Podcast appearances and mentions of Alice Wong

As we prepare for what's coming in the new year, we're releasing a Best of 2025 series—by no means objective, and making plenty of tough decisions to leave a few favorites out. Each of these will also be posted in the public feed. We'll be back next Monday, January 12th, with new episodes in the patron feed. To support the show and help make episodes like this one possible, become a patron at https://www.patreon.com/deathpanelpod Original description: We say goodbye to our friends Alice Wong and Leslie Lee III. Show links: We're testing out a new Bookshop.org page (still under construction), where you can find books by past guests and book recommendations from the hosts. Find it here: bookshop.org/shop/deathpanel Get Health Communism here: bookshop.org/a/118130/9781839765179 Find Tracy's book Abolish Rent here: bookshop.org/a/118130/9798888902523 Find Jules' latest book, A Short History of Trans Misogyny, here: bookshop.org/a/118130/9781804291603 Outro by Time Wharp: timewharp.bandcamp.com/track/tezeta

Synopsis:  In a powerful tribute to a fearless leader, friends and collaborators share stories of Alice Wong's unwavering commitment to centering disabled voices and challenging systemic inequality in all its forms.This show is made possible by you! To become a sustaining member go to LauraFlanders.org/donateDescription: Alice Wong lived longer than she expected, but not long enough. The celebrated disability activist lived by the principle that disability justice is integral to all liberation movements, and centered disabled stories with the Disability Visibility Project. When Alice Wong died on November 14 at the age of 51, people across social movements shared their grief and awe for her work, such as her bestselling 2022 memoir, “Year of the Tiger: An Activist's Life”. She has been called an oracle, visionary, unapologetic and fearless, and our guests, Wong's dear friends and collaborators, are committed to lifting up her legacy. Sandy Ho is the Executive Director of the Disability & Philanthropy Forum and partner with Alice Wong and Mia Mingus in the Access is Love campaign. She was asked by Alice Wong to post her letter after she passed, where Wong writes “. . . our wisdom is incisive and unflinching.” Steven Thrasher is an acclaimed journalist, professor and author of “The Viral Underclass: The Human Toll When Inequality & Disease Collide”. He was suspended from teaching classes after speaking out — as Wong also did — on Palestine. Join us as we celebrate Alice Wong and ask what is the work to be done when it comes to healthcare and civil rights for disabled people. Plus a commentary from Laura on imagining the next 100 years.“A lot of Alice's advocacy was focused around the systems that force disabled people to be at the margins . . . Whether it is the Black Lives Matter movement or the pandemic, we see the ways in which our society and political systems respond, and not in ways that prioritize those who are least privileged and have the least amount of power.” - Sandy Ho“I remember talking to [Alice Wong] about the ways she had been conditioned as a disabled Asian American woman to try to accept crumbs, to not complain, to be very docile. I thought that she was really brilliant in bridging together not just Asian American communities, but queer communities, LGBTQ communities, all the communities where your body is made to feel like it doesn't belong.” - Steven ThrasherGuests:• Sandy Ho: Executive Director, Disability & Philanthropy Forum• Steven Thrasher: Daniel Renberg Chair of Social Justice in Reporting, Northwestern University; Author, The Viral Underclass & The Overseer Class *Recommended books:“Year of the Tiger: An Activist's Life” by Alice Wong, *Get the book“The Viral Underclass: The Human Toll When Inequality and Disease Collide” by Steven Thrasher, *Get the book(*Bookshop is an online bookstore with a mission to financially support local, independent bookstores. The LF Show is an affiliate of bookshop.org and will receive a small commission if you click through and make a purchase.) Watch the episode released on YouTube; PBS World Channel 11:30am ET Sundays and on over 300 public stations across the country (check your listings, or search here via zipcode). Listen: Episode airing on community radio (check here to see if your station airs the show) & available as a podcast January 14th, 2026.Full Episode Notes are located HERE.Full Conversation Release: While our weekly shows are edited to time for broadcast on Public TV and community radio, we offer to our members and podcast subscribers the full uncut conversation. Music Credit:  'Thrum of Soil' by Bluedot Sessions, 'Steppin' by Podington Bear, and original sound design by Jeannie Hopper Support Laura Flanders and Friends by becoming a member at https://www.patreon.com/c/lauraflandersandfriends RESOURCES:Related Laura Flanders Show Episodes:• “The Future is Disabled”: Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha: Watch / Listen:  Episode Cut and Full Uncut Conversation• The New Disabled Population in Gaza: Comedian & Disability Advocate Maysoon Zayid:  Watch / Listen:  Episode Cut and Full Uncut Conversation• Anita Cameron & Keith Jones on The Americans with Disabilities Act: A Civil Rights Milestone With Miles To Go:  Watch / Listen:  Episode CutRelated Articles and Resources:•  Disability Visibility Project, Founder:  Alice Wong•  DisabledWriters.com•  Access Is Love•  A Tribute to an Oracle, Alice Wong, by Rebecca Cokley, November 26, 2025, The Nation•  Trump Gutted AIDS Health. Care at the Worst Possible Time, by Steven W. Thrasher & Afeef Nessouli, December 1, 2025, The Intercept•  On Valentine's Day, Let's Recognize Why #AccessIsLove, by Alice Wong, February 14, 2019, Rooted In Rights•  Remembering Alice Wong:  Writer, Advocate, Friend, by Steven W. Thrasher, November 17, 2025, LitHub• Crips for eSims for Gaza, chuffed.org• Alice Wong Interview with Steven Thrasher with subtitles, Watch• Alice Wong, 2024 MacArthur Fellow, MacArthur Foundation Laura Flanders and Friends Crew: Laura Flanders-Executive Producer, Writer; Sabrina Artel-Supervising Producer; Jeremiah Cothren-Senior Producer; Veronica Delgado-Video Editor, Janet Hernandez-Communications Director; Jeannie Hopper-Audio Director, Podcast & Radio Producer, Audio Editor, Sound Design, Narrator; Sarah Miller-Development Director, Nat Needham-Editor, Graphic Design emeritus; David Neuman-Senior Video Editor, and Rory O'Conner-Senior Consulting Producer. FOLLOW Laura Flanders and FriendsInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/lauraflandersandfriends/Blueky: https://bsky.app/profile/lfandfriends.bsky.socialFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/LauraFlandersAndFriends/Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lauraflandersandfriendsYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFLRxVeYcB1H7DbuYZQG-lgLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/lauraflandersandfriendsPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/lauraflandersandfriendsACCESSIBILITY - The broadcast edition of this episode is available with closed captioned by clicking here for our YouTube Channel

In 1971, a red-headed, tree-loving astronaut named Stu ‘Smokey' Roosa was asked to take something to the moon with him. Of all things, he chose to take a canister of 500 tree seeds. After orbiting the moon 34 times, the seeds made it back to Earth. NASA decided to plant the seeds all across the country and then… everyone forgot about them. Until one day, a third grader from Indiana stumbled on a tree with a strange plaque: "Moon Tree." This discovery set off a cascading search for all the trees that visited the moon across the United States. Science writer, and our very own factchecker, Natalie Middleton (https://www.nataliemiddleton.org/) tells us the tale.Read Lulu's remembrance of Alice Wong for Transom.org: 13 questions I'll never get to ask Alice Wong (https://transom.org/2025/13-questions-ill-never-get-to-ask-alice-wong/). Check out Natalie's map to find your nearest moon tree on our show page (https://radiolab.org/podcast/the-travelers-how-moon-trees-hide-among-us)!Help us hunt for more moon trees. If you know of an undocumented moon tree, contact Natalie at nataliemiddleton.org. Check out Natalie's essay on Moon Trees (https://orionmagazine.org/article/moon-tree/) and Space Zinnias (https://orionmagazine.org/article/astronaut-scott-kelly-flower-experiment-space/) in Orion Magazine (https://orionmagazine.org/).Visit NASA's official Moon Tree Page (https://science.nasa.gov/resource/apollo-moon-trees/) for a list of all the Apollo 14 Moon Trees in the world. To learn more about Stu Roosa or to learn more about acquiring your own half Moon Tree, check out the Moon Tree Foundation (https://www.moontreefoundation.com/), spearheaded by Stu's daughter, Rosemary Roosa. A reminder that Terrestrials also makes original music! You can find ‘Tangled in the Roots' and all other music from the show here (https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab-kids/just-the-songs).EPISODE CREDITS: Terrestrials was created by Lulu Miller with WNYC Studios. This episode was produced by Tanya Chawla and sound-designed by Joe Plourde. Our Executive Producer is Sarah Sandbach. Our team includes Alan Goffinski, Ana González and Mira Burt-Wintonick. Fact checking was by Diane Kelly. Special thanks to Sumanth Prabhaker from Orion magazine, retired NASA Scientist Dr. Dave Williams, Joan Goble, Tre Corely and NASA scientist Dr. Marie Henderson.Our advisors for this show were Ana Luz Porzecanski, Nicole Depalma, Liza Demby and Carly Ciarrocchi.Support for Terrestrials also comes from the Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, and the John Templeton Foundation.Signup for our newsletter!! It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up (https://radiolab.org/newsletter)!Radiolab is supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab (https://members.radiolab.org/) today.Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @radiolab, and share your thoughts with us by emailing radiolab@wnyc.org.Leadership support for Radiolab's science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

You're listening to Thursday Breakfast's Summer Programming Series on 3CR Community Radio. Happy New Year!Today's show features a selection of interviews we've done with artists, writers, video game designers, and filmakers. We hear about the importance of disabled oracles, 'Blaktasia' the First ever Aboriginal mobile game, the Famili music collective's EP 'Bloodfire', Tony Birch's 'Pictures of You' collection, and the short film 'Sister Mine' & fighting against casteism. Acknowledgement of Country// Pauline Vetuna - 3CR Disability Day (20 Nov 25) //Writer, artist, and 3CR's Disability Day coordinator Pauline Vetuna shares some reflections on the work of disabled oracles in transforming the world in the wake of the recent passing of revolutionary disability activist Alice Wong. Pauline also reflects on the importance of critically attending to how we practice solidarity and community with disability justice at the core, disabled ancestorhood, and this year's upcoming Disability Day special broadcast on the 3rd of December.// Blaktasia (14 Aug 25) //Elijah McDonald (Noongar, Pitta Pitta, Yamatji) Tech Artist, Junior Programmer and Rosie Kalina (Wemba Wemba, Gundjitmara) Art and Culture Producer from Blaktasia, this continent's first ever Aboriginal mobile game, joined us in the studio to discuss the making of the game, art, inspiration, and the everyday work it takes make a game by Mob for Mob, where you restore the bush & defeat the corrupting force of The Murk. Set in a Blak world inspired by Country, you don't want to miss this! // Poro - FAMILI (27 Nov 25) // Poro, a member of FAMILI, a collective born at the intersection of Pasifika, Blak, queer, and trans experiences joins us to discuss their EP BLOODFIRE released yesterday, as well as their Short Film. Their work connects past, present, and future into a space that refuses easy categorisation, a space where ancestral traditions met futuristic sounds. We spoke about their show on Thursday 27th Nov 7pm at the Northcote Theatre featuring an hour-long set of new, unreleased music – years in development. Support their work on Bandcamp and follow them on Instagram. // Tony Birch - Pictures of You (23 Sep 25) // Multi-award winning author Tony Birch joined us in the studio to discuss the upcoming launch of Pictures of You, a selection of the best of his short fiction works over the past two decades. The collection brings together some of Birch's most poignant stories, taking readers through the humour, heartbreak, and rich complexity of everyday human experience. Pictures of You is published by the University of Queensland Press and hits bookstores on the 30th of September - pre-order your copy here. Tony Birch is an activist, historian and essayist, and is currently the Boisbouvier Chair in Australian Literature at the University of Melbourne.// Akshay Gouri - Sister Mine (09 Oct 25) // CW: Gendered violence, femicide, casteismAkshay Gouri, maker of the short film 'Sister Mine' - When Amarjeet is sent to Melbourne with a tragic mission — to protect family "honor" by taking his sister's life, who has had an inter-caste marriage — he instead finds love, warmth, and conflict in the home of the woman he was meant to destroy. Sister Mine is a powerful story of cultural pressure, sibling love, and humanity winning over hate. Akshay Gouri is a Screenwriter and Director who has made 8 short films, both fiction and non-fiction, pertaining to Political issues, Socio-economic realities and their consequences on people. Watch their incredible short films collection via Youtube. 

