] Sponsor: Harvest KL [Ad spot] So, before we talk to Sarah, we’ve got to talk about something actually pretty related to her work—reading, writing, and creativity. Our friends at Harvest told us those things are super important to them, especially when it comes to making sure more diverse voices have a chance to share their ideas. So, Harvest has pledged to spend 4% of its profits each year to causes that help more people from all backgrounds read, write, and get creative. Two groups they support that you might want to check out are 826 National, which supports seven writing and tutoring centers for youth across the country, helping them write with confidence and originality. Check them out at 826national.org. And Graywolf Press, a nonprofit literary publisher that champions books from underrepresented voices. They’re at graywolfpress.org. SWB I love this so much because I think about all the incredible writers we’ve had on the show so far. Like Sarah, of course, you’re going to hear from her in just a second, or Keah Brown from last week, or Nichole Chung a few weeks ago. And then, of course, Carmen Maria Machado back in the spring—you know—her book was actually published by Graywolf Press! And I think about how—you know—the world just needs more writers like them and organizations like 826 and Graywolf are really crucial to making that happen. So I love that we’re able to spotlight them and—you know—writing and creativity are so important for everyone. So, even if you’re not going to be a capital-W writer, Harvest has noted that as a remote company with people in a lot of different time zones, they rely on written words to get things done and collaborate and that reading and writing skills make it possible for them to do that and make them successful. So, they want to support more people in gaining them and so do we. So thanks, Harvest, for caring about literacy and creativity and check out 826 National and Graywolf Press for more. [music fades in, plays for five seconds, and fades out] Interview: Sarah Cooper SWB Sarah Cooper is a comedian, writer, and self-proclaimed trash-talker based in New York City. She runs thecooperreview.com, a wildly popular satirical blog about business culture, and her first book, 100 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings, was a bestseller. Now she has a new book. It’s called How to Be Successful Without Hurting Men’s Feelings and I am laugh-crying already. Sarah, welcome to No, You Go. [21:02] Sarah Cooper Thank you so much. SWB So, Sarah, we were reading your new book—Katel and I were actually just talking about it—and we really were laugh-crying. In chapter one, already I was losing it. I was reading the section where you—you started having all these illustrations of hairstyles to avoid and let me just describe this for readers who haven’t been able to read the book yet. It’s this illustration series where it’s like okay—long, flowing hair is too sexy and then there’s the hair that’s up in a bun is too boring, there’s the hair that’s too old, and then the last two are where I just lost it. It’s the one that’s like “too black”—natural hair, right? And then “way too black,” which is braids. Okay, so the book is full of illustrations like this and activities and basically advice for women to be successful, but don’t be too successful. How did you get to this place where you decided to write a satirical book of “non-threatening leadership strategies for women”? SC Well, it started as a blog post called “9 Non-Threatening Leadership Strategies for Women” and I wrote it two years ago—and it was sort of based on my experience kind of making myself more passive and trying to be more pleasing in the office and sort of getting called out on being a little too aggressive with my opinions and seeing other women get called out on the same things. And so this idea of being threatening when, in fact, we’re actually just being direct or straightforward or saying the same thing that a man would say made me think it would—it’s kind of like the perfect thing for satire where you’re trying to tell women “this is how you be less threatening,” but really the way you were going to act in the first place was already not threatening. So, that led to that first comic, which I almost didn’t publish because I have a group of friends and family that I sort of run things by before I publish anything. And I did get the feedback that this might be construed as offensive and people might take it too seriously and I might see [laughs]—I might be seen as someone who is anti-woman for giving this advice. And so, I really worked on it to try and make it as obvious as possible that it was a joke, so the advice sort of gets more silly towards the end of the post where the very last thing is “wear a mustache so that people will think you are a man and that way you won’t even have to be less threatening.” After that, I published it and it just sort of went viral in the same way that “10 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings” went viral and really hit a nerve and people still did think that I was serious and didn’t realize that I was not actually telling people to put on a fake mustache. But I think a lot of people just sort of saw themselves in a lot of the advice. And so that was kind of the initial spark of the idea for this book and I started writing a different book actually, last year—and I wasn’t going to write this book, especially after the election. I thought that there was just a sense of hopelessness that all women sort of felt and I didn’t know if there was a way to create something that would be funny, but also kind of not dismissive of how women were feeling. And so it—it did take me a little while to figure out how I could do it and I think what happened was I started to get angry and I think—you know—women started to go from sad to pissed and I think when I became pissed I was like, “you know what? This ridiculous. We have all of these rules everyone is trying to tell us to follow, they’re contradictory and we actually can’t win because no matter what we do, it’s not good enough and it’s not right.” And I think that that was especially how I felt with Hillary Clinton’s campaign. It was like she didn’t smile too much or she smiled too much or she was “too prepared,” I think was something that someone said, which just made me so livid. I was like, “wait a second. [laughs] If you’re too prepared, that’s not good enough?” So, it just got me so frustrated and so that’s when I was like, “you know what? I can make fun of this and I can kind of do it in a way that’s funny, but also kind of speak to how frustrating a lot of these rules are and this situation is and a lot of how women are feeling in the workplace in terms of how we should present ourselves when really we just want to be ourselves without being judged for all of these little things. [25:28] SWB Yes. I mean, there is so much kind of what I would say is shitty advice for women at work that is basically giving them these pointers for how to like “hey, here are some tips to suppress how you really feel all the time and act more like a man,” right? That’s kind of what they boil down to— SC Yeah. SWB —and so it’s interesting that you had that much of a problem of people not realizing what you were doing was satire. It seems very obvious to me. SC [laughs] Well, I think some women were like, “you know what? I’’—they are actually on my side without realizing that they’re on my side. I think that’s the funniest part because they’ll be like, “you shouldn’t be telling women to do this, women should just act the way that they want to act and if men are offended, then screw them.” And I’m like, “yeah, exactly, that’s the point of what I’m trying to say, [KL & SWB laugh] thank you for pointing that out.” So it’s more people not—you know—it’s more people that are kind of on my side that just kind of don’t realize that I’m not actually telling people to act like this, I’m saying that we shouldn’t be telling people to act like this and that’s kind of a running thread throughout a lot of the stuff that I do—it’s bad advice. Don’t take my advice, do the opposite of the thing that I’m telling you to do and that’s a—a lot of what this is as well. But yeah, people still take it seriously and I’ve got to laugh sometimes at that. SWB So, I’m curious—you’ve touched on this a little bit. Do you ever find yourself feeling frustrated or getting into some awkward space where you’re trying to write comedy about actual awful things that happen to real women all the time? Does that ever sort of get you down? Or does it feel like a positive outlet for you? I guess at some level it must since you [laughing] are writing a lot of comedy about it! SC [laughs] You know what? When you take something seriously and it feels kind of sacred, you are like “I don’t want to make fun of that because I really feel strongly about that” and so it did feel like a bit of a stretch and that’s why I wasn’t going to write it at first. And then especially with the harassment chapter—that chapter almost didn’t make it in there just because I—but it had to because then I was so angry about all of these things that women have to deal with. This idea that if we get harassed by someone who is a high performer and is a really incredible contributor to the company, that somehow makes it so that they can’t do anything about it because they need that person. [laughs] It’s just this idea that companies—a lot of companies—don’t seem to care about how they’re getting to their goals, they just care that they get to their goals and so they—there’s a lot of people who kind of get trampled on in that process. And so I think that what ends up happening is I’m a little scared to make fun of something or it’s a little bit too raw