Podcasts about theology psychology

This month, we're bringing back three of our most popular conversations from last year, featuring some incredible guests. Whether you've heard them before or not, we invite you to listen, reflect, and perhaps share them with a friend. This first episode in our summer replay series is a conversation with a dear friend, author, and alumnus of The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, Matthias Roberts.  Last fall, Matthias joined Dan and Rachael to discuss his latest book, "Holy Runaways." (If you haven't read it yet, we recommend that you add it to your summer reading list!) Dan and Rachael chatted with Matthias about religious trauma and the hope of moving forward with a commitment to truth, deep listening, and compassion. Listener Resources: Pick up your copy of Holy Runaways by Matthias Roberts here. Listen to more episodes on the topic of spiritual abuse and healing on this curated Spotify playlist: Podcasts on Spiritual Abuse & Healing

Today we're reposting an older interview with Dr. Dan Allender. Dr Allender is a renowned psychologist, author, and educator who has pioneered an innovative approach to trauma and abuse therapy over the past 30 years. He is the founder of The Allender Center and a professor of Counseling Psychology at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. And while the sound quality of this interview is a little rough, we think you'll appreciate his insights and perspective all the same. For more parenting resources, go to axis.org 

The way you parent stems from how you were parented. That's why understanding the stories and trauma of your past is essential if you want to provide a secure beginning for your children. In this episode, Dr. Dan Allender offers expert advice to help you own the past, share your stories with others, and find beauty along the parenting journey.      Key Takeaways   A child has a secure beginning if they have attunement, containment, and a parent who can repair ruptures.  The level of failure in parenting is higher than in marriage, friendships, or work.  When you're triggered, take a 90-second pause to decrease emotional flooding.  There are two great callings in life that you must hold together at the same time: to grow in intimacy and to grow in independence.  Write down your thoughts and then share them with your wife, a group of men, and a story guide, such as a therapist or pastor.   Dr. Dan Allender   Dr. Dan Allender is an author, professor, and co-founder of The Allender Center and The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. With a unique approach to trauma and abuse therapy, he presents on topics such as sexual abuse recovery, intimacy, marriage, and more. Dan and his wife, Becky, enjoy spending time with their three adult children and their grandchildren.   Key Quotes   4:58 - "It's really a sweet gift to be able to see our children parent in a way in which they have truly learned from our mistakes, and yet they've also developed their own way of being in the world. Having adult children, one of the realities that dawns on me virtually every year and that is you're never done. Some of the most complicated days are with adult children. And yet our children love us, and yet they are pretty clear and vocal about where they have felt like we have not done well, past and present, and with a deep invitation, with honor and forgiveness, but to grow. That's one of the things I would say it's just such a life giving presence when your children are taking in your life and growing, but when they have the ability to return that, to invite you to grow, that even with younger children has a level of mutuality that often [doesn't] get talked about in the parenting process." 37:36 - "The reality is, we live in a sinful world and a broken world as already with a proclivity to our own false independence. So, our task, is in some sense, to parent in a way that accentuates the giftedness, while also helping a child name and engage the parts of their own world that don't come as quickly or naturally.   Links from Today's Conversation   Become a DadAwesome Anchor Partner The Allender Center Podcast  “Parenting the Parent” — Dr. Dan Allender's podcast episode featuring his two daughters Dr. Dan Allender's Books StoryWork Conference and Master Class The Allender Center Upcoming Events and Workshops   Connect with dadAWESOME   Make a Donation to dadAWESOME Join the dadAWESOME Prayer Team Receive weekly encouragement by texting "dad" to 651-370-8618  

As you anticipate and prepare for your holiday feast, we invite you to pull up a seat at our table to discuss the rich sensuality of the aromas, flavors, and sounds that are embedded in the festive season.  Joining us for this discussion is Lauren Peiser, the Manager of Partnerships at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Today, however, we affectionately dub her our "resident gastronomist" on account of her passion for the enjoyment of good food and drink. This conversation not only explores the pleasure of a good meal but also delves into the theological aspects of the table and our relationship with food, drink, and the company of others. We hope you enjoy this delightful conversation as much as we did. Merry Christmas, friends.  

In a time when divisions seem to define us, can we still foster meaningful conversations capable of driving real change? In anticipation of the upcoming virtual summit, “Seattle School Connect 2023: Discourse,” we're exploring the intricacies and challenges of engaging in discourse with Dr. J. Derek McNeil, President and Provost of The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Discourse isn't simply having a conversation; it's a transformative dialogue that can impact and change us. In this episode hosted by Rachael Clinton Chen, Derek McNeil walks us through some of the challenges we face in a world filled with polarization, trauma, the influence of technology, and much more. He also delineates some of the essential elements necessary for authentic discourse to thrive, emphasizing the creation of intentional and sacred spaces where curiosity and empathetic understanding can truly flourish. We hope you'll join us for Seattle School Connect 2023: Discourse, a free virtual summit kicking off this fall. This series is designed to engage in challenging discussions in order to enhance our capacity to serve God and neighbor through transforming relationships. The inaugural event hosted by The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology is centered around the art of discourse, focusing on pertinent cultural topics. With a lineup of 6 live conversations, we aim to explore the practice of constructive conversations while embodying values of humility and hospitality. By engaging in these discussions, attendees will gain insights into bridging gaps, confronting personal assumptions, and building relationships grounded in empathy and growth. Registration is free and open to all. Learn more at https://theseattleschool.edu/event/connect2023/

In this episode, we explore a new perspective on church with Dr. Dwight Friesen, who asks us: "How do I start where I am? Wherever I am, how do I discover being church here?" Instead of viewing church as a megachurch attracting distant members, we shift our focus to being church in our own context. We're honored to be joined by Dr. Dwight Friesen, an Associate Professor of practical theology at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, who is dedicated to rediscovering the true essence of being a church within a specific place and neighborhood.   To provide some context, Dwight shares his initial connection with Mark Driscoll, the founder of Mars Hill, during the mid-1990s when they were both starting as pastors in Seattle. They even considered merging their churches at one point, but theological differences and subsequent events led them to go their separate ways.   While Mark Driscoll went on to build a megachurch at Mars Hill, Dwight and his partner Lynette took a different approach. They emphasized the significance of community, proximity, and actively listening to the needs of their neighborhood. Instead of imposing a predetermined "church model," Dwight deliberately focused on understanding and addressing the specific needs of their immediate community.   This conversation challenges the traditional megachurch model, which often relies heavily on attracting new members for economic prosperity. Instead, it encourages us to explore how to be church in our current contexts and locations. By paying attention to the culture and listening to the needs of people in our own neighborhoods, we can bear witness to systemic forms of oppression and transformation. This awareness calls for a different kind of faithfulness—an active presence that engages with the realities of the moment.   Dwight raises a thought-provoking question: "How do we discover what it means to participate in what God is doing here without assuming what the good news should look like, but rather being open to discovery?"  

As we continue to examine the case study that is Mars Hill Church, we're asking a couple of questions in this conversation:  First, how do we create faith communities that know what abuses of power look like and call those behaviors out?  And second, how do we build environments that seek to be psychologically healthy for everyone? Our guest this week is Doug Shirley, EdD, core faculty with The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology with expertise in counseling, Divinity, and pastoral community counseling. Doug's passion lies in understanding and improving the emotional, relational, and spiritual lives of individuals in helping and healing professions. The sheer number of individuals seeking help for mental health issues following the Mars Hill debacle underscores the unhealthy nature of the church environment. Our conversation explores strategies for creating psychologically healthy spaces within faith communities, emphasizing the importance of two-way dialogue, accountability, openness, and honesty.  Listener resources: This conversation references: Finite and Infinite Games by James Carse; The Priest in Community by Urban T. Holmes, III; The Emotionally Healthy Leader by Peter Scazzero; Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer; Trauma and Recovery and Truth and Repair by Judith Herman, MD; the words and thoughts of Dr. Steve Call from The Reconnect Institute, Nadia Bolz-Weber, Resmaa Menakem, Brian McLaren, Dr. Tali Hariston, and Parker Palmer. If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.  

On this episode: Nate is home, energized, and has internet. Aaron announces all the announcements. Our Guest: Wendell Moss: therapist, minister, educator, and speaker. There is not always a side to take - just listen. Sometimes the response to abuse is more abusive than the abuse itself. My feast will never fulfill you. Upcoming Events: 48 hours of Frankness (Illinois), Walking The Path in England (June 11-17, 2023) Links: Wendell at the Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, Wendell at the Allender Center   If you have thoughts or questions that you'd like the guys to address in upcoming episodes or suggestions for future guests, please drop a note to piratemonkpodcast@gmail.com.   The music on this podcast is contributed by members of the Samson Society. For more information on this ministry, please visit samsonsociety.com.  Support for the women in our lives who have been impacted by our choices is available at sarahsociety.com. The Pirate Monk Podcast is provided by Samson Society, a ministry of Samson House, a 501(c)3 nonprofit. To enjoy future Pirate Monk podcasts, please consider a contribution to Samson House.

We're starting a new series on the podcast about organizational identity - a topic that, co-host Dr. J. Derek McNeil admits at the beginning of this episode - can sound somewhat dry. But here's why it's important:   Most of us have some sense of our personal identities. But when you're leading a group of people, whether that's a small town congregation or a multinational corporation, you as a leader need to consider your group's collective identity.    When a group discovers their organizational identity, its members can unite behind a common purpose and shared goals to confront problems, engage challenges, and make real impact – together.    In this first episode of Season 3, Dr. J. Derek McNeil, President of The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, and Kate Rae Davis, MDiv, Director of the Center for Transforming Engagement, discuss their work in supporting churches in their work to discover their organizational identity. In the midst of shifting contexts, this work is more important than ever. What is the mission of your church? What are you called to be? Who belongs to your church - and how are you creating a sense of belonging for them?   If you are the leader of a church or faith-based organization working to re-discover your church's identity and serve your congregants and community better, we think this episode will be especially valuable to you.    As you listen to this season, please let us know what you think. We value your thoughts and questions!

Usually, Stephanie and Dan interview our guests together on NDCC, but today Dr. Holmes interviews Andrew J. Bauman on "Becoming a good and safe man." Andrew outlines points from his book with the same title on what to do if your spouse has come to you and said she feels abused or traumatized, or emotionally abandoned. We also speak about the damage porn does to the person struggling with porn use and the damage to the spouse and marriage. About Andrew:Andrew J. Bauman, Co-Founder & Director of the Christian Counseling Center: For Sexual Health & Trauma (CCC), Andrew J. Bauman is a licensed mental health counselor with a Master of Arts in Counseling Psychology from The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. He spent 10 years studying under and working alongside Dr. Dan Allender. Andrew is the author of Floating Away, Stumbling Toward Wholeness, The Psychology of Porn, and (with his wife, Christy) A Brave Lament. You can find his work and blogs at:https://andrewjbauman.com/https://christiancc.org/https://www.amazon.com/How-Not-Be-SS-Becoming/dp/B09PHL68F1

On this episode of Melody and Friends, Melody is speaking with Author Sharon Hersh to speak about Ambivalence and The Holidays. Sharon defines what ambivalence around the holidays looks like and how ambivalence has affected her personally during the holiday season. The Christmas season especially will often highlight a tail of two emotions, one of bright, joyous emotions as we celebrate with our family and one of somberness and grief for tragedies that have happened. She also breaks down that emotional low we can experience after the highs of celebrating the holidays has passed and what we can do to work through those feelings of ambivalence. Sharon also shares how we can attune our hearts to the love of Christ each Christmas as we walk through those feelings of ambivalence. She explains we have to have an invitational heart that give myself permission to keep healing and admit that we need to keep healing. Who is Sharon Hersh? Sharon is a sought-after speaker for conferences, retreats, seminars, classes, trainings, or workshops. She loves to speak any where in the world — to a group of 2 or 2,000.  Sharon taught as Adjunct Faculty at Reformed Theological Seminary, Colorado Christian University, Denver Seminary, Denver University, Metropolitan State University of Denver, and The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology in both under-graduate and graduate counseling courses.  Other subjects Sharon loves to speak on include the courage to abandon ourselves and belong to each other; addiction and life beyond addiction; finding the landmarks of faith, hope, and love in our stories; knowing your sexual ethic – for adolescents, adults, and parents; healing trauma, and self-compassion for caregivers. Sharon also provides individual counseling for adolescents and adults on a weekly or bi-monthly basis or in the form of intensives (3-4 days of hard work, blood, sweat and tears that is oh, so worth it!). Intensives can include EMDR, somatic therapy, and psychodrama. Call 720-530-1225 for scheduling and pricing. Things We Talk About In This Episode: What is ambivalence and what does it look like around the holidays? Why do we not do well with dual feelings and what can we do about it? Why is creating an invitational heart so important for ambivalence during the holidays? How can we allow things to change in our lives in a way that doesn't creat ambivalence around Christmas? We encourage you to check out Sharon's books The Last Addiction (www.barnesandnoble.com/w/last-addiction-sharon-hersh/1100618546) and Belonging (www.christianbook.com/belonging-finding-way-back-one-another/sharon-hersh/9781631469602/pd/469606) Our listeners can also learn more about Sharon's resources, books and much more at the link here: www.sharonhersh.com Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Melody and Friends! If you haven't already please take the time to leave us a rating and review on our iTunes page as it helps us get more great episodes like this to you!

