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Zach has the honor of welcoming Howard Bryant back to the podcast on this special Saturday episode. He and Howard touch on several elements of our current civil rights protest, and Howard graciously explains why he disagrees with the sentiment that white folks are just now really understanding and seeing the evils of racism. Check the links in the show notes for ways to pledge your support!*This episode features occasional explicit language.*Connect with Howard on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and don't forget to check out his website.Learn more about Howard's latest book, Full Dissidence, by clicking here.Interested in finding out more about Howard's other books? Click here to be redirected to his Amazon page.Donate to Black Lives Matter by clicking here.Split a donation between 70+ community bail funds, mutual aid funds, and racial justice organizers by clicking here.You can pledge your support to a variety of institutions by clicking the following links: Know Your Rights Camp, NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, and Campaign Zero.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and I have my daughter Emory in my lap. Say something, Emory. You gonna say something? No? Okay. And, you know, this is not the norm, right? Like, typically you're gonna listen to See It to Be It with Amy C. Waninger or The Link Up with Latesha with Latesha Byrd. However, as we look at the world around us and the chaos that continues around us--like, we're not teetering towards chaos, we are in a chaotic time. And we see the state by way of their police force abusing everybody. It's a unique time, and so we wanted to make sure today--not Tuesday, but today--that we actually had a really in-depth and frank conversation with someone who understands the concept of dissidence, and that's Howard Bryant. Howard Bryant is a senior contributor and writer for both ESPN and NPR, and he wrote a book titled Full Dissidence, and it tackled the reality of protest, and he really analyzed and assessed Colin Kaepernick's protest and really broke down white power structures that maintain the status quo in spite of dissidence. And, you know, we also talked a little bit about--and you're gonna hear this--the responses of many of these corporations and how authentic they were in actually addressing the problem. And so, you know, one point of feedback, and you'll notice this, is that organizations are going to--and they're doing it now, and they're going to continue [to do it]--to treat racism as this abstract concept, and so it's up to those who are in positions of authority and have courage to speak to tie those words and concepts into tangible actions, right? So it's not enough to say, you know, "We have to do better and be better and treat people better and open our hearts and minds." That's not actually what changes. What changes is actually structures and policies to actually make a difference, right? Enacting pillars or means of accountability and repercussions for bad behavior. That's how you change, and so to all the organizations who are seeking to make these statements, understand, like, we're in a different place, and folks are looking to hold folks accountable in a different way. [laughs] I just saw a Google Sheet that's been going around that actually really starts getting tangible about how authentic some of these folks are when it comes to anti-racism, and, you know, it doesn't just stop out there. It continues within organizations, right? Like, your company does not have this magic barrier that stops racism, and so that's important, and so we talk about that, and I wanted to make sure--because we didn't have a lot of time with Howard Bryant so I didn't have time to do a bunch of intro stuff, we just got right into the questions, so I wanted to make sure to give a little bit of context. I pray that everyone who's hearing this is staying safe. Definitely support everybody protesting. You're seeing on Living Corporate, we are trying to amplify as much as we can. You're gonna see some links to donate to different protestors and bail funds and things of that nature. You're gonna see that in there. My hope and my desire is if you're an aspiring ally and you listen to Living Corporate regularly that you would check those links and donate. You don't have to donate to Living Corporate, just donate. Just click the links. Just please donate to those links. Shout-out to all my people. Love y'all. 'Til next time. Peace.Zach: Howard, welcome back to the show. How are you doing? Howard: I'm good. How are you?Zach: Man... you know. [chuckles]Howard: [chuckles] Staying sane during all of this?Zach: Trying to, trying to, trying to. Look, you know, we had you on not too long ago, and you've seen a lot, I know, in your life in terms of civil struggle. I think I was a kid when the Rodney King riots happened. In your estimation, is this the largest civil rights protest that you've seen in your lifetime?Howard: I don't know. That's a good question, that's a really good question, considering a few things, right? I was, what... Rodney King, I was 22, and that was nowhere near close to this. I mean, that was--that was disbelief followed by sort of [retrenchment?] followed by rage, because let's not forget that Rodney King happened over a year. Because first it was the beating, then there was the trial, you know, and then there was the uprising, and that happened in '92, but Rodney King actually got beaten down in '91. And so there was that, but this is also--then there's also Ferguson, and so what was happening in Ferguson and Baltimore, all of these things were sort of separate. So I think yes, actually when you really think about it in terms of one sort of linear scale moment, yes, this is the biggest reaction, this is the greatest singular reaction that I've ever seen, and I think that it's been a long time coming. I think that there's so many different avenues that you can take when assessing something like this. Obviously if you're Black you're sort of wondering "What took so long?" I think even if you're just an observer you look at it and say, "Okay, why now? Why Minneapolis? Why was this one the one that linked everybody?" All kinds of great questions there, and then I think the other question that you have here too when you look at it is "What is going to come of it?" And happening during a pandemic. I mean, I swear, man, I believe--I woke up the other day wondering if I had, like, fallen down the stairs and been in intensive care and nobody told me. I mean, I woke up--I woke up and had all these messages from all these people, all my white friends. "If there's anything I can do." I'm like, "What happened?" Then I get another one going, "Oh, I'm so worried about you right now." I'm like, "What happened?" I'm checking my phone, I'm checking the news. I'm like, "What happened? Why is everybody texting me making sure I'm okay?" Then I check my email. "Just really worried, you know, about you and yours, and anything I can do," I'm like... "What happened?" And now you're recognizing that "Oh, they're getting it now. This one got to them." And I'm not even trying to be funny. I literally had no idea why I was getting all these messages, because for us this is normal. This was like, "Okay, this is one of many."Zach: Exactly, right? And I saw you tweeted about this, and I've actually talked to my colleagues about this too, but there seems to be, like, this large sentiment that white folks are just now really understanding and seeing the evils of racism, and, like, what do you make of that? What do you make of this phenomenon?Howard: Yeah, I don't make any--I don't believe that for a minute. I think it's something totally different, and I think that we're in the middle of... I don't know if you're an Alfred Hitchcock fan or not, but Hitchcock mastered the art form of the MacGuffin, and the MacGuffin was essentially the red herring. It was the thing that made you think the plot was, but it wasn't. Like, if you're watching--like, if you watch Psycho it's like, "Okay, it wasn't about the $40,000 he stole after all, was it? It wasn't that. It was this." I don't believe that I'm actually gonna say this, but I'm gonna say this, and I was talking to Roland Martin about this the other day. I really believe that racism in some ways is a bit of misdirection, [that?] racism is not the issue. The issue is policing. The issue I think white people are tired. I think the country's tired. I think after three and a half years of this administration and this buildup, I think that people are recognizing there's no way out, and I think that if you combine that with a pandemic where everybody's been in the house for three months, I think things are starting to--I think it's sort of, like, a perfect storm in a lot of ways, and I think that the visceral nature of that killing... I think Eric Garner was one thing, and I think Eric Garner was every bit the same type of killing that this one was, but I think Eric Garner happened in such a flurry that I don't think that people paid as close attention because Eric Garner and Ferguson were right next to each other, and I think that there was still enough misdirection--and I also think there was something else, and I think that there was a feeling too that there was going to be some form of accountability because you had Barack Obama in the White House and he was talking about accountability and talking about [?], and so there was this feeling that maybe the system was actually going to maybe kind of do something down the line, but here with this administration, I think they've made it very, very clear that this is the norm, and watching that murder and having it be a physical murder--it wasn't that he got shot or anything, you literally put your knee on the neck of somebody while he was held down, you know, apprehended by three other officers. There was no reason for it. It resonated. I think people saw it because their lives have shut down. I think it's easier to ignore this stuff when your life is moving on. You, like, take a little look and you keep going, but everybody's been stuck in the house, so everybody's been paying--I think people paid much more attention to this because they didn't have anything else necessarily, because it feels like the country is falling apart, right? I mean, it already feels like, "All right, we're talking about the economy and everybody's losing their jobs and you have 40 million people out there on unemployment AND you're in the house watching videos all day in-between Zoom chats." All you're doing is you're online. So something about it hit in a way that it didn't hit in other ways, and then on top of that the marshal response is very different, where you have a bunch of white kids out there, this looks like--I mean, so when you say "my lifetime," technically my lifetime? No, because I was born in 1968. So this feels like '68 in terms of when you see a whole bunch of anti-war people and, you know, when you see white people--when you see white people getting the shit beat out of them by police, you know that something's happening.Zach: They getting whooped out here.Howard: Exactly, and they're out front. And I think there's something else too worth paying attention to, and that is this may be a delayed sort of effect of the last 12 years. I think that if the 2008 election was your first election, you were 18 years old, you're 30 years old now, and in 2008 you had a belief that this was gonna be different. Not just black people, but everybody on that side had a belief that that election was finally going to turn a corner and that these corners were going to keep being turned, and they're not, and now you see this frustration. And on top of that, that generation, that generation believed. I mean, we talked about this last time. The thing that I was really worried about, I was worried about it for black people, I'm now somewhat worried about it for white people in a lot of ways, is that they believed in 2008, that this country was free and that all you had to do was break that logjam, and I think that logjam, first you break it with Obama, but then after that you break it with his reelection. So you think, "Okay, maybe we normalized this idea that anybody can be president," then it's been backed up with nothing but retrenchment. You know, 1. you look at how Hillary lost, 2. you look at how Brett Cavanaugh got to the Supreme Court, 3. you look at how Elizabeth Warren was essentially humiliated, even though she was clearly one of the smartest if not the smartest candidate who was running for office. So now you have these white people, and white women in some ways especially, finally realizing what it's like to get punched in the face politically, you know? Where you finally start to realize "Oh, we're getting it too," and if you start to add up this accumulation on top of an administration that has essentially been cracking down, whether you're talking about immigration, you're talking about--it's all of these things together, and then you see this black man getting killed in essentially slow-motion for 8 minutes and people are like, "Enough," and then the dam breaks. And it's an election year as well. So I think there are so many things that are happening. You know, and this is how it usually works, right? And how it usually works is that it's all the things. It's never "the one thing," it's all the things combined that create the breaking point, and the Trump reaction to the breaking point, to essentially build a fortress around the White House, to have prison guards who are unidentified out in the streets policing D.C., to essentially unleash police on everyday citizens, you know, to do that, to have them fire into crowds of white people... this feels like dystopia. It's not like, "Oh, we're nearing chaos." No, we are in chaos right now. We're in it.Zach: I want to pivot a little bit and talk about some of the responses, like, that we're seeing from these major brands, and I'd like to stick to sports [chuckles] for a second. Is there any bigger example of cognitive dissonance than Washington making statements or [?]?Howard: Oh, and the Chicago Blackhawks or the Braves? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, you know, but once again, people talk all the time about weaponizing your politics, right? And usually when they talk about these types of weaponizings they talk about political correctness or they talk about virtue signaling or they use all of these very insulting terms to essentially ridicule people of color or people who are gay or Black people or whoever about their identity choices, identity politics. You hear all of these different insulting terms, right? There's no greater example of political correctness than the National Football League acting like they care about this. All they're trying to do is send a message that they're on the right side of this when their history shows 100% they are not on the right side of this. They're on the opposite side of this. And the Washington Redskins and the Chicago Blackhawks and the Atlanta Braves and the Cleveland Indians and all of these teams with their racist logos are gonna say that they care about this, that they actually care? And all of these teams, every team in the National Football League who essentially took Colin Kaepernick and ruined his career, they took his career from him, are now going to say that they're in support of Black people? But if you notice, it's a very delicate dance because they don't want to mention the word "police." Zach: I was just about to say it's interesting to see that machine coming together, right? Like, they'll talk about [?] "Racism does not align with our values," [but] they don't talk about the police brutality. Mainstream media isn't talking about widespread police abuse.Howard: Well, that's what I mean about racism in its own way being a red herring. It's a MacGuffin. The goal here is not to eliminate racism. That's not the goal, right? The goal is for the system that you tell us to trust to do its job and arrest those four cops and prosecute them and have the juries out there recognize that crimes were committed and convicting them and of course putting them in jail, and on top of that we're forming laws that give police this wide latitude to do these things in the first place. But if you focus on racism, you don't have to change anything. You don't have to do anything. So you concentrate--so all we've been seeing here is "Oh, we've gotta--oh, Black Lives Matter, and, you know, we have to be better and be kinder to people, and we need to--you know, racism is the pandemic, it's the second pandemic." I don't care about any of this. What I care about, I care about the actual concrete structures changing, and they're acting like this, and what they're doing is that they're selling this to the public to make it sound like there's nothing they can do. They could go back to session right now and change the damn laws. That's what they can do. And when you think about on the other side, right, when there is a scourge that they feel is affecting society and affecting crime and everything else, all of a sudden there's plenty of concrete steps when it comes to black people. When they find black people as a scourge, all of a sudden you've got all kinds of tangible, concrete resources and solutions. You've got tougher laws. You build more jails. You put more cops on the street. You have more resources. You have longer prison sentences. Suddenly the entire machine actually works with concrete steps. But when you're asking white people to hold police accountable, it's "Let's abolish racism. Let's be nicer to each other. Let's one day open our hearts and be the society we say we want to be." No. No. You guys go to session and you take those cops and you put them in jail. Let's have a little conversation about one other thing, right? Fear. Let's talk about fear for just a minute, right? One of the reasons that you don't walk into an office and you look at your female coworker and you say, "Nice rack," or you say, "Nice ass," or you make some comment on her, right, you don't do that. Not anymore you don't. Why don't you do that? It's not because the minute you walked into that building suddenly your heart opened up and suddenly you were a nicer person and you weren't a frat boy misogynist asshole anymore. It meant that when you walked in that building you knew the fear of what was gonna happen to you if you talked to your coworkers by that. So what we're really talking about is you know damn well you're not a nicer person. You just know not to talk like that 'cause you know you're gonna lose your career.Zach: There's consequences and repercussions to that, absolutely.Howard: Right, there's consequences and repercussions to that. So why doesn't that get applied to policing? That you are going to lose everything if you act like this. If you changed the laws and you changed the cultural attitudes and said, "Listen, if you do what you guys did to George Floyd, your careers are over, we take your pensions, you are prohibited from working in this field for the rest of your lives," it would change. And on top of that, and to you police departments, these civil settlements that we have to pay that are in the billions, they're coming out of your budgets and your pensions. You would see a behavioral change overnight. "And if we catch you on video punching some teenager who's already in handcuffs, you're done," and it's an immediate felony charge, and all of a sudden if you start applying three strikes to the police the same way you apply three strikes to some dude buying a dimebag, all of a sudden you would see change, but instead what you're seeing is "Oh, well, open your hearts and let's be kind," and they're using racism and the utopian society as some sort of goal when actually none of this would have happened if you had arrested those guys and put them in jail the minute it happened.Zach: 100%. You're absolutely right, right? And I think it's actually happening also in the corporate space too, you know, and I want to talk about dissidence, and I know we have a little bit of time left, but I want to get to this. So the last time we spoke about, you know, we talked about the concept of full dissidence, and it's interesting because I think Black professionals across the industry in North America that I've definitely seen, they're seeing these companies treat race as an abstract, and they themselves, similar to how you're saying about, you know, the policing system and how there are things that we can tangibly change, they too are seeing how things can be tangibly changed. I'm curious though, before we get even into work, what are your thoughts about the video that just dropped from the NFL players. Is that an example of the dissidence that you're speaking about?Howard: Partially. It's on its way. It's on its way, and what I like about that is I feel like they're recognizing that you have a responsibility here. And let's face it, the NFL opened up the door here. They all did. Hollywood did, sports did, everybody did, and now the question's gonna be "Are you gonna walk the walk? What are you gonna do?" And now people want to see what you're gonna do. So if you're the NFL, are you gonna put out 33 of these statements, 32 teams and one league all putting out statements, and then blackball a guy? Well, what good is the statement? Are you going to put out all of these statements about how much you're down with Black people and then prohibit them from expressing themselves? Are you going to do this and, at the same time, make everybody celebrate police? And how are you going to celebrate police and military when you have the police knocking down 75-year-old men and you have the National Guard pointing weapons at its own citizens?Zach: And killing folks.Howard: And killing folks. Are you able to do that? You aren't going to be able to do that anymore. So I like what the players are doing. I also feel like the larger unspoken part of all of this is also the idea that your white fans are more important than your black fans. Because let's face it, if you had respect for your black fans, you wouldn't have done that to Colin Kaepernick because most black fans supported Colin Kaepernick. So what you were really doing was you were sending the message to your white fanbase saying, "We got this," right? And I understand it at some level. I understand it at a fear level, the fear level being, "Well, listen, this is our business model, and if people abandon our business model what are we gonna do?" But then, you know, it's fear versus courage. Do you have courage to also say to those people, "Listen, A. it's a free country, this is his protest, B. he's right, we have issues and we need to fix them, and C. in a sort of way, I dare you to leave. You ain't going nowhere. You're football fans. You love this sport, you love this game. Are you really going to tell us that you're no longer gonna watch the National Football League because one guy on a team you don't even follow is taking a knee about an issue that he cares about?" But that's really not the issue. The issue is that what he did inflamed all of them, the people who run the game. He offended their politics, and he forced a reckoning that you're seeing right now with the Saquon Barkley video that those guys did, and interesting respect seeing Pat Mahomes on there because, you know, for lots of reasons. You know, I mean, 1. people have been talking about the biracial element of this, you know, where does this leave the biracial kids? Well, Pat Mahomes told you. "I'm Black. That's where it leaves me." And it also leaves you somewhere else. When the superstars get involved things change, and the superstars have a quarterback, and Pat Mahomes is a superstar quarterback.Zach: Right, arguably the best quarterback in the league right now.Howard: Arguably the best quarterback in football, and if he's gonna be the guy, then all of a sudden the whole game changes. Zach: Right. So let me wrap up on this one. You know, the last time you were here, you called out how a lot of this diversity and inclusion, corporatized stuff, is actually anti-Black, and I think we're seeing, like, a watershed moment right now where these organizations and this industry that has largely been focused on white women, if queer identities white queer identities, is now scrambling to hire consultants and create new programs and create new statements to really address their actual black employees, and I'm curious to know, what do you predict is going to happen, and where do you see this ending now that we're in a situation where corporations and businesses are focused to actually talk about blackness explicitly?Howard: Well, I'm not willing to go there yet, and I'm not willing to go there yet for a few reasons. One, it's too new, because I think everybody right now is just in damage control mode. That's what I think, so that's my first reaction is "I'm gonna wait and see. Let's play this out." What's gonna happen two, three, four months from now? The world has been moving so quickly that this--who knew that a global pandemic was actually going to be second on the news items now to something else? You never know what's coming. And to me, I need to wait and see what they do with it, because right now the first thing that these guys are thinking about is putting out the fire, and once they put out the fire, are they going to go back to their regularly scheduled racism? And are they going to go back to the old way that they do things? Look, the bottom line with everything corporate to me, if you want to talk about diversity and inclusion and if you want to talk about advancement and if you want to talk about all of the different ways that the corporate world can be a hostile environment or it can be an encouraging one, to me it's usually been hostile because I think that people in these industries have always wanted diversity of color without diversity of thought. The real question to me when I think about the corporate world has always been this - "Are you grooming me to replace you?" That's the question. "Are you grooming me to be the face of your company? Are you grooming me to be the head of your corporation? Because if you are not, then what you're really saying is I will always have limitations and that you're always going to be scrambling to mollify whatever crisis we have in the day, that whatever the crisis [?] we're gonna find some way to calm it down and then go back to what we usually do." If you are at a point one day where these corporations look at you and they say, "Hey, it's okay to have two of our top three officers be Black, and one of them is the CEO and one of them's the CFO, and we're good," instead of having your top Black officer always be corporate comm. If that's the case, then maybe you'll see some serious change, but to me the real issue has always been the actual limitations. When you look at the--you know, I talk about big government, and you think about advancement and the rise of the black middle class and the destruction of the black middle class, you're usually talking about government. You're not talking about corporations. You're talking about the post office and you're talking about civil service jobs and you're talking about--those are the jobs that built the middle class. Corporations generally still do not hire black people in great enough numbers where you're not relying on the government, you know? When black wealth starts to decline, usually it comes from the shrinking of government, of government jobs. So to me, when you start to see, if you ever start to see, a movement or a shift in those numbers where you have corporations who are willing to groom African-Americans to be real players in their industries, when you start to see that, then you'll start to see change, and then I'll look at it and say, "Hey, this is different," but until then I'm gonna take a wait and see. And then also there's one other thing to consider about that too. We don't even know what the world is gonna look like, right? I mean, Black people right now are in the middle of this because of what's happening in Minneapolis and around the country, but let's not forget, we are still in the middle of a pandemic, and we are still--we're only in the first wave of that pandemic, because when flu season hits we may be shutdown again. So we still need to take a long look at the larger picture of what's happening, but as of today, the corporations have certainly put themselves in the position where it is appropriate to ask them if they're going to walk the walk.Zach: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for listening to Living Corporate. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Howard Bryant, ESPN senior writer and contributor and NPR writer and contributor as well. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach has the honor of having a conversation with Dr. Erin L. Thomas, Head of Diversity, Inclusion & Belonging at Upwork, about organizational equity during the COVID-19 pandemic. She graciously shares some advice regarding what organizations can do during this time to at the very least reduce harm for their black and brown employees and talks a bit about how her perspective and focuses at work have shifted as this pandemic has continued. Check the links in the show notes to connect with Dr. Thomas!Link up with Dr. Thomas on Twitter! She's also on LinkedIn. Links in order:https://bit.ly/3c0BXKhhttps://bit.ly/3c7qhFELearn more about Upwork on their website. You can view their open positions by clicking here. Links in order:https://bit.ly/2TEC8Vnhttps://bit.ly/2A5X00WFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, everybody? It's Zach, and you know what? I'ma just go ahead and say it right now. It's also Emory. Emory, say something. [Emory breathes] That's just her breathing. Emory is, at the time of this recording, six weeks old. So we're here because I'm on daddy duty and my wife has to get some sleep. That's right. Husbands, help your wives, or partners rather, excuse me - not to be overly gendered on a podcast all focused on inclusion, equity and diversity. Help your partners, you know what I'm saying? Everybody, you know, they--one person can't do it all. Sometimes you gotta step in, and this podcast is great, and I love y'all, but of course I love my daughter the most. Well, I love my wife also. Let me not do any type of weird hierarchy right now live, like, a live-streaming conscience of thought on the podcast, but the point is you have responsibilities. There are things that take precedent. And look, we're in a new normal, so I'm just here. Where was I? Right, Living Corporate. So look, Living Corporate amplifies and centers black and brown voices at work. Why do I say black and brown and not, like, people of color? Because I want to be very explicit, we want to be very explicit, with what our mission is. So we aim to center and amplify black and brown identities, marginalized folks, folks on the periphery, in the workplace, and we do that how? We do that by having real talk in a corporate world. Now how do we do that? We do that by interviewing incredible leaders cut from all type of cloth. And, you know, we've had executives. We've had professors, entrepreneurs, public servants, activists, civil leaders, elected officials. We've had all types of people, artists, and today is no different. Today we have Dr. Erin L. Thomas. Dr. Thomas is the head of diversity, inclusion and belonging at Upwork where she leads diversity, inclusion and belonging, or DIBs. She leads the strategy implementation and coaching for all of Upwork. Prior to Upwork though, Dr. Thomas was a managing director at Paradigm, a diversity and inclusion strategy firm where she partnered with companies to embed DIBs into organizations through culture transformation and people development. Prior to Paradigm, Erin held positions at Grant Thornton LLP, Argonne National Laboratory developing D&I strategies, programming and metrics. Her work has been featured in Fast Company and the New York Times and recognized by Forbes, Human Rights Campaign, the National Association for Female Executives and the Equal Opportunity Magazine. She holds a PhD in social psychology, a Master of Philosophy in social psychology; a Master of Science in social psychology; and a Bachelor of Arts in psychology and international studies from Yale University. She is accredited, y'all. Okay? Don't question us, okay? We're coming to y'all. We bring y'all heat rock every single week, and the heat rock we bring is because we have guests that have heat rock. I'ma say heat rock again just so y'all get the point. Yes, I'm turnt up. Yes, it's a Tuesday. Who cares? Erin, what's up? Welcome to the show. How are you doing?Erin: I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me. Hi, little baby Emory. I am so excited to be here, and I want to give you a number. So I'm really into, during COVID times, anchoring, you know, "How are you doing?" on a scale. 1 is, you know, "We've got to get out of here and get some more support." Like, "We're not doing well." 10 is, you know, "COVID what? COVID who?" But I think, like, if you're a 10, you also probably need some external support. Zach: Facts. [laughs]Erin: And I think today I am... I'm, like, a 7, 8. I'm very excited to be chatting with you. What's your number?Zach: That's a really good question. You know, I don't know. So it's interesting because your scale, I don't know how it accounts for, like, other things, right? So, like, I'm also here with, like, a six-week-old baby. So maybe I'm, like, a--so, like, coronavirus is not, like, at the top of my mind because I'm trying to focus on keeping this thing that looks like me alive. Maybe I'm, like, a--I'd probably say I'm, like, a 7, 8. Like, I'm pretty good. I'm happy, right? Like, I mean, life is good. The new Drake album--well, not the album, but a little collection of loosies came out recently that was very good, that I enjoyed. You know, my favorite shows are still coming on. I've caught up on some anime. So I'm keeping myself well-distracted.Erin: [laughs] That's good. I think distracted is good. I think--I don't know, I think in the beginning days of all of this it felt, for me at least, a little weird to compartmentalize, or I felt a little guilty, but I actually think that's incredibly healthy, you know, to find moments of just pleasure and delight. That's all we got, right? That's all we got.Zach: I mean, this--the reality is that before this pandemic, like, I was already a homebody. Now, people at work--like, people who know me from work would--they may not know that, because, like, in person, like, I'm a fairly gregarious guy. But, like, you know, people are complex, right? I think, like, we create a lot of these terms and things that aren't really academic or scientific just to kind of better compartmentalize people, like, "You're an extrovert, you're an introvert." It's like, "I mean, I enjoy people, but I also enjoy being alone." Like, I enjoy being at home, being with my wife and now my kid. Like, I'm fine with that. But I'm glad, I'm glad that you're excited. I'm excited and in a good place as well. You know, this would be interesting to do again, like, if our numbers were wildly different, right? So, like, you're a 7, 8, I'm a 7, 8, but if I was, like, a 2, then, like, I wonder how the dynamics of this discussion would look, especially considering what we're talking about.Dr. Thomas: Yeah. I mean, I think then--and this has happened to me at work, right? Like, I come in low and someone else is high or vice versa. I think then that's the--I mean, that's the point of it, right? It's a moment of pause to figure out what do you need to put aside or do you need to get off this call or how can I support you and give that person who's lower an opportunity to either just share or not or articulate more. I just think it's a great window into "How can we work together towards whatever it is that we need to achieve?" And if now's not the time, fair. You know? We gotta go and come back together when we're both in the right space. I think that happens all the time, we just don't often put numbers to it, right?Zach: I agree, I agree. So look, that actually is a really good segue for us to get into this. Like, this pandemic, it continues to expose and exacerbate all types of inequities, from social to governmental and of course workplace, just all across the board, and I'll tell you, frankly it just feels overwhelming for me to think about holistically, let alone try to address, and so I'm really curious about just, like, considering your role with Upwork, I'd love to hear how your perspective and focuses have shifted as this pandemic has continued, and considering your level within Upwork and, like, the organizational power that you wield by way of your level, I'd love to hear about how power and influence has shaped your praxis.Dr. Thomas: Yeah. Whoo, this could take the whole hour, which, you know, happy, happy to unpack it for that long, 'cause it's deep. It's deep and very real. Like, the quickest answer for me is not that much has actually changed about the objectives that we set out to achieve for this year. How we go about them certainly has had to stay agile and nimble, but in the work that I do that's always the case. I always like to be super responsive to context and not get so [prescriptive?] about how we execute but to kind of keep our eyes on the prize, and so from my personal vantage point, I--especially during the beginning days of this--have never felt more critical than I do right now. You know, I think there's so many external conversations and great thought leaders who have articulated this better, what this crisis has really done, like most crises, is magnify fractures, gaps, inequities, that already existed, and so I've used this really as an opening to accelerate my platform and the work that I'm doing for marginalized folks at our company. So just to dig into it, you know, I did a couple of tactical things once it became clear to me that, you know, "This is serious. This is not the flu. This is gonna change everyone's lives forever," and I don't think that's an overstatement. So once that reality sort of set in, the first thing I did was I revisited these operating principles that I had crafted when I started at Upwork. So I joined the company in December of 2019. I'm only about weeks in, and there's been a lot of change since then, internally and obviously externally, but as a team of one and as the first DIB leader in our organization, I thought it was really important for me to just get anchored on what [?] and, you know, use that decision framework for really [advertising?] how I [fell?] in my role. I think, especially when a role like this is new or especially when someone comes in with a multi-disciplinary background [or] a very strategic lens, folks don't necessarily know what the role is and they kind of fill in their own blanks and make their own stories. So that was important to me, and I revisited those once we started quarantining just to make sure that they were evergreen and [stood up?] in this crisis, and they did, thankfully, and I can put [?] on my name. There's only four, and everything we do is, you know, it's systemic, so #1 is account for the systems and structures we're operating in, and that's, you know, systems and structures within our company and certainly externally as well. So that's #1, definitely holds true today. #2 is everything we do is tailored to the most specific population or the most specific point in the employee experience as possible, and so it kind of goes back to how you introduce the podcast, which is it's basically about centering. We have to get specific. We have to get articulate and discrete about what problem we're trying to solve or what opportunity we're trying to seize, and certainly during public times that's been really critical, and I think that principle holds up. The third is active. So I really wanted to mark that for myself and for others. You know, there's no passive way to do this work. Like, we're gonna have to change some things, and, you know, I think that's intuitive, but also [?] to declare. And then the fourth thing which is super critical for me, and this is where I see a lot of DIBs or DEI, whatever acronym you want to use, professionals flounder a little bit, is being pragmatic and being compelling and cohesive and telling, you know, one story that folks can get behind that also makes sense in the context of the day-to-day decisions and work that they're doing, and I think too often DIBs work kind of exists in a bit of a vacuum, right? It's a little bit of a tag-along or an extra-curricular, and I think that's the piece, you know, during corona times, that I've had to really get critical, even more so with myself, about "[?]," right? Like, do people have the capacity for this new thing or this new structure or this new effort and just really kind of giving grace to the folks who have to carry forward on the strategies, who have to, you know, change their behaviors, because it's a lot to ask even in the best of times, and I want to push and, again, lean into this comfort, but also be gracious with the fact that folks are dealing with a lot right now. So that's one of the things I did, was just, like, double-check on the way that we're going about this work. So relevant during this time. Another thing was just re-prioritizing some of those actual objectives. There were just, like, a couple that, even before corona, were nicer to have, but now it's clear that this is not the year to be working on the frills. It's really--we gotta stick to the essentials in terms of our strategic goals. And then the last thing I'll quickly say is I actually really leveraged the fact that it seems like most folks are becoming kind of armchair experts in academiology these days, right? Like, I'm learning more, more about viruses and how they spread, and I think there's some really interesting--and if I thought about it hard enough there could be a poem out of this, but, you know, I think there's some really interesting overlays between what we're seeing with the virus [Emory makes some noise] and how I think about people and the fact that--hey, Emory! The fact that we are all connected, we're all inter-dependent, and we need to center the most vulnerable. I think, as a society, that's becoming more and more clear, just with the true facts that are coming out from COVID, but it also I think has been what activists and DIBs practitioners have been saying for, you know, decades, and so I think, at least in my company, it sort of seems like there's this window of opportunity to seize on this understanding of centering and equity and disproportionate impact that folks are getting externally and [?] that same framework and understanding through the work that I do internally. I just think folks are grasping it a little bit more easily now than they might have been before this. So that, for me, has been exciting.Zach: That's awesome. And yes, hello, Emory. But no, you're absolutely right. [laughs] You know, what I find curious about this time, or intriguing even, is that because of the real impacts that this pandemic is having with folks that look like us and that don't look like us and the frustrations that come along with that, it's creating avenues for people to have even more frank conversations and to really kind of, like, get past some of the jargon and, like, these super long monologues about whatever and really get into, "No, how can we actually create impact and change and help? Because there are people who actively need help," and I think that's--and I try to be, like, a silver lining type of person, so, like, that's--so I would say that is something that is a positive out of all of this. I do think also, to your point around DEI practitioners, I do think that there's a bit of a gap when it comes to, "Okay, how do we transition from--" And I've talked about this with some other folks in the past. I think we're now doing a decent job of, like, talking about the historicity of oppression, or we'll talk about systemic inequities in, like, these very, like, high level systems that almost seem--like, we speak about them almost, like, in the abstract, right? So we'll say, like, "Well, you know, black men, they have disproportionate--they're targeted by police and da-da-da," and it's like, "Okay, that's true," and I'm not being dismissive of that. "Let's talk a little bit more about the systemic inequities in your workplace though," right? Like, "How can we transition these conversations to be a bit more practical and targeted to the reality of your employees?" And, like, that's--and I get why, you know, there's a variety of reasons why we don't necessarily have those conversations when I don't think we necessarily know how, but then two, like, it's increasingly uncomfortable to have conversations about actual power in your workplace, because then we start looking at individuals, right?Dr. Thomas: Yeah. I mean, it's hard, or maybe impossible, not to take, you know, a conversation about power and privilege personally, but at the same time I think where I've seen the most effective work, where I've done the most effective work, is where we actually sort of meet somewhere in the middle. It's about what roles or positions do we hold, how are those products of a greater societal system, and given the seat we're in--it's not really about us. I think it's really about the position. But given that we fill it, you know, what is our responsibility? To disrupt things that before now we weren't aware, you know, we were products of, or now that we are we realize we have a bit of an urgency to leave a legacy or leave things better than where we found them, and I think that's where the activation can happen. That's where we can get [?] without guilting people, right? Without making them defensive. I think it's just the reality of, "Oh, this is all by design, and we're sort of products of this greater architecture. So now what are we gonna do about it?" And if we're not gonna do anything, that's fine too, but then we should stop talking about it. Right? So, like, that's fine. I don't--[laughs] I want to be clear that I don't judge or begrudge that. It's fine. You know, companies and leaders can make those choices, but then stop talking about it. That's where--right?Zach: Yes. That's my rub too. At a certain point it's like, "Look, I'm tired of us talking about diversity being our strength and there not being anybody that looks like me that actually has any type of authority or power." You know, "I'm tired of us always--" Like, not shoehorning in, because no disrespect. We talk about gender in these very, like, binary, exclusionary ways without being intersectional at all with race or sexual identity. We talk about sexual identity in these binary ways without including race. We ignore any race trans identities, particularly trans black female identities. So, like, if we're gonna do this, let's do it. If we're not gonna do it, let's not. It's 2020. Rona or no rona, let's just--let's just be honest. [both laugh]Dr. Thomas: I agree. I mean, you know, that's where folks get disillusioned. That's where, you know, when the word doesn't match the deed, it reads as inauthentic because it frankly is, and I think most companies or leaders within them would be honestly better served to talk a little less about diversity, about inclusion, about equity, [then keep on?], or to raise--you know, raise the bar for themselves, but this weird in-between is just not working, right? It's not working. It's frustrating the folks who are most impacted. And then we see the results, which is very minimal quantitative gains when it comes to actual representation within the workforce. So these things all [?] together. They all relate, so yeah.Zach: They do. Now this is me going off the chart, but it just popped in my--not popped in my head, 'cause I think about it a lot, but we didn't talk about it for this interview. We gotta have you back, Erin, 'cause I really want to talk about in group, out group dynamics and the pressures that marginalized people in positions of authority have to, like, toe the line in that regard or how much they push against to then create inclusive workplaces for people who look like them. 