to make fun of it, but then the sort of frustration makes it so that I can’t help but make fun of it because I really, really need to point this out and I really—this is just something that I really want to say about it. [28:14] SWB So, I know that a lot of your work sort of stemmed from your experience in kind of a past life working at Google for a number of years, kind of working in the tech industry. You’ve said that it has given you plenty of material, and I’m wondering if we can go back to that a bit. Can you tell us a little bit about sort of both how you got started in comedy and in tech and how the two kind of intertwined? SC Yeah, it’s kind of a messy story. I always wanted to do something with performance and theatre and acting, and I kind of did it on and off while I was working. And I found stand-up because I wanted to be a better actress, and I kind of wanted to be more myself on stage and on camera. And so I decided to just get on stage at an open mic. And I drank a lot and got very drunk and got up on stage and told this story about dating and it was—it was very nerve-racking. But then I got up there and I felt very comfortable and I realized that I really liked writing for myself and I really liked being myself more than pretending to be—a character? That’s kind of—that was something that I was doing sort of in between working for Yahoo and Google and then I continued to do stand-up while I was working at Google and I would get my coworkers to come to my shows and I started to write a little bit more about what it was like to work with them and sort of making fun of the software engineers there and they—you know—loved that. They’re some of the funniest people I’ve ever met. I didn’t really realize that there was this sort of opening for satire in the corporate world before I wrote “10 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings,” which is really based on observation from sitting in meetings and—while I was supposed to be paying attention and contributing, I was making observations about what my coworkers were doing and especially the things that people were doing to make it seem like they knew what they were talking about when really most people weren’t paying attention at all. And I just always found it fascinating that certain people were seen as the smart ones. To me, almost everything is a sort of performance. And it’s also… I’m an immigrant. I was born in Jamaica. And so I think I’ve always kind of been like, “well, what’s the thing that I can do in this situation to make it look like I can fit in here and I’m part of it?” And so I was always sort of watching. And so I think a lot of it was just I really like observing all of those things and the first time I put that together was in “10 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings” and it really just resonated with people and that’s kind of what started my writing career that—as it is right now because that took off so much that I ended up leaving Google and—and writing my first book about it. [31:02] SWB Yeah, I think from that original post my favorite tip was maybe number six, which was “ask ‘will this scale?’ no matter what.” [KL laughs] SC Yeah. SWB Because, obviously, that’s the kind of thing I’ve heard a lot and it’s the kind of thing that is just said when you don’t know what else to say. And I think that that’s something that you really pinpointed so well is the way that people will sort of come up with these so called smart, insightful questions that are really just stock questions that they use to sound like they know what they’re talking about. SC Yeah. SWB Something that I want to touch on though—that you mentioned a minute ago that I think is really interesting, is you mentioned sort of being an immigrant and moving to this country from Jamaica and feeling like that gave you more of a sense of observing what other people are doing and figuring out what is the norm here. Sounds like maybe from a young age you became really attuned to needing to code switch and sort of trained yourself to always be identifying what the code is that’s happening, so you can flip on your “okay, I’m working at Google now” script and kind of blend. Is that something you feel like is a strong piece of your experience? SC That’s funny, I’ve never thought of it as code switching, I’ve always thought of it as people pleasing. [laughs] I’ve always been a huge just people pleaser, which is part of myself that I absolutely hate and I did it with—you know—sort of my parents, I did it with my friends, and I did it at work. I did it in relationships. And it took me a long time to realize that a lot of times I was doing and saying things that I didn’t actually think or feel just because I thought that’s what was wanted or needed by other people in that situation. So yeah, I mean I think that I developed that from a very young age. I have [laughs]—I have this memory of being very young, and I couldn’t read yet, and I was sitting at a breakfast table with my dad and he was reading the paper and he got to the comics section and he slides me the comics section and he says, “read this, it’s funny, you’ll laugh.” And he didn’t realize that I couldn’t read yet. And so I didn’t want to say, “Dad, I can’t read” [laughs] so [KL & SWB laugh] I looked at the comics and I just started laughing—I just started pretending to enjoy myself so that my dad would think that I was doing what he wanted me to do. And I feel like that was my earliest memory of just being like, “oh, they think that I should do this, so I’ll do this”—you know? But it took a long time for me to step outside myself and realize I don’t have to do that. I can say and do what I feel. [33:31] SWB And so I’m curious—as you were sort of starting your career working in tech and sort of going in with that people pleaser mentality, what was that experience like for you? SC Very successful, I have to say. I joined Google and was within a few years promoted to manage the team. And I did very well there, people loved working with me, [laughs] people loved having me in their meetings. You know, I think people pleasing is—it will get you to middle management. I don’t know if it will get you to be like a VP, but definitely as a woman especially, if you’re a people pleaser, I think that it can get you pretty far. The only thing is, you’re going to get something that you might not want, which is what I had. [laughs] You know, I became a manager and I was in a lot of meetings and I think that’s when I started to realize that I wasn’t being as creative as I wanted to be, so I guess it was kind of a blessing in disguise that I came to a point where I was more passionate about writing and stand-up and all the things I was doing outside of work than I was about the things I was doing at work. But I just find it fascinating how—you know—there’s so much imitation going on in the corporate world. I mean, that’s what people are doing in terms of how they figure out “well, this is how I need to get ahead, I need to—obviously this VP is talking so passionately about this product and all these features, and so I need to talk passionately about all these products and all these features.” Now, that VP might actually be feeling those things, but then the middle manager is just sort of imitating that passion. And so, I think that that to me was a lot of the things that I was doing as well. And it’s just kind of a strange situation, because they’re like, “oh, you have to be authentic—you know—you have to be really yourself,” but then a lot of it is just a performance in a lot of ways. SWB You mentioned how much of a people pleaser you always were, but it seems like almost flipping when you started writing the satirical posts because they’re fundamentally making waves. And I’m wondering if that was ever sort of a scary decision for you to make. SC It was. I mean, even as innocuous as “10 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings” was, I was so scared to post it because I didn’t want my coworkers to think I was making fun of them, because I was making fun of them. And I didn’t know if they would read it and I would ruin some relationships. So, that was really scary, but then a crazy thing happened. It came out, everybody read it, everybody loved it, they all started asking me if they could be featured in my next posts and they do this thing in a meeting and maybe that’s another trick I could put in there. And so that was kind of the first stepping stone of like “oh, this is okay!” And I will say that comedy for me definitely is sort of a defense mechanism. I can kind of hide behind the satire of it a little bit in order to say what I really feel. I feel like this is part of my growth is to say it in a satirical funny way, and then kind of get up the courage to say what I really feel and what I really think and be really committed to that. But it is really scary to put myself out there even a little bit, and even setting up a newsletter and sending out emails, and even when I had just forty people, I felt terrified to just send out my newsletter. It was just—it took a long time, but it’s been really great. You know, I think it’s been exactly what I needed in order to become more of who I am instead of this person that I think everyone wants me to be. [37:08] SWB I’m curious too, you talked about your newsletter. We mentioned at the top of the show The Cooper Review, which is the satirical blog that you run and I’m curious how and when did that get started and how did that build its audience? SC So, I posted “10 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings” on Medium at first because I didn’t have a blog. And then when it got—it was starting to get millions of views, I was like, “wait a second, I should be getting some of that traffic,” so