 Bios:Ernest Gray Jr. is the pastor of Keystone Baptist Church located in the West Garfield Park neighborhood of Chicago.  He is a graduate of the Moody Bible Institute with a degree in Pastoral Ministries, and a graduate of Wheaton College with a Master's Degree in Biblical Exegesis.  He completed his PhD coursework at McMaster Divinity College and is currently completing his thesis within the corpus of 1 Peter. Mr. Gray has taught in undergraduate school of Moody in the areas of Hermeneutics, first year Greek Grammar, General Epistles, the Gospel of John and Senior Seminar. It is Mr. Gray's hope to impact the African American church  through scholarship. Teaching has been one way that God has blessed him to live this out.  Ernest is also co-host of the newly released podcast Just Gospel with an emphasis upon reading today's social and racial injustices through a gospel lens. www.moodyradio.org    Jen Oyama Murphy  "My love of good stories led me to Yale University where I received a BA in English. Upon graduation, I felt called to bring individual stories into relationship with the Gospel Story, and I have worked in the areas of campus and church ministry, lay counseling, and pastoral care since 1989. Over the years, I sought a variety of ongoing education and training in the fields of psychology and theology, including graduate classes at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology and Benedictine University. I also completed the Training Certificate and Externship programs at The Allender Center, and I previously held roles on their Training and Pastoral Care Team, as Manager of Leadership Development, and most recently as the Senior Director of The Allender Center. Believing that healing and growth happens in the context of relationship, I work collaboratively to create a safe coaching space of curiosity and kindness where honesty, care, desire, and imagination can grow. Using my experience and expertise in a trauma-informed, narrative-focused approach, I seek to help people live the story they were most meant for and heal from the ones they were not. I am passionate about personal support and development, particularly for leaders in nonprofit or ministry settings, including lay leaders who may not have a formal title or position. I'm especially committed to engaging the personal and collective stories of those who have felt invisible, marginalized, and oppressed. I love facilitating groups as well as working individually with people. I currently live in Chicago with my husband, and we have two adult daughters.Rebecca Wheeler Walston lives in Virginia, has completed  Law School at UCLA, holds a Master's in Marriage and Family Counseling, is also a licensed minister. Specializing in advising non-profits and small businesses. Specialties: providing the legal underpinning for start-up nonprofits and small businesses, advising nonprofit boards, 501c3 compliance, creating and reviewing business contracts.TJ PoonDr. Ernest Gray (00:41:40):Absolutely. Absolutely. There will be stories told in the next five, no, two or three years now about, this is the fascinating thing I'm trying to wrap my mind around is that it is this, I need to do a more research upon the Ukrainian Russian thing wherein you have, um, my ignorance, you have an apparent Eastern European, you have, uh, you know, have an eastern European kind of, this isn't anything about pigment autocracy, but culturally, I'm op I'm opposed to you because you have Russian descent, and I'm a Ukrainian descent. So upon the, upon the outside, it's not anything that has to do with the, with the merits of, of, of, uh, racial, racial, a racialized racialization. It has more to do with the cultural, um, ethnicity kind of, um, indicatives that create this hostility between the two. And to hear the atrocities that are ongoing right now against, you know, each o against the, the Ukrainian Russian conflict, right now, we're gonna hear about those things and, and, and hear just how egregious they are or whether it's the, um, the tusks and the Hutus in the Rwandan conflict, or whether it's the Bosnians versus the, um, the Serbians. I mean, there's gonna be a lot of that. There's, we, we find that these things occur, um, and that, and that it's, it's all because of these notions of superiority and, and tools of the enemy in order to, to, to divide and conquer. Um, and then coupled with power create, you know, devastating effects. I, I I, I, I think that there's a, um, there's a, there's a, the, the collectivist idea of seeing us all in the same boat with various facets is something that we need to strive. It's not easy to always to do. Um, but it's gotta happen. If we're going to create a, a better human, if we're not creative, if the Lord is gonna work in a way to, to help us, uh, move toward a better humanity, one that is at least honoring may not happen in our lifetime, may not happen until we see the Lord face to face. But at the same time, that's the work that we're, I'm called to is to be, uh, or, you know, to, to be the embodiment of some type of re repa posture, um, modeling for others what it could look like. Danielle (00:44:19):Sure. Yeah. Um, Rebecca and I put this in here, Hurt versus harm. Um, hurt being, and, and again, these, these are definitions coming from us, so I recognize that other people may have a different view and we can talk about that. Um, hurt being in, in, when Rebecca and I were talking about it inevitable in any relationship may cause painful feelings and hurt someone's feelings. Um, harm violating a person's dignity, and it takes energy non consensually from someone So how do individual hurts add to or cement structural power structures and our perspective and experience of harm? How do individual hurts add to or cement structural power structures and our perspective and experience of, of them? Dr. Ernest Gray (00:45:31):Yeah. Um, it's cuz you've got muscle memory hurt, um, over and over and over and over and over of sorts provides a muscle memory, a knee jerk, a kind of , Oh, this is familiar, here we go again. Ow. So I think that's one way, I'll, I'll step back now, but I think that, that it's the body that maintains a powerful memory of the feeling and it feels, and it's gonna be a familiar kind of triggering slash re-injury that until it's interrupted, can create, can see this as, um, broadly speaking, a a, a more, um, yeah, a reoccurring thing that is, that needs to be interrupted. TJ Poon(00:46:27):I'm really mindful of this in my relationships because there's a lot of horror from white people, from white women towards different communities. And so, like in my relationships, you, there's a, there's a mindfulness of like, maybe we have a disruption and at the level of me and this other person, it is a hurt, but it, it reinforces a harm that they've experienced or it feels like, um, feels similar to. And so it's not like we, I it's not like we opt, we can opt out. Like it can't opt out of that collective narrative. I can't say, Oh, well I'm just, you know, this one person. Um, so I, I think that is complex because the individual hurts do contribute. They feel like what Dr. Gray was saying, like it is muscle memory. It's some sometimes where something can feel or just reinforce, I guess, um, what has already happened to us in contexts. Jen Oyama Murphy (00:47:36):I mean, I think the complexity of the relationship between hurt and harm, um, contributes to how hard it can be to actually have meaningful repair. Because I, my experience sometimes, and I, I know I do this myself, that I will lean into the hurt and apologize or try to do repair on a personal one to one level and somehow feel like if I do that, it will also, it also repairs the harm. And that doesn't, that's, that's not true. I mean, it can perhaps contribute to a restorative process or a repair process around the harm, but Right. Just me, um, in charge of a small group repairing for a particular hurt that may have happened in the small group doesn't necessarily address the structure, the system that put that small group together, the content that's being taught, you know, the, the opportunity for those participants to even be in the program, Right. That there is something that's happening at a, at a harm level, um, that my personal apology for something that I did that hurt someone in the group isn't actually addressing. But we can hope that it does or act like it does or even have the expectation, um, that it will. And so the, I love the new, the nuance or the, the clarity between the two definitions that you guys are, um, asking us to wrestle with. I think that's, that's good's making me think just for myself. Like where do I go first, you know, out of my own, um, training or naivete or just like wishful thing, thinking that, that I can't repair systemic harm by apologizing or repairing like a personal hurt. Danielle (00:49:36):Um, I mean, Jen, I've been wrestling with that and, and when I, when I, in my experience, when someone apologizes to me, and I know they're apologizing for personal hurt, but I feel like they haven't said in, in, in a way I can understand often I'm not understanding how do I actually get out of this so we're not pitted against each other again. Mm-hmm. , when I feel trapped in that space and I receive an apology, I often, I, I feel more angry even at, even if I know the person sincerely apologizing, if I'm telling a more true story to you all as a Latinx person, and I've noticed this in my family, I receive the apology, and yet when I have to continue to function in the system, I am more angry afterwards. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , there's a frustration that happens, which then of course is bottled down and it, I often talk to my clients about this, but I was talking to my husband about it. It's like we threw all this stuff in the pressure cooker cuz we do a lot of pressure cooking and put a plastic lid on it. And now the s h I t spread sideways. And that's kind of how it feels when we, now I'm not saying we can do this perfectly or I even know how to do it, but when we address hurt, that's part of systemic harm without addressing the system. I think in my experience, it feels like I'm feeling my own pressure cooker mm-hmm. and I'm not able to contain the spray at different times. Mm-hmm. . Dr. Ernest Gray (00:51:20):Yeah. I think I think about for, I think about for me, the, my, my the, you know, systemizing, systematizing the way in which I associate things, what the right environment, the way in which my, you know, my senses have associated things. I'll have dejavu because I had a certain smell from my childhood and it'll, it could be triggering, right? I smell something and I'm like, Oh man, that reminds me of this moment. All that categorization to me tells me how my brain functions and how mm-hmm. associative. Mm-hmm. , it is for instances, smells, places, um, things that occur. And it's, it's the, it's the ongoing sense of that, especially if we've come out of, um, houses or, um, families where this was it, it was normative for us to experience these things on a regular basis so that any, any hint of it elsewhere outside of that, outside of the confines of that can reignite that same kind of shallow breathing and response. And I don't wanna, um, but, but definitely the advancing of hurt versus harm. It, it, it, the harm the those in whatever that instance is that creates, that, that response outta me lets me know that more that it is, it was the ongoing nature of those things which created the harm. Um, and so it almost asks, I it's first acknowledgement and then secondly saying, What do I need to do to take care of myself in this instance? Where do I need to go? What do I need to give myself in this moment so that I'm not going down this road of, here we go again. I'm in a corner . I don't wanna do that. I don't wanna kind of check out. But, um, I think about the west side of Chicago where I'm ministering, um, and I'm thinking about, you know, just this community that it doesn't really affect them. It, it really doesn't to hear gunshots, to hear, um, to hear, uh, sirens and things like that. These are everyday occurrence so that the, so that the, so that the ongoing nature of what they're used to just has evolved into this kind of numbing sense. But I, but I guess in going back, it is interrupting that, that delicate, um, sequence of events so that it does not cause me to shut down in that moment that I've, that I'm still learning how to do for myself. Right. And I think that in our interpersonal relationships, especially, here's where it meets the road, is in our interpersonal, or even our most intimate relationships, the ongoing hurt and does eventually, uh, you know, cross the line into harm because it has taken away the energy out of that, out of the other person, uh, or or out of us. Um, after such a long time after repeated, repeated instances. Rebecca W. Walston (00:54:31):I, I think what I think I'm hearing everybody alludes this sense of like, can there be an awareness of, of the, where the interpersonal and the individual kind of collides with the collective and the systemic, right? And, and just a more complex understanding of how any incident, however big or small the rupture is. Where is the interplay of those two things? So, so that a comment between two people can actually have this impact that's far more and reverberates with the kind of generational familiarity that that all of a sudden, it, it, it, it, um, we're, we're out of the category. My feelings are hurt and into this space of it feels like something of in me has been violated. Um, and I think it takes a, an enormous amount of energy and awareness on the part of both people, both the person who perpetrated something and the person who was on the receiving end of that, to have a sense of like where they are and where they are and where the other person is to kind of know that and build all to hold it, um, with some integrity. There was a point in which we brought a group of people, uh, to, to view the equal justice initiative, um, landmarks in Montgomery, Alabama, and the conversation and a processing conversation between a white woman and a black woman. And, you know, after having come from the, the National Memorial and Peace and Justice and witnessing the history of lynching, understandably, this black woman was deeply angry, like profoundly angry, um, and trying to manage in the moment what that anger was and, and, and turned to the white participant and said like, I, like I'm really angry at you. Like, I kind of hate you right now. Mm-hmm. , um, two people who are virtually strangers. Right. And, and, and, and for the white woman to have said to her a sense of like, um, I get it. I got it. I'm, I'm white and I'm a woman.And there's a sense in which historically white women called this particular place in the lynching of black bodies mm-hmm. . Um, and also can, can I be in this room in the particularity of my individual story and know that I personally, Right. Um, don't, don't agree with that, stand against it, have not participated actively in it. Kind of a sense of like, you know, and it may have been an imperfect or, or generous engagement, but you can hear the tension of like, how can we both be in this room and hold the collective historical nature of this? And the particularity of the two individuals in the room together hadn't actually been the active participant interrupter. So Yeah. I think it's hard and messy. Danielle (00:57:51):I, I love what, uh, Rebecca wrote. There was, you know, been talking to me about do we imagine Shalom as a return to where we started? Cause the very nature of the disrupt disruption being we cannot return from Eden to the city of God. Um, and Rebecca, I'll let you elaborate on that a little bit more, but when we were talking Rebecca and I, you know, as a mixed race woman, and in those mixes, you know, is indigenous and Spanish and African, and, you know, just this mix, I'm like, where would I return to? Right? Mm-hmm. , what community does a Latinx person returned to? If, if it's a return to Eden, where is, is Eden lost? And so, um, yeah, Rebecca, I don't know if you wanna expand on what you were thinking. Rebecca W. Walston (00:58:43):Uh, I mean, I I've just been wrestling with this in particular, you know, we talk about individual hurt. It's easy to talk about like the disruption that happened in Eden, that what God meant for me individually, what you know, is reflected in the Garden of Eden. The kind of peace and the kind of generosity and the kind of, um, uh, just more that, that is in the Garden of Eden. And, but when I, when I try and so, so there's a depend in which I can step into this work and have this individual sense of like, Oh, you know, I wasn't meant for the fracture and my relationship between myself and my parents, Right? I was meant for something that was more whole than that. So how do I, how do I have a sense of what that was like in Eden, and how do I have a sense of going back to that kind of, that kind of space? But when I translate that into like collective work around racial trauma, I get lost like Danielle, right? In this, this sense that like, um, in, in her book, Born On the Water, um, the author sort of makes this argument that though these African people got on the ship at the beginning in Africa, while they made the journey across the Atlantic and before they landed in the United States, something happened on the water. And there's something in that hyphenated existence that created a new people group in, in a way that like, I can't actually go back to Africa. I like, I can't, I mean, I will go there and for half a second somebody might mistaken me for a, a colored person, right? And if you're inside Africa, that means I'm not fully African. I'm not fully white, I'm somewhere in the middle. But the second I open my mouth, they, they know I'm not African. I'm something else, right? And there's a sense in which I can't actually go back to Eden. There, there's something that happened in the rupture and the displacement that actually makes it impossible for me to return for that, right? And, and I still have that sense of being displaced in the hyphenated existence in the US that makes me, in some ways not fully American either. So what, what is the answer to that? And as I started to wrestle with that theologically, you know, I'm looking at the text going, actually, the, the journey for the Christian is not back to Eden . Like the end game is not back to Genesis, it's to revelation in the city of God. And so that's my sense of this comment is like, do do I pivot and start to imagine repair as not a return to Eden, but onto something else? And, and, and, um, you know, then I begin to suspect that, uh, that, that there's something even in the journey of, of that, that that is a far more value to me that I would want more than just the return to Eden. There's something sweeter having made it onto the city of God. So this is my wonderings. Curious how, how that hits for any of you. Dr. Ernest Gray (01:02:09):I think the, I think you're spot on. And I guess I, I guess it's a maturity mark that says that this continuum, this, this, um, I think you get to a certain and you just realize you never really arrive. And I think this fits within that same conceptual framework of like, you know, hey , you know, you, you could reach the pinnacle of your career. And, um, and yet, you know, it's still not be ultimately satisfying because it's like, is that it? You know, I think I'm on top of the mountain and I, and I guess that's the, that's inherent of human, of human of humanness for me is that I'm, I'm, I'm resigned to thinking about completion and absolute perfection. I'll be perfected when I meet Jesus. They'll be the more work for me to do or work in me to be done. But in the meantime, um, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna be striving, blowing it, striving, um, gaining some, you know, gaining some, um, some skills and learning how