Podcast appearances and mentions of paul gowder

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If you're building your dream business, how do you ensure work doesn't overshadow the experiences that truly matter to you? In this inspiring episode of Dealcasters, entrepreneur and community-building expert Paul Gowder unpacks how he built one of the internet's largest online communities—all while prioritizing 42 memorable family trips to Disney World. Paul shares actionable insights into email marketing, giveaways, and intentional strategies for growing a thriving, sustainable business that fits your lifestyle. Tune in to learn how to scale your success without sacrificing meaningful moments.

Welcome to this episode of Digital Coffee: Marketing Brew! I'm your host, Brett Deister, and today we're diving into the magic of building community through email marketing. Joining me is Paul Gowder, owner of powwows.com, an esteemed online community celebrating Native American arts and culture for over 25 years. Paul shares his unique insights into transforming email from a simple communication tool into a vibrant community hub. We discuss the old-school charm of email marketing, how to effectively communicate and engage with your audience, and the art of personalizing your approach to build authentic relationships. Whether you're a marketer or just curious about email strategies, this conversation will inspire you to see email marketing in a whole new light. So settle in with your favorite brew and let's get started!Speaker Bio:Paul Gowder is a passionate advocate for Native American culture and the founder of powellows.com, a platform dedicated to fostering understanding and connection with Native American traditions. His venture serves as a vital resource for Native individuals seeking to maintain ties with their heritage and for those curious about exploring these rich cultural traditions. Through a variety of educational offerings, including articles, podcasts, and live videos, Paul ensures that powwows and the broader cultural experiences are accessible to all. His work encourages public participation and aims to bridge communities by inviting everyone to experience and appreciate the vibrant tapestry of Native American culture.TimeStamp:

After a lot of feedback on the first episode about podcast newsletters, I wanted to answer more questions, and this time I brought Paul Gowder to help. We'll discuss what tools to use and what content to include. If you really want to skip this whole newsletter thing, we've got some backup plans for you, too. Paul not only has wisdom about newsletters, but we also talk about building his community.Spoiler alert: You might even want to ditch social media for this! Buckle up, because we're about to make your newsletter dreams a reality.Takeaways: Start building your podcast newsletter today; it's like planting a seed for growth. Don't overthink content; even simple updates can keep your audience engaged and informed. Use email as a direct line to your audience; it's way better than shouting into the social media void. If you're not asking for emails, you're missing out—it's like having a party and not inviting anyone. Be cautious with Facebook. They may delete your group with 85,000 people in it.Mentioned In This Episodeschoolofpodcasting.compaulgouder.comPaul's Free Strategiespaulgowder.com/emailtoolsPaul's Email Jump StartWhat to expect at your first Powow.schoolofpodcasting.com/972 - Part 1 about Newslettersschoolofpodcasting.com/974 - This episodeJef Sieh's Social Media News Live PodcastTools Mentioned:SustackSendfoxMailerliteKitNewsletter DatabaseLiz Wilcox TemplatesGroup Leads for gathering emails from Facebook Groups.Mentioned in this episode:Do You Need a Podcast CoachBill Gates, Steve Jobs, Oprah Winfrey, and many others have had COACHES to help them with an outside view to help them shape their content. I will start my 20th year in podcasting and would love to help you follow the best practices of podcasting, and avoid the common mistakes and avoid those steps that lead to burnout. School of PodcastingQuestion of the Month: Let's Talk AIForm a listener, are you using AI, if so what tools, what do you create, and do you...

You set up a Facebook group, invited people to join, and started posting consistently… but no one is engaging. Sound familiar?Many coaches assume that creating a group equals building a community—but without real engagement, it's just another dead space online. In this episode, Paul Gowder, founder of a 130,000+ member community, reveals why most Facebook groups fail and what it really takes to build an engaged, thriving community that grows itself.By the End of This Episode, You'll Know:Spark real conversations.Create loyal fans.How to stop wasting time on posts no one sees.About Paul Gowder:Paul Gowder is the founder of PowWows.com, a thriving online community with over 130,000 members. With decades of experience in community building, he helps coaches and business owners grow engaged, sustainable communities that drive real impact—without relying on social media algorithms.Want to build a community that actually works? Paul's insights will show you how.

You started your coaching business to help people—not to spend hours scheduling calls, chasing invoices, and managing emails. But somehow, the admin work never stops. You've probably thought about automating some of it, but you don't want your business to feel impersonal or “robotic.”That's exactly where Joe Casabona found himself. As a former software engineer turned solopreneur, he thought working harder was the answer—until he nearly burned out. That's when he discovered that automation isn't about doing less—it's about making space for what matters most. In this episode, he shares how to use automation to save time without losing the personal touch.By the End of This Episode, You'll Know:✅ Why automating doesn't mean losing the personal touch. Most coaches think automation makes things feel robotic—but done right, it actually strengthens client relationships.✅ The biggest automation mistake coaches make. You're probably automating the wrong things (or avoiding the things that could save you the most time).✅ How to know when to automate vs. delegate. If you think you can't afford automation or a VA, this episode will completely shift your perspective.✅ The easiest automations to start with—even if you're not tech-savvy. These simple tweaks will free up hours this week, without complicated software or hiring a team.About Joe Casabona:Joe Casabona knows what it's like to be overwhelmed by the business side of coaching. After leaving his corporate job to work for himself, he quickly realized he was spending more time on admin than his actual work. That's when he started using automation to cut out the busywork—and everything changed.Now, Joe helps business owners streamline their processes so they can focus on what actually moves the needle. Connect with Joe Casabona:

Get your ticket to the Love Your Marketing Summit In this episode of the Purpose Profits and Pixie Dust podcast, host Lindsay Dollinger welcomes Paul Gowder to discuss his journey as an accidental entrepreneur and his expertise in email marketing. Gouder shares how he built a strong online community and offers insights into engaging audiences through email sequences. He explains the benefits of simple text-based emails over fancy PDFs and how Facebook lead ads can efficiently grow an email list. Additionally, he details his new project aimed at building a personal brand from zero to a thousand subscribers, sharing his strategies for segmented email series and leveraging video content across multiple platforms. Tune in to learn actionable tips for enhancing your email marketing and community engagement. 00:00 Welcome to the Podcast 00:42 Meet Paul Gowder: Accidental Entrepreneur 01:14 The Power of Community and Email Marketing 03:16 Automating Email Sequences 06:43 Personal Stories in Emails 08:38 Effective Email Strategies 16:43 Building and Engaging Your Community 19:12 Using Facebook Lead Ads 23:46 Growing Your Personal Brand 26:03 Conclusion and How to Connect with Paul Learn more about the travel agent business or get quotes for a trip: https://www.lindsaydollinger.com/travel Join the Confident and Ambitious Mastermind: https://www.lindsaydollinger.com/mastermind Connect with Lindsay: https://www.lindsaydollinger.com Get your ticket to Purpose, Profits, and Pixie Dust Live here: https://lindsaydollinger.regfox.com/purpose-profits-and-pixie-dust-live Get 10% off your order at https://www.bellablingshop.com with code PODCAST Tag @purposeprofitsandpixiedust on IG when you listen and share the show! Connect with Paul: www.paulgowder.com/emailtools Please subscribe to the show and leave a quick review! Appreciate you!

Let's Help Your Guests Build Their Dream Lifestyle! I'm Paul Gowder, the founder of PowWows.com, an online community celebrating Native American arts and culture for 25 years. I also coach business owners by helping them build engaged online communities. I built PowWows.com into a successful business while working full-time. My goal was to create a lifestyle of traveling for my family, like traveling to Disney World more than 42 times. Yeah, that kind of magic entrepreneurship has brought into my life! Topics include: Overcoming Obstacles while Working Full Time: I reveal how to manage time like a pro, even with a demanding day job. Plus, we can uncover the secrets of discipline, perseverance, and goal-setting for long-term success. Community Building: Let's talk about the sheer power of cultivating a supportive community. We explore innovative ways to leverage social media platforms and collaborations to build an engaged and buzzing audience. Email Marketing: Do you ever wonder how email marketing can be a game-changer for community building, increasing traffic, and driving sales? I share what I send, how I segment, and how I grow my list. You can find more information about me and my business on my website - www.paulgowder.com. Website Building, Maintenance, and Coaching Discussion Michael and Paul discussed building and maintaining the Powerless website, which offers services and connection points globally. Michael expressed interest in learning more about the website's one-on-one coaching aspect. They also touched on the challenges of connecting with different regions, particularly in the United States, where there are 50 states with diverse practices. The conversation was briefly interrupted due to technical issues with Michael's internet connection. Building the Powwows Website and Community Growth Michael and Paul discussed Paul's experience in building the Powwows website. Paul shared that he initially started the website as a personal project while in graduate school, learning about powwows and teaching himself HTML and PHP coding. The website grew as the community expanded, with people asking for information on powwows in different states. Paul's role in state government shifted from a planner to an IT project manager and development manager as he gained more knowledge in web development. Community, Connection, and Career Growth Michael and Paul discussed the importance of community and connection in a world driven by social media. Paul shared his journey from a passion project to a career, highlighting the twists and turns that led him to his current role. Michael emphasized the role of community in ensuring growth and thriving, using the success of a site as an example. The conversation then shifted to Paul's recent involvement in one-on-one coaching, with Michael asking for insights into what Paul is helping people with. Addressing Algorithm Changes and Email Marketing Paul and Michael discussed the challenges businesses face due to changes in search engine algorithms and social media platforms. They emphasized the importance of community building and the role of email marketing in connecting with customers. Michael expressed frustration with companies that don't engage with customers during such changes. At the same time, Paul suggested that email marketing could be a powerful tool for building community and serving customers better. They also discussed the risks of relying solely on social media platforms, suggesting using email communities or community apps as alternatives. Paul shared his group's experience with Facebook's new rule against selling animal parts, which has affected their Facebook group's operations. Both agreed on the importance of diversifying communication channels to avoid relying too much on one platform. Adapting to Technological Advancements in Business Michael and Paul discussed the importance of community building and direct messaging in the online world, emphasizing the need for businesses to adapt to the constantly shifting landscape due to AI and other technological advancements. They agreed that relying solely on platforms like Google and Facebook is risky and that businesses need to learn how to use tools like email, text messaging, and other direct messaging platforms in a conversational and personal manner to engage with their audience. Paul also shared his excitement about upcoming events and offered his services for business growth.

Send us a textIn this episode of Imperfect Marketing, Kendra Corman talks with Paul Gowder, the founder of PowWows.com, the leading online community celebrating Native American arts and culture for over 25 years. Paul shares his insights on how he built one of the largest and most engaged online communities while maintaining a full-time job. Whether you're looking to build a community from scratch or scale an existing one, Paul's advice on community building, email marketing, and audience engagement is invaluable.Key Topics Discussed:Defining Community Beyond Social MediaStrategies for Building an Online CommunityOvercoming Challenges in Community GrowthThe Power of Email Marketing in Community BuildingHow to Create Value-Driven Email SequencesThe Importance of Knowing and Evolving with Your AudienceResources Mentioned:PowWows.com: The leading online community for Native American culture and events.Paul Gowder's Courses and Coaching: Learn more about Paul's coaching opportunities and courses.Connect with Paul Gowder:Website: PowWows.comLinkedIn:linkedin.com/in/paul-gowder-5a67473b/ Subscribe to Imperfect Marketing on your favorite podcast platform, and connect with Kendra Corman on LinkedIn for more marketing insights.  Looking to leverage AI? Want better results? Want to think about what you want to leverage?Check and see how I am using it for FREE on YouTube. From "Holy cow, it can do that?" to "Wait, how does this work again?" – I've got all your AI curiosities covered. It's the perfect after-podcast snack for your tech-hungry brain. Watch here

Are you struggling to build an engaged email list? In this episode, email marketing expert Paul Gowder reveals his "secret sauce" for turning casual subscribers into an active, thriving community. With over 1 million Facebook followers and multiple successful online ventures, Paul shares why most entrepreneurs approach email marketing backwards - and how to fix it. You'll discover why simple lead magnets often outperform fancy PDFs, how to craft welcome sequences that spark real conversations, and why having fewer engaged subscribers beats having a massive cold list. Plus, Paul shares his inspiring story of building businesses while prioritizing family time (including 42 trips to Disney World!). Whether you're just starting your email list or looking to revitalize an existing one, this episode delivers actionable strategies you can implement right away to boost engagement and build authentic connections with your audience.  

Ever wondered how to build a thriving online community around your side hustle? It'd be both fun and profitable. In this episode, we're joined by Paul Gowder who has done just that. While his community at PowWows.com has grown to a social media following of over 1 million people,  there is so much more to his story. Paul's journey began with a simple intention—to share what he was learning about Powwows. But as more people started asking him questions and connecting with one another, a community naturally emerged. Paul's income sources include; advertising and sponsorships, video live streaming, product sales, affiliate marketing, and Patreon. You'll hear amazing insights and actionable strategies for growing and engaging your online community. From using contests to boost engagement, to the way he incentivizes people to explore his content deeper, Paul's tips are invaluable for building a dedicated following. Do you like what you're hearing? Consider giving it a caffeinated thumbs up. We'd really appreciate it! Need a little (and sometimes big) push to start and stay focused to grow your side hustle? Dive into my online Masterclass: How To Turn Your Thoughts Into Wanted Things. For the full show notes head on over to the home of Side Hustle Hero. https://www.sidehustlehero.com/119 Connect with Paul: Powwows website Paul Gowder website Connect with Joan: Instagram Facebook About Joan Be on the show! Tell us about your side hustle success story!    

Tune into Paul Gowder's story, as he gives strong insights on the value of staying focused, and serving others on the path towards fulfilling work. Links Below. https://www.paulgowder.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-gowder-5a67473b/

Are you ready to uncover the unexpected? Imagine exploring a podcast episode that dives into indigenous North American culture and the monumental impact of preserving traditions. But what you didn't expect was the unique perspective and insights shared by a guest who's built one of the largest online communities celebrating native American arts and culture. It's a journey that will leave you inspired and longing for more. Want to discover the unexpected insights that will broaden your understanding of indigenous cultures? Keep listening to find out how this conversation will enrich your perspective in ways you never imagined. In this episode, you will be able to: Understand the significance of building online communities for cultural engagement. Discover the benefits of outdoor activities for enhancing mental well-being. Explore the immersive experience of indigenous American culture through powwows. Grasp the impact of government policies on Native American sovereignty. Learn about the importance of preserving indigenous languages and traditions. My special guest is Paul Gowder Paul Gowder, the founder of Powwows.com, is a leading expert in celebrating native American arts and culture. With a background in public administration and a strong passion for community building, Paul has been at the forefront of creating one of the largest and most engaged online communities for over 25 years. His work has been featured in renowned publications such as USA Today and the Smithsonian, showcasing his exceptional photography skills. Through Powwows.com, Paul has successfully brought together a social media following of over 900,000 individuals, reaching over 10 million people. His dedication to preserving indigenous culture and traditions is evident in his impactful work, making him a pivotal figure in the community. The key moments in this episode are: 00:00:02 - Introducing Powwows.com and Betterhelp Sponsorship 00:01:40 - Introduction of Paul Gowder and Powwows.com 00:02:22 - Paul Gowder's Journey and Inspiration for Powwows.com 00:04:27 - Addressing Loneliness and Community Building 00:08:39 - Importance of Understanding Land and History 00:13:04 - The Power of Connection through Technology 00:13:48 - Elevating Native Creators 00:15:25 - Inspiring Future Generations 00:17:01 - Explore Native Travel 00:19:10 - Preserving Traditional Arts 00:25:58 - Career Reflection and Flexibility 00:27:16 - Family Decision-making and Political Work Environment 00:29:29 - Importance of Steadiness and Representation 00:32:48 - Impact of Supreme Court Decisions on Indigenous Peoples 00:38:03 - Education and Historical Reckoning 00:39:59 - The Challenge of Generational Communication 00:41:26 - The Cultural Experience of Powwows 00:42:39 - Universal Themes of Connection 00:43:24 - Understanding Indigenous Peoples 00:48:14 - Call for Audience Participation https://www.linkedin.com/company/aworldofdifference/ https://www.twitter.com/@awodpod https://www.youtube.com/@aworldofdifference https://www.facebook.com/A-World-of-Difference-613933132591673/ https://www.instagram.com/aworldof.difference https://www.patreon.com/aworldofdifference

Are you ready to uncover the unexpected? Imagine exploring a podcast episode that dives into indigenous North American culture and the monumental impact of preserving traditions. But what you didn't expect was the unique perspective and insights shared by a guest who's built one of the largest online communities celebrating native American arts and culture. It's a journey that will leave you inspired and longing for more. Want to discover the unexpected insights that will broaden your understanding of indigenous cultures? Keep listening to find out how this conversation will enrich your perspective in ways you never imagined. In this episode, you will be able to: Understand the significance of building online communities for cultural engagement. Discover the benefits of outdoor activities for enhancing mental well-being. Explore the immersive experience of indigenous American culture through powwows. Grasp the impact of government policies on Native American sovereignty. Learn about the importance of preserving indigenous languages and traditions. My special guest is Paul Gowder Paul Gowder, the founder of Powwows.com, is a leading expert in celebrating native American arts and culture. With a background in public administration and a strong passion for community building, Paul has been at the forefront of creating one of the largest and most engaged online communities for over 25 years. His work has been featured in renowned publications such as USA Today and the Smithsonian, showcasing his exceptional photography skills. Through Powwows.com, Paul has successfully brought together a social media following of over 900,000 individuals, reaching over 10 million people. His dedication to preserving indigenous culture and traditions is evident in his impactful work, making him a pivotal figure in the community. The key moments in this episode are: 00:00:02 - Introducing Powwows.com and Betterhelp Sponsorship 00:01:40 - Introduction of Paul Gowder and Powwows.com 00:02:22 - Paul Gowder's Journey and Inspiration for Powwows.com 00:04:27 - Addressing Loneliness and Community Building 00:08:39 - Importance of Understanding Land and History 00:13:04 - The Power of Connection through Technology 00:13:48 - Elevating Native Creators 00:15:25 - Inspiring Future Generations 00:17:01 - Explore Native Travel 00:19:10 - Preserving Traditional Arts 00:25:58 - Career Reflection and Flexibility 00:27:16 - Family Decision-making and Political Work Environment 00:29:29 - Importance of Steadiness and Representation 00:32:48 - Impact of Supreme Court Decisions on Indigenous Peoples 00:38:03 - Education and Historical Reckoning 00:39:59 - The Challenge of Generational Communication 00:41:26 - The Cultural Experience of Powwows 00:42:39 - Universal Themes of Connection 00:43:24 - Understanding Indigenous Peoples 00:48:14 - Call for Audience Participation https://www.linkedin.com/company/aworldofdifference/ https://www.twitter.com/@awodpod https://www.youtube.com/@aworldofdifference https://www.facebook.com/A-World-of-Difference-613933132591673/ https://www.instagram.com/aworldof.difference https://www.patreon.com/aworldofdifference

It's a modern day reality that large social media platforms deliver political information to many citizens, making these companies' policies for removing and blocking speech critical to politics and culture. Emergencies such as the January 6th attack on the U.S. Capitol and the genocide of the Rohingya people in Myanmar can be traced in part to misinformation and hate speech shared online via large social media platforms. The problem of how social media companies should create policies to govern these spaces makes them uniquely quasi-governmental, a role, still developing today.