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. APEX Express and Lavender Phoenix are both members of AACRE, Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality. AACRE focuses on long-term movement building, capacity infrastructure, and leadership support for Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders committed to social justice.   To learn more about Lavender Phoenix, please visit their website. You can also listen to a previous APEX Express episode honoring Lavender Phoenix's name change.    Miata Tan: ​[00:00:00] Hello and welcome. You are tuning in to APEX Express, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans. I am your host, Miata Tan. And before we get started, I wanted to let you know that this show was recorded on December 16th, 2025. Things may have changed by the time you hear this. I also wanted to take a moment to acknowledge [00:01:00] some recent gun violence tragedies, not only in the US but globally. As you might be able to tell from my accent, I'm Australian.  Over the weekend, 15 people were killed in Sydney, on Bondi Beach in a mass shooting. The likes not seen in 30 years. . Australia's gun control laws are different to the US in a number of ways that I won't get into right now, but this massacre is one of the few we've seen since the nineties. In the US we've also seen the shooting at Brown University where two of their students were killed by a still active shooter. It's strange. Guns and weapons are horrific. Tools used to take the life of people every day globally. An everyday occurrence now brings a degree of complacency. Although you personally might not have been [00:02:00] impacted by these recent shootings, the wars going on abroad, or government attacks on immigrant communities, and ICE deportation cases taking place here in America, the impact of horrific acts of violence have ripple effects that spread across this country and world. Careless violence motivated by hate for another be that racially charged conflicting ideologies. It's all awful. And I, and I guess I wanted to acknowledge that here at the top of this episode. Profound hatred and judgment toward others is not only incredibly sad, it's self-defeating. And I don't mean to sound all preachy and I understand it's December 25th and perhaps you're sick of the sound of my voice and you're about to change the station. In all honesty, I, I would've by [00:03:00] now. It's easy to tune out suffering. It's easy to tune out violence, but if you're still listening. Today, as many of us are gathering for the holiday ,season, whether or not you believe in a higher power or acknowledge that big guy in a red suit that brings kids presents, I invite you to sit with some of these thoughts. To acknowledge and reflect on the violence that exists around us, the hatred and dehumanization. We as humans are capable of feeling toward one another. Let's just sit here for a moment with that uncomfortability. Now. Think, what can I do today to make another's life [00:04:00] just that tiny bit brighter? Okay. Now to reintroduce myself and this show, my name is Miata Tan and this is APEX Express. A show that honors Asian American communities far and wide, uplifting the voices of artists, activists, organizers, and more. We have two incredible guests today from Lavender Phoenix, a Bay Area based organization supporting queer and trans Asian and Pacific Islander youth. I really enjoyed my conversation with these two, and I'm sure you will as well. And a quick note throughout both of these conversations, you'll hear us referring to the organization as both Lavender Phoenix and it's very cute nickname Lav Nix. Without further ado, here's [00:05:00] my conversation with Yuan Wang, the outgoing director at Lavender Phoenix.   Miata Tan: Yuan, thank you so much for joining us today. Would you be able to share a little bit about yourself with our listeners to get started?  Yuan Wang: Yeah. I'm so excited to be here. , My name is Yuan. My pronouns are she, and they, and I'm actually the outgoing executive director of Lavender Phoenix. You're catching me on my second to last week in this role after about four years as the executive director, and more years on our staff team as an organizer and also as a part of our youth summer organizer program. So this is a really exciting and special time and I'm really excited to reflect about it with you.  Miata Tan: Yay. I'm so excited. I'd love for you to give us an overview of Lavender Phoenix and the work that y'all do, what communities you support,  Yuan Wang: Lavender Phoenix was founded about 21 years ago, and we are based in the Bay [00:06:00] Area. We're a grassroots organization that builds the power of transgender non-binary and queer Asian and Pacific Islander communities right here in the Bay. Right now our work focuses on three major Areas. The first is around fighting for true community safety. There are so, so many ways that queer, trans, and more broadly, uh, working class communities in the San Francisco Bay Area. Are needing ways to keep ourselves and each other safe, that don't rely on things like policing, that don't rely on things like incarceration that are actually taking people out of our communities and making us less safe. The second big pillar of our work is around healing justice. We know that a lot of folks in our community. Struggle with violence, struggle with trauma, struggle with isolation, and that a lot of the systems that exist aren't actually really designed for queer and trans API people, to thrive and feel connected. And [00:07:00] so, we've been leading programs and campaigns around healing justice. And the last thing is we're trying to build a really principled, high integrity leaderful movement. So we do a ton of base building work, which just means that, everyday queer and trans API people in our community can come to Lavender Phoenix, who want to be involved in organizing and political work. And we train folks to become organizers. Miata Tan: And you yourself came into Lavender Phoenix through one of those programs, is that right?  Yuan Wang: Yeah. Um, that is so true. I came into Lavender Phoenix about seven or eight years ago through the Summer organizer program, which is kind of our flagship youth organizing fellowship. And I was super lucky to be a part of that.  Miata Tan: How has that felt coming into Lavender Phoenix? Like as a participant of one of those programs? Yeah. And now, uh, over the past few years, being able to [00:08:00] lead the organization?  Yuan Wang: Yeah. It feels like the most incredible gift. I share this a lot, but you know, when I had come into Lavender Phoenix through the summer organizer program, I had already had some experience, doing organizing work, you know, doing door knocking, working on campaigns. but I really wanted to be in a space where I felt like I could be all of myself, and that included being trans, you know, that included. Being in a really vulnerable part of my gender transition journey and wanting to feel like I was around people all the time who maybe were in a similar journey or could understand that in a really intimate way. I really found that at Lavender Phoenix. It was pretty unbelievable, to be honest. I remember, uh, the first day that I walked in. There were members and volunteers leading a two hour long political education that was just about the histories of trans and non-binary people in different Asian and Pacific Islander communities. So just being in a room [00:09:00] full of people who shared my identities and where, where we were prioritizing these histories was really, really exciting. I think for the years it's just been so amazing to see Lavender Phoenix grow. The time when I joined, we had a totally different name. It was API equality, Northern California, or we called ourselves a pink and we were really focused on projects like the Dragon Fruit Project, which was a, a series of more than a hundred oral histories that we did with elders and other members members of our community. Things like the Trans Justice Initiative, which were our first efforts at really building a community that was trans centered and that was, was building trans leaders. And now those things are so deeply integrated into our work that they've allowed us to be focused on some more, I think what we call like issue based work, and that that is that community safety, healing justice work. That I mentioned earlier. So, it's just been amazing to witness multiple generations of the organization that has shaped [00:10:00] me so much as a person.  Miata Tan: That's really nice. Seven, eight years that, that whole  Yuan Wang: Yeah, I joined in 2018 in June, so you can maybe do, I think that's about seven and a half years. Yeah. I'm bad at math though.  Miata Tan: Me too. So you've been executive director since late 2021 then? This, these few years since then we've seen a lot of shifts and changes in our I guess global political culture and the way conversations around racial solidarity issues mm-hmm. as you've navigated being executive director, what, what has changed in your approach maybe from 2021 till this year? 2025?  Yuan Wang: Wow, that's such an interesting question. You're so right to say that. I think for anyone who's listening, I, I imagine this resonates that the last four years have [00:11:00] been. Really a period of extraordinary violence and brutality and grief in our world. And that's definitely true for a lot of folks in Lavender Phoenix. You mentioned that we've been living through, you know, continued pandemic that our government is providing so little support and recognition for. We've seen multiple uprisings, uh, in the movement for black lives to defend, you know, and, and bring dignity to the lives of people who were killed and are police. And obviously we're still facing this immense genocide in Gaza and Palestine bombings that continue. So I think if there's, if there's anything that I could say to your question about how my approach has changed. I would say that we as a whole, as an organization have had to continue to grow stronger and stronger in balancing our long-term vision. Intensifying urgent needs of right now and [00:12:00] balancing doing the work that it takes to defend our people and try to change institutions with the incredible and at times overwhelming grief of living in this moment. Yeah, you know, in this past year, um. Have been members of our community and, and our larger community who have passed away. Uh, I'm sure there are some listeners who know, Alice Wong, Patty by architects of the disability justice movement that Lavender Phoenix has learned so much from who have passed away. And we've had to balance, you know. Like one week there's threats that the National Guard and that ICE will be deployed and even higher numbers to San Francisco and, and across the Bay Area. And oh my gosh, so many of us are sitting with an incredible personal grief that we're trying to hold too. So, I think that's been one of the biggest challenges of the last few years is, is finding that balance. Yeah. I can say that some of the things that I feel proudest of are, [00:13:00] you know, just as an example, in our healing justice work, over the past four years, our members have been architecting a, a trans, API peer counseling program. And, through that program they've been able to provide, first of all, train up. So many trans API, people as skilled, as attentive, as loving peer counselors who are then able to provide that. Free, uh, accessible peer mental health support to other people who need it. So I think that's just one example. Something that gives me a lot of hope is seeing the way that our members are still finding ways to defend and love and support each other even in a time of really immense grief.  Miata Tan: That's really beautiful and it's important that you are listening to your community members at this time. How do you, this is kind of specific, but how do you all gather together? Yeah, Yuan Wang: yeah. You know, I feel really lucky 'cause I think for the last 10 years we, Lavender Phoenix as a whole, even before I was a part of it, has been [00:14:00] building towards a model of really collective governance. Um, and, and I don't wanna make it sound like it. You know, it's perfect. It's very challenging. It's very hard. But I think like our comrades at Movement generation often say, if we're not prepared to govern, then we're not prepared to win. And we try to take that, that practice really seriously here. So, you know, I think that, that getting together. That making decisions with each other, that making sure that members and staff are both included. That happens at like a really high strategic level. You know, the three pillars of our theory of change that I mentioned earlier, those were all set through a year of strategy retreats between our staff, but also a. 10 to 15 of our most experienced and most involved members who are at that decision making. The same comes for our name, uh, Lavender Phoenix. You know, it was, it was really our core committee, our, our member leaders who helped decide on that name. And then we invited some of our elders to speak about what it meant for them, for us to choose Lavender Phoenix, because it was an homage to the work [00:15:00] so many of our elders did in the eighties and nineties. It also looks like the day-to-day, because a lot of our work happens through specific committees, whether it's our community safety committee or healing justice committee. Um, and those are all committees where there's one staff person, but it's really a room of 5, 10, 15 members who are leading community safety trainings. The peer counseling program, training new members through our rise up onboarding, um, and setting new goals, new strategic targets every single year. So, it's always in progress. We're in fact right now working on some challenges and getting better at it, but we're really trying to practice what governing and self-determination together looks like right in our own organization. Miata Tan: And a lot of these people are volunteers too.  Yuan Wang: yeah, so when I joined the organization there were two staff, two mighty staff people at the time. We've grown to nine full-time staff people, but most of our organization is volunteers. [00:16:00] Yeah. And we call those folks members, you know, committed volunteers who are participants in one of our committees or projects. Um, and I believe right now there's about 80 members in Lavender Phoenix.  Miata Tan: Wow. It's wonderful to hear so much growth has happened in, um, this period that you've been with Lavender Phoenix. The idea of empowering youth, I think is core to a lot of Lavender Phoenix's work. What has that looked like specifically in the last few years, especially this year? Yuan Wang: Yeah, the  Miata Tan: challenges.  Yuan Wang: That's a great question. I think, um, you know, one of those ways is, is really specifically targeted towards young people, right? It's the summer organizer program, which I went through many years ago, and our previous executive director was also an alumnus of the summer organizer program, but that's, you know, an eight to 10 week fellowship. It's paid, it's designed specifically for young trans and queer API people who are working class, who grew up in the [00:17:00] Bay to organize with us and, and really. Hopefully be empowered with tools that they'll use for the next decade or for the rest of their life. But I'll also say, you know, you mentioned that Lavender Phoenix has grown so much in the last few years, and that is such a credit to folks who were here 10 years ago, even 15 years ago, you know, because, the intergenerational parts of our work started years before I was involved. You know, I mentioned earlier the Dragon Fruit Project where we were able to connect so, so many elders in our community with a lot of younger folks in our community who were craving relationships and conversations and like, what happened in the eighties? What happened in the nineties, what did it feel like? Why are you still organizing? Why does this matter to you? And we're actually able to have those conversations with folks in, in our community who. Have lived and fought and organized for decades already. So I think that was like one early way we started to establish that like intergenerational in our work.[00:18:00]  And a lot of those folks have stayed on as volunteers, as supporters, some as members, and as donors or advisors. So I feel really lucky that we're still benefiting in terms of building the leadership of young people, but also intergenerational reality overall because of work that folks did 10 years ago. Miata Tan: That's really important. Having those, those ties that go back. Queer history is so rich, especially in the, in the Bay Area. And there's a lot to honor.  With the intersection between queer and immigrant histories here, I wonder if you have anything that comes to mind. Yuan Wang: I think that queer and immigrant histories intersect in the lives of so many of our, our members and, and the people who are inspiration too. You know, I'm not sure that. I think a lot of listeners may not know that Lavender Phoenix is as a name. It's an homage to Lavender, Godzilla, [00:19:00] and Phoenix Rising, which were two of the first publications. They were newsletters launched back in the eighties by groups of. Uh, trans and queer API, folks who are now elders and who were looking around, you know, learning from the Black Power movement, learning from solidarity movements in the Bay Area, and saying we really need to create spaces where. Trans and queer Asian Pacific Islanders can talk about our journeys of migration, our family's journeys as refugees, our experiences with war, and then also about love and joy and finding friendship and putting out advertisements so that people could get together for potlucks. So yeah, I think, um, there's so much about the intersection of immigrant and queer and trans journeys that have been. Just even at the root of how we name ourselves and how we think of ourselves as an or as an organization today.  Miata Tan: I think today, more than ever all of these [00:20:00] communities feel a little more than a little under threat,  Yuan Wang: we could say so much about that. I think one thing that we're really paying attention to is, uh, we're seeing in different communities across the country, the ways in which the right wing is. Uh, kind of wielding the idea of trans people, uh,  the perceived threat that trans people pose. As a wedge issue to try to build more more power, more influence, more connections in immigrant communities and in the process like really invisiblizing or really amplifying the harm that immigrant, trans and queer. People experience every single day. So I think something that we're thinking about on the horizon, you know, whether it's, uh, partnering with organizations in California or in the Bay Area or across the country who are doing that really critical base building work, power building work in immigrant communities is trying to ask, you know. How do we actually proactively as [00:21:00] progressives, as people on the left, how do we proactively have conversations with immigrant communities about trans and queer issues, about the, uh, incredibly overlapping needs that trans and queer people in all people who are marginalized right now have in these political conditions? Um, how can we be proactive about those combinations and making those connections so that, we can kind of inoculate folks against the way that the right wing is targeting trans people, is fear mongering about trans people and trying to make inroads in immigrant communities. Yeah. That's one thing on our radar for the future. Miata Tan: That's so important. Kind of, breaking down those, those stereotypes Yuan Wang: totally breaking down stereotypes, breaking down misinformation. And yeah, it reminds me of a few years ago Lavender Phoenix held a few conversations with a partner organization of ours where there were some younger folks from our organization who are talking to some older immigrant members of that organization and we're just [00:22:00] connecting about, the sacred importance of, parenting trans and queer kids right now of, you know, and, and just having conversations that actually humanize all of us rather than buying into narratives and stories that that dehumanize and, and that flatten us. Yeah. Um, so that we can defend ourselves from the way that the right wing is trying to hurt immigrant communities and trans and queer communities. Miata Tan: the youth that you work directly with each week. Is there anything as you reflect back on your, your time with Laxs that really stand out, things that folks have said or led conversations in?  Yuan Wang: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, I, I could, I could celebrate things that I've witnessed every single year. You know, we the young people in the summer organizer program experience so, so much in, in many ways it's kind of like the faucets, like all the way on, you know, like there's, [00:23:00] they're learning so much about skills and values and projects and, you know, just as some examples this last summer, we had a team of summer organizers who helped lead an event that was about COVID safety and disability justice, where people actually got together to build DIY air filters that could hopefully, you know, make them feel safer in their own homes. And, um, in previous years we've had summer organizers work on the peer counseling program. There's so much that folks have done. I think what I actually hear year after year is oftentimes the thing that sticks out the most, it isn't necessarily just the project, it isn't necessarily like the hard skill training. It's people saying every single week during our team check-ins, someone shared an affirmation with me. I felt more seen. It's people saying, you know, I didn't expect that we were gonna do a three hour training. That was just about why it's so important [00:24:00] to ask for help and why that can be so, so difficult for, um, for queer and trans young folks. It's folks saying, you know, even speaking for myself actually. I remember being a summer organizer and one of, uh, my close friends now one of our elders, Vince spoke on a panel for us and, talked about what it was like to be young during the height of the hiv aids crisis, you know, when the government was neglecting to care for folks and so many members of our community were dying without care, were, were passing away without support. And all of the lessons that Vince took from that time holds now, decades later that still make him feel more hopeful, more committed, more full as a person. Um, that meant so much to me to hear when I was 21 and, still feeling really scared and really lonely, about the future. So I think it's those, I, I wouldn't even call them like softer skills, but the [00:25:00] incredible st. Sturdiness and resilience that building long-term relationships creates that seeing people who show you a potential path, if it's been hard to imagine the future. And that building the skills that make relationships more resilient. I feel like it's those things that always stand out the most to a lot of our young people. And then to me, I see them grow in it and be challenged by those things every single year. I feel really good. 'cause I know that at the end of the summer organizer program, there's a group of young, queer and trans API rising leaders who are gonna bring that level of rigorous kindness, attentive attentiveness to emotions, um, of vulnerability that creates more honesty and interdependence. They're gonna be taking that to an another organization, to another environment, to another year in our movement. That makes me feel really happy and hopeful.  Miata Tan: Yes. Community.  Yuan Wang: Yeah.  Miata Tan: . [00:26:00] Looking towards that bright future that you, you shared just now Tina Shelf is coming on as the executive director. What are your hopes for 2026 Yuan Wang: yeah. You know, I'm, I'm so excited that we're welcoming Tina and we're really lucky because Tina joined us in August of this year. So we've had a good, like five months to overlap with each other and to really, um, for all of us, not just me, but our staff, our members, to really welcome and support Tina in onboarding to the role. I feel incredibly excited for Lavender Phoenix's future. I think that in this next year, on one hand, our Care Knock Cops campaign, which has been a huge focus of the organization where uh, we've been rallying other organizations and people across San Francisco to fight to direct funding from policing to. To protect funding that's being threatened every year for housing, for healthcare, for human services that people really [00:27:00] need. I think we're gonna see that campaign grow and there are so many members and staff who are rigorously working on that every single day. And on the other hand, I think that this is a time for Lavender Phoenix to really sturdy itself. We are in we're approaching, the next stage of an authoritarian era that we've been getting ready for many years and is in other ways as so many folks are saying new and unprecedented. So I think, um, a lot of our work in this next year is actually making sure that our members' relationships to each other are stronger, making sure that, responsibility, is shared in, in, in greater ways that encourage more and more leadership and growth throughout our membership so that we are more resilient and less res reliant on smaller and smaller groups of people. I think you're gonna see our program and campaign work continue to be impactful. And I'm really hopeful that when we talk again, maybe in two years, three years, five years, we're gonna be [00:28:00] looking at an organization that's even more resilient and even more connected internally.  Miata Tan: It's really important that y'all are thinking so long term, I guess, and have been preparing for this moment in many ways. On a personal note, as you are coming to an end as executive director, what's what's next for you? I'd love to know.  Yuan Wang: Yeah, that's such a sweet question. I'm going to, I'm gonna rest for a little bit. Yeah. I haven't taken a sustained break from organizing since I was 18 or so. So it's been a while and I'm really looking forward to some rest and reflection. I think from there. I'm gonna figure out, what makes sense for me in terms of being involved with movement and I'm, I'm certain that one of those things will be staying involved. Lavender Phoenix as a member. Really excited to keep supporting our campaign work. Really excited to keep supporting the organization as a whole just from a role that I've never had as a volunteer member. So, I'm just psyched for that and I can't [00:29:00] wait to be a part of Lavender Phoenix's future in this different way.  Miata Tan: Have fun. You'll be like on the other side almost. Yeah,  Yuan Wang: totally. Totally. And, and getting to see and support our incredible staff team just in a different way.  Miata Tan: One final question As you are sort of moving into this next stage, and this idea of community and base building being so incredibly important to your work and time with Lavender Phoenix, is there anything you'd like to say, I guess for someone who might be considering. Joining in some way or Yeah. Where they could get involved, but they're not, not quite sure. Yuan Wang: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think that if you are a queer and trans, API person who is looking for community, um, looking to channel what you care about into action, looking to be with other people who care about you Lavender Phoenix is here. [00:30:00] And I think that there is no more critical time. Than the one we're in to get activated and to try to organize. ‘Cause our world really needs us right now. The world needs all of us and it also really needs the wisdom, the experience, and the love of queer and trans people. So, I will be rejoining our membership at some point and I'd really like to meet you and I hope that we get to, to grow in this work and to, um, to fight for our freedom together. Miata Tan: Thank you so much. We, this was a really lovely conversation.  Yuan Wang: Yeah, thank you so much And also welcome Tina. Good luck. [00:31:00] [00:32:00] [00:33:00]  Miata Tan: That was the Love by Jason Chu, featuring Fuzzy. If you're just joining us, you are tuned into APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno and [00:34:00] online@kpfa.org. I am your host, Miata Tan, and today we are joined by the Lavender Phoenix team at a transitional point in the organization's story. Our next guest is Tina Shauf-Bajar, the incoming director of this local organization, supporting queer and trans Asian and Pacific Islander Youth. As a reminder throughout this conversation, you'll hear us referring to the org as both Lavender, Phoenix and Lani.     Miata Tan: Hi Tina. Tina Shauf-Bajar: Hi Miata.  Miata Tan: How you going today? Tina Shauf-Bajar: I'm doing well, thank you. How are you? Miata Tan: Yeah, not so bad. Just excited to speak with you. tell me more about yourself what's bringing you into Lavender Phoenix. Tina Shauf-Bajar: Sure, sure. Well I am the incoming executive director of Lavender Phoenix. Prior to this, I was working at the California Domestic Workers Coalition [00:35:00] and had also worked at the Filipino Community Center and, um, have done some grassroots organizing, building, working class power, um, over the last 20 years, of my time in the Bay Area. And I've been alongside Lavender Phoenix as an organization that I've admired for a long time. Um, and now at the beginning of this year, I was I had the opportunity to apply for this executive director position and talked with un, um, had a series of conversations with UN about, um, what this role looks like and I got really excited about being a part of this organization. Miata Tan: That's super cool. So you, you, you weren't quite in the space with Lavender Phoenix, but moving alongside them through your work, like what were what were the organizations that you were part of when you were, were working in tandem, I guess. Tina Shauf-Bajar: Well the organization that I feel like is most, most closely, relates with Lavender. Phoenix is, [00:36:00] um, Gabriela, which is a Filipino organization. It's a Filipino organization that's a part of a national democratic movement of the Philippines. And we advance national democracy in the Philippines. And, liberation for our people and our homeland. Sovereignty for our homeland. And Gabriela here in the US does organizing with other multi-sectoral organizations, including like migrant organizations, like Ante and youth organizations like Naan and we organize in diaspora. And the reason for that is because many of our families actually leave the Philippines due to, um, corrupt government governance, um, also like foreign domination and exploitation and plunder of our resources. And so many of us actually have to leave our countries to, to survive. And so we're still very connected. Gabriela is still very connected to, [00:37:00] um, the movement in the Philippines. And yeah, so we're advancing liberation for our people and have been alongside Lavender Phoenix for many years. And here we are. Miata Tan: That's beautiful. I love hearing about, all of these partnerships and, and colLavoration works that happen in the San Francisco Bay Area and, and beyond as well. it sounds like you're speaking from a personal place when you talk about, um, a lot of these immigrant communities. Could you speak more to your family background and what brings you into this? Tina Shauf-Bajar: The, the fight for immigrant justice? So I was born in the Philippines and um, I spent my childhood and adolescent since the, in the South Bay of LA and then came here to the Bay Area in the year 2000. Flashing back to when my parents immigrated here, my dad's family first came to the US um, by way of the Bay Area in the late sixties and [00:38:00] early seventies. My dad actually was a few years after he had arrived, was uh, drafted into the military so that they can send him to Vietnam, but instead of going to Vietnam, he took the test to go into the Air Force and traveled everywhere in the Air Force and ended up in the Philippines and met my, met my mom there. And so. That became like they got married and they had me, I was born in the Philippines. I have a younger sibling. And, um, and I think, um, growing up in, in a working class immigrant neighborhood black and brown neighborhood, um, it was always important to me to like find solidarity between. Between communities. I actually grew up in a neighborhood that didn't have a lot of Filipinos in it, but I, I felt that solidarity knowing that we were an immigrant family, immigrant, working class family. And when I was in [00:39:00] college, when I went to college up in, in Berkeley, um, that was the time when the war on Iraq was waged by the US. I got really I got really curious and interested in understanding why war happens and during that time I, I feel like I, I studied a lot in like ethnic studies classes, Asian American studies classes and also, got involved in like off campus organizing and um, during that time it was with the Filipinos for Global Justice Not War Coalition. I would mobilize in the streets, in the anti-war movement during that time. Um, and from there I met a lot of the folks in the national democratic movement of the Philippines and eventually joined an organization which is now known as Gabriela. And so. That was my first political home that allowed me to understand my family's experience as [00:40:00] immigrants and why it's important to, to advance our rights and defend our, defend our people. And also with what's happening now with the escalated violence on our communities it. It's our duty to help people understand that immigrants are not criminals and our people work really hard to, to provide for our families and that it's our human right to be able to work and live in dignity, uh, just like anyone else. Miata Tan: You are speaking to something really powerful there. The different communities that you've been involved with, within the Filipino diaspora, but who are some other immigrant folks that you feel like have really helped shape your political awakening and, and coming into this space, and also how that leads into your work with Lav Nix today?  Tina Shauf-Bajar: When I was working at the Filipino [00:41:00] community center that gave me a, gave me a chance to learn to work with other organizations that were also advancing, like workers' rights and immigrant rights. Many centers in San Francisco that, um, work with immigrant workers who. Wouldn't typically like fall into the category of union unionized workers. They were like workers who are work in the domestic work industry who are caregivers, house cleaners and also we worked with organizations that also have organized restaurant workers, hotel workers. In like non-union, in a non-union setting. And so to me I in integrating in community like that, it helped me really understand that there were many workers who were experiencing exploitation at really high levels. And that reregulate like regulation of, um, Lavor laws and things like that, it's like really. [00:42:00] Unregulated industries that really set up immigrant workers in, in really poor working conditions. Sometimes abusive conditions and also experiencing wage theft. And for me, that really moved me and in my work with Gabriela and the community and the Filipino Community Center, we were able to work with, um. Teachers who actually were trafficked from the Philippines. These teachers actually, they did everything right to try to get to the, the US to get teaching jobs. And then they ended up really paying exorbitant amount of, of money to like just get processed and make it to the us. To only find themselves in no teaching jobs and then also working domestic work jobs just to like survive. And so during that time, it really like raised my consciousness to understand that there was something bigger that wa that was happening. The, [00:43:00] the export of our people and exploitation of our people was happening, not just at a small scale, but I learned over time that. Thousands of Filipinos actually leave the Philippines every day just to find work and send money back to their families. And to me that just was like throughout my time being an activist and organizer it was important to me to like continue to, to like advance poor, working class power. And that I see that as a through line between many communities. And I know that like with my work in Lav Nix that the folks who experience it the most and who are most impacted by right-wing attacks and authoritarianism are people who are at the fringes. And born working class trans and queer people. Within our [00:44:00] sector. So yeah. Being rooted in this, in this principle of advancing foreign working class power is really core to my to my values in any work that I do. Miata Tan: What are some other key issue Areas you see that are facing this community and especially queer folks within Asian American communities today? Tina Shauf-Bajar: The administration that we're under right now works really hard to drive wedges between. All of us and, um, sewing division is one of the t tactics to continue to hoard power. And with Lavender Phoenix being a trans and queer API organization that's building power, it's important for us to understand that solidarity is a thing that that's gonna strengthen us. That that trans and queer folks are used as wedges in, in [00:45:00] conservative thinking. I'm not saying that like it's just conservatives, but there's conservative thinking in many of our cultures to think that trans and queer folks are not, are not human, and that we deserve less and we don't deserve to be recognized as. As fully human and deserve to live dignified lives in our full selves. I also know that locally in San Francisco, the API community is used as a wedge to be pitted against other communities. Let's say the black commun the black community. And, um, it's important for us as an organization to recognize that that we, we can position ourselves to like wield more solidarity and be in solidarity with, with communities that are experiencing the impacts of a system that continues to exploit our people and [00:46:00] continues to view our people as not fully deserving. Not fully human and that our people deserve to be detained, abducted, and deported. That our people deserve to not be taken care of and resourced and not have our basic needs like housing and food and healthcare and it impacts all of us. And so, I see our responsibility as Lavender Phoenix, and, and in the other organizing spaces that I'm a part of that it, it is our responsibility to expose that we are not each other's enemies. Hmm. And that we are stronger in fighting for our needs and our dignity together. Miata Tan: Community. [00:47:00] Community and strength. I'm thinking about what you said in terms of this, the API solidarity alongside queer folks, alongside black and brown folks. Do you have a, perhaps like a nice memory of that, that coming together? Tina Shauf-Bajar: So one of the most consistent, things that I would go to, that's, that Lavender Phoenix would, would lead year after year in the last 10 years is Trans March. And my partner and I always make sure that we mobilize out there and be with Laxs. And it's important to us to be out there. in more recent trans marches. Just with a lot of the escalation of violence in Gaza and ongoing genocide and also just the escalated attacks on on immigrants and increased right and increased ice raids. [00:48:00] And and also the, we can't forget the police, the Police killings of black people. And I feel like at Trans March with Lavender Phoenix, it's also a way for us to come together and you know, put those messages out there and show that we are standing with all these different communities that are fighting, repression, And it's always so joyful at Trans March too. We're like chanting and we're holding up our signs. We're also out there with or you know, people, individuals, and organizations that might not be politically aligned with us, but that's also a chance for us to be in community and, and show demonstrate this solidarity between communities. Miata Tan: It's so beautiful to see. It's, it's just like what a colorful event in so many ways. Uh, as you now step into the director role at Lav [00:49:00] Nix, Lavender Phoenix, what are you most excited about? What is 2026 gonna look like for you? Tina Shauf-Bajar: I am most excited about integrating into this organization fully as the executive director and I feel so grateful that this organization is trusting me to lead alongside them. I've had the chance to have conversations with lots of conversations since, since my time onboarding in August through our meetings and also like strategy sessions where I've been able to connect with staff and members and understand what they care about, how they're thinking about. Our our strategy, how we can make our strategy sharper and more coordinated, um, so that we can show up in, in a more unified way, um, not just as an organization, but, but as a part of a larger movement ecosystem that we're a part of [00:50:00] and that we're in solidarity with other organizations in. So I am looking forward to like really embodying that.  it takes a lot of trust for an organization to be like, look, you, you weren't one of our members. You weren't a part of our staff prior to this, but we are trusting you because we've been in community and relationship with you and we have seen you. And so I just feel really grateful for that. Miata Tan: For an organization like Lav Nix, which with such a rich history in, in the Bay Area is there anything from. That history that you are now taking into 2026 with you? Tina Shauf-Bajar: Yeah, I mean, I think in seeing how Lavender Phoenix has transformed over the last 10 years is really not being afraid to transform. Not being afraid to step even more fully into [00:51:00] our power. The organization is really well positioned to yeah, well positioned to build power in, in a larger community. And so I, I feel like I've seen that transformation and I get to also, I get to also continue that legacy after UN and also the previous leaders before that and previous members and staff, um, we stand on the, on their shoulders. I stand on their shoulders. it's so beautiful, like such a nice image. Everyone together, yeah, no, totally. I mean, just in the last few weeks, I, I've connected with the three executive directors before me. And so when I say. I stand on their shoulders and like I'm a part of this lineage I still have access to. And then I've also been able to connect with, you know with a movement elder just last week where I was like, wow, you know, I get [00:52:00] to be a part of this because I'm now the executive director of this organization. Like, I also get to inherit. Those connections and I get to inherit the work that has been done up to this point. And I feel really grateful and fortunate to be inheriting that and now being asked to take care of it so. and I know I'm not alone. I think that's what people keep saying. It's like, you're not, you know, you're not alone. Right. I'm like, yeah. I keep telling myself that. It's true. It's true, it's true. Miata Tan: Latinx has a strong core team and a whole range of volunteers that also aid in, in, in your work, and I'm sure everyone will, everyone will be there to make sure that you don't like the, the, the shoulders are stable that you're standing on. Tina Shauf-Bajar: Totally, totally. I mean, even the conversations that I've been a part of, I'm like, I'm the newest one here. Like, I wanna hear from you, [00:53:00] like, what, how are you thinking about this? There is so much desire to see change and be a part of it. And also so much brilliance like and experience to being a part of this organization. So yeah, absolutely. I'm not alone. Miata Tan: One final question as with youth really being at the center of, of Lav Nix's work. Is there something about that that you're excited just, just to get into next year and, and thinking about those, those young people today that are you know, maybe not quite sure what's going on, the world looks a little scary. Like what, what can, what are you excited about in terms of helping those, those folks? Tina Shauf-Bajar: Well, for a long time I, I worked with youth years ago before I before I found myself in like workers justice and workers' rights building working class power. I also worked with working class [00:54:00] youth at one point, and I, I was one of those youth like 20 years ago. And so, I know what my energy was like during that time. I also know how I also remember how idealistic I was and I remember how bright-eyed it was. And like really just there wasn't openness to learn and understand how I could also be an agent of change and that I didn't have to do that alone. That I could be a part of something bigger than myself. And so so yeah, I think that like wielding the power of the youth in our communities and the different sectors is I think in a lot of ways they're the ones leaving us, they know, they know what issues speak to, to them. This is also the world they're inheriting. they have the energy to be able to like and lived experience to be able to like, see through change in their lifetime. And you know, I'm, [00:55:00] I'm older than them. I'm older than a lot of them, but, I also can remember, like I, I can look back to that time and I know, I know that I had the energy to be able to like, you know, organize and build movement and, and really see myself as, as a, as someone who could be a part of that. My first week here in, in August I actually was able to, to meet the, the, um, summer organizer, the summer organizers from our program. And I was, it just warms my heart because I remember being that young and I remember, remember being that like determined to like figure out like, what is my place in, in organizing spaces. So they were the ones who really like, radically welcomed me at first. You know, like I came into the office and like we were co-working and they were the ones who radically welcomed me and like showed me how they show up in, in, um, [00:56:00] Lav Nix Spaces. I learned from them how to fundraise, like how Lavender Phoenix does it, how we fundraise. And um, one of them fundraised me and I was like, I was like, how can I say no? Like they yeah. That we need that type of energy to keep it fresh. Miata Tan: something about that that, um. It is exciting to think about when thinking about the future. Thank you so much for joining us, Tina. This was such a beautiful conversation. I'm so excited for all of your work. Tina Shauf-Bajar: Thank you so much.  Miata Tan: That was Tina Shauf-Bajar, the incoming executive director at Lavender Phoenix. You can learn more about the organization and their fantastic work at LavenderPhoenix.org. We thank all of you listeners out there, and in the words of Keiko Fukuda, a Japanese American judoka and Bay Area legend, “be strong, be [00:57:00] gentle, be beautiful”. A little reminder for these trying times. For show notes, please check our website at kpfa.org/program/APEX-express. APEX Express is a collective of activists that includes Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight's show was produced by me, Miata Tan. Get some rest y'all. Good night. The post APEX Express – 12.25.25 -A Conversation with Lavender Phoenix: The Next Chapter appeared first on KPFA.

