Podcasts about zach thank

Getting voice messages is very encouraging. Thank you for taking the time to send them in. Currently reading Ezekiel and will have that out soon. Would it help if I upload a chapter a day instead of waiting until the whole book (or 1/2 the book) is recorded? Please let me know by answering the poll. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/natalieJoyBible/support

Description:  The world's best Lifestyle Engineer, Zach White is sharing how losing his focus and balance ended in burnout and divorce. In his words: Nothing prepared me for the darkest days of my life. While he would never wish a tragedy on anyone, he was thankful for this experience. It forced him to ask bigger and better questions, and he was able to completely transform the way he works and how he lives, and he is going to share his wisdom with us today. Shownotes:  Zach shares his personal story of how losing his focus and balance led to burnout and ultimately, divorce. He reflects on the darkest days of his life and how this experience forced him to ask bigger and better questions, which led to a complete transformation in the way he works and lives. Zach's journey is an inspiring one, and he generously shares his wisdom with us, providing insights into how to achieve balance, focus, and success in both our personal and professional lives. From his personal experiences, Zach has developed a unique approach to coaching, one that is holistic and takes into account all aspects of an individual's life.   In this episode, we discussed:  Losing focus and balance can have serious consequences, including burnout and personal upheaval. Difficult experiences can lead to personal growth and transformation as long as we're willing to ask bigger and better questions. Zach's holistic approach to coaching takes into account all aspects of an individual's life and can help us achieve balance, focus, and success in both our personal and professional lives.   Connect with Zach White:  Website - https://www.thehappyengineerpodcast.com   Podcast - https://plnk.to/the-happy-engineer Zach White on Linkedin   Connect with Sabine Kvenberg:  Sabine Kvenberg on Facebook Sabine Kvenberg on Instagram Sabine Kvenberg on Linkedin Sabine Kvenberg on YouTube BECOME Podpage Sabine Kvenberg Resources   Transcript 00:00:00 Zach: The thing that will stand between you and your dreams is fear. And so we need to step out of our comfort zone, have the courage to face those fears, and take action in our life. So if there's one thing I could tell you, it's to crush comfort and create courage because the life of your dreams will not be found in your comfort zone. And the sooner you embrace that and start living out at the edges of what's possible for you, the faster you're gonna see your life increase in ways you could not even imagine. 00:00:34 Sabine: Hello, my name is Sabine Kvenberg, founder and host of BECOME. The  content will inspire you to reach your aspirations and become the best version of yourself. I feature interviews with successful individuals from various industries, delving into their personal and professional journeys and their strategies to achieve their goals. We have to become the person we are meant to be first. So we can live life, we are destined to live. That means we must overcome challenges and work through difficult times to learn, grow, and become the new more fabulous version of ourselves. I'm so glad that you are here. Let's get on this journey together. 00:01:25 Sabine: I had the pleasure of sitting down with the world's best lifestyle engineer, Zach White. If you want to see results in your life, you have to have the courage to step out of your comfort zone and pair that courage with a proven system of success, what he calls  Lifestyle Engineering. And you can accelerate more than just your career. And this is what I talked with Zach about in our interview. Not only is he sharing his story, but you will learn what it takes to have more balance. Welcome, Zach. I'm so happy to have you as my guest today. 00:02:04 Zach: Oh, Sabine, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.  00:02:09 Sabine: Oh, let's get started by, just, tell us where you are right now. I think you are somewhere in Michigan, is that right? 00:02:19 Zach: Yeah, yeah. You found me sitting in my office, which is in a coworking space here in southwest Michigan. A small lake town. If you're not from the area, you wouldn't know it, but it's called Benton Harbor and just a mile from beautiful Lake Michigan. And I was mentioning  to you before the recording, so we were finally feeling some springtime weather, which for Michiganders, is a big deal, like putting that cloud cover and cold weather behind us, ready for some sunshine and some lake life. So bring it on. 00:02:53 Sabine: Oh, right. All right. And yeah, here, the sun is out, but here in Florida, it is seasonably cold. We are in the 60s, and for, end of March, it's pretty cold. So. But I guess, it all depends on. 00:03:11 Zach: That's right. It's all relative. Uh, 67. I can't wait for 67. That's, we're still a month or two away from 67, Sabine.  00:03:20 Sabine: So Zach, you are a lifestyle engineering coach now, but you started out as an engineer. So how did you go from engineer solving problems to totally shift lifestyle? So how did that happen? 00:03:45 Zach: Yeah, well, I joke, Sabine, that I'm a mechanical engineer by my degrees, but I'm a lifestyle engineer through the school of hard knocks and life lessons. So my actual background is in mechanical engineering. To your comment, I have my bachelor's from Purdue and my masters from U of M, both in mechanical engineering. And I went into Whirlpool Corporation to build my engineering career with big aspirations and big goals. Just like most engineers who come outta college, do wanna make a name for yourself, make an impact, go get those promotions, and build a successful career. And in the journey towards that success, I made some big mistakes and I ended up burning out, finding myself divorced and depressed and disappointed with how my career had gone, but more importantly, how my life fell apart in the process. And it was the recovery from that rock bottom experience where lifestyle engineering was born, asking new questions, finding new ways to succeed, that considered my whole life's success, not just my career. And very happy to say it worked. I had incredible success after, and that's what then led to me doing this full-time as a coach and as a CEO of Oasis of Courage. 00:05:08 Sabine: Oh, fantastic. But one thing that you said, I think is so oftentimes overlooked, and that is the fact that sometimes we have to hit rock bottom to realize what we really ought to do in this world and what gives us the joy and the freedom to live a happy and fulfilled life. So when you started working and you had all the successes and your career took off, what was it that really made you realize the career is not everything? So what was that darkest time in your life that really made you, shall I say, wake up?  00:06:03 Zach: The wake up call moment in anyone's journey is always, you know, very, you know, poignant, easy to remember exactly where I was. And Sabine, I'll tell you the story in my world, at the time, everything was fine. You know, I thought I had it all under control. And I was on a work trip out in Tennessee working at one of the factories where Whirlpool has a manufacturing facility. And Sabine, I came home from the trip and I was tired. It'd been a long trip, working long hours. And I really hadn't talked to my spouse very much while I was gone. And I was expecting to come home, to her being there. And the house was empty. And I walked in and I was confused, thought maybe she went out, you know, I called, she didn't answer. And then I'm walking around the house and I found a note on the table that essentially said, I don't think this is working. I'm ready to get divorced.  00:07:05 Zach: And that moment for me was the wake up call. That's when my entire world came crashing down around me. And the truth is, looking back, Sabine, that I was lying to myself about everything being okay. The signs were there long before that moment, that things were not going well at home. But I had chosen to ignore it. I had chosen to pretend outwardly that everything was okay, and I just put my focus on the things that were working, and I ignored the things that were not working. And as you can imagine, the tension between that just grows and grows. And, you know, eventually to your point, if you don't do something, you hit rock  bottom. And I'll be honest, that was a very, very painful night. I mean, a lot of tears, a lot of heartache, but some powerful things shifted that night in my life. And it began with being honest with myself and being honest with the people who loved me. You know, calling my sister, calling my mom, telling them the truth for the first time that my life was not what I was pretending it was, and I needed help. 00:08:13 Sabine: Wow, what you said was so impactful that number one, we oftentimes, choose not to see the signs. We try to avoid and ignore them because it's uncomfortable.  00:08:32 Zach: Yeah.  00:08:32 Sabine: But if we do more of those, it becomes even more uncomfortable or even worse, like in your case, you found your house empty. What I liked, what you just shared, that for the first time, you were honest, you called your parents and your mom, your sister, and really told them as it was. Isn't it so true sometimes, in family we hide what's going on and because we don't wanna show our weaknesses perhaps? So what was the process once you get really raw and honest? What was the process for you as far as getting through it? 00:09:24 Zach: Grief comes first. You know, I'll be honest, the first few days or weeks, Sabine, were just kind of messy. Very messy. A lot of tears, a lot of confusion. But the relief of telling the truth the way I did, gave me enough weight off of my shoulders to take a next step. And for me, beyond just talking to the people I love, that was going to see a counselor, getting on the calendar, going and working with a professional therapist, that's saying, hey, this is happening. I need help. I'm in a lot of pain. And the grief is real. And you go through these stages of suffering and grief. And that was very real to me. It was very, I mean, physically painful, emotionally painful, spiritually painful to go through. But I think the most important thing was the willingness to sit in that place, to just allow the pain to be present. 00:10:22 Zach: And that's something that I was dodging to your point earlier, Sabine, like pretending that it wasn't there for so long. There was a lot of built up negative energy in my life that needed to be let go. And so that was the first stage, was just a willingness to let my life be a mess for a while, and acknowledge that I wasn't as, you know, well put together as everybody thought I was. But from there, after, you know, you're in that kind of trough place. Your face is grinding against the floor of rock bottom as it were, right? You know, then you stand up and you start to just put one foot in front of the other. And what I tell everybody, who I've coached, who's gone through any form of burnout or suffering or a rock bottom experience like this, or if you're going through it right now, you have to bring the time horizon in a little bit. 00:11:12 Zach: We're not gonna solve the whole thing in one move. We're not gonna go, create the perfect life in one day. Let's zoom, way in. I like to call it drawing smaller circles. Rather than solving for the big equation, let's just solve, for this afternoon, what are we gonna do this afternoon to make sure it's a little bit better than yesterday, to make sure we're not going back to those same patterns or habits that got us stuck in the first place and put one foot in front of the other. And as we build momentum, we can begin to extend that time horizon again and think about bigger goals and longer term dreams again, you know, entering into a new relationship. Again, in my case, all of those things. But at the start, let's just focus on the moment in front of us, right? What's the next thing we need to do in drawing those smaller circles and prioritizing a shorter time horizon because it's so overwhelming. We don't have the cognitive ability to go think about these longer term things. So that's my most important lesson from that time, was look, when you're really under pressure, when you're really overwhelmed, or if your life is completely confusing and falling apart, let's just zoom, way in. You don't need to solve everything. Let's just get today buttoned up the best we can, make the best next decision, and then we can come back to tomorrow. 00:12:33 Sabine: It's so true. Couple things that I got out of what you just shared. Number one, the willingness to sit and let it pass. And also recognize our grieve, our suffering, and not just chopping it away, because if we don't let it out, it just fester and make us perhaps bitter or whatnot, right? So. 00:12:59 Zach: Yeah. 00:12:59 Sabine: Just going through that process is a resolving process and resolving journey. And then you were able to move forward again. And what you did, you got help. And we all need help at one point or another in certain situations.  00:13:21 Sabine: May is stroke awareness month. Life Line Screening can help detect someone's risk of having a stroke or cardiovascular disease. Each year, more than 700,000 people attend one of those screenings for peace of mind or early detection. And I am one of them. You see, my mother passed away from cardiovascular disease and I want to do everything I can to feel safe. So join me and schedule your screening today. To book your appointment, simply click the link in my show notes. 00:14:02 Sabine: Have you ever tried to build your own website, start a newsletter, or build a course and charge for it? Have you ever wanted to make money online but are totally confused by all the different systems you need to have? That's why I use Kajabi. You can build your webpages, blogs, and membership sites. You can create offers, check out pages, and collect money. You can host your videos, you can start your newsletter list, capture emails, start your marketing funnels all in one place. It makes it fun and easy with awesome tutorials and support. Since I've joined Kajabi from the beginning, I have a special affiliate link that I would like to share with you. A 30 day free trial. So nothing to lose, but everything to gain. Just go to my link that's in the show notes, sabinekvenberg.com/resources and we will redirect you to the free trial page. And if you are just starting out and want to get your offer out for sale in just three days, let me help you do that. Visit my webpage, by the way, that I build on Kajabi and apply to making it happen. Now, let's get back to the show. 00:15:33 Sabine: So after you went through that grieving process, and another thing that I liked what you're saying, taking one step at a time, cuz that's another thing I believe a lot of people think, oh, they have to resolve everything either in their personal life or even in business venture. If you have to go through a very challenging situation sometimes, no, you cannot go from A to Z in one step. You have to take steps in between. And those little steps, when was your decision to actually make changes in your life after you got through that grieving process that really led you to become the lifestyle engineer that you are today? 00:16:25 Zach: Yeah, Sabine, there was a point, and I wish I could pinpoint exactly when, but I really can't. It's something that came gradually through the healing journey where I realized that the passion and the ambition inside of me to be successful in my career, to make an impact with my life and in the world through engineering and through, you know, the great mind that God had given me and the the skills that I had and that was still inside me, right? Going through burnout and divorce and depression did not eliminate something that was born inside me and my purpose for life. And I still had that fire there to do something. But right next to the fire for achievement was this fear of going through something like I had gone through already. It's like, there must be a different way to go, achieve something meaningful with my life but not suffer like this. 00:17:26 Zach: And it was that moment where I said, okay, I don't know the answer to that, but I'm unwilling to do nothing. I would rather keep going and try again and fail again than do nothing. I'm more afraid of, you know, getting to the end of my life with regrets than I am afraid of failing again. And so that's when I hired my first coach. I had worked with a therapist on the grief and this idea of recovery and healing, but I knew from other people who I had as mentors and people I respected, that coaching was a powerful catalyst to forward progress and change and making results happen in your life. So I hired a coach and I presented them with this challenge and said, hey, I want success, but I don't want to go through this again. There must be another way. I need help. 00:18:16 Zach: And I began working with a coach and, you know, the rest is history in a way. I went on to five promotions in five years. I doubled my income, I had an incredibly fun time working less hours than I ever had before. And along the way, I captured all these lessons and really distilled it down for the engineering mind because, you know, as an engineer, we think a  bit differently. We approach the world a bit differently. And that became the lifestyle engineering blueprint that we now coach our clients in. But it was honestly just learning as I went, how to do this in a different way. 00:18:50 Sabine:Yeah. And as you said, as we experience, as we learn, we can implement and teach it to others. So how do engineers learn differently and what's the difference between an engineering mind and everybody else's mind? 00:19:08 Zach: Oh, we don't have enough time on this podcast to talk about all of the differences. You know, if you are an engineer, you already understand and appreciate some of this and most people know at least one engineer. And you can point to some of the stereotypes that are common. So let's just, you know, be honest about what these things are. For one, generally speaking, we'll paint with broad brushes here, more introverted, more shy, generally speaking, they see the world in a black and white way. And I'll include myself in this. I used to be this way because we're trained to go find the right answer. And mathematics and science and most of the schooling that we go through is all rooted in learning the principles and applying them to problems in a way that finds the solution. And we end up in this very narrow approach to living where everything has a solution and often it's one right answer. 00:20:03 Zach: Then we come outta college and go into our careers. And it's hard enough to face the reality that there's more than one way to design something or to solve the problem. Then you add on the complexity of all the emotional and social intelligence required to work on these complex cross-disciplinary teams. And it really can be overwhelming for a lot of engineers to adapt to that. On top of that, let's put even one more layer. The engineering mind is trained to go find everything that can break, everything that can go wrong, all the points of failure in every system. That's what we get paid to do. And we wanna take everything to a point of failure in life. It's like, this is the way we think in terms of design. Well, anybody who's in psychology or cognitive behavioral therapy or coaching will tell you, if the thing that you focus on constantly is the negative side, if all you're looking for are points of failure and what can go wrong, that's what you're going to continue to get more of and create, especially in your relationships. And people get frustrated at engineers for always, you know, shutting down their ideas or telling them how things can go wrong or not. Well, let's forgive them in a way cuz it's the only thing we're taught.  00:21:22 Zach: And that creates a lot of problems in our relationships and in our lives as well as in your career development. So that's just naming a couple of obvious ones, Sabine. There's more, but we need to adapt the way we think about career growth and then lifestyle design. This idea of balancing the rest of our lives in the context of those challenges. You know, how do we overcome that in a way that engineers can wrap their heads around, which means systematically in a logical way, in a way that's gonna align with their strengths. Not just go tell an engineer, hey, stop being like an engineer. Like, that doesn't work. You can't just tell somebody to stop being themselves. 00:22:03 Sabine: No, that's so true and I really admire that you tackle that from that perspective, being an engineer. I mean, our two worlds can't be any more far apart because I'm on the total of the spectrum. I'm a creator. You know, I'm a performer. I'm just like. 00:22:26 Zach: Yes. 00:22:27 Sabine: Hey, show me the world, right? And math was never my strong point. I am not getting satisfaction with solving problems. I mean, I do, right? But you know what I'm saying?  00:22:41 Zach: It's  different. It's different.  00:22:42 Sabine: It's just different, right? But as you said, the engineers in this world and even if you are not an engineer, you might be an introvert, you might be a problem solver. That's your mentality, that's your personality. And those people are probably looking for a coach like you who can approach it from that angle. So I like that. 00:23:10 Zach: Yeah, you're right. It's not unique to engineers, that's just a group that I really resonate with. But for example, we have a client in our program right now who works in sales, but her mindset is an analytical one, and she has some of these same qualities in her approach and her background. And you would think, sales, how is it possible to be an introvert and succeed in sales? Well, you'd be amazed, you know, it's not uncommon for someone to end up in a place where they are constantly having to face some limitations, where their personality doesn't serve them in their role. And this is an example where someone says, okay, I really need to overcome these things in order to be successful, even more so than an engineer might. And so, yeah, there's a lot of people who connect with this approach, who may not be in STEM professions. 00:24:01 Sabine: And you also have a podcast called the Happy Engineer Podcast. So tell us about that podcast. Who are your guests and what you're trying to achieve with it? 00:24:15 Zach: Well, the Happy Engineer was named that because at the end of the day, if you get big success in your titles and promotions at paychecks, but you hate your life, then we have not succeeded yet. So I really believe, Sabine, what we're all looking for here is to love the journey towards our dream and our vision. So the Happy Engineer is an entire series of conversations around that idea. How do I build my career to the level that I want, whether that's CTO or just senior engineer, it doesn't matter. But also balance what I love in the rest of my life, to honor the time I want with my family, to take care of my health, to really look at myself as a whole person and not become a victim to some of the cultural challenges of, especially big organizations where the pressure to deliver can be so high and engineers are stressed out.  00:25:09 Zach: Engineers are struggling with dealing with all these demands, especially when you add a spouse and some kids and a mortgage and all these other challenges of living life. So the Happy Engineer Podcast brings guests from engineering, you know, folks who've succeeded at this and are living on the other side of the lessons learned, as well as people from these other disciplines who can help us to address areas where we're not strong. You know, health coaches or mindset coaches, people who can really dig into the areas that an engineer may not explore very often on their own. Because we tend to be drawn to the sciences and we love to listen to tech speak and that kind of thing. So it's a very well-rounded set of conversations because I really do believe we wanna be well-rounded in our success. 00:25:54 Sabine: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I go onto podcasts with the wisdom that I can contribute to the audiences and, you know, it's all about that balance, right? And when we are open to listen to the other person or to the other “side,” just in general, it is very important to be open. Otherwise, we are getting so narrow minded, so almost, like the horses with those, what you call it, the sight. 00:26:33 Zach: The blinders. Yeah. 00:26:34 Sabine: The blinders, exactly. And you see it in all areas, you know, of personal and work related politics. Oh, my goodness. If we are not open to listen to others, then we can get really, really stuck.  00:26:49 Zach: No doubt.  00:26:50 Sabine: So, yeah. 00:26:51 Zach: Well, and you are a great role model of this, Sabine. I mean, I love your content. I actually just listened to episode 41 of Become with [Brandon Kumar Sammi]. He was on my podcast as well. And just the power of those conversations and the idea of becoming what this whole show is about, it begins with that openness. If you don't lean into a growth mindset and  an open coachable spirit, then you're gonna miss that opportunity to become the best version of yourself. So I think there's no one better to talk about this than you. 00:27:23 Sabine: Oh, good. Good. So, well maybe I'll… can tell something to your listeners as  well and contribute to your listeners. I would love to, but well, we are out of time. Oh, my goodness. You know, I always like having wonderful conversations. I could go on. 00:27:42 Zach: I know. I know. 00:27:43 Sabine: Forever and ever. So if people want to get in touch with you, what would be the best way? 00:27:51 Zach: Thank you, Sabine. And for what it's worth, I agree, we could go all day. I understand why Joe Rogan and some of these other podcasters have three and four hour long episodes because it's so fun to have these chats. You know, you mentioned the Happy Engineer Podcast already, and if someone out there is listening who wants to hear more from me or get deeper into lifestyle engineering, just wherever you're listening to become, jump over and give a  follow to the Happy Engineer. You'll find us on all the platforms. But if this really resonates for you, maybe you are an engineer or you know one who really needs help with this and is looking for support to build their career and get to the next level, it would be an absolute honor to give you a free coaching session and share with you what we do and how we support people and see if it's a fit to work together. So if that's you, then grab your phone and send a text message right now. The word, Lifestyle. The word Lifestyle, send that to 5-5-4-4-4. It's one of those short codes, really simple, Lifestyle to 5-5-4-4-4. We'll send you the information to get on our calendar. And if it's a fit, we'll get you a free session with me and provide as much value as we can. So it'd be an honor to do that for your listeners, Sabine. 00:29:02 Sabine: Oh, fantastic. And I'll make sure to have that information in our show notes as well. So if there would be one piece of advice that you would give, not only engineers, but just in general, maybe a quote or something like that, what would that be? 00:29:20 Zach: The thing that will stand between you and your dreams is fear. And so we need to step out of our comfort zone, have the courage to face those fears, and take action in your life. So if there's one thing I could tell you, it's crush comfort and create courage because the life of your dreams will not be found in your comfort zone. And the sooner you embrace that and start living out at the edges of what's possible for you, the faster you're gonna see your life increase in ways you could not even imagine. So crush comfort and create courage, that's a decision you'll never regret. 00:30:00 Sabine: Thank you so much. That was just a perfect ending for this podcast, and I wish you all the best and I look forward, having another conversation. 00:30:11 Zach: Thank you so much, Sabine. You're amazing. I appreciate the invitation and blessings to you and your amazing audience. It's been a pleasure. 00:30:18 Sabine: That was my interview. And if you enjoyed it, give us a five star review, leave a comment, and share it with your friends. Thanks for listening. Until I see you again. Always remember, serve from the heart, follow your passion, and live the life you imagine.

Zach sits down with activist Tema Okun, author of "The Emperor Has No Clothes: Teaching About Race And Racism To People Who Don't Want To Know," to have a chat geared around white supremacy culture at work. She and Zach take a deep dive into a piece she wrote on the subject, dissecting several of the named characteristics present in the document. Check out the show notes to reference the piece and to find out more about her work!Connect with Tema on Twitter.Read her "White Supremacy Culture" piece by clicking here.Interested in her book, "The Emperor Has No Clothes?" Check it out on Amazon.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and, you know, we continue to live in really extraordinary times for some people. Frankly, these times have been this way for a while for many of us, but we have this, like, seemingly [?] to awareness and consciousness, and so I want to respect that. I want to respect where we are. And, you know, we've actually shifted up our interview schedule, and we're having more and more pointed conversations about the reality of white supremacy. So you've probably noticed a few episodes, and we're gonna continue to do that. You know, I shared on Twitter a couple days ago that, like, I think my baseline is just much angrier these days, and I'm at peace with that. And so with that all being said, you know, we have conversations on Living Corporate that center marginalized voices at work. We do that by engaging thought leaders from across the spectrum to really have just authentic discussions. Today we have a phenomenal guest, just like we do every single week, but it makes no less true that we have a great guest today, Dr. Tema Okun. Tema has spent many years working for the social justice community. For over 10 of those years she worked in partnership with the late and beloved Kenneth Jones as part of the Change [?] Training Group and now facilitates long-term anti-racism, anti-oppression work as a member of The DR Works Collaborative. She is a skilled [?] facilitator, bringing both an anti-racist lens and commitment to supporting personal growth and development within the context of institutional and community mission. She holds a BA from Oberland College, a Masters in Adult Education from NC State University, a doctorate at NC Greensboro, and is on the faculty of the educational leadership department at the National Louis University in Chicago. She is active in Middle East peace and justice work with Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions USA. Dr. Okun, how are you?Tema: I'm great, and I want to apologize upfront because some of those biographical facts are no longer true. I left the faculty of NLU several years ago, and I'm now active with the Jewish [Voice?] for Peace. Just to update everybody so that they don't think you or I are lying about [?].Zach: Thank you for correcting me, I appreciate that. So, you know, you've been in this work for quite a while. Like, we talked some months ago actually before my daughter was born, and--Tema: Oh, you have a beautiful daughter.Zach: Thank you very much. Yes, yes, you've seen her. Yeah, she looks great, and she's getting bigger every day. It's just so cool that she's changing all the time. What I'd like to know though is if you've ever seen anti-racist, anti-state-sanctioned violence protests like this in your lifetime in terms of just scale and scope?Tema: You know, you gave me that question ahead of time, and I want to say both yes and no, and I want to say yes because [?] during the Vietnam War protest time period and I lived during the AIDS protest time and the growth of the LGBTQ movement, and I do want to acknowledge that the grief and rage and resistance that we're seeing today is part of a longer legacy of people who have been full of grief and rage and resistance before us so that we don't isolate ourselves and we also take credit for this particular moment, which is unique in the sense of the reach, the brilliance, the clarity about the demands, and I'm very excited about, you know, the defund the police direction that this is taking, and so it's a yes and no answer. I'm so excited to be alive in this moment, and I feel like I was honored to live through those other moments as well.Zach: And, you know, it's interesting because it's easy to kind of forget about the history of protest or the history of, like, anti-racism work, and so then, like, things kind of come in cycles, and so, you know, new voices come up in new generations and it's almost as if these conversations have never been had before, but, like, I'd like to get your perspective on really, like, just these concepts, the concept of whiteness and then also, like, the concept of anti-racism. And I know those are big questions. I'ma give you space, but I'd love just to hear you talk about that.Tema: Well, I think part of what's really unique about this moment is that these concepts are more broadly understood within the resistance movement that we're seeing now than they ever have been in my lifetime, so that part is definitely true. When I started doing this work a gazillion years ago, [?] years ago or so, you know, a lot of people--there was not what I would call... I don't want to use the word sophisticated, so the deep understanding about what whiteness is, how white supremacy operates, how white supremacy is the culture that we're swimming in, how it informs who we are although it doesn't define who we are. There was not that clarity, and I feel like I've been a part of the generation of people who helped think about, develop, and--and I'm not taking credit for it. I mean, I'm part of the wave of people who sort of understood that it was important to ground us in understanding that, understanding the ways that white supremacy, capitalism, patriarchy, all of these symptoms of oppression have really shaped who we are, and we need to understand how they operate if we're gonna do something different and have a different vision. So what I'll say is I think--and this might be one of the questions you're gonna ask later, but I think that the thing that we need to be careful about is that white supremacy and capitalism and patriarchy are very, very ingenious, and what we've seen happen in every movement that has ever occurred historically in our country is that they get diverted from a justice focus to an access focus and that capitalism and white supremacy know how to lure us just enough to say, "We're gonna let you have power of a certain extent in our institution. We're going to let you have access. We're going to say good things about you. But don't rock the boat too much." Leaders going, "Defund the police? It's too vague. You don't have a plan." You know, when we talk about access to healthcare, people don't demand [?]. It's like, "Yes, we have a vision. We have a vision of communities where the billions of dollars that are spent on militarized police are spent on schools and community centers and making sure people have enough food to eat." That's the vision that we have [?] defund the police, and that's what we're gonna do and not get distracted by--so part of the backlash is gonna be fierce and hateful and violent, but the more dangerous part of the backlash is gonna be accomodation.Zach: It's interesting, to your point around, like, respectability, right, and so how people, like, use the concept of civility, like, as a cudgel, right, to really stymie progression. You know, we had Dr. Robin DiAngelo on Living Corporate a few months ago, and we talked about her work in studying white fragility, and, you know, and--and, not but... not but, but I've listened to perspectives on how white fragility is not necessarily, you know, anti-racist work. Can you share your perspective on that?Tema: Sure. One of the dangers of our movement--and, you know, I love our movement, and I love many things about it. One of the dangers of our movement though is that we can get really [?] about what being in the movement or what activism is, and so my feeling is--so I'm 68 years old. I've been around a long time, and [?] point in my life is that we need it all. We need it all. This is not a competition about, you know, who's doing it right and who's doing it best and where the focus needs to be. So our frame, the way--The DR Works Collaborative has also been closed for about three or four years. All of our materials are on our website, which we can share the address later, but what we--our frame is that typically racism shows up on three levels, on the personal level, the ways that we are with each other and ourselves, on the cultura level, the beliefs and values and standards and norms of the groups of people that we're operating within, including sort of white supremacy culture overall, and then our institutional policies and procedures and practices, and one of our racial equity principles is that you have to work on all three levels. And so what I hear Robin saying, and I think it's really important, is that those of us are white who work pretty consistently on our conditioning, [?] the invitation that we are extended to join whiteness and, in joining whiteness, to both disconnect from people of color, disconnect from other white people and disconnect from ourselves, because that's what the invitation is. An example of white fragility is if you are angry, if you are in full grief about what's happening and my fragility says, "Well, you need to tone it down, because I can only accept your [?] if it comes to me in a certain kind of package," then I'm completely disconnected. I'm disconnected from you, and I'm disconnected from myself because I'm not allowing myself to feel my own grief and rage, right, because I'm so scared of yours I'm certainly not gonna feel my own. So I think what you're speaking to, you know, there's a thing that people say about white people and navelgazing and that we just like to navel gaze, and what I like to--you know, we like to agonize, and Maurice Mitchell talks about how his liberation or the liberation of black people, of people of color, is not tied up with my anxiety as a white person about getting it right. So I think that there's this balance between [?] our personal work, because all of us have invitations extended to us by white supremacy in some form or another. So all of us doing work on our internalized self and then continuing to be in the world and relationships and figuring out what our role in this resistance movement is. So it's not an either or. It's very much to me a both and, because if we don't do our personal work, then the way that we're gonna show up is just gonna replicate all of the [BLEEP] dynamics and clinging to power [?] and not understanding who we're accountable to and posturing and, you know, just things that aren't helpful, and fear of our fear and all of those things. I think it's a both and, right?Zach: I appreciate that, and I agree, right? I think one, white fragility is just so real, and it creates so many barriers and, frankly, causes so much harm in ways that we don't even consider, like, literally every single day, and because white supremacy is such a reality, white fragility impacts behavior of black and brown folks even when white people aren't around. So to make sure that those who are in power are examining and interrogating themselves, like, that's critical. That doesn't mean it's the only thing, but it's important to do.Tema: Yes. I think that living in white skin in a white supremacy culture obviously confers power and privilege, but not to everyone, and not in the same way, right? And so I think that it's really important, for me--'cause I'm speaking for myself--to understand how many white people are caught up in the same crapola of white supremacy and the ways that racism targets people of color, are caught up in that without [?] seeing it clearly. And I'm not saying that racism targets white people, I'm saying white people who are working class and poor or white people who have had no opportunity to understand how whiteness operates are swimming around in ways that are completely not in their self-interest, and, you know, are continually encouraged, for example, to look to middle class wealthy white people as their community when in fact their community are other people in the same economic and social situation that they're in. So, you know, I'd like to make sure we understand how many white people are hoodwinked by this whole thing as well and invited to participate in ways that make no sense [?].Zach: I think that's a really good point. One piece of literature that has really gotten, frankly, over the years consistent attention, but at this time it continues to get attention, is "White Supremacy Culture." It's something that you wrote, and we'll put the link in the show notes for everybody, but we're gonna walk through this research, this document. But before we do that, can you talk to us a little bit about how you arrived at the points that you made within the work that you wrote?Tema: Sure. So I've only written one book, and it's called "The Emperor Has No Clothes: Teaching About Race and Racism to People Who Don't Want to Know," and it basically was a chance for me to sit down and write all the things I and other colleagues have learned about teaching about race and racism to people. So that's what that book is, and White Supremacy Culture was written before the book, and I wrote it in either [?] or [?], so a long time ago. Kenneth and I were doing a lot of work on the West Coast, and I had just come from a People's Institute for Survival and Beyond workshop with Ron Chisholm and Daniel Buford and probably a few other people, and The People's Institute is based in New Orleans and is sort of, in my view, the grand daddy of people doing anti-racist education and training in my lifetime and so were our mentors and, you know, people that were doing the work that we were doing, so I was full of their wisdom when I wrote the piece, and I also had--and I can't remember the meaning, but I had just come from a meeting of predominantly white people where pretty much every dynamic in that sheet of paper, in that article, showed up, and I was frustrated beyond belief, and people say this, and this is my only experience of this phenomena, which is that "it wrote itself." Like, I didn't--I sat down at the computer and it wrote itself. Just sort of "This behavior, this behavior, this behavior, this behavior." It was like I was in a fury, and then I showed it to my mentor [?] Martinez, who was running a challenging white supremacy workshop at the time in the Bay Area, and she said, "You can't just list the terrible behaviors. You have to list antidotes. You have to talk about what to do," and so that was such good advice, and so I added those into it, and I will say--so it was written a long time ago. It was written without a class lens, which it needs, and it [?] things out, and it didn't--so I'm actually, in this moment, my project is creating a website rather than another article, but rather a website based on the article so that it can be more flexible. Lots of people have used it and adapted, and all the ways that people have used it and adapted it I'm gonna add a class lens, tell some stories, give examples. So that's my current project.Zach: Can we talk about, like--because in this document you essentially have these different characteristics. I'd like to walk through the characteristics that you list and then really just have you talk about each of them, because again, there are a lot of people that I respect, and I'm gonna shout-out Dr. Oni Blackstock because she's one of the most recent people who I saw tweeting about this and talking about this, but it's all over YouTube. Like, I don't know if you know this, but I just saw a video where somebody put this document up on a video and then, like, slow-scrolled it and talked about it, but I caught myself reading it and I said, "This is exactly like every work culture I've ever been a part of." So let's do this. Let's do each characteristic, and then you just kind of explain, you know, how these attitudes and behavior, you know, reinforce or drive white supremacy at work. Can we do that?Tema: Sure.Zach: So you start off with perfectionism. That's your first one.Tema: Mm-hmm. I started with that one I think probably because that's the one I'm the most guilty of myself. So, you know, I talk about how white supremacy culture is--the purpose of white supremacy is to disconnect us from each other [?] so that a few people can exert their control, cultural control, in ways that allow them to profit at our expense, and so perfectionism is this [idea?], it's very connected to professionalism, and it's this idea that there is a perfect way to do something, which is completely nonsense, and that there's somebody or some group of people who can determine what that is and encourage you to aspire to it. And then we internalize that, and I don't think I know a single person who actually feels completely comfortable with who they are and how they show up and how they're doing things, because the culture is so [?] I feel like we're continually falling short, and if we're continually falling short, then we have to buy products to make ourselves look better and feel better, and it's just a vicious cycle. And another thing I'll say about this list is that these things aren't just used to perpetuate racism and white supremacy and to target people of color in different ways at different times. They impact everybody, and they're toxic. There's nothing good about them at all at any time unless you're the one trying to control other people, and then you're so disconnected from yourself it's not even--Trump is a very good example of someone who's completely disconnected from anything. So I think that perfectionism is used as a tool of professionalism and as a tool to keep people from positions of power and also to keep people off balance about who they are and their worth and their value.Zach: You know, it's interesting. One of the things you say in here is, "Little appreciation expressed among people for the work that others are doing, appreciation that is expressed usually directed to those who get most of the credit anyway."Tema: Mm-hmm, yeah, exactly. And then the way that we internalize that, even when we're fighting hard not to. You know, I was talking to a friend yesterday who was applying for a position at a foundation. It's completely, completely clear to me, and I think to her, that she is not only qualified for the job, she is over-qualified for the job, and my guess is they won't hire her because it's clear to them too, you know? And it's so pernicious, the way that that works, where a lot of white people here who are not called to account for our lack of understanding about how racism and white supremacy works because it's not ever part of our job qualifications. No one is evaluating us based on our ability to understand how that works, and we're about to invite somebody in who does understand, and that makes us really uncomfortable, so maybe [?] somebody who's gonna not make us feel uncomfortable all the time. That's part of how that works.Zach: And so it's interesting. So I was about to move to sense of urgency, but to your point, in the recommended antidotes for racism you have "develop a culture of appreciation where the organization takes time to make sure the people's work and efforts are appreciated. Develop a learning organization where it's expected that everyone will make mistakes and those mistakes offer an opportunity for learning." It's interesting, even in organizations where they'll say things like, "Oh, it's okay to make mistakes," I've noticed that--and this is a common experience for most black folks at work, black and brown people to be clear, we don't have the same grace to make mistakes. It's interesting because--and I've had this conversation already with a colleague, but there was a time at work I put a PowerPoint together, and one I just think PowerPoints overall have to be one of the biggest examples of, like, subjectivity to the max, because what you think is a good PowerPoint or nice design I may genuinely think is abhorrent. I may really not like the design of your PowerPoint, right? Like, I might hate it. But anyway, I did a PowerPoint. Someone didn't like it, and so then that PowerPoint and then me, in their eyes, not doing well on a PowerPoint, was then a justification for me to blocked from [a multitude] of opportunities in very public ways, right? And so it's like, what does it look like to really create objective, safe, equitable spaces for everybody?Tema: Right. And what does it look like for that particular person to admit to themselves that they may not have the corner on how something needs to be done? I mean, I remember--each one of these, there's so much that's also interconnected, and two things come to mind. I remember Kenneth--so Kenneth was my mentor and my colleague for 12 years, and he died way too early in 2004, but as we were working together I remembered saying to him... 'cause my style, we were both about the same age, and my [?] style is sometimes to say or admit I've made a mistake or to show some vulnerability, and I said to Kenneth, "You never do that, you never show any vulnerability." "Tema, I can't afford to do that. People are watching me, waiting for me to make a mistake. So even if I make one, I'm not gonna say that I did because people are ready to pounce all over me for it." You know, and again, just another example of how long it took me to learn that, he had to sort of say that out loud to me [?]. So yeah, I think there's that part of it, and I had another thought, but I'm sure it will come to me as we keep talking. So here's the other story, which was that I seemed to be the details-oriented person, and sometimes I'd get really frustrated because I felt like he wasn't paying attention to, like, air fare or flights or when we had to be somewhere, and so I started to develop a little bit of an attitude about how I was doing so much more than he was, more important [?], and we were having a discussion and he said something to me like, "I talked to So-and-so the other day," and I said, "So-and-so? They were in our training a year ago," and he went, "Yeah, yeah." I said, "You're talking to them now?" "Oh, yeah, yeah," and then he proceeded to tell me that he was fostering relationships with most people in almost all the trainings over time and that that's what he did, and it just was such a lightbulb moment for me. I'm like, "Oh, my God. This man," who was a brilliant trainer, there was no question about that, "is leading and offering things that I've never even dreamt of being able to lead or offer that makes such a difference in this work, while I'm sitting here feeling all superior because I know how to schedule a plane flight." It was just like... so many of us, and so many white people in particular, but so many of us are walking around thinking that we know how things should work when we don't know at all, [?] open to how other ways of doing might actually offer so much more. So yeah.Zach: I appreciate that, and that resonates with me too because I think about, especially if you have, like, these majority white organizations, you know, again, people attract, or they're attracted, to people that are like them, right? And that's not just in appearance, but also in, like, ways of thinking and doing, and so, like, if you're in this space, the majority are really good at tasks or really good at [?] things off a box, if there's someone who can do those things but that's just not their wiring, then that person's automatically seen as a problem or as inferior in some way. In reality it's like, "Okay, I don't need--there's eight of y'all who tick off boxes and who are very, like, transactional. Is it possible for me to be different and at the same time be just as good if not add more value than you do perhaps?" I think, for me transparently, one of the biggest mistakes I think I've made in my career is that I think I've been too transparent and vulnerable about me wanting to learn and grow, 'cause I say "Hey, I'd like to learn this. I don't know this," but I've learned, in the spirit of perfectionism, when you communicate that you don't know something or you're new to something, I've just learned that we don't know, black and marginalized people, just don't have the grace to communicate that they don't know. They don't have the grace to grow. They just don't.Tema: Yeah, and it's infuriating. It's completely infuriating, and it's a complete loss. I think the thing that I would like to get across with my audience, my commitment to working with other white people, is for those of us listening to this to understand the deep violence in that, you know? In working side-by-side with people who feel like they are not allowed to offer their vulnerability or their desire to grow and learn because--my God, it's intense.Zach: So you have a lot of terms here, and you know, we might have to do a part two, but I want to see how many of these we can get through so I'm gonna back up and let you talk more. Sense of urgency.Tema: I think that, again, the point of urgency--so every organization I've ever worked with operates with a huge sense of urgency and everything is so critically important right this minute, and it completely perpetuates racism because--the example I'll give is we were doing work with an organization of mostly lawyers that do very good work on a state-wide level, and they had just sort of unpacked all the ways in which [?] of color on the staff and in the community that they served were not feeling heard, were not included in decision making, their ideas were shut down, sort of what we were just talking about, and then an emergency came up, and I think there might have been an arrest, but something urgent happened within the community, and the white leadership, the white lawyers, felt like they had to respond right this minute and if they didn't the organization would be at stake, and right in front of our eyes all of the dynamics were playing out in front of us, and the two of us who were facilitating the workshop tried to suggest to them, "This is happening right in front of our eyes. We know that this is urgent, and we suggest that you sit down and you take a breath and you understand there are other people in the community who are handling it in this moment and that what you all need to do is really sit and take a breath and see how you can approach this differently," and so they just repeated the--you know, you could see it. The white people were circled around, making all these decisions, and the people of color were [?] them on the outside, trying to listen in and then getting disgusted and walking away, and it was just--when things are urgent, if we're not paying attention and we haven't set up the relationships and we haven't set up the procedures to say when things get literally urgent this is what we're gonna do, when things feel urgent but they aren't this is what we're gonna do. Is this really as urgent as we think it is? Because it's urgent we need to take a breath, we need to take a breath and make sure that we're all in this together rather than walking all over each other in our attempt to prove something, which is to prove that, like, we're the organization that's gonna respond like that, even if the way that we respond, you know, tramples over people. And then I think a lot of us internalize urgency. A lot of white people feel like, "If we don't act right now, if I don't fix this right now, then I'm not gonna be able to prove that I'm a good white person," so then we go in and fix something and we make it worse because we haven't stopped to take a breath to consult with other people, to see if our intuition, our impulse is actually the right one. I've seen that happen over and over and over again.Zach: Let's talk about quantity over quality.Tema: Well, you know, we live in a capitalistic society, and we love to measure things, and we love to believe that value has to do with amounts of things, usually money. And again, so I see some of the [thunder patterns?], all of the thunder patterns that I've seen in my lifetime and work, is thunders trying to get people to prove that they're effective by the numbers of things. "How many people did you impact?" Not the quality of things, not the depth of things, not the sustainability of things but, you know, the number of things, which is such a limited measure of how we're doing, and the research I've done on culture shift shows that it's actually not a numbers game. We don't need a majority of people to shift culture. We need deep relationships, we need generational change, we need clusters of people coming to new beliefs simultaneously, but they don't have to be a majority. So I just think it's good to be able to have a sense of what we think progress is, but often we aim towards--I do a lot of work in schools, and the story I often tell--so I'm sorry if anyone's heard this before--is how our schools often, if not always, have a story that what they're trying to do is prepare students for success, and what they mean by that is "We want students to stay in school, get good grades, graduate, get a job, and go shopping, and if we can measure that we've done that it doesn't matter if our students are leading meaningful lives. We're not measuring that. We're not measuring if students know how to find themselves. We're not measuring if students have gotten in touch with their spiritual side or their artistic side. We're not measuring whether students know how to be in a relationship with themselves and with each other. We're not measuring the things that matter, you know? We just don't know how to measure those things. We're obsessed with graduation rates and, you know, how much money people are making.Zach: You have another one here about worship of the written word.Tema: Mm-hmm. So I'll give an example if you'll give an example, but this is our history, sort of the theft of indigenous land, the theft of land from Mexico, the broken treaties, the enslavement of people, it's all built on worship of the written word and the whole, you know, all of our Southwest and Midwest states that became US property after the Mexican-American War and the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, all of that theft of land was made possible because Congress passed all kinds of legislation requiring people to [?], and most people lived in a culture where that's not how people [?] that they owned land. So that's just one example, and just the ways that we hide behind "If it's not written down, then it doesn't exist." "It's only wisdom if it's written down," and then only if it's written down by certain people. What comes to mind for you?Zach: So here's where I found the application interesting. So there's a way that I believe those in power and in the majority will essentially place the burden on the oppressed to have evidence, like, tangible, documented evidence, but then in the instances where that evidence is undeniable, then at best it simply just saves that oppressed person from being harmed, but it doesn't necessarily guarantee justice for that oppressed person.Tema: Yeah, or they'll say it's not written right or the form was not filled out correctly or--Zach: Right, or "We still don't have all the facts," or "What about the other person's side?" And so there's still this--it's such a jig, because you're gonna lose, but the question is "While this may have saved you from getting fired, it's not actually going to absolve your name completely after all. These other people said something." Right?Tema: I think about when Bhagat Singh Thind sued the Supreme Court for citizenship, and he was from India, and he was suing based on how science classified people from India as Caucasoids, and the year before a Japanese person who had done the same thing lost the case because people from Japan were classified as mongoloids, so they were not white, but the Supreme Court said, "Well, it's true science classifies you as Caucasoids, but you're not seen as white by the common white man, therefore you're not white." So it's the written word, but also the word is, as you said, controlled and considered by those in power, and whose written words will be paid attention to and whose won't?Zach: Yeah. I think about Breonna Taylor. We know that she was murdered by the state in her own bed, but then when you go back and you look at the report it's completely blank, right? And so, like, anybody with good sense should be able to understand that Breonna Taylor's bullet-ridden body and that piece of paper are not congruent. So one of those [?] is lying. Breonna's own blood testifies that she is not lying, so why are Breonna Taylor's murderers still free? It's the worship of the written word.Tema: Yeah. Sandra Bland, all of that, yeah.Zach: Yeah, Sandra Bland as well, right? And countless others. Tony McDade. And it's frustrating, but I think about that. I think about how manipulative and--you used the word pernicious, it's a really appropriate word in that, you know, documentation really matters until it doesn't. I always tell marginalized people to document everything, because again, while documentation might not ever hold any accountable, it at the very least can make sure that you don't get fired, or it can delay you getting fired because you have something, hard evidence, that if someone says something, you're like, "Well, what you're saying is clearly not true." Okay, so paternalism was another characteristic that you had in your research.Tema: Yeah. I'm gonna bow here to a man named Paul Kibble, who does a lot of writing on Christian hegemony. It's just the way in which--and so many of these intersect, and I'm adding one called "qualified." I don't know if that's on the list explicitly there, but it's the way in which white people assume that, because we're white, we are qualified to act and make decisions that are outside our lived experience, and I think about--when I taught it, when I wasn't on the faculty in educational leadership, when I taught undergraduate students in education, you know, most of them are young, white women who were coming into teaching because they loved to--and please know I admire teachers beyond belief because they work so hard for so little, and yet they come in, these young white women come in very idealistic and very hopeful, and they have no experience, most of them, working with people of color and very little preparation for doing that, and yet have not internalized that they're not at all qualified to do the job, and the education system hasn't internalized that either, and so just the ways in which we've got almost every [?] institution is operating out of a sense of paternalism. Like, "We know what's better for you without consulting you or asking you about your lived experience." And I think about doing work with the department of social services where it's about a woman who, in order to make it through her week, had to visit 11 different offices in the Department of Social Services to account for herself, you know? And it's the way in which--if we look at Congress. Banks are completely involved in writing policies having to do with banks. Poor people and working people have no say in policies that impact their lives, and the laws that impact their lives are written by people who think that they need to be punished for being working class and poor or who think that they need to be exploited or, you know, who have absolutely no care or concern or lived experience, for the most part, of what it means to be black, brown, working class poor, and paternalism is just this idea that "We know better than you," and it can be very deeply embedded in religious thinking, in Christian thinking, and [?]--it's just sort of the idea that "We know best. We're going to convert you to our ways," and that's white supremacy is all about. The goal here [?] is "Act like us if we can exploit you more that way." Assimilation, and if not assimilation exploitation and violence, you know? It's just all based on this idea that we know better, and one of the things that we know better is that [class?] is more important than people.Zach: I think that's true. I think it comes down to a lot of power and control. So, you know, one of my larger concerns right now, even as corporations and larger organizations are looking at Black Lives Matter and people are taking these statements and stances, and organizations are mobilizing their employee resource groups and different things to have these conversations and do real talk and all this kind of stuff, and how much of this is about really hearing and including their marginalized employees, and how much of this is about, like, really making sure that you're retooling, reshaping your organization to be equitable and inclusive, or how much of this is really about you just trying to put some gates and borders around this to maintain control, right? That's my biggest concern.Tema: So I think there's two parts to this. So I think there can be conscious paternalism and there can be unconscious paternalism, and probably lots of gray [?] in between, and so I for one completely hate the terms diversity and [?] because I don't think that they--it's about window-dressing or table-dressing or whatever term you want to use. It doesn't ask the question, "What are we including people into?" Because if we were to ask that question, we would have to admit that a lot of what we're inviting people into is toxic. So it's not about including people. It's about reshaping everything, and I think that's what I was talking about in terms of what we need to be wary of, that some of the backlash is going to be very direct and hateful. Now, a lot of it is gonna be about accommodation, and forget about justice, let's just accommodate, accommodate, accommodate. And paternalism really plays a role there, and we can see it reflected in older leaders often, people who have been around a long time, who are scared they're gonna lose power by these young people who are coming up full of fervor and demanding justice, and some of us have accommodated for so long in order to just often survive that we've forgotten what the goal is, and some of the paternalism is--I'll speak for myself--is internalized entitlement, the internalized belief that I'm qualified to do things I'm not qualified to do, and it didn't require any intent on my part. And I tell a story on the website, and it might be in the book I can't remember, of essentially pushing my black colleague aside in an environment where I knew absolutely everything. This was a different colleague, a colleague named Kamayu [sp] [?], an incredible organizer, and he was in [?], the room was packed full of African-American people living in the [?], economically poor, culturally incredibly genius and rich, and, you know, I didn't think he was doing a good job, so I walked up to the front and I pushed him aside, and I didn't know anything about [?] in the [?], right? But I had this instinct in my body that he wasn't doing it and I needed to fix it. It was--so there's that, the way I internalized this paternalism and this idea that I know how to do things. We just cause so much harm, and again, it's a complete tribute to Kamayu that we're still friends. He actually didn't say anything to me for years, and finally I started to think about it and I'm like, "Kamayu, what about that day?" And he went, "Oh, I figured you'd figure it out sooner or later." You know? So there were, like, five years in there where Kamayu was not--I was not in a genuine relationship with him because he was waiting for me to figure it out, you know?Zach: To your example, I think about it in ways that, like--so it's interesting, you have these cultures that are very racist, right? Like, you have these organizations that have harmed black people for a while, but it just so happens that there's a certain confluence of events that are forcing organizations that have been historically harmful to black and brown people, now they're having to do things differently. But what's challenging, what's interesting, is that some of the people who just six months ago were very harmful are now self-appointing themselves as leaders to have these conversations, right? And, like, there's a certain--of course that's emotionally inauthentic, but I think there's also a certain level of entitlement and paternalism in that.Tema: Yeah, totally. And again, I think--so this is my job, it's not your job, but as someone who identifies as white, who is white, who lives a white life and thinks a lot about what it means to be in relationships with other white people, part of [my job?] is to encourage myself and other white people to think about, "What are we doing here?" And what is the cost to you of this posturing, and what would it be like for you to actually authentically sit down with yourself and go, "Okay, what am I afraid of? What kind of help do I need? What are the things I really need to change?" And I think all of us need to develop a much better practice of what I would call radical honesty with ourselves about why we want to live in a world where we actually are able to have authentic relationships with other people and ourselves and live in a world where people are well-cared for and people can thrive and we don't have to be so afraid of [?] and all these other things. So yeah.Zach: So I'ma pick one last one. Fear of open conflict.Tema: Yeah, that goes back to perfectionism and some of the other things that we talked about. The story I'll tell is that--well, it's a common story, which is that some racism is happening, and rather than deal with the racism that's happening we will label or target the person who's naming it, and sometimes that happens to white people too because we're so afraid of the truth-telling that's gonna happen of how racism is happening. So it's just this--we're too afraid to talk about things that are real and are gonna have emotion attached to them and might lead us, as white people, to feel like we've done something wrong or that we may even essentially be bad in some kind of way, so let's not talk about it. Let's blame the person who's trying to make us uncomfortable. This is attached to "right to comfort." Let's blame the people who are calling us in and say that there's something wrong with them so we don't have to feel our feelings, we don't have to be uncomfortable, we don't have to look at ourselves. We can stay in what feels like control, and it's such a--again, it does such harm, to other people and also to ourselves. The ability to sort of say, "Bring it on. Okay, tell me more. Tell me more. That was so racist? Okay, tell me more. I want to know. Tell me more." It's such a different energy. It's opening. Or "You're racist." "No, I'm not." "Yes, you are." "No, I'm not." There's nowhere--it's, like, you're building conflict and you're not--it's like, "So tell me. How am I racist? Yeah, I want to know, because I think I probably am. So tell me." There's so much more fruit there, even if you end up not agreeing with what they say it's like there's more fruit, more juice, more ability to--it's like, "We can handle this. We can sit in this discomfort, and in fact, if we don't learn to do that we're not gonna get anywhere."Zach: But see, I think that in the context of, like, a business, like, the fear with that is that if I admit that I'm racist, if I admit that I've harmed you, then that gives you byway to pursue the company, right? And so there's this fear of creating risk or opening your company up, opening yourself up to risk by admitting your faults, you know?Tema: So people just need to figure out a way to deal with that.Zach: [laughs] I love how you just dismiss that.Tema: Oh, come on. I don't--you know, legalese and laws and policies [?] in service of connection and not in service of fear and abuse, right? It's like Trump saying you can only come to the thing if you're not gonna sue me if you get the coronavirus. Like, no. And I would also say, for me, one of the racial equity principles [?], you'll see this list of characteristics, and you'll also see our racial equity principles, and one of the ones I love the most is called Organizing Mind, and what we mean by that is you start with the chorus. People go, "Oh, you're preaching to the chorus," and I go yes, because our chorus is very out of tune, so let's get in tune, and then we can start preaching to people outside the chorus and bring them into the chorus. So it's, like, start with the people who want you want, and figure out what your power is, figure out the risk that you're willing to take, and from there each one reach one teach one, as Sharon Martinez would say. So in a corporate environment it's, like, figuring out what are the roadblocks that we need to get rid of so we can actually do this, or whwere are we willing to have authentic conversations regardless of the risk and can we start doing that? So figure out what's within your power to do and do it. Don't wait for permission. Don't wait for--you know, there are lots of things that we can do and build our power that way without people giving us permission to do it, as we are witnessing across the country and across the globe, right? All these beautiful people, many young people, not waiting for permission. Bringing down statues, [?], and it's a beautiful thing to see right now.Zach: It's brought me joy, frankly, to see. Dr. Okun, this has been a phenomenal conversation. I just want to thank you so much for being a guest. I want to make sure that everybody knows that the document that we were walking through and that I picked a few characteristics out of for our guest to beautifully expand upon is gonna be in the show notes, and we're going to also be promoting it--you'll see it this week on social media and things of that nature, so make sure that you check it out. This has been Living Corporate. You know, we do this every single week. We're having conversations, real talk in a corporate world, that center and amplify marginalized voices at work. We'll make sure to catch you all next time. In the meantime between now and next time, we're all over Beyonce's internet. You just type in Living Corporate, we'll pop up. Catch us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, and man, if you have anything you want to talk to us about, just contact us through the website, living-corporate.com. Please say the dash--living dash corporate dot com. 'Til next time, y'all, this has been Zach, and you've been listening to Dr. Tema Okun, activist, educator, speaker, organizer. Peace.