I created thecooperreview.com about—I want to say—a month or so, or maybe six to eight weeks after that blog post came out. And then I started using the post on Medium to sort of drive people to my website and get people to sign up for my newsletter and started to grow my audience that way. SWB And so you also mentioned a lot about feeling a lot of fear about posting it and then getting a lot of positive feedback, but did you also get negative feedback? Have you received much criticism or, you know, trolls or kind of angry folks? SC Not from my coworkers, but from—yeah, random strangers. People get very angry, especially on LinkedIn [laughs] when you think that you’re trying to tell people how to—how to look smart in meetings because they take their meetings very seriously. So, I get people saying, “well, you shouldn’t—you shouldn’t try to look smart, you should just be smart” and I’m like “okay, thank you.” [SWB laughs] Yeah, so that’s kind of funny, but then I also get—you know—I wrote a post about gaslighting, which also made it to the book as well, and I got a woman who wrote to me and said that her boss did this to her and it was very painful and—and how she usually finds my things very funny, but this was just very painful for her and she didn’t appreciate it. She didn’t think it was great for me to write this. And I was very sensitive to that, so I wrote her back and said “you know, part of the reason that I write this stuff is because I want people to be more aware of it and I think that—you know—like G.I. Joe says, “knowing is half the battle.” And so when you are aware that these things are happening, then you can do something about it, then you can say, “hey, this is what’s happening. I’m not crazy, you’re making me feel like I’m crazy.” And she wrote back and it was really nice. She was like, “yeah, that is true, that is a good point. If I had known that that was what was happening at the time, that might have helped me.” So, I have situations like that, I have, I’ve gotten some hate mail about this book. It’s not even out yet, no one can read it yet, but just the title is making people upset. A man wrote and said he would definitely not be buying my book [laughs] because it was offensive to men. It’s really, really funny actually. The subject of the email is “blatant sexism.” It says, “I won’t be buying your How to Be Successful Without Hurting Men’s Feelings. If I wrote a book called ‘How to Be Successful Without Hurting Women’s Feelings,’ no publisher would touch it and I would be lambasted for writing it in the first place, even when calling it satire. What appalls me the most is not that you wrote it, but that most men will ignore the blatant sexism, uncomfortably laugh it off, and pretend it doesn’t hurt because that is somehow more manly. I’m man enough to call you out on it, Sarah Cooper. [laughs and KL and SWB laugh loudly with her] [40:13] SWB Is it too late to get that as a back cover blurb? [all laugh] SC I know, I know. It was so perfect because I just love that—I love that “oh, most men are just going to laugh it off and just—and hide their pain” and I’m like, “welcome to our world. This is what we do all the time.” So, when I first got that, I was like, “oh my god, this is—I’m offending people, I’m offending people” and then the second I sort of shared it with a few friends, they were like, “oh my gosh, this is hysterical, you have to share this with everybody.” SWB It is quite funny and it’s also it’s like oh my gosh, you couldn’t even have the title of your book about not hurting men’s feelings out [ KL laughs] without hurting this man’s feelings. SC Exactly, exactly. SWB He’s so sensitive! You know, sometimes I just think men are too sensitive. SC I think they’re too sensitive, I think they’re too emotional. [all laugh loudly] SWB Exactly, exactly. When I read your work, I feel like it comes from a perspective that I relate to a lot and obviously all of the content about—you know—being harassed at work or being looked over for promotions, all that kind of stuff, I’m like, “okay, this really resonates for somebody who’s a woman.” But I know that you have male readers and I’m curious if you get a different kind of feedback from men who read your work? SC I think there’s just a range. I mean, I think there’s men who—god bless them—they feel like men and women should be equal and so we shouldn’t treat them differently. And it’s really hard for them to just accept the fact that yeah, we would like to be treated differently, but we haven’t been. And that’s the point. The other thing that frustrates me is that—and this happens with men and women too—it’s just like, “well, why didn’t you write a book about this?” Like this guy. “Why didn’t you write a book about women’s feelings?” It’s like there’s a specific audience and there’s a specific thing I’m trying to say and I’m sorry I couldn’t write a book for everybody, but that’s not how books work, I can’t do that. And so I think that there’s men in that camp—I think there’s men in the camp of “oh this is going to be great for my—my wife, or my girlfriend, or—you know—a friend of mine who is in the working world” and they probably don’t think that—that it will help them that much and I think that that’s fine, too. Maybe some of it will sort of—I appreciate that and I obviously it will be great that they want to share it with their female friends, but I think that the men who actually say, “I want to read this, I want to know what this perspective is like”—those are the men that just—they make me so happy. I always think about after the election; my husband is a straight white man and I was really upset after the election and he said to me, “you know, Sarah, I understand this is different for you.” And that’s all he had to say. You know, all he had to say was just appreciate the fact that this is different for me than it is for him and that’s all I want men to do is just say, “hey, this is an experience.” This is an experience that we have and these are things that we have to deal with that you don’t have to deal with and yes, we appreciate that there are things you deal with that we don’t have to, but can we just talk about us just one second? So, I think those are the men that I’m hoping to get to more of and I definitely see that. I have a great—a good deal of men who really support me and really support my work and are not even remotely offended by this title and actually see how they can learn something from it too. [43:25] KL Yeah. It’s so funny hearing you say all of this and then at the end of the day, it’s still—just to underscore it—we’re really not—it’s not a lot that [laughing] men would have to do. It’s like just paying attention— SC Right. KL —and being a little more self aware and—you know—leaving that channel open. Thinking a little bit more about your career and your work as a comedian and an author, was it scary to leave the perks and stability of a giant company like Google? Is there anything that you miss from that? SC It was terrifying and it took me a long time [laughs nervously] and no—everybody was pretty sure that I was making a mistake. Even my therapist was like, “you know, you should stay there at Google.” [laughs] My family, my fiancé at the time—now husband. Because the thing is, I met my husband at work and he’d see me at work and I was happy, you know? I really liked those people and I really enjoyed being there, and Google is such a comfortable place to be. Everything you could possibly want is there. I probably took advantage of the nap pods too many times, [KL & SWB laugh] but it was great—it was great. And so the thing that I tell you I would miss the most is having a place to go and be comfortable and being around people that I just really respect and admire and make me laugh. I miss that very much because I didn’t realize how lonely writing was going to be, I didn’t realize how much I would enjoy sometimes being alone, but then really, really, really need to talk to people and—so now it just takes an extra effort that I didn’t have to do before, to talk to people and go outside and go do things and in order to get that stimulation and find that new material and all of that stuff. So, it took me a while and I was panicking for at least the first six months after I left, but I realized that it was a bigger risk not to leave than it was to stay because I could always go back. And once I told my boss I was leaving and he said I could always come back if I wanted to, that made me feel like, “okay, I can do this.” KL That’s great. I’m glad that you had that and I completely get that apprehension about making such a big change—you know—not just like this is a big career change, but this is a big change in how I operate on a day to day basis. That’s huge. So—you know—today, these days, what does a typical week look like? [45:57] SC Well, it’s kind of crazy right now because I’m in this—you know—the last four weeks before the book comes out, so it’s a lot of working with PR. But usually it’s writing, it’s working on my blog, it’s—I have contributors who write and submit things and so looking at that stuff, it’s writing new material for stand-up, it’s going to an open mic maybe in the afternoon, maybe one or two open mics in the afternoon. Maybe I’ll have a show at night. And I am meeting a lot more people, I haven’t really found collaborators that I work with regularly yet, but that is something that I want to work on. I’d love to start a podcast like you ladies! That is something I have been thinking about, but I can’t get past coming up with a name! So, I would like to do something like a podcast or more regular content because for me, I’ve realized I love having a schedule and that’s been the hardest thing for me is just to have a consistent schedule. KL Yeah, I