Alice Wong was a major force in disability activism. She passed away last month at the age of 51. For Here and Now, reporter Elissa Nadworny speaks with Yomi Young about Wong's impact as a fellow activist, and what she leaves behind as a friend.Subscribe to Here and Now, wherever you get your podcasts.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Nesta segunda parte do podcast “A Beleza das Pequenas Coisas”, a consultora, oradora e criadora do projeto digital “Espécie Rara Sobre Rodas”, Catarina Oliveira reflete sobre o atual cenário político no país e os desafios na área da inclusão e diversidade perante as alterações geopolíticas mundiais. De que forma o trabalho de uma ativista pode influenciar políticas de inclusão? As propostas legislativas em torno da inclusão deveriam centrar-se onde neste momento? Catarina responde, e sem tabus fala também de amor, de sexualidade, e dos novos desafios da maternidade. E ainda revela as músicas que a acompanham, lê um excerto de um texto de Alice Wong e deixa algumas sugestões culturais. E, no final, deixa uma mensagem só para as pessoas que escutarem este episódio até ao fim. Boas escutas! Excerto lido de: Alice Wong, Disability Visibility: First-Person Stories from the Twenty-first Century Um livro: "Mama Car" de Lucy Catchpole (Autor), Karen George (Ilustrador) Uma Série: "As Mães dos Pinguins" Escolhas musicais: O Rappa - "Pescador de Ilusões" Djamal - "Abram Espaço" Rosalía - "Magnolias" Marisa Monte - "Ainda Bem"See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This episode honors the life and legacy of Alice Wong (Mar 27, 1974-Nov 14, 2025). We start the show with the Making Contact segment she produced in 2015, exploring the complex relationships between caregivers and care receivers: the vast majority of care recipients are exclusively receiving unpaid care from a family member, friend, or neighbor. The rest receive a combination of family care and paid assistance, or exclusively paid formal care. Whether you're a paid home care provider, or rely on personal assistance to meet your daily needs, or a family member caring for a loved one, the nature of the working relationship depends on mutual respect and dignity. The segment includes a conversation with Patty Berne, co-founder of Sins Invalid, who passed away in May 2025. The show continues with an excerpt from Wong's powerful essay, [Diversifying Radio with Disabled Voices](https://focmedia.org/2016/04/diversifying-radio-with-disabled-voices/), which is a powerful call for better inclusion and representation of disabled voices in audio journalism. The episode closes with Alice's reading of Laura Hershey's 1991 poem You Get Proud by Practicing. Featuring: Camille Christian, home care provider and SEIU member Brenda Jackson, home care provider and SEIU member Patty Berne, co-founder and director, Sins Invalid Jessica Lehman, executive director, San Francisco Senior and Disability Action Kenzi Robi, president, San Francisco IHSS (In Home Supportive Services) Public Authority Governing Body Rachel Stewart, queer disabled woman passionate about disability and employment issues Alana Theriault, disability benefits counselor in Berkeley, California Ingrid Tischer, director of development, Disability Rights Education & Defense Fund (DREDF) Episode Credits: Host: Jessica Partnow and Laura Flynn Segment Producer: Alice Wong Executive Director: Jina Chung Engineer: Jeff Emtman  Digital Media Marketing: Lissa Deonarain Music: Dexter Britain: The Time To Run (Finale),  Gillicuddy: Adventure, Darling,  Steve Combs: March,  Jason Shaw: Running Waters,  Jared C. Balogh: BRICK BY BRICK DAY BY DAY,  Jared C. Balogh: INCREMENTS TOWARDS SERENITY,  Nheap: Crossings,  Cherly KaCherly: The Hungry Garden,  Trio Metrik: Vogelperspektive,  Kevin MacLeod: Faster Does It Learn More:  Diversifying Radio with Disabled Voices, by Alice Wong | You Get Proud by Practicing, by Laura Hershey | Year of the Tiger: An Activist's Life, by Alice Wong | UCSF: UCSF Study Projects Need for 2.5M More Long-Term Care Workers by 2030 | SEIU: Longterm Care Workers | Disability Rights Education & Defense Fund | Disability Visibility Project | Hand in Hand: The Domestic Employers Network | National Disability Leadership Alliance | Senior and Disability Action | Sins Invalid | San Francisco In Home Supportive Services Public Authority | Family Caregiver Alliance Making Contact is an award-winning, nationally syndicated radio show and podcast featuring narrative storytelling and thought-provoking interviews. We cover the most urgent issues of our time and the people on the ground building a more just world.

On this episode of Women on the Line, we're honoring the late disabled writer and activist, Alice Wong, who passed away on the 14 November 2025 at the age of 51. We're listening to her presentation titled ‘The Last Disabled Oracle' from 2020, where she speaks from the future of 2029. The presentation was delivered as part of Alex Kelly's Assembly for the Future. You can listen to the full presentation on 3CR here. You can learn more about Alice's work via The Disability Visibility Project. 

During World War I, fighter planes called Sopwith Camels downed 1,294 enemy aircraft, more than any other Allied fighter in WWI. For those familiar with the Peanuts comics, it's the name of the doghouse that Snoopy flies in his fantasy sequences as a Flying Ace, a brave WWI pilot battling the Red Barron. The Smithsonian's Air and Space Museum in Washington, D.C. has one on view. Here & Now's Scott Tong visits the museum to check it out. And, Yomi Young, a friend of disability activist and author Alice Wong, tells us about Wong's legacy of building community. Wong died earlier this month at 51Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

...we are not allowed to hate back. Does whiteness make room for love? Does it have the capacity to do so? I think Aileen Wuornos may have been onto something... This episode is dedicated to the legacies of Jamil Al-Amin and Alice Wong. Rest in Power **Editors Note before some of yall start: yes, I know that Valerie is a cover by a white British group before Amy did it and they was appropriating too so my point still stands -UN Resolution 3379: https://www.ebsco.com/research-starters/history/un-resolution-denounces-zionism (Spoiler: it was revoked) Apply to join Sex Ed as Resistance, application closes 12/3!: https://ihartericka.com/sex-ed-as-resistance/ If you liked what you heard and want this fully indie listener supported, ad-free g-thang to continue, please consider becoming a patron: www.patreon.com/ihartericka or via Venmo: @Ericka-Hart, Paypal: ericka@ihartericka.com. Be sure to like, subscribe and share with your networks here and on Youtube: www.youtube.com/@ihartericka

How does a traumatic brain injury affect the way you cook and eat? Filmmaker Cheryl Green, who has a brain injury, satirizes her own experiences in the kitchen in a short video called “Cooking With Brain Injury.” This week Dan talks with Cheryl about what it means to live with an invisible disability, how it affects her cooking, and why asking for help can be a beautiful thing. Plus, Cheryl records herself making a meal.Watch “Cooking With Brain Injury” with audio description or without. Cheryl is the co-founder of POD Access, whose mission is to support deaf and disabled podcasters. Her podcast Pigeonhole includes an episode about recording herself for The Sporkful and talking about the activist Alice Wong.This episode originally aired on April 5, 2021, and was edited by Tracey Samuelson. The Sporkful team now includes Dan Pashman, Emma Morgenstern, Andres O'Hara, Kameel Stanley, Jared O'Connell, Morgan Johnson, and Jazzmin Sutherland.Right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. Get all your favorite podcasts, more than 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, and live sports coverage with the SiriusXM app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Disabillity rights advocate Alice Wong passed this month at the age of 51.  On this episode, we speak with Yomi S Young, writer, disability rights advocate, and former Executive Director of the Center for Independent Living, founded in Berkeley, CA on her legacy. Our Resistance in Residence Artist this week is Ryan Nicole —a Grammy-nominated musician, educator, playwright, and community advocate—whose work seamlessly blends art and activism. — Subscribe to this podcast: https://plinkhq.com/i/1637968343?to=page Get in touch: lawanddisorder@kpfa.org Follow us on socials @LawAndDis: https://twitter.com/LawAndDis; https://www.instagram.com/lawanddis/   The post Remembering Alice Wong w/ Yomi S. Young appeared first on KPFA.

This week, in an extended news episode, Madigan brings you the latest in regards to the emails now released under the Epstein Files Transparency Act, the US Coast Guards new policy on hate symbols, Trump calling a group of Democrats seditious and calling for their execution, and lastly, the news of the death of a legendary disabled activist, Alice Wong. Do you have a topic that you want the show to take on?    Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠neighborhoodfeminist@gmail.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Social media:     Instagram: @angryneighborhoodfeminist Get YANF Merch! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://yanfpodcast.threadless.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ JOIN ME ON PATREON!! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/angryneighborhoodfeminist⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sources: https://vault.fbi.gov/jeffrey-epstein https://oversightdemocrats.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/democrats-oversight.house.gov/files/evo-media-document/packet_redacted_noid.pdf https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-blowing-bubba-message-epstein-emails-under-scrutiny-11046836 https://people.com/jeffrey-epstein-brother-apologizes-bill-clinton-being-confused-as-bubba-11851685 https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/mike-johnson-railed-against-epstein-142307038.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/19/us/politics/trump-epstein-files-loopholes.html https://oversightdemocrats.house.gov/news/press-releases/house-oversight-committee-releases-jeffrey-epstein-email-correspondence-raising https://truthout.org/articles/swastikas-and-nooses-are-no-longer-hate-symbols-under-new-coast-guard-rules/ https://www.newsweek.com/coast-guard-hate-symbol-noose-swastika-trump-admin-11083066 https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-says-democrats-who-told-us-military-refuse-illegal-orders-deserve-death-2025-11-20/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“Wicked: For Good” is out in theatres! The film is loosely based on the classic 1995 novel “Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West” by Gregory Maguire.  Host Jacob Shymanski and avid audiobook reader Karoline Bourdeau dive into a Wayback Playback with their honest review of the book.  In the latter portion of the show, senior producer Andrika De Lanerolle shares the Book Report featuring news about author Alice Wong and the 2025 Giller Prize winner.  Audiobook Café is broadcast on AMI-audio in Canada and publishes two new podcast episodes a week on Saturdays and Sundays.Follow Audiobook Café on Instagram @AMIAudiobookCafe We want your feedback!Be that comments, suggestions, hot-takes, audiobook recommendations or reviews of your own… hit us up! Our email address is: AudiobookCafe@ami.ca About AMIAMI is a media company that entertains, informs and empowers Canadians with disabilities through three broadcast services — AMI-tv and AMI-audio in English and AMI-télé in French — and streaming platform AMI+. Our vision is to establish AMI as a leader in the offering of accessible content, providing a voice for Canadians with disabilities through authentic storytelling, representation and positive portrayal. To learn more visit AMI.ca and AMItele.ca.Find more great AMI Original Content on AMI+Learn more at AMI.caConnect with Accessible Media Inc. online:X /Twitter @AccessibleMediaInstagram @AccessibleMediaInc / @AMI-audioFacebook at @AccessibleMediaIncTikTok @AccessibleMediaInc Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Alice Wong, a disability rights activist, writer, and MacArthur Genius award winner based in San Francisco, died last Friday at UCSF at the age of 51. Wong was best known as the founder of the Disability Visibility Project (DVP), a group that highlights disabled people and disability culture through storytelling projects, social media and other channels. Alice's friend and fellow activist, Sandy Ho, wrote, “Alice Wong was a hysterical friend, writer, activist and disability justice luminary whose influence was outsized.” Today, we remember Wong by sharing a radio essay she recorded for The California Report Magazine in December 2022. Alice's GoFundMe Disability Rights Activist and Author Alice Wong Dies at 51 | KQED Bay Area Legends: Activist Alice Wong and The Power of Bringing Visibility to Disability Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Send us a textA quick life update.Learn about Alice Wong: https://x.com/doctor_zeest/status/1991929577841868847?s=20Support the showSubscribe for free written summaries of each episode, resources, and more. LongCovidMD.substack.com/subscribe Support by donating at BuyMeACoffee

In episode 1967, Jack and Miles are joined by comedian, Zahra Noorbakhsh, to discuss… Insurance Lawyer Lady F**ked Up Big Time? Being Epstein’s “Wingman” Isn’t Helping Larry Summers’ Career, Billionaire Out Here Telling Us How To Make Life Better, This Warner Bros. Discovery Sale Is A Disaster In The Making and more! Disability rights activist and author Alice Wong dies at 51 Judge says possible errors by Lindsey Halligan could imperil Comey case Lindsey Halligan says full grand jury never saw final indictment it handed up against Comey Harvard professor cozied up to his 'wingman' Epstein to get sex tips, emails reveal Larry Summers resigns from OpenAI board as scrutiny over Jeffrey Epstein emails intensifies New York Times cuts ties with Larry Summers over Epstein emails How Could Larry Summers Be So Stupid? Larry Summers began his class yesterday by expressing the shame he feels over his past involvement with Jeffery Epstein VIDEO: Harvard Student Records Larry Summers Addressing Epstein Link Before Class Harvard to investigate Larry Summers’s Epstein ties as he exits OpenAI board Billionaire Out Here Telling Us How To Make Life Better Warner Bros. Discovery Bids Are Due This Week. How Do Paramount, Netflix, Comcast Stack Up? As Warner Bros Goes Up for Sale, Where Would Hollywood Be Without the Iconic Studio? Warner Bros. Discovery officially hangs a ‘for sale’ sign around company Who Will Win Hollywood’s Big Prize? Netflix stock falls amid scrutiny of potential Warner Bros. Discovery bid Paramount Skydance prepares $71bn bid for Warner Bros Discovery: Report Senators Ask DOJ for “Non-Biased” Review of Any Deal for Warner Bros. Discovery Amid “Cloud of Political Favoritism and Corruption” (Exclusive) Trump Throws Support Behind Paramount’s Warner Bros. Discovery Bid | Report Bari Weiss named editor-in-chief of CBS News under Free Press-Paramount deal Warner Bros.’ Sale Is a ‘Red Alert’ Moment for Theaters LISTEN: Earthshaker by PhantogramSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

After Alice's passing late last week, we wanted to reshare Qudsiya's conversation with her. Alice Wong was a disabled activist, author and podcaster behind “Disability Visibility,” and the first person Qudsiya reached out to for advice on podcasting.In their conversation, Alice tells Qudsiya what she's learned about the visibility of the disabled experience in media and culture, and her desire to contribute to those narratives by telling her own story. They also discuss the need for more financial support for disabled creatives, as well as better representation in journalism and other media.Visit our website⁠ ⁠for⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ transcripts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠-- Subscribe to Qudsiya's Substack, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Getting Down To It⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Support the team behind the podcast ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠with a donation⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Let us know what you think with a comment or review on⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple podcasts.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

San Francisco disability justice activist, writer, and MacArthur ‘Genius' Grant recipient, Alice Wong, died last week at the age of 51. We honor her and her lasting impact with this tribute. 

The work of disability advocacy just lost one of its strongest voices. Today, we remember Alice Wong. Then, we'll hear a story about navigating the pain and stigma of losing loved ones to suicide.