Zach has the honor of sitting down to chat with Mary-Frances Winters, the founder and CEO of The Winters Group, Inc., about black equity and power. Mary-Frances shares some of the top things she believes that majority leadership groups are doing today that undermine their own workplace equity efforts and explains her perspective on why chief inclusion/people/culture officers are typically white folks. Check the links in the show notes to find out more about The Winters Group!Connect with Mary-Frances on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Links in order:https://bit.ly/2Bs8pZBhttps://bit.ly/2ZXoMYlhttps://bit.ly/3csD9qbLearn more about The Winters Group on their website. http://bit.ly/33pqotqCheck out the Inclusion Solution blog.https://bit.ly/2yX2quXYou can connect with The Winters Group on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Links in order:http://bit.ly/2WrDjtghttp://bit.ly/3d69LYhhttps://bit.ly/2XUy6t7Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, it's Tuesday. The day of this recording is May 4th, so May the 4th be with you. We have incredible guests every single time we come on, and today is no different, because what we're trying to do is what we always do, right? Which is center and amplify marginalized voices in the workplace. Now, I would like to think Living Corporate is a little bit unique in that we're having these conversations, but not only are we having these conversations that are centering marginalized voices, but we're having these conversations with marginalized identity groups, right? So a lot of times when you think about this diversity, equity and inclusion space, it's folks who don't look like me using fairly esoteric, like, heady language to describe things that they really don't experience, right? Like, not to put too fine a point on it. Just look... I'm just gonna be honest, right? Just gonna be a straight shooter, okay? And I'm proud of the fact that we've been able to have incredible guests that have not only the lived experience but have the practical knowledge and expertise to talk about real subjects, and so that's why our tagline for Living Corporate is real talk for a corporate world. Now, look, some of y'all have been listening to us and been rocking with us for a while, but every episode is somebody's first episode, so I just want to make sure I kind of level set a little bit. So with all that being said, I'm really excited to have our guest today, Mary-Frances Winters. Mary-Frances Winters is the founder and CEO of The Winters Group, Inc., a global organization development and diversity and inclusion consulting firm with over 35 years--count 'em, y'all, 35... more than I've been alive--more than 35 years of experience. She truly believes that diversity and inclusion work is her “passion and calling.” She's been dubbed a thought leader in the field for the past three decades and has impacted over hundreds of organizations and thousands of individuals with her thought-provoking messages, and her approach to diversity and inclusion. Ms. Winters is a master strategist with experience in strategic planning, change management, diversity, organization development, training and facilitation, systems thinking--yo, shout-out to systems thinking--and qualitative and quantitative research methods, and she has extensive experience in working with senior leadership teams to drive organizational change. My goodness, gracious. With all that being said, Mary-Frances, welcome to the show.Mary-Frances: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. You're definitely dating me, but that's all right. I'll take it. [laughing]Zach: I apologize. I wasn't trying to date you. I was trying to speak to the depth and breadth of the work that you've been doing, 'cause I think a lot of times it's easy, you know--like, pausing on, just, like, this conversation, but kind of, like, thinking about generational tensions, right? So I think there's, like, a lot of frustrations sometimes with folks who--like, millennials, you know, folks, like, in their early 30s or even, like, mid-20s to late-20s crowd who just think that, like, all of these frustrations that we're seeing now are new, right, but there have been folks who have built foundations before us that allow us to actually move forward, so it's just incredible that you've been in this space and doing this for a significant amount of time. I don't believe that should be taken lightly at all.Mary-Frances: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. I accept it with honor and respect, so thank you so much.Zach: Thank you so much. So how are you doing during this time? Like I said, we're recording this on May 4th. How are you and your loved ones?Mary-Frances: We're well, we're well. We're doing well. You know, it is unprecedented times. It's very, very difficult times for the world, but, you know, we're doing well, and thank you for asking.Zach: So let's get right into it. Diversity, equity and inclusion work is about marginalized identities, yet the loudest voices in this space tend to be those of the majority, right? So, like, when you think about these big, big organizations and you look at, like, the chief inclusion officer or the chief people officer or the chief culture officer, they're typically white folks. Why do you think that is?Mary-Frances: Well, I don't think that the dominant group sees diversity and inclusion as being about marginalized folks. They see it as being about everybody. "We have to include everybody," and so some of what my frustration has been, as you mentioned, 35 years, and so when we used to talk about it, you know, in the days of affirmative action, they were protected groups, right? So the initiatives were targeted towards those protected groups. When we started to talk about it as being diversity, then it broadened and everybody got included in diversity, and the group that gets least talked about now are black folks, because they don't want to talk about black people. So I don't think that the dominant group that controls the narrative, I don't think that they see it about being about marginalized identities only, right? And so the focus may or may not be there, you know, depending, and so we did a session for a client not too long ago to talk about the relevancy of white men in the organization. So, you know, you've got to be inclusive of white men. [both laughing] Yeah, so that's why I think--you asked me why I think that is? That's why I think that is, yeah. Because in the corporate world, we don't even use the word "marginalized identities." So it's not a new term in sociology, but let me tell you, 35 years in this business, it's a new term in the corporate world. It's starting to be used, and I think it is because of the influence of the millennials. We've been doing some work in some organizations that, you know, normally--some of these older, traditional organizations have been around 150 years and still got baby boomers at the helm, right? Some of these other organizations have been around 15, 20 years, they've got a lot of millennials at the helm. Those organizations are using this language, the social justice language. The traditional organizations? Not so much.Zach: [laughs] So one, thank you. I'm really curious--that really is a good segue into the next question I have for you about just you showing up doing this work as a black woman, and not to, like--again, not to age you, we're talking about the fact that--[Mary-Frances laughs] It's not like you're a black woman who just graduated from college and, you know, you're in this space, or you just finished B school, like, you're someone who has seen this space grow and evolve and change and shift and permutate, you know, various times over over the past three and a half decades, and so I'm curious, like, what does it look like for you to operate in this space, and then specifically going into the example that you just provided, how do you respond to narratives like that? That, you know, white men need to feel just as included as black men or other marginalized groups?Mary-Frances: Yeah. So as a black woman in this work, a cisgender heterosexual black woman, baby boomer, there are different ways it impacts me. So one way that it impacts me is "Oh, yeah, let's get Mary-Frances because she can bring the voice of black folks." Um, no. Mary-Frances brings her voice, not all black folks, right? That's one way. This other way is, "Gee, we really can't hire The Winters Group to do this--" This is a black person talking now. "Because you're black and I'm black, and, you know, the optics of it, it looks like we might be giving you, you know, preferential treatment." The third way is when I stand in front of a group, to the question about, you know, white men, I do--if my question is gonna get across, I do in some ways have to disarm white men, because they're gonna--they see me coming in with my sister locks and, you know, "This black woman is gonna come in and she's gonna tell us, you know, how racist we are. She's gonna make us feel bad," and so what I've learned over the years is that you've gotta get them to like you first. No matter what they've gotta like you, right? And they have to think that the message resonates. So I learned the language. I learned the language of the organization. I connect my message to whatever their business plan is, whatever their business strategy is. You know, I connect it to that, because, you know, you're already coming in being black, being a woman. So those are two, you know, marginalized groups, historically marginalized groups. And so yeah, so there are different ways. And, you know, we talk about code switching, right? So we have to code switch a lot of times in order to get the work done, particularly in corporate spaces. Now, I don't know if you've noticed--well, I'm sure you've noticed because you know my colleague, Brittany J. Harris, who is the vice president of The Winters Group, and we're doing a series right now in our inclusion solution blog on decolonizing DEI work, and, you know, part of that--and I wrote a couple of weeks ago about decolonizing particularly the corporate world with, you know, corporate speak. So you come in and they have to have a business case, and the business case has to be "How does this help my business, you know, perform better?" That's, like, the classic corporate business case, and that's kind of centering this capitalist narrative, right? We're about the profits, and you can [show?] me by hiring black folks and hiring women, whoever else you want me to hire. If you can show me that that can help me to sell more whatever I'm trying to sell, then it's okay. So I think that, you know, to some extent--you know, I was just talking to a very large client just before this--I will not name that client. Very old client, 150, 160 years old, you know, very old. [laughing] You know, middle of the country, and they're just trying to get this stuff off the ground and you come in talking about marginalized groups and whatnot to a bunch of these white men, they're just not gonna--it's just not gonna happen. So it's this delicate balance, Zach, of on one hand, you know, you have to be able to engage the groups that they listen, and on the other hand you're trying to dismantle, you know, this dominant sort of narrative that doesn't necessarily work, and it hasn't worked. 35 years, 36 years, all of the same issues that I was teaching and talking about 36 years ago are the same. As a matter of fact, my book Black Fatigue will be coming out in February. Black Fatigue: How Racism Erodes the Mind, Body, and Spirit comes out in February, and I have a chapter in that book, Chapter 3, called Then is Now, and so I go back and I look at data from whatever point you want to take. You can take it from 1965, 1975, it doesn't really matter what you want to take it. When you look at our data and our statistics, we have not made progress. We're stuck, and we're at this standstill. Brown vs. the Board of Education was 1954, which was desegregate schools. Our schools are more segregated today than then. You know, the Civil Rights Act of 1964. You know, all of this legislation, housing. In 1975, 43% of black people owned their own homes. In 2019, 43% of black people own their own homes. The net worth--and, you know, net worth is, like, what you're worth, right? Net worth. A single black woman's net worth is $500, versus the net worth of a white woman, single white woman, which is [$5000?], still low. The net worth of white people, at 150 something thousand dollars, is 10 times that of a black person, and it follows even if you look at college-educated. So somebody who has a PhD who is a black woman college professor with a PhD makes 20% less than a white man who has a PhD and 7 to 8% less than a woman who has a PhD, and so all of these inequities--and I'm using those just as an example--is about Then is Now, that we haven't really turned the corner. So we're fatigued. [?] And it's particularly tiring for me because, like you said, I've been doing it for over 35 years. [both laughing] I'm tired.Zach: You're absolutely right, and we've had conversations about that on Living Corporate, and we cite the study Umbrellas Don't Make It Rain that really goes into dispelling the myth that higher education will, you know, somehow close the wealth gap, and it hasn't and it doesn't. So let's talk about this. There's a variety of folks that we've had on Living Corporate who have said, you know, diversity and inclusion, corporate diversity and inclusion, is inherently [anti]-black, not just in its external doings but at the internal politics. Do you have any thoughts on the voracity of that position?Mary-Frances: Well, society is inherently anti-black, so by extension the corporate world is inherently anti-black. We live in a society that has historically and continues to be anti-black. I don't know--yeah, so I agree. [both laugh] I mean, right? So yeah, you know, D&I is inherently anti-black. It is because that's the society--you know, when I wrote this book Black Fatigue and I was telling people about this, "Oh, please write about black and brown fatigue and, you know, all deference to indigenous people and native people and Latinos and everybody, right?" But the black experience in the United States has been different than any of those other experiences, and because of that the stereotypes and the marginalization plays out differently, and so I really felt a need--even though [?]--I show statistics for Latinos and Asians, you know, as well in the book, but I really wanted to focus on how this is playing out for black folks, because let me tell you. I say--you know, [?]--race is diversity's four-letter word, and particularly when you talk about black folks, people don't want to talk about it. They don't want to talk about the black and whiteness of it. "Let's talk about Asians. Let's talk about Latinos," right? So this anti-black--so that's one way anti-black plays out. You know, we have to include the other groups that we have [?]. I had a call with a client just on Friday, and they talked about how the psychologist or sociologist, whoever we were quoting--I forgot who it was--was black, and so we were like, "Uh, yeah," and they said, "Well, you know, perhaps we need to get some other experts included in this data set." What's that about? "Are there some Asian people who have spoke on this too?" [laughs] So yeah, I mean, we live in an anti-black world, and by extension our corporations are anti-black. I mean, look at things like the recent legislation around the CROWN Act. Why does anybody freaking care how I wear my hair? Why do we have to have legislation for people to be able to wear their hair--for black people to be able to wear their hair the way they want to wear their hair. You know, the young man wrestler, right, and they made him--Zach: Yes, made him cut his hair. His dreads.Mary-Frances: His dreads, right. Exactly. Right there. You know? I mean, why do you care? You don't have to like--what I say to folks is, "I don't care if you like it. You don't have to like my hair. I'm not asking you to like my hair." [laughing] But, I mean, are we still in a slavery, there's no freedom, that we can't even wear our hair the way we want to wear our hair? You know what, I heard about hair 36 years ago when I was in the corporate world and I had a very short afro, and one day a colleague--wasn't even my boss, a colleague--comes in my office and says, "Will your hair grow?" And I just looked at him and I said, "Yeah," and he said, "Well, you oughta let it," and he walked out of my office.Zach: Wow.Mary-Frances: That's why I left corporate. One of the reasons anyway. But anyway, so yes, is it an anti-black world? Yes, indeed. Indeed, it is. Unfortunately, you know, it is. And when you say that--and the problem is when you say that to white people they think that you're calling them a racist, and I'm not. I'm not. What I'm saying is the very foundation and structure upon which our various societies and the way we think and the policies and all those things are based on anti-black sentiments, anti-black beliefs if you will. Zach: You know, I'm really curious about, like--because you're right, we had Brittany Harris on the show some time ago, and we were talking about decolonization and dismantling and deconstructing systems, right? So it was more so about, like, kind of, like, trying to make some shifts and some headway in this work, because like you said, there's a lot of conversations that have just been happening, they've been recycling for years, and I'm curious to know, what are you seeing some other, like, DEI groups or, like, kind of names, things that they're saying that you're like, "Man, we've been doing that." Like, "We've been working on that," or "That's not new. Like, y'all think it's new, but it's not new." Like, does anything like that stick out to you?Mary-Frances: Yeah, I think that, you know, the whole idea of, you know, oppression, marginalization, privilege, all of those kinds of things I think have been out there for--you know, for a long time. You know, we can all remember--those of us in this work--Peggy McIntosh's White Privilege. Judith Katz, my colleague, did something on heterosexual privilege back in the '90s, and the Peggy McIntosh book was back in the '70s. You know, Brown Eyes, Blue Eyes, which shows, you know, bias. We now call it unconscious bias, but Jane Elliott, you know, put that out in, I don't know, the '70s, '60s or '70s. I was using that video--now that you've already dated me I'll just keep going with it--but I was using that video [laughing]--Zach: I'm so sorry. [laughing]Mary-Frances: No, no, no. You're fine, I'm just teasing you. [laughing] You know, I was using that video in the '80s, right? And now I hear people like, "Oh, do you know about Jane Elliott's video Brown Eyes, Blue Eyes?" And that's the other thing, [?] why I wrote Black Fatigue is because--and I'm not saying this is about millennials. This is not about generations at all thinking this stuff is new. This is about folks who are, like, in my age group to who this is all, like, a revelation, right? "We didn't know." So here, case in point. We know that COVID-19 is disproportionately impacting particularly black people, and when it came out, this proportionality, it was like, "Oh, wow, we have health disparities?" This is not new. I mean, these health disparities have been--they have been well-researched, well-written about, and they continue. They have not improved. Even middle-class black women are twice as likely to die in childbirth. You know, these are not new, and so that's what's part of, you know, the frustrating thing. You know, I really respect some of the newer folks who are coming into this space, and I think that they're doing remarkable work, and I'm hoping that perhaps they can put a different spin--I know Brittany, as a millennial, has brought definitely a different spin to our work. When Brittany came on board, which was, like, four years ago now I guess, we had started to talk about the intersection of social justice and corporate speak, because, you know, the language was all different, right? Everything was different. So we talk about mapping the intersection. What is the intersection of social justice and corporations? So corporations worried about the bottom line. Why should they be worried about, you know, social justice as well, and how do we get that languge? So I think at The Winters Group we're a little bit further ahead of mapping that intersection of saying that it's not one or the other. It really is a both and, because if you help to alleviate the social ills of this world or even of this country or even of the place that you operate your business, your business is going to be better.Zach: No, I'm right there with you, and I really think that segues well into this next question, which is just, you know, what trends do you see in this work from a thought leadership perspective, and if you were to kind of look across the landscape of this work and when you think about workplace equity as a whole, you know, where are the biggest places you think we have to grow?Mary-Frances: So where I see that we have places to grow in this work is fixing organizational cultures so that they truly are inclusive and we're not just using the word, that we're not just saying that we're inclusive, because the surveys that we do inside corporations would suggest that the cultures are not inclusive, particularly--PARTICULARLY--for black folks. Particularly. Now, when we do surveys with Latinos and Asians, culturally they may not be having a good experience, but they're not gonna tell us that because culturally they don't talk ill of--and I'm stereotyping, I know I'm stereotyping big time right now, but for the most part Latinos and Asians don't speak ill of their employers. That's a cultural thing, right? And so they're gonna say, you know, everything is good. We, you know, coming from a history of descension, a history of sort of laying it out there. You know, "No justice, no peace." Zach: Give us us free, yes.Mary-Frances: Yeah, right. We're willing to say, "No, this is not a good experience," if we answer the survey. We did a big survey for a corporation recently, and not many black people answered the survey. So then I did a focus group with them and they said, "Oh, no, we're not answering that survey. They can figure out who we are because there's only about 100 of us in the whole company." So the point is that organizational cultures, the traditional organizational cultures, are designed for dominant groups. They always have been. In the '70s when I was in the corporate world, they decided to bring in a whole bunch of black people, a whole bunch of black professionals, because they didn't have enough, and they just said, "Let's bring 'em all in here." Within a year, every single one of them were gone except one. There was probably about 30 people. Every single one of them left because the culture was not friendly, was not conducive. There were micro-aggressions all day long. [?] I told you about the micro-aggression about my hair. Here's another one. So the company sent me to some banquet or something, and I was sitting there--and I got to represent the company, so I was sitting at the head table, and we had a little fruit cup, you know, as our appetizer or something, and so the person sitting next to me said, "Oh, look at that, you have more watermelon in your fruit cup than anybody at the table." Now, why would you even say that? What would even make you part your lips to speak like that? Yeah. So you know what I did? I said, "Oh, you like watermelon? Would you like mine? I'll trade with you." [both laughing] So my point is that hasn't changed in 30 however many ever years that is. That hasn't changed. And so, you know, where we still need to grow is to really get at the culture, and the only way we're gonna get at the culture is to hold people accountable, and because the experience that people have in their organizations are 1:1 with their direct manager, right, and so if the direct manager is not talking the talk, walking the walk, it's not happening for that person. We often times focus on the top leadership, top of the house--"Let's start at the top of the house." I say that we need to focus on first-line leadership, those individuals who are most likely to have the greatest span of control. First-line leaders have more reports than the CEO. The CEO probably has six or seven direct reports, right? All the senior vice presidents, and then it goes down from there. So the biggest span of control and the biggest opportunity for change is at that first level, and we often times don't work with that first level of leadership because they don't have the budget for it or, you know, all of these other excuses. So I really think--and I've been saying this for years, so I don't know if this is a trend or not, but I've been saying this for years, that we have to get to that level. The other places that we still need to grow is pay inequity. You know, pay inequity for women and, you know, women of color in that equation too. That's an easy fix. You look at your data and you see who--if you have a disparity with women not being paid the same amount, then you fix it. You see, this is why if organizations wanted to do it, they could. Any aspect of diversity. If they wanted to do it, they would absolutely do it. So those are areas, I mean, in just terms of very tactical places, in terms of--cultures are really, really hard to change. So I had a call with a client this morning, and they had a question on the survey--they wanted me to review their survey. We have our own survey, but they got somebody else to do their survey, but they wanted me to review the questions. Here's one of the questions. "I fit in well at this organization."Zach: Hm, that's a good question.Mary-Frances: Huh? No, that's a bad question.Zach: Talk to me. Educate me why it's a bad question.Mary-Frances: Okay. Because it's about fitting in. Fitting in is about assimilation. Fitting in is about "I fit in," meaning that--Zach: I'm adjusting myself.Mary-Frances: I'm adjusting myself. I fit in, right? I mean, you still may get at it, but the whole idea of--even putting the language out there. So that's, you know, colonizing language, "fit," you know? Because what do we say when we hire somebody? We say, "Oh, yeah, they'd be a really good fit," and what "a really good fit" means is what? "They're like us."Zach: It's interesting, because the reason I was saying it's a good question is because I know a lot of--I know for me I would be like, "No."Mary-Frances: Right, exactly, and that's what they're hoping to get, but you see how the message could be from the other side, that you need to fit in.Zach: It absolves the organization of responsibility and onus in creating an inclusive work environment for that person.Mary-Frances: Exactly. So I said, "Why don't you have the question "I feel included at this organization?"" Right? I mean, you're gonna get the same answer, right, but you're now using language that is language that's about inclusion rather than fitting in, because fitting in is basically saying, you know, "Yeah, we need you to fit in. We need you to be like us." Zach: Okay, okay. Let's talk about black male presenting identities in this space, right? I could be speaking selfishly, but it seems as if they're still not highlighted with the same level of attention or nuance of some other people groups. Am I being fair? And, you know, if you agree with that, then could you kind of talk to me about why you think that may be?Mary-Frances: Yeah. So, you know, this is so interesting, because the chapter in Black Fatigue, it's called I Can't Breathe: Black Men's Fatigue, and I also have a chapter in the book called Say My Name: Black Women's Fatigue. So for the black women's chapter it's almost, like, twice as long as the black man's chapter, right? And I'm like, "Wait a minute." I said, "Is it because I'm a black woman and, you know, I relate to the experiences more?" So yes, and I'll tell you--this is the absolute truth. I am not kidding. I have been wrestling with this all weekend because I want to modify the chapter on black men to bring more of that voice. So with black women I could talk about, you know, #BlackGirlMagic, right? You know, what's the analogous movement for black men?Zach: There's nothing that big. I would say, you know, you have Black Boy Joy, but it's not as big, and there's some tension in that because a lot of black men are like, "Well, I'm not a boy. Don't call me a child. I'm a man." You know? So I'm not sure. That's a good question.Mary-Frances: So I write in the book about two experiences, two stories I tell. One story is about somebody who actually now--he has a degree in human resources, but he prefers to work with his hands, and he comes over and he tunes up our air conditioning in the spring and changes the filters and all that kind of stuff. So he was over the other day, and he worked for a large heating and air conditioning organization and was doing really well. They had him in their commercials on TV and everything and, you know, he said he just couldn't take it anymore. We would talk about entrepreneurship while he was still working there, 'cause he knew I was an entrepreneur and everything. So he finally left, and he's been on his own for 18 months, and he works 14, 16 hours a day. Nicest guy in the world. Got a young family, you know? Just really very customer service-oriented. He said, "Yeah, you know, when I go knocking on the doors, I've got to know how I'm coming," he said, "Because when they see that I'm black, you know, they get a little afraid." Ryan is all of 5'6" and, you know, maybe 150 pounds. He's a slightly built man. Zach: Slight guy, yeah.Mary-Frances: So he said, you know, "Why is this? Why do I have to exist like this, where, you know, I'm just trying to live and I'm just trying to, you know, run a business?" And he ran into--while he was in the corporate world, they told him one time that he couldn't get promoted because he was so good at his job that they needed him to stay in that job. That's why he couldn't be promoted, 'cause he was so good. [both laugh] Another time he was told that--he was promoting a particular service that they had, the air conditioning or whatever, and they said, "You're selling too much of this service." That's why he couldn't be promoted. So that's one. Another black guy, who had been with this organization for over 30 years, very well respected externally because he was in manufacturing and he has this particular knack for--he was called the turn-around man. He has a particular knack for going into a manufacturing operation and being able to, you know, whip it into shape, you know? The key performance indicators, the KPIs and all those kinds of things. I mean, he's a guru at that, right? [Lead?] manufacturing and all of that kind of stuff. And they would always send him to the place that was performing the worst, and he would go. So then they decided they were gonna put him in D&I, and this was after 30 years [?], so he's out of his element in D&I. He's gonna do his KPIs, he's gonna do his, you know, manufacturing operations. I think he turned just a few people off, right? So he ended up retiring early. No retirement party after all this. He's doing so well on the outside because he's got articles, he's got--he's well-known in this space, but he was kind of forced out of the organization because somebody didn't like, you know, what he said. So I think, you know, black men, one of the [?] chapters in my book, I have Tall, Dark, and Handsome, right? So when a white man is tall, he's paid more. When a black man is tall, he's actually paid less. The darker-skinned the black male man is, the less that he gets paid, right? Lighter-skinned black men get paid more than dark-skinned black men. So you take a black man who is tall and dark-skinned, you know, that feeds a whole lot of stereotypes, right? You know, and the handsome, you know, like I said in my book, black women [think they're handsome?, laughing] but the majority group probably doesn't. Not so much, right? But you're penalized. You know, black men are penalized, you know, for being tall. Black men are penalized for being darker-skinned. So my son, who is--he went to Harvard, Duke and Princeton, he studied under Cornell West. He is now a tenured associate professor of religion at Duke University. So when he was a kid he was always big. Joe's about, like, 6'5", so he was always big, and they always told him, you know, "You're gonna hurt the other kids. You gotta, you know--" So he's this gentle giant now because he was told, you know, "Don't be too aggressive." Up until the fourth grade there was something wrong with Joe all the time. We had to see a psychologist. You know, he just wasn't adjusting right, and he just da-da-da-da. All of these things. You know, he was in a white school district and usually the only black kid, one of two in his class. So in the fourth grade he had a teacher, he was a white male teacher, who said, "You know what? I think the only thing wrong with Joe is that he's brilliant." He said, "That's the only thing I think is wrong with him." And as soon as Joe started to see himself as brilliant and everybody else started to see himself as brilliant, guess what? Joe become brilliant, and voila, Harvard, Duke, Princeton grad, but if somebody hadn't told him that he was--[?], right? And so Joe writes about hip-hop and religion. He writes about the African-American experience. His book is--you might want to interview my son. His book is called "Hope: Draped in Black," and--Zach: I'd love to interview him, yeah. Let's talk about it offline for sure.Mary-Frances: Yeah, but what he talks about is how you hold hope in the wake of, you know, all of the oppression and whatnot. But, you know, we talked this weekend about black men and about, you know, the hip-hop culture and the gangster and, you know, the rape culture, and we talked about all of that and how that plays out and, you know, why that is, and yeah, it's--black men are very complex, very complex, and they have been, you know, obviously treated the worst. So it's tied up in self-concept. It's tied up in a whole lot of--and what one study found is that black men who have a good self-concept and are also able to figure out how to navigate, you know, the system, they do well in a corporation, but you've got to come first with a good self-concept, and I think, as quiet as its kept, all that bravado sometimes with black men, you know, "Show me some respect" and all that kind of stuff, you know, and "I'm all of that," I think underneath is really a lot of trauma.Zach: Oh, I agree with that. I think you're 100%, I mean, just spot on, and I also think, you know, when you think about black men in this space--it's interesting because black men and white women have something in common, where black men are black, yet they benefit to a much lesser degree, but they still benefit to a degree, from patriarchy, and white women are women of course, but then they benefit from white supremacy. So there's some dynamics there that are nuanced, and yet in a way that black women don't. So black women are women and they're black, right? So it's like, okay, there's no pool that you can pull from or there's nothing that you can really pull from a position of privilege. Of course you have able-bodied privilege, and if you're cisgender and all those things, but I'm talking about, like, just at a high level. So then--but I was gonna say that, you know, it's hard to talk about that because black men benefit from patriarchy, but it's like, "But it shouldn't be hard to at least try to engage in the subject a bit more intentionally," because, I mean, it hasn't stopped white women from being the center of attention for diversity and inclusion efforts for decades.Mary-Frances: Right, exactly. Yeah, no. I think you're right, and so in the book Black Fatigue I question whether, you know--so to a certain extent yes, I guess I would agree that black men benefit from patriarchy, but it's more intra-culture than it is inter-culture.Zach: Right, 'cause black men ain't out here about to just be out here disrespecting white women at work.Mary-Frances: Right. Yes, there you go. Yeah, not unless [?]--nobody better know about it anyway, right? [laughs]Zach: Well, shoot. [laughs] Well, and that's the thing that blows my mind. Like, I had a conversation. I'll never forget. This was some years ago. I had a conversation with somebody who tried to, like, insinuate that the reason why I spoke so much at work was because, you know, I was the only man, and perhaps because as a man I'm used to dominating conversations. And I said, "Look, I might be the only man in this space, but I'm also the only black person in this space, and certainly the only black man," and I said, "So if you think that the reason why I'm quote-unquote dominating this conversation is because I'm a man and y'all are a bunch of white women, that's false." I said, "I would actually be more akin to being quiet," as it took me time to find my voice as a black man in white spaces. I said, "I would challenge you to ask why you would use the language that I'm dominating anything by simply raising my voice in a meeting," right? But there's, like, this--I agree with you. I think that there's a, like, lack of nuance when we talk about even how patriarchy is mobilized for black men. I think black men are benefiting from patriarchy with other black people. They don't benefit from patriarchy, like, from--like, if it's me or Karen, Karen is gonna win out.Mary-Frances: Right, exactly. And for reasons like I was saying earlier. These studies show, you know, a tall--you know, you've got your stature if you will, that's a negative. You've got the color that's a negative, right? And so yeah, in white spaces, I think that it is an intersectionality in white spaces. You're black and you're a man. It's a marginalized identity.Zach: So, you know, your colleague Brittany Harris, VP of learning and innovation at The Winters Group, who we've had on in the past, has said that power is the silent P in this work. I'd love to hear more from you on the concept of power and how it fits into this engagement of workplace equity.Mary-Frances: Yeah. I mean, it is very much at the center, and it's complex, and when folks have power, why would they want to give it up? So I am not a proponent of power and privilege discussions with novices in this work. So folks who have not--I'm talking about people who are trying to teach, people who are trying to teach who have not had years of kind of understanding how all this plays out, I'm not in favor of going in and telling them that they have power and privilege. Yeah, I have it and I want to keep it. [laughs] Right? I mean, why would someone want to give that up? [?] Black people standing in front of a bunch of white men talking about, "You have power and privilege." Yeah. And so [they're?] like, "Yeah, what's wrong with that?" [laughs] I mean, they don't say that, but. And the other thing is how do they relinquish that power? I mean, that's really difficult to do. And the other problem that I have with that--so yeah, there's this inequitable power dynamic, but the other problem that I have with that is that we are accepting that we don't have power. We're rendering ourselves powerless, right? And so in the corporate world what is the key term? Empower. We want to empower our people. E-M, right? Empower, right? That is somebody giving you their power. So this is part of the corporate speak, you know, that I don't like, right? It's part of the dominant culture of corporate speak. I should have written about that one in my book. I might still. Anyway, I want to turn that around, that E-M to M-E. Me power. I have power. And so we have agency, but we don't take it. We don't use it because we have internalized that we don't have the power, we don't have power, and we cannot continue to--this is one of the trends I'd like to see, not to continue to talk to folks about power and just use our power, not to magnify the inequities. So everybody knows that if you're a white man in a corporation and whatnot and you're the manager or the leader or the director or the whatever, everybody knows you got power, right? [laughs] You know? You gotta tell me you have power? Why you gotta tell me that? Right? And so I think that there are other ways to claim power. I think that part of that is just the confidence that we come with, the self-concept that we come with. I think that we have to be ready to leave spaces, because there are consequences for us exercising power, and we have to have some safety nets, more safety nets than we have. So I left, you know, some 30 something years ago. I just stepped out on faith, I mean, 'cause I have a strong faith, and I didn't know what was gonna happen, but I just knew I couldn't stay there. We do know that black women, they're 40% more likely to start their own businesses than any other group, right? Because we recognize that it's traumatizing, and so this whole idea of--so who came up with the idea of power and power and privilege? White folks. To tell us that there's a power inequity... Surprise, surprise. And you know what? We're not gonna change that by telling white people that they have power. That is not gonna change that. The only thing that's gonna change it is for us to claim our power and to recognize that we have it. Zach: I love it. No, I'm right there with you.Mary-Frances: Right? [laughing] Stop telling white folks what they already know, that they got power. They already know that.Zach: No, that's true. Like, them not, like, screaming it from the rooftops doesn't mean that they don't know that.Mary-Frances: Well, exactly. Why would I scream it from the rooftops? Again, the dominant group, it's not something that they probably even--even when we call their attention to it, there are many who will want to say, "Uh-huh. And let me figure out how I'm gonna maintain it." There might be others who are curious. "Hm, there is this dynamic. Maybe I should, you know, do something to work on that," but the forces are so strong and entrenched, right, over 400 years of entrenchment, that it's not gonna change. You know, two or three or the small groups that you might get who are all for shifting that power dynamic, they're not strong enough to overcome that larger group who wants to maintain the status quo. So we just have to take it. We have to grab the power. We have to first of all understand we have it already. It's not grabbing anything. We already have it. We just have to use it and accept that there will be consequences sometimes for using that power, and if we don't have the strong safety nets in our community to, you know, accept and to protect those folks who, you know, get fired, you know, are out there, you know, being called out on social media because they're telling the truth or, you know, whatever it might be. We as a people don't support and protect our own as much as we should.Zach: Man, that's, like, a whole separate [?], and what we need to do is make sure we bring you back on when your book is closer to being published and talk about that, because I do think that, you know, how we--so, you know, we had Robin DiAngelo on some time ago, and she talked about white solidarity and the concept of essentially the formal or informal closing of ranks that white folks do to protect one another, often times at the detriment or harm of black and brown folks, and yet I don't--you know, because of colonization and because of just internalized oppression, you know, we don't have that I don't think in the same--Mary-Frances: We don't, yeah.Zach: And that's created so many challenges for us. I mean, since antebellum to today, right? Like, we've had so many issues because we don't necessarily practice to the same degree, protection of one another. So let's do this. You know, as you look across these leadership groups, especially during this pandemic, what are some of the top things you believe that majority leadership groups are doing today that undermine their own workplace equity efforts?Mary-Frances: They have not educated themselves, so they are not--they think that they know, they think that their good intentions are good enough. So I've heard leaders say, "I don't care if it's the right thing to do for business," you know, the business case that we talked about earlier, "I just think it's the right thing to do, so now go forth and do it." However, because they don't have an understanding of the history or they know the history that was told wrong, they really don't know what to do. So they're making wrong decisions based on ignorance or, you know, a lack of information. I think the second thing that majority leadership does, particularly in the corporate world, is that they still have to speak to and answer to shareholders, and so they're not going to do anything that is going to, you know, jeopardize that. And so even when you're looking at board members, and what I hear often times is, you know, "Oh, the board won't go for that," or "We've gotta satisfy the board." Well, you need to change the board then. The board may not be--you know, you may not have the right people, because boards are tokenized [when] they have one token black person and one, you know, token woman on the board, right? So those are two things, and I think during the pandemic, I think because of this ignorance they are just not aware, big companies are just not aware of the world that some of the folks on the lowest rung face, and so when you say, you know, "shelter in place, stay home," that home may not be safe. That home may be filled with violence, right? You know, you make decisions about "Who are essential workers and who are not essential workers?" and you don't--you know, are you thinking about the health--again, talking with a client today, you know, talking about some of their contingent, you know, workforce, and they were saying, you know, "Well, are we gonna pay the sick pay or aren't we gonna pay the sick pay?" You know, [?], and so all of these kinds of questions, and they realized that "Yeah, we absolutely need to do that," and so I don't think that there's enough understanding of what marginalized groups face regardless of their socio-economic. So they're making decisions from their own lens, from their own--I'll use the word privileged--from their own privileged lens, and they're missing things. It's coming to light, right? A lot of this stuff is now coming to light, but some of the earlier decisions missed just the horrific impact that this is having on everybody, but particularly those who are in the lowest low end of the economic chain.Zach: Mary-Frances, this has been an incredible conversation. You know, I'd love to make sure that I give you space to talk a little bit more about The Winters Group, what you're most excited about, what you're looking forward to, even during times as uncertain and extraordinary as these. I'd love to just give you space to talk a little bit more about your company. Mary-Frances: Yeah, so we're looking forward to, you know, transforming ourselves as we always do, but this pandemic has made it absolutely imperative, and we've already been doing virtual learning, but we are looking at innovative ways to do virtual, ways that other people are not doing virtual. You know, we have whiteboards, and we have ways that we can break people out into groups. Like, the technology allows that, but I think the ways that we're doing it--we're doing simulations, and so I think this is an opportunity for us to be really, really innovative in terms of how we deliver our message. I did a virtual keynote, you know, a few weeks ago. I think it's also an opportunity for us to continue our [?] of the corporate message and the social justice message, because they have certainly come together with COVID-19 in terms of just what I was just talking about, how we see how marginalized people are even more marginalized. You know, as the saying goes, "When the world gets a cold, black people get pneumonia. When the world gets pneumonia, black people die," and so we're seeing that now, and I think it's the opportunity for us to even more strongly advocate for the intersection of social justice and corporate.Zach: Man, thank you so much, Mary-Frances. This has been phenomenal. And y'all, that does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. You know we do this every week. Coming to y'all with real talk in a corporate world. Make sure you check us out everywhere, okay? So you pull up your Google or your, I don't know, Bing, or your Yahoo or whatever search engine machine you're using, and you just type in Living Corporate. We're gonna pop up there, okay? Make sure you check out the show notes. Make sure you check out The Winters Group. Check out all the work that they're doing. Shout-out to The Winters Group and all of their incredible work. Shout-out to black women out here holding everybody down per usual. Thank you for all of your work. And shoot, 'til next time, we'll catch y'all. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Mary-Frances Winters, CEO and founder of The Winters Group, leadership, diversity, equity and inclusion consulting firm. Been out here laying the groundwork for y'all, setting legacies, and [they're] probably your favorite consultant's favorite consulting agency, okay? They've been out here. They've been doing the work. 'Til next time. Peace.