If you are ready to level up the fun you have with your family, today's episode is for you! I'm so excited to sit down with Paul Gowder, the visionary behind PowWows.com, a thriving online community dedicated to celebrating Native American arts and cultures. Paul shares his journey from building fun webpages in grad school to creating a vibrant online space where people connect and engage. Key Takeaways: Community Building Secrets: Discover how Paul balances community building with a full-time job and family life. Family Fun Goals: Hear about the delightful and ambitious travel goals Paul and his family set, including their love for Disney trips. Prioritizing Travel and Family Bonds: Tips on how to make travel a priority and create lasting memories while managing life's responsibilities. This conversation with Paul Gowder was a delight, and I hope it inspires you to set exciting goals, prioritize fun, and create lasting memories with your loved ones. Thank you for tuning in! Connect with Paul: www.paulgowder.com/emailtools https://www.powwows.com/craft-tutorial-how-to-make-a-dream-catcher/ Connect With Danielle: Website: PlanGoalPlan Social Media: Follow us on Facebook, and LinkedIn Email: support@plangoalplan.com Be bold, be balanced, and be well, friends.  

Tune in Today's SHOW as our well known successful guest speaker shares amazing insight around this very important topic. You will find ways to connect with our GUEST today on the website mentioned in the video and further continue the conversation.   SUBSCRIBE, REVIEW & SHARE the SHOW! Elona at the Life School helps Entrepreneurs and Organizations grow legacy purpose driven life and businesses for major Impact & Income.   Website: www.elonaloparicoaching.com   Follow our Page on Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100063162853244&mibextid=LQQJ4d Join our Facebook Group Community here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/entrepreneursofthelifeschool   Connect with us on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elona-lopari/   Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/elona_lopari/

In this episode of Healthy Mind, Healthy Life, we delve into the journey of Paul Gauder, founder of Powwows.com, a thriving online community celebrating Native American arts and culture for over 25 years. Paul shares how his venture began as a college project, blossoming into a full-fledged business while he maintained a full-time job. Despite the challenges of balancing work and entrepreneurship, Paul's dedication to family and community remained steadfast. We explore the evolution of Powwows.com, from its early days as a forum-based platform to adapting to the rise of social media. Paul emphasizes the importance of community engagement and shares strategies for cultivating and maintaining a highly engaged audience, including the use of email marketing as a personalized communication tool. Paul's commitment to intentional living shines through as he discusses the role of entrepreneurship in supporting his desired lifestyle, centered around travel and experiences. He offers advice for aspiring entrepreneurs, stressing the importance of setting clear intentions and aligning goals with personal values. Join us as we glean wisdom from Paul's entrepreneurial journey and learn valuable lessons on building a business that not only thrives but also enriches the life you envision. Don't miss out on this enlightening conversation on Healthy Mind, Healthy Life. Subscribe now for more inspiring episodes.

Let me tell you about the fascinating conversation I recently had with Paul Gowder, visionary founder of Powwows.com. For over 25 years, Paul has dedicated himself to building an engaged community that celebrates Native American arts and culture. In this video, Paul shares his wealth of expertise on the essential elements for growing a successful online community. You'll discover his unique perspective on what community really means and why it extends far beyond any one platform. Paul offers extremely valuable advice for entrepreneurs seeking to nurture genuine connections. Learn key takeaways like tailoring your content to your community's needs, the power of email outreach, quick conflict resolution, getting help from engaged members, and more. Crucially, Paul explains why you should focus on developing relationships first rather than chasing vanity metrics. Find people truly aligned with your mission. The numbers will grow organically from there. I loved tapping into Paul's insights on community-building, including mistakes to avoid. Let me know in the comments what resonated most with you!  #CommunityEngagement #ContentCreators #OnlineCommunities #AudienceEngagement #CommunityBuilding #AuthenticConnections #EngagedAudience #MeaningfulConnections #CommunityGrowth #BuildingCommunity https://bit.ly/CFFREGSFSupport the Show.Resources: https://affordablebookkeepingandpayroll.com/resource-opt-in Become a supported of the show: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1522381/support

In this episode, Julie and guest Paul Gowder take a walk around Walt Disney World while discussing the power of email marketing. They explore Paul's journey of harnessing email as a tool for business growth and community building. Paul shares how he pivoted from user-generated content to creating valuable resources and articles. They touch on the importance of persistence, hard work, and the personal connection that email can foster. Read the full transcript on my website at https://julievoris.com/ep21 7 key themes discussed in this episode 1. Patience and Persistence in Pursuing Dreams 2. Morning Routines and Setting the Tone 3. Building and Engaging Email Lists 4. Importance of Small Subscriber Base 5. Purging Non-Engaging Subscribers 6. Niche Marketing and Engagement Metrics 7. Transition from In-Person to Social Media Are you ready to feel calm, confident and energized for your life? Let's GO!! Want more motivation & inspo sent directly to your inbox? Subscribe to my Peptalks! And let's get connected on Instagram @julievoris and @project100.co

Building a community online takes time and a lot of work. There are lots of ways to do it, but Paul Gowder has found success in building up online communities by starting with email marketing instead of a Facebook group or other online community platform. He's here today to share his strategies and wisdom about community building with us, so we can improve our email marketing and build stronger relationships with our audience. This week, episode 137 of Listeners to Leads is about building community through email marketing! Paul Gowder is the owner and founder of PowWows.com, the leading online community celebrating Native American arts and culture for the past 25 years. His emphasis on combining community-building and marketing strategies has allowed him to build one of the largest and most engaged online communities in the world while working full-time. In this episode of Listeners to Leads, Paul Gowder is sharing the importance of starting your community building with email marketing and actionable steps you can take right now to ask your audience to engage with your email content!Paul and I also chat about the following: Paul's journey of creating PowWows.com and its community in the late 90s.Building your email marketing list before building a digital group or community.How Facebook groups and online communities are different now than the forums of the 90s.The importance of building relationships with your audience through personal stories and vulnerabilities.Don't forget to check out Paul's Giveaway Course by clicking the link!Be sure to tune in to all the episodes to receive tons of practical tips on turning your podcast listeners into leads and to hear even more about the points outlined above. Thank you for listening! If you enjoyed this episode, take a screenshot of the episode to post in your stories and tag me! And don't forget to follow, rate and review the podcast and tell me your key takeaways!Learn more about Listeners to Leads at www.listenerstoleads.comCONNECT WITH PAUL GOWDER:WebsiteLinkedInPowWows.comCONNECT WITH ALESIA GALATI:InstagramLinkedInWork with Galati Media! 

In this episode of the cityCURRENT Show, host Andrew Bartolotta is joined by Paul Gowder, the mastermind behind PowWows.com, one of the largest and most engaged online communities dedicated to celebrating Native American arts and culture.For the past 25 years, Paul has crafted a thriving platform, all while working full-time and prioritizing his personal lifestyle goals. Tune in as Paul shares his accidental journey into entrepreneurship, his invaluable insights on community-building, and his expert advice on utilizing email marketing and strategic giveaways to grow your business.Whether you're dreaming of a Disney Cruise or a midday family time, Paul's approach to creating an intentional business will inspire you to craft a lifestyle and a business that align with your passions. Don't miss out on this treasure trove of inspiration, life lessons, and actionable advice!Learn more: www.powwows.com or www.paulgowder.com

Governments and consumers expect internet platform companies to regulate their users to prevent fraud, stop misinformation, and avoid violence. Yet, so far, they've failed to do so. The inability of platforms like Facebook, Google, and Amazon to govern their users has led to stolen elections, refused vaccines, counterfeit N95s in a pandemic, and even genocide. Such failures stem from these companies' inability to manage the complexity of their userbases, products, and their own incentives under the eyes of internal and external constituencies.  In The Networked Leviathan: For Democratic Platforms (Cambridge UP, 2023), Paul Gowder argues that countries should adapt the institutional tools developed in political science for platform governance to democratize major platforms. Democratic institutions allow knowledgeable actors to freely share and apply their understanding of the problems they face while leaders more readily recruit third parties to help manage their decision-making capacity.  This book is also available open access on Cambridge Core. Paul Gowder is Professor of Law and Associate Dean of Research and Intellectual Life at Northwestern University's Pritzker School of Law and a Founding Fellow of the Integrity Institute. He is the author of The Rule of Law in the Real World and The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

Governments and consumers expect internet platform companies to regulate their users to prevent fraud, stop misinformation, and avoid violence. Yet, so far, they've failed to do so. The inability of platforms like Facebook, Google, and Amazon to govern their users has led to stolen elections, refused vaccines, counterfeit N95s in a pandemic, and even genocide. Such failures stem from these companies' inability to manage the complexity of their userbases, products, and their own incentives under the eyes of internal and external constituencies.  In The Networked Leviathan: For Democratic Platforms (Cambridge UP, 2023), Paul Gowder argues that countries should adapt the institutional tools developed in political science for platform governance to democratize major platforms. Democratic institutions allow knowledgeable actors to freely share and apply their understanding of the problems they face while leaders more readily recruit third parties to help manage their decision-making capacity.  This book is also available open access on Cambridge Core. Paul Gowder is Professor of Law and Associate Dean of Research and Intellectual Life at Northwestern University's Pritzker School of Law and a Founding Fellow of the Integrity Institute. He is the author of The Rule of Law in the Real World and The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/political-science

Governments and consumers expect internet platform companies to regulate their users to prevent fraud, stop misinformation, and avoid violence. Yet, so far, they've failed to do so. The inability of platforms like Facebook, Google, and Amazon to govern their users has led to stolen elections, refused vaccines, counterfeit N95s in a pandemic, and even genocide. Such failures stem from these companies' inability to manage the complexity of their userbases, products, and their own incentives under the eyes of internal and external constituencies.  In The Networked Leviathan: For Democratic Platforms (Cambridge UP, 2023), Paul Gowder argues that countries should adapt the institutional tools developed in political science for platform governance to democratize major platforms. Democratic institutions allow knowledgeable actors to freely share and apply their understanding of the problems they face while leaders more readily recruit third parties to help manage their decision-making capacity.  This book is also available open access on Cambridge Core. Paul Gowder is Professor of Law and Associate Dean of Research and Intellectual Life at Northwestern University's Pritzker School of Law and a Founding Fellow of the Integrity Institute. He is the author of The Rule of Law in the Real World and The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/critical-theory

Governments and consumers expect internet platform companies to regulate their users to prevent fraud, stop misinformation, and avoid violence. Yet, so far, they've failed to do so. The inability of platforms like Facebook, Google, and Amazon to govern their users has led to stolen elections, refused vaccines, counterfeit N95s in a pandemic, and even genocide. Such failures stem from these companies' inability to manage the complexity of their userbases, products, and their own incentives under the eyes of internal and external constituencies.  In The Networked Leviathan: For Democratic Platforms (Cambridge UP, 2023), Paul Gowder argues that countries should adapt the institutional tools developed in political science for platform governance to democratize major platforms. Democratic institutions allow knowledgeable actors to freely share and apply their understanding of the problems they face while leaders more readily recruit third parties to help manage their decision-making capacity.  This book is also available open access on Cambridge Core. Paul Gowder is Professor of Law and Associate Dean of Research and Intellectual Life at Northwestern University's Pritzker School of Law and a Founding Fellow of the Integrity Institute. He is the author of The Rule of Law in the Real World and The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/public-policy

Governments and consumers expect internet platform companies to regulate their users to prevent fraud, stop misinformation, and avoid violence. Yet, so far, they've failed to do so. The inability of platforms like Facebook, Google, and Amazon to govern their users has led to stolen elections, refused vaccines, counterfeit N95s in a pandemic, and even genocide. Such failures stem from these companies' inability to manage the complexity of their userbases, products, and their own incentives under the eyes of internal and external constituencies.  In The Networked Leviathan: For Democratic Platforms (Cambridge UP, 2023), Paul Gowder argues that countries should adapt the institutional tools developed in political science for platform governance to democratize major platforms. Democratic institutions allow knowledgeable actors to freely share and apply their understanding of the problems they face while leaders more readily recruit third parties to help manage their decision-making capacity.  This book is also available open access on Cambridge Core. Paul Gowder is Professor of Law and Associate Dean of Research and Intellectual Life at Northwestern University's Pritzker School of Law and a Founding Fellow of the Integrity Institute. He is the author of The Rule of Law in the Real World and The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/politics-and-polemics

Governments and consumers expect internet platform companies to regulate their users to prevent fraud, stop misinformation, and avoid violence. Yet, so far, they've failed to do so. The inability of platforms like Facebook, Google, and Amazon to govern their users has led to stolen elections, refused vaccines, counterfeit N95s in a pandemic, and even genocide. Such failures stem from these companies' inability to manage the complexity of their userbases, products, and their own incentives under the eyes of internal and external constituencies.  In The Networked Leviathan: For Democratic Platforms (Cambridge UP, 2023), Paul Gowder argues that countries should adapt the institutional tools developed in political science for platform governance to democratize major platforms. Democratic institutions allow knowledgeable actors to freely share and apply their understanding of the problems they face while leaders more readily recruit third parties to help manage their decision-making capacity.  This book is also available open access on Cambridge Core. Paul Gowder is Professor of Law and Associate Dean of Research and Intellectual Life at Northwestern University's Pritzker School of Law and a Founding Fellow of the Integrity Institute. He is the author of The Rule of Law in the Real World and The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/communications

Governments and consumers expect internet platform companies to regulate their users to prevent fraud, stop misinformation, and avoid violence. Yet, so far, they've failed to do so. The inability of platforms like Facebook, Google, and Amazon to govern their users has led to stolen elections, refused vaccines, counterfeit N95s in a pandemic, and even genocide. Such failures stem from these companies' inability to manage the complexity of their userbases, products, and their own incentives under the eyes of internal and external constituencies.  In The Networked Leviathan: For Democratic Platforms (Cambridge UP, 2023), Paul Gowder argues that countries should adapt the institutional tools developed in political science for platform governance to democratize major platforms. Democratic institutions allow knowledgeable actors to freely share and apply their understanding of the problems they face while leaders more readily recruit third parties to help manage their decision-making capacity.  This book is also available open access on Cambridge Core. Paul Gowder is Professor of Law and Associate Dean of Research and Intellectual Life at Northwestern University's Pritzker School of Law and a Founding Fellow of the Integrity Institute. He is the author of The Rule of Law in the Real World and The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/science-technology-and-society

Governments and consumers expect internet platform companies to regulate their users to prevent fraud, stop misinformation, and avoid violence. Yet, so far, they've failed to do so. The inability of platforms like Facebook, Google, and Amazon to govern their users has led to stolen elections, refused vaccines, counterfeit N95s in a pandemic, and even genocide. Such failures stem from these companies' inability to manage the complexity of their userbases, products, and their own incentives under the eyes of internal and external constituencies.  In The Networked Leviathan: For Democratic Platforms (Cambridge UP, 2023), Paul Gowder argues that countries should adapt the institutional tools developed in political science for platform governance to democratize major platforms. Democratic institutions allow knowledgeable actors to freely share and apply their understanding of the problems they face while leaders more readily recruit third parties to help manage their decision-making capacity.  This book is also available open access on Cambridge Core. Paul Gowder is Professor of Law and Associate Dean of Research and Intellectual Life at Northwestern University's Pritzker School of Law and a Founding Fellow of the Integrity Institute. He is the author of The Rule of Law in the Real World and The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/law

Governments and consumers expect internet platform companies to regulate their users to prevent fraud, stop misinformation, and avoid violence. Yet, so far, they've failed to do so. The inability of platforms like Facebook, Google, and Amazon to govern their users has led to stolen elections, refused vaccines, counterfeit N95s in a pandemic, and even genocide. Such failures stem from these companies' inability to manage the complexity of their userbases, products, and their own incentives under the eyes of internal and external constituencies.  In The Networked Leviathan: For Democratic Platforms (Cambridge UP, 2023), Paul Gowder argues that countries should adapt the institutional tools developed in political science for platform governance to democratize major platforms. Democratic institutions allow knowledgeable actors to freely share and apply their understanding of the problems they face while leaders more readily recruit third parties to help manage their decision-making capacity.  This book is also available open access on Cambridge Core. Paul Gowder is Professor of Law and Associate Dean of Research and Intellectual Life at Northwestern University's Pritzker School of Law and a Founding Fellow of the Integrity Institute. He is the author of The Rule of Law in the Real World and The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation.

Governments and consumers expect internet platform companies to regulate their users to prevent fraud, stop misinformation, and avoid violence. Yet, so far, they've failed to do so. The inability of platforms like Facebook, Google, and Amazon to govern their users has led to stolen elections, refused vaccines, counterfeit N95s in a pandemic, and even genocide. Such failures stem from these companies' inability to manage the complexity of their userbases, products, and their own incentives under the eyes of internal and external constituencies.  In The Networked Leviathan: For Democratic Platforms (Cambridge UP, 2023), Paul Gowder argues that countries should adapt the institutional tools developed in political science for platform governance to democratize major platforms. Democratic institutions allow knowledgeable actors to freely share and apply their understanding of the problems they face while leaders more readily recruit third parties to help manage their decision-making capacity.  This book is also available open access on Cambridge Core. Paul Gowder is Professor of Law and Associate Dean of Research and Intellectual Life at Northwestern University's Pritzker School of Law and a Founding Fellow of the Integrity Institute. He is the author of The Rule of Law in the Real World and The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/technology

In this episode of Social Media News Live, we dive into the world of email marketing with the seasoned expert, Paul Gowder. Paul, the founder of powwows.com, shares his deep insights on how to craft successful email campaigns and build vibrant online communities. As we navigate through the essential steps of email marketing, Paul reveals strategies to grow and engage your email list, emphasizing the significance of authenticity and community engagement in your communication.Key Points:Strategies for starting and nurturing an effective email marketing campaign.The importance of segmenting and personalizing your email lists for better engagement.Techniques to grow your email list using creative methods like giveaways and compelling content.Tips on avoiding common pitfalls in email marketing and staying compliant with evolving regulations.Insights into future trends in email marketing and adapting to technological advancements.Resources:powwows.com: Visit Paul's website to explore his work and gain more insights into building online communities.PaulGowder.com: Find out more about Paul's consulting services and access resources for enhancing your email marketing strategies.----------------------Ecamm - Your go-to solution for crafting outstanding live shows and podcasts.SocialMediaNewsLive.com - Dive into our website for comprehensive episode breakdowns.Youtube.com - Tune in live, chat with us directly, and be part of the conversation. Or, revisit our archive of past broadcasts to stay updated.Facebook - Stream our show live and chat with us in real time. Connect, engage, and be a part of our community.Email - Subscribe and never miss a live show reminder.----------------------JeffSieh.com - Unlock the power of authentic storytelling with me! With over 20 years of marketing experience, I'm here to elevate your brand's narrative in an ever-competitive market. My expertise spans consulting, visual marketing, and producing podcasts and live videos.Additionally, as a seasoned speaker, I'm not just about sharing knowledge--I believe in entertaining audiences and injecting humor into every presentation. I'm available to enlighten and engage audiences at your events, conferences, or institutions. My talks cover a diverse range of subjects, from purposeful repurposing and captivating storytelling to podcast promotion, social media strategies, visual marketing insights, the art of live video, and much more.