On today's show we honor a late Oakland artist who produced the documentary about the history of Sigma Gamma Rho sorority. And we salute the late disability rights activist Alice Wong. Then, singer Diana Gameros talks about giving people hope through her new album. Finally, actor Rainn Wilson, from "The Office" talks about coming to FAN EXPO San Francisco.

We pay tribute to US writer and community-builder Alice Wong who died this week at 51. Known for her Disability Visibility project and #CripTheVote, we hear from her friend Nichola Griffith who collaborated with her on a writing project called #CripLit. She never actualy met her offline yet they made a big connection. If you didn't know of her in life, here's your chance for her to inspire you with the spirit she created.Journalist Alex Taylor fell foul of a TikTok prank when someone stuck out their tongue at him to get a reaction. He then chased them in his powerchair to try and delete the video before it got online. He believes he was targeted because he was disabled.Also, presenter Emma Tracey shoots the breeze about gyms, exercise and talks to award-winning podcaster Grace Gigi Ogun, who makes the funny rich audio podcast Journeys With Grace about living with kidney cancer, and has a talent for football and music. Presenter/producer Emma Tracey, mixed by Dave O'Neill, produced by Kevin Satizabal Carrascal, Alex Collins, series producer Beth Rose, editor Damon Rose. Email: accessall@bbc.co.uk with your thoughts and questions. And say "Ask the BBC for Access All" to your smart speaker and subscribe to us on BBC Sounds. We're here every week.

Acknowledgement of Country// Headlines:israel continues assault on Gaza, the West Bank, and LebanonEscalating famine and RSF attacks across Kordofan provinceUrgent demand to halt rocket testing on Googatha CountryLegal Aid Northern Territory cuts support for adults and children as young as 10Mass coral death revealed at Ningaloo Reef Writer, artist, and 3CR's Disability Day coordinator Pauline Vetuna shared some reflections on the work of disabled oracles in transforming the world in the wake of the recent passing of revolutionary disability activist Alice Wong. Pauline also reflected on the importance of critically attending to how we practice solidarity and community with disability justice at the core, and reminded us about this year's upcoming Disability Day special broadcast on the 3rd of December. Alice Wong was involved in establishing and organising with a myriad of disability justice initiatives, including most prominently the Disability Visibility Project and the Society of Disabled Oracles. Pauline mentioned a talk by Alice Wong as part of Assembly for the Future, broadcast as part of 3CR's 2020 Disability Day - listen to it here.// Fiona York, Executive Officer of Housing for the Aged Action Group, spoke with us about the ways that housing stress manifest for older people in the Victorian rental market, and how this relates both to poverty and to different types of rental tenure. Fiona unpacked the impact of the government's public housing high-rise redevelopment program and how it is already affecting older people living in the flats. Catch Fiona on 3CR's Raise the Roof program every Wednesday from 5:30-6PM, and hear her in conversation with other housing justice advocates in next week's 'From Housing Crisis to Dwelling Justice' event at RMIT University in the city. The podcast image for this week's show is a beautiful piece of art made by Sam Wallman for the event.// We heard a speech by Mai Saif, member of Free Palestine Melbourne, at the community protest held against israeli psytrance duo 'Infected Mushroom' on Monday the 3rd of November outside the Forum Theatre. Free Palestine Melbourne had written a letter to the Marriner Group, who manage and operate the Forum and five other popular venues, expressing their concerns about its decision to host ‘Infected Mushroom', but the Marriner Group ultimately declined requests to cancel the concert.// Liz, a doctor and member of Socialists in Healthcare, joined us to provide some updates on the campaign to Save Cohealth, including about upcoming events this week. During this conversation, Liz and Inez shared breaking news that Cohealth has secured emergency funding from the Albanese Government to allow community health centres at Collingwood, Fitzroy and Kensington to remain open until the 31st of July 2026. The fight is far from over, though, and campaigners are asking that people show up to the following events this week:Healthcare Workers Speakout tomorrow, Friday the 21st of November from 4:30PM opposite the Peter Mac Hospital in Haymarket, andSave Cohealth Fitzroy Protest on Sun the 23rd of November from 1PM, starting outside Cohealth Fitzroy (75 Brunswick Street, Fitzroy), with a march to the Health Minister's Office. Find out more and join the campaign here.// Dr Simon Bradshaw, COP31 Lead at Greenpeace Australia Pacific, joined us live from COP30 in Belém, Brazil with updates from the conference as it reaches its close. While Australia continues to angle for the privilege of hosting COP31, serious questions about climate finance commitments and concrete action on an end to fossil fuels remain unanswered. Simon has been a researcher, writer and campaigner for climate action for over two decades, attending many rounds of international climate negotiations. He was formerly Research Director at Climate-KIc Australia, and a climate specialist with Oxfam.//

Even though the documentary Tig Notaro produced won the Festival Favorite Award at Sundance, she did not spend the festival hobnobbing with industry types. Instead she stayed holed up at the Airbnb she rented with friends and the film's crew. "We were calling it Snuggle Down because we were all sitting around the fire and having tea and just laughing so hard." Among the people at Snuggle Down was the subject of the documentary, poet Andrea Gibson, who was dying of ovarian cancer. In this episode, Tig describes meeting Andrea, what made them click creatively, and how making a documentary about the end of Andrea's life brought an already tight-knit group of friends closer together.  Watch: Come See Me In the Good Light And we also want to acknowledge the passing of disability activist Alice Wong. She died on Friday in San Francisco at age 51. Alice and Anna first talked in 2020.  Listen here: Alice Wong On Ruckuses, Rage And Medicaid Podcast production by Andrew Dunn Death, Sex & Money is now produced by Slate! To support us and our colleagues, please sign up for our membership program, Slate Plus! Members get ad-free podcasts, bonus content on lots of Slate shows, and full access to all the articles on Slate.com. Sign up today at slate.com/dsmplus. And if you're new to the show, welcome. We're so glad you're here. Find us and follow us on Instagram and you can find Anna's newsletter at annasale.substack.com. Our new email address, where you can reach us with voice memos, pep talks, questions, critiques, is deathsexmoney@slate.com. Get 50% Off Monarch Money, the all-in-one financial tool at ⁠www.monarchmoney.com/DSM⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Even though the documentary Tig Notaro produced won the Festival Favorite Award at Sundance, she did not spend the festival hobnobbing with industry types. Instead she stayed holed up at the Airbnb she rented with friends and the film's crew. "We were calling it Snuggle Down because we were all sitting around the fire and having tea and just laughing so hard." Among the people at Snuggle Down was the subject of the documentary, poet Andrea Gibson, who was dying of ovarian cancer. In this episode, Tig describes meeting Andrea, what made them click creatively, and how making a documentary about the end of Andrea's life brought an already tight-knit group of friends closer together.  Watch: Come See Me In the Good Light And we also want to acknowledge the passing of disability activist Alice Wong. She died on Friday in San Francisco at age 51. Alice and Anna first talked in 2020.  Listen here: Alice Wong On Ruckuses, Rage And Medicaid Podcast production by Andrew Dunn Death, Sex & Money is now produced by Slate! To support us and our colleagues, please sign up for our membership program, Slate Plus! Members get ad-free podcasts, bonus content on lots of Slate shows, and full access to all the articles on Slate.com. Sign up today at slate.com/dsmplus. And if you're new to the show, welcome. We're so glad you're here. Find us and follow us on Instagram and you can find Anna's newsletter at annasale.substack.com. Our new email address, where you can reach us with voice memos, pep talks, questions, critiques, is deathsexmoney@slate.com. Get 50% Off Monarch Money, the all-in-one financial tool at ⁠www.monarchmoney.com/DSM⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Even though the documentary Tig Notaro produced won the Festival Favorite Award at Sundance, she did not spend the festival hobnobbing with industry types. Instead she stayed holed up at the Airbnb she rented with friends and the film's crew. "We were calling it Snuggle Down because we were all sitting around the fire and having tea and just laughing so hard." Among the people at Snuggle Down was the subject of the documentary, poet Andrea Gibson, who was dying of ovarian cancer. In this episode, Tig describes meeting Andrea, what made them click creatively, and how making a documentary about the end of Andrea's life brought an already tight-knit group of friends closer together.  Watch: Come See Me In the Good Light And we also want to acknowledge the passing of disability activist Alice Wong. She died on Friday in San Francisco at age 51. Alice and Anna first talked in 2020.  Listen here: Alice Wong On Ruckuses, Rage And Medicaid Podcast production by Andrew Dunn Death, Sex & Money is now produced by Slate! To support us and our colleagues, please sign up for our membership program, Slate Plus! Members get ad-free podcasts, bonus content on lots of Slate shows, and full access to all the articles on Slate.com. Sign up today at slate.com/dsmplus. And if you're new to the show, welcome. We're so glad you're here. Find us and follow us on Instagram and you can find Anna's newsletter at annasale.substack.com. Our new email address, where you can reach us with voice memos, pep talks, questions, critiques, is deathsexmoney@slate.com. Get 50% Off Monarch Money, the all-in-one financial tool at ⁠www.monarchmoney.com/DSM⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Even though the documentary Tig Notaro produced won the Festival Favorite Award at Sundance, she did not spend the festival hobnobbing with industry types. Instead she stayed holed up at the Airbnb she rented with friends and the film's crew. "We were calling it Snuggle Down because we were all sitting around the fire and having tea and just laughing so hard." Among the people at Snuggle Down was the subject of the documentary, poet Andrea Gibson, who was dying of ovarian cancer. In this episode, Tig describes meeting Andrea, what made them click creatively, and how making a documentary about the end of Andrea's life brought an already tight-knit group of friends closer together.  Watch: Come See Me In the Good Light And we also want to acknowledge the passing of disability activist Alice Wong. She died on Friday in San Francisco at age 51. Alice and Anna first talked in 2020.  Listen here: Alice Wong On Ruckuses, Rage And Medicaid Podcast production by Andrew Dunn Death, Sex & Money is now produced by Slate! To support us and our colleagues, please sign up for our membership program, Slate Plus! Members get ad-free podcasts, bonus content on lots of Slate shows, and full access to all the articles on Slate.com. Sign up today at slate.com/dsmplus. And if you're new to the show, welcome. We're so glad you're here. Find us and follow us on Instagram and you can find Anna's newsletter at annasale.substack.com. Our new email address, where you can reach us with voice memos, pep talks, questions, critiques, is deathsexmoney@slate.com. Get 50% Off Monarch Money, the all-in-one financial tool at ⁠www.monarchmoney.com/DSM⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We say goodbye to our friends Alice Wong and Leslie Lee III. Find a slightly longer version including Alice's last appearance on the show here: https://www.patreon.com/posts/143713819 Find Leslie's gofundme here: https://www.gofundme.com/f/lleeiii Find Alice's gofundme here: https://www.gofundme.com/f/alice-wong-stay-in-community Show links: We're testing out a new Bookshop.org page (still under construction), where you can find books by past guests and book recommendations from the hosts. Find it here: bookshop.org/shop/deathpanel Get Health Communism here: bookshop.org/a/118130/9781839765179 Find Tracy's book Abolish Rent here: bookshop.org/a/118130/9798888902523

Pioneering disability justice activist Alice Wong died in San Francisco on  Friday at the age of 51.  We listen back to our January interview with Alice, as  part of our series profiling legends of the Bay Area. We talked with Alice about her joyous approach to life and listened to some favorite interviews recorded with StoryCorps for the  Disability Visibility Project, which she founded. We also gathered fellow disability rights activists who reflected on Alice's impact on them, and on the evolution of the disability justice movement. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Not to go off on a rant here, but.

Stacie Hueter delivers the news on the death of disability rights activist Alice Wong, Trump's increasing pressure on President Nicolas Maduro through increased military operation in Venezuela, and Trump's redirection of federal agents The Department of Homeland Security to primarily address immigration on 11/16/25.

Saying My Age — Conversation With My Brain — Mortal Husk (Canto XIII) — Fell Against The House — A Place For Us, By Us — Argumentative Life — New Hope For Patients With MS and Other Neurological Disorders — My Son's Resolution Shout outs To Rocky, Sandman, Jersey Girl A Place For Us, By Us ‘A Place for Us, By Us': San Francisco's Disability Cultural Center Breaks New Ground KQED Story about a first-in-the-nation disability community center in San Francisco, featuring Deborah Kaplan, Alice Wong, and others. New Hope Crossing the blood-brain barrier Wheelchair Breakdown My son's resolution for a perfect world This Week's Selfie "New Hope For Argumentative Life" Selfie 00:00:11 - Saying My Age 00:01:39 - Conversation With My Brain 00:02:36 - Mortal Husk (Canto XIII) 00:04:44 - Fell Against The House 00:06:40 - Shoutouts 00:07:34 - "A Place For Us, By Us" KQED Story 00:13:07 - Argumentative Life 00:14:47 - New Hope For Patients With MS and Other Neurological Disorders 00:22:10 - My Son's Resolution

Over the course of millions of years, human voices have evolved to hold startling power. These clouds of vibrating air carry crucial information about who we are–and we rely on them to push ourselves up and out into the physical world.This week, we're on a journey to understand how we got our unique sonic fingerprint, the power it affords us, and what happens when it's taken away.Special thanks to Alice Wong, Wren Farrell, Hector Espinal and his parents, Crisaly and Hector Espinal, Mary Croke, Nancy Kielty, Beth McEwen, Robin Feuer Miller, Roomful of Teeth, Amanda Crider, Caroline Shaw, Judd Greenstein, Leilihua Lanzilotti, Rebekka Karijord, and Michael Harrison.EPISODE CREDITS: Reported by -Annie McEwen and Matt KieltyProduced by - Annie McEwen and Matt KieltyOriginal music and sound design contributed by - Jeremy Bloom and Matt Kieltywith mixing help from - Jeremy BloomFact-checking by - Anna Pujol-Mazziniand Edited by  - Alex Neason EPISODE CITATIONS:Books - Disability Intimacy by Alice WongYear of the Tiger by Alice WongThis is the Voice by John ColapintoWebsites -DisabilityVisibilityProject.comSign up for our newsletter! It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up (https://radiolab.org/newsletter)!Radiolab is supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab (https://members.radiolab.org/) today.Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @radiolab, and share your thoughts with us by emailing radiolab@wnyc.org.Leadership support for Radiolab's science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

You are listening to Burnt Toast!Today, my guest is Jessica Slice, a disabled mom and author of the brilliant new book, Unfit Parent: A Disabled Mother Challenges an Inaccessible World.Jessica is also the co-author of Dateable: Swiping Right, Hooking Up, and Settling Down While Chronically Ill and Disabled, and This Is How We Play: A Celebration of Disability and Adaptation, as well as the forthcoming This Is How We Talk and We Belong. She has been published in The New York Times, The Washington Post, Alice Wong's bestselling Disability Visibility and more.As Jessica puts it, she originally wrote this book for disabled parents because their stories are not told or centered. But Jessica soon realized she was writing a book for all parents, because becoming a parent is its own kind of experience with disability.There are so many important intersections between disability, justice and fat liberation. One that I think about a lot is how both groups come up against the question: Don't we owe it to our kids to be healthy? Jessica's perspective on these issues is expansive, inclusive and enlightening. I know you will get so much out of this conversation and from reading unfit parent.You can take 10 percent off Unfit Parent, or any book we talk about on the podcast, if you order it from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, along with a copy of Fat Talk! (This also applies if you've previously bought Fat Talk from them. Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)PS. If you enjoy today's conversation, please tap the heart on this post — likes are one of the biggest drivers of traffic from Substack's Notes, so that's a super easy, free way to support the show!Follow Jessica: Jessicaslice.com. I'm on Instagram @JessicaSlice, I have a Substack where I send monthly notes about Disabled Parenting, and then usually try to get people to read whatever poem I'm fixated on that month.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe

Ryan J. Haddad is an actor and playwright whose work across theater and television consistently challenges outdated narratives around disability, queerness and identity. He made a striking Off-Broadway playwriting debut with “Dark Disabled Stories” at The Public Theater, which enjoyed a sold-out, extended run and earned him the Obie Award for Best New American Play. His autobiographical solo show “Hi, Are You Single?” has become a defining part of his artistic voice, touring nationally and earning critical acclaim. Ryan's television credits include memorable appearances on Hulu's “A Murder at the End of the World” and Netflix's “The Politician.”In addition to performing, Haddad is a dedicated writer and access advocate. His essays have appeared in The New York Times and Out Magazine, and he is a contributor to the anthology “Disability Intimacy,” curated by Alice Wong. His creative work and activism have earned him a Drama Desk Award, a Paula Vogel Playwriting Award from Vineyard Theatre and a Disability Futures Fellowship. He is also a proud alum of the Public Theater's Emerging Writers Group.In this interview, conducted just a few days before he premiered his latest solo piece, “Hold Me in the Water,” at Playwrights Horizons in New York City, Ryan reflects on the pivotal experiences that shaped his journey as an artist, from performing fairy tales in his childhood living room to commanding major stages and screens. He speaks candidly about navigating the entertainment industry as a gay man with cerebral palsy, building a career on his own terms and advocating for authentic representation and accessibility in the arts.https://www.ryanjhaddad.com/https://www.playwrightshorizons.org/about/production-history/2020s/2425-season/hold-me-in-the-water