Zach has the honor of sitting down to chat with God-is Rivera, Twitter's first ever global director of culture and community, about recognizing power in digital communities. She talks about how her passion for journalism and storytelling led her to her role at Twitter and shares the ways she sees people creating a sense of community on the platform today. She also comments on the trends she sees happening in digital community building over the next year or so. Check the links in the show notes to connect with God-is!Connect with God-is on Twitter. She's also on LinkedIn and Instagram.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and okay, so look. We know Ms. Rona is out here. Not to minimize or, you know, de-emphasize the stark reality and grievous nature of this global pandemic, but we want to make sure that we're keeping our spirits and attitudes high, and so we know that it's wild out here. We know that folks whole lives are changing. We're adjusting to different types of normal, re-identifying what normal means, and, you know, you can rest assured that in the midst of all of this stuff going on that Living Corporate is gonna be here, you know what I mean? So, you know, it's interesting. I've had people, you know, send me messages and be like, you know, "This diversity and inclusion stuff, like, you shouldn't expect that your podcast, this platform, y'all's blog, the learning platform that y'all are trying to build and whatever, for that to really take precedent when we're in the middle of a pandemic," and what I've constantly had to remind people is that, look, folks on the margins will always be on the margins. Folks were on the margin before this pandemic, and they're on the margins now, and so, like, Living Corporate and the work that we're doing and the work that all equity, community, culture, belonging professionals are doing is all the more important now. And so it's with that that I'm really excited about the guest that we have today, you know? I'm not even going to read this long ol' bio. I'ma just get into it. We have God-is Rivera. God-is, welcome to the show.God-is: Hey, guys. What's up? Thanks for having me.Zach: What's up? How are you and your loved ones doing during this time?God-is: You know, we are so blessed. I am in New York, in New York City, and my immediate family, my husband, my daughter, and my mom and aunt, who kind of--we all live in Westchester County--we're okay. Everyone's been healthy. I've got grandparents between Atlanta and South Carolina and, you know, thank God they have been adhering to staying at home. I had to do a little nudging in the beginning, but, you know, them old folks is trying to get to the buffet. [laughs]Zach: We gotta have a conversation about that, right? [laughs] And it's interesting because I've talked to other black folks, right, who have these parents who have lived through all types of stuff, so they're not really concerned about some invisible illness, right? You know what I mean? They'll just take some castor oil and they'll be fine, you know?God-is: Some tussin. [both laugh] For sure.Zach: They've seen much worse. But you're right though, it's a blessing to have family members who will listen. I know my dad--you know, my dad, he and I are very similar, so I told him--and my dad is 55--so I was like, "Hey, Dad. You know, y'all staying inside, right?" He's "Oh, son. No, no, no. You ain't gotta worry about me. I'm right at the house." I said, "Okay, good." [laughs]God-is: [laughs] That's so crazy. My mom's the same exact age as your dad, and, like, she was good. She was like, "Oh, I've been in the house." Like, my mom works remote anyway, you know, normally, and so it was the grandparents I was kind of like, "Come on, now, y'all," but they got it early and they're okay.Zach: Yeah, it's definitely the grandparents. Okay, so now look, I have a lot of questions for you, but first I gotta get into your name. Can we talk about God-is?God-is: [laughs] Yes, I can. You know, it's really kind of a simple story. I know it's a different name, but the story is kind of simple. So my mom, she was a teenage mom, you know, just trying to figure it out, from the Bronx, New York. Shout-out BX. Zach: What's up? Yerp.God-is: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yerp. [both laugh] And, you know, she was trying to figure it out at the time, and she had this dream when she was about 7 months pregnant she told me, and it was just her great-grandmother who was speaking to her and kind of was like, "You have to name this child God-is," and so--actually in the dream I think she said it was "God-is-love," and she was like, "I don't know. This is so different." You know, my mom's name is Melissa, so. And she just felt like it was such a strong feeling that she just--she was like, "I have to follow this," so she went ahead and did it, and it's so interesting that, you know, having this name for over 30 years, I could never imagine my name being anything else. I never was ridiculed for it. You know, I've had a lot of conversations and great conversation starters, but it is--I've always felt so comfortable in it, and I think for me it really reminds me every day to just continue to step into my power and the amazing kind of gift that I was given just through my namesake. So it's not kind of a crazy story, but, you know, an interesting one I guess.Zach: Nah, nah. It's not crazy at all, but it is very interesting 'cause I saw it and, you know, it's also really--so I'm from the South, right, so, like, my family is, like, very churched. So I was talking to my mom about--[both laugh]--I was talking to my mom about this interview that I was going to be doing. I said, "Look, I finally got this, like, global leader. She has this incredible, like, huge profile, and I'm just really excited to interview her," and she was like, "What's her name?" I said, "Her name is God-is." She said, "God--Goddess?" I said, "No, no, not Goddess. No, God-is," and she said, "God-is?" And so I'm like, "Momma, just hold on." And so it's funny, 'cause I was like, "I gotta make sure I ask. For the culture. I need to know." Okay, so let's talk about your journey getting to Twitter. Like, how did your passion for journalism and storytelling lead you here?God-is: Hm. Okay. So that's a great question. It's really interesting to me when I think about, you know, being at Twitter now. My whole career was shaped by social media, and, you know, when I was trying to figure out, you know, Young God-is back in, you know, high school or, you know, trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, this didn't exist, you know? I think MySpace, it kind of sort of started when I got to school, and it was just one of those things that I knew that I wanted to be a journalist. I love writing, I love editorial writing, but what I wanted to do more than just, you know, kind of general journalism is I knew I wanted to work in black media. I wanted to work as a writer or an editor. I wanted to make sure that I was elevating stories and spreading awareness for the people that I felt, you know, had been silenced, which was my community, the black community, and then others. So I think just through that kind of passion I went into journalism, and I also am part of those millennials who's like, "Shout-out to the second economic recession we're coming up on!" [laughs] Because it was like, "Yo, I thought we had one in a lifetime, but oh, we doing two? Oh, okay." So, you know, getting out of school for me was right around that time, and it was just like, "Yo, I'm just trying to make my mom proud and not be unemployed," and I kind of found my way into marketing. Even though I wanted to do journalism and I continued to moonlight and really try to make that happen, I started to really become into marketing, and it was just like, "Let me just get a job." But in doing that I think, you know, I realized that marketing also tells those stories, and there's a chance to represent people and really elevate people who aren't always seen, and that's kind of what led me on that journey. And I will also say, you know, mid-2000s, 2006, 2007, when I started my career, it was always like--when it comes to social media it was like, "Who's the 23-year-old in the office?" Like, "I don't know about that Facebook," you know what I mean? "I don't know about that Twitter. I don't know about that, you know? Just tell her to do it," and that kind of attitude that of course over time become much more--brands and companies began to take it much more seriously, but that was kind of how I got my start, you know? I was a writer who could craft posts or ideas for these platforms, and I also knew how to actually post them, not like many other people in the office who were a little older than me. So that was kind of how I started my journey. So it was a little bit of serendipity, but also still me chasing this kind of passion to tell the story and represent for people who were not always able to do that.Zach: You know, and I really want to understand, like, you know, your experience in social strategy, because you're right. Like, there was a time when it was like, you know, we'd look at Facebook or we'd look at Twitter and we'd--like, we'd scoff at that. Like, I remember I had an internship where I created essentially, like, a social media--like, an ambassador program for this recruitment company, and everyone had a social media profile, and you were supposed to essentially, like, build your brand on social media, which would then drive, you know, business to the startup or whatever, right? But you're essentially building presence on Twitter. And this was, like, in 2010--God-is: Hm, those early days. [laughs]Zach: Yeah, so people were like, "What is this?" They were like, "Oh, this is cute, but this doesn't mean anything," and so I'm curious as to, like, what did it look like to take your experience in the social strategy work and, like, help it inform what you do for Twitter today? Like, can we talk a little bit about that?God-is: Yes. You know, I'm so grateful to the years that I spent really learning content strategy, learning social strategy, and I think it goes back to kind of that point about knowing that I wanted to kind of help elevate stories, and so what happened was that I really started to understand that there was a lot of power--you know how you think about in the court system it's like the prosecutor has all the power, right? In advertising creators have a lot of that power, but the story is sold and the plan comes from strategy, and I really took a liking to that. I realized that, you know, for me, what thrills me about strategy was that I have a chance to really kind of help build that story. I have a chance to figure out "Who is the people that we want to see that story? Where does it show up? How does it show up, and who is in that?" So I think for me, like, I really started to understand that there was a power in that, and then at the same time other brands realized that there is a return in this medium that was kind of a throwaway, right? There is something coming from when we post and then people around the world are talking about this instantly. And I think it was kind of two things happening at once. You had also more access to, you know, phones and technology that could help people kind of see things in an instant and, you know, thinking about campaigns that you were gonna through display or print long ago and then posting something in 90 seconds, you have, you know, celebrities in the public answering you about your product. You know, that's something that's just invaluable. So I think that's kind of what really started to help me understand that even more, and so I really became a planner, and I got to do it for, you know, both large and small brands, but what I think really kind of intrigued me the most is that what I realized about strategy is that there's always a target, right? Who do you want to see this message? Who do we want to respond to this? And also who is in this message? How does it look? How does it show up? What experience is it detailing? And I think that that, as I worked more in advertising, that was very homogeneous, you know? It was kind of the same target, the same people, over and over again, and so even me working in those positions, my own experience was left out, so I started to be really, really interested in, you know, "How are we gonna stop making this mistake? How can we stop ignoring communities that are actually shifting the culture but we're not even including them in who we're speaking to, nor their experience in what we're putting out into the world?" So I knew that through strategic direction that I could try and maybe shed a light on that, and that's really kind of where I focused. So just in thinking through audiences that matter, audiences that have been left out, as a true strategist I need that full story. I can't actually do that job well only looking at one small piece of an audience or a compelling story, and so I use kind of just that literal sense, taking the emotion out, because I'm a black woman who wanted to see that experience and I wanted to see other people's experiences as well, but you can't deny that you need a holistic kind of view to do your job well if you're speaking to the world and you're saying that's what you're doing. So that kind of interest in better understanding communities and what matters to them and how they want to be seen is kind of how I started along this path of informing the work that I do today, which is really working to connect with marginalized communities and make sure that they're amplified.Zach: So, you know, that leads me really well into the next question. So, like, I want to talk a bit about position and power, right? You sit in a global role in one of the biggest brands on the planet. God-is: Ooh, you're making me sound cool. I like it.Zach: I mean, your name is God-is. So how do you manage the responsibility that you have as a leader? Because I would imagine you have internal pressures to, like--like you said, there are things that you want to see realized and there are things that you want to achieve. There's a legacy and part of a longer term roadway that you're riding on, but then there's also external pressures I would imagine because of the intersectionality of your own identity, right? Like, you think about who you represent and what people maybe project onto you. And it's like, what does it look like to manage both sets of pressures while being one of the few in these spaces?God-is: Wow. I really appreciate that question. It often doesn't come in that way [laughs] that acknowledges some of those internal and external pressures, but I think what I love the most about that question is that--I just appreciate you using the word power. I think power is extremely important. I think that, you know, as they continue on in their career that, you know, positions can sometimes be a dime a dozen. They can come along and come and go, but they don't always include power, and I think that power affords this kind of real chance to create something new, to affect change and really challenge systems that aren't working and to actually be truly heard while you do it. So I very much am appreciative, but also just very thoughtful about how I utilize the power that I'm grateful that I've been able to have at Twitter. I really feel like a leader that is heard who's able to challenge and create in a way that is something that's supported, which I know is not always the case specifically for some of us that are kind of, like you said, one of the onlys. I'm not at Twitter, but, you know, in this industry, absolutely. So I think that that's important, and I think about the word pressure too. I don't know that I--it can get overwhelming, but I don't know that I would call it pressure as much as I would call it maybe an expectation or a commitment. So I think sometimes I get overwhelmed because just I--there's so much I want to do and get done, you know, for the communities I serve, but the way that I kind of balance myself and stay that way is that I just have to know that every single day I am working towards what I promised, right? Every day, and that my mission, my overall mission, my integrity, it stays intact every step of the way and that I know I'm not letting up any time soon, and I try and live that externally and internally so that I can say, "Look, I am continuing on this road. I know that it's important to me. There has been nothing that has, you know, taken me off course," whether it be your own ego or just kind of getting lazy. I know that I must continue on this mission, and so that's kind of the responsibility that I feel being in these spaces, that I have to continue to do this work to make things better and that I have to hold the door open for other people to do this work with me as well.Zach: You know, and let's talk about the work, right? So you're Twitter's first ever global director of culture and community. Now, let me just tell you, when I heard the title I said, "Ayo." [laughs]God-is: [laughs] I was trying to do big things. I'm trying to do big things.Zach: I said, "Yo, wait a second!" I was like... I mean, I don't know. It just--that sounds like a big title with a big, big, big bag. I was like, "Man." I mean, I was praising Him for you. I was over here [blessings come in sfx]. I was like--[both laughing]God-is: I love it, I love it. I appreciate you. Thank you.Zach: No, no, let's talk about what this means and what your responsibility is and what your team's responsibility is.God-is: Yeah, you know, and I think--you know, I would have to say, like I said before, giving some credit to Twitter, well, the credit to Twitter, for noticing that this was something that was a gap for them and that they wanted to fill. I would like to just maybe talk a little bit about how I got this job at Twitter. It wasn't the traditional kind of application way, I guess I'll say, because I think that how I got the job also speaks to literally the work that I'm doing now. And so, just as we mentioned before, my work in social strategy, I had really started to try and find examples of how I could explain and display communities that were shifting culture, that were forming together across social platforms, and then how those kind of phenomenons could be completely missed, you know, at agencies or with huge brands and how these things were formulating and happening, but because there was almost this cultural blind spot, nobody even knew what was going on. And one of the communities that I was particularly fascinated by was Black Twitter. I think that to me it was just such an incredible just example of how a historically marginalized community kind of uses their own cultural and shared experience to come together through technology and then literally shift culture, shift the narrative in a way that's very democratized, which is kind of what Twitter offers with this kind of space. And so I had started just a small presentation about that in the ad world, and it kind of made its rounds. I had done it at a couple conferences, and I had also made sure that I formed a pretty decent relationship with Twitter comms. I didn't want to get no C&D. [laughs] Like, "Who this girl think she is out here [?] telling me how to--" You know, and I want to make sure that, you know, I didn't know if they had something. I didn't want to step on any toes. And we developed a very nice working relationship, and, you know, from there they had started thinking about their first kind of all hands on deck, all-employee conference, which is called OneTeam. The first one they did was in 2018. And they actually invited me to speak about Black Twitter and do my presentation at their conference, and I was like, "Wow, you want me to do it? Okay," and so when I went I said--you know, I kind of was like, "Well, normally I do this presentation for the ad world, and at the end of my presentation I say, "And these are the people you need to be hiring. These are the people you need to be partnering with. Do not miss groups like this,"" and this is just one example of so many groups, you know, that we need to be making sure that we better pay attention to, but at Twitter, you know, I said, "Well, I want to kind of challenge them a little differently," and my challenge at the end of that presentation was how was Twitter better connecting with the voices from these groups, you know? Do they have plans for a cultural department or something that focuses on these communities in this way? And lo and behold. [laughs] So after getting off stage I was just so, you know, again, just incredibly blessed to be approached by some of the leadership there--shout-out to Jack, Leslie Berland, Lara Cohen, Nola Weinstein, who really set things in motion for me to come to the company. They just felt like, "This clicks. You get it, you get us, and this is absolutely something that we need to focus on." So again, I think just that acknowledgement of the importance of understanding these communities, the fact that it birthed literally this work and this role and this practice now, my team at Twitter, is just something I'm proud of and I think the community should be proud of as well, because I'm not talking about myself in my presentation. I'm talking about these collective voices who have literally shifted history and brought joy and accountability in ways that are just incredible. So I think that's kind of part of the story I think is important to put in context. Not everyone knows that story. I think it's important. But, you know, thinking through my own challenge now--I didn't realize at the time I was challenging myself. [laughs] It was very meta if you think about it, but I came in to solve that problem and kind of figure out what that looks like, so my team specifically focuses on building kind of these real world relationships with the voices from these marginalized communities who are active and who love and are loud on Twitter. So I wanted a team, you know, who really could help to continue to recognize the incredible power of these voices. Like I talked about before, they drive conversation, and they really shape culture on Twitter. The other piece of that is that as we look at how they use the platform, how they use their service and what they speak about, we have consistent learnings and insights. So what my team does is really kind of help our partners across the business understand how these communities both embrace and experience our service, good, bad and ugly, and so by doing that what we really hope to do is build a bridge between the service of Twitter and the people that it serves, and that's something that I think was really important to me, that we started to become this sort of connective tissue, and the goal in that is to really help empower Twitter to build the best product, but the best product that reflects the richness of the people who use it. [laughs] And so, you know, we can start to evolve how we amplify the conversations that are most important to these groups. So just really making sure that these people's experience, their conversations, what's happening, how they use it, use Twitter, that it's on the map, that it's a part of how we think about building our product, that it's a part of how we think about our marketing. It's embedded in every piece and fabric across our organization. I hope that makes sense. [laughs]Zach: It does make sense. In fact, let me go ahead and just drop this real quick. [Flex bomb sfx] A quick Flex bomb. That's how I felt as you were sharing--God-is: [laughing, imitating air horns]Zach: Oh, yeah. No, we got that--no, we got that too. [air horns sfx] For sure.God-is: Ayyy.Zach: Ayyy. So--[both laugh] No, no, it makes a lot of sense, and I 100% agree with you that--first of all, like, I wish we could just take a step back, and what I love about the work that you're doing and what you're highlighting is the meta narrative of black influence, like, just in culture period, right? Like, before Twitter we was already, like, shaking the globe. Like, we've influenced art, fashion, language, dance. Everything.God-is: Yep. We been 'bout that life.Zach: About it, and so we just so happen to be on this--anything that we jump on, like, we make it better, you know what I mean? God-is: Right, right.Zach: And so when I think about, like, Black Twitter, and I think about, you know, you're absolutely right that there's something about this community that is able to hop on, like, a platform and then suddenly, like, change narratives or, like, shift attention, and Twitter is a phenomenal tool for that. I think it's--like, it's gonna go down... this is not an ad for Twitter. Like, it's just the truth. Like, and you think about--[both laugh] But, like, when you look back... like, so my daughter is 5 weeks old. God-is: Oh, congrats. Zach: Thank you very much, yeah. She is adorable, and, like, as I've just kind of come to the reality of her being here, like, I think about the things that she's gonna learn in school, and I think about, like, "She's probably going to--" Like, when they study, like, technology that influenced generations or just different seasons of life or activism or whatever the case is, like, they're going to look at--Twitter is gonna be one of the technologies that they talk about, because it is one of the first times that we've seen, like, large-scale democratization of access and data and information and conversation and just general communication, like, across--and, like, for free. Like, relatively for free, right? You have to have Wi-Fi and stuff, but there's no direct cost to get on Twitter. Like, you just jump on it. And so I want to talk a little bit about how you see people today create a sense of community on Twitter. Like, what does that look like from your perspective?God-is: Yeah, and that's what's just been so fascinating. I share that kind of sentiment with you, and sometimes it's almost just incredible to think about, when we're kind of heads down in the office working we're like, "Oh, my God." Like, you know, "This is gonna be in the history books." Like, the work that we're doing right now, just because of where we are and what we're focused on, will be in history. I used to always say--I have an 8-year-old daughter. A little older than 5 weeks. But I always think about, "I just want to be in her history book for doing something that mattered," you know? And I think that, you know, the work that we can do here, it can be that important and impactful, and it keeps me grounded and it keeps me humble and it keeps me fighting even on days that are frustrating. And so I think also the thing that I love to see is how people create community on Twitter. I love that you said that one of our tenets is always to keep the platform free so that there can be that access for people to have these kinds of conversations and this public discourse, and so we kind of see people create community on our platform--there are kind of a couple different lenses. So, you know, there's obviously some interest-based communities where, you know, NBA Twitter is definitely out here. I mean, it's a lot going on every Sunday now with this Jordan doc, and you kind of see that happen, but that's a hugely active community, and that's around a shared passion. An interest, right?Zach: The Homecoming Twitter. Remember?God-is: Yes! Yes. Beychella Twitter. [laughs] Yeah, so we see that. We even see things that people may not even realize. Like, Plant Twitter is huge. Like, people share all types of, you know, just tips and tricks and beautiful photos of plants and flowers and so forth in their homes and gardens, and then we see--you know, there's obviously some professions that come. Academic Twitter is huge. I've learned a lot just about Education Twitter, Finance, and then there's also locations of course, and then of course we get into kind of those affinities and the allyship and the movements, and those are the Black Lives Matter and #MeToo, and we see a huge coalescence around those kind of moments. And then of course, you know, kind of where we get into my work is around those identity-based communities, and that's when we think about Black Twitter, Native Twitter, you know, Differently-abled Twitter, you know, Latinx--Zach: So educational.God-is: Yeah, you know? And Latinx, LGBTQ+ Twitter, you know, there's tons of intersections and sub-communities within there, and I think that is what's so fascinating. You know, just thinking about even just those groups that I just named, they don't have equal footing, you know? Even of each other, in society, to be able to tell their stories in their voices, but on Twitter, you know, that is democratized. It was somewhat of an equal playing field when it comes to people being able to share what matters to them or their experiences. So that's kind of exactly where my team focuses. I focus the most on those--I am here to serve specifically those identity-based communities, and, you know, again, this is not something that--no one ticks a box obviously and says what they are or what community they ascribe to when they sign up for Twitter, but through inferences and understanding that there is an allyship or an affinity there or an identity through conversation is what's really important to us, and so that's why I dig into how these communities have kind of leveraged Twitter in unique ways, and what we're seeing is kind of people who have shared experiences or shared kind of identities, we're seeing them kind of just corral around subjects in different ways, and I think it's great that we're able to see even people shape when they're challenging discourse, you know? Mainstream media may report on something--I don't know, something as simple as, like, gentrification, right, where it's an article and it's about, "Oh, look at the new grocery store that's in Brooklyn, and it's great, right?" It is nice that there is a new grocery store in Brooklyn, but then we're able to also see that that displaces people who lived there for 30 years. You know, is it construction in a playground area or something? And so I think it allows people to have this kind of 360 degree conversation that they've been craving but was only kind of relegated to the way that these groups could physically meet up in spaces, in physical spaces, and now we're seeing that kind of much more decentralized. Zach: God-is, it's almost as if you talk to people all the time, 'cause you're helping me--[both laughing] you're helping me segue really well into my next question, because, and I talked about it at the top, I'm talking about it again. So the rona, or as some folks say "that rona," is actively outside, and finding meaningful connection is more important now than ever. What are trends you see happening in digital community building over the next year or so?God-is: Wow. You know, I mean, this is--I'm so tired of people saying "unprecedented." Like, Lord, we need another word, right? Like, what is another word we could use? But I think, you know, it's been so interesting. Again, as a strategist, the study of human behavior--and I often think about the work that I do is more of almost a digital anthropology, because you get to watch how behavior shifts around different ideas, different events, and of course different just huge, I guess, news stories or health crises that are affecting us like the rona. So I think one of the things that I've really seen is that I think that we're gonna continue to see people really trying to create space and find opportunity for these really important inter-community discussions around mental wellbeing and wholeness. I've seen a lot of discussions between several communities about the idea that this is the first time many people have had in most working lives to slow down, and so they're able to kind of foster these deeper connections through technology, you know? We're looking at a lot of screens now, but we're trying to make the most of it and really focus on that wellness, and so now that we have that chance to kind of slow down, it's helping more of us stay balanced, more empathetic, more connected. I hope that we see kind of how important taking a moment is and that that continues. The other thing I think--oh, boy. Rona done--it done started a lot of stuff, right? [both laugh] Zach: It has, or exposed a lot of things too.God-is: Yeah. Oh, yeah, exposed. I think, in terms of technology too, I think that this will continue. I mean, we've already seen just the type of connective creativity that's come out of people just being in the house, right? People just being relegated to having to shelter in place, and so I think that we'll see more of this kind of agile, nimble creativity, and then also amplifying and uplifting those people who are leaning into that. So I think we were kind of in this space before where we were sort of fortunate. We never had to really think about being immediately without certain spoils of society, and now we kind of all know that that can shift drastically in a nanosecond and that it also can be out of our control too. So I think that, you know, industries, companies, brands, governments and individuals will really start to think about how they can better stay agile and quickly adapt for moments like this since it's just in our psyche now and it's not leaving. So I think thinking through what are the tools--you know, even myself, I'm sitting here right now, I've got my microphone, I've got my speakers. I ordered a new desk, you know what I mean? Like, [?]--and I'm fortunate to even be able to do that, but I think people are really thinking through however best in their capability, how can they be sure that they're able to stay connected and be creative and pursue during times that are just uncertain.Zach: You know, as we think about--to your point around, like, privilege, and I'm in the same position as well. Like, my job allows me to work remotely. I'm on paternity leave. When I come back, like, there's gonna be, like, a phased return, and then--you know, like, I'm in a position where I'm being handled relatively gingerly because of just the benefits that my job provides, like, absent of this pandemic but that are particularly beneficial and helpful to me right now. I think about though the folks who don't have the same amount of access I do, right, who look like us, and I'm curious about, you know, can we think about technology and marginalized communities having a more mutually beneficial relationship, and in what ways do you think that we can help drive more access and accessibility for these communities so that they can actually be on platforms where they can be heard?God-is: Right. I mean, that's--I think about it too, you know? I saw an article recently about some people having literally, like, class guilt, you know, almost, over this shelter-in-place, because it just affects so many of us differently. I myself as well can work remotely where so many people can't, so many of the front line workers, essential workers, who have to go out and make sure that we can continue to live, even at the risk of their own health and the health of their families. I do think, you know, again, just going back to that love of strategy, like, the first thing I always do and I always say should be done is listening. I think that so many people jump into trying to figure out what to do before they actually listen to what people need, and that's why I'm really proud of kind of the structure and program that we've built at Twitter, which is the Twitter Voices program, which my team created and runs, and that's kind of just literally a program that allows to try and identify some of these powerful voices coming out of these communities and then set up a sustained kind of relationship with them. How do we check in on them? How do we even have, like, a quick meeting or a lunch? Now a virtual lunch. But creating that kind of ongoing dialogue between the people who need to be heard so that we're aware of what can be done, and I think that's really important to do, because I think that it's important for us to listen to people who need to be heard, and then they can not only get the help that they [?] but also hold us accountable as well. But I think that what's important is that we continue to give these people kind of a microphone and a podium, you know? We need to make sure that they're not being ignored, especially during a time like now. You know, I think back, maybe the early '90s--let's just say this pandemic was 1992 or something. You know, the people who were most affected, the people who are not getting those loans or the PPE, the people who are being forced to go back to work or grapple with losing unemployment even if they feel it's unsafe, we would have no mechanism to really hear them writ large, you know? We would have no mechanism to hear them, you know, their conversations and how they're affected across the country, across the world, and so I think now it's important for technology to make sure that we continue to provide that space, provide that microphone, provide that podium so that these people can be heard, and for people like myself who work in these groups, we need to continue to focus on continuing this momentum of amplifying those conversations, helping to spread awareness on why it's important to listen to these groups, and that will enable us to build better products, you know, create better systems, and honestly overall a better society that should be inclusive to all, and it also allows us to tear down what's not working, and I think that maybe if there is any small silver lining to what's happening is we're seeing so many systems just almost buckle because they were not built to truly serve everyone, and that's something I think that, while that's happening, we need to be sure that we're in partnership, we're listening to and we're rallying behind the people that need us the most.Zach: God-is, this has been an incredible conversation. God-is: Aw, thanks. This is great.Zach: No, this is super dope, and before we let you go, I just want to give you space. Where can people find you? Where can people connect with you at? And then any parting words or shout-outs?God-is: Oh, wow. So thank you so much for having me. This was awesome. This was a nice just break from the rona, [laughs] to get to wrap with you, so thank you again. Everybody can find me on Twitter of course @GodisRivera, G-O-D-I-S-R-I-V-E-R-A. I am terrible at email, so I won't even do that to y'all. [laughs] But if you hit on me Twitter I promise I'll hit you back. Also don't be afraid to slide in the DMs. And then lastly just--Zach: She does respond too. Like, not to cut you off.God-is: I do! See? [laughs]Zach: So y'all, like, months ago I tried to get God-is on the pod, and I think she was actually pretty new to the role. I didn't care, 'cause I was just like, "Yo, this is crazy!" So I slid in the DMs, and then she hit me back, and then, like, we weren't able to make it work, and I was like, "Dang, okay," and I felt like she curved me, and so I said, "Dang, okay," so then I DM'd you and I said, "Hey, you know, I'm sad that we weren't able to make it work, but hopefully we can stay in touch," and she hit me back, y'all. She said, "Yep. 'Sho will," and I said, "Oh, my gosh. Okay," and so then--and now here we are. So look, y'all. 'Cause some of y'all are [churched?] or spiritual. This is not a message to y'all to keep on. [?] So this is not me encouraging you to pester people. This is just me saying that God-is responds to DMs. All right, my bad. Please continue.God-is: No, I appreciate that. Thank you, because I know you probably cannot get me really any other way. Twitter is just where I'm at. This is even before I worked there, so it's very true. And also I think, you know, just one more shout-out to my team at Twitter. I wouldn't be able to delve into this work this way if it wasn't for the support and the consistent support that I get there, from leadership all the way down to my team. Shout-out to Culture & Community. Love you guys. Nola, an incredible leader, Leslie Berland, Jack Dorsey. You know, it's an incredible culture that allows us to be able to dig in and really do what we can to try and make a difference in the world, even if it means we make mistakes along the way. It's a really great, supportive environment, and I'm grateful for it. And just also a shout-out to the home team at home. My husband Jay, my daughter Jordan, my mom, my aunt. That's my home team that allows me to do this work the way that I do and try and serve as many people as I can. And I hope everybody out there stays safe. Thank you to all the front-line workers, the health care workers. Thank you guys so much for doing what you can for us. I hope to hold you guys down as much as you are holding us down.Zach: Wow. [round of applause sfx] Y'all, this has been Living Corporate. Look, you know what we do, right? 200+ episodes in. We're having conversations with executives, entrepreneurs, thought leaders, professors, activists, public servants, elected officials, all about what? Real talk in a corporate world. We center and amplify marginalized voices, underrepresented, underestimated, unaccounted voices in the workplace, and we do this for you every single week. Make sure you check us out. Just Google us, okay? We're all over Barack Obama's internet, right? You just Google Living Corporate, okay? So it's Living Corporate. Not Corporate Living. Corporate Living is the inverse of what I said. So you want to do Living Corporate, and, you know, if you're, like, old school and you gotta type it in the bar, you can do www.living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. You can do livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.us. We have all the livingcorporates, God-is, we just don't have livingcorporate.com. Australia owns livingcorporate.com. It's some--God-is: Dang it. [laughs]Zach: I know, right? But one day, one day the brand will be brolic enough that we will actually go and get livingcorporate.com. I'm just going to speak that. God-is: Yes, manifest it.Zach: I will manifest it, but today the vibrations and chakras are just not there. So look, y'all. Make sure you check us out. Shout-out to God-is. Shout-out to Twitter. Shout-out to your team. And then let's make sure that y'all check out all the links in the show notes. Y'all check out God-is. Please do not bombard her with DMs, okay? I can't imagine what her DMs look like, but she has offered. She has let you know that that's the way to reach her, but I'm just asking as a courtesy. Just think about what it is that you have to say, maybe share it with--you know, maybe write it down, you know, then send it, you know? Just help her help you help us, you know what I mean? 'Cause I can't imagine the nonsense you get in there. Anyway, all right, y'all. 'Til next time. This has been Zach. Peace.

Zach chats with Ruchika Tulshyan, award-winning author & CEO and founder of Candour, about equity's place in the future of work. Ruchika explains to us what it is about the diversity, equity and inclusion space that had her commit so much of her life to it, and she ties her breadth of experience back to her childhood in Singapore, where she grew up with people of all different nationalities, cultures and religions. She takes us through her career journey and graciously shares her struggles and triumphs along the way.Connect with Ruchika on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram.Visit her personal website. You can find out more about Candour by clicking here.Check out Ruchika's Harvard Business Review contributor page and get reading!Read the pieces mentioned in the show, If You Don't Know How to Say Someone's Name, Just Ask and Women of Color Get Asked to Do More “Office Housework.” Here’s How They Can Say No.Learn more about the books Superior and So You Want to Talk About Race.Visit our home page!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, everybody? It's Zach with Living Corporate. That's right. I'm back. It's probably Tuesday, or maybe you're listening to this later. It's, like, a Wednesday or a Thursday. I don't know, but we're recording this, and we're recording this, of course, we're having real talk in a corporate world. We center and amplify underrepresented voices in the corporate space, and by corporate space I just mean at work, okay? So this is not, like, an elitist thing, right? So, like, if you work at Wendy's, hey, this is for you too, okay? If you work at Goldman Sachs, this is for you too. And you're probably a white man listening to this, and if so, hey, man, thank you for listening to the podcast. I hope that you learn something from this. But this is for everybody is my point, and we do this, we amplify and center underrepresented experiences, by having underrepresented folks--these are, like, influencers, journalists, activists, educators, public servants, entrepreneurs, executives, recruiters, anybody, really, who is able to really come on and just have some real talk with us. And we've had some amazing guests every single week. I mean, every single week we have some fire--I mean, fire fire fire guests, and this week is no different, okay? 'Cause you know who--I don't even know if y'all know who we have, but I'm up about to tell you. We have Ruchika Tulshyan. Ruchika is a diversity & inclusion strategist, award-winning author and journalist. She is the author of "The Diversity Advantage: Fixing Gender Inequality In The Workplace," a book on strategies for organizations to advance women. Ruchika's company, Candour advises a number of organizations on diversity, equity and inclusion strategy. Ruchika is also the 2019 inaugural distinguished professional-in-residence for Seattle University's communication department. Ruchika, hold on. I've gotta let the air horns fly. How are you doing?Ruchika: I am doing very well, Zach. I'm so excited to be here. [children cheering sfx, both laugh] I love it, I love it. I really do.Zach: We gotta get into it. We gotta get into. You're an author, a journalist, an international speaker, and a CEO of your own consulting firm. Like, what is it about this space, about this diversity, equity and inclusion space, that had you commit so much of your life to it?Ruchika: You know, it wasn't planned at all, Zach. And I grew up outside the United States. I'm from Singapore originally, so I think about food all the time. In fact, right now while I'm talking I'm thinking about "What's my next meal?" But--Zach: What's your favorite food?Ruchika: So, you know, being from Singapore, we eat everything, but probably anything Asian, anything with noodles or rice. I can eat rice for breakfast, lunch, dinner, supper, snack, midnight snack. [laughs] You get the drift.Zach: Yes. No, I do. So do you like pad thai?Ruchika: I'll never order it in the United States 'cause I've had it in Thailand quite a few times now.Zach: Oh, my gosh. What it is like in Thailand?Ruchika: It's so different. It's not sweet. It's just--it's got this beautiful... it's like umami, you know? Like, there's a different flavor altogether. So yeah, I haven't--you know, I tried it once or twice in the U.S. in different cities, and I was like, "Yeah, this is not going to be the thing for me."Zach: You know, it's interesting that you say that, because I remember--so I went to Japan. I was in Japan for a couple weeks last year--well, in 2018--and I remember just eating the food there. It's like--it's crazy that, like, most Americans don't have all of their toes cut off from diabetes with how much sugar we have in our food, right?Ruchika: Yes, yes, yes. And that's--I mean, I could talk about this all day, because, you know, I think about this all the time. And again, I think it's all related, right? And I think even talking about diversity and inclusion, like, really understanding people, finding a common language based on food I think is something that's really special and a very, very important way to connect with people.Zach: You know, I 100% agree. And just one last thing about the food, 'cause you talked about, like, when you have something in the States and then you--for me, 'cause I'm from here and, like, all my people, as far as I can go back, are from here, right? But when I went to Japan I had sushi in Japan. I said, "Wait a second." [laughing] Ruchika: Right? Isn't it completely different?Zach: I said, "What?" I just was--I mean, I had, like, a spiritual moment. It was just like, [blessings come in sfx, both laugh]. I said, "My gosh, my taste buds." Ruchika: Isn't it? And all their food, everything. I mean, if you've had chocolate in Japan, if you've had, like, cookies in Japan, if you've had a cake in Japan, it's like nothing you've ever tasted before, you know?Zach: Yes, and I'm just--and how conditioned I've been eating here, it's like--I'm used to, like, if I eat something, like, a big meal, I'm used to be a little--like, a little sleepy afterwards, right? So I'm like, "Wait, why can I still walk? I can still walk around and, like, think cognitively after eating this meal. [?]" Okay, so I'm sorry. Long segue aside about food--but it's important though. It's a connection to culture. I'm right there with you. Ruchika: So we were talking about diversity and inclusion, right? [both laugh] And how did I get into it? Well, you know, it's connected. You know, it is connected. So I think I was kind of built for this in some way, although it wasn't planned. So growing up in Singapore, I just grew up with people of all different nationalities, all different cultures, all different religions, and it was very much a way of my life, and I moved around quite a bit when I was younger. But what it really exposed me to was the fact that, you know, at the end of the day we're all the same, you know? In many ways we want the same things. We really, really just want to be happy. We want to be heard. We want to feel valued and respected. And so I really grew up with that concept, you know, as a part of my life, just the way it was. You know, my friends were from all over the world, my teachers were from all over the world, and I really grew up with sort of an idealistic, almost Kumbaya sort of belief in the world, and when I moved to the United States about eight years ago, that was a very big shock for me, you know? And I really saw what I still think in some ways is modern-day segregation. You know, I really saw it in full force. There's a stat that three out of four white Americans don't have a single friend of color, and I think that's really concerning, because I grew up in a very different sort of environment, and it really made me see the--it's awesome. I mean, just talking about food, you know? Being exposed to different cultures, different types of food. I feel so lucky, and I actually think people are missing out, and so for a vast majority of Americans, the most diversity they ever experience is actually in the workplace. So, you know, I'm sort of setting myself up to saying that, you know, that was the early part of my life where I really felt, you know--I just had a connection, but I never thought that I would work in this field. I didn't even know this field existed. And what changed for me is I began my career as a journalist and was really happy about it, loved it, then moved to Seattle and sort of transitioned into tech, because that's what everyone does here, and it was the most challenging experience of my life, you know? I really encountered sexism and racism that I just wasn't--you know, I didn't think that it could happen to me. You know, I really grew up with the mindset that you work hard, you work smart, you put your head down and you do your thing--and sure, you know, you raise your hand for opportunities, you're confident, et cetera, but I really didn't think that it would make a difference, you know? My gender, my race, sort of the way I scope, my accent, my name. I didn't think these things mattered, right? I know, so naive of me now that I reflect back on it. And it was a very rude, painful emotional awakening and really kind of created that empathy in me where I said to myself, "This cannot be the way that more than half the population is being treated in the workplace, right? And these are their experiences," and as a journalist I started collecting experiences. I started collecting stories and case studies and even data, right, and research, and it was very clear that something had to change. So I wrote in my book, five years ago, at a time where people said, like, the way that women can, you know, advance in the workplace is they need to lean in, right? That was sort of the narrative of the day, that it was something lacking in women, there was something lacking in people of color, and they had to change, and I'm really glad that we're thinking about this as a systems change that actually doesn't--you know, if you have been stereotyped against, if you have had--you know, if people have this preconceived narrative about who you are and what your potential is in the workplace, it doesn't matter how much you lean in, you know? I mean, like my friend Minda Harts says--you know, CEO of The Memo and has an awesome book out on it, on [?] of women of color at work, Zach. I know you know her. It doesn't matter how hard you lean in if you're a woman of color. You are just not going to be able to get ahead until those systemic biases have been addressed, and so that's what got me into this work, and it's a long-winded answer.Zach: It's long-winded. This is a podcast. [both laugh] But no, you're absolutely right. I'm right there with you, right? And it's interesting, when you talk about, like, systemic versus, like, individual actions--I'll say for me, it's been frustrating, like, just transparently, like, being a black man in majority-white spaces. And I'm in, like--I'm in professional services, right? So consulting, and a lot of times when there's issues that come up when you're dealing with folks or people want to frame you as being "angry" or "frustrated" or whatever the case is, like, whatever trope you want to kind of pull out, right, and then you share those frustrations with, like, other people who are not underrepresented, who are a member of the majority, their feedback or coaching is often, like, things that you need to do and change, but it's like, "Yeah, that's not really the problem." And not to be arrogant. We all have places where we can grow and mature, and emotional intelligence and social intelligence and personal awareness, all of those things are very important. At the same time, like, have the moral courage to actually talk about the systems at play and how there are a lot of things that really aren't our fault. Like, there are things that are being done to us or that we are--you know, it's asymptomatic of larger systemic challenges, and it's tough though. It's tough to have those conversations, especially for folks in the majority. Some of them literally just don't know how. Some of them it's just so uncomfortable they don't--you know, how much of that is real? How much of that is, like, you imagining it, right? But to me I'm just noticing more and more--like, I'm getting increasingly discouraged when you have these conversations, you know, and it's like, "Yo, can we just have a conversation about, like, why is it that this person constantly calls this person or these types of people too opinionated or loud or aggressive or angry or--" Whatever the case is, right? Like, you kind of see it over time. And it's funny that you bring that up about Minda Hart. Shout-out to Minda Hart. What's up, Minda? In fact, hold on. I'ma get some air horns for you and Minda. [both laugh] So what you're speaking to about leaning in, right, and how the concept of leaning in, it was promoted by a white woman with--and I recall there being major articles written and, like, championed about the fact that women of color can't lean in, exactly what you just said, and so I'm curious, when you talk about your focus on gender equity, what does that look like, and how are you introducing intersectionality within the concept of gender equity? Like, how does that practically show up for you in the work that you do?Ruchika: So Zach, let me tell you one of the biggest career mistakes I ever made in my life, and that was to write a book that overall lacks intersectionality. And my students will tell you this, because I make the poor things read my book for one of my classes. And so, you know, every class we have this discussion about, you know, the fact that my book lacks intersectionality as well as that it really treats gender as a binary, right? Which is fully my fault and also a big part of the larger system of publishing and editing, et cetera, where that, you know, concept of intersectionality is still lacking, right? And I don't know--even right now, I don't know if management theory has really caught up to the fact that you really need to have a very intersectional approach when you think about gender equality, right? Like, it is not just about the challenges that white women face. It is really about--if you really want to make change, it is about looking at the intersection between how women of color, both those intersections, experience the workplace, and then especially, from there, expanding that to include other marginalized identities in the workplace. So I will be the first to admit that my book lacks intersectionality, and my hope is, in all the work I've done since and will continue to do, I absolutely cannot--you know, I absolutely cannot take an intersectional approach. That being said, I really think, again, the key to making a difference when it comes to workplace gender equity is having a situation where the voice of the person who is the most marginalized in the room is centered so that the workplace works for all, right? So if the workplace was built by, say, a cis-hetero white man and that's who the workplace is built for, if you do not consider the experience of what, you know, a woman of color, a black woman for example, a trans black woman of color, what's the experience, you know? And who may have, you know, disabilities, cognitive, temporary, physical, whichever--or a combination. If you do not start there, then you're going to continue perpetuating systems which alienate, you know, women, and especially women of color across the board, you know what I mean? So you really need to start with the person who's the most vulnerable who is having really the most challenging experiences in the workplace and then expand from there and think about "What is it that they need to be successful," right? And how can that be incorporated into the fabric of what you do? And that's why part of what I love to do, I love speaking to large corporations. We just talked about someone who works at a large corporation who we both know, but really for me the--you know, I also really love working with smaller teams and startups, because when you can build intersectionality, when you can build inclusion and equity into the very fabric of your organization, right, when you're building it from, like, one to five to ten to twenty employees, that is where you can really make a change, and I have seen that happen personally.Zach: You know what? So first of all, you know what I'm saying, like, while you were talking I didn't want to cut you off, but in my mind when you said--when you, like, owned up and you said, "My book does not address intersectionality," I was like [record scratch sfx]. 'Cause I was like, "Wow, that's incredible, because everybody--" I want everybody to stop. Stop what you're doing. You're driving your car, you're doing whatever you're doing--especially you, diversity, equity and inclusion supposed subject matter experts--stop and see what Ruchika just did, okay? I asked her a question, a direct question about a very important concept if you want to consider yourself a diversity, equity and inclusion expert. You see what she didn't do? She didn't get all defensive and fragile. She outright owned something that she didn't do and her commitment to improve in the future. Some of y'all need to learn from that. I'm talking to you. Yes. If you think I'm talking to you, I'm talking to you, okay? Shout-out to you. That was dope. Ruchika: Thank you.Zach: You're absolutely welcome.Ruchika: And listen, I'm not--you know, I don't at all claim to be perfect by any stretch of the imagination, and I do want to double-down on this point. Like, I've said it before, and I'm gonna say it again. I think growing up both outside this country as well as sort of in some way out of, you know, sort of the Western way of living has meant that I have had to approach DEI in the United States with a tremendous amount of humility and a learning mindset, right? I mean, in the country I grew up in, gay marriage is not legalized, right? I didn't have any friends growing up who were out. The first time I actually came in contact with someone who was openly gay, for example, would have been sometime in my 20s. You know, openly, right? So what I'm trying to say is that you can have been brought up a certain way. The people you love may believe that, for example, having friends of different colors or treating people from different backgrounds equally, maybe you grew up thinking that's not the way life should be, but my point is you can grow. My point is you can learn, my point is that it takes a tremendous amount of humility and learning to get to that place, and you absolutely can get there.Zach: Amen. No, I agree, and I think we're coming into an era where people are just getting, like, less and less tolerant of, like, corporatized nonsense, right? So, like, there's going to need to be, eventually, some sort of reckoning with, like, the systems at play. In fact, we're in a unique position because it's an election year where we almost have kind of, like, a countdown. We know one way or the other there's going to be an--like, there's going to be another explosion, and there are going to be more and more people supposedly very surprised all over again, but I think--I also think that just, like, societally and generationally, like, we also have folks and younger folks who weren't able to vote who saw the nonsense last time but weren't in the same position who are in a different position this time. So I just think that the--I think that the dialogue is going to still be just as present if not more present than it was in 2016, so the imperative to really--like, to your point about humility and being willing to learn, centering the most vulnerable and continuing to seek to grow and develop yourself in this space is important, because I just don't think that some of the trends that I saw in this, like, environment over the last decade I don't think is gonna be sustainable this upcoming decade.Ruchika: It isn't. And you know, Zach, while you were talking I was thinking of this idea. You know, coming to this country as an immigrant, my experience was definitely steeped in and very much the way that I was told that I would be successful in this country was to uphold white supremacy, right? And I have to acknowledge that for us to really make a change, we need to address anti-blackness in a lot of immigrant communities, including the ones I'm part of, south Asian primarily. And I think it's very important to really drill down into that a little bit more, you know? And if we do want to see a change, even in the workplace, you know, I work with tech companies, and there's a lot of, like, "Oh, we don't have a problem with people of color. Like, there are a lot of Asians doing really well in our tech company." I've had leaders write to me--I used to write a column for a supplement of the Seattle Times, and I had people all the time from large tech companies being like, "Oh, but our CEO is a person of color." "Oh, but our," you know, whatever it is, you know, "Our top people are people of color," and I really had to stop and say, "Listen, it's not about people who are already represented in the workforce. If you really want to make a change, can you tell me how many black people are leading at this company? Can you tell me how many black [?] people [?]?"Zach: Ooooooooh, goodness gracious, Ruchika. What you talking about? [laughs]Ruchika: You know, how many indigenous women, for example, are [?] at your company? Then let's talk about equity.Zach: Well, 'cause we're not a monolith. And you're absolutely right, right? There's this idea--and there's terms that we use, and, you know, this is the thing. Living Corporate is a positive space, you know? If we make any, like, direct statement--we have real talk, but, like, we're not--you know, we're not trying to be overly mad all the time, right? [both laugh] As hard as it is, but, like, one thing that grinds my gears is, like, people using the term "people of color" when we're really talking about specific underrepresented groups. Like, let's actually name and give those groups the respect--like, because if you say black people, that's already a very complex group. So, like, let's at least say--if we're talking about black people, let's just say black people. If we're talking about south Asians, let's say south Asians. But, like, when we say people of color, it's like--you know, I don't know if you have it, but every black person who's listening to this podcast knows what I'm talking about. You have a junk drawer in your house? It has, like, nails and, like, batteries and everything in there, right? Ketchup packets. And that's really what "people of color" is, it's just a junk drawer term. We're just gonna throw--if you're not eggshell white you're a person of color, right? And it's like, how do we break out of that? And so let me ask you this then. When you ask those follow-up questions and you start asking them to be specific, you know, and you ask, like, "Well, how many of this particular group do you have?" Then what does the conversation--what does that shift look like in conversation?Ruchika: Most people are tremendously uncomfortable and don't want to engage, right? And that's also--I'm happy to get off this topic because then I can talk all day, but part of it is the terminology and the language is flawed. In the same way "people of color" is flawed, so is "Asians." [?] Indians and Indian-Americans, you know, capture some of the highest income groups in this country, but in the same category of south Asians--just if you look at the south Asian subcontinent--[Bangladeshi?] immigrants have the lowest rates of poverty, some of the lowest rates of poverty in this country. So what I'm saying is already the terminology that we use to describe, you know, race is extremely flawed. And by the way, I'd like to shout-out to a book that I'm reading that I love already. It's called Superior by Angela Saini. She's a British science journalist. I'm actually part of the team bringing her out to Seattle to speak at our university here. And I just love this book, because it really dives into how race science came about and the very flawed logic that is being used to show that there are differences biologically between the races--which, by the way, she argues very, very well, using tons and tons of data and research to show that that's absolutely not true, [that?] race is a social categorization and we absolutely must acknowledge the experience of different people socially because of, you know, these categorizations. Biologically, there really aren't that many differences. And so I think my point--you know, I'm gonna go off on a tangent here, but people don't want to engage because we are so comfortable with this idea, "Oh, no. Let's not talk about race." That's a very interesting thing that I've really noticed here in the United States. In fact, I did some of my tertiary education in the United Kingdom, and then I, as I mentioned, grew up in Singapore and moved around quite a bit. What I found is that really in the United States, people don't want to talk about race, and as a result of not talking about race, they uphold racism, you know? It's just--it's baffling to me, it really is, and I think if you can't address it--and, you know, I've now moved to Seattle, which is really--you know, another shout-out, my friend Ijeoma Oluo's book So You Want to Talk About Race. Excellent book. I highly recommend it to every single person out there. Amazing. I make my class read it every year, and they're so grateful. After my boring book they go to her book and they're so grateful. You should see the evaluation papers. They're like, "[?] boring." [laughs] But my point is without us really naming and owning some of the huge systemic barriers we've had in the workplace, I think we're just gonna let the status quo run, and I think you have to be brave enough to get super uncomfortable and address those challenges.Zach: You know, and it's interesting you say that, right? And of course I agree. It leads me to the next question I have, which is recently Goldman Sachs announced that they won't be taking companies public without at least one diverse board member, and then they went on to emphasize gender diversity. My first question is do you think that this is substantive, and then two, or Part B to that, do you believe black and brown men are largely excluded from DEI initiatives, and if so, why?Ruchika: Okay, so firstly do I think that it's substantive? I don't think so, not at all. I think actually the word diverse--like, I think "diverse board member" already is just problematic. And here's another shout-out. You know, Aubrey Blanche talks about how you cannot--the word "diverse person" is actually problematic. Like, there's no such thing as a diverse person, right? [?] a white person is diverse, right? So diverse itself, you know, like, back to language, like, name what you mean, and what you mean here is "underrepresented," right? Like, that's what Goldman Sachs meant by one diverse board member. What they meant was underrepresented or underestimated. [?], but underestimated board member is what they were talking about, right? So already that training is problematic. And I think if you emphasize gender diversity, I really think you're missing the boat, right? Are female founders underrepresented and underestimated? Absolutely, right? But here's real talk. In the Fortune 500, 19% of the C-Suite is made up of white women. Only 4% is made up of women of color, right? So if you're really talking about systemic change, if you're talking about not trying to go through the same systems that are already in place, then you really have to look at race. Without that intersectionality, without actually naming that not only do we mean one board member from a underrepresented background in terms of gender but also race, you're just really perpetuating the problem, right? So I think that--I just think they didn't go far enough. I like the idea. I like what they're trying to say. And we also know that in many, many cases, white women do perpetuate similar systems of patriarchy, right? If you talk to any woman of color in the world, she has a story for you about that.Zach: It's so interesting that you say that, right? Because I really want to talk about the role that white women play in upholding--not only upholding white supremacy, but also ironically--or unironically--patriarchy as well, right? And so it's like, what--I think there's more research and work to be done, and/or I'd love to just bring on more folks to just really deep dive into that subject, because I think it's worth discussing. I think that it's--as a black, straight man, I benefit from patriarchy, and I have my own privileges. I do believe that white women sit in a very unique position in America, or just in the world in general, in that they are an oppressed group but also heavily benefit from white supremacy, and so it's just curious. And you're absolutely right, I've talked to plenty of women, black and brown women, who have their own experiences and frustrations, and I've seen them as well. I've seen oppression in action at work. But I do find it to be an underdiscussed topic. I know that there are articles and things out there. I still just think there's many more conversations we could have around it. I'm curious as to what's gonna need to happen for us to, like, just more unabashedly address the topic head on though.Ruchika: Absolutely, and I think it's, again, that being comfortable with getting really uncomfortable, because I think so much of, again, sort of the leftover of workplaces that were designed for and have been sort of continued on by white men, I think it's very much like you don't talk politics at work, you don't--you don't bring your sort of real, authentic self to work, and we know that that's changing with the next generation. I did want to answer your question about black and brown men largely being excluded from DEI initiatives. I do think so. I think black and brown men are--I think they do face some very specific and very, very difficult challenges. From a research standpoint, they--you know, we know research can always be flawed, but McKinsey's Women in the Workplace study, their report--I in fact have it in front of me--shows that, at entry-level, men of color represent 16% of entry-level jobs in corporations, and when it comes to the C-Suite, that's down to 9%, where with women of color it's 17% at entry-level and 4% in the C-Suite. So we know that, you know, while there's a huge underrepresentation of men of color, the percentage of underrepresentation of women of color relative to how many actually enter the workforce is really stark, right? Like, a quarter versus closer to half. So my point here is I think when you look at the data, you know, I can see why perhaps the experiences of men of color are sometimes left out and excluded from DEI initiatives. I do think it's a very, very important part of--again, if you really want to make substantial change, you do have to include them. The only other way, again academically, I've looked at this is what I've found is that when you address the two historically most underestimated identities in the workplace, right, or historically lower-status identities--and that's gender and race, so women of color--that's where you can really make a big difference, because if you look at white women, they benefit from, you know, one high status, the [?] of being white, but one low status, and for men of color it's patriarchy. You benefit from it. So I think there's this--I think it's a very delicate dance, but do I think we should build corporate diversity initiatives without including the experience of men of color? Absolutely not. I think again you will miss out, and again you're gonna leave things out that really are crucial to making sustainable change.Zach: So you speak about change and you talk about, like, the future. You know, it's curious, 'cause as millennials--as we've entered the workforce, you know, there was this collective anticipation from thought leaders around "Okay, yo, watch out, 'cause millennials about to shake it up. We about to cause a ruckus, you know? It's about to be crazy over here," and there was a lot of that talk. I'm curious, you know, how have you seen that in the work that you do practically, the infusion of the millennial generation, and then what, if any, shifts do you anticipate as Generation Z comes into the workforce in the next decade?Ruchika: You know, I don't really 100% know how to answer this honestly. I mean, I teach students who are at the sort of cusp of millennial, Gen Z, and it's really amazing to see, you know? They're very, very different, at least in the sense of being at least aware of some of the huge problems we see in the world today. I mean, they're the people most impacted by climate change, for example. And I do see that there is a very early understanding of social justice and why this is important, and that really gives me a lot of hope, right? You know, when I taught five years ago, my students weren't that socially justice-minded in the way that they are right now. So already in five years I'm starting to see a huge change. At the same time, I think, again, they're inheriting systems that were built with patriarchy and white supremacy at the core of them. So what's interesting and exciting to see is many reject that, and they're starting their own businesses, they're doing their own thing, they're in their own side hustles and their side gigs, and that's really interesting, and that's a very important part of the change of the future of work. At the same time, I think without addressing those systems of oppression, you are still gonna find many millennials who will continue to co-opt into them for many reasons, right? I mean, this is the generation that's the most financially insecure in close to a century, and they're really, really struggling with a lot of the mistakes that the generations before them made, and so I think that there's no perfect answer for this. I think what I will say is that it's exciting to see at least the data showing that millennials and Gen Z really care deeply about, you know, working in a place where they can live out their values, and they would actually--a significant portion of them would actually rather take lower pay than work for a place where their values don't align, and that's really exciting. That is a very different way of looking in the workplace. And again, maybe sometimes--I mean, I'm a millennial. Maybe I wouldn't be doing the work I'm doing if I was not a millennial, right? Like, maybe I would have had that terrible experience in tech and I would have been like, "Well, you know, this is just the way that it is, and life's like that, and I need to continue." And I just want to admit that there's tremendous privilege in me being able to do that. I mean, I talk to immigrant women whose ability to live in this country is tied to working for a job no matter how toxic it is, right? I talk to many, many, many people who have had to continue working in workplaces that were terrible for their mental health, terrible for their health in general, and they just had to, right? For a variety of financial reasons, health insurance, et cetera. So I do want to acknowledge that.Zach: So let's do this. Let's talk a little bit about you, right? You have so much going on, and so I just want to make sure that we really give you space for you to share what you're excited about this year and just what you're focused on.Ruchika: Thank you. Indeed, I do a lot. I don't like to talk about myself, but I will say my goal for myself this year is to do a lot more speaking based on some of the topics that I care about, and, you know, it's really inspirational when I'm able to address a room of people, and I've had people come up to me and say, "Thank you so much. This is the first time our leader has heard about unconscious bias and the experience of women of color," or "This is the first time we've actually had language around what diversity, equity and inclusion means, and thank you for saying the things that you've said." So I think part of my goal for this year is just to continue being a very vocal advocate for women of color, for people of color in the workplace, keeping an intersectional lens when it comes to, you know, diversity efforts. So that's something I definitely want to do. I do write for Harvard Business Review, and my hope is to do a lot more work for them as the year comes along. I would like to share one article with you, Zach. Actually there are two. One that I'm really, really proud of is one I wrote very recently about why it's important to pronounce people's name correctly. I know I have a challenging name and an unfamiliar name in this country, and it really makes all the difference if you think about inclusion, and as time goes on this absolutely includes people's pronouns and other sort of very subtle ways of making sure that you include people, and one of the easiest ways is to make an effort to get their name right. And so it sounds so simple, and it makes all the difference, because my name, 9 out of 10 times, is mispronounced. Like, even when I pronounce it correctly for people, they don't want to listen, and I think that is something that really needs to change. So there's that. The other is I really hope to continue writing about and speaking about topics that, like, generally we don't easily talk about, and for me one of those is talking about office housework. So a couple of years ago I wrote an article about how women of color are asked to do more office housework, right? So this means all the non-glamorous work. It can be actually, you know, correlated to housework, like, you know, ordering lunch, doing the dishes, whatever it is, tidying up after meetings, but it also relates to the non-glamorous work at work, you know, like taking meeting notes or sitting on committees that don't lead to promotion or mentoring the interns, for example. Like, i t's not gonna impact your performance review, and so I really want to continue shedding light on these topics that people generally don't talk about, but they do actually make a huge difference when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion. Zach: Man, shout-out to you, Ruchika. This has been super dope. I'm so excited. I love your work, I love your writing. We're gonna make sure we have all of your information in the show notes, including the books that you referenced, and then, like, let's just make sure--you know, you're a friend of the show. Like, you're welcome back at any time. So if you have anything you want to plug or you want to promote, you come here. We got you, okay? I'm serious, we got you. Let's see here. Before we let you go, any parting words you have for us, for the folks listening in, for the--so we call... so did you watch The Avengers?Ruchika: You know, I did not.Zach: Okay. All right, so--Ruchika: In my defense, I have a 3-year-old, and life is very full. [laughs]Zach: No, super respect. I definitely get it. My wife and I are welcoming our first kid.Ruchika: Oh, congratulations.Zach: Thank you very much. I was gonna make a reference. So, like, on Living Corporate, we call aspiring allies Buckys, because in The Avengers movie, Ruchika, Captain America had a friend, and his name was Bucky Barnes. But, see, Bucky Barnes got hurt, and he had to get some medical help, but his medical problems were so complex they had to actually send him to Wakanda, which is this fictionalized African nation--Ruchika: I know Wakanda. [laughs]Zach: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so--[laughs] and so then he goes to Wakanda, and they end up calling Bucky "The White Wolf," you see what I'm saying? Because he's, like, a friend of the Wakandans. So, you know, it's a long way of saying we have a lot of Buckys listening in, aspiring allies, and I'm just curious if you have any words for them, for the Wakandans listening in, and for everybody in-between.Ruchika: Ooh, wow. Okay, that is such a big sort of closing. [Zach laughs] So listen, I'll start first with the Buckys. I think here's the deal. You know, I think it's always--it's easy to, like, talk and believe that your frame of reference and your narrative is the most important or the most significant, and I think what we need to really start doing is to step back and listen. Like, literally listen and open up your networks and open up sort of your privilege and open up your world for people who haven't had that experience, right? And what I mean is, like, for example, I'm a small business owner. Buy from me. Don't come to me and say, "Oh, you're doing great things. I'm so proud of you." Buy from me. Refer me, you know? [cha-ching sfx] Yeah, literally. Like, it's literally that, you know? And if someone's doing great work at your company and, you know, you're a white man with a lot of influence, recommend the woman of color. "Hey, you know who should run this meeting? This person who never gets to do that," you know what I mean? So for me it's about moving away from being a passive ally into an active accomplice, and I've heard this framing from a few different people. And so it's really about being very active. So that's my thoughts about, you know, Buckys. When it comes to people of color, when it comes to people who have been underestimatd, I had an experience last week where I was underrepresented. It was really hard. It really, really hurt. I think in those moments you really need to find your people. Like, you need to find your people. And they can be Buckys or they can be fellow Wakandans, but you need to find your people that you can really come clean with, that you can sit down and be like, "Hey, this horrible thing happened to me. Tell me I'm not crazy," because for a long time, especially everything that actually led me to this moment, has been me pretending like, "No, everything's great. I'm fine. Yeah, some moments are tough, but otherwise I'm doing great. I'm working super hard." And I think we forget, like, we need those mental health checks. We need people who we can rely on, who can navigate some of the really, really hard stuff you have to navigate when you are underestimated at work. Does that work? Does that help? [laughs]Zach: Does that work? Let me tell you something, you're dropping mad bombs. [Flex bomb sfx] That's incredible. Man, no, absolutely it works. Thank you so much, Ruchika. Now, look, you were talking about the importance of pronouncing someone's name, and let me just say as an example, it is very important, y'all, and my country self--and I know some of y'all may think I come from Connecticut, but no, I'm actually from Georgia. Like, I'm very country, and--Ruchika: I love Georgia. I lived there for a while.Zach: I appreciate that, and yes, Georgia is a dope place. I'm from Rome, Georgia. Shout-out Rome, Georgia, and then shout-out to Mississippi 'cause that's where I'm from by way of 'cause that's where all my people are from. But look, you want to take the time, y'all, and really slow down and make sure you can--and ask. Like, people will always respect and appreciate you trying to ask and seek as opposed to being like, "What's your name? I'ma just call you Bob." Like, "No, don't call me Bob. That's not my name," right? Like, "My parents gave me this name. This name carries weight and meaning and history and culture, and it's part of who I am as a human being that exists on this plane of existence with you, so please take the time to understand how to pronounce my name." So with that said, Ruchika Tulshyan...Ruchika: Thank you very much.Zach: Thank you very much. No, you were a beast. This has been great. Very thankful to have you on the Living Corporate podcast. That does it for us, y'all. You know where to check us out. We're on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram @LivingCorporate. We're on all the different DSPs, so we got Spotify, Apple... I don't think we're on TIDAL. Maybe. I don't know. Holla at me, Hov. "It's ya boy!" I don't know. But we're on all the other DSPs, okay? So if you Google Living Corporate we will pop up, okay? You know, if you want to make sure--if you're a browser person, you're not really trying to take any risks, you know, type in www.livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.us, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com, but we don't have livingcorporate.com, okay? Australia has livingcorporate.com. The day that we're able to wrest livingcorporate.com from Australia is the day that we have arrived, okay? Ruchika: Wow. So you went out there and you got all of those domains?Zach: We've got all the domains.Ruchika: Wow. That is really--look, that takes a lot of work. I mean, obviously, you know, I'm, like, totally in awe, but this is, like, double the awe. That means you're really serious about this.Zach: Oh, we're not playing. So if you type in Living Corporate dot anything else we will come up, it's just that livingcorporate.com--so Australia, it's, like, this corporate housing website thing. It's really strange. And I've been, like, doing my work. I've been doing my Googles, my research, trying to figure out "How can I get this domain?" But you know, Australia's a big place. Living Corporate, we're only--you know, we're just one little company, but we're gonna get it though one day. Anyway, the point is we're all over. If you want to send us a listener letter, look, DMs are wide open. We are not elitists. You don't have to follow us, and we don't have to follow you, for you to DM us. Just hit us up, baby. We'll respond. Ruchika: But you should follow Living Corporate because their podcasts are so incredible, and really, if you care about, you know, making real change and you want to hear from people who are out there who are really making change, between all of you and your guests, I mean, I learn something every single episode.Zach: [straight up sfx] You hear that? Did you hear what Ruchika Tulshyan said? Come on, now. Goodness, gracious, the love is real. All right, y'all. Ruchika: I mean it.Zach: And I feel it, so thank you. Y'all, this has been Zach. You've been talking to Ruchika Tulshyan, speaker, innovator, educator...Ruchika: All the things. [laughs]Zach: All the things, you know what I'm saying? Give her all the things. Don't play, okay? And make sure, Harvard Business Review, if y'all listen to this, you know... don't play. She's dropping that heat.Ruchika: Hey, this is a very important part of this whole thing, okay? It's really important to spread the love and to, what I say, you know--you know, this is not a case of, like, sending the elevator back down, which is super important, especially, like--I say this a lot when I talk to a room full of women, but it's really important to be able to share the love and, like, be real, and be real in the sense like, "I need this. Can you help me get there?" And I think that's one thing that, if you've been underestimated at work, you've been told for so long that, you know, you don't matter or what you're doing isn't important enough, then it becomes hard to ask for help, right? I mean, all of the lean in narrative is about "Oh, you need to ask," but you have always been shot down or you have been shot down 9 out of 10 times, then of course you're gonna have bloody imposter syndrome, you know? Zach: Oh, my gosh. Yo, we gotta--okay, so do we need to have you back, like, for a variety of reasons, but certainly to talk about, like, how to ask for help and just, like, managing the emotional labor of asking for help over and over and over again, 'cause you're absolutely right. I mean, now, look, my dad, he's a salesman. Like, that's really who he is, and so I get it from him. Like, I'll shoot. Like, I'll shoot over and over and over again, but it doesn't change the fact that at the end I'm exhausted, and it's defeating to hear "no" all the time or to be undermined or for you to be told no, and then someone else comes along and asks for help and basically they end up doing a watered-down version of what you wanted help to do, you know what I mean? Like, that is... ugh, anyway. Goodness, y'all. Look, Ruchika got us over here about to have a whole new podcast in the wrap-up section of the show, but that's okay, y'all. Look, you've been listening to Living Corporate. Make sure you check us out. Check out the show notes. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.Ruchika: And I'll be back. [laughs]Zach: And she'll be back. [laughs]