appreciate that. Especially being in a field that is—you know—very much creative, I think people often underestimate how much it helps to have a schedule, how much it helps to have stability, however you can make that happen. So what is great about working as a full time comedian and working the way that you work right now and maybe what’s kind of harder about it? SC I think what’s great about it is kind of what I was saying before is that I have so many outlets to discover myself and who I really am, which is something that I think is just really important for a life, you know? To know you left everything on the table and you told every story that you wanted to tell and you let everyone know who you are—and you didn’t leave this world without telling everybody that. And I think that’s really important. And then using that to inspire other people and—when I get people writing me that they are starting to draw or are starting to write satire or they are doing something else, that’s really exciting for me, and I hope that I can do more of that, which is create more things to inspire more people to create things. That’s the thing that’s great about it, it’s kind of this journey for me as a person that I get to be on and I don’t have to dedicate the majority of my day to being at a job that I am not that excited about. I can devote most of my day to doing things that get me closer to who I want to be as a person. And the thing that’s hard is staying motivated and, you know, getting out of bed, not getting frustrated to the point where I just feel like I don’t want to do anything because nothing’s working. You know, it’s really hard just when there’s nobody telling you, “hey, there’s a deadline.” You make the deadlines, sometimes you just don’t want to do that thing or you just don’t feel motivated to do that thing and so it’s—I think that’s the hardest thing is finding that consistency and that motivation for me so that I can keep going without having any external people telling me what to do. [49:00] SWB Do you have any techniques that you’ve found work for you when you’re having those moments where you’re like, “well what if I just got back under the covers?” SC Yeah. I have a journal called the “Best Self Journal” and it it has kind of changed my life and if—sometimes I use it and sometimes I don’t. If I don’t use it, it’s very bad. If I use it, it changes my day. And basically what I do is the night before, I will write down every hour of how I’m going to spend the next day and doing that makes me—first of all, it makes me realize, “hey, there are—there are enough hours in the day to get done what you want to do” and also it just is this thing that I keep referring back to throughout the day to kind of stay on track. And so if I have that, it really helps me keep going because I have this plan and I can kind of follow that plan. If there’s nothing, if my day is just an open blue sky, then I will just piss it away on Twitter—and that’s—that’s what I’ll do. So, that has really helped me. SWB I love the “Best Self Journal.” I know that I’m not going to be my best self necessarily every day, [SC laughs quietly] but thinking about what would I be doing if I was really being my best version of myself in this moment is like—that sounds like a pretty cool exercise. SC Yeah. SWB Sarah, this has been really great and we are about out of time, so I have one last question for you, which is just, where can folks follow your work? SC So, my personal website is sarahcpr.com. s-a-r-a-h-c-p-r.com—c-p-r is just short for Cooper, it doesn’t mean I know CPR or anything like that. And you can see all my events on there and all my press and all that stuff. If you want to check out thecooperreview.com, that has all of the blog posts and hopefully we will return to a regular publishing schedule there as well, once we get out of the book craziness. SWB Well, that’s awesome. So, everybody, you heard her—follow Sarah and also How to Be Successful Without Hurting Men’s Feelings is going to be on sale by the time you’re listening to this. And even though I’m personally pretty okay with hurting some men’s feelings, I definitely loved it. So, pick it up! And Sarah, thank you so much for being here. SC Thank you. And the book has mustaches in the back that you can actually wear, so another reason to buy it. [laughs & KL & SWB join in] KL Perfect. [music fades in, plays for five seconds, and fades out] [51:20] Sponsor: Shopify SWB [Ad spot] Hey, it’s time for a quick career check with Shopify. This week we have Zeina Naboulsi on the line. She’s the executive assistant to Shopify’s CEO, Tobi Lütke, and she’s here to talk about the interview process. Zeina, tell us what you’ve learned! Zeina Naboulsi Well, one of the pieces of advice we constantly give to candidates is “just be yourself.” And it sounds so clichéd, but it’s true. Three years ago, when I interviewed at Shopify—or even when I recently sat down with Tobi about my new role—I just remember giving myself permission to be authentically me. This alleviated so much pressure. This is a new challenge for me, but going forward, I can look at it from a lens that’s really mine. Interviewing is nerve-wracking enough as it is. Imagine spending the whole time trying to be someone else. Just think, if you can approach an interview being your authentic self, you know that you’re going to show up on day one and every day after that as you. SWB Thanks, Zeina! That might sound hard to do, but it’s so true. And if you want to work with folks like Zeina, then you should check out Shopify. They’ve got roles in offices around the world, all at shopify.com/careers. [music fades in, plays for five seconds, and fades out] Fuck Yeah of the Week SWB Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. My fuck yeah today. It’s very important. KL Yeah? What is it? SWB Rock and roll. KL I love rock and roll! SWB I think there was a song like that… KL Was there? [laughs] SWB Probably. Okay, so specifically, tonight me and Katel are going to go and see Courtney Barnett— KL Ughh! SWB —and I just love her so much! Her album from earlier this year, “Tell Me How You Really Feel,” has been on repeat for me over and over and over again for the past few months. KL Me too, I love Courtney Barnett and I remember when she came out with the song “Avant Gardener,” which is essentially a song about her having a full-on public panic attack. And it’s such a great song, I identified with it so much. I really appreciate that she sings about anxiety [laughs] and depression and brings it into her art and she’s just so fucking good, I can not wait. SWB Yes. You know, there’s just something about her songwriting that really gets me because it’s like it’s quirky and fun, but it’s also often really open about things that are sad or difficult. And so I like that kind of juxtaposition and it feels really honest and kind of disarming, right? Because it feels like—it feels like you’re kind of really getting to know her. And so it makes me happy hearing her voice and it makes me feel like we don’t have to pretend that things are fine when they’re not, but that also, things are going to be okay and it’s okay even if you’re sad. KL Yeah. Plus I love any opportunity to hang out with you solo, obviously, but we are taking our partners with us tonight, so that’s a bonus. We’re doing a double date! And we’re so cool, we’re doing it on a school night. [laughs][54:01] SWB I totally still feel like, “oh my god, we’re going out on a school night.” I used to go to a lot of shows in my twenties—all through my twenties I went to shows constantly and I feel like the past few years, I really haven’t made it to as much as I would like. And—you know—part of it is getting older and it gets late and I get tired and I’m not going to lie, that happens and I’m okay with that. I’m actually pretty okay with that. But part of it I think has been because my work life has resulted in a lot of travel—I’m in and out of town, I’m at conferences, it’s sort of like going to a concert can sometimes feel just like a lot. And it’s also just hard to keep up with bands and when they’re going to be in town and am I going to be in town? So, I feel like that’s been less of my life than I’d like it to be, but I’m trying to kind of bring a little bit more balance back around that. So, we saw Sweet Spirit a few months ago. And then just recently me and Will, we went to go and see Liz Phair and relive some awesome nineties vibes, that was also excellent. KL I’m so sad I missed that. SWB Yeah, I felt like I was one of the youngs at the show—[KL laughs] KL Yeah. SWB —which is also a pretty interesting feeling because I don’t feel like that that often anymore. And so—I don’t know—I like that I feel like I’m kind of coming to terms with where I am in life, which is that I can’t go to everything and I’m also—I’m not going to go out for a drink with you after the show. KL No. SWB I’m going home! KL Going to bed. SWB I’m definitely going to bed. And—you know—I don’t really want to go to a festival. KL Yeah, no. Those are over for me. SWB But I still fucking love a good, live show and I am so fucking excited to be out there tonight seeing Courtney Barnett. So, fuck yeah to getting out and seeing artists you love! KL And fuck yeah to badass women musicians. SWB Fuck yeah! Well, that is it for this week’s episode of No, You Go. NYG is recorded in our home city of Philadelphia and it is produced by Steph Colbourn. Our theme music is by The Diaphone. Thanks to Sarah Cooper for being our guest today. KL Thanks for listening. And hey, if you like our show, don’t forget to subscribe and rate it wherever you listen to podcasts. Oh, and tell a friend or two. See you again next week! SWB Bye! [music fades in, plays alone for 32 seconds, and fades out]