Today we're talking about the reality of parenting while disabled. My guest is Jessica Slice, the author of the new book Unfit Parent: A Disabled Mother Challenges an Inaccessible World. A writer, advocate, and disabled mother who challenges the way society defines “fit” parenting, Jessica's work has appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, and Disability Visibility.  In this episode, Jessica opens up about the unique challenges disabled parents face, from the obstacles within the process of becoming parents to navigating a world that often feels inaccessible. We also talk about how disabled parents are often excluded from mainstream parenting conversations and why they face heightened scrutiny from Child Protective Services. Jessica shares her powerful perspective on creative adaptation — a mindset that empowers disabled parents to create a parenting approach that works for them, rather than trying to conform to systems that weren't built with their needs in mind. Whether you're a disabled parent, raising a disabled child, or just wanting to learn how to be a more informed and supportive ally, this episode is filled with Jessica's honest insights and practical wisdom that challenge outdated ideas of what makes a “good” parent.   About Jessica Slice Jessica Slice is a disabled mom and author of Unfit Parent: A Disabled Mother Challenges an Inaccessible World. She is also the co-author of Dateable: Swiping Right, Hooking Up, and Settling Down and This is How We Play, as well as the forthcoming This is How We Talk and We Belong, which was co-authored with the late Judy Heumann. She has been published in Modern Love, the New York Times, the Washington Post, Alice Wong's bestselling Disability Visibility, Glamour, Cosmopolitan, and more. She lives in Toronto with her family.   Things you'll learn from this episode Why disabled parents are not often part of the mainstream parenting conversations What are the challenges that disabled parents face when they're starting the process of becoming parents Why disabled parents face more threats from Child Protective Services, and why demanding that someone parent without help can be considered discriminatory How being disabled prepares potential parents for the parenting journey What creative adaptation is and how it can give disabled parents the freedom to build their life from scratch How non-disabled parents can support the disabled parents in their communities   Resources mentioned Unfit Parent: A Disabled Mother Challenges an Inaccessible World by Jessica Slice Jessica Slice's website Jessica Slice writes about disability, parenting, and poems Jessica on Instagram Demystifying Disability: What to Know, What to Say, and How to be an Ally by Emily Ladau Emily Ladau on Demystifying Disability: What to Know, What to Say, and How to be an Ally (Tilt Parenting Podcast) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dr. Cathery Yeh, Supporting Neurodiverse Students in Elementary Mathematics Classrooms ROUNDING UP: SEASON 3 | EPISODE 14 What meaning does the term neurodiverse convey and how might it impact a student's learning experience?  And how can educators think about the work of designing environments and experiences that support neurodiverse students learning mathematics?  In this episode, we discuss these questions with Dr. Cathery Yeh, a professor in STEM education from the University of Texas at Austin.  BIOGRAPHY Dr. Cathery Yeh is an assistant professor in STEM education and a core faculty member in the Center for Asian American Studies from the University of Texas at Austin. Her research examines the intersections of race, language, and disability to provide a nuanced analysis of the constructions of ability in mathematics classrooms and education systems. TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: What meaning does the term neurodiverse convey and how might that language impact a student's learning experience? In this episode, we'll explore those questions. And we'll think about ways that educators can design learning environments that support all of their students. Joining us for this conversation is Dr. Cathery Yeh, a professor in STEM education from the University of Texas at Austin.  Welcome to the podcast, Cathery. It's really exciting to have you with us today. Cathery Yeh: Thank you, Mike. Honored to be invited. Mike: So, I wonder if we can start by offering listeners a common understanding of language that we'll use from time to time throughout the episode. How do you think about the meaning of neurodiversity? Cathery: Thank you for this thoughtful question. Language matters a lot. For me, neurodiversity refers to the natural variation in our human brains and our neurocognition, challenging this idea that there's a normal brain. I always think of… In Texas, we just had a snow day two days ago. And I think of, just as, there's no two snowflakes that are the same, there's no two brains that are exactly the same, too. I also think of its meaning from a personal perspective. I am not a special educator. I was a bilingual teacher and taught in inclusive settings. And my first exposure to the meaning of neurodiversity came from my own child, who—she openly blogs about it—as a Chinese-American girl, it was actually really hard for her to be diagnosed. Asian Americans, 1 out of 10 are diagnosed—that's the lowest of any ethnic racial group. And I'll often think about when… She's proud of her disabled identity. It is who she is. But what she noticed that when she tells people about her disabled identity, what do you think is the first thing people say when she says, “I'm neurodivergent. I have ADHD. I have autism.” What do you think folks usually say to her? The most common response? Mike: I'm going to guess that they express some level of surprise, and it might be associated with her ethnic background or racial identity. Cathery: She doesn't get that as much. The first thing people say is, they apologize to her. They say, “I'm sorry.” Mike: Wow. Cathery: And that happens quite a lot. And I say that because–and then I connected back to the term neurodiversity—because I think it's important to know its origins. It came about by Judy Singer. She's a sociologist. And about 30 years ago, she coined the term neurodiversity as an opposition to the medical model of understanding people and human difference as deficits. And her understanding is that difference is beautiful. All of us think and learn and process differently, and that's part of human diversity. So that original definition of neurodiversity was tied to the autism rights movement. But now, when we think about the term, it's expanded to include folks with ADHD, dyslexia, dyscalculia, mental health, conditions like depression, anxiety, and other neuro minorities like Tourette syndrome, and even memory loss. I wanted to name out all these things because sometimes we're looking for a really clean definition, and definitions are messy. There's a personal one. There's a societal one of how we position neurodiversity as something that's deficit, that needs to be fixed. But it's part of who one is. But it's also socially constructed. Because how do you decide when a difference becomes a difference that counts where you qualify as being neurodiverse, right? So, I think there's a lot to consider around that. Mike: You know, the answer that you shared is really a good segue because the question I was going to ask you involves something that I suspect you hear quite often is people asking you, “What are the best ways that I can support my neurodiverse students?” And it occurs to me that part of the challenge of that question is it assumes that there's this narrow range of things that you do for this narrow range of students who are different. The way that you just talked about the meaning of neurodiversity probably means that you have a different kind of answer to that question when people ask it. Cathery: I do get this question quite a lot. People email it to me, or they'll ask me. That's usually the first thing people ask. I think my response kind of matches my pink hair question. When they ask me the question, I often ask a question back. And I go, “How would you best educate Chinese children in math?” And they're like, “Why would you ask that?” The underlining assumption is that all Chinese children are the same, and they learn the same ways, they have the same needs, and also that their needs are different than the research-based equity math practices we know and have done 50–60 years of research that we've highlighted our effective teaching practices for all children. We've been part of NCTM for 20 years. We know that tasks that promote reasoning and problem solving have been effectively shown to be good for all. Using a connecting math representation—across math representations in a lesson—is good for all. Multimodal math discourse, not just verbal, written, but embodied in part who we are and, in building on student thinking, and all those things we know. And those are often the recommendations we should ask. But I think an important question is how often are our questions connecting to that instead? How often are we seeing that we assume that certain students cannot engage in these practices? And I think that's something we should prioritize more. I'm not saying that there are not specific struggles or difficulties that the neurodiversity umbrella includes, which includes ADHD, dyslexia, autism, bipolar disorder, on and on, so many things. I'm not saying that they don't experience difficulties in our school environment, but it's also understanding that if you know one neurodiverse student—you know me or my child—you only know one. That's all you know. And by assuming we're all the same, it ignores the other social identities and lived experiences that students have that impact their learning.  So, I'm going to ask you a question. Mike: Fire away. Cathery: OK. What comes to your mind when you hear the term “neurodiverse student”? What does that student look like, sound like, appear like to you? Mike: I think that's a really great question. There's a version of me not long ago that would have thought of that student as someone who's been categorized as special education, receiving special education services, perhaps a student that has ADHD. I might've used language like “students who have sensory needs or processing.” And I think as I hear myself say some of those things that I would've previously said, what jumps out is two things: One is I'm painting with a really broad brush as opposed to looking at the individual student and the things that they need. And two is the extent to which painting with a broad brush or trying to find a bucket of strategies that's for a particular group of students, that that really limits my thinking around what they can do or all the brilliance that they may have inside them. Cathery: Thank you for sharing that because that's a reflection I often do. I think about when I learned about my child, I learned about myself. How I automatically went to a deficit lens of like, “Oh, no, how are we going to function in the world? How's she going to function in the world?” But I also do this prompt quite a lot with teachers and others, and I ask them to draw it. When you draw someone, what do you see? And I'll be honest, kind of like drawing a scientist, we often draw Albert Einstein. When I ask folks to draw what a neurodiverse student looks like, they're predominantly white boys, to be honest with you. And I want to name that out. It's because students of color, especially black, brown, native students—they're disproportionately over- and under-identified as disabled in our schooling. Like we think about this idea that when most of us associate autism or ADHD mainly as part of the neurodiversity branch and as entirely within as white boys, which often happens with many of the teachers that I talk to and parents. We see them as needing services, but in contrast, when we think about, particularly our students of color and our boys—these young men—there's often a contrast of criminalization in being deprived of services for them. And this is not even what I'm saying. It's been 50 years of documented research from the Department of Ed from annual civil rights that repeatedly shows for 50 years now extreme disproportionality for disabled black and Latinx boys, in particular from suspension, expulsion, and in-school arrests. I think one of the most surprising statistics for me that I had learned recently was African-American youth are five times more likely to be misdiagnosed with conduct disorder before receiving the proper diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. And I appreciate going back to that term of neurodiversity because I think it's really important for us to realize that neurodiversity is an asset-based perspective that makes us shift from looking at it as the student that needs to be fixed, that neurodiversity is the norm, but for us to look at the environment. And I really believe that we cannot have conversations about disability without fully having conversations about race, language, and the need to question what needs to be fixed, particularly not just our teaching, but our assessment practices. For example, we talk about neurodiversities around what we consider normal or abnormal, which is based on how we make expectations around what society thinks. One of the things that showed up in our own household—when we think about neurodiversity or assessments for autism—is this idea of maintaining eye contact. That's one of the widely considered autistic traits. In the Chinese and in the Asian household, and also in African communities, making eye contact to an adult or somebody with authority? It is considered rude. But we consider that as one of the characteristics when we engage in diagnostic tools. This is where I think there needs to be more deep reflection around how one is diagnosed, how a conversation of disability is not separate from our understanding of students and their language practices, their cultural practices. What do we consider normative? Because normative is highly situated in culture and context. Mike: I would love to stay on this theme because one of the things that stands out in that last portion of our conversation was this notion that rather than thinking about, “We need to change the child.” Part of what we really want to think about is, “What is the work that we might do to change the learning environment?” And I wonder if you could talk a bit about how educators go about that and what, maybe, some of the tools could be in their toolbox if they were trying to think in that way. Cathery: I love that question of, “What can we as teachers do? What's some actionable things?” I really appreciate Universal Design for Learning framework, particularly their revised updated version, or 3.0 version, that just came out, I think it was June or July of this year. Let me give you a little bit of background about universal design. And I'm sure you probably already know. I've been reading a lot around its origins. It came about [in the] 1980s, we know from cast.org. But I want to go further back, and it really builds from universal design and the work of architecture. So universal design was coined by a disabled architect. His name was Ronald Mace. And as I was reading his words, it really helped me better understand what UDL is. We know that UDL— Universal Design for Learning and universal design—is about access. Everybody should have access to curriculum. And that sounds great, but I've also seen classrooms where access to curriculum meant doing a different worksheet while everybody else is engaging in small group, whole group problem-based learning.  Access might mean your desk is in the front of the room where you're self-isolated—where you're really close to the front of the board so you can see it really well—but you can't talk to your peers. Or that access might mean you're in a whole different classroom, doing the same set of worksheets or problems, but you're not with your grade-level peers.  And when Ronald Mace talks about access, he explained that access in architecture had already been a focus in the late 1900s, around 1998, I think. But he said that universal design is really about the longing. And I think that really shifted the framing. And his argument was that we need to design a place, an environment where folks across a range of bodies and minds feel a sense of belonging there. That we don't need to adapt—the space was already designed for you. And that has been such a transformative perspective: That it shouldn't be going a different route or doing something different, because by doing that, you don't feel like you belong. But if the space is one where you can take part equally and access across the ways you may engage, then you feel a sense of belonging. Mike: The piece of what you said that I'm really contemplating right now is this notion of belonging. What occurs to me is that approaching design principles for a learning environment or a learning experience with belonging in mind is a really profound shift. Like asking the question, “What would it mean to feel a sense of belonging in this classroom or during this activity that's happening?” That really changes the kinds of things that an educator might consider going through a planning process. I'm wondering if you think you might be able to share an example or two of how you've seen educators apply universal design principles in their classrooms in ways that remove barriers in the environment and support students' mathematical learning. Cathery: Oh gosh, I feel so blessed. I spend… Tomorrow I'm going to be at a school site all day doing this. UDL is about being responsive to our students and knowing that the best teaching requires us to listen deeply to who they are, honor their mathematical brilliance, and their agency. It's about honoring who they are. I think where UDL ups it to another level, is it asks us to consider who makes the decision. If we are making all the decisions of what is best for that student, that's not fully aligned with UDL. The heart of UDL, it's around multiple ways for me to engage, to represent and express, and then students are given choice. So, one of the things that's an important part of UDL is honoring students' agency, so we do something called “access needs.” At the start of a lesson, we might go, “What do you need to be able to fully participate in math today?” And kids from kindergarten to high school or even my college students will just write out what they need. And usually, it's pretty stereotypical: “I want to talk to someone when I'm learning.” “I would like to see it and not just hear it.” And then you continually go back and you ask, “What are your access needs? What do you need to fully participate?”  So students are reflecting on their own what they need to be fully present and what they believe is helpful to create a successful learning environment. So that's a very strong UDL principle—that instead of us coming up with a set of norms for our students, we co-develop that. But we're co-developing it based on students reflecting on their experience in their environment. In kindergarten, we have children draw pictures. As they get older, they can draw, they can write. But it's this idea that it's an ongoing process for me to name out what I need to be fully present. And oftentimes, they're going to say things that are pretty critical. It's almost always critical, to be honest with you, but that's a… I would say that's a core component of UDL. We're allowing students to reflect on what they need so they can name it for themselves, and then we can then design that space together. And along the way, we have kids that name, “You know what? I need the manipulatives to be closer.” That would not come about at the start of me asking about access needs. But if we did a lesson, and it was not close by, they'll tell me. So it's really around designing an environment where they can fully participate and be their full selves and feel a sense of belonging. So, that's one example.  Another one that we've been doing is teachers and kids who have traditionally not participated the most in our classrooms or have even engaged in pullout intervention. And we'll have them walk around school, telling us about their day. “Will you walk me through your day and tell me how you feel in each of these spaces, and what are your experiences like?” And again, we're allowing the students to name out what they need. And then they're naming out… Oftentimes, with the students that we're at, where I'm working in mostly multilingual spaces, they'll say, “Oh, I love this teacher because she allows us to speak in Spanish in the room. It's OK.” So that's going back to ideas of action, expression, engagement, where students are allowed a trans language. That's one of the language principles.  But we're allowing students and providing spaces and really paying close attention to: “How do we decide how to maximize participation for our students with these set of UDL guidelines? How we are able to listen and make certain decisions on how we can strengthen their participation, their sense of belonging in our classrooms.” Mike: I think what's lovely about both of those examples—asking them to write or draw what they need or the description of, “Let's walk through the day. Let's walk through the different spaces that you learn in or the humans that you learn with”—is one, it really is listening to them and trying to make meaning of that and using that as your starting point. I think the other piece is that it makes me think that it's something that happens over time. It might shift, you might gain more clarity around the things that students need or they might gain more clarity around the things that they need over time. And those might shift a little bit, or it might come into greater focus. Like, “I thought I needed this” or “I think I needed this, but what I really meant was this.” There's this opportunity for kids to refine their needs and for educators to think about that in the designs that they create. Cathery: I really appreciate you naming that because it's all of that. It's an ongoing process where we're building a relationship with our students for us to co-design what effective teaching looks like—that it's not a one size fits all. It's disrupting this idea that what works for one works for all. It's around supporting our students to name out what they need. Now, I'm almost 50. I struggle to name out what I need sometimes, so it's not going to happen in, like, one time. It's an ongoing process. And what we need is linked to context, so it has to be ongoing. But there's also in the moments as well. And it's the heart of good teaching in math, when you allow students to solve problems in the ways that make sense to them, that's UDL by design. That's honoring the ideas of multiplicity in action, expression. When you might give a context-based problem and you take the numbers away and you give a set of number choices that students get to choose from. That is also this idea of UDL because there's multiple ways for them to engage. So there are also little things that we do that… note how they're just effective teaching. But we're honoring this idea that children should have agency. All children can engage in doing mathematics. And part of learning mathematics is also supporting our students to see the brilliance in themselves and to leverage that in their own teaching and learning. Mike: Yeah. Something else that really occurred to me as we've been talking is the difference between the way we've been talking about centering students' needs and asking them to help us understand them and the process that that kind of kicks off. I think what strikes me is that it's actually opening up the possibilities of what might happen or the ways that a student could be successful as opposed to this notion that “You're neurodiverse, you fit in this bucket. There's a set of strategies that I'm going to do just for you,” and those strategies might actually limit or constrict the options you have. For example, in terms of mathematics, what I remember happening very often when I was teaching is, I would create an open space for students to think about ways that they could solve problems. And at the time, often what would happen is kids who were characterized as neurodiverse wouldn't get access to those same strategies. It would be kind of the idea that “This is the way we should show them how to do it.” It just strikes me how different that experience is. I suspect that that was done with the best of intentions, but I think the impact unfortunately probably really didn't match the intent. Cathery: I love how you're being honest. I did the same thing when I was teaching, too, because we were often instructed to engage in whole-group instruction and probably do a small-group pullout. That was how I was taught. And when the same kids are repeatedly pulled out because we're saying that they're not able to engage in the instruction. I think that part of UDL is UDL is a process, realizing that if students are not engaging fully in the ways that we had hoped, instead of trying to fix the child, we look at the environment and think about what changes we need to make in tier one. So whole-group instruction, whole-group participation first to see how we can maximize their participation. And it's not one strategy, because it depends; it really depends. I think of, for example, with a group of teachers in California and Texas now, we've been looking at how we can track participation in whole-group settings. And we look at them across social demographics, and then we started to notice that when we promote multimodal whole-group participation, like kids have access to manipulatives even during whole-group share out. Or they have visuals that they can point to, their participation and who gets to participate drastically increase. So there's many ways in which, by nature, we engage in some narrow practices because, too, oftentimes whole group discussion is almost completely verbal and, at times, written, and usually the teacher's writing. So it's going back to the idea of, “Can we look at what we want our students to do at that moment? So starting on the math concept and practices, but then looking at our students and when they're not participating fully, it's not them. What are the UDL principles and things that I know and strategies that I have with my colleagues that I can make some small shifts?” Mike: You know, one of the things that I enjoy most about the podcast is that we really can take a deep dive into some big ideas, and the limitation is we have 20 minutes to perhaps a half hour. And I suspect there are a lot of people who are trying to make meaning of what we're talking about and thinking about, “How might I follow up? How might I take action on some of the ideas?” So I want to turn just for a little while to resources, and I'm wondering if there are resources that you would suggest for a listener who wants to continue learning about universal design in a mathematics classroom? Cathery: Oh, my goodness, that's such a hard question because there's so many. Some good ones overall: I would definitely encourage folks to dive into the UDL guidelines—the 3.0 updates. They're amazing. They're so joyful and transformative that they even have, one of the principles is centering joy in play, and for us to imagine that, right? Mike: Yes! Cathery: What does that mean to do that in a math classroom? We can name out 50 different ways. So how often do we get to see that? So, I would highly encourage folks to download that, engage in deep discussion because it was a 2.2 version for, I think, quite a few years. I would also lean into a resource that I'm glad to email later on so it's more easily accessible. I talked about access needs, this idea of asking students, asking community members, asking folks to give this opportunity to name out what they need. It's written by a colleague, Dr. Daniel Reinholz and Dr. Samantha Ridgway. It's a lovely reading, and it focuses specifically in STEM but I think it's a great place to read. I would say that Dr. Rachel Lambert's new book on UDL math is an excellent read. It's a great joyful read to think about. I'm going to give one shout out to the book called the Year of the Tiger: An Activist's Life. It's by Alice Wong. I encourage that because how often do we put the word activism next to disability? And Alice Wong is one of the most amazing humans in the world, and it's a graphic novel. So it's just joyful. It's words with poetry and graphic novel mixed together to see the life of what it means to be a disabled activist and how activism and disability goes hand in hand. Because when you are disabled and multi-marginalized, you are often advocating for yourself and others. It's amazing. So I'll stop there. There's endless amounts. Mike: So for listeners, we'll link the resources that Cathery was talking about in our show notes. I could keep going, but I think this is probably a great place to stop. I want to thank you so much for joining us. It's really been a pleasure talking with you. Cathery: Thank you. Thank you. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2025 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Writer and disability justice activist Alice Wong's illness took her ability to speak without technological assistance, but she continues to make herself, and members of her community, profoundly heard. As part of our new series profiling legends of the Bay Area, Wong joins us to talk about her joyous approach to life and her recent MacArthur Genius win, and to share some favorite interviews recorded with StoryCorps as part of her Disability Visibility Project. We also check in with fellow disability rights activists about the evolution of the movement and the importance of being heard. Guests: Alice Wong, disabled activist, writer and community organizer; founder, Disability Invisibility Project; author, "Year of the Tiger: An Activist's Life." Yomi Sachiko Young, Oakland-based social justice organizer, disability justice dreamer Sandy Ho, executive director of the Disability and Philanthropy Forum Emily Flores, journalist and founder/editor in chief, Cripple Media

Some podcast apps may not display links from our show notes properly, so we have included a list of links at the end of this description. * Alice Wong is an acclaimed disabled activist whose work and writing has shaped the modern conversation around disability. As the founder and director of the Disability Visibility Project, her work foregrounds the stories of those living with disabilities and paints a vibrant picture of disability media and culture. In her latest book, Disability Intimacy, Alice uses her distinctive voice to highlight and curate stories of intimacy. More than sex, more than romantic love, the pieces in her stunning and illuminating new anthology offer broader and more inclusive definitions of what it can mean to be intimate with another person. * In this episode, Alice is joined in a conversation with writer, educator and trainer for transformative justice and disability justice Mia Mingus. Their conversation about Alice's life and work will free your thinking, invigorate your spirit, and delight your desires. * This episode was recorded during a live online event on June 18th, 2024. You can also watch it on the CIIS Public Programs YouTube channel. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. * We hope that each episode of our podcast provides opportunities for growth, and that our listeners will use them as a starting point for further introspection. Many of the topics discussed on our podcast have the potential to bring up feelings and emotional responses. If you or someone you know is in need of mental health care and support, here are some resources to find immediate help and future healing: * -Visit 988lifeline.org or text, call, or chat with The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline by dialing 988 from anywhere in the U.S. to be connected immediately with a trained counselor. Please note that 988 staff are required to take all action necessary to secure the safety of a caller and initiate emergency response with or without the caller's consent if they are unwilling or unable to take action on their own behalf. * -Visit thrivelifeline.org or text “THRIVE” to begin a conversation with a THRIVE Lifeline crisis responder 24/7/365, from anywhere: +1.313.662.8209. This confidential text line is available for individuals 18+ and is staffed by people in STEMM with marginalized identities. * -Visit translifeline.org or call (877) 565-8860 in the U.S. or (877) 330-6366 in Canada to learn more and contact Trans Lifeline, who provides trans peer support divested from police. * -Visit ciis.edu/ciis-in-the-world/counseling-clinics to learn more and schedule counseling sessions at one of our centers. * -Find information about additional global helplines at befrienders.org. * LINKS * Podcast Transcripts: https://www.ciispod.com/ * California Institute of Integral Studies (CIIS) Website: https://www.ciis.edu/ * CIIS Public Programs YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/ciispublicprograms * CIIS Public Programs Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ciispubprograms/ * Mental Health Care and Support Resources: https://988lifeline.org/ https://thrivelifeline.org/ https://translifeline.org/ https://www.ciis.edu/ciis-in-the-world/counseling-clinics https://befrienders.org/