Zach welcomes Dr. Oni Blackstock, the assistant commissioner for the Bureau of HIV/AIDS Prevention and Control for the NYC Health Department, to the podcast to discuss a wide variety of topics, ranging from her unique career journey to dismantling white supremacist constructs, and she graciously offers a couple points of recommendation regarding how to get started when it comes to advocating for yourself to get the health-related help that you may need at work.Connect with Dr. Blackstock on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram!Visit Living-Corporate.com.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, man, you know what we do. It's 2020. You know, fresh vision. You know, we're out here making moves, having conversations with movers and shakers, influencers, educators, public servants... what else? Who else? Executives, recruiters, entertainers. You know what I'm saying? Anybody who's willing to have an authentic conversation centering and amplifying underrepresented voices at work, and today, you know, I'm really excited about this particular interview. And I say that every time, but, like, I mean it every single time, even though I say it, like, over and over, but I really do mean it. And so I'm really excited. This particular episode we have Dr. Oni Blackstock. Dr. Blackstock, how are you doing? What's going on? Oni: I'm good. Thanks so much for having me.Zach: Thank you so much for joining us. Now, look, what I would like to do--'cause see, what I sometimes do, in the past I would give this, like, kind of, like, generic--I don't want to say generic, but I would, like, read off an intro, almost like a late-night show, and then I'd go in and I'd ask people to introduce themselves again. It seems kind of redundant, so what I want to do this time is just give you space and, for those of us who don't know you, just give you some space to talk a little bit about yourself.Oni: Okay, great. So again, I'm Oni Blackstock. I'm a primary care physician and HIV specialist. I also spent about the past 10 years conducting HIV research, but I now lead the Bureau of HIV at the New York City Health Department, meaning I oversee our city's response to ending the HIV epidemic. I'm originally from Brooklyn, New York. Parents, my dad is an immigrant from Jamaica, and my mom is Brooklyn-born and bred. And I have a twin sister, Dr. Uche Blackstock, and, you know, we're very much inspired by our parents to really meld medicine and public health with activism and advocacy, and so I get to do that in my current role leading the Bureau of HIV here in New York City.Zach: Okay. So first of all, incredible background, incredible legacy, and shout-out to the Blackstocks, the family, and shout-out to your sister of course as well. So I know, you know, the background being Jamaican--now, you know we do air horns. Now, let me ask you this. I've asked past Jamaican guests, but it is offensive or culturally appropriative that we also use air horns on our podcast?Oni: No, not at all. It's great. It's about the diaspora. Zach: Okay, cool, 'cause I gotta let 'em fly for you. Let me just drop 'em right here. [air horns sfx] Okay, 'cause I'm just very excited and thankful that you're here. Now, let's talk a little bit more about your background, right? So you talk about your focus being HIV and that particular illness. What was it about that work that drew you in particularly?Oni: Yeah. So I was in medical school when I feel like I quote-unquote first discovered HIV, and that was actually when I was doing global health work. So I had traveled to Ghana and West Africa, as well as South Africa, to do HIV-related research, and when I came back I did a rotation as a medical student back in New York City and saw that we had black people, Latino people, dealing with many of the same sort of medical-related issues, and even just sort of socio-structural issues, as I did when I was in Ghana and South Africa, and became very interested in our domestic HIV epidemic, and so I ended up doing my residency, which is the training that you do after medical school, in the Bronx at Montefiore Medical Center, where again I was seeing young black and brown people dying of, like, advanced AIDS, which was something I was really surprised and I think maybe people didn't realize was stlil happening in New York City. And I think what I in particular--what draws me to HIV is that it's really--it's not just an interesting bio-medical condition, but it's also, like, a social condition, and it's really an epidemic of not behavior, but an epidemic of inequality. So it's a confluence of lots of isms and lots of phobias, and you put all of those together and you sort of get HIV and you see the communities that are most impacted.Zach: And, you know, it's really interesting, this conversation particularly, because you're in a position where you're providing awareness and research and thought leadership and care for underrepresented, underserved populations--and often times stigmatized and just oppressed populations--while also being an intersectional member of a variety of underrepresented and oppressed populations and identity groups. Can you talk about, like, what that experience, that compounded experience, is like for you? Like, being in this space, being who you are?Oni: Right. Yeah, so I think what has driven me to do this work is because I'm from many of the different communities that are impacted by HIV. So I think sometimes for people who do this work it's maybe about careerism or they find it intellectually interesting, but for me it's really about helping my people and my community. So yeah, I mean, I think having the different identities, being a cisgender black woman, being someone who's queer and being at the intersection at these different marginalized identities gives me a different appreciation and understanding of what the factors are that folks are dealing with out in the community, and also the position. You know, even when we're designing, for instance, social marketing campaigns, like, I can say--you know, I'm able to give my input and--you know, we had a campaign, for instance, that was focused on pre-exposure prophylaxis, or PrEP. It's a once-a-day pill that people who are HIV-negative can take to stay HIV-negative. We did one for a focus on cisgender and transgender women, women of all different backgrounds, but what I did notice that I think most other people didn't notice is that all of the women were very, like, fem-presenting, and so, you know, I was like, "In the future when we do this work, we might want to have folks who may be non-conforming in their appearance." You know, just have different folks who may identify as women but have a different gender expression. And so I think, like, just sort of that awareness of understanding the different needs that may be out there of having these different perspectives is something that I think I can bring to this role and I think is, you know, really important, because the reality is that in many cities we don't have people who are leading this type of work who are reflective of the communities that are most impacted.Zach: You know, that's just a really good point. It's interesting because, you know, even as we talk about, like, representation and diversity in our marketing and, like, presentation, it's interesting how colorism and patriarchy still, like, sneak in to those spaces too, right? So, like, if you have--like, if you're presenting as a woman, often times it is going to be someone who is, like, traditionally fem or lighter-skinned or with hair that is a certain texture. Like, there's still, like, this template, right? That individuals are going to--that we either consciously or subconsciously seek to, like, place people in. Even when you see, like, people in positions of authority or any type of subject matter expertise in the space, you end up--I don't know. Again, they fit certain templates to me, and that leads me to another question though. Kind of starting at the top. So your lived experience brings a certain level of empathy along with your actual academic expertise. May I ask, are there ever moments or times where you believe that sometimes your lived experience or the passion that comes with that lived experience is almost counted against you because you lack a certain level of [laughs] intellectual objectivity that maybe white individuals or just folks who are not necessarily identifying these particular identity groups, that they can relate to?Oni: Well, I think--right, so that idea of, like, objectivity... I mean, it's, like, a construct. It's, like, a white supremacist construct, because we all come with our own perspectives and backgrounds. So it's sort of, like, a fallacy, I think, but yeah, I think that might happen. I think I am also fortunate, or maybe some might say unfortunate, but, you know, I did get my college degree at Harvard undergrad. I was a computer science major and I was pre-med. I went to Harvard Medical School. I got my Master's in Health Sciences from Yale's School of Medicine. So I have, like, sort of these bonafides that are sort of respected more by white culture, the dominant culture, which I feel like gives me quote-unquote credibility among some of these folks, if that makes any sense. So I feel like that somehow, like, helps to open doors in a different way, and then obviously having--you know, and sometimes just even having an MD, people make assumptions, and sometimes you can use those to your benefit, which is helpful. But, you know, at the same time, it does feel--it's kind of cringe-worthy and kind of not the best feeling to be benefitting from these same systems which also act to, like, oppress us as well, so... [?]Zach: Well, it's complex and nuanced. I'm just curious about that, because as I continue to get into just this work, any time you talk about, like, underserved folks or, like, doing work that seeks to push for equity in certain spaces, there seems to be, like, this underlying kind of attitude sometimes, so I was just curious about that. You know, you just spoke about--you used one of the buzzwords that triggers a lot of fragility in today's society, white supremacy. I'm curious, you know, on Living Corporate we've discussed the concept of decolonization, and one of the ways that we've seen colonization demonstrated is in language. Can we talk a little bit about medical terms that, intentionally or unintentionally, undermine the reality and complexity of systemic racism and other isms and various forms of oppression?Oni: Sure. Okay, so I think any term that, like, focuses the issue on the individual as opposed to, like, the structures and systems that drive risk and disease and poor health and poor well-being, so--I mean, for me, I mean, there's [?]--I actually tweeted about this recently. So, you know, terms like someone being a "medically-complex patient" or someone being high-risk or non-compliant really is about--you know, white supremacist culture puts the onus and responsibility on the individual and doesn't--you know, it ignores, like, completely, the context in which people are making decisions and choices. And so, you know, these are--you know, we're trying to, like, move away, at least at the Health Department, my bureau, from some of these terms, which are victim-blaming and lack recognition for these broader systems that increase risk for individuals.Zach: And I'm curious about that. Like, what does it look like to drive those conversations and to have folks say, like, "Stop. Let's take a step back and actually look at the systems that are impacting these individuals." Like, what does that look like? How do you broach those topics?Oni: Yeah. So I think one of the cool things here, at least the New York City Health Department, is the former health commissioner--her name is Dr. Mary Bassett. She's a black woman, and she started a whole initiative called Race to Justice, which was sort of an effort to understand and recognize the impact on racism on public health and health outcomes, and so by someone in her position sort of normalizing the conversations around racism really sort of opened the door for a lot of the work that I'm doing in my bureau with the staff here. So for instance, we received millions of dollars in funding from the federal government and from the city government that we then bid out in a competitive process to clinics and other community-based organizations to provide HIV prevention treatment services, and we were looking at this process and, you know, seeing that the same sort of large organizations that are typically not run by folks who look like the folks who are impacted tended to get a lot of the contracts. And so the great thing about being able to lead a bureau, lead an organization, is that we made sure that--we started looking at the process and figuring out "What are the ways that we could make this process more equitable?" But what we also did is in our request for a proposal we called out these different systems of oppression. You know, many times--before I came here, like, a lot of the requests for proposals would say things like "poverty" and "food insecurity," and it's like, "But what are the things that drive those things?" Right? Like, we need to call them out, and if we call them out, the organizations that we fund will know that these are issues that we are thinking about, and we're thinking explicitly about equity in this work, and so I made sure that in our request for a proposal that we use this language, that we don't just say people of color, that we say specifically the groups that are impacted. We say black and Latinx people. Like, you know, it's just calling it out and being really explicit and really putting it out there so that it becomes normalized and really part of the work that we do.Zach: And it's interesting, because I've noticed over the past--I would say since, I don't know, since... so over the past, like, decade or so. 'Cause I'm 30, so I've been working for about 9 or 10 years, right? So as I just kind of come into adulthood, just looking around, looking at the language that people use when it comes to just, like, systems of injustice or inequity, it's almost like they just--we use language that is... like things just happened. It's like we don't talk about how things are connected at all. I think I was reading some story about a young man who had a mistaken identity, and it said "A teen was hospitalized after being mis-identified by police." Well, no. He wasn't hospitalized because he was mis-identified by police. He was hospitalized because he was beaten by the police because he mis-identified him. It's almost like we take out the action or the accountability in the language and framing that we place. So let's do this. As you know, since the publication of Healthy People 2020, it's been confirmed that stress is one of the primary drivers of racial and socio-economic health disparities. Can we talk a little bit about the practical impacts of chronic stress for black and brown folks and how it shows up when it's under-treated? And then, you know, as you talk through a bit about what that looks like, I guess my Part B to that question is what are things that black and brown folks should be looking out for regarding their own stress and what ways can they advocate for themselves as patients?Oni: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so obviously these are, like, very weighty, big issues. You know, I think stress has, you know, wide-ranging impacts on our overall health and well-being. You know, when we are exposed to stress, or just the stress of being a black or brown person in this country--you know, I don't know if folks realize this, but it leads to, obviously, an elevation in [stress?] hormones like cortisol and nor-epinephrine and epinephrine, and those have, like, very harmful effects on the body. And so we can think about mental health, so, you know, depression and anxiety, and I have to--full disclosure, I myself am dealing with depression and anxiety, and I think a lot of it is attributed to really the chronic stress that we face, I think particularly in some of these professional work environments where we are held to very different standards than other people, and so having, you know, a support network and having a spiritual practice--which is something that I really want to develop more--are ways to really I think counteract these--you know, and the impact on the quality of sleep that we have, our metabolism, cardiovascular risk. You know, chronic stress predisposes us to a wide range of medical conditions, so yeah. So I think when we see--you know, a lot of the disparities or inequities that we see, you know, are driven by, you know, the impact of, you know, racism, and then it sometimes has direct, you know, effects on us, in terms of, like, the violence that, you know, is committed against us by police, but then also some of these indirect effects of dealing with chronic stress and the impact that it has on our bodies and minds.Zach: And I think--so I'll speak for myself in this example. I'm an example of this, right? Like, just kind of, like, moving and shaking in these spaces, finally taking a second to breathe and I'm looking back and I'm like, "Wait, I can't sleep. I'm having, like, auditory hallucinations. I'm, like, crying for no reason. Like, I feel sick." You know, there's all these different issues that have, like, you know, over time just been so untreated, and like, so, finally just now starting to get help for that. I'm curious though, what points of recommendation would you have for folks who are at the very beginning of this? Like, and how--what would you say to them who are just kind of looking to get started and kind of advocating for themselves to get the help that they need?Oni: Right. So I think, you know, obviously having a support network obviously is key, and so that people who are close to you, who you can speak to about, you know, the various stressors that you may have at work, in particular if you may be one of a few black people, or even if you aren't one of a few black or brown people. You know, our experiences in the workplace are very different from other people's. So definitely having a support network, and I think also not waiting for people to check in on you, but also to the extent that you can sharing with, like, your family and loved ones, particularly those who will be helpful, like, how you are feeling, 'cause I think sometimes, for many of us, we are very high-functioning, and so when you--you may be depressed, feeling depression and anxiety, but you are, like, highly productive. You're getting things done. You have a family. You have a great job. But, you know, you still need support, and it may not be, like, overtly obvious to your family. So I think, to the extent that we can, reaching out when we can. Obviously, you know, for instance, depression can sometimes impact people's ability to motivate and to be able to reach out to people, so obviously then we have to check on each other. I think also something that I have been increasingly learning is having some sort of, like, spiritual practice or some way of, like, grounding yourself, whether it's yoga or meditation or prayer. Whatever it is or whoever you pray to, having that be a regular part of your day and of your practice is I think incredibly important, because, like, you know, it's very hard to change these systems, and for the most part we have ourselves and we have our support networks. And so those are some of the recommendations that I would have. And I think also mentorship. If folks have mentors who, you know, have been in similar fields, or maybe even in a different field but can provide guidance and support, that makes a huge, huge difference. And also peer mentors as well, having folks who may be going through similar experiences as you where you can kind of commune and, like, come together and commiserate and also be helpful.Zach: You know, it's interesting. So you talked a little bit about your twin sister Dr. Uche Blackstock, and recently she published an article titled "Why Black Doctors Like Me Are Leaving Faculty Positions In Academic Medical Centers," and in the piece, towards the end of it, she says, "Academic medical centers must begin to recognize and rectify the historical and current impact of racism on the health care workforce. Their leaders should listen actively and respond accordingly to the concerns of black faculty members and students, adopt an anti-racist philosophy, and, through a lens of racial equity, intentionally commit the time, effort and resources required to dismantle the structural racism and white supremacy embedded in their current institutional cultures." Now, your work--again, we've been talking about it this entire conversation--is to combat the attitudes and white supremacist institutions that not only create but thrive off of inequity. I'm curious, in your mind, what incentives do these institutions have to actually make substantive, long-standing institutional changes?Oni: Yeah, that's a really tough question. You know, I think what we see motivates folks in society tends to be financial incentives, so I think if there is something in it, like, sort of profit-wise for these institutions, like, that can be helpful. I really don't know, because I think, you know, for many of these institutions--you know, I work at a government agency. The government has played a role for more than a century or two, probably several centuries, in perpetuating, you know, racist policies, and I think--you know, nowadays obviously we want to do the right thing and rectify things, but there's still--you know, the workplace here reflects what we see outside. Like, the public health department isn't immune from the inequities that we see outside, and I think that it requires really visionary leadership and commitment to change, but what it also requires is, like, white people to step to the side and there to be more leadership opportunities for black and brown people, and I think that's really a struggle. I think people support the idea of equity in theory, but then in practice it looks really different. I think, even just from conversations I had today with some of my staff, you know, in practice it can feel very uncomfortable. I think there's that saying, like, "When you're used to privilege, equity feels like oppression," or something like that. Yeah, so it's like, you know, when the going gets rough and you're really wanting to institute these changes, I mean, there's gonna be--there's tremendous pushback and resistance, and they're the reason why things have stayed the way that they are. So I have to be honest, I don't have, like, an answer. I would be curious to know about institutions that have had transformations and have done this well. It's a process. I know here at the agency, at the health department in New York City, you know, since Dr. Bassett came in 2014, and then the initiative started I believe in 2015, you know, it's slow-going, because these are, like, processes and structures that have been in place for centuries that we're now trying to undo. So I think--there's this organization that we work with called Race Forward, and they talk about equity being both a process and an outcome, and so we try to emphasize the process part, because people often want to see, you know, concrete change, and where there's an opportunity to show concrete change we try to, but we realize that this work takes a long time.Zach: So, you know, out of respect to the time, you know, I haven't been putting a lot of sound effects in, but let me just tell you, you've been casually dropping crazy Flex bombs this entire interview. So I just want to react to that. [Flex bomb sfx] You was also lighting 'em up like [blatblatblat sfx], you know what I'm saying? [both laugh]Oni: Wow, that's impressive.Zach: Thank you very much. I appreciate it. That was also Cardi B, ladies and gentlemen.Oni: Oh, I love her.Zach: [Cardi B "ow" sfx] All right, so let's do this. Before we let you go, we typically give folks space, shout-outs, parting words. What you got for us?Oni: Wow. Okay, so I would say that I'm sure many of your listeners or people who have been quite successful by this society's standards, and I think often, like, we use, you know, degrees and job titles and stuff to, you know, say how successful we've been, but what I realized, you know, with the different leadership opportunities I've had, the different degrees I've gotten, it's really about finding happiness. I know it sounds really hackneyed and trite, but really doing the internal work to be happy regardless of whether you have, like, these accolades or not, because, like, my leadership job here and my degrees aren't gonna keep me, like--you know, happy at night, you know? Like, it's really believing in myself and that, you know, regardless of whether I'm working in a clinic, whether I'm leading the Bureau of HIV in the health department, I still--you know, I am really the work of, like, all of my ancestors who came before me. I, like, represent everything that they have been through, so to then think about success in, like, this white supremacist framework would not be something that they would be happy about. So I just try to, like, think about, you know, the family members and [?] that got me here and really about my own self-worth and happiness and not to measure that by these different accolades and positions and degrees.Zach: Wow. You know what? Just shout-out to you. Like, this is incredible. You know, there are people--I will say this as we wrap up--you know, there are people that I--that Living Corporate and myself individually, but also, like, our team, will, like, look for to get on the platform, and we'll look at their social media and we'll be like, "Dang, they look like they're real spicy on social media," then they get on the podcast and they're not as spicy. It's kind of like, "Come on, what are you doing?" But, like, I feel like you have matched, if not exceeded, your spiciness. Like, if I was to rate it, like, it is higher. Like, three curry goats, like, [?]. Anyway, it's great. All right, now, look, y'all. This has been dope. Y'all know what we do. We're having these conversations every single week, coming to y'all with dope conversations. This has been Zach. You have been talking to Dr. Blackstock, okay? Dr. Blackstock is the assistant commissioner of the NYC Department of Health & Mental Hygiene, focusing on HIV prevention and research and study, doing all the amazing things up in New York. Let's see here. What else? You know, check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and check us out on our website www.living-corporate.com--please say the dash. We do livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, .net. We have all of the livingcorporates. 'Cause, see, people hit me up, Dr. Blackstock, and they'll be like, "What's the website?" And I'm like, "Look, it's livingcorporate.co or living-corporate.com," but people go livingcorporate.com, and then it pops up some Australian website, and I'm like, "Look, we don't have that domain. We have all the other domains." So you gotta make sure--you know, you gotta keep with us. You know, don't slow down. Keep up. You might get left behind. So my biggest thing right now is I want y'all to make sure y'all check the show notes, y'all look at the research and the work that Dr. Blackstock is doing. Make sure that you educate for yourself, advocate for yourself, shoot, and stay courageous out here. Did y'all hear all the stuff she was saying? Casually. She works for the government and she's talking about white supremacy. What you talking about? She's not scared, you know what I mean? Ain't nobody coming up here talking about [Law and Order sfx], you know? She's not afraid, okay? She's ready.Oni: And Zach, can I just say really quickly just as--I don't know if I'm an OG now 'cause I'm over 40, but I just want to say that I'm incredibly proud of you and this effort that you have and your Living Corporate podcast. It's really wonderful to see young people just thriving, so congratulations.Zach: Oh, my goodness. Well, look, we're both thriving, and I'm just over here like [look at us sfx]. You know? That's a Paul Rudd reference, everybody. Okay. All right, y'all. 'Til next time. This has been Zach. Again, you've been listening to me chop it up with Dr. Blackstock. 'Til next time. Peace.

Zach has the pleasure of chatting with Brittani Hunter, founder and CEO of The Mogul Millennial, and they discuss how to go about effectively using your voice at work. They also talk about The Mogul Millennial platform in general, what she's looking forward to in the future, and what initially led her to its creation. Connect with Brittani on Twitter and Instagram!Check out The Mogul Millennial website and follow them on Twitter and Instagram!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and again, look, y'all know what we do. We have incredible guests all of the time. Now, this guest is pretty interesting, because, you know, as I've been--as we. Shout-out to Ade, shout-out to Sheneisha, shout-out to Tiffany, shout-out to Tara, shout-out to Taylor, shout-out to Tristan, you know what I'm saying? These are all sounding like random names, but these are all people that actually I work with on Living Corporate. Shout-out to Amy, okay? I see you. We have all--as we continue to really build out Living Corporate, folks, there's one name that continues to come up. Like, "Have you talked to this person? Have you talked to this person? Have you talked to this person?" And I'm like, "Yes, I have. Yes, we've made a connection. Yes, we still need to interview. Yes, but I do know who that is," and it is this individual, and this person is a LinkedIn Top Voice. They're an entrepreneur. They're a writer. They're an educator. They're a public speaker. They're a mover. They're a shaker, you know what I'm saying? They're a snatcher of edges, you know what I'm saying? They out here is my point, and this person is Brittani Hunter. Brittani, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Brittani: I'm doing really good. Thanks for having me.Zach: No, no, no. Thank you for actually being on the show. In fact, let me go ahead and just--just a very modest, you know what I'm saying, cheer, just to welcome you, you know what I'm saying? [cheers sfx] Nothing too crazy. Just something to kind of get us started. For those of us who don't know you--I know I kind of gave a little bit, but would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Brittani: Yeah. So like you mentioned earlier, I'm an entrepreneur and also a LinkedIn Top Voice. I am also a proud HBCU grad, so if you went to PVAMU, shout-out to you. I am based here in Texas, Dallas to be exact, and I've been in the entrepreneur space for about 3.5 years, but full-time since January of this year. So January of 2019.Zach: Okay, now, wait, you're not gonna shout-out your HBCU?Brittani: I did. You didn't hear me? Prairie View A&M University. So PVAMU. ["ow" sfx]Brittani: [laughs] Yeah. It's the best HBCU in my opinion, so yeah, shout-out to you if you are a PV grad as well. Zach: Shout-out to the HBCUs. It's so funny, 'cause, you know, no one ever goes, "Shout-out to the PWIs!" But, you know, it's cool. Shout-out to education, and definitely shout-out to HBCUs. My dad went to Jackson State, and my mom [was Miss?] Tougaloo back in the day, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I came from good stock is what I'm trying to say. [jokingly] You're not the only person out here flexing in your complexion, that's all. Okay, so look, today we're talking about using your voice effectively. You talked about being a LinkedIn Top Voice. First of all, what does it mean to be a LinkedIn Top Voice?Brittani: So every year, LinkedIn, they'll select people that currently use the LinkedIn platform--hence the name LinkedIn Top Voice--and what it is is people that they recognize that are making an impact through the platform, and so an impact on the platform through their content. So yeah, to become a LinkedIn Top Voice essentially means that you're recognized as someone who has influence and a heavy impact on the users, on the thousands and millions of users that are on LinkedIn.Zach: Let's talk about you being selected. Like, what did that process look like?Brittani: It was actually a surprise. So I was literally at my old 9-to-5, um, not doing work, checking my personal email on my phone, and I saw that I had an email from one of the editors. And so LinkedIn has several editors that specifically focus on different subjects, and so the editor reached out and was pretty much saying that they love all of my content, that they, you know, on the back end they've been seeing how much engagement and all the high impressions that my content has been getting, whether that was my blog content--'cause, you know, LinkedIn has the publishing platform that you can publish blogs on. So whether it was that or just my normal, you know, short-form or long-form posts, and they were wanting to see if I was interested in being a part of their LinkedIn Top Voice selection. And so it was pretty much--that was really it. They required for me to write a post, so once they released the list of all of the LinkedIn Top Voices in the different categories--and by the way, I was selected in the category for Management and Culture. So yeah, once they released the article with everybody that was selected, they also released a series of articles from each LinkedIn Top Voice that was selected.Zach: That's really, really cool. You know, what's really interesting about what you shared is that, you know, you said you weren't even expecting it. You were just doing what you were doing, and then it just happened, right?Brittani: Yeah. A lot of people think that there is, like, some type of formal application or if you, like, reach out to someone that works at LinkedIn that you can get it, but it doesn't work like that. If you just keep doing what you're doing and just be focused on--and you're just, like, focused on actually putting out great content, then you'll be noticed, and if you're lucky they'll select you as a Top Voice.Zach: You know what? I just--I just think it's really incredible, and like I said from the top, everybody that I talk to, as I've been talking about Living Corporate, they're like, "You know, you really need to talk to--have you talked to anybody from The Mogul Millennial?" And I'm like... but it's just been, like, an ongoing conversation, and, you know, since then, and really frankly to this day, I'm just really excited that we were able to make this connection, you know what I mean? [to this day sfx]Brittani: Yeah. [laughs] I love the soundbites. I love it, I love it. Zach: No, I appreciate. So look, on your platform you share real talk, right? So the latest piece that I personally read was about black leadership at Fortune 500 companies being at its lowest, yet black celebrity partnerships are booming--and it's so interesting because, at the time of this recording, of this podcast, you know, Jay-Z just announced that partnership that he has with the NFL for the social justice movement thing. Anyway, in it you assert that while exploring the direct and subtle implications of that fact, right? So basically you go into it, right? A lot of your pieces do this, where you have, like, this fairly, like, strong initial statement, and then you really go into the nuances and the implications of whatever you stated, right? As black creatives who are focused on content centered around business, I think there's a line we have to decide when we're going to, like, not cross, right? Like, and show how honest or raw that we're being. What has that journey looked like for you specifically and how you've balanced, like, discomforting truths with managing a brand that extends far beyond your family and close friends?Brittani: Yeah. So I think, for me, what I just try to, like, you know, work at towards every day is just, like, living my truth. When you're not living your truth, you know, you're the one that's mostly impacted, and so whether that was--you know, whether that's me right now as an entrepreneur or me back when I was working the traditional 9-to-5 in the workplace, I'm not going to downplay, you know, what I think or try to sugarcoat, like, my thoughts and my feelings because of someone else, and so I think it's important that when we speak on our truths it also empowers other people to do the same. So specifically through Mogul Millennial, I like to have those types of conversations and so that way, you know, the issue at hand isn't ignored or it's not--you know, it's not watered down.Zach: And so how do you feel like that philosophy could be applied to, like, black and brown professionals in their day-to-day jobs and how they use their voice?Brittani: I think, you know--it's funny. So it makes me think about--like, a really quick story. When I was working at one of my last 9-to-5s, it was a predominantly white workplace, and one of my coworkers who was black, she would just, like, literally turn her personality all the way off, even from, like, the foods that she ate.Zach: Wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Whoa, whoa, whoa. [record scratch sfx] What you mean the food that she ate?Brittani: Yeah! So she wouldn't eat things like chicken in the office or really be, like, really careful on the types of fruit that she would eat.Zach: The types of--oh, so she wouldn't eat, like, a banana is what you're trying to say?Brittani: That, watermelon. You know, like, the traditional, like, things--[haha sfx, both laugh] Yeah, like, you think about, like, black people, and it was weird. So we would have, like, potlucks at work, and if people brought chicken she would say that she was allergic to chicken, but she loved chicken.Zach: She would say that she was allergic to chicken?Brittani: Yeah. It was like, "Girl, why are you doing this? Just be yourself and people will like you for it," you know?Zach: Can we have, like, a real conversation about this though? Okay, so I was talking to my--my wife and I were talking about this. We talk about this often, and Dave Chappelle did a whole stand-up skit about it, but you know how, like, just racist--anti-black racism is so lazy. So it's like, you really think that chicken and watermelon are, like, exclusive to black people? Do you know delicious watermelon is? Do you know how delicious chicken--like, do you know how many cultures enjoy chicken? We all love chicken. Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm. So she would not eat watermelon. She would not eat bananas. Bananas are--you know, they're a lot of sugar, so if you're watching your weight and you're trying to, you know, kind of cut down on your calories, I can understand--Brittani: Yeah, the carbs and everything. Yeah, I get it, but, you know, from that to, you know, purposely not listening to music that she wanted to in her own personal office.Zach: She had a personal office?Brittani: Yeah. It was just crazy. Like, do what you want to do. Like, be yourself. And so she would say all of the time, like, "Well, Brittani, you're gonna listen to this type of music in the office?" Yes. This is my office. You know, I've earned my role. I'm just as qualified as the next person, and I'm not gonna feel uncomfortable at work and not do things that are true to myself, but the person next to me is, just because we're two different skin colors, come from two different backgrounds, and, you know, upbringings. You know, it doesn't mean that they can do something that I can't. And so one of the things that I learned is that, you know, when you're true to yourself, people, they like the real you. They want to know the real you. You don't have to whiten it to be accepted. So yeah, I highly encourage people in the workplace to not, like, you know, whiten or change who they are just to quote-unquote "fit in," because, you know, people can recognize bull**** and they know that it's not the real you anyway.Zach: That's right. Now, look, this is a clean podcast, but, you know, I respect you, you know what I'm saying?Brittani: Oh, I'm sorry.Zach: No, no, that's okay, but when you said it I was like--[Metal Gear Solid surprised sfx]--you know what I'm saying? Like, "Okay, wait." But no, no, you're absolutely right, people can recognize it, and you just want to be yourself, you know? It's interesting. We had a conversation on Season 1. It was, like, our first episode, with Fenorris Pearson, who was--he was, like, an executive with Motorola and Dell, and he talked about the fact that he went on this plane ride, right, with, like, this very senior white executive, and he said, "Look, we can tell when y'all are putting on airs, and, like, it's fake." Like, "We hate that. It's annoying. We can see right through it. It's awkward. It's clearly not authentic," right? Now, I don't want to shame anybody, because we've been classically--we've been conditioned to put on coverings and participate in respectability politics as a means of survival, so I'm not shaming anybody for doing those things, but at the same time--not but, and we also live in a time when, look, you have a voice. Use it and be yourself, right? Like, if you want to listen to Rick Ross, you know what I'm saying, do that. You want to smoke a Black and Mild on your smoke break? Go ahead and do that. Like, nobody's gonna stop you. Like, it's okay. It's all right. Maybe not a Black and Mild. [both laugh] I'm trying to think of the last time I've seen somebody smoke a Black and Mild, like, in a work setting.Brittani: Oh, God. I don't think I've ever seen that. That's funny.Zach: Like a 'rillo. That'd be like, "Ooh, what's going on?" [both laugh] No, no, no, but anyway, let's talk a little bit about Mogul Millennial, right? You've talked about the fact it's been going on for three years. What have you been most proud of so far, and what are you looking forward to most in the next, like, six to twelve months?Brittani: You know, when I think about, like, everything that I've experienced in these three years, the thing that I am mostly proud of was getting out of my [?] and realizing that I literally cannot do everything. At my last job, I was--I've always been in management roles, so I'm used to being, like, head over something, you know?Zach: Hold on a second. So wait, wait, wait. You said you've always been in management roles?Brittani: Yeah.["ow" sfx]Zach: Okay, I got you. Keep going. Brittani: [laughs] Yeah, so when I started, you know, The Mogul Millennial, it was, you know, just, like, a side project in the beginning since I couldn't dedicate all of my time and resources to it, but yeah, once I decided that I was gonna go full-time with it, I knew that, "Okay, well, Brittani, you can't, like, grow this company. You can't, like, really be as profitable as you want to be, and you're doing everything." So you're doing all of the social media. You're writing all of the blog posts. You're the one trying to pitch yourself and your company to different brands and partners, so you can't do it all, or you can but it's not gonna be really worth anything, or it won't be as good as it could be and as impactful as it could be. And so I really didn't want to at the beginning, I decided to put out a post asking for help, and once I did that, like, our traction increased. I felt like the content got better because we just had, you know, more diverse opinions and thoughts from--like, black millennials literally all over the world were contributing, and so I think that's what I've been most proud of, you know, recognizing that I don't know everything, and that's fine, 'cause now I have people that help me out day-to-day that are so much more better at certain things and more knowledgeable on certain topics, and I've learned a lot as well from those people.[straight up sfx]Zach: No, I feel you. Like, it's tough when, you know, you're at a point, you're grinding, and you feel like you're doing everything, right, like, to the point you're just at your wit's end. You're looking at 'em like ["what more do you want from me?" sfx] You know? It's just like, "I can't." Like, "I have to reach out." That's really important. So, you know, you not only used your voice to create your platform, but you used your voice to extend and expand your platform, 'cause you had to actually use your voice to ask for help.Brittani: Mm-hmm, absolutely. So right now--it was crazy, 'cause when I put out the first post--so since I'm... I have the highest, like, influence on LinkedIn, so, you know, I went to what I know I'm good in. So I put a post on LinkedIn, and literally within the first, like, two weeks, we had over 150 people who were like, "I want to write!" And it was so overwhelming. So between--and remember, I was still working at my 9-to-5. So in-between meetings, like, literally as I was going to, like, meetings, either, like on-site at my job or off-site, or during my lunch break, anything--on the way to the restroom, I was having interviews with these people. 'Cause some people, you know, I had to--I wanted to be accommodating as well, 'cause I wanted to help, and so yeah, it's been good. It's been really good.Zach: So what does it look like, right, to continue and build out this platform, and--actually, let me take a step back. What did it look like when you actually left your full-time job? Like, what did that conversation look like?Brittani: So I had actually planned to leave and was really strategic. So I--I think you and I had talked before and I mentioned that I lived in Houston for a short period of time.Zach: For a little bit of time, yeah.Brittani: Yeah. So originally I'm from Dallas, and I went to school at PV, which is by Houston. Went to PV, came back to Dallas, and was working at a university that's, like, north of Dallas in a small--well, not small... well, yeah, small, but it's [?]. So I was working there at UT Dallas and I remember being approached by my boss's boss--well, no, my boss's boss's boss. So, like, three people above me, to work at the property at the University of Houston, and I denied them, like, three or four times, because the pay wasn't right and I was like, "No, you're not gonna pay me [?]," and I have to move and uproot my life, and so eventually we negotiated back and forth. I got the rate that I wanted plus more, and we--and so yeah, I specifically took that role because I knew that I wanted to quit within a year so that way I could work on Mogul Millennial full-time, 'cause we were doing really well with the site, and so--so yeah, I literally only took the promotion--well, it was like a lateral promotion, so it was the same role but different duties. Zach: But you had got that [cha-ching sfx].Brittani: Exactly, exactly. Making extra money, so I took it knowing that, "Okay, well, I can save money even faster and, you know, quit and be way more financially comfortable."Zach: I got you. So you were, like, kind of scheming on the low, but, like, you know, for yourself though.Brittani: Yeah. I mean, they do it all of the time with us, with [?]. So I had no regrets, no shame. [laughs]Zach: Oh, no, no. Hey, I'm not shaming you, I'm just chuckling 'cause, you know, you negotiated that deal and you're in the background, you know, you're shaking his hand and you're talking about ["hehehe" sfx, both laugh]Brittani: Yep. So no, like, I literally stayed, like, long enough as well. So the year was special because, you know, within a year you can really do--if you're dedicated and persistent you can do some really good damage--well, not damage, but some good improvement. Zach: No, you said what you said. It's okay. [both laugh]Brittani: And then also with the relocation fee, you know, that's why it's important that you read everything. I read in the contract for the relocation [?] I was given that you need to stay for a year. So yeah, I left within a year, and then--so it really just looked like, you know, within that time period for me working at the other location in Houston, was to just save and grow my team, and then also focus on, like, upcoming products and plan out different projects that we're gonna actually be releasing this year, so I'm really excited about that, but it was a lot of hard work. So at my last company I was literally working, like, sometimes, like, 60, 70 hours a week, 'cause I worked in a very busy industry, but at the same time, you know, having a team was really helpful, and then I just worked crazy hours on the weekends, on my lunch breaks, before work, things like that.Zach: That's a blessing. It's a blessing to find folks who are, you know, engaged and willing to support, right? You know, I think we probably need to have you back just around, like, the principles of building a team and getting started, because I think a lot of times, and I'll say this for podcasting, podcasting is notorious for people, like, starting off really big with a splash and then being done after, like, 2.5 months, because the load of, like, getting content, researching, producing, it can get, like, tiring over time, so, like, a lot of podcasts don't even last a year, you know what I'm saying? Let alone--Brittani: It's a full-time job.Zach: It's a full-time job, and so, you know, it's tough. So that's incredible. I'm so excited. I'm so thankful that you've been able to be on this, on our platform. Now, look, again, Brittani, you're the first LinkedIn Top Voice that we've had on Living Corporate. How does that make you feel?Brittani: You know what? It makes me feel good, but it won't be the last. I believe in you guys.Zach: Ow! Had to do my own Cardi B "ow," goodness gracious. Thank you so much, I appreciate that. And, you know, I've gotta give you a Flex bomb just because you've been dropping casual just--[Flex bomb sfx] It's just ridiculous. Like, it's just incredible, but, like, I'm just so thankful that you're able to be here. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Brittani: Yeah. So of course shout-out to my team. My editorial assistant, Alex, she came up with the name Mogul Mob and I love it, so shout-out--Zach: Oh, The Mogul Mob? Yeah, Mogul Mob be up in that WordPress putting content together like [Cardi B "bratbratbratbrat" sfx] You know what I'm saying? We out here.Brittani: [laughs] Yeah, so shout-out to them. They are all amazing, even--like, in their own individual lives they do so many great things, from being startup entrepreneurs, small business owners, freelancers, et cetera. Corporate bosses. They are just amazing. But the only other thing that I want to also shout-out or mention is that we gonna be launching our own online course platform through Mogul Millennial. It's called Mogul Genius, so look out for that. It will be released to a private group of people in October, but after that we'll be releasing it to the general public, so yeah.Zach: Look at you. Come on, now. Well, first of all, again, you know what, just shout-out to y'all. I've gotta go ahead and drop these air horns right here--[air horns sfx]--for The Mogul Millennial and, you know what, for Brittani Hunter. Thank you so much for being on our show. Y'all, that does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, on Instagram @LivingCorporate, and on our website at living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. Now, look, if you have any questions or any shout-outs you'd like to place on the show, you can contact us through the website or you can email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com, or you can just DM us 'cause the DMs are wide open. Now, look, you can check us out online if you just Google Living Corporate. We're at all of the domains. Brittani, do you know we have every single Living Corporate variation besides Living Corporate dot com?Brittani: That's a smart way to go. A lot of people don't do that. I'm so glad that you do so somebody [can't?] steal it.Zach: Thank you. So we've got livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, but we don't have livingcorporate.com because Australia has livingcorporate.com. They've got, like, some apartment renting company out there.Brittani: Oh, my God.Zach: I'm saying, right? Now, look, one day though the brand is gonna be brolic enough we're gonna go and we're gonna get that domain. I just don't know when that's gonna be, but it's gonna happen. I'm speaking it.Brittani: They'll [?] forget to pay their renewal.Zach: They'll mess up. Yeah, real talk. Playas mess up, and they'll mess up too. [both laugh] You know what I'm saying? We've talked about Australia a little bit. I'm really trying to be careful 'cause I don't want to create no international beef, but I very much so do want the domain, so I'm trying to figure out, like, what the best strategy is. Maybe you and I could have a conversation offline about that.Brittani: Yeah, yeah. I could tell you a story about that. Zach: [laughs] All right, y'all. Well, look, this has been Zach Nunn, and you've been listening to Brittani Hunter, CEO and founder of The Mogul Millennial. Until next time. Peace.