It’s a rough year after a rough year after…a rough year. Writer, journalist, and #disabledandcute creator Keah Brown reminds us to celebrate our wins and find joy anyway. Keah has written for publications like Harper’s Bazaar, Teen Vogue, Essence, Catapult, Lenny Letter, The Rumpus, and Glamour. She also has cerebral palsy—and one day in 2017, she was feeling cute. So she posted a photo of herself with the hashtag #disabledandcute, and boom: she started a movement. Since then, she’s signed her first book deal, written about everything from Lilliam Rivera to Solange, and generally taken the world by storm. Plus, Roxane Gay thinks she’s great. What more is there to say? > We spend so much time with disability narratives either being used to prop up an able-bodied character, or to die for the emotional turmoil of an able-bodied character. And I’m just like, nope. I live at the end of this book, and I’m going to keep living, and you’re going to see more of me, because I’m not going anywhere. > —Keah Brown, writer and #disabledandcute creator Keah tells us all about: Starting the #disabledandcute movement Her Teen Vogue cover story on disabled representation in fashion Being named to The Root 100 list of most influential African-Americans Writing for Roxane Gay’s Unruly Bodies series The double-edged sword of being the “go-to disability writer” Working on her first essay collection, The Pretty One, due out from Atria Books next fall Relying on Demi Lovato, Paramore, and her friends to get through the hard parts Plus: Katel tells us all about her workshop with last week’s guest, Sonalee Rashatwar Sara has a very attractive knee surgeon Don’t miss Milena Paulina’s gorgeous photos of fat bodies Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers for more. Harvest, makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off your first paid month. Away makes stylish, high-quality luggage with amazing built-in features—like a laundry bag and USB charger. Use code NYG to save $20 today at awaytravel.com/nyg.