Podcast episode featuring an interview with Paul Gowder, the owner and founder of powwows.com. The host discusses Gowder's success in building a large online community while working full-time and his family's love for Disney. Gowder explains how he balanced his business and personal life, prioritizing travel and cutting back on expenses. He also shares the accidental start of powwows.com and the importance of building an engaging community. Paul emphasizes the significance of giveaways in building a business and engaging with the audience. They discuss their journey as an entrepreneur, retiring from their full-time job, and embracing outsourcing. The text concludes with information about Powwows and their website, offering assistance with giveaways, email marketing, and community building.Learn more listen today! Follow on LinkedIn Paul Gowder and the website Paul Gowder

Ever wondered what it takes to navigate the intense journey of running a successful online community for over two decades? Welcome to the new episode of the Make Your Mark Podcast! In this episode, Kay is joined by the incredible Paul Gowder, founder of PowWows.com, a digital trailblazer shaping online communities for the past 25 year. Paul Gowda shares his invaluable insights, experiences, and strategies, providing a roadmap for entrepreneurs looking to conquer the challenges of building and sustaining online businesses. Here's a breakdown of what to expect in this episode:An Accidental Entrepreneur and Community BuilderEmail Marketing as the CornerstoneEngaging Communities StrategicallyOvercoming Copywriting ChallengesBuilding a Strong FoundationAnd so much more!About Paul Gowder:Paul Gowder is a dynamic professional excelling in diverse roles as a Social Media Marketing Coach, Project Manager, Webmaster, Online Marketer, Photographer, and Disney Expert. As the CEO of PowWows.com, a leading platform for Native American information, he has steered the site's success for over 25 years. Paul's photography has garnered acclaim in notable publications like USAToday, Smithsonian, Indian Country Today, and the Disney World Unofficial Guide. Impressively, he manages a robust social media following of over 900,000, extending his influence to over 10 million people. Beyond his operational roles, Paul is a sought-after Speaker, Coach, Consultant, and Entrepreneur, showcasing his commitment to sharing expertise and guiding others in various professional endeavors.Check Paul Gowder on…Website: https://www.powwows.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-gowder-5a67473b/Connect with Kay Suthar!Website: https://makeyourmarkagency.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kay-suthar-make-your-mark/Go ahead and check out my podcast agency: https://makeyourmarkagency.com/For more info, please feel free to email me at kay@makeyourmarkagency.com

Have you ever wondered how to cultivate a vibrant online community that not only supports your entrepreneurial journey but also enriches your cultural understanding? Well, Paul Gowder, the founder and owner of powwowscom, is here to share his winning strategies. Join us as we explore the exciting nuances of community building and marketing, drawing from Paul's personal experiences and his profound knowledge of Native American arts and culture.Picture this: a flourishing online community, deeply rooted in cultural celebration and exchange. This episode uncovers the beauty and significance of powwows - Native American celebrations that form the core of Paul's online platform. We'll learn how to connect with your community via emails, podcasts, and strategic giveaways that boost your business growth. We also delve into the art of crafting memorable experiences through side hustles, featuring the magical spark of Disney that has touched Paul's family in unique ways.As we journey through Paul's entrepreneurial story, we find a tale of resilience, innovation, and a deep-seated respect for cultural heritage. Paul takes us through his evolution from an "accidental entrepreneur" to the brain behind one of the largest online communities dedicated to Native American culture. We glimpse the lessons learned, the legacy he envisions, and the power of community in fostering both business and cultural growth. Most intriguingly, Paul invites us all to step out of our comfort zones and experience the rich tapestry of Native culture by attending a local powwow. So, are you ready to explore the potential of your own community and perhaps dance to a new beat? Support the showGive the gift of books to your loved ones. Give them a 3-month Audible subscription.Amazon will send your gift recipient an email on the day you choose along with redemption instructions, or allow you to print and give it directly based on the option you select. The gift recipient can start their Audible Premium Plus membership right away. Current Audible members will receive all credits from a redeemed gift membership at once. Their current plan will not be extended or interrupted.https://www.amazon.com/hz/audible/gift-membership-detail

Community is something that is critical when it comes to returning donors. When they feel connected to you they are more likely to come back for more. So how do you build that community? There are many different ways you can create the feel of community – no matter what the size of the organization is. Also – regardless of if you are building a virtual or in person. What you'll learn: → being social on social media. → what we can learn from Swifties. → creating personal connections. → how to engage with different generations. → why community makes it easier to fundraise. Want to skip ahead? Here are key takeaways: [5:30] A Facebook group is a great way to build a virtual community. You'll be able to communicate and share what's going on as well as allow people to connect with each other over their common love for your cause. [6:49] Community doesn't look like any one thing. Looking to Taylor Swift for inspiration, you can see how even at a large scale, you can still build a tight knit community. Each person engages in their own way but once you get them all in the same stadium they all share the same experience. [9:29] Think about your communication as one-on-one, even if it isn't. When writing your communications, pretend you're writing it to one person. That will ensure that it feels special and more personal. [16:36] Different generations engage differently, just like different platforms lend themselves to community differently. It's about meeting people where they are and utilizing the platforms as they're intended. Setting goals for your growth based off how platforms work makes a big difference. [26:13] When you build a real connection they show up when you ask. It makes it easier for you to make that year end ask because they know who you are and the impact you've been creating for the past year. Consistency matters! Resources Digital Marketing Therapy sessions Paul Gowder Owner and Founder, PowWows.com Paul Gowder is the owner and founder of PowWows.com which has been the leading online community celebrating Native American arts and culture for the past 25 years. Paul's techniques and skills have enabled him to build one of the largest and most engaged online communities in the World. Paul helps other entrepreneurs navigate the successes and pitfalls of building an online business through his public speaking and consulting services. Learn more about Paul by visiting PaulGowder.com. Connect with us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-first-click Learn more about The First Click: https://thefirstclick.net Schedule a Digital Marketing Therapy Session: https://thefirstclick.net/officehours 

Recently, I had the opportunity to interview two incredible authors on the Powwows podcast. Kim Rogers and Laurel Goodluck are native writers specializing in children's books that share their tribe's history and stories. It was a fascinating conversation that shed light on their personal journeys as authors and the importance of representation in literature. Kim Rogers, a member of the Wichita and Affiliated Tribes, has written an array of captivating books such as "Just Like Grandma," "Letter from Bob," and "I Am Osage, How Clarence Tinker Became the First Native American General." Her stories aim to provide representation to Native children and share the rich cultural history of her tribe. Laurel Goodluck, an enrolled member of the Madan Hidatsa Erekara Nations of North Dakota and a citizen of a tribe in Alaska, shares modern Native American themes in her picture books. Through stories like "Forever Cousins," Laurel offers a unique and powerful perspective, showcasing cultural experiences in everyday life that resonate with Native children. Join us as Paul Gowder delves deep into their creative processes, inspirations, and the importance of Native representation in children's literature. Kim and Laurel will share insights into their upcoming works and shed light on the thriving community of Native authors. Show Note www.powwows.com/powwowlife94  

One of the problems we come back to again and again on the Tech Policy Press podcast is the problem of how to govern social media platforms. Today's guest is Paul Gowder, Professor of Law and Associate Dean of Research and Intellectual Life at Northwestern University's Pritzker School of Law and a founding fellow of the Integrity Institute. Gowder is the author of The Networked Leviathan: For Democratic Platforms, a book that he says takes an institutional political science approach to the problem of tech platform governance, arguing “that the goals of effective governance capacity development and of global justice” can come together, and that we can build “worldwide direct democratic institutions to exercise public authority over the operations of the big platforms.”

In this episode, Paul Gowder, Associate Dean of Research and Intellectual Life and Professor of Law at Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law, discusses his book The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation which is published by Hart Publishing and available as an open-access download. Gowder begins by discussing open-access publishing and the design on the book. He explains what he means by "the rule of law" and why he sees it as fundamentally tied to the historical project of black liberation. He reflects on how many of our governmental institutions provide only the illusion of the rule of law, and explains how and why the rule of law must be defended and expanded.This episode was hosted by Brian L. Frye, Spears-Gilbert Professor of Law at the University of Kentucky College of Law. Frye is on Twitter at @brianlfrye. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Paul Gowder is the owner and founder of PowWows.com which has been the leading online community celebrating Native American arts and culture for the past 25 years, which is one of the largest and most engaged online communities in the World. As a leader in the online space Paul has become a leading expert in website development, content creation, social media and email marketing. He has also forged a successful path in the emerging mediums of blogging, live video streaming and podcasting. Having visited hundreds of Pows Wows around North America, Paul has been able to capture those events and publish them to millions of viewers on his website and YouTube channel. PowWows.com is the #1 resource for those in the Native American community who want to learn more about Pow Wows and their Native American heritage. Having experienced the trials and tribulations of running a successful online community for the past 25 years, Paul helps other entrepreneurs navigate the successes and pitfalls of building an online business through his public speaking and consulting services. Episode Breakdown: 00:02:27 - Uncover the Secrets to Successful Business: Discover how to align your passion with business success. We'll show you how to not only prioritize what your business offers but also empower others to implement it. And did you know our host has been to Disney a whopping 42 times? Find out what makes this magical place a constant source of inspiration. 00:05:20 - Unleash the Power of Your Online Presence: Dive into the fascinating world of website development where we explore unique and captivating themes such as Star Wars and Cherokee heritage. Learn how crafting a website can go beyond aesthetics and create a thriving community engagement that fosters a strong sense of belonging. 00:10:18 - From Forums to Content Sites: Uncover the secrets of successful transitions as we delve into the evolution from forum-based platforms to content-driven websites. Discover how utilizing email as a powerful community tool can revolutionize your engagement strategies and foster an even stronger connection with your audience. 00:14:37 - Harnessing the Power of Social Platforms: Unlock the full potential of social media platforms, particularly Facebook groups and emails, to cultivate an active and engaged community. Gain insights into effectively utilizing these tools to build a vibrant sense of belonging, foster meaningful engagement, and create a thriving community around your business. 00:19:07 - The Hidden Gem: Building Successful Client Relationships: Discover the untapped power of an email list and how it can serve as a gateway to nurturing strong and prosperous client relationships. Explore the strategies, tips, and tricks to effectively leverage your email list and unlock the full potential of your business. 00:23:23 - Mastering the Art of Effective Email Sequences: Explore the art of crafting impactful email sequences that leave a lasting impression on your audience. From onboarding/welcome sequences that captivate new subscribers to tailored sequences for different business segments, and even a thrilling Throwback Thursday email that drives traffic like never before, we've got you covered. 00:26:38 - Supercharge Your Website with Email Ads: Learn how to promote your website in an innovative and eye-catching way through email advertisements. Discover the power of strategically placed banners and compelling articles that not only capture your audience's attention but also drive traffic and generate meaningful conversions. 00:30:12 - Unlocking the Conversational Power of Email: Unleash the hidden potential of email as a powerful tool for building authentic conversations, fostering a sense of community, and achieving your business goals. Join us as we uncover the secrets to utilizing email as more than just a transactional medium, but a pathway to forging lasting connections with your audience. Links Mentioned: powwows.com paulgowder.com

Jeff welcomes Paul Gowder, the founder of Powwows.com, a platform that brings together tens of thousands of people in Native American communities. The conversation explores how Paul has built a successful niche platform and the importance of creating value and passion in achieving success. The episode also delves into Paul's personal journey and the parallel growth of his marriage and Powwows.com, which both celebrate 26 years. Join us as we shine a light on the significance of Pow Wows as a Native American cultural tradition.

Email Marketing Demystified: Busting the 'Dead' Myth | Paul GowderWalk In VictoryWelcome to the "Walk In Victory Podcast" hosted by NaRon Tillman, where we sit you at the feet of the masters. Today we explore the art of successful email marketing campaigns and debunk the myth that email marketing is dead. In this engaging podcast, we are joined by industry expert Paul Gowder, who shares valuable insights and proven strategies to build and nurture an impactful email list.Discover the power of owning your customer data and creating personalized, conversation-based emails that foster a strong sense of community among your subscribers. Learn how email marketing remains a key component of any thriving business, especially in an era of ever-changing social platform algorithms.Paul takes us on a journey back to the pre-email era, highlighting how businesses once relied on lists for phone numbers, just as some may question the relevance of email today. He dispels these doubts by demonstrating how well-crafted email sequences can provide consistent and effective communication, leading to remarkable returns on investment.Gain expert advice on how to strike the perfect balance between the frequency of email broadcasts and the delivery of valuable content. Uncover the art of using email marketing to engage your audience, nurture relationships, and drive business growth. Whether you are a seasoned marketer or just starting, Paul's practical tips will help you navigate the world of email marketing with confidence.Join us as we delve into the world of email marketing, exploring its significance, metrics, and best practices for building a loyal and responsive community. Embrace the power of email marketing, and embark on a journey towards victory in your business endeavors.Tune in to the "Walk In Victory Podcast" for actionable insights and inspiring conversations that will revolutionize your approach to email marketing and empower your business to thrive.Contact Paul: https://www.paulgowder.com/courses-and-coaching/This show is part of the Spreaker Prime Network, if you are interested in advertising on this podcast, contact us at https://www.spreaker.com/show/4078479/advertisement

In this week's episode, we were thrilled to host Lou Mongello, the man behind the magic of the Disney-themed podcast WDW Radio. Lou generously shared his extensive knowledge and experiences in the world of podcast monetization, focusing particularly on community-building, creating value-driven content, and leveraging sponsorships.During our enlightening conversation, Lou dove deep into his monetization strategies for podcasting. He discussed his preferred methods and tools, highlighting the importance of truly understanding the value of content and leveraging it effectively to generate revenue.Lou shared insights from his journey into podcasting and how he utilized the power of a dedicated community and strategic sponsorships to monetize his WDW Radio podcast. He underscored the significance of authenticity and the creation of meaningful content to resonate with the audience.As the discussion progressed, Lou further detailed the nuances of podcast monetization. He offered practical tips and shared anecdotes from his experiences. Lou also introduced Momentum, his interactive workshop aimed at guiding and inspiring entrepreneurs, enabling them to transform their passion into a profitable venture.Listeners had the opportunity to learn more about Lou's work, both in the realm of Disney fandom and the business coaching sphere. This episode provides an immersive experience of Lou's diverse and engaging content.To connect with Lou Mongello and delve into his Disney-centric content, visit WDW Radio, or for his business coaching and Momentum events, head to loumongello.com.This episode of Social Media News Live was made possible by our sponsor, Ecamm. Discover their innovative live show tools and learn more at www.socialmedianewslive.com/ecamm.Tune into this captivating episode to glean valuable knowledge from Lou Mongello and discover how you can effectively monetize your podcast, build a vibrant community, and create compelling content in your podcasting journey.Resources Mentioned:Ecamm Live: www.socialmedianewslive.com/ecamm WDW Radio: www.wdwradio.comLou Mongello: www.loumongello.com Momentum Workshop: www.loumongello.com/momentum Paul Gowder: www.paulgowder.com Jeff Sieh: www.jeffsieh.com

Have you been struggling to make money from your content? Or are you looking for new ways to earn income from your creative pursuits? Well, you're in luck! In this week's episode of Social Media News Live, hosts Jeff Sieh and Paul Gowder are joined by the amazing Kim Garst to talk all about unlocking creator income strategies. We cover everything from the different ways content creators can make money to the challenges they face in monetizing their content. Plus, we share strategies for building an engaged audience and discuss practical ways to monetize a blog or website using affiliate marketing, sponsored content, and email marketing. But that's not all! We also dive into the importance of diversifying income streams, staying up-to-date on new monetization strategies, and being transparent and authentic with your audience. So, grab a cup of coffee and tune in to this week's episode of Social Media News Live to start unlocking those creator income strategies!

Join me and the incredible Paul Gowder for the newest episode of Social Media News Live, "From Subscribers to Superfans: How to Build Your Email List and Grow Your Community"! We're also thrilled to have special co-host Conor Brown join us for this unforgettable event. We'll be sharing some amazing tips and strategies for growing your community with an email list, creating contests that actually convert, and other killer email marketing tactics. If you want to engage your audience and build a strong online community, this is the perfect opportunity for you to learn from the best. Get ready for some valuable insights, actionable tips, and engaging discussion.

Today's guest, Paul Gowder, is the founder of www.powwows.com Paul started the community in 1996 before the era of social media, so he shares how he has been able to do that with a website and email list (hint: creating a community). You started your business to take control of your life and career, not be controlled by a business that's struggling to grow. You've tried it all. You've started an email list, sent out some newsletters, posted on social media, and attempted to create a community. But when you show up, you can't help but hear *crickets chirping* from the people you want to work with. You probably think you have to work harder. But here's the thing, working more hours is not the solution. Implementing strategies and better allocating your time to things that do work in your business is how you reach your goals and create the lifestyle you want. Connect with Paul: www.paulgowder.com www.powwows.com Connect with Lindsay: https://www.lindsaydollinger.com/links Please leave the show a 5-star rating and review, and share it with your followers! Tag Lindsay and Paul on social media.

Happy November, Away She Goes! November is Native American Heritage Month, a time for us to recognize and celebrate Native American heritage, culture, and history. This week, Carli and Sophia are joined by Paul Gowder of www.powwows.com to discuss what to expect if you visit a powwow and how to support Native Americans this month and throughout the rest of the year. To find a powwow near you, please visit: www.powwows.com/calendar What to expect at your first powwow: www.powwows.com/powwow101 Shop Native Directory: www.powwows.com/shopnative

PowWow Nation is an active and engaged Facebook community of over 97K members where he experiences, teaches, and celebrates Native American Culture. We invited founder and owner, Paul Gowder on this week's Social Media News Live to dive into all the ways that he keeps this online community connected, monetized, and growing!