Zach sits down with Michelle Gadsden-Williams, the managing director and North American inclusion & diversity lead at Accenture, to discuss her role at work and why inclusion is placed first in her job title. They also talk about her book, Climb, and how she sees organizations shifting in the next decade to be more inclusive to trans people.Read Michelle's full bio on AIT, and check out her book on Amazon! Connect with her on Twitter!Search open positions at Accenture.com!Check out Accenture's Inclusion and Diversity Index!Connect with Accenture on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTubeTRANSCRIPTZach: What’s up, y’all? It’s Zach with Living Corporate, and I’m really excited to share something with y’all, okay? Now, I shared this last week, but just in case you missed it last week I’ma share it again. Living Corporate has partnered with Accenture to feature some of their most experienced North American black and brown managing directors and share their journeys, okay? My hope is you check out this and you peep the links in the show notes to learn more about each of them, including our next guest, Michelle Gadsden-Williams. Michelle Gadsden-Williams is the managing director [and] inclusion and diversity lead for North America at Accenture. Previously, she was the co-founder and chief operating officer of women’s empowerment initiatives and diverse entertainment investments, based in New York City. Michelle Gadsden-Williams has acquired a number of community service awards and accolades for her work as a diversity practitioner. More recently, she has been recognized as a 2015 Ebony Magazine Power 100 Honoree. Over the span of her career, Gadsden-Williams has been profiled in Black Enterprise Magazine, Diversity Inc., Diversity Executive, Ebony, Essence, Fortune, History Makers, Heart & Soul, Jet, New Vision—listen, y’all. Y’all get it, right? Okay, I’ma put the whole bio in the show notes. The point is Michelle has it going on. She’s killing it, okay? Beast. Straight up. [straight up sfx] And you know what? Also put one of those “owww”. [owww sfx] Like, this is crazy. I’m just so, so impressed. Her other notable tributes include being named the 2010 recipient of the Maya Way Award for Diversity Leadership by the incomparable Dr. Maya Angelou, receiving the 2008 recipient of the Harvard Black Men’s Forum Businesswoman of the Year Award, accepting the Rainbow Push Coalition’s Bridge Builder Award by the honorable Rev Jesse L. Jackson, and being recognized with an honorary Doctorate of Humane Letters Degree from Kean University for her outstanding personal and professional accomplishments in the field of diversity and inclusion. In 2013, Gadsden-Williams was appointed as a member of the Global Advisory Council on Gender Parity for the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Y’all… do y’all understand—like, come on. Give me the air horns right here. [air horns sfx] Like, this is incredible. I am just impressed. I mean, look, man, I’m over here—we grindin’. Like, like, like… [what more do you want from me?] Look, with that being said, the next thing you’re gonna hear is my interview with Michelle Gadsden-Williams. Check it out.Zach: Michelle, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Michelle: I am doing very well. How are you?Zach: [applause sfx] Doing really well, really excited to have you on the show. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Michelle: Sure. My name is Michelle Gadsden-Williams, and I am the managing director and lead for inclusion and diversity in North America with Accenture and the author of the award-winning book "Climb."Zach: Come on, now. [both laugh] Now--I love it. I love it from the jump. We'll be talking about Climb--we're gonna get there a little bit later in this conversation. Let's talk a little bit about the first thing you said, about the fact that you're the North American lead for I&D. And your title is I&D and not D&I. Can we talk a little bit about why inclusion has been placed firstMichelle: And this is a phenomena that's been happening, I'd say, over the past few years, where a lot of organization and diversity practitioners are starting to think of this notion of diversity as being--being a standalone entity is no longer enough, that inclusion is extremely paramount as having a culture of inclusion. So diversity is the invitation to the party, and inclusion is being asked to dance, as we say. So in my view, I&D is an essential component of everything that Accenture does, and we aim to be the most inclusive organization in the world, and so we recognize that inclusion and diversity foster greater creativity and innovation. So that's one of the reasons why we've decided to reverse it and have big I and big D.Zach: I love it, I love it. You know, and it's interesting, because a piece from Take the Lead, where you were featured, starts like this. It says, quote, "When Michelle Gadsden-Williams started working in human resources in 1990, the mission in her field was called affirmative action." And, I mean, that's really interesting, right? 'Cause we talked a little bit before we started the show--we talked a little bit about your tenure, right, and the breadth and depth of your experience, and, you know--so you started in 1990. Despite it being almost 2020, there are still folks who believe I&D efforts are some version of affirmative action. So, like, how do you, as an executive leader, navigate the fears and frustrations of those who look at I&D as a zero-sum game?Michelle: Yeah, that's an interesting question, and I'm going to go back to a piece of research that Accenture conducted a short time ago. And one of the things that we've done, earlier this year, is to take a step back and think about, you know, what is this impact of I&D in the workplace, and so we conducted a survey of about 18,000 employees of companies around the world, and we asked two very important questions, one of which was "How inclusive is your culture?" The other was "How willing are you to innovate?" And so while diversity factors very much into--and has a significant impact on--the innovation mindset, a culture of equality is the multiplier, and that's what's really going to help companies maximize innovation. So when I started doing this work many years ago, and actually it was just before 1990--yes, it was called affirmative action, and the strategy was really more about "So how many individuals of difference do you have?" So it was basically a headcount exercise. It had nothing to do with culture. It had nothing to do with inclusion. It had nothing to do about what we're talking about today. So fast forward to current day. This notion of inclusion and diversity has evolved, and now many organizations are really starting to see the true power of what this work represents, that it's not just about counting heads. It's about making those heads count and ensuring that every single individual, regardless of their difference, has an opportunity to realize their potential, realize their ambition, have a seat at the table, and to reach their career aspiration, whatever that may be.Zach: That's a really powerful point, because--it's interesting. I've been having conversations with folks who talk about inclusion, and I've asked individuals and leaders of organizations, like, "Look, how do you actually define inclusion?" And people will say, "Well, making sure everybody feels included." And I was like, "Okay..." [both laugh]Michelle: Well, that's interesting.Zach: And I'm like, "Okay..." But what I think is paramount when we talk about inclusion is the fact that inclusion from my perspective--and this may sound--maybe I'm framing it radically, but there's some type of distribution of power, right, to individuals so that they actually have a true voice. Like, I don't--I don't see a voice at the table absent some level of authority or power. And so when you talk about, like, career development and making sure that they're growing and that folks are progressing and things of that nature, what I'm hearing is--and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, so help me, keep me honest--what I'm hearing is is that part of that inclusion definition also comes with some level of--if it's, like, promotion or positioning them, positioning folks, so their voice can actually be heard in ways that make sense, right? It's not just about, you know, nodding and smiling, but making sure that they're actually empowered.Michelle: That's exactly right. We all--like, we're all sitting around a table, that it's allowing individuals the place and the space to allow their perspective or their point of view to be voiced. So we all have a responsibility to ensure that that happens, whether or not people recognize that or not. I believe that's what true inclusion is all about, ensuring that people who have a seat at that table, they believe that they matter, that their perspectives and opinions and points of view--that they matter.Zach: No, I love that. I love that, and it's so--I really do believe--and I recognize your point in that where Accenture is in their journey, in their I&D journey, but I would challenge that--as I've had multiple conversations with other leaders, HR practitioners, other folks who ascribe themselves as I&D leaders or D&I leaders--that definition of inclusion, it always falls a little bit short to me. And maybe my bar is a little too high, but I'm like, "Okay, at what point are we actually empowering these folks who have been historically disenfranchised and under-represented in these spaces with actual power and, like, authority, so that they can actually, to your point, have the space and the breadth at the table to speak and actually actualize something?"Michelle: Exactly. And I think to your point, organizations are just simply not seeing inclusion as the right thing to do anymore. It just makes all the sense in the world, especially when you're talking about creating a culture of equity and empowerment where every voice counts and all of those kinds of things. This is the action that's behind all of that.Zach: Absolutely. And speaking of action, this year marks the 50th anniversary of Pride, and our workplaces are increasingly diverse, and in that diversity, trans individuals are working in the corporate space at larger numbers than ever before, along with black and brown professionals and, of course, intersect--we can't ignore the reality of intersectionality, that we have black and brown trans professionals also in the workplace. And so how do you see organizations shifting in the next decade to be more inclusive to trans individuals, particularly trans women of color?Michelle: I believe it all goes back to culture first and for organizations to look at building cultures where every single individual feels included and where they can bring their whole selves to work. Things like the Pride celebration--we had a week-long celebration here in New York, which was amazing, and I'm still recovering from all of the celebrations--Zach: Yeah! I had some friends out there.Michelle: Exactly. I just think that it's really about focusing on the individual, their needs and wants and desires, and a lot of us have very different lived experiences outside of the workplace, and a lot of societal burdens, we bring those things into the workplace unfortunately. And so when we talk about inclusion, when we talk about intersectionality and all of those things, none of this works unless the culture is such that it encourages and fosters an environment where authenticity, where being your true, authentic self in ways that invites others to be curious about your lived experience, all of this helps an individual to be a lot more innovative, productive. They will, by nature, feel included. I just think that all of this resonates, and all of this will ensure that, you know, individuals, they will feel truly valued for their differences and to be--and feel free to be exactly who they are, that they're not just there to check a box and that they're empowered to contribute in many ways. So I just think that the underpin of all of this is around culture. It's around innovation mindset. It's about the appreciation of the differences that we all bring to the table and the understanding and awareness that we all don't experience the world, our workplaces, in the same way, and that's what intersectionality is all about.Zach: 100%. You're spot on, Michelle. It's interesting, because what your point reminds me of--we just had a conversation with Tamara, the MD out of Austin--Michelle: Oh, Tamara Fields? Yes.Zach: That's right, Tamara Fields.Michelle: [?] a friend of mine, yes.Zach: Yes, and we were talking to Tamara about the reality of emotional labor. Like, there's a level of emotional labor involved in just existing as a non-white person in a majority-white space, right? So, you know, you see something in the news--like, because we were talking about seeing whatever atrocity you want to choose from--and not to sound flippant or dismissive, but if you're looking at the border crisis or you're looking at a police shooting or whatever the case may be, absorbing that type of content and then coming into a space that is uniquely alien to you can be exhausting. And to your whole point around, like, culture, what I'm reading--and I'm not saying you're saying this. What I read that as is that organizations will--organizational culture will change as the majority allows it to change, right? Meaning that if the majority of a space are adaptive to a particular culture, then the organization will shift, but if there is collective push-back against whatever the initiative may be, then things will slow down, right? And I think we see that, not just at a macro level--or at a micro level in our working perspective, but we also see it, like--we've seen it in the history of America, and so I think that really leads me to ask, like, when you think about--when you talk about culture and culture shifting, what advice or--what are things that you've seen executives do, organizational executives do, to facilitate cultural change for more inclusive workplaces?Michelle: Well, I think there are several things that leaders must do, the first of which is they have to make I&D, inclusion and diversity, a priority. There needs to be established diversity objectives and priorities, equal pay, advancement goals. Like, all of that needs to be established in order to shift the culture to the desired state. The second thing I would say is making leaders accountable, holding individuals' feet to the fire, and we have to track progress and really have some tangible consequences where if a leader does not--is not on board, then there needs to be some sort of--and maybe it's not a consequence. Maybe that is a strong word, but there needs to be some accountability in terms of ensuring that diversity and inclusion is priority #1 if we are to create the ideal culture that we're talking about here. I also think encouraging risk taking and ensuring that employees know that they have the freedom to experiment, to ideate, to innovate, and that's what helps us all learn and grow as professionals. So I just think all of these things will help us get to that ideal state and also create a culture--you talked about the freedom to fail. I think all of this helps in that regard.Zach: No, you're absolutely right, you're absolutely right. So, you know, earlier this season we had Chris Moreland. Chris Moreland is the chief inclusion officer at Vizient, and he was on the show. He talked a bit about covering and the actions that non-majority folks in the corporate space participate in to feel safe. I think the concept of covering--I know that you're fairly, if not deeply, familiar with it, as it's been--it's a fairly established concept. We see it in a lot of whitepapers from McKinsey to Deloitte. I believe Accenture's even talked about the concept of covering within the topic of D*I or I&D. What are some of the key covering activities you believe non-majority members commit in the workplace?Michelle: Let's see--okay, so say that again. So what are some of the--Zach: What are some of the key covering activities--what are some of the key ways that you see black and brown folks covering themselves in the workplace?Michelle: Oh. I would say things like not being active or involved in workplace activities like employee resource groups and things that can be perceived as polarizing. Sometimes people of color tend to opt out of things that might look or--at least from their perception--might look [like it's] nonsensical. So for example, I'm sure you're familiar with the employee resource groups or business resource groups depending upon which company you work for, and I've had individuals not engaged because they're like, "I don't need to be a part of that. I would much rather spend my time being part of the majority population." So that's a form of covering. I've worked with Hispanic colleagues who will change their name so that it's more Anglo-Saxon-sounding versus Latino-sounding. So for example, I worked with a gentleman named Juan Guzman, and he changed his name to John Guzman, because in his view it sounded less ethnic. That's a form of covering. So, you know, the list can go on and on, but I just think that when people cover--I don't think it serves anyone well. I don't believe in pretending. I don't believe in being something that you're not. You are who you are. Be proud of who you are. We are all individuals that have a gift and talent to bring to the table, regardless of what youre last name is, regardless of if you're wearing natural hair, regardless of if you are--if you have a thick accent and you're trying to get rid of that. I just think that the more in which these environments that we're working in are receptive and appreciative of the differences that we all bring, the better off we all are and the more productive we will be.Zach: No, absolutely. I love it, I love it. And it's interesting too because I think--so I was having a conversation with--I was having a conversation, just about some strategy pieces, with a colleague, and we were talking about "How do you determine, like, the members of your D&I space?" And the conversation was around "Well, we've got to make sure they actually go to events, right? They need to go to events." And I was like--and I was trying to explain to them. I said, "Look, I would not boot people out of a group, of an ERG or whatever you call it, right, in your respective organization--I would not boot them out of something because they don't physically attend an event." I said, "Some folks genuinely don't feel safe," right?Michelle: Right. That's true. And sometimes we just have to meet people where they are, right? Because everyone is not going to be on the I&D train, majority or not. So I just think sometimes you have to meet people where they are, explain to them what the benefits are of being part of these what I think are extremely beneficial infrastructures and organizations. It's support systems. It's infrastructures. It's, you know, an informal network of individuals who look like you, and you can talk about things that are unique and specific to your lived experience. So I think the more of which we can educate the non-majority members who don't feel safe being a part of these infrastructures--we just need to continue to work on them, but some people are not gonna get on board. I mean, at the end of the day, everyone is not going to be on the I&D train.Zach: No, 100%, and, like, I think the thing is--like, my point is I've been to some--so even when I worked at Accenture, right, like, there were happy hours and things, and the events--the events were great and people showed up and things like that, but I didn't always just--maybe I had a long day, maybe I felt like it was gonna be something else I was gonna have to kind of perform at. Maybe I was just nervous. Who knows whatever reason? That doesn't mean that I didn't want to be included in the group. It's just that that is not, at that point in time, something I felt like I had the emotional bandwidth to engage in. That doesn't mean that I might still not want to talk to somebody in that group or read whatever emails y'all send out. I just--it's different, and I think it's that--I think it's really considering that--especially when you have folks who are not black or brown or whatever that, you know, depending on that diversity dimension, overseeing the group. Like, sometimes there can just be some gaps because you just have genuine blind spots, right? And just understanding, like, "Hey, this is a different space," right? You know, this is not a technology implementation where you're coming to learn about the project or coming to learn about how this software, this SAP implementation, impacts your job. This is a space that's really meant to foster empathy, authenticity, and trust, and that's a different--to me a different level of measurement, right? And you can't just be so, you know, binary with it.Michelle: Yep, fully agree.Zach: [laughs] Okay, so let's do this. Now, you already kinda--you already kinda let a little bit of the dip on the chip, but can we talk about your book Climb? I'd love to hear about the inspiration behind it and why it should be something that professionals of color--and just really anybody, frankly--should have on their reading list.Michelle: Absolutely. So the inspiration behind the book was--I've always had the intention at some point in time in my career to write a book, and it wasn't until I was at Newark Airport in the United Airlines club lounge and a young woman walked up to me and she said, "Are you Michelle Gadsden-Williams?" And I said yes, and she said, "We used to work together many years ago at Novartis, and I've followed your career and all of the wonderful things that you've done. You know, have you ever thought about writing a book like Sheryl Sandberg or Carly Fiorina or Carla Harris at Morgan Stanley?" And I said, "Yes, but I just didn't have the time to do it." And she said, "You know, you should really make the time to do it, because you have an exceptional story to tell." So it wasn't until that young woman gave me that nugget, that idea to really take the time to do it, that's when I really thought seriously about putting pen to paper and telling my story. And so the act of climbing has been defined as the act of rising, to ascend, to go upward with gradual or continuous progress, and it's a term that I've used to describe my career over the years as a woman, as a woman of color, and as a diversity practitioner, and as you and I were talking about earlier, there's some individuals who have an easy go of it and can take the proverbial elevator up to the C-Suite, and then others not so much. They have to take the stairs with a backpack and no air conditioning. There's no smooth ride to the top for any of us, and so no matter how you ascend there is a journey that we each experience which, you know, ebbs and flows and it twists and turns, but with every step you get that much closer to achieving your highest aspiration, your North Star, whatever that might be. So my book Climb speaks volumes about my professional journey, and one of the things that I'm extremely passionate about--and this hasn't changed over the years--is helping people of color to maximize their full potential in corporate America, no matter where they are, no matter what profession or industry they're in or wherever they're employed. I've used myself as the subject, the protagonist, to candidly describe my jorney, and that would be the good, the bad, the ugly, and everything else in-between. And what I wanted to do was to focus on tackling some of today's most pressing workplace issues that people of color typically run into, but more importantly I wanted to offer some pragmatic solutions. So that's why I decided to write the book. It's my version of "Lean In" through my lens, the lens of a woman of color.Zach: I love that. So you talked about some of the challenges--and again, I'm not asking you to give the sauce away for free, right, but when you talk about some of the most common challenges that you're seeing black and brown folks face in the workplace, like, can you give us an example of one of those challenges?Michelle: Oh, sure. You know, working twice--being twice as smart, twice as good, but getting half as far. You know, that's the old adage that most of us, at least those of us of color, we've heard that growing up in our households. You know, this is not, you know, just jargon that we hear on television. It's our lived reality. And so, you know, the bar is simply at a higher level for those of us of color, and most of us know that.[straight up sfx]Zach: No, you're absolutely right.Michelle: Exactly, and most people of color are over-mentored and under-sponsored.Zach: Hold on. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa. [record scratch sfx] Say that again.Michelle: Most people of color are over-mentored and under-sponsored.Zach: We gotta break that down. Unpack that.Michelle: We can have mentors all day long, people to show us the lay of the land and how to navigate and all of those things. We don't need that. We have a lot of that. We have plenty of that. We need individuals who are going to have a seat at the table, who are gonna be our advocates and champions and our, you know, sports agents sitting at that table, negotiating for us, putting our names up for promotion and for those stretch assignments where it counts. That's what we need.Zach: That is--that is so true. I've never heard it framed that way, but you're 100% right, because frankly I do believe--and in my work experience this has been the case, right? So this was the case when I was at Accenture. It was the case when I went to Capgemini as well and as I've progressed onto my current firm. There are black and brown folks around me--there are minorities around me who would show me how to do something, right, or give me the real from time to time. I was blessed with that, but what I didn't always have--and I had it more than others, to be clear. ['Cause] I have gotten promoted. Like, I've been able to progress in my career a few times, but the people fighting for me, right, the people who are really advocating for me in the same way or just even in a percentage of the way that they may advocate for someone who doesn't look like me who's doing half as much as I'm doing, right? And that's just a really good point. And it's so interesting, because when I talk to--when I talk to black and brown folks, particularly black women, the conversation often comes with a point of like, "Look, I'm working this hard, and I'm doing--I'm going above and beyond every day, and the response when I'm doing all this work is "Well, that's what you're supposed to do," but then if someone who doesn't look like me is doing, like, half of that--" To the point you talked about earlier, the old adage, which is based on history and reality. They do half of what I'm doing. They're getting their praises sung from the highest rafters, right?Michelle: Exactly. And so I think most of us who have been working in corporate spaces and places, we just understand that there's just more scrutiny on our performance, and a lot of this can lead to, you know, just lower performance, you know? Our self-esteem goes down. You know, lower ratings, lower wages, and sometimes job loss, because you're just not happy. So I just say all of this to say that yeah, the bar is simply at a different level for mostly women, but moreover [more] people of color.Zach: And you know what? So that last little point of distinction you made--and I promise I'm not trying to keep you forever, but it reminds me about the fact that you also--in the book you talk about intersectionality, and I feel like that point you just made just now was kind of an example of that. Could you unpack why you broke that out and you said "women," then you paused and you said, "Well, people of color."? Like, what was the--what caused that pause?Michelle: Well, that was just in my research for the book. Women and/or people of color, we do have similar challenges. Not quite the same, and this intersectionality that we're talking about--and this is such a topic that I have a lot of passion around, you know? I was just having a conversation with a majority female colleague of mine yesterday who just happens to be a peer, and she said to me, you know, "Michelle, we as women, we have the same challenges and we have the same barriers, don't you think?" And I had to pause for a second, and I looked at her--and I can't play poker, so I probably gave her, you know, a "Are you crazy?" kind of look. You know, as a woman and as a woman of color, my lived experience is vastly different than yours. So basically [what I said] to her is that, you know, "When I stand in my drive-way in Somerset County, New Jersey--that's not diverse at all and one of the most affluent counties in the state--but I'm standing in my drive-way and I'm holding my neighbor's child, who happens to be of the majority population, and the FedEx guy pulls up and wants to deliver a package to my home, that he automatically assumes that I'm the help and that she owns the house." You know, how often does that happen to you, colleague? How often is it when I walk into an elevator that the purse clutch scenario happens? And it happens to men of color too. So I could break it down for you in a lot of different ways, but, you know, my lived experience as a woman and as a woman of color, there's the double bind. So it's an interesting dichotomy, but it's real.Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] It is an interesting dichotomy, but it is real. Absolutely, and that's why I had to give you the Flex bomb, 'cause you're dropping straight facts. [both laugh] Okay. So look, this has been a great conversation. I'm honored and just very excited about the fact that you're here and that you joined us today. Before we go, any parting words or shout-outs?Michelle: Oh. This has been a terrific conversation, so I thank you for inviting me to be a guest on your podcast. Any parting words? You know, one of the things that my father would say to my two sisters and I growing up is, you know, "You are not here on this earth to take up space. You're here to make a difference, and it's up to you to determine what that difference is. All that I've given you is the tools, the education, and the rest is up to you." So all I will say to your listeners is you have to figure out what your passion is, what your purpose is, and determining how you plan to exert your power. You know, what are some of the kinds of things that give you fulfillment? You know, what feels natural to you? What qualities or attributes do you enjoy expressing to the world? And then just go for it. Anything is possible. Anything is. We just need sponsors, mentors, and others, other allies, who are gonna help us get to that next level. And if there's anyone out there who thinks that they can do it alone, I believe that they're sadly mistaken.Zach: And that's absolutely right, 'cause if you think--if you really think that in this space, as a black or brown person, that you're gonna navigate these historically-white spaces by yourself? Hey, I'm looking at you--Michelle: Exactly. I mean, we're working in institutions that weren't historically built for us.Zach: Absolutely.Michelle: We were not welcome, so therefore we have to be twice as good, twice as smart, Ivy League-educated or whatever the case is. We know that we need to do alllll the extras in order to get to where we want to be.Zach: No doubt. And I was just trying to say that if you really think you can do it by yourself, I'm looking at you like [haha sfx].Michelle: Exactly. Exactly.Zach: Well, Michelle, I just want to thank you again, you know? At some point in the episode we typically drop some Jamaican air horns, because--[Michelle laughs, Zach laughs] Out of thanks or out of exuberance, and I'm just gonna say I'm gonna drop these out of thankful exuberance right here... [air horns sfx] because this has been a dope, dope episode, and I look forward to having you back. Thank you so much.Michelle: Absolutely. I look forward to coming back and wishing you all of the success in the world.Zach: Thank you. Peace.Michelle: Peace.

Zach sits down with Nap Bar founder Khaliah Guillory to discuss the concept of being well-rested at work. They also talk about the genesis of the Nap Bar and the workforce of the future. Additionally, Khaliah shares a few interesting statistics relating to the topic.Check out the Nap Bar! Connect with them on their socials here: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, FacebookConnect with Khaliah on a variety of platforms! LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, FacebookRead the WSJ article mentioned on the show!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, check it out. Y'all know how we do, okay? We have real talk in a corporate world. We try to center the experiences of black and brown voices and identities in the workplace, and we do that by talking about evergreen topics, but we just want to make sure that we're talking about them from a non-white point of view. So that's where you got me, you got Ade, and of course you have our guests, and who would we be if we didn't have a great guest today like we always do? Khaliah Guillory. Khaliah, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Khaliah: Yo. What's going on, Zach? Thank you so much for having me on. I'm absolutely honored to be here with the Living Corporate crew. Thank you for the invite.Zach: Oh, no, no, no. Thank you. Thank you very much. Now, look, for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Khaliah: Sure. So I am a lover of humanity. Love me some people. I love to connect with people. I love '80s music. I have it on rotation, in the catalog, on a regular basis. I am absolutely obsessed with sunglasses, watches, and socks. If I could get away with just wearing that all day, especially in Houston in the middle of summer, I would. Zach: Wait a minute. Hold up now. [sound effect]Khaliah: Oh, we're gonna have so much fun. And I--you know, that's what I do, and I always like to lead with who I am from a personality standpoint. And the meaning of my name means Chosen One, because that ties into what I do. I think sometimes and often times we get caught up into what we do and we think that's who we are, but if we don't lead with who we are, then how can we really be able to connect the dots to understand what we do? So, like, I mentioned my name is Khaliah Oni Guillory, and that means "The Chosen One," and I have chosen to transition from a C-level executive position at a Fortune 500 company as of November 18th of 2018 to really solve the 411 billion--yeah, I said a b--billion dollar U.S. economic loss that the U.S. suffered due to sleep deprivation. Zach, just guess how many days that was. If you equated--I know you've got a consultant brain, so if you can quantify how many days--working days that is--how many would you guess it was?Zach: You said 400 billion?Khaliah: Uh-huh, with a b.Zach: Hours?Khaliah: Days.Zach: Days.Khaliah: How many days?Zach: I don't know. Like, maybe 7--500. 700. 700's my final answer.Khaliah: Try 1.2 million. 1.2 million days Americans called off because they were tired and they were sleep deprivedZach: Now, look here, y'all, I don't want y'all judging me for that terrible math, okay? I'm a change management consultant. I have Excel and other tools to help do the math for me, and--Khaliah: You've gotta use your tools. You've gotta use your tools.Zach: You know, 'cause you asked me on the spot. I kind of halfway understood the question. I'm excited. You know, I've got all the energy around me. Y'all don't be judging me. Sound Man, keep this in. Don't this edit either. I want y'all to see me in my--you know what I'm saying, my vulnerability, okay?Khaliah: Listen, that's what it's about, man. That's what it's about, but look, you jumped out there. You were close.Zach: I was not at all close. I said 700, and I didn't understand the question. You looking at me talking about [sound effect]. I'm like--you said 1.3 milly.Khaliah: 1.2. Zach: Oh, my goodness. And see, I'm wrong again. But anyway--Khaliah: It was probably 700 in a small town like Sugarland. Boom. See? See how we just changed the narrative? You've just gotta change that narrative.Zach: Okay. So okay, look, all the jokes aside, give us the stat again. Give us the stat again.Khaliah: $411 billion is the total amount the U.S. suffered due to sleep deprivation for economic loss. So from an economic loss, the U.S. lost $411 billion due to sleep deprivation, and that equated to 1.2 million working days that Americans called off because they were tired. Zach: Wow.Khaliah: So we can peel the onion back a little bit more. I'm doing the air quotes. Remember when it was "on trend" to take mental health days? And it probably still is. I was one of those people that took--I said, "Man, this is smart. Once a month [?], and it's a mental health day, and I'ma do whatever I want to do, and basically what that meant is that I slept all day because I was exhausted. I was working 80 hours a week, and that was the one day of the month that I gave myself permission to actually rest, which is the craziest thing in the world because we should be able to rest every single day.Zach: Absolutely. And so--so then let's talk about that. So that's your passion, right, and I think it's a really--just a really good segue into our topic for the day, right? Our topic is wellness, and specifically this time the topic is around the concept of being well-rested. And considering your passion and the research that you've done around the lack of restfulness that we have in American culture, you know, what have you been doing with that passion? I know you haven't just been crunching numbers. Like, what have you done? Like, what's the--what's been the output of you doing this research? And, like, what are you--you talked about the fact that you're passionate about solving this problem. What are you doing to solve it?Khaliah: Yeah, man. So it's this thing called Nap Bar. It's the first white-glove napping experience in Texas that offers on-site and in-suite napping services for communities that we serve. And so this really came about April of last year. The wife and I were both--she's still in corporate, but I was in corporate at the time, and we both had and still have side hustles. I changed my side hustle to my main hustle. She still has a side hustle, but if we can, we would carpool into the city, and this particular day we had about an hour and a half to kill between our meetings, and I looked at her and I was like, "Man, this is my nap time," because I'm an avid napper. I nap in my car on a regular basis, and my nap was kind of--it was gonna be a little strange. So she looked at me and was like, "Why don't you Google "naps in Houston?" It's Houston. There's got to be a place where you can pop in and take a nap." I was like, "You know what? You're right. That's dope. I'm sure there's a place." A two-minute-later search? Zero. Zilch. Nada. And I looked at her, like, in disbelief, like, "How is it this is the fourth-largest country in the world, and we're the most innovative--one of the most innovative cities--" I said countries. "The fourth-largest city in the country, and we're one of the most innovative cities, hence we've got this Innovation Corridor that's being curated, but yeah, we don't have a place for people to rest? Wow." And she looked at me and was like, "Well, why don't you create it?" And I was like, "Yeah, okay." So the next day I go to Facebook, 'cause that's what you do. You go to Facebook and you ask your friends. I created a poll and I was like, "Yo, how many people out there napping during the day? Like, in your car or in an unused conference room or, heck, in, like, the--just wherever you can find some peace and quiet," and 99% of my friends, who are a hodgepodge of professionals, entrepreneurs, stay-at-home parents, these cats admitted to napping at work.Zach: Oh, yeah. At work?Khaliah: At work, and I was like, "Boy, they're savages." The savagery is real. So then I was like, "Okay, that's just my scope," right? "That's my lens." So then I started doing more research, and I tell you, Zach, I just kept going and going and going, and I found [?] sleep. There's a sleep foundation that does a ton of research of sleep, and 52% of Americans surveyed--like, 10,000 cats were surveyed last year, and they admitted--52% of them admitted to napping at work. Now, imagine how many people who were napping, but they just was like--Zach: Oh, yeah. You know they're lying.Khaliah: "Yeah, I'm not admitting this. They're gonna find out and they're gonna come get me and fire me." Like, imagine. So then I just continued to do my research, and then I stumbled upon--the CDC had a stat out there talking about, you know, driving drowsy is equivalent to driving under the influence. So I just kept going and going and going. I was like, "Okay, clearly I'm not just solving a problem. I'm solving the root of a problem with Nap Bar."Zach: You are, and you know what? You know, it's wild because, like you said, there's a stigma against, like, even talking about the fact that you might be sleepy, right? You know, you're over here thinking like--you know what I'm saying? You don't want them--you know, you turn around, [and] you slip out in a moment of weakness that you--you know, you might take a nap from time to time, and then you've got the [sound effect]. You know, they're coming for you. And it's just--it's wild though, because I also think really honestly--like, shout-out to you, because really believe it or not--and I'm sure you already know this--like, you're actually pushing against, like, the capitalistic, like, culture and, like, foundation that we work on, because part of just this work-centric culture that we have is just pushing your body until you break, right? Like--Khaliah: Yeah. And you know what's odd about that? Like, this is Living Corporate, so I'm sure people will get this line I'm about to say, but it combats everything--the fabric of people's culture, corporations' culture that they say that they do, and I'll give you an example. Corporate social responsibilities. How many--if you Google that word, and you Google--or you do a Ctrl+F and find how many times they put "people-centric approach" and how their employees mean the world to them, but if they really adopted a people-centric approach, well, then why are people being criticized for taking PTO? And why are people getting down to the last week of the year and they have a whole month of vacation that's unused and they're gonna end up losing it because they can't roll over but 10 days to the next year? Like, if we really, truly took a step back in our culture as a whole, as a society, then why aren't we pushing the envelope back on that? And that's exactly what I'm out to do. I'm out to be that little voice that's gonna be loud and obnoxious and ferocious so that we can pivot and transition into a true, true-true-true holistic approach to the meaning of living. There shouldn't be a reason why I don't enjoy going into work, and there shouldn't be a reason why studies show that the first four hours of Mondays are the most unproductive, because people have the Sunday blues. They think about what they have to do on Monday and then they check out, [then?] they end up staying out too much late on Sunday Funday.Zach: There was an article that just released on The Wall Street Journal about that that said, like, Sundays are the new Mondays, right? It's, like, basically the anxiety of--we'll make sure to put that in the show notes too, but, like, the anxiety of your work week, it, like, bleeds over into your Sunday to the point where you can't even enjoy Sunday anymore. And I'll just be transparent that, like, typically for me Sundays are like--are really like a mini-work day, 'cause I'm prepping for the week, right?Khaliah: Yeah, right, and that shouldn't be the case. You should be able to--you should be able to prep for your work week while you're at work. And I get it, we gotta get ahead and we have to do what we need to do, but it would be so much sweeter if you were prepping on a Sunday for your work week but if you knew on Monday you would be able to get that time back because your employee, or your employer I should say, included in your employees benefit package a health and wellness that includes a nap every single day for 26 minutes, and it's up to you to decide if you want it or not.Zach: Straight up. You're absolutely right, and it's so funny, right? Because, you know, companies are--companies right now, like, if you notice, like, in the conversation of work-life balance--and this has been--like, this discussion has been happening for, I don't know, like, the past six or seven years, but it's, like, transitioning from work-life balance to, like, work-life blend or work-life optimization or work-life harmony, and, like, really what they're trying to do is, like, just have your life be more and more just about work, right? Like, you're having a good time, but you're working. Like, "Hey, we want you to have a good time as you--you know, as you work." [both laugh] You know, "We want you to take care of your family and, you know, shoot, go on vacation, you know? [?]"Khaliah: Yeah, but, like--but even think about that too, Zach. Like, I remember going on vacation, and going on vacation for a week was, like, death the next week when you got back to work because you had--you're in email jail. You can't even send any emails because your mailbox is full, and then you don't even want to consider checking your voicemail because you're already getting those stomach-aches thinking about all that you are so behind on. Now you're regretting taking your vacation, which you earned. Like, we've got to reposition and reverse engineer our thought process around how we work. Like, there's a thing called intentional work, and there's some innovative companies that are doing it just right now. You know, you've got the Googles of the world that have napping pods. You've got Ariana Huffington, who nearly died because she passed out and hit her--like, passed out and hit her head on her desk due to sleep deprivation. So you have these advocates, but then we're still so far behind the 8-ball on how do we really truly pivot. And then, you know, it's funny because I had a call, a conference call, with a Fortune 5 company before this call, and I was telling them like, "Hey, we've got to get Nap Bar on site." I've got this calculation I walked them through, and it showed that annualized nationwide, based on 3,300 employees, they are losing $16.5 million of unproductive loss of work per employee. So that's the total roll-up per employee. That's how I got that number. And they're sitting here saying, "Well, I don't know how we can afford to get the nap [zone?]." I'm like, "Did you not just hear me?"Zach: Nah, you can't afford not to have these nap [zones?]. And wait a minute. And you said--hold on, now, 'cause you're not gonna just slide past that. You said you were on a phone call before this interview with a Fortune 500 company?Khaliah: I mean, listen, I'm out here taking my shots, man. I'm out here taking my shots.Zach: I see you.Khaliah: I'm out here taking my shots. 'Cause, you know, you get this. It's just--it's just basic math. I just need one person to say yes, you know, and then my demand is gonna outpace my supply, and then I can add another zero, and then another zero, and then another zero.Zach: I'm saying. Listen, I'm right there with you, okay? You're preaching to the choir. I just wanted to make sure that the people heard what you said, 'cause I heard you, okay? [both laugh] Okay, okay, okay. So check this out. We've been talking around this a bit, right, but, like, workplace pressure, like, it's real for everybody, and it's even more real for people in America and of course abroad who are in an ethnic minority and may be battling impostor syndrome, even harder than those who feel the need to prove themselves. And to be clear, like, I'm them. I'm people. But the reality is if you're not getting rest, you won't be good to anybody. So even if--so let's just say this, right? So, like, even if taking a nap is not immediately possible for some of the folks who are listening to this podcast episode right now, what advice would you give to professionals of color to practice restfulness in those 10- or 11-hour work days?Khaliah: You know, I think the biggest piece is we have to be the change that we want to see in the workplace. So it's vocalizing, being an advocate for rest in the workplace. There is a ton of research. People can hit me up. They can email me. I will gladly send over what I've collected. I'm in the middle of a business case with another company here in Houston that's gonna really result some telling data. It's almost gonna slap people in the face if they say "No, we don't want to give our people naps at work." I mean, this business case is gonna be--it's constructed in such a way to where it's gonna be hard for people to say no, but I would say how I got to this business case and a collaboration with this particular organization is because an employee, who had only been there for 3 months, a minority man--he was in his 1-on-1 with his manager and his manager said, "Hey, how has the past three months going?" And he said, "Man, it's been quite an adjustment, coming from college to the corporate world, and I'm working 60, 70 hours a week, and, you know, it's been quite an adjustment. I wish there was a time I could just, you know, take a nap." And his manager said--well, I'll say he wasn't a manager, because this was a leader comment. You know, managers manage people. Leaders lead. And this leader said to him--after he said that he said, "Hm. Well, why don't we discuss that on your next 1-on-1? Do some research, and let's talk about it next week." And so he did, and I had a meeting with him two days ago. What's today. Today's Tuesday? I had a meeting with him yesterday to button up the business case and the pilot. So I think the biggest advice I could give is just real life experience that I just experienced just as early as yesterday is we have to be vocal about what we want. And of course we have to be professional in the way that we deliver it, and I always--when I worked in corporate I always prided myself--when I presented a problem, it's to have the solution in my back pocket. So when my leader said, "Hey, okay, well, how are you gonna solve it? Boom, here it is, and here's all the research," right? And, you know, that's why I can say I have 10,000+ hours of research. Malcolm Gladwell says if you--if you want to call yourself a subject matter expert, you have to have at minimum 10,000 hours of research in your respective field. So when I said--as I mentioned, like, I can rattle off stats from here between here and Tokyo, where they do have napping pods, but I don't have to because I think we are as a society, when people hear the word "rest" and "nap at work" they'd initially be like, "Oh, my God. That would be awesome," but then they'd immediately think, "Well, is that gonna hold me back? Am I not gonna get up for a promotion because I'm taking a nap at work?" No. That's a shift that me and my team will come in, because it's more than just a nap. It's an experience. But on the flip side of it, we educate on why--what are the indicators for sleep deprivation. So going back to your original question, Zach, we just have to be more vocal about what we want. We need to present a--not just a problem, but also a solution, and not be afraid to get creative with it.Zach: Okay. Now, listen here, y'all. Y'all heard it straight here from Khaliah, A.K.A. KG Speaks, A.K.A. [?], A.K.A. Your Favorite Sock Wearer, okay? I'm gonna give you that Flex bomb right here. You know what I'm saying? Okay, no, you're absolutely right. In that story though--it's interesting. So you said a black man. Did he have a--was the boss a white dude? Khaliah: I don't know the ethnicity of the leader, but no, the employee, he wasn't black. He was a minority. He was an Asian-Pacific Islander. Zach: Yo. Shout-out to the--man, listen here, shout-out to the Asian-Pacific Islander, the person of color raising his voice, and just to keep a bean with you, I need to go ahead and have that leader on this--on Living Corporate too, 'cause I'm kind of shocked that he turned around and said, "Well, do some research," 'cause, I mean, that's not--I don't feel like that's a common experience. That's dope that he did that, and I absolutely believe that we should be speaking up and using your voice. I think that's an incredible story.Khaliah: We need more of that, and that's why I shared it, because we need more of that on both sides of the table. We need more of that from a leadership standpoint and more of that empowerment from an employee standpoint, because--you're right, and not only that, he sent me an email--the employee said, "Hey, it's a go, and my actual--my leader wants to come and check it out too," and I was like, "Please. Let's go. Tell me when and where. Tell me what time." I know where, just tell me when. [laughs]Zach: Boy, 'cause let me tell you--let me tell you just my experience. Khaliah, let me walk up in somewhere and tell my often-times-not-minority boss that I want to take a nap at work. Boy, they'd look at me like [sfx]. It's like, "What?"Khaliah: You are killing it with these sound effects. Like, I want to come over and see, like, what software you're using, 'cause you are killing it. Zach: Man, I be looking--I'm serious though. You just looking at them like [sfx], you know what I'm saying? Khaliah: But you know what's interesting too is that, you know, from a leader standpoint, for the leaders who are listening on the phone and who can even--you know, who can low-key share this with the leaders who perhaps might need to hear this, but here's a stat that perhaps will change people's minds. Millennials will be occupying, by 2025, 75% of the workplace. 75% of the workplace in five years and some change will be occupied by millennials. And what do we know about millennials? Well, out of the survey that I saw, 53% of them stated that they value health and wellness above work, spirituality, and even their friendships. Health and wellness #1 over work, spirituality, and their friends. So if I'm an executive at a corporation, and I know in the next five and a half years that folks I have on my bench right now, that I'm grooming, they don't--they value work, but it's not more than their health and wellness. I need to put in place Nap Bar today so that when they're in the C-Suite in five years we're already advanced into VR. We've got virtual reality going in Nap Bar. I mean, there's so many different things that companies can do today to set them up to win in 2025 when 75% of their workforce will be millennials.Zach: No, you're absolutely right, and, you know--and that's the thing--so as you know, I'm a consultant, and one of the things I've really been passionate about at my job is the workforce of the future, and we're talking about, like, dealing with the workforce of the future. First of all, the workforce of the future is happening--is today, but the idea of the fact that, like, folks will leave--this generation of people, and not even thinking about Gen Z's gonna be doing. I don't know what they--Khaliah: Listen...Zach: Listen. Ayo. My siblings in Gen Z. I be looking at them like I don't know--I'm scared. I'm scared of y'all. Like, y'all--ooh. But, you know, we will leave--Khaliah: They're reckless, but they're courageous with it.Zach: Oh, no. I love it. No, it's not a knock. It's just, like, a "Wow." Like, I'm really--I'm not prepared. [both laugh] But, like, you know, millennials though--and I would venture to say it's gonna be even more so with Gen Z--like, we will quit a job, you know what I'm saying?Khaliah: In a heartbeat. In a heartbeat.Zach: They'd be like, "Hey, Bobby, if you don't stop taking these naps, we're gonna have to let you go." He'd turn around talking about some [sfx]. You know?Khaliah: Yeah, you know why? Because they were already researching on their phone the companies that are innovative and progressive that probably already have nap pods. Zach: Listen, they're gonna be pulling up just like that Indeed commercial that just dropped with that white lady. She got passed over for that job, and--I don't know if you've seen it yet. It's wild. It's crazy. But anyway, she gets passed over for the job, and, you know, everybody's clapping. It's clear that she got passed over for a job. She's over here smirking at her phone. Indeed app already talking about "Interview secured." I said, "Ooh." And I oop. [sfx]Khaliah: That's funny. Now that's funny.Zach: It's super funny, but you're right. You know, it's going to be a critical--you know, it's gonna be a pillar of human capital management, of talent management, this wellness piece, and it can't just be "Hey, you know, you can take time off, but you've got to come work--" No, like, it needs to be explicit, intentional, purposed policies that reinforce true wellness.Khaliah: Totally.Zach: Okay. Now, look, this has been a dope conversation, and you know you've already been a friend of the show, and I didn't even--you know, I didn't even give you your air horns at the top for the dope piece that you wrote back in Season 1 about coming out of the proverbial closet. Man, shout-out to you. [sfx]Khaliah: Aye. [imitating sfx]Zach: You know what I'm saying? Like, we didn't even give you your props at the top. So, you know, again, you're a friend of the show. You're appreciated here. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Khaliah: Man, shout-out to the tribe, the folks who show up, the folks who--and here's the thing. People show up. They don't have to show up, so when they do we have to ooze with gratitude for that. So I'm absolutely oozing with gratitude for my tribe for showing up, and not just for showing up, but for also holding me accountable for the likes, for the shares, for the--just the "atta girl"s, I mean, those things matter when you literally jump off the cliff and you have no idea how to open your parachute, but you can trust that your tribe, your network, will catch you before you fall. So shout-out to all of the folks who have ever liked, commented, shared, sent me an encouraging DM. I appreciate you so much, and I'm sending that vibe and that love right back out to you. And for those of you who are sitting on a billion-dollar idea that's gonna solve a trillion-dollar problem, I say "Go." Just go. You're not gonna have it all figured out, but you'll be able to figure it out along the way. And assemble yourself an advisory board team yesterday, because that's gonna be the people who will be in the trenches with you, that will roll up their sleeves with you and fight 'til the end to make sure that--that they believe in not just you, but in your vision.Zach: Come on, now. Khaliah: Yeah, man. That's the motto. That's the motto, man.Zach: I don't even have anything. I just got finger snaps, you know?Khaliah: That's the motto. Like, my legit motto is "Why duplicate mediocrity when we can borrow genius?" So why not surround yourself with genius all around who have access to the things you don't have access to or who have embarked on a journey that you're looking to embark on. Hey, it's the--it's the clear definition of working smarter and not harder.Zach: No, absolutely. Now, of course we're gonna have all of your information in the show notes, but why don't you go ahead and let us know where we can find you, where we can connect with you, where we can learn more about you?Khaliah: Bet. So for Nap Bar-specific, go to www.napbarnow.com. There you can also follow us on Twitter @NapBarNow, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook we're at NapBarHou, and for anything and all things KOG Speaks, which I am a certified diverse speaker, and I speak on diversity and inclusion, performance, leadership, change management. You can catch all of my work there at www.KOGpassion.com, and then my handles on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook is KOGSpeaks. Zach: Come on, now. Now, look, this has been great, and that does it for us, y'all. So thank y'all for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. Now, please say the dash. Now, look, Khaliah, it's wild because, you know, we own actually all of the Living Corporate variations. So, like, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.net. We've even got, like, livingcorporate.org. We don't have livingcorporate.com 'cause Australia still has livingcorporate.com. Khaliah: They ain't letting it go. You're not gonna negotiate the 5,000--Zach: I don't know how brolic the brand would need to be for us to walk up to a continent and be like, "Ayo, come off that domain." I don't know, but maybe one day. That's a go. I feel like the day that we can--we can Deebo Australia for our domain, that's the day--Khaliah: That's when you've arrived.Zach: That's when you've arrived.Khaliah: That's the day you've arrived.Zach: Right, I'm saying. Okay, okay. So look, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com, or you can just DM us on anything, you know what I'm saying? Our DMs are wide open. Like, we're just trying to talk to you, you know what I'm saying? Now, look, this has been Zach, and you have been talking with Khaliah Guillory, okay? Founder and CEO of the Nap Bar. Make sure you check out all of her information. It's gonna be all in the show notes. Do not forget. Listen, I'm talking to y'all right now. Sound Man, stop the music. Listen. I don't want y'all to listen to this and, like, be like, "Oh, okay, here goes Zach with the sign-off again," 'cause see, y'all see I'm flipping it up. This is not, like, an insert. I'm talking live right now, okay? I want y'all to stop, look in the show notes, okay, and click it. I ain't trying to be aggressive with y'all, okay? I'm not trying to do nothing extra, okay? I'm not dangerous, I promise. I'm just telling you, you know what I'm saying, get the information. Make sure you learn about the Nap Bar, especially if you're in Houston, and get yourself some rest. Am I tripping, Khaliah?Khaliah: Nah, not at all, bro. Not at all.Zach: All right. All right, well, dope. Well, look here. Until next time, talk to y'all soon. Love y'all. Peace.Khaliah: Peace.