'Cause, like--no, and I recognize that's a big topic, but, like, I just want to say this 'cause it's on the top of my heart and my mind. Like, I've noticed--and I've had these conversations, like, with black folks, like, off the record, right? So, like, in consulting, you know, there's all these different tracks of leadership, and, you know, the highest up is typically managing director or partner, and I've talked to some black partners who I really respect and everything, and I'm like, "Look, how many of you do you meet?" 'Cause the people that I talk to, like, they're with it. Like, they're conscious. They genuinely care. They try to use their access, power and privilege, relative power and privilege, to help other folks that look like them--and I'm talking, like, two people, right? [both laugh] And I asked them like, "Yo, what's going on? Like, why are the rest of y'all a bunch of Clarence Thomases up here? Like, what is this?" And so we had this whole frank discussion about it, but I really want to have you back on, because, like--I don't know. I feel like you and I could have that conversation, but I want to have it because, like--and I had this very... it was not uncomfortable. Wait, let's pause. Everybody stop, everybody. Y'all should know by now. This is, like--we're a couple hundred episodes in, hundreds of episodes in actually of Living Corporate. Y'all know I enjoy awkward conversations, so this exchange I'm about to explain to y'all was not awkward for me. It was awkward for them, okay? It was not awkward for me. So, you know, I had this conversation, and--[Emory makes noise] Oh, goodness, my daughter is loud. Hey, y'all. Y'all, check it out. Y'all hear these vocals by Emory. Don't play. No labels, but, you know, we'll make a SoundCloud soon. So anyway, I was talking to this person and I was like, "Look, the reality is the folks in power only let a certain amount of us in these spaces, okay, and when you see us in these spaces high up, like, to find somebody that looks like us in those spaces who genuinely care, who are not closing doors behind and who are speaking truth to power--" Again, I'm not asking you to come show up in a Kunta Kinte shirt. I'm just saying if you could just--[Dr. Thomas laughs] Okay? If you could just, you know, act like you're black, act like you recognize, you know, experiences. To find those types of people, it's like finding a unicorn with gold teeth, you know what I mean? It's crazy. Dr. Thomas: Yeah, and it's hard for me to speak to personally simply because my role is diversity, right? [both laugh] I'm not here as a [?] professional, I am a diversity expert and researcher. So that's, I guess, a privilege if you will that I hold as a leader in my company, and I recognize that. It was true in my last role too. I was in a consulting firm, and I was on the leadership team, but we were a diversity consulting firm, right? And so even in there you see some of that where, yeah, I had to really reconcile with the fact that I was doing this work and certainly had more latitude to, you know, speak that truth to power than I would if I were in another profession, and at the same time even I find myself vigilant, of course, and protective, of course, of how much is too much, you know? Where do I strike that balance of advocating in ways that people can hear versus that active, you know, operating principle that I called out earlier, you know, [?] folks that healthy discomfort. It's tough. It's a whole level of calculus that I have become I think decent at. I think also though I always--and, you know, we should talk about this another time because we can go real deep into this, right? I always view this dance of, like, on the one hand, any professional--especially any leader--is context switching and code switching all the time, right? Like, that is effective leadership, right? That's effective, but yet when you're a person of color, when you are black--which I can speak to--when you're brown, I think it creates some compunction of, like, "How much of this is playing the game that anyone would play and how much of this is selling out?" And I don't have an answer. I think everyone has their own barometer for that, but it's something I challenge myself on all the time. Like, "What of this feels like me and what of this feels like I'm becoming complicit in something that I don't subscribe to?" And, you know, sometimes I can't really codify when I'm feeling uncomfortable, but I know what I'm feeling, and that's when I have to really check myself and really examine if how I'm showing up or what I'm sharing or advocating is really serving my key audience, which is our marginalized folks at our company.Zach: Yo, so thank you for real. Sound Man, put a little round of applause in here for Erin answering this question off the fly, 'cause we did a pre-production. This was not part of the questions, but it was just something on top of my mind. Thank you so much. Now, look, let's get into this though, because we're just now really at the top of the conversation we planned on having. So look, at the time of us recording this, over 32 million folks have applied for unemployment benefits. At the same time, many companies are trying to retain their employees and keep them engaged in new working environments. I mean, there's even a lot of unofficial conversations happening on companies having pressure to not let go of too many minority employees in the name of just optics and potential legal ramifications. I'm curious, can we talk about this dynamic [?] where tensions may be, particularly for black and brown employees.Dr. Thomas: Sure. I mean, when I hear this question I'm really thinking about it as what are black and brown workers maybe thinking, feeling, [?] with individually if they are still employed, and I think I've seen both--at Upwork it's certainly [?] as well, 'cause obviously I consume research, I consume, you know, thought leadership externally, and I think there's a picture that's sort of forming for me in my head, which is there's a range I think of emotional reactions for folks who are still employed, and I think at its best folks are feeling really grateful of course. Right? It's sort of--going back to operating on a scale of 1 to 10, it's, like, yeah, a very compartmentalized 1 to 10, but, like, we're grateful for the blessings we have, and I think certainly that is true for folks who are in jobs with fair pay and fair benefits. They want to give their all to their employers because their circumstances could be so much worse. And I think especially in, you know, people work, in mission-driven organizations and purposeful organizations, that's incredibly true, you know? I'm seeing more and more come out, for instance, among mental health professionals who are burning out 'cause they're just giving it all. And I think, you know, in normal times it's hard to strike that balance of taking care of others versus yourself, and I think especially now, if folks are lucky to still have some semblance of job security, they're giving a lot, and they're very grateful. I think, towards the more extreme ends of this spectrum of reactions, I'm also seeing certainly some guilt, some comparative guilt, you know, around--there are folks out there who are on the front lines, who are essential workers, who have lost their jobs, and so "Maybe I'm not feeling great about what I'm doing or where I am, but, like, how could I complain?" Right? Like, "How can I explain when--maybe things aren't ideal, but I have so much," and so that's where I start to get--yeah, I get a little nervous about that, but I understand it, right? Like, you won't want to rock the boat right now when employment is so precarious. I think there is, you know, on this extreme end of the spectrum, a bit of grief happening, just--obviously black and brown folks are more likely to have people around them succumbing to this virus, falling ill, being unemployed themselves, and so, you know, folks are at work but breathing different losses that some of their counterparts may not be breathing as directly. And then there's backdrop of fear. Like, even if you feel secure in your job for now, this whole situation is obviously unprecedented. We don't know what will happen to the economy, we don't know what will happen to our companies. And again, the research shows that black and brown folks, and women, are the first to get furloughed, to get laid off, to your point, and we know in secure times black and brown folks are more heavily scrutinized, and I think folks who are still working feel a microscope that may or may not be on them, but it's impossible not to be vigilant about if you're gonna make it out of here with the job you went into this crisis with and if that job is actually the right job for you or if you're feeling beholden to, you know, a vulnerable time in your life. I think it's a very confusing time, but it all goes back to what we were talking about earlier, which is that it's just magnifying some of the sentiments that folks are always feeling. I think there's an overlay of, like, true uncertainty that is pressing, but I think folks are really trying to just get through the day, trying to keep the jobs they have, and, you know, trying not to encounter some of the secondary traumas that come when you lose that job, that security that you have in place. So I'm seeing a whole swirl of things, and the way they look to me basically is people are tired. They are exhausted. They are burning out and, you know, I think they're taking care of themselves a little less than they used to because it feels a little risky to do that.Zach: You segued really well into my next question about, like, black and brown employees and their experience, and it's funny because I was talking to a colleague about this, talking to a workplace colleague about, like, my own experiences, and I was telling him about, like, you know, "I've had some stresses because I've had some friends who almost fell victim to COVID-19," and, you know, they recovered, you know, but I also have acquaintances whose family members have passed, right? So you're right, like, what's on my mind and the stresses and the drama is--just what's on my mind is different throughout the day, or maybe it's just a little more real. Let me not say that other folks--'cause there have been white folks dying from the coronavirus too. So it's like, you know, not about trying to dismiss one to uplift the other. It's just like, "Okay, this is real for you, and it's even more real for me." And so I'm curious, like, you know, can we talk a little bit about what organizations can do during this time to at the very least reduce harm for their black and brown employees?Dr. Thomas: For sure. I think, you know, first I want to say 1. thank goodness for your friends who have recovered, and 2. I'm very sorry for the losses that are close to you, and to your point, I'm sorry for that for everybody. This is--you know, the backdrop to all of this is just... it's really hard to fathom honestly. It's hard for me to, like, wrap my head around the devastation this has caused, and it's just--it's so painful, and I'm sorry that everyone is going through this in some way, 'cause everyone is affected and is going to be in some way by the physical toll that this is taking on people. To that point, you know, I think there's a few things that orgs can do kind of from the top down. I think there's also things certainly that any individual colleague or manager can do for the folks around them, but I'll talk about this on a couple of levels. Sidebar, I always think of the Nick Jonas song "Levels" whenever I'm thinking about how to approach this work. Zach: Now, hold on, what is the Nick Jonas song--'cause see, the only song I know by Nick Jonas is that "I still get jealous--" You know what I'm saying? "[continues singing]."Dr. Thomas: It's about--I'm trying to think of how it goes. It's about "love has levels." "Levels, levels." I don't know the words.Zach: Come on, Erin. Come on. I hear you with the vocals.Dr. Thomas: I know. I gotta find it, but I like him, and I know he has a song called Levels, and I always think about it. It's like, "Oh, levels, take me higher--" I don't know. Levels take me higher. I don't know. It's a terrible song.Zach: It's a terrible song? Okay. Did he have a black choir in the background? [both laugh] Yo, when Nick Jonas came out there, boy, he came out there and they was like, "I still get jealoous." I was like, "What is going on? Jesus ain't got nothing to do with this." I mean, he's a jealous guy. Anyway, moving forward... [both laughing] Dr. Thomas: I'm gonna have to find it, I'm gonna have to sing it and just send you a little audio clip, 'cause I can't even remember the tune, 'cause it's not a memorable song. Love you, Nick.Zach: Okay. [laughs]Dr. Thomas: You know? From the top down, companies, and really I'm talking about leaders, people leaders, diversity leaders, can take care to do a few things. One is--and I saw this during the earlier days of people sheltering in place. I think it's leveled out maybe a bit, at least from my vantage point, but in the beginning there was a lot of corporate messaging--and I think you even see this still in commercials--of, you know, "We're all in this together," and on its face, cool, cool, cool. Like, right, you want to build camaraderie, you want to cohere folks around a shared sense of community, but if you beat that drum a little too long, especially within your company, I think it can kind of err to the side of being colorblind, right, and really minimizing the disproportionate strain that there actually is on employees of color and on black and brown folks. So I think striking that balance of certainly we're all in this together, and also there are distinct experiences that we know folks are grappling with. It's an important sort of dual approach to make sure that your folks who are black and brown know that they're seen, know that they're recognized for their unique experiences through this and the unique impacts that they're encountering. So that's one thing, just sort of take that multicultural lens to those company communications that you're sending out. I think another thing is, you know, wherever you can creating space for employees to uncover and share more about their specific experiences. So, you know, we did this back in April at Upwork. We partnered with Michelle Kim, who I know is a friend of the pod.Zach: Come on. What's up, Michelle J. Kim? Shout-out to Awaken Co. What's up? [imitating air horns]Dr. Thomas: [joins in, Zach laughs] She's awesome, and we sort of co-facilitated I think a 75-minute conversation with leaders of our Asian ERG(s)--and this is before the data about [?] were coming out with regards to black and brown folks, and the conversation was mostly around--in terms of the media--anti-Asian bias and discrimination and racism, so we seized on the timeliness of that conversation and built out, you know, a virtual forum for our employees to share what they were concerned about, what they were hearing in their day-to-day lives and interactions, and to scale out from that, from those stories to give more context to, you know, why are we seeing this, what is this. This is not unique to this moment in time. This is, you know, a pattern repeating, and really come from a place of urgency to educate our folks a little bit more about historical context and why it matters now and certainly what they can do to disrupt and call out bias in themselves and discriminations they're seeing externally. A third thing is certainly around mental health and benefits and resources to aid folks, you know, who are experiencing trauma and grief. And I don't think this just has to be if you've lost someone close to me. I think in general folks are really struggling obviously with anxiety and insomnia, and there's data coming in on that, and so making sure that your company has the right level and amount of bereavement and [leave?] policies, but also just coaching and support with your EAP if you have one or your [?] and getting them at least to a basic level [?] of providing that 1:1 support for folks and hopefully referring them out to medical providers if they need, you know, more professional coaching. And then the last thing, you know, is related to what you were saying about terminations and lay-offs and all that. Every company should be auditing the decisions they're making this time when it comes to furloughs and risks, making sure that they're looking at that through an equity lens, making sure that they're not just focusing on people's kind of positions in the company or tenure, because black and brown folks tend to sit lower in the org and tend to be earlier in their tenure, so really taking a performance-based approach to that analysis can be helpful in getting out of that sort of hamster wheel of, you know, first in first out when it comes to black and brown folks. So those are, you know, top-down, structural considerations that companies can be taking every day. I think on the ground, peers and managers can be doing some of what we've already role modeled in this conversation. Check in with people, my goodness. Just think about who you haven't spoken to in a while. Think about who you might normally pass at, you know, the water cooler or the coffee station, and if you haven't chatted with that person 1:1 in a minute, you know, Slack them, ping them, whatever you've got in terms of internal messaging systems, call them, pick up the phone and check in. Just see how people are doing, and make sure you create, you know, space to actually hear their answer and to actually respond. So, you know, as opposed to the normal "How's it going?" Like, really ask the question and really wait for the answer and be with that person with whatever they share, you know? I think it's really about those personal connections that we probably took for granted when we were back in an office setting, for those of us who were in offices, and that are harder to actualize now, right? Like, we're all home. We're all behind screens, and so there is no organic water cooler conversation. That means we have to make a little bit more effort to reach out to folks and to show them that we care about them, that we're connected to them and that we're a resource, or that the company has resources, for them whenever they need.Zach: I love it, I love it. Now, Erin, you know that we're about real talk in a corporate world like I said at the top of the show. For the executive leader to this and perhaps rolling their eyes or maybe, like, speed listening and being like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know this. Yeah, yeah, yeah," like, you know, just kind of being dismissive as to the gravity of this and why this matters. Why should folks have an inclusive and equitable lens during this time, and then what's the potential fallout in your mind if they don't?Dr. Thomas: I have so many reactions to this question. I think, first, if someone's rolling their eyes to this, which... yeah, could be true, I'll just, like, emphatically say that's not my key audience. Like, I'm just not--you know, I'm really not, and I'm just not. That's not my sweet spot. There were times earlier in my career where that was, where I found it fun to really push the business case for equity, business case for diversity. I am not interested in that anymore, and thankfully I'm in an org where I don't have to do that. Like, kudos to those of you who are doing that. Frankly, for me personally, that's ineffective, right? You know, people do not make decisions based on facts or data. So, you know, I could stand here and talk about the research that's been done. You know, Great Place to Work just did a study around [?], right, and they showed that those who focused on inclusion did better during the recession and saw more returns. So, like, I could share all those stats and all that, but it doesn't matter. Like, if you're rolling your eyes, if you are asking why or if, like, it's probably not gonna happen for you. Just call it, you know--because you can Google it, you can ask Siri, you can ask Jeeves, you can do whatever you want to do, but, like--Zach: [laughing] Not ask Jeeves.Dr. Thomas: [laughing] You can go back to Jeeves if you have to, but my point is that this is not how people make decisions. People make decisions emotionally. They do what they want to do and then they rationalize it later. That is a fact. Zach: That is a fact.Dr. Thomas: You know, it is. And that's science. [laughs] And so if you're not in any way emotionally inclined to care, nothing I say, no data point is gonna make you care. So I think that's one thing. Like, I am impatient and frankly, especially with, you know, decades of research that I think has really caught on in industry, we're just past the point of denying the value proposition of diversity. I think it wastes calories. I think it distracts from the meaningful question, which is, like, how we can go about it during this time or, you know, what we should be prioritizing. I think those are fair questions, but if you're, for whatever strange reason, listening to this podcast and rolling your eyes, like, I don't have time for it. I just don't. I don't. And already that was too much time explaining how I don't have time for it. So that's my quick reaction to that. [both laughing] I think those who are kind of, you know, struggling with how to go about this or where to maybe invest less or more, that's incredibly fair. I think that is incredibly challenging. So what I would say there is just--it goes back to what we talking about earlier. I mean, this is life and death, right? It does not get more real in terms of a call to action than this moment in time, and I think every leader should sit themselves down and critically examine what legacy they want to leave, you know? This is the time for companies to demonstrate what living values, living their values actually looks like. It's their time to pressure test, you know, different mantras that companies love to share around, you know, authentic selves at work, or "Bring your whole selves to work," because you saying--it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. You're saying those things... well, here's your moment. Here's your moment to [know?] what it really means, and that's true at the company level, it's true at that personal level. Hopefully you're inclined to want to dig more deeply into what actualizing on your commitments actually could mean right now, and I think that's the place to get really serious about where are the potential gaps between what you're saying and doing. And as we said earlier, you know, if you realize "Huh, even in these most dire circumstances, we're maybe not really ready to make the investment that we might need to actually move the needle or create the environment that our people need." Okay. That's a tough conclusion to come to, but okay.Zach: That's responsible though, right?Dr. Thomas: Right. Yeah. I mean, and then okay, well, then you have to communicate that back, but if you have been talking a game for a while and are realizing you want to step it up, that's amazing, and I think from there what you can be doing is really leveraging external leaders--I mean, there's a lot of information, tools that are free. You could certainly and should be always leveraging your internal employees or workers however they want to be leveraged to help you reveal your blind spots. But this is it. Like, this is the moment, and hopefully orgs will really step it up and leave a footprint that I think can last for generations. You know, what companies do now I think is going to reset how people see them in the public light, how people see them as an employer of choice or not, and so it's a critical kind of come to Jesus moment hopefully for leaders and orgs to double down or to de-emphasize the things that we've been talking about for a while.Zach: Yo. Man, I mean this has just been an incredible conversation. I would be remiss not to drop a Flex bomb right here, and then also some air horns, put 'em in right here. Okay, there we go. Erin, before we let you go--before Emory and I, excuse me, let you go, any parting words or shout-outs? I know you've been dropping wild gems this entire time, but I just want to give you one last--you know, where they can find you, what you're excited about with Upwork, anything. Give you time to plug.Dr. Thomas: Oh, goodness. Okay, I did not prepare for this. I have so many people to thank. I would say find me on Twitter. That's it. Please don't try to find me on LinkedIn. I don't respond on LinkedIn. Real talk. It's just too cluttered. So ErinLThomasPhD is my Twitter handle. I would say check out Upwork. I have been a lot of places. I have led diversity within two other organizations before now. I've been an expert consultant. I've seen a lot of what companies are doing, and I wouldn't be at Upwork if I weren't rabidly passionate about what we're doing and about all of the magic ingredients that attracted me to our company. So I'd love for folks to check us out. Come work with us. We're a great, amazing, purposeful company doing great work, with cool leaders like me, so come on through.Zach: I mean, this is the best ad I could imagine. [both laugh] All right, y'all, you know what it is. We're having real talk in a corporate world. I'm saying it, like, three times this time, but you know we amplify and center marginalized, underappreciated, underrepresented, undersupported, underestimated voices at work, and look, you can check us out anywhere, okay? Look, we're all over Barack Obama's internet. You just Google Living Corporate, okay? We're gonna pop up. We're there, okay? We're all over. Check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, @LivingCorporate on Instagram. Shoot, if you old school and you're like, "Nah, Zach. I gotta go in the browser and type in the domain like a true OG," then I'ma say, "Okay, cool," and I'ma tell you www.living-corporate.com, please say the dash, or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.us, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. We got all of the Living Corporates except livingcorporate.com, so if you type in livingcorporate.com and Living Corporate does not pop up do not be mad at me, 'cause I told you already we don't got that one. We got all the other livingcorporates, or living-corporate.com--please say the dash, all right? You can also email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can also DM us, okay? DMs are wide open. We are not afraid of the random DM. Just hit us up. We'll make sure we hit you back. If you have a listener letter, you know, you could submit it right there. We'll answer it on the show. We got a decent number. We try to get to a critical mass so we can answer a few, and then we kind of make that an episode. Just so y'all you know. It's, like, a peek behind the curtain. Until next time, y'all. This has been Zach, and you've been listenimg to Dr. Erin Thomas of Upwork. Me and Emory are gonna catch y'all later. Emory, you got anything to say? [Emory's silent] Nope? All right, y'all. Peace.

Zach has the honor of speaking to Debra Gore-Mann, president and CEO of The Greenlining Institute, about tackling systemic equity. She graciously shares her unique career journey with us and talks a bit about what it looks like to manage the wide array of philosophies, motivations and personalities she engages with in an effort to shift and create systemic change. Check out the show notes to connect with Debra and for more information on The Greenlining Institute!Connect with Debra on LinkedIn and Instagram.Interested in learning more about The Greenlining Institute? Check out their website.They're also on social media - follow them on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook and Twitter.Read Debra's piece mentioned in the episode by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Man, really exciting times. I mean, exciting is a word for it, right? Like, got some concerns with the coronavirus, people working from home, new ways of working impacting marginalized folks in different ways, so definitely expect for our content to shift a little bit. So we're talking about and sharing tips on working from home and how to work from home, dealing with managers, leading teams if you're working from home and also dealing with managers who maybe have never had to manage you as you work from home. But all of that to say we continue to roll with the punches, y'all, and look, it's Tuesday. We're having another conversation, real talk in a corporate world. We do this, right? Like, we sit down with black and brown entrepreneurs, executives, CEOs--who are also executives, but you know what I mean--advocates, allies, public servants, elected officials, and look, today is no different. Like, we have a great guest, Debra Gore-Mann. Debra is the president and CEO of The Greenlining Institute, a policy, research, organizing and leadership institute working for racial and economic justice. Whoo, justice. That's a heavy word in these diversity & inclusion streets, and here they are, and here we go. Debra, welcome to the show, ma'am. How are you doing?Debra: Hi, Zach. Thanks so much for inviting me. I too am sitting in, you know, troubling times in that I am a decision maker on whether to work from home or whether to continue to bring folks into work, so I hear you on your opening.Zach: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, to your point about being a decision maker, I'd love to talk about your journey, right? Like, you've held a variety of different roles, from investment banking to being in athletics to being a chief development officer. Like, I'd love to hear more about your path. Like, as Living Corporate, and I think as we all continue to have these conversations, we've been blessed to talk to people with really unique journeys, right, and it seems as if honestly the people that are making the most impact have some of the most, initially on the outset, just curious paths to getting there. I'd love to hear more about just your story.Debra: Absolutely, and I think my journey is--you know, I used to think that is that it was unique, but the more that I've shared it the more I've realized that there were just some pivotal moments that happened, that happened to me. So in my journey, you know, I'm biracial. My mother is Japanese and my father is black, and he was in the military. And I know for some folks when you say "the military" it means--you know, it's a significant sort of life experience to have a parent who was in the military. So he meets my mother in Japan, and so, you know, she comes to the United States. So she was an immigrant, so I kind of speak that space. And our house was very much a bicultural home. We ate as much Japanese food as we ate soul food. So it was nothing for us to have sushi and collard greens.Zach: Y'all mixed it--y'all mixed it together?Debra: Yeah, totally. My mom just, like, just did both, just did both. Zach: Word? Hm.Debra: But the one thing that was sort of emphasized in our house was education, and equally from my father's side, you know, black household, as the Asian side. I did have a bit of a tiger mom, so people might know what that means, [laughs] you know? And education was important, and so, you know, really kind of overachieved in that space, and here was one of these critical, pivotal moments, right? So finishing high school I'm literally the number two in my class--I think they call it the salutorian--my best friend was the number three person in the class, and I'm going to apply for colleges, and the story she gets--and she's German but white, and the story I get when we compare notes are completely different. I'm told to go to a community college. My family can't afford to send me to college, but this would be a good stepping stone. I mean, it was a very positive conversation, and then I compared with my friend Lilly and she's like, "She told me that I should apply to some of the best schools on the West Coast," but in particular, 'cause I'm originally from Seattle-Tacoma, the University of Washington or the University of Oregon. Totally different story. And so, you know, we're sort of going, "Yeah, this is because you're black." [laughs] And I'm like, "Yeah, it is," but, you know, I didn't know. I hadn't gone to college. My sister--I had an older sister, and she went because, through the PSATs, somebody offered her a full scholarship, so I thought that's how it happened. Well, lo and behold, her brother had gone to MIT. He comes home during that winter break and he says, "Oh, no, you guys--you're #2? You're #3 in the class? You guys are applying to ivy leagues." And we're like, "What's an ivy league school?" 'Cause our counselor didn't tell us anything like that. And so I end up applying to Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, Cal Tech, the University of Michigan, right? Sort of high technical schools, high academic schools. She applies to Yale, Harvard. We still apply to our local school, the University of Washington. I also applied basketball, so that's gonna come in here. So I had some athletic scholarships as well, and ended up we got into I want to say 9 out of 10 of the schools we applied to. She ends up going to Yale and I end up going to Stanford, and that in and of itself--so if you're in an Asian household, you know, for the daughters to leave the home is sort of "bad daughter, disobedient," so my mother was like, "You're not--" She doesn't know Stanford from anything else. She's like, "You're not going to California? You're a bad daughter." So my first courageous step was to say, "I'm gonna go to this school. It's in California," because of my good friend's brother who was like, "This is one of the top schools in the country. You need to go." So that's my first sort of, you know, accidental but intentional advice that I got, and then, you know, going to Stanford really kind of changed my life from there, opened up a whole new dialogue, really started to understand my biracialness. Now we have a term, intersectionality. At the time intersectionality was not necessarily as bright and clear, but I really started to understand that and, you know, had an engineering degree. I worked at a tech company, a material science tech company, when I graduated, then I went back to graduate school--back to Stanford--and got my MBA, and at that time I gotta be honest, you know, I was really motivated by money. We were a lower middle-class. You know, my dad was in the military. My mother worked as a domestic housekeeper, so I was cleaning houses, helping her clean houses from a very early age, so I can clean a mean bathroom now to this day. [laughs] Zach: To this day. [laughs]Debra: To this day, you know? You don't want me to come visit your house.Zach: [laughs] I might. [laughs]Debra: "I need to clean this bathroom!" [laughs] And so it was really kind of important for me to sort of maximize my value, so I went to Wall Street, you know? I went to work at an investment bank, and even realized--well, let me take a step back. Another circumstance that happened, when I went to graduate school, I ended up being the only black female in that class. And this is, you know, 1987. But what happened--and I went to admissions and I was like, "How can I be the only black woman in my class?" There was about 25 to 28 of us who had applied, but we all applied at very competitive--so Wharton, Harvard, you know, Princeton. You know, top business schools. Wharton, Northwestern, and the rest, the other 24, went to all the other schools. I was the only one that year that picked Stanford. [laughs] So here I'm in a class, you know, where I'm the only sort of black female voice, and so in, like, every class it's like, "Well, what does Debbie think?" Zach: You become the representative.Debra: I'm the representative, I'm, like, the sole representative, but I'm still identifying as biracial. I'm like, "Why don't y'all care about my Japanese lineage?" But in any case, right, so I land squarely in that, and what really helped me navigate that was that I played basketball, and we would have these pickup games, and I would, you know, be ballin' with the rest of the white guys who are now, you know, running companies, running venture capital, but sports was my translator and my equalizer, and so I've always very much leaned into sports vernacular and ability, and I think that has served me well, frankly, in my corporate leadership and everything, to be able to talk sports--and I mean, like, really talk sports--has really helped.Zach: And what position did you play? Not to cut you off.Debra: I was a point guard. I was a point guard.Zach: Okay, so now how would you characterize your game? Were you, like, a combo? Or were you, like, a facilitator?Debra: Yeah. So I was definitely a floor general. I didn't shoot as much, but, you know, a lot of assists, played all 40 minutes, you know? Started as a freshman, all four years, last two years team captain, so I think the leadership stuff kind of developed there. Played a lot with men. I think that's a common thread with women who really sort of want to elevate their game, you know, playing against people who are bigger, quicker, and stronger really gets your game up there. But, you know, so I'll make analogies--I was actually talking to a coalition person, and, you know, they have a very strong coalition, and I said, "Well, you know, here's my analogy. I'm like Kevin Durant coming to the Warriors after you guys won a couple." [both laugh] And that frames it, right? Like, "Oh, yeah. We're balling," but look, I've got some skills, and I can come and, please, let's just try to win some more championships. So sometimes those sports analogies, like, you know, people are like, "Oh, I get what you're talking about."Zach: They put it together, yeah.Debra: Yeah, and then you also don't sound--you know, it's pretty arrogant to say, like, "I'm Kevin Durant." Like, I'm not Kevin Durant, but people understand that there's a skill set coming into the game. And so I tend to do that. So anyways, I go to Wall Street, and that was yet another environment where I'm, you know, very few--let's see, in that cohort I was the only African-American in that cohort, and then Wall Street is, you know, definitely--I always tell people "Until you make some money, you can walk away from money," so I was able to, you know, buy a home, help my family. You know, my father had passed, so I was able to help my mom with her house. I had a portfolio of investments and could, you know, really speak money and capital and understanding that, but, you know, after I made some money I was like, "Wow, this is not very fulfilling. This is "What have you done for me lately? What's your last transaction?"" And, you know, you're constantly just pushing the rock up the hill. So at that point then I stayed in the private sector and I used my engineering degree with my finance, and in the Bay Area there's a company called Bechtel, who is a large engineering infrastructure company, family-owned, and they have an in-house boutique financial arm, and because I had engineering and I had finance I went to work for that in-house boutique bank, and the beauty of that is it's a global company, so I had a passport and for, you know, five years I worked out of the country. China was opening up in some of their enterprise zones a lot in Latin America, South America, and did these large, large structured finance in foreign currency. So good multi-tasking, you know? The language, the currency. It was sort of complicated transactions, and I loved that work. Like, loved, loved, loved that work, and then the big pivot was I got married and I had a child.Zach: Congratulations, congratulations.Debra: And for women that's a big deal. Even for me at the time, you know, I had worked on a big, multi-billion dollar deal in Mexico, and they weren't gonna let me have maternity leave. They didn't have maternity leave actually. So we crafted--you know, I had accelerated some deals that I had done, so I killed myself working 100 hours so that I could take three to four months off. There wasn't--so when people talk about maternity leave and FMLA, I was like, "Yes! Where do I sign up?" This is some of the policy work, right, that now I'm all in because I lived through a time when women didn't have that. No matter how big my deal was, you know? I could be straight ballin' and it's like, "There's no maternity leave." And the big fear was that I wasn't gonna come back to work, that I was gonna love motherhood, and I was like, "Maybe." Like, I didn't know. I hadn't had a child. So sure enough I get my four months off and really missed working, so to the women who listen to your podcast, you know, I think that will resonate. It's like either, you know, the maternal part is like, "Oh, I love being at home," and I loved that too, but I really had this desire to keep working, and for me at that time then I couldn't just get on an airplane, be gone two or three weeks, 'cause I'd come back and my daughter was, you know, talking or rolling over. I was like, "No, no, no." So I always--I don't know how much space or people have talked to you about, you know, "Your network is your net worth," so I leaned into my network and I said, "Look, y'all. I need a job in the United States. Let's keep it simple, but if it could be in California all the better," and different kinds of, you know, opportunities came in, and it was, you know, someone in my network that said, "Hey, you went to Stanford twice, and the athletic department's looking for a CFO," and I had done enough structured deals, right, that we had some development companies and I had served as the financial officers in some devcos, so, you know, I said, "Okay, let me interview." Okay, so you'll love this, Zach. So I go into this interview. The athletic director was Ted Leland, who was probably one of the top five athletic directors in the country. The faculty athletic rep was Jerry Porras, and he had co-written the book "Built to Last," which was a best seller, with Jim Collins, who then wrote "Good to Great." He's the faculty athletic rep, and then the provost is this--you know, this black professor who's up and coming named Condy Rice.Zach: What?Debra: So I'm interviewing--at the time though... come on, now, we're in the '90s. At the time I'm like, "Okay, athletic director, sports, small field," right? I had been doing global deals. My deals were in the Wall Street Journal and the Financial Times. I'm like, "[?] He's an athletic director." Now, Jerry Porras, Jerry Porras I'm like, "Okay, you're kinda ballin'. You're writing best sellers. You're Latin. First of all, you're a Latino male who's a tenured professor at Stanford." So I got a white male who went to community college and now is the athletic director at Stanford. I have a Latino male and then this African-American professor, Russian studies. I was like, "Oh." So, you know, think about the diversity of that right there. Think of the diversity. Black woman, Latino male, white man, and they are gonna be the nucleus. So they say--you know, I talk the talk about "Okay, this is how I would do the athletic department as the CFO and how I'd run it," and they were like, "This is great. We'd like to offer you the job." And I was like, "Great. What's the pay?" It was, like, a 50% pay cut, and I was like, "Oh, yeah, no." Remember, even when I was an undergrad I was like, "Yeah, I gotta make some money, and I'm taking care of my family," and then at this point I'm now sandwiched. I'm taking care of both, right, my own family and then my mother's. So we're kind of that sandwiched generation. So I'm like, "Thank you so much. Here's my dilemma: I can't take the pay cut. It's too much of a pay cut," and I thought it was done, right? So I'm, like, moving on. I'm interviewing other places. I almost went into consulting. I get a call back from Ted that says, "We want you to interview one more person," and I was like, "But I--" And he said, "No, just go to one more interview," and I end up interviewing with the vice president of finance, and they're thinking that--the athletic department reported to the position in the finance office, and so he interviews me and he says, "Look, I'm gonna give you this job and this job," so when I joined Stanford I held the position in the athletic department and then I held a position in the University, which allowed them to basically double my salary and keep me whole. So I was just like, "Wow," you know? So another pivotal kind of--and that's the transition. Like, the transition--I think a lot of people might have to take a pay cut or whatever, but I kind of feel like, "Well, my tool box was pretty robust. I could speak the sports language. I had been speaking the sports language through my whole financial--" So when it came to interviewing in this completely different industry, I was able to translate and transfer those skills, and then, you know, got into--so that's my pivot into college sports and my real first exposure into sort of diversity of thought, you know, equity, what does that look like for women of color. There was a real commitment to Title IX. Stanford was one of the first schools--and I was that first generation that got the title. Literally those scholarships came out in '81, so I'm dating myself now, and I was the first generation to get Title IX scholarship, a full scholarship. So I've been in this space, right? I've been in this equity, justice, racial, just living it, and so, you know, just fast forward. I did, you know, sort of run the gamut in athletics, and when this opportunity at The Greenlining Institute opened up, it is the single place where I have been able to unapologetically, openly talk about racial equity in all forms, and my work is to remove those barriers and to provide economic opportunity. So I'm still true to my message of "Okay, we gotta develop personal wealth, community wealth, and then remove the racial barriers," and it's full-stop, you know, redlining, community development, all of the things that are--you know, affordable housing, health care, all of the intersections now, and I just do it full-throated. So there I go. There it is, Zach. There's the journey. [both laugh]Zach: That's incredible, and you know what's interesting? 