In this episode I virtually sit down with Keah Brown, writer, journalist and disability activist. Keah and I discuss her writing process, and how she has come to appreciate her earlier work as part of the growth that got her to where she is today. We talk about disrupting disability discourses and choosing self-love. In Keah's words: "I spent most of my life tearing myself down, because I thought I was supposed to, because how else are you supposed to live in a body like mine? But what I know now is that I live every single day with so much joy. How could I not give myself the same love that people have been giving me my whole life?" Keah is the creator of the hashtag, #disabledandcute, and has an essay collection coming out in 2019 called The Pretty One. You can continue to follow Keah at keahbrown.com and on social media @keah_maria.

In this episode I virtually sit down with Keah Brown, writer, journalist and disability activist. Keah and I discuss her writing process, and how she has come to appreciate her earlier work as part of the growth that got her to where she is today. We talk about disrupting disability discourses and choosing self-love. In Keah's words: "I spent most of my life tearing myself down, because I thought I was supposed to, because how else are you supposed to live in a body like mine? But what I know now is that I live every single day with so much joy. How could I not give myself the same love that people have been giving me my whole life?" Keah is the creator of the hashtag, #disabledandcute, and has an essay collection coming out in 2019 called The Pretty One. You can continue to follow Keah at keahbrown.com and on social media @keah_maria. 