to navigate better life and figuring out what works and doesn't work any, uh, as I go, as I age, as I, and hopefully in growing wisdom. Um, but I, I like this idea because there's a sense of, of jettisoning your experiences as though they're irrelevant. No, they're what brought me to this place and they're what's propelling me forward. Um, there's this sense of I might as well give them a hug and bring them with me on the journey, uh, because then they create a sense of meaning and value for me and for those of, uh, you know, for me, uh, as I'm, as I'm making my progress through, through life. So, so, so, um, that to me shows marks of, uh, a sense of maturity and, you know, some restore some restoration. I think, you know, and, and again, it comes down to like this sense of like, you know, the things that have value for us are can, can be worn. You know, Like, my son's got a got, you know, a favorite stuffed animal that is horrible. I wanna wash it every time I see it. You know, it's just like, we get rid of this thing. No, it's just, there's something about this particular stuffed animal that I just cannot part ways with. And so that's, that's kind of how we don't wanna get rid of our vinky or you know, our blanky, whatever it is. We got . Cause we love itself. , TJ Poon (01:04:53):I was really moved when I read this slide and listened to Rebecca and Danielle talking, I think, um, so I named my daughter Eden. And, you know, the, the meaning of pleasure, delight, just that, that the nature of what we were meant for. And in the end, we find it in the city full of people that look like us and not like us. And the image of that is represented there. And just kind of that shifting from like, our delight is found in this garden where it's just as in God, um, to our delight is in this city and, you know, the lamb of God is their light. All these different images that are really powerful and revolution, I think about that. Like that, that has meaningful too. Uh, just a shifting, um, where is our, where is our pleasure? Where is our delight? How do we come to experience that shaone? And who are the people that we experience that through? Dr. Ernest Gray (01:05:53):That's huge. And I, and I, yeah, and I, it's those people that are really part of that, you know, that space for us, that that really kind of helps us to, you know, experience the full, the sum, the full sum of what shalom means for us. I think that that's really important for us to really, for me especially to, to not shy away from that because I, I I, I, my ma my natural inclination would be to just be very isolated and monastic as opposed to engaged in community . But it's experienced in community and it's experienced together, and it's experienced with other shattered people too. Right. Um, and that to me is where I draw strength and energy and, um, you know, peace from as well. So, thank you, tj. I think yours mm-hmm. , I like what you share there. Danielle (01:06:57):I, I guess I would add like, to that, like, I think so much of my experience is being like in this very moment when I feel joy or maybe shalom or a sense of heaven, even in the moment, because unaware of what, I'm always not aware of what will come next. I don't know. Um, yeah. So just the feeling of heaven is in this moment too, with, you know, in the moment that I get to sit with the four of you, this is a piece of heaven for me, a reflection of hope and healing. Although we haven't even explored the ways we might have, you know, rubbed each other the wrong way. I have a sense that we could do that. And in that sense, that feels like heaven to me in spaces where there could, there are conflict. I'm not saying there isn't just a, just, I think in my own culture, the, that's why Sundays feel so good to me. For instance, when I'm with a couple of other families and we're eating and talking and laughing and, you know, the older kids are playing with the younger kids, like, to me, that feels, oh, that feels good. And, and if, if that was the last thing I felt, I would, that would feel like heaven to me. So I, I think there's also that, I'm not saying we're not going to the city of God, but there's just these momentary times when I feel very close to what I think it, it might mean. Mm-hmm. , Rebecca W. Walston (01:08:41):I, I do think, Danielle, I mean, I resonate with what you're saying. I think, I think the text is very clear that there are these moments, um, along the way. Right? I think that's that sense of, yay, do I walk through the valley of the shadow, Right? I, I will be with you. I, I think like wherever you are in the process, along the journey, the moments where you have a sense of, um, I am with you always. Right? And however that shows up for you in a faith, in a person, in a smile and an expression, in deed, whatever, however that shows up, it definitely, like, if I, I do have a sense of like, things we pick up along the way and, and a sense of final destination all being a part of the, the, the healing, the, like, the journey of repair. Um, and, and I start to think about, um, You know, the story of Joseph is a very significant one to me, has very reflected my own story, and then, then will know what that reference means, um, to me in particular by, you know, the, the sense in, in Joseph of like, what sad to meant for evil, God meant for good, right? And the sense of him naming his two sons, Manas and Efram, and one of them, meaning God has caused me to forget the toilet of my father's house. Um, and God has caused me to prosper in the land of my infliction is the meaning of the other son. And so I do think that there's, there's something in the text even that, that is about the journey and the destination being sweeter and holding something more, um, that than had our, our soul existence only been in Eden, Right? I mean, and, and that isn't to say like, I don't wish for that, you know what I mean? Or that I wouldn't love to be there, but, but I, but I mean like, leave it only to God to, to assert this idea that like, um, all of the rupture holds something more, um, that than life without any, without there ever being any sense of rupture. Right? And I think we're in the category of like, the mysteries of God by I, I think. I think so I think there's, there's such value in the journey in the valleys and what we pick up there about ourselves and God and people in it with us. Um, you know, Yeah. Like that, that feels aspirational to me and also feels true in some senses. You're muted, Ernest. I can't, can't hear you. So I said Dr. Ernest Gray (01:11:33):I was low, I was very low when I said that resonates. I, um, I was thinking about, um, you know, for me in the last few years, you know, Covid has done a, has done an, an immeasurable service in many ways. It has been incredibly harmful for a lot of us, but it's been a, it's done an immeasurable service at the same time, um, to reorient us. Um, for me it is increased my, depend my creaturely dependence on God in a way that here to four I would not have been focused upon. Right? I, you know, I spent 12, 13 years in the, in, in the classroom as a professor teaching, uh, on autopilot, um, from God's word, from, um, and teaching students how to study and think and what, what these words in the Bible say and what they could potentially mean, um, to the best of my ability. But that was autopilot stuff. And I felt insulated, if you will. But, but the repair and the why of the repair, why it's important, why, why the, um, the rupture is necessary, and we can call I, I, I would call covid and the time prior to, and subsequent to be very rupturing, I, I would call it as necessary, because it helped me to see my why and why dependence upon God had it be reframed, refocused, re you know, recalibrated so that I could not, so I could get out of a sense of, um, oh, my training prepared me for this to know my, you know, what I am and who I, what my journey has been, did not prepare me for this, and all the attendant features that have come as a result, the relationships that are broken and realizing that they were jacked up from a long , they were jacked up. I just couldn't see them during all those years. Um, but these remind me of the need for God to be embodied, uh, in my life in a way that, um, I had been maybe not as present with. And I think that that's part of the reason why, um, this is my re my why for repair, is that it creates a better, more relational dynamic between me and God that had I not gone through some rupturing event, I would not have appreciated the value of where I'm at with him now. More than that. I think one other thing is that I think that there's a sense too that there's a, um, there's a heightened awareness of all these other aspects that are coming, that are coming about. My eyes are now not as with, you know, blinders on. Now I can look around and say, Wow, this is a really jacked up place. Where can I help to affect some change? Where could I, you know, where can I put my stubborn ounces? Where can I place you know, who I am and what God has put in me, um, in the way so that I can, um, be a part so that I can help, you know, groups that are hurting, people that are hurting communities that are struggling, Um, and the, like, Jen Oyama Murphy (01:15:19):I'm trying to work this out. So I'm just working it out out loud for you all. But, um, I think kind of pi backing off of Rebecca, your, um, juxtaposition between Eden and City of God, and like, why for repair? I think for me, it's the invitation to both humility and hope. And, and for me, humility, um, often in my story and experience has led to what I felt like was humiliation, right? And the way that I learned culturally to avoid that was, um, to not need to repair, to do everything perfectly. To do everything well, to always get the a plus, you know, to, to not make a mistake where I would need to repair. But there's a desperation and hopelessness that comes with that kind of demand or pressure where, um, it's, it is dirty and painful, and it doesn't have that sense of like, Oh, there can be something of the goodness of God that can restore these parts that are dying or dead back to the land of the living. And, um, I think that the idea of that we're move, it's not binary. I'm not completely broken, and I'm not totally healed, and that there can be, um, hope and humility in making that journey. And if I'm able to make that journey with all kinds of different people, um, how much richer and deeper and broader that experience, that growing of humility, I think that can lead to growth and restoration and learning and healing. That just feeds into the hope, right? The hope that yes, I, I will reach the kingdom of God at the end, and there will be kind of the way that what we'll all be who we were meant to be. And there will be such goodness there, all that will continue to grow. Um, if I can stay kind of on that journey and not feel like, um, not give into the poll to be at one place or the other, you know, where I'm either totally broken and there's no hope or completely healed and there's no humility Dr. Ernest Gray (01:17:54):Sounds like a dash to me, a hyphen space, very much so that that hyphen space does so much, it preaches a better word, really does. Then the opposite ends of those two, those two realities are consum, consum, you know, conclusionary kind of places you wanna be. It's the hyphen that where we, where we ought to be. Rebecca W. Walston (01:18:25):Did you, is that word hyphen intentional? I Dr. Ernest Gray (01:18:31):Think so. I think so. It's the interim, well, we call hyphen the interim, you can call it all of that good stuff. Um, I, I think it's because, you know, whether, you know, whenever we, wherever we frequent a cemetery, we always think about how stoic it is to see the name and the date of birth and the date of death. And that hyphen is, that's what preaches the better word, is the hyphen in between what this person and how they went about their, their lives with their, their ups and downs, their navigation through the world for people like, um, people, for people who have been on the receiving end of, um, of trauma pain, um, and racialized, um, uh, this ambi or dis disor dis dis dis disorientation or trauma , we, we realize that they have a lot more weight to bear and that their experiences were far more complex. Um, and so this makes their stories even more winsome and more intriguing for us to learn and know about because we're, we're in relationship with them. Um, but the hyphen is the best place to be. And I find that in many ways, um, that is where real life occurs, and that's where I'm at right now. Um, as, as, as a matter of fact, Rebecca W. Walston (01:19:59):I, I mean, I've, I've heard that it has a very black sermon right there about the hyphen and the dash, right? But it hit me in particular because Danielle knows I often introduced myself as African hyphen American. So that your, that word hyphen hit me in that, in that context. Right. And as I was listening to Jen talk about humility and hope and how she, what she learned of how to settle into that space in her Japanese nest or her Japanese Hy American, I just, it just hit me, it hit me about the hyphenated racialized experience in the US and what you might be suggesting consciously or subconsciously Right. About that being a good place to be. Danielle (01:20:50):Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Jen, when you were talking, I was like, wanting to cry. I can still feel the tears. And I was just like, I felt the literal pull, I think at both end of that spectrum, when you talked through them for yourself, I was like, Oh, yeah, that's where I'm, Oh, wait a minute. Then you described the other end, and I was like, Oh, that's where I am . And I was, I think I was like, I was like, Oh, to sit in that, that interim space, you know, the hyphen space, sometimes I have felt like that space would kill me. Mm-hmm. the shame of not knowing how to be one or the other. Mm. Or to try to hold, or to try to explain to someone, you know, I, I think, what is your wife or repair, Why wouldn't I repair? I think of my own, you know, body. And, and, and when Rebecca's talked about not earnest, and, and you, I, I think like I have to be doing that internal work. I mean, because, you know, as you know, if you live in the body of the oppressor and the impressed , how do you make, how do, how do what repair has to be happening? It it, it's, it's happening. And, and if I'm fearful and wonderfully made, then God didn't make me like this on a mistake. It wasn't like, Oh, crap, that's how she came out. Let me see if I can fix it. Hmm. Um, indeed. So those are the things I was thinking as you were talking, Jen. Hmm. Rebecca W. Walston (01:22:47):I, I think Danielle, you're, you're in that sense on the slide of like, any version of repair must work towards the salvation and their redemption of the oppress, the oppress onlooker. Right. And that there has to be, we, we have to have a sense of categories for all of those things. Dr. Ernest Gray (01:23:10):And the work by each, I wonder, which, you know, I'm always trying to determine which one is gonna be the easier to repair, which, which person are you, the pressor or onlooker? And we would just assume that the onlooker would have the least amount of, but they might actually bear the biggest burden is because they're gonna have to deal with assumptions and biases that they have accumulated that are entrenched and that they don't wanna deal with and come to terms with. That's why it's easier to simply, you know, just lull their response or, or stay silent as the, as the notion below here says it's, it's easier to stay silent, to be, you know, resign, say it's not my issue than it is to get in and, and, and to really unearth whether or not this is actually something in internally that they're wrestling with that's far more scary to do. Um, and the majority of people might have some, this is a generalization, but it seems to me like the majority of people don't wanna really, really do that work, Danielle (01:24:19):Um, because all of us have been onlookers to one another's ethnic pain, whether we like it or not. I know I have absolutely. I've been an onlooker mm-hmm. , Yep. Mm-hmm. . Yep. And, and just, and then that's where you have where to step in is just like, Oh, that does not feel good. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. try to own that. My part in that, Dr. Ernest Gray (01:24:45):Ladies, it's almost a sense of a little bit of a reunion that I've had with you this afternoon, but I do need to go and pick up my two boys. And so for this part, I'm gonna need to jump off of the, um, of this, of this great time together, and hopefully I'll be invited back again so that my, um, so that we can, we can continue the conversation. Danielle (01:25:37):I will. Did you all have any final thoughts? TJ Poon (01:25:44):I've been noodling something since the very first slide, which is just like this distinction. I don't know if it's a useful one between disruption and rupture And how like rupture needs to be repaired, but a lot of times repair can't happen without sub disruption. And, you know, that first slide talks about how we kind of pathologized or like said negative anything that has to do with rupture, but you can't, like, you literally can't, um, repair without disrupting the systems. And I think in white imagination, those things are often made equivalent. Like anything that's disruptive is rupturing uncomfortable. Like, I need, I, I need to fix it as fast as possible. Um, versus no, actually this disruption is an invitation to something different. It's a disruption that actually will lead to an authentic repair or real repair as opposed to like, what calls dirty pain, like silence avoidance. Um, so I've just been thinking about those two different words and what they can mean. Mm-hmm. , Rebecca W. Walston (01:27:07):I like that distinction a lot. It, it feels almost like trying to get at like harm versus hurts, right? And, and try to have a sense of like, um, you know, are we always in the category of this is bad and awful and it needs to see immediately, Right. Or are there places where actually good and we need to let it play it itself out, So, yeah. Jen Oyama Murphy (01:27:35):Mm-hmm. Well, I think that also connects maybe fun too to Rebecca. You are, um, differentiating between like the demand to return to Eden or the like blessing of being on the journey to the city of God. Cause if the demand is to return to Eden, then anything disruptive is gonna feel, not like Eden, Right? But if, if it is about growing and learning and healing and developing on the road to the city of God, then disruption is part of that process, then it's something that may be hard, um, but it's necessary and hopeful or has the potential to be that. Rebecca W. Walston (01:28:22):Yeah. It, it does pivot something for me pretty significantly to be, to be talking about like the, my destination isn't actually Danielle (01:28:40):New ladies are really smart. can bottle all that up. I like that. TJ Poon (01:28:53):I mean, Jen, when you were like, I'm just working this out. And then you said something super deep and profound. I think what I was, what I was struck about what you said was like, um, just the demand to not ever need to repair like that internal pressure demand. And that's, that's how I feel all the time. Like, just, just be perfect and then you all need to repair mm-hmm. . Um, and just what, uh, yeah, just what a demand. What a, a burden. I don't, I don't know all the words, but like, it, it's dehumanizing cuz what it means to be human on this earth is to have disrupt, is to repair. Like you are going need to because we're all, we're all humans. And so there, when you said that, I was like, Oh, that's so important. Danielle (01:31:07):Because everything feels so lost. But I hope that this will be an encouragement to people about a conversation. Hopefully it'll feel like they can access something in themselves where.  