'Cause, you know, you talked about dating yourself, but what I hear in that though is the fact that you've really lived this life and you're doing this work, like, beyond the buzzwords of today, right? So, you know, today when we talk about diversity and inclusion or we talk about equity in a corporate context, you know, we don't really mean making people whole, driving for just--like, creating paths to justice or, like, systemic change, right? Like, we're not really talking about that. Like, not really, not in the average diversity, equity and inclusion conversations. We're typically talking about some type of training and some communications, and so what I'm really excited about as we kind of get into this interview is, like, more about the work and where you see The Greenlining Institute going. And to that end, in a piece that you wrote for The Greenlining Institute announcing your arrival to the organization you said--a portion of what you wrote, I'm gonna read it here, quote "People would argue that a focus on the building of a nation through a specific lens of color and race only hinders progress. They are the people who often claim to not see race and who replaced the slogan "Black Lives Matter" with "All Lives Matter." I'm not one of those people." So let me keep it 100 with you. When I read this, right--and I recognize you work for The Greenlining Institute, and I recognize that, you know, you've been in places where you've practically drove and you've strived for creating equity for your constituents or stakeholders or whoever the people that you're serving are. I'm gonna still say I still don't see a lot of black executives who boldly engage topics of race, like, be it from a position of self-preservation or a lack of personal range, but, you know, I think about Howard Bryant of ESPN and NPR. He was on the show a while back, and he said "To advocate for black people is to put your whole career in jeopardy," and so I'm just really curious, like, when did you make a decision to not only discuss black equity in these, like, theoretical frames, but leverage your own capital and labor to help solve for it and have, you know, in your career, have you had colleagues discourage you from pursuing this type of work?Debra: So I totally understand what Howard Bryant is saying when he says "Black people have to put their career in jeopardy." No doubt, right? It's the judgment against Michael Jordan that he didn't know political advocacy, but now, you know, a generation later, like, it's fine for LeBron James to do it actually, and, you know, even Steph Curry or Steve Kerr. I mean, they're openly in this space now. So I think it is the times that you live in that affect it. I constantly had people who discouraged me if I wanted to have my career ascend or be eligible for large bonuses. There was a bit of impostor syndrome that, you know, you had to perpetrate. So the people usually who were discouraging of speaking boldly into race and gender and the intersectionality that I survive in were mostly white people, right? And so they were making it clear to me of the risks. Like, "You could do it, Debbie. You can talk about this, you can talk about that, but I'm just gonna tell you what may be the consequences of it." So I think there is some truth for sure to what Howard Bryant is saying. The flip side is so when do you have the courage then to go ahead and put my career on the line? Like, you know, "I don't give an F. Here we go." [both laugh] And this is what's gonna just trip you out, Zach. So the moments that I've been able to do that most boldly was when I was encouraged and had the support of mentors who, you know, the Condy Rices or the Ted Lelands or, you know, I could name two or three people who were mentors who said, "Look, go ahead, speak your truth, and I got your back on this one." So for example, when I was at Stanford--I had been there maybe four or five years, you know, and I had done the first big Nike deal--they had never done a big Nike deal--and got one of the largest campus deals ever. Pepsi, at that time the soda wars were happening in your facility, so we negotiated that. I had negotiated two very high profile coaches contracts. So my credibility on campus was pretty legit, and this new dean of the medical school really wanted to have the orthopedics department sort of be a partner with the athletic department, because think about it. The athletes, you know, at that time, Tiger Woods, John Elway. Like, we had some--and they still have some very high profile athletes there. So I had met with the chief of orthopedics and I was like, "Oh, it was a great meeting." Very white male, very, very white. So I'm code-switching and I'm doing all the things that I do to make sure that he's comfortable, and after that meeting he goes back to the dean and says, you know, "I think she's gonna be a problem," or something to that affect. So then two of our medical doctors who had been doing all of our surgeries--knees, shoulder, elbows--came back, and one who I trusted--we had a very... obviously if you're dealing with young people's bodies and those families, so I tended to be the person who talked to the family and said, "Hey, this is our expert." He came to me and he told me. He said, "So this dean, they have some concerns about the relationship," and I said, "This isn't about the relationship. This is about me. This is this white guy who's not comfortable," and I sat there and I was fuming, and I went to the athletic director and I went to the faculty athletic rep and they were like, "Oh, no. We're going all in," right? But they had to--I probably would not have had I not had their voices behind me, and so we did. We met with the dean, and I asked some very, you know, pointed questions. You know, "Where was this concern coming from?" You know, I had the faith of the coaches, the head coaches, and the faculty athletic rep and, you know, X, Y, and Z, and where was this voice coming from? And he was just sort of, "Well, I kind of heard you--" "Did I say that?" "No, but, you know, it was--" And so I was just like, "I think this is racial. I think it's both racial and gender." Men with influence, this is important to your career that you sign this athletic department and, you know, it was immediately--you know, he was apologetic, and "That's not what I meant," and I was like, "You know, that's fine. I'm just telling you how you're presenting yourself and what that means to me and my career." But, you know, I don't know that I would have stepped out on that branch on my own, you know? I think if I had just walked that my career might have been at risk, but knowing that I had, you know, two very senior people say, "We got you on this," was important, was important. And so the advice that I do tend to give now is that, you know, everybody, a young professional, a mid-year professional, I think everybody should have an advisory council where you have somewhere between three and five people that you have literally asked to be a mentor or who has some sort of credibility and clout who can advise you on when to make these very hard decisions. I've had an advisory council ever since, you know, and it's changed depending on the industry that I'm in--and I tend to have three. I used to have five. And you want an odd number in case there's a tie, you know? [laughs] If you have one say yes and the other say no, you need that third one to say yes or no to break the tie. But then that'll help you temper, you know, your career advice with the steps you need to take when you have to fight the good fight. And I know now that--you know, I don't know where he is in his career, but I guarantee you he will never--he'll think twice, you know, about "Oh, am I doing this because I have some gender bias? Because I have some racial bias?" Like, he had been comfortable in that space and he had done his thing, and he probably had run over a bunch of black people, and he finally ran into somebody who said, "This ain't right," and then had other people sit in the room with me and say, "You're not right," you know? So those moments are, you know, sort of life-changing, but they're done with courage for sure. My voice was quivering. My knees were shaking. But I was like, "I'm going all in. I'm going all in on this one."Zach: And I bet you felt all the better for it after the conversation too.Debra: Oh, absolutely, yeah, and it made the next conversation easier, you know? Once you do it you realize that the house didn't fall in, [laughs] or that your career didn't implode. Now, you know, had it imploded maybe I'd have a different [?], but then, you know, now I'm able to sit in a room and say, "Well, you know, are you sure that's what you mean? You know, I kind of hear--" and "I feel like you have some bias here," and, you know, now I'm that voice for the whole community. I'm like, "Look, you are racial washing. You are equity washing right now, people of color and affordable housing. This is about segregation. Let's call it what it is. They don't want to put affordable housing on [?] in Lafayette a lot of white people live there and they want us living in segregated communities. Come on." So I can just speak it now and say, you know, to policy makers or banks or corporations or city hall, say, "Look, I disaggregated this. We have disaggregated this. Here is the bias that still lives. What are you gonna do?" And "Here's how we're gonna help you do it." So we have a whole framework that we say, "Okay, this is how you dismantle it, and this is how we're gonna build it back up."Zach: I think that work--it's just the work itself is so incredible, because, you know, even if you just look, like, from a historical perspective, right? So like, what, black folks have had the same rights on paper for, like, 54, 56 years, and so I think about the fact that 1. that's not even a whole lifetime, right, but then on top of that, like, because of that fact, Gen X is, like, the first generation of people who were born into this country with all of their rights, and really even millennials are--still today, like, a lot of these people, myself included, are first-generation corporate professionals, and I've thought about that side a lot. Like, the fact that a lot of black and brown folks, this is their first time really even being in these spaces, but what I haven't thought about until recently, Debra, is that for white people, this is their first time dealing with black people in these spaces, and when they go home and they talk to their colleagues or their older mentors, they don't really--I mean, they're not going to get a perspective that isn't within a context that is formalized anti-blackness, right? So you think about, like, let's just say if I wasn't a first-generation professional. I talked to my uncle. He can give me context on just working in majority-white spaces, he could do that, but if I was white and I'm dealing with you in this space and I go and talk to my uncle, he's not gonna--he very well likely is not gonna have anything to teach me or tell me about, like "Oh, well, this is how you need to be self-aware, and this is how these cultures work," you know? So I find that really curious, and you kind of--you answered one of my questions, but I want to ask this one though, 'cause you kind of touched on it a little bit. What does it look like, right, to build relationships across the various types of circles that you have to engage in? I think about the fact that when you're talking about policy and you're talking about shifting and creating systemic change, like, you have--I would imagine there's some grassroots folks that you have to engage and endear, but then there's also corporate entities who influence the actual policies, right? Like, I would imagine you're talking to some billionaires, but then you're also having conversations with activists, and you're also talking to folks in the government. Like, what does it look like to manage that wide array of philosophies, motivations and personalities? Like, how does that practically show up?Debra: Hm. I do think there has to be this consistency in philosophy. Like, you have to really be grounded in your values, because once people start challenging you, right--so if you truly believe that there's systemic racism, and not just in the policy but in the cultural diatribe of "Pull yourself up from the bootstraps. Poor people are poor because they're lazy." Like, that's a whole capitalistic trope, and if you want to really dismantle the conversation, then you have to have clarity that that is what's happening, because it is so easy to get on the "You can make money if you just pull yourself up by your bootstraps." You know, the Christian, Protestant work ethic. Look, that is a construct to keep the segregation as status quo. So when you're, you know, either the corporate office or even the Capitol, you start to have this conversation about "Where are your values?" So if a person is leading with "I believe you can pull yourself up from the bootstraps," I know that they have completely--they have such a long way to go before they can even have a conversation about racial equity. Like, that foundational conversation, so I start there. I start there. So, you know, let's say--even now. So if you're a digital [?] and you've been sort of, you know, raised that you probably, you know, think "Okay, I have all these online tools, and [?] are non-biased." Okay, let's just disaggregate that. Right now there's more loans that are--let's just say your car loan, right, or your home loan, it used to be about 4-5% done online. It's darn near 35% online now. And that information shows that there is so much racial bias. Black and brown people pay 100 to 200 [?] points more. Their loan interests are higher. So the algorithm, which has been written by white men who are in that space, that algorithm has bias. "No, it's neutral." "No, it's based on zip code. It's based on spending habits. It's based on--" You know, 'cause now they have all this big data tracking you. All of that is racially biased because it's founded in this language of "If you work hard and you get educated, then you deserve it."Zach: Yeah, this idea of meritocracy.Debra: And that is the racial construct. So we are now having this conversation about "Okay, what does wealth mean?" Okay, wealth. You know, mostly we think, "What's in my bank account? I have a house." Wealth is "I have the freedom to take a vacation. I have the ability to take a week off if my family is sick. I have the ability to cover a bill if it's, you know, a health bill, an automobile breakdown or a home thing." Like, that is wealth. So if you say--and people say, "Oh, yeah. Everybody should have the right to do that." "You should have the right to be able to visit family," or "You should have the right to be able--" Okay, so then you say "What does that policy look like to allow us to do that?" So I don't really actually have to talk race. I don't. I need to talk about a culture, a narrative. Like, we have to take command of a narrative, which is coming. This whole political race, presidential race, pivoted on South Carolina and black folk voting. Like, change the landscape. And for the first time, you know, Ta-Nehisi Coates testified with Danny Glover around reparations. Like, people are willing to say, "Wait, what is this?" And we have video now of police abuse, you know, and we're unpacking the criminal justice system. Like, there's an opportunity for us to walk into this space, which at the end of the day will affect your corporate life and will allow you to show up authentically, and all the data shows that a business decision made with diverse voices in the room, diverse ethnicities in the room, are going to get you better business decisions. So I can even talk to you on--if you just want to talk pure capitalism, like, "Hey, this system that, you know, your white boys built is breaking down, so you at least gotta admit you gotta consider another system." [laughs] Like, you gotta figure out, just even from an economic basis, that what we have now is not going to persist. It's just--it's not. It's collapsing on itself, and now, you know, we have--and it might happen in a generation, that we're going to create a new landscape of what wealth and economic opportunity looks like.Zach: I mean... you know, typically we do sound effects during the show. Like, right here I just want to drop, like, a Flex bomb. Boooooom. Sound Man, he's gonna put it in this. Put it in right here. Boom. I mean, it's just incredible. You're absolutely right, and I'm really curious, like, kind of continuing along the last part that you said, you know, in January you wrote something called "The Many Reasons to Impeach Trump," right?Debra: The many. [laughs] Not the three they landed on.Zach: Yeah. Not the couple. Not the few. The many. [laughs] And you wrote, "For communities of color, Trump has long since violated our public trust, and we know that a multitude of possible articles were excluded." So, you know, we're in an election year, right? Like, if Trump is elected for a second term, how do you anticipate Trump's policies practically impacting the efforts of The Greenlining Institute's goals? Debra: Actually, the Trump administration has emboldened the political conversation. We are in more demand now because of the contrast. Before there wasn't as much contrast. It was everybody was kind of in the grey. We were kind of all getting along.Zach: We got a black president. There's no more racism.Debra: Right. You know, we had arrived, and now the contrast is so stark that, you know, everybody kind of knows "This doesn't feel right." And so it's like, "So what does right feel like?" And we feel like we need to occupy that space of "Okay, here is what, you know, racial equality looks like. Here is what right feels like, and let's redefine--" He's offering you a model. This is what the model looks like. "I talk crazy. I put down whoever I feel like putting down. It always is racialized. I'm a model. Look at me. I'm an economic model." And understand, it is an economic model. He does not stand on any values. He does not stand on any religious--it's, like, transactional. "Here's how much." "I just got a couple billion dollars from Israel. I just got a billion here, a billion there." That's the model. So what do you offer in contrast to that economic model, right? And so I get that, okay, there's this hardcore 38, 40% that's like, "Yes, I believe that economic model," and then there's the "Okay, we want to be a kinder, gentler kind of space," that I feel like Biden's kind of walking into, but at some point you're gonna have to have a conversation about what is that? What is wealth? What is community wealth? What does economic wealth look like? 'Cause he's offering you a model, you know, and it just happens to be this very racialized model, but man, we're comfortable with that. Let me just say we're comfortable with that racialized model, and it's just--Zach: And we have been, right?Debra: Yeah, and in the absence of it I'm scared. It's like, "Wait, but I understand that one. I can be a poor white--"Zach: "I get this though."Debra: Yeah. "I'm a poor white person and I'm voting against my own interests because I believe if I pull myself up by the bootstraps," and I'm like, "No. You've been disenfranchised."Zach: For multiple generations.Debra: And you're still voting for your guy. So I think that, you know, the contrast is what's allowing our work to actually, like, accelerate. We have so much work that we cannot even get to. Like, right before this meeting we were triaging which--and I was working with my health equity person--which health equity bills could we support with our limited amount of energy and resources that we have? Because we are prioritizing how much work there is to do. There is just so much work to do, yeah. So in terms of framing what happens to our goals, I think, you know, we stay very--we're okay, we're solid in our goals. The work has just been multiplied and amplified.Zach: That's a blessing. And, you know, what I'm hearing also--and something that we don't discuss enough, again, when we talk about, like, really creating and driving for equity, we're talking about, like, really shifting and engaging systems. Like, a lot of times, like, these conversations, they start and stop at individuals, and, like, then we get lost in, like, the distraction of intentions. It's like, "Okay," and, you know, if bias are conscious or unconscious. We don't talk about impact. We don't talk about, again, like, the models by which these things are really, like, placed in, and how they drive inequity and disenfranchisement, so that's incredible. We're coming up close to the end of the interview. I want to give you a little bit of space to talk a little bit more about The Greenlining Institute, what you're excited about over the next, like, you know, let's say over the next year, and then I'd like to give you some space to just, like, any shout-outs or parting words you got for us.Debra: Oh, okay. [laughs] So the next year there is a deep conversation happening nationally about readdressing segregation, that if we continue to live in segregated communities in that, you know, what do they say, on any given Sunday we're the most segregated country in the world. There's a deep conversation about that and about community wealth, and I'm seeing both in the academy, where, you know, a lot of research is being done, to the policy makers, to bankers. There's a conversation about now how do we really address supportability, homelessness, because they're all intertwined. Like, you can't have a conversation about affordable housing without talking about health equities and social determinants of health, and you can't talk about that without talking about access to broadband, technology, that's moving so quickly, but almost everything--I don't know about you, but I don't know the last time I went to a bank. I do it all online.Zach: My bank is on my phone, yeah, and just to that point, like, I think about--so I have the privilege of having a decent-paying job, right, so I don't have issues with, like, using my data. I have unlimited data. I don't have issues with my Wi-Fi most of the time, and if I do have issues, then I have the privilege of picking up a phone, demanding someone come and fix this so I can get back to going and doing it. [laughs] But when you talk about this next generation of work, and, like, we talk about the workforce of the future and we talk about this digital age, there continues to be studies showing that black and brown communities, economically-distressed communities, are gonna be left out of this age because we don't have the access to enter, right?Debra: Yeah. So we have technology equity in our shop, and one of our biggest campaigns right now is Broadband for All, and then another big pillar for us is algorithm bias, and that cuts across not just financial institutions but medical bias in the algorithms that are, you know, based on research on cancer. Well, guess what that research was done around. You know, middle-class white families. So, you know, the next 12 months, I think this conversation is going to start to coalesce. There are going to be some common themes on how we can change the narrative on an economic sort of wealth, redefinition of wealth. I think that's really coming in the short term. I think the presidential outcome in November will also lay the ground for sort of that next level of work that's happening. So, you know, 12 months, we're running hard for sure, grinding, and then we'll see if, Heaven forbid, Trump gets reelected or not, because that will require some activism. I think we are all--we're gonna have to be that generation that really, you know, takes to the streets, you know, walks on the Capitol, boycotts, because if nothing else, you know, you can imagine if we all decided one day to pull our money out of the banks... Zach: Whoo...Debra: That's trillions of dollars. That's trillions of dollars.Zach: Yeah.Debra: Yeah, and so we might have--the activism may have to become real in the next 12 to 18 months if Trump is reelected. If not, I do think that the conversation, there's gonna be some--there will still be a conversation about "Okay, what does affordability look like?" 'Cause the homelessness is not going away. You know, we're one of the wealthiest states and we are so troubled by it. So I think that that conversation will continue, and we might as well grab hold of what we think wealth looks like. And like I said, it's the freedom to do a lot of things that you otherwise couldn't do. Call up your cable man or your repair man. [laughs] Yeah, and I actually think that's gonna then build community, right, in that if I know my mom is taken care of or my dad can retire comfortably, or my daughter, who does not have the American dream of buying a house--like, that's not... she's like, "What?"Zach: Definitely not in California. No way.Debra: Well, it's not even a part of the dream, right? She's more aspirational. "Maybe starting my own company or, you know, traveling globally." And I was like, "Wow," because that reality is not there for her. So to buy a home, it's not aspirational because it's not achievable.Zach: Well, and when you think about, like--I 100% hear you. The reason why I reacted when you said pull out the money from the banks was like, you know, this is not, like, "It's a Wonderful Life," right? Like, you know, nobody's gonna be like, "Well, your money's at Ted's house, at Bill's house." Like, no. The money--if that was the type of protest, if that happened, like, oh, my gosh. I mean, we gotta have you back on and just talk about, like, even the concept of protest, because--anyway, this has been a profound conversation, Debra. Thank you so much. Y'all, this has been Living Corporate. You know what we do. We're having intentional, authentic, transparent conversations every day. Again, I really want to emphasize, what I really enjoyed about this conversation and what I really hope our listeners are grasping and understanding is that shifting and creating equity and really having authentic conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion has to involve engaging and tackling systems, y'all. If we're not talking about engaging systems, we're not doing the work. Right? So I know a lot of us, there are people who listen to this show who are, like, diversity, equity and inclusion consultants, and there are people who listen in who are trying to figure out and trying to get the secret sauce on, like, this next generation, the workforce of the future. Like, y'all, if we're not willing to tackle and dismantle, or rebuild and, like, really think about these systems that are in play, we're not making change, y'all. Look, you can check us out on social media. @LivingCorp_Pod, on Instagram @LivingCorporate, and then look, we're all over Al Gore's internet, right? For those of us who are blessed to have digital access, you just type in Living Corporate on Google and we'll pop up, but we have all of the different domains, okay? So let me just rattle them off real fast, okay? You've got livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.us. We have all the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com, okay, but we have living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com, all right? Now, we're all over the place, and again, we're coming at y'all every week with this stuff. Today was a super dope conversation with the new CEO, Debra Gore-Mann, of The Greenlining Institute, a policy, research, organizing and leadership institute working for racial and economic justice. Make sure y'all check out the information in the show notes. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach has the pleasure of sitting down to chat with Dr. Janice Gassam, Ph.D. in an episode themed around discussing emotional labor. She and Zach touch on the concept of self-care, and Dr. Gassam shares a few ways she believes that organizations, aspirational allies, and leaders can help ease the emotional labor lift for black and brown folks in majority-white spaces.Connect with Janice on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.Check out her articles on Forbes!Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, we're here. We're back. We're having conversations, you know, that amplify the voices of black and brown people at work, and we do that through what? Now, I'm talking to y'all like this is a live podcast, but this is the part where you would say "by having authentic available transparent conversations with black and brown educators, executives, entrepreneurs, influencers, creatives, activists, and non-melanated or lower-melanted allies," right? People who are advocates of inclusive, diverse, and equitable spaces, and so we do that, right? Like, we have these conversations--honestly, I feel like every time we come on here we have a great guest, and today, today is no different. Today we have Dr. Janice Gassam. Now, listen, Dr. Gassam is a diversity and inclusion consultant and founder of BWG Business Solutions LLC, a company focused on creating strategies to foster an equitable workplace. Gassam is a professor at the Sacred Heart University, teaching courses in diversity and inclusion, performance management, data analytics, and employee engagement. Now, look, let me just go ahead and give y'all some stats, okay? Just real quick so y'all know, 'cause, you know, this is the thing. You know, we're gonna talk about this in the interviewer, but sometimes, you know, folks kind of look at these platforms--and Living Corporate is fairly unique, but they look at this stuff like, "Oh, this is just, you know, passionate stuff," quote-unquote, and it gets dismissed. No, no, no. Dr. Gassam has bonafides, okay? So she has a Ph.D. in organizational psychology, a TedX speaker, and she's authored over 100--listen, yo, 100. 100. Hold on, they're not hearing me. ONE HUNDRED articles. Now, you might say, "Articles on what? Articles on Lipstick Alley?" No. "Articles on Shade Room?" No. Articles on Forbes, what you talking about? [Flex bomb sfx] Okay? She's out here. She's making moves, okay? And listen, she has a competent communicator certificate from Toastmasters International. So not the local spot, okay? Catalyst certification in unconscious bias awareness, has spoken for Yale, H&M, and various other conferences and universities, and she's taught undergraduate and graduate courses in employee engagement, performance management, diversity and inclusion, amongst others. Dr. Gassam, how are you doing? Like, I just gotta--hold on, I gotta at least give you a cheer or something. [applause sfx]Janice: [laughs] Thank you so much, Zach. That was a really nice intro. You made me sound so important, but thank you so much for having me, and it's a pleasure to be here, and I'm really excited to get into this conversation. How are you today?Zach: You know what? I'm doing really, really well. I'm in New Orleans. My cousin-in-law is getting married.Janice: Congraulations. That's fun.Zach: Absolutely.Janice: Are you gonna go to Cafe Du Monde?Zach: Ooh, I might. I may.Janice: Yeah, you gotta have--you gotta. I think it's 24 hours, but the lines are usually pretty long. But if you have a chance, if you're there for a little bit of a time, that would be fun. Wow, that sounds really nice.Zach: It should be great, you know? And this is the challenge, right? So when you get older--so I'm just now hitting 30, right? So you get older and, you know, you can't just kind of eat and do some of the things that, you know... your body, your body sends you a memo later like, "Ayo, I know you tried to be cute earlier, but it ain't happening now. You've got an appointment now, so what's up? And now your knee hurting and you don't know why," right? But no, I'm doing great. How are you doing? What do you got going on these days?Janice: I'm doing good. I aim for seven hours of sleep, seven to eight hours, so I got my seven hours. Today I have to do--I'm writing some articles. I did some Forbes interviews, so I have to just transcribe them, and then I have grading of course. So that should be--should keep me pretty busy.Zach: Okay. Okay, all right. Now, look, it can't just slay by itself. You gotta put in the work, and you're doing it, so we appreciate you. So thank you.Janice: Thank you so much.Zach: No, no doubt. So look, let's get into it. You've established a deep brand in diversity, equity, and inclusion. Your profile--at what point in your life did you realize that this was the work that you wanted to do and why? Like, what led you to come to this point and create this brand for yourself?Janice: Well, I guess sometimes people ask me this question, and I think it's a combination of the fact that I come from a--my parents come from Cameroon, which is a West African country, so I--throughout growing up I kind of grappled with not being Cameroonian enough, you know? Because I don't speak the language, I don't cook Cameroonian food, and I didn't really know a lot about the culture growing up because I was born and raised here in America. So I think that that combination of the different culture, as well as, you know, growing up in predominantly white neighborhoods and going to predominantly white schools and also just recognizing my blackness, it's almost like--DuBois talked about, in "The Souls of Black Folks," a double consciousness that black people in America experience where it's kind of like they have to grapple with their own blackness as well as being a black person in a white America, and I think it was, like, a triple consciousness. So trying to figure out where--you know, where I fit in the black sort of scope as well as, you know, trying to assimilate to white America, and I did a lot of that in school, you know, so that I would be accepted and then also embracing my culture and being true to my culture and that aspect of my background. So I think that that combination always made me really interested in diversity and inclusion. In 2011 I started a YouTube channel where I talked primarily on race and quote-unquote black issues and things that I felt were relevant to the black community, and I've kind of scaled back, and I haven't made a video probably in six or seven months, but I still, you know, post videos on there here and there, and I was able to cultivate a pretty loyal and strong audience. I had about 20,000 subscribers on that channel, but-- [ow sfx] I actually moved my focus to corporate diversity and inclusion because I saw that there were holes in the system when I would work in different companies. I noticed certain things. So I guess my focus moved from sort of these issues that are relevant to black America to "How do I fix these issues in corporate America?" Zach: And it's just such critical work. First of all, let me take a step back. So I think it's interesting when you think about, like, just black identity, underrepresented identity, and just all of the nuance of that, just of your own identity period. Like, let's just--not talking about within the context of any other social framework, but you have yourself, your own lived experience, which is complex, and then you're placing that within a context of being, like, in a white majority, and then--I don't know. It's just a lot, and I wonder--and it kind of leads me to my next question. When you talk about, like--when we talk about this space in diversity and inclusion and we talk about really kind of taking these conversations that black America is having--and I'm not trying to exclude other non-white spaces, but I'ma speak to black America because that's the experience that I live in. So historically over the past, I don't know, what, 100 and something odd years, like, we've had thought leaders talk about and have these internal conversations or in-house conversations about what it means to be black, and then of course we've had--you know, we're knocking on the door today, but there have been people who knocked on the door before us having these conversations and bringing these discussions to light. I guess my question is, as I look at your profile, do you ever see or feel a sense of being in, like, two worlds at once? And these two worlds that I'm talking about is one I'm seeing, like, a bit of--I'm seeing, like, one camp when it comes to this corporate D&I space, this corporatized D&I space that is very heady. It's very academic, and it's largely white and institutionalized a bit. And then there's this other group that's continuing to grow and build that is more activist in its function and more driven and founded by themes of justice, and also driven by themes of lived experience. When I look at your profile, and even what you just shared about you being a first-generation American and you being a first-generation professional, like, a first-generation in a variety of ways, but also having this academic background, do you see yourself straddling both of these worlds? Do you see--I mean, I'm kind of making an assumption that you even agree with my analysis of, like, corporate D&I. I'm just curious about, like, how do you see yourself as you operate in this space?Janice: No, absolutely. I have a close friend who, you know, I've been doing these diversity dinner dialogues in New York City, which is just, like, a free workshop where anyone who has an interest in diversity and inclusion can come. You know, we talk about a specific topic. Papa John's sponsors it, and in doing that I actually got to know a girl who has become one of my close friends. Her name is Donna. She's getting her Ph.D. in psychology, but her dissertation focuses on corporate diversity training, and she's looking specifically at how receptive people are when the trainer is not a diverse person, so is a white person or seemingly a white person. And going back to your point, I do agree. I think that unfortunately, any time you're talking about diversity, equity and inclusion, I think people are more receptive to the message when it comes from a white person. That's just unfortunately, you know, what it is. If I'm talking about, or you're talking about your lived experience, I think that people put more stock in when a white person says those things or finally realizes that there are inequities that are taking place. I do commend--not to take anything away from white people who are in this space who are using their privilege to amplify the voices of people of color, but I just think it's something that's important to note, that in this space I do think that there is sort of, like, a hierarchy, and I think that, you know, unfortunately black people are at the bottom of that hierarchy, and I think that when it comes to issues that are relevant, specifically to black people and people of color, those get prioritized last, and I think that that's unfortunate. People don't understand that you can be a marginalized group but still be racist. So I think that it's important to understand those sorts of things. I don't know, I guess, what the solution is, but it's just something that I've noticed.Zach: No, straight up. And it's interesting too. So your point around, like, hierarchy, 'cause even as I talk to other diversity, equity and inclusion professionals, right? Like, something that people will jump out [?] any time we have these conversations. It's almost like a point of pride or, like, particular insight when people say something like, you know, "Diversity and inclusion just isn't about ethnicity and race," and I'm like, "Well, wait... okay, it's not, you're right. Can we also acknowledge that ethnicity and race have played a critical part in, like, America's formation and policy structure and even today. I'm not saying that the other diversity [?] don't exist, but it's like people are so excited to, like, get away from that and then talk about "It's about diversity of education, and geography, and hair color," and--Janice: [laughing] "Diversity of thought."Zach: My gosh, diversity of thought. You know, I keep--you know, look, the government, they made--I'm serious, they made crack and diversity of thought in the same lab. They did. It's crazy. It's nuts.Janice: Right? That's a great way to put it, yeah. I think it's really easy to, like, divert the conversation, and that's why I think I like to do these diversity dinners and focus specifically on an issue, because I think when you're talking about, for example, allyship, allyship, that conversation--people think of allies more so as allies in that LGBTQIA+ community, but any marginalized group needs allies, and I think that when you don't focus specifically on race or ethnicity and you bring up the diversity conversation, I think people like to divert it and say, "Well, you know, you also have to be inclusive to this group and that group and that group," and I totally agree and I understand that, but I think that there are very unique challenges that people of color, and particularly black people, in this country face in that the main way that people are able to see that we are black is our skin color, you know? If you're part of a marginalized group where your identity is invisible, I do think that your experiences are vastly different from an individual like me or like you who our skin color is apparent to anyone that looks at us, and I don't think that it's--you know, I guess I'm not the type of person that likes to say who is struggling the most or likes to play the oppression politics, but I do think that that is an important point that needs to be acknowledged. Just because you're part of a marginalized group doesn't mean that our experiences are the same, you know? And I think that sometimes people like to say, "Well, look, I'm oppressed too. I have this particular invisible identity," and it's like--we might have similar experiences, but we also have vastly different experiences, and I think that sometimes that's overlooked. Even when I come in and do these corporate workshops related to diversity, I am always encouraged to not focus on race. And I recently had a consultation--so when people reach out to me to do a workshop, they'll schedule a call and then kind of figure out what I'm about, what topics I can speak to for their corporate audience, and I was specifically told recently to not victimize people in the workshop. So, you know, people don't want to be victimized. People don't want to feel like the finger is pointed at them. And sometimes people don't really want to directly address race, and I recognize and understand that. Before I was kind of, like--I didn't really quite understand that, but I know that, you know, when you come into a room and say to somebody, "Because you're part of this race, you have privilege, and your people have systematically and systemically oppressed," you know, based on the history. People shut down, and there's resistance, so it's almost like you kind of have to--I don't have any kids, but I know that sometimes when you have kids and you don't want to eat the food or take the medicine, you can kind of put sugar around it with the medicine and give that to them. So it's almost [?] diversity and inclusion. You have to give the sugar with the hard, I guess, lessons and the hard realities, because people get very defensive.Zach: And so then--so let's talk about that a little bit more. You shared the idea that folks will tell you, "Hey, just don't talk about it." Like, how do those requests come about? How do they frame it?Janice: Sometimes they're very great, [laughs] and other times it's more subtle, where I give them a list of topics--and of course, you know, I've been on YouTube since 2011 just talking in front of my camera about quote-unquote black issues and how--you know, racial dynamics, so it's a topic I feel very passionately about, but when I give them my list of topics that range from, you know, micro-aggressions to how to have conversations about race in the workplace to how to get the ROI of your diversity programs to emotional intelligence, what I've noticed is typically people like me to talk about emotional intelligence versus--and I think emotional intelligence is definitely an important topic, but it's not something that's difficult to digest, you know? It's not something that's gonna make people feel uncomfortable. So it's kind of like, "These are my lists of topics," and just in choosing the topics, you know, they'll reach out to me and say, "Could you do a talk on this?" or "Could you do a workshop on this?" And it's never been some of those more difficult-to-swallow concepts like race, because--and I understand, you know, you want your audience to be receptive to it, and unfortunately people really aren't receptive to conversations about race unless it's a white person giving it. A good example of that is--I showed my students the Chelsea Handler documentary that just came out on white privilege. I think that's what it's called, "Me and My White Privilege" or something like that. [Editor's note: it's "Hello Privilege. It's Me, Chelsea"] So I showed it to them. There was a particular clip where Chelsea interviewed some conservative women from Orange County, California, and they were saying people of color get privileges like school admissions, like jobs. They were referring to this myth that affirmative action is reverse racism. And so, you know, I showed them that clip, and then I spoke to how all of the things that were said in that clip were just factually incorrect, and affirmative action wasn't created to give unfair advantages to people of color and women who are not qualified, and also white women benefit the most from affirmative action. So I think that just watching that whole documentary, the reception has been interesting, because I think if someone like Kevin Hart or Dave Chappelle or, you know, any other comedian did a documentary on race, I don't think it would have gotten the same reception as Chelsea Handler's documentary, and I think that that's unfortunate.Zach: It's interesting too, because I was having a conversation with some majority folks, right? And they were talking about the documentary, and they said, "Well, you know, I don't know. Part of me is like, you know, 'Is this just another schtick?' Like, 'Is she even really being serious and authentic,' right? Like, how honest is this really?'" But then also there were people who watched it and really, you know, thought it was just groundbreaking and courageous and innovative and all of these other words. [laughing]Janice: It's interesting. I thought it was--it was just interesting. I think that when she was speaking with the women in that particular scene who were saying these things, she didn't really dispel what they were saying. They were like, "Well, you know, everyone has privilege, and it's not just white people," and Chelsea wasn't--I think she could have been more direct with dispelling their myths, and it's just incorrect to say that black people are getting--people of color are being treated, you know, better than white people in this country, 'cause that's just not true.Zach: That's just factually false.Janice: [?] You look at the rate of arrests. You look at who gets jailed, the amount of time that's given. If you just look at our criminal justice system, it's so apparent. You know, and what is her name? I'm forgetting the author's name, but she specifically talks about looking at the demographics of people who were pulled over and arrested driving on the New Jersey turnpike where they did this extensive study, and they found that, of course, the majority of those people were black and brown men. So just, like, it's obvious that those women are living in, like, their own delusion, and I think that maybe if I was sort of encapsulated in my own white America and I didn't interact--'cause obviously I don't interact really with anyone of color--I would probably have those same falsehoods as well, and one thing that I try to remind myself is that I can't really fault white people for not caring about certain issues because, in their minds, they think that it's not relevant to them. So we're--you know, humans are self-motivated, and we focus on things that we think will impact