Keah Brown is a journalist, freelance writer, and the creator of the #DisabledAndCute hashtag. Her work has appeared in Teen Vogue, Essence.com, Catapult, Glamour Magazine, Harper's Bazaar, and Lenny Letter among other publications. Her debut essay collection THE PRETTY ONE is forthcoming from Atria Books. In this episode, Keah talks about her forthcoming book, and what it took to complete the first Continue Reading…

Keah Brown is a journalist, freelance writer, and the creator of the #DisabledAndCute hashtag. Her work has appeared in Teen Vogue, Essence.com, Catapult, Glamour Magazine, Harper’s Bazaar, and Lenny Letter among other publications. Her debut essay collection THE PRETTY ONE is forthcoming from Atria Books. In this episode, Keah talks about her forthcoming book, and what it took to complete the first Continue Reading…

This week, writer, journalist, and disability rights activist Keah Brown joins Ana for a difficult conversation about disability, ableism, and body positivity. Their wide-ranging conversation begins with Keah detailing how she’s worked to find self love and body positivity and a discussion on the lack of representation disabled people face in movies and popular culture writ large. They then turn to Keah’s desire not to be pigeonholed as a writer, and the pro’s and con’s of using Twitter to connect with other people. The conversation ends on an important note, when Ana apologizes for using ableist language, and the importance of looking at disability as something that is not static, but that comes in a variety of forms, as well as the need for privileged people to leave their comfort zones and be willing to make mistakes to expand their own horizons. Then, Crooked Contributor Erin Ryan stops by to answer a listener question about navigating romantic relationships across a political divide. Ana and Erin come to the consensus that debating from similar source material, and talking to rather than past each other is essential. Sometimes to hear someone, you have to accept that you might not convince them you’re right. Ana referenced several pieces Keah has written on the pod, which you can find below. On the erasure of Stephen Hawking’s disability On the importance of filters, and lipstick On the lack of representation of disabled people Get in touch with us at withfriendslikepod@gmail.com and on Twitter at @crooked_friends. Check out our sponsors! Get your body moving in your workspace at fully.com/friends. Check out squarespace.com/friends for a free trial, and when you’re ready to launch save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain name with the offer code “friends.” Turn your Pinterest board into reality with 25% off your design package at havenly.com/friends. Go to getquip.com/friends to get your first refill pack free with a Quip electric toothbrush.