Bios:Ernest Gray Jr. is the pastor of Keystone Baptist Church located in the West Garfield Park neighborhood of Chicago.  He is a graduate of the Moody Bible Institute with a degree in Pastoral Ministries, and a graduate of Wheaton College with a Master's Degree in Biblical Exegesis.  He completed his PhD coursework at McMaster Divinity College and is currently completing his thesis within the corpus of 1 Peter. Mr. Gray has taught in undergraduate school of Moody in the areas of Hermeneutics, first year Greek Grammar, General Epistles, the Gospel of John and Senior Seminar. It is Mr. Gray's hope to impact the African American church  through scholarship. Teaching has been one way that God has blessed him to live this out.  Ernest is also co-host of the newly released podcast Just Gospel with an emphasis upon reading today's social and racial injustices through a gospel lens. www.moodyradio.org    Jen Oyama Murphy  "My love of good stories led me to Yale University where I received a BA in English. Upon graduation, I felt called to bring individual stories into relationship with the Gospel Story, and I have worked in the areas of campus and church ministry, lay counseling, and pastoral care since 1989. Over the years, I sought a variety of ongoing education and training in the fields of psychology and theology, including graduate classes at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology and Benedictine University. I also completed the Training Certificate and Externship programs at The Allender Center, and I previously held roles on their Training and Pastoral Care Team, as Manager of Leadership Development, and most recently as the Senior Director of The Allender Center. Believing that healing and growth happens in the context of relationship, I work collaboratively to create a safe coaching space of curiosity and kindness where honesty, care, desire, and imagination can grow. Using my experience and expertise in a trauma-informed, narrative-focused approach, I seek to help people live the story they were most meant for and heal from the ones they were not. I am passionate about personal support and development, particularly for leaders in nonprofit or ministry settings, including lay leaders who may not have a formal title or position. I'm especially committed to engaging the personal and collective stories of those who have felt invisible, marginalized, and oppressed. I love facilitating groups as well as working individually with people. I currently live in Chicago with my husband, and we have two adult daughters.Rebecca Wheeler Walston lives in Virginia, has completed  Law School at UCLA, holds a Master's in Marriage and Family Counseling, is also a licensed minister. Specializing in advising non-profits and small businesses. Specialties: providing the legal underpinning for start-up nonprofits and small businesses, advising nonprofit boards, 501c3 compliance, creating and reviewing business contracts.TJ Poon serves with Epic Movement, where we both serve on the People & Culture Team (HR). TJ is the Director ofPeople & Culture and and also serves on Epic's leadership team to provide her leadership, wisdom, vision and direction for the ministry.Danielle:SO on screen and feel free to add to your introductions. Uh, Ernest, um, Dr. Gray is someone I'm met Yeah. Um, on screen during one of our cohort, um, virtual weekends and just listening to him talk, I think he was in the Caribbean when he was giving us the lecture mm-hmm. and talking about theology, and I was frantically taking notes and eventually resorted to screen shooting, like snapping pictures of the screen as he was talking. Uh, and then like quickly texting some friends and my husband to say, Hey, I was learning this that. And so that was kinda my introduction to Dr. Gray. And then we of course had a chance to meet in Montgomery. Um, yes, my respect just, uh, grew for you at that point. Um, the ability for you to be honest and be in your place of location Absolutely. And show up and show up to present, it felt like a theology that had life, and that feels different to me. So, um, thank  Dr. Ernest Gray:Thank You for that.  Thank you for that. No, I'm, it's a pleasure to join you all. I, I see some familiar faces and I'm excited to be with you all, and, um, yeah, I'm, um, yeah, I'm, I'm thankful that you thought me, um, thought my voice would be, uh, would be relevant for this conversation. So I'm, I'm grateful to be here and, um, yeah, I'm, I'm here to, um, to both participate and to, um, to learn as much as I can in this moment, so thank you.  Danielle:Mm. You're welcome. Um, and then there's Rebecca Wheeler Walton who is the boss, and she's both smart and witty and funny and kind and extremely truthful in the most loving ways, and so have highest regard for her. Back when I answered the phone, Luis would be like, Is that Rebecca  Yeah. Um, yeah, and tj, uh, TJ had gotten to know TJ over the last year and, um, you know, she's kind of introduced as like an admin person, but I've quickly learned that she, her heart and her wisdom are her strongest attributes and her ability just hang in the room in a tough conversation, um, has, I've just had an immense respect and hope for, for the future by, in getting to know ut j mm-hmm. touching. Yeah. And then at the top, y'all on my screen is Jen Oyama Murphy. She was my first facilitator at The Allender Center. Um, and she showed up in her body and her culture, and I was like, Man, that is freaking awesome. Um, and I wanna, I wanna do what she's doing with other people in this world. Um, Jen loved me and has loved me, and I don't think it can be overstated how wise and patient she is. Um, and just like when I say the word intuition, I mean it in a sense of like, deep wisdom. And, and that's, that's like, I keep searching. Like I wanna have access to that me. So, so thank you, Jen. Yeah.  Jen Oyama Murphy :Hmm. Gosh. Thank you, Danielle. Thanks. Well, I'm, I feel very privileged to be a part of the conversation, so thanks for inviting me.  Danielle:Yeah. So, I mean, I, Ernest you probably didn't get a chance to watch this clip, but it's this clip we're not gonna show. We talked about it. It's about, um, it's the border and there's like a three minute time, um, like timer for people to cross the border and hug each other and interact with one, one another on the southern border. And so there's like a tiny clip of this here. And, um, it's Latinx Heritage Month, and it felt really important to me to have a diverse conversation around repair, because Latin X is, um, Asian, it's black, white, it's European, it's white, it's indigenous. And I feel like, you know, in this conversation, what does repair look like for a Latinx person? And what, what does arriving, you know, to heaven mean, you know mm-hmm.  Dr. Ernest Gray:Indeed.  Danielle:So, yeah. So that's kind of where I'm coming from. And I have the slides up, but I, you know, I wanna hear your all thoughts on, on it, you know? Do you mind hitting the next slide, Tj?  Dr. Ernest Gray:Very good.  Danielle :Do you want me to keep moving? ? Yeah. Um, this is this guy that isn't red in, uh, Western psychology, although he was European descent and lived in El Salvador. He was murdered by, um, CIA operatives in El Salvador. And, uh, he was a liberation psychologist. And partly part of the reason he wasn't as well known here is because he gave almost all his lectures in Spanish on purpose. Hmm. Because he wanted to be rooted in a Latin American tradition. Um, and so I thought it was important to just lay the foundation for what rupture and repair means. He had a real vision for psychology to be a liberating movement, not just one that maintains like, Here, let me get you healed so you can function in this oppressive system. Like, um, yeah.  Dr. Ernest Gray :You know, I think about that kind of, um, movement, which seems to me has always been very much so a part of, you know, this resilience, this resilience push amongst indigenous people, groups, communities. It, it, it is a, it is a sense to regain their, um, their humanity when they've been trampled on, when that humanity has been trampled on. And so there are different epox I think that I've seen as of recent, um, where we see that this has come to a head. You know, I'll never forget the, in the, the ministry of, um, Dr. Cera Na Padilla, um, who was, who just passed a couple of years ago. And, um, I was fortunate to have a class by him, but it was his eyeopening class, uh, a world Christian perspective that gave me the ability to, um, um, hear just how liber the gospel can be and how restorative to the humanity of people groups that have been trampled upon, uh, actually is.  So I think that repair in many ways is just the, is just the acknowledgement that, hey, something in me is not right. And, um, it's not any one person. It feels as though this is a, um, this is the water in which I'm swimming, Like the water I'm in is like rotten. Um, and, and I wanna be rejuvenated through a, a water that, that refreshes and rejuvenates my life. Um, and that, that that water that it seems to be about is my aka the systemic kind of components that have trampled upon, um, indigenous groups. But that first step is acknowledgement, saying, Hey, um, something's broken in me. And it's not any one person. It's more of a system. It's more of the water in which I'm in. Um, that needs to be, uh, ameliorated. It needs to be, um, you know, I, I need it. It, I can't live like this. I can't, I can't, I can't live like this anymore.  Um, I think as well, there's, there's a lot of things that I think are many, very much so, um, um, you know, kind of tied to this, this equilibrium. I think, um, when I, when I hear about these struggles and I hear about how people are trying to, um, go for at least make sure that they are, um, pursuing their inherent dignity and worth it, it, it shouldn't seem as though it, it's such a, um, a, um, there's so much resistance to that work. I mean, where, as human beings, we really want to be affirmed. We wanna be loved, we wanna be cherished, very, very basic things. Um, but to have, but to have resistance to that amongst systems also shows that we, we've got to pull together to be able to make a, uh, a concerted effort towards bringing back a type of, um, um, regenerative and healing kind of ethic to our communities that are shattered, that have been broken.  And I, and I, and I, and I, and I personally see this right now as it relates to, you know, my community, which is African American, and I personally feel this, especially when I think about, um, people who are in survival mode and making bad choices. I always wanna pause and, and tell people, Listen, do not, don't, don't blame the victim. I mean, you're looking at William Ryan's book here as Right in front of me blaming the victim, Right. And I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna blame the victim because they don't, people don't wake up in the morning and think, you know, I wanna go out here and commit crime. I wanna do things I don't want, I don't wanna do these things just because I'm inherently, um, you know, um, malevolent person. No, I wanna do these things cause I'm, I'm trying to survive.  And, and it, and there, that signals to me as well that there's something broken, uh, in the social order. And that these communities in particular, the most vulnerable ones, uh, shouldn't be subjected to so much, um, to, to these things, to, to where they have to resort to violence, crime, or, um, you know, pushing against laws, unjust laws, if you will, uh, that people see is, um, oppressive. Shouldn't we should demo dismantle the laws that, that create these things. So that was a very, Forgive my thought, forgive my, um, thought, thought there, but I, I just wanted to kind of think and, and draw out some, some, some broad strokes there.  Jen Oyama Murphy:Yeah. I, I resonate with that a lot, Dr. Gray. I mean it, like, we've all been trained in kind of this narrative, um, therapeutic way of working with people. And so much of my experience has been looking at that story only as that story and not being able to look at it within a culture, within a system, and even within the context in which that story is being read. So if you are a person of culture in the group, you probably are at best, one of two in a group of eight mm-hmm. . And that has a story and a system all to itself. So even the process of engaging someone's story, even if you are mindful of their culture and the systemic story that that's in, you're also then in a, in a story that's being reenacted in, in and of itself, you know, that, um, I mean, Danielle and Rebecca know cuz they were in my group.  Like, you, you have best are one of two. And even within that too, you're probably talking about two different cultures, two different systems. And so that sense of, um, having repair, healing feel really contained to not just your story, but then a dominant structure within where that healing is supposed to happen. Like, it's, it's the water. Most of us have swarm in all our life, so we don't even know right. Where the fish that's been in that water all the time. And so we don't even know that that's happening. And so when, when the healing process doesn't seem like it's actually working, at least for me, then I turn on myself, right? That there's something bad or wrong about me, that, that what seems to be working for everyone else in the room, it's not working for me. So I must be really bad or really broken.  And it doesn't even kind of pass through my being of like, Oh, no, maybe there's a system that's bigger than all of us that's bad and broken. That needs to be addressed too. So I, I love what this cohort is trying to do in terms of really honoring the particular personal story, but also then moving out to all the different stories, all the different systems that are connected to that personal story. I'm, I'm grateful for that. And it's hard work, hard, hard, complicated work that it's full of conflict, Right. And math, and it's not gonna have five steps that you can follow and everything's gonna work out well for, for everyone. I mean, it's, it's gonna be a mess. You guys are brave.  Dr. Ernest Gray:This final statement here about overthrowing the social order not to be considered as pathological. Um, you know, that, that, that last part there, uh, the conflicts generated by overthrowing the social order not to be considered pathological people. I mean, I think that there's a sense that people really don't want to have to resort to this language of overthrow if these systems were not malevolent from the very first place. Right. And, and I think about this, how, how the exchange of power has become such a, has created such a vacuum for, um, the most vulnerable groups to be, um, um, you know, maligned taken advantage of, pushed under the bus or where's eradicated, um, without, with, you know, with impunity. And I think about that, that there, there has to be, in many ways when we see the e the various, um, TIFs and the various, um, contests that arise around the, around the globe, there seems to be a common theme of oppressive oppression, power abuse, um, and then it's codified into laws that are saying, Well, you're gonna do this or else.  And I guess that's, it's, it's almost as if there's a, a type of, um, expectation that this is, this is the only means that which we have to overthrow social orders that need to be, um, uh, eradicate need to be done away with. So, so there's, there's a lot of truth to this, this, this, this last part especially as well. Um, but I, I think that's what we see, um, constantly. One of the things that's popping in my mind right now is the ACON in South Africa. Um, and they're, they're dominant, The Dutch domination of South Africa and the indigenous group there, the, the South Africans, um, of af of, of, um, of black descent and how their struggles have ha have, you know, just constantly been, um, you know, so, so, so rife with tension and there's still tension there. And so it just takes on a different form.  I, I think that there's a lot of things that we can learn from the various contests, but we might, when we strip away layers of the onion, we might find that a lot of it is the way in which this power dynamic and power exchange, or lack thereof, is actually going on. Um, and again, we can call that what we want to, we can say it's Marxist. We can say it's, um, you know, um, critical, but critical theory helps us to, helps us with some of this to see in which power way in which power is leveraged and the abuse of it. Lots of it.  Rebecca W. Walston :I mean, I think, um, Ernest, if I can call you back if I've earned right quite yet, maybe not . Oh,  You got that right . Um, I, you know, I think what, what what hits me about your statement is, is, is the sense that, um, that there's that power and a sense of overthrow inextricably tied together in ways that I, I don't think they should be, I do not think that they were meant to be. Um, and I, it, it makes me think of a conversation that I had with the Native American, uh, uh, um, friend. And we were, we were together in a group of, um, diverse people watching, um, a documentary about a group of multi-ethnic, a multi-ethnic group engaging around race and racism. And we were watching the, um, this group of people sort of engage about it. And, um, I was, by the time the thing was over, like I was full on like angry, all kinds of things activated in me a around the Black American experience.  And I turned to this Native American guy sitting next to me, and, and I said, I'd like to know from you, what is your version of 40 acres in a mule? A and, and I said, you know, in, in my community, like, we have a thing about 40 acres in a mule, that kind of encapsulates a, a, a sense of what was taken from us as, as enslaved Africans, and some sense of what it means to, to start to repair that breach, right? And, and to give some sense of restitution. And it's codified in this sense of 40 acres and mule given to freed, uh, newly freed Africans as, as a way to, to launch into a sense of free existence. And I said to him, If I were you, I'd be like, pissed. Yeah. I, as an indigenous man, like, I'd want all of my stuff back, all of it, all of the land, everything. Like all the people, everything, everything. And so, I'd like to know from you, what is your version of 40 acres in the mill? What's your measurement of what it would look like to start to, to repair and to return to indigenous people? What was taken from them?  Hmm. And this man looked me dead in my face and said, We, we have no equivalent because the land belongs to no one. It was merely ours to steward, so I would never ask for it back.  Dr. Ernest Gray:Wow. Floored. Mm-hmm.  Rebecca W. Walston:A and I'm still by that it's been maybe six, seven years. And I've never forgotten that sentiment and the sense that, um, I, I wanted to sit at his feet and learn and not ask more questions. I just, and just the sense of like, what could my people learn from the indigenous community and how might it allow us to breathe a little deeper and move a little freer it? And so I, you know, I hope you guys can hear that as not like a ding against my community and what we're asking for, but just a sense of for how another people group steps into this question of rupture and repair that is radically different from, from my experience, and causes me to pause and wonder what must they know of the kingdom of God that would allow them to hold that kind of, that kind of sacred space that feels unfamiliar to me,  Dr. Ernest Gray:That is quite revolutionary. And if are representative of this type of, and again, those are just, those are just the terms we use to, to talk about repair and, um, and re restoration. I wonder if the, if see what I, what I'm struggling with is that what we are, what we wrestled through as an African American context was, and the vestiges is of, um, ownership. It's ownership and, um, ownership of bodies and ownership of land. And the indi, the aboriginal people of America, the Native Americans, they have this really robust sense of it belong. If that's the case that belongs to no one, my next question would be then, and again, if I'm thinking about ownership, well, that it's the damning sense of what ownership did to their communities, how they were decimated, how they were ransacked, how, how, um, you know, the substance abuse has ran rampant.  So if from, if it were me, I would ask a follow up question to this individual and ask why. Well then if the land is not an issue and it's not a, it's not a monetary thing that needs to be repaired, what about the damage? How will we go about putting a value upon or putting some type of thing upon the decimation of, of communities, the, um, the homes. Let's take, you know, Canada is r in pain, especially with the Catholic church and what was done in certain orphanages. Okay. And so, um, if not a monetary thing, what would be the re another response to repair the brokenness that the people have experienced? And I, and I, I don't, I understand the land is one thing, but there's also a people that have been shattered absolutely, absolutely shattered. And, and I think that still remains a question for me.  And again, it's a perennial question that is affecting multiple communities. Um, but these are felt more acutely, especially as, um, you know, Africans, uh, in the transatlantic route. And, and, and aboriginal native Americans who were, who are, um, you know, no one discovered them here. But this ownership piece is something that I think is what is inherent to whiteness, and it has created this vacuum. And why we need to have a sense of, um, you know, how it impacts every single debate. Every single debate. I would go down a rabbit trail about, you know, gospel studies and New Testament studies, but that's just, it's all, it's there too. It's, it's right there, too.  Danielle:TJ, can you hit the next slide? I think we're into that next slide, but I think what I'm hearing, and then maybe Jen has a, a follow up to this, is, I, I think part of my response from the Latinx community is we're both perpetually hospitable and perpetually the guest. Mm. Mm-hmm. We don't own the house. Mm. And we, and yet there's a demand of our hospitality in a house that's not ours. Mm. And there's a sense of, I think that comes back to the original cultures that we come from, of this idea that you showed up here, let me give you food. Let me, let me have you in, let me invite you in. And in the meantime, you took my, you took my space and, and you put a, you put a stake in it that said, Now this is mine and you're my guest. And now there's different rules, and I may be polite to you, but that does not equal hospitality. Right. And so, and I don't know, I don't have the resolution for that, but just this feeling that, that Latinx communities are often very mi migratory. Like, and, you know, we have, then you get into the issue of the border and everything else. But this idea that we, we don't own the house, and yet there's a, there's an, there's a demand for our hospitality wherever we go.  Rebecca W. Walston:What's your sense, Danielle, cuz you said, um, both there's a demand on the hospitality and also something of that hospitality hearkening back to your indigenous culture from Right. In the place where you're not a guest, you're actually at home. So is that a both and for you  Danielle:Mm-hmm. , because I think that's the part that's, that's robbed the meaning, The meaning that's made out of it is robbed. I think sometimes the hospitality is freely given. And, and that's a space where I think particularly dominant culture recognizes that. Right. And so there's, there's the ability to take, and then, then there's the complicity of giving even when you don't want to. And also like, then how does a, and this is very broad, right? And the diaspora, right? But the sense of like, the demand, if you don't give your hospitality then at any point, because you're the perpetual guest, they can shut you out and you can never return. So I haven't quite worked that through, but those are some thoughts I was having as you all were speaking.  Dr. Ernest Gray:Mm. I think that's, I think that's very keen, uh, you know, as a keen observation, my wife is, you know, from a Caribbean context, and so there's the hospitality notion wherein it's, I mean, that's just, it's irrespective of what you feel. This is just what you do. And so I think that it's, when it's taken advantage of or hoisted upon people in a way that is saying, Oh, you must do this, that harm can enue. But, um, there's a, there's a, for me, it's, it's, it's really, really foreign to, from the outside looking in to understand how that culture, um, has, um, historically genuflected or just kind of, um, it can become a part of weakness. It can become a part, or it can be become abused. Especially when this is an expectation of the culture. Um, and I think that's where the harm lies, is that there, there has to be some measures of, of like,  When conditions are, are, you know, almost in a sense of like, this isn't automatic. And it, and then there needs to be some kind of, some kind of ways in which it can remain protected. So that's to not be abused by those who know that this is an expectation of the community. Um, but yeah, that's, that's from the outside looking in, it's hard. My only connection is through, you know, my wife and her culture and seeing how that is, you know, I don't care what's going on inside. You know, you're gonna, you're gonna be hospital, You're gonna host, you're gonna continue to be, you're gonna reach out. You're gonna continue to be that person because that's what's expected of you.  Jen Oyama Murphy:I mean, Danielle as a Japanese American. I mean, I feel that bind of, I mean, it's not even perpetual guest for, I think Asians often. It feels like perpetual alien. Um, and, and yet, you know, there are cultural expectations and norms, you know, among the Japanese, around what it looks like to welcome someone into your home, what it means to be gracious and deferential, and that, So there's a whole culture that's, um, informing of a way, a style of relating that I think to Dr. Gray's point can be taken advantage of. Um, and can, I think be in some ways, consciously or unconsciously used by, um, that culture to kind of escape wrestling with the experience of, of marginalization and abuse and trauma. Because there's a culture that can give you some sense of safety and containment and soothing. If you go back to what, you know, um, culturally, I mean, after the internment camps, the incarceration of the Japanese during World War ii, that's exactly like what happened is the, the idea of, you know, being polite, being deferential, working hard, using productivity as a way to gain status and safety, and in some ways, right, taking the bait to, to be, to like out white, white people.  We're gonna be better citizen than the white people. And like, what that cost the Japanese Americans who, if you had asked them what kind of repair did they want, they would say none. We're just so grateful to be able to be in this country. It, you know, the, the grandchildren of the people that were incarcerated that kind of ly rose up and said like, This is wrong. And so it's just, it, it feels so complicated and like such a, such a math, um, in it. And that's where I feel like, um, learning not just the, the white Asian story, right? But having exposure and experiences and relationships with, um, a variety of different ethnicities and being able to learn from their histories, their culture, their way of, um, engaging trauma, working through a healing process, and not staying in a single lane in my culture only anymore than I wanna stay in a single white Western culture only.  But being really open to learning, growing. I mean, my experience with you, Danielle, and you, Rebecca, even in my group, right, opened me up to a whole different way of engaging story and working with the, um, methodology that we had been learning. And I'm so grateful I wouldn't have had to wrestle or contend with any of that if I hadn't been in relationship with both of you who have a different culture than I do, and a different style relating and a different way of responding to things than I do. That was so informative for me in broad slu, um, opportunity to really first own that there is a rupture, and then what it looks, what it could look like to repair. And that I didn't only have two, two options like my Japanese American way or the, the White Western way that I had learned all my life.  Rebecca W. Walston:I resonate with that, Jen. I think that, um, what comes to my mind is the sense of Revelation seven, nine, um, and at the throne of grace at the end of this, that identifying monikers every tribe and every tongue mm-hmm. . And, and it causes me to wonder why that moniker, why is it that the identification that the throne of grace is tribe and come. Right? And, and I think it hints at what you just said, this sense of like, there's a way in which this kind of hospitality shows up in each culture, um, in, in a way that I think each culture holds its own way of reflecting that text, um, in a way that is unique, um, in the sense that we won't have a full and complete picture of hospitality until we have a sense of how it shows up in every tribe and every time. Um, and, and so I love that that image from you of like, what can I learn from, from you as a Japanese American, and what can I learn from Danielle? What can I learn from tj? What can I learn from Ernest and, and how they, they understand, uh, and embody that with, with the sense of like, my picture will be a little bit clearer, a little bit more complete for having, having listened and learned.  And I, I do think we're talking in terms of hospitality about sort of, to me, the connective tissue between a erector and a repair is really a sense of resiliency. And, and it feels to me a little bit like the, there's a way where we can talk about hospitality that is really about, um, something of a God given capacity to navigate a rupture, whether it's individual or collective in a, in a way that allows for hopes, for pushes, for some sense of repair. And, you know, I was listening to Ernest talking, you know, I feel like I can hear Michelle Obama saying, when they go low, we go high. Right? And that is a, that is, it's a, it's a different kind of hospitality, but it feels like, feels like hospitality than the infant, right? It, it feels like I won't give in, um, to, to this invitation to join the chaos. I, I, I will, um, be mindful and thoughtful and intentional about how I move through it so that I don't find myself, uh, joining joining in it, but actually standing against it. And that, that feels very hospitable to me. To, to stand on the side of what is true and right. And honoring and, and, and not not joining the fray.  Danielle:You can see how our collective ruptures that we've all described, and I know TJ, you haven't spoken yet, um, how our trauma rubs up against one another and likely is in a heated moment, is very triggering.  If I'm in a, if Jen and I are in a space where we feel like we have to stay, keep our heads low, because let's say I have a family member, um, who's undocumented, right? Or Jen has a memory of, I don't know, a traumatic experience dealing with dominant culture. And we're with, you know, like you say Rebecca, like our African hyphen American friends, and they're like, Come on, let's go get it. Mm-hmm. , you can feel the rub of what repair might look like, and then there's a fracture between us. Mm-hmm. . If we don't, that's, I mean, and then the hard thing that I've been challenged lately to try to do is stay really close to my experience so I have a sense of self so that I can bring that full self to you and say like, I feel this way, and then I can more, more be able to listen to you if I can express a more truer sense of what I'm feeling. Does that make sense?  Dr. Ernest Gray:Perfect.  I think, I think, um, yeah, I, I, I think about the triggering aspects of how we have been collectively kind of retraumatized. You know, when you think about, you know, this since Trayvon Martin and and beyond here in America with African American context, we've just been trying to figure out how to stay alive and t-shirts keep printing regarding, um, you know, can't go to, can't go to church, can't go to a park, can't do this, can't do that, can't breathe. And it's almost as if it's, it's exhausting. Um, but it's entering into that space with other groups, other communities that creates a sense of solidarity, which is sorely needed. Because we would assume, and we would make this as this assumption, like, Oh, well, you don't have it so bad. That's not true. It looks different. It feels different. And until we can, at the same time, um, I like what you said about own, what we are feeling while we are in that moment, it allows us to at least get it out there so that we can then be active engagers with others and not just have our own stuff, you know, uh, for stalling, any meaningful connection.  I wanna think that there's a sense that, um, because, you know, our expressions in every way, whether it's hospitality or whether it's in the way in which we deal with, um, the various cultural phenomenons that we're closely associated with, is that these create the mosaic. If we, back to Rebecca's idea of Revelation seven, nine, these re these is why I love mosaics is because the full picture of our, um, similar, similarly expressed experiences do not look the same, but when they're all put together, eventually we'll see the, the picture more fully. And I think that that's the key is that it, it's so easy for us to be myopic in a way in which we look at everyone else's, or especially our own, to where we can't see anybody else's. That that creates this isolation, insular kind of isolation idea of, Well, you don't have it as bad as I do. Or they're not as, they're not as shaken as this community or that community or this community. Um, and wherein there's some truth to that, Um, if we're going to regain a sense of human, our full humanity, we've gotta figure out ways to, to do that active listing so that our ours doesn't become the loudest in the room.    