us. I think the fallacy is thinking that it doesn't affect them, because if Trump is spewing this rhetoric, or if our politicians are doing something that negatively impacts [one group?] people, ultimately that's gonna impact you in other ways. So I think that, like, there's this false idea that diversity and inclusion doesn't impact you or you're not--you don't have to be involved in the conversation, but I think that--you know, that famous quote that somebody said where it's like, "If one group is oppressed, we're all oppressed." You know, "If one group is not free, none of us are free." So I think that it's that. It's just that these women in that clip didn't understand how, like, we're all interconnected.Zach: No, you're absolutely right, and there's multiple points of evidence that we can look at to talk about just, like, disparity and inequity and disparate treatment for black and brown people juxtaposed to white folks, right? So you have--of course you have prison, just the criminal justice system. You also have, like, health care and treatment. You have access to public transportation. You have just general public school education. You have access to food. So just, like, neighborhoods that are--you know, you have food deserts. Like, those are real things, and they're impacted by race. So 100%. So, Janice, diversity, equity and inclusion is broad, and you talked about earlier that you cover a variety of things. You speak on a variety of things. Can we zoom in on a topic really quick? Let's talk about the emotional labor of black and brown DEI professionals, particularly women, in this, like, diversity, equity, and inclusion space, right? Like, I'd really like to talk about that. Are you down?Janice: Yeah, sure.Zach: Cool. So in the history of the show, you know, I've brought up the concept of emotional labor, but I've just said it. Like, I'll be like, "You know, people don't really consider the emotional labor." And I've talked about it with colleagues at my job. I've talked about it with friends. But, like, can we--but I don't think I've ever taken the time to really explain what emotional labor is, like, as a concept. Would you mind talking a little bit about what you believe--like, what is your definition of emotional labor?Janice: Absolutely. So it's funny you ask this, because at the recent diversity dinner dialogue I had this week there was a diversity professional. He works at a large consulting firm, and he asked what we--he posed the question to everyone who was there, and he said "What do you do for self-care?" Because D&I work is very exhausting, so what do you do as self-care? And, you know, one thing that I realized is that I never really escape it, because I feel, like you said, it's our lived experience, so any time I--and I don't watch TV, but when I open my phone to go onto Instagram, you know, the people that I follow are a lot of these--like, Shaun King, and, like, a lot of these, the [?] show. So people who report on news that's related to black people. So sometimes I just find myself scrolling past stuff, because--especially Shaun King stuff--I don't always have the bandwidth for it, and if I've had a long day and I'm just not in the mood for my day to be ruined, I have to scroll past stuff. But also, like, for me, I think fellowship is a really important part of just dealing with the emotional labor of it. I think fellowship with my fellow black and brown people, it just helps me, 'cause it's almost like when you're around people--when you're around the majority, it's almost like--I saw a picture where someone had, like, a mask on--a black person, it's like when they go into corporate America you put your mask on, and then when you get home you take your mask off. So I feel like when you're around your friends you're free to take the mask off and just, you know, explain what you're going through at work, and my friends and I, we talk a lot about our work experiences, and I--you know, my experience is a little different since I'm not necessarily in corporate America. I'm in academia and then I do consulting. And academia has its same politics, but it's a little bit different, but listening to--you know, I have a close friend who works at Uber, and just listening to all of my different friends' experiences, I'm just like, "Wow. This is really, really interesting," and, I mean, in a weird way, the fellowship helps me to sort of cope with some of these--the work that I do. So that really helps me. And also--it sounds weird, but I'm really big with sleep. [laughs] I always try to get my 7-8 hours, 'cause I think that--and there's research that indicates that when we're under stress, when we're not getting enough rest, we're sick, we're more likely to--our thinking isn't as sharp and as crisp, and interestingly people are more likely to fall into discriminatory behaviors when they're sleep-deprived. So I always try to make sure that I'm in--or, you know, as much as I can that I'm getting enough sleep, I'm getting enough rest, I'm going to the gym, even when I don't feel like going, to make sure that I'm treating my body as well, because there is this idea that, you know, in our society, you're not productive unless you're busy, and I really try to emphasize the importance of sleep and rest, especially when you're doing something as taxing as diversity and inclusion work or just being a person of color in a workplace that--you know, even if your work doesn't relate to diversity and inclusion, that's exhausting in itself. So I think that those are really important for me, sometimes just scrolling past those pages and those things that will bring me more stress, getting rest, and then just the fellowship.Zach: And so then do you think--do you think that the concept of emotional labor is explored enough, like, within, like, diversity and inclusion, and then also, like, as a concept when we talk to companies and clients and other organizations?Janice: I don't. I don't think that it's--and it doesn't really happen as much to me. Sometimes when I'm on a plane and I'm reading a certain book, someone might see something and comment, but I've seen sometimes where D&I professionals are wearing a shirt that makes a really bold statement and someone makes a comment about the shirt, and it's like--it's exhausting because sometimes you're out and you don't want to have a conversation about diversity and inclusion, but somehow it gets to that conversation. So I think that people just assume that because this is something you do for a living or you enjoy doing that you want to talk about it 24/7, and that's not always the case. So I think that it's not something that's explored enough and in enough detail.Zach: And so then, like, you know, what does fatigue look like? Like, you've been in this space for a while. Like, at what points do you realize, like, "Hey, I really need to," you know, engage in what is restorative for you. So you taking a break, you getting off social media, you sleeping a little bit more. Like, what are the signs of fatigue for you personally?Janice: I think when I have an opportunity that's presented to me, and instead of being excited I just--I'm already anticipating how tired I will be after the opportunity, that's a good indication that maybe I need to sort of slow down. And yeah, I think that would be the main thing for me. Sometimes people will reach out and say, "Oh, can you do this?" And it's an amazing opportunity, but I'm just like, "Oh, I have so much on my plate," so I can't--in my mind I'm like, "I can [?] do it," you know? And it's just--for me it's just sometimes I need to learn, one thing I need to learn is--Shonda Rhimes has a book called The Year of Yes. I need a Year of No, and I need to just--sometimes it's really powerful to just say no to things that you know will leave you drained and overwhelmed, even if you feel like it's for a good cause or it's for the greater good or it will benefit the person or the group that is getting the service. I think sometimes just saying no or just saying "No, not right now," is really helpful for me. So that's an indicator to me of when I've kind of, like, reached my point of exhaustion.Zach: That's just a really good point. I think, especially when you talk about these types of spaces, right, you know, people will reach out to you for a variety of things, and 99.9% of them are gonna be good, but--and so because they're genuinely good things, it's hard to say no, but it's like, "Man, I'm only one person." Right? Like, I don't have an inexhaustible amount of energy. I have to create some space for myself. Let's talk about this, and I really want to get back to something that you said earlier in the conversation. So you said sometimes people reach out to you asking you to talk about specific things. Are there ever any moments where you consider your profile, right? When you consider, like, the work that you've done in academia as well as your personal life and your journey and your lived experience? Do you ever battle feelings or insecurities around being tokenized?Janice: I don't. It's interesting. That's not something I--I think that even if you're choosing me for this particular role or you're asking me to do this because you want to check some boxes, I'm still gonna achieve the ultimate goal. So I think that I don't really look at the vehicle. I just look at, you know, "Am I able to accomplish or achieve this goal?" I recognize and understand that there is a possibility that maybe the powers that be saw what I look like and said, "Okay, we need this person so we look like we're being diverse and inclusive," but ultimately getting the opportunity to sort of try to push the needle and move the needle forward when it comes to building a more inclusive culture is fine with me. So it doesn't matter to me if the goal was to check some boxes, because I'm still gonna go in there and do what I really need to do and what I want to do. So I try not to think about that, because I think for me, if I started thinking about that, it would be, like, a never-ending rabbit hole of, like, "Are they really choosing me for my credentials, or did they see that I'm a black female and they want to check some boxes?" So I try not to think like that, because ultimately I'm like, "I'm gonna come in here and do what I'm supposed to do," and I try to just come in and do an amazing job so that even if they were trying to--even if the purpose was just to check the boxes, they'll see, like, what a strong, you know, worker I am, or what a strong consultant I am, and they'll understand that they made the right decision.Zach: I hear that, and what I'm taking away from that also is just, like, you know, people can choose you for whatever motivations they have. It's about how you decide to show up in that moment, right? Janice: Exactly.Zach: Yeah. It's interesting, you know? Like, transparently, I have those--it's something I struggle with, right? I struggle with the idea of "Man, like, why would you choose me?" But then, to your point, I know for me, like, I have a fairly specific brand, so when I show up, like, there's a story that I'm gonna tell. There's a way that I'm going to move. There's a way that I'm going to work. And, you know, we'll see how comfortable you are with that, and if you're not comfortable with that and you decide you want something else then, you know, that's fine too, but I have to show up and deliver on who I am and then, you know, let the chips fall where they may after that. Okay, so we're talking about emotional labor. We're talking about self-care and kind of getting those energies back. I think something that's, like, really understated as well at work for diversity and inclusion professionals, and just black and brown people in general, right? So even if you're not explicitly in diversity and inclusion, like, a space, but just at work, is the emotional labor of just being other in majority-white spaces, right? So, like, I'm curious, what are ways that you believe that organizations and that aspirational allies as well as just leaders can help ease the emotional labor lift for black and brown folks in these spaces?Janice: I think it goes back to organizations really trying to make us feel included. In my university--and I teach in a business department [where] there's no other black females. There's other women of color, a few who are of Indian--one who's of Indian descent and one who is Chinese, but they're--we're, like, one of few, and then at the university, I don't know how many tenured black professors there are, but there are very, very few. So I think that one thing that organizations can do is just try to take additional steps to make people who are the only feel included. So I'll give you an example. I was working at a university in New York City that when I started they said that they needed more diversity and inclusion. They needed the faculty to look like the student body. And this is a public school in New York City. It's part of a large university system. So most of the students come from different backgrounds, you know? There's lots of black and brown students, and the professors just didn't reflect that. One student told me that I was the first--a black student told me that I was the first black professor he's ever had. So, you know, I got there and they said, "Oh, we really want diversity," and then they didn't do anything to make me feel included. It was like they [tired?] me and dropped me off. My office was in--and little micro-aggressive behaviors. I'm no longer there, but I was in the Psychology department at that university, but my office was in the English department. There was no name on my office. And even though I was visiting faculty--so it's kind of, like, not guaranteed that they'll renew your contract--I was teaching more than any other professor in that department. I was also teaching during the winter intersession. So normally you get, like, a month off. I was literally--like, I had a week and a half off, and then January 2nd or 3rd I had to--Zach: You were back at it. Wow.Janice: So, like, I think that the inclusion piece is so important, because companies just look at the diversity on the surface and say, "We don't need a diversity program. We have lots of black people. We have lots of people from Asia. We have lots of this and that," and it's like, "But do they feel included?" That's really the important part. So I think that where companies miss the mark is that inclusion piece. So the university that I'm at now, Sacred Heart University, I think that they've done an amazing job with making me feel included. Even though I'm one of the only, I'm frequently invited--you know, they always have, like, off-campus events for faculty members, and if someone's retiring they have these parties and all of that, and it's just like--the department chair will reach out and say, you know, "Janice, are you gonna come to this?" Or "Would you like to join this committee?" And I just feel like--last year was my first year working there full-time, and they were just so--all of the faculty members, on their own, would come by my office. I'm sure they're like, "Who is this?" I look younger than I am, so people think I'm in my 20s, and I'm 32. So people are like, "Who is this young black girl with these [fauxlocks?] sitting in the office? Like, what?" So they'll come up to me and just say, "Hey, how are you? What's your name?" They'll give me their card, they'll connect with me on LinkedIn, and that's not something that I experienced at this other university that I worked at. So I think that they really made me feel a sense of inclusion, even though I was the only. Literally it was, like, a line of professors [?] where my office used to be. I know I was the only black woman on that floor. I didn't see any other black women. So, you know, just making me feel--including me, inviting me to things, trying to just, you know, check on me. And just really quick, Ernst & Young did a study where they tried to measure belonging that people feel in the workplace. So they developed something called the Belonging Barometer, and what their research found--this was last year that it came out--so what their research found is that the #1 way to make employees feel a sense of belonging is frequent check-ups. So if you are a manager or you're another employee and you come to the office of someone and say, "Hey, how are you? How was your weekend?" And you do this frequently, that is the best way to make employees feel a sense of belonging. So I think that at my university, my colleagues do that a lot, and that's what really makes me feel like--even though I'm the only, they're really making me feel like I'm part of a family.Zach: So first of all, you know, thank you for sharing that. You know, I'm curious. When you were going through the experience at the previous institution, did any of it feel like you were being gaslit a little bit? Like, did you raise any of these concerns? Like, "Hey, you got me all the way over here in this other group," and "Hey, I don't have a name on my door." Like, did you raise any of those things?Janice: No, I didn't, unfortunately, and a part of me felt just so--and I'm sure many of us as people of color feel like this--I honestly was, like, grateful that I had a job, 'cause I hadn't finished my Ph.D. yet. I was grateful I had a job. I was earning more money than I had ever earned in my entire life. I graduated with my Ph.D. when I was 30, so I was literally--most of my life I was in school, so I was used to, you know, not having health insurance. You know, when I moved to New York, I didn't have health insurance. So, you know, all of these things. I was grateful to have benefits, grateful to have a job, grateful to have my own office. That was a new experience for me. So I guess I didn't say anything. Not I guess, I didn't say anything, just because I was so grateful for the opportunity that I was afraid if I pointed these inequities out that that opportunity would be taken away from me. So I know that many times people of color, black people in particular, are in positions where maybe you didn't think you would get this far, and you have opportunities to sort of speak up, but you're worried that, by speaking up, it could jeopardize your job or jeopardize your opportunity, and that's how I felt, so I didn't say anything. I knew that in my mind I wasn't gonna be at that university for a long period of time, so I think that's what kept me going. I was just like, "This is a stepping stone," and ultimately it was, and I left that--I was only there for a year, and they didn't renew my contract, probably because I didn't finish--I hadn't finished my Ph.D., but I knew that it was temporary. Zach: So it's such a real point, right? Because I know there's--I mean, it's for good reason, right? So, like, black and brown folks, we'll get into these positions and we're like--and it's more than we've ever had before. So, like, not comparing--not relative to anyone else, just our own journey. Like, this is a peak, right? Relative to what we've experienced. And so then we're like, "Okay, well, you know, I don't want to say anything because this almost seems too good to be true already, so I don't want to mess this up."Janice: Right, exactly. Imagine if you had a job at, like, Google. Google is--like, you know, who wouldn't want to work at Google? And you're being treated unfairly by your manager or by co-workers and you felt like, "I never imagined being at this company. Let me just keep my mouth [shut]." Which a lot of us do. We're just like, "Let me keep my mouth shut," but Google is a company that I want to be at for a while, so it's like, what do you do? Especially--the easy thing, and, you know, when I hear people giving advice as far as, like, how to advocate for yourself, sometimes I hear people saying, "Just quit," and I think that that's ultimately what's gonna have to happen, but for some people that's not an option. If you're the sole bread-winner in your family and many people are relying on you and you're feeding many mouths, I think quitting sounds nice, but it's not practical, especially if you don't have anything else lined up. You just have to figure out--and then it goes back to the self-care. Because you're experiencing so much stress at work, what are you doing outside of work to sort of mitigate the stress that you're experiencing? And for me, that was one of the hardest years of my life because I had just moved to Connecticut. I was teaching in New York City, so I was commuting--it's only an hour commute on the train, but I was commuting to New York City every single day, and I was also teaching in Long Island, because they were--you know, ultimately they were underpaying me, they were overworking me, and then to supplement that I was so--there was a point in time where I was teaching seven courses, which, you know, anyone who teaches at the university level knows, like, three courses per semester is, like--three or four is, like, a very full courseload. Seven is, like, next level. I was teaching on Saturdays. It was, like, insane, the amount of classes that I was teaching, but my form of self-care was, you know, I was going to the gym a lot, and I was just--you know, a lot of fellowship, meeting up with friends, because, you know, the reality of it was that they were severely--you know, moving from universities, Zach, I was able to increase my salary by $30,000. They were underpaying me, like, a ridiculous amount, you know? And when I brought it up--that's something I did bring up when I was hired. I was like, "Why does my contract say this amount?" And the department chair was like, "Oh, well, you're paid based on a scale." It was a public university. So they base it off your teaching experience, your credentials, and because I didn't have a Ph.D. blah blah blah blah blah. So, you know, I did try to advocate for myself in that sense, but it was just kind of like, "Sorry, this is what you're gonna get paid," and I was just like, "Okay. Well, to supplement this, I'm gonna work at these other universities to get what I think that I deserve." So it was--it was really difficult. I think it's easy to say quit, but for many people quitting is not an option. So I think really going into what you're doing for self-care when you're experiencing this stress is important, and then I think planning your exit strategy. So if it's Google, maybe you want to have a year or two years or three years on your resume, but you know the environment is toxic. I wouldn't say just leave. I would say get that on your resume and build as many connections there as you can, but plan your exit strategy and save up money. If you really think that you have to leave at some point in the near future and you don't know if you'll have a backup job, then just plan, save up money. Make sure you do what you can so that, you know, when that day comes you're ready and it's not just like you made the decision off of a whim.Zach: It's just so true, right? 'Cause I know--I've seen it, and honestly I've done it, right? Like, where I've been in, like, really toxic environments, and I just left, but I left on--I didn't leave on the terms I wanted to leave on, right? So I wasn't prepared, right? I didn't have the financial backing that I wanted to have. You know, I just wasn't in the place that I wanted to be, but I finally just left. And that happens a lot, especially with our generation, right? Like, millennials, you know? 'Cause we'll just kind of bottle--especially what I've seen from black and brown folks is we'll just kind of bottle it up until we can't take it anymore, and then we'll just--you know, we'll leave. We'll just blow up and just quit, right? And you're right, like, that's not a sustainable way to function. I think the other point that you called out is super true, and I think it just really speaks to the different lived experiences of different folks, right, is that you said "Just quit." Like, for me, I'm a big advocate--I'll tell people to quit, right? But it's easy for me to tell people to quit when I'm a black American, my mom--I'm not sending money to my mom, right? Like, I don't have--it's just me and my wife, and my wife works. So it's like, if I quit my job, #1: I know that I could get another job very quickly, and so I'm projecting that on other people. Like, "You're only responsible for yourself," but that's not true. Right? Like, that's just not true. You have people--like, I have a really good friend who she's paying her mom's mortgage, her mom's health care. She's sending money back to her family in Nigeria. Like, she's doing all of these things on her very modest salary, and it's a toxic work environment, but she can't just leave. Janice: Mm-hmm, yeah. You know, sometimes people comment on my social media and they're like, "Why are we trying to change these white institutions? They don't want us there. Why don't we just build our own institutions?" And I'm all for that, but I think the reality of it is every single black and brown person is not going to be working in a black and brown-led institution, so what are we doing for those, you know, people of color who are not in those black-owned businesses? How are we creating an environment for them where that is sustainable? So I think that that's also an important point to look at, just really how are we overcoming, because the reality of it is that's just not what it is right now. You know, every single person is not at a black-owned company.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. I know, like, even when Living Corporate started, right, like, a couple of critiques that we got early was "Why are you trying to teach people how to navigate these white spaces as opposed to trying to help people to build their own?" I'm like, "Okay, look. First of all, we can look at the history of America and we can see that there's been historical pushes that black and brown people--" Black folks, we've been creating our own things since antebellum, okay? So we've been building our own churches, our own fraternities, sororities, our own businesses, our own communities, and there's been a consistent whitelash against that. Now, that doesn't mean that we're gonna stop. We don't stop, and black businesses and entrepreneurship continues to grow. However, we also know because of historical inequity--it's just the way that white supremacy and patriarchy are set up--that those institutions will never be as big as Amazon. I won't say never, but it will be a long time before they're as big as an Amazon or a Google or even a Facebook, right? Like, that's just not the way it works, and so--I believe that underrepresented folks helped build this country. It is 100% reasonable and fair to have discussions about what does it look like for us to thrive here. None of these things would exist without us, so it is reasonable--I don't think it's one or the other. I think it's both and, but it's a fine and right discussion and pursuit on what does it look like to thrive in these spaces. Like you said earlier, like, everyone's not gonna be working at a black and brown place. Every black and brown person is not gonna be an entrepreneur, just like every white person isn't an entrepreneur. So, you know, most of us are gonna work for somebody, so waht does it look like when you work for somebody and likely--because again, we're in America--it's likely going to be a majority-owned space. What does it look like for you to be successful there?Janice: Absolutely, yeah. I think that that's--it falls on both, because I think that--and that's probably a whole 'nother conversation, because even marginalized groups hold negative views about their own identities, for example. Like, there's many negative stereotypes that black people ourselves perpetuate, and even if we're leading a company, we may have colorism issues, or we may be [?]. So there's, like--even if you're in a black-owned institution, white supremacy can still be rampant, and I think us understanding that is important too. 'Cause I get those comments sometimes where, you know, people are like, "Why are you trying to do this and do that?" And even with companies--you know, some people have asked me why I allowed or accepted a partnership with Papa John's when the CEO is obviously--the former CEO, I'm sorry, is probably racist, and I said, you know, "If this company is going to try to make amends and is going to try--" And, you know, they've done other initiatives where they're trying to really show that now they're focused on diversity and inclusion. I'm not gonna say no, and I'm not gonna say, "I'll never take your money." They've hired a black woman as their chief diversity officer. They've hired a Ghandian man as their chief branding officer. Shaq is now on their board of directors. The CEO is no longer on the board. So they've been doing things. You know, they donate to HBCUs. So different things that I'm like, "Okay, I can accept that they're trying to fix what it is." But I think that it's tough, because it's like, do we forgive companies where they have many egregious actions that the CEO has committed? Do we forgive them, or do we just move on and just cancel them? I think that that's an important question to think about.Zach: It is, right? But I guess here's my challenge with that. So first of all, like, when you're talking about getting that money from Papa John's, the only thing I was thinking about was [cha-ching sfx]. Like, listen. [laughs] This is my whole thing, right? So I don't think that, like, we really talk about, like, how capitalist America is, right? Like, you need money to survive. Like, you need money to do anything, and so, you know, if you want to say, "Okay, well, I'm not gonna take this money from Papa John's," okay, so are you gonna take this money from Johnson & Johnson? Are you gonna take this money from--[laughs] like, all of America was built on slavery and oppression and exploitation of black and brown people, and people of color as well. So, like, including Asian-Americans too. So, like, we wouldn't have any of this. So, like, if you wanted to, like, again--I don't like saying the term "slippery slope," but my whole thing is, for me, if you're going to give me the bag--if you give me the bag, as long as you know that I'm not gonna adjust my message and you're not asking me to adjust my message or expecting me to adjust my message, I'ma take the bag, right? Now, there are certain groups, you know, that I'm not taking the bag from. Like, I've had people--you know what? This is, like, breaking news. I haven't told anybody on Living Corporate this. So, you know, someone actually hit me up and wanted to get Candace Owens on here, and I said--Janice: Really?Zach: Yeah, and I said no.Janice: Wow. That's interesting.Zach: I said no. I said, "You big buggin'."Janice: [?] Living Corporate. Interesting. What are your thoughts on--I have my own thoughts [both laughing] on her. I watched her--did you watch the Revolt summit that she was [in?]Zach: I did. I did see her up there being loud and wrong.Janice: Yes, yeah. But one thing that I didn't like was I think when you bring people with opposing views, you have to allow them the opportunity to at least speak, even, like--and my husband disagrees with me. He's like, "She's lying. She's full of lies. Why even give her the opportunity or the platform?" And I'm like, "Well, that's why they brought her up there."Zach: They brought her up there though. So if you're gonna bring 'em up there, then you gotta let 'em talk.Janice: Yeah, and that's why--and my husband's like, "No, but she's just blatantly lying," and I'm just like, "Yeah, but they brought her up there to speak," and I think that--that's interesting. Did you tell the person no? Or did you say you'll think about it?Zach: Oh, no, no. I said "Hell nah." Like, off the top. [laughs] All the Southern in me came out, 'cause it was like, "No," right? Like, I'm not doing that.Janice: Yeah. That's interesting. I wonder what she would speak to, because as far as I know she's not in corporate America. She just, you know, does these talks, or she has her YouTube channel and she--but, you know, that's interesting. [laughs]Zach: So then the same person was like, "Well, I'm also friends with Ben Carson. Would you like to have him on?" I was like, "No." I said, "No," and I said, "No," because I was like, "Look, one, that association is not making any sense." Like, "We're not--it's not gonna be a conversation. It's gonna be me tearing down some old black man. That's not cool." Because I literally don't agree with anything he's doing. So I was like--but this is my thing. So, like, at that level, I'm like, "No. I'm not taking a bag from them." But, like, a Papa John's? Yes, I'll take a bag from Papa John's. Facebook? Yes, I'll take a bag from Facebook.Janice: Yeah. Yeah, because I think the difference between Ben Carson and Candace Owens and Papa John's is that--and even Kanye West if you want to think about it--I haven't really seen any of them be apologetic. They're just like, "This is who I am," and they're gonna go on as many platforms as we'll let them speak. So it seems like your audience I don't think would be receptive to that and would just be like, you know, "Zach, you're just trying to get them on to get more clicks."Zach: For the clout, exactly. Janice: Exactly, so I think that with Papa John's and some of these other companies, they realize they've made a mistake and they're, like, trying to fix it, and I think that that's what would make me--I don't know. It's tough. I don't think we should just cancel companies where the CEO says or does something that is, you know--Zach: You need the bag. I think that goes back to what I was saying at the top. Like, look, we live in a capitalistic society. Like, if someone goes, "Hey, I messed up, and this is what I'm trying to do, and I really want to get around--" Like, "I'm trying to make moves," and whatever whatever, and there's a bag out there for you to--like, if the former CEO of Papa John's wanted to come on here and let me talk to him and grill him about why he said what he said, his background, what he's doing now to actually create an impact, like, today, if we could have that conversation, like, an accountable, frank conversation, and what advice he would give to other white senior leaders and executives on how to drive and be more inclusive and be more aware of their own biases, anti-blackness, et cetera, if we could have that type of conversation, he's more than welcome to come on the show.Janice: Absolutely.Zach: You see what I'm saying? The current inclusion and diversity leader for Papa John's? Of course they're welcome to come on the show, but like you said, like, someone coming on just to be like, "Nah, I'm just gonna be loud, proud and wrong," it's like... no. That's not gonna work.Janice: Yeah, exactly. So I think that sometimes we feel like--you know, I don't ever feel like "Am I selling out?" But sometimes, you know, I'll get comments like that, where people are like, "Why are you focused on what people of color should do?" You know, I did an interview and I wrote an article about some mistakes that women of color make in tech, and somebody wrote me and said, "Why would the onus fall on the women of color in tech and not on the company?" And I said, "I've written many articles on what companies can do to be more inclusive, but I think it's also important to best position yourself to be successful." I've made mistakes in my career, and I've done things where I could have--you know, even as far as, like, branding myself. I've had a LinkedIn for years, and within the last two and a half years I've started to really get into LinkedIn, but I could've really been more active and gotten more opportunities from it. And there's been times when at work I've been antisocial and I didn't want to hang out with anyone that wasn't like me, and I think that that is problematic when you're trying to advance in your organization. Sometimes you have to go to those events, you know, mingle a little bit, smile and do whatever. And Minda Harts talked about this in her book "The Memo," about, like, the importance of sort of fraternizing with your colleagues and how that can help you when you're trying to advance. So I think that even as a woman of color in the workplace, I've made mistakes, so I think that's important to recognize and not just be like, "It's all the company's fault."Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And it's interesting, we've gotten the same type of feedback, right? But it's like--my whole thought is look, we're all grown. There's a certain level of agency that we have as professionals in our career, and yes, we're gonna talk about the systemic structural challenges. I think we would be doing--like, it's intellectually dishonest and insulting to not pair that--like, it's not either or, it's both and. And not equally on either side, right? Like, there are larger responsibilities that these organizations have to create inclusive and equitable and diverse spaces, and--and--and there's also responsibilities and just things that we can be aware of as underrepresented people in how to navigate these spaces, right? And it's not about respectability politics. It's not about anything that's asking you to sacrifice your dignity or your self-worth. It's about just you being knowledgeable, because there are things that people in the majority understand and they know in navigating work that we just literally don't know, and so it's about--that type of knowledge is incredible, and I know the article you're referencing that you wrote. But again, I think they go hand-in-hand. Look, this has been an incredible conversation, Janice. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Janice: Well, I just hope that anyone listening to this can just look at what each of us can do in our lives to really deconstruct oppressive systems. So even if that's something as, like, retweeting or reposting something that--like, the stories of someone from a marginalized group. I think that's still moving the needle and amplifying their voice. So I try to do that as much as I can and just highlight people that deserve the shine and may not get the shine, because even in the D&I space there's a quote-unquote hierarchy, and I think certain people--you and I have discussed this--get a lot of shine while there's other people doing a lot of the ground work who aren't recognized as much. Not that you should do things for recognition, but I think that amplifying other people's voices is important. So yeah, that's pretty much it. Anyone who wants to discuss things more with me can just find me on Instagram. I'm @janicejnice, or add me on LinkedIn. I'm Janice Gassam on LinkedIn. We can chat more.Zach: Oh, my goodness. Well, first of all, you know we're gonna have all of your links as well as your Forbes profile so that people can check out all of your super dope articles, so we got you on that. Y'all, this has been Living Corporate, okay? So good conversation as always. We have the best guests. That's right, I'ma say it. We have the best guests. And, you know, we typically do a thing--we typically drop air horns, and if I remember we drop 'em at the top, but, you know, I forgot this time 'cause I got too excited 'cause we were just having this super dope conversation, so I'ma drop 'em right here--[air horns sfx]--just thank you very much. This has been a super cool conversation.Janice: Thank you so much, Zach. It's been a pleasure.Zach: No doubt. Listen, y'all. Living Corporate. Google us, right? You get on Google or--what's another, Yahoo? I don't know. I really just be on Google. This is not even an ad. [both laugh] But you get on Google or whatever your little search thing is and you type in Living Corporate, and you'll see us, man. We're out here. We're on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram @LivingCorporate, and we have all the domains, right? So www.living-corporate.com, please say the dash. Livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.us. We've got all the livingcorporates, Janice, except for livingcorporate--like, all the way with no dash--dot com, 'cause Australia has that domain, but we got the rest of 'em.Janice: Oh!Zach: I know, right? They own this corporate housing thing, but if you go on the SEO, like, we hopping over them though. If you Google Living Corporate, like, we're hopping over them now, so we--I'm just saying, the brand is getting stronger. Let's see here. I think that's it, y'all. You've been listening to Zach, and I've been having a dope conversation with Dr. Janice Gassam, speaker, educator, mover, shaker, name taker, edge snatcher, writer. What else, Janice?Janice: System deconstructor.Zach: Yes! System deconstructor. Disruptor. Come on, bars. Let's go. All right, all right.Janice: An intentional inclusionist. [laughs]Zach: Ooh! Wait a second, intentional inclusionist? [Flex bomb sfx] Okay, okay, okay. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach chats with Michelle Kim, co-founder and CEO of Awaken, in this episode centered around effectively creating inclusive leadership cultures. Michelle shares her journey into social justice work with us, including what led to the creation of Awaken, and she explains why she and her organization prioritize the needs of the most marginalized people in the room.Connect with Michelle - she's on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn!Check out Awaken's website and social media pages! Twitter, IG, FB, LinkedInYou can read Awaken's Medium blog by clicking here.Want to learn more about Build Tech We Trust? Here's their website and Twitter!Click here to read the Salon piece mentioned in the show.Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, everybody? It's Zach. Yes, again, it's me. Your boy, your host, your friend, your co-worker--maybe your co-worker, I don't know. If you work with me you know that I have this podcast, and, I mean, hopefully if you're checking it out, you know, hopefully you're having a good time. Shout-out to you. I'm not gonna say your name, but you know I'm talking to you. What's up? Look, you know what we do. We serve to amplify the voices of black and brown people at work, and we do that by talking to black and brown people in a variety of spaces, right? So these could be executives, public servants, activists, creatives, entrepreneurs, anybody, and we try to have these conversations in approachable and authentic ways, centering black and brown and otherwise underrepresented experiences and perspectives at work, and today we have with us a very special guest, Michelle Kim. Michelle is the founder and CEO of Awaken, a firm that empowers leaders and teams to lead inclusively and authentically through modern interactive and action-oriented workshops. Prior to Awaken, she had a successful consulting career working with C-suite and VP-level executives at high-performing companies around the world, helping them set ambitious business goals and align their teams to achieve them. While working in management consulting and technology start-ups, she experienced and validated first-hand the urgent need for modern, up-to-date education that empowers leaders to be more empathetic, agile, and culturally aware. Come on, now. Culturally aware. Pay attention. Michelle's experience in organizational change management, strategic goal setting and social justice activism set the groundwork for Awaken's multi-disciplinary and action-oriented learning programs. As an immigrant queer woman of color, Michelle has been a life-long social justice activist and community organizer. Michelle, what's going on? Welcome to the show.Michelle: Hey, thank you for having me. I'm so honored.[yay sfx]Zach: No doubt. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. Michelle: Those are the sound effects that you told me about. [laughing]Zach: Yes, yes. So for those who are newer to the show, I have a soundboard. I have all types of sounds on here, you know what I'm saying? You know, we add a few things from time to time, and, you know, just enjoy yourself. If you're new to this space, sit back, grab something to drink--it doesn't have to be alcoholic, you know? I respect your choices, your boundaries. But enjoy the soundscapes that are gonna be coming to you in this episode and many more to come.Michelle: I love the production.Zach: You know what? We gotta add a little bit of razzmatazz, just from time to time. So let's do this. You know, I gave a little bit of an intro, but for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Michelle: Sure. Hi, everyone. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Zach, for the intro. I think you covered a lot in my intro, but I think something that some people might be familiar with is actually my writing. I am an [?] writer. That's how I communicate my thoughts and perspectives to the world, in addition to facilitating workshops and doing speaking like this one or on stages all over the country. My passion is in really closing the gap between how we talk about social justice in our society today and how, you know, quote-unquote diversity and inclusion gets done, and quickly. So I think that there's a lot of work that we can do to help bridge the gap in understanding and awareness of how we communicate with each other. And also a fun fact about me is I'm a Virgo.Zach: Shout-out to Virgos. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. You said you're a Virgo?Michelle: I'm a Virgo.Zach: Man, shout-out to the Virgos one time. I'm also a Virgo. [air horns sfx] You know what I'm saying? They don't know about us like that. But please, tell us about your Virgoness.Michelle: You know, a lot of my friends who know me closely know my tendencies to be highly critical, but I also think that's what--I think being critical gets a bad rep, but I actually think that being critical is what makes me decent at my job. I also think that I have perfectionist tendencies, which I don't think is healthy, so I'm working on that. I like being organized. I am a huge fan of to-do lists. And I love--my love language is acts of service, so I think that also aligns with me being a Virgo. So I tend to, you know, go overboard when it comes to supporting other people, sometimes to a fault, 'cause I need to prioritize self-care and boundaries and all of that, but I'm not. I'm not perfect at that stuff.Zach: I just feel so--I feel so seen in you talking about yourself.Michelle: [laughing] Good. I'm glad, I'm glad. Virgos unite.Zach: They do. And honestly, like, you know, here we are, two people who over-extend for others sitting down, having a conversation that really helps to amplify one another. Isn't that something? [look at us sfx] Not me, you know what I'm saying?Michelle: That's right.Zach: [laughs] You were about to say something.Michelle: I said "Do you know who else is a Virgo?"Zach: Beyonce.Michelle: Beyonce's a Virgo. So whenever I feel like I need to be [?] about being a Virgo, I look to Beyonce for inspiration.