Join Tacey and her special guest Paul Gowder from PowWows.com as they discuss building a business around a community's needs instead of the other way around.  Timestamp: 00:04: Pauls Story Timestamp: 02:35: Building your business around the community  Timestamp: 13:04: Resources & Being The Topic Authority Timestamp: 23:09: Paul's Speed Round Paul's Contact Information: www.powwows.com www.paulgowder.com https://www.facebook.com/powwowscom and Paul's gift: What to Expect at Your First Pow Wow Free Email Series https://www.powwows.com/most-common-questions-for-first-timers/

The teaching of "Critical Race Theory" has quickly become the new bogeyman talking point of right-wing media outlets. It is being used to restrict the teaching of U.S. history in schools across the country, and is even being used as an excuse to ban books. On this episode Brian & Lornett welcome special guest, author and professor of law at Northwestern University, Dr. Paul Gowder. Dr. Gowder helps us understand the origins of Critical Race Theory as a legal principal, common misconceptions about the term, as well as the civil rights movement's important role in shaping our judicial system.

In The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation (Hart, 2021), Dr. Paul Gowder focuses on examining the ideals of the American rule of law by asking: how do we interpret its history and the goals of its constitutional framers to see the rule of law ambitions its foundational institutions express? The book considers those constitutional institutions as inextricable from the problem of race in the United States and the tensions between the rule of law as a protector of property rights and the rule of law as a restrictor on arbitrary power and a guarantor of legal equality. In that context, it explores the distinctive role of Black liberation movements in developing the American rule of law. Finally, it considers the extent to which the American rule of law is compromised at its frontiers, and the extent that those compromises undermine legal protections Americans enjoy in the interior. It asks how America reflects the legal contradictions of capitalism and empire outside its borders, and the impact of those contradictions on its external goals. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose doctoral work focused on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/law

In The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation (Hart, 2021), Dr. Paul Gowder focuses on examining the ideals of the American rule of law by asking: how do we interpret its history and the goals of its constitutional framers to see the rule of law ambitions its foundational institutions express? The book considers those constitutional institutions as inextricable from the problem of race in the United States and the tensions between the rule of law as a protector of property rights and the rule of law as a restrictor on arbitrary power and a guarantor of legal equality. In that context, it explores the distinctive role of Black liberation movements in developing the American rule of law. Finally, it considers the extent to which the American rule of law is compromised at its frontiers, and the extent that those compromises undermine legal protections Americans enjoy in the interior. It asks how America reflects the legal contradictions of capitalism and empire outside its borders, and the impact of those contradictions on its external goals. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose doctoral work focused on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation (Hart, 2021), Dr. Paul Gowder focuses on examining the ideals of the American rule of law by asking: how do we interpret its history and the goals of its constitutional framers to see the rule of law ambitions its foundational institutions express? The book considers those constitutional institutions as inextricable from the problem of race in the United States and the tensions between the rule of law as a protector of property rights and the rule of law as a restrictor on arbitrary power and a guarantor of legal equality. In that context, it explores the distinctive role of Black liberation movements in developing the American rule of law. Finally, it considers the extent to which the American rule of law is compromised at its frontiers, and the extent that those compromises undermine legal protections Americans enjoy in the interior. It asks how America reflects the legal contradictions of capitalism and empire outside its borders, and the impact of those contradictions on its external goals. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose doctoral work focused on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

In The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation (Hart, 2021), Dr. Paul Gowder focuses on examining the ideals of the American rule of law by asking: how do we interpret its history and the goals of its constitutional framers to see the rule of law ambitions its foundational institutions express? The book considers those constitutional institutions as inextricable from the problem of race in the United States and the tensions between the rule of law as a protector of property rights and the rule of law as a restrictor on arbitrary power and a guarantor of legal equality. In that context, it explores the distinctive role of Black liberation movements in developing the American rule of law. Finally, it considers the extent to which the American rule of law is compromised at its frontiers, and the extent that those compromises undermine legal protections Americans enjoy in the interior. It asks how America reflects the legal contradictions of capitalism and empire outside its borders, and the impact of those contradictions on its external goals. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose doctoral work focused on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/history

In The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation (Hart, 2021), Dr. Paul Gowder focuses on examining the ideals of the American rule of law by asking: how do we interpret its history and the goals of its constitutional framers to see the rule of law ambitions its foundational institutions express? The book considers those constitutional institutions as inextricable from the problem of race in the United States and the tensions between the rule of law as a protector of property rights and the rule of law as a restrictor on arbitrary power and a guarantor of legal equality. In that context, it explores the distinctive role of Black liberation movements in developing the American rule of law. Finally, it considers the extent to which the American rule of law is compromised at its frontiers, and the extent that those compromises undermine legal protections Americans enjoy in the interior. It asks how America reflects the legal contradictions of capitalism and empire outside its borders, and the impact of those contradictions on its external goals. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose doctoral work focused on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/african-american-studies

In The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation (Hart, 2021), Dr. Paul Gowder focuses on examining the ideals of the American rule of law by asking: how do we interpret its history and the goals of its constitutional framers to see the rule of law ambitions its foundational institutions express? The book considers those constitutional institutions as inextricable from the problem of race in the United States and the tensions between the rule of law as a protector of property rights and the rule of law as a restrictor on arbitrary power and a guarantor of legal equality. In that context, it explores the distinctive role of Black liberation movements in developing the American rule of law. Finally, it considers the extent to which the American rule of law is compromised at its frontiers, and the extent that those compromises undermine legal protections Americans enjoy in the interior. It asks how America reflects the legal contradictions of capitalism and empire outside its borders, and the impact of those contradictions on its external goals. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose doctoral work focused on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/american-studies

In The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation (Hart, 2021), Dr. Paul Gowder focuses on examining the ideals of the American rule of law by asking: how do we interpret its history and the goals of its constitutional framers to see the rule of law ambitions its foundational institutions express? The book considers those constitutional institutions as inextricable from the problem of race in the United States and the tensions between the rule of law as a protector of property rights and the rule of law as a restrictor on arbitrary power and a guarantor of legal equality. In that context, it explores the distinctive role of Black liberation movements in developing the American rule of law. Finally, it considers the extent to which the American rule of law is compromised at its frontiers, and the extent that those compromises undermine legal protections Americans enjoy in the interior. It asks how America reflects the legal contradictions of capitalism and empire outside its borders, and the impact of those contradictions on its external goals. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose doctoral work focused on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/political-science

In The Rule of Law in the United States: An Unfinished Project of Black Liberation (Hart, 2021), Dr. Paul Gowder focuses on examining the ideals of the American rule of law by asking: how do we interpret its history and the goals of its constitutional framers to see the rule of law ambitions its foundational institutions express? The book considers those constitutional institutions as inextricable from the problem of race in the United States and the tensions between the rule of law as a protector of property rights and the rule of law as a restrictor on arbitrary power and a guarantor of legal equality. In that context, it explores the distinctive role of Black liberation movements in developing the American rule of law. Finally, it considers the extent to which the American rule of law is compromised at its frontiers, and the extent that those compromises undermine legal protections Americans enjoy in the interior. It asks how America reflects the legal contradictions of capitalism and empire outside its borders, and the impact of those contradictions on its external goals. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose doctoral work focused on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/critical-theory