We sit down with Vilissa Thompson, an activist and disability rights advocate who is also the creator of Ramp Your Voice!, a disability rights consultation and advocacy organization that promotes self-advocacy & empowerment for PwDs. She created the viral hashtag #DisabilityTooWhite, spurring people to share instances of erasure of people of color with disabilities from media to medicine. Connect with Vilissa on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vilissakthompsonlmsw/Learn more about Ramp Your Voice!:http://rampyourvoice.com/The RYV Syllabus: http://rampyourvoice.com/2016/05/05/black-disabled-woman-syllabus-compilation/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? Now, listen, before we get into the "It's Zach and it's Ade," I just want to go ahead and say Ade, welcome back. I missed you, dawg.Ade: What's good, what's good?Zach: What's good? So listen--and, you know, our topic actually is very serious this episode, but I want to just go ahead and get the jokes out first, because once we get this interview done, I want to go ahead and wrap it right there, right? So, you know, what I love about Living Corporate is we dismantle--we seek, rather, 'cause I'm--let me not say that we dismantle anything, but we seek to at least address openly different stereotypes, challenges, and biases, you know, for people of color and how they really impact folks, especially in the workplace. And I want to talk about colorism really quick. Now, you're gonna be like, where am I going with this? Y'all probably listening to this like, "What are you talking about?" That's cool. So educational point for my non-melanated brothers and sisters out there. My non-Wakandans. My Buckys. My Winter Soldiers, if you will.Ade: Winter Soldiers... okay.Zach: In the black community we talk about colorism, and we attribute certain behaviors to certain black folks of specific hues. Ade: Here we go. Oh, here we go.Zach: A popular myth is that lighter-skinned black people do not answer their text messages. They leave--Ade: Actually, that's very true.Zach: They leave text messages on Read. Their text messages are on swole, as it were. Ade: I can't stand you.Zach: And I want to really recognize Ade.Ade: I only have 250 unread messages. You really can't play me like this.Zach: Ade is--and I'm not gonna--I hate it when people use food to describe women, but Ade is pretty chocolate, okay? She's pretty dark.Ade: You have to fight me after this.Zach: And yet she does not read her text messages.Ade: You're gonna have to run me the fade.Zach: She actually--in fact, just the other day I texted Ade, and she said, "Oh, hey," and I said, "Oh."Ade: It's on sight, I promise.Zach: You want to hit me with the "Oh?" Like, "Funny to see you here." That's what she hit me with, y'all. Like, "Oh."Ade: [sighs] Are you done?Zach: Hey, [in accent] are you done?Ade: [in accent] Are you done?Zach: [in accent] Are you done?Ade: See, you can't even--you can't pull a me on me. Zach: Man, I was so disappointed. I was like--man, I mean, if anything, based on these stereotypes, I should be the one ignoring your text messages. But you know what? For me to ignore Ade's text messages, y'all, guess what? She'd have to text me in the first doggone place.Ade: Wow.Zach: Wow. Whoa.Ade: This is a kind of rude I really did not intend on dealing with on tonight--Zach: So I want to say thank you, because last week we had--well, the last week before last, excuse me, we had Marty Rodgers. You know, it was a big deal. The dude is, like--he's like black consulting royalty in the DMV. You would think Ade would want to be on that podcast episode, you know what I mean?Ade: You're gonna have to fight me. I've decided. I've decided it's a fight to a death.Zach: [laughs] Oh, man. So I'm just thankful. I'm just so--this is me, like, publicly thanking Ade for being here and for texting me back. I don't know--Ade: I just want to say that I'm a good person and I don't deserve this.Zach: [laughs] You know what I think it was? I think it was the fact that we all got back on BlackPlanet for a couple days to check out that Solange content.Ade: Hm.Zach: I think that reset our chakras.Ade: Who is we?Zach: Or our ankhs. I don't know. We don't have--we don't have chakras.Ade: Who are we? I don't--Zach: Us as a diaspora. I feel as if that's--are you not a Solange fan? You didn't enjoy the Solange album?Ade: It has to grow on me, and I understand that that is sacrilegious, but I will say this--Zach: And you're supposed to be from the DMV too? Everybody from the DMV likes Solange.Ade: Let me tell you something. I listened--I waited until midnight. There is a screenshot on my phone of me starting to listen to this album at, like, 12:10, and I think at around 12:20 I was like, "You know what? Some things aren't for everybody." Everything, in fact, is not for everybody.Zach: That's real though.Ade: And I paused and went to sleep.Zach: Really? Wow. You know, I really enjoyed it, but I had to enjoy it 'cause she shouted out Houston a lot on the album. Like, a lot, so I enjoyed it off of that alone. And I'm also just a huge Solange fan, but, you know, I get it. It's one step at a time.Ade: Look, I too--I too am a huge Solange fan. A Seat at the Table is an everlasting bop of an album.Zach: Oh, it is. That's a classic. It's a very good album. It's, like, perfect.Ade: Yeah. This one--this one's just gonna have to pass me by and/or grow on me in 2 to 4 years. I don't know. Zach: You know, it's interesting because--it's interesting because I was used to--based on A Seat at the Table. This is not a music podcast, y'all. We're just getting our fun stuff out the way first. So it's interesting, because as a person who really enjoys Solange's words--like, A Seat at the Table, she had a lot of words. Didn't get a lot of words on this album.Ade: I'm told that it's--the experience is better if you watch the--I don't know what to call it. The visual--Zach: The visual album?Ade: Yeah, the visual album, in conjunction with it.Zach: Yeah, I'm actually gonna peep it. Fun fact. A couple weeks ago I told y'all about me playing Smash Bros., the video game, and I'm in a GroupMe, and one of the guys who I play Smash Bros. with was actually in the visual album.Ade: Oh, really?Zach: That's right, 'cause I got--those are the kind of circles I roll in.Ade: You know famous video players. Video game players.Zach: Yeah. Video game players, yeah. And as a side-note, he is very good at Super Smash Bros., so there. Maybe he'll be on an episode--on the podcast one day. Who knows? We'll see. Okay, so with that, let's do a very hard pivot.Ade: Sharp left turn.Zach: Sharp left, into our topic for the day. So we're talking about being disabled while other at work, and it's interesting because similar to how we brought up the Solange album out of nowhere, I was not really thinking about the fact that we don't really consider the experiences of just disabled people period, let alone disabled people of color at work.Ade: Right.Zach: I'm trying to think. Like, how many times have you worked with someone who was a person of color and disabled at work?Ade: So the thing to also think through here is the fact that there are lots of hidden disabilities.Zach: That's fair. That's a good call-out.Ade: Yeah, so there's a wide, wide range of conditions. Physical disabilities can also be invisible, but there are chronic illnesses, there are mental illnesses, cognitive disabilities, visual impairments, hearing impairments. According to the Census Bureau--apparently the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act, applies to or covers approximately 54 million Americans. Of those I'm sure many, many millions are people of color or black people in particular, and so yeah, I don't know how many people--how many people of color I've ever worked with who are disabled or who are living with a disability, but I certainly think that it's important that, as a whole, we think about how to create a more inclusive work culture that empowers people with disabilities that's not patronizing or demeaning or just outright hostile.Zach: No, I super agree with that, and just such a fair call-out to say that there's so many folks that--who do not have visible disabilities but are--who are living with a disability, and it's important that we think about that and we think--we're thoughtful about that too, so again, just my own ignorance, and it was interesting because in preparing and researching for this particular episode, it was hard to find comprehensive data, especially content that was specific to black and brown disabled experiences. I think for me--kind of taking a step back and going back to answer my own question, any [inaudible] I've worked with who have a visible disability--I have not worked with anybody in my career who has had a visible disability, visible to me anyway. And, you know, I think it's interesting. I was reading a piece. It was called "Black and Disabled: When Will Our Lives Matter?" And it was written by Eddie Ndopu. And this was back in 2017. He's the head of Amnesty International's youth engagement work for Africa, and his overall premise was historically black resistance and civil rights and things of that nature has always presented the black body as the point of resistance, right? And ultimately the image of the black form is one of strength and solidarity and able-bodiedness, right? And it's presenting this strong quote-unquote normal body as the ideal to then push up against oppression, systemic racism, and--I'm gonna present this, and I want--I'ma dare you to try to break this form, this body. And in that there's a certain level of bias, because it then automatically erases the idea of different bodies, of disabled bodies, and if that's the case then it's like, "Okay, well, then where do they fit in this narrative? Where do they fit in our story? Where do they fit in our resistance?" And so it's just really interesting to me, because I think it's just kind of calling out our own blind spots. As much as Living Corporate--we aspire to talk about and highlight the experiences and perspectives of underrepresented people in Corporate America. It's season 2 and we're just now talking about being disabled while other at work, and so, you know, it really confirmed for me how little I think about my privilege as an able-bodied person. It's a huge privilege in the fact that we're seen. We think that we're invisible, and in a variety of ways we are, but disabled people of color are even much less visible than we are. Ade: Right, and I also think that now is such a good time to start thinking through the conversations that we should be having, because we live in a time and a space where everyone's rights are sort of up for grabs, and it's especially important that we are holding space and creating a safe space for people who have less privilege than we do, and it's not enough that you give it a passing thought, because then you might as well be sending thoughts and prayers, right? And I think that if you have the ability to do something, it's--and, you know, opinions may vary, but I am firmly of the belief that if you have the ability to do something, it is your responsibility to do something, even if what you're doing is something so simple as having a conversation or amplifying the voice of those who aren't able to have that conversation.Zach: I agree with that, and that's really all the more reason why I'm excited and thankful for the guest that we have today. Her name is Vilissa Thompson. She is a disabled activist, public speaker, educator, consultant, and writer. Yeah, she's putting in the work. And we had a great conversation, and I really want y'all to hear it and check it out, so this is what I'm gonna do. We're gonna transition--wait, you know what? Ade, so I know we said we got the jokes in. We got the jokes in at the beginning 'cause I really wanted to give space for Vilissa, and we're going to. Do we want to come back and do Favorite Things?Ade: Yeah. Yeah, sure. Let's do that. Zach: All right. Cool, cool, cool. So that's what we'll do. So we'll go with our conversation with Vilissa, we'll talk about that, and then we'll get into the Favorite Things.Ade: Awesome, okay.Zach: All right, talk to y'all soon. And we're back. And as we shared before the break, we have Vilissa Thompson on the show. Vilissa, how are you doing?Vilissa: I am doing great.Zach: We're really excited for you to be here. So today we're talking about being disabled and being a person of color. Can you talk a bit about Ramp Your Voice! and where that idea came from and its mission and--just give us the origin story.Vilissa: Yes. Well, Ramp Your Voice! was founded in 2013, you know, as a way for me to discuss my experiences as a black disabled woman, as a social worker, and just the things that I've just noticed with my professional world as well as personally. When I--a year before that I started blogging more as a social worker blogger that was discussing social work through a disability lens, talking about different issues on that front. When[that wasn't really popular as a profession?] at that time, the profession had just started doing more things online, people coming up with different blogs and different platforms. So at the beginning of that, that really kind of helped me get to where I am when it comes to blogging, talking about the disabled experience from many different angles. So getting that experience [at 12?] led me to create my [inaudible] at 13, and we're 5 years now, soon to be going on 6 in 2019. You know, it has really grown into this organizational aspect to where, you know, I'm able to project myself as a voice within the community that really calls out some of the mess, you know, in a light way of saying it, that happens within the disabled community, as well as getting those who are in the broader society to understand that disability, you know, is very much a facet, you know, in the people, as well as their different identities and experiences. For me basically, I like to call myself a rightful troublemaker, because I don't feel that you're really doing good work, particularly if you're doing social justice, you know, if you're not shaking the table, if you're not ticking off somebody.Zach: Vilissa, I was agreeing with you because I think that, you know, when you're talking about topics around race and gender and really any topic around equity, right, and affirming or empowering disenfranchised groups, often ignored groups, right, like the disabled community, the disabled people of color community. If there isn't some type of discomfort there, then there probably isn't gonna be any growth, right? Like, in any other context when we talk about getting better or growing, like, there's some type of discomfort there, right? So, like, professional development or working out and getting new muscles or just growing as a person. You know, like, you have--you have pains. Having a child, there's pains associated with that. So there's just historically, and just as a matter of life, when you change and pain kind of--they go hand-in-hand, and they have historically in this nation as well. So it's just funny how we often try to avoid that, right? Like, we try to avoid discomfort while at the same time seeking to, like, enhance the platform of others, and it's like that doesn't--they can't go hand-in-hand. Vilissa: And I do want to say that sometimes, you know, changing things starts from within. I know that, particularly within the disabled community, there has been a lot of shake-ups due to, you know, the calling out of the racism that's in the disabled community when it comes to leadership, the kind of Good Ol' Boys club that really, you know, reigns true since, you know, when people think about disability, you know, what usually comes to mind is a white face, usually a white male face, and a lot of the leadership are white disabled men who have a lot of racist, sexist views, who resist the change that is needed, and I think there has been this surgance [sp] of disabled people of color to be able to ramp their voice, you know, in a sense, to talk about the issues that matter to them to bring forth a more diverse understanding of disability history that is not just white faces or white experiences. So I think that part of what I have experienced and others who do this activism work, you know, is shaking the table within to really get the change that you want outside, you know, of your own sphere.Zach: Let me ask this, and I find this--I find this genuinely interesting because, again, I don't believe that I considered the perspectives and the experiences of the disabled and disabled people of color. So, like, that entire community. So for able-bodied folks like myself, just people who aren't conscious of that experience, can you explain to me some of the different ways that unconscious bias, bias and racism, rear its head within the disabled community?Vilissa: Yes. One way is, you know, like I was saying, you know, who is disabled? You know, not really considering disabled people of color. You know, when we see the telethons and the marathons and, you know, the call for, you know, charities, it's usually, you know, white faces, and that, you know, visible erasure of representation allows communities of color to not see themselves, when communities of color, particularly black and native communities especially, have high rates of disability. So that erasure alone is very dangerous, you know, when there's certain racial groups who have a prevalence of disability, and then when you break that down further into the communities of color themselves--you know, I can only speak for the black community. You know, we do have a resistance to, you know, identifying as disabled or calling somebody's, you know, condition disabled, you know? We have these kind of cutesy words for it. "You know So-and-so?" You know, they may think like this, or, you know, "So-and-so may be a little, you know, quirky," or anything like that, and, you know, I think that for me, that has really impacted how I look at my black disabled body, you know, as somebody who's been disabled since birth. I really didn't identify as disabled until I started doing this work, because I didn't know that being disabled had its own identity and culture and pride and that there is a community of people that look like me and people that don't look like me and people who are wheelchair users like myself, people who are short of stature or little people or [inaudible], you know? So that invisibility when it comes to media, when it comes to the work that organizations do, really impacts one's ability to connect to an identity that's outside of their race and gender. So I really think that honestly both disabled and non-disabled people, you know, are both heavily disadvantaged due to that disability. I know that, you know, in coming to this space I see a lot of particularly black folks who are disabled, particularly those who have invisible or not apparent disabilities like mental illness, chronic pain. Those are all disabilities, you know? But we don't call those things that, and it can really create this disconnect in one's body and mind and what's going on within one's body and mind, as well as understanding that being disabled is just as strong of an identity as your gender and your race. So for me, connecting to particularly black disabled women [inaudible] is letting them know that it's okay to talk about your disability, you know? It's okay to talk about your mental illness. It's okay to talk about your chronic pain. It's okay to talk about the lack of medical assistance that you get because you are, you know, a [triple?] minority. You know, I really think that that type of visibility allows those open conversations, allows those community resource sharing or just tips shared or, you know, just plain support to occur. So for me I really want us to all kind of take a step back and say that "Hey, you know, disabled people are the largest minority group in the world and in the country," and we all know somebody with a disability, if it's not us ourselves who are disabled. So being disabled isn't just some identity that doesn't reach home in some way, shape, or form. It does, and I think that's the main disconnect that I see, people not understanding a community that is so vast, so diverse, and it's one where we do know somebody, and to not change the perception that we have about disabled people and the lives that we're able to live. So, you know, that's just kind of the things that I notice, you know, when it comes to non-disabled people, able-bodied people, not understanding things, and what disabled people like myself who do activism work, you know, have to kind of teach you all and also happen to bring you all into the fold for those who are actually disabled who may not at this point or for whatever reasons, usually due to stigma or shame, identify.Zach: In that you shared about being a triple minority, you talked about identity. As discussions around inclusion and diversity become more and more commonplace today, and more centered in pop culture frankly, the term "intersectionality" is used a lot. So can you talk to me about what intersectionality means for you? And I ask that because you shared that you being disabled is an entire identity to itself, and it is, right? It's a part of who you are. It shapes how you navigate and move around this world, how you see the world. At the same time, you are a woman. At the same time, you are a black woman. So I'm curious to know, how do you navigate the intersection of those--and of course those are just three. Certainly you have various other ways that you identify yourself. However, how do you navigate the various points of intersection for yourself?Vilissa: Well, I think that--you know, when I talk about intersectionality, I think what's so critical is that people cannot separate my identities because I won't let them. You know, being black is just as important to me as being a woman, as being disabled. You cannot look at me and just simply divide me into three different parts, you know? Each of my identities has interwoven into this, to me, beautiful fabric of my being, and the world reacts to me, you know, in the ways in which my identities present themselves, you know? Some people may not care that I'm black, but because I'm a woman that's a problem. Some people may not care that I'm a woman, but because I'm a wheelchair user that makes them uncomfortable. Some people may not care that I'm a wheelchair user, but because I'm black, that's the biggest issue. So when I go out into the world, I don't know at times which of these identities people are reacting to, or sometimes I can tell. It depends on, you know, if they're very open about what may make them uncomfortable or what they're, you know, I guess quote-unquote offended by, you know? By my mere existence. So for me, the world, you know, looks at me and judges me on those three primary identities that I have, and they make assumptions about my capabilities, my intellect, my social status, my educational status, you know? Just everything about me, and the one thing I always say about assumptions is, you know, the word assumption has, you know, A-S-S at the beginning of it, so you can make yourself look like an--you know, an unintentional [bleep] by making assumptions. So, you know, I really think that those assumptions have really shaped, you know, my experience, and particularly when I learned about the term "intersectionality," it just really, you know, was like a light-bulb moment. Like, "Oh, my gosh, that makes so much sense," because when I look at myself in the mirror, I see a black disabled woman, you know? I see--and I'm a Southerner. I'm from South Carolina, so, you know, I understand what it means to be in a small Southern town, you know, to live in a red state, to have the type of history that is attached to the South. As a woman I understand, you know, sexism and the ways that women are paid less and the harassment and the sexual assaults that women go through, you know, with our bodies and our mere existence, and as disabled, you know, we experience all of those things, you know? Disabled women, particularly those with intellectual disabled, have the highest rates of experience sexual violence. So in that example, you know, we have the connection of gender and disability. You know, when it comes to being a person of color, their people have the highest rates of police brutality. Over, you know, half of police brutality rates are conducted on, you know, disabled people, and there's a portion of those people who have been, you know, either the survivors or victims of police brutality have been disabled people of color. So in that example you have the race and the disability factor. So, you know, just in those type of statistics alone--and I could go on and on about the disparities when it comes to race, gender, and disability--you really cannot separate someone's experience and the disparities that they may encounter because of who they are.Zach: Let me ask this. You know, in the work that you do with your Ramp Your Voice! and of course as a professional, as an adult, can you talk to us a little bit about how to effectively support disabled people of color in the workplace?Vilissa: Mm-hmm. Well, I know that what my particular work journey has been. It's always unusual, you know, when it comes to how non-disabled people may look at it, but for disabled people it's not really unusual at all. As I said, I am, you know, as a social worker. When I got my MSW in 2012, I had wanted to look at traditional social work routes, and the one thing I found is that the requirements for social work positions, particularly those that deal with case management, DCS or CPS, you know, et cetera, requires you to either have a vehicle or be able to go out to homes, and as a wheelchair user I know that the majority of homes are not wheelchair-accessible, and as someone who did not have the ability to obtain a car because I was on SSI at the time, you know, that [inaudible] was there as well. So I quickly realized that if I wanted to make a niche for myself within social work I most likely was gonna have to do a non-traditional social work route, and lucky for me, I went from being micro-focused, which dealt with families, individuals, and groups, into a more macro focus, which is activism, community building, so on and so forth, and that's what kind of got me into writing and got me into Ramp Your Voice! So for me, many disabled people are like myself where we have these barriers. We have these systemic barriers when it comes to the job requirements. Like I mentioned, you know, being a wheelchair user, and you also have systemic barriers when it comes to government agencies as well. You know, with being on SSI, I knew that I would have to have a job that gave me insurance, because my SSI and my health care--because Medicaid--were connected. So if I was to lose the SSI, that means that I would lose the Medicaid.Zach: So let me ask this. What is--for those who don't know, and myself included, what is SSI?Vilissa: SSI is basically social security. There's two types of social security. SSI is what those who have not yet put into the system get, basically those like myself who are born with disabilities. Basically, like, younger kids whose parents make within the I guess income requirements. I was able to get them enrolled on it. And then there's SSDI, so those of us that work, we put into the SSDI system. So for me, I was on the SSI system because I hadn't put into the system yet. So for me, while I was building my brand, I was still looking for, you know, different types of employment. Luckily I lived at home with my grandmother at the time, and, you know, I was able to stay with her. You know, I had lived with her my whole life, so I was able to stay with her and build up this brand, and then when she passed at the end of 2015, I knew that I would have to get some type of employment. So I, you know, was able to get a job by the end of 2016, and that allowed me to get off of social security, 'cause I had health insurance. You know, that's the unique situation that disabled people endure. These are the systemic barriers. Now, some disabled people are not able to get off, particularly Medicaid, because they have comprehensive health care needs, and private insurance would not pay for some of those extensive health care needs that they have, like having a personal care assistant, someone coming to their home, helping them with their activities or daily living like dressing, bathing, so on and so forth, or they may need certain equipment, you know, that private insurance may not cover because it's, you know, very expensive. So some disabled people are not able to get off [inaudible] at all, and they have to be very mindful of how much income they may have to take in, how that can affect it, either their Medicaid and/or social security, particularly if they're both connected, and what does that look like. So this puts disabled people in the [inaudible] of property, because I know that when I was on social security I was getting several hundred and 30 something dollars a month, which is nothing, you know? To live off.Zach: Right. No, absolutely.Vilissa: Yeah, and that's, like, a month. So, you know, just think about that. For some people, that's their rent, you know? That's their rent payment.Zach: And that's some cheap rent too.Vilissa: Exactly. You know, so I think that what non-disabled people really don't realize is that when it comes to employment, disabled people have a lot to consider, and in some cases a lot to lose. That could put their livelihoods, and at times their lives, on the line. So when it comes to employment, you do have to be very strategic about what kind of jobs you take, what kind of money you take. If you can take money, what does that look like? And so on and so forth. I know that for me, I was willing to do some things for free while on social security because I knew the consequences of taking money while on social security, and that was my main source of income. And that's a lot to take into consideration, a lot, and when it comes to disabled people of color, we have the highest rates of unemployment within the disabled community. Disabled black folks have the highest rates of unemployment in the community. So, you know, it's not only us having these hoops to go through, but also people not being willing to hire us when it comes to looking for employment.Zach: So let's get back on Ramp Your Voice! a little bit. I love the writings and the photos and the resources. Where can people learn more about Ramp Your Voice!, and what all do you have going on in 2019?Vilissa: Well, Ramp Your Voice! is gonna be doing some very collaborative work. Right now I have a speaking agent, where I will be doing a lot of speaking gigs, signing up for universities. So if anybody wants me to come speak, you can sign me up for that. Reach out to me and I can connect you with my agent. And that has been a great experience that just occurred this year, to be able to connect with somebody who understands the vision that I have of my work and my voice and what I want to do with that through more writing. I'm in the process right now of working on my children's book, which is a picture book. This has been kind of like my baby for a very long time, and I'm now in the position to work on it the way that I desire to and bring it to life. Right now I don't have a publisher for that, but definitely looking for one. Right now I'm also looking to writing. I love writing about race, gender, and disability, to intersectionality and different things like, you know, pop media, media representation, health care, social work. So right now I'm just continuing to build the brand, continuing to talk about the experiences from a black disabled woman's perspective, and just really continuing to, you know, cause trouble. Like, one of the things I do enjoy doing is educating, you know, non-disabled folk, particularly those who are professionals in the medical field, the [inaudible] professions field like myself with social workers, therapists, really understanding disability outside of the medical model, which is basically, you know, talking about disability from a diagnosis standpoint as well as the [first-person?] language. We're saying "people with disabilities" instead of the identity-first language, which is disabled people, disabled [inaudible], disabled women, and really getting into the social model of understanding disability, which is more about, you know, disability being a, you know, identity, a culture, a community. So that's kind of what I offer for professionals who really want to ensure that if they're trying to engage with disabled people through their work, maybe through recruiting, you know, for their hiring practices, you know, whatever that they're interested in, make sure that they understand the language, because every community has its particular language that you need to know to be able to better relate and engage with those community members so you don't be out of date and, at times, unintentionally offensive by using outdated terms. So those are the things that I offer that I'm really looking forward to doing more of in 2019, as well as a couple other projects that I can't really say just yet, but just really, you know, expanding the brand, particularly since there's so many great disabled voices out there who are doing incredible work, you know, just making sure that what I'm doing is always fresh and always being welcome to reaching new audiences, reaching new professions and new worlds that, you know, disabled people live in, you know? Just because somebody doesn't self-identify as disabled doesn't mean that disabled people aren't in your organization, aren't in your community.Zach: I appreciate you educating me. I'm sure many of our listeners--and I'm curious though, before we get out of here, do you have any parting words? Any shout-outs?Vilissa: Well, I just--you know, I just really want to thank you for allowing me to be on here. Just know that disabled people are here, and we are not going anywhere, and if you don't know a disabled person, you need to step your game up and really--particularly if you are a professional--see the ways in which your organization, your body of work, is being exclusive--you know, excluding disabled people, and how you can be more inclusive of disabled people, and ensuring that if you're going to include disabled people that they represent vast, you know, gender, race, you know, sexual orientation, you know, identities, because we need more disabled people of color, disabled people of color who are LGBT, you know, in those types of spaces.Zach: Vilissa, I have to thank you for being on the show today. Thank you so much, Vilissa. We look forward to having you back on the show. We'll talk to you soon.Vilissa: Thank you.Zach: Peace. And we're back.Ade: That was an amazing interview. Beyond, I think, inspiring, which I don't think is the term that I really want to use there, but pardon my lack of or access to language at this point. I think Vilissa's story is--it's a call to action, right? It is--and I don't know if everyone has gotten the opportunity to go to Ramp Your Voice! and just take a look around, but there's actually an anthology--I was struggling with that for a second there. There's an anthology on Ramp Your Voice! where Vilissa actually did an amazing job at collecting a black disabled woman syllabus, and I did some work and went through and read some of the articles that I hadn't had access to or read before, and it's amazing. It is a body of work that I think everyone should read, not just because it gives you a really--if you can hear something crunching in the background, that's my dog Benjamin. He wanted to be featured on the--on the podcast today, so he has some thoughts.Zach: What's up, Benji? Yeah, we can definitely hear him. It's all good.Ade: Yeah. So this list has important thoughts. Like, The Stigma of Being Black and Mentally Ill, Complexities and Messiness: Race, Gender, Disability and the Carceral Mind, which was an incredibly, incredibly important read. "How I Dragged Myself Out of the Abyss That Is Depression Without A Prescription," Disabled Black People. Just very, very important works and in many, many different formats. So you have music, audio, video, poetry and fiction, books, articles. I say all that to say that there is a treasure trove of really important and interesting work, so I encourage everyone and will include the link to the syllabus, but I encourage everyone to take a look at this work. I don't even remember where I got started with singing Vilissa's praises, but yeah, amazing interview. Zach: No, super dope, and I definitely appreciate Vilissa joining the podcast. We'll definitely make sure to have all of her information in the show notes. JJ, give me some of them air horns for Vilissa. Go ahead, give 'em to me. Put 'em in here.[air horns] Aye. Thank you, thank you. Part of me wants to let off some of them blop-blops, Ade, but, you know, we're a professional podcast.Ade: Again, all I have to say is that celebratory gunshots are absolutely situationally appropriate.Zach: Man, my goodness. One day I'ma have--one day I'ma have the CEO of my current job, he's gonna be on the podcast, and we're gonna let them blop-blops go. Watch. That might be the same podcast we talk about respectability politics too, just to make some of y'all real mad.Ade: I am here for all of that action, all of it.Zach: I'm here for it. Man, so I'm definitely excited. So I have not read any of the pieces on here. I clicked the anthology, and I see--Ade: Any?Zach: I haven't. I haven't read the pieces on here. I haven't, no. Ade: Even the black feminism or the womanism category?Zach: No. I'm being honest.Ade: Oh, you have some homework.Zach: Oh, no. I have mad homework. I have mad homework. So I'm looking at the anthology. The anthology is requesting content, right? It's requesting content, but then I see right here to your point, there's a bunch of stuff on here. The Harriet Tubman Casting Cripping Up Issue, Aunt Vi, #QueenSugar, Black Women, & Our Disabled Bodies: Why We’re Still Whole, Luke Cage: The Black Disabled Superhero We Need, If I Die In Police Custody. I mean, Why Black History Matters. There's great content here, and really there's no reason for y'all not to check this out, just like there's no reason for me not to check it out further. Amen. Okay.Ade: Absolutely.Zach: Okay. Okay, okay. So let's go ahead and get into these Favorite Things. Ade, why don't you go ahead and go first?Ade: Oh, I just want to say one last thing before we move on. I think that it is incredibly important as we amplify the voices of people of color who are disabled, particularly black people, particularly black women who are disabled, I think it's important that we contextualize black history and the black experience within this paradigm, and I had to sit back and think through, for example, Harriet Tubman, who we know historically had seizures. She was injured over the course of her enslavement and had to deal with severe seizures for the rest of her life, which brought on these visions that she attributed to a religious--like, a sacred experience, but I think of how important it is to 1. contextualize these experiences and 2. fully give Harriet Tubman her due, right? Because if we lose the pieces that really and truly make up who she is, we are not truly honoring her, right? And I think that if we acknowledge that, you know, Harriet Tubman was a black woman, an enslaved woman, a disabled woman, in a time that made no space for any parts of her, I think we really and truly start to understand and give honor to who she was as opposed to having honestly a very surface-level understanding of who she was and magnifying her in a shallow way, I would say. So yeah, Harriet Tubman. Amazing woman. Disabled woman. I cannot sing her praises enough obviously. I mean, duh. Harriet Tubman. But yeah, it's so important that we talk about these things, because it's so easy to gloss over the fullness of who a person was.Zach: Okay. So with that being said, now we're ready for our Favorite Things. Ade, what you got going on? What's your Favorite Thing right now?Ade: So my one Favorite Thing right now is this guy who demanded cuddles and rubs, so he is over here face all in my lap while I try to record. I promise you, he is just big ol' face in my lap. His favorite thing--his favorite thing to do is to either jump right on top of my stomach, all 50 pounds of him, when I'm laying in bed and minding my own black business, or he likes to, when I'm sitting on the couch, literally hop on the couch and put his butt in my face. It's, like, his favorite thing. Zach: This sounds abu--oh, this is a dog. This is Benji.Ade: Yes, yes. There isn't a random man running around in my life.Zach: I was like, "Wait, why is he--he's a grown man and he weighs 50 pounds and he's jumping on your stomach? What?"Ade: I would have so, so many more problems if that were in fact the case.Zach: That is crazy. I was like, "Wait, this is too much going on." Okay, so Benji is your Favorite Thing right now?Ade: Oh, and my other Favorite Thing is the CodeNewbie podcast. I stopped listening for a little while because--Zach: What's the name? Say it again?Ade: The CodeNewbie podcast. Zach: Okay, what's that? What's the CodeNewbie podcast?Ade: It is a podcast dedicated to educating folks like me who are either transitioning into tech or even, like, if you're a CS student in college or whatever it may be, a new grad of either an undergraduate, a master's student, if you were graduating from a boot camp, all of it. It just educates an entire community of learners, and I love it so much. It's, you know, after Living Corporate, my favorite podcast to listen to.Zach: Aye. Okay, that's what's up. First of all, shout-out to Benji and to all the dogs out there. Woof woof.Ade: Not woof woof. Did you just--okay, DMX.Zach: No, DMX would be like--I can't even do it. I can't even do it now 'cause you just put me on the spot. [tries] You know what I'm saying? Like, that would be DMX.Ade: Okay, Lil' DMX.Zach: Yes. ZMX, what's up? So also, you know, we need to start doing our shout-outs, so this reminds me - shout-out to the college-aged people who listen to our podcast, shout-out to the Buckys, A.K.A. the allies, A.K.A. the Winter Soldiers out there. Ade: Oh, my God.Zach: Shout-out to the Wakandans, A.K.A. my true Africans. Shout-out to my Jamaican brethren, who allow us to get these pew-pew-pews off every episode. Thank y'all for the encouragement.Ade: Honestly, I think it's [tolerated?] at this point, but shout-out to y'all anyway.Zach: Shout-out to y'all. Shout-out to the corporate gangstas. Shout-out to Wall Street. Shout-out to the folks that don't have nothing to do, they just listen to podcasts all day. Shout-out to y'all.Ade: Shout-outs to those of you who have, in the last 3 days or so, deployed a "per my last email." I see you. I recognize your struggle, and go ahead and CC HR if necessary, [beloveds?]. It's okayZach: Amen. Shout-out to those who drink water every day. Shout-out to y'all.Ade: And if you are listening with us right now, feel free to reach over to a glass of water or a water bottle of some sort and take a sip.Zach: Shout-out to my people--shout-out to all of my black people and all of my white people, A.K.A. all of the people who know they need to wear lotion and all of those who don't really wear lotion like that. Shout-out to all of y'all, and then of course shout-out to all of my co-workers and colleagues who listen to the Living Corporate podcast. Shout-out to y'all. Who else?Ade: You know, it's funny, because I don't really tell my co-workers about our podcast just in case I need to shade them on the podcast.Zach: See? Well, that's what happens when you're not--when you don't live your truth, see? You've got to--you need to tell your co-workers about the podcast. [inaudible]--Ade: So I just need to shade them directly to their faces? Because, I mean, I'm with that energy, it's just that--Zach: You should definitely shade people to their faces, just as a principle in life. Ade: So here's the thing. I struggle with that, because I would love to shade you in person and to your face and very loudly--well, no, that's not quite shade, that's just yelling--however, I also hold the sincere belief that I just work here. It is not my job to educate you about your silliness. So I don't know. There's, like, a spectrum of behavior, and I don't know how willing I am to invest time in raising adults. So I'm gonna continue struggling with that.Zach: I mean, I feel that. I feel that. See, I genuinely love my job. Like, I'm at a very unique place in my career. I love my job. I have a great relationship with all of--everybody in my practice. Like, I love my team, so, like, shout-out to them. And so I have no issue with letting people know that I have a podcast, plus this is a professional podcast. Like, we don't be talking crazy on here. We haven't even let any blop-blops--we haven't even let any blop-blops go.Ade: I hear you. I love my job as well, although on occasion I do sincerely doubt the judgment of some folks.Zach: That's real.Ade: So I don't know. I'm gonna struggle with that a little bit longer and let you know how I feel about it and if I'm deploying a--"Here's a link to my podcast," you know, in an email all thread.Zach: It's a good--it's also good for your personal brand. I mean, I think--you know, it's almost been a year since we've been out. I feel like it's about time you let people know you're on a podcast.Ade: Very true point.Zach: You know what I'm saying? We were in the middle of these shout-outs. Oh, right, so Favorite Things. So my Favorite Thing right now has to be Desus and Mero on Showtime, okay? So, you know, there are a few things that give me inspiration and joy at the same time, and Desus and Mero happen to be one of 'em. I love their style. I love their content. It's super funny, very engaging, and it has a certain level of just comedic timing that I aspire to have. They're wonderful. So I love their show. This is not a paid promo ad. I don't even think we have enough juice to get ad space for Desus and Mero.Ade: No, no, no. Retract that energy right now. Retract it. Retract it.Zach: Yeah, right. I'm gonna take it back, I'm gonna take it back and add a "yerrrrrp" instead. [laughs]Ade: That's how you do it. Yep.Zach: Yes, but--but no, I really enjoy their content, so shout-out to them. And that really leads me to my question before we get into the wrap-up. Do you think we should have, like, some A.K.A.s on the show? Like, not the sorority. Shout-out to y'all, though. [inaudible].Ade: I really was about to be like, "Excuse me?"Zach: No, no, no. Like, A.K.A.s, like, "Zach Nunn, A.K.A. So-and-so, A.K.A. That Guy, A.K.A. Mr. Such-and-such, A.K.A.--"Ade: A.K.A. ZMX?Zach: A.K.A. ZMX, A.K.A. "per my last email," A.K.A. CC Your Boss, CC Your Manager. My wife's looking at me and saying, "No, don't do any of that."Ade: I--yes, I really was about to be like, "Hm, this could escalate very, very quickly, and the only A.K.A. that I am known for is not work-appropriate," so I'm just gonna move on.Zach: [laughs] Yeah, [inaudible] said no.Ade: I'm standing in my truth. I'm sitting. I'm sitting in my truth.Zach: My wife took her laptop, moved it off of her lap to her side, and then moved her head from the left to the right to the left again, to the right again, and then back to the left to tell me no. Okay.Ade: She's a wise woman.Zach: She is.Ade: We have been rambling for so long.Zach: We have, but, you know, this is actually part of our podcast. You know, people--y'all have been saying that we're not--you know, sometimes we come across a little too scripted. Look, we've been kicking it this episode. If y'all like--if y'all kick it with us--you know, actually, this is the last thing before we go. You know how, like, every podcast and/or, like, artist, group, they have something that they call their fans? Like, Beyonce has the Beyhive, right? Like, Rihanna--BTS has, their fans call themselves "The Army." Like, should we have--should we have any type of--Ade: An employee resource group? Sure.Zach: No, no. What we call our fans. You think we should call them an employee resource group? That'd be super funny. No, they have to give themselves an--you know, something like "our Living Corporaters," you know what I'm saying? It has to be something where you give them, like, a name. There has to be a name.Ade: I don't--Zach: Right? So, like, I'm pretty sure--Ade: Let's think through this. Y'all send us some suggestions.Zach: We've gotta think through it, right? Yeah, y'all send us some suggestions. Like, what do y'all want to be called? Y'all can't be called "the Living Corporate hive." That's mad corny. Can't be called the LCers, 'cause that's--again, it's cheesy. But I don't know. Like, we should think about something. I don't know. It'd be funny, like, if we ever had, like, a live podcast and, like, people subscribed in the middle of our podcast, if the noise was [makes noises] "Hi, who just joined?" That would be funny. [laughs]Ade: All right, it's past your bedtime.Zach: It's time to go. It's time to go, y'all. All right, thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. You can check us out on everything. We're everywhere. Just Google us, Living Corporate. Check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate, check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. Make sure you check out all of our blogging content, 'cause we have blogs, and we have some new stuff coming. That'll be coming--fresh announcement, independent announcement coming soon on living-corporate.com, please state the dash, or livingcorporate.co or livingcorporate.org or livingcorporate.net. We have all the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com. Y'all should know this by now because Australia owns livingcorporate.com. Somebody write a note to Australia. Let them know to stop hating. Ade: A strongly-worded letter.Zach: A strongly-worded letter, right? But they're not even doing the aboriginals right, so they definitely not gonna do us right, huh, Ade?Ade: I mean, no. Zach: No, they're not. Dang, we just put some aboriginal commentary in the end of a Living Corporate podcast episode. But I mean it, y'all need to do right by the aboriginals, and frankly y'all need to do right by us and give us the livingcorporate.com domain. I'm tired of it. We've talked about this for a whole 3 or 4 months. Consider this though a strongly-worded note, a message, okay? We do need the domain. I'm terrified to ask how much money it would cost. I have no idea. I have no idea how much money it would cost.Ade: I--I just--all right. Goodnight, bruh.Zach: Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. This has been Zach.Ade: This has been Ade.Zach: Peace.Ade: Peace.

Marty Rodgers of Accenture stops by the show to discuss the concept of lifting as you climb. He also tells us his career journey, from the beginning all the way to his current job at Accenture, and talks about the difference between mentorship and sponsorship. Check out Marty on LinkedIn and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? Look, I got a question for y'all. I'm kind of talking to--I'm talking to us right now, recognizing that we have allies listening in, we have various types and hues of melanin who check out the podcast, but I'm kind of talking to us right now. Have y'all heard of the phrase "all skinfolk ain't kinfolk?" Have you ever heard of that phrase? Okay, so if you haven't heard of that phrase--this is education for everybody now, so shout out to everybody who listens and checks in with the podcast, but the idea of all skinfolk not being kinfolk means that just because someone looks like you doesn't mean that they're actually out--looking out for you, right? And the whole idea of all skinfolk not being kinfolk is really illustrated and articulated well in corporate America. You know, for me, I think because I am one of the few if--I mean, arguably the only person in my family really actively in corporate America doing what I'm doing, coming into these spaces, and I see other folks who look like me. Initially, early in my career, I would run up on 'em and be like, "Oh, what's going on, man? Da-da-da-da-da. What's going on, brother?" And they'd hit me with, "I'm not your brother. I'm not your pal, buddy. Go find something else to do," right? Like, they hit you, and you'll be like, "Whoa, what is this?" All skinfolk not kinfolk, and so as I had those experiences and disappointments in my professional journey, finding folks who were actually kinfolk became all the more satisfying, right? And so I'm really excited because even though this Black History Month has been trash, with Jussie and Gucci and whoever else making blackface clothes and folks just wiling in general, people having actual--putting on blackface in 2019 or acting as if the '80s was, you know, 89 years ago. This episode is really powerful for me, man. And yeah, Ade isn't here this week. She'll be back next week. So I'm kind of sad, but this is a silver lining, because I got to actually have a conversation with someone who really epitomizes the concept of lifting as you climb. This man, his name is Marty Rodgers. Marty Rodgers is a managing director out of the D.C. offer at a firm called Accenture. Great man. You're gonna hear about his profile, hear about his story, and so I'm really excited for y'all to check this out, okay? So don't go anywhere. The next thing you're gonna hear is us getting into this interview with Marty Rodgers. Now, look, the computer crashed and we had to redo the interview, but I want y'all to know--and I say it in the conversation--he did actually show us mad love at the top of the interview about Living Corporate. He actually checked out the platform and stuff. He's actually a fan. Shout-out to you, Marty Rodgers, and shout-out to all the folks listening. I want y'all to check this out. Talk to y'all soon. Zach: So for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Marty: Sure, absolutely, Zach. So in terms of my background, I've always wanted my career to go back and forth between for-profit, non-profit, and government. I very much believe that all three sectors would be required to come together, to work together, to understand each other, to understand the respective, you know, why each sector exists, what their purpose is, how they're incorporated, what their incentives are, and then all three would have to figure out a way to work together on the greatest issues and challenges of our time. So whether that's the environment or civil rights or education or health care, we've got to find a way to get all three of these sectors to come together to tackle those great challenges. And so when I was coming out of undergrad--I went to the University of Notre Dame, and as I was getting ready to graduate, a guy named Dr. Cliff Wharton became the first African-American CEO of a Fortune 500 company. He became the CEO of TIAA-CREF, and Dr. Wharton had a distinguished career at the UN and also in non-profits before assuming that position, and also as an educator as well, and so he kind of embodied kind of what I wanted my career to be, and so that's very much what I set about the course of doing. So my first row and assignment I started working with Aetna Life and Casualty. I was doing economic research and economic portfolio analysis for a big real estate investment--holdings that the insurance company had. That was really awesome and great, because it happened at a time and a moment in our--in our country when the SNL crisis was happening and properties were getting dumped and affecting our portfolios, and so I'd have to do lots and lots of research on the impact of those--of what government was doing and its impact on the private sector, and so I did that for a while, and I had an opportunity to go to work for one of my mentors in the non-profit space, a woman by the name of Dr. Marian Wright Edelman. She was the president and founder of the Children's Defense Fund, and I originally started and worked for her as her--on her staff as her assistant. That was an awesome experience for me. I got to work directly with her, learn from her, and here was a person that had and is still changing the country. She was the first black woman lawyer in the state of Mississippi and had worked to help create Head Start and a whole variety of other programs for children. That was a great experience. It was the first time I was working really on helping her launch a race-specific campaign for African-American kids called the Black Community Crusade for Children, and we launched that in a whole series of freedom schools all across the country. And then I left there--I kind of had the advocacy bug at that point and went to Capitol Hill. In fact, that was another great experience where I got to work for another mentor of mine, somebody who I'd always looked up to and respected. I went to work for a guy, senator Harris Wofford, who--he's a white guy who had gone to Howard and became one of if not the first graduate of Howard Law School. He went on to work with Dr. King. He went to work with Robert F. Kennedy and John F. Kennedy. He headed up civil rights in the Kennedy administration and [inaudible] the Peace Corps and was the college president of a couple universities, and so, like Cliff Wharton, he was somebody who I had looked up to and wanted to be more like, and so it was a great opportunity to go work for him and with him. He was very passionate, having co-founded the Peace Corps, about the idea of bringing the Peace Corps home to serve American families and American communities, and so that's very much [what we did together?] was--we worked together. I was in charge, as his staff person, of working on the Americorp legislation and creating a program called Americorp to allow young people a chance to make a difference through full-time national community service efforts, and then we also worked together to create in turn--since he was a friend and an adviser to Dr. King, we worked with congressman Louis to turn that holiday into a national day of service, and so that was my time on the Hill, learning, you know, how does legislation work, how does politics work? How do you get things done on the Hill? And then after that, after spending, you know, almost 5 years trying to convince people about the importance of service and giving back and making a difference, I thought it was quite hypocritical that I hadn't served myself, and so I went and I did a stint serving Native-American kids out in New Mexico and then went to grad school, and then it was after grad school that I joined Accenture, and I've been at Accenture for 21 years, and the great thing about Accenture is it's allowed me to continue to do those things that I was passionate about, and that is, again, moving back and forth between for-profit, non-profit, and government. So I started my career at Accenture in the for-profit space, working in our financial services group. I moved over and joined our government practice, then I started our non-profit practice and launched that literally 10 years ago, almost to the month, and then after that I've now moved into our health and public service group, which is a little bit of a combination of both.Zach: So first of all, that's amazing, all of the things that you shared. Of course there's a clear pattern of service and partnership, and I also, think, Marty, what's really interesting about when you share your story and just your introduction, a lot of us, we have a perspective on one of those three spaces, if it's, like, the legislative space or the non-profit space or the for-profit space, but--and I'm certain that you've heard this many times before. I think your perspective in having such dynamic and deep experiences in each of those spaces gives you a unique perspective, especially when it comes to effectively actualizing change and supporting and lifting as you climb. And so as you know, today we're talking about mentorship versus sponsorship. And, you know, before we started recording the call, and we didn't get--we didn't get this because the computer crashed, but, you know, you said a lot of great things about the podcast, so thank you for that. But everywhere I go--so when I joined--when I started with Accenture, and I've been to some other firms, but everyone has either heard of you or they've worked with you or they aspire to work with you, and so I'm excited to talk to you about this topic, because when your name comes up, often times, especially within the black consultative community, there's a desire for you to be a mentor to them or a sponsor for them, and so I'm curious, could you explain a bit in your mind about the difference between mentorship and sponsorship?Marty: Sure, absolutely. And there really are--it's critical to know the difference between the two and to understand the difference between the two, especially as you're navigating your career. So as I think about mentorship versus sponsorship--and they're both important, but again they're both very different--I think it's important to kind of realize that at different points of your journey you're gonna need mentors, and at different parts of your journey you're gonna need sponsors, and in some cases they can go back and forth. You know, you can have a mentor that can be a sponsor and a sponsor that eventually becomes a mentor, but they are fundamentally different, and if I can take a second just to kind of delineate how I think about that. Let me go through that. So first--and again, just for you and the audience, Zach, it's just I think helpful to think of it just really quickly in a couple of kind of compare and contrasts. So first, mentorship is someone who speaks with you, and sponsorship is someone who speaks about you and for you. Mentors advise. Sponsors advocate. Mentors support. Sponsors steer. Mentors are folks that can help you think about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and that can include work, but it doesn't have to exclusively be about work, whereas sponsors talk about career and work, right? Like, that's the purpose of a sponsor. Mentors help you translate kind of the unwritten rules, whereas sponsors are the rules. Mentors have mentees. Sponsors have employees. Mentors talk about paths. Sponsors talk about trails. And then a couple other last ones as I was kind of quickly thinking through this, mentors are someone you look up to, right? And they're folks you want to be like. So for me it was senator Wofford, it was Marian Wright Edelman, it was Johnneta Cole. It's Cliff Wharton. It's all of those folks, you know, that have shaped who I am and who I want to become and who I want to be like and who I look up to, aspire to be like. Sponsors, that's not a requirement, right? But a requirement of sponsorship is power, right? So my mentors have been my heroes and my sheroes. Sponsors don't have to live up to that high of a status. And then lastly, as I described in the beginning, mentors can be sponsors and vice versa. So that's sort of, like, how I quickly kind of think through the compare and the contrast of all of those.Zach: No, absolutely. You know, I'm curious, what do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions around mentorship? So a lot of times--I rarely ever in conversation, when we have our conversations about our careers and career management with my colleagues and even folks that are non-managers and things of that nature, do I hear people say, "Man, I really want him to be my sponsor." Like, most times we're like, "I need somebody to mentor me." What do you think are some of the largest misconceptions when it comes to black and brown professionals? Or just professionals in general of course, but what you think when you say the word "mentorship" and the expectations. What do you think are some of the largest misconceptions around that?Marty: Well, especially for mentorship, right? Well, let me just actually start with both. So both mentorship and sponsorship are two-way streets, and I think a popular misconception is, you know, it's kind of a one-way relationship, but both--the key thing is that it IS a relationship, right? And there are costs and risks and investments of time, of capital, of attention, on both sides, and both sponsorship and mentorship require kind of nurturing care and feeding, and you can't have a mentorship or a sponsorship relationship where all of the value is going in one direction. It's got to be--it's got to be both ways, and so that for me is the biggest misconception. Like, there's this perception that, "Hey," you know, "I'm gonna get something from my mentor," versus, you know, what are you gonna give your mentor? Or "Hey, I'm gonna get something from this sponsor," versus what are you gonna give your sponsor? I talked earlier about, you know--one of the things I like to say is, you know, mentors can help guide you on a path, right, and talk about paths. You know, like--and again, like, that whole notion of life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Your path is a bigger thing than just your career and just your--you know, your work and your job, and a path is--it's something that you're cutting yourself. It's your way of moving forward, and a mentor can talk to you about the ups and downs of that journey and how that happens. A sponsor is really about the trail, right? And when you talk about trails, you're following after someone that's already blazed that trail. You're going--you know, with a sponsor you're sort of the protege. You're the person that they're investing in, that they're expecting something from, that you're gonna be a reflection on them. And again, that's the notion that--for a sponsor, you're an employee, right? And you're somebody that they are investing in 'cause you're gonna do something for them and for the firm, and it's a--it's a transaction. And again, that's not--that's not the same type of relationship that you would have necessarily with a mentor, where a mentor is more somebody you're gonna--you're gonna want to be like and look up to.Zach: That's just so perfect, man. And first of all, Marty, it's 4:00, so are we okay to go for another 10 to 15 minutes?Marty: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're good. We're good.Zach: Thank you so much. So let me ask you this. What was a moment for you--'cause you talk a lot, again, when you kind of talked through your journey just before grad school and before joining Accenture, you mentioned your mentors a lot and the multiple mentors that you've had. Did you ever have a moment where the difference between mentorship and sponsorship impacted your early career?Marty: Yeah. I mean, I think the story, Zach, that really kind of brings home the difference between mentorship and sponsorship would actually be when I first was made a partner--and maybe we will come back to that at the end, right? But when I was made a partner--now we call them managing directors--you know, I was sort of, to be blunt, kind of clueless. I was potentially--there's far too many of us, as black and brown folks, that--you know, my attitude was not what it should be, and what I mean by that is I was of the mindset of, you know, "Hey, I'm doing what I need to do. They should make me a managing director or a partner, and if they don't, you know, it's not why I get up in the morning, so, you know, their loss," right? Somebody, one of the folks that I was reporting to who, you know, now I would call more of a mentor, said, "You know what? That's probably not how you want to think about it, and if you want to accomplish a lot of the things you want to accomplish for other people, for other causes, for other things you say you believe in, then I need you to care about making it to partner, to managing director." When I started on that journey, I had no clue, you know, what was the process was. I was sort of, to be blunt, almost disinterested in the process. I just kind of figured--again, it would happen if it happened. When I was first up for managing director, for partner, I got what we call the paperwork without even knowing that I was up that particular year. I filled out the paperwork. Not even--you know, kind of rushed. Didn't even really think much about it, and went through the process, if you will, and Zach, the crazy thing was I was brought into meet with one of our executives, who told me that particular year I was not going to make managing director, that I was--hey, I had a good run. Glad I was part of the process, but I wasn't going to make it. And hey, you know, it was one of those things where I was like, "Okay," you know? "No big thing." I wasn't--I didn't even know this process existed. I wasn't sure of the process. I wasn't gonna lose sleep about it, right? 2 weeks later I was called back into that same person's office and was told, "Hey, guess what? You actually are gonna make it." And the difference between that and two weeks later was a sponsor had got the list, didn't see my name on it, and had decided, "Hey, nice list, but it's missing somebody," and that's the difference between a mentor and a sponsor.Zach: Wow. And that's just so powerful, because I've--you know, from mentors that I've spoken with about--the higher that you climb on these ladders and levels of leadership, you know, the more of that type of support you're going to need, right? And that there needs to be more and more consensus on who makes that list. So that's a powerful example. Marty: Absolutely, and in this particular case, right, and this is something more and more corporations are wrestling with, dealing with, and trying, and we do it formally here at Accenture, but this was a person who had been named as my sponsor that I didn't know that they were my sponsor. So they had--they had been kind of assigned to be my sponsor, and I didn't know until much later that they had been formally assigned to be my sponsor.Zach: Wow. And that's also particularly amazing, and I would imagine humbling for you, Marty, in that, to your point, you weren't even super invested in the process at the time, right? Like, your attitude was not one of, you know, "I need to get this." You know? And so for that to be the case, that's just--that's incredible, but I think it also speaks to your earlier piece when you were talking about people being invested in you that sometimes--I know for me, at least in my career, there have been people who have been more invested in me, in me getting to a certain place [that I was?] at a time because they had the insight and wisdom to know what me getting there meant, and that's invaluable.Marty: And that's the key thing for a sponsor, right? A sponsor has to decide, "Hey, I'm going to give some of my capital to you, and the reason I'm going to give you that capital, the reason I'm going to invest in you, the reason I'm going to sponsor you, is because you in turn are gonna be a good reflection on me," and/or "You're gonna be a good reflection on the firm, and net/net." Normally what that means is, in for-profit firms, you're gonna help us make money.Zach: Yeah. So, you know, in my career, I've seen--the folks who go the furthest, they have sponsors, right? Of course. And frankly I've seen people of color attempt to build sponsor relationships and fall flat a little bit, and so I'm curious, what are some tips that you have for black and brown professionals--particularly millennials, but of course Gen X and baby boomers as well--who are seeking sponsors, and what advice do you have for senior leaders and executives who may not be used to engaging professionals that don't look like them and really establishing those types of relationships?Marty: So [that was?] kind of a two-part question there, Zach. So if I take the first part, right, in terms of the black and brown folks that are seeking sponsors. Well, the first should be, again, to remember that it's a two-way street, and there has to be mutual value shared in both directions, right? And you have to know that when you enter into that relationship, you are a reflection of your sponsor, and that bears with it certain responsibilities, right? And you have to help them, and they have to help you, so to speak. Second thing is you have to ask the question, you know, "Where do I find a sponsor," right? And a sponsor ultimately, going back to those original definitions, right, has to have power. They have to have a seat at the table. They have to be in the room when decisions are being made, and that usually means you've got to look at the org chart, and you've got to look at, you know, who has the budget, and who has the chair, and who has the--you know, the P&L statement to--or, you know, who's filling out the final performance reviews, and how high up in the ladder are they doing that, right? So that would be kind of a second point. Like, you've got to know where to look, and make sure that you're actually identifying folks that are at the table. And then the last part of that is--I always encourage folks to--just like with mentors, you've got to have more than one, and you've got to look for multiple sponsors, because--especially in a lot of organizations nowadays, folks are moving around all of the time at the top, and so you never know, you know, who's gonna shift where when, and the worst-case scenario is, you know, you're planning and investing in a certain sponsor that then moves, and that person no longer has influence where you need them to have influence and you don't have any fallback. So you want to have multiple sponsors in multiple different places, multiple different folks that can speak for you at the table and can be at the table as things move and change. And my last thought in terms of our folks as they seek sponsors, I think it is incumbent upon young professionals in particular to put themselves out there and to realize that that takes courage, but you've got to put yourself out there in terms of being willing to sign up for assignments that you might not--you know, that are stretch assignments that have risk in them. You're gonna have to do a lot of networking and additional relationship development above and beyond kind of your day job. The table stakes, the price of admission, is that you're gonna, you know, perform exceptionally well and what you're doing day in and day out. The last part of that is your sponsor is going to--in terms of that relationship, they're going to be helping you remove obstacles and barriers. They're gonna be helping pick you out for certain assignments, and they're gonna in some cases be helping--they'll help you get that promotion, but you're then responsible, not just for what you were doing before. Now you're responsible for achieving in that new role, and that--you know, that's sort of your next test case, and then that relationship will continue to develop or evolve based on how you perform after that, that kind of first reach-back or reach-in. So it's an ongoing evolution, and that relationship and that dynamic will change over time, and so I think sometimes we get into these relationships and we think they're sort of--they're always the same and they're always sort of static in terms of the relationship. What you'll find is those things actually change, especially as you climb and as your relationship and the proximity sometimes between you and the sponsor, that gap, closes. In terms of the second part of what your question--and sorry for being a little bit long-winded, Zach, but in terms of the second part of your question, senior leaders that are--you know, in terms of how they can best engage with young professionals that don't look like them, I always talk about the opportunity to create space and to have grace. So space and grace, and there's really a need for both, whether it's our employee resource groups or it's our offices or whatever profession you might be in, or if it--or even sometimes those senior leaders themselves, to create the space to come together to get to know folks, to have an opportunity to interact with folks and see who those folks that have that promise, that have that ability to rise, are and can be. And so in the case of folks that don't look like them, that creation of space is really essential, where both a person of color, but also they themselves can feel comfortable in that interaction, and then the grace is, you know, there are gonna be some moments where neither of you feel comfortable, but that's okay. It takes a little bit of courage, but that's part of the price of being a leader at your firm.Zach: Right, right. So I'm a new manager at my company, and I've been recently promoted to manager--Marty: Congratulations, that's awesome.Zach: Thank you, Marty. I appreciate it. It's been about--Marty: You see, man? You just keep climbing. It's awesome. And you keep giving back, which is this podcast. Represent.Zach: Right? Man, you're gonna make me blush on this podcast, man. They're gonna see it through the app, man. Thank you. But it's been about a year, but let me be honest. In my career, often times--and I'm gonna have a bit of an inside conversation outside the house, but often times when I see folks that look like us--and this is has been my experience--they're more--they more often act like referees than they are true avenues of support, and so--and interestingly enough, some of the most prominent mentors that I've had, they've shared that some of the biggest roadblocks have been from them being at a junior level and from people who were at a senior level that do look like them, and so I'm curious, you know, what advice do you have for black and brown leaders to better lift as they climb? And what, if any, roles do non-minority leaders play in helping to support that culture? And I know I'm giving you a lot of, like, two-parter questions, but the reason why I'm asking that second part is because I do believe that there's some type of--there's a reason why we don't always lift as we climb. There's some type of factor in that, and so I'm curious to know if there's a greater cultural influence at play for that. So that's the purpose of the B part of my question.Marty: Yeah. So it's a great question, so let me just kind of unpack it. So first, I love the expression "lift as you climb," which comes from Mary McLeod Bethune, right? And ultimately, right, that's what life should be about. I always talk about the difference between ambition and aspiration, and in our world and our society and in way too many of our corporations we talk about them as though they're the same thing, and they're fundamentally different. Ambition comes from the Latin, and it literally--"Ambit" means to walk around, and what it meant, Zach, was back in the day, you were gonna walk around and you were gonna buy votes. You know, you were gonna, like, literally pay people off to vote for you, and it had a very negative connotation. And aspiration is also from the Latin, but it comes from the Latin word that means to breathe, to give air to, to give life to, to give oxygen to, and we have to be people of aspiration, and we need our firms and our companies to be companies of aspiration, right? And fundamentally what that boils down to--when you're ambitious you believe kind of in a scarcity model. You believe "I've got to hold you down so that I can lift myself up," whereas aspiration is about lifting as you climb. It's about abundance. It's about saying, "Hey, I only get lifted up by those coming after me, and it's my responsibility to reach back, give back and make a difference, to pay it forward." And so--and that I'm only there as a result of others that made my being there possible. And so with that mindset it becomes incumbent upon all of us to, you know--especially as leaders of color--to realize that we're sitting in chairs and we're occupying chairs as a result of others that came before, and sometimes we get in those chairs, and there's this sense of, "Well, hey, I'm the only one, and if there's another then they're gonna have to knock me out or knock me down." And again, that's a scarcity model. That's an ambition model. That's not an aspiration model, and we have to realize that, you know, we have to be about the business of lifting others and making a difference in that way. In terms of advice and roles for non-minority leaders, I think the simplest thing can sometimes be just an expectation of something that simple. You know, sometimes there's this whole idea of, you know, "Well, gee, if I'm here--" You know, when I first started and took on a leadership role at Accenture and was leading several of our accounts here, I very consciously wanted to have the most diverse accounts, right? And I believed if I could create the most diverse accountsand if I could create accounts that were the best accounts at the firm that people would be fighting, you know, against each other trying to get on these accounts, and if I had the best talent, then the rest would take care of itself, and some of that has to be the same spirit and ethos that non-minority leaders would have in terms of creating a culture that rewards people that recognize diversity, that bring in diversity, and say to minority leaders themselves, "You know what? You are diverse, and if you bring in more diversity, that's a good thing. And if you're helping advance other diverse leaders, that's a good thing, and we're gonna reward that." And that's a positive thing. It's not a negative thing. It's not a scarcity model. It's an abundance model.Zach: Marty, this has been a great discussion. Before we go, do you have any parting words or shout-outs? In fact, and I don't want to put you on the spot, but I know that--I know that I have a colleague who--this is from years ago, and you might not remember saying this, but she made mention of the fact that you said something like we as a people--that black people, we're, like--we're the blue note. Do you recall that statement? I wasn't there, but she said you had a statement--Marty: I have lots of statements, but yes.Zach: Man, could you just wax poetic on that please? Because--and I don't--the reason why I ask is because I wasn't there, and she wasn't even able to fully articulate what you said, but her eyes glowed when she said it, and I was like, "Man, when I speak to him--" And this was literally 4 years ago. I said, "When I speak to Marty, I'm gonna ask him to talk about this."Marty: Hm, okay. Well, the concept of the blue note comes from jazz, right? And so there's this idea that--and it's something that, you know, in our firms nowadays, and Accenture is no exception, we talk all the time about the need for innovation, right, and the need for creativity and the need for--you know, as things are going along, there might be a disruption, or there might be something that comes along that creates dramatic change, and so really that's the idea of the blue note in jazz, right? It's the moment of improvisation. It's the moment when you don't know where or how the story's going to--the music and the story is going to unfold, and really that is--you know, whether you read Cornel West or Eric Dyson or others, that's really been our history, right? That's our story, of every time we've been on a journey as a country we have served in the role of the blue note, the improvisation that moves our story forward around the realization of those very first principles that were first embedded in the Declaration of Independence and in the Constitution. And so, you know, whether it was--you know, our battle, originally as enslaved people or later in terms of the Civil War and fighting for freedom or the battles for reconstruction or through civil rights, or now even today as we move forward with Black Lives Matter and other movements to more fully recognize the process of more fully recognizing our humanity and more fully recognizing our citizenship has been one that has caused the country to confront and to look at itself and its values in the mirror, and we've been that blue note to help the country evolve its definition and its story as we've gone along.Zach: Man, I love that. I love that, and now it's captured on this podcast. Marty, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. I'm beyond honored. I appreciate your time. We definitely consider you a friend of the show, and we hope to have you back.Marty: All right. Well, thank you, Zach, very much for having me. It's been an honor to be a part of it, and if I can ever be of help to folks on a journey, feel free to hit me up on LinkedIn or Twitter or otherwise. Happy to be of help.Zach: All right, Marty. Appreciate it. Peace.Marty: Take care. Bye-bye.