[ow sfx]Zach: I'm right there with you. I mean, if she can do it, certainly I can do it. And, you know, my dad's a Virgo, so shout-out to my dad. He was born on the 6th, I was born on the 4th, and, you know, we're a lot alike. Okay, so yeah. Let's talk a little bit about your inspiration for social justice, and I really want to--'cause social justice is such a broad term. It's often even, like, used as a pejorative these days. So, like, when you say social justice in, like, your history, what does that look like for you?Michelle: That's a great question. My journey into social justice work really began with the lens of being a queer person. You know, I think my journey really started with my coming out. So I came out as queer and bisexual when I was 16. So I was in high school, and I was really confused. I didn't know about, you know, any social justice issues beyond--I think what people were talking about then were women's rights, and, you know, now I understand that to be white women's rights, but we'll get into that more. But when I came out as queer I didn't have a lot of resources, so I was really actively searching for community and support to make sense of who I was [and what I could do about my identity.] I was really fortunate to have found a great support group within my high school that was kind of an underground support group, and through that I found out about this program happening out of UC Santa Barbara where they were doing youth activism summer camp kind of stuff for LGBTQ young people. So that was my entryway into social justice work, and that's where I learned how to organize, how to, you know, stage protests and knowing my rights as a student activist, and that's where I learned about social justice activism and writers who wrote about social justice, like Audre Lorde. So that was my entryway into understanding social justice, is through the frame of my being queer and learning from queer trans activists, also young people, and that's also where I learned about the intersections of being queer and also being a person of color and all of the nuances of the different identities and the intersections of different types of marginalization and oppression and how often times they all come from the same root and source of, you know, patriarchy or white supremacy. So, you know, I'm throwing a lot of [?] here, but really at the end of it, for me social justice is about, you know, understanding that we're all in this struggle together, and in order for us to achieve equity and equality and justice that we need to have solidarity in this frame of social justice.Zach: And so I'm really curious, right? Let me talk to you a little bit about my perspective, it being singular and limited, right? So I don't believe this is the way it is. This has been, like, my perception as I look--a cishet black man, Christian black man, looking across this, like, D&I space, right? Like, I'm seeing, like, different camps and groups, right? So I see this group that is largely white and who--like, they're invited to a lot of the fancy things, but they're not necessarily credentialed other than being in a certain social strata, but they're not really credentialed in any type of lived experience, nor are they credentialed in any specific level of education, but they're credentialed in, like, certain experiences from, like, again, just being in certain spaces, right, that are afforded to them because of their class and race. I then see another group of people that are very much so, like, activists. Like, they're on the street. If they're using social media, it's to mobilize something tangible. It's to affect a change in some type of grassroots community level. And then I see, like, another group that is kind of--like, they're in the corporate space and they're doing a few things, but they're not necessarily really, like, enacting anything beyond whatever the company needs them to do to kind of mitigate litigious risk, but I think--I'm kind of seeing, like, tensions against each of these groups. I'm curious about, like, your perspective, considering your social activist background and the work you do today. Do you see similar camps in the space, and, like, if not, what are you seeing? Do you think I'm oversimplifying kind of, like, the various camps and groups, or, like, what's your perspective on that?Michelle: I don't think you're oversimplifying per se, 'cause I do see what you're saying. I hear you in terms of there being different--because identities [are?] also a different approach to doing diversity and inclusion work inside the workplace. I think--a couple things that I want to clarify in terms of my beliefs is that I don't think anyone can truly call themselves a D&I expert. I certainly don't call myself a D&I expert, because I believe fundamentally diversity and inclusion is about lived experiences, so it's all about how we make sense of our lived experiences in relation to the systems that we inhabit, so I think everybody's an expert in their own lived experience, and I can't ever claim that I'm an expert in your life, right? So I think that's one belief that I have, that we all are experts in our owned lived experiences. And then another belief that I have is that, you know, social justice activism isn't just about being out in the street and marching and protesting. You know, there's a lot of activism happening inside of workplaces today as well through corporate activism, but also just daily acts of survival for a lot of folks, especially black and brown people, underrepresented people of color and trans and queer people inside workplaces. I think what they're doing, just by mere survival and speaking up when they can, is an act of activism. I think there is a greater sense of responsibility that I'd love for D&I professionals to have, whether they're inside or outside of the workplaces, in really making sense of how change happens and pushing the boundaries to serve the most marginalized people in the room. I think that's where my criticality comes in, when you start to talk about mostly white--I think I've seen a lot of white women take up the role of head of D&I. That's where I start to question whether, you know, are they understanding the positionality of being a white person, doing this work inside workplaces, holding a position of power? And, you know, I start to question sort of how change is being [assisted?] inside companies while prioritizing the needs of the most marginalized people. So I do think that people without the social justice frame, as in--you know, I think the root of my education and the foundation of my social justice education that I've gotten from, you know, activists who were organizers at the community level, what they've taught me is that in order for us to enact change, we need community, we need solidarity, and we need to approach everything through the lens of centering the most marginalized people and their needs, 'cause then everybody in-between and all of us will rise together. So that is sort of my approach when it comes to education or policies, whatever organizational design we're talking about. If we can center the most marginalized people, then everybody else will benefit. So that's the social justice framing that I use to approach all of my work, but I think I see some D&I people in the corporate space doing D&I work as if this is a new discipline that's not tied to social justice at all, right? That this is--in a vacuum, this is just about recruiting the most, you know, diverse set of candidates, that it's about retaining those people once they get there, but it's sort of in a vacuum without the understanding of systemic issues and history that has fueled D&I to exist in the first place. I think that's my biggest sort of criticism about how D&I gets done in the corporate space today.Zach: And I get that, right? It resonates with me, which is why I was so excited, because I really enjoyed--like, I've read some of your written work, and of course I follow you on social media. I love what Awaken is doing, right? And really, based on what you're sharing, I'm curious, how does that translate into the work that Awaken does? Because everything you're saying, I'm hearing it, right? But I guess I'm trying to understand--how does that effectively translate in majority-white spaces in the work that--and I'm making an assumption that the spaces that you engage are largely white. If they're not correct me, but from what I'm looking at it seems like the spaces are largely white, and it seems to be that when I talk to other D&I professionals, the subtext of a lot of the work, and even some of the, like, backhanded critique that I've received--because I'm often times received as "Well, you're passionate, but you're not really credentialed, right?" Like, "You're a person of color and you have a certain lived experience, but, you know, you don't have the same foundation that I may have as a quote-unquote D&I expert, so your point of view only goes so far," or it's only limited to the black experience. There seems to be, like, a subtext of "Let's not make people too uncomfortable," but the work that you're talking about in centering underrepresented or the most marginalized, that--I feel as if the argument could be made that you're automatically making other people uncomfortable. So again, just what does all of that look like as it translates into your work with Awaken?Michelle: Yeah, that's a great question. And I'm also so curious about these credentials, right? [both laughing] 'Cause I see these credential programs or certification programs. Like, what are you certifying people for? I'm so curious. I think there are absolutely some skills that we can learn, whether that's facilitation or curriculum development or policy design, that we can get better at, but in terms of understanding other people's lived experiences and the identities that folks hold and the complexities that come with that, I don't know if we can truly ever be credentialed enough to be, you know, discounting other people's experiences and opinions. So that's my perspective on it. And in terms of how our approach translates into our work, you know, I think we can talk about sort of the founding story, why we were created in the first place. So, you know, after having done organizing work when I was in high school and college, I decided to pursue a career in, you know, the for-profit space because I needed to make money, let's be real, and I was told actually by my activist mentors, who have gone onto pursuing social justice careers as career organizers and non-profit folks, that they were also experiencing very sort of similar harm, because even non-profits are predominantly led by white people, right? So I think the issues that we think are non-existent in progressive--quote-unquote "more progressive" spaces, they continue to exist, while folks are not making enough money to make ends meet. So--[straight up sfx]Michelle: [laughs] I love the sound effects. Knowing that and knowing my situation as a--you know, I grew up low-income, and I needed money to support my family. The advice I got from my mentors was "Hey, you can create change in certain spaces." They warned me about the toxic culture, but I went in sort of ignorant about what I was getting myself into. So I also really am grateful for my journey, having started my career in management consulting and in tech. I think I have experienced a lot of different things that I wasn't ready for but I'm grateful for nonetheless. But when I entered in those spaces, I was exposed to and I searched for D&I spaces, right? Because I thought that that was what I knew to be social justice work. So when I joined an employee resource group, I was, you know, disappointed at the level of conversations that were being had around what it means to be inclusive, what it means to be a diverse place, and I was surprised and disappointed and disillusioned by what companies were talking about as D&I was quite surface-level and marketing-oriented rather than real actionable behavioral change or cultural change that were being modeled by leaders of the company. So, you know, I was going through different workshops and trainings and just kept feeling like I was not seeing the level of conversations that actually needed to take place in these spaces, and it felt really safe. It felt safe. It felt white-washed. It felt diluted. As, you know, somebody who was just sitting in the room and constantly challenging the facilitator, I felt like I was doing all of the work. [Zach laughs] And after the [?] is over, you know, unfortunately the burden of re-educating other people who went through the workshop who now thinks that they are quote-unquote "woke" or who say that they checked the box, right? "Okay, we went through this unconscious bias training, so now we're good. Now I'm back to being a progressive person who cares about this issue." [Zach laughs] You know, [it was?] a challenge to really think differently, but the burden of their action, their unchanging behavior, their unawareness, and they're now feeling like they know what they're talking about, falls on the most marginalized people in the room, and I think that was a frustration that kept coming up for me as I was going through different types of trainings, whether that was done by external vendors or internal people, that people weren't pushing people enough, and I genuinely felt the need for a compassionate space for uncomfortable conversations, and that's our mission statement, to create a compassionate space for uncomfortable conversations to developing inclusive leaders and teams, and the way that we do that is by centering the needs of the most marginalized people, meaning we don't pat on ourselves on the back when a workshop goes well from the perspective of a bunch of white men saying that that workshop was great, you know? That may be true, but if, you know, the one black person in the room says that that workshop wasn't good while a bunch of white people say that the workshop was great, we don't pat ourselves on the back for that, right? But if we can support the most marginalized people in the room, you know, in tech and also in many other spaces as predominantly black and brown folks, trans, queer, people of color, if they give us the stamp of approval, if they feel like they were seen and heard and lifted and that they didn't have to do all the work, that's success for us, right? So by designing our curriculum to speak truth to them and to, you know, have that frame of "Can we lessen the burden on people who are the most marginalized in these spaces by saying the things that they can't say because there are too many risks and repercussions that they fear?" That's our job, and I don't think enough D&I practitioners out there are taking that approach, because, you know, if they're internal, their job is at risk. I get that. So I think as a third-party, we coming in--we have a different level of risk that we get to take because we don't have that kind of repercussion that we need to worry about, besides not being able to come back to that place again.Zach: Right. And, I mean, at that point that, you know, they don't let you back, I mean, you already got the bag anyway, so... [cha-ching sfx] You know? Michelle: [laughs] Well, and usually we can come back, because we don't often take on one-off workshops. I think that approach is pretty harmful, and, you know, companies come to us and say, "Hey, we just want to do a one-day, like, [?]." We tend to say no to those engagements because we really believe in delivering impact and working with people who are genuinely interested in real change. So, you know, I think the mistake people make is thinking that meeting people where they're at needs to be done by diluting the message. I don't think that's true. You can meet people where they're at with compassion and criticality. So you don't have to coddle people, but I think you can be compacted and make your content accessible for folks that they understand and they can move along the journey while feeling and embracing some tension and discomfort that comes with challenging their beliefs.Zach: So it's funny, because you see, like, even in, like, our current political tone and tambor today from, like, mainstream media, it's still around, like, the idea of respectability and quote-unquote kindness, kind of pushing against this idea of, like, call-out culture or just, like, keeping it real, like, just saying how things are, and it's interesting, and I hear what you're saying about, like, coddling versus accessibility. Do you have an example of what it looks like to effectively call something for what it is while at the same time making it accessible for folks to actually grasp and understand. Like, I don't think there's enough work that you could do to cater to or mitigate against fragility, but I would love to hear, like, kind of what Awaken does and, like, what that looks like for you.Michelle: Mm-hmm. Hm, let me think of an example. I think that's a great question, and I'd love to be able to contextualize it just a little though with an example. I think--I don't know why this example keeps coming up in my head. I think it's because we're designing a curriculum right now around inclusive interviewing practices, and one of the common questions that comes up is this idea of not lowering the bar and hiring in this sort of notion of meritocracy, and I think, you know, one way to approach that is really sort of making the person who said that feel like they don't know what they're talking about and, you know, calling them racist and all of that... I think is one way. [both laugh] I think another way could be really helping unpack why meritocracy doesn't currently exist, even though that is an ideal that we can strive for together, and how people who are currently in companies today may not have been hired purely based on merit. Zach: And how do you prove that though?Michelle: How do you prove that?Zach: Yeah.Michelle: I think there's a lot of data that actually backs up the claim around how meritocracy doesn't exist. I mean, what we often talk about is that, you know, meritocracy is a concept that was created as a vision that we can all work toward, but we falsely believe that right now there is sort of meritocracy in a sense, but there's lots of data that shows that actually there's a lot of biases in the hiring process, whether it's from the referral stage or, you know, the interview stage or the deliberation stage. I think there's a lot of data that actually shows discrepancies in the ways that we make decisions, and I think, you know, calling that out specifically I think is really helpful. I think the harmful alternative of sort of diluting that fact of, you know, not having meritocracy is that I have sometimes heard, you know, folks explain that to people in a way that actually equates hiring people of color or women as lowering the bar and that being sort of the, you know, unfortunate short-term solution. Like, yeah, but we need to hire more people of color and women, so, you know, we want to make sure that we are getting that quota filled. So I think there's, like, a lot of weird ways of people explaining difficult concepts to make people feel comfortable, because the discomfort in this conversation is the fact that you may not have been hired based on your merit, right? I think that's the tension, is that if we debunk meritocracy, people who have these jobs in higher-paying positions, they are feeling attacked because they feel like they warrant--they didn't get to where they are purely based on merit, and recognizing that they've had privileges that weren't afforded to another demographic groups, I think that in and of itself is the discomfort, and I think a lot of folks have a hard time calling that out, because we're then directly sort of highlighting the fact this may be an awful position that they're in. And I think talking about privilege in general is something that's really difficult for people. It's not an easy topic for any of us to really grapple with, but I think if we can't have those tougher conversations where we are directly highlighting and shining light on the fact that, you know, there are--"Yes, we worked hard, and there are struggles that we didn't have to go through to get to where they are." I think if that conversation doesn't happen, it would be a huge miss.Zach: You know, Michelle, when you and I first spoke, you know--we do our thing, we try to get to know each other first, and then we do the episode. A little bit of background behind the scenes for y'all, but anyway, when you and I first spoke we talked about people of color and that term, right? And we had conversations about Living Corporate and how, you know, we don't really use the term "people of color," we say black and brown. And then you and I had a conversation about how you don't really consider, or you don't count, Asian-American or, like, that space, East Asian, in the "people of color" category. Can you talk to me a little bit more about that?Michelle: Yeah. I think that's a great question. So I think, just to clarify, I do count Asians as a part of the people of color community, but I think there's context that we need to put into place whenever we're using the term. So I think the term people of color is a useful term when we're talking specifically about non-white people in the context of talking about white supremacy and how that impacts all people who are not white who experience racism and other forms of oppression because of their race. Where I don't feel comfortable using the term people of color is when we're discussing specific issues that impact black and brown communities. For example, when we're talking about police brutality or the murders of black trans women, I think it's really important for us to be specific about who we're talking about, because as an East Asian person, I don't have the same type of fear or risk when I'm around police. I think that is really important for us to specify, and I think that understanding around how there are very specific forms of racism, like anti-black racism. I think that clarity is so needed in having this conversation in a more effective way, and also for, you know, Asian-American folks to be able to show up in solidarity with folks who are experiencing very specific forms of marginalization. Zach: I just... you know, one sound we don't have on the soundboard is, like, finger snaps. [snapping fingers] But I'ma put these in there. Yeah, I love it. And it's interesting because, you know, we're moving at the speed of the Internet when it comes to a lot of this stuff, right? And certain things become trendy or become--I don't know. They kind of just catch fire, and I think the term people of color, it has a place, and I've seen it be used interchangably when people are just talking about black folk, right? It's like, "Why are we using that term right now when--" If we're really talking about something targeted for black Americans, if we're talking about something that's targeted for Latinx trans Americans--these groups, as niche or as just unique or small as they may seem to you, these represent actual human beings. So I think it's great that we're using them, but sometimes for me--it sometimes almost gets used as, like, a catch-all, and you end up erasing a lot of identities and experiences and points of view.Michelle: Totally, and I think if we can't be specific about the actual issue, then how can we solution around it, right? If we can't name what the actual issue is? It's not police brutality against all people of color, right? It's [?] against black and brown people specifically, you know? People who are seen as a quote-unquote "threat" to cops. I think it's really important for us to get specific around that so that we can solution around it, because it wouldn't make sense for us to do--you know, to solve for all people of color experiencing police brutality because that's not true. I think, you know, when we talk about black maternal [debts?], that's not happening to Asian-Americans that it's happening to black folks who are giving birth. So, you know, I think specificity is important for solutioning the right outcomes, and also, like you said, it doesn't erase people's experiences. I think tech is starting to incorporate more of the term around underrepresented POC, because, you know, Asian-Americans are overrepresented in many tech companies, but, you know, Asian-American also, similar to POC, is a very broad terminology, so I'd love to be able to see some dis-aggregated terms that we can use to also talk about underrepresented Asian-Americans. But yeah, I think specific language is always helpful in most cases, and I think there's also purpose to the term people of color when we can really mobilize and build a coalition across all people of color.Zach: I think it's just so interesting. I do think a function of white supremacy is, like, keeping things as surface as possible so that--because the more surface you can be, like, to your point, the less specific and targeted you can be in your solutioning, and if you're not targeting your solutioning, then you're not really gonna be able to affect true change. 'Cause, you know, and the last thing about this in terms of, like, just keeping things general and grouping people all together is, like--I know that in Europe there's a term that's called... it's black--it's like people of color to the max, right? So it's called "BAM," black, Asian, and Middle-Eastern. Like, what is that? Michelle, like, that's--that is nuts. You can't--huh? Like, when someone told me that--like, I just learned about this maybe, I don't know, like, a couple months ago. Like, a colleague told me, and I said, "How is that possible?" Like, those are thousands of identities and experiences and cultures and languages and histories. Like, how are you just going to just lump--so you're just gonna take all the non-white people and put 'em in one big cluster? Huh? Considering the history of, like, colonialism and, like--oh, my gosh. Like, that's nuts. You can't do that. And so, anyway... okay, okay, so from this conversation, what I'm hearing, I don't think that we always give, like, members of the majority enough credit in their ability to have an honest conversation when it's framed effectively, right? I think a lot of times it's kind of like, "Well, we don't want to bring that up because then that makes people uncomfortable," or "We don't want to bring that up because then they shut off," and it's like... eh. I mean, yes, people are fragile, but, like, come on. We've got to be able to have some type of--some level of authentic conversation around something. So that's--Michelle: Yeah. I wouldn't go as far as giving them credit. [both laughing] You know? I think there is a reason why--you know, why people are hesitant to have that conversation. I think it's because of the backlash. It's because of the fragility and it's because of [?] and also frankly the repercussions that people face. So I think while we sort of finesse the way that we deliver certain messages without losing the criticality but also having compassion and being accessible, what we also need to be doing is building the resiliency on the part of the dominant or the privileged group so that we can receive that information and check their fragility or check their defensiveness, and I think that education needs to be more prioritized than the other stuff.Zach: I agree, and thank you. Thank you for pushing back. [laughing] I do think there's a low level of fluency and stamina, right, when it comes to these conversations, and it's interesting because I just read an article, and it was published on Salon, and it was called "Diversity is for white people: the big lie behind a well-intended word." Have you read that yet?Michelle: I have not.Zach: Yo, I'ma send this to you. But it's just interesting because it's really this conversation in a really tactful rant form just around, like, how D&I is often phrased today, and it's, like, phrased with, like, white comfort in mind as opposed to the perspective and experiences of the marginalized in mind, and so I just find that very interesting. Okay, so look, you're the first East Asian-American person that we've had on the show, and so first of all, you know what I'm saying, shout-out to you. [air horns sfx] You know, shout-out to you for that and just being here, you know? [coin sfx] Michelle: Thank you for having me. I'm honored.Zach: Nah, I'm honored. I mean, I'm excited. I think there's this--like, despite civil rights history and all of the work especially done, like, within California, L.A., Oakland, in the '60s, and of course, like, during the era of the Black Panthers, there's this stereotype that Asian-Americans don't really care about social justice. Like, have you heard this before, and, like, why do you think that that is?Michelle: Yeah. Yes, I have heard that before, and I continue to hear it quite often. I think something that I hear when I meet people for the first time and I talk about what I do and we get to know each other a bit better, a weird sort of form of compliment or they think it's a compliment that they pay me is this fact that, you know, I'm one of the unique ones, right? Like, "Oh, wow. I've never met another Asian person who is like you," or "I'm so glad you're doing this work, because we need more Asian people doing this," and I have mixed emotions about that, because while I appreciate the acknowledgement of the work, I think that there's also this continuing erasure of the historical work that different Asian-American activists have done, whether that's the labor movement that was led by Filipino activists or folks marching [?] or even current activists working as prison abolistionists who are Asian-American racial justice organizer or disability justice organizers like [?], queer trans [?] activists. I think there's a lot of folks who are doing really radical work who continually get erased, so it leaves sort of a bitter taste in my mouth when I hear that because I think that with that simple sentiment we're erasing so much of history and current work that's being done. I also think that some of that comment is valid in that, you know, I do see a lot more work that can be done on the part of Asian-Americans specifically. You know, East Asians in tech is sort of the reputation that I hear about where people can be more active in doing D&I work or social justice work, and I think there's a real sort of lack of awareness or even the sense of solidarity amongst Asian-Americans in what their place is, like, what our place is in this conversation around social justice activism. So I think it's a complex topic. I do think that we can do more. I think all groups can do more, and I think there's a serious lack of education around Asian-American history and sort of--even the current facts around, you know, the struggles that Asian-Americans are going through, that if more Asians knew about that and if more Asian folks found commonality between our oppression and other marginalized communities' depression that we may be able to build a coalition to do more amazing work.Zach: One, thank you for--that's a really thoughtful answer. All of your answers have been very thoughtful. It's almost like you're very... awake. [haha sfx] What's really interesting, to your point around just, like, history, is as much as the Black Panthers--I really think that the way that we think about--and when I say we, I mean just, like, Americans, right? Like, the way that Americans categorize and think about the Black Panthers has to be, like, some of the most effective example of American government propaganda, right? Like, we think of Black Panthers as the equivalent of the KKK, like, the black equivalent, like they're these terrorists and that it's just full of these angry black people, and we don't think about the fact that Richard Aoki was--he was a founding member of the Black Panthers, right? Asian-American. And he's not, like, this ancient figure. Like, he passed away in 2009, but we don't really talk about that, and I'm really curious as to--'cause, like, the Black Panther Party, and, like--not the new Black Panther Party, but the initial, original Black Panther Party was not, like, hundreds of years ago, and so it's just so interesting how we are uneducated, right? We're uneducated just on civil rights history, and we're certainly--I don't remember in high school or in college hearing anything about Asian-American participation or engagement in the civil rights movement. That was not anything that I remember being taught, nor do I remember that being something that was, like, readily available for me to learn, you know?Michelle: Right. And I think that lack of education is within the Asian-American community itself, right? I think I feel like sometimes I know more about, you know, black history than my own sort of Asian-American history here in the U.S., and I'm an immigrant, so I think I grew up with a different set of history lessons. So there's a lot of catching up for me to do as well, and I think that the--I mean, even in the school system, I'm sure you've been talking to your guests around the lack of real education around what really happened in history too, right? Not just for Asian-Americans, but for, you know, black Americans and, you know, Latinx Americans. I think there's a lot of, you know, untrue history that's being taught to our youth, which is problem #1, and I also think there's a lot of internalized racism and oppression that exists in the Asian-American community, and there's a lot of complex topics that I don't know if we have time to get into, but things like the--Zach: Well, pick one. Let's go. I have time.Michelle: You know, the myth of Asians being closer to white people and the sort of model minority myth, and that's a very prevalent stereotype, and I think there's a lot of interrogating that we need to do when we talk about those things around, "Well, who were the initial group of Asian-Americans that were allowed to come to the country? What were the ramifications of that? What are some of the current statistics that we can talk about, even in the workplace, around Asian-Americans being the least likely group to advance to senior leadership positions even though they are overrepresented in industries like tech and, you know, [?] in an analyst position?" "How does that impact the continuing stereotypes and narratives around Asian-Americans?" Being good at math, and, you know, I think there's a lot of complex, intertwined stories that we tell about our people, Asian-Americans, and also we're combining an entire continent when talking about Asian-Americans as this monolith of a people when if we were to dis-aggregate that data, there's actually a ton of lessons to be learned around who's actually marginalized within the Asian-American community, right? I recently learned that 1 in 7--I think that's the stat--1 in 7 Asian-Americans are undocumented, and they're the fastest-growing population that's undocumented in the United States currently, but we don't hear about that, right? We don't hear about that narrative, and I think the way that white supremacy works is this sort of untrue and erasing of different stories that make the people of color the collective question and also not able to work alongside each other, and I think that's the--the most difficult thing that I see in the sort of solidarity that we need to be able to move the needle on this work is that there's so much of a lack of education on everyone's part, including myself, that we need to do a lot of work to be able to, you know, truly practice that solidarity with each other.Zach: Man. You know, and, like, Michelle, you've been just casually dropping just bombs, like, this whole conversation, right? So I just gotta give you at least one. [Flex bomb sfx] 'Cause it's been ridiculous. But one thing you said--and it brought something back to my memory. So I'm not gonna say the consulting firm. If y'all want to look on my LinkedIn, y'all can make a guess as to where this was. It's not the one that I'm at right now, but I'll never forget, Michelle, I was at a team dinner--this was some years ago--and we were talking about... so, you know, I'm at the table, and then there's senior leaders, and then there's, like, super senior leaders, and there's me, and I was, like, a junior-level person at this point in time, right? This was, like, five or six years ago. And so I'm a pretty junior person, and there's somebody in there talking about this one particular employee, and they said, "Oh, Insert Name Here is the perfect little Asian. He just does exactly what I tell him to do. He does his work and then he goes home." And I remember I was just eating my dinner--I literally stopped, I looked at the person who said it and was like, "Oh, my God. I can't believe you just said that." And she looked at me, and then you could tell that she, like, quickly averted her eyes and was kind of, like, "Oop--" You know, like, she got caught, but just that idea of this subservient just worker bee that just does whatever I tell them to do... that just stuck with me forever. I was like, "Oh, my gosh." Like, that's not--I'm still flabbergasted by that, as you can tell, and I told my coach. I said, "Hey, this is not okay," right? I said, "This is what happened." And they were like, "Oh, well, you shouldn't have heard that." I was like, "No, no, no. It's not about me shouldn't have hearing it. Like, they shouldn't have said that, but beyond them saying it, they shouldn't believe that." So yeah, I just wanted to share that. Like, I'll never forget me hearing that. And, like, they were talking about the person like they were a--you know, like a resource, and, you know, they call talent that in consulting, resources, but in a genuine, like, piece of property [way], right? And it makes you just question, like, "Well, damn, okay. You felt comfortable enough to say this at a team dinner." And it was a white woman, by the way. But, like, you felt comfortable enough saying this in, like, a mixed group at a team dinner. Like, God forbid, what are you saying about me, what are you saying about other people, what are you saying about this person in, like, more private settings, you know what I mean?Michelle: Right. Well, the scary thing though is that sometimes that kind of trope or narrative is almost seen as a compliment, as if we should be celebrating that. "Well, you know, why is it so bad for us to say Asians are good workers or Asians are good at following orders?" And what have you. I think sometimes that trope gets weaponized to divide the people of color community even further, which is--you know, I think we saw that divide also in the recent affirmative action case, right, where Asian-Americans--there were arguments on both sides around how Asians are being discriminated against for getting good grades and all of that kind of unfortunate, annoying [?], but that's a conversation for another time.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And to be specific for our listeners who may not be abreast, recently that was the affirmative action case that went before Harvard, correct?Michelle: Correct.Zach: Yeah, and so it was interesting--so, like my perspective, as I was kind of, like, reading and understanding it was, like, some people were saying--so I'm on this app called Fishbowl... this is not an ad, but Fishbowl is, like, this anonymous posting app for consultants and other, like, different industry professionals, and people on there were talking about the case, and so basically the commentary was, "Yeah, you're excluding us and you're letting in these black and brown people who aren't smart enough to get in, but you're trying to fill in these racial quotas." And I was like, "Wow." I don't think that that's the point, and I think the data showed that the people who are the most advantaged by this current system of applications and acceptances were legacy students, right? It was people that--but again, like, to your point, then you'd see people arguing, then you'd see black and brown people arguing with Asian-Americans about, you know, "Well, we deserve to be here--" Again, I think that's--white supremacy is winning again when we start having those types of... when it starts devolving in that way, you know what I mean?Michelle: Right, exactly. And I think it also comes from the fact that a lot of people don't understand the point of affirmative action and why it got started in the first place. It's almost like people think that we're just trying to fill quotas or, you know, have diversity for the sake of diversity, but I think this is where the concept of D&I falls short 'cause we're not actually ever talking about justice and correcting past mistakes or historical oppression. So I think there's a lot of conversations that we need to have that we're not having right now around this concept of justice and sort of historical wrong-doings being corrected with some type of mechanism, and I think similar conversations, you know, are being had in tech and other industries where they're focused on quote-unquote "diversity recruiting" where folks are talking about that concept of, you know, lowering the bar for the sake of diversity and, like, all of that stuff I feel like are interconnected and they're just happening in different spheres, and I think for me it's always coming back to the lack of basic communication around history and social justice concepts and people not understanding how all of these struggles are connected. I think there's just a lot of room for improvement in how we're talking about these issues.Zach: You know, we gotta have you back to talk about the connection--like, to really talk about justice in diversity, equity and inclusion work, because, like, I have all these questions, but I want to respect your time. [both laugh] So let's do this. First of all, let's make sure we have you back. We definitely consider you a friend of the pod.Michelle: Thank you.Zach: Yeah, no, straight up. So thank you for being here with us today. Now, look, y'all--now, I don't know what else y'all want from me. I'm talking to the audience now. You know, look, we come at y'all, we bring y'all some amazing guests, you know, we're having these really dope conversations. I mean, [what more do you want from me? sfx] what more do you want? Like, I'm not even trying to martyr myself. I'm just saying, like, "What do you want?" And when I say me, I mean Living Corporate. Like, you see this guest. Michelle Kim is a beast. Like, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation. Now, look, before we get out of here though, Michelle, I have just a couple more questions. First of all, where can people learn more about Awaken?Michelle: You can learn more about Awaken at our website, www.visionawaken.com. You can also follow on Twitter @AwakenCo and our blog. Please check out our blog on Medium, www.medium.com/Awaken-blog. I'm all on Twitter, I'm on LinkedIn. You can follow me. I also have an Instagram. So all of the social media platforms there's gonna be me or Awaken, so please follow us and subscribe to our newsletter.Zach: All right, y'all. Now, look, she said all the stuff. Mm-mm, hold on, 'cause you're probably driving or you're doing something, you know? You're in your car or maybe you're typing something up on your phone, but what I really need y'all to do is I need you to stop... [record scratch sfx] and check out the links in the show notes, okay? Make sure y'all hit up all those things. I want y'all clicking on them links like [blatblatblatblat sfx]. You know, check them out, okay? We'll make sure we have everything right there for you. Now, Michelle, any shout-outs or parting words before you get out of here?Michelle: Well, I think we're living in a really interesting time right now. There's a lot going on in so many different communities and our society, so my shout-out is to everyone who is doing their best to survive and to thrive to take care of themselves, to stay vigiliant, to educate themselves, and to be in community with people that care about you. I think that's so important in this climate. One last shout-out I want to give is to this new initiative that I'm a part of called Build Tech We Trust. It's a coalition of different CEOs and tech leaders who have come together to say enough is enough around white supremacy spreading online on social media platforms and other tech platforms. It was founded by Y-Vonne Hutchinson and Karla Monterroso of Code2040, and check out our work. We're doing some really important work to build coalition around this issue of radicalization happening on tech platforms. So Build Tech We Trust, and I can send you the URL so you can link it.Zach: Please do. Y'all, this has been--first of all, Michelle, again, thank you. Great conversation. We look forward to having you back, because we will be having you back. If you would like to come back--it's not a directive, you have agency. Michelle: [laughing] Of course. I'd love to. I'd be honored.Zach: Okay, super cool. Listen, y'all. This has been the Living Corporate podcast. You know, make sure you check us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram @LivingCorporate, and then--now, the websites. Now, look, y'all hear me rattle off all these websites every time - livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.net, right? Livingcorporate.us I think we even have. We have every livingcorporate, Michelle, except livingcorporate.com, but we do have living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. Now, if you have any questions or any feedback for the show, just hit us up. We're at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Hit us up on DM. All of our DMs are wide open for your convenience. That's right. We take on the emotional labor of keeping our DMs open so that you can reach out to us, okay? So you hit us up and you let us know if you need anything. If there's anything else, just Google us, right? Type in Living Corporate on your browser. We're gonna pop up. We're on all the different streaming mediums. Make sure to tell your momma about Living Corporate, your cousin, or your weird uncle, or your racist uncle at Thanksgiving. So you make sure you--come on, shoot the link over. We got all kinds of stuff on there, so we out here, okay? What else? I think that's it. Shout-out to Aaron [thank you], shout-out to all the listeners, and God bless y'all. Or, you know what I'm saying, bless y'all, 'cause I'm not trying to offend anybody, but bless y'all, okay? And what else? I think that's it. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Michelle Kim, founder, educator, activist, public speaker, and of course CEO of Awaken. Catch y'all next time. Peace.