The problem of the rule of law is inescapable in any society - and even more especially in the context of economic development. Policies that promote prosperity cannot be devoid of considerations for the rights of people who make up the society and the economy, regardless of all technocratic pretensions otherwise. Adam Smith himself stated that economic prosperity thus requires ''a tolerable administration of justice''. Some readers might already start objecting to my treatment of the rule of law as merely an ''instrumental variable'' of a more desirous economic end-state, whereas the more familiar treatment is that of a society governed by the rule of law as an end-state in itself. There are merits to such quibbles, but there is also plenty of evidence in modern history that the rule of law is an essential cog in the wheel of prosperity.WHAT IS ''RULE OF LAW''?''Rule of law'' is the generally accepted description for how well a political system conforms to formal rules - rather than functioning through the whims of the most powerful social or political agents. For a society to be described as one functioning under rule of law - there must be rules and those rules must be equally applied to everyone in the society. Let us call this Letter of the Law. These rules are usually expressed through the constitution of a country and enforced through the courts. But simply having rules and enforcing them does not suffice in the making of the rule of law - and it is an incomplete (however accurate) conception of it. Some rules can be drafted in bad faith or with the express purpose of protecting the interest of the political elites responsible for governance. This is why many scholars have argued that the rule of law can only be said to exist in a state that functions under rules designed to protect the civil liberties (individual rights, freedom of speech, freedom of association, etc.) of the people living within its territory. Let us call this the Character or Spirit of the Law. The character of the law understood as the fulfilment of constitutionally-guaranteed civil liberties is the most common standard by which governance is judged to conform or deviate from the rule of law. For example, countries that routinely violate the rights of citizens in whatever form cannot be said to be governed by the rule of law, even if it has a written constitution. Consideration of the character of the law is the context to understanding the work of my guest on this episode, Paul Gowder.He is a professor of law at NorthWestern university with a broad research interest and expertise. Paul departs from this common derivation of the character of the law as rooted in liberty - and argued that for the rule of law to be broadly applicable in different societies (not dependent on the political institutions and ethical ideals of any specific society) with varying cultures and traditions of governance, it must be rooted in Equality. To understand Paul's argument, I will briefly state two important aspects that set the tone for our conversation - this should not be taken as an exhaustive summary of his work and I encourage you to check out his website and book. The first is that the rule of law as a principle regulates the actions of the state (government), and it is not to be conflated with other rules that regulate the actions of citizens. This is such an important point because one of the most egregious expressions of the law is when a government uses it to oppress citizens. Secondly, Paul outlines three components of the rule of law based on equality as 1) regularity - the government can only use coercion when it is acting in ''good faith'' and under ''reasonable interpretation'' of rules that already exist and are specific to the circumstances. 2) publicity - the law has to be accessible to everyone without barriers (''officials have a responsibility to explain their application of the law, ...failure to do so commits hubris and terror against the public"). 3) generality - the law must be equally applicable to all. Putting all these elements together gives us a rule of law regime where everyone is equal before the law, and the state does not wantonly abuse citizens or single out particular groups for systematic abuse.I enjoyed this conversation very much, and I want to thank Paul for talking to me. Thank you guys too for always listening, and for the other ways you support this project.TRANSCRIPTTobi; I greatly enjoyed your work on the rule of law. I've read your papers, I've read your book, and I like it very much. I think it's a great public service if I can say that because for a lot of time, I am interested in economic development and that is mostly the issue that this podcast talks about. And what you see in that particular conversation is there hasn't really been that much compatibility between the question of the rule of law or the laws that should regulate the actions of the state, and its strategy for economic development. Most of the time, you often see even some justification, I should say, to trample on rights in as much as you get development, you get high-income growth for it. And what I found in your work is, this does not have to be so. So what was your eureka moment in coming up with your concept, we are going to unpack a lot of the details very soon, but what motivated you to write this work or to embark on this project?Paul; Yeah, I think for me, part of the issue that really drives a lot of how I think about the rule of law and you know, reasons behind some of this work is really a difference between the way that those of us who think about human freedom and human equality, right? I think of it as philosophers, right. So they're philosophers and philosophers think about the ability of people to live autonomous lives, to sort of stand tall against their government, to live lives of respect, and freedom and equality. And that's one conversation. And so we see people, like, you know, Ronald Dworkin, thinking about what the rule of law can deliver to human beings in that sense. And then, you know, there's this entire development community, you know, the World Bank, lots of the US foreign policy, all of the rest of those groups of people and groups of ideas, talk about the rule of law a lot and work to measure the rule of law and invest immense amounts of money in promoting what they call the rule of law across the world. But mostly, it seems to be protecting property rights for multinational investment. And I mean, that makes some kind of sense, if you think that what the rule of law is for is economic development, is increasing the GDP of a country and integrating it into favourable international networks of trade. But if you think that it's about human flourishing, then you get a completely different idea of what the rule of law can be, and should be. And so this sort of really striking disjuncture between the two conversations has driven a lot of my work, especially recently, and especially reflecting even on the United States, I think that we can see how domestic rule of law struggles - which we absolutely have, I mean, look at the Trump administration, frankly, as revolving around this conflict between focusing on economics and focusing on human rights and human wellbeing.Tobi; It's interesting the polarization you're talking about. And one way that I also see it play out is [that] analyst or other stakeholders who participate in the process of nation-building in Africa, in Nigeria… a lot of us that care about development and would like to see our countries grow and develop and become rich, are often at opposite ends with other people in the civil society who are advocating for human rights, who are advocating for gender equality, who are advocating for so many other social justice issues. And it always seems like there's no meeting ground, you know, between those set of views, and I believe it does not have to be so. So one thing I'm going to draw you into quite early is one of the distinctions you made in so many of your papers and even your book is the difference between the conception of the rule of law that you are proposing versus the generally accepted notion of the rule of law based on individual liberty in the classical liberal tradition. I also think that's part of the problem, because talking about individual liberty comes with this heavy ideological connotation, and giving so many things that have happened in Africa with colonialism and so many other things, nobody wants any of that, you know. So you are proposing a conception of the rule of law that is based on equality. Tell me, how does that contrast with this popularly accepted notion of the rule of law [which is] based on individual liberty?Paul; So I think the way to think about it is to start with the notion of the long term stability of a rule of law system. And so here is one thing that I propose as a fact about legal orders. Ultimately, any kind of stable legal order that can control the powerful, that is, that can say to a top-level political leader, or a powerful multinational corporation, or whomever, no, you can't do this, this violates the law and make that statement stick depends on widespread collective mobilization, if only as a threat, right. And so it's kind of an analytic proposition about the nature of power, right? If you've got a top-level political leader who's in command of an army, and they want to do something illegal, it's going to require very broad-based opposition, and hence very broad-based commitment to the idea of leaders that follow the law in order to prevent the person in charge of an army from just casually violating it whenever they want. Okay, accept that as true, what follows from that? Well, what follows from that is that the legal system has to actually be compatible with the basic interests of all. And what that tends to mean and I think this is true, both historically, and theoretically, is leaving aside the philosophical conceptual difference between liberty and equality, which I'm not sure is really all that important. Like I think, ultimately, liberty and equality as moral ideas tend to blur together when you really unpack them. But practically speaking, any stable legal order that can control the powerful has to be compatible with the interests of a broad-based group of the human beings who participate in that legal order. And what that entails is favouring a way of thinking about the rule of law that focuses on being able to recruit the interests of even the worst off. In other words, one that's focused on equality, one that's focused on protecting the interests of the less powerful rather than a laissez-faire libertarian conception of the rule of law that tends to be historically speaking, compatible with substantial amounts of economic inequality, hyper-focus on ideas - like property rights, that support the long-standing interests of those who happen to be at the top of the economy, often against the interests of those that happened to be at the bottom of the economy, right. That's simply not a legal order that is sustainable in the long run. Lately, I've been thinking a lot about the way that this has played out in [the] United States history, in particular. I might have a book that's coming out in December that focuses on a historical account of the development of the rule of law, particularly in the United States. I mean, it's my own country. And so at some point, I had to get talked into writing that book. And we can see that in our history right at the get-go, you know, in the United States, at the very beginning, the rule of law dialogue tended to be focused on protecting the interests of wealthy elite property holders. And this actually played a major part, for example, in the United States' most grievous struggle, namely the struggle over slavery, because slaveholders really relied on this conception of the Rule of Law focusing on individual freedom and property rights to insist on a right to keep holding slaves against the more egalitarian idea that “hey, wait a minute, the enslaved have a right to be participants in the legal system as well.” And so we can see these two different conceptions of legality breaking the United States and breaking the idea of legal order in the United States right at the get-go. And we see this in country after country after country. You know, another example is Pinochet's Chile, which was the victim of [the] United States' economics focused rule of law promotion efforts that favoured the interests of property holders under this libertarian conception over the interests of ordinary citizens, democracy and mass interests. In other words, over the egalitarian conception, and again, you know, devolved into authoritarianism and chaos.Tobi; Yeah, nice bit of history there, but dialling all the way, if you'll indulge me... dialling all the way to the present, or maybe the recent past, of course; where I see another relevance and tension is development, and its geopolitical significance and the modernization projects that a lot of developed countries have done in so many poor and violent nations, you know, around the world. I mean, at the time when Africa decolonized, you know, a lot of the countries gravitated towards the communist bloc, socialism [and] that process was shunted, failed, you know, there was a wave of military coups all over the continent, and it was a really dark period.But what you see is that a lot of these countries, Nigeria, for example, democratized in 1999, a lot of other countries either before then or after followed suit. And what you see is, almost all of them go for American-style federal system, and American-style constitutional democracy, you know. And how that tradition evolved... I mean, there's a lot you can explain and unpack here... how that tradition evolved, we are told is the law has a responsibility to treat people as individuals. But you also find that these are societies where group identities are very, very strong, you know, and what you get are constitutions that are weakly enforced, impractical, and a society that is perpetually in struggle. I mean, you have a constitution, you have rules, and you have a government that openly disregards them, because the constitutional tradition is so divorced from how a lot of our societies evolve. And what I see you doing in your work is that if we divorce the rule of law from the ideal society, you know [like] some societies that we look up to, then we can come up with a set of practical propositions that the rule of law should fulfil, so walk me through how you resolve these tensions and your propositions?Paul; Well, so it's exactly what you just said, right? I mean, we have to focus on actual existing societies and the actual way that people organize their lives, right. And so here's the issue is, just like I said a minute ago, the rule of law fundamentally depends on people. And when I say people, I don't just mean elites. I don't just mean the wealthy, I don't just mean the people in charge of armies, and the people in charge of courthouses, right? Like the rule of law depends, number one, on people acting collectively to hold the powerful to the law. And number two, on people using the institutions that we say are associated with the rule of law. And so just as you describe, one sort of really common failure condition for international rule of law development efforts - and I don't think that this is a matter of sort of recipient countries admiring countries like the US, I think this is a matter of international organizations and countries like the US having in their heads a model of what the law looks like and sort of pressing it on recipient countries.But you know, when you build institutions that don't really resemble how the people in a country actually organize their social, political and legal lives, you shouldn't be surprised when nobody uses them. You shouldn't be surprised when they're ineffective. But I mean, I think that it's been fairly compared to a kind of second-generation colonialism in that sense where countries like the US and like Germany, attempt to export their legal institutions to other countries, without attending to the ways that the people in those countries already have social and legal resources to run their lives. And so I'll give you an example that's interesting from Afghanistan. So in Afghanistan, sort of post the 2000s invasion, and so forth, some researchers, mostly affiliated with the Carnegie Institution, found that the really effective rule of law innovations, the really effective interventions were ones that relied on existing social groups and existing structures of traditional authority. And so, you know, you could build a courthouse and like, ask a formal centralized state to do something, maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't, maybe people would use it, maybe they wouldn't. But if you took local community leaders, local religious leaders, gave them training, and how to use the social capital they already have to help do things like adjudicate disputes, well, those would actually be effective, because they fit into the existing social organization that already exists. So I'll give you another example. I have a student who... I had… I just graduated an S.J.D student from Uganda who wrote a dissertation on corruption in Uganda. And one of the things that he advocated for I think, really sensibly was, “ okay, we've got this centralized government, but we've also got all of these traditional kingdoms, and the traditional kingdoms, they're actually a lot more legitimate in the sociological sense than the centralized government.People trust the traditional kingdoms, people rely on the traditional kingdoms for services, for integrating themselves into their society. And so one useful way of thinking about anti-corruption reforms is to try and empower the traditional kingdoms that already have legitimacy so that they can check the centralized government. And so that kind of work, I think, is where we have real potential to do global rule of law development without just creating carbon copies of the United States. Tobi; The process you describe, I will say, as promising as it may sound, what I want to ask you is how then do you ensure that a lot of these traditional institutions that can be empowered to provide reasonable checks to the power of the central government also fulfil the conditions of equality in their relation to the general public? Because even historically, a lot of these institutions are quite hierarchical...Paul; Oh, yeah... and I think in particular, women's rights are a big problem.Tobi; Yeah, yeah and there's a lot of abuses that go on locally, even within those communities, you know. We have traditional monarchies who exercise blanket rights over land ownership, over people's wives, over so many things, you know, so how then does this condition of equality transmit across the system?Paul; Yeah, no, I think that's the really hard question. I tell you right now that part of the answer is that those are not end-state processes. By this I mean that any realistic conception of how we can actually build effective rule of law institutions, but also genuinely incorporate everyone's interests in a society is going to accept that there's going to be a kind of dynamic tension between institutions.You know, sometimes we're going to have to use the centralized state to check traditional institutions. Sometimes we're going to have to use traditional institutions to check the centralized state. Elinor Ostrom, Nobel Prize-winning political scientist and her sort of the Bloomington School of Political Economy, emphasized for many years this idea that they called Polycentrism. That is the idea that multiple, overlapping governance organizations that are sort of forced to negotiate with one another, and forced to learn from one another, and really integrate with one another in this sort of complex tension-filled kind of way, actually turns out to be a really effective method of achieving what we might call good governance. And part of the reason is because they give a lot of different people, in different levels of [the] organization, ways to challenge one another, ways to demand inclusion in this decision, and let somebody else handle that decision, and participate jointly in this other decision. And so I think that neither the centralized state alone, nor traditional institutions alone is going to be able to achieve these goals. But I think efforts to integrate them have some promise. And India has done a lot of work, you know, sort of mixed record of success, perhaps, but has done a lot of work in these lines. I think, for example, of many of the ways that India has tried to promote the growth of Panchayats, of local councils in decision making, including in law enforcement, but at the same time, has tried to do things like promote an even mandate, the inclusion of women, the inclusion of Scheduled Castes, you know, the inclusion of the traditionally subordinated in these decision making processes. And as I said, they haven't had complete success. But it's an example of a way that the centralized state can both support traditional institutions while pushing those institutions to be more egalitarian.Tobi; Let's delve into the three conditions that you identified in your work, which any rule of law state should fulfil. And that is regularity, publicity, and generality. Kindly unpack those three for me.Paul; Absolutely. So regularity is...we can think of it as just the basic rule of law idea, right? Like the government obeys the law. And so if you think about this notion of regularity, it's... do we have a situation where the powerful are actually bound by legal rules? Or do we have a situation where, you know, they just do whatever they want? And so I'd say that, you know, there's no state that even counts as a rule of law state in the basic level without satisfying that condition, at least to some reasonable degree. The idea of publicity really draws on a lot of what I've already been saying about the recruitment of broad participation in the law. That is, when I say publicity, what I mean is that in addition to just officials being bound by the law, ordinary people have to be able to make use of the law in at least two senses. One, they have to be able to make use of the law to defend themselves. I call this the individualistic side of publicity, right? Like if some police officer wants to lock you up, the decision on whether or not you violated the law has to respond to your advocacy, and your ability to defend yourself in some sense. And then there's also the collective side of this idea of publicity, which is that the community as a whole has to be able to collectively enforce the boundaries of the legal system. And you know, we'd talk a lot more about that, I think that's really the most important idea. And then the third idea of generality is really the heart of the egalitarian idea that we've been talking about, which is that the law has to actually treat people as equals. And one thing that I think is really important about the way that I think about these three principles is that they're actually really tightly integrated. By tightly integrated, I mean you're only going to get in real-world states, regularity (that is, officials bound by the law) if you have publicity (that is, if you have people who aren't officials who actually can participate in the legal system and can hold officials to the law). We need the people to hold the officials in line. You're only going to get publicity if you have generality. That is, the people are only going to be motivated to use the legal system and to defend the legal system if the legal system actually treats them as equals. And so you really need publicity to have stable regularity, you really need generality to have stable publicity.Tobi; Speaking of regularity, when you say what constrains the coercive power of the state is when it is authorised by good faith and reasonable interpretation of pre-existing reasonably specific rules. That sounds very specific. And it's also Scalonian in a way, but a lot of people might quibble a bit about what is reasonable, you know, it sounds vague, right? So how would you condition or define reasonable in this sense, and I know you talked about hubris when you were talking about publicity. But is there a minimum level of responsibility for reasonability on the part of the citizen in relation to a state?Paul; That's, in a lot of ways, the really hard philosophical question, because one of the things that we know about law is that it is inherently filled with disagreement, right? Like our experience of the legal system and of every state that actually has something like the rule of law is that people radically disagree about the legal propriety of actions of the government. And so in some sense, this idea of reasonableness is kind of a cop-out. But it's a cop-out that is absolutely necessary, because there's no, you know, what [Thomas] Nagel called a view from nowhere. There's no view from nowhere from which we can evaluate whether or not on a day to day basis, officials are actually complying with the law in some kind of correct sense. But again, I think, you know, as you said, to some extent, that implies that some of the responsibility for evaluating this reasonableness criterion falls down to day to day politics, falls down to the judgment of ordinary citizens. Like, my conception of the rule of law is kind of sneakily a deeply democratic conception, because it recognizes given the existence of uncertainty as to what the law actually requires of officials both on a case by case basis. And, broadly speaking, the only way that we're ever going to be able to say, Well, you know, officials are more or less operating within a reasonable conception of what their legal responsibilities are, is if we empower the public at large to make these judgments. If we have institutions like here in the US, our jury trials, if we have an underlying backstop of civil society and politics, that is actively scrutinizing and questioning official action.Tobi; So speaking of publicity, which is my favorite...I have to say...Paul; Mine too. You could probably tell. Tobi; Because I think that therein lies the power of the state to get away with abusive use of its legitimacy, or its power, so to speak. When you say that officials have a responsibility to explain their application of the law, and a failure to do so commits hubris and terror against the public. So those two situations - hubris and terror, can you explain those to me a bit?Paul; Yeah. So these are really, sort of, moral philosophy ideas at heart, particularly hubris. The idea is there's a big difference, even if I have authority over you, between my exercising that authority in the form of commands and my exercising that authority in the form of a conversation that appeals to your reasoning capacity, right. So these days, I'm thinking about it in part with reference to... I'm going to go very philosophical with you here... but in reference to Kant's humanity formulation of the categorical imperative, sorry. But that is a sense in which if I'm making decisions about your conduct, and your life and, you know, affecting your fundamental interests, that when I express the reasons to you for those decisions, and when I genuinely listen to the reasons that you offer, and genuinely take those into account in my decision making process, I'm showing a kind of respect for you, which is consistent with the idea of a society of equals.As opposed to just hi, I'm wiser than you, and so my decision is, you know, you go this way, you violated the law, right? Are we a military commander? Or are we a judge? Both the military commander and the judge exercise authority, but they do so in very different ways. One is hierarchical, the other I would contend is not.Tobi; Still talking about publicity here, and why I love it so much is one important, should I say… a distinction you made quite early in your book is that the rule of law regulates the action of the state, in relation to its citizens.Paul; Yes.Tobi; Often and I would count myself among people who have been confused by that point as saying that the rule of law regulates the action of the society in general. I have never thought to make that distinction. And it's important because often you see that maybe when dealing with civil disobedience, or some kind of action that the government finds disruptive to its interests, or its preferences, the rule of law is often invoked as a way for governments to use sometimes without discretion, its enforcement powers, you know.So please explain further this distinction between the rule of law regulating the state-citizen relation versus the general law and order in the society. I mean, you get this from Trump, you get this from so many other people who say, Oh, we are a law and order society, I'm a rule of law candidate.Paul; Oh, yeah.Tobi; You cannot do this, you cannot do that. We cannot encourage the breakdown of law and order in the society. So, explain this difference to me.Paul; Absolutely, then this is probably the most controversial part of my account of the rule of law. I think everybody disagrees with this. I sort of want to start by talking about how I got to this view. And I think I really got to this view by reflecting on the civil rights movement in the United States in particular, right. Because, you know, what we would so often see, just as you say about all of these other contexts, is we would see officials, we would see judges - I mean, there are, you know, Supreme Court cases where supreme court justices that are normally relatively liberal and sympathetic, like, you know, Justice Hugo Black scolding Martin Luther King for engaging in civil disobedience on the idea that it threatens the rule of law. It turns out, and this is something that I go into in the book that's coming out in December... it turns out that King actually had a sophisticated theory of when it was appropriate to engage in civil disobedience and when it wasn't. But for me, reflecting on that conflict in particular, and reflecting on the fact that the same people who were scolding peaceful lunch-counter-sit-ins for threatening the rule of law and, you know, causing society to descend into chaos and undermining property rights and all the rest of that nonsense, were also standing by and watching as southern governors sent police in to beat and gas and fire hose and set dogs on peaceful protests in this sort of completely new set of like, totally unbounded explosions of state violence. And so it seems to me sort of intuitively, like these can't be the same problem, right, like ordinary citizens, doing sit-ins, even if they're illegal, even if we might have some reason to criticize them, it can't be the same reason that we have to criticize Bull Connor for having the cops beat people. And part of the reason that that's the case, and this is what I call the Hobbesian property in the introduction to the rule of law in the real world...part of the reason is just the reality of what states are, right? Like, protesters don't have tanks and police dogs, and fire hoses, right? Protesters typically don't have armies. If they do, then we're in a civil war situation, not a rule of law situation, the state does have all of those things. And so one of the features of the state that makes it the most appropriate site for this talk about the rule of law is this the state has, I mean, most modern states have, at least on a case by case basis, overwhelming power. And so we have distinct moral reasons to control overwhelming power than we do to control a little bit of legal disobedience, right, like overwhelming power is overwhelming. It's something that has a different moral importance for its control. Then the second idea is at the same time what I call the [...] property... is the state makes claims about its use of power, right? Like ordinary people, when they obey the law or violate the law, they don't necessarily do so with reference to a set of ideas that they're propagating about their relationship to other people. Whereas when modern states send troops in to beat people up, in a way what they're doing is they're saying that they're doing so in all of our names, right, particularly, but not exclusively in democratic governments. There's a way in which the state represents itself as acting on behalf of the political community at large. And so it makes sense to have a distinctive normative principle to regulate that kind of power.Tobi; I know you sort of sidestepped this in the book, and maybe it doesn't really fit with your overall argument. But I'm going to push you on that topic a bit. So how does the rule of law state as a matter of institutional design then handles... I know you said that there are separate principles that can be developed for guiding citizen actions, you know...Paul; Yes. Tobi; I mean, let's be clear that you are not saying that people are free to act however they want.Paul; I'm not advocating anarchy.Tobi; Exactly. So how does the rule of law state then handle citizens disagreements or conflicting interests around issues of social order? And I'll give you an example. I mentioned right at the beginning of our conversation what happened in Nigeria in October 2020. There's a unit of the police force that was created to handle violent crimes. Needless to say that they went way beyond their remit and became a very notoriously abusive unit of the police force. Picking up people randomly, lock them up, extort them for money. And there was a situation where a young man was murdered, and his car stolen by this same unit of the police force and young people all over the country, from Lagos to Port Harcourt to Abuja, everywhere, felt we've had enough, right, and everybody came out in protest. It was very, very peaceful, I'd say, until other interests, you know, infiltrated that action. Paul; Right. Tobi; But what I noticed quite early in that process was that even within the spirits of that protests, there were disagreements between citizens - protesters blocking roads, you know, versus people who feel well, your protest should not stop me from going to work, you know, and so many other actions by the protesters that other people with, maybe not conflicting interests, but who have other opinions about strategy or process feel well, this is not right. This is not how to do this. This is not how you do this, you know, and I see that that sort of provided the loophole, I should say, for the government to then move in and take a ruthlessly violent action. You know, there was a popular tollgate in Lagos in the richest neighbourhood in Lagos that was blocked for 10 days by the protesters. And I mean, after this, the army basically moved in and shot people to death. Today, you still see people who would say, Oh, well, that's tragic. But should these people have been blocking other people from going about their daily business? So how does the rule of law regulate issues of social order vis-a-vis conflict of interest?Paul; So I think this is actually a point in favour of my stark distinction between state action and social action as appropriate for thinking about the rule of law. Because when you say that the state used...what I still fundamentally think of as like minor civil disobedience...so, like blocking some roads, big deal! Protesters block roads all the time, right, like protesters have blocked roads throughout human history, you know, like, sometimes it goes big, right? Like they love blocking roads in the French Revolution. But oftentimes, it's just blocking... so I blocked roads.I participated in, you know, some protests in the early 2000s. I participated in blocking roads in DC, right, like, fundamentally "big deal!" is the answer that the state ought to give. And so by saying to each other and to the government, when we talk about the rule of law, we mean, the state's power has to be controlled by the law, I think that gives us a language to say... even though people are engaging in illegal things, the state still has to follow legal process in dealing with it, right.The state still has to use only the level of force allowed by the law to arrest people. The state can't just send in the army to shoot people. And the principle that we appeal to is this principle of the rule of law. Yeah, maintaining the distinction between lawbreaking by ordinary people and law-breaking by the state helps us understand why the state shouldn't be allowed to just send in troops whenever people engage in a little bit of minor lawbreaking and protests.Tobi; So how does the law... I mean, we are entering a bit of a different territory, how does the law in your conception handles what... well, maybe these are fancy definitions, but what some people will call extraordinary circumstances. Like protests with political interests? Maybe protesters that are funded and motivated to unseat an incumbent government? Or in terrorism, you know, where you often have situations where there are no laws on paper to deal with these sort of extraordinary situations, you know, and they can be extremely violent, they can be extremely strange, they're usually things that so many societies are not equipped to handle. So how should the rule of law regulate the action of the state in such extraordinary circumstances?Paul; Yeah, so this is the deep problem of the rule of law, you know, this is why people still read Carl Schmitt, right, because Carl Schmitt's whole account of executive power basically is, hey, wait a minute emergencies happen, and when emergencies happen, liberal legal ideas like the rule of law dropout, and so fundamentally, you just have like raw sovereignty. And that means that the state just kind of does what it must. Right. So here's what I feel about Schmitt. One is, maybe sometimes that's true, right? And again, I think about the US context, because I'm an American and you know, I have my own history, right? And so in the US context, I think, again, about, Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War, right.Like Abraham Lincoln broke all kinds of laws in the Civil War. Like today, we'd call some of the things that he did basically assuming dictatorial power in some respects. I mean, he did that in the greatest emergency that the country had ever faced and has ever faced since then. And he did it in a civil war. And sometimes that happens, and I think practically speaking, legal institutions have a habit of not standing in the way in truly dire situations like that. But, and here's why I want to push back against Carl Schmitt... but what a legal order can then do is after the emergency has passed...number one, the legal order can be a source of pressure for demanding and accounting of when the emergency has passed, right. And so again, I think of the United States War on Terror, you know, we still have people in United States' custody imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay.September 11 2001, was almost 20 years ago. It's actually 20 years ago and a month, and we still have people locked up in Guantanamo Bay. That's insane. That's completely unjustifiable. And one of the jobs of the legal system is to pressure the executive to say, okay, buddy, is the emergency over yet? No, really, we think that the emergency is over yet. I want reasons, right, publicity again, I want an explanation from you of why you think the emergency is still ongoing. And the legal system can force the executive to be accountable for the claim that the emergency is still ongoing. That's number one. Number two is that law tends to be really good at retroactively, sort of, retrofitting things into legal order, right. And so again, I think about the Civil War. You know, after the US Civil War, lots of civil wars, sorry. American-centric person trying to fight against it. But after the US Civil War, you know, the courts took a pause. And then we have a lot of cases where they took a lot of the things that Lincoln did, they said, okay, some of them at least were illegal, some of them were legal, but only under very specific circumstances. And so they actually built legal doctrine that took into account the emergency that Lincoln faced, and then later wars, such as in the Second World War, the courts took the lessons from the experience in the American Civil War, and used that to impose more constraints. So to bring it about that the emergency actions that Franklin Roosevelt took in the Second World War weren't completely sui generis, sort of like right acts of sovereignty, but were regulated by legal rules created during the Civil War, and after the Civil War. And again, they weren't perfect, right? You know, during the Second World War, the United States interned Japanese Americans, you know, again, sort of completely lawless, completely unjustifiable, but you know, it's an ongoing process. The point is that the legal system is always... the law is always reactive in emergencies. But the reactive character of the law can nonetheless be used as a way to control and channel sovereign power, even in these sort of Schmittian emergency situations.Tobi; So two related questions, your work is interdisciplinary, because you try to blend a lot of social science into legal philosophy. But speaking of legal order and your primary profession, I mean.. for the sake of the audience parties into a lot of other cool stuff, I'm going to be putting up his website in the show notes. But speaking of legal order, and the legal profession, why is so much of the legal profession fascinated with what I would say the rule by law, as opposed to the rule of law. A lot of what you get from lawyers, even some law professors in some situations is [that] the law is the law, and you have to obey it. And even if you are going to question it, however unjustified it may seem, you still have to follow some processes that maybe for ordinary citizens are not so accessible or extremely costly, you know, which I think violate regularity, right, the way you talk about it retrospective legislation, and so many other things. So why is the legal profession so fascinated with the law, as opposed to justification for the law?Paul; Yeah, I think that question kind of answers itself, right. It's unfortunate... I mean, it's sort of natural but it's unfortunate that the people who most influence our dialogue about the way that we, you know, live in [the] society together with a state, namely by organizing ourselves with law happen to be people who are the specialists who find it easiest, right? And so I think the simple answer is right on this one, at least in countries like the United States, I'm not sure how true this is in other countries. But in the United States, the domination of legal discourse by lawyers necessarily means that the sort of real practical, real-world ways in which ordinary people find interacting with anything legal to be difficult, oppressive, or both just aren't in view, right? This is hard for them to understand.But I think in the US, one of the distortions that we've had is that we have an extremely hierarchical legal profession, right. So we have very elite law schools, and those very elite law schools - one of which I teach at - tend to predominantly produce lawyers who primarily work for wealthy corporations and sort of secondarily work for the government. Those lawyers tend to be the ones that end up at the top of the judiciary, that end up in influential positions in academia, that end up, you know, in Congress. The lawyers that, you know, see poor people, see people of subordinated minority groups and see the very different kinds of interactions with the legal system that people who are worse off have, that see the way that the law presents itself, not as a thing that you can use autonomously to structure your own life. But as a kind of external imposition, that sort of shows up and occasionally inflicts harm on you. Those lawyers aren't the ones who end up in our corridors of power. And it's very unfortunate, it's a consequence of the hierarchical nature of, at least in the US, our legal profession. And I suspect it's similar in these other countries as well.Tobi; In your opinion, what's the... dare I say the sacrosanct and objective - those are rigid conditions sorry - expression of the rule of law? The current general conception of the rule accedes to the primacy of the Constitution, right. I've often found that problematic because in some countries you find constitutional provisions that are egregious, and in other cases, you find lawyers going into court to challenge certain actions that they deem unjust, or that are truly unjust on the basis of the same constitution. Right. So what do you think is the most practical expression of the rule of law? Is it written laws? Is it the opinion of the judges? Is it how officials hold themselves accountable? What's the answer?Paul; So I think I'm gonna like sort of twist this a little bit and interpret that question is like, how do you know the extent to which the rule of law exists in a particular place? And my answer is, can ordinary people look officials in the eye, right, you know... if you're walking down the street, and you see a police officer, you know, are you afraid? Or can you walk past them and confidently know you're doing nothing wrong so there's nothing really effectively but they can do to you, right? If you're called in to deal with some kind of bureaucratic problem, like the tax office, can you trust that you exist in a relationship of respect? You know, can you trust that when you show them, actually here are my receipts, I really did have that expense, that that's going to be taken seriously? You know, if people, everybody, feels like they can stand tall, and look government officials in the eye, then to that extent, I think that the rule of law exists in a society.Tobi; Final question, what's the coolest idea you're working on right now?Paul; Oh, gosh. So like I said, I've got two books under contract right now. The first book is a history/theoretical constitutional law account of the development and existing state of the rule of law in the United States. The second book, which I'm more excited about, because it's the one that I plan to write this year, but it's also a lot harder, is I'm trying to take some of the governance design ideas that we see from the notion of rule of law development, and others such as governance development things and apply them to Private Internet platforms, right? Like, basically to Facebook. Um, I was actually involved in some of the work, not at a super high level, but I was involved in some of the work in designing or doing the research for designing Facebook's oversight board. And I'm kind of trying to expand on some of those ideas and think about, you know, if we really believe that private companies, especially in these internet platforms are doing governance right now, can we take lessons from how the rest of the world and how actual governments and actual states have developed techniques of governing behaviour in highly networked, large scale super-diverse environments and use those lessons in the private context? Maybe we can maybe we can't I'm not sure yet. Hopefully, by the time I finish the book, I'll know.Tobi; That's interesting. And I'll ask you this, a similar, I'll say a related situation is currently happening in Nigeria right now, where the President's Twitter handle or username, tweeted something that sounded like a thinly veiled threat to a particular ethnic group. And lots of people who disagreed with that tweet reported the tweet, and Twitter ended up deleting the tweet in question, which high-level officials in Nigeria found extremely offensive, and going as far as to assert their sovereign rights over Twitter and say, well, it may be your platform, but it is our country and we are banning you. How would you adjudicate such a situation? I mean, there's the question of banning Donald Trump from the platform and so many other things that have come up.Paul; Yeah, I mean, it's hard, right? So there are no easy answers to these kinds of problems. I think, ultimately, what we have to do is we have to build more legitimate ways to make these decisions. I mean, here are two things that we cannot do, right?Number one is we can't just let government officials, especially when, you know, as with the Donald Trump example, and so many others, the government officials are the ones who are engaging in the terrible conduct make these decisions. Number two is we also just can't let a bunch of people sitting in the Bay Area in California make those decisions. Like, ultimately, this is on, you know, property in some abstracted sense of like the shareholders of these companies. But we cannot simply allow a bunch of people in San Francisco, in Menlo Park, and you know, Cupertino and Mountain View, and all of those other little tech industry cities that have no understanding of local context to make the final decisions here. And so what we need to do is we need to build more robust institutions to include both global and local and affected countries, grassroots participation, in making these decisions. And I'm trying to sort of sketch out what the design for those might look like. But, you know, talk to me in about a year. And hopefully, I'll have a book for you that will actually have a sketch.Tobi; You bet I'm going to hold you to that. So, a year from now. So still on the question of ideas, because the show is about ideas. What's the one idea you'd like to see spread everywhere?Paul; Oh, gosh, you should have warned me in advance... that... I'm going to go back to what I said at the very beginning about the rule of law. Like I think that the rule of law depends on people, right? Like there is no such thing as the rule of law without a society and a legal system that genuinely is equal and advantageous to ordinary people enough to be the kind of thing that people actually support. Like ordinary people... if you cannot recruit the support of ordinary people for your legal political and social system, you cannot have the rule of law. That's true whether you're a developing country, that's true whether you're the United States, right. Like I think, you know, part of the reason that we got Donald Trump in the United States, I think, is because our legal system and with it our economy, and all the rest are so unequal in this country, that ordinary voters in the United States didn't see any reason to preserve it. Right and so when this lunatic and I mean, I'm just going to be quite frank here and say Donald Trump is a complete lunatic, right... when this lunatic is running for office who shows total disregard for existing institutions, like complete willingness to casually break the law. An electorate that actually was full of people who felt (themselves) treated respectfully and protected and supported by our legal and political institutions would have sent that guy packing in a heartbeat. But because the American people don't have that experience right now, I think that's what made us vulnerable to somebody like Donald Trump.Tobi; Thank you so much, Paul. It's been so fascinating talking to you.Paul; Thank you. This has been a lot of fun. Yeah, I'm happy to come back in a year when I've got the platform thing done.Tobi; Yeah, I'm so looking forward to that. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ideasuntrapped.com/subscribe