Keah Brown is a journalist and writer whose work has appeared in Harpers Bazaar, Essence, Catapult, Teen Vogue, Lenny Letter and elsewhere. She is currently a senior entertainment writer at Cliché Magazine - a premier digital fashion magazine that highlights pop culture, fashion trends, celebrities, beauty, and more. In this episode, Keah tells the story of Continue Reading…

Keah Brown is a journalist and writer whose work has appeared in Harpers Bazaar, Essence, Catapult, Teen Vogue, Lenny Letter and elsewhere. She is currently a senior entertainment writer at Cliché Magazine - a premier digital fashion magazine that highlights pop culture, fashion trends, celebrities, beauty, and more. In this episode, Keah tells the story of Continue Reading…

Keah Brown is not here to inspire you. What she is intending to do is be a beacon of self love, professional success, and next level cuteness. She's also willing to call out people who don't respect the intersectional experience of disabled people of color. By starting the hashtag #DisabledAndCute on twitter, she's giving a platform for the disabled to celebrate themselves. The writer just released a delicious profile of feminist powerhouse Roxane Gay for Harper's Bazaar. She's trying to get the opportunity to dance on Ellen. Her movement is beautiful and inclusive. Get on board. Follow us on twitter: @Keah_Maria @katiefward

Today we’ve got the final episode in my three-part series with writer Keah Brown. If you haven’t listened to the other two episodes — 121 and 122 — please go back and listen to those first. Everything will make a little more sense if you do.  Today, I’m chatting with Keah about all of the people in our lives who keep us moving forward. We talk about why it’s so important to have a support system, different places to find and build community these days, and why having the right people in your world will make it a little easier to do the things that scare you. SHOW NOTES: Keah's work Keah on Instagram + Twitter #DisabledAndCute Roxane Gay Ashley C. Ford Tweet thread about writing/editing credits For the full episode + show notes, please visit creatingyourownpath.com.

I’m back today with writer Keah Brown and today we’re talking about something I haven’t spent much time on around here and that’s advocacy and the power of social media. Earlier this year, Keah started a hashtag on Twitter — #disabledandcute — and it took off just a few days later, creating an entire community around the concept. She shares the story behind it all in the episode and we also get into the power of positivity, how Keah is using her platform to advocate for herself and others, and why representation matters within the disability community and beyond. SHOW NOTES: Keah's work + press Keah on Instagram + Twitter Cerebral Palsy #DisabledAndCute Million Dollar Baby Alex Slater, Trident Media Group For the full episode + show notes, please visit creatingyourownpath.com.

Today's episode is the first in a three-part series featuring writer Keah Brown. She is a journalist who also writes poetry, fiction pieces, and non-fiction essays. She is also the mastermind behind an incredible movement called #disabledandcute, which something we get into a little more on next week’s show. What you need to know this week is that the hashtag went viral on Twitter back in February and has been gaining momentum ever since. In the interview, we’re starting at the beginning and learning more about Keah’s career and how she fell in love with the craft of writing. She also shares how she gets into the right frame of mind to write across different genres and outlets and why it’s important for everyone to let their voices be heard. SHOW NOTES: Keah's work Keah on Instagram + Twitter Sarah Dessen Tia Mowry-Hardrict Robert Jordan, Pianist Fredonia​​​​​ State University of New York For the full episode + show notes, please visit creatingyourownpath.com.

The snap general election is on the horizon so it would be remiss of a disability podcast if we didn't look at the accessibility of voting. It may be 2017, many might assume we've solved these issues by now, but it is still a work in progress. Meet Jordan Smith who has mild learning difficulties and Tracey Garcia from charity Dimensions who tell us more (A transcript can be found in the related links section of this page) In our look at social media this month, the creator of hashtag #disabledandcute, Keah Brown, goes for Netflix's teen suicide drama 13 Reasons Why, and she explains #cripthevoteuk. Then we meet Claire Connon and vlogger Carrie Beckwith-Fellows - both of whom don't eat food. Instead they have nutrients intravenously fed to them, in one case, directly into the heart. How does it all work? Presenters Simon Minty and Kate Monaghan ask Claire and Carrie the top questions: Does it mean you no longer poo? And if you invite a date back to your bedroom... how do you casually introduce the fact you've got tubes hanging out of you? Email ouch@bbc.co.uk tweet @bbcouch or find us on Facebook. Tell us what you think, and tell us your story. Subscribe to Ouch as a weekly podcast. It's not about disability, it's just disability-ish. Please review us on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. If you do this then more people who'd like the show will get to hear about it. And you can help too by sharing it, and liking it on Twitter or Facebook. We're back next week.

Writer Keah Brown talks with Shaun about her viral hashtag #DisabledAndCute. Follow Keah on Twitter: @keah_maria These episodes don't happen without your support. Thank you! Pledge as little as $1 per week at: http://patreon.com/nototally For a no-cost way of supporting the show, do all of your Amazon shopping from nototally.com/amazon. This will take you to Amazon's front page, and every purchase you make will send a few pennies our way. Thank you! Rating and reviewing us on iTunes is one of the most helpful things you could possibly do for us, and you can do it here: http://nototally.com/iTunes Comment at our website: http://nototally.comLike us on Facebook: https://facebook.com/nototallyYell at Shaun on Twitter: https://twitter.com/NoTotallyBother Brian on Twitter: https://twitter.com/leprcn

In this episode, I interview the creator of the viral hashtag #DisabledAndCute, author Keah Brown. I find out quite quickly that there was so much more to this hashtag than meets the eye. We learn just what #DisabledAndCute really means for the author, and what it could mean for disabled culture generally.Follow Keah Brown on Twitter: www.twitter.com/Keah_Maria