Zach and Ade celebrate Living Corporate's 1-year anniversary in this very special episode! They reflect on everything that's led up to this point, read a few user reviews, and so much more. Ade also shares her personal journey navigating the STEM field for the first time.Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: And you're listening to Living Corporate. Now, listen, it's a really--what's the word? A special episode, and I feel like there should be, like, some "Tony! Toni! Toné!" playing. Ade: Why though?Zach: It's our anniversary. Not you and I. Well, in certain ways, yeah. Really the anniversary--yeah, but the anniversary of the show, right? Like, we've crossed the 1-year mark as a podcast, as an organization. That's pretty cool, right? Ade: It's pretty dope. I think this is the longest-running creative project I've ever been involved with, which is saying something, so shout-out to us. Zach: Man, super agree. Definitely shout-out to us, and yes, it's definitely been--definitely the longest engagement--I keep on using all of these consultancy words, and it's funny because my boss at my job keeps on talking to me--shout-out Juliet. I see you. Keeps telling me not to use all these consultancy words, but see, what's hard for, like, me to articulate at work is that I genuinely like words, but I'm still kind of--you know, I don't want to say, you know, [Ur-ish?].Ade: I know--I know what you're getting at.Zach: You know what I'm saying, but at the same time though, right, I just like words, but they don't get the "ish" side of me at work because of--because of reasons, right? So it's tough, but anyway, yeah. This is the longest project that I've been a part--creative project that I've been a part of as well, and it's dope. Like, I think it's crazy because if you look, like, over this past year, like, you'll see, like--I think what should make both of us proud is, like, a year of consistent engagement though. Like, it's not like, "Oh, we did it," and then we stopped, and then we did it and we stopped. Like, it's been a year of consistency, you know what I'm saying? Ade: Which is really a shout-out to you, because goodness knows that consistency is something that I lack in spades, but yeah. Without you there would have been very little consistency on my part, because yikes.Zach: Nah, nah, nah.Ade: We'll get into that.Zach: Yeah, we'll get into that. We'll get into that, but nah, actually, I'ma tell you, the crazy thing is that it was--what I was able to see in you and, like, the potential of this space that pushed me to be, like, really aggressive, right? And attentive and, like, not--and kind of unrelenting and neurotic in how we would, like--Ade: I don't know if that gives the right connotation or that has the right--Zach: No, it's conno--no, but I'm saying, like, there were times where I'd know that, like, I would get on your nerves. Like, I'd be like, "Ade, we gotta record. Ade, we gotta record. Let's go. Let's go," and, like, we're recording, like, multiple episodes at a time, and just me working, you know, just being, like, obsessive. Like, there's a certain level of that, right, that was involved in this, and I think when I talk to people who created something and are building something, like, there's a certain lev--like, a certain bit of it. Like, not to the point where it's toxic, but a certain level of just obsessive, like, it's all you're thinking about and doing for a certain season of your life, at least just to get it going. And I don't feel like it's like that now. I feel like we've kind of--like, we've found a certain pace and rhythm and sweet spot, but to get something off the ground takes a lot of effort.Ade: And I think for me that actually works for who I am as a person. I like immersion, and I've found that with anything, I have to live, breathe, swim, eat, everything consume a particular energy if that's what I need to focus on at that time, otherwise it's never gonna get done, and I'm also not the sort of person who gets annoyed by persistence, because it's something that I'm seeking out. It actually attracts me in a way to all of the things that I want, and that people who--in places where I find consistency and persistence and passion, those are the things that inspire me, those are the things that have brought me back to Living Corporate, even when I have not been in the most ideal situations. Because it's very easy to fall into the trap of complacence or just being like, "You know what? Everything is overwhelming, and I would like to just bury myself under the earth's crust and just, like, lay here for a second."Zach: That's real.Ade: But I've found that on the other side of that discomfort is everything that you're looking for, and you just have to keep pushing to get at it, if that makes any sense.Zach: No, it makes a lot of sense, and I feel the same way. And it's funny because, like, when I was talking to Rod with The Black Guy Who Tips--and this was, like, a while ago, but, like, he gave advice on the mic and off the mic, and we were talking about the fact that he said, "Man, you know, the biggest advice I can give you is just to keep going," he said, because so many people will get started with podcasting and, like, you know, they'll, like, do a couple shows and then they'll--you know, they'll get tired and be like, "Oh, I'll catch up next week. Oh, I'll catch up next week," and, like, you look up and they've been gone for, like, three months, or, like, people will, like, really put a lot of effort on the front end to, like, promote the podcast, and then you look up and it's, like--it's only been, like, two months and they're done. And I know for me, part of the reason so far--and again, it's only been a year, right? It's not like--we have time. We're still really babies, right? Like, we have tons--we have a long way to go. [laughs] But I know for me it's--like, the biggest fear kind of going into this was that, like, we would start, and we would, like, start off really big, and then we would fizzle out. So, like, I'm just really excited and thankful that we're here and, honestly, you and I, like, we're kindred spirits in a lot of different ways. Like, 'cause everybody doesn't like someone who's, like, persistent and, like will follow up and, like, hold you accountable and be like, "Hey, let's go." Right? Like, people don't like that, so the fact that, like, your vibe resonates with that is dope, because it's not common. So I'm really excited and thankful, like, for you to be here for real. Ade: Thank you. And just the last thought that I have on that is that I've found--and hopefully this helps somebody, but I have found that when I reach the valleys of my energy reserves and I'm completely tapped out, it helps having somebody like you, almost like a body double, because--I was gonna use a phrase.Zach: Nah, say it. [laughs]Ade: Ain't no punk in my blood. So I will be damned if anybody else, like, next to me is outworking me and we have the same level of commitment, so if you're willing to be up at 10:00 p.m. to record, I'm willing to be up at 10:00 p.m. to record, and if you are willing to cram yourself into a closet space to record, guess what? I too am willing to cram myself into a closet space to record, right? So there's something to be said for having a partner in your commitment who's willing to, like, go the distance with you, and you can sort of measure yourself and keep pace with that person. Not necessarily saying that you have to be down on yourself when you're not capable of being where they're at, but it's almost like having a guidepost as to where you need to be, and even when your heart isn't in it, you're able to, like, mirror somebody else so that at the very least you're going through the motions until your brain remembers what it feels like to win, if that makes any sense.Zach: No, it does, it does, and it's so interesting, right, because--the last part you said, like, really hit me, 'cause, like you said, "when your heart isn't in it"--I think a lot of times, like, when we do things it's like, "Man, if I don't--if I don't really feel like doing it, then I'm not gonna do it," and it's like, "Man, there's a lot of stuff that I don't feel like doing that I just gotta do." So it's just really interesting, like, when you said, you know, "when your heart isn't in it." And it's--like, it's really important because a lot of times when you're doing something, especially if you're trying to do something and build something over time, you don't always feel like doing it, right? But, like, you just gotta do it. I mean, like, the easiest example is working out. I've been working crazy, so I haven't, and that's an excuse, but I haven't been getting up like I want to that I budgeted in my time to actually work out in the morning. Like, I get up. I have an alarm that goes off at 5:30 in the morning. That's for me to work out for 30 minutes every day. I have, like, a kettle bell. I'm, like, supposed to be doing this kettle bell routine, and I don't always feel like doing it, but, like, I'm not gonna get the results I want if I don't get up anyway, right? And it's like--Ade: A word.Zach: A word. [both laugh] A whole word, but it's true, and, like, you know--Ade: You are dragging me in my hunched-over position and this, like, [inaudible] potbelly I have going on right now.Zach: I'm dragging myself, nah. I mean--just shoot, listen. See, this is what happened. So I dropped weight, and, like--so now I'm able to look down--I dropped weight. Now I'm able to look down and see my belt buckle, so I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I can see myself." Like, "I'm good."Ade: Okay...Zach: Right? But it's like, "Nah." Like, there's more goals than just, like, not being able to see your shoes. Like, you should dream bigger than that. So there's another word for you. Some of y'all are just shoe-starers. You need to be bigger dreamers than that. Keep going. Keep driving.Ade: Drag me. Drag me.Zach: [laughs] Man. So while we were talking, right, I had, like, other things that, like, popped up in my head, all right? So tell me if this is, like, a cheesy joke. So first of all, like, we're not--this is not the topic of [inaudible]--Ade: It is.Zach: It is? Okay. Well, I'm gonna say it anyway. So you were talking about being in the closet to record. Ade: Yeah.Zach: Okay. How crazy would it have been had you been in the closet to record the episode--and I think you know what I'm about to say--Ade: I do. All you had to say was closet. No, please. Finish.Zach: Okay. How crazy--[both laugh] how crazy would it have been if you were in the closet to record the episode of being LGBT at work? That would have been nuts.Ade: You are childish, number one. Number two, that would have been brilliant actually, 'cause I think I was still in the apartment with that alarm that wouldn't quit.Zach: Yes, yes. I remember that spot.Ade: I just want to say that if y'all have been here for this long and you've heard me through the apartment with the alarm that wouldn't quit, the house in D.C. where you may have heard random gunshots in the neighborhood, the apartment in Tysons Corner with all of the, like, zooming cars or that one day I was in the golf room and that one guy had a vengeance against golf balls.Zach: He was knocking the mess out those balls.Ade: He was not--like, just straight up assaulting golf balls, and I was concerned. Shout-out to you. We here. We made it. Zach: We made it, dogg. We're here, and like, yeah. So anyway, I'm just thankful for you. I'm thankful for this. I'm thankful for us. I'm thankful for JJ. It's crazy 'cause we didn't even--like, we didn't let any air horns off. Hopefully JJ--hey, JJ. Listen, man. We're not gonna get sued. Just go ahead and put "Tony! Toni! Toné!" at the beginning of this. Maybe let it loop in the background actually. We ain't--Ade: You know, I actually think this is an occasion for celebratory gunshots. What do you think?Zach: Yes. Hey, JJ. Let them thangs go, bro. [he does]Ade: Brrap-brrap.Zach: [laughs] And some air horns. Put 'em in right here. [JJ does] Yes. Let 'em--yes, man. We out here, man. It's been a year. I want to talk about these stats real quick, man.Ade: Aye.Zach: In our first year we've had, like, 40,000 downloads, fam.Ade: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?Zach: That's not bad. Like, for a grassroots podcast with no--Ade: Okay, first of all, don't give me "that's not bad." That's dope as hell. I just--I think you should celebrate everyone. One of the things that I'm taking away from the situations that I've left behind is that celebratory Milly Rocks are an important part of your growth and your development as a person, because celebrating the little wins and recognizing all of your small accomplishments rolls into the part of you that persists, because failure's really demoralizing, and it sucks, but when you're able to, like, go back to past situations and identify all of the ways in which you won and didn't even realize, recognize, or celebrate those things, you're able to be like, "Well, damn. I really am that [person]." Zach: [laughs] That was super funny. Hey, Aaron. [that's me] So look. You know, we've talked about Aaron in our past, and again, listen, I've--I've called our allies Buckys and White Wolves, and the reason why, for those who don't know--Ade: And don't forget Winter Soldiers.Zach: Oh, and Winter Soldiers. And the reason why, if y'all know anything about Marvel, y'all know that the Winter Soldier's name was Bucky, okay, and that the Wakandans called Bucky "the White Wolf" in Wakandan. So Aaron--Ade: By the way, I heard that attempt at an accent. It, uh...Zach: I really--but this is the funny thing about that.Ade: You've been practicing, huh?Zach: No. So this is the thing--actually I started and I said, "Ooh, this is terrible," and I stopped in the middle, right? I did not--I did not complete it. But anyway, Aaron is a--he's a Winter Soldier, okay, and he's also the person--when you look at, like, all of our social media stuff--and we've talked about him before. We've joked that he's our diversity hire, and so Aaron, when you do the transcript for this and Ade said, "I'm that person," make sure that you put person in brackets so the real ones know what you really meant. [laughs, and done]Ade: All of that exposition...Zach: All of that exposition just for that one piece of direction.Ade: I can't stand you.Zach: And it's funny 'cause he's gonna listen, and he's gonna be like, "Oh, yeah," and he's gonna do it. [they laugh, and that's exactly what happened] Oh, my goodness gracious. Ade: It's been a year of, like, deep sighs with you. Just, like, a--Zach: It's been a year of deep sighs, but look--but, like, you've gotten your [inaudible] out. [laughs]Ade: [utters the deepest sigh ever] A deep Negro spiritual sigh.Zach: A Negro spiritual sigh?Ade: Or it's an Issa Rae. [https://twitter.com/issarae/status/918611371805282305?lang=en]Zach: All the--all the Dad jokes and not nan a child around here. Pure Dad jokes.Ade: Look. Listen, it just means that you are well-prepared.Zach: I'm big ready. [both laugh] But nah. So, you know, I'm kind of at a loss of words because I'm just thinking about--I'm really thinking about what it took to make a year of content. Like, a year of content, and we've been working. Like, we've had full-time jobs, as consultants no less. Like, man, talk about that. Like, you have a whole new consulting job.Ade: 60-hour weeks. I counted it. I counted and averaged my working hours, and I just want to say that whoever said consulting was an easy gig... you are a liar.Zach: Oh, no. They lied. They lied. Well, this is the thing. It's easy I guess if you trash and [in a hushed whisper] if you're not black or brown. [laughs] Can we be honest?Ade: You know, I mean... all these facts. Like, I don't get to be mediocre at my job.Zach: I've never--yo, I'm gonna be honest with you. I've never--[laughs] No, no, no. So let me be clear. I am not saying that--well, I am saying that white privilege makes your job easier. I'm definitely saying that for you, yes. So if you're listening to this, I'm sorry. Be offended. It's cool. [both laugh] What I'm not saying is that, like, everybody who is white thinks the job is easy, 'cause I do know there are some majority people out here who are working very hard in consulting. Like, they work super hard, but every time I meet somebody and they say their job is easy, like, I've never met a black or brown person who says consulting is easy ever. Have you?Ade: Absolutely not.Zach: Like, never ever. Never.Ade: Ever.Zach: Eva eva, but the thing about it is--what I will say to that--you were talking about how many hours you work. So I don't want to say how many hours I work because there are people who, like, mentor me who listen to this podcast. If I told them how many hours I work, they would coach me. They'd be like, "Hey, Zach. You need to relax. You shouldn't be working that hard." So I'm not gonna say that, but I will--Ade: So maybe you need to relax and you shouldn't be working that hard.Zach: I mean, maybe so, but the point is, like, it's been a grind, right? Like, it's work. It's been work--like, we've been working. We've been working full-full-full-full-time. You don't really take a lot of vacation. I don't take a lot of vacation.Ade: Lol at a lot of vacation. Try any vacation.Zach: Lol at the word "vacation."Ade: Right? And obviously that's not to, like, compare struggles or anything like that.Zach: Definitely not.Ade: It's just, like, trying to give an accurate picture of, you know, just how exhausting this past year has been as well. Like, and as much as it's been a year of amazing triumphs and just wins that we didn't see coming, I'm working on a sleep deficit here, even on the weekends, and that's not something I'm trying to continue for very long, because I understand that sleep is a necessary and essential component of life, and I'm even not trying to encourage the culture that says that in order to, you know, be a good worker you have to show up to work on Mondays talking about how sleep-deprived you are. That's trash.Zach: That's toxic. That's super toxic.Ade: That is trash. Your brain needs sleep. But I also recognize that there are periods in your life where you have to take the L, whether it's the social L, sometimes the sleep L, to get to where you need to be in the long run, and so that's the time that we're investing now for later, and I'm sure all of my full-time workers/part-time hustlers understand what we're talking about.Zach: Straight up. I mean, this is the thing. I just don't know of any, like, entrepreneurs, full-time or part-time, who have made something pop, made the shake, without, like, really, really grinding, and I'm definitely not suggesting that you should be working yourself ragged all of the time, but there are gonna be some late nights. And, like, beyond you working late, I would say heart--more than that, you're gonna have to think a lot. Like, you should probably be more mentally exhausted than you are physically exhausted if you're really grinding at this entrepreneurship thing, because it just takes a lot of mental effort, like, to think through and strategize on how you're really gonna get stuff done.Ade: Right?Zach: Think through how you're gonna use your time, right? 'Cause you can't create more time, and you need sleep, 'cause it would be trash if we got on here talking about you don't need to go to sleep when we be talking about drinking water. Matter of fact, since we brought up drinking water, go ahead--I just hiccuped 'cause I need some water. [both laugh] Grab yourself the nearest cup of water, go to the tap--unless you are in...Ade: Washington, D.C.?Zach: Unless you're in Washington, D.C. or any of these other--if you're in a poor black or brown community. Because of the way that racism is set up and white supremacy is set up, your water probably tastes disgusting. So hopefully--Ade: Not only tastes disgusting, it probably has actual contaminants in it. So just don't do that. [inaudible]. Just drink some water.Zach: So don't--yeah, don't do that part, but maybe go get some bottled water if you can afford it, because the way that, again, white supremacy is set up and capitalism inherently built to destroy you and us. But, you know, if you can drink some clean water, go ahead and drink some right now. That's all I was trying to say. It got kind of dark, but I meant it.Ade: All of them caveats, and I just finished a bottle of water while you were speaking. I needed that.Zach: All of them caveats--all of them caveats. [laughs] But nah, for real though. You've got to take care--you've got to take care of yourself. So let's talk about this. Can we talk a little bit about, like, your journey with the STEM and what you've been learning?Ade: Absolutely.Zach: Okay.Ade: This is big trash. [both laugh] No, actually this is top two most challenging things I've ever had to do in my life, and this is not number two. I spent some time thinking through how I've been taught to think about myself as a learner, how I've been taught to think about myself in relation to the world around me. I was one of those kids who always picked up concepts quickly at incredibly high levels of abstraction. I could have--and I was very, very young doing this--I remember that when I was a kid, my great uncle, [inaudible], would sit me down in the morning and hand me the morning newspaper--and I'm, like, five years old during this--and we're just reading through the paper in the morning, and we'd say--and we'd talk about it, and he'd give me a little cup of coffee to drink with him. It's probably his fault I'm short, because everybody else in my family is tall, but we'd sit and talk through these incredibly abstract ideas. We're talking through military coups, we're talking through changes in, like, global structures. I'm being more complimentary of my ability to hold a conversation with a grown man who was in the military about these ideas, but I say that to say that I was always socialized to think of myself as an intelligent person. When you are teaching yourself an entirely new body of knowledge that you've never quite interacted with in the same way--I mean, I took, like, Computer 101 class, so I knew, like, what binary code was or what binary was or what the CPU is. I actually had an interest when I was an undergrad in building my own computer from scratch. I really wanted to, like, put everything together because I thought that was really, really cool. I'm not a very tactile person, so I had never worked with anything in that way before. So those were entirely new concepts to me. I don't think I've ever felt so defeated as trying to understand what a four loop or what a wild loop is and why I would use it, or what data structures are, or what an algorithm fundamentally tries to do, and over the course of the last year I have, like, doubted my intelligence. I have sincerely believed that my brain was just broken, and I've just discovered things that were patched over in an education system that wasn't designed to serve me in the way that my brain functions. And I can go on rants for days about this, but I [inaudible] believe that should I ever be blessed with children I'm not letting them be educated in the United States of America, certainly not in the public education systems in which I was raised, in which I was educated, because those systems don't teach you how to think critically or think creatively about problems. They teach you how to think about solutions.Zach: Man. That's so true.Ade: And frankly, that does you a disservice, because one, you need to think about the problem, not necessarily the solution, because through thinking through the problem you are hitting on and thinking through critically all of the ways in which the problem is structured and you're examining your biases about these different problems. Also the fundamental work of thinking through a problem requires you to think through other perspectives, and I think it gives you a level of empathy for others that we don't necessarily get to learn in traditional educational structures. And I like numbering thoughts because I lose track of things really easily, but now I've lost track of several other thoughts that I had. But the point of what I'm trying to say is that I've learned so much about myself. I've learned about learning. I've learned that I'm not incapable of learning. I might be slower at picking up technical thoughts and high-level extraction in the way that other people may pick them up, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm a failure or that I'm broken. And I also--I do this thing where I don't quite give credence to the context and circumstances of my situation, and for those of you who are listening, I've been through some ups and downs, and I found myself recently comparing myself to other people, maybe in the meet-ups that I would attend or just--the D.C. tech circuit isn't that large, and just struggling to articulate why it was taking so much longer than other people to get to a certain level in my education, and I had to give myself a break, recognize not only that I was working with an incomplete set of cards, but also recognize that I'm not working on anybody else's timeline but my own. [? will say (something in a foreign language,)] which means that we don't work by somebody else's watch, right? Like, we're not working on the same timeline, and that's okay. So yes, I've learned a wealth of things about myself, about the world, about learning. Did you know that actually--this may or may not work for you, but it's really helpful when you learn things to not stack your learning every single day. Zach: Nah.Ade: Part of what I struggled with was that I thought I have to crank at this five hours every day forever, and actually if you space out your learning--so doing two days on, one day off, then one day on, one day off, and then three days on, it actually gives your brain time to rest, time to create the synapses that allow you to build the blocks of understanding, and it's a lot easier for you to learn when you are doing, like, three fundamental things. When you are sleeping, which I didn't do for a very long time, when you are working out--because exercising is actually a way of enriching your brain--and when you are giving yourself on and off periods of learning. So it's almost like you feed your brain the information, and then you give yourself a break so that your brain can make sense of the information that you just provided it. Zach: But you know what though? I understand that. That makes sense to me, like, in principle, because when you think about, like, working out any other part of your body, like lifting weights, you have to, like, give yourself time to heal, right? Like you'll lift--you're not gonna work out the same muscle group every single day. Like, you're gonna--your upper-body one day. You can work out your legs the next day. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're not gonna just do--you're gonna give yourself time to heal, and, like, that's really interesting though, because when you think about learning and the way that we talk about learning, it's often in the context of, like, "Man, you just gotta repeat, repeat, repeat," like, over and over and over and over, and the other thing that you said, which is so crazy, and something just hit me just now. You said--like, 'cause public schools don't teach us to, like, really talk about problems, they talk about just, like, creating solutions, and we kind of--like, we praise that, right? Like, as a larger society. We praise not being problem-focused, right? Being solution-oriented and, like, thinking through actionable items to solve things, and it's like, man, there's value in, like, slowing down and really understanding the problem.Ade: Right.Zach: And, like, really ruminating on the problem, and it's funny because the next thing you said, which also hit me, was focusing on the problem can really help you grow in empathy. And, you know, I pride myself--I call myself an empathetic person, but I'm not really good at, like, slowing down and focusing on problems and, like, really, like, thinking through and, like, cycling problems over and over and, like, being like, "Okay, what's really--" Like, really, really slowing down and thinking about the problem, and that's feedback I've gotten on my job recently, and I had to--like, for me, like, that was just a gut-check, you just saying that, 'cause I'm like, "Dang, am I really as empathetic a leader as I think I am if I can't slow down and focus on the problems?"Ade: Right.Zach: So that's real. So look, and all of the things you talked about, all of the things you've been learning and you've been picking up, you didn't talk about why you're doing it. Like, what are you trying to do?Ade: At first it was solely because I wrote this list of 23 promises to myself on my 23rd birthday. I was going through this period--right before my 23rd birthday I went through this terrible break-up. It was with this person that I had a relatively toxic relationship with, but I was trying to find the win. I was trying to sift through the relationship and find all of the bits and pieces that added to my life, because I don't necessarily believe that I have experiences for the sake of those experiences or the sake of just having a terrible thing and then getting past it or whatever. I think that I need to learn from everything that happens to me, even if the lesson is "Wow, that person was terrible. Never again." So in compiling this list of promises to myself, I decided I was gonna learn a new thing, and I had just gone to a class that is held here in D.C. called Hear Me Code, where in a fem-centered space, or for people who are feminine of center, you come in, you learn how to write basic lines of code--so you're not really creating a program. You're just learning how to write basic lines of code. The syntax of Python, which is a really, really easy language to read and conceptualize, and I was like, "That is so cool. I really like that. I'm gonna learn how to code." Knowing now what I wish I knew then, that was a really, really dumb thing to do, because when you create this abstract idea or this abstract goal, it's really, really difficult to hit your mark, right? How do you know that you've learned how to code? Could I technically print "Hello, World" to a console in, like, three different languages? Sure, I could. Four now, whatever, but have I reached the level of mastery that it requires to call myself a software engineer? No, I have not, and the gap between those two ideals is so extreme that I almost set myself up in not thinking through what that meant. It is this character-building exercise now for me in that because I'm having to think through all of these really, really difficult things and all of these really, really high-level concepts, it also almost forces me to daily reassess who I am as a person and what I am dedicated to conveying to myself about myself. Yeah, I hope that answered your question. I have a tendency to, like, ramble, which you can see in my code, but--[both laugh]Zach: We both do. Nah, [inaudible]--Ade: You know, but I'm trying to convey an idea here, dammit. [both laugh]Zach: No, no, no. It makes sense to me. I think--I think for me it's interesting because your reasoning and, like, passion behind it is much more mature and, like, what's the word? Just the desire for you to know yourself through what you're doing rather than you being like, "Oh, I want to do X, so I'm learning this," right? There's a story and there's a journey there. So no, it makes sense to me. It's cool, and it's just--you and I have talked about it offline, but I wanted to make sure our listeners kind of heard the "why" behind it. 'Cause we've alluded to you learning this and spending your weekends and your evenings studying and going to class. I wanted to make sure that people knew a little bit more, and I know we'll continue to share as your journey continues on. Let's do this. What else do we want to talk about? What we got? We got, like, about a little over 35, 36 minutes in. Do we want to do--let's read some of these reviews, yo.Ade: Okay. You're not seeing me. You may be hearing the ash on my hands, but this is the Birdman hand rub.Zach: I hear--I hear the [?]. How are your hands so small and so ashy? That's crazy.Ade: Wow. Wow. Wow.Zach: That mug sound like *shaka-shaka-shaka*.Ade: That attacked my character.Zach: Shaka-shaka-shaka Khan.Ade: Wow. Wow. Wow, wow, wow.Zach: [laughs] That sounds--they're so ashy. Let me see--let me see.Ade: I just want you to know--nope. No, no. You don't need--you don't need to see. I washed--in my defense, dear listeners, I washed my hands before I got on this call because I have been dealing with a brood of approximately fifty-'leven children in this house all day, and, like, half of them were sick and gross. So I had to wash my hands.Zach: Oh, I feel that. That's crazy that you said "brood." Let me--but you know what though? We have these mics. The mics are pretty sensitive, so let me just see. Let me see, 'cause I just put lotion on my hands. My hands really--they should sound like two wet slices of ham rubbing together.Ade: Okay, yuck.Zach: [laughs] 'Cause that's how moist they are. So I said something moist--Ade: Mucho yuck.Zach: And then I said moist. Okay, here we go. Let me see. Nah, that sounded like a little bit of sandpaper running together as well. Okay.Ade: I didn't even hear anything. [same] This is trash.Zach: [laughs] Well, I can hear it in my mic. That's funny. Let me see. Hold on. Y'all hear that? No? [that time I did] Nothing?Ade: Nope.Zach: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's right. I'm moisturized over here, baby.Ade: Wow. So now I'm going to get on here sounding like Ashy Magoo.Zach: Not Ashy--not Ashy Magoo.Ade: There is--there is no justice in the world honestly.Zach: That's crazy. And can I keep it a buck with you? I haven't actually put lotion on my hands all day. I'm just naturally moist.Ade: All right. Okay, well, that's my time. I have to go. I must go. [?]Zach: [laughs] Let's go ahead and read some of these reviews.Ade: All right, bet.Zach: This one is from--first of all--hold on. Before I just get into reading reviews, right, let me put, like, an actual, like, intro and reason as to why we're doing this. We haven't read one review in the past year, and we have over 100--we have 127 reviews on iTunes, and then we have, like, a handful of other reviews, like, on our other spots where we publish our podcast, and so we just want to, like, thank and shout-out some of these reviews, man. So, like, I'ma read one, and then, Ade, I don't know if you have yours up, you want to read some, but I'ma start--Ade: I'm going there now.Zach: All right, dope. All right, so this one is called "A Breath of Fresh Air." That's the title, and it's from E from D.C. "Definitely a podcast worth listening to. Being a person of color in corporate is sometimes difficult to navigate because you may not know many others like you who have managed to lead a corporate job. You may be the first in your family working corporate, or you're just trying to figure out what your corporate identity is. Thank you for creating this podcast for us." Thank you, E from D.C. Shout-out to you. Thank you so much.Ade: Shout-out to you.Zach: Shout-out to you. Let me--let me read one more, and then I'ma let you go. This one--this one is from Jonathan Jones Speaks. "Built For This." "Their voices are made for podcasting." Uh-oh. "I love how you both feed on each other's energy, bringing on guests that add tangible insights and tangible instructions. Your stories are transparent and transformational. Continue to educate and elevate." Thank you, Jonathan Jones, from the Speak Your Success podcast. Thank you, brother. I appreciate you.Ade: All right. So I'm gonna--I'm gonna go with two that are back-to-back. So the first one is from Lee Cee Dee [?] titled "Amazing Guests and Content." "For a podcast that's fairly new, Living Corporate came out the gate very strong." Thank you. "The topics are so relevant to working millennials, and the guests are amazing. The first episode will always be so memorable and poignant to me, but also check out the mental health and LGBT episode as good places to start." Thank you, Lee Cee Dee. Next one. This is from Mixed Girl Maine. The title starts, "This is for us, being corporate while." It reads, "Thank you for this podcast. I am a former senior [?] manager of HR and an operations manager in the tech field. Being both the only or one of the few [?] managers and typically the only woman in upper management, I have felt for many years there was no community for me." We got you, girl. "This podcast is my community. It speaks directly to me, my experiences, and since my corporate career ended last year with difficulty, I just wish I discovered this well before this week. Keep it up. This is amazing."Zach: Man, I love that. Like, we'll just stop right there. I love--I love the fact that we've created something that people actually listen to and actually find value in. Like, I could tear up. I could cry a little bit to be honest. Like, that's awesome.Ade: This--why haven't we done this before? I truly--Zach: 'Cause we're trash, Ade. [laughs] 'Cause we are wack.Ade: I've never, like, gone looking through--Zach: I've skimmed a few, but I haven't really taken the time to, like, read and [?] on some of these reviews. Like, these are beautiful. There are some others on here that are just so--and some of 'em are long.Ade: I love how Candice came in repping the gang. Like, she was like "gang gang" out here.Zach: She definitely came in gang gang gang. She said, "I might be biased 'cause it's my husband, but yo, this podcast is fire." I said, "Come on, baby. That's what I'm talking about." She's my peace and my reviews.Ade: Oh. Well, then. Look, listen, I hear you.Zach: The "be his peace," that mess gotta stop. I literally--I be wanting to throw stuff when I see those little posts.Ade: I just personally--all right, well, I'm just gonna leave that alone. I'm gonna leave that alone.Zach: [laughs] I saw somebody--so I'ma say--I'ma say this joke because I feel like--'cause we're essentially a D&I podcast. Well, really we're an I--we're an inclusion and diversity podcast, but anyway, that's for another time. I saw some post that say, "My Latinx ladies, instead of trying to Hispanics, you need to be Hispeace."Ade: Oh, my God. First of all...Zach: [laughs] I said, "First of all--"Ade: That is terrible.Zach: That is trash. I was like, "First of all--"Ade: Secondly, [?]. Be Hispanic.Zach: I said, "First of all, please be Hispanic." First of all, Hispanic is not a culture, but please embrace your Latinx roots, whatever those may be. No, you will not sacrifice to be that some dude's peace. No. Ade: So here's the funny thing.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: Set his whole world on fire. I'm joking actually. [?]Zach: [laughs] Set his whole world on fire? That's super--so, like, do the opposite. Be his destruction in this mug. Wow. No, but, you know--Ade: Don't take my advice, y'all. I'm not straight. I have no relationship advice for anybody. All right, moving forward. JJ, cut all of that out.Zach: Moving forward. No, no. He's gonna keep it in. This is gonna be funny.Ade: Oh, boy. Oh, boy.Zach: So what else do we want to do here? So let's go ahead--you know what? You know, we ain't gotta give 'em everything. Let's stop. Let's stop right here, okay? I do have an announcement though before we get up out of here.Ade: Oh?Zach: Yep, yep, yep. So you've been rocking with us--if you've been rocking with us for any amount of time, you know that Living Corporate is not just a podcast. We actually have a blog. We have a newsletter. We have giveaways.Ade: All that.Zach: We have all of that. We have a lot of things going on, and I'm really excited to announce the fact that Living Corporate is now ready to expand our writing platform. So you should be expecting WAY more written content at a much higher and consistent clip than you have in the past. We have a team of writers. Like, these are people who are actively in Corporate America, focused and passionate on diversity and inclusion, focused--they have experiences in just being other in these majority-white spaces. We have some folks--I don't know if y'all remember--y'all should remember--Amy C. Waninger. She came on, and she was our guest for the Effective Allyship episode. She's actually one of our key contributors, key writing contributors, for Living Corporate, and so--Ade: Shout-out to Amy.Zach: Shout-out to Amy, man. Shout-out to Amy, yeah. Like, straight up. Love to all of our writers, and just really excited to tell y'all. So, like, you know, I think it was--I don't know. I guess whenever we had, like, our last random episode. It was, like, in the New Year, I think. I don't know if it was, like, the New Year or if it was, like, a New Year's Resolutions episode, but we talked about "Hey, we got more--we got, like, more content. Like, we have more stuff coming." Or maybe that was the Season 2 Kickoff. Maybe that's what it was. Kind of running together, but the point is we talked about the fact that we had more stuff coming. We were gonna wait until it was ready, and so, like, I'm just really excited to say, like, it's ready. Like, it's almost April. We've been, like, lying in the cut just getting our content together. So for all of my creators, y'all know how it goes. You don't want to just kind of jump out there. You want to make sure you have a little bit in the tuck. So we have it already, and we're just excited, so make sure you check us out on livingcorporate.com--I'm sorry, living-corporate.com, please say the dash, 'cause Australia is still trippin'.Ade: Big trippin'.Zach: They big trippin' to be honest. Yo, also--now, this is not a current events podcast, but yo, my man who busted the egg against my mans head though. Crazy. Ade: Egg Boy for president of some country that's not this one.Zach: Shout-out to Egg Boy. Yo, and also--hold on. So we can make sure that we're being fair, also shout-out to--shout-out to the Muslim woman who confronted Chelsea Clinton in a respectful but intentional way about her showing up at that vigil though. Shout-out to her too.Ade: I--I have some thoughts--oh, let's get offline. I have some thoughts.Zach: You have some thoughts? We need to really actually--we need to actually have a podcast episode very soon about being Sikh and Muslim in the corporate space.Ade: I'm down for that.Zach: Like, we need to--like, we need to, like, really get on that, like, for real. Like, that needs to be an episode that we drop very soon, because the level of just, like--man, just the bigotry, dogg, and, like, I don't think people really understand that, like, Islamophobia is definitely tied into white supremacy. It's just crazy, and, like, I just--man. And it's crazy to say I can't imagine, 'cause I can, which is sad, 'cause we're black. So it's like I can definitely directly understand and empathize and sympathize with how these people feel, 'cause it's like, "Man," but it's just nuts, man. Like, it's just crazy. Like, we've got to talk about this. Okay. Well, shoot. Let's see here. Before we get up out of here, Favorite Things? Ade: Sorry, I had to cough for a second. Um, Favorite Things, Favorite Things, Favorite Things. I didn't realize we were gonna be doing this. So my current Favorite Thing is the console.log function in Javascript. Now, for those of you who do not know, console.log allows you to print something, anything, to the console, which is where you get your feedback about how your code is doing, and I know that debuggers exist, but the way I first learned how to identify where my code wasn't quite working correctly was just by inserting a console.log function into my code, and so shout-out to that beautiful, beautiful, beautiful piece of technology that eliminates the dark for me. How about you?Zach: So my Favorite Thing right now has to be Jordan Peele. He's a beast, dogg. Like, he's super cold.Ade: Have you seen Us?Zach: I did, and actually, let me take that--well, nah--yes, actually, I'm gonna go ahead and still say my Favorite Thing is Jordan Peele, because he gives space to a very chocolate, all-black family in a major motion film. Ade: Which you wouldn't think it would be surprising to see a family that have consistent skin tone amongst them not having one random mixed-race daughter with two black ass parents. That is not the case, as the history of American television has taught us.Zach: I'm saying. Like, and they're so--they're dark. Like, they're dark, and they're--it's just beautiful. So yeah, you know, Jordan Peele is, like--he's my nod for Favorite Things this week because--and I'm not saying Favorite Things as if Jordan Peele is not a person. He's a human being, but what I love about--what I love about Jordan Peele is, and, like, what I really aspire to do is to, like, create platforms for other people to shine. That's, like, really my passion, right? Like, creating platforms for other people to shine. Like, Living Corporate, I love Living Corporate because--and it's my passion, it's my heart, because we're creating this platform to, like, highlight the humanity and, like, the perspectives and affirm the humanity of people that often get ignored. Like, he's doing that with his work, and I did see Us. This is Us. Is it This is Us or is it just Us?Ade: It's just Us.Zach: It's just Us. Goodness. Yeah, This is Us makes me cry. Not the show, just the trailers of the episodes make me cry. That's why I know I can't watch the show.Ade: Hm.Zach: I know. I'm very sensitive. So Us is amazing. Lupita though? Ayo. She bodied that. She KILLED it. Oh, my gosh. But, like, and I knew she was--like, look, I'm not--I knew Lupita was a solid actress. I didn't know she was that cold though, so forgive my ignorance. Ade: You are apparently not forgiven, because here you are.Zach: Man. Yo, when I tell you--that performance though, and I reckon--now, look, she is--she is classically trained. She is a--she is a thespian. Like, she didn't just pop up out of nowhere. Like, she's been--she's been working for years. Like, she's been building her craft for years, so I'm not asleep to that.Ade: Isn't she Julliard-trained too?Zach: Uh, Yale. Ade: Yale.Zach: Maybe she went to Julliard too. We need to get a researcher. We need to get, like, a researcher that we can, like, point to, and they can kind of just mutter stuff in the background and, like, keep us on track, 'cause I don't know. But I do know that she went to Yale. In fact, hold on. I got Google in my hand right now. I'm just finna check it out. Hold on. Did you say Julliard just because, or, like, did you hear that?Ade: I feel like I read something about her being at Julliard.Zach: Well, we about to check it out. Nah, just Yale.Ade: Oh, no. I think it's Viola that was at Julliard.Zach: You right. All right. Well, JJ, cut all of the Julliard stuff out, but the point is--Ade: No, it's okay if I'm wrong.Zach: Okay. [?] Okay, cool, no problem. So JJ, keep all of this wrong stuff in. [both laugh] But no, she bodied that. Like, I was like, "Ooh!" I was shocked. Like, and everybody in the--and, like, you know, when you go to movies with black people--scary movies with black people, you know, it's really not scary and it ends up just kind of being, like, funny.Ade: A whole lot of commentary [?].Zach: A lot of commentary that I was--that for some reason I just thought that I wasn't gonna get this time, as if, like, we all was gonna show up and not be black at the movies, but it was great, and yeah, so that's my Favorite Thing. Okay. Well, cool. Listen, man. Shout-out to y'all for real. Appreciate y'all. Year 1. We are officially 1 years old. We here. I'm not gonna say we're never going nowhere, but we're gonna be here for a while. So get used to us, get comfortable. Lean back. Put your conference line on mute so we don't have to hear you in the background, or unmute yourself to make sure you actually speak up and you're heard. That was--that was kind of, like, a consulting joke, you know what I'm saying?Ade: [not enthused] Yeah.Zach: Yeah... all right, well, thank y'all for joining the Living Corporate podcast! [laughs] We're here every week. You can follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, follow us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. You can check us out online at living-corporate.com. Please say the dash. Let me tell you something though. Our search engine optimization is so popping now, you just type in Living Corporate and you're gonna see us. Just type it in. "Living Corporate." We'll pop up. Ade: Yerp.Zach: Yerp, and then--yes, also, yes, real quick, shout-out to all of our guests. Shout-out to JJ, our producer. Shout-out to Aaron, our admin, okay? Okay. Shout-out to Shaneisha [?], our researcher. [long pause] Shout-out to all of our writers.Ade: [sighs]Zach: [laughs] Shout-out to all of our writers. Shout-out to our families and significant others, and yeah, this has been Zach.Ade: And Ade.Zach: Peace.