Jeff and Rebecca digest the finalists for the 2024 National Book Award in fiction, envy and admire MacArthur winners, get pumped for The Corrections on TV, and think about Reese's thriller. Subscribe to the podcast via RSS, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. For more industry news, sign up for our Today in Books daily newsletter! Check out the Book Riot Podcast Book Page on Thriftbooks! The Book Riot Podcast Patreon Discussed in this episode: This content contains affiliate links. When you buy through these links, we may earn an affiliate commission. mytbr.co National Book Award finalists announced Federal judge orders Arkansas public library to reshelve “inappropriate” books Jason Reynolds, Ling Ma, Alice Wong among 2024 MacArthur grant winners Meryl Streep attached to star in Corrections adaptation Reese Witherspoon to co-write debut novel with Harlan Coben The Mighty Red by Louise Erdrich Entitlement by Rumaan Alam Chop Fry Watch Learn by Michelle King Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome solo and group practice owners! We are Liath Dalton and Evan Dumas, your co-hosts of Group Practice Tech. In our latest episode, we chat with therapist Emily Decker about how to make group practice more accessible, both for clients and staff.   We discuss: The number of mental health clinicians who are disabled Navigating identity as a disabled person and as a helping professional, especially where those identities intersect Practice culture and neurodivergence Ways to create a disability affirming culture within group practice (for clients and staff) Unpacking what professionalism means What accessibility means What disability means Internalized ableism Unpacking what's actually needed for therapy and what isn't Universal Design, and how to apply it for therapy practices Our upcoming CE training with Emily on this topic Listen here: https://personcenteredtech.com/group/podcast/ For more, visit our website. PCT Resources 2 legal-ethical CE credit hour training (live and recorded), presented by Emily Decker, MS, LPC, NCC, Can You Hear Me? The Legal and Ethical Role of Accessibility in Anti-Oppressive and Neurodivergent-Affirming Teletherapy This training aims to create familiarity and comfort for therapists providing teletherapy and combat stigma and inaccessibility in teletherapy. The conversation is situated within an anti-oppressive and neurodivergent-affirming framework, connecting concepts of accessibility and disability justice with mental health care, and provides an overview of legal and ethical issues pertaining to accessibility within teletherapy, including identifying and dispelling common myths about accessibility and disability, and identifying specific, concrete resources for therapists to use to enhance the accessibility of their services. Resources Recommended by Emily Book: Demystifying Disability: What to Know, What to Say, and How to Be an Ally by Emily Ladau DARN Disability 2023 conference recordings (free! and geared towards educators and supervisors) Web Accessibility and the ADA Textbook: Disability-Affirmative Therapy by Rhoda Olkin This author also has a webinar on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEJ46Rfz2kc Textbook: Disability As Diversity by Erin E. Andrews Book: Disability Visibiltiy by Alice Wong (also has a great website and podcast by the same name)

When you live in a disabled body, you don't always get to see yourself in the love stories you consume. Anita talks with three folks changing that through their own writing. She meets a novelist, essayist and activist who share their disability love stories and how writing has changed their relationships with others and themselves.Meet the guests:- Keah Brown, journalist and author of "The Pretty One," talks about her experience with cerebral palsy and her multi-year journey to self-love- Maria Town, activist and CEO and president of the American Association of People with Disabilities, discusses opening up about her romantic relationship for the first time in her essay, ”This is My Solemn Vow”- Talia Hibbert, British romance author, digs into how her own experiences as a disabled person inform the romantic leads that she writesRead the transcript | Review the podcast on your preferred platformFollow Embodied on X and Instagram Leave a message for EmbodiedSign up for WUNC's new Politics Newsletter here.Dive deeper:“Disability Intimacy,” edited by activist Alice Wong

In this eye-opening conversation with writer Jessica Slice, you'll learn what it's like to date with a disability and chronic illness. We get into so much in this episode, like when to disclose a disability, tips for using dating apps, where dating apps fall short when it comes to inclusivity for disabled folks and tips for what to do when you encounter someone in your dating journey who has a disability. We also talk a lot about Jessica's amazing new book, Dateable: Swiping Right, Hooking Up and Settling Down while Chronically Ill and Disabled. Book link: https://www.amazon.com/Dateable-Swiping-Settling-Chronically-Disabled/dp/0306832739 Modern Love piece: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/19/style/modern-love-he-cared-so-i-broke-up-with-him.html Slide into my DMs on IG: https://www.instagram.com/dating.intentionally/ Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dating.intentionally Get my free dating FAQ guide: http://eepurl.com/ihTMYj Read more on the blog: https://intentionally.dating/blog-posts/  Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Dating.Intentionally  Submit a dating dilemma: https://forms.gle/xCmAWvDPGJdr3rFz9  Rate on Apple: https://t.ly/JJgpP  About Jessica Slice: Jessica Slice is a disabled author and essayist who has published essays The New York Times's Modern Love column, in Alice Wong's bestselling Disability Visibility, The New York Times, The Washington Post, Hippocampus, Glamour, Cosmopolitan, and HuffPost. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The vast majority of care recipients are exclusively receiving unpaid care from a family member, friend, or neighbor. The rest receive a combination of family care and paid assistance, or exclusively paid formal care. Whether you're a paid home care provider, or rely on personal assistance to meet your daily needs, or a family member caring for a loved one, the nature of the working relationship depends on mutual respect and dignity. During this week's anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act, we'll revisit the dynamic and complex relationship of care receiving and giving. Learn more about the story and find the transcript on radioproject.org. Making Contact digs into the story beneath the story—contextualizing the narratives that shape our culture. Featuring narrative storytelling and thought-provoking interviews. We cover the most urgent issues of our time and the people on the ground building a more just world. EPISODE FEATURES: This episode features Camille Christian, home care provider and SEIU member Camille Christian & Brenda Jackson, home care providers & SEIU members; Patty Berne, co-founder and director, Sins Invalid; Jessica Lehman, executive director, San Francisco Senior and Disability Action; Kenzi Robi, president, San Francisco IHSS (In Home Supportive Services) Public Authority Governing Body; Rachel Stewart, queer disabled woman passionate about disability and employment issues; Alana Theriault, disability benefits counselor in Berkeley, California; Ingrid Tischer, director of development, Disability Rights Education & Defense Fund (DREDF); and Alta Mae Stevens, in-home caregiver. MAKING CONTACT: This episode is hosted by Laura Flynn & Anita Johnson. It is produced by Anita Johnson, Lucy Kang, Salima Hamirani, and Amy Gastelum, and Contributing Producers, Alice Wong and Stephanie Guyer-Stevens. Our executive director is Jina Chung.  MUSIC: This episode includes Dexter Britain: The Time To Run (Finale), Gillicuddy: Adventure, Darling, Steve Combs: March, Jason Shaw: Running Waters, Jared C. Balogh: BRICK BY BRICK DAY BY DAY, Jared C. Balogh: INCREMENTS TOWARDS SERENITY, Nheap: Crossings, Cherly KaCherly: The Hungry Garden, Trio Metrik: Vogelperspektive, & Kevin MacLeod: Faster Does It. Learn More: UCSF: UCSF Study Projects Need for 2.5M More Long-Term Care Workers by 2030 SEIU: Longterm Care Workers Disability Rights Education & Defense Fund Disability Visibility Project Hand in Hand: The Domestic Employers Network National Disability Leadership Alliance Senior and Disability Action Sins Invalid San Francisco In Home Supportive Services Public Authority Family Caregiver Alliance  

“Intimacy is about relationships within a person's self, with others, with communities, with nature, and beyond,” writes Alice Wong, founder and director of the Disability Visibility Project and editor of the new anthology, “Disability Intimacy.” When Wong began work on the book, she googled what would become its title — and what was she found was “basic AF” and made her go “Ewwwwww.” That inspired her to commission and collect writing from people with disabilities about what intimacy meant to them. The essays reflect on friendships, parent-child bonds, romantic relationships and disability communities. We'll hear from Wong and some of the anthology's contributors about the intimacy of sharing and disclosing our relationships with ourselves, with others and with disability itself. And we'll hear their stories of “love, care and desire” — and the personal and systemic change that intimacy can bring. Guests: Alice Wong, disabled activist, writer and community organizer; editor, "Disability Intimacy: Essays on Love, Care, and Desire" s.e. smith, freelance journalist whose essay in "Disability Intimacy" is "Skin Hunger and the Taboo of Wanting to be Touched" Yomi Sachiko Young, Oakland-based disability justice activist; dreamer whose essay in "Disability Intimacy" is "Primary Attachment" Melissa Hung, writer, editor and journalist whose essay in "Disability Intimacy" is "The Last Walk"; founding editor in chief, Hyphen - an independent Asian American magazine; former director, San Francisco WritersCorps

Beatrice speaks with Alice Wong about Alice's campaign to reinstate a mask mandate at UCSF, a hospital system home to a number of physicians who have played an outsized, deleterious, role in advocating for a premature end to covid protections. Transcript: https://www.deathpanel.net/transcripts/alice-wong-ucsf Find Alice's call to action here: https://disabilityvisibilityproject.com/2024/01/25/n95s4ucsf-call-to-action/ Find our template letter from Abby here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTyI4yLBuOJQR_IgnYVc17GxCbBT2G32QiENnFLq0kZCDmoLy-c23o8eLX_ISNlCMCA6xARBAUkWfqQ/pub Find Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha's template here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JxT8VQbV7ju-xUrKCG6NDeW2scOROyis10wjNg4YnTY/edit Find our book Health Communism here: www.versobooks.com/books/4081-health-communism Find Jules' new book, A Short History of Trans Misogyny (out this week!) here: https://www.versobooks.com/products/3054-a-short-history-of-trans-misogyny Death Panel merch here (patrons get a discount code): www.deathpanel.net/merch As always, support Death Panel at www.patreon.com/deathpanelpod Further reading: Alice Wong's most recent column for Teen Vogue: COVID Isn't Going Anywhere. Masking Up Could Save My Life. https://www.teenvogue.com/story/covid-isnt-going-anywhere-masking-up-could-save-my-life Alice Wong, August 2022 (Disability Visibility Project): My ICU Summer: A Photo Essay https://disabilityvisibilityproject.com/2022/08/07/my-icu-summer-a-photo-essay/ Alice Wong, 2020 (Disability Visibility Project): Disabled Oracles and the Coronavirus https://disabilityvisibilityproject.com/2020/03/18/coronavirus/ Alice Wong, March 2023 (Teen Vogue): The “Unwinding” of Medicaid Coverage Will Be Difficult for Disabled Americans, Leave More People Uninsured https://www.teenvogue.com/story/medicaid-coverage-covid Alice Wong's 2023 interview with KQED: Alice Wong: I Still Have a Voice https://www.kqed.org/perspectives/201601142614/alice-wong-i-still-have-a-voice Alice Wong, January 2024 (Disability Visibility Project): Disabled Outrage and #PodSaveJon https://disabilityvisibilityproject.com/2024/01/02/disabled-outrage-and-podsavejon/

The world can feel like such a lonely place sometimes. You ever feel like there's not enough love and support to go around? Like, there's a severe shortage of compassion in the world, both for you and well, everyone? Me too, friends.  To get us into this topic, this week on It's OK, we cover grief comparisons, like whether divorce and death should be compared, or if the death of anyone should be compared to the loss of a pet. Of course the short answer is no: grief comparisons are never useful. For the long answer though - listen to the show.  This episode is basically my TED talk, if I had one, on how we create that support-filled world we all want (and deserve). It's my personal favorite episode of season one, brought to you again for this Valentine's day.    In this episode we cover: Why comparing divorce to death, or pet loss to child loss, is a Very. Bad. Idea. (usually) Is it ok to be sad about a musician or actor's death, even if you never met them?  How to treat compassion like an abundant resource AND have good boundaries all at the same  The path to the love-filled, support-rich world we all want (it's not easy, but it's worth it)  Terminology update: in this episode I use the term gender-fluid, but the term gender-expansive is more accurate.   Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.   About Megan:  Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today's leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don't call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It's Ok that You're Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief   Notable quote:  “It sounds pretty woo but compassion really is an expandable resource. Practicing inclusion and validation means people feel heard, and heard people hear people, which means the whole culture starts to change from one of vindictive “how dare you feel that way!” to at worst, a neutral, impartial kindness, and at best - well, being generous like this creates a world built and sustained by love.” - Megan Devine   Resources:  Love in action! Check out this exceptionally non-extensive list of people to learn from as we grow the love-filled world we all want:  Rachel Cargle, Alok Menon, Alice Wong, Free Mom Hugs, Farmer Veteran Coalition, Natalie Weaver, & Resting Waters   Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.    Check out Megan's best-selling books - It's OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can't Be Fixed   Books and resources may contain affiliate links.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Beatrice and Jules speak with Liat Ben-Moshe and Leah Harris about how Palestinian resistance and rebellion is pathologized and the importance of transnational disability solidarity with Palestine. Transcript: https://www.deathpanel.net/transcripts/pathologizing-palestine Find our book Health Communism here: www.versobooks.com/books/4081-health-communism Pre-order Jules' new book here: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/733966/a-short-history-of-trans-misogyny-by-jules-gill-peterson/ Death Panel merch here (patrons get a discount code): www.deathpanel.net/merch As always, support Death Panel at www.patreon.com/deathpanelpod Referenced in this episode: — Nu'man Abd al-Wahid, "Pathologising Palestinians to revive eugenic genocide" https://english.almayadeen.net/articles/analysis/pathologising-palestinians-to-revive-eugenic-genocide — Mohammad El-Kurd, "Jewish settlers stole my house. It's not my fault they're Jewish." https://mondoweiss.net/2023/09/jewish-settlers-stole-my-house-its-not-my-fault-theyre-jewish/ — Alice Wong, "Why Palestinian Liberation Is Disability Justice" https://disabilityvisibilityproject.com/2023/12/02/why-palestinian-liberation-is-disability-justice/