In today's episode, we tackle the first two audiences from St. John Paul's Theology of the Body. We answer what TOB is, and we look at the first creation story and see what significance such an ancient story can have on us, our worth, and our marriages and relationships. We're so happy you're here with us!TOB Quote for today's episode:To this mystery of his creation, ("In the image of God he created him"), corresponds the perspective of procreation, ("Be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth"), of that becoming in the world and in time, of that (let it be) which is necessarily bound up with the metaphysical situation of creation: of contingent being. Precisely in this metaphysical context of the description of Genesis 1, it is necessary to understand the entity of the good, namely, the aspect of value. Indeed, this aspect appears in the cycle of nearly all the days of creation and reaches its culmination after the creation of man: "God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good" (Gn 1:31). For this reason it can be said with certainty that the first chapter of Genesis has established an unassailable point of reference and a solid basis for a metaphysic and also for an anthropology and an ethic, according to which being and the good are convertible. Undoubtedly, all this also has a significance for theology, and especially for the theology of the body. - St. John Paul the Great,  September 12, 1979READ THE WHOLE TEXT:Theology of the Body by JP2SUPPORT OUR MINISTRYThank you all for your ongoing support. We love what we do, and we pray that it is a blessing to you and your families. If you are benefitting in some way from what we're doing, here are some ways you can support our show:  Support us on Patreon!Our BooksGo To Joseph: 10 Day Consecration to St. JosephGo To Joseph For ChildrenFREE RESOURCESFertility Awareness Cheat SheetRelationship Check-UpOur MinistryAbout UsConnect with us and send us a message on InstagramYouTube ChannelEpisode Music by Alex_MakeMusic from PixabaySupport the show