Through our partnership with the Coalition of Black Excellence founded by Angela J. we have the pleasure of sitting down with Arent Fox associate Eva Pulliam. She discusses her career journey up to this point and shares valuable advice pertaining to privacy and security concerns. We also promote CBE Week, an event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement.Learn more about CBE Week here! https://www.cbeweek.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? Now look, if you haven't heard by now, Living Corporate is partnering with the Coalition of Black Excellence, a non-profit organization based in California, in bringing a Special Speaker Series to promote CBE Week, an annual week-long event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement that will positively transform the black community. This is a special series where we highlight movers and shakers who will be speakers during CBE Week. Today, we have Eva Pulliam. As an associate at Arent Fox, Eva works frequently with issues involving cross-border data transfers and international data privacy law compliance. Additionally, she has experience with helping clients comply with U.S. federal and state regulations that impact data collection, storage use, and disclosures as they relate to children, financial institutions, and others. She also continues to review emerging laws in the privacy area as they impact clients' data collection, maintenance, and breach procedures. Eva has been recognized as a next-generation leader in The Recorder's Women Leaders in Tech Law from a pool of over 200 nominees for extensive work in the tech industry. Eva regularly presents on advertising, intellectual property, and privacy. Her recent presentations have spanned topics such as the European General Data Protection Regulation, online gambling, and social media influencers. Eva, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Eva: I'm well, thank you so much for having me.Zach: Thank you for joining us. Now, look, for those who don't know you--I know I read a little bit about your bio, but would you mind telling us a little bit more about yourself and a bit about your professional journey?Eva: So I grew up in Virginia Beach, Virginia, on the East Coast. I started undergrad at Howard University, and I've always had a love for the real HU.Zach: Shout-out to Howard.Eva: Yes, shout-out to Howard. I finished at Old Dominion and then went onto law school at George Washington University. I had a great experience. I just have a love for D.C. and spent most of my career and adult life in the D.C. area, but once I became [about a mid-year?] associate, one of my mentors shifted from our D.C. office to our San Francisco office, and I was offered the opportunity to come along, and I took the opportunity as I never want to make a decision out of fear. That's one of my guiding principles. So I said, "You know what? I'm gonna not be scared to California, go cross-country away from family, and take the bar all over again," and here I am in California having a great experience. I've been able to work internally at technology companies and just really get to get a whole new grasp on tech from a hands-on perspective. So that's been--that's been my journey thus far, and it's ongoing.Zach: That sounds incredible, and, you know, I have a sister-in-law who moved--she went from Texas and then went to Spelman for undergrad, then went to University of Michigan for the rest of her undergrad. Now she's in San Francisco. So it's interesting to watch her and her path, and so I would imagine, you know, your journey was similar in that it's just completely different worlds, you know? Like, you jump from one coast to the other.Eva: It has been an extreme culture shift, which is part of what gave me the passion for CBE when I met Angela Johnson, the founder of CBE, and she spoke about it. The lack of unity or a united black professional community in the San Francisco area was a bit striking and unexpected. I had been slightly warned, but it was a different thing to see it. I found some really amazing friends and people in the community, and I think that CBE is gonna do a lot to help bring us all together and help to grow the community. It gives you the vibe of CBC Week, the Congressional Black Caucus Week, that I grew up with in D.C. So it's kind of bringing CBC to the West Coast, and I'm really, really excited about being a part of it.Zach: Well, it's incredible, right? 'Cause it's interesting for me, and I think black folks, we're not a monolithic culture, right? So me coming from, like, a Southern perspective, when I see kind of, like, what's happening in San Francisco on the coast, and I see all these black people with all these huge names tied to 'em, I kind of just assume there's an interconnected network or something there, but, like, not as much, right? And so that's why these types of events and these organizations, such as the Coalition of Black Excellence and CBE Week, are so critical and so important. Well, let's do this then. Let's talk a little bit about privacy, because I believe that's what you're--I believe that's what you're gonna be speaking on during CBE Week. So when I think about privacy, I think about making sure, like, no one has access to my social media, people can't log in to my email, but I know that it's deeper than that. I know that it's broader than that. So, like, could you talk a little bit about privacy and why it matters? Especially for black and brown folks.Eva: So I think that your definition of privacy is right on. The privacy law is concerning all things that make you you. And U.S. laws differ from European laws. European laws go a little deeper to include pretty much anything that would make you you. U.S. laws can be a little more limited in what's protected. In either case, the goal that I balance on a day-to-day is helping my clients to collect information and use it in a responsible way, so that when you provide information you know how it's being used, where it's going, and you're comfortable with that information. I think that the way that the individual consumer, or user, of various technologies and those providing their information online and offline, on paper, I think it's important that users empower themselves and actually read the policies and documents that are provided to them and understand what they're giving away. I would say that when I'm signing on for an app, for instance, if they ask to use my location, don't just click "Allow" right away. Know that when you click "Allow" you are agreeing to something, and I don't click "Allow" for location or use of my video or use of my contacts or my camera unless that's something that I actually need the app for and I understand how my data is being used. So I hope that users will walk away a bit more empowered. In the black and brown community, I think that it's something to always remember, that your data's being used, profiles are being created that, you know, you may know nothing about. It may be connected just to your IP address, the number that identifies your computer that you're using, knowing that this user shops here, eats this type of food, searches for this type of information, engages in these hashtags and conversations, and that you--people know who you are and that you're creating a profile for you and the type of advertising that you receive, be it positive or negative for your health or well-being.Zach: You know, it's just so interesting, especially when you used the word "profile." It reminds me of a story, and I don't remember the name of the comic. This was, like--hm, like, 4 or 5 years ago, but I remember I was--you know, I'm very active on LinkedIn. I have a--I have a very current profile. I have a headline. I have the image and all that kind of stuff, whatever. So at one point I got an email from a company that seemed on its face very legitimate. It seemed very established--well, it kind of had that startup feel, but very polished though, and the idea was "Hey, I see that you're on LinkedIn. Would you mind creating a profile on our page? 'Cause our website is mainly focused on mentorship. We will pair you with a college undergrad student, and you can help them as they prepare to graduate. You can be a mentor and a coach for them." And so, you know, it's like, "Eh, okay." I mean, whatever. And so it took me, like, just a little second, and you could essentially transfer your LinkedIn page to their website, right? And it would just kind of, like, lift and shift it over there.Eva: Yes.Zach: And so I did it. Like, I clicked it really fast. It said, "Do you agree?" Blah blah blah, and I clicked "OK." To your whole point, I did not read, did not really slow down and really read it read it. So then, like, I forgot all about the website. I forgot all about the thing. And so then, like, fast-forward, like, maybe 3 or 4 months later. I see a profile up on their website, and it's not my name, but all of the work information, all of the career history, all of the skills and stuff like that, it's an exact copy of my profile. And so I reached out to 'em and I was like, "Hey, you need to delete this, take this down," whatever whatever, and they took it down, but it's scary, the fact that, like, that was out there for months, and, I mean, it still might be out there now. I don't know. Maybe they just took that one version down. Who's to say how many shells they made, right? How many copies they made of that? Who knows?Eva: Exactly. Reputation control is a big thing, especially as black professionals. You are constantly mindful of the way that you are putting out yourself on the internet and just in the world. So having someone take over the identity that you've worked hard for would be a terrible thing, so it's good that you were able to at least--that you came across it. Far too many times I think we don't even find out when our information is used without our permission.Zach: Well, you know, it's becoming more and more commonplace when you hear these announcements of, you know, thousands and hundreds of thousands of passwords were leaked. It's more than common, and it's kind of like we just shrug our shoulders at it because--I think this whole world, like, the tech world and just technology in itself is so big and so hard to wrap your arms around that I think it's kind of easier just to default and be like, "Oh, it'll sort itself out," until you then get some notification that your social has been stolen or something crazy. Then you want to pay attention, but it's--like, there's plenty of, like, "little" things--quote unquote little. They're not little, but little things that kind of sprout up fairly common and often enough that we should be paying a little bit more attention I think.Eva: We should be paying a lot of attention. I think that, you know, identity monitoring is one way that you can help yourself, at least in the financial world, but then paying attention, like I said, to the privacy policies of what you're agreeing to. So at least when someone's doing something wrong, you're able to say, "Wait, I know I did not say yes to this. I know that you should not have this feature turned on on my phone. You shouldn't have any of this information," and sometimes people are using information that they--you know, they're not following the rules that they've agreed to. There have been FTC and Attorney General actions around that, and those are often who you have to turn to when someone becomes a bad actor. You're reporting them to, you know, regulators to help you sort these things out, but the more proactive we can be on the front end I think is going to help us a lot more in the long run.Zach: As technology continues to progress around us, right--I mean, it feels as if technology's almost growing at the speed of thought. Like, it just seems like there's so much happening. There's so many new innovations that are coming across month after month, year after year. As technology continues to grow, how do you see tech and privacy law needing to change and adapt, particularly around things like cryptocurrency?Eva: I think that cryptocurrency is a powerful tool that's still being worked through in some spheres. You know, we know that governments may be reluctant in some instances to give over control of the dollar. That said, where cryptocurrency's in place--and not just cryptocurrency but the actual blockchain, the bitcoin, the technology on which its built--it gives a lot of power in the sense that it provides anonymity. And so when we think of the black and brown community and institutional prejudices that have faced the black and brown communities, we have to remember that sometimes, you know, we can move in a bit of silence through cryptocurrency by trading and having finances and assets that are unidentifiable. It wouldn't be identified through black and brown until the decision to reveal, and that takes up some of the middleman, some of the potential prejudices that can arise when middlemen are involved. So I think there's a power to it, but I also encourage anyone interested in cryptocurrency to really research. Research the company or the type of currency that you're interested in purchasing. Research cryptocurrency itself. Understand the blockchain a little bit more, and do the work before following the fad. I think that that's the biggest--the biggest tip, is to never just follow the fad and, you know, "Someone did it, so I'm doing it too." Make sure that you actually know what you're doing. Know the technology and understand the finances behind it, and also understand the risks when you're doing any type of investment. But cryptocurrency and the blockchain, we'll have a lot more to do in the future I do believe, particularly with the potential uses for it. It can be used for polling and voting and a lot of ways, when we look at the recent elections and how the votes got mixed up we'll say or lost, and, you know, Atlanta and Florida vote issues. I think the use of the blockchain could be a beneficial thing in that you could submit your vote. It's all handled within the blockchain, and no middleman has any say in involving himself in that.Zach: No, I 100% agree. I think that there's so much power in kind of eliminating opportunities for bias, right? So a lot of times when we talk about bias, conscious bias, unconscious bias, a lot of times we try to figure out ways to change the individual, and maybe I'm being a bit of a cynic, but I think, you know, another angle that we could go from is let's just eliminate the opportunity for you to even be biased. Let's just make it anonymous, right, where can. Let's eliminate avenues for folks to be discriminatory, and let's make sure that, you know, where we can, we empower people, and empower the most, like, objective playing fields possible.Eva: Definitely. I think that there's a power in it, and that's because the black community holds so much power, and the brown community holds so much power, and I think that harnessing it and working together could create a very mighty force.Zach: Now before we get out of here, you know, any parting words? Shout-outs? Any special projects that you're working on? Anything at all that you'd like to share with us?Eva: I would--I guess my parting word is that everyone, please read your privacy policies and understand the way that your data is used, and from a professional standpoint I would say to just keep, you know, working hard and moving forward. I think that my career has largely been based on faith and intention, and things seemed to just work out the way that they're supposed to. Every setback has always ended up landing me where I want to be, including--I would say this move was an exciting and scary adventure, but it was definitely worthwhile. So I'd just encourage everyone to find their passion and work hard, and also protect your data. Protect who you are.Zach: Amen. You know, we might need to call this podcast episode "Protect Ya Neck." What do you think about that, Eva?Eva: Right. [laughs] I like that title.Zach: [laughing] Oh, man. Well, that does it for us, y'all. Thank y'all for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast, a Special Series sponsored by the Coalition of Black Excellence. To learn more about CBE check out their website, www.cbeweek.com. Make sure to follow them on Instagram @experienceCBE. Make sure you follow Living Corporate on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, feel free to email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Eva Pulliam, associate at Arent Fox. Peace.

Through our partnership with the Coalition of Black Excellence founded by Angela J. we have the pleasure of sitting down with the founder and CEO of I Love Being Black and Traveling Black, Kumi Rauf. Kumi sits down with us to talk about both of his companies and their collective vision of documenting black life and positivity. We also promote CBE Week, an event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lovebeingblack/https://www.instagram.com/trvlblk/Twitter: https://twitter.com/ilovebeingblackhttps://twitter.com/TRVLBLKFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lovebeingblack/https://www.facebook.com/TRVLBLK/Find out more about CBE/CBE Week here: https://www.cbeweek.com/Kumi’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kumirauf/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach, and listen up. Living Corporate is partnering with the Coalition of Black Excellence, a non-profit organization based in California, in bringing a Speaker series to promote CBE Week, an annual week-long event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement that will positively transform the black community. This is a special series where we spotlight movers and shakers who will be also speaking during CBE Week. Today, we are blessed to have Kumi Rauf. Kumi Rauf is an award-winning businessman with several recognitions under his belt, including being an officer and chair of the National Society of Black Engineers, a recipient of the Urban League Top 40 Under 40 Award, awarded Most Successful App Developer by Novacoast, and collegiate track and field athlete, so he dippin' on y'all. He has shared his knowledge and experience with a diverse mix of audiences via radio appearances, one-on-one seminars, conferences, television, and more. Welcome to the show, Kumi. How are you doing, sir?Kumi: Ah, man, I'm doing great. Thank you for that intro. I think I couldn't have done it better myself. Zach: Well, look, I find that--I find that hard to believe, but I'm also flattered, so thank you very much. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit more about yourself?Kumi: No, I think that was a good summation. My name is Kumi Rauf. I founded the I Love Being Black movement, which I'm sure we're gonna get into in a second, and, you know, everything I do is sort of centered around black positivity. Zach: That's awesome, man. So yeah, let's definitely get into it. So let's talk about I Love Being Black. What was the motivation behind founding that company, and what's your mission with it?Kumi: Okay, okay. So the motivation--I went to school, to college, at a place called the University of California Santa Barbara. They had about 2.7% black people there, and, you know, things would always happen. Like, there were racist occurrences that would happen on campus. Off-campus they had, like, Dress Up Like A Minority parties, things like that. So, you know what, I need to make a statement, and I need to do it in a way that's not tearing down someone else's community but lifting ours up, because what I realized is that I don't think the answer is trying to fix someone else, trying to fix someone else's community. I think the answer is in fixing ourselves and in building ourselves up. So the mission for I Love Being Black is positivity, awareness, and action amongst black people worldwide.Zach: Man, that's beautiful. And it's funny--so you said dress like a minority? So just like in that movie--hold on, don't tell me. It's the movie--Dear White People. Like that movie.Kumi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.Zach: That's crazy, and the funny thing is in that movie, at the end, they show pictures of those real parties, and I don't know if UC Santa Barbara was in there, but they showed a lot of pictures. I know they showed SMU and some other colleges that do those. Man, that's crazy. It sounds as if I Love Being Black is all about, like, pouring back into self, self-reliance, and self-affirmation. That's awesome. So somehow, in spite of all of the work that you've been doing with I Love Being Black, you've also founded and you lead Traveling Black. So talk to us about that company and the inspiration behind that one.Kumi: Yeah, yeah. I mean, with I Love Being Black--so it started with just t-shirts, and that, you know, spun into a huge social media enterprise on Facebook. I Love Being Black--we have about 6 million fans on Facebook, I think 140,000 on Instagram, and so we started traveling to a bunch of different places around the world because, you know, most black people don't live in the U.S. They live outside the U.S. So we started, you know, going through the continent, going to Columbia, going to Brazil. Like, you know, even London and Paris and all kinds of other places like that, doing photoshoots and just kind of documenting black life and positivity in these different places, and, you know, we kept hearing, "Hey, you know, I see all these pictures on Facebook and all that, but, like, how can I go with you guys? Because my friends keep flaking. Each time I try to leave the country, X, Y, and Z." So we said, "You know what? Let's do a pilot trip," and we did a trip to Cartagena, Colombia, and just--you know, just to see if I can actually plan travel for people that are outside of my immediate organization, and it worked, you know? It worked out really well, and we kind of kicked it off from there. We did South Africa next, and then we did Cuba, and we just got back from Ghana.Zach: So that's incredible, man, and it's--to your point about most black people not even living in the U.S., you know, let me tell you a story about me being black and traveling while black. My wife and I celebrated our five-year anniversary. We went to Belize this past May, right?Kumi: Okay. Congratulations, brother.Zach: Thank you very much, man. So we go to Belize, and, you know, I'm ignorant. Genuinely, like, there's plenty of stuff I don't know, but when I go to Belize I was so taken aback at just how, like, everybody there was black, right?Kumi: Yeah.Zach: And they look like--they look like black Americans. Like, they don't--you know what I'm saying? But, you know, if you look at, like, the mainstream media, or you look at whatever, you just don't--you don't see us being portrayed front and center like that, and it was amazing to see, like, us being in a position of being, like, the majority. Like, that was crazy to me. A beautiful experience. It was just crazy, and it was--the other thing that was funny about my time when we were in Belize, we saw some other black folks, some of them who were also from my city, Houston, and just from D.C. and California, and we all just linked up, and it was like a family reunion. Like, we got out there, we having a good time, we're traveling, we're doing our thing, and so I guess--and so I guess my question is, you know, how does traveling black encourage exploration and adventure? And I say that because even just in--'cause I haven't been out of the country many times, but any time I go and I see more people that look like me, it just changes the entire dynamic. It feels--it feels different, and so I imagine Traveling Black kind of has a similar vibe. I'm curious, like, how do you all achieve that, and how do you all facilitate and drive that?Kumi: That's a good question, that's a good question. So what we do is typically we want to bring our money that we have over here and put it in the hands of someone else that looks like you somewhere else. So it doesn't make any sense to me to go to, like, a South Africa and do, like, a safari with somebody that's not black and I'm in Africa. That doesn't make any sense, but you're kind of assuming that you're gonna find all of these black people and all kinds of tourism efforts and stuff like that, but you don't, especially in places like South Africa, you know, Brazil, things like that. You have other people sort of telling your story. So I think that's really important to kind of annotate, because a lot of people in this tourism space, even in the black tourism space, they don't do that. You know? They just--you know, "Whoever shows up from the tourism office, or "These people that we contracted to do this thing is who we're gonna give money to," and I'm like, "That doesn't make any sense if over here we're preaching, you know, spend money with black people and black dollars, black hands type of thing, and then when we go abroad we don't, you know, embody that same thing." So that's something we really, really try to make sure that we do. So our guides are black, drivers are black, photographers, everybody. So I say all that to say this experience that we try to create and curate for people around the world, we try to make sure it's authentic, number one. Number two, we want you to learn a bunch of stuff, but number three, we want you to kick it and have fun too. It isn't just like, you know, open up a history book and, "Okay, on your left you see this, and this date and this time," and all that. Nah, we want to--we want to drink some rum and dive in the ocean and, you know what I'm saying, learn how to do the dances and all of this other stuff. We want to learn all of that stuff. Yeah, and then be safe obviously as well.Zach: Of course. There's a certain level of intentionality that you have to have in terms of driving and centering black identity and black experience, like, regardless of where you are, and so I would never--I didn't even think about that, about the fact that, you know, other people telling your story, even if you're in majority-black spaces, and how--but I can say that, man, when we have people that look like us and who share the same--who are part of the same diaspora involved in that, man, like, the experience is way different. There's just a certain level of community and familiarity and just touch, personal connection that is not there otherwise, and so that's incredible.Kumi: Absolutely, yeah. And, you know, there's this whole idea that, like, Africans don't like African-Americans, and I'm like--you know, I don't know where that started from or who started it and all of that, but I know that I've been to 12 different African countries, and I'm considered family in half of those, and people love me and love us in all of those. You know? They're waiting for us to come back and just go there--don't bring the negative aspects of being from the U.S., you know? Don't bring all that stuff with you. You know, all the ignorance and stuff that we may not even know that we embody. Don't bring all of that stuff, and try to have an open mind. You know, try the foods. Learn something about the language. Be genuinely interested about those people, and they're gonna welcome you with open arms every time.Zach: I 100% believe that. I do think it's easy for us to kind of, like, get in our cynical bag, right? And then, like, make assumptions based off of just stereotypes and things that we've seen, and I also think, man, you know, just as a side note, I do think sometimes, man, like, Fake Woke Twitter be messing us up. Like, we end up kind of being a little too negative. It's like, "Let's just give it a try first." 'Cause when I went out to Belize, it was love everywhere I went. I had a phenomenal time. Like, everything [inaudible] was great, right? And I've heard amazing stories from people who also--they'll travel to South Africa, they'll travel to Zambia, they'll travel to Nigeria and Cambodia. Like, they'll travel various places and see us, right? And have a wonderful time. I think that--so that's a great point. So let me ask you this. Where can people learn more about I Love Being Black and Traveling Black?Kumi: Okay. Definitely you can, you know, touch base with our Facebook page for I Love Being Black or Instagram page for I Love Being Black. Just look up--the short tag is just LoveBeingBlack, no spaces. Just @LoveBeingBlack, and same thing with Traveling Black, and then the short tag is @TRVLBLK. So that's TRVLBLK for Traveling Black, and, you know, we try to post up pictures, and we definitely want to inspire people, you know? Just get that sense of wanderlust, but we want to go deeper than that obviously, and we want to take it into those black spaces and these stories that haven't really been told, and, you know, a lot of times there's more we need to unlearn then there is we need to learn, you know? Because if you don't unlearn these certain things, you know, these things that you may not even know--these stereotypes that you have, X, Y, and Z, you're not gonna be able to learn the correct thing in the future. Zach: Nah, that's so true, and it's interesting because of just the way that American society works. A lot of the things that we need to learn anew we won't really fully grasp unless we go and experience it for ourselves, you know what I mean?Kumi: Yeah.Zach: So that's incredible. Well, look, we're gonna make sure that we have all of your--we'll make sure we have all of the information on Traveling Black and I Love Being Black in the show notes, so for everyone listening, make sure you click--you click those links in the show notes to learn more about that. Where can people learn more about what's happening in 2019? Or rather let me ask you this way - what do you have planned in 2019? What's on the horizon? What are you excited about? What are you excited for folks to see, and what are you excited to share? Kumi: We have lists of--we have a great list of trips that we're gonna run down for 2019. Let me--first, in a month we're going to South Africa. We're gonna be there during the Afropunk Festival [inaudible]. So we're doing Johannesberg, Cape Town. Just gonna have a real good time. South Africa is, like, very near and dear to my heart. If I leave--I live in Oakland, California right now. If I leave Oakland, I'm most likely gonna live in Johannesberg. So we're doing that, and then I think three days after I get home we're going to Cuba, on the Experience Cuba trip, in January, wrapped around the Havana jazz festival. We always try to wrap our trips around some sort of event or festival that's, like, a cultural aspect of wherever we are. So let me see. We're going back to South Africa for the Jazz fest in Cape Town in March, and then I think the trip that I'm most excited about for next year is Ghana, because the president of Ghana dedicated 2019 as the year for the diaspora to come back home, and that's huge. Literally the president.Zach: That's crazy. That's crazy.Kumi: Yeah. Yeah, right? I mean, he's like, "Look, this is the year y'all need to come back home." You know, it doesn't have to be come back home to live and blah blah blah, but that is an option, and once you get there and you look at things and you're like, "Oh, wait a minute," and you sort of realize in your head, "This is an option." I've been to Ghana a few times, and each time I see a different opportunity. I'm like, "All right, so not just on cultural level, but for business, you know?" For setting up shop here. For doing something. For leaving your mark in other kinds of ways. So yeah, we're extremely excited about that trip. That's in August, and then we may introduce a new trip next year to Brazil in November. November is Black Consciousness Month in Brazil. They don't do Black History Month. They do Black Consciousness during the whole month of November, and then the day of Black Consciousness is November 20th. There was this really important figure in their history named Zumbi dos Palmares. He basically was like their MLK in terms of popularity, not in terms of what he did. You know, he was a freedom fighter. He helped a lot of people escape slavery into what they called quilombos, runaway enslaved encampments for free Africans. And, you know, he was caught, and he was killed, but they celebrate that on that day, November 20th, and there's a huge parade, and it's all cultural, and there's drumming and music and speeches and Portuguese, and, oh, man, it's amazing.Zach: Wow, that sounds incredible. So I'm gonna definitely, again, make sure to encourage our listeners to check the show notes so you can stay up to date with Traveling While Black--Traveling Black, excuse me, and I Love Being Black. Like, this is amazing. So before we let you go, any parting thoughts, final words, or shout outs?Kumi: Yeah. I will say that--I think most of what we need to do is just a mental shift. Once we shift mentally, everything else sort of--it doesn't automatically fall in line but, you know, it's a lot easier to be attained, right? So if we stop thinking of Africa as one place, that's a mental shift, right? That's a mental shift, because Africa is not one place. It's 54 different places, you know? It's the continent with the most amount of countries in the world, you know what I'm saying? And they have, you know, thousands of languages and customs and all kinds of different stuff. It snows in certain places. It's hot in other places. You'll have greenery in certain places, and there's--you know, there's a desert in other places. It's got every single climate, and, you know, a vast amount of diversity in the types of people and the things that you're gonna find there. If we start thinking of the different places in Africa like that, I think it's gonna open up a lot of different options. If you want to go on some luxury trip or something like that, they have all that, you know? Go to Zanzibar, you know what I mean? The richest square mile in Africa is Sandton, in Johannesberg, right outside of Johannesberg, you know what I mean? So if you want to do that you can. If you want to go on a backpacker thing and save money, you can do that too, you know? So don't only think of Africa as like, "Oh, we need to go on some sort of missionary trip," or, you know, bring some toilet paper to donate to people and this, this, and that. They're doing a bunch of amazing things. They're on blockchain technology. I'm on a team out of Rwanda that's leading the charge called Africa Gen, you know? So they're doing a bunch of stuff, even some stuff that we're not doing. Sometimes I find technologies over that we don't even have here, and I'm like, "Yo." We just need to learn more about each other and just open up that line of communication, you know?Zach: Man, absolutely. Again, what I'm hearing more and more is just go. Experience. Like, that's what I'm hearing. Well, look, this was awesome. Well, look, that does it for us, y'all. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast, a special series sponsored by the Coalition of Black Excellence. To learn more about CBE, check out their website - www.cbeweek.com. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, and make sure to follow CBE on Instagram at ExperienceCBE. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you have been listening to Kumi Rauf, CEO and founder of Traveling Black and I Love Being Black. Peace.Kumi: Peace, y'all.