Big thought of the day: You can circumvent social media algorithm woes by shifting your focus to BUILDING A COMMUNITY on these platforms. On this episode of Teal Talk S4 originally recorded back in September, Jenny is joined by Paul Gowder, founder of the website Powwows.com. By implementing his engagement strategies and forming genuine personal connections with his followers, Paul sparked the creation of a Pow Wow Nation, tens of thousands strong. In Mediavine On Air Episode 29, Paul will share ways to grow community through social media and then how to expand beyond the walled gardens. You don't want to miss it! Helpful Resources Helpful Resources SlidePowWows.comPaul's WebsitePowWows.com Facebook Page https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iySNpkEEBqw Transcript [MUSIC PLAYING] JENNY GUY: Hey, guys. How is Tuesday treating you so far? Is it fall-like in your neck of the woods? In Oklahoma, it has gone back to the mid to upper 80s with some 90s sandwiched in there for fun, so the only place I can wear fall fashion comfortably is in air conditioning. So a big welcome to you from my home, a.k.a. the meat locker. This is Teal Talk, and I am your host, Jenny Guy. It is so great to see you today. Is anyone else also in absolute shock that it's October later this week? Does that feel wrong? Like, how did that happen? Isn't it still 2020? Paul, like, are you continuously-- PAUL GOWDER: The whole last two years, you can't really tell where we are in time, yeah. JENNY GUY: It's wrong that I'm aging, but I can't tell you what's happened or any of it. It's so bizarre. It's so, so bizarre. But the good thing, the silver lining-- I don't know if anyone else-- I love fall. I think it is-- it's one of my favorite seasons. And on top of that, I don't know that there are any content creators that don't love Q4. It is such a wonderful, magical time for us for a number of reasons, and we've got a lot of really exciting programming planned for you guys coming up to help you make the most of this time when advertising spend is going to be at its peak for most of the niches that we work with in the lifestyle spectrum, just to make sure that all of that top content that is going to have eyes on it is performing at its max. So we will have all of those things happening and coming your way in the coming weeks. And then this week, keep your eyes peeled for our earnings calendar, which is coming out to let everybody know how to maximize those days when spend is traditionally higher. So we'll be sharing that shortly. But for today, what we're talking about is a different way of looking at social media. And we're very excited to have Paul Gowder with us here. Rather than talking about trying to go viral or trying to beat the "A" word that we talk about so often, with Facebook particularly, the algorithm word, we're going to come at this from a different direction and come at it from the building of a community. And I am so pleased to have Paul Gowder with us today. He is the founder of Powwows.com. He graduated from the University of South Carolina in 1994 with a Bachelor of Arts degree in political science and again in 1996 with a master of public administration. Paul enjoys traveling with his wife and daughter, including over 30 trips as a family to Walt Disney World. That is something I can get behind, 10 out of 10. Have you been in the last, strange 18 months? PAUL GOWDER: Several times, yes. JENNY GUY: Yeah? PAUL GOWDER: Yeah. JENNY GUY: Hey, that's awesome. And is Galaxy's Edge as amazing as everyone says it is? PAUL GOWDER: Rise of the Resistance is the best thing Walt Disney World or Disney Company has ever built. It's unbelievable. But I mean, you can see, I'm a Star Wars person, so it's-- JENNY GUY: Yes. PAUL GOWDER: --incredible. JENNY GUY: I have been admiring Paul's background for a while now, and I'm dying to go to Galaxy's Edge. So what we're going to do, guys,