This week, we're revisiting a conversation from 2018 between Dr. Dan Allender and Dr. Angela Parker, Professor at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, as they explore the passage of 1 Corinthians 4:8-13. Dr. Parker starts by offering some context about the port city of Corinth and the people who make up the church Paul is writing to. It's a divided city, concerned with hierarchy and proximity to power. Dr. Parker challenges us to consider Paul's ethnicity, gender, and position as we wonder about “what might be going on underneath the text,” which also invites us to wrestle with our own nuanced identities as readers of the text.

on the possible or probable, Poetic structures in Psalm 148 and the I Thou relationship with God and others in congruent communications

He's helped so many of us deal with the pain of our past, and learn to share our stories. He's helped leaders grow, marriages heal and weary people learn to rest. And he's helped us see how the gospel is woven into our stories.  Dr. Dan Allender is one of those important, special voices in the world. His work as a therapist and teacher has transformed the lives of so many, and his books have been foundational in the healing and recovery journey of those touched by trauma.  Dan is the co-founder of The Seattle School of Theology/Psychology and The Allender Center.  If you've carried wounds from your past around with you and wondered what God could be up to, join me for a precious conversation with this gentle, wise, compassionate counselor. 04:23 Navigating global COVID trauma 11:37 What IS trauma? 15:38 The importance of validating our wounds24:51 Finding God in our trauma27:17 Finding our calling in God38:05 Kindness or niceness?43:55 How do we participate in redemption?

article critique | “The Best Way to Deal With Mismatched Libidos in Your Marriage” https://bit.ly/3qVpxgu Gary Thomas, Focus on the Family Rev. Jared LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredingle/ Evangelical Columnist | https://www.patheos.com/blogs/jaredingle/ JCIngle YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfLHpP_H9jEE_sZNLeJos5A pic: JVI | sunrise or sunset? | 01.04.21

Predating modern psychology the French philosopher Rene Descartes pens the words "cogito, ergo sum" because he writes in Latin. However, I think it looks and sounds better in French, "Je pense, donc je suis." In English it's "I think, therefore I am." Descartes is not blaspheming by saying "I am." Some highlight his methodology of doubt, thinking it could read "I doubt therefore I am." This is not the doubt and deconstructionism of later French philosophy and postmodernism. Through a process of intellectualism, removing sensate input as much as possible as the form of doubt, Descartes arrives at solid conclusions. It's like an early version of the scientific method. Rev. Jared Minister | Writer | Teacher Supervised Therapist offering online counseling for people in The State of Michigan LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredingle/ Evangelical Columnist | https://www.patheos.com/blogs/jaredingle/ JCIngle YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfLHpP_H9jEE_sZNLeJos5A pic credit: Elizabeth Godfrey | photo of Descartes painted by Bourdon | 10.14.16 | public domain

This tip stands at the crossroads between Theology, psychology, sports psychology, and leadership dynamics. It is also a little personal, more so than research-based. “Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a dream fulfilled is a tree of life.” Proverbs 13.12, NLT Merry Christmas!! Rev. Jared Minister | Writer | Teacher Supervised Therapist offering online counseling for people in The State of Michigan LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredingle/ Evangelical Columnist | https://www.patheos.com/blogs/jaredingle/ JCIngle YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfLHpP_H9jEE_sZNLeJos5A pic credit: Pexels | woman sitting on a peak | 10.14.16 | pixabay

As we enter the Advent season, Dan and Rachael reflect upon Mary's Magnificat with theologian Dr. Chelle Stearns from the Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Join the conversation to consider what it means to let our hearts be open to our own places of ache yet also be open to the invitation to transform in response to this revolutionary idea of “God with us.”

It may not be widely known but Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung were nearly business partners. They parted ways over the spiritual and symbolic. Carl Jung saw it in his studies as well as individuals. So we're going to talk about spirituality... Rev. Jared Ingle Minister | Writer | Teacher Supervised Therapist offering online counseling for people in The State of Michigan LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredingle/ Evangelical Columnist | https://www.patheos.com/blogs/jaredingle/ JCIngle YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfLHpP_H9jEE_sZNLeJos5A pic credit: Sigmund Freud, Abraham Brill, Carl Jung front row | Freud's visit to Clark University | 1909 | public domain

Please do not equate pornography with the Biblical term lust Meet Jared | https://www.patheos.com/blogs/jaredingle/meet-jared/ Email Signup & Giveaway | https://mailchi.mp/bed7f66cb2f9/patheos Rev. Jared Ingle Supervised Therapist offering online therapy for individuals, couples, families, and groups within the State of Michigan

Founder & Director of the Christian Counseling Center: For Sexual Health & Trauma (CCC), Andrew J. Bauman is a licensed mental health counselor with a Master of Arts in Counseling Psychology from The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Andrew is the author of Floating Away, Stumbling Toward Wholeness, The Psychology of Porn, and (with Christy) A Brave Lament.  In today's episode, he sits down with Sathiya to share about how he got started on helping men and women experience sexually health, what it's like being a person of privilege helping those who have been objectified and ostracized in our society, the sexually healthy man framework, and how to have healthy conversations with your kids about sex.   Follow Andrew's blog Follow Andrew on Facebook Attend An Intensive Buy Andrew's book, The Sexually Healthy Man Download The Ultimate Recovery Guide For Porn Addiction (URG) at www.ultimaterecoveryguide.com

Please do not try to diagnose people in the Bible with modern day disorders. A preacher once said King Saul probably had bipolar disorder. Meet Jared | https://www.patheos.com/blogs/jaredingle/meet-jared/ Email Signup & Giveaway | https://mailchi.mp/bed7f66cb2f9/patheos Rev. Jared Ingle Supervised Therapist offering online therapy for individuals, couples, families, and groups within the State of Michigan

Dr. J. Derek McNeil, president of The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology and Cathy Lorezel, Co-founder of The Allender Center join Dan and Rachael for a special anniversary episode. They share some beginning behind-the scenes stories of how The Allender Center was birthed and what drives us to stay in this work in the future.

Forgive me my first recording on this information was interrupted. This is part 2 When I freed myself from the opinions of others I began to embrace the true calling which was being available to serve Gods people the way I am to serve them... For coaching and consulting email: ifwbuilder@gmail.com --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/kim-warner6/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/kim-warner6/support

When I freed myself from the opinions of others I began to embrace the true calling which was being available to serve Gods people the way I am to serve them... For coaching and consulting email: ifwbuilder@gmail.com --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/kim-warner6/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/kim-warner6/support

Dan and Rachael continue a conversation about grief on the podcast, this week engaging Jeanette White, Interim Senior Director of The Allender Center. Jeanette, a dear friend and colleague of our hosts, graduated from The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology with an MA in Christian Studies in 2007 and has been an essential member of The Allender Center since its founding in 2011. As you listen to their conversation, you'll hear them discuss in more depth Jeanette's story and the two sides of grief—one that is messy and hard, and the other that opens your heart and eyes to the realities that we cannot engage without walking through the valley of the shadow of death. As we are in a season of collective loss, trauma, and grief, it is our hope that grief would move us to a deeper understanding of the suffering of others and ways we can come alongside and be a catalyst for care. Listener Resources Listen to the first episode in this series, “Encountering Grief: Mary Ellen Owen” Read a blog post by Jeanette titled “The Loudness of Grief” Listen to a podcast series about “Grief, Emotions, and Essential Oils” Listen to a podcast series about “The Grief of Miscarriage”

Is your heart tired and worn out from all that 2020 has brought us? Perhaps you’re not interested in processing or reflecting on the year, and you can’t wait for 2021 to show up. Although 2020 has felt challenging on many levels, Holly and I did not want to skip over reflecting, and we also didn’t want to count it out as a horrible year. We know that God still worked during this year, and He can help us find the joy and the positive even amidst the struggles. We invited our friend Sandy Flewelling on to this episode to walk us through processing the year. Sandy does a form of counseling called Soul Care, and she provides us guidance and suggestions for how to deal with the difficulties of 2020.  Sandy shares valuable wisdom on how to accept what is, deal with the divisions in our families, churches, and communities, and how to recognize and process the grief we may be experiencing.  Topics Discussed: Why we invited Sandy on this reflection episode [1:45] What is Soul Care? [4:00] Why we need to reflect on 2020 instead of just moving on [6:20] How to begin processing what we’ve been through this year Ask 3 questions:  Who would you like to be for me in 2020? What would you like to do in me through it? How would you like me to respond? Dealing with the divisiveness in our relationships, churches, and communities [13:20] Processing our grief [22:00] Unfulfilled goals & dreams in 2020 [25:22] How leaders can process the intense criticism of this year [38:00] How to know if you need to reach out and talk to someone for support [42:00] How to look back and find the joy [47:55] Fun question of the day [51:00] Key Quotes: “Try practicing radical acceptance… simply accepting that this year has been what it was, and there’s nothing we can do to go back and change it.” “We’ve always disagreed with each other; but people are filtering themselves less and less.” “Anger is a really convenient way to push aside grief.” “2020 did not rock the Kingdom of God.” “There is no benefit in beating ourselves up for something that has already happened that we cannot go back and change… so let’s just not do it.” “Life is not a sprint.” - Esther “People can be fierce… and it’s so important to know who you are in Christ, to know the authority He has given to you, and to take yourself regularly to that place of ‘this is who I am.’”  Resources & Links: What You Should Do Before the New Year Begins (our reflection episode from 2018) Our 2019 Reflections & Lessons Learned Connect with Sandy: Website Sandy Flewelling is passionate about helping you find freedom in your relationships with God, others, and yourself. Whether speaking before a group or sharing a conversation with one in her cozy office, her deep desire is to share the good news that God loves us with a life-changing love. She attended The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology where she earned a Master’s in Counseling and now owns and operates Soul Care of Maine.  In her spare time, Sandy is a Women’s Pastor at Discover Church in Hampden, Maine. She is an unashamed lover of two long-haired felines, Buddy and Bear. Her home is in Maine, where the tender beauty of summer makes the long winters worth enduring. Connect with Esther and Holly: Esther’s other podcast, The Christian Woman Business Podcast Esther’s Website Holly’s Website Instagram Facebook Group Facebook Page   This episode was originally published on estherlittlefield.com/episode128 on Dec. 1, 2020.

2020 has been an incredible year of turmoil. It is the first year of a decade that promises to have lots of challenges.  Tom Sine and Dwight Friesen are the authors of a fresh new book, 2020s Foresight: Three Vital Practices for Thriving in a Decade of Accelerated Change. Brendan and Bob discuss with them how these three vital practices can prepare young people, ministry leaders, and marketplace Christians for a decade that promises to be incredibly challenging. How can Christians be on the front lines, changing challenges into opportunities to serve and to show the love of Christ?  Tom Sine is what we might call a futurist. He is co-founder, along with his wife Christine, of Mustard Seed Associates. For three decades, he has consulted countless churches and organizations to help them forecast and innovate for the challenges of the future. They live in an intergenerational community in Seattle where they seek to model a new way of living for the 2020s called the Mustard Seed House. He encourages and equips who he calls the New Changemakers. http://www.newchangemakers.com/about/ Dwight Friesen is a professor of practical theology at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. He has been a leading innovative church leader for years which has led him to initiatives like Parish Collective, a global movement of Christians reimagining church in, with, and for the neighborhood as well as the Inhabit Conference, a gathering of Christian leaders who share a common vision for seeing the transformation of the church through their participation in their neighborhoods. Born & raised in Canada, he now lives in Washington State with his wife Lynette. http://dwightfriesen.com/ Thanks for listening! Go to https://www.re-integrate.org/ for several years’ worth of articles on reintegrating your callings with God’s mission, online resources for further learning, links to the Reintegrate YouTube channel, and more. On Reintegrate’s podcast page, you’ll find ways to email us or call us to comment on this podcast. https://www.re-integrate.org/reintegrate-podcast/ Please consider purchasing this book from our friends Beth and Byron Borger, independent bookstore owners of Hearts and Minds Bookstore. https://www.heartsandmindsbooks.com/booknotes/

Today we’re bringing you part 2 of a 2-part conversation Dave had with his good friend, Jen Murphy. Jen is the Manger of Leadership Development, Training & Pastoral Care Team at The Allender Center at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. There she’s responsible for creating and managing systems of pastoral care and leadership development for potential and current leaders. In a recorded Zoom conversation a couple weeks ago, Jen talked about how we can walk through this season of our lives while holding onto hope in the midst of trauma. If you didn’t get a chance to hear part 1, do yourself a favor and check out Episode 44…some great stuff there that will set up part 2 that we’re bringing to you today.

We’re honored to hear from another good friend, Jen Murphy. Jen is the Manger of Leadership Development, Training & Pastoral Care Team at The Allender Center at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. There she’s responsible for creating and managing systems of pastoral care and leadership development for potential and current leaders. Dave sat down with Jen in a recorded Zoom conversation this week and talked about how we can walk through this season while holding onto hope in the midst of trauma. The conversation was so good that we wanted you to hear the whole thing…so we split it up into two parts, and we’re bringing part one of that to you today.