We sit down with Vilissa Thompson, an activist and disability rights advocate who is also the creator of Ramp Your Voice!, a disability rights consultation and advocacy organization that promotes self-advocacy & empowerment for PwDs. She created the viral hashtag #DisabilityTooWhite, spurring people to share instances of erasure of people of color with disabilities from media to medicine. Connect with Vilissa on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vilissakthompsonlmsw/Learn more about Ramp Your Voice!:http://rampyourvoice.com/The RYV Syllabus: http://rampyourvoice.com/2016/05/05/black-disabled-woman-syllabus-compilation/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? Now, listen, before we get into the "It's Zach and it's Ade," I just want to go ahead and say Ade, welcome back. I missed you, dawg.Ade: What's good, what's good?Zach: What's good? So listen--and, you know, our topic actually is very serious this episode, but I want to just go ahead and get the jokes out first, because once we get this interview done, I want to go ahead and wrap it right there, right? So, you know, what I love about Living Corporate is we dismantle--we seek, rather, 'cause I'm--let me not say that we dismantle anything, but we seek to at least address openly different stereotypes, challenges, and biases, you know, for people of color and how they really impact folks, especially in the workplace. And I want to talk about colorism really quick. Now, you're gonna be like, where am I going with this? Y'all probably listening to this like, "What are you talking about?" That's cool. So educational point for my non-melanated brothers and sisters out there. My non-Wakandans. My Buckys. My Winter Soldiers, if you will.Ade: Winter Soldiers... okay.Zach: In the black community we talk about colorism, and we attribute certain behaviors to certain black folks of specific hues. Ade: Here we go. Oh, here we go.Zach: A popular myth is that lighter-skinned black people do not answer their text messages. They leave--Ade: Actually, that's very true.Zach: They leave text messages on Read. Their text messages are on swole, as it were. Ade: I can't stand you.Zach: And I want to really recognize Ade.Ade: I only have 250 unread messages. You really can't play me like this.Zach: Ade is--and I'm not gonna--I hate it when people use food to describe women, but Ade is pretty chocolate, okay? She's pretty dark.Ade: You have to fight me after this.Zach: And yet she does not read her text messages.Ade: You're gonna have to run me the fade.Zach: She actually--in fact, just the other day I texted Ade, and she said, "Oh, hey," and I said, "Oh."Ade: It's on sight, I promise.Zach: You want to hit me with the "Oh?" Like, "Funny to see you here." That's what she hit me with, y'all. Like, "Oh."Ade: [sighs] Are you done?Zach: Hey, [in accent] are you done?Ade: [in accent] Are you done?Zach: [in accent] Are you done?Ade: See, you can't even--you can't pull a me on me. Zach: Man, I was so disappointed. I was like--man, I mean, if anything, based on these stereotypes, I should be the one ignoring your text messages. But you know what? For me to ignore Ade's text messages, y'all, guess what? She'd have to text me in the first doggone place.Ade: Wow.Zach: Wow. Whoa.Ade: This is a kind of rude I really did not intend on dealing with on tonight--Zach: So I want to say thank you, because last week we had--well, the last week before last, excuse me, we had Marty Rodgers. You know, it was a big deal. The dude is, like--he's like black consulting royalty in the DMV. You would think Ade would want to be on that podcast episode, you know what I mean?Ade: You're gonna have to fight me. I've decided. I've decided it's a fight to a death.Zach: [laughs] Oh, man. So I'm just thankful. I'm just so--this is me, like, publicly thanking Ade for being here and for texting me back. I don't know--Ade: I just want to say that I'm a good person and I don't deserve this.Zach: [laughs] You know what I think it was? I think it was the fact that we all got back on BlackPlanet for a couple days to check out that Solange content.Ade: Hm.Zach: I think that reset our chakras.Ade: Who is we?Zach: Or our ankhs. I don't know. We don't have--we don't have chakras.Ade: Who are we? I don't--Zach: Us as a diaspora. I feel as if that's--are you not a Solange fan? You didn't enjoy the Solange album?Ade: It has to grow on me, and I understand that that is sacrilegious, but I will say this--Zach: And you're supposed to be from the DMV too? Everybody from the DMV likes Solange.Ade: Let me tell you something. I listened--I waited until midnight. There is a screenshot on my phone of me starting to listen to this album at, like, 12:10, and I think at around 12:20 I was like, "You know what? Some things aren't for everybody." Everything, in fact, is not for everybody.Zach: That's real though.Ade: And I paused and went to sleep.Zach: Really? Wow. You know, I really enjoyed it, but I had to enjoy it 'cause she shouted out Houston a lot on the album. Like, a lot, so I enjoyed it off of that alone. And I'm also just a huge Solange fan, but, you know, I get it. It's one step at a time.Ade: Look, I too--I too am a huge Solange fan. A Seat at the Table is an everlasting bop of an album.Zach: Oh, it is. That's a classic. It's a very good album. It's, like, perfect.Ade: Yeah. This one--this one's just gonna have to pass me by and/or grow on me in 2 to 4 years. I don't know. Zach: You know, it's interesting because--it's interesting because I was used to--based on A Seat at the Table. This is not a music podcast, y'all. We're just getting our fun stuff out the way first. So it's interesting, because as a person who really enjoys Solange's words--like, A Seat at the Table, she had a lot of words. Didn't get a lot of words on this album.Ade: I'm told that it's--the experience is better if you watch the--I don't know what to call it. The visual--Zach: The visual album?Ade: Yeah, the visual album, in conjunction with it.Zach: Yeah, I'm actually gonna peep it. Fun fact. A couple weeks ago I told y'all about me playing Smash Bros., the video game, and I'm in a GroupMe, and one of the guys who I play Smash Bros. with was actually in the visual album.Ade: Oh, really?Zach: That's right, 'cause I got--those are the kind of circles I roll in.Ade: You know famous video players. Video game players.Zach: Yeah. Video game players, yeah. And as a side-note, he is very good at Super Smash Bros., so there. Maybe he'll be on an episode--on the podcast one day. Who knows? We'll see. Okay, so with that, let's do a very hard pivot.Ade: Sharp left turn.Zach: Sharp left, into our topic for the day. So we're talking about being disabled while other at work, and it's interesting because similar to how we brought up the Solange album out of nowhere, I was not really thinking about the fact that we don't really consider the experiences of just disabled people period, let alone disabled people of color at work.Ade: Right.Zach: I'm trying to think. Like, how many times have you worked with someone who was a person of color and disabled at work?Ade: So the thing to also think through here is the fact that there are lots of hidden disabilities.Zach: That's fair. That's a good call-out.Ade: Yeah, so there's a wide, wide range of conditions. Physical disabilities can also be invisible, but there are chronic illnesses, there are mental illnesses, cognitive disabilities, visual impairments, hearing impairments. According to the Census Bureau--apparently the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act, applies to or covers approximately 54 million Americans. Of those I'm sure many, many millions are people of color or black people in particular, and so yeah, I don't know how many people--how many people of color I've ever worked with who are disabled or who are living with a disability, but I certainly think that it's important that, as a whole, we think about how to create a more inclusive work culture that empowers people with disabilities that's not patronizing or demeaning or just outright hostile.Zach: No, I super agree with that, and just such a fair call-out to say that there's so many folks that--who do not have visible disabilities but are--who are living with a disability, and it's important that we think about that and we think--we're thoughtful about that too, so again, just my own ignorance, and it was interesting because in preparing and researching for this particular episode, it was hard to find comprehensive data, especially content that was specific to black and brown disabled experiences. I think for me--kind of taking a step back and going back to answer my own question, any [inaudible] I've worked with who have a visible disability--I have not worked with anybody in my career who has had a visible disability, visible to me anyway. And, you know, I think it's interesting. I was reading a piece. It was called "Black and Disabled: When Will Our Lives Matter?" And it was written by Eddie Ndopu. And this was back in 2017. He's the head of Amnesty International's youth engagement work for Africa, and his overall premise was historically black resistance and civil rights and things of that nature has always presented the black body as the point of resistance, right? And ultimately the image of the black form is one of strength and solidarity and able-bodiedness, right? And it's presenting this strong quote-unquote normal body as the ideal to then push up against oppression, systemic racism, and--I'm gonna present this, and I want--I'ma dare you to try to break this form, this body. And in that there's a certain level of bias, because it then automatically erases the idea of different bodies, of disabled bodies, and if that's the case then it's like, "Okay, well, then where do they fit in this narrative? Where do they fit in our story? Where do they fit in our resistance?" And so it's just really interesting to me, because I think it's just kind of calling out our own blind spots. As much as Living Corporate--we aspire to talk about and highlight the experiences and perspectives of underrepresented people in Corporate America. It's season 2 and we're just now talking about being disabled while other at work, and so, you know, it really confirmed for me how little I think about my privilege as an able-bodied person. It's a huge privilege in the fact that we're seen. We think that we're invisible, and in a variety of ways we are, but disabled people of color are even much less visible than we are. Ade: Right, and I also think that now is such a good time to start thinking through the conversations that we should be having, because we live in a time and a space where everyone's rights are sort of up for grabs, and it's especially important that we are holding space and creating a safe space for people who have less privilege than we do, and it's not enough that you give it a passing thought, because then you might as well be sending thoughts and prayers, right? And I think that if you have the ability to do something, it's--and, you know, opinions may vary, but I am firmly of the belief that if you have the ability to do something, it is your responsibility to do something, even if what you're doing is something so simple as having a conversation or amplifying the voice of those who aren't able to have that conversation.Zach: I agree with that, and that's really all the more reason why I'm excited and thankful for the guest that we have today. Her name is Vilissa Thompson. She is a disabled activist, public speaker, educator, consultant, and writer. Yeah, she's putting in the work. And we had a great conversation, and I really want y'all to hear it and check it out, so this is what I'm gonna do. We're gonna transition--wait, you know what? Ade, so I know we said we got the jokes in. We got the jokes in at the beginning 'cause I really wanted to give space for Vilissa, and we're going to. Do we want to come back and do Favorite Things?Ade: Yeah. Yeah, sure. Let's do that. Zach: All right. Cool, cool, cool. So that's what we'll do. So we'll go with our conversation with Vilissa, we'll talk about that, and then we'll get into the Favorite Things.Ade: Awesome, okay.Zach: All right, talk to y'all soon. And we're back. And as we shared before the break, we have Vilissa Thompson on the show. Vilissa, how are you doing?Vilissa: I am doing great.Zach: We're really excited for you to be here. So today we're talking about being disabled and being a person of color. Can you talk a bit about Ramp Your Voice! and where that idea came from and its mission and--just give us the origin story.Vilissa: Yes. Well, Ramp Your Voice! was founded in 2013, you know, as a way for me to discuss my experiences as a black disabled woman, as a social worker, and just the things that I've just noticed with my professional world as well as personally. When I--a year before that I started blogging more as a social worker blogger that was discussing social work through a disability lens, talking about different issues on that front. When[that wasn't really popular as a profession?] at that time, the profession had just started doing more things online, people coming up with different blogs and different platforms. So at the beginning of that, that really kind of helped me get to where I am when it comes to blogging, talking about the disabled experience from many different angles. So getting that experience [at 12?] led me to create my [inaudible] at 13, and we're 5 years now, soon to be going on 6 in 2019. You know, it has really grown into this organizational aspect to where, you know, I'm able to project myself as a voice within the community that really calls out some of the mess, you know, in a light way of saying it, that happens within the disabled community, as well as getting those who are in the broader society to understand that disability, you know, is very much a facet, you know, in the people, as well as their different identities and experiences. For me basically, I like to call myself a rightful troublemaker, because I don't feel that you're really doing good work, particularly if you're doing social justice, you know, if you're not shaking the table, if you're not ticking off somebody.Zach: Vilissa, I was agreeing with you because I think that, you know, when you're talking about topics around race and gender and really any topic around equity, right, and affirming or empowering disenfranchised groups, often ignored groups, right, like the disabled community, the disabled people of color community. If there isn't some type of discomfort there, then there probably isn't gonna be any growth, right? Like, in any other context when we talk about getting better or growing, like, there's some type of discomfort there, right? So, like, professional development or working out and getting new muscles or just growing as a person. You know, like, you have--you have pains. Having a child, there's pains associated with that. So there's just historically, and just as a matter of life, when you change and pain kind of--they go hand-in-hand, and they have historically in this nation as well. So it's just funny how we often try to avoid that, right? Like, we try to avoid discomfort while at the same time seeking to, like, enhance the platform of others, and it's like that doesn't--they can't go hand-in-hand. Vilissa: And I do want to say that sometimes, you know, changing things starts from within. I know that, particularly within the disabled community, there has been a lot of shake-ups due to, you know, the calling out of the racism that's in the disabled community when it comes to leadership, the kind of Good Ol' Boys club that really, you know, reigns true since, you know, when people think about disability, you know, what usually comes to mind is a white face, usually a white male face, and a lot of the leadership are white disabled men who have a lot of racist, sexist views, who resist the change that is needed, and I think there has been this surgance [sp] of disabled people of color to be able to ramp their voice, you know, in a sense, to talk about the issues that matter to them to bring forth a more diverse understanding of disability history that is not just white faces or white experiences. So I think that part of what I have experienced and others who do this activism work, you know, is shaking the table within to really get the change that you want outside, you know, of your own sphere.Zach: Let me ask this, and I find this--I find this genuinely interesting because, again, I don't believe that I considered the perspectives and the experiences of the disabled and disabled people of color. So, like, that entire community. So for able-bodied folks like myself, just people who aren't conscious of that experience, can you explain to me some of the different ways that unconscious bias, bias and racism, rear its head within the disabled community?Vilissa: Yes. One way is, you know, like I was saying, you know, who is disabled? You know, not really considering disabled people of color. You know, when we see the telethons and the marathons and, you know, the call for, you know, charities, it's usually, you know, white faces, and that, you know, visible erasure of representation allows communities of color to not see themselves, when communities of color, particularly black and native communities especially, have high rates of disability. So that erasure alone is very dangerous, you know, when there's certain racial groups who have a prevalence of disability, and then when you break that down further into the communities of color themselves--you know, I can only speak for the black community. You know, we do have a resistance to, you know, identifying as disabled or calling somebody's, you know, condition disabled, you know? We have these kind of cutesy words for it. "You know So-and-so?" You know, they may think like this, or, you know, "So-and-so may be a little, you know, quirky," or anything like that, and, you know, I think that for me, that has really impacted how I look at my black disabled body, you know, as somebody who's been disabled since birth. I really didn't identify as disabled until I started doing this work, because I didn't know that being disabled had its own identity and culture and pride and that there is a community of people that look like me and people that don't look like me and people who are wheelchair users like myself, people who are short of stature or little people or [inaudible], you know? So that invisibility when it comes to media, when it comes to the work that organizations do, really impacts one's ability to connect to an identity that's outside of their race and gender. So I really think that honestly both disabled and non-disabled people, you know, are both heavily disadvantaged due to that disability. I know that, you know, in coming to this space I see a lot of particularly black folks who are disabled, particularly those who have invisible or not apparent disabilities like mental illness, chronic pain. Those are all disabilities, you know? But we don't call those things that, and it can really create this disconnect in one's body and mind and what's going on within one's body and mind, as well as understanding that being disabled is just as strong of an identity as your gender and your race. So for me, connecting to particularly black disabled women [inaudible] is letting them know that it's okay to talk about your disability, you know? It's okay to talk about your mental illness. It's okay to talk about your chronic pain. It's okay to talk about the lack of medical assistance that you get because you are, you know, a [triple?] minority. You know, I really think that that type of visibility allows those open conversations, allows those community resource sharing or just tips shared or, you know, just plain support to occur. So for me I really want us to all kind of take a step back and say that "Hey, you know, disabled people are the largest minority group in the world and in the country," and we all know somebody with a disability, if it's not us ourselves who are disabled. So being disabled isn't just some identity that doesn't reach home in some way, shape, or form. It does, and I think that's the main disconnect that I see, people not understanding a community that is so vast, so diverse, and it's one where we do know somebody, and to not change the perception that we have about disabled people and the lives that we're able to live. So, you know, that's just kind of the things that I notice, you know, when it comes to non-disabled people, able-bodied people, not understanding things, and what disabled people like myself who do activism work, you know, have to kind of teach you all and also happen to bring you all into the fold for those who are actually disabled who may not at this point or for whatever reasons, usually due to stigma or shame, identify.Zach: In that you shared about being a triple minority, you talked about identity. As discussions around inclusion and diversity become more and more commonplace today, and more centered in pop culture frankly, the term "intersectionality" is used a lot. So can you talk to me about what intersectionality means for you? And I ask that because you shared that you being disabled is an entire identity to itself, and it is, right? It's a part of who you are. It shapes how you navigate and move around this world, how you see the world. At the same time, you are a woman. At the same time, you are a black woman. So I'm curious to know, how do you navigate the intersection of those--and of course those are just three. Certainly you have various other ways that you identify yourself. However, how do you navigate the various points of intersection for yourself?Vilissa: Well, I think that--you know, when I talk about intersectionality, I think what's so critical is that people cannot separate my identities because I won't let them. You know, being black is just as important to me as being a woman, as being disabled. You cannot look at me and just simply divide me into three different parts, you know? Each of my identities has interwoven into this, to me, beautiful fabric of my being, and the world reacts to me, you know, in the ways in which my identities present themselves, you know? Some people may not care that I'm black, but because I'm a woman that's a problem. Some people may not care that I'm a woman, but because I'm a wheelchair user that makes them uncomfortable. Some people may not care that I'm a wheelchair user, but because I'm black, that's the biggest issue. So when I go out into the world, I don't know at times which of these identities people are reacting to, or sometimes I can tell. It depends on, you know, if they're very open about what may make them uncomfortable or what they're, you know, I guess quote-unquote offended by, you know? By my mere existence. So for me, the world, you know, looks at me and judges me on those three primary identities that I have, and they make assumptions about my capabilities, my intellect, my social status, my educational status, you know? Just everything about me, and the one thing I always say about assumptions is, you know, the word assumption has, you know, A-S-S at the beginning of it, so you can make yourself look like an--you know, an unintentional [bleep] by making assumptions. So, you know, I really think that those assumptions have really shaped, you know, my experience, and particularly when I learned about the term "intersectionality," it just really, you know, was like a light-bulb moment. Like, "Oh, my gosh, that makes so much sense," because when I look at myself in the mirror, I see a black disabled woman, you know? I see--and I'm a Southerner. I'm from South Carolina, so, you know, I understand what it means to be in a small Southern town, you know, to live in a red state, to have the type of history that is attached to the South. As a woman I understand, you know, sexism and the ways that women are paid less and the harassment and the sexual assaults that women go through, you know, with our bodies and our mere existence, and as disabled, you know, we experience all of those things, you know? Disabled women, particularly those with intellectual disabled, have the highest rates of experience sexual violence. So in that example, you know, we have the connection of gender and disability. You know, when it comes to being a person of color, their people have the highest rates of police brutality. Over, you know, half of police brutality rates are conducted on, you know, disabled people, and there's a portion of those people who have been, you know, either the survivors or victims of police brutality have been disabled people of color. So in that example you have the race and the disability factor. So, you know, just in those type of statistics alone--and I could go on and on about the disparities when it comes to race, gender, and disability--you really cannot separate someone's experience and the disparities that they may encounter because of who they are.Zach: Let me ask this. You know, in the work that you do with your Ramp Your Voice! and of course as a professional, as an adult, can you talk to us a little bit about how to effectively support disabled people of color in the workplace?Vilissa: Mm-hmm. Well, I know that what my particular work journey has been. It's always unusual, you know, when it comes to how non-disabled people may look at it, but for disabled people it's not really unusual at all. As I said, I am, you know, as a social worker. When I got my MSW in 2012, I had wanted to look at traditional social work routes, and the one thing I found is that the requirements for social work positions, particularly those that deal with case management, DCS or CPS, you know, et cetera, requires you to either have a vehicle or be able to go out to homes, and as a wheelchair user I know that the majority of homes are not wheelchair-accessible, and as someone who did not have the ability to obtain a car because I was on SSI at the time, you know, that [inaudible] was there as well. So I quickly realized that if I wanted to make a niche for myself within social work I most likely was gonna have to do a non-traditional social work route, and lucky for me, I went from being micro-focused, which dealt with families, individuals, and groups, into a more macro focus, which is activism, community building, so on and so forth, and that's what kind of got me into writing and got me into Ramp Your Voice! So for me, many disabled people are like myself where we have these barriers. We have these systemic barriers when it comes to the job requirements. Like I mentioned, you know, being a wheelchair user, and you also have systemic barriers when it comes to government agencies as well. You know, with being on SSI, I knew that I would have to have a job that gave me insurance, because my SSI and my health care--because Medicaid--were connected. So if I was to lose the SSI, that means that I would lose the Medicaid.Zach: So let me ask this. What is--for those who don't know, and myself included, what is SSI?Vilissa: SSI is basically social security. There's two types of social security. SSI is what those who have not yet put into the system get, basically those like myself who are born with disabilities. Basically, like, younger kids whose parents make within the I guess income requirements. I was able to get them enrolled on it. And then there's SSDI, so those of us that work, we put into the SSDI system. So for me, I was on the SSI system because I hadn't put into the system yet. So for me, while I was building my brand, I was still looking for, you know, different types of employment. Luckily I lived at home with my grandmother at the time, and, you know, I was able to stay with her. You know, I had lived with her my whole life, so I was able to stay with her and build up this brand, and then when she passed at the end of 2015, I knew that I would have to get some type of employment. So I, you know, was able to get a job by the end of 2016, and that allowed me to get off of social security, 'cause I had health insurance. You know, that's the unique situation that disabled people endure. These are the systemic barriers. Now, some disabled people are not able to get off, particularly Medicaid, because they have comprehensive health care needs, and private insurance would not pay for some of those extensive health care needs that they have, like having a personal care assistant, someone coming to their home, helping them with their activities or daily living like dressing, bathing, so on and so forth, or they may need certain equipment, you know, that private insurance may not cover because it's, you know, very expensive. So some disabled people are not able to get off [inaudible] at all, and they have to be very mindful of how much income they may have to take in, how that can affect it, either their Medicaid and/or social security, particularly if they're both connected, and what does that look like. So this puts disabled people in the [inaudible] of property, because I know that when I was on social security I was getting several hundred and 30 something dollars a month, which is nothing, you know? To live off.Zach: Right. No, absolutely.Vilissa: Yeah, and that's, like, a month. So, you know, just think about that. For some people, that's their rent, you know? That's their rent payment.Zach: And that's some cheap rent too.Vilissa: Exactly. You know, so I think that what non-disabled people really don't realize is that when it comes to employment, disabled people have a lot to consider, and in some cases a lot to lose. That could put their livelihoods, and at times their lives, on the line. So when it comes to employment, you do have to be very strategic about what kind of jobs you take, what kind of money you take. If you can take money, what does that look like? And so on and so forth. I know that for me, I was willing to do some things for free while on social security because I knew the consequences of taking money while on social security, and that was my main source of income. And that's a lot to take into consideration, a lot, and when it comes to disabled people of color, we have the highest rates of unemployment within the disabled community. Disabled black folks have the highest rates of unemployment in the community. So, you know, it's not only us having these hoops to go through, but also people not being willing to hire us when it comes to looking for employment.Zach: So let's get back on Ramp Your Voice! a little bit. I love the writings and the photos and the resources. Where can people learn more about Ramp Your Voice!, and what all do you have going on in 2019?Vilissa: Well, Ramp Your Voice! is gonna be doing some very collaborative work. Right now I have a speaking agent, where I will be doing a lot of speaking gigs, signing up for universities. So if anybody wants me to come speak, you can sign me up for that. Reach out to me and I can connect you with my agent. And that has been a great experience that just occurred this year, to be able to connect with somebody who understands the vision that I have of my work and my voice and what I want to do with that through more writing. I'm in the process right now of working on my children's book, which is a picture book. This has been kind of like my baby for a very long time, and I'm now in the position to work on it the way that I desire to and bring it to life. Right now I don't have a publisher for that, but definitely looking for one. Right now I'm also looking to writing. I love writing about race, gender, and disability, to intersectionality and different things like, you know, pop media, media representation, health care, social work. So right now I'm just continuing to build the brand, continuing to talk about the experiences from a black disabled woman's perspective, and just really continuing to, you know, cause trouble. Like, one of the things I do enjoy doing is educating, you know, non-disabled folk, particularly those who are professionals in the medical field, the [inaudible] professions field like myself with social workers, therapists, really understanding disability outside of the medical model, which is basically, you know, talking about disability from a diagnosis standpoint as well as the [first-person?] language. We're saying "people with disabilities" instead of the identity-first language, which is disabled people, disabled [inaudible], disabled women, and really getting into the social model of understanding disability, which is more about, you know, disability being a, you know, identity, a culture, a community. So that's kind of what I offer for professionals who really want to ensure that if they're trying to engage with disabled people through their work, maybe through recruiting, you know, for their hiring practices, you know, whatever that they're interested in, make sure that they understand the language, because every community has its particular language that you need to know to be able to better relate and engage with those community members so you don't be out of date and, at times, unintentionally offensive by using outdated terms. So those are the things that I offer that I'm really looking forward to doing more of in 2019, as well as a couple other projects that I can't really say just yet, but just really, you know, expanding the brand, particularly since there's so many great disabled voices out there who are doing incredible work, you know, just making sure that what I'm doing is always fresh and always being welcome to reaching new audiences, reaching new professions and new worlds that, you know, disabled people live in, you know? Just because somebody doesn't self-identify as disabled doesn't mean that disabled people aren't in your organization, aren't in your community.Zach: I appreciate you educating me. I'm sure many of our listeners--and I'm curious though, before we get out of here, do you have any parting words? Any shout-outs?Vilissa: Well, I just--you know, I just really want to thank you for allowing me to be on here. Just know that disabled people are here, and we are not going anywhere, and if you don't know a disabled person, you need to step your game up and really--particularly if you are a professional--see the ways in which your organization, your body of work, is being exclusive--you know, excluding disabled people, and how you can be more inclusive of disabled people, and ensuring that if you're going to include disabled people that they represent vast, you know, gender, race, you know, sexual orientation, you know, identities, because we need more disabled people of color, disabled people of color who are LGBT, you know, in those types of spaces.Zach: Vilissa, I have to thank you for being on the show today. Thank you so much, Vilissa. We look forward to having you back on the show. We'll talk to you soon.Vilissa: Thank you.Zach: Peace. And we're back.Ade: That was an amazing interview. Beyond, I think, inspiring, which I don't think is the term that I really want to use there, but pardon my lack of or access to language at this point. I think Vilissa's story is--it's a call to action, right? It is--and I don't know if everyone has gotten the opportunity to go to Ramp Your Voice! and just take a look around, but there's actually an anthology--I was struggling with that for a second there. There's an anthology on Ramp Your Voice! where Vilissa actually did an amazing job at collecting a black disabled woman syllabus, and I did some work and went through and read some of the articles that I hadn't had access to or read before, and it's amazing. It is a body of work that I think everyone should read, not just because it gives you a really--if you can hear something crunching in the background, that's my dog Benjamin. He wanted to be featured on the--on the podcast today, so he has some thoughts.Zach: What's up, Benji? Yeah, we can definitely hear him. It's all good.Ade: Yeah. So this list has important thoughts. Like, The Stigma of Being Black and Mentally Ill, Complexities and Messiness: Race, Gender, Disability and the Carceral Mind, which was an incredibly, incredibly important read. "How I Dragged Myself Out of the Abyss That Is Depression Without A Prescription," Disabled Black People. Just very, very important works and in many, many different formats. So you have music, audio, video, poetry and fiction, books, articles. I say all that to say that there is a treasure trove of really important and interesting work, so I encourage everyone and will include the link to the syllabus, but I encourage everyone to take a look at this work. I don't even remember where I got started with singing Vilissa's praises, but yeah, amazing interview. Zach: No, super dope, and I definitely appreciate Vilissa joining the podcast. We'll definitely make sure to have all of her information in the show notes. JJ, give me some of them air horns for Vilissa. Go ahead, give 'em to me. Put 'em in here.[air horns] Aye. Thank you, thank you. Part of me wants to let off some of them blop-blops, Ade, but, you know, we're a professional podcast.Ade: Again, all I have to say is that celebratory gunshots are absolutely situationally appropriate.Zach: Man, my goodness. One day I'ma have--one day I'ma have the CEO of my current job, he's gonna be on the podcast, and we're gonna let them blop-blops go. Watch. That might be the same podcast we talk about respectability politics too, just to make some of y'all real mad.Ade: I am here for all of that action, all of it.Zach: I'm here for it. Man, so I'm definitely excited. So I have not read any of the pieces on here. I clicked the anthology, and I see--Ade: Any?Zach: I haven't. I haven't read the pieces on here. I haven't, no. Ade: Even the black feminism or the womanism category?Zach: No. I'm being honest.Ade: Oh, you have some homework.Zach: Oh, no. I have mad homework. I have mad homework. So I'm looking at the anthology. The anthology is requesting content, right? It's requesting content, but then I see right here to your point, there's a bunch of stuff on here. The Harriet Tubman Casting Cripping Up Issue, Aunt Vi, #QueenSugar, Black Women, & Our Disabled Bodies: Why We’re Still Whole, Luke Cage: The Black Disabled Superhero We Need, If I Die In Police Custody. I mean, Why Black History Matters. There's great content here, and really there's no reason for y'all not to check this out, just like there's no reason for me not to check it out further. Amen. Okay.Ade: Absolutely.Zach: Okay. Okay, okay. So let's go ahead and get into these Favorite Things. Ade, why don't you go ahead and go first?Ade: Oh, I just want to say one last thing before we move on. I think that it is incredibly important as we amplify the voices of people of color who are disabled, particularly black people, particularly black women who are disabled, I think it's important that we contextualize black history and the black experience within this paradigm, and I had to sit back and think through, for example, Harriet Tubman, who we know historically had seizures. She was injured over the course of her enslavement and had to deal with severe seizures for the rest of her life, which brought on these visions that she attributed to a religious--like, a sacred experience, but I think of how important it is to 1. contextualize these experiences and 2. fully give Harriet Tubman her due, right? Because if we lose the pieces that really and truly make up who she is, we are not truly honoring her, right? And I think that if we acknowledge that, you know, Harriet Tubman was a black woman, an enslaved woman, a disabled woman, in a time that made no space for any parts of her, I think we really and truly start to understand and give honor to who she was as opposed to having honestly a very surface-level understanding of who she was and magnifying her in a shallow way, I would say. So yeah, Harriet Tubman. Amazing woman. Disabled woman. I cannot sing her praises enough obviously. I mean, duh. Harriet Tubman. But yeah, it's so important that we talk about these things, because it's so easy to gloss over the fullness of who a person was.Zach: Okay. So with that being said, now we're ready for our Favorite Things. Ade, what you got going on? What's your Favorite Thing right now?Ade: So my one Favorite Thing right now is this guy who demanded cuddles and rubs, so he is over here face all in my lap while I try to record. I promise you, he is just big ol' face in my lap. His favorite thing--his favorite thing to do is to either jump right on top of my stomach, all 50 pounds of him, when I'm laying in bed and minding my own black business, or he likes to, when I'm sitting on the couch, literally hop on the couch and put his butt in my face. It's, like, his favorite thing. Zach: This sounds abu--oh, this is a dog. This is Benji.Ade: Yes, yes. There isn't a random man running around in my life.Zach: I was like, "Wait, why is he--he's a grown man and he weighs 50 pounds and he's jumping on your stomach? What?"Ade: I would have so, so many more problems if that were in fact the case.Zach: That is crazy. I was like, "Wait, this is too much going on." Okay, so Benji is your Favorite Thing right now?Ade: Oh, and my other Favorite Thing is the CodeNewbie podcast. I stopped listening for a little while because--Zach: What's the name? Say it again?Ade: The CodeNewbie podcast. Zach: Okay, what's that? What's the CodeNewbie podcast?Ade: It is a podcast dedicated to educating folks like me who are either transitioning into tech or even, like, if you're a CS student in college or whatever it may be, a new grad of either an undergraduate, a master's student, if you were graduating from a boot camp, all of it. It just educates an entire community of learners, and I love it so much. It's, you know, after Living Corporate, my favorite podcast to listen to.Zach: Aye. Okay, that's what's up. First of all, shout-out to Benji and to all the dogs out there. Woof woof.Ade: Not woof woof. Did you just--okay, DMX.Zach: No, DMX would be like--I can't even do it. I can't even do it now 'cause you just put me on the spot. [tries] You know what I'm saying? Like, that would be DMX.Ade: Okay, Lil' DMX.Zach: Yes. ZMX, what's up? So also, you know, we need to start doing our shout-outs, so this reminds me - shout-out to the college-aged people who listen to our podcast, shout-out to the Buckys, A.K.A. the allies, A.K.A. the Winter Soldiers out there. Ade: Oh, my God.Zach: Shout-out to the Wakandans, A.K.A. my true Africans. Shout-out to my Jamaican brethren, who allow us to get these pew-pew-pews off every episode. Thank y'all for the encouragement.Ade: Honestly, I think it's [tolerated?] at this point, but shout-out to y'all anyway.Zach: Shout-out to y'all. Shout-out to the corporate gangstas. Shout-out to Wall Street. Shout-out to the folks that don't have nothing to do, they just listen to podcasts all day. Shout-out to y'all.Ade: Shout-outs to those of you who have, in the last 3 days or so, deployed a "per my last email." I see you. I recognize your struggle, and go ahead and CC HR if necessary, [beloveds?]. It's okayZach: Amen. Shout-out to those who drink water every day. Shout-out to y'all.Ade: And if you are listening with us right now, feel free to reach over to a glass of water or a water bottle of some sort and take a sip.Zach: Shout-out to my people--shout-out to all of my black people and all of my white people, A.K.A. all of the people who know they need to wear lotion and all of those who don't really wear lotion like that. Shout-out to all of y'all, and then of course shout-out to all of my co-workers and colleagues who listen to the Living Corporate podcast. Shout-out to y'all. Who else?Ade: You know, it's funny, because I don't really tell my co-workers about our podcast just in case I need to shade them on the podcast.Zach: See? Well, that's what happens when you're not--when you don't live your truth, see? You've got to--you need to tell your co-workers about the podcast. [inaudible]--Ade: So I just need to shade them directly to their faces? Because, I mean, I'm with that energy, it's just that--Zach: You should definitely shade people to their faces, just as a principle in life. Ade: So here's the thing. I struggle with that, because I would love to shade you in person and to your face and very loudly--well, no, that's not quite shade, that's just yelling--however, I also hold the sincere belief that I just work here. It is not my job to educate you about your silliness. So I don't know. There's, like, a spectrum of behavior, and I don't know how willing I am to invest time in raising adults. So I'm gonna continue struggling with that.Zach: I mean, I feel that. I feel that. See, I genuinely love my job. Like, I'm at a very unique place in my career. I love my job. I have a great relationship with all of--everybody in my practice. Like, I love my team, so, like, shout-out to them. And so I have no issue with letting people know that I have a podcast, plus this is a professional podcast. Like, we don't be talking crazy on here. We haven't even let any blop-blops--we haven't even let any blop-blops go.Ade: I hear you. I love my job as well, although on occasion I do sincerely doubt the judgment of some folks.Zach: That's real.Ade: So I don't know. I'm gonna struggle with that a little bit longer and let you know how I feel about it and if I'm deploying a--"Here's a link to my podcast," you know, in an email all thread.Zach: It's a good--it's also good for your personal brand. I mean, I think--you know, it's almost been a year since we've been out. I feel like it's about time you let people know you're on a podcast.Ade: Very true point.Zach: You know what I'm saying? We were in the middle of these shout-outs. Oh, right, so Favorite Things. So my Favorite Thing right now has to be Desus and Mero on Showtime, okay? So, you know, there are a few things that give me inspiration and joy at the same time, and Desus and Mero happen to be one of 'em. I love their style. I love their content. It's super funny, very engaging, and it has a certain level of just comedic timing that I aspire to have. They're wonderful. So I love their show. This is not a paid promo ad. I don't even think we have enough juice to get ad space for Desus and Mero.Ade: No, no, no. Retract that energy right now. Retract it. Retract it.Zach: Yeah, right. I'm gonna take it back, I'm gonna take it back and add a "yerrrrrp" instead. [laughs]Ade: That's how you do it. Yep.Zach: Yes, but--but no, I really enjoy their content, so shout-out to them. And that really leads me to my question before we get into the wrap-up. Do you think we should have, like, some A.K.A.s on the show? Like, not the sorority. Shout-out to y'all, though. [inaudible].Ade: I really was about to be like, "Excuse me?"Zach: No, no, no. Like, A.K.A.s, like, "Zach Nunn, A.K.A. So-and-so, A.K.A. That Guy, A.K.A. Mr. Such-and-such, A.K.A.--"Ade: A.K.A. ZMX?Zach: A.K.A. ZMX, A.K.A. "per my last email," A.K.A. CC Your Boss, CC Your Manager. My wife's looking at me and saying, "No, don't do any of that."Ade: I--yes, I really was about to be like, "Hm, this could escalate very, very quickly, and the only A.K.A. that I am known for is not work-appropriate," so I'm just gonna move on.Zach: [laughs] Yeah, [inaudible] said no.Ade: I'm standing in my truth. I'm sitting. I'm sitting in my truth.Zach: My wife took her laptop, moved it off of her lap to her side, and then moved her head from the left to the right to the left again, to the right again, and then back to the left to tell me no. Okay.Ade: She's a wise woman.Zach: She is.Ade: We have been rambling for so long.Zach: We have, but, you know, this is actually part of our podcast. You know, people--y'all have been saying that we're not--you know, sometimes we come across a little too scripted. Look, we've been kicking it this episode. If y'all like--if y'all kick it with us--you know, actually, this is the last thing before we go. You know how, like, every podcast and/or, like, artist, group, they have something that they call their fans? Like, Beyonce has the Beyhive, right? Like, Rihanna--BTS has, their fans call themselves "The Army." Like, should we have--should we have any type of--Ade: An employee resource group? Sure.Zach: No, no. What we call our fans. You think we should call them an employee resource group? That'd be super funny. No, they have to give themselves an--you know, something like "our Living Corporaters," you know what I'm saying? It has to be something where you give them, like, a name. There has to be a name.Ade: I don't--Zach: Right? So, like, I'm pretty sure--Ade: Let's think through this. Y'all send us some suggestions.Zach: We've gotta think through it, right? Yeah, y'all send us some suggestions. Like, what do y'all want to be called? Y'all can't be called "the Living Corporate hive." That's mad corny. Can't be called the LCers, 'cause that's--again, it's cheesy. But I don't know. Like, we should think about something. I don't know. It'd be funny, like, if we ever had, like, a live podcast and, like, people subscribed in the middle of our podcast, if the noise was [makes noises] "Hi, who just joined?" That would be funny. [laughs]Ade: All right, it's past your bedtime.Zach: It's time to go. It's time to go, y'all. All right, thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. You can check us out on everything. We're everywhere. Just Google us, Living Corporate. Check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate, check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. Make sure you check out all of our blogging content, 'cause we have blogs, and we have some new stuff coming. That'll be coming--fresh announcement, independent announcement coming soon on living-corporate.com, please state the dash, or livingcorporate.co or livingcorporate.org or livingcorporate.net. We have all the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com. Y'all should know this by now because Australia owns livingcorporate.com. Somebody write a note to Australia. Let them know to stop hating. Ade: A strongly-worded letter.Zach: A strongly-worded letter, right? But they're not even doing the aboriginals right, so they definitely not gonna do us right, huh, Ade?Ade: I mean, no. Zach: No, they're not. Dang, we just put some aboriginal commentary in the end of a Living Corporate podcast episode. But I mean it, y'all need to do right by the aboriginals, and frankly y'all need to do right by us and give us the livingcorporate.com domain. I'm tired of it. We've talked about this for a whole 3 or 4 months. Consider this though a strongly-worded note, a message, okay? We do need the domain. I'm terrified to ask how much money it would cost. I have no idea. I have no idea how much money it would cost.Ade: I--I just--all right. Goodnight, bruh.Zach: Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. This has been Zach.Ade: This has been Ade.Zach: Peace.Ade: Peace.