''Rule of law'' is the generally accepted description for how well a political system conforms to formal rules - rather than functioning through the whims of the most powerful social or political agents. For a society to be described as one functioning under rule of law - there must be rules and those rules must be equally applied to everyone in the society. Let us call this Letter of the Law. These rules are usually expressed through the constitution of a country and enforced through the courts. But simply having rules and enforcing them does not suffice in the making of the rule of law - and it is an incomplete (however accurate) conception of it. Some rules can be drafted in bad faith or with the express purpose of protecting the interest of the political elites responsible for governance. This is why many scholars have argued that the rule of law can only be said to exist in a state that functions under rules designed to protect the civil liberties (individual rights, freedom of speech, freedom of association, etc.) of the people living within its territory. Let us call this the Character or Spirit of the Law. The character of the law understood as the fulfilment of constitutionally-guaranteed civil liberties is the most common standard by which governance is judged to conform or deviate from the rule of law. For example, countries that routinely violate the rights of citizens in whatever form cannot be said to be governed by the rule of law, even if it has a written constitution. Consideration of the character of the law is the context to understanding the work of my guest on this episode, Paul Gowder.He is a professor of law at NorthWestern university with a broad research interest and expertise. Paul departs from this common derivation of the character of the law as rooted in liberty - and argued that for the rule of law to be broadly applicable in different societies (not dependent on the political institutions and ethical ideals of any specific society) with varying cultures and traditions of governance, it must be rooted in Equality. To understand Paul's argument, I will briefly state two important aspects that set the tone for our conversation - this should not be taken as an exhaustive summary of his work and I encourage you to check out his website and book. The first is that the rule of law as a principle regulates the actions of the state (government), and it is not to be conflated with other rules that regulate the actions of citizens. This is such an important point because one of the most egregious expressions of the law is when a government uses it to oppress citizens. Secondly, Paul outlines three components of the rule of law based on equality as 1) regularity - the government can only use coercion when it is acting in ''good faith'' and under ''reasonable interpretation'' of rules that already exist and are specific to the circumstances. 2) publicity - the law has to be accessible to everyone without barriers (''officials have a responsibility to explain their application of the law, ...failure to do so commits hubris and terror against the public"). 3) generality - the law must be equally applicable to all. Putting all these elements together gives us a rule of law regime where everyone is equal before the law, and the state does not wantonly abuse citizens or single out particular groups for systematic abuse.I enjoyed this conversation very much, and I want to thank Paul for talking to me. Thank you guys too for always listening, and for the other ways you support this project.TRANSCRIPTTobi; I greatly enjoyed your work on the rule of law. I've read your papers, I've read your book, and I like it very much. I think it's a great public service if I can say that because for a lot of time, I am interested in economic development and that is mostly the issue that this podcast talks about. And what you see in that particular conversation is there hasn't really been that much compatibility between the question of the rule of law or the laws that should regulate the actions of the state, and its strategy for economic development. Most of the time, you often see even some justification, I should say, to trample on rights in as much as you get development, you get high-income growth for it. And what I found in your work is, this does not have to be so. So what was your eureka moment in coming up with your concept, we are going to unpack a lot of the details very soon, but what motivated you to write this work or to embark on this project?Paul; Yeah, I think for me, part of the issue that really drives a lot of how I think about the rule of law and you know, reasons behind some of this work is really a difference between the way that those of us who think about human freedom and human equality, right? I think of it as philosophers, right. So they're philosophers and philosophers think about the ability of people to live autonomous lives, to sort of stand tall against their government, to live lives of respect, and freedom and equality. And that's one conversation. And so we see people, like, you know, Ronald Dworkin, thinking about what the rule of law can deliver to human beings in that sense. And then, you know, there's this entire development community, you know, the World Bank, lots of the US foreign policy, all of the rest of those groups of people and groups of ideas, talk about the rule of law a lot and work to measure the rule of law and invest immense amounts of money in promoting what they call the rule of law across the world. But mostly, it seems to be protecting property rights for multinational investment. And I mean, that makes some kind of sense, if you think that what the rule of law is for is economic development, is increasing the GDP of a country and integrating it into favourable international networks of trade. But if you think that it's about human flourishing, then you get a completely different idea of what the rule of law can be, and should be. And so this sort of really striking disjuncture between the two conversations has driven a lot of my work, especially recently, and especially reflecting even on the United States, I think that we can see how domestic rule of law struggles - which we absolutely have, I mean, look at the Trump administration, frankly, as revolving around this conflict between focusing on economics and focusing on human rights and human wellbeing.Tobi; It's interesting the polarization you're talking about. And one way that I also see it play out is [that] analyst or other stakeholders who participate in the process of nation-building in Africa, in Nigeria… a lot of us that care about development and would like to see our countries grow and develop and become rich, are often at opposite ends with other people in the civil society who are advocating for human rights, who are advocating for gender equality, who are advocating for so many other social justice issues. And it always seems like there's no meeting ground, you know, between those set of views, and I believe it does not have to be so. So one thing I'm going to draw you into quite early is one of the distinctions you made in so many of your papers and even your book is the difference between the conception of the rule of law that you are proposing versus the generally accepted notion of the rule of law based on individual liberty in the classical liberal tradition. I also think that's part of the problem, because talking about individual liberty comes with this heavy ideological connotation, and giving so many things that have happened in Africa with colonialism and so many other things, nobody wants any of that, you know. So you are proposing a conception of the rule of law that is based on equality. Tell me, how does that contrast with this popularly accepted notion of the rule of law [which is] based on individual liberty?Paul; So I think the way to think about it is to start with the notion of the long term stability of a rule of law system. And so here is one thing that I propose as a fact about legal orders. Ultimately, any kind of stable legal order that can control the powerful, that is, that can say to a top-level political leader, or a powerful multinational corporation, or whomever, no, you can't do this, this violates the law and make that statement stick depends on widespread collective mobilization, if only as a threat, right. And so it's kind of an analytic proposition about the nature of power, right? If you've got a top-level political leader who's in command of an army, and they want to do something illegal, it's going to require very broad-based opposition, and hence very broad-based commitment to the idea of leaders that follow the law in order to prevent the person in charge of an army from just casually violating it whenever they want. Okay, accept that as true, what follows from that? Well, what follows from that is that the legal system has to actually be compatible with the basic interests of all. And what that tends to mean and I think this is true, both historically, and theoretically, is leaving aside the philosophical conceptual difference between liberty and equality, which I'm not sure is really all that important. Like I think, ultimately, liberty and equality as moral ideas tend to blur together when you really unpack them. But practically speaking, any stable legal order that can control the powerful has to be compatible with the interests of a broad-based group of the human beings who participate in that legal order. And what that entails is favouring a way of thinking about the rule of law that focuses on being able to recruit the interests of even the worst off. In other words, one that's focused on equality, one that's focused on protecting the interests of the less powerful rather than a laissez-faire libertarian conception of the rule of law that tends to be historically speaking, compatible with substantial amounts of economic inequality, hyper-focus on ideas - like property rights, that support the long-standing interests of those who happen to be at the top of the economy, often against the interests of those that happened to be at the bottom of the economy, right. That's simply not a legal order that is sustainable in the long run. Lately, I've been thinking a lot about the way that this has played out in [the] United States history, in particular. I might have a book that's coming out in December that focuses on a historical account of the development of the rule of law, particularly in the United States. I mean, it's my own country. And so at some point, I had to get talked into writing that book. And we can see that in our history right at the get-go, you know, in the United States, at the very beginning, the rule of law dialogue tended to be focused on protecting the interests of wealthy elite property holders. And this actually played a major part, for example, in the United States' most grievous struggle, namely the struggle over slavery, because slaveholders really relied on this conception of the Rule of Law focusing on individual freedom and property rights to insist on a right to keep holding slaves against the more egalitarian idea that “hey, wait a minute, the enslaved have a right to be participants in the legal system as well.” And so we can see these two different conceptions of legality breaking the United States and breaking the idea of legal order in the United States right at the get-go. And we see this in country after country after country. You know, another example is Pinochet's Chile, which was the victim of [the] United States' economics focused rule of law promotion efforts that favoured the interests of property holders under this libertarian conception over the interests of ordinary citizens, democracy and mass interests. In other words, over the egalitarian conception, and again, you know, devolved into authoritarianism and chaos.Tobi; Yeah, nice bit of history there, but dialling all the way, if you'll indulge me... dialling all the way to the present, or maybe the recent past, of course; where I see another relevance and tension is development, and its geopolitical significance and the modernization projects that a lot of developed countries have done in so many poor and violent nations, you know, around the world. I mean, at the time when Africa decolonized, you know, a lot of the countries gravitated towards the communist bloc, socialism [and] that process was shunted, failed, you know, there was a wave of military coups all over the continent, and it was a really dark period.But what you see is that a lot of these countries, Nigeria, for example, democratized in 1999, a lot of other countries either before then or after followed suit. And what you see is, almost all of them go for American-style federal system, and American-style constitutional democracy, you know. And how that tradition evolved... I mean, there's a lot you can explain and unpack here... how that tradition evolved, we are told is the law has a responsibility to treat people as individuals. But you also find that these are societies where group identities are very, very strong, you know, and what you get are constitutions that are weakly enforced, impractical, and a society that is perpetually in struggle. I mean, you have a constitution, you have rules, and you have a government that openly disregards them, because the constitutional tradition is so divorced from how a lot of our societies evolve. And what I see you doing in your work is that if we divorce the rule of law from the ideal society, you know [like] some societies that we look up to, then we can come up with a set of practical propositions that the rule of law should fulfil, so walk me through how you resolve these tensions and your propositions?Paul; Well, so it's exactly what you just said, right? I mean, we have to focus on actual existing societies and the actual way that people organize their lives, right. And so here's the issue is, just like I said a minute ago, the rule of law fundamentally depends on people. And when I say people, I don't just mean elites. I don't just mean the wealthy, I don't just mean the people in charge of armies, and the people in charge of courthouses, right? Like the rule of law depends, number one, on people acting collectively to hold the powerful to the law. And number two, on people using the institutions that we say are associated with the rule of law. And so just as you describe, one sort of really common failure condition for international rule of law development efforts - and I don't think that this is a matter of sort of recipient countries admiring countries like the US, I think this is a matter of international organizations and countries like the US having in their heads a model of what the law looks like and sort of pressing it on recipient countries.But you know, when you build institutions that don't really resemble how the people in a country actually organize their social, political and legal lives, you shouldn't be surprised when nobody uses them. You shouldn't be surprised when they're ineffective. But I mean, I think that it's been fairly compared to a kind of second-generation colonialism in that sense where countries like the US and like Germany, attempt to export their legal institutions to other countries, without attending to the ways that the people in those countries already have social and legal resources to run their lives. And so I'll give you an example that's interesting from Afghanistan. So in Afghanistan, sort of post the 2000s invasion, and so forth, some researchers, mostly affiliated with the Carnegie Institution, found that the really effective rule of law innovations, the really effective interventions were ones that relied on existing social groups and existing structures of traditional authority. And so, you know, you could build a courthouse and like, ask a formal centralized state to do something, maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't, maybe people would use it, maybe they wouldn't. But if you took local community leaders, local religious leaders, gave them training, and how to use the social capital they already have to help do things like adjudicate disputes, well, those would actually be effective, because they fit into the existing social organization that already exists. So I'll give you another example. I have a student who... I had… I just graduated an S.J.D student from Uganda who wrote a dissertation on corruption in Uganda. And one of the things that he advocated for I think, really sensibly was, “ okay, we've got this centralized government, but we've also got all of these traditional kingdoms, and the traditional kingdoms, they're actually a lot more legitimate in the sociological sense than the centralized government.People trust the traditional kingdoms, people rely on the traditional kingdoms for services, for integrating themselves into their society. And so one useful way of thinking about anti-corruption reforms is to try and empower the traditional kingdoms that already have legitimacy so that they can check the centralized government. And so that kind of work, I think, is where we have real potential to do global rule of law development without just creating carbon copies of the United States. Tobi; The process you describe, I will say, as promising as it may sound, what I want to ask you is how then do you ensure that a lot of these traditional institutions that can be empowered to provide reasonable checks to the power of the central government also fulfil the conditions of equality in their relation to the general public? Because even historically, a lot of these institutions are quite hierarchical...Paul; Oh, yeah... and I think in particular, women's rights are a big problem.Tobi; Yeah, yeah and there's a lot of abuses that go on locally, even within those communities, you know. We have traditional monarchies who exercise blanket rights over land ownership, over people's wives, over so many things, you know, so how then does this condition of equality transmit across the system?Paul; Yeah, no, I think that's the really hard question. I tell you right now that part of the answer is that those are not end-state processes. By this I mean that any realistic conception of how we can actually build effective rule of law institutions, but also genuinely incorporate everyone's interests in a society is going to accept that there's going to be a kind of dynamic tension between institutions.You know, sometimes we're going to have to use the centralized state to check traditional institutions. Sometimes we're going to have to use traditional institutions to check the centralized state. Elinor Ostrom, Nobel Prize-winning political scientist and her sort of the Bloomington School of Political Economy, emphasized for many years this idea that they called Polycentrism. That is the idea that multiple, overlapping governance organizations that are sort of forced to negotiate with one another, and forced to learn from one another, and really integrate with one another in this sort of complex tension-filled kind of way, actually turns out to be a really effective method of achieving what we might call good governance. And part of the reason is because they give a lot of different people, in different levels of [the] organization, ways to challenge one another, ways to demand inclusion in this decision, and let somebody else handle that decision, and participate jointly in this other decision. And so I think that neither the centralized state alone, nor traditional institutions alone is going to be able to achieve these goals. But I think efforts to integrate them have some promise. And India has done a lot of work, you know, sort of mixed record of success, perhaps, but has done a lot of work in these lines. I think, for example, of many of the ways that India has tried to promote the growth of Panchayats, of local councils in decision making, including in law enforcement, but at the same time, has tried to do things like promote an even mandate, the inclusion of women, the inclusion of Scheduled Castes, you know, the inclusion of the traditionally subordinated in these decision making processes. And as I said, they haven't had complete success. But it's an example of a way that the centralized state can both support traditional institutions while pushing those institutions to be more egalitarian.Tobi; Let's delve into the three conditions that you identified in your work, which any rule of law state should fulfil. And that is regularity, publicity, and generality. Kindly unpack those three for me.Paul; Absolutely. So regularity is...we can think of it as just the basic rule of law idea, right? Like the government obeys the law. And so if you think about this notion of regularity, it's... do we have a situation where the powerful are actually bound by legal rules? Or do we have a situation where, you know, they just do whatever they want? And so I'd say that, you know, there's no state that even counts as a rule of law state in the basic level without satisfying that condition, at least to some reasonable degree. The idea of publicity really draws on a lot of what I've already been saying about the recruitment of broad participation in the law. That is, when I say publicity, what I mean is that in addition to just officials being bound by the law, ordinary people have to be able to make use of the law in at least two senses. One, they have to be able to make use of the law to defend themselves. I call this the individualistic side of publicity, right? Like if some police officer wants to lock you up, the decision on whether or not you violated the law has to respond to your advocacy, and your ability to defend yourself in some sense. And then there's also the collective side of this idea of publicity, which is that the community as a whole has to be able to collectively enforce the boundaries of the legal system. And you know, we'd talk a lot more about that, I think that's really the most important idea. And then the third idea of generality is really the heart of the egalitarian idea that we've been talking about, which is that the law has to actually treat people as equals. And one thing that I think is really important about the way that I think about these three principles is that they're actually really tightly integrated. By tightly integrated, I mean you're only going to get in real-world states, regularity (that is, officials bound by the law) if you have publicity (that is, if you have people who aren't officials who actually can participate in the legal system and can hold officials to the law). We need the people to hold the officials in line. You're only going to get publicity if you have generality. That is, the people are only going to be motivated to use the legal system and to defend the legal system if the legal system actually treats them as equals. And so you really need publicity to have stable regularity, you really need generality to have stable publicity.Tobi; Speaking of regularity, when you say what constrains the coercive power of the state is when it is authorised by good faith and reasonable interpretation of pre-existing reasonably specific rules. That sounds very specific. And it's also Scalonian in a way, but a lot of people might quibble a bit about what is reasonable, you know, it sounds vague, right? So how would you condition or define reasonable in this sense, and I know you talked about hubris when you were talking about publicity. But is there a minimum level of responsibility for reasonability on the part of the citizen in relation to a state?Paul; That's, in a lot of ways, the really hard philosophical question, because one of the things that we know about law is that it is inherently filled with disagreement, right? Like our experience of the legal system and of every state that actually has something like the rule of law is that people radically disagree about the legal propriety of actions of the government. And so in some sense, this idea of reasonableness is kind of a cop-out. But it's a cop-out that is absolutely necessary, because there's no, you know, what [Thomas] Nagel called a view from nowhere. There's no view from nowhere from which we can evaluate whether or not on a day to day basis, officials are actually complying with the law in some kind of correct sense. But again, I think, you know, as you said, to some extent, that implies that some of the responsibility for evaluating this reasonableness criterion falls down to day to day politics, falls down to the judgment of ordinary citizens. Like, my conception of the rule of law is kind of sneakily a deeply democratic conception, because it recognizes given the existence of uncertainty as to what the law actually requires of officials both on a case by case basis. And, broadly speaking, the only way that we're ever going to be able to say, Well, you know, officials are more or less operating within a reasonable conception of what their legal responsibilities are, is if we empower the public at large to make these judgments. If we have institutions like here in the US, our jury trials, if we have an underlying backstop of civil society and politics, that is actively scrutinizing and questioning official action.Tobi; So speaking of publicity, which is my favorite...I have to say...Paul; Mine too. You could probably tell. Tobi; Because I think that therein lies the power of the state to get away with abusive use of its legitimacy, or its power, so to speak. When you say that officials have a responsibility to explain their application of the law, and a failure to do so commits hubris and terror against the public. So those two situations - hubris and terror, can you explain those to me a bit?Paul; Yeah. So these are really, sort of, moral philosophy ideas at heart, particularly hubris. The idea is there's a big difference, even if I have authority over you, between my exercising that authority in the form of commands and my exercising that authority in the form of a conversation that appeals to your reasoning capacity, right. So these days, I'm thinking about it in part with reference to... I'm going to go very philosophical with you here... but in reference to Kant's humanity formulation of the categorical imperative, sorry. But that is a sense in which if I'm making decisions about your conduct, and your life and, you know, affecting your fundamental interests, that when I express the reasons to you for those decisions, and when I genuinely listen to the reasons that you offer, and genuinely take those into account in my decision making process, I'm showing a kind of respect for you, which is consistent with the idea of a society of equals.As opposed to just hi, I'm wiser than you, and so my decision is, you know, you go this way, you violated the law, right? Are we a military commander? Or are we a judge? Both the military commander and the judge exercise authority, but they do so in very different ways. One is hierarchical, the other I would contend is not.Tobi; Still talking about publicity here, and why I love it so much is one important, should I say… a distinction you made quite early in your book is that the rule of law regulates the action of the state, in relation to its citizens.Paul; Yes.Tobi; Often and I would count myself among people who have been confused by that point as saying that the rule of law regulates the action of the society in general. I have never thought to make that distinction. And it's important because often you see that maybe when dealing with civil disobedience, or some kind of action that the government finds disruptive to its interests, or its preferences, the rule of law is often invoked as a way for governments to use sometimes without discretion, its enforcement powers, you know.So please explain further this distinction between the rule of law regulating the state-citizen relation versus the general law and order in the society. I mean, you get this from Trump, you get this from so many other people who say, Oh, we are a law and order society, I'm a rule of law candidate.Paul; Oh, yeah.Tobi; You cannot do this, you cannot do that. We cannot encourage the breakdown of law and order in the society. So, explain this difference to me.Paul; Absolutely, then this is probably the most controversial part of my account of the rule of law. I think everybody disagrees with this. I sort of want to start by talking about how I got to this view. And I think I really got to this view by reflecting on the civil rights movement in the United States in particular, right. Because, you know, what we would so often see, just as you say about all of these other contexts, is we would see officials, we would see judges - I mean, there are, you know, Supreme Court cases where supreme court justices that are normally relatively liberal and sympathetic, like, you know, Justice Hugo Black scolding Martin Luther King for engaging in civil disobedience on the idea that it threatens the rule of law. It turns out, and this is something that I go into in the book that's coming out in December... it turns out that King actually had a sophisticated theory of when it was appropriate to engage in civil disobedience and when it wasn't. But for me, reflecting on that conflict in particular, and reflecting on the fact that the same people who were scolding peaceful lunch-counter-sit-ins for threatening the rule of law and, you know, causing society to descend into chaos and undermining property rights and all the rest of that nonsense, were also standing by and watching as southern governors sent police in to beat and gas and fire hose and set dogs on peaceful protests in this sort of completely new set of like, totally unbounded explosions of state violence. And so it seems to me sort of intuitively, like these can't be the same problem, right, like ordinary citizens, doing sit-ins, even if they're illegal, even if we might have some reason to criticize them, it can't be the same reason that we have to criticize Bull Connor for having the cops beat people. And part of the reason that that's the case, and this is what I call the Hobbesian property in the introduction to the rule of law in the real world...part of the reason is just the reality of what states are, right? Like, protesters don't have tanks and police dogs, and fire hoses, right? Protesters typically don't have armies. If they do, then we're in a civil war situation, not a rule of law situation, the state does have all of those things. And so one of the features of the state that makes it the most appropriate site for this talk about the rule of law is this the state has, I mean, most modern states have, at least on a case by case basis, overwhelming power. And so we have distinct moral reasons to control overwhelming power than we do to control a little bit of legal disobedience, right, like overwhelming power is overwhelming. It's something that has a different moral importance for its control. Then the second idea is at the same time what I call the [...] property... is the state makes claims about its use of power, right? Like ordinary people, when they obey the law or violate the law, they don't necessarily do so with reference to a set of ideas that they're propagating about their relationship to other people. Whereas when modern states send troops in to beat people up, in a way what they're doing is they're saying that they're doing so in all of our names, right, particularly, but not exclusively in democratic governments. There's a way in which the state represents itself as acting on behalf of the political community at large. And so it makes sense to have a distinctive normative principle to regulate that kind of power.Tobi; I know you sort of sidestepped this in the book, and maybe it doesn't really fit with your overall argument. But I'm going to push you on that topic a bit. So how does the rule of law state as a matter of institutional design then handles... I know you said that there are separate principles that can be developed for guiding citizen actions, you know...Paul; Yes. Tobi; I mean, let's be clear that you are not saying that people are free to act however they want.Paul; I'm not advocating anarchy.Tobi; Exactly. So how does the rule of law state then handle citizens disagreements or conflicting interests around issues of social order? And I'll give you an example. I mentioned right at the beginning of our conversation what happened in Nigeria in October 2020. There's a unit of the police force that was created to handle violent crimes. Needless to say that they went way beyond their remit and became a very notoriously abusive unit of the police force. Picking up people randomly, lock them up, extort them for money. And there was a situation where a young man was murdered, and his car stolen by this same unit of the police force and young people all over the country, from Lagos to Port Harcourt to Abuja, everywhere, felt we've had enough, right, and everybody came out in protest. It was very, very peaceful, I'd say, until other interests, you know, infiltrated that action. Paul; Right. Tobi; But what I noticed quite early in that process was that even within the spirits of that protests, there were disagreements between citizens - protesters blocking roads, you know, versus people who feel well, your protest should not stop me from going to work, you know, and so many other actions by the protesters that other people with, maybe not conflicting interests, but who have other opinions about strategy or process feel well, this is not right. This is not how to do this. This is not how you do this, you know, and I see that that sort of provided the loophole, I should say, for the government to then move in and take a ruthlessly violent action. You know, there was a popular tollgate in Lagos in the richest neighbourhood in Lagos that was blocked for 10 days by the protesters. And I mean, after this, the army basically moved in and shot people to death. Today, you still see people who would say, Oh, well, that's tragic. But should these people have been blocking other people from going about their daily business? So how does the rule of law regulate issues of social order vis-a-vis conflict of interest?Paul; So I think this is actually a point in favour of my stark distinction between state action and social action as appropriate for thinking about the rule of law. Because when you say that the state used...what I still fundamentally think of as like minor civil disobedience...so, like blocking some roads, big deal! Protesters block roads all the time, right, like protesters have blocked roads throughout human history, you know, like, sometimes it goes big, right? Like they love blocking roads in the French Revolution. But oftentimes, it's just blocking... so I blocked roads.I participated in, you know, some protests in the early 2000s. I participated in blocking roads in DC, right, like, fundamentally "big deal!" is the answer that the state ought to give. And so by saying to each other and to the government, when we talk about the rule of law, we mean, the state's power has to be controlled by the law, I think that gives us a language to say... even though people are engaging in illegal things, the state still has to follow legal process in dealing with it, right.The state still has to use only the level of force allowed by the law to arrest people. The state can't just send in the army to shoot people. And the principle that we appeal to is this principle of the rule of law. Yeah, maintaining the distinction between lawbreaking by ordinary people and law-breaking by the state helps us understand why the state shouldn't be allowed to just send in troops whenever people engage in a little bit of minor lawbreaking and protests.Tobi; So how does the law... I mean, we are entering a bit of a different territory, how does the law in your conception handles what... well, maybe these are fancy definitions, but what some people will call extraordinary circumstances. Like protests with political interests? Maybe protesters that are funded and motivated to unseat an incumbent government? Or in terrorism, you know, where you often have situations where there are no laws on paper to deal with these sort of extraordinary situations, you know, and they can be extremely violent, they can be extremely strange, they're usually things that so many societies are not equipped to handle. So how should the rule of law regulate the action of the state in such extraordinary circumstances?Paul; Yeah, so this is the deep problem of the rule of law, you know, this is why people still read Carl Schmitt, right, because Carl Schmitt's whole account of executive power basically is, hey, wait a minute emergencies happen, and when emergencies happen, liberal legal ideas like the rule of law dropout, and so fundamentally, you just have like raw sovereignty. And that means that the state just kind of does what it must. Right. So here's what I feel about Schmitt. One is, maybe sometimes that's true, right? And again, I think about the US context, because I'm an American and you know, I have my own history, right? And so in the US context, I think, again, about, Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War, right.Like Abraham Lincoln broke all kinds of laws in the Civil War. Like today, we'd call some of the things that he did basically assuming dictatorial power in some respects. I mean, he did that in the greatest emergency that the country had ever faced and has ever faced since then. And he did it in a civil war. And sometimes that happens, and I think practically speaking, legal institutions have a habit of not standing in the way in truly dire situations like that. But, and here's why I want to push back against Carl Schmitt... but what a legal order can then do is after the emergency has passed...number one, the legal order can be a source of pressure for demanding and accounting of when the emergency has passed, right. And so again, I think of the United States War on Terror, you know, we still have people in United States' custody imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay.September 11 2001, was almost 20 years ago. It's actually 20 years ago and a month, and we still have people locked up in Guantanamo Bay. That's insane. That's completely unjustifiable. And one of the jobs of the legal system is to pressure the executive to say, okay, buddy, is the emergency over yet? No, really, we think that the emergency is over yet. I want reasons, right, publicity again, I want an explanation from you of why you think the emergency is still ongoing. And the legal system can force the executive to be accountable for the claim that the emergency is still ongoing. That's number one. Number two is that law tends to be really good at retroactively, sort of, retrofitting things into legal order, right. And so again, I think about the Civil War. You know, after the US Civil War, lots of civil wars, sorry. American-centric person trying to fight against it. But after the US Civil War, you know, the courts took a pause. And then we have a lot of cases where they took a lot of the things that Lincoln did, they said, okay, some of them at least were illegal, some of them were legal, but only under very specific circumstances. And so they actually built legal doctrine that took into account the emergency that Lincoln faced, and then later wars, such as in the Second World War, the courts took the lessons from the experience in the American Civil War, and used that to impose more constraints. So to bring it about that the emergency actions that Franklin Roosevelt took in the Second World War weren't completely sui generis, sort of like right acts of sovereignty, but were regulated by legal rules created during the Civil War, and after the Civil War. And again, they weren't perfect, right? You know, during the Second World War, the United States interned Japanese Americans, you know, again, sort of completely lawless, completely unjustifiable, but you know, it's an ongoing process. The point is that the legal system is always... the law is always reactive in emergencies. But the reactive character of the law can nonetheless be used as a way to control and channel sovereign power, even in these sort of Schmittian emergency situations.Tobi; So two related questions, your work is interdisciplinary, because you try to blend a lot of social science into legal philosophy. But speaking of legal order and your primary profession, I mean.. for the sake of the audience parties into a lot of other cool stuff, I'm going to be putting up his website in the show notes. But speaking of legal order, and the legal profession, why is so much of the legal profession fascinated with what I would say the rule by law, as opposed to the rule of law. A lot of what you get from lawyers, even some law professors in some situations is [that] the law is the law, and you have to obey it. And even if you are going to question it, however unjustified it may seem, you still have to follow some processes that maybe for ordinary citizens are not so accessible or extremely costly, you know, which I think violate regularity, right, the way you talk about it retrospective legislation, and so many other things. So why is the legal profession so fascinated with the law, as opposed to justification for the law?Paul; Yeah, I think that question kind of answers itself, right. It's unfortunate... I mean, it's sort of natural but it's unfortunate that the people who most influence our dialogue about the way that we, you know, live in [the] society together with a state, namely by organizing ourselves with law happen to be people who are the specialists who find it easiest, right? And so I think the simple answer is right on this one, at least in countries like the United States, I'm not sure how true this is in other countries. But in the United States, the domination of legal discourse by lawyers necessarily means that the sort of real practical, real-world ways in which ordinary people find interacting with anything legal to be difficult, oppressive, or both just aren't in view, right? This is hard for them to understand.But I think in the US, one of the distortions that we've had is that we have an extremely hierarchical legal profession, right. So we have very elite law schools, and those very elite law schools - one of which I teach at - tend to predominantly produce lawyers who primarily work for wealthy corporations and sort of secondarily work for the government. Those lawyers tend to be the ones that end up at the top of the judiciary, that end up in influential positions in academia, that end up, you know, in Congress. The lawyers that, you know, see poor people, see people of subordinated minority groups and see the very different kinds of interactions with the legal system that people who are worse off have, that see the way that the law presents itself, not as a thing that you can use autonomously to structure your own life. But as a kind of external imposition, that sort of shows up and occasionally inflicts harm on you. Those lawyers aren't the ones who end up in our corridors of power. And it's very unfortunate, it's a consequence of the hierarchical nature of, at least in the US, our legal profession. And I suspect it's similar in these other countries as well.Tobi; In your opinion, what's the... dare I say the sacrosanct and objective - those are rigid conditions sorry - expression of the rule of law? The current general conception of the rule accedes to the primacy of the Constitution, right. I've often found that problematic because in some countries you find constitutional provisions that are egregious, and in other cases, you find lawyers going into court to challenge certain actions that they deem unjust, or that are truly unjust on the basis of the same constitution. Right. So what do you think is the most practical expression of the rule of law? Is it written laws? Is it the opinion of the judges? Is it how officials hold themselves accountable? What's the answer?Paul; So I think I'm gonna like sort of twist this a little bit and interpret that question is like, how do you know the extent to which the rule of law exists in a particular place? And my answer is, can ordinary people look officials in the eye, right, you know... if you're walking down the street, and you see a police officer, you know, are you afraid? Or can you walk past them and confidently know you're doing nothing wrong so there's nothing really effectively but they can do to you, right? If you're called in to deal with some kind of bureaucratic problem, like the tax office, can you trust that you exist in a relationship of respect? You know, can you trust that when you show them, actually here are my receipts, I really did have that expense, that that's going to be taken seriously? You know, if people, everybody, feels like they can stand tall, and look government officials in the eye, then to that extent, I think that the rule of law exists in a society.Tobi; Final question, what's the coolest idea you're working on right now?Paul; Oh, gosh. So like I said, I've got two books under contract right now. The first book is a history/theoretical constitutional law account of the development and existing state of the rule of law in the United States. The second book, which I'm more excited about, because it's the one that I plan to write this year, but it's also a lot harder, is I'm trying to take some of the governance design ideas that we see from the notion of rule of law development, and others such as governance development things and apply them to Private Internet platforms, right? Like, basically to Facebook. Um, I was actually involved in some of the work, not at a super high level, but I was involved in some of the work in designing or doing the research for designing Facebook's oversight board. And I'm kind of trying to expand on some of those ideas and think about, you know, if we really believe that private companies, especially in these internet platforms are doing governance right now, can we take lessons from how the rest of the world and how actual governments and actual states have developed techniques of governing behaviour in highly networked, large scale super-diverse environments and use those lessons in the private context? Maybe we can maybe we can't I'm not sure yet. Hopefully, by the time I finish the book, I'll know.Tobi; That's interesting. And I'll ask you this, a similar, I'll say a related situation is currently happening in Nigeria right now, where the President's Twitter handle or username, tweeted something that sounded like a thinly veiled threat to a particular ethnic group. And lots of people who disagreed with that tweet reported the tweet, and Twitter ended up deleting the tweet in question, which high-level officials in Nigeria found extremely offensive, and going as far as to assert their sovereign rights over Twitter and say, well, it may be your platform, but it is our country and we are banning you. How would you adjudicate such a situation? I mean, there's the question of banning Donald Trump from the platform and so many other things that have come up.Paul; Yeah, I mean, it's hard, right? So there are no easy answers to these kinds of problems. I think, ultimately, what we have to do is we have to build more legitimate ways to make these decisions. I mean, here are two things that we cannot do, right?Number one is we can't just let government officials, especially when, you know, as with the Donald Trump example, and so many others, the government officials are the ones who are engaging in the terrible conduct make these decisions. Number two is we also just can't let a bunch of people sitting in the Bay Area in California make those decisions. Like, ultimately, this is on, you know, property in some abstracted sense of like the shareholders of these companies. But we cannot simply allow a bunch of people in San Francisco, in Menlo Park, and you know, Cupertino and Mountain View, and all of those other little tech industry cities that have no understanding of local context to make the final decisions here. And so what we need to do is we need to build more robust institutions to include both global and local and affected countries, grassroots participation, in making these decisions. And I'm trying to sort of sketch out what the design for those might look like. But, you know, talk to me in about a year. And hopefully, I'll have a book for you that will actually have a sketch.Tobi; You bet I'm going to hold you to that. So, a year from now. So still on the question of ideas, because the show is about ideas. What's the one idea you'd like to see spread everywhere?Paul; Oh, gosh, you should have warned me in advance... that... I'm going to go back to what I said at the very beginning about the rule of law. Like I think that the rule of law depends on people, right? Like there is no such thing as the rule of law without a society and a legal system that genuinely is equal and advantageous to ordinary people enough to be the kind of thing that people actually support. Like ordinary people... if you cannot recruit the support of ordinary people for your legal political and social system, you cannot have the rule of law. That's true whether you're a developing country, that's true whether you're the United States, right. Like I think, you know, part of the reason that we got Donald Trump in the United States, I think, is because our legal system and with it our economy, and all the rest are so unequal in this country, that ordinary voters in the United States didn't see any reason to preserve it. Right and so when this lunatic and I mean, I'm just going to be quite frank here and say Donald Trump is a complete lunatic, right... when this lunatic is running for office who shows total disregard for existing institutions, like complete willingness to casually break the law. An electorate that actually was full of people who felt (themselves) treated respectfully and protected and supported by our legal and political institutions would have sent that guy packing in a heartbeat. But because the American people don't have that experience right now, I think that's what made us vulnerable to somebody like Donald Trump.Tobi; Thank you so much, Paul. It's been so fascinating talking to you.Paul; Thank you. This has been a lot of fun. Yeah, I'm happy to come back in a year when I've got the platform thing done.Tobi; Yeah, I'm so looking forward to that. This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at www.ideasuntrapped.com/subscribe