[Intro with Danielle and Maggie]Wendell starts by naming  how the coronavirus given racism and white supremacy back more daylight. The attack on Asian culture is brought to the forefront with mimes and racist jokes circulating on social media and even physical violence and attacks on Asian people. Dan says it's a lot like "judging books by it's color," assuming someone is sick because of their race.  Any race can get diseases, as shown throughout history. In fact, dominate culture has spread disease as was the case when Europeans came to this continent and decimated the Natives. Disease, when it originates in another culture, can be demonized... But that same narrative has not been told when the dominate culture brings the disease. The Northwest and the West Coast  appear to be tolerant and accepting of different cultures and races, "a melting pot." Wendell came to discover that it takes an event [like this] to expose the racism that is present. The coronavirus is exposing the underbelly of racism that is still residing in people. At what point do we stop and say, "Wait a minute, this isn't about the coronavirus."This isn't just adults, racism is still being passed down to our kids as seen by kids telling racist jokes at school about Asians. Dan says our relationships with people who are different than us need to be transformational relationships not transactional relationships. We can not use others for products, resources and entertainment. He challenges us, "what are you doing for them now that they are hurting, how can you be transformative in their lives?" Even more, what are we doing as a body of believes to step up and bring healing between races?Dan wonders if the coronavirus has some underlying theme; "Is God not waking us up from something?" Slow down. Stop chasing the almighty dollar. Reach out to those in need. Exposes racism. Wendell believes folks want to hold on to their own narrative. It's hard to deal with racism without acknowledging the narrative you hold.  The dominate culture often tries and even decides the narrative for people of color. With Dan's invitation to education is to actually have to learn the narrative. You have to do some of your own work. And Danielle adds that it's not just inside yourself but a commitment to work in your family,  your spouse, your children. You have to be humble enough to admit places you'd got it wrong and then talk about how you're going to do it differently.  It's starts to home with your own heart. In situations like this (pandemic) ethnicities are being pitted against one another. Dan is Korean and Black but people mostly see his Black features. And when he thinks about the trauma that people who look Asian are going through, he thinks they don't even want to go out out in public for fear of what people will say. The coronavirus has amplified this causing people to stereotype others. Racist jokes prove that there is a belief in a racial hierarchy; that some races are better than others.  What we are seeing is that "the bandaid is off and the wound [of racism] is still festering."Wendell says that times like these show that racial trauma is continuing to be lived out as an collective experience. This coronavirus is not just showing an individual wound but a collective wound that is manifesting itself in different cultures and different ways. If we need to pay attention and tend to this wound, it will repeat again and again.Wendell believe that God is trying to expose the church's silence. The church often fails to address this issue around the racial jokes and racial rhetoric. God is clearly after us for how to love justice:Micah 6:8 He has shown you, O man, what is good.    And what does the Lord require of you?To act justly and to love mercy    and to walk humbly with your God.Where is God called us to honor what Godly justice look like?We need to be honest about our history otherwise racial injustice will continue to happen over and over again. Wendell says, "That's what trauma does: trauma continues until it's addressed. We continue to reenact and relive."Dan admits, this feels like we're living in a movie. It's so wild. He believes we need to keep on our knees praying, be with our families and stop chasing meaningless other gods. He hopes and prays that there can be healing brought to the Asian community. He says, "reconciliation starts with repairing relationships... Taking the time to lament for the Asian community."  Dan is brutally honest (and appalled) at how many people of all ethnicities don't wash their hands in the bathrooms! Seeing all the videos and reminders that are out now about hand washing it's like, "Shouldn't we have been washing our hands all this time?!" It's alarming!Wendell talked about how people are in a panic. It starts because someone seeing or hearing one person panicking to get TOILET PAPER. Coronavirus is not an intestinal issue! But people will follow suit buying up toilet paper because someone else is. "And then you know what happens, stores are out of toilet paper and have plenty of kleenex! Huh?!" Danielle said they have keto bread at home for the first time because there's no bread or milk at the stores. It's a pandemonium of anxiety. Wendell honors the threat of the coronavirus--a lot of organizations are taking precautions and it is impacting what he does. He is feeling it; He's had to face a lot of cancellations. But ultimately what counts? Family. Any loss of life makes you think about mortality. What if a close family member dies?Dan says with all the cancelations of events his mind goes to church. Many churches are more than 250 people so they can't meet. Schools are shut down, sports are cancelled. Elderly are encouraged to not come out. We want to lament for the families that are impacted and hurting and then you add on to that all those who are affected by cancellations. It's just all getting real.  The school he works for has moved to online classrooms. There is also the equity piece--not all who attend public schools don't have wifi or computers. Kids who count on school lunches. Parents who can't get child care. There's so many different layers. Danielle asks us how can we practically apply love to those around us? Do the thing that is closest to us. It can look like taking your elderly neighbors trash to the street for pick up and bringing it in. It can help with feeding the neighbor kid who is on free school lunches. Maybe you buy Chinese take-out. Asian businesses are taking huge hit. "You can't do everything but you can do something little." Wendell agrees, "Let's care for people really well and not minimize their experience."  We can be aware of the position that people are in--Dan said there's a lot anxiety for teacher about going to online learning. Teachers will not be able to see the kids they are teaching or ask answer their questions. Some colleges are telling their students if they go to certain areas, including Seattle, that they can not return to school. The choice it then between their family and their school. Everyone is having to make hard decisions. The cost of precaution is good but are these decisions being made with a sensitivity to people's socioeconomic status? Not everyone is on the same playing field of resources. Including homeless students who's home is at school; They will not have food or water. Is this a call for churches to step up? Shelters are already full. There are no more beds even before the coronavirus. How can we chip in? How can we contribute?Wendell says that sometimes we feel like we can't possibly do enough, but we need to not underestimate what ONE PERSON can do. The economy of God is not the same as our economy. Dan says, Let's not forget the fundamentals: We have to be in prayer. Get in the word. Be in communion with the body of believers. The gospel challenges us to be ACTIVE: whether it be preaching the word, healing, restoration, reconciliation, finding resources, love on those who need to be loved, take a stand for what's right, help the marginalized, help those who have been dehumanized...We've had black lives matter, issues with the border, the coronavirus.. Danielle says "It's time to do something!" We need to be there for our neighbor. Wendell says "When folks hear racist jokes, don't let it slide!" It's not helpful and it's not fair. Point out racism. Speak up. Keeping talking about these things online and with your families. ---Wendell Moss BioWendell Moss is a therapist, minister, educator, and speaker. Wendell serves as a part of the instructional staff at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology in Seattle, WA where he received his Master of Arts in Counseling Psychology in 2007. Wendell has also been a core member of The Allender Center at The Seattle School's executive leadership team and Teaching Staff since its creation in 2010. Alongside his work with The Seattle School and The Allender Center, Wendell practices as a therapist in the Seattle area.Wendell is fiercely committed to engaging the impact of sexual abuse and trauma, including racial trauma. He courageously and compassionately follows Jesus into realms of healing in the most wounded places, especially the places where people are bound by relational heartache, addictions, shame, and contempt. Although he is privileged and delighted to work with both men and women, Wendell loves to create contexts of healing for men, especially African American men.Wendell started his ministry career with Inter-varsity in Chicago where he served college students for almost a decade. He is an unapologetic Bears fan, so even when it's not game day one can expect to find Wendell proudly sporting a jersey from his rotating collection of Tommie Harris, Brian Urlacher, Walter Payton, and Jay Cutler.Dan Taylor Coach Dan Taylor has twenty years of coaching boys and girls in the sports of basketball, football, soccer, and track and field.  Currently he is the varsity head girl's basketball coach at King's.  He teaches PE, Health and Faith and Justice at King's High school.  He helps lead the King's C.A.R.E. team (Community, Action, Reconciliation, and Equity) and has done Race, Culture, Diversity and Equity work in the public and private schools.  Since 2012, Coach Taylor has been the Washington State Girls Basketball Coaches Association President.  He has been an ASB Advisor, Link Crew Advisor, Black Student Union Advisor, Fellowship of Christian Athletes Advisor, and Social Justice Club Advisor.  He has a Master's in School Counseling From Seattle Pacific University and has led workshops on Culturally Responsive Coaching, Team Leadership, College Recruiting, Team Building, and sport-specific sessions.  He is Black and Korean and loves working with students of bi-racial backgrounds by helping them find strength in their identity through their cultural background and academic journeys.

In this episode I sit down with my mentor and psychologist, Roy Barsness, PhD, and discuss the transformative power of relationship. We touch on the significance of knowing your why and part of what inspired this podcast to come to be as seen in Michael Jr's video entitled, Know Your Why. Roy is the author of Core Competencies of Relational Psychoanalysis, and the founder of Relationally Focused Psychodynamic Therapy, a post-grad certificate program for therapists, in which I am a teacher and facilitator. He is also a professor of psychology at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Bryan Nixon is a psychotherapist and the founder and clinical director of Mindful Counseling GR in Grand Rapids, MI. He is also a teacher and facilitator in Relationally Focused Psychodynamic Therapy, a post-grad continuing education program for therapists.  

Rachael Clinton-Chen is a trauma specialist, pastor, preacher, and therapeutic practitioner. She serves as the Director of Organizational Development for The Allender Center at The Seattle School, as well as a part of the teaching and training team. She is a stormborn woman of the Oklahoma plains, but relocated to Seattle over a decade ago where she received a Master of Divinity at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology in 2010.Rachael is devoted to bringing healing, hope, and radical welcome at the prophetic and pastoral intersection of trauma, embodiment, and spiritual formation. She has deep convictions that our stories shape our biblical imagination and the way in which we experience and participate in God's unfolding story. While offering both sanctuary and a call to action, Rachael engages the elements of our stories that distort and disorder as well as reveal and illuminate God's story and our place within it.In this episode, she offers wisdom on call to action, transformation of living in the here-and-now and the not-yet. Rachael also speaks to the locatedness with which we read the Bible, how this affects our theology, and practical living.She is Inspired by the short film, live action nominated films for the Oscars - the story-tellers who are trying to capture different perspective of stories and the complexity of humanity. She is inspired by story-tellers who give her the privilege to step into their worlds.She is reading fantasy novels by women of color, "Children of Blood and Bone" and "The Fifth Season" and reading "My Grandmother's Home: radicalized trauma and the pathway to healing our hearts and bodies". She is listening to a lot of kid's music (i.e. the muffin song).CONTACTWebsite: https://theallendercenter.org/about/team/rachael-clinton

Revisiting an insightful conversation between Dr. Dan Allender and Dr. Steve Call, a therapist and Affiliate Faculty member at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, about how unaddressed hurt and shame can harm meaningful connections in marriage and practical tools to help rebuild connection where it has been lost.

Enjoying God Help Us? Please rate and review on Apple Podcasts.  - The Old Testament is a complicated, weird, beautiful, and at times infuriating collection of texts. In this episode, I talk with the Reverend Dr. J. P. Kang about the Old Testament and try to unpack what it is and what it isn’t - and how we see it used culturally and politically in the US today. J. P. is an Associate Pastor at Japanese Presbyterian Church of Seattle and an Affiliate member of the Theology Faculty at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, where he teaches biblical languages and literature.  RECOMMENDED RESOURCES: The Grammar of God The Hebrew Bible Holy Resilience The Genesis of Good and Evil “The Bible’s #MeToo Problem” “Sexy Sunday School: Naughty Bible Translation” Bruce Metzger's New York Times obituary FIND J. P.: Jpresby.org - I’m Annie Mesaros: a theologian, writer, spiritual guide, and host of this podcast. I offer coaching and facilitation for individuals and groups that are working to transform the world for good.  Learn more and contact me at anniemesaros.com. Follow the podcast on Instagram @godhelppod.

How can we lead most effectively in a ministry role? Why is it important to do what you love and embrace your gifting instead of trying to do it all? And how can developing a team help a ministry to grow and thrive? Subscribe to the podcast here This post contains affiliate links, which means if you choose to make a purchase via one of the links, we will receive a commission at no extra cost to you. This helps to support the costs of running the podcast and blog. In this episode, I talk with Holly and our church’s women’s minister, Sandy Flewelling, about how to be an effective, God-centered leader, how to not do ministry on your own, and how we can serve the women in our church’s women’s ministry. Sandy’s Leadership Journey: Sandy says that she fell into leadership. As an introvert, she never intended to be a leader. When she moved back to Maine, she found herself increasingly getting involved in her church’s women’s ministry. She noticed that her heart came alive as she worked with and taught women. After insisting that she wasn’t a leader, she realized that she was rewriting then teaching her church’s Bible studies. She felt the Holy Spirit pressing on her that she could write her own material. Sandy felt like leadership had to look a certain way and required certain skills. She realized that she was a leader when she understood that she didn’t have to be everything.  Sandy’s Mentors Her pastor’s wife saw in and called out gifts that Sandy didn’t see in herself. A women’s ministry co-leader, Karen Reynolds, was supportive and reminded her that she didn’t have to be or do everything on her own.  How Sandy Embraced her Wiring as a Leader: Sandy reminds us to not take at face value that you’ll always be who you are right now.  Sandy’s Advice for Younger Leaders: Focus on what you love. Work in places where you get life and energy. What if you have an idea that isn’t in your skill set for your church? Trust that God will raise up the right person. Building an Effective Women’s Ministry Team Sandy’s role at her church as women’s minister is to teach and shepherd women. She does this through event planning, overseeing women’s Bible studies, prayer groups, and small groups. She sets the vision for how women’s ministry executes the mission of the church as well as representing women to the church leadership team. How Holly and Sandy Worked Together Holly had been involved with other ministries at church, but knew they weren’t her thing. She just wanted to be around Sandy, which works out well because they are a natural fit. After Sandy’s fellow women’s ministry leader stepped down, Sandy asked Holly to help her. Sandy’s gift is teaching and setting the vision + direction. Holly’s gift is executing that vision and having a heart for the women in church. When Holly came into leading the women’s retreat, she felt overwhelmed to make it perfect. Then she realized her job was to mentor those who were supervising each area, i.e. food, registration, decoration. Her job was to set the tone for the retreat so in each meeting, she reviewed the mission and ensure that each woman on her team feel cared for and welcomed. The importance of not doing women’s ministry on your own The biggest advantage of not doing everything on your own is that you get to do what you love. What you love, you do well. Three challenges of working with a team Personalities respond and work together in different ways. This can be stressful, but as a leader, you need others. Here are some tips as you work with a team: Trust others to get things done, even if how they do ministry differs from you. Continually communicate the vision. Trust God to use the outcomes for His glory. Sometimes people have to step out of their roles (family emergency, a move, etc.) so other members of the team will need to be ready to step in. This happens through mentorship, training, and trust. Communication is always a challenge. Here are two tips: Make sure people hear what they’re supposed to execute. Explain how each piece fits within the vision.  What do women need from women’s ministry? Sandy believes that what everyone truly needs is time and opportunity to be intentionally face-to-face with God. But they may not realize what they need, so you need to provide this in ways that will allow it to happen. Sandy and Holly both feel that what women need and want in churches are the following:  Connection with each other. Depth in our relationship with God. A purpose; a place to fit in in God’s kingdom. Mentors, those ahead of us who have Bible knowledge, life wisdom, and a willingness to pour both out. Ways women’s ministry can meet these needs Ultimately, the goal of any women’s ministry is to make a place for people to be who they are, to love what they love, and to come together in a place where they feel comfortable. Depth, connection, and purpose are met in the context of small groups. Bringing together a diversity of ages in small groups helps us connect with others and Jesus. Coming together as the body of Christ is found in a larger event context. How someone can start or strengthen the women’s ministry in their church: Start praying for God to raise us who can partner with you. Don’t be afraid to partner with other Bible-believing churches. Don’t try to do everything. Actually identify the needs of your church. Do the most important things. Make a place where people can encounter the living God. Look around and see what’s already happening. Speak life over this. Encourage and pray for who is already leading well. Pour into women you’re already gathering with. Ask how you can contribute instead of being frustrated by what’s not happening. Sandy’s book recommendation:  Shrink by Tim Suttle Key Quotes from this Episode: “A leader doesn’t have to be everything.” - Sandy  “I don’t have to trust in myself to be able to do this job. I can trust God to empower me to do what’s not in my skill set.” -Sandy “There is no way one person can do it all.” -Holly “Be willing to jump even if you’re scared out of your mind.”- Holly  “What we most need is time and opportunity to be intentionally face-to-face with God because that’s the place where healing, growth, and life happen.” - Sandy  “God is in it for a relationship with you, and He wants to display His glory to other people.” - Holly   “Celebrate what’s small and healthy.” -Holly Connect with Sandy: Website Sandy Flewelling is wildly passionate about helping you find freedom through a relationship with Jesus Christ. Whether speaking before a crowd in a retreat setting or sharing a conversation with one in her cozy office, her desire is to be faithful and true to the God who loves us and changes us with that love. She has been a graphic designer for 25 years and is the owner of TrueBlue Design. But smack dab in the middle of that career she decided she wanted another one, so Sandy attended The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology where she earned her Master's in Counseling. In her spare time, Sandy is a Women's Minister at Church of the Open Door in Hampden, Maine as well as a self-proclaimed toilet paper ninja and unashamed lover of two long-haired felines, Buddy and Bear. Her home is in Maine, where the tender beauty of summer makes the long winters worth enduring.  Stay Connected: Subscribe on your favorite podcast app. Click here to find all the options where you can find the podcast.  Join our Purposeful Leadership Facebook group! In the Facebook group, we can chat about what you need as a leader, what your challenges are, as well as celebrate the wins. This is a great community to learn and grow together. We want to get to know YOU. Other Podcast Episodes Mentioned: Episode 1: Our Leadership Journeys and What to Expect Episode 10: Finding Your Purpose Episode 19: The Value of Mentoring with Elisa Pulliam Other Ways to Connect with Esther & Holly and the Christian Woman Leadership Podcast: Esther’s Instagram Holly’s Instagram Podcast Instagram Facebook Page Episode Sponsor: Confident Leader Club Today’s show is brought to you by the Confident Leader Club. If you’re a Christian woman leading in ministry or business, and you have a desire for deeper community with other leaders, accountability towards reaching your goals, access to ALL the downloads I’ve created, monthly bonus content including workshops and trainings on specific topics, and much more, I want to invite you to check it out. Visit confidentleaderclub.com to learn more.   This episode was first published on estherlittlefield.com/episode42.