Zach and Ade officially kick off Living Corporate Season 2 by announcing new… well, just about everything! New guests and blog posts, weekly tips provided by Tristan Layfield, and even new background music! They also discuss the expansion of Favorite Things and listener letters for Season 2.Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com or send us a DM on any of our social media platforms to submit your Favorite Things and listener letters!TRANSCRIPTZach: Ayo!Ade: What's good?Zach: We're back, we're back. What's going on, everybody? Welcome to Living Corporate Season 2.Ade: Sure is.Zach: Season 2, let's go. Look, more intentional--is it more intentional? Does more intentional--is that grammatically correct?Ade: I--I do believe so, yeah.Zach: Okay, great. More intentional. Bolder. More fun. What kind of topics do we have this season, Ade? I feel like we've got some hot stuff.Ade: We do. So this season we're gonna be talking about interesting stuff like supporting black when at work, which I personally am a fan of. Being disabled while other at work, respectability politics. I mean, the real behind the helpfulness of HR. Being Latinx at work. We have a ton more content. We got some great feedback from the blog last season as well, so we're continuing that this year. Definitely, definitely, definitely make sure you check us out. It'll be on our website, living-corporate.com, and on our Medium page.Zach: In the off-season, right, we actually made some moves, okay? So we bought more domains, right? Okay, so we got livingcorporate.tv. We got livingcorporate.co. We got livingcorporate.org. We really have every Living Corporate. We have livingcorporate.net, right? We have every Living Corporate besides livingcorporate.com, because Australia owns livingcorporate.com. Ade: Hold on. Now, this is the first I'm hearing of this. I have to fight Australia for--what?Zach: So it's a company in Australia, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they have livingcorporate.com, but we have all the other Living Corporates without the dashes, right, and the hyphens, so we're making these moves. Definitely excited about the blog. Like, that's gonna be great. Like, everybody isn't a podcast person, right? Like, we have this podcast. We love our podcast. The podcast is probably 90%, 95%, right, as we currently stand of what we have going on, but we want to better diversify our media offerings, because people engage in content in different ways, and we really believe in what we're doing. I would hate--I would hate for all the great things that we have going on to not be captured or not be absorbed rather. And speaking of more content and engaging people in different ways... some of y'all probably remember Tristan Layfield. Ade: Aye.Zach: Yes. He was a guest on the show last season on the episode--it was a B-Side for Landing the Job of Your Dreams. And he's a resume subject matter expert in terms of how to write them, and he's a career coach. Doing great stuff, right? Doing great stuff, and he's graciously offered to be a part of the Living Corporate team for Season 2 to give y'all his own nuggets of wisdom, and he's gonna put 'em on the show.Ade: Amazing. Shout-out to Tristan.Zach: To me that's crazy, right? Shout-out to Tristan Layfield and Layfield Resume, man. Like, shout-out to those folks over there. He's doing great work. In fact, can we get some applause? Can we get some applause for us right now, like, collaborating, sharing spaces?Ade: Totally.Zach: I mean, come on. Let's do that. Let's do that. Maybe even some air horns too, I don't know. That reminds me though, [inaudible] sound effects, drops and stuff like that, we're also gonna new background music this season. Now, look. We got a lot of feedback. People are really feeling the background music. I'm gonna call it blackground music, right? It's jazzy. It's soulful. It's refreshing, right? It's good. It's good. We've gotten good feedback on it. So we're excited about the fact that we're gonna have some new blackground music this season and new mixes for our SoundCloud. So look, we have a decent amount of followers on SoundCloud. Of course we have our most followers on Instagram, but look, on our SoundCloud, y'all, we drop mixes and, like, custom music. I know, I know, I know. You're like, "What? Y'all doing a lot." I know. Ade: We got the aux cord.Zach: We got the aux cord, we got the aux cord. And listen, the mixes are fire. They're not--there's no profanity or nothing on 'em, so when your colleagues at work, when they ask, "Hey, Jamal, do you have any music you'd like for us to play? We're having a late-night working session here." This actually happened to me when I was in Japan working with my colleagues. They were like, "Hey, let's get some music going on. Let's get some music going on." So one of my colleagues, I'm not gonna say who it was, wanted to play some Nickelback. I was like--Ade: Now, hold on. Hold on, hold on. What? Zach: Okay. So Nickelback, yeah. And I'm like, "Hey, uh, Brock, if you could just hand me the charger--hand me the aux and I'll handle it." And I take the aux cord, I'm playing the music, and let me tell you. Fire. We had a good time. They were like, "Ooh, what mix is this?" Then--another example and I'll stop--I had an orientation. So at my job, my new job, orientation. For some reason they were like, "Hey, our music isn't really working." Like, "Our playlist isn't working." I said, "Okay, cool." I plugged in my little--plugged in the SoundCloud, right? Work and Weekend Vibes Volume 1. Man. The guy, right? Senior guy who was coordinating the whole thing goes, "Hey, this is--hey. Hey. Hey, guy! Hey. Music's pretty good." I said, "Thank you. Thank you." It was great. It was great. We had a great time. So the point is we're gonna have more of that, okay? And it's gonna be fire, so we need y'all to check it out. Now, I talked about drops, right? Like, we talked about kind of, like, sound effects and stuff like that. Ade, what kind of drops should we have? Like, we're not a hip hop podcast, right? Like, we're not gonna have gunshots, right?Ade: I mean, you know what? I just feel like there are occasions in which something so fire was said that a gunshot or two might be appropriate. Zach: [laughing] That's so problematic.Ade: Listen, listen. I just feel as though there are some celebrations that require a *brap-brap* or two.Zach: A *brap-brap*! [laughs] Well, the funny thing is that culturally, right, culturally, like, there are different--you know, it's just--it's different. I've seen videos, man, of cats, like, just--I saw a video at a wedding. Everybody had guns, shooting them thangs off at the end, right? Like, as opposed to throwing rice they was throwing bullets in the air. It was crazy.Ade: So listen, as someone who has been to many a Jamaican function, yes. That's all I'm gonna say to that.Zach: Word? That's the wave? That's the wave? I don't know. That's--wow.Ade: I mean, a graduation, a baby shower...Zach: A baby shower? They're shooting--wait, whoa, whoa. They're letting 'em go at the baby shower?Ade: Nothing is complete--no celebration is truly complete until there's gunshots in the air.Zach: Until you let them thangs go? Wow. So this is the scary part about gunshots, right, is that when you shoot 'em up like that, I mean, just because of the way that gravity works, they're gonna fall, right? They're gonna come back.Ade: [laughing] What goes up surely must come down.Zach: [laughing] They're coming down. Can you imagine? Like, that is scary. You're in your house and you hear [sound of bullets dropping], and it's not rain? Like, "That is the smallest, fastest hail I've ever heard in my life."Ade: All I want to say is that [the sound Zach made] is not how guns sound.Zach: [laughs] When they fall. When they fall though. When they fall.Ade: You know what? I still don't feel like metal sounds like [the sound] when it falls on the ground. Feel free to correct me on this one.Zach: You don't think so? [laughs] I just think--I just think because they're so small. Like, they're bullets. They've already been fired, so they're not--Ade: I mean, that's cute and all, but metal just doesn't sound like that.Zach: It don't sound like that? That's [inaudible].Ade: No. I also know that if I ever need some on the spot sound effects you're not gonna be the guy that I go to for--Zach: Wow. My sound effects are fire.Ade: Are they though? Because thus far you've given me [the sound] and *brap-brap*.Zach: So I've asked you--so look, we've completely derailed, right? I asked you what sound effects we need. You've only--you've suggested gunshots.Ade: Okay, first of all, I didn't suggest gunshots. I said that gunshots should not be entirely out of our arsenal--see what I did there?Zach: Wow. Bars.Ade: [laughs] Should not be entirely out of our arsenal of sound effects. That's all I am saying personally.Zach: So what are we thinking? Are we thinking, like, maybe stuff from, like, a different world? Right? Like, I don't know--Ade: You know what? I don't--I feel like we should stay away from, like, sitcom-y sounds, but also just not be dead... so there is an in-between here, and we just have to walk the road and find it.Zach: We do. So yeah, more on that. We'll figure out what exactly those sounds are.Ade: See the wisdom I just applied there without saying anything at all?Zach: No, no, you did. No, no, it was good. It was good, it was good. Ade: I appreciate my roses when I get them. I'm sorry. I'm acting a fool today. All right.Zach: Okay.Ade: Back to it. Favorite Things are back.Zach: Yeah, they back.Ade: However, this year--stay with me here--we want y'all to submit some of your Favorite Things.Zach: There you go.Ade: That's right. I'm tired of being clowned for my Favorite Things. I feel as though it is only fair that we open up our space to include others, open up our horizons by sharing with us what brings you some joy or the next week or the week after that.Zach: And you know what? Speaking of, like, sharing things, like, let me just--let me just talk about what we're sharing today, okay? We're sharing space. So you may say, "Well, yes, Zach, we are sharing space in this corporate structure as non-white people in majority-white working places, and yes, we have to figure out ways to share and navigate space--" No, no, no. I'm not talking about. I'm talking about we're practically sharing space today. Ade is sharing space in a golf room of her--of her apartment. So if you hear this, like, whooshing sound in the background, those are not beheadings. That's a man swinging at a golf ball with fiber in his being. He is hitting it as hard as he possibly can. He knows--Ade: As hawrd? Zach: Hawrd. Hawrd, yes, as he--as he possibly can. He knows that we are in this room, and this is how he's choosing to share the space with us. So--Ade: I just--first of all, he's--like, this is--this is the intended purpose of the room.*SMACK*Ade: That's one. Two, let it never be said that I don't go to some extremes for Living Corporate, okay? Because I have recorded--Zach: No, you've made--this is up there with when you recorded that show with Christa in the closet with all the blankets on top of your body.Ade: I have contorted myself into some very interesting places for Living Corporate, so I just--again, I appreciate my flowers when they are given to me.Zach: No, you are--you are appreciated, it's just I don't want to be implicated in any type of murder.Ade: See? See? Why you gotta be like that? *SMACK*Zach: Because it sounds--because it sounds so scary to me, right? Like, it sounds--Ade: Imagine being the person.Zach: Man, no, no. That sounds terrifying. Okay, let's continue. So I know we talked about Favorite Things. Listener letters.Ade: All right. Listener letters. So we're taking both Favorite Things and listener letters, wherever you're choosing to submit them. So whether you want to email them, DM us on social media--preferably Instagram, but wherever we be at, you be at--submit your Favorite Things, and we will absolutely shout you out, share your Favorite Things, and maybe talk through some of the irritating things, or awesome things, that are going on in your corporate world. So if you want to talk about your coworker accusing you of stealing their lunch, drop us a line. If you want to talk about the amazing win that you've had or the proposal that you just won or the grants that you just wrote or just about the fact that you don't feel like you're getting anywhere in your career at all. Whatever it is you want to share, let us know. We're here. What else?Zach: I mean, that's a good--that's a good point. We really want--we definitely want the letters, right? And we definitely want the Favorite Things, so just submit 'em. Like, we're flexible. We're available, right? We're here for y'all. We got all these domains, right? We got all these different social media platforms. DMs open on all of 'em, you know what I'm saying? You just hit us up. Of course we prefer it in email, so who cares? Send it to us.Ade: [laughs] Who cares what our preference is?Zach: Yeah, who cares about our preference? We are here to serve y'all. That's serving leadership, you see what I mean? Because we love y'all, you hear?Ade: I see you, change manager. I see you. Zach: That's right. Look, you gotta put yourself last, okay?Ade: I don't know about all that. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] "Wait a minute. Hold on."Ade: [laughs] Hold on, now. Nah, nah.Zach: "Hold on, hold on. Not last. Maybe not first." What about second to first? All right, so what else? Okay, yeah, yeah. So look. Now, we've said this--we've said this multiple times, and I need, like, some--I need, like, some softer sentimental music, kind of like the music before you donate to those dogs and stuff with their eyes all big and the cats, and they look all sad. I need that in the background. Ade: [supplies sad music acapella style]Zach: Listen, y'all know that we need 5 stars. Y'all know that we need 5 star ratings.Ade: You know I'm not about to do this with you, right? [laughs]Zach: For a simple two seconds. A one-time donation of 2 seconds. You can actually contribute to the over-arching health and promotion of the Living Corporate podcast if you just slide over to iTunes, the podcast section. Scroll down on Living Corporate's little page on the podcast. It's gonna say, "Leave a review. Leave a rating." You're gonna take your finger, and you're gonna just press 5. 5 stars. Ade: 5 of 'em.Zach: Do you have 5 on it? 'Cause I've had 5 on it, okay? Ade: [singing] I got 5 on it.Zach: Now, we're not gonna get copy--we're not gonna sued for that because we didn't play the audio. Ade: We didn't, and also Jordan Peele has made it kind of creepy, so...Zach: Yes, he has, and so we actually probably won't even reference that again. Ade: Yeah, that's gonna be the first and the last time we do that on the sh ow.Zach: Facts. But look, really, we need 5 stars, okay? So please do us the favor of giving us these 5 stars. And look, let me just go ahead--so that was the--that's kind of like the carrot, you know?Ade: Okay. First of all--there's no stick, number one. Number two, I just want to say we also appreciate your comments that come along with those. So if you want to share any feedback, if you'd like us to bring any guests back or a rerun episode or maybe get a little bit deeper on a topic that we've discussed in the past, let us know. But yeah, give us the 5 stars.Zach: So there's no stick, so I didn't mean it that way. That was me being softer, right? But, like, let me just be practical. We have, like, thousands upon thousands of downloads on our podcast every month, and yet we only have, like, 120 reviews. Ade: It's very hurtful.Zach: Right? It hurts me, right? I'm like, "Yo." And then people will be like--and then people be on Instagram, "This podcast influences me the most every day. I love listening to this podcast," and I feel the love, I do, but I would feel it more if I could get some of these 5 star reviews. So what can we do to, like, help support 5 star reviews? Like, how can we--how can we encourage the audience to participate in 5 star reviews, Ade?Ade: I have an idea.Zach: All right, go ahead.Ade: We could do giveaways. Zach: Giveaways? Giveaways is a--okay, okay, but what are we--what are we giving away? 'Cause it's not like we have--Ade: If you send us screenshots of your review, you enter a drawing. How's that sound?Zach: Right, but what do we have though? It's not like we have any, I mean--Ade: I mean, we do have Living Corporate mugs--hold on, I'm pretty certain we do. We have mugs.Zach: So that's an announcement, right? So that's, like, a two-in-one, right? We have mugs, and we're gonna do giveaways.Ade: Aye.Zach: Okay, so we do have mugs. I agree that we should do giveaways, so let's do that. Yeah, so we have, like, these Living Corporate mugs, y'all, and they're actually pretty cute. They're really cute. They're big, so, like, you know, you can put a lot of whatever your drink of choice is.Ade: Coffee. We're drinking coffee.Zach: Coffee. Listen, let's not--Ade: Although if you're making--if you're adding a little whiskey in there, that's between you and your cup.Zach: I've seen it. It's potatoes between you and your cup. Don't ask me about what's in my cup, you know? I won't ask.Ade: I really feel like that needs to be a thing. "Don't ask me about what is in my cup."Zach: Don't ask me about what's in my cup. No, I mean, I've seen it, and, you know--like, you see it on TV a lot, right? And I don't think it's, like, crazy, but I have seen people have a little something at the bottom of their drawer for the end of the day. I've seen that before. More so in industry. I've definitely never seen it in consulting, but I have seen it in industry. So okay. Cool, cool, cool. So yes, we definitely will do the giveaways. And they're not on the website yet, right? Like, we don't have the merch on the website, but we do have mugs. And we're not popping enough, I don't think, to justify us trying to sell y'all some mugs, okay, but we do have mugs that we can give out for free to encourage y'all to support the Living Corporate team.Ade: Word. Zach: What else? What else? Okay, okay, okay. So, you know, really this season of Living Corporate--so, you know, we learned a lot, right? Like, last season, of course it just being our first season--we're not even a year old yet. You know, coming in, just trying to figure out, like, what the tone is gonna be, how we address topics. And so y'all, really though, expect more intentional, like, commentary and content and just, like, general topics. Expect more fun, right? So we're gonna try to be a little bit more laid-back. Last year was really scripted. We got that feedback a lot, but we were trying to just make sure that we were keeping things succinct and tight, and we didn't want to miss--Ade: Because as you can see, we have a tendency to stray completely off-topic and wander down alleys of distraction, but--Zach: But, you know, it is what it is. And the thing--and the thing about it is, I think--I think the other point is, like, more people than not have said, "Hey, you know, we'd really like to, like, get to know y'all more." Like, "We'd like to get know you and Ade more, understand y'all's relationship. We'd like to get to know other people on the team. You said you've got other folks around." Like, "We'd like to get to know people more," and I think there's way that we can both approachable and personable and at the same time being, you know, still--like, still stick true to what it is we really ultimately want to talk about. But yeah, I just wanted to let y'all--just say that part, because we're really excited about this season, you know? Y'all know. Y'all know it's a crazy time out here. 45 got all us messed up. Yeah, I said it. I said it. Ade: I mean, these are just facts.Zach: They're facts. They're facts. They're facts. They're Facts Kellerman, okay? They're--[laughs] Hey, side-note. So apparently somebody in the DMV--Ade told me that some people be walking around saying "factory." [laughs]Ade: Hold on, what?Zach: So, you know, people will be like, "Facts." Ade: That sounds--that sounds like something that you say in, like, Waldorf. Zach: [laughs] You said "factory." Like, "factory?" That's not--no, factory is a whole different word. That's--no, that doesn't work.Ade: Nope, nope. And I know that there is, like, a trend of saying things are true when they aren't, word to your president, but...Zach: Factory.Ade: I'm here to categorically deny any and all claims that we say that in the DMV. We just--we do not.Zach: Yeah, no. That's not gonna work. Ade: Actually, let me not--let me not do that, because the teeny-boppers might. But what do they know? They're teeny-boppers.Zach: They don't know. They don't know. "Factory" is not the way. "Factory" is a whole other word. But the point is, you know, it's just a crazy time. Like, we know it is. We see--we're seeing stories of, like, blatant inequity and inequality and oppression and just general wrong-doing every day, and, you know, there's plenty of spaces that you can engage for, like, fairly moderate, semi-safe, (rarely?) wholly-safe discussions around--dialogues around race. Or, you know, you can tune into CNN or whatever for that. You can tune into anything else for that. Like, we're trying to have, like--Ade: Tune into who?Zach: I was saying, like, CNN. You know CNN. They'll be like, "A Dialogue On Race: Part 1." "A Dialogue On Race: Part 2." You know? Like, we're not trying to have quote-unquote a dialogue. Like, we're trying to really center and respect and give credence to the perspectives of people that are not often heard, right? Irrespective of how senior they may be in the organization or what their education level is. They're not heard, they're not seen, and so, like, we're trying to drive content that centers them, that affirms that, and that really continues to encourage folks to be thoughtful and empathetic to their neighbor. And, like, that's what we're trying to do. So, you know, this season is gonna be--our hope is it's gonna be way more courageous in that way. Not to say we weren't courageous in Season 1, but, like, I want to--I want to be more courageous season-to-season, right? Ade: Right, and to add to that and not interrupt you--my bad.Zach: No, you're good. You're good.Ade: Part of centering the voices of black and brown folks in this space means we're not going to be doing the "there are good people on both sides" BS, because I'm sorry, like, you're not gonna equate my voice to that of a Nazi.Zach: Right, yeah. That's super true.Ade: That's, like--of all the things that we're gonna do, that's just not going to be one of them on this here platform. And I'm sure there are--I mean, there are plenty of spaces in which you could do that. This just is not going to be one of those, and I'm perfectly comfortable categorically saying that.Zach: Yeah, straight up. Because this is the thing, like, it's not--and I think that's the other issue, like a lot of times when we have conversations like these, we present it like, "Oh, well, you know, both sides just need to understand." Like, no, both sides don't really need to understand. Like, one side needs to be more empathetic and conscious of their behaviors, actions, and their privileges, and the other side--the other side don't need to do nothing. Like, nah. I was gonna say we should be more--you know, we could be gracious and just kind of, like, be willing to receive the help, but, I mean, nah. Like, a lot of times we don't even necessarily need help as much as we just don't need harm. You know what I mean? And so anyway, I--Ade: You're my fav, Zach.Zach: What'd you say, Ade?Ade: You're my fav.Zach: [laughs]Ade: 'Cause you got there, 'cause I really was about to be like, "What was that?" No, but the fundamental premise remains that it's actually harmful that the conversation is constantly asking those without power to be gracious and to have mercy and be kind and do all of the emotional labor for those with power, and I'm not just speaking to racial dynamics. I'm also speaking in any and all forms of--and we know that intersectionality is a thing--but speaking to any and all forms of misaligned dynamics, power dynamics, and the onus is almost always on the oppressed to coddle the oppressor, and I'm just gonna say that 2019, it's not--that's not the wave we're on. You're either catching up or you're getting left behind, and I feel like we just took a very, like, sharp revolutionary turn [inaudible], so let's dial it back and talk about our social media. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Man, it did. I was like, "Dang, if I take that ball back and I continue with this wave, the next pivot's gonna be too aggressive." Let's transition back onto Instagram.Ade: [laughs] Right? This is the kickoff episode. Let's treat it as such.Zach: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ade: And we've definitely been going on for a nice little while now.Zach: [laughs] Well, this is the thing, right? Historically you're absolutely right, that it's often been the oppressed's job to massage the feelings, emotions, of the people who have--who are the oppressors, who are the people with authority, who have the power, privilege and access.Ade: One more thing and I promise I'll shut up.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: I won't.Zach: No, don't shut up. Go ahead.Ade: Here's the other thing. I wonder how much more we could be doing, and by we I mean just people who fall on the wrong side of the power dynamics. I wonder how much more we could be doing if we didn't expend all of this time and effort and energy and just emotional labor on managing the emotions of others, right? I wonder how much more--I think of it as "If I spend all of this time thinking through what my words will sound like as a woman, as a black woman, as a black immigrant, as a queer woman, as a Muslim..." Like, all of these things. So I think about all of the time that I think that I spend expending time and energy on making sure that I present myself appropriately. If I just took some of that time back, do you know how much more time I would have? How much more energy I would have to expend on things like sleeping?Zach: Straight up.Ade: Right? Or...Zach: Exercising. Drinking more water.Ade: Drinking more water, which--by the way, if you're listening with us right now go ahead and grab yourself a glass of water and just sip.Zach: Take a sip.Ade: Take a sip. Anyway, but I think the fundamental point remains that--and I'm not saying that everyone goes around all of the time carrying that weight, but it is a significant amount of time, and it's almost not even a conscious thing that you do anymore, that you, as a woman, apologize for speaking in a meeting. Like, "Sorry, I just wanted to say that..." What are you apologizing for, sis? Just say what you have to say. Say it with your chest. But that's part of this, like, training that you get as being the person on the wrong side of the power dynamics. In 2019, I would just like to say "That's done." That's canceled. That is over.Zach: That is canceled. We're not doing that, and, like, we really want for people to come here and genuinely feel affirmed. Like, I'll give a really quick story. So, like, when I was in Japan--first of all, Japan is amazing. I can't wait to go back. Beautiful country. I was in Tokyo. It's a beautiful city. And I'm walking just--like, I'm walking down the street, and I see, like, another young black man, and we kind of look at each other. I give him the nod, he gives me the nod, and I'm walking, and then, like, I kind of turn over my shoulder, and he's, like, turning over his shoulder at the same time, and, like, he's looking at me. Like, we're looking at each other again, and we smiled, and I just kind of--I turned back around and I was just like, "Dang," and, like, I ain't gonna lie. Like, call it corny, call it cheesy or whatever. That made me feel really good. Like, I felt great, and I carried, like, this little awkward smile with me for, like, I don't know, maybe like a minute, right? And there were no words exchanged. There was just a certain level of just--there was a certain level of power and just love that you felt from just being acknowledged and seeing someone in a space that you did not expect to see someone that looked like you look like you, and then they see--y'all see each other. And, like, Living Corporate, I think that whatever we can do to give--I would love for everybody to feel that feeling that I had that evening, for those, like, 65, 70 seconds. It was a great feeling.Ade: That's dope.Zach: Yeah, straight up.Ade: All right, let's close this out.Zach: Oh, yeah. Social media, social media. [laughs]Ade: Yeah, so follow us on social media. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Okay. So on Instagram we're @LivingCorporate, on Twitter we're @LivingCorp_Pod, then we got--well, Living Corporate, if you just Google us, you'll see us on LinkedIn. We're everywhere, so make sure you check us out. We're everywhere that y'all are, and I think that does it for us on the show. Remember, this is the kickoff. We have more content coming for you. [in accent] More fire for your head top. Was that a good accent? Or not really?Ade: No, sir. Please never do that again. Be blessed.Zach: [laughs]Ade: No, be best. Don't do that.Zach: Be best. [laughs] Ade: Whoo, all right.Zach: All right. Well, this has been Zach. Ade: This has been Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.

Zach and Ade stop by for a brief New Year's intermission in this special episode of the Living Corporate podcast. Living Corporate's CBE Week Series continues next week, but for now, enjoy this check-in! They discuss the importance of effective goal setting and share their New Year's resolutions.Find out more about CBEWeek here! https://www.cbeweek.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? That's right, it's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: Aye. And listen, we're not back back, and we ain't even really back, but we're here in the middle of our CBE Week Speaker Series.Ade: Yes.Zach: Yes, that's right, just to say Happy New Year.Ade: Happy New Year.Zach: Happy New Year. So look, it's 2019. Now, I don't know how many of y'all do resolutions or how often y'all do resolutions, but we had some resolutions we wanted to, you know, just talk about as we think about 2019, as we prepare for 2019 mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, all of that different stuff. So yeah, here we go. So Ade, look, before we get into these resolutions, do you do resolutions often? Like, is this a thing for you? Or is this, like, a new thing or what? Ade: So it's weird. I don't really do New Year's resolutions. I do birthday resolutions. I think that starting with the new year is not necessarily as significant for me personally as starting with my birthday, because my birth--I mean, not to sound self-centered, but it's about me and on my timeline, and so for me it's more honest, actually, to say that in my 23rd year, or in my 24th year, or in my 25th year, I would like to make these changes, and this is who I aspire to be, and becoming a better person starts on November 1st because that's when my life started. Now, January 1st is great though because it sort of allows you to have accountability partners, and you're better able to say, "Me and my group of friends will be doing XYZ in order to get to ABC goal." Does that make sense?Zach: Yeah, it does, definitely. No, I get that. You didn't ask me, but--no. [laughs]Ade: [laughing] Haha, haha. Well, you--I asked to clarify.Zach: Also I didn't really give you any space to say anything. [inaudible].Ade: You really didn't, you really didn't.Zach: No, I didn't. I just hopped right in there.Ade: You did, so back up off me, bruh. [laughs]Zach: [laughing] No, no, that's a good point. I mean, it's funny that you say that, 'cause I think--I'm not a big resolutions person. This is probably, like, the--I don't know, maybe fourth or fifth time in my life that I've done New Year's resolutions, but when I think about making resolutions to myself, typically they're around my birthday or more recently, in the past half-decade, they've been around my wedding anniversary with my wife. So we'll make them together, right?Ade: Dope, yeah.Zach: At the same time, I think whenever you can identify some type of pace or cadence to create some goals and points of progress of yourself, all good, right? It doesn't have to be--it can be whatever date you want it to be, but I think as long as you're doing--you're mindful of that in some way, I think it's good for you. Okay, so let's get into it. Do you want to go first or do you want me to go first?Ade: You go first. I think I liked what you were talking about earlier, and I want you to share with the people, you know? Look at me, a gracious host. [laughs]Zach: Look at you. [laughs] Okay, so my resolutions--so the first one is to read more, right? So I feel like I read a good bit. Like, I read--I read okay. Like, I definitely read a lot of articles. I read a lot of, you know, just pieces as they come up, especially as the world has been going on today. I read a lot of political pieces. I read The Atlantic often. I don't really read The New Yorker as much, but I read. I'd like to read more. I'd like to read about a book every other month. You see what I'm saying? I didn't give myself a crazy--like, "a book a month." Like, I'm not gonna do that.Ade: Look at you.Zach: Right? So I'd like to read six books by the end of 2019. The second thing is of course just continuing to get healthier. I want to be around. The world is crazy as it is, you know? Plenty of things could take you out any day, so you don't want one of those things to be yourself if you can help it. Ade: Right. Don't be your own enemy of progress.Zach: Right, do not be your own enemy of progress, yes. And then the third thing, which kind of connects to the second thing, drinking a lot more water, right? Ade: Hallelu.Zach: Right? So, like, you know, there are people out there--Ade: I just--I just want to take a second here. I really hate to interrupt you, but if you're listening, go ahead and find a glass of water and sip with us. All right, carry on, Zach.Zach: Yes, a sip. Sip, yes. No, seriously, it's delicious. You can have it cold. You can have it room temperature. You can have it hot, but-- Ade: Wait, hold on. Do you--do you just run around drinking hot water? [laughs]Zach: Ayo. So listen, actually--I do not, right? But I have a good friend of mine who--no, he loves hot water. Like, he loves it. Man, listen. Ade: Okay, I would like to speak to your--like, bring him on this show. I have so many questions.Zach: No, no. I'ma bring him on this show. I'm not gonna--I'm not gonna drop his name, 'cause this is very impromptu, but--Ade: This is--this is a safe space. I just have some questions for you, young man, because... huh? Okay, sorry. Carry on. I got us so off-track just then.Zach: No, no, no. So no, he does. He drinks hot water, and it was funny--so he's one of the people--I don't know if you have people like this in your life. You look up to them, like, to the point where, you know, if they do something that you're not really familiar with, and if other people did that thing you would clown them, but if they do it you're like, "Well, dang, why are you doing that? Let me--"Ade: "Maybe it's valid. Maybe I should give it a whirl."Zach: "Maybe it's valid. Maybe I should give it a whirl." "Maybe I should give it a whirl." Okay. [laughing]Ade: Okay, so first of all, you're not about to come for me, sir.Zach: "Give it a whirl"?Ade: "Give it a whirl." I said what I said.Zach: No, it's funny. [laughing] No, so he--so he was like--I came into his home and he was like, "Zach, so I've been drinking--I've been doing this thing. I've been drinking hot water," and I said, "Really? What?" And he said, "Yeah, would you like some?" And I said, "Sure," and let me tell you something, it was just hot water. It wasn't--I was like--Ade: I really was expecting to be like, "And it changed my life. It revolutionized how I look at water intake." No?Zach: No, it did not. In fact, I was like, "Man, I really would like some cold water right now." Anyway, where was I? Yeah, so drinking more water. So, you know, this kind of a case of two Americas. So there's a--for my non-melanated folks, you know, there's a phrase called "drinking water and minding your business." So drinking water and minding your business, it just saves a lot--it saves you a lot of stress and drama, right? So you look at Paul Rudd. Again, speaking to my--speaking to the majority, right? If you look at Paul Rudd, Paul Rudd is the greatest example of drinking water and minding your business, right? He looks great. He hasn't aged a day. He looks the same as he did in 1993. Right? He does. He looks phenomenal, right? Drinking water and minding your business--you know, I plan on drinking a lot of water, but I--because of the nature of our podcast, I don't know if I plan on minding, quote unquote, my business. I mean--you know what I mean? Like, my business is--yeah, like, my business--Ade: Your business is sort of everybody's business.Zach: Lowkey, right? Like, I'm not messy. Like, I'm not out here, like, Messy Mya. RIP Messy Mya. Look, now I'm talking to the black folks. I'm more so trying to--but I am trying to, like, be more hydrated, right? And, you know, there's the--our bodies are a majority water, so it's--everyone knows at this point it's 2019. Wow, it's 2019. So I don't have to--I shouldn't have to debate with y'all to drink more water, but please, drink more water. And also, speaking of--'cause, you know, we also do Favorite Things. We talk about music and stuff. A sleeper, shout-out Joe Budden Podcast, is the Mick Jenkins' "Drink More Water" project he put out, it was--Ade: You have lost me. You have lost me. I don't know what you're talking about. I also don't listen to Joe Budden's podcast, so maybe that's where the disconnect is right now, my friend. Zach: So "sleeper" is a term, like, you know, this is some music maybe y'all have missed or y'all don't really know about.Ade: Oh, 'cause the first thing I thought was a sleeper cell, and I was like, "All right, well, I--I have to bow out of this conversation, because I don't know anything about sleeper cells."Zach: No, no, no. No sleeper cells. Nothing like that around here. Please. Feds, please don't--don't get us. Ade: Right? We've got to go.Zach: Yeah, right? Now, look, we're gonna have to delete all of this, because Aaron's gonna transcribe this, and then it's gonna be all on Google and stuff. There's gonna be "sleeper cells"--Ade: Oh, see--nah, mm-mm. Aaron, just go ahead and--Zach: Delete all of this.Ade: Yeah. Zach: Yeah. [laughs] Anyway, so yeah, you know, I'm excited about that. I feel as if those are some smart goals. I feel like they're very attainable, they're realistic, and they're helpful for me for what I'm trying to do, right? They're very straightforward. So that's me. Those are my New Year's resolutions.Ade: Okay, okay. Now, I want to push back a little bit. Part of what is important when you're setting goals is to set intentional goals, right? There's this concept of SMART goals, and so that is--so you set Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-bound goals, and that way you have much more--you're more likely to achieve those goals. So by specific, I mean [inaudible] drink water--by smart I mean you want to drink water, so do you want to drink a gallon of water a day? Do you want to set time goals, like, "By 9:00 a.m., I've had 16 ounces of water." So I think goals and resolutions are all talk until you are able to really discern for yourself what those goals are, how you're going to make them happen, and what that timeline's gonna look like. So I'm gonna repeat what SMART is. You have Specific, you have Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-bound or Time-sensitive goals. So to give you an example, this year, in 2019, I want to get my solutions architect cert, my AWS solutions architect cert. I want to do that by July '19. So that is a specific goal. It's measurable because it's a certification, it's achievable 'cause, I mean, I can study for it. It's relevant to my larger kind of goal for my life, and it's time-bound. I have set a hard deadline of July 2019 to get that certification, do you see what I'm saying?Zach: No, I definitely understand what you're saying, and you're right. So opposed to me saying, "I want to drink more water," I should be saying, "I want to drink about a gallon of water a day." Instead of me saying, "I want to get healthier," I should say something like, "I'd like to work out at least two to three times a week and cut out sugary and processed foods." And, you know, I kind of did it with the book one when I said I'd like to read a book every other month. So no, I get it. You're absolutely right, and to your point, when we--when we're not specific and really truly smart--let's go ahead and just give out the acronyms to smart real fast. So it's--Ade: Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-bound. Now, there are also some people who say it's SMARTER, where you have all of those that I just mentioned, and then you have Evaluated and Reviewed, which I think are also important parts of the goal setting process, but we don't have to go quite that far right now.Zach: [laughing] No, no, no. This is great. So, you know, it's important, because I think we--the less specific we are with the goals that we say we have, the more of an out we give ourselves to short-change ourselves in the future, right? So--and then also, if they're not specific to you, then you can end up kind of moving the goal posts on yourself and not really ever achieving [inaudible]. So if you say, "Man, I really want to lose some weight," right? I'm gonna pick on losing weight because losing weight is--like, almost everybody feels like they either need to or would like to lose some weight.Ade: Or the alternative for those of us skinny-minis who want to gain some weight, but gain healthy weight.Zach: There you go. Some people want to gain some healthy weight. Thank you. Let's be inclusive of all of our body types and health spaces. Ade: Aye.Zach: Aye. [laughs] So when you say, "Hey, I'd like to have this health goal," if you're not really specific in, like, the numbers you're trying to achieve or the--just what you're outcome is, then you can end up saying, "Well," you know, "I didn't really have to work out today. I just want to work out more," and you end up--you end up cheating yourself. Or you say, "Well, I didn't say I wanted to eat perfectly healthy. I just wanted to eat more vegetables," and it's like, "Okay..." And you just end up cheating yourself. So I think the more specific you can be and, like, more granular you can be with what your goals are, the harder it will be for you to ignore the fact that you're either off-track on them or not really driving towards them. So I super agree with that.Ade: Right. On that note, I'll share some of my goals. And I know I got on you for SMART, and some of mine aren't necessarily SMART goals, but we move. Anyway, so I would like to read and discuss five meaningful articles a week. Zach: Okay, okay.Ade: So that's whether they're in The Atlantic or whether I'm scrolling through Medium and some of the software engineering spaces that I follow. I'd like to be able to read and discuss five articles, and part of that is in finding some of the computer science fundamentals. Base CS has some really great--I don't know if I want to even call those articles, but some really great write-ups on computer science fundamentals, which are important for me to learn. So I'd like to do that five times a week. I would like to get my solutions [inaudible] earlier, my AWS solutions architect certification, by July 2019. This is--this next one I haven't quite figured out how I'm gonna do yet, but I want to reinvent my wardrobe. Now, I say that because I was having a conversation with my partner, and often times when we're out or we really have to go out, I'll just, like, throw on sweatpants and a t-shirt or whatever, and then when we get out I'll complain about looking like a hobo. Okay, that wasn't necessarily how I wanted to say that, but I'll complain about not looking my best self.Zach: Right.Ade: And part of that is just I didn't--I don't necessarily have all of the pieces that I want, and I want to show up, like, how I feel. I want to show up looking and representing myself in my best light, and so part of that--I'm still always going to be a joggers and tennis shoes kind of girl, but I don't have to be a four sizes too large sweatpants and t-shirt that I bought when I was in 7th grade sort of girl, you know? So that's important to me as well. I want to go to the gym once a week and work out of home three times a week. I'm going to create three projects for my portfolio, and I'm going to attend AfroTech in November this year. Those are my goals.Zach: That sounds--that sounds incredible. Those are great goals.Ade: AfroTech is also lit, and if anybody's trying to sponsor me to go to AfroTech, hit your girl up.Zach: Man, listen. Y'all want to sponsor Ade, y'all want to sponsor Living Corporate and we'll send Ade? Man, let's--come on. Get in our inbox.Ade: Let's go. Let us know.Zach: DMs are open for everybody. They are. True.Ade: Okay, uh, let's clarify. Not that open. [laughing]Zach: They are though. They're open on all the social medias. No, but that's--you know, to your first point, it's so interesting how, like--so as kind of, like, a fashion point, like, if you notice, like, there's--there's enough clothes out here to curate a bunch of different looks. Like, if you want to be, like, hobo chic, right, you could get, like, some really form-fitting--Ade: I'm trying to--I'm trying to really walk away from the hobo chic look, because I thought that was what I was doing. Upon further reflection, it's just--it's further towards the hobo end of the spectrum than the chic, so we're just gonna let that dream go.Zach: Got you, got you. 'Cause I was gonna say, like--and I don't know, like, what your preference is, but, like--you know, 'cause you could wear, like, some fitted--not fitted, but, like, nicely-fitting sweatpants, right? You could wear some nicely-fitting sweatpants.Ade: You're right, you're right. Look, if there are any listeners who are designers, who have an eye for fashion, hit your girl up, because I am confused. Okay? Okay.Zach: [laughs] And then [inaudible], that's also great. And then the five [inaudible] with these articles--you're gonna share the articles with me.Ade: Ooh, bet. I like that, yes. We can do that.Zach: Yeah, share the articles with me, 'cause I love--I love reading a good article. I think it's easier to read than reading a whole book. It's, like, typically one subject. It's not clearly as long, but I love articles, so yeah, please. I'd love to check out what you got going on. Then AfroTech of course, that's super dope.Ade: Yeah, yeah. I'm really ready.Zach: Okay. Now, look, I think--I know those are our resolutions. Before we get out of here though, what was the best thing you ate over the holiday break? Ade: Ooh. Oh, Lord. Jesus. I just want to let everybody know about the greatness of my girlfriend's shrimp and grits. So on New Year's Day, she made shrimp and grits, I made rum cheesecake-stuffed French toast, and we lived our best lives. Do you have actually--before we move forward, do you do the pork chop, collard greens, and black-eyed peas ritual?Zach: So I don't--it's not, like, a super traditional thing. Like, we don't do it every year, but I definitely have had it, like, multiple times in my life for New Year's. And, you know, outside of New Year's, but yeah. Ade: Yeah. So I did that as well.Zach: Oh, yeah. That's good.Ade: So for those of you who don't know, some African-American families, some black families, have a tradition wherein in the New Year they eat a pork chop or a pork product of some sort, black-eyed peas, collard greens, and some will throw in cornbread. And I made all of it. I don't eat pork obviously, but she enjoyed it. She seemed to like her plate, so that was great. And what else did we eat this break? We didn't spend a whole ton of time cooking a whole lot, but cooking is my favorite thing. I made a really dope burger for us both. It was--I don't know. I can't wait to cook for you honestly. I want you to come here so that I can feed you, and I'm honestly probably not gonna help your goals of losing weight, but the important part is that the food tastes good.Zach: No, I'm excited. I'll just have to--I'll just do a bunch of pre-workouts, you know what I mean? And post-workouts. It's all good.Ade: See? Yeah, there you go. There you go. And you might have to do two-a-days honestly, but--Zach: Wow, okay. Appreciate the honesty. So what else? So we talked about food. We talked about--we talked about our resolutions. Hm. Ade, what are you most excited about in 2019?Ade: I am most excited about leveling up. I think every new year is an opportunity to excel, and again, this is part of why I kind of count my new year at my birthday as opposed to at the calendar date, but it's a new year to kind of show the little person that you once were how dope everything could be, how dope you could be, how dope life could be, how dope you could make life be for those around you, and part of that is in wanting to wake up every day and crush it. And I don't mean to sound like we're in a huddle and I'm giving you a pep talk, but I think it's exciting when you're able to look your fears in the face, or look a whole new year in the face, and be like, "Yeah, I'm comin' for you." I was gonna say, "I'm coming for that" something else, but I don't think we're quite that explicit on this show.Zach: No, we're not that explicit. That's funny though.Ade: Okay. [laughs] Ultimately, I am excited about being granted another opportunity to get it right and get it right and excel at it, you know? So what are you excited about?Zach: Well, you know, it's funny. I really feel like I'm excited about the same thing. Like, 2019, it's an exciting time because there's so much positive momentum that I'm hearing from last year. Relationships made, some in-roads created with various things and people and projects, and of course Living Corporate. I'm really excited to continue that forward. We have a whole--[Lord say the same?]--we have another 12 months of this thing going on, you know, unless the earth ends, and so I'm excited about us just continuing forward. There's so much to do, especially when you talk about inclusion and diversity work. I feel like the whole field has just been blowing up the past few years, and it seems like every year, like, there's something new that comes along, some new, quote unquote, new piece of learning that everyone's gravitating towards, and I just think that, like, we're ripe in the season to be doing the work that we're doing. So I'm really, really excited about that. I'm excited about the content that's gonna be coming out of the Living Corporate platform. We have a writing team that we're very aggressively building up right now. We have some amazing guests that--you know, that you all will be hearing for Season 2. We just have a lot of stuff--we just have a lot of stuff cooking, and so I'm excited for us to grow, and then I'm really excited for our audience to see it and be a part of it and hopefully grow with us. I'm really excited about that.Ade: Yeah, that's amazing.Zach: Okay. Well, I guess that does it. I'm done. Do you have anything else, Ade?Ade: Yeah. So I just want to wish everybody a happy, safe New Year. I hope that, even if your year hasn't started on the highest note--if 2018 was not good to you, I pray that 2019 will, and I pray that, you know, this New Year is full of opportunities for you, and I hope that we are able to help foster a space that excites you and motivates you. That's it from me. Zach: Man, you always got the dope words. See, that's a great sign-off. [both laugh]Zach: That's a great sign-off. Yes, okay. Well, listen, y'all. You will be hearing more of us on the Living Corporate podcast later this month. This was just a New Year's hello kind of intermission type thing in the middle of our CBE Week Speaker Series. I hope that you all are listening to the series. I'm looking at the download numbers. Y'all are, but I need y'all to pick it up. That's right, I'm talking to you. Listen to the--listen to the show. Listen to the series. It's very good, and then make sure that you stay tuned, because we're gonna have more information about CBE Week as it comes up. So with that being said, my name is Zach.Ade: And I'm Ade. Both: Peace.