Paul Gowder started Pow Wows.com to bring Native American communities together, and it has grown to a massive following with over 800,000 followers! We sat down with Paul to talk about how Pow Wows.com got started, Native American culture, and how he not only has a thriving business but also an impactful community tool.   Thanks to our show sponsors!   Splash Omnimedia can take care of any marketing need you can imagine from your website, graphic design, video ads, Google optimization, uniforms, branded items, and much more. Visit their website at splashomnimedia.com and use code TRIFECTA5 for 5% off your entire order!   Check out the great equipment at Ballard Products and use discount code "TRIFECTA10" for a 10% discount on your total purchase!   Interested in some business coaching? Reach out to Alex at trusttrifecta@gmail.com to schedule a coaching session to get more out of your personal and business finances!   Great business needs great organization. Check out Jobber, the best way to run your billing, scheduling, and more at www.getjobber.com/trifecta! Use our link for 20% off your first six months!   Need a logo for your business or website? Check out No Limit Logos for a fast and professional design! Get 10% off your order by using promo code "TRIFECTA10" at checkout.   Facebook |https://www.facebook.com/down2businesspodcast   Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/downtobusinesspodcast/   Ballard Products | https://www.ballard-inc.com/products/ - Use code TRIFECTA10 for 10% off!   Jobber | https://getjobber.com/trifecta - 20% off first six months!   Splash Omnimedia | https://www.splashomnimedia.com - Use code TRIFECTA5 for 5% off!   No Limit Logos | https://nolimitlogos.com - Use code TRIFECTA10 for 10% 0ff! Eli Harris - The voice of the Down to Business Podcast!

Welcome to Pod Curiam! For this fall's first episode, Lisa Angeles, our Managing Editor, was joined by Paul Gowder, a professor of law at Northwestern. Lisa and Professor Gowder dive deeper into his article, "The Dangers to the American Rule of Law Will Outlast the Next Election." Read Professor Gowder's article and more at http://cardozolawreview.com/de-novo.

On this edition of River to River , host Ben Kieffer speaks with legal scholars Todd Pettys and Paul Gowder from the University Of Iowa College Of Law for an analysis of cases, argued before the Supreme Court, that could chart a new course for abortion law. Also, a look at a case that could force presidential electors to vote a particular way and contemplation about the possibility of an election-year confirmation battle, in case of a High Court vacancy. Guests: Todd Pettys , H. Blair and Joan V. White Chair in Civil Litigtation, professor of law at the University of Iowa Paul Gowder , professor of law at the University of Iowa

Curt and Chris interview Paul Gowder about Native American culture at camp this week. This is a great eye-opening episode to learn from Paul about the proper way to include Native American culture into camp. The guys ask lots of great questions that you probably have! Check out this week to make sure you and your camp are doing it right!

Lawyers, like so many other professionals, have a painful relationship with Microsoft Word, often spending hours on end troubleshooting. New machine learning technologies make bold claims, such as selling services that can tell you a judge's disposition. Tensions arise between a general duty of competence in using the tools of one's profession on one hand, and market actors offering “lawyer argumentation”, on the other. Is it incompetent, in an ethical sense, to not use these emerging technologies? Paul Gowder University of Iowa Law Legal Ethics in the Age of Law & Tech, Centre for Ethics, University of Toronto, March 24, 2017

In this episode, Paul Gowder, Professor of Law at the University of Iowa College of Law, discusses his article "Reconstituting We the People: Frederick Douglass and Jurgen Habermas in Conversation," which will be published in the Northwestern University Law Review. Gowder begins by describing conventional constitutional theory and explaining why internal contradictions make its theory of legitimacy unworkable. Then he describes an assortment of constitutional theories he characterizes as "constitutional conception," explaining how they solve the problems with the conventional theory, but are themselves vulnerable to other objections. Specifically, a constitution is illegitimate when it excludes people from participating in its development. Gowder observes that African-Americans have historically been excluded from constitutional development in the United States, and observes how African-American political thinkers, including Frederick Douglass have conceptualized and utilized that exclusion, in a theoretical move he calls, "cynical faith." Gowder is on Twitter at @PaulGowder. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

We're joined by Paul Gowder to discuss the rule of law, private power, and technology. We start, after important discussion of fishing bycatch and speech patterns of the western United States, with Paul's more general thoughts on the rule of law, oligopolies, and equality. Conversation then focuses on the connection between substantive politics and rule of law and principles and then on the role of technology in facilitating collective action, including through Paul's Dr. StrangeContract and a new podcast idea for Paul's fights with customer service at large corporations and a prognostication of a future of AI retention specialists vs. CancelBots. This show’s links: Paul Gowder's faculty profile (https://law.uiowa.edu/paul-gowder) and website (http://paul-gowder.com), which includes links to his writing Paul Gowder, The Rule of Law in the Real World (http://rulelaw.net) Paul Gowder, Transformative Legal Technology and the Rule of Law (https://utpjournals.press/doi/abs/10.3138/utlj.2017-0047) About bycatch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bycatch) Nathan Masters, The 5, the 101, the 405: Why Southern Californians Love Saying "the" Before Freeway Numbers (https://www.kcet.org/shows/lost-la/the-5-the-101-the-405-why-southern-californians-love-saying-the-before-freeway-numbers) Mignon Fogarty, Spendy (https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/spendy) Roadwork (http://5by5.tv/roadwork) AT&T Mobility v. Concepcion (https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17088816341526709934) Margaret Jane Radin, Boilerplate: The Fine Print, Vanishing Rights, and the Rule of Law (https://press.princeton.edu/titles/9837.html); see also Margaret Jane Radin, Boilerplate: A Threat to the Rule of Law? (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2340005) F.A. Hayek, Law, Legislation and Liberty: Vol.1 (https://books.google.com/books/about/Law_Legislation_and_Liberty_Volume_1.html?id=4TjL9Ox1ntoC) Elizabeth Anderson, What Is the Point of Equality? (https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/233897?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents) Pericles's Funeral Oration (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War/Book_2#Pericles_Funeral_Oration) Oral Argument 133: Too Many Darn Radio Buttons (http://oralargument.org/133) (guest Jim Gibson) Frank Pasquale, Is Eviction-as-a-Service the Hottest New #LegalTech Trend? (https://concurringopinions.com/archives/2016/02/is-eviction-as-a-service-the-hottest-new-legaltech-startup.html) Ron Amadeo, Talking to Google Duplex: Google’s Human-Like Phone AI Feels Revolutionary (https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/06/google-duplex-is-calling-we-talk-to-the-revolutionary-but-limited-phone-ai/) Special Guest: Paul Gowder.

Paul Gowder, Legal Ethics in the Age of Law & Tech (Mar 24, '17) by Centre for Ethics, University of Toronto

In today's show, we talk with Paul Gowder who is the founder of powwows.com and paulgowder.com. I'm really grateful that you took the time to check out this episode. I'd love to hear from you and get to know you better. Feel free to comment on the post or send me an email to talkaboutthemagicpodcast@gmail.com. Is there something in particular that stuck out to you? Thank you so much for listening to the podcast, be sure to leave a review and subscribe so you never miss any future episodes. This helps so much! Want to support the Podcast? The best way is by simply sharing it with others! I've made a Facebook and Twitter link to make is super easy for you to do.

In honor of our base 10 number system, we revert to type and have recorded a long, self-indulgent episode. We reflect on our show, respond to feedback, and wonder about law and legal academia. Also Joe’s travels and nonsense. Feedback includes the other side of the expedite problem, a morality quiz for Joe, the proper playback speed for this show, political processes in arrest and indictment, professionalism norms and racism, SSRN’s purchase by Elsevier, more on the Bluebook and its connection with the problems of legal knowledge creation, and what our jobs are and whether we should keep doing this show. This show’s links: Christian Turner, Podcasts Oral Argument 0: Who Is Your Hero? Flyover Country Oral Argument 96: Students as Means Alvin Roth, Who Gets What - And Why Leegin Creative Leather Products v. PSKS; Klor’s v. Broadway-Hale Stores Oral Argument 99: Power (guest Lisa Heinzerling); Richard Posner, The Incoherence of Antonin Scalia On the bar exam: Oral Argument 61: Minimum Competence (guest Derek Muller); Oral Argument 62: Viewer Mail; Virginia Bar, Mandatory Dress Code Oral Argument 98: T3 Jedi (guests Jeremy Kessler and David Pozen) Michael Jensen's announcement of the sale of SSRN to Elsevier John Dupuis, Elsevier Buys SSRN: Another Sideshow or the Main Event? Paul Gowder, SSRN Has Been Captured by the Enemy of Open Knowledge Zenodo About arXiv Oral Argument 91: Baby Blue (guest Chris Sprigman) Oral Argument 12: Heart of Darkness

Join me live Wednesday night as I have the conclusion of my interview with Paul Gowder the webmaster of PowWows.com.  In this episode Paul and I take a trip down memory lane and tell some stories of our days getting the patch bug as fresh Ordeal members in the Order of the Arrow.  Some fo the stories might make you cringe both from the bad trades we made and the characters we met along the way.  I will have Paul live on the air and I will invite callers to get on and ask questions or comment.  Find more Scouting memorabilia content and all of my podcasts at http://www.scoutpatchcollectors.com.

I've got Paul Gowder on this week's show.  Paul is the webmaster of PowWows.com - an incredible web community of Native Americans that numbers 100,000+ strong.  In this show we will talk about how this Eagle Scout and Vigil Honor member of the OA took his passion for N.A. dancing and built a website from scratch in the mid-90s that grew into the giant family of websites that make up the PowWows.com brand today.  The discussion is particularly interesting as we delve into how he grew his site from a Web 1.0 page to a full blown Web 2.0 sensation. Please join us for this interesting interview where we will mix cloth and feathers! I will also bring you a special treat.  In partnership with my YouTube channel I am airing the recording of my 2012 NOAC Trade-O-Ree announcement from Craig Leighty, the President of ISCA.  Craig breaks down all the details on the big show scheduled for July 27-30 at Michigan State.  This audio has been published as a video on my YouTube channel. Find more Scouting memorabilia content and all of my podcasts at http://www.scoutpatchcollectors.com.