Jon serves as the Executive Director, transition guide and workshop facilitator at Liminal Space.  Throughout his personal life and professional career, Jon has discovered that handling transition well will allow for a deeper and more fulfilling life. A native of Michigan, Jon began his career after graduating from Hope College like any other – landing a job that was ‘fine.’ It paid well, offered a comfortable lifestyle, and promised many great career opportunities. But a few years in, waves of discontent just wouldn’t go away. He started asking questions, having conversations, reading and began meeting with a mentor. Over the course of about 18 months, he explored the questions: Now what? and Where do I go from here? It was within this discontent that he started to intentionally explore what the next chapter of his life could be. Jon came to Seattle in 2003 to attend The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology (formerly known as Mars Hill Graduate School); ultimately receiving his Masters of Divinity in 2007. Through his education, mentoring and the struggles and discoveries of his transitions, Jon found a more natural fit for his career – creating a practice called Liminal Space that combines the often segregated disciplines of spiritual direction, life coaching and counseling. Through this work, he’s come to know and believe in the power of transformation while a person is located in a moment of transition – a liminal space. Though often very challenging and many liminal spaces conjure up many unwanted things, it’s where the most true things in life are found.  It’s where God joins us and anticipates seeing some of the best of who we are, and how we fit into the story. Outside of Liminal Space, Jon enjoys living life with his wife and three young sons. Links Website: inaliminalspace.org Podcast: listen to my episode of the Life Through Transitions Podcast(Episode 3) John's TEDx Talk: Two Factors that Make or Break Every Major Life Transitionfrom TEDx Tacoma 2018 Facebook Twitter: @inaliminalspace Instagram: @inaliminalspace Vimeo Subscribe to The Do a Day Podcast     Keep Growing with Do a Day Get the book in print, Kindle, iBooks, Audiobookand more - even get a personally-signedcopy from Bryan Falchuk Get started on your journey to Better with the Big Goal Exercise Work with Bryan as your coach, or hire him to speak at your next event  

I'm so honored to introduce you today's guest! Jonathan DeWaal is with us today to discuss the timing of improvisation, especially as it pertains to seasons of bravery and transition! Jon is the executive director of Liminal Space, a nonprofit organization based out of Seattle, WA which is dedicated to helping others find the courage and means to navigate major life transition. One nugget of a quote he laid down in today's conversation is this: "The gold we're often looking for is found in the place where you find the most discomfort." So true. We're not just talking about the discomfort of transition, but also two really powerful questions to ask when we find ourselves smack in the center of a liminal space or transition: - How did I get here? - Who do I want to become now? He also gave us a wealth of resources towards the end of our conversation, which I'll be sure to pop the links to all of it in the show notes for this episode. Thank you so much Jon for stepping into today's conversation with your whole presence. All of us going through transitions thank you immensely. Before we pop into the conversation, let me just say this. You probably know of someone going through a season of bravery and transition. If you do, share this episode with them. Another resource I'll just put out here because it's thematically resonant: The Seasons of Bravery Ritual Workshop is waiting for you on emilyannpeterson.com/workshops - it's a series of videos, guidebook, and 6 steps to help you make some plans and attain some goals. So if you find yourself in a season where you might need to take a step back and acknowledge the sacredness of discomfort and growth, go for it! Additional options for taking next steps are to go listen to Jon's new podcast called, "Life Through Transitions." (https://inaliminalspace.org) He and I took a deeper dive into my own stories of transition to unpack that liminal space for his audience. We got to talk about elements of my story that I don't often discuss, so if you're curious, that link is also in the show notes. With allll that, I am delighted to introduce Jon DeWaal... Brave Takeaway Beyond your free Bravery Bundle (which is always available at barenakedbravery.com) your Brave Take-Away from today's show is to ask those two questions to a friend going through transition. Bonus points go to those who actually sit down and listen to your friends answers. Having a witness for your own transitions is immensely healing and helpful, but being a witness to someone else's metamorphosis is equally so. We'd love to hear all about your favorite parts of today's Bare Naked Bravery. You can find Jonathan DeWaal and myself on facebook, twitter, instagram, and more. Go ahead and tag us so we can cheer you on and see what you're up to. More Resources Book: "Transitions" by William Bridges Book: "Crossing the Unknown Sea" by David Whyte Book: "To Be Told" by Dan Allender More About Jon DeWaal Jon came to Seattle in 2003 from Grand Rapids, MI, to attend The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology receiving his Masters of Divinity in 2007.  Since then, he taught at The Seattle School as an adjunct professor on calling and career. Jon served for two years as a fellow and teacher at The Allender Center for Trauma & Abuse.  Through his education, mentoring and the struggles and discoveries of his transitions, Jon found a more natural fit for his career – creating Liminal Space, an organization that combines the often segregated disciplines of counseling, life coaching, career counseling and spiritual direction.  Over the last 10 years his work and research has shown that major transitions are places where people can find their desired path and become stronger, or where they can get stuck – sometimes for years. Having a plan, helpful guidance, and a clear focus can make all the difference in the world. Keep in Touch with Jonathan DeWaal Inaliminalspace.orghttps://www.instagram.com/inaliminalspace/ https://www.facebook.com/inaliminalspace/ https://twitter.com/inaliminalspace Keep in Touch with Emily Ann Peterson http://emilyannpeterson.comhttp://instagram.com/emilyannpete http://facebook.com/emilyannpeterson http://twitter.com/emilyapeterson Credits If you're diggin' the music in today's episode, that's because it's brought to you by my friends at Music Box Licensing, a premier creative music agency dedicated to finding and crafting unique soundtracks. To find out more about all the artists, musicians, and other sponsors of the show, please visit barenakedbravery.com/sponsors 3 Ways You Can Support the Bravery! Leave a review on iTunes We would LOVE it if you'd leave a podcast rating or review on iTunes.   Simply click here to get started >>> http://bit.ly/bnbrr Share this episode with a friend If you have a friend who might really love/need to hear this episode, what are you waiting for?! Email, text, fb message, snail mail - all great options! Become a Patron of Bare Naked Bravery Every patron gets awesome goodies, super early advance links to Emily Ann's new songs & releases, and so much more! $1 Monthly$3 Monthly$5 Monthly$10 Monthly$15 Monthly$25 Monthly$100 Monthly I'm looking forward to being with you next week. We have some great things in store for you! Until then I have one message for you. It's this: Be yourself. Be vulnerable. Be brave. Because the world needs more of your Bare Naked Bravery.

Tony's special guest for this episode is a prominent therapist, author, professor, and speaker who focuses on sexual abuse and trauma recovery... among many other important issues... Dr. Dan Allender. Dr. Allender is one of the founders and former President of The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology in Seattle, Washington... and has authored numerous books including... * The Wounded Heart * Bold Love * The Cry of The Soul * God Loves Sex Tony... and his wife Sheri... were both introduced to Dr. Allender's books and conferences when the disaster of their marriage led them to begin their counseling process.  These resources contributed to their healing journey in a significant way.  Although Tony and Sheri had both been sexually abused during adolescence... neither of them understood that they had been sexually abused... or how their sexual abuse had damaged their hearts and lives... and was still damaging their ability to be sexually healthy together as a married couple.  Understanding their sexual abuse... and dealing with the corresponding issues became a significant stepping stone in Tony and Sheri's healing journey.   It's a sad reality that many people... both men and women... have experienced sexual abuse at some point in their life.   Dr. Allender helps us understand what sexual abuse is... how sexual abuse profoundly harms our soul... and how to find the hope and healing that only God can offer our lives. theallendercenter.org

Tony's special guest for this episode - and the next - is a prominent therapist, author, professor, and speaker who focuses on sexual abuse and trauma recovery... among many other important issues... Dr. Dan Allender. Dr. Allender is one of the founders and former President of The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology in Seattle, Washington... and has authored numerous books including... * The Wounded Heart * Bold Love * The Cry of The Soul * God Loves Sex Tony... and his wife Sheri... were both introduced to Dr. Allender's books and conferences when the disaster of their marriage led them to begin their counseling process.  These resources contributed to their healing journey in a significant way.  Although Tony and Sheri had both been sexually abused during adolescence... neither of them understood that they had been sexually abused... or how their sexual abuse had damaged their hearts and lives... and was still damaging their ability to be sexually healthy together as a married couple.  Understanding their sexual abuse... and dealing with the corresponding issues became a significant stepping stone in Tony and Sheri's healing journey.   It's a sad reality that many people... both men and women... have experienced sexual abuse at some point in their life.   Dr. Allender helps us understand what sexual abuse is... how sexual abuse profoundly harms our soul... and how to find the hope and healing that only God can offer our lives. theallendercenter.org

This week, Dr. Dan Allender continues his conversation with Joel Murphy, a member of the Board of Trustees at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, about the mission of The Seattle School and the long, hard journey of turning a dream into a reality. The next chapter of that journey involves selecting a new President, so in this episode Dan and Joel invite you to help us spread the word. You can learn more at theseattleschool.edu/presidential-search.

This week, Dr. Dan Allender is joined by Joel Murphy, a member of the Board of Trustees at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, to talk about the mission of The Seattle School and the long, hard journey of turning a dream into a reality. Dan and Joel reflect on the importance of transformative education, and they look toward The Seattle School's next chapter as Joel shares about leading the search for a new President.

Author, Speaker, Teacher and Professor Dr. Dan Allender joins Tray and Mel for episode 109 of the show to discuss the upcoming film, The Heart of Man, and the importance of entering into our own narrative in order for true healing to occur. An expert in sexual trauma, Dr. Allender shares practical insight into the journey to wholeness. A co-founder of The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, he is the author of The Wounded Heart, The Healing Path, To Be Told, and God Loves Sex, and the co-author of Intimate Allies, The Cry of the Soul, Bold Love, and Bold Purpose. Don’t miss Dr. Allender and Tray and Mel in the upcoming film, The Heart of Man, a modern retelling of the Prodigal story that invites the sons and daughters of God to discover His relentless love for them. The movie will be shown across the country on Thursday, September 14th! Connect with Dr. Allender and The Allender Center on Facebook and Twitter.

This week, in the conclusion of the Spectrum of Trauma series, Dr. Dan Allender is joined by Dr. Angela Parker, Assistant Professor of Biblical Studies at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Dan and Dr. Parker discuss a particular form of trauma that is often dismissed as insignificant: microaggressions that are born out of racism, bias, and prejudice toward others.

This week, Dan Allender concludes a conversation with Dr. Keith Anderson, President of The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, about Keith's new book, A Spirituality of Listening. Dan and Keith talk about how authentic spirituality will always invite the language of lament and the hope of finding God even in the midst of pain.

This week, Dan Allender continues a conversation with Dr. Keith Anderson, President of The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, about Keith's new book, A Spirituality of Listening. Dan and Keith talk about what it means to embody both pragmatism and mysticism, and about how both perspectives can teach us to listen more deeply for the voice of God.

This week, Dan Allender is joined by Dr. Keith Anderson, President of The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, to talk about Keith's new book, A Spirituality of Listening. Dan and Keith discuss what it means to listen for the voice of God in a world that is inundated with screens and soundbites.

This week on The Allender Center Podcast, Dan continues the “Training Wounded Healers” series all about our signature Training Certificate, a year-long program that guides individuals through engagement with their own stories of harm and trauma for the sake of learning to offer healing and restoration in the stories of others. Here, Dan is joined by Cathy Loerzel, MA, co-founder and Executive Director of The Allender Center, and Rachael Clinton, MDiv, a pastor, certificate facilitator, and member of our Teaching Staff. Cathy and Rachael are also graduates of The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.