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Margaret and Leah talk about disability, preparedness, and covid. Guest Info Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha (They/She) is a writer and structural engineer of disability and transformative justice work. Leah can be found at brownstargirl.org, on Instagram @leahlakshmiwrites, or on Bluesky @thellpsx.bsky.social Their book The Future is Disabled: Prophecies, Love Notes, and Mourning Songs can be found: https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-future-is-disabled-prophecies-love-notes-and-mourning-songs-leah-lakshmi-piepzna-samarasinha/18247280 Their book Care Work: Dreaming Disability Justice can be found: https://bookshop.org/p/books/care-work-dreaming-disability-justice-leah-lakshmi-piepzna-samarasinha/16603798 Host Info Margaret (she/they) can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Leah on Disability and Preparedness Resources Mentioned: StaceyTaughtUs Syllabus, by Alice Wong and Leah: https://disabilityvisibilityproject.com/2020/05/23/staceytaughtus-syllabus-work-by-stacey-milbern-park/ NoBody Is Disposable Coalition: https://nobodyisdisposable.org/ Power To Live Coalition: https://www.powertolivecoalition.org/ Disability Visibility Project article about Power to Live : https://disabilityvisibilityproject.com/2019/10/26/call-for-stories-powertolive/ Power to Live survival skillshare doc: http://tinyurl.com/dissurvival Long winter crip survival guide for pandemic year 4/forever by Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha and Tina “constant tt” Zavitsanos https://www.tinyurl.com/longwintersurvival Pod Mapping for Mutual Aid by Rebel Sydney Rose Fayola Black: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-QfMn1DE6ymhKZMpXN1LQvD6Sy_HSnnCK6gTO7ZLFrE/mobilebasic?fbclid=IwAR0ehOJdo-vYmJUrXsKCpQlCODEdQelzL9AE5UDXQ1bMgnHh2oAnqFs2B3k Half Assed Disabled Prepper Tips for Preparing for a Coronavirus Quarantine. (By Leah) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rIdpKgXeBHbmM3KpB5NfjEBue8YN1MbXhQ7zTOLmSyo/edit Sins Invalid Disability Justice is Climate Justice: https://www.sinsinvalid.org/news-1/2022/7/7/disability-justice-is-climate-justice Skin Tooth and Bone: The Basis of Movement is Our People (A disability justice primer): https://www.sinsinvalid.org/disability-justice-primer DJ Curriculum by Sins: https://www.sinsinvalid.org/curriculum Partnership for Inclusive Disaster Strategies: https://disasterstrategies.org/ Live Like the World is Dying: Leah on Disability & Preparedness **Margaret ** 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host, Margaret killjoy. And I always tell you that I'm excited about episodes, but I'm really excited about this episode. It put me in a better mood than when I started the day that I get to record this episode. Because today, we're going to be talking about disability and preparedness. We're gonna be talking about Covid abandonment. And we're gonna be talking about a lot of the questions that... a lot of the questions that people write us to talk about that they have about preparedness and I think that we can cover a lot of those. Not me, but our guest. But first before the guest, a jingle from another show on the network. Oh, the network is called Channel Zero Network. It is a network of anarchists podcasts and here's a jingle. [sings a simple melody] **Margaret ** 01:08 Okay, and we're back. So, if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then I guess just a little bit about how you got involved in thinking about and dealing with disability and preparedness. **Leah ** 02:00 Sure. Hi, my name is Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha. She and They pronouns. Right now I live in Pocomtuc and Nipmuc territories in Western Massachusetts. And that is a great question. I will also just plug myself briefly and be like I'm a disability justice and transformative justice old sea-hag, aging punk of color who has written or co-edited ten books and done a lot of shit. Okay, so when I was sitting on the toilet thinking about "What do I want to tell Margaret when we get on the show?", I was actually thinking that my disability and my preparedness routes are kind of one in the same because... So I'm 48 [years old] now and I got sick when I was 21-22. So like back in 96-97. And, it was the initial episode that I got sick with chronic fatigue, ME, and fibromyalgia. And I was just super fucking ill and on the floor and was living in Toronto as somebody who was not from Canada. And, you know, I was just sick as hell, like crawling to the bathroom, like sleeping 18 hours a day. The whole nine. And I'd been really really deeply involved in anarchist of color and prison abolitionist and antifascist organizing and lots of stuff. I had a community, but it was 1997, so most of my community was just like, "What you're sick? Why didn't you make it to the meeting? We have to write all the prisoners with the [untranslatable]." And I was just like, "I just.... Okay, great." Like it was a really different time. There was no GoFundMe, mutual aid, Meal Train, someone brought me some soup. Like, know you, we weren't really doing that. And people really did not have a consciousness around, "You can be a 22 year old brown, nonbinary femme and be really, really sick and be disabled." So something I think a lot, and I've said before, is that disabled people are really used to the concept that no one is going to save us and we are really not surprised when state systems abandoned us because we live in that all the time. And so I was just like this little 22 year old sicko weirdo who'd read my Octavia Butler--and, in fact, that was part of the reason why I was like, "Toronto, great, there's gonna be more water and less heat." Okay, wasn't totally right about that. But, you know, I mean, I really had to save myself and I kind of was like, "Alright, I don't have..." Like, I'm working off the...I'm working under the table. I have hardly any money. I'm gonna make my own herbal medicine. I'm gonna grow a lot of what I eat from my backyard. I'm going to store water. I'm going to run a credit card scam and get a lot of dried goods and live off of those for like a year. [Margaret Hell Yeahs] Yeah, stuff like that. I feel like from there, over the last, you know, 26 years like it's....like, that's the route. The route was, you know, similar to a lot of people, I think of my generation, we were like on the cusp of looking at the current crises of like hot fascist war, hot eugenics war, hot climate crisis, and being like, "It's coming," and I started being like, "Yeah, like don't...don't think that it's all going to work out okay and that somebody else is going to fix it for you." So, I would say that's where my initial route--and then do you want to jump in? Or can I jump ahead like 20 years or something? **Margaret ** 05:10 Honestly, you could jump ahead 20 years later. I'm gonna come back and make you talk more about Octavia Butler. But we'll do that later. **Leah ** 05:16 Let's talk more about Octavia Butler because I have a lot of stuff about Octavia Butler and how she thought of--and I think sometimes misused--like nowadays [this is probably not the word but it's untranslatable] and also about disability. [Margaret "Oooohs" curiously] I know. We can get to that. Okay, so that's one route. And then, you know, I mean, I was always kind of like a little weirdo, where it's like, yeah, I grow most of my own food--or as much as I can--and it's not a fun green hobby. It's like, I'm broke as fuck and I need to grow a lot vegetables that fucking, you know, I can mulch and that can stay growing into December, you know? I stashed stuff. Something I also think a lot, is that as disabled people--and we talked about this a little bit when we're emailing--I think we're always prepping whether we call it that or not. Like most disabled folks I know just do shit. Like if you get a prescription and you have extra, you store it, you know? Like, if you can get a double dose, you put that aside. And then maybe you have it for yourself. Or, there's so many disabled mutual aid networks I've been a part of where someone's--I mean, before Facebook clamped down, this is really common on a lot of Facebook disabled groups--someone would be like, "Yo, does anyone have an extra five pills of such and such?" and I've seen total strangers for 15 years of disability justice be like, "Yep, what's your address? I do. I'm gonna mail it to you. I have my old pain meds. I've got this. I've got that." But, um, yeah, like doing the jumping forward that I promised you, so for people who don't know, disability justice as a movement was founded around 2005 by a group, a small group of disabled Black, Asian, and poor and working class, white disabled folks, who were all pretty, you know, gay, trans, and radical. And they were like, "We want to bring a revolutionary intersectional out of our own lives and experiences and issues. We want to create a disability movement that's for us and by us that's not just white, single issue, often cis, often male, often straight." Like, we want to talk about the fact that 50% of bipoc folks who were killed by the cops are also disabled, deaf, neurodivergent, etc... just to give one example. So, you know, that was '05 in Oakland, you know, Patti Burn, LeRoy Moore, Stacy Milbern, Ely Claire, Sebastian Margaret, Stacey Milbern Park, you know, the six. And I was living in Toronto and I moved to Oakland in '07 and I was kind of around for some of the beginnings of it. There's two stories I want to bring in. One actually predates my move. It was right when I was getting ready to leave Toronto, I got invited to go to this reading by a bunch of queer--I think all white--disabled radical folks. And I was just like, "Oh?" And I did the whole, like, "Am I really disabled enough?" and then it was like, "Oh, it's gonna be really depressing." And then it was really awesome. And I was like, "Whoa, disability community. Life saving." But it was kind of one of my moments of being brought into the disability community because there was this writer who was there who, their reading series was actually a choose your own adventure where there's four disabled, queer, and trans folks who are having a sex party and the zombie apocalypse happens. And then they have to figure out how to survive it without abandoning each other. And it was all like, "Okay, you all get to the van, but then there's no ramp. What do you do? Oh! You get this accessible ramp, but it smells like perfume and somebody has NCS. What do you do? And I was just sitting there with my mouth open--and it was also interwoven with like, 'Yeah, and then somebody's fucking somebody else with like, you know, a dildo strapped to their prosthetic,'" and I was like, wow, I fucking love disability. Like, sign me up. But I gotta say briefly, that was one of my first examples of like, you know, there's a really important phrase in Disability Justice, which is, "No one left behind, " right? Like, that's one of the core organizing principles. And that was kind of.... Before I even heard that phrase, I was like, "Fuck like this is..."--because I'd been around antiauthoritarian, quasi prepper, like "shit's gonna happen, we have to get ready." But I was always kind of quiet in the corner closeting my disability being like, "Well, shit, like, what if I don't have my meds? Or what if I'm too.... What if I can't run away from, you know, the Nazis or the zombies because I have a limp and I walk with a cane? Like, what if?" And that was my first example of this cross disability fantasy space of like, "We're going to escape together and we're not going to let anyone get eaten and it's going to mean really being creative about access stuff." Okay so jump ahead to, right, then I moved to Oakland and then I ran into actual Disability Justice community through Sins Invalid, which is an incredibly important foundational Disability Justice group, and through a lot of friendships I started making with other QTBIPOC disabled folks and my really, really good friend Stacy Park Milbern, who, people should totally know her work. She's incredible. She was one of the best movement organizers that the movement has ever seen. And we met online. And she was living in Fort Bragg, North Carolina with her family on the base because her family's military. And she was a queer southern, working-class, Korean and white, you know, physically disabled organizer from when she was really young. And then she was like, "Okay, I love my family, but I'm literally hiding my gay books in the wall because my mom's Pentecostal." So, yeah, and she's like--I literally realized she tells the story a lot--she's like, "Yeah, like, I realized I hadn't really left the house for a couple months and like, this is gonna be it," and she's like, "I was literally watching Oprah. And Oprah said, 'No one's coming to save you.'" And she was like, okay. She's 21 years old. And then through online, disabled, queer of color community there was this--or she organized--this initiative called To the Other Side of Dreaming where she moved crosscountry with Mia Mingus, who's another queer Korean organizer who was a friend of hers, ad moved to the Bay Area. And so that was around 2010-2011. And then in 2011, what happens but the Fukushima nuclear accident, right, disaster? And we're all on the West Coast--and it's completely ridiculous bullshit, looking back on it now--but all of these Bay Area folks were like, "Oh my God! Radiation!" And some people pointed out, "Look, you know, we're not.... There's...it's a big ocean. The people who really have to worry are in Japan and areas around it, so whatever?" But it was one of those times where we were like, fuck, this is a really big nuclear accident and we are sort of close and it's making us think about disaster. And I remember just going to fucking Berkeley Bowl, which is this big, fancy, organic supermarket and people had bought out all of the burdock all the fucking seaweed. And I was like, "Oh, my God, these people." But out of that, Stacy started having conver--and I and other people who were in our organizing network of disabled, majority BIPOC--were like, "What are we going to as disabled BIPOC if there is an earthquake, fascism, like another big disaster? And Stacy said, really bluntly, she's like, "You know," and she was a power wheelchair user. She used a ventilator. You know, she's like, "Yeah, I am supported by electricity and battery dependent access equipment." And she's like, "Well, I'm going to be really honest, my plan has always been, if something happens, I'm just going to lay down in my bed and die, because I don't think that any emergency services are going to come save me and the power is going to run out in 48 hours. And then we were like, "Okay, that's super real. What if, through our amazing collective access stuff we're doing, we could figure out something else?" And we had this meeting at Arismendy bakery, which for folks who know, is like a worker owned co-op chain, Our friend Remedios worked there. It's wheelchair accessible. We met there after hours. And it was just like, 12-15 of us who started just sitting there and being like, "What are the resources we have? What are the needs we have? And we made this map, which I still have, which I think I shared with you, which is just like, "Apocalypse, South Berkeley/Oakland Map 2011," where we were like, "Okay, you know, when the power goes down, the communication goes down. We're gonna meet at this one traffic circle because people who are wheelchair users can roll up. And we're gonna bury note paper in a mason jar with pens and we're gonna leave notes for each other. But we're also going to agree to meet there the day after at noon." And I was like, okay, my collective house, the first floor is wheelchair accessible. We have solar, we have a landline. And we have a lot of space. So like, let's meet there. And then someone was like, "We've got the one accessible van. And we know, it's only supposed to fit 4 people, but we can fit like 12 in there." And we started.... Like, I just think about that a lot because it's, I think it was a really important moment where it was important...the stuff that we did like that--you know, the actual strategies and the resources we started talking about--but it was also that it was the first time in my life that I was like, "Okay, we're not--not only are we not going to just die alone in our beds, I'm also not going to be the one person who survives. Like, I can actually survive with, and because of, other people. And we're all disabled BIPOC with a couple of disabled white folks. And we can actually collectively strategize around that. And this will be my last leap forward, because I see that you're like, "I want to ask you stuff." So, you know, eight years go by, and in that time we all do an incredible amount of Disability Justice organizing and strategizing. And, you know, in 2019.... And a lot of it started to be around climate disaster on the West Coast. Like, I moved to Seattle in 2015. The wildfires started being really bad a year or two later. A lot of us were involved in mask distributions, just spreading information about smoke safety and survival. And then 2019 was the infamous year where the wildfires came back and Pacific Gas and Electric, in all of its fucking glory, which is the main--for people who don't know--it's the main utility electrical company in Northern California. They announced two days before wildfires were going to really impact the Bay, they were like, "Oh, so we've decided that our strategy is going to be that we're just going to shut down all the power in Northern California. **Margaret ** 14:52 No one uses that. [Sardonically] **Leah ** 14:53 No one uses that. And they're like, "Oh, if you have a medical need, call this number, and we'll make sure to leave it on at your house." and Stacey was, "Okay." She had just bought her house, the Disability Justice Culture Club in East Oakland, you know, which was her house but also a community center, de facto community center, that housed a lot of disabled folks of color. And she was like, "I was on the fucking phone for eight hours. Like, I never got through." And she and some comrades started this campaign called Power to Live where they were like.... It started out as, "Okay, we can't save everybody, but we're not going to just lay down and die. What do we do?" So it started out as like, okay, let's identify who has housing that still has power. There's some people in Richmond, there's some people in this neighborhood, but then it also developed into this thing where it was just this amazing crowdsource survivalist resource where it was everything from, she's like, "Here's a number. Here's an email. If you need something, text us, call us, email us. We have a team of eight people. We'll figure it out. If you have something to offer, do it too." And then some of it was that people were sharing everything from generator information, to generator shares, to people in different areas-- like I was in Seattle and we were like, "Okay, we will mail you generators and air purifiers, because it's obviously all sold out in the Bay, but we can get it here and get it to you." The thing that always stands out to me is people being like, "Oh, yeah, here's how you can use dry ice and clay pots to keep your insulin cold if refrigeration goes down." And there's a lot more I could say about that action and how amazing it was. But for me, when I think about the through line, I'm like, that moment in 2011, when we all got together, and were like, "What do we do?" we were prepping for what we couldn't fully predict, you know, the exact manifestation of eight years later. We're there and we're like, "Okay, there's wildfires, there's smoke, there's no fucking power, and we've not only built our organizing base, we built our relationships with each other so that we can actually trust each other and more or less know how to work together when this shit actually is hitting the fan to create something that's really life giving. Okay, I'll shut up. That was a lot. **Margaret ** 16:52 Now I have so many questions about all of it. **Leah ** 16:53 Yeah, ask me all the questions. **Margaret ** 16:55 Because there's a couple...there's a couple of questions and/or feedback that we get with Live Like, the World is Dying a lot. And some of them are very specifically disability related, and you covered most of them, but I want to highlight some of them. Like a lot of people write and are like, "Well, I rely on the following thing that is provided by civilization. So my plan is to lay down and die." Right? This is a--and I know you've kind of answered it--but I.... I want to ask more. Okay, I'll go through all the things. Okay. So to talk more about what "No One Left Behind," means? And then the other thing that really stands out to me is that, you know, when we were talking, when we were talking about what we were going to talk about on this on this episode, I was saying, okay, we can talk about, you know, making sure that preparedness is inclusive and open and includes disabled folks, or whatever, and you pointed out, really usefully, the, the necessity to reframe it. And I think that the story you just gave is a really beautiful example of this, where it's less about, like, "Hey, make sure to pay attention to the people who need canes," you know, or whatever, right? Like, you know, "make sure you keep track of folks based on disability." And more than like the thing you just described, is the thing that we're always trying to push, which is that you need to make a list of all the resources and needs within your community and then figure out how to meet those needs and instead of assuming that we can't meet those needs, figuring out how to actually do it. And so I love that it's actually like.... It's actually disability justice movements that we should be learning from, I mean, or participating in, depending on our level of ability, or whatever, but I just find that I find both of those things really interesting. And so I wonder if you have more that you want to say about alternatives to laying down and dying, and specifically, to tie into the other thing that I get asked the most or that I get the common feedback is--because we talk a lot about the importance of community for preparedness on this show--a lot of people don't feel like they have community and a lot of people write to be like, "I don't have any friends," or "I don't know any other people like me," or, you know. And so, I guess that's my main question is how do.... [Trails off] Yeah, how do? **Leah ** 19:22 So how do you make community when you don't have community? Alternatives to lying down and dying? And was there a third one in there? **Margaret ** 19:28 I was just highlighting how cool it is that y'all sat there and made a list of resources and needs, which is exactly what.... Instead of deciding things are impossible, just being like, "Well, let's just start doing them." You know? **Leah ** 19:40 And I think.... Okay, so I'll start there. Like I think that like.... You know, Corbit O'Toole, who's like a, you know, Disability Rights Movement veteran and like older Irish, disabled dyke, you know, in Crip Camp, the movie, she's like, "Disabled people live all the time with the knowledge that the society wants thinks we're better off dead," right? Like one...back in the day, you know, there's a--I think they're still active--one of the big Disability Rights direct action organizations was called Not Dead Yet, right? [Margaret Hell Yeahs] I think this is the thing is like I think that sometimes abled people or neurotypical people are not used to sitting down and making the list. And I think that even if disabled people aren't preppers, we're used to being like, "Okay, what do I need? Fuck, I need somebody to help me do my dishes. Oh, I can't bend over. I need to figure out what is the access tool that will allow me to pick up something from the floor when my that goes out? Like, if my attendant doesn't show up, can I have a..." You know, like, my friends always like, "Yeah, I've got a yogurt container by the bed in case my attendant doesn't show up so I can not piss the bed. I can lean over and piss in the yogurt container." Like there's a--and I think that.... God, I mean, there's been so many times over the years where I've done or been a part of doing like Disability Justice 101 and me and Stacy would always talk about crip wisdom and crip innovation and people will just look blank like "What are you talking about? You guys are just a bunch of sad orphans at the telethon." It's not just about making the list, it's also about how disabled disability forces you to be innovative. Like, Stacy would always share this story where she's like, "Yeah," like, she's like "Crip innovation is everything from," she's like, "I save a lot of time sometimes by pretending I can't talk when people come over and want to pray over me. You know, I just act like a mute and they fucking leave and they go on with their life," and she's like, "You know, I realized one day, if I took my sneakers off, I could ramp a step if it's just two steps. I could just put them there and I could roll up." Or I mean, there's a million examples.... Or like, because I think it's about prepping and about making the lists and it's also about whatever you prep for, there's always going to be the X Factor of "Oh, we didn't fucking expect that." And I think that's where a lot of prep falls apart is people have their "Dream Bunker." They're like, "Oh, okay, I know exactly what the threats are going to be." And then of course, it doesn't fucking happen that way. I really hope I can swear on your show. **Margaret ** 21:46 You can. Don't worry. **Leah ** 21:47 Great. So, I mean, one example I could give is I'm remembering at, you know, a Sins show when we were in rehearsal, where everyone drove over from Oakland in Patty's wheelchair accessible van, and then the ramp broken wouldn't unfold. So we just were like, alright, who do we know who has welding equipment? Who do we know has lumber? Like, I think we ended up going to a bike repair shop and then they had tools. And then we're like, okay, we'll just bring the rehearsal into the van and do it that way. Like, you have to be innovative. And that's a muscle that I think society doesn't teach you to flex and that often, I think that even people who.... I think there can be a lot of eugenics in prep, you know, whether people are overtly fascist or not, there's a real belief of like, "Oh, only the strong and smart," --which looks a certain way-- "survive," and that "We should use rational thinking to make it all work out." And I think a lot of crip intelligence or wisdom is actually knowing that shit can go sideways 48 different ways and you have to adapt. And you have to just kind of be like, "Well, let's try this." So I think that's one thing. And I think, you know, one thing I'll say is, yeah, just speaking to kind of the reframing we were talking about, I think it's less like, "Oh, remember the people with canes," but, I mean, that's good, but also knowing that we're already doing it and that abled people actually have a shit ton to learn from us. But also, I mean, something.... I mean, the title of my last book is "The Future is Disabled," and it comes from something--it's not unique thinking to me--it's something that a lot of disabled people have been thinking and saying throughout the pandemic is that we were already at like a 30% disabled world minimum and we're pretty close--we're probably at majority disabled right now. Because what, 2% of the world didn't get Covid? Like, how many people have Long Covid? How many people have complex PTSD? We're all sick, crazy, and, you know, needing access equipment. Disability is not out there. It's in here. Like there's no such thing as doing prep that's like, "Oh, only the three Uber Mensch are gonna survive." Like fuck that. And that actually--I mean, sorry, this might be a side note, but a lot of people have probably seen The Last of Us. And I'm just gonna SPOILER ALERT it. You know that famous episode three of those two gay bear preppers in love? Yeah, I loved a lot about it. I was so pissed at the ending, which I'm just going to spoil. So you know, the more artsy, non-prep guy....