We speak with Black Girl Ventures founder Shelly Bell about the lack of diversity and inclusion within the venture capital space and the ways we can work to combat the issue.Find out more about Black Girl Ventures: https://www.blackgirlventures.org/Learn about Bumble Bizz here: https://bumble.com/bizzConnect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTAde: "The fact that African-American founders have limited access to investment has been well-documented, but you might not know that that problem is replicated in the venture capital world too. In recent years, several black-owned or directed VC funds and firms have opened their doors with a focus on minority and women-owned businesses, but as it turns out, many VCs are hitting the same obstacles as the founders they're trying to invest in - access to capital. According to PitchBook, American VC funds raised approximately $40.6 billion in 2016, with this year on course to make 2017 the fourth consecutive year with more than $40 billion raised. But with less than 3% of VC funds employing black [inaudible] investment professionals, only a small fraction of that sum will find its way to businesses owned or run by people of color." This excerpt is from Barry A. Williams' article "One Reason Black Founders Don't Get Enough Funding - Black VCs Don't Either." It explains the methods that entrepreneurs of color employ to support their startups, none of them nearly as effective as their white counterparts. The data doesn't lie. Less than 3% of all VC funding goes to entrepreneurs of color. In a world that is more empowered now than ever before to pursue entrepreneurial ventures, what can people of color do to garner the financial support they need? My name is Ade, and this is Living Corporate.Zach: [singing] Money, money, money... money! Ade: Child, what? [laughs] What are you talking about?Zach: [laughing] What? Listen, today is all about the lack of diversity in venture capital, specifically the reality that there's a huge disparity in the distribution of funds between white and brown and black entrepreneurs. So it comes down to...Ade: Oh, right. Money. Okay, all right. Capital. I'm with you now. Well, you're right. I mean, we live in a capitalistic society. We need money to do anything, so money is the life of startups.Zach: Yep, and you know what? I have an excerpt from an article I want to share. This is from Megan Rose Dickey of TechCrunch called "Venture Capital's Diversity Disaster." Here we go. Quote, "Just 1% of venture capitalists are Latinx. Only 3% are black. White people, unsurprisingly, make up 70% of the venture capital industry, according to a recent analysis by Richard Kerby, a partner at Equal Ventures. Compared to Kerby's 2016 analysis, women now make up 18% of the VC industry versus just 11% back then. At an intersectional level, black and Latinx women make zero percent of the venture capital industry," end quote. So this is talking about the industry, whereas your initial commentary was about VC recipients. But I would contend that the lack of diversity within the industry supports the disparate funding between white and ethnic minorities, especially women of color. Ade: Right. And to be clear, minorities are out here. Like, we are out here pursuing entrepreneurship, and we do seek funding for our startups. I know we've been sharing articles throughout the show, but I have another one. This excerpt is from a Forbes article written by Daniel Applewhite called "Founders in Venture Capital: Racism Is Costing Us Billions." So it says, "In 2016, the Center for Global Policy Solutions reported that, due to discriminatory financing practices and a bias towards companies primarily operated by white males, America is losing out on over 1.1 million minority-owned businesses, and as a result forgoing over 9 million potential jobs and $300 billion in collective national income. Less than 1% of American venture capital-backed founders are black, and the percentage of blacks in decision-making roles within venture capital isn't much better. Pattern recognition has enabled VCs to mitigate risks, but has also limited their profit potential and created an inherent funding bias. This bias stems from barriers to early stage capital, a lack of representation in the investing space, and is perpetuated by systems of racism that destroy opportunities within communities of color." So having read all that, wouldn't it be great if we could get someone, maybe a person of color--a woman of color, even, who has created a non-profit organization specifically built to acquire VC for ethnic minority-owned businesses? That's very, very specific, but, I mean, if we can get J Prince on here, if we can get DeRay Mckesson on here, I feel like, you know, big things poppin'. We can be a little picky. What you feel?Zach: I feel you, and I think you mean our guest, owner of Black Girl Ventures, Shelly Bell. Ade and Zach: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?Zach: [imitating air horns] Sound Man, come on. Drop 'em on in there. Let's go.[Sound Man complies]Ade: [laughing] All right, all right. Still extra. Next up, we're gonna get into our interview with our guest Shelly Bell. Hope y'all enjoy.Zach: And we're back. And as we said before the break, we have Shelly Bell, founder of Black Girl Ventures. Shelly, welcome to the show. How are you?Shelly: Hi, thank you. I'm good. How are you?Zach: I'm doing really good. So look, I feel as if you have one of the most straight-forward organization names out there, but talk to us about how Black Girl Ventures came about and what was the inspiration behind it.Shelly: So with Black Girl Ventures, we work to create access to capital for black and brown women entrepreneurs. It started because I'm an entrepreneur myself. I have a couple of my own ventures. My mom invested in me, and I really hit the ground running in building my t-shirt line called Made By A Black Woman, which fed into me actually starting my own print shop called Misprint USA, and I was grinding so hard at that, but I realized that during the process of me being on my grind I didn't have a community. And so I'm an artist. I've done performance poetry, and so through that I had done a lot of community building. So I'm like, "Hey, you know what? I know how to build community. I know how to bring people together. Why don't we just throw everybody together and give the money away?" 'Cause at this time, a lot of the news was coming out about women not having access to capital. And I'm like, "All right. This is a simple solution." So when I started it, it was really just a matter of bringing people together, everybody throwing some money into the pot, and then us creating, you know, some capital for women entrepreneurs. The first one, I barely even marketed it. We had about 30 women in a house in southeast D.C. We got together. I cooked all the food myself, which I will never do again. [laughs] Yeah, we had about four women pitch. We voted with, like, marbles and coffee cups. Like, I put each person's, like, name in a coffee cup, and then after they did their pitch, we had everybody in the audience ask questions and then vote by using their marble. So we just gave the money right back out in cash at that time. Like, I wasn't even thinking that it would be as huge as it's become. Now here we are two years later, over 20,000 people in our audience. We're in three states - D.C., Philly, and Balt--I'm sorry, in three--in three--yeah, three states, but three cities - D.C., Baltimore, and Philly. We're about to do--in the fall we have Chicago, Atlanta, and then another D.C., and we're in conversation with a lot of the small- to mid-sized cities about coming there next year. We're talking to people in Kansas City. We're talking to people in Durham, in Memphis, New Orleans, Albuquerque, Salt Lake City, because the larger cities we found are some really great, like, validators to say, "Oh, we did New York, we did Chicago, we did D.C., we did Atlanta," but really we're looking at, like, where do people have the most need with the least, like, activity that is culturally censored for them?Zach: That's amazing, and again, I'm just so excited that you're here. You know, I'm curious, what are some of the common misconceptions about venture capital that Black Girl Ventures seeks to clarify?Shelly: Yeah. So common misconceptions about venture capital. Huh. I'm not--like, I'm not exactly sure that I would say there's common misconceptions about venture capital per se. Maybe that it's, like--venture capital has become very sexy, and I think that people just don't understand who should get it, why they give it. Like, venture capitalists want to make money. Like, that's it. Like, the center of the day, the center of the round, how can your thing bring return? And if you are not so hardcore about that on your business, then you're gonna have a long road to go with venture capital. It's not grant capital. It's not a loan. Well, I mean, there's different kinds of deals that can be what you call a convertible note, which is basically a loan and [inaudible] and some other investment jargon, but ultimately you should just know that it's about the returns. Like, can you give return on investment? And fairly quick, you know? But quick in this sense means, you know, five years, three to five years. Like, it's a long game too, but the people want to see that the potential for returns are there. Zach: So in building out Black Girl Ventures, at what point did you realize, like, "Wow, this is a--this is really significant." Like, "This has some serious traction to it?"Shelly: Probably I would say at the beginning of 2017. I had a volunteer team of seven people where we decided to do it quarterly, and the first one we did, it was in March of 2017, and we started getting in applications at that time, and so we got a nice amount of applications with a low amount of marketing. 'Cause again, like, I'm just kind of throwing it out there, my network and the word of mouth being spread. Over the course of the year, just seeing it move and grow and grow and grow and then winning Entrepreneur of the Year for 2017 for [inaudible] D.C. and the people who voted for that. I mean, just like, I think the reaction from the women we serve is really what was caused me to be like, "Wow." Like, "We're really doing something." Like, our Baltimore winner from October of 2017, when she won, she cried. We did South by Southwest, and the girl who won, she cried for, like, 5 minutes, and they're--and the things that they're saying to me is that sometimes this is maybe their first win, is coming into a place where a group of people are supporting you, and, like, a group of people are just there to support you, a space that is created [inaudible] and then an audience of people who are there to support you. So I think, like, as the--as the audience has grown and as our traction has grown and the feedback that we're getting back, I'm just like, "Wow, okay. So we're not stopping this." Like, we're gonna keep going. Yeah, just seeing the reaction from the audience, seeing the reaction from the people that are pitching has been the thing.Zach: So how important--how important would you say resilience is for those who are seeking venture capital and really seeking to engage that space? People who are seeking to gain capital.Shelly: It's everything. I mean, resilience is it. Like, there's nothing else. [laughs] Because you've got to keep pushing. You want to keep refining your idea or your business to get to know where those returns are coming back, and venture capital is not for everybody. So, you know, you could be the person that needs to crowdfund. You could be the person who needs a loan. You could be the person that needs to focus on customer acquisition. Venture capital may or may not be the thing for you. I think it's--again, it's become sexy now because you can get a large amount of money at once, but at the same time, you know, you're building a relationship where you have to--you have to make sure that you're getting ret--that the returns are coming back. So, I mean, the resilience comes when you get a no, you know? Like, a "No, that's not gonna work for me," or a "No, I don't think that idea is gonna bring returns, or "No--" Nos are kind of hard to get when you're in need. So when you're, like, really wanting, needing the money to get to a certain place and you feel like you just can't get it, when you're focused on venture capital in particular, it can be hard, and especially because, like, there's a lot of translation work that needs to be done. There's a lot of cultural misunderstanding between, like, VCs and entrepreneurs. There's still a lot of work to be done on, like, you know, women getting invested in and women of color getting invested in and, like, diversity and inclusion when it comes to people's portfolios, because the pattern that has been consistently matched is white male who can sleep on couches for months and, you know, not eat to build a business, and so people, you know, venture capitalists have traditionally said, "Okay, this is the model for who builds successful companies." I think we're seeing that shift a little bit with the rise in investment in the beauty industry for black women in particular. I think we're gonna see a shift more as more people start pushing out that, like, "Hey, these industries," and even black and brown folks that own tech companies can also be invested in and show returns and that, like, the only pattern--I think we're gonna start seeing or showcasing a new pattern to match. This is one of the things that we at Black Girl Ventures are passionate about, is saying like, "Hey, yes, the white guy that sleeps on couches for months, goes home and just doesn't eat and builds a major tech company, yes, that's one pattern and that has worked, but also it's the, you know, black woman straight out of college who has been working on her idea the entire time. Also it's the, you know, woman of color in general who has, you know, pulled together as much money as she can from her family and her community to put into her idea and is now seeing, you know, 3X, 5X, 10X returns. Like, also it's the beauty business--the beauty industry, also it's the feminine care industry, also--you know, also it's the hair industry. Also it's the child care ind--you know, I think that as we--the health care industry. You know, I think that as we--as many people as we can push out into the open that are doing different kinds of businesses that also can show returns, that also can match up to what VCs are looking for, we can start to create a new pattern for people to match.Zach: So, you know, I wanted to ask this a little bit earlier, but I don't want to end this interview without asking now. So I--what really caught my eye about making sure that we wanted to have you on this show was a blog post that you wrote on Medium where someone reached out to you and said, "Okay, yeah. Black Girl Ventures. How would you feel if it was White Male Ventures?" Would you mind talking about the blog that you wrote in response to that? And I believe it got a ton of traction. Would you mind just talking a little bit more about that particular piece?Shelly: Yeah. So I was on Bumble, the dating app, looking for dates, and I swiped this white guy right, he swipes me right. On Bumble, you know, women have to do the initial greeting, so I greet him, and then he comes back and says, "Oh, well, if I started a company called White Male Ventures, you would go ape[shit?]," and my response to him was, "No, that would be venture capital. Have you seen who's getting it?" And he said some other rude things, but not before I could get it--he deleted the thread, but not before I could get a screenshot of the message. And so I was just--something was just, like, [inaudible] about it, so I did. I went to Medium, wrote the article, posted [inaudible], and then instead of having, like, an emotional response towards him or, like, racism or, you know, all of these kind of discrimination, diversity and inclusion type stuff, I decided to just use it to talk about what we are doing and the work that we do want to see in the world and the work that all of these amazing women's organizations are doing, and I listed the women's organizations in the article. And so I just--I pushed it to Twitter, you know, like any other Medium post that you write, and I didn't--I didn't think twice about it. So I noticed that people--you know, I was getting some traction on it, and Bumble actually tweeted me back, you know? But I'm thinking, "Oh, okay." You know how sometimes if you tweet things, people will say, like, "Oh, thank you," or, you know, "Thank you for your mention," or "We're sorry you went through that," or something like that, so I'm just thinking it's just a regular post. I didn't even look at it at first, and then something was just telling me to look at the post, so I looked at the post, and it is one of the content editors, and she's just like, "Oh, my gosh. I'm sorry you went through this, but we love what you're doing, you know? Send me an inbox message." So I DM'd her my email. We end up--she emails me and says, you know, "We don't stand for this kind of thing on our platform. We're sorry that you had to go through this. We're a woman-owned company, and we see that you're a woman-owned company, and we love what you're doing. We want to figure out how we can get involved with what you're doing. Can we sponsor a pitch competition? Can we see if we can offer mentors? Whatever you want. The ball is in your court." So from there, I'm just--I see the email and I'm almost in tears because I'm just like, "Oh, my God." Like, one, my journey as building this movement, like, I'm constantly figuring out and pressing for corporate sponsors, and, like, now I'm looking at engaging, like, employee resource groups as well because we learned that, through Black Girl Ventures being on internal calendars and being shared internally, that it's actually activating black and brown employees to be able to, like, feel like they can be a part of the community and what other community work they can do. So then I'm just like, "Oh, my God." Like, I've been really saying, like, if we could just start with one really great corporate sponsor, we could push into some different directions to improve some of the cases that we want. So we've been in conversation with them ever since then, and that was about three months ago. So now Bumble is actually--and this will be my first announcement of it, Bumble is our--one of our official sponsors right now for three pitch competitions. They're sponsoring us for the Chicago, Atlanta, and the next D.C. competition, which are all coming up in October. Atlanta is October 12th, Chicago is October 19th, and D.C. will be October 26th. Bumble has a Bumble Bizz side, so on Bumble you can look for people you want to date, you can look for people just for friends, and then you can look for professionals. And so we're being sponsored by Bumble Bizz, which is the professional side, and the awesome thing about it is we're gonna make it so that people can find each other at the event by using their proximity. So they can register for the Bumble Bizz app, and then you'll be able to actually connect with people in the room. It will be the official app for the [inaudible] pitch competitions and hopefully beyond because it's such a great tool, and you can find people that you want to hire, you can find people to mentor you, you can find people who are doing the work that you're doing just to ask questions of. So it's a powerful business, actual professional app on that side.Zach: That's incredible, and definitely shout out to Bumble Bizz. Air horns for that, and you know what? Also, Shelly, what's really incredible is that--what I'm hearing is the fact that you took the time to speak truth to power and not kind of shrink away from one, a frustrating and insulting moment, and you used it for a platform to speak to what you actually, to your point, are doing, so that's amazing. Where can people learn more about Black Girl Ventures?Shelly: Yeah. You can find us at BlackGirlVentures.org. You can also follow us on Instagram @BlackGirlVentures, you can follow us on Twitter @BGirlVentures, and on Facebook it's Facebook.com/BlackGirlVentures.Zach: Okay, that's great. So we're gonna make sure that we have all of that in the show notes as well as the Medium link to that amazing post, and we'll make sure to have the Bumble Bizz info in there as well. Before we let you go, do you have any shout outs? Any parting words?Shelly: Yeah. I wanted to just--I wanted to just mention a couple of our BGV alum who are killing it right now. We have Brittany Young, who has--the name of her company is B-360 Baltimore. B-360 works with kids who ride dirt bikes, 'cause dirt bikes are typically illegal to ride on the street, and she transforms them into engineers by helping them learn how to actually fix their dirt bikes and, like, actually, like, create 3D helmets and some really cool things. She is now an Echoing Green fellow and was just featured on the Afropunk stage for their solution session. We have Miracle Olatunji, who just--the name of her app is OpportuniME, and she's 18 years old. She placed third in our competition. Her web app helps students find opportunities for scholarships and internships, and she just made it into the Y Combinator virtual startup school, which is major. Y Combinator puts out--their incubator, that's where Twitter came from and a couple of others, like Airbnb. Like, your huge apps that are out right now. So I just wanted to mention them 'cause they are, like, doing such great work. And, I mean, there is a ton of other women that we work with and serve that I'm super proud of and rallying for, so shout out to all the BGV alum, and check us out. We'll be coming to a city near you soon.Zach: Shelly, this has been amazing. I just want to thank you again for taking the time to be on the show. We definitely consider you a friend of the pod, and we can't wait to have you back.Shelly: Thank you. This was great. Thank you so much for having me.Zach: No problem. I'll talk to you soon. Peace.Ade: And we're back. Wow, so shout out to Shelly and Black Girl Ventures. They're addressing such a need.Zach: Yeah, and she has so much going on. We really appreciated her being on the show. Like, make sure y'all check out the show notes to learn more about Shelly and everything happening over at Black Girl Ventures.Ade: Exactly. Well, look, up next we're gonna get into our Favorite Things. Join us.Zach: So my favorite thing right now has to be Jamaican food. Sheesh. Let me tell y'all, so good. Rice and beans. Like, just rice and beans. [laughing] Why is it so good? I did not know something so straight-forward could taste so delicious, but it does.Ade: So I have this theory. Stick with me here.Zach: Okay. All right.Ade: That, hands down, pound for pound, dollar for dollar, taste bud for taste bud, the Diaspora has the most flavorful food in the world. Like, the entire African Diaspora put together just, like, will punch you in your taste buds every single time.Zach: I just--I really agree with that, right? I mean, 'cause my two other favorite dishes are Thai food and Indian food. Now, I don't know where they land in the Diaspora, but I know they're brown, right? Ade: Bloop.Zach: Yeah, no, it's delicious, and so shout out to all my real Jamaicans. That's right, shout out to my Jamaicans. [laughs]Ade: [laughing] As opposed to fake ones? Zach: [laughing] As opposed to fake Jamaicans. Shout out to my real Jamaicans out there. Would it be offensive to add some air horns right here?Ade: I do not know. Let's, like, move on from the Rachel Dolezal section. [laughing] But I'm gonna go ahead and oblige your need for your air horns.Zach: Thank you. Sound Man, go ahead and drop some air horns specifically for jerked chicken, rice and beans, beef patties, salt fish. You know what? I'm 'bout to name the whole menu. Sound Man! Just drop the air horns.[Sound Man complies]Ade: [laughing] All right, okay. Just don't run off to Jamaica on me, because I will join you and never leave the beach. All right, so my favorite thing right now actually is a book called So Long A Letter by Mariama Ba. It is one of the very first novels written by a Senegalese woman in French, and it is a seminal work in African literature, particularly written by a woman. It is an account of one woman writing to another--they're both widows--written within the context of Muslim women in mourning, one writing to the other and trying to kind of talk her through this extremely patriarchal process of grief and trauma, and it is--it is a story of sisterhood, it is a story of anxiety, of motherhood, of grief, of independence, of women sustaining each other, and obviously this is something--maybe not obviously, but it's something that appeals to me as a feminist and as a woman who one day hopes to raise strong women and who hopes to, you know, hold my sisters up in the same way. So I'm gonna use the term woes, as much as I dislike the originator there, but I'm certainly gonna get a hard copy of So Long A Letter for all my woes. It is very much a book that lends itself to having a conversation about what it means to have a sisterhood. So that's my favorite thing. [laughing] You went from this high of "Let's eat, I'm 'bout it," and I was like, "Let me tell you about how solid we need to be right now."Zach: [laughing] No, but the juxtaposition is what makes us great. We're like the PB and jelly sandwich of podcasting. I don't want to say of all podcasts.Ade: Okay, but first--but first, I need to know - what kind of jelly are you? This will make or break our relationship. I want you to know this right now.Zach: #JellyBandit. I love jelly, but let's figure it out.Ade: Wow. You think you know someone. Goodness.Zach: [laughs] I love jelly. Jelly is great. Actually in Houston, there's a jalapeno jelly, jalapeno strawberry jelly, and it is amazing.Ade: [air horns going off] #StrawberryJelly. #StrawberryPreserves. #--you are just not [inaudible]. Like, I don't--I don't--Zach: So that is my--that is my favorite jelly though. Like, what is your favorite?Ade: I feel like I'm about to get kicked out the gang for this, but I like fig preserves. Now, hear me out.Zach: Fig preserves are good. I like fig preserves.Ade: Okay, and just like that, you saved our friendship. Okay.Zach: [laughs] That's very funny. Fig preserves are great.Ade: Fig preserves. I have--I made a cornbread once with goat cheese, rosemary and fig preserves, and I know somebody is going to say something along the lines of, "Die, you monster," and I want you to know that it was delicious and I'm willing to take that. I'm going to die on that particular hill. Great. Preserves are great.Zach: So anyway, I do feel as if--again, I feel as if it's this type of repertoire, right? This tit-for-tat, as it were, that makes us special, so I appreciate you.Ade: Oh, okay. [inaudible]. Appreciate you too.Zach: Anyway, [laughs] thank y'all for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Check us out--Ade: You're--Zach: [laughing] All right. Make sure to check us out on Patreon as well. Again, we're Living Corporate, so just pull us up anywhere and you'll find us. That does it for us on this show. This has been Zach.Ade: And I'm Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with full time day trader, Teri Ijeoma to talk about her journey and get her tips pertaining to building financial independence through investing.Learn About Teri here:https://investwithteri.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now yes--of course yes, we're late into the first season--we've introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but every episode is someone's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow more lit--that's right, more lit--than our regularly scheduled shows. Sometimes they're discussions with the hosts we have, extended monologues, or maybe just a chat with a special guest. Today we have another great special guest, Teri Ijeoma. Teri is an educator turned real estate agent turned NPO executive turned educator again turned real estate agent again turned full-time investor. That's a lot of switches. Today, Teri travels the world and invests from the comfort somewhere near the last postcard that you got.Teri: [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Teri, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Teri: I'm great. How are you? Thanks for having me.Zach: Thank you for being here. So I know you love traveling. What are some of your favorite cities?Teri: Oh, man. I think my biggest surprises have been Seoul, South Korea. I thought Korea would be something totally different than it is, but it's just so beautiful. And then Tel Aviv is real. It's like a mix between Chicago and Miami. It's gorgeous. It's beautiful.Zach: That sounds incredible. So today we're talking about financial freedom. I know I set you up in your intro, but what does financial freedom mean to you? And what have you done to move closer to achieving it for yourself?Teri: Wonderful question. For me, financial freedom means not having a boss. My testimony is that I've worked so hard to help other people's dreams come true. I was always the first one in the office, the last one to leave, but then I realized, like, I was helping everyone else's dreams just get bigger, but not my own. And I'd have my own passions on the side, so I'd be doing real estate and helping other people on the side and investing on the side while I was spending most of my time helping other people's dreams come true. So for me, financial freedom is being able to have the money to do what you love when you want to, and that's why I started trading and investing, so that I could trade and travel. Zach: So speaking about investing, what would you say are some of the common misconceptions that are associated with being an investor or actively being engaged in active investing? What would you say are some of the common misconceptions?Teri: A lot of people feel like they're just not smart enough, like they have to be some math major or know numbers to be able to invest, but really you just need to be able to see companies that you like and see trends and go for it. Another big misconception is that you have to have a lot of money, but I think that you should learn the skill when you don't have money so that as you do get more income then you can learn how to make it multiply as it comes in. Those are probably the two biggest ones that I see a lot, people just being scared or thinking they don't have enough money to start.Zach: Okay. Now, I'm not trying to give your sauce away, right? But if you had to give three tips for how folks interested in investing should get started, what would they be?Teri: Of course I'd tell people to take my class because I think taking classes is important.Zach: Yes. [laughs]Teri: I've been trading eight years. In the first seven years,I can honestly say I was just trying to do it on my own and losing money. It wasn't until I took classes and went to school that it actually started--like, started growing and becoming something that I could truly live off of. So I think education is important. Another thing is pick good companies. A lot of people want to invest in penny stocks and things that aren't really that good of a company. You really make money when you invest in valued companies that can give you good returns, and we do have a class on that too, like, how to pick good companies. And then I think the next part is being able to protect your portfolio. I hear so many stories of people who blew up their accounts because they made this big investment that they thought would be the best thing, and then it went down and now they don't have any money left. So I think you need to learn how to protect your portfolio. Like, did you know you can actually put orders in that will get you out of a trade if it goes down? Like, you can automate that so that you can go to work and don't have to think about it. So I think being able to protect your portfolio is important too.Zach: Well, see, this is the thing about when it comes to investing for me. I'm pretty risk-averse when it comes to that space, and so for me I know that I would really benefit from going to some sort of class to formally learn because when I think about day trading, I think about investing, I think about, like, Wolf of Wall Street, or, you know, if I want to go old school, like, Trading Places. I think about, like, very volatile, risky activities, right? So, like, you know, my investments really center around my Roth IRA, my 401K and longer-terms (holes?) that I have, so I definitely believe when it comes to--when it comes to being a little more engaged in that space, I have plenty of--a ways to go, and I would actually venture that a lot of folks who are listening in have a ways to go as well. So, you know, where can people learn more about you? And if I wanted to learn from you about trading, how could I do that?Teri: Sure, great question. So we have a website called Invest With Teri. So investwithteri, T-E-R-I--and that's all one word--dot com. If you go to my website, you can put in your email address, and we'll send you updates of our new fall enrollment. We actually have online self-paced classes, and then for advanced students I have actually one-on-one coaching to help them invest. So I think that's a great place to start. And then just in your comment about, like, 401Ks, I think that's always great to invest in retirement, but a lot of those are only giving you, like, 2%-5% returns, where as the market last year was up 25%. So there was a lot of upside that you missed out on if you weren't actually looking at companies for yourself. So I think we just don't get taught that kind of stuff, and we should be. Zach: No, I absolutely--I agree, and I think, to your point, we don't think about that, right? We're like, "Okay, look. We got this job. Let's just hold on to what we have." We're not necessarily trying to put ourselves out there and really over-extend or expose ourselves more than we feel like we need to, but to your point earlier when you were talking about financial freedom and really being in a position to not have to work for somebody else, what you're talking about speaks to a certain level of intentionality, right? And effort, because it's easy, right--again, I have a 401K and I have a Roth IRA. I'm not shaming people who are in that bucket who are like, "I'm just gonna invest in these spaces." It's just that to really get to that next level of financial independence it's gonna take a certain level of intentionality on an individual level, right?Teri: Exactly, exactly.Zach: So this has been a great discussion. Before we go, do you have any shout outs? Any parting words of wisdom?Teri: Thank you so much for letting me come on the show. I just help people to take risks. Like, you won't be able to get to a higher level if you never take risks. So invest. Like, invest in anything, just something. Take a risk, and you'll do better.Zach: [laughs] This has been great. So this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna make sure that we have all of your information in the show notes, and we'll shout you out to make sure folks sign up. Guys, people, if you're listening to this, make sure you at least give Teri's info a look. She has great resources, great information, and I am positive that you will be happy with what you see, okay? So that does it for us. Thank you for listening and joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Teri Ijeoma. Peace. [winding down sound effect]Zach: Yay. [laughs] Teri: [laughs]Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In our first episode, Zach and Ade discuss the topic of impostor syndrome and welcome former fortune 50 executive, Amazon best selling author, and entrepreneur Fenorris Pearson to share his story. Length: 00:47:30Hosts: Ade | ZachTRANSCRIPTZACH: It's 2011 and I just graduated from the University of Houston (go Coogs!). I'm bright eyed and bushy tailed and I'm scared out of my mind. It's my first day and a large retail company an HR Manager and since I'm an "Executive Team Lead", there's a big orientation with all the other "Executive Team Leads in the region. At 20 years old, I'm easily. One of the youngest managers in the company. I look around the room and I see folks way older than me and seemingly much more comfortable in their own skin. I should be excited. I should be thankful. I should be happy. Instead, I only had one statement seared in my mind. First a whisper, then finally, a clear assertion: I don't belong here. This is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate. ZACH: So today we're talking about imposter syndrome. An hbr article defines it as a collection of feelings of inadequacy that persists despite evidence success. Ade, can you relate to that? ADE: Absolutely. On our website, which you also check out by the way, there is a quick little blurb about the fact that I'm an aspiring software engineer. I knew nothing about code before I started exploring it and I can't tell you the number of times I sat in a room and I was like, OK, I heard the words that came out of your mouth and I'm pretty certainly were in English, but I could not tell you for the life of me what they meant to. There's just this repeated feeling of, I'm in the wrong group. You have you ever had that dream where everybody around you can see you naked and you're not aware until he looked down and realized, oh crap, they're laughing at me. I'm just that repeated feeling of I'm in the wrong room and everybody can see it. Also in like my own job, my current position, I'm always feeling like I'm always hesitant to answer questions even though I know the answer to them because I'm often either the youngest person in the room or the least experience. And I find that despite how confident I might be when it's just me and I know that I've done my homework and I know that I've done all the background necessary, I always find myself like second guessing myself for that one, very brief, split second, and sometimes that's just the difference between somebody else getting the position or somebody else getting an accolade for something that I already knew the answer to. ZACH: That's so real. Speaking for myself, I know that there's been multiple times where I know that I've done the research. I know I've done the homework, I know that I've done everything that's calling for me to do. And yet when I get in those rooms where you have those moments, there's always like the sneaky thing where I'm like, "ah, I really don't this, this whole thing is a sham", right? Like where I feel as if like at any point at any moment, like they're gonna pull back the curtain just kinda like where's it at the end. The one that was a great and powerful Oz. And you look behind the sheet and it's like just a regular dude. And I know for me like that's a genuine feeling of mine, right? I know that this is a relevant topic because even like on Fishbowl, which is like a, for those who don't know, fishbowl is an anonymous posting essentially like think like, um, like twitter, but there's no user names, don't know if it's completely anonymous and even we look across like, you know, when you just look at fish bowl, which I would say the predominant number of users are white folks. They talk about this all the time and like it leads to all types of issues, it's the source of so many different types of stresses and frustrations for them. They'll say things like "I'm really depressed here", and "you know, I really just felt as if anyone was going to find me out", "I really don't feel like I know what I'm doing and everyone else is an expert", and so on and so forth. I mean, I've seen people who are engagement managers and partners and directors, postings like that, right? And so I don't feel like it's necessarily something that's so isolated to me or definitely to you. And I know you've done some research on this. What insights can you share about how common or uncommon the feeling of being an imposter or just how common or uncommon imposter syndrome is? ADE: So we found a research that suggests that up to 70 percent of people, in professional settings report I'm having felt some sort of, um, anxiety related to impostor syndrome. And I know I've done personal research back in my graduate days. I'm on particularly students of color and feelings of inadequacy in school settings, but I didn't really find any that, that spoke to the experiences of underrepresented groups in corporate America. I would venture to say that the present is of those particular groups that are higher for people who are already one of the few where you find yourself being the only black person. The only black woman, the only gay person or the only the only used in the room and I've always wondered what it must be like for people of color to climb any corporate ladder because the higher you go, the less there are of us.ZACH: Straight up. No, you're absolutely right. I mean I definitely agree when you look at the data and I definitely reviewed the research that you shared and thank you for that. It didn't break it down by the "only" one in the room, to the language that you used. It didn't break it down by you know, how present that feeling must be for the only black woman or the only first generation immigrant or like ow much stronger those feelings must be. Because for me, when I think about imposter syndrome, I think about the fact that not only do I feel like this, but there's no one around who looks like me who I can actually have a conversation with either. So I feel like doubly alone, you know what I mean? ADE: Yeah, I do. I mean, it would be great if we had a guest who could speak on their experiences. I mean, they will need to be like, I dunno, executive at a couple of fortune 50 companies they wrote an Amazon bestseller or where does, because that won't be an entrepreneur. ZACH: Oh, you mean like our first guest of the pod, Fenorris Pearson? ADE: Yeah! We're going to get it to her interview with the first guest of our show, Fenorris Pearson. ZACH: Hey, y'all went back and as I said we have for Norris s'mores. Welcome to Living Corporate.!First official show you kicking us off, how does it feel?FENORRIS: It feels great. Feels great, man. Excited. And I'm excited to be a part of this groundbreaking podcast show. ZACH: I appreciate it, man. So you and I have a history. We've, we've worked together. You've been a mentor of mine for years, but for those who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit of your story? Let's just start about how you got into corporate America. FENORRIS: Absolutely. So I come from, I grew up in a family of 10. Seven boys, three girls. Grew up in the projects. I was the first one and they only one want to get a college degree andcertainly our postgraduate degree in business and organizational development. I always aspired, even though it was a pretty good athlete, there was a division one scholarship athlete, student athlete, a lot of success in basketball, I was always inspired to be a businessman. So I, graduated and moved into a corporate America. I always believed in myself, but I know God always has provided grace and favor in my life. So as I entered into corporate America, um, it was one of those things where I had goals, I had certain aspirations to get to. Certain things were more important than anything I wanted to not lose myself, who I am, and who I was as an individual as I aspired and as I transitioned into bigger roles and bigger responsibilities within corporate. So I became, be at the age of 38, the youngest senior vice president, African American executive at that at Motorola. I became a senior vice president of organizational development in Motorola, had over 300 some employees that worked for me around the world. And that was after, at that time I was probably in my... I was 38, but I had probably been with Motorola for about six, seven years. Ended up transitioning from Motorola to go and work for Dale. And I worked for the number two man at Dell who reported to Michael Dell. And that was a huge experience as well too. So before the age of 40, I was a part of two fortune 50 companies that I was a senior level executive and two of the biggest companies in the world before the age of 40. So getting there was an interesting journey to the point where it sparked me to run a book. And the book was called "How to Play the Game at the Top" and that was inspired in my conversation that I had with one of the most senior executives in the world, this guy was the founder and the visionary of a phone called the Razor. Many out there may recall this phone, it was a thin, sleek, they called it the razor and it was one of their iconic phones within this time and I was part of the leadership team, the executive leadership team to develop and put that phone on the market. So am I hitting what you want to talk about? ZACH: Absolutely. This is exactly what I wanted to talk about. I wanted to hear essentially how you got here. And so your story that you're sharing the answers that question. I'm curious if you're talking about these experiences and you're working for these individuals and working at extremely senior levels, was there ever like one specific moment that you realized like, wow, wait a minute, I'm in rarefied air here. Like, this is a special position, like was there a specific moment? FENORRIS: There was two moments that I recall that I'm like, wow, OK, there were two distinct, different learnings from them. The first learning was about me standing up and sticking true to who you are, particularly from a male and from a man's perspective and just about your character, who you are and what you stand for. That story is, there's a, there's a woman tthat I had hired. She was from Kellogg. I brought her on board as a director, but she was extremely qualified and so, and, but she happens to be a minority. She happens to be a female and African American. And her and I at one point were visiting an we were taking on a restructuring of a, of a 14, 15 billion dollar business. And so my job was to begin to do an org diagnostic and assessment of the strengths, the weaknesses, what's working, what's not working, typical diagnostic stuff. And I'm, this young woman, uh, was part of the, um, the team that I would take in and we'll go on and sit down and discuss with an executive. And one particular executive really was not feeling, he time that we had set aside and that we had documented that this is when we're going to meet, this is the nature of this conversation, this is what we're going to be trying to accomplish. What are you doing this time? So it was two of us, myself in this young female who was extremely qualified and competent. And so we get into the office and this man for whatever reasons, in a bad mood. And he is, he apparently had just got back from Europe over London and was tired. But, he was very rude to us and he was extremely rude to me in front of this young African American female and the better, calmer nature of me decided to handle this individual in a professional way because the point, the decision that I had to make was what's more important? Do I continue with trying to move forward with doing this my job? Or do I sit here and let this young female who I just hired a watch me kowtow and belittle myself and lose sense of who I am as a man, forget my job or getting my responsibility just as a man and have this young woman forever look at me as a senior African, "oh, so this is what you have to do in order to be an executive in corporate America." I made a decision at that time that at no point will allow this woman's memory, ah, to be as a man and as an executive, to accepted such disrespect from this senior executive sitting across the table from me. So I said to him, I said to her, I said, I started off. I said, sir, if this is not a good time, um, shall, we can, we can come back and continue this, um, this, uh, this interview. And he was like, no, this is a good time because it's a good time, which doesn't appear to be because I'm the, I'm feeling some tension here. And then so I asked this young woman, I said, "you know, what, could you, could you excuse us?" And I said her name and he said, "no, she can stay here." [Then I said] "As you know, she's, she's my direct report and requesting that she excused herself from this conversation." And so is she excused herself from this conversation. I looked at him, I got up on the edge of my seat and I looked at it across the table and I said to him, I said, "you and I know sir, if you and I were outside of this organization, there is no way you would approach me like that because you would be fearful." I'm six, seven tall, sexy, OK. And he's about six feet. OK. And so, so my whole point to him was that, that, that you wouldn't dare approach me and this manner, and I'm, I'm not going to let this young woman's memory be a of me as a man, as a senior executive that happened to me, a man of color. I'm someone that was just allowing himself to be treated with such disrespect. OK? So, so, so that moment, Zach was a moment that, that changed my career because at this, at this point I was I was a vice president of a business unit, but not of the entire corporation. OK? So at this moment, this man changed his attitude, uh, you know, kind of backpedaled a little bit. I asked for the young woman to come back in. And, uh, we continued to interview. Now, the second aspect that I talked to you about the change when I realized I was in rarefied air, uh, as an, as an executive and Corporate America was when two days later this man calls me up and I'm like, "Oh crap, OK." You know, he's going to be on some, some, some Caucasian man stuff. And he's going to exert his power. He's going to exert his authority and you know what, I may get fired. OK? All right. So cool. So I made the decision at the time, decided to address him and I decided to ask this young woman to, to leave the room that I was willing to suffer any consequence for the sake of keeping my dignity. My mom used to always say, if you don't fall for something, you'll fall for anything. And I wasn't about to fall for having him berating me. And more importantly, have this last impression of this young woman who's at the beginning of her career, I'm thinking that she has to or she has to be a certain way besides just being who she is in order to be successful in corporate America. Little did I know that, uh, when this call came was the call was totally the opposite of what I thought this call was. And so he asked me, he, um, so first of all, his assistant called my assistant and assistant asked me, did I ask my assistant and I have done, was I available? I said yes. I picked up the phone. And um, he said, so interesting conversation Finnaris - he didn't say for "Fenorris" as my name, but he said from "Finnaris". Interesting conversation. So here's what I want to do. I want to, I want you to go on a trip with me. And so I'm like, what do you mean go on a trip? At Motorola, we had all these corporate jets and so we had these corporate jets, and so being on the corporate jet, certainly I've been on commercial airplanes, but I never been on my own private jet. And so, so he asked me to meet him, at our hanger where we keep all our corporate Jets outside of Chicago.And so I met him there and I was lgoing to say, as a lot transpired between the time of him asking me to meet him there and the conversation that we had on the phone. But I'm thinking when I get there, it's going to be a group of people I'm just going off to Sunnyvale, California. Little did I know at the time that he called me. He had just got promoted to be the president, the number two person and pretty much it as running a motor roller or he had just got promoted at that time on the phone call. I didn't know it. So when I get there at a hanger, I'm thinking it's going to be a bunch of the people that's going to be on this jet is just, it turns out it's just him and I. So we get there - and this is a true story. We get on the jet and we're getting ready to take off. So you're, you know, on a jet is, is everything in all kinds of food. So I'm trying to be cool and act Like I've been there before, but at the same time, like this big lobster over there, some shrimp, like, wow, this is nice, you know? I got my leather seats, I got plush leather everywhere, communication equipment, et Cetera, et cetera. So he said, so you're probably wondering why it's just me and you. I said, "absolutely" So we're taking off getting ready to head out to Sunnyvale, California from outside of Chicago. He said, "the reason why I put you on this, I got you on his plane because what want to share with you is something that most of us never talked to you guys about."So two words. "Most of us", meaning mostly Caucasian white men and "you guys", I'm sure everybody that's probably listening to refer it with, uh, you know, Kinda get the meaning of you guys as meaning African Americans or people of color. Never really get a chance to, um, understand how we operate. And so I got on a plane because it's going to be my word against your word. I have no idea how you may react to what I'm about to say to you. But, um, what I want you to know is when I spoke with you and I came at you that I'm at that, um, at that meeting we had, it was all by design. I'm like, why? Wha? What do you mean? "I want to see how you would react to see if you would stand up for yourself. I see so many of you guys out there that are so motivated to be, um, to be, uh, to get ahead, that you will, will allow anything, ah, or had someone to do anything or say anything to you in order to get your stripes. OK? In order to get your where you feel like you belong. Rightfully belonged in. A lot of you guys depend on succession planning. A lot of you guys depend on, uh, the affinity groups like the African American group or the Hispanic Mba group, that those groups are going to allow you all to be in a certain, um, I'd be a part of certain conversations." So as I'm listening to this, I'm like, I can't believe I'm hearing all this. So he's like, "what I wanted you to know is that it was a test" and a little did you know that at that time I saw you got promoted to the president of this business unit, this business. And it happens to be the biggest business unit in Motorola. Motorola was probably about a 55, $60,000,000,000 business. So one of the biggest business units in the world. And I was certain he says he's the number two man in control. And so, um, so he said "what I wanted to do was to see if you will stand up for yourself. I wanted to see because most of you guys to try and aspire in to the next levels, you lose a sense of who you are and what you're all about. Some of you guys even change your voice. You even change your voice." This is interesting coming from, from a white man, this white man, it's assessing and able to have been around enough by people to know. And if we're all real, we all know some people. And just because that to them, just because we change our voice means that we're, we're trying to be like them or not. That's how they accepted. Some of us may talk proper, all right? And so there's nothing wrong with them, but from his perspective, OK. And so this is his thought process, but he continues, "even some of you guys try and change her voice to be in, to feel like you're, you know, you're more accepted with us. What really sparked my interest to have you on my team was that you stood up to me because I'm trying to build a team with this new role that I just got. I don't want yes-people around me and I don't want people to just tell me what they think I want to hear because that doesn't do me any good. "He continues, "I've also been inspired in my life by two African Americans" and I'm like, wow, this is really getting great. Keep in mind we're 30, 40,000 feet up in the air. We're on a plane talking about this is that there's these two African American men. I said, so why me? Why me? He says, "there were two African American men in my life that inspired me, right? What most of my white counterparts don't know is that I grew up poor. I grew up with a single mom. All right? Because of my white male. See me. They see me, they see the wharton school, a business school, they see a harvard, they see all those degrees. But what they don't understand this, that, you know, I had a single mom that raised me. And then so I had two African American men that, that, that, um, uh, sowed some seeds into my life that inspired me to not do bad things because my mom worked all the time. And I was out in the streets getting into trouble and these two African American men on the boxing gym out in New Jersey and they, and they, you know, they just took me in and they gave me, they made me, you help me become more disciplined. And I was so appreciative of that because it wouldn't have been no telling what I would've done." I kind of referred to him as rain man, if anyone ever seen the movie rain man, he was half genius and half crazy. So, so that experience that he had always inspired him to want to do something and give something back to a minority because those two, those two men changed his life to the point where I thought it was bs in down the road, but he even donated money back in New Jersey to named schools a school after this man, after these men. So he put up hundreds of thousands of dollars donated so the school could be named after these two men. So as he's telling me, the reason why we're on the plane is because it's my word against your word and this is stuff that we would never ever talk to you about how, how we do things, how, how things go down, how decisions get made. There are meetings before meetings...that the meetings before the meetings proceed and take decisions are made before we actually get into the meeting that was supposed to be making the decisions and you understand what I'm saying? You guys are never exposed to those things. What I want to know if I want you to, I want you to know someone on my team and what you need to understand that there are consequences for, for that there are, there are good consequences and there are consequences that, that just happened and the light, but corporate. So explain to me what he meant by that is that, for example, he talked to me about the difference between mentors and sponsors. He said, "what I'm offering you is not to be your mentor, but to be your sponsor." A mentor is someone is going to provide coaching, provide guidance, helped you prepare for an interview. A sponsor is someone that's going to say, "that's my guy."I'll give you give you an example. When I left Motorola and went to Dell, typically you would go through an interview process where - particularly people of color - you're going to meet, you're going to go two or three times. I interviewed one time and I interviewed with Michael Dell and no one else and my salary, my sign on bonus. I had a sign on bonus about $300,000. I had a golf membership at a country club out at the place that we built is built the place outside of Texas Dell headquarters since in round rock, Texas and build a 10,000 square-foot home out in Lake Travis. I had everything. OK. But my point here is not on the material things. My point is under the process or how they do stuff and trying to help people understand the difference between the mentor and sponsor. The fact that he sponsored me, only have to see one person. I didn't have to go through all of these interviews, all of these parading me then come back here, come back for the next round of interviews.That's the process that they typically take us through. But how they do, if they bring someone in that they want, they don't have to go through that process. They don't have to go through. And if they do go through several interviews, you can bet it's just, it's just a formality there justtsomething to make it look like it's a competition for the job, but they've already made a decision. That's the difference between mentors and sponsors. And he wanted me to Kinda understand that he was offering me something totally different from what I ever even thought about. I always thought the name of the game was mentorship, right? I always thought the name of the game was, if you know, if you work, you and I, you know, I was smart. I thought if I work harder and smarter than you, I'm going to get promoted. That's not how the game works. We could be the smartest, we could. We know we work work harder because are who we are and how we were raised, but that's still, it's not a deciding factor. And then, so he talked to me about the difference between the electorial vote in the popular vote. I want you to understand that a lot of minorities spend their time on focusing on the popular vote in the popular vote means a, if you think about the election many, many years ago with Al Gore and President Bush, at that time, first time the whole thing ever came into play is when Al Gore won the popular vote, but he did not become the president of this country due to electorial vote, which is a lot less votes than the popular vote. OK? So his whole point from a business perspective is that sometimes we get so concerned on trying to please and make everybody happy, but when you take a step back and look at your career, there's only one or two people that could really influence and impact your career to getting it to where you want to go. And that's what he called instilled like electoral votes. And he said, what I'm offering you is an electoral vote, not a popular vote. So the question that you asked early on was, what were some of the events that that allowed me to know that I was in rarefied air? One, no pun intended, been 30, 40,000 feet up in a private jet. I'm certainly up and rarified air, but a meaningful perspective from a, from a development perspective, hearing how he explained and what he shared. And they said there like they're the reason why I'm sharing this with you on this claim this because you can't record what I'm saying. You can't. If you don't, if you think this is racist or whatever, you can't go and call a Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton. He sent these names for real. I'm serious because it's just my word against your word and it gives you a word and one of the things that you should understand is never, ever dance between two big two elephants. Because if you dance between two elephants, you might get crushed. And what he was saying is, is that you know, if you choose to, if you choose to make this a big deal, then it's going to be my word against your word and I have my word and as I have a whole corporate hr machine that's behind me, and you may, you may get your impact. You may get your story out, but at the same time it's my word against your word and I think we could understand how that would end so that those were two major events that changed my mind. That made me really know that while I was in rarefied air. Amazing stories that has really guided the way that I lead and the way that I now transition from corporate world to a entrepreneur world where I'm the CEO of a company called pursuit of hope. This is a whole different background from, um, from the corporate world and being executive into an entrepreneur and that's a whole different... a segment that you can do down the road since transitioning from corporate to be an entrepreneur and just huge differences there. And how success in one area doesn't necessarily equate to an another area is totally different thought process and that's something that I'm more than willing to share about my experiences. ZACH: Those are amazing stories. I have like two more questions for you. So you know that we're talking about my imposter syndrome today. Essentially that's just a feeling of inadequacy or that you're somehow out of place and a space that everyone else from your perspective clearly is rightfully placed in. So did you ever feel that way? Do you ever. Did you ever feel like you had to battle imposter syndrome? And if you did ever feel that way, how did you manage those anxieties and kind of keep that stuff at bay? FENORRIS: So I think that's a great question. First of all, to be totally candid with you, that question goes back to how I was raised. I never felt like just because I was an African American man that I was less than or better than anybody because my mom always raised me up...my mom used to refer to me and my older brother that grew up together as - and it sounds corny - but, she would refer to us as my Kennedy boys. And so I'm like, my mom is my mom thinking me like the Kennedy Boys. And this is me. I was like eight, nine, 10, 11 years old. My mom, because I knew who the Kennedy boys were talking about, Robert and about John. We're talking about, you know, we're talking about some very successful people. So my mom said that in her own way to make us feel good about ourselves and to make us, you know, where our self esteem about ourselves and she always taught us that we wasn't a better or worse than anyone. And so those, that mindset, um, traveled with me in every aspect of my life and every aspect of the involvement in my career now to proof of that is when I got tested and I didn't know I was getting tested as I told you all about this story because what he had observed was a, I'm a person who was truth in it to themselves and a person who had a tremendous amount of influence in the organization that, uand we'll talk about a skillset. I didn't at that time when this man talk to me with this young African American woman in his office, I didn't have to know the, the corporate a title than the big corporate type of foot on time for the business unit did, but not for the entire corporation. And what I learned that is that you don't always have to have the power or title that title in the organization in order to have the biggest impact on the organization. Because of the fact that I stay true to who I am, who I was, and that I didn't compromise and if I can give the people who are, are aspiring and trying to, um, you know, in a corporate position, they're struggling, they don't know where they're not promoting a shameless plug here, mark my book, "How to Play the Game at the Top", a book that's on Amazon, where people can go and read more new and pretty much you're going to hear the same stuff in it, but a lot more detail about what I'm talking to you guys about your career now and how to progress further, which really comes down to being true to yourself. Never ever compromise who you are just for money or just for to get a title or just to fit in, because it may pay off in the short term, but the thing that I can do and look back at all of myexperience in corporate and say that I'm very, very pleased with the the decisions that I made and why I made them because there's nothing worse than feeling like you gained something at the expense of losing something. ZACH: Man, that's amazing and this is really powerful Fenorris. I really appreciate this man. I was going to ask if you had any plugs but you already plugged your book to Amazon bestseller, "How to Play the Game at the Top". And I wanted to reinforce that because as you know, I read it some years ago. Great read. We will have the things that we've referenced in this conversation on during this podcast. We will have all those things and make sure you actually look at our descriptions. You will see a link for how to play the game at the top in the description. So you can go ahead and check that out as well. Fenorris, I just want to thank you for joining us today. FENORRIS: Hey, thank you guys for being able to allow me to be a part of this. I really believe it's a groundbreaking show. More importantly is just it just thankful to you guys to want to put together a podcast like this here and so you guys could be doing a lot of other other things besides trying to educate andmake people aware of the challenge, challenges and opportunities as they grow in starting career. And so I thank God for you guys having an vision to put together a program like this. ZACH: Man. Thank you for Fenorris. We're going to go ahead and take a break. We come back, we'll have it back in the studio. We'll talk about this discussion and then we'll continue on with the show. ADE: That was a dope interview. ZACH: Yeah, I liked it. ADE: Yeah. In my little story at first I thought to myself like, wow, this is a really, really unique story. Like a great journey. Yet, at the same time, so much of it resonated with my own experiences, like even now in the earliest stages of my career, you know? ZACH: Absolutely. I was glad he was able to make the show really, really interesting stories and I hope he comes back. ADE: For sure. Um, OK. So now let's get into our next segment, which, you know, I kind of enjoy. It's called favorite things. It's where we talk about, um, what our favorite things are these days we can, you know, big up yourself a bit. ZACH: Absolutely. OK, well let's go ahead and get started. I'll start first. You didn't invite me to start, but I will start.ADE: The floor is yours.ZACH: Thank you. OK, so yes. So my favorite thing right now has to be mumbo sauce is now listen. So for those who don't know, for all of my southern gentleman and uh, and women in the audience listening, listen, mumbo sauce is like this sweet spicy sauce that originates out of the DMV and yeah. So, um, our favorite cousin, our favorite big cousin, favorite Auntie, she was on First We Feast, which was hot ones hosted by Sean Evans. Shout out Sean Evans, hot ones. All y'all. Anyway, she's on the show and one of the first things she eats is covered in this stuff called mumbo sauce. And so I'm, I'm taking, I'm tasting, I'm, I'm fast forwarding - first off all I did not taste the mumbo sauce - this is when I first heard about the mumbo sauce. Let's be clear. Then I was like, eh, maybe, I don't really know. Whatever, whatever. Cool. So then you know, because the feds always watching on facebook and I see a mumbo sauce and I'm like, what is going on with his mumbo sauce? So then I see a Facebook ad and it literally said, "Taraji P. Henson endorses mumbo sauce on hot ones with Sean Evans. You like Taraji P .Henson, you should buy mumbo sauce. I was like, golly. I mean I was kind of creeped up that it was so on point and that it clearly, it was watching my activities... but at the same time, I was like, well sang. I mean you, you are right. I, I did like Taraji p Henson in that interview and I am a Taraji P Henson Fan. I do like SOS. Let me buy some. So I bought three bottles of this mumbo sauce. I know, right? And I'm on my last bottle, but listen.. Don't judge me - well you can judge me. That's fine. It's delicious. I actually will put up with the scrutiny. It's great. I put it on everything. Anyway, so I got a two for one. So my other favorite thing right now is this upcoming captain America Comic. I love comic books and so there's a new run starting with captain America and it's been written by the Don Ta-nehisi Coates. So those are like my favorite thing is right now. What's up? What you about it? ADE: So first of all it's Ta-nehisi Coates. I just wanted to hit you with the. Well actually, ZACH: Wow. I'm Embarrassed.ADE: I can't let you be out here just like meg league his name. You know ZACH: that's true though because he is a hero of mine. I don't even know how to say his name.. It was a great point. . ADE: All right. Um, that's random by the way. I want you to know that that's like the weirdest. "Oh yeah. By the way, I'm shouting out mumbo sauce for the week." So my two favorite things this week and I don't know why we're sticking to two, but it's probably for the best because I'm indecisive. So currently actually, literally, you know how when you're on the Internet and be like, what's to the left or the right of you to the left of me is this book, I don't know if he can hear it. It's called a children of blood and bone by telling me it. I mean, um, and as a voracious reader, as a long-time lover of the written word, um, I can tell you right now that she could have all of my clients, like she can literally have all of them every last day. Um, you know, why? Because this will, I can write her booty off. I'm reluctant to even say, booty. ZACH: This is a clean show. So keeping going. ADE: Yes my mom may be listening to this. But yeah, like if you're looking for a new literary suggestion, if you need a new book, if you are a consultant or you're traveling for days out the week and you need a book to take on the plane with you, it might really only last you depending on how fast you read two trips, but it's absolutely worth it. I think my second favorite thing is I've been sick this week and anyone who knows me actually noticed that I have a deep and abiding love of, but it's just like sky rocketed to the top of last of the favorite things this week because my word is good but it is so good and I was down for the count but you know, fa. And since your tea really held me down so it doesn't have to things for the week. ZACH: Do you have any shout outs? ADE: Yes. Um, so shout out to us first of all because I feel like we're dope. We put an amazing thing together and even if you know, this is just us talking to ourselves. This is still like one of the dopest projects had been on. Yeah, we put this whole thing together in less than a month. Bask and how amazing that is. ZACH: I feel the exact same way that I was going to be my shout out to like, shout out to us straight up. We've got a team of five and like they're all going to be on the show. They're all gonna be, they're all leading and participating in like heavily involved because it takes a lot to get this machine up and going. It's all. ADE: One more shout out, one more shout out. I have a new nephew in my life, um, because name is Haleem and he is the absolute, like the brightest star in the night sky right now and I'm just so proud and so happy to have him at the moment. ZACH: No, no, that's dope. That's dope. You know what, in fact, let me go ahead and shut out my nieces and nephews. We can go ahead and put them on a shout out to my nephew Aaron and then shout out to my niece Alayna. They are absolutely wonderful. So, uh, yes, that will actually be the Hashtag for this show. #auntieuncle swag. So thank you all for joining us. My name is Zach.ADE: And I'm Ade.BOTH: Peace.

Thank you for joining us for our 2nd Cabral HouseCall of the weekend! I’m looking forward to sharing with you some of our community’s questions that have come in over the past few weeks… Let’s get started! Megan: Hi Dr Cabral, as always, thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question. I wrote in a few weeks back about my 10 year old son and how we healed his leaky gut which in turn eleviated the eye tics he was having. His most recent Nutreval showed the yeast was elevating some again. We are back on the biociden and the biofilm buster. When you answered my first question about why the yeast returned, you explained how we have to get rid of the bad yeast and replace it with the good yeast. Makes total sense. We had stayed away from probiotics that have saccharomyces in them because it always caused his symptoms to flare. At first I thought the flare was because yeast was his highest sensitivity in the IgG. I realize the sensitivity is to the bad yeast but my question now is could the flare be from the saccharomyces (even though they are the good guys) or would the flare simply occur because we were adding the good guys while there were still too many guys which means too much yeast all together? Thank you so much for sharing with us each day, you are such a blessing. –Megan (Continued) Hi Dr Cabral, I just sent in a question yesterday about my 10 year old son and the sacchromyces. I am realizing I may not have posed all of my question clearly so I'm adding on, and I'm so so sorry if this makes it confusing for you. Please feel free to copy and paste for the purpose of your house call. As I mentioned in yesterday's question my sons eye tics used to flare when I would give him probiotics with saccharomyces in them, but what I didn't mention was he was always totally fine with probiotics that didn't include the saccharomyces. His highest sensitivity on the IgG was to yeast. I realize that's the bad yeast and saccharomyces are the good yeast but why do the good cause a flare in symptoms? Is it simply because I added the good before getting rid of the bad? I guess my real question is why would he have been ok on probiotics that didn't include saccharomyces but have a hard time handling the ones that do have them? Is it as simple as too much yeast all together? So maybe when we rid the gut of the bad yeast he won't flare when we add the good? I've avoided the saccharomyces due to the previous flare in symptoms but am now learning that we need to be replenishing the good to keep the bad out! Thank you thank you thank you for sharing all of your incredible knowledge with us. I have the highest respect for you and what you do and can not begin to tell you how much I have learned and how our family's health has changed for the better since we were introduced to you and your incredible podcast. You are a gift to us. Megan PS I again apologize for the mistake and having to submit the same question twice, but I am interested to hear what you have to say about why the saccharomyces in particular cause a problem for him and I left out of the first submission. Eliana: I love your podcast, it is so informative! I wanted to ask you about my workout program split. I typically do this kind of 5 day split: legs, arms, cardio and abs, back and chest, shoulders and cardio. Basically, I lift 4-5 days a week and get my cardio in either on the same day or on alternating days. Is this too much lifting? I have been doing it for awhile now and have enjoyed it, but I was listening to your recommendation about 3 days of resistance training per week. Thank you! Tyler: Hi Dr. Cabral, I know you have a background in body building and personal training and am looking for advice in regards to putting on more muscle. I am a 25 year old former collegiate athlete and am very lean but am looking to put more mass on in the safest way possible. I eat predominately vegan and GF with some wild fish and eggs. I work out 3-4 days a week and do a combo of lifting, swimming, and hatha yoga. I am 6’1” and 182 lbs. I have read on the importance of ingrsting protein shakes before and after workouts as well as BCAAs pre, during, and post workout for anabolic muscle growth. Do you have brands that you recommend for vegan protein (I do your Nutritional Support Powder in smoothies in the morning) and BCAAs? Or are they even necessary? I appreciate your insight. Thanks, Tyler Anthony: Hi Dr. Cabral, What are your thoughts on MRET water activators? Your products and podcasts have become a very positive part of my life, thank you for sharing your knowledge. Sincerely, Anthony James: Is a kenogentic diet good for you  Zach: What's up Doc, writing in for my 27 y/o girlfriend who has recently been to the "doctor" because she was having allergic reactions (tingling itchy lips, redness around the lips, and breakouts) whenever she ate certain foods. She's tired all the time, never seems to have energy to do anything active, and could lay on the couch all day. We recently (within the last year) went vegetarian, and we limit dairy and eggs as much as possible, but this hasn't seemed to help with the issues she's having. She has had allergy problems (histamine issues) her whole life and found out she was allergic to nickel, as well as many different pollens/grass/trees when she was younger. About a year and a half ago she had a psoriasis "patch" show up on the back of her neck on her hair line, during a stressful period at work. It went away after she was prescribed some cream for it, but it bothers her randomly. Basically she's always had skin issues, and her mother and grandmother have thyroid issues that we now know have been passed to her. Here are the results of her first blood test...only going to give you what was "out of range" as well as her thyroid numbers. T3 uptake - 25.9 T4 - 8.1 TSH - 8.32 BUN - 5 CALC/BUN/Creatine - 7 On a food/skin prick test she was "allergic" to almonds, cherries, hazelnut, soy, and green peppers. I know she needs to do an IgG food sensitivity test, but unfortunately we can't afford that and insurance won't cover it. She cut out those foods, and had her blood work taken about a month and a half later. These were her results the second time: Free T3 - 3.2 Reverse T3 - 14.5 Free T4 - 1.11 TSH - 5.07 Thyroid peroxidase AB - 130 IU/ML Thyroglobulin AB - 6 IU/ML Positive for ANA ANA titter 1:1280 Cholesterol - 212 Calculated LDL - 127 So we know she has hypothyroid and an auto immune disorder. I believe its from some form of intestinal permeability (IBS, Leaky gut, etc) but I also think she has high levels of heavy metals, as she's always putting stuff on her skin/hair whether its make-up, hairspray, or dry shampoo. I've told her she needs to cut out gluten and dairy for sure, but what do you recommend for her as far as the next step in testing, diet, detoxing, and overall lifestyle changes? I just ordered a 21 day detox from your store...I'm going to start her on a 7 day detox whenever that comes in, and hopefully have her doing a 21 day detox in January. If money weren't an issue, after the IgG test I'd have her doing a heavy metal detox, candida/SIBO/yeast protocol, and then start rebuilding her gut. What do you think Doc? Thanks for everything you do. I listen to you daily, and I pass your podcast on to anyone and everyone because theres isn't a person it wouldn't help. If you ever want to take someone under your wing and create the next you, you have my email. ;] But then again, you're already creating more of us like you everyday! Thank you sincerely for the knowledge you pass along. Keep it up! -Zach Thank you for tuning into this weekend’s Cabral HouseCalls and be sure to check back tomorrow for our Mindset & Motivation Monday show to get your week started off right! - - - Show Notes & Resources: http://StephenCabral.com/667 - - - Get Your Question Answered: http://StephenCabral.com/askcabral - - -  

Bruce: Welcome to another episode of Whitetail Rendezvous. This morning, we have a really special guest, Zachary Overman — he goes by Zach — from Southeast Kansas. He runs a cow cattle [SP] operation, plus he’s very involved with New Generation Outdoors. Zach, welcome to the show. Zach: Thank you for having me, Bruce. Bruce:…

Bruce: Welcome to another episode of Whitetail Rendezvous. This morning, we have a really special guest, Zachary Overman — he goes by Zach — from Southeast Kansas. He runs a cow cattle [SP] operation, plus he’s very involved with New Generation Outdoors. Zach, welcome to the show. Zach: Thank you for having me, Bruce. Bruce:…

Subscribe on iTunes ( https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/plug-and-play-podcast/id882069484?mt=2 ) Subscribe via RSS ( http://www.podcastgarden.com/podcast/podcast-rss.php?id=3706 ) ******************************* What To Expect In This Episode: ******************************* This week Tim finds an interesting book at his kids book fair, while Zach talks sports. The guys talk over there games of the week, some to mention are Sniper Elite III, Toki Tori 2+ ( http://66.147.242.93/~engagin6/plugandplaygamer/2016/02/27/toki-tori-2-an-unlikely-hero/ ) , Mario Kart 7, and Dying Light to mention a few. The guys talk about what they think of them and the others. Tim continue TechTalk with the ThingCharger ( http://66.147.242.93/~engagin6/plugandplaygamer/2016/02/26/episode-81-tech-talk-thingcharger/ ) and the guys give away an copy of Rocket League for the Xbox One! This and so much more make this episode one of the better ones SO plug in and enjoy! -------------------------- Items Discussed This Week: -------------------------- ( http://www.plugandplaygamer.com/2016/02/27/plug-and-play-ep-81-super-russian-roulette/7fdf8245/#main ) ( http://www.plugandplaygamer.com/2016/02/27/plug-and-play-ep-81-super-russian-roulette/2015-11-27_00002/#main ) ( http://www.plugandplaygamer.com/2016/02/27/plug-and-play-ep-81-super-russian-roulette/1322093094mario-kart-7-logo/#main ) ( http://www.plugandplaygamer.com/2016/02/27/plug-and-play-ep-81-super-russian-roulette/crashlands/#main ) ( http://www.plugandplaygamer.com/2016/02/27/plug-and-play-ep-81-super-russian-roulette/dungelot-droid-you-review-it/#main ) ( http://www.plugandplaygamer.com/2016/02/27/plug-and-play-ep-81-super-russian-roulette/dyinglight/#main ) ( http://www.plugandplaygamer.com/2016/02/27/plug-and-play-ep-81-super-russian-roulette/header-2/#main ) ( http://www.plugandplaygamer.com/2016/02/27/plug-and-play-ep-81-super-russian-roulette/sniper-elite-iii/#main ) ( http://www.plugandplaygamer.com/2016/02/27/plug-and-play-ep-81-super-russian-roulette/tokitori2scr_003-large/#main ) Tech Talk: ---------- ThingCharger ( http://66.147.242.93/~engagin6/plugandplaygamer/2016/02/26/episode-81-tech-talk-thingcharger/ ) Tasty Brews Of The Week: ------------------------ Breakside Bourbon Barrel Salted Caramel ( http://66.147.242.93/~engagin6/plugandplaygamer/2016/02/25/episode-81-tasty-treat-breakside-bourbon-barrel-aged-salted-caramel-stout/ ) KICK IT! -------- Zach – Thank you For Playing ( https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1372561818/bring-thank-you-for-playing-to-theaters-screens-wo?ref=hero ) Tim – Super Russian Roulette ( https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/batslyadams/super-russian-roulette-a-new-party-game-for-the-ne?ref=HappeningNewsletterFeb2316 ) --------------------- Question Of The Week! --------------------- *“What have YOU been playing recently?* *“* ---------- Contact Us ---------- If you want to get in touch feel free to in any of these manners. ( http://www.plugandplaygamer.com/2016/01/23/plug-and-play-ep-76-final-dream-drop-prologue-recoded-hd-remix-7-6/facebook-icon/#main ) ( http://www.plugandplaygamer.com/2016/01/23/plug-and-play-ep-76-final-dream-drop-prologue-recoded-hd-remix-7-6/twitter-icon/#main ) ( http://www.plugandplaygamer.com/2016/01/23/plug-and-play-ep-76-final-dream-drop-prologue-recoded-hd-remix-7-6/ycogjae7i/#main ) ( http://www.plugandplaygamer.com/2016/01/23/plug-and-play-ep-76-final-dream-drop-prologue-recoded-hd-remix-7-6/instagram-logo/#main ) *Email Questions To* mail@plugandplayproduction.com