[interrupted] **Margaret ** 21:47 Yeah, they don't survive. **Leah ** 22:47 Well, no, but like, not only did they not survive but one of them gets chronically ill. And I was just like, grinding my teeth because it's like, "Oh, he's in a wheelchair. Oh, his hand tremors." And then they end up deciding to both kill themselves rather than do anything else. And I was so furious at it because I was like, these are two people who are so innovative. They have figured out all kinds of problem solving. They have an entire small city for themselves. And it's all like, "Oh, no, he can't get up the stairs." And I'm like, really? There was no accessible ranch house you couldn't of fucking moved to? **Margaret ** 24:38 Or like build a bedroom on the fucking ground floor. **Leah ** 24:40 Or youcouldn't get meds? You couldn't? I mean, when his hand was shaking, it was like, "Oh, it's so sad. He's being fed." I'm like, there's tons.... First of all, it doesn't suck to be fed. A lot of things that seem like a fate worse than death are not when you're in them. And also, there's like all kinds of adaptive utensils that they could have fucking raided from medical supply if he wants to feed himself. Or I'm sorry, there's no cans of Ensure? They absolutely have power. They couldn't have made smoothies? Like, what the fuck is this? But beyond that--and I think that a lot of people who have talked about that episode did, I think, have some good analysis of it where, you know, the whole way they set up their prep was they were like, "Oh, it's just the two of us," and the one super prepper guy was like, "I don't even want friends to come over." And the other guy was like, "Hey, actually, we need to make alliances because there's things they have that we don't. And we also need more than just the two of us because I love you, but I'm gonna kill you." And I think that's something to think about is really moving away from the idea that just your little you know, the utopic queer rural community that so many fucking city queers fantasize about or, you know, lover are going to be enough, because it's not. So that actually leads me to, "I don't have community. Where the fuck do I get it?" And I'm like, yeah, that's super real. Right? And I think it's something I actually wrote about in "The Future is Disabled" is that I have people be like--when I write about different crip communities, just even when I talk about stuff on Facebook.... Like my friend, Graham Bach, it's going to be his second year death anniversary in like two weeks, and he was like, you know, white, psychiatric survivor, super poor, amazing sweetheart of a human being, he died.... I mean, he died in his, you know, rent to your income apartment because he was really afraid to go to the hospital and he had cardiac stuff going on. And he was an anarchist, he was amazing, kind, complicated human being. And, I was writing about, like.... I'm going to tell the story and there's a couple things I want to pull out of it. So I was writing about meeting Graham when I was in my early 20s through radical Mad people community, and somebody was reading it and was like "That sounds so great." And I was like, "Yeah, it wasn't utopic. Like, I had to yell back at Graham because he would scream at me and I'd be like, "Shut the fuck up!" Like, there was so many fights. There was so much racism. There were so many older white cis dudes who had electroshock who were jerky or gross, you know? And I guess that was the thing is, I was like, they're like, "Well, how did you find each other?" And I was like, it wasn't perfect. Also, it was very analog working class. Like my friend Lilith Finkler, who is an amazing Moroccan, Jewish, working-class queer femme psych survivor, she would just go to the donut shop where everybody poor hung out and would talk to everybody who wass there who wass crazy who no one wanted to talk to and be like, "Hey, do you want to come hang out at this meeting at the fucking legal clinic? We have a room. We have a snack plate. I'll give you tokens. Let's organize." So I think that's the first thing is that it's not--and I don't mean this in a finger-wagging way--it's not automatic. And also, one of the really big ways that community is often ableist, and that a lot of us get cut out from it, is that a lot of us who need it the most are not particularly easy to love in ableist neurotypical worldview. It's like we're cranky, we're wounded, we're in a bad mood, we're weird. So a lot of the time, I think it's thinking about, first of all, what's one step, one move you can take towards it. Like, can you make one fucking acquaintance and build it. And really think about what it would mean to build some kind of relationship. I think the other thing that I really want to highlight is that a lot of the communities that I see that keep each other alive, that I'm lucky to have been a part of making and being supported by in disabled community, they're not static and they're not perfect. Like, I have networks with people who piss me the fuck off and who, you know, I've sent 20 bucks to people who I'm just like, "I really don't like you, but I can see that you really don't have food," you know, and we're not going to be friends and we're not going to like each other, but I don't want you to die. And that's not...I mean, it's bigger.... There's also people who I'm like, "Okay, you're my ex-abuser. I'm not gonna give you $5. Someone else can give you $5. **Margaret ** 28:42 There's this person who puts a lot of their effort into talking shit on me on the internet and I...they're also broke and have a lot of chronic health issues and I send them money every month. And every now and then I'm like, could this like...could you stop talking shit now? **Leah ** 29:03 I think this is the thing sometimes is like, hey, how about this is the deal, like maybe just say "Thank you," or maybe just talk shit even like 20% less? Because you know, I'm really doing we keep us safe here. I just really want a "thank you." **Margaret ** 29:16 I don't want you to die. Like, I don't want you to starve to death, but I really wish you would be a little bit more open minded to people having different opinions on yours. **Leah ** 29:26 Oh yeah, nuance, right? Yeah, it'd be fucking nice. **Margaret ** 29:29 God forbid. Anyway. **Leah ** 29:31 No, it's good. I guess my TLDR would be to start where you are and start with "what's one thing you can do? What's one person you can reach out to?" And I think, you know, I don't know if this is true for everyone who reaches out to you and it's like, "Well, I don't have anybody," but I think that social media and online connectivity is a real double-edged sword because for some of us who are isolated, it can create both online communities that can sometimes become in-real-life community and, either way, can be sources of some community or support. But I think.... I mean, you know, I'm a Generation X'er and I've just seen social media get more and more chokehold and just turn into fucking the panopticon meets a mall, you know? [Margaret laughs] And I think it's hard because 12 years ago I was part of really early online disabled spaces, which were great because so many people were like, "Well, I'm so isolated in my small town or in my city," or "I can't leave bed, but this is great. I'm meeting with other people and we're building these connections and it's actually more accessible for me to be real about my stuff from like my bed with a heating pad." And now I just think it's so chokeholded that it's hard for us to find each other. So it's much more common for people to be like, "Wow, I'm seeing all these people who have millions of followers and a shiny brand and I just feel like even more of an isolated loser." And then at the same time, I think people are like, "Well, how did people meet each other before this?" And I was like, "Yeah, like, you go to the coffee shop or the donut shop. You put up a flier. You go to the library. You like, I don't know. I mean, I just remember people I met on the food stamps line, you know, when we got there at six in the morning. And not everything's gonna stick, but maybe something sticks. And I also think about like, I'm going back to 13 years ago in early Disability Justice community spaces where--I mean, I think back to [untranslatable] when I went back to Toronto--which, yeah, big city--but I remember I had so many people come to me and be like, "You're..."--because I was starting to be more out about disability, cuz I was like, "I'm in the Bay and there's these wild people who talk about it and they're not all white people." and so I have so many, especially Black and brown disabled femmes be like, "Hi, you don't really know me, but I have fibromyalgia too," or "I have Lupus too. And like, no one I know talks about that. How do you do it?" And I'm specifically thinking about this time that this person I'm no longer in touch with--but we used to be friends--who's like, you know, queer, brown nonbinary person was like, "Let's just have a meet up of other chronically ill femmes of color," which is how we were identifying a time, and it was four of us, four heating pads, a bottle of Advil, and just very tentatively starting to share things about our lives. And I was like, "Yeah, that was four people." But a lot of that hang out then rippled outward. And it was like, I think it's also important to be like, it's scary to build community. Some tools I want to shut out like, so Mia Mingus, who I mentioned before, she has a lot of really great writing on her blog Leaving Evidence and she created this tool a long time ago now--that some people might be familiar with but for folks who aren't--it's, you know, it's her tool that she calls Pod Mapping. And she actually created it as part of a collective she founded called the Bay Area Transformative Justice Collective that was working on doing transformative justice interventions into intimate violence, specifically childhood sexual abuse a lot of the time, and she had this framework that I find really helpful. She's like, "A lot of..." she was talking about in community accountability, transformative justice spaces and she made a really good point where she's like, "Sometimes we talk about like, 'Yeah, bring in the community. Like, everyone has a community.'" And she's like, "Most people don't have a fucking community, let alone one that can interview in childhood sexual abuse." So she created this tool where she's like, "Let's broaden the idea of what community is." Like, maybe it's that one cousin, that you only talk to once a year, but you could call them in a jam, or it's this hotline, or it is like, yeah, they're a weird church, but you really like their food banks. She's like, "You have to really bring in.... Like, start where you are and do the resource mapping we were talking about" I really liked that tool a lot as a place for people who are like, "What's my community?" because I think it's a big word and really being like, "What does that even mean to me?" and like, "What's one place that can start building it?" And I also want to shout out, Rebel Sydney Black, who's a friend of mine who passed this June, at the beginning of the pandemic, he created this tool called Pod Mapping for Mutual Aid that was specifically aimed at disabled folks who were trying to pod map during Covid--and we can provide the link and stuff like that--but I would say that those are two places to start and then I want to get to alternatives to lying down and dying. And then I'll stop. **Margaret ** 34:04 Okay, wait, wait, before we get to that I want to talk more about the building community thing. **Leah ** 34:08 Yeah, please. **Margaret ** 34:09 I think you brought up a lot of really interesting points. And one of the things that I really like about it, you know, talking about having like...you're broadening the idea of what counts as community, which I think is really useful. And one of the things I realized is that a lot of times when I was younger, I was like, "Y'all say 'community' and you just mean the people that you like," right? And that didn't make any sense to me. Community seems like the people where you have a shared interest, whether the shared interest is you live on the same block, or whether the shared interest is an identity, or whether the shared interest is an interest that you're trying to see change, or whatever. It doesn't mean people you like. It's a different thing. Friends are the people I like, right? Well, mostly. I'm just kidding. I love all of you. I mean, there's a lot of people I love that I don't always like. Anyway, so I don't know, and so I think that one of the things that stuck out with me about what you're gonna say and I want to highlight is the idea that--or maybe I'm misreading it--but like "pick issue to work" around seems like a good useful way. Especially if you struggle to just have friends, right? That's not like the thing that you're good at. But maybe there's a thing that you want to work on? Or having that meetup where it's like, oh, all the following people who have the following things in common, let's meet up and talk about it. Or honestly, activism is a really good way to meet people and work closely with people about things. And it doesn't necessarily have to mean these are now your friends. But they can be people where you rely on each other. And that doesn't have to be the same. I think about it a lot because I live in a fairly isolated and rural environment where there's not a lot of people around me who are culturally.... Whatever, there's not a lot of out, queer people where I live. There's not a lot of punks. And I'm like, that's okay. I talk to my actual neighbors instead. I mean, some of them, not all of them, but most of them, you know, they're who I would rely on in a crisis, because they're right there. It doesn't mean that we have the same ideas about a lot of stuff, you know? But we have similar ideas, like, "Let's not die," right? And so that's enough sometimes. Anyway, I just wanted to.... **Leah ** 36:12 No, I really appreciate it. And I mean that makes me kind of think about, when you were talking, I was like, yeah, you know, there's friends, there's communities, and then there's survival networks, which can include contacts, right? Because I just think about what would I do right now, if some should happened? And I was like, I've got long distance kin and long term friendships and relationships ofvarious kinds and I also have--because I moved to where I live, which is like semi-rural, but definitely more rural than where I've lived before--and I'm just like, yeah, I have a small number of friends. But there's like people who I know who I can...who are neighbors who like, maybe we don't know a shit ton about each other but I could be like, "Hey, this thing?" or "Hey, do you have water?" or, "Hey, let's do this." I think it's a lot about thinking about what are your goals? Is your goal intimacy? Is your goal survival? Is your goal friendship? Because you need different levels of trust and commonality depending on those things, right? I also think, and this is the thing too, I think something.... I think a lot of times because I've had people be like, "Well, I don't have community," also, I've heard that. And I think that a lot of times the context, I hear it in is people being like, "Well, I have care needs, but I don't have any community." So then there's also the really big thorny question of "need" and like being cared for is actually very complicated. It's very risky. It's very vulnerable. It's not safe a lot of the time. It may feel a lot easier to just be like, "I don't have any fucking needs." And so there's a lot, I will just say that there's a lot of unpacking that needs to do around like, "What would I need to be cared for? What are my lower risk needs that I need help with? What are my higher risk needs?" right? Like, there's people who I can.... There's some needs I have where I'm like, I don't need to trust you super, super deep politically or on an intimate level to let you do that. There are certain needs where I'm like, that's only going to be people where we've really built a lot of fucking trust because if this goes sideways you could really stuck with me. Right? And I think that when you're starting from nowhere, I think often where people get stuck is like, "Where I am feels like I have nobody and nothing. And I want to get to like the thing I've read about in your topic science fiction, where you know, it's Star Hawk and everybody loves each other. And how the fuck do I get from A to B." And I think the solution is like, yeah, you're not gonna get to fucking "Fifth Sacred Thing" right away--and that book is complicated. **Margaret ** 38:29 Yeah, It was very influential on my early.... **Leah ** 38:31 Oh yeah, when I was 18, I just wanted to fucking move there. And now I'm like, "Oh God, this is embarrassing. There's some shit in here." I'm like, "Wow, everybody's mixed race, but everyone's Black parents are dead." Wow. Cool. Nobody really thinks about race. I'm like, I'm gonna throw up. And like, you know, BDSM is just violent....Okay, sorry. We're not going to get into that. **Margaret ** 38:47 Oh my God, I don't remember that part. **Leah ** 38:49 Oh, yeah. No, where it's so violent. Like, "We're just loving." And I wrote a really no passion paper for school, because we actually had to read it in a college class I was in, and I was like, "Why are they not into leather sexuality?" And my professor was like, "Okay, 18 year old..." but yeah. **Margaret ** 39:04 I mean, legit. You 18 year old self had a legitimate critique. **Margaret ** 39:08 Yeah. **Leah ** 39:08 Yeah, no, there's a lot there. But, um, but jumping back, I guess it's just like, you know.... And I think this feels like disabled wisdom too, it's like, what can you do with the spoons or the capacity you have? Like, what's one move you can make that small? And then can you build on that? Yeah, but can I talk about alternatives to lying down and dying? **Leah ** 39:28 Yeah. Well, I think...I mean, this is the thing, is like, I'm a survivalist, but I'm not like anti-civilization in the ways that some people are. Like, I want meds, you know? And I think that's something that other crips I know talk about a lot, which is like, you know, we're really against this way that some people, including some people who would like align themselves with like Healing Justice who are like "We're like, oh, yeah, we just have to go back before colonialism and capitalism, and just everyone lived on herbs and it was great." and I was like, "Nah, bitch, I need surgery and meds." Like I want it all. Like, I love non-Western pre-colonial traditional healing. Absolutely. And I've had friends who died because they didn't get their surgeries on time. Like my friend LL died because nobody would give him a fucking kidney because they said he was too fat. And I'm just like, my good future involves.... I mean, and he's one of millions right? So like, my good future involves that we have surgical suites. And I'm just like, you know, honestly, also, a lot of times that worldview just seems so white to me, because I'm just like, listen, a lot of like, global south places figure out how to have field hospitals, right, in really dire and low-resource situations. So I'm sorry.... **Margaret ** 40:40 I mean, only Europoe's ever figured out surgery. No one else has done surgery until Europe showed up. [Said sarcastically implying the opposite] **Leah ** 40:45 Yeah, not fucking ever. [Also said sarcastically] **Margaret ** 40:46 Said the people who are like, "bite down stick and I'll saw your arm off." **Leah ** 40:49 Yeah, so I mean, I guess one thing I would just say is like, I would say that and I would say like, you know, really...I want to like lift up and encourage people to look at--and they can be hard to find--but look at cultures, look at organizing initiatives where people were like, "We can have our own ambulance, we can have our own like..." And when that's not there, to think about what it would mean to have medical care after the apocalypse, right? What would it mean to make hormones, make drugs, synthesize chemicals, and it's not impossible. I think that we're still in the in between of like, okay, we gotta figure out how to do that. But, um, you know, I'm thinking about, Ejeris Dixon, who's my friend and comrade, and, you know, we co-edited "Beyond Survival" together, which is a book we wrote that came out right at the beginning of the pandemic about stories and strategies from how people are actually trying to create safety without the cops. Ejeris always talks about how they were like, "Yeah, like, in Louisiana, you know, in the South, you know, like in the 50s, and 60s, and before I believe, there were all kinds of Black run ambulance and 911 services," because regular 911 wouldn't come to Black communities. Right? And they, I mean, something that I've heard them say a lot over the years is like, "We don't have the people's ambulance yet. But we could." And then it makes me also jump to some friends of mine who were in Seattle who were really active as street medic crew during the rebellions after George George Floyd was murdered by the police in, you know, 2020 in the summer, and specifically in, as some people remember, Seattle managed to have 16 square blocks break off from the city for a while, CHOP, Capitol Hill Organized Front. And so what people don't know is that the cops were like, "Okay, fuck you. We're not going to...If there's any 911 ambulance calls, we're not going to fucking let anyone go in there." So the street medic crew had to deal with a lot of really intense situations. And then after that, like a lot of us folks, like some folks were already nurses or EMTs and a lot of folks who were involved went to nursing school or EMT school and we're like--and I don't know where it's at now--but they were like, "We want to create,"--because right now in Seattle, there's, if somebody is having a crisis on the street, like a medical or a mental health crisis or an altered state crisis, there's no non-911 crisis response that you can call. There's either you go down the stairs to talk to somebody or there's the cops, right. And they were like, "We can get a van. We can get medical equipment from eBay." And you know, I don't know where they're at with that, but they were really organizing around like, "Yeah, we could get a defibrillator. We could get oxygen. We could get blood pressure cuffs. We could get fucking..." you know? And I think that that shit gets complicated in terms of insurance and regulation and the State and the medical industrial complex, but I want us to keep thinking about that. I also, and then I'll wrap up because we have other questions to get to, but it also makes me think about, I mean, I don't know if folks are familiar with Gretchen Felker Martin's amazing science fiction book "Manhunt," right, which is about.... **Margaret ** 43:50 I haven't read it yet. **Leah ** 43:52 It's so fucking good. Okay, so I won't give it away. But just for people who don't know, I'd say it's the one kind of gender sci-fi book where "Oh, a virus, you know, affects people with certain chromosomes or certain that dih-dah-dug that's not TERFy because it's a book that, you know, she's trans, and it's a book that centers trans women and nonbinary communities and there's like one or two trans masculine characters. But the two main trans femme, like trans women characters in the book, they're like, they have to, they're like, "Yeah, like, we're going on raids to get, you know, hormones, and, you know, different, like chemical drugs we need. And we're also figuring out how to synthesize them from herbs and different substances." And it's not easy. It's a struggle. But there are organized communities of trans women and allies that are fighting to do it. And I'm just like, yeah, and I mean, it's an amazingly well written book, and she's incredible, and I fucking loved it. And it's just beautifully written and really just--sorry, I won't gush too much but go read it, it's incredible--I just really also appreciated it because she was like, "Yeah, of course we're gonna get our hormones after the end of the world. Like of course it's possible." And I will also.... I have some criticisms of the ableism in it, but M.E. O'Brien and--fuck I'm forgetting the second author's name, but every you know, "Everything For Everyone," that book. I appreciated how in the good future society, they're like, "Our priority is making sure that insulin and chemical drugs and hormones are accessible and free to everybody." And I was like, I guess I would just push people towards there are ways of imagining the future where we can defeat capitalism but still have medical care of all kinds. We can have Reiki and acupuncture and we can also hormone surgery and transplants. And we might be doing it better because it's not controlled by fucking corporations and assholes. Sorry, that's my soapbox. Um, okay. I will say in terms of people being like, "That's really nice. But what about me?" I would be like, you know, I mean, right now in the war on trans America, there are so many people already who are like, "Yeah, I'm stockpiling meds. I like doing meds trading." I would say it goes back to what we started about, which is like, "Okay, what are your needs? What are the things that you're worried will not be there if the world ends?" Right? And we also need to recognize that the world's already ending and it's ended for some of us a bunch of times already. But I would be like, make that list and then really be like, "Alright, how do I get it?" You know, and if I can't specifically get it, are there like backups that I can get? And it may be stuff that you can research on your own. It also might be stuff where it's like, "Okay, are there trans [untranslatable], disability justice organizations, nationally, globally, locally, that you can hit up and be like, "What are folks thoughts about this? Are there ways that we can resource share?" Because I think it's about pills. I think it's also about durable medical equipment. So in terms of stuff that requires power to live, I think about generators and I think about generator shares. And I think about things like...there's a story when Hurricane Sandy hit New York 10 years ago, there were a whole bunch of us where...there's a guy Nick who's in community who, physically disabled guy, 13th floor, accessible apartment, you know, the lights went out, you know, really dependent on electricity to change out the batteries on his ventilator. There's a whole crew of disabled folks, like people walked up and down those fucking stairs every eight hours to take the spent batteries, figured out, "Hey, you know, what still has power, the fucking fire department." People were walking down recharging the batteries every eight hours. And it was allies, it was ambulatory, it was disabled people who could walk. It was fucking hard. But people were like, we're not.... Nick and his friends were like, "We're not just going to die. We're needed." So I wanna shoutout that and just for possibility modeling, I really want to, one other place I want to shout out, is an org that used to be known as Portlight but was now known as the Center for Inclusive Disaster Strategies, which is a disabled-led organization that is about like, yeah, when there's a climate or other disaster, they figure out ways of getting like accessible fucking evacuation methods to places because they know...we know, there's millions of examples of people who are just left to die in nursing homes or like, "Oops, the bus doesn't have a ramp," or, you know, I really want to name that during Katrina, some people might know about, you know, the situation with the nursing home that was there were a lot of folks who were wheelchair users or had high care needs were fucking killed by medical staff because the medical staff were like, "We're gonna actually euthanize these folks without their knowledge or consent." [Margaret exclaims] Yeah, no, there was actually a movie on HBO about it I think semi recently. Because "that's easier than figuring out how to fucking get people in the medivac ," right? Yeah, and so the Partnership for Inclusive Disaster Strategies, I'm still getting to know them, but I have friends who are involved and they're like, "Yeah, we're aware this is an issue." So yeah, let's work with the fucking Cajun fucking Navy to like make sure that you can get folks with different bodies onto evac boats. Like let's figure out what disabled survival looks like. And I will just say, and this is the last thing I swear, for me, I mean, we all know water is important. Like, I can't lift 54 pounds. Guess what? So can't--which is, you know, a seven gallon right, like a five or seven gallon whatever--I'm just like, yeah, so I can actually have smaller jugs of water that I can lift. So yeah, I have a bug out plan, but I also have a real Shelter in Place plan because I'm just like, yeah, my apartment's accessible for me. So yeah, I got a shit ton of water right here and I'll be good for a while. And I also have a plan B for.... Okay, there's...I've got my filtration equipment, so when that runs out, I'm close to some water sources where I can go and I can filter that shit. And that's me thinking about what works for my body. Think about what works for yours and then plan out from that. Okay, I'll really stop talking now. **Margaret ** 49:44 No, no, but there's so much there. Even just like to go to the weight of water, right? The thing that I ran across that I'm like--I'm reasonably able-bodied and such like that, right--but I live alone and so obviously there's this specific thing where like.... Well, one, I mean, abledness is always a temporary position.... **Leah ** 50:04 Yeah, you're going to get disabled, you're gonna get sick and disabled. **Margaret ** 50:07 Like it literally happens to--unless you, I don't know, die very quickly, very suddenly, probably violently, you're gonna go through a period of disability in your life, you know? And so my argument is that machismo is anti-prepping. And one of the ways that I would say is that like, there's now, I think.... Okay, so cement bags, they come in 50 pound bags traditionally, right? But now there's more and more, I think, there seems to be more and more 30 pound bags, right? And I used to be like, "Oh, whatever, I can lift a 50 pound bag. So I should carry the 50 pound bag." And then I'm like, well, it was not a helpful way to look at it. It is far better for me to just have 30 pound bags of cement because they're easier to carry and I'll get tired less. And I, you know, at the time that I was pouring these bags, I lived up a hill about probably the equivalent of a seven storey walk up to this cabin that I was building, right. And so I had to carry each and every one. It was way nicer that I carry 30 pound bags. And if your preparedness doesn't include the fact that your level of ability will change in different situations, then it's not very good preparedness. And and so like, I don't know, I mean, like most of my water jugs are four or five gallon jugs. I use jerry cans. I think most of them are five gallon. And I hate the six gallon ones and the seven gallon ones. They're just heavy and annoying. And it's like I can give lift them but there's no reason why I should. Unless I'm specifically working on lifting weights. And then the other thing that you talked about that I really think about a lot, you know, is this idea, of does your version of disaster mean that every doctor dies? Or like, does your version of disaster mean everyone who's ever made insulin dies? Like, it's possible. Sure, you could have 90...if almost everyone on Earth dies, then everything is a little different. But most disasters don't actually..... Most disasters destroy ways of living and large numbers of people, but not the majority of people write. Most people survive most disasters. And, people are like, "Well, our organizational systems are what produce insulin," and like, no, people produce insulin and they use organizational systems with which to do it. But different organizational systems can also produce insulin. Like different organizational systems can use the same infrastructure sometimes and make the things that we rely on. And it came up with this like whole thing where people on the internet were like, "Ah, if you're an anarchist, you hate disabled people because in anarchy, you can't have insulin," **Leah ** 50:28 That's gross. **Margaret ** 52:40 It is a complete misunderstanding of anarchism. It is not a lack of organization, it is a different type of organization. **Leah ** 52:46 Anarchy is responsibility. **Margaret ** 52:48 Yes, totally. **Leah ** 52:50 Sorry, sorry. **Margaret ** 52:52 That's why people don't like it. People are afraid of it because they actually have to.... It's the accepting no one is coming to save us except us. You know? No, I love that way of framing and it also annoys anarchists when you tell them this too. **Leah ** 53:07 Okay, well, I mean, you know, so I worked at Modern Times books, which was, you know, is no longer around, but was a long time anarchists and anti authoritarian radical bookstore in the Bay. And we had the only public toilet in all of the Mission because everybody else was like, "No, you gotta buy something." and in my interview, they're like, "How will you make the store better?" And I was like, "I will make the bathroom not smell horrible." Because, you know, it was just like a bust, everyone was pissing in there. And so I taped up a sign that said "Anarchy is responsibility. If you spray the fucking toilet with urine, please wipe it up. Together we can have a toilet." And somebody called me out and was like, "That's capitalist." And I was like, "No, just wipe your piss up or we're not gonna make the revolution. Like, come on." But yeah, they got pissed at me about that. [Both laugh] But yeah, I mean, I think that's a really good point. And it's like, you know, I mean, I think that it does point to, you know, I think a structural problem in a lot of our movements, which is like, yeah, we don't we need more people who know some basics of chemistry and can synthesize stuff. Like, that's, you know, we need more people who've gone to some kind of science or engineering school who can figure out how sewage works and how you synthesize insulin and how you synthesize hormones and like, basic surgery. And I think there's a lot of hopefulness because I--maybe it's just the folks I hang out with--but I have a fair number of friends who are like, "Yeah, I'm gonna be a nurse practitioner. I can give you an abortion. I can sew up your wound. I can help you figure out this thing." And I'd love for there to be more of us who can go to PA school or